# Do you think piracy hurts the gaming industry?



## CJL18 (Jul 1, 2010)

I think it does i admit i wouldnt of even bought a wii, or psp if i couldnt play backups.  the only system i would of bought regardless if i couldnt mod it was the 360.   the only reason i dont have a ps3 is beucase you cant hack it, and 60dollars for a game is WAY to much.  Some games are very worth it, but games like Naughty bear, Raven Squad, domination, i mean just terrible terrible games.  Gotta ask yourself no wonder people pirate games.  What do you think?


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## Antoni-YO! (Jul 1, 2010)

I agrizzel. Should have added a pole to this.

VIDEO GAMES FTW...


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## Urza (Jul 1, 2010)

Of course it does.

What kind of stupid question is that.


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## Schizoanalysis (Jul 1, 2010)

CJL18 said:
			
		

> games like Naughty bear, Raven Squad, domination, i mean just terrible terrible games.  Gotta ask yourself no wonder people pirate games.  What do you think?




It is a destructive circle. As long as people don't pay for games, game developers will not put large amounts of money into making great games.

Piracy = cheaper games


Back in the days before piracy became mainstream, there were lots of great games... these days, there seem to be less and less...


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## Urza (Jul 1, 2010)

Schizoanalysis said:
			
		

> CJL18 said:
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That's probably due to the opposite cause.

Now, there are far more video gamers and its an exponentially larger industry. As such, even crappy games are bound to make a profit. You don't need to stand out with a blockbuster hit anymore.


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## Schizoanalysis (Jul 1, 2010)

Far more video gamers, but far more pirates... You'd have to look at sales figures to see if more or less games are sold these days...


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## Urza (Jul 1, 2010)

Schizoanalysis said:
			
		

> Far more video gamers, but far more pirates... You'd have to look at sales figures to see if more or less games are sold these days...


The amount of pirates does not increase linear to the sale rates.

Not even close.


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## IchigoK2031 (Jul 1, 2010)

My uncle said it best: Piracy = more system sales, therefore Piracy is needed


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## Zarcon (Jul 1, 2010)

Schizoanalysis said:
			
		

> Back in the days before piracy became mainstream, there were lots of great games... these days, there seem to be less and less...


I don't know about that. It's going to be a lot easier for us to remember the good games "back then" than the bad ones.
I'm sure if you go and look there will be a mountain of crappy games too.
It's just that now the industry is so large combined with mainstream scene lists for game dumps makes all the bad games easier to spot.
There are a lot of great games now too, people are either too jaded or too stuck in the old days to notice is all.


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## Hakoda (Jul 1, 2010)

Not at all since some people actually buy the games they pirate and only pirated it to "demo" the game.


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## AceOfAces (Jul 1, 2010)

IchigoK2031 said:
			
		

> My uncle said it best: Piracy = more system sales, therefore Piracy is needed



Your uncle is a wise man.


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## murkurie (Jul 1, 2010)

not really, usually if you pirate something, it's because you never intended to buy it, thus no sale lost. So no it does not hurt it.


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## spinal_cord (Jul 1, 2010)

Only a little and not for the reasons that the big companies say it does. The more a system is pirated, the more game reviews it has (because more games are actually getting played on that system). that stands to reason, the more games you play, the more games you will tell people about. The more games you tell people about, the more bad reviews you will give. The more bad reviews you give, the less likely it is that people will BUY that game.
A far worse problem for the games industry (and I do mean FAR WORSE) is used game sales. Think about it, if you go to your local specialist games store, you will see loads of used games for sale only slightly cheaper than the new ones. Many people will choose the used games because they are cheaper. This is where the companies GENUINELY LOOSE PROFIT. 
Pirates are not prepared to spend money, therefore are not potential customers. However, people guying used games ARE prepared to spend money, but choose the cheaper option, which gives profit to someone other than the publisher, THAT counts as a lost sale.
The publishers need to focus their efforts on stopping used game sales rather than stopping piracy because as I stated, used sales damage them in a far worse way that piracy ever could.


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## Njrg (Jul 1, 2010)

You don't sell 9 million+ copies of Dragon Quest IX in Japan only...
20+ Million units of Pokemon Diamond/Pearl
and almost 10 million copies of Gold/Silver, a remake mind you... And then question if Piracy is killing industry sales...

Piracy isn't hurting the industry... its recession if your blame should be pointed at anything. If people want to buy a game, they will, just like how I bought Future Future Future Perfect just because I wanted to.


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## ojsinnerz. (Jul 1, 2010)

CJL18 said:
			
		

> I think it does i admit i wouldnt of even bought a wii, or psp if i couldnt play backups.  the only system i would of bought regardless if i couldnt mod it was the 360.   the only reason i dont have a ps3 is beucase you cant hack it, and 60dollars for a game is WAY to much.  Some games are very worth it, but games like Naughty bear, Raven Squad, domination, i mean just terrible terrible games.  Gotta ask yourself no wonder people pirate games.  What do you think?
> Oh, please. You think YOU have it bad? Us Canadians pay nearly 80 dollars for new games (69.99 + 12% tax). I buy it like this pretty often.
> 
> Over in Europe, you pay nearly 100 USD in some countries, and same goes for Australia, JUST TO BUY ONE SINGLE FUCKING GAME. You should be fucking GLAD that the price of games aren't as bad as the other countries.
> ...


Too bad software companies and third party companies would be fucked.


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## Schizoanalysis (Jul 1, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

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Did I say this?

The amount of pirates increases according to the ease of pirating (broadband being a major factor).

To say that there are higher video game sales now because there are more gamers ignores one major factor: not all gamers buy games. The increase in gamers may be due to the increased accessibility of roms & isos.

DVD sales have slumped.
CD sales have slumped.
It's not such a jump in logic to imagine that game sales have also slumped.


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## murkurie (Jul 1, 2010)

Schizoanalysis said:
			
		

> Urza said:
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CD sales have only dropped because of digital downloads for cheap prices and the ability to just buy 1 song


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## Talaria (Jul 1, 2010)

Schizoanalysis said:
			
		

> Urza said:
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Increase in Blu-Ray sales and Blu-Ray players
Internet music sales have increased dramatically
Increase in purchased Video downloads


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## Urza (Jul 1, 2010)

Schizoanalysis said:
			
		

> To say that there are higher video game sales now because there are more gamers ignores one major factor: not all gamers buy games. The increase in gamers may be due to the increased accessibility of roms & isos.


Except the number of gamers who don't buy games is an incredibly small minority.

I'd go as far to say that the majority of even those who frequent _this_ site buy at least a few games a year across the various platforms.


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## luckwii (Jul 1, 2010)

I don't think this question can be answered. How can you prove whether someone would have bought an individual game or not if it wasn't for piracy. Everyone is different, and have different reasons for doing things. Not to mention people's moods, bank accounts, or reason for doing things change throughout the day. So overall, to try and recreate the exact moment that either they hit the download link or went to the local Gamestop and busted out the wallet in a spur of the moment purchase, is hard to compare.


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## Alex666 (Jul 1, 2010)

Maybe piracy hurts the industry... (but i dont think so)
But if there was no piracy people like me or other europeans/americans wouldnt have a chance to play japanese games and the other way round.
Its a good thing it even helps bringing people together from all over the world... and a thing that does this cant be bad right?


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## luckwii (Jul 1, 2010)

Or one more point. I am a cheap bastard. I never buy new games, only used. Does this hurt Nintendo and third party sales? Is Gamestop to blame for new sales profit loss?


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## deka01 (Jul 1, 2010)

its a catch 22 we want cheaper games so we pirate less games sell and the price goes up


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## Sterling (Jul 1, 2010)

deka01 said:
			
		

> its a catch 22 we want cheaper games so we pirate less games sell and the price goes up


As stated before, pirates are a small minority. Corporations  want excuses like pirates to drive the prices up.


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## alucard77 (Jul 1, 2010)

Pirating is a good excuse for Game companies to give when their crap game doesn't sell as well as they thought it would.

It's like Movies.  Everytime a movie flops, it's because of Piracy.  I remember 5 years ago, piracy was destroying the movie industry.  Only problem was, that year was full of craptastic movies.  A couple years later, the movie industry had their best year ever.  Piracy wasn't down, just the movie industry released better movies.


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## Zarcon (Jul 1, 2010)

This can be summed up pretty easily, and Urza has already answered as such.
"Do you think piracy hurts the gaming industry?"
Yes, of course it does.
"Does it hurt as much as the industry claims?"
Probably nowhere close.
There was a US government study that even proved all those "factual" numbers people quote all the time are complete garbage, highly exaggerated, or straight up lies.

Incidentally, Dragon Quest IX has sold 4.31 million copies.
In Japan alone.
DQVIII sold 4.99 million worldwide, 3.68 million in Japan.
DQIX is looking to potentially be the best selling DQ game to date.
(Based on VGChartz anyway, haha)


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## Rayder (Jul 1, 2010)

I'm sure piracy does hurt the industry, but nowhere near the levels they try to make out that it does.  Not every download equals a lost sale, but for maximum media effect, they always use those over-inflated figures to make things appear worse than they are to shock the public into feeling guilty.

But I must say, for a system that is actually still in production, piracy on DS lite is more mainstream than any other gaming system ever has been before, since it's as simple as buying a flashcart to pirate the hell out of 99% of its software.  Frankly, it's amazing to me that they haven't already ended regular DS (games and systems) in favor of strictly DSi-only games and systems.  If they did that, they could kill piracy on the DS (well, DSi anyway) instantly.

I know, I know, you are all saying PC's have the highest piracy rates.  Well yes, but that's different, the PC is quite simply the catalyst for ALL piracy.  Piracy is able to happen, at current levels, BECAUSE OF PC's.  So yeah, I'm not counting the PC in this debate. 

I summarily discount any system not still in production from the piracy debate. If you can't get the games or systems at retail anymore, and I mean where the company that produced the goods don't profit from the sales of those goods, then I personally consider it "fair game" to pirate the hell out of it, regardless of THEIR "official blah-blah" opinions on the matter.  Maybe this is the reason they haven't killed the regular DS just yet.....their argument over DS piracy holds more water when the regular DS is still in production, and they just lump DSi in with it.  I don't think the DSi is selling anywhere near what the DS lite has done. Maybe killing the DS now would hurt sales worse than piracy?  Hmm.....

I also think any translations (like Tales of Innocence or Soma Bringer, for example) can be discounted too, since they never intend to bring out an English version anyway.  It's not my fault if their BS licensing issues, or some other inane reason, stopped the developer from localizing it themselves.  This is the internet age Jack!  We browse, we see, we want, and we don't like being told no when we see something we want.


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## metamaster (Jul 1, 2010)

I don't think that piracy hurts the industry that much, since they are selling software. I mean seriously, I doubt that the price for creating software is near as high as the selling price (around 50$) x the number of people who bought it. But seriously. 50$ for _software_?? A bunch of pirated games don't affect the hundreds of thousands of dollars of income they get from selling retail games.


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## Michishige (Jul 2, 2010)

CJL18 said:
			
		

> I think it does i admit i wouldnt of even bought a wii, or psp if i couldnt play backups.  the only system i would of bought regardless if i couldnt mod it was the 360.   the only reason i dont have a ps3 is beucase you cant hack it, and 60dollars for a game is WAY to much.  Some games are very worth it, but games like Naughty bear, Raven Squad, domination, i mean just terrible terrible games.  Gotta ask yourself no wonder people pirate games.  What do you think?



I have to point out a contradiction in what you just wrote; you say that you think piracy hurts the gaming industry but in the next sentence you say that you wouldn't have bought a Wii and PSP if you couldn't play backup games. I'm going to assume that you pirate games (no judgement) but if you weren't able to hack the Wii or the PSP then you wouldn't have bought it in the first place and thus Nintendo and Sony DID make money off of you from the consoles you bought that you wouldn't have bought if piracy wasn't possible. 


In regards to my own opinion on piracy; I like to try before I buy. I don't want to spend 100 dollars (that's what a game costs over here) on a game that I will quit after 5 minutes because I didn't like it. I pirate a game only to try it out, if I like it then I definitely want to pride my shelf by having it on it, so of course I'll buy it!


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 2, 2010)

I can remember reading somewhere that the average music/video pirate spends at least 3 times more on them a year than people who don't ever pirate. It wouldn't surprise if something similar is true for games. I know for a fact I own a lot more games than any of my IRL friends. They generally have 5 or 6 games in a pile next to their console/s, I have a small room full of them.

EDIT: I think that censoring PAL games to the strictest countries standards across the board is doing more damage. No blood in NMH in Europe 'cause the Aussies aren't allowed it is pathetic and an obvious cost cutting measure. And the rest of Europe and Australia getting no swastikas in WW2 games not because the Germans have censored it, but because the companies are too pussy to actually try and get it through as reasonable use in a historical setting, is even more pathetic.


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## neotank19 (Jul 7, 2010)

alucard77 said:
			
		

> Pirating is a good excuse for Game companies to give when their crap game doesn't sell as well as they thought it would.
> 
> It's like Movies.  Everytime a movie flops, it's because of Piracy.  I remember 5 years ago, piracy was destroying the movie industry.  Only problem was, that year was full of craptastic movies.  A couple years later, the movie industry had their best year ever.  Piracy wasn't down, just the movie industry released better movies.



well said! I dont think piracy hurts the industry, my living room has a stack of wii and gamecube games higher than the tv.


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jul 7, 2010)

It's one of those unknowables.

I can go on the newsgroup, and I can see all the stuff that is available, but there is simply no way to measure how many people will have downloaded the file.

How many buy after try?

How many try and discard as it was crap.

How many buy next game as they thought the first proved the company was good.

How many hate a company after seeing two titles were clearly crap.

I am not here to defend piracy, can't be done.

I didn't buy my Nintendo DS just because I can download the games. But I sure as hell look at anything before I buy if it isn't an obvious purchase in the first place.

I think the industry does things to hurt itself that piracy alone can't even hope to equal.

Blank media, you do realize that it is sold by the same people eh?
Disc burner drives, the same thing.
They don't even try to make it hard. For instance, you would think Sony would refuse to make burner drives just so someone else could be blamed.

Marketing. I hear Strike Witches season 2 is set to be 50 bucks an ep. Oh like that will help sales eh. I like watching girls with nothing but panties on below the waist only so much 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 It's not worth 50 bucks an ep to me. I will settle for the sub downloads no doubt, and if I miss a few spicy shots only available on the dvd oh well.

Have you heard of OnLive? I wonder, if you were told games could only be played online from now on, needed much less fancy hardware, and cost only a monthly fee ie 15 bucks a month, not 80 bucks up front, would you complain if you were told this way or not at all?

I hear a lot of comments whining about internet connections this and internet connections that. Oh gimme a fucking break. I download gig after gig of data all the time. If a good internet connection matters to you, you'll get one. Picture playing a game, you pay 15 bucks and it isn't all that great. You're out 15 bucks, not 80. If you play it to death in 2 months, you invested 30 not 80.  Most people bore of most games, or they finish them within a few months. So you pay for 5 months of game, and then you move on.

OnLive might work, it might not. But it is out there as we speak. We will see soon enough, if this variation on the idea worked this time.


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## Hells Malice (Jul 8, 2010)

Most people wouldn't buy what they pirate.
I know for a fact i'd only have bought maybe 10% of what I pirated.

Actually, probably not. Since i'd only have bought them AFTER playing the game (most are DS games, and a few PC games).

Most people are the same way.

Piracy drops sales by maybe 5-10%, if that.


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## Blaze163 (Jul 8, 2010)

I pirate quite a bit of stuff, but to be fair it's not like I'm not contributing to the gaming industry. I still pay for all my main console games, it's only my handhelds that are hacked. And I've put more than my fair share of cold hard cash into the industry over the last 20 years. So it's not like I'm stealing everything. I just cut my expenses by pirating on handhelds because at the moment I don't have a job, ergo little to no money. My video games are more often than not my rock, that tiny little thing that keeps me sane. Without my Cyclo and now my PSP, I'm pretty sure I'd have gone bat shit crazy and killed someone by now.

Seriously.


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## GreatZimkogway (Jul 8, 2010)

Not really.  The excuses they give are moot, as when I do buy games, I very often buy them used.  Thus...they're still not getting my money.


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## Rayder (Jul 8, 2010)

I've gotten to a point where I don't really care if it hurts the industry or not.  Free is better than pay.


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## KingVamp (Jul 8, 2010)

Rayder said:
			
		

> I've gotten to a point where I don't really care if it hurts the industry or not.  Free is better than pay.


So how bout if it killing/kills the industry ?


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## VmprHntrD (Jul 8, 2010)

CJL18 said:
			
		

> I think it does i admit i wouldnt of even bought a wii, or psp if i couldnt play backups.  the only system i would of bought regardless if i couldnt mod it was the 360.   the only reason i dont have a ps3 is beucase you cant hack it, and 60dollars for a game is WAY to much.  Some games are very worth it, but games like Naughty bear, Raven Squad, domination, i mean just terrible terrible games.  Gotta ask yourself no wonder people pirate games.  What do you think?


I used to be huge into the whole theft racket between in the mid 90s being an #oldwarez op and then #emu, to helping put a lot of NES games on the open market and other crap too.  I gave it up, slowly but surely and it's all gone.  Probably seems funny I'm here but I follow the emulation, rom releases for crap I may want to own or do, and because there's a good community here who do actually talk games and it is one of those rarer non-hate to be cool nintendo sites.

Answering your question, yes, a good bit.  I only take this stance from experience having been into making games at Midway in 2001 and 2002, but also in the gaming media for a few years after my stint with them too.  I get your arguments though, hell I used to use them as excuses to justify a lot for a good many years.  I unlike you have, even in that period, a conscience and enough smarts to know you got to buy at least some games if you buy the hardware.  Short of Nintendo all these other idiots sell hardware at a loss, so with you if you had got a PS3 then ripped everything and got it back at launch you alone would have put them $400 in the hole having never bought one game.  Now if a good enough people did that, Sony would quit making hardware as it would be a loss business that would put them under so why bother right?  I use them as example as my brother works for Volition(Red Faction/Saints Row) part of THQ, and the lead into this is the PSP.  The PSP people always are bitching about it not getting enough games despite the awesome hardware.  People like you are why that's the case (no idea if you have a psp or not, it's an example.)  THQ is now shying away from doing nearly any PSP work because the stuff they had been making was being stolen at such a high rate versus sold they were making nothing on their work, hell probably losing money. This has driven a lot of companies to not release PSP titles, or they'll dual release a halfassed up 'upgrade' such as Sega with Alien Syndrome on PSP and Wii.  Sure they'll play it off as a wider audience, but it's also a very low cost way to try and cut losses by moving more copies.  Sony did burn themselves not seeking developers arrogantly saying 'it is playstation they will come to us' for a stretch, but before that and after that time now they get little and piracy is the big voted upon reason why because outside of some 3K models and the Go, it's a pirates wet dream.

Now where I totally agree with you is the $60 price of games, it's bullshit.  I got my PS3 on a stupid deal of Circuit City going to hell a year and a half ago back when PS3 was still $400 in that period and with their 25-50% off sales window going I got it, 3 games, and a composite cable for $400(tax included in that.)  Since that time I've picked up at least a dozen games for it, and like another 6 or so as gifts, most I've kept...but one thing I've only done maybe once is pay full price as I have two things going for me.  I have patience, and I'm a cheap ass who looks for release week or somewhere in the month sales.  I got Uncharted 2, Gran Turismo PSP, and MGS Peace Walker PSP the weeks they came out, and each time I paid notably less at retail in a store.  I got them for $49, $25, and $29 respectively when they were $60, $40 and $40.  Around that I've also used craigslist to make trades such as getting Modern Warfare2 for that terrible Bad Company 2 on a swap so it was like $30/pc per game, and I got 2 weeks after launch GoW3 from a local dude for $40 and it even had the preorder codes intact.

There really is no need to be stealing shit if you can wait a day or a week, or a couple months for a title.  I've paid as little as like $15 for Dead Space nearly a year ago in a Target clearance bin, to $30 for $60 games when Circuit City ate it to what I already listed.  So yes piracy does hurt, nearly everyone has some lame fucking excuse that's inexcusable, and if you can show a little class and patience you can save some serious scratch at $60 a game is fucking greedy.  In all fairness I can think of 2 reasons piracy may be acceptable.  You're a kid with a shitty allowance and games have gotten too pricey and you're feeling the pressure and addiction, and as a minor w/no job your choices are limited.  The other is the economy is raped, you're on unemployment and food stamps, and well unless you did it to yourself it's not your fault and if you want it you'll go for it and maybe you could buy a legit copy later once the green is coming in once more, and when you're that depressed a gaming escape is clearly the better choice than sucking water or chomping a bullet.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jul 8, 2010)

Some games that they really do a great job on do deserve their money in my opinion. There are games that don't deserve their money because they're obscure and most hated! Like back in the 1980's when NES came out they're were so many obscure games that came out and they were a rip off and when you bought the game you'd really regret the games you do buy. Now and days most of the US & EUR 3rd Party games suck there but are some that are good. The Japanese 3rd Party games are better than the US & EUR Combined no joke!


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## nutella (Jul 8, 2010)

I think used game sales do more damage than piracy and the sad thing is the people who buy second hand games are actually paying for it.


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## Gagarin (Jul 9, 2010)

piracy = sea robbery. Period.

Things that are killing gaming industry are:
- Amazon.com and eBay (buying used games)
- GameFly and all rent a game stores.
- prices $59 per new game.

Look at iTunes. Everybody is stealing music but they can make so much money out of it.
Apps for iPhone apps cheap and people buy them. Maybe that's the way to go. 

Hacking is huge, but still it has to be 1% of users (expect Ds which is 7% according to my research


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## Deleted User (Jul 9, 2010)

Yes, but no-one cares as long as the companies carry on churning out consoles and games.


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## Deleted User (Jul 9, 2010)

I would put DS Piracy Levels at about 98%.


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## Daizu (Jul 9, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Of course it does.
> 
> What kind of stupid question is that.



I second this.

Well, I don't think it's too much of a problem. They're still making games right? There are still people buying them right? Besides, everyone I ask is oblivious to the fact emulators and rom's exist anyway. I think it will be a long time before it's considered a major major problem. Piracy isn't new.


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## Jolan (Jul 9, 2010)

JetKun said:
			
		

> I would put DS Piracy Levels at about 98%.


How the hell is Nintendo making money then?


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

Emulators? That's right. I have so many friends playing No$gba on PC.

But before it was much harder only for dorks. R4DS in 2007 was a revolution, no modchips, no soldering, no patching. After that Wanikoko and Dark Alex brought it to new level (I'm not sure who softmod X360), so now everyone can do it.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Gagarin said:
			
		

> Emulators? That's right. I have so many friends playing No$gba on PC.
> 
> But before it was much harder only for dorks. R4DS in 2007 was a revolution, no modchips, no soldering, no patching. After that Wanikoko and Dark Alex brought it to new level (I'm not sure who softmod X360), so now everyone can do it.


Neither the DS nor GBA ever needed hardware modification.

The R4 brought it to a new level of ease, sure, but it was already pretty fucking easy with the prior flashkits.


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## omgpwn666 (Jul 10, 2010)

Piracy definitely hurts the gaming industry, why wouldn't it? We're getting games for free, sucky or not we would probably buy a few of them if it wasn't for piracy. I would have Worms 3D for sure but then my friend said I could get it for free, so I did. I have not pirated for about a year or two now... Using torrents anyways.


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## Lord-x (Jul 10, 2010)

The industry will never die. No matter if it's big companies or independent developers or even hackers, games will keep on coming. So it really doesn't hurt that much.


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## YayMii (Jul 10, 2010)

Well, it depends on which part of the gaming industry you're talking about. For DS and PC, sure, because lots of DS gamers have flashcarts, and most PC gamers pirate games. For other consoles, not really. There are cons to having pirated games on those other consoles, such as loss of online play (and other online benefits). But some people only buy these consoles for the sole purpose of pirating games, and these people don't hurt the industry.



			
				ojsinnerz. said:
			
		

> Oh, please. You think YOU have it bad? Us Canadians pay nearly 80 dollars for new games (69.99 + 12% tax). I buy it like this pretty often.


Welcome to Alberta, heart of the oil industry. We have no provincial tax 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




(although we still pay the 5% GST). We pay approximately $73.50 CAD for new games, while you other Canadians pay approximately $78.40 (varies on the province). And don't forget the fairly cheap DS games (that I don't pay for). Those are almost exactly $42.00 including tax here, whereas over there, you pay approx. $44.80.

And don't get me started on Australian prices 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (They pay approx. $97.50 CAD for new games)


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

It's the ease of piracy that kills.


Piracy will damage the industry no matter what. It's getting something for free. I'm not even going to go into "potential" profit. I think that's a load of bullshit.

The second you pay for a game, you're allowed to play it. You can only play it when you pay for it. If you don't pay for it, you can't play it. Unless there's a demo. Many many pirates say that they only pirate to demo the media they're getting. It really doesn't matter. You still get the full experience for free. Who's really going to rent a movie and then buy it?

People say games shouldn't cost that much. Well, that's true, because companies want more money. I do see how games should cost more nowadays than before though. Just think of all the R&D needed for each quality game. Every texture, polygon, sprite, mechanic, engine, and design needs someone to make. DS games will no doubt cost less because there is just less content. Games for the PS3 and such are incredibly detailed and take a long time to make. They have to generate the graphics, test it out, make a story, get voice actors, test those out, and so on so forth. It's a huge daunting process.

Pirates get it all for free. You think piracy is just coping, right? Well, each game is technically a copy. The physical things you usually get with a game will obviously not come even close to a few bucks to create. The content is hard to make. When you get that content for free, it's stealing.

I don't get how people think digital things are worthless. It's the same as a physical thing. A lot of people believe that shoplifting is much much worse than piracy. No, it's not. It's stealing, and you can't argue that. Nobody cares that you just wanted to "try" that perfume or just a little of that Sprite. There are "demos" for those too. The thing is, you're still stealing no matter what. I don't get how people look down on shoplifting, but piracy is just carefree and whatever. Piracy is just as serious as shoplifting, if not more serious. 

The SecuROM and such software could be the security systems in real stores, or plastic wrapping. Everyone needs to open them, right? Why is stealing physical things not as serious as stealing data? It's still a product. It still costs money. It doesn't matter if you pay the fortuneteller to predict your future, or you hold him hostage to do it for free. It's something that you have to pay for.

I'm pretty sure many of you look down on "real thieves." I don't think a snatcher has stolen nearly as much as anyone on this forum. You people pirate willy-nilly, easily. Each time you download something, just pretend you had to pay for it. You technically have to. If you stole that much from a store, you'd have to pay out of the nose, and you'll be behind bars for some time. It's pretty serious. We're all thieves that owe many companies large sums of money.

I don't see how you can actually validate and defend piracy. It's stealing, no matter how you look at it. Something you normally have to pay for, and you're getting it for free. I can't stress this enough, because people just don't get it. Most of you would never even think of "actually stealing." But your'e doing it already. You're taking from the economy. Don't give me any of that bullshit of "free advertising." Sure, you can spread the word, but don't you think that the companies don't want you to take their product for free and do whatever you'd like with it? No. You could also say that you steal clothing from a store and wear it, and that's also free advertising. No. If companies were smart, they would let out demos or hold giveaways. They do, just not as much. The thing is, you people defend piracy like it's your mother.

Just because a few of you pirate have a couple of real games, don't you think that many many other pirates don't pay a cent for anything? You'll say they never cared and would have never bought it, or have no money. So what? Then they should not get it. They should not get something that they can't get. It's like saying I should just go steal a yacht because I'll probably never get one anyways. No. If you can't pay for it, you don't get it. Period. I don't care if the original never gets harmed, it's still something for nothing. It's like sneaking in on a concert. No, no, no. It's wrong, and is a crime.



I know I'm a criminal.
Don't justify your wrongs.


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## gameguy95 (Jul 10, 2010)

IchigoK2031 said:
			
		

> My uncle said it best: Piracy = more system sales, therefore Piracy is needed


i  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  your uncle 4 agreeing with me


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

@BakuFunn

While I agree with the majority of your post, I do want to make one comment. You compare DRM software to things like in-store security systems. A big difference is that a few of the various DRM "solutions" have malfunctioned in the past, either hindering or preventing legitimate buyers from playing the game at all. These are of course isolated cases and not the norm.

That being said, this fact doesn't grant anyone the moral high ground to steal the product.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

BakuFunn said:
			
		

> It's the ease of piracy that kills.
> 
> 
> Piracy will damage the industry no matter what. It's getting something for free. I'm not even going to go into "potential" profit. I think that's a load of bullshit.
> ...




I have rented many movies that I later bought...same with games.  And you're right, piracy is stealing.  I do however feel somewhat better about it if I would not have bought the game anyway.  I would pirate WAY less if they would let me return a game I felt was crap.  Here in Canada anyway, once you buy a game, you cannot get ur money back if it doesn't meet expectation.  And after pirating some games, boy am I glad I did not buy them, cuz I'd be shit outta luck.

90% of the games I have pirated were certainly not even close to good enough to warrent me paying $20-$30+, and while I know it's still theft, I feel in *some cases* it can be a victimless crime if the company that made the game would not have gotten my money anyway.

At the end of the day.  Piracy is theft and theft is wrong, but I don't care...ripping me off is wrong too.  I hope one day Canada lets consumers return ALL products they are not happy with.  I should not be forced to keep a game that I don't wanna play for more than 10 min.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> I have rented many movies that I later bought...same with games.  And you're right, piracy is stealing.  I do however feel somewhat better about it if I would not have bought the game anyway.  I would pirate WAY less if they would let me return a game I felt was crap.  Here in Canada anyway, once you buy a game, you cannot get ur money back if it doesn't meet expectation.  And after pirating some games, boy am I glad I did not buy them, cuz I'd be shit outta luck.
> 
> 90% of the games I have pirated were certainly not even close to good enough to warrent me paying $20-$30+, and while I know it's still theft, I feel in *some cases* it can be a victimless crime if the company that made the game would not have gotten my money anyway.
> 
> At the end of the day.  Piracy is theft and theft is wrong, but I don't care...ripping me off is wrong too.  I hope one day Canada lets consumers return ALL products they are not happy with.  I should not be forced to keep a game that I don't wanna play for more than 10 min.


The problem with that, is what's to stop everyone from returning their games immediately after completion?

Solution: Do what any slightly intelligent consumer does and _research before purchasing_.


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## Scott-105 (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> *I don't wanna play for more than 10 min.*


Agreed 100%


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Overman1977 said:
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give a 24hr return policy?

And as much as I research a game, actual play can be quite different....I've researched and even test driven cars that I was later very disappointed with.  And as a side note...I don't have the time to research every stupid little game a may wanna buy aside from looking at some screenies and noting the ratings....Job and bills and fiance and life get in the way.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> Urza said:
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As a consumer you're making a decision on whether or not that's a risk you're willing to take.

It doesn't give you any moral high ground to pirate.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

Well if a game can be beaten in 24hrs, excluding sleep, work, eating, and life...then I'd be happy to pirate it as it's not worth a dime.

never said it gave me the right...I'm just giving my reason.  It's stealing, plain and simple.... and plain and simple, sometimes I just don't care.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> Well if a game can be beaten in 24hrs, excluding sleep, work, eating, and life...then I'd be happy to pirate it as it's not worth a dime.


So you're saying that its ethical to steal a product which gives you less than (let's say) 16 hours of enjoyment?


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

NO, I'm not saying it's ethical, it's not...stop assuming.  I'm simply saying that's why I pirate.  it may be wrong, but I think some ppl may understand my reason for it.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> NO, I'm not saying it's ethical, it's not...stop assuming.  I'm simply saying that's why I pirate.  it may be wrong, but I think some ppl may understand my reason for it.
> QUOTEAt the end of the day. Piracy is theft and theft is wrong, but I don't care...*ripping me off is wrong too*. I hope one day Canada lets consumers return ALL products they are not happy with. *I should not be forced to keep a game that I don't wanna play for more than 10 min*.


Really sounds like you're making a claim of morality there.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

may wanna read that again then.  I clearly say piracy is wrong.   And simply state that i wish Canada would change it's return policy.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> may wanna read that again then.  I clearly say piracy is wrong.


You do state that, and then immediately renege it one ellipses later.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Overman1977 said:
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Take it how you like it.  I believe piracy is wrong.  I also believe forcing me to keep a game i'm not satisfied with is wrong, but that's a matter for stores and not a comment on piracy itself..  solution: let me return a game in some agreed upon time.   And done.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> Take it how you like it.  I believe piracy is wrong.  I also believe forcing me to keep a game i'm not satisfied with is wrong, but that's a matter for stores and not a comment on piracy itself..  solution: let me return a game in some agreed upon time.   And done.


Except you have yet to provide a reasonable solution for the problem.

A simple time-delimited return policy is absolutely not feasible for the reasons I stated in the prior post.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

My solution is too pirate.  Just because a store cannot dream up a way to eliminate game copying does not mean everyone should suffer for their lack of imagination.....unique serial numbers, in store extensive testing of every game the have avail., time limits.  It's not my job to come up with these things.  So I pirate....now it's their problem.

I do not justify piracy, I do not condone it.  all I can say is why I, myself do it.


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> may wanna read that again then.  I clearly say piracy is wrong.   And simply state that i wish Canada would change it's return policy.
> 
> All you're suggesting is really just a glorified piracy system.
> People will still be doing the same: getting the product for free, and then not buying it afterwards. It's still wrong. Don't try to justify it in any way at all.
> ...




That was a bad point, I'll give you that, as software DRM is much more restrictive. I just wanted to touch on all of the points of justification on piracy. But you could say that false alarms on the security systems may cause you to lose valuable time in store, but again, a sub par comparison.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> My solution is too pirate.  Just because a store cannot dream up a way to eliminate game copying does not mean everyone should suffer for their lack of imagination.....unique serial numbers, in store extensive testing of every game the have avail., time limits.  It's not my job to come up with these things.  So I pirate....now it's their problem.


You only suffer if you _choose_ to send them money. They're not forcing you to purchase their product.

It's also not _their_ job to cater to your every whim.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

BakuFunn said:
			
		

> Overman1977 said:
> 
> 
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> ...




i'm not saying I would take that time and copy it myself.  I am saying i would take that time to play the game and if not satisfied, would return it, uncopied.  No priacy from me there.  If people wanted to use that time to pirate, i'm sure they would, but I am not suggesting it for that reason.  i try to get demos and samples but most stores have a crappy selection and the demos i've played are lackluster.


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Overman1977 said:
> 
> 
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If the demos are bad, then the game is bad. You've tried the game, then don't buy it. Done, deal, finish.
Playing the full game and then returning it is wrong right there. It can be abused very easily, and will never happen. That is why they release demos for you to try out. They're never going to give you the full game to play.

Play the fucking demo.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

BakuFunn said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was actually referring to him specifically, however I don't think the lack of a return policy prevents enough sales to make up for the sales lost if such a return policy was actually implemented.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Overman1977 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I buy a product that sucks....leaving me no option but to keep it, is me suffering ( not getting my money's worth).

My every whim?...wanting the option to return a crappy product is 'my every whim'??

Ok then, i'll just go and buy whatever product I like and if it's subpar, I have only myself to blame and companies shouldn't give a shit.  People return stuff they are not happy with all the time.  All I have been saying with regard to return policies, is that i wish there were some way i could return a game cuz i'm stuck with a lot of paperweights, that are franky, too crappy to even be good paperweights.

I feel that if stores could somehow modify their return policies so that both consumer and business would be satified with it, it may limit piracy to some degree and make me a happy boy once again.  That way, i could have return all the shovelware that looked good, had some nice videos and some good ratings but fell flat with me.


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

BakuFunn said:
			
		

> Urza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*sighs*...i'm not asking to play the whole game.  what gave you that idea???  I;ve played good demos of crappy games and vice versa....


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

In that case, when I go to libraray I steal as well? Couse I didn't pay for a game?
You can make a game and uncounted copy of that, it's not physical, you should not charge for that. Game should be with booklets and some extras thing, then I would pay for it.
Beside of that, why game companies? What about movie industry and music? What about photos in internet?
Can you steal something not physical? In your text you stole 5000 letters created by someone who didn't get paid for that. Your words were not created by you - you stole it from somebody. I think we all owe a lot of money to people who made a language, signs, words and some money to God. We didn't pay for world. WE STOLE IT!!!!!!!!! GTA!
What you guys want to do is a pay toll for everything. I'm sick of that. I hate plastic wrapped books at bookstore. I can return a lemon car to a dealer, but try to return not finished game to a Wallmart or Target. Demo is a solution or a renting place. Both things are bad for game companies.
I said that already - some part of people steal music. Focus on people who still buy it instead of thinking what would be if... or how much I would earn if.....


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> Urza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No. Where do you think the library gets their games and books and movies? They buy them. They buy them so people can enjoy them for free. It's as if you bought something for someone else. It's not stealing.

Yes, if you read a book that you had to pay for, it's stealing. You're stealing the ideas because you'd normally have to pay for them. Taking them from a library is not stealing because they've already been paid for. Where do you think kind-hearted people go to discard books?

It's the company's choice to give you a demo or not. It does not justify you to take their product to "test drive" it. Don't give me that bullshit saying you have a right. You don't have the fucking right.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> Ok then, i'll just go and buy whatever product I like and if it's subpar, I have only myself to blame and companies shouldn't give a shit.  People return stuff they are not happy with all the time.  All I have been saying with regard to return policies, is that i wish there were some way i could return a game cuz i'm stuck with a lot of paperweights, that are franky, too crappy to even be good paperweights.
> The majority of all returns are either from A) product failure or malfunction and B) consumer ignorance. The former does indeed apply to video games, and if a disc fails most stores will take it back for an exchange. The latter definitely applies to someone who didn't do enough research and ended up with a game they didn't like. I see no reason the developer should suffer due to that.
> 
> QUOTEI feel that if stores could somewho modify their return policies so that both consumer and business would be satified with it, it may limit piracy to some degree and make me a happy boy once again.  That way, i could have return all the shovelware that looked good, had some nice videos and some good ratings but fell flat with me.


Sure; if they could come up with your proposed magical return policy that somehow solves everything.

It'd be nice if the game printed money too, and beat me off for a nickel.


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## Prophet (Jul 10, 2010)

Didn't a thread like this one just end recently? I see the same immature justifications too. How about we just admit that people are imperfect and piracy, though immoral, allows a high yield of pleasure for a relatively low cost. The "cost" being the slight burden of remorse our actions place upon our conscious. Unless of course you don't even feel remotely bad about being a pirate, in which case you are a douche.

I call that the "douche clause" in my arguement. Thank you and you are welcome.

Sidenote: Urza! I haven't seen you in a while. *hug/grope*


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> Didn't a thread like this one just end recently? I see the same immature justifications too. How about we just admit that people are imperfect and piracy, though immoral, allows a high yield of pleasure for a relatively low cost. The "cost" being the slight burden of remorse our actions place upon our conscious. Unless of course you don't even feel remotely bad about being a pirate, in which case you are a douche.
> 
> I call that the "douche clause" in my arguement. Thank you and you are welcome.
> 
> Sidenote: Urza! I haven't seen you in a while. *hug/grope*



Would you shoplift?


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## Overman1977 (Jul 10, 2010)

Ok, I'm gonna state this as simply as possible so that even a 4 year old would understand:

Piracy IS stealing and stealing IS wrong, therefore I am in the moral wrong when I pirate (simple logic).

I pirate for these reasons:  1. Demos not indicative of actual game play. 2. The failure of stores to offer me ANY kind of remuneration for a terrible game; once I buy a game I am stuck with it.  And btw, even a movie theater once gave me a refund after having 'finished' watching Pearl Harbour, as I thought it was such a terrible movie.

The above 'reasons' are not to be confused with 'justifications'.


The End.


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## jonesman99 (Jul 10, 2010)

Apparently it does because the romsite i used took out its .nds rom section. Whether it was by a developer or Nintendo themselves, i dont know but whatever company that did it must have been hit by piracy if that happened.

My guess is Disney Interactive, all of their games on the DS is Shovelware, and expect kids to buy it.

DAMN YOU, DISNEY!!!!


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

How many times you got to pay for the same thing?
Let's say I like "dirty Dancing", so I bought it years ago on VHS. Then there was a system change - I bought it on DVD. Now I want to see it on BlueRay, or UMD in my PSP - Pay again. Is that fair?
Do you know how much money I spent on Cassettes, Nes Cartridges or Gameboy games? 
Now they cost a fraction of what they cost before. Do game companies owe my some money for that?
So when I have some roms of the games that I bought years before - it's not piracy.
If I Bought 10 games that are bad but still costed sixty bucks, I feel free to steal one, couse games are not priced by quality.
Some games are made in years, by army of people. Some of them are using a ready engine, graphics change, and guess what - they cost the same!

You guys think that you owe a money to game companies - think about the money they owe you.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> I pirate for these reasons:  1. Demos not indicative of actual game play. 2. The failure of stores to offer me ANY kind of remuneration for a terrible game; once I buy a game I am stuck with it.
> How is a demo of actual game play not indicative of actual game play?
> 
> QUOTEThe above 'reasons' are not to be confused with 'justifications'.


I don't think you know what those two words mean.

Let me try to explain this as simply as possible so that even _you_ would understand. This calls for an amusing and hyperbolistic scenario in which I supplant you and the gist of your argument.

You: Well, in the past I have hired some bad hookers. They failed to get me off, leaving me without money or satisfaction. For this reason I felt I should drug and kidnap one the next time I was horny. If she was good, then I would pay the pimp and be on my way. Otherwise, she didn't deserve my money in the first place.

Judge: lolguilty.


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## LufianGuy (Jul 10, 2010)

Video game companies (THEY) nowadays try to screw the consumer (US) anyway they can, so THEY shouldn't be surprised when WE screw them back.

Enough said.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Gagarin said:
			
		

> How many times you got to pay for the same thing?
> Let's say I like "dirty Dancing", so I bought it years ago on VHS. Then there was a system change - I bought it on DVD. Now I want to see it on BlueRay, or UMD in my PSP - Pay again. Is that fair?
> Do you know how much money I spent on Cassettes, Nes Cartridges or Gameboy games?
> Now they cost a fraction of what they cost before. Do game companies owe my some money for that?
> ...


1. Why would the manufacturers be responsible for sending you updated media every time you purchasing a new piece of technology?

2. Why would the manufacturers be responsible for the decreased value the market places on used products?

3. How does the fact that you made poor purchasing decisions give you the right to steal software?

None of your points make any sense at all.


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

Think about it....

Becouse I paid for a movie not for a format of data!!!!!

So why the the prices are the same for games? I paid some extra for they bad products. 
I will explain it to you. Stealing is - something is gone. Taken away.
Stealing a data - is not the same like stealing a physical good. Becouse it can be reproduced billion times without a harm. Identical copy!

And you copyright nazi who put these things together (stealing physical and copying digital) seems to have a problem to understand it.

Shoplifting is bad. copying is less bad.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Gagarin said:
			
		

> Think about it....
> 
> Becouse I paid for a movie not for a format of data!!!!!


You actually paid for the movie in that specific "format of data."

I could say that when I purchased a movie, I actually bought a school bus full of hookers. That doesn't make it true.


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

Overman1977 said:
			
		

> Ok, I'm gonna state this as simply as possible so that even a 4 year old would understand:
> 
> Piracy IS stealing and stealing IS wrong, therefore I am in the moral wrong when I pirate (simple logic).
> 
> ...



Are you joking? You're not real, are you?
If you have to pay for it, you have to pay for it. It may not be fair. If a yacht is on sale for a couple of million dollars and you think that price isn't _fair_, then what? You'll steal it? Fuck all if all unfair things are free.

Nobody gives a rat's ass on how much you spent on things in the past. I bought fourteen tons of food last year, should I get those things for free again?

Prices drop. You really expect to be reimbursed for paying a higher price when supply and demand was at work? That's incredibly ignorant. Buy low, sell high. It's pretty easy. If it works for your side, why can't companies collect more money when a bottle of water is now a dollar, instead of fifty cents a couple of years ago? So, you're proposing every price change to affect the future? That's just ridiculous.

If a game is bad and you bought it, that's your lost. If you buy bad soda, then it's bad. Don't buy bad soda. You think that if you drink a lot of bad soda, you get to steal a couple? It's not fair for the company either. And games are priced on whatever the company wants it to be priced. Don't think a bad price will allow you to steal it. No. Too expensive? Don't fucking buy it.

How in hell do game companies owe us in any way? If you feel you got ripped off on a game, that's your problem. If a guy in the desert sells you snake oil, that's your problem. They don't owe you crack shit. You negotiated the price, and you both agreed on the price. If the other end of the deal was sweetened with good marketing, then great for them. If you're stupid enough to believe them, you're an idiot and deserve your money to be taken away from you.


EDIT: Spelling errors.


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

Dont compare a phyical thing like yaht and digital data. 

And stop talking about hookers.


"How in hell do game companies owe us in any way? If you feel you got ripped off on a game, that's your problem"

So now they have their problem and we are even.


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

You have to pay for both.
You can compare them fine.




Urza seems to feel as though you're more familiar with the workings of hookers, so you'll understand your stupidity easier.

I feel the same.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Gagarin said:
			
		

> So now they have their problem and we are even.


Committing felonies may become an additional problem for you at some point.


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

Well, in that case you just stole his idea. You didn't pay for it. 
Stealing is stealing.

So you think that they can not do anything according to the law without the reason?
I think that all judges and lawyers need that example with hookers so they will finally figure it out.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

Gagarin said:
			
		

> Well, in that case you just stole his idea. You didn't pay for it.
> Stealing is stealing.


Except the idea was not a product and freely available for anyone to receive and use.


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## Prophet (Jul 10, 2010)

BakuFunn said:
			
		

> Prophet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Depends. Would I shoplift a game? No. Would I shoplift food if I were hungry? Yes. To be honest, I have done so in the past.

There is however a third variable that must be accounted for. In addition to weighing potential pleasure against remorse, we must take "consequence" into account. Consequence and remorse are unpleasant affairs that people like to avoid. If the sum of consequence and remorse totals a "displeasure" greater than the enjoyment we stand to gain from an action, then we abstain from said action. In the case of piracy the probability of consequence is extremely low and although the amount of remorse varies, it is rarely much at all. Hence, the pleasure of playing that new game and saving money far outweighs the total displeasure.

Shoplifting is of course different. The consequence is perceived to be higher, due to physical theft being a crime people are regularly prosecuted for. Through social conditioning the likely hood of feeling remorse is also higher, especially if you are stealing from a small establishment with which you can personally identify. It becomes hard for us to justify shoplifting because we perceive that it is probable that we might lose more than we will gain. Of course if you are poor and hungry this becomes easier, as you already have very little to lose to begin with.

This Is how the mind of man works. At least I pray it is.


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

Gagarin said:
			
		

> Well, in that case you just stole his idea. You didn't pay for it.
> Stealing is stealing.
> 
> So you think that they can not do anything according to the law without the reason?
> ...



You, sir, are correct. You're diving into the minds of the thieves and how they tick, and you are completely correct. The thing I'm trying to establish is that most people think that piracy is not as serious as stealing something physical. It's because there's a low risk. You're behind your computer at home. Who's gonna find out? I'm trying to establish the fact that the moral toll on our minds should be just as great, while these people are taking easy theft for granted. They're justifying stealing.

All I'm saying is that piracy is theft. Shoplifting is just something people can relate to easily, and will see the impact that every game pirated costs.


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## Urza (Jul 10, 2010)

I fall into the "douche clause."


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

Nice. So this is your justification. I hear some people who can say that about roms 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I respect it.

Read the question in the thread. It does effect the industry, but it is kind of their fault that they don't secure they goods.

I wrote my opinions, not that I truly belive in them. I wanted a nice conversation about it, but you downgrade it to an insult.

I apologize for being wrong. I think that there is a door in hell with my name on it.




Committing felonies.... nice I hope that you are bad at fortune telling.


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## Prophet (Jul 10, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> I fall into the "douche clause."



I know. But the fact that you _know_, is why I love you.


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> BakuFunn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for that. The whole discussion make a lot more sense now.


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## LufianGuy (Jul 10, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> BakuFunn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, I never expected anyone to bring Cesare Beccaria's pain vs pleasure principle into this thread, mad props to Prophet (I'm assuming you are a criminal justice major or at least took one college class in that field).


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## BakuFunn (Jul 10, 2010)

We're here because we all steal.
Please don't justify it into not stealing.



I just don't give a fuck that I know I steal.


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

What punishment would you give yourself, as a judge


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jul 10, 2010)

Jolan said:
			
		

> JetKun said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Simple, they make money selling hardware. They make money off the privilege of having their name on the games people make FOR the Nintendo company's hardware.

What I want to know, is how are the people that make the fucking crap games doing it?
I mean, the games are so obviously crap so often. Yet no one is having any trouble making crap games year after year after year. I have seen crap Nintendo DS games arrive yearly in bucket loads since at least 2006.

There has to be some secrets we are not being told eh. If the super ease with which a DS title can be downloaded was genuinely harmful, I'd have thought they would have stopped being able to convince to make games for it long ago.


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## Dter ic (Jul 10, 2010)

because of piracy Nintendo decide to sell special editions of consoles

oh yeah?
whoever said "Nintendo should secure there games, FYI
THEY DID, its just that the fact that because of flashcart groups and smart people of the net, we've been able to crack their AP


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## VmprHntrD (Jul 10, 2010)

amen to your post #51 BakuFunn, I'd quote it but it's huge.  I agree mostly with you as someone who used to be in the field of making games for a couple years.  You're right, but and it's no justification, as I was a thief too (gave it up), the stores and in a way game companies brought it on themselves too.  Stores and game companies colluded to no longer allow returns on new games if you felt they were shit.  in the USA(for our Int'l readers) EB Games and the now Gamestop(then Software etc) allowed returns for up to 1 week if it sucked for store credit.  Game companies didn't like it, the retailer didn't care as much but it was a bummer having to reseal or send back the stuff for resealing, so eventually game companies banned returns forcing stores to stop it.  So they worked together to give people less options, and adding insult to it were advertisements made out as preview/reviews(still done far worse today now) and a nearly entire lack of game demos, and most that were made didn't represent the game right selling on a lie.

Combining fake demo quality with the banning of the return option on anything but used games caused a lot of piracy reasons to expand other than your usual band of cheap assholes who refuse to pay for a damn thing whether they can afford it or not.  It opened the door to people who have lost 100s or 1000s of dollars on dogshit on a chip or disc, pissed off with nowhere to turn but other than to steal to test, then buy or deny.  I personally still will do this with handheld games on occasion if I'm uncertain as GBA and DS games are small and the emulators are powerful, and for dead systems (SNES) and so on I'll do it before buying from the resale market (shops, swapmeet, etc.)  Some people are just pissed they had their choices taken away turning the gaming market (and movies/audio too) into a unique niche of fuck you to the face purchasing based entirely on a gamble.  Sure you don't like those pants you bought, sure here's your money back.  What, Halo sucks to you?  Drop dead we don't take returns...ARGH!  It's not right.

See now I'm not justifying what I or others do, but I am pointing out the system was there over 10years ago and was taken away by greedy assholes looking to shaft the consumer.  Media is a distinct market where nothing is in your favor unless you borrow, rent, or steal it first to see if it fits your needs because once you pay you're stuck with it.  My turnabout on most of it these days now as I said I rarely do it anymore and limited to retro stuff and DS(very rare) is I buy used because I can return the turds.  As a perk it gives the finger to the game companies who put out so much shit they've burned my trust in them to the ground.


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## DigitalDeviant (Jul 10, 2010)

I think so, now to what extent I don't know. Piracy will always be here though, arrrgh, lol.


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## ImpulsE69 (Jul 10, 2010)

Vampire Hunter D hit the nail on the head, whats more, you are stuck with it AND you don't even own rights to do with it as you want.

We all know piracy can hurt companies (Dreamcast maybe? some more than others). We also know it can help companies (PS2 and DS anyone?)

But when game companies are posting record profits off 1 game making more than the highest grossing movie ever, you know damn well piracy isn't as bad as they make it out to be. If a person thinks something is good and finds the value worth the price, people generally will shell out the money, even if they can/have pirated it beforehand. There are exceptions to every rule of course, but that number is smaller than they try to pass off.

They tend to have that attitude of we should have sold X number of copies of this, and we only sold Y. Then they say X-Y=Z ppl didn't buy it, so they must have pirated it.


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## Gagarin (Jul 10, 2010)

Great conversation, now let's play that Dragon Quest


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## CrimzonEyed (Jul 10, 2010)

im pirate cuz of retarded sweden. Metroid prime other M will on realse cost 82,84$ (650sek) at our gamestop stores.
Sweden have extra high taxes on video games... and they are thinking on rise it from 82,84 for a new game up to 127,44$ for new games. FOR ALL CONSOLES GAMES!

EDIT: There will always be piracy since there will always exist some awsome but poor hackers that can't afford all new good games that they want to play


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## Wabsta (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm a student, so I simply can't afford to buy games.
But, when a real good game releases, I tend to buy it to support them.
I bought all monkey island games on steam, even tho I can just pirate them.
I also tend to buy games when it has some extra stuff in it.
For example, I bought Guitar Hero DS when it came out.

And ofcourse, if steam has some sales, I buy the good games.
Because, yea, I think it hurts the gaming industry.


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## Urza (Jul 12, 2010)

Vampire Hunter D said:
			
		

> Combining fake demo quality with the banning of the return option on anything but used games caused a lot of piracy reasons to expand other than your usual band of cheap assholes who refuse to pay for a damn thing whether they can afford it or not.  It opened the door to people who have lost 100s or 1000s of dollars on dogshit on a chip or disc, pissed off with nowhere to turn but other than to steal to test, then buy or deny.


The amount of people who were stupid enough to buy those awful games, but also managed to muster enough intellect to pirate games is incredibly small I'm sure. In fact, I would wager that douche-y policies have not had any sort of relevant effect on piracy.

You underestimate how dumb pretty much their entire user base is.


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## SamusKnight2K (Jul 12, 2010)

There's alot of people out there that rag on people who pirate games but I wonder what they'd do face to face... If you were strongly opposed to piracy and you met someone in person who was pirating, what would you do? It's easy to talk big on an internet forum and rant about someone "stealing" a game, but what about in person...?

Oh and while I really don't condone piracy I don't really care about it either. I can and do pirate many DS games but if I like them I tend to buy them. I actually play my legit cartridges more than my flashcart. If I see someone pirating a game I won't bother with it. To each their own.


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## Terminator02 (Jul 12, 2010)

jonesman99 said:
			
		

> Apparently it does because the romsite i used took out its .nds rom section. Whether it was by a developer or Nintendo themselves, i dont know but whatever company that did it must have been hit by piracy if that happened.
> 
> My guess is Disney Interactive, all of their games on the DS is Shovelware, and expect kids to buy it.
> 
> DAMN YOU, DISNEY!!!!


This is an old post, but it's actually the ESA, not just one publisher.

This thread got kinda off-topic with ethics and stealing etc.

As said before, yes it hurts, but not as much as those crazy estimates.


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jul 14, 2010)

It's looking like the PS3 might have won the fight. The hacker has quit.

Why do I download Nintendo DS games? simple, they suck large 9 times out of 10. At 40 bucks a go, I'd rather download it first thank you. I'm not paying 40 bucks a game with a 90% chance of being crap.

Now in the case of the PS3, no loss. I have yet to find a single PS3 game I want. So it not being cracked is not even relevant.


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