# Following the controversy of Shenmue III becoming an Epic exclusive, backers can now get refunds



## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.


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## Bladexdsl (Jul 2, 2019)

guaranteed 90% refunded


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## Godofcheese (Jul 2, 2019)

Yep, refund for me.


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## KingVamp (Jul 2, 2019)

I like how they are still trying to shove the Epic Store on you, but at least you will still get your Steam key. Should have done it this way in the first place. Much less messed up and would have been much less backlash. 

Let's just hope they don't pull a fast one again. lol


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## MarkDarkness (Jul 2, 2019)

More games for my "to pirate" list! Has been a few years since I've done PC piracy... thanks Epic for keeping the flame alive!


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 2, 2019)

A one year timed exclusive. Yeah, that's the way to do it... Dear lord I thought we were making progress. Nope. Refunds are good, though.


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## Techjunky90 (Jul 2, 2019)

Crowd funding for games is idiotic to begin with.


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## SkittleDash (Jul 2, 2019)

I'm glad people are getting their refunds. People were promised a Steam release on launch. I think people have every reason to back out of this if that promise was broken.


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## linuxares (Jul 2, 2019)

Techjunky90 said:


> Crowd funding for games is idiotic to begin with.


Some games would never came to live if it wasn't for crowdfunding.


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## Deleted User (Jul 2, 2019)

i m happy i didnt pre order it ... else i d be on the refund list too!


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 2, 2019)

Techjunky90 said:


> Crowd funding for games is idiotic to begin with.


Eh, depends on the game I guess? When you have a big name looking to crowd fund a game like.. Oh, I don't know... Shenmue 3, it's kind of pathetic. However, smaller dev teams aren't always in with bigger publishers who can fund their games..


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## eyeliner (Jul 2, 2019)

So? The Shenmue games are bad, anyway. The success of the previous entries have proven that people don't care for it.

Yu laughed at you.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

SkittleDash said:


> I'm glad people are getting their refunds. People were promised a Steam release on launch. I think people have every reason to back out of this if that promise was broken.


Them promising multiplayer and backing out. Sure offer refunds as some kind of good will gesture if you want/can as that is a fundamental shift in offerings. From a technical sense you are some kind of investor so "this is why you never invest what you can't afford to lose" is in full force but hey.
Them making people use an alternative free launcher on an identical system for the same game (or indeed potentially better if it the deal resulted in some assistance with dev)... not seeing the need.



Techjunky90 said:


> Crowd funding for games is idiotic to begin with.



Why? People club together to make projects, purchases and more happen that would otherwise take a lot of finance all the time. Why would it not be an option for games or inherently flawed for use in games? I have many problems with the amounts asked for vs the timeframes and results expected to be achieved but as a general concept there are more than enough people interested in games to fund the development of games if they all club together.


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## guitarheroknight (Jul 2, 2019)

I'm actually glad it's an Epic Store exclusive. Steam has gotten way to greedy to begin with.


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## diggeloid (Jul 2, 2019)

Getting a physical disk for PC is actually pretty awesome. Anyone know if it's just an unlabeled disc in a sleeve, or a proper disk with box art and everything?


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## Godofcheese (Jul 2, 2019)

guitarheroknight said:


> I'm actually glad it's an Epic Store exclusive. Steam has gotten way to greedy to begin with.



Greedy? 
In what way 

Consoles takes the same cut as them.


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## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.


A lot of backers invested into the game out of reasonable trust for Steam, only for developers to switch to a vastly inferior and less user-friendly distribution service - it's only logical that a good amount of them want their money back, since that's just not something they were bargaining for. I do think the whole backlash was rather nerdy and not very constructive (stuff like metabombing or silly temper tantrums), but I would be pissed about it if I was a backer.


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## Bimmel (Jul 2, 2019)

Refund. I regret backing this project.


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## Idontknowwhattoputhere (Jul 2, 2019)

Just pirate this game
Waste of money
fuck deep silvet


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> A lot of backers invested into the game out of reasonable trust for Steam, only for developers to switch to a vastly inferior and less user-friendly distribution service - it's only logical that a good amount of them want their money back, since that's just not something they were bargaining for. I do think the whole backlash was rather nerdy and not very constructive (stuff like metabombing or silly temper tantrums), but I would be pissed about it if I was a backer.


What kind of quality control does Steam/Valve in the modern world enforce? In the dim and distant past then maybe the thinnest veneer of it but that went with greenlight.

As for vastly inferior then not especially seeing it. The games work and download, and it mostly gets out of the way. Anything more than that is surely a perk. It seems so minor and frivolous a change that being upset about it seems bizarre.


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## DarkKaine (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> What kind of quality control does Steam/Valve in the modern world enforce? In the dim and distant past then maybe the thinnest veneer of it but that went with greenlight.
> 
> As for vastly inferior then not especially seeing it. The games work and download, and it mostly gets out of the way. Anything more than that is surely a perk. It seems so minor and frivolous a change that being upset about it seems bizarre.


That's besides the point. People don't want this shit running on their computers that's all. One bloatware app is enough and we certainly don't want to encourage exclusivity on PC. If the game completely bombs as a result then so be it. Of course we want to play the game but at the same time we want to make a statement. Either we get the game on steam or on the pirate bay.


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## jacksprat1990 (Jul 2, 2019)

So can someone explain the hate for Epic's service over Steam? I understand some people getting a refund because they paid for Steam key but why are some people so against using a different launcher?


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## r5xscn (Jul 2, 2019)

jacksprat1990 said:


> So can someone explain the hate for Epic's service over Steam? I understand some people getting a refund because they paid for Steam key but why are some people so against using a different launcher?


Its because Fortnite bad, Minecraft good. Jk. I heard its because epic tried to make all games exclusive to its platform.


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## RedoLane (Jul 2, 2019)

Got my money back. Such a shame..


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## Armadillo (Jul 2, 2019)

jacksprat1990 said:


> So can someone explain the hate for Epic's service over Steam? I understand some people getting a refund because they paid for Steam key but why are some people so against using a different launcher?



Barebones launcher. 

Steam has a ton of features, that a lot of people like. Being forced to switch to a inferior launcher, doesn't go down well. Not every one cares about the features, to some it is "just a launcher", but those people aren't the ones complaining.


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## ut2k4master (Jul 2, 2019)

diggeloid said:


> Getting a physical disk for PC is actually pretty awesome. Anyone know if it's just an unlabeled disc in a sleeve, or a proper disk with box art and everything?


proper disc with boxart and everything, BUT the disc only contains an installer for the epic client, NOT the game


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## the_randomizer (Jul 2, 2019)

Wake me up when Epic has a shopping cart. What kind of lame-ass storefront doesn't have a shopping cart in 2019?


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

the_randomizer said:


> Wake me up when Epic has a shopping cart. What kind of lame-ass storefront doesn't have a shopping cart in 2019?


Presumably one wherein people don't typically buy 50 things at once.


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## the_randomizer (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Presumably one wherein people don't typically buy 50 things at once.



That's moot, shopping carts are a rudiment, not having one is dumb af


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## Godofcheese (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Presumably one wherein people don't typically buy 50 things at once.



You also get suspended / banned if you buy too many games in rapid succession


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## D34DL1N3R (Jul 2, 2019)

Anyone else sick of people crying about the Epic Store? Guess what the solution is, install it and quit crying. Problems solved. Do these people buy EVERYTHING they own and have EVER owned from the exact same single store? So you have to buy your PC games from more than one place now. Big deal. Get over it.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

the_randomizer said:


> That's moot, shopping carts are a rudiment, not having one is dumb af


So you say. I can see a scenario wherein it is not that useful and the cost of having it outweighs not. I can't say I would say lose the feature should they implement it but at the same time if you are buying more than 3 games in a sitting and it is not a bundle then you are probably an edge case.



Godofcheese said:


> You also get suspended / banned if you buy too many games in rapid succession


Hopefully they correct their overzealous fraud detection or implement a better system.



DarkKaine said:


> That's besides the point. People don't want this shit running on their computers that's all. One bloatware app is enough and we certainly don't want to encourage exclusivity on PC. If the game completely bombs as a result then so be it. Of course we want to play the game but at the same time we want to make a statement. Either we get the game on steam or on the pirate bay.


The post I quoted initially said it was trust for Steam. I don't however know what Steam offers here in all that -- they still allow endless amounts of badly coded and unoptimised dross to appear on their platform. Similarly other than Epic contracts seeing some devs shelve Linux and OSX plans then I am not seeing it be exclusivity in the same way it has been understood for years, or if it is then any different to what Steam does.


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## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> What kind of quality control does Steam/Valve in the modern world enforce? In the dim and distant past then maybe the thinnest veneer of it but that went with greenlight.
> 
> As for vastly inferior then not especially seeing it. The games work and download, and it mostly gets out of the way. Anything more than that is surely a perk. It seems so minor and frivolous a change that being upset about it seems bizarre.


Better optimization, dedicated community forums, well-implemented GUI, stuff like direct streaming or Linux compatibility tool out of the box, better tech support, and ability to refund your game on the spot if it doesn't run on your machine for some reason. I'm not even going into basic stuff like achievements, or ability to buy multiple games at once. I respect opinions and tastes, but Epic Games Store is so objectively undercooked and bare-boned in comparison at the moment that it's not even a contest - and for some people, having undercooked, inferior frontend is a dealbreaker.


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## Jiehfeng (Jul 2, 2019)

Everyone should refund. Nobody should get Borderlands 3 on Epic store, just these two things should be enough for devs to stop going with exclusivity deals. But nope, you can't get everyone to do the same thing sadly.


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## guitarheroknight (Jul 2, 2019)

Godofcheese said:


> Greedy?
> In what way
> 
> Consoles takes the same cut as them.



Steam takes a bigger cut than Epic from game sales. In the end it doesn't even matter where the game is sold as long as it's good it will sell.


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## kevin corms (Jul 2, 2019)

A few loud valve fanboys.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Pipistrele said:


> A lot of backers invested into the game out of reasonable trust for Steam, only for developers to switch to a vastly inferior and less user-friendly distribution service - it's only logical that a good amount of them want their money back, since that's just not something they were bargaining for. I do think the whole backlash was rather nerdy and not very constructive (stuff like metabombing or silly temper tantrums), but I would be pissed about it if I was a backer.



Its only a few, but people just cant put that into perspective. They see something online and they think its happening everywhere all the time.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Jiehfeng said:


> Everyone should refund. Nobody should get Borderlands 3 on Epic store, just these two things should be enough for devs to stop going with exclusivity deals. But nope, you can't get everyone to do the same thing sadly.


So its ok for valve to have exclusive deals?


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## Godofcheese (Jul 2, 2019)

guitarheroknight said:


> Steam takes a bigger cut than Epic from game sales. In the end it doesn't even matter where the game is sold as long as it's good it will sell.



They take less yes.
Offer less to the costumer too.
And all the extra goes to the publisher, not the developer.


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## Jiehfeng (Jul 2, 2019)

kevin corms said:


> So its ok for valve to have exclusive deals?



The best situation no, but no one would mind. Steam is great.


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## kevin corms (Jul 2, 2019)

Godofcheese said:


> They take less yes.
> Offer less to the costumer too.
> And all the extra goes to the publisher, not the developer.


Epic is adding features as fast as they can, steam was god awful when it started compared to the epic store. You can also easily use steam features on non steam games.


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## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

kevin corms said:


> A few loud valve fanboys.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


There were enough to result in one of the most downvoted trailers of E3, get a lot of coverage from press, attract an official response, and get developers to cave in and offer refunds. Either backlash was legitimate, or those "few loud valve fanboys" really know what they're doing


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## kevin corms (Jul 2, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> There were enough to result in one of the most downvoted trailers of E3, get a lot of coverage from press, attract an official response, and get developers to cave in and offer refunds. Either backlash was legitimate, or those "few loud valve fanboys" really know what they're doing


Its quite common these days for a small group of people to be heard as if they are the majority. Once that small group gets their word out and a few media outlets cover it, the sheep just follow.


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## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

kevin corms said:


> Its quite common these days for a small group of people to be heard as if they are the majority.


That's a fun excuse, if anything else .з.


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## BlastedGuy9905 (Jul 2, 2019)

Sorry, but this is getting ridiculous? Are people actually considering to refund a game they were waiting for because they refuse to install a game launcher (however bad it may be)? Just install it and enjoy the game, fucking hell.


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## Issac (Jul 2, 2019)

Why do people care if it's Epic Game Store exclusive? Well, maybe because this:


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## kevin corms (Jul 2, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> That's a fun excuse, if anything else .з.


Its not an excuse, its reality. Thats why you see so many organizations going woke and then broke, media just reports what they see some twitter trolls saying as if it means anything.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> Better optimization, dedicated community forums, well-implemented GUI, stuff like direct streaming or Linux compatibility tool out of the box, better tech support, and ability to refund your game on the spot if it doesn't run on your machine for some reason. I'm not even going into basic stuff like achievements, or ability to buy multiple games at once. I respect opinions and tastes, but Epic Games Store is so objectively undercooked and bare-boned in comparison at the moment that it's not even a contest - and for some people, having undercooked, inferior frontend is a dealbreaker.


In this instance is Epic not offering assistance with the game?
I try not to farm my support out to third parties here and forums are trivial to install and run.
Does it matter when you press start - game name/company name - game?
The linux stuff is a different matter and streaming is an OS level thing.
Tech support for the games themselves or just for Steam?
Does that apply in the case of a crowdfunded game?


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## Godofcheese (Jul 2, 2019)

kevin corms said:


> Epic is adding features as fast as they can, steam was god awful when it started compared to the epic store. You can also easily use steam features on non steam games.



Was a long time since I heard anything about Epics roadmap regarding features.
Their focus atm still seems to be getting more exclusives.


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## kevin corms (Jul 2, 2019)

Godofcheese said:


> Was a long time since I heard anything about Epics roadmap regarding features.
> Their focus atm still seems to be getting more exclusives.


It hasnt been long since Ive heard of it, and its not like features just magically appear... it has to be worked on and tested. I think their store is functional enough to exist for now, but I expect more features in the long term.


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## KingVamp (Jul 2, 2019)

I'm sure some people are just mad that they are being forced to use yet another launcher, let alone if it is inferior or not. 



kevin corms said:


> Its quite common these days for a small group of people to be heard as if they are the majority. Once that small group gets their word out and a few media outlets cover it, the sheep just follow.


How can you tell if this is the case? How can you tell the difference and, in this case, why does it matter how many people are mad about this?


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## Glyptofane (Jul 2, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Anyone else sick of people crying about the Epic Store? Guess what the solution is, install it and quit crying. Problems solved. Do these people buy EVERYTHING they own and have EVER owned from the exact same single store? So you have to buy your PC games from more than one place now. Big deal. Get over it.


I've already missed out on too many free games to just cave now.


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## Darksabre72 (Jul 2, 2019)

SkittleDash said:


> I'm glad people are getting their refunds. People were promised a Steam release on launch. I think people have every reason to back out of this if that promise was broken.





guitarheroknight said:


> I'm actually glad it's an Epic Store exclusive. Steam has gotten way to greedy to begin with.





Bimmel said:


> Refund. I regret backing this project.


well now it's an year of an epic exclusive lol


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## FANDROID_SWIMBOIS (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.


Disagreed with your ideals!  When are you gonna realize that there is other opinions than yours?  I don't know how many game launcher tropics I've seen you post where you've had kep'd spreading, belief of all launcher terrible and shouldnt exist, but how many frickn controverts is it gonna be for you to undrestand that there are people who care about the?


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## Shadowfied (Jul 2, 2019)

guitarheroknight said:


> Steam takes a bigger cut than Epic from game sales. In the end it doesn't even matter where the game is sold as long as it's good it will sell.


How does that mean "they've *gotten* greedy"? They've always used the industry split, which again, is the same for consoles and retail.


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## NeoSlyde (Jul 2, 2019)

I’m outta here.


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## XDel (Jul 2, 2019)

Ohhh man, I'm glad I'm not invested into this series else I'd be pissed!!!


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## Armadillo (Jul 2, 2019)

Shadowfied said:


> How does that mean "they've *gotten* greedy"? They've always used the industry split, which again, is the same for consoles and retail.



Because that's the narrative that Sweeny has been pushing and so has the gaming media.

Always big bad greedy Valve and their standard 30% and our saviours Epic, with their 12% and "competition".

Always ignore that it's not about %, it's about not being on Steam and % cut is just a stick to beat Steam with. Look at Metro, look at Outer Worlds, both coming to Windows/Xbox store, same cut as Steam, no outrage from Tim Sweeny or the media for that.

Also always forget that because of Epics 12% there is a payment processor fee for certain payment methods, a fee that other stores don't have. Media forget to mention that as well, either that or just don't care because it mostly affects regions that aren't the USA or Western Europe.


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## Shadowfied (Jul 2, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> Because that's the narrative that Sweeny has been pushing and so has the gaming media.
> 
> Always big bad greedy Valve and their standard 30% and our saviours Epic, with their 12% and "competition".
> 
> ...


Well said. It's funny how naive people are to think a company like Epic are doing this FOR THE USERS in the end. Or even for the developers. Not to mention the naivety of developers and publishers who can't look past their own dick and think the instant cash bag is worth more than their brand, their fanbase and just having a healthy community.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

FANDROID_SWIMBOIS said:


> Disagreed with your ideals!  When are you gonna realize that there is other opinions than yours?  I don't know how many game launcher tropics I've seen you post where you've had kep'd spreading, belief of all launcher terrible and shouldnt exist, but how many frickn controverts is it gonna be for you to undrestand that there are people who care about the?



Not sure where you are coming from there. I am quite aware that there are people with different opinions than my own, such a thing being the nature of discussion/debate which I have been doing for a while now.
I never said all launchers are terrible and should not exist. I was happy prior to their invention, or perhaps Steam's ascension, but if someone is going to give me the same abilities as I have with physical games (that being easy resale and consequently no surprise cutoff in the future) then I am quite OK for such things to exist. I am similarly aware of people harbouring a concern about one launcher or another (the topics you have seen me in I was presumably posting in and can also state I have not yet suffered amnesia), however, as stated in the post you quoted, I am at a loss why emotions are so strong here and seeking reasons (preferably ones that hold water) as to why.




Shadowfied said:


> Not to mention the naivety of developers and publishers who can't look past their own dick and think the instant cash bag is worth more than their brand, their fanbase and just having a healthy community.


Is that an Epic problem or a creative industry wide problem, games possibly being more prone than some other things? That said other than snubbing the linux and osx peeps at present how does being on epic launcher prevent a healthy community, disrupt the fanbase or diminish their brand (give or take less visibility to casual browsers)?


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## Armadillo (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> , I am at a loss why emotions are so strong here and seeking reasons (preferably ones that hold water) as to why.



And people give you reasons. Topic after topic on Epic, here you are "just asking questions" and everytime the result is the same, people give you reasons and you handwave the reasons because they don't matter to you, are a minor issue or you can bodge the same sort of functions together with other software.

Even now, it's reasons "that hold water". So when people come back to you, it'll be back to dismissing everything as not a big deal. 

Then the next topic will come along, we will have the same song and dance and you will be "just asking questions" again and confused as to why people are annoyed.


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## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Does it matter when you press start - game name/company name - game?


I'll answer in short text to avoid bickering, but my definitive answer is yes, it matters a lot. There are completionists who consider achievements a big part of experience, there are content creators who enjoy participating in workshop or community forums, there are slacksters who want to play their things on ceramic throne via direct streaming, etc. The game being EGS exclusive implies that all options above will be unavailable by default, which is quite a dealbreaker for a lot of people who have even slightly higher expectations than "I want to launch this game".


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## Deleted User (Jul 2, 2019)

Imagine being so upset that you have to use a different client to download a single player game that doesn't require the client to be active to play it.

I'm really glad I don't have mental disability that affect me in a way that I would lose my shit over something so pointless in life.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 2, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> And people give you reasons. Topic after topic on Epic, here you are "just asking questions" and everytime the result is the same, people give you reasons and you handwave the reasons because they don't matter to you, are a minor issue or you can bodge the same sort of functions together with other software.
> 
> Even now, it's reasons "that hold water". So when people come back to you, it'll be back to dismissing everything as not a big deal.
> 
> Then the next topic will come along, we will have the same song and dance and you will be "just asking questions" again and confused as to why people are annoyed.


At this point I'm starting to think it's intentional. To get some sort of reaction. Everything has been repeated, clearly. It also seems that every week Sweeney comes back with more toxicity.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



brandonspikes said:


> Imagine being so upset that you have to use a different client to download a single player game that doesn't require the client to active to play it.
> 
> I'm really glad I don't have mental disability that affect me in a way that I would lose my shit over something so pointless in life.


Nice b8 m8 r8 8/8


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## Deleted User (Jul 2, 2019)

Memoir said:


> At this point I'm starting to think it's intentional. To get some sort of reaction. Everything has been repeated, clearly. It also seems that every week Sweeney comes back with more toxicity.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Nice response, wonderful counter to my statement. I'm sure you had to do some deep thinking to write that one up.


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## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

brandonspikes said:


> Imagine being so upset that you have to use a different client to download a single player game that doesn't require the client to active to play it.
> 
> I'm really glad I don't have mental disability that affect me in a way that I would lose my shit over something so pointless in life.


You caring enough to write a snobby "above-it-all" text on the matter is kinda self-defeating =)


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 2, 2019)

brandonspikes said:


> Nice response, wonderful counter to my statement. I'm sure you had to do some deep thinking to write that one up.


Insinuating that anyone who disagrees with Epic's "business decisions" has some sort of mental disability really is a class act. Truly. Your insight is so important to us that it will be framed and hung on the fridge with a gold star.


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## Deleted User (Jul 2, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> You caring enough to write a snobby "above-it-all" text on the matter is kinda self-defeating =)



I just find it amazing that people lose their shit over Epic, then ride steam despite them being a terrible company who doesnt make games anymore, whos sales have been nothing short of awful the past 4 years, and who have abysmal CS despite being as large as they are.

Completely overrated monopoly that people defend and ignore the fact they aren't so great themselves.


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## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

brandonspikes said:


> I just find it amazing that people lose their shit over Epic, then ride steam despite them being a terrible company who doesnt make games anymore, whos sales have been nothing short of awful the past 4 years, and who have abysmal CS despite being as large as they are.
> 
> Completely overrated monopoly that people defend and ignore the fact they aren't so great themselves.


I mean, that's because you visited a thread dedicated to discussion of Epic/Steam stuff. Naturally, people will voice opinions here (some stronger than others). It's like going on political subforum and complaining about everyone being too political.


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## Deleted User (Jul 2, 2019)

Memoir said:


> Insinuating that anyone who disagrees with Epic's "business decisions" has some sort of mental disability really is a class act. Truly. Your insight is so important to us that it will be framed and hung on the fridge with a gold star.



There's a difference between defending Epic, and crying about having to use a launcher to download a single player game that doesn't require it to be open for said game to be launched on.

Problem is, most people don't know this, and think the client has to be opened, and that some chinese company is stealing your gigawatts.

Epic Bad, Steam good, Keanu breathtaking.

Most people can't think for themselves and need to be told what to be outraged over, and that's the problem I have with all of it


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 2, 2019)

brandonspikes said:


> I just find it amazing that people lose their shit over Epic, then ride steam despite them being a terrible company who doesnt make games anymore, whos sales have been nothing short of awful the past 4 years, and who have abysmal CS despite being as large as they are.
> 
> Completely overrated monopoly that people defend and ignore the fact they aren't so great themselves.


Has Steam ever undercut another competitor before? If yes, I assume there's proof? Epic effectively stealing a promised Steam release more than once is only part of the problem. I assume, like Fast, you're dismissing their anti-consumer practices involving their storefront and customer support. Not to mention that STILL they have such a lack of basic security measures to keep your account from being phished just adds to it. Exclusivity is commonplace, and hurts the average consumer. Forcing someone to install another bit of software, or even purchasing dedicated hardware is asinine. Let alone defending the practice. Of course, you wouldn't know that. What with your white knighting and all.

By the way, Epic is far from pro-competition. They're not trying to prevent a monopoly. They are looking to start one. It's insanely obvious. Their bully tactics, fear mongering and numerous jabs at Steam and Steam alone.


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## FANDROID_SWIMBOIS (Jul 2, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> And people give you reasons. Topic after topic on Epic, here you are "just asking questions" and everytime the result is the same, people give you reasons and you handwave the reasons because they don't matter to you, are a minor issue or you can bodge the same sort of functions together with other software.
> 
> Even now, it's reasons "that hold water". So when people come back to you, it'll be back to dismissing everything as not a big deal.
> 
> Then the next topic will come along, we will have the same song and dance and you will be "just asking questions" again and confused as to why people are annoyed.


i like u armadillo. unik response.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> And people give you reasons. Topic after topic on Epic, here you are "just asking questions" and everytime the result is the same, people give you reasons and you handwave the reasons because they don't matter to you, are a minor issue or you can bodge the same sort of functions together with other software.
> 
> Even now, it's reasons "that hold water". So when people come back to you, it'll be back to dismissing everything as not a big deal.
> 
> Then the next topic will come along, we will have the same song and dance and you will be "just asking questions" again and confused as to why people are annoyed.



Thus far they have been things easily dodged though, easily replicated or minor conveniences. Barring Linux and OSX then the same games get made, the same games can be played, the things are loaded just as easily with no extra hardware nor any subscriptions.

I have not seen them turning the screws on the game players, I have not seen them turning the screws on the devs, have not seen malice (their Steam peeking stunt being about as close as that gets). Better yet have seen them fund some devs and offer better cuts than might be offered elsewhere. Don't particularly care for their connection to the Chinese but it ain't like many US tech companies are on my Christmas card list these days either. This mainly leaves me concluding it is some kind of Steam Stockholm syndrome, something I find quite distasteful as Valve seem to have spend a great many years now trying to piss in my face and tell me it is raining.



Pipistrele said:


> I'll answer in short text to avoid bickering, but my definitive answer is yes, it matters a lot. There are completionists who consider achievements a part of experience, there are content creators who enjoy participating in workshop or community forums, there are slacksters who want to play their things on ceramic throne via direct streaming, etc. The game being EGS exclusive implies that all options above will be unavailable by default, which is quite a dealbreaker for a lot of people who have even slightly higher expectations than "I want to launch this game".


I consider trophments a net negative on games (their effects on inbuilt cheats being where I start, encouraging lazy design for another). That said we have had challenges in games for many many many years now, and if we are talking about soon to be Epic "exclusives" then Borderlands 1 and 2 provide some of the best examples of that which I have ever seen. If they absolutely must do the whole see and be seen thing... to each their own I guess.
Community forums... any number of pieces of forum software exist* and being on Epic as far as I am aware does not preclude devs from using them, or another service that offers something like it. Such things happened years ago when installing and running a forum was actually half difficult as well. If people that beholden to Steam forums then I suppose I fell sorry for them just like I do those that never leave Facebook to experience the wider internet.
Streaming wise. Microsoft has made some superb streaming technologies for well over a decade at this point -- RDP has done full accelerated 3d, sound, low latency and any number of input devices... arguably since XP but definitely 7. Sometimes the big boy stuff is gated off behind big boy versions of windows which is a crying shame really, though these days most of those are the same one gamers will be using.
PC games have had extensive mods since before the internet was popular, and definitely since then.

*I make quite a few of the banners at the start of reviews around here. Part of that sees me going to any number of developer sites. A great many seem to use a similar script for their press kits, sites in general and what have you and it would be trivial to chuck in a prefabbed forum script to that.

Edit


Memoir said:


> Has Steam ever undercut another competitor before? If yes, I assume there's proof? Epic effectively stealing a promised Steam release more than once is only part of the problem. I assume, like Fast, you're dismissing their anti-consumer practices involving their storefront and customer support. Not to mention that STILL they have such a lack of basic security measures to keep your account from being phished just adds to it. Exclusivity is commonplace, and hurts the average consumer. Forcing someone to install another bit of software, or even purchasing dedicated hardware is asinine. Let alone defending the practice. Of course, you wouldn't know that. What with your white knighting and all.
> 
> By the way, Epic is far from pro-competition. They're not trying to prevent a monopoly. They are looking to start one. It's insanely obvious. Their bully tactics, fear mongering and numerous jabs at Steam and Steam alone.


Did Valve put anything into advertising the release or just have it added to their catalogue?
What security measures? I saw some wondering over the lack of two factor but that is about it.
I don't doubt Epic would love to assume Valve's position. Most tech companies would (they all seem to have something of a fetish for market domination of late). I don't particularly rate their chances are doing it though but if they take out Steam or at least force them to play better then more than worth it (it being create an account on another site). What bully tactics? Also why would you not take aim at the practical monopoly that dominates the market and ignore the small fish?


----------



## diggeloid (Jul 2, 2019)

Not having a shopping cart is stupid because CC companies and third party payment processors always charge a fee for each transaction. Bundling multiple purchases into a single transaction would save them a lot of money, in addition to being convenient for users.

The only reason I can imagine they don't have that feature is because they rushed development of the store. Either that, or some other weird bullshit pro-publisher policy, like not showing competing games on a store page.


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## Armadillo (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Thus far they have been things easily dodged though, easily replicated or minor conveniences. Barring Linux and OSX then the same games get made, the same games can be played, the things are loaded just as easily with no extra hardware nor any subscriptions.
> 
> I have not seen them turning the screws on the game players, I have not seen them turning the screws on the devs, have not seen malice (their Steam peeking stunt being about as close as that gets). Better yet have seen them fund some devs and offer better cuts than might be offered elsewhere. Don't particularly care for their connection to the Chinese but it ain't like many US tech companies are on my Christmas card list these days either. This mainly leaves me concluding it is some kind of Steam Stockholm syndrome, something I find quite distasteful as Valve seem to have spend a great many years now trying to piss in my face and tell me it is raining.



Shocking, straight back to the script of "everything is minor issue or not a big deal".

Even had to get a dig in at steam users with a nice stockholm syndrome jab, Valve is terrible, you people using it just don't realise it.

Of course, it's Stockholm syndrome, that's the only conculsion. Despite earlier claiming you know others have different opinions, the issues people raise not being minor in their opinion, once again seems to pass you by because they are minor to you and it must be some sort of misplaced loyalty to terrible valve .


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## gamesquest1 (Jul 2, 2019)

i would honestly say if people still want the game but are wanting to protest, i would just claim the PC version, sell the key and wait for the steam key, then you get the game for free pretty much


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 2, 2019)

Memoir said:


> Has Steam ever undercut another competitor before? If yes, I assume there's proof? Epic effectively stealing a promised Steam release more than once is only part of the problem. I assume, like Fast, you're dismissing their anti-consumer practices involving their storefront and customer support. Not to mention that STILL they have such a lack of basic security measures to keep your account from being phished just adds to it. Exclusivity is commonplace, and hurts the average consumer. Forcing someone to install another bit of software, or even purchasing dedicated hardware is asinine. Let alone defending the practice. Of course, you wouldn't know that. What with your white knighting and all.
> 
> By the way, Epic is far from pro-competition. They're not trying to prevent a monopoly. They are looking to start one. It's insanely obvious. Their bully tactics, fear mongering and numerous jabs at Steam and Steam alone.



They take less cuts from devs and offering them a lump sum of money so that even if their games dont sell well, they still make money.

Why would a dev go to steam, make less money, and have to deal with sperglings review bombing their games over nothing?


----------



## Pipistrele (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> I consider trophments a net negative on games (their effects on inbuilt cheats being where I start, encouraging lazy design for another). That said we have had challenges in games for many many many years now, and if we are talking about soon to be Epic "exclusives" then Borderlands 1 and 2 provide some of the best examples of that which I have ever seen. If they absolutely must do the whole see and be seen thing... to each their own I guess.
> Community forums... any number of pieces of forum software exist* and being on Epic as far as I am aware does not preclude devs from using them, or another service that offers something like it. Such things happened years ago when installing and running a forum was actually half difficult as well. If people that beholden to Steam forums then I suppose I fell sorry for them just like I do those that never leave Facebook to experience the wider internet.
> Streaming wise. Microsoft has made some superb streaming technologies for well over a decade at this point -- RDP has done full accelerated 3d, sound, low latency and any number of input devices... arguably since XP but definitely 7. Sometimes the big boy stuff is gated off behind big boy versions of windows which is a crying shame really, though these days most of those are the same one gamers will be using.
> PC games have had extensive mods since before the internet was popular, and definitely since then.
> ...


"To each their own" is an answer to a lot of things, and it happens that for a lot of gamers "their own" is not something EGS can provide, hence the disappointment over exclusives. As for the rest, the sentiment of "all features have alternatives/workarounds" is true, but just doesn't justify the need to drop an extremely convenient all-in-one solution to mess with alternatives/workarounds. 

Also, if you want truly "dealbreaking-in-every-way" examples, there's also regional pricing (or lack thereof on EGS) - not noticeable for US users, but for someone like me, who lives in Russia, same games are much cheaper in Steam than in EGS due to Valve implementing price correction. For some, game being EGS exclusive is losing convenience; for others, it's paying much more for the same product.


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## deinonychus71 (Jul 2, 2019)

I must say. Some people here have a really twisted sense of morality.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Pipistrele said:


> "To each their own" is an answer to a lot of things, and it happens that for a lot of gamers "their own" is not something EGS can provide, hence the disappointment over exclusives. As for the rest, the sentiment of "all features have alternatives/workarounds" is true, but just doesn't justify the need to drop an extremely convenient all-in-one solution to mess with alternatives/workarounds.
> 
> Also, if you want truly "dealbreaking-in-every-way" examples, there's also regional pricing (or lack thereof on EGS) - not noticeable for US users, but for someone like me, who lives in Russia, same games are much cheaper in Steam than in EGS due to Valve implementing price correction. For some, game being EGS exclusive is losing convenience; for others, it's paying much more for the same product.


Price correction or allowing devs to sell alt versions for less, nominally where either incomes or inclination to pirate make it worth it? It could be considered in pros and cons of the various systems (I believe I did in a previous breakdown of that picture). All that said I am more likely to tell those regions' economies to get good.

The list of things EGS can't provide beyond that though seems pitifully small or otherwise easily resolved.




Armadillo said:


> Shocking, straight back to the script of "everything is minor issue or not a big deal".
> 
> Even had to get a dig in at steam users with a nice stockholm syndrome jab, Valve is terrible, you people using it just don't realise it.
> 
> Of course, it's Stockholm syndrome, that's the only conculsion. Despite earlier claiming you know others have different opinions, the issues people raise not being minor in their opinion, once again seems to pass you by because they are minor to you and it must be some sort of misplaced loyalty to terrible valve .


If it works and I have not yet seen a counter I can roll with I will continue with it.

Also how am I to conclude otherwise? Valve have robbed people of the ability to resell games, they have played the censor on more than one occasion, played gatekeeper on many others, combination of the previous lot means we have also seen games vanish from sale, they are essentially a monopoly and in doing so they effectively collect a tax for doing not a lot... why people accord them the good feelings they do I seriously wonder at.


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## kevin corms (Jul 2, 2019)

KingVamp said:


> I'm sure some people are just mad that they are being forced to use yet another launcher, let alone if it is inferior or not.
> 
> 
> How can you tell if this is the case? How can you tell the difference and, in this case, why does it matter how many people are mad about this?


Because you can easily see its a small group of people who care, so small epic is covering the refunds just to shut them up.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



brandonspikes said:


> I just find it amazing that people lose their shit over Epic, then ride steam despite them being a terrible company who doesnt make games anymore, whos sales have been nothing short of awful the past 4 years, and who have abysmal CS despite being as large as they are.
> 
> Completely overrated monopoly that people defend and ignore the fact they aren't so great themselves.


Its only a handful of people really, but a few hundred people can sure make a lot of noise using twitter. People just cant wrap their head around the fact that there are billions of people in the world, they cant get things in perspective. Whats dangerous is that many people just follow what they see on the media, it doesnt even have to make any sense. The epic store thing hasnt hit that point yet, and I dont think it will.


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## BlastedGuy9905 (Jul 2, 2019)

Issac said:


> Why do people care if it's Epic Game Store exclusive? Well, maybe because this:


It's a single game for fucks sake.. You're not gonna switch over completely, are you?


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## Issac (Jul 2, 2019)

BlastedGuy9905 said:


> It's a single game for fucks sake.. You're not gonna switch over completely, are you?


Metro is one more, Borderlands is one more, and who knows which games will be exclusive in the future. 

Another thing to consider.
"Has Shenmue 1 and 2":
Steam - yes
Epic - no

Why wouldn't you want the third game together with the other two? 

The fewer accounts I have to get to keep my digital PC game collection, the better, in my opinion.


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## Bladexdsl (Jul 2, 2019)

Issac said:


> The fewer accounts I have to get to keep my digital PC game collection, the better, in my opinion.


also fuck epic and FADnite


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## Armadillo (Jul 2, 2019)

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



FAST6191 said:


> If it works and I have not yet seen a counter I can roll with I will continue with it.



Simply dimissing everything as "not a big deal" is not really countering it. It's not really engaging in debate or discussions as you claimed earlier either. But if it makes you happy, sure, crack on. Keep coming into topic after topic, asking "what's the issue with epic"  just so you can say "that's not a big deal".



FAST6191 said:


> Also how am I to conclude otherwise?



Oh, I dunno. You could actually take others people opinions onboard? Maybe, just maybe, what you see as downsides, others don't? The good outweighs the bad for many? You can disagree sure, but you could accept others have a different opinion.

Seems a bridge too far for you though, seems like only yours matter. You have an axe to grind with Valve, you don't see value in what they provide, so the only conclusion is, everyone else is wrong and have misplaced loyalty to valve.



FAST6191 said:


> Valve have robbed people of the ability to resell games, they have played the censor on more than one occasion, played gatekeeper on many others, combination of the previous lot means we have also seen games vanish from sale, they are essentially a monopoly and in doing so they effectively collect a tax for doing not a lot... why people accord them the good feelings they do I seriously wonder at.




Valve didn't rob you. Online accounts did. I can't resell my bad company 2, despite it being neither origin or steamworks, because the key tied to an ea account.

Games disappearing, rights running out is somehow valves fault? They disappear from consoles as well. Valve don't make it so keys can't activate, unused keys from physical copies can still be activated. Stuff leaving is a problem with digital distribution, not Steam.

Not a lot according to you, which seems to be all that matters. I guess you will just have to keep wondering, people have told you again and again, but you can't seem to accept what you deem as unimportant, others do not. So that's a question that will forever be unanswered for you.


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## Xzi (Jul 2, 2019)

Epic is going to have to get used to paying out for refunds if they're going to keep snatching up crowdfunded games as exclusives well after keys were promised for another platform.  And I think they're well aware that crowdfunded games which promise EGS keys from the beginning are a lot less likely to meet their funding goals.  Quite the dilemma.  When you can't be arsed to provide half-decent customer facing software, bait and switch becomes an almost mandatory strategy.


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## kevin corms (Jul 2, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Epic is going to have to get used to paying out for refunds if they're going to keep snatching up crowdfunded games as exclusives well after keys were promised for another platform.  And I think they're well aware that crowdfunded games which promise EGS keys from the beginning are a lot less likely to meet their funding goals.  Quite the dilemma.  When you can't be arsed to provide half-decent customer facing software, bait and switch becomes an almost mandatory strategy.


They didnt have to, but they gave them refunds to shut them up. A few hundred people can stir up a lot of crap on twitter.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 2, 2019)

kevin corms said:


> They didnt have to, but they gave them refunds to shut them up. A few hundred people can stir up a lot of crap on twitter.


I assume you have a source for the numbers? Seems like more than a "few hundred" people take issue with Epic.


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## Xzi (Jul 2, 2019)

kevin corms said:


> They didnt have to, but they gave them refunds to shut them up. A few hundred people can stir up a lot of crap on twitter.


I mean, the other option was simply providing the Steam keys which were promised to backers.  If the expectation is that the game will sell well after release, that shouldn't be an issue.  

In any case, people who helped make the game happen by funding its development shouldn't need to complain for a month straight before the publisher finally does the bare minimum to make things right.  That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in other potential customers.  If the game turns out to be buggy and broken, will they also have to complain for a month before getting a refund?


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## Armadillo (Jul 2, 2019)

No point arguing over numbers. No one has any either way.

Market will decide, just as it did with UWP and the Windows store. That was also allegedly a minoirity of loud people and then suddenly MS buddy up with Steam.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How am I not accepting others have a different opinion? I am reading them, interpreting them and responding to them using what I understand of the language we appear to be conversing in. That necessarily means I accept others have different opinions. As for only my opinions matter then not really -- I am just a dude on an internet forum, one advocating for their approach to the world (which is a fairly common thing to be doing in such a place). I do see a value in what Valve provide, however the cost of it is way in excess of that from where I sit. Similarly in this sort of thing everybody else is free to have their own variables in the "something is worth what someone else is willing to pay" equation.

As far as not a big deal then the primary role of a game launcher these days is to sell me games and let me download them/play them then Epic have that on lock it seems. Everything else is ancillary. If Valve want to gate off* some extra functionality to entice people then that is a fine way to play it (in business terms that is probably something known as intangible extras). Some of those things Epic is lacking are no question nice, however most of those are happily provided at OS level, by third parties (usually for free) and what remains largely ranks around "Steam uses my favourite colour as its background when it launches". If people want to bring up a lack of a few ancillary features as to why Epic are the king arseholes and should be shunned then play it as you will, don't expect me to be there with the pitchforks and torches though. From where I sit "exclusivity" is another take on acting as a publisher (and again this means another free account with a simple program that people likely have dozens or already, no subscriptions, no extra hardware, no crazy software reconfigurations) and that also goes for the claim of "bribe" which some were throwing around.
If it helps then feel free to read "not a big deal" as "why would I make a big deal of that being there or lacking?".

*if they were truly the magnanimous saviours of gaming that some paint them as it would not be gated but they are free to gate it though and I will not fault them for that one.

Valve have pushed the no second hand thing for a long time, argued against it when courts tried to introduce it and argued against things that de facto resemble resale options, coupled with their nice little monopoly then they as good as did it, and it would have been trivial (barring existing contracts) for them to implement it on their system. If resale of existing copies was a thing then it if not solves then renders the disappearing games the same as physical, give or take shrinking pool of saleable copies probably shrinking at a slower rate (account destruction, deaths without concern for such things and whatnot being lower than spurned lovers and bored mothers sticking things in the bin, battery leaks, little brothers needing a bad Frisbee and general physical issues), and that is the same as everything else which is a bit sad that we still have the technology to solve already in place**but we can work on that one later. The Stockholm bit was a snarky remark but the underlying point still stands -- I really am at a loss as to why people are willing to jump in and defend Valve as much as they seem to be and focusing so much ire on Epic.

**or we could see them do something similar to Gamestop's buy their own stock of whatever that Wii RPG was upon warning of removal such that for a few more years they would be the sellers.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 2, 2019)

I agree that backers should get refunded but at the same time you gotta be mad petty to actually withdraw funding from the game because of a launcher you gotta download.

Oh well, at least Epic is rich enough the refunds are coming out of their pockets and not the poor devs who didn't even make the decision.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Robfozz said:


> I agree that backers should get refunded but at the same time you gotta be mad petty to actually withdraw funding from the game because of a launcher you gotta download.
> 
> Oh well, at least Epic is rich enough the refunds are coming out of their pockets and not the poor devs who didn't even make the decision.



For the most part I view crowdfunding as an investment, mainly as that it what it was always sold as, and the main thing governing that one is "never invest anything you can't afford to lose". If they can recover something in the event of outright fraud then that is good.

If a game dev realises they will not be able to deliver on a major anticipated feature, or the whole thing, and they have not spent the money then I can see offering a refund as a good will gesture, but far from any kind of requirement. "as yet unreleased game to be downloaded from different location" does not seem like anything worth getting worked up over, much less to the point of offering refunds.

As far as devs making decisions then who had the creative and financial control here? While I have no objection to big publishers funding or gauging interest in a game through such things rather than a bank loan, investor call, or their own pockets, which was something some people seemed to take exception to in earlier discussions, then was this still something a pub could wrench from the hands of starving devs to give to mean old Epic?


----------



## guisadop (Jul 2, 2019)

I'll never forgive steam for completely annihilating physical on PC


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## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

guisadop said:


> I'll never forgive steam for completely annihilating physical on PC


The lack of physical is not a problem -- they could easily provide something with functionality akin to it*, and sort it such that game shops in most places could download things to USB for you (or burn a disc). They however choose not to.

*some big anonymous register of game owners/address and the ability to issue transfer codes to others in the ideal case. Standard account login type setup in the event not.


----------



## Armadillo (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> How am I not accepting others have a different opinion? I am reading them, interpreting them and responding to them using what I understand of the language we appear to be conversing in. That necessarily means I accept others have different opinions. As for only my opinions matter then not really -- I am just a dude on an internet forum, one advocating for their approach to the world (which is a fairly common thing to be doing in such a place). I do see a value in what Valve provide, however the cost of it is way in excess of that from where I sit. Similarly in this sort of thing everybody else is free to have their own variables in the "something is worth what someone else is willing to pay" equation.



You accept them, yet you immediately dismiss everyone as not a big deal. Every Epic topic it's the same song and dance. You come in, "just asking question", can't understand why people don't like Epic. You get an answer, dimiss it and we go around again and again.

If you accept others opinions, why do we have this conversation in some form in every Epic topic? It doesn't seem like you accept others opinions when every epic topic we have the same questions. Why do people not like Epic, why do they love Valve, you get your answer, you apparently accept other people have a different opinion and yet like clockwork, there you are in Epic topics "I can't understand why people are so passionate about X issue".

From here it really doesn't seem like you have taken peoples opinions onboard. 






FAST6191 said:


> As far as not a big deal then the primary role of a game launcher these days is to sell me games and let me download them/play them then Epic have that on lock it seems. Everything else is ancillary. If Valve want to gate off* some extra functionality to entice people then that is a fine way to play it (in business terms that is probably something known as intangible extras). Some of those things Epic is lacking are no question nice, however most of those are happily provided at OS level, by third parties (usually for free) and what remains largely ranks around "Steam uses my favourite colour as its background when it launches". If people want to bring up a lack of a few ancillary features as to why Epic are the king arseholes and should be shunned then play it as you will, don't expect me to be there with the pitchforks and torches though. From where I sit "exclusivity" is another take on acting as a publisher (and again this means another free account with a simple program that people likely have dozens or already, no subscriptions, no extra hardware, no crazy software reconfigurations) and that also goes for the claim of "bribe" which some were throwing around.
> If it helps then feel free to read "not a big deal" as "why would I make a big deal of that being there or lacking?".




Did anyone say you should have pitchforks out? No. Likewise, no one says you should personally find it a big deal. It's fine if you don't. Others do, you don't that's fine. But you are the one that keeps asking "why", why do people have an issue, but can't seem to accept the answer, because to you "it's not a big deal".




FAST6191 said:


> *if they were truly the magnanimous saviours of gaming that some paint them as it would not be gated but they are free to gate it though and I will not fault them for that one.
> 
> Valve have pushed the no second hand thing for a long time, argued against it when courts tried to introduce it and argued against things that de facto resemble resale options, coupled with their nice little monopoly then they as good as did it, and it would have been trivial (barring existing contracts) for them to implement it on their system. If resale of existing copies was a thing then it if not solves then renders the disappearing games the same as physical, give or take shrinking pool of saleable copies probably shrinking at a slower rate (account destruction, deaths without concern for such things and whatnot being lower than spurned lovers and bored mothers sticking things in the bin, battery leaks, little brothers needing a bad Frisbee and general physical issues), and that is the same as everything else which is a bit sad that we still have the technology to solve already in place**but we can work on that one later. The Stockholm bit was a snarky remark but the underlying point still stands --




Everyone pushed the no second hand sales.

Not just Valve. Origin, Battlenet, Steam, everyone, even Epic. Every form of digital distribution pushes "no resales". Valve might have argued against it, because Valve were the big player, so of course it was brought against them, but it's not a Valve thing no matter how much you want it to be. 

Even GOG which is completely drm free copies of games doesn't support "resales". There's no way to remove the entitlement from your account and give it to someone else. 




FAST6191 said:


> I really am at a loss as to why people are willing to jump in and defend Valve as much as they seem to be and focusing so much ire on Epic.



You're at a loss because you want to be. You've had your answer again and again. Valve provides a service, features  & convenience that people clearly value. You don't value it the same way, and that's fine. You apparently accept others opinions on this and yet once again at the end of a post, you are at a loss as to why people like Valve despite people telling you why constantly in these topics.

You don't have to accept it, you can disagree, but at this point, I can't see how you are at a loss when people constantly tell you why.


----------



## BlastedGuy9905 (Jul 2, 2019)

Issac said:


> Metro is one more, Borderlands is one more, and who knows which games will be exclusive in the future.
> 
> Another thing to consider.
> "Has Shenmue 1 and 2":
> ...


It's better, yeah, but it shouldn't make you refund..


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 2, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> You accept them, yet you immediately dismiss everyone as not a big deal. Every Epic topic it's the same song and dance. You come in, "just asking question", can't understand why people don't like Epic. You get an answer, dimiss it and we go around again and again.
> 
> If you accept others opinions, why do we have this conversation in some form in every Epic topic? It doesn't seem like you accept others opinions when every epic topic we have the same questions. Why do people not like Epic, why do they love Valve, you get your answer, you apparently accept other people have a different opinion and yet like clockwork, there you are in Epic topics "I can't understand why people are so passionate about X issue".
> 
> ...




I view the dislike of Epic, whilst simultaneously praising or at least tolerating Valve, to be a logically dissonant act, and for each to be basically the same as the other (at least as far as I trust them), albeit Valve enjoying an effective monopoly at present that I would rather not see be so. If you get people to question it (tell me why and all that) then as an argument tactic I find it works better than telling people that they are dumb cunts and should learn to logic, moreover despite what some might think I am not set in my ways and might actually encounter an argument that holds water this time around (be it a further development, better modelling for those things based on probabilities or a point yet not considered). Similarly plenty seem content to pour scorn on Epic each time if somehow appearing each time to ask questions (or be timely enough to pre empt it in this case) is a bad thing by virtue of cluttering up the joint.

The pitchforks thing is a turn of phrase, though a fitting one as plenty seem to be calling for Epic to be shunned or publicly chastised for what I see as bog standard business dealings (if you have a weak product can you build something to make it better? OK can you buy in something? Even better can you buy something that lessens a competitor's market position? Tell me you would not find that in any business manual anywhere), or for dubious reasons (I already covered the odd use of the terms bribe and exclusive as it pertains to this situation or Epic's efforts as a whole). This on top of what seems like a massive overreaction to a trifling difference. As far as taking opinions on board then I can state if someone quotes me I definitely read it and if not then chances are if it is a thread I posted in I still read it (and I would hope that mentioning things covered in previous threads but not yet in this shows that I remember the notions put forth too), what am I supposed to do if I find arguments put forth to be weak? Wandering off having heard an answer, not necessarily a satisfactory one, would surely be a greater disservice to the discussion. People are free to redouble their efforts or attempt a different means of justifying why I might have unfairly dismissed something.
Or if you prefer mine is always to reason why, why in this case do people deserve a refund in an investment scenario for a seemingly inconsequential difference; ignoring the development help then presumably the same game will result, presumably the same hardware would play it (or will play it when stripped of Epic's DRM), all without a radical software tweak on par with installing an OS or something, without a subscription, and without any kind of extra hardware investment, all with the greater question of how can seemingly/purportedly logical people justify the upset at Epic which have done nothing outrageous* by the standards of normal business being in the background there.

*maybe even some praiseworthy stuff -- funding and assisting some dev for a marginal cut is not generally viewed as bad.

Not every form of digital distribution/downloadable games -- plenty offer DRM free which is as good as from my perspective (honour system probably less desirable to devs but eh). Valve took active measures though and continued to do so, therefore they are culpable, even if they were just following orders (worse is they buck trends when it suits them all the time). It does also mean I am none too great a fan of Epic but if the arsehole takes out the bastard or they both die from their wounds while I look on, popcorn in hand, then I am OK with that.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 2, 2019)

Is it really that hard to understand why people wouldn't like the idea of using EGS?  Yes, it meets the bare minimum of functionality for a launcher-storefront.  AOL also meets the bare minimum of functionality for an ISP.  Huawei meets the bare minimum of functionality for smartphones.  There are still massive downsides to trusting these companies with your money and data.  You can't expect most customers to be fine with the bare minimum, particularly when the competition has been providing far more than that for years or even decades.


----------



## SlasherGamer21 (Jul 2, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.



Because its the Epic Games Store and they promised the backers Steam Keys upon launch but since its gonna be an EGS exclusive that's not possible. The EGS is a failure you have to admit.


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.


Because, regardless of your thoughts on steam or the epic store, it's a change in the terms made after the money was already paid.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 3, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Is it really that hard to understand why people wouldn't like the idea of using EGS?  Yes, it meets the bare minimum of functionality for a launcher-storefront.  AOL also meets the bare minimum of functionality for an ISP.  Huawei meets the bare minimum of functionality for smartphones.  There are still massive downsides to trusting these companies with your money and data.  You can't expect most customers to be fine with the bare minimum, particularly when the competition has been providing far more than that for years or even decades.


I can understand a minor distaste at a minor inconvenience -- if they made it to the point in life where they can sign up for a crowdfunding effort they can surely make a throwaway for a one off game. The level I am seeing here (one bordering on or showing some of the hallmarks of various computing holy wars or console wars if we are looking more at games) is not one I can understand. It is not like the backers are not going to get the game, or not going to get a major component of the game. It is not like Valve/Steam are some innocent little entity so benevolent in nature that risking their happiness is an affront to all that is good in the world, or that Valve/Steam is holding back the tide or keeping things funded/ticking where others would not*.

*I know they are a decent contributor to a lot of open source, and the long term is nice but by the same logic Epic is funding sure to be popular, artistically or culturally relevant titles and surely that also counts in this equation.

I necessarily don't expect customers to be fine with the bare minimum (though I am still dubious on the value of sum total of valve's token offerings -- maybe it is that old Microsoft word thing of everybody uses only 10%, but a different 10%), though history has shown they can handle it a lot of the time. From what I have seen I would similarly not call it bare minimum, or at least it is not the latest in a long line of abusers or the term alpha or beta.

Similarly I have generally found Huawei to be a reasonable maker of phones -- if nothing else they still offer external cards and a 3.5mm jack, all with half nice hardware, which is more than can be said for a lot of things these days. Bit light on the easily swappable battery but baby steps and all that.




SlasherGamer21 said:


> Because its the Epic Games Store and they promised the backers Steam Keys upon launch but since its gonna be an EGS exclusive that's not possible. The EGS is a failure you have to admit.



I don't know how we can call EGS a failure if it is still actively supported and developed -- I am sure they would have loved Valve, GOG, gamersgate, greenmangaming, whatever Discord are doing, humble bundle and all the others to get on the blower and say we are chucking in the towel, here are the keys to the front door. It might well end up a failure in the future, no great loss though if so.
As for the first part are Steam keys such a valuable part of the game that you would refund investors? I get it for multiplayer that will never come, or single player that will never come, or some minigame/boss rush/similar extras that might never come or something of that sort of magnitude but again something that will run on the same hardware, the same OS, no radical software tweaks needed, be the same game it would have otherwise been (if not better), at presumably the same launch timeframe, require no subscription... why the fuss? If Valve had decided to stick up the middle digit to the devs here (we will go with for no good reason, mainly as Valve have done that in the past) and they had to find a home on GOG or something instead would there have been the backlash?



Edgarska said:


> Because, regardless of your thoughts on steam or the epic store, it's a change in the terms made after the money was already paid.


It is a change, one I would argue is quite minor, in development goals after an investment was made. Not really the same as a hard contract, or a major claim being unable to be met.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> It is not like the backers are not going to get the game, or not going to get a major component of the game.


They aren't getting what they were promised, and that's reason enough to request a refund.  Bait and switch is not acceptable in any other sales industry, and we certainly shouldn't be giving the impression that it's acceptable in the gaming industry.



FAST6191 said:


> It is not like Valve/Steam are some innocent little entity so benevolent in nature that risking their happiness is an affront to all that is good in the world, or that Valve/Steam is holding back the tide or keeping things funded/ticking where others would not.  I know they are a decent contributor to a lot of open source, and the long term is nice but by the same logic Epic is funding sure to be popular, artistically or culturally relevant titles and surely that also counts in this equation.


Valve does actually help fund development for a lot of smaller titles, and unlike Epic, it's not with the expectation that those games will be made exclusive to Steam.  I'm also not convinced that any game Epic has made exclusive wouldn't have been developed without their funding, given that many of those games were already crowdfunded or had contracts with big-name publishers already in place.



FAST6191 said:


> From what I have seen I would similarly not call it bare minimum, or at least it is not the latest in a long line of abusers or the term alpha or beta.


I'm not sure how EGS could possibly be any more bare bones.  Epic is trying to take a swing at Steam before they've even managed to gain feature parity with Origin, Uplay, Battle.net, and other small players.



FAST6191 said:


> Similarly I have generally found Huawei to be a reasonable maker of phones -- if nothing else they still offer external cards and a 3.5mm jack, all with half nice hardware, which is more than can be said for a lot of things these days. Bit light on the easily swappable battery but baby steps and all that.


They do nothing to stand out from other budget brands, and the difference is that you have at least _some_ assurance the other budget brands aren't sending all your personal data straight to the Chinese government.

Similarly, EGS' security is so terrible that competitive Fortnite players have had their accounts compromised while streaming.  Not to mention Tencent will soon have a majority stake in Epic, and they aren't exactly known for tight data privacy standards.


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> It is a change, one I would argue is quite minor, in development goals after an investment was made. Not really the same as a hard contract, or a major claim being unable to be met.



Then I guess this is subjective, for me any change is an important change after the transaction is completed and voids the original agreement.


----------



## Armadillo (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> I view the dislike of Epic, whilst simultaneously praising or at least tolerating Valve, to be a logically dissonant act, and for each to be basically the same as the other (at least as far as I trust them), albeit Valve enjoying an effective monopoly at present that I would rather not see be so. If you get people to question it (tell me why and all that) then as an argument tactic I find it works better than telling people that they are dumb cunts and should learn to logic, moreover despite what some might think I am not set in my ways and might actually encounter an argument that holds water this time around (be it a further development, better modelling for those things based on probabilities or a point yet not considered).


It's only logicially dissonant because you don't see the features that Valve provide as a good thing. You see it as just a launcher and the other features don't matter, in which case, yeah they are the same.

Others clearly don't, others value the feature set of steam and the convienace it provides. It's not that people are dumb cunts and don't know logic, it's you see them as the same product because XYZ is not important to you. Others don't. There is no logic flaw if you find value in valves feature set, as Epic and Valve aren't the same. Getting people to question it, only works if we are dealing with facts.

We are not, whether you find the feature set important and valuable, is an opinion. Those who do find them important will never see Epic and Valve as "the same" no matter how many times you ask them why.




FAST6191 said:


> The pitchforks thing is a turn of phrase, though a fitting one as plenty seem to be calling for Epic to be shunned or publicly chastised for what I see as bog standard business dealings (if you have a weak product can you build something to make it better? OK can you buy in something? Even better can you buy something that lessens a competitor's market position? Tell me you would not find that in any business manual anywhere), or for dubious reasons (I already covered the odd use of the terms bribe and exclusive as it pertains to this situation or Epic's efforts as a whole).



People have their pitchforks out for epic. Never in question, it is fitting. I specifically said no one said you should have them out. As you seemed to be under the impression people want were annoyed that you specifically are not there with them.





FAST6191 said:


> Wandering off having heard an answer, not necessarily a satisfactory one, would surely be a greater disservice to the discussion.



It's not really a discussion though is it?

It's not a discussion on why people like those features or whatever, it's just you asking why people like Valve over and over again, because the answer doesn't satisfy you.



FAST6191 said:


> Or if you prefer mine is always to reason why, why in this case do people deserve a refund in an investment scenario for a seemingly inconsequential difference; ignoring the development help then presumably the same game will result, presumably the same hardware would play it (or will play it when stripped of Epic's DRM), all without a radical software tweak on par with installing an OS or something, without a subscription, and without any kind of extra hardware investment, all with the greater question of how can seemingly/purportedly logical people justify the upset at Epic which have done nothing outrageous* by the standards of normal business being in the background there.



Because that's what was offered. Simple as that. Invest in this, get a steam key. Simple, whether they are different enough makes no difference, you were offered X if you give them money, now they want to give you Y. Doesn't matter the reason why you don't like it. X was offered, you are given Y. Refund should be offered.



FAST6191 said:


> Not every form of digital distribution/downloadable games -- plenty offer DRM free which is as good as from my perspective (honour system probably less desirable to devs but eh). Valve took active measures though and continued to do so, therefore they are culpable, even if they were just following orders (worse is they buck trends when it suits them all the time). It does also mean I am none too great a fan of Epic but if the arsehole takes out the bastard or they both die from their wounds while I look on, popcorn in hand, then I am OK with that.



I mentioned gog. That's DRM free, and the terms forbid it. There is no option to transfer games to another account.

Being "good enough" for you, doesn't equal allowing the resale of games which is what you were complaining about.  It's just with drm free there is no way to stop it.


----------



## Pipistrele (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> The list of things EGS can't provide beyond that though seems pitifully small or otherwise easily resolved.


The list is pretty large (as was summarized by me and posted more comprehensively in a pic above) and can't be resolved without third party solutions, so if you're just going to ignore that point, I have nothing else to add.


----------



## medoli900 (Jul 3, 2019)

The hate for the Epic launcher is understandable. Any exclusivity on PC means that you have to have that launcher always installed, because DRM. Not everyone can afford to have multiple launcher to bloat their computer.


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## Jayro (Jul 3, 2019)

We just want everything on Steam, because that's where most of us have our largest game collections. More and more game launchers suck, hence the boycott.


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## Jimbo_Slim (Jul 3, 2019)

People leaving EGS in the dust about how barebones it is and I'm over here thinking, "Well it came out like a couple years ago and if Economics taught me anything, it's that anything that is poor/third-world will catch up to the leaders/those with technology and catch up and end up being more advanced than those leaders".

Epic Games Store is still new. I'm giving it some time, but it is a shame that I'd need 2 launchers to hold my games. Steam isn't in the clear as I can't sell the games I played once or twice but don't want due to how digital games work. Steam may be the most popular due to time and the fact that most people think Steam when they think PC gaming, but it's hardly flawed. I'd rather have everything on my Switch since it's on the go and has 3rd party games so my Steam library is bitin' the dust.

The whole deal with Shenmue becoming an exclusive for EGS after it was stated to be on Steam is pretty bad, since this is essentially bait-and-switch, perhaps unintentionally. 

(Don't really care about the game so take this with a grain of salt)


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## Sillybunnie (Jul 3, 2019)

they should just cancel the game and erase all copies source, then all the cry babies can be happy that no one gets to play or enjoy it because of their temper tantrum


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## DBlaze (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.


Because you make promises and then back out of it. I'm not sure if you ever had any promises broken to you, specially when you paid for it, but usually that tends to upset people, idk.

On the note of epic store, i'm not a fan of how mr. Sweeney handles his arguments about competition being healthy, while all he does is force a division by buying up exclusive access on his store (timed or not), he's a massive hypocrite at best.
If his store is so great for developers / publishers, whatever gets the biggest cut, then why don't they go to that store voluntarily, instead of having to be bought?


----------



## Ericthegreat (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Still not sure why people are upset (it is not like a Linux build was promised and suddenly not delivered), much less deserving of refunds.


I think people just hate the epic store, or they've found a way to justify pirateing it (for those weird ppl that don't pirate, but look for the smallest thing to happen so they can say they were forced to pirate it)


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## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Them promising multiplayer and backing out. Sure offer refunds as some kind of good will gesture if you want/can as that is a fundamental shift in offerings. From a technical sense you are some kind of investor so "this is why you never invest what you can't afford to lose" is in full force but hey.
> Them making people use an alternative free launcher on an identical system for the same game (or indeed potentially better if it the deal resulted in some assistance with dev)... not seeing the need.
> 
> 
> ...



This will be to stop potential lawsuits on the basis of false advertising. As inconsequential as the change in launcher may or may not be, you legally can't just advertise one thing and deliver another.


----------



## anhminh (Jul 3, 2019)

medoli900 said:


> The hate for the Epic launcher is understandable. Any exclusivity on PC means that you have to have that launcher always installed, because DRM. Not everyone can afford to have multiple launcher to bloat their computer.


Yeah, another app icon on my precious desktop and hundred of Megabytes on my 6 Terabytes PC are too much of investment for a game I want to play. /s

Where is the hate for Nintendo when they force you to buy their expensive low spec toy and use they crappy store for exclusive game?


----------



## DBlaze (Jul 3, 2019)

anhminh said:


> Where is the hate for Nintendo when *they force you to buy their expensive low spec toy* and use they crappy store for exclusive game?


Except they don't? Consoles having their own dedicated store makes a whole lot more sense than a computer having 1 dedicated store for exclusives.

That's like saying valve or epic is forcing you to buy a computer because you want to play video games on a computer, the store is the problem here, not the system.


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> I think people just hate the epic store, or they've found a way to justify pirateing it (for those weird ppl that don't pirate, but look for the smallest thing to happen so they can say they were forced to pirate it)


Or some people don't like sudden changes in a product they already paid for, after they paid for it. In fact, this is illegal in any other industry other than videogames.


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## DANTENDO (Jul 3, 2019)

Those who don't want to read 6 pages of 90% bullshit and just want to enjoy the game buy it on ps4


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## Ericthegreat (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> Or some people don't like sudden changes in a product they already paid for, after they paid for it. In fact, this is illegal in any other industry other than videogames.


It's also kind of a bigger deal in other industries.... (not that I don't agree with you, just saying)


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## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> It's also kind of a bigger deal in other industries.... (not that I don't agree with you, just saying)


How is it a bigger deal in other industries, it's still money exchanged for a product.


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## Ericthegreat (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> How is it a bigger deal in other industries, it's still money exchanged for a product.


Telling you, you now have to drive to Walgreens instead of CVS to pick up your prescriptions is a bigger deal. (Could be a longer drive ect)


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> Telling you, you now have to drive to Walgreens instead of CVS to pick up your prescriptions is a bigger deal. (Could be a longer drive ect)


That's not even remotely similar, prescriptions are not given by the pharmacy.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> That's not even remotely similar, prescriptions are not given by the pharmacy.


Well, your pills are....


----------



## ChibiMofo (Jul 3, 2019)

Those of you who don't understand why people wanted refunds perplex me. Would anyone who actually backed this game want a refund at this point if the Epic thing wasn't a very serious issue for them?

The answer to that rhetorical question is "no." That so many wanted a refund tells you that Shenmue's developers had no realistic choice but to offer what they did, including a refund. It sets a bad precedence for backed games, but then so does the bait and switch to Epic. I think we all know what really happened here. The Shenmue devs wrote their plea in good faith believing it would only ever be a Steam game on PC. Then Epic approached them with bags of $100 bills. Then the Shenmue devs decided to sign on with Epic hoping they could get away with it and insisting there would be no refunds. That was never going to work. Epic probably gave them a loan against future earnings to allow the devs to issue refunds right now. And here we are.

I didn't back the game. But I'd be very pissed off if I did only to have them try to hang Epic's malware on me long AFTER they had my money. It's bad enough having that worthless Steam executable stealing CPU cycles from me all day long. I don't need _more_ Mandatory Malware™.


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> Well, your pills are....


The original point was that it's illegal to change your product after you pay for it without notice. That pharmacy example doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> The original point was that it's illegal to change your product after you pay for it without notice. That pharmacy example doesn't make any sense.


Well, how did they change it? They made you go to a different store, right?


----------



## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> Well, how did they change it? They made you go to a different store, right?



They changed what they gave you. They advertised a steam key, people paid for a steam key. An epic store key while similar, is not the exact thing paid for.  They're delivering a different product. In this case your product is the key not the game itself. With justification or not people really don't like the Epic store and don't want to use it. Why should they be forced too in order to use a product that was supposed to work without it?


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> Well, how did they change it? They made you go to a different store, right?


Yes, and again, a pharmacy doesn't change your prescription, your doctor does.


----------



## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> Yes, and again, a pharmecy doesn't change your prescription, your doctor does.


I suppose a still flawed but closer analogy with the pharmacy would be turning up with a script for morphine and them giving you codeine and just saying, they're both comparable pain killers so it doesn't matter.


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

spectral said:


> I suppose a still flawed but closer analogy with the pharmacy would be turning up with a script for morphine and them giving you codeine and just saying, they're both comparable pain killers so it doesn't matter.


Exactly. 

The fact that they changed which store redeems the code is irrelevant, the fact is a customer paid for something with the terms clearly laid out, and they were changed after the fact.
Whether you like steam more than epic store, or barely tolerate steam like I do, the fact is they changed the deal after the payment was made, which voids the original agreement.

It baffles me that people will argue against their own rights as consumer in order to defend a company's practices.


----------



## cots (Jul 3, 2019)

I don't care for Shenmue and haven't tried Epic's store front yet. Is it lightweight like GOG's launcher or bloated an intrusive like Origin? I'm not one to care much about what launcher I use or what console I have to buy. If it's a game I want to play then that's all I really care about.


----------



## Edgarska (Jul 3, 2019)

Just to add a detail I had overlooked, this is from their official statement:



> Concerning Refunds
> 
> Along with Deep Silver and Epic Games, we have agreed that should the above proposal not be acceptable to backers, refund requests will be honored.
> Details concerning the refund request process will be announced in a following update. We ask for your patience until that time.
> ...



That's just fucked up.


----------



## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> Just to add a detail I had overlooked, this is from their official statement:
> 
> 
> 
> That's just fucked up.



Thats not unusual for any goods with a bespoke order. Generally the rules for it are different. I'm assuming it means that they paid to have their name in the game ortheir art work in the game,etc. That work is already done and paid for and is in the game. On that score they fulfilled their end. Those are seperate to your purchase of the game itself. O rif its for physical rewards that are made to order have already been manufactured. Again not part of the game.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 3, 2019)

Click on the forums and 10 alerts to go through. Hopefully I won't miss anybody, or if it appears I did then I hope the points addressed from those I do cover also cover those.



Xzi said:


> They aren't getting what they were promised, and that's reason enough to request a refund.  Bait and switch is not acceptable in any other sales industry, and we certainly shouldn't be giving the impression that it's acceptable in the gaming industry.
> 
> 
> Valve does actually help fund development for a lot of smaller titles, and unlike Epic, it's not with the expectation that those games will be made exclusive to Steam.  I'm also not convinced that any game Epic has made exclusive wouldn't have been developed without their funding, given that many of those games were already crowdfunded or had contracts with big-name publishers already in place.
> ...



Does any development ever go exactly to plan? Minor stuff that does not impact gameplay and leaves it still running on an otherwise identical system... that is petty.

And?

Why waste your time becoming the biggest little fish if you can convincingly take a swipe at the king?

Do you have and workups of the "while streaming" thing? I should be interested to read about that. The Chinese thing is potentially a problem, and reason I could see some want to skip out on it.




Armadillo said:


> It's only logicially dissonant because you don't see the features that Valve provide as a good thing. You see it as just a launcher and the other features don't matter, in which case, yeah they are the same.
> 
> Others clearly don't, others value the feature set of steam and the convienace it provides. It's not that people are dumb cunts and don't know logic, it's you see them as the same product because XYZ is not important to you. Others don't. There is no logic flaw if you find value in valves feature set, as Epic and Valve aren't the same. Getting people to question it, only works if we are dealing with facts.
> 
> ...



I can see why some would enjoy the features Valve provides. Consider my words here an open invitation for anybody that cares  to sell me on why Valve's, usually pretty easily replicated, efforts are indeed so valuable as to have their absence noted in all this.

You had a false impression of my position then, and I might have contributed to the misunderstanding -- I don't think anybody has been particularly upset at my indifference thus far. That said I am still at something of a loss for why people want to go after Epic.

I already addressed what I see as the utterly minor and almost inconsequential change from Steam key to Epic key a few lines back. Same response really.

So GOG have further restrictions on top of nominally being DRM free. Don't see what that has to do with the abstract concept being contemplated.



Pipistrele said:


> The list is pretty large (as was summarized by me and posted more comprehensively in a pic above) and can't be resolved without third party solutions, so if you're just going to ignore that point, I have nothing else to add.


I did look at the picture. Some of it is dubious to me and I realise now it was an earlier post that was bumped last night wherein I had previously addressed it. I can go again if you want.



Spoiler



https://i.imgur.com/SynNfar.jpg
third party keys. Meh really. So you can buy steam keys from a third party site...
Account sharing. Is that the family sharing thing?
Trophments. I already covered that before. If people really really enjoy them then so be it. Games can happily add their own internal challenges (be it stats, completion, or to try to force all/odd styles of play) though and reward players for them so we are now back at the "see and be seen" set. Apparently it is coming in the next few months if it matters though.
Big picture/TV stuff. 10 foot interfaces are nice but bog standard OS can still usually get it done.
Broadcasting... don't most graphics cards anybody would be using to play games have these options these days?
China spying. OK potentially a problem, though most of what I have seen thus far is minor.
Cloud saves. Because pointing my save folder at a dropbox account is hard? Apparently it is also set to drop before too long along with the trophments.
Both have cross platform account connection whatever that is.
Curation? Because there are not a billion sites with game lists and reviews on?
Both have nice data slurping it seems.
Both have DRM free options.
Both have early access if that is somehow a positive.
Forums? Again because there are not a million forums out there, or multi purpose forum sites?
Friends list and chat. Apparently both have it.
Gifting. I can see this being a missed trick and having to send my friend some money and say grab that as we are going to be playing it, or I think you will like it. A search says it is to come though.
Groups. Is this clans or something that said forums also happily solve?
Inventory support. Is that a technical support thing or https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/inventory which is an API for storing a remote save really.
Linux/Mac. For the 10 people trying this sort of thing I agree Epic seeing several games drop Linux and OSX support to focus on windows for the time being could sting a bit.
Loyalty program. Apparently both lack such a thing.
Marketplace/Item trading. I remember when people were getting upset at the Diablo 3 auction house. How times have changed. Anyway nice little API I guess but nothing I would not expect a half competent dev to be able to whip up in an afternoon for their game.
Mod distribution. Has https://www.moddb.com/ exploded while I was not looking?
Security issues. Everybody seems to have these and Steam has had plenty of howlers over the years.
Offline play. That image is out of date it seems as apparently EGS has had it for nearly half a year at this point.
Overlay. Whatever that is both seem to have it.
Paid for exclusives. Again I object to the term exclusive here as it is nothing like it was on consoles -- I can't play my megadrive games on my SNES, an identical PC (give or take the Linux and OSX types) can play the same game though without any extra hardware, subscriptions or radical software changes. Also because every game available on Steam is available on other platforms?
Player count data. Nice to have, and presumably a good tell of how much actual buzz a game has. Not particularly what I would call essential but I can see it being a downside.
Refunds both have, don't know if one is particularly nicer than the other.
Regional pricing. Apparently Epic have something now, though not quite as robust as Steam which is happy to region lock Russian versions for the poor bastards in the Baltics. I can see why it would be a concern to some (not for the purposes of this Shenmue lark) but at the same time secondary markets and all that -- if you are doing it to maybe get a few pennies and tip a few away from the pirate life so that one day when their economies grow up to be big and shiny that they will use you it is a fine plan, though not one I would say waste too much time on right now.
Screenshots. Was there a mass breakage of print screen buttons and capture software when I was not paying attention?
Streaming. Never particularly found it to be great from Steam but I can see why some would care for it, and while I already mentioned some of the OS level stuff from microsoft (RDP is good stuff) I agree MS keeps it a bit gated off from some versions of their OS (probably not those gamers are using as the memory limits of those are probably too low for them but there is scope for it not to be). I don't know what I am particularly suggesting for people here though as in most cases a large HDMI cable does what I need.
Subscription service. Apparently both lack it.
Trading cards then. Are we defending lootboxes now?
Two factor auth. I recall the magic bullet thinking that led to 2fa becoming popular the other year. I would not say leave it but I am not going to decry its absence here either. That said apparently they do have it, and even offered a nice little $10 voucher to incentivise people to use it.
Universal controller support. So for those that don't use one of the common controllers they have an option. I am not sure what the kids are using these days but is joy2key still going?
User Created Guides. There used to be this little site called gamefaqs...
User Profiles. Is this part of the see and be seen thing?
User Reviews. The initial hubub over the lack of reviews was an interesting one to me. I agree that not housing it inside speaks to a certain approach, and it is not like Steam does not have problems with bad reviews and bad policies on reviews (what was that stuff about deleting reviews mentioning the DRM and activities of the devs outside the games the other week?). However I refer back to the billion games and review sites strewn about the internet and beyond. Apparently it is also to come at some point.
Version rollback support. Most devs have pushed the latest versions for a while now but a lack of this, especially if old versions can be not obtained elsewhere, is something I would note as a negative. I like messing with older versions and playing with glitches, or possibly having it work if support for hardware was dropped or a new update breaks things.
VR support. Is that VR fad still going?
Wish lists. Along with gifting that would be a missed trick.

That would appear to be that picture done. While it did include a few things that both lack I am not sure if it is still cherry picked in some way but I will not assume malice or incompetence here as I lack evidence.





DBlaze said:


> Because you make promises and then back out of it. I'm not sure if you ever had any promises broken to you, specially when you paid for it, but usually that tends to upset people, idk.
> 
> On the note of epic store, i'm not a fan of how mr. Sweeney handles his arguments about competition being healthy, while all he does is force a division by buying up exclusive access on his store (timed or not), he's a massive hypocrite at best.
> If his store is so great for developers / publishers, whatever gets the biggest cut, then why don't they go to that store voluntarily, instead of having to be bought?


I believe they call it opportunity cost, something Epic also seems to be willing to pay for (the whole make up the difference thing). Not to mention if it is "exclusive" to them then people don't have the easy option -- have you ever just bought something on Amazon or whatever rather than going to the vendor's own site despite the vendor probably being cheaper? Same deal.


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## Ericthegreat (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> Yes, and again, a pharmacy doesn't change your prescription, your doctor does.


Again, I'm not saying your wrong, but no it is harder for people to go to another pharmacy, then for you to do a 3 minute download. (Again you are correct, this is bs that now you have to have another store installed)


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## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> Again, I'm not saying your wrong, but no it is harder for people to go to another pharmacy, then for you to do a 3 minute download. (Again you are correct, this is bs that now you have to have another store installed)



But people don't want the launcher on their PC. Rightfully or not they don't trust it. They bought a product with the understanding that it would work with software they do trust(again rightfully or not). Now they can't use the game they paid for without installing something they believe is spyware(their claims not mine).


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## Bimmel (Jul 3, 2019)

1MiinMofo said:


> Would anyone who actually backed this game want a refund at this point if the Epic thing wasn't a very serious issue for them?


Yes. Since I knew the story needed 2-3 more games to finish I wanted a refund.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 3, 2019)

spectral said:


> But people don't want the launcher on their PC. Rightfully or not they don't trust it. They bought a product with the understanding that it would work with software they do trust(again rightfully or not). Now they can't use the game they paid for without installing something they believe is spyware(their claims not mine).


Question at this point.

If Steam is a third party in all this, and not one where you are effectively guaranteed/assured a spot (or better yet spot at a decent deal for you) then even if it were not something I could write off as a minor thing (again same game, same PC, no subscription, no dongle, no major software overhaul necessary) would that be something to consider in all this?

Or if you prefer I am writing a new novel. I say once it is done I will submit it to [insert world leading book publisher] for consideration. If they give me unfavourable terms though, or indeed their rival gives me better, and I pull out of that one then are you in a position to be terribly upset? You are still getting my vision of a novel, that you presumably thought enough of to back at the time.


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## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Question at this point.
> 
> If Steam is a third party in all this, and not one where you are effectively guaranteed/assured a spot (or better yet spot at a decent deal for you) then even if it were not something I could write off as a minor thing (again same game, same PC, no subscription, no dongle, no major software overhaul necessary) would that be something to consider in all this?
> 
> Or if you prefer I am writing a new novel. I say once it is done I will submit it to [insert world leading book publisher] for consideration. If they give me unfavourable terms though, or indeed their rival gives me better, and I pull out of that one then are you in a position to be terribly upset? You are still getting my vision of a novel, that you presumably thought enough of to back at the time.



The difference is without installing software they believe is unsafe they can't use the product. Whereas they bought it for software they did think was safe. Just because to you and actually me, it's a minor thing. That doesn't mean it is to everyone. People really believe the epic launcher is spying on them.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 3, 2019)

spectral said:


> People really believe the epic launcher is spying on them.


Is this the same line of thought that led to that kinect thing the other year?


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## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Is this the same line of thought that led to that kinect thing the other year?


And how easily people are ready to believe the Huawei, Kaspersky BS when someone in government has beef with whatever country pisses then off at the time. At the moment people are being told China is bad and spying on us, a chinese company has a large stake in Epic so therefore epic is spying.


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## Armadillo (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> I can see why some would enjoy the features Valve provides. Consider my words here an open invitation for anybody that cares  to sell me on why Valve's, usually pretty easily replicated, efforts are indeed so valuable as to have their absence noted in all this.




Why? Why do people need to "sell you" on them? Other people find value enough in them for it to be noted as a problem with the Epic launcher for them. Why can't you just accept you place a different value on them to others? Instead of constantly "tell me why" just so you can say "easily replicated" not a big deal.




FAST6191 said:


> That said I am still at something of a loss for why people want to go after Epic.



Really? Still. After people constantly telling you why. You are a still at a loss? Really? Sure disagree with their reasons, claim it's not a big deal, but still at loss, really?



FAST6191 said:


> So GOG have further restrictions on top of nominally being DRM free. Don't see what that has to do with the abstract concept being contemplated.



Not just gog. Who sells digital stuff and permits you to resell then?

Not just "they can't stop me" because it's drm free, who actually lets you sell it properly then. So you sell it and lose access to the original, same as selling a physical copy.


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 3, 2019)

I know everyone is talking about getting refunds and all that, but can I just say how ugly and not-Ryo/Shen Hua or whatever the girl's name in the second one is (who shows up in the first but never appears in front of Ryo's face in the actual campaign) look here? Like, I remember seeing earlier images for the KS and Shen Hua actually looked like she did in the original games years ago. Here, she just looks like a different person, like they had to recast an actor or something.

Not to mention, Ryo looks...derpy. There's no other way to put it! He has that cross-eye thing going on, and it's crazy! Like, I was skeptical myself of this game, don't get me wrong, but in between everything from the lofty promises, being told that this game wouldn't be the finale that people have been waiting for (like there's ever gonna be a full-fledged Shenmue 4 after this shit that Yu and Deep Silver are pulling! Anyone else remember Deep Silver backing Mighty No. 9 and that it had nothing to do with ROTN? IDK, I don't see a pattern here. /s), and the assets that look...unfinished. I know, "this is not representative of the final product," but that's just the point: usually, you show a trailer off of the things that you want people to be excited for. Can you imagine if Sega showed off the difference between the Saturn and DC versions when the Saturn version was cancelled, and said that what you're seeing of the DC version isn't representative of the final product? It'd look goofy!

I know IGA did this with Bloodstained (tried the Switch port after completing the game on PC via GOG, the alternative to Steam that I'd personally support over the fucking EGS, and hooo boi...), but he was adamant in saying that this is more how they make levels and it came off as more legitimate given this is a guy who's been forced to deal with smaller budget games and make something good out of it even if the finished result ends up using a lot of assets that date back to Rondo Of Blood.

With Shenmue III, maybe it's because I haven't seen much of the later updates, but it looks like your mostly in that village or another village like the one Ryo meets Shen Hua in Shenmue II. That's not very impressive, and if it were any other game than Shenmue, I would tell myself that there's probably more on the way, but based on what I've played of Shenmue I, (I never played Shenmue II outside of running the PAL version on a DC emulator just for benchmarking purposes in terms of DC emulation on a craptop of mine a long time ago), it wouldn't surprise me if you only have one or two main hub areas in the game, with a lot of boring training Ryo would have to do (which raises the question: how the fuck is anyone gonna transfer their save from Shenmue 1 and 2 to 3 for those Mass Effect-esque training stats to carry over, not to mention items from the previous games) while waiting for things to happen, missing other things happening while you go do another thing, getting Virtua Fighter bobbleheads from vending machines to pass the time, etc.. Like, it's unique with the real time mechanic that you can't slow down or speed up in any way in how it tries to be "realistic" with time passing, but when the game series that takes ideas from your original game that a lot of the team that worked on the former game "series" (if it can even be called that) goes and improves on everything the previous two released games at the time did back in the day, and then goes on to get several sequels, spin-offs, movies, TV shows, etc., you know that no one's going to look back on Shenmue outside of being a glorified prototype for the Yakuza games!


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Is this the same line of thought that led to that kinect thing the other year?



It wasn't just the paranoia, though. People just didn't want to pay an extra $100 for the damn thing when the XB1 launched. After an entire year of M$ being all, "you don't like Always Online? Buy a 360 HURR DURR! What's that, a major employee of ours is defending Always Online by being an asshole to critics, thus making Sony look even better after their strategically planned sharing games ad? Psh, we have the Kinect 2.0, because it will make the experience with Xbox One so much better with better detection of when you're in the room, recognize your voice, and allow you to control the TV experience just fine! Games? Of course it's a game system! What, don't you guys have brains?"

Like, Microsoft was just being an asshat that entire year much the same way Sony was going into the PS3. Will history repeat itself with the Sony going into the PS5? IDK, I honestly don't care outside of buying a PS5 for newer exclusive games and the PS4 backwards compatibility provided that Spine and Orbital don't produce impressive results. I have never really got into Microsoft's gaming platform because FPS and their few exclusive offerings that aren't nowadays have never appealed to yours truly. At least, back in the day, they had Ninja Gaiden and some other stuff other than FPSes like Fable and a few others, but it always felt like everything they offered was already on PC in one form or another, usually with better graphics, controls, the works. Either way, if I remember the part about Kinect 2.0 waking up when you enter the room, yeah, I could see why some people, _especially _nowadays with how much politics has become interwoven with how we interact with each other on the main social media pages, are getting scared of people spying on them. We already know the main social media networks do it. With how much Microsoft and Sony are becoming echo chambers much like certain college campuses in ways not unlike what was shown on many a YT video in 2016, you're telling me they ain't gonna start logging everything you say and do for when the "Community and Diversity Manager" and their underlings scan what you say, they won't try to ban your account and all purchases you've made up to that point? Really?

I'm normally not the untrusting type, but with how certain people have been "de-platformed" or have lost access to money they worked hard for because some card carrier didn't like what they said, you can't not tell me we aren't entering a world akin to that of 1984, 30+ years later? I know, "but some of those speakers were extremists!" And? Should the 1st Amendment become null and void just because someone got "triggered" that you aren't embracing Everything You Learn and Conform to In College That's Totally Applicable To the Real World 101 like a puppet? Does the Federal government, either explicitly or implicitly, need to do everything in peoples' lives to help them live when people need to be individually responsible not just for themselves, but for those around them who'd become swayed by actual extremists to help them make sure they don't fall into something that's actually extreme and dangerous not only to themselves, but for those around them? Fact is, people are becoming more attracted to extreme solutions after years of being encouraged to be PC as opposed speaking their mind. People want to actually say what's on their mind, which often times isn't as extreme as people like to make it out to be. Yes, there's always going to be that Boomer who says something dated, but what can you honestly expect? With my parents, they associate long hair (which they define as going slightly over the ears, blame Independent Fundamental Baptist culture on that) with the Hippies because that's what they remember from when they were teenagers. They know how to do the basics with a computer and the like, and they're helpful and open minded in spite of their associations and the way they can act at times, but the moment one of them says something like, "women should stay at home while the man goes earns the bread" they're associated with the likes of Steven Anderson, the Duggars, and their crowds when my parents are nothing at all like either?

My point is, in this Internet age, where everyone is fed opinions, hot takes, and stories that may or may not present all of the facts truthfully or dishonestly, you can't truly claim to know everything and have good enough judgement, individual Internet denizens, about everything when a lot of the companies, agencies, and other organizations that feed you all of this information are working for only one group's benefit at the end of the day: themselves. So weigh everything, ask tough questions that demand honesty and integrity, don't just take everything laying down, because when you don't, we get shit like Diablo Immortal, Mighty No. 9, Shenmue III in this state, the XB1 (which doesn't even have a library of "exclusives" (whatever the fuck that means in this industry in 2019) to fall back on like the PS3 did in the 7th generation of consoles) the PS3 from 2006-2010, Facebook spying on people, and other things some of us tech users don't want or care for.


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## Glyptofane (Jul 3, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> How is it a bigger deal in other industries, it's still money exchanged for a product.


Great and simple point. This is all that needs to be said about it really.

Oops, quoted the wrong post. I meant your one about false advertising.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 3, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> Why? Why do people need to "sell you" on them? Other people find value enough in them for it to be noted as a problem with the Epic launcher for them. Why can't you just accept you place a different value on them to others? Instead of constantly "tell me why" just so you can say "easily replicated" not a big deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If they manage to sell me on the virtues of Steam then they have the good feelings that come along with changing someone's mind or whatever. Are we not into rather metaphysical concepts at this point? Failing that forums, kind of noted for having discussions on them.
I happily accept I place a different value on things (tools, time and talent and all that), but I want to understand the position of others and asking why and can we get some reasoning/justifications for such mindsets is kind of how that is done. As far as I can see though most of the things are trivially replicated by extant technologies that don't even require so much as a hex editor to install and configure.

People have provided me with reasons. I have yet to find any especially good though, or at least warranting of the position many find themselves in. At one point it was noted that Epic's CEO is a raging arsehole but so is every CEO and we seem to get along OK with things anyway. To go all pitchforks and torches over that, and the reasons thus far provided, seems a bit strange, as do the other reasons thus far provided. Maybe someone really does get such great value out of Steam trading cards and had talked about how they were that they are now disappointed not being able to (initially?) enjoy it.

I probably should also refer back to the earlier comment wherein I noted that that the "I'm at a loss", "explain," "tell me why", "sell me on a concept" type phrasing is an attempt to get people to think through why they hold the positions they do. It might be like when we debate religious types and "you will never get the hardcore" but if the as yet undecided get to see other lines of though then I am OK with that. That said I truly am at a loss for why you seemingly find this style of phrasing so infuriating.

On the final bit no idea about what, if any, otherwise DRM free game sellers allowing resale in their enforceable T&Cs. Still don't find it especially relevant, though "lose access" might be something of a red herring -- just the same as I can dump my copy of barbie horse adventures and sell it on tomorrow then one can presumably... fail to destroy a copy of the installer. While I am quite content with the honour system I imagine the most likely iteration (unless we experience some kind of free the MP3s moment again) will be some kind of ledger, though it does not have to be so. Not where we are going with this one though.




Silent_Gunner said:


> It wasn't just the paranoia, though. People just didn't want to pay an extra $100 for the damn thing when the XB1 launched. After an entire year of M$ being all, "you don't like Always Online? Buy a 360 HURR DURR! What's that, a major employee of ours is defending Always Online by being an asshole to critics, thus making Sony look even better after their strategically planned sharing games ad? Psh, we have the Kinect 2.0, because it will make the experience with Xbox One so much better with better detection of when you're in the room, recognize your voice, and allow you to control the TV experience just fine! Games? Of course it's a game system! What, don't you guys have brains?"
> 
> Like, Microsoft was just being an asshat that entire year much the same way Sony was going into the PS3. Will history repeat itself with the Sony going into the PS5? IDK, I honestly don't care outside of buying a PS5 for newer exclusive games and the PS4 backwards compatibility provided that Spine and Orbital don't produce impressive results. I have never really got into Microsoft's gaming platform because FPS and their few exclusive offerings that aren't nowadays have never appealed to yours truly. At least, back in the day, they had Ninja Gaiden and some other stuff other than FPSes like Fable and a few others, but it always felt like everything they offered was already on PC in one form or another, usually with better graphics, controls, the works. Either way, if I remember the part about Kinect 2.0 waking up when you enter the room, yeah, I could see why some people, _especially _nowadays with how much politics has become interwoven with how we interact with each other on the main social media pages, are getting scared of people spying on them. We already know the main social media networks do it. With how much Microsoft and Sony are becoming echo chambers much like certain college campuses in ways not unlike what was shown on many a YT video in 2016, you're telling me they ain't gonna start logging everything you say and do for when the "Community and Diversity Manager" and their underlings scan what you say, they won't try to ban your account and all purchases you've made up to that point? Really?
> 
> ...



I would not argue that the Xbone launch and run up to it was not a cock up of epic proportions (they were in such an amazing position after the 360 and are only now sort of maybe recovering). However if they were going to sell the kinect 2 then having it on every console was the way to go about it -- mediocre peripheral install base pretty much means mediocre sales of anything that uses it. They failed to sell it, got undercut and failed to read the market well enough on the always on stuff, shot themselves in the foot and decided to give themselves a matching set just for fun with some atrocious marketing, and as a result of all that got justifiably burned hard.

As far as xbox exclusives then the 360, especially the 360 as it stood during it all (eventually between sequels and later ports the PS3 more or less caught up), did really well. I had a thread on the matter a while back.
https://gbatemp.net/threads/ps3-and-360-exclusives-a-discussion.360416/
Compare the original xbox and the PS2 and no contest for a lot of things unless you were into some fairly specific games, wanted the tippy top non PC versions of something or were content to miss out on a fair bit but still play most of the gameplay styles of the day. Compare the 360 to the PS3 and I would expect most that are not fans of truly mediocre Japanese RPGs to have picked the 360 for most of it, with the only saving aspects being free online for the PS3 (oh happy days) or those people that somehow got along with the PS3 controller better, to say nothing of the hacks the 360 enjoyed throughout its life vs the final gasp of the PS3.

As for the rest then sure seems like some dark times ahead and tech companies have long since departed from the old school hacker ideals that allowed things to rise in the first place. All that said though is it just misplaced mistrust that sees people going after Epic then?


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## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> If they manage to sell me on the virtues of Steam then they have the good feelings that come along with changing someone's mind or whatever. Are we not into rather metaphysical concepts at this point? Failing that forums, kind of noted for having discussions on them.
> I happily accept I place a different value on things (tools, time and talent and all that), but I want to understand the position of others and asking why and can we get some reasoning/justifications for such mindsets is kind of how that is done. As far as I can see though most of the things are trivially replicated by extant technologies that don't even require so much as a hex editor to install and configure.
> 
> People have provided me with reasons. I have yet to find any especially good though, or at least warranting of the position many find themselves in. At one point it was noted that Epic's CEO is a raging arsehole but so is every CEO and we seem to get along OK with things anyway. To go all pitchforks and torches over that, and the reasons thus far provided, seems a bit strange, as do the other reasons thus far provided. Maybe someone really does get such great value out of Steam trading cards and had talked about how they were that they are now disappointed not being able to (initially?) enjoy it.
> ...



They seem to hate every new client as it launches, then they gradually gain more acceptance then everyone moves onto the new thing they hate. People absolutely hated Origin and Uplay with a passion. Many still do.


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## Bladexdsl (Jul 3, 2019)

spectral said:


> People absolutely hated Origin and Uplay with a passion. Many still do.


because they are still both garbage


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## spectral (Jul 3, 2019)

Bladexdsl said:


> because they are still both garbage


Honestly I'd be hard pressed to say whats better about steam now. Steam if anything has become a bloated mess.


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## SapphireExile (Jul 3, 2019)

So many people complaining about EGS as if they're getting paid by Valve to be on Steam.

It's a store. If Steam didn't fuck the little guys, this wouldn't be happening in the first place. Why is it that a AAA studio gets LESS taken from them for selling more? If anything indie games should receive more of the cut.

But everyone wants to be a white knight protecting their platform. You fail to understand that at the core of game development is money.

If your employer took 30% of your entire pay cut, then another company offered you 10% cuts at the same salary, would you stay with the same company?  That's what's happening here.

My Steam account is valued around 22k MSRP,  yet I still use EGS, uPlay, etc daily. 

Game development firms are looking at profit first. But keep trying to protect Steam and bitch about things that mean nothing. So what if a game is an EGS exclusive? Why aren't you bitching at Sony and Microsoft to release their exclusives elsewhere?  How about nearly every first party EA game being Origin exclusive, and most third parties? 

Just Jesus Christ. This idiocy has gone on long enough. Yes, it's bullshit that the Shenmue devs changed what the promised, and they should be reprimanded, but bitching JUST because it's an EGS exclusive is stupid.


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## Armadillo (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> If they manage to sell me on the virtues of Steam then they have the good feelings that come along with changing someone's mind or whatever. Are we not into rather metaphysical concepts at this point? Failing that forums, kind of noted for having discussions on them.



It's not really a discussion though when it just goes around and around in circles. You ask why people don't like Epic, people tell you, just for you to keep posting "but why".



FAST6191 said:


> As far as I can see though most of the things are trivially replicated by extant technologies that don't even require so much as a hex editor to install and configure.



A lot, but not all and certainly not with the convienace and reliablity of Steam. Lets take two that are "easily replicated"

Universal controller support

So you can use any controller you like, rather than just something that is xinput. Can you replicate it, sure, is it as convineant, no.

X360ce
xpadder
DS4windows (something like can't, can't remember the name)
joy2key

Sure some combination will get likely get it working in your game, but it's not guaranteed. Maybe it can't hook the game, why? now you have to troubleshoot that. Maybe there's an incompatablity, again, why? more hassle. Maybe the anti-cheat is blocking it, then you're fucked.

On the other, Steam controller support. Universal, set it up once and it works on every game on steam.

Maybe you don't care about messing around with other shit, but just having it work means a lot to people.

Cloud saves.

Again, sure you can manually back up to where ever. That means:

Find the save for whatever game. Some are in documents, some are in my games, some are in the game folder, others are in the Steam folder. Work out where it is and what's it called, the you can back it up. Now remember to back up your save everytime you finish. Now do it for every game you play and it quickly becomes a big hassle.

Steam.

Launch game, save is backed up when you finish.


Then there is stuff you can't replicate.

Take big picture mode.

Lots of people play on tvs now. You can kill explorer and have the system boot straight into it, just like a console. Steam is also the only storefront with 100% controller support for everything. If you can do it on keyboard/mouse, you can do it on controller. The others stores have limited if any controller support.

You can't replicate that on any other store.





FAST6191 said:


> People have provided me with reasons. I have yet to find any especially good though, or at least warranting of the position many find themselves in. At one point it was noted that Epic's CEO is a raging arsehole but so is every CEO and we seem to get along OK with things anyway. To go all pitchforks and torches over that, and the reasons thus far provided, seems a bit strange, as do the other reasons thus far provided. Maybe someone really does get such great value out of Steam trading cards and had talked about how they were that they are now disappointed not being able to (initially?) enjoy it.



Why does it matter if you find the reasons to warrant the position people take? No one is out to convince you.

You ask "why", no reason to think you aren't asking in good faith, you get your answer, just to be at a loss again and then keep asking, because it doesn's satisfy you.




FAST6191 said:


> I probably should also refer back to the earlier comment wherein I noted that that the "I'm at a loss", "explain," "tell me why", "sell me on a concept" type phrasing is an attempt to get people to think through why they hold the positions they do. It might be like when we debate religious types and "you will never get the hardcore" but if the as yet undecided get to see other lines of though then I am OK with that. That said I truly am at a loss for why you seemingly find this style of phrasing so infuriating.



People do think it through though. People know why they hold these positions, they tell you, just for you to go back to well you can sort of bodge the same with X, so it doesn't matter. Why do people hate epic. You want others to think it through, but you give Steam features a cursory glance and because you can bodge something that sorta works similar, but not as well, proclaim it's the same.

Infuriating, no. Tiresome yes. Every topic with Epic we get the same old "it's just a launcher, why people mad", hiding it behind "just asking questions and wanting people to think about it" doesn't change it.



FAST6191 said:


> On the final bit no idea about what, if any, otherwise DRM free game sellers allowing resale in their enforceable T&Cs. Still don't find it especially relevant, though "lose access" might be something of a red herring -- just the same as I can dump my copy of barbie horse adventures and sell it on tomorrow then one can presumably... fail to destroy a copy of the installer. While I am quite content with the honour system I imagine the most likely iteration (unless we experience some kind of free the MP3s moment again) will be some kind of ledger, though it does not have to be so. Not where we are going with this one though.



It's relevant because ,you wanted to use no reselling as stick to beat Valve with, when it's all digital sellers. Not just valve.

Lose access is releavant, because that's "reselling". Sure with physical you could make a backup and sell it on, but haven't "resold" it in that case, you've made yourself a pirate copy and sold the original. No one would argue that's right.

If all the matters to you is you can resell it and some sort of honour system. Then buy physical steam copies/codes, don't activate and use a cracked copy instead. Your free to "resell" your steam copy then and delete the cracked one afterwards.

Both are basically the same, using your "honour" system, but I think when it comes to Valve that won't satisfy you.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 3, 2019)

spectral said:


> They seem to hate every new client as it launches, then they gradually gain more acceptance then everyone moves onto the new thing they hate. People absolutely hated Origin and Uplay with a passion. Many still do.


Except that's not entirely the case here. It's not because it's a "new launcher".. Personally? I can't care what launchers come out anymore. Everybody wants their piece and that's fine. However, I can not and will not openly support Epic's strong-arm tactics to gain a place in the market. "It's just business" is also another empty defense people throw around. If the Epic store ran better, offered better security and wasn't run by Sweeney? There would be no issue. At that point it'd just be "another launcher" and these arguments would be Moot.

Granted, it seems people here are more set in defending why Steam is the better option. Not why Epic is hurting the gaming community. Maybe that's why I feel out place. Ha!


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 3, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> It's not really a discussion though when it just goes around and around in circles. You ask why people don't like Epic, people tell you, just for you to keep posting "but why".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be fair, those are the features that I would say that elevate Steam up above other options, but the cloud save thing, outside of being automatic, is a feature on pretty much every system that I'm aware of. Maybe some are automatic, maybe they aren't, I haven't really kept up with all of the services as my money is tight with all of the responsibilities I have nowadays. Home theater support is nice as well as someone who barely plays multiplayer games online these days, let alone competitively enough to where I'd need a true 144hz TV for the experience.

The thing that drew yours truly to PC gaming was simply how much more "open" it was; no restrictions on filesystem use, you can do whatever you want, and it's all A-OK. The only problem until I got a modern PC was the hardware I had until 2015 essentially made gaming at any point for games past 2007 that weren't your typical Flash games or fangames an impossibility because trying to convince your (very fiscally conservative) parents to buy you a gaming PC is difficult and saving up money for a console is a lot easier when you don't have a consistent form of income until I decided to try and save up money for a PC that was definitely built on a budget, but had a lot of upgradability that kept yours truly satisfied until he decided to upgrade to something that'd support the amount of cores needed for games that weren't cross-generation releases or por...*coughs* ahem, I mean..."remasters" of previous generation games.


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## Armadillo (Jul 3, 2019)

Silent_Gunner said:


> To be fair, those are the features that I would say that elevate Steam up above other options, but the cloud save thing, outside of being automatic, is a feature on pretty much every system that I'm aware of. Maybe some are automatic, maybe they aren't, I haven't really kept up with all of the services as my money is tight with all of the responsibilities I have nowadays. Home theater support is nice as well as someone who barely plays multiplayer games online these days, let alone competitively enough to where I'd need a true 144hz TV for the experience.



Epic has no cloud saves, your right, pretty much everyone else has them, Epic doesn't yet.


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 3, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> Epic has no cloud saves, your right, pretty much everyone else has them, Epic doesn't yet.





You know, for games where you have to unlock a bunch of things, (a lot of older fighting games and Smash (especially Ultimate, GOD Spirits just dragged on and on. Really wish they made a better version of Subspace Emissary with more Nintendo enemies and locations as opposed to generic robots from generic 3DS Max/Maya models), some racing games, and any other games where things are locked behind hours of gameplay) a cloud backup can save you a lot of time spent and restore any progress made.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 3, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> It's not really a discussion though when it just goes around and around in circles. You ask why people don't like Epic, people tell you, just for you to keep posting "but why".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Circular discussion does get a bit draining when the same empty reasons get trotted out again and again. I am still OK to discuss though.

So Steam is marginally more convenient if devs play into their APIs? Otherwise though it can still be replicated happily enough. Give or take the vendor lock in I could count that as a plus, how much of one it is though is usually where I find myself pondering things. Prior to Steam really taking off then most new games seemed to use the xbox 360 controller just fine, more or less plug and play. Older stuff was harder but I guess it still is.

Except it is not every time -- you can happily point your chosen backup service at the folder in question (or redirect folders around the shop). If Steam compels devs to tell it where saves go and accordingly can back them up that indeed is a marginal convenience over possibly/probably having to set a new folder in the list when you install a new game if it matters for that game.

Big picture stuff. I said before that a 10 foot UI is quite nice to have, though again it is a matter of small conveniences and how much they are truly valued here. The same games get played, and if a TV connected is the entertainment machine then there is probably a remote involved and those usually have a mouse if somehow a simple joypad to fake mouse script is not a thing, or jumping up for 10 seconds to play on a normal mouse and keyboard.

If the sum total of those handful of conveniences is indeed enough to get upset enough to demand refunds and whatever else I am seeing then I would probably say I hope people get less lazy and/or get thicker skin as applicable.

I want people to act logically. Some seem to want to convince me and I am wanting to be convinced -- discussion and debate is fun.

I resent the accusation of bad faith -- I will openly state I am operating in it as far as I am concerned, and going with the "any one experiment can prove me wrong" thing to underpin it all.

We get it every topic because I am still struggling to find a good reason for the extent of the dislike that is on display, one (or more) that I could use as a justification to join the Epic is the suxxorz and should be laughed out of existence brigade..

Again I was talking an abstract, one already available in a technical sense  (I can assign ownership of a document on any number of office collaboration platforms, file storage, page ownership...). I agree that selling a copy of an IP type work necessarily involves giving up access to that instance of the work, that was the point of the barbie thing. What exists in the present for games is largely immaterial here for the point under discussion. Valve turning around and allowing resale would indeed clear up many of my issues with them. There is still the monopoly and censoring thing to handle but the amount of good will that would incur is hard to understate. As far as honour systems go I like such things but if they wanted to do an ownership ledger (possibly with something like the domain transfer codes so I can generate and send as necessary) and disallow me a download link or whatever then that would also work. Similarly while I have arranged accounts be sold and accounts be created for individual games to allow resale for others if Valve catch wind of such things they have historically cracked down on such things which makes it a workaround for lack of resale, but not a good one -- it is not actually that I care to resell games I own but want to be able to buy those from others wishing to sell it and Valve's setup does rather make that one harder.




Memoir said:


> Except that's not entirely the case here. It's not because it's a "new launcher".. Personally? I can't care what launchers come out anymore. Everybody wants their piece and that's fine. However, I can not and will not openly support Epic's strong-arm tactics to gain a place in the market. "It's just business" is also another empty defense people throw around. If the Epic store ran better, offered better security and wasn't run by Sweeney? There would be no issue. At that point it'd just be "another launcher" and these arguments would be Moot.
> 
> Granted, it seems people here are more set in defending why Steam is the better option. Not why Epic is hurting the gaming community. Maybe that's why I feel out place. Ha!



How is "It's just business" an empty defence? If you are a weaker player in a market then you either build out your own product (time, money and effort, one or more of which you may lack), buy something else in (how many companies are started with the intention of eventually being bought out? As far as tech goes it is probably the majority), offer better value than your competitors or possibly make your competitors have a harder time of sourcing things for themselves, especially if they are effectively a monopoly already.
As far as strong arm goes. Do we have any evidence of them saying "nice looking game you have there, would be a shame if it never made it to market" or something similar? Nothing I have seen thus far particularly supports a claim of strong arm. Other than lessening support or revoking a license for the unreal engine I am not even sure what they could do, and I doubt they would do either of those.


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## eyeliner (Jul 3, 2019)

People love to praise Steam as a *game launcher* but rant about the other features most never use and Epic game launcher doesn't provide.
I use every client for a thing:
To launch a damn game.
I don't care for community features, print screens and other gamification features imposed on launchers just to look good on a diagramto convince people it's great.

I want it simple, and simpler launchers are good for me.


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## Armadillo (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Circular discussion does get a bit draining when the same empty reasons get trotted out again and again. I am still OK to discuss though.
> 
> So Steam is marginally more convenient if devs play into their APIs? Otherwise though it can still be replicated happily enough. Give or take the vendor lock in I could count that as a plus, how much of one it is though is usually where I find myself pondering things. Prior to Steam really taking off then most new games seemed to use the xbox 360 controller just fine, more or less plug and play. Older stuff was harder but I guess it still is.



Of course they used the 360 controller fine. The 360 controller is xinput rather than dinput.

I literally said the universal controller lets you use anything, rather than just stuff that is xinput. And your response is, well before Steam a 360 controller (xinput) could be used anyway. There's other controllers people want to use that aren't xinput, that's the point and steam facilitates that easier and more reliably that a handful of other programs that may or may not work with whatever game.



FAST6191 said:


> Except it is not every time -- you can happily point your chosen backup service at the folder in question (or redirect folders around the shop). If Steam compels devs to tell it where saves go and accordingly can back them up that indeed is a marginal convenience over possibly/probably having to set a new folder in the list when you install a new game if it matters for that game.



Sure if you automate it, then you don't have to manually do it. That's still yet another piece of software you now have to run/setup, vs it just works.

Even once you have done that, you still have to go set it for every save location unless you want to point it just at my documents/whatever folder the saves may be and have other stuff backed up as well and not just your saves and even then that's just some of the saves. No avoiding doing it multiple times because saves are all over the place.

No one argued that it's not convineance issue. Shocking, people like things that are convineant, they like things that just work, rather than replicating something sort of similar with another program.

Yet again people liking convineance and stuff just working flys right over you and lands back in "well I can bodge something sorta similar" that works sort of the same, but not quite as well.




FAST6191 said:


> Big picture stuff. I said before that a 10 foot UI is quite nice to have, though again it is a matter of small conveniences and how much they are truly valued here. The same games get played, and if a TV connected is the entertainment machine then there is probably a remote involved and those usually have a mouse if somehow a simple joypad to fake mouse script is not a thing, or jumping up for 10 seconds to play on a normal mouse and keyboard.
> 
> If the sum total of those handful of conveniences is indeed enough to get upset enough to demand refunds and whatever else I am seeing then I would probably say I hope people get less lazy and/or get thicker skin as applicable.



So something that can't be replicated to the same extent and it's just boiled down to I hope people wouldn't be so lazy.




FAST6191 said:


> I want people to act logically.




No you want people to act "logically" according to you. According to the bar you've set over whether something is an issue or not.

If people value steams feature set enough, then they are acting logically. You don't, so according to you, others aren't acting logically.




FAST6191 said:


> I resent the accusation of bad faith -- I will openly state I am operating in it as far as I am concerned, and going with the "any one experiment can prove me wrong" thing to underpin it all.



Not an accusation. I said I responded because I assumed you were asking in good faith and actually wanted to know why people dislike epic, that's not an accusation.




FAST6191 said:


> We get it every topic because I am still struggling to find a good reason for the extent of the dislike that is on display, one (or more) that I could use as a justification to join the Epic is the suxxorz and should be laughed out of existence brigade..



A good reason according to you.

You asked why, you get told, it's not good enough so around and around we go. No one says you have to get on the epic hate train.




FAST6191 said:


> What exists in the present for games is largely immaterial here for the point under discussion.



Nah it's not. You are using not selling as a stick to beat valve with because you don't like them. It's not a valve thing, it's a digital distribution thing for games. You just tried to muddy the water with well I can sell drm free stuff even though I'm not supposed to.



FAST6191 said:


> There is still the monopoly and censoring thing to handle but the amount of good will that would incur is hard to understate.



Ah yes, the valve monopoly.

The one where

All of EA's games are on Origin.
Ubisoft games are on Uplay + Steam/Epic.
One of the biggest games in the world (fortnite) is on epic.
Blizzard games are on Battle net
League Of Legends, another huge game, pvp.net launcher.
Bethesda games, bethesda.net as well as Steam.
Microsoft's big games. Windows/xbox store + Steam (soon).

Then you can throw in the huge number of games available drm free on gog.

But yeah, terrible Valve monopoly.


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## Xzi (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Does any development ever go exactly to plan? Minor stuff that does not impact gameplay and leaves it still running on an otherwise identical system... that is petty.


Err...yes?  Every crowdfunded game I've backed that promised Steam keys ended up delivering on that promise.  And I'd say stuff like controller support and reliable offline play support do impact the player experience to a significant degree, but regardless, pettiness doesn't enter the equation.  Bait and switch is no way to run a business.



FAST6191 said:


> And?


And so there's no reason for EGS to exist at all if they aren't providing something for developers that wasn't already being provided.  The 12% split won't be sticking around, as many EGS exclusives are already migrating to the new Win10 Xbox store, and that takes the same industry-standard 30% cut as others.



FAST6191 said:


> Why waste your time becoming the biggest little fish if you can convincingly take a swipe at the king?


Except there's nothing convincing about it, thus the reason Valve hasn't taken any action in response.  Tim Sweeney spends all day digging his own grave on Twitter, and Valve has no reason to destroy their own image in that manner.  'Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake,' I think the quote goes.



FAST6191 said:


> Do you have and workups of the "while streaming" thing? I should be interested to read about that. The Chinese thing is potentially a problem, and reason I could see some want to skip out on it.


One of the high profile occurrences was actually the music artist Drake's Fortnite account getting hacked.

There are at least four other cases of big streamers getting hacked live according to this Youtube video, and I believe I've read about several more occurrences that aren't covered in the video.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 3, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> No you want people to act "logically" according to you. According to the bar you've set over whether something is an issue or not.
> 
> If people value steams feature set enough, then they are acting logically. You don't, so according to you, others aren't acting logically.
> 
> ...



I am content for people to operate within their own parameters. Different people have different levels of risk they are willing to accept, different things they are willing to tolerate.

It is perfectly logical to enjoy what Steam provides. Whether that logic extends to having a little hissy fit because a game is not coming out on that service and demanding a refund is a different matter entirely.

Yes I want a good reason I can get behind to join the Epic games hate train. Thus far I lack one.
While nobody said directly I have to then there are plenty that wonder at my actions in tolerating them, and if people are going to have a nice little hate train I want to know why -- going as far as having said hate train is a fairly radical step.

I am using the lack of resale as a stick to beat anybody that does not offer it, Valve are just one of the targets. Just because none of the big boys have a resale option does not mean it does not exist within legal framework (the ability to resell software has been by many courts all over the world at this point, some are inclined to deem it something other than a simple sale that can be resold, others not so much) or is some kind of insurmountable technical challenge (the gifting thing they already have would function just fine as a basic thing here) means very little here, to say nothing of them having fought it every step of the way despite not having to.

Are we nit picking with the term monopoly again? What percentage of PC game sales do they do? Has getting on there not been something of a make or break thing for game devs for some years now (might be falling a tiny bit out of favour). They are a monopoly in the same way that Microsoft is a monopoly on the operating system market.



Xzi said:


> Err...yes?  Every crowdfunded game I've backed that promised Steam keys ended up delivering on that promise.  And I'd say stuff like controller support and reliable offline play support do impact the player experience to a significant degree, but regardless, pettiness doesn't enter the equation.  Bait and switch is no way to run a business.
> 
> 
> And so there's no reason for EGS to exist at all if they aren't providing something for developers that wasn't already being provided.  The 12% split won't be sticking around, as many EGS exclusives are already migrating to the new Win10 Xbox store, and that takes the same industry-standard 30% cut as others.
> ...



So if they assure offline support and have a reasonable controller API then things are good?

Competition is bad now? 12% being a teaser would be a shame, don't see why people wouldn't jump at it though for the time being and if they have wander back to Valve in the end then no great loss. People keep saying industry-standard cut as if that means anything too -- I thought the whole point of tech was to disrupt things and drive prices down. If people can't deliver an average of 30 gigs for 24% (assuming 6% transaction fees) of a full retail game and run a basic web shop on top of that then something has gone very wrong and we should probably all go back to pressing discs.

Time will tell then. Maybe it is Valve being able to take the not be concerned with the actions of ants thing. Maybe Valve will be caught napping.

Thanks for the links. Will have a look later and try figure out where blame might fall.


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## Deleted-236924 (Jul 3, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Price correction or allowing devs to sell alt versions for less, nominally where either incomes or inclination to pirate make it worth it? It could be considered in pros and cons of the various systems (I believe I did in a previous breakdown of that picture). *All that said I am more likely to tell those regions' economies to get good.*



kek


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## Glyptofane (Jul 3, 2019)

Armadillo said:


> Epic has no cloud saves, your right, pretty much everyone else has them, Epic doesn't yet.


I didn't know this. Even more shitty garbage than I thought. The PC Epic exclusivity almost makes me not want to even buy the PS4 version, but I will. I didn't back this one though. Only things I ever touched in that regard is my failure Switch copy of Bloodstained and the yet to be released The Good Life.


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## Pluupy (Jul 3, 2019)

Just pirate it, honestly. Not worth wrestling with bureaucracy for your refund.


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## Armadillo (Jul 4, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> It is perfectly logical to enjoy what Steam provides. Whether that logic extends to having a little hissy fit because a game is not coming out on that service and demanding a refund is a different matter entirely.



Asking for what you were promised isn't a hissy fit.



FAST6191 said:


> While nobody said directly I have to then there are plenty that wonder at my actions in tolerating them, and if people are going to have a nice little hate train I want to know why -- going as far as having said hate train is a fairly radical step.



Do they wonder. I mean plenty of people have come in with the "only a launcher" & yet no one else had really been dragged on a long conversion. Only reason you have is because you directly asked why multiple times. You also know why, you just refuse to accept it because it's not up to whatever bar you set to ok the outrage.




FAST6191 said:


> I am using the lack of resale as a stick to beat anybody that does not offer it, Valve are just one of the targets. Just because none of the big boys have a resale option does not mean it does not exist within legal framework (the ability to resell software has been by many courts all over the world at this point, some are inclined to deem it something other than a simple sale that can be resold, others not so much) or is some kind of insurmountable technical challenge (the gifting thing they already have would function just fine as a basic thing here) means very little here, to say nothing of them having fought it every step of the way despite not having to.



So you claim. It's a stick to beat everybody, yet so far it's only Valve you have had a problem with. You brought it up against valve originally, made it something against valve. You didn't start out with you don't like digital distribution in general because of no resales, you specifically blamed valve for it. Only now do you pivot to "everyone who doesn't offer it"




FAST6191 said:


> Are we nit picking with the term monopoly again? What percentage of PC game sales do they do? Has getting on there not been something of a make or break thing for game devs for some years now (might be falling a tiny bit out of favour).



Nah we aren't nitpicking. We just aren't twisting it to fit your narrative against valve.

A huge amount of games on the pc platform aren't available only on Steam. I would say the fact that some of the most succesful games on pc, are outside the Steam ecosystem, would mean no, no it's not neccesarily make or break to be on steam either.

The fact that valve commands such a share, despite plenty of games being available elsewhere and a lot of games being offered on Steam + X, and yet still the majority chooses steam, is not a monopoly. It's valve providing a service that people clearly value.


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## ElTacoDestroyer (Jul 4, 2019)

Developers obviously prefer EGS


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## Xzi (Jul 4, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> So if they assure offline support and have a reasonable controller API then things are good?


No, not after Steam keys were promised to backers.  As I said, the issue is still clearly bait and switch, I was just giving examples of what affects the user experience to contradict your statement that 'gameplay is unaffected.'  Hell, EGS doesn't even function in many of the regions/countries that Steam does.  In those regions, offering EGS keys is the same as offering a flaming bag of dog shit.



FAST6191 said:


> Competition is bad now?


Competition is great.  Ensuring that customers have fewer purchasing options is the opposite of a competitive business practice, however.



FAST6191 said:


> People keep saying industry-standard cut as if that means anything too -- I thought the whole point of tech was to disrupt things and drive prices down.


But that isn't Epic's intention, as they only ever complain about Steam, while ignoring the fact that the Win10 Xbox store and console storefronts continue to take the same 30% cut they always have.  They aren't trying to change the whole industry, they're trying to get Steam in particular to adopt an unsustainable cut so that Valve's PC gaming market share will start to drop.  Though he thinks himself clever, Tim Sweeney has been very transparent about this goal.



FAST6191 said:


> Time will tell then. Maybe it is Valve being able to take the not be concerned with the actions of ants thing. Maybe Valve will be caught napping.


Time is entirely on Valve's side.  As exclusivity contracts start to expire, it will be become more and more obvious EGS cannot compete on its own merits.  Not to mention Epic is mismanaging their cash cow, Fortnite, and driving away ever-increasing numbers of players.


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## xdarkx (Jul 4, 2019)

For those that still think this is okay, defending Epic, or think people are overreacting, this whole thing wouldn't be a thing in the first place if Epic didn't buy out this game as exclusivity couple of months before the game will be out.

The dev/publisher did say this game was going to be on Steam just about everywhere other than on the Kickstarter page. That is until the last minute decision made by the publisher to go Epic exclusive.

Backers that selected Steam as their platform as choice before this change are angry because the dev/publisher broke their trust.  Course there are those that do not like EGS in general.

I did not backed this game, but if this were to happen to any games I help backed, I would be pissed as well for breaking my trust.


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## TheMrIron2 (Jul 4, 2019)

People who paid money to see this game happen are totally within reason to get their money back for a breach of trust. In fact, I'd say it's quite fair to boycott Epic and avoid the EGS on moral grounds - or, as my friend put it, "based solely on the honor system".

Also, is nobody going to point out the irony that Xbox was heavily inspired by the Dreamcast and close work was done with the Xbox after the Dreamcast was finished, and yet this game is only coming to PS4/PC?


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## Bladexdsl (Jul 4, 2019)

and the whole internet just got a refund


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## Foxi4 (Jul 5, 2019)

Complaining about which digital storefront your game is delivered by is the single most "first-world" problem on the planet, I do not understand why people are desperate to crown Steam as the people's spaghetti factory on PC. Valve's effective monopoly needed to be broken one way or the other and if deals with Epic are lucrative, developers _should_ take the money and make _more games _with it, that's what I care about.


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## Lazlo52 (Jul 6, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> Complaining about which digital storefront your game is delivered by is the single most "first-world" problem on the planet, I do not understand why people are desperate to crown Steam as the people's spaghetti factory on PC. Valve's effective monopoly needed to be broken one way or the other and if deals with Epic are lucrative, developers _should_ take the money and make _more games _with it, that's what I care about.


I technically have no reason to dislike Epic for stuff like this. Not a single game that's suddenly gone exclusive are games l'd ever buy. What really burns me up, though, is how often it's done only months before the release. And then there's how much they hypocritically bad mouth Valve. Sure, maybe Valve needs to lose some of its monopoly, but why be such dicks all around about it? Don't answer that, though, I've already seen plenty of counter-arguments. I just can't stand how crappy Epic looks throughout all this.

Also, do you really know if developers get the extra money over the publishers? I mean, I haven't seen anyone post a source either way. If it's the developers, then that'd be one more thing I can relax over.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 6, 2019)

Lazlo52 said:


> I technically have no reason to dislike Epic for these reasons. Not a single game that's suddenly gone exclusive are games l'd ever buy. What really burns me up, though, is how often it's done only months before the release. And then there's how much they hypocritically bad mouth Valve. Sure, maybe Valve needs to lose some of its monopoly, but why be such dicks about it? Don't answer that, though, I've already seen plenty of counter-arguments. I just can't stand how crappy Epic looks throughout all this.
> 
> Also, do you really know if developers get the extra money over the publishers? I mean, I haven't seen anyone post a source either way. If it's the developers, then that'd be one more thing I can relax over.


It's certainly an additional revenue stream that takes some pressure off the developers, regardless of whether they get to see a single penny from it or not. Ultimately video games are commercial products intended to make money - there's always a magical "X" value that's the desired ROI. If Epic can cover some of that return on the initial investment, more power to them.

Is their behaviour shitty? Probably. Does their launcher suck? Probably. Do I care? Not in particular, I consider launchers to be bloatware, and I've dropped off the PC gaming master race once running Steam in the background effectively became a requirement, and that was only after years of going through hoops to disable it or somehow go around it. As far as I'm concerned, digital storefronts have one job and one job only - sell games at prices that are appealing to the consumers. As long as Epic can do that, they're doing their job.

Now, I myself am in two minds about this as I absolutely hate games that are "exclusive", it alienates large swathes of gamers from enjoying them, but on the PC landscape it's a little bit different than on console - installing a different launcher is not an additional investment. That, and the exclusivity is timed, so it's less of a problem, at least to me.

All in all this is an argument over which of the two evils is better for you. From where I'm sitting, the two evils should be in a constant state of competition as that's what ultimately benefits consumers. People who don't like Epic's strategy should just vote with their wallets, which is simple enough.


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## KingVamp (Jul 6, 2019)

I'm all in for the option to sell your game, but doesn't PC get a bunch of discounts anyway?


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