# Shin'en - Wii U has enough power for years to come



## DiscostewSM (May 29, 2013)

> We only know you need to treat the Wii U differently then those consoles because of a very different and in our view more accessible architecture. There is a lot power to unleash in the Wii U. Enough power for many years to come, at least from our point of view.
> 
> We know many people see us as Wii U experts. That is because we got a lot of technical praise for Nano Assault Neo but it’s not well deserved. Only very tiny bits of Nano Assault Neo took advantage of the Wii U architecture. We had the game from start in 720p at 60fps. We drew the complete game world twice for TV and GamePad. We had tons of overlays, special effects and even camera streaming and still had no GPU or CPU problems. So we simply had no reason to dig deep into the architecture. We didn’t expected to be seen as the spearhead of Wii U graphics as it undeserved, when looking at what the Wii U can truly achieve.


 
For something so graphical, it's very promising that they really didn't take advantage of the hardware to pull it off. They're basically saying NAN was a warm-up. I look forward to what they have in store in years to come.

 Source


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## the_randomizer (May 29, 2013)

A positive article about the Wii U? What sorcery is this?


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## lokomelo (May 29, 2013)

Before any angry arguments begin, let's keep clear that graphics prowess, or lack of graphics power, isn't the main reason why Wii U is not selling.


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## wolf-snake (May 29, 2013)

EA doesn't like effort


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## ShadowSoldier (May 29, 2013)

Man, when I bought Nano Assault Neo on the WiiU I was so blown away. Me and my friend absolutely love the game.

One thing I'm curious about though is if the WiiU is actually capable of doing 1080p for games. But still, I would love to see more games by Shin'en for the WiiU, maybe a sequel to Nano Assault with more levels and features.


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## BORTZ (May 29, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Man, when I bought Nano Assault Neo on the WiiU I was so blown away. Me and my friend absolutely love the game.
> 
> One thing I'm curious about though is if the WiiU is actually capable of doing 1080p for games. But still, I would love to see more games by Shin'en for the WiiU, maybe a sequel to Nano Assault with more levels and features.


 
Side note, do you know if the one for 3DS is good?


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## the_randomizer (May 29, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> Before any angry arguments begin, let's keep clear that graphics prowess, or lack of graphics power, isn't the main reason why Wii U is not selling.


 

Of course not, the reason is profitability of games. EA doesn't want to bother as much.


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## ShadowSoldier (May 29, 2013)

BortzANATOR said:


> Side note, do you know if the one for 3DS is good?


 
No idea. I was actually thinking about buying that, but the price is just too steep for my tastes.


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## the_randomizer (May 29, 2013)

The Wii U's problem was never the hardware, but how profitable games would be when ported over/released as multi-platform. For one reason or another, EA has animosity but no one knows why. The machine is capable, more so than we ever imagined, Frostbite 3 could be ported over, so could Unreal 4. Perhaps not perfectly intact, but it could be done.


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## Walker D (May 29, 2013)

Cool  ..some positiveness for a change

that "it has accessible architecture vs. its not as accessible as the others" talk seems to come and go often..    ...don't know how muck of a problem it could be for real to developers.. ..I guess that's not a big thing when they don't consider the WiiU though..


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## Gabbynaruto (May 29, 2013)

Knowing what Shin'en managed to do on the Wii (FAST Racing League), I'm certain they are not bluffing. Now just make some more Wii U games to prove it and we're done here. Hopefully, another FAST, or F-Zero if you're at it.


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## the_randomizer (May 29, 2013)

These guys must be the new Factor 5 because they seem to know more about the hardware than everyone except Nintendo. And that's a good thing


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## GameWinner (May 29, 2013)

Wow, that picture looks... wow...


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## TheCasketMan (May 29, 2013)

Wii U good news?!?  This is blasphemy!  This is madness!!!


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## Rydian (May 29, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> Before any angry arguments begin, let's keep clear that graphics prowess, or lack of graphics power, isn't the main reason why Wii U is not selling.


It's one of the reasons companies aren't developing as many games for it*, and people aren't buying due to the lack of games.

* - Difficulty is sorta' another reason, apparently.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

It's worth nothing coming from them because they're not a company with any integral heft. They're a Nintendo only developer and their catalogue of games doesn't include anything that marks them out as a company who'll be responsible for any real system sellers or games that'll appeal to a huge audience.

Good on them for sticking up for their _"f__ührer_" but without some kind of pedigree backing their claims (not in the sense they're able to use the Wii U's power but in the sense they'll make something worthwhile with it) it means nothing.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> One thing I'm curious about though is if the WiiU is actually capable of doing 1080p for games.


Several titles use native 1080p on the Wii U, such as Batman, Assassin's Creed 3, and MH3U (they use the same structures from Tri though, so it's still blocky).


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

Shin-en said:
			
		

> _"There is a lot power to unleash in the Wii U. Enough power for many years to come, *at least from our point of view.*"_





			
				Yahtzee said:
			
		

> _"I know it's your opinion but your opinion is just *wrong*"_


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

Based on the above this doesn't really count as news either...not when most people would have to Google Shin'en to have any idea who they are.


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## Deleted_171835 (May 29, 2013)

More from the interview...



> “The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of the current gen. It allows many things that were not possible on consoles before. If you develop for Wii U you have to take advantage of these possibilities, otherwise your performance is of course limited. Also your engine layout needs to be different. You need to take advantage of the large shared memory of the Wii U, the huge and very fast EDRAM section and the big CPU caches in the cores. Especially the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code. In the end the Wii U specs fit perfectly together and make a very efficient console when used right.”


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

> The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of the current gen



This statement sort of makes a mockery of everything else they have to say...


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## Rydian (May 29, 2013)

That sounds like what people who defended the PS3 were saying at first too...


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

soulx said:


> More from the interview...
> _
> 
> 
> ...


 
Because it's so easy to compare yourself to 8-year old hardware rather than upcoming hardware of the competition. Bah, won't even bother to read the whole thing - what a _"Nintendo Mouthpiece"_. The game industry isn't going to just stop because Nintendo's half-a-generation behind with their Wii U - the system_ doesn't_ have enough power to keep supporting multiplatform titles alongside the PS4 or the XBox One, at least not for _"years"_ as he claims.


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## Deleted_171835 (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> This statement sort of makes a mockery of everything else they have to say...


How so? The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of current-gen simply by nature of being a more modern part.


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## Veho (May 29, 2013)

soulx said:


> More from the interview...
> 
> *stuff*


So it's new and unusual hardware that takes some getting used to and learning in order to tap its full potential. Sounds like the same problems the PS3 was having. Nintendo has enough money (printed by the 3DS) to keep the WiiU afloat until enough gaems are made.


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## ShadowSoldier (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Because it's so easy to compare yourself to 8-year old hardware rather than upcoming hardware of the competition. Bah, won't even bother to read the whole thing - what a _"Nintendo Mouthpiece"_. The game industry isn't going to just stop because Nintendo's half-a-generation behind with their Wii U - the system_ doesn't_ have enough power to keep going with the same prowess as the PS4 or the XBox One, at least not for _"years"_ as he claims.


 
Just out of curiosity, because this has been on my mind for a while, but don't you ever get tired of having, correct me if it isn't, a huge pointy stick stuck up your ass when it comes to anything Nintendo?


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Just out of curiosity, because this has been on my mind for a while, but don't you ever get tired of having, correct me if it isn't, a huge pointy stick stuck up your ass when it comes to anything Nintendo?


 
Oh, it's not a stick and it's not _"whenever Nintendo is mentioned"_ - it's when people have the audacity to try and rub bullshit into other people's eyes, thinking it has the same effect as wool.

The Wii U falls flat on its face even as far as down-to-earth matters like the amount of memory is concerned, which is drastically smaller than in the competition's systems - within 2 to 3 years it just won't support the same multiplatform titles and this is something we have to grow to accept at this point.

By the way, since when was constructive criticism banned? Whenever a company goofs up, their customers should speak up _unless it's Nintendo_, eh?


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

soulx said:


> How so? The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of current-gen simply by nature of being a more modern part.


 
Which would make it next gen, not some unknown future generation of console. By their reasoning the PS4 and One aren't next gen consoles but some unspecified number of generations into the future. That's not how it works. We don't have missing numbers of generations inbetween console launches, and implying as much just makes me doubt the credibility of their statements.

Edit - to put it another way, in console generational terms is the Wii U likely to be more powerful than Sony's next console after the PS4?


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Because it's so easy to compare yourself to 8-year old hardware rather than upcoming hardware of the competition. Bah, won't even bother to read the whole thing - what a _"Nintendo Mouthpiece"_. The game industry isn't going to just stop because Nintendo's half-a-generation behind with their Wii U - the system_ doesn't_ have enough power to keep supporting multiplatform titles alongside the PS4 or the XBox One, at least not for _"years"_ as he claims.


Yes, what does a highly respected developer who created one of the most beautiful console games out there going to know about the system? Nothing compared to the knowledge and experience you've gained from complaining and dismissing anything that isn't negative about a system. 



xist said:


> Which would make it next gen, not some unknown future generation of console. By their reasoning the PS4 and One aren't next gen consoles but some unspecified number of generations into the future. That's not how it works. We don't have missing numbers of generations inbetween console launches, and implying as much just makes me doubt the credibility of their statements.


I think you are misunderstanding the statement, but I suppose it's not that clear.  He means several _GPU generations_ ahead of the current _console generations_.  He's not saying it will be better than the GPU included in the 12th generation of consoles.


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## ShadowSoldier (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Oh, it's not a stick and it's not _"whenever Nintendo is mentioned"_ - it's when people have the audacity to try and rub bullshit into people's eyes, thinking it has the same effect as wool.
> 
> The Wii U falls flat on its face even as far as down-to-earth matters like the amount of memory is concerned, which is drastically smaller than in the competition's systems - within 2 to 3 years it just won't support the same multiplatform titles and this is something we have to grow to accept at this point.
> 
> By the way, since when was constructive criticism banned? Whenever a company goofs up, their customers should speak up _unless it's Nintendo_, eh?


 
Except you're doing everything except constructive criticism.

It's also a bit asinine of you to judge what the WiiU is capable of without it even being out for a year or any real major titles released for it. I mean look at the 360. When Perfect Dark Zero (lol) was released, people praised it and loved it, thought that it was one of the best looking games in gaming.... then we found out what the 360 could really do and how terribly shitty the game actually was.

Case in point. Don't be a dick and give the console a chance, good lord.


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## Bobbybangin (May 29, 2013)

I _think_ EA's main problem with Nintendo is their love affair with drm and Nintendo's lack thereof. Not to mention they love to love companies that love drm. They didn't support the Dreamcast and you could just burn any one of those games and play it on that. $ony and Mi¢rosoft both do way more than Nintendo to stop piracy. More recently we can't overlook the Origin issue as well. There's really no other reason for EA to thumb their noses consoles like Sega's and Nintendo's that helped them establish their early success. Of course this is all speculation, but speculate is all you can do when EA won't release a statement saying what their exact problems with Nintendo are. Which only leaves you to believe that they're not good reasons.


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## Rydian (May 29, 2013)

Even I gotta' admit, Foxi, you were... pretty quick to rush in, guns blazing, foaming at the mouth.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> highly respected developer


 
Define highly respected.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> Define highly respected.


Someone who is praised for their programming abilities.

Btw, I edited my post to respond to yours.


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## Gahars (May 29, 2013)

Bobbybangin said:


> Of course this is all speculation but speculate is all you can do when EA won't release a statement saying what their exact problems with Nintendo are. Which only leaves you to believe that they're not good reasons.


 

R.I.P. Hanlon's Razor


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> Yes, what does a highly respected developer who created one of the most beautiful console games out there going to know about the system? Nothing compared to the knowledge and experience you've gained from complaining and dismissing anything that isn't negative about a system.


 
There's a lot of things that are positive about the system - I for one think the gamepad was a great idea, however that doesn't magically invalidate the fact that there's a lot of things wrong with the system and they should be addressed so that they can be rectified next generation. I don't see a reason why users should put their heads in the sand when Nintendo's pulling off another Wii _(quite literally too, as the CPU is based on the exact same technology)_.

It's cute that you guys are full of hope, but what this means is that _"Nintendo-exclusive developers will be able to develop for this Nintendo system for a long time"_ which comes as _no surprise_ as they also developed for the heavily-underpowered Wii and DS _(the latter of which somehow got outstanding support from third-party, which is somewhat a miracle, having the technical limitations in mind)_.



Rydian said:


> Even I gotta' admit, Foxi, you were... pretty quick to rush in, guns blazing, foaming at the mouth.


Wouldn't go as far as to say _"guns blazing and mouth foaming"_, I just have a particular dislike in _"don't panic, but do we have a pilot on-board?"_ types of statements.

This is really not adding anything to what we already know, it merely sounds nice. Nintendo developers will continue to develop for Nintendo systems because that's the horizon of their expectations in terms of specs, capabilities and total wiggle room.

I also hate when people compare themselves to those who are lower on the ladder in order to make themselves feel better _rather than looking at those who are higher on it_ in order to improve - this is the Wii U vs. Last Gen vs. Next Gen situation right there. It's cute that it's better than the PS3 and the 360, but it doesn't have nearly the size of the userbase of those two so it ultimately gets less interest anyways, and at the end of the day, when pitted against its true competition it falls flat.


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## Eerpow (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> Which would make it next gen, not some unknown future generation of console. By their reasoning the PS4 and One aren't next gen consoles but some unspecified number of generations into the future. That's not how it works. We don't have missing numbers of generations inbetween console launches, and implying as much just makes me doubt the credibility of their statements.
> 
> Edit - to put it another way, in console generational terms is the Wii U likely to be more powerful than Sony's next console after the PS4?


... probably as in gpu generations or rather generations of graphical advancements since what we had available with the PS360, not console generations.


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## Arras (May 29, 2013)

Bobbybangin said:


> I _think_ EA's main problem with Nintendo is their love affair with drm and Nintendo's lack thereof. Not to mention they love to love companies that love drm. They didn't support the Dreamcast and you could just burn any one of those games and play it on that. $ony and Mi¢rosoft both do way more than Nintendo to stop piracy. More recently we can't overlook the Origin issue as well. There's really no other reason for EA to thumb their noses consoles like Sega's and Nintendo's that helped them establish their early success. Of course this is all speculation but speculate is all you can do when EA won't release a statement saying what their exact problems with Nintendo are. Which only leaves you to believe that they're not good reasons.


Apart from these facts:
1. Sales on WiiU will be low because not many people own one
2. Porting games is not free

If they think it won't earn them money they won't do it. That's how a company works.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> I think you are misunderstanding the statement, but I suppose it's not that clear. He means several _GPU generations_ ahead of the current _console generations_. He's not saying it will be better than the GPU included in the 12th generation of consoles.


 
Yep, I wasn't interpreting it that way...and I'd bet that most people would read it the way I did than the way they mean. It's a silly way to say what they mean. Now you spell it out I get it, but generations when talking about consoles does not equate to GPU generations.

I don't think you could call Shin'en highly respected...their portfolio simply doesn't support the statement.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> There's a lot of things that are positive about the system - I for one think the gamepad was a great idea, however that doesn't magically invalidate the fact that there's a lot of things wrong with the system and they should be addressed so that they can be rectified next generation. I don't see a reason why users should put their heads in the sand when Nintendo's pulling off another Wii _(quite literally too, as the CPU is based on the exact same technology)_.
> 
> It's cute that you guys are full of hope, but what this means is that _"Nintendo-exclusive developers will be able to develop for this Nintendo system for a long time"_ which comes as _no surprise_ as they also developed for the heavily-underpowered Wii and DS _(the latter of which somehow got outstanding support from third-party, which is somewhat a miracle, having the technical limitations in mind)_.


You are dismissing him without any reason to.  You're just sure that he's wrong.  Your head isn't in the sand, it's up your ass.

I to find many things wrong with the Wii U.  I've posted about them.  That doesn't give me the right to respond to legitimate sources with an "I don't believe you" attitude.


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## Deleted_171835 (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> ~snip


They're referring to the GPU architecture, not console generations.

@Foxi4: Or maybe Shin'en just meant it would be enough "power for years to come" for _them_. No need to get on the defensive the second someone even hints at the Wii U's superiority to current-gen.


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> I to find many things wrong with the Wii U. I've posted about them. That doesn't give me the right to respond to legitimate sources with an "I don't believe you" attitude.


 
I fully believe that all Nintendo developers will support the system for many years to come _(whether it will be easy for the or not and with very varied results)_ for many years to come because they have _no other choice and no frame of reference_.

I value the opinion of a developer who's developed for several systems of several makes _more so_ than I value the opinion of a developer who's developing exclusive software, simply because they have a broader understanding of the subject.



soulx said:


> @Foxi4: Or maybe Shin'en just meant it would be enough "power for years to come" for _them_. No need to get on the defensive the second someone even hints at the Wii U's superiority to current-gen.


I agree. I wasn't getting defensive, I was underlining that the statement is a half-truth in my opinion - it's their opinion, but they have no frame of reference. If anything, it's the Wii U's support group that jumped me when I called bullshit on this statement, and I still think it's not reliable precisely because it comes from a studio that in a way doesn't know any better - were they developing for other systems and had said framework for comparison, their credibility would skyrocket in my eyes.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

soulx said:


> They're referring to the GPU architecture, not console generations.


 
Yeah, I got that from Joostin, but it's a silly comparison because it's mixing and matching generational terms, and making comparisons which aren't impressive considering we're not reliant upon the PS3 and 360 for much longer.

Honestly, some of their work is impressive, but until it's backed up by a critical and commercial success it achieves little. Doubly so if they're the only studio able to exploit the Wii U.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> Honestly, some of their work is impressive, but until it's backed up by a critical and commercial success it achieves little. Doubly so if they're the only studio able to exploit the Wii U.


The whole point he made was that they didn't have to exploit anything, except for a few tiny cases.  The game (which has enough eye candy to give them cavities) ran fine without having to do anything special.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> The whole point he made was that they didn't have to exploit anything, except for a few tiny cases. The game (which has enough eye candy to give them cavities) ran fine without having to do anything special.


 
It's something that's very difficult to quantify though, and even more difficult to determine if any other studio is equally capable of the same feats. Just look at the size of some of their games compared to the results they've produced.

At this point it's fair to say that a Nintendo specialist who has their fortunes under that banner has an imperative to understand the console better than others. If what they say is true then the implication is that the graphical standards we see in their games should be the blanket standard...which I doubt will happen, not because the Wii U is incapable of it (because obviously it is) but because it takes more understanding than Shin'en are implying. It'd be far more valuable a statement coming from a multi-platform developer though as they're not bound to that format.

Of course I'm happy to be wrong, but it's a "we'll have to see what happens" kind of statement.


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## Deleted_171835 (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I fully believe that all Nintendo developers will support the system for many years to come _(whether it will be easy for the or not and with very varied results)_ for many years to come because they have _no other choice and no frame of reference_.
> 
> I value the opinion of a developer who's developed for several systems of several makes _more so_ than I value the opinion of a developer who's developing exclusive software, simply because they have a broader understanding of the subject.
> 
> ...


Some of their programmers have worked on the 360. They certainly know their shit (managed to make this on the Wii in less than 40MB).

I don't see what's so unbelievable about what they said.

The Wii U's GPU is several generations ahead of current-gen consoles simply by nature of being a more modern part.
It has "enough power for years to come" for _their_ needs
Engine layout needs to be different to take advantage of the Wii U's increased power taking into account its strengths (big CPU caches, fast EDRAM, etc.)
They didn't say "the Wii U is some monster beast that will totally outclass the PS4 and curb stomp the Xbox One ensuring Nintendo's status as gaming God and Iwata as gaming Jesus to us all." They merely stated a couple facts and said that devs need to work around the Wii U's strength in order for games to demonstrate its superiority.


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

soulx said:


> Some of their programmers have worked on the 360. They certainly know their shit (managed to make this on the Wii in less than 40MB).
> 
> I don't see what's so unbelievable about what they said.
> 
> ...


I simply think that the statement is false when you put it in broader terms. Again, the Wii U has plenty of resources for those developers who are used to working with scarce resources in the first place, but it doesn't give a lot of wiggle room for experimentation. I don't think comparing to last generation hardware makes a lot of sense when the Wii U is not a last generation system - it's a next generation and should be compared with next generation hardware, it's simple as that. I do believe that games as we know them will rapidly advance with the release of the XBox One and the PS4 - the XBox 360 and the PS3 pretty much _"capped"_ what game developers could do simply because they always wanted to release their games on as many systems as possible. Once that cap is removed, I fear the Wii U might find itself in a very uncomfortable situation as the odd one out, and Shin-En fails to adress that simply because they ignore other next generation systems in this statement. All they're saying is _"this is better than the PS3/360"_ but this is something we know and something that's to be expected from a next generation system - what the users should really be interested in is whether or not it will fare well in comparison to the PS4 and the XBox One, because initially it surely will, but for how long is the real question.

Sorry lads, didn't mean to sound like the agressive party-pooper I probably sounded like.


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## Mantis41 (May 29, 2013)

Remember the hype for Quantum3 for the Wii. It helped but wasn't great.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

As I've stated multiple times across different threads:

It is certainly possible to create amazing looking games that are way better than what you would see on the PS360
In order to keep costs down, and retain perfect backwards compatibility, there is only ONE way to do it.
Obviously that means not all engines will work well on it (especially if they are older and depend more on raw power than cache), and that if you aren't used to such a style, it's going to be hard to use.  If it's already how you do things, then you've got plenty of power.


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## The Milkman (May 29, 2013)

Can we have a Wii U thread where Foxi and his band of merrymen don't come in and nip pick, or better yet , one where Shadow Solider doesn't actually respond and turn a thread into a debate about GPU gens or whatever?


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

The Milkman said:


> Can we have a Wii U thread where Foxi and his band of merrymen don't come in and nip pick, or better yet , one where Shadow Solider doesn't actually respond and turn a thread into a debate about GPU gens or whatever?


Not on this site.


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## The Milkman (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> Not on this site.


 

welp, back to Gamespot in that case, at least nobody there is smart enough to know what a GPU is.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> Obviously that means not all engines will work well on it (especially if they are older and depend more on raw power than cache), and that if you aren't used to such a style, it's going to be hard to use. If it's already how you do things, then you've got plenty of power.



But that's kind of contradictory to the spirit of the statement. Of course they're going to be able to work magic because they're Nintendo specialists. It remains to be seen if what is implied transmits across to other non-Nintendo branded dev teams.


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

The Milkman said:


> Can we have a Wii U thread where Foxi and his band of merrymen don't come in and nip pick, or better yet , one where Shadow Solider doesn't actually respond and turn a thread into a debate about GPU gens or whatever?


 
Yes, that's true. People with different opinions shouldn't discuss things on an internet forum - that'd lead us to having discussions and exchanging opinions. We should all share the exact same opinions and never, under any circumstances disagree with one another. I mean, what's the point of that?


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> But that's kind of contradictory to the spirit of the statement. Of course they're going to be able to work magic because they're Nintendo specialists. It remains to be seen if what is implied transmits across to other non-Nintendo branded dev teams.


As stated in the interview, it's not magic.  It's a different (and more current) style of programming.  Back in the last generation, frequency was everything.  Now it's about cache.  You see this same thing on computers now.  The difference is, they don't have a choice on the Wii U.


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## The Milkman (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Yes, that's true. People with different opinions shouldn't discuss things on an internet forum - that'd lead us to having discussions and exchanging opinions. We should all share the exact same opinions and never, under any circumstances disagree with one another. I mean, what's the point of that?


 

I'm not saying let's not have arguments and discussions. I'm saying having the SAME fucking argument over and over is annoying as hell, especially when it's the same people doing it over and over.

It's always the SAME people bashing whatever Nintendo related item, and it's always the SAME people defending it. Honestly, sit down and drink some tea or something.


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

The Milkman said:


> It's always the SAME people bashing whatever Nintendo related item, and it's always the SAME people defending it. Honestly, sit down and drink some tea or something.


 
But... Nintendo has the best-selling Next Generation platform*, why so serious, Milkman? 






_*...because it's the only one released so far. ;O;_


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> As stated in the interview, it's not magic. It's a different (and more current) style of programming. Back in the last generation, frequency was everything. Now it's about cache. You see this same thing on computers now. The difference is, they don't have a choice on the Wii U.


 
The confusion I have here is that this is effectively (as Foxi mentioned) the PS3 argument, where a console is great once you know how to work with it but there's an implicit difficulty in getting to grips with it. If this is a new style, and it doesn't transfer elements across to the other upcoming systems (which I'd assume it will given your statement but who knows at this point), then many people will just write the Wii U off as less capable when it's their own fault it's less capable...there's little incentive to get to grips with the Wii U if that's the case. Which no matter who's at fault is bad news for that console when there's a bubbling hive of competition at play.

Of course that won't effect companies that only code for one parent system (or group therein), but a statement from someone less Nintendo immersed might be more revelatory. (again as Foxi related earlier)


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## DiscostewSM (May 29, 2013)

I rather like Shinen's approach to this. "Enough power" for their needs, since they don't focus on extremely big projects, nor do they feel they must use superior hardware to get their games made. How many game companies nowadays think small, then build up, instead of thinking bigger than life, only to have costs and development troubles just as big? Tomb Raider, for example, sold millions, yet is considered a failure because of what it took to make it.


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## Ray Lewis (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Yes, that's true. People with different opinions shouldn't discuss things on an internet forum - that'd lead us to having discussions and exchanging opinions. We should all share the exact same opinions and never, under any circumstances disagree with one another. I mean, what's the point of that?


This escalated quickly;-). Fun to follow the discussion, ahhh, debate?  Flaming mixed in?  If I said some of those colorful things...well, look at my warn level.  Maybe make another dupe account?  Joking.

Wii U will be fine.  Exclusives are the gamble IMHO. Rydian, this was my point in another thread. To take it further; it is gaming, lol, have fun with it. Seen worse sites, and others so moderated that like 3 or 4 posts would bring permanent bans. System fans are worse than gangs. I imagine a fight scene like Anchor Man with bikes, chains, bats with nails, etc.

no warning meter?  It is 5, milkman says it is not visible.


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## The Milkman (May 29, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> But... Nintendo has the best-selling Next Generation platform*, why so serious, Milkman?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Ugh, just sit down.


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## Foxi4 (May 29, 2013)

The Milkman said:


> Ugh, just sit down.


 
Sense of humour. Grow it.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> The confusion i have here is that this is effectively (as Foxi mentioned) the PS3 argument, where a console is great once you know how to work with it but there's an implicit difficulty in getting to grips with it. If this is a new style, and it doesn't transfer elements across to the other upcoming systems (which i'd assume it will given your statement but who knows at this point), then many people will just write the Wii U off as less capable when it's their own fault it's less capable...there's little incentive to get to grips with the Wii U if that's the case. Which no matter who's at fault is bad news for that console when there's a bubbling hive of competition at play.
> 
> Of course that won't effect companies that only code for one parent system (or group therein), but a statement from someone less Nintendo immersed might be more revelatory. (again as Foxi related earlier)


I'm not saying Nintendo is amazing or something, or disagreeing with you.  I'm pointing out how things are.  The PS4 and X1 will cost more and have no backwards compatibility, but in exchange, developers have a lot more freedom with how they code.  They aren't constrained to one style if they want to develop 8th generation games.

What's better is subjective.


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## The Milkman (May 29, 2013)

@Ray Lewis

We cant see your warn level just so you know.



Foxi4 said:


> Sense of humour. Grow it.


 

Better jokes, get em.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> I'm not saying Nintendo is amazing or something, or disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out how things are. The PS4 and X1 will cost more and have no backwards compatibility, but in exchange, developers have a lot more freedom with how they code. They aren't constrained to one style if they want to develop 8th generation games.
> 
> What's better is subjective.


 
Thanks, I didn't want to come across as argumentative for the sake of it and hopefully I haven't. For me a statement like this is fine but doesn't amount to much taken in isolation. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the future holds and whether the potential is delivered.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> Thanks, I didn't want to come across as argumentative for the sake of it and hopefully I haven't. For me a statement like this is fine but doesn't amount to much taken in isolation. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the future holds and whether the potential is delivered.


I'm tired of the belief that the Wii U is too weak to run next gen games. It can, but it has to be done in a specific way that many won't find appealing. So I don't think we'll see many cross-platform games come to the Wii U, unless lots of developers are willing to change for one console when they can use the same style they've used before with the PS4/X1.


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## The Milkman (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> I'm tired of the belief that the Wii U is too weak to run next gen games. It can, but it has to be done in a specific way that many won't find appealing. So I don't think we'll see many cross-platform games come to the Wii U, unless lots of developers are willing to change for one console when they can use the same style they've used before with the PS4/X1.


 

Wasn't that the case last gen?


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

The Milkman said:


> Wasn't that the case last gen?


No, because the Wii was still way behind the PS360 no matter how games were developed.


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## The Milkman (May 29, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> No, because the Wii was still way behind the PS360 no matter how games were developed.


 

Ahh, I see.


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## FAST6191 (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> This statement sort of makes a mockery of everything else they have to say...
> 
> 
> > The Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of the current gen



http://xkcd.com/1070/

DirectX 9.0c was the PS360 starting point (roughly based on Nvidia 7900 GTX and Radeon X1000)

DirectX 10
DirectX 10.1
DirectX 11
DirectX 11.1 

OpenGL is pretty much the same (they supported 2.0)

Though some have said the Wii U is possibly a DX10.1 card I guess that means it plays.


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## JoostinOnline (May 29, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Though some have said the Wii U is possibly a DX10.1 card I guess that means it plays.


Wii U's GPGPU Squashes Xbox 360, PS3; Capable Of DirectX 11 Equivalent Graphics


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> snip


 
You're missing the rest of the conversation where i assumed they meant console generations rather than specifically GPU generations.


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## FAST6191 (May 29, 2013)

xist said:


> You're missing the rest of the conversation where i assumed they meant console generations rather than specifically GPU generations.



My bad -- I was going off an old version of the thread I had opened before I went off to be domesticated. It was only supposed to be poking fun anyway.


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## xist (May 29, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> My bad -- I was going off an old version of the thread I had opened before I went off to be domesticated. It was only supposed to be poking fun anyway.


 
No problem...at least you understood what they meant, but it demonstrates that someone like you who is experienced in the area gets it but someone like me who is familiar with the traditional use of generation in console terms misses their point.


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## Psionic Roshambo (May 30, 2013)

People keep saying the Wii U is weak... Too weak for what? FPS games? RPG's? I wonder what games could not be created... Sounds to me like wishful thinking. So far the weakest part of the console seems to be the DRM. I wonder if the added power of the other consoles will truly add anything or will developers be delivering the exact same types of games we have been playing since the PS2. I guess only time will tell but in retrospect did the PS3 deliver a single game that could not have been done on the PS2 but in SD?


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## the_randomizer (May 30, 2013)

I love how people are saying that it's weaker than last gen


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## DSGamer64 (May 30, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> The Wii U's problem was never the hardware, but how profitable games would be when ported over/released as multi-platform. For one reason or another, EA has animosity but no one knows why. The machine is capable, more so than we ever imagined, Frostbite 3 could be ported over, so could Unreal 4. Perhaps not perfectly intact, but it could be done.


 

If they actually took the time to sit down and rework those kinds of engines to run on the Wii U, that would be one less thing to worry about. Epic says Unreal Engine 4 won't run on the Wii U? I question whether they have extensively attempted to make it work or not. If the Xbone with it's only slightly faster graphics card (I mean really, the thing is only 1.4 Teraflops, the Wii U's is only 1 Teraflop supposedly), can run it then the Wii U should be able to as well.


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## Chary (May 30, 2013)

TheCasketMan said:


> Wii U good news?!? This is blasphemy! This is madness!!!


 
THIS. IS. NINTENDO!!!


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## FAST6191 (May 30, 2013)

Psionic Roshambo said:


> People keep saying the Wii U is weak... Too weak for what? FPS games? RPG's? I wonder what games could not be created... Sounds to me like wishful thinking. So far the weakest part of the console seems to be the DRM. I wonder if the added power of the other consoles will truly add anything or will developers be delivering the exact same types of games we have been playing since the PS2. I guess only time will tell but in retrospect did the PS3 deliver a single game that could not have been done on the PS2 but in SD?



It is an interesting question with many answers. Given that the Wii can emulate probably everything up through the N64 given a chance then yeah it could run pretty much any of the gameplay styles save perhaps mega RTS and simulations at that scale (though you just say something like cloud/server side and that vanishes if you want it too -- http://www.illyriad.co.uk/ might be a nice example).

If the Wii U hardware is hard to code for (and interesting float performance/techniques, bad SIMD and worse multicore would rather make it the case) then it means either building something from the ground up, radically altering your existing codebase compared to other platforms doing something else entirely. In high end software development, especially one where engine reuse is a thing, that is almost as killer as it simply being underpowered (start over and radical change are dirty words in just about every field that aims to get something done™). It would then take some serious incentive (and the very real possibility of bugger all sales is anything but) to go in for the Wii U.

PS3 and PS2... that is not a simple question. In many ways that would be a yes but in others the actual hardware/memory/general levels of resources skyrocketed somewhat. Also given the PS360 is still effectively running at SD a lot of the time.... (see all the upscaling stuff in later games). I am inclined to say no but I might see it happen for the PS4/xbone and current consoles on various levels.

People have been saying that the PS360 lacks the resources to create truly big levels for games. How much of that is truly a technical limit, a technical limit that could be worked around by streaming some stuff into memory properly, an actual game design decision, a game design decision made because of no money/open world is hard or something else is very much up for debate. I could probably generate examples for each and every one of those and they would hold up against a call of "but skyrim/just cause 2".

On technical workarounds. These require proper thought at the coder's level and maybe even before then. If the new consoles simply have more resources you can abuse then this could change things (optimisation is hard, time consuming and very very boring). History has born this out as well -- where devs were wringing every drop out of the old hardware the new stuff can and did allow for johnny just finished a java programming school to make things with nearly the same end result as one that knew the old hardware inside and out. As coding elegance and prowess matter surprisingly little in the face of actual results this becomes something worth noting. On the flip side my dev team might now include 5 types of texture artist where before a 3d modeller might have done, to this end some are already predicting budgets can not afford to balloon too much more if the same three/four markets are to be the main thing that is tapped in the same way as before (and nobody is looking to be doing anything too radical here). Of course giving said big team a bit of breathing room can make for a few good things and the actual results thing does come back into play here.

Spinning it once more the PS4/xbone could afford a lot of interesting techniques as far as AI, dynamic generation of content, possibly physics and more go and that could make the Wii U a running joke when it comes to ports. Personally I hope it is explored but I am not overly hopeful such a thing will happen any time soon.

In short you are unlikely to be troubled by any one style of gameplay, especially if constrained to a normal 20 hour game, but it could take quite a bit of effort to do and more if you plan to do it across several platforms without the Wii U being lead platform. As coder time and effort is a precious resource you do not need to be spunking it away if you have money to make so it could see the Wii U being snubbed.


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## heartgold (May 30, 2013)

I'm having a deja vu in this thread.

Same people, same voice of opinions. Every Wii U thread. Lol

While it's true that Wii U GPU is several gens ahead of current gen. Expect Retro or whomever to take advantage of it. No one is saying it will crush the performance of the next gen consoles. You can still get your pretty Nintendo games. Wasn't need for speed using PC textures and such, Zombie U looked amazing too.

We have to see if the Wii U can hold on to multiplatforms with ps4 and Xbone and for how long.


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## Ray Lewis (May 30, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> I love how people are saying that it's weaker than last gen


Anyone else wonder if Nintendo will try for higher specs to address all markets?  What if PS4 had Nintendo exclusives this cycle?  Wii U is a decent system though.


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## Dork (May 30, 2013)

Wii U threads start with people making jokes about it, then it ends with people getting seriously asspained over them.

This always happens.


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## Ray Lewis (May 30, 2013)

Dark S. said:


> Wii U thread. I guarantee if start with people making jokes about it, then it ends with people getting seriously asspained over them.
> 
> This always happens.


The key is if enough Wii U sales occur.  Profit potential;-)  I guarantee that like the 3ds, if Wii U goes on a role in sales, you will see a reason to explore dev for this system.  Also, over time, those that will dev may show more tools for other devs.  Systems never start at peak potential.  The longgggg write up made a lot of sense.  Cool one dev sees ways to grow within Wii U hardware.  Big companies look at earning potential--not potential for a system to become profitable if they dev for a system;-).


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## Gahars (May 30, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> I love how people are saying that it's weaker than last gen


 

...But nobody's saying that, at least nobody in this discussion. It may be weaker/more difficult to work with in certain respects, hence stuff like the apparent troubles with porting over the Frostbite engine, but that's something else entirely.

You're laughing at a strawman of your own invention here.


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## the_randomizer (May 30, 2013)

Gahars said:


> ...But nobody's saying that, at least nobody in this discussion. It may be weaker/more difficult to work with in certain respects, hence stuff like the apparent troubles with porting over the Frostbite engine, but that's something else entirely.
> 
> You're laughing at a strawman of your own invention here.


 

Perhaps I am without realizing it, but I was just referring to the mentality of people on other forums. I guess you could say that the people I'm referring to are _*ign*_orant 

People in other discussions on other forums are focusing on the hardware as the sole determining factor in a console's success.


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## ShadowSoldier (May 30, 2013)

Gahars said:


> ...But nobody's saying that, at least nobody in this discussion. It may be weaker/more difficult to work with in certain respects, hence stuff like the apparent troubles with porting over the Frostbite engine, but that's something else entirely.
> 
> You're laughing at a strawman of your own invention here.


 
But at the same time, that's just laziness of people not wanting to figure it out. I mean, for the first couple years in the PS3's life cycle, every developer was talking about how much of a bitch it was to develop with the Cell processor. Hell, even Hideki Kamiya openly criticized it. But people got used to it, and some of the best games was made for it.

The WiiU is no different. Just take the time to understand it and its weaknesses and put that GPU to work.


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## DiscostewSM (May 30, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> But at the same time, that's just laziness of people not wanting to figure it out. I mean, for the first couple years in the PS3's life cycle, every developer was talking about how much of a bitch it was to develop with the Cell processor. Hell, even Hideki Kamiya openly criticized it. But people got used to it, and some of the best games was made for it.
> 
> The WiiU is no different. Just take the time to understand it and it's weaknesses and put that GPU to work.


 
Unfortunately, that scenario is a bit different than this one, on the account that at the time, it was relatively the most powerful console on the market with it staying that way for years to come. They traded time, which they had for that generation, for learning the hardware. With the Wii U, it is the most powerful console on the market right now, but by the end of this year, it won't be. Devs would rather push it to the side, arguing that it is weak without really giving it a test run, in favor of more powerful hardware that, technically speaking, would allow them to be a bit lazy, but still put out some power-driven games.


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## Sterling (May 30, 2013)

DiscostewSM said:


> Unfortunately, that scenario is a bit different than this one, on the account that at the time, it was relatively the most powerful console on the market with it staying that way for years to come. They traded time, which they had for that generation, for learning the hardware. With the Wii U, it is the most powerful console on the market right now, but by the end of this year, it won't be. Devs would rather push it to the side, arguing that it is weak without really giving it a test run, in favor of more powerful hardware that, technically speaking, would allow them to be a bit lazy, but still put out some power-driven games.



Yeah, I can see Nintendo relying on first party support to drive sales. That's the reason I buy Nintendo consoles in the first place. However, with all this talk about the Wii U being hard to code for, but with only marginal gains, I think third party support is going to be incredibly sparse this generation. It makes me kind of sad to be honest.


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## Hielkenator (May 30, 2013)

Looking at what shi'nen did on the Wii, I have high hopes.
The games they did on Wii ( Wiiware ) are also very very impressive on a graphical standpoint.


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## DiscostewSM (May 30, 2013)

Sterling said:


> Yeah, I can see Nintendo relying on first party support to drive sales. That's the reason I buy Nintendo consoles in the first place. However, with all this talk about the Wii U being hard to code for, but with only marginal gains, I think third party support is going to be incredibly sparse this generation. It makes me kind of sad to be honest.


 
Unless I'm mistaken, the ones that seem to say the Wii U is difficult to program for are the ones that really didn't attempt to work with the Wii. The Wii U, while having many new things, does extend much of what the Wii started with, so it only seems natural that those that attempted and continued to work with the Wii are not having such a hard time with the Wii U, including Shin'en.


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## shakirmoledina (May 30, 2013)

According to the extra credit's video, wii u is for aesthetics over graphics. to me that is more important. I don't want tessellation but I want vibrancy.


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## FAST6191 (May 30, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> for the first couple years in the PS3's life cycle, every developer was talking about how much of a bitch it was to develop with the Cell processor.
> 
> The WiiU is no different. Just take the time to understand it and its weaknesses and put that GPU to work.



I will have to see about the former. I could envision a scenario where Sony paid some high end programmers to sort out nice to use libraries/code fragments/frameworks and given it was the SDK just as much as the processor that got people bitching and the PS360 ultimately became a thing (nominally the PS3 probably could have done a bit more) I do not see it as all that unlikely.

The Wii U would also be different to that scenario -- suspect PS3 higher precision float capabilities aside (one of the other criticisms) it was as powerful/perhaps slightly more than the competition. For all that I said in my last post the Wii U is in anything but that situation. Similarly multicore/multithreaded coding is hard (and if as noted Nintendo do not have the niceties afforded by more modern multicore architectures it could trouble what ease is afforded by them), GPU coding is harder (I have not even got a worthwhile GPU H264 video encoder and they have had years to do it) and game environments are not all that conducive to either of them (crunch my massive data set already in a database -- fair enough, crunch data where the player can suddenly decide to run looking at the sky back to the start of the level, spin round shooting bullets in time to she's coming round the mountain and then fall off a cliff wearing night vision goggles during the day -- not so easy to predict/account for ahead of time)


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## xist (May 30, 2013)

DiscostewSM said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, the ones that seem to say the Wii U is difficult to program for are the ones that really didn't attempt to work with the Wii. The Wii U, while having many new things, does extend much of what the Wii started with, so it only seems natural that those that attempted and continued to work with the Wii are not having such a hard time with the Wii U, including Shin'en.


 
But consider where we are in hardware time-lines. With the PS4 and One just around the corner work will be under-way for those platforms, so it's only logical that a company with it's fortunes invested in Nintendo's success is going to be better versed in it's functionality. Everybody else is arms deep in other systems too. Until the Wii U is accessible to all, or popular enough to warrant the time to become familiar with it, the alternatives with much more familiar architecture are likely to attract the most attention.


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## Taleweaver (May 30, 2013)

Am I the only one who thinks that Shin'en isn't the best spokesmen about the hardware, exactly _because_ of what they've pulled off on the wii*?


I've played Jett Rocket and FAST, and it's downright amazing at what they can squeeze from the wii. To me, however, that means they're good at optimizing performance and keeping wasted resources to a minimum. I can but assume that they worked on Nano assault neo with that same ideology. I can believe that when they just tested their prototypes/alpha versions/whatever, they didn't encounter a single issue. Nor after adding all the visual stuff they could throw at the thing. The whole issue, however, is that they are used to using subpar technology. I can perfectly believe that _they_ aren't going to run into technical limitations with the wiiu anytime soon...but their style of game isn't exactly putting it to test. I mean...I don't want to compare shin'en to a tetris-making company, but if one of the latter companies claims that they'll have no shortage for resources whatsoever to develop their game...then it really isn't saying that much.


*perhaps I should say "am I the only one actually discussing the topic instead of hardware bragging?", but let's not go there.


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## Foxi4 (May 30, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> I love how people are saying that it's weaker than last gen


 
Nobody in their right mind says that. What people are saying is that the difference isn't massive in the grand scheme of things - you have to consider other Next Gen systems in such comparisons. 

What I'm saying here is that there is a specs jump from the PS3/360, yes... but with the PS4/XBox One in mind, it's not as big of a jump as one might expect from a Next Generation system.


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## the_randomizer (May 30, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Nobody in their right mind says that. What people are saying is that the difference isn't massive in the grand scheme of things - you have to consider other Next Gen systems in such comparisons.
> 
> What I'm saying here is that there is a specs jump from the PS3/360, yes... but with the PS4/XBox One in mind, it's not as big of a jump as one might expect from a Next Generation system.


 
Just summing up what people on the internet in general are saying, not necessarily this forum or topic per se, but I definitely should have clarified that better. My bad   But you are right, the gap won't be as astonishing as it was when the Wii was pitted against the other two.


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## Parasite X (May 30, 2013)

Finally some good news about WiiU instead of negativity now if we could get more games similar to DS/3DS  games but made for WiiU instead I would truly be happy.

You're not dealing with a normal Super Saiyan, you're dealing with a Super Saiyan God.


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## ShadowSoldier (May 30, 2013)

Parasite X said:


> Finally some good news about WiiU instead of negativity now if we could get more games similar to DS/3DS games but made for WiiU instead I would truly be happy.


 
Honestly, this is my theory on what Nintendo is going to do.

Give us a whole slew of amazing 3DS games. Then they're going to give us a whole slew of amazing WiiU games, then slowly give us both, albeit more spaced out.


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