# London Terror attack.



## Flame (Mar 22, 2017)

shame this has come down to my city.

summary

A police officer has been stabbed in the Houses of Parliament in central London
One woman has died and several others are critically injured after a car hit people on Westminster Bridge
The alleged assailant was shot by armed police
Footage on social media shows people lying in the road
Metropolitan Police say they are treating it as a terrorist incident and buildings are in lockdown

i was suppose to go to university today i couldn't wake up.


 My condolences to the people and families


----------



## proflayton123 (Mar 22, 2017)

I saw this on the news, ironic how today has been one year since the Brussels attacks. My condolences to the people and families 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

Welcome to Europe where terrorist attacks are completely normal.

This won't end until there has been many more attacks and thousands of innocent lives have been taken unfortunately.


----------



## proflayton123 (Mar 22, 2017)

I don't want to sound political but borders play a crucial role in itself


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 22, 2017)

Damn terrorists, I'm glad the perp was shot. don't screw with the UK; and I hope whoever was behind this stays in prison for a very  long time.


----------



## retrofan_k (Mar 22, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> Welcome to Europe where terrorist attacks are completely normal.
> 
> This won't end until there has been many more attacks and thousands of innocent lives have been taken unfortunately.



You cannot accept and respond to terrorist attacks as completly normal when one occurs.

It won't end until radicalised islam is nuked off the face of the earth, as that is cause of these current cowardly attacks. Unfortunately that is going to be a hard job, as it's a cancer that is spread in every city in the world right now.


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

retrofan_k said:


> You cannot accept and respond to terrorist attacks as completly normal when one occurs.
> 
> It won't end until radicalised islam is nuked off the face of the earth, as that is cause of these current cowardly attacks. Unfortunately that is going to be a hard job, as it's a cancer that is spread in every city in the world right now.



As a German, try saying no to a "refugee", you'll be immediately called a Nazi.
As a Dutch, try saying no to a "refugee", you'll be called a Nazi (Erdogan did it)
As a French, try saying no to a "refugee", you'll be called a racist and your capitol will get attacked again.

Also, if you didn't notice it yet, the first part of me post was sarcastic...


----------



## Flame (Mar 22, 2017)

retrofan_k said:


> You cannot accept and respond to terrorist attacks as completly normal when one occurs.
> 
> It won't end until radicalised islam is nuked off the face of the earth, as that is cause of these current cowardly attacks. Unfortunately that is going to be a hard job, as it's a cancer that is spread in every city in the world right now.



1st of im atheist. so lets get that straight.

but is anyone saying this done by someone by the islam faith?

looks like a loony done this.


----------



## retrofan_k (Mar 22, 2017)

Flame said:


> 1st of im atheist. so lets get that straight.
> 
> but is anyone saying this by someone by the islam faith?
> 
> looks like a loony done this.



I don't give rats ass either with religion either, yet c'mon it's a no brainer to know what is behind this. Car ramming? France (Nice) ring any bells?


----------



## Flame (Mar 22, 2017)

retrofan_k said:


> I don't give rats ass either with religion either, yet c'mon it's a no brainer to know what is behind this. Car ramming? France (Nice) ring any bells?



so its islam always until proven otherwise.

sad people this days still believe in the tooth fairy. 

you sound radicalised.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

it was not a refugee so Everyone chill out
It was a British-born dude


----------



## leon315 (Mar 22, 2017)

UK should build the GREAT WALL, UK MUST build the GREAT WALL TOO!


----------



## Flame (Mar 22, 2017)

leon315 said:


> UK should build the GREAT WALL, UK MUST build the GREAT WALL TOO!



Italians are the mexicans of europe.

i agree.


----------



## T-hug (Mar 22, 2017)

The police man has died.


----------



## kingraa777 (Mar 22, 2017)

jesus im from brighton right next to london :/


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

Flame said:


> Italians are the mexicans of europe.
> 
> i agree.



I thought Spaniards where the Mexicans of Europe, much like the Danes are the Canadians of Europe


----------



## Flame (Mar 22, 2017)

kingraa777 said:


> jesus im from brighton right next to london :/



when did brighton move.



DinohScene said:


> I thought Spaniards where the Mexicans of Europe, much like the Danes are the Canadians of Europe



lol. Mexicans and Italians are more the same imo.

Spaniards are Argentina.

i watch way too much football.

true about Danes are the Canadians of Europe. both suck at football.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

If anyone believes that things like this happen only in Europe is wrong. Take America for instance. Every year we have several stabbing-incidents.
And those will continue until the IS won't be completely annihilated.
Not Europe's fault. And btw one question to every ignorant person who believes it's europes fault because they let them in: What are we supposed to do? an immigrant escapes into our country, what should we do with him?
Killing him would result in protests and medias would freak out like never before. Of course you also have the option of rejecting him... and what next? The country where he comes from doesn't want him... and what now? What should we do with him? Thats why we let so many people in our countries... and most of the time it helped the economy. Sure incidents like this happen but still even if we wouldn't let them in, it wouldn't get any better. Believe me. And to everyone: please just wait, because we will solve this somehow. Were not there yet, but we will.
EU pays turkey a Ton of money and will probably pay even more Asian countries  so they accept those refugees. So, please, just give it 2 or 3 years and everything is going to be okay. We would have 100,000 refugees a month but because we pay them that money we only have about 1000-2000. And this number will decrease if people will believe in it. IS is also almost down, so we can only hope for bright future.


----------



## T-hug (Mar 22, 2017)

That is the terrorist. Click to enlarge.


----------



## MichiS97 (Mar 22, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> As a German, try saying no to a "refugee", you'll be immediately called a Nazi.
> As a Dutch, try saying no to a "refugee", you'll be called a Nazi (Erdogan did it)
> As a French, try saying no to a "refugee", you'll be called a racist and your capitol will get attacked again.
> 
> Also, if you didn't notice it yet, the first part of me post was sarcastic...


What do refugees have to do with this?


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 22, 2017)

Thanks, Mr. Bush. Fuck you. Now just have tu wait until Iraqi army wins Mosul so these human farts get knocked out the surface of the earth. And people talking about refugees are douchebags. France got an attack and it accepts less than 5,000 Syrian refugees a month. UK must be lower. And the terrorists always are natives, like in Paris in Nov. 2015.


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

MichiS97 said:


> What do refugees have to do with this?



Read the post I quoted.


----------



## leon315 (Mar 22, 2017)

Flame said:


> Italians are the mexicans of europe.
> 
> i agree.


Nice try  but haven't you ever considered that the world most known crime organizations named MAFIA only kill for profits, unlike these muslims, they kill for FREE, beside the EU mexicans are both spanish or grecian. 

this make a huge difference, clearly you are just too dumb to figure it out yourself.


----------



## MichiS97 (Mar 22, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> Read the post I quoted.


So refugees = radical islamists?


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

leon315 said:


> Nice try  but haven't you ever considered that the world most known crime organizations named MAFIA only kill for profits, unlike these muslims, they kill for FREE, beside the EU mexicans are both spanish or grecian.
> 
> this make a huge difference, clearly you are just too dumb to figure it out yourself.



Or you must be dense to not get it.

Hint: it's sarcasm.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

MichiS97 said:


> What do refugees have to do with this?


Exactly. Why is everyone hating on refugees right now If we don't have any proof right now that the person was a refugee. He looks "asian", doesn't mean he's a refugee nor is-dude. Could be a person that lived in France since 20 years...


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

MichiS97 said:


> So refugees = radical islamists?



That's how retrofan sees them I guess.


----------



## Flame (Mar 22, 2017)

leon315 said:


> Nice try  but haven't you ever considered that the world most known crime organizations named MAFIA only kill for profits, unlike these muslims, they kill for FREE, beside the EU mexicans are both spanish or grecian.
> 
> Clearly you are just too dumb to figure it yourself.



inst mexican and italians the know number one crime lords on earth. quiescence i think not!


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

Oh and btw if you think logically we accepted millions of refugees and accidents like this happen occasionally. Not every refugee is a "terrorist".


----------



## Monty Kensicle (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> If anyone believes that things like this happen only in Europe is wrong. Take America for instance. Every year we have several stabbing-incidents.
> And those will continue until the IS won't be completely annihilated.
> Not Europe's fault. And btw one question to every ignorant person who believes it's europes fault because they let them in: What are we supposed to do? an immigrant escapes into our country, what should we do with him?
> Killing him would result in protests and medias would freak out like never before. Of course you also have the option of rejecting him... and what next? The country where he comes from doesn't want him... and what now? What should we do with him? Thats why we let so many people in our countries... and most of the time it helped the economy. Sure incidents like this happen but still even if we wouldn't let them in, it wouldn't get any better. Believe me. And to everyone: please just wait, because we will solve this somehow. Were not there yet, but we will.
> EU pays turkey a Ton of money and will probably pay even more Asian countries  so they accept those refugees. So, please, just give it 2 or 3 years and everything is going to be okay. We would have 100,000 refugees a month but because we pay them that money we only have about 1000-2000. And this number will decrease if people will believe in it. IS is also almost down, so we can only hope for bright future.


So how many deaths should we be preparing ourselves for in the coming years?


----------



## MichiS97 (Mar 22, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> That's how retrofan sees them I guess.


Oh,  I guess I misunderstood his post. 
I didn't really realise that he was talking about refugees there. I mean, him saying that islamists are spreading into every city doesn't necessarily have to refer to refugees


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

Monty Kensicle said:


> So how many deaths should we be preparing ourselves for in the coming years?


Listen, what I'm trying to say is accidents like this will happen and always happened in the history of humans. A person killing another person. It was the same before the EU and it's not going to change. Brits may leave this shit but it will still happen. Refugee or not. You really can't do anything, because there always is a person who is a psycho.


----------



## retrofan_k (Mar 22, 2017)

Flame said:


> so its islam always until proven otherwise.
> 
> sad people this days still believe in the tooth fairy.
> 
> you sound radicalised.



Sad that people are ignorant and self centered too. 

You sound like '"You're Special" too


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> Listen, what I'm trying to say is accidents like this will happen and always happened in the history of humans. A person killing another person. It was the same before the EU and it's not going to change. Brits may leave this shit but it will still happen. Refugee or not. You really can't do anything, because there always is a person who is a psycho.



Exterminate 6.5 billion people so the Earth has a stable 500 million which according to Einstein (I believe) is the very top of the human population what the Earth can endure.

But that's mass genocide and people will complain about that as well ;')


----------



## Monty Kensicle (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> Listen, what I'm trying to say is accidents like this will happen and always happened in the history of humans. A person killing another person. It was the same before the EU and it's not going to change. Brits may leave this shit but it will still happen. Refugee or not. You really can't do anything, because there always is a person who is a psycho.


There seems to be a whole lot more as of late though. This certainly wasn't happening a few years ago right? Feels as though stuff like this should be totally avoidable considering it wasn't a issue 5 years ago.


----------



## Glyptofane (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> Listen, what I'm trying to say is accidents like this will happen and always happened in the history of humans.


What part of this exactly do you consider an "accident"?


----------



## Monty Kensicle (Mar 22, 2017)

clownb said:


> What part of this exactly do you consider an "accident"?


Exactly, just because humans are known to kill each other doesn't mean it is an inevitability that we have to live with.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

Monty Kensicle said:


> There seems to be a whole lot more as of late though. This certainly wasn't happening a few years ago right? Feels as though stuff like this should be totally avoidable considering it wasn't a issue 5 years ago.


You know why this didn't happen 5 years ago? Hmm but the eu did exist 5 years ago and did also accept refugees... but you know why this didn't happen 5 years ago? It's because 5 years ago the "Islamic state" or however you want to call that terror didn't majorly control any parts of Iran. Believe me when we're done with them, then it's going to be "like 5 years ago".
And giving the eu all the fault is just wrong


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

Monty Kensicle said:


> There seems to be a whole lot more as of late though. This certainly wasn't happening a few years ago right? Feels as though stuff like this should be totally avoidable considering it wasn't a issue 5 years ago.



5 years ago, Europe had an occasional shooting once every... couple of years?
But the last 5 years where all attacks where there where a lot of people together.
And the perps where 90% of the time from arab decent.
And coincidentally, ISIS claims attacks.

Ofcourse this is an accident!
How blind can you be to call it an accident!


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> 5 years ago, Europe had an occasional shooting once every... couple of years?
> But the last 5 years where all attacks where there where a lot of people together.
> And the perps where 90% of the time from arab decent.
> And coincidentally, ISIS claims attacks.
> ...


Read what I wrote and you'll know what I mean. When we're done with them in Iran then it's going to stop.


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> You know why this didn't happen 5 years ago? Hmm but the eu did exist 5 years ago and did also accept refugees... but you know why this didn't happen 5 years ago? It's because 5 years ago the "Islamic state" or however you want to call that terror didn't majorly control any parts of Iran. Believe me when we're done with them, then it's going to be "like 5 years ago".
> And giving the eu all the fault is just wrong




AHAHHAHAHAH
European Union is founded in '93.

Mate, I suggest you do some serious research cause you're not even worthy of displaying Europe as your avatar this way.


----------



## Monty Kensicle (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> You know why this didn't happen 5 years ago? Hmm but the eu did exist 5 years ago and did also accept refugees... but you know why this didn't happen 5 years ago? It's because 5 years ago the "Islamic state" or however you want to call that terror didn't majorly control any parts of Iran. Believe me when we're done with them, then it's going to be "like 5 years ago".
> And giving the eu all the fault is just wrong


The EU isn't exactly helping things either. Maybe if the integration process was better and didn't allow for ghettos to crop up the problematic portion of the population would be easier to notice.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Mar 22, 2017)

i hope things get better, it must be very scary


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 22, 2017)

This won't end in Europe period.
Today it is radicalised islamist, as they call it. In the future, <placeholder>.
It seems people already forgot about IRA, ETA, etc.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> AHAHHAHAHAH
> European Union is founded in '93.
> 
> Mate, I suggest you do some serious research cause you're not even worthy of displaying Europe as your avatar this way.


? Learn to read  xD I said it "already" existed 5 years ago...


----------



## Deleted member 377734 (Mar 22, 2017)

well shit....whoever did this deserves to rot in prison till the end of time....damn lunatics


----------



## Flame (Mar 22, 2017)

lcie nimbus said:


> well shit....whoever did this deserves to rot in prison till the end of time....damn lunatics



he wouldnt. its reported that he is dead now.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

Monty Kensicle said:


> The EU isn't exactly helping things either. Maybe if the integration process was better and didn't allow for ghettos to crop up the problematic portion of the population would be easier to notice.


actually i don't know why im bringing eu into this, it has nothing to do with it right now. I know the eu is not perfect, but I hope that you understand that it's also not bad.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 22, 2017)

Flame said:


> he wouldnt. its reported that he is dead now.



Hmm, that's a shame. I have no sympathy towards people who make such dumbass decisions as he did.


----------



## Deleted member 377734 (Mar 22, 2017)

Flame said:


> you are a racist bigot. more clear? who thinks his smart but cant even use a fucking flashcart. then who cried like a bitch.


well then he can rot in hell

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Flame said:


> he wouldnt. its reported that he is dead now.


this is what I wanted to quote


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

lcie nimbus said:


> well shit....whoever did this deserves to rot in prison till the end of time....damn lunatics


died in action, my friend. So, don't worry about that. I love how you say "rot in prison" and not "kill him! hang him! bring the capital punishment back!" because those people who say that aren't better than the murderer themself.


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> ? Learn to read  xD I said it "already" existed 5 years ago...



HUR DURR I R USING ECKS DEE
Maybe try wording it better next time.

You clearly know shit about Europe.
There weren't any refugees 5 years ago.

Not to mention ISIS isn't in control over Iran.
ISIS controls Iraq and parts of Syria.

Back in the 70's, women in Iran wore bikinis n what not, picture perfect example of a westernized muslim country.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> died in action, my friend. So, don't worry about that. I love how you say "rot in prison" and not "kill him! hang him! bring the capital punishment back!" because those people who say that aren't better than the murderer themself.


Nah, you commit a crime on this level, you deserve to die.


----------



## Deleted member 377734 (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> died in action, my friend. So, don't worry about that. I love how you say "rot in prison" and not "kill him! hang him! bring the capital punishment back!" because those people who say that aren't better than the murderer themself.


IMO rotting In prison is a far worse punishment then being killed, if you get the capital punishment, it's over in a few minutes. throwing him in prison for good means he has to suffer there until he dies, knowing he'll never have freedom again.


----------



## SomecallmeBerto (Mar 22, 2017)




----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

lcie nimbus said:


> IMO rotting In prison is a far worse punishment then being killed, if you get the capital punishment, it's over in a few minutes. throwing him in prison for good means he has to suffer there until he dies, knowing he'll never have freedom again.


the good thing is a terrorist gets mostly killed in action, so that's not something i would really worry about... anyway I'm against it.. if you think its better, thats your opinion. I think no person deserves to die, even if he killed someone and I think it's better when he suffers in jail and thinks about what he did, then get killed quickly so he has to think about nothing


----------



## alexg1989 (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> If anyone believes that things like this happen only in Europe is wrong. Take America for instance. Every year we have several stabbing-incidents.
> And those will continue until the IS won't be completely annihilated.
> Not Europe's fault. And btw one question to every ignorant person who believes it's europes fault because they let them in: What are we supposed to do? an immigrant escapes into our country, what should we do with him?
> Killing him would result in protests and medias would freak out like never before. Of course you also have the option of rejecting him... and what next? The country where he comes from doesn't want him... and what now? What should we do with him? Thats why we let so many people in our countries... and most of the time it helped the economy. Sure incidents like this happen but still even if we wouldn't let them in, it wouldn't get any better. Believe me. And to everyone: please just wait, because we will solve this somehow. Were not there yet, but we will.
> EU pays turkey a Ton of money and will probably pay even more Asian countries  so they accept those refugees. So, please, just give it 2 or 3 years and everything is going to be okay. We would have 100,000 refugees a month but because we pay them that money we only have about 1000-2000. And this number will decrease if people will believe in it. IS is also almost down, so we can only hope for bright future.


You're an idealist with no solution. Yes, it is the fault of idealistic, clueless European liberals that this is happening to them. Getting rid of them will make it get better by reducing the crime rate. No one ever said we had to kill them. Just deport them.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

alexg1989 said:


> You're an idealist with no solution. Yes, it is the fault of idealistic, clueless European liberals that this is happening to them. Getting rid of them will make it get better by reducing the crime rate. No one ever said we had to kill them. Just deport them.


but the question is: Where? we don't know where they are from and that's the problem. They come to us with no papers or anything.. so where to go with them? exactly. No one knows because no country gives a fuck about an unknown guy without papers. Basically no country wants him


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Mar 22, 2017)

Gonna state a few things:
-Iran is not Irak (Iran is basically former Persia)
-Shia Muslims are basically no danger to Europe/America. Almost all terror attacks in Europe/America were done by Sunni Muslims
-Western countries are backing Sunni Jihadis in countries like Syria (before that in Lybia, long before that Afghanistan against USSR etc) 
-Even when ISIS is destroyed, the ideology remains. Remember 9/11? There was no ISIS back then!
-Al Quaida (remember them?) are basically our allies against Asad
-> Especially USA (but also France and UK) have destroyed the Middle East by backing beheaders for a long time. The chickens come home to roost. And it won't stop once ISIS is destroyed.


----------



## Deleted User (Mar 22, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> There weren't any refugees 5 years ago.


Refugees at all?
Refugees that didn't integrate?
Refugees coming from Islamic countries?
This isn't some gotcha question, honestly curious because you seem to know so much.


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

VinLark said:


> Refugees at all?
> Refugees that didn't integrate?
> Refugees coming from Islamic countries?
> This isn't some gotcha question, honestly curious because you seem to know so much.



Source: actually living in Europe.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 22, 2017)

Perhaps wherever you live.
In Germany, specifically where I live, there were many refugees from time ago. Many from Kosovo and also from some African countries.
Actually around this region they retrofitted the same places where those refugees lived before and expanded them to take more refugees in the late years.


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Mar 22, 2017)

MeAndHax said:


> it was not a refugee so Everyone chill out
> 
> 
> it was a british guy called Abu Izzadeen and he's dead, so everything's fine. He was already known for supporting terrorism.




wait so he was known and the authorities still allowed him to walk the streets


----------



## Enteking (Mar 22, 2017)

In Europe, there is a war between parallel societies.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 22, 2017)

Enteking said:


> In Europe, there is a war between parallel societies.


I think it is an exaggeration to call it a war, but sure there is some... kind of annoying culture shock... like people being way too loud and annoying.

Complaining of the inner "racist" that uses public transportation daily going through a refugee camp that happens to be between home and work: "they are way too loud, they don't seem to take showers, they don't keep still in their sits, they move around all the fucking time". Oh, sorry, I had to take that out of my system, it is every morning the same. PS: and that's all I can complain about.-


----------



## jimbo13 (Mar 22, 2017)

I am done giving a shit, people need to start dragging the politicians and people approving of open border islamization in to the streets.

To all the liberals who want to feign stupidity with the refugee bullshit go hose the blood off the sidewalk then you can come back and call me a racist, I don't care because those in denial about what this shit is are mentally ill.


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Perhaps wherever you live.
> In Germany, specifically where I live, there were many refugees from time ago. Many from Kosovo and also from some African countries.
> Actually around this region they retrofitted the same places where those refugees lived before and expanded them to take more refugees in the late years.



Bigger cities always had some refugees from some small war.
However in recent years, the big cities couldn't cope with the massive flood and decided to take the camps and housing of refugees to the smaller cities and even towns.

Hence the "problem" seems much more widespread.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 22, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> wait so he was known and the authorities still allowed him to walk the streets


He was arrested once and jailed for 4 years. Then he was silent for a period of time and now boom


----------



## spotanjo3 (Mar 22, 2017)

Not surprised. This world is worse. it is getting much and much worse in the future. Crazy.


----------



## yusuo (Mar 22, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> wait so he was known and the authorities still allowed him to walk the streets


No, the news reported the name wrong, that guy is in prison


----------



## MadMageKefka (Mar 22, 2017)

This "politically correct" bullshit is getting out of hand. People are so fucking afraid of (god forbid) hurting someones feelings, everyone gets so butthurt over any little word or thought that MIGHT be considered offencive... I'm so tired of it. The world needs to grow some thicker god damn skin and get itself back to reality.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 22, 2017)

Yeah, PC is fucking bullshit. But I don't know how do you imply that is related to this.


----------



## DinohScene (Mar 22, 2017)

MadMageKefka said:


> This "politically correct" bullshit is getting out of hand. People are so fucking afraid of (god forbid) hurting someones feelings, everyone gets so butthurt over any little word or thought that MIGHT be considered offencive... I'm so tired of it. The world needs to grow some thicker god damn skin and get itself back to reality.





sarkwalvein said:


> Yeah, PC is fucking bullshit. But I don't know how do you imply that is related to this.



Let us please have a polygamous marriage ;-;

I soo agree to that.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 22, 2017)

Agreed, PC bullshit needs to die, and people  need to grow thicker skin and stop being so damned easily offended. Time to put the big boy pants on.


----------



## MadMageKefka (Mar 22, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Yeah, PC is fucking bullshit. But I don't know how do you imply that is related to this.


Watch the video linked a few posts back and you'll understand.


----------



## Doran754 (Mar 23, 2017)

Flame said:


> so its islam always until proven otherwise.
> 
> sad people this days still believe in the tooth fairy.
> 
> you sound radicalised.



Are you from London?


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

MadMageKefka said:


> Watch the video linked a few posts back and you'll understand.


What I get from that video is that any clown can get a microphone.
Those guys seem appropriate for working on The Sun, TBH.
Journalism as a whole is completely sick, not just that piece, all of it.
On the one hand by useless manipulative PC shit, in the other hand by clickbaiting yellow press (also manipulative btw).
No one cares to tell the truth, just get the views and if it happens to be true, well... great?
I don't know, journalism is dead. Fake news all around.

PS: On a side note, I think a birthday cake is a very wrong icon for this discussion... Well, it is a very bad icon for General Off-topic chat in general.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Mar 23, 2017)

what a complete twat face anyone who thinks killing random innocent people is a justifiable action can go eat shit


----------



## WiiUBricker (Mar 23, 2017)

Flame said:


> The alleged assailant was shot by armed police


I expected that. But they accomplish nothing if they insta-kill every terrorist at first sight. They should capture them alive and do some intense questioning. That way they would have a better chance of understanding the motives of those people and learn new information on how to combat and prevent future attacks.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Mar 23, 2017)

tbh most terror attacks now are lone wolf attacks, capturing him probably wouldn't have garnered any info at all except his name and lawyer who will get him housed in a nice hospital because he has mental health issues and allowed to see is friends and family all at the expense of the British tax payers, personally I would prefer the money go to the families of the victims and towards ensuring nothing like this can happen again.....although I will say I would have expected a lot more bollards around that area to prevent exactly this kind of thing, whenever I have been in London cars barely move at a snails pace anyway, a few bollards along roads near significant landmarks would probably make these kinds of attacks much harder to pull off

anyway RIP to the victims and I hope everyone injured has a speedy recovery.


----------



## Deleted member 377734 (Mar 23, 2017)

we have a pic of the perp

View attachment 82245


View attachment 82246

there you go folks, the face of the twisted S.O.B himself


----------



## Deleted member 377734 (Mar 23, 2017)

we have a pic of the perp











there you go folks, the face of the twisted S.O.B himself

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

we have a pic of the perp








there you go folks, the face of the twisted S.O.B himself


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

I don't think you should post that. It is disgusting.
Leave the gore for The Sun. IMHO.


----------



## Joe88 (Mar 23, 2017)

More or less what I see every time something like this happens (and still seeing even right now)


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

The fact that the London mayor said "terrorist attacks" are part of a big city just shows how brainwashed the PC culture is.

Let's call it what it is, radical Islamic terrorism.

What would be even crazier, is if he entered with a EU passport. 

Time to stand up and fight UK. Quit letting these scums hide behind these PC laws, tougher surveillance and action is needed!

I'm glad Trump is actively trying to prevent these crazy ideas from infiltrating our country.


----------



## jimbo13 (Mar 23, 2017)

Say what you want about it, cut these attacks 99%.


----------



## G0R3Z (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> The fact that the London mayor said "terrorist attacks" are part of a big city just shows how brainwashed the PC culture is.
> 
> Let's call it what it is, radical Islamic terrorism.
> 
> ...



Coming from someone from the UK - We are an extremely liberal country in general. The amount of us that have liberal ideas far outweigh the more extreme views, so you can't approach it in the same way as America. 

That said, something must be done and Theresa May is trying to sweep this under the rug, like the crone that she is. No, I don't see a Donald Trump "Ban them all!" approach happening nor do I think that is okay (I can see it happening after brexit is finalised, mind) but we need stricter rules on immigration. I'm a very open minded, liberal person but our rules on immigration are so loose it's unbelievable.


----------



## Hayleia (Mar 23, 2017)

Memoir said:


> Nah, you commit a crime on this level, you deserve to die.


The problem is (if we are talking about ISIS and friends) that it is waht they want. Their flyer says that they are entitled to a free one-way trip to paradise if they die while fighting for the cause. Why do you think they always """""accidentally forget """ their ID cards in their stolen cars? That's harder than accidentally updating sysNAND. They do it on purpose because they want to be found and killed.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Mar 23, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> The problem is (if we are talking about ISIS and friends) that it is waht they want. Their flyer says that they are entitled to a free one-way trip to paradise if they die while fighting for the cause. Why do you think they always """""accidentally forget """ their ID cards in their stolen cars? That's harder than accidentally updating sysNAND. They do it on purpose because they want to be found and killed.



The problem is that it's not just ISIS. Household terrorism doesn't apply to just one group. Locking them up will just waste space.


----------



## Stercate79 (Mar 23, 2017)

"Isis claims responsibility for London terror attack"
"ISIS is not Islam!!!"


----------



## Hayleia (Mar 23, 2017)

Memoir said:


> The problem is that it's not just ISIS. Household terrorism doesn't apply to just one group. Locking them up will just waste space.


I agree I agree, I just said that in my opinion they don't deserve to get something they want (die, while fighting for the cause). They'd deserve something else (die, but not while fighting for the cause? ).


----------



## Stercate79 (Mar 23, 2017)

Without Jokes, fucking bastards, condolences to the people and families


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Mar 23, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> I agree I agree, I just said that in my opinion they don't deserve to get something they want (die, while fighting for the cause). They'd deserve something else (die, but not while fighting for the cause? ).



I say give them an ironic death.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> The fact that the London mayor said "terrorist attacks" are part of a big city just shows how brainwashed the PC culture is.
> 
> Let's call it what it is, radical Islamic terrorism.
> 
> ...



Fuck you, and welcome to my ignore list. It is 'islamist' terrorism and not Islamic. The funniest is that this guy is Jamaican. And you know what? Every single terrorist attack that happened in Europ since 3 years has been commited by French or Belgian natives. NATIVES. You get it, born in Europe. So saying building a wall made with human shit won't solve this problem. Good luck locking up your terrorists in your own country. Oh, and Trump is a childish, stupid, bullshit douchebag that only deserves to be placed in a psychiatric hospital.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Hayleia said:


> I agree I agree, I just said that in my opinion they don't deserve to get something they want (die, while fighting for the cause). They'd deserve something else (die, but not while fighting for the cause? ).



They actually deserve to be publicly humiliated.


----------



## G0R3Z (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Fuck you, and welcome to my ignore list. It is 'islamist' terrorism and not Islamic. The funniest is that this guy is Jamaican. And you know what? Every single terrorist attack that happened in Europ since 3 years has been commited by French or Belgian natives. NATIVES. You get it, born in Europe. So saying building a wall made with human shit won't solve this problem. Good luck locking up your terrorists in your own country. Oh, and Trump is a childish, stupid, bullshit douchebag that only deserves to be placed in a psychiatric hospital.



Pretty much the only people who agree with Trump's policies are either American or Russian, and I don't see many russians agreeing with him either. That shit won't work in France or the UK, not one bit.


----------



## Stercate79 (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Fuck you, and welcome to my ignore list. It is 'islamist' terrorism and not Islamic. The funniest is that this guy is Jamaican. And you know what? Every single terrorist attack that happened in Europ since 3 years has been commited by French or Belgian natives. NATIVES. You get it, born in Europe. So saying building a wall made with human shit won't solve this problem. Good luck locking up your terrorists in your own country. Oh, and Trump is a childish, stupid, bullshit douchebag that only deserves to be placed in a psychiatric hospital.


BULLSHIT, every attack in Europe has been commited by yes NATIVE citiziens, but with african/middle east origins, because in France and Germany there is that terrible law called "Jus Soli", which if you were born in that country you automatically get the citizienship. And no i'm not an extremist or a far right supporter


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

Hey, don't get so triggered.
Trump kind of remembers me Chaplin's caricatured version of Hitler from The Great Dictator.
I even picture him playing and rolling around the oversized globe.
He serves as a comedy man, in a very wrong position for sure.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

G0R3Z said:


> Pretty much the only people who agree with Trump's policies are either American or Russian, and I don't see many russians agreeing with him either. That shit won't work in France or the UK, not one bit.



What's funny is that like I said, UK and France are certainy the two countries in Europe that let the less refugees enter. Germany accepted millions of them, France less than 10,000, and Great Britain close to zero.


----------



## MichiS97 (Mar 23, 2017)

Funny how this is turning into a discussion about immigration laws. 
The guy was born in the UK.


----------



## G0R3Z (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> What's funny is that like I said, UK and France are certainy the two countries in Europe that let the less refugees enter. Germany accepted millions of them, France less than 10,000, and Great Britain close to zero.



Our policies on immigration and extremism are still questionable. Theresa may is a joke and she has no idea how to approach this.

It isn't just immigration either, we don't have anything in our education about extremism, or even about islam in general. I wasn't taught even one sliver of knowledge about islam when I was in high school. Understanding helps us to approach matters. The British people know so little about islam that many instantly condemn anything to do with islam.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

Stercate79 said:


> BULLSHIT, every attack in Europe has been commited by yes NATIVE citiziens, but with african/middle east origins, because in France and Germany there is that terrible law called "Jus Soli", which if you were born in that country you automatically get the citizienship. And no i'm not an extremist or a far right supporter



So, according to you, I don't deserve to be French because my parents are born in Morocco. Yeah, fine. I don't even know how to speak Arabic, and I was born in Paris and always lived there. And my father certainly talks English and French way better than anyone from French/American origins.


----------



## Stercate79 (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> So, according to you, I don't deserve to be French because my parents are born in Morocco. Yeah, fine. I don't even know how to speak Arabic, and I was born in Paris and alwas lived there. And my father certainly talks English and French way better than anyone from French/American origins.


It's called Jus Soli, and thankfully here where i live it doesn't apply anymore. Btw in my opinion no, you have to aquire it after a long time. Just my opinion.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

Back on topic, 100% security is not achievable. At any time a random human peiece of poo can decide to take a gun and kill random people. IMO, ISIS terrorists aren't radicalized or anything. They just are stupid people, dumb enough to trust into a violent and Nazi ideology that 2 or 3 idiots tried to justify with nonsensical Quran quotes.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Mar 23, 2017)

Stercate79 said:


> BULLSHIT, every attack in Europe has been commited by yes NATIVE citiziens, but with african/middle east origins, because in France and Germany there is that terrible law called "Jus Soli", which if you were born in that country you automatically get the citizienship. And no i'm not an extremist or a far right supporter


You really don't get it do you?

These people are born in Europe. What are you gonna do? Burn them all because a minority of them are assholes? Send them back to a random country they've never been to? Build a wall around them?

How is that possible that people forget so easily our common history, and why making assumption based on race or religion lead to abominations?

The refugees, while possibly having in their ranks some potential terrorists, are used as the one big black sheep everyone blames. Enough of that.
I got someone else to blame: G.W. Bush for the Iraq disaster.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

Stercate79 said:


> It's called Jus Soli, and thankfully here where i live it doesn't apply anymore. Btw in my opinion no, you have to aquire it after a long time. Just my opinion.



Jus Soli isn't always automatic. Either you become French semi-automatically because your mate is French, and still you must ask it, either you become French at 13, 16 or 18 if you are born in France from non-French parents. You can also become French after x years by naturalization, but that's the usuall way like in the US I guess.


----------



## G0R3Z (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Back on topic, 100% security is not achievable. At any time a random human peiece of poo can decide to take a gun and kill random people. IMO, ISIS terrorists aren't radicalized or anything. They just are stupid people, dumb enough to trust into a violent and Nazi ideology that 2 or 3 idiots tried to justify with nonsensical Quran quotes.



Not much different than what christians do to justify their actions. 

It's a horrible occurrence, but I've got to put it to the police, they put it together really damn quick. I mean, they were there in minutes.


----------



## Stercate79 (Mar 23, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> You really don't get it do you?
> 
> These people are born in Europe. What are you gonna do? Burn them all because a minority of them are assholes?
> 
> ...


What are you talking about?


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

Actually, Jus Soli is only automatic in the American continent, specially in the USA.
Not that I condone it, but in Europe there is no automatic Jus Soli.

But again, the main problem here is education, and America lacks it in a base level.
With all the cases of crazy people getting guns and killing people around every couple years I really don't know how they don't put the "extremist" label over them... Oh, perhaps because these people are too white, so they need another label, I know, it's "violent videogames" (like in 1999)... No it isn't, the problem always was poor education.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

Stercate79 said:


> What are you talking about?



GW Bush destroyed the Iraqi govt. in 2003 to give power to an ethnical minority. This lack of political power in the country led to ISIS installing easily.
BTW, several terrorists who get arrested aren't even from Arab origins, if that's what you mean. Yeah, 'real' natives, Caucasian, all the shit.


----------



## Stercate79 (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> GW Bush destroyed the Iraqi govt. in 2003 to give power to an ethnical minority. This lack of political power in the country led to ISIS installing easily.
> BTW, several terrorists who get arrested aren't even from Arab origins, if that's what you mean. Yeah, 'real' natives, Caucasian, all the shit.


I already know that, Bush and the Arab Spring literally destroyed the peace in the Arab World, then?


----------



## Pacheko17 (Mar 23, 2017)

Flame said:


> 1st of im atheist. so lets get that straight.
> 
> but is anyone saying this done by someone by the islam faith?
> 
> looks like a loony done this.



It was a muslim and ISIS claimed responsibility.

When will we just nuke this religion of war and terror off the planet? Western society shall do anything to end it's biggest threats and ally with those who have common sense and a will to progress.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> It was a muslim and ISIS claimed responsibility.
> 
> When will we just nuke this religion of war and terror off the planet? Western society shall do anything to end it's biggest threats and ally with those who have common sense and a willing to progress.



Yeah, of course. Let's exterminate Germans because Nazis, Americans because Indian massacres, Hispanics because Inca and Aztec massacres, Italians because catholic vs protestant massacres, etc. Quran is nothing else than New and Old Testaments with details changed man.


----------



## MichiS97 (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> It was a muslim and ISIS claimed responsibility.
> 
> When will we just nuke this religion of war and terror off the planet? Western society shall do anything to end it's biggest threats and ally with those who have common sense and a will to progress.


You want to kill off every single person belonging to a specific religion.

People said that before, you know, and we call them Nazis now.

- Sincerely, a German.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> It was a muslim and ISIS claimed responsibility.
> 
> When will we just nuke this religion of war and terror off the planet? Western society shall do anything to end it's biggest threats and ally with those who have common sense and a willing to progress.


Never, have you forgot Saudi Arabia is the biggest associate of the west, a horrible place to live if you are not in the highest class, but the Kings that govern the economic system and banks of the west. Please, learn 2 western hypocresy already, you can't fall so easy for the narrative.


----------



## G0R3Z (Mar 23, 2017)

Didn't think anyone seriously thinks "let's nuke them all". I believe the Nazis did that once because of their ideals..how did that go back in WW2?


----------



## MichiS97 (Mar 23, 2017)

G0R3Z said:


> Didn't think anyone seriously thinks "let's nuke them all". I believe the Nazis did that once because of their ideals..how did that go back in WW2?


I don't believe he really thinks that. He's only saying it because it's cool and edgy thing to say these days. Fucking scum.


----------



## Pacheko17 (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Yeah, of course. Let's exterminate Germans because Nazis, Americans because Indian massacres, Hispanics because Inca and Aztec massacres, Italians because catholic vs protestant massacres, etc. Quran is nothing else than New and Old Testaments with details changed man.





MichiS97 said:


> You want to kill off every single person belonging to a specific religion.
> 
> People said that before, you know, and we call them Nazis now.
> 
> - Sincerely, a German.



I might have phrased myself wrongly, I don't want muslims to die, I want the religion to die along with its extremists.
"Moderate" islam often leads to extremism, it's just how it works and they gave us more than enough proof of that.
It's in the root of their dangerous ideology to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them, it's like any other evil ideology but 10 times worse.



sarkwalvein said:


> Never, have you forgot Saudi Arabia is the biggest associate of the west, a horrible place to live if you are not in the highest class, but the Kings that govern the economic system and banks of the west. Please, learn 2 western hypocresy already, you can't fall so easy for the narrative.



Saudi Arabia is the biggest associate of leftist scum, the ones who accept money from them and then go on trying to fight for equality are the true hypocrites. 
Hillary claimed to want equality but most of her help came from a country that stones women to death for the smallest things.
We can survive without Saudi Arabia and Trump will prove that to be true.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



MichiS97 said:


> I don't believe he really thinks that. He's only saying it because it's cool and edgy thing to say these days. Fucking scum.



"Fucking scum"
Says the cuck.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> Saudi Arabia is the biggest associate of leftist scum, the ones who accept money from them and then go on trying to fight for equality are the true hypocrites.
> Hillary claimed to want equality but most of her help came from a country that stones women to death for the smallest things.
> We can survive without Saudi Arabia and Trump will prove that to be true.


Not at all. It is the biggest associate of the leftist and the rightist scum. All around. The associates of capitalism.
Germany runs on Saudi Arabia's money.
Volkswagen, Deutsche Bank, etc. They all run on their money and investments.
And it is not a thing from Germany. It is the same in all the western world.
They were the biggest associates of G.W. Bush... research a little...
Everybody lies to you, the scum is both in the left and the right, don't be blinded.
PS: I suppose you are to young... you will learn in time, everybody lies.


----------



## Jhyrachy (Mar 23, 2017)

Joke aside, the problem is that "moderate" muslim almost never condemn the action, because they can't.
What these terrorists are doing is exactly what's it's written in their religious text.

Islam must be receive a radical change of doctrine to become compatible with modern daylife


----------



## G0R3Z (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> Saudi Arabia is the biggest associate of leftist scum, the ones who accept money from them and then go on trying to fight for equality are the true hypocrites.
> Hillary claimed to want equality but most of her help came from a country that stones women to death for the smallest things.
> We can survive without Saudi Arabia and Trump will prove that to be true.



Don't make it about 'left' or 'right'. Everyone puts up with Saudi Arabia. EVERYONE. Only because they control so much wealth and resources. If they had no oil, everyone would condemn them straight away. I'm leftist and Saudi Arabia's Politics disgust me to no end. Absolutely horrible male dominated culture.


----------



## Pacheko17 (Mar 23, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> PS: I suppose you are to young... you will learn in time, everybody lies.


If everybody lies, who shall I trust?
It seems all media these days are biased.
I just believe in whatever proved to be good for me. Brazil was under socialism for most of my life, and while we haven't got rid of it entirely, things have just gotten so much better. I don't have to save money for food now, it's just what worked for me...



Jhyrachy said:


> Islam must be receive a radical change of doctrine to become compatible with modern daylife


This. Unfortunately it probably won't happen.



G0R3Z said:


> Don't make it about 'left' or 'right'. Everyone puts up with Saudi Arabia. EVERYONE. Only because they control so much wealth and resources. If they had no oil, everyone would condemn them straight away. I'm leftist and Saudi Arabia's Politics disgust me to no end. Absolutely horrible male dominated culture.



I don't know if that's gonna keep on going for long. 
I doubt the saudis will last much longer.


----------



## spotanjo3 (Mar 23, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> i hope things get better, it must be very scary



No, never. It won't get better. NONE! It is only get worse.. Much worse!


----------



## BlueFox gui (Mar 23, 2017)

azoreseuropa said:


> No, never. It won't get better. NONE! It is only get worse.. Much worse!


don't have a though like that, one day it will get better


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> If everybody lies, who shall I trust?
> It seems all media these days are biased.
> I just believe in whatever proved to be good for me. Brazil was under socialism for most of my life, and while we haven't got rid of it entirely, things have just gotten so much better. I don't have to save money for food now, it's just what worked for me...


Trust yourself. Research a lot.
That is the reason education is so important for democracy.
And the reason poor education is the source of many of our problems.

And regarding South American socialism, that wasn't socialism, that was a putrid nest of corruption and bullshit.
I am glad that thing is dying, that also affected my motherland.


----------



## Jhyrachy (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> This. Unfortunately it probably won't happen.



And that's why, sooner or later, we'll have to enact restrictive action against muslim.


----------



## Pacheko17 (Mar 23, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Trust yourself. Research a lot.
> That is the reason education is so important for democracy.
> Ant the poor education is the source of many of our problems.
> 
> ...



That's what socialism has been to much of the world.
Socialism relies too much on a specific group of people with a lot of power, and power corrupts.
I'd be ok with socialism if the governments weren't so evil and if I managed to keep a happy life, but that seems nearly impossible.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Jhyrachy said:


> And that's why, sooner or later, we'll have to enact restrictive action against muslim.



Any time someone tries that, the globalists just label them as racist, islamophobic or "literally hitler".
It's really hard man.


----------



## spotanjo3 (Mar 23, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> don't have a though like that, one day it will get better



Since you are teenager. So you don't know whats going on in the past. I live through it for over 30 years. This year is so much worse than I was in 30 years ago. No, absolutely not. As long as humanity is a violence and it is not going to get better. It is your wishful thinking. Look back since 1980's until now.. It is getting worse and worse. This time is much worse. Paying any attention to the history in the paste through now. It is never get better. Look at the global warming also. No.


----------



## MeAndHax (Mar 23, 2017)

I just want everyone to remind why they chose UK, and not Portugal or Poland for example.. why UK? Because they are one of the nations that help destroying IS, it has nothing to do with the EU, they chose it to take "a revenge". Many of you believe that it's the EU fault or something like that, that's not true. Belgium, UK, France and Germany fight strong against them, that's why this keeps happen in those countries.


----------



## Spider_Man (Mar 23, 2017)

one thing i hate is that people are quick to blame the muslim community, when it is not the muslim community its the extremists that want to force their religion/beliefs onto the world.

the world will never be rid of this, all we can do is unite and take a stand.

but i do think our governments should be stronger and take action, when there is a known list linking individuals to these type of groups, i believe they should be targeted before they have the chance to carry out such vile attacks.

there is no sense in having such a list to sit and do nothing until that person/group carries out an attack, it does nothing to the families that have lost loved ones to admit that this person/group was on a known list linking them to terrorist/activist groups.

it will get to the point where our streets will have to be manned by armed forces to ensure public safety.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Mar 23, 2017)

azoreseuropa said:


> Since you are teenager. So you don't know whats going on in the past. I live through it for over 30 years. This year is so much worse than I was in 30 years ago. No, absolutely not. As long as humanity is a violence and it is not going to get better. It is your wishful thinking. Look back since 1980's until now.. It is getting worse and worse. This time is much worse. Paying any attention to the history in the paste through now. It is never get better. Look at the global warming also. No.


so get out of your country and go live in some better place


----------



## spotanjo3 (Mar 23, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> so get out of your country and go live in some better place



LOL. You misunderstood. My country is fine. I am talking about every countries.. Everywhere. You are obviously blind surrender around you. Keep your eyes for 20 more years and you will understand whats going on. I know about Brazil too. Too many corruptions too.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Mar 23, 2017)

azoreseuropa said:


> LOL. You misunderstood. My country is fine. You are obviously blind surrender around you. Keep your eyes for 20 more years and you will understand whats going on. I know about Brazil too. Too many corruptions too.


yes i want to live outside, everything is corruption, and things are expensive


----------



## Jhyrachy (Mar 23, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> Any time someone tries that, the globalists just label them as racist, islamophobic or "literally hitler".
> It's really hard man.



It'll happen, it's only a matter of time.

Right now terrorism is a game of politics, they want to show that we are exposed, but they do not want to do too much damage, because a new 9/11 could tilt the popular opinion to an hard reaction that could lead to more problem for them


----------



## leonmagnus99 (Mar 23, 2017)

well, it is a mad world we live in.

it used to be even maaadder, europeans at least learnt from it.
look at the mid east, but who is making it all boil in the mid east ?




Jhyrachy said:


> It'll happen, it's only a matter of time.
> 
> Right now terrorism is a game of politics, they want to show that we are exposed, but they do not want to do too much damage, because a new 9/11 could tilt the popular opinion to an hard reaction that could lead to more problem for them


well put man !


----------



## spotanjo3 (Mar 23, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> yes i want to live outside, everything is corruption, and things are expensive



Not only your country but even here in America is full of corruption too. Do not believe people telling you how wonderful they lived in America. Do not think coming here is your answer. Many come here grasp for the air and still struggle with a living.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Mar 23, 2017)

azoreseuropa said:


> Not only your country but even here in America is full of corruption too. Do not believe people telling you how wonderful they lived in America. Do not think coming here is your answer. Many come here grasp for the air and still struggle with a living.


its better live in a country with better conditions, then one with worst conditions


----------



## G0R3Z (Mar 23, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> its better live in a country with better conditions, then one with worst conditions



If a country's people don't stand together to improve those conditions, then nothing will ever change.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Mar 23, 2017)

G0R3Z said:


> If a country's people don't stand together to improve those conditions, then nothing will ever change.


ooooo seriously?
Did you discover this alone? XD
jk
thats why i want to get out of this shit ¬¬


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

Spoiler: Spoiler Alert



The attack was contucted by a Radical Islamic Terrorist



Shocked to find out today who was behind it all.

The damnest thing is that the British government were using surveillance on him and his other radical Islamic accomplices...

Such a shame that the UK govt didn't act and save those innocent people.

It's time to take back your country UK, Brexit was the start! There is gonna be a right wing shift, the world is tired of this happening all over the globe!


----------



## nIxx (Mar 23, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> there's no place for religion in the civilized world


Fixed it for you since people like to forget what these peacefull Christians did over several hundred years but of course nowadays its easier to target the Islam .


----------



## nIxx (Mar 23, 2017)

Other human beings do stupid stuff if you constantly tell them the enemy is XY no matter what religion, no matter from where they are and no matter in which time we are.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> sure, but who's commiting all these terrible acts against other human beings? islam is cancer



You are blaming more than 2 billion people for what hundreds of people do. Because they say they are Muslim doesn't mean this is Islam. If someone commits a mass shooting, should we say his religion is cancer? And when poor kids get killed by mentally disturbed people every month in the US because of the predominance of guns, nobody says anything? I think you should shut the fuck up. From now, I'll report any post insulting Islam or Muslims for racism/xenophobia, because that's what this is, you douchebag.

PS: I'm an atheist, born from an agnostic father and a Muslim mother.


----------



## nIxx (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> The whole Middle East region (except for Israel) is a mess. Hezbollah has been allowed to run amok for decades.
> 
> Gotta hand it to Netanyahu he's been a stern in his approach of handling these radical Islamic terrorist. If they kill 1 Israel citizen, their whole neighborhood gets taken down. Guess that's the only way radical Islamists will learn.



And kill innocent people even kids with them. And they react the same way as you since they want revenge. Neverending cicle


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

nIxx said:


> And kill innocent people even kids with them. And they react the same way as you since they want revenge. Neverending cicle



They bulldoze the buildings, I haven't seen them kill the neighborhood.


----------



## nIxx (Mar 23, 2017)

You forget all the fighting Jets (or drones) that throw bombs over building at the night when people usual sleep and these are not all terrorist or whatever you will name them.
But i guess your kind of people just repeat the same stuff over and over again without really thinking about it ^^ Hey wait this is kind of similar to ...


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> They bulldoze the buildings, I haven't seen them kill the neighborhood.


Netanhyahu is a stupid far-right shit. He keeps violating every single international law.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

Watch out people, these are cancer.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

nIxx said:


> You forget all the fighting Jets (or drones) that throw bombs over building at the night when people usual sleep and these are not all terrorist or whatever you will name them.
> But i guess your kind of people just repeat the same stuff over and over again without really thinking about it ^^ Hey wait this is kind of similar to ...



It's time the countries that allow terrorist groups to hide in schools or hospitals get held accountable.

What is Israel supposed to do, allow rockets to be shot into their sovereign country? 

They have to target these radical Islamic terrorists with the best tools, while trying to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible.

Bibi is doing his best to protect his citizens, that's why he got re-elected! Bravo to him for standing up for his people.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

Srsly guys, people died and what are you doing? Say the islam is stupid like 365 the day, can't we be like a human being with out hate just for one day and stand up as a society as a whole? 
I hope the best for the families and friends of the innocents. 
BTW: Christian terrorism still exist and it's a big problem in africa, and it's the west fault especially the US with their slavery in rhe past. So I can say fuck the Us americans, they are in direct terrorists? No, absolutely not because not every US american is like that especially today. So pls see people as a human being with their own personality etc. Every religion, political view etc can be use for terrorism so start thinking about the real reasons and not jusr say it's the islam fault.


----------



## RevPokemon (Mar 23, 2017)

GamingAori said:


> Srsly guys, people died and what are you doing? Say the islam is stupid like 365 the day, can't we be like a human being with out hate just for one day and stand up as a society as a whole?
> I hope the best for the families and friends of the innocents.
> BTW: Christian terrorism still exist and it's a big problem in africa, and it's the west fault especially the US with their slavery in rhe past. So I can say fuck the Us americans, they are in direct terrorists? No, absolutely not because not every US american is like that especially today. So pls see people as a human being with their own personality etc. Every religion, political view etc can be use for terrorism so start thinking about the real reasons and not jusr say it's the islam fault.



To be honest, the vast majority of jihadi-inspired terrorism and the shit in the Middle East was/is caused by American and other western nation's past and current foreign policy decisions.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

RevPokemon said:


> To be honest, the vast majority of jihadi-inspired terrorism and the shit in the Middle East was/is caused by American and other western nation's past and current foreign policy decisions.


I know that, but I think that would be much more difficult to explain because it's not that long ago and explaining it to patriotic people can be difficult, but still I think I gave some examples why we need to look for the real reasons and think more than just populist.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

No offense, but *lumping all Trump voters as being stupid when clearly that isn't the case is pretty fucking asinine*. *I could easily lump all Clinton and Bernie supporters as being intolerant crybabies who don't like others' opinions*, but I won't.  This is why politics will never end well, people are always bickering on either side ad nauseum without any clear victor. Yes, there was a terrorist attack, yes, the guy who did it was an idiot, it never should have happened, for for hell's sake people, learn to disagree. Sheesh. 

Generalizing a specific group of people for the actions of some is not only foolish, but it only makes the other side look equally just as bad.  There's no clear victor in political discussions. One political groups' opinions are in no way superior to another's, people who think in such a sanctimonious manner should not be taken seriously.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> No offense, but l*umping all Trump voters as being stupid when clearly that isn't the case is pretty fucking asinine*. *I could easily lump all Clinton and Bernie supporters as being intolerant crybabies who don't like others' opinions*, but I won't.  This is why politics will never end well, people are always bickering on either side ad nauseum without any clear victor. Yes, there was a terrorist attack, yes, the guy who did it was an idiot, it never should have happened, for for hell's sake people, learn to disagree. Sheesh.



Well, this guy still insulted Islam, said that I was a dirty Muslim etc. I am not saying that because they voted Republican, I have nothing against this party. But it is a fact that D. Trump is a stupid random millionnaire that million people decided to elect POTUS, and that bothers me.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Well, this guy still insulted Islam, said that I was a dirty Muslim etc. I am not saying that because they voted Republican, I have nothing against this party. But it is a fact that D. Trump is a stupid random millionnaire that million people decided to elect POTUS, and that bothers me.



Well, you did say this,



> But you are certainly the_* same type of mentally retarded people who voted for Trump*_.



No offense, dude, but that's a pretty bold and stupid assumption to make when you don't know what all the thoughts of people who supported Trump. I don't go around lumping people who supported Clinton or Bernie for the actions of a few, do I? No, then neither should you, or anyone else. I could so easily generalize based on the actions of others, but I don't because that solves nothing.

It's comments like this that make me want to start blocking people.


I had my reasons for not electing Clinton, and yet according to people on the internet, that's worthy of ridicule, well I think that's utter bullshit just because my opinions are different from others. I have right-wing beliefs, but nothing against those who are left wing. It's when either spectrum gets extreme is when I call BS.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> islam is a race now? ok lol



Dictionary.com describes Islam as:

_noun_
1. The religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.

2. The whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

So yes, not a race, but a body of religious followers. Arabic is a race of people primarily in the Middle East, Islam is a religion. contrary to what people think.  It's like saying Christianity is a race.


----------



## MionissNio (Mar 23, 2017)

Guys, I will try my best to ensure no Muslim gets radicalised whomever I know! If words don't matter then I'll give them a taste of their own ideals.

I feel really bad for the victims my condolences to them and their loved ones.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

yeah I did not say every thing, because it would be far to long, but anyway I do it now. racism, sexism, islamicphobes, homophob, biphob, christianphobic, [insertanything]phobic,


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

GamingAori said:


> yeah I did not say every thing, because it would be far to long, but anyway I do it now. racism, sexism, islamicphobes, homophob, biphob, christianphobic, [insertanything]phobic,



People can be any kind of phobic today, political correctness needs to die however. Phobia comes from the Greek, _phobos_, which means fear.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> Well, you did say this,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, in France, Clinton would almost being called far-right-wing. But I suppose I've been a bit excessive. Yet this doesn't excuse xhat some people are saying. And Racism is used as a general word in this case, a synonym to xenophobia, etc. Still, that's discrimination. And I call bullshit, the word race can't be used for humans.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> People can be any kind of phobic today, political correctness needs to die however. Phobia comes from the Greek, _phobos_, which means fear.


I know, but we do not use phobia in for example homophob as a description of fear.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Man, in France, Clinton would almost being called far-right-wing. But I suppose I've been a bit excessive. Yet this doesn't excuse xhat some people are saying. And Racism is used as a general word in this case, a synonym to xenophobia, etc. Still, that's discrimination. And I call bullshit, the word race can't be used for humans.



Islam is a religious group of people, not a race. Arabic/Arab is a race, big difference. And I though liberal-thinking people were supposed to be tolerant, respecting the opinions of others, but all get up in their underwear whenever their opinions aren't the same as theirs. I've been trying to do my damnedest at being neutral and respectful, I guess that too is a big effing waste of time on here.  Why do I even bother trying to be neutral and levelheaded? *Sigh*



GamingAori said:


> I know, but we do not use phobia in for example homophob as a description of fear.



It is also interchangeable with the word hate. Like say Spheksophobia, the fear or hatred/aversion to wasps and hornets. But people who don't agree with the thinking should not be labeled as such as that is hardly a fair assumption, not agreeing with something is not tantamount to hatred.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> it's always the same bullshit commited by the same people
> why the left tries to protect these people and cover their actions is beyond me
> you would have expected europe to have learned their lesson by now


We do not protect the terrorists, we protect muslims from being generalized. and I though european people learned from extreme right wing politics by now, but it does not look like that.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> it's always the same bullshit commited by the same people
> why the left tries to protect these people and cover their actions is beyond me
> you would have expected europe to have learned their lesson by now



If by 'these people' you mean terrorists, France already sent planes to bomb ISIS.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

Just for the record, not agreeing with something or someone != hatred, just setting things straight. Like say with certain opinions or the like, doesn't equal hatred, though the PC world would like to make up some bull crap reason why.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> The problem I have with countries where Islam is prominent, is that they are far too tolerant with radical Islam.
> 
> They allow radical Islamic terrorist to occupy hospitals or schools.
> 
> ...


That the countries does not do a lot of things right is not questionable at all, but they are dictators and it's not the islam fault. so saying every muslim = terrorist is just wrong, but a lot of people think that way.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> Just for the record, not agreeing with something or someone != hatred, just setting things straight.


Saying that Muslims should be deported to Middle-East and that Islam is cancer is hatred.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Saying that Muslims should be deported to Middle-East and that Islam is cancer is hatred.



And I never said that, did I? No, I didn't. But not agreeing with opinions or political views somehow makes it hatred in this crazy world. People should respect political opinions, or be neutral and not constantly at each other's throats, like say one party vs another, people should learn to disagree and move on.  Anyways, this is getting nowhere. I hate politics, politics in general, are a bane on the internet. Excuse me while I curl up and cry. 

C'est la vie.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

GamingAori said:


> We do not protect the terrorists, we protect muslims from being generalized. and I though european people learned from extreme right wing politics by now, but it does not look like that.



Then why is Israel forced to fire a missile at a hospital or school occupied by radical Islamic terrorists?

Think about that for a second, hospitals or schools are OCCUPIED by radical Islamic terrorist in some of those countries.

Let that sink in! To an American, this sounds crazy, there would be a revolt if our government couldn't stop that from happening!


----------



## aljpn91 (Mar 23, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> And I never said that, did I? No, I didn't. But not agreeing with opinions or political views somehow makes it hatred in this crazy world. People should respect political opinions, or be neutral and not constantly at each other's throats, like say one party vs another, people should learn to disagree and move on.  Anyways, this is getting nowhere. I hate politics, politics in general, are a bane on the internet. Excuse me while I curl up and cry.
> 
> C'est la vie.



i think he was talking about me lol


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> i think he was talking about me lol



But he quoted me though, so....IDFK


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 23, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> But he quoted me though, so....IDFK


I was talking about him, because of your remark about Disagreement != Hatred.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> I was talking about him, because of your remark about Disagreement != Hatred.


IDFK why I even bother trying to neutral in these discussions, it's a lost cause. I'm fucking done with politics.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Then why is Israel forced to fire a missile at a hospital or school occupied by radical Islamic terrorists?
> 
> Think about that for a second, hospitals or schools are OCCUPIED by radical Islamic terrorist in some of those countries.
> 
> Let that sink in! To an American, this sounds crazy, there would be a revolt if our government couldn't stop that from happening!


tbh I never read about this situation so I do not have an opinion about it, but the most islamic countries are bad in a lot of ways, so I do NOT protect them, but I do protect the muslims who lifes a normal life and are ashamed of the terrorists. I now a lot of muslims and they all hate this countries, the ISIS etc, so the majority of muslims needed to be protected and accepted.
btw the most people which the ISIS kill are other islams, just think about it. how can this be good islamicpeople when they kill people of their own religion? they are just idiots, like terrorists in general.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> IDFK why I even bother trying to neutral in these discussions, it's a lost cause. I'm fucking done with politics.



Its because people get too defensive. If I say I hope La Penn wins, they'll say its because of Islamophobia.

A radicalized Islamic terrorist just killed 4 innocent people in the UK. You are damn right I have phobia of radical Islam!


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

I think everyone hate radicals, but what a lot of people forget is that radicalislamic people are a really small minority. or that rightradical/leftradicals are a really small minority of german people for example.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Its because people get too defensive. If I say I hope La Penn wins, they'll say its because of Islamophobia.
> 
> A radicalized Islamic terrorist just killed 4 innocent people in the UK. You are damn right I have phobia of radical Islam!



And I suddenly feel like throwing up over politics, I need a long break   I'm sorry


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

GamingAori said:


> I think everyone hate radicals, but what a lot of people forget is that radicalislamic people are a really small minority. or that rightradical/leftradicals are a really small minority of german people for example.



I know and I do believe the vast majority of muslims are good people. I feel bad that these nut jobs falsely use their faith to commit these atrocities.

The thing that is frustrating to me is that a lot of these nationals radicalized were on the surveillance program from their countries (e.g. the Boston marathon brothers). Yet the government stood by and did nothing. A lot of it is due to the PC bull crap going on right now.

Heck our former president was scared to say "Radical Islamic Terrorist", why? That doesn't mean you hate Islam.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> I know and I do believe the vast majority of muslims are good people. I feel bad that these nut jobs falsely use their faith to commit these atrocities.
> 
> The thing that is frustrating to me is that a lot of these nationals radicalized were on the surveillance program from their countries (e.g. the Boston marathon brothers). Yet the government stood by and did nothing. A lot of it is due to the PC bull crap going on right now.
> 
> Heck our former president was scared to say "Radical Islamic Terrorist", why? That doesn't mean you hate Islam.


I can understand your frustration, but this has nothing to do with the islam so saying it in the context sounds weird to me. I'm sure that we do not have the same politicalview, but some things we need to do together, being against terrorism, still protecting and accepting the normal friendly muslims etc. We just need to be normal human beings.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Mar 23, 2017)

Europe is under attack and yet European countries just keep on allowing in more of these so-called 'refugees.' Was this really shocking or surprising that it happened? To be honest, no. It's all just a matter of time as these attacks are planned ahead of time and it's hard to stop them since the govts imported the terror from the Middle-East. Like, seriously, how much more evidence is it needed to realise that the majority of these 'refugees' are being imported to Europe to cause chaos, destruction and turn European countries into Arabian? Come on!

Canada itself is on its way to become the way that is Sweden, sigh.

A real refugee who had good intentions but realised that the other 'refugees' are going to ruin the country that accepted them, so he just went back. An actual good guy.



Here's a bunch of ungratefuls complaining that the internet is slow, no money to smoke, room without windows, cold food, etc.



The so-called "refugee children":



Canada:



An American has become pretty disgusted by the situation happening in US, too.



For those that have travelled between (Iberian countries) Portugal-France via the highway are well aware that there are no boarder controls and so anyone can ditch one country to another and so on. This is pathetic and extremely incompetent - Control boarders are a necessity!


----------



## mightymuffy (Mar 23, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> For those that have travelled between (Iberian countries) Portugal-France via the highway are well aware that there are no boarder controls and so anyone can ditch one country to another and so on. This is pathetic and extremely incompetent - Control boarders are a necessity!


 - Well aye, but it's them skiers you want controlling the most, fuckers them men....

Y'know, I'm British born, but my parents are Irish.... also they're Roman Catholic.... now back when the IRA were bombing the place in the 80s/90s I don't recall the general public trying to extradite us anytime. Seemed to me that instead of being so quickly offended-cum-generalising to those atrocities, they simply knew they were actually the work of a select few extremist tossers - what's happened to us all in the years since?


----------



## MionissNio (Mar 23, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Europe is under attack and yet European countries just keep on allowing in more of these so-called 'refugees.' Was this really shocking or surprising that it happened? To be honest, no. It's all just a matter of time as these attacks are planned ahead of time and it's hard to stop them since the govts imported the terror from the Middle-East. Like, seriously, how much more evidence is it needed to realise that the majority of these 'refugees' are being imported to Europe to cause chaos, destruction and turn European countries into Arabian? Come on!
> 
> Canada itself is on its way to become the way that is Sweden, sigh.
> 
> ...




I really think there is a refugee crisis they should definitely stricken the rules personally. And why does no fucking Muslim country accept refugee or better why does no fucking refugee want to go.tommuslim country' where there homies at.amiright?


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Europe is under attack and yet European countries just keep on allowing in more of these so-called 'refugees.' Was this really shocking or surprising that it happened? To be honest, no. It's all just a matter of time as these attacks are planned ahead of time and it's hard to stop them since the govts imported the terror from the Middle-East. Like, seriously, how much more evidence is it needed to realise that the majority of these 'refugees' are being imported to Europe to cause chaos, destruction and turn European countries into Arabian? Come on!
> For those that have travelled between (Iberian countries) Portugal-France via the highway are well aware that there are no boarder controls and so anyone can ditch one country to another and so on. This is pathetic and extremely incompetent - Control boarders are a necessity!


Check your facts ... srsly the terrorist of the UK was not a refugee, the in berlin neither or the in munich. In munich was it a nazi when did you complaint about criminal nazis? And what do we want do against them? hm the populist politicians do not have any idea so you also haven't one. the interesting thing here in germany we do have more problems with rightextremeterrorism then with islamicterrorism. how do you want explain that? and nice cherry picked videos...


mightymuffy said:


> - Well aye, but it's them skiers you want controlling the most, fuckers them men....
> 
> Y'know, I'm British born, but my parents are Irish.... also they're Roman Catholic.... now back when the IRA were bombing the place in the 80s/90s I don't recall the general public trying to extradite us anytime. Seemed to me that instead of being so quickly offended-cum-generalising to those atrocities, they simply knew they were actually the work of a select few extremist tossers - what's happened to us all in the years since?


sadly, when the berlinwall fall the media said the same thing about the other german people. so it does not changed a lot.



MionissNio said:


> I really think there is a refugee crisis they should definitely stricken the rules personally. And why does no fucking Muslim country accept refugee or better why does no fucking refugee want to go.tommuslim country' where there homies at.amiright?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population you are absolutly wrong. http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...-largest-number-of-refugees-in-the-world.html


----------



## DrkBeam (Mar 23, 2017)

I didn't read all the comments, but how the topic escalate to stop the refugees enter to the country, anyway that bad thing happened, but there weren't a lot of deads, is the beauty and bad thing of the government they don't follow a random group of of minority on the internet


----------



## A7MAD (Mar 23, 2017)

This is a truly sad state of affair, I hope the man who did this is tried to the full extent of the law.

May those affected recover quickly and the ones who passed away rest in peace.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Mar 23, 2017)

GamingAori said:


> not a refugee


'Refugee' is a term used very loosely. It doesn't genuinely means what it used to. It's like saying immigrant.


----------



## Joe88 (Mar 23, 2017)

Step 1: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/23/westminster-attack-cartoonists-give-take-london-tragedy/
Step 2: (nothing filtered out, yet...)
Step 3: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39363945
Step 4: http://time.com/4710483/eiffel-tower-dark-london-attacks/
Step 5: http://www.dw.com/en/london-honors-victims-with-candlelight-vigil/a-38098898
Step 6: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/23/london-terror-attack-richard-branson-isis-refugees.html
Step 7: http://www.presstv.ir/Detail/2017/03/18/514848/UK-London-protest-Islamophobia-racism
https://www.thelocal.fr/20170323/who-are-the-eight-million-voters-expected-to-back-le-pen
http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017...ing-threat-of-alt-right-jane-austen-devotees/
Step 8: ?


----------



## el_gonz87 (Mar 23, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> Step 1: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/23/westminster-attack-cartoonists-give-take-london-tragedy/
> Step 2: (nothing filtered out, yet...)
> Step 3: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39363945
> Step 4: http://time.com/4710483/eiffel-tower-dark-london-attacks/
> ...



LOL so fucking true


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Mar 23, 2017)

Retroboy said:


> one thing i hate is that people are quick to blame the muslim community, when it is not the muslim community its the extremists that want to force their religion/beliefs onto the world.


Who are these ominous extremists? What is their ideology or belief system? 
Extrem is just an adjective for describing intensity. If Islam was a religion of peace, Islamic extremists would be extremely peaceful. 
Extremism is no group! There are extreme Buddhists who don't go out without waggling a broom in front of them to insure they don't accidently step on an insect. Radical Muslims are part of the Muslim community.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Who are these ominous extremists? What is their ideology or belief system?
> Extrem is just an adjective for describing intensity. If Islam was a religion of peace, Islamic extremists would be extremely peaceful.
> Extremism is no group! There are extreme Buddhists who don't go out without waggling a broom in front of them to insure they don't accidently step on an insect. Radical Muslims are part of the Muslim community.


hm now I'm scared because extreme christians exist  and yeah they are terrorists for example boko haram. and yeah also extreme terrorist buddhism exist: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32929855 . rly inform you guys ...


----------



## Lucifer666 (Mar 23, 2017)

I live in London and this is scary as shit, was about 15 mins away from where I am 5 days a week. Thoughts go out to the victims and their close ones.

I'm also Muslim born and raised (but non-practising/non-believing atm) and can't fucking stand that there's already anti-immigration sentiments flowing around.

A non-white criminal being used to justify tightening borders hardly makes any sense. London isn't very white anymore, and not every criminal will be as a result.
Muslims aren't coming in under some magical assumption that their crime stats are nonexistent or somehow much more impressive than white folks, so people need to stop projecting their horror of the crime onto the race of the assailant. Not to mention there's currently no reason to bring any interpretation of Islam as a motive, since nothing suggests this.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

GamingAori said:


> hm now I'm scared because extreme christians exist  and yeah they are terrorists for example boko haram. and yeah also extreme terrorist buddhism exist: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32929855 . rly inform you guys ...


Of course, since the crusades till this day.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Mar 23, 2017)

Why do these idiots always attack civilians and never government officials? One would think that would be more effective.


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Of course, since the crusades till this day.


I wanted to say with that when we use the minority as an excuse to say all are bad, the religion is bad but at the same time the biggest religion of european countries do the same but this is a "friendly" religion. this just doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Lucifer666 (Mar 23, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Who are these ominous extremists? What is their ideology or belief system?
> Extrem is just an adjective for describing intensity. If Islam was a religion of peace, Islamic extremists would be extremely peaceful.
> Extremism is no group! There are extreme Buddhists who don't go out without waggling a broom in front of them to insure they don't accidently step on an insect. Radical Muslims are part of the Muslim community.


That literally makes no sense

I know it might be hard to believe, but practising a 'religion of peace' unfortunately doesn't stop someone from committing a crime. Likewise, it has no bearing on what makes someone a killer, it's simply motive for someone who is already homicidal. Criminals and scumbags manifest themselves in all parts of the world and they'll need to use SOMEthing to back up their actions.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

But it makes for an easy label.
People love to put labels into things they don't completely grasp.
It helps them create an external enemy and label it all the same, so they feel more in peace.
If it were something unknown, like any random people, you can't take mind easing measures.
But if you can put an easy label, like "muslims", or "black people", or "immigrants", or "jews", or whatever, that makes it easy, it allows you to think "they are the problem" and eases your mind, you know your "enemy", whatever the label, it doesn't matter if it is true.

Tribal behaviour 101.


----------



## aljpn91 (Mar 23, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> But it makes for an easy label.
> People love to put labels into things they don't completely grasp.
> It helps them create an external enemy and label it all the same, so they feel more in peace.
> If it were something unknown, like any random people, you can't take mind easing measures.
> But if you can put an easy label, like "muslims", or "black people", or "immigrants", or "jews", or whatever, that makes it easy, it allows you to think "they are the problem" and eases your mind, you know your "enemy", whatever the label, it doesn't matter if it is a true.



but it wasn't "something unknown, like any random people"
all these attacks have something in common
if you haven't seen the pattern already, then allah have mercy on your soul


----------



## GamingAori (Mar 23, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> But it makes for an easy label.
> People love to put labels into things they don't completely grasp.
> It helps them create an external enemy and label it all the same, so they feel more in peace.
> If it were something unknown, like any random people, you can't take mind easing measures.
> ...


sadly that is still the case, I mean today we can inform us easily, but people still trust everything. fake news are a big threat for example: a muslim attacked and raped a 12 year old german girl, this never happened in the near of my lifing place, but a lot of people shared it on facebook and the most people though it was true. the weird thing is only some right wing facebook sites reported it, but yeah it was compatible with that label so why not?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



aljpn91 said:


> but it wasn't "something unknown, like any random people"
> all these attacks have something in common
> if you haven't seen the pattern already, then you're just fooling yourself


yeah the most terrorists are male, now I know that I will never trust male again /s


----------



## sarkwalvein (Mar 23, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> islam is peace. islam is lovel. all together now
> 
> 
> but it wasn't "something unknown, like any random people"
> ...


Of course, you make it to have something in common. That is the technique, when they don't, like that attack in Canada some time ago, first you instantly make you believe it is part of the same label, then you just try to erase it from your mind to keep the label you made up homogenous.
It is a great mechanic of the human species. Like in the middle ages, all those misfortunes that of course were caused by witches, they all had that in common, so witches had to go to the stake. In that time it all seemed an unavoidable truth.


----------



## Joe88 (Mar 23, 2017)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4342446/Man-arrested-trying-drive-car-crowd.html

Another attempted islamic extremist car ramming attack today in belgium, car was filled with high power guns and other weapons.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Mar 23, 2017)

Subtle Demise said:


> Why do these idiots always attack civilians and never government officials? One would think that would be more effective.


 I know, if these idiots truly have some grievance with some policy that a politician made, then take it out on them, not the little old man with no money who has to walk to the shop because he can't afford a car, or the mum going to pick up her children from school,

Do they really think the elites and politicians give 2 craps if a few people get killed, the bodies weren't even cold and you had politicians whining that they were delayed and held up for hours and how they need more security for poor them

Ps I don't actually think anyone should be hurt in any way, just pointing out how retarded the idiots doing this stuff are, if they dislike stuff so much and want to die, then they should go do it to themselves and not inflict any of their mindless misery on others


----------



## GhostLatte (Mar 23, 2017)

Just remember that not all terrorists are Muslim and not all refugees are Muslim. The Irish were considered to be refugees when escaping the Great Famine.


----------



## aljpn91 (Mar 23, 2017)

GhostLatte said:


> Just remember that not all terrorists are Muslim and not all refugees are Muslim. The Irish were considered to be refugees when escaping the Great Famine.



what time do you live in mate? are you some kind of time traveler?
how about "not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim"


----------



## GhostLatte (Mar 24, 2017)

aljpn91 said:


> what time do you live in mate? are you some kind of time traveler?
> how about "not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslim"


According to your logic, Dylann Roof and James Holmes aren't terrorists?


----------



## aljpn91 (Mar 24, 2017)

you need terrorism to fight terrorism

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



GhostLatte said:


> According to your logic, Dylann Roof and James Holmes aren't terrorists?


 sure, you can call them that. breivik qualifies as such too


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Mar 24, 2017)

GamingAori said:


> hm now I'm scared because extreme christians exist  and yeah they are terrorists for example boko haram. and yeah also extreme terrorist buddhism exist: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32929855 . rly inform you guys ...


Boko Haram is Islamic! Boko=books/education Haram=forbidden.
So you are really afraid of extreme Christians blowing themselves up next to you or beheading you for saying something against Jesus?
Yeah right.

Also the your BBC link says nothing about suicide bombings etc in other countries. I'm a selfish person: As long as the Buddhists of Myanmar don't kill people in the streets of the whole world and in my country, I don't care that much. It's pathetic you need to make these comparisons to defend Muslims/your faith. Your link even says "Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion."

BTW the word "radical" comes from radix = roots (Latin). The roots of Buddhism = Buddha, the roots of Christianity = Jesus, the roots of Islam = Mohammad. Therefore every reformation attempt will fail unless we paint Mohammad as a peaceful man (which he wasn't since the beginning of the Islamic period, i.e. Medina).


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Mar 24, 2017)

Lucifer666 said:


> That literally makes no sense
> 
> I know it might be hard to believe, but practising a 'religion of peace' unfortunately doesn't stop someone from committing a crime. Likewise, it has no bearing on what makes someone a killer, it's simply motive for someone who is already homicidal. Criminals and scumbags manifest themselves in all parts of the world and they'll need to use SOMEthing to back up their actions.



What I said makes sense. 
The mantra Islam has nothing to do with Islamism makes no sense. It's like saying alcohol has nothing to do with alcoholism or race nothing racism or sexism nothing to do with sex/gender.

Of course there are bad people in every religious community. But it literally makes no sense to claim that somebody always wanted to blow himself up and uses Islam as an excuse. No, he was motivated by Islamic teachings of paradise/martyrdom.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


----------



## Lucifer666 (Mar 24, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> What I said makes sense.
> The mantra Islam has nothing to do with Islamism makes no sense. It's like saying alcohol has nothing to do with alcoholism or race nothing racism or sexism nothing to do with sex/gender.
> 
> Of course there are bad people in every religious community. But it literally makes no sense to claim that somebody always wanted to blow himself up and uses Islam as an excuse. No, he was motivated by Islamic teachings of paradise/martyrdom.
> ...


It's not that they "always wanted to blow themselves up", it's that they are unstable in the first place and religion is an easy target to **** with and use as a half-assed justification

I'm just tired of non-muslims acting like they understand our society better than we do. I agree with your point, but my point is that the Islam discourse is currently not applicable. We legit don't know anything about what went down here in London, and why I'm already hearing Islamophobic crap without reason already is honestly beyond me!


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 24, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> What I said makes sense.
> The mantra Islam has nothing to do with Islamism makes no sense. It's like saying alcohol has nothing to do with alcoholism or race nothing racism or sexism nothing to do with sex/gender.
> 
> Of course there are bad people in every religious community. But it literally makes no sense to claim that somebody always wanted to blow himself up and uses Islam as an excuse. No, he was motivated by Islamic teachings of paradise/martyrdom.



Thing is, there are such 'teachings' in all monotheist religions. And please, Muhammad isn't even the only prophet in Islam. If you did know Islam you would know that Quran also tells about Jesus, Moses etc. And that you can find in Quran the exact opposite of Jihadism. Anybody could take random violent sentences in Torah or New Testament or whatever and build a Christian pendant of Jihadism from scratch. And the problem is that you think terrorists etc. are Muslim in the first place, and that's a huge mistake. In France, young 'radicalized Muslims' who go blow themselves up in Syria are at 50% not Muslims in the first place. There are fragile atheist, Jews, Christians who get convinced by nasty people to convert themselves to what they are taught is Islam and fall in Jihadism.


----------



## Lucifer666 (Mar 24, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Thing is, there are such 'teachings' in all monotheist religions. And please, Muhammad isn't even the only prophet in Islam. If you did know Islam you would know that Quran also tells about Jesus, Moses etc. And that you can find in Quran the exact opposite of Jihadism. Anybody could take random violent sentences in Torah or New Testament or whatever and build a Christian pendant of Jihadism from scratch. And the problem is that you think terrorists etc. are Muslim in the first place, and that's a huge mistake. In France, young 'radicalized Muslims' who go blow themselves up in Syria are at 50% not Muslims in the first place. There are fragile atheist, Jews, Christians who get convinced by nasty people to convert themselves to what they are taught is Islam and fall in Jihadism.


Most informed comment I've seen on this thread.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Mar 27, 2017)

Oh, just a funny fact. The author of London attacks was converted to 'Islam'.


----------



## Deleted member 408979 (Mar 27, 2017)

DinohScene said:


> Welcome to Europe where terrorist attacks are completely normal.
> 
> This won't end until there has been many more attacks and thousands of innocent lives have been taken unfortunately.




darlin, i wish it was the end.

They won't stop until they get what they want:

Thats why narco is still running wild here.

And thats why there will be more attacks, sadly.


----------



## vinstage (Mar 29, 2017)

kingraa777 said:


> jesus im from brighton right next to london :/


I'm late but, I'm fairly sure Brighton isn't near London. Let alone "right next to" London.

I'm pretty sure you have Hove, Hastings, Bexhill, Polesgate and more between London and Brighton...


----------



## kingraa777 (Mar 29, 2017)

dont forget burgis hill hassocks ect ect ect lol its still near london how the hell is it not ? ok not exactly right next to london i take that back .


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 16, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Thing is, there are such 'teachings' in all monotheist religions. And please, Muhammad isn't even the only prophet in Islam. If you did know Islam you would know that Quran also tells about Jesus, Moses etc. And that you can find in Quran the exact opposite of Jihadism. Anybody could take random violent sentences in Torah or New Testament or whatever and build a Christian pendant of Jihadism from scratch. And the problem is that you think terrorists etc. are Muslim in the first place, and that's a huge mistake. In France, young 'radicalized Muslims' who go blow themselves up in Syria are at 50% not Muslims in the first place. There are fragile atheist, Jews, Christians who get convinced by nasty people to convert themselves to what they are taught is Islam and fall in Jihadism.



Sorry if this thread is too old but I just noticed your response. Let me comment on a few things:
1) You use the word Islamophobia. I find it funny how in Paris after the terror attacks people went to the streets demonstrating that they are not afraid, people said they need to be united, they are against Islamophobia blabla. Then all of a sudden there is a suspicious noise and EVERYONE keeps running like a herd of sheep from a few wolves. That's pathetic. Every time I see terror attacks on the news I sarcastically say "Look at these Islamophobes running away. Don't they know Islam is a religion of peace?"

2) You claim I don't know about Islam. Actually I read the Quran several times, as well as significant portions of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, as well as common commentators like Ibn Kathir. What about you? I didn't read in Arabic but there are good websites with word by word translations, explanation of grammar etc. I know about the differences between translations (which one is more exact etc) and if I want to know about a specific phrase, I don't shy away from checking and comparing up to 10 translations in different languages.

3) You say that "such teachings" can be found in all monotheistic religion. Yes and no. I'm not here to defend other religions. In a way you are right, all monotheistic religions have a tendency to exclude members of other religious, show intolerance and have a history of or a fantasy about violence. Not sure about Zoroastrians (traditional Persian religion) but they are irrelevant today anyway.

BUT Islam is unique. Martyrdom in Christianity meant (and means today in African / Middle Eastern countries) to die for your faith. E.g. Muslims catch you and hold a knife to your head. Will you deny Christ? According to the New Testament, you should not. You get killed for "his glory" and go to heaven.
Roughly 600 years later the Quran comes along and says "They fight in the name of Allah, they slay and are slain" (+ various sayings by Muhammad e.g. that he would love to die in Jihad, be resurrected and die in Jihad again and so on). -> Killing and being killed for your faith. The Quran even allows its followers to deny being a Muslim in a dangerous situation (which is smart).
Christian history adopted the "killing for your faith" idea during the crusades (which by the way was a pathetic counter attack after hundreds of years of losing territory to the Muslims, see today's Near East and North Africa), but they have nothing to do with the original founder (be it Jesus or Paul) of the religion. So reforms always have a chance to make Christianity peaceful again. Reforms cannot make Islam peaceful because Islam was violent from the beginning (Islamic time reckoning starts with Medina, i.e. Muhammad gets political/military power). Muhammad: powerful and therefor violent. Jesus/Paul: powerless (and therefore?) peaceful.

4) The only way for Islam to become peaceful is to relativize it. Not surprisingly secular Muslims have less motivation to kill and get killed. For the vast majority of Christians (at least in the west) the thought of dying for Christ by not denying him seems stupid and horrific. Very few Christians would actually go out and leave their family and property to live a life as a poor wandering missionary - even though that's what Christ taught and how Jesus/Paul lived! Similarly most Muslims actually prefer THIS life.

5) Which brings me to converts: As you correctly stated, many radical Muslims have become radical only a few years/months/weeks before dying for their faith. That's natural! Converts in all religions feel like they have to prove themselves.

As for those who had been "bad Muslims" before (i.e. drinking alcohol, partying etc): Once they get radicalized they realize how much bad deeds they have collected. They don't know if they can make it to heaven even if they become very devote from now on. Some are so desperate that they die in Jihad as it is a guaranteed ticket to paradise.
-> So yes, Islam has a lot to do with it. People who love this life (e.g. rich people) have less incentive/motivation to die for their faith but without the Islamic belief (which I just mentioned) people don't become suicide bombers. Do you know how many poor Hindus there are in India? How many poor Buddhists all over South-East Asia? How come they are not constantly in the news because they blew themselves up? Social exclusion is only one piece of the puzzle - albeit it an important one. The other one is Islam.

Looking forward to your response.


----------



## SahierKHLover (Apr 16, 2017)

...what the shit is wrong with you ppl I thought this thread was archived what the shit looking at this thread makes me want to fight someone irl STOP BRING THIS THREAD TO LIFE AND LET IT FREAKIN DIE FOR GOD'S SAKE WTH... I am done with this bs no matter what I try to do nobody on this dang site is going to change their freakin mind bc that is what they think is right and I learned that the hard way... ppl won't change unless SOMEONE changes their heart and we humans cannot do that so we wont try if they themselves are not interested so some mod or dev or who ever the hell just lock this thread it is probably giving cancer to everyone who reads this


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 16, 2017)

We could also just rename this thread as "terror attacks". The topic keeps being up to date.

You say you want the topic to be closed and that it give you cancer. Could it be that you can't accept a different view from your own? You just clicked on the like button for some posts you agree with. Then you read mine and couldn't handle it (?) You know who else censores criticism of Islam? The Sharia and most Islamic countries.
Just a thought.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 16, 2017)

Islamophobia =/= mob mentality panic, nor vice versa. It is rational to want to run away from an explosion. It is irrational to fear that the dark-skinned guy in the turban a few paces behind you is going to be the cause of one


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 16, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Islamophobia =/= mob mentality panic, nor vice versa. It is rational to want to run away from an explosion. It is irrational to fear that the dark-skinned guy in the turban a few paces behind you is going to be the cause of one


If this were the definition of Islamophobia, I'd agree with you. 
Sadly, Islamophobia = any criticism of Islam or Muhammad. That's how I perceive it.
Islam is not a race btw. I'm just as scared of a Sharia supporting white guy as an Arabic person. And yes, I'm scared of the Sharia. Does this make me phobic? Depends on the definition of phobia.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 16, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> If this were the definition of Islamophobia, I'd agree with you.
> Sadly, Islamophobia = any criticism of Islam or Muhammad. That's how I perceive it.
> Islam is not a race btw. I'm just as scared of a Sharia supporting white guy as an Arabic person. And yes, I'm scared of the Sharia. Does this make me phobic? Depends on the definition of phobia.


I think everyone should be wary of Sharia law. Keep in mind though that that means governed by religion, so one could say that some of the right wing politicians here are inadvertently supporting their own version of it


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 16, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I think everyone should be wary of Sharia law. Keep in mind though that that means governed by religion, so one could say that some of the right wing politicians here are inadvertently supporting their own version of it



And please keep in mind that Islam includes a spiritual AND political dimension. Christianity was born in total political impotence (Jesus had no power at all, nor had the first generations of Christians until Constantine in the 4th century). Religion and political power always leads to trouble. 
Ironically the western countries have always (since right before the Afghan-Soviet war) supported the radical Muslims over the secular ones. You remove a secular dictator and you get religious wars and persecution of minorities.
Did you know that Iran had a secular democratically elected president in the 50s? USA didn't like him -> gone -> US puppet was finally overthrown by radicals (called Iranian revolution).


----------



## chrisrlink (Apr 16, 2017)

what i did was wrong i reverted to islam for the sake of marrying (or was going to) my best friend  but in itself oddly it nearly radicalized me in the way of anger and disowning my entire family (that was on top of mental issues) I'm aitheist once again but that time with my ex put a huge strain on my family they saw what she was doing to me and i dismissed their claims though my hatred for trump and the republicans remain (for obvious reasons) I patched up with my loved ones and what does my ex do start looking for the next idiot to manipulate i mean marry


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 16, 2017)

How can someone manipulate a person into believing sth? I only believe things I find convincing. I'd like to understand it. Did she - in your case - appeal to your identity?


----------



## Vipera (Apr 16, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Sorry if this thread is too old but I just noticed your response. Let me comment on a few things:
> 1) You use the word Islamophobia. I find it funny how in Paris after the terror attacks people went to the streets demonstrating that they are not afraid, people said they need to be united, they are against Islamophobia blabla. Then all of a sudden there is a suspicious noise and EVERYONE keeps running like a herd of sheep from a few wolves. That's pathetic. Every time I see terror attacks on the news I sarcastically say "Look at these Islamophobes running away. Don't they know Islam is a religion of peace?"
> 
> 2) You claim I don't know about Islam. Actually I read the Quran several times, as well as significant portions of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, as well as common commentators like Ibn Kathir. What about you? I didn't read in Arabic but there are good websites with word by word translations, explanation of grammar etc. I know about the differences between translations (which one is more exact etc) and if I want to know about a specific phrase, I don't shy away from checking and comparing up to 10 translations in different languages.
> ...


Thank you for bringing a thoughtful post in a thread so far dominated by kids who have never tasted real life. It's always easy to say that everyone is good and whoever disagrees is a bigot.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


----------



## SahierKHLover (Apr 16, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> We could also just rename this thread as "terror attacks". The topic keeps being up to date.
> 
> You say you want the topic to be closed and that it give you cancer. Could it be that you can't accept a different view from your own? You just clicked on the like button for some posts you agree with. Then you read mine and couldn't handle it (?) You know who else censores criticism of Islam? The Sharia and most Islamic countries.
> Just a thought.


... I am Muslim... I fought these guys... it didn't go well..


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 16, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Did you know that Iran had a secular democratically elected president in the 50s? USA didn't like him -> gone -> US puppet was finally overthrown by radicals (called Iranian revolution).


I'm fully aware of that and it pisses me off, considering the US basically created the current middle eastern conditions but no one here wants to acknowledge that, let alone try mend it in a way that doesn't involve heavy artillery

Oil is cool :T


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 16, 2017)

SahierKHLover said:


> ... I am Muslim... I fought these guys... it didn't go well..


You fought whom? So you are not in favor of the Sharia?


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 16, 2017)

Religion, Idiocy and misunderstanding comes into one.
What comes out of it? Oh, terrorist, blind killing because religion told them to, suicide bombing, religion raiding etc.

Well, my word on this topic? That terrorists should use their brain, not machinery.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Apr 16, 2017)

@UltraDolphinRevolution Thank you for your very good answer! Actually, thing is that a lot of Muslims actually also 'relativize' Islam. In Morocco, from where my parents come, Islam is just part of the tradition. Going to the mosque is part of everyone's routine, like the traditional work&sleep. Like the Ramadan. People do it because it's a habit, not really because of religious reasons. And a lot of people seem to forget this. In Morocco, a random farmer or worker or anything will always be kind, and they just don't care about if you're Jew, Catholic or Atheist. They'll say you the almost-mandatory welcome sentences, and even bless you in the name of Allah, but that doesn't mean they want you to be a Muslim, that only means they want the best for you. King of Morocco recently even pronounced a speech where he says that everyone of any beliefs should leave in peace, and you'll not find anyone in the country who disagrees. But thing is, next to Morocco there is Saudi Arabia, Iran & co, who give a bad reputation to Muslims by their dumbness.


----------



## SahierKHLover (Apr 16, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You fought whom? So you are not in favor of the Sharia?


no you dingus I mean these people not the sharia wth is wrong with you


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 17, 2017)

So what do you mean by fighting them? You oppose people who are in favor of the Sharia? It is a common problem for Muslims. They like western judicial systems but when you ask them whether they would rather have Sharia law, a lot of them actually confirm it. If you really think Sharia law is divine, of course you are "forced" to be in favor of it. That would include killing someone like me for apparently offending Islam.
Many so-called moderate Muslims actually would agree with laws like this. Apparently more than 1/4 of British Muslims showed sympathy with the Charlie Hebdo terrorists (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html).
The actual number of people might be higher. I sure wouldn't answer truthfully in a poll like this.

Christians have an excuse because - as I said - Jesus had no political power so he is reported to have said "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and that his kingdom is not from this earth. Christianity was never meant to rule (at least not if you go back to the origins). Jews have "relativized" their divine laws hundreds if not thousands of years ago. E.g. the eye-for-an-eye aspect was actually replaced by money-transfers in real life.


----------



## SahierKHLover (Apr 17, 2017)

oh shit I thought you were muslim defending Islam shit well here it goes again I am in favor with the sharia of course but the laws about beheading and killing and such only happened back then and there are certain situations for anyone to be able to commits these "acts" and no one on this Earth have committed those acts that would cause the war part of Islam to be in play. I got angered by a racist comment one day and I vented out on here and I fought to protect my religion and guess what read the middle of surah taubah and the ending of surah taubah and then read surah nisa and rahman so many surahs that obviously shows that most of this is true and that some of these revelations were meant for that time and later on changed.


----------



## Vipera (Apr 19, 2017)

SahierKHLover said:


> oh shit I thought you were muslim defending Islam shit well here it goes again I am in favor with the sharia of course but the laws about beheading and killing and such only happened back then and there are certain situations for anyone to be able to commits these "acts" and no one on this Earth have committed those acts that would cause the war part of Islam to be in play. I got angered by a racist comment one day and I vented out on here and I fought to protect my religion and guess what read the middle of surah taubah and the ending of surah taubah and then read surah nisa and rahman so many surahs that obviously shows that most of this is true and that some of these revelations were meant for that time and later on changed.


You have lost all credibility after you said you are in favor of a law that lets adults marry kids and stone people to death. ISIS beheading people is only the tip of the iceberg.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 19, 2017)

Vipera said:


> You have lost all credibility after you said you are in favor of a law that lets adults marry kids and stone people to death. ISIS beheading people is only the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk




Havent non muslims ever married kids? Havent they too raped women and children. What makes islam so special that other religions can get away with it but islam has to be known for such things that happened hundreds of years ago.

We live in a time and age where rape within muslims countries doesnt happen very often. Not saying it never happens but a sane muslim wouldnt ever do such a thing. But it actually occurs more in western countires and many believe because the women are loose but that is an argument i disagree with most of the time

Oh and before you say ISIS does. Let me inform you of the fact that they arent muslims period


----------



## Minox (Apr 19, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> Havent non muslims ever married kids? Havent they too raped women and children. What makes islam so special that other religions can get away with it but islam has to be known for such things that happened hundreds of years ago.
> 
> We live in a time and age where rape within muslims countries doesnt happen very often. Not saying it never happens but a sane muslim wouldnt ever do such a thing. But it actually occurs more in western countires and many believe because the women are loose but that is an argument i disagree with most of the time
> 
> Oh and before you say ISIS does. Let me inform you of the fact that they arent muslims period


Please do tell what other religion currently encourages people to marry those not of age?


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 19, 2017)

Minox said:


> Please do tell what other religion currently encourages people to marry those not of age?




Not of age varies from culture to culture

But in islam untill the women is capable of having periods she cant get married

and nor can she consumate the marriage untill she is able to physcially have sexual intercourse


here are my sources


https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam(jump to the conditions section)

Also its important to note that in modern day islam most couples dont get married untill at least 18

Not to mention the fact that the start of a womens period can begin at various different ages. Some women can start have them as early as 11 and others start them later

my source:http://m.kidshealth.org/en/kids/menstruation.html?WT.ac=


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 20, 2017)

Minox said:


> Please do tell what other religion currently encourages people to marry those not of age?


Doesn't Hinduism do that? (Or at least at one point in recent history)


----------



## Minox (Apr 20, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> Not of age varies from culture to culture
> 
> But in islam untill the women is capable of having periods she cant get married
> 
> ...


When I said of age I meant married before they become a consenting adult ie something along the lines of 18. Just because someone can get pregnant does not mean they're physically and mentally prepared for such a situation and pregnant children face a much higher mortality rate during childbirth. Children should be allowed to be children and grow up to be adults before they're forced to deal with adult obligations.

I also can't help but to notice that you completely avoided my question about what other religions encourage child marriage.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Doesn't Hinduism do that? (Or at least at one point in recent history)


That does indeed seem to be the case. Supposedly that's been on a sharp decline after marriage for children under the age of 18 was banned in India though so hopefully that is a practice that will end.


----------



## Vipera (Apr 20, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> Havent non muslims ever married kids? Havent they too raped women and children. What makes islam so special that other religions can get away with it but islam has to be known for such things that happened hundreds of years ago.
> 
> We live in a time and age where rape within muslims countries doesnt happen very often. Not saying it never happens but a sane muslim wouldnt ever do such a thing. But it actually occurs more in western countires and many believe because the women are loose but that is an argument i disagree with most of the time
> 
> Oh and before you say ISIS does. Let me inform you of the fact that they arent muslims period


Marrying kids or even "preordering" marriages has been very frowned upon for centuries now. If we look back thousands of years ago then yes, the age of consent was a lot lower, but just because the average life expectation was too. Everyone has always compiled with the law, except Islam. That gets a free pass, apparently.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

Minox said:


> When I said of age I meant married before they become a consenting adult ie something along the lines of 18. Just because someone can get pregnant does not mean they're physically and mentally prepared for such a situation and pregnant children face a much higher mortality rate during childbirth. Children should be allowed to be children and grow up to be adults before they're forced to deal with adult obligations.
> 
> I also can't help but to notice that you completely avoided my question about what other religions encourage child marriage.
> 
> ...



Ah my bad. I assumed you were referring to Islam only. I now little off other religions that do that but like @TotalInsanity4  said i would assume that the Hindu, Seikh and other more eastern and Asian cultures would do such things. I now its messed up and looked down upon now but it was different back then. Now that isnt me trying to justify it but thats just me stating the differences between the two socities

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Vipera said:


> Marrying kids or even "preordering" marriages has been very frowned upon for centuries now. If we look back thousands of years ago then yes, the age of consent was a lot lower, but just because the average life expectation was too. Everyone has always compiled with the law, except Islam. That gets a free pass, apparently.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk




But that no longer happens. Under 18 marriages dont happen but ofcourse there have been cases in recent years of such things. But it isnt only islam since ive heard of the indian culture that seemed to carry out such acts too. Thats not to blame anyone im just stating the differences between the East and West which will always have its problems


----------



## Vipera (Apr 20, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> Ah my bad. I assumed you were referring to Islam only. I now little off other religions that do that but like @TotalInsanity4  said i would assume that the Hindu, Seikh and other more eastern and Asian cultures would do such things. I now its messed up and looked down upon now but it was different back then. Now that isnt me trying to justify it but thats just me stating the differences between the two socities
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Oh yeah?

http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenint...ndinavian-refugee-asylum-centers-despite-ban/

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...h-authorities-approved-of-child-marriage.html

Totally not happening nowadays.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Oh yeah?
> 
> http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenint...ndinavian-refugee-asylum-centers-despite-ban/
> 
> ...




Both are from Swden which i diddnt now did such things but then again Islam wasnt mentioned in either article
What my point is that it isnt as widespread as it would have been in past societies 

It does happen as i admitted in the post you replied to but it isnt widespread and only every year or so does a case pop up on regards to Islam
other religions and cultures also practiced it at some point too lets not forget and some still do as your sources show

All in all its messed up and should be stopped. It isnt the only thing though since there is also another thing which nearly all religions have practised and that is incest. Another act that needs to be banned


----------



## Vipera (Apr 20, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> Both are from Swden which i diddnt now did such things but then again Islam wasnt mentioned in either article
> What my point is that it isnt as widespread as it would have been in past societies
> 
> It does happen as i admitted in the post you replied to but it isnt widespread and only every year or so does a case pop up on regards to Islam
> ...


You mean the act of which is recognised as illegal in many countries and condemned by the bible?

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

Vipera said:


> You mean the act of which is recognised as illegal in many countries and condemned by the bible?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk




Yes the one which is illegal but still happens all over the world.

in the USAhttp://mobile.wnd.com/2016/09/incest-in-america-the-next-taboo-to-fall/

in the uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mum-son-incest-couple-go-7717788

in the middle east http://www.dailyo.in/lifestyle/raks...er-sister-having-sex-incest/story/1/5894.html

Russia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snokhachestvo

China http://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/ar...-incest-teenage-daughter-who-later-gave-birth

So regardless of what religions prohibit it. Incest is a very common thing worldwide or was in the past. In recent years it has declined rapidly but still happens

its another act which needs to be prohibited WW in my  opinion


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 20, 2017)

retrofan_k said:


> It won't end until radicalised islam is nuked off the face of the earth


Brainless creature do some study. Don't be like Bin Ladin, Hitler, Bush, Donald Trump etc.


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Brainless creature do some study. Don't be like Bin Ladin, Hitler, Bush, Donald Trump etc.




Dear brother, He did say Radicalised Islam and not Islam itself. So if my assumptions are true then he is saying ISIS and Co should be nuked off the earth and NOT the entirety of Islam itself


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 20, 2017)

Being so eager to throw nukes over AK47 wielding gorillas may end up in nuclear winter.

PS: well, at least MOAB lacks the fallout.


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Being so eager to throw nukes over AK47 wielding gorillas may end up in nuclear winter.



That is the only aspect of @retrofan_k  post that i diddnt agree with. Its better to use Navy missiles or even better to use ground troops. Yes more millitary casualities will occur but at least no innocents will be killed by shooting missles into areas that have isis who use hostages as shields


----------



## smf (Apr 20, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> Yes the one which is illegal but still happens all over the world.



You can't stop people from doing illegal things. Laws will dissuade some people, but not others. There isn't a way of making something super illegal which will stamp it out.

Your uk link was an american story reported in the uk papers. I'm not sure why the uk papers go out of their way to report on perversion occurring in the us, I suspect it's because people like reading about it.


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

smf said:


> You can't stop people from doing illegal things. Laws will dissuade some people, but not others.



Yeah thats why some people, in the UK at least, favour the USAs laws and punishments like Death Row. The reason being since some people commit crimes that deserve more than life in prision. One such crime would be the guy who carried out the london attacks recently. But then there is the question of who are we to decide who is to live and who is to die

But thats just my two cents


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 20, 2017)

Terrorists have no religion based believe. They only use religion as a tool. Killing innocents is 100 100 100% forbidden in Islam & other religions aswell. Thats why I said don't put forth any religion. Terrorist are terrorist they have there own F-up believe. They are uneducated brainwashed fools. So racist people you have no right to blame Islam or any religion because of those lunatics. There are KKK. There are lunatics out there. You can't blame any innocent because of them.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 20, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> Yeah thats why some people, in the UK at least, favour the USAs laws and punishments like Death Row. The reason being since some people commit crimes that deserve more than life in prision. One such crime would be the guy who carried out the london attacks recently. But then there is the question of who are we to decide who is to live and who is to die
> 
> But thats just my two cents



The death penalty is frowned upon, if not illegal in some states. I think that's stupid. So many of these criminals deserve it.


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

Memoir said:


> The death penalty is frowned upon, if not illegal in some states. I think that's stupid. So many of these criminals deserve it.




That is true in some cases i agree. but there have been cases where 40 yrs in prision has helped reform criminals. This one story that started off with hate left me smiling upon hearing its outcome 

http://www.vox.com/videos/2016/11/28/13760070/muslim-american-shot-save-attackers-life


----------



## matthi321 (Apr 20, 2017)

i dont know why everybody hates muslims they make good kebabs


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Apr 20, 2017)

matthi321 said:


> i dont know why everybody hates muslims they make good kebabs


 

LOL Apparently Chineese Muslims make them waaay better in China


----------



## osirisjem (Apr 20, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Terrorists have no religion based believe. They only use religion as a tool. Killing innocents is 100 100 100% forbidden in Islam & other religions aswell. Thats why I said don't put forth any religion. Terrorist are terrorist they have there own F-up believe. They are uneducated brainwashed fools. So racist people you have no right to blame Islam or any religion because of those lunatics. There are KKK. There are lunatics out there. You can't blame any innocent because of them.



Thugs are thugs.
Why are there so many brainwashed uneducated Muslim fools ? 

I've never heard of a Falun Gong terrorist fool.  

World religions should be replaced with Falun Gong.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 20, 2017)

matthi321 said:


> i dont know why everybody hates muslims they make good kebabs


LOL, sounds like a racist stereotype, but hell that is true.
Now I am hungry.


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 20, 2017)

matthi321 said:


> They make good kebabs


You mean chapli kabab or seekh kabab?


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 20, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> You mean chapli kabab or seekh kabab?


I think he meant döner kebab, in the "turkish" style, as sold as fast food in Germany and etc.
But any kebab sounds tasty right now.


----------



## Viri (Apr 20, 2017)

Meanwhile in Paris. I thought guns were banned in Paris? How did that guy even get a gun, legit question.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 20, 2017)

Viri said:


> Meanwhile in Paris. I thought guns were banned in Paris? How did that guy even get a gun, legit question.


I thought cocaine was banned in the USA? How do so many guys get cocaine, legit question.

PS: Black market I suppose.


----------



## Viri (Apr 20, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> I thought cocaine was banned in the USA? How do so many guys get cocaine, legit question.
> 
> PS: Black market I suppose.


You can grow dat shit if you know how!


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 20, 2017)

Viri said:


> You can grow dat shit if you know how!


Well, that may be so for weed. But for cocaine you actually have to extract it and go through a chemical process.
I suppose you can "grow" (build) guns too. Even 3D print them.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 20, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Well, that may be so for weed. But for cocaine you actually have to extract it and go through a chemical process.
> I suppose you can "grow" (build) guns too. Even 3D print them.


3D printing has brought in a terrifying age for firearms, because now anyone can download the plans to a handgun if they know where to look and the only piece of metal in it would be a small nail used as the hammer


----------



## Viri (Apr 20, 2017)

Welp, I'm guessing Le Pen is pretty thrilled at this happening, it'll only boost her chances in the polls. If France leaves the EU like the UK is, then the EU is pretty much dead.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TotalInsanity4 said:


> 3D printing has brought in a terrifying age for firearms, because now anyone can download the plans to a handgun if they know where to look and the only piece of metal in it would be a small nail used as the hammer


3D printing srsly came out of nowhere for me. I am pretty amazed at what it can do, and what it will be able to do.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 21, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Terrorists have no religion based believe. They only use religion as a tool.


That makes no sense. Do you realize that most terrorists kill and GET KILLED? Why would Muslim terrorists get themselves killed if they didn't believe in a reward in the supposed afterlife?
Read more in my earlier post:



Spoiler: Earlier Post (Page 11 of this thread)



1) You use the word Islamophobia. I find it funny how in Paris after the terror attacks people went to the streets demonstrating that they are not afraid, people said they need to be united, they are against Islamophobia blabla. Then all of a sudden there is a suspicious noise and EVERYONE keeps running like a herd of sheep from a few wolves. That's pathetic. Every time I see terror attacks on the news I sarcastically say "Look at these Islamophobes running away. Don't they know Islam is a religion of peace?"

2) You claim I don't know about Islam. Actually I read the Quran several times, as well as significant portions of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, as well as common commentators like Ibn Kathir. What about you? I didn't read in Arabic but there are good websites with word by word translations, explanation of grammar etc. I know about the differences between translations (which one is more exact etc) and if I want to know about a specific phrase, I don't shy away from checking and comparing up to 10 translations in different languages.

3) You say that "such teachings" can be found in all monotheistic religion. Yes and no. I'm not here to defend other religions. In a way you are right, all monotheistic religions have a tendency to exclude members of other religious, show intolerance and have a history of or a fantasy about violence. Not sure about Zoroastrians (traditional Persian religion) but they are irrelevant today anyway.

BUT Islam is unique. Martyrdom in Christianity meant (and means today in African / Middle Eastern countries) to die for your faith. E.g. Muslims catch you and hold a knife to your head. Will you deny Christ? According to the New Testament, you should not. You get killed for "his glory" and go to heaven.
Roughly 600 years later the Quran comes along and says "They fight in the name of Allah, they slay and are slain" (+ various sayings by Muhammad e.g. that he would love to die in Jihad, be resurrected and die in Jihad again and so on). -> Killing and being killed for your faith. The Quran even allows its followers to deny being a Muslim in a dangerous situation (which is smart).
Christian history adopted the "killing for your faith" idea during the crusades (which by the way was a pathetic counter attack after hundreds of years of losing territory to the Muslims, see today's Near East and North Africa), but they have nothing to do with the original founder (be it Jesus or Paul) of the religion. So reforms always have a chance to make Christianity peaceful again. Reforms cannot make Islam peaceful because Islam was violent from the beginning (Islamic time reckoning starts with Medina, i.e. Muhammad gets political/military power). Muhammad: powerful and therefor violent. Jesus/Paul: powerless (and therefore?) peaceful.

4) The only way for Islam to become peaceful is to relativize it. Not surprisingly secular Muslims have less motivation to kill and get killed. For the vast majority of Christians (at least in the west) the thought of dying for Christ by not denying him seems stupid and horrific. Very few Christians would actually go out and leave their family and property to live a life as a poor wandering missionary - even though that's what Christ taught and how Jesus/Paul lived! Similarly most Muslims actually prefer THIS life.

5) Which brings me to converts: As you correctly stated, many radical Muslims have become radical only a few years/months/weeks before dying for their faith. That's natural! Converts in all religions feel like they have to prove themselves.

As for those who had been "bad Muslims" before (i.e. drinking alcohol, partying etc): Once they get radicalized they realize how much bad deeds they have collected. They don't know if they can make it to heaven even if they become very devote from now on. Some are so desperate that they die in Jihad as it is a guaranteed ticket to paradise.
-> So yes, Islam has a lot to do with it. People who love this life (e.g. rich people) have less incentive/motivation to die for their faith but without the Islamic belief (which I just mentioned) people don't become suicide bombers. Do you know how many poor Hindus there are in India? How many poor Buddhists all over South-East Asia? How come they are not constantly in the news because they blew themselves up? Social exclusion is only one piece of the puzzle - albeit it an important one. The other one is Islam.






Haider Raza said:


> Killing innocents is 100 100 100% forbidden in Islam & other religions aswell.


The Muslim trick is: Define innocent!
I would be already a dead man in Sharia-based countries for criticizing Islam. And Muslims would not protest against it (or would even applaud it). Famous critics of Islam in Germany (they are former Muslims) are under constant police protections by police. Keep in mind Muslims are a majority in Germany!

Muslims (and politicians like former president Obama) like to quote Sura 5:32 which states that killing an innocent is like killing all mankind. Funny facts about it:
-The source for this verse is the Jewish Talmud (i.e. since Kain killed Able he also prevented/killed Able's potential descendants). Actually it shouldn't even be in the Quran as the Talmud comes from Jewish Rabbis after the time of Jesus. The Quran claims God really said this verse to the "children of Israel".
-When politicians or Islamophiles or Islamic apologists quote this verse, they usually leave out the "children of Israel" part and they always leave out the next verse. Sura 5:33 states what should happens to those WHO ARE NOT INNOCENT: Be crucified, exiled, or their hands and feet cut of from opposite sides. How is sb not innocent? The verse states: If sb fights Allah and Muhammad or spreads "fasādan" (the word also appears in the verse before it) in the land.
-fasādan/fasādin is often translated as spreading corruption. You don't need to rely on any translation or Quranic commentary, you can just look up the meaning of the word in other instances in the Quran itself. It often has to do with belief (here is a list: http://search.quranaddict.co.uk/2012/02/corrupt.html)
-> Do you Westerners have your armies in Muslim lands? Isn't that spreading corruption/fasadan?
-> Do you Westerners not support the killings of Muslims by paying taxes?
-> Plus believing in another religion and spreading it is obviously "fasadan", therefore the Coptic Christisans in Egypt who died recently celebrating Easter are not necessarily innocent.
-> Sb who criticizes Islam is also not innocent, he/she is spreading corruption/fasadan.

What did Muhammad say about innocent people getting killed?
1) There are sahih (sound) narrations of Muhammad (according to Sunni Islam) who said that children being killed in battle may be ok as they are "of them" (the enemy). (Sahih Muslim Book 19 Nr 4321, 4322, 4323). Sahih Muslim is considered the most trustworthy collection of deeds/saying of Muhammad in Sunni Islam (next to Sahih Bukhari)
https://muflihun.com/muslim/19/4321
https://muflihun.com/muslim/19/4322
https://muflihun.com/muslim/19/4323

2) Muslims like to say terrorists can't be Muslims because they kill other Muslims. Even when you disregard the Sunni vs Shia divide in the world, there are Muslims who considers moderate Muslims as hypocrites. Their view is supported by Muhammad himself!
https://muflihun.com/muslim/20/4696
"It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said: *One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.*" 'Abdullah b. Mubarak said: We think the hadith pertained to the time of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him)."



Haider Raza said:


> Thats why I said don't put forth any religion. Terrorist are terrorist they have there own F-up believe. They are uneducated brainwashed fools. So racist people you have no right to blame Islam or any religion because of those lunatics. There are KKK. There are lunatics out there. You can't blame any innocent because of them.


I'm not a racist. I don't like white converted Muslims either if they support Sharia, Jihad or would applaud me being killed for criticizing Islam. I do love people from Muslim countries who have the courage to speak out against the Sharia. You just throw names at people because you have no arguments. As for the KKK: It would be interesting to compare their deeds with the teachings of Jesus (if they even claim to affiliate to Jesus). On the other hand, you can justify practices of ISIS like having sex with war captives with the Quran.
Who are you to tell ISIS members who is and who isn't a true Muslim? If you do not support Jihad you are a hypocrite. That's not my opinion but that of your prophet.


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 21, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That makes no sense. Do you realize that most terrorists kill and GET KILLED? Why would Muslim terrorists get themselves killed if they didn't believe in a reward in the supposed afterlife?


Again let me tell you a person who kills innocents & thinks he'll get Jannah for it. Either he is lunatic, uneducated or brainwashed. As I mentioned most of the times killing innocents is a major sin in Islam. In Quran Chapter 5 Verse 32 Allah says *“Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.”*

& Jihad doesn't mean holy war. If you think it means that then there is no difference between you & ISIS because you both have same believe. Jihad means to strive & struggle. For Example If a person doing hard study to pass his exam he is doing jihad.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Thats why I said to you racist people many times  that go & do study don't be like Hitler, Bush, ISIS etc.


----------



## barronwaffles (Apr 21, 2017)

You didn't read anything that @UltraDolphinRevolution wrote, did you?


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 21, 2017)

I feel like a prophet as I have predicted Raza's answer exactly. Maybe I should write a book.
BTW Jihad means struggle but most of the time in the Quran it is meant as a struggle to fight. Normal people don't like war. Read my post about Sura 5,32 and then respond, pls.

Regarding child marriage:
-Aisha, Muhammad's youngest wife, was 9 when he consummated the marriage with her. According to many Non-Islamic countries that would be considered child abused. Are you ready to condemn Muhammad or do you deny the Muslim sources? Since Muhammad is Islam's role model (confirmed by the Quran), it is obvious that child marriage is a bigger problems among Muslim communities.
-The Quran does not even seem to forbid to have sex with girls who have not yet menstruated. I find that quite shocking. What is your explanation?
I'm talking about Sura 64, verse 4 (the context are waiting periods, "Iddah", for woman who are divorced or widows before marrying again)

"If you are in doubt, the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruating and* for those who have not [yet] menstruated*; the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden: God makes things easy for those who are mindful of Him."

The word yet is inserted in translations but for linguistic and contextual meanings the Quran must speak of young girls who have not menstruated yet. The word menstruated (yaḥiḍ'na) is in the imperfect verb form. The contextual evidence is that the phrase comes as a contrast to woman who are too old.


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 21, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *BTW Jihad means struggle but most of the time in the Quran it is meant as a struggle to fight.*
> 
> Regarding child marriage:
> *-Aisha, Muhammad's youngest wife, was 9 when he consummated the marriage with her.*


Read the given  Most Misinterpreted Verses Of The Quran.

These are the verses you guys often show because of your agenda. Learn the history & you'll know why they were revealed.

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...etribution-for-those-murdered-quran-2178-179/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...belief-is-worse-than-killing-quran-2-191-194/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...on-you-while-it-is-hateful-to-you-quran-2216/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/23/quran-2225-unintentional-oaths/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/and-fight-in-the-cause-of-god-quran-2244/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/quran-328-not-to-take-non-believers-as-friends/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3121-the-battle-of-uhud/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/03/quran-3140-143-battle-of-uhud/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...fflicted-them-in-the-cause-of-god-quran-3146/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014...st-terror-into-the-hearts-of-the-unbelievers/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3152-158-battle-of-uhud/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3165-169-quraysh-declared-war-battle-of-uhud/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3172-173-hamra-al-asad-or-lesser-badr/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...m-to-be-in-safety-from-punishment-quran-3188/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...my-cause-or-fought-or-were-killed-quran-3195/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/fight-the-cause-of-allah-for-the-oppressed-quran-471-77/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...allah-you-are-not-held-responsible-quran-484/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ill-them-wherever-you-find-them-quran-489-91/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ll-them-wherever-you-overtake-them-quran-491/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ive-fight-in-the-cause-of-allah-quran-494-95/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...attack-disbelievers-are-enemy-quran-4101-103/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/08/do-not-weaken-in-pursuit-of-the-enemy-quran-4104/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ch-you-then-if-you-gain-a-victory-quran-4141/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/18/surah-532-sanhedrin-talmud-plagiarism/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/18/those-who-wage-war-and-make-mischief-quran-533/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/09/seek-the-means-to-him-and-strive-in-his-cause-quran-535/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...lievers-to-be-jews-and-polytheists-quran-582/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...e-hearts-of-the-disbelievers-quran-81-to-812/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...es-return-to-war-we-will-return-quran-815-19/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...l-there-is-no-more-fitna-disbelief-quran-839/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/09/quran-838-48-battle-of-badr/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/08/quran-856-61-banu-qurayzah/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/08/quran-861-75-battle-of-badr/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/23/quran-93-dissolution-of-oaths/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/22/an-historical-examination-of-the-sword-verse-surah-95/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/the-sword-verse-surah-913-24/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/surah-925-27-battle-of-hunayn/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...t-against-those-who-do-not-believe-quran-929/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/quran-936-battle-of-hunayn/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/quran-938-52-the-battle-of-tabuk/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/06/prophet-fight-against-the-hypocrites-surah-973/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/12/battle-of-tabuk-quran-981-88/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ng-to-spend-for-the-cause-of-allah-surah-992/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...of-allah-they-kill-and-are-killed-surah-9111/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/11/tabuk-expedition-surah-9120/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...to-go-forth-to-battle-all-at-once-quran-9122/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/10/fight-those-disbelievers-who-are-near-you-surah-9123/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015...for-one-who-is-forced-deceiving-disbelievers/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...-cause-of-allah-and-were-patient-surah-16110/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/11/when-we-intend-to-destroy-a-city-surah-1716/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...rments-of-fire-will-be-cut-out-surah-2219-23/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ven-to-those-who-are-being-fought-surah-2239/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...use-of-allah-and-then-were-killed-surah-2258/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...llah-with-the-striving-due-to-him-quran-2278/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/14/jihad-they-would-go-forth-in-allahs-cause-quran-2453-55/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/06/penalty-for-those-who-slander-innocent-women/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/10/jihad-strive-against-the-disbelievers-surah-2552/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...strives-for-the-benefit-of-himself-quran-296/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/quran-2969-those-who-strive-for-us-we-will-surely-jihad/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/quran-3315-27-battle-of-khandaq/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/14/those-who-malign-allah-and-his-messenger-quran-3357/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...e-seized-wherever-found-and-slain-surah-3361/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/23/quran-4028-a-believer-lying/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...cks-they-shall-be-dragged-into-quran-4071-72/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...es-them-they-defend-themselves-quran-4239-43/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...nbelievers-inflict-great-slaughter-surah-474/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...aled-and-fighting-is-mentioned-surah-4720-21/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...r-peace-while-you-are-superior-surah-4731-35/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/15/quran-4815-26-battle-of-khaybar/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...re-severe-against-the-unbelievers-surah-4829/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...alth-and-lives-for-cause-of-allah-surah-4915/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/14/after-life-quran-5692-94/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/banu-nadirs-treachery-quran-592-14/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...though-they-are-a-single-structure-surah-614/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ith-your-wealth-and-your-lives-surah-6111-13/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/the-hypocrites-quran-631-4/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ur-children-are-enemies-to-you-surah-6414-16/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/commentary-on-quran-661-2/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...he-disbelievers-and-the-hypocrites-surah-669/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/12/others-fighting-for-the-cause-of-allah-surah-7320/

https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...o-the-needy-orphan-and-the-captive-surah-768/


*Was this Marriage wrong before 1400 years ?  Did Muhammad s.a.w married her due to lust ? Was this marraige Wrong according to society and environment ?  Was this marriage done before her puberty ? *

*Answer is NO .*



*1-It was a divine inspiration:*
Before describing the rationale behind this married relation, let it be known that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) married Sayyida Aisha not of his own desire rather it was a Divine inspiration. Read the following Hadith;

Narrated ‘Aisha:

*That the Prophet said to her, “You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). ‘This is your wife.’ When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, ‘If this is from Allah, it will be done.” {Bukhari :: Volume 5 :: Book 58 :: Hadith 235}*

*2-It was not out of his physical desires:*
The Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) did not marry Sayyidah Aisha out of his physical desires. One need to note that for first 54 years of his life he had only one wife. His only wife till 50th year of his life was Sayyida Khadija. He spent his entire youth with her and she was a two time widowed woman, 15 years elder to him. For next four years his only wife was Sayyidah Sa’uda.

*3-Age of Marriage in Old Ages:*
One must first understand that 1400 years ago was very different than now, times have changed and so have humans. 1400 years ago it was something very common to marry young girls, in fact they were not considered young girls, and rather they were considered young women back then. It is a historic fact that girls from the ages of 9 to 14 were being married in Europe, Asia, and Africa, in fact even in the United States girls at the age of 10 were also being married just more than a century ago.

Yet with these facts no historian claims that all these people were sick perverts, historians would call anyone who made such a claim to be arrogant and very stupid who has no grasp or understanding of history.

Even in Indo-Pak Sub-Continent girls used to be married at 12-13 even 50-60 years ago. And those ‘girls’ infact raised much better families. There were less family problems then. A simple analyses of the divorce rate then and know would certainly make it clear that maturity level earlier used to be different i.e. people used to come of age rather quickly.

*4-Child Brides in Byzantine Empire:*
http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm

Visit this link to see how common were the child brides in the Byzantine Empire.This article clearly states;”Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century”.

*5-The Pagans of the Prophet’s time:*
The fact that it was a completely acceptable thing can also be seen from the response of the pagans at that time. No Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet’s marriage was:1-People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.2-Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many non-Muslim and Muslim countries

*6-Engagement with Jubair bin Mutim:*
It ought also be noted that Sayyidah Aisha ( RA) was engaged to Jubayr son of Mut’im before Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him. This indicates the age of marriage and engagement in Prophet’s time. However, the engagement was later nullified by Jubayr’s parents due to Abu Bakr (RA) embracing Islam.Doesn’t this indicate there was nothing bad in marrying a 9 year girl at that time?She must have been even younger when she was engaged to Jubair

*7-Sayyidah Aisha was fit for marriage:*
Furthermore as to the Holy Prophet’s marriage with Sayyidah Aisha, something people will notice is that the completion of the marriage was done when Sayyidah Aisha was 9 years old, not when she was 6, and there is a reason for that. The reason why this happened is because Sayyidah Aisha had been through puberty by the age of 9, and in Islam a female who under-goes puberty is considered a lady and is fit for marriage.
If we read the hadiths, we find that right before Sayyidah Aisha got married off to the Holy Prophet that she was sick and not feeling too well:

Narrated Sayyidah Aisha:

*The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.” {Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234}*

So as we can see, Sayyidah Aisha got ill and her body was going through some changes, indicating that she was going through her puberty.

*8-Sayyida Aisha never showed her displeasure:*
Another striking thing to observe is that among hundreds of her narrations there is not even a single one showing her displeasure about this marriage. Hence, she had no problem with this relation. Infect it is manifest from several traditions that she loved the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) too much and even felt some sort of jealousy when she found others around him. Does this not prove that she was extremely happy about this marriage? So, when she herself had no problem at all then what’s the matter of concern for others?

*9-A 9-year old Thai girl gave birth:*
A 9 old girl can become a mother. If you don’t believe me then see here is the proof;

The news item is from the New Straits Times, 10/3/2001.

In our world today, we still have people who marry very young girls. Why should we object to someone who married a 9-year old girl 1400 years ago, when we still practice it today? The girl above even gave birth at the age of 9!

*10-It was absolutely legal:*
Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions. It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into “women”, then they get married off. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life had always been and will always be a mandatory requirement for men to have in life. So men waited much longer than women in terms of getting married. The guy had to develop both his body and mind before he was ready for marriage. That is why you see girls as young as 9 or 10 were married to men as old as 30 or even older. The culture back then and in many of the world countries today (NON-MUSLIM ONES TOO) is quite different than what you live in today.And there is no divine law which is broken in marrying a girl of nine at any costs.

*11-Her parents never objected:*
Sayyidah Aisha’s mother and the Muslim women back then were O.K with her marriage. It was part of the Arab custom and still is in many of the Muslim and non-Muslim countries today for girls to marry at a very young age. When a girl’s body starts showing up (her breasts and her height and physical size), then she would be ready for marriage
The only reason why Sayyidah Aisha’s father, Abu Baker Al Sidique, broke her engagement with Jober is because he was a non-Muslim. Later, a woman named Kholeah Bint Hakeem suggested for Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to marry Sayyidah Aisha, because the Prophet and Abu Baker became best friends. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) engaged Sayyidah Aisha for 3 years before he married her.

*12-Muslims never concealed it:*
Had there been any bad thinking regarding this marriage in minds of the people at that time. Muslims would have tried there best to conceal at that time. But they didn’t.

*13-Refuting unjust Pagan views:*
There were many baseless traditions in practice among the Arabs in those days. So Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was usually ordered by the Almighty ALLAH to refute such traditions through personal examples. Similar is the case of Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Umm al Momineen Aisha (R.A.)

1-For a bad omen, Arab considered Shawwal a month prohibited for marriage. Sayyidah A’isha’s betrothal and departure from her parent’s house took place in Shawwal. This changed the ridiculous custom.

2-Another bad custom was that the Arabs did not give the hands of their daughters to those who they “called” their brothers (though were not actual brothers). This was the objection raised by Abu Bakr himself, when the Prophet (peace be upon him) made the proposal. The Prophet (Peace be upon him) then told him that a brother in faith was not an actual blood brother to be placed in the prohibited category.

*14-Great Wisdom behind this marriage:*
Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) marriage with Sayyidah Aisha at that age was indeed a great blessings for all the Muslims ever since. Most of the matters related to cleanliness, married relationship and other household issues have been cleared due to her narrations. She lived a long time after the death of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and continued to teach the Ummah about matters of daily routine and great importance.

*15-What was Sayyidah Aisha famous for ??*
Well what was her specialty? I ask the critics.

Was it beauty?

Was it wealth?

No it was religion!Thus proving the DIVINE LOGIC.

Arwa Bin Zubair says, “I did not find anyone more proficient (than Aisha ) in the knowledge of the Holy Quran, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the Prophet used to consult Aisha in resolving intricate issues”.
(Jala-ul-Afham by Ibn Qaiyem and Ibn Sa’ad, Vol.2, p.26)

Also see this;

*Abu Musa al-Ashari says: “Never had we (the companions) any difficulty for the solution of which we approached Aisha and did not get some useful information from her”. (Sirat-I-Aisha, on the authority of Trimidhi, pg. 163)





Here are some sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that help us understand the life-changing and tranformative Divine message revealed to him and his tremendous character.

*


*

“A Muslim who plants a tree or sows a field, from which man, birds and animals can eat, is committing an act of charity.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“There is a polish for everything that takes away rust; and the polish for the heart is the remembrance of Allah.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“If you put your whole trust in Allah, as you ought, He most certainly will satisfy your needs, as He satisfies those of the birds. They come out hungry in the morning, but return full to their nests.” (Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“Allah will not give mercy to anyone, except those who give mercy to other creatures.” (Abdullah b. Amr: Abu Dawud & Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“Say what is true, although it may be bitter and displeasing to people.” (Baihaqi)
*
 


*

“Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“When you see a person who has been given more than you in money and beauty, look to those, who have been given less.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“If you do not feel ashamed of anything, then you can do whatever you like.” (Abu-Masud: Bukhari)
*
 


*

“It is better to sit alone than in company with the bad; and it is better still to sit with the good than alone. It is better to speak to a seeker of knowledge than to remain silent; but silence is better than idle words.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Verily, a man teaching his child manners is better than giving one bushel of grain in alms.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“Whoever is kind, Allah will be kind to him; therefore be kind to man on the earth. He who is in heaven will show mercy on you.” (Abu Dawud: Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“It is difficult for a man laden with riches to climb the steep path, that leads to bliss.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“The best of you are those who are best to the women.” (Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“Whoever loveth to meet God, God loveth to meet him” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Once a man, who was passing through a road, found a branch of a tree with thorns obstructing it. The man removed the thorns from the way. Allah thanked him and forgave his sins.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Who are the learned? Those who practice what they know.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Allah has revealed to me, that you must be humble. No one should boast over one another, and no one should oppress another.” (Iyad b. Hinar al-Mujashi: Muslim)
*
 


*

“A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“A Muslim who meets with others and shares their burdens is better than one who lives a life of seclusion and contemplation.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“Serve Allah, as you would if you could see Him; although you cannot see Him, He can see you.” (Umar: Muslim)
*
 


*

“Allah does not look at your appearance or your possessions; but He looks at your heart and your deeds.” (Abu Huraira: Muslim)
*
 


*

“The best richness is the richness of the soul.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Keep yourselves far from envy; because it eats up and takes away good actions, like a fire eats up and burns wood.” (Abu Dawud)
*
 


*

“Much silence and a good disposition, there are no two things better than these.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Verily, Allah is mild and is fond of mildness, and He gives to the mild what He does not give to the harsh.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“Once the Prophet was asked: “Tell us, which action is dearest to Allah?” He answered: “To say your prayer at its proper time.” Again he was asked: “What comes next?” Mohammad said: “To show kindness to parents.” “Then what?” he was asked, “To strive for the cause of Allah!” (Ibn Masad: Bukhari)
*
 


*

“When two persons are together, two of them must not whisper to each other, without letting the third hear; because it would hurt him.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
*
 


*

“Verily, it is one of the respects to Allah to honor an old man.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“I command you to treat women kindly…” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“All Muslims are like a foundation, each strengthening the other; in such a way they do support each other.” (Abu Musa: Bukhari & Muslim)
*
 


*

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“You will not enter paradise until you have faith; and you will not complete your faith till you love one another.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“He, who wishes to enter paradise at the best gate, must please his father and mother.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
*
 


*

“I am leaving two things among you, and if you cling to them firmly you will never go astray; one is the Book of Allah and the other is my way of life.” (Last Sermon on the Mount)
*
 


*

“Allah is One and likes Unity.” (Muslim)
*
 


*

“The best of alms is that, which the right hand gives and the left hand knows not of.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“The perfect Muslim is not a perfect Muslim, who eats till he is full and leaves his neighbors hungry.” (Ibn Abbas: Baihaqi)
*
 


*

“He is not of us who is not affectionate to the little ones, and does not respect the old; and he is not of us, who does not order which is lawful, and prohibits that which is unlawful.” (Ibn Abbas: Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself.” (Abu Hamza Anas: Bukhari & Muslim)
*
 


*

“To strive for the cause of Allah from daybreak to noon and sunset is better than the goods and enjoyment of the whole worldly life.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Be not like the hypocrite who, when he talks, tells lies; when he gives a promise, he breaks it; and when he is trusted, he proves dishonest.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
*
 


*

“The proof of a Muslim’s sincerity is, that he pays no heed to that, which is not his business.” (Abu Hureira: Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind.” (Muslims & Bukhari)
*
 


*

“Conduct yourself in this world, as if you are here to stay forever; prepare for eternity as if you have to die tomorrow.” (Bukhari)
*
 


*

“The human being does not fill up any vessel worse than his stomach.” (Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“The worldly comforts are not for me. I am like a traveler, who takes a rest under a tree in the shade and then goes on his way.” (Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“Women are the twin halves of men.” (Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“A father gives his child nothing better than a good education.” (Tirmidhi)
*
 


*

“The strong person is not the one who can wrestle someone else down. The strong person is the one who can control himself when he is angry.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
*
 


*

“The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim.” (Tirmidhi)
*


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Apr 21, 2017)

Huh, in the Middle Ages, in Christian countries, forced marriages were normal within society. And Protestant massacres by Catholics also existed. Actually, people today focus on Islam doing shit because Christianism did that centuries ago -.-


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Huh, in the Middle Ages, in Christian countries, forced marriages were normal within society. And Protestant massacres by Catholics also existed. Actually, people today focus on Islam doing shit because Christianism did that centuries ago -.-



You and I live now. We don't have 500 years after which Islam might be different.

@Raza: You accuse me of being like Hitler (1) and having an agenda (2). 
1: Actually Hitler liked Islam more than Christianity as he perceived Christianity as weak. Also, the Nazis were allied with Muslims and shared the hatred against Jews. That's why hatred against Jews in Europe increases with the increase of Muslim population.
2: My agenda is to show that Islam does have sth to do with Islamic terror attacks. Should be obvious but the majority of politicians and Muslims deny it. Your agenda is just that.

Now you can either quote what I have written and discuss the topic with me directly or let it be. So far it felt like talking to a wall. Instead of engaging with my arguments you posted a thousand links. Even the long text about Aisha's puberty is not from you. Basically you are not intellectually capable of having a discussion. The only think you can do is avoiding the topic, calling me names and posting links.
Actually I never claimed that Aisha hadn't reached her puberty before Muhammad (who was in his 50s) had vaginal sex with her. It's still wrong in the eyes of most people on this planet (because she was still a child as the text you linked confirms).

*I'll try one more time: One of my arguments (in short) about terrorism is as follows:
Argument: The claim Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is wrong.
Reason 1: Terrorists believe they will be rewarded with paradise for fighting and dying for their Muslim faith.
Reason 2: Social problems (exclusion, lack of job opportunity etc) is only one part of the story. If Islam has nothing do with it terrorism, why don't we see weekly terror attacks committed by poor Hindus or Buddhists? *


----------



## smf (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Actually I never claimed that Aisha hadn't reached her puberty before Muhammad (who was in his 50s) had vaginal sex with her. It's still wrong in the eyes of most people on this planet (because she was still a child as the text you linked confirms).



I don't know if you can claim that most people on the planet see it as wrong. However the people who do think it's wrong is because she is not old enough to give informed consent. She may have been happy to go along with it, she may even initiate it, but it's still child sexual exploitation.

I don't know how many men would have had sex with her if there were no legal or moral consequences, but today you would be labelled as a pedophile. Just because you decide to not act on desires to avoid legal problems doesn't change it. Just like a gay man who is married and has never had a same sex relationship, is still gay.

Just because pedophilia has been socially acceptable in certain places at certain times doesn't change what it was. Beating and killing your slaves has also been socially acceptable.

I don't know why Muhammad would have been chosen by god to be a prophet knowing that he was sexually attracted to young girls, when god would be aware that in hundreds of years it would become an embarrassing part of history. The alternative is that Muhammad made up being a prophet & told people what they wanted to hear for some personal advantage. The later is bad for Muslims, the former is bad for all humanity.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Apr 22, 2017)

im sorry but i feel all the "justifying" is a joke "ohhh but people didn't see a issue with it back then" and "oh and it was legal, so why should he not"

I'm sorry but if the book is as infallible as many muslims believe it to be, god would have made it totally infallible and left ZERO room for manipulation or twisting, he also wouldn't have based it on the beliefs of a weird perverted/violent time and then to add insult to injury say "oh yeah and don't question this shit, its all totally correct forever and I WILL NOT! be making a "2017 edition, with new and improved gay rights and less perverts rights to bring it inline with modern understanding and tolerance of others"

if killing little children based on the colour of their hair was legal in our society I would like to hope most people would be able to see the "wrong" in that legal right and opt not to partake in the activity despite its legal standing

look I'm fine with people having their religions, but if british people were doing something bad based on English law I wouldn't just be like "oh well they aren't English as I interpreted being English so lets just completely ignore their claims to the contrary" ....no instead I would be trying to collect as many British people to "out" these kinds of people from our society, to the point where these individuals are not welcome to pray next to me, and cannot spread their vitriol in our community or face being reported and dealt with, I don't care about their claims of being part of my community I would kick them out at the first sign of them condoning shit I don't agree with, not giving them a free pass up until they cross the line and only then denouncing them


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> .....


 
*You accuse me of being like Hitler (1) and having an agenda (2).*
A: Yes thats true because you have the same hate as him. He was a racist fool & you too.

1: *Actually Hitler liked Islam more than Christianity* *as he perceived Christianity as weak.* *Also, the Nazis were allied with Muslims and shared the hatred against Jews.* *That's why hatred against Jews in Europe increases with the increase of Muslim population.*
2: *My agenda is to show that Islam does have sth to do with Islamic terror attacks. Should be obvious but the majority of politicians and Muslims deny it. Your agenda is just that.*

1: Got evidence Hitler liked Islam & muslims joined him & killed millions of jews? Don't make your own bullshit story. Go learn the fact. You say his Christianity was weak. If his faith in Christianity was weak what it has to do with Muslims? Your point makes no sense. I know why you said that (To blame Muslims). You said because of Muslims joined nazis thats why the got bigger in population in europe. Where is the evidence? By just putting your opinion infront doen't make reality.

2: As I said many times Islam doesn't have to do anything with terrorists because if they (Terrorists) don't follow what islam teaches then how can you claim them to be followers of islam? I think you are a lunatic & uneducated fool. Our agenda is to make peace whether you believe or not. I'm not like You, Hitler, Bush, Bin Ladin or any of the racist shits. You have agenda that is your hatred.


*Now you can either quote what I have written and discuss the topic with me directly or let it be. So far it felt like talking to a wall. Instead of engaging with my arguments you posted a thousand links. Even the long text about Aisha's puberty is not from you. Basically you are not intellectually capable of having a discussion. The only think you can do is avoiding the topic, calling me names and posting links.
Actually I never claimed that Aisha hadn't reached her puberty before Muhammad (who was in his 50s) had vaginal sex with her. It's still wrong in the eyes of most people on this planet (because she was still a child as the text you linked confirms).*

You felt like you talked to wall because you are arrogant & ignorant fool. I posted those links so you can learn History about Islam. If you don't learn that then you can't put forward you opinion. If you don't know what you're speaking of. About Aisha (R.A) artical Yes thats not from me but that shows you from the history of Islam like what happened & how did they got married & was Aisha (R.A) happy with Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) etc. You got nothing left to say & thats what you come up with like i'm not capable of having discuss with a uneducated fool like you? If it's wrong then go learn the fact like what happened before putting forward your view.


*I'll try one more time: One of my arguments (in short) about terrorism is as follows:
Argument: The claim Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is wrong.
Reason 1: Terrorists believe they will be rewarded with paradise for fighting and dying for their Muslim faith.
Reason 2: Social problems (exclusion, lack of job opportunity etc) is only one part of the story. If Islam has nothing do with it terrorism, why don't we see weekly terror attacks committed by poor Hindus or Buddhists? 
*
If you don't have education & you said i'm learned ones that makes no sense. So your claim about Islam having relation with terrorists is totally irrelevant.

Terrorist believe that. That doesn't make fact like you believe Muslims are terrorist while you can't prove it that doesn't make fact.

Because you are blind & you ignore others most of the crimes that are done in this era are by non-muslims. Your brain are been controlled by media like if a Muslims steals a candy it becomes the headline of every news channel & if a non-muslim kills a person they just show it like 1min. What do you expect?


----------



## s157 (Apr 22, 2017)

All terror attack news threads must be turned into religion wars, eh? Still, a fascinating read upon multiple sides of this argument. It's a shame that religion can be warped so easily. Not even Buddhism is immune to this, looking back at the history of Myanmar (Burma).


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

@gamesquest1: Agreed. That's why a famous Egyptian Ex-Muslim says he will stop talking about the Quran/Muhammad once Muslims stop using the Quran/Muhammad to implement or change TODAY'S laws. Remember, there are Sharia courts in Great Britain (even they only deal with divorce issues and such - so far).


----------



## gamesquest1 (Apr 22, 2017)

look I can see how many people blindly follow mass media demonising, but I have had many muslim friend and know that the vast majority are nice normal people, but things I have witnessed first hand are people giving people with radical views a "free pass" because they are fellow muslims, I knew someone who was the nicest guy I have ever know, and when I brought up  another guy who used to go around spreading muslim extremeist views his response was simple, leave him to express his religion his way, which tbh shocked me, and this is something I have seen a lot where the sense of brotherhood supersedes their own view of what muslims should be preaching and what they should not

its sad, and idk the solution, but just going "nahhhhhhhh that guy who went to mosque every day and ended up blowing himself up shouting allah obviously want a muslim"  just looks ridiculous


----------



## Windowlicker (Apr 22, 2017)

I think it's safe to stop replying to this old thread. It's title could cause a panic attack to someone while it refers to something that already happened the other day. I know I just replied at well, but you get what I mean.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Apr 22, 2017)

Elysium420 said:


> I think it's safe to stop replying to this old thread. It's title could cause a panic attack to someone while it refers to something that already happened the other day. I know I just replied at well, but you get what I mean.


yeah, I don't like getting into these topics too, and yeah its not really good to keep bumping it, I have been trying to avoid posting when it keeps popping up, I just felt like trying to slip a more middle ground view in here to counteract the "all muslims stuff is perfect" and "all muslim stuff is bad", just like most things there is good and bad on both sides, imho the good should be doing more to expose the bad, but I understand many don't want to get involved for the same reason most people don't want to get involved in "hot" topics


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 22, 2017)

smf said:


> I don't know why Muhammad would have been chosen by god


Harun (Aaron)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Aadam (Adam)
Da'ud (David)
Ilias (Elijah)
Alyasa (Elisha)
Idris (Enoch)
Dhul-kifi (Ezekiel)
Hud (Eber)
Is'haq (Isaac)
Isma'il (Ishmael)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Isa (Jesus)
Ayyub (Job)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Younis (Johah)
Lut (Lot)
Nuh (Noah)
Muhammad
Musa (Moses)
Saleh (Salah)
Sulaiman (Solomon)
Zakariyyah (Zechariah)

These are some Prophets that are mentioned by names in Quran & there were many more before. This life is a test for the hereafter. We have free will. Angels have no free will. Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) through angel gabril. Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) was the last & final messenger. Why God chose him is because the scripture before him got corrupted people made Jesus God & stuff. Quran is the final revelation & how was it protected is because people have memorized it & protected it. You can read Quran to know why we believe. You can never find any contradiction in it & it has facts to believe in the creator. Atheists believe there is no God. While they can't prove how they came to existence from nothing & how this complex world & this complex design of us made from nothing. They have no evidence to prove there is no God. While we Muslims say if there is a God after we die. We have prepared for it. What have you prepared? While we follow the guidance of God which is not to drink alcohol not to eat pork not do or use anything that is bad for you & be good to parents, Praise God etc. Even if die & there is nothing afterlife we win & if there is a God we have prepared for it. So we win again. While the person who doesn't believe in God. Who doesn't have good guidance like not to drink alcohol not to anything bad etc. He is a loser to this life & if afterlife exist then he is a loser to afterlife aswell.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Apr 22, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> .


this is the exact outdated muslim style of belief that most people just find hilarious, I'm sorry but if there is a god I'm sure he/she/it would prefer to have heaven with people who didn't believe but were nice, than obnoxious self obsessed narcissists who think they are amazing and everyone should kiss their feet with how amazing they are.....good luck end up in a club full of obsessive narcissists, it sounds like turning up to a fan events where everyone thinks their costume and interpretation of the book is the best.........sounds like a fate worse than hell

-anyway, I'm done on the topic, I guess all books have their obsessive readers, there was me thingking it was just comic book nerds who try compete for ego over who knows the books best


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> A: Yes thats true because you have the same hate as him. He was a racist fool & you too.


I don't care about your skin color. It's a pathetic attempt because you can't engage my arguments. Thank you for demonstrating it once again.






Haider Raza said:


> 1: Got evidence Hitler liked Islam & muslims joined him & killed millions of jews?


I never said Muslims killed millions of Jews. I said they were allies and both hated Jews. Please learn to read and don't accuse me of things I did not write.

Evidence 1: Type in "Muslim SS" in a search engine and see for yourself.
E.g. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AHraEEvNL._SX330_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Evidence 2 (Hitler prefered Islam over Christianity):
"The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers [...] then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Hitler.27s_views_on_Islam




Haider Raza said:


> Don't make your own bullshit story. Go learn the fact. You say his Christianity was weak. If his faith in Christianity was weak what it has to do with Muslims?


I didn't say his faith in Christianity was weak. Learn to read. He thought Christianity was weak. He preferred Islam in terms of how well it fits warfare.


Haider Raza said:


> Your point makes no sense. I know why you said that (To blame Muslims). You said because of Muslims joined nazis thats why the got bigger in population in europe. Where is the evidence? By just putting your opinion infront doen't make reality.


What the F are you talking about? I never said any of this! I said the Jew hatred in Europe is increasing due to the increased Muslim population in Europe. Europeans - for the most part - no longer hate Jews. Many Jews feel threatened in areas where there are many Muslims. They would not openly wear Jewish hats for example. Some are already leaving Europe.



Haider Raza said:


> 2: As I said many times Islam doesn't have to do anything with terrorists because if they (Terrorists) don't follow what islam teaches then how can you claim them to be followers of islam? I think you are a lunatic & uneducated fool. Our agenda is to make peace whether you believe or not. I'm not like You, Hitler, Bush, Bin Ladin or any of the racist shits. You have agenda that is your hatred.


Speaking of making peace. Muhammad killed the last tribe of Jews in Medina by lining up the men and beheading them (at least 600 according to Islamic sources). Only boys without puberty hair and women/girls were left alive and taken as slaves. Doesn't that sound a lot like an ISIS video? Be honest. Are you willing to criticize Muhammad for it?

If ISIS members say they are Muslims, then they are Muslims. If Mormons or Jehovah's Wittnesses say the are Christians, then they are Christians. Who are we to judge what is a Muslim/Christian?
You know what? ISIS members would say YOU are not a Muslim. You don't want to fight for Allah, that's why you are fake Muslim. You know who agrees with them? MUHAMMAD! READ AGAIN:
"It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the *Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said*: *One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihad died the death of a hypocrite.*" 'Abdullah b. Mubarak said: We think the hadith pertained to the time of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him)."
https://muflihun.com/muslim/20/4696
-> Please defend yourself, you hypocrite.






Haider Raza said:


> If you don't have education & you said i'm learned ones that makes no sense. So your claim about Islam having relation with terrorists is totally irrelevant.
> 
> Terrorist believe that. That doesn't make fact like you believe Muslims are terrorist while you can't prove it that doesn't make fact.
> 
> Because you are blind & you ignore others most of the crimes that are done in this era are by non-muslims. Your brain are been controlled by media like if a Muslims steals a candy it becomes the headline of every news channel & if a non-muslim kills a person they just show it like 1min. What do you expect?


Again you didn't attack the argument. You attacked me personally. Show me that my argument is illogical:

I'll try one more time: One of my arguments (in short) about terrorism is as follows:
Argument: The claim Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is wrong.
Reason 1: Terrorists believe they will be rewarded with paradise for fighting and dying for their Muslim faith.
Reason 2: Social problems (exclusion, lack of job opportunity etc) is only one part of the story. If Islam has nothing do with it terrorism, why don't we see weekly terror attacks committed by poor Hindus or Buddhists?


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 22, 2017)

gamesquest1 said:


> *this is the exact outdated muslim style of belief that most people just find hilarious,* *I'm sorry but if there is a god I'm sure he/she/it would prefer to have heaven* *with people who didn't believe but were nice.*


Some people find it hilarious because they are arrogant. If you make a robot who can think on its own & you give him guidance of what to follow because that is good for him & he doesn't do that & that robot goes against your guidance & you what do you expect?


----------



## gamesquest1 (Apr 22, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Some people find it hilarious because they are arrogant. If you make a robot who can think on its own & you give him guidance of what to follow because that is good for him & he doesn't do that & that robot goes against your guidance & you what do you expect?


no, many people find it hilarious, because people like you are arrogant narcissists, I know and have know many humble muslims, who don't try to ram their shit down your neck, if anything, what you do would turn people away from being a muslim, so you are single handedly turning people against your faith, its the exact same thing as fanboys with game systems, if I say "wow I like Nintendo games, the switch is really good and brings lots of enjoyment and happiness to my life" people might think "oh wow I guess maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, I should switch *badum tsh*"

now what your doing is classic fanboyism "NINTENDO IS THE FKN BESTT, IF YOU PLAY SONY YOU ARE A LOSER!"

see  very basic intelligence would see that what you are doing is making people thing "urrrghhhhh Nintendo is for crazy people stay the hell away from that crap"

so what you are doing is making people not want to be muslims by trying too hard to tell everyone they are wrong, your arrogance and rudeness is making people want to do the opposite of what you say, if you cant understand that you should quit trying to preach as your doing more harm to your religion than good and its thanks to people like you that mass media have the examples of crazies they need to convince everyone else how crazy muslims are.....so well done

and lets be honest the manfacturers and devs probably hate the guys that love them soooo much that everyone is put off the idea....just sayin


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> ....


*I don't care about your skin color. It's a pathetic attempt because you can't engage my arguments. Thank you for demonstrating it once again.*
Did I said skin color? Can you read that again? I said like hitler hated jews. Same way you hate Muslims.

*I never said Muslims killed millions of Jews. I said they were allies and both hated Jews. Please learn to read and don't accuse me of things I did not write.

Evidence 1: Type in "Muslim SS" in a search engine and see for yourself.
E.g. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AHraEEvNL._SX330_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Evidence 2 (Hitler prefered Islam over Christianity):
"The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"
"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers [...] then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#Hitler.27s_views_on_Islam*

You mean 1billion muslims were allied with hitler or just 30 to 40? Again why don't you understand my point. As I said before if someone doesn't follow the teachings of Islam. How dare you to even call them Muslims? Names doesn't matter. I believe Hitler was a racist shit like you.
What do you want to prove from this *https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51AHraEEvNL._SX330_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg?*
I can make images like that. I can add your picture there. If this image is real why didn't historian wrote Muslims joined Nazis? If I add your image there would it make you nazi?

By Hitler saying that what it has to do with us? It's his opinion.

*I didn't say his faith in Christianity was weak. Learn to read. He thought Christianity was weak. He preferred Islam in terms of how well it fits warfare.*

So if he thought that what it has to do with us?

*
What the F are you talking about? I never said any of this! I said the Jew hatred in Europe is increasing due to the increased Muslim population in Europe. Europeans - for the most part - no longer hate Jews. Many Jews feel threatened in areas where there are many Muslims. They would not openly wear Jewish hats for example. Some are already leaving Europe.
*
If jews hate Muslims. Then thats there racist opinion. So Muslims threatened jews. Ok if someone tells you Muslim threatened us while he has no proof. What the logic to believe such thing? Just cuz you hate us Muslims that doesn't give you proof. You can check the Europe situation. Muslims are more threatened then any other person there & Muslims are leaving from there bcz racist people like you are bullying them by calling them terrorists n stuff. While they have nothing to do with it.



*Speaking of making peace. Muhammad killed the last tribe of Jews in Medina by lining up the men and beheading them (at least 600 according to Islamic sources). Only boys without puberty hair and women/girls were left alive and taken as slaves. Doesn't that sound a lot like an ISIS video? Be honest. Are you willing to criticize Muhammad for it?*
Do you have any reference where it says Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) killed innocent jews? They defended themselves. If someone comes at your house to kill you. Would you say to him come we'll have a cup of tea? & why are you mixing up the slaves thing. There is no such thing written. Why do you add up thing which is not there? 


*If ISIS members say they are Muslims, then they are Muslims. If Mormons or Jehovah's Wittnesses say the are Christians, then they are Christians. Who are we to judge what is a Muslim/Christian?*
Thats why I said to you learn the fact. If you kill yourself by blowing up on the streets while screaming Allahu Akbar does that makes you Muslim? You are a very illogical & uneducated person.
*
You know what? ISIS members would say YOU are not a Muslim. You don't want to fight for Allah, that's why you are fake Muslim. You know who agrees with them? MUHAMMAD! *
LOL go do some study by people claiming themselves whatever they want doesn't make them that.
*
READ AGAIN:
"It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the* *Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said*: *One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.*" 
What is the way of Allah? First go learn what is the way of Allah then read this again. You say you don't have any agenda then why do you cherry pick verses to claim yourself right? While you don't have clue what it means. As I said earlier you & ISIS have same believe because you both think that way without learning facts.



*Again you didn't attack the argument. You attacked me personally. Show me that my argument is illogical:

I'll try one more time: One of my arguments (in short) about terrorism is as follows:
Argument: The claim Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is wrong.
Reason 1: Terrorists believe they will be rewarded with paradise for fighting and dying for their Muslim faith.
Reason 2: Social problems (exclusion, lack of job opportunity etc) is only one part of the story. If Islam has nothing do with it terrorism, why don't we see weekly terror attacks committed by poor Hindus or Buddhists?
*
Again If you don't have education & you said i'm learned ones that makes no sense. So your claim about Islam having relation with terrorists is totally irrelevant.

Terrorist believe that. That doesn't make fact like you believe Muslims are terrorist while you can't prove it that doesn't make fact.

Because you are blind & you ignore others most of the crimes that are done in this era are by non-muslims. Your brain are been controlled by media like if a Muslims steals a candy it becomes the headline of every news channel & if a non-muslim kills a person they just show it like 1min. What do you expect?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



gamesquest1 said:


> ...


Can you prove there is no God & how did you came to existence from nothing? & How can this design of yours doesn't have a creator behind it?


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Apr 22, 2017)

Err, I stop you right here. Muslims historically always prefered Jews to Christians. And 'antisemitic' contains 'semitic'. Both Jews and Muslims are from Semitic origins. In Morocco, Jews always had a privileged role in the State and many vizeers were Jew. During WWII, Morocco, theorically under French protectorate, refused to obey Vichy's regime (yeah, Pétain the coward who was directly executing Hitler's orders in France). They offered Jewish people a place to live in until De Gaulle and Churchill arrived in 1942.
@UltraDolphinRevolution Man, are you aware that we can say the same thing about Christians? Following directly the Bible, you wouldn't even be allowed to go in school because, surprise! It teaches that Earth gravitates around the sun and that creationism is utterly bullshit.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Haider Raza said:


> Can you prove there is no God & how did you came to existence from nothing? & How can this design of yours doesn't have a creator behind it?



No, but I can easily prove that the existence of God is all but necessary. And following Occam's razor, it's better to assume God doesn't exist since it is only an unnecessary heypotesis. You should read Hawking.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

@StarTrekVoyager: I mostly agree with your latest post. I was just pointing out a fact after being compared to Hitler. Many Europeans are accused of being like Nazis when they don't embrace massive Muslim immigration. Actually, Nazis didn't hate Muslims. Their hatred was aimed at Russians and Jews. I leave it at that.


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> @StarTrekVoyager: I mostly agree with your latest post. I was just pointing out a fact after being compared to Hitler. Many Europeans are accused of being like Nazis when they don't embrace massive Muslim immigration. Actually, Nazis didn't hate Muslims. Their hatred was aimed at Russians and Jews. I leave it at that.


Actually, it's just that left-wing people often do the stupid mashup anti-immigration->xenophobia->Nazi.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Did I said skin color? Can you read that again? I said like hitler hated jews. Same way you hate Muslims.


Islam is not a race. Islam originated in Arabia, but can be found in North Africa, former Persia, Europe and so on. Don't call people racist if you don't know the definition. However, I really don't care if you call me that. It has been misused so many times, more and more people stop caring about it.



Haider Raza said:


> As I said before if someone doesn't follow the teachings of Islam. How dare you to even call them Muslims?


I'm not the name police, neither are you. You say ISIS is not Muslim, yet they follow Muhammad's past Mekka period much more than you do. You say it was self defense when Muhammad ordered 600 Jews to be lined up and beheaded. Well, ISIS would say the same thing. Poor excuse. It's funny how Islam "defended itself" across half the world, even to India and beyond. The Nazis probably also claimed self-defence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza
There you can read about the details and references.
You are a hypocrite, condemned by your own prophet (for rejecting fighting Jihad; I won't quote it a third time). 
Fighting in the way of Allah is not calling me names. It's taking a weapon and fighting the unbelievers. They (Muslims) fight in the name of Allah, they slay and are slain (Sure 9, 111).



Haider Raza said:


> I believe Hitler was a racist shit like you.


And I think Muhammad was a pedophile like you.

You can't argue. That's why you resort to name calling. Discussion is over unless you apologize.


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> ......


*Islam is not a race. Islam originated in Arabia, but can be found in North Africa, former Persia, Europe and so on. Don't call people racist if you don't know the definition. However, I really don't care if you call me that. It has been misused so many times, more and more people stop caring about it.*
Now a day religions & non-religion (Atheist) became kind of race. Like you hate Muslims because you are an atheist or buddhist or hindu. & I also don't give a flying F about your opinion. I'm just here to spread the truth.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza*
Have you just believed this. What is said in there have you got references of history from there?

Here read this.


Spoiler: Copy/paste of the entire internet



Content:

1. Introduction
2. Jewish tribes Made a Pact with Muslims
3. Events that Occurred Before Quraiza Incident
4. Prophet Muhammed Thwarted Their Plans
5. Banu Qurayza Siding, Waging War and Supplying Enemies with Weapons
6. Banu Qurayza were Left to Face the Music Alone
7. Who were Killed?
8. Were Children Killed?
9. Were All the Banu Qurayza Men Killed?
10. How Many Men of the Quraiza were Killed?
11. Anti-Semitism Claim
12. Conclusion

*1.* *Introduction*

The aim of this article is to examine an episode in the life time of Prophet Muhammed (p), concerning the Banu Qurayza warrior-men being killed. In this piece, we will respond to claims orientalists and other critics have made regarding this incident of the Arab Jewish tribe, Banu Qurayza.

For many reasons, it is obvious that this episode of the Banu Qurayza incident has had a lot of attention from non-Muslim scholars and apologists. But, we find a lot of their conclusions about it has either been lacking substance in showing the true picture of the event or deliberately misconstrued this historical event in showing Prophet Muhammed (p) in a bad light for allowing Sa’d ibn Mu’adh (a former Jew) to judge those that committed treachery.

*2. Jewish tribes made a Pact with Muslims*

The Muslims, fleeing persecution from Makkah, found Medina (Yathrib) a safe sanctuary to live in. Shortly after the persecuted Muslims arrived and welcomed in Medina. They made a pact with the Jewish tribe Banu Quraiza (and other tribes) that so it happens if an enemy were to attack Madinah, they would all protect each other and will not aid the enemy in any way. These facts are related to us in a number of early sources:

“… To the Jew who follows us belongs help and equality. He shall not be wronged nor shall his enemies be aided. The peace of the believers is invisible … The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war so long as they are fighting alongside the believers… The Jews must bear their expenses and the Muslims their expenses. *Each must help the other against anyone who attacks the people of this document*. They must seek mutual advice and consultation, and loyalty is a protection against treachery. A man is not liable for his ally’s misdeeds. The wronged must be helped. The Jews must pay with the believers so long as war lasts. Yathrib shall be a sanctuary for the people of this document. …. Quraysh and their helpers shall not be given protection. The contracting parties are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib. If they are called to make peace and maintain it they must do so; and if they make a similar demand on the Muslims it must be carried out except in the case of a holy war. Every one shall have his portion from the side to which he belongs; the Jews of al-Aws, their freedmen and themselves have the same standing with the people of this document in pure loyalty from the people of this document.” *[1]*



Mawsili:

“The first treaty which the Messenger of God concluded with the Jews of Medina took place when he concluded a truce with the Nadir, Qurayza, and Qaynuqa in Medina, stipulating that they refrain from supporting the pagans and help the Muslims. …” *[2]*

The above evidences show that the Muslims and Banu Quraiza (and other tribes) in Madinah made a pact that no one will help an enemy against any of them. But, as we shall soon witness, this is exactly what the Banu Quraiza did against the Muslims!

*3. Events that occurred Before Quraiza incident*

The events that took place prior to the killing of the treacherous Banu Quraiza warrior-men, 1400 years ago.

With the help of the Jewish tribe, Banu Nadir, the polytheist Quraish leader Abu Sufyan had rounded up a force of 10.000 men to attack Madinah and kill the Muslims once for all. All Muhammed (p) could gather to fight back against Quraish was 3000 men; and they adopted a new way of defending the city of Madinah by digging a trench around where Muslims resided in Medina so that the enemy warriors couldn’t easily attack the Muslims inside the city. The idea of digging up a trench was suggested by a Persian Muslim convert Salman Al Farisi.

When the polytheists attacked Madina, the Muslims were under siege for two weeks.

Abu Sufyan’s army was thrown aback by the design made for the defence of the city i.e., the great trench made around Madina where the Muslims resided, without which they were open, weak to cavalry attack. The offensive enemy found themselves unprepared for such an unexpected defence when they arrived. On the other hand, while the Muslims were busy protecting the community from the deadly attack of the confederates, the Medinan Jewish tribe, Banu Qurayza were busy making negotiations with the polytheists of Makkah to turn against Muhammed (p). Authentic reports state that the polytheists and Quraiza were in negotiations:

Ibn Ishaq:

“The enemy of God Huyayy b. Akhtab al-Nadri went out to Ka’b b. Asad al-Qurazi who had made a treaty with the apostle. When Ka’b heard of Huyayy’s coming he shut the door of his fort in his face, and when he asked permission to enter he refused to see him, saying that he was a man of ill omen and that he himself was in treaty with Muhammad and did not intend to go back on his word because he had always found him loyal and faithful. Then Huyayy accused him of shutting him out because he was unwilling to let him eat his corn. This so enraged him that he opened his door. He said ‘Good heavens, Ka’b, I have brought you immortal fame and a great army. I have come with Quraysh with their leaders and chiefs which I have halted where the torrent-beds of Ruma meet; and Ghatafan with their leaders and chiefs which I have halted in Dhanab Naqma towards Uhud. They have made a firm agreement and promised me that they will not depart until we have made an end of Muhammad and his men.’ Ka’b said: ‘By God, you have brought me immortal shame and an empty cloud which has shed its water while it thunders and lightens with nothing in it. Woe to you Huyayy, leave me as I am, for I have always found him loyal and faithful.’ Huyayy kept on wheedling Ka’b* until at last he gave way* in giving him a solemn promise that if Quraysh and Ghatafan returned without having killed Muhammad he would enter his fort with him and await his fate. Thus Ka’b broke his promise and cut loose from the bond that was between him and the apostle.” *[3]*



Al-Tabari:

“The enemy of God, Huyayy b. Akhtab, went out and came to Ka’b b. Asad al-Qurazi, who was the possessor of the treaty and covenant of the Banu Qurayzah. Ka’b had made a truce with the Messenger of God for his people, making a contract and covenanting with him on it. When Ka’b heard Huyayy b. Akhtab, he shut his fortress in his face. Huyayy asked to be allowed in, but Ka’b refused to open to him. Huyayy called to him, ‘Ka’b, open to me!’ ‘Woe to you, Huyayy,’ answered Ka’b, ‘you are a man who brings bad luck! I have made a treaty with Muhammad and will not break the pact that exists between me and him. I have seen nothing but faithfulness and truth on his part.’ Huyayy said: ‘Woe to you! Open to me, and I will speak to you!’ ‘I will not do it,’ said Kab.
Huyayy said, ‘ By God, you have shut me out only on account of your gruel, lest I should eat any of it with you.’ This angered the man, so that he opened to him. Huyayy said: ‘Woe to you, Ka’b! I have brought you everlasting might and an overflowing sea. I have brought you Quraysh, with their leaders and chiefs, and have caused them to encamp where the stream beds meet at Rumah, and Ghatafan, with their leaders and Chiefs, and have caused them to encamp at Dhanab Naqama beside UHUD.
They have made a treaty and covenant with me not to withdraw until they root out Muhammed and *THOSE WHO ARE WITH HIM*.’ Ka’b b. Asad said to him: ‘By God, you have brought me everlasting humiliation – a cloud that has already sheds its water, that thunders and lightens but has nothing in it. Woe to you! Leave me to continue with Muhammad as I am now, for I have seen nothing from Muhammed except truth and faithfulness.’
But Huyayy kept wheedling Ka’b *UNTIL HE YIELDED TO HIM*, Huyayy having given him a promise and oath by God that ‘If Quraysh and Ghatafan retreat without having killed Muhammed, I will enter your fortresses with you, so that whatever happens to you shall happen to me.’ So Ka’b b. Asad broke his treaty and renounced the bond that had existed between him and the Messenger of God.” *[4]*

From the above reports, we see that Huyayy b. Akhtab al-Nadri visited Ka’b b. Asad al-Qurazi house on changing his mind to break his pact and that he should join the enemies of the Muslims in order to slaughter the Muslim community.

At first Ka’b b. Asad al-Qurazi was not convinced and tried avoiding what Huyayy b. Akhtab was saying but eventually, as the report informs us, Ka’b b. Asad gave in and sided with the enemies of Muhammed (p) to fight against the Muslims.

*4.* *Prophet Muhammed (p) Thwarted Their Plans*

Reading the above reports, we see that the Muslims were surrounded from all sides during the siege, Muhammed (p) had no choice left at this point but send Nu’aym Ibn Mas’ud, to divide his enemies from within.

Ibn Ishaq:

“Then Nu’aym b. Mas’ud b. Amir b. Unayf b. Tha’alaba b. Qunfud b. Hilal b. Kalawa b. Ashja b. Rayth b. Ghatafan came to the apostle saying that he had become a Muslim though his own people did not know of it, and let him give what orders he would. The Prophet said: ‘You are only one man among us, so go and awake distrust among the enemy to draw them off from us if you can, for there is deceit in war. Thereupon, Nu’aym went off to B. Quryaza, with whom he had been a boon companion in His heathen days, and reminded them of his affection for them and of the special tie between them. When they acknowledged that they did not suspect him he said: ‘Quraysh and Ghatafan are not like you; the land is your land, your property, your wives, and your children are in it; you cannot leave it and go somewhere else. Now Quraysh and Ghatafan have come to fight Muhammad and his companions and you have aided against him, but their land, their property, and their wives are not here, so they are not like you. If they see an opportunity they will make the most of it; but if things go badly they will go back to their own land and leave you to face the man in your country and you will not be able to do so if you are left alone. So do not fight along with these people until you take hostages from their chiefs who will remain in your hands as a security that they will fight Muhmmad with you until you make an end of him.’ The Jews said that this was excellent advice.

Then he went to Quraysh and said to Abu Sufyan b. Harb and his company: ‘You know my affection for you and that I have left Muhammad. Now I have heard something which I think it my duty to tell you of by way of warning, but regard it as confidential.’ When they said that they would, he continued, ‘Mark my words, the Jews have regretted their action in opposing Muhammad and have sent to tell him so, saying: ‘Would you like us to get hold of some chiefs of the two tribes of Quraysh and Ghatafan and hand them over to you so that you can cut their heads off? Then we can join you in exterminating the rest of them. He has sent word back to accept their offer; so if the Jews send to you to demand hostages, don’t send them a single man.’

Then he went to Ghatafan and said: ‘You are my stock and my family, the dearest of men to me, and I do not think that you can suspect me.’ They agreed that he was above suspicion, and so he told them the same story as he had told Quraysh. On the night of the Sabbath of Shawwal 5 A.H., it occurred by divine providence that Abu Sufyan and the chiefs of Ghatafan sent Ikrima b. Abu Jahl to B. Qurayza with some of their selected men saying that they had no permanent camp, that the horses and camels were dying; therefore they must make ready for battle and make an end of Muhammad once and for all. They replied that it was the Sabbath, a day on which ritually do no work, and it was well known what had happened to those of their people who had violated the Sabbath. They added: ‘Moreover we will not fight Muhammad along with you until you give us hostages whom we can hold as security until we make an end of Muhammad; for we fear that if the battle goes against you and you suffer heavily you will withdraw at once to you country and leave us alone with the man in our country, and we cannot face him alone.’

When the messengers returned with their reply, the Quraysh and Ghatafan said that what Nu’aym told them was thus the truth. Then they resolved: ‘Send to B. Qurayza that we will not give them a single man, and if they want to fight let them come out and fight.’ Having received this message from the Quraysh, B. Quryaza said: ‘What Nu’aym told you is the truth. The people are bent on fighting and if they get an opportunity they will take advantage of it; but if they do not they will withdraw to their own country and leave us to face this man alone here. So send word to them that we will not fight Muhammad with them until they give us hostages as a security.’ But the Quraysh and the Ghatafan refused to do so, and God sowed distrust between them and sent very strong cold wind against them in those winter nights which upset their cooking-pots and overthrew their tents.

Then Abu Sufyan said: ‘O Quraysh, we are not in a permanent camp; the horses and camels are dying; the B. Qurayza have broken their word to us and we have heard disquieting reports of them. You can see the violence of the wind which leaves us with neither cooking-pots, nor fire, nor tents to count on. Be off, for I am going! Then he went to his camel which was hobbled, mounted it, and beat it so that it got up on its legs… The Ghatafan heard of what the Quraysh expectedly did, that they broke up and returned to their own country.
In the following morning, the Prophet and the Muslims left the trench and returned to Medina, laying their arms aside. *[5]*

Al-Tabari:

When the news of the treachery of B. Qurayza reached the Messenger of God and the Muslims, the Messenger of God sent out Sa’d b. Mu’adh b. al-Nu’man b. Imru al-Qays (one of the Banu Abd al-Ashhal who at that time was the chief of al-Aws), Sa’d b. Ubadah b. Dulaym (one of the Banu Sa’idah b. Kab b. al-Khazraj who at that time was the chief of al-Khazraj), and with them Abdullah b. Rawahah (a member of the Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraji) and Khawwat b. Jubayr (a member of the Banu Amr b. Awf), and said:
‘Go and see whether what has reached us about these men is true or not. If it is true, speak to me in words that we can understand but that will be unintelligible to others, and do not break the strength of the people. But if these men remain loyal to the pact between us and them, announce it to the people.’
So they went out and came to the B. Qurayza. They found that they were actually guilty of worst of what had been reported about them! They slandered the Messenger of God and said, ‘There is no treaty between us and Muhammad and no covenant.’ Sa’d b. Ubadah reviled them and they reviled him – Sa’d was a man with sharp temper.
So Sa’d b. Mu’adh said to him, ‘Stop reviling them, for the disagreement between us and them is too serious for an exchange of taunts.’ The two Sa’d’s and the men with them went back to the Messenger of God, and having greeted him, said, ‘Adal and al-Qarah!’ [They meant that it was like the treachery of Adal and al-Qarah to the companions of the Messenger of God who were betrayed at al-Raji)’.(Khubayb b. Adi and his Companions..
The Messenger of God said: ‘God is the greatest! Rejoice, people of the Muslims!’” *[6] [7]*



In simple words, Nuyam was sent to disunite the enemies within so as to weaken them and wouldn’t have the chance of attacking the Muslim community all together at once. Hence, Prophet (p) succeeded in this.

*5.* *Banu Qurayza Siding, Waging War and Supplying Enemies with Weapons*

Besides the foregoing evidences for the Banu Qurayza siding with the enemy, there are further evidences that the Banu Qurayza were also arming the enemy of the Muslims with weapons and supplies. Conclusively, there are evidences in other historical reports that the Banu Qurayza actively fought against the Muslims.

Commentary on Quran 8:55 – 58 from Tabari:

“Those of them with whom thou hast made compact, then they break their compact every time’: ‘You, Muhammed, took from them their bonds (muwathiqahum) and compacts (uhudahum) that they would not fight you nor aid anyone who fights you, like Qurayza and (people) like them, who had compacts (ahd) and treaties (aqd)’; then they break’ … : they fight you (harabuka) and aid (zaharu) against you.’ (_Al-Tabari, Tafsir, [ed. Shakir] volume 14, page 21 – 22_) *[8]*

Muqatil ibn Sulayman al-Balkhi – Muqatil Tafsir:

‘The Jews violated the compact between them and the Prophet and aided the unbelievers of Mecca by *providing them with weapons* with which to fight the Prophet and his Companions. (_Tafsir Muqatil, volume 1, 147a_) *[9]*

Tafsir Baghawi on 8:56

[This verse refers] to the Jews of Qurayza who broke the treaty between themselves and the Messenger of God by furnishing the heathen with weapons in order to help them in fighting the Prophet. But afterwards they said: ‘We forgot, and we did wrong.’ Therefore the Prophet concluded a second treaty with them, *until they broke it by inciting the unbelievers against the Messenger of God* on yawm al-Ahzab. Ka’b b. al-Ashraf *went to Mecca and established an alliance, directed against the Prophet*, between them.”(_Tafsir Baghawi, volume 2, page 257_) *[10]*



Besides the above, we also have historical Hadith shedding more light on Banu Qurayzah’s treachery:

Sahih al-Bukhari:

“Narrated Ibn `Umar: Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought (against the Prophet violating their peace treaty), so the Prophet exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places (in Medina) taking nothing from them till *THEY FOUGHT AGAINST THE PROPHET AGAIN*. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, BUT SOME OF THEM CAME TO THE PROPHET AND HE GRANTED THEM SAFETY, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa’, the tribe of `Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina.” (_Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Hadith 362_).

Sunan Abi Dawud:

“Ibn ‘Umar said ‘The Jews Al Nadir and Quraizah fought with the Apostle of Allah, so the Apostle of Allah expelled Banu Al Nadir and allowed the Quraizah to stay and favored them. *The Quraizah thereafter fought (with the Prophet)*‘. So he killed their men and divided their women, property and children among Muslims except some of them who associated with the Apostle of Allah. He gave them protection and later on they embraced Islam. The Apostle of Allah expelled all the Jews of Madeenah in toto, Banu Qainuqa, they were the people of ‘Abd Allah bin Salam, the Jews of Banu Harith and any of Jews who resided in Madeenah.” (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 19, Hadith 2999_)

Musannaf Abd al-Razzaq:

“Abd al-Razzaq on the authority of Musa b. Uqba: The Nadir and Qurayza fought the Prophet; the Prophet expelled the Nadir and agreed that Qurayza should stay. Later* QURAYZA FOUGHT THE PROPHET*. They were defeated, the men were executed, the women, children and property were divided among the Muslims. SOME OF THE JEWS RECEIVED THE AMAN (SAFETY) OF THE PROPHET and converted to Islam.” (_Musannaf Abd al-Razzaq, volume 6, pages 54 – 55_) [11]

Musnad ibn Hanbal:

“The Jews of Banu Nadir and Banu Qurayza attacked the Messenger of God. So the Messenger of God in turn expelled the Banu Nadir, but warranted the security of the B. Qurayza and made an agreement with them. [This lasted] *until the Qurayza took to military action after that*.” (_Musnad Ibn Hanbal, volume 9, page 181_) *[12]*

The following Hadith also shows that the Prophet (p) was on guard and warning his people that the Banu Qurayza tribe may attack, slaughter Muslims (this incident took place during the Battle of the Confederates):

“Carry your weapons with you for *I fear the tribe of Quraiza (may harm you)*.” (_Sahih Muslim Book 26, Hadith 5557_)



Muwatta Imam Malik:

“I went to Abu Said al-Khudri and found him praying. I sat to wait for him until he finished the prayer. I heard a movement under a bed in his room, and it was a snake. I stood up to kill it, and Abu Said gestured to me to sit. When he was finished he pointed to a room in the house and said, ‘Do you see this room?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘There was a young boy in it who had just got married. He went out with the Messenger of God, to al-*Khandaq*, (the ditch which the Muslims dug in the 5th year of the Hijra to *defend Madina against the Quraysh* and their allies). When he was there, the youth came and asked his permission, saying, “Messenger of God. Give me permission to return to my family.” The Messenger of God, gave him permission and said, “*Take your weapons with you, for I fear the Banu Quraydha (Qurayzah) tribe. They may harm you*. …” (_Muwatta Malik Book 54, Hadith 33_)

The following report from al-Waqidi (745 – 822 AD) points out to us that the men of Banu Qurayza showered the Muslims with arrows, wounding a number of Muslims:

“The elders of the banu Waqid informed me that they took their women and children to the fortress while they were with the Prophet, but they had promised to meet their families at mid day, with the permission of the Prophet. The Prophet, however, forbade them, but when they begged, he commanded them to *TAKE THEIR WEAPONS, FOR FEAR THAT THE BANU QURAYZA MIGHT ATTACK THEM*. Hilal b. Umayya used to say: I approached with a group of my people and the Banu Amr b. Awf. We had deviated from al-Jasr, and from Safna and we took the road to Quba. When we reached Aswa, all of a sudden, *A GROUP OF THEM (THE BANU QURAYZA), INCLUDING NABBASH B. QAYS AL-QURAZI SPRAYED IS WITH ARROWS FOR W WHILE*, we aimed back at them, and *SOME OF US WERE WOUNDED*. Then they withdrew to their garrison and we returned to our familes. …
…
While the Messenger of God and the Muslims were in al-Khandaq, Umar b. al-Khattab came to the Messenger of God who was in his tent – the ten was made of leather and had been put up beside the masjid, which was at the bottom of the mountain. With the Messenger of God was Abu Bakr. The Muslims at their trench were taking shifts. With them were some thirty horses. … They employed men and placed them in positions at the trench, until Umar arrived. He said, ‘O Messenger of God, it has reached me that the *BANU QURAYZA HAVE DESTROYED THE AGREEMENT ARE PREPARING FOR WAR*. That distressted the Messenger of God and he said, ‘Whom shall we sent to seek out information about them?’ Umar said, ‘al-Zubayr b. al-Awwam.’ The first of the people that the Messenger of God sent was al-Zubayr b. al-Awwam. He said, ‘God to the Banu Qurayza.’ Zubayr went and observed, then he returned and said, ‘O Messenger of God, I saw them putting their fortresses in order, and preparing the roads and they have herded their cattle.’ That was when the Messenger of God said, ‘Indeed for every Prophet is a disciple. Al-Zubayr is my disciple and the son of my aunt.’ Then the Messenger of God called for Sa’d Ibn Mu’adh and Sa’d b. Ubada and Usayd b. Hudayr. He said, ‘Indeed it has reached me that the Banu Qurayza have destroyed the agreement which was between us, and gone to war. Go and observe if what has reached me is true. If it is baseless, proclaim it aloud. If it is true say it in code and I will know. Do not undermine the support of the Muslims. … … The Messenger of God said: Indeed I hope to circumambulate the ancient house and take the key, for God will destroy Khusrau and Ceasar and their wealth will be paid in the way of God. He was saying that when he saw the suffering of the Muslims, and Mu’attib heard him and repeated what he said. Ibn Abi Sabra related to me from Harith b. al-Fudayl saying: The Banu Qurayza intended to raid the main part of Medina by night. They sent Huyayy b. Akhtab to the Quraysh to bring with them a thousand men, and from the Ghatafan a thousand, to attack them. News of that great misfortune came to the Messenger of God, so he sent Salama b. Aslam b. Huraysh al-Ashhali with two hundred men, and Zayd b. Haritha with three hundred, to protect Medina while proclaiming takbir, and with them were cavalry of the Muslims. When it was morning, they were safe. Abu Bakr al-Siddiq used to say: We feared more our children in Medina from the Qurayza than from the Quraysh and Ghatafan. I used to go to the hill of Sal’ and look at the houses of Medina. When I saw them calm, I would praise God.” (_The Life of Muhammad: Al-Waqidi’s Kitab Al-Maghazi [Translator: Rizwi Faizer] page 216 – 226_)

These (above) historical traditions show that the Banu Qurayza more than once supported the Quraysh enemy in attacking the Muslims in Madinah, financially, militarily, and giving them supplies of weapons against the Muslims. It thus shows that the Banu Qurayza weren’t innocent as Orientalists and other critics make them out to be.

*6. Banu Quraiza were left to face the music alone*

What Nu’aym Ibn Mas’ud did was indeed a victory and now the Banu Qurayza were left by themselves to face the music. Coming back from Khandaq after which the Meccan polytheists Makkans retreated, the Prophet (p) didn’t even put his armour and sword down when Angel Gabriel commanded him to march against the Banu Quraiza for what they had done.

Sahih Muslim:

“Narrated by A’isha : … When he returned from the Ditch and laid down his arms and took a bath, the angel Gabriel appeared to him and he was removing dust from his hair (as if he had just returned from the battle). The latter said: You have laid down arms. By God, we haven’t (yet) laid them down. So march against them. The Messenger of Allah asked: Where? He pointed to Banu Quraiza. So the Messenger of Allah fought against them. They surrendered at the command of the Messenger of Allah, but he referred the decision about them to Sa’d who said: I decide about them that those of them who can fight be killed, their women and children taken prisoners and their properties distributed (among the Muslims).” (_Sahih Muslim: Book 19, Hadith 4370_)

As he heard these words from Angel Gabriel, the Prophet (p) aroused his Companions (Sahaba) to march upon the Banu Qurayza tribe. They arrived and found the Banu Quraiza in their fortresses. The Prophet (p) would have forgiven them had they asked, but they preferred to resist fighting him and hurl abuse at him at the same time [Ibn Ishaq]:

“The prophet ordered it to be announced that none should perform the afternoon prayer until after he reached B. Qurayza. The apostle sent Ali forward with his banner and the men hastened to it. Ali advanced until he came near the forts *he heard insulting language used of the apostle*.” *[13]*

Instead of begging for forgiveness for what they did do against the Muslims, here we the Banu Qurayzah insulting the Prophet (p) at the same time still wanted to fight ready from their fort.

The Prophet (p) besieged them for over 3 weeks at the end they surrendered in terms that they should be left to be judged by a former Jew, by the name of Sa’d bin Mu’adh to judge them on their treachery. Hence Sa’d brought out the Torah to judge them, and he decreed by the Law of Torah (Deuteronomy) that warrior-men who participated in this be killed and the rest be enslaved or freed:

“When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. (_Bible – Deuteronomy 20:10-14_)

I find it amusing for the double standards and hypocrisy of the detractors, they attack Prophet Muhammed (p) for the judgement passed onto the Jewish tribe Banu Qurayza, from their own Book. If Christians and Jews and others find this ruling from their own book abhorrent then they should tear away such verses apart from the Bible. The blame should be on the Bible for making such rulings for those who commit treachery and wage war.

Lastly, critics always fail to tell is the judgement was not passed by Prophet Muhammed himself but by a former Jew, Sa’d Ibn Mu’adh, who was CHOSEN by the Banu Qurayza to judge their treachery according to their scriptures.

*7. Who Were Killed*?

According to historical evidences only the warrior-men were killed. Those who actively participated in the treachery and were siding in fighting against the Muslims were killed. Historical reports state the following:

Kitab Futuh al-Buldan:

The Prophet besieged banu Kuraizah for few days in Dhu-l-qa’dah, and a few days in Dhu-l-Hijjah, of the year 5 After Hejira, the whole period being fifteen days. These Banu Quraizah were among those who had assisted in the fight against the Prophet in the battle of al-Khandaq (the moat) also called battle of al-Ahzab [the confederates]. Finally they surrendered and he installed Sa’d ibn Mu’adh al-Ausi as their ruler. The latter decreed that every *ADULT BE EXECUTED*, that women and children be carried as captives and that all that they possessed be divided among the Moslems. …” (_Kitab Futuh al-Buldan, volume 1, page 40_) *[14]*



Sahih al-Bukhari:

The people of (Banu) Quraiza agreed to accept the verdict of Sa`d bin Mu`adh. So the Prophet sent for Sa`d, and the latter came (riding) a donkey and when he approached the Mosque, the Prophet said to the Ansar, “Get up for your chief or for the best among you.” Then the Prophet said (to Sa`d).” These (i.e. Banu Quraiza) have agreed to accept your verdict.” Sa`d said, “*KILL THEIR WARRIORS* and take their offspring as captives, “On that the Prophet said, “You have judged according to Allah’s Judgment,” or said, “according to the King’s judgement.”(_Sahih al-Bukhari volume 5, Book 59, Hadith 447_)



Sahih Muslim:

“It has been narrated on the authority of Ibn Umar that the Jews of Banu Nadir and Banu Quraiza fought against the Messenger of Allah who expelled Banu Nadir, and allowed Quraiza to stay on, and granted favour to them until they too fought against him *THEN HE KILLED THEIR MEN*, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, except that some of them had joined the Messenger of Allah who granted them security. They embraced Islam. The Messenger of Allah turned out all the Jews of Medina. Banu Qainuqa’ (the tribe of ‘Abdullah b. Salim) and the Jews of Banu Haritha and every other Jew who was in Medina.”(_Sahih Muslim Book 19 Hadith 4364_)



Ibn Ishaq:

The Apostle had ordered that every adult (who participated in treachery) of theirs should be killed. Shu’ba b. al-Hajjaj told me from Abdu’l-Malik b. Umayr from Atiya al-Qurzai: The Apostle had ordered that every adult of B. Qurayza should be killed. I was a lad and they found that *I was NOT AN ADULT and so they let me go*.*[15]*



Kitab al-Maghazi – al-Waqidi:

… Ibrahim b. Ja’far related to me from his father, who said: When the Banu Qurayza were killed, Husayl b. Nuwayra al-Ashjari arrived at Khaybar- he had gone for two days. The Jews of the Banu Nadir- Sallam b. Mishkam, Kinana b. Rabi b. Abi l-Huqayq and the Jews of khaybar were sitting in council to consider the news of the Qurayza. It had reached them that the Messenger of God had besieged the Qurayza, and they dreaded what it was. They said, ‘What brought you’? He said, ‘Evil. The *QURAYZA WARRIORS* were executed by the sword,’… ” *[16]*



Abu Dawud:

Ibn ‘Umar said “The Jews Al Nadir and Quraizah fought with the Apostle of Allaah, so the Apostle of Allaah expelled Banu Al Nadir and allowed the Quraizah to stay and favored them. The Quraizah thereafter fought (with the Prophet).” So *HE KILLED THEIR MEN* and divided their women, property and children among Muslims except some of them who associated with the Apostle of Allaah. He gave them protection and later on they embraced Islam. The Apostle of Allaah expelled all the Jews of Madeenah in Toto, Banu Qainuqa, they were the people of ‘Abd Allaah bin Salam, the Jews of Banu Harith and any of Jews who resided in Madeenah.” (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 19, Hadith 2999_)



Reading the above reports, one thing stands out clear, only men, “warriors” (adults), who participated in war against the Muslims were killed.

*8.* *Were Children Killed?*

A myth that has been circulating among orientalists and other critics of Islam is that children of Banu Qurayza were executed along with the men. The reports used for the allegations are the following:

Sunan an-Nasa’i:

It was narrated that Kathir bin As-Sa’ib said: “The sons of Quraizah told me that they were presented to the Messenger of Allah on the Day of Quraizah, and whoever (among them) had reached puberty, or had grown pubic hair, was killed, and whoever had not reached puberty and had not grown pubic hair was left (alive).” (_Sunan an-Nasa’i Volume 4, Book 27, Hadith 3459_).

Sunan an-Nasa’i:

“It was narrated that ‘Atiyyah said: ‘I was among the prisoners of Quraizah; we were examined, and whoever had grown (pubic) hair was killed, and whoever had not grown hair, he was allowed to live and was not killed.” (_Sunan an-Nasa’I volume 5, Book 46, Hadith 4984_).

Jami at-Tirmidhi:

“Narrated ‘Atiyyah Al-Qurazi: “We were presented to the Messenger of Allah on the day of (the battle of) Quraizah. Whoever had pubic hair was killed and whoever did not was left to his way. I was of those who did not have pubic hair so I was left to my way.” (_Jami` at-Tirmidhi, volume 3, Book 19, Hadith 1584_)

Reading the above reports, some claim that kids were among those killed of the Banu Qurayza.

However, what critics fail to mention, or deliberately leave out, is that “pubic hair” was not the only factor used in this incident. We have a report from early Islamic scholar Al-Shaybani (Born: 749 AD, died 805) telling us that revelation was sent down to Prophet Muhammed (p) instructing him that puberty was the limit of their penal responsibility as fighting warriors those who willingly participated in this:

Al-Shaybani’s opinion is different: he points out that there are differences in the age of puberty between various peoples (for instance between Turks and Indians). But in the case of Banu Qurayza the Prophet disclosed to Sa’d b. Mu’adh (on the basis of a revelation) that their age of puberty *WAS THE LIMIT OF THEIR PENAL RESPONSIBILITY AS FIGHTING PERSON*” (_Al-Shaybani, op. cit., volume 2, page 591_) *[17]*

Some may ask, what is penal responsibility?

Penal responsibility, or criminal responsibility, refers to a person’s ability to understand when the crime was committed. A person is responsible and could go to jail having fully known at the time of the crime what they did, and that they understood the implications.

So besides the prerequisite for pubic hair, the treacherous Banu Qurayza were also checked out for having possessed the requisite state of mind when they committed the treachery.

Hence, those who understood clearly and were aware that what they did were the only ones who were killed. Those who didn’t understand the crime because they don’t know what was right or wrong (even though having pubic hair), were not touched.

To recap, the historical reports already mentioned all quite clearly state that people who were killed for actively been involved in this treachery were:

“Men”

“Warriors”

“Adults”

In fact one of those who witnessed everything explicitly states in a report in Ibn Ishaq that only adults who actively engaged in this treachery were killed;

“Shu’ba b. al-Hajjaj told me from Abdu’l-Malik b. Umayr from Atiya al-Qurzai: The Apostle had ordered that every adult of B. Qurayza should be killed. I was a lad and they found that* I was not an adult and so they let me go*” *[18]*



So for critics to claim that children were killed is a lie which has no historical basis. Furthermore, there are countless Hadiths where Prophet Muhammed (p) categorically and unequivocally forbade the killing of children:

Sahih al-Bukhari:

“Narrated Ibn `Umar: During some of the Ghazawat of Allah’s Messenger a woman was found killed, so Allah’s Messenger forbade the killing of women and children.” (_Sahih al-Bukhari volume 4, Book 52, Hadith 258_)

Sunan Abi Dawud:

“It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet saw a woman who had been killed on the road, and he forbade killing women and children.” (_Sunan Abi Dawud, volume 4, Book 24, Hadith 2841_).

Jami at-Tirmidhi:

That a woman was found killed in one of the expeditions of the Messenger of Allah, so the Messenger of Allah rebuked that, and he prohibited killing women and children. (_Jami` at-Tirmidhi Volume 3, Book 19, Hadith 1569_)

Sunan Abi Dawud:

“Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet said: Go in Allah’s name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah’s Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well.” (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 14, Hadith 2608_).

Muwatta Malik:

“Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. …” (_Muwatta Malik Book 21, Hadith 10_).

Sunan al-Bayhaqi:

“The Messenger of God forbade those whom he sent to Ibn Abi l-Huqayq to kill women and children.(_Sunan al-Bayhaqi, volume 9, page 78_) *[19]*



*9.* *Were all the Banu Qurayza Men Killed?*

Another myth propagated is that not a single man of the Qurayza was left alive. Thus they call it “genocide”. This claim again when we scratch the surface of it will be seen as nothing but lie based on distortion of historical facts.

The most authoritative book in Islam is the Quran. The Quran indicates that some of them lived and some were killed:

“And He brought down those who supported them among the People of the Scripture from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts [so that] *a party you killed*, and you took captive a party” – Qur’an 33:26.

The Book of Hadiths also report to us some were killed and some were left alive:

Sahih Bukhari:

“Narrated Ibn `Umar: Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought (against the Prophet violating their peace treaty), so the Prophet exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places (in Medina) taking nothing from them till they fought against the Prophet again. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, *BUT SOME OF THEM CAME TO THE PROPHET AND HE GRANTED THEM SAFETY*, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa’, the tribe of `Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina.” (_Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Hadith 362_)

Al-Musannaf abd al-Razzaq:

“Abd al-Razaq on the authority of Musa b. Uqba: The Nadir and Qurayza fought the Prophet; the Prophet expelled the Nadir and agreed that Qurayza should stay. Later Qurayza fought the Prophet. They were defeated, the men were executed, the women, children and property were divided among the Muslims. *SOME OF THE JEWS RECEIVED THE AMAN (SAFETY) OF THE PROPHET* and converted to Islam. (_Al-Musannaf abd al-Razzaq, volume 6, page 54_) *[20]*



Kitab Futuh al-Buldan:

“… The Prophet pressed siege against banu Quraizah until they surrendered to Sa’d ibn Mu’adh who decreed that their men be executed, their children be taken as captives and their possessions be divided. Accordingly, *A CERTAIN NUMBER OF MEN WERE PUT TO DEATH ON THAT DAY*.” (_Kitab Futuh al-Buldan, volume 1, page 41_) *[21]*



Sunan Abi Dawud:

Ibn ‘Umar said “The Jews Al Nadir and Quraizah fought with the Apostle of God, so the Apostle of God expelled Banu Al Nadir and allowed the Quraizah to stay and favored them. The Quraizah thereafter fought (with the Prophet).” So he killed their men and divided their women, property and children among Muslims *EXCEPT SOME OF THEM WHO ASSOCIATED WITH THE APOSTLE OF GOD. HE GAVE THEM PROTECTION AND LATER ON THEY EMBRACED ISLAM*. The Apostle of God expelled all the Jews of Madinah, Banu Qainuqa, they were the people of ‘Abd Allaah bin Salam, the Jews of Banu Harith and any of Jews who resided in Madeenah.” (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 19, Hadith 2999_)

I would like to emphasize here those that did receive pardon, later converted to Islam freely. Forced conversion is forbidden (Haram) in Islam. They were most probably pardoned because they weren’t involved in the treachery. In fact, the last Hadith (above) in Sunan Abi Dawud quoted, clearly states they were freed and “later” embraced Islam.

We also have definitive proof from a number of early historical sources, specifically mentioning names of Banu Qurayzah men who were left alive because they didn’t participate in this treachery in waging war against the Muslims.

Al-Tabari:

“…Tha’labah b. Sa’yah, Usayd b. Sa’yah, and Asad b. Ubayd – a group of men from the Banu Hadl, not from the Banu Qurayzah or al-Nadir [their genealogy was superior to that], but cousins of the men in question – became Muslims the night that Qurayzah submitted to the judgment of the Messenger of God. During that night, Amr b. Su’da al-Qurazi went out and passed by the guards of the Messenger of God – Muhammad b. Maslamah al-Ansari was in charge of them that night. When the latter saw Amr, he said, ‘Who said it?’ Amr b. Su’da,’ he replied. Amr had refused to go along with the Banu Qurayzah in their treachery toward the Messenger of God. ‘Never’, he had said, ‘Will I act treacherously toward Muhammad.’ Having recognized him, Muhammad b. Maslamah said, ‘O Noble’ – and he let him pass. Amr went his way and spent that night in the mosque of the Messenger of God in Medina. Then he went away, and no one knows to this day into which of God’s lands he went. His story was mentioned to the Messenger of God who said, “He was a man whom God rescued for his loyalty.” According to Ibn Ishaq: Some men allege that he was bound with an old frayed rope along with the Banu Qurayzah who were bound when they submitted to the judgement of the Messenger of God. In the morning his rope was cast aside, and no one knew where he had gone. …” *[22]*



Ibn Ishaq:

“Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri told me that Thabit b. Qays b. al-Shammas had gone to al-Zabir b. Bata al-Qurazi who was Abu Abdu-l-Rahman. Al-Zabir had spared Thabit during the pagan era. One of al-Zabir’s sons told me that he had spared him on the day of Bu’ath, having captured him and cut off his forelock and then let him go. Thabit came to him (he was then an old man) and asked him if he knew him, to which he answered, ‘Would a man like me not recognize a man like you?’ He said: ‘I want to repay for your service to me. ‘He said, ‘The noble repays the noble.’
Thabit went to the Apostle and told him that al-Zabir had spared his life and he wanted to repay him for it, and the Apostle said that his life would be spared. When he returned and told him that the Apostle had spared his life he said, ‘What does an old man without family and without children want with life?’ Thabit went again to the Apostle, who promised to give him his wife and children. When he told him he said, ‘How can a household in the Hijaz live without property?’ Thabit secured the Apostle’s promise that his property would be restored and came and told him so, and he said, ‘O Thabit, what has become of him whose face was like a Chinese mirror in which the virgins of the tribe could see themselves, Ka’b b. Asad?’ ‘Killed,’ he said.

‘And what of the prince of the Desert and the sown, Huyayy b. Akhtab?’ ‘Kiled.’ And what of our vanguard when we attacked and our rearguard when we fled (T. returned to the charge), Azzal b. Samaw’al?’ ‘Killed.’ ‘And what of the two assemblies?’ meaning b. Ka’b b. Qurayza and B. Amr b. Qurayza. ‘killed’. He said, ‘Then I ask of you, Thabit by my claim on you that you join me with my people, for life holds no joy now that they are dead, and I cannot bear to wait another moment to meet my loved ones.’ So Thabit went up to him and struck off his head.
…
Thabit b. Qays said concerning that, mentioning al-Zabir b. Bata:
My obligation is ended; I was noble and persistent when others swerved from steadfastness. Zabir had a greater claim than any man on me And when his wrists were bound with cords I went to the Apostle that I might free him. To Apostle was a very sea of generosity to us.” *[23]*



Kitab Al-Maghazi – Al-Waqidi:

… al-Zabir b. bata had done a favour for Thabot b. Qays on the day of Bu’ath. Thabit came to al-Zabir and said, ‘O Abu Abd al-Rahman, do you know me?’ He replied, ‘Do you think one like me will not know the likes of you.’ Thabir said, ‘You have done me a good deed and I want to repay you.’ Zabir replied, ‘Indeed the noble reward the noble. I am in the greatest need of your help today.’ Thabit came to the Messenger of God and said, ‘O messenger of God, Zabir helped me when my hopes were cut off on the day of Bu’ath. I mentioned this good deed to you, for I desire to help him, so give him to me.’ The Messenger of God said, ‘He is for you.’ Then Tabit came to Zabir and said, ‘ Indeed the Messenger of God has given you to me.’ Al-Zabir said, ‘I am an old man. I have no family or son or wealth in Yathrib. What will I do with my life?’ So Thabit came to the Messenger of God and said, ‘O Messenger of God, give me his son.’ So he gave him his son. Then he said, ‘O Messenger of God, give me his property and his family.’ So the Messenger of God gave Thabit Zabir’s property, son and family.
Thabit returned to al-Zabir and said, ‘Indeed the Messenger of God has given me your son and your property and your family.’ Zabir said, ‘O Thabit, you have rewarded me and repaid your debt, but, what has happened to him whose face is like a Chinese mirror, in which virgins of the neighbourhood could see themselves, Ka’b b. Asad?’ He said, ‘He is killed.’ Al-Zabir said, ‘What happened to the master of the cities and the desert, the lord of the two neighbourhoods who carries them in war and deeds them at home, Huyayy b. Akhtab?’ He said, ‘He is killed.’

Al-Zabir said, ‘What happened to the leader of the vanguard of the Jews at war when they charge, and their protector at the back when they retreat, Ghazzal b. Samaw’al?’ He said, ‘He is killed.’
…

Al-zabir said, ‘O Thabit? What good is life after those? Must I return to the home they were living in to stay after them? I do not desire that. Indeed I ask you in return for my debt to send me forward and kill me with the killing of the nobility of the Banu Qurayza. Take my sword for surely it is sharp, and strike me with it, and finish it off. Raise your hand away from the food and bring it closer to the head, lower from the brain. Indeed it is best that the body remain with the neck. O Thabit, I am impatient to find my loved ones.’
…
‘O Thabir, send me forward and kill me.’ Thabit said, ‘I will not kill you.’ Al-Zabir said, ‘I do not care who kills me! But, O Thabit, see to my wife and my son for they anxious about death. Ask your friend to releasethem and return their property. I will go towards Al-Zubayr b. al-Awwam.’ He reproached al-Zubayr and al-Zubayr struck off his head.
Thabit asked the Messenger of God about his wife and his property and his son. The Messenger of God returned all of that to his son. He set his wife free, and he returned their property of dates and camels and clothes, but not the weapons, to them. They stayed with the family of Thabit b. Qays b. Shammas. *[24]*



Although Zabir Thabit was forgiven for taking part in this, he none the less, sadly wanted to be killed since his other friends were killed because of the treachery they were involved in. Notice, the Muslims didn’t want to kill him but he insisted on it.

Moreover, the above reports show that his family actively participated in this treachery and wanted to wage war against the Muslims. Notice the words that were used that they got everything back except “their weapons”. Showing that some of the family members were also liable for death penalty hadn’t it been for one of the Companions of the Prophet (p) intervening on their behalf by being forgiving them. The Prophet in his noble, merciful character let all the family go and they got everything back; they walked away free including Zabir’s grown son.

Islamic scholars also mention a number of Banu Quraiza men’s names who were left alive for their faithfulness in not getting involved in this treachery.

Imam Shafi’i , a prominent second-century scholar, says:

“…not all of them took part in aiding against the Prophet and his Companions, but all of them remained in their stronghold and did not abandon the treacherous people from among them, *EXCEPT A SMALL PARTY (NAFAR) AND THIS (ACTION) SAVED THEIR LIVES AND KEPT THEIR POSSESSIONS IN THEIR HANDS*“. *[25]*



Shaykh Muhammed Al-Ghazali says:

“The siege continued for twenty-five days during which the Muslims allowed the Jews who had refused to betray the Prophet during the Battle of the Ditch *TO LEAVE AND GO WHEREVER THEY WISHED AS A REWARD FOR THEIR FAITHFULNESS*. *[26]*



Islamic scholar, Syed Maududi:

From among the prisoners of the Banu Quraizah, the Holy *Prophet forgave* Zabir bin Bata and ‘Amr bin Sa’d (or Ibn Su’da), the former because he had given refuge to Hadrat Thabit bin Qais Ansari in the Battle of Bu’ath, in the pre-Islamic days of ignorance; therefore, he handed him over to Hadrat Thabit that he may repay him for his favor. And he forgave ‘Amr bin Sa`d because it was he who was exhorting his tribe not to be treacherous when the Bani Quraizah were committing breach of the trust with the Holy Prophet. *[27]*



Dr. Resis Haylamaz:

*THE FATE OF THOSE PARDONED AND THE CAPTIVES*:
“The judgement passed by Sa’d ibn Muadh did not include all of the Banu Qurayza; among the Banu Qurayza that day there were youths such as atiyyatu-l-Qurazi and Rifa’a ibn Shamwal Amr ibn Su’da, ibn Sa’ya’s sons Salaba and Usayd and their cousin Asad ibn Ubayd. *THESE MEN OF CONSCIENCE WERE FORGIVEN*. Zabir ibn Bata had cone a great favour for Thabot ibn Qays ibn Shammas during the times of Buath wars. …” *[28]*



*10. How Many Men of the Quraiza were Killed?*

Ibn Ishaq:

“Then they surrendered, and the Apostle confined them in Medina, in the house of d. al-Harith, a women of banu al-Najjar. Then the Apostle of God went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads…” *[29]*



Number of those executed is uncertain: According to few sources, the number given for the men killed, for the treachery they committed are, 400, 500, and Ibn Ishaq puts it as high 600 – 900 men were executed. These numbers are not given in the Quran, and Hadith which are the most authoritative in Islam. The numbers are only reported in some sources which some scholars have doubt on.

This doubt itself is well evidenced. When we read Ibn Ishaq he tells that after the banu Quraiza surrendered to be judged, they were sent to the house (dar) of Bint al-harith, a women belonging to the Banu al-Najjar tribe.

If the number of 600 – 900 is true, then each of the warrior men would on average, have two kids plus wife, times the 900 by 3, we would have over 2000 people confined in one house. This is impossible given the fact that no such prison existed in Madinah, to house that many people. In fact it was not even a prison, it was just a house.

Furthermore, if we were to go with this, Madinah must have had one of the most advanced, well-organized prison’s ever. Given that over 2000 people had to be tied up, how big was Haritha’s house? Were the prisoners routinely fed, taken to toilet whenever needed? Given that none of the fully grown warriors (900) didn’t run away I doubt (as other scholars have) that such was the number of soldiers killed.

Thus the most appropriate thing regarding the number of the treacherous Banu Quraiza men executed is to ignore the contradictory and doubtful sources that mention the numbers. If these sources can’t agree with one another besides being doubtful to begin with, how can we be confident that such were the actual number of the men executed? Given the fact that Quran and Hadith are silent on the number and most importantly tell us that only some were killed and some were spared, we can confidently say that the varying numbers from 400 to 900 is nothing but conjecture.

Islamic scholar Barakat Ahmad lists a number of great examples where the Quraysh made major issues regarding smaller matters and if such a “massacre” ever occurred why isn’t it mentioned in any historical record from Jews, Christians or any reliable Muslim record?

The incident of the B. Qurayzah occurred before the armistice of Hudaybiyah and the peace with Khaybar were achieved. It is impossible that the pagans and the Munafiqun (hypocrites) would have remained muted. When Jahsh violated the sacred month and shed blood therein, when the palms of the B. al-Nadir were burnt, when the Apostle married the divorced wife of his adopted son, the people criticised and the Qur’an defended the Apostle. It is improbable that the Apostle’s critics would have paid less attention to the lives of the Banu Qurayzah than to the palms of the B. al-Nadir. That the news of this ‘massacre’ did not reach Syria, which included Jerusalem and Adhra’at, with which the Medina Jews had contacts, and the Exilarchate in Iraq, which exercised religious authority over them is highly unlikely. *[30]*



*11.* *Anti-Semitism claim*

Another widely false idea held by critics, believed and circulated by bigots, is that the Banu Qurayza were killed because of the inherent hatred Muslims and the religion Islam have towards Jews as a race.

However, as we have already read the sources in history, these are baseless lies. The historical reports tell us that some of the Banu Quraiza men were killed because they actively committed the crime of treason, waged war and supplied the enemies of the Muslims with weapons and supplies, while they had a pact with the Muslims that they would not do any of this. And, the Banu Qurayza were Arab Jews. So it is inconceivable for Arabs to hate other Jews just for their race.

Muslims and the Arab Jews have been living in peace and harmony for centuries, from the time of the Prophet Muhammed to this. In fact we have authentic historical reports where the Prophet (p) even after the Banu Quraiza incident showed love, mercy, and kindness to Jews.

If the Prophet (p) really hated Jews as some critics claim, then why did he free those who didn’t partake in the treachery? The evidences shown in this article quite clearly show us that the Prophet (p) only killed some Banu Qurayza warrior-men because they broke the pact, waged war, and supplied enemies with weapons against the Muslims.

We have a number of incidents after the Banu Qurayza episode in which the Prophet (p) and his companions showed utmost respect to Jews.

*11.1* – Islamic faith has never taught its followers to be anti-semitic. The Arab-Israeli conflict is a political conflict which started in the 1948, Muslims, Christians and Jews have lived in that area for centuries.

*11.2* – The Quran tells us that Kosher food prepared by Jews is allowed for Muslims (Qur’an 5:5).

*11.3* – Islam accepts and respects all Jewish Prophets: Moses, Solomon, David, Abraham etc.

*11.4* – When the Prophet was asked by one his Companions why he stood up for Jewish funeral procession, he remarked that we are all equal in death. Respect was given to a funeral of a Jew at time of Mohammed (p):

Sahih Muslim:

…while Qais b. Sa’d and Sahl b. Hunaif were both in Qadislyya a bier passed by them and they both stood up. They were told that it was the bier of one of the people of the land (non-Muslim). They said that a bier passed before the Prophet and he stood up. He was told that he (the dead man) was a Jew. Upon this he remarked: Was he not a human being or did he not have a soul?  (_Sahih Muslim  Book 4, Hadith 2098_)



Sunan Abi Dawud:

Narrated Jabir: We were with the Prophet when a funeral passed hi and he stood up for it. When we went to carry it, we found that it was a funeral of a Jew. We, therefore said: Messenger of Allah, this is the funeral of a Jew. He said: Death is fearful event, so when you see a funeral, stand up. (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 20, Hadith 3168_)



Sunan an-Nasai:

Jabir said: “The Prophet and his Companions stood up for the funeral of a Jew until it disappeared.” (_Sunan an-Nasa’i Vol. 3, Book 21, Hadith 1930_)



Sahih al-Bukhari:

A funeral procession passed in front of us and the Prophet stood up and we too stood up. We said, ‘O Allah’s Messenger! This is the funeral procession of a Jew.” He said, “Whenever you see a funeral procession, you should stand up.” (_Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 2, Book 23, Hadith 398_)



Sahih al-Bukhari:

Sahl bin Hunaif and Qais bin Sa`d were sitting in the city of Al-Qadisiya. A funeral procession passed in front of them and they stood up. They were told that funeral procession was of one of the inhabitants of the land i.e. of a non-believer, under the protection of Muslims. They said, “A funeral procession passed in front of the Prophet and he stood up. When he was told that it was the coffin of a Jew, he said, “Is it not a living being (soul)?” (_Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 2, Book 23, Hadith 399_)



*11.5* – The Prophet had a Jewish wife called Saffiya. Once, one the Prophet’s wives, Hafsah, called her, ‘daughter of a Jew”. Upon this, the Prophet (p) cautioned her to “Fear God”. He was not happy with her to call her such, and reprimanded her to think about what she says because she would be held liable for hurting her.

Jami at-Tirmidhi:

Narrated Anas: said: “It reached Safiyyah that Hafsah said: ‘The daughter of a Jew’ so she wept. Then the Prophet entered upon her while she was crying, so he said: ‘What makes you cry?’ She said: ‘Hafsah said to me that I am the daughter of a Jew.’ So the Prophet said: ‘And you are the daughter of a Prophet, and your uncle is a Prophet, and you are married to a Prophet, so what is she boasting to you about?’ Then he said: ‘Fear Allah, O Hafsah.'” (_Jami at-Tirmidhi Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3894_)



*11.6* – The Qur’an tells us that Muslim men are allowed to marry Jewish women (Qur’an 5:5). Thus if the religion and its founder were as the misguided critics claim then this would never have been allowed. But on the contrary, we see this endorsed by God and His Messenger in order to bring love and mercy and blood ties among Muslims and Jews.

*11.7* – Once the Prophet (p) didn’t have enough food in his house, so he went to a Jew who had food and mortgaged his armour for the food.

Narrated `Aisha: The Prophet purchased food grains from a Jew on credit and mortgaged his iron armor to him. (_Sahih al-Bukhari volume 3, Book 34, Hadith 282_)



*11.8* – The Prophet greeted Jews and Muslims together and insisted that Muslim should greet everyone:

Narrated Usamah bin Zaid: that the Prophet passed by a gathering in which the Muslims and the Jews were mixed, so he gave the Salam to them. (_Jami at-Tirmidhi  volume 5, Book 40, Hadith 2702_)



Adab Al-Mufrad:

Ibn ‘Abbas said, “*Return the greeting to whomever it is, Jew, Christian, or Magian*. That is because Allah says, ‘When you are greeted with a greeting, greet with one better than it or return it.’ (4: 86)” (_Al-Adab Al-Mufrad Book 44, Hadith 1107_)



Riyad as-Salihin:

The Prophet passed by a mixed company of people which included Muslims, polytheists and Jews, and he gave them the greeting (i.e., saying As- Salamu ‘Alaikum). (_Riyad as-Salihin Book 6, Hadith 868_)



*11.9* – A companion of the Prophet (p), Jabir owned some money to a Jew. When he couldn’t pay back, he asked the Jew if he could pay the amount he owned the following year, the Jew refused and wanted his money straight away. The Prophet hearing this went over to the Jew and asked him to wait patiently till next year when he could pay. But the he refused even when the Prophet (p) insisted. Thus there seemed to be compromise, so the Prophet (p) told Jabir to start working for the Jew by plucking dates so that he could pay back his money in time. Jabir agreed and started working hard until he paid back the Jewish man in full.

Sahih Bukhari:

“Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah: There was a Jew in Medina who used to lend me money up to the season of plucking dates. (Jabir had a piece of land which was on the way to Ruma). That year the land was not promising, so the payment of the debt was delayed one year. The Jew came to me at the time of plucking, but gathered nothing from my land. I asked him to give me one year respite, but he refused. This news reached the Prophet whereupon he said to his companions, “Let us go and ask the Jew for respite for Jabir.” All of them came to me in my garden, and the Prophet started speaking to the Jew, but he Jew said, “O Abu Qasim! I will not grant him respite.” When the Prophet saw the Jew’s attitude, he stood up and walked all around the garden and came again and talked to the Jew, but the Jew refused his request. I got up and brought some ripe fresh dates and put it in front of the Prophet. He ate and then said to me, “Where is your hut, O Jabir?” I informed him, and he said, “Spread out a bed for me in it.” I spread out a bed, and he entered and slept. When he woke up, I brought some dates to him again and he ate of it and then got up and talked to the Jew again, but the Jew again refused his request. Then the Prophet got up for the second time amidst the palm trees loaded with fresh dates, and said, “O Jabir! Pluck dates to repay your debt.” The Jew remained with me while I was plucking the dates, till I paid him all his right, yet there remained extra quantity of dates. So I went out and proceeded till I reached the Prophet and informed him of the good news, whereupon he said, “I testify that I am Allah’s Messenger.”
(_Sahih al-Bukhari volume 7, Book 65, Hadith 354_)



Sunan an-Nasa’i:

“My father owed some dates to a Jew. He was killed on the Day of Uhud and he left behind two gardens. The dates owed to the Jew would take up everything in the two gardens. The Prophet said: ‘Can you take half this year and half next year?’ But the Jew refused. The Prophet said: ‘When the time to pick the dates comes, call me.’ So I called him and he came, accompanied by Abu Bakr. The dates were picked and weighed from the lowest part of the palm trees, and the Messenger of Allah was praying for blessing, until we paid off everything that we owed him from the smaller of the two gardens, as calculated by ‘Ammar. Then I brought them some fresh dates and water and they ate and drank, then he said: ‘This is part of the blessing concerning which you will be questioned.'” (_Sunan an-Nasa’i, volume 4, Book 30, Hadith 3669_)



Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah: When my father died he owed a Jew thirty Awsuq (of dates). I requested him to give me respite for repaying but he refused. I requested Allah’s Messenger to intercede with the Jew. Allah’s Messenger went to the Jew and asked him to accept the fruits of my trees in place of the debt but the Jew refused. Allah’s Apostle entered the garden of the date-palms, wandering among the trees and ordered me (saying), “Pluck (the fruits) and give him his due.” So, I plucked the fruits for him after the departure of Allah’s Apostle and gave his thirty Awsuq, and still had seventeen Awsuq extra for myself. Jabir said: I went to Allah’s Messenger to inform of what had happened, but found him praying the `Asr prayer. After the prayer I told him about the extra fruits which remained. Allah’s Messenger told me to inform (`Umar) Ibn Al-Khattab about it. When I went to `Umar and told him about it, `Umar said, “When Allah’s Messenger walked in your garden, I was sure that Allah would definitely bless it.” (_Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 3, Book 41, Hadith 581_)



What is remarkable about this story is that the Prophet (p) then in Medina had the power and the authority force the Jew to be paid back in any time he wished. But that was not his character, never was. He respected the Jewish man and recognized his due right and thus told his companion to work for him to pay back his debt in the shortest time possible. This also shows that Muslims at the time freely interacted with the Jews and conferred them their due rights. They never treated others (non-Muslims) unjustly. This is the noble character of our beloved Prophet Muhammed (p) and those with him.

*11.10* – Some Jews at the time of the Prophet (p) used to be very disrespectful in Madinah, so whenever they used to see the Muhammed (p) they used to greet him with, “As-Samu-Alaikum.” (i.e. death be upon you). Aisha the wife of the Prophet (p), hearing this, got angry and responded by saying to them: Death and the curse of God be upon you! The Prophet (p) demanded her to be calm and then told her that God loves the one who is kind and lenient in all matters:

Sahih Bukhari:

“Narrated `Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) A group of Jews entered upon the Prophet and said, “As-Samu-Alaikum.” (i.e. death be upon you). I understood it and said, “Wa-Alaikum As-Samu wal-la’n. (death and the curse of Allah be Upon you).” Allah’s Messenger said “Be calm, O `Aisha! *Allah loves that one should be kind and lenient in all matters*.” I said, “O Allah’s Messenger! Haven’t you heard what they (the Jews) have said?” Allah’s Messenger said “I have already told them: Upon you”(_Sahih Bukhari, volume 8, book 53, Hadith 83_).

*11.11* – Another remarkable example is of Abdullah bin Amr who had slaughtered a sheep for his family and he asked whether he would give some of that meat to their neighbour who was a Jew. The Companion, Abdullah bn Amr, was thus following the Prophet Muhammed (p) in treating their neighbours kindly and politely and to share with them when there was enough food in their houses.

Jami at-Tirmidhi:

“Abdullah bin Amr had a sheep slaughtered for his family, so when he came he said: ‘*Have you given some to our neighbour, the Jew?* Have you given some to our neighbor, the Jew? I heard the Messenger of Allah saying: ‘Jibril continued to advise me about (treating) the neighbors so (kindly and politely), that I thought he would order me (from Allah) to make them heirs.” (_Jami at-Tirmidhi, volume 4, Book 1, Hadith 1943_).



Sunan Abi Dawud:

Abdullah ibn Amr slaughtered a sheep and said: Have you presented a gift from it to my neighbour, the Jew, for I heard the Messenger of Allah say: Gabriel kept on commending the neighbour to me so that I thought he would make an heir? (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 42, Hadith 5133_)



Here again, we witnessed the noble character of our beloved Prophet Muhammed (p). He cared for everyone, be they those who have a religion or not – he treated all the same.

*11.12* – The Prophet visited a sick Jew in bed:

Chapter: Visiting A Sick Dhimmi
Narrated Anas: A young Jew became ill. The Prophet went to visit him. He sat down by his head and said to him: Accept Islam. He looked at his father who was beside him near his head, and he said: Obey Abu al-Qasim. So he accepted Islam, and the Prophet stood up saying: Praise be to Allah Who has saved him through me from Hell. (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 20, Hadith 3089_)



*11.13* – A Jew gave free food because he heard about the noble, merciful character of Prophet Muhammed (p). This shows had the Prophet (p) been hostile to Jews, this Jew wouldn’t have given him something for free.

Sunan Abi Dawud:

Sahl bin Sa’d said: `Ali bin Abi Talib entered upon Fatimah while Hasan and Husain were crying. He asked: Why are they crying? She replied: Due to hunger. ‘Ali went out and found a dinar in the market. He then came to Fatima and told her about it. She said: Go to such and such a Jew and get some flour for us. He came to the Jew and purchased flour with it. He said : Are you the son-in-law of him who believes that he is the Messenger of Allah. He said : Yes. The Jew said : Have your dinar with you and you will get the flour. Ali then went out and came to Fatima. He told her about the matter. She then said: Go to such and such a butcher and get some meat for us for a dirham. Ali went out and pawned the dinar for a dirham with him and got the meat, and brought it (to her). She then kneaded the flour, put the utensil on fire and baked the bread. She sent for her father : (i.e. the Prophet (SWAS). He came to them. She said to him : Messenger of Allah, I tell you all the matter. If you think it is lawful for us, we shall eat it and you will eat with us. She said: The matter is such and such. He said: eat in the name of Allah. So they ate it. While they were (eating) at their place, a boy cried adguring in the name of Allah and Islam: He was searching the dinar. The Messenger of Allah (SWAS) commanded and he was called in. He asked him. The boy replied, I lost it somewhere in the market. The Prophet (SWAS) said : `Ali, go to the butcher and tell him that the Messenger of Allah (SWAS) has asked you : send the dinar to me and one dirham of yours will be due on me. The butcher returned it and the Messenger of Allah (SWAS) handed it to him (the boy). (_Sunan Abi Dawud Book 9, Hadith 1712_)



From the above we may judge that the Prophet (p) always had kind feelings towards every human being. He loved and respected everyone. Hatred is something he never had, it was against his nature. And those who accuse him of anti-Semitism are nothing but bigots propelled by their inherent hatred towards Muhammad (p) to say anything bad against him with a view to tarnishing his noble character.

*12. Conclusion*:

The evidences presented on Banu Qurayza’s treacherous warrior-men’s fate shows that we can get the clear picture that they were not innocent as some would like us to believe. Only the warrior-men who committed treachery and participated in combat against the Muslims were executed. Hadn’t Sa’d ibn Mu’adh dealt with the treacherous among them, they would have gone and come back with other enemies to kill the Muslims once again. Just as Banu Nadir did when the Prophet (p) let them go – they came back and plotted to kill the Muslims in Madinah. We have to look at the fact, hadn’t the Prophet (p) executed the traitors’, punished the treacherous warrior-men of Qurayza, they would have come back and slaughtered Muslim men, women and children. We have to remember, the Banu Qurayza already were forgiven once before for siding with enemies and when the Prophet forgave them, they hatched up further plots to kill Muslims.

The evidences shown proves that the Banu Qurayza broke the pact they had, they sided with enemy against the Muslims. They attacked Muslims, waged war against the Muslims. They armed Quraysh (and other enemies) with weapons and provisions against the Muslims. The Banu Qurayza waging-war against Muslims part is mentioned in many authentic Hadiths, sadly the sources do not give us any more details where this battle took place. However, given these facts, we can safely state that, what those treacherous Banu Qurayza warrior-men got was justice of the highest order demanded for them to be their fate.


*(Sure 9, 111).
Analysing Verse

9:111 “Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur’an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.” – Quran 9:111

9:111 – God has indeed promised those believers who strive in his cause and do good in this life that they will be rewarded with Paradise. The part of the verse where it states, “so they kill and are killed”, should be understood in the historically as of those martyrs who actively defended innocent lives from being killed, by fighting tyranny and oppression. The verse should not be understood to mean that it gives open permission killing innocents. This is prohibited (haram) in Islam. The Prophet (p) never in his life fought against anyone who never waged war against him or his people. For anyone to take this verse to mean otherwise, is going against God and the Prophet’s teachings.

Prophet Muhammed said:

“O God! Let us enjoy our hearing, our sight and our power as long as you keep us alive and make our heirs from our own offspring, and make our revenge RESTRICTED TO THOSE WHO OPPRESS US, and support us AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE HOSTILE TO US let no misfortune afflict our Deen: let not worldly affairs be our principal concern, or the ultimate limit of our knowledge, and let not those rule over us who do not show mercy to us.” – (Riyad as-Salihin Book 5. Hadith 834)

Commentaries

Maulana Muhammad Ali:

“111a. The promise which is said to be binding on Allah, as laid down in the Qur’an, as well as in the previous books, is this, that Allah will grant the believers His blessings, if they exert themselves with their persons and their property in His way: “Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property — theirs (in return) is the Garden”. The Gospels give the same promise: “If thou wilt be perfect,” said Jesus to a wealthy man, “go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me” (Matt. 19:21). “Behold, we have forsaken all and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?” said Peter. Jesus’ reply was: “Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life” (Matt. 19:27–29). Moses’ teaching contains similar promises. For instance, the promise of God, “that ye may increase mightily … in the land that floweth with milk and honey,” is made conditional on “thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might” (Deut. 6:3–5), which is the same as exerting oneself to one’s utmost in the way of God with one’s person and property. It should be borne in mind that the words they fight in Allah’s way, so they slay and are slain, are not a part of the promise, but are expressive of the condition of the Companions, and show that they were true to their promise. The promise to spend one’s person and property may be carried out in various ways under different circumstances, and the Companions of the Holy Prophet were as true to this promise during the thirteen years at Makkah as during the ten years at Madinah.” [1]

Scholar Abdullah Yusuf Ali:

“1361 In a human bargain both sides give something and receive some advantage. In the divine bargain of Allah with man, Allah takes man’s will and soul and his wealth and goods, and gives him in return everlasting Felicity. Man fights in Allah’s Cause and carries out His will. All that he has to give up is the ephemeral things of this world, while he gains eternal salvation, the fulfilment of his highest spiritual hopes-a supreme achievement indeed (C/. 61:10-12).
1362 We offer our whole selves and our possessions to Allah, and Allah gives us Salvation. This is the true doctrine of redemption; and we are taught that this is the doctrine not only of the Qur’an but of the earlier Revelations-the original Law of Moses and the original Gospel of Jesus. Any other view of redemption is rejected by Islam, especially that of corrupted Christianity, which thinks that some other person suffered for our sins and we are redeemed by his blood. It is our self-surrender that counts, not other people’s merits. Our complete self-surrender may include fighting for the cause, both spiritually and physically. As regards actual fighting with the sword there has been some difference in theological theories at different times, but very little in the practice of those who framed those theories. The Jewish wars were ruthless wars of extermination. The Old Testament does not mince matters on the subject. In the New Testament St. Paul, in commending the worthy fruits of Faith, mentions Gideon, Barak, and other warriors of the Old Testament as his ideals, “Who through faith subdued kingdoms . . . waxed valiant in fight, turned to fight the armies of the aliens . . .” (Hebrews, 11:32-34). The monkish morality of the Gospels in their present form has never been followed by any self-respecting Christian or other nation in history. Nor is it common sense to ignore lust of blood in unregenerate man as a form of evil which has to be combatted “within the limits set by Allah” (9:112). (R).” [2]
*


----------



## Aurora Wright (Apr 22, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Atheists believe there is no God.


We believe there is no God because we don't see proof to rationally get to that conclusion. God is superfluous to understanding reality/the universe, and thus most likely doesn't exist until it gives us proof of it.


Haider Raza said:


> While they can't prove how they came to existence from nothing & how this complex world & this complex design of us made from nothing.


Actually our "complex design" has been proven by science and there is sound proof to explain it. tl;dr we are this way because our genes were the fittest to survival and they were selected among random mutations in millions of years.
The universe has been explained up to the point of its inception, we can't go "back" because time itself started at that point and there is no "back". Finding a reason for the universe existing is a human concept, there might very well NOT be a reason at all.


Haider Raza said:


> They have no evidence to prove there is no God.


That's not how it works. I don't have to prove invisible pink unicorns don't exist, it's the one claiming they exist who needs to. That's how science works as well.


Haider Raza said:


> While we Muslims say if there is a God after we die. We have prepared for it. What have you prepared? While we follow the guidance of God which is not to drink alcohol not to eat pork not do or use anything that is bad for you & be good to parents, Praise God etc. Even if die & there is nothing afterlife we win & if there is a God we have prepared for it. So we win again. While the person who doesn't believe in God. Who doesn't have good guidance like not to drink alcohol not to anything bad etc. He is a loser to this life & if afterlife exist then he is a loser to afterlife aswell.


That doesn't fly. There are countless religions in the world, and you need to strictly conform to rules in *all of your life* in the hope that your own religion is the correct one. If you are wrong (which is statistically very likely) then you didn't follow the correct rules and you will be punished anyway. If there is no God (which, disregarding faith and only using reason is the most likely outcome) you had a worse/more limited life for no reason.
About "not do or use anything that is bad for you & be good to parents": you don't need a religion to tell you this. If you feel affection towards your parents (as they're good people) you won't feel a need to be bad towards them. If they are bad people, then you have no obligation to respect them. You didn't choose to be born.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 22, 2017)

I will avoid pasta for the rest of the year.

After eating all this shameless copy pasta I don't want to know anything more about it.


----------



## Aurora Wright (Apr 22, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> I will avoid pasta for the rest of the year.
> 
> After eating all this shameless copy pasta I don't want to know anything more about it.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 22, 2017)

I'm curious as to if there's any REAL evidence of Muslim SS officers, aside from blatant anti-Islamic propaganda. (A book called Hitler's Jihadists? Come on dude, you can do better than that)


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

I didn't want to stress this point, but since you're asking for it:
_The romantic notions that Himmler had about the Bosnian Muslims were probably significant in the division's genesis.[11] He was personally fascinated by the Islamic faith and believed that Islam created fearless soldiers.[9] He found their ferocity preferable to the gentility of Christians and believed their martial qualities should be further developed and put to use.[11] He thought that Muslim men would make perfect SS soldiers as Islam "promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action."_
_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)_


----------



## Aurora Wright (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I didn't want to stress this point, but since you're asking for it:
> _The romantic notions that Himmler had about the Bosnian Muslims were probably significant in the division's genesis.[11] He was personally fascinated by the Islamic faith and believed that Islam created fearless soldiers.[9] He found their ferocity preferable to the gentility of Christians and believed their martial qualities should be further developed and put to use.[11] He thought that Muslim men would make perfect SS soldiers as Islam "promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)_


Him being fascinated and believing muslims would make perfect SS soldiers doesn't mean there were muslims officers in the SS, though.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I didn't want to stress this point, but since you're asking for it:
> _The romantic notions that Himmler had about the Bosnian Muslims were probably significant in the division's genesis.[11] He was personally fascinated by the Islamic faith and believed that Islam created fearless soldiers.[9] He found their ferocity preferable to the gentility of Christians and believed their martial qualities should be further developed and put to use.[11] He thought that Muslim men would make perfect SS soldiers as Islam "promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)_


Funny how you just kind of leave out the part about the Bosnians being dissatisfied with Croatian rule and wanting better protection, and the Reich winning their favor by building mosques and offering said protection...

Look, I get that both you and @Haider Raza have been brought up to believe to different things. Both of you have very distinct tells of community brainwashing going on. _That doesn't make one or the other of you _right. The truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle of this shit-throwing contest you've got going


----------



## barronwaffles (Apr 22, 2017)

Wait, you don't think the foreign SS units existed?


----------



## Viri (Apr 22, 2017)

Oh boy, the "Hitler card" was played!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodwinsLaw

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/xrdaz...t-a-relatively-closer-look---hitler-reference


----------



## Aurora Wright (Apr 22, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Wait, you don't think the foreign SS units existed?


He's saying that the reason wasn't hatred towards the jews, but rather their dissatisfaction with croatian rule.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

Aurora Wright said:


> Him being fascinated and believing muslims would make perfect SS soldiers doesn't mean there were muslims officers in the SS, though.


Well the division did exist and consisted of Muslims, they even had Imams. Keep reading the article. As if this is some kind of secret info.


--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Look, I get that both you and @Haider Raza have been brought up to believe to different things. Both of you have very distinct tells of community brainwashing going on. _That doesn't make one or the other of you _right. The truth most likely lies somewhere in the middle of this shit-throwing contest you've got going


I tried to have a factual conversation, he kept calling me names (he did bring up Hitler, not I, apparently I'm just as Hitler).
You don't know about my upbringing nor my beliefs or lack thereof.

What do you mean with the truth lies in the middle. I'm asking you: Does Islam has sth to do with the terror attacks we see all around the world or not? There is no middle to this question. He says no, I say yes. And I gave two arguments (the belief in the afterlife-reward and the fact that poor Non-Muslims don't blow themselves up on a weekly basis).


----------



## barronwaffles (Apr 22, 2017)

Aurora Wright said:


> He's saying that the reason wasn't hatred towards the jews, but rather their dissatisfaction with croatian rule.



Why does each reason need to exist in a vacuum? The sentiments expressed by Amin al-Husseini during his meeting with Hitler - while nothing like what Netanyahu tried to convey - were not unique in the Islamic world at the time. Hell, they weren't even unique outside of the Islamic world.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

Aurora Wright said:


> He's saying that the reason wasn't hatred towards the jews, but rather their dissatisfaction with croatian rule.


_"While it achieved successes and proved itself competent in counter-insurgency operations against the Partisans in eastern Bosnia,[123]the division earned a reputation for brutality and savagery, not only during combat operations,[31] but also through atrocities committed against Serb[124][125] and Jewish civilians"_
source: same as above


----------



## Viri (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I tried to have a factual conversation, he kept calling me names (he did bring up Hitler, not I, apparently I'm just as Hitler).
> You don't know about my upbringing nor my beliefs or lack thereof.


That sounds like something Hitler would say!


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 22, 2017)

Viri said:


> That sounds like something Hitler would say!


You're literally Hitler!


----------



## Viri (Apr 22, 2017)

Memoir said:


> You're literally Hitler!


It's too late for compliments!


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 22, 2017)

Viri said:


> It's too late for compliments!


Its never too late for war!


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 22, 2017)

Aurora Wright said:


> *We believe there is no God because we don't see proof to rationally get to that conclusion. God is superfluous to understanding reality/the universe, and thus most likely doesn't exist until it gives us proof of it.*


This life is a test for the hereafter every thing depends on your actions. You can understand about the free will down below.

According to teachings of Islam, God (_Allah_ in Arabic) has given humans free will to make choices in their lives but only God has foreknowledge of our destiny, and He has total control over it.


*Predestination: An Islamic Perspective*
To understand the Islamic perspective on destiny and free will, we first need to know a few basic facts which form the foundation of faith for Muslims:

1-      God is the Only Sustainer of the whole universe and He is the Most Merciful. The Quran begins with, _“Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy…” (1:1-2)_

2-      God has created humans in the finest state. God mentions in the Quran: _“We have certainly created man in the best of stature.” (95:4)_

3-      The primary objective of human life is to worship God. _“And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” (Quran, 51:56). _It must be noted that the Islamic concept of worship encompasses all human endeavors that are pursued for just ends, and in accordance with God’s commandments.

4-      Our life is a test and we’ll be judged for our actions in the hereafter.  God says in the Quran, _“Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power; He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.” (67:1-2)._

5-      He’s All Wise, and He tests us according to our strength.  The Quran cites: _“God does not burden any soul with more than it can bear: each gains whatever good it has done, and suffers its bad.” (2:286)_

6-      God is Omniscient and Omnipresent – i.e., he is fully aware of His creation and is always present.  He is also All Powerful, so whatever He decrees takes place, and whatever He does not will does not happen. _God – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. (2:255)_

In other words, humans are God’s best creation who have a special purpose in life, i.e., to worship Him. Islam teaches that in order for us to freely perform in the test of life, He has given us free will to lead our lives as we wish, but the outcome of each of our actions is governed by the will of God. If God does not will for something to take place, it will not happen no matter how hard we try. And if He wills for something to occur, it will transpire no matter what we do to stop it.

One may say then, “What’s the use of striving in this life if we will get what is already decreed by God?”  This seems logical, but it is, of course, a misconception. In fact, Islam places great emphasis on making efforts towards a desired end. In the Quran, God says, _“And that there is not for man except that [good] for which he strives And that his effort is going to be seen – Then he will be recompensed for it with the fullest recompense And that to your Lord is the finality”(53:39-42).

*Again, making an effort is part of the power we have in the form of free will – if we waste it away with a complacent attitude, then we’re being ungrateful for the blessing we have. We must do everything within our power to optimize our lives – at the same time, we must recognize that God’s power and domain are far greater. He is not thinking only about us, but for the entire humanity, the whole world, nay, the universe itself! He is the One who, through destiny, balances the lives of humans, animals, plants, while at the same time harmonizing planets and other celestial bodies.*

Many people protest that if God controls everything, why does He allow massacres of innocent people, torture, disease and the worst forms of evil to exist? Indeed, Islam does not ascribe evil to God. God allows tragedy and misery to take place in this world for reasons which often escape humans; it could be a test for those people, a form of purification, or warning for the rest of us to rehabilitate our lives. The Ultimate Truth is known only to God and our conviction is that God is Just and Good, even in those matters where we do not understand His Will. The Quran gives us a glimpse of this in the interaction between Moses and a learned man in Chapter 18, verses 60 through 82. (See it here.)

In addition, God has ordained accountability for humans on the Day of Judgment, when He will reward us for obeying Him and acting righteously in this world or punish us for transgressing His limits and living a whimsical existence. This further proves the importance of free will in our lives. God will judge us according to the choices we make in this life, not based on the destiny He has decreed for us. The Quran confirms this as: “Whoever does righteousness – it is for his [own] soul; and whoever does evil [does so] against it. And your Lord is not ever unjust to [His] servants.” (41:46).  

*The Impact of Belief in Divine Destiny*
Truly, when we accept the Divine Destiny we lead a more satisfying and productive life.  When we don’t get what we wish or strive for, our belief in divine destiny prevents us from becoming despondent or frustrated.  We accept the tragedy as a test from God and submit to His will with patience and dignity.

And if our plans work successfully or something good happens to us, belief in divine destiny will prevent us from becoming too boastful or arrogant.  Many successful people feel that their wealth and status are because they are smarter, wiser, stronger, or just more deserving of success than others.  But the truth is, they may have made certain choices, it is God who made those choices work out well for them.

*God says in the Quran, “No misfortune can happen, either in the earth or in yourselves, that was not set down in writing before We brought it into being––that is easy for God–– so you need not grieve for what you miss or gloat over what you gain. God does not love the conceited, the boastful” (57:22-24). This mindset helps us live a fulfilling and happy life.  We become more thankful and learn to give empowering meanings to our experiences, whether good or bad.*
_

The belief in divine destiny is also a great source of courage.  When we know that no calamity or harm can touch us without the will of God and the time of our death is prefixed, we lead a righteous and valiant life.  Quran mentions:

_“Say, ‘Only what God has decreed will happen to us. He is our Master: let the believers put their trust in God.’” (9:51)_

_“Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction…” (4:78)_

In conclusion, Destiny is one of the articles of faith in Islam. It teaches Muslims to make the most out of their resources and leave the results to God.







Aurora Wright said:


> *Actually our "complex design" has been proven by science and there is sound proof to explain it. tl;dr we are this way because our genes were the fittest to survival and they were selected among random mutations in millions of years.
> The universe has been explained up to the point of its inception, we can't go "back" because time itself started at that point and there is no "back". Finding a reason for the universe existing is a human concept, there might very well NOT be a reason at all.*


I said how it came to existence from nothing. I didn't said explain our complex design. Science is based on theories not facts. Quran gives facts like how someone 1400years ago in a dessert came to know all that things which you came to know through technology. How did information about big bang n stuff written there. Is it not from the creator? Tell me if you get an instrument which no one in the world knows about. Tell me who is the first person to tell you the mechanism of that instrument? Isn't it the creator the maker the inventor the producer? Same way Quran is an instruction for our life. It has scientific proof. It has signs. It has every information like what is Good FOR US & what is Bad for us. You say we can't go back time to find out before time. If you don't know what is before time. Then how can you say there is no God? You have no evidence to proof God doesn't exist.




Aurora Wright said:


> *That doesn't fly. There are countless religions in the world, and you need to strictly conform to rules in *all of your life* in the hope that your own religion is the correct one. If you are wrong (which is statistically very likely) then you didn't follow the correct rules and you will be punished anyway. If there is no God (which, disregarding faith and only using reason is the most likely outcome) you had a worse/more limited life for no reason.
> About "not do or use anything that is bad for you & be good to parents": you don't need a religion to tell you this. If you feel affection towards your parents (as they're good people) you won't feel a need to be bad towards them. If they are bad people, then you have no obligation to respect them. You didn't choose to be born.*


I said every other religion they believe God as rocks, bones & humans. Only Jews & Muslims believe in one true Creator who made everything. We don't worship his creation.

Tell me this If there is God after you die. Who have more risks, You or Me? I lived my life peaceful here by following the rules & believed in God. There is nothing bad by believing in God. Even if there is no God I win both sides. If you who don't follow God's guidance you'll go drinking alcohol, eating pork n stuff which are poison for human body. You life kinda be bad in this life & if there is a God. Then I can say nothing it's upto God. This is kinda like I win, win & you lose & lose both sides.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 22, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> What do you mean with the truth lies in the middle. I'm asking you: Does Islam has sth to do with the terror attacks we see all around the world or not? There is no middle to this question. He says no, I say yes. And I gave two arguments (the belief in the afterlife-reward and the fact that poor Non-Muslims don't blow themselves up on a weekly basis).


"Islam is a factor in modern terrorism" _is _the middle ground, but that's not the argument you appear to be making. The case you seem to be attempting to make is that Islam is an inherently violent religion that fosters terrorism, which, from what I can see, it simply isn't. At the very least, it's no less violent than any other of the Abrahamic/Hindu based religions, which I also personally have nothing against until they are used to push a personal agenda or used by an individual to harm another


----------



## Aurora Wright (Apr 22, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> This life is a test for the hereafter every thing depends on your actions. You can understand about the free will down below.
> 
> According to teachings of Islam, God (_Allah_ in Arabic) has given humans free will to make choices in their lives but only God has foreknowledge of our destiny, and He has total control over it.
> 
> ...


So God is like a The Sims player who makes people with certain predispostitions (both genetical and environmental) not to follow his own rules (take a psychopath: they are way more likely of committing "evil" than anyone else. Alcoholism also has genetic factors; atheism probably depends strongly on the environment at least) just to "test them" and then punish them. Doesn't seem like someone I'd be glad to worship, to be honest.


Haider Raza said:


> I said how it came to existence from nothing. I didn't said explain our complex design. Science is based on theories not facts. Quran gives facts like how someone 1400years ago in a dessert came to know all that things which you came to know through technology. How did information about big bang n stuff written there. Is it not from the creator? Tell me if you get an instrument which no one in the world knows about. Tell me who is the first person to tell you the mechanism of that instrument? Isn't it the creator the maker the inventor the producer? Same way Quran is an instruction for our life. It has scientific proof. It has signs. It has every information like what is Good FOR US & what is Bad for us. You say we can't go back time to find out before time. If you don't know what is before time. Then how can you say there is no God? You have no evidence to proof God doesn't exist.


Any evidence the Quran talks about the Big Bang? And it'd need to be pretty specific, some vague and interpreted line doesn't cut it.
Again, you need to prove God exists scientifically, I'm not the one who needs to disprove it.


Haider Raza said:


> I said every other religion they believe God as rocks, bones & humans. Only Jews & Muslims believe in one true Creator who made everything. We don't worship his creation. Tell me this If there is God after you die. Who have more risks, You or Me? I lived my life peaceful here by following the rules & believed in God. There is nothing bad by believing in God. Even if there is no God I win both sides. If you who don't follow God's guidance you'll go drinking alcohol, eating pork n stuff which are poison for human body. You life kinda be bad in this life & if there is a God. Then I can say nothing it's upto God. This is kinda like I win, win & you lose & lose both sides.


All religions have "rules" imposed from God. Christians as an example don't need to avoid eating pork. As a muslim, you're not following Jewish or Christian rules; so if Christians are right you will be punished. And as there are countless religions, assuming a god exists the chances of being wrong are very high.
Also, if a God like the one you describe exists, I'd rather go to hell with countless other people I enjoy, than worship him.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 22, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> "Islam is a factor in modern terrorism" _is _the middle ground, but that's not the argument you appear to be making.


That's exactly the argument I'm making. It's not the middle ground.
Razar, politicians, and Muslim apologists argue that Islam has no role in terrorism. That true Islam is so wonderful and those evil terrorists just use Islam as an excuse (to blow themselves up? uurrr okaay...).
I say (for the third time) that Islamic belief about paradise and how to get there + social problems are the cause for terrorism.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> The case you seem to be attempting to make is that Islam is an inherently violent religion that fosters terrorism, which, from what I can see, it simply isn't. At the very least, it's no less violent than any other of the Abrahamic/Hindu based religions, which I also personally have nothing against until they are used to push a personal agenda or used by an individual to harm another


All monotheistic religions are inherently violent as they exclude people from other religions.
Islam is special in a way though. It was born with political power (from the time of Medina: beginning of Islamic time reckoning) and therefore has a spiritual and political dimension. Christianity never had a political dimension until the 4th century, therefore reforms can always cleanse it from being political. Judaism once had a political dimension but lost it since the loss of the temple. You could argue though that Zionism is its replacement.

I don't mind the spiritual dimension of any religion but - as you say - if it is imposed on me, there is a problem (same for Christianity etc).


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 23, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That's exactly the argument I'm making. It's not the middle ground.
> Razar, politicians, and Muslim apologists argue that Islam has no role in terrorism. That true Islam is so wonderful and those evil terrorists just use Islam as an excuse (to blow themselves up? uurrr okaay...).
> I say (for the third time) that Islamic belief about paradise and how to get there + social problems are the cause for terrorism.
> 
> ...


You say Christianity had no political impact and yet Jesus was executed because the Jewish leaders (remember that religion == government to them) feared he would overthrow their rule


----------



## jimbo13 (Apr 23, 2017)

The people who want to pretend there isn't a clear and present danger from Islam are liberal platitude seeking children who believe in things like hate facts, statistics don't count if they demonstate any kind of cultural skew.  They believe "equality" means everyone gets a participation trophy and no group can be more violent, successful, or better at something than another group.

The fact is Muslims are far more violent than Buddhists and some cultures are better than others.  People are capable of belonging to a shitty ideology and promoting shitty values and those who don't are better than they are.  Deal with it, and no participation Trophys for groups routinely photographed holding human heads or throwing gays off roof tops as a daily occurrence.

Totalinsanity for example believes men and women should have to comepete against each other in sports and Muslims are as peaceful as everyone else, this is a simple basic rejection of reality and science for the sake of forced imaginary equality.


----------



## barronwaffles (Apr 23, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You say Christianity had no political impact and yet Jesus was executed because the Jewish leaders (remember that religion == government to them) feared he would overthrow their rule



That essentially reads as a group with zero political agency being suppressed by those with almost exclusive access to the political class.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 23, 2017)

And then there's Jimbo


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 23, 2017)

Aurora Wright said:


> *So God is like a The Sims player who makes people with certain predispostitions (both genetical and environmental) not to follow his own rules (take a psychopath: they are way more likely of committing "evil" than anyone else. Alcoholism also has genetic factors; atheism probably depends strongly on the environment at least) just to "test them" and then punish them. Doesn't seem like someone I'd be glad to worship, to be honest.*


It depends on you whether you chose God or not. It depends on you whether you chose eternal happiness or eternal misery. There is reward also not just Hell. People who did wrong (ISIS, Hitler, Bush etc) will be punished. They had will they chose to do bad & they ignored the guidance of God.




Aurora Wright said:


> *Any evidence the Quran talks about the Big Bang? And it'd need to be pretty specific, some vague and interpreted line doesn't cut it.*



Quran Chapter 21 Verse 30 (Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?)

Quran Chapter 51 Verse 47 ("And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.")



Aurora Wright said:


> *All religions have "rules" imposed from God. Christians as an example don't need to avoid eating pork. As a muslim, you're not following Jewish or Christian rules; so if Christians are right you will be punished. And as there are countless religions, assuming a god exists the chances of being wrong are very high.
> Also, if a God like the one you describe exists, I'd rather go to hell with countless other people I enjoy, than worship him.*


Even in Bible & Torah it is said don't eat pork, Don't drink alcohol. As I mentioned before Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) was the last & final messenger & Quran is final revelation.

These are some of the Prophets (Peace Be Upon Them All) which are mentioned by name in Quran.
Harun (Aaron)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Aadam (Adam)
Da'ud (David)
Ilias (Elijah)
Alyasa (Elisha)
Idris (Enoch)
Dhul-kifi (Ezekiel)
Hud (Eber)
Is'haq (Isaac)
Isma'il (Ishmael)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Isa (Jesus)
Ayyub (Job)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Younis (Johah)
Lut (Lot)
Nuh (Noah)
Muhammad
Musa (Moses)
Saleh (Salah)
Sulaiman (Solomon)
Zakariyyah (Zechariah)

All of these came & gave one message. God is one & only & worship him alone. People now a day believe Jesus was God. While jesus never claimed to be God in Bible. Nor did he said worship me. He said our lord is one & worship him.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 23, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> That essentially reads as a group with zero political agency being suppressed by those with almost exclusive access to the political class.


I mean, yeah, it basically was. But the people wanted to crown him as King (palm Sunday) and he had gathered a huge cult following, all while cleverly non-answering politically charged questions by the Pharisees in a way that they could never quite pin him for blasphemy

It's kind of fascinating stuff if you ever read up on the legal opposition to Jesus


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 23, 2017)

jimbo13 said:


> The fact is Muslims are far more violent.


LOL! just look at your profile pic like how cute is that? The only person showing violence is you.


----------



## barronwaffles (Apr 23, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I mean, yeah, it basically was. But the people wanted to crown him as King (palm Sunday) and he had gathered a huge cult following, all while cleverly non-answering politically charged questions by the Pharisees in a way that they could never quite pin him for blasphemy
> 
> It's kind of fascinating stuff if you ever read up on the legal opposition to Jesus



It's incredibly interesting - but I'd need to agree with @UltraDolphinRevolution that there wasn't any *real* political agency/motivation inside the Christian sect largely until the Edict of Milan.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 23, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> It's incredibly interesting - but I'd need to agree with @UltraDolphinRevolution that there wasn't any *real* political agency/motivation inside the Christian sect largely until the Edict of Milan.


I will agree that there wasn't the same political element there is in Islam with Christianity, yes. Although it is there, and it was a factor


----------



## jimbo13 (Apr 23, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> LOL! just look at your profile pic like how cute is that? The only person showing violence is you.



There is nothing violent about my avatar and if you change my words again as a quotation I will make an exception for my rule of not reporting people.

Feel free to do it satirically in a manner that is obviously mockery, but don't quote my shit to make it look like I said something I didn't.

Haider there is practicing Taqiyya on the forums.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Apr 23, 2017)

I would just give up guys, he is blatently ignoring anything he doesn't have the answer to or doesn't want to answer and hides behind copy and pasting tons of pointless crap

*Random Bible Verse1*
*Psalm 50:14-15 *
14 “Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, [1]
and perform your vows to the Most High,
15 and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”

*Random Bible Verse1*
*Numbers 23:19 *
19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

*Random Bible Verse1*
*John 14:16-17 *
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, [1] to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

*Footnotes*
[1] 14:16 Or _Advocate_, or _Counselor_; also 14:26; 15:26; 16:7


I hope that answers all your questions , this thread is going nowhere at all, I'm sure the debate isn't going to convince anyone here of anything or get any new answers, its all just the same BS over and over


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 23, 2017)

gamesquest1 said:


> I would just give up guys, he is blatently ignoring anything he doesn't have the answer to or doesn't want to answer and hides behind copy and pasting tons of pointless crap
> 
> *Random Bible Verse1*
> *Psalm 50:14-15 *
> ...


LOL, you still have to go for twenty more pages of random copy pasta to get even near to his level of annoyance.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 23, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You say Christianity had no political impact and yet Jesus was executed because the Jewish leaders (remember that religion == government to them) feared he would overthrow their rule


I said Christianity didn't have political POWER. And if Jesus had political power, he wouldn't have been killed. Of course Christians say Jesus could have send armies Angels to protect him but let's stay historical. Now once Christians did have political power, they prosecuted people who had other beliefs - in an instant basically.

Here's a scary thought: In the Tora the Jews slaughter the Canaanites, take their land and are proud of it because God told them so. And they were bad people. History is written by the winner.
Imagine World War 3 -> any side "wins" (survives) a nuclear war and religiously justifies it over time (if civilization reemerges on the planet).
(I am aware that the stories in the Tora are not historically accurate)

Oh but it was self-defense. Whether it was or not doesn't matter, we just have to reassure ourselves that "we" are the good guys. The Hitler-cult in the 1940s almost had religious connotations. I'm sure if the Germans had won WW2, there would be a religion by now (Hitler as the new Moses/Muhammad). And the killing of the Jews would have been morally good. Only difference: We know for sure Hitler existed and was pretty much the way he is seen/heard in video, audio, text and pictures from that time.

Why didn't God wait till the emergence of video cameras when he decided to stop sending prophets? At least then we would not have to play guessing games. LOL


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 23, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I said Christianity didn't have political POWER.
> 
> The Hitler-cult in the 1940s almost had religious connotations. I'm sure if the Germans had won WW2, there would be a religion by now (Hitler as the new Me).
> 
> Why didn't God wait till the emergence of video cameras when he decided to stop sending prophets? At least then we would not have to play guessing games. LOL


So you are a uneducated Christian thats why you hate Muslims that much?

Quran Chapter 3 verse 64 (Say: "O People of the Book! (Christian, Jews etc.) come to common terms as between us and you)

Hitler had a Christian faith by the way. I have to say this because you are twisting things & making it sound like he was Muslim. Because he had idea of joining with Muslims doesn't prove you statement right. Please educate yourself & stop this foolishness of yours. The only Hitler here is you. You show the true form of hitler like he had hate for jews. The same hate you have for Muslims. You are twisting history to make Muslims look bad. No muslim troops joined Hitler. That video of 20 nazis praying doesn't prove anything.

Your answer is given already look at my comments. Don't be arrogant & ignorant. Look at my comments & you'll know why God stopped sending Prophets. I think I already told you about it. I don't know why you're repeating the same thing again.


----------



## akira123 (Apr 23, 2017)

(((GBAtemp))) instigated the 9/11 terrorist attacks.


----------



## barronwaffles (Apr 23, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> No muslim troops joined Hitler



So you're going to deny history and blanket it all with some type of 'no true Muslim' tripe?

Spewing shit like this @Haider Raza makes even an apatheist like me want to deus vult.


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 23, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> So you're going to deny history.


What history a youtube video of 20 nazi praying? WTF do you even have a brain?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

By 20 nazi praying makes Hitler a Muslim? What kind of dumb logic is this? Is this your scientific theory?


----------



## barronwaffles (Apr 23, 2017)

You're a 10/10 example of indoctrination.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 23, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> So you are a uneducated Christian thats why you hate Muslims that much?


I didn't say I'm a Christian. Unlike you my posts try to be objective. I talk about what Christians, Muslims etc believe and about history. Did I quote thousands of Bible passages to make "Dawah"? You don't even realize that everyone is laughing at you. My religious beliefs are a private matter. I'm a human first. I know, it's difficult to understand for you.



Haider Raza said:


> Quran Chapter 3 verse 64 (Say: "O People of the Book! (Christian, Jews etc.) come to common terms as between us and you)



Here we go again.
Let me educate you. This verse came from a time of Muhammad's life (according to Islamic history) when he was anti Polytheist but not yet anti Jewish and anti Christian. He was still hoping they would accept him as a prophet. The Jews did not (and we know how it ended for them) and later the Christians were enemies too.
It's fascinating how an alleged eternal book in heaven changes according to the life circumstances of a man. LOL

You'd have to be brain-dead to not see how the Quran is of human origin (so is the Bible of course). Muhammad's imaginary buddy Allah wants him to marry his adopted son's wife, he wants him - and only him - to have an unlimited number of wives. He doesn't want anyone to marry Muhammad's wives after his death and so on.
When I first read the Quran I had the impression that Muhammad was actually a troll trying to make fun of his followers (seeing how far he could go). Aisha, the mother of the faithful, summed it up nicely: *"I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." *(Sahih Bukhari 6:60:311)

One of the best examples of this is Sura 33:53. Best of comedy. Everyone should really read this verse.



Haider Raza said:


> Hitler had a Christian faith by the way.


He was a nominal Christian. But just like millions of Christians and Muslims he didn't REALLY believe. He even despised Christianity for its weakness (you can look up many quotes by him). If you really believe in Jesus the way the Bibles teaches, you'd have to leave family and fortune behind and go around living the life of a poor missionary. That was the example set by Jesus, his disciples (and Paul). Who does that nowadays? Only radical Christians running around somewhere in Africa. And who lives like Muhammad and his companions (i.e. the Salafi, the first generation of Muslims) today? ISIS! (including beheading, having sex slaves which the Quran calles "what your right hand possesses")

Muhammad condemns you for not fighting or wanting to fight Jihad. https://muflihun.com/muslim/20/4696
And I doubt he meant keyboard warriors. LOL



Haider Raza said:


> Look at my comments & you'll know why God stopped sending Prophets.


The reason God stopped "sending prophets" is simple. With modern technology every prophet can be exposed. That's why Joseph Smith (Mormonism) was basically the last one.


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 23, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *You don't even realize that everyone is laughing at you.
> 
> My religious business is a private matter. I'm an animal first. It's difficult to stay positive.*



So? Do I give a flying F? I'm just here to clear things up. Why should I let your lies & hate to be spread? Only potty headed people laugh & agree with you. There are some open minded people here as well & I really love there support.

Also I have corrected your words.




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *He was a nominal Christian. But just like millions of Christians and Muslims he didn't REALLY believe.
> He even despised Christianity for its weakness (you can look up many quotes by him). If you really believe in Jesus the way the Bibles teaches, you'd have to leave family and fortune behind and go around living the life of a poor missionary.*


So according to you he was an atheist who killed millions of jews? If he despised Christianity weaker what it has to do with Muslims? I think you have a nut inside your brain that's why you have these illogical reasons.

I believe what is common from Bible & Quran. You know Bible is corrupted many people have wrote there own words in there.

Like this story that I don't believe Jesus would have called a women Dog.

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to Him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to Him and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” 27 “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *The reason God stopped "sending prophets" is simple. With modern technology every prophet can be exposed.*


LOL! Oh so you made a tech that exposes a Prophet? What is that tech called BT or BM (Butt Thoughts OR Butt Mind)?


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Apr 23, 2017)

Well actually. I'm a prophet. The last one, mind you. Yesterday while you were sleeping I split the moon in two. And a while ago I went to heaven on a flying donkey. I talked to Muhammad and he said you should listen to God and his messenger, i.e. me.
God wants me to marry some of your female relatives, even if they are married. Do you happen to have a 9 year old daughter or niece? God told me so, so you better comply.


----------



## Haider Raza (Apr 23, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Well actually. I'm a dork & the last one. Yesterday while I was sleeping I split my ass in two. And a while ago I went to toilet with a donkey.*


I have corrected your words. That suits you better.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 23, 2017)

Can some mod please rename this thread to "the lowly ad-hominem thread"?
It would be a better description of its putrid dumb as fuck content already.

And someone once said the ignore function was not useful...


----------



## gamesquest1 (Apr 23, 2017)

I think this thread has run its course, it's just stupid spam at this point


----------

