# Is all masculinity toxic?



## Deleted User (Jan 30, 2019)

Please keep it civil.


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## Coolsonickirby (Jan 30, 2019)

I'm wondering if this should be in the EOF cause it seems like a joke of a title. You can't say everything in a certain group is toxic. If a couple of humans are toxic, then should I call humanity toxic itself?

Simple answer to your question: No.


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## gameboy (Jan 30, 2019)

do women really want their men to be a p*ssy? explain OP


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## kuwanger (Jan 30, 2019)

Masculinity is not toxic, but there is toxic masculinity.  Femininity is not toxic, but there is toxic femininity.  The end.


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## linuxares (Jan 30, 2019)

Humans are toxic, not some special "sort of people".


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## jurassicplayer (Jan 30, 2019)

Ur all toxic, I hate u all.

- With love,
Jurassicplayer


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## The Catboy (Jan 30, 2019)

The greatest misinterpretation to the term "toxic masculinity" is that it applies to masculinity as a whole when that isn't the case. 
Toxic masculinity refers to the cultural idea that being masculine means confirming to one standard of masculinity, which is often a cultural abusive form that suppresses male emotions, gender expression/exploration, sexuality, and basically requires men to fall into the cultural norm or be hated. This is what is referred to as "toxic masculinity" and it a problem with real effects on the mental health of mostly young men.


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## FAST6191 (Jan 30, 2019)

Gendered toxicity is a term I see thrown around from time to time but nobody seems to have come remotely close to either codifying it or giving me some kind of flow chart/diagnostic pathway I can use to narrow it down. Similarly I have not properly checked but I have not see it in any kind of diagnostic manual for psychiatry types, and while they would not need to have one for it to be a useful term it makes it then a general language term and thus a bit more fuzzy by nature. Many times, in fact the overwhelming majority of times, I also see it used by cretins and they have it encompass perfectly fine behaviours*.
Owing to the mob from the previous sentence I find the phrase somewhat meaningless and anybody that does care to use something that might fall into that world will have to spell it out, which is a pity as shorthand is supposed to save us from having to explain at length.

*not even some kind of debatable edge case or matter of degree but in response to a discussion wherein it was mentioned that my main hobbies/activities/things I fill my days with are building stuff, playing with tools, exploring and computer games.

There probably are behaviours endemic to, or at least commonly associated with, either gender that if left untempered, undirected or unfocused would often lead to bad places or behaviours detrimental to social cohesion, aka a socially toxic environment.

To answer the question of the title. I fail to see what masculinity itself is inherently or predominantly something that might be described as toxic. Those that would take it further than that and call for stereotypically gendered traits to be ablated from someone's being, or otherwise demonised, as a matter of course/upbringing is abhorrent to me, and something that I would say we already have evidence for bad outcomes when trying to achieve.


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## Bullseye (Jan 30, 2019)

No, masculinity is a trait for men. Being masculine has nothing to do with being educated or knowing how to treat others.


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## Nerdtendo (Jan 30, 2019)

I actually wanted to make the same post but didn't.

No, masculinity is a good thing. Men and women are not equal. They ecxel and stumble at different things. Men are great at dirty work and providing for others. They also, for better and worse, are quicker decision makers. They fail at things involving humanity.  For example, sensitivity, planning ahead, considering everyone in a certain situation, etc. Women on the other hand, are great at those things. Compassion, prioritizing, seeing all opinions and understanding everyone etc. However they're not built for grunt work or making decisions where not everyone wins. 

As a side note-- and this is controversal-- I think the best way to "make it" is to have a partner of the opposite sex who has natural abilities that your sex naturally struggles with. Consider the story of Esther. When the king wanted to kill all the Jews, Esther, knowing that this was wrong, decided to stop it. She knew she was in no position to overthrow her husband or run a country, so she used her natural persuasion as a women to convince the king to spare the Jewish people.

*Genders are only toxic when one thinks they're superior to the other.*


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Jan 30, 2019)

It's toxic when people tell me to "Man up" as a means of insult just cause as a guy myself, I may not be strong, look physically muscular, think gutless or courageous. Or much worst when some older person brags about things they done but you can't do. Basically is just terrible insult in competitive instances and I dislike it. 

You think it's bad when a guy tells another guy to "man up" it's worst when a woman tells a guy to "man up." But to be honest, based on observation is more about what they expect of a guy, or how they see them or want them to be like. Of course that doesn't even compared to when guys talk to women about it. I mean remember how gender divided communities are? Where "This is for men, that is for girls" Man that still a thing today. You would get ridicule if a girl wanted to play video games. This is the real toxic culprit. 

For the record, I prefer a girl who does play games over ones that don't. (Cause least I can have something in common, making it easier to connect with) 

Though it's funny when is use as a joke or some kind for comical function, just look at the ripping friends.


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## jt_1258 (Jan 30, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The greatest misinterpretation to the term "toxic masculinity" is that it applies to masculinity as a whole when that isn't the case.
> Toxic masculinity refers to the cultural idea that being masculine means confirming to one standard of masculinity, which is often a cultural abusive form that suppresses male emotions, gender expression/exploration, sexuality, and basically requires men to fall into the cultural norm or be hated. This is what is referred to as "toxic masculinity" and it a problem with real effects on the mental health of mostly young men.


So less so the actual person being masculine and more so the forcing of a person to fallow said norm. as a tl;dr?
I kinda understand, kinda why I have to hide anything from my own parents that's cute or colerful though then again that could just be them being extraordinarily homophobic and thinking I'm gay if I express any of said intrestes despite there assumption being false. Fun times.


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## Alkéryn (Jan 30, 2019)

The issue isn't "toxic masculinity" but the pseudo masculinity that is in fact a lack of masculinity


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## FAST6191 (Jan 30, 2019)

Sonic Angel Knight said:


> It's toxic when people tell me to "Man up" as a means of insult just cause as a guy myself, I may not be strong, look physically muscular, think gutless or courageous. Or much worst when some older person brags about things they done but you can't do. Basically is just terrible insult in competitive instances and I dislike it.
> 
> You think it's bad when a guy tells another guy to "man up" it's worst when a woman tells a guy to "man up." But to be honest, based on observation is more about what they expect of a guy, or how they see them or want them to be like. Of course that doesn't even compared to when guys talk to women about it. I mean remember how gender divided communities are? Where "This is for men, that is for girls" Man that still a thing today. You would get ridicule if a girl wanted to play video games. This is the real toxic culprit.
> 
> ...



This could take a while to unpack.

First please point to where girls are ridiculed for wanting to play games? It is not a generally accepted thing.

As for "man up" that is an interesting one. I would not have considered it much of anything. Most times I hear it then it is short hand for "are you bleeding, get back on the horse and get it done" or "it can be done, go do it". Generally it is not even on my list of phrases people take exception to.


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## Nerdtendo (Jan 30, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> This could take a while to unpack.
> 
> First please point to where girls are ridiculed for wanting to play games? It is not a generally accepted thing.
> 
> As for "man up" that is an interesting one. I would not have considered it much of anything. Most times I hear it then it is short hand for "are you bleeding, get back on the horse and get it done" or "it can be done, go do it". Generally it is not even on my list of phrases people take exception to.


You're exactly right. Sometimes people need to be told to man up. I constantly tell that to myself. Used correctly, it just means you need to tighten your belt and get something done, or maybe what you're crying over doesn't really deserve tears. I've never heard it used as an insult or degrading statement


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## comput3rus3r (Jan 30, 2019)

jt_1258 said:


> So less so the actual person being masculine and more so the forcing of a person to fallow said norm. as a tl;dr?
> I kinda understand, kinda why I have to hide anything from my own parents that's cute or colerful though then again that could just be them being extraordinarily homophobic and thinking I'm gay if I express any of said intrestes despite there assumption being false. Fun times.


you'll thank them later.


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## The Catboy (Jan 30, 2019)

jt_1258 said:


> So less so the actual person being masculine and more so the forcing of a person to fallow said norm. as a tl;dr?
> I kinda understand, kinda why I have to hide anything from my own parents that's cute or colerful though then again that could just be them being extraordinarily homophobic and thinking I'm gay if I express any of said intrestes despite there assumption being false. Fun times.


That is exactly what toxic masculinity is, a forced social norm of what is expected to be "masculine."
What you just said is a great example of the effects of toxic masculinity. You are afraid of sharing yourself with your parents because you are afraid that they might harm you in some manner for not meeting their expectations of "masculinity." They will most likely think you are homosexual, thus not "masculine," and therefore something to be ashamed of. That right there is a perfect example of both toxic masculinity and the effects of toxic masculinity on an individual.
Side note, I am sorry you live in that kind of situation. I really hope you end up in a safer place where you are free from that kind of negativity and allowed to express yourself.


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## FAST6191 (Jan 30, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That is exactly what toxic masculinity is, a forced social norm of what is expected to be "masculine."
> What you just said is a great example of the effects of toxic masculinity. You are afraid of sharing yourself with your parents because you are afraid that they might harm you in some manner for not meeting their expectations of "masculinity." They will most likely think you are homosexual, thus not "masculine," and therefore something to be ashamed of. That right there is a perfect example of both toxic masculinity and the effects of toxic masculinity on an individual.
> Side note, I am sorry you live in that kind of situation. I really hope you end up in a safer place where you are free from that kind of negativity and allowed to express yourself.



That is more concise than I have heard before, and possibly something I can begin to work with. That said it appears to be a phrase invented to cover different fields with things that already have names, or possibly fall under different things that would want to be treated in a different manner -- I would approach someone that does not care for high impact team sports very differently to someone being subjected to conform away the gay, or indeed any suspicion thereof. I would probably go further and treat it as a different unpleasant scenario, one almost unrelated.


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## gman666 (Jan 30, 2019)

Both masculinity and femininity are so broad that there is no consensus on what they may be/detail. I feel like dealing in generalities can lead to huge disputes where there are outliers. In my opinion, masculinity goes hand in hand with being a gentleman. I can understand why people have been so upset with the recent trend to judge "masculine" behavior, but it just seems like some make the mistake of associating bad behavior with masculinity.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 30, 2019)

It just all stems from a stupid commercial and never should be taken seriously.


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## The Catboy (Jan 30, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> That is more concise than I have heard before, and possibly something I can begin to work with. That said it appears to be a phrase invented to cover different fields with things that already have names, or possibly fall under different things that would want to be treated in a different manner -- I would approach someone that does not care for high impact team sports very differently to someone being subjected to conform away the gay, or indeed any suspicion thereof. I would probably go further and treat it as a different unpleasant scenario, one almost unrelated.


It is a term that is made to cover a wide verity of harmful behavior being masked as "masculinity." Basically ideas like, considering homosexuality to "emasculating," that men who express their openly express their emotions to be less "manly," and harmful teachings of what it should be considered "masculine." So the main issue of toxic masculinity is more so the idea men being forced into a small box of acceptable behaviors and attempting to fit outside of that box is met with social backlash.


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Jan 30, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> First please point to where girls are ridiculed for wanting to play games? It is not a generally accepted thing.


Well first I have to stress enough that this was a earlier time, when I was younger (and people was less open to certain things unlike today) most girls did not play games. I don't know if it cause they didn't see interest in them, but could also speculate that is because maybe they didn't find them intended for them. When games that started features story or relevant characters, they didn't feature female ones, and if they did, they usually was "Damsel in distress" rather than playable protagonist. While today there is plenty of games where they do have female characters depicted in positive influence to the player base regardless of the role in the game's story. 

In the past, if you was a young elementary school student, you liked video games, playing with robot action figures and being dirty if you was a guy. Or style, playing with dolls, and staying clean and smell nice if you was a girl. It was very segregated between the two genders and if one of them showed interest in the things the other was mostly dominating, it made for some awkward times. But my point was the difference between today and the past, not trying to offend anyone here but that's how it was for some people. I personally didn't think much about it cause it seem exaggerated. 



FAST6191 said:


> As for "man up" that is an interesting one. I would not have considered it much of anything. Most times I hear it then it is short hand for "are you bleeding, get back on the horse and get it done" or "it can be done, go do it". Generally it is not even on my list of phrases people take exception to.



Usually if people found a guy being too sensitive to others opinions or having a personality that is not considered strong, courageous, persistent, well 
"man up" is a common thing to say kinda like how people who managed to do something in a video game you haven't yet. Most likely cause you lack the skill or ability to do it, they push the fact that they managed to do it in your face and tell you to "get good" which I figure it's possible to use "man up" in the same context. I just think people say it to mean behave something more like how a woman who likes guys expects them to be. But that is just me, perhaps a misunderstanding.


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## The Catboy (Jan 30, 2019)

comput3rus3r said:


> you'll thank them later.


This right here is another example of toxic masculinity, encouraging abusive behavior. Instead of encouraging someone to be open and express themselves, you decided to reward their parent's abusive actions that had made that individual feel so repressed that they don't feel safe enough to express themselves around their own parents. This also comes with the expectations that the same person will end up being as repressive of others their parents were.


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## kuwanger (Jan 30, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> First please point to where girls are ridiculed for wanting to play games? It is not a generally accepted thing.



Like most things, it's changed over times.  So, "play games" is okay so long as they're "girl games".  If they're competitive games, gory games, etc then the girl is treated as a "tomboy"; if they play enough of those games will likely receive comments of "never getting a guy".  Of course, the last comment will possibly occur if a guy plays enough games to "never getting a girl", but the threshold is lower for girls receiving the comment in my experience.



FAST6191 said:


> As for "man up" that is an interesting one. I would not have considered it much of anything. Most times I hear it then it is short hand for "are you bleeding, get back on the horse and get it done" or "it can be done, go do it". Generally it is not even on my list of phrases people take exception to.



Do you hear "woman up"?  Is "man up" said to women?  I think when people start blatantly referencing gender or age, one has to consider if they're implying something about that gender/age.  With boys, it's mostly about age not gender.  I'd consider homophobia somewhat disconnected from toxic masculinity (as there's toxic femininity with the same mindset), but I imagine that depends a lot on your local culture.  I definitely agree it's hard to narrow down what's the source/direction of toxicity, as it's not limited to gender roles, race roles, etc, but it definitely is a thing and it often is more cultural norms masquerading as gender norms.  That's a major reason why it's so hard to define concretely because cultural norms aren't agreed upon and are fluid.


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## jt_1258 (Jan 30, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> This right here is another example of toxic masculinity, encouraging abusive behavior. Instead of encouraging someone to be open and express themselves, you decided to reward their parent's abusive actions that had made that individual feel so repressed that they don't feel safe enough to express themselves around their own parents. This also comes with the expectations that the same person will end up being as repressive of others their parents were.


Nah, I'm much more open around my friends. Not to often that I get to see them but it is a breath of fresh air.


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## Nerdtendo (Jan 30, 2019)

kuwanger said:


> Like most things, it's changed over times.  So, "play games" is okay so long as they're "girl games".  If they're competitive games, gory games, etc then the girl is treated as a "tomboy"; if they play enough of those games will likely receive comments of "never getting a guy".  Of course, the last comment will possibly occur if a guy plays enough games to "never getting a girl", but the threshold is lower for girls receiving the comment in my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you hear "woman up"?  Is "man up" said to women?  I think when people start blatantly referencing gender or age, one has to consider if they're implying something about that gender/age.  With boys, it's mostly about age not gender.  I'd consider homophobia somewhat disconnected from toxic masculinity (as there's toxic femininity with the same mindset), but I imagine that depends a lot on your local culture.  I definitely agree it's hard to narrow down what's the source/direction of toxicity, as it's not limited to gender roles, race roles, etc, but it definitely is a thing and it often is more cultural norms masquerading as gender norms.  That's a major reason why it's so hard to define concretely because cultural norms aren't agreed upon and are fluid.


You don't hear "woman up" because women aren't expected to be tough. The men of this generation need to stand up and be tough so they can provide for those weaker than them. Masculinity is a responsibility


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## comput3rus3r (Jan 30, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> This right here is another example of toxic masculinity, encouraging abusive behavior. Instead of encouraging someone to be open and express themselves, you decided to reward their parent's abusive actions that had made that individual feel so repressed that they don't feel safe enough to express themselves around their own parents. This also comes with the expectations that the same person will end up being as repressive of others their parents were.


I can relate to his remark about his parents as I felt the same when I was young and 20 years later I'm glad my parent's didn't let me become a soyboy.
Also you're the example of toxic femininity as you can't stand the idea of men being men. You'd rather have all males be emasculated. 
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=#thebestwomencanbe


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## Arecaidian Fox (Jan 30, 2019)

kuwanger said:


> Masculinity is not toxic, but there is toxic masculinity.  Femininity is not toxic, but there is toxic femininity.  The end.


This is pretty much the cut and dry. Dunno what else can be said in three short sentences that would be more constructive.

I'll just leave this here, too...


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## FAST6191 (Jan 30, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> It is a term that is made to cover a wide verity of harmful behavior being masked as "masculinity." Basically ideas like, considering homosexuality to "emasculating," that men who express their openly express their emotions to be less "manly," and harmful teachings of what it should be considered "masculine." So the main issue of toxic masculinity is more so the idea men being forced into a small box of acceptable behaviors and attempting to fit outside of that box is met with social backlash.


So it is an intentionally fairly broad ranging concept that covers things others would take on a more case by case basis, and as such less useful than specifics or even really as a narrowing pathway in diagnostics. Worse is it seems to have a wide variety of definitions or interpretations out there in the world, several of which I find quite suspect. Oh well.



Sonic Angel Knight said:


> Well first I have to stress enough that this was a earlier time, when I was younger (and people was less open to certain things unlike today) most girls did not play games. I don't know if it cause they didn't see interest in them, but could also speculate that is because maybe they didn't find them intended for them. When games that started features story or relevant characters, they didn't feature female ones, and if they did, they usually was "Damsel in distress" rather than playable protagonist. While today there is plenty of games where they do have female characters depicted in positive influence to the player base regardless of the role in the game's story.
> 
> In the past, if you was a young elementary school student, you liked video games, playing with robot action figures and being dirty if you was a guy. Or style, playing with dolls, and staying clean and smell nice if you was a girl. It was very segregated between the two genders and if one of them showed interest in the things the other was mostly dominating, it made for some awkward times. But my point was the difference between today and the past, not trying to offend anyone here but that's how it was for some people. I personally didn't think much about it cause it seem exaggerated.



If memory serves you are still rather younger than I and have been doing this gaming lark since I too was a small lad. Still not remembering a time when women were unwelcome or uninvited as a general concept. I don't doubt demographics as a whole have shifted somewhat but I care less about that than people being made unwelcome.

Is "Damsel in distress" not a positive character role?



kuwanger said:


> Like most things, it's changed over times.  So, "play games" is okay so long as they're "girl games".  If they're competitive games, gory games, etc then the girl is treated as a "tomboy"; if they play enough of those games will likely receive comments of "never getting a guy".  Of course, the last comment will possibly occur if a guy plays enough games to "never getting a girl", but the threshold is lower for girls receiving the comment in my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you hear "woman up"?  Is "man up" said to women?  I think when people start blatantly referencing gender or age, one has to consider if they're implying something about that gender/age.  With boys, it's mostly about age not gender.  I'd consider homophobia somewhat disconnected from toxic masculinity (as there's toxic femininity with the same mindset), but I imagine that depends a lot on your local culture.  I definitely agree it's hard to narrow down what's the source/direction of toxicity, as it's not limited to gender roles, race roles, etc, but it definitely is a thing and it often is more cultural norms masquerading as gender norms.  That's a major reason why it's so hard to define concretely because cultural norms aren't agreed upon and are fluid.



Yes, both as a "logical" counterpoint I have seen women told to lean into the femininity as it were, and as an amusing twist type thing to ultimately mean the same thing as man up (for want of a more precise phrase as a kind of gender neutral version of man up).
Yes I have heard it as a general phrase when women are engaged in a task and need some encouragement to get it done.
I don't know that age is the basis for such a thing, other than puberty tending to be associated with things.
For the most part I go with the classic harms done thing as far as how you approach the world, and will tie it in with "you do you" here*. However most times I hear the phrases it is people with an agenda and outlook on the world I find less than agreeable.

*it gets a bit more fun when it comes to parents doing things, and it gets tricky with the gay thing mentioned before. For instance I would have no problem with someone teaching their kid, gay and inclined to be a softly spoken mincer, to do all the "manly" stuff like hunting, martial arts, hard graft labour... not to stop them being gay but as a general thing they want them to know (and replace as necessary for the other gender options as it were), and compelling them strongly do such a thing. Many that would be inclined to throw around the phrases in question seem to fail to see that, never mind all the fun and games associated by many of said same with roughhousing.



the_randomizer said:


> It just all stems from a stupid commercial and never should be taken seriously.


Assuming you mean that Gillette business then it massively predates that -- here is a 2012 article from a fairly major publication covering things https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/11/the-end-of-violent-simplistic-macho-masculinity/ , 2013 in wired https://www.wired.com/2013/10/breaking-bad-toxic-masculinity/ and you can find examples from the years before and after readily enough. While I have massive misgivings with the term/its definitions/it proponents/its usages in wild it is far from a term that lept out of some dusty textbook or was concocted in recent times.


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## The Catboy (Jan 31, 2019)

jt_1258 said:


> Nah, I'm much more open around my friends. Not to often that I get to see them but it is a breath of fresh air.


I am glad to hear that, but I am more referring to the reaction of saying that what they are doing is something that is ok. I'm sorry your post ended up being a good example. 


FAST6191 said:


> So it is an intentionally fairly broad ranging concept that covers things others would take on a more case by case basis, and as such less useful than specifics or even really as a narrowing pathway in diagnostics. Worse is it seems to have a wide variety of definitions or interpretations out there in the world, several of which I find quite suspect. Oh well.


It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/boys-cry-male-suicide-dean-windass
This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."


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## jt_1258 (Jan 31, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am glad to hear that, but I am more referring to the reaction of saying that what they are doing is something that is ok. I'm sorry your post ended up being a good example.
> 
> It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/boys-cry-male-suicide-dean-windass
> This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."


Naa, it's not an issue being an example in this. I could just unwatch the thread snd forget about it and not worry about the replys that fallow it.


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## The Catboy (Jan 31, 2019)

comput3rus3r said:


> I can relate to his remark about his parents as I felt the same when I was young and 20 years later I'm glad my parent's didn't let me become a soyboy.
> Also you're the example of toxic femininity as you can't stand the idea of men being men. You'd rather have all males be emasculated.
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=#thebestwomencanbe


So what you are saying is, your parents didn't allow you to express yourself and somehow you believe that's a healthy means of treating another person.
Can you provide an example of me saying men can't be men?


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## Deleted-379826 (Jan 31, 2019)

Nerdtendo said:


> I actually wanted to make the same post but didn't.
> 
> No, masculinity is a good thing. Men and women are not equal. They ecxel and stumble at different things. Men are great at dirty work and providing for others. They also, for better and worse, are quicker decision makers. They fail at things involving humanity.  For example, sensitivity, planning ahead, considering everyone in a certain situation, etc. Women on the other hand, are great at those things. Compassion, prioritizing, seeing all opinions and understanding everyone etc. However they're not built for grunt work or making decisions where not everyone wins.
> 
> ...


That just sounds like a bunch of gender stereotyping to me. A man can be great at showing compassion, prioritizing, seeing all opinions and understanding everyone the same way a woman can do dirty work, provide for others and be quick decision maker.


Nerdtendo said:


> You don't hear "woman up" because women aren't expected to be tough. The men of this generation need to stand up and be tough so they can provide for those weaker than them. Masculinity is a responsibility


How is masculinity a responsibility? Is femininity a responsibility as well? Is it an obligation for you to comply with certain gender roles based on the gender you would be?


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Jan 31, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides


Okay I know about this as fact, cause that definitely was a big deal in the past.

But this? 



Lilith Valentine said:


> This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."


I don't even think about suicide. That's a bit extreme. Scary and crazy. But oh gosh no. I mean I suppose that could be possible. But I wouldn't dare think about people doing that. 

I figured there would be more depressing matters that would cause suicide like "live going down hill, nothing work their way, unable to support themself" But I suppose feelings and emotions are more scarier than I thought.


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## The Catboy (Jan 31, 2019)

Sonic Angel Knight said:


> Okay I know about this as fact, cause that definitely was a big deal in the past.
> 
> But this?
> 
> ...


Not everyone deals with things the same way, but it is a possible link that may link to more possible issues. Men not being allowed to express their emotions may link to unhealthy coping mechanisms, such as substance abuse, anger issues, or other unhealthy behavior. Emotion suppression is just one piece of that puzzle.


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## jt_1258 (Jan 31, 2019)

Sonic Angel Knight said:


> Okay I know about this as fact, cause that definitely was a big deal in the past.
> 
> But this?
> 
> ...


Yikes, yaa, suicide definitely isn't a great option. No matter bad life feals it could always be worse. Death is something you can never go back on and there is always the chance that things could get better. Live with hope, not pessimism.


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## Fugelmir (Jan 31, 2019)




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## dAVID_ (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm waiting for somebody to mention the buzzword *RAPE CULTURE.*


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## Nerdtendo (Jan 31, 2019)

TheVinAnator said:


> That just sounds like a bunch of gender stereotyping to me. A man can be great at showing compassion, prioritizing, seeing all opinions and understanding everyone the same way a woman can do dirty work, provide for others and be quick decision maker.
> 
> How is masculinity a responsibility? Is femininity a responsibility as well? Is it an obligation for you to comply with certain gender roles based on the gender you would be?


Natural endowment my dude. Not saying you can't learn skills but genders naturally excel at certain things. Masculinity is the responsibility of providing for others and serving them greater than yourself. Being a not woman, I can't tell you the responsibility of femininity but I'm sure there is one.


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## kuwanger (Jan 31, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Men not being allowed to express their emotions may link to unhealthy coping mechanisms, such as substance abuse, anger issues, or other unhealthy behavior.



It's incredibly obvious too if you look at TV and movies.  Men "coping" by drinking is made out to be a joke.  By the same token, if you want to dispel any feelings of self-induced homophobia because of an awkward situation, you start talking about sports.  Funny thing that I neither drink nor have an interest in sports.



Nerdtendo said:


> Natural endowment my dude. Not saying you can't learn skills but genders naturally excel at certain things.



It's funny because the argument about transgenderism often degenerates in whether a person has a penis or a vagina.  Yet, I can really figure out how having either one makes one "excel" in any of those things called masculinity or femininity unless one is suggesting one actually uses a penis or vagina to carry out those tasks.  If anything, the notion of "natural endowment(s)" suggests that people being male or female is separate to said penis/vagina and further because said "natural endowment(s)" vary that there's a spectrum of gender between male and female.

Personally, though, I don't even know what it means to "feel" male or female.  So, I'm probably not the best person to try to make that sort of distinction.



Nerdtendo said:


> Masculinity is the responsibility of providing for others and serving them greater than yourself.



Funny as one could argue that it is the duty of all people to provide/serve other people as part of the great plan for humanity.  Or at least, that's what I tended to understand the Christian message to be.  Nothing about what Jesus said was really gender specific*, and most of history is full of males and females alike doing what you suggest.  It's odd for a male to claim this to be a property of masculinity as if to own it, both its accolades and its supposed duty.

* Paul said a lot of things as did the Old Testament.  I'm not a Biblical scholar, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt.


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## Minox (Jan 31, 2019)

No. End of topic.


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## Deleted-379826 (Jan 31, 2019)

Nerdtendo said:


> Natural endowment my dude. Not saying you can't learn skills but genders naturally excel at certain things. Masculinity is the responsibility of providing for others and serving them greater than yourself. Being a not woman, I can't tell you the responsibility of femininity but I'm sure there is one.


Being a male, I can totally tell you that I am not sensing these masculine exclusive skills that should have been bestowed upon me from conception.


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## VinsCool (Jan 31, 2019)

In my opinion it's only toxic when a set of stereotypical skill/behaviour is expected from a man and forced upon them otherwise they are seen as "effeminate" or "gay"
You don't have to be a mass of muscles with no emotion to be a man.


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## The Catboy (Jan 31, 2019)

kuwanger said:


> It's incredibly obvious too if you look at TV and movies.  Men "coping" by drinking is made out to be a joke.


I just want to focus on this because it's important, it's made out to be a joke. Alcoholism as a means of coping is always shown as the butt of a joke and treated as if it's not something to be taken seriously and that does reflect back into the real world. It's often seen as a form of weakness trying to get help with alcoholism and often people don't address their drinking problems because they are afraid it won't be taken seriously and afraid of losing the escape that drinking gives them. This is a problem that goes along with those who have issues like depression that they aren't treating because doing so is often considered another sign of weakness. This is all part of the bigger problem that is often referred to as "toxic masculinity." By making some like alcoholism or drinking to cope a joke, treating depression as a weakness, and avoiding the problems by making them a joke.


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## Nerdtendo (Jan 31, 2019)

kuwanger said:


> It's incredibly obvious too if you look at TV and movies.  Men "coping" by drinking is made out to be a joke.  By the same token, if you want to dispel any feelings of self-induced homophobia because of an awkward situation, you start talking about sports.  Funny thing that I neither drink nor have an interest in sports.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is where personal beliefs and yes *gasps* religion come into play. I won't try to force this stuff because that's counter intuitive but I'll say this,
A) yes, being a man or woman has more to do with having a penis or vagina. It has to do with how your soul is hardwired from creation
B) yes, all people should look out for the little guy. The greatest commandment is love the neighbor as thyself, however. In a family setting, the man has been placed in a position to provide. Ex. Adam, Abraham, Noah, Israel

Like I said. I can't prove these things because it's strictly spiritual but I'll believe it to my grave.

*Footnote from someone who is a bit of Bible scholar. Jesus' teachings weren't generally gender specific (though there were some. Off the top of my head I can think of some from the sermon on the mount). However, according to the Christian faith, since the whole Bible is "God breathed", it's all true, Even the things written by Paul or Moses, because God divinely inspired it.  This doesn't really add to the conversation but thought it was interesting enough to note


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## kuwanger (Jan 31, 2019)

Nerdtendo said:


> And this is where personal beliefs and yes *gasps* religion come into play. I won't try to force this stuff because that's counter intuitive but I'll say this,



I would agree it's due to religion, but here's the crux of the problem with all religion:  you're taught what to believe by those before you who were taught by those before them.  Just as our words have change and whole languages have evolved in the time span of the birth of Christ, it's hard to believe that the dogmatic beliefs have stayed the same.  In fact, there's been multiple Councils created to resolve evolving religious disputes.  It's a major part of where Protestantism came from.

So, personal beliefs seem to be a major consideration, and that always leaves me skeptical when large groups of people seem to be possibly harming others because of said personal beliefs.



Nerdtendo said:


> The greatest commandment is love the neighbor as thyself, however. In a family setting, the man has been placed in a position to provide. Ex. Adam, Abraham, Noah, Israel



Of note, all Old Testament figures.  It's one of the more curious aspects of what Christ said:  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."  It's hard to understand how that doesn't inherently lead to contradictions when "love thy neighbor as thyself" is very much not an Old Testament commandment.



Nerdtendo said:


> Even the things written by Paul or Moses, because God divinely inspired it. This doesn't really add to the conversation but thought it was interesting enough to note



But why do we include the writings of Paul and not Thomas?  Why do we not have Book Q?  You see, as I started out, we're trusting that the right collections of books were gathered to make the Bible.  Even optimally, that leaves a lot of room for abuse or for personal belief to color the history of Christianity.  Having said that, it's definitely off-topic and I don't personally think Christianity is redeemable precisely because it's rooted in the Old Testament.

You're of course welcome to your own beliefs.  It's very unclear, however, how you can actually fit the agricultural at home work of the Bible that could involve the whole family into the 40 hours/week away from home work schedule that supposedly should be reduced to one man per household.  Of course, in many households in the US it's actually multiple members precisely because one man frequently cannot earn enough to support a household.  That is not a failing but an economic reality which paradoxically matches the past much better than a short period where one person could make enough for many.


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## fixingmytoys (Jan 31, 2019)

And in the end women sorry I should say the angry women were angry because they were born woman due to nature which at this stage we don’t have full control over  because it was not like us men went in the worm oh we make a conscious decision to become male  so therefore that’s what we will do,  no it’s what you came out it is what you are you’re not at the stage maybe Asia China where we can decide on what sex the baby shopping but at this stage of the game ,  now back to what I was saying it’s the woman the angry woman( not all woman) who aren’t happy or have not found themselves in their place in this world now that place in this world anyone’s place in this world is determined by how the world is it that particular time .  Your place in this world is not the same is if you are born 100 years ago the worlds different technology people interacted culturally exposure to different cultures and lifestyles in 100 years time it will be different again so the your place in the world today won’t be the same as your place in the word  in a 100 years.  Times change views change cultures change people change but we have to be careful that we don’t go down the mob mentality which unfortunately is what’s happening now.  Parts of the  society are upset about how they been treated granted not always been good but to change everything in your favour just makes you as bad as what was before ,  this whole #metoo movement is getting out of Control yes the old sexist arsehole  brigade has  to go but at the same time male and female are different just like water is wet on the ground is dry what day is clear and night is dark it’s different there a difference for a reason you cannot make it today mono cannot take away something that is in nature you’ll get to a stage  we all men will be belittled changed by law pressure controlled behaviour from a young age are you teaching in schools basically brainwashing and then one day they will turn around and go what can’t you be a man be a real man  you can’t have it both ways this whole let’s change every single movie TV show or IP property into having females as the main characters i.e. Doctor Who Marvel characters  now I think they’re doing it with terminator one thing people don’t like having an existing story changed and  shoved  down the throat a agenda  create new properties new stories new movies characters TV shows don’t take something that is being set in concrete and remould it just does not work  look at the new Ghostbusters the female version it made no money so now they’re going back to  doing a sequel of the original not the reboot  and low in behold one of the female Ghostbusters has come out and say that sexist they should be doing  A sequel of the new female movie how can this help anyone’s calls blah blah blah blah well thing is reality kicked in  and in reality we make money .they make movies to make money so if A particular Idear doesn’t work they change back to what does work and unfortunately that’s happening with all the shows and movies that are we casting existing characters as females to appease some invisible PC group that everyone is so scared off.  If you attracted to females you’re attracted to females if you are attracted to  guys you are attracted guys you can’t change that so getting upset when a guy is attracted to a girl is just stupid that’s nature,changing everything and saying these toxicity and  implying that it’s male toxicity because in this world this PC #MeToo World Female Toxicity  does not exist  because only males are the baddies .
 Everyone is born into a world has to find a place in the world that is a very predefined and a set of rules that were made created Evolved before we popped out of our mothers worms  yes nothing wrong with changing rules  evolving rules you cannot it never works change societies rules at a flick of a switch it has to involve yes there does come a breaking point just have to be careful how you  proceed onthat breaking point. #MeToo  is that breaking point but unfortunately I can see it turning bad and actually really fast and really been   detrimental to humans yes somethings were wrong from today’s point of view. should be noted that today point of views Has changed just like the way people are treated in the mediaeval dark Ages  at that time that point if you was fine which was contained by today’s biggest church the Catholic Church  which was the controlling factor of society back in those times , where correct but today it is not. it changes so it’s really difficult and dangerous to To judge and condemn a past days point of view on today’s evolving point of you you have to tread carefully and this is what is not happening and that is with a danger lies


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## IncredulousP (Jan 31, 2019)

I just wanna be able to cross my legs sitting down without being judged.


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## mikefor20 (Jan 31, 2019)

All you whining ladies who think you have a right to fit in and be accepted are lucky you have people with true grit to protect you. Why do you think you have to fight for all these gripe of the minute bullshit causes? You are not making the world a better place by turning everyone in to you.  I don't think most of you crying whiney babies deserve to fit in. Why do you think you have authority? You shouldn't be so quick to decide you are better. When the shit hits the fan you cower and run. SJWs are the worst. Think you are so tough and righteous but when it comes down to it you are all just hiding in your Hello Kitty clad room waiting for your mommy to call you for dinner.  Making a ruckus online and pretending to be a real person but all you are Its a bunch of whiney thumb sucking babies.  Don't cry if someone is manly.  Go back to your gaming rigs and feel secure that someone out there has the balls to build a house for you to live in, farm food to make your asses fat, be a cop to get your lunch money back and be a soldier to protect your punk ass country that's full of arrogant baby ladyboy jack asses that have nerve to complain that a man or woman had the balls to make a difference and build a safe world for all you brony furry trans children.  You should thank god someone is out there. Hard as nails. So you don't have to. Thank god for real men and all you who complain should be ashamed that you can't even admit you owe everything you have to someone with bigger balls than you.  I hope the next generation realizes how lame everything is becoming and goes back to being real people instead of cowards that complain that the world isn't padded enough for their candy asses
Man up. Grow a pair and shut up


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## VinsCool (Jan 31, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> All you whining ladies who think you have a right to fit in and be accepted are lucky you have people with true grit to protect you. Why do you think you have to fight for all these gripe of the minute bullshit causes? You are not making the world a better place by turning everyone in to you.  I don't think most of you crying whiney babies deserve to fit in. Why do you think you have authority? You shouldn't be so quick to decide you are better. When the shit hits the fan you cower and run. SJWs are the worst. Think you are so tough and righteous but when it comes down to it you are all just hiding in your Hello Kitty clad room waiting for your mommy to call you for dinner.  Making a ruckus online and pretending to be a real person but all you are Its a bunch of whiney thumb sucking babies.  Don't cry if someone is manly.  Go back to your gaming rigs and feel secure that someone out there has the balls to build a house for you to live in, farm food to make your asses fat, be a cop to get your lunch money back and be a soldier to protect your punk ass country that's full of arrogant baby ladyboy jack asses that have nerve to complain that a man or woman had the balls to make a difference and build a safe world for all you brony furry trans children.  You should thank god someone is out there. Hard as nails. So you don't have to. Thank god for real men and all you who complain should be ashamed that you can't even admit you owe everything you have to someone with bigger balls than you.  I hope the next generation realizes how lame everything is becoming and goes back to being real people instead of cowards that complain that the world isn't padded enough for their candy asses
> Man up. Grow a pair and shut up


Nice bait right there buddy.
For someone supposedly 40 this is honestly sad to read.


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## mikefor20 (Jan 31, 2019)

It is sad. Being strong and direct and not playing games considered being toxic. Being a big baby and crying about what everybody else does is in Vogue. Very sad.


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## VinsCool (Jan 31, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> Being a big baby and crying about what everybody else does is in Vogue. Very sad.


The irony in this reply though.


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## duwen (Jan 31, 2019)

To paraphrase how I heard someone else explain this "all burgers are burgers, not all burgers are cheese burgers".


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## IncredulousP (Jan 31, 2019)

Just gonna take a moment to say regardless of your gender and whatever expectations there are of you, you matter . And that goes to all of you.


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## Taleweaver (Jan 31, 2019)

Interesting topic. I'm currently reading "men on strike" from Helen Smith. It's not the first book about the topic, but thus far one of the best. I was considering writing a blog on it, but seeing this topic makes that abundant. More so: I'm glad that the general trend is positive to say the least. 



the_randomizer said:


> It just all stems from a stupid commercial and never should be taken seriously.


No. Sorry. This unfortunately is not an option. Let's say that the roles were reversed and all those commercials warned about "toxic femininity" where treats that are considered womanly (e.g. putting on make-up) are pictured as being dangerous and degrading. You can bet that this would NOT just be brushed aside under the "should never be taken seriously" flag.

Likewise: just because you don't believe it exists doesn't mean it others won't believe it. As we speak, an entire generation of men is taught to be ashamed to act on their natural behavior is bad while an entire generation of women can get away with far reaching consequences in areas like family life and parenthood.



Lilith Valentine said:


> The greatest misinterpretation to the term "toxic masculinity" is that it applies to masculinity as a whole when that isn't the case.
> Toxic masculinity refers to the cultural idea that being masculine means confirming to one standard of masculinity, which is often a cultural abusive form that suppresses male emotions, gender expression/exploration, sexuality, and basically requires men to fall into the cultural norm or be hated. This is what is referred to as "toxic masculinity" and it a problem with real effects on the mental health of mostly young men.


Hmm...please don't take it personally, but I have to disagree with you on a few important details. Let's start with a quickly googled definition that I attest to more:

_Toxic masculinity refers to harmful behaviour and attitudes commonly associated with some men, such as the need to repress emotions during stressful situations, and to act in an aggressively dominant way._

Now...you say that the toxicity in masculinity is in one male trying to enforce one form of "manliness" over someone else. This definition boldly states that repressing your emotions during stressful situations is in itself toxic (me telling someone else to "man up" would no doubt also be seen as toxic*, but it's but a small part of what the definition entails). I hope this difference is clear, because if toxic masculinity would be how you'd define it, I'd mostly agree (there'd be a few details I could throw up as counterexamples, but rather minor ones). The problem I have with the term is twofold:

1) what is described basically comes down to coping mechanisms. This really isn't a bad thing. Countless feminists hammer on "the need to express your emotions", but really: when in stressful situations that require clear thought and strong decision making, emotions can form a cloud that prevents the best course of action. Labeling that as "toxic" isn't just stupid: it is potentially damaging. There was a time when stoicism was a virtue, but to some, that does no longer ring true. Wait...it's worse than that. But that's point 2:

2) the definition of both of these are subjective. When I'm having an argument with my girlfriend, she often raises her voice. Not even conscious: it's just something she does. She says things like "you're not listening" or interrupts me all the time. When she does it, it would be called "arguing passionately". But the moment I raise my voice even a little in response (I don't like being interrupted in the middle of saying something important...especially when I can already predict that if I let her, she'd later blame me for not having said it  ) she goes all "whoa! you shouldn't be MAD about it!".
Now...the reason this never escalates is because we love and respect each other very dearly (okay, and we both have this "going silent" as coping mechanisms, which allows us both to oversee the situation and think on the other's perspective). But against people you don't know, this is a verbal tool women often use to get their way.


*and in many situations: rightfully so

EDIT:


Lilith Valentine said:


> It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/boys-cry-male-suicide-dean-windass
> This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."


I've just read the article. It's a good example of the intoxination of masculinity. It's not the same as the stoicism I was talking about earlier, but it's not that easy to distinguish the two. Let's see if I can clarify:

I stated before that men are more competition-minded. We don't like to lose. Or perhaps more specific: we go at greater lengths to 'win'. The crying in frustration for a failure obviously feels terrible, but the act of emotion should neither be a good nor a bad thing (I'll get to my earlier example in a minute). The article is about linking "states of emotion" to "failure"...THAT is the bad thing. I don't recognize those traits from my own youth (thank God!), but then again: I never played sports at that age either. Perhaps I'm an outsider in that I never competed to be the strongest, toughest...whatever kid there was, but it's my parents who taught me that crying was okay as long as it didn't tore me down.

I still act by that. I ran 20 km last weekend. that's well above my average (10-15 is what I "can do"), and there were certainly times that I nearly broke down. That would've been okay. Heck...even quitting would've been okay, provided the effort was a good one. A man who was taught very hard that crying was bad might not have attempted to push his boundaries at all for fear of failure.

What I don't like about the article is that it somewhat attempts to link the high suicide rates in our group almost purely on that "we do not show emotions" part. I can name (and argue) quite a few reasons why that is the case, but misplaced masculinity isn't among them. I would go with the following list...


Spoiler



Small warning: this list is pretty hefty and controversial. I will not further discuss it, apart from by PM.


Spoiler



* men have little to no say in getting or raising children, apart from what their partner agrees to
* male role models are very much in decline (heck...can you even NAME a popular character men aspire to be like nowadays?)
* males work longer and often in more hazardous situations as well, yet aren't respected for it anymore
* men's chances of winning an argument against a woman are slim to none.
* men's sexuality is constantly mocked, ridiculed and made fun of. Women are encouraged to talk openly about whatever encounter they want, whereas men are deemed as creeps or perverts
* shopping malls almost exclusively cater to women (how's that for the glass ceiling? Plenty of economic studies reveal that the glass ceiling doesn't exist, but the fact that women do around 80% of the spending is hardly ever investigated)
* married men are no longer envied but pitied

...I could probably go on. The idea is that men are finding themselves more and more useless in today's society.


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## Deleted User (Jan 31, 2019)

Yesterday I withheld my opinion to avoid influencing the comments.
The thread title was originally "Is masculinity toxic?" and a staff member changed it to "Is all masculinity toxic?"

Onto my point of view. Masculinity can take many different forms. Some good and some bad. Logan Paul is the perfect example of a fucking asshole spreading his toxic masculinity wherever he goes. Other men approach sainthood. Most of us are somewhere in between.


Lilith Valentine said:


> Toxic masculinity refers to the cultural idea that being masculine means confirming to one standard of masculinity, which is often a cultural abusive form that suppresses male emotions, gender expression/exploration, sexuality, and basically requires men to fall into the cultural norm or be hated. This is what is referred to as "toxic masculinity" and it a problem with real effects on the mental health of mostly young men.


Regarding men showing their emotions, I think it's something to be done with close friends or family. TheJWittz mentions at 11:36 that he opens up with his friends and family and his wife especially. He goes too far talking about his mental health issues publicly but it does give me a good example here. When displaying emotions publicly it should be short and sweet. Gordan Ramsay nails it in the first few seconds of this video and again at 11:17. What exactly do you mean by "gender expression"?


the_randomizer said:


> It just all stems from a stupid commercial and never should be taken seriously.


I wasn't going to mention the Gillette ad because it's bullshit but now that it's been brought up... The ad portrays men as wolves needing to be tamed and women as sheep needing to be protected, all for the purpose of convincing you to buy some shitty shaving products. The video briefly mentions that there are some more refined gentlemen in this world but implies they are the exception rather than the norm. It completely fails to mention that there are also some women out there who are cunning bitches. Men and women can both be toxic.


dAVID_ said:


> I'm waiting for somebody to mention the buzzword *RAPE CULTURE.*


Advances in forensic science have reduced rape cases by putting rapists in jail. It still does happen and still does need to be taken seriously, but it shouldn't be exaggerated either. Countries which punish rape victims for having sex before marriage have a real rape culture.


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## notimp (Jan 31, 2019)

And I'm still offended by people using the word toxic as a descriptor for anything at all - that isn't in fact 'toxic' (in the clinical sense).

All it does, and I insist on this being the case - is to flat out ruin descussions at the very start.

Toxic, for most people throwing that word around - has no other meaning than "something we dont like as a group". Its insanely stupid.

Its "aggitation" in a "box".

Its 'some people have a native language mastery of about 500 words' and toxic has become one of them.

Its the "whats best" of holding discussions that never can go anywhere - because it has 'who is with me' baked into the question, faking a veil of neutrality in asking if your point is actually correct. But what do you think? You already used the word toxic, and disqualified, even alienated all other positions or nuances.

You even did it with the only word - thats stupid enough, that you didn't have to think how to best offend all other positions out there - you used the word that offends all of them.

So how did you think the discussion would go?

You couldnt think of a word that actually described what you were looking for in a concise manner - so you asked if something was toxic again, then you got the "im with you" responses, then you got the "I'm against it" responses - then everyone shouted - then everyone went their separate ways.

Using the word toxic in the coloquial sense - is stupid as heck.

Loaded with a hell lot of emotion, and doesnt mean anything other than "who's with me against something". It doesnt descibe anything other than contempt.

Its interaction bait, with a baked in outcome.

Thank you to the few people who tried to steer the conversation in a different direction.


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## mattytrog (Jan 31, 2019)

Toxic = the latest lefty buzzword. Everything is "toxic" nowadays.

Now, masculinity...

You are who you are. You should be proud of who you are...

Now, those people who use their lack of masculinity for gain (ie I`m offended as I`m "metrosexual", "non-binary", "gender-fluid") are just selfish and should be beaten up in the playground.

Same goes for the masculine "tough-guys" here... It`s ok being able to lift 200kg with dumbels... But dumbels don`t hit you back, Rocky. No matter how macho you are.

If you are effeminite, so what? Who gives a flying fuck? Yes. You might get the piss taken out of you a bit. But deal with it. And give it back. Man the fuck up.

If you are "macho", you aren`t as hard as you think you are...

But each to their own.

Macho masculine man who go round parading their six-pack like a pigeon-chested little tosser. (You know the types... Have to SAY they are a "muscleman". Probably have a beard) will fall down sooner or later. Its the quiet ones you need to watch.

Same thing goes for the overtly effeminate ones... If you go round prancing around like a fairy, don`t be surprised when someone takes the piss out of you.

It is only "toxic" if you prefer it to be so. Normal people would just say "get fucked" and carry on with their day.

It all boils down to people being happy with the skin they are in. They only have themselves to please.


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## kumikochan (Jan 31, 2019)

I really don't get why people want to deny biology and what chemicals do in the brain. Testeron and so forth is a stronger hormone. Denying human biology doesn't make you a better person or a better human, it makes you ignorant. Not talking about transgenders or anything since they do take dht and testeron blockers and increase their female hormones wich causes the brain to react differently to situations and so forth but i mean that a lpt of people do deny what male hormones do and how it does make you act


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## Nova6677 (Feb 8, 2019)

There's sort of a problem where people confuse being the "Alpha Male" with being properly masculine, which is what leads to toxic masculinity in my opinion.


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## fixingmytoys (Feb 8, 2019)

if people can be who they are or who they think they are , why in this so called new world why can't  males just can't be males why is that male masculinity toxic all of a sudden? what because one half dose not like the cards they got when they came into this world, not like we could pick, it is what is.
masculinity dose not have a on off button , sorry new order pc people no switch , you do realizes or do you choose to not that masculinity comes at different leaves, all males don't have the same amount. you cant change who you are or make laws to change some one, all that will happen is a new group of people will go into hiding , and for you people that were hiding who you are and what you. need i say more


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## bitjacker (Feb 8, 2019)

Political correctness is the problem in a lot of areas right now.  why cant feminism be called toxic for imposing a penalty on anyone with a trace amount of testosterone? Its the male gender's fault for letting outrage culture ruin everyone's lives. Alot of people need to just get punched in the face. Wait, was that toxic?


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## Xzi (Feb 8, 2019)

Do people really not know what toxic masculinity is?  In simple terms it's a nicer way of calling someone a douchebag or a jackass.  From the replies it seems like most people here would rather be called those names, though.  "Toxic masculinity" seems to be too triggering.

And lol at the argument "you are who you are."  Well...yeah, but you could use that shallow thought to excuse away literally anything.  Pedophilia, rape, murder, anything.


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## fiis (Feb 8, 2019)

If you add an "if (insert something here)" to the question, you leveled up from 1 to 99.


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## bitjacker (Feb 9, 2019)

fiis said:


> If you add an "if (insert something here)" to the question, you leveled up from 1 to 99.


And have keep it civil as your first post.


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## Deleted member 461907 (Feb 9, 2019)

Any proposition that assumes an absolute, like this one is worthless to discuss.

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bitjacker said:


> Political correctness is the problem in a lot of areas right now.  why cant feminism be called toxic for imposing a penalty on anyone with a trace amount of testosterone? Its the male gender's fault for letting outrage culture ruin everyone's lives. Alot of people need to just get punched in the face. Wait, was that toxic?



Fallacy of relative privation. Pointing at something else doesn't justify your point.


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## vinstage (Feb 10, 2019)

Good example of toxic masculinity is Romeo and Juliet but I don’t know about all masculinity being toxic. 
Some of it can be toxic but not all of it.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 10, 2019)

vinstage said:


> Good example of toxic masculinity is Romeo and Juliet



Where? It has been a while since I was subject to it at school, however going by what others have said in this thread if such could things be reasonably defined as overemphasis on "manly" traits then it is not in the establishing framework of the story, a causing factor in the story, a driving factor in the story, responsible for its "tragic" end or reasonably could be said to be the moral of the story. Maybe the opening fight but even that would be something of a stretch.


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## vinstage (Feb 10, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Where? It has been a while since I was subject to it at school, however going by what others have said in this thread if such could things be reasonably defined as overemphasis on "manly" traits then it is not in the establishing framework of the story, a causing factor in the story, a driving factor in the story, responsible for its "tragic" end or reasonably could be said to be the moral of the story. Maybe the opening fight but even that would be something of a stretch.


Depends how you interpret it so maybe I should word it better. The play opens with two servants of the Montague household. Between them they makes jokes of rape “_I will be cruel with the maids, and cut off their heads…the heads of the maids, or their maidenheads”_ _“I_ _will push Montague’s men from the wall, and thrust his maids to the wall”_ and mocking the Capulet household in their fustration to show their masculinity in a toxic manner of comparing rape as an equal to violence (despite neither households knowing why they're truly in conflict, it's pointless but some interpet as most the fighting as a consequence of toxic masculinity. No evidence to back this up however just an interpretation) the proceeding brawl occurs as a result of men simply trying to feel superior. Women are never present during the brawls, only ever after. 

That's just the opening scene. Tybalt embodies the idea of toxic masculinity as he only ever seeks to fight throughout the play even daring to challenge someone at a higher authority to him, something a woman could never possibly do otherwise grave consequences are to occur as demonstrated through Juliet. Instead were a man to do it, it is gruffly re asserted but nothing greater. On the other hand characters such as Romeo trivialise the idea of toxic masculinity (yet the idea conflict overpowers all comes into play as even he turns to violence) and arguably Mercutio.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 10, 2019)

Hmm. I have long been wary of buying any given person's interpretation of a work but that is a step beyond.

Joke time


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Feb 12, 2019)

Totally. And Guaidó will Make Venezuela Great Again!


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## camW00dS (Feb 21, 2019)

no

these trends are so stupid, they develop not equality for women, but sexist oppression of men

the same thing is with all other minorities that somehow stood out of crowd


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## bitjacker (Jun 20, 2019)

Red herring!


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## Glyptofane (Jun 20, 2019)

Yea, so what?


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