# Puberty-Blockers, Vision Loss & Closed Gender Identity Clinic for Children (Brandon Showalter; Mark Reynolds; ZeroHedge) [Three Articles]



## Creamu (Jul 29, 2022)

'NHS to launch network of local clinics amid a doubling in demand

The United Kingdom National Health Service is closing the gender identity clinic at the Tavistock and Portman Trust, the London-based facility whose practices have faced considerable scrutiny in recent years.

[...]

Cass stated in a July 19 report that there was a need to move away from the sole provider model and develop services regionally to meet the needs of patients. The report was also critical of using experimental puberty-blocking drugs to treat gender dysphoria.

"The rationale for use of puberty blockers at Tanner Stage 2 of development was based on data that demonstrated that children, particularly birth-registered boys who had early gender incongruence, were unlikely to desist once they reached early puberty; this rationale does not necessarily apply to later-presenting young people, including the predominant referral group of birth-registered girls," Cass wrote.

[...]

"We do not fully understand the role of adolescent sex hormones in driving the development of both sexuality and gender identity through the early teen years, so by extension we cannot be sure about the impact of stopping these hormone surges on psychosexual and gender maturation. We therefore have no way of knowing whether, rather than buying time to make a decision, puberty blockers may disrupt that decision-making process."

[...]

The Cass review also detailed that the evidence base for using drugs to arrest natural puberty in gender dysphoric children is poor and highlighted their impact on brain development, noting that "brain maturation may be temporarily or permanently disrupted by puberty blockers, which could have significant impact on the ability to make complex risk-laden decisions, as well as possible longer-term neuropsychological consequences."

In February 2021, research published in PLOS One revealed that the use of blockers notably stunted bone growth in children who were given puberty blockers. The study followed a cohort of 44 youth who had undergone the experimental treatment in the U.K.'s NHS gender clinic.

"In both cases (height and bone strength) there was some growth but less than would be expected during those years without hormonal suppression," the research found, according to NHS. The research was published nine years after the study began. Of the 44 children that the study tracked, 43 went on to take cross-sex hormones.

The Tavistock clinic was also the subject of considerable scrutiny in 2020 when Keira Bell, a young woman in her 20s, alleged in a judicial review that she was incapable of understanding the risks of puberty blockers when she was treated at the clinic as a teenager with mental health issues. Bell went on to take opposite sex hormones and underwent a cosmetic double mastectomy only to later regret those decisions and detransition.

[...]'

-Brandon Showalter






https://www.christianpost.com/news/...istock-gender-clinic-after-formal-review.html

'[...]

Keira Bell, who was prescribed puberty blockers at the centre when she was just 16 years old but later stopped the transition process, welcomed the decision.

Now 25, she said: “I’m over the moon. It means many children will be saved from going down that path that I went down.

“It’s a long time coming.”

She added: “I thought that that was the way I needed to go (transition) but really I just needed some support... mental health support and some therapy really.”

She said medics at the Tavistock moved to prescribe puberty blockers for troubled youngsters far too quickly and instead should have given mental health support first.

“We are talking about children here, medicalising children based on the fact that you know they feel a certain way,” she said.

She added that children in that position should have been offered mental health support, rather than puberty blockers, in order to get them back to “reality”.

“They are messing with children’s lives,” she added. “People at the Tavistock should be ashamed.”

[...]'

-Mark Reynolds

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1647475/tavistock-centre-child-gender-identity-transgender-nhs

'The U.S. Food and Drug Administration recently added a warning to the labeling of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists—also referred to by many as puberty blockers—saying the drugs may cause a series of symptoms in children that include headaches, pressure buildup around the brain, and vision loss.'

-ZeroHedge

https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/f...ss-children?ref=biztoc.com&curator=biztoc.com


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## aoikurayami (Jul 29, 2022)

May I inquire how long these copy pasta threads will keep going ?

I'd suspect you summarizing em in your own words would be...

far more interesting

Future-Mod-dono


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## Creamu (Jul 29, 2022)

aoikurayami said:


> May I inquire how long these copy pasta threads will keep going ?


They are selected quotes and in alot of cases collages of multiple articles carefully selected and put together and therefore transformative.


aoikurayami said:


> I'd suspect you summarizing em in your own words would be...


I would prefer this approach, but the amount of pilpul that comes with that is not worth it unfortunatly.


aoikurayami said:


> far more interesting


Depends. Reading direct quotes from people on the ground adds a nice dimension, as well as getting different viewpoints from a variety of journalists.


aoikurayami said:


> Future-Mod-dono


Yes, it is my dream to become mod. Fortunatly I had the highest votecount (amoung others; excluding GodReborn who declined the suggestion) in the latest poll, as well a staff endoursment for the politics section.

If you think you have a better approach for creating politics and news content, I'd glady read it. Thanks for the suggestion.

'Tavistock, the only gender and sex change clinic in Britain, went from treating around 130 child patients per year in 2010 to treating nearly 2400 in 2021. In fact, the clinic was facing overwhelming demand for services by the time it was finally shut down, and numerous proponents of sex change treatment for children argued that MORE clinics like Tavistock would soon be needed.  

[...]


The controversy around Tavistock deepened in 2020, when the center was taken to court by Keira Bell, a former patient, who argued she had been too young to consent to the medical treatment overseen by the GIDS that began her female-to-male transition as a teenager. Bell won her initial case but it was overturned on appeal, with the court of appeal reaffirming the principle of Gillick competence that “it was for doctors and not judges to decide on the capacity of a person under 16 to consent to medical treatment.”  

[...]  

Tavistock's shut down reaffirms the growing concerns among the public about the deceptive nature of gender ideology and the fact that children with no legitimate understanding of sexuality have been mutilated chemically and physically in the name of political cultism rather than personal health.  It has been recently revealed that the clinic is also facing a massive lawsuit of at least 1000 families of former patients and the list is expanding daily. 

Much like abortion doctors, gender affirmation doctors seem much more preoccupied with political activism than fulfilling the principles and demands of their own profession.  Beyond the temptation for such doctors to exploit unwitting and underage patients in order to make large sums of money through government grants and insurance payoffs, there is also the temptation to artificially inflate the demand for sex change services as a way to fabricate “proof” that gender politics are as pervasive as they assert.  

[...]'

https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/t...-clinic-kids-shut-down-and-sued-1000-families


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## KitChan (Aug 16, 2022)

Most detrans stories I hear about tend to be women.

Can't help but wonder if these are girls who got bulied for being a tomboy, took some feminist setiment about being a woman sucks too seriously, were influenced by media trating trans like it's a trendy thing (remember the mid 00s when everyone was hyping up aspergers and diagnosing every person they see with it?) or something.


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## Creamu (Aug 17, 2022)

KitChan said:


> Most detrans stories I hear about tend to be women.
> 
> Can't help but wonder if these are girls who got bulied for being a tomboy, took some feminist setiment about being a woman sucks too seriously, were influenced by media trating trans like it's a trendy thing (remember the mid 00s when everyone was hyping up aspergers and diagnosing every person they see with it?) or something.


Interesting. Last time I checked on this it was mostly autistic boys transitioning. I guess as the application of puberty blockers gets more normalized it becomes more desirable to girls as a social signal and as it wears off and the reality kicks in they detrans?


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 17, 2022)

Just saying, the science on puberty blockers and HRT being safe and effective has been solved, it's objectively a positive and the only evidence contrary to it says at best it may not be effective in every situation, but for the majority, it remains as such.


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## Creamu (Aug 17, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Just saying, the science on puberty blockers and HRT being safe and effective has been solved, it's objectively a positive and the only evidence contrary to it says at best it may not be effective in every situation, but for the majority, it remains as such.



Correct me if I am wrong, but if you give children puberty blockers, you are putting them out of the genepool or at least disadvantaging them on the evolutionary field. This was once quite an unpopular position. You are essentially selecting out people who are easily suggestable at an early age and select for people who are uneffected by such suggestions. I mean it's not the worst thing to select for but its quite brutal.


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## Lacius (Aug 17, 2022)

Creamu said:


> you are putting them out of the genepool or at least disadvantaging them on the evolutionary field.


Generally speaking, puberty blockers don't affect fertility, and even if they did, most people who would use them would still use them, and there'd still be a compelling case to use them.



Creamu said:


> You are essentially selecting out people who are easily suggestable


Suggesting trans youth who use puberty blockers are just "easily suggestable" is transphobic horseshit, and you should be ashamed of yourself.


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## City (Aug 17, 2022)

Trans rights are human rights.


This being said, please keep kids out of this stuff. They can make a choice when they're adults.


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## Creamu (Aug 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Generally speaking, puberty blockers don't affect fertility,


So a child given puberty blockers can reproduce later in life if the treatment is continued?


Lacius said:


> and even if they did, most people who would use them would still use them, and there'd still be a compelling case to use them.


I wouldn't feel comfortable making that call for a child.


Lacius said:


> Suggesting trans youth who use puberty blockers are just "easily suggestable" is transphobic horseshit, and you should be ashamed of yourself.


Please apply yourself. Amoung those children you will certainly have this type.


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## KitChan (Aug 17, 2022)

I think it's important that the people who need them have access to them,
But I think it's also important that they're administered with scrutiny and doctors look into what the signs are that it might be the wrong treatment for someone.


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## Lacius (Aug 17, 2022)

Creamu said:


> So a child given puberty blockers can reproduce later in life if the treatment is continued?


If a child on puberty blockers discontinues them, they'll likely be as fertile as though they had never taken them.

If we're talking about continuing puberty blockers into adulthood and/or other treatments, then we are talking about adults making informed medical decisions regarding what's right for them, and it's irrelevant to the topic.



Creamu said:


> I wouldn't feel comfortable making that call for a child.


The effects of puberty blockers are reversible, so it's wholly irrelevant to the topic and you don't need to hurt your brain over it.

However, hypothetically, a sterile trans adult is better than a dead trans kid.



Creamu said:


> Please apply yourself. Amoung those children you will certainly have this type.


What?


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## Creamu (Aug 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> If a child on puberty blockers discontinues them, they'll likely be as fertile as though they had never taken them.


Okay, this is an evolutionary disadvantage.


Lacius said:


> The effects of puberty blockers are reversible, so it's wholly irrelevant to the topic and you don't need to hurt your brain over it.


You said they are likely to be fertile as though they have never taken them.


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## Lacius (Aug 17, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Okay, this is an evolutionary disadvantage.
> 
> You said they are likely to be fertile as though they have never taken them.


The effects of puberty blockers are reversible, so I don't know what you're going on about.


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## Creamu (Aug 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The effects of puberty blockers are reversible, so I don't know what you're going on about.


My point is that you are putting evolutionary pressure on developing humans and that this essentially is an eugenic project.


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## City (Aug 18, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The effects of puberty blockers are reversible, so I don't know what you're going on about.


Isn't your dick going to be extremely small?


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## Lacius (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> My point is that you are putting evolutionary pressure on developing humans and that this essentially is an eugenic project.


1. It's reversible by merely discontinuing puberty blockers if you no longer wish to take them, so no.
2. We are talking about people doing something completely voluntary. I don't want anybody to take puberty blockers who doesn't want to.

Adults making informed medical decisions is not eugenics. You should learn what eugenics is.



City said:


> Isn't your dick going to be extremely small?


If puberty blockers aren't discontinued, then yeah, but if you were born with a penis and move from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones, you probably don't want your penis to begin with.

Your dick size is likely unaffected if you discontinue puberty blockers.


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## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

Lacius said:


> 1. It's reversible by merely discontinuing puberty blockers if you no longer wish to take them, so no.


Doesn't mean it's not evolutionary pressure medically applied to children.


Lacius said:


> 2. We are talking about people doing something completely voluntary.


We are talking about children.


Lacius said:


> Adults making informed medical decisions is not eugenics. You should learn what eugenics is.


It certainly can be. Eugenics are deliberate steps to genetically select a populus.


Lacius said:


> If puberty blockers aren't discontinued, then yeah, but if you were born with a penis and move from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones, you probably don't want your penis to begin with.


Okay, but can you see how you completly exclude people from the genepool by giving them this opiton.


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## Lacius (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Doesn't mean it's not evolutionary pressure medically applied to children.


Nothing about a trans kid's decision to take puberty blockers itself is likely to decrease fertility.



Creamu said:


> We are talking about children.


We are talking about children making the wholly inconsequential decision to take puberty blockers, the effects of which can be reversed by discontinuing them. Oppositely, a trans kid who doesn't take puberty blockers may have significantly greater difficulties as an adult, and trans suicides are higher among those who can't get access to health care like puberty blockers.

Let's not beat around the bush. A person against trans healthcare is a person who is for trans youth suicide.



Creamu said:


> It certainly can be. Eugenics are deliberate steps to genetically select a populus.


That isn't what puberty blockers do. You could talk about cross hormone therapy doing that, but a.) that's something an adult does, and b.) it's a completely voluntary and informed medical decisions.

Again, no eugenics present. Learn what eugenics is.



Creamu said:


> Okay, but can you see how you completly exclude people from the genepool by giving them this opiton.


See above.


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## Nothereed (Aug 18, 2022)

City said:


> This being said, please keep kids out of this stuff. They can make a choice when they're adults.


except no they can't wait that long.
Puberty does permanent changes to the body, meaning it can worsen the disphoria. Most "kids" figure it out by 12 that they are not what they were assigned at birth.
Puberty blockers delay it as a stop gap. Using that gap of time to decide if things need to be done.

by 16 roughly (with blockers still present) then doctors approve of hormones (with parents consent and after plenty of checks with other medical professionals, such as therapists)

Because you cannot undo widening of the hips, or broadening of shoulders. Those things can't be undone.


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## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Nothing about a trans kid's decision to take puberty blockers itself is likely to decrease fertility.


Any cause that reduces or increases reproductive success in a portion of a population potentially exerts evolutionary pressure, selective pressure or selection pressure, driving natural selection. It is a quantitative description of the amount of change occurring in processes investigated by evolutionary biology, but the formal concept is often extended to other areas of research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_pressure


Lacius said:


> We are talking about children making the wholly inconsequential decision to take puberty blockers,


If it's wholly inconsequential it is a placebo. Although even that has consequences...


Lacius said:


> the effects of which can be reversed by discontinuing them.


No, you only live once and this decision certainly adds evolutionary pressure.


Lacius said:


> Oppositely, a trans kid who doesn't take puberty blockers may have significantly greater difficulties as an adult, and trans suicides are higher among those who can't get access to health care like puberty blockers.


How about the suicide rates of people that aren't trans but regret their decision to have been involved in such medical procedures?


Lacius said:


> Let's not beat around the bush. A person against trans healthcare is a person who is for trans youth suicide.


Yes, they are comic book villians and they want to eat your pizza as well.


Lacius said:


> That isn't what puberty blockers do. You could talk about cross hormone therapy doing that, but a.) that's something an adult does, and b.) it's a completely voluntary and informed medical decisions.


Blocking puberty is not an evolutionary pressure? It certainly is.


Lacius said:


> Again, no eugenics present. Learn what eugenics is.


Okay, what do you think what eugenics is?


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## Nothereed (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Okay, what do you think what eugenics is?


Have a definition:
the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable.Developed largely by Sir Francis Galton as a method of improving the human race, eugenics was increasingly discredited as unscientific and racially biased during the 20th century, especially after the adoption of its doctrines by the Nazis in order to justify their treatment of Jews, disabled people, and other minority groups.


Tl;dr
Selective reproduction on humans is what eugenics is for a "desirable" trait.

That's not what's going on with puberty blockers.



Creamu said:


> If it's wholly inconsequential it is placebo.


*sigh*

No.
it means that removing them means that it has no consequences on the process of growing up after their use is done. If I was someone who wanted or need puberty blockers. And I was developing as a dude. I would still continue to develop as a dude after stopping puberty blockers.
if however I then took hormones (or started the process of it) before stopping, then it would have consequences, aka, no longer developing as a dude. (or perhaps choosing to use hormones to reinforce it)


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## Lacius (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Any cause that reduces or increases reproductive success in a portion of a population potentially exerts evolutionary pressure, selective pressure or selection pressure, driving natural selection. It is a quantitative description of the amount of change occurring in processes investigated by evolutionary biology, but the formal concept is often extended to other areas of research.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_pressure


Puberty blockers don't do this.



Creamu said:


> Blocking puberty is not an evolutionary pressure? It certainly is.


The decision to discontinue puberty indefinitely by switching from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones is an adult decision, and it's an informed and voluntary decision.

Regarding suicide rates, I'm unaware of any suicides from anybody who just took puberty blockers and regretted them later. If you don't want to remain on them, you just stop and continue puberty where you left off.


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## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

Okay thank you for the conversation. It was interesting to get your prespective on this topic, but at this point we will be moving in circles, since we fundamentally disagree.


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## Lacius (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Okay thank you for the conversation. It was interesting to get your prespective on this topic, but at this point we will be moving in circles, since we fundamentally disagree.


You don't seem to understand that suspending puberty in childhood/adolescence is without consequence and merely makes it easier for trans youth in the future if they decide to transition as adults. Fertility rates aren't affected if one discontinues puberty blockers. If an adult makes the informed choice to transition and doesn't care about fertility, that's their choice. If a trans kid can't get health care like puberty blockers, or an adult trans person has a harder time transitioning because they didn't get puberty blockers in their youth, they are significantly more likely to kill themselves. Because of the reversibility of puberty blockers, there's no record of anyone killing themselves I'm aware of from just having used puberty blockers.

You're ending the conversation because you're backed into a wall. You're transphobic, you don't care about trans kids killing themselves, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your anti-science, anti-fact, and anti-trans posts are literally disgusting, and it's you and people like you that are the reason I post  here infrequently. Piss off.


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## Scarlet (Aug 18, 2022)

take a shot every time you read “evolutionary pressure” in this thread, the fun new transphobic drinking game!!!

these threads are always cesspools, it has been fun to read one that’s still fresh. I genuinely don’t understand posts like this. Nobody is here to discuss. Transphobes are still going to be transphobic by the end of it. Human rights advocates are still going to support human lives. Yet we still get the same threads. 

Politics section gonna politics. 1am is my ranty time, so apologies for that lol


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## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

Lacius said:


> You don't seem to understand that suspending puberty in childhood/adolescence is without consequence and merely makes it easier for trans youth in the future if they decide to transition as adults.


There just is a disconnect between us, because I look at it from an evolutionary perspective. How can it be without consequence if it makes it easier for trans youth in the future if they decide to transition as adults. That initself is a consequence. This tells me that we come from completely different schools of thought, which is perfectly fine.


Lacius said:


> Fertility rates aren't affected if one discontinues puberty blockers.


Okay, I take your word for it. But even then it is a evolutionary pressure up to this point.


Lacius said:


> If an adult makes the informed choice to transition and doesn't care about fertility, that's their choice.


Giving them this option is taking them out of the genepool. That's fine by me, but by going down this road you will eventually end up with a populus without this type of person,if you believe in evolution.


Lacius said:


> If a trans kid can't get health care like puberty blockers, or an adult trans person has a harder time transitioning because they didn't get puberty blockers in their youth, they are significantly more likely to kill themselves. Because of the reversibility of puberty blockers, there's no record of anyone killing themselves I'm aware of from just having used puberty blockers.


Okay, I see your point. Since this is going on anyway we will see what will come from it. The blowback you will get if you are miscalcutalting here (not you personally) is going to be extremely costly for your cause.


Lacius said:


> You're ending the conversation because you're backed into a wall.


We can go on. I hope you can appreachiate that there is such a thing as diametrically opposed positions. If you think there is some interesting discussion left to be had I am open for it. Don't be disappointed if we are going in circles though.


Lacius said:


> You're transphobic,


This made me laugh. I have no fear of trans people, trust me.


Lacius said:


> you don't care about trans kids killing themselves,


Yes because I want to eat them.


Lacius said:


> and you should be ashamed of yourself.


Im not.


Lacius said:


> You're anti-science, anti-fact, and anti-trans posts are disgusting, and it's you and people like you that are the reason I post things here infrequently.


I'm sorry to hear that, maybe reconsider your position.


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Lacius said:


> You're ending the conversation because you're backed into a wall. You're transphobic, you don't care about trans kids killing themselves, and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your anti-science, anti-fact, and anti-trans posts are literally disgusting, and it's you and people like you that are the reason I post here infrequently. Piss off.



Trans kids are killing themselves because they aren't being given puberty blockers?  What do hormones have to do with gender anyway?

To me it seems like the kids are being poisoned with the idea that they are fully in control of their bodies.  It's an ideal that disappoints.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

KitChan said:


> I think it's important that the people who need them have access to them,
> But I think it's also important that they're administered with scrutiny and doctors look into what the signs are that it might be the wrong treatment for someone.


They are and they do. In fact it's extremely hard for people to get HRT nowadays unless you're an adult giving like, informed consent and even then it's still a pain in the cock and balls.



Scarlet said:


> take a shot every time you read “evolutionary pressure” in this thread, the fun new transphobic drinking game!!!
> 
> these threads are always cesspools, it has been fun to read one that’s still fresh. I genuinely don’t understand posts like this. Nobody is here to discuss. Transphobes are still going to be transphobic by the end of it. Human rights advocates are still going to support human lives. Yet we still get the same threads.
> 
> Politics section gonna politics. 1am is my ranty time, so apologies for that lol


This. At the end of the day it's not about actually being swayed from transphobic positions, because the science is and always has been solved for over 30 years now (and probably way more, but that goes beyond my time.), all these threads are by the people who make them are empty virtue signals to fellow transphobes to come in and circlejerk about how upset they are they're (rightfully) called transphobes for their awful positions that objectively cause harm to people, not just LGBTQ+ people but also people who are trying to get puberty blockers for other, trans-unrelated reasons such as hormonal issues and thyroid problems.

To put it less verbosely, no one who is against puberty blockers and the like is wanting to have their minds changed. It is all a worthless virtue signal and nothing more.


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## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

Can someone explain to me how the rethoric developed that people are afraid of trans people?


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## subcon959 (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> no one who is against puberty blockers and the like is wanting to have their minds changed.


I really hope this viewpoint becomes archaic in the future. It's far too narrow-minded and anti-progressive. There is no benefit at all in conflating those that are simply ignorant with those that are staunchly bigoted. The amount of times I see someone sincerely ask a question only to be called transphobic.. what exactly is the purpose of that? Even if the majority of the people are not sincere, isn't it still worth the effort to educate rather than deride in the off-chance they are genuinely unsure or on the fence? It's almost like the only plan of action anyone has come up with is to shame people into changing. It's not gonna work.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> I really hope this viewpoint becomes archaic in the future. It's far too narrow-minded and anti-progressive. There is no benefit at all in conflating those that are simply ignorant with those that are staunchly bigoted. The amount of times I see someone sincerely ask a question only to be called transphobic.. what exactly is the purpose of that? Even if the majority of the people are not sincere, isn't it still worth the effort to educate rather than deride in the off-chance they are genuinely unsure or on the fence? It's almost like the only plan of action anyone has come up with is to shame people into changing. It's not gonna work.


The alternative is actually way worse, which is perpetual cope excuses like "B-BUT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SCIENCE!" and "B-B-BUT IT'S TOO MUCH CHANGE, TOO QUICKLY!"

Which is to say, boohoo. Get over it. Civil rights do not need your permission to be supported.


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> The alternative is actually way worse, which is perpetual cope excuses like "B-BUT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SCIENCE!" and "B-B-BUT IT'S TOO MUCH CHANGE, TOO QUICKLY!"
> 
> Which is to say, boohoo. Get over it. Civil rights do not need your permission to be supported.



Wanting more trans kids for science is just mad science.  Let the kids live without pronouns.  Indoctrinating kids is not a civil liberty.  At least, it shouldn't be as far as I am concerned.



Creamu said:


> Can someone explain to me how the rethoric developed that people are afraid of trans people?



It's an end justifies the means situation.  It's not sincere or honest.  People will tell you that if you aren't sexually attracted to a transgender person or someone of a  different ethnicity, that you are transphobic or racist.  It's the current "religion", using attempts to guilt in order to compel.  There is nothing understanding about it.


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## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

Some people just don't like being lied to. Has nothing to do with any bigotry or phobia.


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## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> It's an end justifies the means situation.  It's not sincere or honest.  People will tell you that if you aren't sexually attracted to a transgender person or someone of a  different ethnicity, that you are transphobic or racist.  It's the current "religion", using attempts to guilt in order to compel.  There is nothing understanding about it.


I'm pretty sure there is something religions if not post christian to the whole thing. It's weird. Why should anyone fear transpeople? I can see disgust or horror, for example show someone you know that is pro transitioning operation (or whatever it is called) a video of it and you will very often get a shock reaction that is combined with reevaluation.


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## Xzi (Aug 18, 2022)

Scarlet said:


> take a shot every time you read “evolutionary pressure” in this thread, the fun new transphobic drinking game!!!
> 
> these threads are always cesspools, it has been fun to read one that’s still fresh. I genuinely don’t understand posts like this. Nobody is here to discuss. Transphobes are still going to be transphobic by the end of it. Human rights advocates are still going to support human lives. Yet we still get the same threads.
> 
> Politics section gonna politics. 1am is my ranty time, so apologies for that lol


Can we like...start warning people for thinly-veiled racist/transphobic/sexist bullshit?  Even better if we start immediately deleting these threads which have zero substance of their own.  Copy-pasting entire articles shouldn't be allowed even if the source provides real news, and Creamu's sources do not.


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Can we like...start warning people for thinly-veiled racist/transphobic/sexist bullshit?  Even better if we start immediately deleting these threads which have zero substance of their own.  Copy-pasting entire articles shouldn't be allowed even if the source provides real news, and Creamu's sources do not.



If you could do what Creamu does, and post your own sources and commentary, instead of claiming Trump is a pedophile rapist because your anger justifies it, I'd might take what you say without a whole heap of salt.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Can we like...start warning people for thinly-veiled racist/transphobic/sexist bullshit?  Even better if we start immediately deleting these threads which have zero substance of their own.  Copy-pasting entire articles shouldn't be allowed even if the source provides real news, and Creamu's sources do not.


Yeah like, it really seems like it's hardcore schizo hours whenever Creamu just mirrors the front page of right wing pseudo science sites to the political section.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> If you could do what Creamu does, and post your own sources and commentary, instead of claiming Trump is a pedophile rapist because your anger justifies it, I'd might take what you say without a whole heap of salt.


What difference does it make if I cite the equivalent of Facebook posts to back my arguments?  Trump being a pedo is mostly a personal opinion thing, though there is a fair amount of photographed evidence to support it, and his best buddy was Jeffrey fucking Epstein.  Where and when I feel the need to post news articles I do, but I'm not going to become a broken record like the conservatives here.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Xzi said:


> What difference does it make if I cite the equivalent of Facebook posts to back my arguments?  Trump being a pedo is mostly a personal opinion thing, though there is a fair amount of photographed evidence to support it, and his best buddy was Jeffrey fucking Epstein.  Where and when I feel the need to post news articles I do, but I'm not going to become a broken record like the conservatives here.



That's cute, pretending you aren't a broken record.  Everyone can see what you'd say a mile a way.  There's nothing really to add.  You can just let the illusion that you exist carry that legacy for you.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Xzi said:


> What difference does it make if I cite the equivalent of Facebook posts to back my arguments?  Trump being a pedo is mostly a personal opinion thing, though there is a fair amount of photographed evidence to support it, and his best buddy was Jeffrey fucking Epstein.  Where and when I feel the need to post news articles I do, but I'm not going to become a broken record like the conservatives here.


I applaud your ability to take Tabzer seriously lmao


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> That's cute, pretending you aren't a broken record.  Everyone can see what you'd say a mile a way.  There's nothing really to add.  You can just let the illusion that you exist carry that legacy for you.


True, unoriginal threads and topics only warrant unoriginal responses.  Which is why I'm asking Scarlet and the other mods to cut down on repetitive spam, but that concept seems somehow offensive to you.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Xzi said:


> True, unoriginal threads and topics only warrant unoriginal responses.  Which is why I'm asking Scarlet and the other mods to cut down on repetitive spam, but that concept seems somehow offensive to you.



I'm not offended.  I just think it's stupid that you think posting narratives backed by hypothetical Facebook threads are the same thing that Creamu is posting.  And then you complain after the fact.  Pick a lane.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 18, 2022)

Xzi said:


> True, unoriginal threads and topics only warrant unoriginal responses.  Which is why I'm asking Scarlet and the other mods to cut down on repetitive spam, but that concept seems somehow offensive to you.


Anything intelligent is offensive to *him


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I'm not offended.  I just think it's stupid that you think your narratives backed by hypothetical Facebook are the same thing that Creamu is posting.


I could spam page one of this forum with articles from actual news sites instead of ZeroHedge, which is indeed equivalent to Facebook or even 8chan.  That would still make me a spammer nonetheless.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Xzi said:


> I could spam page one of this forum with articles from actual news sites instead of ZeroHedge, which is indeed equivalent to Facebook or even 8chan.  That would still make me a spammer nonetheless.



You could be the better person, and spam page two, with something that isn't objectively worse and untraceable.  Instead of pretending that the OP is worse than what it is.  Yet you decide to post something  even worse than that, then you complain.  The idea that you are a tumor is starting to make sense.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You could be the better person, and spam page two, with something that isn't objectively worse and untraceable.  Instead you are pretending that something is worse than what it is, to rationalize you posting something  even worse than that, then you complain.  The idea that you are a tumor is starting to make sense.


Do you have any real objections beyond coping that he thinks the guy who was buddy buddy with Epstein was probably a pedophile


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You could be the better person, and spam page two


What?  I'm talking about the front page of the forum, where the listing of threads is.  Creamu has created eighteen of them, almost all of them within the last week or so.  All of them opinion pieces, and nearly all of them from the same tabloid site.

At this point it's almost enough to start questioning whether or not he's getting paid for posting affiliate links.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Do you have any real objections beyond coping that he thinks the guy who was buddy buddy with Epstein was probably a pedophile


If he said that is what he thought instead of pretending that it was something that everyone should assume to be true (while simultaneously complaining about the sources of others) I would have no problem.  Trump might be a pedophile and a rapist.  I don't know.  You might be a pedophile and a rapist.

Meanwhile, keep living for emo, unironically.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

Dont mind me, just watching this tread for fun..... but man its getting heated. Very heated.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> If he said that is what he thought instead of pretending that it was something that everyone should assume to be true (while simultaneously complaining about the sources of others) I would have no problem.  Trump might be a pedophile and a rapist.  I don't know.  You might be a pedophile and a rapist.
> 
> Meanwhile, keep living for emo, unironically.


So, that's a no then. I think it is fair to assume that anyone who had dealings with one of the most powerful pedophiles in the world and was close friends with him either was one, or at the least was complicit in his activities and is just as bad.

Of course, you aren't brave enough to adopt a position against your puppetmasters LMAO


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> So, that's a no then. I think it is fair to assume that anyone who had dealings with one of the most powerful pedophiles in the world and was close friends with him either was one, or at the least was complicit in his activities and is just as bad.
> 
> Of course, you aren't brave enough to adopt a position against your puppetmasters LMAO


LMAO?  That's cope.  I answered your question.  You didn't like the answer and substituted something else.  I'm okay with the fact that I don't know the nature of Trump.  It's better than pretending.  I think it's fair to assume that if someone who projects, all the time, calls someone a pedophile-rapist--that they are at least just as bad.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

I kindly aks you to get back on topic or open another thread for where ever you want to take the discussion.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Are you angry?


Why would I be?


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Dont mind me, just watching this tread for fun..... but man its getting heated. Very heated.


This is actually tame compared to the actual dumpster fires this section sees.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Why would I be?


The Post are getting heated from you.....


----------



## Creamu (Aug 18, 2022)

You are derailing this thread. If you think you can do better than me just do it. Please stay on topic.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> If you think you can do better than me just do it.


I suppose we'd all be glad this thread didn't derail to EHS influence or smth.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Why would I be?


I don't adopt a progressive emo life-style--I can't pretend to empathize.

You said something that's categorically untrue, which makes me think you are emotionally charged, or at least disturbed enough to instigate such.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I don't adopt a progressive emo life-style--I can't pretend to empathize.


Considering your past posts, I think empathy is a foreign concept to you LMAO


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Considering your past posts, I think empathy is a foreign concept to you LMAO



Are you looking for empathy?  If you are honestly looking, you'll find it.


----------



## duwen (Aug 18, 2022)

Lacius said:


> A person against trans healthcare is a person who is for trans youth suicide.


This line right here perfectly encapsulates why we can't have a logical, rational, discourse with those that believe every trans candidate is equal in terms of their mental health or reasons for wanting to transition.

No one's against any form of trans healthcare, quite the opposite - people are querying if puberty blockers are in the best interest of the patients health... this does not equate to being pro (a theoretical, as it wouldn't be a certainty for everyone denied puberty blocking treatment) suicide. Anyone that would have a serious tendency towards suicide should be receiving the best mental healthcare above any medication that is just a delay at best.


----------



## City (Aug 18, 2022)

Can anyone link me a study that shows that the stuff they give to transition males to female doesn't actually stop your dick from growing? Because I'm like 80% sure I've read somewhere it does, and that's a big issue if the person changes their mind.


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

duwen said:


> This line right here perfectly encapsulates why we can't have a logical, rational, discourse with those that believe every trans candidate is equal in terms of their mental health or reasons for wanting to transition.
> 
> No one's against any form of trans healthcare, quite the opposite - people are querying if puberty blockers are in the best interest of the patients health... this does not equate to being pro (a theoretical, as it wouldn't be a certainty for everyone denied puberty blocking treatment) suicide. Anyone that would have a serious tendency towards suicide should be receiving the best mental healthcare above any medication that is just a delay at best.


Finally, a sane comment for once in those threads



City said:


> that's a big issue if the person changes their mind


And guess what they will most likely do lmfao


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

I have what I believe is a related question. 

Is it really "phobic" if a natural male is not attracted to people born male, who go through "conversion therapy" and get "medical" treatments to "transition"? 

I mean, just sit and think about that for a second. Are people even still allowed to have personal preferences in what they are attracted to? Is it okay, for example, to just not like fat chicks, not because you hate them, but because you are not attracted to that? 

I don't see much of a difference. I do not consider it "transphobic" to be repulsed by the idea of having sex with someone you know is the same gender as you, if you are heterosexual.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2022)

duwen said:


> people are querying if puberty blockers are in the best interest of the patients health...


And it's left up to the individual patients to decide whether to accept the risks or not.  Not the state, and certainly not chronically online would-be authoritarians.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> I have what I believe is a related question.
> 
> Is it really "phobic" if a natural male is not attracted to people born male, who go through "conversion therapy" and get "medical" treatments to "transition"?
> 
> ...


Neither does anyone else. Genital preference has literally been the hallmark of transgender liberation. It's when someone says "Well, you have X genitals, so you're X gender" that it's transphobic, because you are making a declaration against their identity without any real objective grounding.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Neither does anyone else. Genital preference has literally been the hallmark of transgender liberation. It's when someone says "Well, you have X genitals, so you're X gender" that it's transphobic, because you are making a declaration against their identity without any real objective grounding.



How is it okay to prepare a child for a future of transitioning their genitals based on gender identity if such coordination between the two are considered transphobic?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> How is it okay to prepare a child for a future of transitioning their genitals based on gender identity if such coordination between the two are considered transphobic?


It's not? You tried really hard to bend what I said into that lmao

Barring the fact that not all trans people actually need SRS, you should probably be intelligent enough to understand the difference between someone wanting bottom surgery to better affirm their identity (given that studies show it vastly reduces suicide and depression rates) and saying "You have to be this gender, because you were born with this genital!"


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Neither does anyone else. Genital preference has literally been the hallmark of transgender liberation. It's when someone says "Well, you have X genitals, so you're X gender" that it's transphobic, because you are making a declaration against their identity without any real objective grounding.


Identifying as something does not make you that thing, if you are specifically the diametric opposite to that thing. 

Has nothing to do with an irrational fear. You really need to stop using that word unless it actually applies. 

I am a hetero male. I am not attracted to penises. I would not be attracted to someone who chopped off his penis and got fake tits. Is that okay with you? Am I ALLOWED to feel this way without you automatically assuming that I am a bigot or suffering from a phobia? 

Do I HAVE to accept a mutilated penis as a vagina, just because a man identifies as a woman? I am being serious.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> I am a hetero male. I am not attracted to penises. I would not be attracted to someone who chopped off his penis and got fake tits. Is that okay with you? Am I ALLOWED to feel this way without you automatically assuming that I am a bigot or suffering from a phobia?
> 
> Do I HAVE to accept a mutilated penis as a vagina, just because a man identifies as a woman? I am being serious.


Lmfao there is no way you can post insane shit like this and not sound like the definition of irrationally afraid

It's like saying "do I *HAVE* to accept that blacks and whites can go to the same school, or am I racist?? I am being serious." Trans people exist, they're valid, and their gender is not something decided by any genitals or the outbursts of an insecure transphobe. No one is saying you have to be attracted or want to have sex with everyone on earth (there are cis women you wouldn't want to have sex with, obviously) but the idea that someone isn't a woman just because you're upset about how they identify is both hilariously insecure and also factually wrong.

You are not the arbiter of anyone's identity. No one cites you on anything, least of all how someone identifies.


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> It's not? You tried really hard to bend what I said into that lmao


Don't even have to bend that, you are so deluded you don't even realise what kind of BS you propagate.


LainaGabranth said:


> Lmfao there is no way you can post insane shit like this and not sound like the definition of irrationally afraid


I love how people like you are always self-projecting. If your comments showed anything than that you, aswell as the majority of the community of make-belief, is afraid of the """""normal""""" people that are still left.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> It's not? You tried really hard to bend what I said into that lmao



You can lmao all you want, but that is the topic of the thread.



LainaGabranth said:


> Barring the fact that not all trans people actually need SRS, you should probably be intelligent enough to understand the difference between someone wanting bottom surgery to better affirm their identity (given that studies show it vastly reduces suicide and depression rates) and saying "You have to be this gender, because you were born with this genital!"



If gender is a a social construct, then someone shouldn't be coerced or encouraged to get SRS or put on a path to transition.  Especially in the case of child.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

HalfScoper said:


> Don't even have to bend that, you are so deluded you don't even realise what kind of BS you propagate.
> 
> I love how people like you are always self-projecting. If your comments showed anything than that you, aswell as the majority of the community of make-belief, is afraid of the """""normal""""" people that are still left.


who are you again?


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

Also thinking that I have to have dealt with you to respect my opinion, you are one self-centered piece of shit.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> If gender is a a social construct, then someone shouldn't be coerced or encouraged to get SRS or put on a path to transition.  Especially in the case of child.


Correct, because no one is. The only people thinking that people should be coerced into SRS are transphobes who fabricated an "epidemic" of people doing this socially. The reality is the people who attempt to enforce SRS as a requirement to even be trans are universally condemned in the LGBTQ+, to the point we even have words for them like truscum and transmedicalists, both of whom believe you have to be medically diagnosed and given surgery to be valid.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 18, 2022)

HalfScoper said:


> Also thinking that I have to have dealt with you to respect my opinion, you are one self-centered piece of shit.


truly the best attitude for someone who literally begs for money in his signature.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> truly the best attitude for someone who literally begs for money in his signature.


Idk, I'm not about to shame someone for begging for money (capitalism is a plague after all) but I do think getting tilted that I don't care what he thinks is pretty embarrassing.


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> we even have words for them like truscum and transmedicalists


Way to go with hypocrisy (racism or whatever fancy word you people would use)


Dark_Ansem said:


> truly the best attitude for someone who literally begs for money in his signature.


And? You are just jealous because you didn't come up with it aswell, now piss off.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 18, 2022)

HalfScoper said:


> And? You are just jealous because you didn't come up with it aswell, now piss off.


Nope, but thanks for playing! You get the "I try and fail" ribbon!


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

Cool and I couldn't give less shits because it comes from someone who goes offtopic.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

HalfScoper said:


> Way to go with hypocrisy (racism or whatever fancy word you people would use)


I mean, that's not hypocritical in the slightest, but you're welcome to be as mad as you like!


----------



## osaka35 (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> If you think you have a better approach for creating politics and news content, I'd glady read it. Thanks for the suggestion.


having actual news and political content would be nice. you tend to post fringe anti-science rhetoric rather than actual news articles. it's...entertaining, but definitely nowhere near any kind of base journalistic integrity.


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I mean, that's not hypocritical in the slightest, but you're welcome to be as mad as you like!


All your comments are blaming transphobes for the way they act, yet you are the one calling certain people within your group of clowns slurs, this is by definition hypocritical but go on being deluded, this thread ain't worth any more of my time.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Correct, because no one is. The only people thinking that people should be coerced into SRS are transphobes who fabricated an "epidemic" of people doing this socially. The reality is the people who attempt to enforce SRS as a requirement to even be trans are universally condemned in the LGBTQ+, to the point we even have words for them like truscum and transmedicalists, both of whom believe you have to be medically diagnosed and given surgery to be valid.



"No one is".  That doesn't make sense to me.  Are you saying that no one is pressured, right before saying how people do put pressure?

Do you encourage the use of puberty blockers and/or SRS?  Do you think those who are against such things are automatically "transphobic"?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> "No one is".  That doesn't make sense to me.  Are you saying that no one is pressured, right before saying how people do put pressure?
> 
> Do you encourage the use of puberty blockers and/or SRS?  Do you think those who are against such things are automatically "transphobic"?


Did you notice the part where I said "epidemic" in quotes, as if to say that there are no large movements of pressure and intentionally try to strawman because you don't have an argument or are you just illiterate?



HalfScoper said:


> All your comments are blaming transphobes for the way they act, yet you are the one calling certain people within your group of clowns slurs, this is by definition hypocritical but go on being deluded, this thread ain't worth any more of my time.


LMAO??? TRUSCUM IS NOT A SLUR WTF

Bro are you okay?????


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

Question from the audience,

Is it transphobic if those dont want to have sex with trans people?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Question from the audience,
> 
> Is it transphobic if those dont want to have sex with trans people?


Let me ask you this as a thought experiment; is it racist to not want to have sex with black people as a white person?


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Let me ask you this as a thought experiment; is it racist to not want to have sex with black people as a white person?


no, its preference


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Lmfao there is no way you can post insane shit like this and not sound like the definition of irrationally afraid
> 
> It's like saying "do I *HAVE* to accept that blacks and whites can go to the same school, or am I racist?? I am being serious." Trans people exist, they're valid, and their gender is not something decided by any genitals or the outbursts of an insecure transphobe. No one is saying you have to be attracted or want to have sex with everyone on earth (there are cis women you wouldn't want to have sex with, obviously) but the idea that someone isn't a woman just because you're upset about how they identify is both hilariously insecure and also factually wrong.
> 
> You are not the arbiter of anyone's identity. No one cites you on anything, least of all how someone identifies.


Where is the FEAR? 

I do not like penis. 

Is that okay? 

If a man is born with a penis, then chops it off, and gets it reshaped into the facsimile of a vagina, it's STILL a penis. 

I might have mentioned this before, but, I do not like penis. 

How is that an act of FEAR to not like penis?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> no, its preference


Trick question, there is no correct answer because every view on this is valid; I understand the preference angle but I also think it'd be a little weird for someone to say they don't ever wanna have sex with a black person. It's too messy of a question, be it trans, racial, or whatever to truly say it is or isn't discriminatory imo, it would depend on the individual's reasoning for such.

On the whole though I have already expressed that genital preference is a valid thing prior in this thread. So if someone doesn't want to have sex with someone who has a penis because they don't like penises, that's fine. It just doesn't mean the person they're turning down is a man.


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Let me ask you this as a thought experiment; is it racist to not want to have sex with black people as a white person?


Are you saying trans-phobia is the same as racism? Because you're comparing apples to oranges with your "thought" experiment.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Did you notice the part where I said "epidemic" in quotes, as if to say that there are no large movements of pressure and intentionally try to strawman because you don't have an argument or are you just illiterate?



You can say that it is an "epidemic" or a false one, but the fact is that you have a name for the people who do put that kind of pressure.  I'm just confused by your mixed signaling.  Are you just saying it isn't as a big of a deal that you think that I think it could be?  I honestly don't know, so the conclusion is that you are projecting.  

Do you encourage the use of puberty blockers and/or SRS? Do you think those who are against such things are automatically "transphobic"?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Are you saying trans-phobia is the same as racism? Because you're comparing apples to oranges with your "thought" experiment.


I am that discrimination is discrimination, whether you target race, age, gender, sexuality, and so on.


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Let me ask you this as a thought experiment; is it racist to not want to have sex with black people as a white person?


Ok one last response because this notification symbol annoyed me. And this is actually a good example for why I hate propagists like you so much.

It's not racism, it's preference.



LainaGabranth said:


> weird for someone to say they don't ever wanna have sex with a black person


It's not weird, still preference, I would also never do that.

You'd say in a reversed case it's not transphobic, it's preference then.
HOWEVER, the goal of this ABC movement is to raise awareness and to enforce accepting the clowns as normal people.
BUT I know nobody that would honestly smash a clown even though they propagate tolerance.
And let me tell you something, I had sex with one of those clowns after their surgery, I was desperate and it didn't feel nice.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You can say that it is an "epidemic" or a false one, but the fact is that you have a name for the people who do put that kind of pressure.  I'm just confused by your mixed signaling.  Are you just saying it isn't as a big of a deal that you think that I think it could be?  I honestly don't know, so the conclusion is that you are projecting.


I cannot help with your illiteracy.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I am that discrimination is discrimination, whether you target race, age, gender, sexuality, and so on.



What about for being "LainaGabranth" of gbatemp?



LainaGabranth said:


> I cannot help with your illiteracy.



What I said isn't illiterate.  You can refer to any current dictionary.  I can also help you understand the nuance that you are having difficulty grasping.  Just ask.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

HalfScoper said:


> Ok one last response because this notification symbol annoyed me. And this is actually a good example for why I hate propagists like you so much.


holy shit lmao even my notifications upset you? Laina Derangement Syndrome in full effect hahahahahahahah


----------



## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> holy shit lmao even my notifications upset you? Laina Derangement Syndrome in full effect hahahahahahahah


I said the symbol of notification, I didn't refer to you, again, self-centered pos.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

HalfScoper said:


> I said the symbol of notification, I didn't refer to you, again, self-centered pos.





HalfScoper said:


> *Ok one last response*


lol


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Trick question, there is no correct answer because every view on this is valid; I understand the preference angle but I also think it'd be a little weird for someone to say they don't ever wanna have sex with a black person. It's too messy of a question, be it trans, racial, or whatever to truly say it is or isn't discriminatory imo, it would depend on the individual's reasoning for such.
> 
> On the whole though I have already expressed that genital preference is a valid thing prior in this thread. So if someone doesn't want to have sex with someone who has a penis because they don't like penises, that's fine. It just doesn't mean the person they're turning down is a man.


The REASON that a straight male would turn down a man who had mutilated his penis and thinks he is a girl is because that set of mutilated genitals is STILL a penis. 

A lot of people do not find breast implants attractive, for a lot of different reasons. It's simply not the real thing, no matter what you say. It's elective surgery that mutilates the body, and for some folks, that is a turn-off. 


If I turn down Caitlyn Jenner, I am turning down a man who went through a voluntary surgery to change the way his penis looks. I might have mentioned this before, but I am not a fan of the man gland. 

That does not make me a bigot.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Trick question, there is no correct answer because every view on this is valid; I understand the preference angle but I also think it'd be a little weird for someone to say they don't ever wanna have sex with a black person. It's too messy of a question, be it trans, racial, or whatever to truly say it is or isn't discriminatory imo, it would depend on the individual's reasoning for such.
> 
> On the whole though I have already expressed that genital preference is a valid thing prior in this thread. So if someone doesn't want to have sex with someone who has a penis because they don't like penises, that's fine. It just doesn't mean the person they're turning down is a man.


Understandable,  reason i asked is due to this, it all boil's down to Preference.

We can all prefer who we want, but if you dont mind someone but dont want to have sex with them, is it X-phobic?

Also sorry for people poking fun at you for my comment.


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 18, 2022)

HalfScoper said:


> this thread ain't worth any more of my time.


Not that your time was worth anything to begin with


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Understandable,  reason i asked is due to this, it all boil's down to Preference.
> 
> We can all prefer who we want, but if you dont mind someone but dont want to have sex with them, is it X-phobic?
> 
> Also sorry for people poking fun at you for my comment.


Nah it's all good, out of the usual righties on this you seem pretty rational on the subject. Wouldn't mind a real discussion sometime.

No, I don't think preference is inherently discriminatory, it's the reasons why behind them that can make that. There's a difference for example between "I don't find this skin color as attractive" (as weird as that still sounds imo) and "This skin color would make the downfall of my entire race and civilization," an actual opinion you can find from some users here.


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## HalfScoper (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> lol


God forbid me reloading the page for new reponses when I am already here, you answer within a minute so I really don't have to give two shits about someone literally waiting for someone else to respond


Dark_Ansem said:


> Not that your time was worth anything to begin with


Again nothing of value added, I at least tried to reply to the deluded nonsense that Laina was propagating.
Finally gonna unwatch this cesspool of entitled Americans and screeching UK island apes.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> The REASON that a straight male would turn down a man who had mutilated his penis and thinks he is a girl is because that set of mutilated genitals is STILL a penis.
> 
> A lot of people do not find breast implants attractive, for a lot of different reasons. It's simply not the real thing, no matter what you say. It's elective surgery that mutilates the body, and for some folks, that is a turn-off.
> 
> ...


why do you keep trying to declare your transphobia like it's a brave stance? You aren't being brave by publically shitting your pants LMAO



HalfScoper said:


> God forbid me reloading the page when I am already here


"last reply + 2" huh?


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## Sheimi (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> So a child given puberty blockers can reproduce later in life if the treatment is continued?


Once you stop taking puberty blockers, it can take some time for the fertility to return. But don't assume it is a 100% birth control. You can still get pregnant.


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## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> why do you keep trying to declare your transphobia like it's a brave stance? You aren't being brave by publically shitting your pants LMAO
> 
> 
> "last reply + 2" huh?


I have asked you repeatedly, sir; WHERE IS THE FEAR? 

You know you have no counter-argument, so you fall back on "DURRR, YUR A TRUMP LOVING RACIST BIGOT TRANSPHOBE!"

All the while refusing to answer the simple questions posed to you. 

There is no fear being demonstrated by a man who does not like penis, refusing to accept how you "identify" as your actual gender, when your genitals tell the truth. 

Surgery cannot change your gender. It can only mutilate your genitals. A post-op "T" individual still has their original, newly mangled, genitals.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> "DURRR, YUR A TRUMP LOVING RACIST BIGOT TRANSPHOBE!"


who mentioned trump in this thread?? the fuck?????

I think you're not just a transphobe, maybe you're irrationally afraid of staying on topic too :^)


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Nah it's all good, out of the usual righties on this you seem pretty rational on the subject. Wouldn't mind a real discussion sometime.
> 
> No, I don't think preference is inherently discriminatory, it's the reasons why behind them that can make that. There's a difference for example between "I don't find this skin color as attractive" (as weird as that still sounds imo) and "This skin color would make the downfall of my entire race and civilization," an actual opinion you can find from some users here.


Wouldn't mind a discussion as well, u usually prefer liking both sides for how they are and seeing issues in both of them, rn im pointing neural most of the time, nice talking to you. If you want discord in the siggy.


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## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> who mentioned trump in this thread?? the fuck?????
> 
> I think you're not just a transphobe, maybe you're irrationally afraid of staying on topic too :^)


Nah. We see you on all of the other topics, too. Any time someone actually starts making sense, you turtle up, accuse them of being a far-right conservative or a Trump lover, and bust out the tried-and-true accusations of homophobica, transphobia and bigotry.

It's just part of what people who aren't very good at logical debate do. Ad hominem is an easy out. I COULD insult you, but I try not to. I'd rather discuss the topic. Which relates to gender identity. Which is what you and I are discussing.

I argue that self-identification isn't based on reality, nor do you even pretend that it is. Elizabeth Warren identifies as Cherokee, for example. The Cherokee Nation has absolutely disavowed her. Rachel Dolezal identifies as a black woman. She is provably not black.

In both instances, both of these women were lambasted for "self-identifying" as something they could never actually be. Since YOU brought up a comparison between not being attracted to a specific race, and not being attracted to a specific set of genitals, please tell me how this is different.

Should we accept either woman as the race they identify as, even though they are ABSOLUTELY NOT that race, and could never actually BE that race?

Should we accept a person who uses hormone blockers and conversion therapy to mutilate and chemically alter themselves as something they can never actually be?

Your profile claims that you are female. You also claim to be 53 years old, so you could be SUPER clever and put your date of birth as 4/20 of 1969. Oh, so clever. So, you "identify" as a 53-year-old woman? 

If you are lying about that, it stands to reason that other people would also question your honesty in other regards. You can no more identify as being an age that you are not than you can a race that you are not than you can a gender that you are not. 

I'd appreciate an intelligent answer.


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> Nah. We see you on all of the other topics, too. Any time someone actually starts making sense, you turtle up, accuse them of being a far-right conservative or a Trump lover, and bust out the tried-and-true accusations of homophobica, transphobia and bigotry.
> 
> It's just part of what people who aren't very good at logical debate do. Ad hominem is an easy out. I COULD insult you, but I try not to. I'd rather discuss the topic. Which relates to gender identity. Which is what you and I are discussing.
> 
> ...



I thought it is pretty clear that sex does not equal gender to this person.  So I wonder if they are a victim of SRS, or if they pity people who are victim of SRS for the sake of "affirming" their gender in a such a misguided (trans-confused) way.

Seems like they don't want to answer and would rather claim I'm illiterate.


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## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I thought it is pretty clear that sex does not equal gender to this person.  So I wonder if they are a victim of SRS, or if they pity people who are victim of SRS for the sake of "affirming" their gender in a such a misguided (trans-confused) way.
> 
> Seems like they don't want to answer and would rather claim I'm illiterate.


Anyone who asks him a valid question is a transphobe. I feel like I am making perfect sense.


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> Anyone who asks him a valid question is a transphobe. I feel like I am making perfect sense.



You must be tolerant of me, not the other way around.


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## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You must be tolerant of me, not the other way around.


The way I have always looked at it is that I do not CARE what you identify as. Go be the prettiest princess on the block, if you so choose. Chop off that winkie and slap some silicone on your chest. Just don't expect me to call you 'ma'am', with your mutilated penis. Don't expect me to consider you a woman, or to want sexytimes with you. Go do YOU, and leave me alone. 

I will do me, and leave you alone. Might laugh at you for thinking that you're a girl, but no more maliciously than I would laugh at someone with a lame haircut or a dude with skinny jeans. Personal preference isn't bigotry. The greatest bigots are the ones who can't accept themselves as what they were born as, but want to FORCE you to accept them as their fantasy, and if you won't, you deserve to be attacked and shamed. 

You do you. I'll do me. That's fair for all. You can be a princess. I will still call you 'sir'.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

Huh, seem you chased him away.....


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> The way I have always looked at it is that I do not CARE what you identify as. Go be the prettiest princess on the block, if you so choose. Chop off that winkie and slap some silicone on your chest. Just don't expect me to call you 'ma'am', with your mutilated penis. Don't expect me to consider you a woman, or to want sexytimes with you. Go do YOU, and leave me alone.
> 
> I will do me, and leave you alone. Might laugh at you for thinking that you're a girl, but no more maliciously than I would laugh at someone with a lame haircut or a dude with skinny jeans. Personal preference isn't bigotry. The greatest bigots are the ones who can't accept themselves as what they were born as, but want to FORCE you to accept them as their fantasy, and if you won't, you deserve to be attacked and shamed.
> 
> You do you. I'll do me. That's fair for all. You can be a princess. I will still call you 'sir'.



If the concept of gender is too confusing or too much in the periphery, I would prefer to call them by name, them, or not at all.  That being said, person reads as an effeminate male trying to illicit attention that they think a woman would/should get.  I think it's pathetic trying to catfish people.  There are many people who are interested in that sort of thing.  Why try to trick people into buying it?


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> Nah. We see you on all of the other topics, too. Any time someone actually starts making sense, you turtle up, accuse them of being a far-right conservative or a Trump lover, and bust out the tried-and-true accusations of homophobica, transphobia and bigotry.
> 
> It's just part of what people who aren't very good at logical debate do. Ad hominem is an easy out. I COULD insult you, but I try not to. I'd rather discuss the topic. Which relates to gender identity. Which is what you and I are discussing.
> 
> ...


Be honest, is this a real persecution complex if yours performative as a parody of transphobia at large or are you just actually this unhinged?

I don't accuse someone of being a Trump supporter unless they rhetorically argue positions of his or support his positions. It's a set criteria. When I call people like UDR a racist, it is because he's arguing racist positions like racial biological essentialism, and so on.

So, like the above examples, the reason I call you a transphobe specifically is because you exhibit the most ridiculous persecution complex over your genital fixation. Idk man, it seems creepy and weird to boil down people to just their sex organs rather than their identities themselves. A woman isn't just a vagina, but if you argue this position is false (and you have to by necessity, otherwise transwomen who've had SRS are women) [they are btw] then you're left without anything to larp with.

So your position hinges upon logically inconsistent appeals to arbitrary parts of nature. It's not chromosomes, it's not genitals, it's not organs or anything of the sort that determine gender identity, because gender is something we, not organs or our DNA, assign.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Huh, seem you chased him away.....


IT jobs are a bitch, that's all I'll say. Starting to see why Catboy hates Snapd so much now.


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## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Be honest, is this a real persecution complex if yours performative as a parody of transphobia at large or are you just actually this unhinged?
> 
> I don't accuse someone of being a Trump supporter unless they rhetorically argue positions of his or support his positions. It's a set criteria. When I call people like UDR a racist, it is because he's arguing racist positions like racial biological essentialism, and so on.
> 
> ...


Repeating yourself over and over will not magically make me "transphobic", especially when I have asked you multiple, MULTIPLE times to show me where I have demonstrated any irrational fear of ANYONE. Yet you keep trying the same buzzword, over and over and over. It isn't having any effect on me, brother. You have to show me where the fear is for that to stick.

Persecution complex? I never said I was persecuted. I asked why YOU cannot accept that a man who does not like penis should not be called transphobic for not wanting to have sex with a man who has a penis that he mutilated so it kinda, KINDA resembles a vagina, but is still a penis. 

When it comes to sexual attraction, YES SIR, that is definitely boiled down to genitals. That's... kind of how that works. 

I feel like I have said this before, but how you SELF-IDENTIFY has no bearing on REALITY. See the arguments presented about Warren and Delozal, which you conveniently ignored. You can identify your penis as a vagina all you want, but you are still only ever going to be male. And it's not phobic of me to refuse to accept your FALSE IDENTITY as REALITY. 

Gender is absolutely assigned by chromosomes and genitals. Gender IDENTITY is a new social construct used by liberal leftists as a cudgel to bash other people with, when they run out of arguments. 

A penis is still never going to be a vagina, and I am not wrong or bigoted for knowing this fact.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> IT jobs are a bitch, that's all I'll say. Starting to see why Catboy hates Snapd so much now.


Understandable, Snap has been a asshole to me before, try to see if you can find the source code to it and tarball it.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Understandable, Snap has been a asshole to me before, try to see if you can find the source code to it and tarball it.


It's specifically installing snaps over apt even when I'm doing apt installs, so I'm probably just going to hit the fuckit button and install SUSE or some shit


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

Iirc you can disable snap entirely (Linux Mint has it by default) but that's a project for later, I'm kind of tired of Ubuntu lmao


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

I have another question, is it x-phobic to not let kids (Talking about 7 to 12 yo) to transition?


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> I have another question, is it x-phobic to not let kids (Talking about 7 to 12 yo) to transition?


Define transition, because the position you may hold is the one doctors also do. They typically go on puberty blockers, not on HRT or SRS.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Define transition, because the position you may hold is the one doctors also do. They typically go on puberty blockers, not on HRT or SRS.


Like changing gender, like surgical, the hole 10 miles


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## lolcatzuru (Aug 18, 2022)

Creamu said:


> 'NHS to launch network of local clinics amid a doubling in demand
> 
> The United Kingdom National Health Service is closing the gender identity clinic at the Tavistock and Portman Trust, the London-based facility whose practices have faced considerable scrutiny in recent years.
> 
> ...




this is all entirely fake science promoted by the alt right to promote their agenda,  all of this science is the safest science has ever been and will be and to question is is racism.... thats how this whole denial thing works, right?


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## lolcatzuru (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Define transition, because the position you may hold is the one doctors also do. They typically go on puberty blockers, not on HRT or SRS.



anything that doesnt endorse it is phobic.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Like changing gender, like surgical, the hole 10 miles


I just don't understand what you mean by euphemism. Like, what explicitly are you talking about? What procedures, and medication?


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I just don't understand what you mean by euphemism. Like, what explicitly are you talking about? What procedures, and medication?


Well, like undergoing surgery that changes your gender. is it transphobic to not allow that for your child? (Remember the age range i asked)


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Well, like undergoing surgery that changes your gender. is it transphobic to not allow that for your child? (Remember the age range i asked)


No, it's not, because doctors don't do SRS on minors, and imo shouldn't.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> No, it's not, because doctors don't do SRS on minors, and imo shouldn't.


I see.... Ok. It's nice to agree with people.


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## SScorpio (Aug 18, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> No, it's not, because doctors don't do SRS on minors, and imo shouldn't.


I think you are in agreement with a lot of people. And being that human brains don't stop changing well after 18, Dems have moved drinking to 21 and pushing for smoking an fire arms to 21. So how about remaining a minor until 21 for voting and SRS?


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> I see.... Ok. It's nice to agree with people.


The thing is I don't know of many people who do advocate for this position, srs for minors has never been something people want for minors because of all sorts of factors. Social affirmation and puberty blockers have shown to be more effective anyways, despite limited data.


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 18, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> I think you are in agreement with a lot of people. And being that human brains don't stop changing well after 18, Dems have moved drinking to 21 and pushing for smoking an fire arms to 21. So how about remaining a minor until 21 for voting and SRS?


Why would I give a shit what the Dems think?


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## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 18, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> I think you are in agreement with a lot of people. And being that human brains don't stop changing well after 18, Dems have moved drinking to 21 and pushing for smoking an fire arms to 21. So how about remaining a minor until 21 for voting and SRS?


In my home country you're not legally considered fully an adult until 20, you're not supposed to be able to buy and consume alcohol. Although no one really listens to that (me included, good times).

To be clear you're still expected to act and think like an adult well before then, and the age of consent is usually around 16 or lower depending on where in the country you live.


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## SScorpio (Aug 18, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> In my home country you're not legally considered fully an adult until 20, you're not supposed to be able to buy and consume alcohol. Although no one really listens to that (me included, good times).
> 
> To be clear you're still expected to act like an adult well before then, and the age of consent is usually around 16 depending on where in the country you live.


The US it was historically 18, but rights are slowly being stripped away and moved to 21. There's always been the complaint that at 18 you can join the military to be sent off to die for your country, but you weren't mature enough to have a drink at a bar.


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 18, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> The US it was historically 18, but rights are slowly being stripped away and moved to 21. There's always been the complaint that at 18 you can join the military to be sent off to die for your country, but you weren't mature enough to have a drink at a bar.


Once you are able to pay tax, you vote. No taxation without representation etc. So either drop child labour or start paying minors their due.


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## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 18, 2022)

My god, I just read this entire thread and I really want to throw up right now, this shit is just so vile (I think I died a little inside from reading...).
I'm sorry if I miss anything here, this is just so rotten and hard for me that I'm probably not thinking very clearly.

*Disclaimer: This post speaks very generally at everyone, I'm not calling out individuals just the ideas presented (feel free to make an idiot of yourself though saying I called you out specifically).*

Okay now for my response 
As someone who's non-binary (any pronouns, they're all fine for me) who doesn't always conform to the gender I was born as I can definitely see where people are coming from when they talk about people being harassed or coerced into hormones or therapy (I've definitely my share or that crap from people) but at the risk of making an opinion I think that if someone wants to do it then they should be allowed to do it, unfortunately this decision falls on them when they're young because that's when the unconscious and uncontrollable effects of puberty.  It just means we have to grow up faster, there's not really a good solution but I think it's better to grow up quickly and be able to understand and decide for yourself, I think that's a worthy sacrifice to make.

I also really hate the argument about the infertility of trans people because it's being made by other people, who don't have any business over the life decisions of others, I'd hate to hear what you'd think of asexuals for their decision to not want to reproduce. The truth of the matter is that whether or not gender is real doesn't matter because these people want to live their life a certain way and would rather kill themselves than be forced to not live their life that way.

Also I would like to touch on sexual preference for a moment, people have different sexual preferences and they should be respected. If someone doesn't want to have sex with someone because they weren't born male/female that is okay. Sexual preference is a very personal thing and it's probably not a great idea to share it publicly or ask people about theirs publicly, you have the full right to have sexual preferences but it isn't exeptable to go around publicly talking about how trans people are gross or that they're fake.
Just because you wouldn't want to have sex with them doesn't mean that you have the right to disrespect them either, if they want to be called ma'm that's their right and if you don't do it *you're a bad person*. It is not acceptable to disrespect other people because you disagree with their gender identity.

To those claiming trans people are an evolutionary misstep and that people should normally want puberty or something like that.  *Nobody *likes puberty, for trans people it's worse because they are a certain way mentally and their body is actively going against that, I do believe that they should definitely be allowed to stop that from happening to them as it could help them have a happy life down the road. If you're saying they shouldn't be able to do that because they won't be able to be essentially breeding machines (since you're only arguing for their ability to reproduce and not their quality of life) if they do that's a very cruel and utilitarian outlook, 

Finally I agree with the idea that copy-paste threads like these shouldn't really be allowed, there should be more scrutiny as to what counts as real news and science and what's just pseudoscience meant to promote discrimination and attempt to take away human rights, these types of threads just make everyone angry and don't really lead anywhere useful.

If you have any questions please reply, although don't expect me to respond to everything, #onlyhuman.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 18, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> My god, I just read this entire thread and I really want to throw up right now, this shit is just so vile (I think I died a little inside from reading...).
> I'm sorry if I miss anything here, this is just so rotten and hard for me that I'm probably not thinking very clearly.
> 
> *Disclaimer: This post speaks very generally at everyone, I'm not calling out individuals just the ideas presented (feel free to make an idiot of yourself though saying I called you out specifically).*
> ...



Here ill summarize this for u tempers, You can be whatever you want and like whoever you want..... just dont be a dick about it.


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## CraddaPoosta (Aug 18, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> Just because you wouldn't want to have sex with them doesn't mean that you have the right to disrespect them either, if they want to be called ma'm that's their right and if you don't do it *you're a bad person*. It is not acceptable to disrespect other people because you disagree with their gender identity.


If they WANT to be called "ma'am", that is their right. I agree. They have the RIGHT to WANT anything. 

I am under no obligation to become a liar just because someone wants me to play pretend with them, though. If I refuse to call a person with a penis "ma'am", that's my right, and if you don't tolerate it, you're a bad person. It is not acceptable to try to FORCE other people to lie. 

This is how "tolerance" works. I don't have to ACCEPT something to tolerate it. You don't have to ACCEPT my refusal to use preferred pronouns instead of reality to tolerate my right to that. 


Cheers.


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## DinohScene (Aug 18, 2022)

It seems people simply cannot discuss this in a civilized way.
Locked.


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