# weird sega saturn issue



## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

My sega saturn only works with 2 games of mine and the rest don't work at all. I thought it may be a laser issue, since the discs work in my PC with a saturn emulator and they work on both my friend's saturns. I bought a new Saturn laser and swapped out the old one and i get the same issue. the two games that work are Bug and Space Hulk. I have tried panzer dragoon, nights into dreams, and x-men. All are read by the saturn and the logo comes up, but after that it goes to a black screen, when i hit reset the console doesn't respond at all, whereas when i hit reset when its running the other 2 games fine, it resets like normal. Whats wrong? can anybody tell me what the problem is and if there is a fix for it? is this common?


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

That's very odd indeed. It would seem that the system detects that there's a disc, tries to load the bootloader _(shows up as a SEGA logo right after the Saturn jingle)_ and then freeze. Do the games kick you to the main GUI after a while or is the black screen there no matter what you do? You could try kickstarting the games with a swap trick _(yes, I know your copies are original, but the bootloader is acting up, so it's worth a try)_. It's relatively easy to perform one, especially on a Model 1 Saturn.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

The saturn never takes me back to the main GUI it just stays on the black screen until i turn it off. I always forget model 1 vs model 2 (mine has the round buttons) and how do i perform the swap trick? also do you have any idea why Bug and Space hulk work 100% of the time? this doesn't sound like boot loader to me


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Essentially the Saturn game disc is comprised of four main parts.

First, the system reads the Table of Contents - this is the part of the disc that tells the system what's the structure of the disc and where to look for the binary. If this part is misread, the system may not boot the game or may boot it in a glitchy fashion.
The second part it reads is the Saturn security ring. If you're not immediately thrown back to the GUI and/or the system doesn't read the game disc as a CD Audio disc, that read works fine.
Then there's the Audio Tracks, but those don't concern us during loading.
Finally there's the Data track in which you can find the binary. If it's located successfuly, the system shows you the SEGA splash screen during which game data is loaded.
As you can probably tell, your Saturn has problems locating the last part which may be caused by a faulty ToC read or a faulty binary load. This can be caused by a number of factors, usually a dirty or worn out lens, but it could also be a misaligned spindle etc.

Have you tried cleaning the laser lens? The best way to do it is to dip a q-tip in some isopropyl alcohol with no additives and gently _(gently!)_ rub the surface of the lens, then dry it off with the dry end. Be sure not to leave any lint on it! You can also use some microfibre if you're a 100% sure that it won't scratch the delicate lens.

The swap trick is relatively simple, but it requires you to open the system and disable the lid state button, so we'll leave that for last.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks I will go clean the laser right now and report back. I don't see why it would be dirty though becaude it is a BRAND NEW laser that i ordered as a replacement part thinking that my old laser was the issue


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> Thanks I will go clean the laser right now and report back. I don't see why it would be dirty though becaude it is a BRAND NEW laser that i ordered as a replacement part thinking that my old laser was the issue


It's a _"brand new"_ laser for an incredibly old system - chances are that it's been removed from another Saturn, so you never really know.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

cleaning the laser lense made no difference it still boots up space hulk fine but nights into dreams does nothing but take me to sega logo and then black screen


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

That's interesting. I assume that the same thing happens if you fully power off the console, insert the disc and power it on, yes?


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

Yes i have tried launching the games both ways before and after cleaning the laser with no luck


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Well, if you are positively sure that the discs are not damaged in any way and that the laser lens is calibrated correctly _(it is if it loads other games just fine)_, something really weird is goin' on. You have a Model 2 Saturn _(round buttons)_, so a swap trick might be more difficult for you than for Model 1 users, but nothing that you can't handle. Essentially you have to locate the open/close button of the lid - seeing that your Saturn has already been opened, you should have no problems in locating it. Tape it down with some duct tape and try out some of the swaps as presented here:



The first swap method loads a ToC from a different disc - the Data track is normally more or less at the same spot, so it might allow you to load the discs. Worst-case scenario, you can always burn fresh copies of the discs _(I mean, you own them, so why not?)_ and try booting that with any available method.

You could also try adjusting the laser using the provided POT _(there's one for strength, one for motor speed and a couple others that I can't remember the function of - you're interested in the orange one, make 1 degree turns and test, don't go any further than that, beam strength increases clockwise)_, but you have to be really careful with that not to burn out the lens - giving the laser a bit more force often times helps with reading really old discs.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

Alright time to try this and go and open it up again. well thanks for the help i will report back with if it works or not. hopefully this is only temporary and i can find a working saturn for a decent price.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> Alright time to try this and go and open it up again. well thanks for the help i will report back with if it works or not. hopefully this is only temporary and i can find a working saturn for a decent price.


This is really just a matter of finding out what the exact problem with your system is. It could be a variety of things, so it's good to narrow down. I _*think*_ some calibrating should do the trick, but it's worth to try swapping to see if it'll even be necessary.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

when i try doing the swap it goes to black screen then back to the BIOS


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> when i try doing the swap it goes to black screen then back to the BIOS


I see. Try this then - insert a game that does work and let the laser lens perform the first two reads _(the first is the ToC, the second is the security ring)_, then swap to the game to the one try to boot. If that fails, try the other game that's working.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

ok i just got it to go to the black screen without going to the bios after swapping


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

i'm now burning a copy of my nights into dreams disc in order to test out a backup copy. will let you know how that goes


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> ok i just got it to go to the black screen without going to the bios after swapping


Alrighty then... I'm really beginning to think that the problem is the disc - it must be particularily difficult to read for whatever reason. Perhaps your friend's Saturn and your PC have stronger lenses and you were unlucky enough to come across two faulty ones. Technically the problem could also be the cache, but you'd see some form of glitching and no games would work if that were the case. Saturn disc drives appear to be pretty selective with what they read over the years. You can counteract this by calibrating the laser, but you have to be careful if you don't have the necessary gear to do so.



Skip to 16:40 for a _(very obvious)_ instructions - all you might need is a tiny, tiny twist.




Clairjoe said:


> i'm now burning a copy of my nights into dreams disc in order to test out a backup copy. will let you know how that goes


Nights will require a different swap. Start with the copy inside, let the system read the ToC, swap to an original, let it read the Security Ring, then swap back to the backup _(Method 2)_.

*EDIT:* My brain derped for some reason _(it is 6AM here and I haven't slept yet...)_, the Saturn actually reads the ToC first, then the Security Ring and then it jumps to the Data track. I've adjusted my earlier responses for posterity in case someone else encounters a similar problem or just wants to find out how to swap.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

with the swap method i still get a black screen with burned and regular saturn disc


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

and i have tried this with the old laser and was told the new one was calibrated all i had to do was install it and remove the solder that joins 2 circuits in the laser which i did


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

i have been fiddling with it anyway...with no luck  does this mean this saturn has no hope? i don't come across them cheap often.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Yeah, the two points are the static shield, if you hadn't done that, the laser wouldn't turn on.

I'm pretty stumped, I have no idea what's bothering your system. Did you make that backup copy off of the disc that didn't work? Because if that's the case, this one might not work either. If you had a clean dump from a different source though, I'm out of ideas at this point.

You could try calibrating the laser anyways, just to see if it improves the situation. Remember, factory settings aren't necessarily good enough to read a battered/old disc. If it doesn't help at all, the issue is way out of my league - I did my best to help you locate it. Honestly though, my Saturn also ended up on a black screen instead of loading the game and a simple _"rinse and repeat"_ normally _"helped"_ when the system was picky - it's bizzare that the issue pops up every single time.

If nobody else manages to help you, try asking at racketboy.com, sega-16.com, assemblergames.com or atariage.com - there's plenty of modders there who might've experienced this issue as well.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

haha i have already posted on all of those websites and have yet to get a response you were the only one who even tried :/ thanks anyway. I used a copy of nights that i downloaded so not the same disc.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> haha i have already posted on all of those websites and have yet to get a response you were the only one who even tried :/ thanks anyway. I used a copy of nights that i downloaded so not the same disc.


I'll stay on the lookout for possible explainations, but the only things that cross my mind are the lens _(which is an unlikely culprit since it reads other discs and was just replaced)_ and the memory _(which would be bizzare since some games work just fine)_. I really hope that you'll get your answer, at this point I'm curious myself to be honest.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

Thank you verry much for the help even though we got nowhere. atleast we are somewhat closer to finding out what could be wrong?


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

OH! one thing i forgot to add that may or may not make a difference. some of the games boot up past the SEGA logo, but then go to black screen after the part where the companies logo shows up. nights however as i mentioned before doesn't even get this far. when booting up Panzer Dragoon the first picture showed up then it went black. i have tried burning discs of other saturn games i own and having the same result with the burned copies as the originals.


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## loco365 (Apr 15, 2014)

It could simply be that the ToC is being read improperly, perhaps a scratch is on them. A PC's laser is far more powerful, so it can read a scratched disc with a decent margin of error. A Saturn, maybe not so much. Have you tried getting a new copy of the games that don't work and try those?

I don't own a Saturn, but it's relevant enough...


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

Yes i have tried my friends copies of the games on my console and they have tried my copies on theirs my copies worked fine on his saturns and his copies didn't work at all on mine. this is another reason why i am sure it is not the disc or the laser


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

UPDATE: the saturn is now only launching the BIOs about 40% of the time. could this contribute to the issue or is my saturn just dying


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## Foxi4 (Apr 15, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> UPDATE: the saturn is now only launching the BIOs about 40% of the time. could this contribute to the issue or is my saturn just dying


Okay, that _is_ worrying. Are you sure that you haven't shorted anything when replacing the laser lens? Is the laser lens ribbon attached properly and were the connectors clean when you installed it? Is the button battery in the Saturn alive or do you have to set the date up every time you turn the system on? Are you experiencing any glitching at all in the games that do work? You should extensively test that.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 15, 2014)

I have not played the games that do work much but i will sit with them for a few hours. I am sure because nothing was wrong until 2 days after replacing the laser. and everything was clean when i did it. i replaced the battery about 4 days ago so i know it is good.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 16, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> I have not played the games that do work much but i will sit with them for a few hours. I am sure because nothing was wrong until 2 days after replacing the laser. and everything was clean when i did it. i replaced the battery about 4 days ago so i know it is good.


When the system's GUI isn't popping up, does anything else start up? Do you hear the CD spindle spinning or the lens attempting to read something? Is the power light on? If nothing starts up, it could be a damaged power button or PSU, in both cases it should be easily fixable. If you do hear other components working, there could be some foul magic at work here.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 16, 2014)

I'm starting to think of giving up on this saturn and trying to find one for cheap....but i havn't come by them for under $50 in a while...


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## Clairjoe (Apr 16, 2014)

when i turn it on the light turns green and the disc spins, not as fast as it would at first start up, but faster than it does when it slows down to read the disc. i however do not hear the laser moving when the bios doesn't start up


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## Foxi4 (Apr 16, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> when i turn it on the light turns green and the disc spins, not as fast as it would at first start up, but faster than it does when it slows down to read the disc. i however do not hear the laser moving when the bios doesn't start up


I think that you should attempt disassembling and re-assembling the lens assembly and double-checking all the ribbon connectors - I find it odd that the BIOS would stop starting all of a sudden, something might not be connected properly. There's always the slight possibility of some form of memory degradation, but your issues appear to be very..._ "random"_ in nature.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 16, 2014)

OK i will try to check both ribon cables just incase. but i was able to start it up to the BIOS without the laser assembly or any part of the disc drive installed before


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## Clairjoe (Apr 16, 2014)

its not changing anything. :/


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## Clairjoe (Apr 16, 2014)

someone else suggested it may be a faulty BIOS or Firmware.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 16, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> OK i will try to check both ribon cables just incase. but i was able to start it up to the BIOS without the laser assembly or any part of the disc drive installed before


Removing an essential part from the system messes up resistance in all sorts of ways, you generally shouldn't turn on an incomplete system unless you're sure that the circuits are isolated and won't impact the rest of the motherboard. Seeing that the issue popped up after replacing the laser, that's the first thing to check. 



Clairjoe said:


> someone else suggested it may be a faulty BIOS or Firmware.


It could be. I said earlier that the memory might've gotten corrupted, but that's a very rare case. Replacing the BIOS would require removing the original mask ROM and replacing it with a Flash ROM with a BIOS image flashed onto it. As with most older systems, the original BIOS chip is non-programmable, so you can't flash it as-is. I found this guy who sells Saturn BIOS chips at an affordable price, you could contact him if you plan on replacing it.

*EDIT: *I really suggest taking the issue to Assemblergames.com if you haven't yet - the sheer amount of hardware nerds there is staggering and they'll probably be able to help you if you haven't gotten any responses on the other sites you've asked this question on. I'm personally stumped, there's too many things that could've gotten borked for me to narrow the issue down. All I can give you is general tips:

Check the capacitors on the whole system and especially the PSU - poor power supply can cause all sorts of nonsense to happen. If they're buldging or leaking, they need to go.
Check for signs of any prior modifications done to the system by previous owners - the system's behavior is odd.
It could be a borked BIOS, so look into replacing the ROM chip if nothing else works.
It could be corrupted/borked RAM, but you'd probably see more glitching if that was the case.
It could be SH-1 being funny, in which case you're f*cked. The SH-1 chip controls the CD-ROM security measures and may kick you out of a Data track if it fails to recognize the security ring. This processor has its own embedded memory, so if that memory is corrupt, there's nothing you can do about it.


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## tbgtbg (Apr 16, 2014)

Did this Saturn ever work right or has it been acting up ever since you bought it?


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## Clairjoe (Apr 16, 2014)

I was given it by a friend and he told me it just needed a new laser. so i guess it never really worked right.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 16, 2014)

Clairjoe said:


> I was given it by a friend and he told me it just needed a new laser. so i guess it never really worked right.


I posted some suggestions above, but to really find the issue you'll probably need to do some in-depth diagnostics. The usual fixes don't work, so I guess that's it for me. Good luck, I hope you'll find the root of the problem. Worst-case scenario, you can always strip the system for replacement parts - most of the peripherals should probably work fine.


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## Clairjoe (Apr 16, 2014)

yea my idea was try to find another broken saturn for cheap and try fixing it using some working parts from this one.


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