# Did they kill Kingdom Hearts with making too many new games?



## Jakob95 (Dec 6, 2010)

I remember a long time ago when I first played Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2 they were amazing.  Especially Kingdom Hearts 2.  The game had everything in it gameplay, amazing story, graphics, and when I played the games I enjoyed it.   With Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days I played the whole game all the missions but I just felt that the game had good gameplay, nice graphics, and that was about it the story line was pretty bullshit and useless.  With Kingdom hearts Chain of Memory I played it on the GBA and I did beat the whole game but I just beat it for only one reason and that reason was for just completing the game, the story line in that game was also really bad as in the end he didn't remember anything anyways of what he was doing during that time.  Then goes Birth By Sleep.  Birth By Sleep was a fun game but in my opinion it was too repetitive.  It was a good game but not as good as Kingdom hearts 2.

I remember when I played Kingdom Hearts 2 I loved it so much that I was obsessed with it for like 2 years.  Now after Birth By Sleep I don't really care anymore and don't care at all almost for Kingdom hearts Coded.  



Square Enix make a real Kingdom hearts game already with Sora. I want a new game that is after Kingdom Hearts 2 not BEFORE.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 6, 2010)

They killed it with KH2. Adding too many characters way too fast that they had to make newer games so the player can understand who they are.

Simple yet amazing story in the first game, and now that's gone out the window. It was a serious like story, but still cartoonish, but now they just did too much with it.

They shouldn't have made KH2 the way it was. They should have kept it simple, but yet stretch the series out to explain the organization at a steady pace instead of:

"KH1 was about Ansem... BAM here's KH2 with over 15 new characters! OH WAIT! HERE'S 358 WITH ANOTHER NEW CHARACTER! HERE'S BBS WITH 6 NEW CHARACTERS!"

They did too much, too fast, and fucked up a simple story. That's the reason why I haven't been a fan of the series since KH2. And even then, I only played that just for the gameplay, the story lost me.


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## Urza (Dec 6, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> They killed it with KH2.


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## Xale (Dec 6, 2010)

The only game i didnt really like was 358/2 days, i didnt really care for the missions, and the story wasnt that great, other than that i love all the games, even chain of memories even though people bash it, its one of my favorites but my favorite is birth by sleep, i do agree that they need to move forward with the story and stop going back though, which is what they are doing with recoded


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## Omega_2 (Dec 6, 2010)

Short answer: Yes.


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## Goli (Dec 6, 2010)

Jakob95 said:
			
		

> I remember a long time ago when I first played Kingdom Hearts and Kingdom Hearts 2 they were amazing.  Especially Kingdom Hearts 2.  The game had everything in it gameplay, amazing story, graphics, and when I played the games I enjoyed it.   With Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days I played the whole game all the missions but I just felt that the game had good gameplay, nice graphics, and that was about it the story line was pretty bullshit and useless.  With Kingdom hearts Chain of Memory I played it on the GBA and I did beat the whole game but I just beat it for only one reason and that reason was for just completing the game, the story line in that game was also really bad as in the end he didn't remember anything anyways of what he was doing during that time.  Then goes Birth By Sleep.  Birth By Sleep was a fun game but in my opinion it was too repetitive.  It was a good game but not as good as Kingdom hearts 2.
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> I remember when I played Kingdom Hearts 2 I loved it so much that I was obsessed with it for like 2 years.  Now after Birth By Sleep I don't really care anymore and don't care at all almost for Kingdom hearts Coded.
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Pointless post is pointless!


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## Urza (Dec 6, 2010)

Goli said:
			
		

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Fix'd.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 6, 2010)

I love every last bit of how KH is unfolding.

It's the confusion that ShadowSoldier is complaining about that pulls me in.

The confusion causes you to replay games and try to figure out exactly where you are, why you are, etc.

Chain of Memories set-up the connection between the first and 2nd games. Sure, Sora doesn't remember any of it, but in KH2 Namine's importance is established.

358/2 Days was important because everyone was gonna complain about Roxas's backstory without it, plus it gives an inside look at how the Organization works.

Birth by Sleep I can't comment much on since I've only just picked it up and finished 2 storylines, but it shows Xehanort's true motives(which also means KH1's "Ansem" and Xemnas's motives).


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## Raiser (Dec 7, 2010)

I believe KH is still going strong.

All the confusion with Roxas, the Nobodies, the Shadow Soldier guy, everything is just making me want more.

In short: yeah, they might be overdoing it on the spin-offs but I believe the main story is going along just fine.


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## Sephxus (Dec 7, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> They killed it with KH2. Adding too many characters way too fast that they had to make newer games so the player can understand who they are.
> 
> Simple yet amazing story in the first game, and now that's gone out the window. It was a serious like story, but still cartoonish, but now they just did too much with it.
> 
> ...


I agree they complicated the story more than they should have, which can get ridiculous and might just be seen as _dumb, _specially in a fantasy game.  However, I can't wait for KH3.  Maybe someday.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

I don't mind confusion in a game series or something, something that you have to think back and figure it all out.

But I would have preferred it if they did it gradually y'know? Like, KH2 just pushed all out at once which ruined what KH1 set up.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 7, 2010)

Square kills a game series by making too many games in that series.

HOW DID I NOT SEE THAT COMING.


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## Slyakin (Dec 7, 2010)

Never liked the series. 


Meh.


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## granville (Dec 7, 2010)

I've enjoyed almost all the games in terms of gameplay, but the issue is that there's usually way too much filler. ReCoded is actually pretty useless in terms of story except for the secret ending.

There's a good chance the 3DS game will be somewhat decent though. BBS was really fun for me, and the same team is making 3D. There are going to be a bunch of new worlds according to the developers. I'm not saying it WILL be good, but i hope it will.

The best games are BBS, KH1, and KH2. I'd probably put them in that order in terms of what i like too. And all have issues. KH1 had one of the WORST camera systems and controls i've had in a competent game. It made the game extremely frustrating. KH2 fixed these issues, but was generally way too easy and discarded almost all hint of platforming and exploration the first game had. BBS was far better in terms of not bombarding you with useless filler (most of the worlds you visit have some relevance to the plot or future plots).

Although i enjoyed KH2, it felt to me like it was unfinished. And it kind of was. The Final Mix for that one makes it worth importing. They added a new critical difficulty (which makes the game actually difficult). A Bunch of new bosses and content (Roxas boss was probably the funnest, and possibly hardest in the game). It's the only FM in the series i'd consider getting over the US version due to the sheer amount of new content.

It's funny, KH1 had what i'd say was the best mix of different gameplay genres. Not only was it a difficult action RPG, but it had platforming and exploration. The issue was that the camera and controls made the game a chore to play. By KH2, they fixed the camera and control problems, yet scrapped almost any hint of platforming or exploration. What a waste. ReCoded is bringing platforming back at least.


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## DeMoN (Dec 7, 2010)

I've only played Chain of Memories and 358/2 Days and I loved them both, so no.


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## DarkShinigami (Dec 7, 2010)

i like the story of them all but thats just me


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## Jakob95 (Dec 7, 2010)

Goli said:
			
		

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Its going to be after Kingdom Hearts 2?  Like after when Sora gets his letters?  Does that mean its the Kingdom Hearts 3?

EDIT:  I actually liked KH2.  It was by far the easiest one and I liked it that way.  I hated those exploration stuff in KH1 because it always made the game boring for me find out what I should do and stuff.  I like action games that are straight forward like this KH2 and God of War.


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## KingAsix (Dec 7, 2010)

As long as they finish up the Kingdom Heart story it is fine...No story is great without some mystery...That's one of the reason Golden Sun is great as well. 

The gameplay of Kingdom Heart is unique and I've always loved that.

Kingdom Heart in a general aspect is just a bit of uniqueness...And most games nowadays lack that.


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## Mesiskope (Dec 7, 2010)

gameplay: good.
story: balls.


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## soliunasm (Dec 7, 2010)

It's not the games, it's the story.
Especially when there's so much darkness it's a wonder how people can see.


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## gamefreak94 (Dec 7, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> They killed it with KH2. Adding too many characters way too fast that they had to make newer games so the player can understand who they are.
> 
> Simple yet amazing story in the first game, and now that's gone out the window. It was a serious like story, but still cartoonish, but now they just did too much with it.
> 
> ...


Someone didn't play KH Chain of Memories....
You actually didn't really need to play 358 unless you wanted to know more about the organization and Roxas.
BBS explains the start of KH and also shows background on the Organization when they where human and why keyblade bearers are so rare nowadays.
Anyways KH is about what the title states, KINGDOM HEARTS! If you remember correctly all games had something to do with Kingdom Hearts, it wasn't just Sora going around fighting the heartless and the the nobodies.


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## granville (Dec 7, 2010)

@Jakob95

Kingdom Hearts 3D takes place after KH2 and Coded. It is the newest game in the timeline. You were probably thrown off by the screens shown, which have young Sora and Riku for some reason. It was stated by the creator that there is a reason for their bodies appearing younger. It is NOT KH3, but it is intended to connect to that game. The issue with KH3 is that Versus 13 is holding it back from being made.

If you don't mind spoilers from the ending of ReCoded (WHICH IS NOT OUT YET) as well as some from BBS, it explains what is believed to be the plot of KH3D. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK AND DON'T BLAME ME FOR SPOILING-



Spoiler



In ReCoded's secret ending (added since the original Coded), it is revealed that Master Xehanort will be returning again in some form. When a heartless and a nobody are destroyed, the heart and body can potentially meet and reform once again to bring back the original self. The issue is that we don't know what form Xehanort will reform in, whether in his original old form, or his younger apprentice form. Or even what he will remember, his apprentice form lost all prior memories of his life as a keyblade master. It is also revealed that "he is not alone", meaning that there may be another new (or old) character helping him out. It is a common theory among the KH fanbase that it may be Braig.

To combat this new threat, Master Yen Sid instructs his pupil Mickey to gather Sora and Riku and bring him to his tower. He will hold a Mark of Mastery exam to attempt to make Sora and Riku keyblade masters (which apparently will bestow them new powers and knowledge, despite the fact that they are very powerful already).

In addition to this, we know the theme of the game will be "trust". Likely something to do with Sora and Riku's relationship. We also know that you will be able to play as both of them, and thus far, the developers seem to be trying to make a system where you will be given alternating control over each character at specific times (instead of BBS's character selection or COM's unlockable Reverse Rebirth). We also know there will be all new worlds (worlds being plural, meaning several new ones).

A theory as to why Sora and Riku are in their younger forms is up for speculation. Some believe it will be some sort of dream of inner consciousness. I even heard one interesting theory on how Yen Sid might pull them into a mirror world or something. Some people also noted from the trailer (that was not shown to the public) that many Soras are shown falling from the sky. It's speculated that this test will present Sora with some difficulty. It may have tests of darkness. Sora may end up failing parts of the exam (hence the "falling Sora") and Riku might end up passing it. This could also be in tune with the "trust" theme. Sora might even begin to get jealous of Riku (which is ironic because Riku was previously jealous of Sora, hence their past clashes).

Oh and then you have the new character added to the English BBS- Mysterious Figure. He's the new secret boss, and hard as hell. Dressed in an organization cloak, he backwards wields two blue lightsaber-like blades (not unlike Xemnas). He also drops a clock-based keyblade, meaning there may be some sort of time travel involved in the series' future. He shares attacks from many different characters, including most of the organization, one of Ven's command styles, and Vanitas and Master Xehanort. He could be anybody, and a huge mystery. Unknown what game he will reappear in, whether it's 3DS or what. But he WILL be in a future game.

Of course, this is all speculation in regards to the story. But fans have been known to get things right before games have come out (they predicted parts of Vanitas' identity when we first heard his voice, and people were sure of Terra's fate from the first time they saw the gathering secret ending in KH2FM). Take everything with a grain of salt though.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

gamefreak94 said:
			
		

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Yeah I did. But what I'm saying is they could have added that as a PS2 game and title it Kingdom Hearts 2, and make it a big story like game like the first game. And make Kingdom Hearts 2 and Kingdom Hearts 3.


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## gamefreak94 (Dec 7, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

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Huh? So what your saying is that Chain of Memories should be KH2 and KH2 should be KH3?
Then where the hell does KH 358 and BBS go?

Edit: And they did make Chain of Memories for the ps2. Its called RE:Chain of Memories....


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

NO! Fuck sakes, you know what never mind. It's going to be damn near impossible trying to talk to KH fans.


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## granville (Dec 7, 2010)

The issue with Chain of Memories is that it's not a very fun game. There's plenty of filler in the series, but COM has some of the worst. At the same time though, it was necessary to the story. Shame they couldn't make the disney memory worlds more interesting and relevant to the story.

@ShadowSoldier

I am afraid that you're making very little sense though. And attacking people over your lack of sense is not a very mature thing to do. Don't get angry at other people just because you're having trouble forming words from what you think. It certainly does look like you're trying to say Chain of Memories should be a main numbered game in the series. The problem is that it was a game that is supposed to link two games together. It doesn't have that certain level of design that makes it a main game in the series.

Thus far, there are only three KH games that are considered numbered titles- KH1, KH2, and BBS. BBS is cited as being "Kingdom Hearts 0" per say. It's a prequel, and explains a LOT about things that led into the main series. It probably has the least amount of useless fluff of any game in the series as well.

I wouldn't have been above looking up cutscenes of Chain of Memories just to understand the story, it has a lot of plot relevance but i really didn't think the game was too fun due to the useless filler worlds. I did play and beat Days though. I actually enjoyed the slow pace of the story and dark nature things took. It wasn't a happy game, it was a game about very cruel and (literally) heartless people who wish to cause destruction to get to their goals of becoming whole. I understand many people won't enjoy it, but i did.

Of course, i do happen to be a fan. I won't overlook the flaws in the series, but i do understand the story. Not much that confuses me about it. And the amount of characters has never bothered me. It's just a shame the worlds you visit can't be more populated. If anything, there's a LACK of characters, but the NPC kind. I wish they could have put more people just randomly walking around the worlds. Having only 2 people or so in a single world makes it feel deserted and desolate. Twilight Town was the most populated world i can think of, and it felt better due to that.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

I am saying it should be a numbered game. It should be a main game. It should be KH2, except as a much bigger adventure and not just a memories thing. And KH2 should be KH3.

Man, I apologize, I totally fucked up before. But hopefully this will clear it up, THIS is what I think should be.

Kingdom Hearts 1 => Kingdom Hearts 1.
Chain of Memories => Kingdom Hearts 2.
Kingdom Hearts 2 => Kingdom Hearts 3.

Because that way, it would have gradually introduced all the new characters, instead of people who just went from 1 to 2 and got bombarded with the new characters.


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## Jakob95 (Dec 7, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> I am saying it should be a numbered game. It should be a main game. It should be KH2, except as a much bigger adventure and not just a memories thing. And KH2 should be KH3.
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> Man, I apologize, I totally fucked up before. But hopefully this will clear it up, THIS is what I think should be.
> 
> ...


With your logic it should be.
Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep => Kingdom Hearts 1.
Kingdom Hearts 1 => Kingdom Hearts 2
Kingdom Hearts Chain of memory => Kingdom Hearts 3
Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days => Kingdom hearts 4
Kingdom Hearts 2 => Kingdom Hearts 5
Kingdom Hearts Coded => Kingdom Hearts 6


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## granville (Dec 7, 2010)

In that case, i'm inclined to agree with ShadowSoldier. Chain of Memories could have been so much better, and had it been, would have made a fine numbered game. I don't think i feel so great about the combat in general though. The only card-based game i tolerate in general is actually Megaman Battle Network series (funny huh?)

The deck system in BBS has the most refined combat IMO, Chain of Memories would have been quite fun with it. And i agree on your big adventure thing. The memory worlds just felt so bland. I actually disliked the room customizations. I'd have preferred they kept the card element out of the gameplay and left it to the story progression (or find a better way to deal with it, like charms for unlocking memories). I found the story in the main cutscenes rather intriguing.

Take a chill pill Jakob, no need to be a smartass. The series could have done with trimming some of the fat from many of those games. 358/2 Days i'd probably add some more excitement and interesting bits too. I found it fun, but i can see it's a bit too slow paced for its own good. Nice multiplayer though. It would have been neat to have some mission in hollow bastion where you are helping to build parts of the cavern of remembrance. The Deep Dive scene was underwhelming, needed a better final battle.

Coded was mostly useless. Gameplay in ReCoded is at least quite fun, but the story is 90% filler. They could have solved the entire plot with a simple message (which they did actually, that's the note Sora receives in KH2). As it is, ReCoded at least has fun gameplay. But the story is rather useless.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

Jakob95 said:
			
		

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...No?

358 and Coded are just side stories. They're not crucial to the story, but yet CoM is.

It should have been a full fledge game like KH1 instead of it just being "go through all these levels again and get cards" and whatever. Because of the way it was, it felt like it was a Side Story. It should have been on the same caliber as 1 and 2. But it wasn't. The rest are fine as they are. And yes, I know BbS is crucial to the story.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 7, 2010)

Jakob95 said:
			
		

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Uhh no. If Devil May Cry can have higher-numbered prequels, so can Kingdom Hearts.

What he was getting at is the act of having a number. Every game (aside from BBS) that's more of a side story than a main game was unnumbered. The other games are semi-optional. "Semi" because you really are better off playing them and getting the story. CoM's story isn't optional, but the gameplay makes the whole game optional.

Offtopic: Chain of Memories was worse on the PS2 than GBA.


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## gamefreak94 (Dec 7, 2010)

I am hoping that you guys notice the pattern of the games right...
KH= Sony
CoM= Nintendo
KH2=Sony
358=Nintendo
BBS=Sony
KH3D=Nintendo
RE: games do not count. As you can see, the two main branches that got Square(Or should i say FF) started are taking turns on this series. And it seems only Square didn't feel like making CoM for the GCN.


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## tatripp (Dec 7, 2010)

The original Kingdom hearts was supposed to be a fun game with final fantasy and disney characters together. The main focus was on game play rather than story. Just like when square enix  made super mario rpg (that game was fun and pretty much nothing from that story including characters have never been in another mario game since). Kingdom hearts 2 went off the deep end. If you just picked up the game and started playing from kindom hearts 2 you would be completely lost. They added a whole bunch of stuff which took away from the cute/fun aspect and made it more like a final fantasy game. The only way to understand the story was to play the gba game which was very stupid and it's story didn't make sense. Every game after the gba one and kh2 are only trying to fix the broken storyline. Every game solves a few mysteries but creates hundreds more. They know there is no hope for the story so they decide to drag it on as long as possible and make it as complex as possible.

In KH1 you fight ansem. in kh2 you realize that it wasn't really ansem, but his heartless (even though he looks different than any other heartless). Then you find out that there is some crazy organization which is run by nobodies (who weren't even introduced in the first one). The big cheese is xeonort who is ansem's heartless. Then you find out that ansem isn't really ansem, he is ansem's assistant or something.

In kh1 sora had to have some crazy gummi ship to travel to worlds. In bbs the keyblades just turn into space ships, hoverboards, or hoverschooters. Their keyblade also gives them armor apparently. Also there are thousands or millions of keyblades in some desert somewhere. 

Oh and what was up with keybaldes in the first place. The keyblade chose sora. Then riku took it. then riku eventually gets his own (idk why). Then mickey mouse also has a keyblade. Why the heck does kairi have a keyblade too like in kh2?

also axel who is a nobody and thus doesn't have a heart, sacrifices himself to save sora which is not possible because he doesn't have a heart.

I love the games but the story is dog crap. It is even more confusing that tales of symphonia 2 which had one of the worst and confusing stories imaginable.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 7, 2010)

gamefreak94 said:
			
		

> I am hoping that you guys notice the pattern of the games right...
> KH= Sony
> CoM= Nintendo
> KH2=Sony
> ...



I hope KH follows FF's pattern in that future Sony games become "Sony/MS" games. I really don't want to buy a PS3 JUST for Kingdom Hearts but I will if I have to. :| I already bought a PSP for BBS.


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## Sylar1 (Dec 7, 2010)

Can anyone explain why one of the main characters in BBS literally looks just like roxas, but with a different name, i assume he is an anscestor or something, but it's like they just took a main guy and just changed his name.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 7, 2010)

Sylar1 said:
			
		

> Can anyone explain why one of the main characters in BBS literally looks just like roxas, but with a different name, i assume he is an anscestor or something, but it's like they just took a main guy and just changed his name.


There's another doppelganger of a main character in BBS later in the story. Once you see him, you'll realize it can't be a coincidence or just re-use. (Plus, as also seen in the game, it's impossible to be ancestry since Sora is alive at the time of BBS.) I haven't played the final episode yet so I couldn't give you an explanation as to why. (if one is even given)


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## Sylar1 (Dec 7, 2010)

TehSkull said:
			
		

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Ah, so are just they cloning sora/roxas or some crap? And here i thought they could make a KH game without Sora/Roxas, then BBS came out


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## jackdanielchan (Dec 7, 2010)

Adding the Organization in my opinion benefited the games and also had negative effects as well, but the negatives completely outweigh the positives... In the end, all are killed off anyway apart from Roxas (Namine doesn't count), but because now the prequel BBS, relied upon parts of this it had to become an intricate plot device... This also gave a reason to have a sequel after KH 2, which runs off these fillers and kind of ruins it...


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

Ventus, the blonde kid in Birth by Sleep, was fighting. He was fighting his dark side who was using the Ki-Blade, and Ventus couldn't destroy his dark side. So Ventus decided to destroy the Ki-Blade. Which put them two together or something, it's been a while since I played. But anyways, Ventus didn't die, he was put into a coma like state, and he sent his spirit if you want to call it that, to Sora. And he said "Can I stay with you for a while".

That's why the Keyblade chose Sora because of Ventus was inside his heart. And after Sora became a heartless, instead of the heartless looking like Sora, it looked like Ventus because of Ventus being in Sora's heart.

At least that's what I got out of it.

But... where Ventus' body even is now, no idea.


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## Xale (Dec 7, 2010)

Ventus' body is somewhere inside Castle Oblivion, but since Sora sealed the keyhole to that world, ive no clue what happened to it. Maybe it turned back into the Land of Departure, who knows?


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## Sylar1 (Dec 7, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Ventus, the blonde kid in Birth by Sleep, was fighting. He was fighting his dark side who was using the Ki-Blade, and Ventus couldn't destroy his dark side. So Ventus decided to destroy the Ki-Blade. Which put them two together or something, it's been a while since I played. But anyways, Ventus didn't die, he was put into a coma like state, and he sent his spirit if you want to call it that, to Sora. And he said "Can I stay with you for a while".
> 
> That's why the Keyblade chose Sora because of Ventus was inside his heart. And after Sora became a heartless, instead of the heartless looking like Sora, it looked like Ventus because of Ventus being in Sora's heart.
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Ok what the flying hell. Seriously Squeenix, SERIOUSLY?


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## jackdanielchan (Dec 7, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Ventus, the blonde kid in Birth by Sleep, was fighting. He was fighting his dark side who was using the Ki-Blade, and Ventus couldn't destroy his dark side. So Ventus decided to destroy the Ki-Blade. Which put them two together or something, it's been a while since I played. But anyways, Ventus didn't die, he was put into a coma like state, and he sent his spirit if you want to call it that, to Sora. And he said "Can I stay with you for a while".
> 
> That's why the Keyblade chose Sora because of Ventus was inside his heart. And after Sora became a heartless, instead of the heartless looking like Sora, it looked like Ventus because of Ventus being in Sora's heart.
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Ventus used to work under Master Xehanort, the many antagonist of the series, after not being able to complete an assigned task, Xehanort removed the darkness from him, this became Vanitas, leaving Ventus pretty much pure light... Anyway by the end of the BBS fiasco his heart finds its way to Sora's after being scraped up pretty badly... So Sora the main protagonist of the series has Ventus's heart with him, this somehow leads his Nobody to look like Ventus... Nobody's are the shell that is created after a being loses its heart, Nobody's have no hearts and no emotions...


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## jackdanielchan (Dec 7, 2010)

Xale said:
			
		

> Ventus' body is somewhere inside Castle Oblivion, but since Sora sealed the keyhole to that world, ive no clue what happened to it. Maybe it turned back into the Land of Departure, who knows?


It's in there still, it just needs to be found and re-opened I believe...

I think people are finding the story bad because it may be complicated, and sometimes people just miss out on things...


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## Sylar1 (Dec 7, 2010)

jackdanielchan said:
			
		

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THat's just complicatingly stupid. Sora goes from just being one of few legendary keyblade weilders, to being one because he sucked in the evil heart of some guy who got made pure from the main bad guy or some crap, it's stupid.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

No no, the good heart of Ventus is in Sora. I can't remember what happened to Vanitas, but I'm going to spoil everything, but the game has been out for a few months, so eh, Vantias, the darkness ripped from Ventus, looks like Sora.

Now that needs an explanation.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 7, 2010)

Sylar1 said:
			
		

> THat's just complicatingly stupid. Sora goes from just being one of few legendary keyblade weilders, to being one because he sucked in the evil heart of some guy who got made pure from the main bad guy or some crap, it's stupid.


Quit your complaining and play the game, dammit. Our summaries do no justice to the storytelling.


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## granville (Dec 7, 2010)

Kind of a flawed explanation of what happened to Ven and why he looks like Roxas. It's unfortunate that a lot of details are hidden from players until future games. The only way to find these details sooner is by reading the "ultimania interviews" from Nomura which are published after every KH game comes out. Real explanation below (HUGE SPOILERS FOR BBS's ENDING AND SUCH, LONG POST AHEAD)-



Spoiler



Ventus is an original character, he is his own person and wasn't cloned from anyone. Full home grown person. Master Xehanort was trying to train him in order to draw the darkness out of his heart. His original intention is to use Ven's body as a new vessel (this is what he ends up doing to Terra). But Ven proved to be too weak, his darkness wasn't strong enough. So Master Xehanort forces the darkness out of Ven's heart, thereby creating Vanitas (an embodiment of pure evil and darkness).

Ven is rendered comatose from this though, his heart was ripped apart and he was too weak to function without it intact. Master Xehanort took Ven's body back to Destiny Islands (where MX grew up btw, yoink). As Ven lay dying, a newly born heart manages to make contact with Ven's heart and offers to connect to it in order to repair it. That heart ends up being Sora's as we discover at the end. As hearts connect in the series, they tend to leave an imprint of sorts to those they connect to, the most obvious being characters sharing similar physical traits. As a result of Ven and Sora's hearts connecting, Vanitas ends up taking on the appearance of Sora with only slight differences. Their connection may also explain why Sora ends up looking somewhat like Ven/Roxas later in his life.

Fast forward to the ending of Ven's story. He clashes with Vanitas. When opposing forces of pure light (Ven) and pure darkness (Vanitas) clash, they can then merge and create a might weapon called the X blade. Vanitas takes control of Ven and uses the X blade to try and kill Aqua. Ven's heart keeps fighting with Vanitas though. The issue with this is that if he destroys the x blade, he destroys part of his heart (it was created from his and Vanitas' heart), which will once again render him comatose. He does so anyways though knowingly, in order to save his friends. Vanitas is defeated and merges back into Ven's heart and Ven enters a deep sleep.

In his sleep Ven's heart recalls the contact he made years ago with the newborn Sora's heart. They manage to meet again as they did before. Ven asks Sora if his heart can remain with him for the time being, until he can heal properly. Sora agrees.

Ven's sleeping body in the meantime, was taken by Aqua to their old home. Her master being dead and needing a place to keep Ven safe from people who would harm him, transforms their home into what is now Castle Oblivion. She places him in a room only she can find and open. He's still in that room, sleeping on a throne. With time, Ven's heart will heal, at which time someone will need to bring his heart back to his body and he can awaken.

It should be noted that the whole reason that organization 13 occupied Castle Oblivion in COM was because of Xemnas' orders that they are to look for the "Room of Awakening", the place where Ven is sleeping. Why he wants to find Ven is unknown. But knowing his experiments in Days, he likely wishes to use Ven's body to create keyblade soldiers to do his bidding...

Ok, as for Roxas. Ven's heart has been sleeping inside Sora for 10 years. Yet near the end of KH1, Kairi's heart has also taken refuge inside Sora. Sora stabs himself in the chest with a keyblade in order to release Kairi and return her heart to her body. He ends up releasing his heart too however. The result ends up creating a heartless (which you've seen, doesn't last long before Kairi restores Sora's heart). However, when a heartless is made, a nobody is also made from the discarded body. Roxas is the result. 

Roxas is unique for many reasons, one being his odd appearance. Most nobodies are almost 100% identical to their original selves (meaning he should look like Sora since it is Sora's body). Roxas looks totally different from Sora though. He also has the unique ability to wield a keyblade, which is said to require a heart to do. And even furthering this, he feels emotions, which is something that normal nobodies cannot feel since they lack a heart. Inside his body, Roxas has Ven's heart. But due to the fact that the heart is still dormant, none of Ven's memories are available to Roxas. Only traces of Ven are there, like appearance. It was even explained that the keyblade Roxas was using throughout most his life was Sora's. Their connection made this possible. The one used by Sora in COM was a replica, constructed of memories. Sora lost his original when he entered the castle, which was actually when Roxas first started using it.

His ability to wield two keyblades is also explained. The general rule is one keyblade per worthy heart. He eventually manages to tap into the power of both Sora and Ven's hearts through a very painful emotional event (Xion). Due to this event, it partially awakens Ven's heart and Roxas' willpower manages to call Ven's keyblade to him. When Roxas merges back with Sora, Sora also obtains the ability to wield two keyblade in the form of drives, which let him temporarily awaken Ven's heart to gain more power.

In terms of character, Roxas a mix of both Sora and Ven with a personality of his own. He has Sora's body, Ven's heart (along with his connection to Sora), and his own memories.



It's a mystery to me why i am able to understand the series. It's rewarding when you can. And in all honestly, it flows better in the game than the way i explain it. Person above is 100% right, our way of explaining it does no justice, no matter how accurate it is. There is one thing that should be simple enough to understand- the way hearts connect and work in general has an effect on the person's appearance. Makes some sense too, it's a cool visual representation on how a character takes on physical traits when they have a part of someone else inside them.


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## Sylar1 (Dec 7, 2010)

TehSkull said:
			
		

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Honestly, Suck it. I'm a huge Kingdom Hearts fan. But they really are just over complicating the story. It's getting ******** crazy. I just read and understood gran's post, it doesn't make the story and any of it any better. The story was so much Simplier when it was Sora is one of the legendary people who can Wield a keyblade, Roxas is his nobody and gets created when he gets his heart taken or whatever near the end of KH1. 

Now we have crap with hearts being ripped out, repaired, becoming the MC that we all know. There really is no need to expand the story to this crazy crap. That's the bad thing with them making so many games in a series and connecting them, they create a huge web of stupid.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

Wow... when you read that, and then look at the story of the first kingdom hearts... it almost makes you say "wtf?"

They seriously sound like two different games belonging in two different series -_-


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## Ikki (Dec 7, 2010)

I don't really have the time to read through the thread but

Kingdom Hearts titles connect with each other. Each new title adds stuff to the story in some way, maybe even a way you don't notice at first.

I'll put the latest example which *involves spoilers from KH3D/KH III* (most probably from KH3D)



Spoiler



Birth by Sleep.
This game was made for two reasons and an argueable third (which I'll state first)

First and argueable
• Fanboys wanting to know about the past and the previous Keyblade wielders
Self explanatory

Second
• Ventus, Terra and Aqua
Who is this "he" Xigbar refers to when talking to Sora in KH II? 
Same with "the others" , also said by Xigbar
He is refering to Terra, Aqua and Ven (not bullshitting, Nomura said it himself)

Third and in my opinon now, the most important
• The introduction of the Mark of Mastery concept...
...which I believe is Kingdom Hearts 3D's story about.
Why? Because  KH3D was confirmed to be linked directly with KH III and you play as both Riku and Sora.
_And_ Re:Coded's secret cutscene said sora and Riku will be having the Mark of Mastery exam.



Well, I don't know if I made myself clear nor if I said everything I wanted but KH games aren't straightforward, nor they should be.


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## Waynes1987 (Dec 7, 2010)

I think Many Games companys kill there games with sequels and prequels. They really can't help themselves. :sigh:
If a game does really well, They have this over powering Urge to Make another game which drains the series of its purity.  KH1 and KH2 being a perfect example of that. 
When they make a sequel to a game there faced with the problem of "how to improve it" Which usually results in them adding more. Unnecessary and less important things. 
Makes you wonder why they even bother putting in things that arent really needed. If it wasn't needed in the first game why is it needed in the second. 
The improvements in battle systems in KH2 though was welcome to me, Although minor changes it seemed to run smother. 

Square-Enix are known for there 'over doing' Storys though Just look at what there doing to Final Fantasy 7, With the whole Crisis Core, Advent children ect. They just dont know when to stop. That with Disney's Need to make money, its no surprise its happening.


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## granville (Dec 7, 2010)

To be totally fair, BBS is extremely important to the story and has some of the best payoff in answers i've seen any of the games provide. Especially in showing us the origins and fate of Xehanort. It connects to a lot of mysteries in the other games. And it's actually quite a fun game. Very little filler, almost every world has a purpose in the main plot. We also learned the specifics behind what it takes to become a keyblade wielder. And of course, the explanation about Ven.

And i must say, i'm a huge Vanitas fan. Not because of what he ends up looking like, but because his dialog and voice are really awesome. I will say no more besides the voice actor really showed some talent there. Might shock some people who have a certain disdain for a particular "happy carefree sappy" character in the series. I actually daresay that the voice actor is much more competent voicing a bad guy voice than, well...Ahem...


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## Gundam Eclipse (Dec 7, 2010)

granville said:
			
		

> And i must say, i'm a huge Vanitas fan. Not because of what he ends up looking like, but because his dialog and voice are really awesome. I will say no more besides the voice actor really showed some talent there. Might shock some people who have a certain disdain for a particular "happy carefree sappy" character in the series. I actually daresay that the voice actor is much more competent voicing a bad guy voice than, well...Ahem...


Vanitas is one of the coolest and badass characters in KH IMO.
I haven't actually played the game yet, but i have read up info and looked at a few videos, and his dialogue and personality are just awesome.
I ended up laughing the first time i heard his voice, because i knew his and "his" voice actors were the same, and went on a long winded thinking process where i imagined the reactions of people who hated "that" character.


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## Hells Malice (Dec 7, 2010)

I hated all the 'original' KH. Sora was/is just a terrible character, and i've always hated him.
I started liking the series when they changed up the main character (358 and BBS).
So if they keep it up, i'll keep playin'. If they switch back to Sora, i'll stop.


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## Ethevion (Dec 7, 2010)

I stopped playing the games after KH2. The part that they really screwed up on was making Sephiroth beatable in KH2. o.o


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## notmeanymore (Dec 7, 2010)

arpeejajo said:
			
		

> I stopped playing the games after KH2. The part that they really screwed up on was making Sephiroth beatable in KH2. o.o



The fact that he was beatable or the fact that he was _hardly_ beatable? I had to use cheats to beat Sephiroth in KH2. I beat him legit (after grinding to like level 80) in KH1.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 7, 2010)

TehSkull said:
			
		

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Compare him to the Sephiroth in KH1... he's a push over.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 8, 2010)

KH1's Sephiroth is a pushover once you get the tactics down. I never attempted to learn the tactics for KH2's Sephiroth so I still have tons of trouble with him.


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## KingdomBlade (Dec 8, 2010)

I only knew half of the things granville said. KH is probably one of the most... incredibly complicated storylines. I am not a fanboy (contrary to what people may thing due to my username) but wow, that is a huuuuge story. I do agree that if they took CoM and turned it into a numbered/main game instead of making it into a spin-off like game, it would have been very good. It contains to many important elements to be ignored as a spin-off. The reason why so many people became confused on the arrival of KH2 is because a majority of players did not play CoM.

Coded was unnecessary to be truthful. The story is a huge piece of filler. They could have actually turned it into a mini-game that accompanied another game (KH2 or BBS), it would have worked better. The secret ending could have worked from there. I will admit that the gameplay is enjoyable though, but it's unnecessary as a seperate game. 

Square is not killing Kingdom Hearts. In fact, making more games makes it more accessible to new players. It allows new players to play a game on their accustomed platform and then play the other games in turn.

Remember that Disney is creating a gimmick to make the character of Mickey Mouse more adventurous and dark? This along with Epic Mickey is accomplishing that.

The complicated story and cast of characters doesn't kill it, it makes people crave it more. I think it's a brilliant selling point, more games equals more fans, more fans equals more sales, more sales equals more money, and more money equals more games. Cliffhangers are what helps sell a sequel.


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## jalaneme (Dec 8, 2010)

the op has answered their own questions, the series has gone too far it's starting to get like pokemon now, 1 was was ok but i got bored of it, 2's gameplay was better but again i got bored of it half way, i haven't touched a kh game since.


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## granville (Dec 8, 2010)

TehSkull said:
			
		

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I never had any trouble with either Sephiroth fight, KH2's was easier than the first. Playing on critical mode in Final Mix (the hardest difficulty there is), he's actually easier than some of the other bosses in the game. I felt Roxas was the hardest boss, even harder than Xaldin (again, he is only fightable in the Japan-only Final Mix). If you want a real challenge and happen to have Final Mix, go refight all the organization members' data forms in the Cavern of Remembrance on critical mode. THEN you get to a REAL fight- Lingering Sentiment. It's Terra's armor reanimated, and hard as hell. Good luck with that.


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## Gaiaknight (Dec 8, 2010)

sephiroth was pathetic in kh2 i beat him in less than 2min -_-


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## Psyfira (Dec 8, 2010)

I think the point isn't that too many new games are killing the series, but a lack of the one "proper" game that everyone's been waiting for; KH2 was released in 2006, despite having 4 years to think about it Square are in no hurry to actually make KH3 which lets be honest, is a game we'd much rather see. Backstory is alright, but just not as much fun.

If I'd played KH1 and 2 in the year they were released then Id've been even more disappointed with 358/2 Days after waiting so long for a new title to come out. Days wasn't great, the missions got old fast, the storyline was all over the place, half the stuff in it was utterly pointless and it only got good near the end. I haven't played BBS (platform-jumping rant saved for another day) and Re:Coded isn't out here till January so I don't know what they're like, but if they are just as bad as Days then I can see where you're coming from.

I don't agree about CoM though, while the card gameplay was dull as dishwater the story was just brilliant; I loved how the two storylines overlapped, it completely changed my opinion of Riku as a character and explained a lot of what was going on at the start of KH2. CoM is supposed to be played in between KH1 and 2, if you played it after KH2 then I don't think it would've worked so well because by then you know some extra stuff that you shouldn't.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

When they do make a KH3, I want it to be the final game. Make it one biiiig game. I don't care if it has to use 50gb or whatever for the Blu-Ray and multiple DVD's for the Xbox 360. Make it one big game, answer all the questions so we don't have to read ultimania or anything like that.


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## SubliminalSegue (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> When they do make a KH3, I want it to be the final game. Make it one biiiig game. I don't care if it has to use 50gb or whatever for the Blu-Ray and multiple DVD's for the Xbox 360. Make it one big game, answer all the questions so we don't have to read ultimania or anything like that.



Pffft. Good luck with that one.

I liked Birth By Sleep before I tossed my PSP in a ditch, but sadly, it's getting a little bit nuts. You find a cash cow and you milk it till it's teats are tapped.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

SubliminalSegue said:
			
		

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It is getting a bit ridiculous. If anything, I just wish they would bring out a full game on the home consoles, because putting all this filler onto our plates... for me anyways, I'm just going to walk away from the series because I had enough.

I respect games that have great stories in them. Like Halo, it has a very deep story overall not just the [lol im chief bang bang bang] story. And it was enough to make me wanting to come back.

But Kingdom Hearts, while it may have a good story, they're bringing out all these games that are either answering nothing or asking more. And it's losing me.


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## FireGrey (Dec 8, 2010)

Ehh i hated spinoffs especially spinoff series.
It's what turned my love for Ratchet and Clank into hatred...


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## SubliminalSegue (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

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I think Organization XIII (with the exception of Axel) is the biggest group of queers in gaming history.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

FireGrey said:
			
		

> Ehh i hated spinoffs especially spinoff series.
> It's what turned my love for Ratchet and Clank into hatred...



I'm sorry but they released tooo many of those games too fast. 

There's what, 4 on the ps2, 2 on the ps3, 1 on the PSP, and there's 1 Secret Agent Clank on the PSP? Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's a shame to see series like R&C and Kingdom Hearts do this. I would have been perfectly happy if they released 1, released 2, released BbS, then release 3. But he's taken on so many projects, and he's giving us all this sidecrap.. it's ruining the series IN MY OPINION.


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## FireGrey (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

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It seems like RaC went downhill since Ratchet Gladiator...
KH 3D better be KH3...


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

wtf..I never even heard of Deadlocked.

And would you be surprised if 3D was KH3? It's probably going to be such a crucial part of the story where if you don't play it, you won't have a clue what the hell is going on in KH3.

And I'm not saying KH games are bad, I just find their quality, bombed after KH1.


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## prowler (Dec 8, 2010)

I like how Square Enix doesn't have to worry about the haters, they still buy the games anyway.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 8, 2010)

prowler_ said:
			
		

> I like how Square Enix doesn't have to worry about the haters, they still buy the games anyway.



/thread


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

prowler_ said:
			
		

> I like how Square Enix doesn't have to worry about the haters, they still buy the games anyway.



Actually, the last KH game I bought, was KH1. KH2 I just borrowed from a friend, days I never bought because I'm not a fan of paying for spin-offs. Birth By Sleep my friend bought me, but I returned it the next day for store credit. [I downloaded the .iso for my psp]


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## granville (Dec 9, 2010)

KH3D isn't going to be the third numbered game. It is one of possibly a couple of games that connect to KH3 though, and is being given similar treatment as BBS in terms of story according to the developers. Meaning the story may be on par with a main numbered title.

And i think prowler_ meant that Square Enix isn't worried about what haters say because a few people who hate the series are irrelevant to them. The series sells extremely well. They aren't about to change a winning formula.

Personally, my issue isn't the complicated story, or the story in general. It's the amount of filler that isn't relevant the the main story. Cut out all the fat from every game, and you'd have far less actual relevant game, probably cutting down the amount of games to about a third or so of what it is now...


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## Eighteen (Dec 9, 2010)

Hell to the no !! The more kingdom hearts game The better, end of story 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (well at least that's what i think)


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 10, 2010)

Eighteen said:
			
		

> Hell to the no !! The more kingdom hearts game The better, end of story
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Iono, it has to end soon. If not, just do main title games, no more side story crap. Otherwise it's going to lose all the "WOW" factors it has, even if it's still a little bit.


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## granville (Dec 10, 2010)

You'll be very disappointed then. Not only are there a good number of games to release before KH3 (which will not be started until Versus 13 is out btw, confirmed), but they have no intention on stopping the series with the release of KH3.

All KH games that are released from the beginning, until KH3 are something the developers are dubbing "the Xehanort Saga". They have plans for a very very long running series after the current chain of events is done. Perhaps without Sora as the main character, and with a new villain entirely. Unless something happens to magically stop people from buying the games, the series will not stop.


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## notmeanymore (Dec 10, 2010)

granville said:
			
		

> KH3D isn't going to be the third numbered game. It is one of possibly a couple of games that connect to KH3 though, and is being given similar treatment as BBS in terms of story according to the developers. Meaning the story may be on par with a main numbered title.
> 
> And i think prowler_ meant that Square Enix isn't worried about what haters say because a few people who hate the series are irrelevant to them. The series sells extremely well. They aren't about to change a winning formula.
> 
> Personally, my issue isn't the complicated story, or the story in general. It's the amount of filler that isn't relevant the the main story. Cut out all the fat from every game, and you'd have far less actual relevant game, probably cutting down the amount of games to about a third or so of what it is now...



A lot of the spin-offs are filled with well...filler because each game has it's connection to another one, but there's not enough they can do with each game to make the whole thing plot-relevant. If you cut out all the filler from CoM, you hardly have a full game. You'd have pretty much half a game since Riku's storyline wouldn't really be touched.


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## granville (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm not saying they should leave the spaces blank where they cut the filler out. Just come up with something relevant, interesting, and fun. Birth By Sleep kept things pretty relevant and interesting (for me).

I'd say Riku's story was pretty relevant on the whole (and i found him fun to play as, maybe more so than Sora), but his story suffered from the same issues as Sora's- Disney Worlds. Except his don't even have cutscenes at all, making them the epitome of irrelevant...


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## NiGHtS (Dec 25, 2010)

granville said:
			
		

> I'm not saying they should leave the spaces blank where they cut the filler out. Just come up with something relevant, interesting, and fun. Birth By Sleep kept things pretty relevant and interesting (for me).
> 
> I'd say Riku's story was pretty relevant on the whole (and i found him fun to play as, maybe more so than Sora), but his story suffered from the same issues as Sora's- Disney Worlds. Except his don't even have cutscenes at all, making them the epitome of irrelevant...



When they did that it just made me wish they had released some sort of 'Crisis Core'-esque movie, accessible to everyone and would no doubt be a major success...


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## jalaneme (Dec 28, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

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there is actually 4 on the ps3, not 2 and the series is stretching out way too far, they should just kill them off already!


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## Arithmatics (Dec 29, 2010)

Technically

When you have a new sequel/prequel/postquel/etc-quel. Its just a way for the game creators to let the fans know what happened/going to happen/is happening. 

Long story short it answers questions the player might/would ask.

Hence for me I say no it doesn't kill the story because I actually found out how Roxas came to be and who he is and why in KH2 it friggin starts off with his "story". 

The useless part is which in 358/2 days, there's this character that came but never was which i found to be quite pointless 



Spoiler



(Xion)


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## _Chaz_ (Dec 29, 2010)

I liked the first one, and it's still in my top PS2 games. After that, it kinda went downhill for me. The series lost its magic and it was no longer any fun to follow the characters. Something happened to the story that shouldn't have.


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## Arithmatics (Dec 29, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> I liked the first one, and it's still in my top PS2 games. After that, it kinda went downhill for me. The series lost its magic and it was no longer any fun to follow the characters. Something happened to the story that shouldn't have.



Elaborate questions that needed to be answered with subliminal storylines in multi-platformed spin-offs?


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