# PS4 & XONE CPU Architectures & Models Examined



## Rydian (May 24, 2013)

Out-of-order, _base architecture is from 2010_, 28nm fabrication process, has some performance/complexity tradeoffs to reduce power consumption and die size (down to 3.1mm^2 from 4.9mm^2) as Jaguar is designed to give tablets a big performance increase, more instructions than previous low-power models (SSE4.x, _hardware AES_ and more), _increased floating-point performance over Bobcat_, and AMD claims ~15% instructions-per-clock gains over bobcat.

So from the Jaguar architecture, AMD is building two main cores.

Kabini is for the desktop market and there's already model specifications out there, all with "AMD HD 8xxx" GPUs integrated.  The 8xxx series supports Directx 11.1, OpenGL 4.3, and OpenGL ES 3.0 (insert Dolphin mention here).  The current models do not have Turbo enabled, though Jaguar itself supports it.  TDP is 9-25W.


Temash is the second core built off Jaguar, and created for low-power environments.  TDP is 3.9-9W, one of the publicly-available models will have Turbo (can clock up to 1.4ghz from 1.0), and Temash can be dual or quad-core.
As for the specific models and setups that the PS4 and XONE are using, both of them are using 8 core setups... which means that both of them are using _two Jaguar units_, a multi-CPU setup (rarely seen outside servers/farms and the failed Skulltrail).  Since sharing data and processes across two different CPUs is a different and more taxing/limiting process than sharing across cores on one physical CPU, it seems that one of the four-core CPUs will be used for the main program and/or games, with the other four-core CPU used for overlays, background processes, possibly additional hardware control, etc.

And here's the chart most people have more interest in...



The architecture used currently clocks up to 2.0ghz, most rumors point to clocks of 1.6ghz for both the PS4 and XONE.  _The PS4 and XONE seem to have similar or even the same CPU specs_, but as we've already heard the PS4's going to be using way-higher-clocked RAM, and 50% more GPU cores.

If we knew the specs for the various AMD HD 8xxx cores then we could possibly figure out the closest CPU models for the PS4 and XONE and fill in the missing specs on both sides, but that info doesn't seem available just yet as the cores only commercial launched yesterday, it'll take time for the CPU-Z and GPU-Z databases to mark all the exact differences between the models... and that also assumes that the PS4 and XONE would be using the integrated GPUs and not a separate dedicated chip (the XONE motherboard appears to have no expansions cards so the GPU is either the on-die CPU one or somewhere else on the motherboard).

Also for anybody that's still holding out hopes for 360 BC on the XONE...


> The move away from PowerPC to 64-bit x86 cores means the One breaks backwards compatibility with all Xbox 360 titles. Microsoft won’t be pursuing any sort of a backwards compatibility strategy, although if a game developer wanted to it could port an older title to the new console. Interestingly enough, the first Xbox was also an x86 design - from a hardware/ISA standpoint the new Xbox One is backwards compatible with its grandfather, although Microsoft would have to enable that as a feature in software - something that’s quite unlikely.







Jaguar Source



PS4 & XONE Source



Also here's my obligatory "Consoles are just pre-setup desktops with a locked OS" line.


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## Maxternal (May 24, 2013)

Soo, the XOne is just an underpowered PS4 with more fees attached?
Why would I want this thing again?

It needs some REALLY good exclusives to attract any customers.


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## WiiUBricker (May 24, 2013)

MS wants the Xbox One to be an all-in-one system, eliminating everything in the living room but the Xbox One and yet they force users to use the Xbox 360 along with the Xbox One. All-in-one, not so much.


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## Celice (May 24, 2013)

Maxternal said:


> Soo, the XOne is just an underpowered PS4 with more fees attached?
> Why would I want this thing again?
> 
> It needs some REALLY good exclusives to attract any customers.


If it costs $100 less and the two systems continue to share, like, 80% of their total game library (withholding exclusives), I don't see why someone wouldn't, so long as the games aren't perpetually priced as high as possible (Xbox is looking a lot like how Origin...).

I'm actually super interested in what the launch prices will be. If they're high enough, it might end up that getting a gaming PC would be more economic than going with a dedicated console. Sony at least is looking to offer exclusive games worth getting on their systems.


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## Rydian (May 24, 2013)

WiiUBricker said:


> MS wants the Xbox One to be an all-in-one system, eliminating everything in the living room but the Xbox One and yet they force users to use the Xbox 360 along with the Xbox One. All-in-one, not so much.


I don't have an XBOX 360.

Is there something wrong with me?


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## Sakitoshi (May 24, 2013)

Rydian said:


> I don't have an XBOX 360.
> 
> Is there something wrong with me?


not at all, all what you need is a PS3 and a tuner(all tv's have it conveniently integrated) for have a multimedia center that plays bluray, digital movies, music and AAA games, you can add a Wii(U) for retro gaming, also if you want digital tv, providers give you a digital box when you purchase his services, and with a free remote control!! no need to talk to your electronics!!!.


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## WiiUBricker (May 24, 2013)

Rydian said:


> I don't have an XBOX 360.
> 
> Is there something wrong with me?


Nope, you passed the health check. Can't say this about the 77.2 million Xbox 360 buyers yet.


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

As far as I know, both CPU's have been customized by AMD - comparing stock values is a little bit of a stretch since we don't know what kind of add-ons Sony and Microsoft chose for their versions. All we know right now is that both are based on AMD Jaguar, but by itself that doesn't mean much.


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## chartube12 (May 24, 2013)

Maxternal said:


> Soo, the XOne is just an underpowered PS4 with more fees attached?
> Why would I want this thing again?
> 
> It needs some REALLY good exclusives to attract any customers.


 
So was partially the 360. didn't you read how microsoft paid IBM for their part of the research used to make the ps3, to make the 360? I posted it back when I first joined.


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## Rydian (May 24, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> As far as I know, both CPU's have been customized by AMD - comparing stock values is a little bit of a stretch since we don't know what kind of add-ons Sony and Microsoft chose for their versions. All we know right now is that both are based on AMD Jaguar, but by itself that doesn't mean much.


The sources include an XONE teardown and info from suppliers, which is why I included the actual numbers.


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

Rydian said:


> The sources include an XONE teardown and info from suppliers, which is why I included the actual numbers.


'Amma just saiyan.


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## Rydian (May 24, 2013)

Some numbers in the PS4 are missing due to the lack of a physical teardown, though.


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## Sakitoshi (May 24, 2013)

chartube12 said:


> So was partially the 360. didn't you read how microsoft paid IBM for their part of the research used to make the ps3, to make the 360? I posted it back when I first joined.


this...
the X360 cpu is a beta version of the PS3 Cell, Microsoft rushed the launch of his console and used the beta stage cpu even when was poor version of that hardware, but in that version of the consoles war the X360 has a better GPU that was easy to program for developers. the PS3 RSX is not as powerfull as the X360 ATI card, but the Cell can handle all that the RSX can't and help in the rendering process, that's why ports sucked in the other console when where fully developed on one then ported to the another, like Bayonetta and Final Fantasy XIII.

now is a very similar scenario, only that the PS4 has more powerfull GPU, by the rumors anyway.


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## The Milkman (May 24, 2013)

So Rydian, would this mean next gen games would be able to run on PC set ups with the same specs? Or is there some kind of super optimization that has to be done?


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## FAST6191 (May 24, 2013)

If it is two dies I wonder if things will be merged onto a single one in later life like some of the server chips. We have already seen marginally variable devices hit and refinements made but this could be quite interesting.

The low power stuff caught me a bit off guard though, it seemed like consoles were heading higher and higher there for a while.


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## Rydian (May 24, 2013)

The Milkman said:


> So Rydain, would this mean next gen games would be able to run on PC set ups with the same specs? Or is there some kind of super optimization that has to be done?


They wouldn't be for the same OS so they'd need to be virtualized at the least, emulated at the worst.

EDIT:


FAST6191 said:


> The low power stuff caught me a bit off guard though, it seemed like consoles were heading higher and higher there for a while.


Well this is "low TDP" in comparison to PC stuff.


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## Gahars (May 24, 2013)

There's so many words I don't understand here. Can't we just say it's pixie dust and call it a day?


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

Sakitoshi said:


> *the X360 cpu is a beta version of the PS3 Cell*


...the two processors are nothing alike in the grand scheme of things? Work on the Cell began back in 2001 and it was backed by Sony, Toshiba and IBM themselves, the idea was to create a central processing unit supported by specialized cores around it, hence the PPE+SPE combination.

Microsoft took no part in its creation or design - the Xenon CPU cores are merely based on the modified PPE. It doesn't make it a Cell processor or its _"beta"_ - the PPE is just a normal PowerPC core. The whole point of the Cell was the introduction of the SPE cores, not the central PPE.


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## chartube12 (May 24, 2013)

^^^^^^^^^^^

I think the point he was making is the 360's cpu is it based on unrefined and unfinished work. The rest of his statement is dead on of what happened with the 360.


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## kehkou (May 24, 2013)

Handheld = Designed for lower power consumption to conserve battery -*YAY!*

Console = Designed for lower power consumption to*...I don't know why. Its connected to mains power! Overclock the hell out of it for Christ sake!*


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## BlackWizzard17 (May 24, 2013)

Boy if the ps4 is really 50 percent more powerful than the xbox one than that means most third party games will go to ps4 or the games would run better because it is easy to program for


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

BlackWizzard17 said:


> Boy if the ps4 is really 50 percent more powerful than the xbox one than that means most third party games will go to ps4 or the games would run better because it is easy to program for


More like _"Multiplatform games will be gimped to support the XBox One (or worse, the Wii U) and will simply be smoother on the PS4 wheras exclusive PS4 titles will mop the floor with their competition from a technological standpoint"_ - third party sort of likes to release their games of as many platforms as possible to maximize profits.


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## tronic307 (May 24, 2013)

Xbox One=Xbox Done.  

Can't wait to try that shiny new controller on Steam, though.


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## heartgold (May 24, 2013)

I heard that PS4 is actually 66% more powerful than Xone as they restricted the GPU only 90% for gaming, 10% for OS.

Gets worse for Xone.


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## JoostinOnline (May 24, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> More like _"Multiplatform games will be gimped to support the XBox One (or worse, the Wii U) and will simply be smoother on the PS4 wheras exclusive PS4 titles will mop the floor with their competition from a technological standpoint"_ - third party sort of likes to release their games of as many platforms as possible to maximize profits.


You could say the same thing about the PS4 vs a gaming PC.  PC standards are always increasing, where as the current consoles will be stuck where they are for the next 5+ years.

The X1 is going to be fine.


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## FAST6191 (May 24, 2013)

kehkou said:


> Handheld = Designed for lower power consumption to conserve battery -*YAY!*
> 
> Console = Designed for lower power consumption to*...I don't know why. Its connected to mains power! Overclock the hell out of it for Christ sake!*



Electricity prices are not cheap*, given people are already moaning about the xbone's appearance (size is a non issue) I doubt they would take one that cooled things properly let alone cooled things properly at at higher energy draw and given heat exacerbated failure was responsible for failures in all three consoles last time (and many similar devices) it could be a good move.

*in general but given people are also doing things like installing monitors to measure their usage.....


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> You could say the same thing about the PS4 vs a gaming PC. PC standards are always increasing, where as the current consoles will be stuck where they are for the next 5+ years.
> 
> The X1 is going to be fine.


Never said it won't - I said that games throughout the generation will be gimped to support it.


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## Deleted_171835 (May 24, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> More like _"Multiplatform games will be gimped to support the XBox One (or worse, the Wii U) and will simply be smoother on the PS4 wheras exclusive PS4 titles will mop the floor with their competition from a technological standpoint"_ - third party sort of likes to release their games of as many platforms as possible to maximize profits.


Talk about hyperbole. The PS4 may be more powerful than the Xbox One but it really isn't that big of a difference. For multiplats, it'll mostly be miniscule differences like slightly improved framerates and a few textures here and there being better.


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## kehkou (May 24, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Electricity prices are not cheap*, given people are already moaning about the xbone's appearance (size is a non issue) I doubt they would take one that cooled things properly let alone cooled things properly at at higher energy draw and given heat exacerbated failure was responsible for failures in all three consoles last time (and many similar devices) it could be a good move.
> 
> *in general but given people are also doing things like installing monitors to measure their usage.....


I wouldn't know. The power company here charges 100USD per month despite usage.


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## JoostinOnline (May 24, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Never said it won't - I said that games throughout the generation will be gimped to support it.


I understand what you're saying, but we should remember that multiplatform games have ALWAYS been gimped.

My comment about it being fine was more directed at tronic307.


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## chartube12 (May 24, 2013)

kehkou said:


> I wouldn't know. The power company here charges 100USD per month despite usage.


 
Seriously? Is Solar power, wind or other alternative(s) powering your area? Cause I have never seen electric stay the same despite usage.


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

soulx said:


> Talk about hyperbole. The PS4 may be more powerful than the Xbox One but it really isn't that big of a difference. For multiplats, it'll mostly be miniscule differences like slightly improved framerates and a few textures here and there being better.


Uhm, 33% in GPU computing power alone, 50% difference in performance when you add GDDR5 vs. DDR3 to that is _not_ a small difference. It may be now, but 5 years down the line it won't. 

Then again, this is all raw data, not actual benchmarks. It doesn't take into account OS performance or the SDK's - things may vary once the actual hardware is released.


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## ForteGospel (May 24, 2013)

kehkou said:


> Handheld = Designed for lower power consumption to conserve battery -*YAY!*
> 
> Console = Designed for lower power consumption to*...I don't know why. Its connected to mains power! Overclock the hell out of it for Christ sake!*


underclock it so it won't get damaged and will last longer



Foxi4 said:


> Uhm, 33% in GPU computing power alone, 50% difference in performance when you add GDDR5 vs. DDR3 to that is _not_ a small difference. It may be now, but 5 years down the line it won't.
> 
> Then again, this is all raw data, not actual benchmarks. It doesn't take into account OS performance or the SDK's - things may vary once the actual hardware is released.


 
Won't make a damn difference, for multi plat games going by Microsoft policy that they won't release a game that has less content on disc than other plats so you will get the same game regardless of the console

As for exclusives, they are exclusive so raw power difference between consoles is meaningless.

Lastly, going by this gen specs, if someone buys a console for its raw power is stupid:
PC masterrace


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## kehkou (May 24, 2013)

ForteGospel said:


> underclock it so it won't get damaged and will last longer


Ok, let me rephrase that: for a *home console* power consumption worries should come only after adequately powerful hardware worries, the opposite for *handheld consoles.*
 I.e. use a cpu with a higher native clock speed.


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## SirAileron (May 24, 2013)

I have a 360 because Treasure only seems to release games for that console lately. :c


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## tronic307 (May 24, 2013)

heartgold said:


> I heard that PS4 is actually 66% more powerful than Xone as they restricted the GPU only 90% for gaming, 10% for OS.
> 
> Gets worse for Xone.


Which actually makes it unfair for PS4 unless there are *tons* of exclusives on it.


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## ForteGospel (May 24, 2013)

kehkou said:


> Ok, let me rephrase that: for a *home console* power consumption worries should come only after adequately powerful hardware worries, the opposite for *handheld consoles.*
> I.e. use a *cpu with a higher native clock speed.*


that cost more money to produce


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## heartgold (May 24, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Uhm, 33% in GPU computing power alone, 50% difference in performance when you add GDDR5 vs. DDR3 to that is _not_ a small difference. It may be now, but 5 years down the line it won't.
> 
> Then again, this is all raw data, not actual benchmarks. It doesn't take into account OS performance or the SDK's - things may vary once the actual hardware is released.


 
Isn't it errr PS4 50% more powerful for GPU alone?  Only Xbox can be 33% less powerful.

The way numbers work, example. 

PS4 = 150
Xone = 100

150 is 150% of 100.
100 is 66.6% of 150.

Anyhow this indicates PS4's GPU is 66% more powerful, we don't know if PS4 will reverse too. Either way 50% is a significant leap.

According to Kotaku, the Xbox One can only access 90% of the GPU ressources for games. (1.107 TFLOPS).


> The game is loaded in memory and is fully running. The game has full access to the reserved system resources, which are six CPU cores, 90 percent of GPU processing power, and 5 GB of memory. The game is rendering full-screen and the user can interact with it.


http://kotaku.com/the-five-possible-states-of-xbox-one-games-are-strangel-509597078

Also you are looking at 5GB RAM and 6 core use for games. PS4 has superior RAM type and more for gaming use about 7GB of it.

*Lets not forget it is only 16 ROPS against PS4's 32 ROPs. 1.1Tflops up against 1.8 Tflops!!!*

People are in denial if they don't think PS4 could blow Xbox away, or they don't understand specs very well.


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## kehkou (May 24, 2013)

ForteGospel said:


> that cost more money to produce


Perhaps. TBH as an end user I don't really care about specs. What I care about is what the devs care about the specs. If they like a console for having good hardware and want to make good games, exclusives, then its worth the money.


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## Nah3DS (May 24, 2013)

SirAileron said:


> I have a 360 because Treasure only seems to release games for that console lately. :c


yeap, but all of those games are just re-releases
they've been releasing all of their new games on Nintendo consoles... but they haven't produced anything new since S&P2 :/
I wonder if they will switch to Microsoft in this gen


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

heartgold said:


> Isn't it errr PS4 50% more powerful for GPU alone?  Only Xbox can be 33% less powerful.


I was comparing peak shader throughput, which is 1.23 TFLOPS on the XBox One and 1.84 TFLOPS on the PS4 _(0.61TFLOPS difference)_, but your approach works as well I suppose. 

I'm basing what I said on what I found on AnandTech:


> Microsoft can’t make up the difference in clock speed alone (AMD’s GCN seems to top out around 1GHz on 28nm), and based on current leaks it looks like both MS and Sony are running their GPUs at the same 800MHz clock. *The result is a 33% reduction in compute power, from 1.84 TFLOPs in the PS4 to 1.23 TFLOPs in the Xbox One.*


 
...although now that I think about it, I phrased it in a somewhat misfortunate manner.


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## heartgold (May 24, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I was comparing peak shader throughput, which is 1.23 TFLOPS on the XBox One and 1.84 TFLOPS on the PS4 _(0.61TFLOPS difference)_, but your approach works as well I suppose.
> 
> I'm basing what I said on what I found on AnandTech:
> 
> ...


 
No worries. The end result is Xone's inferior.  Multiplats, PS4 games could run at higher framerates and its exclusives is where it will really shine.


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## Foxi4 (May 24, 2013)

heartgold said:


> No worries. The end result is Xone's inferior.  Multiplats, PS4 games could run at higher framerates and its exclusives is where it will really shine.


I'd like to add that the XBox One also runs three OS'es _(one of'em being a cut-down Windows kernel, and we all know how "efficient" that system is with limited resources) _at the same time - the PS4 runs just one.

...I'm sure that won't impact performance at all.


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## heartgold (May 24, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I'd like to add that the XBox One also runs three OS'es _(one of'em being a cut-down Windows kernel, and we all know how "efficient" that system is with limited resources) _at the same time - the PS4 runs just one.
> 
> ...I'm sure that won't impact performance at all.


 
Only 2 cores, 3GB RAM and 10% of your GPU resources thankyou.


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## Rydian (May 25, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I'd like to add that the XBox One also runs three OS'es _(one of'em being a cut-down Windows kernel, and we all know how "efficient" that system is with limited resources) _at the same time - the PS4 runs just one.
> 
> ...I'm sure that won't impact performance at all.


Dreamcast ran NT. 

Also source for them running at once?


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Dreamcast ran NT.
> 
> Also source for them running at once?


 
Dreamcast _"ran"_ Windows CE, and that's not even entirely true - it only ran Windows CE _modules_ that were embedded on the game discs, never the entire OS. Windows CE isn't embedded in the actual console, which is why it says _"Windows CE-Compatible"_. To my knowledge, it physically couldn't run NT - it was based on an SH4 chipset. Feel free to correct me though if you have some data on the subject. 

As for the source for running them all at once... uhm... the presentation itself? It was clearly stated.


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## Rydian (May 25, 2013)

Yeah CE, my bad.

And link to the section of the presentation?  I don't watch those since they tend to have too much fluff, but I want to see the wording.  A device being able to use three OSes at once doesn't mean all three are loaded in the same instant.


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yeah CE, my bad.
> 
> And link to the section of the presentation? I don't watch those since they tend to have too much fluff, but I want to see the wording. A device being able to use three OSes at once doesn't mean all three are loaded in the same instant.


 
I'm looking for a video right now, but it went along the lines of _"The system runs a Windows kernel, the XBox kernel and a third kernel that manages the former two"_. From what I gathered, the Windows kernel takes care of all the Snap-on and Metro-like functionality, the XBox kernel is concerned strictly with games and the supervisor kernel allows the system to put content from both kernels on one screen, zoom and re-arrange things.


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## chartube12 (May 25, 2013)

IMO, Microsoft is misleading people. It is probably 3 different kernels running at the same time but really one OS unless they are 3 mini size OSs like the Wii's IOSs


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## JoostinOnline (May 25, 2013)

chartube12 said:


> IMO, Microsoft is misleading people. It is probably 3 different kernels running at the same time but really one OS unless they are mini size OSs like the Wii's IOSs


An IOS isn't a "mini OS".  It's firmware.  The Wii doesn't have an OS.  The Wii U has the same thing, but with an OS between the firmware (IOS) and running title.


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## Deleted_171835 (May 25, 2013)

heartgold said:


> Isn't it errr PS4 50% more powerful for GPU alone?  Only Xbox can be 33% less powerful.
> 
> The way numbers work, example.
> 
> ...


Once again, talk about hyperbole. Really, having a GPU that is 50% more powerful will allow for better framerates, maybe even a slightly higher resolution and a few more fancy effects but it's nothing "game-changing". I guarantee you that multiplats on the Xbox One and the PS4 will look largely similar with a few differences here and there.

It's not "half a generation" better nor some major significant groundbreaking leap. It's a nice improvement that will allow for better effects and visuals in exclusives but nothing to brag about as some huge advantage over the Xbox One. Stop with the fanboy BS.

And if we're going to use percentages as a gauge for system performance, I'll bring up the fact that the Wii U's GPU is 135% better than the 360's (325GFLOPS vs. 240)! Going by the logic shown here, it completely outclasses it! These percentages and the theoretical peak performance (based on an unconfirmed clock-speed) don't tell us the whole story, we've yet to see how the hardware will fare in real-world applications.


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## Chary (May 25, 2013)

It's using a CPU named Jaguar? And both systems are bragging about how powerful they are?


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## JoostinOnline (May 25, 2013)

Chary said:


> It's using a CPU named Jaguar? And both systems are bragging about how powerful they are?



It still sounds better than "Espresso" lol.


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> And link to the section of the presentation? I don't watch those since they tend to have too much fluff, but I want to see the wording. A device being able to use three OSes at once doesn't mean all three are loaded in the same instant.


http://www.xbox.com/pl-PL/hub/

The full presentation is no longer available on the English hub, but it's still on the Polish hub _(don't worry, it's in English)_. The part I'm talking about starts at *19:36*. I quote:



> _"But, it's how we martial that power, how we create the system that works to deliver the world's greatest games and provide the flexibility to power entirely new, connected experiences. To do this we brought technology from across Microsoft to create an industry first - the soul of the new system is the XBox One Architecture - three operating systems in one. The first is the best of our XBox Operating Systems, made even better by providing deep and instant access to the hardware, so that creators have no limits in harnessing the power of XBox One for cinematic realism. The second is the kernel of Windows, providing *consistent access* to web-powered applications and experiences. Flexible, powerful, simple. The third *connects these two Operating Systems* to create instant *switching*, *multitasking* and effortless *control*."_


Sounds to me like the three systems work side-by-side at all times and the third delegates how much _"attention"_ they get.




chartube12 said:


> IMO, Microsoft is misleading people. It is probably 3 different kernels running at the same time (...)


That's pretty much what everybody meant. A  is a bridge between the machine code and the hardware that performs it - it's the heart of an Operating System_,_ so people commonly just say _"OS"_.


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## kehkou (May 25, 2013)

chartube12 said:


> Seriously? Is Solar power, wind or other alternative(s) powering your area? Cause I have never seen electric stay the same despite usage.


Wind, solar, and local domestic coal.


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## Rydian (May 25, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Sounds to me like the three systems work side-by-side at all times and the third delegates how much _"attention"_ they get.


It mentions three portions from three different OSes, but none of those are incompatible or replace each other.  The kernel could be Windows, the DE could be Blade or whateverthehell 360's using, etc.


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> It mentions three portions from three different OSes, but none of those are incompatible or replace each other. The kernel could be Windows, the DE could be Blade or whateverthehell 360's using, etc.


 
I'm just parroting what the feller said - three kernels, each with its own individual functions working under one architecture.  The fact that the third kernel's job is the job of a supervisor with a side dish of visual flair and the mention of multitasking leads me to believe that the other two have to work at the same time.


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## Rydian (May 25, 2013)

Either it's virtualization (the ultimate sandbox, eh?), or he was using the wrong terms.


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## Coto (May 25, 2013)

Buuut, Dreamcast's windows CE (sh4 cpu) had games running through modules ran on Windows CE (through directx)


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Either it's virtualization (the ultimate sandbox, eh?), or he was using the wrong terms.


 
I'm sure things will be cleared up during E3. If it is an overseeer OS running two kernels via virtualization, it's not so bad. There will be some performance loss, yeah, but they still get full hardware access and it gives you the added benefit of doing fancy stuff with'em on-screen. 

I'm just wondering why they didn't go _"all the way"_ and just made it Windows-based - the Windows kernel is perfectly capable of running games - strip the unnecessary functionality out and bang, you got yourself some embedded gaming Windows _(and loads of security concerns with it, but that's besides the point)_. 




Coto said:


> Buuut, Dreamcast's windows CE (sh4 cpu) had games running through modules ran on Windows CE (through directx)


Like I said, the Dreamcast as a system had no Windows CE components embedded into it - the hardware was Windows CE-Compatible and _some _games _(not all)_ which used Windows CE features had their own own distribution of the kernel with all the modules they needed.


> _With Sega's machine, no operating system resides in the device until it is loaded in on a disc with each game. The advantage, Sega executives say, is that developers can always ship products that use the version of an operating system with the newest features and performance enhancements. The operating system used by some Dreamcast titles was developed by Microsoft after two years of work with Sega. It was an optimized version of Windows CE supporting DirectX. According to Richard Doherty, president of Envisioneering Group, "Microsoft had initially wanted Windows CE to be Dreamcast's main operating system. It isn't." ~Wikipedia_


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## Rydian (May 25, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm sure things will be cleared up during E3. If it is an overseeer OS running two kernels via virtualization, it's not so bad. There will be some performance loss, yeah, but they still get full hardware access and it gives you the added benefit of doing fancy stuff with'em on-screen.
> 
> I'm just wondering why they didn't go _"all the way"_ and just made it Windows-based - the Windows kernel is perfectly capable of running games - strip the unnecessary functionality out and bang, you got yourself some embedded gaming Windows _(and loads of security concerns with it, but that's besides the point)_.


With Windows, it's unfortunately hard to strip things out since it's simply not modular.  Look at how IE couldn't be uninstalled for like 10 years (as the rendering engine was used for help file reading) as an example.  The OS is built always assuming that everything's there, and it cross-references functions out the ass (notably different from the UNIX approach).

So my bet is either virtualization (the component to merge is maybe fancy on-screen stuff with virtualized windows?), or it's not three kernels, just term mixup.


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## Coto (May 25, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Like I said, the Dreamcast as a system had no Windows CE components embedded into it - the hardware was Windows CE-Compatible and _some _games _(not all)_ which used Windows CE features had their own own distribution of the kernel with all the modules they needed.


 
But games relied on directx, which was part of the CE* microsoft kernel runtime, running in background


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Coto said:


> But games relied on directx, which was part of the CE* microsoft kernel runtime, running in background


 
Read the quote I added. The kernel itself was on the discs of games that actually needed it so that each game has a system version that perfectly supports it - it's like proto-updates, really. The use of Windows CE was not mandatory.

This is a list of all the games that used Windows CE components:


> 4x4 Evolution
> Apricot (T37910M)
> Armada (T40301N 00)
> Atari Anniversary Edition (T15130N)
> ...


 
The rest was built using the Katana SDK, not the Windows CE SDK - two different development kits.


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## Coto (May 25, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Read the quote I added. The kernel itself was on the discs of games that actually needed it so that each game has a system version that perfectly supports it - it's like proto-updates, really. The use of Windows CE was not mandatory.


 
windows is a gui plus the background kernel. the enum and services rely on the kernel, so dreamcast runs both windows CE, and games *relying *on windows CE platform (through directx libs)


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Coto said:


> windows is a gui plus the background kernel. the enum and services rely on the kernel, so dreamcast runs both windows CE, and games *relying *on windows CE platform (through directx libs)


 
_*sighs*_ There are two official development kits for the system - one speaks to the hardware directly _(Katana)_ and one uses a Windows CE kernel and DirectX embedded into the game itself _(Windows CE Toolkit, I believe it's the 2.1 version)_. They're _two separate entities_. Not all games _rely_ on Windows CE or DirectX libraries because _not all games use them_, in fact, the majority _doesn't._

Imagine a situation like with native PSVita applications and the PSMobile applications. They both run on the PSVita, except the PSVita ones speak directly to the PSVita's hardware and the PSMobile ones speak to it via the Mono framework.

You have the exact same situation with the Dreamcast - the games written on the Katana worked directly on the hardware, the ones written on the Windows CE 2.1 SDK worked on-top of a Windows CE kernel that was working in the background along with whatever modules the developer wanted to include.

In other words, the Dreamcast _could_ run a Windows CE kernel and _could_ use DirectX, but in _most_ games _it didn't_. Windows CE elements were usually implemented when the game was ported from the PC _(which used DirectX)_ to facilitate the porting process - in other cases, the Katana was preferable as it gave more resources to the developer.

In any case, we're going terribly off-topic here.


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## Coto (May 25, 2013)

but games were tweaked to run *through* directx what does that mean for you?



> The Dreamcast console does not actually ship with Windows CE built in. *The operating system, DirectX, and the game itself are built as one image and stored on the GD-ROM. When the GD-ROM is placed in the Dreamcast console, the boot ROM loads the bootstrap code, which then loads the Windows CE operating system. This way, there are no versioning issues. You ship the version of Windows CE your game was developed on with your game, so there is no need to worry if the user has the correct version installed or not.* There are, of course, differences between the Win32 and DirectX on Dreamcast compared to the desktop. There is no Windows UI (no Windows Explorer, *Start* menu, and so on), so the game is in charge of providing the entire user interface. *There is no support for multiple windows either; the game runs in full-screen exclusive mode with DirectDraw and Direct3D as the primary graphics APIs. Like other Windows CE platforms, you can pick and choose which components you wish to build with your game.* For example, if your game does not make any use of the networking features of Dreamcast, you don't have to include DirectPlay or Winsock.
> *Because Windows CE does not provide its own UI for the Dreamcast, much of the functionality of the Win32 user component as been removed. Only the APIs for accessing resources and some user input WM_* messages are supported. Specifically, those actually dealing with window elements like buttons or menus are removed. Similarly, much of the GDI has been removed because DirectDraw and Direct3D are the main graphics APIs*. What's left of the GDI is support for loading fonts and bitmaps. A new Dreamcast-specific API has been introduced that allows read/write permission to the Visual Memory System devices mentioned earlier. For using the Dreamcast communication features, the standard Win32 serial communications API is supported, as well as Winsock 1.1.


 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms834186.aspx#dxinwince_topic9

Are we clear now?


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## Foxi4 (May 25, 2013)

Coto said:


> but games were tweaked to run *through* directx what does that mean for you? (...) Are we clear now?


 
This applies to the games which _use_ Windows CE and DirectX _and those games only_ - not all Dreamcast games _have_ the Windows CE kernel on the disc _(in fact most don't)_, that's what I'm trying to explain to you. The MSDN article applies _only_ to developers who choose to use Microsoft's development kit, _not_ SEGA's own Katana kit.


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## ComeTurismO (May 25, 2013)

So, the PS4 is better in quality?


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## SirAileron (May 25, 2013)

NahuelDS said:


> yeap, but all of those games are just re-releases
> they've been releasing all of their new games on Nintendo consoles... but they haven't produced anything new since S&P2 :/
> I wonder if they will switch to Microsoft in this gen


Well, while most of their games are re-releases, but my monitors don't have connectors for the old systems anymore. Bangai-O! Missile Fury HD is a proper sequel, though, and it is a godly sequel.


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## hhs (May 25, 2013)

Celice said:


> If it costs $100 less and the two systems continue to share, like, 80% of their total game library (withholding exclusives), I don't see why someone wouldn't, so long as the games aren't perpetually priced as high as possible (Xbox is looking a lot like how Origin...).
> 
> I'm actually super interested in what the launch prices will be. If they're high enough, it might end up that getting a gaming PC would be more economic than going with a dedicated console. Sony at least is looking to offer exclusive games worth getting on their systems.


I agree about the gaming pc comment but the xbox one being 100 dollars cheaper still wouldn't compensate for the monthly internet cost and used game fees if they exist. Odds are you'll want your system for more than a year which means the ps4 would become cheaper within the second year or sooner.


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## Coto (May 25, 2013)

Yes, I was referring to CE's kernel based games released on DC, and how they used directx to i/o most game rendering. Katana SDK IS the main SDK provided by sega to port games..

anyway good offtopic 

-

XONE's less heat and good motherboard design means it'll improve both power consumption & hardware degradation because of heat. And I bet those clocks could be run at faster speeds) x86 on hardware is what a gaming CPU needs today, add that OpenCL / CUDA and you've got an awesome gaming machine.

Buut i'm against m$ paid online, and its exclusives.


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## raulpica (May 25, 2013)

Rydian totally stole my news

You meanie


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## Rydian (May 25, 2013)

raulpica said:


> Rydian totally stole my news
> 
> You meanie


I'll make it up to you later with that thing I do.

Such as not reading threads that I assume are just flamewars. XD


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## Originality (May 25, 2013)

Reading this... I kinda wonder if I'm the only one feeling meh about both PS4 and Xbone. Neither the technology nor the hype seem to get me excited.

Oh right, I forgot. It's the games that matter. I'll pay more attention when they start talking more about the games these game consoles are meant to play


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## Sakitoshi (May 27, 2013)

mmmm.... thinking about this I remembered that amd has 8 core customer cpus, the FX 8xxx series, I really doubt they will be using dual APU there, the integrated graphics are good, but not THAT good, if they plan to put these processors to work, better get a monster GPU instead of a all-in-one APU. I have an AMD laptop with a A8-4500M and the difference between the 7640G and discrete 7670M is more than 3 times more powerful. and will be more cheap have only 1 CPU eightcore that 2 CPUs quadcore, and they save hassle of set a crossfire between APUs.


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## Psionic Roshambo (May 27, 2013)

Love the hardware on these new machines, just not the rest of the baggage that comes with them...


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