# How Right Wing and Left Wing are muddled up, Racists Murders at a low under Trump



## SG854 (Mar 19, 2019)

This is a good video by Tim Pool which shows how the words left wing and right wing gets muddled up.

A person who is a white supremacist can be Left Wing or can be Right Wing. There are plenty of hardcore white supremacists that are socialists and communists. Just like how a black supremacists that kills cops doesn’t mean he’s left wing. These people can fall anywhere on the political spectrum.

There’s plenty of left wing people that are anti-semites. But for some reason racism is associated with right wing, when all right wing is, is that it focuses on the individual. Left wing focuses on the group. They have nothing to do whether or not a person is racist.

I do see people trying to one up the other by saying oh look there are racists so therefore right wing people are bad or vice versa. When racism is not a requirement for left wing or right wing. They argue whose side is more racist and don’t actually get to individual points that matter of the debate. It’s all about winning, my side is better, and not actually trying to find the best way to address something.

And the media does make Trumps presidency worse then it actually is. When you look at the data from ADL it shows that extremists violence is way down under Donald Trump. Our society didn’t become more violently racist under Trump, but that’s how things are framed.

There are many people out there who’s lives are no different after Trump became president, it’s buisness as usual as it’s always been, but there are people that act like the rise of racist killings is at an all time high because of Trump, that racist cops unjustly murdering people is common country wide*, that U.S. is this really horrible dangerous racist place, many from people who live comfortable lives and never witnessed an actual shooting or murder in their entire lives. It’s an over dramatic exaggeration, devoid from reality, and I blame media for that.

*Data actually shows that Police Officers are 18 1/2 times more likely to be killed by a black male then an unarmed black male is to be killed by a cop. Yet cops are always painted as the criminals praying on innocent blacks and not as victims.


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## Xzi (Mar 19, 2019)

The data shows a decrease in overall extremist violence, but a marked increase in white supremacist-related violence since Trump took office.  Every extremist attack in the US last year, save one, was committed by a far-right terrorist.  The problem isn't going anywhere as long as the president refuses to condemn these people, and continues to tout them as some sort of brown shirt militia under his command.  At this point, one unfortunately has to expect more attacks leading up to the 2020 election.


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## notimp (Mar 20, 2019)

Revolting post. Other group have white supremacists too.

To tiki torch march extends? To cu clux clan dragon speaks out extends? To drive over the other side at demonstrations extend? (All instances that happened during the Trump precidency.)

So the first argument disregards numbers.

The second argument "look this thing hasnt changed or even declined, many people are happy!" picks out one metric thats universally true (compare with other western countries, even ones under socialism, crime numbers are sinking), Trump has nothing to do with, and hail him for that. Humor me with this. So its Trumps divine presence that lowers crime? Whats the actual argument there that brings him in connection to lower crime rates? Presidency, something, something same year? Do me a favor and dont even pretend, that you thought logically on this one.

Both of those are basically tricks.

The common factor is to give your emotional love for a leader figure some form of pseudo rational underpinnings, to not have to hear every day that that he is a moron, thats segmented from every real decision structure that matters by now (he can play in his sandbox all he wants), and if push comes to shove, has wasted tax dollars to pay companies automation attempts in the US, and giving tax breaks to the wealthy.


Thats all he has done. Despite feeling personable on twitter. And spewing idiot remarks and lies everywhere he goes.

Fake news, fake news, crony media is the issue... Yeah sure.

Here is the important point - most people dont even think about white supramecists to the point where they have to make excusatory postings about that specific group of people. Its 2019, we really live our lives not thinking about them at all. So why the self excusatory posting of "other political orientations have them too"? Just to bring them into conversation again? Just to make you feel less bad, because they are in your mind all the time?

All of this is spin.

Dont post the video channel here, that feeds that to you, if you can help it.

I could have chosen softer words to bring the point across, but  - eh.


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## notimp (Mar 20, 2019)

Also its somewhat tiring to play the voice of reason for people picking up agitation and denunciation propaganda all the time. If you are posting a video, just because it peaked your interest emotionally. In a political context, chances are that someone else has to clean up behind you, and maybe put it in context to whats more likely happening, or how it also could be seen, but maybe even a bit more likely.

At that point it becomes a numbers game. So if more people are posting "crap their podcast jockey said" (Personalized media, I tell you the benefits will be huge! Everyone has their favourite newscaster on them youtubes!), that people who are willing to actually say something about it, this turns into a veritable sh*t show again. (If the conversation stops, the "others will tell me if I'm wrong" part of public discussion will go away.)

So if your only motivation is to post the name of someone who you think should get more followers, because pew di pie also got more, and because he thinks juuuuust the way you do - please dont make it as obvious, and please dont do it, if you can help yourself.

If you fav "podcaster" makes a good argument once in a while (chances are, that they are not - because most of them have to be better self promoters than journalists, same with the rw radio jockey movement (they then call themselves "commentators")). Post it, link to them - whe'll then look at the argument, and maybe acknowledge that thats interesting as well - giving them some link juice.


But if your argument is "other people are 'nazis' too", and "global crime decline is caused by the Trump aura" - please, think a little harder at first. Preferably not with your heart.


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## notimp (Mar 20, 2019)

Sorry, the world has gone crazy for a bit. My local european newspaper (one of them, a conservative one even) just titled "the poison of white supremacy", apparently because of something thats attributed to a discussion about Trump.

(Apparently he wouldnt denounce the movement publicly.)

Put me to sleep, and wake me up, when the world has become normal again, and not just a pile of hatespeech, linkbait throwing lunatics.

Please I didn't want to shut down the apparently very topical discussion about the importance of white supremacy denouncing...

God, I'm really over sensationalist, striking people with the fear of god, making white supremacy a front page headline again, news cycles...


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## Taleweaver (Mar 20, 2019)

It's...an interesting idea. Unfortunately, I can't view youtube videos from here, but I'll reply with the text so far (and admitted: I doubt my opinion will change much).



SG854 said:


> This is a good video by Tim Pool which shows how the words left wing and right wing gets muddled up.
> 
> A person who is a white supremacist can be Left Wing or can be Right Wing. There are plenty of hardcore white supremacists that are socialists and communists. Just like how a black supremacists that kills cops doesn’t mean he’s left wing. These people can fall anywhere on the political spectrum.


Partially agree. Thinking your own skin color is superior in theory has nothing to do with (other) political motives. In theory, it's perfectly possible to believe that black people are the cause of global warming, or that Chinese are by race inferior because their views of animals are perceived to be different.

The problem is that practice doesn't follow along. And I believe that isn't a coincidence. The left by definition relies on the strength of groups whereas the right relies on strength of the individual. As such, the "lone wolf" on the extreme left is far more unlikely to commit to terrorism than on the extreme right. The only example I can think of is the assassination of Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands, and that's no less than sixteen years ago.

If there are really plenty of hardcore white supremacist socialists and communists out there, they sure know to stay under the radar. To the point that I have never heard of them since 2002.



SG854 said:


> There’s plenty of left wing people that are anti-semites. But for some reason racism is associated with right wing, when all right wing is, is that it focuses on the individual. Left wing focuses on the group. They have nothing to do whether or not a person is racist.


Heh...that reminds me of a situation in Belgium recently. There is this carnival here in a city called Aalst. It is famous (or rather: infamous) for being...I'm not sure of the English word here..."wrong". For the period of the carnival, it's pretty much "what happens in Aalst stays in Aalst". Sober, normal men dress as women, poke fun of everyone and everything and parade through the city. Happens each year. This year, there was a ruckus because one of the groups had dressed up their car with traditional images of Jews (you know...the curly hairlocks and such). the idea was "we don't have money for a proper car this year" (and thus pokes fun at the trope of Jews being cheap).
It's pretty understandable that once Jews caught wind of it, they didn't like it at all. The problem is: if you just looked at a picture of that wagon, it certainly wouldn't look different from some pictures in the early '40s Germany (which they obviously linked it to). However...they completely neglected the spirit of carnaval, which makes fun of EVERYONE. Our politicians, leaders, belief...it al gets parodied in a display that's so over-the-top shameful that the abovementioned wagon was, in fact, pretty tame (think spoofs of KKK, brexit, Nazism, sexual battles, terrorism...you name it). And the Jews complaining about it just took things way too far. I even considered making a thread in the idea of "is it at all possible to make fun of Jews without being called an anti-semite?", because the Jew lobbying groups clearly couldn't tell the difference between someone making a joke in the one-time context of Aalst carnival and someone genuinely wishing for a genocide.

What has this all to do with this? Because you say "there's plenty of left wing people that are anti-semites". I beg to differ. I say that there are (at least in Belgium) quite some people considering themselves victims and CALLING others anti-semites.



SG854 said:


> I do see people trying to one up the other by saying oh look there are racists so therefore right wing people are bad or vice versa. When racism is not a requirement for left wing or right wing. They argue whose side is more racist and don’t actually get to individual points that matter of the debate. It’s all about winning, my side is better, and not actually trying to find the best way to address something.


Sorry, but this is 'Donald Trump'-style rhetoric. In his warped mind, Charlottesville was overrun by extremists on both the left and the right sides. It didn't make him right.

Yeah, and I know how this stuff continues from here:
"aha...but by contradicting him, you agree that it's an argument."
"No, I don't. The only ones trying to pass his lie as truth were sympathisants from the right."
"That's easy for YOU to say, mr. moral high ground!"
"what? So you think I should just let him get away with slander and downright dissing the victims of the situation?"
"you see, you STILL want to have the final say in the argument."
"you're not even DENYING him telling a lie!"

...and so on, and so on. Bottom line: I don't pretend I can argue with this line of thought because it is constructed to strengthen from criticism ("see? Leftists always try to make it sound as if they're holding the truth. It's pretty easy for them because they usually do, but that doesn't mean we don't have anything to fight for!")



SG854 said:


> And the media does make Trumps presidency worse then it actually is. When you look at the data from ADL it shows that extremists violence is way down under Donald Trump. Our society didn’t become more violently racist under Trump, but that’s how things are framed.


Sorry...who said it became more violently racist, exactly? Last time I checked, those taunting that the border emergency isn't an emergency because crime is at an all time low. It wouldn't surprise me that Fox news tries to frame it otherwise because it believes what Trump tweets (or was it the other way round?  ), but I honestly couldn't say.



SG854 said:


> There are many people out there who’s lives are no different after Trump became president, it’s buisness as usual as it’s always been, but there are people that act like the rise of racist killings is at an all time high because of Trump, that racist cops unjustly murdering people is common country wide*, that U.S. is this really horrible dangerous racist place, many from people who live comfortable lives and never witnessed an actual shooting or murder in their entire lives. It’s an over dramatic exaggeration, devoid from reality, and I blame media for that.


Wait...which rise of racist killings? We just agreed that it was the same as before (heck...I even argued it was lower than that)!




SG854 said:


> *Data actually shows that Police Officers are 18 1/2 times more likely to be killed by a black male then an unarmed black male is to be killed by a cop. Yet cops are always painted as the criminals praying on innocent blacks and not as victims.


Interesting. I always thought that police deal so much with criminals (often poor, and often black) that they become on edge about black people more than they should (kind of like how I come on edge when someone not from an IT department comes up with "a computer problem"). Meaning: I think many of those shootings aren't so much acts of racism (honestly: if they were, they'd be smart enough to at least not do it in uniform) as unneeded acts of self-defence. It doesn't make the black people any less dead or any less a victim, but sure...if cops are really portrayed as criminals praying on innocent blacks, then that's certainly a problem.


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