# Piracy vs Used Game Stores



## Shanester (Aug 6, 2013)

Which hurts the game industry more? Companies like Gamestop/Best Buy or torrenting sites?

Gamestop: Built on ripping off customers, game devs, and employers; none of the money buying/selling used games goes towards developers.
Online Piracy: Takes away potential sales from everyone involved (for the most part).

I am not advocating either choice. I feel that both "harm" the game industry, but which does this more?


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## tbgtbg (Aug 6, 2013)

Oh boy, this again.

Honestly, I could NOT care less if used games don't generate money for the publishers (and it's publishers who get the money from sales, if you think devs see more than a pittance, you don't know publishers, the real crooks). They get paid once for every copy, that's fair, that's enough, that's how every other transaction on Earth has worked since money was invented.


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## Armadillo (Aug 6, 2013)

Piracy.

Used games, at least one person bought that copy new. That's all the money the devs are entitled to.


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## rusty shackleford (Aug 6, 2013)

Well some people pirate because their country doesn't offer the the game in its entirety or not at all. And some do it to try the game before they buy it. Sure people need jobs but if you buy used money doesnt go to the publishers anyway so saying "i bought a game used to support the developers" isn't true. I feel gamestop hurts more than piracy because there are more stores than downloads of some games. I went back to PC gaming a few years ago, so many great game deals with prices lower than used games at gamestop and money goes to the publishers. I think developers should set up some kind donation system for guilty pirates, but if you want more sales dont sell games for $60 with <10 hours of gameplay or no re-playability.


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## BlackWizzard17 (Aug 6, 2013)

It's not like only one game is sold then the other 300,000 people download that one game.


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## VashTS (Aug 6, 2013)

used games. if there were no used games, devs would get the proper amount of money for a new copy. piracy does not hurt. if i play the game via pirate methods, i would never have purchased it. they lose nothing.


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## mightymuffy (Aug 6, 2013)

Normally I'd say piracy, but when I see some spotty sales assistant in my local GAME telling little Johnny's mummy to buy xxx game from the used section coz it'll save her a fiver, well I'm not that sure actually....


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## Redhorse (Aug 6, 2013)

Shanester said:


> Which hurts the game industry more? Companies like Gamestop/Best Buy or torrenting sites?
> 
> Gamestop: Built on ripping off customers, game devs, and employers; none of the money buying/selling used games goes towards developers.
> Online Piracy: Takes away potential sales from everyone involved (for the most part).
> ...


 
I suggest nothing to no one, but I have been touting this since I first heard of flash cards. Do the math with the nmber of times a person will buy, selling that one single game through Gamestop (or whoever) and that game (many, most) have gone through dozens .. all right, at least half a dozen hands. The Flash card goes through one persons hands and from what I see, many who own those F. Carts, either stop playing the game shortly after trying it, or end up purcahsing it to have the box, instructions and so forth. I realize not every f.cart user does this, but a significant number do. They BUY the game if they actually like it.

I have to believe that Nintendos move to demo the games through download has done more to take the wind out of the sales of f.carts ( if they were they actually working and viable solution at this point) than alll the blocking-through-code writing, would. I for one am in the process of buying every game I 'Demo'd through one of  those gadgets, for several reasons. My consciounce (sp?) played no part in it, I'm not buying them up because I feel guilty...

I want the physical item, with cover art and original instructions. Just look on ebay and see just how many people sell just the (DS game) cover or instructions alone... many... so there IS a market, and I AM that market.

Again, before someone sees fit to trash everything I've just said (and someone certainly will) I do NOT advocate thier use.

HOWEVER, this issue.. I. M.O. goes deeper. I have been a live performance entertainer for over 30 years, professionally, it's my occupation/vocation. Years ago when the older actors and actress's were dying in old age homes (now they have alternate options) they had spent thier millions and thier relatives were bitching about the idea that they should continue to be paid for thier work.. I have no real answer hear after much consideration but now those actors recieve royalties. Are YOU paid AGAIN, each time someone wears that shirt you sold them at walmart? NO, and neither should they (the actors) once thier work is done. Remember, I fall into thier catagory occupation wose, so I'm selling MYSELF short too.
I appologise for the rant but I feel that no man (or person) should be compensated for work they've done, more than once. The rights holders, such Distribution company? Thats another story altogether. 

I have much more but my computer f98cking up on me so I'll stop here for now...


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## bobmcjr (Aug 6, 2013)

Used games. For physical copies, piracy tends to preserve games/media rather than add a scratch to a possibly rare disk each time a game changes owner. Whenever possible, I play backup copies of whatever I buy new.


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## zabikt (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't know why so many people are telling that selling used games is killing industry, or reducing developers income.
In my opinion is opposite.
They are able to sell such amounts just because of existence used games shops like GameStop. Without such shops (and second hand market) they will be selling much less.
One of important factors for the game is premiere sell. Games are expensive for most of gamers. If games will be bought by buyers who could afford it only, sell figures would be much smaller. But it exist quite big group of people, who are buying games at premiere, paying full price, playing such games and selling it after completion. They can afford these max $20 for the game, not $60 or more (reduce figures for portable games). They are paying full price, but this price, for them, is kind of deposit which will be returned when they will sell this game (and buy next one).
Banning second hand would kill industry - it's simple.


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## Xarsah16 (Aug 6, 2013)

I like to support local used game shops. Gamers Anonymous, in Albuquerque NM is one example. This is a gamer trying to make a living by owning a store. I do not go to GameStop because I am feeding into a major corporation when I can go local. I still buy games from GA but when I can't, I download. New games are too expensive.


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## Taleweaver (Aug 7, 2013)

Piracy is worse. And perhaps it's ironical, but I think that the pirates who just download a single game, play it all the way through, then download another, hurt the industry more than the magpies who just download everything and barely play their entire collection.

Allow me to elaborate: the thing about playing a game is that you become attached to it if it's fun. With pretty much every game having multiple entries and sequels, knowing a game (because you played another version - even if that was illegal or used) increases the chances of wanting to play more. As soon as it releases, usually.

And this is where second hand and piracy differ most. You'll find most pirated games online pretty much as soon as the game is released. Whereas second hand sales usually take a few weeks or months to become available in stores (and even longer before the difference with a retail game becomes apparent). And since you're already in the store by then and wanting to play THAT game, it's just a matter of going to another rack and picking up the "more expensive" copy.

The other difference is obviously that game companies are starting to use that second hand policy to their advantage. They might not get anything from the shops, but DLC can compensate for that.


I'll also leave this video here because it's worth thinking about: extra credits on used games (don't forget to check the links in the direct commentary below...those are also good ones).


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## DinohScene (Aug 7, 2013)

Both equally.
But piracy more then used games, since that could steal away potential sales (of currently released games)

For retro games.
It doesn't matter since no one except retro/used games stores are making a profit.
Personally, I'd like to have original copies of me games, so I personally say piracy is worse.
For both.


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## Gahars (Aug 7, 2013)

DinohScene said:


> Both equally.
> But piracy* more* then used games.


 
I don't think that's what "equally" means.

Anyway, yeah, piracy is a much more legitimate concern. Publishers really fuck over retailers in terms of sales cuts (retailers get a pathetically small cut of game sales), so it's hard to feel all that bad when they whine about used game sales. Stores have few other alternatives if they want to turn a profit. At least the game's already been purchased once, and at least DLC ensures that you can still make money off of used copies.


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## DinohScene (Aug 7, 2013)

Gahars said:


> I don't think that's what "equally" means.
> 
> Anyway, yeah, piracy is a much more legitimate concern. Publishers really fuck over retailers in terms of sales cuts (retailers get a pathetically small cut of game sales), so it's hard to feel all that bad when they whine about used game sales. Stores have few other alternatives if they want to turn a profit. At least the game's already been purchased once, and at least DLC ensures that you can still make money off of used copies.


 
A sale of a used game takes away one sale of a new game.
Piracy does the same.
However, piracy is more of an concern then used games, since the used game already was sold before.


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## Gahars (Aug 7, 2013)

Shanester said:


> Which hurts the game industry more? Companies like Gamestop/Best Buy or torrenting sites?


 


DinohScene said:


> A sale of a used game takes away one sale of a new game.
> Piracy does the same.
> However, *piracy is more of an concern then used games*, since the used game already was sold before.


 
...Okay, yeah, that means they're not equal then.

(Also, used copies/illegal copies don't necessarily "take away" new sales. We can't assert that people would've purchased a new copy if a used/pirated version copy didn't exist because there's just no way to definitively prove that. It's worth keeping that in mind in a discussion like this.)


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## PityOnU (Aug 7, 2013)

As far as I'm concerned, used games are legalized piracy.

I very rarely (read: my family very rarely) bought used games when I was younger, and now that I'm older and understand the implications of the practice I never buy or sell used games.

Just my opinion, though. You are entitled to your own (you monster).


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## DinohScene (Aug 7, 2013)

Gahars said:


> ...Okay, yeah, that means they're not equal then.
> 
> (Also, used copies/illegal copies don't necessarily "take away" new sales. We can't assert that people would've purchased a new copy if a used/pirated version copy didn't exist because there's just no way to definitively prove that. It's worth keeping that in mind in a discussion like this.)


 
They indeed don't necessarily take away new sales indeed, but they both take away potential new sales.
Only difference between piracy and used game sales is that the used game has already been sold once, thus money goes to the developers.
With piracy, there's nothing going to the developers at all.
This talking about a potential sale of a new game.


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## trumpet-205 (Aug 7, 2013)

Used game, because it limits the potential of earning profit. To be fair, entertainment industries have always labeled used market as gray area. In US, the only reason used market exists is because of First Sale Doctrine. Even then there are publishers constantly challenging the Doctrine, due to various loopholes within.

Piracy hurts the publisher too, but at very minimal cost. Only few among those who pirate will buy legitimate copy if piracy is eliminated. The exception is when an intellectual property is leaked prior to being released (example a video game leaked online two weeks prior to release date). That can do significant damage to the publisher.


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## nando (Aug 7, 2013)

piracy rips developers off

used game companies rip developers and people off.


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## Slamicite (Aug 7, 2013)

There is a lot of that nonsense of selling a license rather than full product ownership. 
In that way, I frankly think both are almost the same thing. That is, accessing information achieved by someone else without some ludicrous license from them.
However, buying used games means that saving something like $3 is enough for you to not support the developers, whereas by downloading the software itself there really is a good chance that the person truly would not, or, more nobly, could not buy the game.


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## the_randomizer (Aug 7, 2013)

Gamestop selling a used game for only 10% less than value of a full price game....seems legit. I'd rather resort to pirating.

Piracy is obtaining an illegal copy, buying a used game doesn't give original developers money. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I wish Game Crazy was still around, their used games were actually worth it.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

My own personal used game policy:
(_keep in mind I rarely buy games anywhere remotely close to release_)
- If the difference between a new and a used copy is $5, buy the new copy.
- If there is some additional content that is only available with the new copy and the price difference is negligible or equal to, buy the new copy.
- If the price difference between new and used is 20% or greater, buy the used copy.
- If I have a coupon for $5 off a used game + the general 10% or more difference between used and new + the additional 10% for "power up rewards", buy the used copy.

I also buy most, if not all, DLC for each game I purchase, so, the devs are seeing some revenue there that they wouldn't otherwise be seeing...


My own personal piracy policy:
Don't.




the_randomizer said:


> Gamestop selling a used game for only 10% less than value of a full price game....seems legit. I'd rather resort to pirating.


Media does not exactly "depreciate" in value in the same way that a car or lawnmower might...


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## the_randomizer (Aug 7, 2013)

I just saw that what people do in their private lives is their business. Yes, I have pirated before, many of us have. If I'm going to get a used game, I sure as hell won't get one from Gamestop but from Amazon or eBay instead.


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## Shanester (Aug 7, 2013)

For the people arguing "people still wouldn't buy a copy if piracy were gone": I wonder how many pirates bought 3DS games...


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## calmwaters (Aug 7, 2013)

It's not about the money; it's about the games. I'm not paying $40 for a game that's been out for 5 years, which is what Gamestop has been known to do. So, I'll hurt their money grubbing, greedy hands by getting it for less than that. Maybe like 10/15 dollars if I feel generous.


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## the_randomizer (Aug 7, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> It's not about the money; it's about the games. I'm not paying $40 for a game that's been out for 5 years, which is what Gamestop has been known to do. So, I'll hurt their money grubbing, greedy hands by getting it for less than that. Maybe like 10/15 dollars if I feel generous.


 


Screw Gamestop. I'll get used games somewhere else. A used 3DS XL was only $10 cheaper than a new one. That's said. Same with their games, they're typically 10% cheaper than a new copy. No wonder people pirate.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there...  It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.

Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that.  It's designed to be expensive.  You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching.  You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment.  Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.

However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly.  You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy.  Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item...  If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots...  Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)...  Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?


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## Panzer Tacticer (Aug 7, 2013)

Every person I have ever known, that is prone to the ole download route, is also an aggressive gamer that aggressively buys both games and hardware.

I know of some people that aggressively buy games but also aggressively sell them back and use the funds to buy new games.

Now piracy 'sounds' bad and used games sales simply sounds legit.

But put yourself in the developers position. Sure you won't like the pirate, as theft is theft, but, who would you hate more, a person that will take all while aggressively buying as well, or the industry built on a premise, that it is ok to sell your product, used, over and over, and not offer you a bloody cent, all because there is no law against it, and not think there is anything wrong with the doing of it.

Piracy is illegal, because people wrote law saying it was. Used games are only legal, because no one has said it wasn't illegal.

Meanwhile, mr developer is likely not happy when a pirate pirates, but, if the pirate is also aggressively buying, well that's life. But I can't see any developers liking knowing their game could have sold a great deal more units, if not for the fact that people sell them used.

And used, what does it get you, a paltry few bucks and the store then sells it like it was almost new.

If I am going to have sympathy for anyone, it's the developers who gave the market the game, not the stores crying they need to rip off developers through used sales just to remain in business.

I buy most of my games as digital downloads. I don't need the used game option. I also don't need game stores. I am happy seeing ALL my money go to the people that made the game. Yes I download, but yes I also spend money on games too. I prefer to download any time the company's practices are shitty (such as obnoxious drm processes as if they can make code a hacker can't hack eh).


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

Panzer Tacticer said:


> Every person I have ever known, that is prone to the ole download route, is also an aggressive gamer that aggressively buys both games and hardware.
> 
> I know of some people that aggressively buy games but also aggressively sell them back and use the funds to buy new games.
> 
> ...


There's a pretty fucking big "what if?" in there...
Like, "What if the majority of pirates bought a lot of games because some people I know do?"
This argument always seems to be back by limited empirical data...


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## calmwaters (Aug 7, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there... It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.
> 
> Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. It's designed to be expensive. You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching. You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment. Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.
> 
> However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly. You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy. Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item... If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots... Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)... Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?


But why should gaming have to be an expensive hobby? Movie collecting isn't an expensive hobby, but you can spend tons of money on it. It's a bit nicer for those collectors though if the items are cheap, because they can get more movies that way. People are likelier to spend $7.00 than $15 for a used movie. And, the more people spend, the more money is able to be circulated in the market. And don't worry about the game developers: they make maybe 25/30 dollars an hour, which you can totally live off of without breaking a sweat.


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## PityOnU (Aug 7, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there... It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.
> 
> Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. It's designed to be expensive. You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching. You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment. Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.
> 
> However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly. You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy. Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item... If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots... Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)... Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?


 
Eh... gaming is actually pretty cheap. I would go as far to say it's an opiate of the masses. I don't think any adult gamer is regularly in a situation where they cannot afford a game.

For the economy, piracy is worse than used games.

For the devs, they are both about equal.

For consumers, I think used games are worse.

And in regards to your used car and guitar metaphor (the same ones that are used literally even damn time this topic comes up), physical goods deteriorate with use, IP does not.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> But why should gaming have to be an expensive hobby? Movie collecting isn't an expensive hobby, but you can spend tons of money on it. It's a bit nicer for those collectors though if the items are cheap, because they can get more movies that way. People are likelier to spend $7.00 than $15 for a used movie. And, the more people spend, the more money is able to be circulated in the market. And don't worry about the game developers: they make maybe 25/30 dollars an hour, which you can totally live off of without breaking a sweat.


The video market is secondary income for studios. They make movies to sell movie tickets, not necessarily DVDs/Blurays (unless they're straight to video releases...but who pirate's those?). Games have historically been made strictly for the retail market. However, with the movement towards digital, there's the hope that devs will one day be able to do away with publishers all together and sell their own games...



PityOnU said:


> And in regards to your used car and guitar metaphor (the same ones that are used literally even damn time this topic comes up), physical goods deteriorate with use, IP does not.


 
Not sure what point you're trying to make with this...but it's exactly what I stated in an earlier post after someone was crying about Gamestop only charging 10% less for a used game.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

sorry...dbl post


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## Gahars (Aug 7, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> But why should gaming have to be an expensive hobby? Movie collecting isn't an expensive hobby, but you can spend tons of money on it..


 
Because video games cost a significant amount of money while being aimed at a much more limited audience.

Anyone can walk into a theater and watch a film, and (region coding notwithstanding) any Blu-Ray/DVD player will play any Blu-Ray or DVD no matter who made the original film. Not only is the market for video games smaller, it's also fragmented along system lines (Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo/Handhelds/iOS/Android/PCs, and PCs are fragmented by system specs/etc.).

To recoup production costs and (hopefully) turn a reasonable profit, the prices for games are going to have to be higher.

(It's also worth noting that, when taking inflation into account, video game prices are the lowest they've ever been and it looks like, for the most part, they're only going to continue to decrease further. Video games are a luxury hobby, sure, but the barrier of entry is improving all the time.)


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## Slamicite (Aug 7, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> People pirate because the ability to easily do so is there... It's not out of principle, and if you truly believe it is...just know that you're delusional.
> 
> Gaming is a hobby, and an expensive one at that. It's designed to be expensive. You're not collecting pogs here, or bird watching. You are paying (or not paying...) for a premium form of interactive entertainment. Whether or not you see actual value in it is on you.
> 
> However, justifying piracy by inferring that it's somehow better for the world than purchasing games pre-owned is just silly. You may think that piracy is the lesser of two evils since "the devs" never see any of the money from used game sales, but at least money spent at Gamestop actually has a positive impact on the economy. Neither licensing terms, nor law state that any developer is entitled to see payment from multiple transactions from the same physical item... If that were the case, Toyota is really missing out on sales from used car lots... Fender is really missing out on sales from that used U.S.A. Telecaster I bought from the shop downtown (I wish!)... Do you kick back a few bucks to the dev every time you sell one of your games on ebay/craigslist or to a friend?


This guy is pretty spot-on, however I've bought games even though I should easily pirate them. Why is that? If being able to pirate meant people would not buy games, then games wouldn't sell at all, don't you think?

Yes, it is expensive. So if someone does not have the means to pay for that, I see no harm whatsoever in illegally accessing it.

Nobody is saying that they're good, but that's the kind of thing that happens when the economy is on the mud.
Any spent money has impact on the economy. I'd say the impact caused by videogames to the general economy is marginal. As you stated, they're a hobby. It would mostly just affect Gamestop itself, and I don't think that's too bad.
Indeed, the physical item. The physical item may have a piece of data that can only be legally activated once. 
A car is sold considering that it will deteriorate. A game can last fucking forever.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

Slamicite said:


> This guy is pretty spot-on, however I've bought games even though I should easily pirate them. Why is that? If being able to pirate meant people would not buy games, then games wouldn't sell at all, don't you think?
> 
> Yes, it is expensive. So if someone does not have the means to pay for that, I see no harm whatsoever in illegally accessing it.
> 
> ...


See above "Gaming is a luxury hobby" posts.
Even more of a luxury in certain territories...though people seem to be of the mind that if it's hard to get legimately that somehow justifies stealing it...
Gas is still a hell of a lot more expensive in Brazil than the U.S.  Does that mean you're doing gas'n'goes all over town?


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## Carnivean (Aug 7, 2013)

I know people who actively only buy used games, they are obviously doing the same harm as someone who only pirates and gets the same games. But this entire argument is flawed as there's no way to know how many games a pirate buys after pirating or already owns and still pirates (I've pirated plenty of games I've already preordered because of bullshit regional time differences or because it's a collector's edition or something I'd rather not open.) and there's no way to know what percentage of games a used purchaser buys new (and more importantly when they buy them new dictating the profit margins).


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## FAST6191 (Aug 7, 2013)

This again?

Most laws in most places say resale is OK (see stuff like first sale doctrine) and even if we throw the oddity that is licensing into the mix there is still precisely nothing in terms of anybody anywhere making a case in a court as far as games go (to say nothing of various courts giving the go ahead to license resale), consider that other areas of IP and non repairable items see resale all the time and it only gets sillier. To that end second hand games are as much a valid part of the business as any other and the game companies have exactly no grounds upon which to have a bitching session.
I probably used a similar example in the past but blaming used sales for problems is roughly equivalent to blaming the magic games buying fairies for not buying copies of your game. If you can not make enough money with your game and the other ways to make money then you have a bad business model.
It is valid enough I guess (server licenses/software as a service components and such) but I will also not look favourably upon those doing online passes either -- the numbers online matter if various models are to be believed matter and that probably brings people onto piracy.

Other than making numbers online, a buzz or some such then as piracy is not reinforcing the value of games in a hard economical sense where the other is perfectly valid/acceptable facet of law/business then piracy is more damaging by default if nothing else.


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## Slamicite (Aug 7, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> See above "Gaming is a luxury hobby" posts.
> Even more of a luxury in certain territories...though people seem to be of the mind that if it's hard to get legimately that somehow justifies stealing it...
> Gas is still a hell of a lot more expensive in Brazil than the U.S. Does that mean you're doing gas'n'goes all over town?


 
See above "I see no harm in illegally accessing it."
Stealing is when you take my cyberdwarf pillow and I don't have it anymore. That's what happens with gas or a car. If a person could make it magically materialize in front of them, why shouldn't they?
Since there is no physical resource involved in manufacturing an executable file, there is no monetary loss when someone gets it without paying. The only issue is whether the authors would get paid when people can get their stuff for free. And as I've mentioned, if that weren't the case, no games would sell as of now.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

Slamicite said:


> See above "I see no harm in illegally accessing it."
> Stealing is when you take my cyberdwarf pillow and I don't have it anymore. That's what happens with gas or a car. If a person could make it magically materialize in front of them, why shouldn't they?
> Since there is no physical resource involved in manufacturing an executable file, there is no monetary loss when someone gets it without paying. The only issue is whether the authors would get paid when people can get their stuff for free. And as I've mentioned, if that weren't the case, no games would sell as of now.


Right. Copying and using something without the explicit permission of the owner of said item isn't stealing. It's just being a dick.

The reasons for piracy you listed above do not justify a crime.
Being too poor to buy a video game does not justify acquiring it illegally.
A game being difficult to find locally does not justify acquiring it illegally.
You are not entitled to play every video game that is released. You are not entitled to listen to every song that is written. You are not entitled to see every movie that is filmed. You are not entitled to read every book that is published. If you think otherwise, you should feel ashamed


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## emigre (Aug 7, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> A game being difficult to find locally does not justify acquiring it illegally.


 

This week I received three gaems I imported from NA because I can't buy them here. I truly am a hero of the industry.


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## chrisrlink (Aug 7, 2013)

well it depends if you pirate say Pokemon black 2(which is a recent release) then yes it douse hurt them but say you pirate er Duck Hunt they lose nothing cause that game isn't even carried new (I hope not thats some old tech) and used game stores don't either


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## pasc (Aug 7, 2013)

Well since that "so-called" piracy acutally made me buy alot of games because I found them so awesome I'll have to say:

Used Game Stores are more problematic. (But awesome from a gamer perspective).



emigre said:


> This week I received three gaems I imported from NA because I can't buy them here. I truly am a hero of the industry.


 
*reads mind* they were not for the 3DS.


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## pasc (Aug 7, 2013)

DELETE ME


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## chrisrlink (Aug 7, 2013)

I can think of worse things with harsher punishment but still a $1mil fine it says warning piracy is illegal and may result i think a $15,000 fine so companies like nintendo should play by the rules as well


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## FAST6191 (Aug 7, 2013)

chrisrlink said:


> well it depends if you pirate say Pokemon black 2(which is a recent release) then yes it douse hurt them but say you pirate er Duck Hunt they lose nothing cause that game isn't even carried new (I hope not thats some old tech)



Copyright lasts for decades, they often do release said old games on new consoles and there is nothing theoretically stopping them from rereleasing the old game.

Indeed rerelease it then would probably be one of the things I would say to those moaning about second hand sales.


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## DS1 (Aug 7, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Copyright lasts for decades, they often do release said old games on new consoles and there is nothing theoretically stopping them from rereleasing the old game.
> 
> Indeed rerelease it then would probably be one of the things I would say to those moaning about second hand sales.


 

True, and when you rerelease old stuff, don't make it some super Nintendo-clubhouse funzone platinum secret special! I will pirate the everloving crap out of your garbage if you restrict me from actually paying for it!!!


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## Slamicite (Aug 7, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Right. Copying and using something without the explicit permission of the owner of said item isn't stealing. It's just being a dick.
> 
> The reasons for piracy you listed above do not justify a crime.
> Being too poor to buy a video game does not justify acquiring it illegally.
> ...


 
Yes, that really is right.

How not?
How not? 
How not?
How not?

The law once enforced racial segregation. The law today enforces that many religions be deprived of rights in some nations. An example that is much closer to your lifestyle is the legality of certain drugs.
Laws are a practical application of ethics that change with time. If something does not harm anybody and is perfectly moral, laws should change, not ethics. If you just sit there and accept law as the ultimate morals, companies will lobby to death to get whatever laws they want implemented and you won't protest because it's against the law. I expect you to understand that we are discussing morality, and law is obvious enough for both of us to know. So, if you want to tell me to feel ashamed, elaborate on why piracy is not ethical instead of telling what we all already know. How about answering my previous post? You know, about 'piracy' harming no one and everything else I said. Did you read that? Do you want me to put it in bullet points?

Since you seem to be into dubious rewording and using assertions as facts against things I never said, let me show how it would be in a world where cracking your fingers is not permissible:
The reasons for cracking your fingers you listed above do not justify a crime. _It's ILLEGAL!_
You can go wild, just replace 'piracy' with anything.


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## EzekielRage (Aug 7, 2013)

The main difference is that I can pirate a game before it is released but i have to wait until a game is even available used. So those first two to three crucial weeks fo a new game release are compromised by pirating more than by used game sales because for a used game to be around somebody had to buy it new...


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 7, 2013)

Slamicite said:


> Yes, that really is right.
> 
> How not?*You are not entitled to play every video game that is released. You are not entitled to listen to every song that is written. You are not entitled to see every movie that is filmed. You are not entitled to read every book that is published.*
> How not? *You are not entitled to play every video game that is released. You are not entitled to listen to every song that is written. You are not entitled to see every movie that is filmed. You are not entitled to read every book that is published.*
> ...


 
You are a very confused person.

Who stated that we are discussing morality? If you'd like to discuss morality then how about..."When you illegally download a game without the permission of the creator and without compensating the creator, you are essentially telling the creator that their hardwork and effort is not worth the time it would take to acquire the necessary funds for a legitimate purchase."
To which a likely response might be, "Well, the developer's employees receive their paychecks regardless"
To which my answer might look something like, "And how many more jobs might be created (with the dev or elsewhere in the economy if purchased pre-owned) if everyone who played the game actually paid for it? How much more secure would a designer's job be if there wasn't a percentage of their userbase who stole illegally copied their blood, sweat, and tears?"
There's no such thing as a victimless crime.

You talk about morality? Since when is "acquiring" something illegally without compensating the owner morally right?



> An example that is much closer to your lifestyle is the legality of certain drugs.


My lifestyle? Joo don't even know me. My body's a temple motherfucker... Ain't no questionably legal drugs going into it...


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## the_randomizer (Aug 7, 2013)

The thing is, yes, we can agree that many of the original owners of these old games do not get compensated at all, but the fact remains that they're still copyrighted. Whether or not anyone benefits from it is moot. That being said, some people will always pirate, others will not. It doesn't help that there are so many vague laws about copyright.


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## Slamicite (Aug 7, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> If you'd like to discuss morality then how about..."When you illegally download a game without the permission of the creator and without compensating the creator, you are essentially telling the creator that their hardwork and effort is not worth the time it would take to acquire the necessary funds for a legitimate purchase."


 
Or you are essentially telling the creator that you don't have the money. Funds are not linearly obtained out of time.


wrettcaughn said:


> To which a likely response might be, "Well, the developer's employees receive their paychecks regardless"
> To which my answer might look something like, "And how many more jobs might be created (with the dev or elsewhere in the economy if purchased pre-owned) if everyone who played the game actually paid for it? How much more secure would a designer's job be if there wasn't a percentage of their userbase who stole illegally copied their blood, sweat, and tears?"


Everybody is able to 'pirate', people still buy games they like when they can. In a simplistic way, it's like you'd buy what you like the most, so that you give money to those who really put their blood, sweat and tears into their work rather than randomly to what you thought of at the time, which could as well be Imagine: Party Babyz.

Economy growth works like this:
capital is gathered -> people buy things -> economy gets stronger -> capital is gathered...
Said economy has been weak for a while now, and is likely to get worse as more and more jobs become obsolete. As you mentioned yourself, it's just a hobby, so it relies on the welfare of the more vital sectors, where most consumers work at, for enough money to be gathered. You are presuming it would be possible that everyone who illegally plays a game would otherwise pay for it, when it is not. 


wrettcaughn said:


> There's no such thing as a victimless crime.


 
A victim implies that said entity is suffering some sort of damage, which is not the case.


wrettcaughn said:


> My lifestyle? Joo don't even know me. My body's a temple motherfucker... Ain't no questionably legal drugs going into it...


 
Oops, that came out horrendously. Sorry, I meant more like familiar to you due to the time and place where you live.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 8, 2013)

Slamicite said:


> Or you are essentially telling the creator that you don't have the money. Funds are not linearly obtained out of time.
> 
> Everybody is able to 'pirate', people still buy games they like when they can. In a simplistic way, it's like you'd buy what you like the most, so that you give money to those who really put their blood, sweat and tears into their work rather than randomly to what you thought of at the time, which could as well be Imagine: Party Babyz.
> 
> ...


I think where we're getting lost here is that you seem to think that people should be able to play whatever videogames they want without having to pay for them. Where I very much disagree. You are not entitled to have something simply because you want it. That goes for anything, not just videogames. Your entire argument hinges on this "moral gray area" around copyright infringment that doesn't actually exist. And you treat the laws that protect IP as if they're oppressive in some way... Believe it or not, it is "morally right" to pay someone for their work.

As far as "trying out the product before committing to a purchase"...it's your responsibility as a consumer to know what you're buying with your money.




> A victim implies that said entity is suffering some sort of damage, which is not the case.


Your response implies that devs/publishers incur absolutely no damage form piracy, which is not only impossible to finitely determine, but also extremely unlikely... You can't seriously believe that every person who pirates a game would have totally neglected it otherwise...




> Oops, that came out horrendously. Sorry, I meant more like familiar to you due to the time and place where you live.


lol... I figured as much; was just messing around 


As far as used game companies, they are within their full, legal rights to resell games as the IP owner has already been compensated for that copy of that game.


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## Lestworth (Aug 8, 2013)

This is rather easy, Piracy has a much higher detriment to the companies then people who buy used games.

Typically a pirate will download a copy of a game thats not that good, or just stupid, just to play it for an hr or 2, thats fine. They NEVER had the intention of actually purchasing the game. HOWEVER when said pirate downloads a semi new AAA title, or highly anticipated title, then they are hurting the publishers and creators.

Buying a used game, is purchasing a game, that was already bought during its release / near release. To say that you should buy games brand new at full price a year later on a game, when you could save money in this horrid economy is crazy. Its why people purchase used cars more often then buying a brand new car. You get a used car, have it around for about 8yrs, and you spend 1-5k on it, rather then spending 20k+ (us).

If your theory is people who purchase used games are monsters, then your theory also applies to everything bought used; Clothes, cars, appliances, houses, sporting goods, ect ect ect ect.


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## Shanester (Aug 8, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> This again?


 
Could you please link me to the other thread that pits piracy and used game markets? Thanks.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 8, 2013)

Shanester said:


> Could you please link me to the other thread that pits piracy and used game markets? Thanks.


Lol... There's been at least 100 or so since I joined the site...


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## Shanester (Aug 8, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Lol... There's been at least 100 or so since I joined the site...


 
I can't seem to find any. I've seen a few posts in general piracy discussions, but not a thread devoted to it. It doesn't really matter; if people don't want to post they don't have to.


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## Slamicite (Aug 8, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> I think where we're getting lost here is that you seem to think that people should be able to play whatever videogames they want without having to pay for them. Where I very much disagree. You are not entitled to have something simply because you want it. That goes for anything, not just videogames.


And my opinion on this point is, as long as there is no one losing anything, what is the problem?


wrettcaughn said:


> As far as "trying out the product before committing to a purchase"...it's your responsibility as a consumer to know what you're buying with your money.


 
Not much trying it out before buying it, but buying what you like best.


wrettcaughn said:


> And you treat the laws that protect IP as if they're oppressive in some way... Believe it or not, it is "morally right" to pay someone for their work.


 
They are. As far as piracy is concerned, though, there are only a few problems, namely how works can last forever, even centuries after their creators are dead, and how licenses work.
It is. The question is whether the opposite is not when there is no damage.


wrettcaughn said:


> Your response implies that devs/publishers incur absolutely no damage form piracy, which is not only impossible to finitely determine, but also extremely unlikely... You can't seriously believe that every person who pirates a game would have totally neglected it otherwise...


 
There are people who just get it just because they can, that's indefensible. I don't know any way to measure those but as I've said, if there were that many, current games wouldn't be selling at all.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 8, 2013)

Slamicite said:


> There are people who just get it just because they can, that's indefensible. I don't know any way to measure those but as I've said, if there were that many, current games wouldn't be selling at all.


That's a pretty extreme opinion to have...  You're saying that if _anyone_ was pirating new games, new games wouldn't be selling _at all_?  Is it not possible that we're talking about maybe 2%-3% of gamers who pirate everything?  While 2%-3% might seem minuscule...that is a lot of money in a multi-billion dollar a year industry.  A lot of potential jobs.  A lot of potential sales gone down the tubes.

So many people on this site seem to think that the majority of pirates only pirate games they wouldn't buy or that they go back and pay for the ones they like.  That's a pipe dream.  Just because someone says something on this site or in a survey, that doesn't make it true.  How can anyone post claiming that piracy is victimless and morally "OK", and then expect readers to believe they don't always do it or that they're so virtuous in their abuse of the law?


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## trumpet-205 (Aug 8, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> So many people on this site seem to think that the majority of pirates only pirate games they wouldn't buy or that they go back and pay for the ones they like. That's a pipe dream. Just because someone says something on this site or in a survey, that doesn't make it true. How can anyone post claiming that piracy is victimless and morally "OK", and then expect readers to believe they don't always do it or that they're so virtuous in their abuse of the law?


Feel free to prove us wrong with factual proof. You can find many surveys on whether people will buy legitimate copy if piracy is not an option.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 8, 2013)

trumpet-205 said:


> Feel free to prove us wrong with factual proof. You can find many surveys on whether people will buy legitimate copy if piracy is not an option.


Because surveys are accurate.
Because pirates don't want to justify piracy.
Because people don't want to appear more virtuous than they actually are.
But you could always feel free to prove yourself right with _factual_ proof.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 8, 2013)

People need to stop blaming used games for everything including cancer, there is nothing wrong with buying used games.

The previous owner of the game has paid the developers _for that particular copy of the software _and then _forfeited his right to use it, bestowing it upon the future user_. There is absolutely no reason why the developers should be paid _twice_ for the same copy of the game and even so they already sort of are because of Network Passes and other crap they throw in the user's face in order to justify squeezing some more money out of his/her wallet.

In this regard, a used game is just like any other used goods - you don't pay BMW if you buy a used BMW car, why should you pay EA for buying a used EA game? _All_ the license states is the number of simultaneous users of a given piece of software _and that number does not increase_ - one user _stops_ using the game and another _starts_ so all is well.

Piracy on the other hand is obtaining a copy _without_ paying any contribution whatsoever and using it _without_ having a license allowing you to do so.

I'm pretty sure it's clear which one of those is bad and which one isn't.


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## The Real Jdbye (Aug 8, 2013)

Used game stores for sure. Not used games in general, just stores like GameStop that make a huge profit by ripping off people, buying their games for next to nothing and reselling them with up to 1000% profit.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 8, 2013)

The Real Jdbye said:


> Used game stores for sure. Not used games in general, just stores like GameStop that make a huge profit by ripping off people, buying their games for next to nothing and reselling them with up to 1000% profit.


Normally I would take the 1000% as literal but that is not really worth it. Is not the argument "if you do not like the prices then do not deal there" and/or "middlemen tend to cost, they do have their benefits though".


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## FireGrey (Aug 8, 2013)

Used games are more popular and those who buy used games are more potential customers for them, since someone willing to pay money for something is more likely to pay for it in full, pirates are less potential customers.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 8, 2013)

The Real Jdbye said:


> Used game stores for sure. Not used games in general, just stores like GameStop that make a huge profit by ripping off people, buying their games for next to nothing and reselling them with up to 1000% profit.


Good luck having to deal with eBay sellers for each and every game you want to buy instead of just walking into a shop and buying a game like most people do.

You get your games cheaper than the new copies, the discs are well-maintained _(unlike the users who toss their discs around and scratch them, Gamestop and other such stores have machinery to keep those nasty scratches away)_, the store model gives you a selection of titles to choose from without having to browse too much and that's what you're paying for - the electricity bill, taxes, wages for personel and the rent don't pay themselves y'know.


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## EzekielRage (Aug 8, 2013)

I laugh at the hyprocrite pirates who justify their shit by saying used games are worse than piracy. SMH


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## FAST6191 (Aug 8, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> Used games are more popular and those who buy used games are more potential customers for them, since someone willing to pay money for something is more likely to pay for it in full, pirates are less potential customers.



There are various schools of thought that might say maybe not there.

However, and hopefully I have not gone into strawman territory, much of that could be similar to saying "they should target millionaires as they have more disposable income".


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## The Real Jdbye (Aug 8, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Normally I would take the 1000% as literal but that is not really worth it. Is not the argument "if you do not like the prices then do not deal there" and/or "middlemen tend to cost, they do have their benefits though".


That's true, but they can't be avoided completely. In my city they are the only store that have certain games, and they always get games at launch day unlike the other stores.
It's not just their pricing that's the problem either, but how inconsistent it is. They sell some used games for cheap, and others at almost new price.
I completely understand that they need to make profit from their used game sales, but their profit margin is insane. I'm surprised people bother to sell their games there, but I guess they're all as lazy as me.



Foxi4 said:


> Good luck having to deal with eBay sellers for each and every game you want to buy instead of just walking into a shop and buying a game like most people do.
> 
> You get your games cheaper than the new copies, the discs are well-maintained _(unlike the users who toss their discs around and scratch them, Gamestop and other such stores have machinery to keep those nasty scratches away)_, the store model gives you a selection of titles to choose from without having to browse too much and that's what you're paying for - the electricity bill, taxes, wages for personel and the rent don't pay themselves y'know.


Well buying used games there isn't the main problem. It's getting rid of your old games and getting basically nothing in return that is.
But the same thing applies with dealing with eBay. Selling stuff online is such a hassle, I tend to either keep my games or give them to gamestop.
It's true that they have a lot of things to pay for that eBay sellers don't, however they are selling new games too - they could still make a good profit if their used games weren't priced as high (and they actually gave you a reasonable price when you sell games), and I think a lot of that money is going right into the pockets of the owners. The profit margin is just insane.

Buying games online is honestly not a big hassle in my opinion. It's more convenient to browse products on a website, and you most likely get better prices. Selling them is a different story, you have to deal with providing correct shipping prices to the customer, tax information to the tax office, packing and shipping things. If selling things online was more convenient, GameStop wouldn't be doing as well with used game sales as they are.
In fact, browsing the used games at GameStop is very inconvenient, they are just piled onto the shelves and there are many copies of certain games and actually finding the one you want/finding one that looks interesting would require being there for a long time searching through everything. On eBay you can just use the search function.

I'm not so sure about the discs being well maintained though; I've seen youtube videos about discs from gamestop that were badly scratched. If the scratches are bad enough before GameStop buy the game, there is not much they can do to buff the scratches away (which is essentially what those machines do). You can do the same thing by hand (using toothpaste, if i remember correctly) but if the scratches are deep enough you won't be able to get rid of them. I'm sure the machines do a better job at it but they're not magic.
Then again I suppose gamestop wouldn't accept discs if they're too badly scratched. But it's a good idea to check the disc before you buy a used game/movie anyway, no matter where you're buying it from. If you're buying it from eBay, avoid sellers that have very scratched discs, it's not hard.


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## trumpet-205 (Aug 8, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> The previous owner of the game has paid the developers _for that particular copy of the software _and then _forfeited his right to use it, bestowing it upon the future user_. There is absolutely no reason why the developers should be paid _twice_ for the same copy of the game and even so they already sort of are because of Network Passes and other crap they throw in the user's face in order to justify squeezing some more money out of his/her wallet.


Developers have already being paid when they signed the contract with publisher. It is publisher who are against used and rental market. When you buy something the money goes to the publisher. The only reason used market and rental market (including public library) exist is because of First Sale Doctrine or similar law. Without it, you cannot resale or rent your intellectual copy with explicit permission from the publisher.

If you do a little digging you'll see that a lot of publisher or distributor challenge these laws from time to time. The entire entertainment industries viewed First Sale Doctrine as a slippery slope. Why do you think Microsoft wants to implement restrictions on used discs?

*It is NOT the consumers who are against used market, it is the industry that thinks used market is doing harm.*


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## FAST6191 (Aug 8, 2013)

The Real Jdbye said:


> That's true, but they can't be avoided completely. In my city they are the only store that have certain games, and they always get games at launch day unlike the other stores.
> It's not just their pricing that's the problem either, but how inconsistent it is. They sell some used games for cheap, and others at almost new price.
> I completely understand that they need to make profit from their used game sales,* but their profit margin is insane*. I'm surprised people bother to sell their games there, but I guess they're all as lazy as me.


The related pithy phrase that I will go to in these conversations is "something is only worth what someone will pay for it" and it seems somewhat apt at this point in time.
I am not quite sure what to say to the rest though



trumpet-205 said:


> [stuff and rental games]



I do have to note rental is an somewhat separate area of law in a lot of places -- setting up a second hand games shop is as easy as registering as a business wherever you happen to be and maybe dealing with whatever pawn shop type laws might apply. You need to actually be licensed to rent games/buy rental versions of games.


trumpet-205 said:


> *It is NOT the consumers who are against used market, it is the industry that thinks used market is doing harm.*



Going by this thread and others it seems the publishers and such like have actually hoodwinked people into believing that it is a bad thing. I recall seeing the first forays a few years back and laughing at them... another demonstration that I am no good at guessing what people will believe I guess.


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## EzekielRage (Aug 8, 2013)

In the end it is a free market decision VS copyright infrindgement.

A pirate takes something that does not belong to him. the original is still there yet he wants a service without paying for it which is against the free market.
a used game buyer is involved in the free market since he is paying for the serveice he gets. who gets that money is up to the competition, in that case gamestop vs the publishers. if gamestop has a better service i.e. price than the publisher as the competition, than gamestop wins. so it should be up to the publisher to make sure people get a service they want to pay for that means a one time download code for a dlc pack as is common ro just price the game lower so that i am not asking for a cheaper game.

so by this logic the pirate is a greedy asshole who doesnt give a shit about fairness and whats right and wrong and somebody who buys used is a pragmatic person who cares about right and wrong and figures a steep price is wrong to pay if i get the same service for a better price. i wont be bullied by publishers after all.

saying that nobody is harmed when you download a game just shows how dumb you are. saying that is not stealing because the original is still there shows how little understanding you have. by that logic i can fuck your girlfriend. she is still there after all i just fucked her but you can still also have her. a very sexist approach to this but probably you people better understand it?


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 8, 2013)

I buy a brand new game @ $60 and want to sell it...
-  I could put game on eBay/Craigslist and someone would likely pay $50 for it with no warranty after taking the time to list it and wait for someone to make an offer or buy...
-  I could go the convenience route and trade it in at GameStop (or any other game shop that takes trades) and get an instant return (anywhere from $20-$35 dollars worth of credit depending on the game) that while amounts to less money, also saves me from listing/waiting, covers employee wages, pays to keep the store open, and provides the store revenue for the service they've provided.

On the other side of the transaction, I can purchase a used game and get with it a warranty that allows me to *return the game for a full refund within 7 days of purchase and not even have to give a reason*.  For those people who want to "try a game before you buy it" you can basically play the game for a week (possibly even complete it in that time) and then get all of your "collateral" back...

But, yeah...  GameStop is the devil and all that tripe...


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## the_randomizer (Aug 8, 2013)

Again, while used sales don't give the original developers any revenue (admit it, the only real people who get money are second-hand retailers), the fact remains the games copyrights typically last 75 years, so whether people are against it for legal or moral reasons, people will always pirate, plain and simple.  And yet on the other hand, publishers complain that used games are just as bad as piracy, which I don't agree with at all solely based on the fact that the games are still in circulation (even if it's a finite no. of copies of said game).  I don't agree with over-inflation for used games, so if I ever get a used game, I know where I'm going to get it for the cheapest price.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 8, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Again, while used sales don't give the original developers any revenue (*admit it, the only real people who get money are second-hand retailers*)



Did anybody ever doubt that? Indeed my usual counter is "if you want to be entitled to money from second hand games then invest in a second hand games shop that provides a dividend or offer a similar service".


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## the_randomizer (Aug 8, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Did anybody ever doubt that? Indeed my usual counter is "if you want to be entitled to money from second hand games then invest in a second hand games shop that provides a dividend or offer a similar service".


 
Sorry, wasn't trying to argue and what I said came out wrong. It's just the whole mentality of used games being lumped together as piracy is a spurious argument.  If places like Gamestop bother me, I have alternate places to get games


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## Foxi4 (Aug 8, 2013)

trumpet-205 said:


> *It is NOT the consumers who are against used market, it is the industry that thinks used market is doing harm.*


 
Oh, I know what you mean. The problem is that people began _"buying"_ this _"sad story about the poor developers who can barely meet ends because of the evil Gamestop people"_ and that's just insane.

I fully support buying games new when you want to support the developers of a given title - please do that if you can. If you prefer value prices though and don't mind the fact that the game was previously used, _don't_ feel bad about buying used games because the contribution for those copies was already made.


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