# What sequel in a series that went downhill should we look at?



## XDel (Mar 7, 2022)

Pac-Man
Frogger


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## djpannda (Mar 7, 2022)

lol I saw the Image of Rocky.. and went ' OH [email protected], ROCKY X: Back in Russia" but then Remember what kind of person Stallone become...


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## eyeliner (Mar 7, 2022)

Quake IV gets too much of an undeserved hate. I liked it enough for what it is. A character driven story that I very much preferred over the generic grunt against them all that Quake and Quake II were. Despite that, Quake is still my favorite. 

Descent 3 also was a victim of undeserved criticism. Slower paced and nothing necessarily new, true, but pushed the series to a more modern approach, when it most needed. Descent and Descent II are basically the same game.


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## godreborn (Mar 7, 2022)

imo, final fantasy has really gone downhill, and that used to be one of my favorite series.  I don't like how final fantasy xi and final fantasy xiv are called that instead of online and online II or something, plus final fantasy xiii was pretty bad.  I haven't played xv, but I did download the royal version from psn, since it's part of the psn plus collection.  I just keep hoping that they rekindle how I felt about the earlier games some day.  I'm now more into dragon quest and tales.


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## godreborn (Mar 7, 2022)

djpannda said:


> lol I saw the Image of Rocky.. and went ' OH [email protected], ROCKY X: Back in Russia" but then Remember what kind of person Stallone become...


I'm looking forward to rocky 67, where it's just rocky's brain inside of an android body.


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## such (Mar 7, 2022)

eyeliner said:


> Descent and Descent II are basically the same game.


Pretty much mission packs released as sequels. This wouldn't fly in the exact same form right now, and the games changed too much for that, but for Descent, DOOM and probably several others I'm not remembering right it worked out pretty well. I still come back to those two, at least.


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## ChiefReginod (Mar 7, 2022)

New Super Mario Bros (DS)

The game that basically desecrated the 2D Mario series to such a degree that it still hasn't recovered.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 7, 2022)

godreborn said:


> imo, final fantasy has really gone downhill, and that used to be one of my favorite series.  I don't like how final fantasy xi and final fantasy xiv are called that instead of online and online II or something, plus final fantasy xiii was pretty bad.  I haven't played xv, but I did download the royal version from psn, since it's part of the psn plus collection.  I just keep hoping that they rekindle how I felt about the earlier games some day.  I'm now more into dragon quest and tales.


If we are doing Final Fantasy (whether it went down with 7,9 or 10, or indeed 10-2, for this discussion it does not matter) then I will stand up for Final Fantasy 12. Actually had a really good time with that one. Not sure what mods would be suggested today or what goes for emulator enhancements.

Bomberman might also be noted in this. A far cry from its heyday in the PCE/16 bit and Saturn eras, and nowadays mostly considered part of the scenery for any given console. Bomberman Live on XBLA and Bomberman 2 on DS (Japan and Europe only game) if you can deal with gangly bombers are both exceptional versions of the gameplay style though. That said my word tends not to be worth much when it becomes known I like the N64 efforts.

I was not kidding about classic mode in American wasteland either. Had a copy on my original xbox and played it out of boredom one day, actually had a really good time there where the previous efforts post 4 felt more like an obligation when playing them.


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## THEELEMENTKH (Mar 7, 2022)

Three words:

Dino Crisis 3


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## HellGhast (Mar 7, 2022)

Dead Space series from Visceral Games, before they got EAd.


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## Zetman (Mar 7, 2022)

Bravely default II


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## AlexMCS (Mar 7, 2022)

First of all, HoMM3 + XPACs is the absolute epitome of the series, no questions asked.
The newest games HAD the potential of surpassing the old entries, however they are plagued by numerous game-breaking bugs and performance issues, and HoMM3's OST is such a masterpiece that I feel it's incredibly hard to beat that + the game's charming graphics.

AssCreed went downhill simply for the sheer amount of title released, turning the series into a new EA sports game.
But I really liked the Ezio trilogy, and I still wonder if the newer games are any good, but I can't be bothered to go and find out with so many damn titles.


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## MasterJ360 (Mar 7, 2022)

FFX-2(My 1st FF game) I just hope with all the potential FFX-3 talk Nomura learned his lesson.


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## Glyptofane (Mar 7, 2022)

godreborn said:


> I don't like how final fantasy xi and final fantasy xiv are called that instead of online and online II or something


What's even worse is Breath of Fire 6 being a now defunct mobile game. What a way to shit all over the legacy.


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## godreborn (Mar 7, 2022)

oh yeah, I had forgotten about that one.  haha


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## blakeana (Mar 7, 2022)

i personally think LittleBigPlanet 2 is one of the best games in the series, then there was LBP3 that took a shit on the series and overall wasn't enjoyable at all.


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## Anxiety_timmy (Mar 7, 2022)

Epic Mickey was surprisingly good, but EM2 was terrible


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## blakeana (Mar 7, 2022)

Anxiety_timmy said:


> Epic Mickey was surprisingly good, but EM2 was terrible


ooh, i think i used to play that game, not sure if it was 1 or 2, but for these few minutes i really enjoyed the game.


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## pustal (Mar 7, 2022)

MasterJ360 said:


> FFX-2(My 1st FF game) I just hope with all the potential FFX-3 talk Nomura learned his lesson.


Nomura? For as much as I think he should have stuck with character design, that's all he was on X-2. 

The problem with X-2 was that it was very low budged, had half the writters, and only one of the original ones, and production left Kitase's hand to Toryiama.


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## Marc_LFD (Mar 7, 2022)

State of Emergency was a fun game, but the sequel appears to have been awful.

Wonder why Rockstar never brought back that series or the others. All they care about now is GTA and RDR.


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## WG481 (Mar 7, 2022)

godreborn said:


> imo, final fantasy has really gone downhill, and that used to be one of my favorite series.  I don't like how final fantasy xi and final fantasy xiv are called that instead of online and online II or something, plus final fantasy xiii was pretty bad.  I haven't played xv, but I did download the royal version from psn, since it's part of the psn plus collection.  I just keep hoping that they rekindle how I felt about the earlier games some day.  I'm now more into dragon quest and tales.


FFVII is the stopping point for me. The original and the remake are perfection. The rest of the series kinda goes downhill from there.


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## godreborn (Mar 7, 2022)

WG481 said:


> FFVII is the stopping point for me. The original and the remake are perfection. The rest of the series kinda goes downhill from there.


I bought the ps5 version of the remake for maybe $36, new, so I think that was a good purchase.  I haven't started it yet.  21 hours into tales of arise atm.


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## The Real Jdbye (Mar 7, 2022)

Banjo Kazooie has got to be the most notable example. We got a third game that had no place next to the other two, and then nothing. They've basically abandoned the IP at this point.


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## godreborn (Mar 7, 2022)

The Real Jdbye said:


> Banjo Kazooie has got to be the most notable example. We got a third game that had no place next to the other two, and then nothing. They've basically abandoned the IP at this point.


I've been enjoying it on the series x, but I have no idea where to go after the second world.


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## guisadop (Mar 7, 2022)

I see Crash Twinsanity being bashed by a lot of people online, but I think it's the most fun Crash game (except for a few bugs).


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## WG481 (Mar 7, 2022)

godreborn said:


> I bought the ps5 version of the remake for maybe $36, new, so I think that was a good purchase.  I haven't started it yet.  21 hours into tales of arise atm.


It's _really_ good. FFVII's remake should be the industry standard for remakes.


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## AncientBoi (Mar 7, 2022)

Whatever one that has Waalugi in it.


WG481


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## Viri (Mar 7, 2022)

Halo 5. It was so bad, they don't even want to bother porting it to PC. It was also so bad, it turned Halo into a F2P game.


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## CoolMe (Mar 7, 2022)

guisadop said:


> I see Crash Twinsanity being bashed by a lot of people online, but I think it's the most fun Crash game (except for a few bugs).


It's quite good and really enjoyable. The hub areas that you can explore, smash boxes & collect gems are a breath of fresh air to the level-based formula of the previous games, it has great potential, all they need to do is bring some of the iconic villains and throw them in their own hub areas, with their own boss fight at the end after you explore it fully, make the crates count, gem collection unlocks secret areas/levels... Not likely with Activision, let's hope things change with the MS acquisition..
Though it was rushed, it had great variety in the level design.. And of course the soundtrack is _excellent_!!


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## AncientBoi (Mar 7, 2022)

Halo on psp?? Where, where???


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## Nakamichi (Mar 7, 2022)

Pokemon Scarlet and Violet.


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## Marc_LFD (Mar 7, 2022)

guisadop said:


> I see Crash Twinsanity being bashed by a lot of people online, but I think it's the most fun Crash game (except for a few bugs).


Twinsanity and Wrath of Cortex were the last good, true Crash games before the series was properly revived again.

The Japanese covers looked really cool too.

Wrath of Cortex







Twinsanity


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## eriol33 (Mar 7, 2022)

Dragon quest series doesn't seem to sell as high as their japanese market and remain niche for the rest of the world. Still, the franchise is pretty versatile and has expanded into various genres and not relying entirely to the main entries


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## Prior22 (Mar 7, 2022)

Spyro 4. The first three games were fantastic. But the fourth, which was the first non PlayStation exclusive, was a glitchy rushed mess. Pretty much ruined the credibility of the series.


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## osaka35 (Mar 7, 2022)

Disappointing sequels? oh metroid other M for sure. but then they picked it back up and it's in great shape now with dread. So even series at low points can be redeemed with the right team.



WG481 said:


> It's _really_ good. FFVII's remake should be the industry standard for remakes.


eh. it's a great game, but it's a completely different game than the original. it's more of a re-imagining than a re-make. it's nice it came out fun, but it ain't an updated version of the original.

I prefer what they're doing with things like triangle strategy. Squeenix said they might remake the snes final fanatasies in that style of 3d+pixels, which I'm all for.


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## RichardTheKing (Mar 7, 2022)

Okami, Pokemon Ranger.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 7, 2022)

THEELEMENTKH said:


> Three words:
> 
> Dino Crisis 3


That is a brave statement to make. What about DC3 merits a second look? Someone did mention a hack to sort the controls/camera was being attempted (a herculean effort if you ask me). I could possibly see some discussion of Dino Stalker if you like lightgun games but redeeming qualities of 3... harder.



The Real Jdbye said:


> Banjo Kazooie has got to be the most notable example. We got a third game that had no place next to the other two, and then nothing. They've basically abandoned the IP at this point.


They did do banjo pilot on the GBA, actually a fairly serviceable kart racer (though I would still pick many others, even on the GBA, over it). I did actually pick up a copy of nuts and bolts a while back to see how it went/as a ? years on but have not got around to it yet.


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## Marc_LFD (Mar 7, 2022)

Prior22 said:


> Spyro 4. The first three games were fantastic. But the fourth, which was the first non PlayStation exclusive, was a glitchy rushed mess. Pretty much ruined the credibility of the series.


There's no Spyro 4, just shitty Activision Spyro games.

Now, with Spyro having received a remake treatment, we may get Spyro 4 like we got Crash 4.


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## WG481 (Mar 7, 2022)

osaka35 said:


> Disappointing sequels? oh metroid other M for sure. but then they picked it back up and it's in great shape now with dread. So even series at low points can be redeemed with the right team.
> 
> 
> eh. it's a great game, but it's a completely different game than the original. it's more of a re-imagining than a re-make. it's nice it came out fun, but it ain't an updated version of the original.
> ...


The base story hasn't really changed too much. It's the game world that looks way different.


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## Prior22 (Mar 7, 2022)

Marc_78065 said:


> There's no Spyro 4, just shitty Activision Spyro games.
> 
> Now, with Spyro having received a remake treatment, we may get Spyro 4 like we got Crash 4.


Enter the Dragonfly was published by Universal, not Activision.  It was the first game of the series not developed by Insomniac, which was a big negative landmark event of the series.


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## AkiraKurusu (Mar 7, 2022)

Prior22 said:


> Spyro 4. The first three games were fantastic. But the fourth, which was the first non PlayStation exclusive, was a glitchy rushed mess. Pretty much ruined the credibility of the series.


Eh, IMO, Spyro 3 was the worst of the original trilogy - regenerating twin dragons, that shrink in size when hit resulting in smaller targets? Unnecessary skateboarding stages, especially the races? The worst flight speedway gameplay of the three? Other characters with subpar controls?
No thanks; I'll stick with Spyro 1 and 2, thank you.


Hmm...Daytona USA. Haven't seen that series in ages, and the low-poly arcade game is still massive fun.


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## Takokeshi (Mar 7, 2022)

Does Doom 3 count?


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## Marc_LFD (Mar 7, 2022)

Prior22 said:


> Enter the Dragonfly was published by Universal, not Activision.  It was the first game of the series not developed by Insomniac, which was a big negative landmark event of the series.


That's why no one talks about those games.


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## Jayro (Mar 7, 2022)

THEELEMENTKH said:


> Three words:
> 
> Dino Crisis 3


I was hoping the Capcom announcement was gonna be either a Dino Crisis revival/remake, or Dino Crisis 4... But no... We got this shitty-ass Street Fighter 6 crap...


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## Jayro (Mar 7, 2022)

As far as bad sequels go... I'd have to say the Oracle Zelda games for Gameboy were a big downgrade to the series. Sure, we got full color and scrolling worlds, but the dungeons also felt very empty, not varied, and lacked any real theme or creativity. Link's Awakening DX is top-tier 2D Zelda done right, along with Link to the Past and Minish Cap.


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## Takokeshi (Mar 7, 2022)

Jayro said:


> As far as bad sequels go... I'd have to say the Oracle Zelda games for Game ou were a big downgrade to the series. Sure, we got full color and scrolling worlds, but the dungeons also felt very empty, not varied, and lacked any real theme or creativity. Link's Awakening DX is top-tier 2D Zelda done right, along with Link to the Past and Minish Cap.


Seasons had very bland design, Ages on the other hand...

Man, I need to play these again.


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## jt_1258 (Mar 7, 2022)

godreborn said:


> imo, final fantasy has really gone downhill, and that used to be one of my favorite series.  I don't like how final fantasy xi and final fantasy xiv are called that instead of online and online II or something, plus final fantasy xiii was pretty bad.  I haven't played xv, but I did download the royal version from psn, since it's part of the psn plus collection.  I just keep hoping that they rekindle how I felt about the earlier games some day.  I'm now more into dragon quest and tales.


if you do get to playing XV make sure you do it before you play the VII "remake"...holy shit is it a pain going back after being spoiled by a better combat system


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## godreborn (Mar 7, 2022)

jt_1258 said:


> if you do get to playing XV make sure you do it before you play the VII "remake"...holy shit is it a pain going back after being spoiled by a better combat system


yeah, I've heard final fantasy vii remake is really good.  I bought the game on the ps5 even though I don't have a 4K tv.  it's mostly the near instant loading of the system that influenced my decision.


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## pedro702 (Mar 7, 2022)

Marc_78065 said:


> There's no Spyro 4, just shitty Activision Spyro games.
> 
> Now, with Spyro having received a remake treatment, we may get Spyro 4 like we got Crash 4.


Lol so activision spyro games dont count as a 4 entry but after the remakes if activision now makes a new spyro game it will ccount? it will still be made by activision lol it wont be made by insomniac, so now counts and the other 20 or so dont count? whats the diference? they will all be made by activision...


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## Marc_LFD (Mar 7, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> Lol so activision spyro games dont count as a 4 entry but after the remakes if activision now makes a new spyro game it will ccount? it will still be made by activision lol it wont be made by insomniac, so now counts and the other 20 or so dont count? whats the diference? they will all be made by activision...


Quality.

Yes, Activision published the newer Spyro remake, but they've got the rep for the bad Spyro/Crash games.

I played Mind Over Mutant which had very good voice acting, humor, and graphics. However, the gameplay? Just no.

The Skylanders Crash game (ish) was actually pretty fun although I've only ever seen, not played it. I'm not into buying toys to play a game.


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## wiitendo84 (Mar 8, 2022)

Dino crisis


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## fvig2001 (Mar 8, 2022)

I mean the most obvious one is Sonic games. The Wii games were mostly bad. Generations was where it kind of recovered and Mania is regarded as good then Forces was bad.


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## Psionic Roshambo (Mar 8, 2022)

Castlevania... I didn't really like any of the 3D games. After SoTN it seems like the series mostly died, GBA and DS and that one WiiWare game are the last good ones I remember?


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## Marc_LFD (Mar 8, 2022)

fvig2001 said:


> I mean the most obvious one is Sonic games. The Wii games were mostly bad. Generations was where it kind of recovered and Mania is regarded as good then Forces was bad.


I'm hoping the upcoming game is actually good because Forces was pretty bad.


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## medoli900 (Mar 8, 2022)

Wow. It's amazing how 95% of the answers got completely off the question.

My two picks would be Crash Bandicoot and Paper Mario.

I don't think I really have to explain them, but it goes without saying that the OG Crash Bandicoot trilogy is loved. I still have to finish 2 and play 3, but I don't doubt that they're good. Wrath of Cortex was alright. A solid 7.5/10. And then comes the mud. The trilogy remake however was very well received, being the original trilogy. Then It's About Time happened. I don't know why, but after the first few days, the matter was dropped and I never heard of it again. It was a very competent sequel, with some prequel elements sprinkled around, and it was more good Bandicoot action.

As for Paper Mario, oh boy. I don't like Paper Mario 64. So many designs flaws coming from the N64 era. For me, the series took foothold with A Thousand Years Old Doors. What an amazing and engaging game that was. Super Paper Mario was excellent in terms of story-telling and visual designs, but not without some questionable game designs. Thankfully, as a whole, the game still played very nicely. Sticker Stars happened. Color Splash come back in force in terms of gameplay, but is still lacking in terms of main story, ironically being very bland, saved only with the comically meta jokes and side-stories throughout the game. Origami King is a great game, but very often overlooked as "Color Splash 2". It has both improved in term of story (still not at least Super Paper Mario level, but still) and gameplay, offering a refreshing puzzle aspect to the game. Moreover, origami is a genius take on the paper universe to play with.


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## Takokeshi (Mar 8, 2022)

Can I nominate Fallout 76?


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## impeeza (Mar 8, 2022)

Takokeshi said:


> Does Doom 3 count?


Was a doom3? 

Eye of the beholder 3: a total "fiasco"


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## LoggerMan (Mar 8, 2022)

The original Tomb Raider run under CORE is a good example.


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## CeeDee (Mar 8, 2022)

ChiefReginod said:


> New Super Mario Bros (DS)
> 
> The game that basically desecrated the 2D Mario series to such a degree that it still hasn't recovered.


Honestly, I'd disagree. I think the original DS entry, disregarding the following entries, was a solid game. 

It brought back 2D Mario from a long absence, and was a good addition to the DS's library at the time. It enhanced the moveset by adding moves like the wall-jump. The Star Coin system was a solid evolution of Mario World's dragon coins, which were pretty pointless. The unique power-ups were fun. The Mario vs. Luigi multiplayer mode is probably the best multiplayer in a 2D Mario game. 

Now, the games that followed? That's where the real problem lies. They're the ones that reused the same engine, assets, and music, and failed to innovate on the prior games.  It's easy to group in DS with them, but unlike the others, it _was_ unique at the time.


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## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 8, 2022)

Anxiety_timmy said:


> Epic Mickey was surprisingly good, but EM2 was terrible


this post makes me glad i hate both games passionately, because that means i avoided disappointment from the sequel; i got exactly what i expected: a shit video game


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## such (Mar 8, 2022)

AlexMCS said:


> First of all, HoMM3 + XPACs is the absolute epitome of the series, no questions asked.
> The newest games HAD the potential of surpassing the old entries, however they are plagued by numerous game-breaking bugs and performance issues, and HoMM3's OST is such a masterpiece that I feel it's incredibly hard to beat that + the game's charming graphics.


I'll expand on that: the very first thing Ubisoft did to HoMM (and to M&M) was replace any ounce of personality those games had left with bland sewage. Not a good foundation. I miss that world dearly, it's extremely underrated.


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## Taleweaver (Mar 8, 2022)

Unreal...managed to go from great to "wtf is this supposed to be?" after a single entry (well...okay: one and a half, as return to na pa li was great as well).
Unreal tournament follows sonic and windows naming schemes in the good-bad-good-bad line-up. (UT99, UT2003, UT2004, UT3...and then epic went with fortnite instead of an actually good game  ).


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## raxadian (Mar 8, 2022)

*Points to Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart.  That's how you revive a dead videogame series, not with a cartoon movie.


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## XDel (Mar 8, 2022)

So in theory, the NVIDIA Shield should be capable of this as well.


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## leon315 (Mar 8, 2022)

Award definitely goes to *Metal Gear Survive*!


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## zxr750j (Mar 8, 2022)

Far Cry 3 was brilliant, now playing 6 but it doesn't grab me (same for 4 and 5).


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## ChiefReginod (Mar 8, 2022)

CeeDee said:


> Honestly, I'd disagree. I think the original DS entry, disregarding the following entries, was a solid game.
> 
> It brought back 2D Mario from a long absence, and was a good addition to the DS's library at the time. It enhanced the moveset by adding moves like the wall-jump. The Star Coin system was a solid evolution of Mario World's dragon coins, which were pretty pointless. The unique power-ups were fun. The Mario vs. Luigi multiplayer mode is probably the best multiplayer in a 2D Mario game.
> 
> Now, the games that followed? That's where the real problem lies. They're the ones that reused the same engine, assets, and music, and failed to innovate on the prior games.  It's easy to group in DS with them, but unlike the others, it _was_ unique at the time.



I agree with most of what you said, and honestly I enjoyed the NSMB series enough to have 100%'d everything through New Super Luigi, but it's still a bad sequel compared to everything that came before it. No one would put it in the same league as SMB3, SMW or Yoshi's Island.

At the end of the day it was a downgrade, but as with everything Nintendo, people praised it anyway and the downgrades became permanent because they sold.


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## CoolMe (Mar 8, 2022)

Jak & Dexter series it needs to come back imo, it ended with a racing game which is quite decent but the 2 psp games were a disappointment after it.. Now with since they're working on a J&D movie there's a chance they're already working on it, or they will. 


RichardTheKing said:


> Okami, Pokemon Ranger.


Okami? The DS game was quite good from what i remember?.. Or do you mean "downhill" as in we've never got a sequel since then..


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## ZeroFX (Mar 8, 2022)

AC after rogue, persona after 2, bokujo monogatari after wonderful life, rune factory after 4, BD after second, FF after xii, KH after 1 or 2, The Sims after 2, any Ubisoft, EA, Obsidian game after "modern times"... The list goes on and on...


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## CompSciOrBust (Mar 8, 2022)

Saints Row 4. It was a good game but it wasn't a good Saints Row. Gat Out of Hell was also a bad Saints Row game as well as a bad game in general.


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## Jayro (Mar 8, 2022)

zxr750j said:


> Far Cry 3 was brilliant, now playing 6 but it doesn't grab me (same for 4 and 5).


4 was the most boring I had ever seen.


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## RichardTheKing (Mar 8, 2022)

CoolMe said:


> Jak & Dexter series it needs to come back imo, it ended with a racing game which is quite decent but the 2 psp games were a disappointment after it.. Now with since they're working on a J&D movie there's a chance they're already working on it, or they will.
> 
> Okami? The DS game was quite good from what i remember?.. Or do you mean "downhill" as in we've never got a sequel since then..


Jak & Daxter I agree with; I've never gotten to play that series, since I never really heard about it as a child, aside from references in Ratchet & Clank.

As for Okami, yes the DS game was indeed "quite good" (though it does have issues with permanently-missable sidequest stuff, as a result of only being able to visit a lot of areas once or twice, and combat is definitely very simplified due to it being a DS game), but I mentioned that series because A) OkamiDen has never been rereleased on more modern systems, and B) there's never been a third game.

I didn't write that down initially because I just quickly posted my comment, since I had other stuff to do; I had intended on elaborating, but never got back to it until now. My bad!


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## RichardTheKing (Mar 8, 2022)

ZeroFX said:


> AC after rogue, persona after 2, bokujo monogatari after wonderful life, rune factory after 4, BD after second, FF after xii, KH after 1 or 2, The Sims after 2, any Ubisoft, EA, Obsidian game after "modern times"... The list goes on and on...


I agree with "Bravely Default after Second" and "Final Fantasy after XII", but Persona? No way.
Assassin's Creed Origins was decent, though admittedly I never did reach the credits, and there was that incredibly stupid segment where you're forced to play as Bayek's weaker and less-interesting wife to climb a tower (and I think she also got a naval segment too?), so...sure, I guess I can accept your first option.

The rest of the specific game series you mentioned, I've never really played, so I've got no opinion on those.


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## templeofhylia (Mar 8, 2022)

ChiefReginod said:


> New Super Mario Bros (DS)
> 
> The game that basically desecrated the 2D Mario series to such a degree that it still hasn't recovered.


desecrated how?


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## RichardTheKing (Mar 8, 2022)

ChiefReginod said:


> New Super Mario Bros (DS)
> 
> The game that basically desecrated the 2D Mario series to such a degree that it still hasn't recovered.


I actually quite enjoy NSMB2, so...no?
Though I really dislike NSMB and NSMBU, and have never played NSMBWii.


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## ZeroFX (Mar 8, 2022)

RichardTheKing said:


> I agree with "Bravely Default after Second" and "Final Fantasy after XII", but Persona? No way.
> Assassin's Creed Origins was decent, though admittedly I never did reach the credits, and there was that incredibly stupid segment where you're forced to play as Bayek's weaker and less-interesting wife to climb a tower (and I think she also got a naval segment too?), so...sure, I guess I can accept your first option.
> 
> The rest of the specific game series you mentioned, I've never really played, so I've got no opinion on those.


P2 was great, P3 was kinda good, P4 was decent, p5 was ok, looks like downhill to me. But I agree with you that they aren't bad, just the start of a downfall. AC is not even AC after syndicate... It's like "let's start a new IP but use the famous name to give a kickstart".


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## ChiefReginod (Mar 8, 2022)

templeofhylia said:


> desecrated how?


Forgettable power-ups, shifting the focus away from the "simply fun" gameplay to the collect-a-thon aspect and generally uninspired design. The NES, SNES and even GBA Marios all strove to be great. NSMB strove to be passable.

As I said a few posts back, I actually liked the NSMB series for what it was. But taken as sequels to the legendary 2D Marios before it, they're a huge letdown and still have yet to do anything really memorable. You could make a case for multiplayer, but what else?


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## Valwinz (Mar 8, 2022)

Rune Factory 5


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## HarveyHouston (Mar 10, 2022)

Mario and Zelda franchises. 'Nuff said.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 10, 2022)

HarvHouHacker said:


> Mario and Zelda franchises. 'Nuff said.


What games in the mario and zelda franchises should we look at if we dropped out at various points? Plenty around here might not have gone in for them since the gamecube or even n64 days as most things following that were rather different or unlikely to be in top games lists all these years on.


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## HarveyHouston (Mar 11, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> What games in the mario and zelda franchises should we look at if we dropped out at various points? Plenty around here might not have gone in for them since the gamecube or even n64 days as most things following that were rather different or unlikely to be in top games lists all these years on.


Pick an area. I think you'll find someone who wasn't too thrilled at how those franchises went no matter what game you choose. Hence why the first is always the best.

If I _had_ to choose, I think it would probably be Super Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild. I don't even care about sales figures and what mainstream critics say.

Super Mario Odyssey:

The problem with relying on nostalgia: https://goombastomp.com/super-mario-odyssey-all-style-no-substance/
The game gets political: https://www.newstatesman.com/scienc...per-mario-odyssey-turned-me-feminist-meninist
Want a better list? This was BEFORE the game was released: https://www.thegamer.com/reasons-super-mario-odyssey-is-going-to-suck/
Breath of the Wild:

Confusing UIs and boring side quests? I'll pass: https://techraptor.net/gaming/opinions/weakest-links-flaws-in-breath-of-wild
HYPE HYPE HYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...Seriously, just chill out, man! https://www.heypoorplayer.com/2017/03/10/zelda-breath-of-the-wild-hype-is-unreal/
Wow, a glitch? In a Nintendo game that they have worked on for YEARS?!? ...So what else is new? https://www.thegamer.com/breath-of-the-wild-glitch/


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