# GBAtemps' Gaming Fight Club #1: Super Mario 64 vs Banjo Kazooie



## keven3477 (Sep 22, 2015)

Don't know much about banjo so I guess I am choosing Mario. At least he is still appearing in games.


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## BadJuju (Sep 22, 2015)

Bruh. Banjo-Kazooie wins hands down. Rare dominated the N64.


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## VinsCool (Sep 22, 2015)

Super Mario 64 established the base in 3d platforming.

Banjo Kazooie took it, and made it better.

By assumption, Banjo Kazooie automatically wins


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## endoverend (Sep 22, 2015)

And his name is JOHN CENA!

Srsly tho, Mario 64 by ten million miles. This one just comes down to what kind of nostalgia goggles you're wearing.


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## LunaWofl (Sep 22, 2015)

Banjo Kazooie

You said it yourself, Banjo Kazooie expanded on the formula in multiple aspects. 
The only means someone would select Mario 64 is if they should either 
Firstly; argue that the expansion of formula was poorly executed 
or 
Secondly; succumb to admission of nostalgia 
or 
Thirdly; revel in ignorant bliss over having not played it.


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## BLsquared (Sep 22, 2015)

I liked SM64 quite a bit years ago, and have not played Banjo.
But from watching videos and researching, the data tells me that, as you said, Banjo improved upon Mario 64.
Logically, Banjo-Kazooie wins.


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## endoverend (Sep 22, 2015)

There's no "logic" to decide which is better. You can't say that just because one game is the logical successor to another that it is objectively better. The same argument could be made that New Super Mario Bros. U could be objectively better than Super Mario Bros. for the NES but in that case it's not necessarily true.


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## BLsquared (Sep 22, 2015)

endoverend said:


> There's no "logic" to decide which is better. You can't say that just because one game is the logical successor to another that it is objectively better. The same argument could be made that New Super Mario Bros. U could be objectively better than Super Mario Bros. for the NES but in that case it's not necessarily true.


Fair point. It is really all opinion, then.
I apologize for trying to sound smart.


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## Chary (Sep 22, 2015)

Both games have aged pretty well, and they're the pinnacle of platforming, as far as the N64 goes. But Banjo is superior for reasons already stated, and come on, no one can deny the greatness of Grant Kirkhope's compositions.


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## bowser (Sep 22, 2015)

Arrggghh...I can't choose! Both were equally freaking incredible.


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## gudenau (Sep 22, 2015)

I say SM64 because it was "free", and I never played the other one. Plus, I find SM64 speedruns quite fun, there are some neat glitches in it.

Edit:
First page, wow!


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## Foxi4 (Sep 22, 2015)

Mario 64. I never liked Banjo all that much.


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## [^Blark^] (Sep 22, 2015)

Mario 64

I liked the world design and it had a better OST in my opinion.

Jolly Roger bay (my favorite)


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## Monado_III (Sep 22, 2015)

SM64, because it _did_ more. Banjo may be the better game, but take away the SM64 formula and design and you have a 'meh' game. People today still point to SM64 when talking about how to make good 3d platformers and more or less good 3rd person games as a whole. Banjo doesn't have anything close to that kind of legacy, it set the standard for... collectathons, which is a tiny fraction of the games made today.


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## Wellington2k (Sep 22, 2015)

Banjo-Kazooie for the win! XD

Reason:
The game itself feels very polished. I love the story, it has more memorable characters than Mario 64, and... Grant Kirkhope.
Plus, I've Skyped with the developers before, and they are some of the coolest guys I know.


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## ShonenJump (Sep 22, 2015)

Sm64 came first. Then rare took a look at sm64 and put more things on it. SM64 had a huge impact for the time. So i choose the freedom 3d adventure game: SM64


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## ShadowOne333 (Sep 22, 2015)

Banjo is more of a cult classic.
SM64 is a classic in the entirety of the word, if not even a legend on 3D gaming.

SM64 for all the innovations it brought and to show us how delightful and entertaining the 3D world would be from there onwards.


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## Adeka (Sep 22, 2015)

Mario 64.  My second favorite mario game


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## linkofhyrule1 (Sep 22, 2015)

Geez, both were so excellent.
But Mario 64 lacked one exciting feature...


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## Selim873 (Sep 22, 2015)

To me, they're both completely different games, despite fitting the same genre.  You know what I'm saying?  Although, I've never actually beaten Banjo Kazooie, but that's not gonna put my vote on Mario 64.  I'm setting my vote as "Indifferent".

EDIT: Meaning, I'm not gonna vote.  Don't add a third option either, I want to see a winner in this discussion.


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## HaloEffect17 (Sep 22, 2015)

I would sound quite pompous if I said Super Mario 64 wins based on pure nostalgia and didn't provide any other additional reason.  But then again, I've never played Banjo Kazooie, so I also _wouldn't dare to bash it_.  However, nostalgia aside (and really, it's hard for me to do!), if we actually sat down and considered which one laid the foundation of 3D gaming and platforming in its early polygonal stages, I would be pointing towards Super Mario 64.  It's iconic to the gaming industry and set a standard to which all other games that wanted to find success, had to match or better it.  And yet, while many argue that Banjo Kazooie did do just that and even more, one has to give credit to what started it all and gave a strong understructure for the N64 to reach critical acclaim.

That's *Super Mario 64*.


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## WiiUBricker (Sep 22, 2015)

lol @ the smackdown logo. Wrestling fan, eh?


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## grossaffe (Sep 22, 2015)

Mario 64 represents, for me, the pinnacle of 3D platforming.  However, I'll abstain from voting as I have not played Banjo Kazooie.  I should pick that one up.


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## injection18 (Sep 22, 2015)

To me Super Mario 64 is far better than Banjo.
It's really about platforming, whereas Banjo is more about exploration.

That is the feeling I got.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 22, 2015)

Mario 64 was a very nice tech demo and had some reasonable level design, or if not level design then I was impressed by the things it pulled off creatively within the limits of the engine.

Banjo I really have to properly play the 360 or xbone ports of -- perfect dark on the N64 I would not suggest people play, the XBLA port/remake though I still hold to be one of the finest multiplayer shooting games ever made and holds up to this day. I saw some footage of Xbone banjo the other day though and I could go it. It suffered a bit on the slightly unpolished/unrefined design of the day -- the collection of what 5 different things was not always the best, even if it did have some quite high notes (hah).

Now if you wound in tooie, donkey kong and conker's to this N64 platformer fight then Mario 64 is the once great but now old man that should not have been in the fight and I have no idea where the rest will go.
Relevant at this point


"pinnacle, for the N64"
Is that like the pinnacle of medicine, for the 16th century?


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## Originality (Sep 22, 2015)

I own both, and beat both multiple times, but which do I remember more? ........ Mario 64. It gets my vote.


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## shaunj66 (Sep 22, 2015)

Mario 64 is more memorable to me. It's a far more iconic game and takes the crown because of that. Banjo had far more to offer in terms of gameplay but the world of Mario 64, the simplicity of the controls and the music and how it paved the way for every other 3D platform game to follow are the clear winner for me.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 22, 2015)

Originality said:


> I own both, and beat both multiple times, but which do I remember more? ........ Mario 64. It gets my vote.



I would have gone the other way, at least in terms of characters. Mario 64... I guess there was the king bomb on the first level, the similar concrete slab guy a few levels later, the penguin and its chick, the eel and maybe that rabbit in the underground part of the hub and after that it is talking about hidden yoshi or something. None of those are especially well characterised either. For Banjo you had a whole bunch and I reckon even for the one offs in a level that I might have since forgotten I would probably be able to recall in a few seconds.
Levels... I will give you Mario for that one, though I will openly wonder if it was because they were so oft revisited for the new stars.


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## UltraHurricane (Sep 22, 2015)

if i had to choose i kinda prefer Mario 64 only in that it's a lot tighter and didn't relay so much on the tedious collect-a-thon backtracking that both Banjo and DK64 where REALLY notorious for

and idk but there's something about Banjo's style that i just couldn't get into, Mario 64 was just more charming and subtle at atmosphere and music that resonated with me better nostalgically then the goofy saturday morning cartoon aesthetic of Banjo


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## LittleFlame (Sep 22, 2015)

Flame war incoming
3,2,1


Spoiler



they're both not even that good


plz don't kill me
i lied i actually like Super mario 64 i just really dislike banjo <3


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## Deleted User (Sep 22, 2015)

I can personally play Banjo Kazooie a lot more than I can Mario 64, the characters don't feel generic and empty, the worlds are a lot prettier and unique, and the collecting actually feels worth while and enjoyable over Mario 64 which felt like a chore with little to no payout. Like other people have said above, Banjo Kazooie just took what Mario 64 did good and built upon it.


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## Prans (Sep 22, 2015)

Mario 64... coz... Mario?

Really though, Mario for me because he's an icon, recognizable generations over. And the huge transition from 2D to 3D is so astonishing and genre-defining that it deserves the win.. Every other games of this genre are mostly adapting and modifying the mechanics.


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## TecXero (Sep 22, 2015)

I don't think Super Mario 64 holds up that well, but it was great for its time. I never really liked Banjo nor any Rare games, besides Battletoads. So I'll have to go with Super Mario 64.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 22, 2015)

LittleFlame said:


> Flame war incoming
> 3,2,1
> [nospoiler] they're both not even that good[/nospoiler]



Of course; they are both N64 games. Compare them by the merits of what we have today, which I would argue you have to do if you are going to consider them, and even though we are rather lacking in this style of game this last 5 years or so the N64 hardware will drag them right down and probably kneecap them a bit further on the design front as the devs had to design to it. Ports, assuming they manage good controls (No, SM64DS; even the three pronged monstrosity did it better.), still suffer a bit from this.

*awaits this becoming another of those enjoyable "The N64 was not a failure and was, in fact, amazing for its time and to this day" threads*

Edit. Just so I do not have to search for it later if such a thing comes to pass I will link this video

Such promise, such disappointment.

Edit 2. The same show did a follow up later as things looked less shiny


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## Issac (Sep 22, 2015)

This is a hard one for me, just like the OT say: Super Mario 64 set the standards. Bajo-Kazooie took it and made it better.

In my humble opinion though, Banjo-Kazooie wins. While Super Mario 64 may have been more important, Banjo-Kazooie was a better game (still in my opinion).

The humor was there, there were more stuff to collect and explore. I remember reading rumors online that Luigi could be found if you did something special in Super Mario 64, and I tried time and time again and had fun doing it. In Banjo-Kazooie, you were rewarded for exploring more, without reading internet rumors.
Super Mario 64 had amazing music, and it's still very nostalgic to me. Banjo-Kazooie had a more intelligent music design. Especially the seamless transition of style and instruments in the same song when visiting different areas of Grunthildas lair. That's what I call polished!

EDIT:
Also, looking in hindight, comparing to the gaming world of today: Banjo was a more unique experience. Sure there were Conker, DK64, Banjo-Tooie on the N64. But when I look back over all these years... I've played a lot of Super Mario 64-ish games. I haven't played a lot of Banjo-Kazooie-ish games.

EDIT2: 
This is a good explanation on the music design I mentioned:


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## Bimmel (Sep 22, 2015)

Banjo Kazooie: 

- Collect the shit (And I mean THE shit. If you are done there is nothing left in that stage) out of a place, then move on.
- Controls are a bit stiff
- Everything has eyes
- The same instruments in every level, the same theme warmed up like it's stuck in a microwave
- Cool dialogues and funny commentary

Mario: 

- Collect stars and some red coins, other things are optional
- Awesome controls, many options of how to solve something (triple jump, far jump, wall jump - it's a jump and run after all)
- Funny music, at least more appealing to me
- No real story
- Not really dialogue
- Cool level design


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## Jwiz33 (Sep 22, 2015)

I've played both, and Super Mario 64 was a little better, IMO.


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## bjaxx87 (Sep 22, 2015)

Grant Kirkhope alone is enough reason to vote for Banjo-Kazooie. Every single piece of music is stuck in my head forever and expands the experience in such a great way! Huge and colorful worlds that you really *want* to explore, British humour, lovely characters, smooth gameplay, charming collectibles (Jinjos!) - this game is just perfect. I loved Super Mario 64 and it was a true revolution, but Rare easily surpassed it.


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## The Real Jdbye (Sep 22, 2015)

Looking objectively at it, Banjo Kazooie is a much more polished and well made game. SM64 was in the infancy of 3D platformers, and you can tell that they hadn't quite figured it out yet, with annoying, slow underwater controls, certain levels that seem haphazardly put together from bits and pieces they had left over and didn't know what to do with, textures that don't fit together or make sense, and so on. The bosses (boss) were uncreative and all you had to do was to repeat the same move of spinning and throwing. Still a great game nonetheless.

Banjo Kazooie however got 3D platforming right, each level is carefully designed so that nothing seems out of place or haphazard and everything fits the theme, textures are designed to fit together more seamlessly (as much as the N64 will allow), they still hadn't quite figured out underwater controls, but didn't have many long underwater sections so it was less of a problem there. There was more variety in the levels, and in the ways you had to get collectibles. Bosses were more creative than Super Mario 64 (though this can be a bit subjective.) Although both games only really had one boss that was recurring, I thought the quiz in Banjo Kazooie was creative and you never really got to fight Grunty head-on until the end, making the final battle that much more interesting. The wide range of moves you could obtain gave a lot more variety to the gameplay as well.

The rest is mostly down to personal preference. I loved having 100 notes to collect on each level as it encouraged me to explore the entire level and find things on my own, rather than Super Mario 64 where it gives you an often easy hint, making it obvious where you are supposed to go, plus the levels are much smaller so there is not much to explore in the first place. It gave me something to do while looking for that next Jiggy, but I know some people dislike having that many collectibles. The music was so atmospheric and fit the levels perfectly, Grant Kirkhope is a god among video game composers. And I loved the little minigames that you had to do for certain Jiggies.


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## Maximilious (Sep 22, 2015)

I loved both of these games growing up. Banjo was definitely "better" than SM64 in terms of character skill-set, polish, level design, etc., but thinking back, I played SM64 more. Between SM64 and OoT, I mastered both of them until I could beat them 100% in just a few hours. Banjo I think I beat 100%, but it was also more challenging as a kid so I didn't play it anymore once I beat it.

I think Mario wins this one for me.


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## driverdis (Sep 22, 2015)

I beat Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie multiple times where as SM64, I beat once.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 22, 2015)

Yeah the sound track discussion got me curious so I decided to spend a morning listening to games soundtracks, something I rarely do and by and large I do not have game songs in any kind of rotation or in my personal collection.

Mario 64.
Turns out that despite my last proper playthrough (I am not counting my spell with the DS game and the closest I have come to a let's play or something is watching a glitch speedrun) being over a decade ago I can still remember them.
+1 to the imaginary points that I am not giving for introducing me to the concept of the Shepard Tone though.

Banjo Kazooie and Tooie.
First I never realised the guy went on to do the Kingdoms of Amalur sound track (playing as I type this).
To my seriously untrained ear a lot of these would appear to be similar to various folk songs/popular songs, nowhere near the same level as Doom ( http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_music ) and definitely well into remix/could almost be confused for just using same time and rhyme scheme. They are perhaps not quite as catchy as Mario 64 but if I have to listen to something several times over as I play a level then this would have to be it.
On instruments it does seem like someone left their keyboard set to calypso and/or trumpet for a few too many of those songs, especially as most of those songs play during the first bunch of levels one after the other. The other, more non traditional, samples I can not say were used to anything other than spectacular effect though.

Mario Sunshine.
Some killer, probably about 90% filler though, especially if remixed/homages to the underground theme of NES Mario is not your thing. I never realised that before now and now I am going to have to wonder if it contributed to the dislike of Sunshine that some exhibit. Unlike Mario 64 it was only a few themes that I still remembered and I played Sunshine. The high notes (hah, or not as some of those were a bit clipped on the one I heard) of Sunshine did better than 64 for me though.


Then I listened to some 16 bit Sonic music. Still liked it more. Various Streets of Rage songs came on after that... what were we talking about?


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## kehkou (Sep 22, 2015)

Thats a pretty one-sided fight. It's like pitting the Rock against Betty White.

Having said, BK and BT were fun as hell, and was Rare, the greatest developers ever to exist, back when that meant something. But i dont think it has anything on Mario. Mario 64 vs Goldeneye, now that's a different story. Both set the standard in their respective genera.


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## mightymuffy (Sep 22, 2015)

Despite them both being two of the greatest 3D platformers ever made, this one isn't even close for me: Super Mario 64 wins it hands down... much more freedom: in Banjo everything you need to complete a world is force-fed to you right there, and technically you only need to enter once (and play for one hell of a long sesh) and you're done, barring more collect-a-thon stuff, Mario 64 on the other hand let's you go back to the level after hitting certain switch palaces and lets you play the same thing in an entirely different way: metal mario underwater, wings on the levels.... Let's not even get into the brilliance that is Tiny-Huge World... And I'm just scraping the surface! 
Banjo = Great game
but,
Mario 64 = Legendary!


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## BadJuju (Sep 22, 2015)

What is this blasphemy? 49 - 37


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## RustInPeace (Sep 22, 2015)

I'll have to go with Banjo & Kazooie, because I never played Super Mario 64. B&K was the first long game I played. Other games I played at the time were Pokemon Stadium, Mario Kart, games with short term goals and such, no long adventures. Banjo & Kazooie stood tall in that regard, and as a kid the images were so amazing. Even as an adult, the graphics still look so great. Every time I realize that Banjo & Kazooie is no longer a Nintendo product, Rare being bought by Microsoft, I just feel bad. It's on Rare Replay, right? That collection is the sole reason I want an Xbox One, but I only wish that B&K made it to Wii U. Rare was Nintendo's biggest publisher, or at least produced some awesome games. It just makes me incredulous that Microsoft owns Rare now. And Banjo & Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts. God, more advanced graphics, but it just looks awful to me, that's not the Banjo and Kazooie I adored. I never played it, I don't want to.

If I played Super Mario 64, I bet I'll love it, maybe more than Banjo & Kazooie, but for now, I'm going with the game I know. Unfortunately, I don't remember when, where I finished the game, it's been such a long time. If I even did, if so, probably via emulation. Yeah, good times on the N64.


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## Steena (Sep 22, 2015)

While banjo depends on the novelty of the collectibles more, and may provide a superior first playthrough, SM64's momentum based character control remains the absolute deepest to this day, as far as 3d goes. It holds some of the best speedruns and new tricks come about all the time, because much is left to player control and speed building. If you try playing B&K several times or try to speedrun it, you'll soon realize the game gets very boring and is extremely limiting. The "expiration date" on the gameplay comes up much sooner.

It also required greater effort to come up with SM64 than it did B&K due to the different timeframe of development since the former pretty much invented the genre, and I like to give credit for those accomplishments, as it makes the pricetag more or less justified. And regardless of B&K being a "more polished derivative experience" overall, it still has a very dumbed down level of control compared to the game it got inspired from. To me personally that's the most important aspect of a platformer, to the point where I can ignore almost anything else. I like to control that pace and master the engine.

So I'll go with SM64. Love both though.


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## HaloEffect17 (Sep 22, 2015)

Prans said:


> Mario 64... coz... Mario?
> 
> Really though, Mario for me because he's an icon, recognizable generations over. And the huge transition from 2D to 3D is so astonishing and genre-defining that it deserves the win.. Every other games of this genre are mostly adapting and modifying the mechanics.


Yeah, I can't believe no one mentioned this point until now.  The transition from 2D Mario to 3D Mario.  It's akin to how ground-breaking Metroid Prime was as a successor to Super Metroid.


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## Rob Blou (Sep 22, 2015)

SM64 hands down for me .. it was my 1st 3d platformer and it was mindblowing. Banjo was pretty good but there's nothing like your 1st love


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## TecXero (Sep 22, 2015)

I decided to fire both of them up again, just to give myself a bit of a refresher. I stand by my decision. Super Mario 64, while looking like crap, still feels tight. While Banjo-Kazooie feels clunky and slow. Rare games have always been a bit clunky to me. Even though I loved Battletoads, I wouldn't say it holds up well.

Maybe Banjo is better in other areas, but gameplay is always the most important to me.


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## VashTS (Sep 22, 2015)

super mario 64 but only by a small margin. 

banjo was amazing - so much so that i rented it and HAD to buy it when i was a kid with my birthday money. super mario 64 is really just amazing though and i can play through that any time and have fun. banjo on the other hand is a bit more arduous. it feels cumbersome to play it. i can't play banjo without some assistance from a guide.


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## Sakitoshi (Sep 22, 2015)

Banjo-Kazooie is the best N64 game in existance, enough said.
The second best is Banjo-Tooie.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 22, 2015)

I keep seeing words like pioneering and like many times I will have to look to the PC, granted it was 1997 before 3dfx released the voodoo glide and it was over for the consoles as the true driving force here (the interests of polite discussion force me to skim the over S3 ViRGE). Also this is not to say SM64 did not justifiably have a huge impact; earlier I linked the 1995 gamesmaster, somewhat younger me was late for dinner that night for "good" reason.

However I can not ignore 1994's Little Big Adventure


Sure it was still isometric rather than third person but even though there was plenty of isometric before then I still can not help but recognise a few things. Whether it influenced Nintendo I do not know (it made it to the PC-98), LBA might not be much remembered outside of a few today (which is a pity as it a great little game that holds up pretty well, perhaps not as well as something like Oddworld but well enough and has definitely aged better than the N64 offerings that have not been remade/ported out).


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## tbb043 (Sep 22, 2015)

Groundbreaking game that didn't have all the kinks worked out vs overrated Rare collectathon...

I'm going with the chubby Italian.


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## grossaffe (Sep 22, 2015)

FAST6191 said:


> I keep seeing words like pioneering and like many times I will have to look to the PC, granted it was 1997 before 3dfx released the voodoo glide and it was over for the consoles as the true driving force here (the interests of polite discussion force me to skim the over S3 ViRGE). Also this is not to say SM64 did not justifiably have a huge impact; earlier I linked the 1995 gamesmaster, somewhat younger me was late for dinner that night for "good" reason.
> 
> However I can not ignore 1994's Little Big Adventure
> 
> ...



That game looks to have absolutely nothing in common with the games being compared here.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 22, 2015)

The first level was probably not the best example to link up, and in some ways I might be more remembering the sequel, and the jumping puzzles often end up closer to traditional isometric style stop, turn, virtual box climbing/might as well be qbert than not, and there is a lack of specialist wall jump type things (not that such things are an amazing leap as it was done so much in 2d). However people speak of momentum based controls, platforming and such in a 3d space and I flash back to that quite easily.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Sep 22, 2015)

Banjo Kazooie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shitty Mario ;O;

Super Mario 64 was an ok step into the 3D platformer world, but Banjo Kazooie took everything that made Mario 64 ok, and did it infinitely better. As a whole, it's simply the better game when you take the actual gameplay and story and how it feels into account. The only thing Super Mario 64 did better...was being a Mario game. I can't think of too many 3D platformers on the N64 better than Banjo Kazooie, besides maybe Conker's Bad Fur Day or Banjo Tooie.


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## gokuguy (Sep 22, 2015)

I love how Mario 64 is winning in the voting because in Nintendo World, Mario = John Cena.

I absolutely love Mario 64 despite its bad cameras and various other issues, but Banjo was just a better game overall. I like Mario 64 more than Banjo Kazooie, but Banjo Kazooie is a much better built game.


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## Deleted User (Sep 23, 2015)

I prefer Banjo Kazooie. Mario 64 was the first N64 game I ever played and I had no idea what to do. I spent hours wandering around the castle grounds clueless. At that time I couldn't read so the manual was no good.

Because of that I've always attached a mysterious sense of awkwardness to Mario 64. Its still a great game, but I never quite got over that strange and slightly uncomfortable feeling.

By the time I played Banjo Kazooie I had a few years of gaming experience behind me so I knew what I was doing. Oh, and I had also learned how to read.

Judging the games in terms of their design rather than my personal experience Banjo Kazooie wins again. Funny dialogue, more interesting level designs and better graphics and audio. It took everything that Mario 64 did right and built on it.


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## HaloEffect17 (Sep 23, 2015)

leafeon34 said:


> Because of that I've always attached a mysterious sense of awkwardness to Mario 64. Its still a great game, but I never quite got over that strange and slightly uncomfortable feeling.


But isn't that the point of Super Mario 64?  That the limits are boundless and that the sheer sense of pure exploration and discovery that comes seldom with a platformer back in the day.


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## EMP Knightmare (Sep 23, 2015)

I picked Banjo, why because RARE that's why


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## DS1 (Sep 23, 2015)

Mario 64, because the Banjo manual smelled strange, end of story.

In all seriousness though, while Banjo had elements ranging from interesting (move upgrades) to amazing (climbing the overworld, reminiscent of the SNES DKC games), Mario 64 is just pure fun through and through. While Mario 64 had its share of obnoxious levels, nearly every Banjo level was annoying to me. While Mario's levels felt free, I always felt 'stuck' in an annoying or ugly Banjo level, struggling to complete tasks just so I could unlock another boring stage. The Mario stages begged to be explored, I just wanted to jump/fly around and cover every corner of a level before I even bothered nabbing stars. Collecting stuff in Banjo felt like a chore, Mario's tasks always felt like an extension of all the skills I'd gained while exploring.

Or maybe it was childhood trauma from the smell of that manual. Like, I've played Mario 64 several times in the past decade, but I didn't really touch Banjo after the first year I had it (I STILL have it, but in the case I break out my 64, I usually play Goemon, hahaha).


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## orcid (Sep 23, 2015)

Mario 64 was such a revolution and mind blowing for every gamer who played it at release. This 3D platforming, the 'open world' and the polished gameplay was just unbelieveable. I already owned a PSX at this time and was used to 3D gaming, but the first tries of 3D platformers were very poor compared to the old 2D platformers. Mario 64 was breathtaking and really proved 'this 3D thing' is not only about graphics or good for other genres like racing. Published and developed at the same time Banjo would maybe get my vote, but two years later there is no big surprise that they improved on Mario 64 (a little bit). Looking at the difference of quality between titles released at console launch and later in the lifespans of other consoles Mario 64 seems to be even more outstanding compared to Banjo.


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## Ericzander (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm not going to read replies because I don't want to be influenced. 

Banjo Kazooie master race!


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## DarkCoffe64 (Sep 23, 2015)

Haven't played much of Banjo, so since I'm more familiar with Mario 64...
Heh, give me vote to Mario.

About an argument? Ehhh...
You could play as Luigi in the remake?


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## Reecey (Sep 23, 2015)

I cant see how you can compare SM64 to BK. SM64 all the way this game has had so much reply value and its been hacked and god knows what done to it and people still talk about wanting a SM64 remake today!


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## FAST6191 (Sep 23, 2015)

Reecey said:


> I cant see how you can compare SM64 to BK. SM64 all the way this game has had so much reply value and its been hacked and god knows what done to it and people still talk about wanting a SM64 remake today!



Replay value will be down to the person playing it. I do not think it is a stretch to call Banjo replayable though.

Hacked.
https://gbatemp.net/threads/banjos-backpack-v1-0-1-banjo-kazooie-n64-level-editor.357846/
Rather nice level editor there.

Remake
The N64 Banjo games got rather nice remakes on the 360, and have since seen inclusion in that Rare collection.


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## Reecey (Sep 23, 2015)

FAST6191 said:


> Replay value will be down to the person playing it. I do not think it is a stretch to call Banjo replayable though.
> 
> Hacked.
> https://gbatemp.net/threads/banjos-backpack-v1-0-1-banjo-kazooie-n64-level-editor.357846/
> ...


Agreed but we're talking about the mighty mighty Super Mario 64 here from the N64, need I say more!  There can't be any judgement in my opinion on this, its a closed case.


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## The Real Jdbye (Sep 23, 2015)

Reecey said:


> Agreed but we're talking about the mighty mighty Super Mario 64 here from the N64, need I say more!  There can't be any judgement in my opinion on this, its a closed case.


Wrong, we're talking about the almighty Rare and their masterpiece Banjo Kazooie


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## Reecey (Sep 23, 2015)

The Real Jdbye said:


> Wrong, we're talking about the almighty Rare and their masterpiece Banjo Kazooie


Sorry I have to disagree on this with you! Actually the reason why I feel quite strong about this "battle" as well as being a bit emotionally attached to me is because Super Mario 64 is my favorite game of all time and has fantastic memory's of my childhood days so it means quite a lot to me this thread to win!. As far as I go on this matter Super Mario 64 on the N64 was and I stress, is still the best game ever made in my opinion and always will be in my heart so it holds that title and the game should win no questions asked, hands down!!!.


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## Blaze163 (Sep 23, 2015)

While I can certainly appreciate Banjo Kazooie as a truly incredible game, it'll never have that 'wow' factor of SM64. Mario 64 basically changted the gaming world. While it's certainly been improved upon since, I personally feel like I have to give props to the initial leap forward.  It's not really a fair contest though. Mario had the ability to be viewed as such a huge upgrade over its previous iterations and wow the long-term fans, whereas with Banjo Kazooie being a new IP it didn't have that established fanbase with minds to blow.


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## Hyperstar96 (Sep 23, 2015)

They're both great games, but I'm going with Mario 64.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 23, 2015)

Blaze163 said:


> whereas with Banjo Kazooie being a new IP it didn't have that established fanbase with minds to blow.



Because being Rare in 1998 was an easy act to follow? Granted it is probably not as bad as being Rare in 2002 would have been but still.


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## Philip3ds (Sep 23, 2015)

Super Mario 64 kills Banjo Kazooie. The End!


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## Blaze163 (Sep 23, 2015)

FAST6191 said:


> Because being Rare in 1998 was an easy act to follow? Granted it is probably not as bad as being Rare in 2002 would have been but still.



Don't get me wrong, Rare were a dominating force back then. Goldeneye alone pretty much owned all multiplayer outside of Smash Bros and Mario Kart, made modern gaming what it is today, and Rare had a tidal wave of great games. But Mario was the face of video games, and arguably still is today. He was a league above everyone, and to see him revolutionize gaming like that was mind-blowing on such an entirely different level. A lot of people knew that Rare were incredible and they were no doubt blown away by Banjo Kazooie, but EVERYBODY will always know who Mario is. They're both great games in their own right but I just feel the wider impact of Mario 64 gives it a slight edge.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 23, 2015)

I would disagree with your assessment of Goldeneye, if only because Quake had dropped the year before, and I reckon that has a far bigger legacy in terms of games as a whole. Goldeneye did well for a console game, even if I reckon Perfect Dark ultimately made it look like a beta, but this is probably not the thread for that one (again).

All that said I have really never been one for "legacy" and much prefer to ask whether it holds up today. I have similar feelings about Lord of the Rings -- the book was amazing for the time and still not bad today but the decades that followed brought so much more to the table, ultimately left me somewhat underwhelmed by the films.


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## Deboog (Sep 23, 2015)

Nope. I can't do it. I refuse to vote.


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## Walker D (Sep 24, 2015)

Mario 64 for me mainly cause I like to play the game more. The controls are super tight, and as so, it's a really good "3d platformer". And on that point, Mario 64 beats Banjo for sure (imo).


Also, there's no Banjo without Mario 64. The Rare devs have said before that after seeing Mario 64 they went back to the drawing board completely. Banjo was a totally different game before that (Project Dream).


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## kehkou (Sep 24, 2015)

Did Rare use custom microcode for either BK and/or BT?


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## Sakitoshi (Sep 24, 2015)

kehkou said:


> Did Rare use custom microcode for either BK and/or BT?


For Tooie I'm completely sure they did. the environments and textures where way too large for the standard microcode, and let's not forget it didn't even need the expansion pak.
Kazooie looks excellent but I'm note sure but from what I read Rare disassembled Nintendo's microcode to create their own and to Nintendo surprise the results where stunning.


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## kehkou (Sep 25, 2015)

Sakitoshi said:


> For Tooie I'm completely sure they did. the environments and textures where way too large for the standard microcode, and let's not forget it didn't even need the expansion pak.
> Kazooie looks excellent but I'm note sure but from what I read Rare disassembled Nintendo's microcode to create their own and to Nintendo surprise the results where stunning.


So they picked apart the N's microcode to guide them to creating their own, or did they actually use parts of Nintendo's code in their microcode? I can't imagine Nintendo letting them unless it was completely new code.


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## Sakitoshi (Sep 25, 2015)

kehkou said:


> So they picked apart the N's microcode to guide them to creating their own, or did they actually use parts of Nintendo's code in their microcode? I can't imagine Nintendo letting them unless it was completely new code.


Well, that's what I read at neogaf.
But makes sense since Rare was a second party at that time, they probably constructed their microcode from Nintendo's and then showed the results and Nintendo gave them green light. or maybe they just analyzed what they found with their disassembling job and created a microcode from scratch, who knows.


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## ShadowOne333 (Sep 25, 2015)

Hell yeah!
Take that you f*cking bear! 
Grab that Kazooie and shove it up your *ss! xD

SM64 FTW!


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## pas7680 (Sep 26, 2015)

SM64 for me, it took the genre we all knew and loved and ripped up the rule book and blew us all away. i still fondly remember the first shoshinkai footage of it running and just being gob-smacked - the day i started saving up for one.


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## chavosaur (Sep 28, 2015)

After Banjo came swinging out the gate, it looks like Mario ultimately takes the belt in this first round of GBATemp fight club! 






Time to move on to our second round, which will be posted shortly~


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