# The Bill That Could End Internet Privacy



## Gahars (Jan 21, 2012)

Child pornography is horrible, vile, and despicable; I hope we're all in agreement there. People have been fighting against it for some time, and it is a cause I'm sympathetic to.

Well, it seems that a new bill has been brought before the House targeting child pornography , and its authors were just a tad bit overzealous...



> ...under language approved 19 to 10 by a House committee, the firm that sells _you_Internet access would be required to track all of _your Internet activity_ and save it for 18 months, along with _your_ name, the address where _you_ live, _your_ bank account numbers, _your_ credit card numbers, and IP addresses _you've_ been assigned.
> 
> As written, The Protecting Children from Internet Pornographers Act of 2011 doesn't require that someone be under investigation on child pornography charges in order for police to access their Internet history -- being suspected of any crime is enough. (It may even be made available in civil matters like divorce trials or child custody battles.) Nor do police need probable cause to search this information.


Source: The Atlantic

...Yikes.

(As with SOPA and PIPA, I think it is worth mentioning a few things. 1) The entire House, nor the rest of the American government, does not automatically condone this bill. 2) The bill, while making it past committee, has not been brought before the House yet. It may take some time, or it may not happen at all.)

Honestly, I'm sympathetic to the authors of this bill; I really am. Call me an optimist, but I don't see any real malice behind this bill. I think some well intentioned Representatives, seeking a way to combat a horrible and violating crime, tried to create a bill that would put a stop to it once and for all. Not really understanding the internet or what the terms of the bill would mean, they overreached. Before anybody starts raging that the government is trying to spy on us, 1984 style, it's important to remember that the road to hell is often paved with the best of intentions.

I don't expect that this bill, in this day and age, will be signed into law (let alone survive the House). Still, the blackout on Wednesday was a powerful show of the impact that the internet can have on the legislative process. If you oppose the provisions of this bill, channel that rage positively and contact your local representative (If you live in the US, of course).

If Wednesday was the first step towards establishing the influence of the internet (and the people who use and understand it), this could be the proof that the Blackout was not an isolated incident.  

Then again, it might not be all bad. After all, I would finally have an excuse to play this all day. Freedom or Bowie? Huh... tough call.


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Jan 21, 2012)

I knew we'd see this on the 'temp pretty quickly.

How to be a politician:

1: Write vaguely worded laws designed to infringe upon the rights of every American citizen and chip away at our already crumbling freedom.
2: Give the laws names that either question a person's patriotism or their human decency if they don't support said law.
3: Shove that bitch through Congress.
4: ?????
5: Profit!


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

I don't get it - aren't most CPers not even using regular WWW (web sites)?  I thought they forced them to darknets or something?  This bill is clearly just to help spy on people, period.  It's clearly almost useless for serious abusers.

Oh trust me, there'll be all sorts of profit.  Think of who gets paid to go through all that information...  heh


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## Jennyfurr (Jan 21, 2012)

They'll just look for any way to get what they want.


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## Schlupi (Jan 21, 2012)

Vulpes Abnocto said:


> I knew we'd see this on the 'temp pretty quickly.
> 
> How to be a politician:
> 
> ...




Ugh... Why won't this all stop? I'm totally just gonna leave the country...


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## ferofax (Jan 21, 2012)

The road to hell IS paved with good intentions. It's often the goody-goodies that make it there.


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Jan 21, 2012)

Schlupi said:


> Ugh... Why won't this all stop? I'm totally just gonna leave the country...



Totally understand that sentiment. I've had the same thought a number of times in the past few years. 
Only problem is that it isn't all that simple to get out.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/

If you choose to do so, good luck to you. 
I'm staying behind to fight.


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## Majorami (Jan 21, 2012)

Whether its meant to "protect children" or not, any bill or proposition that mentions privacy and how to deal with it if often cordinated with taking away people's rights. Privacy IS a right, and unless you've broken an extreme law like stabbing someone or kidnapping, or something that radical, then detailed information about your home/internet life should remain private/off any record. I bring up this because I read "being suspect of any crime is enough."

That is EXTREMELY vague...

It could mean even though you haven't been convicted of anything, they'll still have rights to look over your history, and maybe get you on something that they weren't looking for. Maybe I'm just uneducated, but as vague as that phrase is, it could mean you get a speeding ticket could justify looking into your internet history, and then make up totally different crime like bogus copyright violation claims.

And the reason why they'd do this is because making you pay fines or rot in a prison is profitable. United States brags about being the "Land of the free" but the truth is we have the highest ratio of population in prison than any other nation in the world (mostly because of petty drug charges) because enforcing laws on people makes money.

Unless they specify how severe a crime has to be to warrant looking into your private life, any bill that would sacrifice privacy for safety is harmful. Of course it also goes back to the part about "being suspect is enough" meaning you don't even have to have done anything wrong to begin with, they can just secretly invade your internet/personal history on whim.


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## Thesolcity (Jan 21, 2012)

Well that was quick. Maddox was right, although this bill isn't QUITE as shitty, it still is. Wolf in sheep's clothing anyone?
Anyway, bills like this is exactly why "Incognito Mode" was made. (Ok, maybe not exactly..... )
Still should/would provide useful in the event of this bill along with betterprivacy, and auto-clearing browsing data on exit. The police shall never know I go to certain torrent sites. 



EDIT: Wasn't a similar bill passed in EUR last year under the "Protecting Children from Porn" veil? Or was it Australia? I don't remember...


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

Majorami said:


> And the reason why they'd do this is because making you pay fines or rot in a prison is profitable. United States brags about being the "Land of the free" but the truth is we have the highest ratio of population in prison than any other nation in the world (mostly because of petty drug charges) because enforcing laws on people makes money.


Exactly what I was thinking...


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## Fudge (Jan 21, 2012)

Majorami said:


> Whether its meant to "protect children" or not, any bill or proposition that mentions privacy and how to deal with it if often cordinated with taking away people's rights. Privacy IS a right, and unless you've broken an extreme law like stabbing someone or kidnapping, or something that radical, then detailed information about your home/internet life should remain private/off any record. I bring up this because I read "being suspect of any crime is enough."
> 
> That is EXTREMELY vague...
> 
> ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yndfqN1VKhY


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

Well, making everyone a felon would be a de facto way to remove almost all your protections from having your civil rights infringed.  Just look at my signature to see what I mean.  Even if you just have one felon in your household, you can't have a gun.  If you're a felon, you can't 'vote the bums out'.  It also makes it really hard to get a job.  In fact, many jobs are hard to get just because you have a relative who's a felon!


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## Hells Malice (Jan 21, 2012)

It's far too broad to be for the sole purpose of protecting children, and even still, it wouldn't much help.

CP is horrid, and the animals who create it are even more so. But this bill would hurt more than it helped.


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## Magmorph (Jan 21, 2012)

We need a law that makes it illegal to give bills misleading names. We will call it the don't shoot puppies in the face act.


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

One ancronym that will be very familar to teenagers in the next 5 years if these kinds of laws actually worked: I2P

I can see them trying to get some free music like they did the year before and it was not easy anymore.  They still would be cheapskates, so their friend would show them how to install it or do it for them.

They are trying to create a law like that - antirider reforms.  Good luck with that one - they make a lot of money for themselves and their states off of riders!


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## FireGrey (Jan 21, 2012)

I really hope these new stupid american laws won't effect Australia.


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## Sheimi (Jan 21, 2012)

Isn't that invasion of privacy for Internet Service Providers seeing your Bank account and Credit Card numbers? I do not need those type of people to see my personal info. Monitoring your internet usage and what you do. Still invasion of privacy.



Spoiler



I guess the people who wanted PIPA and SOPA to pass didn't get what they want!


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## sjones900 (Jan 21, 2012)

If something like this actually passed.. I'm moving to Canada.


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## kupo3000 (Jan 21, 2012)

Too much collateral damage if this is actually passed.


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## Oveneise (Jan 21, 2012)

This is just as - if not worse - than the patriot act. I'm against CP, but this is stepping over the fucking line. Not the normal line, mind you, the fucking line.


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## sjones900 (Jan 21, 2012)

Oveneise said:


> This is just as - if not worse - than the patriot act. I'm against CP, but this is stepping over the fucking line. Not the normal line, mind you, the fucking line.


I could deal with the patriot act, that probably saved lives. However just to combat Piracy... I don't think so.


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## Bladexdsl (Jan 21, 2012)

american polititions just keep getting stupider and stupider. and i thought our polos did some stupid fucking things (gst, work policies, trying to tax the miners)


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## Hop2089 (Jan 21, 2012)

Can't the government just go into the darkest reaches of the net to nab the pedos, they can do it at anytime and it's far better and easier than enacting Ishihara class legistlation.


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Jan 21, 2012)

sjones900 said:


> I could deal with the patriot act, that probably saved lives. However just to combat Piracy... I don't think so.



Are you kidding me? The patriot act never saved anyone's life. Most of the time it was used to imprison pot smokers or push around homeless people.


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## sjones900 (Jan 21, 2012)

Vulpes Abnocto said:


> sjones900 said:
> 
> 
> > I could deal with the patriot act, that probably saved lives. However just to combat Piracy... I don't think so.
> ...


Well from what I've read most of the bills that have supposed "good intentions" almost always get abused, so it doesn't surprise me. I don't know a lot about the Patriot Act since it was passed when I was about 9. If only one of these bills actually did what the name implied..


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

I highly suggest that you read 1984...  It'll clear things up about names of laws very fast.


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## blahkamehameha (Jan 21, 2012)

Aren't there more important things going on in the world? Seems like that is where people with power should be focusing their attention, instead of trying to catch millions of americans downloading a movie or having a picture of a naked 17 year old girl saved...


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Jan 21, 2012)

@sjones900 Alright, that can be forgiven. I was 21 and fully aware of the bullshit happening all around our country. 

Of course at that point I was optimistic that ten years down the road such bullshit would be past. 

Seems I was horribly mistaken.


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

Vulpes Abnocto said:


> @sjones900 Alright, that can be forgiven. I was 21 and fully aware of the bullshit happening all around our country.
> 
> Of course at that point I was optimistic that ten years down the road such bullshit would be past.
> 
> Seems I was horribly mistaken.


Well, they kept the gold ban for decades after WWII.  Wasn't it Nixen that revoked it?  Or signed the revocation, at least?


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## gloweyjoey (Jan 21, 2012)

Thesolcity said:


> Anyway, bills like this is exactly why "Incognito Mode" was made. (Ok, maybe not exactly..... )
> Still should/would provide useful in the event of this bill along with betterprivacy, and auto-clearing browsing data on exit. The police shall never know I go to certain torrent sites.


Your "incognito mode" and clearing of browsing data does nothing as your ISP still has a log of every site you visit.


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## CarbonX13 (Jan 21, 2012)

This sounds exactly like Bill C-51 _Investigative Powers for the 21st Century Act_ introduced in the last parliament session up here in Canada. That along with the _Copyright Modernization Act_ currently in parliament, which is basically the Canadian equivalent of a SOPA/PIPA sort of bill. The difference is that parliament bills hardly get enough attention here (politics are a practical joke really), so these bills can easily be passed by our current Conservative majority parliament without a widespoken opposition to it. How governments are able to pass these bills under so called "free" and "democratic" societies is a serious issue that hasn't been addressed properly yet.


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## Thesolcity (Jan 21, 2012)

gloweyjoey said:


> Thesolcity said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, bills like this is exactly why "Incognito Mode" was made. (Ok, maybe not exactly..... )
> ...



Are you forgetting an IP doesn't equal a person? (i.e. They would have to have a local log that you personally did that which those methods effectively erase).

Link to the article on that ruling.


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## gloweyjoey (Jan 21, 2012)

Thesolcity said:


> gloweyjoey said:
> 
> 
> > Thesolcity said:
> ...


no i am not forgetting, it's irrelevant, regardless of who does it, regardless of if you clear your web history, there is indeed a log of sites that are being visited. Period, the end. So, when your ISP sends the acount holder of your internet connection a notice that they know someone downloaded the last epidsode of "True Blood" and theyd like for whoever it is to stop, they don't care if it was you or your dad or you sister.

It's even in one of these almost a half a year old articles Gahars posted...
At the moment, Internet service providers typically discard any log file that's no longer required for business reasons such as network monitoring, fraud prevention, or billing disputes. Companies do, however, alter that general rule when contacted by police performing an investigation--a practice called data preservation.
A 1996 federal law called the Electronic Communication Transactional Records Act regulates data preservation. It requires Internet providers to retain any "record" in their possession for 90 days "upon the request of a governmental entity."


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## wasim (Jan 21, 2012)

Is this just in US or .. ?


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## Jamstruth (Jan 21, 2012)

Thesolcity said:


> Well that was quick. Maddox was right, although this bill isn't QUITE as shitty, it still is. Wolf in sheep's clothing anyone?
> Anyway, bills like this is exactly why "Incognito Mode" was made. (Ok, maybe not exactly..... )
> Still should/would provide useful in the event of this bill along with betterprivacy, and auto-clearing browsing data on exit. The police shall never know I go to certain torrent sites.


This bill is talking about saving Internet tracks ISP side. Private Mode only stops saving it to your computer.
This bill is worrying because some representatives might just see "protect from child porn" and immediately approve without reading.


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## gloweyjoey (Jan 21, 2012)

Gahars said:


> Honestly, I'm sympathetic to the authors of this bill


You mean Lamar Smith? The same guy behind SOPA and PIPA?

The issue im sympathetic about... The author, not so much...

Good intentions? You wish.


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## Thesolcity (Jan 21, 2012)

gloweyjoey said:


> -Snip-



Ok, so are you talking about what they'd need to prompt an investigation? I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in that case, what I was trying to state is how to make sure they can't pin it on you should an investigation happen. If this is not the case, please disregard this message. 



Jamstruth said:


> -snip-



Same, I wasn't talking about preventing an investigation. I was talking about covering your tracks so incriminating evidence can't be found should an investigation launch.


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## gloweyjoey (Jan 21, 2012)

Thesolcity said:


> Ok, so are you talking about what they'd need to prompt an investigation? I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in that case, what I was trying to state is how to make sure they can't pin it on you should an investigation happen. If this is not the case, please disregard this message.


Im saying clearing your history or using "incognito mode" do nothing against not pinning you on something. If you are a suspect in something say like illeagal porn distrubution, and you got busted by giving it to nark or your friend and they got busted or something, they would then use the logs your ISP keeps, even if you used the methods you suggested, they would still know it was you going to www.illeagalpornsite.com.


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## Thesolcity (Jan 21, 2012)

gloweyjoey said:


> Thesolcity said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so are you talking about what they'd need to prompt an investigation? I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in that case, what I was trying to state is how to make sure they can't pin it on you should an investigation happen. If this is not the case, please disregard this message.
> ...



I'm really tired so please excuse me if I don't have this right. So if someone else got busted for a crime, how would they know it was you? Are you saying your friend gets busted and a confession comes out saying it was you? But then wouldn't they have to prove you did it and not some virus? Since an IP doesn't equal a person wouldn't those logs would be useless without browsing data tying it to you? Let me see if I can get a better understanding from projecting a hypothetical situation:

OK, in my network, all devices share the same IP. Now, given the possible of routers being hacked how easy would it be to get away with just saying "I don't know, either it was a virus or someone cracked my network", Unless ISP's log MAC addresses now (Which I wouldn't know about), how would they prove it was you? What I'm trying to say is, (if known) what specifically is logged and what provisions does this bill contain that would allow ISP IP logging (AFAIK) to be incriminating evidence if illegal material is found?


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

Well, technically, property goes on trial in the USA so you can have your home taken on suspicion of drug dealing.  It's an end-run around the 4th amendment.  So I'm sure there's some dumba$$ judge who'll allow them to prosecute you on that flimsy evidence as well.  

http://sanhati.com/excerpted/4523/  Yet another law that makes you go "WTH?!" when you read about it.  See "_Authority to criminalize protests on GM crops"._ BTW, This one is from the fine folks that run India.


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## NES SNES V.B. N64 G.C. Wii WiiU (Jan 21, 2012)

I can see the American politicians are getting bright ideas recently. 

But then again our Aussie politicians aren't much better lately *cough*carbontax*cough*.


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## Domination (Jan 21, 2012)

Thesolcity said:


> I'm really tired so please excuse me if I don't have this right. So if someone else got busted for a crime, how would they know it was you? Are you saying your friend gets busted and a confession comes out saying it was you? But then wouldn't they have to prove you did it and not some virus? Since an IP doesn't equal a person wouldn't those logs would be useless without browsing data tying it to you? Let me see if I can get a better understanding from projecting a hypothetical situation:
> 
> OK, in my network, all devices share the same IP. Now, given the possible of routers being hacked how easy would it be to get away with just saying "I don't know, either it was a virus or someone cracked my network", Unless ISP's log MAC addresses now (Which I wouldn't know about), how would they prove it was you? What I'm trying to say is, (if known) what specifically is logged and what provisions does this bill contain that would allow ISP IP logging (AFAIK) to be incriminating evidence if illegal material is found?



The bill doesn't require much of evidence to view your private data, you just have to be suspected for the crime. Whether you get imprisoned or not is a different matter. The prosecutor would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt you are guilty of the crime, and like you said it's really hard to pinpoint the crime. Then It would just be wasting the taxpayers' monies on a baseless prosecution.

To really prove it to some certainty I feel it would at least require finding the accused in possession of the material to really show anything. You certainly don't have to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, but basing your case on slightly ambiguous evidence such as IP logs etc, makes it hard to prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. And if it doesn't allow IP logging to be used as evidence, it shows even greater redundancy of the bill. I don't see how this would help the courts.

Furthermore, I believe it's in contravention of US citizens' constitutional liberties. Recording everyone's internet history is obviously in violation of privacy. I don't see how this can pass and not get struck down by the courts.


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## Ultymoo (Jan 21, 2012)

In a nutshell: Guilty until proven innocent. That's my government! *Awesomeface*


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## Coto (Jan 21, 2012)

If this passes *because those *********** bunch of m****** just want some money* *looking at U.S right now...* i'll formerly support *all* the *illegal* causes they (US government) are objecting right now.

This time, I really hope* the whole world puts an end* to things like this, happening over and over, over the US congress.-


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## FireGrey (Jan 21, 2012)

NES SNES V.B. N64 G.C. Wii said:


> I can see the American politicians are getting bright ideas recently.
> 
> But then again our Aussie politicians aren't much better lately *cough*carbontax*cough*.


you just made me cry a little by that cough :


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## Shadow&Light (Jan 21, 2012)

Domination said:


> Thesolcity said:
> 
> 
> > I'm really tired so please excuse me if I don't have this right. So if someone else got busted for a crime, how would they know it was you? Are you saying your friend gets busted and a confession comes out saying it was you? But then wouldn't they have to prove you did it and not some virus? Since an IP doesn't equal a person wouldn't those logs would be useless without browsing data tying it to you? Let me see if I can get a better understanding from projecting a hypothetical situation:
> ...


It is, atually, quite difficult, It's a fight between freedom and laws/regulations...

Okey, so let's put it very simple, freedom, do whatever you want anytime you want(consider murders, child porn, etc)... Now laws... The law is the base of order, it is created to form and unify a community, it's basically "you can do whatever you want, whenever you want.... BUT some few things(to protect human rights, as example).
But... What the hell happens when our freedom exceed regulations or law it self...? Easy, they get desperate, create some new dumb bill to put a stop to these acts(more than freedom, it's just sick...)

The law just doesn't impose whatever they want, just to fuck ppl in their nations, it is regulation indeed... but.... at what cost?
Their answer: "Let's fuck everyone, so we ensure that no one will ever do something bad(or infringe any law)


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## Gahars (Jan 21, 2012)

I remind you, if you really oppose the terms of this bill, then contact your Representative in the House; forum rage means nothing if you don't speak out where those that vote can hear you. Make sure that your Representative understands the dangers of this bill, both to the internet and to his chances of reelection.

And to show that I am walking the walk, here's the message I sent.



Spoiler






> *Name of Representative*,
> 
> As one of your constituents, I appreciate your stance against the Stop Online Piracy Act. However, a new piece of legislation is making its way through the House that, if passed, could be even more damaging to freedom on the internet.
> 
> ...






All it takes is just a few minutes of your time; your vote is valuable, so they will be more than willing to listen. If you need help finding your Representative, you can use this website.


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## Shadow&Light (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks for the concern, but im note raging at all, just trying to explain to my self the why and how(of course, i posted it cause i learned a lot of your comments, every day you learn something new) and, as you said, every vote counts, im sure we all agree with that, and thanks again, for the links and info :3


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## Gahars (Jan 21, 2012)

Shadow&Light said:


> Thanks for the concern, but im note raging at all, just trying to explain to my self the why and how(of course, i posted it cause i learned a lot of your comments, every day you learn something new) and, as you said, every vote counts, im sure we all agree with that, and thanks again, for the links and info :3



Oh don't worry, that wasn't targeted at you specifically. Whenever there is a thread like this, there is a ton of rage thrown in the direction of the US government.

Is a lot of it unwarranted? Not necessarily, but it's not really productive either. I'm just reminding people that there is a positive way to channel that outrage.


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## Janthran (Jan 21, 2012)

Good luck complaining about this. They'll just suspect you of CPing.


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## Engert (Jan 21, 2012)

I wonder when will americans reach the tipping point when they finally overthrow the government. Very unlikely though. Most are dumb fat and happy, watching American idol so things like liberty and privacy are not important.


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## alphamule (Jan 21, 2012)

The congressmen and women have been replying to those letters with a "NANANA Can't hear you NANANANA Gonna do it anyway NANANA" response.  That or they'll say something like "But what about theour children?!" just to shut you up.  I predict a lot of senators prematurely getting the boot in 2012.



Shadow&Light said:


> The law just doesn't impose whatever they want, just to fuck ppl in their nations, it is regulation indeed... but.... at what cost?
> Their answer: "Let's fuck everyone, so we ensure that no one will ever do something bad(or infringe any law)


Naw, more like "so we can make sure no one dies a virgin!"  

To the person talking about the assumption of guilt, at least we don't use the Xinjiang procedure to deal with people.  (caution:  very evil/unethical - might not want to look it up)




Engert said:


> I wonder when will americans reach the tipping point when they finally overthrow the government. Very unlikely though. Most are dumb fat and happy, watching American idol so things like liberty and privacy are not important.


It's already happening.  There's a lot of new recall ballots coming out.  If the new guys repeat the same...  Gonna be some major hell to pay.  (And they're just that sociopathic/short-sighted)


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## stanleyopar2000 (Jan 21, 2012)

seems like the government seems pretty hellbent on controlling the internet mass media and won't stop until they get it.

wonder if this is a crucial first step of their New World Order plan.....


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## alphamule (Jan 22, 2012)

stanleyopar2000 said:


> seems like the government seems pretty hellbent on controlling the internet mass media and won't stop until they get it.
> 
> wonder if this is a curcial first step of their New World Order plan.....


"Old World Order" you mean?  That describes the fuedal era, heh.  

Oh, and mass media (broadcast opinions) is not the same as the media of the masses (personal speech or writing of opinions).   Yeah, English has some sucky issues with double meanings.


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