# Nintendo's legal team has stepped in to end development on fanmade Metroid project Prime 2D



## DKB (Aug 28, 2021)

Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.


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## CheeseMan13 (Aug 28, 2021)

Was actually excited for this, fuck this bs

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DKB said:


> Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.



Replace your Nintendo characters in your fangame with Touhou characters and you can _sell_ your fangame on _all platforms_


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## SG854 (Aug 28, 2021)

Fan projects are like X-Parasites to Nintendo


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## bobmcjr (Aug 28, 2021)

If you're going to take the time to make a Nintendo fan game/project of any kind, DON'T FUCKING ANNOUNCE IT UNTIL IT'S 100% COMPLETE.

It's not that hard, and "we didn't think they would DMCA it" is not an excuse in 2021 after Nintendo have been pulling this for decades now.


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## SS4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Fan projects need to be kept private and hidden until fully completed otherwise Nintendon't and the like will always shut them down.


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## NinStar (Aug 28, 2021)

One advice I have for anyone developing a fan game (or even a mod), don't give it exposure before it is finished. I know it can be difficult, but it's 100% effective, because once it is on the internet Nintendo can do nothing about it.


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## Phenj (Aug 28, 2021)

This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.

Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


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## limpbiz411 (Aug 28, 2021)

i wish they never released the demo and just released the full version.


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## Arras (Aug 28, 2021)

Sure it sucks, but this game is different enough from Prime in the first place that they can replace Metroid characters/assets and turn it into an original game with relatively minimal loss of work. There's definitely stuff to be done here besides throwing up their hands and quitting.


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## Something whatever (Aug 28, 2021)

Two rules of making a Nintendo IP fangame

1)Never sell it for profit *of course*
2) NEVER ANNOUNCE IT TO THE PUBLIC UNTILL ITS FINISHED

Man I was looking forward to this one


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## Xzi (Aug 28, 2021)

DKB said:


> Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.


Or don't announce them until they're completely finished, and host the download only as a torrent.


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## Lodad (Aug 28, 2021)

I'd say it's time to tweak asset visuals until they're outside the realm of copyright infringement and develop it the rest of the way as their own game.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 28, 2021)

i get wanting to make fangames but I don't get trying to make them public again and again despite knowing that they will lead to a c&d the moment someone notices.

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Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


but legally speaking, it is and they are not only right, they are bound by copyright law to react to this in negative ways.


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## yusuo (Aug 28, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


Dude says on a predominantly Nintendo based website.

Nintendo are known for being extremely litigious, to the point where they're assholes about thier properties, but this is a well known fact and fan made games should be kept quiet until they're done, can't stop the ball once it starts rolling.

Shame really that they're the Pixar of game makers, geniuses in their art.


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## subcon959 (Aug 28, 2021)

Clydefrosch said:


> but legally speaking, it is and they are not only right, they are bound by copyright law to react to this in negative ways.


I don't think bound is an appropriate word, there are others that have the same legal grounds but actively encourage fans to produce stuff.


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## Issac (Aug 28, 2021)

Yeah, this was sad, but expected. It's a surprise to nobody, not even the devs. They succeeded though, they gave out a stellar demo of the game, and showed their worth. They got attention by riding off a loved franchise, and now they can create an original game and be known for being "the ones who made the amazing Prime 2D demo". 

Any to anyone who hasn't already tried it: DO IT! It's bloody amazing! Better than most of Nintendo's own efforts, and I say that as a Metroid fan.


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## Hells Malice (Aug 28, 2021)

I don't really understand putting so much time and effort into making someone else's IP. Like damn...just make Matroid, a game following Séamus Aran, a chick in an irish suit that lets her turn into a cylinder that can lay plasma landmines



Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".



Based on your avatar I betcha still play their games. Which would mean you just find vague sad reasons to love Nintendo's games and pretend your poor ass is stealing their work for a justified reason lol. Big oof.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Meanwhile Sega hires the best and brightest modders and fan game creators, throws money at them and creates Sonic Mania, the best thing since S3&K. Good job, Nintendo. Bass-ackwards approach to the fan base as usual.


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## WiiMiiSwitch (Aug 28, 2021)

You know these fan games promote you Nintendo right?
You and your lawyers need to learn that you'd be nothing without the fans


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## Jacobh (Aug 28, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I don't think bound is an appropriate word, there are others that have the same legal grounds but actively encourage fans to produce stuff.



The previous poster is correct. If they don’t attempt to stop things like this, then they are going to have trouble stopping other infringement that is more problematic. They can lose any Metroid related trademarks if they don’t attempt to protect them. This is different than copyright protection. With new Metroid games still coming out they will want to protect their trademarks and prevent other people from using them. To do that unfortunately they have to go after games like this.


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## WiiMiiSwitch (Aug 28, 2021)

Jacobh said:


> The previous poster is correct. If they don’t attempt to stop things like this, then they are going to have trouble stopping other infringement that is more problematic. They can lose any Metroid related trademarks if they don’t attempt to protect them. This is different than copyright protection. With new Metroid games still coming out they will want to protect their trademarks and prevent other people from using them. To do that unfortunately they have to go after games like this.


Well, fan games promote the game, as when people play this fan made game, they will want MORE


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## SaulFabre (Aug 28, 2021)

That's not fair that Nintendo again stopped a great fan-made game... 

They did the same with N64 fan-game TLOZ: The Missing Link time ago...


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## WiiMiiSwitch (Aug 28, 2021)

SaulFabre said:


> That's not fair that Nintendo again stopped a great fan-made game...
> 
> They did the same with N64 fan-game TLOZ: The Missing Link time ago...


They do this all the time
I remember back in 2014 a kid made a SM64 HD remaster and it was banned
Pretty horrible how copyright gives so much power to companies


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Jacobh said:


> The previous poster is correct. If they don’t attempt to stop things like this, then they are going to have trouble stopping other infringement that is more problematic. They can lose any Metroid related trademarks if they don’t attempt to protect them. This is different than copyright protection. With new Metroid games still coming out they will want to protect their trademarks and prevent other people from using them. To do that unfortunately they have to go after games like this.


There are different ways to go about it. Let's be real here, there are boatloads of fan games out there, and out of all of the companies in the industry Nintendo is easily the most litigious when it comes to shutting them down. It's very obvious to me that they're not just defending the trademark, they're also concerned that fan games of sufficient quality will affect the sales of their own products. A2MR didn't receive a C&D for no reason whatsoever - that project got canned because Nintendo had Samus Returns up their sleeve which released a year after their legal team got involved. I presume this is a similar move considering Metroid Dread is on the horizon.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Meanwhile Sega hires the best and brightest modders and fan game creators, throws money at them and creates Sonic Mania, the best thing since S3&K. Good job, Nintendo. Bass-ackwards approach to the fan base as usual.


which is all fine and dandy until microsoft decides to take a chance and just release a sonic game of their own, then argue in court that with the way sega is handling the sonic ip, they've basically released him and everything related to him into public domain.


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## Exidous (Aug 28, 2021)

Chary said:


> This bit of news follows the shutdown of the Project+ bracket at this year's Riptide tournament, while also ironically occurring during the same week as Sonic Amateur Games Expo, in which SEGA actively encourages fans to create fan-made romhacks and even full games based on their properties.


Look, I'm all for unlimited piracy forever, but this is NOT a good way to persuade Nintendo.

Sega is endlessly prostituted, spent slag in terms of intellectual property, they barely honored their properties while they were a console hardware manufacturer. At this point Sega is _purely _mismanagement and lazy cash ins, after such mismanagement led to them getting eaten by a _pachinko company_. Pointing Nintendo to them is likely to ward them away from any identified thing Sega does, _especially_ in the realm of IP.

Fun fact: that controlling share in Sega, which Sammy (the pachinko company) bought? $1 billion, ~15 years ago. Some (probably several) cell phone game company is worth ten times that.

EDIT re fun fact: Nintendo also has ten times that in _cash on hand_, and consistently has done so since the Wii launched.


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## XDel (Aug 28, 2021)

rename it


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Clydefrosch said:


> which is all fine and dandy until microsoft decides to take a chance and just release a sonic game of their own, then argue in court that with the way sega is handling the sonic ip, they've basically released him and everything related to him into public domain.


See above. Sonic fan games are celebrated and plentiful, to the point that they get an occasional mention on their official channels. It's not as if I get to draw a Mickey Mouse and as long as Disney doesn't respond, their trademark is now invalid - my drawing would have to demonstrably undercut their business, it doesn't just "happen".


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 28, 2021)

WiiMiiSwitch said:


> Well, fan games promote the game, as when people play this fan made game, they will want MORE


except honestly, there is not much proof for or against that and reality is probably a lot more 50/50 with some people not buying that switch for dread because they got their fill and some passing the game till it's cheaper.


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## Axido (Aug 28, 2021)

Oof.
All the effort going to waste. I am currently making my own game that could be considered a fangame. Yet I do program everything with a plan B in mind that might even allow me to sell it in case I'm not able to license the IP properly. Dear devs, please always think ahead in this regard.


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## The Catboy (Aug 28, 2021)

Sega: Loves fan games, helps by sponsoring them, holds fan game events, hires homebrew devs.
Nintendo: Will DMCA your thoughts if you even think about their games.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> See above. Sonic fan games are celebrated and plentiful, to the point that they get an occasional mention on their official channels. It's not as if I get to draw a Mickey Mouse and as long as Disney doesn't respond, their trademark is now invalid - my drawing would have to demonstrably undercut their business, it doesn't just "happen".


no, it's a bit more complicated than that and you would have no grounds to argue that disney isn't protecting its ip.
meanwhile, sega is kinda pretty far out there, actively encouraging and rewarding ip violation. which most companies wouldn't risk taking advantage of, but they pretty much could.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Clydefrosch said:


> except honestly, there is not much proof for or against that and reality is probably a lot more 50/50 with some people not buying that switch for dread because they got their fill and some passing the game till it's cheaper.


Well then maybe Nintendo should get off their asses and actually finish Metroid Prime 4 which I originally preordered... *checks calendar* 4 years ago, before rolling the order over onto a game that actually did come out on schedule. Did that as soon as they announced that they scrapped the whole thing and started over.


Clydefrosch said:


> no, it's a bit more complicated than that and you would have no grounds to argue that disney isn't protecting its ip.
> meanwhile, sega is kinda pretty far out there, actively encouraging and rewarding ip violation. which most companies wouldn't risk taking advantage of, but they pretty much could.


Seems to have done wonders in terms of keeping the IP alive despite a string of trash fire releases. For all intents and purposes the Sonic brand should be dead by now, and would be if not for dedicated fans.


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## Edgarska (Aug 28, 2021)

Obviously I think this is dumb on Nintendo's part, but it's even dumber on the part of the developers.

How fucking stupid do you have to be to announce your fan made game based on a Nintendo IP before it's completed?


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Edgarska said:


> Obviously I think this is dumb on Nintendo's part, but it's even dumber on the part of the developers.
> 
> How fucking stupid do you have to be to announce your fan made game based on a Nintendo IP before it's completed?


Be careful, better check your inbox, you might have a C&D waiting for you in regards to that illegal avatar you've got over there. Someone might confuse that with a genuine Nintendo product, we can't have that.


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## stanleyopar2000 (Aug 28, 2021)

Something whatever said:


> Two rules of making a Nintendo IP fangame
> 
> 1)Never sell it for profit *of course*
> 2) NEVER ANNOUNCE IT TO THE PUBLIC UNTILL ITS FINISHED
> ...



3. SHUT THE FUCK UP


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Well then maybe Nintendo should get off their asses and actually finish Metroid Prime 4 which I originally preordered... *checks calendar* 4 years ago, before rolling the order over onto a game that actually did come out on schedule. Did that as soon as they announced that they scrapped the whole thing and started over.
> 
> Seems to have done wonders in terms of keeping the IP alive despite a string of trash fire releases. For all intents and purposes the Sonic brand should be dead by now, and would be if not for dedicated fans.



maybe next time don't preorder just because some dumb retailer gets twitchy fingers based on a fucking title reveal.
nintendo didn't ask you to earmark your money in advance.

also, yes, keeping ip alive is great, but not if you don't hold the legal rights to it anymore.
that's why disney is literally paying off the world to edit copyright laws every few decades so they can keep holding copyrights over rehashed ips they could only create because their original copyrights ran out.

again, the second someone tries this route with the sonic ip, sega is gonna have a hard time arguing that... only they can do and profit of sonic. it'd be unprofessional and it has to be someone who can throw a couple bucks towards lawyers for a bit. but they could do it


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## ov3rkill (Aug 28, 2021)

Jacobh said:


> The previous poster is correct. If they don’t attempt to stop things like this, then they are going to have trouble stopping other infringement that is more problematic. They can lose any Metroid related trademarks if they don’t attempt to protect them. This is different than copyright protection. With new Metroid games still coming out they will want to protect their trademarks and prevent other people from using them. To do that unfortunately they have to go after games like this.



Agree. Or Nintendo could also approach this type of situation like what Sega did especially if it is a really good one - absorb it or hire the guys behind the development. Not sure if it would pass up to Nintendo's standard or quality but whatever it is, making an enemy especially of the fans and community isn't the right move. I totally get they are just protecting their intellectual properties and it is within their rights, but usually people who painstakingly spend a lot of time making fan-made games on some of their franchises have passion, which also says a lot of the developer. Nintendo should not alienate their user base.


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## Edgarska (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Be careful, better check your inbox, you might have a C&D waiting for you in regards to that illegal avatar you've got over there. Someone might confuse that with a genuine Nintendo product, we can't have that.


What do you mean? This is clearly a drawing of an actor with an "M" for Machete on it.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 28, 2021)

ov3rkill said:


> Agree. Or Nintendo could also approach this type of situation like what Sega did especially if it is a really good one - absorb it or hire the guys behind the development. Not sure if it would pass up to Nintendo's standard or quality but whatever it is, making an enemy especially of the fans and community isn't the right move. I totally get they are just protecting their intellectual properties and it is within their rights, but usually people who painstakingly spend a lot of time making fan-made games on some of their franchises have passion, which also says a lot of the developer. Nintendo should not alienate their user base.



you say that like sega has hired the 10000+ people who made and make these games, when it was like, probably less than a dozen.
also. spending 16+ years not finishing a game also isn't the grandest accomplishment either. now i know, fan project, little time spend on it, no financial support. but still, what does nintendo gain from this other than rewarding the thing they can not reward honestly?

people just gotta understand that ultimately, for all studios but nintendo in particular, they can only make inspired games, that's just how it is


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Clydefrosch said:


> maybe next time don't preorder just because some dumb retailer gets twitchy fingers based on a fucking title reveal.
> nintendo didn't ask you to earmark your money in advance.
> 
> also, yes, keeping ip alive is great, but not if you don't hold the legal rights to it anymore.
> ...


They absolutely will not due to 30 years of prior art. The purpose of a trademark is to distinguish it on the market as a genuine product. If another product clearly states that it is not a genuine article and it is not engaged in direct competition with the original, there can be no such confusion and the trademark is in no way threatened. The mark can only lose its strength if the protected item becomes so commonplace that it enters public domain. Unauthorised use of a trademarked property is indeed messy business, but I cannot imagine it reaching that point in this case since the brand recognition is too strong to disassociate it from the parent company owning it.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> They absolutely will not due to 30 years of prior art. The purpose of a trademark is to distinguish it on the market as a genuine product. If another product clearly states that it is not a genuine article and it is not engaged in direct competition with the original, there can be no such confusion and the trademark is in no way threatened. The mark can only lose its strength if the protected item becomes so commonplace that it enters public domain. Unauthorised use of a trademarked property is indeed messy business, but I cannot imagine it reaching that point in this case since the brand recognition is too strong to disassociate it from the parent company owning it.


you know i'm no legal expert, but there's a difference between copyright and trademark.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Clydefrosch said:


> you know i'm no legal expert, but there's a difference between copyright and trademark.


Don't forget the service mark!

EDIT: To draw a little parallel to other products, the name "Pampers" is a trademarked name of a specific brand of nappies. It's also how everybody calls nappies regardless of brand where I come from - it became part of the language. That doesn't mean that Procter & Gamble no longer owns the trademark, but it has weakened as the name itself became synonymous with the product. As far as the consumer is concerned, every nappy is a "pampers". If Nintendo actually wanted to protect their trademark, they would have to join forces with Konami and pursue everybody using the term "Metroidvania", since that's what the trademark actually protects, along with logos and other assorted guff.


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## Lazyt (Aug 28, 2021)

Honestly why did they brag about this in a first place


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## Jacobh (Aug 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Don't forget the service mark!
> 
> EDIT: To draw a little parallel to other products, the name "Pampers" is a trademarked name of a specific brand of nappies. It's also how everybody calls nappies regardless of brand where I come from - it became part of the language. That doesn't mean that Procter & Gamble no longer owns the trademark, but it has weakened as the name itself became synonymous with the product. As far as the consumer is concerned, every nappy is a "pampers". If Nintendo actually wanted to protect their trademark, they would have to join forces with Konami and pursue everybody using the term "Metroidvania", since that's what the trademark actually protects, along with logos and other assorted guff.



There are cases of companies losing trademarks because they have become generic or not shown they were actively protecting them.  The word thermos lost it’s trademark (although they still have it with an uppercase T).    

Metroidvania is actually perfect example of something that cannot be  trademarked. It’s a term referring to an entire genre of games (not a specific product) and the word itself references two products.

Nintendo does have a trademark on Metroid Prime and the logo, color scheme and don’t used in conjunction. This game was literally called Metroid Prime 2D and directly referencing the product.  Had they called it a Space Metroidvania and not used designs directly from Metroid Prime they would be fine. 

I’d rather Nintendo not take down this game, but IP law doesn’t really care what I think.


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## xdarkx (Aug 29, 2021)

I expected the C&D from Nintendo, but didn't expect it took them this long after the devs released the demo.  But like I said in the original thread, seems like the devs are new and not aware on how protective Nintendo is with their IP.


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## Shrommygnome (Aug 29, 2021)

What were they expecting? Its just a matter of time


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## Jayro (Aug 29, 2021)

Stupid-ass should have kept it a secret until it was done.

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SaulFabre said:


> That's not fair that Nintendo again stopped a great fan-made game...
> 
> They did the same with N64 fan-game TLOZ: The Missing Link time ago...


Lol, I already made that game on the PS1 using RPG Maker in 1999. I created that title.


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## RichardTheKing (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


So correlating "hardcore defending Nintendo" with baldness, weight issues, physical unattractiveness, three decades of age, and celibacy.
Ooookay. So what if someone's 29 or 31? Can they not be labelled "hardcore defenders"? Or what if they still have hair, like a lot of women do, and some proportion of men? Or if they have had intimacy before, like in their twenties or teens?

Great job generalising and stereotyping, guy.


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## EvilJagaGenius (Aug 29, 2021)

So this discussion makes me sad as I'm trying to go into game development.  I don't like working on total fangames as a rule and because of incidents like this, I'm trying to work on my own IP that I can make money off of and/or open-source as I wish.  It doesn't depress me because of the thought of getting shut down at any moment by the IP owner, the depressing thought is having to shut down every fangame, piece of fanart, everything related to my own game for fear of losing my copyright, trademark, and IP.

...unless I conclude that that line of thinking is a complete lie.  Which I do.

I know little about copyright law, but as many people have mentioned before, Sega seems to be doing just fine with their fanbase doing all their hard work for them.  Bethesda doesn't seem to have lost any legal clout from fans fixing their games.  Same for Valve and id Software, letting people use their engines and games as basis for their own projects.  To say nothing of Mojang, Lego, many others.  I see no practical legal necessity for nuking every fan creation connected to an IP.  And yet...

This is also why I have no intention of developing for Nintendo systems outside of homebrew.  Devkits are expensive and I just don't want to be associated with this.


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## raxadian (Aug 29, 2021)

Stuff like this is why the Nes Metroid HD thing is a mod and not a fangame.


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## fst312 (Aug 29, 2021)

CheeseMan13 said:


> Was actually excited for this, fuck this bs
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



It can still play like metroid prime too, you know inspired by metroid prime just like that recent game that was announced here that’s inspired by zelda.


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## tabzer (Aug 29, 2021)

Raise your hand if you are oppressed by Nintendo.


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## CMDreamer (Aug 29, 2021)

I believe the main issue is not about a fan project being made, but the fact that in making such fan project, the developer is using Nintendo's IP (i.e. Samus, Samus' ship, the Metroid name, etc.)

As already has been pointed out. Change all references to Nintendo's IP into your own concept and create your game and no one will ever bother you with C&D requests.

The main idea of the game can be kept intact and as good as it is while having its own "soul", no need to use someone's IP to make it a success, the developer has the main concept going perfectly as the already released demo can prove.

Edit.
From most comments here I can see that many people love to play victim's role and being "forced" to create something out of the ground as a threat.


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## Brigand (Aug 29, 2021)

A shame. Nintendo are absolutely in the right but it's still annoying that they defend their IP with so much gusto when it comes to fan made games that are non-commercial. Fan games are a big part of keeping up the love for Nintendo. I hope this doesn't deter people from making their games, I just wish people would learn to finish and release them before advertising. Then again, I do understand how difficult this would be, especially if there is a large team involved in the game's development.


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## deinonychus71 (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".



Some indies were able to release games including Nintendo IPs, Cadence of Hyrule being one.
There's a right, legal way to do this if you can convince the IP owner.

That doesn't mean I like how Nintendo deal with it either, heck I'm heavily involved in modding myself and I get how saddening it can be to have your work just torn apart by people who clearly don't like video games, but I'll defend them any day over the type of individual that you seem to represent.


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## Boydy86 (Aug 29, 2021)

Would be in Nintendos interests to adopt a platform where fan based games using their IP, could be uploaded and distributed freely, regardless of how crap it is.  With a clause whereby if the game turns heads, they can drop a hammer that assimilates all copyrights.  And maybe a small, "Pat on the back/don't quit your day job." cheque.


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## Wavy (Aug 29, 2021)

CheeseMan13 said:


> Replace your Nintendo characters in your fangame with Touhou characters and you can _sell_ your fangame on _all platforms_


Funny enough, people were somewhat doing this since 2005.


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## 64bitmodels (Aug 29, 2021)

yusuo said:


> Dude says on a predominantly Nintendo based website.
> 
> Nintendo are known for being extremely litigious, to the point where they're assholes about thier properties, but this is a well known fact and fan made games should be kept quiet until they're done, can't stop the ball once it starts rolling.
> 
> Shame really that they're the Pixar of game makers, geniuses in their art.


A predominantly nintendo based website full of dudes who constantly hack their consoles to get free games from them because we don't like supporting them


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## BitMasterPlus (Aug 29, 2021)

Aw man, now that's a real damn shame.


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## NoobletCheese (Aug 29, 2021)

I don't understand, was it monetised?


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## jomaper (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


Hey dude, being fat has nothing to do with this. Am fat and hate this shit.


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## tabzer (Aug 29, 2021)

you can make a game using non ip content, and then when it is finished, covertly release a mod pack that transforms the game into the IP defilement that it was intended to be.


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## ZeroFX (Aug 29, 2021)

lol, yeah, if you're doing a project like that here's a free tip, showcase it with under another name and with placeholder sprites then after launch you release a patch "anonymously" with the actual sprites and names.

actually i would do that if i worked in a project like that.

Edit:



tabzer said:


> you can make a game using non ip content, and then when it is finished, covertly release a mod pack that transforms the game into the IP defilement that it was intended to be.


lol i thought the same.


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## the_randomizer (Aug 29, 2021)

Now I feel even less bad pirating their older games


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## diggeloid (Aug 29, 2021)

The devs should ride on this media coverage and do a rerelease without any Metroid. There has to be _something_ good to come from Nintendo being such assholes.


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## ChaoticCinnabon (Aug 29, 2021)

Nintendo can and will raze anything based on their IPs, and will usually steal ideas from them to boot.
_Cough Cough Am2r Cough Cough_

Really though, as much as i want to feel bad, and don't go thinking i'm defending nintendo here either because their PR department is literally one of the worst ever, but don't fucking announce nintendo fan products until they're finished, yes you'll get a lovely legal threat either way but at least people can immortalize your works if they're fully released, Pokemon Uranium and Am2r are still thriving to this day as examples.



Anyways off i go to mark Metroid Dread on my "To pirate" list, that 80 dollars can get me something from a respectful indie dev or even Sega lmao.


----------



## TheZander (Aug 29, 2021)

This isn't cool. I hope they still make and release it somehow.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 29, 2021)

Jacobh said:


> Metroidvania is actually perfect example of something that cannot be  trademarked. It’s a term referring to an entire genre of games (not a specific product) and the word itself references two products.


You specifically wouldn't be able to trademark it *because* both the words "Metroid" and "Castlevania" are trademarked. What it refers to is somewhat immaterial, a trademarked name can refer to a range of products. Not that it really matters, of course.


----------



## MultiKoopa (Aug 29, 2021)

jesus cshrist nintendo


----------



## 64bitmodels (Aug 29, 2021)

ChaoticCinnabon said:


> Nintendo can and will raze anything based on their IPs, and will usually steal ideas from them to boot.
> _Cough Cough Am2r Cough Cough_
> 
> Really though, as much as i want to feel bad, and don't go thinking i'm defending nintendo here either because their PR department is literally one of the worst ever, but don't fucking announce nintendo fan products until they're finished, yes you'll get a lovely legal threat either way but at least people can immortalize your works if they're fully released, Pokemon Uranium and Am2r are still thriving to this day as examples.
> ...


why would you want to pirate a shitty game anyways


----------



## Zeldaplayer67 (Aug 29, 2021)

Called it. The devs must be idiots to think it wouldn't have been taken down.



ChaoticCinnabon said:


> Nintendo can and will raze anything based on their IPs, and will usually steal ideas from them to boot.
> _Cough Cough Am2r Cough Cough_


And Mario 35 was a straight ripoff of the fan project. There is no way in hell that it was just a coincidence.


----------



## chrisrlink (Aug 29, 2021)

Nintendo: we need to protect our IP translates to We need to be douchebags to fan devs in my language god forbid i'll be US president I'd scrap the DMCA outright pull the original bill and use it as TP


----------



## Deleted member 532471 (Aug 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Fan projects are like X-Parasites to Nintendo


Nintendo is like the Ridley of fan projects

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Nintendo fan games have to be kept in secret until finished unfortunately...
Nintendo is becoming the Boogeyman of video games


----------



## Vorde (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


Nintendo's legal team is basically why I don't buy Nintendo stuff anymore. If I do it's used so that it's not my money they're getting from me. It's a real shame they continue again and again to take these kinds of actions.


----------



## Kilim (Aug 29, 2021)

remember to do your due diligence and pirate nintendo games instead of buying them!


----------



## 64bitmodels (Aug 29, 2021)

Kilim said:


> remember to do your due diligence and pirate nintendo games instead of buying them!


and whenever you see a nintendo fanboy or soyboy, spit on them.... even if theyre on your monitor


----------



## tabzer (Aug 29, 2021)

The stockholme's syndrome is real.

Is the problem with Nintendo following and employing the law?

Or is the problem the law?

You can pretty much not give a fuck about NIntendo and live a life without them.  People arguing for or against Nintendo are demonstrating a need for Nintendo to be in their lives.


----------



## MadMakuFuuma (Aug 29, 2021)

DKB said:


> Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.



or, not show the game UNTIL it finished. release and, one day or more later, nintendo can do whatever they want to shut down the project, but the game is already downloaded by people who going to share in trackers and so on...



yusuo said:


> Nintendo are known for being extremely litigious, to the point where they're assholes about thier properties, but this is a well known fact and fan made games should be kept quiet until they're done, can't stop the ball once it starts rolling.



this


----------



## x65943 (Aug 29, 2021)

Someone should make a fan game where you play as Nintendo's lawyers submitting DMCA requests and suing fans


----------



## Henx (Aug 29, 2021)

Remember, this comes from a company that released an expensive Super Mario 3D All-Stars switch compilation for a limited time in order to milk their loyal fans. These old games could have been available on the nintendo online shop, but no! Good luck trying to buy that now!
Let's just wait for the next limited series: Mario Tennis compilation, Mario golf compilation, Mario Fun Party compilation.

And while we are at it, let's throw some ideas that could have been mods, but instead let's sell these to our victims (cough... fans). We like the milk: Super Mario Cousins Ltd, Super Mario Ultra King 5x speed, Super Mario Save and Load State, Super Mario Bros Multiplayer 1 year with friends, Luigi shrinks friends, Wario's Nightmare Land, Yoshi dreams of Peach.
All copyrighted. No taking my ideas Nintendo!


----------



## tabzer (Aug 29, 2021)

Henx said:


> Remember, this comes from a company that released an expensive Super Mario 3D All-Stars switch compilation for a limited time in order to milk their loyal fans. These old games could have been available on the nintendo online shop, but no! Good luck trying to buy that now!
> Let's just wait for the next limited series: Mario Tennis compilation, Mario golf compilation, Mario Fun Party compilation.
> 
> And while we are at it, let's throw some ideas that could have been mods, but instead let's sell these to our victims (cough... fans). We like the milk: Super Mario Cousins Ltd, Super Mario Ultra King 5x speed, Super Mario Save and Load State, Super Mario Bros Multiplayer 1 year with friends, Luigi shrinks friends, Wario's Nightmare Land, Yoshi dreams of Peach.
> All copyrighted. No taking my ideas Nintendo!



What's even better is that they probably used the work of emulators/roms developed by its fanbase.


----------



## tpax (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet.





But I have to agree to some degree. 
On a moral index out of the big 3 console manufacturers, they treat their fans the worst and the level of arrogance is comparable to EA.


----------



## DoctorBagPhD (Aug 29, 2021)

Feels good to have bought a second-hand unpatched Switch and not need to worry about financially supporting those ghouls.


----------



## Boydy86 (Aug 29, 2021)

x65943 said:


> Someone should make a fan game where you play as Nintendo's lawyers submitting DMCA requests and suing fans


YES!  Main character should be 9 year old Paco Gutierrez!


----------



## ChiefReginod (Aug 29, 2021)

Nintendo died with Iwata.


----------



## Ampersound (Aug 29, 2021)

Does someone have a mirror to the demo? I can't find it online.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Raise your hand if you are oppressed by Nintendo.


Nintendo spit in my cereal and kicked my dog.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Nintendo spit in my cereal and kicked my dog.



With the way some people are acting, you'd might think that actually happened.


----------



## Phenj (Aug 29, 2021)

Hells Malice said:


> I don't really understand putting so much time and effort into making someone else's IP. Like damn...just make Matroid, a game following Séamus Aran, a chick in an irish suit that lets her turn into a cylinder that can lay plasma landmines
> 
> 
> 
> Based on your avatar I betcha still play their games. Which would mean you just find vague sad reasons to love Nintendo's games and pretend your poor ass is stealing their work for a justified reason lol. Big oof.


"Based on your avatar I betcha still play their games."
Ah yes. very clever argument, based on your picture then what should i think? That you're a complete moron? I don't even have a Switch lmao


----------



## tpax (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> "Based on your avatar I betcha still play their games."
> Ah yes. very clever argument, based on your picture then what should i think? That you're a complete moron?



I don't think that you'd be wrong with that conclusion.


----------



## leon315 (Aug 29, 2021)

bobmcjr said:


> If you're going to take the time to make a Nintendo fan game/project of any kind, DON'T FUCKING ANNOUNCE IT UNTIL IT'S 100% COMPLETE.
> 
> It's not that hard, and "we didn't think they would DMCA it" is not an excuse in 2021 after Nintendo have been pulling this for decades now.


hey, if the project is nearly 100% finished, they can be still "accidentally" leaked, as far as Nintondo won't able to prove it was mod devs to upload it.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Aug 29, 2021)

they should have known what was going to happen after AM2R! these people are just beyond DAFT. don't they realize what nintendo has become? *NINTAPPLE*!


----------



## HideoKojima (Aug 29, 2021)

Nintendo is not Valve.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



WiiMiiSwitch said:


> You know these fan games promote you Nintendo right?
> You and your lawyers need to learn that you'd be nothing without the fans


While I support fan games, Nintendo is right, the promotion they get from fan games can't be compared with their losses.


----------



## MrHuu (Aug 29, 2021)

Hi!
Did you notice the new ( continued ) upcoming Metroid game trailer Nintendo just released:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/new-metroid-dread-trailer-released.593303/

I don't think Nintendo gives a sh*t about the few people being offended by this.
And the funny thing is, they shouldn't.


----------



## Spider_Man (Aug 29, 2021)

Nintendont shpuld focus on making new games than hunting down fans making fan based games.

Sick of seeing nintendo shutting fans down, its a shame the fanboys cant wake up and stop blindly following this greedy company that prints money releasing cheap shit inferior consoles with bullshit gimmicms to play old ports and the same old recycled shit and then try sue everyone they possibly can and sending their cockroach legal team after anyone they possibly can.

Nintendo need to wake up and show some respect to their fans in that these fans are doing a better job than nintendo are doing themselves.


----------



## smilodon (Aug 29, 2021)

At this point, I'm pretty sure this is a advetisement plot from the fan game creators. No one is dumb enough to make a nintendo fan game in 2021 afterall the takedowns.


----------



## Reploid (Aug 29, 2021)

If somebody ever says nins are not shitheads link them to this thread.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".



Says the guy on a VERY predominantly Nintendo web site. I would put money on it that you now own, and have owned in the past, both Nintendo  games and Nintendo consoles/handhelds... all the while you had stopped supporting them. And guess what? It's copyright, *their* right!!


----------



## 64bitmodels (Aug 29, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Says the guy on a VERY predominantly Nintendo web site. I would put money on it that you now own, and have owned in the past, both Nintendo  games and Nintendo consoles/handhelds... all the while you had stopped supporting them. And guess what? It's copyright, *their* right!!


"hurr, you can't criticize nintendo if you own their games and products"
how the fuck does that make any esnse 
just cuz it's legally right doesnt make it morally right... kind of like how it's legally OK for dipshit record companies to take down YT videos because they used 2 seconds of one of their songs, but not actually morally OK because that shit fucking sucks. morality over legality


----------



## K3N1 (Aug 29, 2021)

WiiMiiSwitch said:


> You know these fan games promote you Nintendo right?
> You and your lawyers need to learn that you'd be nothing without the fans


Lol Nintendo needing promotion while millions are willing to throw $60 at them with any game having the word Pokemon on it.


----------



## MrHuu (Aug 29, 2021)

64bitmodels said:


> "hurr, you can't criticize nintendo if you own their games and products"
> how the fuck does that make any esnse
> just cuz it's legally right doesnt make it morally right... kind of like how it's legally OK for dipshit record companies to take down YT videos because they used 2 seconds of one of their songs, but not actually morally OK because that shit fucking sucks. morality over legality



But it is morally right to take a company's ip which they're still working on, take the assets and create your own game.
Sorry, but i still haven't read any valid argument on why Nintendo should allow this.

They could have easily changed a few pixels and gave it an other name. Than there would be no issue, there's no copyright on how a generic character moves.


----------



## 64bitmodels (Aug 29, 2021)

MrHuu said:


> But it is morally right to take a company's ip which they're still working on, take the assets and create your own game.
> Sorry, but i still haven't read any valid argument on why Nintendo should allow this.
> 
> They could have easily changed a few pixels and gave it an other name. Than there would be no issue, there's no copyright on how a generic character moves.


If you're not selling it then there's really no reason to strike them down.
i can understand if prime 2d was put on steam for like 25 dollars or shit but its literally a free fangame
it poses no threat to nintendo whatsoever.
there's no reason for them to strike it down


----------



## MrHuu (Aug 29, 2021)

64bitmodels said:


> If you're not selling it then there's really no reason to strike them down.
> i can understand if prime 2d was put on steam for like 25 dollars or shit but its literally a free fangame
> it poses no threat to nintendo whatsoever.
> there's no reason for them to strike it down



It does kind of pose a threat, given their own Metroid game is almost ready for release.
Having a free rip-off metroid game released next to it, may affect sales believe it or not.

Does a fan game HAS to use copyrighted assets?
Or would it be fun enough if it plays in a similar fashion with similar graphics?
A metroid inspired game would have a much brighter future.


----------



## smf (Aug 29, 2021)

_while also ironically occurring during the same week as Sonic Amateur Games Expo, in which SEGA actively encourages fans to create fan-made romhacks and even full games based on their properties._

Do you have anything that says that SEGA are involved with it?


----------



## Boydy86 (Aug 29, 2021)

Just had a look at this game on the tube, do Nintendo honestly think people will pay for this???

I think the problem as Nintendo sees fit, may be that the product could be confused as property created by Nintendo, which could deal significant reputation damage.


----------



## chrisrlink (Aug 29, 2021)

i thought i read on eff's site that use of say Sonic the hedgehog does not delude the CR holders grasp on their IP (I will update this post with the source if i can find it again)


----------



## linkenski (Aug 29, 2021)

Am I the only one who is happy to see corporations prevail? Fuck the fan-made remake!


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 29, 2021)

64bitmodels said:


> "hurr, you can't criticize nintendo if you own their games and products"
> how the fuck does that make any esnse
> just cuz it's legally right doesnt make it morally right... kind of like how it's legally OK for dipshit record companies to take down YT videos because they used 2 seconds of one of their songs, but not actually morally OK because that shit fucking sucks. morality over legality



Ummm. What fucking planet do you live on where morality rules over legality? And as far as the other shit, I never said a person can't criticize Nintendo. You made up a completely fake quote out of thin air. Clap clap. The thing is, they came on a predominantly Nintendo website and talked shit about Nintendo fans, called them derogatory names, and made bullshit claims about "I stopped supporting them years ago". That's what the issue is. Wasn't about not being able to criticize if you own their products. That's just stupid and you knew it before you went on with your tripe-fest.


----------



## k7ra (Aug 29, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


It's copyright, they're right!!


----------



## WiiMiiSwitch (Aug 29, 2021)

kenenthk said:


> Lol Nintendo needing promotion while millions are willing to throw $60 at them with any game having the word Pokemon on it.


True, some people are crazy and just buy whatever


----------



## Darksabre72 (Aug 29, 2021)

DKB said:


> Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.


i feel like people publish their fan games at the wrong time (especially when a company is finally making a game around that ip)


----------



## smf (Aug 29, 2021)

Boydy86 said:


> do Nintendo honestly think people will pay for this???



That isn't really relevant, plus I don't know if they would make money out of any adverts on any sites it's hosted for example.

Changing the name of the game and the design of the main character (and any other copied artwork etc) should be enough.


----------



## bobmcjr (Aug 29, 2021)

leon315 said:


> hey, if the project is nearly 100% finished, they can be still "accidentally" leaked, as far as Nintondo won't able to prove it was mod devs to upload it.


Eh, they'd have to be pretty careful, probably would want to wait a while.

Hot take: any Nintendo fan projects that have trailers/other marketing before release aren't looking to release a game. They're fishing for job offers and sympathy after the inevitable DMCA.


----------



## MrHuu (Aug 29, 2021)

smf said:


> _while also ironically occurring during the same week as Sonic Amateur Games Expo, in which SEGA actively encourages fans to create fan-made romhacks and even full games based on their properties._
> 
> Do you have anything that says that SEGA are involved with it?



I'm actually wondering this myself. Haven't found any mention of this expo created by fans on any official SEGA channel.

@Chary Where did you find SEGA actually actively supporting this expo? In which way are they involved or encouraging this?


----------



## Exidous (Aug 29, 2021)

Shalashaska98 said:


> While I support fan games, Nintendo is right, the promotion they get from fan games can't be compared with their losses.


I think this is probably wrong. But as other people already pointed out in this thread, the way trademark law works they have to protect their brands. Existing fan games might be net positives for Nintendo's sales (what little they cannibalize is exceeded by the additional sales they promote), but if they lose the trademark they could be fighting clones, which are the inverse - they cannibalize much more than they promote sales.

Licensing fan games would obviate the trademark issue, but Nintendo has always been insular and conservative when it comes to their IP. It would be a big change.


----------



## Boydy86 (Aug 29, 2021)

smf said:


> That isn't really relevant, plus I don't know if they would make money out of any adverts on any sites it's hosted for example.
> 
> Changing the name of the game and the design of the main character (and any other copied artwork etc) should be enough.


Nintendo probably being charitable if you think about.  The Takedown will force devs to change sprites/character models etc to remove IP before release.  If Nintendo wanted to be nasty, they could wait a while, assess damages, then get their lawyers to sue/fine ruin life's..


----------



## DrPerkeleeee (Aug 29, 2021)

Nintendo is a unfriendly dipshit company. People should stop buying their stuff. Seriously...


----------



## Corpus99x (Aug 29, 2021)

DKB said:


> Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.



Sad truth. With the emergence of games on blockchain, hoping that fan-made games can somehow be made on there but idk if that will still be subject to legal issues


----------



## Jacobh (Aug 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> You specifically wouldn't be able to trademark it *because* both the words "Metroid" and "Castlevania" are trademarked. What it refers to is somewhat immaterial, a trademarked name can refer to a range of products. Not that it really matters, of course.



A trademark can refer to a set of related products from a single company. Metroid and Castlevania are owned by different companies and are different brands / products. 

The reason Metroidvania couldn’t be trademarked is it’s a generic term for a genre of games.  The term wouldn’t exist without the games, but if those games didn’t exit it still wouldn’t be granted a trademark just like no one could trademark “first person shooter” or “graphic adventure”.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 29, 2021)

Jacobh said:


> A trademark can refer to a set of related products from a single company. Metroid and Castlevania are owned by different companies and are different brands / products.
> 
> The reason Metroidvania couldn’t be trademarked is it’s a generic term for a genre of games.  The term wouldn’t exist without the games, but if those games didn’t exit it still wouldn’t be granted a trademark just like no one could trademark “first person shooter” or “graphic adventure”.


Metroidvania is not a "genetic term", like first person shooter - it does refer to a genre, by way of referring to two specific products. If you think this is not the case, try to trademark an "Applephone", see where that gets ya. It's just a genetic description of a phone that kind of looks like one made by Apple, I'm sure it'll work.


----------



## daemonspudguy (Aug 29, 2021)

Legally speaking, Nintendo has all the right in the world to kill this project. I still heavily disagree with it but the fan project does infringe on their copyrights.


----------



## smf (Aug 29, 2021)

Boydy86 said:


> Nintendo probably being charitable if you think about.



I doubt that was their intention.



Corpus99x said:


> Sad truth. With the emergence of games on blockchain, hoping that fan-made games can somehow be made on there but idk if that will still be subject to legal issues



Yes. If they identify who you are then they can keep going after you for damages as you've purposefully made sure it's impossible to comply with any court order.

If you remove it when they ask then they seem quite reasonable.


----------



## Jonna (Aug 29, 2021)

There are so many people on here with the wrong mentality. I and many friends I've known have made many Nintendo fangames. You have to be creative with them. Don't just make a 2D version of an official game, or an upgraded version, or a sequel to an official game. Actually do something interesting and put the characters of an IP into a situation that would be way different. We never had problems with Nintendo when we did that.


----------



## the_randomizer (Aug 29, 2021)

Not surprised seeing all the sycophants


----------



## tabzer (Aug 30, 2021)

Boydy86 said:


> Nintendo probably being charitable if you think about.  The Takedown will force devs to change sprites/character models etc to remove IP before release.  If Nintendo wanted to be nasty, they could wait a while, assess damages, then get their lawyers to sue/fine ruin life's..



They just wanted to subtly break the news to the dev that they will never ever, ever, be good enough for them without crushing theirsoul.


----------



## DoubleDate (Aug 30, 2021)

It's funny how people feel entitled that they should use Nintendo IP's. If Nintendo doesn't allow it they are Draconian and  giving kind of hateful comments. Nintendo has every right to defend their IP's ,they created it. Its like you own a car and then people from the street get in your car and take it away without your permission. Would you take it lightly or would you do anything to get your car back? If Nintendo gets too lenient with projects like this, lots of people will be creating all kind of games from all of Nintendo IP's, meaning that it breaks the copyright issues layed out by Nintendo. Since everyone will be doing it, it could be problematic for Nintendo to stop people from creating unauthorized games without Nintendo's permission. Its all about legallity.

Why dont people try to make a fan made Final Fantasy games? Or a Castlevania one? You will get the same result: You will be NOT authorized to create a dedicated fan game using those IP's.

People go after Nintendo because they see them as a "Kid friendly" company and due to having such an image people expect Nintendo to keep quiet and allowing anyone to do whatever they want with their characters.

If you want to do a dedicated game containing Nintendo characters, you need to become a certified developer. Have your own game portofolio, aaaand if Nintendo likes what you are doing you might be lucky that they lend their characters to your company. One big example is Cadence of Hyrule. They did it the right way and got official permission to use characters from the Legend of Zelda games.


----------



## gudenau (Aug 30, 2021)

When will people learn that Nintendo does this?


----------



## MetoMeto (Aug 30, 2021)

DKB said:


> Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.


This did nothing, only officially it did.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Anyways.......
I don't see why is Nintendo bothered.
Its just a bunch of people having fun and sharing it with others online, for no profit whatsoever.

If nothing, they have free promotion of Metroid.


Its like me promoting Coca-Cola on my t-shirt and coca-cola comes at me and sue me
for giving them free publicity.

Another explanation is they are afraid a fan made game will be better than official (it will),
but so what?!

I fucking bought a switch for this one game, Metroid Dread, and preordered it!
I dont see how in any way shape or form they need to and have right to shut down someones fun time project.

I used to be a nintendo fan, now i feel sick of them.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DoubleDate said:


> It's funny how people feel entitled that they should use Nintendo IP's. If Nintendo doesn't allow it they are Draconian and  giving kind of hateful comments. Nintendo has every right to defend their IP's ,they created it. Its like you own a car and then people from the street get in your car and take it away without your permission. Would you take it lightly or would you do anything to get your car back? If Nintendo gets too lenient with projects like this, lots of people will be creating all kind of games from all of Nintendo IP's, meaning that it breaks the copyright issues layed out by Nintendo. Since everyone will be doing it, it could be problematic for Nintendo to stop people from creating unauthorized games without Nintendo's permission. Its all about legallity.
> 
> Why dont people try to make a fan made Final Fantasy games? Or a Castlevania one? You will get the same result: You will be NOT authorized to create a dedicated fan game using those IP's.
> 
> ...


Its not in comercial purposes, its for fun.
This is not a minority report where you sue and arest people for doing nothing. Its literally few people having fun and promoting nintendo.
If nothing its a bad PR for them.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



daemonspudguy said:


> Legally speaking, Nintendo has all the right in the world to kill this project. I still heavily disagree with it but the fan project does infringe on their copyrights.


so does a free publicity right?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

All you "legal" people talk bullshit, but whatever.
Laws are made by people so they arent perfect, and frankly some are stupid. Thats it.


----------



## DoubleDate (Aug 30, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> This did nothing, only officially it did.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



It may be nothing for you, but at the end of the day its their property like it or not. You want people to do whatever they want with their IP, something that Nintendo build with years. Why dont people just create their own game? 

As i stated before, let someone try to create a full fan made game of Castlevania and let see what happens. People are commenting like they own Nintendo and have all the right to do whatever they want with their characters. All Nintendo characters are copyrighted IP's, meaning to use you need to ask for a license.

If that what the case, that we do whatever what we want with copyrighted material, then im going to copy entirely and sing a song from Ariana Grande for "Fun" and post it on Youtube. Im quite sure i will also be asked to take the song down. That is the thing with all the copyright issues.


----------



## DoubleDate (Aug 30, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> This did nothing, only officially it did.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



It may be nothing for you, but at the end of the day its their property like it or not. You want people to do whatever they want with their IP, something that Nintendo build with years. Why dont people just create their own game? 

As i stated before, let someone try to create a full fan made game of Castlevania and let see what happens. People are commenting like they own Nintendo and have all the right to do whatever they want with their characters. All Nintendo characters are copyrighted IP's, meaning to use you need to ask for a license.

If that what the case, that we do whatever what we want with copyrighted material, then im going to copy entirely and sing a song from Ariana Grande for "Fun" and post it on Youtube. Im quite sure i will also be asked to take the song down. That is the thing with all the copyright issues.


----------



## air2004 (Aug 30, 2021)

Arras said:


> Sure it sucks, but this game is different enough from Prime in the first place that they can replace Metroid characters/assets and turn it into an original game with relatively minimal loss of work. There's definitely stuff to be done here besides throwing up their hands and quitting.



They could be using ninty's legal prowess against them. By that I mean they had to know that ninty would shut this project down... ninty's lawyers publicize this lawsuit because they want go stop others from doing this sort of thing in the future but little does ninty realize that all creator has to do is make a few modifications to make it all legal.

It's a win-win.


----------



## granville (Aug 30, 2021)

Obligatory PSA about fan works based on Nintendo (and a lot of other companies) IP's-



Very sad as this looked legitimately great. But you could see it coming from a mile away. I'm against this takedown and do support the fangame. But the situation with AM2R (and a lot of other similar cases) made it clear that it's not safe to announce a Nintendo fan remake until it's pretty much already fully completed and released. This looked promising enough that I hope it can and will be reskinned.

I'm surprised AM2R survived to its release, given that its development was well known and reported on for years. Perhaps Nintendo legit didn't know about it, or assumed it was vaporware that would never be finished. They've always been hostile towards fan remakes, but I think AM2R may have prompted them to more actively search for and take out fan projects than they used to.


----------



## daemonspudguy (Aug 30, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> Its not in comercial purposes, its for fun.
> This is not a minority report where you sue and arest people for doing nothing. Its literally few people having fun and promoting nintendo.
> If nothing its a bad PR for them.


That is not how copyright law works.


----------



## EvilJagaGenius (Aug 30, 2021)

DoubleDate said:


> Why dont people try to make a fan made Final Fantasy games? Or a Castlevania one? You will get the same result: You will be NOT authorized to create a dedicated fan game using those IP's.



Here you go: https://www.moddb.com/mods/castlevania-simons-destiny

As for Final Fantasy, I suppose there's RPG Maker for that.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 30, 2021)

granville said:


> I'm surprised AM2R survived to its release, given that its development was well known and reported on for years. Perhaps Nintendo legit didn't know about it, or assumed it was vaporware that would never be finished.



I'm equally surprised it took so long for a new Metroid game to come out.   Do you think the timing is coincidental?

Or.

It could be a cost effective form of marketing.  It generates hype and pining over the metroid franchise.  It instills a feeling of "missing out on metroid", and that will translate into greater sales.

There is no such thing as too much money.  Lol.

Great video btw.  Everybody should have watched it 6 years ago and learned about shutting the fuck up.


----------



## The Real Jdbye (Aug 30, 2021)

This is why you need to keep fan projects secret until the game is "finished" so that even if it gets shut down, people will still have a version playable from start to finish and the effort isn't wasted. It sucks, but this was guaranteed to happen, it happens every single time. I'm sure the team behind it saw it coming too.


----------



## Wickedchew (Aug 30, 2021)

why cant nintendo love how enthusiast and creativity of these guys..
like what capcom did to Megaman x Streetfighter


i remember when there is no mario maker before..there was this team developing mario where you can create levels and play with friends..
Nintendo Ban them..after a year or so..nintendo announce Mario Maker


----------



## tabzer (Aug 30, 2021)

Wickedchew said:


> why cant nintendo love how enthusiast and creativity of these guys..



They probably do. lol.


----------



## TigerPuffs (Aug 30, 2021)

This is too bad. All fan creations really does is promote sales of the original material. It's like authors who tank fanfiction written in their universes. But it's their property, so I guess they can shoot themselves in the foot if they want to.


----------



## MetoMeto (Aug 30, 2021)

daemonspudguy said:


> That is not how copyright law works.


thats not whats important here.


----------



## MochaMilk (Aug 30, 2021)

I couldn't live with myself knowing that I've demolished someone's passion project that was a love letter to my company, showing their support and endearment towards one of my franchises. 
Knowing that I've stomped someone's will to keep expressing their creativity using a media that adore. 
Knowing that someone learned how to program a game and spent countless hours on a project just to show their dedication.
How do the Nintendo higherups fucking sleep at night?


----------



## smf (Aug 30, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> If nothing, they have free promotion of Metroid.



Without their consent.



MetoMeto said:


> Its like me promoting Coca-Cola on my t-shirt and coca-cola comes at me and sue me
> for giving them free publicity.



I'm assuming that metroid prime 2d was going to be distributed.

So it would be like you making millions of t coca cola t-shirts and giving them away but also putting your company name on the t-shirt as well. Which would be trading on the consumers good will of coca cola in a massive trademark violation.



MetoMeto said:


> I dont see how in any way shape or form they need to and have right to shut down someones fun time project.



It's all fun and games until it's someone who violates your rights.

If Nintendo allow people to use the metroid trademark, then it could cause Nintendo significant harm

https://www.inta.org/fact-sheets/trademark-dilution-intended-for-a-non-legal-audience/



MetoMeto said:


> Laws are made by people so they arent perfect, and frankly some are stupid. Thats it.



Some are, this isn't.



MochaMilk said:


> I couldn't live with myself knowing that I've demolished someone's passion project that was a love letter to my company, showing their support and endearment towards one of my franchises.
> Knowing that I've stomped someone's will to keep expressing their creativity using a media that adore.
> Knowing that someone learned how to program a game and spent countless hours on a project just to show their dedication.
> How do the Nintendo higherups fucking sleep at night?



They probably sleep well at night because they don't listen to this kind of gas lighting. You can turn off the drama as they aren't reading


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 30, 2021)

It's interesting to read some of the responses to this situation considering it's on a mod-centric gaming forum.

I think Nintendo will do alright regardless, but there's more corporate support here than I would've expected.


----------



## MrHuu (Aug 30, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> It's interesting to read some of the responses to this situation considering it's on a mod-centric gaming forum.
> 
> I think Nintendo will do alright regardless, but there's more corporate support here than I would've expected.



There are a lot of reasons on why to modify hard or software.
A lot of reasons don't involve trademark / copyright violation.

Some think it's fine, others don't. Nintendo apparently doesn't, and i can't blame them.

But hey, we all appreciate a good gaming experience, I believe that's why we're here. i think.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 30, 2021)

MrHuu said:


> There are a lot of reasons on why to modify hard or software.
> A lot of reasons don't involve trademark / copyright violation.


No but I think they pretty much all violate the TOS, which sort of goes against the 'Nintendo is right' mantra.


----------



## smf (Aug 30, 2021)

MrHuu said:


> Some think it's fine, others don't. Nintendo apparently doesn't, and i can't blame them.



It's not a black/white thing either, some people think downloading every nintendo game is fine but think it's bad if someone is making money ouf of piracy. Some people don't even care about that.

It's like breaking any law, some people will steal things and then accept punishment when they are caught by the police and some will argue that it's not fair.

You have to be pretty naive to think you can make something with someone elses copyright property and not get some kind of takedown.

"We're really special because we're the first to think of making a metroid 2d fan game. "

"No, you're the first to think you could get away with it."



subcon959 said:


> No but I think they pretty much all violate the TOS, which sort of goes against the 'Nintendo is right' mantra.



You can steal stuff but think poorly of the people who get caught & think it's right they are punished.

It's not black and white, you're not part of a gang where everyone has sworn a blood oath to whatever your opinion is.


----------



## asiekierka (Aug 30, 2021)

DoubleDate said:


> Since everyone will be doing it, it could be problematic for Nintendo to stop people from creating unauthorized games without Nintendo's permission. Its all about legallity.



No. It's about Nintendo's business model: their profit relies on them being the only company you can go to if you want some Mario, or some Zelda, or some Pokemon.



> Why dont people try to make a fan made Final Fantasy games? Or a Castlevania one? You will get the same result: You will be NOT authorized to create a dedicated fan game using those IP's.



Why not try to create a fan made Sonic the Hedgehog, or Touhou game instead? Oh, right. Those don't fit your argument. These publishers celebrate their fandoms' creative output. Sure, they set boundaries and rules - but they give their fans ways to express their creativity within that framework. (SEGA even has an official platform for uploading ROM hacks! That's very cool, and not talked about anywhere near often enough.) While you can make the counter-argument that this is because said fandoms rely on fanwork for increased profit (Sonic's official games have a very mixed track record, and Touhou's fandom growth pretty much lives off of secondary creations) - it is easy to show that there are "more lenient" and "less lenient" rightsholders in the current gaming industry.

Nintendo is well within their _right_ to take down unauthorized fan games. That is absolutely undeniable, within the current status quo. However, that doesn't mean people cannot _criticize_ Nintendo for their actions - especially if numerous publishers and franchises exist which take a much more lenient stance.

I do personally think that people who want to donate their free labor and time to a franchise are better off just giving up on Nintendo, period. However, I can't make that decision for them.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 30, 2021)

smf said:


> It's not black and white, you're not part of a gang where everyone has sworn a blood oath to whatever your opinion is.


Wait, are you saying I cut my palm for no reason?


----------



## Boydy86 (Aug 30, 2021)

MochaMilk said:


> I couldn't live with myself knowing that I've demolished someone's passion project that was a love letter to my company, showing their support and endearment towards one of my franchises.
> Knowing that I've stomped someone's will to keep expressing their creativity using a media that adore.
> Knowing that someone learned how to program a game and spent countless hours on a project just to show their dedication.
> How do the Nintendo higherups fucking sleep at night?


They don't sleep at night, they sleep at daytime, hanging upside down in a dark room.


----------



## smf (Aug 30, 2021)

asiekierka said:


> SEGA even has an official platform for uploading ROM hacks!



Where is this?



asiekierka said:


> Nintendo is well within their _right_ to take down unauthorized fan games. That is absolutely undeniable, within the current status quo. However, that doesn't mean people cannot _criticize_ Nintendo for their actions - especially if numerous publishers and franchises exist which take a much more lenient stance.



You can ask nicely & they can say yes or no, but criticizing someone for exercising their legal rights is not helpful to the outcome you want and it comes across as entitlement.


----------



## asiekierka (Aug 30, 2021)

smf said:


> Where is this?



On Steam. Their Genesis/Mega Drive emulator has Steam Workshop integration for every game available within it on Steam.

Their social media manager also clarified on Twitter recently that non-profit Sonic fan games are, in the general case, absolutely acceptable - see https://twitter.com/KatieChrz/status/1391900579966844930.



> You can ask nicely & they can say no, but criticizing someone for exercising their legal rights is not helpful.



Companies are often criticized for doing things which the people don't like - be it aggresive tax optimization, negatively affecting the environment, or underpaying and mistreating their employees. While nowhere near as severe, it's fair to criticize Nintendo for their practices regarding IP management - especially since you can point to other large publishers who take a different approach.

As said above, I do think it's more productive to just not partake in Nintendo fangames than to partake in Nintendo fangames and then criticize Nintendo for taking them down - I think their stance is pretty well-known by now. There's plenty of publishers and franchises who will gladly welcome your free labor instead. Alternatively, you can do what Freedom Planet, Them's Fighting Herds and many other game developers did, and turn a fangame into an original IP.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Aug 30, 2021)

asiekierka said:


> Companies are often criticized for doing things which the people don't lik


there's doing things what fans don't like and than there's nintendo absolutely shitting all over their fans


----------



## smf (Aug 30, 2021)

asiekierka said:


> Their social media manager also clarified on Twitter recently that non-profit Sonic fan games are, in the general case, absolutely acceptable - see https://twitter.com/KatieChrz/status/1391900579966844930.



_So long as no profit is involved, there is usually* no issue with y'all using our blue boy to hone your art and dev skills. *((for legal reasons I can't promise all content is ok))_

Basically they can't be bothered, but will if they change their mind.

I'm not sure their social media manager should be giving any kind of legal advice though.



asiekierka said:


> Companies are often criticized for doing things which the people don't like - be it aggresive tax optimization, negatively affecting the environment, or underpaying and mistreating their employees. While nowhere near as severe, it's fair to criticize Nintendo for their practices regarding IP management - especially since you can point to other large publishers who take a different approach.



I agree that complaining that they won't let you steal their stuff is different to them not paying tax or polluting the environment, your first step in the later is to not support them financially.

I'm not sure that they would be worried about you boycotting them, when you want to play free games that weren't made by them.

If nintendo allowed metroid branded games there would be so many of them that your reaction to prime 2d would be "not another bloody metroid game, I'm sick of metroid games"


----------



## asiekierka (Aug 30, 2021)

smf said:


> _So long as no profit is involved, there is usually* no issue with y'all using our blue boy to hone your art and dev skills. *((for legal reasons I can't promise all content is ok))_
> 
> Basically they can't be bothered, but will if they change their mind.



It's more a legal cover against something they might actually need to take a stance on - for instance, a game considered pornographic or offensive which extensively utilizes Sonic property. Generally, companies which give some kind of statement on fanwork permission will usually have a cover of this kind - this is, in my opinion, acceptable in the current status quo.

You can still see the difference with the fact Sonic fans have a yearly expo celebrating their fangames, whereas in the Nintendo world this would probably serve as a first-come-first-served list of games to take down.



> I agree that complaining that they won't let you steal their stuff is different to them not paying tax or polluting the environment, your first step in the later is to not support them financially.
> 
> I'm not sure that they would be worried about you boycotting them, when you want to play free games that weren't made by them.



I'd make the argument that most people who play Nintendo fangames also partake in official Nintendo games (given the forum, however, I can't really say for sure how many actually _pay _for the official games, unfortunately). I'd also make the argument that Nintendo franchises rely, to some extent, on continued awareness and nostalgia - be it retro YouTubers painting the image of a Nintendo-centric game childhood, parents buying their kids a Mario game as they look back fondly on their own SNES, etc.



> If nintendo allowed metroid branded games there would be so many of them that your reaction to prime 2d would be "not another bloody metroid game, I'm sick of metroid games"



I don't think people refused to buy Sonic Mania because of all the dozens of Sonic ROM hacks that existed.


----------



## Valkri599 (Aug 30, 2021)

Always sucks to see these get blasted. I get why they do but creativity going down the drain is never fun to see.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 30, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> No but I think they pretty much all violate the TOS, which sort of goes against the 'Nintendo is right' mantra.




I mean, there are surprisingly few people who aren't surprised and not getting upset over the expected outcome.  There are smart ways to circumvent this situation.  Have you heard about shutting the fuck up?

I mean, I do hope that someone can get an amazing IP defiling project that does better than the original.  That would be actual art.  However, I don't miss something that never existed.


----------



## MochaMilk (Aug 30, 2021)

smf said:


> Where is this?
> 
> 
> 
> You can ask nicely & they can say yes or no, but criticizing someone for exercising their legal rights is not helpful to the outcome you want and it comes across as entitlement.


The thing is though, as far as I can understand, these creators are in their full legal right to create these fan games. They're non profit, thus being under fair use. Nintendo threatens and pushes that this is illegal, though it isn't. They've always been deceitful about piracy, modding and fan creation. So yes, they're in their full legal right to be able to take these games down, but their spoken motivation for doing so is false and unjust. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I heard this was the case.


----------



## MadMakuFuuma (Aug 30, 2021)

smf said:


> Where is this?
> .


steam, mega drive/genesis roms. it exists, and you can check anytime


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 30, 2021)

MochaMilk said:


> The thing is though, as far as I can understand, these creators are in their full legal right to create these fan games. They're non profit, thus being under fair use. Nintendo threatens and pushes that this is illegal, though it isn't. They've always been deceitful about piracy, modding and fan creation. So yes, they're in their full legal right to be able to take these games down, but their spoken motivation for doing so is false and unjust. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I heard this was the case.


I think fair use is supposed to apply to things like journalistic work such as including images or video in reviews.


----------



## kisamesama (Aug 30, 2021)

Nintendo has been full of disrespect and selling bs (remake after remake at astonishing prices) to fans for the last 3-4 years and I am thinking ditching all nintendo related stuff soon.


----------



## HideoKojima (Aug 30, 2021)

Exidous said:


> I think this is probably wrong. But as other people already pointed out in this thread, the way trademark law works they have to protect their brands. Existing fan games might be net positives for Nintendo's sales (what little they cannibalize is exceeded by the additional sales they promote), but if they lose the trademark they could be fighting clones, which are the inverse - they cannibalize much more than they promote sales.
> 
> Licensing fan games would obviate the trademark issue, but Nintendo has always been insular and conservative when it comes to their IP. It would be a big change.


I suggest you take a look at the P&L per game and you'll get what I'm talking about


----------



## chrisrlink (Aug 30, 2021)

they're killing dreams plain and simple Nintendo's dev's are not immortal they will perish like all humans do, pushing away would be devs will thin out the field eventually,after one c&d some talented people may just give up all together


----------



## Exidous (Aug 30, 2021)

Shalashaska98 said:


> I suggest you take a look at the P&L per game and you'll get what I'm talking about


The rights holder can only theorize about the rate to which fan games result in cannibalization. And they have every incentive to inflate that number for purpose of beefing up legal threats to accused infringers for lost sales claims.

Similarly, of course, advocates here can only theorize about the rate to which fan games result in net positive sales for the rights holder.


----------



## Jacobh (Aug 30, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I think Nintendo will do alright regardless, but there's more corporate support here than I would've expected.



Explaining why a company is doing something, doesn't mean that you agree with it.  I'm not personally a fan of Nintendo's actions, but given the context it's completely understandable.  Their lawyers are looking at this as part of a long-term comprehensive strategy to protect their legal rights, not as a one-off decision based on the quality of this fan-made game or its creator's intent.  Once this started getting publicized on major gaming websites it does weaken their ability to protect their IP if they didn't do anything about it.  How much is debatable, but their overall strategy is based on being aggressive.  

SEGA has taken a different approach in terms of a legal strategy that does leave them more open in terms of protecting their IP long term.  Culturally, they seem like they have always been a different company than Nintendo and they may have decided this was a better approach for them.  I think it's hard to say that Nintendo's strategy is bad for business given the relative size / profitability of the two companies.  It may be a bad decision for other reasons.



MochaMilk said:


> The thing is though, as far as I can understand, these creators are in their full legal right to create these fan games. They're non profit, thus being under fair use. Nintendo threatens and pushes that this is illegal, though it isn't. They've always been deceitful about piracy, modding and fan creation. So yes, they're in their full legal right to be able to take these games down, but their spoken motivation for doing so is false and unjust. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I heard this was the case.



Just because something is non-profit does not automatically make it fair-use (although most fair use is non-profit).   You can see the factors considered here: https://copyright.columbia.edu/basics/fair-use.html.   Since they recreating the entire game and intending to distribute it would make it hard to pass a fair use test in the court of law.  While I'm sure there are other factors in why they aren't fighting this, I'm sure the author's know they would be unlikely to win if this went to court.  Under current IP law, this is one of the stronger cases Nintendo has for issuing a take-down (whether you think the law is good or bad).


----------



## SDA (Aug 30, 2021)

Oh man, here comes Nintendo. AGAIN.


----------



## ChibiMofo (Aug 31, 2021)

I just cannot believe people are stupid enough to develop content that clearly violates the intellectual property rights of others. What the hell are they teaching you kids these days in school? Do you really believe the Internet is the Wild West and you can do whatever you want?


----------



## HideoKojima (Aug 31, 2021)

Exidous said:


> The rights holder can only theorize about the rate to which fan games result in cannibalization. And they have every incentive to inflate that number for purpose of beefing up legal threats to accused infringers for lost sales claims.
> 
> Similarly, of course, advocates here can only theorize about the rate to which fan games result in net positive sales for the rights holder.


Cannibalization of Metroid? I think the game is famous enough and doesn't need a fan made game to make it more famous. Plus it's Ninty after all their brand equity is so important that even if they release a random game it will sell, plus by using targeted marketing spend they can target the right audience to meet the intended figures something that a fan game can't achieve.


----------



## Exidous (Aug 31, 2021)

ChibiMofo said:


> I just cannot believe people are stupid enough to develop content that clearly violates the intellectual property rights of others. What the hell are they teaching you kids these days in school? Do you really believe the Internet is the Wild West and you can do whatever you want?


Yes. As a practical matter, we the denizens of the Internet can do whatever we want as pertains to copyright infringement, given the architecture of the Internet.

Actually holding on to money made from infringement is impractical, but any conceivable copyright law is going to be ineffectual in terms of halting _file operations_. There's a ridiculous anti-circumvention regime built into the DMCA, as if screaming at people: "you aren't allowed to try" prevents trivially simple file operations. Consider instead the absurdity of asserting an "intellectual property right" which purports to restrict the most trivial operations of every computer on the planet.

God bless the architects of the free and open Internet.

EDIT:



Shalashaska98 said:


> Cannibalization of Metroid? I think the game is famous enough and doesn't need a fan made game to make it more famous.


For someone who led with P&L cites, you went qualitative fast.

More fame is more sales, so there obviously is some net sales positive for the universe of Metroid games in the hypothetical of a released fan game. The claim I'm disputing is about which effect is bigger: net Nintendo sales increase from additional promotion/fame from the existence of a fan game, versus cannibalization due to that same game.

Cannibalization is when someone who would have bought a licensed Metroid game does not because of the availability of the non-licensed fan game.

Other edit: An inherent assertion I'm making is that cannibalization is the only legitimate loss that a rights holder could attribute to the existence of a non-licensed copy. It has to be a sale that would have happened, not just slapping a $60 price sticker assumption on some college kid's fan work and seeking treble damages for every copy (which is the claim they make in such lawsuits, and I'm guessing how they value their "L" claim).


----------



## Phaanox (Aug 31, 2021)

Fan made Nintendo projects should be made with non Nintendo IP, assets, music, etc. 

And someone unknown release a free Nintendo MOD for that project. *wink, wink*


----------



## smf (Sep 1, 2021)

MochaMilk said:


> The thing is though, as far as I can understand, these creators are in their full legal right to create these fan games. They're non profit, thus being under fair use.



I think you understand wrong. Profit is not a get out of free jail card for copyright/trademark violation.

Besides, I have no idea if they make money out of page clicks to their web site etc either.



Exidous said:


> Other edit: An inherent assertion I'm making is that cannibalization is the only legitimate loss that a rights holder could attribute to the existence of a non-licensed copy. It has to be a sale that would have happened, not just slapping a $60 price sticker assumption on some college kid's fan work and seeking treble damages for every copy (which is the claim they make in such lawsuits, and I'm guessing how they value their "L" claim).



It's not the only loss, reputational damage is another loss. Someone who has no idea that metroid prime 2d isn't a nintendo product could see it. The way to solve that is to not use any nintendo trademark or copyright design. If they don't want to bother making a game that isn't violating trademark/copyright, then they are clearly trading on nintendo's good will without paying for it. That good will also has a $ value.

Nintendo choose what platforms their games are available on, that decision also has a $ value.


----------



## Boydy86 (Sep 1, 2021)

Phanox said:


> Fan made Nintendo projects should be made with non Nintendo IP, assets, music, etc.
> 
> And someone unknown release a free Nintendo MOD for that project. *wink, wink*


Fan made Nintendo projects should have no reference to Nintendo?


----------



## adamsef (Sep 1, 2021)

I’m so happy I have Pirated  the shit out of every Nintendo I’ve ever owned!!
I hate them as a company


----------



## Exidous (Sep 1, 2021)

smf said:


> It's not the only loss, reputational damage is another loss. Someone who has no idea that metroid prime 2d isn't a nintendo product could see it.


That's only a (quantifiable) reputation loss if the non licensed game is bad/worse than the public expectation for a real Metroid game though. Those would be the sort of clones that I concede are net negatives in terms of Nintendo's income.



smf said:


> Nintendo choose what platforms their games are available on, that decision also has a $ value.


That's an interesting point. I agree there is a quantifiable value to the perception that Nintendo's games only appear on Nintendo's consoles. If there were enough Mintendo branded PC games, weakening that perception of exclusivity could reduce future Nintendo hardware sales.

But I think it would have to be more than a few Metroid games to become appreciable.


----------



## Mythical (Sep 1, 2021)

This is why I don't buy nintendo products anymore.
When they stop killing shit for no good reason I'll start buying again.
You could argue muh copyright, muh ip, they have incentive, etc...
But we all know there are many other better ways to deal with a game's modding community
 than to c & d


----------



## smf (Sep 1, 2021)

Exidous said:


> That's only a (quantifiable) reputation loss if the non licensed game is bad/worse than the public expectation for a real Metroid game though. Those would be the sort of clones that I concede are net negatives in terms of Nintendo's income.



The barrier is quite low in terms of courts for showing losses.



Exidous said:


> That's an interesting point. I agree there is a quantifiable value to the perception that Nintendo's games only appear on Nintendo's consoles.



I was thinking more if you skip buying a switch because you played through a home brew metroid, it might cause you to not buy another switch game.



Exidous said:


> But I think it would have to be more than a few Metroid games to become appreciable.



The courts are kinda on nitendo's side.


----------



## Tiger21820 (Sep 1, 2021)

I think that ALL websites regarding Nintendo derivative works should be in the deep web from now on!

And which Nintendo CEO is responsible for these take downs anyway!?

It's like this:

"Check out this fan game about Mario/Sonic that's in active development! It'll be awesome once it's complete!"

Sega: "Amazing! Hey, why don't you come work for us and use these assets in our upcoming games!"

Nintendo: *"GET ON THE F***ING GROUND NOW!!!!!!"*

Must I clarify?


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Sep 1, 2021)

no surprise. Nintendo does shitty thing. It's the same shit every day.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 1, 2021)

This is yet another unfortunate situation where I can see both sides in this situation. Nintendo does have the right, but, I mean, as long as the fan creator doesn't make even 1 cent using Nintendo's IP's for the fan games they make, it's kind of dumb to attack fans like this.


----------



## Exidous (Sep 2, 2021)

smf said:


> The courts are kinda on nitendo's side.


Oh, I'm not disputing that. I'm attacking the edifice of copyright law in the U.S. as ridiculous elsewhere in this thread.

The part of my argument you responded to isn't the part about that legal claim though, it's about the cost/benefit analysis for Nintendo when considering whether to permit/license/tolerate fan games. Whether the courts will assume every copy of some college kid's fan game that was ever copied should be $60x3 in damages doesn't matter if said college kid is judgment proof - they usually are.

My argument is that as a practical matter, Nintendo should be weighing the fame/goodwill/advertising benefits of (good) fan games against the actual sales cannibalization risk from such good fan games. They should not, rationally, be weighing that benefit against the contrived, ridiculous copyright judgment damages which are not fulfilled in probably 90%+ of claims Nintendo makes. It's in their interest to overprice such items in order to make such inflated claims that then don't get paid. There's an internal logic to it, but it can hardly be called "accurate loss pricing."


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## smf (Sep 2, 2021)

Exidous said:


> My argument is that as a practical matter, Nintendo should be weighing the fame/goodwill/advertising benefits of (good) fan games against the actual sales cannibalization risk from such good fan games



You can't prove those, in the same way that you say nintendo can't show a loss. You want your bread buttered on both sides.

Either the game is so insignificant that it doesn't hurt nintendo, or it's so significant it some how gives them some kind of benefit. It can't be both. And any benefit is subjective and could be seen as harming nintendo.

Not taking trademark violators on, could dilute their trademark.

If the game was any good then it will stand on it's own, it's getting free advertising by their actions and they should pay $$$ for that. Nintendo have a very good case & I think it's legally and morally correct.

If instead they want to make a metroid game and pass it around a handful of people underground, then sure they can do that & nintendo (along with the rest of the world) would never hear about it.


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## Boydy86 (Sep 2, 2021)

Will the game get released with IP removed?


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## Exidous (Sep 2, 2021)

smf said:


> You can't prove those, in the same way that you say nintendo can't show a loss.


You can't _control_ for them but it's ridiculous to think that Nintendo can't get a decent, non-contorted-by-legal-posturing estimate both of what they get in goodwill out of successful fan games in one of their franchises, and also what they lose in sales for first party titles via cannibalization owing to that same title.



smf said:


> You want your bread buttered on both sides.


I didn't attempt to quantify them. You're attacking the _concept_ of calculation.



smf said:


> Either the game is so insignificant that it doesn't hurt nintendo, or it's so significant it some how gives them some kind of benefit. It can't be both.


They're not mutually exclusive, but these two things are also not the distinction I'm making (significant/insignificant). 

If there is a bad fan game that cheapens the brand, it generates only negative goodwill, and any cannibalization is pure downside for Nintendo.

If there is a very good fan game that boosts the interest of fans in a largely-defunct Nintendo franchise (yknow, like 2d Metroid) that drops in a valley, years between first party releases, it's very plausible that the franchise goodwill generated by the fan game would increase Nintendo's first party Metroid game sales in excess of the rate of cannibalization owing to that game.

If there is a fantastic, awesome, leagues better than anything Nintendo ever made fan game, then it very well could be the other way around - more cannibalization than sales increase. 

The net profit effect for Nintendo is not a monotonic function of fan game significance.



smf said:


> And any benefit is subjective and could be seen as harming nintendo.


Perhaps the only nice thing about accounting is that it's an attempt to quantify and make objective such things...



smf said:


> Not taking trademark violators on, could dilute their trademark.


That's just an argument for licensing fan games, it doesn't bear on the business decision of whether to suppress one, let alone them all/entirely.



smf said:


> If the game was any good then it will stand on it's own, it's getting free advertising by their actions and they should pay $$$ for that. Nintendo have a very good case & I think it's legally and morally correct.


Ok? Did you ignore that part where I said I'm not talking about a court case?


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## thehawksfuckingdead7 (Sep 3, 2021)

Nintendo clearly loves ruining all the effort done by the devs and composers and artists.


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## Plazorn (Sep 4, 2021)

Nintendo always crushes peoples ideas, as do many other companies…


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## owoLinksu (Sep 4, 2021)

I've never understood why they shut them down when instead they could just support the endeavor and pay some small amount of money for the work then presto a lil nintendo spit shine on it release it for the console only.

like why just kill off a game that you could monopolize on, it's basically done and they'd just need to bring on the team maybe as temps to work with their guys to port it to the console, especially being a 2d game should be doable for professionals.


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## Hambrew (Sep 4, 2021)

Chary said:


> Team SCU had been working on and off Prime 2D since 2004, meaning it took a handful of months for lawyers to kill a fan game that had been in the making for well over a decade.​Source​​


​
Doesn't that make Prime 2D an even longer-going project than Black Mesa?


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## MetoMeto (Sep 4, 2021)

smf said:


> I'm assuming that metroid prime 2d was going to be distributed.
> So it would be like you making millions of t coca cola t-shirts and giving them away but also putting your company name on the t-shirt as well. Which would be trading on the consumers good will of coca cola in a massive trademark violation.


if it was gonna be sold, thats a different matter alltogether, if thats what you mean by distributed.

anyways, all im saying is that nintendo is a dick. thats it.
They actually got that reputation over the years, its nothing new, im just saying it.


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## RedBlueGreen (Sep 4, 2021)

DKB said:


> Upsetting to say, but people should stop wasting time making fan-made Nintendo games. Clearly, they don't fucking like them.


Right? Just make a similar game that's an original IP. You'll get just as much experience without a C&D or lawsuit.


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## Fangal_Airbag (Sep 4, 2021)

U gotta love nintendo!


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## smf (Sep 4, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> if it was gonna be sold, thats a different matter alltogether, if thats what you mean by distributed.



Putting it on the internet for free is distributing it.


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## Russellgro (Sep 4, 2021)

Phenj said:


> This is why i *hate *Nintendo and stopped supporting them years ago. Even worse than them, their hardcore defenders, bald, fat, and ugly 30 years old virgins on the internet. Literal dogshit of a company.
> 
> Inb4: I won't reply to any fat bastard saying "it's copyright, they're right!!".


Tbh, I have a Love-Hate thing for Nintendo. Rejecting fan-games is the *MOST *thing I hate about them. I mean, they aren't doing it for the money. They only do them to show support for the original games. Well, that's how I look at the fan-games that Nintendo rejects.


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## MetoMeto (Sep 4, 2021)

smf said:


> Putting it on the internet for free is distributing it.


they are fan games, not sold for profit.
its like you making a game on your PC and share it with us to have fun and mod them ourself.

point is nintendo doesnt need to do this, but they do. People like this guy harm no one or nintendo,
if nothing they promote and spread love for a franchise.

As i said, nintendo is not impacted by this at all, they do it cause they can. classic bully behavior.
Thy actaully loose something not gain.
I for example pre ordered metroid dread cause i love metroid. Downloading homebrew game wont stop me from buying what is good lol.
If i think or hear that game sucks i wont bother buying, and not cause someone made an unofficial game.
so it has nothing to do with people sharing interest ad love and having fun in their rooms.

I still think fans do a better job than nintendo in any way shape or form, like AM2R, but i still went on and bought return of samus.
Its literally 2 different universes, official and fan game.

As i said, nintendo does this cause they can not cause they gain or need to. As long as distributing doesnt mean making money off of it.

Im actually glad people pirate their shit, cause they are dicks andshould feel salty and act irationally to show their true face.
As for creators there, they are the only thing holding them, like miyamoto and such... once they are gone (cause poeple dont live forever or can work forever and be heealthy all the time) nintendo is no more and whats left is bad reputation...
But i dont care for a nintendo as a company, i care from gamers perspective, cause that will impact me as a gamer and games i love to play cause nintendo has one of best games out there.

Simply put, they should fire whoever make decisions at nintendo, and teach from sega how to treat fans who love their IP.


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## smf (Sep 4, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> they are fan games, not sold for profit.
> its like you making a game on your PC and share it with us to have fun and mod them ourself.



If you can only have fun when violating trademark and copyright, then making games and releasing them is probably not for you.



MetoMeto said:


> As i said, nintendo is not impacted by this at all, they do it cause they can. classic bully behavior.



They are doing it because they legally entitled to and it would dilute their trademark.

The bullies are the ones criticizing and threatening nintendo.

Classic bully behavior, downplaying your own actions and making a big deal about those trying to defend themselves.


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## CoolMe (Sep 6, 2021)

Why the don't make their OWN game instead? It's the same amount of work with just a little bit added, to make character designs and story.. They'll work on the game without the need of any secrecy, shame/guilt or being bullied by Nintendo, or any company for that matter, treating them like thieves/pirates or whatever..


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## daemonspudguy (Sep 6, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> thats not whats important here.


Yes it is. I completely disagree with Nintendo's actions here, but as the fan game in question was violating Nintendo's copyrights, they have the legal right to take it down, regardless of whether or not it's a "commerical" project.


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## White_Raven_X (Sep 6, 2021)

Why not just change the characters appearance and his ship? Then your not scrapping a hell of alot of work.


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## MetoMeto (Sep 6, 2021)

daemonspudguy said:


> Yes it is. I completely disagree with Nintendo's actions here, but as the fan game in question was violating Nintendo's copyrights, they have the legal right to take it down, regardless of whether or not it's a "commerical" project.


are you a nintendos lawyer or a gamer? that should clarify what i meant.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



White_Raven_X said:


> Why not just change the characters appearance and his ship? Then your not scrapping a hell of alot of work.


because than its not a metroid....duh


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## daemonspudguy (Sep 6, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> are you a nintendos lawyer or a gamer? that should clarify what i meant.


No. That just confuses me further. I am not a lawyer, but I am a massive politics nerd. Even so, anyone with a basic understanding of US copyright law would know that commercial intent doesn't determine if a work is infringing someone else's copyright.


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## Jacobh (Sep 6, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> because than its not a metroid....duh



If you would have less interest in this game if it wasn’t a Metroid game, that would seem to strengthen Nintendo’s position.


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## MetoMeto (Sep 6, 2021)

Jacobh said:


> If you would have less interest in this game if it wasn’t a Metroid game, that would seem to strengthen Nintendo’s position.


Im not giving solutions here or what shoud or shouldnt be done, im just saying how it is...


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## Exidous (Sep 7, 2021)

daemonspudguy said:


> No. That just confuses me further. I am not a lawyer, but I am a massive politics nerd. Even so, anyone with a basic understanding of US copyright law would know that commercial intent doesn't determine if a work is infringing someone else's copyright.


The absence of a commercial purpose is a huge element of the fair use test which is the primary defense to a charge of copyright infringement.


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## daemonspudguy (Sep 7, 2021)

Exidous said:


> The absence of a commercial purpose is a huge element of the fair use test which is the primary defense to a charge of copyright infringement.


According to the Stanford University Copyright & Fair Use library "Another important fair use factor is whether your use deprives the copyright owner of income or undermines a new or potential market for the copyrighted work. Depriving a copyright owner of income is very likely to trigger a lawsuit. This is true even if you are not competing directly with the original work". It can reasonably be said that the creator of the fan game in question was depriving Nintendo of a potential market. Again, I disagree with that position, but a case can be made for it.


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## KimKong (Sep 8, 2021)

I'm so sick of this bull....
But if the creators of these kinds of fan projects would relax a bit and not put out any demos of nothing before the game is finished - well yeah!


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## xdarkmario (Sep 8, 2021)

If your making a fan project make sure your anonymous and untraceable, when they try to shut one down sprout it again from another location.


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