# London Terror Attack(s)



## Joe88 (Jun 4, 2017)

Yup time for your weekly EU weekly terror attack.
Currently there have been 3 reported incidents, the main one being a white van plowed into about 20 people on london bridge, alot of gunshots have been reported, multiple people have been stabbed in a market a few blocks away from the bridge, its unknown if these are related, also unknown how many people have died.

The police confirmed that the bridge incident and the stabbing at the borough market are terror related, the gunfire was from the police, a second stabbing incident was not related to this.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3717339/london-bridge-attack-car-police-response-latest/

http://news.sky.com/story/live-sign...t-london-bridge-borough-and-vauxhall-10903581

http://news.sky.com/story/knife-attack-after-car-mounts-pavement-in-london-reports-10903580

If you are in the area, please stay off the streets.

and remember some wise words


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 4, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> Yup time for your weekly EU weekly terror attack.


Please, don't do that.
Don't start it with a funny title.
This is bad news, people are dead, but your title made me ROFL.

Now I feel like an insensitive person that should burn in hell.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Hit pretty close to home, literally just came back from prayer when my wife messaged me saying she heard gunshots.
I'm appalled that our government has failed to protect even our capital.
Sadiq Khan turns out to be right in saying that terror attacks are part and parcel for a big city. It's just so infuriating that it has to be that way at all.

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sarkwalvein said:


> Please, don't do that.
> Don't start it with a funny title.
> This is bad news, people are dead, but your title made me ROFL.
> 
> Now I feel like an insensitive person that should burn in hell.



Well you're not. We all sometime lose it when we shouldn't but I agree, the humour is uncalled for.


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## Glyptofane (Jun 4, 2017)

This is getting absolutely bonkers, but I suppose it is necessary to endure in order to experience true cultural enrichment.


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## VinsCool (Jun 4, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Please, don't do that.
> Don't start it with a funny title.
> This is bad news, people are dead, but your title made me ROFL.
> 
> Now I feel like an insensitive person that should burn in hell.


This is not even meant to be funny, this is _literally_ what we have.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

VinsCool said:


> This is not even meant to be funny, this is _literally_ what we have.


But we shouldn't become complacent in fighting IS because of it.


clownb said:


> This is getting absolutely bonkers, but I suppose it is necessary to endure in order to experience true cultural enrichment.


What? That's a terrible attempt at a joke.


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## WiiUBricker (Jun 4, 2017)

Yeah this is serious but we shouldn't let terrorists manipulate our emotions. That's what they're aiming for. They want to spread hatred in people.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

this is still unfolding fucking weekly EU terror update are you guys for real??? people being stabbed in the street not even 2 hours ago and you guys are talking like this??? losing faith in humanity ever so sightly the more i get older!!!!!

maybe act your age and have some dignity and word things in a sensitive nature as people have died at the hands of dirty fucking cowards YET AGAIN and there bodies arnt even cold yet!!!!


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## queendude (Jun 4, 2017)

Muslims got tired of France, now they want to fuck the shit out of britain guys, other countries are chillin right now lol
by the way its not just the "EU", right now its happening everywhere.

Last month we had bombings in Russia, Egypt, Libya...

God bless Europe



yes and please stop doing jokes out of that.


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## Deleted User (Jun 4, 2017)

Just heard about it live on the news, I'll never understand how some people could be so terrible.


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## Flame (Jun 4, 2017)

noragrets said:


> why is islam still a thing nowdays?
> all muslims need to convert to christianity if they're to be allowed in western societies



christianity? 

My turd it's better then your turd.


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## DontShootUp (Jun 4, 2017)

Yeah, this is pretty awful. Sorry you guys have to deal with this.  As an American its pretty hard to understand what it's like to live somewhere with frequent terror attacks. We've got a much higher chance of dying from heart attacks or being killed by the police.


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

noragrets said:


> why is islam still a thing nowdays?
> all muslims need to convert to christianity if they're to be allowed in western societies




Bwahahahah! Christianity... BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! Yeah right.. Like that's -any- better.


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## Flame (Jun 4, 2017)

DontShootUp said:


> Yeah, this is pretty awful. Sorry you guys have to deal with this.  As an American its pretty hard to understand what it's like to live somewhere with frequent terror attacks. We've got a much higher chance of dying from heart attacks or being killed by the police.


No you have "white mentally challenged" killing other students for the lulz


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

noragrets said:


> why is islam still a thing nowdays?
> all muslims need to convert to christianity if they're to be allowed in western societies



Yeah, no.



queendude said:


> Muslims


Yeah maybe try to avoid the sweeping generalisations.



Flame said:


> christianity?
> 
> My turd it's better then your turd.



I'd argue Islam isnt a turd but to each his own I guess.


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## popokakapetu (Jun 4, 2017)

Edited
Sorry guys but I have just enough of these attacks!


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## DontShootUp (Jun 4, 2017)

Flame said:


> No you have "white mentally challenged" killing other students for the lulz



I mean, you're not wrong.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Flame said:


> No you have "white mentally challenged" killing other students for the lulz



Do you just feel the urge to hate on anything and everything?


DontShootUp said:


> Yeah, this is pretty awful. Sorry you guys have to deal with this.  As an American its pretty hard to understand what it's like to live somewhere with frequent terror attacks. We've got a much higher chance of dying from heart attacks or being killed by the police.


I wouldn't consider three attacks in a year "frequent"


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

Muslims arnt to blame for this.....they believe there higher then there own religion just dirty cowards!!!!


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## Yepi69 (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm pretty Siria or Islam or whatever fuck 3rd world country is trying to start a war but Europe is bigger than them and so its both the entire America continent, they stand no chance if they ever want to start a war.
OH yeah, brexit.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

popokakapetu said:


> We don't know yet if behind these recent attack in London are Muslim but if they are thank you thank you very much!!!!  and if someone says that Islam is religion about peace please don't make me laugh and please explain why women's right are nearly non-existent or why 80-90 years old "Gentleman" get married with 9-12  old years girl!!!
> Thank You
> Sorry guys but I have just enough of these attacks!


 
You seem to be severely ignorant about Islam, I feel sorry for people like you who lack so much knowledge so as to claim this bullshit.
Islam is a religion of peace, that doesnt mean it's a religion of non-violence, however, muslims are never allowed to provoke a fight.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



froggydarren said:


> Muslims arnt to blame for this.....they believe there higher then there own religion just dirty cowards!!!!





Yepi69 said:


> I'm pretty Siria or Islam or whatever fuck 3rd world country is trying to start a war but Europe is bigger than them and so its both the entire America continent, they stand no chance if they ever want to start a war.
> OH yeah, brexit.



Uh oh, I think this thread needs to be locked before we have all out hate speech.


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## Yepi69 (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> You seem to be severely ignorant about Islam, I feel sorry for people like you who lack so much knowledge so as to claim this bullshit.
> Islam is a religion of peace, that doesnt mean it's a religion of non-violence, however, muslims are never allowed to provoke a fight.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> ...


Not really hating anyone, just saying that mini attacks like these are bound to start a war.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Yepi69 said:


> Not really hating anyone, just saying that mini attacks like these are bound to start a war.



Ah, well then if you're not hating on Islam I'm sorry for grouping you with the other guy.


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## popokakapetu (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> You seem to be severely ignorant about Islam, I feel sorry for people like you who lack so much knowledge so as to claim this bullshit.
> Islam is a religion of peace, that doesnt mean it's a religion of non-violence, however, muslims are never allowed to provoke a fight.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> ...


Then Please explain to me what is islam about because i dont see peace everywhere even in their islamic countries.


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## DontShootUp (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> I wouldn't consider three attacks in a year "frequent"



Again, I live in a country where we have _maybe_ one attack every few years that can be connected to middle-eastern terrorist organizations. So to us, 3 in a year is pretty frequent.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

you wont see this shit in Saudi states i can tell you that its shit hole parts like Iraq and Syria thats spawning theres nutters and somehow they brain wash utter dick chompers into doing shit like this knowing they will die!!!


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 4, 2017)

Please, don't do this.
This thread holds bad news that relate people lives.
In any case pay your respects.

If you want to bring your politics or religious disputes, go into another thread, don't pollute this one with BS that only leads to disrespectful flaming, don't be fucking insensitive.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

popokakapetu said:


> Then Please explain to me what is islam about because i dont see peace everywhere even in their islamic countries.



Erm, maybe because very few follow sharia law and those that do don't follow it correctly.


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## Flame (Jun 4, 2017)

The problem is not islam.. It's Saudi Arabia

End of thread.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

Flame said:


> The problem is not islam.. It's Saudi Arabia
> 
> End of thread.



they wont do anything.....there the bigger cowards in my book!!!


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Flame said:


> The problem is not islam.. It's Saudi Arabia
> 
> End of thread.



I can get behind that.



sarkwalvein said:


> Please, don't do this.
> This thread holds bad news that relate people lives.
> In any case pay your respects.
> 
> If you want to bring your politics or religious disputes, go into another thread, don't pollute this one with BS that only leads to disrespectful flaming, don't be fucking insensitive.



Indeed. On other news, @Joe88 you might want to update the thread as it's been confirmed that the gunfire was the police.



DontShootUp said:


> Again, I live in a country where we have _maybe_ one attack every few years that can be connected to middle-eastern terrorist organizations. So to us, 3 in a year is pretty frequent.



Ah, I see.


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## popokakapetu (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Erm, maybe because very few follow sharia law and those that do don't follow it correctly.


Sorry for my "rage" but i just have enough of these attacks, innocent people been killed for no good reason!!


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

popokakapetu said:


> Sorry for my "rage" but i just have enough of these attacks, innocent people been killed for no good reason!!


It's ok man.
I completely agree with you.


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## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

Right on queue - ISLAM A GUD BOI, PRAY FOR LONDON (insert translucent flag overlay).


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

hate them ''prey for'' shit people put up on facebook bloody lemmings the lot of them


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## popokakapetu (Jun 4, 2017)

I think if we see more of these attacks(please no more) we can say very big velcome to WW3!


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## Flame (Jun 4, 2017)

froggydarren said:


> they wont do anything.....there the bigger cowards in my book!!!


The thing is Saudis back islam extremists more then anyone in fact more then the rest put together. But Saudis get 99.9% of its money from USA


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Right on queue - ISLAM A GUD BOI, PRAY FOR LONDON (insert translucent flag overlay).





froggydarren said:


> hate them ''prey for'' shit people put up on facebook bloody lemmings the lot of them



Please get your political narratives out of here.

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noragrets said:


> islam is the problem , ISIS are simply following/applying the quaran/muahamad teachings to the real world
> that's what the islamic state is all about



Yeah, sure. I'd love to destroy this argument if you're willing to debate me in PM.


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## Blood Fetish (Jun 4, 2017)

Sad how similar the comments are to what I read on 9/11. All the fear and hatred changed nothing. We are doomed to repeat history.


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## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Please get your political narratives out of here.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...




Get your trash-religion apologism out of here.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

not being funny but no news whats really happening is it still ongoing have they shot/arrested anyone???? the french attacks were alot clearer!!!!


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Get your trash-religion apologism out of here.



I honestly do not care what you think of me. It's clear all you want to do is hate without even a hint of knowledge. Ignorance is bliss.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



noragrets said:


> i'd love to see you disprove my claim, but please do it here for everyone to see it


I'd rather not de-rail the already crappy thread.
Anyway, you're the one making the positive claim.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

France voted for this.

Terrorism ‘Will Be a Fact of Daily Life’ - Emmanuel Macron


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## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> I honestly do not care what you think of me. It's clear all you want to do is hate without even a hint of knowledge. Ignorance is bliss.



Unfortunately calling 'ignorance' every time events like this occur won't keep your countrymen alive.
Enjoy the hell you are fostering.

Inshallah!


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## Joe88 (Jun 4, 2017)

The multiple stabbing at borough market and the pedestrians being run down at london bridge are confirmed to be terrorism related by london police.
http://6abc.com/news/police-declare-hit-and-run-stabbing-terrorism/2064207/

A second stabbing at vauxhall is unreleated.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Unfortunately calling 'ignorance' every time events like this occur won't keep your countrymen alive.
> Enjoy the hell you are fostering.
> 
> Inshallah!



I'll say ignorance when you show a clear misunderstanding of Islam. But I'll just block you instead seeing as how you clearly don't want to have a respectful discussion and would rather use ad hominem.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



CallmeBerto said:


> France voted for this.
> 
> Terrorism ‘Will Be a Fact of Daily Life’ - Emmanuel Macron



And what is wrong with that statement? It's not like he's claiming he wont do anything about it.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> I'll say ignorance when you show a clear misunderstanding of Islam. But I'll just block you instead seeing as how you clearly don't want to have a respectful discussion and would rather use ad hominem.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...




Wants to bring in how many of these people who want to kill you, your children and your country? France is killing itself over words, over political correctness and your fine with this! This is why I don't care. You people had your choice and you choice wrong and will pay dearly.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> Wants to bring in how many of these people who want to kill you, your children and your country? France is killing itself over words, over political correctness and your fine with this! This is why I don't care. You people had your choice and you choice wrong and will pay dearly.



Ah, so this is about immigration? Do you have any evidence to suggest these Syrian migrants are terrorists?
Here's a fun thing to watch seeing as how you are severely lacking in knowledge:


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

What do you expect @TheDarkGreninja.. His only source of news is probably Fox news where they go on and on about how you should be afraid of -EVERYTHING-... Except who they tell you not to be afraid of!


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Ah, so this is about immigration? Do you have any evidence to suggest these Syrian migrants are terrorists?
> Here's a fun thing to watch seeing as how you are severely lacking in knowledge:





Fine believe what you will it's not my country anyways...I wonder how many terror attacks Japan has experienced. >.>


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

more then likely these are british born!!! and there are pics of one dead and one mouning on the ground with what appears to be a bomb around his waist!!!!


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> Fine believe what you will it's not my country anyways...I wonder how many terror attacks Japan has experienced. >.>



Do I have to show you how many Terror attacks in the US are because of homegrown terrorists? Or even worse.. CHRISTIAN TERRORISTS!


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> Fine believe what you will it's not my country anyways...I wonder how many terror attacks Japan has experienced. >.>


Yeah, closing yourself from the outside world is just awesome.


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Hey.. Maybe we should close of Christian Conservatives from the rest of the world... Make the rest of us a better place! ;P


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Yeah, closing yourself from the outside world is just awesome.



Closing your eyes to the truth is better. >.>


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> Closing your eyes to the truth is better. >.>



Ayep... Fox News special snowflake.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> Closing your eyes to the truth is better. >.>


Sure. You can deny what I've said all you want it doesnt make it any less true.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

3 explosions now!!! bet they blew themselves up.......how very noble of them


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Ayep... Fox News special snowflake.



Are you honestly going to tell me that Fox News is the only new site full of shit?


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

No, unfortunately most of them love to cater to the republican fear dogma... But your actions/reactions and choice of words are very reminiscent of Fox news.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 4, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Please, don't do this.
> This thread holds bad news that relate people lives.
> In any case pay your respects.
> 
> If you want to bring your politics or religious disputes, go into another thread, don't pollute this one with BS that only leads to disrespectful flaming, don't be fucking insensitive.


People that have kept this senseless disrespectful flame going, you disappoint me.
You just wait for something to happen to jump in with your fanaticism.
You wait for these, like if it were a game, only to start your unrequested childish fights, as if it were a fight between rival sports team fanatics.
You don't give a fuck about the victims, and don't really care about the incident at all, you just wait to start playing your game again.
You could discuss this in other threads, but you just want the use the incidents for publicity, and to fire your game, you don't have any respect for the victims, not at all.

You may not be terrorist, but you are still crap.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

mental


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## Joe88 (Jun 4, 2017)

this is the image currently being circulated around social media (please note it is unverified if its actually from this event) 
it shows a middle eastern man lying on the ground and a bunch of canisters wrapped it what looks to be duct tape, possible suicide bomb
If this is real then it shows multiple pre planned and sophisticated attacks.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> People that have kept this senseless disrespectful flame going, you disappoint me.
> You just wait for something to happen to jump in with your fanaticism.
> You wait for these, like if it were a game, only to start your unrequested childish fights, as if it were a fight between rival sports team fanatics.
> You don't give a fuck about the victims, and don't really care about the incident at all, you just wait to start playing your game again.
> ...




You think I wanted this? my heart breaks for France. I would never wish this on my worst enemy. What is going on in this country is horrible. I'm just so tried of people being so blind so the truth. it's like the France people don't care anymore.


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## WeedZ (Jun 4, 2017)

Im at work. Someone said something about an attack in London. When is this shit gunna end?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> this is the image currently being circulated around social media (please note it is unverified if its actually from this event)
> it shows a middle eastern man lying on the ground and a bunch of canisters wrapped it what looks to be duct tape, possible suicide bomb
> If this is real then it shows multiple pre planned and sophisticated attacks.


Looks fake to me.


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## the_randomizer (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Ayep... Fox News special snowflake.



Beats a CNN sycophant any day ;O;


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

its confirmed REAL....one dead confirmed this little shit is still alive!!!


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

WeedZ said:


> Im at work. Someone said something about an attack in London. When is this shit gunna end?



When the France people do something about it.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> When the France people do something about it.



Germany have a big hand in the problem as well!!!!


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> Beats a CNN sycophant any day ;O;



Ehh.. I'll argue that one.. if only just barely... Because at least CNN doesn't try to force religion into a lot of their broadcasts like Fox News does. 

They both suck off conservatives way to much though.


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## the_randomizer (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Ehh.. I'll argue that one.. if only just barely... Because at least CNN doesn't try to force religion into a lot of their broadcasts like Fox News does.
> 
> They both suck off conservatives way to much though.



If people want to be religious, who the hell cares? Don't watch either station then.

"Oh no, someone's conservative, time to crucify them for having a different opinion than me", that kind of mentality is bullshit. Sorry, but if people have a different political opinion than me, I don't generalize them into one group or lump them as being a certain way. I could, and I'm tempted to, but it would solve jack squat.



Tigran said:


> Hey.. Maybe we should close of Christian Conservatives from the rest of the world... Make the rest of us a better place! ;P



Oh right, being Christian and conservative =crime, gotcha.


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## WeedZ (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> When the France people do something about it.





froggydarren said:


> Germany have a big hand in the problem as well!!!!


I'm assuming you guys are talking about refugees and immigration. You can't blame the French or Germans for trying to do good. There is one clear group of people who are solely responsible for this shit.


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

> If people want to be religious, who the hell cares? Don't watch either station then.
> 
> "Oh no, someone's conservative, time to crucify them for having a different opinion than me", that kind of mentality is bullshit. Sorry, but if people have a different political opinion than me, I don't generalize them into one group or lump them as being a certain way. I could, and I'm tempted to, but it would solve jack squat.
> 
> ...



Considering in the US the Conservatives want to force their religious views on others.. It kinda is constitutionally.

Remember, It's the Religious and conservatives that are trying to tell two consenting adults what they can or can't do in their own bedroom, who throw a hissy fit if a commercial has two Moms or two Dads in it. Those are the kind of people telling women what they can or cannot do, and even with hold helpful medicine from them, *but not viagra for guys!* Those are the kind o people telling kids it's better to have NO parents than to live with a same sex parents.

So yeah.. Conservative Christians are at least constitutionally, criminals.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

WeedZ said:


> I'm assuming you guys are talking about refugees and immigration. You can't blame the French or Germans for trying to do good. There is one clear group of people who are solely responsible for this shit.



not blaming them for helping at all!! not vetting people doesn't help though!!!


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## WeedZ (Jun 4, 2017)

froggydarren said:


> not blaming them for helping at all!! not vetting people doesn't help though!!!


I'll give you that


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## Abu_Senpai (Jun 4, 2017)

So just as the PM drops the terror risk from Critical to Severe: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-says-uk-terror-threat-10509980

 this happens......What is the government doing exactly? either terrorists are outsmarting the government or the government isn't even trying anymore! either way innocents are being butchered.


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

WeedZ said:


> I'll give you that



Do we even know if these were homegrown yet or not? Cause no amount of vetting is gonna help homegrown terrorists.


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## the_randomizer (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Considering in the US the Conservatives want to force their religious views on others.. It kinda is constitutionally.
> 
> Remember, It's the Religious and conservatives that are trying to tell two consenting adults what they can or can't do in their own bedroom, who throw a hissy fit if a commercial has two Moms or two Dads in it. Those are the kind of people telling women what they can or cannot do, and even with hold helpful medicine from them, *but not viagra for guys!* Those are the kind o people telling kids it's better to have NO parents than to live with a same sex parents.
> 
> So yeah.. Conservative Christians are at least constitutionally, criminals.



Can't help you there, man. I have conservative views, deal with it. I can't stand any liberal news station, there, I said it.  But oh no, if I dare say that, it just opens me up for people to call me out for not having the same views as someone with  liberal views; this is why I hate politics so damned much, it's a lost cause.

I'm also religious, do I go around shoving things up people's asses? No.


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## froggydarren (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Do we even know if these were homegrown yet or not? Cause no amount of vetting is gonna help homegrown terrorists.



good point and no dout they were brain washed by British born extremists but we all know this is only a prelude of things to come if this dont get sorted NOW!!!


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Can you give me even one conservative few that isn't trying to stop the rights of someone else?


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

WeedZ said:


> I'm assuming you guys are talking about refugees and immigration. You can't blame the French or Germans for trying to do good. There is one clear group of people who are solely responsible for this shit.



Agreed. However doing good while getting the shaft is not being moral and good it's being foolish. If they really wanted to help these people they would have spent money on re-build their cities, land etc. Think about these people don't speak our language, we have completely different cultures what we are doing is really cruel. The first generation of these people will never prosper here. They will be stuck on welfare for 2-3 generations until their children learn our language.


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

froggydarren said:


> good point and no dout they were brain washed by British born extremists but we all know this is only a prelude of things to come if this dont get sorted NOW!!!




I agree... Which is why we need to find -why- these people are so easily becoming radicalized instead of throwing more mud at muslims.


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## the_randomizer (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Can you give me even one conservative few that isn't trying to stop the rights of someone else?



Nah, I'd rather just bail because like I said, these debates are a lost cause

Can you give one example of a liberal not throwing a tantrum when people called for an investigation against Clinton?  Or an example of a liberal not getting all up in arms when terrorists are called terrorist and not some other PC term?

Bloody hell this is ridiculous.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Sure.. I didn't throw a hissy fit. I thought it was stupid because most of the people who where whining about emails don't even know how they work. (here is a hint.. You can't just magically get rid of thousands of emails).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



the_randomizer said:


> Nah, I'd rather just bail because like I said, these debates are a lost cause
> 
> Can you give one example of a liberal not throwing a tantrum when people called for an investigation against Clinton?  Or an example of a liberal not getting all up in arms when terrorists are called terrorist and not some other PC term?
> 
> Bloody hell this is ridiculous.




Also, I'm all for calling terrorists terrorists. Problem is, most people seem horrified to call the recent white terrorists terrorists.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> Nah, I'd rather just bail because like I said, these debates are a lost cause
> 
> Can you give one example of a liberal not throwing a tantrum when people called for an investigation against Clinton?  Or an example of a liberal not getting all up in arms when terrorists are called terrorist and not some other PC term?
> 
> Bloody hell this is ridiculous.



Now that is something I can get behind!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Tigran said:


> Sure.. I didn't throw a hissy fit. I thought it was stupid because most of the people who where whining about emails don't even know how they work. (here is a hint.. You can't just magically get rid of thousands of emails).
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


May I ask Tigran, what are your beliefs anyways?


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

My believes are probably considered liberal. 

I'm all for liberties for everyone, and equal rights. The problem is most of the religious conservative groups *largest being christian in the USA* is against that, because it gives up their power.

I'm also an Atheist cause there are no gods, or if there are, they are assholes who don't deserve anyone giving them the time of day.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> My believes are probably considered liberal.
> 
> I'm all for liberties for everyone, and equal rights. The problem is most of the religious conservative groups *largest being christian in the USA* is against that, because it gives up their power.
> 
> I'm also an Atheist cause there are no gods, or if there are, they are assholes who don't deserve anyone giving them the time of day.



Same same ha!


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> My believes are probably considered liberal.
> 
> I'm all for liberties for everyone, and equal rights. The problem is most of the religious conservative groups *largest being christian in the USA* is against that, because it gives up their power.
> 
> I'm also an Atheist cause there are no gods, or if there are, they are assholes who don't deserve anyone giving them the time of day.


Interesting.
I'm a muslim centrist.


----------



## WeedZ (Jun 4, 2017)

CallmeBerto said:


> Agreed. However doing good while getting the shaft is not being moral and good it's being foolish. If they really wanted to help these people they would have spent money on re-build their cities, land etc. Think about these people don't speak our language, we have completely different cultures what we are doing is really cruel. The first generation of these people will never prosper here. They will be stuck on welfare for 2-3 generations until their children learn our language.


There's not much we can do for them. You're talking about globalized socialism, which i agree with on some levels. But even that won't be enough. They're in the state they're in because of their culture. I don't agree that allowing them to freely enter the country is necessarily a good idea. I'm just saying it's not their fault that handfuls of bad apples take advantage of this to push a radical Islamic agenda. I'm not going to pretend to have the answers. If it were up to me all organized religions would be banned and, aside from a few that would be catalogued for historic purpose, all biblical text from any dogma would be destroyed.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

WeedZ said:


> There's not much we can do for them. You're talking about globalized socialism, which i agree with on some levels. But even that won't be enough. They're in the state they're in because of their culture. I don't agree that allowing them to freely enter the country is necessarily a good idea. I'm just saying it's not their fault that handfuls of bad apples take advantage of this to push a radical Islamic agenda. I'm not going to pretend to have the answers. If it were up to me all organized religions would be banned and, aside from a few that would be catalogued for historic purpose, all biblical text from any dogma would be destroyed.


I'd consider that harsh, seeing as how any ideology can be taken advantage of and used to kill people, to pin this all on religion is a little insipid if you ask me.
And it's not like we can ban ideology.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Interesting.
> I'm a muslim centrist.



I personally don't care what god people worship, even if I think it's ridiculous. After all my uncle is (or at least was) a very high position in the Atlanta Baptist Association.

However, their personal religion does not have any place in school and laws. Especially when the US constitution specifically says that. 

When I worked at a video store (called Video Update) I had no problems when church leaders came in to rent videos. None of my damn business. It did -become- my business however when one threw holy water on my face because I -dared!- to suggest "Pokemon the first movie."

Or that a friend of mine should be killed because he was gay. (Guy wasn't... Feminine as hell.. yes, flamboyant? Yes..but straight). Because why? Some persons Sky Daddy said so!


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> I personally don't care what god people worship, even if I think it's ridiculous. After all my uncle is (or at least was) a very high position in the Atlanta Baptist Association.
> 
> However, their personal religion does not have any place in school and laws. Especially when the US constitution specifically says that.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more.


----------



## WeedZ (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> I'd consider that harsh, seeing as how any ideology can be taken advantage of and used to kill people, to pin this all on religion is a little insipid if you ask me.
> And it's not like we can ban ideology.


True we can't. But in my hypothetical world people would be entitled to believe whatever they wanted. organizing is what would be illegal. My theory is, we would have nothing to fight over. No conservatives, no liberals, no radicals, no one pushing their views on others, violent or otherwise. But as with any other post here, it's just my opinion.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

WeedZ said:


> True we can't. But in my hypothetical world people would be entitled to believe whatever they wanted. organizing is what would be illegal. My theory is, we would have nothing to fight over. No conservatives, no liberals, no radicals, no one pushing their views on others, violent or otherwise. But as with any other post here, it's just my opinion.



I'd love to discuss this with you further but I think we've digressed enough.


----------



## GhostLatte (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Ayep... Fox News special snowflake.





the_randomizer said:


> Beats a CNN sycophant any day ;O;


Both of these media outlets are trash as they're too biased towards the left or right.


----------



## Joe88 (Jun 4, 2017)

Police have confirmed 6 people have died, 30 injured.
3 of the attackers have been shot and killed by police, 1 suspect may still be on the loose.
They have also said that the suicide vests the attackers were wearing were fake.


----------



## Todderbert (Jun 4, 2017)

WiiUBricker said:


> Yeah this is serious but we shouldn't let terrorists manipulate our emotions. That's what they're aiming for. They want to spread hatred in people.



They awake vengance and the idea that terrorism is a cancer that needs to be burned out where its found.

Time to get the M.O.P.


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Yeah, that would be lot of help if these where homegrown.


----------



## falconcrest (Jun 4, 2017)

WiiUBricker said:


> Yeah this is serious but we shouldn't let terrorists manipulate our emotions. That's what they're aiming for. They want to spread hatred in people.


Amen to that,amigo

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TheDarkGreninja said:


> I'd consider that harsh, seeing as how any ideology can be taken advantage of and used to kill people, to pin this all on religion is a little insipid if you ask me.
> And it's not like we can ban ideology.


Using religion for an excuse for murder is just downright idiotic...people make their own choices,their holy book of choice does not do it for them...


----------



## barak06 (Jun 4, 2017)

noragrets said:


> but not all muslims are terrorists


And wtf ? Not all germans were nazis or not all communists were stalinian, and so on.... But here the more the muslims are, the more terrorists are... simple. For example : 8 millions muslims in France, Say 1/10000 are djihadists... do the maths. And they rise from a community more and more salafist compatible, sadly.


----------



## Jayro (Jun 4, 2017)

England just LOVES being in the terrorism spotlight I've noticed.


----------



## Viri (Jun 4, 2017)

Poland just be chilling, and be like "no terrorism here!"


Spoiler


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Jayro said:


> England just LOVES being in the terrorism spotlight I've noticed.



Nah.. We in the US just like hiding our white homegrown christian terrorists under different names.


----------



## Jayro (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Nah.. We in the US just like hiding our white homegrown christian terrorists under different names.


Like "mentally unstable gunman" or "Florida Man".


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 4, 2017)

WiiUBricker said:


> Yeah this is serious but we shouldn't let terrorists manipulate our emotions. That's what they're aiming for. They want to spread hatred in people.


Any evidence for this claim whatsoever? I'm so sick of this meme.

I'm pretty sure terrorists want to kill people. which is why they do it. Ignoring the underlying issues and refuse to address the actual problem more closely fits into what they would want, because it allows them to more easily commit acts of barbarism, which is exactly what they're doing.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> Are evidence for this claim whatsoever? I'm so sick of this meme.
> 
> I'm pretty sure terrorists want to kill people. which is why they do it. Ignoring the underlying issues and refuse to address the actual problem more closely fits into what they would want, because it allows them to more easily commit acts of barbarism, which is exactly what they're doing.



Well before it was a scareword, Terrorism did have a very specific meaning. However people have started twisting it's meaning to ignore things they don't like "White Christians" being the obvious one right now, and clumping almost all Muslim incidents into it, even if they may just be a guy going Psycho like... well like we do every day.

Yes Terrorists idea is to create terror, but for a specific geo-political reason. Most of the time to affect elections or for a coup. 

So the attacks right before Frances elections could easily be classified under the original reasoning as terrorism, this one? You are right it's closer to barbarism.


----------



## hobbledehoy899 (Jun 4, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> This is bad news, people are dead, but your title made me ROFL.
> 
> Now I feel like an insensitive person that should burn in hell.


If you can't laugh you can't do fucking anything!


----------



## Todderbert (Jun 4, 2017)




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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

hobbledehoy899 said:


> If you can't laugh you can't do fucking anything!



Well you could run around naked singing the 1971 Kamen Rider theme song... But I'm not sure that would help in any situation.....


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## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Quran (2:191-193) - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah_ _is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah_ _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"_

_#religionofpeace #notallmuslims #yallwhitetrash_ #ireadthequranandthereisnothingaboutkillingpeople


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## hobbledehoy899 (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Well you could run around naked singing the 1971 Kamen Rider theme song... But I'm not sure that would help in any situation.....


That's not what I mean, you dip. Just because a person's laughing don't mean what they're laughing at is funny!


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Quran (2:191-193) - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah_ _is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah_ _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"_
> 
> _#religionofpeace #notallmuslims #yallwhitetrash_ #ireadthequranandthereisnothingaboutkillingpeople



Well.. lets see what the bible has to say about this...

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Or Deuteronomy 13:

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.


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## hobbledehoy899 (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Quran (2:191-193) - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah_ _is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah_ _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"_
> 
> _#religionofpeace #notallmuslims #yallwhitetrash_ #ireadthequranandthereisnothingaboutkillingpeople





Tigran said:


> Well.. lets see what the bible has to say about this...
> 
> Deuteronomy 17
> 
> ...


Can we just admit that both religions are equally bad and decisive?


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> ~snip~


What a pathetic attempt at misdirection and obfuscation. And how many Christians are running around in Western countries barbarically killing people in the name of Christ? How many Christians blindly follow the Old Testament as immutable laws of God? Does the fact that virtually all terrorists in Europe are Muslims mean anything to you? How many people have to die until you admit there are problems that need addressing?

(P.S. I'm not even a Christian.)


----------



## Hayleia (Jun 4, 2017)

hobbledehoy899 said:


> Can we just admit that both religions are equally bad and decisive?


With me you could, but some people in this thread just love to hate on Islam _alone_.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Well.. lets see what the bible has to say about this...


Oh yeah, you see many jews going around killing people. Remember WW2? Those guys caused so many deaths! What about Christians? That fucking Pope man. Always spewing his hatred all over Rome. So many attacks in the name of the Christian God every day. Damn.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> I wouldn't consider three attacks in a year "frequent"



There have been 909 attacks related to Islam in 2017 alone.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

hobbledehoy899 said:


> Can we just admit that both religions are equally bad and decisive?



Nope.. Cause Christians seem to like to ignore their history and pretend they are all rightous and good and that the "Dark scary muslim people!" are bad... Even though Allah and *Yahweh* are the same dude anyways.


----------



## Hayleia (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> What a pathetic attempt at misdirection and obfuscation. And how many Christians are running around in Western countries barbarically killing people in the name of Christ? How many Christians blindly follow the Old Testament as immutable laws of God? Does the fact that virtually all terrorists in Western countries are Muslims mean anything to you? How many people have to die until you admit there are problems that need addressing?
> 
> (P.S. I'm not even a Christian.)





Vipera said:


> Oh yeah, you see many jews going around killing people. Remember WW2? Those guys caused so many deaths! What about Christians? That fucking Pope man. Always spewing his hatred all over Rome. So many attacks in the name of the Christian God every day. Damn.
> 
> 
> 
> There have been 909 attacks related to Islam in 2017 alone.


Yeah, in 2017, Christians stopped being violent idiots. But don't pretend your religion never caused any problem in the world. You stopped but it took time. Well, see, you're the kind of peaceful Christian (I mean, you're hating, but you're not bombing) the same way there are peaceful muslims... which is not denying there are bombings in the name of Islam, and without denying christians did bullshit to in the past.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> Yeah, in 2017, Christians stopped being violent idiots. But don't pretend your religion never caused any problem in the world. You stopped but it took time. Well, see, you're the kind of peaceful Christian (I mean, you're hating, but you're not bombing) the same way there are peaceful muslims... which is not denying there are bombings in the name of Islam, and without denying christians did bullshit to in the past.


"my" religion? I'm not a Christian. Stop projecting to people who don't want to be bombed by these people.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 4, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> Yeah, in 2017, Christians stopped being violent idiots. But don't pretend your religion never caused any problem in the world.


Not my religion. 



> You stopped but it took time. Well, see, you're the kind of peaceful Christian (I mean, you're hating, but you're not bombing) the same way there are peaceful muslims... which is not denying there are bombings in the name of Islam, and without denying christians did bullshit to in the past.


I prefer to focus on people being killed now, to be honest. I see a problem, and I want to solve it. People like you don't care if people die, you just want to blame anything but Islam however you can.


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## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> What a pathetic attempt at misdirection and obfuscation. And how many Christians are running around in Western countries barbarically killing people in the name of Christ? How many Christians blindly follow the Old Testament as immutable laws of God? Does the fact that virtually all terrorists in Western countries are Muslims mean anything to you? How many people have to die until you admit there are problems that need addressing?
> 
> (P.S. I'm not even a Christian.)


http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-mu...0-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619

Hell, http://www.romans322.com/daily-death-rate-statistics.php shows that we've had over 7k homocides this year already. Even going by loosest odds, that still puts them -way- over the top. And even now in the area where I am, there is a church under investigating for beating it's members for being gay.


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## Hayleia (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> "my" religion? I'm not a Christian. Stop projecting to people who don't want to be bombed by these people.





Xiphiidae said:


> Not my religion.


I love putting useless details in my answers to see if people use these details to avoid answering the rest.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 4, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> I love putting useless details in my answers to see if people use these details to avoid answering the rest.


Except for that I did answer the rest. Nice try attempting to justify your pathetic willingness to ignore barbarism and obfuscate the real problems we face.


----------



## Hayleia (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> Except I did answer the rest. Nice try attempting to justify your pathetic prejudice and willingness to ignore barbarism.


You quoted the rest, but you didn't _answer_ really (and the other one completely didn't answer). You did not recognize some parts of Christianity were a problem too... the same way parts of Islam are nowadays too, I do not deny it. And I do not ignore barbarism, otherwise I wouldn't mention what Christianity did in the past.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Also, as I pointed out, here in the US, while the Religious right are not acting violently outright, hate crime has increased massively over the last few months and they are activly trying to create and enforce laws that are nothing short of attempting to impose shira law here.


----------



## omegasoul6 (Jun 4, 2017)

Anyone else not even surprised anymore?


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> You quoted the rest, but you didn't _answer_ really (and the other one completely didn't answer). You did not recognize some parts of Christianity were a problem too... the same way parts of Islam are nowadays too, I do not deny it. And I do not ignore barbarism, otherwise I wouldn't mention what Christianity did in the past.



Yes, slaughtering people on the streets of London is bad - BUT THE CRUSADES! DON'T FORGET THE CRUSADES!


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Yes, slaughtering people on the streets of London is bad - BUT THE CRUSADES! DON'T FORGET THE CRUSADES!


The crusades that were primarily a response to repeated Islamic invasions of Europe and the Middle East :^)


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

We had a guy here in the US stab three people, killing two, because they wanted him to stop yelling at two girls who he -thought- where muslim.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> The crusades that were primarily a response to repeated Islamic invasions of Europe and the Middle East :^)



Buh muh fragile truth!


----------



## Hayleia (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Yes, slaughtering people on the streets of London is bad - BUT THE CRUSADES! DON'T FORGET THE CRUSADES!


My point is not that. My point is, you can't "attack" Islam alone. Either you attack "all" religions or you don't. But you can't say "the Quran has violent verses and people who follow them must all die in the name of peace (what) or convert to christianity" like wtf is this post.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> The crusades that were primarily a response to repeated Islamic invasions of Europe and the Middle East :^)




Except it was the Christian that didn't honor the ransom deal and kill all the hostages because he decided he wanted the money up front instead of in payments like the agreement was.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> My point is not that. My point is, you can't "attack" Islam alone. Either you attack "all" religions or you don't. But you can't say "the Quran has violent verses and people who follow them must all die in the name of peace (what) or convert to christianity" like wtf is this post.



Actually you can attack Islam alone while recognizing that other religions in the west still maintain beliefs that some consider 'regressive', yet are almost entirely benign,

What percentage of the global Christian population do you think would consider apostasy a reasonable grounds for execution?

I have no issue with religion, but it's not *bigoted* to recognize that one is incredibly ill.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 4, 2017)

Hayleia said:


> My point is not that. My point is, you can't "attack" Islam alone. Either you attack "all" religions or you don't. But you can't say "the Quran has violent verses and people who follow them must all die in the name of peace (what) or convert to christianity" like wtf is this post.


Virtually no-one is giving any religion a free pass except for those who deny the role of Islam in regard to terror. You are the one trying to deflect criticism of religion. Your attempts of a false equivalency between Islam and other religions is laughable, considering the reality of uniformly Islamic terror we face. I'll attack Christianity as much as I attack Islam when Christianity deserves it. At the moment, or even throughout history, this is simply not the case.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Except in this case.. it's not really the religious believes as much as it is the regional believes. We have several Muslim Majority nations that are allies and actually on the lead of tech. It's more the area, much like the problems in Israel and Pakistan.


----------



## WiiUBricker (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> Any evidence for this claim whatsoever? I'm so sick of this meme.
> 
> I'm pretty sure terrorists want to kill people. which is why they do it. Ignoring the underlying issues and refuse to address the actual problem more closely fits into what they would want, because it allows them to more easily commit acts of barbarism, which is exactly what they're doing.


What meme? Terrorists aren't killing just for the sake of killing. That would make them braindead psychopaths. When they kill they have a goal in mind, sending messages to the public as an act of their extreme religious beliefs. Look it up.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Except in this case.. it's not really the religious believes as much as it is the regional believes. We have several Muslim Majority nations that are allies and actually on the lead of tech. It's more the area, much like the problems in Israel and Pakistan.


You mean Saudi Arabia where women are forbidden to go around without dressing like a ghost? Or Qatar allowing people to get stoned to death because that's what Sharia law says? Do I even have to say anything about Brunei?


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Also, this hate on Muslim people actually feeds right into the terrorists plans. How do you think they get their recruits. They just play the news and comments like the ones above about muslims and say "See.. How can you be safe? We are the only ones who can garentee you a safe life." 

Sure it's a lie... But it's the lie that has worked for so many for so often. It's how police coerce confessions weather real or false. It's how the military has recruited forever, it's how Trump won the election. It's the MOST basic recruiting tool in history... and a lot of you play right into it.


----------



## omegasoul6 (Jun 4, 2017)

Snip


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 4, 2017)

WiiUBricker said:


> What meme? Terrorists aren't killing just for the sake of killing. That would make them braindead psychopaths. When they kill they have a goal in mind, sending messages to the public as an act of their extreme religious beliefs. Look it up.


I'm not saying that they do not want to send messages to the public (nice moving the goalposts, by the way, first it was "terrorists want to spread hatred" now it's "terrorists want to send messages").

Their religious text tells them to kill people, they have an almost 1,500 year history of barbarically killing people for their faith, their cultures on-the-whole celebrate or condone violence, their prophet and most exalted figure was a barbaric warmonger, and the pious strive to emulate him. Why should it be surprising that this set of ideas then leads to faithful Muslims savagely killing people all over the world?

I'm not even denying that moderate, liberal, secular Islam can exist, I'm just saying that to prevent people from being killed and to keep people safe we need to be honest about what the problems and issues actually are. This Trudeau-esque "if you hate/kill the terrorists they win" mentality needs to end and fast.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> You mean Saudi Arabia where women are forbidden to go around without dressing like a ghost? Or Qatar allowing people to get stoned to death because that's what Sharia law says? Do I even have to say anything about Brunei?




Hey.. I agree, that's despicable. But I did already bring up Pakistan and Israel which have.. similar laws.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



omegasoul6 said:


> I don't hate Muslim people, I hate their religion.



I don't hate any religion. It should just never leave the house/place of worship. *no I don't consider wearing a hijab or the hat the Jewish wear to be a problem with that.. No more than a baseball cap* I would be happy if all Sky Daddies went bye bye because all it is, is an excuse to say "It's not my fault" or to not even thank the people who actually deserve it.

And lets be honest, religion in the early days where more about a way to keep the un-educated masses from killing themselves with the lack of knoweldge. Ever wonder why Pork was such a bad thing back then? People didn't understand eating it uncooked/under-cooked was bad... so easy thing to do was say "Hey.. God says not to do this!" 

And though I have no evidence to it. MOST likely the reason the woman started wearing hijabs in the area that Islam flourished was the harsh sandstorms and were trying to keep the sand from scratching their faces and it mutated from there.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> I don't hate any religion. It should just never leave the house/place of worship. *no I don't consider wearing a hijab or the hat the Jewish wear to be a problem with that.. No more than a baseball cap* I would be happy if all Sky Daddies went bye bye because all it is, is an excuse to say "It's not my fault" or to not even thank the people who actually deserve it.



What makes you think people won't just replace the 'sky daddies' with something else?


----------



## Hayleia (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Actually you can attack Islam alone while recognizing that other religions in the west still maintain beliefs that some consider 'regressive', yet are almost entirely benign,
> 
> What percentage of the global Christian population do you think would consider apostasy a reasonable grounds for execution?
> 
> I have no issue with religion, but it's not *bigoted* to recognize that one is incredibly ill.





Xiphiidae said:


> Virtually no-one is giving any religion a free pass except for those who deny the role of Islam in regard to terror. You are the one trying to deflect criticism of religion. Your attempts of a false equivalency between Islam and other religions is laughable, considering the reality of uniformly Islamic terror we face. I'll attack Christianity as much as I attack Islam when Christianity deserves it. At the moment, or even throughout history, this is simply not the case.


Once again, I do not deny that only one of them is used to kill people right now. So of course, if one religion has to be hated, I'll completely agree with you that it should be that one.
Except that from my point of view all religions are the same. They like to fill knowledge holes with suppositions and give orders to people for no valid reasons. And this is always bad. Once again, yes, only one of them really has bad consequences from that right now, but who tells you there won't be a current of Christianity that evolves into bullshit once we get rid of islamists? No one tells you that. So instead of getting rid of the problem (islamists), why not get rid of the cause (religion as a whole)?


----------



## WiiUBricker (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> by the way, first it was "terrorists want to spread hatred" now it's "terrorists want to send messages").


Both are true.


----------



## barak06 (Jun 4, 2017)

hobbledehoy899 said:


> Can we just admit that both religions are equally bad and decisive?


Ok BUT now the problem is islam ! We are in 2017. Only muslisms have political over their religion who command djihad to install a World califat.... because we, misbeliever, whites, non-muslim.... are wrong in our minds and way of life compare to the purity of the cooran and life of his prophet (kidding !)


----------



## hobbledehoy899 (Jun 4, 2017)

barak06 said:


> Ok BUT now the problem is islam !


I realize this.


----------



## Jackson Ferrell (Jun 4, 2017)

.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

unbelievable 

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/871138429744140289


----------



## arcanine (Jun 4, 2017)

noragrets said:


> why is islam still a thing nowdays?
> all muslims need to convert to christianity if they're to be allowed in western societies


Don't you fucking dare to presume that your favourite cult is the least grotesque of all of them. Christianity has been more of a blight on society than Islam. The attacks by Islamic extremists are depressingly frequent, but so is the mass brainwashing, denial of facts, persecution of large numbers of people and general hate spewed by Christianity. If it weren't for Christianity we wouldn't still be hacking off babies' foreskins, trying to cure homosexuals, and threatening people with eternal torture for daring to act on their natural human impulses (i.e. sexual, lifestyle, and freedom of thought). We would also be advancing much faster as a society as we would stop wasting our time trying to convince children that fairy tales are real when they could be learning about the real world.

All religions are utterly despicable. The only way this fucking shithole of a planet will ever get any better is if everyone wakes the fuck up and realises that they're following the insane ramblings of ancient desert-folk as though they are the word of some 'god'.

No religion is better or worse than any other. They're all shit. It's just that some are more cowardly than others so don't act on what their 'holy' books actually tell them to do.


----------



## pwsincd (Jun 4, 2017)

people will begin to take this matter into their own hands... 400 people injured in a stampede at the champions league final due to a firecracker going off . people are scared.  We gotta defend ourselves from these extremists.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> unbelievable
> 
> https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/871138429744140289


I'm very sorry, maybe it's the thick british accent, but all I could understand was "take covah" and a randomly thrown "cunts" at the end of the video. At what second is it happening?


----------



## MionissNio (Jun 4, 2017)

When will genocide against Muslims begin?

I'm waiting with my armored truck and anti Radical shotgun.


----------



## Ritsuki (Jun 4, 2017)

Xiphiidae said:


> I'm not saying that they do not want to send messages to the public (nice moving the goalposts, by the way, first it was "terrorists want to spread hatred" now it's "terrorists want to send messages").
> 
> Their religious text tells them to kill people, they have an almost 1,500 year history of barbarically killing people for their faith, their cultures on-the-whole celebrate or condone violence, their prophet and most exalted figure was a barbaric warmonger, and the pious strive to emulate him. Why should it be surprising that this set of ideas then leads to faithful Muslims savagely killing people all over the world?
> 
> I'm not even denying that moderate, liberal, secular Islam can exist, I'm just saying that to prevent people from being killed and to keep people safe we need to be honest about what the problems and issues actually are. This Trudeau-esque "if you hate/kill the terrorists they win" mentality needs to end and fast.



You see, you are the perfect example of someone who actually has a very valid point of view and really interesting, but mixes a few things which can causes a bit of agitation in this kind of discussion. The problem is that people misuse terms like "muslim", "terrorist", "arab" etc... To begin, I think that our three monotheist religions are basically the same (myth of Abraham), they just don't recognize the same prophets. But the thing is, even if they're not on the same wavelength about who is the principal prophet, they still recognize the others religion's prophets (Example : Jesus is a very important prophet in Islam, and he has exactly the same functions as his christian equivalent). The three religions has the same structure, pretty much the same belifs and all. 

So why do we see a lot of muslim terrorists these days, and less christian or jew ? And why now ? That's where I join you, to me it's more of a socio-cultural problem. This kind of things don't happen in every muslim countries, mainly muslim arab countries. Why that ? Most arab countries have faced wars, revolutions, oppression these last years, which make them really easy targets for terrorist organization. So situation of the country is an important factor in appearance of terrorism. I'm from Senegal, a country mostly muslim, with a minority of christians, but that kind of shit never happened in Senegal. I even have a church in fornt of my house, and my mother used to go to church during holidays. Wearing a veil is not mandatory either. So culturally speaking, we are very different from arab countries, because we have a different culture and a different history. For example, we don't use burqa. It's not even in the Quaran. The only thing about that in the Quaran is something about hair, knees and elbows that has to be covered. But even in the Bible you can find this passage about women, that's why nuns are dressed the way they are. (echoing with wha I was saying earier : it's the same)

IMHO there is a problem with Islam, but the problem is not that Islam is too violent or anything, the problem is that real muslims need to gather and show people that they're not terrorists. Yes, there are violent things in Islam, just like in Christianity or Judaism. But this has nothing to do with terrorism. Quaran does not say "just go kill some random people", because that's what terrorism is, people randomly killing in the name of their god. 

Religion is supposed to be a way of life, not a way of death, and terrorists are now using the false pretext of honoring the name of their god by slauthering people when in their sacred text it's written that killing one person is like killing the whole humanity. Terrorists just use religion as a vector because it's easier. You can find whatever you want in the sacred books, so if you're smart enough, you can brainwash weak minded people and use them.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Also have to remind people that the countries this -is- coming out of, are poor, and mostly in-hospital living places. 

Now I'm not making that as an excuse, but imagine the mob mentality that starts at sports games, then imagine it literally being a whole town -because- there is no outside communication or constant travel because of the climate, and you've got even more isolation and self-radicalization.

The real thing we need to look for *at least currently* is why all these home grown terrorists are becoming self radicalized. -THAT- will help us more than any gun can. You cannot fight an idea with bullets.


----------



## Ritsuki (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Also have to remind people that the countries this -is- coming out of, are poor, and mostly in-hospital living places.
> 
> Now I'm not making that as an excuse, but imagine the mob mentality that starts at sports games, then imagine it literally being a whole town -because- there is no outside communication or constant travel because of the climate, and you've got even more isolation and self-radicalization.
> 
> The real thing we need to look for *at least currently* is why all these home grown terrorists are becoming self radicalized. -THAT- will help us more than any gun can. You cannot fight an idea with bullets.



Completly right. Now we are just fighting the symptoms instead of the cause.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Ritsuki said:


> Completly right. Now we are just fighting the symptoms instead of the cause.



We have a problem of doing that.. At least here in America with everyone going on about the Opiod issue. Now.. Don't get me wrong, Opiods are bad, a serious problem, but no one seems to want to look at the cause of the problem, and isntead try to slap bandaid after bandaid on it.

Got news for folks. Doesn't matter how many times you bandage a wound... it won't heal if you don't take the wolverine off the leg first.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Ritsuki said:


> So why do we see a lot of muslim terrorists these days, and less christian or jew ? And why now ? That's where I join you, to me it's more of a socio-cultural problem. This kind of things don't happen in every muslim countries, mainly muslim arab countries. Why that ? Most arab countries have faced wars, revolutions, oppression these last years, which make them really easy targets for terrorist organization. So situation of the country is an important factor in appearance of terrorism.


This is a very good point you are making and I'm glad someone who thinks Islam isn't the problem did that. You reminded me of Uganda, with the majority of people being Christian, and it's also the worst place to be an LGBT member, with people in the parliament wanting to outlaw it as much as possible and the newspapers doing witch hunts to catch the gay people who "don't want to change" or the people who do "curative rape".

But I don't agree with those countries having a delicate issue to be the problem. In case of Uganda, the overwhelming majority of the word condemned the place and even the Pope mentioned how crazy it is. Everyone agrees that everyone has human rights and the very minority of people who agreed with Uganda has been flooded with backlash. Why can't it be the same with Islam? The qu'ran has a lot of verses about killing people. Mohammed married a little girl. The sharia law condemns people who leave the faith with death. These, together with many other issues, are "culturally diverse" and "not a big of deal" for people. Millions of Muslims want the sharia law to be part of their country's law. They also sympathize with terrorists and are against LGBT people. Yet, if you dare to mention these incompatibilities with the western societies, you are a bigot. There is a big elephant in the room nobody is willing to address, and THIS is how you eventually make people who want all muslims to be dead. I'm not part of those people, I just want the world to address the problem and to act accordingly, instead of reporting people on Twitter for "hate speech" or defending the muslim community.


----------



## DinohScene (Jun 4, 2017)

Oh look, it's another attack.
*shrugs*
Nothing will change from it.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> This is a very good point you are making and I'm glad someone who thinks Islam isn't the problem did that. You reminded me of Uganda, with the majority of people being Christian, and it's also the worst place to be an LGBT member, with people in the parliament wanting to outlaw it as much as possible and the newspapers doing witch hunts to catch the gay people who "don't want to change" or the people who do "curative rape".
> 
> But I don't agree with those countries having a delicate issue to be the problem. In case of Uganda, the overwhelming majority of the word condemned the place and even the Pope mentioned how crazy it is. Everyone agrees that everyone has human rights and the very minority of people who agreed with Uganda has been flooded with backlash. Why can't it be the same with Islam? The qu'ran has a lot of verses about killing people. Mohammed married a little girl. The sharia law condemns people who leave the faith with death. These, together with many other issues, are "culturally diverse" and "not a big of deal" for people. Millions of Muslims want the sharia law to be part of their country's law. They also sympathize with terrorists and are against LGBT people. Yet, if you dare to mention these incompatibilities with the western societies, you are a bigot. There is a big elephant in the room nobody is willing to address, and THIS is how you eventually make people who want all muslims to be dead. I'm not part of those people, I just want the world to address the problem and to act accordingly, instead of reporting people on Twitter for "hate speech" or defending the muslim community.




And yet the bible says pretty much the same thing. And here in the US, many many people are trying to put those laws into effect. Two consenting adults can't do what they want in their own bedroom because the Christians don't like it. Kids can't get adopted because the Christians don't like it. People can't get important medicine because Christians don't like it. People are getting beaten in their own church for being gay. So yeah.. Christians here in the US are litteraly doing the same damn thing you just said.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

It's disappointing reading the racist comments encouraging people of the Islamic faith to convert to Christianity...I mean both sides have their terrorists. It\s quite tiring more often then not these people don\t understand why these problems exist in the first place...they like to go to the easy problem such as they are Muslim...it's sickening and tiring. And it irritates me how the moderators allow this one sided attack on a faith group.


DinohScene said:


> Oh look, it's another attack.
> *shrugs*
> Nothing will change from it.


How can it? There isn't much that can be done aside from sending troops into Iraq and Syria and maybe Mindanao if the Philippines allows it. Unlike the gun attacks in the US...there isn't so much that can be done unless you want Europe to resemble Nazi Germany or Chechnya.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> And yet the bible says pretty much the same thing. And here in the US, many many people are trying to put those laws into effect. Two consenting adults can't do what they want in their own bedroom because the Christians don't like it. Kids can't get adopted because the Christians don't like it. People can't get important medicine because Christians don't like it. People are getting beaten in their own church for being gay. So yeah.. Christians here in the US are litteraly doing the same damn thing you just said.


Too bad that there's nothing in the bible mentioning that gay people shouldn't be gay. There is a very confused part in the old testament (whom any Christian, by default, should not follow) and a personal consideration of one of the apostles. That's it. Jesus, on the other hand, preached people to be good and don't bother others.

Also, as I already mentioned, the very small minority of people who are against LGBT rights get a huge backlash. Unless they are muslims.


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Too bad that there's nothing in the bible mentioning that gay people shouldn't be gay. There is a very confused part in the old testament (whom any Christian, by default, should not follow) and a personal consideration of one of the apostles. That's it. Jesus, on the other hand, preached people to be good and don't bother others.
> 
> Also, as I already mentioned, the very small minority of people who are against LGBT rights get a huge backlash. Unless they are muslims.




OUR FUCKING VICE PRESIDENT THINKS GAYS SHOULD BE BEATEN UNTIL THEY ARE STRAIGHT!

Don't give me this fucking "Very small minority" shit. 

http://www.hrc.org/blog/100-anti-lgbtq-bills-introduced-in-2017

Hell.. It's ILLEGAL FOR A RESTAURANT TO LET ME USE A SINGLE PERSON WOMAN'S BATHROOM IF THE MEN'S BATHROOM IS OUT OF GODAMN FUCKING ORDER!


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> It's disappointing reading the racist comments encouraging people of the Islamic faith to convert to Christianity...I mean both sides have their terrorists. It\s quite tiring more often then not these people don\t understand why these problems exist in the first place...they like to go to the easy problem such as they are Muslim...it's sickening and tiring. And it irritates me how the moderators allow this one sided attack on a faith group.
> 
> How can it? There isn't much that can be done aside from sending troops into Iraq and Syria and maybe Mindanao if the Philippines allows it. Unlike the gun attacks in the US...there isn't so much that can be done unless you want Europe to resemble Nazi Germany or Chechnya.




They already have troops in Syria - western involvement in Syria and Libya is a large part of why these attacks have been occurring so frequently.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Too bad that there's nothing in the bible mentioning that gay people shouldn't be gay. There is a very confused part in the old testament (whom any Christian, by default, should not follow) and a personal consideration of one of the apostles. That's it. Jesus, on the other hand, preached people to be good and don't bother others.
> 
> Also, as I already mentioned, the very small minority of people who are against LGBT rights get a huge backlash. Unless they are muslimsh.


Not true...Muslims also get backlash from that. Only the Muslim majority countries don't and that's largely due to Europe and the United States not caring enough to try and pressure them to fix it. In fact these countries, by that I mean Western Asia and Indonesia, are so fragile and problematic now LARGELY due to Europe and interference from the U.S.


----------



## MionissNio (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> This is a very good point you are making and I'm glad someone who thinks Islam isn't the problem did that. You reminded me of Uganda, with the majority of people being Christian, and it's also the worst place to be an LGBT member, with people in the parliament wanting to outlaw it as much as possible and the newspapers doing witch hunts to catch the gay people who "don't want to change" or the people who do "curative rape".
> 
> But I don't agree with those countries having a delicate issue to be the problem. In case of Uganda, the overwhelming majority of the word condemned the place and even the Pope mentioned how crazy it is. Everyone agrees that everyone has human rights and the very minority of people who agreed with Uganda has been flooded with backlash. Why can't it be the same with Islam? The qu'ran has a lot of verses about killing people. Mohammed married a little girl. The sharia law condemns people who leave the faith with death. These, together with many other issues, are "culturally diverse" and "not a big of deal" for people. Millions of Muslims want the sharia law to be part of their country's law. They also sympathize with terrorists and are against LGBT people. Yet, if you dare to mention these incompatibilities with the western societies, you are a bigot. There is a big elephant in the room nobody is willing to address, and THIS is how you eventually make people who want all muslims to be dead. I'm not part of those people, I just want the world to address the problem and to act accordingly, instead of reporting people on Twitter for "hate speech" or defending the muslim community.


Umm Islam does receive backlash you just did it right now! Wikiislam exists religion of peace exist and so many more examples in YouTube comments. The problem is both sides are ignorant as fuck the brainwashed sharians and right wingers alike.

Muhammad was a great figure at the time he existed because that time the it was either kill or be killed in the Arab civilization, even then killing was avoided as much as possible.

But now situation is different most *Radical* Muslim fail to realize times have utterly changed and war means bad for both sides once the west gets aggressive whole middle East us nothing but pure Glass (not gorrila).

Thing thing alt right and Muslim fail to understand is that Muhammad was also honest, kind, and wise and all these qualities which are mandatory, these qualities were to  r applied in the future right now! Times change and Islam is highly misunderstood by both sides, Quran is a complicated book and hard to interpret properly so hard that sects exist on different interpretations.

Muslim tend to censor skepticism against the religion but imho it's the skepticism that will make you seek more truth and be able defended the religion more accurately.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> OUR FUCKING VICE PRESIDENT THINKS GAYS SHOULD BE BEATEN UNTIL THEY ARE STRAIGHT!
> 
> Don't give me this fucking "Very small minority" shit.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Have they passed? Has the supreme court backed out from making any attempt to be futile? Of course not.

Also, sources about the vice president or never happened.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> OUR FUCKING VICE PRESIDENT THINKS GAYS SHOULD BE BEATEN UNTIL THEY ARE STRAIGHT!
> 
> Don't give me this fucking "Very small minority" shit.
> 
> ...



You parrot the same style horse shit that 'right-wing' media peddlers sell on the other side of the political spectrum.

Do you actually have a quote from Pence saying that "We should beat gays until they are straight" ?


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> They already have troops in Syria - western involvement in Syria and Libya is a large part of why these attacks have been occurring so frequently.


That\s my point though....there isn't much that can be done unless you want a Nazi style Europe And sorry that I didn't know about British involvement in Syria. I live in Japan so I sometimes miss things.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> That\s my point though....there isn't much that can be done unless you want a Nazi style Europe And sorry that I didn't know about British involvement in Syria. I live in Japan so I sometimes miss things.



Restricting immigration and clamping down on extremist preachers is not creating a  'Nazi Europe' - nor is it likely a solution itself.


----------



## Ritsuki (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> This is a very good point you are making and I'm glad someone who thinks Islam isn't the problem did that. You reminded me of Uganda, with the majority of people being Christian, and it's also the worst place to be an LGBT member, with people in the parliament wanting to outlaw it as much as possible and the newspapers doing witch hunts to catch the gay people who "don't want to change" or the people who do "curative rape".
> 
> But I don't agree with those countries having a delicate issue to be the problem. In case of Uganda, the overwhelming majority of the word condemned the place and even the Pope mentioned how crazy it is. Everyone agrees that everyone has human rights and the very minority of people who agreed with Uganda has been flooded with backlash. Why can't it be the same with Islam? The qu'ran has a lot of verses about killing people. Mohammed married a little girl. The sharia law condemns people who leave the faith with death. These, together with many other issues, are "culturally diverse" and "not a big of deal" for people. Millions of Muslims want the sharia law to be part of their country's law. They also sympathize with terrorists and are against LGBT people. Yet, if you dare to mention these incompatibilities with the western societies, you are a bigot. There is a big elephant in the room nobody is willing to address, and THIS is how you eventually make people who want all muslims to be dead. I'm not part of those people, I just want the world to address the problem and to act accordingly, instead of reporting people on Twitter for "hate speech" or defending the muslim community.


To be honest I was hesitating talking about that here, most of the time I talk about Islam, people get crazy  We cannot have a proper debate if people are not willing to search for the truth. I'm lucky because I was born in a very modern muslim family, so I know Islam, but since I was born and raised in Switzerland, I have enough cultural detachment to at least try to understand where is the real problem.

Anyway, thank you for exchanging these words full of wisdom with us, my friend


----------



## erman1337 (Jun 4, 2017)

MionissNio said:


> Thing thing alt right and Muslim fail to understand is that Muhammad was also honest, kind, and wise and all these qualities which are mandatory, these qualities were to  r applied in the future right now! Times change and Islam is highly misunderstood by both sides, Quran is a complicated book and hard to interpret properly
> so hard that sects exist on different interpretations.


he was also a pedophile


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Restricting immigration and clamping down on extremist preachers is not creating a  'Nazi Europe' - nor is it likely a solution itself.


Restricting immigration is fine unless you restrict just Muslims and well it would probably also deteriorate things further as you know Europe is simply dying off. Its like Japan. It needs immigrants. So that would damage Europe....


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

erman1337 said:


> he was also a pedophile



You do realize back in those times girls as young as 10 and 12 were married away regularly right? And I may I remind people that the term pedophile is often greatly mis-used. Most than likely the girl he was wed to had gone through puberty, thus it would no longer be pedophilia. People seem to get pedophilia and "Age of consent" confused when they are two very different things.

As for the Mike Pence thing:

"In a surprise announcement today, Indiana Governor and Vice President-elect Mike Pence said that gay conversion therapy saved his marriage. The controversial Republican, who was elected the 50th governor of the Hoosier State, has been a long-time proponent of a “Biblical view” on homosexuality and as a member of Congress stated that the legislative branch “should oppose any effort to recognize homosexuals as a ‘discrete and insular minority’ entitled to the protection of anti-discrimination laws similar to those extended to women and ethnic minorities.”

“It[gay conversion therapy] was instrumental in helping me overcoming certain urges,” said the Vice President elect in an interview with Fox News. “With God’s help, and the work of many of his therapists, I was able to seek the straight path when I was a younger man. If it wasn’t for that, I would have never been able to marry.”"


And I've never seen a "Conversion Therapy" that wasn't literally torture.


----------



## Lucifer666 (Jun 4, 2017)

noragrets said:


> why is islam still a thing nowdays?
> all muslims need to convert to christianity if they're to be allowed in western societies





queendude said:


> Muslims got tired of France, now they want to fuck the shit out of britain guys, other countries are chillin right now lol



Are you both insane?

Edit: Muslim living in London here. The attack was 20 mins away from where I live. Very sad, spent all of last night and this morning watching the news and listening to witness reports. This is definitely an attempt to mix up people's feelings about the election on Thursday, no doubt. Thoughts go out to the people affected or who had the daylights scared out of them. I had to call my ex to make sure she's all right since she basically lives round a corner from the bridge.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Restricting immigration is fine unless you restrict just Muslims and well it would probably also deteriorate things further as you know Europe is simply dying off. Its like Japan. It needs immigrants. So that would damage Europe....



Replacement doesn't save a culture,

As a Japanese citizen you should naturally be aware of the fact that as population has declined in Japan over the last 3 decades virtually all metrics related to quality of life have increased - why do you think this is? Do you think it's possible that the population decline itself is natural, and will recover naturally? Are you willing to risk your culture and security with immigration?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Tigran said:


> As for the Mike Pence thing:
> 
> "In a surprise announcement today, Indiana Governor and Vice President-elect Mike Pence said that gay conversion therapy saved his marriage. The controversial Republican, who was elected the 50th governor of the Hoosier State, has been a long-time proponent of a “Biblical view” on homosexuality and as a member of Congress stated that the legislative branch “should oppose any effort to recognize homosexuals as a ‘discrete and insular minority’ entitled to the protection of anti-discrimination laws similar to those extended to women and ethnic minorities.”
> 
> ...



Fact check that.


----------



## erman1337 (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> You do realize back in those times girls as young as 10 and 12 were married away regularly right? And I may I remind people that the term pedophile is often greatly mis-used. Most than likely the girl he was wed to had gone through puberty, thus it would no longer be pedophilia. People seem to get pedophilia and "Age of consent" confused when they are two very different things.


Forced marriages are still rampant in many islamic societies today


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Replacement doesn't save a culture,
> 
> As a Japanese citizen you should naturally be aware of the fact that as population has declined in Japan over the last 3 decades virtually all metrics related to quality of life have increased - why do you think this is? Do you think it's possible that the population decline itself is natural, and will recover naturally? Are you willing to risk your culture and security with immigration?


Um I am an immigrant to Japan as well. My husband is a Japanese citizen... and I can tell you thats some racist bullshit. And ummmm... I dont think you understand why Japans quality of life is so good. Its largely due to sacrifices made by the Japanese people due to the lack of population and crippling debt affecting this country and an uncaring political elite. And well, you risk your culture and your future regardless...


----------



## Tigran (Jun 4, 2017)

They are still rampant in the US too.. Just under different names. 

Hell.. SLAVERY is still rampant in the US as people buy and sell kids and such.


----------



## Lucifer666 (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Are you willing to risk your culture and security with immigration?



I believe you need to read up on correlation vs causation


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Um I am an immigrant to Japan as well. My husband is a Japanese citizen... and I can tell you thats some racist bullshit. And ummmm... I dont think you understand why Japans quality of life is so good. Its largely due to sacrifices made by the Japanese people due to the lack of population and crippling debt affecting this country and an uncaring political elite. And well, you risk your culture and your future regardless...



So, it has absolutely nothing to do with automation and how productivity per work-hour has increased with it? I wouldn't romanticize the population like that.
Also, while Japans debt problem is incredibly troubling it is not insurmountable.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> So, it has absolutely nothing to do with automation and how productivity per work-hour has increased with it? I wouldn't romanticize the population like that.
> Also, while Japans debt problem is incredibly troubling it is not insurmountable.


No, it doesn't that is completely wrong. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. Its due to the heavy burdens placed on our part time workers. Why do you think 711 is so convenient? Its because of all of the sacrifices made. And ummm its incredibly common for people here to work 12 to 14 hour days for low wages. Yeah our debt is more than incredibly troubling its value is 2 years worth of our GDP  and OUR population is actually shrinking.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Um I am an immigrant to Japan as well. My husband is a Japanese citizen... and I can tell you thats some racist bullshit. And ummmm... I dont think you understand why Japans quality of life is so good. Its largely due to sacrifices made by the Japanese people due to the lack of population and crippling debt affecting this country and an uncaring political elite. And well, you risk your culture and your future regardless...



Lack of debt? hows fukushima working out for your debt?


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Lack of debt? hows fukushima working out for your debt?


Ok wow you are an ignorant racist who literally knows shit. I bet you cant place Fukushima on a map or even know what large cities its by. And guess what its impact to the Japanese debt was minimal


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Ok wow you are an ignorant racist who literally knows shit. I bet you cant place Fukushima on a map or even know what large cities its by. And guess what its impact to the Japanese debt was minimal



How did you pull the racist card on me for questioning your countries debt? you're a knobhead.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> How did you pull the racist card on me for questioning your countries debt? you're a knobhead.


Read what you wrote! You are an obvious troll or just stupid.If you want to learn about the reasons for Japans debt...I will kindly direct you to google.com


----------



## erman1337 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Ok wow you are an ignorant racist who literally knows shit. I bet you cant place Fukushima on a map or even know what large cities its by. And guess what its impact to the Japanese debt was minimal


People won't take you seriously if you keep calling everyone you don't agree with a racist


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

'


smile72 said:


> Read what you wrote! You are an obvious troll or just stupid.If you want to learn about the reasons for Japans debt...I will kindly direct you to google.com



Please explain what part of my comment is racist.


----------



## leon315 (Jun 4, 2017)

noragrets said:


> but not all muslims are terrorists


For they shall be all quarantined to prevent further possible terrorist attacks.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

erman1337 said:


> People won't take you seriously if you keep calling everyone you don't agree with a racist


Read what he wrote. Ive read this garbage for years with ignorant uninformed people talking like they know about Fukushima but they know nothing. Its tiring.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> No, it doesn't that is completely wrong. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. Its due to the heavy burdens placed on our part time workers. Why do you think 711 is so convenient? Its because of all of the sacrifices made. And ummm its incredibly common for people here to work 12 to 14 hour days for low wages



Much of the burden is placed on low wage/part-time workers everywhere in the developed world, this is not unique to Japan - what is unique to Japan is the level of automation that has been introduced.




smile72 said:


> Yeah our debt is more than incredibly troubling its value is 2 years worth of our GDP  and OUR population is actually shrinking.


Again, not insurmountable.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Lack of debt?_ hows fukushima working out for your debt?_



The part italicized.


----------



## Lord M (Jun 4, 2017)

Not strange.
Fake terrorist attacks in the most masons country of Europe.
Before USA, masons HQ was in England in fact.

ISIS, terrorists... not exist, its a fable; they are masons soldiers.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> The part italicized.




How is that racist? You are a moron, the truth is the rest of the world will be paying your countries debt of killing the planet for the rest of our days.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

barronwaffles said:


> Much of the burden is placed on low wage/part-time workers everywhere in the developed world, this is not unique to Japan - what is unique to Japan is the level of automation that has been introduced.
> 
> Again, not insurmountable.


Again not correct...im not just talking about their burdens. Im talking about the salary men and school teachers. They normally work 12 to 14 hour days....my friend a teacher works 16 hour days its incredibly common.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

[QUOTE="mech, post: 7367226, member: 355425"_]How is that racist? You are a moron, the truth is the rest of the world will be paying your countries debt of killing the planet for the rest of our days._[/QUOTE]

Tiring dealing with ignorant people. The amount of radiation was minimal and its safe now.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Again not correct...im not just talking about their burdens. Im talking about the salary men and school teachers. They normally work 12 to 14 hour days....my friend a teacher works 16 hour days its incredibly common.



And if you didn't just have anecdotes you would know that these working conditions have been on the decline in Japan for the last 10 years - with many expecting a natural rise in the birth rate as a result.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Again not correct...im not just talking about their burdens. Im talking about the salary men and school teachers. They normally work 12 to 14 hour days....my friend a teacher works 16 hour days its incredibly common.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> [QUOTE="mech, post: 7367226, member: 355425"_]How is that racist? You are a moron, the truth is the rest of the world will be paying your countries debt of killing the planet for the rest of our days._



Tiring dealing with ignorant people. The amount of radiation was minimal and its safe now.[/QUOTE]


Now safe? you really do lap up your commie bullshit over there lol. Its leaking 400tonnes of radioactive water into the sea daily.


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## Zero72463 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Tiring dealing with ignorant people. The amount of radiation was minimal and its safe now.
> 
> Now safe? you really do lap up your commie bullshit over there lol. Its leaking 400tonnes of radioactive water into the sea daily.



Communist? lol


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## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Now safe? you really do lap up your commie bullshit over there lol. Its leaking 400tonnes of radioactive water into the sea daily.



She/He's right - it's largely contained and the content *leaking* into the ocean is incredibly diluted. The word 'Radiation' carries alot of baggage that scares people, often unnecessarily.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Tiring dealing with ignorant people. The amount of radiation was minimal and its safe now.




Now safe? you really do lap up your commie bullshit over there lol. Its leaking 400tonnes of radioactive water into the sea daily.[/QUOTE]
commie? Japan is not communist???? You seem heavily misinformed.


----------



## leon315 (Jun 4, 2017)

DontShootUp said:


> Yeah, this is pretty awful. Sorry you guys have to deal with this.  As an American its pretty hard to understand what it's like to live somewhere with frequent terror attacks. We've got a much higher chance of dying from heart attacks or being killed by the police.


Or white states being killed by blacks, or viceversa


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Now safe? you really do lap up your commie bullshit over there lol. Its leaking 400tonnes of radioactive water into the sea daily.


commie? Japan is not communist???? You seem heavily misinformed.[/QUOTE]


https://www.sciencealert.com/radiat...ma-reactor-have-started-unexpectedly-climbing

Have a read racist.


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## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> commie? Japan is not communist???? You seem heavily misinformed.



He forgot how Japan used to deal with communists :


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> commie? Japan is not communist???? You seem heavily misinformed.




https://www.sciencealert.com/radiat...ma-reactor-have-started-unexpectedly-climbing

Have a read racist.[/QUOTE]
Fucking irritating. can you read English.....if so read the bottom....

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



barronwaffles said:


> He forgot how Japan used to deal with communists :



The communists were a terrorist group until recently ..;....


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> https://www.sciencealert.com/radiat...ma-reactor-have-started-unexpectedly-climbing
> 
> Have a read racist.



Did... did you actually read what you posted?

"There's been no official word from the Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) about exactly what it is in this location that's caused this high reading. But the good news is that they say the radiation is safely contained within the reactor, so there's no risk to the greater population"


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> https://www.sciencealert.com/radiat...ma-reactor-have-started-unexpectedly-climbing
> 
> Have a read racist.


Fucking irritating. can you read English.....if so read the bottom....[/QUOTE]

https://www.greenoptimistic.com/fukushima-radioactive-water-20170302/
http://www.mintpressnews.com/2-robo...s-radiation-leaking-fukushima-daiichi/225183/

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



barronwaffles said:


> Did... did you actually read what you posted?
> 
> "There's been no official word from the Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) about exactly what it is in this location that's caused this high reading. But the good news is that they say the radiation is safely contained within the reactor, so there's no risk to the greater population"



They cannot even get near it to check that, the robots they send in die in minutes, the fuel rods have more then likely melted thorough into the ground and have been lost.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



barronwaffles said:


> Did... did you actually read what you posted?
> 
> "There's been no official word from the Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) about exactly what it is in this location that's caused this high reading. But the good news is that they say the radiation is safely contained within the reactor, so there's no risk to the greater population"



Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) lied from the start and said everything is fine, it wasnt and still isnt... they cannot be trusted.


----------



## vinstage (Jun 4, 2017)

kikongokiller said:


> Just heard about it live on the news, I'll never understand how some people could be so terrible.


Extremists. Replying with Muslims is complete generalisation and as I've said before not all Muslims are bad people.
When it all comes down to it, beliefs are simply beliefs and just that. You have a right to choose in what you believe in but taking it to the extremes like these terrorists isn't justice nor a belief any longer.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> They cannot even get near it to check that, the robots they send in die in minutes, the fuel rods have more then likely melted thorough into the ground and have been lost.



The robots/probes didn't simply just 'die', the supply cables to them were damaged by the radiation levels. Not an unsurmountable problem.
I'll not speculate as to the condition/location of the fuel rods until there is evidence that they have actually been lost and are contaminating the surrounding environment.



mech said:


> Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) lied from the start and said everything is fine, it wasnt and still isnt... they cannot be trusted.



Yet they were the ones that announced the unexpected radiation levels?


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Fucking irritating. can you read English.....if so read the bottom....



https://www.greenoptimistic.com/fukushima-radioactive-water-20170302/
http://www.mintpressnews.com/2-robo...s-radiation-leaking-fukushima-daiichi/225183/

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



They cannot even get near it to check that, the robots they send in die in minutes, the fuel rods have more then likely melted thorough into the ground and have been lost.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) lied from the start and said everything is fine, it wasnt and still isnt... they cannot be trusted.[/QUOTE]
I honestly dont understand your point and its tiring replying to you.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Lord M said:


> Not strange.
> Fake terrorist attacks in the most masons country of Europe.
> Before USA, masons HQ was in England in fact.
> 
> ISIS, terrorists... not exist, its a fable; they are masons soldiers.





leon315 said:


> Or white states being killed by blacks, or viceversa


Thank God I don't live in Italy anymore otherwise people would group me up with people like you guys.


----------



## Zero72463 (Jun 4, 2017)

vinstage said:


> Extremists. Replying with Muslims is complete generalisation and as I've said before not all Muslims are bad people.
> When it all comes down to it, beliefs are simply beliefs and just that. You have a right to choose in what you believe in but taking it to the extremes like these terrorists isn't justice nor a belief any longer.



Well said, honestly a terrorist can claim they are whatever religion (if any) that they represent, but does that really make them whatever they are (ie Muslim)? At the end of the day you can call yourself whatever you want, but if you don't follow the proper beliefs you aren't really whatever you think you are (from a religious standpoint). This is the case for terrorists, even they know what they do is wrong they know that yet they won't quit saying they are doing it for God or some religion. They do not only take it many steps further, but they don't even take the steps for being a proper Muslim. In the end I don't consider terrorists Muslims I consider them crazy people with no purpose but to cause harm, but they consider themselves Muslims. That is not Islamic people's faults though.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> I honestly dont understand your point and its tiring replying to you.



Point is you are constantly lied to and by you saying everything is fixed, safe and dandy is total bullshit, you called me a racist and couldn't explain why. you are full of shit.


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## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Point is you are constantly lied to and by you saying everything is fixed, safe and dandy is total bullshit, you called me a racist and couldn't explain why. you are full of shit.


You are just a crazy person. If they were honestly lying and truly wanted to hide the truth then they would alter data...just like the Soviet Union did. But they announced it to the public. And Japan is a safe place. If you think otherwise...you are misguided.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> You are just a crazy person. If they were honestly lying then they would alter data...just like the Soviet Union did. But they announced it to the public. And Japan is a safe place. If you think otherwise...you are misguided.




https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...clear-cleanup-falters-six-years-after-tsunami


i can post hundreds of websites and news outlets that prove you wrong.


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## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...clear-cleanup-falters-six-years-after-tsunami
> 
> 
> i can post hundreds of websites and news outlets that prove you wrong.


You aren't proving me wrong. Japan is still safe . Show me massive terrorist attacks...show me radiation spreading to Kushiro, Naha, or even Hahajima...probably you dont know where any of those places are. You aren't proving me wrong You are jerking yourself off.

EDIT: By that I mean MASSIVE radiation levels.


----------



## vinstage (Jun 4, 2017)

Zero72463 said:


> snip.


I agree completely. It's never been proven that what they're doing is following their religion, what they're following is a path of hatred and the words of twisted madmen who believe that what they provoke and what they do are the actions of a true Muslim.

It's sad and I pity those who've had to feel guilt for what those who claim to be Muslim have done (they shouldn't, because anyone with understanding would know that this isn't on them) and those who've been manipulated through outlets into believing that terrorism is okay. It's sad and sickening.


----------



## leon315 (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Thank God I don't live in Italy anymore otherwise people would group me up with people like you guys.


I Don't understand why Italians keep wasting our taxes trying to rescue all those black muslim refugees at Lampedusa, they should just keep them away from coasts few more days and we probably could prevent those IS' infiltrations to reach other EU countries. 

P. S. Do u guys know which is the worst sin ever committed?? Putting pineapples on pizza! If you put pineshits on n pizza, then ur life is mean less, ur parents don't want you, and Jesus doesn't love u. 
Spicy salame on pizza rulez!


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Sadiq Khan turns out to be right in saying that terror attacks are part and parcel for a big city. It's just so infuriating that it has to be that way at all.


Tokyo is the biggest city in the world and it does not have these problems.
2 reasons: a) low Muslim population b) Muslim population is monitored (Japanese don't give a f* about being called racist)


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Tokyo is the biggest city in the world and it does not have these problems.
> 2 reasons: a) low Muslim population b) Muslim population is monitored (Japanese don't give a f* about being called racist)


Ummmm again please dont spread this racist bullshit about my country....thats not true. It has lower crime due to a number of reasons.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Ummmm again please dont spread this racist bullshit about my country....thats not true. It has lower crime due to a number of reasons.



The two statements he made are correct though?


----------



## Windowlicker (Jun 4, 2017)

Do not blame Muslims for this. Blame the fanaticism religions create.


----------



## Lucifer666 (Jun 4, 2017)

Elysium420 said:


> Do not blame Muslims for this. Blame the fanaticism religions create.


On point. I'm so deeply hurt every time something like this happens, both in sympathy of the victims and their families, and in anticipation of all the Islamophobia that rises afterwards (as a non-religious but Muslim-raised person.)


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Ummmm again please dont spread this racist bullshit about my country....thats not true. It has lower crime due to a number of reasons.


You aren't really contributing to the thread here. You keep calling people racists and have no counterarguments. This is not how a discussion is done. If you don't like what's being said but don't have anything to back up any of your claims, then don't post or you will look like an ass.


----------



## Windowlicker (Jun 4, 2017)

Lucifer666 said:


> On point. I'm so deeply hurt every time something like this happens, both in sympathy of the victims and their families, and in anticipation of all the Islamophobia that rises afterwards (as a non-religious but Muslim-raised person.)


These bastards make the whole Arab world look like murderers, while they only wish for their peace and quiet.


----------



## vinstage (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Ummmm again please dont spread this racist bullshit about my country....thats not true. It has lower crime due to a number of reasons.


Do enlighten us with your reasoning on him being a racist. I would love to know honestly.
You're not contributing at all here.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> You aren't really contributing to the thread here. You keep calling people racists and have no counterarguments. This is not how a discussion is done. If you don't like what's being said but don't have anything to back up any of your claims, then don't post or you will look like an ass.


Um then dont make random comments about Japan and yes what those two said was racist and they look like assholes for being racist and I did make valid counter arguments please go read them. I honestly hope you can learn to read. I would appreciate that. Then tell me Im not contributing.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Ummmm again please dont spread this racist bullshit about my country....thats not true. It has lower crime due to a number of reasons.


Do you live in Japan or are you Japanese? Ethnically.
What part of my comment was racist? Japanese care more about security and are not afraid to do the right thing even if others call them racist.


----------



## vinstage (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Um then dont make random comments about Japan and yes what those two said was racist and they look like assholes for being racist and I did make valid counter arguments please go read them.* I honestly hope you can learn to read.* I would appreciate that. Then tell me Im not contributing.


You say learn to read however, if most of us couldn't read here (as I see you throwing this insult a lot) I don't think we would've got this far.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Um then dont make random comments about Japan and yes what those two said was racist and they look like assholes for being racist and I did make valid counter arguments please go read them. I honestly hope you can learn to read. I would appreciate that. Then tell me Im not contributing.


Whatever you say hon, I just wrote that to help you. Feel free to dig your own hole.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

vinstage said:


> Do enlighten us with your reasoning on him being a racist. I would love to know honestly.
> You're not contributing at all here.


One reason that could be possible is that Japan is not multicultural its almost entirtely Japanese. Its not due to any reasons related to Islam. One possible reason for the low crime is rather the absence of religion. Yes there is religion but most Japanese are more spiritual than religious.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Um then dont make random comments about Japan and yes what those two said was racist and they look like assholes for being racist and I did make valid counter arguments please go read them. I honestly hope you can learn to read. I would appreciate that. Then tell me Im not contributing.



You could craft a million fidget spinners from this post.


----------



## Ritsuki (Jun 4, 2017)

vinstage said:


> Do enlighten us with your reasoning on him being a racist. I would love to know honestly.
> You're not contributing at all here.


I'm not defending him on his usage of the word "racist", but when someone tells that Tokyo is safe because there are only few muslims and they are monitored, I think "racist" might be one of the adjectives that pops in mind  I'm not telling he is, but he sounds like. Also we can also argue on the definition of racism, but even if it's an interesting topic, it's not the subject here


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Whatever you say hon, I just wrote that to help you. Feel free to dig your own hole.


iIm not digging my own hole some German guy suddenly brought up how Japanese are proudly racist...thats not true most Japanese are not racist in fact many were appalled when there were the anti Korean demonstrators near Shin Okubo. It was horrifying. Those racist protesters were awful. And that other guy was obsessed with Fukushima and kept bringing that up and other false claims.


----------



## vinstage (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> One reason that could be possible is that Japan is not multicultural its almost entirtely Japanese. Its not due to any reasons related to Islam. One possible reason for the low crime is rather the absence of religion. Yes there is religion but most Japanese are more spiritual than religious.


Still doesn't really answer as to why that user's a racist person.
Please don't throw that term around so lightly.


Ritsuki said:


> I'm not defending him on his usage of the word "racist", but when someone tells that Tokyo is safe because there are only few muslims and they are monitored, I think "racist" might be one of the adjectives that pops in mind  I'm not telling he is, but he sounds like. Also we can also argue on the definition of racism, but even if it's an interesting topic, it's not the subject here


This isn't actually the first user he's thrown that term at.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

vinstage said:


> Still doesn't really answer as to why that user's a racist person.
> Please don't throw that term around so lightly.
> 
> This isn't actually the first user he's thrown that term at.


No the other guy was saying nonsense about Fukushima. Like they think it effects the whole world or even the rest of Japan. But I should mention I never called the German guy racist. I just called what he said racist bullshit and it was.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

Elysium420 said:


> Do not blame Muslims for this. Blame the fanaticism religions create.


Muslims are not to blame. Islam is. There is a difference between ideology and people.

Catholicism has allowed (and still allows) pedophiles to sexually abuse children.
Can you imagine the media and politicians being afraid of an anti-Catholic backlash after a new case?


----------



## Windowlicker (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Muslims are not to blame. Islam is. There is a difference between ideology and people.
> 
> Catholicism has allowed (and still allows) pedophiles to sexually abuse children.
> Can you imagine the media and politicians being afraid of an anti-Catholic backlash after a new case?


Glad we both agree that religion is destructive.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> One reason that could be possible is that Japan is not multicultural its almost entirtely Japanese. Its not due to any reasons related to Islam. One possible reason for the low crime is rather the absence of religion. Yes there is religion but most Japanese are more spiritual than religious.


But but but religion has nothing to do with it.
Can I call you a racist now in return?


----------



## Julizi (Jun 4, 2017)

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too"


----------



## Ritsuki (Jun 4, 2017)

vinstage said:


> This isn't actually the first user he's thrown that term at.



Yeah, that's why I'm not defending him haha  

But more seriously, as a non native english speaker, it's super hard to have that kind of discussion, even more when you feel concerned, because you have to express difficult and complex thought but with a langage that is not yours, which sometimes leads to big shortcuts in the discussion where more explanation would have been a good thing. And with sensitive sujects like that, like said Vipera, you have to give the maximum amount of info and accept that people can have an opinion about anything, even if they're wrong. That's why we should all make an effort for being at least polite, because this is an important and very interesting topic, and except for the trolls and shitposts, I really feel we're going somewhere in this debate


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> But but but religion has nothing to do with it.
> Can I call you a racist now in return?


No, I'm just saying a possible reason could perhaps be for the abscence of religion or the homogeneous nature of Japan. You should remember even among other Asian nations that Japan is incredibly unique. For its personality, its culture, and such. So thats why I used the term possible. And stop blaming Islam its tiring.Christian terrorism happens too. Just ask Oregon. And may I ask have you even lived in Japan for any period of time?


----------



## Ritsuki (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> But but but religion has nothing to do with it.
> Can I call you a racist now in return?



I don't understand your point of view, if religion has nothing to do, why even bring Japan into this discussion ? If you could clarify what you mean, that would be nice 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



smile72 said:


> No, I'm just saying a possible reason could perhaps be for the abscence of religion or the homogeneous nature of Japan. You should remember even among other Asian nations that Japan is incredibly unique. For its personality, its culture, and such. So thats why I used the term possible. And stop blaming Islam its tiring.Christian terrorism happens too. Just ask Oregon. And may I ask have you even lived in Japan for any period of time?


A bit off topice, but as a big fan of Japan, I understand why foreigners has this perception of Japan. For a long time Japan was secluded (well, it's an island after all ) and they had really bad experience with the first foreigners in the past. Thing is, Japan is not racist as we think, actually it's more like a very very very shy country, and very traditional. But it's not that they don't like strangers, they're just super suspicious of anyone who isn't japanese  

And please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

Ritsuki said:


> I don't understand your point of view, if religion has nothing to do, why even bring Japan into this discussion ? If you could clarify what you mean, that would be nice
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


No, you are correct Japan is not racist...well most Japanese are not racist...Most Japanese are quite reserved and as such a lot of foreigners tend to view Japanese as overtly friendly when they are just being polite. It really means nothing its secondhand to them. Its part of their personality.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> No, I'm just saying a possible reason could perhaps be for the abscence of religion or the homogeneous nature of Japan. You should remember even among other Asian nations that Japan is incredibly unique. For its personality, its culture, and such. So thats why I used the term possible. And stop blaming Islam its tiring.Christian terrorism happens too. Just ask Oregon. And may I ask have you even lived in Japan for any period of time?


So again, religion has something to do with it by your own admission.
Can I please call you a racist now? If not, why not?

I have not been in Japan. Maybe my view is biased. It is based on a documentary I watched and articles like these:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...rveillance-japan-muslims-160629040956466.html

I will stop talking about Japan if you stop talking about Islam. Have you read the Quran, Sunna and Sira?

*So I officially take back the claim that Japanese authorities monitor Muslims more than those of other countries*. I apologize for making that claim.

My argument is as follows: Countries with a low or non-existent Muslim population are not (or much less) plagued by Islamic terrorists.
Can we agree on that?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Ritsuki said:


> I don't understand your point of view, if religion has nothing to do, why even bring Japan into this discussion ? If you could clarify what you mean, that would be nice


Certainly, Sir. The first post quoted the mayor of London who has said that terrorism is "part and parcel" of living in a big city. I countered this claim by saying the biggest country in the world, Tokyo, does not have a problem with Allahu Akbar screaming, throat cutting, cartoonist killing "incidents".


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So again, religion has something to do with it by your own admission.
> Can I please call you a racist now? If not, why not?
> 
> I have not been in Japan. Maybe my view is biased. It is based on a documentary I watched and articles like these:
> ...


Nope we cannot because the reasons at least about why Japan has a  low crime is not related to that and I have read portions of the Qaran. I haven't had time to read the whole book yet. Im sorry about that. The police might monitor some Muslim residents of japan but...we should mention that this one of the darker sides of Japan and this IS NOT one of the reasons why we are so safe. However yes I would like to stop talking about Japan as its tiring as I came in here to discuss the London attacks but person after person keeps mentioning Japan.


----------



## MionissNio (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So again, religion has something to do with it by your own admission.
> Can I please call you a racist now? If not, why not?
> 
> I have not been in Japan. Maybe my view is biased. It is based on a documentary I watched and articles like these:
> ...





smile72 said:


> Nope we cannot because the reasons at least about why Japan has a  low crime is not related to that and I have read portions of the Qaran. I haven't had time to read the whole book yet. Im sorry about that. The police might monitor some Muslim residents of japan but...we should mention that this one of the darker sides of Japan and this IS NOT one of the reasons why we are so safe. However yes I would like to stop talking about Japan as its tiring as I came in here to discuss the London attacks but person after person keeps mentioning Japan.



If you read the Quran I highly recommend reading the interpretation of these verses and discussing them with Imams as well.


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## theoldbucwild (Jun 4, 2017)

Tigran said:


> Bwahahahah! Christianity... BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! Yeah right.. Like that's -any- better.


how many problems have Christians made? What about Jews too? It's not like everyday there is a new Muslim attack. Religion of Peace right?


----------



## Ritsuki (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Certainly, Sir. The first post quoted the mayor of London who has said that terrorism is "part and parcel" of living in a big city. I countered this claim by saying the biggest country in the world, Tokyo, does not have a problem with Allahu Akbar screaming, throat cutting, cartoonist killing "incidents".



Thank you, that actually makes way more sense to me now 



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> My argument is as follows: Countries with a low or non-existent Muslim population are not (or much less) plagued by Islamic terrorists.



What do you mean by low ? 10% ? Less ? More ?

Well in a sense you're right, the less muslims there is, the less islam related crimes there will be, but that's a valid point for any group of people lol


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## MionissNio (Jun 4, 2017)

theoldbucwild said:


> how many problems have Christians made? What about Jews too? It's not like everyday there is a new Muslim attack. Religion of Peace right?


Hmm I'm a Muslim and it really concerns me when did Islam become religion of peace? Infact no group in the world is for peace, infact peace itself is a human construct.


----------



## theoldbucwild (Jun 4, 2017)

MionissNio said:


> Hmm I'm a Muslim and it really concerns me when did Islam become religion of peace? Infact no group in the world is for peace, infact peace itself is a human construct.


I hear it all the time.


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## MionissNio (Jun 4, 2017)

theoldbucwild said:


> I hear it all the time.


No it's not you it's everywhere and I'm seriously concerned did Muslims start this or who did?


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## theoldbucwild (Jun 4, 2017)

MionissNio said:


> No it's not you it's everywhere and I'm seriously concerned did Muslims start this or who did?


Well it really all started:

http://www.crf-usa.org/america-resp...rom-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> The police might monitor some Muslim residents of japan but...we should mention that this one of the darker sides of Japan and this IS NOT one of the reasons why we are so safe.


Sorry for bringing this up again but I'm confused.
Did you call me racist for implying that Japanese authorities monitor Muslims (a) or for implying that Islam has something to do with ISLAMIC/ISLAMIST terror attacks (b).
If a: Then why do you seem to agree with me all of a sudden even though I took back that claim for lack of knowledge?
If b: Islam is not a race, it's an ideology. White Muslims can be just as radical.



smile72 said:


> Nope we cannot because the reasons at least about why Japan has a  low crime is not related to that


So there would be no more terror attacks if there were 10mio Sunnies living in Japan as opposed to the current 60.000?
Is that what you're saying? 
Do you believe in logic?
 I don't mean this as in insult. I have actually read about a female professor who does not.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Ritsuki said:


> What do you mean by low ? 10% ? Less ? More ?
> 
> Well in a sense you're right, the less muslims there is, the less islam related crimes there will be, but that's a valid point for any group of people lol



Well it's obvious but many people would deny that. I think smile72 might be one of them.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

falconcrest said:


> Amen to that,amigo
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Someone with logic?! For shame!



Vipera said:


> Quran (2:191-193) - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah_ _is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah_ _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"_
> 
> _#religionofpeace #notallmuslims #yallwhitetrash_ #ireadthequranandthereisnothingaboutkillingpeople



Ah time to woop some ass. 

So lets discuss this shall we?

As you guys may have noticed in this verse of the quran  Vipera left out an untranslated word "fitnah" which literally means torture/persecution.
So to summarise:
The verse is (or more aptly was) calling muslims to fight those who would persecute them and try to kill their people. So you're telling me fighting aginst persecution is wrong? Good to know.


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## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Sorry for bringing this up again but I'm confused.
> Did you call me racist for implying that Japanese authorities monitor Muslims (a) or for implying that Islam has something to do with ISLAMIC/ISLAMIST terror attacks (b).
> If a: Then why do you seem to agree with me all of a sudden even though I took back that claim for lack of knowledge?
> If b: Islam is not a race, it's an ideology. White Muslims can be just as radical.
> ...


Again you bring up Japan...again we are a unique case I never called you a racist.. I said what you said was racist and that was that Japan is safe because they are not afraid to be called racists thats not true. We are safe due to a complex number of reasons. Not one of which is due to a lack of Muslims. All I can say is I dontt think there would be any difference in attacks even if we had a larger Muslim population although i do think 10,000,000 is quite exaggerated as that would make Japan almost 10 percent Muslim and again we arent even 3 percent of any religion except Shinto and Buddhism.Now can you drop it about Japan and if you wanna discuss about Muslims and large cities please talk about Singapore then, they are a beautiful city state and they are 15 percent Muslim. Move on.


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## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Ah time to woop some ass.
> 
> So lets discuss this shall we?
> 
> ...





> Shirk and kufr, as in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
> 
> “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allaah)” [al-Baqarah 2:193]
> 
> Ibn Katheer said: this means shirk (worshipping others besides Allaah).


Try again.

It's also ironic that the muslim guy wants to be violent towards others. Whatever you say dude, just don't blow up on me (heh).


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## Pacheko17 (Jun 4, 2017)

This is what happens when you keep bringing incompatible people in, EU...
Stop it already god dammit, innocent people are dying because of your bullshit cultural enrichment.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Try again.
> 
> It's also ironic that the muslim guy wants to be violent towards others. Whatever you say dude, just don't blow up on me (heh).



Thats an incorrect quote.
Here's what fitnah really means:
*Sahih International*: And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- îaram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

*Pickthall*: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

*Yusuf Ali*: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

*Shakir*: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

*Muhammad Sarwar*: Slay them wherever you may catch them and expel them from the place from which they expelled you. The sin of disbelief in God is greater than committing murder. Do not fight them in the vicinity of the Sacred Mosque in Mecca unless they start to fight. Then slay them for it is the recompense that the disbelievers deserve.

*Mohsin Khan*: And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

*Arberry*: And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; persecution is more grievous than slaying. But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then, if they fight you, slay them -- such is the recompense of unbelievers --

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=191
These are the most notable translations and they all use persecution.

Also notice the quran end the 3 lines with Az-Zalimun. This further strengthens my point as Az-Zalimun translates to:
the wrong-doers, az-zâlimûn,  who injure, who are unjust, who oppress, who wrong themselves

Edit: Thought I'd go into further detail just to bury your argument:

Notice all of them say:
"drive them out from whence they drove you out"

Does this not show clear evidence of retaliation?
Seeing as how it's calling muslims to fight those who fought them out of their homes.

They also say:
"and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you"

Which is literally saying, do not fight them unless they fight you. So I must thank you for proving to me that Islam calls for self defence just like any other self respecting ideology.



Pacheko17 said:


> This is what happens when you keep bringing incompatible people in, EU...
> Stop it already god dammit, innocent people are dying because of your bullshit cultural enrichment.



Erm, these guys weren't immigrants, it was homegrown terror actually, so maybe learn something before you start claiming crap like that?


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

I so wish religions would stop being a thing at all. I am so tired of hearing religious fights while there's so many things more important in our lives and the future of our planet than cults... and while so many of us DO NOT ACTUALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT RELIGION.
Damnit our populations are fighting against each other for spiritual bullshit.

And please, stop turning it into a Christian/Muslim/Jew war, there is nothing more idiotic than blaming a whole culture for the stupidity of extremists.
Christianity had its troubled times as well, a religion by its essence (can't be proven) serves as the perfect excuse to commit atrocities.

This isn't about Christians versus Muslims, this isn't about Western Countries versus Arab Countries, this is about sane people versus psychopaths.

EVERYTIME you segregate people you play the game of these psychopaths.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> I so wish religions would stop being a thing at all. I am so tired of hearing religious fights while there's so many things more important in our lives and the future of our planet than cults... and while so many of us DO NOT ACTUALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT RELIGION.
> Damnit our populations are fighting against each other for spiritual bullshit.
> 
> And please, stop turning it into a Christian/Muslim/Jew war, there is nothing more idiotic than blaming a whole culture for the stupidity of extremists.
> ...



Fixed that for you 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



theoldbucwild said:


> Well it really all started:
> 
> http://www.crf-usa.org/america-resp...rom-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html



I'd argue it started when Bush decided to invade Iraq which I think we can all agree, was a stupid decision.


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## theoldbucwild (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Fixed that for you
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


You are right, since that was a point I would've brought up


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

theoldbucwild said:


> You are right, since that was a point I would've brought up



Might as well ask you, what are your beliefs? Im a centrist.


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## theoldbucwild (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Might as well ask you, what are your beliefs? Im a centrist.


I tend to lean Republican/Conservative


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

theoldbucwild said:


> I tend to lean Republican/Conservative


Ah interesting. Usually, conservatives (that I've talked to) would try to defend bush's actions.


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## theoldbucwild (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Ah interesting. Usually, conservatives (that I've talked to) would try to defend bush's actions.


Yes, but I do believe he took important steps to lowering taxes.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

theoldbucwild said:


> Yes, but I do believe he took important steps to lowering taxes.


Oh, I'm not saying everything he did was wrong, but I think some of his actions that lead him to fight Iraq was just stupid.


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## mudassirul (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Quran (2:191-193) - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah_ _is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah_ _and worship is for Allah alone. *But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun"*_



If they cease, this is a verse on war not about killing innocent civilians!!!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



noragrets said:


> islam is the problem , ISIS are simply following/applying the quaran/muahamad teachings to the real world
> that's what the islamic state is all about



What do you really know about Islam and Muhammads teachings?


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 4, 2017)

This is becoming a weekly thing now and as if that wasn't bad enough, there's police who don't even carry guns so they're as pointless or even more than a regular citizen. On the off chance, a citizen might carry a weapon for self-defence so he/she could be more useful than a police officer and attempt to save his/her life from the attackers.

The mentality that carrying a weapon is harmful is downright retarded. When you strip the citizens out of protection you're allowing the criminals to do what they want with us.



Pacheko17 said:


> This is what happens when you keep bringing incompatible people in, EU...
> Stop it already god dammit, innocent people are dying because of your bullshit cultural enrichment.


The EU doesn't give a shit about the European continent or its people, they only focus on making $$$ out of it. Eastern-Europe is against EU's policies and they're living without terrorist attacks or "refugees" invading them.


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## MionissNio (Jun 4, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> This is becoming a weekly thing now and as if that wasn't bad enough, there's police who don't even carry guns so they're as pointless or even more than a regular citizen. On the off chance, a citizen might carry a weapon for self-defence so he/she could be more useful than a police officer and attempt to save his/her life from the attackers.
> 
> The mentality that carrying a weapon is harmful is downright retarded. When you strip the citizens out of protection you're allowing the criminals to do what they want with us.
> 
> ...


Agreed! Just two days ago I heard a bomb blast in Afghanistan killing 84. 

The best solution is to make fine glass out of the middle East or just let them be you know stop all trading and shit except India it's good.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> EVERYTIME you segregate people you play the game of these psychopaths.


And every time you protect the ideology you make things worse. H. Clinton and B.H. Obama didn't even say the word Islamic or Islam. Nor did Obama allow the people in his government to say/write it. It's the big elephant in the room destroying things and we are forced to look down and don't mention the elephant. And if we do we are elephantophobes.

It's much easier to justify child marriage, religious wars, sex slavery, killing for mockery, killing of apostates etc by looking at Islamic texts and the founder of the religion than it is to justify child abuse of Catholic priests or bombings of abortion clinics (in which 10 or so people died in history).
But for argument's sake let's assume that all religions are equally bad.

The biggest difference between Muslims and Christians is that the latter have relativized (put into perspective) their religion. It is only a tiny minority in the Muslim communities who is willing to actually kill and die for their faith. But their is a much larger percentage of people with scary world views that foster terrorism. I don't need to quote any studies, you can look them up yourself. If a migrant wants to attack somebody for insulting "his" prophet (or wants the government to punish the person), he has no place in a modern society, for instance. And no, his "prophet" is not more dear to him than his mother. If that's the case, he needs to go to a mental hospital. Religions are ideas and ideas can be criticized.
*By protecting the ideology, things are only going to get worse. Muslims don't need a reformation* (one could argue that Wahabism and the Salafist movement are already the reformation: going back to how the prophet and his companions lived), *they need the enlightenment/critical thinking. *
It is in fact racist to thing that Muslims can't handle enlightenment.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> And every time you protect the ideology you make things worse. H. Clinton and B.H. Obama didn't even say the word Islamic or Islam. Nor did Obama allow the people in his government to say/write it. It's the big elephant in the room destroying things and we are forced to look down and don't mention the elephant. And if we do we are elephantophobes.


The fuck are you talking about?
http://www.searchquotes.com/search/Obama_Islam/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...al-security-council-meeting-on-islamic-state/
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/...ch?q=obama+speeches+islam&PC=SMSM&FORM=MBDPSB

Edit: I guess you also think you're pretty edgy by using Obama's middle initial


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> This is becoming a weekly thing now and as if that wasn't bad enough, there's police who don't even carry guns so they're as pointless or even more than a regular citizen. On the off chance, a citizen might carry a weapon for self-defence so he/she could be more useful than a police officer and attempt to save his/her life from the attackers.
> 
> The mentality that carrying a weapon is harmful is downright retarded. When you strip the citizens out of protection you're allowing the criminals to do what they want with us.
> 
> ...



Please at least try to show a hint of knowledge, this was homegrown terror, funnily enough only one of the past attacks was done by an immigrant.
And to blame this all on syrian refugees is like blaming Jews for what Hitler did.



MionissNio said:


> Agreed! Just two days ago I heard a bomb blast in Afghanistan killing 84.
> 
> The best solution is to make fine glass out of the middle East or just let them be you know stop all trading and shit except India it's good.



And we muslims are called the violent ones... Funny how the people become the monsters they fear.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> And every time you protect the ideology you make things worse. H. Clinton and B.H. Obama didn't even say the word Islamic or Islam. Nor did Obama allow the people in his government to say/write it. It's the big elephant in the room destroying things and we are forced to look down and don't mention the elephant. And if we do we are elephantophobes.
> 
> It's much easier to justify child marriage, religious wars, sex slavery, killing for mockery, killing of apostates etc by looking at Islamic texts and the founder of the religion than it is to justify child abuse of Catholic priests or bombings of abortion clinics (in which 10 or so people died in history).
> But for argument's sake let's assume that all religions are equally bad.
> ...



I'd agree with you on most of your points but I'd like to discuss a few of them.

"And if we do we are elephantophobes"

I'm not sure if you're suggesting this but if you're saying Islamophobia doesn't exist at all then you must also accept that neither does anti-Semitism, racism, sexism, homophobia or xenophobia.
Now, are you willing to suggest there is no such thing as an irrational, hatred filled, fear of Islam?
Of course, it is completely rational to criticise a religion and I'll have you know that it is completely within the rights of non-Muslim to criticise Islam and for any Muslim to suggest otherwise, they've obviously learnt little about the past of Islamic society.



> In the early centuries of the Islamic Caliphate, the Islamic law allowed citizens to freely express their views, including criticism of Islam and religious authorities, without fear of persecution.[21][22][23] As such, there have been several notable critics and skeptics of Islam that arose from within the Islamic world itself. In tenth and eleventh-century Syria there lived a blind poet called Al-Ma'arri. He became well known for a poetry that was affected by a "pervasive pessimism." He labeled religions in general as "noxious weeds" and said that Islam does not have a monopoly on truth.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam#Medieval_Islamic_world

Citations:

 Boisard, Marcel A. (July 1980). "On the Probable Influence of Islam on Western Public and International Law". _International Journal of Middle East Studies_. *11* (4): 429–50. doi:10.1017/s0020743800054805.
 "Nahjul Balagha Part 1, The Sermons". _Al-Islam.org_.
 Ronald Bontekoe, Mariėtta Tigranovna Stepaniants (1997). _Justice and Democracy_. University of Hawaii Press. p. 251. ISBN 0-8248-1926-8.
" But their is a much larger percentage of people with scary world views that foster terrorism"

could you elaborate on this point?

 "*they need the enlightenment/critical thinking"
*
You might need to elaborate on this too seeing as how I don't quite get how you get from having terrorists to "all muslims need to think differently"
Of course I'm going to assume that you're assuming some Islamic rulings are actually true and not things that have been used by non-muslims for decades to try and make Islam something it is not.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The biggest difference between Muslims and Christians is that the latter have relativized (put into perspective) their religion. It is only a tiny minority in the Muslim communities who is willing to actually kill and die for their faith. But their is a much larger percentage of people with scary world views that foster terrorism. I don't need to quote any studies, you can look them up yourself. If a migrant wants to attack somebody for insulting "his" prophet (or wants the government to punish the person), he has no place in a modern society, for instance. And no, his "prophet" is not more dear to him than his mother. If that's the case, he needs to go to a mental hospital. Religions are ideas and ideas can be criticized.
> *By protecting the ideology, things are only going to get worse. Muslims don't need a reformation* (one could argue that Wahabism and the Salafist movement are already the reformation: going back to how the prophet and his companions lived), *they need the enlightenment/critical thinking. *
> It is in fact racist to thing that Muslims can't handle enlightenment.



Agreed with all of this. But that doesn't change the fact that segregating them like some people do in this thread and pretty much everywhere, does absolutely nothing good. Its a much more complex issue than that.

I am not saying we should not take preventive measures, i am not saying we should avoid even using the word Islam or saying that Islam right now is facing issues - this is a mistake to ignore it -, but its really important to not cut all the bridges. Even if only 10% of muslims are "compatible" with western societies, it's still 10% that you do not want to alienate, they're the educated people and they are the best armed to help their own people to become "compatible".

Also i'd to point out that as a kid, before all this shitstorm started with 9/11 and all I went to Tunisia, Maroco Egypt etc and the people there were overwhelmingly welcoming, extremely social, the kind of good hearts that is becoming hard to find in our countries. Yes I was a tourist, but there was no denying these people were genuinely good. It pisses me off to no end when ignorant people (not saying you are) who never truly met muslims judge them as a whole and call them terrorist and stuff. Fear and ignorance are a really bad couple.

I hate that religions are so powerful, i hate the damage it does to this world, but we must not fight the wrong enemies. Extremists are from every country and every religion. Today it's some muslims, yesterday it was christians, you don't know what it will be tomorrow.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The fuck are you talking about?
> http://www.searchquotes.com/search/Obama_Islam/
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...al-security-council-meeting-on-islamic-state/
> https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/...ch?q=obama+speeches+islam&PC=SMSM&FORM=MBDPSB
> ...



Glad you noticed it.
I meant he never said "Radical Islam" or Islamic/Islamist terror attack. Of course he used the word "Islam". But never in a negative way

From the 3rd link you posted: 
Obama: "And let me make a final point. For a while now, the main contribution of some of my friends on the other side of the aisle have made in the fight against ISIL is to criticize this administration and me for not using the phrase "radical Islam." That's the key, they tell us. We can't beat ISIL unless we call them radical Islamists. What exactly would using this label would accomplish?"

BTW from the first link you posted:
"I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear."
-> OH MY GOD! (I knew this quote but think about it for a moment... is that the job description of the president of the USA?!)


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Spoiler: Some dumb pic












So I've been seeing this picture making the rounds on social media. I can assure you it's full of shit as literally all of the attacks in Ireland are from the IRA and not ISIS.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 4, 2017)

MionissNio said:


> Agreed! Just two days ago I heard a bomb blast in Afghanistan killing 84.
> 
> The best solution is to make fine glass out of the middle East or just let them be you know stop all trading and shit except India it's good.



People just want to live a peaceful live, you know, having fun and then this happens. It needs to end.

Things will ultimately get worse before they get better. Western Europe will regrettably have to have a civil war because of the shit constantly happening.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> lease at least try to show a hint of knowledge, this was homegrown terror, funnily enough only one of the past attacks was done by an immigrant.


They're doing it in the name of Allah so despite being born in UK their parents were foreigners.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> And to blame this all on syrian refugees is like blaming Jews for what Hitler did.


You are so clueless. Syrian refugees? The so-called refugees aren't refugees neither Syrians, they're from the African continent and from other Middle-Eastern countries than actually Syria.

Here's actual, real Syrian people uniting together and not refugees but citizens in their beloved Syria:










And the so-called refugees...






You import said culture, you get that culture.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:
			
		

> So I've been seeing this picture making the rounds on social media. I can assure you it's full of shit as literally all of the attacks in Ireland are from the IRA and not ISIS.


Yep and it also fails to highlight that some of these attacks come from citizen of these countries.
The usual propaganda bullshit.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> You are such a stupid fucking racist. Its tiring dealing with you dumb fucking cunts who dont what they are talking about. AND BTW Im a cancer survivor so go fuck off. You are probably jealous because of how safe Japan is so you are trying to scare people using bullshit tactics....its tiring leave Japan alone all you can say is Fukushima Fukushima but its mostly contained. Our government is doing its best. Its safe. I've been to Fukushima which by the way the city of Fukushima is 80 miles from the nuclear power plant.



yes yes you keep saying im a racist but you have nothing to back it up. You are a racist.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 4, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> Yep and it also fails to highlight that some of these attacks come from citizen of these countries.
> The usual propaganda bullshit.


It's ISIS fighters born in these countries


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> It's ISIS fighters born in these countries


Yeah and so you won't fix it by building walls.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 4, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> Yeah and so you won't fix it by building walls.


Since they're ISIS fighters they can be kept off the country they're born as they're harmful, plus, they could also alternatively arrest them. Neither works. Both would be considered racists options.

Better to leave them out in the open killing people.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> People just want to live a peaceful live, you know, having fun and then this happens. It needs to end.
> 
> Things will ultimately get worse before they get better. Western Europe will regrettably have to have a civil war because of the shit constantly happening.
> 
> ...



So what if their parents are foreigners? If you go far back enough in time everyone's parents are foreigners. Humanity started in Africa after all.

Yeah, now you're just showing your ingorance.

Here are some other pictures:
http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4...NNNRsALSfl+OMxmMZ/sdMP0QLqM0+ImeeMxmMxI7Z/9k= http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4...NNNRsALSfl+OMxmMZ/sdMP0QLqM0+ImeeMxmMxI7Z/9k= http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4...NNNRsALSfl+OMxmMZ/sdMP0QLqM0+ImeeMxmMxI7Z/9k= 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 http://data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4...NNNRsALSfl+OMxmMZ/sdMP0QLqM0+ImeeMxmMxI7Z/9k=





Yeah, that doesnt look so happy to me.

Also, those pictures are complete bullshit. It would also seem you got both from the same guy on Twitter, I wouldnt consider that all that credible when these pictures are from some guy on the internet. I bet you cant even provide evidence that this is actually Syria.

So now I ask you to provide evidence for your bullshit claims.

Edit: I must thank you though, you've just shown me that your news is alt-right conspiracy theories:
https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/871030622889889792


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

Looks like religion is working out great for them /s


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Since they're ISIS fighters they can be kept off the country they're born as they're harmful, plus, they could also alternatively arrest them. Neither works. Both would be considered racists options.
> 
> Better to leave them out in the open killing people.



No. You can't deny a person a nationality. If their only nationality is french they can't be expelled. No matter what.
Besides. Yeah arrest them... but you gotta know who they are first. Many many attempts are already stopped but some go through sadly.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> So what if their parents are foreigners? If you go far back enough in time everyone's parents are foreigners. Humanity started in Africa after all.
> 
> Yeah, now you're just showing your ingorance.
> 
> ...



BS? Not really. You just prefer to ignore the reality and be pro-terrorism as by the looks of it.



mech said:


> Looks like religion is working out great for them /s



Europe needs to be more culturally enriched.


----------



## Joe88 (Jun 4, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> there's police who don't even carry guns so they're as pointless or even more than a regular citizen. On the off chance, a citizen might carry a weapon for self-defence so he/she could be more useful than a police officer and attempt to save his/her life from the attackers.


don't worry, UK police are highly trained to deal with these situations


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 4, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> don't worry, UK police are highly trained to deal with these situations


Fucking pointless police officers. They are a disgrace to themselves, to the career they're on and for the people.


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## rileysrjay (Jun 4, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> don't worry, UK police are highly trained to deal with these situations


Ever heard of a taser?


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 4, 2017)

rileysrjay said:


> Ever heard of a taser?


How dare you! That would hurt the... students.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> BS? Not really. You just prefer to ignore the reality and be pro-terrorism as by the looks of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Europe needs to be more culturally enriched.



You can claim whatever. It's obvious you would rather believe in fiction rather than fact.
And how am I pro-terrorism? But sure, that's easily believable when you would rather delusion yourself than accept being wrong.


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## Pacheko17 (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Thats an incorrect quote.
> Here's what fitnah really means:
> *Sahih International*: And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- îaram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
> 
> ...



Still islamic terrorism.
If the immigrants never came in, that wouldn't have happened. They are importing this ideology. 

Or are you going to defend Islam and call it a religion of peace?


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## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> Still islamic terrorism.
> If the immigrants never came in, that wouldn't have happened. They are importing this ideology.
> 
> Or are you going to defend Islam and call it a religion of peace?



No. Many of these terrorists are not refugees/migrants but are instead born in the country.
How many times does it have to be said... this issue is more complex than just closing the borders getting guns and everything will be fine.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Pacheko17 said:


> Still islamic terrorism.
> If the immigrants never came in, that wouldn't have happened. They are importing this ideology.
> 
> Or are you going to defend Islam and call it a religion of peace?



I'm not saying it's not.
How the hell do you come to that conclusion? You lack so much knowledge that I just feel sorry for you. Ever heard of the internet? Ideology need not be imported physically just read on the internet, that's easily enough to delusion somebody. Just look at @saiyan Luistano. This is the same guy that got salty because he's a flag worshipper.


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## DrayanoX (Jun 4, 2017)

The problem isn't Islam, it's ISIS. And no, ISIS isn't Islam, they pretend to be but they aren't.
If governments really wanted to stop ISIS, then they should just stop buying their cheap oil and selling them weapons.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> I'm not sure if you're suggesting this but if you're saying Islamophobia doesn't exist at all then you must also accept that neither does anti-Semitism, racism, sexism, homophobia or xenophobia.


I'm afraid I have been called all of these despite none of them being true. lol
Name-calling is the easiest way of shutting somebody up without confronting his/her arguments.
There is genuine racism and xenophobia (I have experienced it personally and it hurts!) but by overusing these terms, they lose all of their meaning.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Now, are you willing to suggest there is no such thing as an irrational, hatred filled, fear of Islam?


I would have been killed for what I'm writing in sharia-governed countries. So yes, I fear Islam and this fear is not irrational. Neither can I openly say these things without the likelihood of being attacked in my own country (with a Muslim minority). Just look up the Egyptian (and former Muslim Brotherhood member) Hamed Abdel-Samad. He is under constant police protection in Germany.




TheDarkGreninja said:


> Of course, it is completely rational to criticise a religion and I'll have you know that it is completely within the rights of non-Muslim to criticise Islam and for any Muslim to suggest otherwise, they've obviously learnt little about the past of Islamic society.


There have been times of moderate Islamic rulers like e.g. in Bagdad (including drinking alcohol etc) but when push comes to shove Muhammad and his companions always trump any other Islamic government. I'm thankful for your view, but would you honestly dare to say these things in majority-Mulim countries? I mean lecturing them about it. You would be afraid of being called an apostate or hypocrite.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> "*they need the enlightenment/critical thinking"*
> You might need to elaborate on this too seeing as how I don't quite get how you get from having terrorists to "all muslims need to think differently"


It's a mindset in a large part of the Islamic world. Look at historical research... people are afraid to even touch the subject. Not only did the Muslim world not have Feuerbach and Voltaire but there is also the fact that many Muslims take criticism of Islam personally. It's not surprising, seeing how "Islam" is submission (and the Quran says you can't have real faith until you fully submit to Muhammad and his decisions). Religion should not have political power over people.

............. .......... ............... .......... ............... .......... ...............


deinonychus71 said:


> Agreed with all of this. But that doesn't change the fact that segregating them like some people do in this thread and pretty much everywhere, does absolutely nothing good.


Are you saying that if we were to openly blame Islam (instead of protecting it from criticism) for the problem of terror attacks, then more and more Muslims will join ISIS or blow themselves up?


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Are you saying that if we were to openly blame Islam (instead of protecting it from criticism) for the problem of terror attacks, then more and more Muslims will join ISIS or blow themselves up?


Instead of straight up blaming Islam, which does absolutely nothing but create tensions with people who were actually okay with us, we have to include them as part of the solution against ISIS, again these X % of "compatible" muslims are our best allies again islamism and we need to work with them.


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## death360 (Jun 4, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> don't worry, UK police are highly trained to deal with these situations



Wow wtf is that real I doubt that would happen in the u.s. it be more like shoot first ask questions later.


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

death360 said:


> Wow wtf is that real I doubt that would happen in the u.s. it be more like shoot first ask questions later.



We need some US police over here in the UK.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Firstly, I'd like to thank you for being one of the few people on this thread who is respectful enough and calm enough to debate your points.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I'm afraid I have been called all of these despite non of them being true. lol
> Name-calling is the easiest way of shutting somebody up without confronting his/her arguments.
> There is genuine racism and xenophobia (I have experienced it personally and it hurts!) but by overusing these terms, they lose all of their meaning.



I agree.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I would have been killed for what I'm writing in sharia-governed countries. So yes, I fear Islam and this fear is not irrational. Neither can I openly say these things without the likelihood of being attacked in my own country (with a Muslim minority). Just look up the Egyptian (and former Muslim Brotherhood member) Hamed Abdel-Samad. He is under constant police protection in Germany.



And that's an issue with these countries that do not correctly follow the teachings they follow so dearly. I urge you not to conflate muslim countries and muslims with the religion as that will always lead to bigotry.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> There have been times of moderate Islamic rulers like e.g. in Bagdad (including drinking alcohol etc) but when push comes to shove Muhammad and his companions always trump any other Islamic government. I'm thankful for your view, but would you honestly dare to say these things in majority-Mulim countries? I mean lecturing them about it. You would be afraid of being called an apostate or hypocrite.



It is not I who is in the wrong for having this view. Seeing as how it is completely within Islamic law to allow for criticism of Islam.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It's a mindset in a large part of the Islamic world. Look at historical research... people are afraid to even touch the subject. Not only did the Muslim world not have Feuerbach and Voltaire but there is also the fact that many Muslims take criticism of Islam personally. It's not surprising, seeing how "Islam" is submission (and the Quran says you can't have real faith until you fully submit to Muhammad and his decisions). Religion should not have political power over people.



To an extent, I agree with you. But, a lot of the time's that I've seen muslim people choose not to question their religion it is more to do with cultural factors rather than religion. for example, in south-east Asia children are expected not to question their parents and in a lot of cases that leads them to not questioning faith.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mech said:


> We need some US police over here in the UK.



I didn't know people on the temp were so violent.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

DrayanoX said:


> The problem isn't Islam, it's ISIS. And no, ISIS isn't Islam, they pretend to be but they aren't.


Who are you to say that they are not Islamic?
You are not the judge here. They would say the same about you.
Unlike being male or female you can actually "decide" to be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc.
Islam is not your based on your opinion but on the Quran and Muhammad.



DrayanoX said:


> If governments really wanted to stop ISIS, then they should just stop buying their cheap oil and selling them weapons.


Agreed. Many western governments are part of the problem, not the solution. And of course Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.[/QUOTE]


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Islam is not your based on your opinion but on the Quran and Muhammad.



And if they do not follow it's teachings? Are they not then Non-Muslims?


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> It is not I who is in the wrong for having this view. Seeing as how it is completely within Islamic law to allow for criticism of Islam.


As far as I know all 4 schools of Sunni schools agree that apostates should be killed (1 of them says female apostates should instead be imprisoned). How does that allow for criticism? Are you not Sunni?


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## Abu_Senpai (Jun 4, 2017)

This video made me laugh. 

So this guy from liverpool just uploaded a video on the NET. He showed us his sword and begun threatening to blow up mosques with grenades and chopping up Muslims.

This is what terrorism/ISIS breeds....

I wonder how long before many others over here in the U.K begin doing the same and actually acting upon their words. Not everyone is as resilient to the atrocities that terrorism breeds.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> And if they do not follow it's teachings? Are they not then Non-Muslims?


Muhammad said apostates should be killed. Do you or does ISIS follow Muhammad on this more closely?
The Quran speaks of women "your right hand possesses" (i.e. women you capture in battle and have sex with; besides your regular wife/wives). Do you or does ISIS follow the Quran more closely?

I could continue but you do get my point. Are you Achmadiyya by any chance?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> As far as I know all 4 schools of Sunni schools agree that apostates should be killed (1 of them says female apostates should instead be imprisoned). How does that allow for criticism? Are you not Sunni?





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> As far as I know all 4 schools of Sunni schools agree that apostates should be killed (1 of them says female apostates should instead be imprisoned). How does that allow for criticism? Are you not Sunni?



Apostasy is leaving one's religion. A muslim does not become an apostate by questioning their religion. they do if they outright criticise it.

Also, I should've been more clearer, it is considered completely legal under Islamic law for a non-Muslim specifically to criticise Islam or any other religion.


----------



## DrayanoX (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Who are you to say that they are not Islamic?
> You are not the judge here. They would say the same about you.
> Unlike being male or female you can actually "decide" to be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist etc.
> Islam is not your based on your opinion but on the Quran and Muhammad.


I'm Muslim myself and I know well the Islam and what it teaches us, and to be honest, I don't care what you believe in and what you do with your life, we should just live in peace regardless of our religion, ideology or nationality. However, what I can't tolerate is people spamming hatred towards ALL the muslims or towards the Islam because of a minority of people that aren't even true muslims.
It's clearly stated in the Quran that killing a single soul is like killing all the humanity, Muhammad also that everyone has his religion and is free to practise it in his country. 
The sourates of the Quran that talks about killing people were in a context of war, and western countries didn't declared war to us, so committing terrorists attacks is condemned by Islam. 
ISIS just use the Islam as a vector to brainwash people's head because it's easy to misinterpret the Quran.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Muhammad said apostates should be killed. Do you or does ISIS follow Muhammad on this more closely?
> The Quran speaks of women "your right hand possesses" (i.e. women you capture in battle and have sex with; besides your regular wife/wives). Do you or does ISIS follow the Quran more closely?
> 
> I could continue but you do get my point. Are you Achmadiyya by any chance?



The quran also says that freeing slaves is a virtuous act. Who follows that more closely the one who obtains slaves or the one who has none at all?

No, I am not an Ahmadiyya.

edit: I'll be off for a bit so keep quoting me on a minimum, thanks.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

DrayanoX said:


> I'm Muslim myself and I know well the Islam and what it teaches us, and to be honest, I don't care what you believe in and what you do with your life, we should just live in peace regardless of our religion, ideology or nationality. However, what I can't tolerate is people spamming hatred towards ALL the muslims or towards the Islam because of a minority of people that aren't even true muslims.
> It's clearly stated in the Quran that killing a single soul is like killing all the humanity, Muhammad also that everyone has his religion and is free to practise it in his country.
> The sourates of the Quran that talks about killing people were in a context of war, and western countries didn't declared war to us, so committing terrorists attacks is condemned by Islam.
> ISIS just use the Islam as a vector to brainwash people's head because it's easy to misinterpret the Quran.




Then why not put some of that to use on these so called 'fake muslims' and stop them dirtying your religion/name?


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> The quran also says that freeing slaves is a virtuous act. Who follows that more closely the one who obtains slaves or the one who has none at all?


ISIS, actually. You can only free slaves if you have slaves.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> edit: I'll be off for a bit so keep quoting me on a minimum, thanks.


Actually I need to do other things as well. Don't take it personally. Thanks for being polite.


----------



## DrayanoX (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Then what not put some of that to use on these so called 'fake muslims' and stop them dirtying your religion/name?


Sadly I don't think I can stop a whole terrorist organization by myself, I would if I could.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

DrayanoX said:


> Sadly I don't think I can stop a whole terrorist organization by myself, I would if I could.



Your religion has a large enough following, can we not call on you for help? Surely its in yours interest?


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Jun 4, 2017)

*London attack: 12 arrested in Barking after van and knife attack*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40148737

Looks like they *DID *have a network


----------



## DrayanoX (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Your religion has a large enough following, can we not call on you for help? Surely its in yours interest?


Sorry, I don't get what you are trying to insinuate by this, maybe if you elaborated a bit?


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> don't worry, UK police are highly trained to deal with these situations


I can't help but feel this is the result of decades of criticism towards police brutality. I'm all for human rights, but if a man with a knife charges to a police officer they should be shot. Period. If they showed no restraint towards a police officer then imagine what they would do to civilians.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DrayanoX said:


> Sorry, I don't get what you are trying to insinuate by this, maybe if you elaborated a bit?


If I were to be part of a religious community I would denounce any suspicious activity I see to the police. I think that's what he meant by that.


----------



## barak06 (Jun 4, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> No. Many of these terrorists are not refugees/migrants but are instead born in the country.
> How many times does it have to be said... this issue is more complex than just closing the borders getting guns and everything will be fine.


They are not refugees but 2nd or 3rd generation of migrant. And they are muslim brothers before english or french... so there is no solution, it's too late Like in France where we have 8millions of them (african mostly from maghreb). It's a silent invasion where we will be submerged by the Number...


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 4, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> This video made me laugh.
> 
> So this guy from liverpool just uploaded a video on the NET. He showed us his sword and begun threatening to blow up mosques with grenades and chopping up Muslims.
> 
> ...





barak06 said:


> They are not refugees but 2nd or 3rd generation of migrant. And they are muslim brothers before english or french... so there is no solution, it's too late Like in France where we have 8millions of them (african mostly from maghreb). It's a silent invasion where we will be submerged by the Number...



I used to live in France, working in IT with lots of muslims people and never had any problem. Quite on the contrary.

Thats the problem right there. Its really hard to id the extremists and people are starting to ask for witch hunts... nothing good ever came out of that.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> I can't help but feel this is the result of decades of criticism towards police brutality. I'm all for human rights, but if a man with a knife charges to a police officer they should be shot. Period. If they showed no restraint towards a police officer then imagine what they would do to civilians.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Well the manchester attacker was literally called out by people in his mosque and they contacted the police about his extremism. The police did nothing. 
We don't know enough about the London attackers yet. 

Also aren't you going to reply to my debunking of your claim, or are you just going to leave it with that? To be honest, I'd be fine with that.


----------



## barak06 (Jun 4, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> I used to live in France, working in IT with lots of muslims people and never had any problem. Quite on the contrary.
> 
> Thats the problem right there. Its really hard to id the extremists and people are starting to ask for witch hunts... nothing good ever came out of that.



Ok firstly you seems like a dinosaur to me !
More seriously you said you worked but most of them don't work ! You've seen the exceptions. Not representative ! In France you can live quiet well with social wellfare. And also the more children you've got the more money and the more free services you get ! Far away from US. And we can id the terrorists : muslims ! No boudhists, jews, or catholics ! May be some converted from the last one searching their path.... lol (i don't feel like to laugh however)


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Also aren't you going to reply to my debunking of your claim, or are you just going to leave it with that? To be honest, I'd be fine with that.


I'd rather not engage in any discussion with a Muslims that writes to "whoop some ass" C:


----------



## smf (Jun 4, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> *London attack: 12 arrested in Barking after van and knife attack*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40148737
> 
> Looks like they *DID *have a network



They automatically arrest friends and family members after a terror attack. Just because there are arrests, doesn't mean that there was a network. We need to wait until they are charged or released (although even then that doesn't conclusively tell you anything).



Vipera said:


> I'm all for human rights, but if a man with a knife charges to a police officer they should be shot. Period.



That would certainly end knife crime as the criminals would need to carry guns to defend themselves. I certainly wouldn't want to see policing in the UK follow the US.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

There is always a network, they have to get brainwashed by someone.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Glad you noticed it.
> I meant he never said "Radical Islam" or Islamic/Islamist terror attack. Of course he used the word "Islam". But never in a negative way
> 
> From the 3rd link you posted:
> ...


'Part of this conviction is rooted in my own experience. I am a Christian, but my father came from a Kenyan family that includes generations of Muslims. As a boy, I spent several years in Indonesia and heard the call of the _azaan_ at the break of dawn and the fall of dusk. As a young man, I worked in Chicago communities where many found dignity and peace in their Muslim faith.

As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam — at places like Al-Azhar University — that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality.

I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers — Thomas Jefferson — kept in his personal library.

So I have known Islam on three continents before coming to the region where it was first revealed. That experience guides my conviction that partnership between America and Islam must be based on what Islam is, not what it isn't. And I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.

But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words — within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: _E pluribus unum_: "Out of many, one."'


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> I'd rather not engage in any discussion with a Muslims that writes to "whoop some ass" C:



Ah sure, ignorance is bliss.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Then why not put some of that to use on these so called 'fake muslims' and stop them dirtying your religion/name?


You do realize that the Manchester bomber was reported by his friends and banned from the Mosque he attended long before he blew himself to bits? The system failed them, it wasn't for lack of trying


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You do realize that the Manchester bomber was reported by his friends and banned from the Mosque he attended long before he blew himself to bits? The system failed them, it wasn't for lack of trying



Good on them, lets hope this is the way forwards across the country.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Good on them, lets hope this is the way forwards across the country.


That's how it tends to be, it's just that it isn't the exciting version to report


----------



## Clydefrosch (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> I can't help but feel this is the result of decades of criticism towards police brutality. I'm all for human rights, but if a man with a knife charges to a police officer they should be shot. Period. If they showed no restraint towards a police officer then imagine what they would do to civilians.


are you stupid? its the result of actually wanting these people taken alive.

because as long as 99% of these guys end up dead before being questioned, we will never get first hand explanations of how they came to chose to go down this road, meaning we will never get to eradicate the root cause of this.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

Clydefrosch said:


> are you stupid? its the result of actually wanting these people taken alive.
> 
> because as long as 99% of these guys end up dead before being questioned, we will never get first hand explanations of how they came to chose to go down this road, meaning we will never get to eradicate the root cause of this.




We could live with that approach if they were given more then just a slap on the wrist for what they had done.


----------



## Clydefrosch (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> We could live with that approach if they were given more then just a slap on the wrist for what they had done.



wtf are you trying to say here?
do you believe if they hadn't been shot dead, they'd have gotten like, social hours?


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

Clydefrosch said:


> wtf are you trying to say here?
> do you believe if they hadn't been shot dead, they'd have gotten like, social hours?



They get let off easy.


----------



## Clydefrosch (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> They get let off easy.


are you literally crazy to believe that?


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

Clydefrosch said:


> are you literally crazy to believe that?



stop being a racist.


----------



## Deleted User (Jun 4, 2017)

smf said:


> They automatically arrest friends and family members after a terror attack. Just because there are arrests, doesn't mean that there was a network. We need to wait until they are charged or released (although even then that doesn't conclusively tell you anything).
> 
> 
> 
> That would certainly end knife crime as the criminals would need to carry guns to defend themselves. I certainly wouldn't want to see policing in the UK follow the US.


Family and friends of terrorists should be executed on the spot, innocent or not.

If terrorists knew their familes will die along with them, maybe they'd think twice before bombing children or stabbing random people on the streets.

Time is coming very soon where no one will care, and people will just gather up together and start killing muslims on their own, with or without their governments backing.

Edit: Inb4 racist, nazi, whatever. Time they start getting punished for their crimes.


----------



## Blood Fetish (Jun 4, 2017)

StarGazerTom said:


> Family and friends of terrorists should be executed on the spot, innocent or not.


lol


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

DrayanoX said:


> I'm Muslim myself and I know well the Islam and what it teaches us, and to be honest, I don't care what you believe in and what you do with your life, we should just live in peace regardless of our religion


That's exactly what the Quran/Muhammad said... when he didn't have an army.
Could it be that religions are tolerant when being powerless and intolerant when being powerful? 



DrayanoX said:


> However, what I can't tolerate is people spamming hatred towards ALL the muslims or towards the Islam because of a minority of people that aren't even true muslims.


Is what I wrote hatred?
I don't hate Muslims but I do hate Islam (at least the law-related aspect of it).
So what does it mean you don't tolerate me? Would I be punished by you? Would you watch me being punished by a Muslim state or a Muslim Mob? 
Please clarify "not tolerating".



DrayanoX said:


> It's clearly stated in the Quran that killing a single soul is like killing all the humanity


That's what Allah said to the children of Israel. It does not include souls who have killed other souls (death penalty) nor those who commit mischief in the land (am I doing that?). This verse originated in the Talmud. Did Allah use human sources for the Quran? 
The next verse (5:33) tells Muslims what do to with those who fight against Allah and Muhammad: execution, exile, torture.
Am I fighting against Allah by saying these things?
Are foreign soldiers (e.g. Americans) fighting against Allah and Muhammad? E.g. in Afghanistan against the Taliban.



DrayanoX said:


> Muhammad also that everyone has his religion and is free to practise it in his country.


Are you referring to the Quran or a Hadith? If the latter, could you please give me a reference. Only if you can find it without looking for to long. Thank you.



DrayanoX said:


> The sourates of the Quran that talks about killing people were in a context of war, and western countries didn't declared war to us, so committing terrorists attacks is condemned by Islam.


Neither did the Byzantine empire declare war on the Muslims and yet the Quran says the people of the book need to be fought until they submit (9:29).
Are you saying Islam conquered "half the world" by defending itself?
Please explain this verse to me as it was revealed at the end of Muhammad's life by which he had already conquered Arabia.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

StarGazerTom said:


> Family and friends of terrorists should be executed on the spot, innocent or not.
> 
> If terrorists knew their familes will die along with them, maybe they'd think twice before bombing children or stabbing random people on the streets.
> 
> ...



Is it ok if I call this guy a sociopath? 
After all a sociopath is:
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That's exactly what the Quran/Muhammad said... when he didn't have an army.
> Could it be that religions are tolerant when being powerless and intolerant when being powerful?


And how was Muhammed intolerant when he had an army?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I do hate Islam (at least the law-related aspect of it).



Exactly which one of these laws is intolerant to a certain view?
Homosexuality isnt a viewpoint, and before I get attacked with comments such as "You get killed if you're gay."
You might want to read up on it, you only get killed/lashed if you do it in public, as in there needs to be at least 4 witnesses to your crime.
As such if you do homosexual acts in private you can never be killed for it as that is your private life and Islam put's privacy before law. That's why sharia only has jurisdiction over public space.
I've also debunked the claim that islamic law doesnt allow for criticism of Islam.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Am I fighting against Allah by saying these things?



What exactly are you trying to say?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Are you referring to the Quran or a Hadith? If the latter, could you please give me a reference. Only if you can find it without looking for to long. Thank you.



Pretty easy actually:
“There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> stop being a racist.



How is Islam a race? It's a religion. Arabic people are primarily Islamic/Muslim, yes, but Arab is a race, there's a difference.  The term you're seeking is Islamophobia.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 4, 2017)

StarGazerTom said:


> Family and friends of terrorists should be executed on the spot, innocent or not.
> 
> If terrorists knew their familes will die along with them, maybe they'd think twice before bombing children or stabbing random people on the streets.
> 
> ...


WHAT

THE

FUCK


----------



## spotanjo3 (Jun 4, 2017)

Very sad.. indeed! 
More attack will continue in the future. No peace and no way to stop it at all. It is only getting worse as long as corruption people are still exist, no matter what.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 4, 2017)

StarGazerTom said:


> Family and friends of terrorists should be executed on the spot, innocent or not.
> 
> If terrorists knew their familes will die along with them, maybe they'd think twice before bombing children or stabbing random people on the streets.
> 
> ...



With that kind of attitude, you're part of the problem. Face it, you're drunk, look at what you're saying, take a freakin' chill pill and don't come up with such a half-assed sick-minded idea like that.  Good day.

Punish the terrorists, not the families; they have no part in the others' actions. Sheesh.


----------



## Lord M (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Thank God I don't live in Italy anymore otherwise people would group me up with people like you guys.


Thank No One i dont live in Poland.
Other than read ignorant comments like this, i also see Poland people stealing italian jobs.
Other than write foolish thing and steal others jobs, you can do something else?


----------



## WeedZ (Jun 4, 2017)

StarGazerTom said:


> Family and friends of terrorists should be executed on the spot, innocent or not.
> 
> If terrorists knew their familes will die along with them, maybe they'd think twice before bombing children or stabbing random people on the streets.
> 
> ...


That's terrorism


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

the_randomizer said:


> How is Islam a race? It's a religion. Arabic people are primarily Islamic/Muslim, yes, but Arab is a race, there's a difference.  The term you're seeking is Islamophobia.



it was sarcasm which was carried over from posts further back, some douche was calling everyone a racist for no logical reason.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> it was sarcasm which was carried over from posts further back, some douche was calling everyone a racist for no logical reason.


Not like there was much logic in this thread, to begin with.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Is it ok if I call this guy a sociopath?
> After all a sociopath is:
> a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behaviour.


Yes, we can. But I would argue terrorists wouldn't get themselves killed if they didn't expect a reward. Those who actually fight are exhalted in the Quran. You can only argue about what a legitimate target is.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> And how was Muhammed intolerant when he had an army?


Radical peacefulness became defensive war and finally led to offensive war (s. Sura 9, even against the "people of the book").



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Exactly which one of these laws is intolerant to a certain view?


I don't like the word tolerance. I'm in favor of equality. If there is a party which is tolerant, it is implied that the party has the power to destroy or prohibit other opinions. The killing of apostates is despicable beyond words. Not only is it done by the state but many traditional Muslim families feel it is their duty to kill their apostate son/daughter. Just look the stories of people who have left Islam and had to flee.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> What exactly are you trying to say?


Fighting somebody does not have to be in a literal sense (with a sword). There are different forms of Jihad.
Therefore there can be different way of fighting Allah and Muhammad. E.g. if I was living in a land which was conquered by Muslims (as a Dhimmi) I would not be allowed to write poetry against Muhammad. Muhammad himself ordered the murder of people who did that. Therefore it is difficult to condemn people for things the founder of a religion did himself.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Pretty easy actually:
> “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)


I had this in mind as well (+to you be your religion and to me be mine). But I thought DrayanoX may have meant a hadith (I asked because I don't remember one mentioning a "home country").


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You can only argue about what a legitimate target is.


And innocent people are never considered legitimate targets.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> offensive war (s. Sura 9, even against the "people of the book")



Nope never an offensive war:
9:13 *Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger*, *and they had begun the attack upon you the first time?* Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The killing of apostates is despicable beyond words.



If someone leaves Islam and keeps it to themselves they can't be killed. It's when they try to make others convert which is when they've crossed a line. Often, in the past, they'd be exiled rather than killed.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I would not be allowed to write poetry against Muhammad. Muhammad himself ordered the murder of people who did that.



I'm going to need evidence for that claim as I had provided evidence earlier to the contrary.


----------



## AsPika2219 (Jun 4, 2017)

Look likes TOO MANY ATTACKS in entire worlds on this Ramadan...


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 4, 2017)

Reminder that "Jihad" is not a fight with someone else


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Lord M said:


> Thank No One i dont live in Poland.
> Other than read ignorant comments like this, i also see Poland people stealing italian jobs.
> Other than write foolish thing and steal others jobs, you can do something else?


I'm Italian you dumbass.


----------



## Lord M (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> I'm Italian you dumbass.


And according to you how can i know this by seeing your Poland flag?
ok you go to live in Poland, but no clue to make think you are italian, genius.
Anyway that explain everything... LOL
You can thank God even for world's terrorism, you brain-dead.


----------



## Vipera (Jun 4, 2017)

Lord M said:


> And according to you how can i know this by seeing your Poland flag?
> ok you go to live in Poland, but no clue to make think you are italian, genius.
> Anyway that explain everything... LOL
> You can thank God even for world's terrorism, you brain-dead.


I was born in Italy and I moved in Poland. Is it so hard to understand?
It's still better than being associated with people like you. Go watch your youtube videos about subliminal messages and masonry now


----------



## HtheB (Jun 4, 2017)




----------



## Lord M (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> I was born in Italy and I moved in Poland. Is it so hard to understand?
> It's still better than being associated with people like you. Go watch your youtube videos about subliminal messages and masonry now


Wow, so ignorant. No offence, but so ignorant 
Ok i accept your advice, and you go to live in your idyllic imaginary world not ruled by pharmaceutical business and politics war games -.-
Even Alice woke up from her dream, why so hard for you?
You can go to pray your God (of War) to stop terrorism and i will wait to see what happen.
So you really think that some strange bad things happen because they have to happen? I think you need to buy a brain. Even a child can do 2+2.
People like you took 10 years to understand how fake was the attack to Twin Towers. You need 10 years to understand this? too slow. Thanks to people like you the world will never change better.


----------



## Lord M (Jun 4, 2017)

Vipera said:


> I was born in Italy and I moved in Poland. Is it so hard to understand?
> It's still better than being associated with people like you. Go watch your youtube videos about subliminal messages and masonry now


Wow, so ignorant. No offence, but so ignorant 
Ok i accept your advice, and you go to live in your idyllic imaginary world not ruled by pharmaceutical business and politics war games -.-
Even Alice woke up from her dream, why so hard for you?
You can go to pray your God (of War) to stop terrorism and i will wait to see what happen.
So you really think that some strange bad things happen because they have to happen? I think you need to buy a brain. Even a child can do 2+2.
People like you took 10 years to understand how fake was the attack to Twin Towers. You need 10 years to understand this? too slow. Thanks to people like you the world will never change better.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> And innocent people are never considered legitimate targets.


True, but the definition of innocent varies greatly. According to the Quran, those who disbelieve are the worst of creatures. How can I be worse than a rat or an ant? Only due to my lack of believe. Christians think similarly but there the bad treatment is reserved for the afterlife (Jesus didn't have political power).



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Nope never an offensive war:
> 9:13 *Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger*, *and they had begun the attack upon you the first time?* Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.


Sorry, I don't have time to look into it but I believe 9:13 still talks about the polytheists. The Byzantine Empire has never broken any oaths. They were fighting the non-Muslim Persians for hundreds of years. Apparently they were invited to become Muslims but refused. 9:29 is a call for offensive warfare and 9:30 is the justification for it. It is about belief, not about having done anything to them.
Arabia united under Muhammad and the following Kaliphs swept through the Middle East, North Africa, parts of Europe and India. That doesn't sound like defensive wars to me, does it? It's like saying Hitler defended himself.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> If someone leaves Islam and keeps it to themselves they can't be killed. It's when they try to make others convert which is when they've crossed a line. Often, in the past, they'd be exiled rather than killed.


Therefore society can never change. If I can't even tell my family members.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> I'm going to need evidence for that claim as I had provided evidence earlier to the contrary.


Well, it didn't mention Muhammad way of dealing with things.

Read the end of p.314 and the beginning of p.315:
A man killed his wife for insulting Muhammad. The case was brought before Muhammad and he decided not to punish him. Below it is another Sahih narration of a man killing a Jewish woman. Same pattern.
I believe this pretty much mirrors the widely accepted attitude of Muslims regarding Charlie Hebdo. Even many so-called moderate Muslims think it was just for the mockers to be killed.
https://books.google.de/books?id=Pph5DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA314&lpg=PA314&dq="I+adjure+by+Allah+the+man+who+has+done+this+action"&source=bl&ots=axqbsNHcjD&sig=rtibDS5ky-o5oYUzWQN3XvaPxrE&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIha_AiKXUAhULWywKHbRODKsQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> yes yes you keep saying im a racist but you have nothing to back it up. You are a racist.


I italicized what I needed to prove you wrong. I'm not a racist. That much I can say. You have just ignorant and outdated information. Now moving on. I'm done with this. You have proven nothing except you are paranoid.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> I italicized what I needed to prove you wrong. _I'm not a racist_. That much I can say. You have just ignorant and outdated information. Now moving on. I'm done with this. You have proven nothing except you are paranoid.



I have also _italicized _where you prove to be a racist.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> True, but the definition of innocent varies greatly. According to the Quran, those who disbelieve are the worst of creatures. How can I be worse than a rat or an ant? Only due to my lack of believe.



the verse that says that (98:6) doesnt say that these people are not innocent, merely wrongdoers. 



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The Byzantine Empire has never broken any oaths. They were fighting the non-Muslim Persians for hundreds of years. Apparently they were invited to become Muslims but refused. 9:29 is a call for offensive warfare and 9:30 is the justification for it. It is about belief, not about having done anything to them.



9:29 has to do with the Tabuk expedition. Here's a hadith on it:
“I never remained behind Allah’s Messenger from any expedition which he undertook except the Battle of Tabuk and that of the Battle of Badr. So far as the Battle of Badr is concerned, nobody was blamed for remaining behind as Allah’s Messenger and the Muslims (did not set out for attack but for waylaying) the caravan of the Quraish, but it was Allah Who made them confront their enemies without their intention (to do so). I had the honour to be with Allah’s Messenger on the night of ‘Aqaba when we pledged our allegiance to Islam and it was more dear to me than my participation in the Battle of Badr, although Badr was more popular amongst people as compared with that (Tabuk). And this is my story of remaining back from Allah’s Messenger on the occasion of the Battle of *TABUK*. Never did I possess means enough and (my circumstances) more favourable than at the occasion of this expedition. And, by Allah, I had never before this expedition simultaneously in my possession two rides. Allah’s Messenger set out for this expedition in extremely hot season; the journey was long and the land (which he and his army had to cover) was waterless and *HE HAD TO CONFRONT A LARGE ARMY*, so he informed the Muslims about the actual situation (they had to face), so that they should adequately equip themselves for this expedition, and he also told them the destination where he intended to go. …” (_Sahih Muslim Book 37, Hadith 6670_)

Notice the fact that they were already there. It would suggest it was they who had started it. 




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Therefore society can never change. If I can't even tell my family members.



I should've been clearer, you can tell your parents your lack of faith, but they can't ever lay a hand on you unless you publicly announce it.
If you have valid criticism you can discuss it with an imam and have that criticism resolved.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Read the end of p.314 and the beginning of p.315:
> A man killed his wife for insulting Muhammad. The case was brought before Muhammad and he decided not to punish him.
> I believe this pretty much mirrors the widely accepted attitude of Muslims regarding Charlie Hebdo. Even many so-called moderate Muslims think it was just for the mockers to be killed.



It was not his wife it was a slave. The issue with this is that she was killed for doing it continuously without pause.
He chose to kill her after giving ample warning to stop and by disregarding and slandering Islam she was killed. Of course, this does not mean Muhammed apporoved of the way it was done, we may never know. It is also not fair to make an entire religous ruling based on one course of action that may not represent the "right way".


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> I have also _italicized _where you prove to be a racist.


Um I checked your previous posts. Nothing was italicized. So you are saying I'm not a racist? Ok then, stop wasting my time~! Lets move on.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Um I checked your previous posts. Nothing was italicized. So you are saying I'm not a racist? Ok then, stop wasting my time~! Lets move on.



racist and stupid, i dont know how you manage to breathe, must be all the radiation.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> racist and stupid, i dont know how you manage to breathe, _must be all the radiation_



Again....its tiring talking to someone this ignorant. If you have nothing to say move on. You have no point. You know NOTHING about Japan. I bet you don't live here. I bet you have never lived here.  And I politely italicized again so maybe you will eventually understand. I'm not stupid I actually looked through all of your posts that I have replied to. I found nothing so you are probably being sarcastic or stupid. Which one I'm honestly not sure. So let"s move on.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

Most of the world knows about japan and how its stupid mistakes involving the handling of fukushima has panned out. btw you cant just call someone a racist for no good reason then get upset when someone calls you a racist for no reason.

Here you go, have a watch if your country allows it lolol


----------



## smile72 (Jun 4, 2017)

mech said:


> Most of the world knows about japan and how its stupid mistakes involving the handling of fukushima has panned out. btw you cant just call someone a racist for no good reason then get upset when someone calls you a racist for no reason.


I did have a reason I italicized my reason and you werent talking about the mistakes of Fukushima. You were associating our debt with Fukushima which is obviously not true. And then you write awful messages such as enjoy your cancer...yeah not ignorant at all...you don't even know where I live...so...you are suggesting all of Japan could be radioactive... and my last italicized message where again you brought up radiation. You know NOTHING about Japan. Well, I'm done with you. I won't reply anymore. You have no point. And you are a troll and a stupid one at that.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

smile72 said:


> I did have a reason I italicized my reason and you werent talking about the mistakes of Fukushima. You were associating our debt with Fukushima which is obviously not true. And then you write awful messages such as enjoy your cancer...yeah not ignorant at all...you don't even know where I live...so...you are suggesting all of Japan could be radioactive... and my last italicized message where again you brought up radiation. You know NOTHING about Japan. Well, I'm done with you. I won't reply anymore. You have no point. And you are a troll and a stupid one at that.




So acording to you I'm a racist because I said your country has debt because of the nuclear power plant meltdown you had? 

You sir are an idiot.


----------



## Viri (Jun 4, 2017)

Holy hell, I don't think our other monthly terrorist attack threads went to shit this bad!


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 4, 2017)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...-entire-pacific-ocean-and-its-going-get-worse

Here is how the nuclear spill looks like from Fukushima in Japan


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 4, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> the verse that says that (98:6) doesnt say that these people are not innocent, merely wrongdoers.


I said there are different views on the word innocent and I will prove it by pointing to what you said further down.




TheDarkGreninja said:


> 9:29 has to do with the Tabuk expedition. Here's a hadith on it:
> ...
> Notice the fact that they were already there. It would suggest it was they who had started it.


You must be kidding. I appreciate your calmness and politeness but this is just... wow. There are actually people who argue the 3rd Reich only defended itself but I don't like to argue with these people. Pointless. Arabia was of no interest to the Romans. It was mostly desert and crude oil hadn't been used yet. Furthermore both the Romans and Persians were weak after killing each other for such a long time. There was no reason to threaten or conquer Arabia.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> It was not his wife it was a slave. The issue with this is that she was killed for doing it continuously without pause.
> He chose to kill her after giving ample warning to stop and by disregarding and slandering Islam she was killed. Of course, this does not mean Muhammed apporoved of the way it was done, we may never know. It is also not fair to make an entire religous ruling based on one course of action that may not represent the "right way".


It was not the only incident. Right underneath it is a Hadith of a man killing a Jewish woman for the slandering Muhammad and he stated nothing should be done about it. Even if we disregard the assassinations (I couldn't find a reference about a singing girl for example) for a moment and just analyse your response:
"*she was a slave*" -> Does it make a difference? Are their lives worth less?
"*The issue with this is that she was killed for doing it continuously without pause.*"? Are you serious? If my anyone called me an asshole for the rest of my life it would never occur to me to kill her. How can you seriously defend this? 
"*Of course, this does not mean Muhammed apporoved of the way it was done, we may never know*." Maybe he could have said: "Thanks for wanting to protect my honor but next time don't put a F*CKING KNIFE IN HER!" ? Just an idea...
"*It is also not fair to make an entire religous ruling based on one course of action that may not represent the "right way*": Muhammad is a role model according to Islam. That's why Muslims around the world imitate him.

Again, don't take it personally but you sound just like fundamentalist Christians who defend vile teachings in the Bible ("the Kaananites were sinners", "those laws were only for a limited time" etc).


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 4, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Arabia was of no interest to the Romans.



You've got to accept the fact that the Byzantines were there before Muhammed declared war. This hadith is Sahih, by the way.
You're just giving an opinion that, mind you, is baseless.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Right underneath it is a Hadith of a man killing a Jewish woman for the slandering Muhammad and he stated nothing should be done about it



Two different occasions are still not enough for a legal ruling. Anyway, slandering the prophet was punishable by death and was not considered the right thing to do when people were given places to live thanks to that same man. So basically biting the hand that feeds them. Whether or not this fits into Shariah is a debated topic.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> "*she was a slave*" -> Does it make a difference? Are their lives worth less?



I was clarifying your point, and no it doesn't change anything.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Are you serious? If my anyone called me an asshole for the rest of my life it would never occur to me to kill her. How can you seriously defend this?



That's completely different if they were fed and clothed by you and then went on to attack you for it? Yeah, I would stop clothing them. Muhammed never excused their actions but he didn't punish them either.
But I refer you to my above comment.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Thanks for wanting to protect my honor but next time don't put a F*CKING KNIFE IN HER!



"As for killing a dhimmi unlawfully, it is major sin, and the warning concerning that is very stern, as was proven in _Saheeh al-Bukhaari_ (3166) from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr (may Allaah be pleased with him) who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever killed a mu’aahid will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, although its fragrance may be detected from a distance of forty years’ travel.” Imam al-Bukhaari included this report in a chapter in his _Saheeh_ entitled “Chapter: the sin of one who kills a mu’aahid unlawfully.”

Just a quote I found. 



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Muhammad is a role model according to Islam



Yes he is. And did he order her to be killed unlawfully?


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## deinonychus71 (Jun 5, 2017)

barak06 said:


> Ok firstly you seems like a dinosaur to me !
> More seriously you said you worked but most of them don't work ! You've seen the exceptions. Not representative ! In France you can live quiet well with social wellfare. And also the more children you've got the more money and the more free services you get ! Far away from US. And we can id the terrorists : muslims ! No boudhists, jews, or catholics ! May be some converted from the last one searching their path.... lol (i don't feel like to laugh however)


Even if that statement is true, what do you do with all of them who actually work and are perfectly well integrated? What do you do with people who look like they might be muslims but don't actually have a religion?
They exist, you won't hear about them because they don't cause issues. So what do we do, do we ID them as terrorists too? Do we arrest them? Welcome to another Hitler era.

Do not alienate the people that are on your side.


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## Viri (Jun 5, 2017)

Spoiler








Heh


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 5, 2017)

1st victim has been named, a Canadian national .. poor soul 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40153090


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## barak06 (Jun 5, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> Even if that statement is true, what do you do with all of them who actually work and are perfectly well integrated? What do you do with people who look like they might be muslims but don't actually have a religion?
> They exist, you won't hear about them because they don't cause issues. So what do we do, do we ID them as terrorists too? Do we arrest them? Welcome to another Hitler era.
> 
> Do not alienate the people that are on your side.


You did the hitler Thing !!! The Godwin point !! You should be banned for this dirty trick (The muslims were on his side during wwII by the way )
But i don't Want to insult you, you.re not worth it. You're not confronted with the invasion of muslims in your country, like we are in Europe specially in France.
I Know it's too late. And we can't kill them all, afterall they are human beings like us .... seriously how old are you ? 16 ?


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## deinonychus71 (Jun 5, 2017)

barak06 said:


> You did the hitler Thing !!! The Godwin point !! You should be banned for this dirty trick (The muslims were on his side during wwII by the way )
> But i don't Want to insult you, you.re not worth it. You're not confronted with the invasion of muslims in your country, like we are in Europe specially in France.
> I Know it's too late. And we can't kill them all, afterall they are human beings like us .... seriously how old are you ? 16 ?



*sighs*. Another jewel of argumentation.
- Hitler being a meme on the Internet doesn't automatically invalidate an argument. In the present context, you did well at making my point.
- Someone must be worth it for you to be insulted. Interesting.
- I lived for about 25 years in France, I am sorry for presenting a slightly alternative version of your reality of good and evil.
- No you can't kill them all. Thanks to the majority of the French still having some common sense.
- I'm 27, but I do believe even a teenager can understand why hateful speeches are counter productive.

Seriously, you guys still haven't figured why Marine LePen did so awful during the second debate? Not every discussion belongs on 4chan.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

Sorry for responding so late. I will keep it brief.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> the verse that says that (98:6) doesnt say that these people are not innocent, merely wrongdoers.


It says they are the worst creatures. Let's leave it at that. I hope you can see how this mindset could POTENTIALLY make Muslims think very little of their fellow man.




TheDarkGreninja said:


> Notice the fact that they were already there. It would suggest it was they who had started it.


Does a small Roman outpost at the north of Arabia (which they didn't even try to retake) justify an all-out war with an empire?
9:29 and 9:30 say that Christians and Jews need to be humiliated, paying the Jizya tax. That sounds like a takeover of cities (civilians), not some forgotten outpost. 




TheDarkGreninja said:


> I should've been clearer, you can tell your parents your lack of faith, but they can't ever lay a hand on you unless you publicly announce it.


So you don't see a problem with that?
You defend an oppressive system that even calls on family members to hand over each other to Sharia law, i.e. being killed if one denounces his faith.
Both Muhammad and Muslims demand tolerance when they are weak (e.g. small minority) but show no tolerance once they are strong. Did Muhammad preach publicly in Mekka or not? He did. By your own standards, he should have been killed in the very beginning by the non-monotheists of his time!
The Quran mentions Abraham' father and how he threatened him with death if he didn't stop preaching monotheism. By your [the Muslim] standard, Abraham's father should have killed Abraham for preaching publicly.
Pls explain why you don't have a problem with this double standard.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> It was not his wife it was a slave. The issue with this is that she was killed for doing it continuously without pause.
> He chose to kill her after giving ample warning to stop and by disregarding and slandering Islam she was killed.


And that's shocking! Quran allows (actually orders) men to hit disobedient women. But first they need to be warned. Aaah so then everything is ok.
No it isn't! Men shouldn't hit their wives at any point (unless maybe in self-defense, but that's obvious) and people shouldn't kill others for insulting a prophet or VIP or ideology. How can you defend this?



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Of course, this does not mean Muhammed apporoved of the way it was done, we may never know. It is also not fair to make an entire religous ruling based on one course of action that may not represent the "right way".


If I kill your enemy and you publicly say I should not be prosecuted, then it is approval.


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> And that's shocking! Quran allows (actually orders) men to hit disobedient women. But first they need to be warned. Aaah so then everything is ok.
> No it isn't! Men shouldn't hit their wives at any point (unless maybe in self-defense, but that's obvious) and people shouldn't kill others for insulting a prophet or VIP or ideology. How can you defend this?


The Bible also says that.

Anyways, this debate is not useful. If people want to follow one of the books (it being the Torah, the Bible or the Quran) at the letter, they can't live in the 21th century. Like how Christian countries for the most have entered modernity, some Muslim countries also did (Morocco, Algeria, etc.). People who want to follow a book written 1,400 years ago are retards.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> The Bible also says that.


We are talking about Islam because the London terrorists said "for Allah" when stabbing people. They were radical Muslims.
Why do you feel the need to deflect? Once we see weekly terror attacks from Christians killing for Jesus, then we can analyze the Bible.
Commands like that (killing people who worship idols for example) exist in the Bible but I don't see too many terror attacks emerging because of it. 



StarTrekVoyager said:


> Anyways, this debate is not useful.


Then don't participate. You sound just like Angela Merkel who said this sentence when a book was published that Muslims found offensive.



StarTrekVoyager said:


> If people want to follow one of the books (it being the Torah, the Bible or the Quran) at the letter, they can't live in the 21th century. Like how Christian countries for the most have entered modernity, some Muslim countries also did (Morocco, Algeria, etc.). People who want to follow a book written 1,400 years ago are retards.


Say the last sentence publically in Morocco and Algeria. Let us know how it went.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> We are talking about Islam because the London terrorists said "for Allah" when stabbing people. They were radical Muslims.
> Why do you feel the need to deflect? Once we see weekly terror attacks from Christians killing for Jesus, then we can analyze the Bible.
> Commands like that (killing people who worship idols for example) exist in the Bible but I don't see too many terror attacks emerging because of it.
> 
> ...


I think stating it is not useful is a valid way of active participation.
Explaining it is misleading and also not going into any productive direction.
Don't cut somebody out (or them order not to participate) because of a whim of yours, for fucks sake.


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## Hayleia (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> We are talking about Islam because the London terrorists said "for Allah" when stabbing people. They were radical Muslims.
> Why do you feel the need to deflect? Once we see weekly terror attacks from Christians killing for Jesus, then we can analyze the Bible.
> Commands like that (killing people who worship idols for example) exist in the Bible but I don't see too many terror attacks emerging because of it.


You're spending too much time on details. StarTrekVoyager didn't deny Islam had bad sides, he just said all religions were and that instead of focusing on the one that causes problems right now, it would be better to get rid of them all.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

So if people debate climate change the comment "this debate is not useful" is a valid way of active participation? Aha.

It is useful as there is a (moderate?) Muslim user defending the killing of a person who denounces his faith publicly and for killing a person in private who doesn't stop insulting a prophet despite being warned. I want to understand this kind of mindset.
So yes, the discussion is useful. And it has been pretty civil so far.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So if people debate climate change the comment "this debate is not useful" is a valid way of active participation? Aha.
> 
> It is useful as there is a (moderate?) Muslim user defending the killing of a person who denounces his faith publicly and for killing a person in private who doesn't stop insulting a prophet despite being warned. I want to understand this kind of mindset.
> So yes, the discussion is useful. And it has been pretty civil so far.


That is your opinion, and exactly because you have the right to state it, you don't have the right to silence someone else's. You are not special, you're just another average temper, and whatever the self entitlement that makes you think you have more of a right than somebody else to state your opinion is no more than a self aggrandizing delusion.


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## G0R3Z (Jun 6, 2017)

Being British, other British people might like the #thingsthatleavebritainreeling tag on twitter. Now these will shake your very soul.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> That is your opinion, and exactly because you have the right to state it, you don't have the right to silence someone else's. You are not special, you're just another average temper, and whatever the self entitlement that makes you think you have more of a right than somebody else to state your opinion is no more than a self aggrandizing delusion.


I don't try to silence anyone. I just showed the irony of participating in a debate by declaring it not useful. Of course he can participate.


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Say the last sentence publically in Morocco and Algeria. Let us know how it went.


My parents are born in Morocco. Despite the islam still being somehow part of the law, it is a country with freedom of religion. Islam there is much more a tradition/ a culture than a matter of belief.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> My parents are born in Morocco. Despite the islam still being somehow part of the law, it is a country with freedom of religion. Islam there is much more a tradition/ a culture than a matter of belief.


Ok, but honestly, in which situation would you experience more physical harm:
a) Publicly saying that the Bible is for retards in a crowd of Christians in the Vatican
or b) publicly saying that the Quran is for retards in a crowd of Muslims in Morocco or Algeria.
[note that I didn't say Mekka or Medina, which would be the equivalent of the Vatican]


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Ok, but honestly, in which situation would you experience more physical harm:
> a) Publicly saying that the Bible is for retards in a crowd of Christians in the Vatican
> or b) publicly saying that the Quran is for retards in a crowd of Muslims in Morocco or Algeria.
> [note that I didn't say Mekka or Medina, which would be the equivalent of the Vatican]


I didn't say these books were for retards. I said that wanting to obey these books to the letter in 2017 was retarded.

And honestly, I don't even know what'd be the worst. Perhaps saying that the Bible is for retards in some place in Alabama would be worse than those two.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Ok, but honestly, in which situation would you experience more physical harm:
> a) Publicly saying that the Bible is for retards in a crowd of Christians in the Vatican
> or b) publicly saying that the Quran is for retards in a crowd of Muslims in Morocco or Algeria.
> [note that I didn't say Mekka or Medina, which would be the equivalent of the Vatican]


The latter probably, that said the Vatican is not the most extermist place.
Go say "the bible is for retards" in a crowd of Christians near to a church in some very extermist religious state of USA and you will get very hurt.
(the same applies to some other countries)

(I think I got ninja'd )


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## G0R3Z (Jun 6, 2017)

In the end, it's still people arguing over who has the best imaginary friend. 

Religion isn't relevant, nor is it useful in teaching morals. Morals themselves are an illusion, and different societies have their own view on what is 'moral', even if they're not overly religious. 

What needs to be realised is just because religion is a force in the world, it doesn't need respect. I'll put this way - If I was in the street giving out leaflets/pamphlets to people talking about the Sun God Ra, what would people think? People would think I was insane, police would likely be called and I'd be told to cease. But if someone does it about the Christian or Islamic God, it's somehow okay. Why do they get a free pass? All religions and ideas are equally open to ridicule.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

Mh I didn't think of the USA. You two might be right. I almost want to test it (in case I visit the USA one day). XD


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Mh I didn't think of the USA. You two might be right. I almost want to test it (in case I visit the USA one day). XD


Shoutouts to the guys of Top Gear who decided to enter Alabama with cars with "Gay Pride", "Hillary for President", etc. written on them. They stopped at a gas station and were chased XD


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## G0R3Z (Jun 6, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Shoutouts to the guys of Top Gear who decided to enter Alabama with cars with "Gay Pride", "Hillary for President", etc. written on them. They stopped at a gas station and were chased XD



I remember that Special. They put stuff like "Nascar Sucks" and "Country and Western is rubbish". They're not wrong but you know... 'Mericans.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 6, 2017)

G0R3Z said:


> In the end, it's still people arguing over who has the best imaginary friend.








Made me think of this, couldn't help it.



G0R3Z said:


> What needs to be realised is just because religion is a force in the world, it doesn't need respect. I'll put this way - If I was in the street giving out leaflets/pamphlets to people talking about the Sun God Ra, what would people think? People would think I was insane, police would likely be called and I'd be told to cease. But if someone does it about the Christian or Islamic God, it's somehow okay. Why do they get a free pass? All religions and ideas are equally open to ridicule.


It is not religion exactly what requires respect, but the people that practice and share it, because they are people.
Everything is "open to ridicule" if you wish, from economics, to the current social order, to the concept of nationality and belonging, but you should show respect in a society, exchange respect for respect, be civilized at least in a "let's agree to disagree" kind of way.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Shoutouts to the guys of Top Gear who decided to enter Alabama with cars with "Gay Pride", "Hillary for President", etc. written on them. They stopped at a gas station and were chased XD



Thanks for the suggestion. It's actually on youtube:


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## G0R3Z (Jun 6, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> It is not religion exactly what requires respect, but the people that practice and share it, because they are people.
> Everything is "open to ridicule" if you wish, from economics, to the current social order, to the concept of nationality and belonging, but you should show respect in a society, exchange respect for respect, be civilized at least in a "let's agree to disagree" kind of way.



You're right, absolutely. I have respect for people, but I don't have to respect their outdated, idiotic and potentially dangerous ideologies. My philosophy is basically "Don't be a dick". People can believe what they like, but just be a friendly, contributing member of society who pays their taxes and just gets on with it.

But time has come to question all of Religion and everything it stands for. Religion is not a force for good in the world, from the priests and ministers who fiddle with little boys, protected by the pope himself to the islamic extremists and their apologists. I've read the Qu'ran, it's not a nice book; it's very similar to the bible and has much more bloodshed and war. Mohammad is not a prophet worth respecting or following, he was a vicious, calculating tyrant according to the book. 

Even if modern muslims don't agree with what ISIS stands for, why aren't they doing more? If I was a part of a religion just like any society, who would put up with someone besmirching that? They're here killing people in the name of Allah, and the best normal muslims are doing is apologizing for them, saying they don't stand for the same cause? Where's the retaliation, where's the protests? Where's the demonstration of unity to show that no, they don't and won't stand for it? I'd be doing everything I can to demonstrate that I oppose them.


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## deinonychus71 (Jun 6, 2017)

G0R3Z said:


> Even if modern muslims don't agree with what ISIS stands for, why aren't they doing more? If I was a part of a religion just like any society, who would put up with someone besmirching that? They're here killing people in the name of Allah, and the best normal muslims are doing is apologizing for them, saying they don't stand for the same cause? Where's the retaliation, where's the protests? Where's the demonstration of unity to show that no, they don't and won't stand for it? I'd be doing everything I can to demonstrate that I oppose them.



As a man, do you feel that you have to demonstrate whenever another man rapes a woman?
This is an idiotic example yes, but they don't actually have to apologize in the first place. They haven't done anything and are hated anyway.

I dont know how I would feel about constantly having to apologize to people who are going to hate me nonetheless, even though all i did is having a belief that is used by psychopaths to do wrong. 

This logic is used in America with guns btw. As a gun owner and proud supporter of guns you dont feel like you have to apologize when a shooting happens.


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## G0R3Z (Jun 6, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> As a man, do you feel that you have to demonstrate whenever another man rapes a woman?
> This is an idiotic example yes, but they don't actually have to apologize in the first place. They haven't done anything and are hated anyway.
> 
> I dont know how I would feel about constantly having to apologize to people who are going to hate me nonetheless, even though all i did is having a belief that is used by psychopaths to do wrong.



I'm not saying apologise, that's what they do already. I'm saying that in defense of their religion, they should oppose ISIS. Do something other than "This is not what Islam stands for". 

I know i'm disgusted when I hear about Rape, that's how they should react. They should be disgusted that their religion, no matter how ridiculous it may be, is being besmirched by people who would kill for some vague goal.


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## insidexdeath (Jun 6, 2017)

G0R3Z said:


> I'm not saying apologise, that's what they do already. I'm saying that in defense of their religion, they should oppose ISIS. Do something other than "This is not what Islam stands for".
> 
> I know i'm disgusted when I hear about Rape, that's how they should react. They should be disgusted that their religion, no matter how ridiculous it may be, is being besmirched by people who would kill for some vague goal.


Lol Iraqi/Libyan/Syrian forces fighting off ISIS in their countries to ensure that it doesn't spread out like cancer isn't enough of you? Do you know how many people died in the process of freeing territories? Honestly this whole you're 'not doing enough' is getting old, and quite idiotic.


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## barak06 (Jun 6, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> *sighs*. Another jewel of argumentation.
> - Hitler being a meme on the Internet doesn't automatically invalidate an argument. In the present context, you did well at making my point.
> - Someone must be worth it for you to be insulted. Interesting.
> - I lived for about 25 years in France, I am sorry for presenting a slightly alternative version of your reality of good and evil.
> ...


no need to reply. You take everything on first degree. You feel you're right every time you speak. And yes you're not worth it and yes when you use Hitler for this or that everytime you're not agree, disqualify you and what you say.
Donc Jesus, si je peux vous appeler ainsi, qui ne voit rien de la réalité
- c'est vous qui classez les gens comme bons ou mauvais (moi je suis mauvais pour vous) Moi j'ai dit que 1 musulman sur 1000 était djihadiste, c'est pas beaucoup mais ça fait 8000 en France et 50% des autres les soutiennent et essaient d'attaquer nos faibles démocraties (avec votre aide)
- seulement la fréquentation de musulmans bien intégrés représentant 1% de leur population
- qui ne voit pas qu'ils se réclament musulmans avant tout,
- qu'ils nous submergent avec l'aide d'idiots utiles comme toi, plein de bonnes intentions mais qui en réalité ne font que paver l'enfer (comme le dit le proverbe) en minimisant, en relativisant, en traitant d.islamophobe quiconque denonce la realite de ce qui se passe

Ok je suis un méchant blanc et les musulmans sont de gentils marrons.
Vous avez gagné, je me soumets


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It says they are the worst creatures. Let's leave it at that. I hope you can see how this mindset could POTENTIALLY make Muslims think very little of their fellow man.



Let's look at this in detail, shall we?
It's unavoidable that those of the book and polytheists will go to hell (of the islamic viewpoint) and why should they be praised for that? The Quran isn't saying you shouldn't respect them or tolerate them, it is saying they will be the one's in hell and for that they will be the worst. And how at all is this calling muslims to kill jews and christians?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You defend an oppressive system that even calls on family members to hand over each other to Sharia law, i.e. being killed if one denounces his faith.
> Both Muhammad and Muslims demand tolerance when they are weak (e.g. small minority) but show no tolerance once they are strong. Did Muhammad preach publicly in Mekka or not? He did. By your own standards, he should have been killed in the very beginning by the non-monotheists of his time!
> The Quran mentions Abraham' father and how he threatened him with death if he didn't stop preaching monotheism. By your [the Muslim] standard, Abraham's father should have killed Abraham for preaching publicly.
> Pls explain why you don't have a problem with this double standard.



That's so much bullshit in an entire paragraph that I'm surprised you hadn't noticed any of it. No offence to you personally, of course.

1. Family Members can keep it secret.
2. Prove that claim. That sharia law has no tolerance.
3. I didn't say you can't preach against a religion, what I meant to say was that you cannot be deceitful in your preaching. As in if you are caught lying, then the death penalty is in order.
4. So debunk these three points, please.

Here's why you cant:
1. Sharia is public law and unlike other law systems does not deal AT ALL with the private lives of the caliphate, that's why there was so much freedom in the caliphate.
2. Sharia is tolerant of many views as proven by history. The history you went on to ignore, as well as my hadith post.
3. Same as above.

This brings me to something I'll be accusing you of, and if at all you feel I'm misrepresenting you. please point that out.
So as I was saying, I've seen you twice now deliberately ignore my posts. Are you trying to avoid being wrong or is there something else?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> And that's shocking! Quran allows (actually orders) men to hit disobedient women.



Yeah, I'm going to need evidence, but I think I know what you'll provide.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> people shouldn't kill others for insulting a prophet or VIP or ideology. How can you defend this?



Already addressed.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> If I kill your enemy and you publicly say I should not be prosecuted, then it is approval.



Annnnnd you completely ignored the hadith. The punishment is an eternity in hell, so what's the point of killing him when his fate has already been written. If anything it's a greater punishment to let him live and wait for his death.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Does a small Roman outpost at the north of Arabia (which they didn't even try to retake) justify an all-out war with an empire?
> 9:29 and 9:30 say that Christians and Jews need to be humiliated, paying the Jizya tax. That sounds like a takeover of cities (civilians), not some forgotten outpost.



No they dont.
here's what 9:30 says:
Quran 9:30 “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”

Yeah, so only certain Jews and all Christians.

Also I'll need evidence of this "outpost".



sarkwalvein said:


> It is not religion exactly what requires respect, but the people that practice and share it, because they are people.
> Everything is "open to ridicule" if you wish, from economics, to the current social order, to the concept of nationality and belonging, but you should show respect in a society, exchange respect for respect, be civilized at least in a "let's agree to disagree" kind of way.



I absolutely agree.



G0R3Z said:


> I've read the Qu'ran, it's not a nice book; it's very similar to the bible and has much more bloodshed and war.
> Mohammad is not a prophet worth respecting or following, he was a vicious, calculating tyrant according to the book.
> 
> Even if modern muslims don't agree with what ISIS stands for, why aren't they doing more? If I was a part of a religion just like any society, who would put up with someone besmirching that? They're here killing people in the name of Allah, and the best normal muslims are doing is apologizing for them, saying they don't stand for the same cause? Where's the retaliation, where's the protests? Where's the demonstration of unity to show that no, they don't and won't stand for it? I'd be doing everything I can to demonstrate that I oppose them.



you obviously havent been keeping up with the news. Notice the fact syrian rebels fighting ISIS, if they were really on the same side, would they?
Here are some articles:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...am-media-outlets-say-organisers-a6765976.html
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/muslims-trump-isis-kurds-al-badr-iraq-islamic-state-election-2016
http://www.newsweek.com/muslim-countries-forming-military-alliance-fight-terrorism-586315
the rest of your claims are without basis, so I'll leave it at that.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Prove that claim. That sharia law has no tolerance.


Sharia tolerates people who submit. If you denounce your Mulim faith publicly or if you try to convince others of your non-Islamic religion or if you publicly attack Islam/Muhammad as a non-Muslim, you can be killed.
I really just want to understand this: How can you defend this kind of system? By the same standard Muhammad should have been killed by the polytheists for proselytizing among them and attacking their religion.
Hope you get my point.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> I didn't say you can't preach against a religion, what I meant to say was that you cannot be deceitful in your preaching. As in if you are caught lying, then the death penalty is in order.


That's not correct. Preaching was forbidden:
"Although _dhimmis_ were allowed to perform their religious rituals, they were obliged to do so in a manner not conspicuous to Muslims. Display of non-Muslim religious symbols, such as crosses or icons, was prohibited on buildings and on clothing (unless mandated as part of distinctive clothing). Loud prayers were forbidden, as were the ringing of church bells and the blowing of the shofar.[99][_citation needed_] They were also not allowed to build or repair churches without Muslim consent.[70]* Moreover, dhimmis were not allowed to seek converts among Muslims*" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi



TheDarkGreninja said:


> This brings me to something I'll be accusing you of, and if at all you feel I'm misrepresenting you. please point that out.
> So as I was saying, I've seen you twice now deliberately ignore my posts. Are you trying to avoid being wrong or is there something else?


I said from the beginning that there were times and places in which Muslim rulers were very tolerant. Some would argue that they were unislamic (e.g. drinking alcohol) because of it. I remember reading about Damascus and Bagdhad (I believe around the 10th century).
 However, the first Caliphate, Rashidun Caliphate - named after the rightly guided Caliphs after Muhammad, was not like that. Dhimmis were not aloud to preach to Muslims.

Would you agree with the following justification (as you have not given me one yet) for why you defend this practice? I once heard Zakir Naik make the same argument:
_
"For instance, it is not permissible for Christians to go around preaching their faith in an Islamic country even though they believe that it is compulsory for them to do so. The reason is because this directly clashes with Islam that forbids such a thing. One may ask "Why don't you just let the Non-Muslims preach their faith and let the people freely accept or reject? It is their personal choice". Well then using the same logic we could then argue "Why don't you just let the drug dealers sell their drugs and let the people freely accept or reject? It is their personal choice"._
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_status_of_non_muslims_in_the_islamic_state





TheDarkGreninja said:


> Yeah, I'm going to need evidence, but I think I know what you'll provide.


Then let's not open another topic.
Which Hadith did I fail to acknowledge btw? I didn't do it on purpose.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> No they dont.
> here's what 9:30 says:
> Quran 9:30 “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
> 
> Yeah, so only certain Jews and all Christians.


There was disagreement among some Christian groups (e.g. Arians) whether Jesus was divine and human, only divine or only human. But all Christians called and still call Jesus the Son of God.

9:29 tells Muslims to fight Christians
9:30 tells Muslims why (because Christians say Jesus is the Son of God)



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Also I'll need evidence of this "outpost".


Can't find it. I doubt it was a Muslim city taken by Byzantine Christians. Can you provide me evidence of Christian offensive wars towards Muslim that would justify an all-out war against the Byzantine empire?
Here is the (according to Islamic history) letter of Muhammad to the Byzantine emperor:

*"In the name of God, the Most Merciful, the Bestower of Mercy

From Muhammad, son of Abdullah to Heraclius the Leader of the Romans:

Peace be upon he who follows the guidance.

Furthermore, I invite you with the invitation of Islam. If you accept Islam- you will find peace, God will give your reward in double. If you turn away, you will bear the sin of the Arians."
*
-> Doesn't that sound nice? Sounds more direct than a mafia letter.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Mh I didn't think of the USA. You two might be right. I almost want to test it (in case I visit the USA one day). XD


Most of us that see good in Islam are from America, where we see firsthand the bad in Christianity lol

Which is not saying I see Christianity as a bad religion, I think both just have equal potential for good or for harm


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> you can be killed.


Still no evidence for that.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Preaching was forbidden





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Dhimmis were not aloud to preach to Muslims



Could you link the exact Wikipedia article?
Also, it was preaching *to muslims *that was forbidden. I never stated it wasn't as what I meant when I said that was that criticising Islam was not forbidden. Preaching was just a poor choice of words.
Also, I never stated it was legal for non-Muslims to try and convert Muslims.

"Can't find it."

That's good enough for me.

As for the letter. I already provided evidence in the form of a Hadith that it was the Byzantines who waged war.

More evidence:
"According to Muslim biographies, Muhammed, having received intelligence that Byzantine forces were concentrating in northern Arabia with alleged intentions of invading Arabia, led a Muslim army north to Tabouk in present-day northwestern Saudi Arabia, with the intention of pre-emptively engaging the Byzantine army; the news, however, proved to be false. Though it was not a battle in the typical sense, nevertheless the event represented the first Arab attack on the Byzantines. It did not, however, lead immediately to a military confrontation.[8]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Byzantine_wars#Muslim_conquests.2C_634.E2.80.93718

He received intelligence that was false.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> More evidence:
> "According to Muslim biographies, Muhammed, having received intelligence that Byzantine forces were concentrating in northern Arabia with alleged intentions of invading Arabia, led a Muslim army north to Tabouk in present-day northwestern Saudi Arabia, with the intention of pre-emptively engaging the Byzantine army; the news, however, proved to be false. Though it was not a battle in the typical sense, nevertheless the event represented the first Arab attack on the Byzantines. It did not, however, lead immediately to a military confrontation.[8]"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Byzantine_wars#Muslim_conquests.2C_634.E2.80.93718
> 
> He received intelligence that was false.



It was false but Muslims attacked the Byzantine empire anyway, and all of North Africa, and India, and Persia, and Europe (Spain, South-East-Europe, even France).
So was that all in defense?
*
I really want to hear your justification for Christians not being able to preach to Muslims. By the same standard, Muhammad should not have been allowed to preach to polytheists of his day.
You are in favor of oppression. You live in the UK. You can go to a Christian and tell him how great the Quran is and that he should convert. By your own standard you should not be able to do so because you live in a Muslim minority country.*


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I really want to hear your justification for Christians not being able to preach to Muslims. By the same standard, Muhammad should not have been allowed to preach to polytheists of his day.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Most of us that see good in Islam are from America, where we see firsthand the bad in Christianity lol
> 
> Which is not saying I see Christianity as a bad religion, I think both just have equal potential for good or for harm



Christianity is a bad religion. It teaches you that your own mother will burn in hell forever unless she believes in the same imaginary friend as you.
The difference is: The Christian faith in its first 300 years grew by pacifism, Islam by warfare/subjugation.
+Christians don't take their religion as serious anymore. I hope the same will be true for Islam but all signs point to the opposite. And your government is largely to blame for it by funding Jihadis from the Afghan-Sowjet war till now (mine is to blame as well).


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Christianity is a bad religion. It teaches you that your own mother will burn in hell forever unless she believes in the same imaginary friend as you.
> The difference is: The Christian faith in its first 300 years grew by pacifism, Islam by warfare/subjugation.
> +Christians don't take their religion as serious anymore. I hope the same will be true for Islam but all signs point to the opposite. And your government is largely to blame for it by funding Jihadis from the Afghan-Sowjet war till now (mine is to blame as well).


You really have to watch TV docs about Islam. This is entirely false. The Muslims always tolerated the others having different religion. Cordoba is a great example of this cosmopolitan atmosphere.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It was false but Muslims attacked the Byzantine empire anyway, and all of North Africa, and India, and Persia, and Europe (Spain, South-East-Europe, even France).
> So was that all in defense?
> *
> I really want to hear your justification for Christians not being able to preach to Muslims. By the same standard, Muhammad should not have been allowed to preach to polytheists of his day.
> You are in favor of oppression. You live in the UK. You can go to a Christian and tell him how great the Quran is and that he should convert. By your own standard you should not be able to do so because you live in a Muslim minority country.*




Those were not by Muhammed so it's unfair to suggest they were. So now, prove they were all done in absolute violent intent.

Thought I'd copy some hadith down:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Whoever usurps the land of somebody unjustly, his neck will be encircled with it down the seven earths (on the Day of Resurrection). "
- Bukhari 2452

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Whoever takes a piece of the land of others unjustly, he will sink down the seven earths on the Day of Resurrection
- Bukahri 2454

Christian's are not allowed to preach their religion as it is of Islamic belief that Islam is the one true religion. It would be irrational to allow people to tell people the one true religion is wrong in public. If they want to debate Islam that is completely within their right, but that is completely different to preaching the religion.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew's_Day_massacre


So it was ok for Muhammad to have a double standard because of this random event 900 years later? And that's why it's ok to for DarkGreninja to have a double standard today? 
I hope he has a better response...


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Islam by warfare/subjugation



You've been claiming this for a while now, but I've provided a lot of evidence to suggest that if one were to do that they'd go to hell.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jun 6, 2017)

barak06 said:


> no need to reply. You take everything on first degree. You feel you're right every time you speak. And yes you're not worth it and yes when you use Hitler for this or that everytime you're not agree, disqualify you and what you say.


Well I'm not going to say something if I don't believe it to be right, otherwise what's the point of debating?
What is this "everytime" you're talking about? I could basically say the same thing to you, you call the meme "everytime" someone calls you out for being fascist. I don't think that you realize that there ARE legitimate cases where it can be mentioned.

Answering the french stuff:
- I do judge people regarding certain topics, however I do not support any form of censorship like our beloved Valls tried to do for so long. I believe it to be counter productive, since you can't directly answer to people spreading alternative facts.
- Even if only 50% (you can say 1% but I'm gonna assume that's your first degree talking) of them are well integrated and are condemning ISIS attacks (which they do, some of them publicly), that's still 50% that aren't responsible. So yes, whenever people start blaming "the Muslims" as a whole they're basically accusing a decent amount of innocent people, which circles back to the H word.

One thing that is often completely ignored but is actually a hard proof that peaceful integration is perfectly possible: *How old are the terrorists? Do you hear about Muslims from the first/second generation causing any trouble?* These people have been in Europe for as long as any of us, never caused any issue while living their faith.
So please, let me know how accusing Muslims in general in France helping in any way. Not only does it not fix anything regarding terror attacks, but you are wrongly accusing those who otherwise would be on your side, people that have been there alongside us since before we were born. What good is it doing long term? What would be the solution to this problem if things were going your way, no first degree this time?

Like I said before, I do despise religions as a whole, I do believe they serve as the perfect excuse to justify atrocities. However the opposite is also true, they were and are still used to blame a community of people when it's convenient.

Just wish it was that easy to blame the NRA whenever a shooting happens .


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Christian's are not allowed to preach their religion as it is of Islamic belief that Islam is the one true religion. It would be irrational to allow people to tell people the one true religion is wrong in public. If they want to debate Islam that is completely within their right, but that is completely different to preaching the religion.


Like when Protestants were massacred and killed and harrassed during the Renaissance.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So it was ok for Muhammad to have a double standard because of this random event 900 years later? And that's why it's ok to for DarkGreninja to have a double standard today?
> I hope he has a better response...


Niope, actually I was referring to other religions not being allowed. It has been the case in Christianity for centuries, Protestants were chased, killed, harrassed and massacred. In Islam, other religions have always been tolerated, until wahabbist countries like Dumbi Arabi of today decided to transform Islam into a shitstorm.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> You really have to watch TV docs about Islam. This is entirely false. The Muslims always tolerated the others having different religion. Cordoba is a great example of this cosmopolitan atmosphere.


Pls google "Cordoba myth". It is propaganda spread by groups like CAIR. 
E.g.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.de/2010/08/media-myth-of-cordoba.html

It's could even provide German main stream media articles.
But even if it were true, it's one time and place in history. It is certainly not true for Muhammad and the rightly guided caliphs (you could have your own religion but you could not preach to Muslims, for example) nor Sharia countries of today (e.g. Saudi Arabia).


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Pls google "Cordoba myth". It is propaganda spread by groups like CAIR.
> E.g.
> http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.de/2010/08/media-myth-of-cordoba.html
> 
> ...


I have many examples of this. When the Ottoman Turks invaded Constantinople, there was a similar privileged status for Christians and Jews. In Morocco also, Jews have always been protected by the kingdom, especially during WWII, where the king Muhammad V said to Pétain to go fuck himself when asked to make Jewish people wear yellow stars.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 6, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Like when Protestants were massacred and killed and harrassed during the Renaissance.


And when Spanish "missionaries" pillaged and raped the Native American population in the name of the Catholic church


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Christian's are not allowed to preach their religion as it is of Islamic belief that Islam is the one true religion.


And you are in favor of this? 
Did you know that as a Muslim you can fast during Ramadan in China, but you better do it at home. In schools teachers sometimes tell (or even force) their Muslim students to drink something. And I'm not sure whether Muslims can preach Islam, let's say they can't. I also once read articles about Muslims and Christians being arrested for praying publicly. Is that alright with you then?
Because atheism is the "one true belief" there.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> And you are in favor of this?
> Did you know that as a Muslim you can fast during Ramadan in China, but you better do it at home. In schools teachers sometimes tell (or even force) their Muslim students to drink something. And I'm not sure whether Muslims can preach Islam, let's say they can't. I also once read articles about Muslims and Christians being arrested for praying publicly. Is that alright with you then?
> Because atheism is the "one true belief" there.



If they want to impose their laws like that, then that's them. Whether or not I disagree is an entirely different affair.
I don't believe in interfering with the beliefs and laws of other countries as long as we can all get along.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> If they want to impose their laws like that, then that's them. Whether or not I disagree is an entirely different affair.
> I don't believe in interfering with the beliefs and laws of other countries as long as we can all get along.


Very good mindset.
Then even we can get along.
Cheers.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Very good mindset.
> Then even we can get along.
> Cheers.


Just for the record, I don't dislike you for disagreeing with me. You seem like a genuine and cool guy


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## Joe88 (Jun 6, 2017)

Another terrorist attack this time in paris
A man yelled "this is for syria" while he attacked police officers with a hammer, he was then shot by armed police officers but is expected to survive, he had other weapons on him including knives 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gunshots-reported-notre-dame-cathedral-10571295


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2017)

"Tourists and locals piled into the cathedral after hearing the gunshots."
Did they think God would help them? I would not go into a public building in a situation like that. Choose a certain direction an run. Or maybe the Cathedral is always protected by police, I don't know.

UK should learn from it an equip their police with guns (and train them, of course).


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 6, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> Another terrorist attack this time in paris
> A man yelled "this is for syria" while he attacked police officers with a hammer, he was then shot by armed police officers but is expected to survive, he had other weapons on him including knives
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gunshots-reported-notre-dame-cathedral-10571295


What did the shooter mean by "this is for Syria"?... as far as I'm aware France hasn't really done anything one way or another towards them, other than accepting refugees which could be considered a positive thing

Sounds like a line wolf nutjob


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## ned (Jun 6, 2017)

I honestly don't know how religion in any shape or form ever begot to become a thing,
humanity didn't need it to survive dinosaurs or the ice age so why do we need it in
the modern world? isn't time we looked after eachover better instead of killing one another over trivial waste that nobody can 100% prove and be done with religion altogether. 

Ok they might of prayed to the stars now again but that was because they where either bored shitless or going delusional from lack of food / water, further up the timeline people started worshiping animals as gods, see where i'm going with this?

And just for the sake of argument why do we even need religion if a god does exist are they that vain that they need to be constantly worshipped by some set out rules? rules more than likely setup to groom others by currupt bastards / secret societies, if I want to worship my god why can't I do it by on my own by my own rules it's my god afterall.

I guess some people are just easily lead and can't cope without feeling wanted / needed so they brainwash
themselves and others into believing in things that don't exist in a blind effort to keep sane.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

ned said:


> I honestly don't know how religion in any shape or form ever begot to become a thing,
> humanity didn't need it to survive dinosaurs or the ice age so why do we need it in
> the modern world? isn't time we looked after eachover better instead of killing one another over trivial waste that nobody can 100% prove and be done with religion altogether.
> 
> ...



Religion came about at around the same time humans began to develop complex enough brains to understand it. It's obvious that it was because of religion that early communities formed. The oldest known human structure is a temple after all, so in reality,  the story of humanity is also the story of religion itself.
Religion is in one way, a community former. 

It's not just religion that leads people to kill, it can be any belief or ideology. Nationalism was responsible for the deaths of 10's of millions in the 1900's. If you compare the number of deaths because of religion against the number of deaths because of nationalism you'll see a pretty large gap.
Actually, animism came before the worship of stars, it is the oldest known, although it's debatable as human history that has been primitively recorded only dates so far back.

The belief of Islam is that life is a test, that's why religion and those rules exist, to see if we can pass that test. I've always thought of us as mice in a maze and god as the observer who place cheese at the centre. Sure you can die in the maze but if you try harder enough, you'll get a bite of that cheese.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

noragrets said:


> i think you're confused, communism killed 10's of millions not nationalism


Communism was just left-wing nationalism. 
ever heard of "Mother Russia"?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

noragrets said:


> communism does not stand for any regional or nation specific aspirations, calling it nationalism is just plain wrong


Were the communists of Russia also not nationalists?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 6, 2017)

noragrets said:


> was hitler a communist?


You know you can be a lot of things at the same time right? 
You can be racist AND a sexist.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 7, 2017)

ned said:


> I honestly don't know how religion in any shape or form ever begot to become a thing,


The reason I believe is because I don't think we came by accident. Watch these debates & you'll get something of what i'm talking about.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 7, 2017)

noragrets said:


> was hitler a communist?


No, but he was a nationalist and existed in the 1900s


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## ned (Jun 7, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Religion came about at around the same time humans began to develop complex enough brains to understand it.* It's obvious that it was because of religion that early communities formed. The oldest known human structure is a temple after all, so in reality,  the story of humanity is also the story of religion itself.
> Religion is in one way, a community former. *
> 
> It's not just religion that leads people to kill, it can be any belief or ideology. Nationalism was responsible for the deaths of 10's of millions in the 1900's. If you compare the number of deaths because of religion against the number of deaths because of nationalism you'll see a pretty large gap.
> ...



Yeah because clearly we never had communities milanea before that in caves and huts,
the huts rotted away but evidence of the tools they made out of stone and animal teeth to make blades etc has been found,
hell they even managed to develop big enough brains to migrate in groups.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

noragrets said:


> i think you're confused, communism killed 10's of millions not nationalism


Japanese Nationalism killed 30mio Chinese (not sure if the 10mio of WW2 are included or not).
The German Empire attacked Soviet Union, causing 27mio Soviet deaths.

However, there were religious elements in both cases. I'm sure Hitler would have been a god-like figure by now if the Germans had won WW2.
And there was a Japanese general (forgot his name) who staged a Chinese attack on a railway so he could start a war (without telling the Japanese emperor about it). He was married to a woman who was part of a small sect that believed in the end times. It is believed she influenced him.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> The reason I believe is because I don't think we came by accident.


Believing in a first cause (which might be eternal if time and space came into being during the so called big bang) is actually logical.
But how do you come from a general idea of causality to a specific God who is a buddy of a desert dweller 1400 years? And who happens to speak and favor Arabic (the language of the eternal mother of the book, um-al-kitab), favors the Arab nation over all others (Sura 3:110), and helps out his buddy whenever he has some explaining to do (e.g. why his commands change depending on the situation). A heavenly buddy who wants the desert dweller to have more wives than anybody else, who wants him to marry his adopted son's wife, and who even tells the dinner guests to get the hell out afterwards because he (Muhammad) is too shy and annoyed by people staying too long.
Hope that doesn't offend you but I just don't get it. Your chance to convince me otherwise and make me a Muslim.


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## leon315 (Jun 7, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Ummmm again please dont spread this racist bullshit about my country....thats not true. It has lower crime due to a number of reasons.


Due to yakuza keeps Muslims under control??? How addicted are u with segas yakuza??? Lul


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## smile72 (Jun 7, 2017)

leon315 said:


> Due to yakuza keeps Muslims under control??? How addicted are u with segas yakuza??? Lul


Uh......yakuza...are more boring than you think actually. And why are you bringing this up? The game series is ok...but I think the name is awful.


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## leon315 (Jun 7, 2017)

smile72 said:


> Uh......yakuza...are more boring than you think actually. And why are you bringing this up? The game series is ok...but I think the name is awful.


This topic was falling down, and people are so serious talking serious menaces, then I saw ur avatar... People need joke.


----------



## smile72 (Jun 7, 2017)

leon315 said:


> This topic was falling down, and people are so serious talking serious menaces, then I saw ur avatar... People need joke.


Ok...yeah...moving on then.


----------



## Haider Raza (Jun 7, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> .....


Big Bang is a fact because scientists have witnessed that Universe is expanding & they have done study that it was a primary nebula which stored tremendous energy & exploded. Then universe came into existence that's why it is expanding. Scientists say there might a time it stops at one point & reverse the process. That we believers believe will be the las hour. One of the sign of the last hour (in our believe) is Sun will raise from the other direction. 

Expanding of universe, Big bang & universe stop at one point is already mentioned in the Holy Quran. It's not even possible for a man (Peace Be Upon Him) 1400years ago in a desert known this information. That's why we don't believe it's a man made thing. That's why we believe it came from a creator. There are many more information which you came to know recently is already mentioned there in the Quran. Quran is a books of signs. Also the reason why I believe in All knowing, All powerful etc. Creator is because i'm not blind to think this universe complex, designed universe came into existence from nothing. I'm not blind to think if I throw sand in the air & it will make sand castle for me. I'm not blind to think rocks had conscious & they started building themselves blindly & gave us this complex universe. I'm not blind to think my eyes,ears,nose,tongue & body funtion came into existence by accident. So yeah that's my reason. I don't think particles in the junk yard will give me a laptop on there own & universe is more complex then a laptop so yeah. I'm not blind. (No offence tho)

Do study because after death there's no chance of returning back from the judgment. (Peace Be On You)


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

You should be careful justifying the authority of the Quran by contemporary science. I also accept the Big Bang theory but what will you do if superior theory comes along? Will you then just ignore the verse or reinterpret it?

I assume you believe in the perfection of the Quran. So what do you do with the scientific nonsense in the Quran?
So you argue that the Quran mentions the big bang, the expanding of the universe and the eventual retraction of it. I don't recall a Ayat talking about the retraction. Would provide the verse, please?

Let's look at the verse that allegedly speaks of the big bang:
*"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?" (21:30)*
a) Note that the plural "heavens" actually refers to the 7 heavens (each of them containing different things, e.g. the prophets). I don't know any scientist who speaks of 7 heavens.
b) What does it mean that heaven and earth were separated? Couldn't Allah be more precise? After all, Arabic is his favorite language.
c) The separation of heaven(s) and earth is not a unique thing. Other creation myths believed the same thing, even way before Muhammad. 
Examples (from China alone):

"People say that when* Heaven and earth opened and unfolded*, humankind did not yet exist" [400 years before Islam]
"Before the Great Plainness came to be, there was *dark limpidity and mysterious quiescence, dim and dark*. No image of it can be formed. Its midst was void" (500 years before Islam)
"When *Heaven and Earth were yet unformed*, all was ascending and flying, diving and delving. Thus it was called the Grand Inception. The Grand Inception produced the Nebulous Void.* The Nebulous Void produced space-time, space-time produced the original qi*. A boundary [divided] the original _qi_. That which was pure and bright spread out to form Heaven" (700 years before Islam)
"*There was something featureless yet complete, born before heaven and earth; Silent – amorphous – it stood alone and unchanging. We may regard it as the mother of heaven and earth. Not knowing its name, I style it the "Way." The Way gave birth to unity, Unity gave birth to duality, Duality gave birth to trinity... *(1000 years before Islam)

OMG OMG how could the Chinese know about the singularity 3000 years ago?! They even talked of dark energy, wow!
Wow, you better study Chinese mythology if you don't want to go to hell.
And here you can see the expanding universe:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Ba-Gua_animated.gif

-> Do you see where I'm going with this? The separation of heaven and earth as well as their expansion has been an idea floating around way before Muhammad in different cultures. So why am I supposed to study Islam but not e.g. Chinese or Jewish sources?
Even the Bible speaks of expansion (Isaiah 42:5):

This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
    who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
    who gives breath to its people,
    and life to those who walk on it:

Furthermore, apologists translate in a way that makes the text seem more in line with scientific claims. E.g. the word "expanding" (in 51:47) is actually in a plural noun that could be translated "and we are surely its enrichers".


And finally the Quran even contradicts itself regarding this topic:
Did Allah first create the heavens and then the earth of the other way around? And how does that represent the big bang theory?!

*Surah 79:27-30 *
*Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it.*
He raised its ceiling and proportioned it.
And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness.
*And after that He spread the earth.*

*Sura 41:9-12*
*Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."*
And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask.
*Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."*
*And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.*


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## Joe88 (Jun 7, 2017)

These are now daily terror attacks, this time back in london
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ursery-worker-stabbed-three-women-London.html

I dont think these were "asian" woman, but it seems calling then asian is like the pc version of calling someone a muslim in the EU and controlling the narrative like we saw in the westminster bridge attack http://www.dailywire.com/news/14688/british-parliament-terror-attack-underscores-ben-shapiro


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 7, 2017)

ned said:


> Yeah because clearly we never had communities milanea before that in caves and huts,
> the huts rotted away but evidence of the tools they made out of stone and animal teeth to make blades etc has been found,
> hell they even managed to develop big enough brains to migrate in groups.



We never had large communities. Cities only formed AFTER religion.


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## Tigran (Jun 7, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> I dont think these were "asian" woman, but it seems calling then asian is like the pc version of calling someone a muslim in the EU and controlling the narrative like we saw in the westminster bridge attack http://www.dailywire.com/news/14688/british-parliament-terror-attack-underscores-ben-shapiro



Or,you don't understand that "Asia" actually ecompasses a LOT of area, so wether you think they are asian or not is actually irrelevant.


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 7, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Big Bang is a fact because scientists have witnessed that Universe is expanding & they have done study that it was a primary nebula which stored tremendous energy & exploded. Then universe came into existence that's why it is expanding. Scientists say there might a time it stops at one point & reverse the process. That we believers believe will be the las hour. One of the sign of the last hour (in our believe) is Sun will raise from the other direction.
> 
> Expanding of universe, Big bang & universe stop at one point is already mentioned in the Holy Quran. It's not even possible for a man (Peace Be Upon Him) 1400years ago in a desert known this information. That's why we don't believe it's a man made thing. That's why we believe it came from a creator. There are many more information which you came to know recently is already mentioned there in the Quran. Quran is a books of signs. Also the reason why I believe in All knowing, All powerful etc. Creator is because i'm not blind to think this universe complex, designed universe came into existence from nothing. I'm not blind to think if I throw sand in the air & it will make sand castle for me. I'm not blind to think rocks had conscious & they started building themselves blindly & gave us this complex universe. I'm not blind to think my eyes,ears,nose,tongue & body funtion came into existence by accident. So yeah that's my reason. I don't think particles in the junk yard will give me a laptop on there own & universe is more complex then a laptop so yeah. I'm not blind. (No offence tho)
> 
> Do study because after death there's no chance of returning back from the judgment. (Peace Be On You)



1) The expansion of Universe is accelerating, that's a known fact since the end of the 20th century. Currently the most accepted theory is the Big Freeze, ie in 10^100 years the only remaining things in the Universe will be lonely photons.
2) I suggest you to return to high school and study probabilities. Because the probability of you being born is exactly zero, and you're still here. Plus, there is something called the law of physics which led to the formation of atoms, molecules, stars and galaxies. That's elementary general knowledge. 
3) Your body becalme what it is after something called Darwin's Theory of Evolution, a long process across 3.8 billion years that led to current life forms. Evolution has already been proved, don't even try.
4) Quantum physics say that basically, at any moment, matter can get created from nothing. You should read Hawking.
So yeah sorry, but this kind of reasoning would be better heard from a 6-year-old child, because it's the equivalent of the retarded imam and his "demonstration" that Earth isn't rotating on itself.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 7, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Believing in a first cause (which might be eternal if time and space came into being during the so called big bang) is actually logical.
> But how do you come from a general idea of causality to a specific God who is a buddy of a desert dweller 1400 years? And who happens to speak and favor Arabic (the language of the eternal mother of the book, um-al-kitab), favors the Arab nation over all others (Sura 3:110), and helps out his buddy whenever he has some explaining to do (e.g. why his commands change depending on the situation). A heavenly buddy who wants the desert dweller to have more wives than anybody else, who wants him to marry his adopted son's wife, and who even tells the dinner guests to get the hell out afterwards because he (Muhammad) is too shy and annoyed by people staying too long.
> Hope that doesn't offend you but I just don't get it. Your chance to convince me otherwise and make me a Muslim.



Who are you talking to?

Anyway,

first to address 3:110:
"
*You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient."*

They are the best example for humanity. Not the best of humanity. So no, he doesn't favour them.

How does he favour the arabic language?

Muhammed needed to have so many wives because each wife was there to build ties between tribes and people. The reason Kings would marry foreign princesses was to build allies.

"and helps out his buddy whenever he has some explaining to do (e.g. why his commands change depending on the situation)."
"the dinner guests to get the hell out afterwards because he (Muhammad) is too shy and annoyed by people staying too long."

explain.

Also, who exactly are you talking to?


--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Surah 79:27-30 *
> *Are you a more difficult creation or is the heaven? Allah constructed it.*
> He raised its ceiling and proportioned it.
> And He darkened its night and extracted its brightness.
> ...



First thing, who the hell are you talking to?

Second thing, one is mentioning space and the other is mentioning the seven heavens of Islam.
So he created heaven before the Earth.
here's a premise explaining this better than I:
1. The creation of the earth preceded the formation of the heavens into seven layers
2. The creation of the heavens preceded the 'spreading' of the earth.

And a third point is logically concluded from the above:

3. The creation of the heavens preceded their formation into seven layers


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

@TheDarkGreninja: I was to Haider Raza but of course I'm also interested in why you believe Islam is true.

To quickly respond to your points:
-Isn't the Quran (even it's heavenly version) written in Arabic? What a coincidence that God calls the people from which Islam emerged the best of people. Just as the Jewish religion says the Jews are "the chosen people". So much creativity. If I were to invent a religion I surely wouln't make God speak German make him laud the German people.
-Yes, kings often had many wives. But alliances was only part of the reason. Men like to f*ck many women. And women prefer powerful men. Look at nature.
Do you think the bond between Abu Bakr and Muhammad would have been any weaker if he hadn't offered the vagina of his young daughter?
-And why is the number of wives for Muhammad in the Quran anyways? It's full of situational stuff. Whenever people link terrorism and Quran, you say warfare was only for that context. Then why even include random stuff like that in the Quran? Couldn't Allah make Muhammad differentiate between 2 books: the situational stuff and the eternal wisdom of God or sth like that. Allah is all-knowing. He knows that currently innocent people (including children) die by terrorists on a weekly basis BECAUSE OF MISINTERPRETATION. Then why isn't the Quran clearer? Even though it claims to be it is anything but clear. It doesn't even have an order...
-I was referring to Surah 33:53.
"*Believers, enter not the houses of the Prophet without his permission,95nor wait for a meal to be prepared; instead enter when you are invited to eat,96 and when you have had the meal, disperse. Do not linger in idle talk.97 That is hurtful to the Prophet but he does not express it out of shyness; but Allah is not ashamed of speaking out the Truth. And if you were to ask the wives of the Prophet for something, ask from behind a curtain. That is more apt for the cleanness of your hearts and theirs.98 It is not lawful for you to cause hurt to Allah's Messenger,99 nor to ever marry his wives after him.100 Surely that would be an enormous sin in Allah's sight."*
-> One of the strongest evidence that the Quran is man-made. It's so funny, why is this in the heavenly book?!
"God doesn't want you to stare at my bitches" "God wants you to go home" XD


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 7, 2017)

A better question would be: why would all the ultimate truth be in a random book from years ago?


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 7, 2017)

Joe88 said:


> These are now daily terror attacks, this time back in london
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ursery-worker-stabbed-three-women-London.html
> 
> I dont think these were "asian" woman, but it seems calling then asian is like the pc version of calling someone a muslim in the EU and controlling the narrative like we saw in the westminster bridge attack http://www.dailywire.com/news/14688/british-parliament-terror-attack-underscores-ben-shapiro


I have SERIOUS doubts that this one is actually related to Islam; that looks like a group of shitheads looked at the news, thought it was funny, got together and attacked a random unsuspecting woman. There seems to be no planning or logic behind it


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

Or maybe it was revenge. Doesn't seem like a terror attack. She was badly hurt but I think they could have easily killed her and others (which they didn't).

The one in Kabul with 150 dead people (and many more injured) was a terror attack, however.
Also the double attack in Tehran today.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 7, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So you argue that the Quran mentions the big bang, the expanding of the universe and the eventual retraction of it. I don't recall a Ayat talking about the retraction. Would provide the verse, please?


*Quran 36:38 *
*And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.*

*(Tirmidhi, Fitan, 22)*
*“I entered the mosque while the sun was setting. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) was sitting. He said to me, “O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun is going?” I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger knows’. He said, ‘It is going in order to take permission for prostration, and it is given permission. One day, it will be commanded, ‘Rise from here’ and it will rise in the place where it sets." Then, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) read this verse: ‘And the Sun runs his course for a period determined for him.’(Ya Seen, 36:38).”*



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Let's look at the verse that allegedly speaks of the big bang:
> *"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?" (21:30)*
> a) Note that the plural *"heavens" actually refers to the 7 heavens (each of them containing different things, e.g. the prophets)*. I don't know any scientist who speaks of 7 heavens.
> b) What does it mean that heaven and earth were separated? Couldn't Allah be more precise? After all, *Arabic is his favorite language.*
> c) The separation of heaven(s) and earth is not a unique thing. Other creation myths believed the same thing, even way before Muhammad.


 
*They will surely get it. Heavens are kinda layers each containing billion, trillions of galaxies. We don't know the exact number but yeah in a hadith it explains it takes 500years to go to secong heaven. Every layer takes 500years. At what speed? We don't know only Allah knows. Surely we are not the only creation. There are more of course. While Christians don't believe that they think Jesus a Man was God so there is no other creation then mankind. There might be more but we are limited to our knowledge to just our star. Our earthly life is limited. Surely the day of judgment will come & people who done wrong will be punishment depending on there own doings. As you might know why we are here. Angels don't have free will & we have free will etc. We came here for a period of time. After death there will be only rewards & punishments. Note God won't give reward to the people who ignored him & done wrong. Sorry don't get emotional by it if you want to be blind till your death.*

*Also who told you Arabic is Allah's favorite language?*
*
Quran Chapter 16 Verse 36
To every nation We sent a Messenger who told its people, "Worship God and stay away from satan." Some of them were guided by God and others were doomed to go astray. Travel through the land and see how terrible was the end for those who rejected the truth!*

*So they 124000 Prophets all spoke arabic? Every nation spoke arabic?*

*Did these prophets also spoke language?*
*Harun (Aaron)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Aadam (Adam)
Da'ud (David)
Ilias (Elijah)
Alyasa (Elisha)
Idris (Enoch)
Dhul-kifi (Ezekiel)
Hud (Eber)
Is'haq (Isaac)
Isma'il (Ishmael)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Isa (Jesus)
Ayyub (Job)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Younis (Johah)
Lut (Lot)
Nuh (Noah)
Musa (Moses)
Saleh (Salah)
Sulaiman (Solomon)
Zakariyyah (Zechariah)
*
*What are you implying?*

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



StarTrekVoyager said:


> *Evolution has already been proved*


Does evolution prove rocks had conscious & they built themselves soo complex in blind process from nothing & how did they came into existence from nothing? No it does not prove that it just shows how you evolved from ape. So yeah go meet your ape ancestors in the zoo or stay there.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 7, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> What a coincidence that God calls the people from which Islam emerged the best of people.



You've taken it out of context, they are the best example of people who have truly followed the book.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Do you think the bond between Abu Bakr and Muhammad would have been any weaker if he hadn't offered the vagina of his young daughter?



And what evidence do you have to suggest the bond wouldn't have crumbled if not for that? 



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Yes, kings often had many wives. But alliances was only part of the reason. Men like to f*ck many women. And women prefer powerful men. Look at nature.



No offence, but that's opinionated horse shit. If you can't prove it then you might as well be wrong.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> you say warfare was only for that context. Then why even include random stuff like that in the Quran? Couldn't Allah make Muhammad differentiate between 2 books: the situational stuff and the eternal wisdom of God or sth like that



Because that situational stuff can be used as guides for the future. Because things like people wanting to drive you out of your country is completely within the realm of reason.
The context of war can be applied in the future. What I'm saying is that the context ISIS uses is objectively wrong.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Allah is all-knowing. He knows that currently innocent people (including children) die by terrorists on a weekly basis BECAUSE OF MISINTERPRETATION. Then why isn't the Quran clearer?



Are you all-knowing, though? To say to me that because god is all-knowing he shouldn't let people die shows a level of ignorance of Islam. Simply put, since god is all-knowing he has a reason for letting them die. You're questioning his actions without knowing the reason, therefore making your argument a logical fallacy. An argument out of ignorance to be exact.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> One of the strongest evidence that the Quran is man-made. It's so funny, why is this in the heavenly book?!



Because the prophet is the literal leader of the Islamic world. So those rule's were set out to make sure Muslims respected that leader.
To say that it's man made because "God didnt let them marry his wives" is just dumb. Muslims were not allowed to marry them as they are of high respect and honour in Islam. After all they were considered the mothers of all the believers. 
And wouldn't be weird to marry your mother? Even if spiritually.

*The Prophet is closer to the believers than their ownselves, and his wives are their (believers’) mothers (as regards respect and marriage)…” (Quran 33:6) *


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Quran 36:38
> And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
> 
> (Tirmidhi, Fitan, 22)
> “I entered the mosque while the sun was setting. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) was sitting. He said to me, “O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun is going?” I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger knows’. He said, ‘It is going in order to take permission for prostration, and it is given permission. One day, it will be commanded, ‘Rise from here’ and it will rise in the place where it sets." Then, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) read this verse: ‘And the Sun runs his course for a period determined for him.’(Ya Seen, 36:38).”



And how does that show that the universe will retract once it reaches its maximum expansion? The author of the Quran doesn't even know that the sun is not orbiting the earth, s. Sura 36:40

*"It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."*



You didn't address any other points regarding the bing bang theory, the Quran and other myths about the creation. So why don't you believe in Chinese creation myths? They are older and sound more sophisticated.
I showed you how the Quran contradicted itself in terms of what was created first (earth or heavens)




Haider Raza said:


> Also who told you Arabic is Allah's favorite language?


Christians never tell people to learn ancient Greek and Hebrew if they want to understand the Bible. The Quran, even the heavenly one, is written in Arabic.




Haider Raza said:


> So they 124000 Prophets all spoke arabic? Every nation spoke arabic?



This number is laughable. How come basically all known prophets in the Quran were Jews?
The Quran implies that even Alexander the Great was a monotheist, which is wrong.

BTW you are trying to mock atheists by asking whether stones have a conscience. Actually, in Islam they do. XD 
In the end times the will start speaking ("Oh slave of Allah come and kill the Jew hiding behind me").
Even the son "asks for permission". (see the Quranic verse you quoted)


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## StarTrekVoyager (Jun 7, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Does evolution prove rocks had conscious & they built themselves soo complex in blind process from nothing & how did they came into existence from nothing? No it does not prove that it just shows how you evolved from ape. So yeah go meet your ape ancestors in the zoo or stay there.


Nope, it proves how current species evolved from random microscopic jelly spheres. The latter that formed from long amino-acid chains and proteins. The latter which formed from chemical reactions within organic molecules. The latter which were formed from elementary organic compounds. The latter which were brought to Earth via meteorites and comets. The latter being... ROCKS. Rekt.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Christians never tell people to learn ancient Greek and Hebrew if they want to understand the Bible. The Quran, even the heavenly one, is written in Arabic.


Actually, until Gutenberg, people had to learn latin or greek to read the bible, since there were almost no traductions.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 7, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> And how does that show that the universe will retract once it reaches its maximum expansion? The author of the Quran doesn't even know that the sun is not orbiting the earth, s. Sura 36:40
> 
> *"It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."*



*(Tirmidhi, Fitan, 22)
“I entered the mosque while the sun was setting. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) was sitting. He said to me, “O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun is going?” I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger knows’. He said, ‘It is going in order to take permission for prostration, and it is given permission. One day, it will be commanded, ‘Rise from here’ and it will rise in the place where it sets." Then, the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) read this verse: ‘And the Sun runs his course for a period determined for him.’(Ya Seen, 36:38).”*

*Sun raise from where it sets. What does this shows? Use your logic if yo have.*



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You didn't address any other points regarding the bing bang theory, the Quran and other myths about the creation. So why don't you believe in Chinese creation myths?


*I didn't pointed that because I will come with lots of questions which will be a big debate. So I don't have time for that. I point this out shortly. As Allah said he sent messengers to every nation so that mean some prophets might have told to people. There info are lost no one knows what happened to the prophets because we don't have proof. Speaking of proof how do you know these are sayings of Chinese ancient text & it was 3000years old? Where are the references of book? Where are it's chain of narrations? meaning how it was persevered by people. We have Quran & Hadith. We have names of people who protected the text by memorizing it & storing it. Where are the names of chinese people who saved the text by centuries? It might be a recent written thing if it doesn't have people names & who saved it right? Now lets not go deep because I don't have time because I have exams. Just provide evidence & references.*



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Christians never tell people to learn ancient Greek and Hebrew if they want to understand the Bible.* The Quran, even the heavenly one, is written in Arabic.


*That's why they made Jesus a God while Jesus himself never claimed such thing. John, Luke, Paul, Matthew etc. We don't know who these guys were. Some of them never met Jesus in person. So people believe these guys more then Jesus & they claim they love jesus while they reject the teachings of jesus.

Jesus Said 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.*

*Matthew 7:21-23*
*21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’*

*Now Does this sound like Jesus claiming himself God?*

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



StarTrekVoyager said:


> Nope, it proves how current species evolved from random microscopic jelly spheres. The latter that formed from long amino-acid chains and proteins. The latter which formed from chemical reactions within organic molecules. The latter which were formed from elementary organic compounds. The latter which were brought to Earth via meteorites and comets. The latter being... ROCKS. Rekt.


Have they shown you what they spoke? Or are you blindly saying yeah yeah it's true (the end)? Have you eye witnessed it? Now come to the basics my question was not this my question was. Does they know where these particles came from out of nowhere & started building them blindly & then Big bang happened & blind process made every thing so perfect. As I gave an example earlier can a junk yard in a million years make a laptop blindly from particles a laptop which has latest nvidia graphic card in it? What are you implying? As you can see this universe is more complex then a laptop. So how did it made itself so perfect from nothingness?


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## osaka35 (Jun 7, 2017)

Religions are dumb. The religious are unfortunately being duped. It's okay, we all make mistakes. The problem is when you double down on your mistake and hurt innocent people in its name. At that point you move from being duped to being reprehensible evil.


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## HamBone41801 (Jun 7, 2017)

osaka35 said:


> Religions are dumb. The religious are unfortunately being duped. It's okay, we all make mistakes. The problem is when you double down on your mistake and hurt innocent people in its name. At that point you move from being duped to being reprehensible evil.


aye. as one of those duped, i cant stand most people like me, because they just don't care if they hurt other people like that.


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## Lucifer666 (Jun 7, 2017)

Bottomline is if anyone thinks banning/restricting the entry of Muslims is in any way a good idea (we have a common enemy! Muslims hate ISIS too! and war! Please help!) then you need a bit of a reality check.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Actually, until Gutenberg, people had to learn latin or greek to read the bible, since there were almost no traductions.


For political reasons: To not give power to the people. But that's different from claiming the eternal Word of God in heaven is written in Arabic. Christians never claimed the same for the Greek/Hebrew language.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 7, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Sun raise from where it sets. What does this shows? Use your logic if yo have.


LOL. I'm speechless. Ok, if u think the sun will rise in the west once the universe retracts, that's your business. But that's not the big bang theory.



Haider Raza said:


> I didn't pointed that because I will come with lots of questions which will be a big debate.


The truth is you want to protect your soul from hellfire by not even thinking of the many things that could easily shake up your faith if you allowed critical thinking. I've met many Christians and Muslims like that. It's like putting the fingers in one's ears and singing lalala.

I showed you the examples of wrong scientific claims in the Quran. It even claims the sun has a set orbit (I gave the reference) and that Alexander the Great (the horned one) found the place where the sun sets. Anyway let's ignore the problematic passages and hype up the ones that can be interpreted in a way that is in line with contemporary science. So which then is superior? Science or the Quran?



Haider Raza said:


> Speaking of proof how do you know these are sayings of Chinese ancient text & it was 3000years old? Where are the references of book? Where are it's chain of narrations? meaning how it was persevered by people. We have Quran & Hadith. We have names of people who protected the text by memorizing it & storing it. Where are the names of chinese people who saved the text by centuries? It might be a recent written thing if it doesn't have people names & who saved it right? Now lets not go deep because I don't have time because I have exams. Just provide evidence & references.


OH MY GOD. The level of your ignorance is incredible. The Chinese civilization including scriptual tradition is one of the oldest in the world. The writing is much much older than Arabic. 
You can look up the references regarding Chinese creation myths here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_creation_myth
I also gave you a quote from the Old Testament regarding the expansion (which is also older than the Quran).

Furthermore, the (A)hadith are a joke. I only play along as these are your sources. From a historical point of view they can't be taken seriously. Just ask any historian (who hasn't been killed yet for questioning the history of Muhammad).



Haider Raza said:


> That's why they made Jesus a God while Jesus himself never claimed such thing. John, Luke, Paul, Matthew etc. We don't know who these guys were. Some of them never met Jesus in person. So people believe these guys more then Jesus & they claim they love jesus while they reject the teachings of jesus.


Why do you go off-topic? I'm not defending the New Testament.
But if you so choose: From a historical point of view we know much more about Paul than Muhammad. Historians have reviewed his letters extensively. We know which letters are fake, when he wrote the authentic ones, where he wrote them, why he wrote them. We know the routes he took in the 50s and 60s and where he was at the end of his life (in Rome, probably executed).
Muhammad is only mentioned a few times in the Quran. From a historical point of view we basically know nothing about him. His biographies and hadith are so far removed from his life (more than a hundred years at least; and we don't even have Ibn Ishaq's biography) that Christians wouldn't even had considered it authentic (the gospel of John is 70-80 year removed from Jesus's death and barely made it into the New Testament).
*Just consider this: The Quran barely mentioned Muhammad, yet, hundreds of years later we know every tiny detail about him. Isn't that weird? Stories develop over time. The oldest biography of Jesus (Mark, 40 years removed from Jesus' death) doesn't mentioned his childhood, then Matthew and Luke come along and we get the Christmas story. More than 100 after Luke/Matthew we suddenly know that Jesus could speak as a Baby and that he breathed life into a clay bird. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? THIS STORY IS CONFIRMED IN THE QURAN. Think about that.*





Haider Raza said:


> Jesus Said 5:30
> By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
> 
> Matthew 7:21-23
> 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’





Haider Raza said:


> Now Does this sound like Jesus claiming himself God?


Do I claim that Jesus claimed to be God?! Not even all Christians teach/taught that. E.g. the Arians or Jehova's witnesses.
Ironically you just quoted a text in which Jesus says that some will correctly call him "Lord" and that he speaks of his "Father", therefore directly contradicting the Quran which says Allah is the Father to nobody (not in any sense).
Pls think before you rape the Quran or New Testament.

Regarding Jesus saying he can't do anything on his own: That's what Christians actually teach. It's called Trinity. But I doubt you would understand it (even though I personally reject all goodnight stories, be it Islamic, Christians or whatever). The writer of the Quran didn't understand the trinity either, so I better not even try.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I'm speechless. Ok, if u think the sun will rise in the west once the universe retracts, that's your business. *But that's not the big bang theory.*


*Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again.*
*Within the sound of silence *



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The truth is you want to protect your soul from hellfire by not even thinking of the *many things that could easily shake up your faith if you allowed critical thinking*. I've met many Christians and Muslims like that. *It's like putting the fingers in one's ears and singing lalala.*


Ok explain how you came so perfect from nothing. It's same thing I explained many time earlier that you're claiming. If we take a place. A junk yard take away from people & put some particle in it & some million years later. There will be a laptop in it created by particles in it on there own. So much perfect laptop which has 3 gtx1080 which work on 10watt LOL! You guys are mad genius. It's pure blind believe.  

*It's like putting the fingers in one's ears and singing lalala.*
You're doing the same thing with the reality that you don't want to accept.




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I showed you the examples of wrong scientific claims in the Quran. It even claims the sun has a set orbit (I gave the reference) and that Alexander the Great (the horned one) found the place where the sun sets. Anyway let's ignore the problematic passages and hype up the ones that can be interpreted in a way that is in line with contemporary science. So which then is superior? Science or the Quran?


-Snip-




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *OH MY GOD. The level of your ignorance is incredible*. The Chinese civilization including scriptual tradition is one of the oldest in the world. The writing is much much older than Arabic.
> You can look up the references regarding *Chinese creation myths here:* *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_creation_myth*
> I also gave you a quote from the Old Testament regarding the expansion (which is also older than the Quran).
> 
> Furthermore, the (A)hadith are a joke. I only play along as these are your sources. From a historical point of view they can't be taken seriously. Just ask any historian (who hasn't been killed yet for questioning the history of Muhammad).


So you have God? I thought you didn't believed in God? I have ignorance? o-o

No references or chain narrations in Chinese myths just *MYTHS* i guess. 





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Why do you go off-topic?* *I'm not defending the New Testament.*
> But if you so choose: From a historical point of view we know much more about Paul than Muhammad. Historians have reviewed his letters extensively. We know which letters are fake, when he wrote the authentic ones, where he wrote them, why he wrote them. We know the routes he took in the 50s and 60s and where he was at the end of his life (in Rome, probably executed).
> *Muhammad is only mentioned a few times in the Quran. From a historical point of view we basically know nothing about him. His biographies and hadith are so far removed from his life* (more than a hundred years at least; and we don't even have Ibn Ishaq's biography) that Christians wouldn't even had considered it authentic (the gospel of John is 70-80 year removed from Jesus's death and barely made it into the New Testament).





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Just consider this: The Quran barely mentioned Muhammad, yet, hundreds of years later we know every tiny detail about him. Isn't that weird? Stories develop over time. The oldest biography of Jesus (Mark, 40 years removed from Jesus' death) doesn't mentioned his childhood, then Matthew and Luke come along and we get the Christmas story. More than 100 after Luke/Matthew we suddenly know that Jesus could speak as a Baby and that he breathed life into a clay bird. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? THIS STORY IS CONFIRMED IN THE QURAN. Think about that.*


Hmmmmmmm you sound suspicious? Oh undercover Christian spotted!! 

The history of Islam Hadiths eg. Sahih Muslim/Bukhari (Which you ignore because of your arrogance) have chains of narrations with proof. Who are paul, luke, matthew & others. Read there history & you'll know how they corrupted the Bible bit by bit. Thank God they saved some of it. In future Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) sayings might be also gone from the Bible.

Also grow up kid. What are you talking about Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) name was spoken less. I doesn't matter. Do you fraudulent preaching somewhere else. LOL!







UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Do I claim that Jesus claimed to be God?!* Not even all Christians teach/taught that. E.g. the Arians or Jehova's witnesses.
> *Ironically you just quoted a text in which Jesus says that some will correctly call him "Lord" and that he speaks of his "Father", therefore directly contradicting the Quran which says Allah is the Father to nobody (not in any sense).*
> *Pls think before you rape the Quran or New Testament.*
> 
> ...


Did I said you claimed? Why are you pointing something which I never said?


We Muslims & some christians know Bible is corrupted. Allah also speaks about it & Allah says in the Quran O people of the book (Jews/Christians etc.) come to  the common terms. So what matches is the truth what doesn't we see it as man written thing just like the hand made idols. So I explained you something which you didn't know of course you're not educated. So yeah move on & don't say something which you don't know. Don't waste my time just study hard.

So jesus saying I can't do nothing myself. This quote makes it a part of trinity? Who told you that? Trinity is like Father/Son/Holy Spirit Co-Equal. So Jesus/ Holyspirit also have the same power. So Jesus saying I can't do nothing by myself breaks trinity concept.

LOL! Look at yourself just air claims you have no evidence. Pretending like you know something!


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## barak06 (Jun 8, 2017)

deinonychus71 said:


> Well I'm not going to say something if I don't believe it to be right, otherwise what's the point of debating?
> What is this "everytime" you're talking about? I could basically say the same thing to you, you call the meme "everytime" someone calls you out for being fascist. I don't think that you realize that there ARE legitimate cases where it can be mentioned.
> 
> Answering the french stuff:
> ...



To put an end to your silly arguments :
“C’est un fait que tous les musulmans ne sont pas des terroristes, mais il est très douloureux à dire que presque tous les terroristes sont des musulmans” Abudulhrahan al-Rashed général Manager Al Arabiya News
So now just convert yourself to islam  (if it.s not already done) and blow yourself  or kill some mecreants like me, so we don't ear about you're bullshits  anymore


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## DarthDub (Jun 8, 2017)

I wonder if it has anything to do with muslim refugees. People need to take a chill pill. Bunch of hotheads.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

Haider Raza: I'm speechless. Thank you for displaying a typical Muslim fundamentalist. Everyone can judge our conversation for himself/herself.
I know it's heartbreaking, but the Quran's creation myths are also myths. You literally "snip" away criticism of it by not even engaging in it. Thanks for proving my point.
You have no idea of the historical method or critical thinking. The only thing that remains for me is to hope that you think you go to paradise for your good deeds, otherwise people's lives might be in danger.



To prove my point that neither you nor Muhammad (or whoever wrote the Quran) didn't understand the trinity I will explain it to you and how Jesus saying "On my own I can do nothing" confirms the trinity, not contradicts it. Disclaimer: I don't believe in it but I have studied it as I have studied Muslim sources.

In polytheism (both in Muhammad's time in Arabia and in the ancient Roman/Greek theology) gods fight with it other, have children with each other (and with humans) and so on. E.g. Allah had daughters (Muhammad at one point even confirmed it in oder to gain favor with polytheists; later claimed Satan told him to say that -> known as the Satanic Verses).
The Christian concept of God/Trinity is that he has no beginning (unlike creation). He creates things by his word (similar to Islam). His words exist/come forth from him eternally. So God (Father, 1st person of the Trinity) is the cause of the Word of God (2nd person of the trinity) with which he created the universe.
These are not two Gods. The 2nd person of the trinity can do nothing on his own. It's like your arm can't do anything without your brain (or to stay with the analogy: your words can do nothing without your mind). Jesus is materialized Word of God ("became flesh") so Jesus claiming to be powerless without the Father confirms the trinity.

Muhammad (or the author of the Quran) didn't understand this concept. Nowhere is it found in the Quran. The only two places (I can look up the references but I know the words by heart) is:
-Allah asking Jesus whether he told him to worship him (Jesus) and his mother as Gods next to Allah -> Mainstream Christians sects never taught this.
-Allah is not the third of three (Gods?) -> Christians never taught it either, The God/Father is the first of three persons within the same essence/being

So there you have it, the Quran was ignorant of pretty much everything (including which parts of Christian/Jewish stories were primary/early and which were late/secondary, therefore it contains parts of the Talmud - made by Humans even according to Jews - and very late Christian gospels).
So you being ignorant fits perfectly.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Haider Raza: I'm speechless. *Thank you for displaying a typical Muslim fundamentalist. Everyone can judge our conversation for himself/herself.
> I know it's heartbreaking, but the Quran's creation myths are also myths. You literally "snip" away criticism of it by not even engaging in it. Thanks for proving my point.
> You have no idea of the historical method or critical thinking.*


Yeah I know that everyone can see how ignorant you are.

Quran has evidence of being 1400years old by chains of narrations (Hadiths etc.). Where is the evidence of chineses myths being 3000years old? I asked you this earlier & you ignored like a ignorant fool. I asked where is the references of the text. Who brought it & where is evidence to prove it's 3000years old. You never gave this answer & you're talking like you won something which you never did in real life.




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *To prove my point that neither you nor Muhammad (or whoever wrote the Quran) didn't understand the trinity* I will explain it to you and how *Jesus saying "On my own I can do nothing" confirms the trinity, not contradicts it. Disclaimer: I don't believe in it but I have studied it as I have studied Muslim sources.*
> 
> In polytheism (both in Muhammad's time in Arabia and in the ancient Roman/Greek theology) gods fight with it other, have children with each other (and with humans) and so on. E.g. Allah had daughters (Muhammad at one point even confirmed it in oder to gain favor with polytheists; later claimed Satan told him to say that -> known as the Satanic Verses).


Yeah like you know best. You just make air claims no evidence no nothing just your emotional opinions.

Explain how it makes trinity. As I know what you're talking about is not trinity. That's not what christians preach or what I red but yeah explain your trinity. As I heard trinity Father/Son/HolySpirit are Co-Equal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity





















https://youtu.be/2_owxCTpgjo

There are many more example everyone have there own trinity. Look how ignorant & arrogant these fools are like you claiming like they know something about Quran & you ignore hadiths the history of islam to make your blind christianity claims.




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The Christian concept of God/Trinity is that he has no beginning (unlike creation). He creates things by his word (similar to Islam). His words exist/come forth from him eternally. So God (Father, 1st person of the Trinity) is the cause of the Word of God (2nd person of the trinity) with which he created the universe.
> These are not two Gods. The 2nd person of the trinity can do nothing on his own. It's like your arm can't do anything without your brain (or to stay with the analogy: your words can do nothing without your mind). Jesus is materialized Word of God ("became flesh") so Jesus claiming to be powerless without the Father confirms the trinity.


-SNIP- Undercover christian alert. Don't claim something that you don't know of. I know how you guys twist to make your own opinions to be fed. I look for evidence not your blind opinions.




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Muhammad (or the author of the Quran) didn't understand this concept.* Nowhere is it found in the Quran. The only two places (I can look up the references but I know the words by heart) is:
> -Allah asking Jesus whether he told him to worship him (Jesus) and his mother as Gods next to Allah -> Mainstream Christians sects never taught this.
> -*Allah is not the third of three (Gods?)* -> Christians never taught it either, The God/Father is the first of three persons within the same essence/being
> 
> ...


That's you thinking that's your blind believe. As I said wake up from your dream world. Don't pretend like you know something while you don't know sh-t.

If you known arabic third of three means 1/3. So again learn arabic to understand quran & to make your claims. 

https://youtu.be/MdlpSuhf2Fc

https://youtu.be/HKtHJddu4-4


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## Lucifer666 (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -snip-


Dude I honestly understand your frustrations with religion, they all have a tendency to divert peoples' line of thinking in a similar manner, but I don't think the best display for yourself is to yell at believers for believing.

I'm Muslim born and raised but non practising nowadays (I don't really believe, at all) and the approach I've been taking since is just letting it go. Just leave it be and don't get mad when others don't, because starting shit that way could also be a part of the problem.  Speaking as an insider from that community


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

Lucifer666 said:


> ...


He just pretends like he knows something. While he doesn't have clue like what he knows. Just emotional air claims he make nothing else. He said God doesn't exist now he believes Jesus is God. I know he's a undercover christian pretending to be atheist. He's a fraud for sure.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> He just pretends like he knows something. While he doesn't have clue like what he knows. Just emotional air claims he make nothing else. He said God doesn't exist now he believes Jesus is God. I know he's a undercover christian pretending to be atheist. He's a fraud for sure.


Are you insane? I can talk about what Taoism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism teaches without adhering to any of these religions.
Do I become a Muslim if I explain Tawhid?

Now for the love of God/Allah turn your brain on for just a minute and explain this: How did the following man-made stories end up in the god-made Quran?

1) Jesus/Isa making clay birds and breathing life into them:
Infancy Gospel of Thomas ("*Scholars generally agree on a date in the mid- to late-2nd century A.D*"): *"Breathes life into birds fashioned from clay" *
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas#Dating

2) Syriac Infancy Gospel (*this Gospel is thought to have originated from Syriac sources dating back to the fifth or sixth century*)
"One parallel story between an Infancy Gospel and the Quran is found in the Arabic Gospel Of The Infancy Of The Savior and Surah 19:29-34, where the story of *Jesus speaking as a baby in the cradle* in narrated."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Infancy_Gospel#Dating

3) Quran borrows from the Talmud (more exact: Sanhedrin 37).
"The entire Talmud consists of 63 tractates, and in standard print is over 6,200 pages long. It is written in Tannaitic Hebrew and Jewish Babylonian Aramaic and *contains the teachings and opinions of thousands of rabbis*"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud

Talmud (written by Rabbis!):
*For this reason was man created alone, to teach thee that whosoever destroys a single soul of israel, scripture imputes to him as though he had destroyed a complete world; and whosoever preserves a single soul of israel, scripture ascribes to him as though he had preserved a complete world.*

Quran:
“Because of this, we decreed* for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people*.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

Lucifer666 said:


> Dude I honestly understand your frustrations with religion, they all have a tendency to divert peoples' line of thinking in a similar manner, but I don't think the best display for yourself is to yell at believers for believing.
> 
> I'm Muslim born and raised but non practising nowadays (I don't really believe, at all) and the approach I've been taking since is just letting it go. Just leave it be and don't get mad when others don't, because starting shit that way could also be a part of the problem.  Speaking as an insider from that community


I would disagree. I think shielding Islam from criticism allows Muslim apologists to get away with everything (even stupid claims like the Quran's scientific miralces), thereby keeping rational Muslims (of which there are many) within Islam and even converting others.

The virgin birth is not part of the earliest Christian sources (Paul letters: 20 years after Jesus' death; Mark: 40 years after Jesus death). Then Luke and Matthew mention it (50 years after his death) to emphasize the alleged divinity of Jesus. Then 150 years after Jesus' death somebody claims Jesus was not only born of a virgin but even performed miracles as a small child like breathing life into clay birds. This story ends up in the Quran and Muslims claim that Paul corrupted the story of Jesus but they confirm the bullshit stories virgin birth and the clay birds.
The only thing we know for sure about Jesus is that he was crucified. All historians agree on that (but the Quran denies it).
This needs to be taught to as many Muslims as possible. It breaks the Quran's alleged perfection and divine source.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *Are you insane? I can talk about what Taoism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism teaches without adhering to any of these religions.*
> Do I become a Muslim if I explain Tawhid?


Yeah exactly what I was telling just air claims. You know nothing about any of religion. You just know how to ignore & be a part of atheist cult/christianity.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Now for the love of God/Allah turn your brain on for just a minute and explain this: How did the following man-made stories end up in the god-made Quran?
> 
> 1) Jesus/Isa making clay birds and breathing life into them:
> Infancy Gospel of Thomas ("*Scholars generally agree on a date in the mid- to late-2nd century A.D*"): *"Breathes life into birds fashioned from clay" *
> ...


People have took many wrong meaning of the scriptures before that's what Quran repeat & explains in clear  word. Like people made Jesus a god. Some also believe even Jesus never claimed to be he did miracles. Many prophets did miracles are they gods aswell? Some claim Jesus was born out of virgin Mary (Peace Be Upon Them) so that means jesus is God. Adam & Eve (Peace Be Upon Them) was born without parents does that means they are Gods aswell? These are just air claims which you support aswell. Yes I believe messengers did miracles but they did it through God not they had power of God but because God done those because God has power to control creation because he made it. Jesus himself said I can do nothing by myself. So who's doing the stuff? Isn't it father? Exactly my point.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also in the Bible it is said. He who believes in God is a Son of God. That doesn't mean we all are gods. These story of jesus being real son of god are just claims by uneducated people. They take stuff out of context like what you do to promote your agenda.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

Pls don't quote me if you don't refer to my argument.
*Explain to us how the 3 stories I mentioned ended up in the Quran even though they are clearly man-made.*

Why do you act as if I promote the divinity of Jesus?! ?! ?! ?! ?!
I only explained how Muhammad didn't understand the trinity (neither do you). That doesn't make me a Christian.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Explain to us how the 3 stories I mentioned ended up in the Quran even though they are clearly man-made.


You're just wasting my time. Read my last comment & you'll know.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

Where? I can't see a response to it.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 8, 2017)

@UltraDolphinRevolution You have taken upon a task I considered impossible for humankind, that is trying to have a civilized discussion with a certain specific gbatemp user and trying to have a conversation at it.
Sorry for my lack of hope in this regards, but I still consider you will not be able to reach that goal, it may be a rightful dignified goal, but one that I consider it is not possible to reach.
Perhaps I am too much of a bad person that would (actually did) use the ignore button in such cases, but in the past it was just too much of a pain for nothing, I think you also are starting to put too much work into something that will end up being fruitless.
I think there is a strong message here, and it is that a conversation is not wanted, I don't know what you can do with that, but realize you are doing something as fruitful as talking to a wall.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> .....


This article sheds light on the similarities between some of the verses mentioned in the Quran and related messages in the Bible. It should be noted that the verses below are only some of the many where such parallels can be made between the two scriptures.

*About the Scriptures mentioned in the Quran*
Quran mentions that Allah (God) revealed the following scriptures / books to various nations. They are as follows:


_*The scripture of Abraham: “*…Then We had already given the family of Ibrahim (Abraham) the Book (Scripture) and Al-Hikmah (As-Sunnah – Divine Revelation to those Prophets not written in the form of a book), and conferred upon them a great kingdom.”*Quran (4:54)*_
_*The Psalms of David:* “And your Lord knows best all who are in the heavens and the earth. And indeed, We have preferred some of the Prophets above others, and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms).” *Quran (17:55)*_
_*The Torah:* “Indeed, We gave the Book (Torah) to Musa (Moses)…”*Quran (11:110)*_
_*The Gospel: *“Then, We sent after them Our Messengers, and We sent ‘Îsa (Jesus) – son of Maryam (Mary), and gave him the Injeel (Gospel)…”* Quran (57:27)1*_
_*The Quran: *“Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran in order that you may understand.”* Quran (12:2)*_
According to Islamic belief, as the divine revealed books were changed by people over the years, hence there was need to refresh that message and the need for the final divine revelation – Quran – that God has promised will not change until end of time.

Here are the related Quran verses.


_*About changing Allah’s original revelations: *“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from Allah (God),” to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.” *Quran (2:79)*_
_*Revelation of the final Divine message: *“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture (Quran) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety…” *Quran (2:97)*_
_*God’s promise to protect His final message: *“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” *Quran (15:9)*_
_*Closeness of Christians to Muslims: *“…nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, “We are Christians”: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.” *Quran (5:82)*_
The following sections highlight similarities between some of the Quranic verses and verses as they are found recorded today in the New Testament books (Bible).

*Belief that Allah (God) is the only Deity*
Here are some of the verses on this topic from the Quran and also as it appears in the Bible today.


_*Quran 2:255:* “Allah! None has the right to be worshipped but He, The Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth.…”_
_*Quran 2:165: *“And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah (God). But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else).…”_
_The Bible says:_


_*Mark 12:28-30:* (A teacher of the Law asked) “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus replied, “The most important one is this: “Listen, Israel! The Lord our God is the only Lord. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”_
*Belief in Angels*
The Quran describes them as Allah’s creation who carry out duties assigned by Him with absolute obedience, such as recording our words and deeds, guarding us, taking our souls at death, praising God, asking forgiveness for those on earth, and those who conveyed divine messages to prophets, messengers, and the Virgin Mary.


_*Quran 6:61:* “…and He sends guardians (angels guarding and writing all of one’s good and bad deeds) over you, until when death approaches one of you, Our Messengers (angel of death and his assistants) take his soul, and they never neglect their duty.”_
_*Quran 86:4:* “There is no human being but has a protector over him (or her) (i.e. angels in charge of each human being guarding him, writing his good and bad deeds).”_
_*Quran 42:5:* …The angels exalt [God] with praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on earth…_
_*Quran 3:39:* “Then the angels called him (Zakariah), while he was standing in prayer in Al-Mihrab (a praying place or a private room), (saying): “Allah gives you glad tidings of Yahya (John)…”_
_The New Testament states the following:_


_*Exodus 23:20:* “I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.”1_
_*Revelations 7: 11:* “All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God.”_
_*Luke 15:10:* …The angels of God rejoice over one sinner who repents._
_*Luke 1:11-13:* Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense.… The angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John._
*Belief in Prophets*
Muslims believe in all prophets and messengers of Allah who were sent at different times to their people to lead them to the path of God. The Quran says, “We sent no messenger before you [O Muhammad] without revealing to him: There is no god but Me so worship Me.” (Quran, 21:25). The Quran says that the faithful believe “in God, His angels, His books and His messengers, [saying], ‘We make no distinction between any of His messengers…’” (2:285)


_*Quran (21:25):* “And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad but We revealed to him (saying): None has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah), so worship Me (Alone and none else).”_
_*Quran (2:285):* “The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say), “We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers” – and they say, “We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all).”_
The following are the names of the prophets that are mentioned both in the Quran and the Bible. The names pronounced in Arabic appear in parentheses.


_Adam (Aadam)_
_Enoch (Idrees)_
_Noah (Nuh)_
_Salih_
_Abraham (Ibrahim)_
_Ishmael (Ismaeel)_
_Issac (Ishaq)_
_Lot (Lut)_
_Jacob (Yacoob)_
_Joseph (Yusuf)_
_Job (Ayyub)_
_Moses (Moosa)_
_Ezekiel (Thul-kifl)_
_David (Dawud)_
_Solomon (Sulaiman)_
_Elias_
_Elisha (Al-Yasa)_
_Jonah (Yunus)_
_Zachariah_
_John (Yahya)_
*[paste:font size="4"]God’s knowledge and power*
*Regarding God’s power, following are some of the verses.
*

*Quran 57:22: “No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but it is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz) before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.”*
*Quran (63:64): “Then tell Me about the seed that you sow in the ground. Is it you that make it grow, or are We the Grower?”*
*The New Testament states the following:
*

*John 1:3: Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.*
*1 Corinthians 3:7: So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.*
*[/paste:font]
Belief in the Hereafter and Accountability before God
Some of the verses related to resurrection in the hereafter and accountability of ones actions are the following:


Quran (3:185): “Everyone shall taste death. And only on the Day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing).”
Quran 39:68: “And the Trumpet will be blown, and all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth will swoon away, except him whom Allah wills. Then it will be blown a second time, and behold they will be standing, looking on (waiting).”
Quran 21:47: “And We shall set up balances of justice on the Day of Resurrection, then none will be dealt with unjustly in anything. And if there be the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it. And Sufficient are We to take account.”
The Bible says:


Mathew 12:33: And you can be sure than on the Judgment Day everyone will have to give account of every useless word he has ever spoken. Your words will be used to judge you – to declare you either innocent or guilty.
Mark 5:28-29: …All who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
Revelations 21:8: But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.1
Matthew 13: 41-43: This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mathew 5:12: Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven ….
Belief in Prayer
The need to establish prayers is mentioned numerous times in the Quran. Allah says:


Quran 20:14: “Verily! I am Allah! None has the right to be worshipped but I, so worship Me, and perform As-Salat (prayers) for My Remembrance.”
The Bible says:


Mathew 26:36: Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed…
Mark 1:35: Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.
Belief in Fasting

Quran 2:183: “O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you (Christians, Jews), that you may become Al-Muttaqun (pious)”
The Bible says:


Mathew 9:14: Then John’s disciples came and asked him, “How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?”
Luke 2:37: (about a prophetess who) was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.
Belief in Alms and Charity
The importance of charity is stressed in numerous places in the Quran.


Quran 9:60: “As-Sadaqat (here it means Zakat – obligatory charity) are only for the poor, and Al-Masakin (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds), and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam), and to free the captives, and for those in debt, and for Allah’s Cause, and for the wayfarer (a traveler who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allah. And Allah is All-Knower, All-Wise.”
Quran 2:219: “…And they ask you what they ought to spend. Say: “That which is beyond your needs…”
Quran (19:55): “And he (Ismail) used to enjoin on his family and his people prayers and the Zakat (obligatory charity) and his Lord was pleased with him.”
The Bible says on charity:


Acts 10:2: He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
1 Timothy 5:8: If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Luke 3:11: John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.”
About the “Prophethood” of Jesus in Quran and Bible
The following are the verses of Jesus’ prophet hood that appear both in the Quran and the Bible.


Quran 19:29-32: “Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle? “He [‘Îsa (Jesus)] said: “Verily I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;  And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salat (prayer), and Zakat (charity), as long as I live. And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest.”
Quran (3:49): “And will make him [(‘Îsa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, a figure like that of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah’s (God’s) Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.”
The Bible says the following on Jesus prophethood:


Mathew 13:57: And so they rejected him (in Nazareth). Jesus said to them, “A prophet is respected everywhere except in his home town and by his own family.”
Mathew 21:10-11: When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was thrown into an uproar. Who is he? The people asked. “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee,” the crowds answered.
Mathew 21:45: The chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables and knew that he was talking about them, so they tried to arrest him. But they were afraid of the crowds who considered Jesus to be a prophet.“
Luke 7:16: (After Jesus brought a dead man to life) They were all filled with fear and praised God. “A great prophet has appeared among us!” they said.
Luke 24:19: “…Jesus of Nazareth…This man was a prophet and was considered by God and by all the people to be powerful in everything he said and did.”
The Difference…
The main difference between Christianity and Islam is reflected in the following Quranic verse:


Quran (4:171): O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah (God) aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” – and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (Deity / God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
*


----------



## Vipera (Jun 8, 2017)

Lucifer666 said:


> Bottomline is if anyone thinks banning/restricting the entry of Muslims is in any way a good idea (we have a common enemy! Muslims hate ISIS too! and war! Please help!) then you need a bit of a reality check.


Did you call for a reality check? Here you go:

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey



> The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts.





> Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.





> 23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.





> On social issues, 52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal, compared to 22% of non-Muslim Britons. Nearly half believe it is unacceptable for a gay or lesbian to teach their children.



There are over 2 million muslims in the Uk. At least 400.000 want the sharia law to replace the British law. Over one million thinks gays should be illegal and be a parent at all. Then, of course, there are 100.000 people who sympathize with terrorists and two thirds of those 2 million "moderates" who wouldn't report to the police.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

@Haider Raza : Thank you for proving that are not able to think for yourself.
You didn't address my point about man-made stories in the Quran at all.
Sadly, I wasted my time with you.


----------



## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Sadly, *I wasted my time with you.*


Well that's your opinion.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 8, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Did you call for a reality check? Here you go:
> 
> https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey
> 
> ...


My dude

You've been lied to


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 8, 2017)

Hey @UltraDolphinRevolution, you never replied to my post.
Anyway, that Haider guy was someone I ignored a while back, he's pretty insane if you ask me.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 8, 2017)

osaka35 said:


> Religions are dumb. The religious are unfortunately being duped. It's okay, we all make mistakes. The problem is when you double down on your mistake and hurt innocent people in its name. At that point you move from being duped to being reprehensible evil.



I disagree that religions are dumb, but I'm not here to debate that. 



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Are you insane? I can talk about what Taoism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism teaches without adhering to any of these religions.
> Do I become a Muslim if I explain Tawhid?
> 
> Now for the love of God/Allah turn your brain on for just a minute and explain this: How did the following man-made stories end up in the god-made Quran?
> ...



How do you know these Apocryphal aren't true and that the Quran merely corrected the accepted canon?
As for the Quranic verse, yes, the Talmud was written by Rabbi's but you obviously haven't done enough research as it contain's two components. 
The oral Torah and the  Gemara. Simply put, this oral Torah is where you got the quote from and therefore doesn't make the Quran incorrect.
To argue that similar stories appeared in Apocrypha and were therefore stolen is just irrational.
Also, did you use wiki Islam for this, by any chance?


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> How do you know these Apocryphal aren't true and that the Quran merely corrected the accepted canon?
> As for the Quranic verse, yes, the Talmud was written by Rabbi's but you obviously haven't done enough research as it contain's two components.
> The oral Torah and the  Gemara. Simply put, this oral Torah is where you got the quote from and therefore doesn't make the Quran incorrect.
> To argue that similar stories appeared in Apocrypha and were therefore stolen is just irrational.
> Also, did you use wiki Islam for this, by any chance?


I used Wiki-Islam for finding the translation quickly, not for my research. I knew this for many years.
How does it not make the Quran man-made? Are you saying parts of the Talmud are inspired by God?!
I haven't met any Muslim who makes that claim. I believe there is even a Hadith in which Muhammad says there were no prophets in the time between Jesus and him. Pls elaborate.

As for your older post. Was it the one about situational stuff in the Quran? (p.23 of this thread)
I fail to see how situational stuff, e.g. that Muhammad can keep on having sex with a certain woman even if his other wives disapprove and that Allah can give him better wives if they don't behave, could be of any benefit for the future.

You said situational stuff could be useful in the future in case there will be a just war (we disagree on whether 9:29 and 9:30 is situational).
So one day it would be good advice from God to hit the enemies above their neck (i.e. beheading them) and cut off their finger tips? Wow, I don't want to be in a war with you (neither on an opposing nor the same side). Would you also take sex slaves in battle and do you think it's good to have sex with married women who your army defeated? Sounds a lot like ISIS, if you ask me. The difference would be that you are not ready to fight because you think there isn't a just war (yet).

You said God might have had his reasons for not making perfectly clear which parts of the Quran are always valid and which are not. Since he is all-knowing and I'm not. Granted, but this argument kills any discussion. It's like Christians saying maybe it was a good thing that 5-year old Bobby was blown to pieces by a thunderstorm. God must have had his reasons. Maybe the Holocaust had a purpose. There are actually Jews who believe that.
Which brings me to a two-part question for you: 
a) Do you believe that God punishes in this life? (not only in the hereafter)
b) Do you believe God punishes people through other people? E.g. in the Bible God punishes the Canaanites through/by the Jews. I believe it's in the Quran as well but I can't remember the context. I believe it somewhere says "it was not you who killed them, it was Allah".


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## Deleted-401606 (Jun 8, 2017)

The religion of peace.


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## Haloman800 (Jun 8, 2017)

Muslim mayor tells British citizens "You just have to deal with Muslims committing terrorist attacks".

How is this surprising? Why is he still mayor? Countries like Poland have ZERO terrorism, you know why? Because they have close to 0% Muslims.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 8, 2017)

Haloman800 said:


> Muslim mayor tells British citizens "You just have to deal with Muslims committing terrorist attacks".
> 
> How is this surprising? Why is he still mayor? Countries like Poland have ZERO terrorism, you know why? Because they have close to 0% Muslims.


Unless I missed something I'm fairly certain that's not a direct quote


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## Haloman800 (Jun 8, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Unless I missed something I'm fairly certain that's not a direct quote


No, the quote is in the OP. He said that terrorism is part of living in a big city. Warsaw, Poland, is a "Big city" and they have zero terrorism. Seoul, South Korea is the same. 

High Muslim population = terrorism.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 8, 2017)

Haloman800 said:


> No, the quote is in the OP. He said that terrorism is part of living in a big city. Warsaw, Poland, is a "Big city" and they have zero terrorism. Seoul, South Korea is the same.
> 
> High Muslim population = terrorism.


That doesn't account for terrorism in Ireland, tho


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## Haloman800 (Jun 8, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> That doesn't account for terrorism in Ireland, tho


Wrong.


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## Abu_Senpai (Jun 8, 2017)

Haloman800 said:


> High Muslim population = terrorism.



The stupidity of some people mystifies me.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

I might be wrong on that, but I think this Ramadan alone there have been more civilian deaths than in all IRA (Irish) history.
Wikipedia brings me to this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_deaths_in_Northern_Ireland
Is that it?
Anyway I don't feel lile looking it up. But the Irish argument is just like the Christian abortion clinic bombings: An exception which confirms the rule. The rule being Islamic terrorism. There is a Hadith of Muhammad saying "I have been made victorious with terror (casting fear into the enemy's heart". After 9/11 more people apparently converted to Islam btw.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Abu_Senpai said:


> The stupidity of some people mystifies me.


Can you disprove his claim?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Are you saying parts of the Talmud are inspired by God


No, the Torah includes many times where God asked Moses to relay information, this is clearly one of those cases.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *that Muhammad can keep on having sex with a certain woman even if his other wives disapprove* and* that Allah can give him better wives if they don't behave, could be of any benefit for the future.*



Wait, what? gonna need evidence.

[QUOTESo one day it would be good advice from God to hit the enemies above their neck (i.e. beheading them) and cut off their finger tips? Wow, I don't want to be in a war with you (neither on an opposing nor the same side).[/QUOTE]

The Quran uses hyperbole, if you're going to fight others you're not meant to follow the exact rulings. The use of beheading etc. Was to show how gruesome the war ahead would be.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> but this argument kills any discussion



But that's just something you'll have to accept when discussing an Omni-God.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> There are actually Jews who believe that.



I know a lot of Jews who believe that.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Do you believe that God punishes in this life?



Yes, this is proven by the deluge as well as the destruction of other societies in the past (the Ad etc.)



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Do you believe God punishes people through other people?



If that's a mean to punish, possible. Although, I'm not too sure so I'll get back to you on this one.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

@UltraDolphinRevolution 
He doesn't need to, he's making a negative claim.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Haloman800 said:


> Muslim mayor tells British citizens "You just have to deal with Muslims committing terrorist attacks".
> 
> How is this surprising? Why is he still mayor? Countries like Poland have ZERO terrorism, you know why? Because they have close to 0% Muslims.



He must be a troll... Right?

Sadiq Khan said you have to deal with terrorism in big cities in the sense that we have to strengthen our police etc.
Not "Just accept that it's happening."

A similar thing happened with Macron, who by the way, is the only politician in a major country right now that I actually support, said a similar line and was misinterpreted as to saying Terrorism is just something we should accept, he meant it as something that WILL happen and something we need to take the proper steps to control.

inb4 ignorant fools call Macron a politically correct liberal.



Haloman800 said:


> Warsaw, Poland, is a "Big city" and they have zero terrorism. Seoul, South Korea is the same.



Lol. Warsaw is about as unimportant as Malta in the fight against terror. South Korea hasn't done anything to provoke ISIS. ISIS's agenda is to disrupt the western world. You aren't going to do that by disrupting Poland, which has a GDP of 489 billion, when you could disrupt the UK with a GDP of 2.73 TRILLION.
This statement shows a level of ignorance that I'd expect from a 14-year-old.


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Jun 8, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> No, the Torah includes many times where God asked Moses to relay information, this is clearly one of those cases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But if ISISs agenda is to disrupt the western world. Why attack the Philippines?

isnt that the East-Asian part of the world?

I am just curious since i was under the impression that ISIS are savage monsters who attack randomly without any agenda whatsoever.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 8, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> But if ISISs agenda is to disrupt the western world. Why attack the Philippines?
> 
> isnt that the East-Asian part of the world?
> 
> I am just curious since i was under the impression that ISIS are savage monsters who attack randomly without any agenda whatsoever.



Because it's easy to attack the Philippines. 

That, and the Philippines are a pretty huge manufacturer of goods.


----------



## Abu_Senpai (Jun 8, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Because it's easy to attack the Philippines.
> 
> That, and the Philippines are a pretty huge manufacturer of goods.



What kind of goods dude? kmon dont leave me hanging


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> No, the Torah includes many times where God asked Moses to relay information, this is clearly one of those cases.


Still don't get your point sorry. Are you saying God somehow inspired certain Rabbis who then wrote down this hidden truth that was supposed to be in the Torah?

You asked me how do I know that the Baby Jesus speaking and Jesus making clay birds alive stories are not the correct ones.
Here is why:
Stories about a famous person get hyped up, not the opposite.
If Alexander the Great was a great lover (just making it up as an example) who could satisfy 5 women in one night, then over time it would be 10 women. Later still there would be the claim that he wouldn't lose an erection. Eventually God gave him super staying powers etc etc.
I'm not sure you could argue that Jesus claimed to be God from the Gospel of Mark. Difficult to say. But the later gospels Mt/Lk clearly make him more divine. The latest biblical gospel (John) even more so.
If you ask me personally, I think Jesus was probably a Zelot who killed some Roman soldiers or tried to build an army for liberation. There is a hint in the gospels: Barrabas should have been killed but the Romans had a custom to release a prisoner. No such custom is known in Roman history, so the gospel writers made it up. What if (just a theory): Jesus was actually Barrabas? The name means "son of the father". That's a weird name! Jesus called God "Abba" (father) all the time. The Jewish crowd loved Barrabas according to the Gospels.
Muslims always say the Gospels can't be trusted because they are too late. Then how on earth can we trust a much later gospel?
And then there's also the fact that a speaking baby is both ridiculous and scary as f*ck. Just think about it. LOL




TheDarkGreninja said:


> Wait, what? gonna need evidence.


Sura 66:1. Pls don't ask me to find the hadith, but it was a Christian slave, if I recall correctly.




TheDarkGreninja said:


> The Quran uses hyperbole, if you're going to fight others you're not meant to follow the exact rulings. The use of beheading etc. Was to show how gruesome the war ahead would be.


THE F*CK?! ARE YOU SERIOUS?
First you tell me these verses are situational. But they could be useful again one day.
And now you're telling me even when they are useful again you should not do as they say?!
You wanna know the truth? You know the Quran contains vile and despicabel things (so does the Bible) but you are afraid to face to truth.


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## Stercate79 (Jun 8, 2017)

Brexit.
Never been into schengen area.
Blames EU for second generation terrorists.

Congrats, you won the little golden mongol.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

Did someone noticed this (@UltraDolphinRevolution) undercover muslim hatin christian? Man we are still livin in dark ages.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> . Are you saying God somehow inspired certain Rabbis who then wrote down this hidden truth that was supposed to be in the Torah?



It's pretty simple, moses relayed that information to be written into the Torah.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Sura 66:1.


"*O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives?"
*
This has to do with sex, does it?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Stories about a famous person get hyped up, not the opposite.
> If Alexander the Great was a great lover (just making it up as an example) who could satisfy 5 women in one night, then over time it would be 10 women. Later still there would be the claim that he wouldn't lose an erection. Eventually God gave him super staying powers etc etc.
> I'm not sure you could argue that Jesus claimed to be God from the Gospel of Mark. Difficult to say. But the later gospels Mt/Lk clearly make him more divine. The latest biblical gospel (John) even more so.
> If you ask me personally, I think Jesus was probably a Zelot who killed some Roman soldiers or tried to build an army for liberation. There is a hint in the gospels: Barrabas should have been killed but the Romans had a custom to release a prisoner. No such custom is known in Roman history, so the gospel writers made it up. What if (just a theory): Jesus was actually Barrabas? The name means "son of the father". That's a weird name! Jesus called God "Abba" (father) all the time. The Jewish crowd loved Barrabas according to the Gospels.
> ...



Dude, I didn't ask for your opinion.

I never said the Gospels can't be trusted because they're too late. You're claiming I've said something when I clearly have not. 
What the Quran says is fact and if it contradicts the Bible it's only an issue for Christians.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> First you tell me these verses are situational. But they could be useful again one day.
> And now you're telling me even when they are useful again you should not do as they say?!
> You wanna know the truth? You know the Quran contains vile and despicabel things (so does the Bible) but you are afraid to face to truth



Nice job trying to assume things. Anyway, they're useful to know what to do in certain situations. Not to follow exact orders.

For example 2:191 asks Muslims to fight against oppression, that's the general message. You don't have to kill them with a sword when you have a gun.

Sorry for those with OCD, I keep having formatting issues when I quote Quran.com.



Abu_Senpai said:


> What kind of goods dude? kmon dont leave me hanging



I believe mostly palm oil and other food products.

Also, what exactly are your beliefs?


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> It's pretty simple, moses relayed that information to be written into the Torah.


Could you pls use a synonym? Maybe I just don't understand "relay". Thanks.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> "*O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives?"
> *
> This has to do with sex, does it?


The Quran doesn't make sense without the Sunna. This is a perfect example.
If you just read this verse it appears to be the most random verse in history.
But you could come to the conclusion even without the Sunna.
Let's see: 
What could the wives complain about? 
a) eating too much cake b) singing in the shower c) Having sex with non-wives?
What is lawful for Muhammad?
a) telling the truth b) writing poetry c) having an unlimited number of wives and sex slaves.
Also Allah threatening the wives with divorce is cute. Might give the reader the impression Allah and Muhammad are one and the same.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> I never said the Gospels can't be trusted because they're too late. You're claiming I've said something when I clearly have not.
> What the Quran says is fact and if it contradicts the Bible it's only an issue for Christians.


Actually, what Joseph Smith wrote is fact. If the Quran contradicts it, it's an issue for Muslims.
Anyway tell me a famous person who became less legendary over time, not more, i.e. later stories attribute less miracles to him. That was my argument in a nutshell. Any historian will tell you that earlier sources are better than much later sources. If you want to know about WW2, now is still your chance (some witnesses are still alive), you don't ask people in 2100.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Nice job trying to assume things. Anyway, they're useful to know what to do in certain situations. Not to follow exact orders.
> For example 2:191 asks Muslims to fight against oppression, that's the general message. You don't have to kill them with a sword when you have a gun.


Sura 2:191 doesn't mention a sword. But that doesn't matter. I get what you are saying, but you have to admit that cutting of finger tips is a pretty exact order, don't you think? How else can we reinterpret this verse? Cut of their toes? Or does it actually just mean cut off their toe nails. Ahhh isn't that nice. And here I was finding fault with the Quran. Puh.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Let's see:
> What could the wives complain about?
> a) eating too much cake b) singing in the shower c) Having sex with non-wives?
> What is lawful for Muhammad?
> ...



No offence but that's the biggest load of horseshit... other than basically all your other claims.
Allah put a limit on who Muhammed could marry:

33:52
Not lawful to you, [O Muhammad], are [any additional] women after [this], nor [is it] for you to exchange them for [other] wives, even if their beauty were to please you, except what your right hand possesses. And ever is Allah , over all things, an Observer.

Why would Muhammed limit himself?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Joseph Smith wrote is fact.



Prove it.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> but you have to admit that cutting of finger tips is a pretty exact order, don't you think?



It was an emphasis rather than an order.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 8, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Why would Muhammed limit himself?


Seeking approval from his wives.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> Prove it.


I'm not a Mormon, lol. Just showing you how you come across.
I have the perfect book. It has the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If any book disagrees with my perfect book, too bad. It's not my problem. Lalala.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> It was an emphasis rather than an order.


I'm sorry, but you are a lost case. Not a bone of critical thinking in your body.
I appreciate the conversation (unlike with Haider Raza) a lot, but I think we should leave it at that.

My last comment to you: I asked you earlier, whether you think God punishes people through other people.
I find this idea horrific.
If "my people" ever were to be annihilated by a foreign country, I'd prefer them doing it out of anger/limited resources/etc.
The thought of some people killing and thinking they do God a favor is just f*cking scary!
That's why I condemn both the Bible and the Quran.
I'd like to say God bless but you'd first have to prove his existence. No hard feelings, brother in humanity.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Seeking approval from his wives.



That wouldn't make sense seeing as how this verse came long after the wives accepted his roles.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I'm not a Mormon, lol. Just showing you how you come across.
> I have the perfect book. It has the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If any book disagrees with my perfect book, too bad. It's not my problem. Lalala



If you can't prove your claims, why should I trust you. I've thoroughly debunked your claims and the best you can come with is unsubstantiated claims.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I'm sorry, but you are a lost case. Not a bone of critical thinking in your body.



And that's because I'm questioning your "critical" thinking? If anything that shows im more critical as I'm willing to accept your arguments, refute them and then go on to question them. You haven't even refuted a single one of mine, just questioning them waiting for further clarification when most of my explanations were simple.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The thought of some people killing and thinking they do God a favor is just f*cking scary!



If god punishes you through a person, that person wouldn't know that was god's intention. If you think "God wants me to do this." You are clearly in the wrong as you are not an all-knowing being.

So if you can actually refute my claims rather than suggest possible answers, I'd gladly accept a loss.

I'd also ask you to stop making assumptions. I've questioned my faith every time I've hit an argument like this. How can I, someone who is an advocate of rational thinking, not question the very foundations of my life?


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## Haider Raza (Jun 8, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> *I asked you earlier, whether you think God punishes people through other people.
> I find this idea horrific.*
> If "my people" ever were to be annihilated by a foreign country, I'd prefer them doing it out of anger/limited resources/etc.


First of all you don't believe in God so this question doesn't imply. Unless you believe in God then I can tell you this. Do study cuz you know nothing because 

Allah (S.W.T.) says in _surat_ Al-Isra', (Verse 15), what can be translated as, *"Whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another’s burden…"* Allah also says in _surat_ Fussilat, (Verse 46), what can be translated as, *"Whosoever does righteous good deed it is for *(the benefit of)* his ownself, and whosoever does evil, it is against his ownself, and your Lord is not at all unjust to *(His)*slaves."* Allah also says in _surat_ Fatir, (Verse 18), what can be translated as, *"And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden, and if one heavily laden calls another to *(bear)* his load, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin…"*



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The thought of some people killing and thinking they do God a favor is just f*cking scary!


They do it because just like you bashing religion without knowledge. Same reason they do it without knowledge thinking that killing people will take them to heaven. I know how annoying & scary it is. 



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That's why I condemn both the Bible and the Quran.


-SNIP- Good for you.




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I'd like to say God bless but you'd first have to prove his existence. No hard feelings, brother in humanity.


His existence is clear as I explained earlier to you. You might have ignored we have eyes we don't think this creation could come by accident. So yeah now you have to prove how this universe was made from nothing to something. Also how it was made so complex without something.


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## Haloman800 (Jun 9, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> .
> This statement shows a level of ignorance that I'd expect from a 14-year-old.


"lol ur ignorant" nice rebuttal.

Big cities in European/East Asian countries that don't have Muslims have nearly *zero *terrorism. Must Muslims aren't terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.

Islam is a 7th century cult that idolized a pedophile, rapist, murderer and warmongerer.

(inb4 you criticize some other religion) no other religion today is killing people en masse, only Muslims.

Islam is incompatible with modern society.


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## Abu_Senpai (Jun 9, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> I believe mostly palm oil and other food products.
> 
> Also, what exactly are your beliefs?



My Beliefs? if your referring to my religion of faith then it is the same as yours(Islam). i am not the best Muslim, like many i have my faults but i i believe if you stick to the 5 pillars, then you will befine. I aint as extreme as our "brother" Haider Raza. Anything else?


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## Haloman800 (Jun 9, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> The stupidity of some people mystifies me.


Not an argument.


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## Abu_Senpai (Jun 9, 2017)

Haloman800 said:


> Not an argument.



Forgive me brother, i was just highlighting to the lurkers of this thread, your level of sanity. Hope you dont mind


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

Abu_Senpai said:


> My Beliefs? if your referring to my religion of faith then it is the same as yours(Islam). i am not the best Muslim, like many i have my faults but i i believe if you stick to the 5 pillars, then you will befine. I aint as extreme as our "brother" Haider Raza. Anything else?



I was suspecting you were. I was also asking more about your political views, but i'm gonna go on a limb and guess left?


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 9, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Why would Muhammed limit himself?



I wrote: Seeking approval from his wives.



TheDarkGreninja said:


> That wouldn't make sense seeing as how this verse came long after the wives accepted his roles.




66:1 "*O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives?"*

ouch.

I hope you won't go to hell for saying that what Allah says doesn't make sense.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I wrote: Seeking approval from his wives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that's why I said:
" seeing as how this verse came long after the wives accepted his roles."
Nice job misrepresenting me.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 9, 2017)

So you didn't just contradict the Quran/Allah?
Explain how.
And what noun does "his" refer to? "His roles"


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So you didn't just contradict the Quran/Allah?
> Explain how.
> And what noun does "his" refer to? "His roles"


Because that verse came long before 33:52. By then it was noted that the wives didn't quarrel with Muhammed over his roles. His roles including having sex slaves as they were gifts from foreign nations.
Their issues with his roles were very much in the more early years.


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## Haloman800 (Jun 9, 2017)

Remember that Muhammad, founder of Islam, was the first Muslim terrorist

"Bukhari 29:77
I have been made victorious with terror"


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 9, 2017)

So according to you 66:1 (wives being jealous, Allah says Muhammad should not listen to them, he can continue to have sex with his slave girl)
came first.
Then much later came 33:52, which allows Muhammad to have more sex slaves.

Before the events of 66:1 he limited himself for the sake of his wives approval, right? So how does it not make sense?

According to this list, Sura 33 came before Sura 66:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surahs_in_the_Quran
Or is verse 52 separate of Sura 33?


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

Haloman800 said:


> "Bukhari 29:77
> I have been made victorious with terror"


No, Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism or coercion.

I’d like to invite you to reword your question.

After looking at the Arabic text, the translation is done completely wrong. The Arabic word is *ruebay, *which DOES NOT mean terror but AWE. I’ve attached the original Arabic text (see bottom of post) and put a box around two words, which mean _‘helped with awe.’_

If you lookup the word Awe in an English dictionary, you will learn that it means:

_noun_


*1*. a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder."they gazed in awe at the small mountain of diamonds"
_verb_


*1*. inspire with awe."they were both awed by the vastness of the forest"
The real translation of the Hadith is *"I've been helped with awe"* and the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was talking about himself personally not about Islam.

The _ruebay_ used by the Prophet was that of his character, his morals, his spirituality, his promoting the virtues of forgiveness.

You cannot simply take one quote of what he said and base your suppositions on Islam's victory. You need to look at the life of the prophet and see how he behaved with people. He did not terrorize or coerce them into becoming Muslim. The prophet saw Islam spread the most *after* the treaty of Hudaibiya (Peace between Mecca and Medina) and this treaty was breached by the Meccans. Even after Mecca was conquered, a general amnesty was declared. So Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism.

I urge you to take basic study of Islam under consideration. Here are some resources that are unbiased and will help you formulate a solid understanding. Any library in North America can help you obtain them:

Elementary Study of Islam - _Mirza Tahir Ahmad_

Islam: A very short introduction - _Oxford Press_

Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet - _Karen Armstrong





_

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Haloman800 said:


> .....


Translation can be done wrong. Learn arabic & then come back with mistakes. If you can find em.


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## Haloman800 (Jun 9, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> No, Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism or coercion.


I'd like to think you're simply ignorant and not trying to intentionally deceive people (Taqiyaa). The correct translation is *terrorism*. http://www.exmuslim.org/i-have-been-made-victorious-by-terror.html

Here's more violence (this time in the Qur'an itself)  _"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."_ Qur'an 9:5

The message is clear; Once Muslims become the majority, your options are convert, or Muslims will kill you.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> .....


Learn rather then being ignorant.

66:1 https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/commentary-on-quran-661-2/
33:52 https://discover-the-truth.com/2017/01/22/surah-3352-restriction-on-prophet-muhammed-p/

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Haloman800 said:


> ....


Study then you'll know you just misinterpreted verses like (Al-Qaida The ISIS) without knowing background story.

9:5 https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/22/an-historical-examination-of-the-sword-verse-surah-95/


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

@Haider Raza: Oh....ok. I see.... we all forgot to read the additional leaflet that comes bundled with every Quran :-)

Allah may be great, but as an author he is rather shoddy. Never seen a book misunderstood by so many people (in the same way).

Maybe the quran should only be allowed to be published with all explanations and context in the same book? 
We here in Germany have something similar: Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is only allowed to be published with a commentary and context.
(In case someones tries to take Hitlers bullshit seriously)
After all both books are written by people who would have been good friends if they lived in the same time :-)

Regards,

Kirky


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> -snip-


Touché.
You made me laugh with that comment. 
This will probably turn into flame, so I shall flee while I can, but your sense of humor, well it is good.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> @Haider Raza: *Oh....ok. I see.... we all forgot to read the additional leaflet that comes bundled with every Quran :-)*


It's history you ignorant piece of brainless creature. You know what history means right? 
*
CHOP CHOP EDUCATE YOURSELF!*


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> Touché.
> You made me laugh with that comment.
> This will probably turn into flame, so I shall flee while I can, but your sense of humor, well it is good.



And you were quite right about the flame :-)

@Haider Raza: Oh...sorry... I clicked the wrong link obviously... The one I opened when I clicked on your link lead me to a page which contains quite an amount of tafsir (exegesis for the qoran) which is not only context and history, but also opinion and interpretation. These interpretations differ a lot between the muslim sects. 
A book that is so open to interpretation is rather dangerous, don't you think? And the book itself claims to be a simple guide...

And by the way: if the the verses must be seen in historic context, that means the book is really outdated and should be put in the history section of the library. Maybe God should write an updated version?



Haider Raza said:


> It's history you ignorant piece of brainless creature. You know what history means right?
> *
> CHOP CHOP EDUCATE YOURSELF!*



Wow...What a fine Riposte. Truly from an educated member of a civilized society.

Regards,
Kirky


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> .......


No time for trolls.

(I don't worry about the haters. They are just angry because the truth I speak contradicts the lie they live)


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

@Haider Raza: At least in One point we can agree:

(I don't worry about the haters. They are just angry because the truth I speak contradicts the lie they live)

That is exactly my opinion on that matter :-)

Regards,
Kirky


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 9, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> No, Islam does not owe it's success to terrorism or coercion.
> 
> I’d like to invite you to reword your question.
> 
> ...




So in the Quran Sura 8:12 when it says:
*"I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip"*

It means awe, as well? 
What about the other verses in the Quran that mention the word "l-ru'ba":
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=rEb#(8:12:16)


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So according to you 66:1 (wives being jealous, Allah says Muhammad should not listen to them, he can continue to have sex with his slave girl)
> came first.
> Then much later came 33:52, which allows Muhammad to have more sex slaves.
> 
> ...



Oh, thought you were discussing the verse within surah 4, my apologies.

33:52 doesn't let him have more slaves, it prohibits him!

As for 66, elaborate.



Haloman800 said:


> Bukhari 29:77



erm what?
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: A woman from the tribe of Juhaina came to the Prophet and said, "My mother had vowed to perform Hajj but she died before performing it. May I perform Hajj on my mother's behalf?" The Prophet replied, "Perform Hajj on her behalf. Had there been a debt on your mother, would you have paid it or not? So, pay Allah's debt as He has more right to be paid."

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Haloman800 said:


> I'd like to think you're simply ignorant and not trying to intentionally deceive people (Taqiyaa). The correct translation is *terrorism*. http://www.exmuslim.org/i-have-been-made-victorious-by-terror.html
> 
> Here's more violence (this time in the Qur'an itself)  _"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."_ Qur'an 9:5
> 
> The message is clear; Once Muslims become the majority, your options are convert, or Muslims will kill you.


Nice job pulling things out of context:
9:1 [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, *to those with whom you had made a treaty* among the polytheists.
9:2 So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
9:3 And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. *So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away* – then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
9:4 *Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty* among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. *But if they should repent*, establish prayer, and give zakah, *let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful*.
9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, *then grant him protection* so that he may hear the words of Allah. *Then deliver him to his place of safety*. That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:7 How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? *So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous* [who fear Him].
9:8 How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
9:9 They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.
9:10 They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.
9:11 But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
9:13 *Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger*, *and they had begun the attack upon you the first time?* Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
9:14 Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people.

So based on this, you're saying we shouldn't fight people who break treaties?

Anyway, nice job using biased articles, show's a real level of critical thinking there.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> .......



Quran 8:12 – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

And

Quran 8:15 – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”

The historical context for the above passages (Quran 8:12 and 8:15) is that it was revealed at the battle of Badr. A battle in which the disbelievers (Pagans) of Makkah travelled 100s of miles to kill Muslims in Madinah. The pagans had 1000 soldiers, while the Muslims all they could gather to fight back in defence, had only 300 soldiers. Even though Prophet Muhammad (p) had left Makkah to find peace for its community without being persecuted, oppressed, they once again were trying to terrorize the Muslim community. Let’s read from Q. 8:9 to 8:19,

8:9 [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, “Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another.”
8:10 And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah . Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
8:11 [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.
8:12 [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”
8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger – indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
8:14 “That [is yours], so taste it.” And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.
8:15 O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].
8:16 And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah , and his refuge is Hell – and wretched is the destination.
8:17 And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
8:18 That [is so], and [also] that Allah will weaken the plot of the disbelievers.
8:19 If you [disbelievers] seek the victory – the defeat has come to you. *And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all*, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers.

When we read the verses before and after, we get a clear picture that this was a battle. The killing that is mentioned in Q. 8:12 is on the battlefield, which took place 1400 years ago. When we read Q. 8:17 it says, that it was not Muhammed (or his companions) who killed the enemy, but it was Him (God) who had done so. Furthermore, Q 8:19 offers peace to the enemy, if the enemy desist from hostilities against Muslims,

8:19 If you [disbelievers] seek the victory – the defeat has come to you. *And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return*, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers.

When we get to read the verses in its context, does it promote the killing of innocents? The answer is NO! Even when Muslims were being persecuted by the mighty army of Quraish, God Almighty encouraged Muslims to offer peace if they, the enemy stopped hostilities against them (Muslims).

*Commentaries*

The Holy Quran Arabic Text with English Translation, Commentary and comprehensive Introduction – Maulana Muhammad Ali

“19a *It is related that when the Quraish left Makkah to attack the Muslims*, they held on to their curtains of the Ka’bah and prayed thus; ‘O Allah, assist the best of the two forces and the most rightly directed of the two parties and the most honoured of the two groups and the most excellent of the two religions’. Others say that Abu Jahl prayed in the field of battle, saying: ‘O Allah, whoever of us is the greater cutter of the ties of relationship and more wicked, destroy him tomorrow morning’ (Rz).” *[1]*


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -snip-




You really need to read dude. It says he cannot exchange them (the wives) but he can exchange sex slaves for others but cannot gain anymore.

If you can't prove this claim with tafsir or hadeeth, you're just full of it.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 9, 2017)

So does the word mean terror or not?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TheDarkGreninja said:


> You really need to read dude. It says he cannot exchange them (the wives) but he can exchange sex slaves for others but cannot gain anymore.


It's a grammatical technicality. Thanks for pointing it out. It could refer to the whole part before it ("neither nor").
I only know that the Arabic says "and not... and not". So I'm not an authority on that at all.
So do you know that he didn't have more slave girls after the revelation of this verse?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So does the word mean terror or not?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



He only had one more I believe and she was a gift from a Christian Coptic. To not accept her would be to disrespect a group of people. 

Does what word mean terror or not?


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> ....


We're done with the Quran chat. Let now come to the Bible corruption.

How about Deuteronomy 17:

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Or Deuteronomy 13:

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be 



Which of these verses your idol hitler used to kill millions of jews?


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

8:17 is rather interesting.... Thanks for pointing that out.
Why does Allah have to tell them, that they did not kill the enemy? "you have not killed them"...hmmm...
If they physically did not kill them they would know that... That leaves only one explanation: Allah killed the enemy THROUGH them.
Rather strange, that an almighty being needs the hands of us poor mortals to do his mighty deeds...
Also the Qoran offers a rather nice way of absolving one from guilt in that way.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> ....


We're done with the Quran chat. Let now come to the Bible corruption.

How about Deuteronomy 17:

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Or Deuteronomy 13:

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be 



Which of these verses your idol hitler used to kill millions of jews?


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

@Haider Raza: Hitler is not my idol :-)

And yes the OLD Testament of the bible contains many archaiv, racist and bloody commands to kill other people. And I'm really behind the idea to ban that book too (or at least the OLD, the one before Jesus)

And I will fight all the Believers of this book with my whole heart and denounce them as dangerous fanatics and idiots.... as soon as they begin to make suicide attacks on children in the name of Jesus

Regards,
Kirky


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> 8:17 is rather interesting.... Thanks for pointing that out.
> Why does Allah have to tell them, that they did not kill the enemy? "you have not killed them"...hmmm...
> If they physically did not kill them they would know that... That leaves only one explanation: Allah killed the enemy THROUGH them.
> Rather strange, that an almighty being needs the hands of us poor mortals to do his mighty deeds...
> Also the Qoran offers a rather nice way of absolving one from guilt in that way.



Why would god kill them?
If he's asking followers to prove their faith, why would HE fight? That's just irrational.

As for 8:17, "8:17 And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing."

God is saying that by them fighting he is standing alongside them and if they were to kill the disbelievers it was as if God himself killed them. It's making comparisons.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> @Haider Raza: Hitler is not my idol :-)
> 
> And yes the OLD Testament of the bible contains many archaiv, racist and bloody commands to kill other people. And I'm really behind the idea to ban that book too (or at least the OLD, the one before Jesus)
> 
> ...


Not trying to support Haider, cause he's a whackjob, but didn't Robert Dear shoot up a Planned Parenthood in the name of Christianity?


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> ....


Hitler is not your idol? What a joke! A german saying hitler is not his idol...? (A lie I guess) Also ISIS is not there yet ISIS is 90% low at innocent killing then Hitler. So my point was what verse of the Bible did hitler used to kill Millions of Jews?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> @Haider Raza: Hitler is not my idol :-)
> 
> And yes the OLD Testament of the bible contains many archaiv, racist and bloody commands to kill other people. And I'm really behind the idea to ban that book too (or at least the OLD, the one before Jesus)
> 
> ...



Christianity had a pretty violent past.
Found a pretty interesting Quora post:
https://www.quora.com/Which-religio...of-deaths-of-infidels-over-its-entire-history


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

Sorry for asking I found myself. Here you should also learn http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 9, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Hitler is not your idol? What a joke!_* A german saying hitler is not his idol...? (A lie I guess)*_ Also ISIS is not there yet ISIS is 90% low at innocent killing then Hitler. So my point was what verse of the Bible did hitler used to kill Millions of Jews?


You are a joke, piece of shit.
You got no idea about people and life in Germany, you extremist nonsense vomiting machine.
How the fuck you get the idea that an average German will have that kind of idolatry, for the sake of whatever the fuck you believe in, come out of your bottle.
And you have the face to call others ignorants, go fuck yourself.

BR, SarkW.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> You are a joke, piece of shit.
> You got no idea about people and life in Germany, you extremist nonsense vomiting machine.
> How the fuck you get the idea that an average German will have that kind of idolatry, for the sake of whatever the fuck you believe in, come out of your bottle.
> And you have the face to call others ignorants, go fuck yourself.
> ...



I'm tempted to unignore him just to see the bullshit he's spewing, by the sounds of it, it's just magnificent.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> ....


Learn http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm don't ignore history. Don'y ignore the killing of innocent jews by christianity (Using Corrupted Bible).


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

@TheDarkGreninja: That was not my interpretation, that God killed them! (I am fully aware that God/Allah cannot kill anything)

Please read the above from Haider Raza:

"When we read the verses before and after, we get a clear picture that this was a battle. The killing that is mentioned in Q. 8:12 is on the battlefield, which took place 1400 years ago. When we read Q. 8:17 it says, that it was not Muhammed (or his companions) who killed the enemy, but it was Him (God) who had done so. Furthermore, Q 8:19 offers peace to the enemy, if the enemy desist from hostilities against Muslims,"

Regards,
Kirky


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> ....


Now debate is about hitler why ignoring that? We already explained too much now it's your time to explain. It will be fair right?


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> @TheDarkGreninja: That was not my interpretation, that God killed them! (I am fully aware that God/Allah cannot kill anything)
> 
> Please read the above from Haider Raza:
> 
> ...



Erm, that's wrong.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 9, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> Learn http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm don't ignore history. Don'y ignore the killing of innocent jews by christianity (Using Corrupted Bible).


Fuck you, don't ignore history and today.
You are the least appropriate person to call Germans not to ignore history.
It is not Japan here, Germans have never turned their sight from history, never avoided carrying responsibility and learning not to repeat history.
For the sake of god, don't ignore the present, you brick of shit.
Stop idolising Christianity on your own and putting your words on my mouth as if it represented me.
You are more Christian than I am, to begin with.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> ....


https://discover-the-truth.com/2014...o-disbelieve-therefore-strike-off-their-heads

Lets now have debate about hilter right?


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

@Totalnsanity: Yeah....and the Irish IRA was also a Christian Terrorist group... but... noone nowadays comes even close to the muslims regarding terrorism! 

@the DarkGreninja: Christianity *had* a pretty violent *past*. Jep.... HAD and PAST. So did the Italians, the Japanese and many many more... Why should I fight someone who in the distant past commited atrocities? I don't think a crusader or inquisitor will ever threaten my life...
I'm concerned for the now and the future...



Haider Raza said:


> Hitler is not your idol? What a joke! A german saying hitler is not his idol...? (A lie I guess) Also ISIS is not there yet ISIS is 90% low at innocent killing then Hitler. So my point was what verse of the Bible did hitler used to kill Millions of Jews?



Maybe you should learn more about the present???? History is nice and fine, and I do believe you know about it...but come on.... I so hope that is irony :-)

Regards,

Kirky


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> ....


What about 9/11 you still use that even it's history. Killing is killing. Compare the hitler killing to ISIS you'll know how low ISIS is going with the numbers in there whole 18years of time. I'm not supporting ISIS just explaining. Now don't take this out of context.


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> @Totalnsanity: Yeah....and the Irish IRA was also a Christian Terrorist group... but... noone nowadays comes even close to the muslims regarding terrorism!
> 
> @the DarkGreninja: Christianity *had* a pretty violent *past*. Jep.... HAD and PAST. So did the Italians, the Japanese and many many more... Why should I fight someone who in the distant past commited atrocities? I don't think a crusader or inquisitor will ever threaten my life...
> I'm concerned for the now and the future...
> ...




It's not ironic.
Anyway, you're suggesting Islam is violent based on what it is, are you not? Then are you not also suggesting that, in comparison, Christianity is less violent? When clearly that is not the case when all the deaths in the name of Islam in history add up to 2 million whereas for Christianity it adds to 15 million.

To say that ISIS are following the book they believe in just isn't true. Mostly proven when the bastards kill innocent people.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

New nazi cult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism


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## John_Kirky (Jun 9, 2017)

9/11 is history yes.... could I have did in 9/11 if I had made a trip to the US in 2011: YES
could I have been thrown in a KZ by Hitler: NO... because I'm not that old :-)

The muslim terror is happening NOW and it is happening in my time, so it's relevant for me.
Christian terror (at least on a wide scale) is NOT happening im my time and/or country. So I condemn it, but why should I fight against something already over???

Regards,

Kirky

As for dicussing Hitler... WHY??ß He was a murdering Madmen who should have been killed much earlier...and all his Nazi goons with him...I think there's nothing to discuss. We both agree (and he was religously motivated too)


edit: I meant of course 2001, not 2011...


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 9, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> What about 9/11 you still use that even it's history. Killing is killing. Compare the hitler killing to ISIS you'll know how low ISIS is going with the numbers in there whole 18years of time. I'm not supporting ISIS just explaining. Now don't take this out of context.


Where do *I* use that?
Please tell me, let me know?
I care about the present and the future, something that happened 16 years ago, I understand it may still feel heavy for people in New York and the USA, but I am not thinking about 9/11 with regret or vengeance in mind as you suggest, I am troubled in any case by the problems and dangers of today, like the one that gives the title to this thread.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

sarkwalvein said:


> *I care about the present and the future*


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism This is the future! How nazi advanced to neo nazi (LOL!) soon they will get out to start the hitler process again. Stay tuned till then.


@John_Kirky


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 9, 2017)

Haider Raza said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism This is the future! How nazi advanced to neo nazi (LOL!) soon they will get out to start the hitler process again. Stay tuned till then.
> 
> 
> @John_Kirky


Well, that may be your future, not mine.


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## Vipera (Jun 9, 2017)

John_Kirky said:


> @Haider Raza: Hitler is not my idol :-)
> 
> And yes the OLD Testament of the bible contains many archaiv, racist and bloody commands to kill other people. And I'm really behind the idea to ban that book too (or at least the OLD, the one before Jesus)
> 
> ...


It's called "old" for a reason. In Christianity, it only has a historical value.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 9, 2017)

Vipera said:


> It's called "old" for a reason. In Christianity, it only has a historical value.


Well... except for the fundamentalists that believe every letter in the Bible is the Word of God breathed

I used to be one of those. I'm not proud of It, though. It's probably why I'm so sympathetic towards Islam, because it's easy to see how just about any religion can become corrupted when a percentage of its following makes literal translation their law


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## TheDarkGreninja (Jun 9, 2017)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well... except for the fundamentalists that believe every letter in the Bible is the Word of God breathed
> 
> I used to be one of those. I'm not proud of It, though. It's probably why I'm so sympathetic towards Islam, because it's easy to see how just about any religion can become corrupted when a percentage of its following makes literal translation their law



When the quran is written in the form of poetry, should it be taken literally?
After all, poetry is rarely literal.
Of course, there are literal commandments but I don't understand how fighting the west equates to fighting some tribe because they kicked you out of their cities and went on to kill your people.


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## Haider Raza (Jun 9, 2017)

Soon german t.v commercials will be like, Buy one Neo Natzi uniform & get one Jew killer gun for free! Additional 40% off for christian priests.
Heil Neo Natzi & neo natzi band will start singing in the end.


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## raulpica (Jun 9, 2017)

And this is why we can't have any kind of thread which mentions religion on GBAtemp.

Locked.


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