# My view on religion.



## Deleted User (Apr 17, 2007)

.


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## Sinkhead (Apr 17, 2007)

Totally. Sorry I have nothing else to say but you've said everything I could have said.

- Sam


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## jumpman17 (Apr 17, 2007)

I could say so many things, but I won't even bother. These topics just get out of hand and turn into flames. It hurts though when I see people with these opinions.


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## Hadrian (Apr 17, 2007)

I believe in Cloister the Stupid.

Joking aside, to me most religions exist to either control people or to make people feel that life isnt meaningless. I don't have a religion I feel its all just one coincidence and that I don't need to feel like I need a reason to exist but then I enjoyed the Doom film so what do I know?

A lot of people say if there was no religion there'll be no war, which is bull because as humans we'll always find something to fight about, be it land or whether the hats should be blue or red its just our nature really.

I do hope that this doesnt become a flame war and that people will discuss in a mature manner, what difference would it make to you and your beliefs if others dont agree?


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## Sinkhead (Apr 17, 2007)

hadrian said:
			
		

> Cloister the Stupid.


Totally! Dwarfers for life!

- Sam


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## Jax (Apr 17, 2007)

tl;dr

(i'm an atheist btw)


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## Azimuth (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(hadrian @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> what difference would it make to you and your beliefs if others dont agree?



tell that to the evangelicals and their crazy ideas.

How dare we go up against god by proposing such logical arguments as evolution, I mean come on people science and facts mean nothing when compared to creationism /sarcasm


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## ugly_rose (Apr 17, 2007)

I have only one thing to say, and that is that religion, regardless of which, is very deep.


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## Digeman (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(ugly_rose @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> I have only one thing to say, and that is that religion, regardless of which, is very deep.



SO'S YOUR FACE!!...sorry...couldn't resist


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## mthrnite (Apr 17, 2007)

Whenever there exists the unexplained. People will try to fill the gap. The universe to our eyes is majestic beyond comprehension. It is only natural to believe that there is a being at least a bit more majestic that created it. No matter how far science goes in explaining the universe, there will always be a knowledge gap. There will always exist the unexplained. There is always the possibility that science will find proof of a creator, as doubtful as that may seem. At that point, the scientists would take "God" as a given, and go about trying to understand "God".

I lost my faith a long time ago, and despite efforts by others to "right" me, it hasn't come back. Certainly if "God" wants me, he can have me, but he'll have to knock on my door for a change, and not the other way around.

I'm not of the mind that religion hurts people. I think people do as they please with or without it. I don't think it makes people any better or worse than they would be otherwise.


Oh, and by the way... don't start no flame wars, or I'll start playing a little god myself.


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## Ryoku (Apr 17, 2007)

You make a lot of sense to me, but I've never really cared for religion anyway. It's just another label.


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## Deleted User (Apr 17, 2007)

Yeah, no flame wars here.  I just hold a strong disbelief in any god.  My dad is a baptist and he reads the bible like every morning.  All my friends believe in some sort of god.  It's actually embarrassing sometimes to be an atheist around my family friends when we're all praying.  Nobody knows I'm an atheist, because I dont' want to tell them or they'll think I'm like ... Satan or something.  So I just play along with them.

Religion hurts people financially when they spend 10% of their income on the church ... or when they watch Peter Popoff on tv and send in donations to get miracle water and miracle cloths that supposedly bring miracles to their lives.

Religion has become VERY socially acceptable.  What if I believed in Zeus, and worshipped him night and day?  Would people take me seriously still?

I don't know what was wrong with me when I was younger.  I truly believed in God.  I prayed ... I believed.  I think younger minds are just more malleable, but I eventually grew my own mind and figured things out for myself.  Life is a mystery.  The universe is a mystery.  Just because I don't have the answers to questions such as "How did life begin?" doesn't mean I'll take the easy route and say a higher being made life.  I'll just leave it as an unknown.  Being an atheist doesn't mean I don't have morals though.  It's still possible to be good without a god.

Life after death?  I don't see any.  Is it really that difficult to picture yourself not existing anymore after you die?  I look at it this way ... I didn't exist 1000 years ago.  So, I think the day after I die ... I'll feel the same way I felt 1000 years ago.


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## Hadrian (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(mthrnite @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> There is always the possibility that science will find proof of a creator, as doubtful as that may seem. At that point, the scientists would take "God" as a given, and go about trying to understand "God".


If that ever happens then what will happen is people will want to know how God came about, what created God and so becomes an endless cycle. I doubt the unbelievers will take the old no one created God, God has always existed.

Damn thinking about this makes my mind hurt.


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## noamkot (Apr 17, 2007)

I hereby send you the wrath of God from the Holy Land 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But seriously, I totally agree with you but it's much easier for me cause my parents are not religious (if anything I come from a partially communist family) and I was brought up a secular in a pretty secular society.
Most people are bounded by their early education and the axioms that they received from their parents and culture, people seldom question the foundations of their perception of the world and you can't blame them for that.
Personally I have no problem with religions and I don't give a damn if the man next to me believes the earth is flat and that birds carry the sun up every morning, as long as these people respect other people around them and don't consider them potential convertees.


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## mthrnite (Apr 17, 2007)

I don't go out of my way to let people know I'm an atheist, but I don't dodge it when it comes up. Most people consider my brand of atheism (weak atheism, I don't actively deny there is a supreme being) as agnosticism anyway, that's cool, whatever works for them.

..and the people that are "hurt" by giving their money away for hope or prayer cloths or whatever... they would find a way to pay their way out of their troubles in an irresponsible way regardless, I'll just bet.

..and even though I'm an atheist, I do believe the sun is carried up into the sky by birds..
..sounds perfectly feasible to me.


... those birds must get really hot!


.. poor birds.. :'(


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## Hadrian (Apr 17, 2007)

Sometimes I wish it was all like it is in Discworld, and we'd just be passangers on the back of a Turtle.


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## henry_uk (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> If a baby dies, he/she goes to hell.
> Everyone who died before Jesus was born goes to hell, because the only way to God, is through Jesus.
> 
> Man, I ramble a lot.Â BTW, I used to be a Christian ... I just saw the light eventually.



I used to be a Christian,  I dont practice it anymore BUT I had to point this out. "Everyone who died before Jesus was born goes to hell, because the only way to God, is through Jesus." is not entirely true to what christians believe. Appreantly, Jesus preyed for the souls of all that came before him and therefore delivered them from that fate....

And that whole baby thing, where did you come up with that notion?


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## .TakaM (Apr 17, 2007)

all my friends are catholic, my family is Anglican, and Im deist, though I sometimes just call myself atheist so I don't have to explain anything

I was brought up Anglican, going to church each Sunday etc, but once I went to catholic high school, it was just too much.
first, people actually made fun of me for being Anglican, nothing serious, really just my friends.. but still, it always shocked me.
I remember being forced to speak during mass, explaining I had no idea what I was supposed to say since I'm not catholic, they assumed this was some crazy excuse.. 
Every religious education class held no answers, my teacher couldn't even define the difference between what a sect, a cult, and a religion is.. honestly it all just seemed like an effort to make student's more intolerant of other religions

Eventually I just gave up, stopped going to R.E.. biggest waste of time.


but still, all religions are okay by me, as long as they don't make up people's minds before they hear the issue


edit-
and also, one of the main things that just proves it to me;
if there is a god, mos def should be playing down from the sky all day, every day


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## Dirtie (Apr 17, 2007)

It seems like some of your ideas on christianity have been molded by what you've been taught while you were raised. However, why do you think there are so many denominations?

An example of one of these ideas is the traditional belief of "everlasting torment", however, if you take a look at an article such as this (no I am not affiliated with that site/church/whatever in any way) you can see why there is such disagreement within christianity. In this particular case it arose as a result of a mix of catholic dogma and mistranslation.

You have to educate yourself and determine your beliefs on your own.


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## Thulinma (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree with everything, am an Atheist myself, and so is almost everyone I know.
However, I'd like to point out a slight mistake in the topic post, the burden of proof actually IS with you, not with the religious people.

Scientifically speaking, everything is true until it is proofed false.
For example: millions of people can never see a unicorn, but that doesn't prove they don't exist. However, only 1 person needs to see one to prove they DO exists. Assuming the person wouldn't be lying, of course.
Yes, generally speaking it is impossible to prove something is true, and very easy to prove something is wrong. The trick is striping away all the wrongs until the only possible right remains.

Ok, I'm rambling now, sorry, stopping


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## VVoltz (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> Man, I ramble a lot.Â BTW, I used to be a Christian ... I just saw the light eventually.


So... I must understand that now you are... Jewish?


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## Tanas (Apr 17, 2007)

Jesus father wasn't God, it was Bigus Dickus. Mary lied because infidelity was punishable by death in those times...


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## mthrnite (Apr 17, 2007)

@Dirtie: My father was a primitive baptist, they believe in predestination.. you will take as many steps as you are granted, not one more or less. My mother was a freewill baptist, they believe your fate is your choosing. What you say about the different denominations is profoundly true, even within so called denominations, there are hugely significant differences.


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## Azimuth (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Thulinma @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I agree with everything, am an Atheist myself, and so is almost everyone I know.
> However, I'd like to point out a slight mistake in the topic post, the burden of proof actually IS with you, not with the religious people.
> 
> Scientifically speaking, everything is true until it is proofed false.
> ...



Science:

-Observe
-Make theory based on facts
-Support theory with evidence and experiments
-Theory disproved, everyone learns something and moves on to the next question.

Religion:

-Make crazy claims, push them on others
-Kill anyone who opposes them
-???
-Profit


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## Heran Bago (Apr 17, 2007)

This is the most 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thread ever.


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## henry_uk (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Thulinma @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with everything, am an Atheist myself, and so is almost everyone I know.
> ...




Actually I would have to say the difference is one relies on fact and proof, the other on faith.


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## skullstatue (Apr 17, 2007)

I could go into detail about trying to prove God's existance but it wouldn't really change anything. In the end it's about faith, if you don't choose to believe in God that's fine, he gave us that choice. I, for one, believe that God (it's my faith, don't get mad) made everything and everyone according to their predestination. I also believe that having faith in the Lord can move mountains because that's what God predestined to happen if you had said faith. I have personally felt him in my life and even though I'm not really all flowers and sunshine, knowing that the anger and pain of life doesn't matter because the only thing that does actually matter in life (my belief) is my faith in God. I also want to share a secret, I am going to die, you are going to die, the guy next door is going to die, and everyone on this forum is going to die.


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## Azimuth (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(henry_uk @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Actually I would have to say the difference is one relies on fact and proof, the other on faith.



my point exactly, what is faith, believing in something without proof


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## chalupa (Apr 17, 2007)

Now, i defiantly know this post will either start a flame-war or get me verbally slapped by other disagreeing members but Christianity is a huge part of my life and it will always be. Also since Christianity is the truth and can save people form eternal damnation I feel that it is my job to find everyone who needs to be saved and introduce them to the gospel. Consider it like someone has cancer and you know the cure to save that life you would do everything In your power to make sure cancer victims can live. 

this topic is important to me so I will stay on here for a bit. If anyone would like to either disprove my faith or ask questions, im ready and willing to answer and combat.

-From the Christian Fanboy


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## spokenrope (Apr 17, 2007)

Just like TakaM, I consider myself a deist, though I usually just tell people I'm an atheist in order to not have to explain myself.  I think religion is dangerous.  People can believe whatever they want to believe as long as it doesn't spill into intolerance, which is not the case far too often.

"Without religion, we'd have bad people doing bad things, and good people doing good things.  Religion makes people from both sides cross over."
-I forget who says this, but I love it (probably paraphrased badly)

"If men are so wicked as we see them with religion, what would they be if without it?"
-Benjamin Franklin

"Faith is the opposite of logic"
-Dawkins?


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## henry_uk (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> my point exactly, what is faith, believing in something without proof


Ok sure, but just without the killing people who disagree bit. Whilst countless deaths and wars have occured with religion at the centre, that does not mean that all religion deals with the killing of oposition.


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## animalsex (Apr 17, 2007)

anyone ever read pascal's wager?

sure, it's based on fear..but it is true.


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## Rayder (Apr 17, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E


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## Astral_ (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(henry_uk @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > my point exactly, what is faith, believing in something without proof
> ...



Please do not confuse faith with religion.

Most people have to believe in something, be it a god, or just that their life will get better, whatever.
Religion is a man-made instrumentation of faith to control people.
You may believe and not adhere to religion at all. You have to believe ; you can't merely stick to science, since science has not explained everything to this day.


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## Azimuth (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(animalsex @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> anyone ever read pascal's wager?
> 
> sure, it's based on fear..but it is true.



http://atheistwager.blogspot.com/2007/04/first-post.html

nice little assessment of pascal's wager


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## spokenrope (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Also since Christianity is the truth



It's important for you to recognize that this isn't true.  You think it's the truth, which is fine.  If it was actually the truth, then it wouldn't be called "faith."

And, if you had been born in Pakistan, you wouldn't believe this.  Something else that's important to consider, I think.


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## henry_uk (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Rayder @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E



This is kind of scarey. Why go to the trouble to prove the things that people believe are ficticious? Everyone, and I mean everyone needs something to believe in. Its like crushing a 5 years olds spirit with the knowledge that Santa isnt real on Christmas eve, why do it?


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## Deleted User (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(henry_uk @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > If a baby dies, he/she goes to hell.
> ...



Well, uhh ... I thought that's what Christians believed.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  The thing is ... you can find two christians that believe in totally different things.  There's so many denominations.  I'm sure there are some that think babies who die go to heaven ... but I remember them going to hell ... because they have original sin or something.


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## chalupa (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Baby's go to heaven, there is an age of understanding that someone must be of, the age varies per person so a retarded guy's age is much higher than a mentally stable man's is. whenever you find a contradiction from two people,  go straight to the bible and cut out the middle man.


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## Thulinma (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> [...] Also since Christianity is the truth and can save people form eternal damnation I feel that it is my job to find everyone who needs to be saved and introduce them to the gospel. [...] this topic is important to me so I will stay on here for a bit. If anyone would like to either disprove my faith or ask questions, im ready and willing to answer and combat.
> 
> -From the Christian Fanboy


I don't have a problem with you believing in Christianity, after all everyone is free to believe in whatever he/she wishes to.
However, I do have a problem with you trying to force everyone else in believing that as well and your firm belief that it is "the truth". Everyone should always be open to the possibility of being wrong, especially on the topics that you never really thought you could ever be wrong. You seem to think religion is war, and thus needs to be fought for. Relax


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## spokenrope (Apr 17, 2007)

Babies are born with "original sin," and that's why they have to be baptized.  To die without being baptized, then, is to die a sinner and hence you go to hell.

My little sister was just baptized, and that's how the priest explained it to me.


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## VVoltz (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(moderator @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> this post has been removed by a moderator
> reason: Unnecessary





MMmm......


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## Azimuth (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Astral_ @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(henry_uk @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> ...



All religions have a bloody past, today they press their beliefs on people by using creationism, abortion and gay rights as a leverage to lampoon the opposition.

@Astral, at least science admits its faults and offers me physical evidence to support their theories, thats why science is important, because we don't yet understand everything and we quest to find out by making intelligent guesses based on experimental evidence.

Faith is the complete confidence that what you believe in is correct without any proof. If someone thinks his life will  be better, thats optimism not faith.


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## skullstatue (Apr 17, 2007)

Now, I don't really like to say this but: the belief in evolution is your religion. For instance, the other day some guy yelled profanity out of the window, one person could look at this in a spiritual sense (the wicked are used to punish the good, test my patience) or another could look at it in a humanistic sense (that guy yelled at me to recieve attention from his girlfriend). Or someone could look at it in both senses. I see religion not only as the perspective a person may have on life but also their various types and levles of faith. Saying religion is the cause of all problems isn't good, you are saying that it's wrong to exist in itself. Yes, we can look at the crusades, but we can also look at presecution in Rome, or the extermination of Christians in Russia. But above anything else, religion is the most important thing in a person's life.


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## spokenrope (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE said:
> ...



We can't continue a dialog if you dodge the subjects.

And there is something to lose.  What if you picked the wrong religion?  Then every Sunday you're just making god madder and madder.


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## spokenrope (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> the belief in evolution is your religion.



Kinda, I guess.  Except belief in evolution is based on evidence.  Piles of it.


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## henry_uk (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> Well, uhh ... I thought that's what Christians believed.Â
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah I can see where your coming from on this. Its like the age of argument of wether or not suicides go to hell etc. First you have the different religions that share the same bible, then you have the different denominations, then you have the different people. and each and everyone of those has a different take on each issue.


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## Deleted User (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Thulinma @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> I agree with everything, am an Atheist myself, and so is almost everyone I know.
> However, I'd like to point out a slight mistake in the topic post, the burden of proof actually IS with you, not with the religious people.
> 
> Scientifically speaking, everything is true until it is proofed false.
> ...



Actually, Scientifically speaking ... the burden of proof is on whoever suggested this god.

Taken from wikipedia:
"Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the person's responsibility who is making the bold claim to prove it."


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## henry_uk (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> Babies are born with "original sin," and that's why they have to be baptized.Â To die without being baptized, then, is to die a sinner and hence you go to hell.
> 
> My little sister was just baptized, and that's how the priest explained it to me.



That is one view, but the church I attended whilst still practicing would probally deem that statement un-Christian.


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## Astral_ (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> @Astral, at least science admits its faults and offers me physical evidence to support their theories, thats why science is important, because we don't yet understand everything and we quest to find out by making intelligent guesses based on experimental evidence.
> 
> Faith is the complete confidence that what you believe in is correct without any proof. If someone thinks his life willÂ be better, thats optimism not faith.



Well even science can have different interpretations based on the same facts, but ultimately it can prove things. That is where it beats blind faith.

As for faith being complete confidence, that is extreme ; faith is belief. It can be blind, it can be open. I used to believe in God, I do not anymore, and the change did not take one day.  

I will have no problem with anyone believing in a deity as long as he does not try to convert me (that's a difference between faith and religion). After all, a supreme being sounds stupid, but the Big Bang does not make much sense either.


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## Azimuth (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Astral_ @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Well even science can have different interpretations based on the same facts, but ultimately it can prove things. That is where it beats blind faith.
> 
> As for faith being complete confidence, that is extreme ; faith is belief. It can be blind, it can be open. I used to believe in God, I do not anymore, and the change did not take one day.Â
> 
> I will have no problem with anyone believing in a deity as long as he does not try to convert me (that's a difference between faith and religion). After all, a supreme being sounds stupid, but the Big Bang does not make much sense either.



Thats the difference between enlightened people(me,you...) and religious fanatics. Science is not perfect but when there is a mistake a scientist doesn't just cover his ears and keep believing in a false theory. Religion continues to assert that the same crap that has been proven wrong is right, saying such things as the world is 6000 years old when there is tons of evidence countering this.

Im all for people believing what they want, but when I hear that creationism should be taught as an opposing theory to evolution, I can't accept that.


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## Thulinma (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Thulinma @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with everything, am an Atheist myself, and so is almost everyone I know.
> ...



You missed the part below that:

"Failure to provide sufficient proof does not mean the original theory is correct unless it itself has been proven. A classic example of this would be the search for extra-terrestrial life. While no one is able to satisfy the burden of proof that life does exist, no one is able to provide any more proof that life does not exist as there is equal evidence to both sides (The lack of ability to check for life is in conflict with the vastness of the universe). For the "Burden of Proof" to apply you must be attempting to disprove something which is already backed by evidence."

Considering for example Christians consider the bible evidence (I'm sure all religions must have something they consider evidence that they are right), the burden of proof is with the people trying to disprove it.


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## Astral_ (Apr 17, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> Thats the difference between enlightened people(me,you...) and religious fanatics. Science is not perfect but when there is a mistake a scientist doesn't just cover his ears and keep believing in a false theory. Religion continues to assert that the same crap that has been proven wrong is right, saying such things as the world is 6000 years old when there is tons of evidence countering this.
> 
> Im all for people believing what they want, but when I hear that creationism should be taught as an opposing theory to evolution, I can't accept that.



Yeah, the whole creationism thing amazes me. The evolution/creationism debate does not even occur here in France, and probably not in Europe at all. I considered the theory of creationism but really cannot stand for anything in it. Planted dinosaur bones ??? Come on...


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## WeaponXxX (Apr 17, 2007)

You know...I'm not an Athiest...I just don't believe in the bible that being sad I am pretty tolerate of almost every other religion besides Christianity because of this:



QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> I feel that it is my job to find everyone who needs to be saved and introduce them to the gospel.
> 
> 
> Getting "Saved"...I used to try and go with my ex wife to dinner with her church friends...we'd eat and have a great time, 5 minutes away from ending a good night I get the "You should come to our church" talk ... where I am pretty much badgered into going to church....the pushing of the religion is something I really can't tolerate...it is the fastest growing religion last I checked most likely because the weak minded are easily pursuaded from thinking for themselves. I often have a good laugh at Kirk Cameron on the jesus channel as he is teaching his viewers to force Christianity down the viewers friends, family and co-workers throats. "Now you may meet somebody as close as an Uncle," says Kirk "and he may not believe in christ and you need to sit him down and save him from going to hell make him BELIEVE".... There are some other religions that are pushy...I'd say more just trying to inform you of your "options" but being "saved" just irritates the hell out of me.
> ...


What about the hardcore Christians that let their kids DIE cause they think Jesus will save their child or...if the child dies it is God's will?

Funny story.... I wrecked my jeep on a dare and ripped my leg pretty nicely near off...real bad road rash... I walk in my friends door and her family has these African religious people....I don't know what they were....religion wise but they saw my leg and immediately surrounded me... praying in ?tounge? for my leg to heal...I was like Dude...I'm missing half my leg...what the hell do you think is gonna happen....then they go "How do you feel?"...I was like "Um....life I'm still missing half my leg!"

I actually gotta get back to this call...I;m gonna end on a quote from Hugh Laurie as Greggory House "Isn't Ironic you can't tell the difference between spiritual enlightened individuals...and those that are mentally ill?"

(Quoted from memory..not word for word)


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Now, i defiantly know this post will either start a flame-war or get me verbally slapped by other disagreeing members but Christianity is a huge part of my life and it will always be. Also since Christianity is the truth and can save people form eternal damnation I feel that it is my job to find everyone who needs to be saved and introduce them to the gospel. Consider it like someone has cancer and you know the cure to save that life you would do everything In your power to make sure cancer victims can live.
> 
> this topic is important to me so I will stay on here for a bit. If anyone would like to either disprove my faith or ask questions, im ready and willing to answer and combat.
> 
> -From the Christian Fanboy



I understand your belief, but you talk as though you have been personally sent by god. Its not your responsibility to convert people or find people who need to be 'saved', and I assume anyone who isn't Christian needs to be saved right, cause we are all godless heathens going to hell and you are so much better than us.

I pray to you ohh great chalupa, save me from this life of reason and logic 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Your arrogance amuses me.


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## Costello (Apr 18, 2007)

About Christianism. 
From my point of view - my conception of Christianism, you need to look beyond the mere facts. Each fact evoked in the bible, ordinary or extraordinary, possible or impossible, is meant to teach you something. It's not meant to impress you, it's not meant to make you swallow things like Jesus is some kind of superman.
It's meant to make you think, and draw your own conclusions.

_Religion isn't what truly matters. In the name of religion, I've seen fanatics from every confession calling in the will of God. I've seen religion shine in the eyes of many murderers. Holiness, is to do what's right. To fight with bravery for the defenseless. What God wants, the goodness he demands, is in your brain and heart. And by your everyday choices you will proove yourself good... or not._

This (congratulations if you can find where this is taken from, as this is a very rough translation from french) is what I believe in. Extremism is dangerous, no matter what it is the extreme of. Islamic extremists, Christian extremists, etc. 
What do religions praise? Religions praise peace, goodness. It's your choices that make you a good man.


----------



## melloncollie (Apr 18, 2007)

Personally, I feel that life has no meaning at all.
We're simply living by mere chance and we will live and then we  will die.
There is nothing more to it.
No divine meaning or purpose.
We live and we die.
No hereafter, no god, no universal truth, no universal good.
Everything is relative.

I also feel that religion is rather egocentric in that it holds humanity as being supreme to all but their god.
In a sense, religion (Christianity as my example) positions us to the height of god (e.g. we were created in god's image, everything was made for us, etc.).

Another note, no one can ever prove religion using facts or logic.
It's simply impossible.
What religion calls for is faith.
Faith is blind following (in the sense that one who has faith requires no proof to believe).
Therefore religion is blind.
Now, how could one possibly prove a religion?
Basically, one cannot prove an illogical thing using logic.
It just really gets my goat when someone tries to.


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## henry_uk (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Costello @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> congratulations if you can find where this is taken from, as this is a very rough translation from french



Wikipedia?

What did I win?


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## Costello (Apr 18, 2007)

Uh no, not wikipedia... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



the thing I'm refering to is also available in english but I didn't have the english version so I used the french version and did this rough translation.

Sorry for the off topic.
Btw: I'm watching. No flame wars! No insults! 
Antisemitism will be severely reprehended.


melloncollie:
how fatalistic.
I'll give a meaning to your life: be a good man, stop constantly seeking personal profit - directly or indirectly.
If you do so you will find a meaning in life, and this is no joke.


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## BoneMonkey (Apr 18, 2007)

i love boobies


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## science (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> Everyone who died before Jesus was born goes to hell, because the only way to God, is through Jesus.



I didn't read the whole post or any of the replys so this might have been said already. Christians believe that Jesus will come again to judge the living and the *dead.*


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## Hitto (Apr 18, 2007)

I'm not anti-anything and for freedom of cult, but you gotta agree that people who have imaginary friends beyond the age of five are dangerous to a rational, logical society when they try to force others to do the same. Problem is, right now, wars are being waged because of proselytism, and there is no way to get rid of that by-product of superstition.

My main pet peeve with religion is that it's an abject laziness of the mind : why look for evidence, why prove theories when you can easily say "g.d did it"? (I'm not a religious jew at all, and I hate superstition, but man is a contradictory animal... never write His name, just in case!)

It stifles personal empowerment. Without doubt, no progress is made and without enough sense to ask yourself "what if this was all bullshit made up to control the masses?", you will dwell in your own philosophical shit, pardon my french.
It's something humanity needed a long time ago, and nowadays, it causes more problems than it solves.


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## melloncollie (Apr 18, 2007)

Well Costello, I'm not looking for a meaning to my life.
I perfectly accept that there is no meaning.
In fact, it is a part of my personal philosophy that there is no meaning and that "meaning within life" is very human-egocentric. We are not the only sentient beings of importance. We do not have the ability to attach divine or secular meaning to lives or a life.

On another note I also feel that humanity as a whole is imperfect and as such is corrupt.
corruption leads to pain and suffering.
Therefore Humanity, simply by existing, causes and creates pain and suffering.
Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't live and that we all should kill ourselves.
No, rather, I'm saying that reality as we know it is harsh, fatal, and cold.


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## jaxxster (Apr 18, 2007)

Religion....The greatest killer in the world


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## chalupa (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Now, i defiantly know this post will either start a flame-war or get me verbally slapped by other disagreeing members but Christianity is a huge part of my life and it will always be. Also since Christianity is the truth and can save people form eternal damnation I feel that it is my job to find everyone who needs to be saved and introduce them to the gospel. Consider it like someone has cancer and you know the cure to save that life you would do everything In your power to make sure cancer victims can live.
> ...



Crap this is exactly what i didnt want people to start doing but oh well,
when you adress me as being sent by God to go save people, thing is... we kinda are, God sent us to go and spread the word so that people would not have to go to hell, hell was not made for humans. Dont under any circumstances think that I am trying to imply that I am better than you, just that if in the "off chance christianity just so happens to be real" that you would not have to go to hell.

As far as science vs. Christianity, I see science as a supplement to Christianity not against it. As far as evolution causing animals to have similar characteristics, I think it just shows we have a designer that uses similar ideas in everything (*example* Nintendo always uses ABXY when developing controls)


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Crap this is exactly what i didnt want people to start doing but oh well,
> when you adress me as being sent by God to go save people, thing is... we kinda are, God sent us to go and spread the word so that people would not have to go to hell, hell was not made for humans. Dont under any circumstances think that I am trying to imply that I am better than you, just that if in the "off chance christianity just so happens to be real" that you would not have to go to hell.
> 
> As far as science vs. Christianity, I see science as a supplement to Christianity not against it. As far as evolution causing animals to have similar characteristics, I think it just shows we have a designer that uses similar ideas in everything (*example* Nintendo always uses ABXY when developing controls)



I don't want to get into a whole argument here, but you say that hell wasn't made for humans, so who was it made for?

You do also realize that the odds of Christianity being the 'chosen' religion are the same as every other religion, so why is it that your religion is superior to any other.

Evolution doesn't cause animals to have similar characteristics, it is a dynamic process that functions by using the method of natural selection, animals that have an advantageous trait survive and get to breed the others don't. As these different traits accumulate, a species may split into two different species. So the strength of evolution isn't similarities its differences which determine what organism survives.

To say that a creator is responsible for organism design is jumping to conclusions, if god did create the body then why aren't we perfect. The prostate is just one example of a very poorly designed body part.

ohh and doesn't it say that the sun revolves around the earth in the bible, and that man descended from 2 individuals? how is this complementary to science.


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## Icarus (Apr 18, 2007)

the most disturbing thing about religion is how one religion refuses other ones. like christianity, they believe all non-christians are gonna go to hell. same goes with islam. every non-muslim goes to hell. no matter what they've done in their life.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Crap this is exactly what i didnt want people to start doing but oh well,
> when you adress me as being sent by God to go save people, thing is... we kinda are, God sent us to go and spread the word so that people would not have to go to hell, hell was not made for humans. Dont under any circumstances think that I am trying to imply that I am better than you, just that if in the "off chance christianity just so happens to be real" that you would not have to go to hell.
> 
> As far as science vs. Christianity, I see science as a supplement to Christianity not against it. As far as evolution causing animals to have similar characteristics, I think it just shows we have a designer that uses similar ideas in everything (*example* Nintendo always uses ABXY when developing controls)



I know that you're probably going to get crap from people, but I really understand your trying to convince non-Christians that their soul is in trouble.  I probably respect you more than the people who say "Meh.  I'm a Christian because it's what I want.  Everybody else can choose what they want."  Just like I respect the people who actually try to be Christ like instead of just going to church on Sundays, hating the gays and voting republican.

You're going to annoy me more than somebody who is quiet about their faith, sure.  But I respect you more.  Don't get discouraged.


----------



## skullstatue (Apr 18, 2007)

Azimuth have you ever read the Bible? Because I have read plenty of books about evolution, and the big bang. I have watched countless shows about evolution, and the big bang. And I have been taught that evolution is fact by every teacher I have ever had. Hell was made for people that deny God, (Jesus walked in Hell when he died for three days, pretty weird) it's not good to come to God out of fear but out of understanding. In the beginning we were no different from animals (besides our intellect) until we gained the ability to understand good from evil. You're right that the human body isn't perfect, it's burdened with sin, and this sin is what kills us (the spirit of death was created when we consumed the forbidden fruit). As for people who were born before Jesus, they ended up in Abraham's bosom and will be judged after the rapture. I also don't understand the big bang, not a giant exlposion causing a pool of acid to form microscopic animals. But how can you even reach a specific point in time when there is an eternity behind you? I never really understood that. Christianity is the oldest religion, it also is one of the only religions to explain past events accurately and also to be supported by geographical events. You may also consider the Torah code, and predictions in Revelations. I don't base my faith out of evidence but out of my relationship with God and how he affects my life. Well, that's all I can type right now because I have a shit load of homework, talk to you in a couple of hours.


----------



## chalupa (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Crap this is exactly what i didnt want people to start doing but oh well,
> ...


Hell was made for the devil when he rebelled and started a war against God.
As far as Christianity being the chosen religion in comparison to other religion's simplest thing to look at are prophecies, now if you decide to read revelation and just think wtf? keep in mind that the book was written by a man who never saw technology before so he is trying to do the best he can. example, Revelations at one point talks about locust with halo's and human faces, that would be a modern day helicopter. Also the odds that Jesus would fulfill  all the prophecies of the old testament are 1times 10 to the seventeenth power. If the bible was just a story, then it was beyond extremely well written to be able to add up that well to the Torah.

As far as poorly designed organs go...... what are the odds that a human of such complexity would come out at random, with one flaw, the human body is an extremely complex thing and one organ that isn't the best is not good enough of an excuse. This could also hypothetically play into natural selection. as we now the best men dont always end up with women and i dont think i have ever heard a story of a woman asking about a man's prostate before having sex with him, thus faulty prostates could have been passed on.

I don't remember any scriptures regarding the earth rotating around the sun but if you have the address of it i would like to read it. I don't understand how humanity coming from man and woman does not make sense. Back then incest was not wrong, people migrated, adapted different traits due to conditions and different races where formed, or maybe when the world was Pangea, the continents where separated and drifted away while people where on it.


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## trelantana (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Just like I respect the people who actually try to be Christ like instead of just going to church on Sundays, hating the gays and voting republican.



I'm not fond of those people.  They claim to believe in the "New Testament", which is supposed to teach tolerance and kindness, while they practice "Old Testament" "Vengeful God" customs.  They want to prosecute homosexuals, outlaw all non-Christian books like "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" and "A Guide to Witchcraft", and, of course, burn down schools and kill children to resurrect the devil.  Actually, I made that last one up.  And that "Old Testament Vengeful God" stuff is actually a bit unknown to me.  I've never read the Old Testament.  But just the same, these people are stupid.


Moving on:
Christianity shares its origins and many religious texts with Judaism, specifically the Hebrew Bible, known to Christians as the Old Testament.

And thus, they should share some basic characteristics.  To be more specific, the idea of NOT HATING EACHOTHER.

Once again, that's a bit of an assumption on my part.  I am very sorry I have made this post, as I believe it has become more of a rant than I had originally intended, and that it has also lost my main basic idea.  Once again, very sorry.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(skullstatue @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Christianity is the oldest religion
> 
> 
> Sigh.  No.  Jesus was Jewish, so that alone disproves that.
> ...



I'd love to hear which events you mean and what the evidence is.

The earth being 6 thousand years old?

A single man managing to get 2 of every species of animal onto a boat?

Talking serpents?  People living for hundreds of years?  Healing miracles?  Parting of seas?  Water into wine?  Pi being exactly 3?

Faith is fine.  But common sense alone disproves much of the events of the bible. So it has to be faith that one rests these beliefs on, not facts.


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## chalupa (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(skullstatue @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Christianity is the oldest religion
> ...


If you are talking about carbon dating, is inaccurate.  when something is older than 16 thousands results are extremely off. a shoe found from the civil war was carbon dated at about 36 thousand years old. not very effective

also the worlds oldest tree is roughly 42 hundred years old, the sahara dessert took about 42 hundred years to form, and for niagro falls to erode far back enough to be at it's current state it would take about 42 hundred years, and according to the bible the flood happened about 42 hundred years ago. 2 of every species would be possible to the long lives that people lived back then, people lived longer thanks to jewish law that forbid eating unclean animals (pigs, lobsters, crabs, ect.) allowing for people to live healthier. Also at some point that i dont remeber exactly (sorry) god placed a curse on man that would not allow them to live past a certain age.


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## melloncollie (Apr 18, 2007)

Paganism.
Any form of which is far older than Christianity.
please, don't muddle facts with your ignorance.
(I don't mean ignorance in any offensive way; I just mean it in its literal term)

So, wait, you believe in Pangea?
That was 250 million years ago.
Yet, your Bible states that Earth is not but 6000 years old.
How can that be?

I'm sorry but far too many logical, rational evidence and conclusions that go against any form of mystic religion.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

I'd like to see sources for the inaccurate carbon dating.  That'd be interesting to see.

Aside from that, there's still ice cores, geological formations, and oh, say, light from stars more than 6000 light years away that point to the earth being more than 6000 years old.

And if people did live longer, it'd still be pretty difficult to gather up 2 of every animal seeing as new species of animals are still being discovered to this day.  Not to mention the impossibility of fitting these animals on a single ship and still making it sea-worthy.


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## Bowser128 (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(skullstatue @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Christianity is the oldest religion, it also is one of the only religions to explain past events accurately and also to be supported by geographical events.
> 
> How do you work that one out? Christianity is based on Judaism, which spans back a fair few years, but you seem to have ignored all non-Judaism based ancient societies.
> 
> ...



You seem to have misunderstood the concept of evolution, it is the exact opposite of random. Having the most advantageous traits in a species (a cheetah being particularly fast for example)  mean an animal is more prosperous and is able to mate more, so only those 'best' traits get passed on. It's an incredibly slow process, but it is far from random.


----------



## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(skullstatue @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Azimuth have you ever read the Bible? Because I have read plenty of books about evolution, and the big bang. I have watched countless shows about evolution, and the big bang. And I have been taught that evolution is fact by every teacher I have ever had. Hell was made for people that deny God, (Jesus walked in Hell when he died for three days, pretty weird) it's not good to come to God out of fear but out of understanding. In the beginning we were no different from animals (besides our intellect) until we gained the ability to understand good from evil. You're right that the human body isn't perfect, it's burdened with sin, and this sin is what kills us (the spirit of death was created when we consumed the forbidden fruit). As for people who were born before Jesus, they ended up in Abraham's bosom and will be judged after the rapture. I also don't understand the big bang, not a giant exlposion causing a pool of acid to form microscopic animals. But how can you even reach a specific point in time when there is an eternity behind you? I never really understood that. Christianity is the oldest religion, it also is one of the only religions to explain past events accurately and also to be supported by geographical events. You may also consider the Torah code, and predictions in Revelations. I don't base my faith out of evidence but out of my relationship with God and how he affects my life. Well, that's all I can type right now because I have a shit load of homework, talk to you in a couple of hours.



merely reading and watching don't mean shit if you don't understand the concept and evidence backing it up, Big-bang theory is much debated and there still isn't a definitive solution, the newest addition is the expansion theory(the beauty of science is that it evolves with our increased understanding, unlike you know what).

Hell is just a tool used to guilt and scare people into believing crap they otherwise won't, fire is used because it is a primitive fear that people 2 thousand years ago could easily comprehend. You would think god with all his wisdom could come up with something a little more creative.

The perfection I was talking about isn't sin and such, it is the fact that our bodies have numerous physical shortcomings, but since we were created in god's image i dont see how this could be.

Umm Christianity isnt the oldest religion, here is a brief list: Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judism(you mentioned the torah, so wtf?)

Big bang didn't cause microscopic organisms, it created the universe from a single explosion of infinitely dense matter occupying a point in space. What you are talking about is the creation of rudimentary life in the early earth, caused by interaction of lightning ammonia CO2 nitrogen and oxygen to create primary organic compounds, this has been reproduced in a lab, thus verifying the hypothesis.

Yup Christianity is super accurate, http://ezinearticles.com/?Questions-Your-P...-Hate&id=103223

If you have a relation with an old guy in the sky, thats all you man. Im not going to interfere with that


----------



## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as poorly designed organs go...... what are the odds that a human of such complexity would come out *at random*, with one flaw, the human body is an extremely complex thing and one organ that isn't the best is not good enough of an excuse.
> ...


No, that's "Natural Selection" which is undeniably fact with even creationists agreeing.


----------



## Edster (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> It's taboo to criticize religious faith or any convictions born from it.Â Religions are the area in which we tolerate dogma uncritically.Â To deny the holocaust ever happened, or to assert you're in dialog with extraterrestrials is pretty much synonymous with craziness in our culture.Â This is so because we challenge people when they strongly believe in things without evidence or in contradiction to a mountain of evidence ... except on matters of faith.
> 
> So let me get this straight.Â There's this invisible being called God.Â And this God is fully aware that 1) he never physically shows himself to anyone and 2) there's not more evidence for his existence than there is for unicorns.Â And yet under those conditions I'm expected to believe in him, and if I don't, I'll be damned to a fiery hell for eternity after I die, despite living a life of kindness, generosity and love for others?Â What a rip off!Â This outlines ONE of the many reasons why I'm an atheist.Â Its not that I choose not to believe in a god.Â You don't consciously CHOOSE to believe in something or not.Â You either do believe, or you don't.Â And I don't.Â My mind is just not capable of believing in something so ... extraordinarily ridiculous to me.Â Magical and invisible beings that can hear your thoughts may seem normal to others, but not to me.Â It angers me when people ask why I choose to be an atheist.Â I didn't CHOOSE to be an atheist!Â BELIEF IS NOT A CHOICE.Â I can't choose to believe in God!Â Can you choose to believe that my toenail clippings made the universe?Â Going to hell for INHERENTLY not believing in God just doesn't make any sense.Â And that's just the tip of the iceberg.Â I haven't mentioned walking on water, rising from the dead, or a talking bush.Â If I told those stories to a child, they'd most likely believe it.Â Children believe anything, which is why I think it's dangerous to teach those biblical stories as FACT.Â It amazes me how many grown adults believe in these magical, fairytale-like stories.Â I guess when you hear these stories over and over again, and are brought up being taught that these stories actually happened for a fact ... you tend to lose the sense of absurdity.Â The whole bible is filled with hundreds of examples of ... crazy things happening.Â No offence to Christians (or else I'd be offending a HUGE number of people), but I just can't understand how someone can devote their lives to something so crazy and truly "believe" the majority of what the bible says.Â If only you can see it from my eyes ...
> 
> ...



Dude I agree with you 100%. 

One thing religion never teaches anyone is to believe in themselves.

Just because someone says it's a fact, doesn't make it a fact (Penn & Teller).

My wie and her family are big time Christians. I don't get it. I don't go to church as I don't belive in it. For me to go to church would be hypocritical. I don't believe in it and I don't know how anyone could. I really don't get it in this day and age. For their only answers to life's mysteries is the old "It's not meant for us to understand" or "we are not capable of understaning" or the best one "God works in mysterious ways"

I've always said to them it's great to have a Religion that says you can do whatever you like all year round and them get forgiven for all your sins. What a joke!!!!


----------



## chalupa (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I'd like to see sources for the inaccurate carbon dating.Â That'd be interesting to see.
> 
> Aside from that, there's still ice cores, geological formations, and oh, say, light from stars more than 6000 light years away that point to the earth being more than 6000 years old.
> 
> ...


yes Christianity is based on Jewdism. thats why Jews that are converted to Christianity tend to have more indepth knowledge than your standard Christian. 

But that does not mean a negative trait cant be dominant and mask a more favorable trait. 

I have to go to bed so i will continue this more tomorrow.


----------



## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> If you are talking about carbon dating, is inaccurate.Â when something is older than 16 thousands results are extremely off. a shoe found from the civil war was carbon dated at about 36 thousand years old. not very effective
> 
> also the worlds oldest tree is roughly 42 hundred years old, the sahara dessert took about 42 hundred years to form, and for niagro falls to erode far back enough to be at it's current state it would take about 42 hundred years, and according to the bible the flood happened about 42 hundred years ago. 2 of every species would be possible to the long lives that people lived back then, people lived longer thanks to jewish law that forbid eating unclean animals (pigs, lobsters, crabs, ect.) allowing for people to live healthier. Also at some point that i dont remeber exactly (sorry) god placed a curse on man that would not allow them to live past a certain age.



There seems to be an intelligence drift in this discussion, atheist/agnostics/non-believers seem to be more knowledgable .sigh.

First of, carbon dating isn't the only means of identifying a specimens age. Maybe you have heard of other isotopes?

You serious about the length of age thing, with all the medical advances... im not wasting my time to be honest, and muslims and jews nowadays dont eat pigs, hmm strange that they only live to the average life span.

Wow curse, thats logical man, I mean here I thought all my life that it was the oxidation of organic substances and apoptosis(cell death) that happens throughout our lives, guess I was wrong, damn this curse :'(


----------



## Bowser128 (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> ...








You got me, although natural selection is a part of evolution, I should have mentioned species divergence. In my defence, it _is_ 3am.


----------



## Edster (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(henry_uk @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Babies are born with "original sin," and that's why they have to be baptized.Â To die without being baptized, then, is to die a sinner and hence you go to hell.
> ...



My mom was told by a priest that if I was not baptised that I would die and go to hell. 

From that point on, Religion played little role on our family. 

Believe in yourself. Be a good person. Have great friends. Live your life. Enjoy it


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> You got me, although natural selection is a part of evolution, I should have mentioned species divergence. In my defence, it _is_ 3am.



Actually you are right, natural selection is the method by which evolution is carried out. Think of it as micromanagement that ultimately fits in to create a larger picture


----------



## chalupa (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Edster @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(henry_uk @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 17 2007 said:
> ...


Then i am very sorry for you, i would recommend finding a different church without someone with such blaten lies leading the church. there are some not so good churches out there so be careful (your example) tragically i am pretty sure i live nowhere near you so cant recommend anything sorry.


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

Did anyone even read my post earlier?

If you believe in the Bible it is directly evidenced that hell is not a place of eternal torment: http://www.equipministry.com/studies/mythhell.htm
(not affiliated with the site or the church that runs it in any way)

Instead of listening solely to what your church tells you, assess your own beliefs, educate yourself, and make up your own mind.


----------



## serious_sean (Apr 18, 2007)

totally. at this point it doesn't really make sense to believe in the bible or other holy books. They have been shot so full of holes by science that they aren't even marginally valid.


----------



## chalupa (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Did anyone even read my post earlier?
> 
> If you believe in the Bible it is directly evidenced that hell is not a place of eternal torment: http://www.equipministry.com/studies/mythhell.htm
> (not affiliated with the site or the church that runs it in any way)
> ...



I agree with finding things for yourself, whole heartedly.
Be carefull with sights like this though and remember to look up the verse yourself as people like to take things out of context. 

for real this time, goodnight.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Did anyone even read my post earlier?
> 
> If you believe in the Bible it is directly evidenced that hell is not a place of eternal torment: http://www.equipministry.com/studies/mythhell.htm
> (not affiliated with the site or the church that runs it in any way)
> ...



That's why I'd love religion to be taught in schools from a very early age.  All religions.  Unbiased-ly.  "These people believe this, these people believe this, these people used to believe this."  And then the kids can make up their own minds.  And once they do, they'll be much more tolerant and understanding about the rest of the world.

/dream


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(serious_sean @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> totally. at this point it doesn't really make sense to believe in the bible or other holy books. They have been shot so full of holes by science that they aren't even marginally valid.


That's not what I said at all


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## imgod22222 (Apr 18, 2007)

I'm catholic and don't believe in half of what the church says. what does that mean i dont know. But what separates different religions pisses me off. Not the fact that it IS a religion, but that it's a different religion, or a religion that has subdivisions. An example: Shuni and Shiite muslims. They demand different mosques, etc because one believes Muhammad's wife deserved the something, and the other believes his sone deserved tthe soemthing (or something)

And ATM, all christians i know are like the christians in borat who sing and dance and clap and celebrate that jesus is good. All catholics, like myself site down like people and listen to an old man with liver spots (aka: priest) preach about god. Note: i say christians focus more on jesus and catholics focus more on god. Also, more christian priests are young, and more catholic priests are old.

And offtopic, which priests were accused of child rape? Catholic or chrisitan?


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## mthrnite (Apr 18, 2007)

Hey! You guys still talkin' about God and stuff?


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(chalupa @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to see sources for the inaccurate carbon dating.Â That'd be interesting to see.
> ...



Fair enough.  But if I give you that, you've got to give me that, for example, "dog" somehow getting to a thousand different breeds of "dog" in a couple thousand years don't make sense.  And that would be for every species of animal.  When you don't believe in evolution.

Though, the logistics don't fit.  Ants rely on an entire community in order to survive.  A penguin is going to need a much different climate than an snake.  And all these animals are going to need food and exercise and the right climate and all of this just simply can not fit on a single ship.


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## Orc (Apr 18, 2007)

This is my view on religion:




Where religion is the box and the kittens are people.

Religion is a man-made box to try and understand God.
But we don't need to understand God, silly kittens.
God's there and you're there, just shut the fuck up, get the fuck out of the box
and live.

(I can say alot on my 'views' on religion but shit like these don't end. Discussing thing that don't end causes you to frown and frowning gives you alot of wrinkles. I just stick to what I believe in and just smile once in awhile. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

PS: I didn't read all the other posts except mthrnite's since it was plastered across Dr. Phil's head.


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## skullstatue (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(skullstatue @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Azimuth have you ever read the Bible? Because I have read plenty of books about evolution, and the big bang. I have watched countless shows about evolution, and the big bang. And I have been taught that evolution is fact by every teacher I have ever had. Hell was made for people that deny God, (Jesus walked in Hell when he died for three days, pretty weird) it's not good to come to God out of fear but out of understanding. In the beginning we were no different from animals (besides our intellect) until we gained the ability to understand good from evil. You're right that the human body isn't perfect, it's burdened with sin, and this sin is what kills us (the spirit of death was created when we consumed the forbidden fruit). As for people who were born before Jesus, they ended up in Abraham's bosom and will be judged after the rapture. I also don't understand the big bang, not a giant exlposion causing a pool of acid to form microscopic animals. But how can you even reach a specific point in time when there is an eternity behind you? I never really understood that. Christianity is the oldest religion, it also is one of the only religions to explain past events accurately and also to be supported by geographical events. You may also consider the Torah code, and predictions in Revelations. I don't base my faith out of evidence but out of my relationship with God and how he affects my life. Well, that's all I can type right now because I have a shit load of homework, talk to you in a couple of hours.
> ...



I understand what you are saying: that's how I feel, everyday my relationship and understanding of God changes, it gets better and I begin to understand more and more as time goes on. You can never reach an "ultimate faith" or "ultimate relationship" with God it just keeps progressing until you die. Usually my understanding rises the sharpest through pain and hard times, I hate this town, but now that I look back on how my experiences allowed my relationship to grow, I wouldn't want it any other way.


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## imgod22222 (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Orc @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> This is my view on religion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMFG thats funny. True too.

Oh yeah, about the guy the dude above me quoted. CHRISTIANITY IS NOT THE OLDEST RELIGION, RETARD! JUDAISM IS! JESUS WAS A JEW! BUDDHA BELIEVED THAT JESUS WAS A GOOD MAN, BUT NOT A MESSIAH (or something like that) as for taoism and hinduism i dunno.


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Though, the logistics don't fit.Â Ants rely on an entire community in order to survive.Â A penguin is going to need a much different climate than an snake.Â And all these animals are going to need food and exercise and the right climate and all of this just simply can not fit on a single ship.



Termites + Noah's Ark = ??

Don't try to argue with logic against religious people, they'll just come out with more crap to back up their ideas.

@skullstatue, its common to find god when you are at your lowest, you feel helpless so you look up expecting an answer.

I donno who said this but "I pity those who look up before they look down"


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## masterj27 (Apr 18, 2007)

For me, I try to stay away from religion. I have a relationship. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ because I know that he is God. People can try to use science on one side or the other, and it can make for an interesting debate, but for me it all comes down to how it affects my heart and the people I know. I do enjoy arguing that the Bible is dead on historically, and after reading "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel, and atheist turned Christian by deeply researching the authenticity of Christ and his claims, I further believe even science can help back up the bible. But sometimes I don't care how everything got here, I just know that I have a deep desire that is real to follow and serve Jesus Christ my Lord and Savoir. And before the ranting begins, I am not better than anybody else here, and I'm not here to tear you down, but to build you up on a rock that is Jesus Christ. Sometimes we just have to accept something that we cannot fully understand. It goes against everything the world has tried to teach us, but sometimes in a relationship with God or another human being, we have to trust the relationship even if we don't understand everything about it.

Even though science has an answer to everything, how can you look at the stars, or the mountains, other human beings, or anything with breathtaking beauty and think that it just appeared?

"If you're right, and I'm wrong, neither one of us has lost anything, but if I'm right and you're wrong, I have gained everything, and you have lost everything..."


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## skullstatue (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Though, the logistics don't fit.Â Ants rely on an entire community in order to survive.Â A penguin is going to need a much different climate than an snake.Â And all these animals are going to need food and exercise and the right climate and all of this just simply can not fit on a single ship.
> ...



You're right again, I am willing to confess that I am weak and insignificant, I am a drop of water before the sea that is my God. God carries me when I am hurt, when he is carrying me I feel closest to him. 

One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints,
other times there was one only.
This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life,
when I was suffering from anguish,
sorrow or defeat,
I could see only one set of footprints,
so I said to the Lord,
“You promised me Lord,
that if I followed you,
you would walk with me always.
But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life
there has only been one set of footprints in the sand.
Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?”
The Lord replied,
“The years when you have seen only one set of footprints,
my child, is when I carried you.”


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

Way to prove my point, no logic in that argument, sorry seems like you just rambled on about something.

heres my version, from southpark

I want to walk hand-in-hand with Jesus on a private beach for two.
I want him to nibble on my ear and say 'I'm here for you.


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## Deleted User (Apr 18, 2007)

Man, look what I started!  I just copied 'n pasted my first post from my MSN Space.

Just wanted to mention a few things.  I believe Jesus existed as a human being.  There's absolutely no doubt about that.  The same way David Koresh, and Jim Jones existed.  I just find it hard to believe that Jesus did all the things said in the bible.  Water into wine, walk on water, raise from the dead, etc.  I also find it hard to believe that there was a flood that filled the entire planet and a man took every living thing onto a boat.  And I also find it hard to believe the creation story of a whole universe being made in 7 days, and humans coming from dirt, and women made from a rib, and a serpent with legs who lost them and became a snake.  And the fact that we have rainbows because god wanted us to remember the noah flood.  And there are a BUNCH of bible verses that are pretty disturbing.  Just visit www.evilbible.com and take a look for yourself.  And don't tell me that some things are taken symbolically.  You can't just pick and choose what is symbolic and what is literal just to make sense of things for the present day.



QUOTE(Thulinma @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> You missed the part below that:
> 
> "Failure to provide sufficient proof does not mean the original theory is correct unless it itself has been proven. A classic example of this would be the search for extra-terrestrial life. While no one is able to satisfy the burden of proof that life does exist, no one is able to provide any more proof that life does not exist as there is equal evidence to both sides (The lack of ability to check for life is in conflict with the vastness of the universe). For the "Burden of Proof" to apply you must be attempting to disprove something which is already backed by evidence."
> 
> ...



Yeah ... he'll judge them alright ... and all of them will go to hell.


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## suppachipmunk (Apr 18, 2007)

Wow...  reading everything posted has really made me think about religion a lot.

But I think I will have to agree with Nestea80 from his first post to his last.

I guess i am what you would call an atheist?  Not sure if anything/anyone does exist.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 18, 2007)

http://www.doesgodexist.org/

Try this site.. its pretty interesting.

More specfically, this article:
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html


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## Deleted User (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(suppachipmunk @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> Wow...Â reading everything posted has really made me think about religion a lot.
> 
> But I think I will have to agree with Nestea80 from his first post to his last.
> 
> I guess i am what you would call an atheist?Â Not sure if anything/anyone does exist.



Heh.  I absolutely don't expect people to agree with me.  Not a lot of people do ... at least, not around me.  I feel EXTREMELY alone with the way I see things ... because everyone around me ... the people I love ... don't see things the way I do.  I don't intend to convert anyone ... but, I do intend to at least ... open up some people's minds.  And I think I'm doomed to hell if god really does exist because from what is shown to me, I can never see myself believing in something so ridiculous.  I always come back to the "belief is not a choice" saying.  If I don't believe, I just don't believe.  If god really wants me to believe and go to heaven to live forever... he should've made a better effort with something more real instead of telling me absurd supernatural stories.  If god was truly real ... he must be playing some sort of joke on us.  Doesn't god find it at least a little reasonable for me not to believe in him given what he has presented to me?


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

I think from a christian point of view, the whole point is that you're given a choice, that's the whole reason for our existance.
If God is going to set up a kingdom or whatever, would he rather have it consist of people who believed on faith alone, or people who had no option to deny him because he provided irrefutable proof of his existence (which would result in belief based on fear rather than love)?


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## Takrin (Apr 18, 2007)

I did goto a christian school, but for some reason i really wouldnt call myself a christian now, i follow budism rules  (respect all life, be nice to everything, etc.) but i also dont pray to any god.  i do worship something but in a really different way, i dont bow to my god due to the fact it isnt a being.  time is my god, although it has no thought of its own it's a ultimate force.  budism only comes in because i dont beleive in heaven or hell, be nice while your alive and their alive even if they're strangers.  also dont flame me since this is my opionion and i am fine with your religion, i also dont even try to convert others.

Ok, Tom Cruise beam me up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.
(really my religion is different from scientology, if you even call what i beleive a religion)


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## OSW (Apr 18, 2007)

Some religions make some good moral judgements, but usually many more are illogical and too idealistic.

Religion also causes wars.

I believe in a god; Myself.


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## bronney (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> a whole universe being made in 7 days


 Define "a day".

Nestea80, my cousin btw, seriously there's no use arguing with logic and scientific terms.  Faith is faith and it's just that.  Faith.  If you want logics, the fact that you don't believe in any gods is actually a believe in itself.  Your religion is there's no god.  And you grab onto this believe so strongly that you'll argue in much the same way the "other" religious people argue.

But of course we atheist don't feel that way.  We feel we're more supreme because we're "out" of the filthy god stuff.  We're not sheeps, we're in control (watch some matrix for a meaning of control 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )..

The truth of the matter is, your believe that there's no god is also based on faith.  You said no sonny it's based on logic and observation, well nobody has ever seen a 4, or a 69 (well maybe).. *ahem*.  You've seen 4 apples but you haven't seen a 4.  It's faith buddy.

As for my stand, an old classmate gave me an interesting view and I think I am kinda like that regarding "gods".  He says, "EVEN if god truly exists, why should I do what I am told to, or accept certain values imposed on us as being good, and some being bad?"  Rebellious I guess, but I like that spirit better.  I like to feel the breeze myself rather than a story of a good breeze on a death bed.


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## santakuroosu (Apr 18, 2007)

So this is what happens when people are bored and waiting for a new game to come out. They post topics about a sensitive subject that will eventually turn into a flame war.


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## Deleted User (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I think from a christian point of view, the whole point is that you're given a choice, that's the whole reason for our existance.
> If God is going to set up a kingdom or whatever, would he rather have it consist of people who believed on faith alone, or people who had no option to deny him because he provided irrefutable proof of his existence (which would result in belief based on fear rather than love)?



Well, that's fine ... I just don't think I deserve to go to a fiery hell for eternity for being reasonable.  Assuming there's a hell 'n god of course.


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## dblank (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(masterj27 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> I have a relationship with Jesus Christ because I know that he is God.
> 
> I know this sounds craaaazy and all, but what if you found out he isn't? would you still want to be buds? or would you end the relationship?
> I heard it was actually someone else that's god, and it's in a book, and lots of other people know that she's the real deal, they all seem pretty convinced.. clearly *someone* is delusional! but I doubt it's you, right?
> ...


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## Deleted User (Apr 18, 2007)

LMAO, magical dog.

I agree though.  I know anyone can believe what they want.  But to revolve your entire life around it ... is something serious.  If I wanted to believe in something that's going to drastically change my life such as religion would ... I'd want to make sure I'm believing in something real, because I'd sure feel like a fool if I wasted my whole life believing in something made up.

On one hand ... I see talking bushes, walking on water, invisible entities, predestined lives, disturbing words in the bible, no evolution, a virgin birth, unreasonable requirements for a ticket to heaven, and a million other things that seem, well, wacky to me.

On the other hand, I see a religion that was created to give a sense of purpose to their lives, to give understanding of natural phenomenon around them, to fill the hole of uncertainty, to give answers to the unknown, and to make them have the belief to live forever instead of just rotting away in the dirt.

I guess some people have the ability to believe in, for lack of a better word, "crazy" things.  But my mind just doesn't allow me to.  My mind might get away with one or two crazy thoughts ... then maybe ... just maybe I'd believe.  But no, I have to be overwhelmed with a mountain of "crazy" stories and supernatural mumbo jumbo.  My mind just naturally believes in the more sensible explanation.

To the believers out there ... I'm just curious, what do you think of other religions?  Suppose you're Christian, what do you think of Hinduism?  Do you agree that Shiva was just a figment of someone's imagination and was just made for people to worship and have a higher being to look up to in hopes to get blessings in their lives?  If you can understand that religions are a man made product ... then we're making some ground on having an understanding of one another.  See, you believe all religions are bogus and man made fabrications, except your own.  I believe all religions are bogus and man made fabrications, including yours.  There's very little difference in fact.

At least if you can understand the mutual disbelief of one religion ... then you can understand why I don't believe in yours too ... because really, it's for the same reasons.


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## rest0re (Apr 18, 2007)

jesus died for all of our sins that you could play nintendo ds. also god must look very sexy girl because we're all images of god!!!


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## TLSpartan (Apr 18, 2007)

i went to a catholic school because the rest of my family is catholic. I am a firm communist and in the words of Karl Marx "religion is the opium of the masses". So no, i dont belive in a god i believe something might be there but im not sure. Also jihad does not translate to holy war it translate to struggle(just clearing that up if people thought it meant holy war)


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(The Last Spartan @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> i went to a catholic school because the rest of my family is catholic. I am a firm communist and in the words of Karl Marx "religion is the opium of the masses". So no, i dont belive in a god i believe something might be there but im not sure. Also jihad does not translate to holy war it translate to struggle(just clearing that up if people thought it meant holy war)



jihad doesn't mean struggle although it is close in meaning, it stems from the word juhd which means to strive, so jihad is the striving to do something, in this case striving to protect ones religion against oppressors.


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I think from a christian point of view, the whole point is that you're given a choice, that's the whole reason for our existance.
> ...


I've posted twice already why the Bible does not in fact define "hell" as a place of eternal torment, don't make me do it again 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Basically it comes down to the fact that several words with quite different meanings were all translated as the same thing (hell) when the Bible was first translated into english - and that the notion of eternal damnation had already been proposed by members of the catholic church at the time, which possibly influenced the mistranslations. Interestingly, a lot of modern translations of the Bible correct this to an extent.

Eternal torment (of humans) would be contradictory to what the Bible states is the nature of God.


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## Deleted User (Apr 18, 2007)

I was just thinking ... maybe I don't believe in god because only *I* find certain things ridiculous.  I was quick to assume that everyone would find the same things absurd ... but apparently not.  I guess, if the notion of humanity originating from a man who lived to the age of 930 doesn't strike you as odd ... or the fact that we're capable of murder because Adam ate an apple, then you'll be able to believe everything the bible says.

Those hurdles are just too big for my mind to get over.  It's not that I want to believe, or don't want to believe.  I believe in whatever makes sense to me.  And apparently ... most of the things dealing with religion don't make much sense to me.  They seem too supernatural and outrageous.



QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> ...



Oh, I didn't really have time to read all the posts ... I went out for a couple hours ... come back, and there were pages 'n pages.  And I agree there is a lot of mistranslated stuff in the bible.  I believe it was originally written in Hebrew ... translated into Greek, Latin ... then to English over the span of a couple thousand years.  And there are books that are missing, and the whole bible has been edited and censored.  The resulting english text must look like Engrish compared to the original words.  I'm sure I can find a devout Christian that believes hell IS an eternal place of torment.  Well, there seems to be a lot of disagreements among Christians then.  When I was in church, they told me hell was a place of eternal torment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And they also told me Catholics are going to hell.  And that Mormons belong to a cult.


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## Deleted User (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Takrin @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I did goto a christian school, but for some reason i really wouldnt call myself a christian now, i follow budism rulesÂ (respect all life, be nice to everything, etc.) but i also dont pray to any god.Â i do worship something but in a really different way, i dont bow to my god due to the fact it isnt a being.Â time is my god, although it has no thought of its own it's a ultimate force.Â budism only comes in because i dont beleive in heaven or hell, be nice while your alive and their alive even if they're strangers.Â also dont flame me since this is my opionion and i am fine with your religion, i also dont even try to convert others.
> 
> Ok, Tom Cruise beam me up
> 
> ...



It's cool that you follow religious teachings ... such as being nice to others and not coveting your neighbour's wife.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




And Tom Cruise is a nut!  LoL.  For the pseudoscience fanatical nut he is.  Man, you don't even want to know what Scientology believes in.  That requires some higher level of thinking to understand that BS.


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Oh, I didn't really have time to read all the posts ... I went out for a couple hours ... come back, and there were pages 'n pages.Â And I agree there is a lot of mistranslated stuff in the bible.Â I believe it was originally written in Hebrew ... translated into Greek, Latin ... then to English over the span of a couple thousand years.Â And there are books that are missing, and the whole bible has been edited and censored.Â The resulting english text must look like Engrish compared to the original words.Â I'm sure I can find a devout Christian that believes hell IS an eternal place of torment.Â Well, there seems to be a lot of disagreements among Christians then.Â When I was in church, they told me hell was a place of eternal torment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You seem to have a bit of misinformation when it comes to these things, which is why you should probably do a little more research if you intend to comment more on it.

I'm not sure if you just misinterpreted my post, but actually the early Bible was translated very accurately (the hell thing being one of the few exceptions) - especially so considering this was the first widely available translation into english.
I don't want to get into details, but generally speaking older biblical translations don't contain much of large significance that is divergent from modern translations - some of which have been retranslated from a collation of countless ancient manuscripts in multiple languages. In fact the Bible is deemed much more accurate than many other ancient texts that are used as historical fact nowadays (some of those coming from just a single manuscript).

As far as missing books are concerned, they're known as "apocrypha", which wikipedia defines as: "texts of uncertain authenticity or writings where the authorship is questioned". You can see why they are not included in modern editions of the Bible. It can cover anything from books that may well be a genuine part of scripture, to outright fakes and forgeries. This stuff isn't just covered up or anything, it's determined by scholars and historical experts.


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## mflo (Apr 18, 2007)

These aren't my own words, I found it on youtube lol. It was from this huge debate on youtube about science and religion.

"Science is for the intelligent who set out to figure out how and why things happen, religion is for those of you who believe in what someone else tells you and whose only line of argument is that logic and reasoning do not count."


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

The difference is logic and reasoning can have a part in religion (admittedly where it's suitable), but faith can have no part in science (as it is currently defined).


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## Sil3n7 (Apr 18, 2007)

Many of you are missing the point about what Christianity is about... Its not about doing the right things all of the time because that is impossible but having a relationship with Jesus and trusting that God knows the will for your life by faith not acts. Because when you truly do have a relationship like I have you wont HAVE to follow the rules you will WANT to because

"He is no fool who loses what he cant keep (things of the world) , to gain what he cant lose (Salvation)"


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## Qpido (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Man, you don't even want to know what Scientology believes in.Â That requires some higher level of thinking to understand that BS.



8 Pages and I almost thought you respected all religions, just not believe in them.
I've been a Scientologist for like 10 years, I agree that Tom Cruise makes it look stupid.
It seems to be their tag line to make it look cool or something. Lamest thing ever.

Anyway, I'm curious why you think that is bullshit. Just because you don't worship a god or have to pray?
Someone mentioned no religion said to believe in yourself, well Scientology does do that :S.
I've seen Scientologists in America and they seem to worship the founder (L. Ron Hubbard) as a god, this is retarded.
I'm very happy he founded the religion, but they make it LOOK like a cult. They go about it the wrong way.
But there are alot of Scientologists who aren't so obsessed with getting more people to join, persuading them into coming and try it. Like me, I do it for myself, I'm so sick of people saying it's bullshit without even experiencing it yourself, you've just seen that one episode of South Park (I love SP) and you think you know it ALL. You know nothing.

The thing in Scientology is you do auditing, because you seem to think this is bullshit I assume you know what this is.
This procedure removes engrams, engrams are fragments of energy that have been put in your 'thetan'(so called spirit) when you've had an incident. Those things can obstruct you in the weirdest ways. (May sound illogical, PM me if you want to know more, I don't know how I can explain it better but I'll try)
This is like the best shit ever to me, because I don't have to believe in anything - I experience it first-hand.

I give respect to everyone, who believes anything. I hope you can investigate more and not call it bullshit.

Q~


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## OSW (Apr 18, 2007)

Look, I think belief in religion is fine UNDER ONE CIRCUMSTANCE.

that is; You must come to your belief through your own contemplation, not be taught, forced or coerced into belief.

Let me ask all you regious people out there, If god really exists in the terms christianity and many other religions describe, then why doesn't he make us all acknowledge him? Why encourage humans to spread his word when surely such an almighty being could easily do it himself.

Why do you follow the principles of a religion which has many idiotic rules and regulations? These types of religions destroy your spiritual freedom, not expand it.

If a god honestly exists, what would he have to gain or give from people dedicating themselves to the bible or him? 
The bible entails some good moral philosophy, but that comes along with a hell of alot of bullshit. 
If he really cared about people he would wish us all to live an honest and forfulling life.

The reason people follow the biible or other religious text, is that people have manipulated each other over history through this apparent "religion" only for their own selfish benefits.

Forget about the details of your religion and dedicate yourself to living a good life. If god is an example of supreme good, then i'm sure that is what he would wish us to do.


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## Opium (Apr 18, 2007)

Not to stir up any hate or anything, I genuinely want to know the answer to this question:

Did the Christian god kill a whole city of people just because they were sodomites? Or did I hear that wrongly somewhere along the line?


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Opium @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Not to stir up any hate or anything, I genuinely want to know the answer to this question:
> 
> Did the Christian god kill a whole city of people just because they were sodomites? Or did I hear that wrongly somewhere along the line?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah


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## jaxxster (Apr 18, 2007)

Man, i dont really have much to say about religion. The way i see it is that religion is a form of escapsim for people to take the fact that live means nothing away from them. Then again its man of sceince vs man of faith.


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## cheesyPOOF5 (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(mflo @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> These aren't my own words, I found it on youtube lol. It was from this huge debate on youtube about science and religion.
> 
> "Science is for the intelligent who set out to figure out how and why things happen, religion is for those of you who believe in what someone else tells you and whose only line of argument is that logic and reasoning do not count."



Actually, after taking a class on christianity, a very large amount of the Bible can be scientifically proven.


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## Opium (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Opium @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Not to stir up any hate or anything, I genuinely want to know the answer to this question:
> ...



I see, so they had other crimes as well.

Anywho, my 2 cents into the argument is that I'm perfectly happy being an atheist. My life is fulfilling without belief in a higher power. Religion has always been a excuse to massacre countless millions in the past (and present). The Muslims and Christians have been fighting for thousands of years. "My god is better than your god" etc, that's enough to put a damper on the whole thing for me.


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## mthrnite (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Opium @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I see, so they had other crimes as well.
> 
> Anywho, my 2 cents into the argument is that I'm perfectly happy being an atheist. My life is fulfilling without belief in a higher power. Religion has always been a excuse to massacre countless millions in the past (and present). The Muslims and Christians have been fighting for thousands of years. "My god is better than your god" etc, that's enough to put a damper on the whole thing for me.
> 
> ...



I've had it explained away to me before, but never convincingly. I mean "LOL UR OLD AND BALD!" tick tick tick *"RRRRAAAAAARRRRRR!!!"*

Also, I think they were a bit hasty throwing Jezebel to the dogs, but maybe that's just me.


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## Deleted User (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Qpido @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Man, you don't even want to know what Scientology believes in.  That requires some higher level of thinking to understand that BS.
> ...



I've investigated enough.  The things I read about Scientology are very extreme ... and is part of your belief.  And this is only a small portion.  You're right, I didn't experience it at all ... but ... knowing what your faith is based on already, I don't need to even give it a "try".

Taken from: Xenu - Wikipedia
In Scientology doctrine, Xenu (also Xemu), pronounced /'zi.nu/, was the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of aliens to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to wreak chaos and havoc today.

When I say bullshit, I mean it's nonsense to me.  It just bewilders me how you can bring yourself to truly believe these ... teachings.  Because if anything sounds like nonsense, it's Scientology.  It sticks out like a sore thumb to me.  Where did Hubbard come up with this stuff?  Was he contacted by these aliens?  And don't you think it's a little strange that he was a Science Fiction writer?


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## Bowser128 (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Taken from: Xenu - Wikipedia
> In Scientology doctrine, Xenu (also Xemu), pronounced /'zi.nu/, was the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of aliens to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to wreak chaos and havoc today.
> 
> When I say bullshit, I mean it's nonsense to me.Â It just bewilders me how you can bring yourself to truly believe these ... teachings.Â Because if anything sounds like nonsense, it's Scientology.Â It sticks out like a sore thumb to me.Â Where did Hubbard come up with this stuff?Â Was he contacted by these aliens?Â And don't you think it's a little strange that he was a Science Fiction writer?




I don't see how that leap of faith is any more nonsensical than the ones you're supposed to take in other religions.


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## Sinkhead (Apr 18, 2007)

Just what I was going to say Bowser128
Anyway, my view on religion...
I am personally an agnostic. I'm a bit young and I don't live or go to school with any profoundly religious people so I don't know a lot about the religions.
In my view, faith can be compared to this:
When I go diving, I have faith in the valve on my air tank that it isn't going to break or rupture and I can continue breathing as normal. I can keep the valve working properly by checking it every so often and cleaning any bits of dirt that collect round the seal.
In life, I could have faith in God to guide me through life and do other Goddy things. God will like me better if I pray, go to church and follow the 10 comandments.

I have no problems if other people have a religion, unless they have a problem with me not having a religion.

- Sam


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

Its strange that most people on this forum are non-believers.

@Qpido, I respect your right to practice whatever you want, but do you think following a religion founded by a science fiction writer who was busted by the FBI numerous times indulging in pedophilia is the right choice?

I believe that everything is explained by logic and reason, can't explain something then just STFU and don't open your mouth.


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## Sinkhead (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> @Qpido, I respect your right to practice whatever you want, but do you think following a religion founded by a science fiction writer who was busted by the FBI numerous times indulging in pedophilia is the right choice?


Sorry if I'm mis-informed about Christianity, but do you think following a religion founded by a crazy guy who supposedly had magical God powers who was nailed to a cross and came back to life as a zombie is the right choice?

As above, this still counts:
I have no problems if other people have a religion, unless they have a problem with me not having a religion.

- Sam

*EDIT:* I think my view of Christianity has been warped by Monty Python...


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## Azimuth (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(sinkhead @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Sorry if I'm mis-informed about Christianity, but do you think following a religion founded by a crazy guy who supposedly had magical God powers who was nailed to a cross and came back to life as a zombie is the right choice?
> 
> As above, this still counts:
> I have no problems if other people have a religion, unless they have a problem with me not having a religion.
> ...



maybe the other 8 pages before this haven't convinced you, i dont care about religion/god, whatever branch it is. Just offering some insight into scientology.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This has always seemed stupid to me.  Atheists say that 7 days isn't long enough to create a universe, Christians say that a day can be a longer period of time than 24 hours... who cares.  

If a person is going to accept the creation of matter and energy and cycles and everything in the universe from nothing, there's no reason to argue about the length of time it would take to complete this impossible process.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Taken from: Xenu - Wikipedia
> ...



Exactly why I went through a brief stint where I actually called myself a Scientologist.  I figured that it was just a satire on other religions and all the members were just accepting the most off the wall shit possible.  If you took them seriously, it was because you didn't get the joke.

But no.  I was wrong.  I soon found out.


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## shakirmoledina (Apr 18, 2007)

I'll give my view based on my religion (Islamic Perspective)

Religion kills; Totally false because its not religion which causes war but actually discrimination between religion. God says in His book that killing another person on the context that he is from another religion is false totally but except on the fact that he is an evil person ( causes corruption etc) and if done so he has killed the whole of humanity (i.e. it's like a description of how bad it is)
Proof of God; Very simple cause and effect plus perfect creation
There are a total of approx. 100 billion Stars in the Universe and each is gigantic in size, ur saying it was not created by God... how then?
To make something come into existence it must be created by an external force as Matter can't be created or destroyed so who created it?
Cause and Effect states that "for every effect, there must a cause that causes that effect".. which means that everything which you see happening around you has to have a cause for it to happen... but for this chain of cause and effect to continue forever is not logical, hence there must be an absolute cause or the Ultimate Cause for everything that happens and that infact is God.
I'm sure we all know basic Chemistry so ill state an example from that. Atoms are made of protons, neutrons and electrons. Electrons revolve around the nucleus of the atom (which contains the protons and neutrons) in the most perfect manner possible without causing collisions at all. Who has put this perfect order into the atom? You may say its the intermolecular forces and electronic interactions etc. But in the end there must be some effect which not even the smartest scientist be able to explain. This is where the answer lies...The Ultimate Cause = God!

I'll quote a tradition from our books about an atheist who came to our 6th Holy Leader (Imam Jaffer ibn Mohammed). He claimed that he did not believe God existed. So Imam asked him "Have you ever been in a situation where you are about to die and there is no hope of living anymore and you can see death is near?".. The atheist replied "Yes, I was once sailing when a big storm came and I was sure I would not survive" ... So Imam asked him "Did you get the feeling and hope that Someone will save you?" To which the atheist agreed. The Imam told him "This inner feeling is the feeling of the existence of that supernatural entity Who is God".
Thus, the belief of God is innate in every human being, no matter how much he denies it.


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## cruddybuddy (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 17 2007 said:


> It's taboo to criticize religious faith or any convictions born from it.Â Religions are the area in which we tolerate dogma uncritically.Â To deny the holocaust ever happened, or to assert you're in dialog with extraterrestrials is pretty much synonymous with craziness in our culture.Â This is so because we challenge people when they strongly believe in things without evidence or in contradiction to a mountain of evidence ... except on matters of faith.
> 
> So let me get this straight.Â There's this invisible being called God.Â And this God is fully aware that 1) he never physically shows himself to anyone and 2) there's not more evidence for his existence than there is for unicorns.Â And yet under those conditions I'm expected to believe in him, and if I don't, I'll be damned to a fiery hell for eternity after I die, despite living a life of kindness, generosity and love for others?Â What a rip off!Â This outlines ONE of the many reasons why I'm an atheist.Â Its not that I choose not to believe in a god.Â You don't consciously CHOOSE to believe in something or not.Â You either do believe, or you don't.Â And I don't.Â My mind is just not capable of believing in something so ... extraordinarily ridiculous to me.Â Magical and invisible beings that can hear your thoughts may seem normal to others, but not to me.Â It angers me when people ask why I choose to be an atheist.Â I didn't CHOOSE to be an atheist!Â BELIEF IS NOT A CHOICE.Â I can't choose to believe in God!Â Can you choose to believe that my toenail clippings made the universe?Â Going to hell for INHERENTLY not believing in God just doesn't make any sense.Â And that's just the tip of the iceberg.Â I haven't mentioned walking on water, rising from the dead, or a talking bush.Â If I told those stories to a child, they'd most likely believe it.Â Children believe anything, which is why I think it's dangerous to teach those biblical stories as FACT.Â It amazes me how many grown adults believe in these magical, fairytale-like stories.Â I guess when you hear these stories over and over again, and are brought up being taught that these stories actually happened for a fact ... you tend to lose the sense of absurdity.Â The whole bible is filled with hundreds of examples of ... crazy things happening.Â No offence to Christians (or else I'd be offending a HUGE number of people), but I just can't understand how someone can devote their lives to something so crazy and truly "believe" the majority of what the bible says.Â If only you can see it from my eyes ...
> 
> ...



Wow, and you came up with this all on your own at the ripe age of 17 when highly educated theologians have been discussing topics of religion for several millenia? You're amazing!


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## Hitto (Apr 18, 2007)

I never understood that ongoing debate you guys have going on in the states between "intelligent design" and "evolution".

From what I remember, the torah and (maybe the bible too?) states that thousands of years seem like only a day to g.d. So, that doesn't contradict the whole seven days metaphor.
Why can't the religious freaks reconcile the fact that evolution was how He wanted it to happen, over thousands and thousands of millenia - which the bible calls mere days?
Evolution proves itself everyday. Remember how DDT stopped being useful against mosquitoes? Because these damn things have such short lifespans, evolving natural resistances against DDT took them only a few thousand generational cycles - attainable in a few man-years.

My point is, whether you believe in Him/Her/It or whether He/She/It is sentient (adding that part since someone called Darwin's work and science in general a religion - must... resist... urge... to... flame...) , g.d *gave* you a fucking brain. Use it and try not to be an asshole.


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## [M]artin (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Taken from: Xenu - Wikipedia
> In Scientology doctrine, Xenu (also Xemu), pronounced /'zi.nu/, was the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of aliens to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to wreak chaos and havoc today.


That's some Metroid-type shit, right there...


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Hitto @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Why can't the religious freaks reconcile the fact that evolution was how He wanted it to happen, over thousands and thousands of millenia - which the bible calls mere days?


Possibly because of the fact there was supposed to be no death (or carnivorism) at all until after Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden - millions of years of death and animals (and cave people) eating other animals doesn't really add up to that. To believe in evolution you might as well throw out the first part of Genesis entirely - and if that can't be trusted, why believe any of the rest? I think that's why it's such a hotly debated topic.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(shakirmoledina @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I'll quote a tradition from our books about an atheist who came to our 6th Holy Leader (Imam Jaffer ibn Mohammed). He claimed that he did not believe God existed. So Imam asked him "Have you ever been in a situation where you are about to die and there is no hope of living anymore and you can see death is near?".. The atheist replied "Yes, I was once sailing when a big storm came and I was sure I would not survive" ... So Imam asked him "Did you get the feeling and hope that Someone will save you?" To which the atheist agreed. The Imam told him "This inner feeling is the feeling of the existence of that supernatural entity Who is God".
> Thus, the belief of God is innate in every human being, no matter how much he denies it.



Oh.  I didn't know that we could use completely made up anecdotes about individuals and apply them to whole groups of people.

I talked to my Christian friend the other day about god.  I asked him "Have you ever seen god?" to which he responded "No."  Then I asked "Have shitty things ever happened to good people that you've known and you felt like there was no reason for it?"  And my friend said "Yeah.  Like the Virginia Tech shooting.  What kind of a god would let that happen?"

And then he recanted right then and there, I shit you not.

Thus, belief in god is asinine.


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Hitto @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Why can't the religious freaks reconcile the fact that evolution was how He wanted it to happen, over thousands and thousands of millenia - which the bible calls mere days?
> ...



Unless you want to be an absolutely terrible person, you'd better throw out about 75 percent of the old testament completely.  There's some really bad stuff in there.


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## Dirtie (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Unless you want to be an absolutely terrible person, you'd better throw out about 75 percent of the old testament completely.Â There's some really bad stuff in there.


I think that's a generalization and slightly over-exaggerated 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But sure, there's some strange stuff in there alright. I think a lot of it was directed at the Israelites at the time though, rather than something modern people should live by. There's still principles that people would do well to adhere to, and of course there's still the Ten Commandments which Jesus stated he never intended to replace - which I think we can agree that if everyone followed this'd be a much happier place (simply by "do not murder" alone).


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## Bowser128 (Apr 18, 2007)

You know what I absolutely *hate* hearing?
When people say "The universe had to be created by something, it couldn't have started on its own, everything has to have a creator, so it must have been God."
Fair enough, if that's the view of the religious people, the logical question for me to ask then is: who created god? The usual (blind) response is "Oh, that's different, those rules don't apply to God." 
What a load of rubbish, you can't just decide there's some universally infallible rule, that suddenly becomes fallible whenever you deem it necessary.


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## henry_uk (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I talked to my Christian friend the other day about god.Â I asked him "Have you ever seen god?" to which he responded "No."Â Then I asked "Have shitty things ever happened to good people that you've known and you felt like there was no reason for it?"Â And my friend said "Yeah.Â Like the Virginia Tech shooting.Â What kind of a god would let that happen?"
> 
> And then he recanted right then and there, I shit you not.
> 
> Thus, belief in god is asinine.



If your friend is a Christian, *and* he is your friend, what drives you to try to disprove the things he believes?


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## henry_uk (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Unless you want to be an absolutely terrible person, you'd better throw out about 75 percent of the old testament completely.Â There's some really bad stuff in there.



Have you read the whole of the Old Testament?


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## spokenrope (Apr 18, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Unless you want to be an absolutely terrible person, you'd better throw out about 75 percent of the old testament completely.Â There's some really bad stuff in there.
> ...



No.  I went to a Catholic school through middle school, and then in high school, I dated a girl for 5 years and attended her church bible study group religiously (rimshot).  I feel that I've got a pretty good grasp of the material.  And, as I said, 75 percent is an exaggeration.

Do you disagree that there's some passages in the old testament that are complete garbage and need to be ignored?


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## Qpido (Apr 18, 2007)

Nestea, you shouldn't read what people who are against Scientology write.
That Xenu thing isn't a teaching, when in auditing, you visit past lives.
That guy probably experienced that, or something similar or something, and this so called engram I mentioned earlier acted up and prevented him from his own will.

Scientologists believe a thetan is not evil, all man is good but because they have been suppressed they do bad things.

I can't possibly want you to understand, because it seems you have already made it a fact that you think it's nonsense.
But I don't think you're even allowed to talk about any religion whatsoever if u haven't experienced it first hand.

So ya...

Q~


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## noamkot (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(shakirmoledina @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> I'll give my view based on my religion (Islamic Perspective)
> 
> Religion kills; Totally false because its not religion which causes war but actually discrimination between religion. God says in His book that killing another person on the context that he is from another religion is false totally but except on the fact that he is an evil person ( causes corruption etc) and if done so he has killed the whole of humanity (i.e. it's like a description of how bad it is)
> Proof of God; Very simple cause and effect plus perfect creation
> ...



I agree with you that religion doesn't kill, not even Islam. It's people that kill and religion is just one reason of many.
But in other respects I believe you're wrong.
Electrons are not small circles that rotate around a core but this is rather a simplistic model that helps high school pupils grasp some of the concepts concerning atoms basic quantum physics.
If everything must be created by someone then who created God itself? If an unimaginably complex entity like God wasn't created by anyone wouldn't it be possible that the universe was created by a similar no one as well And if there are things that we don't understand and can't understand why does religion even try and bother?
Traditions are nice and Shi'a Islamic traditions are just as good as Sunni, Jewish or Christian traditions. They help strengthen the faith of those who already believe and starts to doubt but since even the last of great Shi'a Imams was not able to examine the heart and kidneys of men, one can also assume the inner feeling that the poor atheist felt during the storm in the middle of the sea was most likely sea sickness 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



And besides, I have learned never ever to believe those people that tell you what other people, who are totally different from them, think and what other people believe in. In today's world we have excellent sources of information to learn from ourselves that are more objective.
Peace.


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## shakirmoledina (Apr 19, 2007)

I'll just answer the "wrongs" that you raised..
Firstly, i agree electrons don't circle around in the simple way i mentioned..i just said to make a point...even if you do consider the various forces which make the electrons move, it is almost impossible for these forces to have come into existence on their own and considering the millions of atoms in this world...each with its own properties..i think you are getting my point.

And about the tradition that i quoted...i think you misunderstood me when i said "inner feeling". I didn't mean sea sickness or any gastrointestinal related problem. What i meant by feeling was not physical but rather mental/spiritual. This "feeling" is proof of God's existence.

And about who created God.. The answer is simple.. No one created God. He is beyond imagination. And you raise the point of having the universe created by chance. I'll give you a piece of information (fact) from scientists. They say to make a single amino acid (the constituent form of protein), the probability of it happening by chance is 1/100to the power of 450....that's pretty much impossible...(let alone the whole universe). Infact, I think one of the best ways to prove the existence of God is to learn Science. The amazing and fascinating laws of physics, the reactions of chemistry, the physiology of life, the majic of mathematics etc. everything leads you to wondering how is all this possible by chance? If you truly are ready to believe that God exists then I'm sure you will believe it once you just ponder upon the creation and realise its not all possible by chance.


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## serious_sean (Apr 19, 2007)

god isn't an answer to anything; it's an excuse not to provide an answer. Just because we can't understand something doesn't mean we should invent something like god, which is even more impossible.

It's so obvious! we know that ancient religions' gods were false! in the future, others will look at this culture the same way.

enough with the silliness; it's making all of humanity dumber to believe things that aren't true.


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## imgod22222 (Apr 19, 2007)

This seems to remind me of the Wii episode of south park....

A bunch of people and beavers fighting in a war..
Future dude: "OH MY SCIENCE!"
his head explodes.
Cartman: "OH MY GOD!"
Another future dude: "Haha! You believe in a supernatural being which doesn't exist!"
his head explodes.

I think it was between the united atheist alliance, united atheist league, and the allied atheist alliance.


Now, seriously, IMO: Religion is an excuse to tell people how you/others run your life. The church runs your life by saying god gave you free will, now attend mass and confess your sins to god or you will go to hell, etc.


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## noamkot (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(shakirmoledina @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> I'll just answer the "wrongs" that you raised..
> Firstly, i agree electrons don't circle around in the simple way i mentioned..i just said to make a point...even if you do consider the various forces which make the electrons move, it is almost impossible for these forces to have come into existence on their own and considering the millions of atoms in this world...each with its own properties..i think you are getting my point.
> 
> And about the tradition that i quoted...i think you misunderstood me when i said "inner feeling". I didn't mean sea sickness or any gastrointestinal related problem. What i meant by feeling was not physical but rather mental/spiritual. This "feeling" is proof of God's existence.
> ...



Seriously, I'm not getting your point... All those can't possibly, inner feeling, and the fact that you can't accept the idea that the world was not created by any thing or any one boil down to the fact that this is what you were educated upon.
You seem to quote statistics alot and say that there is no chance this and no chance that but where there are so many stars (as you mentioned) and each containing zillions of billions of molecules and atoms (as you also mentioned)... the probability for the creation of amino acids is suddenly not that odd...

I was told by my parents that there is no such thing as God and thus I never felt any strange unexplained spiritual feelings (even in the face of danger) or need to answer everything that I don't know or don't understand by saying that it's divine intervention. This is also why I don't happen to find any merit in the notion of God's existence, which you consider to be a noble concept. 
As a result of that I am not open and not ready and totally unwilling to believe in a God, which was first and foremost the God of my people, the abstract God which was created by my ancestors to silence questions and to control minds.

This is how I see things. I realize you don't agree with it as I don't agree with your beliefs but I respect your beliefs and everyone else's beliefs as long as they accept my right to hold my beliefs.


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## Dirtie (Apr 19, 2007)

Careful, this is getting on the verge of flaming.

serious_sean, your last comment is your opinion, so it should be stated as such, not as fact. It seems a bit like blatant provocation to me


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## trepid (Apr 19, 2007)

So does god have a belly button?


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## cruddybuddy (Apr 19, 2007)

For those of you wondering how God was created, it was a big bang. That should be the end of THAT ridiculous argument.

Oh, and as for using a lower case G when writing "god," well I can appreciate the point you're making, but it's a little silly. Most of us, Christians included, don't believe in Santa Claus, but we use capitalization because it is a proper name. Don't compromise your literary integrity to make an immature point.

Finally, and I offer this last argument not to convert or convince but to enlighten and stimulate your rational thinking skills. People who believe in God and hold intricate ideas and explanations for God's existence are not stupid or making desperate attempts to reconcile God with science. Rather, they are able to logically understand perspectives that not all of us can grasp in the same way.

Let me offer this example to illustrate my point with a game many of us have enjoyed. I was playing Super Paper Mario at my Father-in-law's house and he could not easily understand what was happening when I would switch between 2 and 3-D. In fact, it doesn't really make sense that a 3-D gap could be crossed with a 2-D bridge, but once you understand the concept of the game, you no longer question it. Logically, it is impossible, but you know something that those little 2-D goombas don't know. Considering most of the western world was perfectly happy with selling slaves a mere century ago, and Darwin's theories are practically babies in the eyes of world history, it's at least conceivable that there are things about our world, universe, even God, that is not understood. To think that anyone with a concept of God is ignorant is highly arrogant and frankly, unintelligent. Instead of adding more hate to the world, or pointing fingers at religious zealots (which, by the way, is what the VT shooter was doing) why can't we all accept that some people understand concepts of the universe differently from us. You might just discover that 3-D pipe hiding behind the fence.

By the way, if a religious fanatic tries to make you feel bad for not joining their religion, get over it. Nobody is taking away your right to be an arrogant know-it-all and life is full of annoyances so get used to it! Now if you'll excuse me, I have a vacuum cleaner salesman to escort from my property.


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## trepid (Apr 19, 2007)

I use a lower case g not to say I don't  believe, but because I'm referring to the philosophical idea of any god.  If I was talking about Christianity in particular I would use God.

But just to be a little immature... 

santa claus.


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## Sneakz (Apr 19, 2007)

Thank God someone like cruddybuddy posted, wow finally taking Religion of the defense. 

Dont mind my post count, I use to be a vistor here for a while, never really cared about creating accounts online.

Well back to the point, I have arguments like this with my Jewish freind (He's atheist but for the sake of his parents hes a Jew)

Anytime we argued it always went back to the famous question, Ill just quote him.

"Well if God created everything who created god?"

I always laugh at this question, why do atheist disbeleive that God could exist out of nowhere, but yet EXPECT me to beleive that an explosion came from NOTHING?!?!? 

So yah really whats harder to beleive.

A Divine being existing from nothing? Or a ... divine umm explosion existing from nothing.

BTW Can you guys really stop complaining about these 3 things

RELIGION CAUSES MURRRRDDEERRRRR

seriously killing happen for many reasons like possesion of material objects, don't blame religion for everything.

OH YAH! WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PICK THE WRONG RELIGON, YOU JUST WASTED YOUR TIME WORSHIPING THE WRONG GOD

... I cant really say you haven't, but really its about what you believe has the most understanding of God, then again if you don't believe in God yet, you shouldn't be worrying about which religion is right anyway.

Also, Don't act like the time you spend worshiping God could have been used for something better. Dropping 10 mins 5x a day WILL NOT KILL YOU.  (BTW I'm Muslim) and if you think a little umm mathematically, Your odds and way better than an atheists.


YOU CHRISTIANS ARE FORCING US TO BE CHRISTIAN!!!!

...Well maybe going door to door is a little pushy, but I know for fact that it is a sin not to offer someone you know a chance to join Islam, and you will be looked good upon if you do decide to spread the religion but hey, why did they Atheist dude make a topic in the first place? Don't tell me he wanted to just share his opinion, obviously he was looking for people to convert into nothing or just try to make religion look stupid.

ALSO STOP INSULTING RELIGION AND BELIEF AND GOD YOUR ALL ACTING LIKE ARROGANT BASTARDS SAYING THAT THOSE THAT BELIEVE ARE IDIOTS YOUR NOT BETTER THAN NO ONE YOUR HUMAN DON'T THINK THAT YOUR BELEIF IN EVOLUTION HAS MADE YOU ANY MORE INTELLIGENT.


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## spokenrope (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Thank God someone like cruddybuddy posted, wow finally taking Religion of the defense.



There have been several members on the board who have presented the argument for religion.  Otherwise, there wouldn't have been very much back and forth going on.


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## Sneakz (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As you could tell many of those who did post for the side of religion weren't that good and were being severely beaten by the atheists ... so it wasn't to good of a battle going back and forth


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## Sneakz (Apr 19, 2007)

Sorry spokenrope your right there were more than cruddybuddy that posted good points (like Dirtie)

I just got really lazy after the 6th page and just started reading in between the lines and ignoring posts aimed directly at ppl


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## chalupa (Apr 19, 2007)

applauds for Sneakz and Cruddy Buddy (good job bringing Mario into this)

I am going to reinforce the last statement as it was very well said.
as far as religion causes murder, don't be a Jack Thompson and point fingers at one subject, many things cause murder, how many people have we heard of being killed for a car or in attempt of stealing a car? I'm not trying to say that it was ok for those christians to kill but this is just another example of human stupidity. we can all agree that human stupidity makes many problems in our life.

Be happy that Christians that are spreading the gospel around are actually doing the job they are given. I think it has to do with our society making being a Christian being so convenient and mandatory that we have Christians that dont do a very good job at defending Christ and maybe join the religion just because its "family tradition." It would be better that these people would be ashiest than pretend Christians. Tragically pretend christians out-number true christians so a good chunk of our steriotypes are outputted to these standards.


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## lastdual (Apr 19, 2007)

Those who bash on "religion" are always good for a laugh. Blaming the world's problems on religion in general is like blaming poverty on "economics".

Furthermore, to say that religion is "bad" or "evil" is a self-contradicting statement, as objective values cannot exist apart from religion.

To say that any behavior or decision is objectively "better" than another, is to say that man is meant to live in certain way. Hence, there is a meaning for which man exists - and a "meaning" in this sense of the word can only be the fruit of a Mind (i.e.: God). In other words, if man is intended to live a certain way, there must be someone who intended it.

***

The basic philosophic question of origins yields two possible positions, either:

*Existence Precedes Essence*
(we simply exist, and then make up a reason after-the-fact)

-or-

*Essence Precedes Existence*
(there is a preexistent meaning for which man exists)

***

If you take the former position, all values must logically be relegated to a matter of personal opinion. There is no "true" or objective basis to say any action is good or evil. It's all a matter of opinion, and thus subjective and ultimately meaningless. This is a perfectly logical position to take, but, if one is intellectually honest, they should not then start making moral statement such as "religion is evil" - nothing is "evil", all positions are equally meaningless.

***

Religion is the basis of values. Furthermore, it is a realm of thought that, properly understood, is not in conflict with other realms such as science. Science is like the wrench in your hand - it is a means to an end - and it is neutral on the subject of values. If I hold a gun to your head, science can explain the velocity of the bullet and trajectory of the blood that splatters on the wall, but whether I *should* pull the trigger or not - that is essentially a religious question. 

Lastly, some like to soften their position by simply being against "organized religion". Please don't make this philosophic blunder... Language, by its nature, constitutes the organization of ideas. If you so much as tell someone else about your religious views, you've basically created an "organized religion". Maintain the right to correctly interpret your thoughts if someone misinterprets you, and now you have a "hierarchy of authority". This position is simply absurd.


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## Sneakz (Apr 19, 2007)

"There is no "true" or objective basis to say any action is good or evil. It's all a matter of opinion, and thus subjective and ultimately meaningless."

That's it, That is one of the greatest points you could have ever made. Thank you lastdual.

With out religion there would be no ethics, nothing to define what is good or evil. 

Religion tells us what to do and not to do, and that we base the rest of or decision on what stops us from killing our grandfathers for the inheritance etc.

BTW  I'm going to sleep now, Ill check back tomorrow, but really this pointless since were all obviously to ignorant to listen to the others opinion.


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## Legend (Apr 19, 2007)

My view on those that have views on religion, economy, war, politics, etc.


Don't waste your time. 99% of the time, nobody is really going to care about what you say or think, in regards to your "view", so ultimately - it doesn't matter.
It's great that you want to use your freedom of speech around 'ere, but I mean... it ain't gunna do much other than start a flamewar, or anythin' else.
I mean, look at the posts above mine. This topic is screaming, "FLAMEWARRRRRRZ!", even with just the threadname.

I need to look into becoming a mod around 'ere.
This is ridonculous.


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## Jiggah (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Sneakz @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> "There is no "true" or objective basis to say any action is good or evil. It's all a matter of opinion, and thus subjective and ultimately meaningless."
> 
> That's it, That is one of the greatest points you could have ever made. Thank you lastdual.
> 
> ...



Wow, this is just wrong.  Think about it.  How did we determine what was good in the Bible/Koran/Torah/etc.?  Morality and the idea of good and evil is something that we already have.  While some parts of the Bible strengthen these aspects, there are many parts the Bible and many of the religions have contradicting views on what is morality and moral behavior.  Should we stone people for working on the Sabbath?  Should we kill women who are not virgins when they are wed?  These are things that are in the Bible, yet many Christians don't adhere to them...I wonder why?  So the idea that religion is somehow a moral compass for us is wrong.  We decided what was moral in the Bible, therefore morality, the idea of good and evil, was already instilled in us before these religions popped up.


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## Bowser128 (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Religion is the basis of values.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you suggesting that those who have no religion have no morals? Your statements are, quite frankly, ridiculous. I'm an atheist, and I know right from wrong, I don't need the threat of an omnipotent overseer to stop me raping and killing people.


*Edit:* I was being an arse.


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## Azimuth (Apr 19, 2007)

The truth is the non-believers in this thread have nothing personal against religion, we aren't directly bashing religion. We are just providing evidence that some claims in religion totally contradict reason and logic, if you spout bull then be sure you have something to back it up.

@sneakz, your argument is flawed, just because someone doesn't believe in god doesn't mean he has no morals. So by your logic the only thing stoping you from stealing, raping and killing is some guy in the sky who will punish you, if you do believe this then you are the one who has no morals.

@shakirmoledina, I was born a muslim, but quickly lost touch. The stuff you are saying is the same taught to most muslims at an early age. That the beauty and uniqueness of this world can only be explained by an ultimate creator. But what you forget is the numerous flaws and faults that are all around us.What about all the useless things in this world that have no function but still exist, this obviously could not happen if a perfect creator did design the world. The feeling you attribute to god has been studied and determined to be a hormonal release at times of high meditation or prayer.

@cruddybaby, so your only answer to the question of god is that it is too great for us to understand?

Could people please argue in a respectful manner, you don't have to name call and capitalize every letter to get your point across


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## NetixRiqua (Apr 19, 2007)

religion is created for evil people by the good people... and yer another atheist is right here!

religion is like a universal rule guideline


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## Dirtie (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Religion is the basis of values.
> ...


Edit: See lastdual's post below 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







And cruddybuddy, your Super Paper Mario analogy for the existence of God (or a god) was excellent, and I have in fact heard the "dimension analogy" elsewhere before. (I knew you were clever, but didn't know you could be serious as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

Here is how I would describe it:

Lets say you were a 2D person on a 2D plane, and there were other 2D people on that plane. When you saw another person, they would simply appear to you as a line, as you would to them (actually you would see nothing, since a plane has no depth - which even serves to illustrate my point further, but let's keep it simple for now).

Now lets say there was a 3D person, capable of moving through 3D space, which the 2D plane I just described resided in. If any part of the 3D person intersected that plane, you would still only see a line (or series of lines, as a cross-section). That 3D person could simply appear to disappear, and what's more, they would be able to view the entire plane and the inhabitants on it in full, and even affect them in ways they couldn't possibly imagine (or they'd have a hard time at least) - such as blowing on them or speaking to them. Yet those inhabitants have no idea what the mysterious lines are, or where the mysterious lines or chilly wind or voice originate from (they can't even perceive what they themselves look like in full). The most they can do is make guesses and theories, unless the 3D person explains to them directly.

Even this could be a sufficient theoretical analogy for God (with God being the 3D person obviously). But let's say you took it one or two steps further instead, and had a person/being that could move through time (which is logically the 4th dimension), or the dimension after that (the space-time continuum perhaps?), etc etc - do you see what I'm trying to say here?

Obviously we reside in the 3rd dimension, so using the same idea, God could reside in any dimension greater in number than this one (and possibly move between them). Only a person/being (in this case God) residing in a dimension greater in number than another dimension, can observe (and affect) the lesser dimension in full. 

At least, that all makes logical sense to me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Super Paper Mario illustrates the idea in such a simplistic and clever fashion, I applaud Nintendo (I think Sega also has a similar upcoming game for PSP) for thinking outside the box


----------



## lastdual (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Are you suggesting that those who have no religion have no morals? Your statements are, quite frankly, ridiculous. I'm an atheist, and I know right from wrong, I don't need the threat of an omnipotent overseer to stop me raping and killing people.



I think some are misinterpreting the logic here.

It's perfectly possible for an atheist to _*have*_ values. However, let's say my values conflict with yours. Which one of us is right? Is there some universal truth in values that we can appeal to? Who interprets this truth? Where did this truth come from? Why should we follow it anyways - especially if there is no afterlife and I'm in a position to better myself here and now?

It's nearly impossible to live without a value system, but an intelligent atheist understands that, by nature of taking the former of the origin scenarios I described above (existence precedes essence), such values as held by an atheist must be viewed as merely a matter of opinion.

Thus, a real atheist will conclude that there is no "truth" in values. The great atheistic philosophers throughout history have understood this.


----------



## Jiggah (Apr 19, 2007)

It's easy to just say "morality is derived from religion," but seriously take a look at all the religious texts.  They all have contradictory moral values, which is something people always seem to want to avoid.  The fact that we as a society have to decide what is the real moral value in those contradictions already shows that morality is outside the limits of religion.  Therefore, morality is not something religion has created nor is it necessary to have religion to be moral.  Also, the term "survival of the fittest" is a misnomer to what Evolution is all about.  Evolution is not about "survival of the fittest," it's about survival of a population who are best adapted to their environment over time.  It would be easy to say, we have morality because as the human population, we need more than a single individual to survive thus it would be beneficial for us to be good to our neighbors whether they are extremely healthy or they are blind and meek because we need the genetic diversity.

The idea of God being outside our realm works against religion.  If God is really outside our realm of understanding, what makes religion the answer to understanding God?  How can any religion make the claim that they are the one true religion, if they lack the understanding of this God.  The most both sides (science and the different religions) can say is that they don't know what or who God is and therefore religions and their texts have no relevancy to God.  So, we should just ignore religion anyway.


----------



## bronney (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Now lets say there was a 3D person, capable of moving through 3D space, which the 2D plane I just described resided in. If any part of the 3D person intersected that plane, you would still only see a line (or series of lines, as a cross-section). That 3D person could simply appear to disappear, and what's more, they would be able to view the entire plane and the inhabitants on it in full, and even affect them in ways they couldn't possibly imagine (or they'd have a hard time at least) - such as blowing on them or speaking to them. Yet those inhabitants have no idea what the mysterious lines are, or where the mysterious lines or chilly wind or voice originate from (they can't even perceive what they themselves look like in full). The most they can do is make guesses and theories, unless the 3D person explains to them directly.


You got that from super paper mario right?


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## Dirtie (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Jiggah @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> The idea of God being outside our realm works against religion.Â If God is really outside our realm of understanding, what makes religion the answer to understanding God?Â How can any religion make the claim that they are the one true religion, if they lack the understanding of this God.Â The most both sides (science and the different religions) can say is that they don't know what or who God is and therefore religions and their texts have no relevancy to God.Â So, we should just ignore religion anyway.
> 
> I don't see how you came to that conclusion. The objective was never to understand God (in Christianity at least), but to obey him and love him etc - why else do you think faith comes into the equation? Like I said in my analogy, evidence can be presented both directly and indirectly - if you believe in the Bible, that is an example of indirect evidence, which also contains accounts of direct encounters. Like what has already been said, some people claim to find evidence in the workings of nature, and so on.
> 
> ...


Nope, not at all. Like I said I was already aware of the analogy before Super Paper Mario was around


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## lastdual (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Jiggah @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> It's easy to just say "morality is derived from religion," but seriously take a look at all the religious texts.Â They all have contradictory moral values, which is something people always seem to want to avoid.Â The fact that we as a society have to decide what is the real moral value in those contradictions already shows that morality is outside the limits of religion.Â Therefore, morality is not something religion has created nor is it necessary to have religion to be moral.Â Also, the term "survival of the fittest" is a misnomer to what Evolution is all about.Â Evolution is not about "survival of the fittest," it's about survival of a population who are best adapted to their environment over time.Â It would be easy to say, we have morality because as the human population, we need more than a single individual to survive thus it would be beneficial for us to be good to our neighbors whether they are extremely healthy or they are blind and meek because we need the genetic diversity.
> 
> The fact that there are different religions is only ingored because it is irrelevant. Applying logic and reason to different religious doctrines to determine their credibility - and analysing them by the principle of non-contradiction - are perfectly good enterprises. However, the gist of this thread has been about establishing the logic basis for religion itself. If many are not even willing to entertain that religious thought in general is reasonable, the prospect of debating individual religions is absurd. - If one does not accept the existence of God, why argue about which idea of God is more correct?
> 
> ...



The definition of God is an infinite being. Man is a finite being. Thus, it's absurd to expect man to be able to fully comprehend God. This does not mean that man cannot grasp anything about God, or that some such thoughts might be more correct than others. Nor does it make the idea of a single religion being correct absurd - such religion would merely need to be on the correct side of any positions wherein other religions differed.

Furthermore, imagine a religion that proclaims "our doctrine is not any more true than any other religion". Such a religion would have declared itself irrelevant. Clearly, the religion that claims to hold the truth is at least starting from a more logical position.


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## bronney (Apr 19, 2007)

Dirtie, here's something different but related 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave


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## Dirtie (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(bronney @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Dirtie, here's something different but related
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that - I couldn't really pick up what it was trying to convey exactly (even by the article it looks like it's open to interpretation), but the idea is quite similar


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## Jiggah (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Jiggah @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > It's easy to just say "morality is derived from religion," but seriously take a look at all the religious texts.Â They all have contradictory moral values, which is something people always seem to want to avoid.Â The fact that we as a society have to decide what is the real moral value in those contradictions already shows that morality is outside the limits of religion.Â Therefore, morality is not something religion has created nor is it necessary to have religion to be moral.Â Also, the term "survival of the fittest" is a misnomer to what Evolution is all about.Â Evolution is not about "survival of the fittest," it's about survival of a population who are best adapted to their environment over time.Â It would be easy to say, we have morality because as the human population, we need more than a single individual to survive thus it would be beneficial for us to be good to our neighbors whether they are extremely healthy or they are blind and meek because we need the genetic diversity.
> ...



The first part has nothing to do with God at all.  In fact, it has to do with the idea of morality based solely on religion...if there's no religion we'd all be beating each other and raping women that was the claim I was responding to.  Morality is not religiously based as many want to claim.  If we are going to apply logic and reason to the religious doctrine, we might as well apply it to the religion itself, right.  The problem here is that religions blanket themselves in their texts.  The Bible/Koran/Torah/etc. says this is true so it must be true.

How do you know he's a infinite being?  You've just made that claim of understanding of what or who he is, that he's infinite.  How do you know he isn't some weird alien being from galaxy X?  This seems to be extremely illogical that you would make a claim of understanding God to say that we can't understand him.

One religion that claims to hold the truth would seem logical, if that religion could bring forth concrete evidence of that claim.  No one religion has yet, hence why we have conflicting religions, in fact it's so conflicting, we have different sects within different religions.


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## cruddybuddy (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> @cruddybuddy, so your only answer to the question of god is that it is too great for us to understand?



No, I said that some people get it; to others it doesn't make sense. Even a 2-D goomba gets a glimpse of Paper Mario every once in a while... right before it gets it's cranium inverted of course.

@Dirtie: Thank you for the compliment. See, proof for the existence of God was in Super Paper Mario all along. Humanity just needed to wait until we were ready for it.


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## serious_sean (Apr 19, 2007)

the paper mario analogy is valid, but it still doesn't mean that god exists. 

i'm not saying that it's true, but extra-dimensional beings could have created humankind and the world. But these beings, like humans, would have had to arise from natural selection. 

omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving gods cannot exist because they themselves are logical impossibilities. If you choose to define god as something else, like the wonder that fills each of us when we gaze up at a starry sky, then we can find god anywhere. 

Of course, this type of god is different than the sky faerie of organized religions.

Lastly, I'm not trying to offend anyone, and I'm sorry if anyone is hurt by what I'm saying. I simply find this exasperating.
If you are on the fence about all of this, try reading the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It can help to view religion from a scientific point of view.


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## Deleted User (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Nestea80 @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Taken from: Xenu - Wikipedia
> ...



When I ask that question ... I get a cryptic response like"God has always been and always will be" ... whatever that means.

Oh, and about the whole Paper Mario analogy ... yeah, I agree that there can be extra dimensions that we just aren't able to see.  A god CAN exist.  A purple invisible unicorn can also be a god.  Just because there CAN be a god, doesn't mean there IS a god.  I can say that a purple invisible unicorn made the whole universe.  He is totally undetectable and loves all of you.  Maybe THAT'S the true god!  It comes down to believing what's more likely and more sensible.  No proof of god has ever come up, which is why I don't believe in god.  It's normal to think that way.  If you believe a god exists, why did you quickly choose the Christian god when there are plenty of other religions out there to choose from?  The most likely answer is that you were brought up with a certain religion.  What makes the christian god any more likely to be a god over Zeus or Brahma?  There are many religions out there ... what makes you think yours is any different from the rest?  Is it really hard to believe that the religion your follow is just as synthetic as any other?  Christians have their own testimonies, fine.  A Christian would say they feel the holy spirit and were blessed when praying to God.  But I know Buddhists who say they've been blessed with good fortune after praying to Buddha.  So what's going on here?  And this is just taking two religions for an example.  It shows that people have the ability to think certain things are happening when they really aren't, assuming nobody is lying.  What makes you so sure that you're not fooling yourself?


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## lastdual (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Jiggah @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> The first part has nothing to do with God at all.  In fact, it has to do with the idea of morality based solely on religion...if there's no religion we'd all be beating each other and raping women that was the claim I was responding to.  Morality is not religiously based as many want to claim....
> 
> Ung... we seem to be thinking on different levels here.
> 
> ...



We're talking about concepts here. The word "God" has a definition. These differ between the Western and Eastern traditions (God as Person vs God as Force), but we've mainly been discussing the Western sense of the word, by which God is defined as an infinite being in all positive respects. 

So I "know" because that's what the word means. The same way I "know" a triangle has exactly 3 corners - _because that's part of the concept's definition_. We're not talking about whether I "know" that God created us or even exists, that's another matter (again the question of existence vs essence, both positions may logically be held, but please at least understand the implications of them...).

*@aslacker55 VV *- Science does not say "something must have created God". There is no conflict between God and science. Science is the study of the laws by which the universe operates. It says nothing about whether those laws were the fruit of a supernatural being or not. Moreover, if such a being exists, it's logical to assume said being has power over the laws it authored.


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## aslacker55 (Apr 19, 2007)

I just want to ask you guys to think about what I'm about to say. No flaming

God created everything, but according to science something must also have created  God, but if that was true then something  created the entity that created God. And so on and so on, but according to science something can't come from nothing. There has to have been a beginning to all of this or we would not be here, but that would also mean that the entity that started all of this must be beyond the rule of science. That entity is what most people call the Creator (GOD), in my opinion.


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## kaoken (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(aslacker55 @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> I just want to ask you guys to think about what I'm about to say. No flaming
> 
> God created everything, but according to science something must also have createdÂ God, but if that was true then somethingÂ created the entity that created God. And so on and so on, but according to science something can't come from nothing. There has to have been a beginning to all of this or we would not be here, but that would also mean that the entity that started all of this must be beyond the rule of science. That entity is what most people call the Creator (GOD), in my opinion.



According to your logic, I can also say that there is a random event beyond the rule of science that caused the beginning.


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## Jiggah (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Jiggah @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > The first part has nothing to do with God at all.Â In fact, it has to do with the idea of morality based solely on religion...if there's no religion we'd all be beating each other and raping women that was the claim I was responding to.Â Morality is not religiously based as many want to claim....
> ...



Again, religion would be a really bad foundation for the "why" of values.  The contradictions in many religions themselves give the reason why this is a bad way to live.  Also, this doesn't explain the "why" for other animals' altruistic behaviors, who clearly have no religion whatsoever.

I think as someone posted earlier, we aren't just talking about the concept of an infinite being.  We are talking about an infinite being by definition that loves everyone, everything, and knows all.  Which as they point out is a logical impossibility?

If there is a God.  As a scientist, you should be asking where did he come from?  You wouldn't just say "okay, well he's there, no need to ask anything about him" or "well, he's outside our range of understanding, so let's no even try."  In science, nothing not even God should be outside the realm of questioning.


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## aslacker55 (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(kaoken @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> QUOTE(aslacker55 @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I just want to ask you guys to think about what I'm about to say. No flaming
> ...



Yup, it could have been an event, but it could also be an entity. We just don't know. It all comes down to blind faith. Do you have it or not.


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## Dirtie (Apr 19, 2007)

Jiggah, I think if you want to argue that angle, it comes down to conscience. The point is your conscience has to originate from somewhere. Evolutionists would likely say that it is defined by your upbringing and environment. Christians would likely say that it is given to us by God (many believe conscience to be the voice of God himself). Therefore you reach a impasse (a deadlock).


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## Jiggah (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(aslacker55 @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(kaoken @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(aslacker55 @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> ...



Last I recalled, those with blind faith were called fundamentalists.


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## lastdual (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Jiggah @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Again, religion would be a really bad foundation for the "why" of values.  The contradictions in many religions themselves give the reason why this is a bad way to live.  Also, this doesn't explain the "why" for other animals' altruistic behaviors, who clearly have no religion whatsoever.
> 
> I think as someone posted earlier, we aren't just talking about the concept of an infinite being.  We are talking about an infinite being by definition that loves everyone, everything, and knows all.  Which as they point out is a logical impossibility?
> 
> ...



Honestly, if someone can't understand that _by definition of the concept, God precedes all else_, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors. 

In any case, must sleep...


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## aslacker55 (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Jiggah @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Last I recalled, those with blind faith were called fundamentalists.



I guess the only way we'll know who's right is when we die. But if there is no God, we'll never know the answer, since that there will be no afterlife.


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## Legend (Apr 19, 2007)

Eh wow.
This shit is still continuing. Surprised that a mod hasn't shut this down yet... Though I must give kudos to everyone for SEEMING to remain civil...


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## cruddybuddy (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Eh wow.
> This shit is still continuing. Surprised that a mod hasn't shut this down yet... Though I must give kudos to everyone for SEEMING to remain civil...



Precisely, we only SEEM to be civil. In actuality, we are behaving like savage... monkeys.


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## Azimuth (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Honestly, if someone can't understand that _by definition of the concept, God precedes all else_, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors.
> 
> In any case, must sleep...



looks like your just side stepping questions and arguments by declaring god above question or thought, seems to be a common theme in this thread.


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## ediblebird (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 18 2007 said:


> Instead of listening solely to what your church tells you, assess your own beliefs, educate yourself, and make up your own mind.



This is exactly right, dont be a sheep, If a priest or whoever says something, check it out, thoroughly. After you have done that then come to a decision. Too many people have the habit of taking other peoples word for truth.


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## Dirtie (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, if someone can't understand that _by definition of the concept, God precedes all else_, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors.
> ...


Are you sure? Because lastdual has some of the most well formed and logical arguments in this thread. You're also missing the point I think - maybe it is you that is sidestepping the argument? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




It is getting close to personal attacks however (lastdual may have provoked it with his last comment) - keep it civil


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## serious_sean (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Dirtie @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Are you sure? Because lastdual has some of the most well formed and logical arguments in this thread. You're also missing the point I think - maybe it is you that is sidestepping the argument?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a logical fallacy; appeal to authority. Just because someone has informed opinions on one thing doesn't make him right. Using god as an excuse for ignorance is side-stepping any responsibility to learn. 

If history is any indication, many things that are now attributed to god ( the origin of life on Earth, for example ) will be scientifically discovered and documented, just like the origin of species. Another section of the holy books will go from literal to allegorical.

With every passing day, god runs out of places to hide. It's almost as if he weren't there at all...


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## Dirtie (Apr 19, 2007)

Did you even read his posts? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





Anyway, I'm staying out of this now, it seems like it's taking a downward turn - it usually isn't long until people voice their opinion in a not-so-nice way (indeed, as certain people have already). Previous threads dealing with religion on this board have all been shut down a lot faster than this one has been left to run.

Also, a forum that deals mainly with the subject of piracy is inherently going to attract more people with a certain opinion, than those with another, if you know what I mean.


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## Hitto (Apr 19, 2007)

I'm sorry, but I disagree :

"Honestly, if someone can't understand that by definition of the concept, God precedes all else, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors."

You're basing this argument on a man-made definition. Man defines g.d, thus Man INVENTS g.d. Then, Man mocks scientists who bear the burden of proof, while the guru doesn't. It's unfair. And, it's considered blasphemy.


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## spokenrope (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(cruddybuddy @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Legend @ Apr 18 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Eh wow.
> ...



Proof that we all evolved from monkeys.  Just like your avatar illustrates.   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Overall, I think that we're doing a good job remaining civil to each other in this thread.  I didn't get to read any of the posts that have gotten deleted, but it seems that we're just debating points without resorting to ad hominem attacks.


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## lastdual (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, if someone can't understand that _by definition of the concept, God precedes all else_, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors.
> ...



Hitto, *ALL* arguments are based on man-made definitions. All _language_ is based on man-made definitions. Language is the structured defining of ideas into a communicable medium (words).

However, just because man defines a concept into words, does not mean that the concept itself does not exist apart from man. And please, no one here is attacking any scientists for blasphemy... Scientific thought and religious thought are not mutually exclusive.


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## mthrnite (Apr 19, 2007)

Be with you guys in a minute...




.. just gotta finish this level.


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## imgod22222 (Apr 19, 2007)

Hmm... returning quickly to the paper mario theory (which i do agree can be easily vaild)

1) Why must God exist in a dimension above our own? Since planes technically have no depth, God can exist in the first dimesion where no one can see him
2) If god is 3d and we are 2d (a similar analogy), then when he crosses our plane can be explained in the wierd things that happen (not like a 7 yr old grilled cheese sandwich bearing a resemblance to jesus, but like a statue of the virigin mary crying, since that is truely a miracle (defies most science, not a strange coincidence like cheese-mold))

but that's trying to define God, which is impossible, if not blasphemy.
However, trying to define religion is something different, which often leads to flaming.

Oh yeah, and earlier in this thread (i think page 11) a practicer of the Muslim religion complained about Christians coming to their door. I want to know: Were they really Christians or Jehovah's Witnesses? Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the rapture will happen at any time, and they want to save people, and the only way to do that according to their religion is to be a Jehovah's Witness, and people who don't convert are evil because they are denying God (in the eyes of a Jehovah Witness).


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## Sinkhead (Apr 19, 2007)

- Sam


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## Azimuth (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(lastdual @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Good morning
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the question isn't the beginning, its obvious that there was a beginning otherwise we wouldn't be here  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . What I have a problem with is believing the "beginning" actually bears thought and is highly directed in how it chose to create itself and the world. If something came before the beginning then it is the beginning. But now we are just getting into meaningless loops of philosophy and semantics.


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## Sneakz (Apr 19, 2007)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-811321280634119479

Check it out, If you seriously want proof that God is real, and your not posting  here as some kind of joke, watch this video starting from 3:42 

Its a Islamic Leader addressing Atheism and what ways to convert them, he starts by congratulating Atheist because they are actually thinking besides blindly following the religion of their parents, and he shows why thats the first step into becoming a muslim.

Excuse his harsh accent, But you'll get his point and he backs it up with proof from where he gets it from in the Quran . 

This vid DIRECTLY ADDRESS ATHEIST AS IF HE WAS TALKING TO SOMEONE INFRONT OF THEM (Hes doing a presentation somewhere but thats not important)


( If the link doesn't work google search Atheists must watch this video from 3:42. Amazing Zakir Naik on Atheism, Atheist)

I really hope EVERYONE here watches the video, its only 15mins long minus the first 3mins, the first 3mins addresses a previous question)


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## Bowser128 (Apr 19, 2007)

QUOTE(Sneakz @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-811321280634119479
> 
> Check it out, If you seriously want proof that God is real, and your not postingÂ here as some kind of joke, watch this video



The first thing I have a problem with in your post is the fact that you seem to be suggesting that atheists are only posting here to 'find out' God is real, which is a tad insulting.

The second thing I have a problem with is the video, so the guy knows how to impress a Muslim audience, that doesn't mean he's presenting anything compelling to a non-Muslim. One of the many things that irked me was his stating an 'urban myth' as if it were truth. To say that everyone before the 16th century believed the earth was flat is just a lie, the Ancient Greeks even wrote about the 'spherical' nature of the earth, which far pre-dates Sir Francis Drake and Islam if I'm not very much mistaken.

I consider myself unconverted (anyone who lies to get their point across is not worth listening to).

Edited for the guy below me: Only a few writers ever wrote about the world being flat, the _majority_ believed it was round.


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## Bowser128 (Apr 20, 2007)

QUOTE(Shiro786 @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> Anyways, yes, Islam and Ancient Greece already knew that the Earth was spherical. But that's the minority. Proof:
> 
> "...Following Washington Irving's myth-filled 1828 biography of Columbus, Americans commonly believed Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because Europeans thought the Earth was flat..."
> 
> ...


it seems that that applies to you too.


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## skullstatue (Apr 20, 2007)

QUOTE(Shiro786 @ Apr 19 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Sneakz @ Apr 19 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-811321280634119479
> ...



Google Piri Reis Map.


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## Sneakz (Apr 20, 2007)

Sorry really to lazy to verify your references, but we ALL know wikipedia has the most accurate info 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, none the less they were MANY points Zakir Naik raised and just cause (If your info is true) ONE of those points are umm wavy (for lack of a better word, I know there is one its on the tip of my tongue) DOESN'T MEAN HIS ENTIRE MESSAGE IS FLAWED, he proves that things that we just recently discovered (such as the sun rotating) WAS KNOWN 1400 YEARS AGO, How is this possible? THERES NO WAY the could have figured this out on their own with there technology, raises a lot of questions, no?

Yah I know you said excuse me for nit picking but really I had to.


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## Sneakz (Apr 20, 2007)

Also sort of lost but it seems that your arguing people thought the world was flat "Even so, there is still proof before the 16th century era, that many people believed the world was flat. " 

Are you trying to say that no one read, or took the Quran seriously at the time? Cause thats not the point. 1400 years ago It was written in the Quran that the world was spherical (Like the shape of an ostrich egg to quote the Quran) Even though there was no means of figuring this out at the time...


Also to any who missed it WATCH THIS VIDEO ITS A REALLY GOOD VID ON RELIGION
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-811321280634119479

Please do, It will make you think twice before you post, really.


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## Azimuth (Apr 20, 2007)

QUOTE(Sneakz @ Apr 20 2007 said:


> Also sort of lost but it seems that your arguing people thought the world was flat "Even so, there is still proof before the 16th century era, that many people believed the world was flat. "
> 
> Are you trying to say that no one read, or took the Quran seriously at the time? Cause thats not the point. 1400 years ago It was written in the Quran that the world was spherical (Like the shape of an ostrich egg to quote the Quran) Even though there was no means of figuring this out at the time...
> 
> ...



are you a muslim? if you are then read the kafirun surah and keep quiet

Your posts are very immature, stop double posting, capitalizing and attacking people. We get it, you think god is great, if you can't argue in a civil manner don't argue at all. 

You also realize that the quran is written in poetry right, and that poetry is hard to fully comprehend, this Zakir Naik is one voice among millions. 

Maybe read the quran in its original context(arabic) and make up your mind, rather than blindly following the words of one man.

also id like the surah and line about the earth being spherical to verify your claims


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## mthrnite (Apr 20, 2007)

I grow weary of this thread...
.. you cats need to find a bar.


.. a juice bar even.

Locking down in the next couple of pages, so try real hard to sum it up, k?


Massive respect to all you guys for having the intestinal fortitude to bash your heads against this brickiest of brick walls.

mthr

edit: if you _reaaaally_ think I'm being too hasty let me know.


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## Sneakz (Apr 20, 2007)

... sigh, I was hoping that maybe your views would change after watching the video but It really doesn't seem to effect your belief in nothing.

Zakir Naik backs up all his points with the exact iyah (I think thats how you right the Arabic in English) he gets it from, I cant recall it right now but If you watch the video again pay attention to what chapter and verse number he gives you

If you want to insult me for my 1 double post or capitals go ahead but really just respond to the video its a lot easier for me ok?

Also I do know how to read Arabic (I use to go to Dugsi, I really should start going again) but no I don't understand anything I'm reading at all so of course I would need an English version of the Quran or someone to interpret it, and as long as a speaker gives you the verse and chapter he gets it from (and you should verify this but I'm just taking his word for it because what reason would he have to lie to the crowd) Its valid and shouldn't be questioned from then on or else you would be saying the Quran is wrong.

You being x-Muslim should know what I mean by this have obviously memorized a couple of chapters from the Quran yourself.


Also to the Mod, lock the topic when you see It's not going anywhere or If people just constantly insult each other. then Ill hit a bar. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Wa Alaikum Assalam Shiro786


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## Bowser128 (Apr 20, 2007)

QUOTE(mthrnite @ Apr 20 2007 said:


> Locking down in the next couple of pages, so try real hard to sum it up, k?
> mthr
> 
> 
> ...


Is there one at the hotel?


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## jtroye32 (Apr 20, 2007)

I believe in the theory of intelligent design. it supports the theories of religous gods but doesn't at all imply that all powerful gods were the intelligence behind everything/anything


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## Parsaw (Apr 20, 2007)

My religion is candy.


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## jtroye32 (Apr 20, 2007)

it pretty much says humans and everthing else are too advanced and complex to have become out of random happening such as natural selection and processes such as evolution. 

an analogy would be spilling ink onto a piece of paper and using a fountain pen to write something. out of the almost infinite possibilities of ink to paper one would conclude that there was some kind of intelligence behind the writing rather than a random spilling of ink.


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## mthrnite (Apr 20, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 20 2007 said:


> QUOTE(mthrnite @ Apr 20 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Locking down in the next couple of pages, so try real hard to sum it up, k?
> ...


C'mon guys, work it! I'm expecting a definitive answer on the whole God/no God/which God question, and I want it on my desk by tomorrow at 7 am.

..and guys I want to see some footprints in the sand on this one!


Seriously though, I've decided to keep the thread open as long as you guys stay civil and respectful toward/of each other.

Remember, the devil's in the details.

Onward through the fog, soldiers!


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## jtroye32 (Apr 20, 2007)

well i'm supposed to be a christian. but if "God" loves his children so much why would he make his children suffer over some bet with satan. a father should not bet his children like pawns. also heaven is supposed to be a divine place with no war/arguments... so why does satan even exist?


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## Veho (Apr 20, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 20 2007 said:


> QUOTE(mthrnite @ Apr 20 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I grow weary of this thread...
> ...


Well, there's the minibar   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



But I think Frank the rabbit spider monkey ate all the peanuts.


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## shaffaaf27 (Apr 20, 2007)

its for a test for faith....its like if you bring up 2 animals and one decides to bite you in the hand, you would want it near you would you?

so the earth is a test


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## mthrnite (Apr 20, 2007)

QUOTE(RAM @ Apr 20 2007 said:


> its for a test for faith....its like if you bring up 2 animals and one decides to bite you in the hand, you would want it near you would you?
> 
> so the earth is a test


So the earth is the testing area...
.. who's the moderator? Not me I hope, I've already got my hands full.

Seriously, I have a hard time with the whole "I will be invisible to you so that you can choose to be faithful" thing. In my opinion, if God was worth his salt, he'd pop in every once in a while and say, "Hey guys, I exist!" and give everybody a legitimate choice. And by "once in a while" I don't mean every 2000 years. Really how hard would it be. Feeling his presence just isn't enough, do something, anything that can't easily be brushed away as a feeling. Sometimes I think somebody's behind me, and I turn around and there's somebody there, sometimes there isn't, feelings are deceptive that way, you either know or you don't, and knowing means experiencing with our senses. So God just needs to do something tangible and concrete. I don't need a fuzzy transparent God. If he's truly "all that" he'd be able to end the confusion pretty quick, and without a ton of people going to hell because they didn't trust their "feelings" as fact. I mean hey, Jesus let Thomas feel his wound, and didn't condemn him to hell for doubting. That's all I'm talkin' about. Even Jesus the historical figure is elusive. From what I've read anyway, the only historical records of him come from the Christians, and nobody else of note has any records of his existence at all. Fuzzy... and it's hard to take a devoutly religious person's word for anything, because they have a vested interest in their "truth". So until something of substance happens, I'll just go about my way and not think about it too much.


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## Azimuth (Apr 20, 2007)

Some "notes" on the video, tackled these questions he proposes and his ayahs. I found some errors and some obvious word twisting to get his point across.

-Hijab is not mentioned at all in the quran, and was briefly mentioned in hadith, but as we know hadith isn't 100% accurate since anyone could contribute to it. And as usual it got swept into mainstream religion by the fanatics.

-After he mentions that the big bang was depicted in the quran,
"Walam yara allathina kafaru ina al samawati wal ard kanta rutkin fa3ataqnahum"

literally: for those non-believers who do not see that the sky(heavens) and the earth where joined until we seperated them.

I don't know how this proves the quran had big bang theory but obviously this guy speaks arabic better than me.... except that he doesnt. This could be referring to the creation of earth only, since the surah goes on to talk about how life is arising in the seas.

-His moon reflection theory really amused me, it all hangs upon the word moonir in the last sentence of the verse. If you take this in context it means gleaming or shining moon(lit moon), moonawar for example just means lit up and has absolutely nothing to do with the moon.

He keeps saying the quran contained the information already, then why didn't you figure it out before science, see the contradiction here? The same thing he bashes is the thing his whole argument is based on.

I hope I proved to you that just because someone quotes the quran it doesn't mean he is interpreting it correctly, there are thousands of varying opinions and making your own differentiates you from the other sheep simply following without thinking.

As far as the ex-muslim thing is concerned, Im sure that I ,a non-believer, know more about islam then you do. Again, Memorizing and reciting are meaningless if you don't understand what you are saying. 

I hope you can argue with facts and reason, ill be doing the rest later, i dont have time for it now.


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## Sneakz (Apr 21, 2007)

"As far as the ex-muslim thing is concerned, Im sure that I ,a non-believer, know more about islam then you do." 

That, right there bothers me a lot, you don't even know anything about me. not even my name BUT you believe that your better then me. Your being so ignorant its off the charts. Seriously I just joined this topic to say my point of view, not to be insulted by someone who believes hes greater then me.

"I don't know how this proves the quran had big bang theory but obviously this guy speaks arabic better than me.... except that he doesnt." 

Same thing for that which is even worse then assuming your better then me. Saying someone who's life revolves around Quran and religion and has probably been studying the Quran for 40 years or so knows less Arabic then you is just disgusting but maybe that "except that he doesn't" part was just a typo?


Being an X-Muslim I thought you would know why we memorize the Quran with out learning It's meaning. One is to first worry about earning the Arabic tongue, so that you don't F' up the pronunciation and 2 You haven't forgotten how to pray have you? You remember having to recite 2 surats one being Fatiha and the other being of your choice for the first 2 rakkah's? So obviously you would first memorize a couple surats so you can start praying. While i was at Dugsi we were slowly taught Arabic so that we could understand the language. any of the Arab born students need this but there were others (such as myself) Who never had Arabic as there mother tongue.

Also the Hijab thing

Surah an-Nur ayah 31 states:

And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful

The word Hijab may not be mentioned but khim?r is. (They both mean the samething)

Nice twist on words there, nice try but try harder

Also The Hadith being not 100% true, well your not wrong but your not right either. Being an X-Muslim you must have taken some History Seerah and Hadith classes before right? So then you would know what tests a Hadith must undertake to proven Hassan or better (Good). 

I dont want to say it wrong, but Ill try my best. Dont take my words for being 100% accurate. The sources of where the writer got the hadith from is tracked, and the history of that person is checked if he is known to be a liar. For eg) The Prophet said who was heard by blank who told blank who told blank who told blank who told the writer. All of the people ( the blanks) History would be checked and If they were a liar or a theif or if a link in the chain is missing then it would not be considered as an authentic Hadith.

Also an Extract from our faithful freinds at Wiki 

Some modern Islamic scholars believe that the Qur'an parallels the Big Bang in its account of creation, described as follows: "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit of creation, before We clove them asunder?" (Ch:21,Ver:30). The claim has also been made that the Qur'an describes an expanding universe: "The heaven, We have built it with power. And verily, We are expanding it." (Ch:51,Ver:47).[35] Parallels with the Big Crunch and an oscillating universe have also been suggested: "On the day when We will roll up the heavens like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about." (Ch:21,Ver:104).


Seems like something about everything once being one then being released to me ...


Also the moon thing

Sura Al-Furqan 25:61 which says,

Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies,
And placed therein a lamp
And a moon which has reflected light.

I dont really get where you got the word Moonir from ... but none the less Ive brought you proof I haven't edited anything Its all in front of you.

Also to the thing that world never knew this before (or specifically us) of course we knew, don't you know of the Golden age of Islam? Our science and math was once leading the world until we slowly started losing our roots and living our life for greed instead of worship. Also even if we didn't know that proves nothing its already a well known fact that the Quran hasn't been altered for 1400 years so If was written down then thats all that matters. It wasn't possible for them to figure this out back then but yet it was written down.

Dr. Zakir Naik hasn't lied or bent the truth, youve just misunderstood. I'm not gonna start attacking you for the sake of letting this topic run and the fact that I really want to hear what you got to say to this one.


Also I hope you know these facts were just put In there (I'm guessing cause I obviously cant out think God) to prove how authentic the Quran is right? These parts do not really help us in our worship of God but just strengthens or faith.

Also just in case you do go there, being an X-Muslim yourself, you do remember your teacher telling you that our prophet was a Illiterate right? So there's no way he could of wrote this himself.

-- 

Section for the Mod dude

"So the earth is the testing area...
.. who's the moderator? Not me I hope, I've already got my hands full.

Seriously, I have a hard time with the whole "I will be invisible to you so that you can choose to be faithful" thing. In my opinion, if God was worth his salt, he'd pop in every once in a while and say, "Hey guys, I exist!" and give everybody a legitimate choice. And by "once in a while" I don't mean every 2000 years. Really how hard would it be. Feeling his presence just isn't enough, do something, anything that can't easily be brushed away as a feeling. Sometimes I think somebody's behind me, and I turn around and there's somebody there, sometimes there isn't, feelings are deceptive that way, you either know or you don't, and knowing means experiencing with our senses. So God just needs to do something tangible and concrete. I don't need a fuzzy transparent God. If he's truly "all that" he'd be able to end the confusion pretty quick, and without a ton of people going to hell because they didn't trust their "feelings" as fact. I mean hey, Jesus let Thomas feel his wound, and didn't condemn him to hell for doubting. That's all I'm talkin' about. Even Jesus the historical figure is elusive. From what I've read anyway, the only historical records of him come from the Christians, and nobody else of note has any records of his existence at all. Fuzzy... and it's hard to take a devoutly religious person's word for anything, because they have a vested interest in their "truth". So until something of substance happens, I'll just go about my way and not think about it too much."

lol, If I argue with the mod will i get on his bad side? lol but here we go

umm BTW did you read all the other posts? cause I remember this being answered somewhere else but w/e.

The whole thing about earth as a testing ground is true so why would God want it to be so easy by just you know yelling out to the world "Hey I'm God WORSHIP MEEEE" sort of defeats the purpose of a test doesn't it? 

I really don't want to go any farther cause I obviously ain't a Scholar when it comes to this, I really suggest you get pop a visit to your local mosque and ask them a few questions test their minds a bit see if you can out question them, It would be good both ways seeing everyone would walk away with new or reinforced knowledge but I'm pretty sure the members of GBAtemp aren't that great when it comes to religion and posting on message boards about religion wouldn't really be that helpful to you it probably create more topics like this...

Hope that helped


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## Azimuth (Apr 21, 2007)

Seems you are pissed, I can't help the fact that you are offended. But does Naik know Arabic? Really does he? its just a fact that he doesn't. His accent is terrible and seems to be just reciting from memory. I love it when religious peoples faith is questioned and they get all pissed.

1. I don't know if you have ever lived in the middle east,maybe you should to experience the "ideals" of hijab, but hijab plays no role in a womans life and is one of the most argued points in islamic life. I will be looking at the ayah soon. You should also think of this logically, why is it that women must cover and men should not, the great sexist paradox? I was taught that Islam liberated women, that may have been true 1400 years ago but today Islam violates many laws regarding women's freedom.

2. Your argument for just memorizing to learn arabic makes no sense. So just because you can't pronounce a word means you don't have to know what it means, hmm that makes sense. I haven't forgotten to pray, probably never will since it is taught at an early age and like all other things taught when your young it sticks.

3. Hadith is a very inaccurate system, no matter how you 'judge' the accuracy of a hadith in the end it depends on the person who claimed it. For example, a drunk fool on the streets might have heard a truthful hadith but his words will never be counted as truth. Some hadith are clearly wrong, but who is to say that some are more accurate then others. There is no absolute way of determining if a hadith is real and so we must approach and believe these with caution. 

4. Golden age of Islam was not a result of the Quran, thats like saying the entire renaissance was due to the bible.

As I mentioned above, you have provided me with all the evidence I need for not believing, you employ the common muslim arguments that I have grown tired of. First you resort to character attacks, then when provided with evidence of false truths you continue to assert that I am the wrong one and that its me who has misunderstood, a common religious tactic, deny it all you want it will not change the truth.

Who has done more here me who has taken the time to personally assess the surahs and provide my feed back on them, or you who simply copy pastes from wikipedia(definitely the most accurate place!).

Once again, the quran has thousands of different interpretations, just because you say your way is the correct one doesn't make it so. Im not here to argue the history of the quran, I am here to argue the words contained within.

Moonir is the last word of the ayah, maybe if you would look at the quran yourself you would have seen that?

I have a huge problem with this mentallity that the quran is the absolute truth, because it dulls peoples urge to question, why must I not question the laws I am forced to live by. You must ask yourself as a true muslim if you would rather be preached to(taking all you hear as absolute truth) or to learn the truth by yourself, this is part of why I became an atheist, not to mention the lack of freedom(to ask questions or make insights) and scare tactics employed by muslims.

Keep em coming  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , I love angry religious people!


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## skullstatue (Apr 21, 2007)

Azimuth, I want to ask you some questions. If you don't want to answer them, that's fine. Alright so, what purpose do you believe God intended for you? Now, I know you don't believe in him, but you have been able to refer to the Bible as unicorns and story tales, can you even imagine the purpose? Again, (side-stepped) have you ever read the Bible? What drives you to get up in the morning? How is your soul? My best friend is into Scientology, like you, he believes he has every answer but no one really does. Looking forward to the next sidestep. Goodnight.


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## mthrnite (Apr 21, 2007)

Hiya Sneakz, mod dude here 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



First off, don't worry about getting on my bad side, I don't really have much of one.

Even though I'm an atheist, I've been through religious training in that I grew up going to a Christian school, and even wanted to be a preacher myself for quite a while. As I mentioned before, my parents were of the same general faith, both Baptist Christians, but had a very different take on how things worked, free will on one side, predestination on the other. I spent a lot of time trying to sort out which was true, and thus read the Bible quite a bit coming up. When I realized there were irreconcilable differences between their views, it showed me that in the end, holy books, while they may be written in stone, lend themselves readily to interpretation. I've looked at other religions besides Christianity, in my quest to find a meaning for "it all" and saw much the same thing as I saw in Christianity, certainty on one level and confusion in the big picture. People who profess basically the same things, fighting and/or killing each other due to the details of their faith.

The way I finally resolved my issues, at least temporarily, was with the realization that the universe is simply here... this is it. This is it. We try to describe it, and break it apart into a zillion pieces, and the universe is still those pieces, and each and every piece is the universe. "This" is "It". Since every piece is a part of the whole, and is the whole, we are able to see the whole in every piece. As above, so below. This fractal nature of the universe allows us to make predictions and prophesies. The sun sets, it rises, the tide ebbs, and it flows. The big bang, and the big crunch, it is but a flower, opening at the start of the day, closing at the end, babies being born, and old people dying. The wave. This is it. Wise men and women see the wave, see the macrocosm, and break it apart, describing it with words, but the word is not the thing, the thing is the thing, so they are doomed to a partial description, and thus open their works to interpretation to fill in the gaps. To describe is to degrade. All descriptions of the "truth", even mine, are folly, but we are human, and that's what we do. If I may quote the fictional Bokonon yet again:

Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand."

Please feel free, my brother, to try to understand, and try to enlighten others if you wish, but do it nicely, and respectfully, and try to envision a monkey trap in the process:

Drill a hole in a coconut, just big enough for a monkey to slip his hand in. Hollow it out and put a piece of candy inside. Chain the whole business to a tree. Wait for a monkey to slip his hand in and try and get the candy. When he makes a fist around the candy, the hole will be too small for his fist to go through. As long as he tries to get the candy, he is stuck. Grab the greedy monkey, and have yourself a nice meal of roast monkey.

What I'm trying to say is... the only way to be free is to let go.

I hope a portion of this makes some sort of sense, but again, I am doomed to fail, just like everyone else, and that's a good thing.


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## Sneakz (Apr 21, 2007)

Woah, Nice Post mod dude, you expressed your point with eaze and no anger thats cool.

I understand what you mean by we are thinking to much and It's just human nature that we want to know more even though there isn't. But i must digress I don't believe that were thinking to much, I can't come to believe that everything is accident that were all here by chance. Its just seems so out of wack. 

Also I cant come to believe that were also here with no purpose, just living and then just ending. Can you imagine when you die, that you wont be thinking, you wont remember your past, you wont remember you wont even remember how or when you died! I find that impossible, that cant be the way we end. Everything would be so pointless.

I know I haven't given you much to argue here but yah, that how I feel.

Life would be so pointless and can you really believe everything came about by luck?

Also, check out Islam on your free time, google it, surf the web, w/e as long as you just check it out. All your questions I promise you have been asked before and Islam does not side step questions. If you google the right terms or go on the right sight, I'm sure you can find answers. Also check some of the many Dr.Zakir Videos, he usually focuses on answering common misunderstandings of Islam and reasons to convert.


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## Sneakz (Apr 21, 2007)

Alright Well just do this with let amount of anger then ok? Sorry if it seems I'm pissed, I should be able to respect your opinion with out anger.

0. ... again just because (Im guessing) Your born in an Arab country doesn't mean you have more knowledge then someone who has been studying Islam for most of his life. You've only been studying since the day your parents taught you to your current age, that is like my little brother saying he knows more math then I do, He's obviously wrong and so are you. 

But then again you can say this is language and not math right? Well I wasn't born in Canada and English wasn't my first language, yet I know more language then younger brother, who was born in Canada. According to your logic he's suppose to out class me when it comes to understanding English, but he doesn't why? Simply cause I've studied longer then he has, same goes with Dr.Zakir He's studied more then you have when it comes to Islam and Arabic. So saying just because he has an accent he knows less the you is just being ignorant.

1. What does that prove? Nothing, If its in the Quran that it must be followed, You agree that it worked in the past so I wont argue that, but In the future the womens right movements did not happen in the Muslim nations, only in the western nations. When Muslims move to the western countries they are infected my the man made ideals and our told that they are being oppressed by Muslims, It doesn't effect them much but It effects there kids greatly growing up with these Ideals. None the less, none of that matters. Its one of gods orders and it must be followed. I'm not questioning why women instead of men, but I know If a man wearing a hajib saw a scantly dressed woman, his urges would not disappear as it does the other way around -.-

2. Well your right, I don't like that either I rather learn the meaning with or after every Surat, but thats how I was taught so I cant change things now...Or they could just focus on teaching Arabic at a young age so they can learn the meanings with out any need of a English translation.

3. Well I did say it wasn't 100% but do you have a better way of eliminating the good from the bad? Do you really plan on trusting a alcoholic with the words of our Prophet?

4. I cant go back and time and say it was the Quran but you know that there is a high chance of it being the cause.

5. umm i cant argue opinion but, I can say only one of the ayahs were from wiki ... and I looked at multiple Interpretations, there all the same except slight differences such as moon with reflecting light, or moon that is shining.

6. This also opinion but I can argue, there is nothing wrong with arguing or questioning the Quran, It increases faith when the right answers are given. 

Don't you remember what Dr.Zakir said? (Not a direct quote) He congratulated atheists for thinking instead of blindly following. He encourages argument because only good questions can get the right answers. Your right about the Quran sometimes dulls the mind of questions, of course it does why would you want to question the word of god? The only thing you can question is the interpretation, but theres not many ways to interpt the same Arabic word.

BTW, can you clarify something? Your not questioning the authenticity of the Arabic words, just how people interpret them right? You just see it as a bunch of meaningless poetry instead of scientific facts right?

Hope you've learned something from this topic, cause I've certainly have.


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## Bowser128 (Apr 21, 2007)

QUOTE(Sneakz @ Apr 21 2007 said:


> Also I cant come to believe that were also here with no purpose, just living and then just ending. Can you imagine when you die, that you wont be thinking, you wont remember your past, you wont remember you wont even remember how or when you died! I find that impossible, that cant be the way we end. Everything would be so pointless.



Can I just ask what you think happens when a plant dies? Most people's answer is likely to be "Nothing, it just decomposes". So what happens when a goldfish dies, is it the same as the plant? Most people's response to that is "Yes". So then there's one more question, what makes our death so different?

I for one, would _love_ if there was some sort of afterlife where we could all be happy for eternity, but just because it would be nice, doesn't mean it's a reality.


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## Sneakz (Apr 21, 2007)

Good point Bowser but we are not plants nor are we animals, were better we can think we can adapt we can invent. We have a mind that doesn't stop thinking. Just one of the many gifts god has given us. I believe that maybe the point in life for that plant is to aid Humans. Same with the fish to help us survive by eating it. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that were different and that we shouldn't be compared to plants or animals. Our fates are different and so are our purposes in life and after life.

I know I haven't answered the question vary well, but like I said I'm not a scholar, Im just a dude behind his computer screen. If you want more info please ask someone with greater knowledge, I can only answer to the best of my knowledge.


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## cruddybuddy (Apr 21, 2007)

Wow, I'm impressed with the work many of you put into your essays. I didn't actually read most of them because mthrnite said it best with his analogy to a brick wall. What's amazing to me is, most of you probably spent all of 35 minutes on your research paper that was due last Friday, yet you wrote a response to this thread long enough to make the Bible look like a Nintendo game booklet.


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## Azimuth (Apr 21, 2007)

Thanks for the civil reply.

Womens' rights are a huge issue for me, I have lived in muslim countries all my life. I moved to Canada a year ago from the middle east, so the man-made ideals you speak of are nothing but nonsense, people want to be treated fairly if that means going against god, all the power to them. Why should I have to accept the fact that Islam treats women like crap, women can't marry 4 men, but the opposite is allowed. Women can't go to mosques, women must cover themselves....etc.

I guess violating human rights and being sexist is allowed since god said it is, there must be a greater picture here right? To all those that say hijab is justified, try wearing it for a day and see how you like covering yourself. We should be celebrating our womens beauty not hiding it behind cloth.

I obviously see the quran as just another religious book, It is not scientific fact because they are all just claims, and some of the claims are impossible(miracles and the rest) according to scientific law.

Ohh and you called me arrogant, I remember you generalizing atheists as having no morals, and referring to me as believing in nothing, to that I say: 



QUOTE(Sneakz @ Apr 21 2007 said:


> That, right there bothers me a lot, you don't even know anything about me. not even my name BUT you believe that your better then me. Your being so ignorant its off the charts. Seriously I just joined this topic to say my point of view, not to be insulted by someone who believes hes greater then me.



can you say hypocrite 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




cheers

Edit: made it a nested quote


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## spokenrope (Apr 21, 2007)

QUOTE(Sneakz @ Apr 21 2007 said:


> Good point Bowser but we are not plants nor are we animals, were better we can think we can adapt we can invent. We have a mind that doesn't stop thinking. Just one of the many gifts god has given us. I believe that maybe the point in life for that plant is to aid Humans. Same with the fish to help us survive by eating it.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is that were different and that we shouldn't be compared to plants or animals.



We're not plants, but we are animals.

What's more, non human animals can think and invent and adapt just like we can.  Maybe not on the scale that we do, though. Animals can't make atomic bombs, can't level a forest to make condos, can't drive a Hummer 30 miles to work each day...

Hmm...


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## Sneakz (Apr 21, 2007)

Thank you

Seems like everything has been boiled down to women's rights, well ok I see where you might get the idea of hiding beauty is annoying and unfair to you.
But think of it this way. The reasoning behind covering one self up from the sight of men is so that a man does not like you just because of your beauty, as you know beauty plays a big part in love when it really shouldn't. I cant say that I don't care about beauty cause then I would be a hypocrite (caught me off guard once already 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) 

Then again you said this many-a-times already, why cant they just control then men. Well its actually quite harder really, men are also taught to lower the gaze towards women so yes some precautions are taken, but not everyone is Islamic right? So how do we protect Islamic women from non-Islamic men? The answer then goes back to covering the women. 

makes sense no?

Also to the thing about Muslim men allowed to marry multiple women and Women not allowed to go to mosques, the latter is false and the former I have no clue ... 

Women are allowed to go but It's not recommended, simply because what if there taking care of young child? They cant leave that at home nor take them to the Mosque because they child would disrupt others prayer. As you know men are forced to go at least once every 3 weeks to Jumu'ah prayer. Women are not but there still allowed to go. 

Also the Multiple wives things, I have never really understood but a woman doesn't really have to stick with the husband anyway right?

Also you must have misunderstood me when I said Atheist have no morals, I said with out religion their are no bases to morals, nothing stopping us from using women as tools (Still done in strip clubs...) and blacks as slaves. However that topic has long died and for what reasons, I dont know...


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## Azimuth (Apr 21, 2007)

The mosque argument is somewhat flawed, women and men are not allowed to pray in the same area, and as you stated it is not "recommended" that they come to pray. If you really do believe in womens' rights then allow them to bare the same rights you do, that includes marriage, dress and other general rules. 

Since divorce is haram, once a woman is married to a man it is over for her, but a man if unhappy may just remarry(double standard?, YES!)

Hijab should be a choice and not a law as many muslim countries make it out to be.

The only thing stopping me from getting a couple of slaves and totally raping women is...umm..ohh thats right my common decency as a human being, not to mention my rational thoughts and common sense.

A moral atheist is more precious than a moral religious person. The religious persons morals are purely drawn from a fear of retribution, while the atheist has no fear of reprisal and so his belief is purely drawn from genuine feelings of ethics and morals.

Just a small question, no harm intended, but do you think shariah law should be applied as national law, or are you all for secular nations?


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## Sneakz (Apr 22, 2007)

Of course Women and Men cant pray together (They can in same room but Woman must stand behind the men) Seriously the Men and Women might get distracted instead of praying to god. Also about the standing behind, if it were the other way around ... guess where the men in front would be staring at? The back sides of the women in front.

Divorce isn't haram. Women can divorce if they feel like, but yeah its a bit harder since they have to either get permission from the husband or they can appeal to a judge and prove that the man is an ass.

Your right about your conscience would stop you, but not everyone is like that, some might think its right but If they were Islamic they'd know that they'd be committing a great sin and might go to hell for it.

Well yeah but fear is alot more powerful and not everyone starts off with good morals...

Well I'd obviously have see what would happen if the shariah law is applied to a nation that is not 100% Islamic. But I believe it would yield great results in crime. So yeah I'd like to see it applied, but most of the laws would only work if everyone is a Muslim...


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## Veho (Apr 23, 2007)




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