# Gary Bowser has been sentenced to 3+ years in prison



## aos10 (Feb 10, 2022)

so, he paid $4.5 million and still jailed?


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## Donnie-Burger (Feb 10, 2022)

relauby said:


> View attachment 297619​After being indicted in 2020, Gary Bowser's trial is finally over, and he has been sentenced to 3+ years in prison. Bowser was facing eleven felony charges as the public face of Team Xexuter, estimated by the U.S. government to have cost the videogame industry between $65 million and $150 million by facilitating piracy. Bowser pled guilty to charges of trafficking in circumvention devices and conspiracy to circumvent technological measures in November, agreeing to pay $4.5 million in fines, but was also ordered to pay another $10 million to Nintendo in a civil case.
> 
> "This is not a victimless crime. The leaders of this multimillion-dollar scheme are responsible for diverting money from creative professionals who have worked hard to provide unique products and experiences,” said Special Agent in Charge (SAC) Robert Hammer. Another Special Agent in Charge, Donald M. Voiret, is quoted saying "he also wasted the efforts of legitimate companies as they attempted to build protections for their products.”
> 
> ...


I hope hes out before the the Switch PRO model comes out so TX can hack it :]


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## Donnie-Burger (Feb 10, 2022)

aos10 said:


> so, he paid $4.5 million and still jailed?


Yeah fines and jail / prison time go hand in hand in US.  Iv'e known people who have done worse and got house arrest.


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## aos10 (Feb 10, 2022)

Donnie-Burger said:


> Yeah fines and jail / prison time go hand in hand in US.  Iv'e known people who have done worse and got house arrest.


what the hell? this is really stupid.
american system is bad, even more then my own country (well, not really, in my country sysria they abduct kids and women to make big ransoms).


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## diggeloid (Feb 10, 2022)

> he also wasted the efforts of legitimate companies as they attempted to build protections for their products


What a weird way to frame that. Everyone knows DRM doesn't work, so the only ones wasting their efforts are the companies implementing it. That's like saying "DRM works to stop piracy, as long as pirates don't circumvent it!" Like no shit.

Does anyone know of any studies that show DRM actually leads to reduced piracy in any meaningful way? I'd imagine that if you were to ask a company like Denuvo, they'd give you some massaged numbers to sell you on their product.


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## Marc_LFD (Feb 10, 2022)

I know it's illegal and a crime as per copyright goes, but jail time? I feel bad for him.

Putting him in the same space as rapists, killers, pedos... That's probably gonna fuck him up.


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## ShadowOne333 (Feb 10, 2022)

As always, just because the top shits called the shots, the worst kind of sentences and punishment are served.
Damn that country's piece of shit legal system is skewed af to serve the fuckers above.


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## KingBlank (Feb 10, 2022)

This sucks, I'd like to see them prove that he has cost the industry even $20 million.


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## AmandaRose (Feb 10, 2022)

So Long, Gary Bowser

(Sorry couldn't resist modifying the famous misheard quote from Mario 64.


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## Larsenv (Feb 10, 2022)

Hi @garyopa, how are you doing in federal custody?


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## Chary (Feb 10, 2022)

Dang. The precedent has been set. Don't mess with Nintendo.


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## tpax (Feb 10, 2022)

America, where corporate wellbeing is more important than the wellbeing of children, considering child abusers get off the hook way easier. 

Can't the Chinese or the Russians just nuke that country?


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## djpannda (Feb 10, 2022)

Ok… do we NOW  get the sxos update!


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## Donnie-Burger (Feb 10, 2022)

djpannda said:


> Ok… do we NOW  get the sxos update!


in 3+ years.  Whos down to smuggle a switch in for for good ol Gary?


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## chrisrlink (Feb 10, 2022)

tpax said:


> America, where corporate wellbeing is more important than the wellbeing of children, considering child abusers get off the hook way easier.
> 
> Can't the Chinese or the Russians just nuke that country?


you know what? i don't care if i'm on no watch list for saying this (probably already am cause of my ex and the fact i USED to be Muslim because of her) but sometimes when a country needs to burn they need to burn in this case because of the corruption of the USA


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## Donnie-Burger (Feb 10, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> you know what? i don't care if i'm on no watch list for saying this (probably already am cause of my ex and the fact i USED to be Muslim because of her) but sometimes when a country needs to burn they need to burn in this case because of the corruption of the USA


Considering his fines and sentence I would guess / assume he didn't talk.  Max & Chen must be happy right now.  Chen prolly the reason the HWFLY chips exist.  Multi Billion dollar companies can do thangs.


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## CeeDee (Feb 10, 2022)

surprised nintendo didn't lobby for a death sentence


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## tpax (Feb 10, 2022)

CeeDee said:


> surprised nintendo didn't lobby for a death sentence


They probably tried.


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## chrisrlink (Feb 10, 2022)

CeeDee said:


> surprised nintendo didn't lobby for a death sentence


i doubt they could pull that off without raising hell with activist and human rights groups to put it in perspective it would be like issuing a death sentence for shoplifters or "the five finger discount" maybe is countries like the UAE, iraq etc but not here


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## andyhappypants (Feb 10, 2022)

Far too heavy handed. Shame really considering nobody died!

Cheers Gary 

Keep your back to the wall.


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## CeeDee (Feb 10, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> i doubt they could pull that off without raising hell with activist and human rights groups to put it in perspective it would be like issuing a death sentence for shoplifters or "the five finger discount" maybe is countries like the UAE, iraq etc but not here


taking my comment seriously means i am now lobbying for your death sentence


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## chrisrlink (Feb 10, 2022)

Donnie-Burger said:


> Considering his fines and sentence I would guess / assume he didn't talk.  Max & Chen must be happy right now.  Chen prolly the reason the HWFLY chips exist.  Multi Billion dollar companies can do thangs.


the only thing i'd say to investigators is the good ol **** you


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## such (Feb 10, 2022)

Donnie-Burger said:


> in 3+ years.  Whos down to smuggle a switch in for for good ol Gary?


Better idea: petition Nintendo to have Doug Bowser personally deliver a Switch to him and to kick Gary in the nuts while he's there.


chrisrlink said:


> i doubt they could pull that off without raising hell with activist and human rights groups to put it in perspective it would be like issuing a death sentence for shoplifters or "the five finger discount" maybe is countries like the UAE, iraq etc but not here


Eh, give it a few years. Next generation maybe.


Donnie-Burger said:


> Yeah fines and jail / prison time go hand in hand in US.  Iv'e known people who have done worse and got house arrest.


Prison sure pays well in the US of A.


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## XDel (Feb 10, 2022)

First off, he should be let go because of his last name alone.  

Secondly, this is like watching a 12th grade football player kick a 4th grader around the school grounds. Big corp equals bullying.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 10, 2022)

But murderers and kidnappers and other abusive people, oh no, they have to get lesser sentences

Fuck the American justice system.


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## lokomelo (Feb 11, 2022)

If what I have been told about US penal system is true, he will be forced to work for free or almost free during this time, and all for doing something that in the end was no harm to anyone.

I don't agree with this sentence. I agree with the fine, but jail time? Makes no sense.


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## Spider_Man (Feb 11, 2022)

Nintendo making more money from courts and they still cant be arsed to put some money down and make something new.

Problem is, they claim Gary caused millions in damages to hard working folks making games, but will any of this money go to them?

That there is probably robbery, who the fuck pockets the money.


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## Axido (Feb 11, 2022)

Lesson learned? As soon as money is involved, make sure you can't get sued in the US.


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## godreborn (Feb 11, 2022)

lokomelo said:


> If what I have been told about US penal system is true, he will be forced to work for free or almost free during this time, and all for doing something that in the end was no harm to anyone.
> 
> I don't agree with this sentence. I agree with the fine, but jail time? Makes no sense.


I agree.  I don't really believe in piracy, but I think the prison time is overkill.


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## Kilim (Feb 11, 2022)

what a joke the legal system is, catered towards corporations with billions of dollars over the individual

every time this shit happens, whether it be Nintendo issuing a C&D for a rom hack (or something trivial) or them suing someone you should always remember, Nintendo is not your friend and their family friendly demeanor is simply a way for them to get more money

remember this the next time you see some idiot trying to act all 'holier-than-thou' over you pirating a Nintendo game, remember this when you see your favorite Nintendo franchise get a new game and you think you might want to support them/the franchise

pirate everything they touch, fuck 'em


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## zebrone (Feb 11, 2022)

Donnie-Burger said:


> I hope hes out before the the Switch PRO model comes out so TX can hack it :]


Me too.
Pray for it


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## ChaosEternal (Feb 11, 2022)

Deserved.


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## DKB (Feb 11, 2022)

Rough.


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## Cylent1 (Feb 11, 2022)

Donnie-Burger said:


> in 3+ years.  Whos down to smuggle a switch in for for good ol Gary?


In their prison wallet?   DAMN!!!!


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## spotanjo3 (Feb 11, 2022)

aos10 said:


> so, he paid $4.5 million and still jailed?


 Yeah..Greedy perhaps ?


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## pustal (Feb 11, 2022)

relauby said:


> Team Xexuter, estimated by the U.S. government to have cost the videogame industry between $65 million and $150 million by facilitating piracy.​





Most people who pirate do it because they can't afford to pay the cost. People actually tend to buy the games when they start to be able to afford them. So I highly doubt these value. Firstly because I don't see how they'd estimate how many people pirated how many games. And then because most of those people wouldn't have actually bought the game even if they couldn't pirate it.

These values are currently tamer than they used to be but they are likey still completly taken out of someone's @$$.


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## MadMakuFuuma (Feb 11, 2022)

spotanjo3 said:


> Yeah..Greedy perhaps ?
> 
> 
> remember this the next time you see some idiot trying to act all 'holier-than-thou' over you pirating a Nintendo game, remember this when you see your favorite Nintendo franchise get a new game and you think you might want to support them/the franchise
> ...


funny thing is: remember back in day, when we did just that: buyed a Wii, modded (first with chips, then came software jail break etc) and played games for free? but they (big N) gained at least the money of the wii punchase... but now, we have switch (console of the generation, by Nintendo standards) and some games run better ON EMULATORS than the original Hardware... so now, we don't even need the hardware (no, really, switch emulators run well even on potatoes) XD


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## The Catboy (Feb 11, 2022)

CeeDee said:


> surprised nintendo didn't lobby for a death sentence


Honestly, same. Guess throwing him in jail is the closest they could get to the public execution that they would have wanted


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## Kilim (Feb 11, 2022)

ChaosEternal said:


> Deserved.


cringe sheeple


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## DudderButter (Feb 11, 2022)

Was this supposed to scare me from pirating Nintendo games? Because news like this makes me more inclined to continue doing it.

Just imagine the conversations with the inmates:

"Yeah...I committed double homicide '07...you?"
"Oh, you know, I just sold a service that allowed my customers to pirate Nintendo games!"
"...*shudders*"


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## Deleted member 532471 (Feb 11, 2022)

Why are they on a crusade against this guy??


At this point I'm afraid I'll log in one day to see he was crucified and stoned


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## zoogie (Feb 11, 2022)

Given the length of this sentence, it's interesting to reflect on another one of Ninty's recent legal victims:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/ryan-he...intendo-and-possessing-illegal-images.578135/ ("illegal images" is putting it lightly, lol)

Technically not related to Nintendo, but it shows you how easy Ryanrocks got off:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/former-...ected-pedophile-gets-20-year-sentence.468679/

Bonus irony


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## Emperor_Norton (Feb 11, 2022)

That's the nature of cybercrime laws when combined with business law. The former were made crazy strict on purpose, and the latter is powered by how much money you can blow on winning it.

I do have to wonder if he really caused 65 to 150 million dollars worth of losses, all of this sounds a bit much if I'm honest. I don't know the full extent of what Xecuter did though, perhaps I should read up on it more even though the legal stuff is pretty dry.

This guy's already been fined 14.5 million dollars, the 3 years isn't all that much more- it's really just a customary slap on the hand for precedent purposes by comparison to what he could've got. Really, all I can say is that he knew what he was going up against and still did it anyways- one of the largest media franchises isn't going to pull their punches, and you should probably have the common sense to know you're not going to win the legal battle against them.

Bowser jailed for Mario crimes, I guess


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## TheGodMauro (Feb 11, 2022)

And the precedent's set in stone.


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## Zonark (Feb 11, 2022)

aos10 said:


> so, he paid $4.5 million and still jailed?


Yes to be honest he will probably only be in there for half the time plus he still has millions of dollars in revenue dudes set. Also probably gonna be some Netflix documentary about it because it hasn’t happened to this extent before


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## HellGhast (Feb 11, 2022)

tpax said:


> America, where corporate wellbeing is more important than the wellbeing of children, considering child abusers get off the hook way easier...



Not just corporations, but anyone who is a star or rich or famous or a politician or politically connected gets a get out of jail free; or worst case scenario gets 2 years and is sent to a Martha Stewart kind of prison which has a spa, tennis courts, swimming pool and golf course.
Crazy $h1t.

But woe unto thee if you are a normal citizen, aka peasant, 25 to life in a super-max for a misdemeanor.


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## Jayro (Feb 11, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> i doubt they could pull that off without raising hell with activist and human rights groups to put it in perspective it would be like issuing a death sentence for shoplifters or "the five finger discount" maybe is countries like the UAE, iraq etc but not here


I personally support the death sentence for shoplifters... But that's just me.


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## HellGhast (Feb 11, 2022)

If the victim were an average citizen the sentence would have been reduced to time served, 


relauby said:


> ...Bowser has been detained since October 2020 as he was not able to secure pretrial release, so, assuming he serves his full 3+ year sentence, he will have actually been detained for closer to four and a half years.​
> Source



If the victim were an average citizen the sentence would have been commuted to time served so far 1-year and 4-months, but since TX went up against a multi-billion dollar Mega-Corporation he's lucky not to get 50 to Life.


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## KennyAtom (Feb 11, 2022)

Good.

I understand selling actual chips, but when you sell software licenses to pirate games, then you deserve to get caught.


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## rusty shackleford (Feb 11, 2022)

Well Nintendo hires lobbyists to give out money to congressmen. So since these politicians are getting bribed, they want to keep Nintendo happy and jailed the guy after fining him into oblivion. 
https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/clients/summary?cycle=2021&id=D000042273


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## Asia81 (Feb 11, 2022)

> creative professionals who have worked hard to provide unique products and experiences


lmao yes you tell me


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## Asia81 (Feb 11, 2022)

> government to have cost the videogame industry between $65 million and $150 million by facilitating piracy


When will they understand that pirating doesn't cost anything.
Pirated games are games we would not buy anyways, so pirated or not, you won't get money for it anyways.

Do a good game and we will sure buy it.

Simple as that.


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## Nincompoopdo (Feb 11, 2022)

Time will passed quickly for him in prison if he has a SXOS-Switch with hundreds of games installed.


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## Emperor_Norton (Feb 11, 2022)

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/p...-notorious-videogame-piracy-group-sentenced-3

Here's the official US release from the DoJ if anyone cares. Not long, but a bit dry.

Common word of mouth at the moment is that he was particularly nabbed for distribution of pirated games moreso than the actual hardware itself.


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## Viri (Feb 11, 2022)

Damn, I can understand a fine, and maybe a bit of community service, but jailing him for 3 years? That's a bit too far imo.

https://gbatemp.net/members/garyopa.175417/
Sadly his lucky 777 messages didn't help him.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 11, 2022)

Poor Nintendo must be so devastated financially, the horror!


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## wolf-snake (Feb 11, 2022)

Can't believe Jr did such a thing. So sad.


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## DarknessPlay3r (Feb 11, 2022)

Emperor_Norton said:


> https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/p...-notorious-videogame-piracy-group-sentenced-3
> 
> Here's the official US release from the DoJ if anyone cares. Not long, but a bit dry.
> 
> Common word of mouth at the moment is that he was particularly nabbed for distribution of pirated games moreso than the actual hardware itself.


Actually from everything I've read (now including this) it comes down to "he made money of theft/circumvention" the pirating games is just a byproduct.


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## YamiZee (Feb 11, 2022)

Gonna pirate more games in protest


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## petspeed (Feb 11, 2022)

This is insane. I mean off course he should be punished for his crimes but this will completely ruin his life. He will be bankrupt when he is a free man again in 3+ years with no chance to get back on his feet again.


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## Donnie-Burger (Feb 11, 2022)

petspeed said:


> This is insane. I mean off course he should be punished for his crimes but this will completely ruin his life. He will be bankrupt when he is a free man again in 3+ years with no chance to get back on his feet again.


That's how they do us in the USA.  Time for change for sure.


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## Purple_Shyguy (Feb 11, 2022)

How will he not be allowed time served as he's been in their custody for two years already? Crazy.


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## Kirby6417 (Feb 11, 2022)

Not a lot of people in this thread giving Gary much respect. He’s a human with a brain, he knew he was breaking the law and profiting off it. He knew he could get busted. Let’s respect the guy’s autonomy and not act like he’s an unwitting victim of circumstance.

It’s a two-sided conversation obviously and yes the punishment is too harsh. Anyway I think piracy was theoretically solved by gaben years and years ago when he said it was just a matter of convenience/accessibility. For the most part, I think that describes why people pirate… we’re actually totally willing to pay money for things, so just make them easy to buy/use and we’ll do it.


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## Donnie-Burger (Feb 11, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> How will he not be allowed time served as he's been in their custody for two years already? Crazy.


It is time served so he should be out in 2 years roughly.  Just in time for the Switch 2.


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## ut2k4master (Feb 11, 2022)

petspeed said:


> This is insane. I mean off course he should be punished for his crimes but this will completely ruin his life. He will be bankrupt when he is a free man again in 3+ years with no chance to get back on his feet again.


play stupid games, win stupid prizes


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## erazin (Feb 11, 2022)

Any chance we get an sxos update?


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## BeniBel (Feb 11, 2022)

I had a great run with my sxos, got it when it first released and haven't bought a single switch game on that switch ever since. Everyone I know who also gotten sxos is the same. So yes, sxos (and other hacks) did cut into Nintendo's sales, I don't think the majority of people do buy the games they like if they can get it for free. Did Nintendo lose as much as they claim though? Most likely not, piracy isn't wide spread enough for that.

Gary knew he was taking great risks, making a profit from piracy. I think it's a reasonable sentence. Don't do the crime, if you can't spend the time.


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## LoggerMan (Feb 11, 2022)

So long Gary Bowser.


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## ZeroFX (Feb 11, 2022)

RIP. F.


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## Bladexdsl (Feb 11, 2022)

don't fuck with nintAPPLE!


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## Purple_Shyguy (Feb 11, 2022)

SXOS never dies


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## Xzi (Feb 11, 2022)

Rough, but he'll probably be out in less with good behavior.  Still, a stint in prison can fuck anyone up in the head, so even if he certainly isn't a hardened criminal before going in, he might be one after he comes out.


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## zxr750j (Feb 11, 2022)

Strip him from his earnings, let him pay a fine and give him a hefty suspended sentence. 3 years is very hefty I think...


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## isoboy (Feb 11, 2022)

Somebody else will take his place. Switch 2 - let's go.


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## Taleweaver (Feb 11, 2022)

So...how's that "America, land of the free" slogan holding up now? Shouldn't we change it to "America, land of the corporate ruling class"? 


As many others, I don't see the point of both a (hefty) fine and a prison sentence. I have no idea how succesfull team xexutor was, but 4.5 million bucks sure seems like a lot.

But the prison sentence is just...dumb. Seems like he's now surrounded with people who have even LESS moral obligations toward software piracy than the average person.


...okay, that's a bit of a projection on my behalf, but I honestly can't picture drug dealers, shoplifters, thugs and other locked criminals lecturing Gary on what a monster he is for denying nintendo creative income from potential (sorry: "potential") customers.

I mean...can you picture this?


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## AceX (Feb 11, 2022)

Bowser's inside story.


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## AceX (Feb 11, 2022)

Bowser's inside story.


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## relauby (Feb 11, 2022)

Zonark said:


> Yes to be honest he will probably only be in there for half the time plus he still has millions of dollars in revenue dudes set. Also probably gonna be some Netflix documentary about it because it hasn’t happened to this extent before


According to documents provided in discovery, he only made $320,000 in the seven years he worked for Team Xecuter.


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## isoboy (Feb 11, 2022)

AceX said:


> Bowser's inside story.


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## manaconda (Feb 11, 2022)

That time he's been in jail counts towards the sentence he will be out in no time


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## germandroide (Feb 11, 2022)

Peopple who doesn´t buy oficial stuff is not a real target for the oficial platforms. 
Original platforms are targetting to peopple with as much of money as is able to use original copies.

The peopple who consumes not originals or modded contents are out of the targeted market, Microsoft is in the right way with its Xbox live beta cloud gaming. That is fine to every one. 9€/month and play if you have time to the full original and legal game catalog.

Team executer had to work with Nintendo, to cover original and black marked peopple targets


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## ChiefReginod (Feb 11, 2022)

This is the result of manchildren giving Nintendo a free pass for years of shitty decisions just because they made a few games they liked 20 years ago. Nintendo understand that they can do no wrong in the eyes of their fanbase. This is also why we can't have fan games.


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## Skelletonike (Feb 11, 2022)

People may not like it, but I don't see anything wrong with it.
3 years isn't that long and it is good for a precedent to be set.

If you willingly commit a crime, you should be ready to embrace the consequences. 
Doesn't matter if it doesn't physically hurt someone.


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## CoolMe (Feb 11, 2022)

They wanted to make an EXAMPLE out of him.. And they succeeded.


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## LoggerMan (Feb 11, 2022)

Gary should change his name if he wants to get into the hacking game when he's released from prison. Something like Waluigi or Wario.


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## Pipistrele (Feb 11, 2022)

Asia81 said:


> When will they understand that pirating doesn't cost anything.
> Pirated games are games we would not buy anyways, so pirated or not, you won't get money for it anyways.
> 
> Do a good game and we will sure buy it.
> ...


Both PSP and DS were screwed up heavily by rampant piracy during their heyday, so I wouldn't say it's as harmless for the publishers as some may want to make it sound like - if anything, the draconian anti-piracy measures we see on consoles and handhelds now were a direct response to that mess.

Besides, "_do a good game and we will sure buy it_" is a very optimistic outlook to put it lightly, and there's a lot of people who simply get very good at finding excuses to not buy stuff regardless of the games' actual quality. I mean, we already see the market of small indie games being ruined by players who abuse the hell out of Steam's 2-hour refund policy, basically yoinking money back from devs hands; yet somehow we're supposed to believe that most players will be conscientious enough to bring cash later if they liked what they stole.


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## vb_encryption_vb (Feb 11, 2022)

Marc_78065 said:


> I know it's illegal and a crime as per copyright goes, but jail time? I feel bad for him.
> 
> Putting him in the same space as rapists, killers, pedos... That's probably gonna fuck him up.



He'll be in federal prison, two entirely different systems. He'll be doing the same time Martha Stewart did. 




KingBlank said:


> This sucks, I'd like to see them prove that he has cost the industry even $20 million.



He's been around for ages, technically once a system is hacked it can play the entire library that you would typically have to buy to even play... it adds up quickly.

My personal thoughts on the situation, good, I never liked the guy and always thought he was a plague to every scene he put his paws in.


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## subcon959 (Feb 11, 2022)

Skelletonike said:


> Doesn't matter if it doesn't physically hurt someone.


You're right, those poor corporations have had it so bad for years. How dare people show sympathy for a single human being when share holders stand to lose imaginary money.


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## Deleted member 534570 (Feb 11, 2022)

.


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## Lather (Feb 11, 2022)

Once again exposed the arrogance of Nintendo and the problem of US law serving capital.
I'm not defending Gary Bowser, he should be punished.


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## Skelletonike (Feb 11, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> You're right, those poor corporations have had it so bad for years. How dare people show sympathy for a single human being when share holders stand to lose imaginary money.


Doesn't matter, a crime is a crime. 

The only crimes that are pardonable, are those made out of necessity such as stealing food or other stuff for survival.


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## Norris (Feb 11, 2022)

The system is rigged so much rappers get away with murder because there filthy rich and have good lawyers freebowser


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## Norris (Feb 11, 2022)

I'm going to start pirating more just for the heck of it I'm going to start giving out flash drives at school with pirates stuff it's so so stupid he got 3 years for this Ive been in institution before for mental health reasons for only 1 week and I hated it it was easily the worst week of my life it's disgusting that this man is getting 3years of his life taken away from him he doesn't belong in prison he should have done a couple hours of community service and that's it. #freebowsertillithurts


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## Asia81 (Feb 11, 2022)

From Jailbreak to just Jail


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## Norris (Feb 11, 2022)

Asia81 said:


> From Jailbreak to just Jail


The Ryan rocks guy a literal pedo who had thousands of images of child pornography got less to about the same time as him....


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## linuxares (Feb 11, 2022)

Isn't it obvious he got extra time because of his lastname? Mario finally got enough


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## SaulFemm (Feb 11, 2022)

I've hardly seen a thread this toxic on any forum, and all to protect a guy who legitimately broke the law.


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## Dr_Faustus (Feb 11, 2022)

Chary said:


> Dang. The precedent has been set. Don't mess with Nintendo.


On the other hand, open up the mod as a thing that can be purely open sourced and can be made/manufactured by anyone. When all the hands are in the pie at once, you cannot cuff all those wrists. Nintendo, hell no one has that kind of power. 

The best way to always defeat this kind of thing is to not make yourself the sole target, but to bring chaos from multiple directions. You can't stomp all of them out, and doing so is a fruitless endeavor, if anything it will just bring rise to a larger counter movement in its place. Sort of reminds me of the PS3 days with Sony again.


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## micp (Feb 11, 2022)

LoggerMan said:


> Gary should change his name if he wants to get into the hacking game when he's released from prison. Something like Waluigi or Wario.


Just needs to go with Barry Gowser.  Nobody would ever know.


----------



## MushGuy (Feb 11, 2022)

Cyph3r_ said:


> Had to do a double take on this. Not THE Gary Bowser, current Nintendo CEO, but Gary Bowser, Switch hacker.


I think you mean *Doug* Bowser.


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## subcon959 (Feb 11, 2022)

Skelletonike said:


> Doesn't matter, a crime is a crime.


Weird. It's almost as if it's one rule for people and another rule for the powerful. How come a crime isn't a crime when it's a corporation ruining the planet?

You're right though.. activism is dumb and people should just live with the current state of the world because everything is fair and equal.


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## Hecatia (Feb 11, 2022)

Why was this anything more than a civil case?


----------



## Norris (Feb 11, 2022)

SaulFemm said:


> I've hardly seen a thread this toxic on any forum, and all to protect a guy who legitimately broke the law.


Politics section be like


----------



## ChaosEternal (Feb 11, 2022)

Kilim said:


> cringe sheeple


Hey man, don't be hating on sheep. They're delicious and their wool makes great clothing!


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## The Catboy (Feb 11, 2022)

I wonder if Team Xecuter will end up rocking the Switch in 2025? ;O;


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## Skelletonike (Feb 11, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> Weird. It's almost as if it's one rule for people and another rule for the powerful. How come a crime isn't a crime when it's a corporation ruining the planet?
> 
> You're right though.. activism is dumb and people should just live with the current state of the world because everything is fair and equal.



What does a corporation ruining a planet have with this though? One doesn't invalidate the other.
Crime is crime. If you do something illegal you should be ready to reap the consequences of your actions, that's part of being a responsible adult.

In this case, he is at fault. He is not an innocent bystander.


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## The Catboy (Feb 11, 2022)

zupi said:


> Why are they on a crusade against this guy??
> 
> 
> At this point I'm afraid I'll log in one day to see he was crucified and stoned


Literally just trying to use him to send a message to anyone trying to replicate what he did. It's not even about his crimes anymore, it's just about dragging him around in the hopes of scaring people.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 11, 2022)

Skelletonike said:


> What does a corporation ruining a planet have with this though? One doesn't invalidate the other.
> Crime is crime. If you do something illegal you should be ready to reap the consequences of your actions, that's part of being a responsible adult.
> 
> In this case, he is at fault. He is not an innocent bystander.



Normally, they wouldn't be related but in the case of America, the laws which determine he is criminal are produced by corporations lobbying the government. The whole system is corrupt as hell, so it's all very well saying crime is crime, but there is more nuance behind why certain things are considered criminal.

I have no problem with the civic case and fine, I just don't see any sense in someone going to jail for non-violent "crimes". As plenty of people keep saying in the thread, it seems that if you're going to commit a crime in America then you're better off killing someone than causing financial harm to a corporation.


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## ACNIGHTWING3000 (Feb 11, 2022)

If they were fairer with thier pricing and reduced the prices relative to the age of the games (nintendo being the worst for keeping the original rrp for the life of the game) and if they didn't continually charge high prices for ports that people have already paid for and didn't shut down servers and devices (without making it available for people to run thier own servers) then I could understand their argument but these are part of why the hacker/modder communities exist! This is why I strongly oppose the digital only systems! As a retro collector I hate to think of whats gonna happen to some of the titles as they supersede and shut down the online stores for later systems. It makes copying and preserving all the more important!


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## chrisrlink (Feb 11, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> You're right, those poor corporations have had it so bad for years. How dare people show sympathy for a single human being when share holders stand to lose imaginary money.


mind you these corperations treat their employees like shit employ cheap communist labor (China) and pumping toxic fumes into the air? why should i give one **** about companies like shitendo?


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## Bladexdsl (Feb 11, 2022)

ChaosEternal said:


> Hey man, don't be hating on sheep. They're delicious and their wool makes great clothing!


and they line up to buy apple products by the millions


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## Arilys (Feb 11, 2022)

Pipistrele said:


> Both PSP and DS were screwed up heavily by rampant piracy during their heyday, so I wouldn't say it's as harmless for the publishers as some may want to make it sound like - if anything, the draconian anti-piracy measures we see on consoles and handhelds now were a direct response to that mess.
> 
> Besides, "_do a good game and we will sure buy it_" is a very optimistic outlook to put it lightly, and there's a lot of people who simply get very good at finding excuses to not buy stuff regardless of the games' actual quality. I mean, we already see the market of small indie games being ruined by players who abuse the hell out of Steam's 2-hour refund policy, basically yoinking money back from devs hands; yet somehow we're supposed to believe that most players will be conscientious enough to bring cash later if they liked what they stole.


Yeah, there are a lot of people that find excuses. But there are also others that do end up buying the games. I've lost count to the amount of games that I pirated on PC and older consoles that I ended up buying later on.

There are even some that I pirated and would like to have bought, but I couldn't find them on sale new. Heck, even these last few months I've been looking for physical copies of Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and its DLC (The Golden Country), but I can't find it in any stores.

"Just buy it used!"
Okay, sure, find me someone selling those games for 30€ or less, because I sure as hell ain't gonna pay a premium for used games (in the case of Torna, paying even more than its original price), especially since none of that money will be going back to the devs - just like with piracy. Really makes ya think, huh?

"Just buy digital!"
Lmao no. I only buy digital if the games have no physical version at all. Besides, I like having the boxes and carts.

"You're just making excuses to justify your pirating!"
I have a Lite and refuse to buy a way-too-overpriced chip for it, so pirating isn't even an option for me right now.


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## SeventhSon7 (Feb 11, 2022)

I'm picturing Gary's arrival in prison like _The Shawshank Redemption_. Later in the cafeteria he's asked what he's in for, and with a steely look in his eye he says, "pirating Nintendo games." Then the other prisoners have a look of terror pass over them everyone backs away leaving him alone.


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## ccfman2004 (Feb 11, 2022)

The thing is that most pirates weren't going to pay for the games anyway so those developers would have never seen any money anyway from those people. There are some people, like me, who do pay for games but want to play them without messing around with cartridges. Currently I do not have any roms of Switch games I did not purchase.  If you don't believe me, I'll upload a picture of my Switch games when I get a chance.  Most of my Switch games are digital though.


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## sley (Feb 11, 2022)

I bet Nintendo lost more money on the court costs than it ever did because of SXOS


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## chrisrlink (Feb 11, 2022)

ccfman2004 said:


> The thing is that most pirates weren't going to pay for the games anyway so those developers would have never seen any money anyway from those people. There are some people, like me, who do pay for games but want to play them without messing around with cartridges. Currently I do not have any roms of Switch games I did not purchase.  If you don't believe me, I'll upload a picture of my Switch games when I get a chance.  Most of my Switch games are digital though.


beg to differ cause i bought both PLA and SP i just like playing my games a little earlier than most,ever heard of "try before you buy?"


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## smf (Feb 11, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Literally just trying to use him to send a message to anyone trying to replicate what he did. It's not even about his crimes anymore, it's just about dragging him around in the hopes of scaring people.


That is the main reason for locking any criminal up.


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## Shadow_The_Hedgehog82 (Feb 11, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> beg to differ cause i bought both PLA and SP i just like playing my games a little earlier than most,ever heard of "try before you buy?"


Then youre not a pirate its not piracy if you own it


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## Something whatever (Feb 11, 2022)

He paid and still got time? Thats fucked


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## ccfman2004 (Feb 11, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> beg to differ cause i bought both PLA and SP i just like playing my games a little earlier than most,ever heard of "try before you buy?


I don't know what PLA or SP are.  I said MOST people who pirate won't ever buy the games. I know there are people who do buy after pirating.


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## HRudyPlayZ (Feb 11, 2022)

Really, there's no way companies lost this much from piracy. Seems like they used a RNG to calculate the cost.
A, because a digital copy of a game is free to make, it doesn't cost Nintendo anything to create one single more copy of the same game.
B, because most pirates would have not bought the game in the first place (not winning ≠ losing) or may have bought it at some point already (which counts as winning money, not staying on the same spot, since again, digital copies are free to create)
C, because the hacking scene is still pretty small compared to the full fanbase, and even with highly priced games, it wouldn't be enough to reach those numbers anyways.
D, because used games also exist, and they "cost" as much to companies as piracy.
E, because SX devices aren't exclusively used by piracy, even though that's their main focus.
F, especially in Gary's case, he didn't cost nearly as much anyways, he's just the marketing guy, it's almost like he did nothing for SX anyways.

In conclusion, that sentence is completely unrational. Even the original fine he agreed on was too much, but way closer to reality, now this is getting ridiculous. Jail time + 14 millions? Completely insane, pedophiles often only take half as much. Considering he didn't really cost much to companies, the original 4 millions were more than enough. 
One question, since i genuinely don't remember, is he even american to begin with? Otherwise he shouldn't get sentenced by the america's justice but by his country's. It would be too easy this way, like Nintendo could just sue every modder in japan since it got illegal there lmao.

I personnally would never pay that much money if i was sentenced for it. Like what are they gonna do? Make me homeless? I'll sue them for endangering myself. Give me permanent jail? Better escaping then. This just shows that the world would be a better place with no justice system at all than a completely broken system like that.

I guess i'll now consider every incoming Nintendo game as free real estate to compensate. It will be hard to reach those 100 millions cost, but i can definitely come closer to reaching it with enough motivation. I hope the next Mario Kart 8-recycling DLCs will be fun to pirate


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## Alexander1970 (Feb 11, 2022)

40 Months...

16 Months already "served"....24 Months to go....well......


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## ccfman2004 (Feb 11, 2022)

This is Nintendo making an example of someone to disway others from hacking their products.  They needed a scapegoat and Gary fit the bill.  Just like Geohot was the scapegoat for Sony.


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## Subtle Demise (Feb 11, 2022)

Modchips are similar to rooting an Android or jailbreaking an iphone. The fact that they happen to enable piracy is just a side effect of opening up the software. If circumventing the DRM has even one legitimate use, then it is legitimate and shouldn't be illegal. Banning modchips or console hacking dongles is like banning hammers because a lot of people murder other people with them. 

Back to the phone analogy: the SX dongle as I understand it is closer to rooting your Android phone. It simply re-enables a feature that's already present in the system's software. The SXOS is like BusyBox and gives you extra tools to accomplish various tasks. But yes, modchips shouldn't be illegal.


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## linuxares (Feb 11, 2022)

ccfman2004 said:


> I don't know what PLA or SP are.  I said MOST people who pirate won't ever buy the games. I know there are people who do buy after pirating.


Like me! I bought it after the leak. Since I found it a breath of fresh air. That this franchise have so deeply needed for a while.


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## ccfman2004 (Feb 11, 2022)

The thing is that circumventing anti-copy protection is illegal in the US at least. There was a popular DVD ripping software that got a cease and deceased so they removed the DVD Ripping feature and we now have ImgBurn.

Jailbreaking an iPhone is officially legal in the US as decided by the courts though.


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## linuxares (Feb 11, 2022)

Subtle Demise said:


> Modchips are similar to rooting an Android or jailbreaking an iphone. The fact that they happen to enable piracy is just a side effect of opening up the software. If circumventing the DRM has even one legitimate use, then it is legitimate and shouldn't be illegal. Banning modchips or console hacking dongles is like banning hammers because a lot of people murder other people with them.
> 
> Back to the phone analogy: the SX dongle as I understand it is closer to rooting your Android phone. It simply re-enables a feature that's already present in the system's software. The SXOS is like BusyBox and gives you extra tools to accomplish various tasks. But yes, modchips shouldn't be illegal.


No, just no. Modchips are nothing like rooting or jailbreaking. I root not to pirate but to actually make adblockers work and backup software since I switch roms a lot.


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## MetoMeto (Feb 11, 2022)

none of this is valid or fair, they are just demonstrating power and making example out of him. poor guy tho...
nintendo being one of the worst companies. i used to love them as a company and what they make.


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## Augusto101 (Feb 11, 2022)

.


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## Augusto101 (Feb 11, 2022)

Prison for this? Nah the legal system is pure BS at least it was brave sacrifice for the community...so thanks...


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## ccfman2004 (Feb 11, 2022)

Augusto101 said:


> Prison for this? Nah the legal system is pure BS at least it was brave sacrifice for the community...so thanks...


Like I said, he was someone Nintendont wanted to make an example of to disway others from following in his footsteps.


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## Augusto101 (Feb 11, 2022)

ccfman2004 said:


> Like I said, he was someone Nintendont wanted to make an example of to disway others from following in his footsteps.


Probably, but they will NEVER stop piracy, so yeah...nice try Nintendo keep wasting millions.


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## MetoMeto (Feb 11, 2022)

_"he also wasted the efforts of legitimate companies as they attempted to build protections for their products.”_
Perhaps those companies should make a.....oh idk, a better protections instead of whining and sending a guy to a jail?

Meanwhile people buying their products, helping them make millions so they can spend them on a witch hunt.


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## Viri (Feb 12, 2022)

I'm gonna download a torrent of every Nintendo game, since Nintendo loses money that way. Then I'm going to delete all the Nintendo games, and then re-download it. I'm gonna do this so much, that it'll make Nintendo lose too much money! Then I'm gonna "buy the dip" and become the majority share holder! 


I'll be sure to force Miyamoto to make a new F-Zero game once I become the new CEO!


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## badman112 (Feb 12, 2022)

It was obvious what they wanted to do, so the point of all that was jail time to begin with because big companies want to keep their precious greed.


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## The Catboy (Feb 12, 2022)

smf said:


> That is the main reason for locking any criminal up.


Yes but no. Obviously, that's why a lot of the reason for the public nature but sometimes there's just overkill for the sake of overkill. His crimes are bad but they aren't so extreme that they need to go through with so much. They've pretty much stated that this punishment is just for sake of making an example of him.


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## ChibiMofo (Feb 12, 2022)

aos10 said:


> so, he paid $4.5 million and still jailed?


You say that like it's okay to make $10M from criminal activity and only pay a fine for half that amount and not have to go to jail.

Thankfully this criminal genius is going to spend three years getting to know what prison life is really like. Trust me. He'll never re-offend again!


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## ChibiMofo (Feb 12, 2022)

badman112 said:


> It was obvious what they wanted to do, so the point of all that was jail time to begin with because big companies want to keep their precious greed.


And criminals want to steal from who do the actual work (read as big companies). Which side you on again? And by the way, the big companies don't decide prison time. That's not how it works. I would have thought that was obvious.


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## SeventhSon7 (Feb 12, 2022)

ChibiMofo said:


> You say that like it's okay to make $10M from criminal activity and only pay a fine for half that amount and not have to go to jail.


Corporations and banks do that all the time.


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## ZeroT21 (Feb 12, 2022)

Makes me wonder if the act of jailbreaking my own console is legal, as I may not even own it, according to big corp


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## weatMod (Feb 12, 2022)

tpax said:


> They probably tried.


death is to rite
prease understan
forced seppuku under threat of torture
 is the onry fair  sentence


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## DarknessPlay3r (Feb 12, 2022)

HRudyPlayZ said:


> Really, there's no way companies lost this much from piracy. Seems like they used a RNG to calculate the cost.
> A, because a digital copy of a game is free to make, it doesn't cost Nintendo anything to create one single more copy of the same game.
> B, because most pirates would have not bought the game in the first place (not winning ≠ losing) or may have bought it at some point already (which counts as winning money, not staying on the same spot, since again, digital copies are free to create)
> C, because the hacking scene is still pretty small compared to the full fanbase, and even with highly priced games, it wouldn't be enough to reach those numbers anyways.
> ...


I feel the need to clarify a few of these points as your missing the point behind the reasoning:

A) Nothing is free. Absolutely nothing. A1) reproduction of said digital copy not only takes some means of transmitting that copy, in this case their own network. Servers, staff to maintain, _*power*_, all come to mind when recreating. A great example of how this can be exponential is the WiiU where you would download games directly from Nintendo and then apply tickets to quite literally pirate from them.

Side note of value, our viewing this thread takes the server to host it, all of which incurs cost that _*someone*_ has to pay for, I often feel facts like this are easily over looked.

B) In the eyes of the law piracy is piracy, and while your statement does apply to some, it doesn't apply to all. Piracy that allows purchase at a later time, can also lead to lost sales as they could be puchased second hand or later at a discounted rate.

This does equal loss as far as accounting goes

C) This case isn't just related to Nintendo, it's from the early days of TX which go back to Xbox (2004 era). As stated in a post from the justice department in this very thread The correlation most people are mistakenly making is that this is just Nintendo vs Bowser.

D) Used games still contain a sale, and while they do dampen sales, piracy is strictly loss. In the business world that will never equal the same.

E) The only reason to purchase and buy this over the free alternatives *is* piracy. This fact alone creates loss as now there is a transfer of funds that *potentially* would have gone to sales for those effected. This part is huge.

F) I hate to say this, but Gary *DID (almost) EVERYTHING*. With out him (or someone doing his job) TX would never have been a name people would say anything more than "what?" too. His work was critical, without advertising, and awareness TX wouldn't have captured the audience it has. Look at how many SX threads there are, credit where it's due. Gary is responsible for the awareness.

Marketing is everything, why do you think the internet is full of ads?

On a more personal note of things, I didn't care for him, his salesman like shilling of his views and products he "seemingly" had no association with (this is also long before this era) add to this the fact that Gateway was again part of the brand with shit like fucking brick code...

I may not care for him, but he did an incredible job at what he did do. When you sit down and plot it all out like someone in the justice department clearly has, this all falls inline with what one would expect. He became a global name in piracy, not an easy feat...

I left the final part of your post in as I believe you actually don't know just how bad a world with out a justice system could be. If you want an idea of what that looks like, take a look back to World War II. What happened then alone is why people must be held accountable.


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## shanefromoz (Feb 12, 2022)

I wish Gary all the best.
He did nothing wrong to me.


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## HRudyPlayZ (Feb 12, 2022)

DarknessPlay3r said:


> I feel the need to clarify a few of these points as your missing the point behind the reasoning:
> 
> A) Nothing is free. Absolutely nothing. A1) reproduction of said digital copy not only takes some means of transmitting that copy, in this case their own network. Servers, staff to maintain, _*power*_, all come to mind when recreating. A great example of how this can be exponential is the WiiU where you would download games directly from Nintendo and then apply tickets to quite literally pirate from them.
> 
> ...


A) That would be valid for a console like the Wii U or the PSVita that uses the official servers for piracy. The Switch, and indeed the Xbox, didn't cost anything to the console authors reproduction-wise though since pirates weren't profiting of their servers.

B) Yes, in the eyes of the law, piracy is piracy, but they just can't ethically count every download as a sale lost. Yes there are some downloads out there that would've been a sale if not for piracy, but they're very minimal compared to the portion of sales that would never have happened anyways. 
Meaning that those 60 millions they claim as damages are completely biased and came out of nowhere.

C) They might have counted the Xbox as well, but it would just make my point stronger as there's an even smaller proportion of hacked xboxs compared to vanilla ones, due to them requiring an hardmod.

D) Used games contain a sale, and so does piracy. Copying the game or the keys often requires to already have bought the game in the first place.
Piracy isn't a strct loss considering this.
Piracy and a largely sold used game are pretty much the same. Though, i agree it's rare to see a physical game that passed as much hands so it can compete with piracy numbers.

E) Homebrew isn't piracy, and both the chips and SXOS do let homebrew run as well, so you can't say they're exclusively used for it, even if the marketing made that a main selling point.

F) Marketing did play a big role, but keep in mind we're still talking about a specific device made for a niche part of the community.  I feel the persons handling the resale websites did a much better job at insuring SX sales than Gary, since most of the community already knew about linkers and such.
He did do a great job at marketing though i agree, he maybe shouldn't have made piracy a main selling point as obvious, since in the end, it's not the chips, the brand or most of the OS (outside of the XCI code) that are illegal, it's the marketing and encouragement to piracy.

I didn't care for SX much too, rest assured. The only real losses are the dongle (which is pretty ok compared to others) and the modchips. Those definitely should be made legal. Especially since they're not circumventing a DRM, Nintendo itself is. 

For the justice system i agree with you there, though i was mainly talking about copyright, patents and other DRM laws, it would definitely be better that those never existed than the currently broken system we have.


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## dh3lix-pooch (Feb 12, 2022)

Sure. He should get a fine. A big one. But this time of being getting jailed it like totally not matching the crime. So stupid. That is not sending a signal but creating anger.


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## p1ngpong (Feb 12, 2022)

Time for Gary to develop an IRL Jailbreak! ;O;


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## Zonark (Feb 12, 2022)

relauby said:


> According to documents provided in discovery, he only made $320,000 in the seven years he worked for Team Xecuter.


That’s his physical profit not the companies though which made the money


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## the_randomizer (Feb 12, 2022)

ZeroT21 said:


> Makes me wonder if the act of jailbreaking my own console is legal, as I may not even own it, according to big corp



Who cares what they think? Just jailbreak it anyway.


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## SonicRings (Feb 12, 2022)

I never understood how he was charging money for the SX OS. How do you charge money for a damn homebrew OS? 

I also never understood how so many people, especially users on this very forum, supported that by buying licenses. Have you no shame? The whole purpose of homebrew is to free your devices, not lock it behind another proprietary operating system. Free and open source or go bust. 

I'm glad such a practice is being punished to this extent to discourage anyone else from trying to do the same. Sure, you can monetize any devices that are required to hack a system, but the moment you monetize the operating system, you've lost my respect.


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## grabman (Feb 12, 2022)

SonicRings said:


> I never understood how he was charging money for the SX OS. How do you charge money for a damn homebrew OS?
> 
> I also never understood how so many people, especially users on this very forum, supported that by buying licenses. Have you no shame? The whole purpose of homebrew is to free your devices, not lock it behind another proprietary operating system. Free and open source or go bust.
> 
> I'm glad such a practice is being punished to this extent to discourage anyone else from trying to do the same. Sure, you can monetize any devices that are required to hack a system, but the moment you monetize the operating system, you've lost my respect.


I pay for USB load ability.  i have also enjoyed auto rcm and dongle allowing me to easily load payload....


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## relauby (Feb 12, 2022)

SonicRings said:


> I never understood how he was charging money for the SX OS. How do you charge money for a damn homebrew OS?


They weren't charging for the OS itself, but the devices that let you install a custom OS.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 12, 2022)

relauby said:


> They weren't charging for the OS itself, but the devices that let you install a custom OS.



He did charge money for devices that can brick your console, so that's fun


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## ut2k4master (Feb 12, 2022)

relauby said:


> They weren't charging for the OS itself, but the devices that let you install a custom OS.


they were charging to play pirated games specifically


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## Psionic Roshambo (Feb 12, 2022)

Spider_Man said:


> Nintendo making more money from courts and they still cant be arsed to put some money down and make something new.
> 
> Problem is, they claim Gary caused millions in damages to hard working folks making games, but will any of this money go to them?
> 
> That there is probably robbery, who the fuck pockets the money.



In all probability, this is what will happen... 

1. Gary will hire a lawyer and file for bankruptcy.
2. Mediation will ask Gary for bank records going back up to like 6 months, due to the amount probably hire a forensic accountant... If Gary's lawyer is really good he will be able to hide some money (not much) depending on the state laws he can keep his house but almost any other property is up for grabs to sell and pay for the 4.5 million... Anything unpaid like if Gary only had like 50K in the bank and 50K in other property... The other 4.4 Million just goes poof. No one gets anything. 

Now if Gary has that much money to just pay it? yeah Nintendo gets whatever the Lawers and courts don't scoop up. Likely something like 30%. I think Nintendo also has to pay taxes on that? Not sure.... 

Although if I was Gary, I would appeal everything. A lot of times initial judgements are reduced massively.. Everyone remembers the lady that spilled McD coffee on her crotch and won millions in the lawsuit. Very few people know that McD's appealed and reduced that to something way less than one million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants


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## SonicRings (Feb 12, 2022)

relauby said:


> They weren't charging for the OS itself, but the devices that let you install a custom OS.


What were the licenses then?


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## Tsukiru (Feb 12, 2022)

Yeah that's what happens when you make a commercial product purely for piracy. Not to mention bricking and what was done during the 3DS era.

Unfortunate how this is being framed and not leaving out the questionable baggage that brought it to this point, but that's to be expected. People worrying about if its okay to jailbreak their systems when that isn't the matter at hand anyways. It's not "don't mess with Nintendo" it's just "don't be stupid."

I don't like Nintendo either, I stopped buying from them and homebrew my consoles often, but not enough to ignore this dude was an asshat.


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## cracker (Feb 13, 2022)

I don't know about anyone else, but damn! life has already punished him it sounds like.


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## CJL18 (Feb 13, 2022)

I feel bad for the guy but just imagine how all those people who made the games working countless hours feel about there game getting pirated after all there hard work. He had it coming he stole millions of dollars from nintendo and all the people who worked there ass off on making the games!


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## subcon959 (Feb 13, 2022)

CJL18 said:


> I feel bad for the guy but just imagine how all those people who made the games working countless hours feel about there game getting pirated after all there hard work. He had it coming he stole millions of dollars from nintendo and all the people who worked there ass off on making the games!


The people who worked on the games got paid for doing their job. The only time piracy could possibly hurt devs themselves is with indie games, and I seriously doubt Nintendo would hand out any of the millions they made from this to them.


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## SonicRings (Feb 13, 2022)

CJL18 said:


> I feel bad for the guy but just imagine how all those people who made the games working countless hours feel about there game getting pirated after all there hard work. He had it coming he stole millions of dollars from nintendo and all the people who worked there ass off on making the games!


What a naive mindset.


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## Arilys (Feb 13, 2022)

CJL18 said:


> I feel bad for the guy but just imagine how all those people who made the games working countless hours feel about there game getting pirated after all there hard work. He had it coming he stole millions of dollars from nintendo and all the people who worked there ass off on making the games!


I really don't understand how there are people that use this argument. Do you honestly think that the devs only get paid after the game starts selling?
Sure, that applies to indie games, but I seriously doubt that Nintendo did this to help the indie devs, and I doubt even more that they'll give any of the 4.5 million to any indie devs lmao


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## smf (Feb 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Yes but no. Obviously, that's why a lot of the reason for the public nature but sometimes there's just overkill for the sake of overkill. His crimes are bad but they aren't so extreme that they need to go through with so much. They've pretty much stated that this punishment is just for sake of making an example of him.



There are very few criminals that have a positive outcome for society by locking them up.

Take away the setting an example to others and why else would you lock someone up?


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## smf (Feb 13, 2022)

Arilys said:


> I really don't understand how there are people that use this argument. Do you honestly think that the devs only get paid after the game starts selling?
> Sure, that applies to indie games, but I seriously doubt that Nintendo did this to help the indie devs, and I doubt even more that they'll give any of the 4.5 million to any indie devs lmao


Even if they work for a company that is paying them, if that company doesn't get paid then they may get laid off or not get raises, bonuses etc.

There was carnage in the uk game industry job market when a load of companies all went under at the same time. I don't think it ever really recovered.


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## smf (Feb 13, 2022)

ZeroT21 said:


> Makes me wonder if the act of jailbreaking my own console is legal, as I may not even own it, according to big corp


In terms of DMCA, AFAIK it's gbatemp that is liable for allowing discussion of jailbreaking & you if you tell someone how to do it (and of course TX for selling a product). I don't believe it covers you reading that information and performing the mod, or attempting to buy it. However if they can intercept the products being shipped then they can seize them (technically a country can probably seize it off you at their border too, if they have any idea what it is).

Of course, you downloading the games is illegal.


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## smf (Feb 13, 2022)

Subtle Demise said:


> Modchips are similar to rooting an Android or jailbreaking an iphone. The fact that they happen to enable piracy is just a side effect of opening up the software. If circumventing the DRM has even one legitimate use, then it is legitimate and shouldn't be illegal. Banning modchips or console hacking dongles is like banning hammers because a lot of people murder other people with them.


What is the legitimate use? This argument has been tried multiple times, the only concession they have given so far is that you can jailbreak a console to be able to pair a new optical drive with a console. Similar to jailbreaking an iphone but people came up with legitimate uses and got exemptions for phones. You have to make a good argument, not just stamp your feet and pout.

Your argument is like saying that cocaine should be legalized because someone somewhere might have a legitimate use for it, then going off to a strip club to snort cocaine off strippers.


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## Keylogger (Feb 13, 2022)

I hope for Bowser his Koopa team will rescue Him


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## Cris1997XX (Feb 13, 2022)

People are still taking Gary Bowser's side, defending him from the accusations, fee and jail time to shit on Nintendo (Even though it was the FBI who put him in prison). But they're absolutely ignorant about one thing: The dude put DRM on his modchips! You stop paying the (Forced) subscription? Bricked Switch. You try to steal his code? Bricked Switch. He even used other people's code for SXOS. But of course everyone glosses over all that


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## Arilys (Feb 13, 2022)

smf said:


> Even if they work for a company that is paying them, if that company doesn't get paid then they may get laid off or not get raises, bonuses etc.
> 
> There was carnage in the uk game industry job market when a load of companies all went under at the same time. I don't think it ever really recovered.


Piracy is a tiny, TINY percentage of the total userbase, be it in games, movies, whatever you want. Especially nowadays with how easy and "affordable" (if you don't think long term, but that's a different can of worms) streaming services are (for movies and music) and the ease of access to digital versions (in the case of games and books).

I mean, there's even that study that concluded that piracy barely affects end sales unless it's big blockbuster movies...and that in some cases (like games) it actually seems to help boost sales. Funny how said study was "hidden" _for years_ before we even got to see it. I wonder why  
Article 1
Article 2
The study itself

The reason companies are so vocal about piracy is because they can't handle the thought of not having *ALL* of the money. I still remember when Microsoft tried to make Xbox One games have that dumb DRM system where you had to verify that you owned the games every 24 hours, and would make lending/reselling games a crapfest to make people buy more instead of having to deal with that hassle.
Not to mention the occasional buzz about some game companies having ideas of trying to end selling games in second-hand.

The biggest reason companies lay off employees or don't give them raises often has little to do with piracy. Sometimes they do it even though they had hugely successful years (remember this?).
Again, companies con't care about consumers; they care about consumers' wallets. Just at how BotW, Mario Odyssey, MK8 Deluxe and other Nintendo exclusives are still 60 or 70 bucks even though some were released 5 years ago when the Switch first came out. Meanwhile, PS4 and Xbox exclusives tend to lower in price after a year or so.
They don't care about their "grunt" employees (the devs and so on) as much as they pretend to; they're busier trying to make their profit numbers as big as they can to brag to shareholders.

You even have cases where they'll bitch and moan about games that sell a huge amount of copies but don't reach their insane sales goals (I know there were a few cases of this a few years ago with EA and one or two other companies, but I can't remember enough specifics to find any proper links about it), and then it's the devs that get shafted for it.

And don't even get me started on the insane amount of money they get from microtransactions. Here's another one. And this one even mentions Nintendo, but it doesn't have any specifics about the split between MTXs and digital game sales - but if we go by the other examples, I'm gonna guess the MTXs are the bigger piece of the pie.

*Note:* I'm not defending Gary Bowser. I always thought that charging for the hardware mods was a bit close to the line (but I also understand it because it involves costs of production and sending to buyers), but them also making SXOS have licenses was especially cheesy and made me not care at all about chipping my Lite.
Plus marketing the SXOS for piracy was just a really dumb strategy.

*TL;DR: *There's a study that reveals that piracy might actually help boost sales of games in certain cases, and even then piracy is such a small percent of the whole userbase that whatever losses it causes are basically "pennies" compared to the rest of the money that Nintendo and other gaming companies rake in from legit buys of consoles, games, DLCs and microtransactions._ Especially in Nintendo's case_ since they just refuse to lower their prices and end up with 5 year old games still at 60 or 70 bucks that somehow still keep selling like hot cakes.

This is Nintendo just flexing their "legal muscles" and going way too overkill just because they have the money to do so, imo. Gary deserves some punishment, but dragging him over the coals then nailing him to a cross as an example makes them no better than the "evil" they're trying to "stop".


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## City (Feb 13, 2022)

Arilys said:


> Piracy is a tiny, TINY percentage of the total userbase


Lmao

It's because of the rampant piracy on Android that the majority of games tend to be freemium garbage, while the good games get forgotten because they either get ignored or pirated even if they cost very little. Imagine if you could pirate on consoles like you can on Android.


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## Urcent_Ex (Feb 13, 2022)

I'm about to start a Go Fund Me for Big Gary. 
He did nothing wrong.
Hopefully they release him sooner.


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## Bladexdsl (Feb 13, 2022)

City said:


> Imagine if you could pirate on consoles like you can on Android.


that would be glorious


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## Arilys (Feb 13, 2022)

City said:


> Lmao
> 
> It's because of the rampant piracy on Android that the majority of games tend to be freemium garbage, while the good games get forgotten because they either get ignored or pirated even if they cost very little.


Comparing two completely different markets (console gaming vs mobile gaming).

I don't remember Android gaming starting off with paid games, the whole hype I saw about it was about there were so many free games on it.
If you're going to make one of the main draws of your platform the free games, you're obviously gonna attract way more people that will be willing to pirate the ones that end up being paid. Consoles are the opposite: everyone knows the majority of games are paid, and the free ones are the minority, so a big part of the userbase is fine with paying for the games.

Besides, mobile gaming pretty much blows the rest of the gaming industry out of the water profit-wise because devs just need to find the whales.

Again, apples and oranges comparison.

Either way, emphasis by me:


Spoiler



"Monument Valley joins a short list composed of Minecraft and The Room for *premium-priced games that are performing well on smartphones and tablets*.

So while *pay rates of 5 percent* and 40 percent seem depressing, *it’s not something that is bothering Ustwo*.

“We’re not complaining at all,” the developer went on to write on Twitter. “It’s to be expected. It’s just interesting data.”

Ustwo announced this morning that its whole development team is back in the office for the first time since October. So clearly, it is *ready to get back to work despite piracy eating into its earning potential*."



It does suck for any games that try to be paid-only on Android, but like your own article points out, the devs were already expecting an outcome like this.
Even after this, they're going back to work on games that I assume will be released on mobile as well, so that just looks to me that even with this much piracy on Android, they still consider their profits high enough that they'll keep making games.

Now if you tell me that Android should get its shit together and find some way to help developers make games / apps harder to pirate, I'll agree with you. But we know that's probably, so if devs are really getting burned by all the mobile piracy, they should just move on and make paid games for console and PC instead, or just join the dark side and make free games to try to find their own whales.



City said:


> Imagine if you could pirate on consoles like you can on Android.


Imagine if Nintendo lowered the prices of games after a year or two instead of keeping them full price until they stop making them. Some more people would probably be willing to buy them instead of waiting for piracy or second hand sales (which also "hurt" companies, according to some).

See, I can make "what if" non-arguments too.


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## SonicRings (Feb 13, 2022)

City said:


> Imagine if you could pirate on consoles like you can on Android.


That would be great! No way in hell am I paying $90 plus $40 for dlc for a port with additional ported levels (cough Mario Kart 8 + new DLC cough).





Seriously, tell me with a straight face that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, a port of a Wii U game that released in 2014 (8 YEARS AGO!!), should be worth $90. This shit NEVER goes on sale, either.
Add the $35 +tax on top (so $40) and you've got yourself a nice $130 gaming experience that you can only reduce by $10 if you buy the base game second hand (because yes, people still charge $80 for the base game). Maybe take another $10 off if you get lucky and the person's willing to go down to $70 for you. Assuming of course they don't delete/block you for making such an offer in the first place.


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## KennyAtom (Feb 13, 2022)

Jumping on the train here to say both sides are wrong in this situation.

Nintendo shouldn't have dragged him through the mud this hard, 5 years is a little strong, especially since he's already served 2 just in custody at this point.

Gary Bowser was wrong because you do not charge for both chips and software, and to be honest, I don't buy his "But I only made 320k in 7 years!" claim,  that'd mean he only had 45,714 USD a year, and that doesn't seem like a livable wage (unless he worked on the side as well)


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## relauby (Feb 13, 2022)

KennyAtom said:


> Gary Bowser was wrong because you do not charge for both chips and software, and to be honest, I don't buy his "But I only made 320k in 7 years!" claim,  that'd mean he only had 45,714 USD a year, and that doesn't seem like a livable wage (unless he worked on the side as well)


Well, he was living in the Dominican Republic, and I think that's well above average salary there, based on an article I saw in the Dominican Today (assuming that's reliable).


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## Fred Molyneux (Feb 13, 2022)

But seriously, no one doubts the guilty plea from Gary? I mean, we know in USA the justice system is totally messed up. You have 97% conviction rate in federal court (like even African dictators don't have such a high conviction rate) and basically, you either plea guilty and come out alive, or you fight, and you are almost certain to get a death sentence (they were asking for 80+ years in prison with all the counts).
Just saying, for all those years we saw Gary around, posting news about everything -not just TX- and I never heard anyone told me he bought something from Gary. He got advertising money, but I never heard anyone who told me he bought from Gary or that Gary connected him to one of his distributor.
I do not trust a single word from the FBI, since its creation that agency has been proven to be corrupted and just a bunch of liars. I mean, look at Assange now, look at Snowden, they invaded Irak and that resulted in 500,000 civilian deaths, on lies they created.
Just saying, does anyone really believes what they write? I think we will know the truth only when Gary comes out or from one of the real TX guy, as I don't even think Gary was part of TX at all. And Gary never paid $4.5 millions, the guy was broke, he had a court appointed lawyer. He just agreed to it and will never pay it of course. Where is all the money they claim was made?
They accuse the French guy to be the main guy. Nintendo is in France, TX products are/were sold in France, why there is no court action in France? Maybe because they can't buy justice in real democracies.
I think this was just to scare the real TX guys, possibly some of them are Americans, and it worked, as they kept going for a while (apparently Gary wasn't much needed), and finally bailed out. But in the end, we have one probably 100% innocent guy rotting in jail because that's just a game for corrupt FBI.


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## KennyAtom (Feb 13, 2022)

relauby said:


> Well, he was living in the Dominican Republic, and I think that's well above average salary there, based on an article I saw in the Dominican Today (assuming that's reliable).


weird, I heard he was in Canada.

I guess you learn something new every day, thank you for letting me know, the 320k seems much more believable now

I still doubt he made only 320k, but if that's an above average salary, then it is a little more believable.


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## smf (Feb 13, 2022)

Arilys said:


> Piracy is a tiny, TINY percentage of the total userbase, be it in games, movies, whatever you want. Especially nowadays with how easy and "affordable" (if you don't think long term, but that's a different can of worms) streaming services are (for movies and music) and the ease of access to digital versions (in the case of games and books).
> 
> I mean, there's even that study that concluded that piracy barely affects end sales unless it's big blockbuster movies...and that in some cases (like games) it actually seems to help boost sales.


Wishful thinking

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017...acy-doesnt-hurt-game-sales-may-actually-help/
EU study finds piracy doesn’t hurt game sales, may actually help​Results suggest a positive effect, but there's a huge margin of error.​The 306-page "Estimating Displacement Rates of Copyrighted Content in the EU" report (PDF) points out a number of caveats for this headline number, not least of which is a 45-percent error margin that makes the results less than statistically significant (i.e. indistinguishable from noise).


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## relauby (Feb 13, 2022)

KennyAtom said:


> weird, I heard he was in Canada.
> 
> I guess you learn something new every day, thank you for letting me know, the 320k seems much more believable now
> 
> I still doubt he made only 320k, but if that's an above average salary, then it is a little more believable.


He's originally Canadian and lived there much of his life (bounced around between US and Canada as a kid) but he was extradited from the Dominican Republic when this all went down. Not sure how long he was living there, but seeing as some of the other TX guys lived there I'd say he lived there for most, if not all, of his time with TX.


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## SomeKindOfUsername (Feb 14, 2022)

Good. Not so much for any monetary damage they caused Nintendo or other developers but because of their piggybacking off of work from open source developers without so much as giving credit, the latter of which get nothing but shit from "wonderful" communities because they don't prioritize piracy. As far as I'm concerned, this is karma.

Also, not every prison is maximum security. Amazing how many people don't get that but judging from some of these posts I'm guessing the average age here is in the mid-teens.

Edit: As for pirates saying they'll continue to pirate, I'm reminded of this


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## the_randomizer (Feb 14, 2022)

Poor Nintendo must have been devastated from all the massive sales they didn't really lose on, oh noes.


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## MochaMilk (Feb 14, 2022)

Nothing like ruining someone's life just to set a petty example


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## codezer0 (Feb 14, 2022)

Casual reminder that, in light of this, it's not only ethical, but *morally mandated* to pirate the fuck out of Nintendo hardware and software, to correct this grievous error.
Fuck NoA. Fuck NoJ especially. Fuck Miyamoto's temper tantrums screwing over third parties. Fuck their xenophobia.

Shit's gone wayyy too far.


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## Cris1997XX (Feb 14, 2022)

To everyone throwing shades at Nintendo: Poor little Gary is known in the homebrew scene as someone who steals other people's code (As found in SXOS) and promotes his modchips for piracy, along with the aforementioned crimes I talked about in my first message. You should really go find more info on Twitter and stop reading Kotaku's headlines. I know, it's difficult, but please try for once


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## jomaper (Feb 14, 2022)

As a Nintendo lover: fuck Nintendo.
I hacked and will keep hacking my consoles any chance I get. Fuck them and their greedy minds. The dude already got a multimillionaire fine and will also serve +3 years, way more than actual cops killing people.
Fuck the US too.

@Cris1997XX do you really think this is just about Gary? I don't give a crap about how he steals code or not, and even if he did do you really think he deserves +10m in fines AND 3 years in jail? I give a crap about the precedent that this shit creates in a system that works like the US'. This is BAD for EVERYONE but Nintendo. Let's hope they don't start going after people downloading ROMs.


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## chrisrlink (Feb 14, 2022)

at this rate idc if russia nukes the USA the corrupt government deserves it maybe after ww3 and the near extinction of human life who survives might (keyword might) repent for their mistakes being run by corperate shitheads who's companies aren't USA based even we are basicly outsourcinng our government and people are too stupid to realize this


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## badman112 (Feb 14, 2022)

ChibiMofo said:


> And criminals want to steal from who do the actual work (read as big companies). Which side you on again? And by the way, the big companies don't decide prison time. That's not how it works. I would have thought that was obvious.


What work i bought my console i will damn well please do with it whatever i wish. Just because some idiot makes a law about it i have to now abide by it or i go to prison. Thats why the world is totally screwed up today because this stuff is now worse than murder and other high grade crimes. Its a stupid law some greedy guy invented making it his/hers intelectual property when the tax payers funded that SOB to go school and give him free means to learn the basics and the same tax payers that looked after his family which gave him means to work as they got older. If your sfuff gets copyrighted dont make it... Ask the guys at wall street how much money they loose you dont see them making laws except the big fish like Goldman sachs or whatever these guys are called.
Here is the logic ..... So we should never invent cars right because the 4 wheels was someones idea long long time ago so the rest of the world benefits from that as it was not copyright. Copyright is a simple thing that people make it their property forgetting how things orignated in the first place. Infact dont use wheels because that was someone elses idea.
Coding was always free as well as alot of the core mechanics used to make the very industry as it is. Lets not play around here its these compnaies got big money and some guy found a way around that cooperate BS system. that money these giants have or shall i say greed pretty much gives them infinte rights as long as they have the money.
Please stop the crap i know how this world works it what someone wants to think and then push a law thats basically it and in this case they paid enough money to do it.
Criminal because someone makes this dumb law, then stealing what exactly. All these big comapnies take ideas and make it their own and then copyright it what garbage. I dont care for this dumb law at all its stupid just like the people running the country. Whats worse is this get looked like as though some guy murdered someone.


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## TheGodMauro (Feb 14, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> at this rate idc if russia nukes the USA the corrupt government deserves it maybe after ww3 and the near extinction of human life who survives might (keyword might) repent for their mistakes being run by corperate shitheads who's companies aren't USA based even we are basicly outsourcinng our government and people are too stupid to realize this


This, ladies and gentlemen, is how you get on a watch-list.

Like, for real though, I know it was either a moment of anger or a joke, but don't make posts online talking about the potential death of people, nowadays more than ever. Whether you mean it or not, it's the kind of shit that can ruin or damage your life if anyone connects the dots to your online persona. Not exactly worth it for some internet points, is it?


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## chrisrlink (Feb 14, 2022)

TheGodMauro said:


> This, ladies and gentlemen, is how you get on a watch-list.
> 
> Like, for real though, I know it was either a moment of anger or a joke, but don't make posts online talking about the potential death of people, nowadays more than ever. Whether you mean it or not, it's the kind of shit that can ruin or damage your life if anyone connects the dots to your online persona. Not exactly worth it for some internet points, is it?


oh well i probably already was/am because of a previous religion choice,,,,,emphasis on previous i could care less about any religion now besides if wishful thinking can get you arested and having no means or way to do it that scares me on itself like i have no car no hacking skills no guns none of that I'm harmless besides i'm so weak people can easily overpower me and besides it was more of a psychotic moment caue well just sick of all the corruption in the world anyways's I'll stop there


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## badman112 (Feb 14, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> oh well i probably already was/am because of a previous religion choice,,,,,emphasis on previous i could care less about any religion now besides if wishful thinking can get you arested and having no means or way to do it that scares me on itself like i have no car no hacking skills no guns none of that I'm harmless besides i'm so weak people can easily overpower me and besides it was more of a psychotic moment caue well just sick of all the corruption in the world anyways's I'll stop there


Well if people die I just hope it's the damn idiots who went to war. But I can bet its going to be the innocent that's going to get the short end of the stick. Let's not fail to mention the troops that get politically dragged into this because they are on a pay check. This makes me sick to my being.... greedy messed up government scum. Just proves that no matter whatever political group war is on their list.
I can bet when it comes to this kind of thing its not criminal right???? for those stupid people out their this is one of those things. Like copyright why don't they make a law to make war illegal better yet let's copyright it as someone else has already done it... all the weapons and intelligence is someone's intellectual property. Let's not profit from it now and make it against the law. What a joke of a system.


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## KennyAtom (Feb 15, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> at this rate idc if russia nukes the USA the corrupt government deserves it maybe after ww3 and the near extinction of human life who survives might (keyword might) repent for their mistakes being run by corperate shitheads who's companies aren't USA based even we are basicly outsourcinng our government and people are too stupid to realize this


Going a little far there bud? I know you're in that "everyone is sinner, everyone must die" phase that every 14 year old goes through, but wanting everyone to die because Nintendo sued a pirate? Kinda far man.


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## langston (Feb 15, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> at this rate idc if russia nukes the USA the corrupt government deserves it maybe after ww3 and the near extinction of human life who survives might (keyword might) repent for their mistakes being run by corperate shitheads who's companies aren't USA based even we are basicly outsourcinng our government and people are too stupid to realize this


My god man you need to calm down, you really want the death of 300 million+ people for 1-5 fucked up laws, go outside, take a walk, Russian is no better heck they are worse.


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## City (Feb 15, 2022)

SonicRings said:


> That would be great! No way in hell am I paying $90 plus $40 for dlc for a port with additional ported levels (cough Mario Kart 8 + new DLC cough).
> 
> View attachment 298048
> 
> ...


No one cares that you can't afford 90 bucks for Mario Kart lmao and if that's your go-to for out of control piracy then you really need to meet some people who are developers for a living.


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## City (Feb 15, 2022)

Arilys said:


> Comparing two completely different markets (console gaming vs mobile gaming).
> 
> I don't remember Android gaming starting off with paid games, the whole hype I saw about it was about there were so many free games on it.
> If you're going to make one of the main draws of your platform the free games, you're obviously gonna attract way more people that will be willing to pirate the ones that end up being paid. Consoles are the opposite: everyone knows the majority of games are paid, and the free ones are the minority, so a big part of the userbase is fine with paying for the games.
> ...


Android games all started as paid, then people were like "wait, I can just download the .apk" and developers quickly found out that they shouldn't include mobile phones in their multiplatform support because they'd lose a fuckton of money due to piracy.

Also, imagine making asinine comparisons like Nintendo games and indie games and wanting all indie devs to go bankrupt because evil Nintendo won't give me a 90% discount on some mario games no one cares about anymore.


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## Arilys (Feb 15, 2022)

smf said:


> Wishful thinking
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017...acy-doesnt-hurt-game-sales-may-actually-help/
> EU study finds piracy doesn’t hurt game sales, may actually help​Results suggest a positive effect, but there's a huge margin of error.​The 306-page "Estimating Displacement Rates of Copyrighted Content in the EU" report (PDF) points out a number of caveats for this headline number, not least of which is a 45-percent error margin that makes the results less than statistically significant (i.e. indistinguishable from noise).


And yet it's still the most thorough study that we have, even according to that article you link. Also, a few paragraphs after the one that points out the margin of error:


Spoiler: Pages 149/150



"Displacement rates for games have been little analysed in previous literature, but it is interesting that a study of Bastard et al. (2012) also indicate significant positive effects, suggesting that games have succeeded in turning illegal online transactions to their advantage by hooking up gamers and offering more levels / bonuses that are available only after paying."



I had a bit of a skim through the study for a few hours these last few days (at least until the initial interest faded and I got way too bored lol), and here are some things I noticed:



Spoiler: Pages 7/8



"In general, the results do not show robust statistical evidence of displacement of sales by online copyright infringements. That does not necessarily mean that piracy has no effect but only that the statistical analysis does not prove with sufficient reliability that there is an effect."





Spoiler: Page 13



Image





Spoiler: Page 15 (related to the bit from pg. 149/150)



"For games, the estimated effect of illegal online transactions on sales is positive – implying that illegal consumption leads to increased legal consumption. This positive effect of illegal downloads and streams on the sales of games may be explained by the industry being successful in converting illegal users to paying users. Tactics used by the industry include, for example, offering gameplay with extra bonuses or extra levels if consumers pay."





Spoiler: Pages 79/80



Don't feel like copying a bunch of different tables for 1 spoiler, so go check it out if you want. The gist of it is that between 2009 and 2013 (the years they studied for this specific bit), *physical *game sales have generally gone down, but digital sales went up. Doesn't really say much about piracy in itself, but from all the whining from Nintendo and others, you'd think that digital sales would be stagnated or even going down because of piracy.





Spoiler: Page 84



Section titled "Survey based results – Games", so basically the second half of the page. Basically, it mentions how previous studies concluded that game piracy isn't as harmful as it is for music, since games often find ways to make legal purchases worth it. They don't mention this, but I'm guessing they mean stuff like the ability to play multiplayer or, in the case of consoles, availability of stuff like updates/DLCs (sometimes games will be dumped, but updates/DLCs won't)





Spoiler: Pages 92 to 94



Sections "6.3 Use of creative content" and "6.4 Proportion of illegal downloaders / streamers".
These compare the percentage of people that used legal services, and how many of those also pirated stuff.
Do note, it doesn't make the distinction between people that just pirated, or that pirated but later bought the thing. In the case of gaming, I think it'd even be interesting to know how many pirated then bought a game, and how many pirated but didn't buy because they didn't like the game (so they'd end up not buying it if demos existed, or if they tried a friend's copy, etc).





Spoiler: Page 99



Image
Shows the percent of people that got games through various means. Note again, it doesn't indicate how many are "repeated" between different options - as in, it's possible that a portion of the respondents pirated certain games, but also bought others.





Spoiler: Page 104/105



"Most games played in the EU are free games and legal streams (including online consoles), on average close to 4 each in a year, followed closely by 3.4 games bought on a CD or other physical carrier. Slightly fewer games are played after a legal downloads, illegal downloads or streams or on a chipped console. On average people play only one cloud games such as one from Gaikai, Onlive or games directly from the server of the games developer in a year."
Image
Again, grain of salt and all that, but still, the amount of pirated stuff doesn't seem as large as companies want people to think.





Spoiler: Pages 110 to 113



Explains the system they used to reduce the chance of pirates replying untruthfully about their pirating. Like mentioned in earlier bits of the study, it resulted in a higher rate of piracy reports compared to other studies.
They do say it's not 100% guaranteed that none of the respondents lied, but it's still positive enough to believe they have a decent amount of truthful responses.





Spoiler: Page 114



"(...)for books and games these percentages [of illegal online users] are between 14 and 18 per cent for illegal downloads, streams and gamers playing on a chipped console."





Spoiler: Page 115



"The high self-reported piracy rates in this study compared to previous literature indicate that untruthful replies to illegal behaviour are no more a problem in this study than in previous studies. To test the truthfulness of replies one must make assumptions about who would deny piracy. A hypothesis about cognitive dissonance and moral attitudes does not give conclusive results. However, assuming that people speak the truth about their knowledge of piracy terms, and that true pirates are more familiar with piracy terms than true legal buyers, the discrepancy in knowledge of piracy terms of 20 percent point between self-confessed pirates and self-reporting legal buyers indicates that one must assume strong ignorance of piracy terms among true legal buyers to claim that the sample of self-reporting legal buyers is contaminated with denying pirates. A further comparison of knowledge of non-piracy related internet savvy terms indicates that both legal buyers and pirates respond truthfully about their knowledge of piracy terms, unless denying pirates also lie about their knowledge of non-piracy related internet terms. Under these neutrally formulated assumptions, the proportions of self-confessed pirates and self-reporting legal buyers knowing piracy and non-piracy related internet savvy terms imply that the latter group is not contaminated with denying pirates, and hence that all respondents speak the truth about their behaviour."

Sort of a summary of the stuff from pg 110-113





Spoiler: Page 120 (emphasis mine)



"For games, illegal downloads and streams were grouped together and a separate question was asked about the number of games played on chipped consoles. For games, the *OLS estimates suggest that every 100 games played illegally induce an extra 28 to 41 legal transactions of games.* However, since many people use both legal and illegal channels, these OLS estimates may still be biased due to the endogeneity problem discussed above despite controlling for e.g. interest in creative content and the use of internet to search information on creative content(...)"

Note we don't know how many of those pirated copies were actually played to the end of the game and which were from people that just tried out the game for a few hours then stopped playing because they weren't interested enough (so they likely would have not bought the games anyway if there were demos, or other non-piracy ways to try them out before purchase).
Still, even with margins of error and all other grains of salt, I think we can't deny that certain cases of piracy do help sell SOME legit copies.






Spoiler: Page 138



"For games the reason for the positive effects may be that players may get hooked to a game and access a game legally to play the game with all bonuses, at higher levels or whatever makes playing the game legally more interesting."

This is similar to the bit on page 84.





Spoiler: Page 139 (emphasis mine)



"*Despite the large uncertainty of the estimates*, the most likely effects are:
• Games: out of every 100 online copyright infringements, 24 induce an extra legal transaction."



And that's that, I didn't read much more past page 150 (from the first spoiler).

I'm not saying piracy is completely harmless. I'll even admit that I thought it was less of an issue because I hadn't given this study any actual look, so I was going off results of previous, less accurate ones.
Either way, my point is that piracy also isn't as cataclysmic as companies make it out to be. This study isn't perfect, but it's the best attempt so far that's been done to figure this out.

Besides, the fact that it took so long for it to go public still makes me lean towards the chance that the big companies are BSing a bit about their "losses because of piracy", but that's just my opinion 



City said:


> Android games all started as paid, then people were like "wait, I can just download the .apk" and developers quickly found out that they shouldn't include mobile phones in their multiplatform support because they'd lose a fuckton of money due to piracy.


And two or so years later, Angry Birds kicked off the "trend" of In-App Purchases. They even ended up removing the base game's price tag because they realised they'd get more money that way.
And like I mentioned earlier, if devs KNOW that piracy is so easy on Android but still keep making games without any sort of attempt at stopping it (either have an online check when you first install the game, or some other form of making sure the game was bought other than just having the apk), then it's on them.

Also, pretty sure devs also found out that mobile ports of games they originally released for console/pc got less attention because the controls are often ass compared to how they were originally meant to be played (controller or KB+Mouse) because not many people will lug around those accessories to play on a phone, and touchscreen controls are often way clumsier.

If they want to take it up with Google so they make Android more piracy resistant, I'm all for it. Google has more than enough money to try to improve Android, if only they stop focusing on other dumb crap.



City said:


> Also, imagine making asinine comparisons like Nintendo games and indie games and wanting all indie devs to go bankrupt because evil Nintendo won't give me a 90% discount on some mario games no one cares about anymore.


Can you quote the post where I said that instead of pulling it out of your sore ass? Because if you're right, then I have a weird way of wanting indie devs to go bankrupt. Like, real weird.
And that's not even close to showing my full 415 game Steam library, which is probably not even that impressive compared to other people.



City said:


> No one cares that you can't afford 90 bucks for Mario Kart lmao (...)


I hope you know how easy it is to turn that into a "if they don't care about me being unable to pay for their game, why should I care about their feelings if I pirate?"
It's idiots like you that make others pirate out of spite.


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## Stevenpavelish (Feb 16, 2022)

AmandaRose said:


> So Long, Gary Bowser
> 
> (Sorry couldn't resist modifying the famous misheard quote from Mario 64.


XD


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## Donnie-Burger (Feb 16, 2022)

I do remember when the TX Licenses came out they were bragging about 1+million sold 1st week @$20+ each thats over 20 million just on licenses in week 1.  Not including the Pro dongles/Their paid freeshop and later on the Core/Lite.  Max and Chen ran with it.

SO YEAH THEY DID DAMAGE>  How it converts to actual piracy #s I dunno.


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## SG854 (Feb 16, 2022)

Don't worry Gary Bowser will hack his way out


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## Blurro (Feb 16, 2022)

Cris1997XX said:


> To everyone throwing shades at Nintendo: Poor little Gary is known in the homebrew scene as someone who steals other people's code (As found in SXOS) and promotes his modchips for piracy, along with the aforementioned crimes I talked about in my first message. You should really go find more info on Twitter and stop reading Kotaku's headlines. I know, it's difficult, but please try for once


if being a bit of a cunt was a crime half the internet would be in prison lol


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## depaul (Feb 16, 2022)

Nintendo should be ashamed proud of themselves.


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## WelfareTaco (Feb 16, 2022)

Meh, he knew what he was doing and what the risks were. He had years to knock it off and they would have left him alone. He also sold games, straight up. Anyone who thinks he just sold SXOS doesn't know what they're talking about. I bought SXOS, used it, enjoyed it but this guy fucked around and found out. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## udo4ever (Feb 17, 2022)

Arilys said:


> And yet it's still the most thorough study that we have, even according to that article you link. Also, a few paragraphs after the one that points out the margin of error:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Pages 149/150
> ...


Good points there. This is reliable and scientific examination of the question related to piracy and sales. There is currently no direct correlation between the amount of piracy and the loss of sales.

When taking this into consideration, one wonders what the motives are for the U.S's legal system to crack down so hard on Team E. and other hackers.  The bottom line is that these laws are meant to bully citizens into complying with unreasonable requests to avoid tampering with the very same technology we pay with our own money for.

The fact of the matter is that much of the corporate legislation currently created in the U.S. favour big corporations. This is not by chance but by design. Indeed, ever since the decision of Citizen united vs FCC. took place, corporations now have the legal recognition as "people" and just like people they have a right to create laws. So Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, or company X , have gotten busy and put their multi-billion dollars to good us to influence the laws of this country. The end results is that the actual citizens end up loosing in the name of copyright infrigement. The only way to change this is to have a massive reform of the legal system where corporate lobbying is rendered illegal and where companies are no long considered as legal citizens.

My advice: we absolutely should continue to hack our device as I do not see any ethical issues related to this. If, there was a direct correlation between piracy and sales loss, than I can accept that there would be ethical considerations standing against piracy. However, given the empirical evidence in this study, the ethical dimensions are at best, debatable and certainly don't merit the kind of legal consequences as this case shows.


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## smf (Feb 17, 2022)

Arilys said:


> This study isn't perfect, but it's the best attempt so far that's been done to figure this out.


Best attempts doesn't mean they are true though.

The tobacco industries best efforts to find a link between smoking and cancer failed to find a link.



udo4ever said:


> If, there was a direct correlation between piracy and sales loss, than I can accept that there would be ethical considerations standing against piracy. However, given the empirical evidence in this study, the ethical dimensions are at best, debatable and certainly don't merit the kind of legal consequences as this case shows.



Not just a correlation, piracy causes sales loss. Not a 1:1 loss, but picking up a gun and shooting someone doesn't have a 1:1 correlation to the victim dying either. Pirate or don't, that isn't my concern but arguing that it doesn't affect sales is gas lighting the software companies.


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## Arilys (Feb 18, 2022)

smf said:


> Best attempts doesn't mean they are true though.


Neither does it mean that the "damage" is as big as the companies claim.



smf said:


> The tobacco industries best efforts to find a link between smoking and cancer failed to find a link.


"The companies that wanted to sell something bad for your health did studies and conveniently got inconclusive results on whether or not the thing they wanted to sell was bad for your health"

Come on now lmao, why would this study defend piracy instead of supporting the companies that are trying to push more ways to make people buy games instead of getting them for free?

Unless deep down they're pirates and managed to scam 360,000€ from the European Commission and troll gaming companies by concluding "yeah, there's not enough proof either way, but in some cases piracy might lead to a few extra purchases" lol


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## smf (Feb 18, 2022)

Arilys said:


> Unless deep down they're pirates and managed to scam 360,000€ from the European Commission and troll gaming companies by concluding "yeah, there's not enough proof either way, but in some cases piracy might lead to a few extra purchases" lol


Why do you think that is unlikely?

You're here trying to persuade everyone there is no moral problem with piracy for free, why couldn't someone do the same thing for money?

It wouldn't even just be because they are pirates that they may want to spin the results a certain way, they may be thinking about their next research assignment. It wouldn't look so good if they turned round and said that what they did was pointless because their methods don't produce useful results.


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## udo4ever (Feb 18, 2022)

smf said:


> Best attempts doesn't mean they are true though.
> 
> The tobacco industries best efforts to find a link between smoking and cancer failed to find a link.
> 
> ...


@smf: I am not going to get into the logistics of the value of peer-reviewed reports. However, given the kind of report we are discussing, it is clear that no direct correlation is present between piracy and sales.

To equate the case of the  the tabocco industry with its subsequent investigation of the ill effects of tabocco is not appropriate. As Arilys mentioned, the tabocco industry themselves investigated the correlation between tabocco and physcial illness (cancer, emphasema). They did find direct correlations but buried the results and claimed that they could find none. The legal strategy was to delay due process to the maximum extent so they can rake in millions.

In this case of this research report, there is no such conflict of interest or bias. Just because it may seem like something is related to another thing (in this case piracy to sales) does not mean it is related at all. The fact that they found no correlation is a huge sign that they may actually not be related at all. However, this does not mean that we will never find a correlation in the future. When it comes to the laws though, they act as if there is a significant correlation and have created extreme laws that severely punish those who sell piracy devices or circumvent anti-piracy measures. Their case rests of the claim that they made this multi-million dollar corporations lose millions when in fact there is no evidence of the sort to support this. What this amounts to is a guilty without sufficient proof verdict that the accused injured the sales of the company... (Keep in mind though I have yet to read the details of the evidence for the prosecution so there might be some evidence I am not aware off. So take this with a grain of salt.) This should send shivers down all our spines as consumers and citizens. It sets a precedent that corporation need not really prove direct injury to prosecute. Even worse, It shows that the laws side with them.


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## udo4ever (Feb 18, 2022)

smf said:


> Not just a correlation, piracy causes sales loss. Not a 1:1 loss, but picking up a gun and shooting someone doesn't have a 1:1 correlation to the victim dying either. Pirate or don't, that isn't my concern but arguing that it doesn't affect sales is gas lighting the software companies.


Also as a specific comment to this particular statement. You cannot make this claim, in fact the research shows the exact opposite. that is, the peer-reviewed research clearly cannot find scientific proof that "piracy causes sales loss" and we therefore should not create laws that pretend that this is a proven fact.

Your reference to shooting someone and probability of them dying is a strange one. This is more a question of probability not scientific correlation. If you meant to refer to the subject of gun control in general. I am not intimately familiar with the specific statistics in regards to this.  However, it would be interesting to see if there are any evidence to suggest that the easy access to gun  has a direct or mediated correlation with violence and shootings. I personally believe they do but have no evidence to support this and am therefore biased.


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## smf (Feb 18, 2022)

udo4ever said:


> Also as a specific comment to this particular statement. You cannot make this claim, in fact the research shows the exact opposite. that is, the peer-reviewed research clearly cannot find scientific proof that "piracy causes sales loss" and we therefore should not create laws that pretend that this is a proven fact.



"does not necessarily meant that piracy has no effect but only that the statistical analysis does not prove with sufficient reliability that there is an effect (p.7-8)."

Most laws are based on potential harm. You can't prove that drink driving will cause someone to have an accident either. Yet everyone is judged on the basis that they were happy to kill someone in an accident if they drive drunk.

If you sell a product that is designed to allow piracy then you are going to be judged as if you are happy with that too.

How do you think it would be possible to prove what the sales figures for a game would be with and without piracy? It seems impossible to tell.

_The lengthy document also mentions that the figures for sales of games are not publicly available outside of nation sector organisations or sector watchers, citing our sister site MCV’s reporting of chart data on a weekly basis. So while the studies of games are in the report, *they are generally inconclusive due to the lack of information on overall sales as opposed to physical sales of games which have declined along with other disc-based media*._


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## udo4ever (Feb 18, 2022)

smf said:


> "does not necessarily meant that piracy has no effect but only that the statistical analysis does not prove with sufficient reliability that there is an effect (p.7-8)."
> 
> Most laws are based on potential harm. You can't prove that drink driving will cause someone to have an accident either. Yet everyone is judged on the basis that they were happy to kill someone in an accident if they drive drunk.
> 
> ...


@smf, really excellent points. I think we might be on the same page when it comes to understanding the reach of the research.  My issue lies with the fact that we cannot find sufficient statistical analysis to prove that there is an effect, but act as if we *know* it does effect sales. In the case of drunk driving, the information and statistics are very much accessible, and there is a trend that we can establish between drinking and the probability of having an accident. There are thresholds in the statistics that have been met to suggest that, with good authority, alcohol consumption and driving combined is a dangerous combination. We then collectively decided that this should not be allowed for the safety of our society and citizens and rightly so. Debates have been had in parliament and with the citizenry and the law came into place. I do not think it is possible to have a 1:1 correlation with any topic of minimum complexity nor do I think this should be a requirement for laws to happen.

With this case, I am not so sure that these rules are done for the safety of society and citizens. In fact, I know that these copyright laws are absolutely for the protection of multi-national and national corporations and are about securing financial gains through lobbying and other means such as private donations to politicians and law makers. I wonder if some to these rules have been sufficiently debated by citizens before becoming law, especially given the current powers that corporations now have. That alone should make us take pause before supporting them as it puts into question the motives behind them.

Furthermore, The 3 year sentence and $10 Million dollar penalty for a citizen seems too punitive to me for something that does not meet the rigours of statistical analysis to prove that wrong doing has been done to the company. My point is that we should not go this far unless we have more evidence; that is, we should err on the side of caution. (edit: after re-reading, I have to also note that I do not know about the evidence the prosecution has forwarded. If their evidence showed, beyond reasonable doubt that the sales of the device hurt Nintendo's sales then my argument falls and the sentence is juste)...This principle is very similar to the "not guilty until proven" principle we hold so dearly.  Keep in mind that I am just talking about the sales of the devices to circumvent the Switch's anti-piracy software. I do not condone any sales of material that is wholly owned by Nintendo or other companies (i.e. videogames, etc.). that being said, claiming that one line of code that someone may have plagiarized from some company is grounds for imprisonment seems also unreasonable too.


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## smf (Feb 18, 2022)

udo4ever said:


> With this case, I am not so sure that these rules are done for the safety of society and citizens. In fact, I know that these copyright laws are absolutely for the protection of multi-national and national corporations and are about securing financial gains through lobbying and other means such as private donations to politicians and law makers.


You know who works for and owns multi national and national corporations? Citizens.

Of course you can argue it's unfair that those with money are prioritized, but that is what money is for.



udo4ever said:


> that being said, claiming that one line of code that someone may have plagiarized from some company is grounds for imprisonment seems also unreasonable too.



That isn't why he is in prison, nobody is claiming that it's reasonable to imprison someone for plagiarizing one line of code.

DMCA is 20 years old, it's been debated continuously since then. Gary had plenty of warning & he located to another country to avoid the law. It is a lot of money and a long time in prison, he should blame his lawyer.


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## udo4ever (Feb 18, 2022)

smf said:


> You know who works for and owns multi national and national corporations? Citizens.
> 
> Of course you can argue it's unfair that those with money are prioritized, but that is what money is for.
> 
> ...


In terms ofthe "one-line of code" this was said in reference to other cases not this particular one.  it was in reference to my previous statement that I agree that it is illegal to sell code wholly owned by a corporation.

In regards to the statement of who owns corporations. Of course shareholders are citizens. However, to state that multi-national corporations are owned by citizens and to suggest that this is equivalent to having all citizens in the U.S. is to wilfully spin things for the sake of argument alone. Please have a look at Citizen united vs FCC to see why this line of thinking is very dangerous for democracy. I am certainly not going to spend time arguing whether shareholders and CEO at multi-million dollar corporations accurately reflect the will of the citizenry. if this is true, then why spend so much money on lobbying for legislation and influencing law.

Either you are now trolling me or there is no point in arguing further about this since we are definitely not on the same page when it comes to defining what a corporation is and the current role it plays in society.


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## smf (Feb 18, 2022)

udo4ever said:


> I am certainly not going to spend time arguing whether shareholders and CEO at multi-million dollar corporations accurately reflect the will of the citizenry. if this is true, then why spend so much money on lobbying for legislation and influencing law.



Laws aren't about the will of the citizenry. People are contradictory and often quite awful. Laws often protect minorities from the majority.

They lobby to get what they want, it doesn't mean that what they are lobbying for is bad. Politicians wouldn't otherwise pass laws that help the poor, if everyone stopped lobbying

You seem to be arguing poor people deserve to be treated better than rich people.


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## JJ1013 (Feb 18, 2022)

I mean, these are the ones who stalked Nintendo 3DS modders if I remember correctly, and government didn't give a shit. What else were we expecting?


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## JJ1013 (Feb 18, 2022)

EDIT: It posted twice. Can I delete this?


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## Arilys (Feb 18, 2022)

smf said:


> Why do you think that is unlikely?
> 
> You're here trying to persuade everyone there is no moral problem with piracy for free, why couldn't someone do the same thing for money?


I'm not saying there are no moral problems. Morals are not the same for everyone, you do you, I'll do me.

I personally have no issue with pirating because I use it basically as game demos: if I do like a game enough, I'll buy it if I can find it on sale at a price that I feel is worth it (I refuse to pay 60€ for a game); if I don't like the game enough then I'll just stop playing the pirated version.
And since a whole bunch of games I own I only bought _because_ I tried out the pirated version, I feel no guilt about doing it.

Some people might be fine with that, others will call me dumb for paying for stuff I can get for free, and the rest might call me a dirty thief despite paying for the games I enjoy anyway. Okay sure, whatever helps them sleep at night lmao

*The whole thing about my posts isn't to say "piracy good because I like doing it". It's to try to make people more skeptical when Nintendo/EA/whatever come out and cry about how they "lost" X million dollars to piracy.*
Sure, piracy causes losses in sales to an extent, but *how can they be so sure of those numbers when every study so far has been inconclusive?*
(Given, if it's an indie dev it's different since they're, you know, small teams that work for years on one game instead of a giant company working on several games at once)



smf said:


> It wouldn't even just be because they are pirates that they may want to spin the results a certain way, they may be thinking about their next research assignment. It wouldn't look so good if they turned round and said that what they did was pointless because their methods don't produce useful results.


Let's go the other way on that: if they're lying in order to make their results look good, they could have tilted the results to lean more towards the "it's inconclusive but it seems that it does affect sales in all fields". It would be just as vague of a result but would probably net them some more money from others that want similar "useful results".

After all, a study like this one might discourage companies from requesting future ones in fear that piracy is proven negligible to their profits (the European Commission did delay the release of the full study for about 4 years after publishing only cherry-picked parts).
On the other hand, they'd probably request _more_ studies if they saw that they were close to getting their coveted "piracy is uber bad for sales, we must crack down on it harder ASAP" conclusions.

Also:



smf said:


> _The lengthy document also mentions that the figures for sales of games are not publicly available outside of nation sector organisations or sector watchers, citing our sister site MCV’s reporting of chart data on a weekly basis. So while the studies of games are in the report, *they are generally inconclusive due to the lack of information on overall sales as opposed to physical sales of games which have declined along with other disc-based media*._


If big companies are so eager to prove that piracy is indeed as bad as they claim, you'd think they'd be willing to share data that would make the studies more accurate, no? Or are they worried it'll backfire on them?

Sorry if I'm sounding increasingly obnoxious, but a lot of the stuff you get to support your arguments just makes me more skeptical of the big companies lol


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## udo4ever (Feb 19, 2022)

Arilys said:


> I'm not saying there are no moral problems. Morals are not the same for everyone, you do you, I'll do me.
> 
> I personally have no issue with pirating because I use it basically as game demos: if I do like a game enough, I'll buy it if I can find it on sale at a price that I feel is worth it (I refuse to pay 60€ for a game); if I don't like the game enough then I'll just stop playing the pirated version.
> And since a whole bunch of games I own I only bought _because_ I tried out the pirated version, I feel no guilt about doing it.
> ...


Arylis, you see the light my friend. I don't think smf is thinking through his arguments more profoundly. The comparison to drunk driving hinted at this. In this the data is accessible. In the case of piracy it isn't. To create punitive laws for something that has not met the threshold for statistically significant data should give us pause.

I also did not know that this report was delayed more than 4 years. That is interesting indeed. This does invite further skepticism. Your point is also great when you mention about the lack of more research on this topic. If there is one thing clear, companies like Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft have extensive data on us. Why has there not been further research into piracy and loss of sales using this data? if it is so damaging to these corporations, they would have investigated this much further as it hurts their profit margins.

I think the irony is that we are having a discussion about this issue on a site that brings the hacking community together and yet we still have defenders of a law that seems biased towards these mega corporations and are antithetical to hacking a system we own to run our own code.


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## udo4ever (Feb 19, 2022)

smf said:


> Laws aren't about the will of the citizenry. People are contradictory and often quite awful. Laws often protect minorities from the majority.
> 
> They lobby to get what they want, it doesn't mean that what they are lobbying for is bad. Politicians wouldn't otherwise pass laws that help the poor, if everyone stopped lobbying
> 
> You seem to be arguing poor people deserve to be treated better than rich people.


by the will of the citizenry, I am not claiming that each citizen has a vote. This is not about direct representation. However, in a democracy a fundamental principles is that the citizens have a right to vote. This is fundamental because it gives them  a say on who rules them and the kinds of laws in place to maintain society and its norms. However you define "votes" or "citizenry" be it direct or indirect representation, the bottom line is that this group of citizens have a say on the laws and norms in place through fair debate. This is fundamental to all democracies.

your argument that the will of the citizenry is often contradictory is dangerously dismissive of the very foundations of what makes a democracy. From a legal standpoint, it also has no grounds in support of your argument that these laws are just and fair either...

ok, I am done... on that note, it is a beautiful day out there for the winter season. Democracies are thankfully still standing too, which I am very glad for. =)


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## smf (Feb 19, 2022)

udo4ever said:


> your argument that the will of the citizenry is often contradictory is dangerously dismissive of the very foundations of what makes a democracy.



Tell that to all the white people who thought keeping black people slaves was fine.

Democracy is not a perfect system, it's just less bad than all the other systems. It's been grafted on to a population that are mostly interested in tribalism, so will only think what they've been whipped up to think.

If 51% of people wanted murder to be legalized, then your democracy wouldn't just roll over and let it happen.

Anyway, back to the topic on hand. I don't see how it's in the peoples interest to allow copyright theft, in the same way it's not in the peoples interest to allow theft from stores. You used language to dehumanize the victims of copyright theft & that can be used to dehumanize the victims of all kind of theft.

If you want communism or marxism, so that big companies don't just benefit the few then you should come out and say that rather than say it should be fine to steal from them.


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## udo4ever (Feb 19, 2022)

smf said:


> Tell that to all the white people who thought keeping black people slaves was fine.
> 
> Democracy is not a perfect system, it's just less bad than all the other systems. It's been grafted on to a population that are mostly interested in tribalism, so will only think what they've been whipped up to think.
> 
> ...


@smf, once again, I am seeing signs of someone that is not fully informed on what they are talking about. Please read Hobbs's leviathan, some of Detoqueville's works and other people who have looked at the issue of the "tyranny of the people." This topic has been well-threaded. Nobody has made the claim that democracy is perfect. I certainly have not.  I agree, democracy it is the best system we have, but it is not perfect.

I don't see why we have to argue about the importance of free, rational debate in democracies either. The pre-civil rights laws or Jim Crow laws were the result of the lack of a fair debate in democracies. It was a result of gross violations of the spirit of democracy and the spirit of the law. Your example about slavery in the U.S.A demonstrates the exact opposite of your argument. Debates are essential for fair laws to take place and this is doubly true in democracies.  Come to think of it, all your examples show the apposite for your position...

 Getting back to the point of piracy. I will repeat, the laws surrounding piracy and the sale of these devices that were used against Team E and Bowser, specifically, are the result of a law that has not been *fairly* debated using arguments based on *science*. That is the issue.

Your stance, as you made clear, is that who cares if it is a fair debate about a law that is used to incarcerate people, and who cares if there is no conclusive evidence to back it up. People are fickle and they do not know what they want. Thus, lets leave it to corporations to decide. My claim is that we should care, as we live in a democracy, and these laws are clearly biased towards the protection of corporations which subverts the very foundation of the purpose of laws in a democracy. That is it in a nutshell

Also the well-known trope that any questioning of the government's laws is a sign of communism, once again, makes me question how informed you really are on this subject.  The two have nothing to do with each other. stop using logical fallacies like this.  I wonder if you really are serious with your false equivalencies. The fact that you are on gbatemp suggests that you have some interest in hacking devices to run codes and circumventing anti-piracy measures. I don't understand why you support laws that destroy these abilities... Are we just arguing for the sake of arguing here?


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## Deleted member 460266 (Feb 21, 2022)

The hell sort of site did I sign up to that has several people on page one of this topic demanding that China and Russia Nuke the United States of America? and people clicked like on those posts?  Wow.  Classy.


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## smf (Feb 22, 2022)

udo4ever said:


> Your stance, as you made clear, is that who cares if it is a fair debate about a law that is used to incarcerate people, and who cares if there is no conclusive evidence to back it up.


No, that is not my argument at all.

The majority of people benefit, if people are prevented from stealing. A lot of people will rationalize that it's ok for them to steal, but they should be protected by law. That isn't a workable system though (for what should be obvious reasons).

America are relatively harsh with sentencing. Part of his sentence will apply to money laundering and wire fraud, that they also found him guilty of.

As for fair debate, I'm not preventing you from debating. However you seem to want to prevent me from debating.


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## smf (Feb 22, 2022)

JJ1013 said:


> I mean, these are the ones who stalked Nintendo 3DS modders if I remember correctly, and government didn't give a shit. What else were we expecting?


Surveillance may be more of an apt term, stalking is what you do when you have no legitimate reason.

https://pursuitmag.com/when-does-surveillance-become-stalking/



udo4ever said:


> I think the irony is that we are having a discussion about this issue on a site that brings the hacking community together and yet we still have defenders of a law that seems biased towards these mega corporations and are antithetical to hacking a system we own to run our own code.


The irony is that you wanted an echo chamber that reflects back a legal opinion that benefits you, rather than an actual debate on the legal system and how it benefits everyone. Resorting to attacks on the victim in the case is a sign of a weak argument.

Who exactly has prevented you from hacking a system that you own? Or do you mean you are being prevented from purchasing a product that will hack the system for you?


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## Shinai7047 (Feb 23, 2022)

relauby said:


> assuming he serves his full 3+ year sentence, he will have actually been detained for closer to four and a half years.​
> Source


I want to clarify that since this was a US federal case, there's a good chance that he'll get time served subtracted from his sentence. That's typically how it works if you aren't released on your own recognizance / bond and serve any amount of time in jail without being sentenced. Since he's been there since Oct 2020, that's over a year and 4 months to date. So if he started his sentence this month that would mean he only has a year and 8 months to serve. 

Still bullshit tho.


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## smf (Feb 23, 2022)

Shinai7047 said:


> Since he's been there since Oct 2020, that's over a year and 4 months to date. So if he started his sentence this month that would mean he only has a year and 8 months to serve.
> 
> Still bullshit tho.


His own lawyers suggested 19 months. So he was staying in prison no matter what, just for not quite as long.


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