# [Poll]Do you think Mexico will pay for the wall?



## Taleweaver (Jan 26, 2017)

Okay...guys. I normally don't make political polls, but this is getting ridiculous on a new degree...

As probably many others, I heard about Donald's idea of building a wall with Mexico and making Mexico pay for it. I thought this was just one of those retarded things would-be elected presidents said to appeal to...erm...the less than bright audience of voters. The news barely bothered to get a reaction from Mexico, and honestly: why should they?

Later, Trump repeated that statement when he was the sole republican candidate left. In fact, he had a meeting with the Mexican president (Enrique Peña) discussing this. This sparked my interest a bit, but that was until it was revealed that "the cost wasn't discussed at this time". But hey: at least Mexico's stance was clear. At least to the non-US* people: they weren't going to pay for the wall. Which is obviously only logical: you won't pay for your neighbor's wall either when he feels like building one next to your garden. And this is on a much, MUCH larger scale.

For some reason, this "little detail" of Mexico not paying didn't change Trump's promise. This didn't really bother me (I mean...if his voters are dumb enough to believe in fairy tales, they deserve a bunch of broken promises). But for some reason, he still thinks he can go through with this project while being the president. Okay, he added an extra word in his rhetoric, but it's nothing less of a "little detail": from now on, Mexico will pay BACK the wall. Meaning: at least initially every brick gets built with American tax dollars.


So...as I'm not American and not a fan of that blondy, my thoughts on this are pretty clear. What I'm curious about, though, is what others think. More precisely: what Americans think about the cost of that thing (no, you don't have to be old enough to vote).

I understand this can derail in a matter on the usefulness of the wall. However, this thread fulfills that goal pretty decently.

Thanks for your time to vote... 





*I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but right before the 2nd Gulf war, literally the only people I knew who believed in the existence of weapons of mass destruction were American. Hence this poll: I wanna know if US residents have a different idea on this situation than everyone else.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 26, 2017)

The problem with that lies with a concept I learned about in elementary school. It's called "sovereignty". 

Basically, each government with legitimate, enforceable authority over its country decides what it wants to do. 

For example: Trump and Congress both decide to remove funds from the UN. Because they get to decide where the US's money goes, they can do that according to sovereignty. 

On the other hand: Trump deciding Mexico's paying for the wall. Trump is, unfortunately, not in charge of Mexico. Unless he convinces Mexico to pay for the wall (he won't), then they won't, according to sovereignty.


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## lordkaos (Jan 26, 2017)

I think if the NAFTA renegotiation gets through, that annoying orange will say something like "see?, I sure made them pay for that wall"


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## Alex4U (Jan 26, 2017)

Nah, and if we don't pay the wall,* that modafuka will want war*.
Hell yeah, a real-life shooter game.


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 26, 2017)

This is what I think will happen. The wall will end up costing tens of billions of dollars, and the taxpayers will pay for every penny. Mexico will refuse to reimburse the US. Trump will use some extremely weak definition of "pay" like renegotiating a trade agreement or instituting a tariff that makes his followers happy. Mexico will respond in kind. Someone (maybe China) will step in to fill the trade vacuum left by the US.


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## endoverend (Jan 26, 2017)

Hahahahahahhahahahaah no


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## Chronomaly (Jan 26, 2017)

Honestly doubt they'll even consider the proposal of a wall. Its mexico.
And Mexicans crossing illegally would just find another way around.


*meanwhile in our northern borders to canada*


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## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

It's pretty stupid from Trump's part to expect a foreign country to pay for something HE wants to do for HIS country.
I mean, it's like if Mexico's next president were to propose a new form of "national security" thing and expect the US to pay for it.

Where's the reasoning in that?
Why should Mexico do such a thing?
I hate to say it, but EPN (Mexico's president) did the right thing here (one of the few right things he has done in his presidency so far).
Mexico's economy is pretty bad to add a shit ton of expenses for just a spoiled old man's stupid idea.


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## RevPokemon (Jan 26, 2017)

Trump: Mexico is a poor depressing sh%thole
Also Trump: They can pay for it


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## EmanueleBGN (Jan 26, 2017)

The wall exists from 1994, build by Bill CLINTON!
Renforced in 2006 with the votes of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obanana!


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## bkifft (Jan 26, 2017)

Hmm. One of those two countries got nukes and a president who repeatedly asked why they don't use them...

Fallout 5 anyone?


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## DarkCoffe64 (Jan 26, 2017)

Wait, I think I heard from the news that Trump was gonna pay himself for the wall...? Or maybe I've heard wrong. Dunno.
Anyway, this is what I believe will happen: Trump will start building that wall, then will realize it will cost waay too much to actually do it, and abandon ship.
The parts of the wall that will be actually build, will be turned by the mexican into a "Monument of Stupidity".


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Haha Mexico will pay for that wall or Trump is going to tear NAFTA up in their faces while eating a burrito! Mexico will plummet without the NAFTA agreement, anyone thinking China will pick up the immense market the US offers them is silly, the cost of trading at that distance is far is too much for Mexico to get a decent profit.

No more sending cars and clothes across the border, and pretty soon no more sending Paco across the border either!

BTW, pretty proud of America's youth: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/11/10/middle-schoolers-build-that-wall-video-lead.cnn

Build the wall! Build the wall! Build the wall! 

MAGA'd 2017


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## lexarvn (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Mexico will plummet without the NAFTA agreement


Mexico will also plummet if they try to pay for the wall since it would be prohibitively expensive. It's a lose-lose situation for Mexico. I don't think people realize just how big that border is and why no one can afford to pay for it, let alone Mexico.


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## duffmmann (Jan 26, 2017)

Nope, if this thing goes through, we're all gonna have to foot the bill with promise that Mexico will eventually pay (that promise not actually coming from Mexico mind you), but they wont.  I truly can't get over what a stupid idea the whole wall is.  I'm genuinely curious if anyone not working a high school job like fast food cook has felt that they lost their job to illegal Mexican immigrants.  Working in graphic design I've never personally felt threatened of losing my job by immigrants.  So this need to pay a shit ton of money and build a wall is entirely lost on me.


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 26, 2017)

People are losing their jobs for a variety of reasons such as advancements in automation, clean energy, and general technology. When your are angry you want someone to blame. You don't get satisfaction from screaming at a robot. Mexico is a good scapegoat. Even if we reduced illegal immigration to zero I doubt we'll see gains in coal, automotive, or general employment.

And, as usual, the people with the least to spare will be the ones hit hardest by higher consumer prices.


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

lexarvn said:


> Mexico will also plummet if they try to pay for the wall since it would be prohibitively expensive. It's a lose-lose situation for Mexico. I don't think people realize just how big that border is and why no one can afford to pay for it, let alone Mexico.



LOL, NAFTA alone costs the US a deficit upwards of $50 million US. You really think Paco Peña is willing to part with that over a $20 million dollar wall?

I for one hope they try not to, just to watch Trump tear up NAFTA and impose huge tariffs on Mexican products.  He for once is going to structure trade deals in our favor, no more of this whimsy we are the moral compass of the globe. Screw it, Mexico doesn't respect us with the lack of regard for illegal immigration, so neither should we. When my dog goes and takes a dump in somebody elses yard, I clean up, it's time for the federales states of Mexico to clean up their mess too!



Blood Fetish said:


> People are losing their jobs for a variety of reasons such as advancements in automation, clean energy, and general technology. When your are angry you want someone to blame. You don't get satisfaction from screaming at a robot. Mexico is a good scapegoat. Even if we reduced illegal immigration to zero I doubt we'll see gains in coal, automotive, or general employment.
> 
> And, as usual, the people with the least to spare will be the ones hit hardest by higher consumer prices.



LOL let's look at some actual facts. Our trade deficit with Mexico is huge:
http://www.cfr.org/trade/naftas-economic-impact/p15790

Time to put an end to this BS and make Mexico pay for the products they export or to ship those jobs right back to us. Either way it's a win win.

Also we need to get that oil in Iraq.


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## NightScript (Jan 26, 2017)

I personally think that Mexico won't pay for the wall.

Somehow, this election reminds me of Super Trump 64, a ROM hack of Super Mario 64...


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL, NAFTA alone costs the US a deficit upwards of $50 million US. You really think Paco Peña is willing to part with that over a $20 million dollar wall?


Your estimate is off by several orders of magnitude.


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## RevPokemon (Jan 26, 2017)

Blood Fetish said:


> Your estimate is off by several orders of magnitude.


well even if he was right (although he is wrong) than would it really be Mexico's responsibility when WE signed into it?


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## matthi321 (Jan 26, 2017)

no why would they do that


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blood Fetish said:


> Your estimate is off by several orders of magnitude.



edit: oh you mean the wall, my bad 20 billion

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RevPokemon said:


> well even if he was right (although he is wrong) than would it really be Mexico's responsibility when WE signed into it?



Edit: 20 billion


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 26, 2017)

You are being pretty condescending. We know what math is and what a source is. Do you treat people like this in "real life" too?


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blood Fetish said:


> You are being pretty condescending. We know what math is and what a source is. Do you treat people like this in "real life" too?



Only when they provide alternative facts lol


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 26, 2017)

And now you are calling me a liar?


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Blood Fetish said:


> And now you are calling me a liar?



No. It was a joke lol.

Bottom line NAFTA is a big deficit, cutting that in half will more than cover the wall to prevent the compadres from jumping a fence.


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## WhySayingMyName (Jan 26, 2017)

I'm not from US or whatever but remember Trump is a businessman afterall, pretty sure that he'd win


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## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> No. It was a joke lol.
> 
> Bottom line NAFTA is a big deficit, cutting that in half will more than cover the wall to prevent the compadres from jumping a fence.


You do realize that even with a Wall that won't stop illegal immigration, right?
I mean, look at this:



Spoiler












That's the actual fence which is at the border at the moment.
It's more than 3m tall, I don't see how a Wall would make up for the fence which supposedly mexicans "jump" over.
Illegal immigration is not done by jumping the fence, it done by other meaning, being it tunnels or crossing over harsh environment which is not protected by the fence. The Wall will do jackshit to immigration, I can guarantee you that.


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> No. It was a joke lol.
> 
> Bottom line NAFTA is a big deficit, cutting that in half will more than cover the wall to prevent the compadres from jumping a fence.


Sounds like a great argument against NAFTA, but I fail to see what it has to do with Trump's wall.


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## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

I've heard that your president is dumber than ours... Something i truly believed impossible.

I also heard that, the first "Payment" will be courtesy of texas... so... giddy up taxes!

To be honest, in México, we don't even pay for our own health (that's becasue we have a FUCKING DISGUSTING PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM) 
So, even if your beloved president says:
"México will pay for it, if not, their fired"
And even if my president says:
"Yes yes, I'm your bitch, spank me harder, spank me harder, Ahh!"
Us, as Méxican citizens pretty much WONT allow it.
More likely, we'll stop paying our taxes, and that's something we have done before.

So... it's a hard vision here.

In one hand you have us, the mexican citizens that always "fights back" against everything (I don't like to flow with the current, so *I'll be sit tight in my home laughing at everyone*)
And in the other hand you have the dumb american racists that will do whatever they can to stop "us-the mexicans" to cross your beloved border, even if that means that they'll pay more taxes in order to accomplish the caprices of your president.

Now... how does is feel to have a dumber president than Bush? 
We're used to it... but you, oh, you're just starting.

(I don't take this very serious, pretty much nothing will happen)

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ShadowOne333 said:


> You do realize that even with a Wall that won't stop illegal immigration, right?
> I mean, look at this:
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe if it was an electrical fence...
Te imaginas si lo fuera?
The quantity of cables that would fit there just to steal the electrical energy?
Free energy!


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## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> Maybe if it was an electrical fence...
> Te imaginas si lo fuera?
> The quantity of cables that would fit there just to steal the electrical energy?
> Free energy!


Estaria de poca haha
I can already see people putting their cables hanging from the fence just to grab some free energy xD


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## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Will Mexico hand us a check for the wall? Hell no! Will Mexico pay for the wall? A distinct possibility. 
One way of collecting the money from Mexico would be to impose a tariff. That's not ideal, but it's definitely plausible. The mexican peso is now at an all-time low, and it's directly correlated to Donald Trump's victory. Just imagine the amount of damage Trump could do to the Mexican economy if he wanted.
Another way he could accomplish the task would be a "border-crossing fee". This idea is much more civil, it's our wall and if you use it, you pay to use it. Though, it would take significantly more time to collect enough to pay for the wall this way.
Or, if Trump wanted to be particularly nasty, he could freeze the ability of Mexicans working here to send money back to their families in Mexico. an excerpt from the Washington Post, "In the memo, Trump said he would threaten to change a rule under the USA Patriot Act antiterrorism law to cut off a portion of the funds sent to Mexico through money transfers, commonly known as remittances. The threat would be withdrawn if Mexico made “a one-time payment of $5-10 billion” to pay for the border wall, he wrote."
And here's a link to an article explaing one way of making Meixco pay for the wall:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...3375f271c9c_story.html?utm_term=.b4fc54b45975

And one, final quote for those too lazy to follow the k=link and read the article:

Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto told an assembly of top diplomats last week that “Mexico of course will not pay” for Donald Trump’s wall. His predecessor, former president Vicente Fox, put it more bluntly in a tweet storm last week, declaring: “TRUMP, when will you understand that I am not paying for that [f----n] wall.”

They are both wrong. Trump absolutely can make Mexico pay. And the answer lies in a provision of the corporate tax-reform plan House Republicans are planning to take up after Trump’s inauguration — the so-called “border adjustment.”


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

i think mexico will not pay the wall, and this wall will not even be built. it usless, money wasted for nothing.
but.... if the wall is built, we have the greate wall of china, and now we have the great wall of united states XD


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## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> i think mexico will not pay the wall, and this wall will not even be built. it usless, money wasted for nothing.
> but.... if the wall is built, we have the greate wall of china, and now we have the great wall of united states XD


The Great Wall of Mexico* since Trump stupidly wants us to build it, we make it, we call it


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## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

*Even if Trump makes something against México (because, as he says, México reaches from the US border to La Patagonia Argentina), that'll be the stupidest movement ever.
I say this because, in TLCAN *(as far as the story of my country goes) *If USA decides to breake that agreement, pretty much of the south part of USA will regain Mexican territory/ownership... thing.*
*In the Tratado de Guadalupe Hidalgo, it is stated that Santana GAVE Texas, California, Los angeles, etc. AS LONG AS THE US shares a bridge with México to export and import any product (TLCAN)*

So, I truly hope Trump breakes that TLC...

​
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Remember... Mexicans can do tunnels too.... just sayin'


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## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> *If USA decides to breake that agreement, pretty much of the south part of USA will regain Mexican territory/ownership... thing.*'



You're telling me that if we (the US people) breaks this agreement part of OUR country will "revert" to Mexican territory?

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I find it very difficult to believe the Trump would let that fly.


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> The Great Wall of Mexico* since Trump stupidly wants us to build it, we make it, we call it


trump will not build any wall its just an stupid idea


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> You do realize that even with a Wall that won't stop illegal immigration, right?
> I mean, look at this:
> 
> 
> ...



LOL that fence is cute, but soon we will have this:






Paco cannot jump this.



Blood Fetish said:


> Sounds like a great argument against NAFTA, but I fail to see what it has to do with Trump's wall.



I think he will leverage this to get Mexico to cover up front, if not, then Mexico will suffer as Trump puts the squeeze on the NAFTA agreement and the jobs flood out of Mexico and back to America .



Gizametalman said:


> I've heard that your president is dumber than ours... Something i truly believed impossible.
> 
> I also heard that, the first "Payment" will be courtesy of texas... so... giddy up taxes!
> 
> ...



I'm sorry your country sucks, but that doesn't give Mexicans the right to cross into my country. Sorry that's not racist, I just like to follow the laws. That's what we do here in America.


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## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> You're telling me that if we (the US people) breaks this agreement part of OUR country will "revert" to Mexican territory?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> I find it very difficult to believe the Trump would let that fly.


As far as the agreement goes... yep.

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el_gonz87 said:


> LOL that fence is cute, but soon we will have this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You do realize that MANY african immigrants uses MY country to reach YOUR country and that's not only "mexicans" who want's to step a foot in your territory?


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> *Even if Trump makes something against México (because, as he says, México reaches from the US border to La Patagonia Argentina), that'll be the stupidest movement ever.
> I say this because, in TLCAN *(as far as the story of my country goes) *If USA decides to breake that agreement, pretty much of the south part of USA will regain Mexican territory/ownership... thing.
> In the Tratado de Guadalupe Hidalgo, it is stated that Santana GAVE Texas, California, Los angeles, etc. AS LONG AS THE US shares a bridge with México to export and import any product (TLCAN)*
> 
> ...



LOL good luck taking back an inch of territory with that puny army of federales!


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## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> As far as the agreement goes... yep.


Whether I agree with him or not is irrelevant on this, but Trump is not going to surrender jacksquat to the Mexican government. Much less Texas or California...


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## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL good luck taking back an inch of territory with that puny army of federales!




YOU DO REALIZE THAT WE DO HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE ARMY? and not just "federales"?
God dammit...


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## duffmmann (Jan 26, 2017)

I just can't get past the blatant hypocrisy of the very idea of the wall.  If you live in America, chances are you and I are all here because of our ancestors immigrating to this land (unless you're native American).  Like, immigration is bad, except when we did it a few hundred years ago, that was great!  And I'm sure the argument against the hypocrisy would be, "But it's _different!_"  Justify it all you want, I just think it's incredibly hypocritical.


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## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Though I don't think I'd mind losing California so much...


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> YOU DO REALIZE THAT WE DO HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE ARMY? and not just "federales"?
> God dammit...



Sorry they look like federales to me. Oh well, Mexico taking land from the US???






HAHAHAHAHA

*California is our country, not yours!*


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## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

It's not like I'm excited to have a part of your respectable, and highly interesting culture... but it'll be funny if THOSE who wanted to reach the "american dream" suddenly became Mexican. 

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el_gonz87 said:


> Sorry they look like federales to me. Oh well, Mexico taking land from the US???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CALIFORNIA IS A STATE, NOT A COUNTRY YOU IDIOT.


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

trump calls me and my country from LATIN PIGS, he is modafoca XD
this idea of "wall" will not work...
and if i cant buy my switch because of some old ugly american president.... i cannot do nothing XD


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## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> It's not like I'm excited to have a part of your respectable, and highly interesting culture... but it'll be funny if THOSE who wanted to reach the "american dream" suddenly became Mexican.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


You mean Country, not county, YOU IDIOT


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

duffmmann said:


> I just can't get past the blatant hypocrisy of the very idea of the wall.  If you live in America, chances are you and I are all here because of our ancestors immigrating to this land (unless you're native American).  Like, immigration is bad, except when we did it a few hundred years ago, that was great!  And I'm sure the argument against the hypocrisy would be, "But it's _different!_"  Justify it all you want, I just think it's incredibly hypocritical.



Nobody is against legal immigration.



Gizametalman said:


> It's not like I'm excited to have a part of your respectable, and highly interesting culture... but it'll be funny if THOSE who wanted to reach the "american dream" suddenly became Mexican.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



It's part of my country! No need to get sensitive here compadres! 

Mexican dream???? LOL. Sounds like a nice horror film!


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## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> You mean Country, not county, YOU IDIOT


Fixed my typo.
There I'm smarter than you.


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

@el_gonz87 and @Tigroid looks like kids


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> trump calls me and my country from LATIN PIGS, he is modafoca XD
> this idea of "wall" will not work...
> and if i cant buy my switch because of some old ugly american president.... i cannot do nothing XD



Can I get the source on the Trump quote?

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BlueFox gui said:


> @el_gonz87 and @Tigroid looks like kids



Hahaha I'm not the one who was hiding under my bed under fear of A9LH installation. LOL I basically held your hand through it all, and put up with some silly questions!


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## duffmmann (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Nobody is against legal immigration.
> 
> It's part of my country! No need to get sensitive here compadres!
> 
> Mexican dream???? LOL. Sounds like a nice horror film!



Legal or not, what our ancestors did to the Native Americans and their land is far from noble.  But hey, raping, killing, and stealing the land was OK, and we should look to Columbus as a hero because now we're all here today.


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

duffmmann said:


> Legal or not, what our ancestors did to that Native Americans and their land is far from noble.  But hey, raping, killing, and stealing the land was OK, and we should look to Columbus as a hero because now we're all here today.



I have no control over that. My position is people should always immigrate legally period. This isn't the 1400s LOL


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## duffmmann (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> I have no control over that. My position is people should immigrate legally period. This isn't the 1400s LOL



So you're OK with the setup, but no more of it today, got it.


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## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

duffmmann said:


> Legal or not, what our ancestors did to the Native Americans and their land is far from noble.  But hey, raping, killing, and stealing the land was OK, and we should look to Columbus as a hero because now we're all here today.


Last I checked, I never killed any native Americans.


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> Fixed my typo.
> There I'm smarter than you.



Sorry if this offends you Paco, but illegal immigration needs and will stop. Sanctuary cities are over, secure border. People will just have to learn to follow rules like we do here in America.



duffmmann said:


> So you're OK with the setup, but no more of it today, got it.



I don't think two wrongs make a right, if that's what you mean LOL.


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## duffmmann (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> Last I checked, I never killed any native Americans.



But you're ok with living here despite what your ancestors did.  I mean we brought in the bad people, the ones who rape and kill.  Yet today we all seem to be ok.

I'm just saying I find it all so hypocrtical, that's all, and I really can't get past that.


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## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

Hey! How did you knew my name is Paco?
That's not fair!
I'm arguing with the smartest american out there... I'm out of here, I have no chance against that level of intelligence.
And your arguments are soooo logical, like... Federales and Paco's here and there...
I truly have no chance against you.


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## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Freakin liberals are always going off about crap that happened x amount of years ago, and trying to hold people of today accountable. I NEVER owned a slave, NEVER killed, raped, beat, etc. a Native American, NEVER supported geoncide, or ANYTHING LIKE IT. STOP HOLDING ME AND MY FRIENDS/FAMILY/PARTY  ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT *OUR *ANCESTORS MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAD A HAND IN!


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> Hey! How did you knew my name is Paco?
> That's not fair!
> I'm arguing with the smartest american out there... I'm out of here, I have no chance against that level of intelligence.
> And your arguments are soooo logical, like... Federales and Paco's here and there...
> I truly have no chance against you.



LOL it's just a nickname, why so sensitive??? Do you have illegal relatives? I'm sorry if you do.

Following laws is not illogical here in America, can't speak for Mexico lol.

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duffmmann said:


> But you're ok with living here despite what your ancestors did.  I mean we brought in the bad people, the ones who rape and kill.  Yet today we all seem to be ok.
> 
> I'm just saying I find it all so hypocrtical, that's all, and I really can't get past that.



LOL do you know my ancestors? Tell them raping is illegal too lol.


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## duffmmann (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> Freakin liberals are always going off about crap that happened x amount of years ago, and trying to hold people of today accountable. I NEVER owned a slave, NEVER killed, raped, beat, etc. a Native American, NEVER supported geoncide, or ANYTHING LIKE IT. STOP HOLDING ME AND MY FRIENDS/FAMILY/PARTY  ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT *OUR *ANCESTORS MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAD A HAND IN!



I'm not holding anyone accountable.  I'm pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of what our nation was founded on and what we're trying to do today.


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Can I get the source on the Trump quote?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


i searched for "what trump thinks of brazil" because i don't want to be harmed to buy consoles or start some WAR xD and i found this.

https://pensabrasil.com/noticia-esp...hama-brasileiros-de-porcos-latinos-veja-aqui/

http://plus55.com/brazil-politics/news/2016/10/trump-about-brazil

Or say that trump did not offend Brazil
People say it's a rumor but I do not doubt anything coming from Trump.


----------



## insidexdeath (Jan 26, 2017)

America would be living in a dream if they think a country with a bad economy such as Mexico would pay for a wall, that will also negatively impact their economy.

Trump needs to think of a different strategy that is far more realistic to block a flow of illegal immigrants.


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL it's just a nickname, why so sensitive??? Do you have illegal relatives? I'm sorry if you do.
> 
> Following laws is not illogical here in America, can't speak for Mexico lol.
> 
> ...







*I can see now why Trump won the elections.*


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> View attachment 76303
> 
> I can see now why Trump won the elections.



Hahahaha so salty. I can see now why Mexicans illegally cross into America!






@Gizametalman LOOOOOOOL


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Hypocrisy is when Mexico plans a wall on its southern border to keep out illegals, but wants to pick a fight with us when we do the same for the same reason.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

insidexdeath said:


> America would be living in a dream if they think a country with a bad economy such as Mexico would pay for a wall, that will also negatively impact their economy.
> 
> Trump needs to think of a different strategy that is far more realistic to block a flow of illegal immigrants.



1) Rip up NAFTA
2) Put a new trade deal in our favor with tariffs
3) Bring back jobs to US
4) ???
5) Profit


----------



## duffmmann (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> Hypocrisy is when Mexico plans a wall on its southern border to keep out illegals, but wants to pick a fight with us when we do the same for the same reason.



That is also hypocritical, sure, but that doesn't make what I've been talking about not hypocritical.


----------



## Rockhoundhigh (Jan 26, 2017)

Not directly, no. But the circumstances can change if Trump makes good on his remittance policy at least for a short while. Taxing remittances through legal channels can offset some of the cost but there are two problems with this approach. One, if anyone remembers the Secure Fence Act this is going to cost an obscene amount of money to accomplish and they'll be a number of legal hurdles to clear. Even 35% of remittance payments cannot put a dent in that. Two, I don't think long term that even a proposed remittance tax will have a significant effect because people will simply start operating through grey market channels.

Some people speculate that this proposed remittance tax can put public pressure on Nieto to concede some form of payment but the simple fact is Mexico's government has ever rarely been popular and more importantly they don't have the money waste on building someone else's wall. Likewise, if he agrees they'll also be hell to pay though the government's more authoritarian tendencies might quell dissension anyways.

It's a lose-lose and I can tell you from experience on the border adding a wall is unlikely to accomplish much relative to its "returns". Enforcement post-911 on the border is already pretty strict. Likewise, legal immigration is a mess and has been for years. Adding more complications to interstate relations is not going to benefit anyone overall besides comforting a handful of people with a minimal understanding of the situation. People who ask for a wall are looking at the issue way too simply. There are a lot of factors to consider here.


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> 1) Rip up NAFTA
> 2) Put a new trade deal in our favor with tariffs
> 3) Bring back jobs to US
> 4) ???
> 5) Profit


Trump's already working on it. He signed an executive order Monday to re-negotiate NAFTA in our favor, he's already saved thousands of jobs, and got several companies to invest here in the US which will add more jobs.


----------



## insidexdeath (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> 1) Rip up NAFTA
> 2) Put a new trade deal in our favor with tariffs
> 3) Bring back jobs to US
> 4) ???
> 5) Profit


The US, and Mexico would both lose if that happens though, as things would escalate. Losing Mexico as an ally does not really play in America's favour. However, I understand the frustration of illegal immigration, which does need to stop, but Trump isn't only planning to just block illegal immigration, he's also making legal immigration almost impossible.

So this whole wall being built, is just an unrealistic approach, and Mexico would definitely not pay for this.


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

If Trump builds the wall and makes _legal _immigration impossible, we can loosen laws and regulations to help the legals get here. Right now our main priority is to stop the flow of illegals. And we'd rather stop everyone and loosen up later rather than slowly tighten regulations until it's pretty much *mostly* legals getting through.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

insidexdeath said:


> The US, and Mexico would both lose if that happens though, as things would escalate. Losing Mexico as an ally does not really play in America's favour. However, I understand the frustration of illegal immigration, which does need to stop, but Trump isn't only planning to just block illegal immigration, he's also making legal immigration almost impossible.
> 
> So this whole wall being built, is just an unrealistic approach, and Mexico would definitely not pay for this.



Loosing Mexico as an ally would hurt? No!

1) We have a trade deficit with Mexico, which is about to be sorted by Trump
2) Mexico is never part of a coalition
3) We have a much bigger army than Mexico, no offense but I wouldn't be scared of the federales

I haven't seen anything on legal immigration becoming harder. 

We're in a world where too much PC has let immigration run amok. Trump + Brexit is the peoples response!


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

It's not that I dislike Mexicans or Africans or any other race, but if you're willing to break laws to get here, then you've already proven your willingness to break laws.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> It's not that I dislike Mexicans or Africans or any other race, but if you're willing to break laws to get here, then you've already proven your willingness to break laws.



^ This. Is it so hard to respect laws of the country you wish to live in? LOL


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

And immigration is wrong because... ???


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> It's not that I dislike Mexicans or Africans or any other race.


OOOOHH it because trump is racist?
trump is racist?
i really don't know


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> And immigration is wrong because... ???


El que es wey por gusto, hasta la coyunta lame.

Seriously? Arguing with the *average* american?


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> OOOOHH it because trump is racist?
> trump is racist?
> i really don't know


I don't understand what you're saying. It's a garbled bunch of words that fails to deliver a coherent message...


----------



## lexarvn (Jan 26, 2017)

Why a wall won't work anyways


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

lexarvn said:


> Why a wall won't work anyways



Let me guess... tunnels?


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> I don't understand what you're saying. It's a garbled bunch of words that fails to deliver a coherent message...


ohh.. trump is really racist im sorry maybe he can change your mind to accept black people ^^


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

lexarvn said:


> Why a wall won't work anyways *snip*


I don't expect it to be perfect from the beginning. It's primary function is to convey a message. Trump has also mentioned many other, vastly more effective ideas and policies to stop illegal immigration.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> And immigration is wrong because... ???



Illegal immigration is wrong because it breaks the law. Selective reading is a sin! LOL



Gizametalman said:


> El que es wey por gusto, hasta la coyunta lame.
> 
> Seriously? Arguing with the *average* american?



LOL the average american isn't crossing into Mexico! We respect laws. Also let's not argue education between the 2 countries LOLz


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> Let me guess... tunnels?


you even didn't watch the video...
don't worry me too XD


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> ohh.. trump is really racist im sorry maybe he can change your mind to accept black people ^^


No dude, you just can't minimize immigration to black people.
Immigrants covers a wide variety of races.
Call it Asian, American or European.
So not only "Black" people goes there.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> OOOOHH it because trump is racist?
> trump is racist?
> i really don't know



Trump is just an enthusiastic supporter of something called "immigration laws"!


----------



## insidexdeath (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Loosing Mexico as an ally would hurt? No!
> 
> 1) We have a trade deficit with Mexico, which is about to be sorted by Trump
> 2) Mexico is never part of a coalition
> ...


A) You have borders with the country, it should matter whether they're your ally or not.
B) Yes, Trump does plan to re-negotiate NAFTA, we'll see what happens then. We cannot be certain that these negotiations would go smoothly, so this is definitely going to take a lot of time.
C) Having a bigger/better army does not necessarily mean you'd benefit from this. I do not understand why an issue with border control should result to war. Also, The flow of illegal immigrants should also be blamed on corrupt American border security, which are getting bribed. So there is much more to sort, than just building a wall which neither would benefit from.

Legal immigration will become harder trust me. In time, you'll see. Brexit is a completely different case, so let's not derail the thread


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> ohh.. trump is really racist im sorry maybe he can change your mind to accept black people ^^


If Trump is racist that means he only likes people of his own race (contrary to the popular definition of "whites that like whites), so how would a racist person convince me, a racially accepting person, to be less racist? 

Also, your punctuation and capitalization suck.


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Illegal immigration is wrong because it breaks the law. Selective reading is a sin! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> LOL the average american isn't crossing into Mexico! We respect laws. Also let's not argue education between the 2 countries LOLz




I give you that, you're right.
THERE'S NO COMPARISSON.

*You seem like you're very proud of being an American. 
Do I have to explain you the joke here?*


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> If Trump is racist that means he only likes people of his own race (contrary to the popular definition of "whites that like whites), so how would a racist person convince me, a racially accepting person, to be less racist?
> 
> Also, your punctuation and capitalization suck.


i don't know too much about politic XD
so, say that are something on me sucks will not ofdend me don't waste your time XD
and.. can you re-write your comment because MY ENGLISH SUCKS XD and sometimes i don't understand somethings


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> I give you that, you're right.
> THERE'S NO COMPARISSON.
> 
> *You seem like you're very proud of being an American.
> Do I have to explain you the joke here?*




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

LOL, Mexico is after Tajikistan!!! No wonder my clothes say made in Mexico LOL

YES I am proud to be an American, that's why you don't see me jumping the border. Why can't people immigrate LEGALLY, or stay in whatever they call a country? LOLz


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
> 
> LOL, Mexico is after Tajikistan!!! No wonder my clothes say made in Mexico LOL
> 
> YES I am proud to be an America, *that's why you don't see me jumping the border.* Why can't people immigrate LEGALLY, or stay in whatever they call a country? LOLz


Says the descendant of English immigrants.


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
> 
> LOL, Mexico is after Tajikistan!!! No wonder my clothes say made in Mexico LOL/QUOTE]
> 
> That may be because you can't even make wearable clothing.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> Says the descendant of English immigrants.



Says the American. LOL!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Gizametalman said:


> That may be because you can't even make wearable clothing.



You are right I spent my youth going to school rather than working in a textile shop! LOLz


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> Says the descendant of English immigrants.


Your great-great-great-myabe a coulpe more greats, I don't know...-grandfather did x, therefore I hold you accountable. This is the same mindset that's killing us. Just because his XGreats-Grandfather/Grandmother left his/her home country LEGALLY to start a better life somewhere else, it does NOT mean... you know what? You're not even worth my time to explain this a second time to.


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
> 
> *YES I am proud to be an American, that's why you don't see me jumping the border. Why can't people immigrate LEGALLY, or stay in whatever they call a country? LOLz*



Countries like... California?


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> Countries like... California?


I thought California was a county... XD


----------



## lexarvn (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> Let me guess... tunnels?


Actually, planes. The ever increasing way people illegally immigrate to the US is by coming here 100% legally, and then just staying longer than they were supposed to.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> Countries like... California?



LOL you cheeky bastard. That's a county! (no pun intended)

Anywho, that doesn't fix Mexico's problems. I really do feel bad for you Mexicans, trying to jump the border all to live here, all I am asking is do it legally or don't do it at all LOL.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> I thought California was a county... XD


but california IS a couNTY XD


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> but california IS a couNTY XD



This is your first English comment! LOL


----------



## Gizametalman (Jan 26, 2017)

Tigroid said:


> I thought California was a county... XD





 

And yet again:



Have a good day, compadres.
Paco's out of here.


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL you cheeky bastard. That's a county! (no pun intended)
> 
> Anywho, that doesn't fix Mexico's problems. I really do feel bad for you Mexicans, trying to jump the border all to live here, all I am asking is do it legally or don't do it at all LOL.


You're all more than welcome to vote to annex your country to ours!


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> This is your first English comment! LOL


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
SUCK IT you modafóca
when trump dies...
wait


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

You people really fail to see that we are all the result of immigration in one way or another, no one is 100% american nor 100% mexican nor any other stupid race or country citizen.
Each one of us comes from mixture of races and/or people from other places.
Immigration is something that people tends to do for hope of a better life, a better future.
English people did it, Spain did it, people in the US do it too, Latin America does too.
Heck sometimes it's only just to pay a visit to family or just visit some place of interest from the country.

Why is the US so closed down to immigration when I see americans passing without any check to Mexico?
I can assure you that if legal immigration became easier to process, the US wouldn't have this problem at all.
It's their own fault and their lack of security, not Mexico's nor any other country citizen trying to get to the US.


el_gonz87 said:


> You are right I spent my youth going to school rather than working in a textile shop! LOLz


Oh btw textile shops are not even that big in here
I have finished my school already in engineering and I'm going for the masters degree, so you don't even have a point in there.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> You people really fail to see that we are all the result of immigration in one way or another, no one is 100% american nor 100% mexican nor any other stupid race or country citizen.
> Each one of us comes from mixture of races and/or people from other places.
> Immigration is something that people tends to do for hope of a better life, a better future.
> English people did it, Spain did it, people in the US do it too, Latin America does too.
> ...


it's a bunch of kids talking of an wall that will never exist XD


----------



## Tigroid (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> You people really fail to see that we are all the result of immigration in one way or another, no one is 100% american nor 100% mexican nor any other stupid race or country citizen.
> Each one of us comes from mixture of races and/or people from other places.
> Immigration is something that people tends to do for hope of a better life, a better future.
> English people did it, Spain did it, people in the US do it too, Latin America does too.
> ...


While I agree with the point you're making, there's one mistake you made that I feel needs corrected. I *AM *100% American. I was born here, raised here, and will gladly live and die here, for the USA if necessary.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Gizametalman said:


> View attachment 76304
> 
> And yet again:
> 
> ...




See ya! I'm bout to take a lunch anyways, I'm thinking a nice burrito shop run by this wonderful lady named Maria (who's Mexican).



ShadowOne333 said:


> You people really fail to see that we are all the result of immigration in one way or another, no one is 100% american nor 100% mexican nor any other stupid race or country citizen.
> Each one of us comes from mixture of races and/or people from other places.
> Immigration is something that people tends to do for hope of a better life, a better future.
> English people did it, Spain did it, people in the US do it too, Latin America does too.
> ...



LOL the last bit, was a response to your compadre saying I couldn't make clothes to which I was agreeing, I have no textile experience LOL.

As for immigration, nobody is against it, immigrate legally!

Tell Nieto to fix your immigration laws, I have no problem presenting my passport.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



BlueFox gui said:


> it's a bunch of kids talking of an wall that will never exist XD



LOL you brick your 3DS yet? A9LH can spontaneously brick you know....


----------



## Tortitamal (Jan 26, 2017)

Yes we will pay. Not directly mind you. But since USA has a total economical control of Mexico, they can force the money out of us in more subtle ways.
I mean, the NAFTA was made by USA for benefit of USA, yes maybe some american manufacturing jobs were lost but it made american companies stronger and richer. Most Mexican born companies at the time where bought by American companies or went bankrupt because they couldn't compete with the american companies. 
Also USA is the primary buyer of Mexican oil, that's another easy way they can screw us over.


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Tell Nieto to fix your immigration laws, I have no problem presenting my passport.


We have no problems with immigrants here.
So guess who has the issues with immigration laws


----------



## Chary (Jan 26, 2017)

I want this wall built ASAP. I'm sick of seeing illegal immigrants coming over here, not learning English, not doing anything productive, and taking jobs from the LEGAL immigrants that are coming here the way they should be. Making Mexico pay for it, though? I'm not sure about that. While it is their fault for having a crappy country that no one wants to live in apparently, I don't think we should force them to shell out 100% of the cost. I assume that their President will just tax the people to get the money, throwing their economy even further into whack. But I certainly don't want to pay for Mexico's problems with borders either. It's tough.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL you brick your 3DS yet? A9LH can spontaneously brick you know....


LOL are you afraid with something to suddenly change the subject? 
no my 3ds is fine i installed A9LH with no problems injected emunand over sysnand and everything is working fine don't need to reinstall nothing and i saved 1GB from SD
XD


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> We have no problems with immigrants here.
> So guess who has the issues with immigration laws



Definitely us, we can't stop illegal immigration from Mexico, until now!

We have a problem with people not following laws. I'm sorry if this is offensive.


----------



## osaka35 (Jan 26, 2017)

The only way mexico builds the wall is if it benefits them, or if they have a gun to their head. So the only way trump is going to get them to build a wall is to threaten them with something worse (violence, bombing, etc).


----------



## Chary (Jan 26, 2017)

osaka35 said:


> The only way mexico builds the wall is if it benefits them, or if they have a gun to their head. So the only way trump is going to get them to build a wall is to threaten them with something worse (violence, bombing, etc).


Or...just...peacefully negotiating. Y'know...like how he's been doing his whole life? I don't get why everyone thinks Trump is bomb-happy.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> LOL are you afraid with something to suddenly change the subject?
> no my 3ds is fine i installed A9LH with no problems injected emunand over sysnand and everything is working fine don't need to reinstall nothing and i saved 1GB from SD
> XD



LOL nope, I just never asked you how the install was going. Now don't brick, I hear 3DS costs an arm and a leg in Brazil.

To your point, the WALL is coming. Paul Ryan confirmed it will be financed under a GW Bush law.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osaka35 said:


> The only way mexico builds the wall is if it benefits them, or if they have a gun to their head. So the only way trump is going to get them to build a wall is to threaten them with something worse (violence, bombing, etc).



NAFTA.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL nope, I just never asked you how the install was going. Now don't brick, I hear 3DS costs an arm and a leg in Brazil.
> 
> To your point, the WALL is coming. Paul Ryan confirmed it will be financed under a GW Bush law.
> 
> ...


nintendo 3DS is really expansive here thats why i was so afraid to install A9LH but everything goes fine i make A LOT OF BACKUPS of my NAND and OTP i sread backups in all my house XD
and....paul ryan don't confirm anything that wall is coming.... HE CONFIRMS HALF LIFE 3 IS COMING XD


----------



## osaka35 (Jan 26, 2017)

Chary said:


> Or...just...peacefully negotiating. Y'know...like how he's been doing his whole life? I don't get why everyone thinks Trump is bomb-happy.


They could take the "build the wall and say you're paying for it, but we'll give you money through the backdoor to pay for it with a little extra. Like with


el_gonz87 said:


> NAFTA.


or something" approach. I guess it'll depend on whether Mexico doesn't mind losing face with the US/trump to make some profit in the long term.

Or they could take the "do it or we'll make you suffer" approach. His words always take this approach (you should look into his business dealings), and so far all his presidential decrees have been along this line, but I suppose it's too early to tell if that'll transfer over to foreign conversations.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/polit...ump-enrique-pena-nieto-border-wall/index.html

Good Peña is not crossing the border, now if he could just get the rest of Mexicans to follow this example...


----------



## Olmectron (Jan 26, 2017)

Our "president" is a joke. They will increase prices of everything, from gas to food, the government doesn't care about the people here.

Mexican economy will simply collapse at this rate. One year ago, 1 dollar = 14 mexican pesos roughly, today it's 1 dollar = 22 mexican pesos.

So, if "Mexico" pays for this wall, everything is simply getting even worse.

And no, I'm not against with everyone saying immigrants are an issue. I support your thoughs, since I know most of my fellow countrymen are as stupids and criminals as they can be. It's because of the bad education and lazy ideology nearly everyone has around here.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



el_gonz87 said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/polit...ump-enrique-pena-nieto-border-wall/index.html
> 
> Good Peña is not crossing the border, now if he could just get the rest of Mexicans to follow this example...


I won't cross the border, believe me, so you have 2 less Mexicans on your side.


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/polit...ump-enrique-pena-nieto-border-wall/index.html
> 
> Good Peña is not crossing the border, now if he could just get the rest of Mexicans to follow this example...


You won't get me to not cross the border


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> You won't get me to not cross the border



LOL you cheeky bastard! Just do it legally!


----------



## tech3475 (Jan 26, 2017)

If Mexico does pay, I doubt it will be without either some kind of coercion e.g. the US will do or stop doing something which benefits them or indirect e.g. tax on exports (or worse a tax on imports, which means Americans pay for it indirectly).

I doubt they will freely on their own accord pay for the wall.....unless America starts send it's rapists, terroists, etc. across illegally.


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL you cheeky bastard! Just do it legally!


I already do, you dumbbag.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> nintendo 3DS is really expansive here thats why i was so afraid to install A9LH but everything goes fine i make A LOT OF BACKUPS of my NAND and OTP i sread backups in all my house XD
> and....paul ryan don't confirm anything that wall is coming.... HE CONFIRMS HALF LIFE 3 IS COMING XD



I know English isn't your native language, but this is the first article on my google search and I'm too lazy to look for Portuguesao: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/paul-ryan-congress-will-pay-border-wall/


----------



## smileyhead (Jan 26, 2017)

Period.


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

ShadowOne333 said:


> I already do, you dumbbag.



LOL good for you! I wasn't assuming you didn't, just reiterating that I prefer people do this legally. No need to get sensitive my compadre!


----------



## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> I know English isn't your native language, but this is the first article on my google search and I'm too lazy to look for Portuguesao: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/paul-ryan-congress-will-pay-border-wall/


"portuguesao"?? HAHAHAHAHA  i love it
and man im talking shit i even don't know who is paul ryan, since trump don't fuck with my life i don't have any problem...
MAYBE


----------



## Olmectron (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL good for you! I wasn't assuming you didn't, just reiterating that I prefer people do this legally. No need to get sensitive my compadre!


This is already an international online community, so no "borders" here. Who cares about traveling to other countries when you can meet nice (and bad) people online?


----------



## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

tech3475 said:


> If Mexico does pay, I doubt it will be without either some kind of coercion e.g. the US will do or stop doing something which benefits them or indirect e.g. tax on exports (or worse a tax on imports, which means Americans pay for it indirectly).
> 
> I doubt they will freely on their own accord pay for the wall.....unless America starts send it's rapists, terroists, etc. across illegally.



Not necessarily, I think he will get far with the NAFTA leverage. If that fails, we will see a flood of jobs coming back this way which will boost the economy.


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## Tortitamal (Jan 26, 2017)

Yeah USA kinda sucks too... Its nowhere as shitty as Mexico or any Latin american country but still I rather go to Canada or stay here... even if the switch cost 500 dolars here xD


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Olmectron said:


> This is already an international online community, so no "borders" here. Who cares about traveling to other countries when you can meet nice (and bad) people online?



Haha I agree no borders here! I like chatting with my Mexican compadres!


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## ShadowOne333 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tortitamal said:


> Yeah USA kinda sucks too... Its nowhere as shitty as Mexico or any Latin american country but still I rather go to Canada or stay here... even if the switch cost 500 dolars here xD


Still, if you live anywhere below the northern states of Mexico, you will freeze your butt to the point of closing the butthole up 
The freezing temperatures of the northern states are but a simple intro to what northern America is (Canada).


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

Tortitamal said:


> Yeah USA kinda sucks too... Its nowhere as shitty as Mexico or any Latin american country but still I rather go to Canada or stay here... even if the switch cost 500 dolars here xD



LOL $500? I'm getting 2 Switch for that price! LOL

God bless America!


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL $500? I'm getting 2 Switch for that price! LOL
> 
> God bless America!


OOH MY GOD T^T PEOPLE ARE BUYNG A BUNCH OF SWITCH'S can some one use and sell for me at the half of the price? (are you rich right)


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 26, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> "portuguesao"?? HAHAHAHAHA  i love it
> and man im talking shit i even don't know who is paul ryan, since trump don't fuck with my life i don't have any problem...
> MAYBE



He's the speaker of the speaker of the house, another branch of the US government:


^this is him laughing at the silly liberals.



BlueFox gui said:


> OOH MY GOD T^T PEOPLE ARE BUYNG A BUNCH OF SWITCH'S can some one use and sell for me at the half of the price? (are you rich right)



LOL I'm middle class not upper class. Our economy is just more stable so our prices are better.


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> LOL I'm middle class not upper class. Our economy is just more stable so our prices are better.


The only thing that comforts me is that Reggie said he will still announce the price of the console in Latin America
About my 3DS, I've put together money for a long time to buy a New 3DS and the most I got was an old 3DS used and almost destroyed, his condition is not one of the best, and since it's one of the first models of 2011, his buttons are bad to squeeze and hurt my fingers.


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## tech3475 (Jan 26, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Not necessarily, I think he will get far with the NAFTA leverage. If that fails, we will see a flood of jobs coming back this way which will boost the economy.



So coercing them like I said.

Even then, the Mexican government would probably look at how he planned on going against NAFTA anyway.

Also, just be warned that the 'flood of jobs' may not be what you think it is e.g. automation and/or higher costs while wages are still relatively low (that's some that Trump would need to address as businesses like Wal-Mart have been known to abuse benefits to keep wages low).


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jan 29, 2017)

Trump can build his wall if he wants, but Mexico paying for it. Seriously. What would you say if I chose a random Temper and ordered him/her to buy me a 3ds or a car or a house or anything? Of course you'd laugh at me. Donald Dump wanting Mexico to pay for this wall is exactly the same thing, and even thinking about it is ridiculous. Except in this case you're asking the said random Temper to buy you a gun so you can shoot him.


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## McWhiters9511 (Jan 29, 2017)

Theres going to be a massive tax increase on goods being imported from mexico to U.S. About 20% I think and that will bring about plenty enough to build the wall within a couple years.


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## Deleted User (Jan 29, 2017)

Alex4U said:


> Hell yeah, a real-life shooter game.


But War isn't like COD

And I can't think of any Military shooter that has had Mexico vs. US


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## McWhiters9511 (Jan 29, 2017)

VinLark said:


> But War isn't like COD
> 
> And I can't think of any Military shooter that has had Mexico vs. US


this is the closest thing lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican–American_War


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 29, 2017)

THE WAR IS COMING


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 29, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> THE WAR IS COMING




Hahahahaha!!! That's pretty much how it's going to go. Mexico's president is playing tough in public, but he knows nothing good is gonna come from pissing of the US.

The wall is practically paid for, they're just negotiating a payment schedule I bet.


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## slaphappygamer (Jan 29, 2017)

There is this fence in my backyard, it seperates my yard and my neighbors. Its old and is not high enough for my liking. I'm telling my neighbor that I want a new one and he is going to pay for it. My neighbor is no very upset at me and I have no clue why.


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 29, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Hahahahaha!!! That's pretty much how it's going to go. Mexico's president is playing tough in public, but he knows nothing good is gonna come from pissing of the US.
> 
> The wall is practically paid for, they're just negotiating a payment schedule I bet.



It was just an excuse to put the video, I love this video and I throw the hat for these people XD


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 29, 2017)

slaphappygamer said:


> There is this fence in my backyard, it seperates my yard and my neighbors. Its old and is not high enough for my liking. I'm telling my neighbor that I want a new one and he is going to pay for it. My neighbor is no very upset at me and I have no clue why.



Where is the metaphor for illegal immigrants? "My neighbors 20 kids keep crossing into my yard, 19 are doing good things such as cleaning the area and trimming the bushes, 1 of them stabbed my own kid.

Yeah you better bet my neighbor is paying for that wall!


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jan 29, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> Where is the metaphor for illegal immigrants? "My neighbors 20 kids keep crossing into my yard, 19 are doing good things such as cleaning the area and trimming the bushes, 1 of them stabbed my own kid.
> 
> Yeah you better bet my neighbor is paying for that wall!


Nope he isn't paying for, and nothing urges him to do so.


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## slaphappygamer (Jan 29, 2017)

So, if one your shirts has a whole in it, you'd throw away all your clothes.


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 29, 2017)

slaphappygamer said:


> So, if one your shirts has a whole in it, you'd throw away all your clothes.



Illegal immigrants are not our shirt. If my neighbor throws a shirt into my lawn with 1 hole in it, you better believe that's going into the back into his lawn.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



StarTrekVoyager said:


> Nope he isn't paying for, and nothing urges him to do so.



They will, they know what the US can do to their economy. *cough* NAFTA *cough*


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## slaphappygamer (Jan 29, 2017)

Our taxes will go higher to pay for the wall, that will never get going. Donald won't be in office much longer anyway. Even if he serves a full term, we will have much more than a wall to worry about.


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## Alex4U (Jan 29, 2017)

BlueFox gui said:


> THE WAR IS COMING



mamones vs usa


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 29, 2017)

Just a heads up, I'd give trump ~2 years to get everything negotiated. Mexico's presidential election is in 2018 and the guy in the lead is pretty much riding Mexican anti-Trump sentiment. Trump ain't getting nothing past him. 

Also, as far as the 20% tariff goes, the US can try but I doubt Mexicans would keep trying to sell their goods at that point, for both practical purposes and Mexican pride.


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## BlueFox gui (Jan 29, 2017)

MAN THANK YOUi have an good idea for animation about some wall some blue fox mexican version and trump exploding pelotas


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 29, 2017)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> Just a heads up, I'd give trump ~2 years to get everything negotiated. Mexico's presidential election is in 2018 and the guy in the lead is pretty much riding Mexican anti-Trump sentiment. Trump ain't getting nothing past him.
> 
> Also, as far as the 20% tariff goes, the US can try but I doubt Mexicans would keep trying to sell their goods at that point, for both practical purposes and Mexican pride.



If the Tariffs go in, Mexico can welcome the hike in unemployment. So many factories would relocate to keep the US market.

They can have their pride, still gonna pay for the wall some way or another.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



slaphappygamer said:


> Our taxes will go higher to pay for the wall, that will never get going. Donald won't be in office much longer anyway. Even if he serves a full term, we will have much more than a wall to worry about.



Pence - Ryan presidency, lord have mercy on the LGBT. I hope that doesn't happen, honestly.

The liberals know, Pence would be their worst nightmare.


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## Hells Malice (Jan 29, 2017)

Given the US can heavily bully Mexico if they _don't _agree to paying for the wall, I wouldn't rule it out. It sounds retarded, but it's probably one of the cheaper options in the long run.

edit:
 (non-US) We'll pressure them into doing it

also I don't think Canada would pressure 'em into doing it m8.


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## deinonychus71 (Jan 29, 2017)

Hells Malice said:


> Given the US can heavily bully Mexico if they _don't _agree to paying for the wall, I wouldn't rule it out. It sounds retarded, but it's probably one of the cheaper options in the long run.
> 
> edit:
> (non-US) We'll pressure them into doing it
> ...



That's the thing... he -thinks- he can bully them, but there are international rules. If he wants to break them it might not just be about The US and Mexico.
Trump is a megalomaniac, never forget it.


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## Hells Malice (Jan 29, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> That's the thing... he -thinks- he can bully them, but there are international rules. If he wants to break them it might not just be about The US and Mexico.
> Trump is a megalomaniac, never forget it.



There are international rules, but no one really honestly gives a shit about Mexico. Its only ally is the US pretty much.
There's a lot of things Trump can't get away with, but there is plenty he CAN get away with. The tariffs that crazy monkey el gonz is spouting about are one example of many for things Trump could do without any repercussions worldwide.


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 29, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> That's the thing... he -thinks- he can bully them, but there are international rules. If he wants to break them it might not just be about The US and Mexico.
> Trump is a megalomaniac, never forget it.



International rules? Hahahahaha 

I'm sorry but US, Russia, and China don't know of any international rules.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 29, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> If the Tariffs go in, Mexico can welcome the hike in unemployment. So many factories would relocate to keep the US market.
> 
> They can have their pride, still gonna pay for the wall some way or another.



Yeah, its definitely true that such a tariff would ruin Mexico until they renegotiate trade deals with other nations to start recouping the loss (which, of course, won't be easy). I'm not sure that its the best way to generate revenue though, because Mexican exports to the US will undoubtedly drop and US consumers won't be buying the goods. And, of course, the price increase for American consumers will not make Americans happy, because most people don't support the wall and don't want their way of life affected by it.

But, of course, it indirectly fulfills the fun "make Mexico pay" slogan, so there's that.


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## WiiUBricker (Jan 29, 2017)

Poll choices are too many and too complicated. Not voting.


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 29, 2017)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> Yeah, its definitely true that such a tariff would ruin Mexico until they renegotiate trade deals with other nations to start recouping the loss (which, of course, won't be easy). I'm not sure that its the best way to generate revenue though, because Mexican exports to the US will undoubtedly drop and US consumers won't be buying the goods. And, of course, the price increase for American consumers will not make Americans happy, because most people don't support the wall and don't want their way of life affected by it.
> 
> But, of course, it indirectly fulfills the fun "make Mexico pay" slogan, so there's that.



To be honest I think the US would have much better luck at negotiating trade deals, seeing as our market is much much bigger than Mexico. The US is so much better equipped for a trade war than Mexico, people seem to forget this....


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 29, 2017)

el_gonz87 said:


> To be honest I think the US would have much better luck at negotiating trade deals, seeing as our market is much much bigger than Mexico. The US is so much better equipped for a trade war than Mexico, people seem to forget this....



That's undoubtedly true, the US would definitely be the one to come out on top. I'm just questioning how effective it would be in collecting the 10-20 billion the wall will cost, since it's not like Mexico will keep exporting to the US and American consumers won't keep buying the more expensive stuff. And since most Americans don't support the wall, they won't be happy that stuff is more expensive. 

Also, Mexicans come illegally to the US to improve their way of life, and not all of them come through the border. If we worsen their way of life, won't they be more tempted to come illegally?


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## Logan Pockrus (Jan 29, 2017)

lexarvn said:


> Why a wall won't work anyways




This is the second time I've seen this video posted in one of these kinds of threads.  Here is a video that directly counters Adam's weak points:


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## RevPokemon (Jan 29, 2017)

Logan Pockrus said:


> This is the second time I've seen this video posted in one of these kinds of threads.  Here is a video that directly counters Adam's weak points:



Crowder used to be the voice of Brain on Arthur

Anyway, everyone should watch this


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 29, 2017)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> That's undoubtedly true, the US would definitely be the one to come out on top. I'm just questioning how effective it would be in collecting the 10-20 billion the wall will cost, since it's not like Mexico will keep exporting to the US and American consumers won't keep buying the more expensive stuff. And since most Americans don't support the wall, they won't be happy that stuff is more expensive.
> 
> Also, Mexicans come illegally to the US to improve their way of life, and not all of them come through the border. If we worsen their way of life, won't they be more tempted to come illegally?



I think that's two fair points. TBH I think Trump is gonna use NAFTA as a scare tactic to bullying Mexico with the wall. I think there is a very good possibility they will pay for it, but if that fails you are right it may just turn into a moral victory for the US where they basically just screw Mexico over and end up paying it themselves.

About other forms of illegal immigration, I hope Trump tackles that next. IMO though it's much better to have somebody get screened for a visa than jumping across the border and the govt not knowing anything about them. I think the wall if built as Trump has said will have large effect on the border jumping.


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## Logan Pockrus (Jan 29, 2017)

RevPokemon said:


> Crowder used to be the voice of Brain on Arthur


Okay?  That shouldn't devalue his opinion.


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## RevPokemon (Jan 29, 2017)

Logan Pockrus said:


> Okay?  That shouldn't devalue his opinion.


It doesn't but it is a random fact I remember for no reason.


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## Logan Pockrus (Jan 29, 2017)

RevPokemon said:


> It doesn't but it is a random fact I remember for no reason.


Oh, okay.  I thought you were presenting that as a reason to not listen to him (that's not to say there aren't any, but I digress).


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## matthi321 (Jan 29, 2017)

im guesing it will depend what usa does if they dont pay for, if the remow the trade betwen the countrys if mexico dont pay for it, i think it will be better for mexico to just pay for the wall


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## ChronoX_ (Jan 29, 2017)

Can't wait!


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## el_gonz87 (Jan 30, 2017)

ChronoX_ said:


> Can't wait!



No American would complain about Canada building a wall, as long as they pay for it


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## kehkou (Jan 30, 2017)

There is no "when hell freezes over" option.

I'm confident New Mexico State Legislature will pass the state law banning the wall in the state, so even if he builds it, it will stretch from the California coast through Arid-zona, then stop abruptly in New Mexico, before starting again 180 miles later in Texas.


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## Foxchild (Jan 30, 2017)

I believe in having secure borders, but I'll admit I was hoping the wall would be more... metaphorical.  I mean, there have to be more economical means of making our border more secure than it currently is without a physical wall.  In any event, I would think Mexico should also have an interest in keeping their border secure, and they should contribute to the cost of keeping that border secure.  Of course, whether or not they will remains to be seen.


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## Lacius (Jan 30, 2017)

Mexico's not paying for the wall.


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## Deleted member 408979 (Jan 30, 2017)

we aint paying nothin.

Im glad the mayority of americans here dont want one :-)


a 1900 mile long wall...3400 kilometers...

Yeah there's no way in hell neither of us can afford it.


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jan 30, 2017)

Anyways , if D. Dump wants a wall, he builds it himself lol.


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## Taleweaver (Feb 2, 2017)

Okay...I gotta admit that when I first checked this thread again, it was up to five pages and there was a heavy debate* going on already. Rather than mingle and attempt to reply everyone individually, I gotta say I thank everyone for voicing their concerns and opinions on the matter, even though I don't always agree (which...would've been impossible in this sort of situation).

As it stands, the dust is more or less settled on this topic (alas: it's more because Trump is busy creating NEW controversies rather than solving other ones). Let's recap things a bit:
-both American and non-American tempers believe that it's US citizens who will end up paying for it in the end, though the former has a bit higher chance of believing it. Note that this small poll is far from done on a large enough scale to get proper statistical data (gbatempers don't represent enough of a diversification on populae in the first place), so please don't get too overeager to tell this to the world.
-the "most immigrants come by plane" is an important argument, and a heavily debated one. As it becomes clear with Donald's (even more) controversial act of prohibiting people from Muslim countries**. I have no doubt that as this wall thing goes through, even simple vacations to the US will become extremely hard for Mexicans.
-perhaps more interesting to me personally is what is NOT mentioned: the loss of jobs due to automatisations and off-shoring. I just read a book about this***, and asides predicting that as a species, we're on the verge of huge, systematic unemployment because of automatisation, he also makes a very valid observation on the subject of immigration. He basically wonders why everyone seems to hate Mexicans who come over and do jobs that US citizens won't like to do (cleaning, janitor services, fastfood operator, and so on), but nobody makes a fuss when countries like India "steal" all sorts of jobs that US citizens would more likely do (telemarketeer, tech support, insurance, these sorts of things). In other words: what's the point of closing physical borders when the virtual ones remain to be wide open?
-unfortunately, I predicted the outcome in that "we'll pressure them into doing it" option rather correctly: Trump wants to build his wall by using an import tax on Mexican goods. The problem with this, however, is that this would be a violation of a treaty that he conveniently placed in a bad light prior to proposing this. In other words: NAFTA. The funny thing is that I've read about this treaty about a couple months before the elections. In that book****, the (American) author feels almost apologetic towards Mexico, as he thoroughly describes how Mexico couldn't compete with the subsidized food that America dumped into Mexico (thus effectively pushing poor farmers off the market) while abusing local antidump-laws to fend off the import of cheaper Mexican tomatoes. Granted, the book is ten years old by now, but when asked to believe a nobel prize winner or a business man who lies more than he speaks the truth, I chose the former. In other words: NAFTA never was a one-sided deal in favor of Mexico. And with that being a lie, I'm not so sure what will happen if this income tax (and with that: the total annulation of NAFTA) goes through. But the chances of it ever being sufficient of completely building that wall are low. So low I honestly wouldn't trust it as an American taxpayer.
-though I'm thoroughly against that wall, I'll give it my opponents that there is a good side to this situation: employment. You can't build a Chinese wall in your backyard without a huge amount of workers. No matter how much or little use that wall will end up having, employees to build, maintain and/or guard the wall gives them something to do. And cynical as I might be about the purpose, giving people jobs helps the economy.



*which differs from a discussion in that everyone already had their opinions formed and wasn't going to budge.
**according to him, the fact that they're Muslim countries has nothing to do with it. According to everyone else, it has everything to do with it.
***Rise of the machines, by Thomas Rid
****making globalisation work, by Joseph Stiglitz


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## Windaga (Feb 2, 2017)

eechigoo said:


> we aint paying nothin.
> 
> Im glad the mayority of americans here dont want one :-)
> 
> ...



There's very little that "all" Americans want, outside of the basic wants every country has. Safety, general freedom, policing, public services, the internet, etc.

Whenever any government official steps on a podium and spews nonsense, know that there are plenty of people that either; a. Don't care/don't know, or b. Don't agree. Iran released a statement acknowledging the American people from the American government, which is pretty accurate. 

There are plenty of people that want this wall; people that think it's a good idea; people that think Mexico should pay for it. We all have our own opinions, but we all don't think that. If you're ever accosted by someone that does, or offended and insulted otherwise, know that there are plenty of other, well mannered Americans that don't feel that way; Americans that just want to live peacefully beside you. 

Our governing body might not agree, but there are plenty of people in America that loves Mexico (and Canada, and Iran, and every god damn country under the sun.) 

So from all of us that might not agree with our newly elected commander-in-chief and his cabinet of buddies - we love you guys, and hope you'll still love us too.


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## BORTZ (Feb 2, 2017)

No lol plain and simple


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## Yil (Feb 2, 2017)

The truth is, The State isn't as invincible as everyone thinks. What is important is that we should forget it and start thinking about how to improve living in our homes, which the states might contribute to some damage.


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## ars25 (Feb 2, 2017)

I personally believe there is no way in hell Mexico will pay for the wall directly. As for the people laughing at Mexico and Canada being disposable allies the Zimmerman Telegram can serve as a good reminder of how this alliance is crucial Incase of another world war.


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## CitizenSnips (Feb 2, 2017)

If it does actually get built, US citizens will probably end up paying for it. Why should Mexico pay for something that another country wants to build near their border? That's like wanting your neighbor to pay for a fence you build between your lawn and theirs


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## The Catboy (Feb 3, 2017)

There shouldn't be a wall in the first place.


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## Deleted member 408979 (Feb 3, 2017)

Windaga said:


> There's very little that "all" Americans want, outside of the basic wants every country has. Safety, general freedom, policing, public services, the internet, etc.
> 
> Whenever any government official steps on a podium and spews nonsense, know that there are plenty of people that either; a. Don't care/don't know, or b. Don't agree. Iran released a statement acknowledging the American people from the American government, which is pretty accurate.
> 
> ...




Its comforting to know not all americans are like that (although its kinda obvious since it was almost a tie),but now some mexicans wont forgive you,and think all americans voted for him. Its kind of a common belief in here that if a group decided something,everyone in that group chose it (even if it was a one person difference)


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