# About today’s Florida shooting



## WiiUBricker (Feb 15, 2018)

If you haven’t heard by now, today was a devastating day for humanity as there was a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. I think this is a topic that shouldn’t be ignored. Here you can find the archived reddit live feed regarding the events. Suspect is a 19 year old, former student of the school who was expelled for disciplinary reasons. As of writing, the police confirmed 17 deaths and 17 injured. Weapon was an AK-15 rifle.

The FBI has set up a website where you can submit photos, videos and other information about the shooting.

First off, my deepest condolescens to all the victims and their families. I hope everybody at gbatemp is save.

There is a terrifying video somewhere on twitter that someone inside the school was filming while they were hiding inside a classroom. You can hear shots fired and students screaming. This is unreal. You go to school thinking it’s just any other normal day and suddenly you find yourself hiding for your life.

Then there were those insensitive “journalists” who were asking kids escaping from the school for details, like, what the fuck is wrong with you? They are shocked for life, leave them be with your stupid questions. Or those who asked a student who posted a picture of his hiding place on twitter, for permission to use his picture for an article, _while the suspect was still on the loose!_ Sometimes you can’t help but wonder if traffic is the only thing those people care about.

Finally, regarding the suspect, I don’t think that a 19 year old should be able to get a hold of a fricking AK-15 or any gun, like, at all. Insert generic “US gun laws must be changed” comment here.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> If you haven’t heard by now, today was a devastating day for humanity as there was a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. I think this is a topic that shouldn’t be ignored. Here you can find the archived reddit live feed regarding the events. Suspect is a 19 year old, former student of the school who was expelled for disciplinary reasons. As of writing, the police confirmed 17 deaths and 17 injured. Weapon was an AK-15 rifle.
> 
> The FBI has set up a website where you can submit photos, videos and other information about the shooting.
> 
> ...



A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if any of you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Bad parenting is the problem here. Not guns. Anything can be used as a weapon if you're creative enough. Prisoners have killed other prisoners with newspaper believe it or not.


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## WiiUBricker (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.


Of course the person itself is the source issue, but you can’t deny that gun laws make it worse. A crazy person with a gun is more dangerous than a crazy person with a knife. You can’t make laws to prevent crazy persons but you can make laws that prevent crazy persons with a gun.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

He isn't crazy and knew exactly what he was doing. It was premeditated.


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## SonowRaevius (Feb 15, 2018)

-Mass shooting happens
-People say something about it
-Nothing changes
-People forget about it
-Rinse and repeat

Honestly, why even argue about it any more, it's clear that people (both the average joe and those in charge) would rather hundreds of innocent civilians and children die yearly than do anything that might reduce those numbers.


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## RustInPeace (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> First off, my deepest condolescens to all the victims and their families. I hope everybody at gbatemp is save.



I wish I read other posts after yours offering condolences to the people who died, those that were injured, and all the families of the students who attended that school, but no. Can't the arguing about gun laws and motives take a backseat to first showing that you care that many lives were taken and/or forever compromised?


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## DinohScene (Feb 15, 2018)

Last school shooting in Europe was somewhere in the 90s.

I'm sorry but anyone saying "it's not the guns, it's the person" is wrong.
It is the ease of access to guns.
Civilians in Europe aren't allowed to have semi-auto weapons or firearms of any kind (excluding hunting rifles with permits n extensive background checks n what not)
The worst we got on school is perhaps a gun flashing or 1 death by a ghost gun but that barely happens.

It's not the guns, it's not the person it's not the parents.
It's the ease of access to firearms
You don't need a firearm to protect your property, a kitchen knife will also do fine.

And if the person is troubled, send him to an institute or w/e.
School knew about his problems and the school already suspended him for bringing a firearm to said school.
The principal could've prevented this, unfortunately in hindsight.


I know I will receive tons of quotes on this post.
Mostly from disgruntled Americans going "muh gun laws, muh second amendment" n what not.
I don't care, it's me personal opinion on the subject and I will be ignoring any quoted posts.


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## The Real Jdbye (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> He isn't crazy and knew exactly what he was doing. It was premeditated.


Maybe so, but if you plan something like this and actually go through with it, then you have got to be some kind of crazy.


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## Hanafuda (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> Of course the person itself is the source issue, but you can’t deny that gun laws make it worse. A crazy person with a gun is more dangerous than a crazy person with a knife. You can’t make laws to prevent crazy persons but you can make laws that prevent crazy persons with a gun.




We already have that law. A mentally ill or impaired person is prohibited by federal law from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammo. Same goes for felons, drug addicts, illegal aliens, domestic violence offenders. They're all banned from having guns, already.


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## RyanAnayaMc (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.



Agreed. If you take away guns, then that only hinders the ability of the law-abiders to defend themselves. If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. I think that arming the school faculty would be a bigger help to deter or defend against such shootings.


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## Hyborix3 (Feb 15, 2018)

SonowRaevius said:


> -Mass shooting happens
> -People say something about it
> -Nothing changes
> -People forget about it
> ...


You forget to also add people who makes edgy offensive memes with videos, pictures and so on instead of doing anything.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> If you haven’t heard by now, today was a devastating day for humanity as there was a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. I think this is a topic that shouldn’t be ignored. Here you can find the archived reddit live feed regarding the events. Suspect is a 19 year old, former student of the school who was expelled for disciplinary reasons. As of writing, the police confirmed 17 deaths and 17 injured. Weapon was an AK-15 rifle.
> 
> The FBI has set up a website where you can submit photos, videos and other information about the shooting.
> 
> ...


I have a friend who's in college but who's family house is either on the same street as that school or in walking distance at least. I only know one person who actually attends the school (my friend's nieghbhor, I barely know the guy), I'm currently in Washington state, and my family house thst I grew up in is an hour away from the school at least. Still, it felt like it was really close and was super scary. My friend (the one who's family lives near Stoneman) still hasn't heard from all her friends in the school. It's been super scary even if I don't really have much of a relationship with Stoneman, it's still part of my community. This day has not been great


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## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

I have some friends who I think are fairly close to where this happened. It's shit that this happens as often as it does in the US.


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## Joe88 (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Bad parenting is the problem here.


both of the shooters parents are deceased, seems he was adopted


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

Just as a sidenote, semi automatic weapons should be extra banned. We have guns for self defense, these guns are clearly for offense. The shooting wasn't exclusively caused by the fact thst an AR 15 was used but if you ban weapons that aren't for self defense it wouldn't be anywhere near as deadly. Only exception should be a hunting license


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> both of the shooters parents are deceased, seems he was adopted


Adoptive parents are parents to. My theory still stands. Bad parenting.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

RustInPeace said:


> I wish I read other posts after yours offering condolences to the people who died, those that were injured, and all the families of the students who attended that school, but no. Can't the arguing about gun laws and motives take a backseat to first showing that you care that many lives were taken and/or forever compromised?


We talk about tighter gun laws _because_ we care about the deaths, and because we don't want more of them to happen. If we don't talk about the problematically loose restrictions after tragedies like this, they fall into the wayside and never get discussed at all.

Besides, if we wait to discuss stuff like this until there's been a period of calm, then we'll literally NEVER discuss it. It's February 14th and there's ALREADY been 18 school shootings this year

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



RyanAnayaMc said:


> I think that arming the school faculty would be a bigger help to deter or defend against such shootings.


So... just curious, but what happens when school faculty shoots someone?


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## Plstic (Feb 15, 2018)

tighter gun laws are not gonna stop the black market lmao. We just need a better mental health system and tests for children.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

Banning guns isn't going to solve it, stricter regulations, background checks, is what has to be done; the gun laws are too loose here. Too bad the perp wasn't shot in the balls, preventing him from ever having troglodytic subhumans like himself.


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## RustInPeace (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> We talk about tighter gun laws _because_ we care about the deaths, and because we don't want more of them to happen. If we don't talk about the problematically loose restrictions after tragedies like this, they fall into the wayside and never get discussed at all.
> 
> Besides, if we wait to discuss stuff like this until there's been a period of calm, then we'll literally NEVER discuss it. It's February 14th and there's ALREADY been 18 school shootings this year



Okay but at least show the condolences then go into the debate, I expected the jousting over gun control more than people just saying they feel bad for what happened. It just comes off people want to jump into the fight without showing a bit of compassion. Or rather, jump into the fight and just be very inconsiderate about it.

And someone kind of summed up what happened, a rinse and repeat, the debate will go on, nothing will be done about it, similar to the Las Vegas massacre months ago. Coming off that, my opinion on gun control really doesn't matter in the end, I'd rather focus on grieving over those who were personally affected by the tragedy.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

Plstic said:


> tighter gun laws are not gonna stop the black market lmao. We just need a better mental health system and tests for children.


We definitely need both


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## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> We definitely need both



Assuming both sides will stop their bitching and moaning and agree on something for a change.


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## Plstic (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> We definitely need both


Like I said, tighter gun laws will not really affect the black market. There are too many undocumented guns spread around to make a significant impact.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

Plstic said:


> Like I said, tighter gun laws will not really affect the black market. There are too many undocumented guns spread around to make a significant impact.


Fair enough, but not everyone has access to the black market. It'd dumb to expect those guns will disappear if we ban them but there'll be less going around.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Assuming both sides will stop their bitching and moaning and agree on something for a change.


That wont happen because everyone wants their way or nothing at all.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

Plstic said:


> Like I said, tighter gun laws will not really affect the black market. There are too many undocumented guns spread around to make a significant impact.



So what do you suggest, that more and more shootings occur and we sit back twiddling our thumbs and just say "lol okay"?



DrGreed said:


> That wont happen because everyone wants their way or nothing at all.



And why no one should have faith in the government


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

RustInPeace said:


> And someone kind of summed up what happened, a rinse and repeat, the debate will go on, nothing will be done about it, similar to the Las Vegas massacre months ago. Coming off that, my opinion on gun control really doesn't matter in the end, I'd rather focus on grieving over those who were personally affected by the tragedy.


I guess I'm just still optimistic that maybe, just maybe, something will eventually change to prevent this in the future.

I do want to make it clear, though, that I obviously feel for everyone involved in this tragedy. I watched a Snapchat video that a student recorded of the gunner trying to shoot his way through a door into their classroom, and it almost made me sick to my stomach. Seeing something _real _like that carries a lot more weight than actors shooting blanks at each other on TV, or any gun safety demonstration with targets.

That said, though, I don't feel that it's my place to offer condolences to the people affected. I don't personally know anyone who was involved in the shooting, and to mourn or worry over any of them feels like I'm mocking their situation. Instead, I would rather look forward as to how future tragedies like this might be prevented, which is something that no one with the power to change the respective laws seems to want to do.


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## WiiUBricker (Feb 15, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> We already have that law. A mentally ill or impaired person is prohibited by federal law from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammo. Same goes for felons, drug addicts, illegal aliens, domestic violence offenders. They're all banned from having guns, already.


The issue is not whether a mentally ill person is prohibited to purchase guns, it’s the fact that you CAN purchase guns in the first place. Again, lifes could have been spared if that person, for example, had a knife instead of a gun. Those people who died could have defended themselves instead of hopelessly being shot to death. Try to justify your pro-gun view to the killed.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> Fair enough, but not everyone has access to the black market. It'd dumb to expect those guns will disappear if we ban them but there'll be less going around.





Plstic said:


> Like I said, tighter gun laws will not really affect the black market. There are too many undocumented guns spread around to make a significant impact.


That, and, with a gun buyback program and decommissioning possessed guns (crime evidence, confiscated, etc.), you significantly reduce the amount available, period


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> The issue is not whether a mentally ill person is prohibited to purchase guns, it’s the fact that you CAN purchase guns in the first place. Again, lifes could have been spared if that person, for example, had a knife instead of a gun. Those people who died could have defended themselves instead of hopelessly being shot to death. Try to justify your pro-gun view to the killed.


If Teachers were gun trained then they could have defended their class/school.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> If Teachers were gun trained then they could have defended their class/school.


If the shooter was required to pass a training and education course to receive the gun, the shooting most likely wouldn't have happened at all


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## RustInPeace (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> That said, though, I don't feel that it's my place to offer condolences to the people affected. I don't personally know anyone who was involved in the shooting, and to mourn or worry over any of them feels like I'm mocking their situation.



That's mocking to you? In comparison, already on 4chan I've seen a picture of what looks to be a dead body from the incident today and people making light of that. That's mocking, that's also classic 4chan.


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## Hanafuda (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> The issue is not whether a mentally ill person is prohibited to purchase guns, it’s the fact that you CAN purchase guns in the first place. Again, lifes could have been spared if that person, for example, had a knife instead of a gun. Those people who died could have defended themselves instead of hopelessly being shot to death. Try to justify your pro-gun view to the killed.




That's what I thought. You said you wanted laws to keep crazy people from getting guns. What you really meant is you want laws to keep everyone from getting guns.

The only downside to a society like that is that the weaker people in the population ... handicapped, elderly, females, etc., would have no way of defending themselves against criminal thuggery, burglaries, rapists. The strong would always win the fight. Pepper spray ain't gonna cut it against the segment of society who won't give a shit about your gun ban. You think all those murders in Chicago, NY, New Orleans, WashDC, and etc. are committed with _legally_ owned firearms?!?



TotalInsanity4 said:


> If the shooter was required to pass a training and education course to receive the gun, the shooting most likely wouldn't have happened at all



This I agree with 100%. That training and education course should be a mandatory part of the public school curriculum for HS graduation. Everyone should have a basic understanding of firearm safety. I learned from my father and then the Boy Scouts on a proper rifle range, but not everyone gets access to programs like that.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

RustInPeace said:


> That's mocking to you? In comparison, already on 4chan I've seen a picture of what looks to be a dead body from the incident today and people making light of that. That's mocking, that's also classic 4chan.



I hope 4chan's server all get DDOSed, their owners doxxed and then permanently shut down. That place is a hellhole and an abortive part of the internet.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> If the shooter was required to pass a training and education course to receive the gun, the shooting most likely wouldn't have happened at all


Even then the shooter bought a gun from some other guy on some website. As far as I know. But I do agree we should have a course on guns and have a license to carry one.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

RustInPeace said:


> That's mocking to you? In comparison, already on 4chan I've seen a picture of what looks to be a dead body from the incident today and people making light of that. That's mocking, that's also classic 4chan.


I understand what you're saying, but have you, for instance, had a family member (or pet, or friend...) die, and had a bunch of people you barely (or maybe don't even!) know come up to you expressly to say "I'm sorry for your loss"? That's what stuff like this feels like to me, but on a much amplified scale. I feel the need for somber reflection and understanding, but I don't want to publicly say things that are not my place to say

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DrGreed said:


> Even then the shooter bought a gun from some other guy on some website.


Ah, the "gun show loophole." There's another piece of scummy legislature that needs to be fixed five years ago


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## Hanafuda (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ah, the "gun show loophole." There's another piece of scummy legislature that needs to be fixed five years ago




What is this 'loophole?'


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> The issue is not whether a mentally ill person is prohibited to purchase guns, it’s the fact that you CAN purchase guns in the first place. Again, lifes could have been spared if that person, for example, had a knife instead of a gun. Those people who died could have defended themselves instead of hopelessly being shot to death. Try to justify your pro-gun view to the killed.


Try to justify the fact that gun laws don't make the problem better. If someone wants to kill, they will. Talking about taking away a form of defense due to a crudely ignorant stance is fuel for the fire. The issue isn't "guns". Guns don't kill people. People kill people. "b-b-but they'll have to use a different weapon".. They'll still be using a fucking weapon. Even one life would be all it takes to fulfill his twisted desires. He's a mental case that went ignored for way too long. 

Of course the easiest thing to blame is the non-issue. That's all people look at. That'll be the major point. "Why did he have a gun and how did he get it?" Not "How did he become so mentally ill and what can we do to help those in trouble?"


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but have you, for instance, had a family member (or pet, or friend...) die, and had a bunch of people you barely (or maybe don't even!) know come up to you expressly to say "I'm sorry for your loss"? That's what stuff like this feels like to me, but on a much amplified scale. I feel the need for somber reflection and understanding, but I don't want to publicly say things that are not my place to say


I try to put myself in their shoes but I feel no emotion for the victims. It sucks to lose a loved one. My grandpa passed a few years ago and it sucks. But I don't expect a stranger to mourn my grandpa not knowing who he was. Yes the thoughts and prayers are nice but in those times I'd just like to grief for a few days then move on. Then people can talk to me about it.


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## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

Americans who love guns have been brainwashed like some one who blows themselves in the name of peace.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> What is this 'loophole?'


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

Read and mourn for the state of our country


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## Captain_N (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm more then 40 mins north of parkland. I was at work in a college when it happened. I'm wondering if they pick places like schools because of hatred or because its a gun free zone. We are going to here the liberal left use this event as a reason to take your guns. Its really sad that they use events like this for political gain. These events make me want to play GOD and use time travel to prevent this. I guess it would be like the minority report


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Flame said:


> Americans who love guns have been brainwashed like some one who blows themselves in the name of peace.


As an American I don't currently own any guns nor do I love them but I do think you should have a better gun than the enemy.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> As an American I don't currently own any guns nor do I love them but I do think you should have a better gun than the enemy.


How does one know what "the enemy" (good lord, America isn't a war zone) has, though? The streets are NOT the place for an miniaturized arms race


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Flame said:


> Americans who love guns have been brainwashed like some one who blows themselves in the name of peace.


Cute, you think only Americans can "love guns"...


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## RustInPeace (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but have you, for instance, had a family member (or pet, or friend...) die, and had a bunch of people you barely (or maybe don't even!) know come up to you expressly to say "I'm sorry for your loss"? That's what stuff like this feels like to me, but on a much amplified scale. I feel the need for somber reflection and understanding, but I don't want to publicly say things that are not my place to say



The difference is that the shooting has been a publicized event, the airing of grievances does show clear as day that you care about those who were affected. You can be "somber and understanding" about it, but I'd like to at least give one little blurb showing how it affects me, and that doesn't include debating about gun control. A loved one passing is something that can't really be publicized, and sharing that with everyone is not really necessary. So if strangers don't offer condolences, fine, they don't know the situation, how could they? To me it's apples and oranges.


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## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

My condolences to the families and people that were injured or had to lose their life because of some stupid morron.

Seriously, how even can people kill each other? What the hell is going on on their heads before killing someone? How? I cant even kill a friggin fly because im coward fag but yet there are guys who can mass shoot at people just like they were eating pie.The fuck is wrong with people these days. The fuck is wrong with the usa that they do nothing to stop that, at all.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> How does one know what "the enemy" (good lord, America isn't a war zone) has, though? The streets are NOT the place for an miniaturized arms race


You're right, it's not. That's why the sensible people who openly carry don't point their guns willy-fucking-nilly. The street thugs who will slit your throat given the chance are the ones you need to worry about. The ones with unchecked, unlicensed weapons. Good luck trying to take that away.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Cute, you think only Americans can "love guns"...


If we're being real, we're one of the only (THE only??) countries in the """"developed"""" world that has the problem of such a high number of firearms in our country.]

Like, it's unreal


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> If we're being real, we're one of the only (THE only??) countries in the """"developed"""" world that has the problem of such a high number of firearms in our country.]
> 
> Like, it's unreal


You don't think that's an entitlement problem? My MAIN point is the people are the issue. You take away one weapon, there will be another. Until eventually you're left eating food like Neanderthals.


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## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> As an American I don't currently own any guns nor do I love them but I do think you should have a better gun than the enemy.



i have a big dick. but most of my magic happens with my tongue.

make love not war.



Memoir said:


> Cute, you think only Americans can "love guns"...



did i say all?



> Americans who...



not all Americans love guns.


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## Hanafuda (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole
> 
> Read and mourn for the state of our country




I know very well what it is and the whole argument is bullshit. I can sell or gift a gun I own to another resident of my own State, as a private transaction. It's not interstate commerce, or at least so far they haven't ruled that it is, so it's a legal transaction. If the buyer is actually prohibited from possessing firearms and keeps that a secret from the seller, he has committed a crime. If the seller has reason to believe the buyer is prohibited and sells the gun anyway, they've both committed crimes. But the news media makes it out that because of this 'loophole,' you can buy guns over the internet, like mail order. That's false. If you buy a gun from an internet seller, it will be shipped to an FFL dealer where there will be a background check. And most sellers inside the gun shows this 'loophole' is named for are also FFL's, and they conduct background checks.

I'm not opposed to universal background checks but the whole idea that we need that is just evidence that it's people who have changed and are the cause of the mass shooting issue, not guns. My grandfather bought a shotgun from the Sears & Roebuck catalog when he was 14 and they mailed it to his house. No background checks then, and nobody shooting up a school every few months either.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> If we're being real, we're one of the only (THE only??) countries in the """"developed"""" world that has the problem of such a high number of firearms in our country.]
> 
> Like, it's unreal



If I'M being real? I also believe that America and its people are slowly deteriorating and soon nothing will be left but money grubbing, power hungry sociopaths.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Flame said:


> i have a big dick. but most of my magic happens with my tongue.
> 
> make love not war.
> 
> ...


Did I?


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## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if any of you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ng-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221
*Trump Signs Bill Revoking Obama-Era Gun Checks for People With Mental Illnesses*


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

SirBeethoven said:


> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ng-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221
> *Trump Signs Bill Revoking Obama-Era Gun Checks for People With Mental Illnesses*


That does nothing to argue against what I said. Try again.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> How does one know what "the enemy" (good lord, America isn't a war zone) has, though? The streets are NOT the place for an miniaturized arms race


He literally posted his weapons on twitter.


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## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Did I?



"only Americans"... well yeah.


what good is a gun other then to kill another human being?

*to defend yourself. *oh yeah you are the fast draw in the west like every other Jimmy bob.

*not to have a bad government which over uses its power.* lol trump?

*to defend from invasion..*. US has enough nukes to clean the planet of any living thing.


you have been brainwashed by the gun companies which are so strong and powerful in your government.

you have been paid and brought.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> That does nothing to argue against what I said. Try again.


Hmm, well I guess you got me there. But, there seems to be a high correlation between states/countries owning guns and the amount of homocides.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I know very well what it is and the whole argument is bullshit. I can sell or gift a gun I own to another resident of my own State, as a private transaction. It's not interstate commerce, or at least so far they haven't ruled that it is, so it's a legal transaction. If the buyer is actually prohibited from possessing firearms and keeps that a secret from the seller, he has committed a crime. If the seller has reason to believe the buyer is prohibited and sells the gun anyway, they've both committed crimes. But the news media makes it out that because of this 'loophole,' you can buy guns over the internet, like mail order. That's false. If you buy a gun from an internet seller, it will be shipped to an FFL dealer where there will be a background check. And most sellers inside the gun shows this 'loophole' is named for are also FFL's, and they conduct background checks.
> 
> I'm not opposed to universal background checks but the whole idea that we need that is just evidence that it's people who have changed and are the cause of the mass shooting issue, not guns. My grandfather bought a shotgun from the Sears & Roebuck catalog when he was 14 and they mailed it to his house. No background checks then, and nobody shooting up a school every few months either.


At the very least, we need to have a way to tie a serial number to a person at all times. Hell, we already do that with cars and VINs, regardless of whether the transaction is private or public. The ONLY reason we don't have a database of gun owners (not even a public one, I'm talking about something a law enforcement agency can use) is because the NRA has lobbied so hard to make sure that all documentation is paper only, and private sales so far have no requirement of filing the change of ownership

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DrGreed said:


> He literally posted his weapons on twitter.


I'm talking broad context here


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## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

Funny thing is that this kind of stuff is heard more often coming from the US rather than the rest of america... then, who has the fault? If it were only the fault of mailicious people then we would be hearing about mass shooting ocurring on south america for example more often, but do we? No, not really.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm talking broad context here



Trust me if that school was armed well, he'd be less likely to shoot it up. Unless he had a death wish.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Trust me if that school was armed well, he'd be less likely to shoot it up. Unless he had a death wish.


But... should that be a requirement for a school these days?... Be armed to the teeth?

And again, I ask; what happens when
a) an innocent person shoots at the shooter, and no one knows where the initial shot came from and it turns into an all-out firefight, or
b) one of the faculty that's armed with an issued gun goes off the wall and starts shooting, themselves?


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

Welp, "thoughts and prayers" and all that since we're never actually going to _do_ anything about mass shootings.


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## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Trust me if that school was armed well, he'd be less likely to shoot it up. Unless he had a death wish.



so this person must of thought let me kill a dozen people and run to Canada or Mexico and live like a leader team rocket. no chance of me getting caught or getting shot by the police.

nice logic.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Welp, "thoughts and prayers" and all that since we're never actually going to _do_ anything about mass shootings.


Unfortunately, this is true.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Flame said:


> so this person must of thought let me kill a dozen people and run to Canada or Mexico and live like a leader of team rocket boss. no chance of me getting caught or getting shot by the police.
> 
> nice logic.


You pulled THAT from his statement? Nice imagination..


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> But... should that be a requirement for a school these days?... Be armed to the teeth?
> 
> And again, I ask; what happens when
> a) an innocent person shoots at the shooter, and no one knows where the initial shot came from and it turns into an all-out firefight, or
> b) one of the faculty that's armed with an issued gun goes off the wall and starts shooting, themselves?


Cameras would also be necessary. But I don't think people who are trained the right way would be trigger happy with out investigating the situation first. This goes back full circle though. Mental tests and training.


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## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Trust me if that school was armed well, he'd be less likely to shoot it up. Unless he had a death wish.


Well do we know if the school had any cops or bad behaivor deference systems? Or stuff like this? https://www.vox.com/2016/2/15/10981274/crime-violence-policies-guns


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> But... should that be a requirement for a school these days?... Be armed to the teeth?
> 
> And again, I ask; what happens when
> a) an innocent person shoots at the shooter, and no one knows where the initial shot came from and it turns into an all-out firefight, or
> b) one of the faculty that's armed with an issued gun goes off the wall and starts shooting, themselves?



Kind of a catch 22. The school doesn't need to be "armed"... Just needs a way to properly defend from these kinds of attacks. It's not something that can wholly be prevented. Unfortunately...


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Unfortunately, this is true.


The breaking point should have been Sandy Hook, but there are still morons out there claiming that was a hoax/conspiracy simply because they can't wrap their heads around the mass slaughter of children truly happening.  It's only going to get more common as we ignore the mental health crisis in this country and leave the status of fully automatic weapons as easily accessible for anyone in the US.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Flame said:


> so this person must of thought let me kill a dozen people and run to Canada or Mexico and live like a leader team rocket. no chance of me getting caught or getting shot by the police.
> 
> nice logic.


Says the guy posing as an asshole. Don't quote me anymore unless you have something mildly intelligent to say or you wont get anymore replies from me. Thank you.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The breaking point should have been Sandy Hook, but there are still morons out there claiming that was a hoax/conspiracy simply because they can't wrap their heads around the mass slaughter of children truly happening.  It's only going to get more common as we ignore the mental health crisis in this country and leave the status of fully automatic weapons as easily accessible for anyone in the US.


See, I don't get that. Real people died. Real children died.. Yet somehow its a conspiracy? It's a sad state we're in. Not too late to get out I hope.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

SirBeethoven said:


> Well do we know if the school had any cops or bad behaivor deference systems? Or stuff like this? https://www.vox.com/2016/2/15/10981274/crime-violence-policies-guns


Again proper training and proper mental tests. I don't trust any loser with a gun. My self included.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> See, I don't get that. Real people died. Real children died.. Yet somehow its a conspiracy? It's a sad state we're in. Not too late to get out I hope.


Yeah, lots of people just insist these are made up stories. Alex Jones will almost surely explain tomorrow how it was all a ruse, and his supporters will eat it up.


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## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Unfortunately, this is true.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Dude, stop getting mad and pulling evidence out of nowhere

More guns are not going to reduce homocides my man

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/t...ore-guns-won-t-prevent-mass-shootings-n818126

According to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, 93 people die a day from gun violence, including 32 murders and 58 suicides. A studyout of Stanford Law School analyzed crime data from 1977 to 2014 and found that areas with more relaxed “right-to-carry” gun laws saw higher rates of violent crime.

“If more guns made America safer, we’d be an awfully safe place,” said University of California Los Angeles law professor Adam Winkler, author of "Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America."


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## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> You pulled THAT from his statement? Nice imagination..



_your talking about my imagination?_

said the person who thinks guns will make the world a better place.




DrGreed said:


> Says the guy posing as an asshole. Don't quote me anymore unless you have something mildly intelligent to say or you wont get anymore replies from me. Thank you.



okay snowflake.

here's a fun fact for you snowflake. a snowflake is more likely to kill you in the UK then a gun.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Stahpppppppp


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm not saying more guns is safe but I do think if they were present in some way then it will be less likely to happen.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Again proper training and proper mental tests. I don't trust any loser with a gun. My self included.


That's kinda the problem though, there are already like 20 guns on the street for every loser in America.  The "good guy with a gun" theory has failed us probably a thousand times over the last decade.  Escalation as a response just moves society backwards to the Wild West, and shooting casualties rise instead of falling.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Cameras would also be necessary.


Yeah... I wish I could tell you that that would work, but http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5045479/Walmart-shoppers-drew-handguns-shooting.html


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I'm not saying more guns is safe but I do think if they were present in some way then it will be less likely to happen.


In this case, there actually were guns present, since the school has a regular police officer on duty dsily. For some reason, they didn't stop the student that they had previously expelled cuz they thought he might bring a gun to school. 

Having guns on the scene in the hands of the good guys will work sometimes, this is unfortunately not one of those times.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Wait wait wait. You're putting words in my mouth now? Now where in ANY of my posts did I say more guns are better? Oh, right, I didn't. I also only stated a fact about human nature. Good job on getting bent out of shape on that though.


Oh shoot, get it? Pun intended. Mistakened you for another


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> That's kinda the problem though, there are already like 20 guns on the street for every loser in America.  The "good guy with a gun" theory has failed us probably a thousand times over the last decade.  Escalation as a response just moves society backwards to the Wild West, and shooting casualties rise instead of falling.


We've already regressed so far. Why not go back to the days where issues were sorted physically... I kid, I kid.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



SirBeethoven said:


> Oh shoot, get it? Pun intended. Mistakened you for another


Oh, my bad. Haha. Sorry!


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

SirBeethoven said:


> Hmm, well I guess you got me there. But, there seems to be a high correlation between states/countries owning guns and the amount of homocides.
> View attachment 114281View attachment 114282


Still @Memoir my previous point stands. I do not believe it’s just the “people’s” fault.


----------



## WiiUBricker (Feb 15, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> The only downside to a society like that is that the weaker people in the population ... handicapped, elderly, females, etc., would have no way of defending themselves against criminal thuggery, burglaries, rapists.


There are non-deadly weapons like tasers. You don’t have to resort to a killing machine every time you need to defend yourself. Where is this society headed if it’s always kill or be killed? Plus those people who own guns have responsibility to not enable access to the gun to any other person. It wouldn’t shock me if the suspect stole his gun from his father.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

SirBeethoven said:


> Still @Memoir my point stands. I do not believe it’s just the “people’s” fault.



It's a conscious choice. You can't blame the tool for the user. Doesn't make sense.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> It's a conscious choice. You can't blame the tool for the user. Doesn't make sense.


I understand your point philosophically, but where’s your evidence? Are guns not the problem?


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> That's kinda the problem though, there are already like 20 guns on the street for every loser in America.  The "good guy with a gun" theory has failed us probably a thousand times over the last decade.  Escalation as a response just moves society backwards to the Wild West.


I'm just talking about schools here. There are efforts to control the black markets for guns but criminals are always finding other ways. This whole arguement is pointless because the "what ifs" people keep bringing up. There is no perfect way to keep guns away from people willing to use them but if we just try and give schools some good security and then work out the kinks from there then we could flesh it out.


----------



## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> It's a conscious choice. You can't blame the tool for the user. Doesn't make sense.


You can't blame the tool for the user but the tool can make things easier for the user. If this shooter had access to a tank, it wouldn't hsve been the tank's fault that he's a murderer. However, remove the tank from the equation and less people die. Same with the AR-15 he used


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

SirBeethoven said:


> I understand your point philosophically, but where’s your evidence? Are guns not the problem?



Refer to prior comments. If guns didn't exist we'd have other weapons. Do you think we always fought with a firearm? We are a murderous breed, that evidence is everywhere. A gun isn't the problem.


----------



## WiiUBricker (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Try to justify the fact that gun laws don't make the problem better. If someone wants to kill, they will. Talking about taking away a form of defense due to a crudely ignorant stance is fuel for the fire. The issue isn't "guns". Guns don't kill people. People kill people. "b-b-but they'll have to use a different weapon".. They'll still be using a fucking weapon. Even one life would be all it takes to fulfill his twisted desires. He's a mental case that went ignored for way too long.
> 
> Of course the easiest thing to blame is the non-issue. That's all people look at. That'll be the major point. "Why did he have a gun and how did he get it?" Not "How did he become so mentally ill and what can we do to help those in trouble?"


Then what do you prefer, being assaulted by someone with a gun or a knife? How are your chances of surviving if you’re assaulted by someone with a gun versus a knife?


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## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Refer to prior comments. If guns didn't exist we'd have other weapons. Do you think we always fought with a firearm?



Guns makes it millions times easier to go on a mass killing tho.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I'm just talking about schools here. There are efforts to control the black markets for guns but criminals are always finding other ways. This whole arguement is pointless because the "what ifs" people keep bringing up. There is no perfect way to keep guns away from people willing to use them but if we just try and give schools some good security and then work out the kinks from there then we could flesh it out.


The school has security, good security in fact. It's in a gated community and has an active duty cop whenever it's open. Good security isn't a catch all, as seen in this case.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> It's a conscious choice. You can't blame the tool for the user. Doesn't make sense.


You can't blame the tool, that much is obvious, but you can reduce the amount of potential damage done by limiting the tool available


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Flame said:


> Guns makes it millions times easier to go on a mass killing tho.


So do bombs... And torches... And vehicles... We can go on all day. My point still stands.


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> The school has security, good security in fact. It's in a gated community and has an active duty cop whenever it's open. Good security isn't a catch all, as seen in this case.


It's not good security if they let a teenager with a gun kill 17 other students.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You can't blame the tool, that much is obvious, but you can reduce the amount of potential damage done by limiting the tool available


Refer to comment below yours.

The number could have been much worse had he driven a car into the kids as they left school. Think logically.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Refer to prior comments. If guns didn't exist we'd have other weapons. Do you think we always fought with a firearm? We are a murderous breed, that evidence is everywhere. A gun isn't the problem.


Hmm, this is from 2013, probably death has gone up - but it seems that more deaths occur from gun. It also seems much easier to Kill with a semi automatic.

About 5,000 for other weapons and 12,000 for guns. I imagine the toll is somewhat similar today


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

SirBeethoven said:


> Hmm, this is from 2013, probably death has gone up - but it seems that more deaths occur from gun. It also seems much easier to Kill with a semi automatic
> View attachment 114283



You're attached to the "gun". You refuse to see the big picture. Even if it didn't exist, other weapons do.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I'm just talking about schools here. There are efforts to control the black markets for guns but criminals are always finding other ways. This whole arguement is pointless because the "what ifs" people keep bringing up. There is no perfect way to keep guns away from people willing to use them but if we just try and give schools some good security and then work out the kinks from there then we could flesh it out.


All you're doing is introducing more problematic variables, though.  Yeah, a trained officer might be carrying the gun, but even a trained officer can be surprised and have his gun taken from him.  The psychological effects on students is another discussion, but I don't think they're generally positive effects.  These are just a couple of the reasons a lot of schools would prefer to not be forced to arm themselves.  Schools also don't exist inside a vacuum; if public schools are forced to arm themselves that will affect other businesses and the decisions they make as well.  I'd rather not skip ahead to the dystopian police state quite yet.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> You're attached to the "gun". You refuse to see the big picture. Even if it didn't exist, other weapons do.


What do you mean? I just showed you both the non gun and gun death tolls. What is the big picture?


----------



## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> It's not good security if they let a teenager with a gun kill 17 other students.


It wasn't good security in practice, that's the problem with "good security" in general. If you add too much of it you restrict the school, and if you have a reasonable degree like Stoneman does you can't know for certain it'll be up to the challenge. Good security in general isn't the solution, we need comprehensive mental health reform and ways to restrict these kids' access to guns. 

All 3 of those are easier said than done, that's why you do all 3 and hope one of them sticks.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

SirBeethoven said:


> What do you mean? I just showed you both the non gun and gun death tolls. What is the big picture?



We've been fighting each other for much, MUCH longer than firearms have been around. The worst part is that we DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NUMBERS WOULD BE IF GUNS DIDN'T EXIST. You can throw numbers around all day. It doesn't change what I'm saying. If someone wants to kill? They WILL. Even ONE DEATH will be enough for them.


----------



## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> So do bombs... And torches... And vehicles... We can go on all day. My point still stands.



do all Americans have the skills to make a bomb. torches.... the fuck. vehicles is a tricky one. but gun is still a million times more easy to kill then with a vehicle.

but vehicles have soo much advantages other then to kill a human being. like take one person from A to B

guns have one point one point only to kill.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Flame said:


> do all Americans have the skills to make a bomb. torches.... the fuck. vehicles is a tricky one. but gun is still a million times more easy to kill then with a vehicle.
> 
> but vehicles have soo much advantages other then to kill a human being. like take one person from A to B
> 
> guns have one point one point only to kill.


I don't know, one could rack up high double digits with a nice truck. Just saying.

Tranquilizer guns and water guns say hi. ;p


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> The worst part is that we DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NUMBERS WOULD BE IF GUNS DIDN'T EXIST.


I know one way to find out


Flame said:


> vehicles is a tricky one.


Vehicles are regulated. We know who owns which one, and the person driving has to pass a competency test to get their license.


----------



## Flame (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> I don't know, one could rack up high double digits with a nice truck. Just saying.



the only people who use trucks are terrorist. you need that super fucked up mind set to run over people with a vehicle.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I know one way to find out
> 
> Vehicles are regulated. We know who owns which one, and the person driving has to pass a competency test to get their license.



Alter reality?


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> You're attached to the "gun". You refuse to see the big picture. Even if it didn't exist, other weapons do.


We should stop replying to comments like this. Otherwise we're going in circles and I'm literally dizzy.


Xzi said:


> All you're doing is introducing more problematic variables, though.  Yeah, a trained officer might be carrying the gun, but even a trained officer can be surprised and have his gun taken from him.  The psychological effects on students is another discussion, but I don't think they're generally positive effects.  These are just a couple of the reasons a lot of schools would prefer to not be forced to arm themselves.  Schools also don't exist inside a vacuum; if public schools are forced to arm themselves that will affect other businesses and the decisions they make as well.  I'd rather not skip ahead to the dystopian police state quite yet.


PROPERLY TRAINED What part of that do I have to explain? I work security, I have to be full alert and know every little thing that goes on around me. Now I'm not armed security I haven't taken the classes for it yet but still I know somewhat of what I'm talking about. I'm trained to investigate, make my presents known, alternate my routine through the night, not make friends with those around you, and look impressive. It's not 100% perfect but it works most of the time. For the off chance I am caught by surprise, I try to make sure I'm on camera just encase.


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## CMDreamer (Feb 15, 2018)

Just to let them know I'm here, and that they're on my toughts and prayings... I've got family all over US, hope they're OK.

I've got my opinion on the matter, but will keep it for myself...

God bless you all...


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

CMDreamer said:


> Just to let them know I'm here, and that they're on my toughts and prayings... I've got family all over US, hope they're OK.
> 
> I've got my opinion on the matter, but will keep it for myself...
> 
> God bless you all...


God bless you too


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> We should stop replying to comments like this. Otherwise we're going in circles and I'm literally dizzy.
> 
> PROPERLY TRAINED What part of that do I have to explain? I work security, I have to be full alert and know every little thing that goes on around me. Now I'm not armed security I haven't taken the classes for it yet but still I know somewhat of what I'm talking about. I'm trained to investigate, make my presents known, alternate my routine through the night, not make friends with those around you, and look impressive. It's not 100% perfect but it works most of the time. For the off chance I am caught by surprise, I try to make sure I'm on camera just encase.


I'm only here because I can actually vent. I've hit the point where it's whatever anymore.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

The availability of guns anywhere in the US is unmatched by any other country.  This definitely has an effect on the shooting statistics.  I wouldn't say it is the biggest culprit, though.  That's American culture.  We're blissfully ignorant of how inherently violent we can be.  We've been a rowdy bunch of assholes ever since we said "fuck yo tea" and launched the Revolutionary War.  The problem is lack of self-awareness and willpower to overcome our baser selves.



DrGreed said:


> PROPERLY TRAINED What part of that do I have to explain? I work security, I have to be full alert and know every little thing that goes on around me. Now I'm not armed security I haven't taken the classes for it yet but still I know somewhat of what I'm talking about. I'm trained to investigate, make my presents known, alternate my routine through the night, not make friends with those around you, and look impressive. It's not 100% perfect but it works most of the time. For the off chance I am caught by surprise, I try to make sure I'm on camera just encase.


Yeah I've worked security, but schools are a different beast entirely.  You'd be lucky to have one officer for every 300-500 students.  A lot can go wrong.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> We've been fighting each other for much, MUCH longer than firearms have been around. The worst part is that we DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NUMBERS WOULD BE IF GUNS DIDN'T EXIST. You can throw numbers around all day. It doesn't change what I'm saying. If someone wants to kill? They WILL. Even ONE DEATH will be enough for them.


Hmm... well, decreased death rate would be nice right?

From a Stanford Study:
A Stanford Law School professor, John Donohue, and his team analyzed crime data from 1977 to 2014 and didn’t find evidence that areas where more Americans carry guns enjoy enhanced public safety or less crime. On the contrary, the researchers discovered that states that have enacted so-called right-to-carry (RTC) concealed handgun laws have experienced _higher_ rates of violent crime than states that did not adopt those laws.

From Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence‘s 2013 Study, more gun restrictions accounted for lower deaths.

 

In conclusion, gun deaths account for the most deaths. If we proposed getting rid of the gun entirely, like I’m assuming you’re suggesting, I’m guessing that it would be still harder to kill as many people. Also, states without guns see less violent crimes - so maybe knives wouldn’t be as destructive as guns in this “proposed instance”

Although I know that I cannot change your mind, I’m glad we’re discussing this - maybe we can both learn a thing or two


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The availability of guns anywhere in the US is unmatched by any other country.  This definitely has an effect on the shooting statistics.  I wouldn't say it is the biggest culprit, though.  That's American culture.  We're blissfully ignorant of how inherently violent we can be.  We've been a rowdy bunch of assholes ever since we said "fuck yo tea" and launched the Revolutionary War.  The problem is lack of self-awareness and willpower to overcome our baser selves.
> 
> 
> Yeah I've worked security, but schools are a different beast entirely.  You'd be lucky to have one officer for every 300-500 students.  A lot can go wrong.


... But I love tea! Damn taxes... Wait what year is it?


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

The kid was able walk into a school with a AK 15 not easy to hide. If security/police were present that wouldn't have a happened.

It's way to late to "get rid of guns" because of people willing to smuggle and sell them.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> The kid was able walk into a school with a AK 15 not easy to hide. If security/police were present that wouldn't have a happened.


They were present. I used to live nearby, they're there every day. Still happened. 

You can never know for sure if your security is solid till its too late.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> The kid was able walk into a school with a AK 15 not easy to hide. If security/police were present that wouldn't have a happened.


There's no way to know what would have happened.  Assuming he already had his weapon drawn, security might not have been quick enough to keep from getting shot.  Or a bunch of kids get shot in the shootout between the gunman and security anyway.

When a building is on fire, you don't try to put it out with gasoline.  That's essentially what you're attempting when you fight deadly force with deadly force.  Chances are that nobody "wins" in that situation.


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## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> They were present. I used to live nearby, they're there every day. Still happened.
> 
> You can never know for sure if your security is solid till its too late.


I thought you said that they had good security? Also I commented on good security a few pages ago. Stop going in circles. It's getting us no where.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> Of course the person itself is the source issue, but you can’t deny that gun laws make it worse. A crazy person with a gun is more dangerous than a crazy person with a knife. You can’t make laws to prevent crazy persons but you can make laws that prevent crazy persons with a gun.


We have laws to prevent crazy people from getting guns. There are background checks to buy a gun and you have to take classes and get a license to carry one. History of psychological issues is looked for in the background check. The point is, if guns are completely outlawed, only criminals and psychopaths will have them.


----------



## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I thought you said that they had good security? Also I commented on good security a few pages ago. Stop going in circles. It's getting us no where.


They do have good security, or so it seemed, they have a police officer there every day and they're in a gated community. I don't know what better security you want. 

My point is that seemingly good security isn't the gold star from mario kart, it doesn't make you immune to harm. To reduce shooting violence you need other things as well, namely mental health reform and restrictions on guns that aren't for self defense.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> They do have good security, or so it seemed, they have a police officer there every day and they're in a gated community. I don't know what better security you want.
> 
> My point is that seemingly good security isn't the gold star from mario kart, it doesn't make you immune to harm. To reduce shooting violence you need other things as well, namely mental health reform and restrictions on guns that aren't for self defense.


Its a weird subject. Mentality.


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> There's no way to know what would have happened.  Assuming he already had his weapon drawn, security might not have been quick enough to keep from getting shot.  Or a bunch of kids get shot in the shootout between the gunman and security anyway.


Again. Full alert. Security Cameras. Watching said cameras. See some kid with a gun walking toward school. Investigate. Draw your weapon. Demand he drop his weapon and get on the ground. If he doesn't listen, shoot him for not listening. 1 dead attempted murderer.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> So what do you suggest, that more and more shootings occur and we sit back twiddling our thumbs and just say "lol okay"?


Well, let's ban airplanes because terrorists like to crash them, maybe ban trucks too. We could ban backpacks because they like to carry bombs in them.


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> They do have good security, or so it seemed, they have a police officer there every day and they're in a gated community. I don't know what better security you want.
> 
> My point is that seemingly good security isn't the gold star from mario kart, it doesn't make you immune to harm. To reduce shooting violence you need other things as well, namely mental health reform and restrictions on guns that aren't for self defense.


I'm going to stop replying to you after this. Go back and read my past comments. I touched base on all of this.


----------



## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Its a weird subject. Mentality.


It's definitely a weird subject, but we should still aim for better mental health conditions. No point in not trying i guess.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Again. Full alert. Security Cameras. Watching said cameras. See some kid with a gun walking toward school. Investigate. Draw your weapon. Demand he drop his weapon and get on the ground. If he doesn't listen, shoot him for not listening. 1 dead attempted murderer.


To be fair, that's assuming the cop/guard doesn't drop first.


----------



## DRAGONBALLVINTAGE (Feb 15, 2018)

DinohScene said:


> Last school shooting in Europe was somewhere in the 90s.
> 
> I'm sorry but anyone saying "it's not the guns, it's the person" is wrong.
> It is the ease of access to guns.
> ...


In my redneck voice
I as a proud american I am disgusted by your "comment" about muh gun I think you brits a.kk.k city slickers should keep off dis here form before I sick my hound on ya


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> It's definitely a weird subject, but we should still aim for better mental health conditions. No point in not trying i guess.


See, where would we start... We live in a day and age where we coddle everybody and nurture some weird nature in children.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Well, let's ban airplanes because terrorists like to crash them, maybe ban trucks too. We could ban backpacks because they like to carry bombs in them.


Jesus no. But a couple more restrictions/burdens to pass couldn’t hurt. Could be the point of whether or not another mass shooting occurs


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> To be fair, that's assuming the cop/guard doesn't drop first.


Properly trained possible ex military would have a faster reaction time than a kid with a gun he's never shot before.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Well, let's ban airplanes because terrorists like to crash them


We banned box cutters on commercial flights because that's what the 9/11 extremists used to take control of them.
The TSA now checks everyone's shoes because one person hid a bomb in them

We DO regulate these things, that's not nearly as outlandish as you make it out to be


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

The thing that bothers me is that it's an "American problem". What to do, what to do...


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Again. Full alert. Security Cameras. Watching said cameras. See some kid with a gun walking toward school. Investigate. Draw your weapon. Demand he drop his weapon and get on the ground. If he doesn't listen, shoot him for not listening. 1 dead attempted murderer.


This happens cleanly like 1/1000 times.  The kid's already approaching with his gun drawn and murderous intent.

Also, he's 19, not really a kid.


WeedZ said:


> We have laws to prevent crazy people from getting guns.


Well...we did.  Trump is repealing weapon sales regulations as fast as he possibly can.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...aad7d6-a86b-11e7-8ed2-c7114e6ac460_story.html


----------



## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I'm going to stop replying to you after this. Go back and read my past comments. I touched base on all of this.


If you find me annyoing by all means stop replying to me, I won't take offense. 

What I'm trying to say is I have read all your past comments, in fact I just went and read them all again. You seem not to favor restrictions on non self defense weapons because you can't fully control the flow of the. You're right that you cant, but every bit you stop helps. Does the school also need better security? Maybe. But where I disagree with you is that it needs more in addition to that. 

Again, I'm not trying to tease you or ignore points you make or anything. I respect you, but I stand by the points I made. If you don't care to interact with them don't, I won't take offense.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

[QUOT


TotalInsanity4 said:


> We banned box cutters on commercial flights because that's what the 9/11 extremists used to take control of them.
> The TSA now checks everyone's shoes because one person hid a bomb in them
> 
> We DO regulate these things, that's not nearly as outlandish as you make it out to be


There was never a time that you could blades/weapons on a plane.


----------



## dAVID_ (Feb 15, 2018)

It's that time of the year again!
It seems like there has to be some kind of obligatory school shooting on a per-year basis.
I personally think it's a people problem.
The gun is just a firearm. It isn't bad by itself. The problem begins when firearm regulations
allow people with fucked up minds access them easily. You should be able to need years of testing to
get a firearm, and it's not like pepper-spray doesn't exist.
Though unless you're an archer and you happen to have a concealed bow and quiver with you
at all times, ranged defense will be an issue.


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> This happens cleanly like 1/1000 times.  The kid's already approaching with his gun drawn and murderous intent.


I'm sure if a kid was walking down a road with his gun already pointed ready to shot that someone would have seen him and called the police and the school. Like how would he go unseen?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> There was never a time that you could blades/weapons on a plane.


http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a111102boxcutters

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



dAVID_ said:


> It's that time of the year again!
> It seems like there has to be some kind of obligatory school shooting on a per-year basis.
> I personally think it's a people problem.
> The gun is just a firearm. It isn't bad by itself. The problem begins when firearm regulations
> ...


It definitely h'ain't per-year anymore in the US, I'm afraid


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I'm sure if a kid was walking down a road with his gun already pointed ready to shot that someone would have seen him and called the police and the school. Like how would he go unseen?


I mean he probably didn't draw it until he was close to the school or on school grounds already.  Being 19 he likely just drove and had the weapon in his trunk or covered in his car.


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> The thing that bothers me is that it's an "American problem". What to do, what to do...





DeslotlCL said:


> Funny thing is that this kind of stuff is heard more often coming from the US rather than the rest of america... then, who has the fault? If it were only the fault of mailicious people then we would be hearing about mass shooting ocurring on south america for example more often, but do we? No, not really.


----------



## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> [QUOT
> 
> There was never a time that you could blades/weapons on a plane.


You actually used to be able to buy swiss army knives and take them on board the plane. I happen to know that because after they were banned on planes they almost went out of business. 

http://international.sueddeutsche.de/post/56080571493/how-the-swiss-army-knife-survived-911


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a111102boxcutters
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boxcutters-werent-allowed-pre-9-11/

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ThisIsDaAccount said:


> You actually used to be able to buy swiss army knives and take them on board the plane. I happen to know that because after they were banned on planes they almost went out of business.
> 
> http://international.sueddeutsche.de/post/56080571493/how-the-swiss-army-knife-survived-911


In what country?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boxcutters-werent-allowed-pre-9-11/


I saw that, but what that link says is that the airline didn't allow it according to policy. The US government actually made it ILLEGAL in November of 2002, along with pepper spray


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> If you find me annyoing by all means stop replying to me, I won't take offense.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is I have read all your past comments, in fact I just went and read them all again. You seem not to favor restrictions on non self defense weapons because you can't fully control the flow of the. You're right that you cant, but every bit you stop helps. Does the school also need better security? Maybe. But where I disagree with you is that it needs more in addition to that.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to tease you or ignore points you make or anything. I respect you, but I stand by the points I made. If you don't care to interact with them don't, I won't take offense.



Obviously I do favor some restrictions. But it doesn't matter what the restrictions are people will find a way around it. Just like gun traffic. That's why I'm focused on taking possible protection practices for schools.


----------



## WiiUBricker (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> If someone wants to kill? They WILL. Even ONE DEATH will be enough for them.


What you seem to constantly fail to grasp in this particular argument is the simple logic that it’s not about someone’s intend to kill, it’s about the efficiency and amount of deaths such person can cause with a highly potent and convenient weapon like a gun. Sure before guns, people fought themselves with sticks, stones or whatever you were thinking, but all of those pale in comparison to guns. Since you conveniently ignored my last question, I’ll ask you again:



WiiUBricker said:


> Then what do you prefer, being assaulted by someone with a gun or a knife? How are your chances of surviving if you’re assaulted by someone with a gun versus a knife?


----------



## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Obviously I do favor some restrictions. But it doesn't matter what the restrictions are people will find a way around it. Just like gun traffic. That's why I'm focused on taking possible protection practices for schools.


I favor as much protection for school as well, as long as it doesn't disrupt the school environment. and you're right that some people will find ways around it, they always do. Possible restrictions for me aren't about making sure no one ever gets non self defense guns, theyre about letting as few people as possible access them. 

As long as we tackle the issue from different angles, we can make our students safer.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> What you seem to constantly fail to grasp in this particular argument is the simple logic that it’s not about someone’s intend to kill, it’s about the efficiency and amount of deaths such person can cause with a highly potent and convenient weapon like a gun. Sure before guns, people fought themselves with sticks, stones or whatever you were thinking, but all of those pale in comparison to guns. Since you conveniently ignored my last question, I’ll ask you again:


Slim. Proper defense training would definitely help in either case. However, I still run a risk of injury, or worse. Pick your poison, I guess?


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I saw that, but what that link says is that the airline didn't allow it according to policy. The US government actually made it ILLEGAL in November of 2002, along with pepper spray


For all purposes it's the same thing. You couldn't take them onboard. Of course they made a law after they _smuggled_ some on. You have to appease the masses (the same that want gun control). But there's a limit to how far the government will go. They'll make themselves look like they are taking action when nothing really changes.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> For all purposes it's the same thing. You couldn't take them onboard. Of course they made a law after they _smuggled_ some on. You have to appease the masses (the same that want gun control). But there's a limit to how far the government will go. They'll make themselves look like they are taking action when nothing really changes.


TSA couldn't do anything at wide-spread scale unless the airline asked them to by policy, and even then policy allows things to slip through the cracks without nearly as much consequence as violating a federal offence would


----------



## Chary (Feb 15, 2018)

This is incredibly sad to hear. I wish the best possible for the parents of the victims. What a crappy thing to happen.



DinohScene said:


> You don't need a firearm to protect your property, a kitchen knife will also do fine.


I don't want to get into any weapon arguments here, so this will likely be my only post, but this made me cringe a bit. Say there are no weapons at all, in a given area, that all you can use are knives to fight and protect with. Even then, if you're a weaker or smaller person than the intruder, you're pretty hardcore screwed. _IF _there was someone illegally entering my property, I'd rather have an effective way to defend myself and take down the attacker, not charge in with a knife, only to get overpowered and stabbed to death. It's going to take multiple stab wounds to bring a person full of adrenaline down, while a bullet will usually incapacitate. And even if gun vs gun still has a chance of the defender being shot, they still have a very higher chance to keep themselves alive, against a stronger opponent. This is _why _most people will defend guns to the death.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

dAVID_ said:


> It's that time of the year again!
> It seems like there has to be some kind of obligatory school shooting on a per-year basis.
> I personally think it's a people problem.
> The gun is just a firearm. It isn't bad by itself. *The problem begins when firearm regulations
> ...


Here’s where I agree. I disagree that it’s as simple as a “people” problem. That is undermining it - instead I believe that it is the laws and regulations around guns that make them dangerous (like you kind of said - just the people problem part I disagree with)


----------



## WiiUBricker (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Slim. Proper defense training would definitely help in either case. However, I still run a risk of injury, or worse. Pick your poison, I guess?


Dude, that is nothing but an excuse to weasel your way out. I hope that you don’t actually believe that someone has a chance against an AK-15 only with defense training..


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Chary said:


> This is incredibly sad to hear. I wish the best possible for the parents of the victims. What a crappy thing to happen.
> 
> 
> I don't want to get into any weapon arguments here, so this will likely be my only post, but this made me cringe a bit. Say there are no weapons at all, in a given area, that all you can use are knives to fight and protect with. Even then, if you're a weaker or smaller person than the intruder, you're pretty hardcore screwed. _IF _there was someone illegally entering my property, I'd rather have an effective way to defend myself and take down the attacker, not charge in with a knife, only to get overpowered and stabbed to death. It's going to take multiple stab wounds to bring a person full of adrenaline down, while a bullet will usually incapacitate. And even if gun vs gun still has a chance of the defender being shot, they still have a very higher chance to keep themselves alive, against a stronger opponent. This is _why _most people will defend guns to the death.


If we're assuming no weapons on both sides, with a few self-defense classes you could take down an intruder (even if you're weaker) with a swift kick to the shins and/or groin, or an elbow to the clavicle. Firearms are the "easiest" and a relatively "safe" option for self-defense, but there are certainly other options, and to say that firearms have a greater disposition to be abused would be a gross understatement


----------



## Navonod (Feb 15, 2018)

I find it funny that some of you think that any retard with a gun could out gun a trained professional.


ThisIsDaAccount said:


> I favor as much protection for school as well, as long as it doesn't disrupt the school environment. and you're right that some people will find ways around it, they always do. Possible restrictions for me aren't about making sure no one ever gets non self defense guns, theyre about letting as few people as possible access them.
> 
> As long as we tackle the issue from different angles, we can make our students safer.


It wont disrupt the school. Security is there to do their thing. Students should be taught were to go and what to do when such an event happens.

1. Do you hear gun fire? Lock doors hide and get low.
2. See shooter? Get low and behind cover and out of the way for security if possible.
And so on. During weekends, have the school do mandatory or optional "what to do when" courses. It isn't hard and is not a quick fix but it's something.


----------



## Hells Malice (Feb 15, 2018)

DinohScene said:


> You don't need a firearm to protect your property, a kitchen knife will also do fine.



You give a knife to a young woman who'se 100 lbs soaking wet and see if it's her, or the two 200lb intruders that end up dead, or raped.

Black and white views are horribly unrealistic. There are plenty of cases where people who do not have the physical strength to defend themselves have won their lives back by shooting an intruder.
I'm completely anti-gun, and would rather people be taught to defend themselves with better means, but there's no saving the US anymore. Guns are a reality, and they always will be. The entire nation is up to their necks in guns. You can't regulate or get rid of them anymore. I'ts impossible. No gun laws or regulations will fix things anymore.

Regardless, there are plenty of situations where the legal ownership of a firearm makes perfect sense. To not see that requires monumental ignorance, no matter what your personal opinions of firearms are. There's no good, clean or easy solution. Just like basically everything else in life.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> Dude, that is nothing but an excuse to weasel your way out. I hope that you don’t actually believe that someone has a chance against an AK-15 only with defense training..


That reminds me of Sean Hannity saying that he could have stopped the Las Vegas shooter _if _he were there and _if _he had his handgun and _if _the shooter was in the crowd and _if _the shooter was using a handgun instead of a sniper rifle (etc.)

He basically made up a whole new imaginary scenario completely divorced from reality lol


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> TSA couldn't do anything at wide-spread scale unless the airline asked them to by policy, and even then policy allows things to slip through the cracks without nearly as much consequence as violating a federal offence would


I don't think people that are planning to kill themselves to take out others really care about federal offence, do you? Airport security isn't perfect. People sneak drugs and stuff on planes all the time. My point is, if someone wants to kill people they'll find a way. Laws only work on people that care about them. Gun control isn't the answer. Only law abiding people would surrender them. Then guns are then left to only criminals and the police (who will wait to take down a suspect until the attack is over, once a hostage is killed they can't interfere). I'd rather have a few gun nut 'muricans around that want to play hero.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

Chary said:


> And even if gun vs gun still has a chance of the defender being shot, they still have a very higher chance to keep themselves alive, against a stronger opponent. This is _why _most people will defend guns to the death.


In video game land and John Wick, sure.  In real life guns often aren't the optimal home defense weapon, because you need to know beforehand something is going down, and you need at least 8-10 feet to get a shot off before someone can close the gap.  The confined spaces of your typical home make knives, tasers, and pepperspray more effective.  These are also weapons small enough to carry at all times.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> I don't think people that are planning to kill themselves to take out others really care about federal offence, do you?


I was talking about TSA and airport security, not the terrorists themselves


----------



## punderino (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> Of course the person itself is the source issue, but you can’t deny that gun laws make it worse. A crazy person with a gun is more dangerous than a crazy person with a knife. You can’t make laws to prevent crazy persons but you can make laws that prevent crazy persons with a gun.


Crazy people don't follow the law. Especially ones planning a mass shooting. It's not something they just someday decide to do. It's planned. They will find a gun no matter what. If not legally from a store, illegally from somewhere else. Instead of removing guns from everyone thus making it so that the people who do get guns can just mow people down and not worry about it, I believe they should either arm some teachers, or hire more resource officers. Why do you think school shooters go to a school? I mean part of it is usually personal, but no one in a school can fight back. They're all defenseless. That's just wrong to have a bunch of people in one building and not allowing them to protect themselves.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> In video game land and John Wick, sure.  In real life guns often aren't then optimal home defense weapon, because you need to know beforehand something is going down, and you need at least 8-10 feet to get a shot off before someone can close the gap.  The confined spaces of your typical home make knives, tasers, and pepperspray more effective.


Plus with guns, a responsible gun owner should (maybe even legally mandatory? not for sure) have a gun safe or vault to store firearms in at home. In the case of an intruder, your gun's not going to be on you, and if you don't keep it locked up you run the risk of someone else in your home either using it against you or themselves (suicide)


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I was talking about TSA and airport security, not the terrorists themselves


In that case it still means nothing. Homeland security found that the TSA has failed to stop 95% of potential attacks. The TSA is just there for show. A hope that their existence itself will be a deterrent.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Oh good lord... I just talked to one of my friends, and she says (verbatim) "This was almost my cousins. They knew one of the boys who was shot. He was shot in the ankle trying to drag a body out of the way. His mom brings my cousins home 3 times a week. These are real people, real lives affected, real lives ended. But hey: the nearly unconditional right to bear arms with minimal training and checks is more important right? Don't want to inconvenience gun owners and those who aspire to be."


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Plus with guns, a responsible gun owner should (maybe even legally mandatory? not for sure) have a gun safe or vault to store firearms in at home. In the case of an intruder, your gun's not going to be on you, and if you don't keep it locked up you run the risk of someone else in your home either using it against you or themselves (suicide)


The gunman always has the element of planning and/or surprise on his side, which is why there was no possibility of effectively firing back at the Las Vegas shooter.  What everybody believes they may or may not do in an active shooter situation goes out the window the second you hear those shots start firing.


----------



## Xathya (Feb 15, 2018)

very horibels and my pras are with peoples of lost families.
in my metho
helos mr fbis!!
i am xathya and i can not helps identify said mens mans BUT i know who can helps, please find this mans: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...he_Echidna.png/220px-Knuckles_the_Echidna.png
ds of helps i submid with fbis froms said mesage:


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The gunman always has the element of planning and/or surprise on his side, which is why there was no possibility of effectively firing back at the Las Vegas shooter.  What everybody believes they may or may not do in an active shooter situation goes out the window the second you hear those shots start firing.


To springboard off of that...
[tweet]https://twitter.com/AshleyANjax/status/963885487441240065[/tweet]
Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/AshleyANjax/status/963924873964867585


----------



## Soulsilve2010 (Feb 15, 2018)

Guns are not the problem imo,its how the US handles mental illness and health.A very sad day for sure.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

Soulsilve2010 said:


> Guns are not the problem imo,its how the US handles mental illness and health.A very sad day for sure.


Well surely you'd agree then at least that accessibility of guns for the mentally ill is a problem.  A fully automatic rifle is far too efficient a killing machine to give away thoughtlessly.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Well surely you'd agree then at least that accessibility of guns for the mentally ill is a problem.  A fully automatic rifle is far too efficient a killing machine to give away thoughtlessly.


Fortunately full autos have been illegal for a while now. Semi-autos are still just fine, though


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Fortunately full autos have been illegal for a while now. Semi-autos are still just fine, though


Bump stocks are still legal AFAIK.

Edit: this site was easy to find, sure seems like it could help you unload a lot more lead:

http://www.slidefire.com/product/ar-platform/


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Fortunately full autos have been illegal for a while now. Semi-autos are still just fine, though


Alot of good that does. I have a friend with a full auto BAR and another with a full auto m16. I personally own 40cal black talons. The law doesn't matter. And  Here's the problem with trying to turn this into a gun control issue. You are taking liability away from the shooter. You guys remember there's a person behind the gun that would use any means necessary right?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Alot of good that does. I have a friend with a full auto BAR and another with a full auto m16. I personally own 40cal black talons. The law doesn't matter. And  Here's the problem with trying to turn this into a gun control issue. You are taking liability away from the shooter. You guys remember there's a person behind the gun that would use any means necessary right?


Simple then, report your friend and get him fined and/or his firearm taken away. If you know that he possesses an illegal firearm and you choose to do nothing about it, that technically makes you an accessory to a crime


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Alot of good that does. I have a friend with a full auto BAR and another with a full auto m16. I personally own 40cal black talons. The law doesn't matter. And  Here's the problem with trying to turn this into a gun control issue. You are taking liability away from the shooter. You guys remember there's a person behind the gun that would use any means necessary right?


"Any means necessary."  It doesn't matter.  A katana or a bow or whatever the fuck else is not gonna kill seventeen people in a matter of minutes.  These firearms are obviously more advanced than any that civilians had access to in the past.  But hey, let's just keep cannibalizing ourselves as a nation because that's what we've been doing anyway, right?  I know it doesn't matter.  I know the second amendment is probably tied for first most holy, and people will get their guns as they always have.  Sometimes it's enough to make me want to move and change citizenship despite living a comfortable life here.  I own a couple guns myself, but the crowd that lives and breathes and fucks guns is something different.  Especially those heartless in the face of tragedies like this one and all those in the recent past just because they want to be quick to clutch their pearls (gun rights).  God forbid we ever went down to only *10* guns on the street for every citizen.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Simple then, report your friend and get him fined and/or his firearm taken away. If you know that he possesses an illegal firearm and you choose to do nothing about it, that technically makes you an accessory to a crime


True...he could report him as anonymous, but I don't like to impose morality one way or another.  The bigger picture is definitely the bigger problem in America anyway, and certainly nothing positive in regard to guns will be happening under Trump.


----------



## Hells Malice (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> In video game land and John Wick, sure.  In real life guns often aren't the optimal home defense weapon, because you need to know beforehand something is going down, and you need at least 8-10 feet to get a shot off before someone can close the gap.  The confined spaces of your typical home make knives, tasers, and pepperspray more effective.  These are also weapons small enough to carry at all times.



Pepper spray _can_ be effective, but you have to be fairly accurate and somewhat close range. Not to mention it's just an irritant and doesn't necessarily mean you're going to actually disable the intruder.
Knives and tasers both require close range, and if you're weaker and not accustomed to fighting, means you probably will not win that encounter. Both are fairly ineffective against more than one opponent too. You're talking out of your ass m8. A gun might not be_ pleasant_ to use indoors because of the noise echo, but I guarantee I can shoot your stupid ass at 1 ft and 10ft, with increasing simplicity the closer you get. That's typically how aiming works. We don't use muskets and flintlock pistols anymore, they're fairly fast and fairly accurate.

Again there's no simple solution, and it's stupid to think there could be. I'm a big guy, I could probably beat someone to death with just about anything I have in my room currently, not to mention I know how to fight. But someone smaller and weaker has no real chance of defending themselves just because they're armed with a taser or knife. I wouldn't be scared of a 14 year old girl with a knife. But a 14 year old girl with a gun? I'm either dead or jumping out a window.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Hells Malice said:


> I wouldn't be scared of a 14 year old girl with a knife. But a 14 year old girl with a gun? I'm either dead or jumping out a window.


Oh the irony


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> "Any means necessary."  It doesn't matter.  A katana or a bow or whatever the fuck else is not gonna kill seventeen people in a matter of minutes.  These firearms are obviously more advanced than any that civilians had access to in the past.  But hey, let's just keep cannibalizing ourselves as a nation because that's what we've been doing anyway, right?  I know it doesn't matter.  I know the second amendment is probably tied for first most holy, and people will get their guns as they always have.  Sometimes it's enough to make me want to move and change citizenship despite living a comfortable life here.  I own a couple guns myself, but the crowd that lives and breathes and fucks guns is something different.  Especially those heartless in the face of tragedies like this one and all those in the recent past just because they want to be quick to clutch their pearls (gun rights).  God forbid we ever went down to only *10* guns on the street for every citizen.


I was speaking more along the lines of using pipebombs, anthrax, arson, etc. They've all been done before. You guys seem to think it's a easy as just making guns illegal. It's not that simple. Heroin has been 100% illegal for at least 100 years. We have the largest death toll from heroin od today then we've ever had before.

If guns were banned, or even more controlled then they are now, people would stock up. They would get their hands on every gun and bit of ammo they could for fear that they would be without. This has been proven when the government was buying up all the rounds they could a few years ago. Prices on ammo went sky high, and people were going nuts to stock up. Gun control would make the gun situation worse. And the harder they pushed the more people would push back. The reason the government hasn't tried to come and take our guns is because we have guns.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Simple then, report your friend and get him fined and/or his firearm taken away. If you know that he possesses an illegal firearm and you choose to do nothing about it, that technically makes you an accessory to a crime


That would be a dick thing to do


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## Deboog (Feb 15, 2018)

I think I am desensitized to most shootings. After all, some parts of the world are in the middle of civil wars.

But whenever it's a school I feel sad.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> That would be a dick thing to do


You're absolutely right, but the only way that laws like that work is if they're enforced. By allowing your friend to keep automatic weapons, both you and your friend are part of the problem


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

Hells Malice said:


> Pepper spray _can_ be effective, but you have to be fairly accurate and somewhat close range. Not to mention it's just an irritant and doesn't necessarily mean you're going to actually disable the intruder.
> Knives and tasers both require close range, and if you're weaker and not accustomed to fighting, means you probably will not win that encounter.


Heh, shows what you know of the different Scoville values in pepper spray, some of which can blind a person for well over a day.  Also you have options for ranged and baton tasers.  Both fantastic weapons if you pick a quality product.  I've also got a large double-sided knife with full steel-knuckle handguard that's fun to play with.  Guns are obviously your most lethal option, but still not likely to be your most effective unless you're one of those weirdos who is always strapped.  Easier to keep good pepper spray or a good taser/small knife nearby.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You're absolutely right, but the only way that laws like that work is if they're enforced. By allowing your friend to keep automatic weapons, both you and your friend are part of the problem


What problem? In what world is there a set of infallible rules? Laws don't have any supernatural moral authority behind them. You know what enforces laws? Dudes with guns. You know who makes laws, dudes in suits. There was a time when I would have been "part of the problem" for letting a black person take my seat on a bus.

If there were a civil war, an invasion from another country, civil uprising, we'd be lucky to have people with weaponry. Laws are just rules for people too stupid to make the right decisions on their own. Betraying my friends over something petty as owning a weapon that never sees the light of day is an idiotic thing to do. We can't just trust the rule makers have our best interests at heart.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> I was speaking more along the lines of using pipebombs, anthrax, arson, etc. They've all been done before. You guys seem to think it's a easy as just making guns illegal. It's not that simple. Heroin has been 100% illegal for at least 100 years. We have the largest death toll from heroin od today then we've ever had before.


Nah my thought process would be a buyout for all unwanted/excess guns across the country, including from pawn shops and etc.  Fair pricing of course.  Not making guns illegal, of course that wouldn't work.



WeedZ said:


> If guns were banned, or even more controlled then they are now, people would stock up. They would get their hands on every gun and bit of ammo they could for fear that they would be without. This has been proven when the government was buying up all the rounds they could a few years ago. Prices on ammo went sky high, and people were going nuts to stock up. Gun control would make the gun situation worse. And the harder they pushed the more people would push back. The reason the government hasn't tried to come and take our guns is because we have guns.


Oh please.  The government does not need our guns, and the NRA will give you any line to sell you a gun when prices are highest (like they were during the moronic panic of the Obama years).


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Nah my thought process would be a buyout for all unwanted/excess guns across the country, including from pawn shops and etc.  Fair pricing of course.  Not making guns illegal, of course that wouldn't work.
> 
> 
> Oh please.  The government does not need our guns, and the NRA will give you any line to sell you a gun when prices are highest (like they were during the moronic panic of the Obama years).


I'm not saying they need our guns. Let's say the buyout of ammo was a line. It was still effective wasn't it? That's my point. The moment guns were harder to come by, the more people would collect and hoard them. Paranoia is a powerful thing.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> I'm not saying they need our guns. Let's say the buyout of ammo was a line. It was still effective wasn't it? That's my point. The moment guns were harder to come by, the more people would collect and hoard them. Paranoia is a powerful thing.


Paranoia is correct.  The whole "ammo buyout" is fake news according to an old Forbes article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankm...use-of-gun-ammunition-shortages/#60390cdc2215

The crazy ammo sales and ammo prices were literally just gun owners in a panic, and Obama never passed any real gun legislation because nothing could be agreed upon in Congress and the Senate (as usual).  Even after Sandy Hook.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Paranoia is correct.  The whole "ammo buyout" is fake news according to an old Forbes article:
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankm...use-of-gun-ammunition-shortages/#60390cdc2215
> 
> The crazy ammo sales and ammo prices were literally just gun owners in a panic, and Obama never passed any real gun legislation because nothing could be agreed upon in Congress and the Senate (as usual).


Now imagine actual legislation being put in place. Suddenly civilians are more heavily armed then before. Then imagine the extreme possibility, law enforcement confiscating weapons. It would be civil war 2. The inbetween, your idea of a buyout. I have no doubt that sporting goods owners, pawn owners, gun store owners would take the guns for themselves and sell to family and friends.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Now imagine actual legislation being put in place. Suddenly civilians are more heavily armed then before. Then imagine the extreme possibility, law enforcement confiscating weapons. It would be civil war 2. The inbetween, your idea of a buyout. I have no doubt that sporting goods owners, pawn owners, gun store owners would take the guns for themselves and sell to family and friends.


How about just my idea for an (optional) buyout and universal/slightly more comprehensive background checks?  Gun owners would still be in a panic.  That's my point.  They're fucking peckerwoods, they'll piss their pants over anything gun related because they've completely lost their objectivity.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> How about just my idea for an (optional) buyout and universal/slightly more comprehensive background checks?  Gun owners would still be in a panic.  That's my point.  They're fucking peckerwoods, they'll piss their pants over anything gun related because they've completely lost their objectivity.


I think we're in complete agreement at this point.

I just don't think that any measures taken to reduce the amount of guns in civilian hands (even successful ones) would make a difference in preventing tragedies like this one.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> I think we're in complete agreement at this point.
> 
> I just don't think that any measures taken to reduce the amount of guns in civilian hands (even successful ones) would make a difference in preventing tragedies like this one.


You're probably right.  Doesn't make it any easier watching ~50 other countries go year after year without a single gun death.  Guess this is how Rome falls the second time.


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## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

I never understood why people protect firearms so much. Why? I never felt the need to own one. Hell I can get a sport license to own a handgun for sports (shooting at targets) but I never felt the need to own a gun.

Do most people even know why the second additament exists?


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> I never understood why people protect firearms so much. Why? I never felt the need to own one. Hell I can get a sport license to own a handgun for sports (shooting at targets) but I never felt the need to own a gun.
> 
> Do most people even know why the second additament exists?


It's not about protecting guns. Its about keeping the focus on the true problem, mental health. Start saying guns are the cause of these tragedies and you don't do anything to fix the problem or hold the perpetrators accountable.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> I think we're in complete agreement at this point.
> 
> I just don't think that any measures taken to reduce the amount of guns in civilian hands (even successful ones) would make a difference in preventing tragedies like this one.



It wouldn't, people who get them illegally would still get them illegally; what needs to happen is people getting tested for mental health and are capable of being responsible, but also stricter background checks. The problem isn't firearms, it's the idiots who abuse them. Knives kill people too, but the problem isn't knives, again, the people behind them are the issue.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> It's not about protecting guns. Its about keeping the focus on the true problem, mental health. Start saying guns are the cause of these tragedies and you don't do anything to fix the problem or hold the perpetrators accountable.


That's what irks me so much though, the right-wing always talks about mental health as a distraction after a shooting happens, but they never do anything about mental health issues and they never will.  That would require spending money that has to go to their billionaire donors instead.


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## george1391 (Feb 15, 2018)

Everytime this issues arises I can't help but watch this video:


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

george1391 said:


> Everytime this issues arises I can't help but watch this video:



I like it because John Oliver on the splash, but sadly the video is not available in the US.


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## DBlaze (Feb 15, 2018)

I find it funny people immediately jump to the "guns are not the problem" point.
Maybe not, but the ease of access you people have to guns is definitely a problem.
If you can buy guns nearly as easy as going to your local supermarket, then that is part of the problem. Saying it's not you may as well agree to stores selling hard-drugs because in the end it depends on how you use or don't use it.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DBlaze said:


> I find it funny people immediately jump to the "guns are not the problem" point.
> Maybe not, but the ease of access you people have to guns is definitely a problem.
> If you can buy guns nearly as easy as going to your local supermarket, then that is part of the problem. Saying it's not you may as well agree to stores selling hard-drugs because in the end it depends on how you use or don't use it.


Yes, I agree we need better laws and regulations in place, even if people don't follow them much of the time.


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## emigre (Feb 15, 2018)

It's shit so many people have died. To be blunt there'll be a few days of mourning and it will be forgotten with no action taken. It happens with every shooting incident in America which is scandalous for a first world country. America truly has a toxic relationship cum obession with firearms and requires significant policy and cultural/societal changes to mend.


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## cobleman (Feb 15, 2018)

Well here in Australia we had one mass shooting of 35 people in 1997 . Since then after the new gun laws over 20 years there have been 4 mass shooting resulting in 13 deaths in total. Prior to 1997 for 20 years there was 59 deaths from mass shootings. Do the math changing the gun laws has saved at least 40 lives but with inflation and growth you could triple that number easily...


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

DBlaze said:


> I find it funny people immediately jump to the "guns are not the problem" point.
> Maybe not, but the ease of access you people have to guns is definitely a problem.
> If you can buy guns nearly as easy as going to your local supermarket, then that is part of the problem. Saying it's not you may as well agree to stores selling hard-drugs because in the end it depends on how you use or don't use it.


People don't automatically jump to "guns aren't the problem". People jump to "guns are the problem". Without that argument there's nothing to defend. It's not entirely easy to buy guns. They do background checks. More often than not the guns are stolen.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

cobleman said:


> Well here in Australia we had one mass shooting of 35 people in 1997 . Since then after the new gun laws over 20 years there have been 4 mass shooting resulting in 13 deaths in total. Prior to 1997 for 20 years there was 59 deaths from mass shootings. Do the math changing the gun laws has saved at least 40 lives but with inflation and growth you could triple that number easily...


No second amendment or NRA in Australia.  People care more about people than guns, that's why such a miniscule number (from the US's perspective) was enough to force change.


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## george1391 (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> No second amendment or NRA in Australia.  People care more about people than guns, that's why such a miniscule number (from the US's perspective) was enough to force change.


But then there's argument in that video, 'if you can't get rid of it 100%, then it's not worth it.'

Any reduction in the number guns (however small the amount) would be beneficial.


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## T-hug (Feb 15, 2018)

Ban the guns. Why is it so hard for Americans to get that?
Who do you need to defend from if no one has a gun any more?
They have no place in public hands in civilized society and we'll be having this same thread everytime it happens until someone makes a ban happen.

We barely have any gun deaths in UK and it's not rocket science, it's because we have no guns for sale to the public.
We have a lot of knife crime, but I'd rather take my chances against a guy with a knife than a guy with an AR15.

The mental health angle is bs from the pro gun lobby to take people's minds away from ban guns to treat mental health.
At least they got this kid alive for once. Kind of hard to treat a dead kid's mental health.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

george1391 said:


> But then there's argument in that video, 'if you can't get rid of it 100%, then it's not worth it.'
> 
> Any reduction in the number guns (however small the amount) would be beneficial.


I agree but I also see WeedZ's perspective and I don't think it's possible to get rid of any guns.  The streets are already flooded with them in certain areas, and certain crazies own upward of fifty or a hundred.  All you do by even implying reduction in guns is add to total gun ownership.


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

T-hug said:


> Ban the guns. Why is it so hard for Americans to get that?
> Who do you need to defend from if no one has a gun any more?
> They have no place in public hands in civilized society and we'll be having this same thread everytime it happens until someone makes a ban happen.
> 
> ...


Your cops don't have guns either. You have any idea how many people are gunned down by police here? You think our government will take power from the police force once civilians give them up? We want to avoid a military state.


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## T-hug (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Your cops don't have guns either. You have any idea how many people are gunned down by police here? You think our government will take power from the police force once civilians give them up? We want to avoid a military state.


Our police can indeed have guns, and do, but only when it's necessary. Every officer doesn't need to be armed. This isn't about law enforcement though, and with an all out ban on guns, it would be a lot harder for police to shoot to kill AND get away with it.


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Your cops don't have guns either. You have any idea how many people are gunned down by police here? You think our government will take power from the police force once civilians give them up? We want to avoid a military state.


Well, the primary reason I own guns is target shooting, and the secondary is home defense as a last resort (.45 and shotgun, so either is likely to kill).  The military would not fire on US civilians if ordered to, but if for some reason they did, our pea shooters would do us no good anyway.  They have killer drones and chemical warfare from hell and tanks and fighter jets and etc and so forth.  If the US military really wants you dead they just blow up whatever building you're in.


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

T-hug said:


> Our police can indeed have guns, and do, but only when it's necessary. Every officer doesn't need to be armed. This isn't about law enforcement though, and with an all out ban on guns, it would be a lot harder for police to shoot to kill AND get away with it.


They shoot unarmed people all the time. Our countries have two completely different histories. England and it's first police force was already established by the time guns became a thing. The US was largely unsettled. Being that most of the land was lawless and unorganized, our law enforcement relied mainly on militia and civil vigilantes. If we had been established before the invention of firearms it could have been controlled. The other issue is that firearms played a huge role in our independence from King George and establishing us as a country. That's why we have the freedom to bare arms in our constitution. We are established by guns. It's no easy thing to take them away, and given our constitution, it's illegal to do so.


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## shaunj66 (Feb 15, 2018)

Just read about this. I don't have much to say apart from the shooter is a fucking coward and I hope he rots.

My thoughts go out to the families of the tragically innocent victims .


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

shaunj66 said:


> Just read about this. I don't have much to say apart from the shooter is a fucking coward and I hope he rots.
> 
> My thoughts go out to the families of the tragically innocent victims .


I think we can all agree on that


----------



## dimmidice (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if any of you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.


It being harder to get guns isn't a bad thing. Who even needs an assault rifle for any legitimate reason?


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## Vamosi (Feb 15, 2018)

Corrupted goverment is the problem, they want to disarm people for their agenda and will use any means.


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## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> Of course the person itself is the source issue, but you can’t deny that gun laws make it worse. A crazy person with a gun is more dangerous than a crazy person with a knife. You can’t make laws to prevent crazy persons but you can make laws that prevent crazy persons with a gun.


i can do much more damage with a knife than i can with a gun


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## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people.



Living in a sensible country, that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

We have had *ONE* school shooting *EVER*. You know what we did about it? Have a guess... We BANNED guns and guess what? Go on... have a guess... We haven't had a school shooting since. Not ONE!

I can't believe *anyone *can turn around and say that a 101% gun ownership rate is not responsible for people getting shot. The more guns there are, the more likely you are to get shot, it isn't complicated math here. 
*If I don't have a gun, I can't shoot you, no matter how bad my upbringing, or how many mental issues I have. Yet if I have a gun, even if I am the most calm, stable and enlightened person on the planet, I can still shoot you with it.*


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## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

T-hug said:


> Ban the guns. Why is it so hard for Americans to get that?


I think it may be related to the importance of "individual rights" over "social rights" in the American mind, or how the individual and what an individual can do is seen as more important than its effects on society as a whole.

It is an idea I have, but I think it is related to how many people think that "they can reach the american dream", they can get rich, etc, and they decide to go along with things that would make it possible even if only for a few to become richer even if that means a lot of people will have a worse life because of that, even if it means _they themselves_ will have a worse life, they may end up worse but people still think they will be one of the few that can reach that "dream", even when statistics are against them.

The same way, I think people believe that if they can have a gun, they can defend themselves, so if someone came to kill them, they will at least be able to counterattack. They are thinking individually, instead of thinking that if they can have guns, it means it is easier for everybody to have guns, and it makes it easier for way more people to come to kill them. The global result may be worse, but I believe people in America usually think in the local, individual scale, not in the global scale.

Of course all of this is prejudice.


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## leon315 (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> US gun laws must be changed


Bill clinton has tried, obama has tried, are there anyone else have tried? no luck... now ask Trump for it.


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## Dante2405 (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm French and spend a few month in US every year for work purpose. That's a country I know as well as others (been traveling for quite long) so I believe I've got perspectives. 
When I read peoples still not blaming gun laws after the 19th school shooting of the year, I can only get angry.
Yeah there are society problems, mental illnesses and all that shit but guess what... in other countries too.

You don't get 17 dead bodies out of an angry sick teenager. You get it out of a sick teenager with easy gun access. Period!


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## mightymuffy (Feb 15, 2018)

To be honest my first reaction, being at work, was sadness for victims and their families  

..but also a slight rolling of the eyes at the whole gun thing over on that side of the pond. The gun thing cannot be addressed so easily I admit - one can't simply wave a magic wand and make that whole complete balls up of an idea go away....
But the rolling eyes disappeared quickly when I got home and found out the weapon was an AK15?? Just what in the name of fuck are weapons like that doing in the hands of the US public?! My mind is just fukkin boggled, semi automatics available freely?! I mean of course the common stereotype for Americans is you're all a bit stupid yeah? In the same way as every Brit has hardly any teeth? You all kick off when the rest of the world calls you thick, but.... y'know? 19 year old kid walking into a high school with a semi automatic, for the umpteenth time? Come on lads, anyone still defending the gun issue here - get a grip...


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## Localhorst86 (Feb 15, 2018)

Easy gun access is the cause for the magnitude of the problem. Wether it is by buying the guns legaly in a shop or by stealing them from someone else, you can not deny that the 19th school shooting in the US this year alone (That's a school shooting every other day ffs!) can only be caused by this fact. Other countries with strict gun laws have a lot fewer school shootings. Let's take Germany, for example. People can own guns, but very few people do. So with fewer guns around, it's also harder to steal guns. Here's a (as far as I know) complete list of school shootings in germany in the last 17 years:

2002, Erfurt: 17 dead, including the gunner - guns illegaly purchased from proper gun stores with fraudulent documents
2002, Eching: 4 dead* including the gunner - origin of the guns unknown *only 1 person at the shool was killed, the shooting started at a company the person was laid off from.
2003, Coburg: 1 dead, including the gunner - origin of the guns unknown
2006, Emsdetten: 1 dead, including the gunner - guns purchased online, legal to own without special permits
2009, Ansbach: none dead - no guns used, only axes, knives and molotov cocktails.


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## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Here's a (as far as I know) complete list of school shootings in *England* in the last 17 years:


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## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm starting to get that all americans got mental health issues that seriously want to protect guns. Take them away and it's harder for a person to get hold of them. Yes, it won't stop everything, neither will keep allowing the guns either. Just sayin'
Mental Health seems to be an scapegoat.


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## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> Here's a (as far as I know) complete list of school shootings in *England* in the last 17 years:


England seems safer than most Englishmen, specially politicians, usually suggest.


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## Owenge (Feb 15, 2018)

This happened 10 minutes away from my house so ya, scary shit


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## Astral_ (Feb 15, 2018)

Gun banning is close to impossible now, the USA are filled with guns to the brim. What kind of control could possibly be established at this time ?

You just reap what your ancestors/founding fathers/NRA supporters have sown. Again. And again.


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## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

Astral_ said:


> Gun banning is close to impossible now, the USA are filled with guns to the brim. What kind of control could possibly be established at this time ?
> 
> You just reap what your ancestors/founding fathers/NRA supporters have sown. Again. And again.


Yeah, that makes the situation quite hard. But not impossible.
It will only enable the pretext of "bad people still have guns, I need them to defend myself", but if you crush the naysayers for long enough the situation should heal.

Ban guns, seize guns, perform a strict control of the black market, and after a long time you won't have 20 guns per Citizen lying around in the streets. Sure it sounds a little dictatorial, but strictness is needed under harsh circumstances.


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## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> i can do much more damage with a knife than i can with a gun



Not from the other side of a street.



sarkwalvein said:


> England seems safer than most Englishmen, specially politicians, usually suggest.


Sure we have issues over here, but getting shot isn't one of them.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> Not from the other side of a street.
> 
> 
> Sure we have issues over here, but getting shot isn't one of them.


I can also do more dammage with the crossbow in my garage


----------



## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> I can also do more dammage with the crossbow in my garage


Perhaps, but you have to be skilled to do damage with a crossbow, in the other hand you don't have to be skilled, actually you don't even have to be human to do damage with a gun.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Feb 15, 2018)

i said and i will say again
USA is a very DUMB country
they let any idiot use guns and shit happens
shame on you florida... and new york


----------



## Localhorst86 (Feb 15, 2018)

Isn't Florida the state where you can chase someone and shoot them on the street because you feel threatened by them?


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Localhorst86 said:


> Isn't Florida the state where you can chase someone and shoot them on the street because you feel threatened by them?


yeah
stand your ground law


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> I can also do more dammage with the crossbow in my garage


Please stop with your "edgy" shit. You are just a person like anyone else, that wouldn't hurt a person. Even if you did you would say sorry like 5 times over.
Seen that crap so many times when I used to work at a high school. Trying to act cool and when it comes to pay the bills, they are scarry cats.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> Please stop with your "edgy" shit. You are just a person like anyone else, that wouldn't hurt a person. Even if you did you would say sorry like 5 times over.
> Seen that crap so many times when I used to work at a high school. Trying to act cool and when it comes to pay the bills, they are scarry cats.


what edgy shit?
im serious about this
if I suddenly wanted everyone dead I could do it without a gun
but its hard to get me mad enough to even come close to that
im a violent person but I prefeer peace over senseless killing


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> what edgy shit?
> im serious about this
> if I suddenly wanted everyone dead I could do it without a gun
> but its hard to get me mad enough to even come close to that
> im a violent person but I prefeer peace over senseless killing


You're a teenagers, you will get over it and go in the the normal working cycle where all of these violence things you think you can do, never will happen. Everyone think they're immortal at your age.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> You're a teenagers, you will get over it and go in the the normal working cycle where all of these violence things you think you can do, never will happen. Everyone think they're immortal at your age.


I know Im not immortal
and me being like this is not "just a teenage phase" because its pretty much who I am
I've been like this since I was a kid and its the way I see tge world
and I don't back down on things
I've been jumped in school a few times and I defended myself each time
and in one of those I ended up breaking the kids arm


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

Good for you! I also had the same issues, I came close to break/dislocate ones arm. But I let go.
Not to burst your bubble, you're still a kid. Your brain still develops until the age of 25. Call me after that and see if you still try to paint everything black and white about the world.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant leg. Not arm.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> Good for you! I also had the same issues, I came close to break/dislocate ones arm. But I let go.
> Not to burst your bubble, you're still a kid. Your brain still develops until the age of 25. Call me after that and see if you still try to paint everything black and white about the world.


not everything is black and white and I never said it was


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> not everything is black and white and I never said it was



Some things are though, there wouldn't be 17 dead kids if the angry one didn't have a gun.

We haven't had a school shooting here in 20 years, and it has nothing to do with how angry or challenged our kids are. It has nothing to do with less or more bullying. It has to do with how many people have guns. 
And before people say stupid things like "it's our constitutional right to have a gun, you can't change that" - your constitution CAN be changed and HAS been 27 times. The longer it takes America to wake up, the more Americans will be shot dead.


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

Holy balls! 133! Compared to fucking Russia and Finland where guns are allowed?
Mental Health isn't the issue, the people are.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> Some things are though, there wouldn't be 17 dead kids if the angry one didn't have a gun.
> 
> We haven't had a school shooting here in 20 years, and it has nothing to do with how angry or challenged our kids are. It has nothing to do with less or more bullying. It has to do with how many people have guns.
> And before people say stupid things like "it's our constitutional right to have a gun, you can't change that" - your constitution CAN be changed and HAS been 27 times. The longer it takes America to wake up, the more Americans will be shot dead.


the gun was stolen


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> No second amendment or NRA in Australia.  People care more about people than guns, that's why such a miniscule number (from the US's perspective) was enough to force change.


While that's true, there was HUGE conservative pushback akin to what we have whenever this comes up here. This is the series that that clip came from, I recommend taking the 20 minutes to watch all three of the videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8eq5DPi5SWyNbFQ8qdJSfWtblaY3-iky


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> While that's true, there was HUGE conservative pushback akin to what we have whenever this comes up here. This is the series that that clip came from, I recommend taking the 20 minutes to watch all three of the videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8eq5DPi5SWyNbFQ8qdJSfWtblaY3-iky


I'm watching the first one right now... I think my blood pressure is rising about that NRA guy.


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> the gun was stolen



He wouldn't be able to steal a gun if nobody had guns. Again, not rocket science.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> He wouldn't be able to steal a gun if nobody had guns. Again, not rocket science.


Sure he will reply that he could've gotten it in the black market, or 3d print it, or whatever.
The saying goes "there are none so blind as those who will not see".
It is simple and statistical, if there are less guns, it is harder to get one, and the number of incidents is reduced.
Of course they will not go down to zero, but they will be strongly reduced, simply because it is hard.

But well, they say "it is still possible", and that's all they need to see, it's like rocket science and fireworks are the same for them.


----------



## Joe88 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> the gun was stolen


It wasnt stolen
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...oblems-bought-ar-15-legally-article-1.3821950


----------



## huma_dawii (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if any of you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.



If troubled people or less people had access to guns, this could've been avoided... that's a fact too.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

Wondering more and more what this "Disturbing internet history" of his is. _*thinks*_


----------



## jahrs (Feb 15, 2018)

so it seems people are missing a few necessary points. 

1 you dont need to ban guns just auto/semi auto with large clips. reduces kill counts possible. if not ban(auto/semi) then severly limit the amount availible somehow.

2 assuming everyone can use a gun. guns are not point and click they have actual requirements to use. safeties, ammo, recoil and drawback for most. and in a scenario were someone is frighten they might not be able to reach for the gun and do all that faster then the in this case the stronger person. now saying if the guns safety was off and the gun was already cocked then maybe but if thats the case its way more dangeous for a civilian to carry and misfires would be more likely to occur.

3 mental health and gun training. if everyone was treated for their mental health and was trained to use guns then most of what both sides are saying could work but we live in the usa. money means more then human life and so do human rights so thats not happening because of the expense.

4 arguments about this are pointless unless someone here is bill gates just drop it and spend the time you are arguing here actually making a difference. I.E go out there and start a gun training center or mental health clinic, raise your kids properly and teach them the value of a human life so that the next generation can do better. because simply put if you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem and the problem is not soley guns or no guns its why human life is so undervalued that people value a piece of metal and plastic over them.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> He wouldn't be able to steal a gun if nobody had guns. Again, not rocket science.


if nobody had guns they couldnt defend themeslves, i really hate gun control advocates like you


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> if nobody had guns they couldnt defend themeslves, i really hate gun control advocates like you


You say that as though self-defense requires a firearm

And again, I'm going to pull this because it's relevant whenever this comes up: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5045479/Walmart-shoppers-drew-handguns-shooting.html


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You say that as though self-defense requires a firearm
> 
> And again, I'm going to pull this because it's relevant whenever this comes up: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5045479/Walmart-shoppers-drew-handguns-shooting.html


i know that thats a thing but the daily mail is mixed with fake news and shitpost-ish news too so i dont trust most of them


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

BlueFox gui said:


> i said and i will say again
> USA is a very DUMB country
> they let any idiot use guns and shit happens
> shame on you florida... and new york



Gee, thanks for the awesome generalizing there, blaming over 300 million people for the action of a few.  We couldn't care less if you never visited the states, you're not welcome here anyway with that mentality. Like your country is any better when it comes to gun-related crimes.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> i know that thats a thing but the daily mail is mixed with fake news and shitpost-ish news too so i dont trust most of them


https://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/02/shoppers-pulled-weapons-walmart-shooting/

Takes two seconds to click on the source


----------



## BlueFox gui (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Gee, thanks for the awesome generalizing there, blaming over 300 million people for the action of a few.  We couldn't care less
> if you never visited the states, you're not welcome here anyway with that mentality.


no problem ^^
the thing is, they shouldn't let anyone get guns because this stupid guy just bought it without problems


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> if nobody had guns they couldnt defend themeslves, i really hate gun control advocates like you



Couldn't defend themselves against what?


----------



## BlueFox gui (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Gee, thanks for the awesome generalizing there, blaming over 300 million people for the action of a few.  We couldn't care less if you never visited the states, you're not welcome here anyway with that mentality. Like your country is any better when it comes to gun-related crimes.


also don't worry, when i go to USA it will be a pleasure visit you >: )


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

BlueFox gui said:


> no problem ^^
> the thing is, they shouldn't let anyone get guns because this stupid guy just bought it without problems



I'll be sure to take your comments less seriously and block you, your BS comments don't contribute a bloody thing. Take your anti-American bull crap and stick it.



BlueFox gui said:


> also don't worry, when i go to USA it will be a pleasure visit you >: )



Yeah, right, I'll just pretend not to be home when you do.  You hate America and all 300 million plus people anyway, so what difference would it make?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Gee, thanks for the awesome generalizing there, blaming over 300 million people for the action of a few.  We couldn't care less if you never visited the states, you're not welcome here anyway with that mentality. Like your country is any better when it comes to gun-related crimes.


For once I'm actually gonna agree with BlueFox, the fact that we've cornered ourselves into a situation where we CAN'T do anything about gun violence is really, REALLY stupid and says a lot about the values (or lack thereof) of the people who are in control of the legal process


----------



## goldensun87 (Feb 15, 2018)

1. Guns are not the issue.
2. He was not "mentally ill", he was another racist terrorist.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I'll be sure to take your comments less seriously and block you, your BS comments don't contribute a bloody thing. Take your anti-American bull crap and stick it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, right, I'll just pretend not to be home when you do.


just please
accept when your country have PROBLEMS and don't say "patriotic bullshit"

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

and no problem, since your country is intelligent and sell guns i can buy one to visit you ^^


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> For once I'm actually gonna agree with BlueFox, the fact that we've cornered ourselves into a situation where we CAN'T do anything about gun violence is really, REALLY stupid and says a lot about the values (or lack thereof) of the people who are in control of the legal process



I'm not trying to make light of the situation, the system is broken, FUBAR, if you will. We need mental check and testing or background checks that make it a lot  harder, and restricting semi-automatic guns. Who in blue blazes needs a semi-automatic?



BlueFox gui said:


> just please
> accept when your country have PROBLEMS and don't say "patriotic bullshit"
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> ...



Whatever.  My state has a stand your ground law, and if you so much as try to break and enter into  my home, I have every right to use lethal force by any means necessary, so don't even try to screw with me.  I'm not in the mood.

Okay, yes, our country  has problems, LOTS of problems. I'm not denying that at all, but come on, do I go around generalizing your country for the actions of criminals? No, so don't go around hating all the populace for the actions of a few, it's just a stupid thing to do, but whatever.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

BlueFox gui said:


> and no problem, since your country is intelligent and sell guns i can buy one to visit you ^^


Yeah that's about enough of that


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> Couldn't defend themselves against what?


people who obtain the guns illegaly


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> people who obtain the guns illegaly


So, if the supply chain is cut off, how would people get them illegally?


----------



## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

That is what I meant regarding the "defence" fallacy, it is very egoistic and bad for society as a whole. People think that their capacity to have guns to defend themselves will make them safer (statistically wrong) and they don't care if it also puts everybody else in a greater risk.



sarkwalvein said:


> I think it may be related to the importance of "individual rights" over "social rights" in the American mind, or how the individual and what an individual can do is seen as more important than its effects on society as a whole.
> 
> It is an idea I have, but I think it is related to how many people think that "they can reach the american dream", they can get rich, etc, and they decide to go along with things that would make it possible even if only for a few to become richer even if that means a lot of people will have a worse life because of that, even if it means _they themselves_ will have a worse life, they may end up worse but people still think they will be one of the few that can reach that "dream", even when statistics are against them.
> 
> ...


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm surprised by the amount of violent responses and people who actually support guns ownership and usage in this thread. Holy shit, i really don't want to sound mean or insult you, but if you support violence in any of its forms you have a little problem in your mind.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So, if the supply chain is cut off, how would people get them illegally?


blackmarket imports
stealing from ex military
stealing from officers

the people at the school including securety guards were upset that they had nothing to defend themselves with
they couldve ended it in seconds if the guards had guns


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> people who obtain the guns illegaly



I don't need a gun to protect myself against people who illegal obtain guns. Guess why...


----------



## BlueFox gui (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> I don't need a gun to protect myself against people who illegal obtain guns. Guess why...


u hav UR HANDS HAHA!


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> I don't need a gun to protect myself against people who illegal obtain guns. Guess why...


because you already have a bullet in your head


----------



## BlueFox gui (Feb 15, 2018)

nooo he has his hands


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> I'm surprised by the amount of violent responses and people who actually support guns ownership and usage in this thread. Holy shit, i really don't want to sound mean or insult you, but if you support violence in any of its forms you have a little problem in your mind.



So do you expect people to be defenseless and have no means of protecting against violent criminals? Okay. Sounds good to me.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> blackmarket imports


Difficult to do that if no guns whatsoever are allowed into the country. You'd have to sneak it in with something else, which is a lot more of a hassle with something as bulky with a gun, as opposed to something like drugs


> stealing from ex military


Can't do that effectively if none of the military are allowed to keep ammunition in any serious quantity at home, like in Sweden I believe. (Plus, you've just outlined a pretty big flaw in the whole "home defense" argument you've been presenting, anyway)


> stealing from officers


I'm confused, how would someone be able to do that? According to you, an innocent person with a gun should be able to stop home invasions or street robberies if they can shoot the criminal. How would the robber get the gun that they're using to defend themselves? (rhetorical, but feel free to answer anyway)


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

One day Americans might love their children more than they love their guns. But I can't see it happening any time soon.


----------



## SirNapkin1334 (Feb 15, 2018)

My friend @Eix said that there were rumors going around his school saying that there was going to be a shooting on Valentine's Day. Well, it wasn't his school that had the shooting, but one 50 miles away. That's fucking creepy.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Difficult to do that if no guns whatsoever are allowed into the country. You'd have to sneak it in with something else, which is a lot more of a hassle with something as bulky with a gun, as opposed to something like drugs
> 
> Can't do that effectively if none of the military are allowed to keep ammunition in any serious quantity at home, like in Sweden I believe. (Plus, you've just outlined a pretty big flaw in the whole "home defense" argument you've been presenting, anyway)
> 
> I'm confused, how would someone be able to do that? According to you, an innocent person with a gun should be able to stop home invasions or street robberies if they can shoot the criminal. How would the robber get the gun that they're using to defend themselves? (rhetorical, but feel free to answer anyway)



my stepdad is exmilitary
we have enough ammo and guns (even fucking grenades) to start a small war
we make our bullets aswell as buy
so you can just make your own bullets once you reach the limit
its fairly easy to make them

also it would be fairly easy to steal a gun from an officer
you just need to trick one into coming to your house and grab a kitchen knife
youve just obtained
body armour
weapon
ammo
taser
car
2 star wanted level in gta (i just needed to put this in here)

now your set to go on a rampage before the police can get you

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



SirNapkin1334 said:


> My friend @Eix said that there were rumors going around his school saying that there was going to be a shooting on Valentine's Day. Well, it wasn't his school that had the shooting, but one 50 miles away. That's fucking creepy.


yeah
for almost a month there were rumors going around
i didnt know they were about a shooting until a week ago


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> So do you expect people to be defenseless and have no means of protecting against violent criminals? Okay. Sounds good to me.


One thing is defend yourself, and other is talking openly about hurt people, like for example, how both of you and blue fox were threatening each other or how other users talk bullshit about killing others with other means. You can't say that's normsl behavior or caring about the others, at all.


----------



## SirNapkin1334 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> 2 star wanted level in gta


While I was reading that, I immediately thought of that, and then you said it. Well done.


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> One thing is defend yourself, and other is talking openly about hurt people, like for example, how both of you and blue fox were threatening each other or how other users talk bullshit about killing others with other means. You can't say that's normsl behavior or caring about the others, at all.



Oh so I should just take it up the tailpipe and say, "Please sir, may I have another?"


----------



## SirNapkin1334 (Feb 15, 2018)

We are having a happy valentines thread and a depressing school shooting thread showing up in my alerts at the same time. xD


----------



## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> blackmarket imports
> stealing from ex military
> stealing from officers
> 
> ...


But the defence argument is a fallacy, as I explained above. And it is so because not only you obtain guns, but everybody else also.
You will only become more and more defenceless, guns are way too good for offence, and not so good as a deterrent specially against crazy people.

And also regarding the black market, of course it is a slow process that you have to go through to heal the system.


sarkwalvein said:


> Yeah, that makes the situation quite hard. But not impossible.
> It will only enable the pretext of "bad people still have guns, I need them to defend myself", but if you crush the naysayers for long enough the situation should heal.
> 
> Ban guns, seize guns, perform a strict control of the black market, and after a long time you won't have 20 guns per Citizen lying around in the streets. Sure it sounds a little dictatorial, but strictness is needed under harsh circumstances.





sarkwalvein said:


> Sure he will reply that he could've gotten it in the black market, or 3d print it, or whatever.
> The saying goes "there are none so blind as those who will not see".
> It is simple and statistical, if there are less guns, it is harder to get one, and the number of incidents is reduced.
> Of course they will not go down to zero, but they will be strongly reduced, simply because it is hard.
> ...


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> my stepdad is exmilitary
> we have enough ammo and guns (even fucking grenades) to start a small war
> we make our bullets aswell as buy
> so you can just make your own bullets once you reach the limit
> its fairly easy to make them


So you would break the law just... because?... All to put more people at risk??



> also it would be fairly easy to steal a gun from an officer
> you just need to trick one into coming to your house and grab a kitchen knife
> youve just obtained
> body armour
> ...


I'm having trouble trying to get past the mental gymnastics required to get past the fact that you keep saying that firearms are the only real option for self-defense, but then you go on to say that an armed officer could be taken down by a kitchen knife. All I'm really seeing here is that regardless of how armed _you _are, someone that's armed (not necessarily with a firearm!) and intent on committing a crime is going to do it anyway

The difference between a crime committed _with _a firearm and one _without_ is that one of them is infinitely more lethal in terms of potential body count


----------



## AkikoKumagara (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> A former student who was apparently expelled for issues inside the school. Mate, the issue isn't gun laws. The issue isn't the gun. It's the person. It's the people. He CLEARLY was a troubled person. He apparently has a background of some mental issues. Instead of getting him the help he needed, he was pushed away. I'm going to say this now, if any of you think guns are ANY part of the problem here, you're an idiot.


I'd argue the issue is that of security. Why was an expelled student wandering the premises freely? The point of expulsion is to keep one off the premises. It kind of undermines the whole purpose if no one is enforcing safety of the students. I'm not going to get into the gun debate at all, but there needs to be some manner of security in all US high schools (perhaps even all schools in general), because this is far too common at this point.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So you would break the law just... because?... All to put more people at risk??
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble trying to get past the mental gymnastics required to get past the fact that you keep saying that firearms are the only real option for self-defense, but then you go on to say that an armed officer could be taken down by a kitchen knife. All I'm really seeing here is that regardless of how armed _you _are, someone that's armed and intent on committing a crime is going to do it anyway


i would break laws any time
but i prefer not to hurt people

and im saying that guns are the best way to defend yourself
not the only way


----------



## Xathya (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Well surely you'd agree then at least that accessibility of guns for the mentally ill is a problem.  A fully automatic rifle is far too efficient a killing machine to give away thoughtlessly.


prety surs of backgronds check on sales of gunes. if disable in heads or evens instuctionised no buys can


----------



## gnmmarechal (Feb 15, 2018)

WiiUBricker said:


> If you haven’t heard by now, today was a devastating day for humanity as there was a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. I think this is a topic that shouldn’t be ignored. Here you can find the archived reddit live feed regarding the events. Suspect is a 19 year old, former student of the school who was expelled for disciplinary reasons. As of writing, the police confirmed 17 deaths and 17 injured. Weapon was an AK-15 rifle.
> 
> The FBI has set up a website where you can submit photos, videos and other information about the shooting.
> 
> ...



At least they asked.


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Oh so I should just take it up the tailpipe and say, "Please sir, may I have another?"


Not exactly. Once again, im not saying that your right of self defense is wrong, what im saying is that your and other users behavior about openly talk about violence and support it in all its forms is what is wrong here.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> and im saying that guns are the best way to defend yourself
> not the only way


If guns are indeed the best way, then why would the armed officer not survive the stabbing in your hypothetical?


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> If guns are indeed the best way, then why would the armed officer not survive the stabbing in your hypothetical?


suprise stab as they open the door


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Not exactly. Once again, im not saying that your right of self defense is wrong, what im saying is that your and other users behavior about openly talk about violence and support it in all its forms is what is wrong here.



With all due respect, he said he would "visit me with a gun", so what am I supposed to do, laugh it off?  Maybe I should just put him on my ignore list, this thread is nothing but a farce; all talk and nothing resolved. All gun debates never get resolved anyway.

Screw this.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> suprise stab as they open the door


So, if it's that easy, why have a gun for home defense in the first place?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



the_randomizer said:


> With all due respect, he said he would "visit me with a gun", so what am I supposed to do, laugh it off?  Maybe I should just put him on my ignore list, this thread is nothing but a farce; all talk and nothing resolved. All gun debates never get resolved anyway.
> 
> Screw this.


I think Deslot is saying that BlueFox is part of the problem, too


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> With all due respect, he said he would "visit me with a gun", so what am I supposed to do, laugh it off?  Maybe I should just put him on my ignore list, this thread is nothing but a farce; all talk and nothing resolved. All gun debates never get resolved anyway.
> 
> Screw this.


You answered yourself. Better to ignore if you can than rather fall in the same violence game.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TotalInsanity4 said:


> So, if it's that easy, why have a gun for home defense in the first place?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Not only he, but a few others in this thread too. Gash, it is just i cant understand. I csnt see myself posting about stabing someone in the back because idk, that's disgusting.


----------



## Polopop123 (Feb 15, 2018)

Stricter guns laws will work, not letting people with mental problems have them is a must. Doing tests to see if they are in the right mind. However, banning guns will be about as effective as the War on Drugs


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> But the defence argument is a fallacy, as I explained above. And it is so because not only you obtain guns, but everybody else also.
> You will only become more and more defenceless, guns are way too good for offence, and not so good as a deterrent specially against crazy people.
> 
> And also regarding the black market, of course it is a slow process that you have to go through to heal the system.


If you look at this incident as a controlled experiment, it disproves your point.

1. Guns are banned on government and school grounds.

2. The only gun in this area was illegally obtained and wielded by a criminal with mental issues.

3. Those that follow the law, included those charged with safety, were defenseless.

As far as black market. The market for illegal obtaining and trafficking guns is already strong. They go hand in hand with drugs.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Polopop123 said:


> Stricter guns laws will work, not letting people with mental problems have them is a must. Doing tests to see if they are in the right mind. However, banning guns will be about as effective as the War on Drugs


Anyone with a lab can grow/refine drugs. It takes precision equipment to make a firearm (3D printed models came up a while ago, but I wouldn't trust them to not jam or explode in your face and the FBI seems to be doing a decent job of keeping the designs off the internet)


----------



## Polopop123 (Feb 15, 2018)

DinohScene said:


> Last school shooting in Europe was somewhere in the 90s.
> 
> I'm sorry but anyone saying "it's not the guns, it's the person" is wrong.
> It is the ease of access to guns.
> ...


There was a school shooting in Italy last month although thankfully no one was killed. Pretty sure some fatal school shooting happened in the 2000’s in England in a primary school


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

Polopop123 said:


> banning guns will be about as effective as the War on Drugs



Worked very well in Australia.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Polopop123 said:


> There was a school shooting in Italy last month although thankfully no one was killed. Pretty sure some fatal school shooting happened in the 2000’s in England in a primary school



Once every few (or longer) years, not every 3 days.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> 1. Guns are banned on government and school grounds.


That doesn't mean shit if you can still get and use them in the surrounding area. A restriction has to be widespread to work.


> 2. The only gun in this area was illegally obtained and wielded by a criminal with mental issues.


According to @Joe88 the gun was purchased legally


> 3. Those that follow the law, included those charged with safety, were defenseless.


That's null if a would-be shooter can't access guns in the first place



> As far as black market. The market for illegal obtaining and trafficking guns is already strong. They go hand in hand with drugs.


The current black market takes legally obtained weapons in circulation that were either traded or stolen and sells them to criminals. If you cut off the supply chain, you don't have a black market


----------



## DinohScene (Feb 15, 2018)

Polopop123 said:


> There was a school shooting in Italy last month although thankfully no one was killed. Pretty sure some fatal school shooting happened in the 2000’s in England in a primary school



According to Wikipedia, there has been a few but most of them (with fatalities above 2 or 3) are either terroristic attacks or madmen running rampant and the school was just in the way.

Still doesn't changes me point much when compares to the annual school shootings in the US.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

DinohScene said:


> According to Wikipedia, there has been a few but most of them (with fatalities above 2 or 3) are either terroristic attacks or madmen running rampant and the school was just in the way.
> 
> Still doesn't changes me point much when compares to the annual school shootings in the US.


I think you mean "weekly"


----------



## DinohScene (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I think you mean "weekly"



Daily would be more accurate.


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

DinohScene said:


> Daily would be more accurate.


Every few hours would sound better (?)


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So, if it's that easy, why have a gun for home defense in the first place?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


your just asking the same question over and over again


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

Guys, I'll debate gun control all day. I see points from both sides. But you guys are fueling a stereotype that needs to be addressed. We are not the highest in gun related deaths, not even close. Gun violence isn't the most common factor for death here. It's not even in the top 10. Most causes of death are conditions related to old age. We aren't a bunch of Rambo's and gangsters here. This isn't venezuela.


----------



## DinohScene (Feb 15, 2018)

Polopop123 said:


> There was a school shooting in Italy last month although thankfully no one was killed. Pretty sure some fatal school shooting happened in the 2000’s in England in a primary school





			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> *United States[edit]*
> Main article: School shootings in the United States
> School shootings are an "overwhelmingly American" phenomenon due to the availability of firearms in the United States.[43]
> 
> ...



Forgot to add that to me post.
Ironic how it says "overwhelmingly American" ;')


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Guys, I'll debate gun control all day. I see points from both sides. But you guys are fueling a stereotype that needs to be addressed. We are not the highest in gun related deaths, not even close. Gun violence isn't the most common factor for death here. It's not even in the top 10. Most causes of death are conditions related to old age. We aren't a bunch of Rambo's and gangsters here. This isn't venezuela.


The main point was school and mass shooting. The most notable country there is the US. The rest of america isnt even near usa in that subject. Except venezuela i guess, but still, they are ina different subject and im more secure here than if someday i happen to visit usa.


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Guys, I'll debate gun control all day. I see points from both sides. But you guys are fueling a stereotype that needs to be addressed. We are not the highest in gun related deaths, not even close. Gun violence isn't the most common factor for death here. It's not even in the top 10. Most causes of death are conditions related to old age. We aren't a bunch of Rambo's and gangsters here. This isn't venezuela.



So because gun violence isn't the number one killer you shouldn't do anything about it?


----------



## Polopop123 (Feb 15, 2018)

It’s funny how these make national headlines meanwhile many, many more homocide are committed by black males, despite them being a minority,  and no one bats an eye, not even BLM. More needs to be done to fund black neighborhoods as its obvious that’s the real problem.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Eix said:


> your just asking the same question over and over again


I'm asking the same question because you keep giving the same answer that's completely contradictory to what you've been saying this whole thread, yet you retain your original stance


WeedZ said:


> Guys, I'll debate gun control all day. I see points from both sides. But you guys are fueling a stereotype that needs to be addressed. We are not the highest in gun related deaths, not even close. Gun violence isn't the most common factor for death here. It's not even in the top 10. Most causes of death are conditions related to old age. We aren't a bunch of Rambo's and gangsters here. This isn't venezuela.


You're right about the US not being the highest in gun related deaths (although we _are_ number 11, and the countries we come behind aren't exactly something to be proud of either), but we _are _the 2nd highest by gun-related suicide, and as far as I can tell, we're the country with the most annual mass shootings as well. No, we're obviously not "a bunch of Rambos," and yes, gun violence obviously is a global concern and not just an American one, but the rate of mass shootings like this is a _uniquely_ American (United States) problem


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

"But we need the gun to protect our selves"

Why do people need to protect themselves? Against what exactly?
I know the USA is all about fear,death and violence (yes, your news like to portrait that very well!)

What I see and probably the rest of the world are gun nuts that are afraid of other people, so they try to protect themselves against basically themselves. They're all alike.
You can't defend guns, if they where harder to get a hold off, natrually it would be harder to do these mass shootings. It's basic freaking math.

"But they can get a gun illegally!" Sure, but between the time they manage to buy one and actually do the deed. They might been capture already!


----------



## Polopop123 (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> Worked very well in Australia.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Guns aren’t outright banned ther though. They are here in Ireland and ever since they were, homocide by guns are rising


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Polopop123 said:


> It’s funny how these make national headlines meanwhile many, many more homocide are committed by black males, despite them being a minority,  and no one bats an eye, not even BLM. More needs to be done to fund black neighborhoods as its obvious that’s the real problem.


Just because it doesn't make headlines doesn't mean the Black community isn't trying to do stuff about it, good Lord. That's a very racist talking point that right wing news outlets ALWAYS use whenever a mass shooting comes up to distract from the problem that IS in the headlines

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Polopop123 said:


> Guns aren’t outright banned ther though. They are here in Ireland and ever since they were, homocide by guns are rising


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-shootings-and-reduced-homicides-study-finds


----------



## sarkwalvein (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> If you look at this incident as a controlled experiment, it disproves your point.
> 
> 1. Guns are banned on government and school grounds.
> 
> ...


But I do believe that security forces should carry guns, and they should be around schools in the USA, specially in the USA, given how schools are a target there. I only think that the common person shouldn't have guns, or at least big guns.
Anyway, as I said above, if such a transition from a excess of guns to a mostly gun-free society ever happens, it will be a slow transitions with problems and hardships in between.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> So because gun violence isn't the number one killer you shouldn't do anything about it?


Thats not what I was saying


TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm asking the same question because you keep giving the same answer that's completely contradictory to what you've been saying this whole thread, yet you retain your original stance
> 
> You're right about the US not being the highest in gun related deaths (although we _are_ number 11, and the countries we come behind aren't exactly something to be proud of either), but we _are _the 2nd highest by gun-related suicide, and as far as I can tell, we're the country with the most annual mass shootings as well. No, we're obviously not "a bunch of Rambos," and yes, gun violence obviously is a global concern and not just an American one, but the rate of mass shootings like this is a _uniquely_ American (United States) problem


We do have more school shootings. We also have a much larger land mass and population than most countries here debating. I feel if I ran the numbers it would be proportional.


linuxares said:


> "But we need the gun to protect our selves"
> 
> Why do people need to protect themselves? Against what exactly?
> I know the USA is all about fear,death and violence (yes, your news like to portrait that very well!)
> ...


We're afraid of our government.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> We do have more school shootings. We also have a much larger land mass and population than most countries here debating. I feel if I ran the numbers it would be proportional.


They aren't. Nor is our gun-to-citizen ratio


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> We do have more school shootings. We also have a much larger land mass and population than most countries here debating. I feel if I ran the numbers it would be proportional.


Last I read, UK gun ownership was 6%, USA was 101%. There are more legally owned guns in America than there are people.


----------



## Polopop123 (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Just because it doesn't make headlines doesn't mean the Black community isn't trying to do stuff about it, good Lord. That's a very racist talking point that right wing news outlets ALWAYS use whenever a mass shooting comes up to distract from the problem that IS in the headlines
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


I never said Australia’s homocide rate isn’t declining. I simply pointed out that it doesn’t work every time. In Urelad it’s been on the ride ever since gun laws were introduced. One example doesn’t represent the whole picture
  Also, facts aren’t racist, that’s plain stupid talk there. It’s the truth. No attention is drawn to the growing problem that is black on black crime.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Polopop123 said:


> Also, facts aren’t racist, that’s plain stupid talk there. It’s the truth. No attention is drawn to the growing problem that is black on black crime.


You clearly misunderstood what I was saying; the fact itself isn't racist, but using as a talking point to distract from a relevant issue is. Particularly when the person bringing it up ignores all the factors that go into crime rates in Black-majority communities, and what those communities are trying to do about it


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> Last I read, UK gun ownership was 6%, USA was 101%. There are more legally owned guns in America than there are people.


Yeah, I was trying to go down a particular arguement but I was completely wrong in my thinking.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 15, 2018)

ooo armed intruder at my brothers colledge
and its close to the other shooting


----------



## dAVID_ (Feb 15, 2018)

Guns are a vicious circle, you know.
A gun is just an object, that shoots metal projectiles in a very fast velocity.
It's a people problem, not just a regulation issue, and at this point, as said early, if we prohibit guns, we'll just get the same effect as the alcohol prohibition.
I do agree that guns shouldn't be allowed to be at school, a good metal detector would be a quick way to adress this issue, but that won't fix the problem entirely.
If you take away drugs from an addict, sure, they'll stop consuming them, but did you really fix the core of the problem?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

dAVID_ said:


> Guns are a vicious circle, you know.
> A gun is just an object, that shoots metal projectiles in a very fast velocity.
> It's a people problem, not just a regulation issue, and at this point, as said early, if we prohibit guns, we'll just get the same effect as the alcohol prohibition.
> I do agree that guns shouldn't be allowed to be at school, a good metal detector would be a quick way to adress this issue, but that won't fix the problem entirely.
> If you take away drugs from an addict, sure, they'll stop consuming them, but did you really fix the core of the problem?


So how do you propose fixing America's "gun addiction"?


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm curious, will there ever be a solution (not perfect, but somewhat effective) towards properly sanctioned gun control? A solution to where both sides can actually agree? I'm curious because on other platforms, I've seen some seriously toxic comments and backbiting. I mean, it makes me cynical to the point to where every single politician won't agree simply based  on the fact that they only care about making their wallets fat.


----------



## dAVID_ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So how do you propose fixing America's "gun addiction"?



Let's analyze. What causes people to shoot other people?

Anger.
Enjoyment (sadism and psychopathy)
Self defense
Let's see the first one: Anger.
If someone get very angry and shoots the person who irritates him/her, it's clearly because they are unfit for having a firearm? How would we fix this issue? Psychological examination. But if that person doesn't pass the test, he'll just get it illegaklly. Making regulations more strict leads to the exact same path.

Enjoyment:
We enter another problem. Psychopaths frequently go undetected, they are very skilled at passing by undetected, and are very calculating.
You'd need an extremely efficient psychological examination. One that could break any lie. Certainly a very skilled psychologist won't have a session with an entire country. So the answer? AIs.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So how do you propose fixing America's "gun addiction"?


Focus on healthcare and mental health


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Focus on healthcare and mental health



While not penalizing people who can't afford healthcare due to dire financial situations. Make it easier to access and then get the mental health evaluation and help people need. The healthcare system is broken, very very broken, and not financially viable for everyone.


----------



## Noctosphere (Feb 15, 2018)

To all those who says "It wasn't predictable" Excuse me, but it was very predictable
with that soooo easy acces to military weapon, it's not surprising that it happens often
Plus, from what I heard at news, since the beginning of 2018, it's the 18th school shooting in usa


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> While not penalizing people who can't afford healthcare due to dire financial situations. Make it easier to access and then get the mental health evaluation and help people need. The healthcare system is broken, very very broken, and not financially viable for everyone.


The government should pay for healthcare. Especially if they want to make insurance mandatory.


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> The government should pay for healthcare. Especially if they want to make insurance mandatory.



I'm glad they repealed the Obamacare penalty for 2018, that's for bloody sure.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I'm glad they repealed the Obamacare penalty for 2018, that's for bloody sure.


Oh fuck yeah. I liked every year when I filed taxes, luckily they never looked into it.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> The government should pay for healthcare. Especially if they want to make insurance mandatory.


The only way that that's possible is by raising taxes, unfortunately. However, they should have put the tax burden on the higher brackets, rather than including the lower-middle class


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The only way that that's possible is by raising taxes, unfortunately. However, they should have put the tax burden on the higher brackets, rather than including the lower-middle class



Don't they realize that we don't have a proper infrastructure for a decent universal healthcare system? Clearly not.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Don't they realize that we don't have a proper infrastructure for a decent universal healthcare system? Clearly not.


We honestly just need a complete overhaul of our tax system


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> We honestly just need a complete overhaul of our tax system



That too, it's a joke.

Also can someone tell me why Chicago, and DC, two cities with strict gun laws, just so  happen to have rampant issues with gun-related crimes?  Surely, gun control isn't to blame, right?


----------



## spinal_cord (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Also can someone tell me why Chicago, and DC, two cities with strict gun laws, just so  happen to have rampant issues with gun-related crimes?  Surely, gun control isn't to blame, right?



From what I here, your whole country has 'rampant issues with gun-related crimes' or else you wouldn't have a mass shooting every three days.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Also can someone tell me why Chicago, and DC, two cities with strict gun laws, just so  happen to have rampant issues with gun-related crimes?  Surely, gun control isn't to blame, right?


Fwiw, I'm not posting this agressively, I'm posting it because it's informational (check the whole thread):
“WHAT ABOUT CHICAGO?” regurgitates every gun loving NRA puppet, even though this “point” is easily debunked. So ONE MORE TIME:— Andy Richter (@AndyRichter) November 6, 2017


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The only way that that's possible is by raising taxes, unfortunately. However, they should have put the tax burden on the higher brackets, rather than including the lower-middle class


If the government paid for it the price for healthcare would drop dramatically. The US has high medical costs because insurance companies demand lower prices. Hospitals make prices outrageous so they can cut insurance companies a 'deal' on that outrageous price and still make profits. If the government took over payments, insurance wouldnt be necessary. The raise to taxes wouldnt be that much. And honestly, I'd be happier paying taxes for things like healthcare and education instead of military, which is at something like 80% of our tax dollars.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

Classy as always, Trump blames the classmates of the shooter for not reporting him to police:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...ers-classmates-for-failing-to-report-him.html

Meanwhile, at least one student said what we were probably all thinking: 'I don't want your condolences, you piece of s***' - Student slams Trump over gun control after 17 killed at Florida school'

https://www.independent.ie/world-ne...ter-17-killed-at-florida-school-36606766.html


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Classy as always, Trump blames the classmates of the shooter for not reporting him to police:
> 
> http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...ers-classmates-for-failing-to-report-him.html
> 
> ...


Can you post the tweet of the student? Wanna read it and the comments.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Classy as always, Trump blames the classmates of the shooter for not reporting him to police:
> 
> http://nymag.com/daily/intelligence...ers-classmates-for-failing-to-report-him.html
> 
> ...


My favorite is when some coward-ass piece of shit said "Someone want to tell Generation Z kids that in the event of a school shooting, they should call 911 instead of posting a picture of it on Snapchat" and that student responded with
17 people are dead. 17 of my classmates. This is how you fucking respond? How much of a heartless dick do you have to be to tweet something like this. And btw as we were running for our lives we were calling 911 to the point that they told us not to anymore. https://t.co/MQWae1mGwv— Sarah Chadwick (@Sarahchadwickk) February 14, 2018


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> My favorite is when some coward-ass piece of shit said "Someone want to tell Generation Z kids that in the event of a school shooting, they should call 911 instead of posting a picture of it on Snapchat" and that student responded with
> https://twitter.com/sarahmara16/status/963922899982782465


There were selfies and snapchats though.. that's kinda fucked up.


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> My favorite is when some coward-ass piece of shit said "Someone want to tell Generation Z kids that in the event of a school shooting, they should call 911 instead of posting a picture of it on Snapchat" and that student responded with
> https://twitter.com/sarahmara16/status/963922899982782465


Whoa, just, woah... Sorry but some people there in the us are really fucked up.


----------



## Olmectron (Feb 15, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Try to justify the fact that gun laws don't make the problem better. If someone wants to kill, they will. Talking about taking away a form of defense due to a crudely ignorant stance is fuel for the fire. The issue isn't "guns". Guns don't kill people. People kill people. "b-b-but they'll have to use a different weapon".. They'll still be using a fucking weapon. Even one life would be all it takes to fulfill his twisted desires. He's a mental case that went ignored for way too long.
> 
> Of course the easiest thing to blame is the non-issue. That's all people look at. That'll be the major point. "Why did he have a gun and how did he get it?" Not "How did he become so mentally ill and what can we do to help those in trouble?"


In Mexico, there are many deaths every day because of organized crime buying guns in the black market (guns are really restricted here for the average guy). This country is a bloodfest in many places. And the place is as corrupt that organized crime is the real government here.

But still, since 2000, there have been only 4 School Shootings incidents. With less than 10 deaths in total.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Mexico

Guns are the fricking problem in USA. Even if they are in the black market a lot, here in Mexico, with many crazy ill parented kids, we have a lot less of these incidents.

I feel bad for those who died in the incident. I really do. Everyone who says weapons available to nearly everyone is OK, please, think more about it.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Can you post the tweet of the student? Wanna read it and the comments.


Seems she deleted the original tweet and apologized with this one:

https://twitter.com/sarahmara16/status/964199257153720320

"About my tweet directed to president trump, I apologize for the profanity and harsh comment I made. I hope you know I’m a grieving 16 year old girl who lost friends, teachers, and peers yesterday. I was and am still angry. I am apologizing for my comment but not for my anger."


----------



## DeslotlCL (Feb 15, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Seems she deleted the original tweet and apologized with this one:
> 
> https://twitter.com/sarahmara16/status/964199257153720320
> 
> "About my tweet directed to president trump, I apologize for the profanity and harsh comment I made. I hope you know I’m a grieving 16 year old girl who lost friends, teachers, and peers yesterday. I was and am still angry. I am apologizing for my comment but not for my anger."


Thank you. And poor girl, still think she should have leaved the tweet for bit longer so that incompetent trump could have see it.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Thank you. And poor girl, still think she should have leaved the tweet for bit longer so that incompetent trump could have see it.


Oh he'll see it. Screengrabs are all over the news, and we all know how much of that he consumes

Waiting for the Trump tweet that's something along the lines of "Ungrateful girl should be thankful she's alive. SAD"


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Thank you. And poor girl, still think she should have leaved the tweet for bit longer so that incompetent trump could have see it.


Well, probably smart not to start a Twitter war with him, though not many would be on Trump's side in that.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread and Quartz wrote an article about it today.  "One of Trump’s first acts as president made it easier for the mentally ill to buy guns."

https://qz.com/1207806/parkland-sch...e-it-easier-for-the-mentally-ill-to-buy-guns/


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

I still don't get people's "Defense" of the guns. I still waiting for a valid one that can't be discredited yet.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> I still don't get people's "Defense" of the guns. I still waiting for a valid one that can't be discredited yet.


There is no logical defense of keeping bump stocks legal and automatic firearms highly available.  We're simply a gun culture, and much of the country prefers alcohol to weed still.  Obviously a dangerous combination on its own without even taking mental illness into account.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> I still don't get people's "Defense" of the guns. I still waiting for a valid one that can't be discredited yet.


We've been through this over and over. Everytime it concludes someone pops in with "I don't get defending guns". We don't need to keep sparking that debate.

Guns should be banned. Due to mistrust of government, constitutional rights, no feasible method of banning it will *never* happen. We need to focus on measures of preventing these tragedies through means of screenings and availability of mental health care. Get off the guns. Theyre not going anywhere, period. Move on to other solutions.


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

Answer honestly then, do you really think YOU (as tiny americans) can go up against the government without the help of the military? Then you're delusional. It was maybe something in the 1700-1800s but in 2010s? Yeah good luck with that.
It's a bygone law/constitution.

Also, people have overthrown governments without violence as well. Just sayin'


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> We've been through this over and over. Everytime it concludes someone pops in with "I don't get defending guns". We don't need to keep sparking that debate.
> 
> Guns should be banned. Due to mistrust of government, constitutional rights, no feasible method of banning it will *never* happen. We need to focus on measures of preventing these tragedies through means of screenings and availability of mental health care. Get off the guns. Theyre not going anywhere, period. Move on to other solutions.


The mental health part needs to be part of the overhaul, but the guns NEED to go. Other countries have pulled it off, there's no excuses for us not to try to get the problem under control


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The mental health part needs to be part of the overhaul, but the guns NEED to go. Other countries have pulled it off, there's no excuses for us not to try to get the problem under control


Because they are in our constitution. Its *illegal* to ban them. As long as anyone wants them to stay, they'll stay. You see a unanimous vote across the board in this country to change that?


----------



## Olmectron (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Because they are in our constitution. Its *illegal* to ban them. As long as anyone wants them to stay, they'll stay. You see a unanimous vote across the board in this country to change that?


So, just let more people die?

Okay.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Because they are in our constitution. Its *illegal* to ban them. As long as anyone wants them to stay, they'll stay. You see a unanimous vote across the board in this country to change that?


You don't need a unanimous vote to hold a constitutional convention, you need 2/3rds of the states to agree that we need one. The problem is that once we hold one, ANYTHING is on the table to potentially be changed, which for some reason everyone seems to be afraid of


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You don't need a unanimous vote to hold a constitutional convention, you need 2/3rds of the states to agree that we need one. The problem is that once we hold one, ANYTHING is on the table to potentially be changed, which for some reason everyone seems to be afraid of


They won't hold a vote because it opens that door. There are things that shouldn't be touched. Once we act on one, everything is fair game.



Olmectron said:


> So, just let more people die?
> 
> Okay.


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. We should gun up and help take out all the millennials we can. Gfto and stop purposefully exaggerating my words.


----------



## Olmectron (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. We should gun up and help take out all the millennials we can. Gfto and stop purposefully exaggerating my words.



Sorry for that.

I like your posts, so I don't want to argue.

But I just say. If the government can't change their constitution for something really important, like kids' (and not so kids) lifes in schools, then something is very wrong with it.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> They won't hold a vote because it opens that door. There are things that shouldn't be touched.


The Constitution was designed to be changed. There's nothing in there that shouldn't be liable to being updated to fit the needs of the times, that's how we got the Civil Rights Act and both prohibition and the removal of prohibition


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

Olmectron said:


> Sorry for that.
> 
> I like your posts, so I don't want to argue.
> 
> But I just say. If the government can't change their constitution for something really important, like kids' (and not so kids) lifes in schools, then something is very wrong with it.


Absolutely. But we keep having this debate as though there is anything we can do about it. My point is to ground this a bit. The guns will always be a part of US culture, always has been. But there are other things _we_ can do to help. We can donate to our schools to help them with security, we can push for better healthcare which would include availability to mental health, etc. My frustrations come from the gun debate in general. It's a pointless debate. People get so heating over stuff that's not in our power. I'm tired of being told how stupid we Americans are for allowing guns. The fuck are we going to do about it? Please instruct.


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## DarthDub (Feb 15, 2018)

Gun-free Zones are the reason people died.


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## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

It's been changed 27 times. I think scratching out a really outdated one won't be a issue.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DarthDub said:


> Gun-free Zones are the reason people died.


Yes, because some brings a gun to them... just imagine if no one had one!


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## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The Constitution was designed to be changed. There's nothing in there that shouldn't be liable to being updated to fit the needs of the times, that's how we got the Civil Rights Act and both prohibition and the removal of prohibition


That's a fair point. But it comes back to wether people are willing to open that door. As divided people are on this, I don't see it happening anytime soon. The best we can hope for is individual states to enforce their own policies for background checks and whatnot.


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## DarthDub (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> It's been changed 27 times. I think scratching out a really outdated one won't be a issue.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Just imagine if Staff had guns. Less people would've died.


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## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> Just imagine if Staff had guns. Less people would've died.


Imagine the possibility for no one would need a gun and schools was safe as it is in other countries except yours.


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## DarthDub (Feb 15, 2018)

linuxares said:


> Imagine the possibility for no one would need a gun and schools was safe as it is in other countries except yours.


I need a gun to defend myself from lunatics like that school shooter. It's not that simple.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> Just imagine if Staff had guns. Less people would've died.


I've asked this so many fucking times and no one's graced me with an answer; what happens when either
a) staff go off the wall and shoot up a school with their school-issued gun, or
b) staff try to take down a would-be shooter and instead escalate the situation, and/or kids get in the crossfire


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> I need a gun to defend myself from lunatics like that school shooter. It's not that simple.


I don't need a gun to defend me from lunatics. Try to go a self defense course?


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 15, 2018)

I feel I need to make this point, I agree the guns need to go. I just don't think they ever will. Most of these school shootings are committed by minors (not this one mind you). I think when a minor commits a crime so grievous that it warrants them being tried as an adult, the parents should be put on trial too. After all, their children are their responsibility. What factors did they contribute to allow their child to commit the crime, or become a criminal in the first place? Often these kids use their family members weapons. Start holding parents accountable and see how often stuff like this happens.


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## DarthDub (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I've asked this so many fucking times and no one's graced me with an answer; what happens when either
> a) staff go off the wall and shoot up a school with their school-issued gun, or
> b) staff try to take down a would-be shooter and instead escalate the situation, and/or kids get in the crossfire


Let's talk about the staff member that jumped in front of students to take shots from the school shooter. If he had a gun, it would've ended right there. I don't get why you're against Staff being properly trained when we have so many school shootings. You're part of the problem if you think we should have Gun-Free Zones cause that's where most people die from gun violence.


----------



## linuxares (Feb 15, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> Let's talk about the staff member that jumped in front of students to take shots from the school shooter. If he had a gun, it would've ended right there. I don't get why you're against Staff being properly trained when we have so many school shootings. You're part of the problem if you think we should have Gun-Free Zones use that's where most people die from gun violence.


I would say YOU are a part of the problem. If the guy never had a gun to begin with, this most likely wouldn't have happened. Just look once again at Australia. All I hear is people defending stuff, stuff we can live without.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Often these kids use their family members weapons. Start holding parents accountable and see how often stuff like this happens.


Oh I totally agree. If you prosecute the owner of the gun as well as the person who committed the crime, I guarantee we would see a lot higher gun safety practices and lower suicide rates/child living at home committing shootings

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DarthDub said:


> Let's talk about the staff member that jumped in front of students to take shots from the school shooter. If he had a gun, it would've ended right there. I don't get why you're against Staff being properly trained when we have so many school shootings. You're part of the problem if you think we should have Gun-Free Zones cause that's where most people die from gun violence.


Staff should be properly trained to handle disaster situations, but they should never have firearms unless they're security. That's a disaster waiting to happen for so many reasons

And I'm baffled by how you managed to STILL not answer my question


----------



## Chris_Highwind (Feb 15, 2018)

The sad reality is that nothing will happen. The killer will get a sentence, people will lament about his mental issues, then we move on to the next shooting. The conservatives will continue to be paid to claim that protesting guns means you hate everything that America represents, and their supporters will blindly agree with them and filter out any opinions that does not match theirs. 

Do I support everything conservatives support? No, even if you think the paragraph above automatically means I do because I'm not protesting against it with every word I speak. But to beg and plead for our government to ban guns is basically to bash our heads against a reinforced steel door, hoping we can force it open.


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## leonmagnus99 (Feb 15, 2018)

this is just horrible..
may the victims rest in peace , condolences to the family/friends of the victims.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

Chris_Highwind said:


> But to beg and plead for our government to ban guns is basically to bash our heads against a reinforced steel door, hoping we can force it open.


To continue off of that metaphor: eventually something's going to cave in. We're just going have to see whether it will be the head or the steel door


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## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Fwiw, I'm not posting this agressively, I'm posting it because it's informational (check the whole thread):
> https://twitter.com/AndyRichter/status/927353285245317120



Well then I redact my question and henceforth withdraw myself from this thread. Good day.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 15, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Well then I redact my question and henceforth withdraw myself from this thread. Good day.


If that's what you think will be best in the long run, more power to you, and I hope no hard feelings between us. I thought it'd be best to post that here, though, because Chicago's gun problem always inevitably comes up in these conversations and I figured it'd be good to show that it isn't like that EVERYWHERE with strict gun laws


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## the_randomizer (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> If that's what you think will be best in the long run, more power to you, and I hope no hard feelings between us. I thought it'd be best to post that here, though, because Chicago's gun problem always inevitably comes up in these conversations and I figured it'd be good to show that it isn't like that EVERYWHERE with strict gun laws



There's  no hard feelings, rest assured, I'm just sick of seeing the general fighting back and forth on social media. Nothing ever gets resolved and the only thing I seem to see is contention and constant bitching about who's right and who's wrong. Not you, not at all, it's me.


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## Dante2405 (Feb 16, 2018)

mightymuffy said:


> To be honest my first reaction, being at work, was sadness for victims and their families
> 
> ..but also a slight rolling of the eyes at the whole gun thing over on that side of the pond. The gun thing cannot be addressed so easily I admit - one can't simply wave a magic wand and make that whole complete balls up of an idea go away....
> But the rolling eyes disappeared quickly when I got home and found out the weapon was an AK15?? Just what in the name of fuck are weapons like that doing in the hands of the US public?! My mind is just fukkin boggled, semi automatics available freely?! I mean of course the common stereotype for Americans is you're all a bit stupid yeah? In the same way as every Brit has hardly any teeth? You all kick off when the rest of the world calls you thick, but.... y'know? 19 year old kid walking into a high school with a semi automatic, for the umpteenth time? Come on lads, anyone still defending the gun issue here - get a grip...



Blaming the type of weapon is usless.
Officialy Californian laws banned full charger. Wich means that most of the time you can "officially" get only 7 or 8 rounds out of a weapon... in california that is...like you can't cross a state border with a charger. #rolleyes
But anyway, having a single shot hand gun or fully load Ak15 won't make it a "better" slaughter. No guns is the only answer. If that's even possible in USA.





Owenge said:


> This happened 10 minutes away from my house so ya, scary shit


Must be taught right now. carry on!


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## 330 (Feb 16, 2018)

Usually the people who are against gun control laws because the black market won't be affected are also the same that say that Trump's wall will be very useful against illegal immigration.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 16, 2018)

330 said:


> Usually the people who are against gun control laws because the black market won't be affected are also the same that say that Trump's wall will be very useful against illegal immigration.


Or that abortion should be illegal
Or that transgendered individuals shouldn't be able to use the bathroom of their own gender because some might be paeophiles


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## Dante2405 (Feb 16, 2018)

330 said:


> Usually the people who are against gun control laws because the black market won't be affected are also the same that say that Trump's wall will be very useful against illegal immigration.



That's even funnier when you think about all the coyotes that get illegal immigrants in the US by diging tunnels. How a wall is supposed to stop that?


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## Olmectron (Feb 16, 2018)

Dante2405 said:


> That's even funnier when you think about all the coyotes that get illegal immigrants in the US by diging tunnels. How a wall is supposed to stop that?


Stab it all the way until the center of Earth.


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## D34DL1N3R (Feb 16, 2018)

The shooting reminds me that there's never any guarantee that you or your loved ones will come home. Could be from school, grocery shopping, work, even just something as simple as checking the mail, anything at all. Any moment anyone can be gone in an instant. Every moment it's possible that you may never see someone ever again. Always be kind, always show your love for those close to you, always be sure they know how important they are to you, always tell them you love them before they head out the door or before you wont be seeing them for a while. No matter how short of a time they might be away. It may be your last opportunity.


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## WeedZ (Feb 16, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Or that abortion should be illegal
> Or that transgendered individuals shouldn't be able to use the bathroom of their own gender because some might be paeophiles


Woah woah. It's not that some trans might be pedos. It's that there are definitely pedos in the world and all they'd have to do is dress in drag to get into a girls bathroom. One person's freedom ends where it imposes on someone else's. When the freedom to privacy for my daughter is imposed on, sorry bout ya.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 16, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Woah woah. It's not that some trans might be pedos. It's that there are definitely pedos in the world and all they'd have to do is dress in drag to get into a girls bathroom. One person's freedom ends where it imposes on someone else's. When the freedom to privacy for my daughter is imposed on, sorry bout ya.


Oh boy, I didn't want to get into this topic here, but... two questions: what's stopping pedophiles from just waltzing into the wrong gendered bathroom anyway? A sign???? Pedophiles are criminals already, a placard isn't going to stop them from just walking in
And what would denying trans people from using the correct bathroom do about pedophiles that prey on children of the same gender?

ACTUALLY, make that three: there is a HUGE social stigma to overcome by being transgender, to the point where many are beaten and murdered with alarming frequency. Do you really think that a pedophile would pretend to be in that group just to beat it off to kids a couple times before they get caught? Especially considering there's virtually no documented case of that ever happening?


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## WeedZ (Feb 16, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Oh boy, I didn't want to get into this topic here, but... two questions: what's stopping pedophiles from just waltzing into the wrong gendered bathroom anyway? A sign???? Pedophiles are criminals already, a placard isn't going to stop them from just walking in
> And what would denying trans people from using the correct bathroom do about pedophiles that prey on children of the same gender?
> 
> ACTUALLY, make that three: there is a HUGE social stigma to overcome by being transgender, to the point where many are beaten and murdered with alarming frequency. Do you really think that a pedophile would pretend to be in that group just to beat it off to kids a couple times before they get caught? Especially considering there's virtually no documented case of that ever happening?


Yeah, this isn't really the place, but I'll respond to your questions.

1 when we see someone walking into the wrong bathroom people become alerted. It's not the norm. It gains attention. Most trans people are visibly trans. So there's the social alertness

2 it won't do anything about pedos that target the same gender.

3 there's no documented case because there's only rare places that allow trans to use alternate bathrooms. As to the first part, I used to work for Walmart in highschool where some stuff went down. You'd be surprised what pedos would do. I could share some fucked up stories.

I think if there's anymore debate we should make another thread.


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## hobbledehoy899 (Feb 16, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> He isn't crazy and knew exactly what he was doing. It was premeditated.


You think crazy people can't think?


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## CallmeBerto (Feb 16, 2018)

So the gun thing has been on mind for years. While taking away guns would solve the issue it is not possible unless there is a no bs massive massive killing with over 1000+ people. 

The main problem is 2 fold; A. Convincing the average American to give up their guns. I mean whenever there is even a talk about guns laws being changed...gun sales go up by a lot. People have a strong attachment to the 2nd amendment.

B. We have A LOT of guns I mean a fuck ton. I just don't see how the hell we can remove them all. Other countries have done buy back but they weren't as attached to their guns like we were. Even if you made it mandatory not going to happen.

Also NRA pays off the politicians a lot. The only solution I see is taking away the second amendment (good luck) and increase how difficult it is to get guns. 
Then again illegal guns are soooo easy to come by sooooo.

I honestly don't see how their can be a solution until we can convince the average American that we have a problem + dealing with all the guns we already have.


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## OctolingRift (Feb 16, 2018)

Just don't give mental people guns and arm teachers.  Literally all school shootings would be for nothing if that were the case.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 16, 2018)

OctolingRift said:


> Just don't give mental people guns and arm teachers.  Literally all school shootings would be for nothing if that were the case.





TotalInsanity4 said:


> I've asked this so many fucking times and no one's graced me with an answer; what happens when either
> a) staff go off the wall and shoot up a school with their school-issued gun, or
> b) staff try to take down a would-be shooter and instead escalate the situation, and/or kids get in the crossfire


----------



## Navonod (Feb 16, 2018)

hobbledehoy899 said:


> You think crazy people can't think?


It's adorable how some people think I'm dumb.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



OctolingRift said:


> Just don't give mental people guns and arm teachers.  Literally all school shootings would be for nothing if that were the case.


I've said this like 20 times maybe on this forum. Don't even try. They can't come up with a better solution so they keep coming up with "what ifs".


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 16, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> It's adorable how some people think I'm dumb.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



The reason I've stayed out of this thread after last night is because of the collective thought process here.


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## Navonod (Feb 16, 2018)

Memoir said:


> The reason I've stayed out of this thread after last night is because of the collective thought process here.


Same. I just put this on unwatch so I wont be replying here anymore. lol


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 16, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> ]I've said this like 20 times maybe on this forum. Don't even try. They can't come up with a better solution so they keep coming up with "what ifs".


For fucks sake we've spent 20 pages telling you the better solutions, you're just not listening


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## spinal_cord (Feb 16, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> Just imagine if Staff had guns. Less people would've died.



Nope, The fact that USA has a mass shooting EVERY 3 DAYS, means that no matter how many people have guns, mass shootings still happen.



DarthDub said:


> Let's talk about the staff member that jumped in front of students to take shots from the school shooter. If he had a gun, it would've ended right there. I don't get why you're against Staff being properly trained when we have so many school shootings.



Or maybe it wouldn't have. I wouldn't trust a teacher to be fully trained to handle terrorist situations. Just as I don't trust a teacher to be fully trained in teaching.


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## Taleweaver (Feb 16, 2018)

What I find most worrying in my environment is that empathy for US citizens is steadily declining. President doofus obviously plays a part in it, but that damn stubbornness I see in reactions really adds to the fuel. Honestly: is there any way the gun lobbying group DOESN'T win?

Situation: a foreigner shoots up people
Response: buy weapons (reasoning: we cannot let the terrorists win!)

Situation: a white American shoots up people
Response: buy weapons (reasoning: we've got to arm ourselves against crazy people)

Situation: a shooting recently happened
Response: smother the debate on gun control on being "an inappropriate time"

Situation: no shooting recently happened
Response: smother the debate on gun control on "not being a priority"


The problem isn't in guns or in people. It's in culture. Like it or not, but America has a strong, vocal group of people who just want guns above anything else. And as long as they're voicing their stance the loudest (which, strange enough to foreigners, ISN'T countered by these situations), things aren't going to change.

Within the USA, that is. In my environment (which I fear goes for a large part of the rest of the world), nobody really cares anymore. We reason that if you really want your stupid freedom to bear arms so bad, then fine. Just don't expect our sympathy when you bloody well know the cost of that freedom.




spinal_cord said:


> Nope, The fact that USA has a mass shooting EVERY 3 DAYS, means that no matter how many people have guns, mass shootings still happen.


I've read something similar: that this was the 20th school shooting in the US this year. It's been a while since I couldn't believe the news anymore. This mainly proves that our local media doesn't even care about the situation anymore ("yet another shooting? Okay, how many victims? Naah...not enough. Let's bring some local news instead").


----------



## 330 (Feb 16, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Oh boy, I didn't want to get into this topic here, but... two questions: what's stopping pedophiles from just waltzing into the wrong gendered bathroom anyway? A sign???? Pedophiles are criminals already, a placard isn't going to stop them from just walking in
> And what would denying trans people from using the correct bathroom do about pedophiles that prey on children of the same gender?
> 
> ACTUALLY, make that three: there is a HUGE social stigma to overcome by being transgender, to the point where many are beaten and murdered with alarming frequency. Do you really think that a pedophile would pretend to be in that group just to beat it off to kids a couple times before they get caught? Especially considering there's virtually no documented case of that ever happening?


The idea of making gender-separated bathrooms makes no sense in the first place. Sure, male bathrooms can ideally have more space because of the urinals, but not everyone likes using them (especially non-circumcised males). They are afraid of people looking? Last time I checked, public bathrooms have private stalls. If anything, it's males that use urinals that should be afraid of being stared at. A gender keeps the place cleaner? Not only that's sexist, but it's simply not true. The internet is full of stories about women's bathrooms being filled with piss because many women don't want to sit on the toilet due to germs but have a shitty aim.

Bottomline: make gender neutral bathrooms. Maybe use the remaining one for handicapped people so they will always find a free space for them.






Getting back in topic, I wouldn't feel safe knowing that teachers have guns. Teachers should teach, not being prepared for offense in case of a shooting. What's next, getting them armor?


----------



## ComeTurismO (Feb 16, 2018)

Australia's never had a mass-shooting in over a decade. Gee, I wonder what is making that happen? 

There's been several mass shootings in the U.S., a Western country. Many people did not do anything except "thoughts and prayers" to the victims.  Is that really helping?


----------



## SG854 (Feb 16, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm asking the same question because you keep giving the same answer that's completely contradictory to what you've been saying this whole thread, yet you retain your original stance
> 
> You're right about the US not being the highest in gun related deaths (although we _are_ number 11, and the countries we come behind aren't exactly something to be proud of either), but we _are _the 2nd highest by gun-related suicide, and as far as I can tell, we're the country with the most annual mass shootings as well. No, we're obviously not "a bunch of Rambos," and yes, gun violence obviously is a global concern and not just an American one, but the rate of mass shootings like this is a _uniquely_ American (United States) problem



Not true we are actually ranked 29 when we consider gun deaths per 100,000. Heres a chart of all the countries here. And there are quite a few countries with no data at all so USA may actually be lower than 29, maybe 33 or 37?

United States gun homicides per 100,000 is *2.97*. With average fire arms per 100 people being *88.8*. So USA is gun crazy.

In comparison to

Honduras homicides per 100,00 *68.43*. Fire arms ownership per 100 *6.2*.
El Salvador homicides *39.9*. Fire arms ownership *5.8*.
Jamaica homicides *39.4*. Fire arms* 8.1*.
Venezuela homicides *38.97*. Fire arms *10.7*.

Country lower homicides but higher gun ownership than top 28.

Switzerland homicides *0.77*. Fire arms ownership *45.7*.
Canada homicides *0.51*. Fire arms *30.8*.
Belgium homicides *0.68*. Fire arms *17.2*.
Fineland homicides *0.45*. fire arms *45.3*.
Cyprus homicides *0.46*. Fire arms *36.4*.
Serbia homicides *0.46*. Fire arms *37.8*.
Sweden homicides *0.41*. Fire arms *31.7*.
Germany homicides* 0.19*. Fire arms *30.3*.
And there are many more.

The top 28 countries on the list having gun owner ship far less than the United States all being under *15.0*, but higher gun homicides, except for 1 country Panama being *21.7 *gun ownership. Compare these countries to USA gun ownership 88.8 and deaths per 100,000 2.97 and USA is far tamer. More gun ownership but a good chunk of people people aren't going on deadly rampages. Yes when you compare it to other countries with similar economic situations USA is one of the worst in comparison, but considering the high gun ownership greatly increasing likely hood of gun deaths and USA is pretty tame compared to top 28. Compared to countries with higher gun ownership but less homicides it does seem USA is more deadly though.

Of course wars can over inflate deaths so this data is limited and doesn't tell other factors. And it doesn't look to see if areas with higher guns ownership equals to higher deaths. But without a heavy look at data a quick look shows this is not always the case. And this isn't me saying i'm for or against guns I'm just putting data that lots aren't considering.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 16, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Not true we are actually ranked 29 when we consider gun deaths per 100,000. Heres a chart of all the countries here. And there are quite a few countries with no data at all so USA may actually be lower than 29, maybe 33 or 37?
> 
> United States gun homicides per 100,000 is *2.97*. With average fire arms per 100 people being *88.8*. So USA is gun crazy.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure about the rest of the data (I'd have to look into it), but I know right now that both Sweden and Switzerland can be discarded because they have compulsory military service for all males and allow them to take their weapons home, but do NOT allow them to have ammunition. It also must be considered that the US is unique in the sense that aside from urban centers, our population is very spread out, whereas in at least European countries the populous is very dense, which makes killing more people a lot easier


----------



## CallmeBerto (Feb 16, 2018)

Some history on how we got here - 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Just got done watching all of it an he basically said (towards the end) that changes to the gun laws are impossible. While I don't 100% agree I do see his point. Like I said before you have to start with the average American and convince them we need some kind of change. I honestly have no idea how to do that though.


----------



## Taleweaver (Feb 16, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Not true we are actually ranked 29 when we consider gun deaths per 100,000. Heres a chart of all the countries here. And there are quite a few countries with no data at all so USA may actually be lower than 29, maybe 33 or 37?
> 
> United States gun homicides per 100,000 is *2.97*. With average fire arms per 100 people being *88.8*. So USA is gun crazy.
> 
> ...


Can't say much on other countries, but I honestly didn't believe Belgium's number (no freaking way that there's about 1 gun for every 5 people). So I checked a bit...here...

*Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population*
ChartThe estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) per 100 people in Belgium is 

2015: 6.86
2010: 8.18
2006: 18.98
2005: 17.2

In other words: your numbers are, at least what Belgium's concerned, well over ten years old and about a third of that value.


----------



## Hanafuda (Feb 16, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Not true we are actually ranked 29 when we consider gun deaths per 100,000. Heres a chart of all the countries here. And there are quite a few countries with no data at all so USA may actually be lower than 29, maybe 33 or 37?
> 
> United States gun homicides per 100,000 is *2.97*. With average fire arms per 100 people being *88.8*. So USA is gun crazy.
> 
> ...




Imagine what the stats for the USA would be if you discounted the violence in New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, and St. Louis, and other Democrat-majority urban centers. The USA's image is skewed by these metro murder outliers.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Imagine what the stats for the USA would be if you discounted the violence in New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, and St. Louis, and other Democrat-majority urban centers. The USA's image is skewed by these metro murder outliers.


Then you leave out Republican controlled areas with even more violence and higher murder rates like St Louis and Birmingham.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Guys, I thought it sounded a little odd that there would be 18 shootings in a few months. Actually, it sounded like bullshit. I looked into it. There were like 3 actual attacks. The rest were suicides on school grounds (some not even during school hours) where no one else was injured and accidental discharges of weapons, most of which had no injuries. One of those was actually a police training school or some shit.

There shouldn't be any shootings, but we also shouldn't betray them as a common occurrence for the sake of gun control. It could condition people to accepting these attacks as normal and cause even more incidents.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> There shouldn't be any shootings, but we also shouldn't betray them as a common occurrence for the sake of gun control. It could condition people to accepting these attacks as normal and cause even more incidents.


It depends on which source you're looking at for how they count incidents.  America leads total gun deaths every year because we have the most guns.  Accidents and suicides are increasingly problematic as we mix gun issues with the opioid crisis.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> It depends on which source you're looking at for how they count incidents.  America leads total gun deaths every year because we have the most guns.  Accidents and suicides are increasingly problematic as we mix gun issues with the opioid crisis.


My definition of school shooting is a person with intent, packing a weapon, going into a school with the goal of shooting and killing people. To put accidents and suicides under that column is disingenuous and quite frankly bullshit. It's purposeful embellishment with the intent to misinform people for the sake of pushing one's own agenda. The worst kind of backhanded political trickery. I consider it evil.


----------



## Hanafuda (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Then you leave out Republican controlled areas with even more violence and higher murder rates like St Louis and Birmingham.



I wasn't talking about any States as whole. Just the cities. Just the areas of highest crime per capita.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I wasn't talking about any States as whole. Just the cities. Just the areas of highest crime per capita.


St Louis and Birmingham aren't states


----------



## Hanafuda (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> St Louis and Birmingham aren't states



Yeah that's what I mean. Missouri and Alabama may lean Republican as a whole but those cities don't.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> My definition of school shooting is a person with intent, packing a weapon, going into a school with the goal of shooting and killing people. To put accidents and suicides under that column is disingenuous and quite frankly bullshit. It's purposeful embellishment with the intent to misinform people for the sake of pushing one's own agenda. The worst kind of backhanded political trickery. I consider it evil.


Sure, but not every source is going to report those deaths as school shootings (although they technically are).  Mass shootings would be a better specifier to use if you want to guarantee more than one person involved.

Besides, what does it say about the state America's in when "just one" death isn't thought of as good enough to go in the stats?  Has to be at least ten people dead here to count for anything apparently, and we still won't do anything about it.  Just add it to the yearly total and keep watching.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Sure, but not every source is going to report those deaths as school shootings (although they technically are).  Mass shootings would be a better specifier to use if you want to guarantee more than one person involved.


That still wouldn't justify accidental discharges with no injuries as a "shooting". Like I said, one was a training facility for the use of firearms. That definition is way too broad.

The only sources to report those as "shootings" are the ones pushing for gun control and the ones already misinformed. Now that we know better, we personally can continue the debate without misinforming others. If someone wants to talk about the misuse of firearms or lack of safety measures when arguing for gun control, then I'm game.

But honestly, we all know "school shooting" in the minds of most normal people is synonymous with mass murder. I don't loosen the reasonable definition of a word to make a point. Because, like I said, it's disingenuous. Doing so purposefully takes away from your credibility.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Sure, but not every source is going to report those deaths as school shootings (although they technically are).  Mass shootings would be a better specifier to use if you want to guarantee more than one person involved.
> 
> Besides, what does it say about the state America's in when "just one" death isn't thought of as good enough to go in the stats?  Has to be at least ten people dead here to count for anything apparently, and we still won't do anything about it.  Just add it to the yearly total and keep watching.


They don't refer to students hanging themselves at school as "School Hangings"... Why would a suicide or accidental discharge be a "School Shooting".. Not seeing the logic here.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> But honestly, we all know "school shooting" in the minds of most normal people is synonymous with mass murder. I don't loosen the reasonable definition of a word to make a point. Because, like I said, it's disingenuous. Doing so purposefully takes away from your credibility.


All it means is that the definition of school shooting is different than what you thought it was.  It's literally any shooting that occurs at a school.  That doesn't mean they're being disingenuous, it means this is a common misconception.

The news routinely uses "shooting" or "shootout" for incidents involving only one victim.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> All it means is that the definition of school shooting is different than what you thought it was.  It's literally any shooting that occurs at a school.


When a huge majority of people don't consider accidental discharges or firing without the intent of hurting others as a shooting and you know the average person wouldn't, but you report that anyway.. that makes you a liar. The key component here is purpose. They *purposefully* misinformed.

Now go tell several million people they had the wrong idea about what "shooting" means


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> When a huge majority of people don't consider accidental discharges or firing without the intent of hurting others as a shooting and you know the average person wouldn't, but you report that anyway.. that makes you a liar. The key component here is purpose. They *purposefully* misinformed.


I don't know what better descriptor you want them to use for these incidents.  "Suicide by gun at school?"  It's literally just a different way of saying "school shooting."  You might not like how they phrase it, but it doesn't make it incorrect.

"Shooting" doesn't imply more than one victim on its own, and "school" is just the place it occured.  We only assume more than one victim right off the bat in America because of how common mass murder has become.  It doesn't mean we should ignore single-victim gun incidents.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I don't know what better descriptor you want them to use for these incidents.  "Suicide by gun at school?"  It's literally just a different way of saying "school shooting."  You might not like how they phrase it, but it doesn't make it incorrect.





Memoir said:


> They don't refer to students hanging themselves at school as "School Hangings"... Why would a suicide or accidental discharge be a "School Shooting".. Not seeing the logic here.


They reported that with the Florida incident. There was no reason to because they aren't the same thing. If we had 100 accidental discharges in a firing range at a police academy where on a back wall built to catch stray bullets was hit, did we have 100 school shootings? Would you report that as a crisis? No, so you can't add them to a real crisis for embellishment.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> They reported that with the Florida incident. There was no reason to because they aren't the same thing. If we had 100 accidental discharges in a firing range at a police academy where on a back wall built to catch stray bullets was hit, did we have 100 school shootings? Would you report that as a crisis? No, so you can't add them to a real crisis for embellishment.


What you're suggesting is ignoring gun deaths in schools when there's only a single victim.  There's no other statistic they would fall under in this case.  As much as we'd like to do that in America to deflate our gun death numbers some, it seems extremely unethical.


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 17, 2018)

Meanwhile in Afghanistan, Iraq, Mexico, Syria more than 10,000 deaths (per country)  in 2017 alone. Why don't we stop to offer their families condolences ? 
Oh wait they are poor and underprivileged they don't count right?  
Damn upper middle class sympathy. 
PUSSIES!!!!


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> Meanwhile in Afghanistan, Iraq, Mexico, Syria more than 10,000 deaths (per country)  in 2017 alone. Why don't we stop to offer their families condolences ?
> Oh wait they are poor and underprivileged they don't count right?
> Damn upper middle class sympathy.
> PUSSIES!!!!


We can't even solve our own problems and you're stupid enough to expect us to solve the world's problems.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> What you're suggesting is ignoring gun deaths in schools when there's only a single victim.  There's no other statistic they would fall under in this case.  As much as we'd like to do that in America to deflate our gun death numbers some, it seems extremely unethical.


What's unethical is comparing non-injuries, suicides, and mass murder under a blanket term that's been skewed. They are different things that need to be handled differently. The non-injuries take away from the seriousness of suicide and murder. 

"Oh man, your friends were murdered and you had to walk over their dead bodies to get to safety? I know what you mean, I accidentally bumped my gun in training the other day and could of hit someone."


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> This is only because you're not taking the discharge of a weapon on school grounds seriously.  If you had been involved in any such incident I'm sure your viewpoint would be different on the matter.


I do take it seriously, but they're different. Suicide is purely a mental health issue. Not a gun control issue. If someone kills themself at school by any other means it's just a suicide. If they shot themselves it's on par with a school shooting? 

That doesn't make sense, unless your only concern is gun control and you want to find any example you can to reenforce your stance. Those cases go with the crisis of suicide, you can't have those for your mass murder arguement. They're handling that already in a way that isn't applicable to gun control.

Accidental discharges are a safety concern, not a gun control issue. Those were officers and security that accidentally discharged. How do you justify that as a gun control crisis?


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> I do take it seriously, but they're different. Suicide is purely a mental health issue. Not a gun control issue. If someone kills themself at school by any other means it's just a suicide. If they shot themselves it's on par with a school shooting?
> 
> That doesn't make sense, unless your only concern is gun control and you want to find any example you can to reenforce your stance. Those cases go with the crisis of suicide, you can't have those for your mass murder arguement. They're handling that already in a way that isn't applicable to gun control.
> 
> Accidental discharges are a safety concern, not a gun control issue. Those were officers and security that accidentally discharged. How do you justify that as a gun control crisis?



I would agree with this also mass murder could have a mental health angle too it. I dont know much of the facts about this case but most of the time, the kids are from a shitty background,get bullied at school and sometimes even by teachers, I'm not saying its right to go shooting shit up, but every body has a breaking point.


----------



## WeedZ (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> I would agree with this also mass murder could have a mental health angle too it. I dont know much of the facts about this case but most of the time, the kids are from a shitty background,get bullied at school and sometimes even by teachers, I'm not saying its right to go shooting shit up, but every body has a breaking point.


True, there is a mental health concern with mass murder that should be looked at, but gun control is ok here. They want to hurt and kill people, we should do what we can to make that not happen.

In the case of suicide however, it's purely mental health. A suicidal person will use anything to kill themself, guns or not. They have no intention of hurting anyone else. Gun control doesn't do anything here.


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 17, 2018)

I think gun control is okay also, Maybe the police are a little trigger happy over there, but apart from that, Guns are ultimately to protect you from an oppressive ruling government, which in my opinion is a good thing,the more scared the government our of their people the better.
Also you can hear a crazed gunman after the first shot has been fired, But a crazy person with a knife can injure 15/20 people before any body knows whats causing the panic and screams.
Some people might even be drawn to the screams, thinking they can help, only to find themselves actually walking into danger.

The problem isn't guns, unfortunately people use these kind of things as a platform to spearhead their agenda and in some cases may even be a false flag to create a division on the issue


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Suicide is purely a mental health issue. Not a gun control issue.


This is the exact same thing that's said about murders with guns.  What does it matter if we're not going to fix mental health *or* gun control issues?  It's all the same perfect storm of institutional failures continuing to cause the problems.


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> This is the exact same thing that's said about murders with guns.  What does it matter if we're not going to fix mental health *or* gun control issues?  It's all the same perfect storm of institutional failures continuing to cause the problems.


what is there to fix about Gun control ? You dont really make any decent argument !! you are just saying stuff that has no ground in an argument.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

if everyone is diabetic do you ban Ice cream for everyone ? or do you educate people on how to live a healthy lifestyle?


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> what is there to fix about Gun control ? You dont really make any decent argument !! you are just saying stuff that has no ground in an argument.


What isn't there to fix about gun control would be a better question.  Background check loopholes, bump stock legality, regulation to make sure the mentally ill can no longer get guns.  Just to name a few problems with the current system.  Then you've got predatory groups like the NRA which push for gun sales hardest after every mass shooting.  Checks need to be put in place.


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> What isn't there to fix about gun control would be a better question.  Background check loopholes, bump stock legality, regulation to make sure the mentally ill can no longer get guns.  Just to name a few problems with the current system.  Then you've got predatory groups like the NRA which push for gun sales hardest after every mass shooting.  Checks need to be put in place.



Maybe if you used guns as they were intended by your forefathers, you wouldn't have such a massive gap in equality, Class, colour, creed & religion and wealth, the very things the founders of America were trying to avoid. 
But someone swooped in killed the good guys and divided a nation. Just as 'They've' done before. 
Your founders were trying to protect you from all of that.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> Maybe if you used guns as they were intended by your forefathers, you wouldn't have such a massive gap in equality, Class, colour, creed & religion and wealth, the very things the founders of America were trying to avoid.
> But someone swooped in killed the good guys and divided a nation. Just as 'They've' done before.
> Your founders were trying to protect you from all of that.


The opportunity to use our weak-ass guns to overthrow the government has long since passed.  It's not a useful idea to pitch any more, it's just a redneck wetdream whenever a Democrat is president, and all it does is feed into the gun (obsession) culture more.


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The opportunity to use our weak-ass guns to overthrow the government has long since passed.  It's not a useful idea to pitch any more, it's just a redneck wetdream whenever a Democrat is president, and all it does is feed into the gun (obsession) culture more.


Your statements just get weaker and dumber, 
The people will rise again and i'm sure you wont have long to wait. But you keep worrying and being distracted by trivial subjects see what good comes of it.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> Your statements just get weaker and dumber,
> The people will rise again and i'm sure you wont have long to wait. But you keep worrying and being distracted by trivial subjects see what good comes of it.


You're delusional, there's no trigger point for the people.  Americans are mostly fat and complacent.  Trump's been the biggest disruption to our way of life in a long time, but we're still willing to let the gears of justice turn.

Besides, when you say "the people will rise again" in this context, all you mean is, "there will be more gun deaths."  Not helping your own case.  This level of paranoia leads to police shootings.


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> You're delusional, there's no trigger point for the people.  Americans are mostly fat and complacent.  Trump's been the biggest disruption to our way of life in a long time, but we're still willing to let the gears of justice turn.
> 
> Besides, when you say "the people will rise again" in this context, all you mean is, "there will be more gun deaths."  Not helping your own case.  This level of paranoia leads to police shootings.


wow way to go stereo typing your own people, you clearly have a big loving heart and really Care about the situation at hand.
You display yourself here as if you have some kind of agenda, yet you pretend you care. I think you should follow your own arguments a little better.
 oh wait you didnt present any argument yet!!


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> wow way to go stereo typing your own people


It's not a stereotype, we've all been to Wal-Mart.



Hi-Dro said:


> You display yourself here as if you have some kind of agenda, yet you pretend you care. I think you should follow your own arguments a little better.


I have opinions, just like you.  Except yours seem to be more extremist.  And that doesn't prevent me from caring about American lives lost, nor does the obesity epidemic.


----------



## 330 (Feb 17, 2018)

I think the biggest problem here is comparing the USA with single countries. The USA is a combination of 50 states. It would make much more sense to compare it to the whole Europe rather than just one country.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 17, 2018)

330 said:


> I think the biggest problem here is comparing the USA with single countries. The USA is a combination of 50 states. It would make much more sense to compare it to the whole Europe rather than just one country.


Lol, that'd be a good way to artificially decrease our gun death numbers, but it'd probably just be easier to put together ~5 countries with zero gun deaths per year and compare them to America if you're wanting to go by landmass.

Some headlines from today:

"Hundreds protest outside NRA headquarters following Florida school shooting"

http://abcnews.go.com/US/hundreds-protest-nra-headquarters-florida-school-shooting/story?id=53160714

"‘When will they love their kids more than their guns,’ an Australian priest asks Americans"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eir-guns-an-australian-priest-asks-americans/

"After Florida, I see the NRA as nothing less than a terrorist organization"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...da-school-shooting-nra?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

King County GOP Chair Gets E-mail about Gun Control, Responds "Do Not Ever Contact Me Again"

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/20...control-responds-do-not-ever-contact-me-again


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Lol, that'd be a good way to artificially decrease our gun death numbers, but it'd probably just be easier to put together ~5 countries with zero gun deaths per year and compare them to America if you're wanting to go by landmass.
> 
> Some headlines from today:
> 
> ...



What a great way to push your agenda through the medium of mainstream media, are you to stupid to present your own argument ?


----------



## Xzi (Feb 18, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> What a great way to push your agenda through the medium of mainstream media, are you to stupid to present your own argument ?


I'm pretty sure neither of us are journalists, so "go write your own article/cover events yourself" is a stupid thing to say.

Besides, I used all different sources.  I'm pretty sure you'd whine about anything I post that you disagree with, so obviously I can't please everybody.

I didn't even post the most political one, but you've inspired me:

"Trump Slammed for Lack of Empathy After Thumbs up Pictures With Florida Shooting First Responders"

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-slamm...thumbs-pictures-florida-shooting-first-810167


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I'm pretty sure neither of us are journalists, so "go write your own article/cover events yourself" is a stupid thing to say.


lol is that what I said ? 
is this how you debate in real life ?
you really are just stupid, and very comical. Albeit its not your intention.


----------



## Hi-Dro (Feb 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Yeah, it is you dipshit.  You suggested I'm not allowed to cite articles, only "form my own argument."  Maybe if your grammar and formatting didn't blow you could get your points across more succinctly.


Now I understand why you want guns to be banned, It's because you don't like them being pointed at you.
You are funny chap.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 18, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> Now I understand why you want guns to be banned, It's because you don't like them being pointed at you.
> You are funny chap.


If I had had a gun pointed at me, I probably would want them banned.  Since you're a moron with the attention span of a goldfish, you probably don't realize that I own guns myself, as I've posted in this thread previously.  Apparently you're just another brainwashed NRA shitkicker who doesn't understand subtlety and thinks that any form of gun control is the same as "banning guns."


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 18, 2018)

Hi-Dro said:


> I think gun control is okay also, Maybe the police are a little trigger happy over there, but apart from that, Guns are ultimately to protect you from an oppressive ruling government, which in my opinion is a good thing,the more scared the government our of their people the better.


In what universe would someone owning a rifle do literally anything against the national armory?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Hi-Dro said:


> What a great way to push your agenda through the medium of mainstream media, are you to stupid to present your own argument ?


I wonder what news sources YOU digest from day to do /s


----------



## the_randomizer (Feb 18, 2018)

Okay, I'm only saying this once: 

I'm all for responsible firearm ownership, BUT, with several caveats. The owner has to go through a strict background check, needs to be assessed for mental well being, cannot possess semi or fully-automatic firearms. Moreover, they must be trained for safety and being able to use it properly. Firearms are only as lethal as their users, people who are current mentally unstable should all have their firearms and ammunition immediately seized and penalized. I don't think all should be banned, but extremely strict regulations need to be implemented. Will it happen? I don't see that because neither side can't seem to agree on something without the other throwing a whiny bitching contest. So yeah, throw that out the window. 

I said my two cents.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Okay, I'm only saying this once:
> 
> I'm all for responsible firearm ownership, BUT, with several caveats. The owner has to go through a strict background check, needs to be assessed for mental well being, cannot possess semi or fully-automatic firearms. Moreover, they must be trained for safety and being able to use it properly. Firearms are only as lethal as their users, people who are current mentally unstable should all have their firearms and ammunition immediately seized and penalized. I don't think all should be banned, but extremely strict regulations need to be implemented. Will it happen? I don't see that because neither side can't seem to agree on something without the other throwing a whiny bitching contest. So yeah, throw that out the window.
> 
> I said my two cents.


They also need to be checked for radicalization in their background. Supposedly this kid had a shitton of calls to the FBI against him and had joined a white supremacist militia called the "Republic of Florida"


----------



## Joe88 (Feb 18, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> and had joined a white supremacist militia called the "Republic of Florida"


That was confirmed to be fake
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/florida-shooting-white-nationalists-415672


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 18, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> That was confirmed to be fake
> https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/florida-shooting-white-nationalists-415672


Ah, interesting

*reads article*

Of COURSE it would be 4chan's fault

All things considered, though, that doesn't really change the point of my post much, other than reasoning. Cruz was part of a group chat at the school where he said a lot of racist and anti-Semitic things, even saying that he would personally cut Mexicans' necks iirc. This was NOT something that just happened out of the blue, and yet it was allowed to happen

I'd also ask everyone following this thread to watch this, if you haven't already:


----------



## kuwanger (Feb 22, 2018)

Trump suggests arming teachers as a solution to the issue of school shootings.  I've got a suggestion in return.  We can remove all that pesky Secret Service guarding the President and just let the President carry a gun.  Not only will that save a good bit of money, I'm sure then our President assassination problem will just solve itself.  Similarly, we really don't need that degree of presence that is the U.S. Capitol Police.  I mean, if we all have a right to bare arms, certainly that applies on the floor of the U.S. Senate and House.  If any representative feels a need for protection, they can always just carry a gun.

I mean, the obvious problem to the issue of too many bad people with guns is more guns.  Just like whenever we have a problem with alcoholic drivers, we recommend more cars and alcohol.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Feb 22, 2018)

To be honest arming teachers is a stupid idea.

Teacher are formed to teach, not to shot, they can control such a situation as well as a Computer Engineer can build an apartment building. And the same as all the apartment building residents, the Computer Engineer included, would die after it collapses, teachers with guns would also lead to catastrophe.

For gods sake, stop being a stingy piece of shit and put trained security forces around schools. Security forces are trained to control this kind of situation appropriately, using guns if required. Teachers are trained to teach. Don't make a Computer Engineer do the work of an Architect!

You would be making teachers responsible of a task they are not apt to take upon their shoulders, and also you will be distracting them from their real task, teaching, and TBH schooling in America is pretty bad already as it is.


----------



## kuwanger (Feb 22, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> For gods sake, stop being a stingy piece of shit and put trained security forces around schools.



And malls.  And pools.  And churches.  Anywhere that children gather, there will always be security forces there!  If that doesn't sound like a dystopia, I don't know what does.  But it'll be a job creator!  Just like the TSA.  Not good enough to pat down people at the airport?  Stand around children with a gun all day!


----------



## Localhorst86 (Feb 22, 2018)

Apparently the only way to stop people bringing guns to school is by having them already there in the first place.
How long do you think it'll take for 

a) a teacher accidentally shooting someone because of mishandling the gun
b) a teacher accidentally shooting someone because they did not assess the situation correctly
c) a student shooting someone because they were able to get the gun from the teacher (either by force or negligence)
d) a teacher purposely going on a rampage and shooting up some kids or colleagues

Place your bets.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Feb 22, 2018)

kuwanger said:


> And malls.  And pools.  And churches.  Anywhere that children gather, there will always be security forces there!  If that doesn't sound like a dystopia, I don't know what does.  But it'll be a job creator!  Just like the TSA.  Not good enough to pat down people at the airport?  Stand around children with a gun all day!


I think the current state of American society sounds more like a dystopia already TBH.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 22, 2018)

Localhorst86 said:


> Apparently the only way to stop people bringing guns to school is by having them already there in the first place.
> How long do you think it'll take for
> 
> a) a teacher accidentally shooting someone because of mishandling the gun
> ...


Oh look the questions I've been asking throughout this whole thread are being asked by a different person now. Will the "teachers must be armed!" gun nuts actually answer them this time?? Place your bets!


----------



## Xzi (Feb 22, 2018)

This might be a new record for Trump's dementia kicking in:

Trump cries 'Fake News' on CNN and NBC saying he'd arm teachers, then says arming teachers would 'solve the problem instantly'

http://www.businessinsider.com/trum...nbc-coverage-concealed-carry-2018-2?r=UK&IR=T

Also fun times (/s), some of the Florida shooting survivors are receiving death threats because of right-wing conspiracies claiming they're "crisis actors."

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...oting-survivors-mother-we-have-received-death


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 1, 2018)

Localhorst86 said:


> Apparently the only way to stop people bringing guns to school is by having them already there in the first place.
> How long do you think it'll take for
> 
> a) a teacher accidentally shooting someone because of mishandling the gun
> ...


A week, give or take


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## DeadlyFoez (Mar 1, 2018)

kuwanger said:


> ... I'm sure then our President assassination problem will just solve itself.


Hope you enjoy being on a watch list for that asshole comment.


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## Xzi (Mar 1, 2018)

So uhh...Trump endorsed seizing guns without due process:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/trump-endorses-pre-due-process-gun-confiscation.html

And we were told Obama and Hillary would be the ones coming for our guns.  Trump supporters must be mad confused right about now.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> So uhh...Trump endorsed seizing guns without due process:
> 
> https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/02/trump-endorses-pre-due-process-gun-confiscation.html
> 
> And we were told Obama and Hillary would be the ones coming for our guns.  Trump supporters must be mad confused right about now.


That feeling when Trump was the change we wanted to see all along

(Doesn't change the fact that he's still a piece of shit and treats people as such, but hey, if he's going to start the ball on getting the second amendment revised, I'll play his game for a bit)


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Mar 1, 2018)

It's kinda tempting to tease Trump, I'll admit, but I'll commend him for finally endorsing common sense gun control measures. 

(Except for the taking people's guns part. That's too extreme)


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## Xzi (Mar 1, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> That feeling when Trump was the change we wanted to see all along
> 
> (Doesn't change the fact that he's still a piece of shit and treats people as such, but hey, if he's going to start the ball on getting the second amendment revised, I'll play his game for a bit)


I'm sure his advisors will get him back on track as a pro-gun yahoo soon enough, it's just amazing to me that people can't see how mentally damaged Trump is when he makes statements like these publicly.  It's obviously very easy to guide his line of thought in any direction because he has the memory and attention span of a goldfish.

I'd be a little worried about any president suggesting they're going to take away guns without due process.  If I thought Trump was actually going to follow through on it I'd probably buy more guns TBH, he leans a bit too fascist dictator for comfort.


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## Tigran (Mar 1, 2018)

So um... guns in the classroom.. Great idea.

http://time.com/5179477/dalton-high-school-shooting/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...after-reports-shots-fired-at-high-school.html

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/28/us/georgia-dalton-high-school-teacher-gunfire/index.html

Teacher starts shooting in school.

Even posted from several sources so someone can't say "Liberal agenda!"


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Mar 1, 2018)

Tigran said:


> So um... guns in the classroom.. Great idea.
> 
> http://time.com/5179477/dalton-high-school-shooting/
> 
> ...


Liberal Agenda! It's not a Breitbart link, that's the only news outlet that tells the truth 

/s


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## Xzi (Mar 1, 2018)

Tigran said:


> So um... guns in the classroom.. Great idea.
> 
> http://time.com/5179477/dalton-high-school-shooting/
> 
> ...


This is probably the reason Trump's flip-flopping in public on the issue.  Ask him about it now and he'll say he never suggested that.


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## kuwanger (Mar 2, 2018)

DeadlyFoez said:


> Hope you enjoy being on a watch list for that asshole comment.



US Presidents Assassinated is what I was referring to.  I wouldn't be surprised if I was added to a watch list, but it's hardly an asshole comment unless it's also an asshole comment to mention our school shooting problem.  The big difference is the scale of possible targets and the relatively probably of an attack.  To that end, it sounds like on average about $800 million (in 2008 dollars) is spent per year to guard the President.

Even with that sort of money, they still failed at least 3 times.  Given the exposure, it's not too surprising.  Also, notice that nearly every modern President has been a target, although that might just as well be the ease at travel today.  It'd also be absurd to offer that level of protection for every school.  In truth, money would be better spent on the many other areas where children die from car crashes, drowning, and asthma.  There's also congenital issues (for ages 1-4) and cancer and suicide for 5-14.  Doing some math, based on CDC information it looks like the death rate for the children by homicide by gun is maybe ~14%?  There isn't a good overlap of the homicide by gun 1-17 range and the listed CDC data (the report is more about differences than raw numbers for subgroups).  In any case, the bigger death by gun risks seems to be the 1-4 range.

tl;dr If you want to look at the stats and not just go off my sarcastic comment--which was more moral indignation about how we treat one man over all children--, the Secret Service is probably a good investment because of the cost of dealing with shuffling people around to fill the role and generally the loss of confidence of having one's President assassinated.  One could argue, possibly, something similar about school shootings.  If we're really just concerned about children's lives, though, we should focus on better child restraints in cars, more research into cancer treatments (actual cures, not simply stuff that combats it), and more resources to mental health to reduce the suicides.  Oh, and pool covers.


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## Tigran (Mar 2, 2018)

kuwanger said:


> Doing some math, based on CDC information it looks like the death rate for the children is maybe ~14%?  There isn't a good overlap of the homicide by gun 1-17 range and the listed CDC data (the report is more about differences than raw numbers for subgroups).  In any case, the bigger death by gun risks seems to be the 1-4 range.



That's cause the CDC has been legally forbidden from doing any kind of research on gun violence, so you -can't- get numbers from them.


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## kuwanger (Mar 2, 2018)

Tigran said:


> That's cause the CDC has been legally forbidden from doing any kind of research on gun violence, so you -can't- get numbers from them.



Uh, yea, that's not what I mean.  If the CDC tells you that 79% of deaths are cause by n things and list n things grouping all homicides in one group and gun accidents in accidents, you'll still get some upper bound on the possible number of deaths by guns even if they can't give you exact figures on the gun deaths.  More importantly, other outlets seem to have the numbers on gun deaths.  So, I was more stating that at least a quick google to that source indicates they're more interested in change over the years and between various subgroups (which makes sense, since the CDC is about trends than anything), so I just as well can't get exact figures on cancer deaths in children from that report either.  Having said that, i don't know (but I hope) that somewhere the CDC website has that information.

Which leads to the real point:  we'd do better to invest our money in pool covers and child restraints for cars.


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## Tigran (Mar 2, 2018)

kuwanger said:


> Uh, yea, that's not what I mean.  If the CDC tells you that 79% of deaths are cause by n things and list n things grouping all homicides in one group and gun accidents in accidents, you'll still get some upper bound on the possible number of deaths by guns even if they can't give you exact figures on the gun deaths.  More importantly, other outlets seem to have the numbers on gun deaths.  So, I was more stating that at least a quick google to that source indicates they're more interested in change over the years and between various subgroups (which makes sense, since the CDC is about trends than anything), so I just as well can't get exact figures on cancer deaths in children from that report either.  Having said that, i don't know (but I hope) that somewhere the CDC website has that information.



Ah, got ya, sorry for the mis-understanding.


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## Xzi (Mar 2, 2018)

Trump has now flipped his position back to vehemently pro-gun, to the surprise of nobody:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a19056231/trump-gun-control-nra-mitch-mcconnell/

They aren't even guaranteeing universal background checks any more.


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## DeslotlCL (Mar 2, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Trump has now flipped his position back to vehemently pro-gun, to the surprise of nobody:
> 
> https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a19056231/trump-gun-control-nra-mitch-mcconnell/
> 
> They aren't even guaranteeing universal background checks any more.


Also:


> It wasn't long ago that Donald Trump declared his intention to meet Democrats halfway on a DACA fix to help kids brought here as children by undocumented immigrants to find a pathway to citizenship. That is, until he got out of the meeting, saw the coverage in the conservative infotainment bubble, and promptly abandoned any compromise entirely.


This is pretty sad and depressing...


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## Xzi (Mar 2, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Also:
> 
> This is pretty sad and depressing...


Indeed.  I saw someone put it this way: "instead of state-run media it's a media-run state."


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## Joe88 (Mar 2, 2018)

Can we please have a non-tabloid source if you are gonna post something


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 2, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> Can we please have a non-tabloid source if you are gonna post something


Agreed, actually, if you're going to post news updates let's stay away from the fringe sites/publications, because we all know they have dubious reliability


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## Xzi (Mar 2, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> Can we please have a non-tabloid source if you are gonna post something


I just picked a source at random TBH, there are several other sources for the same thing.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...p-support-for-universal-gun-background-checks

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/2/17068366/trump-guns-control-nra-meeting

But then the newsvine is being somewhat flooded by other recent events, such as Trump again attacking video games to distract from the gun issue:

http://nymag.com/selectall/2018/03/donald-trump-to-meet-with-video-game-industry-reps.html

And Trump starting a trade war with his steel tariffs, quoted as saying "trade wars are good, and easy to win."

https://www.reuters.com/article/usa...e-wars-are-good-and-easy-to-win-idUSL8N1QK2Z9

Seems like we're now seeing what Trump's only real tactic is: move in every direction at once, hope people forget about gun issues and the Russia investigation.


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## DeslotlCL (Mar 2, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I just picked a source at random TBH, there are several other sources for the same thing.
> 
> http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...p-support-for-universal-gun-background-checks
> 
> ...


In short words, and for what it looks like, he highly believe that the us people are a bunch of idiots citizens.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 2, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> In short words, and for what it looks like, he highly believe that the us people are a bunch of idiots citizens.


I'm not sure if he thinks we're idiots, or if he's just not thinking period


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## DeslotlCL (Mar 2, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm not sure if he thinks we're idiots, or if he's just not thinking period


That could be too.


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## aykay55 (Mar 2, 2018)

Well aren’t we the idiots to have elected him to begin with?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Or more specifically, the idiots who can’t figure out how to impeach him?


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## Xzi (Mar 3, 2018)

Trump is supposedly having his summit on video game violence next week, but game companies weren't aware of it happening and have no plans to attend:

https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17071586/trump-video-game-violence-summit-esa-gun-control

It's just like Trump to put the focus on something that isn't really the problem, and then do nothing about it anyway.


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## PityOnU (Mar 3, 2018)

I think that gun control laws will be very slow to change, given their cultural and economic importance in the United States.

It sounds a little heartless, but the American stance here is that this is the price of freedom. Yes, people are going to die when you make it easy to get guns. But in the overwhelming majority of cases, people will not use firearms to murder 10+ children for no reason, so it is morally contemptible to limit their "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" just for a handful of rotten apples.

Now, that's not to say that this isn't a terrible tragedy for the victims in this case (or the others), or their friends and family. But things like this are the cost of maintaining the American ethos.


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## Xzi (Mar 3, 2018)

PityOnU said:


> I think that gun control laws will be very slow to change, given their cultural and economic importance in the United States.
> 
> It sounds a little heartless, but the American stance here is that this is the price of freedom. Yes, people are going to die when you make it easy to get guns. But in the overwhelming majority of cases, people will not use firearms to murder 10+ children for no reason, so it is morally contemptible to limit their "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" just for a handful of rotten apples.
> 
> Now, that's not to say that this isn't a terrible tragedy for the victims in this case (or the others), or their friends and family. But things like this are the cost of maintaining the American ethos.


We don't need assault weapons or bump stocks.  There's no good reason either of these needs to be accessible by civilians other than to murder mass amounts of people.  It's too much firepower for hunting or target shooting.

Nobody is discussing banning guns outright, and Trump is the only person who has mentioned seizing guns without due process (I'm sure that'll play well in the mid-terms).


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## PityOnU (Mar 3, 2018)

Xzi said:


> We don't need assault weapons or bump stocks.  There's no good reason either of these needs to be accessible by civilians other than to murder mass amounts of people.  It's too much firepower for hunting or target shooting.
> 
> Nobody is discussing banning guns outright, and Trump is the only person who has mentioned seizing guns without due process (I'm sure that'll play well in the mid-terms).



I'm not saying I agree/disagree with any of this. I actually have so little experience/understanding of firearms and their policies here in the United States that I can say I have no opinion whatsoever.

However, that doesn't change the way things are, culturally-speaking. Don't forget that this is a country founded very recently by the people having a violent revolution and overthrowing their rightful government. Logic suggests that the civilian militia was able to arm themselves with the equivalent of what was being used by the British armed forces at the time.


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## Xzi (Mar 3, 2018)

PityOnU said:


> I'm not saying I agree/disagree with any of this. I actually have so little experience/understanding of firearms and their policies here in the United States that I can say I have no opinion whatsoever.
> 
> However, that doesn't change the way things are, culturally-speaking. Don't forget that this is a country founded very recently by the people having a violent revolution and overthrowing their rightful government. Logic suggests that the civilian militia was able to arm themselves with the equivalent of what was being used by the British armed forces at the time.


True, but it's impossible for civilians to arm themselves with the equivalent of what is being used by our government now.  As long as we don't sell military drones and miniaturized nukes to people, there's no reason to sell full-auto weapons either.


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## DeslotlCL (Mar 4, 2018)

surprised that no one has mentioned this, but seriously, what the fuck? 

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/po...t-ohio-middle-school-planned-school-massacre/

Imagine if the shit this little boy planned really happened, god lord help us all...


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## Xzi (Mar 4, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> surprised that no one has mentioned this, but seriously, what the fuck?
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/po...t-ohio-middle-school-planned-school-massacre/
> 
> Imagine if the shit this little boy planned really happened, god lord help us all...


Well I believe the FBI stopped another planned attack just days after that as well.  This stuff happens way too often in the US, and it's pretty much a toss-up as to whether it gets prevented or not.


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## DeslotlCL (Mar 4, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Well I believe the FBI stopped another planned attack just days after that as well.  This stuff happens way too often in the US, and it's pretty much a toss-up as to whether it gets prevented or not.


Well, this one sounds like it could have ended in a huge, huge tragedy...

I really cant understand how people do nothing in your country, how trump is doing nothing... ah yeah, conservatives and the huge amount of money from the nra that moves the government...


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## Xzi (Mar 4, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Well, this one sounds it could have ended in tragedy... i really cant understand how people do nothing in your country, how trump is doing nothing... ah yeah, conservatives and the huge amount of money from the nra that moves the goverment...


Yep, even after all his boasting to the contrary, Trump is afraid of the NRA like every other Republican.


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## qqq1 (Mar 4, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Well, this one sounds like it could have ended in huge, huge tragedy...
> 
> I really cant understand how people do nothing in your country, how trump is doing nothing... ah yeah, conservatives and the huge amount of money from the nra that moves the government...



It's hard to fix all the kids.


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## DeslotlCL (Mar 4, 2018)

qqq1 said:


> It's hard to fix all the kids.


And thd guns? Not going to blame them (at all) but, a disturbed kid with a knife going on a rampage is easier to avoid and control than one with a gun... just saying tho


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## Juggalo Debo (Mar 4, 2018)

.......... ehhhhh....... nvm not gunna start that debate...... buuuuutttttt....... I am deeply sorry for all the families losses.


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## qqq1 (Mar 4, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> And thd guns? Not going to blame them (at all) but, a disturbed kid with a knife going on a rampage is easier to avoid and control than one with a gun... just saying tho


We've had tons of guns in the USA for a very long time. It never became much of an issue until the kids got crazy. Fix the kids and the objects won't matter. Sure, you could try to limit guns more and more but crazy people will do crazy things no matter what item they can get their hands on.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 4, 2018)

qqq1 said:


> We've had tons of guns in the USA for a very long time. It never became much of an issue until the kids got crazy. Fix the kids and the objects won't matter. Sure, you could try to limit guns more and more but crazy people will do crazy things no matter what item they can get their hands on.


Only 3 of the (mass) shootings in the last decade were caused by people under 21. It's definitely not just a problem with the kids


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## qqq1 (Mar 4, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Only 3 of the (mass) shootings in the last decade were caused by people under 21. It's definitely not just a problem with the kids


Shootings over all have been dropping for years. The only place they're increasing is in schools. I'm not saying kids are the only people who do crazy things. School shootings were the topic. Whether talking about kids or adults the problem is the person not the object they use.


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## DeslotlCL (Mar 4, 2018)

qqq1 said:


> Shootings over all have been dropping for years. The only place they're increasing is in schools. I'm not saying kids are the only people who do crazy things. School shootings were the topic. Whether talking about kids or adults the problem is the person not the object they use.


Are you really sure it is? Guns ownership where i live is pretty low, rare or taboo and guess what? There dont exist mass shootings or school shootings (:


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 4, 2018)

qqq1 said:


> Shootings over all have been dropping for years. The only place they're increasing is in schools. I'm not saying kids are the only people who do crazy things. School shootings were the topic. Whether talking about kids or adults the problem is the person not the object they use.


Ok, well, let's look at it this way; say a kid had the option of bringing either a knife or a gun to school. Which one would be more effective, and which one would have the better probability of killing more people


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## qqq1 (Mar 4, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ok, well, let's look at it this way; say a kid had the option of bringing either a knife or a gun to school. Which one would be more effective, and which one would have the better probability of killing more people


Or makes a pipe bomb and blows up an entire classroom. Or buys a gallon of gas and kills 100 kids burning the school down. Or hands out poisoned cookies. Or drives a car into a group. More things than a knife exist.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 4, 2018)

qqq1 said:


> Or makes a pipe bomb and blows up an entire classroom. Or buys a gallon of gas and kills 100 kids burning the school down. Or hands out poisoned cookies. Or drives a car into a group. More things than a knife exist.


A pipe bomb is significantly more difficult to make/obtain, and involves acquiring chemicals that are regulated and research that will put you on a watch list if you look it up. Gas has a distinct scent, and the school would most likely be evacuated before it was lit (unless the perpetrator was willing to burn himself alive). Poison is a fair point, I suppose, but again, there's a lot of planning that goes into that kind of attack, plus you'd make yourself look very suspicious by trying to give select people food objects if you're targeting someone


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## Tigran (Mar 8, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Well, this one sounds like it could have ended in a huge, huge tragedy...
> 
> I really cant understand how people do nothing in your country, how trump is doing nothing... ah yeah, conservatives and the huge amount of money from the nra that moves the government...



Because Jesus! And the Second Amendment! Fuck the first Amendment! Fuck the right to vote! And lord Jesus! GOD WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING! JESUS!


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## Xzi (Mar 12, 2018)

Trump has now flipped back on everything he promised as far as gun control goes, NRA owns his orange ass.

'White House vows to help arm teachers and backs off raising age for buying guns'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...da0c8e-253a-11e8-bc72-077aa4dab9ef_story.html

'Parkland survivor: Trump 'owned' by NRA just like other politicians'

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/377878-parkland-survivor-trump-is-still-owned-by-the-nra


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 12, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Trump has now flipped back on everything he promised as far as gun control goes, NRA owns his orange ass.
> 
> 'White House vows to help arm teachers and backs off raising age for buying guns'
> 
> ...


Like there was any surprise there


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## Tigran (Mar 12, 2018)

I would like to point out... That an armed teacher caused a problem last time....


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## Tigran (Mar 14, 2018)

Yep...

Teachers with guns is -such- a good idea.

http://www.ksbw.com/article/seaside-high-teacher-accidentally-fires-gun-in-class/19426017


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