# Is piracy justifiable?



## SlyGuy (Jun 5, 2007)

Can piracy be justified?  I got into the modding scene with the purchase of my DS last year and I have downloaded my fair share of games.  The lack of renting options for the DS means it's pretty damn difficult to just 'try out' a game.  That's reason one why I pirate games.  Reason two is because it saves me money - of which I don't have a tonne!  Does that justify unauthorized copying?  No...but consider this.  I never would have even purchased a DS if it weren't for the availability of flash carts.  So without piracy my contribution to the DS project would have been $0.  As it stands now, my contribution is the price of a DS lite.  Not to mention I've convinced two of my friends to buy DS's so they could play with me.

I am going to mod my Wii this weekend, and I will be pirating games for it.  Does this hurt the industry?  In a way, yes.  In a way, no.  My previous console - a PS2 - encouraged me to buy a grand total of 6 games.  I probably rented 4 dozen more.  I bought zero peripherals.  The Wii is a system that, by design, will likely have many peripherals.  With less of my money being devoted to buying software (I'm sure I'll still rent from time to time), I will have more cash to buy peripherals.  Sure, I may pirate Guitar Hero 3, but I will lay down the cash to buy two GuitarHero Guitars!  I may pirate Mario party, but I'll buy 4 controllers with nunchucks from Nintendo.  I'll have Dance Mats, WiiGuns, SteeringWheels and who knows what else coming out my YingYang simply because I have the disposable income saved from pirating games.  Essentially, I am contributing to the industry... just in a different way.

Is that justification...or just a load of BS?


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## VVoltz (Jun 5, 2007)

Interesting.
I'll edit this entry later on.

Edit: Can't, I have too many games to think about to give a straight answer.
Edit2: BTW, piracy doesn't make dumver.


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## BoneMonkey (Jun 5, 2007)

i say yes 

yay pirates !


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## spokenrope (Jun 5, 2007)

Do what you want 'cuz a pirate is free.  You are a pirate.

/500 posts


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## lagman (Jun 5, 2007)

Load of BS.

Now read spokenrope's post again.


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## Linkiboy (Jun 5, 2007)

It's always justifiable by the fact that they are faceless corperations trying to make a profit off of you.


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## [M]artin (Jun 5, 2007)

People always ask this question and I always respond with:

*Are you insane?! THIS SHIT IS FREAKIN' FREE!!!*


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## Veho (Jun 5, 2007)

It's a load of BS. It's just the stuff you tell yourself to help you sleep better at night. Piracy isn't justified. Yes, I download games, but I don't say it's the "right" thing to do, or that I have a right to do it because of this and that. Yes, I'll buy three extra controllers, but how does that help Ubisoft, whose games I'll play? It doesn't. So it doesn't justify downloading games.


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## leetdude_007 (Jun 5, 2007)

Pirating is in the gray area due to the current order of how the world markets work... and these little things called LAWS (that need to get a bit of pruning for 2007+). Buy your games, you will be happy that you earned your material goods proper.

The answer in short is that, yes, it is wrong. Long answer, it's a complex situation if you just think about it (considering recent pushes for free trade, exchange rates, industry expectations for profit in video games, etc.)


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## JPH (Jun 5, 2007)

Well...if you pirate Xbox 360 games you're actually hurting Microsoft. I read that ms loses money on making xbox 360 so they think that if you buy software for their console it can make it up. also other things like add-ons and live subscriptions can make up for it...but that's ms. i think blockbuster and hollywood should allow people to rent ds games, i remember renting gbc games...


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## shaffaaf27 (Jun 5, 2007)

ur trying to justify something that yiu now is wrong....but hey, if it werent around, i doubt gbatemp would be around.


as i have said a million times, downloading roms in the uk, w/o the intent to sell, is legal. the only time you here about pir8s being caught is when they are "sharing" (read uploading).....

justifies or not, in the uk, its allowed.


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## lagman (Jun 5, 2007)

If you pirate your xbox 360 you're hurting developers.
Microsoft is losing money anyway


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## shaffaaf27 (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Linkiboy @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> It's always justifiable by the fact that they are faceless corperations trying to make a profit off of you.



wouldnt you feel pissed off if you were makign a game, and instead of poeple buying it, they stole it?


of corse these corporations sell the games at profits, thats what happenes in the capitalistisc world today. 

you would alos sell you games, in the hope that you would make a profit.


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## Hitto (Jun 5, 2007)

As a pirated artist myself, I say it's nothing more than the circle of life. You pirate, someone pirates from you, or you work a shitty job and are paid maybe 10% of what your boss will make from your hard work and experience...

*Everybody* steals. People who have guilt pangs over this were born to be slaves.


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## lagman (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(RAM @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Linkiboy @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > It's always justifiable by the fact that they are faceless corperations trying to make a profit off of you.
> ...



He was being sarcastic  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


Right Linkiboy?


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## sbassix (Jun 5, 2007)

Just by buying the consol itself is enough to contribute to the companies profit...

Im sure that the DS, Wii, and anyother game platforms are all priced at more then they cost to manufacture.

And besides there are plenty of people who buy the games instead of pirating them so im sure the companies are content with the income they get from there actual game sales.


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## Darkforce (Jun 5, 2007)

Well one can justify anything if one want to, it doesn't make it right though.

Just remember that whilst you are "supporting Nintendo" through their hardware as you say, third parties developers/publishers don't benefit.

Also the price of downloading a game hurts the industry more so than the few bucks of profit the publisher, developer and Nintendo lose out on. Games cost millions of dollars to develop and most of the money made through a sale of a game cover these development costs.


At the end of the day though even with piracy and personal downloading the industry still makes money - companies wouldn't be in business otherwise. They just learn to adapt: in game ads, micro transactions, subscription fees, movie/tv/product licensing, steam, deluxe edition boxsets, licensing of game engines/tecnhologies etc...


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## mcp2 (Jun 5, 2007)

Some people pirate because they can't afford the games, some people pirate because they're cheap. Whichever way due to the current laws in this world it's illegal.

Pirating has its benefits and its downsides. It's down to YOU and YOU only to pirate a game or not.

I say pirating RULES!!!


Think about it, if a copy of a game is downloaded, was that game ever going to be bought in the first place? So are the companies actually losing money?


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## ceraphis (Jun 5, 2007)

I think I would try and put a little of myself into every game I made and would be happy that even more people than usual got to see what I did with myself. Sure, it would also be nice to make money off of people playing my creation and of course I could see it differently if/when I am a game developer, but my dream has always been to make a lasting impact and affect people's lives and be known for that, obvious e.g: miyamoto or kojima...if I could do that through creating compelling video games instead of any other medium, that'd quite simply be awesome.


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## Hadrian (Jun 5, 2007)

Now before all this baby stuff came along and I didn't have to save my cash I brought what I liked, reviews are usually bullshit in the world of gaming so the only way I can tell whether I'd like a game is by actually trying it. A lot of people do this, a lot don't.

Now I don't always buy what I like, in fact last game I bought was Puzzle Quest a few months ago, maybe I'll buy Brothers In Arms if its any good though most likely wait for it to come down in price but for a game to be worthy of my hard earned money it must rate about 8/10 in my mind. For me its about supporting the developers and letting the publishers know that I want more games like the ones I buy.

Music is a different matter I do buy a lot but then on online stores its about £6 for a CD so its not a massive dent but I still download them first as well I'm impatient and rather listen to a record now than wait for it to be released. Why should I wait when reviewer and record industry insiders don't?, DVD's I'll pirate and maybe later in the year I'll by it for under £5, or even just get a pre-owned copy for less.

Piracy to me means selling downloaded/copied CDs, Games, DVD's and thats wrong. Now if it was me who made these games then I might be a little miffed if people downloaded and love my games but wouldn't pay for it as it might mean that I might get dropped by my publisher or I will have to make crappily made movie tie ins with a development time of 2 months.


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

Piracy is absolutely justified IMO. It has nothing to do with sleeping at night as morally, I have no problem with software piracy that isn't for profit, and I say this as someone who used to work in the industry. 

The Commodore Amiga was a success for many years. The reason for that was software piracy, no question. Even Commodore themselves admitted that. I knew a TON of Amiga users. Not one didn't pirate software. The argument that a pirated copy is a lost sale is absolute nonsense. So with the Amiga, thanks to piracy, you've got a much large userbase, simply down to piracy. Commercial titles logically would still sell the same percentage, so a larger userbase means more sales. Yes, it also means more piracy, but you've also got more users to buy your titles. As one goes up, so does the other.

I bought a DS for the homebrew. I have a 1 gig CF card mostly full of roms I never play. These days my DS is used as an e-book reader and a web browser with DSO.

The software industry treats us all like crap. (I'm more approaching this from the PC side of the industry.) If you go and buy some bread and it's mouldy, or even tastes weird, you can return it to the store and get your money back. You buy a bicycle, and ten minutes into using it the wheel falls off, you can take it back. There would be absolute uproar from consumers if you couldn't.

Yet we gleefully accept the software industry doing it. You pick up a game at your local WalMart, EBGames, whatever... You take it home and put it on your PC. The copy protection doesn't play nice with your system meaning you can't run it. You take it back to the store. But you can't return it, because you may have copied it, but the copy protection is the exact reason you can't.

What an absolutely great industry! They can churn out the absolute worst attrocity to ever be pressed onto disk, and they're laughing all the way, because you can't return it. If it doesn't work, you have no recourse. If it's crap, you have no recourse. If it does run, and is unplayably bugged, you have no recourse. 

So piracy is completely acceptable IMO when the industry themselves engage in unfair business practices that wouldn't be tolerated from any other industry. Incessant claims of software piracy are made. "We lose 2 billion a year" and all that nonsense. "Every pirated copy is a lost sale." So working on that theory, given how many sales are supposedly lost to piracy according to the industry, that would, logically, make an unpirateable title the greatest selling of all time, if the industries statements were correct. Only it didn't quite work that way. Starforce protected titles were very hard to crack. Some titles, despite being 2-3 years old, have STILL not been cracked and pirated. (GT Legends springs to mind.) meaning if the would be pirate wanted it, they'd have to buy it. Now according to the industry, when someone pirates a title, they lose a sale. So all these little pirates should have run out and bought the titles should they not? Only they didn't. Sales were average, surprise surprise. 

The industry crows on about piracy because they know they make a big enough noise, they can get attention with all their big scary numbers and push new, harsher legislation through that punishes software pirates with harsher fines and prison sentences than some rapists and murderers get. They know damn well that piracy also has positives. For years it was believed Lucasarts deliberately leaked their titles early to create buzz. Early release piracy creates buzz. 

The industry treats users with utter contempt. Why should the users feel any obligation to the industry? And anyone who says "there'd be no industry", if piracy was the industry destroying cancer they'd have you believe, there wouldn't BE a game industry by this point. Even the PC gaming industry has been declared dead many times, and is still thriving.

The only pirates I have an issue with are the for profit folk. But the authorities don't go after them. No, much easier to go after soft targets they know they can win against because they can't afford decent legal representation. They get good press for busting a "hardened criminal". (Despite the fact that software piracy is NOT theft by legal definition, as you are not in sole posession of someone elses property. It's copyright violation. Ironically if it WAS theft, the legal penalities would be less.) The industry gets to wave it's dick around for all to see... And the resources that were used to catch this hardened software pirate weren't available to try and catch someone who was actually a threat to society rather than a companies bottom line. 

Sorry to rant on, but I worked in the industry for many years, and all the claims about how damaging piracy are are absolute bollocks, and they know it.

Hadrian: Anyone who trusts game reviews is an idiot. I've seen what happens first hand when someone tells the truth. The bigger publications will lose ad revenue if they piss off the big companies, and the smaller publications simply stop getting the free product they depend on if a poor game is given an appropriate review.


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## Rayder (Jun 5, 2007)

Let's see....sit on my ass and download games for free, or take my hard-earned money and spend it on those same games that I could leech for free.  Gee, what a tough choice.

Whether it's justified or not, I don't really care. Free better than pay.....easier too. One cart instead of many is always better.  It's like me with a bottle of beer....SLURP!  AHH!  Gimme another.

What I think is funny is people (on other forums) talking about flashcards and saying, "I'm just gonna use it for homebrew. I will still buy actual games.",  yeah, right, ok buddy, sure.

I haven't actually bought any games since the day I first got my SCminiSD.....unless you count the R4DS purchase.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I already have enough avenues of exit for my cash, anything I can do to reduce the amount I spend on things I don't really need in the first place (want yes, need no) is justified in my mind.

I don't care what the "law" says, nor do I carry even the slightest bit of guilt around with me about it.






UncleChuckle makes a hell of a lot of good points too.  I just didn't feel like typing all that kind of stuff out.


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## Legend (Jun 5, 2007)

Well, I"ll be the devil's advocate here & say this.

Is stealing justifiable?
If I was a starving kid, and I came into your house & stole everything from you, would you be cool with it? I think not.
Just because prices are too steep, doesn't mean that we have to steal shit. If food was too expensive, would you spend your money on something else, and steal all of your food?
Video games & software aren't a necessity for most people. People that run businesses, generally go the legit route, but like I said - not a necessity. We don't NEED to play video games, but we do it for fun. If your hobby is too expensive for your liking, then find a new one - or fork out the cash.

Now on to how I personally feel about the situation.
Gaming prices are pretty high. I'd rather spend my money on crap that I'm not going to be done using in 2 weeks, or food, or a place to live. However, I don't think that it's right for everyone to pirate all of their games and whatnot.
The gaming industry doesn't really make that much money as it is off of their consoles, so they gotta sell their games.
Anyway, all I'm trying to say here is... Balance out your piracy with your legitimacy, and there won't be any problems (as long as you don't get caught!)


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> Is stealing justifiable?
> If I was a starving kid, and I came into your house & stole everything from you, would you be cool with it?



Bullshit argument. It's not theft. You are not depriving anyone of a physical item, nor breaking and entering.

A more accurate argument would be "If I made an exact duplicate of everything you own for myself", which of course most people would say "go ahead". 

You're using the exact same argument the industry uses, and it's bullshit, because you're not stealing anything. IT IS NOT THEFT! IT IS NOT the same as walking into a store and stealing a copy. It is not the same as breaking into a house. Is it not the same as stealing a car. It is MAKING A DUPLICATE OF SOMETHING.


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

A side note: Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo sell their consoles at a loss and make their money on games. So if you want to punish one of the console makers, the best thing you can do is buy their console, then never buy a title for it.


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## Veho (Jun 5, 2007)

Piracy isn't justifiable. But it's not the end of the world either. I do it. You do it. Big deal. 

Intellectual property theft *for personal gain* (the _real_ piracy) is both unjustifiable and wrong and can't be excused with "faceless corporations", "profit churning companies", " they make enough money on consoles". It's the real money-grabbing corporation, it's the real thievery, it's the real "man" gaining "profit off someone else's work". There are whole factories out there making pirate copies of games and music CDs, and stealing both from the authors, and from the people who buy the bootleg. 

What we do, download games, may not be right, or proper, or justifiable, but it's really no big deal. As long as you don't say it's your right to download games (because it's really not) or whatever other excuse you come up with, who cares what you do. (Apart from some anal retentive district attorneys who go around fining grannies for piracy just because she had a 5 second snippet of her grandson's favourite song as a ringtone on her cellphone... )


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## Darkforce (Jun 5, 2007)

Hitto raises a great point too, everyone steals - or at least disregards morals and acts unscrupulously. Nintendo infringed on others patents, violated antitrust laws/price fixing, intimidated retailers and had a whole monopoly going during the 80s and 90s.

No ones perfect, heh.


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## imgod22222 (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(UncleChuckle @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Is stealing justifiable?
> ...



I laugh at them comparing getting off your ass and breaking into a car to just sitting on your ass doing a few mouseclicks, and spending the exact same amount of money (or more) on the various things you use to pay for that ability to download: A house, that i assume your computer's in, an internet connection which you would need to download, your electricity bill, which i'm sure is relatively higher than other peoples' especially if you leave your computer on 24/7 downloading stuff. And by the end of the 2.5weeks you spend waiting to download, you paid x amount of dollars for a $20 movie. Apply this to games and it fits in the realm of GBAtemp. Sorry i can't fill in 'x amount of dollars' but i'm still a minor and i don't pay for that stuff.


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## outphase (Jun 5, 2007)

The short of it is that it is not justifiable, but that won't stop anyone anytime soon.


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## Legend (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(UncleChuckle @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Is stealing justifiable?
> ...



So if everyone in the world went about making duplicate copies of everything - for free, might I add - how would people generate money? They wouldn't. In fact, why would we even need money then? We could have everything for free, right? So there's no reason for us to even have money at all!

By duplicating a product, and not purchasing it yourself - you're depriving the company and/or people behind the production & marketing of the product a physical item - MONEY. Money is a physical item, isn't it?


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## Veho (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> By duplicating a product, and not purchasing it yourself - you're depriving the company and/or people behind the production & marketing of the product a physical item - MONEY. Money is a physical item, isn't it?


Read my previous post. We, the downloaders, are a mere speck on the losses generated by the real pirates who profit from piracy. We are barely noticeable. Any company who seriously counts on the money they would make off of us if we didn't download is making crazy baseless assumptions and deserves to fail. Actually factoring downloaders into a business accounting is bad business (and bad accounting). We can download all we want. We just don't matter that much. Just don't try and say it's justified.


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## OrR (Jun 5, 2007)

I think piracy is justifiable as long as you buy as many games as you can reasonably afford, starting with the ones you enjoyed/played most (or starting politically with the one where the devs need the money most urgently 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ). I am pirating a lot, trying every interesting game. I love that possibility and don't want to give it up. Yet, I now own 24 real DS cartridges. Without piracy I would not have bought so many, and especially not these ones because I would not know about many of these games or how great they are (Ouendan, Miss Spider, Phoenix Wright, Hotel Dusk, ...). Pirating and not buying anything because you can save money that way is unethical but in communism you always have to live with people abusing the system.


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(veho @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> Intellectual property theft *for personal gain* (the _real_ piracy) is both unjustifiable and wrong and can't be excused with "faceless corporations", "profit churning companies", " they make enough money on consoles". It's the real money-grabbing corporation, it's the real thievery, it's the real "man" gaining "profit off someone else's work". There are whole factories out there making pirate copies of games and music CDs, and stealing both from the authors, and from the people who buy the bootleg.



Absolutely agree 100%. THOSE are the people that time and money should be invested in taking down. But that actually requires work, and they can put up a decent legal defence. So the authorities don't even bother. No, they'd much rather take down some muppet in a cracking group than actual put real work in.

Darkforce: Don't forget Sony stealing the Dual Shock. Then you've got Microsoft, one of the most morally reprehensible companies on Earth if you read up on their history. (Highly recommend "Hard Drive" as a book to read on that. And that only covers to 1994!) 

imgod: It's ridiculous. My big issue is pricing. A new game comes out for the PC, it's $60+. Yet within a few months, it's down to half that. They are clearly still making a profit, so the original $60 price is just an absolute moneygrab and nothing more. As for movies, I've downloaded a lot over the years, and ultimately wound up buying over 100 DVD's that I would never have bought had I not got that free "taste". Remember how Jack Valenti (burn in hell, Jack) went to the US government and said the VCR was akin to the Boston Strangler? It would kill the industry etc... Now that same industry makes most of it's money on DVD, the movie format that replaced the VCR where they built the home market for film. 

Not only have I bought titles I've originally pirated (Warcraft 3 for example), I can also categorically state I have never bought a game because I couldn't pirate it.


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## Bowser128 (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(hadrian @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> For me its about supporting the developers and letting the publishers know that I want more games like the ones I buy.
> 
> This point I understand and agree with, I make a point of buying certain games new or at RRP in the hope that developers see that there is a market for that particular type of game on the particular console in question.
> 
> ...



This, I do not understand in the slightest. If I am incapable of piracy and I want to buy a game like GTA or some random film like Casino Royale (the creators are already making a hell of a profit and know where the market is, my purchase won't make a difference) then I'll try to get it pre-owned or in a clearance sale type-thing. However, if I am capable of piracy, there is no need whatsoever to go the 'cheap' route, either way the creators get nothing, the only difference is in my bank account.


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## Legend (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(veho @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > By duplicating a product, and not purchasing it yourself - you're depriving the company and/or people behind the production & marketing of the product a physical item - MONEY. Money is a physical item, isn't it?
> > Read my previous post. We, the downloaders, are a mere speck on the losses generated by the real pirates who profit from piracy. We are barely noticeable. Any company who seriously counts on the money they would make off of us if we didn't download is making crazy baseless assumptions and deserves to fail. Actually factoring downloaders into a business accounting is bad business (and bad accounting). We can download all we want. We just don't matter that much. Just don't try and say it's justified.



Ok, so let's assume then that "we, the downloaders", are a meagre 50 million people (worldwide).
The average game, we'll say, is about $30 CAD or USD. Let's say that this company made 50 million copies of this game.
It would take ONE person to backup the game onto their computer, and then 49,999,999 other people have access to it - without having to leave the comfort of their own home.
Anyone know what 49,999,999 x $30 is?


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## ceraphis (Jun 5, 2007)

to UncleChuckle

Never heard it expressed as perfectly, undeniably clear as the way you said it. Like you said, its not theft, its a copy-right violation...as in the company has the RIGHT to make COPY(ie)s of the game in question, not you, and you VIOLATE that right under whatever law you want to use as a claim.

The important thing to me is that its not morally wrong under my religious beliefs unless you STEAL the company's PROFIT by selling copies of your own. 

I believe if you want the hard copy of a game, pressed in the factory, usually guaranteed to play in the system you purchase, exempt of legal worries, then you go and buy the disc. Don't know the sources for early releases, or a number string data version of a game but you know a store says theyll have it on tuesday? Wait for them to open, pay for your disc, and go home and play.  Don't want to get banned on Xbox Live? Go to the store, buy the disc that guarantees you in a way not to be banned, at the very least not permanently if there is a mix up, and have fun.

I also believe that its up to the company to secure their products, much more so than they have a moral right to punish you for learning yourself some infoz about hacking your way into them. You don't see anybody actually utilizing PS3 backups for much now do you? That's because as of now the system hasnt been hacked. So what does sony get? Money from gamers who dont want to wait for a hack or dont know what hacking's all about.

Ill finish up my potentially infinity-long argument by saying that Nintendo's got the right idea. Get the claimable price ($250) down below other next gen consoles, market towards the technologically-unsavvy, and dont waste too much time or energy securing every possible route into the system, i.e: DVD firmware hack. What's the end result? The Wii follows its DS brother and prints money due to exceedingly large quantities of comparably inexpensively produced console and games sold to all the people who don't hack, and the hackers end up being happy too. It's just the perfectly happy scenario for Nintendo, they aren't going away anytime soon. 

Afterthought: Too bad though that their plan results in lots of really crappy games marketed towards the older/younger uninformed folk in addition to the fun innovative games...


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## Bowser128 (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> Ok, so let's assume then that "we, the downloaders", are a meagre 50 million people (worldwide).
> The average game, we'll say, is about $30 CAD or USD. Let's say that this company made 50 million copies of this game.
> It would take ONE person to backup the game onto their computer, and then 49,999,999 other people have access to it - without having to leave the comfort of their own home.
> Anyone know what 49,999,999 x $30 is?



Point me to any game or film that has received that many illegal downloads.


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## Hadrian (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(hadrian @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > For me its about supporting the developers and letting the publishers know that I want more games like the ones I buy.
> ...


Nothing to understand, I like to have a proper copy of something thats all, its nice to have in the collection.


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## ih8crouch (Jun 5, 2007)

i wouldnt buy 90% of the games i d/l so most of the time the companies arnt losing my pounds


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(UncleChuckle @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> ...



You are not depriving someone of money. If you went back and read what I said you'd realise that. You are working on the INDUSTRY statement that every pirated copy is a lost sale, which it clearly isn't. Plus money is not a physical item either. It's an intangible. It exists only in a computer. Yes, you have some in your wallet. But the money in business doesn't physically exist. What? You think the software industry has vast vaults of notes from their sales? LOL! 

The folk who work for EA still get paid whether I buy FIFA 2007 or pirate it. They were paid for their work long before the item came to market.

In short you're making a ridiculous leap.


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## Veho (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> Ok, so let's assume then that "we, the downloaders", are a meagre 50 million people (worldwide).
> The average game, we'll say, is about $30 CAD or USD. Let's say that this company made 50 million copies of this game.
> It would take ONE person to backup the game onto their computer, and then 49,999,999 other people have access to it - without having to leave the comfort of their own home.
> Anyone know what 49,999,999 x $30 is?


And counting on that money as already earned is just bad business. Any company actually working with that kind of numbers and that kind of logic deserves to go bankrupt. 

By "we the downloaders" I meant us at GBATMW GBATEMP. That makes a few thousand out of 15 million DS consoles worldwide. And of us several thousand, some will actually buy the game, some wouldn't have bought it anyway, and what is left is really nothing. We are an insignificant percentage of the whole consumer market. Again, I'm not trying to justify my downloading, I know it's wrong, but it's not such a big deal. Really. 


EDIT: Wrong forum


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## Legend (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, so let's assume then that "we, the downloaders", are a meagre 50 million people (worldwide).
> ...



I was throwing out an exaggerated example to illustrate a point. I doubt that 50 million people are going to download the same movie. However, go have a look at your local torrent site - see if there's a download counter. Assume that for every 1 person that downloads a movie, $10 CAD/USD is lost.
Mininova; Pirates 3.
Add up every seeder & leecher, then multiply that by $10. That's quite a bit of cash.


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## Bowser128 (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(hadrian @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> Nothing to understand, I like to have a proper copy of something thats all, its nice to have in the collection.
> 
> 
> Ah, I see, it's easier than downloading covers, labels etc. I suppose. My mistake.
> ...



Wrong forum Veho


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(ceraphis @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> to UncleChuckle
> 
> Never heard it expressed as perfectly, undeniably clear as the way you said it. Like you said, its not theft, its a copy-right violation...as in the company has the RIGHT to make COPY(ie)s of the game in question, not you, and you VIOLATE that right under whatever law you want to use as a claim.



Thank you I take issue with you saying about Tuesdays though... For Gran Turismo 4 I had to wait until Wednesday. And for GTR2 (PC race sim) I had to wait THREE WEEKS! (Though ironically, it was still a Tuesday)

I'm not saying piracy isn't illegal. It is. But it's copyright violation. Not theft. One thing the industry needs to learn: Saying something doesn't make it so.

For a long time we had these ads on our satellite system. A guy walking along. It said "This man is going to steal something". Then it shows him looking at a bike, then a car, than a handbag... Then he gets in and turns his TV on. "Stealing satellite signals is theft" was the final tagline. Well

A) How is it theft when you're basically utilizing something that is passing through your body every time you're outside?

B) NO IT ISN'T! 

I actually wrote to them with the dictionary and legal definitions of theft and asked them to explain exactly how not paying for satellite TV was theft. They basically responded with "it just is". That right there is all you need to know. RIAA, MPAA, software industry... It's all the same. They've said "it's theft", and the majority have been brainwashed into believing it.


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## Legend (Jun 5, 2007)

Ahem, for the record - I'm only throwing out the arguements against piracy to be a bastard.
I pirate shit all the time.


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## Skyhunterjim (Jun 5, 2007)

I 'd like to note that I bought a flashcart before I even got my DSLite (didn't own the DS phat).
I have since bought 16 original carts (some just for keepsake, as I had already finished them on the M3) while having played about 40 roms.Fair ratio, I guess.
Making a profit by selling copies is the only Piracy I know.
Downloading a rom and not buying a game you enjoy indeed hurts the creator, not the publisher.
I mean, if you like the game and still don't buy it, you put all the creator's work to waste.
If you don't like it, having just tried it and realised it's a waste of bytes, I don't see that as a lost sale.

P.S: Not buying Castlevania DoS or PoR (just an example), to have to show to your kid 15 years from now, you ought to be hanged by the neck.It's a crime against our gamer community, not copyright legislation, frig that.
Same goes for New Super Mario, etc. etc. There are games you must have and then there are a few games you are NOT allowed not to have (yes, that's a double negative).


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> ...



Absolute nonsense, and again peddling the argument that industry does. You're working on the theory that everyone is sitting there, twirling their villainous moustaches going "MWahaha... Now I do not have to pay to see Mister Depp!" It seems these days, when I see comments on torrents, it's mostly folk who paid to see it wanting a copy to see again until the DVD comes out. That was certainly true with "Grindhouse", "300" etc...

Again, you're work on the theory that everyone WANTS to pirate rather than purchase. In your universe, no games are sold at all and nobody pays to see movies. Quite clearly a fantasy world. Also

A) Torrent stats are notorious for being inaccurate
B) Not everyone downloading will bother finishing
C) Not everyone who finishes downloading will actually watch it anyway
D) You're example is so horribly flawed I could probably keep going all night. (Insert joke about some female relative here)


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## ceraphis (Jun 5, 2007)

legend, I don't mean to start fanning the flames but $10 lost on each download is still way too high...I'd MAYBE be willing to accept about $1 in potential lost revenue tops, when you really consider how many people who download a game would have ever set foot in a store to buy it.

It's just not logical that a company would lose $10 out of every $60 game given the common sense assumption that most people pirate for much more complicated reasons than simply to not pay for a game.

Tell me how likely you think Random Bob who is bored one day in front of his computer and downloads Tamagotchi Party Animals Xtreme for the DS to pass the time, would, given its possible unavailability on the internet, go straight out to the store and purchase a copy, or ever consider buying it in his lifetime were it not available to pirate?


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## Veho (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> I was throwing out an exaggerated example to illustrate a point. I doubt that 50 million people are going to download the same movie. However, go have a look at your local torrent site - see if there's a download counter. Assume that for every 1 person that downloads a movie, $10 CAD/USD is lost.
> Mininova; Pirates 3.
> Add up every seeder & leecher, then multiply that by $10. That's quite a bit of cash.


But you can't really claim every one of them would have bought the movie if they weren't able to download it. At leas half of them wouldn't even consider the movie if it weren't available for download. Many of them would wait for it to be aired on TV. Many would get it at a video store (and that wouldn't constitute profit to the filmmakers anyway. There are those who have seen the movie in cinemas and just want a copy to flip through, but they wouldn't actually buy a DVD. So what you're left with is a bunch of people who just don't deem the movie interesting/good enough to be viewed in a cinema, or bought on a DVD. 

The people who would have seen the movie in cinemas (or bought a DVD) are a minority among the torrent people. 

And that's why you can't actually take all the downloaders, multiply their number by $[too much], and claim that as a loss. You can't honestly claim your movie/game/CD would have made that much money if it weren't for downloaders. That's just crap.


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## OrR (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(ih8crouch @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> i wouldnt buy 90% of the games i d/l so most of the time the companies arnt losing my pounds


It's important that you buy the other 10%, though.


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## Hitto (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Legend @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> So if everyone in the world went about making duplicate copies of everything - for free, might I add - how would people generate money? They wouldn't. In fact, why would we even need money then? We could have everything for free, right? So there's no reason for us to even have money at all!




WHEN YOU PIRATE MP3s YOU DOWNLOAD COMMUNISM!


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## ChrisCrawford (Jun 5, 2007)

This arguement goes round and round forever. I think for people who really love games it's nessesary, I buy a ton of console games (figure I average 5-10 a month) I can't afford to buy DS games, so I just do what we all do. If it weren't for roms, I wouldn't be playing them at all.

For DS I only own 2 games, However I have purchased a ton of DSes for gifts for people, I own 3, and theres 5 in the household.

So it's cooler to own than to steal, and I would rather drop the money any day, and own the case, and the instructions, and all that, it's so much better, but I wouldn't be buying these games anyway so I think it matters not.

For somone with alot of extra cash laying around, who pirates, I think that's just being a cheapass.


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## ih8crouch (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(OrR @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(ih8crouch @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > i wouldnt buy 90% of the games i d/l so most of the time the companies arnt losing my pounds
> ...




Agreed and I do most of the time


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Skyhunterjim @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> I 'd like to note that I bought a flashcart before I even got my DSLite (didn't own the DS phat).
> I have since bought 16 original carts (some just for keepsake, as I had already finished them on the M3) while having played about 40 roms.Fair ratio, I guess.
> Making a profit by selling copies is the only Piracy I know.
> Downloading a rom and not buying a game you enjoy indeed hurts the creator, not the publisher.
> ...



So you're saying that you should buy a game, even if you hate it, because the masses think it's good? Good god, you scare me. That means I have to buy a copy of "Are We Done Yet" when it comes out on DVD because that was so immensely popular in theatres. The horror... The horror...

Poor idea too. I have kids now. They've seen the game. My Animal Crossing cart, I doubt I'll be able to play that in 20 years time. I will be able to run it on an emulator though. Why would I need the physical product? "Come here son, look at this worthless little slab of plastic that means nothing to you... Yes yes, you can go back to your "Better Than Life" VR sim in a minute... Yes, we used to play these... It's a... Look at me when I'm talking to you..."

Anyone who whips out a 15 year old video game to show their kid... That's one sad bastard. Now letting them actually play it, that's cool. (Recently introduced my 5 year old to Pacman. Fairly certain he wouldn't give two craps if I had a dead arcade machine of it in my living room. Nostalgia only works for the person who lived through it. The actual tangible experience is something else entirely.)


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## IxthusTiger (Jun 5, 2007)

Absolutely not justifiable


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(veho @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> And that's why you can't actually take all the downloaders, multiply their number by $[too much], and claim that as a loss. You can't honestly claim your movie/game/CD would have made that much money if it weren't for downloaders. That's just crap.



And yet that's pretty much exactly what these industries do.


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## Veho (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(veho @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > By "we the downloaders" I meant us at GBATMW.
> ...


Yes, but they didn't really expect to get that money. They all whine about "piracy" and over-inflate their "losses", in order to justify their lack of profit that's actually caused by crappy games    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Really good games still make a ton of profit despite all the downloading in the world. Keep that in mind.


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## Legend (Jun 5, 2007)

Eek! Too many arguements at once!
*RUNAWAY!*


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## ceraphis (Jun 5, 2007)

lol at legend, I knew from the beginning you probably were just BSing in a way. 

Seriously though, I read yesterday while traveling through my favorite tubes that there's a new mp3 out there that simultaneously gives you the clap and the ding dong fever at the same. Scary stuff.


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

Anyway, I believe we've exhausted this argument. Piracy is:

Illegal
NOT THEFT
Justifiable

Piracy claims from the industry are:

Nonsense
Made up
Ridiculous hyperbole

Authorities wasting resources nicking muppets for piracy are
Criminally inept
Morally reprehensible
Should be ashamed of being industry stooges

Console makers are
Stealers of patents
Hypocrites.

Right, I believe we're done. Now I have stuff to do. These DS roms aren't gonna pirate themselves are they!


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## Hanafuda (Jun 5, 2007)

THE MAN gets all my money. All of it. Whatever I have, I gotten by virtue of the money I have given THE MAN. I have paid for everything I have.


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## Veho (Jun 5, 2007)

Let me quote myself again: 



QUOTE(veho @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(UncleChuckle @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(veho @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> ...


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## ceraphis (Jun 5, 2007)

I paid for the fever. On my ding dong.


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## Bowser128 (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Hanafuda @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> THE MAN gets all my money. All of it. Whatever I have, I gotten by virtue of the money I have given THE MAN. I have paid for everything I have.



Who is this MAN and why have you given him all of your money?


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## Cauterize (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(UncleChuckle @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> A side note: Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo sell their consoles at a loss and make their money on games. So if you want to punish one of the console makers, the best thing you can do is buy their console, then never buy a title for it.



Or to screw them a step further... dont buy the console!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I agree with your words above UncleChuckle, i too was one of the 'Amiga boys' back in the day swapping disks. Youre totally right, everyone had an amiga, everyone loved it and everyone had copies!


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## Hanafuda (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Hanafuda @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > THE MAN gets all my money. All of it. Whatever I have, I gotten by virtue of the money I have given THE MAN. I have paid for everything I have.
> ...




ok, so I lied. My wife gets all my money.


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## OrR (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(ceraphis @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> I paid for the fever. On my ding dong.


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## jaxxster (Jun 5, 2007)

Of course its not justifable...no matter what spin you try to put on it. You're stealing from a company. I remember the good old days of actually enjoying games that i spent my money on, Now its all seems crap and games are less enjoyable. I actually buy my 360 games and they're all worth the money.


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## VVoltz (Jun 5, 2007)

I knew this was going to be BIG, that is why I saved my second post, to really comment something worth it. =)


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## skullstatue (Jun 5, 2007)

Big business can suck my furry balls.


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## UncleChuckle (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(jaxxster @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> Of course its not justifable...no matter what spin you try to put on it. You're stealing from a company. I remember the good old days of actually enjoying games that i spent my money on, Now its all seems crap and games are less enjoyable. I actually buy my 360 games and they're all worth the money.



FOR THE LAST GODDAMN TIME, IT IS NOT STEALING! IT IS COPYRIGHT VIOLATION! WILFULLY MAKING A COPY OF SOMETHING THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO COPY. 

Jesus christ...

As for games being more enjoyable, the problem today is the money involved. It's the same with anything. When it's niche, people take chances. Look at TV networks. When FOX was small, they took a chance on stuff like Married With Children and The Simpsons. As they got bigger, they took less risks. Same with other TV networks. The bigger something becomes, the less those involved are willing to risk, because they rather like the millions of dollars their cookie cutter crap makes.

So there you go, piracy is GOOD for the industry as there's less money if we believe your argument.


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## Hanafuda (Jun 5, 2007)

no copyright violation. copyright _infringement_.


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## sneekysneeky (Jun 5, 2007)

I've often thought about that in the Microsoft point of view thing - if I hypotheically download a 360 game which I had absolutely no intention of EVER buying, then found out it had some pretty good features and I then decide I want to spend some bin lids on the downloadable content for it. Have I hurt the industry or helped it? Would this justify piracy? How can a company loose money on a copied game I would never buy anyway? All hypothetical of course!!!

Discuss.


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## Hitto (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(jaxxster @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> Of course its not justifable...no matter what spin you try to put on it. You're stealing from a company. I remember the good old days of actually enjoying games that i spent my money on, Now its all seems crap and games are less enjoyable. I actually buy my 360 games and they're all worth the money.



Plaaaaaaaant!


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## thegame07 (Jun 5, 2007)

QUOTE(RAM @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> ur trying to justify something that yiu now is wrong....but hey, if it werent around, i doubt gbatemp would be around.
> 
> 
> as i have said a million times, downloading roms in the uk, w/o the intent to sell, is legal. the only time you here about pir8s being caught is when they are "sharing" (read uploading).....
> ...



it is illegal in the uk to download roms. i dont know what made you think its legal  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 The police just like to tackle the people who sell it the most. However if you walked by a police man while holding a copy of "300" the policeman would take it from you.


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## Mehdi (Jun 6, 2007)

it's justifiable, good luck


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## fischju_original (Jun 6, 2007)

For games, it's not justifiable. But if some software would vastly improve a developing country that can't afford it, why not? Bill Gates let off countries that were pirating m$ software that couldn't afford it


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## jesterscourt (Jun 6, 2007)

To those that said that they wished they could rent NDS games, have you heard of Gamefly?  Don't give me bull about not having a credit card, you can get one of those throwaway Visa/Mastercard giftcard dealies at a 7/11 or grocery store.


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## rashef (Jun 6, 2007)

Pirate games just to avoid paying and supporting good programmers and evil distributors is by no means justifiable.
I'd bet no one would be happy if I were to borrow their TV/Car/Whatever just because i'd like to use it but i'm not willing to pay for it and when i'm done i'll just dump it to trash (wrong analogy maybe, but you get the point). Sure... having a "illegal copy downloaded from mini-something or other source" or ROM for short, to test the game could be tolerable if you buy the game eventually, but doing so just to avoid paying for it makes you a simple common thief.


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## skullstatue (Jun 6, 2007)

The bomb has been planted.


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## chalupa (Jun 6, 2007)

I feel ok pirating most games but some are too good to pirate.

I feel very guilty pirating ouendan knowing that Inis is having low sales and it truly needs the money. I might import the second one.


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## stinkingbob (Jun 6, 2007)

Is piracy justifiable?  In short, yes and no.  Instead of pointing fingers at the downloaders or the corporations, the 2 should get together and try to find out why people download instead of pay.  Sounds stupid, but bear with me.  The frustrations that gamers feel are the limitations that are placed on them by the manufacturer.  For software, you cannot return it to the store for a refund.
Some locations will give you a store credit while charging you a restocking fee.  The problems is this: what happens if the game is really crappy?  The box art looks great, the description looks interesting, but when you load it up, the gameplay just sucks. You basically have no recourse. There is no avenue to try the game out before you buy it. Its akin to playing Russian Roulette.
In addition, many software companies put outcrappy or bugged games on purpose just to meet their deadline, knowing full well that their product is not 100%. SO again, the cosumer is caught between the fryer and the frying pan. Lastly, the cost factor. Games are too damn expensive.  WOuld you pay $60 for a PS3 or Wii game which you could beat in a day?? Hell no.
Honestly, I believe that given a choice, most people would rather pay for a game than download it for free. So, here are some suggestions:

1) Allow people to try games before they buy them in the store
2) Have a one day grace period where you could return the game if you didn't like it.  
3) Set a uniform price for all games. For example, all NDS games will cost $19.99 and all Wii and PS3 games to cost $29.99
4) Lower console prices to an affordable price. Lets face it, is the PS3 really worth paying $500 for?? (and then you have to buy the game and extra controllers and any necessary add-ons so figure in an extra $100)

I guarantee you that if this were to happen, ther would be less priacy and the companies would make more moneya nd the consumers would buy more games. Hands down.

I know that some people may gripe about the lowered pricing. Look at it like this:
Halo 3 comes out and costs $49.00  Not too many will buy it because of the high cost, company doesnt make much
Halo 3 comes out and costs $29.99  Many people will buy it, thus the company will make more profits

What do you think?

Bob


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## outphase (Jun 6, 2007)

QUOTE(stinkingbob @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> I know that some people may gripe about the lowered pricing. Look at it like this:
> Halo 3 comes out and costs $49.00 Not too many will buy it because of the high cost, company doesnt make much
> Halo 3 comes out and costs $29.99 Many people will buy it, thus the company will make more profits



Among everything, your views are slanted to the "cheap consumer" mentality. Also, to say Halo 3 will not sell at any price point (new 360 games are $60 right?), is just flawed thinking. I am not an xbox fan, but I can safely say Halo 3 will sell. There has yet to be definite marketable proof that lower price sales make up for higher price lack of sales.


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## bolton2 (Jun 6, 2007)

QUOTE([M said:
			
		

> artin @ Jun 5 2007, 07:48 PM)]People always ask this question and I always respond with:
> 
> *Are you insane?! THIS SHIT IS FREAKIN' FREE!!!*




that is what i call superior words of blatant wisdom


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## stinkingbob (Jun 6, 2007)

Outphase,  
I do believe in the cheap consumer reality as you put it. Why? Well, look at how many people are downloading games without paying. If that isn't cheap, then tell me what is. What you fail to look at are the reasons WHY people pirate instead of pay. My belief is that, among other things, pricing is a big deterrent. Now sure, Halo 3,4,5 will sell for big money.  The question is, do you sell the product for a really high price knowing that few persons will buy it or do you sell it at a lower price knowing that even more poeple will buy it.  I would rather go with the latter only because I want as many people to buy my product and I want my product to have a higher distribution world wide.  Remember when the PS3 came out and it cost around $600. Barring the production problems encountered and assuming that stores had ample stock of the console, how many people do oyou thik could afford $600. Not to mention the high proce of the game and add-ons.  Not many. Now, imagine the console costing $200.  Many many more people would be able to afford the console and buy it. THe company would thus make more money.
But, according to you,  there is no tangible proof of this.  So what you are basically saying is that people would prefer to buy gas at a station that charges $4.00/gallons rather than a station that charges $3.23/gallon, right?

B.


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## outphase (Jun 6, 2007)

Your PS3 analogy is flawed. One key reason is the PS3 is not 600 at cost according to Sony. Given the ~200 loss per unit, how can selling it at a $600 loss increase profits?

Also, I never said there would be a preference of the higher price. If prices were $10 lower all around, do you think that would increase sales, or would the same people that previously pirated continue to do so? Would that $10 decrease in price cause a shift in the balance that justifies the change in the first place?

Say 100 people are interested in playing game X at $50. Suppose 20 of those people are pirates or do not want to purchase, and all other 80 purchase. 80*50 = 400. Do you think that setting the price at $40 would cause all 20 people to purchase the game and keep the sales numbers the same? ie. 100*40=400. Suppose only 10 are pirates or do not want to purchase, and the other 90 purchase. 90*50 = 450. Lowering  the price to $40 will not allow the same 100 people to hit the target $450 in any combination. This was the point I was trying to make.


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## stinkingbob (Jun 6, 2007)

I understand what you are trying to say Outphase. For me I believe that people pirate mainly because of cost and because of bad marketing policy game companies impose (ie: you can't return an opened game).  So, the only option people have is to risk buying a game with the hopes that it is worth the money they spent for it. And in most cases, it is not. There may be a few good titles out there deserving a $29.99 price tag but the majority do not.
So now, this frustrates buyers. And what do they do: they pirate. 
I believe that most people are willing to buy games and not pirate if the cost of the game is reasonable. Of course there will be die hards that will always pirate no matter what, but these individuals are not so abundant. 
Take a look at the music fiasco. People were downloading songs for free. Why? Because they didn't want to pay $15 - $20 for a CD which only had 1 or two songs they liked.  So along came Apple and they invented the 99cent single song. Guess what? People started buying songs! THey didn't pirate them. Why? Because the 99cent price tag was affordable enugh that evyone could partake in it. Imagine if Apple charged 2.99 a song. People would be reluctant to pay that and go back to pirating.
So you see, people would really rather pay for something instead of pirating it. Its all up to the manufacturers and companies to actually find out why people pirate instead of trying to sue them.
B.


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## Veho (Jun 6, 2007)

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Jun 5 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Hanafuda @ Jun 5 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > THE MAN gets all my money. All of it. Whatever I have, I gotten by virtue of the money I have given THE MAN. I have paid for everything I have.
> ...


He had a knife. He said he was gonna cut me.


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## Smuff (Jun 6, 2007)

OMG not ANOTHER of these threads......   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Who cares if it's justifiable or not ? Justifiable to whom exactly ?

Either pirate or don't - if your conscience bothers you, see a priest (or equivalent)


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## xalphax (Jun 6, 2007)

you know...

i got a copy of their game

they can get a copy of my money if they want!


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## pikachucrackpipe (Jun 6, 2007)

abandonware is legal because the company no longer sells the product


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## rest0re (Jun 6, 2007)

one word: no


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## pikachucrackpipe (Jun 6, 2007)

i think it's funny that there are a number of people on a gba/ds rom release website that are against piracy.


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## outphase (Jun 6, 2007)

It's not being against piracy. I am against the misconception of its legality. There really isn't gray area here, it's illegal, but who cares? Some people must have to pussy foot around the topic in order to feel as if they're in the moral right. People just need to accept that it's illegal, unjustifiable, and relatively cheap... that said, I am cheap. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Also, abandonware is not a legal concept. It is not a protection under copyright law. Copyrights do not expire for 70 years beyond the death of the holder (or 95 years after release for companies). The reason they seem more legal than other forms of piracy is that there is no one to enforce the copyright. Look at ScummVM games. LucasArts and others do not actively sell the games, but they still enforce the copyrights.


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## pikachucrackpipe (Jun 6, 2007)

well i agree with you on the top part but as far as abandonware goes, i'm telling you what i've heard from pools of attorneys on the subject.


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## outphase (Jun 7, 2007)

Just because a company no longer markets a product does not mean the copyright is no longer valid. Like I said earlier though, with abandonware, you will probably not be served with copyright infringement as the holding entity will not likely press charges. Abandonware is a computer software concept, not a legal one.


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## square (Jun 7, 2007)

Anyone can use anything to justify anything. So the question is how does one justify it to one's self. Asking if one's justification is justifiable is up to personal interpretation.  There is a difference between justifiability and legality. Any lawyer will tell you that.


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## phoood (Jun 7, 2007)

I didn't read the content of this topic, just the title.

Piracy is not justifiable. No, never.  It is wrong.  We're all going to hell 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## OrR (Jun 7, 2007)

QUOTE(pikachucrackpipe @ Jun 6 2007 said:


> well i agree with you on the top part but as far as abandonware goes, i'm telling you what i've heard from pools of attorneys on the subject.


It's still wrong.


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## pikachucrackpipe (Jun 7, 2007)

well im not going to lose sleep over downloading lemmings to play at work


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## MADKATZ99 (Jun 9, 2007)

Paying for games is for sqaures. Save your money to buy (or steal  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) A fully sick car or somthing... Somthing worthwhile. 
You win girls with cars, not games. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




My veiw on it, is that I dont really know what justifiable means, so bare with me here, that burning games and selling them to make big profit is wrong, but then again, who cares? If the shops have a problem with it, they can lower their prices to make some competition 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



I allways think of it not as stealing, because its not like im walking into big W and walking out with a game case, no. Its not physical, so I dont believe it should have a price. Like downloading tunes!!! If the artists dont like it, dont make the music... see if I care. they should sing for the fun of it, gosh! Everyone wants somthing for nothing. Its only a few sound vibrations running though the air.. If they belive we should have to go into sanity and pay $40 some music on a disk, they have another thing coming!!! Im never going to pay to hear cirtain sound vibrations again, thanks to limewire. like "pirating" pay TV! Its allready running through everywere thanks to the satelights, its allmost a crime not to take advantage of that. Im not saying I get free pay TV (I probly would If I knew how), but.. hold on... half my words dissapeard...  Theres no edit undo!!!!!! Arg... 

Anyway, half of this probly doesnt make any sence, or have any relevence to anything, but thats what I think. 

Oh yeah, and unclechuckle makes some awesome points, that guys a genious. listen to that guy.


EDIT: 
I have one more question! How come the PS2 was about $700+ when it first came out, now they can make those new and improved PS2's and sell them for less than 250??? You cant tell me sony doesnt gain a crapload of cash when people bought them when they first came out. 
Is it because the prices for components decresed? Thats stupid... stupid components...


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## spas (Jun 9, 2007)

I get fed up of that faceless corp stuff.  Sometimes it might be true.

If we speak of rom piracy everyone in the uk has a dam ds but you ask them if they have seen or know what a ds-x or r4 is they will shrug.  Its pretty dormant in the UK.  So I dont feel bad about that at all.

As for other kinds of piracy I justify it by saying i'm a tight git and would never pay for it anyway.

All these big movie corps bitching when its just a bit of pocket money being lost.

I am always satisfied that piracy always leads to loss if I did not have a ds m3 I would sell my ds because I simply cant afford the games always.  I would read a book instead.  

I mean testing the games is very important I mean who do they want us to do go out on a whim and buy it read badly made reviews?  NO thanks!

IF and thats IF piracy was stopped complety in some magic way.  It would be hilarious to see how many people pick up a book or watch tv and the RIAA and MPAA start to scratch their heads.


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## Veho (Jun 9, 2007)

QUOTE(spas @ Jun 9 2007 said:


> IF and thats IF piracy was stopped complety in some magic way.Â It would be hilarious to see how many people pick up a book or watch tv and the RIAA and MPAA start to scratch their heads.


Very true.


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## legendofphil (Jun 9, 2007)

QUOTE(MADKATZ99 @ Jun 9 2007 said:


> I have one more question! How come the PS2 was about $700+ when it first came out, now they can make those new and improved PS2's and sell them for less than 250??? You cant tell me sony doesnt gain a crapload of cash when people bought them when they first came out.
> Is it because the prices for components decresed? Thats stupid... stupid components...



Sony (and MS) loose money on every console sold to a point, for MS last gen it was said to be 40m consoles each with 10 games of which 6 were first party. They make money on games and accessories. After awhile the components become cheaper and better quality. MS (for the original Xbox) did a contract for the components straight up and couldn't take advantage of falling costs and improved technology, they were forced to drop their prices by Nintendo and Sony.

If Nintendo and MS were to drop their prices now Sony would have to as well to stand a chance. Price drops usually happen in groups.

With Sony today, their development loses for the PS3 aren't that high as they developed most of the technology for other applications. Production costs are high at the moment, but will fall to a point where they either loose very little or make a profit on each unit. Not to mention all the other costs involved such as marketing.


If people weren't going to pay for it in the first place then piracy isn't loosing them any money from a lose of sale.
Think of this from the companies point of view, independant publishers and devs have a hard enough time making money as it is.
And the larger companies invest money into anti-piracy units.

We could see one of the best games ever appear, pirate it and sales aren't that good so we don't see anymore games from either the series or the developers. Which is a lose to us all. Poor sales might even be enough to cost somepeople their jobs.

Unlike the movie industry most games only get one shot at making money.


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## rest0re (Jun 9, 2007)

QUOTE(pikachucrackpipe @ Jun 6 2007 said:


> i think it's funny that there are a number of people on a gba/ds rom release website that are against piracy.


So what? Do you think there is justification for using meth or going to prostitutes when you are married? Hell no.
But I still do it, coz its possible. I dont think these anti-dmca hippies can't produce as good music as Daft Punk for example
FOR FREE. FOR FREE make good games... just a hippie dream which is not possible in real world. But real life is bitch and
there is no justification for piracy.


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## Taras (Jun 9, 2007)

Most of us are living under the banner of Klepto-Corporatist states and are subject to confiscatory taxes amounting to 50% or more of earned incomes and then there is the "silent tax" of inflation whereby the banks/treasury departments/executive branches conspire to enrich themselves through floodgate issuance of fiat currency which devalues cash in pocket, allows unchecked exponential growth of more needless government bureacracies which then puts us in de facto legal as well as economic servitude. Meanwhile the destruction of the middle class is evidenced by mergers, layoffs, credit frenzies enabled by the Central Banks, offshoring, illegal immigration and elitist corruption of every stripe. Healthcare costs (for Mericans), fuel prices, food costs (currently showing price inflation of 6.7%), energy/heat, infrastructure materials and services are all becoming more expensive at a pace unseen in decades. The average chap is getting squeezed from every direction and somebody has the gaul to say that it's immoral to try to recoup some costs of living (deliberately increased, mind you) through saving on their entertainment dollars. I don't pirate, I can afford my vices, but if I did, this is how I would justify it. Life is tough, I don't honestly care if some software Dev or movie Key Grip has to smoke pole for rent money. That's the type of world it is and if you are posting to this thread from the comfort of your parent's basement then check back in ten years after clawing and fighting for your share of the proverbial warm sidewalk and then tell me some business about morality.

/rant


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## rest0re (Jun 9, 2007)

QUOTE(Taras @ Jun 9 2007 said:


> Most of us are living under the banner of Klepto-Corporatist states and are subject to confiscatory taxes amounting to 50% or more of earned incomes and then there is the "silent tax" of inflation whereby the banks/treasury departments/executive branches conspire to enrich themselves through floodgate issuance of fiat currency which devalues cash in pocket, allows unchecked exponential growth of more needless government bureacracies which then puts us in de facto legal as well as economic servitude. Meanwhile the destruction of the middle class is evidenced by mergers, layoffs, credit frenzies enabled by the Central Banks, offshoring, illegal immigration and elitist corruption of every stripe. Healthcare costs (for Mericans), fuel prices, food costs (currently showing price inflation of 6.7%), energy/heat, infrastructure materials and services are all becoming more expensive at a pace unseen in decades. The average chap is getting squeezed from every direction and somebody has the gaul to say that it's immoral to try to recoup some costs of living (deliberately increased, mind you) through saving on their entertainment dollars. I don't pirate, I can afford my vices, but if I did, this is how I would justify it. Life is tough, I don't honestly care if some software Dev or movie Key Grip has to smoke pole for rent money. That's the type of world it is and if you are posting to this thread from the comfort of your parent's basement then check back in ten years after clawing and fighting for your share of the proverbial warm sidewalk and then tell me some business about morality.
> 
> /rant


i totally agree with you still, HOW MUCH ENTERTAIMENT YOU NEED? god damn .. you can save some money and buy one game. you dont need to play all the time or watch all the dvds and shit. i mean if you are poor you go with stick and stones, but i agree with you man... but this is how this shitty world works...


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## Taras (Jun 9, 2007)

QUOTE(rest0re @ Jun 9 2007 said:


> i totally agree with you still, HOW MUCH ENTERTAIMENT YOU NEED? god damn ..



Good question Bro. Not to get philosophical, but I think once the basic needs of survival are met (food, shelter, bling-bling), then all existence becomes about wasting time. Church, gaming, clubs, t.v., recreation, hobbies, social outings, relationships, inciting the homeless to fight, most everything except for work and school (which both indirectly point back to survival) and tending to the bare necessities are to divert our attention.

"Against boredom, even the gods struggle in vain" - Nietzsche


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## outphase (Jun 9, 2007)

QUOTE(veho @ Jun 9 2007 said:


> QUOTE(spas @ Jun 9 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > IF and thats IF piracy was stopped complety in some magic way.Â It would be hilarious to see how many people pick up a book or watch tv and the RIAA and MPAA start to scratch their heads.
> > Very true.



I can see the headlines now. "Digital media eradicated, but CD and movie ticket sales still stagnant. RIAA and MPAA join forces to sue McGraw-Hill for loss of profits and consumer confusion."


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## Veho (Jun 10, 2007)

QUOTE(outphase @ Jun 9 2007 said:


> I can see the headlines now. "Digital media eradicated, but CD and movie ticket sales still stagnant. RIAA and MPAA join forces to sue McGraw-Hill for loss of profits and consumer confusion."


How about trying to sue movie/games producers for making crap so bad that people wouldn't even look at it if it weren't free? Because trying to pursue anyone in that case costs more money than the movie would have made if it weren't available for download.


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## Hyperboy (Feb 27, 2010)

Yep


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## ProtoKun7 (Feb 27, 2010)

Hyperboy said:
			
		

> Yep


Yeah, nice bump


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## spotanjo3 (Feb 27, 2010)

yay pirates but I will buy games if it is so worth for me. Therefore, if it is too expensive then I will pirate it because expensive is ridiculous.


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