# Atlus to revise two "homophobic" scenes for Persona 5 Royal's western release



## jesterscourt (Feb 19, 2020)

I wonder if they will patch the updated scenes in the original release of P5.


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## IncredulousP (Feb 19, 2020)

As much as I hate homophobia, I hate censorship. I haven't seen the scene yet, but if I were to play the game blind I'd prefer it to be unchanged.


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## Chary (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm sure there's many things to argue, from Atlus previously being in favor of "censorship" in the past (TMS#FE), or that any form of censorship is bad no matter what, but this amounts to literally 1 minute of content out of a 90+ hour RPG. I couldn't care less about the changes, honestly.


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## XDel (Feb 19, 2020)

Gay


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## matias3ds (Feb 19, 2020)

Gay = fem for the guys behand the game . There are Masculine gay guys .


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## Darksabre72 (Feb 19, 2020)

Chary said:


> I'm sure there's many things to argue, from Atlus previously being in favor of "censorship" in the past (TMS#FE), or that any form of censorship is bad no matter what, but this amounts to literally 1 minute of content out of a 90+ hour RPG. I couldn't care less about the changes, honestly.


i see your point and i can respect it, but imo i disagree with censoring a game wither it's big or small


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## James_ (Feb 19, 2020)

_insert Scott the Woz reference here_


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## whateverg1012 (Feb 19, 2020)

Just watched the original scene, it wasn't even bad, I wonder who can be sensitive enough to be offended by it.

I already played through the JP version but it sucks the west get neutered games because of a few people whining

I wonder what else Atlus USA has changed, I doubt this is the only difference.


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## ThoD (Feb 19, 2020)

Alright, this is way past absurd, why are SJWs constantly ruining great games with this bullshit? It's bad enough that only few days ago they made a great translator quit completely, but now they are getting big companies like Atlus to change their games...:/


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## DarkKaine (Feb 19, 2020)

whateverg1012 said:


> Just watched the original scene, it wasn't even bad, I wonder who can be sensitive enough to be offended by it.


About 2 or 3 overly sensitive gay people that whine on twitter, followed by a mob of people that have no clue what the context even is but retweet it and post death threats to the developers just because they like dick as well.
Current internet culture is cancer.


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## banjo2 (Feb 19, 2020)

I thought Persona 5 was already out for this generation


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## IncredulousP (Feb 19, 2020)

ThoD said:


> Alright, this is way past absurd, why are SJWs constantly ruining great games with this bullshit? It's bad enough that only few days ago they made a great translator quit completely, but now they are getting big companies like Atlus





DarkKaine said:


> About 2 or 3 overly sensitive gay people that whine on twitter, followed by a mob of people that have no clue what the context even is but retweet it and post death threats to the developers just because they like dick as well.
> Current internet culture is cancer.


And this happens with absolutely anything, not just "sjws".


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## Panzerfaust (Feb 19, 2020)

I bet, those who complained about the scene arent even gay. Just some pathetic PC soldiers.


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## kumikochan (Feb 19, 2020)

whateverg1012 said:


> Just watched the original scene, it wasn't even bad, I wonder who can be sensitive enough to be offended by it.
> 
> I already played through the JP version but it sucks the west get neutered games because of a few people whining
> 
> I wonder what else Atlus USA has changed, I doubt this is the only difference.


Sjw game journo's crying out on twitter ofcourse


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## supergamer368 (Feb 19, 2020)

shouldn’t have changed it, but at the same time whooooo caaaaares. it’s nothing game-changing so whatever. maybe atlus’ll leave it alone next time.... not.


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## Rabbid4240 (Feb 19, 2020)

Gay :/


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## Silent_Gunner (Feb 19, 2020)

Panzerfaust said:


> I bet, those who complained about the scene arent even gay. Just some pathetic PC soldiers.



I hear they're stuck in an era where they think they can REEEEEEE to get their way.



Chary said:


> I'm sure there's many things to argue, from Atlus previously being in favor of "censorship" in the past (TMS#FE), or that any form of censorship is bad no matter what, but this amounts to literally 1 minute of content out of a 90+ hour RPG. I couldn't care less about the changes, honestly.



Give them an inch, they'll demand a mile.



The best thing to do is to tell them that if they hate it so much, they can simply not buy the game...like ResetERA's broke, indebted-to-student-loans-ass was gonna do in the first place! 

And I heard that this re-release wasn't exactly selling like hotcakes either (probably because, to be quite honest, it really doesn't add much to the original that couldn't have been on the level of Mass Effect 3's Extended Cut ending was to the game it was supporting), so if this one shits the bed sales-wise, maybe ATLUS will get the stick out of their ass from Soyny and start porting ALL of their non-spinoff games to the Switch in regions other than Japan and tell Sony this:


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## chrisrlink (Feb 19, 2020)

so what a hate group  would boycot a game if unchanged boo hooo only a drop in the bucket compared to the copies sold they probably triggered more boycotts by editing those 2 scenes out


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## AkiraKurusu (Feb 19, 2020)

As a heterosexual guy myself, those two scenes were...weird. They were only really funny because Ryuji was in a bind, yknow?

This, I don't really mind disappearing. They could've easily have 'aged up' the cast (all of whom are obviously teens, especially Futaba) or not directly referenced sexual harassment/assault (...why did Kamoshida become a generic superhero in Q2?), or covered up some of the more provocative designs (Shadow Sae, a couple of Personas), but they didn't. This is incredibly minor, and I don't mind.


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## KingVamp (Feb 19, 2020)

I don't get it. They are just changing the lines? So, the scene is still going be about them trying to get away from the two, right?


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## Silent_Gunner (Feb 19, 2020)

AkiraKurusu said:


> As a heterosexual guy myself, those two scenes were...weird. They were only really funny because Ryuji was in a bind, yknow?
> 
> This, I don't really mind disappearing. They could've easily have 'aged up' the cast (all of whom are obviously teens, especially Futaba) or not directly referenced sexual harassment/assault (...why did Kamoshida become a generic superhero in Q2?), or covered up some of the more provocative designs (Shadow Sae, a couple of Personas), but they didn't. This is incredibly minor, and I don't mind.



I repeat:



Give 'em an inch, they'll ask for a mile. And knowing how Sony is now, they may not be able to call their SJW policies out for what they are since Sony seems to have the rights to the mainline Persona series if ATLUS knowing that people want Persona 5 on Switch and not delivering is any indication.


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## pedro702 (Feb 19, 2020)

i dont see anything bad with it, people nowadays get offended by everything is ridiculous. i bet someday animal protection lovers will stop every animal from being killed in a videogame even, we are reaching a point that any small thing is offensive to homosexuals, or women or this and that its getting quite annoying imo.


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## Pipistrele (Feb 19, 2020)

I don't mind - scenes are short, they were kinda iffy in context, and making a minor rewrite here and there can actually improve quality of the storytelling, so I don't think it's some morbid case of "overzealous censorship".


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## MarkDarkness (Feb 19, 2020)

There are all sorts of people in the world...there are definitely gay people like this out there. Does that mean all gay people are like that? No. And yet, we've reached a point where you are obliged to portray people a certain way "or else". It's petty and signals to bigger problems in society.


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## raxadian (Feb 19, 2020)

Playstation 4 not only has more expensive games but also censors things.  I pity the guys who bought one.

Meanwhile not only are the same games on the Switch cheaper, they usually have all the DLC incluyed in the purchasing prize.


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## Azael_inf (Feb 19, 2020)

I thought it was humourous. Oh well.


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## DJPlace (Feb 19, 2020)

if they censor anything else i'm gong kick there asses.


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## Wuigi (Feb 19, 2020)

If they would just sell this DLC at DLC prices, I would gladly buy it day one.
But I also have so many games to play until my memory of Persona 5 has faded enough that a playthrough is more enjoyable and until then the price should have reached 30$ or less anyway.


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## Xzi (Feb 19, 2020)

Is it really censorship if the developer is choosing to make the changes themselves?  At that point I think I'd consider it your run-of-the-mill cut content instead.


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## AkiraKurusu (Feb 19, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Playstation 4 not only has more expensive games but also censors things.  I pity the guys who bought one.
> 
> Meanwhile not only are the same games on the Switch cheaper, they usually have all the DLC incluyed in the purchasing prize.


Pokemon Sword/Shield. Two $30 DLC, per game, for two already massively-overpriced games.


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## The Catboy (Feb 19, 2020)

That's all well and good but I would still like a gay option!


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## Viri (Feb 19, 2020)

Chary said:


> View attachment 196916​
> In just over a month, Persona 5 will return to the PlayStation 4 to take players' hearts once more, in the updated re-release of Persona 5 Royal. The game, which already launched in Japan last October, is slated for a March 31st release in the west, where it has been confirmed that it will have two scenes edited from its original version. The changes revolve around two minor cutscenes in the game, where two "stereotypical gay men" approach the player characters as a gag, In the game's original western launch, these scenes were met with mixed reception, with certain players finding the content offensive, which has lead to Atlus USA believing that the release of Royal is the perfect time to "update it for the current generation".
> 
> In an interview exclusive to IGN, Atlus USA's Communications Manager said that these two scenes would be changed, as to not cast the men in a "negative light".
> ...



That's it? Holy hell, you'd have to be really thin skinned and tight-assed to get offended by that. Talk about pearl clutching. The only thing offensive about those two videos was just how fucking long it took for the player to press the next button. 

I can understand people getting pissed at Atlus for changing the game. It's not just the fact that Atlus is changing their game, but Atlus is also kowtowing to a bunch of offended pussies. Give them an inch, and they'll demand you censor the whole game. Yes, it's something minor, for now.


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## Pipistrele (Feb 19, 2020)

MarkDarkness said:


> There are all sorts of people in the world...there are definitely gay people like this out there. Does that mean all gay people are like that? No. And yet, we've reached a point where you are obliged to portray people a certain way "or else". It's petty and signals to bigger problems in society.


I still don't think it's a solid excuse for offensively stereotypical portrayals of minorities in media, even if I see your point on surface.

1) Sure, there are all sorts of good and bad people regardless of sexuality - but when the game almost entirely consists of ordinary straight folks, and the only two homosexual characters are portrayed as comically violent and one-dimensional predators, and writing pretty much treats that as "haha, look at those pervs", that brings up some nasty implications.
2) Two gay men in P5 aren't written as unpleasant out of "realism", nor are they malevolent in any "realistic" way - they're essentially two walking outdated stereotypes that exist specifically as a joke at expense of already stigmatized minority.


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## ShadowOne333 (Feb 19, 2020)

But why?
Who the fuck cares?
It's a videogame ffs.
If you want to convey the characters a living beings, they have to show up signs of an actual living being, and living beings in this world can be homophobic.

Why the fuck are people forcing devs and other people in the entertainment media to fit their sensitive minds?
Fuck those people. It's a way for the devs and storytellers to give a story, and depending on the story, there can be characters like this.

Seems like people just want to watch what they deem within their own restriction.
It's the 21st century people, get your asses out of your head.

It's not their story, it's the devs' story.


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## dude1 (Feb 19, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Is it really censorship if the developer is choosing to make the changes themselves?  At that point, I think I'd consider it your run-of-the-mill cut content instead.



  yes it is censorship not just cut content.

   first off you have the fact that there censoring it in the West,  but not in the Japanese release. (because of our sensibilities/getting in front of the resetEra/twitter outrage mobs.)

    that shows us that it's not their decision, or else they would censor it in every place,  they're being forced/influenced to make the change, but devils advocate let's say they did.

its still immoral for them to change it because  Persona 5 Royal is an enhanced/re-release with baked in DLC. 
so removing any content for any reason is immoral because you should be able to get the game in its entirety because that's what is being sold as.

if they want to do a complete reimagining ( keeping in mind today's sensibilities of this vocal minority of people)
 then they need to do a complete reimagining (new engine new assets etc.)

 censorship in gaming is wrong and gross,  Just as it is other industries.

 you shouldn't agree with "digital book burning" just as you agree with the censor's point of view or not.
that sets a bad precedent.


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## diggeloid (Feb 19, 2020)

The most offensive part about those scenes is that someone is wearing a hoodie at the beach. I haven't played P5 yet, but I hope there's a logical excuse for that.


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## molcos (Feb 19, 2020)

Ofc we need to censor artists because of some offended players. Once again a minuscule portion of the players gets their way and decide how we all should experience the game.

not a big thing on its own, but this sets a precedence on how victim culture will force its ugly agenda over our heads.


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## SuperDan (Feb 19, 2020)

Everything is homaphobic these day .. LGBT world ..  PC Correctness should be banned ... As it's nonsense ...   Thing is that is a complete marketing tool now...     Starbuck rainbow cups .. Ect ect...


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## Viri (Feb 19, 2020)

diggeloid said:


> The most offensive part about those scenes is that someone is wearing a hoodie at the beach. I haven't played P5 yet, but I hope there's a logical excuse for that.


Maybe he just burns up easily, and forgot to buy his sun tan lotion, and a hoodie is all he had that could block out the sun from his face!


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## Deleted User (Feb 19, 2020)

This is tame compared to a pride parade. I agree with changing it though as it's an irrelevant short gag which isn't palatable. Maybe it's a chance to fit in a better gag, though Atlus doesn't have a great track record when it comes to upgrading things *bodysuit dress ptsd intensifies*


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## raxadian (Feb 19, 2020)

AkiraKurusu said:


> Pokemon Sword/Shield. Two $30 DLC, per game, for two already massively-overpriced games.



I said "same games" you can't get Pokemon Sword and Shield on the PS4. 

I am still playing Sun and Moon.  Sure the GTS is gone but I can trade savestates with someone else then use one of the many editors to transfer Pokemon. 

With the GTS gone there is no real reason left whatever to not hack a 3DS.


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## jt_1258 (Feb 19, 2020)

Darksabre72 said:


> i see your point and i can respect it, but imo i disagree with censoring a game wither it's big or small


The thing is though is there is a line between intentionally controversial content like Doom Eternal's "Remember demon can be an offensive term. Refer to them as mortally challenged" line and what was in that scene in Persona 5 where they unintentionally went in a negative direction. I am fully on board with not censoring a work to a certain point.


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## J-Machine (Feb 19, 2020)

perhaps this is because I'm to Ace to see it but where's the homophobia in those scenes? I see one instance where buddy doesn't take no for an answer (a bad thing but it happens in real life so why shield people from it?) and then I see some silly teasing at the beach.


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## Ericthegreat (Feb 19, 2020)

I guess someone might patch it back, this is like if there was a re release of song of the south where they made the slaves just be his "African American friends who live behind his house".

Edit: watched vids, what was wrong, it was funny, shouldn't have made the devs feel awkward at all, really someone explain how I'm supposed to be offended by this, because if I watch bravo for 5 min something more weird will happen.


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## osaka35 (Feb 19, 2020)

I mean, it's not a good joke. They should have reworked it rather than cut it, but it's better than pretending it isn't an issue. It's a minor thing, but I see it as revisiting poor development decisions and choosing wiser. A QoL thing, rather than censorship.


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## Xzi (Feb 19, 2020)

dude1 said:


> so removing any content for any reason is immoral because you should be able to get the game in its entirety because that's what is being sold as.


It just depends where you personally draw the line, I suppose.  Nearly every game has content that doesn't make it to release, and I usually give the developers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to realizing their own creative vision.  Bloodborne wasn't censored and wasn't an incomplete game just because a number of bosses and encounters were cut during beta, for example.

Now, I realize that this is a slightly different situation, and you could say they were "pressured" into making this decision, but it's still ultimately Atlus' decision to make.  If it was a separate publisher or Sony shoving the changes down their throats, then my jimmies might be a bit more rustled over this situation.  It wasn't always the case obviously, but patches and DLC are the norm now, which means the development period for games can last years after initial release.  It's also important to keep things in perspective: this is four or five lines of dialogue among millions in the game, there's no way anybody would have noticed it without an announcement.



ShadowOne333 said:


> But why?
> Who the fuck cares?


Exactly, who cares.  It took Atlus less time to edit that dialogue than it did for people to type out even half of the anti-SJW whinging in this thread.


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## Daggot (Feb 19, 2020)

Saves me some money I guess.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 19, 2020)

I know gay men who act exactly like this, I don't see how this is homophobic and I wouldn't have known it was if Atlus hadn't told me. I don't see the problem, people are so sensitive these days. Can't please everyone, it seems.


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## dude1 (Feb 20, 2020)

Xzi said:


> I usually give the developers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to realizing their own creative vision.



I do as well but this isnt that kind of circumstance.

im sure there was stuff we don't even know left on the cutting room floor for this game, but it wouldn't have made it into the Japanese version thus isn't censorship.
 just unused ideas etc.



Xzi said:


> Now, I realize that this is a slightly different situation


Exactly it is a different situation



Xzi said:


> you could say they were "pressured" into making this decision, but it's still ultimately Atlus' decision to make.



just as its my decision to complain about it, then either pirate the game and/or boycott the release or future releases etc.

Typically when a company offends me I cancel pre-orders (when applicable) then either pirate and/or boycott their next game they release that i would have paid for.



Xzi said:


> If it was a separate publisher or Sony shoving the changes down their throats, then my jimmies might be a bit more rustled over this situation.  It wasn't always the case obviously, but patches and DLC are the norm now,


I would be equally as offended but my retribution wouldnt be punitive towards Atlas as they wouldn't be at fault.



Xzi said:


> patches and DLC are the norm now, which means the development period for games can last years after initial release.


this is annoying but once again we are talking censorship, its not like it was a bug and they are patching it out everywhere.
 non-western audiences get no change length of the development period for games has no bearing on this.



Xzi said:


> It's also important to keep things in perspective: this is four or five lines of dialogue among millions in the game, there's no way anybody would have noticed it without an announcement.


that perspective cuts both ways.
if its so minor that is one of the exact reasons they shouldn't bother with the change in the 1st place because the people who won't care won't care regardless, but the people like me that are principally against censorship will care.

now you could say anti-censorship people are a small minority as are the twitter complainers but i'd argue there are not only more people against censorship but even if that wasn't the case its the slippy slope argument.

once you cave to one bit of censorship why stop there



Xzi said:


> there's no way anybody would have noticed it without an announcement.


I doubt that, I'd agree fewer may have noticed immediately but there are sites that cover censorship in media and you find out sooner or later regardless of announcement.



Xzi said:


> Exactly, who cares.  It took Atlus less time to edit that dialogue than it did for people to type out even half of the anti-SJW whinging in this thread.


thats the point it took them so little time, its so minor, for the good of the game's interity and the reputation they should have left it.

if it was so bad it shouldn't be in the game it shouldn't have been put there in any public release in the first place.
 they made their choice that it was acceptable during initial release, it's hypocritical to censor now.


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## ChaosEternal (Feb 20, 2020)

I oppose the move on principal. The minuscule size of the change is irrelevant to me; I am against changes being made during the localization process beyond the bare minimum required to make a comprehensible product. That being said, I much prefer the change being made in an international release rather than being standardized across all regions. That way the developers' original intentions still exist in some form.


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## Xzi (Feb 20, 2020)

dude1 said:


> thats the point it took them so little time, its so minor, for the good of the game's interity and the reputation they should have left it.


That's not how business works, though.  If you're alienating a certain group of potential customers, and a quick/easy change can be made so that you're no longer alienating that group, that change is going to happen.  It's not about taking an ideological or political stance, it's simply about profit.



dude1 said:


> if it was so bad it shouldn't be in the game it shouldn't have been put there in any public release in the first place.
> they made their choice that it was acceptable during initial release, it's hypocritical to censor now.


Ideally, yes, a finished product should have no errors whatsoever.  Realistically, however, that's extremely rare.  To err is human, and hindsight is always 20/20.  Which is why even paper books usually end up with 2nd and/or 3rd edition prints.


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## CeeDee (Feb 20, 2020)

Those are some real ominous quotation marks...


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## spotanjo3 (Feb 20, 2020)

matias3ds said:


> Gay = fem for the guys behand the game . There are Masculine gay guys .



Very true. I hate uneducated people thinking that gay are fem. Not true. There are masculine guys who are gay.. No fems in them. I am sick of homophobic. Those people are an idiots! Stupidity, indeed.


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## dude1 (Feb 20, 2020)

Xzi said:


> That's not how business works, though.  If you're alienating a certain group of potential customers, and a quick/easy change can be made so that you're no longer alienating that group, that change is going to happen.  It's not about taking an ideological or political stance, it's simply about profit.



 we have the exact same argument on this, we just came to the  polar opposite conclusions.

my argument is Anti-SJW/Anti-censorship crowd is presumably larger albeit less vocal than the pro-censorship identitarian PC/SJW people they are catering to with these types of changes.

it least it appears either the Anti-SJW/Anti-censorship side  is the same size or smaller but despite that at the end of the day spends more money on what they like or are truly the larger of the two demographics and thus spends more money on what they like as compared to the pro-censorship identitarian PC/SJW people

there is a reason, your Anti-SJW types have ongoing lists  of "get woke, go broke"  because while not a 100% rule of law, more often than not pandering in these ways is less profitable not more.



Xzi said:


> Ideally, yes, a finished product should have no errors whatsoever.  Realistically, however, that's extremely rare.  To err is human, and hindsight is always 20/20.  Which is why even paper books usually end up with 2nd and/or 3rd edition prints.



 I don't disagree with you, which is why in the case of errors,  bug fixes etc.  patches are acceptable albeit not an ideal scenario this day and age, but once again this is not the case.
 this is censorship it has nothing to do with correcting anything or else they would correct it everywhere.

it is not a bug/error like you seem to want to conflate it to.


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## AkiraKurusu (Feb 20, 2020)

This thread should really be renamed to:
"Is A Little Bit of Censorship Acceptable?"


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Geez what a terrible movie the Sonic movie is, changing the CGI model because people were outraged. And let's not forget how terrible Pokemon Gold and Silver were in English for lengthening skirts, removing religious imagery and recoloring Jynx. Did Nintendo really think they were going to attract more sales by appealing to blackface outrage? All they did was ruin the game for people who didn't steal their copy!

And how dare they remove references to people marrying Pokemon in Diamond and Pearl, or the crossdresser in Black and White! The games and the Nintendo DS tanked due to that decision!


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## AkiraKurusu (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> Geez what a terrible movie the Sonic movie is, changing the CGI model because people were outraged. And let's not forget how terrible Pokemon Gold and Silver were in English for lengthening skirts, removing religious imagery and recoloring Jynx. Did Nintendo really think they were going to attract more sales by appealing to blackface outrage? All they did was ruin the game for people who didn't steal their copy!
> 
> And how dare they remove references to people marrying Pokemon in Diamond and Pearl, or the crossdresser in Black and White! The games and the Nintendo DS tanked due to that decision!


Well, they wouldn't really be "appealing to blackface outrage", considering there was (is it still a thing?) a Japanese fashion trend involving girls darkening their skin and having sparkly nails and other stuff, named _ganguro_. Jynx was also based on a yokai called the _Yama-uba_, which is pretty much identical to the Pokemon: tattered red kimono, dark skin, control over ice, whitish-blonde hair, large lips.
The whole "blackface" thing was a common fashion trend in Japan, but how would they know about the racial connotations it held in America, back when the Internet was in its infancy? For the Japanese audience, it would've made sense to keep the original design.


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## Bimmel (Feb 20, 2020)

Why are they changing it!? Now I don't feel represented anymore and am quite pissed. What have you done ASSLUS? How dare you? I won't buy the game, I won't buy merch, I won't buy your sweet plastic figures of under aged girls and I won't stop bitching about it until it will return to it's lovely femmy state.

Sorry, the feelings are real .. my high heels can't take it anymore .. *faints*


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## IncredulousP (Feb 20, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Is it really censorship if the developer is choosing to make the changes themselves?  At that point I think I'd consider it your run-of-the-mill cut content instead.


Edit: who changes it is irrelevant. Content was removed (censored) to block established art from having any perceived "undesirable" influence on the audience.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also it's important to point out: the game wasn't changed because of people complaining, people are going to complain about anything. It changed because the Company calculated that the best PR, and thus most sales, would be achieved by settling for the lowest common denominator--something that doesn't offend any particular group lest missing out on potential sales. It's always easy to pinpoint the blame on consumers themselves but the companies are at as much fault as them, if not much more, for choosing to react accordingly. Remember, the original was met with _mixed _reception, not critically panned. To maximize profit, appeal to _all _audiences, including the overly offended.


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## AkiraKurusu (Feb 20, 2020)

IncredulousP said:


> You're right, all of the original Star Wars trilogy edits were totally warranted and didn't detract from the original theatrical presentation...


...I actually like how Anakin's ghost was changed in Return of the Jedi; that's how he appeared back before he was lied to and manipulated by Palpatine, back when he was a Jedi. It makes sense to use Christensen's appearance instead of the previous old guy.
Also, the appearance of many other planets (e.g. Naboo, Coruscant) celebrating when the second Death Star's blown up and the Empire's destroyed truly makes it feel like the entire galaxy was happy and free, instead of just a small bunch of rebels on a forest planet. 
Oh, and the changes to the Cloud City. Makes it feel less cramped and constantly-indoors, what with how they added windows and the like everywhere. Like it's an actual "Cloud" City.

So some edits are justified. Some.


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## JayMathis (Feb 20, 2020)

I want to be excited for this, but I beat Persona 5 and have no desire to play through the entire game again from the beginning just to get to 15-20% new stuff. Did they say you have to start from the beginning?


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## Nekomaru (Feb 20, 2020)

My problem with those scenes is that the game tries to sell harassment attempts as gags and those are mostly based on the "flamboyant gayness" of those NPCs. The choice of Joker to leave Ryuji with the men is cruel - I haven't played the game until that point but if it's well designed, it should show some consequences like Ryuji skipping a dungeon or changing his attitude to Joker. The reactions of the main chars are also strange - why don't they oppose more strongly, threaten to call the police or ask for help? I know these are very abstract situations but I'm curious how would a typical Japanese react. 

Depending on what exactly the localization changes, it might get better or worse - I am against the censorship in TMS#FE for instance. Also strongly against harassing translators/localization teams what happened recently to DDSTranslations for translating "newhalf" accurately in Goemon 3.

I know the usual conventions for portraying gay/queer/flamboyant characters in Anime and games - it's a bit sad we get almost no characters where gayness/queerness is just a part of the characterization and not just a device for gags or a lazy cliche.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

IncredulousP said:


> Edit: who changes it is irrelevant. Content was removed (censored) to block established art from having any perceived "undesirable" influence on the audience.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> Also it's important to point out: the game wasn't changed because of people complaining, people are going to complain about anything. It changed because the Company calculated that the best PR, and thus most sales, would be achieved by settling for the lowest common denominator--something that doesn't offend any particular group lest missing out on potential sales. It's always easy to pinpoint the blame on consumers themselves but the companies are at as much fault as them, if not much more, for choosing to react accordingly. Remember, the original was met with _mixed _reception, not critically panned. To maximize profit, appeal to _all _audiences, including the overly offended.


I can't believe Atlus is removing the best part of the game! I preordered this game expecting high octane sexual harassment action, but they've removed it! How dare they listen to SJWs asking for the most creative and interesting parts of the game removed! The game is ruined!


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## Xzi (Feb 20, 2020)

dude1 said:


> there is a reason, your Anti-SJW types have ongoing lists of "get woke, go broke" because while not a 100% rule of law, more often than not pandering in these ways is less profitable not more.


There's zero evidence to support this, and in fact I can probably find more evidence to the contrary.  Nike and Disney are just two examples of companies which faced boycotts from hateful groups and then saw a marked increase in profits anyway.

Nine times out of ten, the right choice for a business is to avoid being exclusionary.  Otherwise we'd still have "no Irish allowed" posted in store windows in order to attract bigots.  It's an extremely niche group of people who are hateful enough to buy a product just because it offended the "right" people.  Or boycott that same product because it was revised to no longer be offensive.



dude1 said:


> it is not a bug/error like you seem to want to conflate it to.


I meant "error" in the general sense rather than in terms of coding.  Could be as simple as an oversight, or a change that should've been made out of respect for cultural differences, as is the case here.



IncredulousP said:


> You're right, all of the original Star Wars trilogy edits were totally warranted and didn't detract from the original theatrical presentation...


A fine example of the creator trashing their own creation.  Unfortunately that is their right, but the good news is that the originals still exist in abundance, as is also the case with the "uncensored" version of Persona 5.  Additionally, the majority of games are improved by patches and DLC, not harmed by them.


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## IncredulousP (Feb 20, 2020)

Xzi said:


> but the good news is that the originals still exist in abundance,


You sure? I've tried to find the original unedited theatrical release and haven't been able to. As far as I know it doesn't exist, though I found a fan edited project that tries to reproduce it from memory of those that saw it in theaters.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 20, 2020)

IncredulousP said:


> You sure? I've tried to find the original unedited theatrical release and haven't been able to. As far as I know it doesn't exist, though I found a fan edited project that tries to reproduce it from memory of those that saw it in theaters.


Oh, yeah I guess I'm not sure with Star Wars in particular.  Much easier to preserve media now than it was when that first released, obviously.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

IncredulousP said:


> You sure? I've tried to find the original unedited theatrical release and haven't been able to. As far as I know it doesn't exist, though I found a fan edited project that tries to reproduce it from memory of those that saw it in theaters.


There were multiple different cuts which made it to theaters, which is why different people remember it differently.


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## AkiraKurusu (Feb 20, 2020)

IncredulousP said:


> You sure? I've tried to find the original unedited theatrical release and haven't been able to. As far as I know it doesn't exist, though I found a fan edited project that tries to reproduce it from memory of those that saw it in theaters.





Xzi said:


> Oh, yeah I guess I'm not sure with Star Wars in particular.  Much easier to preserve media now than it was when that first released, obviously.


...That's because Lucasfilm never really allowed the theatrical release to be archived anywhere. Heck, they even refused to give the organisation tasked with preserving American classics a copy of the theatrical release, and later tried to give them one of the later edited versions.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

as a gay, for some reason, the scene doesn't bother me, its awkward and forced as hell but i wish they wouldn't censor a game just because resetera bitched about it

edit: i just rather have a game that stays true to the original developer's vision because you then you end up with something called persona 1. also like how atlus is prioritizing this altering this scene over stocking up on p5r, they cancelled my preorder on amazon.


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## guisadop (Feb 20, 2020)

who could possibly find that scene offensive?


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## raxadian (Feb 20, 2020)

Song Of The South, at least the VHS release, is only racist because the old guy telling the stories is African American and works for a white guy.  Edit: The movie is set AFTER the Civil War so he is not a slave. 

Had it been about a black man telling the stories to his two black sons the movie wouldn't be considered racist. But doing the movie that way would have been impossible back then.

Edit: Yes the tar baby is a tad racist by current standars, but the tar baby is based on African folklore.


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## DS1 (Feb 20, 2020)

So my hot take is.that this game isn't exactly a masterpiece story-wise, so I don't think anyone should be too upset by their failure to maintain the sanctity of... uhh.. whatever.

My actual opinion is that the last time I played this game was the Japanese version when it first released, and I only remember the street scene (not the beach scene), and was barely paying attention (much like most of the pointless interlude dialogue), but picked up on the homophobia despite being like mid-to-low skill in reading Japanese and was like, "Real
y? It's freakin 2016.. ."


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## MagnesG (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> This is tame compared to a pride parade. I agree with changing it though as it's an irrelevant short gag which isn't palatable. Maybe it's a chance to fit in a better gag, though Atlus doesn't have a great track record when it comes to upgrading things *bodysuit dress ptsd intensifies*


This is Atlus USA we're talking here, bunch of pc pc triggered pussies taking judgements out of their filthy asses.


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## Prior22 (Feb 20, 2020)

Any idea why the Persona series is overwhelmingly released on Sony platforms?  Would like to see some of them on Switch too.


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## osaka35 (Feb 20, 2020)

Does this honestly change anything about the story ofher than make some of the characters look less like an ahole? Do these edits better reflect rhe characters or are they important pieces to understanding them? I thought it was just a bad-taste joke which benefits the game to be removed?



IncredulousP said:


> You sure? I've tried to find the original unedited theatrical release and haven't been able to. As far as I know it doesn't exist, though I found a fan edited project that tries to reproduce it from memory of those that saw it in theaters.


Last unedited version was the...2004(?) Dvd releases. I have them somewhere. Laserdisc and vhs before that (i only have 1 of the laserdisc  ). But nothing HD, only SD. I'm not sure of the different edits prior to this, but it's the last before those cg revisionist versions.

But the fan edits do a good job of making the HD content as close to the theatericals as possible. It's what I show folks.

Expect disney to release them in 4k/8k at some point(that kind of film can go up to 16k i think), depending on what agreements were made when they got the rights.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

James_ said:


> _insert Scott the Woz reference here_


What's the reference?

I watched some of Scott's videos, but the blue border and his attempt at being funny just made me avoid watching his videos altogether.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Silent_Gunner said:


> Give them an inch, they'll demand a mile.


That's the issue nowadays. They complain about something miniscule and then they'll start demanding more changes.

Most of the time those who complain aren't even going to buy the game.


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## urbanman2004 (Feb 20, 2020)

Everybody's so sensitive nowadays and folks always try to find a way to be offended a/b something so now big corps make decisions as if they're walking on egg shells while bowing to pressure in this so-called PC culture in today's society, afraid of getting "canceled" and so the artist's vision suffers because end-product gets modified to the point contrary to how it was originally intended to be enjoyed due to "politics".


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## SG854 (Feb 20, 2020)

osaka35 said:


> Does this honestly change anything about the story ofher than make some of the characters look less like an ahole? Do these edits better reflect rhe characters or are they important pieces to understanding them? I thought it was just a bad-taste joke which benefits the game to be removed?
> 
> 
> Last unedited version was the...2004(?) Dvd releases. I have them somewhere. Laserdisc and vhs before that (i only have 1 of the laserdisc  ). But nothing HD, only SD. I'm not sure of the different edits prior to this, but it's the last before those cg revisionist versions.
> ...


2004 is definitely the edited version. The specialized version came out in 1997.




IncredulousP said:


> You sure? I've tried to find the original unedited theatrical release and haven't been able to. As far as I know it doesn't exist, though I found a fan edited project that tries to reproduce it from memory of those that saw it in theaters.





Xzi said:


> Oh, yeah I guess I'm not sure with Star Wars in particular.  Much easier to preserve media now than it was when that first released, obviously.


It is. There is a 4k scan of the original copy of the 35mm film, called project 4k77 by team negative 1. Not the negatives but its the best we got.


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## fafaldo (Feb 20, 2020)

I think most of you guys are looking at this change from the wrong angle. 

Being a gay guy myself I can tell you what if wrong in here: showing gay people like this. I know that everyone knows not every gay looks and behaves like this but somehow, magically, almost every character that appears in movies or video games is portrayed like this. And believe me - most people get and remember exactly that image afterwards and it's extremely difficult to convince them otherwise. I guess it's worth adding that for exactly the same reason I am a big opposer of pride parades - the same thing. And believe me, most of gay people I know are actually against them as well. 

So I think the word 'offensive' or 'offended' that was used in the article and is quoted by you guys is a bit too strong - it's all just about not showing this stereotypical image as it really could be harmful.

Cheers


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

fafaldo said:


> I think most of you guys are looking at this change from the wrong angle.
> 
> Being a gay guy myself I can tell you what if wrong in here: showing gay people like this. I know that everyone knows not every gay looks and behaves like this but somehow, magically, almost every character that appears in movies or video games is portrayed like this. And believe me - most people get and remember exactly that image afterwards and it's extremely difficult to convince them otherwise. I guess it's worth adding that for exactly the same reason I am a big opposer of pride parades - the same thing. And believe me, most of gay people I know are actually against them as well.
> 
> ...


I'm a heterosexual Christian guy (I don't really visit Church that often but that's not too relevant) and I don't mind the jokes that people make about my gender or religion, but God forbid it's about a different gender/religion and everything explodes with homophobic this, homophobic that, transphobic this, transphobic that, etc. Point is, you don't really see "Heterophobic" or "Chiristiaphobic" on the news as those are fine to make fun of, but anything else isn't.

Double standards.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

I just don't get why people are offended by the change. Is there a group of sexual harassers who are feeling excluded and underrepresented in video games?

Did the game director wake up one morning thinking "I'm gonna make a new Persona sequel, and a 5 second sexual harassment joke is going to be central to this vision!"? Is that what this creative vision stuff is about?

Well, I guess Star Wars is ruined because they deleted unnecessary parts of George Lucas's vision to try and make the movies more palatable.


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## DeeLaw (Feb 20, 2020)

Boesy said:


> Point is, you don't really see "Heterophobic" or "Chiristiaphobic" on the news as those are fine to make fun of, but anything else isn't.
> 
> Double standards.



There's quite a bit more to the issue than that. The reason why it matters so much to minority groups and there's not such a rush to defend the "heterosexual Christian guys" is because there was not any large scale persecution against the majority groups anyone who fits that description is a part of. Sometimes different standards are necessary for different situations. It doesn't matter if someone represents a straight white dude as a stereotypical asshole because you've seen a thousand of them with different personalities this month in the media. 
Yet despite a good number of gay people of different personalities existing, this 100+ hour game with innumerable throwaway characters has the only outwardly gay characters' sole trait as sexual harassment. That's the one of, if not the, only of these portrayals the game, and because this portrayal is so common in media it sticks in people's minds, especially for those who may not meet many gay people. It's just a bad look. 
Not only that but these images of someone as different and strange really affect people's perception a lot more than it would if some one character happens to be gay, because you've made it a defining aspect of their personality. When you misrepresent a group of people that do not generally have the power to make changes it is more damaging, and it's at least worth discussing what matters to Western culture.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> I just don't get why people are offended by the change. Is there a group of sexual harassers who are feeling excluded and underrepresented in video games?
> 
> Did the game director wake up one morning thinking "I'm gonna make a new Persona sequel, and a 5 second sexual harassment joke is going to be central to this vision!"? Is that what this creative vision stuff is about?
> 
> Well, I guess Star Wars is ruined because they deleted unnecessary parts of George Lucas's vision to try and make the movies more palatable.




Changing something that is already done shouldn't be modified, instead use a warning screen that it was produced in earlier days so folks back then had a different mindset.






In fact, it was because of censorship that Tom and Jerry: Golden Collection Vol. 2 on Blu-ray was cancelled due to the huge backlash. Even to this day, fans are still hoping it comes out.

Here's a dedicated thread about it: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=205586


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## Skelletonike (Feb 20, 2020)

Well, this is silly. 
It was a short scene that gave me a few chuckles. 

I wonder how people would react to Hard Gay nowadays. That was an awesome character.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Boesy said:


> Changing something that is already done shouldn't be modified


Then boycott the game for existing, because it's a modified version of Persona 5.
And boycott any game which receives updates.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

fafaldo said:


> I think most of you guys are looking at this change from the wrong angle.
> 
> Being a gay guy myself I can tell you what if wrong in here: showing gay people like this. I know that everyone knows not every gay looks and behaves like this but somehow, magically, almost every character that appears in movies or video games is portrayed like this. And believe me - most people get and remember exactly that image afterwards and it's extremely difficult to convince them otherwise. I guess it's worth adding that for exactly the same reason I am a big opposer of pride parades - the same thing. And believe me, most of gay people I know are actually against them as well.
> 
> ...


As far as media representation goes, the needle has moved significantly toward the positive on gay and lesbian representation in recent years, especially in televised media. Granted, a lot of it is present in badly written, DC soap operas on CW, but positive portrayals are a growing trend across the first world nonetheless.

I respect you voicing your opinion on the state of pride parades and how garish they are. It's an unpopular opinion and can earn a person quite a bit of ire. Not much else to say on the matter other than I agree.

The matter of this change itself; Another in a long line. This one is so insignificant it's difficult to get excited about. Flamboyance is a real thing. Hiding it in a video game isn't going to stop it being amusing. Not playing the game over its removal would be extreme, too. But everyone has a principled stance, I'm sure.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

Looking at some of the responses here I have to wonder why the JRPG community is first in line to "Reeee" when Western publishers censor pre-pubescent characters wearing string bikinis, but forms a strong anti-sexual harassment coalition when they see a pretty basic gay panic joke. If I may suggest something, take a chill pill - it's a joke, it's not a big deal. Your priorities are all over the place.

Besides, the scenes are tame - like I said earlier, I know people like this in real life. Some flamboyant gay guys *do* hit on straight men in this way - it happened to me, it was extremely awkward and explaining that I'm there with my fiancée and not into men led to some further shenanigans. If you think that's over the top, God forbid you ever interact with a drag queen - they can be pretty extreme. 

I think the wave of oversensitive nonsense over scenes like these is just insecurity - you don't want gays to be misrepresented so much that you choose the path of least resistance when in reality those scenarios are totally plausible. What, you don't want flamboyant gays to be represented in video games? How un-woke - I'm disappointed. 

Here's a suggestion - go out more. Go clubbing. You'll quickly notice that people are pretty diverse. Things are only as "offensive" as you choose them to be. They're not bashing gays, they're not saying that gays are inferior, they're depicting a specific kind of a gay person which, spoilers, does exist.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

I will fight to the death for lolis in string bikinis.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> I will fight to the death for lolis in string bikinis.


That's fair, but you have to admit there's some cognitive dissonance here.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

Foxi4 said:


> That's fair, but you have to admit there's some cognitive dissonance here.


Not necessarily. We mustn't collectivize a diverse group of people after all. Wouldn't that be bad?


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> Not necessarily. We mustn't collectivize a diverse group of people after all. Wouldn't that be bad?


I think sexualised depictions of children are, by and large, "bad".  I fully understand that people are "diverse" and if that's how you rustle your jimmies then that's fine since it's a 3D model and none of it is real, but it's most definitely in bad taste.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Foxi4 said:


> I think sexualised depictions of children are, by and large, "bad".  I fully understand that people are "diverse" and if that's how you rustle your jimmies then that's fine since it's a 3D model and none of it is real, but it's most definitely in bad taste.


Isn't the age of consent 13 in Japan? Whether we agree or not, that's what's normal for Japan and they shouldn't have to change because some foreigners feel offended.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

The point was about cognitive dissonance. The joke somehow turned into an uncomfortable accusation. Who do I complain to about this?

@Boesy 
This is a myth of sorts that keeps getting perpetuated. The national age of consent in Japan is antiquated and overruled by age of consent laws set by each prefecture. None of which are below 16.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

Boesy said:


> Isn't the age of consent 13 in Japan? Whether we agree or not, that's what's normal for Japan and they shouldn't have to change because some foreigners feel offended.


I get where you're coming from, but when people pull the age of consent argument, I can't help but feel that their neck is itchy while they type it out. You know it ain't right when you see it - doth protest too much. You're also missing the point - I am also against censorship, I'm merely calling a spade a spade. If you're going to be offended by one and not the other, the game isn't the problem - you're the problem.


FGFlann said:


> The point was about cognitive dissonance. The joke somehow turned into an uncomfortable accusation. Who do I complain to about this?
> 
> @Boesy
> This is a myth of sorts that keeps getting perpetuated. The national age of consent in Japan is antiquated and overruled by age of consent laws set by each prefecture. None of which are below 16.


Not an accusation, rather a generalised observation - I was talking about the community at large, not you specifically. I don't like my games censored either, I simply said that JRPG's have way worse content in them on the reg that people wholeheartedly defend all day long.


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## horokeusama (Feb 20, 2020)

Those weren't homophobic lines. The characters themselves are comic reliefs.

I hate this general SJW argument that you can't depict gay people in a funny way because that's supposedly offensive.

This isn't real life, you aren't offending homossexuals because you see a comic scene in a videogame.

I can't stand this shit anymore. I'll just vote with my wallet and pirate whenever possible.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

Foxi4 said:


> Not an accusation, rather a generalised observation - I was talking about the community at large, not you specifically. I don't like my games censored either, I simply said that JRPG's have way worse content in them on the reg that people wholeheartedly defend all day long.


What I was getting at is that the people doing one are not necessarily the same ones doing the other. Thus cognitive dissonance isn't the best descriptor. Rather we could consider there being two camps in the JRPG community, the degenerates and the prudes.

Now everyone needs to pick a side.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> What I was getting at is that the people doing one are not necessarily the same ones doing the other. Thus cognitive dissonance isn't the best descriptor. Rather we could consider there being two camps in the JRPG community, the degenerates and the prudes.
> 
> Now everyone needs to pick a side.


That's offensive to me, degeneracy is a spectrum! That's a neanderthal way to describe things, you should be ashamed! *wink wink*


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

I'll put you down as degenerate adjacent.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> I'll put you down as degenerate adjacent.


Nobody can put me down in general once they try me, I have an addictive personality. We can be adjacent together, insert gay panic joke here.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Should be worth mentioning that in Japan, there's never really been a stigma about gay people, at least not in the same way as the west. They once criminalized homosexuality to keep up with the western world then overturned it in a few years because they thought it was an absurd law which made no sense. These stereotypes when they appear in Japanese media are imported from the west to make fun of western stereotypes which are just so absurd to a Japanese person. Noone in Japan ever thought gay people are fruity minions of the devil.

In the west these stereotypes exist because they're what westerners imagined gay people to be like and I sometimes come across people who think of gay people as degenerates trying to destroy society. Personally I've befriended one of these people without knowing until she told me she hated me when we first met but she warmed up to me and found that I'm nothing like what she expected a gay person to be and we share a lot of values.

Certainly doesn't help that pride parades are basically public indecency parades which do nothing but reinforce the stigmas.

Basically the trope doesn't have the same meaning in Japan as it does in America where the line between fiction and reality is smudged for a lot of people. And there's a link between homophobia and the examples people are shown.


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## Viri (Feb 20, 2020)

Personally, I hope the Royal sells bad in the west, just as bad as it did in Japan. Not because of censorship, but because they're releasing the same game, on the same platform, with a tiny bit more content, for full 60 dollars. This shit should have been DLC! It would teach them a lesson on DLC. Fuck making me play another 100 hour game to see the new shit.

Also, the new box art looks like shit compared to the old one.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> Should be worth mentioning that in Japan, there's never really been a stigma about gay people, at least not in the same way as the west. They once criminalized homosexuality to keep up with the western world then overturned it in a few years because they thought it was an absurd law which made no sense. These stereotypes when they appear in Japanese media are imported from the west to make fun of western stereotypes which are just so absurd to a Japanese person. Noone in Japan ever thought gay people are fruity minions of the devil.
> 
> In the west these stereotypes exist because they're what westerners imagined gay people to be like and I sometimes come across people who think of gay people as degenerates trying to destroy society. Personally I've befriended one of these people without knowing until she told me she hated me when we first met but she warmed up to me and found that I'm nothing like what she expected a gay person to be and we share a lot of values.
> 
> ...


The line between fiction and reality is smudged for a lot of people because they're actually stupid enough to think that a typical gamer will play Persona 5, get to that point in the game, see the scene, grab a bat and bash a gay man's skull in. The joke works the same way in the west as it does in Japan - a gay man is hitting on a straight man, the straight man is uncomfortable and runs away, curtain down. The problem is the moral police rolling in with the presumption that this is demeaning and will somehow change people's attitudes towards gay people. It's a weird drive to foster "positive messaging" that completely neglects to account for the fact that none of this is real and that anyone with an IQ higher than that of a kumkwat knows that this is a joke and it's not meant to be taken seriously. It's the death of humour mixed with moral gatekeeping.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

People who watched this are still alive and have children and grandchildren.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> People who watched this are still alive and have children and grandchildren.


Ah yes - a stranger danger propaganda video from the 50's - my favourite form of entertainment after lunch. Are we also going to pull out adverts for radioactive face cream or amphetamine-based weight loss supplements, both of which were totally a thing? 

Couple problems here - you're comparing apples to oranges, you're grossly overestimating the longevity of ads like this and underestimating the current generation's attitude towards homosexuality. If anything, people are bombarded with messaging of the opposite variety, so much so that it's become a little tiring.

I'm sure that homophobes exist, but the cross-over between those homophobes and dedicated Persona aficionados is probably rather limited. I'm not saying that the barking has no bite to it, but perhaps it's up the wrong tree.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

@Snugglevixen
I'd say it's important that you afford the same benefit of the doubt to the western audience of Persona 5 that you would to a Japanese audience. If we continue to hold the bigotry of a century past over the people of today, then we are tacitly admitting that we do not believe in our own efforts to better our society despite all the evidence that we have done so. That in itself will breed resentment.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Foxi4 said:


> The joke works the same way in the west as it does in Japan - a gay man is hitting on a straight man, the straight man is uncomfortable and runs away.


You mean a creepy weirdo is hitting on a normal person.
I got hit on in a similar way at school by a girl I had a crush on, sure as hell wasn't straightness which caused me to start taking sick leave for panic attacks after weeks of trying to ditch her.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> You mean a creepy weirdo is hitting on a normal person.
> I got hit on in a similar way at school by a girl I had a crush on, sure as hell wasn't straightness which caused me to start taking sick leave for panic attacks after weeks of trying to ditch her.


Wait a minute, you had a crush on her, she hit on you and you ditched her? What is this manouver, how does it work and what's the benefit?  All jokes aside, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience. Does that mean that we should now do the "three monkeys" routine and purge these kinds of scenes from all media? Because it does happen, y'know - and it is funny, albeit a rather low tier of comedy.


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## Vyrr (Feb 20, 2020)

I think it's just a minor scene and i don't think personally of this at all. I even forgot if there is this scene before lol


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

Vyrr said:


> I think it's just a minor scene and i don't think personally of this at all. I even forgot if there is this scene before lol


Right? I wouldn't have known it even existed if Atlus hadn't told me, and I've put hours upon hours into P5.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Foxi4 said:


> Right? I wouldn't have known it even existed if Atlus hadn't told me, and I've put hours upon hours into P5.


Exactly why the argument that they're ruining the game by removing it doesn't hold up.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> Exactly why the argument that they're ruining the game by removing it doesn't hold up.


This being a value judgement is an argument from principle. You couldn't ask an anti-censorship activist to provide more evidence that a change to the game objectively ruins it, because the change itself is the evidence.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> Exactly why the argument that they're ruining the game by removing it doesn't hold up.


I think for many people it's more a matter of principle - it's a solution in search of a problem. I much prefer when artists stand up for their art than when they kowtow to a vocal minority of fickle customers. The X is in the upper right-hand corner, guys. Better yet, don't buy it at all, that saves you the trouble of having to complain later. There's a lot to be said about artistic license - if you treat yourself this seriously, perhaps a lighthearted adventure with a central theme of exaggerated vices, which is ever-present in the entirety of the game and the palaces in particular, is not for you. Something tells me that things like this serve as a mirror, and some people don't like what they see. You don't have to neuter media you don't like - you can simply choose not to consume them.


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## Meepers55 (Feb 20, 2020)

AkiraKurusu said:


> Pokemon Sword/Shield. Two $30 DLC, per game, for two already massively-overpriced games.


It's $30 for both expansions, which is pretty cheap for triple-A expansion passes. If you feel inclined to buy it twice for the game you chose to buy twice, that's on you. 

Plus, the original point was referring to ports, not first-party titles.


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## DJPlace (Feb 20, 2020)

i wonder if there going censor the first boss... if that's the case.... (loads SHOTGUN)


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

DJPlace said:


> i wonder if there going censor the first boss... if that's the case.... (loads SHOTGUN)


That's a good point, actually.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

Most of what Kamoshida did was told through implication and was annoyingly inexplicit. I'm still not sure if he diddled Ann or not.


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## Viri (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> I just don't get why people are offended by the change. Is there a group of sexual harassers who are feeling excluded and underrepresented in video games?


Most aren't offended by the line it self being changed, they're more pissed because they believe they changed the line to appease Twitter, Reset Era, and "game journalist".

Also, I don't think using Star Wars is a good idea to prove your point when it comes to "small changes" and people getting up in arms. Star Wars fans get fucking livid over small changes, you know, "Han shot first!"? Some of the small changes made to the movies did kinda ruin a lot of the "special effects".


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## Meepers55 (Feb 20, 2020)

The change doesn't effect the game in a major way, but it's still a rather pointless change. Having the scene there isn't really going to have an effect on the sales of a rerelease that probably wasn't going to sell that well in the first place, and changing it will either positively or negatively effect sales given their target audience. Is taking this risk a better option?

Now this case of censorship may be small, but it is also revealing. The ones in charge of localisation think that westerners aren't able to take a joke, nor are they capable of understanding the sense of humor that's common in the game's country of origin. 

Whether you're fond of the joke or not, you'd have to ask yourself: is changing this scene really worth it? Those in charge sure seem to think it's big enough to impact their reputation, but as others said, it's just one minute of an otherwise massive game. Since it's so minor, is the effort needed to change it really worth it? How would changing this be beneficial to consumers? At least if it stays, they'd get to gain an understanding of what another culture may find to be humorous. Or is it just better to ignore the other perspective because the joke is hit-or-miss? I'm not too sure myself. 

Whatever the answer, it's still a change that shows just how little the localisation team thinks westerners can handle, which they may actually be right about. I, for one, am open to having any of these questions answered.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> Most of what Kamoshida did was told through implication and was annoyingly inexplicit. I'm still not sure if he diddled Ann or not.


I got the impression that she was next on the list, but successfully rebuffed him, and then they stole his heart. Either way, creepy, which was the whole point of the chapter.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

Foxi4 said:


> I think for many people it's more a matter of principle - it's a solution in search of a problem. I much prefer when artists stand up for their art than when they kowtow to a vocal minority of fickle customers. The X is in the upper right-hand corner, guys. Better yet, don't buy it at all, that saves you the trouble of having to complain later. There's a lot to be said about artistic license - if you treat yourself this seriously, perhaps a lighthearted adventure with a central theme of exaggerated vices, which is ever-present in the entirety of the game and the palaces in particular, is not for you. Something tells me that things like this serve as a mirror, and some people don't like what they see. You don't have to neuter media you don't like - you can simply choose not to consume them.


Because 5 seconds of a generic throwaway gag which adds nothing of value to the game and was probably just thrown in by a random dev during the game's padding phase of development is artistic value. If I made a video game I'd be humiliated that this is where people dig their feet in the sand to defend my perceived creativity.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

What is art, and what gives it value?


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

fuckers out there really want a homophobia mode


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## osaka35 (Feb 20, 2020)

Why would y'll want this to be kept in, anyway? Take the cringe out makes for a better game, in my opinion.




SG854 said:


> 2004 is definitely the edited version. The specialized version came out in 1997.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh, it was 2006. They released a limited edition dvd set with the "theatrical" version in celebration of the 40th anniversary, with none of the lucas "enhancements". though they probably kept the "episode IV" and whatnot, but it's closest we're gonna get until disney decides their move. It's the last time the "theatrical" versions were officially released anyway. There's a wiki somewhere about all the different ones out there.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> What is art, and what gives it value?


I went to the city gallery in the weekend with a Korean tourist to look at random bits of literal garbage stuck together in no particular pattern and called art. One exhibit was literally just a pile of aluminum shavings. On the other end of the gallery was a theater showing an African music video singing about sexual compatibility with a girl according to the subtitles. My taxes paid to show tourists a pile of scrap metal and a lecherous African.


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> I went to the city gallery in the weekend with a Korean tourist to look at random bits of literal garbage stuck together in no particular pattern and called art. One exhibit was literally just a pile of aluminum shavings. On the other end of the gallery was a theater showing an African music video singing about sexual compatibility with a girl according to the subtitles. My taxes paid to show tourists a pile of scrap metal and a lecherous African.


That's not answering the question though.  But think about it. If this is considered art, as anything could be, its value is clearly ascribed by the individual. You see no value in it, but someone else obviously does or it wouldn't be there. Similarly, people see the integrity of a work as paramount, and violating that integrity is egregious to them, no matter how slight it may seem to another.


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## Deleted User (Feb 20, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> That's not answering the question though.  But think about it. If this is considered art, as anything could be, its value is clearly ascribed by the individual. You see no value in it, but someone else obviously does or it wouldn't be there. Similarly, people see the integrity of a work as paramount, and violating that integrity is egregious to them, no matter how slight it may seem to another.


I think it's more like they had some garbage lying around and could use a quick buck


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## FGFlann (Feb 20, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> I think it's more like they had some garbage lying around and could use a quick buck


I wouldn't deny the possibility.


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## Spider_Man (Feb 20, 2020)

shouldn't matter if a game has something gay or not.


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## Randy Steele (Feb 20, 2020)

That's pretty gay.
This is censorship regardless of how minuscule it is and I can never agree with any type of censorship. But at least Kotaku is finally happy.


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## Darksabre72 (Feb 20, 2020)

jt_1258 said:


> The thing is though is there is a line between intentionally controversial content like Doom Eternal's "Remember demon can be an offensive term. Refer to them as mortally challenged" line and what was in that scene in Persona 5 where they unintentionally went in a negative direction. I am fully on board with not censoring a work to a certain point.


when you put it that way i can agree with your statement, just wish that minor stuff (besides dialogue to a degree) wasn't censored. hopefully companies stop censoring games that literally doesn't attack people by culture or gender, jokes that are taken heavily out of context,  or just by a few people complaining online about it.


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## banjo2 (Feb 20, 2020)

The scenes were in the western releases but not Japan? If not, are they only being removed from the western releases?


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## ChaosEternal (Feb 21, 2020)

osaka35 said:


> Why would y'll want this to be kept in, anyway? Take the cringe out makes for a better game, in my opinion.


Principle. If the original developers concluded that the game is better without it, then I'm all for changing it. It's essentially an evolution of the original design in that case. When localizers make the decision for them, in my eyes it is no longer an evolution, but rather a modification. I would genuinely rather have a game that is untouched by localizers and worse for it than a game that is made better by their modifications. I don't blame them for making changes; I understand the business rationale behind it. I simply disagree with the idea of it on principle. It frustrates me when I'm unable to consume foreign media in the same form* that the domestic audience did.

*(Excluding translations, of course. That's a conundrum that inherently lacks a perfect solution short of learning the language yourself.)


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## MagnesG (Feb 21, 2020)

fafaldo said:


> I think most of you guys are looking at this change from the wrong angle.
> 
> Being a gay guy myself I can tell you what if wrong in here: showing gay people like this. I know that everyone knows not every gay looks and behaves like this but somehow, magically, almost every character that appears in movies or video games is portrayed like this. And believe me - most people get and remember exactly that image afterwards and it's extremely difficult to convince them otherwise. I guess it's worth adding that for exactly the same reason I am a big opposer of pride parades - the same thing. And believe me, most of gay people I know are actually against them as well.
> 
> ...


The setting is totally accurate and feasible, can't even discuss about stereotypes when all kinds of  tropes and kinks had been practiced in the game. There's even another character that had been in quite a good person spotlight if you really did played the game, did we really to make a checklist of "good representation" to all of the LBGTQ+++ to satisfy all the demands? Make sure to include one for each, and make it totally wholesome according to the "fantasy" standards? Why not act like a normal human being where there are those who are assholes or saints? If you people want to be treated like a normal person, act like one. Don't flap that orientation card asking to be treated like "special".

Also, it's not being gay that was the problem, it was being predators who lustfully latching on virgin boys open in the beach. The joke was damn funny even with the cringe because I've seen and heard enough of those gay parades acting like such in the wild. There are tons of sex criminals obsessing about sex who exploit innocent people just for their satisfaction, exposed. It's not about the sex orientation, it's about the predator behavior like how the game even deals with prostitution.

Imo this the gender study brainwash fiasco all over again, especially in the west and infected European countries.


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## Clydefrosch (Feb 21, 2020)

Jesus, it's a change to entirely pointless scenes to be less japanesey in regards to something we here in the west are less backwards on. 

It doesn't hurt your gameplay, it doesn't change the story, it's themes, anything. This doesn't even qualify as censoring to me.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



MagnesG said:


> The joke was damn funny even with the cringe because I've seen and heard enough of those gay parades acting like such in the wild. There are tons of sex criminals obsessing about sex who exploit innocent people just for their satisfaction, exposed. It's not about the sex orientation, it's about the predator behavior like how the game even deals with prostitution.
> 
> Imo this the gender study brainwash fiasco all over again, especially in the west and infected European countries.


 So you heard about that, did you? 
Was it on a YouTube video with a guy wearing a god hates f*gs shirt? 

The rest of that post also strongly indicates that if you're the kind of person to be irked by that change, it's definitely right to change it.


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## Deleted User (Feb 21, 2020)

ChaosEternal said:


> Principle. If the original developers concluded that the game is better without it, then I'm all for changing it.


So basically anything the developer does is right and they know better than the audience.
You should become a movie critic.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Clydefrosch said:


> Jesus, it's a change to entirely pointless scenes to be less japanesey in regards to something we here in the west are less backwards on.
> 
> It doesn't hurt your gameplay, it doesn't change the story, it's themes, anything. This doesn't even qualify as censoring to me.
> 
> ...


The scene is actually based on stereotypes imported from the west.


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## MagnesG (Feb 21, 2020)

Clydefrosch said:


> Jesus, it's a change to entirely pointless scenes to be less japanesey in regards to something we here in the west are less backwards on.
> 
> It doesn't hurt your gameplay, it doesn't change the story, it's themes, anything. This doesn't even qualify as censoring to me.
> 
> ...


"So you heard about that, did you"?
Lol fuck off, stranger.

Oh and here comes the pc pussies giving judgements from their asses again.

I'm just here telling people to feel less triggered about something something just because. I can't even give a fuck about your orientation, just like how I don't give a fuck about races or your home country. Would I automatically associate such disgusting acts whenever I see your gay faces? I don't, because you're another person. It was a joke, as lame as what you think it is, doesn't mean it correlates with the whole orientation spectrum. So why feel so entitled and triggered? Well, unless you're one of them predators.

For the record, I just felt silly on how the localizers can come to this conclusion, and felt more ridiculous they actually went down with it! The interviews, the admittance and their pomposity on their SJW's work,  the pride showing, it was such a goldmine to read. Still, because I'm not really a fan of the game itself, I don't have such strong reaction for what the localizers had done.

I just felt sorry for devs, kinda tad a bit. "Less backwards" West as per your definition, means less fun, generic, oversensitive atmosphere and quite easy to be suffocate of, full of anxiety issues and suicides thoughts. What a shithole place to live in.


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## ChaosEternal (Feb 21, 2020)

Snugglevixen said:


> So basically anything the developer does is right and they know better than the audience.
> You should become a movie critic.


I essentially said that, as a rule, I desire the product as it was released in its domestic market. That's the product I hope for before its localized. If the original developer decides they want to change it globally in some way, then I accept that in much the same way that I would accept a patch or an update. They changed their mind and that's fine. When a third party makes that change, then I regard it as content intended for the user being removed or altered. Better or worse doesn't even enter the equation for me. Is that some great sin on my part? Am I not allowed to have my own preferences on how media is released?


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## Dr.Hacknik (Feb 21, 2020)

I mean, as someone who's bisexual and trans.... This is just stupid. It was a little funny. Only a little funny though, mostly because it was more painfully cringe than hilarious.

Although it doesn't deserve being removed, it's not like it's offendi- oh wait... Twitter exists.


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## Clydefrosch (Feb 21, 2020)

MagnesG said:


> Lol fuck off
> 
> pc pussies
> unless you're one of them predators.
> ...



yeah, you don't have such a strong reaction alright.

The funny thing is, when a show or a game inserts gay characters in a positive light, the people that bitch and moan about "sjw" and "pc culture"  are also the type to cry pc pussies ruining the game with their sjw agenda.

But when they're shown as child molesters, then god damnit, it's fucking art that deserves protection.

Yeah man, you fuck right off.


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## Clydefrosch (Feb 21, 2020)

ChaosEternal said:


> I essentially said that, as a rule, I desire the product as it was released in its domestic market. That's the product I hope for before its localized. If the original developer decides they want to change it globally in some way, then I accept that in much the same way that I would accept a patch or an update. They changed their mind and that's fine. When a third party makes that change, then I regard it as content intended for the user being removed or altered. Better or worse doesn't even enter the equation for me. Is that some great sin on my part? Am I not allowed to have my own preferences on how media is released?



you talk about this stuff as if they ruined the vision of one person crafting each and every scene and throwaway line for a bigger purpose, when these games are cobbled together by rooms full of people that, beyond the main plot and a few adjacent side plots, usually add things rather willy nilly just to fill content holes. this scene isn't a part of the message the game is conveying.
especially translated to western audiences, it's just randomly sending a pretty insulting message out of nowhere.

in japan, where this type of insult towards homosexuals is still much more mainstream (that doesn't make it better btw, it just means that even fewer people would bat an eye over it, the same way gays in the 60's mostly just endured this stuff) and this type of comedy (the emphasizing stereotypic depiction of various character archetypes where just not acting like any human is half of the comedy) at the very least is contextualized a little bit as being not exclusively insulting for the sake of insult, so it's borderline less problematic if that is your actual frame of reference.

but thrown into the west, where we're mostly past this humor based exclusively on stereotype, insult of minorities and overemphasized depiction of outward appearances (think 1930's black characters in cartoons), this scene overall conveys a very different message. 
and changing this of all scenes is so inconsequential for the other 90 hours of this game, you very honestly do have to wonder about peoples intentions here. are they -actually- complaining about 'censorship' and do they have any idea what censorship actually means and intends to do, or if they're just complaining that they're losing a game that openly insulted a certain minority (or a panty shot in a smash game, or some tits bouncing more, or a very annoying minigame where you can grope people)

Because I honestly can't see anyone complaining about censorship or demanding a restoration patch if they'd make some characters dress shorter in the west, or if kasumis boobs jiggled even more, or if you could grab Nowi by the pussy in FE, or if they added more random insults or whatever.

this is a throwaway scene so far removed from any meaningful element of the plot, you could replace it with anything and it wouldn't make any difference to anyone but the people that might get upset about being depicted as pedophiles.


you can think about this however you want, obviously. but your perspective is pretty silly if you apply it 100% no discussion to every instance of localization happening.


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## PerfectB (Feb 21, 2020)

This thread probably shouldn't even exist.  This is another shining example of both sides of an argument really just making asses of themselves, as internet culture is quick to do these days.

Since gaming came about, we've had localization changes, for better or worse, and especially with JRPGs. Whether it's because there's a reference to some folklore or history that we wouldn't get in the West, a joke that's hard to get to land after translation, and occasionally (as it appears in this case) cultural differences insofar as something that could be offensive.

Should the scene exist in the first place? I don't know, I'm not Japanese.  Maybe the joke lands there with no issues; maybe the scene is so ridiculous it's obviously a joke, whereas in America hyperbole doesn't come off that way sometimes.  Should the scene have been changed in the original localization?  Maybe, you'd think the US division would have scratched their heads about this one.  Which leads us to:

Should there have been an outrage culture uproar?  Probably not.  These things snowball so quickly--there's likely retweets and video reactions and opinions for/against the change from people who don't even know what Persona is, aren't interested in buying the game, maybe don't buy or play videogames at all.  Who could tell?  It's really impossible to know if there is an extremely loud minority group, or if a tweet or two is enough for a 'game journalist' to pick up the story and roll with a blip on the radar that wouldn't have even trended otherwise.

Is the scene offensive?  Depends on the viewer.  There's probably people who find it funny of all orientations, and people who find it in poor taste of all orientations.  

Did the scene need censored based on internet outrage?  I'm going with no.  It doesn't really add anything of artistic value, changing it doesn't take anything away from the game, but that's not really the point.  It's fairly ingrained that a lot people in the US dislike censorship--there's a firmly held belief in freedom of expression.  Why I would defend expression that some might deem hateful or tasteless is because the reason you have the freedom to disagree is based on their freedom to be hateful or tasteless.  You can't infringe on one side because you don't like it; you'll find that setting that precedent means your ability to have contrasting opinions will infringed upon.  If the game contains content that you don't like, vote with your money...if you don't like that the game was changed based on internet opinions, vote with your money.

How many of you changed your opinion on purchasing this release because of this anyway?  Supposing that you intended to purchase it to begin with, of course.


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## Viri (Feb 21, 2020)

Randy Steele said:


> But at least Kotaku is finally happy.


Yeah, at least Kotaku won't accuse Atlus of having the word "Retard" in their song lyrics again, after not taking the 5 minutes of Googling the lyrics to a song in Persona 3.


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## ChaosEternal (Feb 21, 2020)

Clydefrosch said:


> Because I honestly can't see anyone complaining about censorship or demanding a restoration patch if they'd make some characters dress shorter in the west, or if kasumis boobs jiggled even more, or if you could grab Nowi by the pussy in FE, or if they added more random insults or whatever.
> 
> this is a throwaway scene so far removed from any meaningful element of the plot, you could replace it with anything and it wouldn't make any difference to anyone but the people that might get upset about being depicted as pedophiles.
> 
> ...


I would complain if the localizers made those theoretical changes. The one scenario that might not irk me is if they solely added content. However, if I felt that said content detracted from the rest of the game, then I'd still be annoyed. Call it silly if you wish, that's your right just as much as it is mine to complain. I'm a purist. I even like it when untranslatable jokes are given translator's notes. That's not to say that I would choose not to purchase a game over small changes. I don't play Persona, but if I did this wouldn't dissuade me from purchasing it. It wouldn't have even the slightest impact on my purchasing decision. All of the religious censorship in old JRPGs annoys me, but that doesn't keep me from playing them. My belief takes a different route. If given an uncensored version I will, barring other unrelated downsides, purchase it 100% over the censored version.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 21, 2020)

So, the issue lies in their portrayal? I'm at an absolute loss here. On the one hand, this is a minor issue. So small that it really shouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, should it really matter? The things people take issue with these days. The white knights defending something, and the opposite crowd throwing insults about the white knights. This is stupid. Gaming shouldn't be such an absurd joke, but here we are.


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## Deleted User (Feb 21, 2020)

Clydefrosch said:


> yeah, you don't have such a strong reaction alright.
> 
> The funny thing is, when a show or a game inserts gay characters in a positive light, the people that bitch and moan about "sjw" and "pc culture"  are also the type to cry pc pussies ruining the game with their sjw agenda.
> 
> ...


Personally I don't like it when a positive portrayal gets ruined by drawing a disproportionate amount of attention to the fact. Makes it feel less genuine and more like they're just using homosexuality as a marketing tool to make money. Also angers the anti-sjw sjws who then get angry at homosexuals and the 'gay agenda'

Overwatch comics did it right imo until the writer went on a twatter virtue signal.
I think people would still have gotten upset anyway without the twatter post because of a lack of notable straight character relationship reveals, and Soldier 76 was basically the male identity bait for insecure males to identify with.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 21, 2020)

Like, I get people wanting to change things, to make it better so as to not be hurtful and so on. Don't get me wrong. But as for ResetEra, they can fucking die in a fire.


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## samcambolt270 (Feb 21, 2020)

I'm confused. They want to remove a few short scenes simply because there were characters in it that were ever so slightly stereotypical in portrayal? There's an entire dungeon in p4 that is exclusively comprised of steretypical homosexual references, but that wasn't a problem?


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## the_randomizer (Feb 21, 2020)

samcambolt270 said:


> I'm confused. They want to remove a few short scenes simply because there were characters in it that were ever so slightly stereotypical in portrayal? There's an entire dungeon in p4 that is exclusively comprised of steretypical homosexual references, but that wasn't a problem?



ResetEra is cancer and needs to be eradicated, along with their dumbass moderators and members


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## Deleted User (Feb 21, 2020)

samcambolt270 said:


> I'm confused. They want to remove a few short scenes simply because there were characters in it that were ever so slightly stereotypical in portrayal? There's an entire dungeon in p4 that is exclusively comprised of steretypical homosexual references, but that wasn't a problem?


I've heard P5 is the first game in the series to be mainstream.


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## FGFlann (Feb 21, 2020)

Some definitely considered it a problem, but consider when P4 was released. The cultural impetus to generate this kind of outrage just wasn't here yet.


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## m_babble (Feb 21, 2020)

Edgelord central with all the "SJW" comments.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 21, 2020)

m_babble said:


> Edgelord central with all the "SJW" comments.



Defending those ResetEra dumbasses, are you? Sad.


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## MagnesG (Feb 21, 2020)

Clydefrosch said:


> yeah, you don't have such a strong reaction alright.
> 
> *The funny thing is, when a show or a game inserts gay characters in a positive light, the people that bitch and moan about "sjw" and "pc culture"  are also the type to cry pc pussies ruining the game with their sjw agenda.*
> 
> ...


Suddenly all this narratives had becomes a case of art protection? Orientation is so important, they had to become a major association for every issue? Also, when did this happen? Did I bitch about the other character in the good spotlight in the game? You still didn't know about it don't you?

Keep projecting the set narratives homophobic 101 that you had. No one felt that upset about the changes, it's the attitude that was the problem. The fact that buzzwords like homophobic being thrown around like candies only means that certain people are always oversensitive with no adequate reason at all. No fun allowed or humor, always insecure, virtue signalling is a must.

I would say keep going, man. As insufferable as it is to live like that, I know some people like to do this to feel good about themselves.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 21, 2020)

People who actively defend ResetEra's whining are all delusional and should never be taken seriously.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 21, 2020)

Amusingly enough I have had functionally identical situations happen to me in real life (decades of skateboards, pushbikes and walking everywhere have left with me legs that are apparently catnip to a certain type of gentleman, in addition to making it hard to roll up my trousers). Considered it flattering and carried on waiting for the train, and other times wandered off.

Didn't know I was involved in homophobic incidents when it occurred. This changes everything. Might have to seek therapy now.


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## DS1 (Feb 22, 2020)

samcambolt270 said:


> I'm confused. They want to remove a few short scenes simply because there were characters in it that were ever so slightly stereotypical in portrayal? There's an entire dungeon in p4 that is exclusively comprised of steretypical homosexual references, but that wasn't a problem?



The scenes in Persona 5 are jokes, like, "lol, look at the uncomfortable situation that this straight dude is put in!" The audience is meant to feel like it's gross for the central characters. It 'feels' super out of place in a series that ended up being popular among people with more 'progressive' attitudes towards sexuality, but again, it's difficult to know whether that's a cultural difference or just lazy writing.

 The dungeon in Persona 4 was a manifestation one character's internalized homophobia. It makes sense that it is a bunch of stereotypes, because you're looking into the psyche of someone who IS made uncomfortable by those things. Some people could have mistaken it for humor, but it was really trying to be sympathetic to an otherwise goofy character (he was supposed to be a caricature of hypermasculinity).

There are some people that DID have a problem with the latter, but for different reasons, and they are definitely in the minority.


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## Viri (Feb 22, 2020)

This thread just proves to me that Nintendo has a point in not wanting to bring Mother 3 to the west. Half of you will get triggered by x y z scene, the other half will get triggered by Nintendo having to "change things".


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## PerfectB (Feb 22, 2020)

DS1 said:


> The scenes in Persona 5 are jokes, like, "lol, look at the uncomfortable situation that this straight dude is put in!" The audience is meant to feel like it's gross for the central characters. It 'feels' super out of place in a series that ended up being popular among people with more 'progressive' attitudes towards sexuality, but again, it's difficult to know whether that's a cultural difference or just lazy writing.
> 
> The dungeon in Persona 4 was a manifestation one character's internalized homophobia. It makes sense that it is a bunch of stereotypes, because you're looking into the psyche of someone who IS made uncomfortable by those things. Some people could have mistaken it for humor, but it was really trying to be sympathetic to an otherwise goofy character (he was supposed to be a caricature of hypermasculinity).
> 
> There are some people that DID have a problem with the latter, but for different reasons, and they are definitely in the minority.



I'll admit that I haven't gotten around to playing P5 yet.  I own it, but mostly because I found the steelbook edition for a pretty low price and went ahead and picked it up.  So, I'm taking everybody at their word that the scenes in P5 don't add anything beyond a joke at the expense of these characters.  It doesn't change my above opinion, but since I don't have the further context I'll trust people who seem to have played the game.

I have played far enough in P4:G on PSVita to know the scene that's being referenced.  With the context, I came to a similar interpretation as you.  There is an overtly masculine character, the interactions with him prior definitely hint at his sexuality, and he's really the stereotype of "overcompensating".  Of course, when you glimpse into his psyche, I didn't really take it as humor (though it is a bit uncomfortable -- but in this case it seems like an intentional design choice).  Since he is overcompensating so heavily externally because of his internal conflicts, it would stand to reason that his internal monologue is equally uncontrollable.  If you play through to that point in full, the ridiculousness actually has a net positive impact on your view of that character; he was lashing out because he couldn't reconcile his own difficult emotions.

In a vacuum though, you could cherry-pick scenes from that part of the game with no context and it would look like a rather backwards portrayal like the P5 scenes do.  There's certainly a good chunk of material in that section that if anybody passed by you playing it they'd have a number of questions.  One of the things that I personally find confusing about the material presented here in P5 is that P4 did contain similar stereotypes, on the surface -- but in reality there was a broader narrative and it _was_ somewhat progressive in demonstrating a person struggling with those complex emotions


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## FAST6191 (Feb 22, 2020)

Viri said:


> This thread just proves to me that Nintendo has a point in not wanting to bring Mother 3 to the west. Half of you will get triggered by x y z scene, the other half will get triggered by Nintendo having to "change things".


If you change things to cater to the perpetually offended you pretty much never stop (indeed look at this scene -- it is banal as it gets really yet apparently someone decided to take offence anyway) so it tends to be best to oppose such things on principle. Likewise once you let the censors in then they are there forever more always trying to expand their reach.

Also what in Mother 3 would be so contentious as to see a "similar" situation arise?


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## Viri (Feb 22, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> If you change things to cater to the perpetually offended you pretty much never stop (indeed look at this scene -- it is banal as it gets really yet apparently someone decided to take offence anyway) so it tends to be best to oppose such things on principle. Likewise once you let the censors in then they are there forever more always trying to expand their reach.


Yeah, I know that already. I actually said that earlier.



FAST6191 said:


> Also what in Mother 3 would be so contentious as to see a "similar" situation arise?


MAGYPSIES ARE AN OLD DATED GENDER STEREOTYPE, AND MUST BE CHANGED! OR WE'LL HOUND ON HOW NINTENDO IS ANTI-LGBT!


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## eriol33 (Feb 22, 2020)

In Japan, yaoi fandom is popular among girls, but it's a girl's fantasy and has done nothing to empower LGBT community.


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## Lucifer666 (Feb 22, 2020)

jfc why are people crying about how this is censorship and the death of video games. they altered a few completely unimportant lines because they are hateful and/or misrepresentative of a minority, why does this bother you so much

it's also not censorship because it's not like the government is banning them from saying this shit, it's just a company making a decision about its own game's localisation to avoid what they think will cost them sales. this is really no big deal whatsoever at worst, and a good change at best.


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## Viri (Feb 22, 2020)

Lucifer666 said:


> jfc why are people crying about how this is censorship and the death of video games. they altered a few completely unimportant lines because they are hateful and/or misrepresentative of a minority, why does this bother you so much


Most don't care about the scenes them selves being altered, they care more about the fact that Atlus is listening to the demands of Twitter, "game journalist", and Resetera. Also the fact they believe the west cannot handle scenes like this, without freaking out. Give them an inch, they'll make you censor the whole game.


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## FGFlann (Feb 22, 2020)

It is a misconception that governments are the sole purveyors of censorship. The practice is employable all the way down to the individual level where one adjusts their own speech or behaviours for the benefit of others. It's as simple as being polite against the urge to speak your mind.


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## Viri (Feb 22, 2020)

The same people praising Atlus, are also accusing Nintendo of white washing, and changing a character to more appeal to Japanese viewers.

Who cares? She's just a minor character inside of a 1000+ episode anime!? Plus, I like the new change, she looks a lot better now.
https://kotaku.com/pokemon-anime-accused-of-whitewashing-1841805403


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## LoggerMan (Feb 22, 2020)

The scenes were pretty bad. While encouraging they even put gay characters in the game, you have to wonder what life is like in Japan for gay people if Atlus felt it was totally cool to have them be only Mr Garrison style stereotypes. People like that do exist, more power to them, but not all gay people are like that, just like how not all straight guys are like Donald Trump or Joey from Friends.


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## Deleted User (Feb 22, 2020)

Viri said:


> The same people praising Atlus, are also accusing Nintendo of white washing, and changing a character to more appeal to Japanese viewers.
> 
> Who cares? She's just a minor character inside of a 1000+ episode anime!? Plus, I like the new change, she looks a lot better now.
> https://kotaku.com/pokemon-anime-accused-of-whitewashing-1841805403



I'm sorry, but that's an evident case of false equivalence.
Removing a scene due to the potential harm it may cause to a specific group (and I emphasize "may" so I don't get called an sjw) is entirely different from quite literally changing a character's skin tone for no reason whastoever. 
In the end, I truly believe that the change in the Persona 5 rerelease is for the better.

I'd agree with the "oversensitivity" argument if it were not for the fact that the depiction of the LGBT community in said game is pretty much limited to these two scenes, clearly making it seem like their sole purpose in the game was so players could joke at their expense.


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## Viri (Feb 22, 2020)

SpaceFunction said:


> quite literally changing a character's skin tone for no reason whastoever


She wasn't even that tan in game. She must have stopped going outside for a while, or bought some skin lightening creams, to not look like a rice farmer. Also, I doubt it was for no reason, I'm sure the Pokemon company had a reason. Maybe Japan just prefers their waifus to be light skinned. Personally, I think she looks a lot better in the anime.


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## FGFlann (Feb 22, 2020)

The claim of white washing Bea is nonsense, but it doesn't belong in this topic anyway. Better to argue the point than to descend into whataboutism.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 22, 2020)

LoggerMan said:


> The scenes were pretty bad. While encouraging they even put gay characters in the game, you have to wonder what life is like in Japan for gay people if Atlus felt it was totally cool to have them be only Mr Garrison style stereotypes. People like that do exist, more power to them, but not all gay people are like that, just like how not all straight guys are like Donald Trump or Joey from Friends.


Does the final sentence not contradict the first?

If it is a real thing that exists in the world then why it can't it, or shouldn't it as the case may be, be represented in a game nominally set in the world and even arguably within context of the game (for the second video the next scene seems to be seeing others get hit on rather awkwardly)?


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## Lucifer666 (Feb 23, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> It is a misconception that governments are the sole purveyors of censorship... It's as simple as being polite against the urge to speak your mind.



So... thinking before you speak and trying to be a decent human being is censorship? I think that's a little extreme.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

Lucifer666 said:


> So... thinking before you speak and trying to be a decent human being is censorship? I think that's a little extreme.


Luckily that's just the way you think of censorship. Like all practices it has degrees of severity depending on how it's used. When it becomes a problem for most people is when it infringes upon liberty.


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## Lucifer666 (Feb 23, 2020)

Viri said:


> Most don't care about the scenes them selves being altered, they care more about the fact that Atlus is listening to the demands of Twitter, "game journalist", and Resetera.



That doesn't make sense. You associate the scenes being altered with listening to the demands of Twitter, "game journalist", and Resetera, which they care about, so they _*do*_ care about the scenes being altered. That's like saying "I don't care if you pour some oil in my apartment and toss a lit match into it, just don't start a fire"



Viri said:


> Give them an inch, they'll make you censor the whole game.


 No they won't


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## The Catboy (Feb 23, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> Luckily that's just the way you think of censorship. Like all practices it has degrees of severity depending on how it's used. When it becomes a problem for most people is when it infringes upon liberty.


This so melodramatic and such an extreme reaction. This isn't like they were forced to make this change or that the change even made a difference to the game. They revised a homophobic scene and that's literally all they did, there's nothing deeper to this,


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> This so melodramatic and such an extreme reaction. This isn't like they were forced to make this change or that the change even made a difference to the game. They revised a homophobic scene and that's literally all they did, there's nothing deeper to this,


I'm not commenting on the change to the game, it doesn't matter to me. I'm talking about the nature of censorship since it became relevant to the conversation.


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## The Catboy (Feb 23, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> I'm not commenting on the change to the game, it doesn't matter to me. I'm talking about the nature of censorship since it became relevant to the conversation.


Expect you are still being melodramatic about this topic as you are acting like this is some massive issue when it's really not. A company making a choice to alter parts of their game is nothing new. That being said, why is it a problem to remove a scene that had nothing to do with the story? This isn't actual censorship, they altered a scene for a rerelease of the game, that's pretty common practice in the entertainment industry. The choice to remove this scene does not affect the game whatsoever and it's still available in the original release of the game.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Expect you are still being melodramatic about this topic as you are acting like this is some massive issue when it's really not. A company making a choice to alter parts of their game is nothing new. That being said, why is it censorship to remove a scene that had nothing to do with the story? The choice to remove this scene does not affect the game whatsoever and it's still available in the original release of the game.


I think you have fundamentally misunderstood my intent, somehow. There is no melodrama to be had because I am not addressing the topic of the change and whether or not it is good or bad. I am explaining the concept of censorship and why it isn't necessarily tied to government action.


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## The Catboy (Feb 23, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> I think you have fundamentally misunderstood my intent, somehow. There is no melodrama to be had because I am not addressing the topic of the change and whether or not it is good or bad. I am explaining the concept of censorship and why it isn't necessarily tied to government action.





FGFlann said:


> It is a misconception that governments are the sole purveyors of censorship. The practice is employable all the way down to the individual level where one adjusts their own speech or behaviours for the benefit of others. It's as simple as being polite against the urge to speak your mind.


Ah, I see now. That being said, I don't see how it's censorship to try and be a decent person and learn to be sensitive towards others.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Ah, I see now. That being said, I don't see how it's censorship to try and be a decent person and learn to be sensitive towards others.


It's commonly referred to as self-censorship. As I said, there are varying degrees of severity and people tend to take it as affront when it infringes upon liberty. General politeness is common and we all practice it every day. Censorship is not good or bad in that respect, it's important to social cohesion because we are not always rational, unfortunately.


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## The Catboy (Feb 23, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> It's commonly referred to as self-censorship. As I said, there are varying degrees of severity and people tend to take it as affront when it infringes upon liberty. General politeness is common and we all practice it every day. Censorship is not good or bad in that respect, it's important to social cohesion because we are not always rational, unfortunately.


I can see where censorship like something like 4Kids level being an actual concern here and I would agree that there are points when something can go too far and become an issue. My bad for budding in, I am still on the actual topic of Persona 5 Royal and not whatever you two had going on.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I can see where censorship like something like 4Kids level being an actual concern here and I would agree that there are points when something can go too far and become an issue. My bad for budding in, I am still on the actual topic of Persona 5 Royal and not whatever you two had going on.


No harm done. I'm just here to talk. I don't mind explaining myself as long we are... polite.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> They revised a homophobic scene and that's literally all they did, there's nothing deeper to this,


Were the scenes in question homophobic? If so then how is that? As a general surface reading none of it was "ew look at those filthy fucking gays", "urgh that fudge packing lifestyle is just wrong on all the levels" or anything of that nature, and even then I would wonder if there was a greater context.

If there is then nothing wrong and they in turn bent the knee to people looking to be offended at whatever they can then that would be wrong from where I sit.


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## The Catboy (Feb 23, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Were the scenes in question homophobic? If so then how is that? As a general surface reading none of it was "ew look at those filthy fucking gays", "urgh that fudge packing lifestyle is just wrong on all the levels" or anything of that nature, and even then I would wonder if there was a greater context.
> 
> If there is then nothing wrong and they in turn bent the knee to people looking to be offended at whatever they can then that would be wrong from where I sit.


The implication that gay men are sexual predators is based on a homophobic stereotype of gay men. This isn't to be said that gay men can't be predictors but the scene itself also goes the extra mile to make them overly flamboyant on top of being sexual predators. Even within context, the scene is using homophobic stereotypes about gay men.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The implication that gay men are sexual predators is based on a homophobic stereotype of gay men. This isn't to be said that gay men can't be predictors but the scene itself also goes the extra mile to make them overly flamboyant on top of being sexual predators. Even within context, the scene is using homophobic stereotypes about gay men.


From where I sit that is reaching so hard it might be better served in a type of rather specialist gay porn video.
Are they predators, or exhibiting predatory behaviour as the case may be, or was that just aggressive move making? Moreover does the beach thing not contrast rather nicely with the scenes around it wherein some people are travelling in a pack putting the moves on some people who generally appear less than receptive?
Was that overly flamboyant/camp? That kind of behaviour in some of the gay people I have met in life would have me wondering if they were depressed as it is so muted. Plenty of others don't go there and some would consider that level to be an aspirational one for them but otherwise find themselves playing it down.
Is it a homophobic stereotype employed in this or just a stereotype? How do I tell them apart?

In many of these sorts of scenarios I get the impression that the end goal for people screeching at makers of works like this is that the gays (or insert whatever other group manages to win a spot on the unfairly maligned at some point in history list) need appear like any normal man on the street, with some going one more and wanting them to have no flaws/weaknesses/adversities to overcome and that just makes for awful characters.


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## The Catboy (Feb 23, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> From where I sit that is reaching so hard it might be better served in a type of rather specialist gay porn video.
> Are they predators, or exhibiting predatory behaviour as the case may be, or was that just aggressive move making? Moreover does the beach thing not contrast rather nicely with the scenes around it wherein some people are travelling in a pack putting the moves on some people who generally appear less than receptive?
> Was that overly flamboyant/camp? That kind of behaviour in some of the gay people I have met in life would have me wondering if they were depressed as it is so muted. Plenty of others don't go there and some would consider that level to be an aspirational one for them but otherwise find themselves playing it down.
> Is it a homophobic stereotype employed in this or just a stereotype? How do I tell them apart?
> ...


Using commonly used stereotypes about gay men is homophobic. Even if you want to argue that maybe they were just being aggressively forward, it was still unwelcome and became predatory when they literally yelled "get em!" implying that they were going to chase these two to strip them. There is a fine line here but it's crossed when it becomes apparent that the other party isn't welcoming your advances and leaves. Once you go past that into the territory of continuing to advance on them or chasing them, that becomes predatory. 
It's not an issue of them being overly flamboyant but it's in conjunction with them being rapey as well. It plays into the stereotype that gay men (especially overly flamboyant gay men) are rapey and always make unwelcome advances. In this case, being flamboyant was used in the same practice as homophobic stereotyping in the past.
Honestly, why would that be an issue? Why not just make an average Joe who happens to be gay? They can have flaws, but that flaw doesn't always have to be rapey.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

I'm willing to concede that Beefy Trendsetter and Scruffy Romantic appear a bit rapey. The beach scene isn't even the prime example of this as the previous encounter where they drag Ryuji off for a night on the town is worse. It is played for laughs however and Ryuji remains unmolested after both encounters. Their actions also aren't severe enough to play into Persona 5's overall theme of adults abusing their power.

The problem comes when we make the leap in logic to homophobia, because ultimately the jokes are made at Ryuji's expense, to punish him for his misdeeds, and not as a critical portrayal of Beefy Trendsetter and Scruffy Romantic.

We as the player don't know these characters, and we are given no indication that their behaviour is typical of any identity group outside of the common stereotypical mannerisms. If we make no assumptions about their intent, and we observe that there are no negative consequences to their flamboyance and flirting, we can draw the conclusion that they are actually harmless and just looking to have fun. Ryuji's reactions to them are over the top but he doesn't actually display any signs of trauma from either encounter, nor does he mistreat Beefy Trendsetter and Scruffy Romantic in any manner.

The intent of the scene is to punish Ryuji and Joker for their behaviour on the beach, lavishing their own unwanted attention on girls who have no interest in being approached by them. We recognize this as karma and that is the punchline. The nature of homosexuality itself is never addressed and in this case is only inferred by aggrieved parties.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Feb 23, 2020)

There is a difference between making a whole mode around how cruel Russians are (see Company of Heroes 2) and a random NPC that's meant as a light-hearted joke. It's totally fine to complain but this "phobic" nonsense is really annoying. 
RT has also established "Russophobic" and let me introduce two more: depicting a woman who goes after rich men is now "femophobic" and men going after young women is "male-o-phobic".


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## FAST6191 (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Using commonly used stereotypes about gay men is homophobic. Even if you want to argue that maybe they were just being aggressively forward, it was still unwelcome and became predatory when they literally yelled "get em!" implying that they were going to chase these two to strip them. There is a fine line here but it's crossed when it becomes apparent that the other party isn't welcoming your advances and leaves. Once you go past that into the territory of continuing to advance on them or chasing them, that becomes predatory.
> It's not an issue of them being overly flamboyant but it's in conjunction with them being rapey as well. It plays into the stereotype that gay men (especially overly flamboyant gay men) are rapey and always make unwelcome advances. In this case, being flamboyant was used in the same practice as homophobic stereotyping in the past.
> Honestly, why would that be an issue? Why not just make an average Joe who happens to be gay? They can have flaws, but that flaw doesn't always have to be rapey.



Is a stereotype not inherently common? Though I suppose it could have fallen out of favour... does that mean the 40s stereotypes are available for use? That said I can't get to using a stereotype is of itself an act of prejudiced or discrimination, or is that just something that applies to the gays and a few other anointed groups?
This predatory line still seems hazy to me, or at least a whole lot of things would fall under that when others tell me playing hard to get/being pursued is something they care to experience.
Even if I accept the rapey premise (I really don't) so a stereotype exists... once one has been coined is it then to be verboten.

You can make an average Joe who likes to touch penis if you want, my issue was that as things get stripped away by those inclined to screech about things that is all you are going to end up with and that is boring. It is the same end result as the tokenism, just from the other direction. Generally if a character has a trait in a story it ought to mean something lest it be extraneous fluff and ignored.


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## The Catboy (Feb 23, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Is a stereotype not inherently common? Though I suppose it could have fallen out of favour... does that mean the 40s stereotypes are available for use? That said I can't get to using a stereotype is of itself an act of prejudiced or discrimination, or is that just something that applies to the gays and a few other anointed groups?
> This predatory line still seems hazy to me, or at least a whole lot of things would fall under that when others tell me playing hard to get/being pursued is something they care to experience.
> Even if I accept the rapey premise (I really don't) so a stereotype exists... once one has been coined is it then to be verboten.
> 
> You can make an average Joe who likes to touch penis if you want, my issue was that as things get stripped away by those inclined to screech about things that is all you are going to end up with and that is boring. It is the same end result as the tokenism, just from the other direction. Generally if a character has a trait in a story it ought to mean something lest it be extraneous fluff and ignored.


The stereotype that gay men (or really the LGBT+ as a whole) are predatory is still a very commonly used stereotype and trope in media and often commonly brought up by anti-LGBT+ people. There are several fake movements that came out of 4Chan like "clovergender" and "pedosexual" that were literally made around the idea that LGBT+ people were pedophiles and predators. Stereotypes are often used as justification for acts of prejudice or are based on prejudice at their core and doesn't just apply to one group of people. 
I am not going to continue with you because it seems you are just going to be deliberately obtuse.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 23, 2020)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The stereotype that gay men (or really the LGBT+ as a whole) are predatory is still a very commonly used stereotype and trope in media and often commonly brought up by anti-LGBT+ people. There are several fake movements that came out of 4Chan like "clovergender" and "pedosexual" that were literally made around the idea that LGBT+ people were pedophiles and predators. Stereotypes are often used as justification for acts of prejudice or are based on prejudice at their core and doesn't just apply to one group of people.
> I am not going to continue with you because it seems you are just going to be deliberately obtuse.


I do try to argue in good faith and I am genuinely still puzzled, or at least lack logic by which I can +1 a "ban this sick filth" for these scenes.
Because a stereotype was used means it gets banned seems just as utterly devoid of sense as... if 4chan are your boogeymen as opposed to just trolls then the OK hand symbol thing they had a hand in a while back. Don't give your enemies any power if you can help it and all that.

Not that I see how this is particularly degrading, inaccurate, malice driven or otherwise to warrant a change, hard though it may be for me to normally OK them. Now if you say it is all of the gay alphabet soup crowd I am off to find some predatory lesbian or actually some predatory asexual stories.


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## KingVamp (Feb 23, 2020)

I just wonder if they would have changed this scene, if it was literally the same thing, but instead they were running away form girls.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

KingVamp said:


> I just wonder if they would have changed this scene, if it was literally the same thing, but instead they were running away form girls.


In order for the joke to function the duo has to be undesirable to the main characters. A pair of normal girls isn't going to cut it because it plays directly into Ryuji's desires and personality. There has to be something about them that repulses or scares him, and in all likelihood that character trait would generate a similar reaction in people who consider it a protected characteristic.


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## KingVamp (Feb 23, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> In order for the joke to function the duo has to be undesirable to the main characters. A pair of normal girls isn't going to cut it because it plays directly into Ryuji's desires and personality. There has to be something about them that repulses or scares him, and in all likelihood that character trait would generate a similar reaction in people who consider it a protected characteristic.


Of course I wasn't talking about normal girls. Unless you think stalkish girls are normal. lol


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

KingVamp said:


> Of course I wasn't talking about normal girls. Unless you think stalkish girls are normal. lol


Yeah I get the idea.  But say if it was a pair of fat girls you're going to get the fat acceptance movement upset, so it's entirely possible. Maybe you could get away with a couple of nice yandere girls, I don't think anyone will go to bat for them.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 23, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> Yeah I get the idea.  But say if it was a pair of fat girls you're going to get the fat acceptance movement upset, so it's entirely possible. Maybe you could get away with a couple of nice yandere girls, I don't think anyone will go to bat for them.


You mean not all women and perfect and loving and sweet? What a woman hating misogynist you are.
Or maybe you can't portray a woman as crazy (or hidden crazy) for fear that someone that is crazy sees it and copies it or something.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

Women are the most vindictive creatures on the planet tbh.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 23, 2020)

You are really not doing yourself any favours in this one. Is this one of those found the MGTOW moments?

The only thing you can think is all women are perfect, just that are some are more perfect than others.

That said while I have met any number of women that aspire to elevate vindictiveness to a high art form they tend to also have a modicum of social sense and thus they are not the worst.
That job belongs to 3 year olds.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

I did try to go my own way but my wife wouldn't let me.

Back on topic though, it doesn't really need saying because it's so obvious, but I will anyway: No matter what you do, you can't please everyone.


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## Seliph (Feb 23, 2020)

Surprised that people are mad about the revision of two scenes that depict harmful and reductive stereotypes of homosexual men. If anything, I'd expect people to be glad. Instead, people are slinging the word SJW around left and right and acting as if it's a personal attack on them and that this instance of censorship ruins the integrity of the game. First of all, is social justice a bad thing? Is it wrong for Atlus to change a scene so that it doesn't encourage homophobic stereotypes? Second of all, it's barely 4 minutes' worth of content, and not everyone's gonna see it anyways. It's not like your world's going to collapse because two scenes have been edited. Grow up.


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## FGFlann (Feb 23, 2020)

What I've come to realize from the slog of the so-called culture war is that many of us wouldn't agree on what the concept of "social justice" actually is.


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## Dr.Hacknik (Feb 24, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Surprised that people are mad about the revision of two scenes that depict harmful and reductive stereotypes of homosexual men. If anything, I'd expect people to be glad. Instead, people are slinging the word SJW around left and right and acting as if it's a personal attack on them and that this instance of censorship ruins the integrity of the game. First of all, is social justice a bad thing? Is it wrong for Atlus to change a scene so that it doesn't encourage homophobic stereotypes? Second of all, it's barely 4 minutes' worth of content, and not everyone's gonna see it anyways. It's not like your world's going to collapse because two scenes have been edited. Grow up.


From what I have gathered there are three types of people in this thread so far.

1. People like me, who think the scene is just cringe and we don't particular care or would rather just see it gone
2. People who wanna say it's a overly used stereotype, and very very exaggerated. Making the scenes homophobic. 
3. People who wanna slap SJW and PC around like it's a pillow. Because they believe everyone here is just a pussy ass bitch who should not get offended. 

Personally, I believe the scenes are unnecessary and just overall. They provide very little if any comedy, and overall just make you cringe no matter what side you're on. You can argue they're homophobic, but you can also argue that it's nothing to get mad over. There are by far, more worse instances out there; and not just in video games, but media as a whole. Japan is the worst when it comes to making jabs at LGBT stuff, and it shows often. At the end of the day, I would rather see garbage like this gone and not come back. It causes drama from both sides of the argument and it's tiring. 

Tldr; horrible comedy, cringe and overall distasteful. It's unnecessary to have in the game, provides to comedic benefit or benefit to the plot beyond just describing gay men with stereotypes that shouldn't be used or exaggerated.


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## FGFlann (Feb 24, 2020)

Japan isn't even close to the worst. Consider the media put out by certain other countries in that region alone.


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## Dr.Hacknik (Feb 24, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> Japan isn't even close to the worst. Consider the media put out by certain other countries in that region alone.


I mean yeah. They're not certainly the worst. There's far more that I could name off, but I don't wanna point fingers. Mostly because there's too many snowflakes here but y'know, whatever.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 24, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Surprised that people are mad about the revision of two scenes that depict harmful and reductive stereotypes of homosexual men. If anything, I'd expect people to be glad. Instead, people are slinging the word SJW around left and right and acting as if it's a personal attack on them and that this instance of censorship ruins the integrity of the game. First of all, is social justice a bad thing? Is it wrong for Atlus to change a scene so that it doesn't encourage homophobic stereotypes? Second of all, it's barely 4 minutes' worth of content, and not everyone's gonna see it anyways. It's not like your world's going to collapse because two scenes have been edited. Grow up.


I am still not convinced that there was malice or that harm is being done by these scenes (you assert it is harmful, please do tell me how) to warrant the effort, and if you invite censors into your world just once you have an awfully hard time getting them back out.

As for social justice we would probably immediately get flung into a definitions debate. As with most things there is probably some kind of merit to something in there, however there is an awful lot of absolute shit, awful logic and worse arguments floating around in there and worse for this debate is not everybody believes every aspect. It would be wrong for Atlus to kowtow to an outrage mob without good reason. People say about the amount of content and while amount can play a role that tends to be passing element vs core feature of the story when amounts properly come up. Nobody was saying the world was going to collapse or the game would be ruined -- it is called having principles and standing up for those principles. We have seen it in games for decades when people come up and if you just remove that blood, that gun, that death animation, that phrase, that story beat, that thing that might be a religious symbol and so on and so on and learned it best to tell that sort to fuck off and go make your own game if you want that sort of thing.

That said I think I have a new reasoning and for that I have a nice clip


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## Seliph (Feb 24, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> I am still not convinced that there was malice or that harm is being done by these scenes (you assert it is harmful, please do tell me how) to warrant the effort, and if you invite censors into your world just once you have an awfully hard time getting them back out.
> 
> As for social justice we would probably immediately get flung into a definitions debate. As with most things there is probably some kind of merit to something in there, however there is an awful lot of absolute shit, awful logic and worse arguments floating around in there and worse for this debate is not everybody believes every aspect. It would be wrong for Atlus to kowtow to an outrage mob without good reason. People say about the amount of content and while amount can play a role that tends to be passing element vs core feature of the story when amounts properly come up. Nobody was saying the world was going to collapse or the game would be ruined -- it is called having principles and standing up for those principles. We have seen it in games for decades when people come up and if you just remove that blood, that gun, that death animation, that phrase, that story beat, that thing that might be a religious symbol and so on and so on and learned it best to tell that sort to fuck off and go make your own game if you want that sort of thing.
> 
> That said I think I have a new reasoning and for that I have a nice clip



Regarding your first point, I agree to an extent. I doubt the original scene was created maliciously, and I doubt Atlus is homophobic, but it's still a harmful scene. It uses stereotypes for gay men (feminine body language, predatory behavior to young boys) and uses that as humor. It's the same thing as depicting black people with big lips eating fried chicken as humor. The second example is clearly offensive, why? Because it simplifies and caricatures black people, it reduces them to those traits and removes their humanity. Likewise with the gay stereotypes. It reduces gay characters to feminine predators, which is an inaccurate and harmful depiction of gay people because obviously not all gay people are like that, and making the only gay characters in the game predators is pretty homophobic to me.

Regarding your second point, what principles are you standing up to? The principle to have 2 homophobic scenes in the game? I understand that you're scared that this will lead to more censorship, but it hasn't happened and for the foreseeable future, it won't happen. You say *"We have seen it in games for decades when people come up and if you just remove that blood, that gun, that death animation, that phrase, that story beat, that thing that might be a religious symbol and so on" *but is any of that happening? No, not really. Is it blood? No. Is it a gun? No. Is it a death animation? No. Is it a phrase? Kind of, but is the phrase relevant or important to the game? Do you lose anything by not hearing the homophobic dialogue? Not really. Is it a story beat? No, this scene is entirely inconsequently and has no relevance to the story. Is it a religious symbol? No.

So I don't understand what you're worried about. Atlus is simply changing a small, inconsequential, irrelevant scene because (as I previously established) the scene is homophobic and insensitive to gay individuals. It's not like they're removing all the guns in the game, or making Ryuji gay or putting the Succubi in burkas. It's just two scenes, and they aren't even being removed, they're being edited to (hopefully) remove or depict the gay characters in a more humanizing way.


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## FGFlann (Feb 24, 2020)

To be perfectly frank, caricatures are something you will have to get to grips with. The notion that you could ever eliminate such things or prevent them from being funny is ridiculous. The entire basis of comedy is that it presents an exaggeration of observed reality. You say that they strip the humanity from actual people but that is a reflection of your own beliefs and should not be projected onto anyone else. You are essentially advocating the end of comedy as a concept by going down this route because it might have a negative impact on someone, somewhere, somehow.

I can't stress that enough. In this situation projection is a huge problem.

I refer you back to my earlier post; The scene, despite containing exaggerated stereotypes, is not observably anti-gay. It is the belief that you have that causes you to think that it will lead others to think badly about homosexuals, but in reality others observing this scene are not a reflection of your beliefs and will not make the same logical leap that two characters with a bad personality trait are reflective of an entire identity group.

At the absolute maximum, you could argue that *perhaps* Ryuji, as a character, is homophobic. Since he never does anything other than seem uncomfortable, the odds of proving that are very low.


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## PZT (Feb 24, 2020)

oh my god who the hell cares


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## FGFlann (Feb 24, 2020)

If nobody cared the topic would not exist. Divesting yourself of an opinion doesn't make you cool, either. If you can't stand up for your own principles why should anyone else?


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## Seliph (Feb 24, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> To be perfectly frank, caricatures are something you will have to get to grips with. The notion that you could ever eliminate such things or prevent them from being funny is ridiculous. The entire basis of comedy is that it presents an exaggeration of observed reality. You say that they strip the humanity from actual people but that is a reflection of your own beliefs and should not be projected onto anyone else. You are essentially advocating the end of comedy as a concept by going down this route because it might have a negative impact on someone, somewhere, somehow.
> 
> I can't stress that enough. In this situation projection is a huge problem.
> 
> ...


I never read your previous post, you make a good point that I hadn't considered. Very well said. I can't even think of a valid counter-argument to support my point.


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## FGFlann (Feb 24, 2020)

You have no idea how gratifying it is to think I may have actually convinced someone of something instead of just endless circular argument, lol. This almost never happens, I'm not sure how to react.


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## Seliph (Feb 24, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> You have no idea how gratifying it is to think I may have actually convinced someone of something instead of just endless circular argument, lol. This almost never happens, I'm not sure how to react.


It's okay I was surprised too lmao


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## banjo2 (Feb 24, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> You have no idea how gratifying it is to think I may have actually convinced someone of something instead of just endless circular argument, lol. This almost never happens, I'm not sure how to react.


It was just getting good


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Feb 25, 2020)

The fundamental question is this:

Are you for or against people - who are often not even fans of the product - having a restricting impact on the product of the creators.

For some reason Marvel movies are very big in China. A new one allegedly was supposed to have a character who looks like a TIbetan monk but the creators changed it into a completely new design due to their fear of backlash. I for one support this decision. I also like the changed Fire Temple theme in OoT and the new unlockable clothes in the European version of Fatal Frame 5. And just as a warning, I´m going to call you a sinophob, islamophob or sexist, if you disagree.


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## Deleted User (Feb 25, 2020)

Viri said:


> The same people praising Atlus, are also accusing Nintendo of white washing, and changing a character to more appeal to Japanese viewers.
> 
> Who cares? She's just a minor character inside of a 1000+ episode anime!? Plus, I like the new change, she looks a lot better now.
> https://kotaku.com/pokemon-anime-accused-of-whitewashing-1841805403


I thought Bea was Korean cos of her handshake.
Her name in each language is based on bean in that language, idk what her Japanese name has to do with anything.


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## LinkmstrYT (Feb 25, 2020)

Viri said:


> The same people praising Atlus, are also accusing Nintendo of white washing, and changing a character to more appeal to Japanese viewers.
> 
> Who cares? She's just a minor character inside of a 1000+ episode anime!? Plus, I like the new change, she looks a lot better now.
> https://kotaku.com/pokemon-anime-accused-of-whitewashing-1841805403


It's just Kotaku once again relying on bullshit and clickbaits, as usual. Actually watching the short, a lot of the "white-washing" is literally just lighting in various scenes where it's literally sunlight shining radiantly hard.


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## Seliph (Feb 26, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> For some reason Marvel movies are very big in China. A new one allegedly was supposed to have a character who looks like a TIbetan monk but the creators changed it into a completely new design due to their fear of backlash.



What's your source for this? All of the Doctor Strange characters look like Tibetan monks but they haven't been removed or changed.


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## DJPlace (Feb 26, 2020)

i just noticed something. why are people offended by this? i mean it's a video game. who the fuck cares. sure there's some censorship i'm pissed off about.... (looking at the last senran kagura game on PS4) i mean people who are offended by this are people who are true church people who follow the lord of not gayness or whatever. i find sex talk very offense like my one guy i know said something really nasty that i'm not going say and hell it's really bad for EOF.... i thought this  was not the 90's.... but has i said if there's a way for hacked PS4's to swap out the cut screen's that would be great but if not deal with it.... also i know all the MC's and friends are underage but still it's not like they get hurt/raped or anything like that.... i mean hell i recall one show in the 90's that allowed a couple of gay guys kissing and they showed it. all right i'm done if you can't read this welp.... whatever....


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Feb 26, 2020)

Seliph said:


> What's your source for this? All of the Doctor Strange characters look like Tibetan monks but they haven't been removed or changed.


It´s about an upcoming movie [Edit: correction: It is a 2016 movie]. A white middle-aged woman was cast for the role. She represents a sort of celtic Doctor Strange.


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## Seliph (Feb 26, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It´s about an upcoming movie. A white middle-aged woman was cast for the role. She represents a sort of celtic Doctor Strange.


But like

What's your source? Where did you see this?


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Feb 26, 2020)

I wasn´t aware the movie came out in 2016. The link:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-...l-s-dr-strange-over-changed-character-n677706


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## Seliph (Feb 26, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I wasn´t aware the movie came out in 2016. The link:
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-...l-s-dr-strange-over-changed-character-n677706


Oh, I've seen that. Tibetans were angry because a white woman was used to represent an asian role. Marvel didn't change anything because of this, Tilda Swinton still got to play her role unchanged.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Feb 26, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Oh, I've seen that. Tibetans were angry because a white woman was used to represent an asian role. Marvel didn't change anything because of this, Tilda Swinton still got to play her role unchanged.


Tilda Swinton WAS the change. That was the whole point.


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## Hells Malice (Feb 26, 2020)

Snowflakes strike again

I cast Censorship Blizzard!


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## Seliph (Feb 29, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Tilda Swinton WAS the change. That was the whole point.


Not sure what you mean by this. Tilda Swinton portraying the Ancient One is a change from the Ancient One being an Asian man in the comics, but she was the original actor cast for the role of Ancient One, and the fact that she was the original person cast for the role of Ancient One is why people were offended, especially because she white-washes the original Asian character. The way you phrased your original post made it sound as if Marvel was afraid of backlash so they cast Tilda Swinton instead of an Asian man? That doesn't really make sense, unless I'm misreading what you're saying.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Feb 29, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Not sure what you mean by this.


I don´t know about this character but apparently he has been depicted as a Tibetan-type monk in the comics. The writer (allegedly) said they had to change it due to the fear of a backlash by the Chinese audience who might have interpreted it as a political statement (esp. those who do not know the comics). So the original change was turning the character into a white woman.

If you are for these kinds of things, you have to be consistent and also apply it to this case. The only difference is pre-release and post-release complaints.


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