# do you think Trump sealed his own fate?



## chrisrlink (Jun 18, 2018)

over the past few weeks if you haven't been living under a rock Trump has enforced the so called zero tolerance policy allowing border Patrol  and the US government to Prosecute illegal's not only that they are taking their children away in the process as a "deterrent" for others to cross now a Post maybe already done news wise on this subject i'm guessing so I'm taking this as opinion based with one simple question....do you think this maybe the final straw for him and maybe heated talks (secret) have begun to impeach him let alone probably charge him with human rights crimes? what do you guys and gals think have they started you think or maybe you view he should be impeached now? leave your comments below


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## Localhorst86 (Jun 18, 2018)

This post was hard to read. Please use punctuation.


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## Viri (Jun 18, 2018)

Spoiler











Jaysus, that was tough to read. Please look at the image in my spoiler. 

As for Trump, yes, I'm sure he'll be getting impeached any day for the 50th time, after he starts WW3 for the 100th time.


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## Clydefrosch (Jun 18, 2018)

You'd hope so, but knowing the US, you'll probably double down and start using the children to work your tobacco plantations and give the GOP both the house and the senate with absolute majorities...


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## chrisrlink (Jun 19, 2018)

he's insane, mind you he said "I want the people to stand up and respect me like kim jun un" doesn't that raise a red flag that he's getting too power hungry?, and maybe on the verge of (trying) to claim emergency power as to turn our great nation into totalitarian state?


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## granville (Jun 19, 2018)

So far everything has managed to slide off him like teflon, he's gotten away with a lot of things that would have sunk other people in his position. Especially in the modern era.

That said, Trump has also enjoyed a Republican majority in the senate and house during the first two years of his presidency. Plenty of Republicans grumble and roll their eyes at Trump publicly. But when it comes time to take a hard stance of either supporting or fighting him, most step into line for the sake of party unity or personal interest.

So it would be interesting to see what would happen if Trump's support in congress were to disappear. We'll know much more about Trump's possible fate this November when the midterm elections are over. I don't trust polls or the news media (left or right) to give an unbiased perspective about actual public opinion. But it should be a decent gauge when we see which party ends up with the majority in the senate and house. If Republicans maintain control, it will probably be business as usual and Trump will probably continue to slide past most if not all of his controversies unscathed. If Democrats gain control however, well we'll see.


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## chrisrlink (Jun 19, 2018)

can't believe the republicans rather change this into a dictatorship (then again part of me isn't) than to expel that fat ass hitler wanabe


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## Taleweaver (Jun 19, 2018)

thread title said:
			
		

> Do you think Trump sealed his own fate?


With that thread title, I came here thinking "with what, exactly?". The upcoming trade wars with Canada, the EU and China, the Russian interference, gross diplomatic incompetence, a North Korean treaty without content, the Stormy Daniels affair...just how many fuck-ups do you really need? 

As for the zero tolerance: he should be impeached, but that won't happen over this. Remember: he got elected by people who wanted a wall between the USA and Mexico. You really think they're going to care that children are being separated from their parents or held in a cage?
...okay, maybe a few do. And if Trump doesn't do anything, it might even lead to his demise. But he isn't THAT dumb. All he has to do is a bit of fearmongering, and he doesn't even needs facts to do that. I mean...the guy already tweeted that the way Germany handled open borders led to massive crimes*, and I'm sure that he'll keep reacting with similar bullshit for as long as is needed to shut everyone up who disagrees.



*in reality, the crime rate in Germany is actually at the lowest point since 1992.


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## The Catboy (Jun 19, 2018)

Trump has proven that no matter how horrible he is as a person and the president, they ain't gonna touch him. A jellyfish has more backbone than the Republicans in Congress and the Democrats don't have the numbers. It's an unbalanced system that is heavily leaning in his favor. He could double down and the Republicans still won't do anything to stop him.


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## GhostLatte (Jun 19, 2018)

The parallel between Trump and Hitler is even closer now. These detention centers are a clear human rights violation.


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## chrisrlink (Jun 19, 2018)

i agree with you Ghost it reeks of a Holocaust repeat except no mass genocide it's sad our government is making a big mistake I agree illegal immigration is an issue but ripping away kids from parents is just inhumane even to deture illegals from crossing doing that  still isn't right


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## wimkaay (Jun 19, 2018)

I live in Europe and I can understand Trumps argument about Europe. the past 50 years huge groups of migrants moved to Europe (mostly muslims). There is a serious intergration problem, and most immigrants are basically forced to crime to survive. I think we must recognize that also rich western countries cannot take all immigrants. It is financial and social too difficult


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## Xzi (Jun 19, 2018)

There is no final straw.  It wasn't long ago that much of Trump's base gladly voted for a confirmed pedophile.  I believe there is a self-identified neo-nazi as well as another pedo running as Republicans for the mid-terms right now.  The party has sold out on all its morals and principles just to worship the orange calf.  I wouldn't be surprised to find out many of them are happy about child internment camps, either.  The fact that they're Mexican children means they don't even register as human for too many of these degenerates.


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## chrisrlink (Jun 19, 2018)

yeah and Now Trump decided to pull out of the human rights counsel 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_medium=social 

I have a bad feeling bout this worst case scenario he'll order executions of Mexicans Muslims and Political Rivals/people who don't agree with him


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## Xzi (Jun 19, 2018)

chrisrlink said:


> yeah and Now Trump decided to pull out of the human rights counsel
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-19/trump-is-said-ready-to-pull-u-s-from-un-s-human-rights-council?utm_source=twitter&utm_content=tictoc&cmpid==socialflow-twitter-tictoc&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_medium=social
> 
> I have a bad feeling bout this worst case scenario he'll order executions of Mexicans Muslims and Political Rivals/people who don't agree with him


Yeah I saw that.  This move pretty much confirms that we've regressed into a Banana Republic as a nation.  "If you're coming to America don't expect your human rights to be enforced."  We're so far beyond self-satire at this point that nobody would be shocked if Trump enacted the Purge.


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## GhostLatte (Jun 19, 2018)

I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the administration moves onto more drastic measures to care ofthe issue, like what the Nazis did.


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## Hanafuda (Jun 19, 2018)

What's wrong with separating children from parents when the parents are criminals? Do other people who commit crimes get to take their children to prison with them?


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## GhostLatte (Jun 19, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> What's wrong with separating children from parents when the parents are criminals? Do other people who commit crimes get to take their children to prison with them?


Doesn't matter whether they are criminals are not. These are kids we are talking about, some really young. You have to be heartless to not see what is wrong here. What about if your children were taken away from you? How would you feel then?


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## GreatCrippler (Jun 19, 2018)

A post like this is a powder keg of pointless. Anti-Trumpers will be screaming for impeaching the orange devil, and conservatives with will stand up for anything he does. Trump is not the Devil, nor Hitler, nor is he going to destroy America. He's a cruddy weirdo at best, and an ego maniac regardless. That said, this poor BS bandwagon of "What about the Children?" Please. If you're not on a train to Texas with helping some kids reunite with their parents, then you're just spouting pointless nonsense.


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## GhostLatte (Jun 19, 2018)

GreatCrippler said:


> A post like this is a powder keg of pointless. Anti-Trumpers will be screaming for impeaching the orange devil, and conservatives with will stand up for anything he does. Trump is not the Devil, nor Hitler, nor is he going to destroy America. He's a cruddy weirdo at best, and an ego maniac regardless. That said, this poor BS bandwagon of "What about the Children?" Please. If you're not on a train to Texas with helping some kids reunite with their parents, then you're just spouting pointless nonsense.


He's done a pretty good job at destroying the country so far though.


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## jefffisher (Jun 19, 2018)

most people are against illegal immigrants including legal mexicans, one of my friends parents got deported because of obama so far trump hasn't affected me or any of my immigrant friends in any way.


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## GreatCrippler (Jun 19, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> He's done a pretty good job at destroying the country so far though.



The economy is good, and most people are not worse off than they were 5 years ago. Being a loud college kid echoing ideals is all well and good, but the simple truth is that things are not bad in this country. As a whole America is doing well. Human rights concerns are terrible, and need attention, but to blame Trump for it all is silly. The man is loud, and irritating. A racist bent on tearing apart the country and families? Doubtful.


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 19, 2018)

What Trump says can't be taken as a fact that will _actually_ happen. In fact, he tends to say a lot of things people love to hear but putting them to use? That's another story.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 19, 2018)

People who compare Trump to Hilter never read a book on the guy a day in their life. Holy shit gg guys gg


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## GhostLatte (Jun 20, 2018)

CallmeBerto said:


> People who compare Trump to Hilter never read a book on the guy a day in their life. Holy shit gg guys gg


At least Hitler had a brain in his skull. He also knew when to kill himself.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 20, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> At least Hitler had a brain in his skull. He also knew when to kill himself.



Trump kicked ass and took names in the market for decades. That is not something the average joe could ever dream of doing.


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## pustal (Jun 20, 2018)

jefffisher said:


> most people are against illegal immigrants including legal mexicans, one of my friends parents got deported because of obama so far trump hasn't affected me or any of my immigrant friends in any way.



It has, even if indirectly. Since the beggining of Trumps campaing that his people have been working in dehumanizing immigrants, particularly mexican. This week it went as far as Huckabee Sanders calling asylum seekers criminals and propaganda is working to try to make people numb to the children crying. Your friends already have a big growing group of people in the US that feel they are less than a citizen, and these people have been incresingly being validated, either by the president, his suporters and the media who carries his propaganda, either being Fox News, Sinclair, Breitbart and friends, or social media bubbles.



CallmeBerto said:


> People who compare Trump to Hilter never read a book on the guy a day in their life. Holy shit gg guys gg



They are different people and Trump right now is more like a pawn to Sessions and friends, but he is starting to build is path to be remembered in the wrong side of history. The way these migrant concentration camps are arising and being used, while sepparating famillies  are chillingly analogous to the japanese american internment camps. It shouldn't go that far, but may well go further than this.

Also, do note that the way this is being done, the children suffering is not a collateral but the whole point, to make them a warning sign to further migrants or azylum seekers to cease their atempts. Children suffering is being used as a political weapon. No matter how you feel about migration policies, that is just plain cruel and wrong.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 20, 2018)

I caught a absolute b******* on the left having the moral High Ground here. They had eight years to fix this and they spin their wheels.


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## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> What's wrong with separating children from parents when the parents are criminals? Do other people who commit crimes get to take their children to prison with them?


Usually the parents are deported and the children are held up in US custody over lengthy legal proceedings.  Then they have no idea how to reunite the families afterward.  Regardless, the end result is concentration camps for children.  That's an all time low for the US or pretty much any country.



CallmeBerto said:


> I caught a absolute b******* on the left having the moral High Ground here. They had eight years to fix this and they spin their wheels.


Fix what?  This is a Trump-era policy.  Obama did not separate families that were deported.  I call BS on the constant deflection whenever this administration does something morally reprehensible.


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## jeff2242 (Jun 20, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> He's done a pretty good job at destroying the country so far though.


A page full of under educated libtards


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## pustal (Jun 20, 2018)

CallmeBerto said:


> I caught a absolute b******* on the left having the moral High Ground here. They had eight years to fix this and they spin their wheels.



Fix what? What are you talking about?


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## deinonychus71 (Jun 20, 2018)

GreatCrippler said:


> The economy is good, and most people are not worse off than they were 5 years ago. Being a loud college kid echoing ideals is all well and good, but the simple truth is that things are not bad in this country. As a whole America is doing well. Human rights concerns are terrible, and need attention, but to blame Trump for it all is silly. The man is loud, and irritating. A racist bent on tearing apart the country and families? Doubtful.



Thank you, we need more voices in the middle.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 20, 2018)

The immigration process is been a shitshow forever

@Xzi @pustal 

Many here including myself have been wanting this entire process streamlined since forever.


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## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

GreatCrippler said:


> The economy is good, and most people are not worse off than they were 5 years ago.


So that's an excuse for absolutely anything?  Just more deflection.  And FYI Trump's international trade war has wiped out pretty much all gains for 2018.  If he keeps pushing it the economy will 100% crash in 2019.



CallmeBerto said:


> Many here including myself have been wanting this entire process streamlined since forever.


This is not a "streamlining" of the process.  It's using bureaucracy as an intentionally malicious tool to slow down the process if anything.  You should expect the leaders you support to find a solution to the problem, not pass the buck to the opposing party.  Especially since Republicans have been the ones stonewalling immigration reform for years.  Also: a wall is not the same as effective policy reform.


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## pustal (Jun 20, 2018)

CallmeBerto said:


> The immigration process is been a shitshow forever
> 
> @Xzi @pustal
> 
> Many here including myself have been wanting this entire process streamlined since forever.



Again, whatever you think of immigration policy does not justify separating children from their parents and putting them in concentration camps. If you think otherwise, I'm sorry but something is wrong with you.


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## xpoverzion (Jun 20, 2018)

chrisrlink said:


> over the past few weeks if you haven't been living under a rock Trump has enforced the so called zero tolerance policy allowing border Patrol  and the US government to Prosecute illegal's not only that they are taking their children away in the process as a "deterrent" for others to cross now a Post maybe already done news wise on this subject i'm guessing so I'm taking this as opinion based with one simple question....do you think this maybe the final straw for him and maybe heated talks (secret) have begun to impeach him let alone probably charge him with human rights crimes? what do you guys and gals think have they started you think or maybe you view he should be impeached now? leave your comments below


Trump will stay in office, and will get a second term if Israel wants him there.  Trump will get impeached, or lose his second term if Israel wants that for him.  It's not in the hands of Americans.  It's in the hands of Israel's diaspora and whatever she want's for the better good of Israel.  The sooner you understand this, the sooner you understand how, and why the world and history works the way it does.


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## Thunder Hawk (Jun 20, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> Trump will stay in office, and will get a second term if Israel wants him there.  Trump will get impeached, or lose his second term if Israel wants that for him.  It's not in the hands of Americans.  It's in the hands of Israel's diaspora and whatever she want's for the better good of Israel.  The sooner you understand this, the sooner you understand how, and why the world and history works the way it does.


Israel > United States 
Nice meme.


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## nando (Jun 20, 2018)

Viri said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...




the ellipsis description is wrong…


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## the_randomizer (Jun 20, 2018)

Illegal immigration is an issue, yes, punishing children is not the way to go about it, no, not at all. Either have the entire families sent back, grant them asylum, or don't separate them at all. But the cucks a Capitol Hill are doing nothing
to solve immigration, so yeah, both parties are being cucks about it.



Thunder Hawk said:


> Israel > United States
> Nice meme.



I've got an even better meme 

Israel > Palestine


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## pustal (Jun 20, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> Trump will stay in office, and will get a second term if Israel wants him there.  Trump will get impeached, or lose his second term if Israel wants that for him.  It's not in the hands of Americans.  It's in the hands of Israel's diaspora and whatever she want's for the better good of Israel.  The sooner you understand this, the sooner you understand how, and why the world and history works the way it does.



Why and would how Israel have that kind of power? I'd agree they have a great deal of political power in the US, yes, but it goes as far as maintaining support, and this is because in return Israel stands for the US in the region otherwise with little sympathy for the US, with exception perhaps of Jordan that tries to be more neutral.


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## Cylent1 (Jun 20, 2018)

Obama did the same thing!  It is not Obama or trumps doings, it is congress and all the political partisan keeping from changing the laws.
Why you snowflakes keep sitting their just hoping that this is true, under the context, you are wrong altogether.
Remember, 1+1=2 not 4!


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## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Obama did the same thing!


False.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/



> Immigration experts we spoke to said Obama-era policies did lead to some family separations, but only relatively rarely, and nowhere near the rate of the Trump administration. (A Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman said the Obama administration did not count the number of families separated at the border.)
> 
> "Obama generally refrained from prosecution in cases involving adults who crossed the border with their kids," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law. *"In contrast, the current administration has chosen to prosecute adult border-crossers, even when they have kids. That's a choice — one fundamentally different from the choice made by both Obama and previous presidents of both parties."*
> 
> ...


Emphasis my own.


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## Hanafuda (Jun 20, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> *Doesn't matter whether they are criminals are not.* These are kids we are talking about, some really young. You have to be heartless to not see what is wrong here.




Of course it matters. Breaking the law includes the risk of consequences, to yourself and others. These people have assumed that risk by entering a foreign country illegally. If a mother and father are imprisoned for dealing heroin, the kid doesn't go to prison with them. How is this different?




> What about if your children were taken away from you? How would you feel then?



If it were due to a crime I had committed, I would feel that I brought it on and caused it myself.


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## chadyo (Jun 20, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> At least Hitler had a brain in his skull. He also knew when to kill himself.


Before you go comparing Trump to Hitler you should take the time to actually talk with some people who were unlucky enough to actually live and have family die under his rule.  I live and work in Pikesville, MD which has the largest Jewish population outside of New York in the U.S..  Many of the people that live in the condominiums I work at would love to sit you down and drown you in your ignorance. Many of them lost their entire familys during the holocaust. If you want to compare any president to Hitler when it comes to the treatment of Jewish people, no I'm not talking ovens and gas chambers, as well as their homeland all you have to do is look at the previous administration . An administration, along with those before it, that wouldn't even place its embassy in the capital of  Israel.  Maybe things would be better with a Margaret Higgins Sanger award winning president, after all that would be what Hitler would have wanted.  That probably shot about 10ft over your head but hopefully  one day history will be a subject that interests you.


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## GhostLatte (Jun 20, 2018)

jeff2242 said:


> A page full of under educated libtards


I despise liberals just as much as the next guy, but I'm far from being conservative. Nevertheless, calling someone a "libtard" isn't going to do much and doesn't bother me.


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## GreatCrippler (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> So that's an excuse for absolutely anything?  Just more deflection.  And FYI Trump's international trade war has wiped out pretty much all gains for 2018.  If he keeps pushing it the economy will 100% crash in 2019.
> 
> 
> This is not a "streamlining" of the process.  It's using bureaucracy as an intentionally malicious tool to slow down the process if anything.  You should expect the leaders you support to find a solution to the problem, not pass the buck to the opposing party.  Especially since Republicans have been the ones stonewalling immigration reform for years.  Also: a wall is not the same as effective policy reform.



Trade wars while bad on social media are typically good for the economy. We are dependent on trade like every other major power in the world. A little shaking things up is not likely to crash the dollar, and will usually lead to confidence gains in the market. I am not defending Donald Trump as a person, or even a good president. Laying blame at his feet for things he has little control over, and calling him Hitler is no better than the Republicans who called Obama a terrorist bent on destroying America.


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## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

GreatCrippler said:


> Trade wars while bad on social media are typically good for the economy. We are dependent on trade like every other major power in the world. A little shaking things up is not likely to crash the dollar, and will usually lead to confidence gains in the market.


It doesn't matter what confidence levels are doing when tangible value is being lost and more money has to be spent on products we're forced to import.  This will cause damage to the economy, it's professional economists stating this, not just social media.



GreatCrippler said:


> I am not defending Donald Trump as a person, or even a good president. Laying blame at his feet for things he has little control over, and calling him Hitler is no better than the Republicans who called Obama a terrorist bent on destroying America.


Trump has little control over his own administration's policies and the trade war he started?  To some extent that makes sense, these situations have spiraled, but it would also be an admission that Trump himself is completely incompetent.  At some point he needs to take responsibility at least for that.


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## xpoverzion (Jun 20, 2018)

pustal said:


> Why and would how Israel have that kind of power? I'd agree they have a great deal of political power in the US, yes, but it goes as far as maintaining support, and this is because in return Israel stands for the US in the region otherwise with little sympathy for the US, with exception perhaps of Jordan that tries to be more neutral.


Uh, no..  It's the other way around.  The U.S. stands for Israel in the Middle East


Thunder Hawk said:


> Israel > United States
> Nice meme.


The United States is "Israel."  The political state of Israel, and the U.S. are one and the same when Israel's diaspora prints every U.S. dollar, and employs the politicians.


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## GreatCrippler (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> It doesn't matter what confidence levels are doing when tangible value is being lost and more money has to be spent on products we're forced to import.  This will cause damage to the economy, it's professional economists stating this, not just social media.
> 
> 
> Trump has little control over his own administration's policies and the trade war he started?  To some extent that makes sense, these situations have spiraled, but it would also be an admission that Trump himself is completely incompetent.  At some point he needs to take responsibility at least for that.



He's the arrogant figure head at the top of the perceived toughest kid on the block (The US in this case). He's not likely to apologize or have to even answer for it, barring the Democrats taking a massive majority in the House, and Senate and going for impeachment.


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## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

GreatCrippler said:


> He's not likely to apologize or have to even answer for it, barring the Democrats taking a massive majority in the House, and Senate and going for impeachment.


Sadly true, but that also doesn't justify any of it.  If the economy crashes in 2019 as I expect it will, I give it maximum three months afterward before Trump declares he made America great again, blames the Democrats for the crash, then steps down and lets Pence take over for a year or slightly less.  Not that he's potentially any better than Trump.

Keeping this on topic, Trump will go down in history as being credited with America's first child internment camps regardless of what else happens.


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## GreatCrippler (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Sadly true, but that also doesn't justify any of it.  If the economy crashes in 2019 as I expect it will, I give it maximum three months afterward before Trump declares he made America great again, blames the Democrats for the crash, then steps down and lets Pence take over for a year or slightly less.  Not that he's potentially any better than Trump.
> 
> Keeping this on topic, Trump will go down in history as being credited with America's first child internment camps regardless of what else happens.



Doubtful. It's a human rights issue that has existed for decades. It will be a news blurb until the next stupid thing he does. And don't underestimate Pence. As bad as Trump is, I would vote for him over Pence's crazy ass any day of the week. :-P


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## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

GreatCrippler said:


> Doubtful. It's a human rights issue that has existed for decades.


It's existed for decades in dictatorships.  The closest America has had was Japanese internment camps.  This will be in history books, just as all of Trump's bad decisions will be.


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## GreatCrippler (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> It's existed for decades in dictatorships.  The closest America has had was Japanese internment camps.  This will be in history books, just as all of Trump's bad decisions will be.


*sigh* I know better than to have these discussions. It's all over every inch of social media. No, it hasn't been since the Japanese camps. We have been separating children from illegals crossing the border for decades. Those first pictures that came out calling Trump the devil, and caging kids? Those were from 2014. Oh yea when a Democrat was in office. SJWs just have to have their flavor of the week. Japanese Americans in camps was a blight on American history, and a mistake not to be repeated. This is a poor handling of an already broken situation that the president makes himself sound worse than usual by doubling down on a poorly worded set of policies. Comparing Trump to Hitler, and this to Japanese internment camps shows a poor grasp on American history, and social issues in general. Is it bad that kids are separated from their families? Definitely. It's a crap situation with crap ramifications. Having a President who wants to use it to further an agenda, and pressure the left to cave to concessions they don't want to make is sleazy. It's a sign of poor leadership. It is however not one for the history books, nor is it in any way anything more than a blip on the radar. I really need to stop interjecting in these kinds of topics, because it seems there are too few realists left in the world. Reply how you will, call me foolish, and tell me why Trump will burn in hell, or that he is our savior, or whatever else anyone reading this thinks. I will do my best to politely not comment on these threads moving forward, and do my best to leave this one be. Love, and hugs to all, and may your politics, and social justice causes be merry. 

TL;DR: I never knew how much I needed a super baby fighting a raccoon in an all out brawl until I went to the movies tonight.


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## pustal (Jun 20, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> Uh, no..  It's the other way around.  The U.S. stands for Israel in the Middle East
> 
> The United States is "Israel."  The political state of Israel, and the U.S. are one and the same when Israel's diaspora prints every U.S. dollar, and employs the politicians.



The US stands for Israel in the middle East and in return Israel serves as an US influence Outpost.

And what the hell are you talking about, USD is printed by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing of the deparmtnde of treasury.

About politicians, there is a strong influence, probably there are strong donations but more likely from Jewish-Americans that support Israel. Otherwise would be a crime in the US.



GreatCrippler said:


> *sigh* I know better than to have these discussions. It's all over every inch of social media. No, it hasn't been since the Japanese camps. We have been separating children from illegals crossing the border for decades. Those first pictures that came out calling Trump the devil, and caging kids? Those were from 2014. Oh yea when a Democrat was in office. SJWs just have to have their flavor of the week. Japanese Americans in camps was a blight on American history, and a mistake not to be repeated. This is a poor handling of an already broken situation that the president makes himself sound worse than usual by doubling down on a poorly worded set of policies. Comparing Trump to Hitler, and this to Japanese internment camps shows a poor grasp on American history, and social issues in general. Is it bad that kids are separated from their families? Definitely. It's a crap situation with crap ramifications. Having a President who wants to use it to further an agenda, and pressure the left to cave to concessions they don't want to make is sleazy. It's a sign of poor leadership. It is however not one for the history books, nor is it in any way anything more than a blip on the radar. I really need to stop interjecting in these kinds of topics, because it seems there are too few realists left in the world. Reply how you will, call me foolish, and tell me why Trump will burn in hell, or that he is our savior, or whatever else anyone reading this thinks. I will do my best to politely not comment on these threads moving forward, and do my best to leave this one be. Love, and hugs to all, and may your politics, and social justice causes be merry.
> 
> TL;DR: I never knew how much I needed a super baby fighting a raccoon in an all out brawl until I went to the movies tonight.



The 2014 pictures are from Arizona and Texas detainment centers that were Republican gorverned states. There is no federal law that forces them to be processed like that. Nevertheless children were not separated and those photos are from children that entered the country unaccompanied. The current issue is a bigger beast. This is not carelessness for the children but the usage of their suffering for political purposes. This is not a SJW issue, it is a a human rights violation, which can gonunpanished as the US is the only first world country that refused to sign the Human Rights Declaration. So yes it will go on history books, maybe not on the American ones but the whole world is watching and making note of this mess.

I don't thing many Americans have notion on how Trump is seen by the outside world. He is already made his mark on leaving the climate change agreement, backing down on the Iran deal and causing mistrust on the Ally countries, that might we'll be the percursor event for the creation of an European army, or at least changed many people's minds towards that idea. The only good thing that may come out of him it seems is the improvement in the Korean peninsula.


----------



## spotanjo3 (Jun 20, 2018)

Oh boy.. not other Trump discussion. Jeez!


----------



## Taleweaver (Jun 20, 2018)

azoreseuropa said:


> Oh boy.. not other Trump discussion. Jeez!


Erm...

*quietly points at "world news, current events & politics" label on the forum*

I'm not sure what you expected to find here.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

GreatCrippler said:


> Those first pictures that came out calling Trump the devil, and caging kids? Those were from 2014.


Next you'll tell me the audio is from 2014 too.  You don't need to devolve into conspiratorial nonsense.  The former acting director of ICE has been doing interviews since this began and he's confirmed multiple times this wasn't Obama's policy.  It wasn't even GWB's policy.  Separating families makes things just as hard on our own law enforcement, because they have no way of tracking them down later.


----------



## MadonnaProject (Jun 20, 2018)

As someone not from americ, I can tell you right now, this is the usual for america. Attacking other countries, killing people, children everything.

What surprises me is, how clueless the rest of the americans are about this and all of a sudden they are "shocked" their country committs atrocities. You do realise you're a country that has decimated numerous nations and literally eradicated countless people even if you take into account the past 18 years right?

Also, no trump has not sealed his fate by doing this. If anything, he has shown how pointless certain treaties are. Like china being in the human rights treaty, really? China? Human rights?

Come on, americans, at least try to be clued up.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

MadonnaProject said:


> What surprises me is, how clueless the rest of the americans are about this and all of a sudden they are "shocked" their country committs atrocities. You do realise you're a country that has decimated numerous nations and literally eradicated countless people even if you take into account the past 18 years right?


There are just wars.  Even wars that aren't just can often be justified.  What can't be justified are internment camps, the horrors of which the US has already experienced.  Trump couldn't just imitate Hoover, however, he had to one-up him with child internment camps.  Regardless of how anyone might try to normalize this, it is a low we've never reached before.  This country no longer has the moral authority to be a world leader, we've left that position up for grabs.


----------



## MadonnaProject (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> There are just wars.  Even wars that aren't just can often be justified.  What can't be justified are internment camps, the horrors of which the US has already experienced.  Trump couldn't just imitate Hoover, however, he had to one-up him with child internment camps.  Regardless of how anyone might try to normalize this, it is a low we've never reached before.  This country no longer has the moral authority to be a world leader, we've left that position up for grabs.



Surely you didn't just say there are "just" wars and then try to hit a moral high note by comparing these facilities to "internment camps". Just clueless. Oh well, at least you didn't do what every other american does, bring up slavery and the holocaust at the drop of a hat.

By the way, most of these children were brought over by parents who are repeat offenders trying to get into the country. They get turned away, wait along the border lines and try again. If caught, they get deported or try to claim asylum. When the asylum claims are being investigated (which is the legal and rightful thing to do) they are held. However minors cannot be held with the parents over a certain length of time, as such they are kept in their own facilities. I am not saying this is right, as I will not play a moral grandstand card you guys always seem to play but it is following a legal procedure.

Again, no war is justified and the fact you people think this is the case, and then go on to try and act the morally superior american is actually, truly, ignorant. But hey, that's americans for you. That's my take on the story, so not responding to this anymore lest it become a slagging match.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

MadonnaProject said:


> Surely you didn't just say there are "just" wars and then try to hit a moral high note by comparing these facilities to "internment camps".


Some of them are literally internment camps.  Tent cities surrounded by barbed wire fences in the middle of the desert.  But I'm sure you'll find a way to dismiss that since you're treating this like rooting for sports teams.



MadonnaProject said:


> By the way, most of these children were brought over by parents who are repeat offenders trying to get into the country.


Excuses and deflection.  This is not a good reason for separating families.  There is no good reason for it, and if you believe there is, you've lost all common sense and morality.



MadonnaProject said:


> Again, no war is justified


The Civil War?  Revolutionary War?  WWII?  You're willing to defend imprisoning children, but you can't think of one historical example where war brought about positive change?


----------



## digipimp75 (Jun 20, 2018)

No, Trump is king.  All hail him.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

digipimp75 said:


> No, Trump is king.  All hail him.


If he wants to keep acting like a king from Game of Thrones, it's about time he was killed off like one.

Trump has the ability to stop family separation immediately.  _"AP Sources: Homeland Security secretary drafting order to end family separation at border; unclear if Trump will sign it."
_
https://www.apnews.com/dc1a01eb312f...tion-at-border;-unclear-if-Trump-will-sign-it


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> If he wants to keep acting like a king from Game of Thrones, it's about time he was killed off like one.
> 
> Trump has the ability to stop family separation immediately.  _"AP Sources: Homeland Security secretary drafting order to end family separation at border; unclear if Trump will sign it."
> _
> https://www.apnews.com/dc1a01eb312f...tion-at-border;-unclear-if-Trump-will-sign-it




Well, Trump did sign it. Should have been addressed by the Legislative branch, but Schumer wouldn't get on board with a GOP-sponsored fix. Now that Trump has signed the order ending family separation for illegal alien detainees, the opposition is already complaining now that this means the kids stay in detention with their family members, i.e. moved goalposts.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Well, Trump did sign it. Should have been addressed by the Legislative branch, but Schumer wouldn't get on board with a GOP-sponsored fix. Now that Trump has signed the order ending family separation for illegal alien detainees, the opposition is already complaining now that this means the kids stay in detention with their family members, i.e. moved goalposts.


No, it should've been addressed by Trump from the beginning, it was his administration's policy change and he always had the ability to instantly change it again.  I guarantee that many of the parents will never see their kids again despite the policy change after this amount of time.  Further, this still amounts to a hostage situation for partisan political gain funded by taxpayer dollars.  It was inherently wrong in the first place, it's just slightly less wrong now.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> No, it should've been addressed by Trump from the beginning, it was his administration's policy change and he always had the ability to instantly change it again.  I guarantee that many of the parents will never see their kids again despite the policy change after this amount of time.  Further, this still amounts to a hostage situation for partisan political gain funded by taxpayer dollars.  It was inherently wrong in the first place, it's just slightly less wrong now.




I'll say it again .. criminals go to jail every damned day and their kids don't go with them. Entering a foreign nation illegally is a crime, so these people have been taking the same risk as any criminal all along. It was their decision.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I'll say it again .. criminals go to jail every damned day and their kids don't go with them. Entering a foreign nation illegally is a crime, so these people have been taking the same risk as any criminal all along. It was their decision.


It's a federal misdemeanor.  Each president sets the policy on how to treat individual cases.  Previously they'd simply deport families together at worst.  That's the simple, cost-saving solution.  They might spend a little time in processing, but there's never been a need to set up re-purposed Wal-Marts or fenced tent cities as detention centers.


----------



## BeniBel (Jun 20, 2018)

These kind of threads give me a headache. Truth is, Trump is the best president, he's the worst president and he's everything in between. All for one simple reason, he's human. What he thinks is right, doesn't apply for all people, because morals are different for anyone.
Even if you believe there are only two sides in life, left or right, there is no denying he did good and bad according to both sides. The lefties for example can't deny he did an amazing job with North Korea, unorthodox as his way of getting there was.

Reason we are seeing Hitler as a monster, is because he lost the war. Don't forget a lot of people supported his way of thinking (some of them still do), and should he have won the war, people would have saw him as a true hero. Truth is, bad as Hitler was, he also did good things in his life. And while he was a monster in today's society, it was thanks to a lot of countries like the US and England he even had a chance to become just that. I would suggest the youngsters reading up on what happened after WW I.

But getting back on topic. Hitler and Trump have in common that they both are the leader of a big nation. But none of the things Trump has done come any close to that of Hitler. Please be careful with such remarks, as they might mock our past.

Trump is getting bashed on a lot, and the truth is, he loves it. Most people bashing him are from outside the US, and can't vote. The more he gets bashed, the more media coverage he gets and the more popular he gets along his own fan base. So yes, he will be president till the end of his term, and most likely will get re-elected. He's not gonna start world war 3, not gonna destroy the economy or any other crazy fears out there.


----------



## Viri (Jun 20, 2018)

Watching people ree about Trump is my personal favorite thing about this section. 

Also, I wish people would stop comparing everyone they dislike to Hitler. It's pretty insulting to Jews.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I'll say it again .. criminals go to jail every damned day and their kids don't go with them. Entering a foreign nation illegally is a crime, so these people have been taking the same risk as any criminal all along. It was their decision.


In this case, do you personally believe the punishment fits the _crime_?


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 20, 2018)

Viri said:


> Watching people ree about Trump is my personal favorite thing about this section.
> 
> Also, I wish people would stop comparing everyone they dislike to Hitler. It's pretty insulting to Jews.



Remember, on the internet, it's wrong to have a different opinion. The second someone has a different belief system, opinion, etc, they are all called Hitler, apparently.

Oppose immigration? You're Hitler
Oppose Planned Parenthood? You're Hitler
Oh and my favorite: Oppose liberal agendas? You're Hitler

According to the mass media and internet keyboard warrriors


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

Viri said:


> Watching people ree about Trump is my personal favorite thing about this section.
> 
> Also, I wish people would stop comparing everyone they dislike to Hitler. It's pretty insulting to Jews.


Who's comparing him to Hitler?  Trump's closest parallels are Hoover and Nixon.  Not that either of these is a favorable comparison for a president.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Who's comparing him to Hitler?  Trump's closest parallels are Hoover and Nixon.



The internet, I've seen many posts online that called him Hitler


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 20, 2018)

Lacius said:


> In this case, do you personally believe the punishment fits the _crime_?



It rarely does, but if your question is do I think parents who illegally cross borders with their children are risking that they might get separated from them, then yeah obviously. Definitely.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> It rarely does, but if your question is do I think parents who cross borders with their children are risking that they might get separated from them, then yeah obviously. Definitely.


I'm asking if you think they should be separated from their children.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> The internet, I've seen many posts online that called him Hitler


He _is_ one person to institute internment camps for a different nationality, but it's not the best comparison since we also had Japanese internment camps instituted by an American president.  Thus Hoover is the better comparison.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 20, 2018)

Lacius said:


> I'm asking if you think they should be separated from their children.




And I'm saying they assumed that risk when they decided to bring their kids along for a criminal act. Social services take kids away from people all the time for poor parenting.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> He _is_ one person to institute internment camps for a different nationality, but it's not the best comparison since we also had Japanese internment camps instituted by an American president.  Thus Hoover is the better comparison.



Fair enough I guess


----------



## crimpshrine (Jun 20, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> He's done a pretty good job at destroying the country so far though.



Care to elaborate how you think Trump is responsible for destroying this country?  From my vantage point that is not the case.  

If you look back through recent history (50+ years) we have lost more and more personal freedom over the years.  Part of what defines America as being a great country to me, is what brought people  to this country to begin with. (Freedom)  I personally feel that America is not better off from this progression, and it has nothing to do with Trump.  We got to this point from both parties.

If you take metrics on different aspects of the state of America, I don't believe he has destroyed anything other than things related to himself directly. (Opinions possibly of him) But this country? hah.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 20, 2018)

crimpshrine said:


> We got to this point from both parties.


Trump might blame the Democrats for all his terrible decisions, but it's absolutely ridiculous to hear it coming from someone else.  We got to this point from Fox News Republicans pushing the idea that ignorance is equivalent to knowledge.  That's how you get a reality TV star (conman) as president, not because of anything Obama or the Democrats did.


----------



## invaderyoyo (Jun 20, 2018)

It's pretty sad that there are people who actually defend this. I'm sure the mental gymnastics they do are incredible. Or maybe they just don't think about it.

Trump didn't seal his own fate. He's done and said plenty of terrible things and people keep supporting him. They'll just keep supporting him.


----------



## chrisrlink (Jun 20, 2018)

to be real i hate the US government and I live here the government is just a puppet and big business has always been pulling the strings they don't give two shits bout us middle/lower class


----------



## Megadriver94 (Jun 21, 2018)

I myself have mixed feelings about trump at best. Yeah, the separating families thing is going a tad too far, but if you don't want to be separated like that, DON'T TRESPASS INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY! 










 REAL TALK!


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> And I'm saying they assumed that risk when they decided to bring their kids along for a criminal act. Social services take kids away from people all the time for poor parenting.


It says a lot that you won't answer my question.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> It says a lot that you won't answer my question.




I did answer it. Kids are taken from (citizen) parents by social services for poor parenting all the time, and often without there even being criminal charges. So your couching this as 'punishment fitting the crime' is irrelevant from a parental neglect perspective. Their kids aren't being separated from them as a _punishment_ for their crime, but criminal activity often includes consequences that are distinct from the actual punitive sentence.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 21, 2018)

Megadriver94 said:


> I myself have mixed feelings about trump at best. Yeah, the separating families thing is going a tad too far, but if you don't want to be separated like that, DON'T TRESPASS INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To address the first image, there's virtually no reason to assume that undocumented immigrants put any abnormal tax burden on the economy, and may even be positively affecting it (as disgusting as that feels to say, and you'll understand in a second), because everyone without a Social Security number that has a job is still issued a tax ID and pays income tax, but are not eligible to participate in any programs that benefit taxpayers. So, unlike American citizens, they pay into the pot but don't ever seen any benefits


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I did answer it. Kids are taken from (citizen) parents by social services for poor parenting all the time, and often without there even being criminal charges. So your couching this as 'punishment fitting the crime' is irrelevant from a parental neglect perspective. Their kids aren't being separated from them as a _punishment_ for their crime, but criminal activity often includes consequences that are distinct from the actual punitive sentence.


You actually haven't answered the question, but I'll rephrase it.
Do you personally believe a _consequence_ of their actions should be separation from their children?


----------



## Megadriver94 (Jun 21, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> To address the first image, there's virtually no reason to assume that undocumented immigrants put any abnormal tax burden on the economy, and may even be positively affecting it (as disgusting as that feels to say, and you'll understand in a second), because everyone without a Social Security number that has a job is still issued a tax ID and pays income tax, but are not eligible to participate in any programs that benefit taxpayers. So, unlike American citizens, they pay into the pot but don't ever seen any benefits


 Riiiight...
>Source: BuzzioSalonfeed


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

"Criminals should expect to have their children sent to detention centers in the US."  Since when?  What other misdemeanor results in this happening?  And would anybody be okay with the government doing this to white kids or is that argument just more hypocrisy?


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> You actually haven't answered the question, but I'll rephrase it.
> Do you personally believe a _consequence_ of their actions should be separation from their children?



No, my preference would be a secure border that can't be illegally crossed in the first place. But you might as well ask me if I think a drug dealer or murderer should be separated from their children when they go to prison. The answer is that the separation occurs as a result of what the person who committed the crime has done, not because of a 'policy.' The 'policy' you are all talking about in here was a simple announcement by the US government that it was going to prosecute illegal immigrants instead of ignoring or releasing them. In other words, they started enforcing the law. And when adults are prosecuted criminally, it is common that they end up separated from their kids. The divide between us seems to me that you don't comprehend the actions of those who illegally cross the border to be a crime. I do. If they bring their kids with them, that's another crime and a parental neglect issue. So sorry, but no outrage here. If Trump wants to cool the situation down with an executive order, that's fine -- keep the whole family together so they can be deported together.




Xzi said:


> "Criminals should expect to have their children sent to detention centers in the US."  Since when?  What other misdemeanor results in this happening?  *And would anybody be okay with the government doing this to white kids *or is that argument just more hypocrisy?



I live in ground central of the Appalachian opiate epidemic. Trust me, it's happening to white kids every day.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 21, 2018)

Megadriver94 said:


> Riiiight...
> >Source: BuzzioSalonfeed


... What?


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> No, my preference would be a secure border that can't be illegally crossed in the first place.


In today's world where border crossings do occur, do you personally believe a _consequence_ of their actions should be separation from their children?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> No, my preference would be a secure border that can't be illegally crossed in the first place.


But... Why? Why not do something like the EU where if you have a passport from one of the member countries you can reside anywhere?


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> In today's world where border crossings do occur, do you personally believe a _consequence_ of their actions should be separation from their children?



Should it be that way by design, i.e. a defined part of the punishment? No. But I already said it, you might as well ask me if a bank robber or drug dealer or murderer should be separated from their children when sent to prison. It happens as part of the process. As the law was written until the EO was signed today, if the adults were prosecuted they had to be detained separately. That was the law under Obama too, they just weren't enforcing/following it as much/often.

I personally don't want families to be separated like this. So they should stay in the country where they are citizens already, or apply for legal entry if they want to emigrate to the US. No, I don't care if the wait is long.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I live in ground central of the Appalachian opiate epidemic. Trust me, it's happening to white kids every day.


How is the choice to use hard drugs at all comparable to having your children forcibly taken from you and then detained?  I'm no fan of big pharma, but it's not like Trump is doing anything about that crisis either, he just starts more of his own fires.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Xzi said:


> *How is the choice to use hard drugs at all comparable to having your children forcibly taken from you and then detained?*  I'm no fan of big pharma, but it's not like Trump is doing anything about that crisis either, he just starts more of his own fires.




Because the choice to use hard drugs and the choice to expose your child to great risk as you smuggle them across a border illegally are both criminal acts and parental neglect.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Should it be that way by design, i.e. a defined part of the punishment? No.


For the record, I've asked five times (this will be the sixth), and I haven't received a direct answer from @Hanafuda.
Should the consequence of being separated from one's children be that way at all?


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Because the choice to use hard drugs and the choice to expose your child to great risk as you smuggle them across a border illegally are both criminal acts and parental neglect.


Yes, let's not put any blame on the industry pushing the drugs or the prison industrial complex profiting from taxpayer money via mass incarceration of children.  It's all the _parents_ fault.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> For the record, I've asked five times (this will be the sixth), and I haven't received a direct answer from @Hanafuda.
> Should the consequence of being separated from one's children be that way at all?



I dispute your claim that I haven't given you a direct answer. Does a person deserve to have all their ass hair burned if they light a fart? Maybe, maybe not. But don't ask me to feel sorry for them when it happens.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> Yes, let's not put any blame on the industry pushing the drugs or the prison industrial complex profiting from mass incarceration of children.  It's all the _parents_ fault.




It is.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> It is.


Uh-huh.  The Republicans love law and order.  Until it comes to their own leaders facing responsibility for illegal acts.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Uh-huh.  The Republicans love law and order.  Until it comes to their own leaders facing responsibility for illegal acts.



Well, that's a different topic. But I don't think either party has a great track record on that issue. And, I'm not a registered Republican if that was the insinuation.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I dispute your claim that I haven't given you a direct answer.



Acknowledged that parents are taking risks; didn't answer the question.
Acknowledged that parents are taking risks; didn't answer the question.
Acknowledged that it's a consequence and not a punishment; didn't answer the question.
Said that between the separation policy and a secure border, he would choose a secure border; didn't answer the question.
Said it shouldn't be a designed part of the punishment but said nothing about it as a consequence; didn't answer the question. Edit: Also said that between families coming across the border and being separated and families not coming across the border, he would choose that they not come across the border; didn't answer the question.
Merely disputed my claim that he hasn't given a direct answer; didn't answer the question.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> Acknowledged that parents are taking risks; didn't answer the question.
> Acknowledged that parents are taking risks; didn't answer the question.
> Acknowledged that it's a consequence and not a punishment; didn't answer the question.
> Said that between the separation policy and a secure border, he would choose a secure border; didn't answer the question.
> ...




No, I specifically stated above that I don't want to see families separated like this. So don't cross our border, because that makes you a criminal and that happens to criminals.

I also said that I do not think separating parents from children should be a specifically delineated _punishment_ for crossing the border, any more than it is for other crimes. But it is a common consequence for committing crime(s), so it's not surprising or extraordinary. Keeping criminal defendants in custody with their children though ... that _is_ unusual, but I guess we're gonna do that now.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> No, I specifically stated above that I don't want to see families separated like this. So don't cross our border, because that makes you a criminal and that happens to criminals.


You're saying that between families coming across the border and being separated and families not coming across the border, you would choose that they not come across the border. That doesn't answer the question. It also ignores how I phrased the question earlier. See the revised #5 on my list.



Hanafuda said:


> I also said that I do not think separating parents from children should be a specifically delineated _punishment_ for crossing the border, any more than it is for other crimes.


You said it shouldn't be a designed part of the punishment but said nothing about it as a consequence. That doesn't answer my question. See #5 on my list.



Hanafuda said:


> But it is a common consequence for committing crime(s), so it's not surprising or extraordinary. Keeping criminal defendants in custody with their children _is_ unusual, but I guess we're gonna do that now.


The policy you're describing regarding criminal parents is for the well being of the child. Can you tell me anything about Trump's child-separation policy that is about the well being of the child?

You keep using the examples of armed robbers and murders with regard to child-separation, which is in part why I asked if you thought child-separation among border-crossers was a punishment that fit the alleged crime, but you deflected with an argument about the difference between a _punishment_ and a _consequence_ without answering the question.

Edit: It should be noted that when children are separated from _murderers_ and _armed robbers_, they're usually put in the care of someone like a family member, not put into cages at child camps.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Well, that's a different topic. But I don't think either party has a great track record on that issue.


Neither party has ever had a president like Trump before, so that's a moot point.  I'd be saying the same things if GWB or Obama had child internment camps.  Justice applied only to the poorest and weakest among us is no justice at all.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> Trump's child-separation policy




Show me where the US code or any federal regulation was changed to effectuate 'child-separation' where it wasn't in the law before. Show me how (at least before the EO today) the Federal government could be in compliance with the law without separate facilities for minors.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Show me where the US code or any federal regulation was changed to effectuate 'child-separation' where it wasn't in the law before.


There's video footage of Jeff Sessions talking about implementing the policy.  He cites the Bible for justification, I shit you not.  There's also footage of Trump saying, "you have to take the children."


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Show me where the US code or any federal regulation was changed to effectuate 'child-separation' where it wasn't in the law before.



You're dodging my question again.
The policy is an enforcement aspect, not a written law or regulation.
When the policy was unveiled, it was described in part as child-separation.


----------



## Fugelmir (Jun 21, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> Doesn't matter whether they are criminals are not. These are kids we are talking about, some really young. You have to be heartless to not see what is wrong here. What about if your children were taken away from you? How would you feel then?



If you illegally cross into a country, it makes sense that your children are taken from you.  These are people who are dodging the legitimate ports of entry and caught.  The children are treated well.  

If you want to keep your children, stay where you are and raise them.  It's simple.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> If you illegally cross into a country, it makes sense that your children are taken from you.  The children are treated well.


In what twisted form of logic does that make sense?  "We dislike illegals being in our country so we're only going to deport the adults and keep the children."  Also, they're being stuck in re-purposed Wal-Marts that we're not allowed to see inside.  Nobody can give us confirmation that they're being treated well.  All we have is that audio clip which suggests the opposite.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> You're dodging my question again.


Your question is should a person who has committed an illegal border crossing and also committed child endangerment and smuggling of a minor over that border should be separated from the child? If they're to be incarcerated pending the outcome of those criminal charges, then yes. Same as with any other adult put in "jail."



> The policy is an enforcement aspect, not a written law or regulation.



If you're getting at prosecutorial discretion, then you're saying you want the executive branch to just ignore the laws passed by the legislative branch. Not good. Prosecutorial discretion is supposed to be applied on a case-by-case basis depending on the facts, not wholesale avoidance of enforcing the law.



> When the policy was unveiled, it was described in part as child-separation.



By operation of the law as written, it is. Federal regulation requires that children that come into federal custody as a result of a parent being charged criminally can only be held in 'detention' for 72 hours. After that they have to be placed with DHHS. This WaPo article says its taking an average 45 days to place the kids with other relatives or into foster care after that. So in announcing that they were going to actively enforce the law as-written, making the inevitability of this regulatory mess requiring the children being separated was just fair warning.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Your question is should a person who has committed an illegal border crossing and also committed child endangerment and smuggling of a minor over that border should be separated from the child? If they're to be incarcerated pending the outcome of those criminal charges, then *yes*.


Thank you for finally answering my question. That would make you opposed to today's executive order then.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> Thank you for finally answering my question. That would make you opposed to today's executive order then.




Hmmm. Opposed to it? Yes, as a special exception made for a certain type of criminal defendant, I find it concerning. As a practical/human matter, no I'm not opposed to it and didn't like that families were being separated by the operation of law. But I don't hold Trump responsible for the law saying and doing what it does - all he ordered was that the law be enforced and followed. That criminal activity results in regrettable and even heart-wrenching circumstances is nothing new. But that just goes again to the root of our differences -- this wouldn't happen if they didn't enter our country illegally in the first place.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Your question is should a person who has committed an illegal border crossing and also committed child endangerment and smuggling of a minor over that border should be separated from the child? If they're to be incarcerated pending the outcome of those criminal charges, then *yes*.





Hanafuda said:


> As a practical/human matter, no I'm not opposed to it and *didn't like that families were being separated by the operation of law*.


Which is it?


----------



## Hanafuda (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> Which is it?




Ah, see that's where we were having some communication issues. You want to know how I personally feeeeeeeel about it? Sure, I don't like it. I understand they're not violent people, if they're bringing kids with them then they're probably doing so to obtain a better life for them, etc. I get all that. It's illegal and they have no right to try except by legal processes, but I get it. But the other side I was considering is how this works in criminal law. If the government is going to follow the law as-written (and Trump's EO doesn't really change it, it just end-runs it) then the kids can't be kept in criminal detention with the adults who are being prosecuted. I can't think of any legal reason to carve an exception for this particular type of incarcerated person vs. others incarcerated for other crimes. It's not a wise precedent.


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## Darkshade (Jun 21, 2018)

Lacius said:


> Which is it?


I can't say this is a topic I really want get into, but you've asked him the same question about 7 times now and he's been pretty straightforward with answering it:

He doesn't like children getting separated from their parents as a general rule (Who would?).

However, if those parents have broken the law and the repercussions for that indirectly cause a child to be separated from their parents then so be it.
If you break the law, you don't have the luxury of having it both ways.

Just because something evokes an emotional response doesn't necessarily mean it's an overall negative.
As has already been pointed out - nobody is forcefully taking children away from their parents as punishment (although it is a side-effect), they're being punished for the crime of illegally immigrating.
Don't break the law and you won't be punished for it (And in turn, will avoid being separated from your children).
I'm not from the US, but it's not a hard concept to understand.


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## chrisrlink (Jun 21, 2018)

don't forget bout the Mexican drug lords if you escape from them and you get turned away better start digging your grave and don't go saying "but other gangs do that..." not at the Cartel's level picture being tortured for days,weeks before getting murdered you'll be begging for the drug lords for your execution there has been one report a deported teen just got killed by the cartel only a week after forced deportation why you think travel advisories are in place for mexico because the cartel kidnaps foreigners for extortion as political bargaining chips


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## Fugelmir (Jun 21, 2018)

Xzi said:


> In what twisted form of logic does that make sense?  "We dislike illegals being in our country so we're only going to deport the adults and keep the children."  Also, they're being stuck in re-purposed Wal-Marts that we're not allowed to see inside.  Nobody can give us confirmation that they're being treated well.  All we have is that audio clip which suggests the opposite.



It's not as simple as mainstream media depicts.  In many cases, they can't even determine if they are legitimately related.


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## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> It's not as simple as mainstream media depicts.  In many cases, they can't even determine if they are legitimately related.



A Youtube spinshop as a source, yikes.


----------



## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

chrisrlink said:


> don't forget bout the Mexican drug lords if you escape from them and you get turned away better start digging your grave and don't go saying "but other gangs do that..." not at the Cartel's level picture being tortured for days,weeks before getting murdered you'll be begging for the drug lords for your execution there has been one report a deported teen just got killed by the cartel only a week after forced deportation why you think travel advisories are in place for mexico because the cartel kidnaps foreigners for extortion as political bargaining chips


where did you get that info about the kidnappings?


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## invaderyoyo (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> If you illegally cross into a country, it makes sense that your children are taken from you.  These are people who are dodging the legitimate ports of entry and caught.  The children are treated well.
> 
> If you want to keep your children, stay where you are and raise them.  It's simple.


It isn't as "simple" as you think. These people decide to risk everything and come to a foreign land where they don't even understand the language or have legal status. What would cause someone to decide that? It's anything, but simple. If it were simple illegal immigration wouldn't be a controversial topic.

Laws should be enforced, otherwise there would be chaos, but we should remember that laws are made by people and people make loads of mistakes.


----------



## Fugelmir (Jun 21, 2018)

Xzi said:


> A Youtube spinshop as a source, yikes.



It's rightwing.  Hardly a spinshop.  Go look at the Clinton News Network. Which is supposed to be UNBIASED and centrist.


----------



## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> It's rightwing.  Hardly a spinshop.  Go look at the Clinton News Network. Which is supposed to be UNBIASED and centrist.


you're missing the point, none of those are unbiased.


----------



## Fugelmir (Jun 21, 2018)

lordkaos said:


> you're missing the point, none of those are unbiased.



I don't think so.  CNN is supposed to be unbiased, its ethos is professional journalism.  Rebel media is conservative -- that's its whole schtick -- it challenges the left and calls it on the bullshit narrative.  Which in this case is that the US Government is depriving people who enter illegally of their human rights.  Just doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## Eastonator12 (Jun 21, 2018)

chrisrlink said:


> over the past few weeks if you haven't been living under a rock Trump has enforced the so called zero tolerance policy allowing border Patrol  and the US government to Prosecute illegal's not only that they are taking their children away in the process as a "deterrent" for others to cross now a Post maybe already done news wise on this subject i'm guessing so I'm taking this as opinion based with one simple question....do you think this maybe the final straw for him and maybe heated talks (secret) have begun to impeach him let alone probably charge him with human rights crimes? what do you guys and gals think have they started you think or maybe you view he should be impeached now? leave your comments below


The thing is pal, out of 12,000 of these "immigrant children", 10,000 aren't even with their REAL PARENTS. Which means they were sent with cartels and gangs up the border. parents who do that don't deserve children. and second, he did this to pressure the democrats to pass a law to fix it, which of course they passed up because they don't actually want to fix the problem.


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## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> I don't think so.  CNN is supposed to be unbiased, its ethos is professional journalism.  Rebel media is conservative -- that's its whole schtick -- it challenges the left and calls it on the bullshit narrative.  Which in this case is that the US Government is depriving people who enter illegally of their human rights.  Just doesn't seem to be the case.


you just said it is right wing, so the videos and news will have a conservative bias.


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## Fugelmir (Jun 21, 2018)

lordkaos said:


> you just said it is right wing, so the videos and news will have a conservative bias.



There's nothing wrong with a conservative or liberal bias IF they're honest about it and if the reporting is factual.  MSM like CNN/NYT don't have that honesty badge -- its identity politics and that's all there is to it.  These stories are being presented as serious news and its been like this in the Obama era for ages.  Now Trump's to blame?


----------



## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> There's nothing wrong with a conservative or liberal bias IF they're honest about it and if the reporting is factual.  MSM like CNN/NYT don't have that honesty badge -- its identity politics and that's all there is to it.  These stories are being presented as serious news and its been like this in the Obama era for ages.  Now Trump's to blame?


I don't agree, If you only watch news sources that share your bias it's like you're only reinforcing your way of thinking and closing your mind to different ideas, in a way that's also identity politics cause you identify yourself as a conservative and only watch news with a conservative bias. I agree that CNN focuses too much on Donald Trump (the person) instead on focusing on Donald Trump (the movement), I mean, some of his appointees are doing a lot of horrible shit and instead they focus on dumb things like that photo of Melania's hat.


----------



## wolf-snake (Jun 21, 2018)

As a Mexican myself i would say this: Trump can be quite extreme sometimes... Or all the time. But i can't really agree that much on people risking their children's life by making them cross the border ilegally. The Mexico/USA border can be quite rough for kids, specially for the young ones. Some adults don't even make it alive so why risk your own children's life?


----------



## Joe88 (Jun 21, 2018)

lordkaos said:


> I don't agree, If you only watch news sources that share your bias it's like you're only reinforcing your way of thinking and closing your mind to different ideas, in a way that's also identity politics cause you identify yourself as a conservative and only watch news with a conservative bias. I agree that CNN focuses too much on Donald Trump (the person) instead on focusing on Donald Trump (the movement), I mean, some of his appointees are doing a lot of horrible shit and instead they focus on dumb things like that photo of Melania's hat.


Don't worry cnn is on top of the important issues


----------



## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

wolf-snake said:


> As a Mexican myself i would say this: Trump can be quite extreme sometimes... Or all the time. But i can't really agree that much on people risking their children's life by making them cross the border ilegally. The Mexico/USA border can be quite rough for kids, specially for the young ones. Some adults don't even make it alive so why risk your own children's life?





Joe88 said:


> Don't worry cnn is on top of the important issues


please stop the shitposting.


----------



## Fugelmir (Jun 21, 2018)

lordkaos said:


> I don't agree, If you only watch news sources that share your bias it's like you're only reinforcing your way of thinking and closing your mind to different ideas, in a way that's also identity politics cause you identify yourself as a conservative and only watch news with a conservative bias. I agree that CNN focuses too much on Donald Trump (the person) instead on focusing on Donald Trump (the movement), I mean, some of his appointees are doing a lot of horrible shit and instead they focus on dumb things like that photo of Melania's hat.



We are inundated with left wing media.  CNN in particular.  When I go to the gym, I noticed that CNN was always playing on the monitors and I asked why CNN to one of the managers -- they told me they had a contract to play that channel 24/7 and they'd receive a discount on their services.

In Canada, we don't have a conservative news outlet like Fox News to challenge our government-funded left wing CBC news.  So I, unfortunately or fortunately I suppose, have a stellar knowledge of what's going on in the left because it is emitted over just about every radio station and across multimedia.

I choose to listen to the other side when I have the chance and they make a much stronger argument.  

The left has become lazy and motivated by clickbait and ad-revenue over journalism.  It's become evident to me  that the right wing media actually has more in common with every day people's concerns hence why Clinton and soon-to-be Trudeau are curbstomped.


----------



## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

wolf-snake said:


> As a Mexican myself i would say this: Trump can be quite extreme sometimes... Or all the time. But i can't really agree that much on people risking their children's life by making them cross the border ilegally. The Mexico/USA border can be quite rough for kids, specially for the young ones. Some adults don't even make it alive so why risk your own children's life?


cause those people don't see another choice in their lives, most of those people come from really poor rural areas where there is no decent job, a lot of people say "they should just do the paperwork like legal immigrants", the case is that not even in a hundred years would they be admitted in the country legally as they're really poor and uneducated.


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## Deleted User (Jun 21, 2018)

I heard he was enforcing some 2008 policy that Obama chose not to enforce. If thats the case I think a policy should be enforced but if it's a bad one it should be changed.


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## Cylent1 (Jun 21, 2018)

What is a fact is Trump will be POTUS until 2024!
No other president have ever come close to Trumps accomplishments.
and even though you would rather get caught dead with a dick in your ass than admit it, there is nothing you can do to chage the facts!


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## Joe88 (Jun 21, 2018)

lordkaos said:


> please stop the shitposting.


Do you even know what a shitpost is?
This was an actual thing cnn decided to dedicate coverage, a complete non story but because trump was involved, cue "BREAKING NEWS" intro
These are the things why people are fed up with the media and they have single digit approval ratings, and nothing has changed, in fact it's gotten worse imo.


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## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> Do you even know what a shitpost is?
> This was an actual thing cnn decided to dedicate coverage, a complete non story but because trump was involved, cue "BREAKING NEWS" intro
> These are the things why people are fed up with the media and they have single digit approval ratings, and nothing has changed, in fact it's gotten worse imo.


It hasn't gotten worse, 24-hour news channels have always had to fill time.  OTOH, a 24-hour news channel launched Trump's campaign for him, so I suppose in that sense it has gotten worse.


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## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> We are inundated with left wing media.  CNN in particular.  When I go to the gym, I noticed that CNN was always playing on the monitors and I asked why CNN to one of the managers -- they told me they had a contract to play that channel 24/7 and they'd receive a discount on their services.
> 
> In Canada, we don't have a conservative news outlet like Fox News to challenge our government-funded left wing CBC news.  So I, unfortunately or fortunately I suppose, have a stellar knowledge of what's going on in the left because it is emitted over just about every radio station and across multimedia.
> 
> ...


 Why exactly you don't like Trudeau? if i may ask, explain it as extensively as you can.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> The left has become lazy and motivated by clickbait and ad-revenue over journalism.


You can't sincerely be blaming the left for clickbait.  And ad revenue?  Every Conservative piece I've seen gets interrupted halfway through for the host to sell "bone broth" or some other wannabe-alpha nonsense product.


----------



## RustInPeace (Jun 21, 2018)

He's serving his term and possibly will be re-elected, can't stand him, but it's just a grim expectation. On the bright side, this Space Force thing, I'm all for because there are some able people for this.


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## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

RustInPeace said:


> He's serving his term and possibly will be re-elected, can't stand him, but it's just a grim expectation. On the bright side, this Space Force thing, I'm all for because there are some able people for this.


lol, I've seen a lot of power rangers in space references these days, is this a meme or something?


----------



## hoist20032002 (Jun 21, 2018)

I can't stand trump at all and voted 3rd party. it was either 3rd party or vote between a crook (trump) and a criminal hypocrite ( hillary). anyways.. do the lot of you know that bill clinton made the law that trump is using and obama ENFORCED the SAME law that trump is enforcing, right? also, we have parents that get sent to prison, every single day..whether they're innocent or not, what's the difference between prisoners that lose their kids to the system or illegals that get sent back for breaking the law?


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## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

lordkaos said:


> lol, I've seen a lot of power rangers in space references these days, is this a meme or something?


Not a meme.  Trump is trying to create a sixth military branch, "Space Force."

https://www.popsci.com/trump-military-space-force



hoist20032002 said:


> I can't stand trump at all and voted 3rd party. it was either 3rd party or vote between a crook (trump) and a criminal hypocrite ( hillary). anyways.. do the lot of you know that bill clinton made the law that trump is using and obama ENFORCED the SAME law that trump is enforcing, right? also, we have parents that get sent to prison, every single day..whether they're innocent or not, what's the difference between prisoners that lose their kids to the system or illegals that get sent back for breaking the law?


You forgot to point out that both GWB and Obama attempted immigration reform of some type and it was rejected by the mainline GOP leadership both times.


----------



## hoist20032002 (Jun 21, 2018)

also, how is trumps lame ass equivalent to hitler? where is the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of deaths from genocide at? c'mon, get real...


----------



## Fugelmir (Jun 21, 2018)

Snugglevixen said:


> I heard he was enforcing some 2008 policy that Obama chose not to enforce. If thats the case I think a policy should be enforced but if it's a bad one it should be changed.



A bunch of the footage CNN was airing was actually during Obama's era.  But this isn't even bad


Xzi said:


> You can't sincerely be blaming the left for clickbait.  And ad revenue?  Every Conservative piece I've seen gets interrupted halfway through for the host to sell "bone broth" or some other wannabe-alpha nonsense product.



Selling stuff is fine, business is business. Journalists need to make money.



lordkaos said:


> Why exactly you don't like Trudeau? if i may ask, explain it as extensively as you can.



The liberals in Canada have driven most parts of the country into energy poverty.  Especially Ontario which pays about 4x what a reasonably priced energy safe place like Pennsylvania pays. This began by the liberals before Trudeau who banned the use of clean burning coal (cheapest form of energy) and the use of hydroelectricity (probably the most expensive form)  Factor in the liberal carbon tax which raises the cost of living and to top it all off: the minimum wage hike to 14 dollars to compensate.  This perfect storm has driven away enormous business and is a key reason why Doug Ford's conservatives are set to dethrone him.  He's lost Ontario for sure.   

Trudeau was a part-time drama teacher and environmental extremist who allows radicals to overthrow legitimate businesses in the name of virtue signalling.  So, projects like the Energy East pipeline are cancelled in this climate costing thousands of jobs.  Alberta was an enormously successful province with its vast supply of oilsands.  It was so wealthy that it was sending transfer payments (welfare) to struggling provinces like Quebec and P.E.I.  

Now it needs "welfare" because oil was its lifeline and we don't have the GDP to supply it.

Okay so now today it looks like Trudeau is going to call Trump's bluff on free trade.  Unfortunately, Canada depends on the US far more than we depend on them.  This is going to cause structural defecits because:

we are taking in hundreds of thousands of refugees under Trudeau's refugee rush.  Not only are we taking refugees from Syria, but thousands of "refugees" from the United States who were refused under Trump are fleeing to Canada before they are deported.

The main industry we have now is automotive manufacturing in Ontario.  And Trump's trade deal can slaughter it.  USA is a self sufficient country.  Canada is not.  We have a fortune of oil in the ground that current politics forbid us from exploiting.

I won't even touch the muslim creeping sharia issue throttling our free speech.  I'm sure you're aware of that.

TL;DR:  The economy is in shambles and liberal policies have chased away foreign investment.


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## RustInPeace (Jun 21, 2018)

lordkaos said:


> lol, I've seen a lot of power rangers in space references these days, is this a meme or something?



If it's not, it should be.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> Selling stuff is fine, business is business. Journalists need to make money.


Holy hell, careful not to break your neck doing a 180 that quickly.  Or is it only a problem when Liberals have commercial breaks?  I recommend more reading your news, less watching it/listening to it.  That way, you can confirm with multiple sources.


----------



## Deleted User (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> The liberals in Canada have driven most parts of the country into energy poverty.  Especially Ontario which pays about 4x what a reasonably priced energy safe place like Pennsylvania pays. This began by the liberals before Trudeau who banned the use of clean burning coal (cheapest form of energy) and the use of hydroelectricity (probably the most expensive form)  Factor in the liberal carbon tax which raises the cost of living and to top it all off: the minimum wage hike to 14 dollars to compensate.  This perfect storm has driven away enormous business and is a key reason why Doug Ford's conservatives are set to dethrone him.  He's lost Ontario for sure.
> 
> Trudeau was a part-time drama teacher and environmental extremist who allows radicals to overthrow legitimate businesses in the name of virtue signalling.  So, projects like the Energy East pipeline are cancelled in this climate costing thousands of jobs.  Alberta was an enormously successful province with its vast supply of oilsands.  It was so wealthy that it was sending transfer payments (welfare) to struggling provinces like Quebec and P.E.I.
> 
> ...


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nsplaining-peoplekind-canada-pm-a8197776.html and theres this


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## lordkaos (Jun 21, 2018)

Snugglevixen said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nsplaining-peoplekind-canada-pm-a8197776.html and theres this


peoplekind sounds wrong, he should've just said humanity.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 21, 2018)

Fugelmir said:


> In Canada, we don't have a conservative news outlet like Fox News to challenge our government-funded left wing CBC news.  So I, unfortunately or fortunately I suppose, have a stellar knowledge of what's going on in the left because it is emitted over just about every radio station and across multimedia.


Our President not only watches, but makes policy decisions based expressly on the opinions given by Fox News anchors and you have the gall to imply that anything further left of them is "government funded"

The ONLY news source that that works for is NPR, and I dare say they're pretty center and unbiased, because they quite literally have to be 100%, infallibly, bulletproof honest or else their funding gets pulled

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



hoist20032002 said:


> also, how is trumps lame ass equivalent to hitler? where is the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of deaths from genocide at? c'mon, get real...


If you think Hitler didn't have "humble" beginnings I suggest you crack open a WWI-WWII history book. I'm not in any way endorsing calling him Hitler incarnate, but the parallels in both policy and rise to power so far are a little bit uncanny


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## hoist20032002 (Jun 21, 2018)

LOL so gwb and obama NEVER deported back illegals? are you freaking serious or stupid? it started with bill clinton 20 years ago and has been going on since then. if you honestly think that neither gwb or obama never continued that policy, than you need help. @Xzi  ....how exactly is he "like" hitler? he's doing exactly what the last 2 presidents had done. trump hasn't taken away america's freedoms from its LEGAL citizens ie: first amendment, second amendment, the rest of the constitution, or anything else for that matter. I've read about WWI-WWII history books and if I remember correctly..didn't hitler destroy all of the guns, monuments, history books, and wayyyy more, along with taking freedom of speech away? hitler also caused genocide of a people FROM THEIR OWN COUNTRY before he rose to power and TOOK countries over. I for one cannot stand trump but he is far from hitler.. hitler was smarter and please give me some examples that trump is putting genocide on people. don't give me the bullcrap about "he's sending parents back without their kids while they stay in the system n blah blah blah". they're being treated better than our own that are lost in the system thanks to their parents being criminals. so what makes illegals any better than american criminals? @TotalInsanity4


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## urherenow (Jun 21, 2018)

How many US citizens are in jail right now? What do you think happens to their children? You want better treatment for people who a) do not belong here, and b) most of which are not even closely related to the adults they were with (the adults, being the ones who are actually being arrested).

Why do none of you idiots who think you know something about politics or how to keep a country running, never once protest the organization called CPS? How many families are torn apart every year, a majority of which never end in the parents being convicted of child abuse or the like?

I wish I could get you all in a room for several days so I could educate you on how things REALLY are. Here's a start though: 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Our President not only watches, but makes policy decisions based expressly on the opinions given by Fox News
> <snip>
> 
> The ONLY news source that that works for is NPR, and I dare say they're pretty center and unbiased, because they quite literally have to be 100%, infallibly, bulletproof honest or else their funding gets pulled


1st part: Don't be naive. He has JCS, and many advisers, just like any other POTUS.

2nd part: And NHK would love you to believe the same thing about them. Get real. Even if every single thing said/reported were 100% true, it's still biased when you don't report everything from all sides. Omission is the same as lying. Deception, at the very least.


----------



## Xzi (Jun 21, 2018)

hoist20032002 said:


> @Xzi ....how exactly is he "like" hitler? he's doing exactly what the last 2 presidents had done.


I think you've got me mixed up with TotalInsanity, I compared Trump to Hoover and Nixon.  And no, this is not the same policy as the last two administrations.  If it was, then Trump's administration wouldn't have had to construct/re-purpose all the detention facilities from scratch.  Of course there's corruption involved, as the 'Company that runs immigration detention centers is top donor for two Texas congressmen.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pol...ntion-centers-top-donor-two-texas-congressmen


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 21, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I think you've got me mixed up with TotalInsanity


Hey man, don't throw ME under the bus, I don't think I've said that in this thread yet other than my response to him 


urherenow said:


> How many US citizens are in jail right now? What do you think happens to their children?


Ideally? They're relocated to either their closest relative, or they are given foster parents. However, you bring up a good point, if not executing it a bit wrong; Americans tend to be complacent about a LOT of things, so long as it doesn't affect them, but for the most part have big hearts and will do what they can to fight injustice when they CAN see it. However, not many people, other than kids who have been in the system and parents affected, know about the inner workings of Child Protective Services. I actually agree that there is injustice there, too, especially when parents are locked up for non-violent crimes that ultimately were done trying to support the kids. However, and I hate to say it this way, but it's true; if you ACTUALLY cared about that issue, you'd bring it up not just now, but at another point, or even in a topic that's unrelated to this if you chose to pursue this current time to focus on it. Because what you're doing, rather than trying to raise awareness for what you see as an injustice, is trying to shift focus away from something that you know is just as bad, if not worse.



> 1st part: Don't be naive. He has JCS, and many advisers, just like any other POTUS.


I really highly recommend you look at one of the leaked rundowns of what his average work day looks like, it's... Disheartening


> 2nd part: And NHK would love you to believe the same thing about them. Get real. Even if every single thing said/reported were 100% true, it's still biased when you don't report everything from all sides. Omission is the same as lying. Deception, at the very least.


Jesus fuck did you just compare NPR to North Korea state TV?


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Ah, see that's where we were having some communication issues. You want to know how I personally feeeeeeeel about it? Sure, I don't like it. I understand they're not violent people, if they're bringing kids with them then they're probably doing so to obtain a better life for them, etc. I get all that. It's illegal and they have no right to try except by legal processes, but I get it. But the other side I was considering is how this works in criminal law. If the government is going to follow the law as-written (and Trump's EO doesn't really change it, it just end-runs it) then the kids can't be kept in criminal detention with the adults who are being prosecuted. I can't think of any legal reason to carve an exception for this particular type of incarcerated person vs. others incarcerated for other crimes. It's not a wise precedent.


I'll rephrase the question. If you had unilateral power over the situation, would you allow children to be separated from their parents when crossing the border?


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## urherenow (Jun 22, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Jesus fuck did you just compare NPR to North Korea state TV?


LOL, NHK (Nippon Housou Kyokai) is the government sponsored channel in Japan. Every household that has a TV or a device capable of displaying tv channels in any way is obligated to pay a monthly fee, whether you want to watch it or not. It is strictly news and politics, yet omits a bunch...


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## Joe88 (Jun 22, 2018)

urherenow said:


> LOL, NHK (Nippon Housou Kyokai) is the government sponsored channel in Japan. Every household that has a TV or a device capable of displaying tv channels in any way is obligated to pay a monthly fee, whether you want to watch it or not. It is strictly news and politics, yet omits a bunch...


That reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom
The money funds the BBC


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 22, 2018)

urherenow said:


> LOL, NHK (Nippon Housou Kyokai) is the government sponsored channel in Japan. Every household that has a TV or a device capable of displaying tv channels in any way is obligated to pay a monthly fee, whether you want to watch it or not. It is strictly news and politics, yet omits a bunch...


Aha, I see, thanks for the clarification

Although I guess I'm curious as to what you think is being omitted, and why you think Fox News of all stations is in any way better than whatever you perceive


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## urherenow (Jun 22, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Neither party has ever had a president like Trump before, so that's a moot point.  I'd be saying the same things if GWB or Obama had child internment camps.  Justice applied only to the poorest and weakest among us is no justice at all.


You're clueless. Just like every other liberal, you like to cherry pick your information. The first few "internment camp" memes posted by you idiots around Twitter and Facebook were pics from 2014. IF Obama had them? 

Trump made a POLICY to enforce a law. Who made the law? Oh, that's right, the current LAW as written was under Bill Clinton. You want to be disgusted, be disgusted with the assholes who are bringing the children in the hopes that they won't get arrested. In a large number of cases, there is no blood relation whatsoever. Many of those kids are being used as shields, mules, and some are victims of human trafficking. The whole breastfeeding baby torn from the mother is simply an outright LIE. Says who? The people that actually work there. But the interviewer (Gail something...) just cut the man off when his reply didn't fit her agenda.


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## Xzi (Jun 22, 2018)

urherenow said:


> Trump made a POLICY to enforce a law. Who made the law? Oh, that's right, the current LAW as written was under Bill Clinton. You want to be disgusted, be disgusted with the assholes who are bringing the children in the hopes that they won't get arrested. In a large number of cases, there is no blood relation whatsoever. Many of those kids are being used as shields, mules, and some are victims of human trafficking. The whole breastfeeding baby torn from the mother is simply an outright LIE. Says who? The people that actually work there. But the interviewer (Gail something...) just cut the man off when his reply didn't fit her agenda.


This is deranged.  You have to find some way of dehumanizing these people or deluding yourself into believing that they somehow "deserve it" just to avoid admitting how morally repugnant this situation has been.  Even Trump recognized how bad it was for him politically, which is why it was the first thing he's flipped so fast on.


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## Viri (Jun 22, 2018)

urherenow said:


> never once protest the organization called CPS? How many families are torn apart every year, a majority of which never end in the parents being convicted of child abuse or the like?


Boy, do I know that feel.


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## urherenow (Jun 22, 2018)

Xzi said:


> This is deranged.  You have to find some way of dehumanizing these people or deluding yourself into believing that they somehow "deserve it" just to avoid admitting how morally repugnant this situation has been.  Even Trump recognized how bad it was for him politically, which is why it was the first thing he's flipped so fast on.


You just don't understand how the system works. The adults are getting arrested, and they MUST be arrested. Children do not get arrested. But how do you deal with that? There is no room, money, or workers, to place them in what you would consider a proper foster care. We don't simply "shoo" them back across the border with no adult protection/supervision. In many cases, the adults are tried, documented, and sent back across the border with the children. Sometimes it takes a couple of days. Do you have any clue how many people try this every single day? Bah. Why do I bother? I could type a whole book on this, and you wouldn't understand. But you'll continue to insist that this wasn't being done under Obama, and it's all Trump's fault.


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## Viri (Jun 22, 2018)

hoist20032002 said:


> also, how is trumps lame ass equivalent to hitler? where is the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of deaths from genocide at? c'mon, get real...


I look forward to when Trump makes land claims on Baja California and New Brunswick! 

You Canucks will give us the bird sanctuary and light house!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machias_Seal_Island


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 22, 2018)

urherenow said:


> View attachment 132750
> You're clueless. Just like every other liberal, you like to cherry pick your information. The first few "internment camp" memes posted by you idiots around Twitter and Facebook were pics from 2014. IF Obama had them?
> 
> Trump made a POLICY to enforce a law. Who made the law? Oh, that's right, the current LAW as written was under Bill Clinton. You want to be disgusted, be disgusted with the assholes who are bringing the children in the hopes that they won't get arrested. In a large number of cases, there is no blood relation whatsoever. Many of those kids are being used as shields, mules, and some are victims of human trafficking. The whole breastfeeding baby torn from the mother is simply an outright LIE. Says who? The people that actually work there. But the interviewer (Gail something...) just cut the man off when his reply didn't fit her agenda.


I guess I'm curious about why YOU guys weren't furious about stuff like that happening under Obama, since Republican talk show hosts always looked for any kind of dirt on Obama whatsoever they could find, and it took until now for this to reach the public eye. 

I'll concede that he was not the perfect President and did some rather questionable things, but you also need to understand that he didn't enforce a zero-tolerance policy in which non-violent migrants- even asylum seekers- were locked up, separated from their children, and deported

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



urherenow said:


> You just don't understand how the system works. The adults are getting arrested, and they MUST be arrested.


I'd say it's you that doesn't understand how the system works, because no, they don't. A first-time undocumented border crossing is legally a misdemeanor, not a felony. That's like creating a "zero-tolerance" policy where you lock up people who drive above the speed limits and loiter in front of private property, and then take their kids away and house them in a warehouse with no way for the person to easily re-connect with them if they're released


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## Viri (Jun 22, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I guess I'm curious about why YOU guys weren't furious about stuff like that happening under Obama, since Republican talk show hosts always looked for any kind of dirt on Obama whatsoever they could find, and it took until now for this to reach the public eye.


I actually did. I hated how the GOP treated Obama. I hated how the GOP would deny anything and always went against him, just because he wanted something. Would deny progress, just to spite him.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 23, 2018)

Viri said:


> I actually did. I hated how the GOP treated Obama. I hated how the GOP would deny anything and always went against him, just because he wanted something. Would deny progress, just to spite him.


You "actually did" what?

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, but maybe we're misunderstanding each other lol


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## Viri (Jun 23, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You "actually did" what?
> 
> I think you misunderstood what I was saying, but maybe we're misunderstanding each other lol






TotalInsanity4 said:


> I guess I'm curious about why YOU guys weren't furious about stuff like that happening under Obama


I was furious when that stuff happened under Obama.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 23, 2018)

Viri said:


> I was furious when that stuff happened under Obama.


Oh, I see. I was referring to the images of children in thermal blankets from 2014, though


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## JiveTheTurkey (Jun 23, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> The parallel between Trump and Hitler is even closer now. These detention centers are a clear human rights violation.


I agree. Playstations at the centers are unacceptable. They should be giving them Switches and a couple dozen of 3ds. Hot meals are way to similar to what they served at Auschwitz, it is disgusting.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 23, 2018)

JiveTheTurkey said:


> I agree. Playstations at the centers are unacceptable. They should be giving them Switches and a couple dozen of 3ds. Hot meals are way to similar to what they served at Auschwitz, it is disgusting.


It might surprise you to learn that Auschwitz actually had a swimming pool, and that was a particular positive talking point of how well the Nazis were treating their prisoners (despite the fact that obviously none of the prisoners were allowed to use it, it was strictly for SS officers)

Saying that there are luxuries available in what is effectively a prison does not take away from the fact that it is still, at its core, a prison. Optics are a bitch and can be deceiving, in any time period


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## Xzi (Jun 23, 2018)

urherenow said:


> You just don't understand how the system works. The adults are getting arrested, and they MUST be arrested. Children do not get arrested.


Clearly you don't understand how the system is working right now.  The adults get fast-tracked to deportation while the children are sent to detention centers to be used for political leverage.  ICE sucks at record keeping so odds are the majority of children separated from their families and locked up are never going to see their parents again.  That's why it's moronic to separate families and why Obama and GWB didn't have the same policy, the logistics alone are a nightmare.  

The argument that Obama had the same policy is absurd, he never had to build multiple new detention centers to house immigrant children for an undetermined amount of time.  Only Trump gets to claim credit for the brand new internment camps.

Trump rushed into this with no plan.  Just like he does with everything.  That's why it's turned into another dumpster fire.  That's also why you don't elect reality TV stars to do the work of governance.  Should be common sense, but here we are.  At least there's a strong chance of one or more of Trump's offspring going to jail for crimes relating to the Mueller investigation, so likely some poetic justice to look forward to.


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## brickmii82 (Jun 23, 2018)

I don't see how this action could be morally defensible in any way. Even hardline Republicans are against this enforcement due to the brash nature of it's execution. This(illegal border crossing) is a misdemeanor conviction. It runs along the same lines as disorderly conduct according to penalty guidelines. The GOP could take a hit on this as a whole throughout mid-terms and beyond as a result of this situation.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/p...-separation-policy-border-trump-20180618.html

Even Bill O'Reilly is condemning this......


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## urherenow (Jun 23, 2018)

@Xzi, jesus, you are stupid. Reagan was a movie star, and he is a revered president by many. 
Arnold Schwarzenegger was a movie star, and I assert that he was one of the BEST governors that California has ever seen. Just because the news didn't cover what was going on at the borders during Obama's administration, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Do I have to fish out every meme used against Trump that used pics from OBAMA'S era again? Nevermind. I'm blocking you. You're a fucking idiot.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 23, 2018)

urherenow said:


> @Xzi, jesus, you are stupid. Reagan was a movie star, and he is a revered president by many.
> Arnold Schwarzenegger was a movie star, and I assert that he was one of the BEST governors that California has ever seen. Just because the news didn't cover what was going on at the borders during Obama's administration, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. Do I have to fish out every meme used against Trump that used pics from OBAMA'S era again? Nevermind. I'm blocking you. You're a fucking idiot.


It could be argued actually that Reagan is single-handedly responsible for the major disparity between the wealthy and lower class due to the shrinking middle class right now, so I guess I don't know if I'd say THAT.

And again, you BOTH are correct about Obama's border policy; yes, people were being detained, and many were in inhumane conditions (especially due to the fact that immigration courts are allowed to get away with a lot of shit that would be illegal in criminal courts), but @Xzi is also correct that at the very least, there was no policy that intentionally split families up to use children as leverage to get parents to falsly plead guilty for asylum fraud as the only chance of seeing them again. And I will once again assert that there's no good reason that Obama era stuff is only NOW coming to light, in spite of effectively an 8-year smear campaign that SHOULD have gladly taken any opportunity to use something like this against him. The only conclusion I can come to is that the people running said campaigns took no issue with it then, and are only bringing it up now to justify something that is still objectively worse. Which, in my mind, is absolute deplorable and disgusting

Edit: I also like how you can tell you had to look up how to spell "Schwarzenegger" and had to copy-paste his name in because the font size changed. Not necessarily a good or bad thing, but I found it amusing lol


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## Xzi (Jun 23, 2018)

urherenow said:


> @Xzi, jesus, you are stupid. Reagan was a movie star, and he is a revered president by many.
> Arnold Schwarzenegger was a movie star, and I assert that he was one of the BEST governors that California has ever seen.


Reagan caused a lot of problems that persist in the US to this day, lack of proper mental health treatment being a big one.  Not to mention he had prior political experience before running for president.  Schwarzenegger I have no real comment on because I've never lived in CA, but the general consensus from others seems mixed at best.  Also, reality TV is not the same as movies.  People on reality TV tend to be a lot dumber, to the point where they wouldn't even be able to properly act in movies.



urherenow said:


> Nevermind. I'm blocking you. You're a fucking idiot.


Wow, blocked because you can't handle some criticism of Trump.  The right wing truly are snowflakes now. 

Love the ad hominems sprinkled throughout your posts too, they really drive home the point that you're out of valid arguments.


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## urherenow (Jun 23, 2018)

Never claimed to be good at spelling . If people were being honest, I'd bet that hundreds of people in this forum alone would admit to having  difficulty spelling that name.

And, your "only conclusion" just proves how closed minded you are. The fact is that the news media didn't blast those pictures everywhere in a smear campaign against Obama. If it isn't broadcasted that much, or in that light, then people don't know about it to even begin to complain about it. The main issue I have with this whole thing, is that it's complete hypocrisy! And while you may find the whole situation "deplorable", here is the cold, hard FACT: Our Laws and our constitution apply to U.S. Citizens. These illegal immigrants are breaking the law, and they have no rights. Yet they are being treated better than our own homeless. There simply isn't the resources to put them all up in a Holiday Inn Express 

My wife is not a citizen. I went through the lengthy process of getting her Immigrant VISA. I did it proper. The same way these people should have. So, no. I have no sympathy for them, and I am indeed 100% ok with the situation. I am currently living (until December when I return to Japan) less than 5 minutes from the border. I see the numbers that have to be dealt with, and I have half of a clue what resources are available to deal with it. If they didn't sneak their children in illegally (and again, MOST are not even their children), NONE of this would ever happen. The entirety of liberals acting like Trump is the sole cause and he is the only one that has ever been responsible for this, is what I find deplorable. If Republicans end up with a super-majority after the mid-terms, then prepare to sit back and watch ACTUAL change and reform to happen. If not... then not much is going to change.

Speaking of which... not only do I not blame Trump for this, I don't actually blame Obama or Clinton either. I blame CONGRESS. I'm only here because the focus is and has been solely on Trump. And it's bullshit.

EDIT: And by the way, I've said the same thing during Obama's presidency. There are many things he tried to do, that he couldn't, because he couldn't get congress to work together and get things done. Our system is purposely set up so that it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to be in a dictator-like situation. There is NOTHING that the POTUS can do against the will of a united congress. In the same light, there is not much a POTUS can do WITHOUT at least a super-majority of congress to back him up.


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## Xzi (Jun 24, 2018)

urherenow said:


> Our Laws and our constitution apply to U.S. Citizens. These illegal immigrants are breaking the law, and they have no rights. Yet they are being treated better than our own homeless. There simply isn't the resources to put them all up in a Holiday Inn Express


This is completely missing the point.  If the process of enforcing deportation is efficient, there's no need for long-term detention facilities to be built in the first place.  It's bad enough without forcing taxpayers to foot the bill on something the majority don't agree with.



urherenow said:


> If Republicans end up with a super-majority after the mid-terms, then prepare to sit back and watch ACTUAL change and reform to happen. If not... then not much is going to change.


Delusional.  Republicans will have had complete control for two years at the point of mid-terms.  They've gotten next to nothing accomplished other than corporate welfare handouts.  That's not change or reform, just more of the same oligarchical bullshit.



urherenow said:


> Speaking of which... not only do I not blame Trump for this, I don't actually blame Obama or Clinton either. I blame CONGRESS. I'm only here because the focus is and has been solely on Trump. And it's bullshit.


You blame Congress.  Which has been a majority GOP every time it blocked immigration reform.  Now Trump is at the top of the GOP, and he doesn't bare any responsibility for the fact that this is happening on his watch?  _That's _bullshit.  The GOP (Trump included) can only pass the buck around so much before admitting they simply have no ideas on how to properly govern.  It's all regulatory capture and tearing down essential public services.



urherenow said:


> EDIT: And by the way, I've said the same thing during Obama's presidency. There are many things he tried to do, that he couldn't, because he couldn't get congress to work together and get things done. Our system is purposely set up so that it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to be in a dictator-like situation. There is NOTHING that the POTUS can do against the will of a united congress. In the same light, there is not much a POTUS can do WITHOUT at least a super-majority of congress to back him up.


Trump signed a piece of paper and family separations stopped.  Even if only temporarily.  There are a lot of steps his administration could take toward reform, but nobody in his administration has any insight on how to go about it.  They'd just fuck everything up and have Trump's supporters play the apologists for him again.

Yes I'm aware he can't see my reply, wanted to counter these points anyway.


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## SirNapkin1334 (Jun 24, 2018)

Nah, the asshole sealed the fates of all the people who won’t be moving out of this godforsaken country.


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## Hanafuda (Jun 25, 2018)

SirNapkin1334 said:


> Nah, the asshole sealed the fates of all the people who won’t be moving out of this godforsaken country.




I'm curious .. have you ever lived for an extended period (at least a year) in any other country, and if you did so were you gainfully employed there and supporting yourself, or were you just a partying student or someone's dependent? I'm just asking because it seems a lot of Americans have strong opinions about their own country without any basis of comparison to how people live, think, and act elsewhere.




Xzi said:


> immigration reform



What does "immigration reform" entail to you, Xzi? What reforms would be desirable? What would you concede in order to get those reforms?


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## SirNapkin1334 (Jun 25, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I'm curious .. have you ever lived for an extended period (at least a year) in any other country, and if you did so were you gainfully employed there and supporting yourself, or were you just a partying student or someone's dependent? I'm just asking because it seems a lot of Americans have strong opinions about their own country without any basis of comparison to how people live, think, and act elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. I went to Germany for a week to meet family though.


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## WeedZ (Jun 26, 2018)

Political debates have gotten so far left vs right that people don't follow logic anymore.

"I agree with how conservatives are handling current immigration policy, but don't tell me how wrong it is because it was the liberals that put the policy in place"

Fuckin' what?


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## Xzi (Jun 26, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> What does "immigration reform" entail to you, Xzi? What reforms would be desirable? What would you concede in order to get those reforms?


The most obvious thing our immigration system is missing is a path to citizenship for those who contribute to society.  I'm not sure there really needs to be a lot of concessions to accomplish this, because it's a net financial gain for the government which collects taxes from migrant labor but doesn't afford them any public benefits.  This could remain the standard for a probationary period of 5-10 years, whatever is deemed a reasonable amount of time without committing a crime, and then individuals could take a citizenship test.

Unfortunately this is very unlikely to happen.  I believe GWB even suggested something similar, which was quickly struck down by GOP leadership.  Businesses (including Trump's) are addicted to cheap migrant labor, and they know it's easy to keep workers in line by threat of deportation.  There's simply no financial benefit for businesses to treat these workers with basic human decency, so they don't.



WeedZ said:


> Political debates have gotten so far left vs right that people don't follow logic anymore.
> 
> "I agree with how conservatives are handling current immigration policy, but don't tell me how wrong it is because it was the liberals that put the policy in place"
> 
> Fuckin' what?


Trump has been blaming Democrats for anything and everything he's done which can be viewed in a negative light.  So it's not at all surprising to see his supporters parrot this deflection tactic.  This makes having a discussion with modern Republicans really hard, and it makes having an honest discussion impossible.  They control all three branches of government, yet I'm supposed to believe they're powerless against the "Deep State," which also happens to be mostly Trump appointees.

*G*aslight
*O*bstruct
*P*roject


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## Hanafuda (Jun 26, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The most obvious thing our immigration system is missing is a path to citizenship for those who contribute to society.  I'm not sure there really needs to be a lot of concessions to accomplish this, because it's a net financial gain for the government which collects taxes from migrant labor but doesn't afford them any public benefits.  This could remain the standard for a probationary period of 5-10 years, whatever is deemed a reasonable amount of time without committing a crime, and then individuals could take a citizenship test.
> 
> Unfortunately this is very unlikely to happen.  I believe GWB even suggested something similar, which was quickly struck down by GOP leadership.  Businesses (including Trump's) are addicted to cheap migrant labor, and they know it's easy to keep workers in line by threat of deportation.  There's simply no financial benefit for businesses to treat these workers with basic human decency, so they don't.





And would you support funding and building the border wall and increased border patrol security to man it, if that path to citizenship plan were adopted? Because amnesty without a secure border would just worsen the situation dramatically. And what of those who do not avail themselves of the path to citizenship, or fuck it up with a criminal conviction? Are there any you would say don't qualify for the program from the start, i.e. convicted felons, confirmed gang members?

You said GWB suggested something similar. So did Trump, back in January. It was shot down as unacceptable by both sides.

I do think something will happen to address the issue, at least I hope so. But it can't just be a blanket amnesty without a secured border.


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## Xzi (Jun 26, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> And would you support funding and building the border wall and increased border patrol security to man it, if that path to citizenship plan were adopted? Because amnesty without a secure border would just worsen the situation dramatically. And what of those who do not avail themselves of the path to citizenship, or fuck it up with a criminal conviction? Are there any you would say don't qualify for the program from the start, i.e. convicted felons, confirmed gang members?


A border wall is a waste of taxpayer money, plain and simple.  It wouldn't stop illegal immigration, and it would just slowly crumble/be torn down over a decade or so.  Not to mention it would require the use of Eminent Domain to seize a lot of US citizens' property in order to complete.  I don't have an issue with securing the border through more effective, efficient means though.

Of course convicted criminals would be denied a path to citizenship, and deported as normal if they were caught.  Should probably depend on the severity of the conviction though, nobody should be denied for jaywalking.  Under the current system, it's just assumed that they're all criminals, including asylum seekers.



Hanafuda said:


> You said GWB suggested something similar. So did Trump, back in January. It was shot down as unacceptable by both sides.


I'd have to review Trump's proposal, assuming this wasn't just something he mentioned once and never intended to move on.  Happens often with Trump, like when he promised universal healthcare.



Hanafuda said:


> I do think something will happen to address the issue, at least I hope so. But it can't just be a blanket amnesty without a secured border.


The border "crisis" is largely manufactured as political red meat for the Republican base.  Since around 2008 we've had more net immigration _leaving_ America for Mexico than coming in.  So while I have no issue with doing a better job of securing the border, I don't see this as the emergency situation a lot of the right wing sees it as.



> There are no perfect statistics when it comes to illegal immigration — it’s inherently impossible to track accurately. But U.S. and Mexican government data analyzed by the Pew Research Center shows the immigration trend reversed in the last decade.
> 
> The estimated number of Mexicans in the United States illegally rose steadily for many years, from 2.9 million in 1995 to a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. But the number began dropping in 2008 and has fallen more since, reaching 5.8 million in 2014, the latest year for which Pew analyzed data.
> 
> ...



http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...periencing-net-outflow-illegal-undocumented-/


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## brickmii82 (Jun 26, 2018)

I find it funny that Reagan is often used as an example of shining effective GOP governance yet he granted amnesty for how many immigrants? Being serious, idk the number but it was a bigly number. The DNC isn’t really that much better though. President Obama could've handled this Immigration reform early in his presidency but chose other legislation as a priority which did not include jailing all of the corrupt bankers and investment brokers that robbed taxpayers for trillions. And while Russians swayed the election, with the stonewalling of Bernie, the DNC in fact, rigged the election. He should’ve won the nomination. #Bernieorbust


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## Xzi (Jun 26, 2018)

brickmii82 said:


> President Obama could've handled this Immigration reform early in his presidency


Maybe, but forcing anything through with the support of only Democrats would've resulted in repeal at some point anyway.  Republicans had started completely stonewalling even their own party on this issue well before Obama's presidency.  It's part of the Southern Strategy.


----------

