# What position or opinion have you changed your mind on, and why?



## appleburger (Jul 29, 2022)

This is a challenging ask for a political thread, but let's see if we can keep this discussion at a high level - meaning that if you want to debate a specific topic (say, abortion as an example) we already have threads with a plethora of responses for you to address.  Let's not drag those same conversations into this thread, please.  This thread is for discussing how/why we've changed our minds, so let's leave the active debate to the other threads; it'll help keep the forum organized and keep our conversations from de-railing.​

When I was younger, I was pretty staunchly against giving homeless people money.  I never talked openly about it or anything, but I personally felt that giving the homeless money was enabling, and they had the tools necessary in my area to get help if they really needed it.  I had failed to really think about the different ways people end up in that position and just hadn't bothered to really sit and think about it beyond 'irresponsibility leads to being homeless', ignorantly.  One day I came across this youtube channel, 'Invisible People' - it got me thinking about the homeless in my area more, and I realized that I really didn't agree with my younger self at all anymore as time went on. I've since talked to many homeless people and handed out cash to them.  A few months ago I had lunch with a recently homeless guy who lost his home, job and son all at once.  His 12 year old son was shot in a drive-by shooting in another state - they drove down to the motel 6 across the street from me, and were working from scratch.  He was showing me all of the evidence of his job, wife, life back at home, etc., and it was sad, because so many people wrote him off as another junkie that you could see the panic in him as he was trying to show that he's just a normal guy in a really shitty situation.  It could have all been an elaborate ruse, but he didn't even ask me for cash - he genuinely seemed to just really need somebody to talk to without them assuming he's trash.  I can't imagine the toll that must take mentally.  I wound up just getting him some food while keeping the conversation going.  He had a gameplan for getting back into a new home, and I haven't seen him around for months now, so maybe the plan worked out for them after all.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Jul 29, 2022)

One of the problems with society at large is that there's a significant culture centered around demonizing the homeless, and it's one of the most horrific things our societies do. I used to think homelessness was entirely the fault of poor choices and laziness, but once I realized how genuinely privileged I was to hold such a stance, I found very quickly that homelessness is a deeply rooted systemic issue, one which can't possibly be fixed by stupid shit like criminalization. The way coastal states for example are criminalizing the hell out of homelessness to stop property values (which are already vastly inflated) from going lower is utterly inhumane, and constitutes a massive violation of human rights.

Imagine how much better things would be if we got rid of mansions and just made like, large communal housing districts with public access kitchens, laundromats, and the like. You'd have a tiny roof of your head and a room to yourself, with AC and basic necessities, and if you wanted something lavish you could work for it.

Poverty isn't a choice, and it's not a result of being stupid, lazy, and so on. It's an inherent trait of capitalism that is *necessitated* so that others can be rich. I think that's immoral.


----------



## Flame (Jul 30, 2022)

Gay (LGBT) people. when I was younger you were taught by other people(kids) that being gay is bad. you want to make somebody mad, don't talk about they race, mum, how poor they are. tell them how gay they are. I thought this was normal to hate gay people. I mean its in the music too. growing up my fav rapper was 50 Cent. one of his lyrics is "You that faggot ass n**** trying to pull me back right?"

but as I grew up and experienced life I found out that gay people are the best people. most people who hate gay people is because of they own insecurities or its what they being taught in schools/Sunday schools which is written in a book which is over 2000 years old. this book also says the world is flat and the universe is 6000 years old. are those fact? no. so is gay people bad. no.


----------



## AmandaRose (Jul 30, 2022)

Flame said:


> Gay (LGBT) people. when I was younger you were taught by other people(kids) that being gay is bad. you want to make somebody mad, don't talk about they race, mum, how poor they are. tell them how gay they are. I thought this was normal to hate gay people. I mean its in the music too. growing up my fav rapper was 50 Cent. one of his lyrics is "You that faggot ass n**** trying to pull me back right?"
> 
> but as I grew up and experienced life I found out that gay people are the best people. most people who hate gay people is because of they own insecurities or its what they being taught in schools/Sunday schools which is written in a book which is over 2000 years old. this book also says the world is flat and the universe is 6000 years old. are those fact? no. so is gay people bad. no.


Forget the gays it's the Ts in LGBT you need to worry about


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Jul 30, 2022)

Hating police officers. 

When I was a teenager, like most of my friends in the mid-90's, it was all about FUCK THE POLICE. 

We used to quote from the Nirvana biography and shout CORN ON THE COPS like Kurt used to do, because we were all stupid teenagers with flannel shirts tied around our waists, thinking anarchy was a good thing. 

As I got older, I came to fully respect and back the blue. They do an absolutely thankless job, they are subject to massive unjustified hate and scorn, and would be the first people to actually come save someone if they needed help. 

Not saying all cops are good, any more than I would say that all people in the military are good. There are always bad apples everywhere. Few other professions are held to this standard, though. I would posit that there are hundreds of thousands of public school teachers that are doing much, much more harm to children than all of the police officers in America, combined. 

I back the blue, with pride.


----------



## SAORIxMEGUMIN (Jul 30, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> Hating police officers.
> 
> When I was a teenager, like most of my friends in the mid-90's, it was all about FUCK THE POLICE.
> 
> ...


The best way IMO is to not lean too heavy in either direction for a large group of people or organization unless it is blatantly obvious they are all are doing a certain thing. It would be the same as saying a group or organization is good or bad because you know a portion of that entire group is good or bad.


----------



## AmandaRose (Jul 30, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> One of the problems with society at large is that there's a significant culture centered around demonizing the homeless, and it's one of the most horrific things our societies do. I used to think homelessness was entirely the fault of poor choices and laziness, but once I realized how genuinely privileged I was to hold such a stance, I found very quickly that homelessness is a deeply rooted systemic issue, one which can't possibly be fixed by stupid shit like criminalization. The way coastal states for example are criminalizing the hell out of homelessness to stop property values (which are already vastly inflated) from going lower is utterly inhumane, and constitutes a massive violation of human rights.
> 
> Imagine how much better things would be if we got rid of mansions and just made like, large communal housing districts with public access kitchens, laundromats, and the like. You'd have a tiny roof of your head and a room to yourself, with AC and basic necessities, and if you wanted something lavish you could work for it.
> 
> Poverty isn't a choice, and it's not a result of being stupid, lazy, and so on. It's an inherent trait of capitalism that is *necessitated* so that others can be rich. I think that's immoral.


Totally and if every Millionaire in the world donated the small amount of say £10 or the equivalent for each country then poverty would be a thing of the past. The £10 would make zero difference to the Millionaire they probably make that in less than 10 seconds from interest from thier bank account and it would make a huge difference to all the poor homeless people of the world.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Jul 30, 2022)

AmandaRose said:


> Totally and if every Millionaire in the world donated the small amount of say £10 or the equivalent for each country then poverty would be a thing of the past. The £10 would make zero difference to the Millionaire they probably make that in less than 10 seconds from interest from thier bank account and it would make a huge difference to all the poor homeless people of the world.


I have a much more effective strategy for public utility, involving everyone with a net worth over $5 million and enough guillotines.


----------



## SScorpio (Jul 30, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I have a much more effective strategy for public utility, involving everyone with a net worth over $5 million and enough guillotines.


Yes, screw all the people who worked hard and sacrificed to build a small company that supports themselves and a dozen workers and those workers' families. Or the farmers growing our food whose assets can easily go north of $10 million.

Just starting a career at 23, and sacrificing to max out a yearly 401K contribution with an average 8% return for 40 years so you can begin thinking about retirement at 63 will put you at the rich people are bad measurement.

Better to just be a bitter person living in mom's basement complaining online than making oneself a useful member of society.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Jul 31, 2022)

I think it is quite virtuous for SScorpio to say he'd never take back anything stolen from him. Truly, a pacifist we can all look up to.


----------



## Taleweaver (Jul 31, 2022)

I used to think that Trump was all talk and achieved nothing Then he incited a riot in the capital and I realised he at least achieved that.

And perhaps because of the anthics of the former, I tended to respect Boris Johnson. I didn't agree on brexit (still don't), but I somehow thought that he could at least find an agreement. And he did...
...which he attacked himself straight away, and pretended never to have agreed to it less than a year later.


As for more personal views: unions. Like...WTF? I was raised with the idea that they came up for employees, made sure wages were fair and the workload balanced. But on my first job, I at one point was pointed out that my colleague (still by far the laziest dude I've ever seen) was a union worker. Workload was little, yes, but I had three french colleagues (I also learned later that lazy dude had a Dutch mother...despite that, he never ever spoke a word in Dutch) for a 50-50 split work job -> I did as much (and more) than those three combined.
After some years I stopped my monthly contributions to the union. When they called me (when I was at the office, no less), I told them I was disgusted by some of their people's (lack of) work ethics.

Later I switched jobs (also partially because of dude, but that's another story). This was a new company that split off from a notoriously union-heavy company. With the former experience, I waved them off when they came to introduce themselves. However, workload continuously rised until the point where it was unworkable. I still can't bring myself to reach out to them, though.

On current job, I hear about how the union is simply against every attempt at innovation whatsoever. No agreements, no own demands, no responsibility...they're just "against" everything. To the point where my colleagues tend to dream of just proposing the opposite of what they want. Except they manage to be against proposal A and the opposite proposal as well.
This time I would've gone to them...but the unions are about all sorts of departments except mine. Besides: if they're against cameras aimed at the cash registers to ensure stealing doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum that this is invasion of privacy. Would make sense...but the job's on the airport: those guys monitor pretty much everyone 24/7.
So I don't think a "too much work" argument is going to get through to these clowns.


----------



## Jayro (Jul 31, 2022)

I was raised in conservative, christian households. I was told to hate gays, hate mexicans, vote red, and worship God.

But once I got out on my own, I realized how fucked up all that shit is. Why was I supposed to hate people I never even knew? Why vote for people that spew hatred from their hearts? Why worship some narcissistic space ghost? Now that I'm older and wiser, I've changed my mind on ALL of that negative stuff. I've realized 99% of ALL religions are bulllshit, conservatism is backwards-thinking and has no place in the modern world, and I'd rather love people than hate on them.

People can change, they just have to want to change. I had to unlearn so much racist bullshit, I still stereotype stuff without thinking sometimes, but I'm still learning. Never stop learning.


----------



## JaapDaniels (Jul 31, 2022)

Relegion, i came from a religious christian family...
Never saw that racism part that strong.I was teached that god loves us that the christian religion was love.
But the more i really came to see my fellow christians i came to notice that there never was love, there was common hate wich bounded people together.
Hate towards people thinking different about god, hate towards those who'd fallen in love with someone of thier own sex, hate towards those not spending thier money on gifting those less fortunate on the other side of the world...
Then i started to really read the bible on my own, and i got shocked, first part of the bible claims to be the first humans only got 2 sons, but that's messed up so either there's incest or it's beastiallety that created us?
The all seeing perfect God said when humans were the final part of creation it was perfect, just to whipe almost all humans of the earth later... Where is that love?
Okay later two childeren laughing for some old dude, die later on by 2 bears killing them brutally is something good for they laughed at a prophet?
Really where is that so called perfect loving beïng? for i couldn't find one story without corruption.
The comes the law about how to love one another is only allowed when it male female relation, with making children in mind, even that fucked up that if not followed you get a violent death.
Again, love?
Okay so it's like normal in the age of the bible to pay for a life partner that "loves" and "wants childeren at the age of 13, now comes the main prophet at that age, but wait a minute... no wife comes, only 12 friends who'd have a secret bounding that never really got explained...

Okay i came at the age girls got my eyes, one in particulary... She was also a christian...
When she started trusting me, she told me about her life, that it wasn't fun for her, not since soomeone else abused her...
She never told me who it was (i have my suspicion, but even if that suspicion is true it will not help).
it made her suicidal one time, using hard drugs another time... these things developed on thier own to more horrible stories...
but what made it really discusting were the people at church telling me behind her back that she was no good, that she did things wich were wrong, but never talked with her if she needed help.
The love didn't work out, but it left a mark in my mind.

Now when i got 19 a heard about a few years older person of my church hanging himself, he couldn't choose between religion and beeïng gay, but what really made me feel sick was what his parents said:
They tried to bring him to a christian shrink,  and called thier son sick beyond helping...

For i wanted still to beleve in the bible for it sounded so good when i was little, and i knew my parents would like the tradition to stay in family...
I tried every christian churge but they all had thier corruption, emptying me out.
i thought i red about different religions, but they either felt fake, or came down to the same corruption.

Greed (always talking about they're misiing thier 10% of your income)
Homophobia
Gossip (in the negative way as described about my first love)
Relegion can be anything but love it's the opposite.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 31, 2022)

Not sure that I particularly changed on anything. Was always taught to question everything. It is not hard to see every politico as a self serving moron.

Some things became more nuanced as more data became available, some greater understandings of things opened up some options for different/new solutions maybe, some problems got solved so as to be minor/watchdog level things rather than active measures needed (something many of those in those former active measures fields are grappling with as they fade into irrelevance and you need lawyers rather than firebrands and firestarters, with the latter ones often doing damage that the lawyers and firebrands capable of nuance* have to clean up -- those that cry racism and those that claim to represent the gay alphabet soup collective being very good examples of this as generally solved problems from where I sit), learned more of psychology and underpinning philosophies of various things that allows more effect debate/prediction of actions, learned more of economics that similarly opened up a few more outside the box options than the leave it to darwinism and pretend with are post scarcity despite being nothing of the sort extremes some go in for.

*which overwhelmingly tend to be new people rather than old hands.

Native religion was basically dead in the UK in the 1960s (if not earlier) so never had that to deal with, though seen the later death in the US when visiting that and what goes there. Generally go in for people as people, though in my case bikers with face tattoos are more likely to bring a spade at 4am than randoms on the street so taking people individually applying to a larger range is where that appeared from rather than this priest if a moron.


----------



## Creamu (Jul 31, 2022)

Arguementation is more effective than emotional appeal. It was foolish to believe so and now I know better.


----------



## SScorpio (Jul 31, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I think it is quite virtuous for SScorpio to say he'd never take back anything stolen from him. Truly, a pacifist we can all look up to.


Could you clarify the point you are trying to make about something being stolen? The only way I could figure out any type of theft was if you believe someone having money is stealing from you.

In societies that rely on the exchange of goods and services, people trade effort (labor) for things they want/need. Before monetary systems were in place people would do direct trades for example five chickens for a goat. A place to stay and food to eat for working in the fields.

Over time the concept of currency came about so you could trade your effort (working a job) for an intermediary item of change (money, gold, etc). And then trade the intermediary item for something you want/need.

People with advanced skills or knowledge were in demand and could earn more than someone who was a basic laborer. This allowed them to have wealth they didn't need to spend on immediate needs. This gave rise to the middle class for skilled trades like baker, blacksmith, or mason. These people would all need materials that were collected by basic laborers who would be paid for the materials they collected with their effort.

This system continues even today. Even in socialist and communist countries, in those countries, people generally have less of a choice in the matter of what labor they perform, or how much of anything they need/want. And elite people live lives of luxury while the common man struggles to get by.

In capitalist systems, people are generally free to pursue their own goals and ambitions. Though some people still decide to not work and are drains on society and just want to complain without generating any effort. In non-capitalist systems, these people are seen as undesirables and sent to prison work camps or just outright killed.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Jul 31, 2022)

"It's not theft if it's under capitalism!"
Considering our quality of life is built upon the slavery of others, not just in this country but many others, that's...not at all true LMAO


----------



## SScorpio (Jul 31, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> "It's not theft if it's under capitalism!"
> Considering our quality of life is built upon the slavery of others, not just in this country but many others, that's...not at all true LMAO


What country that has modern-day slavery is capitalist?

And sadly no, your mom making you go out and work your shift at McDonald's doesn't count.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Jul 31, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> What country that has modern-day slavery is capitalist?
> 
> And sadly no, your mom making you go out and work your shift at McDonald's doesn't count.


https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ng-cobalt-for-use-in-smartphones-says-amnesty

See, the reason I think capitalists are stupid isn't because their death cult ideology is built on the enslavement of the poor (though that is a factor!), it's also because many of our commodities are based on literal child labor and slavery, and were it not for them we straight up would not have these things. The instant you however suggest raising prices to source ethical labor or pay workers their dues, people get reaaaaaaaaaaaaaal tilted about it for some reason.

Maybe you just aren't experienced with the world, Scorpio. Would explain quite a few quirks of yours.

I remember being naive enough to think capitalism was fair. Then I stopped being 14.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Jul 31, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> What country that has modern-day slavery is capitalist?
> 
> And sadly no, your mom making you go out and work your shift at McDonald's doesn't count.



Have you looked at America with it's for profit industrial prison complex that contracts convicted felons to work for often times less than a dollar a day while they profit off the rest of the labor?

Have you looked into America's form of debt backed capitalism that causes people to be born already indebted to the state, forcing them to work as early as possible to start paying for things they should already have the right to acquire? 

What about these government backed corporations that enforce ridiculous rules and regulations and provide terrible workplace atmospheres while still paying barely above local living wages and entrapping workers into a never ending cycle of working themselves to death to pay off debt and barely making ends meet?

None of that seems like modern day slavery under a capitalist regime?

I grew up thinking America and religion, Christianity in particular, were sacred things, worthy of admiration and loyalty. It's indoctrinated throughout America's terrible education system, standing for the flag and reciting pointless half hymns as early as kindergarten. I grew up in a cult, often on the fringes of "acceptable" society, that severely scrutinized who was desirable and who wasn't, and unsurprisingly enough, many who were not straight white males and their clearly dominated all white families were shunned, in the name of politics and religion. 

These concepts are clearly born from greed and hunger for power. I've personally seen more Christian white backed institutions perform strict inclusion than any institution backed by people of another faith, ethnic background, or religious ideals. Growing up thinking that America and it's strong Christian overtones were a god send has caused me to take years to realize things like self worth (which was annihilated within my cult), solidarity, compassion, and open mindedness. 

This country is equal parts on a rise and a downfall; I almost fear what the eventual fallout and crumble of this society will look like.


----------



## SScorpio (Jul 31, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Maybe you just aren't experienced with the world, Scorpio. Would explain quite a few quirks of yours.
> 
> I remember being naive enough to think capitalism was fair. Then I stopped being 14.


Some additional insight into the world for you, most countries with "Democratic Republic" in their name are anything but.

Who ever taught you that capitalism was fair? It's not and never was, but it's still the best system out there. Go live elsewhere under the other systems you seem to talk up and see if you are still as free as you are today.




SyphenFreht said:


> Have you looked at America with it's for profit industrial prison complex that contracts convicted felons to work for often times less than a dollar a day while they profit off the rest of the labor?


I have, and what else do you propose we do with inmates? The average across the US to incarcerate one inmate for a year is $31,307, though New York runs between $50-60,000. Inmates are a burden on society first by causing harm for their initial crime, and then the ongoing upkeep. The criminal justice reforms keeping people out of prison don't seem to be working as people arrested and then released go on to commit additional crimes.




SyphenFreht said:


> Have you looked into America's form of debt backed capitalism that causes people to be born already indebted to the state, forcing them to work as early as possible to start paying for things they should already have the right to acquire?
> 
> What about these government backed corporations that enforce ridiculous rules and regulations and provide terrible workplace atmospheres while still paying barely above local living wages and entrapping workers into a never ending cycle of working themselves to death to pay off debt and barely making ends meet?
> 
> None of that seems like modern day slavery under a capitalist regime?


What right does one man have to the sweat of the brow of another? And no that doesn't sound like slavery. No one is forcing you to do any one job.

Your ability to feel that shows how insulated from true hardship. And you haven't experienced true slavery where another person is fully owned and controlled by another while being made out to be subhuman.

You could always join a hippie commune with other like-minded people. Just don't be an asshole like Bernie Sanders who reported was always there at mealtime, but was nowhere to be found when there was work to do.




SyphenFreht said:


> I grew up thinking America and religion, Christianity in particular, were sacred things, worthy of admiration and loyalty. It's indoctrinated throughout America's terrible education system, standing for the flag and reciting pointless half hymns as early as kindergarten. I grew up in a cult, often on the fringes of "acceptable" society, that severely scrutinized who was desirable and who wasn't, and unsurprisingly enough, many who were not straight white males and their clearly dominated all white families were shunned, in the name of politics and religion.
> 
> These concepts are clearly born from greed and hunger for power. I've personally seen more Christian white backed institutions perform strict inclusion than any institution backed by people of another faith, ethnic background, or religious ideals. Growing up thinking that America and it's strong Christian overtones were a god send has caused me to take years to realize things like self worth (which was annihilated within my cult), solidarity, compassion, and open mindedness.
> 
> This country is equal parts on a rise and a downfall; I almost fear what the eventual fallout and crumble of this society will look like.


So Mormon? Did you keep any of the magic underwear?

Looking at past empires the US's dominant position is at a point where historically it would decline. But the world has changed, the US would decline slightly and then just level out and go on for hundreds of more years rather than being a failed state. We could also be headed to another civil war where some states want to leave the union.

Try to prepare yourself and your family for whatever tomorrow may bring. Educate yourself in both knowledge and use skills allowing you to build, repair, and create things. This would allow you into other groups if the country broke down into a series of numerous enclaves.

Go take a yearly one-week trip out into nature without electronics. Unplugging will both cleanse your soul and put things into perspective helping you figure out what stuff actually does and doesn't matter. It will also keep you trained to navigate a societal fall.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Jul 31, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> I have, and what else do you propose we do with inmates? The average across the US to incarcerate one inmate for a year is $31,307, though New York runs between $50-60,000. Inmates are a burden on society first by causing harm for their initial crime, and then the ongoing upkeep. The criminal justice reforms keeping people out of prison don't seem to be working as people arrested and then released go on to commit additional crimes.



Rehabilitation, not an excuse for cheap labor. The way the inmates are treated in that aspect is basically child labor/sweatshops. Although, I guess that's to be expected when you design a prison system around grooming repeat offenders so you can continue profiting off of them. That's why housing inmates cost so much; they go for the highest bidder so they can make a profit. It's like capitalism, but with modern slavery.




SScorpio said:


> What right does one man have to the sweat of the brow of another? And no that doesn't sound like slavery. No one is forcing you to do any one job.
> 
> Your ability to feel that shows how insulated from true hardship. And you haven't experienced true slavery where another person is fully owned and controlled by another while being made out to be subhuman.
> 
> You could always join a hippie commune with other like-minded people. Just don't be an asshole like Bernie Sanders who reported was always there at mealtime, but was nowhere to be found when there was work to do.



No one might be forcing you to do said job, but there are many things a job can do to make you feel trapped, especially if the local standard of living is suppressing through having higher living costs and frequent turnover rates. And education? That's almost non-existent anymore. 

We're not arguing true slavery, are we? The term used was "modernized"



SScorpio said:


> So Mormon? Did you keep any of the magic underwear?
> 
> Looking at past empires the US's dominant position is at a point where historically it would decline. But the world has changed, the US would decline slightly and then just level out and go on for hundreds of more years rather than being a failed state. We could also be headed to another civil war where some states want to leave the union.
> 
> ...



Ew, no. Thank God I wasn't raised Mormon.

I frequently do go on nature walks and put up tech boundaries. The emergence and evolution of tech over the years has taught people to only care about themselves, and too much of it desensitizes the soul and creates unwavering opinions based upon falsified idealogies.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 31, 2022)

Last year I was reminded of a post I made several years back. The post read, "Genderfluid isn't real, it's just women trying to get attention." Years later, I realized just how much of a cope that really was and I've since come out as genderfluid.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 1, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Last year I was reminded of a post I made several years back. The post read, "Genderfluid isn't real, it's just women trying to get attention." Years later, I realized just how much of a cope that really was and I've since come out as genderfluid.


based and gender abolitionistpilled. I was the biggest transphobe imaginable, and now I am, instead, the most loudly trans person in the world. 

Mark Twain had a quote I don't remember, something about how the worst loneliness is not being able to love yourself or some shit. It's quite true!


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 1, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> based and gender abolitionistpilled. I was the biggest transphobe imaginable, and now I am, instead, the most loudly trans person in the world.
> 
> Mark Twain had a quote I don't remember, something about how the worst loneliness is not being able to love yourself or some shit. It's quite true!


I was a bit of a radfem and Tankie in high school. I really believed trans women were just performative men trying to prey on women and trans men were just broken women. I believed they weren’t worth respecting. But times makes fools of all of us and we eventually grow up. Eventually, I realized my transphobia was based on garbage logic and junk science. I also eventually realized that it was just a cope because I couldn’t accept myself as trans. 
I am happy to have figured myself out, even if that means it comes with a mess of words. I think it’s better that I have some many terms to best describe me these days. I am a happy little masc genderfluid catboy. I am also happy little Anarcho-Communist that finally realized that Authoritarians aren’t allies and aren’t worth trying to make peace with.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 1, 2022)

Oh no, you have become my rival. I am a socdem.

I'm sorry, Catboy. We must duel to determine the successor of our ideologies.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 1, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Oh no, you have become my rival. I am a socdem.
> 
> I'm sorry, Catboy. We must duel to determine the successor of our ideologies.


I am very smol and very cute, best you gonna get is a


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 1, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I am very smol and very cute, best you gonna get is a


I am tall, loud, and goth. I challenge you to a duel in Guilty Gear XX Accent Core + R featuring Rollback Netcode and Sol Badguy from the Guilty Gear series.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 1, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I am tall, loud, and goth. I challenge you to a duel in Guilty Gear XX Accent Core + R featuring Rollback Netcode and Sol Badguy from the Guilty Gear series.


Hear me out~ I am smol and bad at fighting game




(I am literally 5’4)


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 2, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Hear me out~ I am smol and bad at fighting game





The Catboy said:


> (I am literally 5’4)


but... dem small hurtboxes tho. You win if your opponent can't hit you


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> but... dem small hurtboxes tho. You win if your opponent can't hit you


Yooo! I didn’t consider that idea!


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 2, 2022)

I used to think that everyone had the same basic capacity for reasoning, empathy, and justice, but then I joined this forum! Gods help us all!



SScorpio said:


> Some additional insight into the world for you, most countries with "Democratic Republic" in their name are anything but.
> 
> Who ever taught you that capitalism was fair? It's not and never was, but it's still the best system out there. Go live elsewhere under the other systems you seem to talk up and see if you are still as free as you are today.


So... the only form of government you recognize as good enough is something you see as unfair by design? And you're just cool with this? Sounds like somebody is suffering from a lack of empathy for those less fortunate and boomerish "Got mine f u"-itis.



SScorpio said:


> I have, and what else do you propose we do with inmates? The average across the US to incarcerate one inmate for a year is $31,307, though New York runs between $50-60,000. Inmates are a burden on society first by causing harm for their initial crime, and then the ongoing upkeep. The criminal justice reforms keeping people out of prison don't seem to be working as people arrested and then released go on to commit additional crimes.


This just hurts to read. In other countries, they pay less and have fewer repeat offenders BECAUSE of criminal justice reforms we want but don't have. The problem is our safety nets, work release programs, lack of mental services for the incarcerated, and the deadly stigma of being a former inmate when trying to rebuild one's life.



SScorpio said:


> What right does one man have to the sweat of the brow of another? And no that doesn't sound like slavery. No one is forcing you to do any one job.
> 
> Your ability to feel that shows how insulated from true hardship. And you haven't experienced true slavery where another person is fully owned and controlled by another while being made out to be subhuman.


You're kinda dumb if you can't understand he wasn't talking about LITERAL CHAINS AND LASHES SLAVERY when he was discussing the theft of value from the masses. Folk might not be envying Kunta Kinte as they watch 30 minutes of Roots on dvd in their rathole apartment they can barely afford at night between jobs, but the number of people who can never even hope to join the middle class let alone dig themselves out of debts is growing quickly and spoiler alert! There's enough resources to go around but the rich don't care to share and don't work near as hard to monopolize their markets. It isn't theft from one's hands but the manipulation of capitalism to accumulate stunning levels of wealth in few hands just for having a bigger share in the first place that is the theft he's talking about, but I guess economics is obviously a concept you aren't able to grasp considering your reply.



SScorpio said:


> You could always join a hippie commune with other like-minded people. Just don't be an asshole like Bernie Sanders who reported was always there at mealtime, but was nowhere to be found when there was work to do.


Land isn't free. Travel isn't free. Love is free but you've gotta find time between work to get it and people have less time every year as they struggle in the same jobs as their parents yet can barely afford the basic essentials. Also... wtf are you on about with Bernie?



SScorpio said:


> So Mormon? Did you keep any of the magic underwear?
> 
> Looking at past empires the US's dominant position is at a point where historically it would decline. But the world has changed, the US would decline slightly and then just level out and go on for hundreds of more years rather than being a failed state. We could also be headed to another civil war where some states want to leave the union.
> 
> ...


Wait, is the US going to go into Civil War or just decline slightly? You can't have your cake and doom it too, its either doing better or not... if you'd like my opinion, there was a cool poll some beautiful individual threw up on these boards not too long ago that asked the patrons here about it! =3

I would encourage you to educate yourself, use your skills and experiences to better your communities now so they're more resilient should anything bad ever happen, and welcome any chance to include those outside your usual comfort zone to participate so as to broaden your horizons and expectations!



Nothereed said:


> but... dem small hurtboxes tho. You win if your opponent can't hit you


Osnap, Catboy was built for Danmaku?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 2, 2022)

When capitalists say they have no empathy and that the whole world should revolve around their system of apathetic suffering, it's kind of a self report on their part, not an actual understanding of human nature.


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 2, 2022)

Leaving aside that it is probably a strawman there. So care about yourself, your partner, your children, your family, your tribe to lesser and lesser degrees (some might leapfrog one or two places depending) and after that biology gets a bit meh that is someone else's problem?
That is pretty much all non sociopathic (which seems to be a fairly fixed percentage) human nature, can shortcut it to a lesser degree with some kind of parasocial relationship and appeals to signalled good for low investment cost* (see most advertising for charities and model they run in said same).

*nobody other than demented old people give all their money away to charities while alive/still needing it and risk bankruptcy there, few more attempt some kind of non profit** and go pop accordingly and were not necessarily the sanest/paragons of logic and reason themselves. To say nothing of some places being able to call such things in for the purposes of tax avoidance.

**think my favourite recently was some would be lawyer was attempting to pass the background checks required for that (character and fitness being the usual US term) and it became apparent she had oodles of student debt (go America) but was planning on some kind of non profit/serving the community career that would never have paid it off (ye boring and basic law firm salary would have though). She consequently failed as pointedly not paying back your debts despite ready capability to do so is an immoral act.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 2, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> As I got older, I came to fully respect and back the blue. They do an absolutely thankless job, they are subject to massive unjustified hate and scorn, and would be the first people to actually come save someone if they needed help.


Gross.  Their "thankless" job gets them all sorts of free shit and bootlickers constantly thanking them for their "service."  The hate and scorn is absolutely justified from the thousand people they kill yearly while playing judge jury and executioner, not to mention roughly three times as many murdered pets.  And if you honestly believe cops prevent crime you need to re-watch the Uvalde footage.  They're trained to respond to crimes AFTER they've been committed, and that's all.

My position on police actually flipped the other way around, I'm pretty sure I even went through a phase where I wanted to be a cop when I was little.  Then as a teen I learned that they're mostly high school dropouts, and 40% admit to being domestic abusers.  The more you research the history of police in the US, the worse it gets.  It's a job tailor made almost exclusively for narcissists and sociopaths, the good cops get fired for reporting the bad ones.


----------



## Windaga (Aug 2, 2022)

That experience and age equate to wisdom and knowledge. I come from a very authoritative, hierarchal household and culture - elders were to be blindly respected. I legitimately grew up thinking adults always knew what was best, and that the older generations were always to be respected.

Then I started working with children, and by extension, their parents. Imagine my surprise when I realized that adults are literally just older children. I've been doing this for almost 14 years now, yet every semester, there's always that one stand out case with a parent or guardian that really makes me question how the hell we've made it this far.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 2, 2022)

I supported more conservative beliefs then supported more left wing beliefs and a little more center


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 2, 2022)

AmandaRose said:


> Totally and if every Millionaire in the world donated the small amount of say £10 or the equivalent for each country then poverty would be a thing of the past. The £10 would make zero difference to the Millionaire they probably make that in less than 10 seconds from interest from thier bank account and it would make a huge difference to all the poor homeless people of the world.


Free money does not make poor people not poor. Also, forced charity is not charity. That's why despite all of the social programs  in the US and UK, we still have a huge homeless problem. Here in the US, it is only getting worse.

Being homeless is a state of mind more than anything. Chris Gardner was homeless as a single father and he changed his circumstances and became a millionaire as depicted in the movie The Pursuit of Happyness starring Will Smith.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 2, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> Have you looked at America with it's for profit industrial prison complex that contracts convicted felons to work for often times less than a dollar a day while they profit off the rest of the labor?
> 
> Have you looked into America's form of debt backed capitalism that causes people to be born already indebted to the state, forcing them to work as early as possible to start paying for things they should already have the right to acquire?
> 
> ...


Have you looked into how the current Vice President kept people in jail past their sentences for the free labor or how the 1994 Crime Bill incarcerated a record number of black men for free labor? The prison system is one of the few areas that should not have been privatized. That was a huge mistake that we let slip right past us when many of us were still asleep.

Have you looked into how the central banking system, not capitalism, has made us all debt slaves?

I agree. Amazon is a horrible leftwing corporation.

I agree, our education system is one of the worse. More than 160 teachers have been indicted on child sex abuse charges.

The "elites" are in a downward spiral. The People are on the rise. As it should be. We are waking up globally.


----------



## AncientBoi (Aug 2, 2022)

A Top. Because I'm tired of being a Bottom.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 2, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Have you looked into how the current Vice President kept people in jail past their sentences for the free labor or how the 1994 Crime Bill incarcerated a record number of black men for free labor? The prison system is one of the few areas that should not have been privatized. That was a huge mistake that we let slip right past us when many of us were still asleep.



No, I haven't, but that's deplorable regardless of party affiliation, especially for Democrats, and that shouldn't be left not dealt with. And I agree; the current state of the for prison system is an abomination, but a direct result of an overarching capitalist society that places more value on a person's contribution to society than on their life. And that's been a staple through both sides of the political system.



TraderPatTX said:


> Have you looked into how the central banking system, not capitalism, has made us all debt slaves?



The Federal Reserve Bank has profited because of capitalism, not despite it. Ever wondered why many countries still refuse to adopt modern capitalist ideals and therefore refuse to trade with America? Don't get me wrong; the Bank will profit regardless, but capitalism is not a stint in it's fingers. If anything, it's an advocate.



TraderPatTX said:


> I agree. Amazon is a horrible leftwing corporation.



Last I heard Bezos was Libertarian. 



TraderPatTX said:


> I agree, our education system is one of the worse. More than 160 teachers have been indicted on child sex abuse charges.



That's a major issue, but only one of many that riddles the current system.



TraderPatTX said:


> The "elites" are in a downward spiral. The People are on the rise. As it should be. We are waking up globally.



You're not wrong but the elites are still keeping us divided, especially along red and blue lines. Instead of highlighting one or the other, both need to be overturned.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 2, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Gross.  Their "thankless" job gets them all sorts of free shit and bootlickers constantly thanking them for their "service."  The hate and scorn is absolutely justified from the thousand people they kill yearly while playing judge jury and executioner, not to mention roughly three times as many murdered pets.  And if you honestly believe cops prevent crime you need to re-watch the Uvalde footage.  They're trained to respond to crimes AFTER they've been committed, and that's all.
> 
> My position on police actually flipped the other way around, I'm pretty sure I even went through a phase where I wanted to be a cop when I was little.  Then as a teen I learned that they're mostly high school dropouts, and 40% admit to being domestic abusers.  The more you research the history of police in the US, the worse it gets.  It's a job tailor made almost exclusively for narcissists and sociopaths, the good cops get fired for reporting the bad ones.


No no you don't understand, you should always thank the job that is allowed to shoot you and get away with it due to police unions, and literally had laws in place not even a hundred years ago that objectively prevented you and even outright criminalized you for not portraying them as heroes 100% of the time in media.



TraderPatTX said:


> Have you looked into how the current Vice President kept people in jail past their sentences for the free labor or how the 1994 Crime Bill incarcerated a record number of black men for free labor? The prison system is one of the few areas that should not have been privatized. That was a huge mistake that we let slip right past us when many of us were still asleep.
> 
> Have you looked into how the central banking system, not capitalism, has made us all debt slaves?


These are the only true parts of your post. Leftists *hate* Biden and Kamala, because they're both the establishment to a T. They're just less destructive to the nation than Trump was while in power. Everything below these parts of your post however is objectively false.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 2, 2022)

holy shit why can i not delete my own POST

placeholder post for multi-quote use in edits i fucking guess!!!!


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 3, 2022)

Kansas might have taught me that the nation isn't as anti-choice as I thought.


----------



## Iamapirate (Aug 3, 2022)

Most of them. Growing up I was a fairly left wing atheist. Then I started thinking more critically and became a right wing atheist. I'd say one position that best embodies this is abortion. I was once in denial and using the same rhetoric until I was forced to look at it for what it is, the barbaric killing of an innocent human being.


----------



## Dark_Phoras (Aug 3, 2022)

Iamapirate said:


> Most of them. Growing up I was a fairly left wing atheist. Then I started thinking more critically and became a right wing atheist. I'd say one position that best embodies this is abortion. I was once in denial and using the same rhetoric until I was forced to look at it for what it is, the barbaric killing of an innocent human being.



What was your rethoric then and what's your rethoric now on abortion?


----------



## Iamapirate (Aug 3, 2022)

Dark_Phoras said:


> What was your rethoric then and what's your rethoric now on abortion?


Pretty much from generic pro choice to generic pro life


----------



## Dark_Phoras (Aug 3, 2022)

Iamapirate said:


> Pretty much from generic pro choice to generic pro life



So, did you think it through or did you choose your position because it contributed to the build of who you are as a person?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 3, 2022)

Iamapirate said:


> Most of them. Growing up I was a fairly left wing atheist. Then I started thinking more critically and became a right wing atheist. I'd say one position that best embodies this is abortion. I was once in denial and using the same rhetoric until I was forced to look at it for what it is, the barbaric killing of an innocent human being.


For someone flexing their "critical thinking skills" you sure do seem interested in posturing with your stance instead of just stating it.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 4, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> No, I haven't, but that's deplorable regardless of party affiliation, especially for Democrats, and that shouldn't be left not dealt with. And I agree; the current state of the for prison system is an abomination, but a direct result of an overarching capitalist society that places more value on a person's contribution to society than on their life. And that's been a staple through both sides of the political system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then you weren't paying attention during the 2020 Democrat primaries. There were many reasons why Kamala received less than 1% of the vote. That was just one.

WTF are you even talking about. The central bankers have made citizens in every single country around the globe debt slaves. It doesn't matter if that country has a capitalist economic system or a socialist one.

Bezos is a crony capitalist. The kind of capitalist you lump all capitalists with so you can bring in socialism.

The "elites" have been dividing us every which way we allow them to. Either by party affiliation, income level, gender, race, sexuality, where we live, etc etc. And we keep falling for it. As for the two parties, though not ideal, we are stuck with them. It sucks that the communists and fascists have taken over the Democrat Party, but at least almost all of the RINO's are losing in their primaries. The People are overwhelming the polls and the RINO's are unable to cheat enough to overcome it.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 4, 2022)

The "elites have been dividing us on every single line ever" talking point is a very stupid one, because it is ironically more divisive than any other. The divisions in society along racial, sexual, gender, and class lines are very real, and they aren't going to go away with us ignoring them. We have to do something about them, and no amount of arbitrary tying of our living conditions to wage slavery and commodification is going to magically equalize people. "Crony capitalism" isn't real, it is in the words of the creator of capitalism as well as all of its critics, the end goal of capitalism: consolidation of power.

In capitalism, wealth is political power, naturally a system built on arbitrary competition and debt slavery is going to lead to power going to those born into wealth rather than those the system is built upon, the lowest classes, which is why it'd be fucking moronic beyond words (not to mention pretty cucked) to want to build a new system of life around the same oppressive system, but with even LESS regulations for the people in power, the corporations and the 1%.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 4, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Then you weren't paying attention during the 2020 Democrat primaries. There were many reasons why Kamala received less than 1% of the vote. That was just one.



Probably not. I didn't care for either candidate. 

You would think after pointing out all the low percentages Kamala and Biden got from their parties alone you'd learn to separate the grouping of most Democrats from the two. 



TraderPatTX said:


> WTF are you even talking about. The central bankers have made citizens in every single country around the globe debt slaves. It doesn't matter if that country has a capitalist economic system or a socialist one.



Citizens, moreso than entire governments. Anyone can willingly indebt themselves, but there are quite a few countries that actively pushback against the Federal Reserve Bank. 

I'm curious. If you know the FRB is such a big deal, why are you constantly caught up with red v blue debates? Seems like you're purposely misguiding yourself when you're already so close to the answer. 



TraderPatTX said:


> Bezos is a crony capitalist. The kind of capitalist you lump all capitalists with so you can bring in socialism.



What's so bad about socialism again?



TraderPatTX said:


> The "elites" have been dividing us every which way we allow them to. Either by party affiliation, income level, gender, race, sexuality, where we live, etc etc. And we keep falling for it. As for the two parties, though not ideal, we are stuck with them. It sucks that the communists and fascists have taken over the Democrat Party, but at least almost all of the RINO's are losing in their primaries. The People are overwhelming the polls and the RINO's are unable to cheat enough to overcome it.



Jesus you can't see the forest for the trees. How are we stuck in a bipartisan situation? Wouldn't just voting a third party into office fix that? Or are we going to try and blame that on Democrats and RINOs too? You're very selectively in your blame for being so anti political establishment.


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 4, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> Jesus you can't see the forest for the trees. How are we stuck in a bipartisan situation? Wouldn't just voting a third party into office fix that? Or are we going to try and blame that on Democrats and RINOs too? You're very selectively in your blame for being so anti political establishment.


You act like that's the easiest thing in the world. You may be too young to remember Ross Perot who IMO came the closest. And they dirty stuff that went in on public acts to his family.

Trump was a 3rd party candidate who high-jacked the Republican party. You may want to read up on his campaign as it's politically very interesting. Before announcing his run he met with former President Bill Clinton and chatted about a run and Bill's opinion on the odds a 3rd party candidate could win. Bill didn't think it was possible as it would just slip one of the parties' votes down the middle giving the other party an easy victory. This exact thing happened with Ralph Nader's runs.

Before running for office Trump was politically a Democrat and donated heavily to Democrat candidates. However, Trump's platform tested more favorably with Republicans so the decision was made to run as a Republican. I'm sure the undemocratic delegate vs super delegate BS the Democrats have that doesn't allow simple majorities to choose their party candidate was also heavily taken into account.

Also, review Trump's full run and he was constantly butting heads with the Republicans controlling the house and senate. The Republican establishment hated Trump.


----------



## appleburger (Aug 4, 2022)

I also completely flipped on whether or not Die Hard is a Christmas movie - always thought it was silly to call it one.

This page won me over: https://stephenfollows.com/using-data-to-determine-if-die-hard-is-a-christmas-movie/


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 4, 2022)

appleburger said:


> I also completely flipped on whether or not Die Hard is a Christmas movie - always thought it was silly to call it one.
> 
> This page won me over: https://stephenfollows.com/using-data-to-determine-if-die-hard-is-a-christmas-movie/


Now, what about Batman Returns being a Christmas movie?

Or the Yakuza games all taking place around Christmas time?


----------



## chrisrlink (Aug 5, 2022)

i'd say destroy the human species and start the evolution process anew because of our superior intelect we have became a corrupt species i was never for the end of humanity but after DJT i''m like f-   it we failed as the top species on earth we are the only species that has a direct impact on our environment,onlly ones that murder/killl for the hell of it etc etc


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 5, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> undemocratic


*constitutional republic
:^)


----------



## KitChan (Aug 5, 2022)

I thought reading this thread would be a waste of time. But it's made me understand and appreciate some of my fellow Tempers a little more ❤


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 5, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> i'd say destroy the human species and start the evolution process anew because of our superior intelect we have became a corrupt species i was never for the end of humanity but after DJT i''m like f-   it we failed as the top species on earth we are the only species that has a direct impact on our environment,onlly ones that murder/killl for the hell of it etc etc


What? Plenty of animals and insects will destroy their natural environments over time. No species has some magical equilibrium where everything is just perfect.

You might want to research animals more, chimps and dolphins both murder for fun. I'm sure there are many others as well but I know of those off the top of my head.


----------



## appleburger (Aug 6, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Now, what about Batman Returns being a Christmas movie?
> 
> Or the Yakuza games all taking place around Christmas time?


My instinct would be no, but I don’t trust my own judgment on making these calls with movies anymore lol


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 9, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> The "elites have been dividing us on every single line ever" talking point is a very stupid one, because it is ironically more divisive than any other. The divisions in society along racial, sexual, gender, and class lines are very real, and they aren't going to go away with us ignoring them. We have to do something about them, and no amount of arbitrary tying of our living conditions to wage slavery and commodification is going to magically equalize people. "Crony capitalism" isn't real, it is in the words of the creator of capitalism as well as all of its critics, the end goal of capitalism: consolidation of power.
> 
> In capitalism, wealth is political power, naturally a system built on arbitrary competition and debt slavery is going to lead to power going to those born into wealth rather than those the system is built upon, the lowest classes, which is why it'd be fucking moronic beyond words (not to mention pretty cucked) to want to build a new system of life around the same oppressive system, but with even LESS regulations for the people in power, the corporations and the 1%.


If the goal of capitalism is the consolidation of power, then why are only socialists, ie. communists and fascists, the ones who consolidate power?

And if consolidation of power is such a concern to you, then why are you against decentralization of power from the federal government back to the states where it belongs?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 9, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> Probably not. I didn't care for either candidate.
> 
> You would think after pointing out all the low percentages Kamala and Biden got from their parties alone you'd learn to separate the grouping of most Democrats from the two.
> 
> ...


The countries that pushed back against the central bankers were Iraq and Libya. Remind me what happened to their leaders.

Socialism is a garbage ideology for rich people and college students.

How am I selective in my blame when I continuously blame Dems and RINO's?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 9, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If the goal of capitalism is the consolidation of power, then why are only socialists, ie. communists and fascists, the ones who consolidate power?
> 
> And if consolidation of power is such a concern to you, then why are you against decentralization of power from the federal government back to the states where it belongs?


To the first, factually incorrect because socialists have been and regularly still are killed by the state, even in other countries, for daring to speak out. Weird, huh?

To the second, you can support decentralization of power while also acknowledging some states will enforce objectively bad laws. I am historically read, you aren't. So given that I know Goldwater, a fucking Republican, opposed the Civil Rights Act because he wanted it to be a "States' rights" issue, I have zero reason to suspect that individual states, given the stark conspiracy theories and far right nonsense present in many of them, can be trusted to uphold the rights and liberties of various minorities.

When they demonstrate that they aren't reliant on the government to *function*, then those states can be "independent."


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> To the first, factually incorrect because socialists have been and regularly still are killed by the state, even in other countries, for daring to speak out. Weird, huh?
> 
> To the second, you can support decentralization of power while also acknowledging some states will enforce objectively bad laws. I am historically read, you aren't. So given that I know Goldwater, a fucking Republican, opposed the Civil Rights Act because he wanted it to be a "States' rights" issue, I have zero reason to suspect that individual states, given the stark conspiracy theories and far right nonsense present in many of them, can be trusted to uphold the rights and liberties of various minorities.
> 
> When they demonstrate that they aren't reliant on the government to *function*, then those states can be "independent."


You should read up on who Hitler, Stalin, Mao, PolPot and Castro killed so you don't look uneducated.

That's a lot of words to say you desire the centralization of power in the federal government.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You should read up on who Hitler, Stalin, Mao, PolPot and Castro killed so you don't look uneducated.
> 
> That's a lot of words to say you desire the centralization of power in the federal government.


Yes I know it upsets you that I don't want bigotry enforceable by states. You'll get over it.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Yes I know it upsets you that I don't want bigotry enforceable by states. You'll get over it.


Instead we get bigotry enforced by the federal government.

You can never claim to be against a centralized authoritarian government on this site ever again.

PS - I noticed you ignored the part about who fascists and communists kill, because you know I'm right. It's ok, you can admit it for everybody to see. I promise I won't gloat.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 11, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Instead we get bigotry enforced by the federal government.
> 
> You can never claim to be against a centralized authoritarian government on this site ever again.
> 
> PS - I noticed you ignored the part about who fascists and communists kill, because you know I'm right. It's ok, you can admit it for everybody to see. I promise I won't gloat.


Capitalists kill too, but you don't get upset about that ideology. Random people of random ideologies killing people does not reflect on any ideology, be it christianity, capitalism, anarchy, minarchy, and so on.

I hold positions of minimizing bigotry, and the best vector to do that is to override the bigoted states that we both know exist, and force them to support civil rights whether they like it or not. We've done it for years, even to other countries, so unless you oppose the civil rights act (which would be a very, very stupid thing to do) I hope you have a better objection to my position than "durr you can't oppose bigotry at a national level."

I am still against fascism btw :^)


----------



## MariArch (Aug 11, 2022)

Sending aid to Ukraine. Sorry, but we shouldn't be sending money or intervening anywhere. Idk why were morally obligated to send our money to a government that was considered super duper corrupt until 5 minutes ago. This shit is just a front for globalists to get us into more endless conflict.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 12, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Capitalists kill too, but you don't get upset about that ideology. Random people of random ideologies killing people does not reflect on any ideology, be it christianity, capitalism, anarchy, minarchy, and so on.
> 
> I hold positions of minimizing bigotry, and the best vector to do that is to override the bigoted states that we both know exist, and force them to support civil rights whether they like it or not. We've done it for years, even to other countries, so unless you oppose the civil rights act (which would be a very, very stupid thing to do) I hope you have a better objection to my position than "durr you can't oppose bigotry at a national level."
> 
> I am still against fascism btw :^)


Capitalism is an economic model. Fascism and communism are governmental model and are responsible for over 100 million deaths in just the 20th century alone. Learn the difference. You sound like an idiot comparing different models.

I know you are pro-fascism because you cheer on the current regime as they collude with Big Pharma, Big Tech and the corporate. You cheer when corporations push the government's propaganda. What's the marriage between government and private enterprise called again? Oh right, fascism. Own it buddy. It's all your's.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 12, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Capitalism is an economic model. Fascism and communism are governmental model


False, capitalism and communism are resource models (methods of allocating resources). Fascism and Democracy are governing ones.
In captalism, it deffer to who has the most money for allocation of resources (CEO's, hands of the few) In communism, it deffers to the hands of the many, or the public. If your going to make the resource wasting argument, capitalism already does that a thousand times over. 

maybe stop listening to tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro and actually read up on what your fighting against.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 12, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> False, capitalism and communism are resource models (methods of allocating resources). Fascism and Democracy are governing ones.
> In captalism, it deffer to who has the most money for allocation of resources (CEO's, hands of the few) In communism, it deffers to the hands of the many, or the public. If your going to make the resource wasting argument, capitalism already does that a thousand times over.
> 
> maybe stop listening to tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro and actually read up on what your fighting against.


See the difference between Trader and any leftist is that a leftist can have a conversation without randomly crying about nazis, where as he literally cannot have a conversation on ANYTHING without breaking down into tears over Biden.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 12, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> False, capitalism and communism are resource models (methods of allocating resources). Fascism and Democracy are governing ones.


Capitalism and socialism are the resource models, otherwise called an economy. Fascism, communism and democracy are governing models. I give you partial credit.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 12, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> otherwise called an economy


Economies are specific to capitalism only. So no. Because economies are based off of monetary resources being traded.



TraderPatTX said:


> Fascism, communism and democracy are governing models.


Also no. Socialism is the means to get to communism. As a result communism is again. A resource model.
(Some people want to just have socialism
Edit: this is bit of a belief.

 But it can't stick long term due to capitalists invetibly just breaking the system again by gaining control over whatever governing body is present through monitary means)
 (Essentially socialism, progressively decentralizing the system.(moving goods, how things are handled in a capitalist framework)
 that when the time comes that it can be safely removed( captalism entirely) without causing infrastructure to crumble. Since captalism has absolutely no overhead as a cost cutting measure)

If you really REALLY believe what your saying. Explain what communism, democracy, and facism are. In your own words. Since they should be destinct. And you should have no trouble making a description of it.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 12, 2022)

(There are market socialists [like me! hello!!] who believe capitalism and socialist policies can co-exist, communism is not necessarily the ultimate end goal. We just don't have to live in a system where you either work or starve with so much excess production.)


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 12, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> (There are market socialists [like me! hello!!] who believe capitalism and socialist policies can co-exist, communism is not necessarily the ultimate end goal. We just don't have to live in a system where you either work or starve with so much excess production.)


I support your views.mostly. I probably should of stated that *I* don't think it would last. I see it (communism)as the ultimate end goal. But I know that others don't. At the end of the day I just want a working democracy, and littearly anything better than this (capitalism) system. Even yours. I'd be content with it.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 12, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> I support your views.mostly. I probably should of stated that *I* don't think it would last. I see it (communism)as the ultimate end goal. But I know that others don't. At the end of the day I just want a working democracy, and littearly anything better than this (capitalism) system. Even yours. I'd be content with it.


Yeah, this is why I like leftist discourse, because ultimately we want the same goal (a better and ethical life) so our discussions on it (presuming no tankies are involved, but they aren't leftists as much as they pretend to be) end up in places like "Let's just focus on making shit better and we can go for what comes after capitalism."


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 12, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Economies are specific to capitalism only. So no. Because economies are based off of monetary resources being traded.
> 
> 
> Also no. Socialism is the means to get to communism. As a result communism is again. A resource model.
> ...


This is so dumb, it brings me physical pain to even read it, much less having to respond to it.

If economies are specific to capitalism only and based off of monetary resources, then explain the following:
Soviet rubles
Cuban pesos
Venezuelan bolivars
Chinese yuans
North Korean wons

If you can't even understand the basics, I'm not going to waste time explaining other basics to you. Do me a favor and don't reply to me and waste my time with idiocy. In fact, just don't reply to me at all.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 12, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Yeah, this is why I like leftist discourse, because ultimately we want the same goal (a better and ethical life) so our discussions on it (presuming no tankies are involved, but they aren't leftists as much as they pretend to be) end up in places like "Let's just focus on making shit better and we can go for what comes after capitalism."


The problem with the left is that you equate capitalism with the central banking system. They are in fact, not the same.

It continues to amaze me watching you all rail against corporations, which there are many, but refuse to talk about the select few central bankers who control the actual money supply. I've seen you people actually defend central banks even with the knowledge that they start wars and lend money to both sides to make sure they never lose. They have devalued our currency for over a hundred years.

You guys can't see the forest for the trees because the state-run corporate media (fascism) tells you where to focus your attention. Don't let them program you, program yourself. We have common ground here. All you have to do is recognize it. A united country and world is what they fear most.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 12, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The problem with the left is that you equate capitalism with the central banking system. They are in fact, not the same.
> 
> It continues to amaze me watching you all rail against corporations, which there are many, but refuse to talk about the select few central bankers who control the actual money supply. I've seen you people actually defend central banks even with the knowledge that they start wars and lend money to both sides to make sure they never lose. They have devalued our currency for over a hundred years.
> 
> You guys can't see the forest for the trees because the state-run corporate media (fascism) tells you where to focus your attention. Don't let them program you, program yourself. We have common ground here. All you have to do is recognize it. A united country and world is what they fear most.


Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know bankers were the ones who were stealing water from other countries and selling them back to people on the other side of the planet. I'll have to update my hitlist to include whatever scapegoat you mentally ill weirdos want to go after.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 13, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know bankers were the ones who were stealing water from other countries and selling them back to people on the other side of the planet. I'll have to update my hitlist to include whatever scapegoat you mentally ill weirdos want to go after.


Well, I guess even when I'm being nice, you are still gonna hurl those insults, huh toots. You are so blinded by hatred, you can't even bring yourself to even sort of agree with somebody on the right. I guess you must be part of the 6-8% who will just never get it, ignoring all evidence placed in front of you. I actually feel sorry for you. I would hate to live like that.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 13, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Well, I guess even when I'm being nice, you are still gonna hurl those insults, huh toots. You are so blinded by hatred, you can't even bring yourself to even sort of agree with somebody on the right. I guess you must be part of the 6-8% who will just never get it, ignoring all evidence placed in front of you. I actually feel sorry for you. I would hate to live like that.


Oh no, I actually just ham it up because you get mad and pearl clutch over it. Pretty funny. You'd think an adult wouldn't get so tilted so easily over what some chick online thinks.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 13, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Oh no, I actually just ham it up because you get mad and pearl clutch over it. Pretty funny. You'd think an adult wouldn't get so tilted so easily over what some chick online thinks.


The old "I'm only messing you to get a rise out of you" reason. That's almost as believable as you being a chick.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 13, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> This is so dumb, it brings me physical pain to even read it, much less having to respond to it.
> 
> If economies are specific to capitalism only and based off of monetary resources, then explain the following:
> Soviet rubles
> ...


Isn't it obvious? Private wealth hasn't been abolished anywhere in the world, so socialism and/or communism still has to interact with the material means outside their borders as well as deal with the pre-established systems they spawned from. People also aren't ready to just throw all their private earnings into a fire at the first sign of collective action. Marx specifically outlines the process of shifting away from these things, and that it is unreasonable to presume absolute dependence on state support instantaneously. Just because utopia hasn't been reached overnight doesn't make it impossible nor unworthy of our efforts. Do me a favor and don't reply to me and waste my time with your silly misguided hatred and lack of knowledge on the topics you rant about.



TraderPatTX said:


> Well, I guess even when I'm being nice, you are still gonna hurl those insults, huh toots. You are so blinded by hatred, you can't even bring yourself to even sort of agree with somebody on the right. I guess you must be part of the 6-8% who will just never get it, ignoring all evidence placed in front of you. I actually feel sorry for you. I would hate to live like that.


Ah, the delicious ignorance of a man ranting about his own failings. You're really doing a good job of lowering the value of the y chromosome.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 13, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The old "I'm only messing you to get a rise out of you" reason. That's almost as believable as you being a chick.


You wouldn't have tried the transphobia route if you didn't feel it'd be effective, coward.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 14, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> Isn't it obvious? Private wealth hasn't been abolished anywhere in the world, so socialism and/or communism still has to interact with the material means outside their borders as well as deal with the pre-established systems they spawned from. People also aren't ready to just throw all their private earnings into a fire at the first sign of collective action. Marx specifically outlines the process of shifting away from these things, and that it is unreasonable to presume absolute dependence on state support instantaneously. Just because utopia hasn't been reached overnight doesn't make it impossible nor unworthy of our efforts. Do me a favor and don't reply to me and waste my time with your silly misguided hatred and lack of knowledge on the topics you rant about.
> 
> 
> Ah, the delicious ignorance of a man ranting about his own failings. You're really doing a good job of lowering the value of the y chromosome.


So for socialism to work, the entire world must switch over to it. And how do you suppose that will happen? Do you think the socialists are just gonna ask everyone nicely? Considering the violent history of socialists, that will not happen. It's no wonder socialists want to disarm entire populations. It's the only way for them to take over.

Again with the insults. How old are you people? 12?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 14, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> You wouldn't have tried the transphobia route if you didn't feel it'd be effective, coward.


What is transphobic about using your own words?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 14, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> What is transphobic about using your own words?


I would have more respect for you than dirt if you actually owned your words instead of just being a spineless worm.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 14, 2022)

LGBT People 

I use to be super woke when it comes to all that stuff and use to be all for rights and stuff no question ask.

But it turns out the whole slippery slope thing was real as the years come by it feels like the whole thing is designed just to stay victims.

Not only that they keep adding more stupidity to the whole thing is like a race on who could be the most insane let's keep inventing genders and crap.

There is a small number of good people sure and those are the ones i care for but now im careful when supporting something and i question it.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 14, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So for socialism to work, the entire world must switch over to it. And how do you suppose that will happen? Do you think the socialists are just gonna ask everyone nicely? Considering the violent history of socialists, that will not happen. It's no wonder socialists want to disarm entire populations. It's the only way for them to take over.
> 
> Again with the insults. How old are you people? 12?


Perhaps you should stop jumping to your own conclusions without reading up on the topic? It is a gradual process by design, getting folks to ween off capitalist tendencies and embrace the power of a collective. Also fun fact, socialists are scapegoats and victims of violence more often than not, i.e. the ban on Cuba, the assassination of popular socialist leaders by materially invested countries worried about the impact to their revenue streams, and of course the thing right wing crackpots never seem to understand, the way they kicked Mussolini out of their party and how he denounced the socialist movement before murdering a bunch of socialists with the military backing of the very much not socialist Hitler and proclaiming himself leader of a new party, the Republican Fascist Party. 

You tend to get the insults because you condescend, insult, and fly a flag of zealous ignorance, comrade. Honestly, I kinda pity your dedication and pride to being consistently wrong at this point.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 14, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> the way *they* kicked Mussolini out of their party and how he denounced the socialist movement before murdering a bunch of socialists with the military backing of the very much not socialist Hitler and proclaiming himself leader of a new party, the Republican Fascist Party.


You may want to replace they with the noun it's supposed to reference for clarity.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 14, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I would have more respect for you than dirt if you actually owned your words instead of just being a spineless worm.


So you have little to no respect for dirt? Do you not love our planet?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 14, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> Perhaps you should stop jumping to your own conclusions without reading up on the topic? It is a gradual process by design, getting folks to ween off capitalist tendencies and embrace the power of a collective. Also fun fact, socialists are scapegoats and victims of violence more often than not, i.e. the ban on Cuba, the assassination of popular socialist leaders by materially invested countries worried about the impact to their revenue streams, and of course the thing right wing crackpots never seem to understand, the way they kicked Mussolini out of their party and how he denounced the socialist movement before murdering a bunch of socialists with the military backing of the very much not socialist Hitler and proclaiming himself leader of a new party, the Republican Fascist Party.
> 
> You tend to get the insults because you condescend, insult, and fly a flag of zealous ignorance, comrade. Honestly, I kinda pity your dedication and pride to being consistently wrong at this point.


I have seen the gradual process of socialism in the US and now people are seeing the lurch to the far left in the last year and a half. Socialists are the ones who are responsible for violence, it's the only way they can fully take over. Look at KLANtifa. They are socialists and one of the most violent hate groups in the country. They attack every minority they come across whether they are black, Asian, women, gays and trans.

I get insults for the simple reason that I have burst the left's echo chamber in these forums and you all are throwing a tantrum over it. If you all could actually debate and present your side using facts and logic, there would be no need for petty insults, but then again, insults and emotion are the tools of socialists because the facts are not on your side.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 14, 2022)

Valwinz said:


> LGBT People
> 
> I use to be super woke when it comes to all that stuff and use to be all for rights and stuff no question ask.
> 
> ...


Translation: You read an angry strawman post on 4chan and decided "I hate minorities now!!"


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Aug 23, 2022)

I tried to eat something with mayo in it. 

Still, nope. All of the nope.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

Probably too spicy for him


----------



## City (Oct 15, 2022)

I honestly thought better about the average person. Turns out you’re born as a bastard and it’s unlikely that’s going to change.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Oct 15, 2022)

City said:


> I honestly thought better about the average person. Turns out you’re born as a bastard and it’s unlikely that’s going to change.


It's more fun this way. You'll learn in time.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Oct 17, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> I tried to eat something with mayo in it.
> 
> Still, nope. All of the nope.


Never would touch it again..... unless its made in a certain way


----------



## Viri (Oct 17, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> I tried to eat something with mayo in it.
> 
> Still, nope. All of the nope.


Eh, it's okay. Once in a while I'll get a huge craving for a sandwich with Mayo in it, but I get tired of it extremely fast. Same with Chocolate, huge craving out of no where for Chocolate, but I get tired of Chocolate after the first candy bar.


----------



## mrdude (Oct 17, 2022)

I used to cringe when I thought about having sex with a ginger woman, I imagined they had no souls and smelled like a combination of crushed digestive biscuits and stale fox piss. Still given that - I would put a clothes peg on my nose and let Karen Gillan and Emma Stone get in about me if they played their cards right. I know gingers are a bit mental so I would be wary the entire time, however if they told me they were lefties - that would be a line I wouldn't cross.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Oct 17, 2022)

mrdude said:


> I used to cringe when I thought about having sex with a ginger woman, I imagined they had no souls and smelled like a combination of crushed digestive biscuits and stale fox piss. Still given that - I would put a close peg on my nose and let Karen Gillan and Emma Stone get in about me if they played their cards right. I know gingers are a bit mental so I would be wary the entire time, however if they told me they were lefties - that would be a line I wouldn't cross.


Eric Cartman is that you?


----------



## mrdude (Oct 17, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Eric Cartman is that you?


Everyone's got a bit of Eric Cartman in them.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Oct 17, 2022)

mrdude said:


> Everyone's got a bit of Eric Cartman in them.


Even City?


----------



## mrdude (Oct 17, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Even City?


I've No idea what you are on about, I'm sure in your head it makes sense.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Oct 17, 2022)

mrdude said:


> I've No idea what you are on about, I'm sure in your head it makes sense.


This guy, didn't want to @ him https://gbatemp.net/members/city.515768/


----------



## s9aW_igtgsi2 (Nov 14, 2022)

about video games apparently


----------



## gtaisthebest (Nov 14, 2022)

I used to want to go to moscow and see something therer, now i absolutely hate this place


----------

