# The European Parliament just approved Article 13



## WiiUBricker (Mar 26, 2019)

Press Release
 Source Article
 Via Reddit

In favor: 348
Against: 274

So what does this mean? Basically it means once Article 13 (now called Article 17) goes into effect, platform holders like youtube are directly liable for any copyright infringing content posted by their users. Users can’t post copyrighted material without a distribution license from the copyright holder. This likely forces platforms to use unreliable filters to protect themselves which can result in all sorts of problems.


----------



## smileyhead (Mar 26, 2019)

Well shit


----------



## DeoNaught (Mar 26, 2019)

Non-commercials aren't affected 


> The text also specifies that uploading works to online encyclopedias in a non-commercial way, such as Wikipedia, or open source software platforms, such as GitHub, will automatically be excluded from the scope of this directive. Start-up platforms will be subject to lighter obligations than more established ones.



and they made sure memes are safe(?)


> Uploading protected works for quotation, criticism, review, caricature, parody or pastiche has been protected even more than it was before, ensuring that memes and Gifs will continue to be available and shareable on online platforms.



I do feel like youtube still might stop streaming to Europe, because this makes them more vulnerable, and people can take more money from them with A13


> Authors and performers will be able to claim additional remuneration from the distributor exploiting their rights when the remuneration originally agreed is disproportionately low when compared to the benefits derived by the distributer


----------



## x65943 (Mar 26, 2019)

For all its benefits bringing people together and creating a strong union on the European continent, the EU parliament is still just another legislative body swayed by lobbyists with deep pockets

Sucks that things go this way

To quote Andrew Jackson
"John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it."


----------



## WiiUBricker (Mar 26, 2019)

Also be sure not to post any roms , hacks or apps with “borrowed” code on gbatemp or else Costello can be made liable for it


----------



## linuxares (Mar 26, 2019)

WiiUBricker said:


> Also be sure not to post any roms , hacks or apps with “borrowed” code on gbatemp or else Costello can be made liable for it


GBAtemp isn't a EU site. Problem solved!


----------



## tech3475 (Mar 26, 2019)

WiiUBricker said:


> Also be sure not to post any roms , hacks or apps with “borrowed” code on gbatemp or else Costello can be made liable for it



Do you have a license for your avatar?



linuxares said:


> GBAtemp isn't a EU site. Problem solved!



I can see it still affecting foreign sites such as GDPR did.


----------



## linuxares (Mar 26, 2019)

tech3475 said:


> Do you have a license for your avatar?
> 
> 
> 
> I can see it still affecting foreign sites such as GDPR did.


Then I hope the world blocks EU citizens. That would shake things up a bit.


----------



## x65943 (Mar 26, 2019)

linuxares said:


> Then I hope the world blocks EU citizens. That would shake things up a bit.


Europeans are going to have to start using vpns for everyday media consumption like the Chinese before this is all said and done


----------



## linuxares (Mar 26, 2019)

x65943 said:


> Europeans are going to have to start using vpns for everyday media consumption like the Chinese before this is all said and done


Welp... my router can use VPNs already so.... I'm all good


----------



## Owenge (Mar 26, 2019)

*oh fuck fuck fuck fuck shit shit fuuuuck*


----------



## Owenge (Mar 26, 2019)

-snip-


----------



## WiiUBricker (Mar 26, 2019)

linuxares said:


> GBAtemp isn't a EU site. Problem solved!


It’s hosted on french servers, last I checked.

Edit: Scratch that. Looks like gbatemp moved from the EU to the US at some point.


----------



## Deleted User (Mar 26, 2019)

Fuck the European Union, I never voted to be in it, I'd vote to leave.

I do not acknowledge the EU as a body governing over me.


----------



## tech3475 (Mar 26, 2019)

linuxares said:


> Then I hope the world blocks EU citizens. That would shake things up a bit.



It may happen with certain sites like with GDPR, but if a site has a relatively large European audience then they may consider the cost of any filters (both financially and practically) minor in comparison ala Youtube.


----------



## b17bomber (Mar 26, 2019)

And I'm proud to be an American
Where at least I know I'm free


----------



## Phenj (Mar 26, 2019)

x65943 said:


> Europeans are going to have to start using vpns for everyday media consumption like the Chinese before this is all said and done


That's just not true lmao

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



StarGazerTom said:


> Fuck the European Union, I never voted to be in it, I'd vote to leave.
> 
> I do not acknowledge the EU as a body governing over me.


get over it :^)


----------



## Doran754 (Mar 26, 2019)

Who cares about freedom of speech and internet censorship when we have the benefit of 5 unelected presidents who can't be removed passing laws in a different country that affects me. Yay. Wish the queen would prorogue parliament until the 12th of April already ffs.


----------



## Phenj (Mar 26, 2019)

inb4 this thread turns into a EU-hate topic sponsored by /pol/


----------



## CORE (Mar 26, 2019)

This is why there is Brexit!


----------



## Deleted User (Mar 26, 2019)

Phenj said:


> inb4 this thread turns into a EU-hate topic sponsored by /pol/


Everyone who disagree's with me is a Nazi ;_;


----------



## Phenj (Mar 26, 2019)

StarGazerTom said:


> Everyone who disagree's with me is a Nazi ;_;


are you implying that pol is related to nazism? You are the one saying that, not me :^


----------



## KingVamp (Mar 26, 2019)

First net neutrality and now this.


----------



## Godofcheese (Mar 26, 2019)

I should start looking for a nice VPN


----------



## Deleted User (Mar 26, 2019)

Phenj said:


> are you implying that pol is related to nazism? You are the one saying that, not me :^


Anytime someone mentions pol, its cus they're being Nazi's, i.e: I don't like what they're saying.

If all you're gonna do is tell people to "get over it" and try and flip stuff on others, it shows your complete immaturity, so kindly sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.


----------



## bodefuceta (Mar 26, 2019)

I really hope content providers block the EU alone instead of removing select content for all countries.


----------



## WiiUBricker (Mar 26, 2019)

CORE said:


> This is why there is Brexit!


Brexit people have more things to worry about than that tho.


----------



## FAST6191 (Mar 26, 2019)

CORE said:


> This is why there is Brexit!


https://www.theweek.co.uk/92571/uk-porn-block-digital-economy-act-to-limit-access-to-adult-sites

OP's stuff is still somewhat abstract. UK politico's idiocy is set to come in effect before long.


----------



## Viri (Mar 26, 2019)

CORE said:


> This is why there is Brexit!


EU law is shit, but UK isn't any better. Better watch what you say on social media, or your passive aggressive Scotland Yard will kick your door in, and arrest you for hate speech.

Looks like part of the UK gov is okay with this, as they wanted it.



Spoiler



The list of shame.UK MEPs who voted to kill internet freedom with #Article13If Brexit is betrayed and we have a European Parliament election, UKIP is ready to unseat them all, develop a Digital Bill of Rights and protect the people from greedy corporations and censorship. pic.twitter.com/M5X2r4QJyx— UK Independence Party (@UKIP) March 26, 2019


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 26, 2019)

https://gbatemp.net/threads/european-parliament-passed-article-13-the-copyright-filter-one.517849/

https://gbatemp.net/threads/wikipedia-shuts-down-in-germany-for-24-hours.534007/#post-8562310

How surprising.......

Even now its too late....
People had all time of the world to to do something against this.....

And now all react like "oh my god on 24th december is christmas..."


----------



## x65943 (Mar 26, 2019)

alexander1970 said:


> https://gbatemp.net/threads/european-parliament-passed-article-13-the-copyright-filter-one.517849/
> 
> https://gbatemp.net/threads/wikipedia-shuts-down-in-germany-for-24-hours.534007/#post-8562310
> 
> ...


I get your point, but also December 24 is Christmas Eve

And what were people supposed to do? There were protests and sites went down - do you want armed insurrection?


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 26, 2019)

If the people around the world are so "united" as in social medias splurged,then YES there are other ways.



P.S. in Austria is 24th Christmas day.


----------



## x65943 (Mar 26, 2019)

alexander1970 said:


> If the people around the world are so "united" as in social medias splurged,then YES there are other ways.


Like what?


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 26, 2019)

Only to show that we are really united.If

- in Austria all 8.822.267 all residents stands in front of their goverment building(s)
- in Germany all 83.000.000 residents stands in front of their goverment building(s)
- the ~400 mio. residents from all other countires in the cronyism club called EU stands in front of their goverment building(s)

then i´ll be surprised that NOTHING changes.

But i´m only a little dreamer.....


----------



## Viri (Mar 26, 2019)

alexander1970 said:


> https://gbatemp.net/threads/european-parliament-passed-article-13-the-copyright-filter-one.517849/
> 
> https://gbatemp.net/threads/wikipedia-shuts-down-in-germany-for-24-hours.534007/#post-8562310
> 
> ...


Wow, I can't think of a time where the US did something like that. The worst thing I can think of was when Comcast throttled torrent sites, or when Verizon went to war with Netflix, and pseudo throttled Netflix's bandwidth.


----------



## notimp (Mar 26, 2019)

:/

Not much more to say.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 26, 2019)

I can see watching a couple random episodes of American Dad on Youtube, but for the majority of people I doubt this is going to change anything in terms of where they access their "copyrighted" materials.


----------



## notimp (Mar 26, 2019)

alexander1970 said:


> If the people around the world are so "united" as in social medias splurged,then YES there are other ways.


Neh. You'd have to get them on the streets for that. Issue too complicated. They'll realize what happened in 3-5 years, and think "its supposed to be that way now".

Same as usual. 

The real funny bit is, that no one cares about european media production as far as mass piracy is concerned. So its really a law for the US content industry in europe. And for news outlets. That are big enough.

Its a joke. Lets route around it.


----------



## Ryccardo (Mar 26, 2019)

Meh, it's also the law that drivers are supposed to respect speed limits, and the only effect of that law is increased brake wear and collision risk where cameras are located


----------



## Doran754 (Mar 26, 2019)

b17bomber said:


> And I'm proud to be an American
> Where at least I know I'm free





Viri said:


> EU law is shit, but UK isn't any better. Better watch what you say on social media, or your passive aggressive Scotland Yard will kick your door in, and arrest you for hate speech.
> 
> Looks like part of the UK gov is okay with this, as they wanted it.
> 
> ...



Yes uk law is pretty stupid right now. The difference is we can elect people who will stand to change this. For example UKIP have said they'll remove the BBC license fee if they get elected. Who do I remove from the 28 different countries right now represented who voted for this shitshow.


----------



## Technicmaster0 (Mar 26, 2019)

I'm strongly against violence but my impression that only violent demonstrations actually work hardens all the time.
We were 200.000 people in Germany alone who demonstrated against art. 13 but the politicians didn't care. And then they say that the outcome was a fucking "win for democracy". These politicians don't care for democracy at all! No one demonstrated for the reform! How is that a win for the democracy?
Seriously, what should so many poeple do to influence the politicians (and it's their job to represent the interest of the people)? The only way I currently see would be burning cars and thrown rocks against policemen.


----------



## notimp (Mar 26, 2019)

Ryccardo said:


> Meh, it's also the law that drivers are supposed to respect speed limits, and the only effect of that law is increased brake wear and collision risk where cameras are located


Also wear and tear, and emissions, and noise pollution. Those three Im certain of.


----------



## Viri (Mar 26, 2019)

Well, this is what happens when pretty much senior citizens are in charge of your internet laws, lols.


----------



## LoganJones (Mar 26, 2019)

It's authoritarianism. The government decides everything for its people through its governing body, and the people have no say in the matter. I feel bad for all you Europeans. You are all not just EU citizens, you are all peoples of unique countries.


----------



## Viri (Mar 26, 2019)

I guess VPNs are about to become really popular in Europe in 2 years.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 26, 2019)

LoganJones said:


> It's authoritarianism. The government decides everything for its people through its governing body, and the people have no say in the matter. I feel bad for all you Europeans. You are all not just EU citizens, you are all peoples of unique countries.


Peoples of unique countries which elected terrible representatives for the most part, it would seem.  Not that the US has been any better in regard to our federal government lately.


----------



## spotanjo3 (Mar 26, 2019)

The future sucks! So is the World gone berserk due to the global warming.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 26, 2019)

azoreseuropa said:


> The future sucks! So is the World gone berserk due to the global warming.


Lol, global warming is definitely going to affect more than just internet laws.  I expect most of the world will go full fascist once droughts and natural disasters start displacing tens of millions of people.  Especially because the world has decided to be reactionary rather than proactive in handling the problem.


----------



## Idontknowwhattoputhere (Mar 26, 2019)

To all you yankees out there
This will affect you


----------



## LoganJones (Mar 26, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Peoples of unique countries which elected terrible representatives for the most part, it would seem.  Not that the US has been any better in regard to our federal government lately.


Um, the MEPs are not democratically elected by their own representative people. Rather, they are chosen by their own party.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 26, 2019)

Idontknowwhattoputhere said:


> To all you yankees out there
> This will affect you


No it won't, but we've already got pieces of shit like Ajit Pai sabotaging our internet regulations in different ways.



LoganJones said:


> Um, the MEPs are not democratically elected by their own representative people. Rather, they are chosen by their own party.


So they elect representatives to choose representatives.  Same thing essentially, just a bit more roundabout.


----------



## LoganJones (Mar 26, 2019)

Xzi said:


> No it won't, but we've already got pieces of shit like Ajit Pai sabotaging our internet regulations in different ways.
> 
> 
> So they elect representatives to elect representatives.  Same thing essentially, just a bit more roundabout.





Xzi said:


> No it won't, but we've already got pieces of shit like Ajit Pai sabotaging our internet regulations in different ways.
> 
> 
> So they elect representatives to choose representatives.  Same thing essentially, just a bit more roundabout.


And undemocratic.


----------



## Idontknowwhattoputhere (Mar 26, 2019)

Xzi said:


> No it won't, but we've already got pieces of shit like Ajit Pai sabotaging our internet regulations in different ways.
> 
> 
> So they elect representatives to choose representatives.  Same thing essentially, just a bit more roundabout.


Yes it would affect you
Indirectly


----------



## Xzi (Mar 26, 2019)

LoganJones said:


> And undemocratic.


I agree, but because of the electoral college, we've got essentially the same system here in America.  Just nobody willing to say, "hey, maybe this system is a bit too archaic and should be updated."


----------



## Ryccardo (Mar 26, 2019)

Xzi said:


> So they elect representatives to choose representatives.  Same thing essentially, just a bit more roundabout.


Not that the number of layers matters, since they have no duty to actually represent the majority's interest (or their electoral promises)

Only a few years/decades more for the internet being recognized beyond any doubt to be a necessity, and direct democracy would become reasonably achievable - that is, of course, if "they" had interest in letting it become so...


----------



## Doran754 (Mar 26, 2019)

The EU.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 27, 2019)

shamzie said:


> The EU.
> 
> View attachment 162071


Basically, the EU is to individual European countries what the federal government is to the individual states in the US.  I can see the reasons why some people wouldn't like it, but I can also see the reasons for why it might be better than having a mish-mash of a billion different laws governing different countries in the same region.  Ultimately ISPs would likely follow whichever laws are the strictest for the region regardless, in order to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.


----------



## gman666 (Mar 27, 2019)

Just insane how much companies and special interest are willing to go to strip away freedom of expression and even shift ownership away from culture/individuals. Good luck enforcing such a broad law...


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 27, 2019)

Oh look at that, politicians being a bunch of inept, out-of-touch assholes.


----------



## Captain_N (Mar 27, 2019)

And this is why less government is better. Trying to get dumb asses to understand that is the problem.


----------



## notimp (Mar 27, 2019)

Viri said:


> Well, this is what happens when pretty much senior citizens are in charge of your internet laws, lols.


Demographic curve. Cant do anything about it. Our most tech forward publically known politician in the EU (Jan Albrecht) got promoted to stare at cows in germany (MInistery of energy transition, agriculture, environment and digitization (suuure) in Schleswig-Holstein) Paid better I presume...

Also this was an initiative of the german publishing lobby (lobbying is something normal, remember that kids, its just that the people with money have more get togethers, access and legislation drafts to share with politicians, which is something thats "wanted" because the publishing industry especially must be able to create then-ish jobs over the next 50 years... Look up Matthias Döpfner. And now that we have upload filters, artists surely will be able to make money again... (What?)).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> Basically, the EU is to individual European countries what the federal government is to the individual states in the US.  I can see the reasons why some people wouldn't like it, but I can also see the reasons for why it might be better than having a mish-mash of a billion different laws governing different countries in the same region.  Ultimately ISPs would likely follow whichever laws are the strictest for the region regardless, in order to avoid stepping on anyone's toes.


Yes, but. There is a regular thing, where parties in their home countries represent one stance, and in the EU they vote entirely different. Then their stance in the home country gets spread by media (as it should be) and their stance in the EU doest reach any of the citizens. And there is a thing, that topics on the EU level get hardly discussed in the nation states, because their journalist usually arent where legislation happens. (Laugh about it in the age of the internet, but it has an effect.)) We call that (and the fact that the parliament cant draft legislation, only vote on existing one) a deficit in democracy. And its known throughout the member states that thats a thing. And we all swallow it, because a larger political union is needed, at least on trade and financial politics. Then article 13 happens, and I personally am not part taking in the next EU elections because of it. Call that democracy?


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 27, 2019)

But the prettiest thing about is:

WE elect the government.
And yes,i hear them crying,millions and millions: "I´m not.I don´t go to any election."
Great,thats the solution anyway.


----------



## notimp (Mar 27, 2019)

It is in this specific case.

EU has a lack of democratic accountability and legitimization. A severe lack. Like its actually not a legitimate representation in most countries, because the voting percentages are that low.

If people like me stop caring, as a direct result I strengthen conservative and right wing forces. I'm done getting effed over by the left. I'm certainly not voting for "something, something climate" - and in the end because of the demographic curve, a bunch of old guys eat my vote 2:1.

So I do the only thing I can do, and stop legitimizing this thing with my vote. Result will be a more conservative, more right wing government. If you are left leaning, and OK with that, because you think that the outcome will be that way anyhow, I encourage you not to vote as well.

If you are thinking about it and are not sure who to give your voice to - just dont vote this time.

Not voting matters..  (Because its a statistic people actually look at - in EU elections..  )

If you are german, you could also vote for die Partei, Die Partei, which is  a satirical comical act. That will have the same effect. (People seeing, that you are fed up with what you are getting, while not voting right wing).

In fact, let me double down. I pledge festively, not to vote in european elections for the next five years. Because of this decision.

Which now representitives try to get out of responsibility wise, by stating, that they have "pushed the wrong button". Ten have done so already.

If thats the democracy you would want to vote for - be my guest. Change from within - for my generation isnt possible. So I'm done with it.

Follow my example. 

Perfect timing as well btw. Piss off the left shortly before the upcoming elections.


----------



## notimp (Mar 27, 2019)

And please really look up Matthias Döpfner and Axel Springer, because they bought themselves the law almost single handedly.


----------



## matthi321 (Mar 27, 2019)

hopefully people will start to riot


----------



## notimp (Mar 27, 2019)

They wont.  And please dont use hopefully in combination with rioting.  (Second time in a few days that I could mention "Crowds and power" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowds_and_Power))


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 27, 2019)

matthi321 said:


> hopefully people will start to riot



Never.And again: never.

You have besetting voters (I´ve voted for the RED since 1867....)
You have "I couldn´t care less" voters
You have "Oh my god i´m sooo unsure...." voters
You have "I don´t elect" voters
You have "I make my cross for purpose on the RED cause i don´t like the Black" voters

that makes 98 % in total of the people who be autorized to vote.


----------



## the_randomizer (Mar 27, 2019)

Here's an unpopular opinion regarding this: 

Fuck all the countries' politicians and all the artists/musicians who voted for/are in favor of such copyright-sycophantic legislation


----------



## pohaxsf (Mar 27, 2019)

WiiUBricker said:


> Press Release
> Source Article
> Via Reddit
> 
> ...





StarGazerTom said:


> Everyone who disagree's with me is a Nazi ;_;


Jokes on u, Greece Eu parliament members voted support and only a nazist group of 3 people voted against.


----------



## Hambrew (Mar 27, 2019)

WiiUBricker said:


> Press Release
> Source Article
> Via Reddit
> 
> ...


well the EU is now:

closing itself from the world
approving essentially dmca but double the punishments and things to get dmca'd
...


----------



## notimp (Mar 29, 2019)

Let me introduce you to buyback deals.

The FAZ (reputable german newspaper) has a source stating, that Germany is upholding the article 13 compromise, because it has been part of a countertrade with france, so they agree to North Steam 2 being build (gas pipeline Germany needs).

Article in german. (via fefe) You could try to use google translate on it.
https://edition.faz.net/faz-edition/wirtschaft/2019-03-26/f30a5870c08cc1e1b4524c1be19d1faf/

Only one source.

Remember when I posted, that this is really a rule that isnt benificial for most of Europe (because we hardly have the artists lobby thats that impacted, by people uploading their work on youtube, and no one cares much about the publishing industry apart from themselves..)? Well apparently france cares. (Didn't know that before.)

German tech startups lobbied against the law, and had the OK, and support from the german minister of economic affairs, but got dropped one day later, with no reason given. Thats unusual.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Mar 30, 2019)

So, how you guys liking that NWO? Lol. Copyright is truly out of control. What started out as a means to protect the regular guy from big business taking their idea, has turned into exactly that. Whoever has the most money wins the property, whether they actually created it or not. You would think that in this age of technology where self-publication is easier than ever, that publishers, record labels, and their ilk would be obsolete by now, no longer lobbying and bribing and in the case of the DMCA, writing and enforcing draconion laws like this.

I think sweeping copyright reform is needed worldwide. Destroy all of it and start over.


----------



## Viri (Mar 30, 2019)

matthi321 said:


> hopefully people will start to riot


If you mean bitching online and Twitter, then sure!


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Mar 30, 2019)

This as many draconian legislation that has come in the past will be used for selective enforcement. You bet it will be only used when a they want to make an example of somebody. Stupid legislation is stupid though.


----------



## pitterpatter (Mar 30, 2019)

just nuke europe already


----------



## notimp (Mar 31, 2019)

Subtle Demise said:


> So, how you guys liking that NWO? Lol. Copyright is truly out of control. What started out as a means to protect the regular guy from big business taking their idea, has turned into exactly that. Whoever has the most money wins the property, whether they actually created it or not. You would think that in this age of technology where self-publication is easier than ever, that publishers, record labels, and their ilk would be obsolete by now, no longer lobbying and bribing and in the case of the DMCA, writing and enforcing draconion laws like this.
> 
> I think sweeping copyright reform is needed worldwide. Destroy all of it and start over.


Though so as well in the past, but no. Selfpublishing is not the solution.

Even with youtube - its the informal networks that gather audiences. Either the ones with former youth magazine backgrounds (the worst of the worst in content publishing..  ), or ones propped up by entirely informal groups of friends.

Sole content creators out there that made it work, are few and far in between. What publishers do on the PR side is actually needed. And if you arent willing to take over that part yourself as well - you dont get anywhere.

I now absolutely believe, that most authors and creators more likely would give away 70% of their entire revenue stream, than to have to bother with audience management.

Call them by different names ('networks') but publishers are there to stay.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 3, 2019)

Hello. 

Yes  i´m angry.

Censorship in the Internet is on the way my friends.

I no longer can access geckocodes.org & gamehacking.org.

THANK YOU EU.

I love it.Best i say goodbye before GBATemp is also "prohibited".

P.S. VPN Tool helps me but thats NOT the solution people !!!!


----------



## Viri (Apr 3, 2019)

alexander1970 said:


> I love it.Best i say goodbye before GBATemp is also "prohibited".
> 
> P.S. VPN Tool helps me but thats NOT the solution people !!!!


I heard VPNs are pretty nice!  I bet Nintendo is licking their lips at the thought of blocking this site in the EU. The site that was behind a lot of the hacks for a lot of their consoles!


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Apr 4, 2019)

This is no surprise. The EU does what they want but hey, you still have your "freedom", "democracy" and "security".


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> And this is why less government is better. Trying to get dumb asses to understand that is the problem.


Less government fixes nothing if you're electing the same incompetent individuals but just fewer of them.  It's about quality of leadership, not quantity.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Apr 4, 2019)

StarGazerTom said:


> kindly sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.


Language! *starts petition to add an explicit filter in the settings*


----------



## Captain_N (Apr 4, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Less government fixes nothing if you're electing the same incompetent individuals but just fewer of them.  It's about quality of leadership, not quantity.



Most of the individuals in the US government are not elected. The few elected officials are responsible for placing others in power. The problem is there are to many government agencies. Its bloated like code in arc survival. When there is a larger federal government there are more unelected officials present. The federal government was not supposed to be as large as it is now. The state and local government ware supposed to handle more then the federal government. 

The federal government is like the teachers on the playground. The students are the state officials. There is not supposed to be more teachers then students.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> Most of the individuals in the US government are not elected. The few elected officials are responsible for placing others in power. The problem is there are to many government agencies. Its bloated like code in arc survival. When there is a larger federal government there are more unelected officials present. The federal government was not supposed to be as large as it is now. The state and local government ware supposed to handle more then the federal government.
> 
> The federal government is like the teachers on the playground. The students are the state officials. There is not supposed to be more teachers then students.


The problem is picking and choosing what to cut to make government smaller.  The vast majority of government money goes to the military and subsidies for big businesses.  Cutting/redirecting a lot of those funds I'd have no issue with, but Republicans in government always want to go after healthcare and welfare programs first instead.


----------



## Captain_N (Apr 4, 2019)

Xzi said:


> The problem is picking and choosing what to cut to make government smaller.  The vast majority of government money goes to the military and subsidies for big businesses.  Cutting/redirecting a lot of those funds I'd have no issue with, but Republicans in government always want to go after healthcare and welfare programs first instead.



The cuts will have to be gradual. We all know you can just take away programs. That will cause one hell of a problem. It would take 50 years probably.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> The cuts will have to be gradual. We all know you can just take away programs. That will cause one hell of a problem. It would take 50 years probably.


The other problem is, if we're being forthright, there is no party of 'small government' any more.  GWB set the precedent that Republicans would start out-spending Democrats, and Trump has gleefully kept that precedent going.  He's added $2 trillion to the national debt, for a record-high $22 trillion overall debt right now.  Republicans love big government, as long as the money flows through it and back to in to the right pockets, aka their corporate donors/lobbyists.


----------



## notimp (Apr 4, 2019)

National debt doesnt matter to the US. At least not at the moment.

Oil can only be paid for in USD. So there is always ample demand for USD as a currency, even if the US would inflate the dollar like crazy. (They won't because they'll never need to.)

That way they always have foreign currencies for international trade purposes - should they need them, so domestically they could pretty much do whatever they want with their money politics, and not face any repercussions.

Becoming a debter to the US really is all about buying good standing and influence at this point.

This is a special perk, that comes with being the worlds empire/protectorate force ("owning"/protecting all the trade routes).

That way you make it to "world reserve currency" status. Which is just another layer of "you can do whatever", the world will still need and buy USD.  See: https://www.ft.com/content/5054627c-e1b5-11e8-a8a0-99b2e340ffeb


----------



## Jayro (Apr 4, 2019)

Yeah, good luck trying to police the internet...


----------



## Subtle Demise (Apr 4, 2019)

Xzi said:


> The other problem is, if we're being forthright, there is no party of 'small government' any more.  GWB set the precedent that Republicans would start out-spending Democrats, and Trump has gleefully kept that precedent going.  He's added $2 trillion to the national debt, for a record-high $22 trillion overall debt right now.  Republicans love big government, as long as the money flows through it and back to in to the right pockets, aka their corporate donors/lobbyists.


You know there's more than just two parties right? People just aren't educated enough to realize that and keep voting for the same two shitty ones. Since we won't ever see anarchists or minarchists on a ballot for obvious reasons, you get the smallest government with the Libertarian party. Of course they believe in strict adherence to the first and second amendments, so you probably wouldn't be a fan.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2019)

Subtle Demise said:


> You know there's more than just two parties right? People just aren't educated enough to realize that and keep voting for the same two shitty ones. Since we won't ever see anarchists or minarchists on a ballot for obvious reasons, you get the smallest government with the Libertarian party. Of course they believe in strict adherence to the first and second amendments, so you probably wouldn't be a fan.


There are only two established parties in the US.  The Independent party is not well-established, and the same is true of the Libertarian party, which at this point has nearly been swallowed whole by Trump's brand of neo-conservatism.

We're certainly in need of more established political parties in this country, but I don't expect it to happen until we change our system to ranked-choice voting.  I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Apr 4, 2019)

Xzi said:


> There are only two established parties in the US. The Independent party is not well-established, and the same is true of the Libertarian party, which at this point has nearly been swallowed whole by Trump's brand of neo-conservatism.


Well, you know how to establish a party right? You actually have to vote for it! Do you care about the environment? Vote Green! Don't expect the the Democrats to do anything about it. Do you believe in gun ownership and freedom of speech? Libertarian is the obvious answer. Trump has already proven that Republicans don't care about protecting gun ownership. Hell, we even have an official Socialist party if that's your thing. My point is spreading the partisan propaganda isn't ever going to change anything. The past 100+ years of our history has shown that Democrats and Republicans are just two sides of the same coin and everything will keep on the way it has been until people actually become the change they want to see.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2019)

Subtle Demise said:


> Well, you know how to establish a party right? You actually have to vote for it!


Unfortunately it isn't that simple.  First past the post keeps us locked in the two-party system, and voting third party is tantamount to throwing your vote away as things sit now.  Ranked-choice voting would put far more third-party candidates in the spotlight, and give them a reasonable vote share that could actually threaten the other two parties.


----------



## the_randomizer (Apr 5, 2019)

Jayro said:


> Yeah, good luck trying to police the internet...



Lol that's cute, the people who voted in favor of this are all a bunch of old decrepit out-of-touch bastards. Fuck the EU government.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 5, 2019)

Hello.

In the light of current events:

Antitrust: Commission sends Statements of Objections to Valve and five videogame publishers on “geo-blocking” of PC video games

https://gbatemp.net/threads/antitru...o-valve-and-five-videogame-publishers.535253/


----------



## the_randomizer (Apr 5, 2019)

alexander1970 said:


> Hello.
> 
> In the light of current events:
> 
> ...



Wow, so those dumbass politicians are capable of showing some semblance of brain cells?


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 8, 2019)

Subtle Demise said:


> Democrats and Republicans are just two sides of the same coin


I'm surprised that Xzi didn't call this out as "both sides nonsense".


----------



## kevin corms (Apr 8, 2019)

EU is becoming more and more communist by the minute, scary stuff.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



KingVamp said:


> I'm surprised that Xzi didn't call this out as "both sides nonsense".


To be fair, I cant tell a big difference between a clinton and bush in practice. Its not really the parties, its the evil people who often get to be in charge.


----------



## Viri (Apr 8, 2019)

Jayro said:


> Yeah, good luck trying to police the internet...


The UK is already trying something similar. This is sure an easy way to get your country geo blocked, lol.
https://www.cnet.com/news/uk-to-keep-social-networks-in-check-with-internet-safety-regulator/


----------



## SG854 (Apr 8, 2019)

European Parliment but lets talk about America. The comment section.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 10, 2019)

KingVamp said:


> I'm surprised that Xzi didn't call this out as "both sides nonsense".


Well it is.  

Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/suchnerve/status/1114586840294670342


----------



## SG854 (Apr 10, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well it is.
> 
> https://twitter.com/suchnerve/status/1114586840294670342


You can add censorship, sending people to the hospital, harassing harmless people, hating whites (literal racism), don’t like racial mixing with whites, to the far left. They are literally the same as the far right. U.S. security agencies lists Antifa as domestic terrorists.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 10, 2019)

SG854 said:


> You can add censorship, sending people to the hospital, harassing harmless people, hating whites (literal racism), don’t like racial mixing with whites, to the far left. They are literally the same as the far right. U.S. security agencies lists Antifa as domestic terrorists.


Antifa are not far left politically, sorry to burst your bubble.  They're anarchists.  They believe in no political structure whatsoever.  The political far left has leaders like Bernie Sanders and Andrew Yang.  Neither of whom is Antifa, certainly.


----------



## SG854 (Apr 10, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Antifa are not far left politically, sorry to burst your bubble.  They're anarchists.  They believe in no political structure whatsoever.  The political far left has leaders like Bernie Sanders and Andrew Yang.  Neither of whom is Antifa, certainly.


Andrew Yang is somewhat far left on some policies and somewhat center on others. He supports UBI but doesn’t support minimum wage.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 10, 2019)

SG854 said:


> Andrew Yang is somewhat far left on some policies and somewhat center on others. He supports UBI but doesn’t support minimum wage.


Well you no longer really need a minimum wage with a well-implemented UBI.  The only jobs that won't be automated out of existence soon are creative and highly-skilled positions.  So companies will be forced to pay good wages in order to attract qualified candidates.  Yang is a forward-thinker in that regard.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 10, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well you no longer really need a minimum wage with a well-implemented UBI.  The only jobs that won't be automated out of existence soon are creative and highly-skilled positions.  So companies will be forced to pay good wages in order to attract qualified candidates.  Yang is a forward-thinker in that regard.


With UBI, it wouldn't be as needed. That said, a minimum wage would help protect people that still can and want to work.


----------



## SG854 (Apr 10, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well you no longer really need a minimum wage with a well-implemented UBI.  The only jobs that won't be automated out of existence soon are creative and highly-skilled positions.  So companies will be forced to pay good wages in order to attract qualified candidates.  Yang is a forward-thinker in that regard.


I like Yang. But I don’t think automation will be a problem the more I research it. 

This is long 150 pages. But if you skip to  1.1.1, it says automated vehicles will not significantly, if at all, impact truck driving jobs in the coming decade. It’s not meant to replace truck drivers but aid them, make their jobs easier, safer, and more efficient.

Preparing Workforce for Automated Vehicles


Only very few, less than 5% of jobs, can be fully automated. It’s on page 12, another long 160 page study. 60% of occupations, 1/3rd of constituent activities may be enhanced with automation but not fully replaced.

Jobs Lost, Jobs Gained: Workforce Transitions in a Time of Automation

The report also says, “Even with automation, the demand for work and workers, could increase as economies grow, partly fueled by productivity growth enabled by technological progress.” “This job growth can offset jobs lost to automation”


----------



## Xzi (Apr 10, 2019)

KingVamp said:


> With UBI, it wouldn't be as needed. That said, a minimum wage would help protect people that still can and want to work.


For sure, but let's be real: how many fast food workers are ready to quit their jobs yesterday if they started receiving $1000/mo?  Too many other service industry jobs are just as menial and demeaning, as well.  A lot of people would still want to work initially, until they realize they can spend that time on any hobby or talent they want; or exercise for that matter.



SG854 said:


> Only very few, less than 5% of jobs, can be fully automated.


I seriously doubt that, I've already seen self-checkouts overtaking human checkout lanes one at a time at grocery stores, as well as self-order kiosks at McDonald's near me.


----------



## SG854 (Apr 10, 2019)

KingVamp said:


> With UBI, it wouldn't be as needed. That said, a minimum wage would help protect people that still can and want to work.


The problem with minimum wage is you can just outright increase it to let’s say $15 people are demanding. You are doubling labor costs.

And another recent article in addition to other articles i’ve posted on this site before, minimum wage increase in New York leads to job loss and price hikes.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/45695/predictable-minimum-wage-increase-new-york-city-ashe-schow

Minimum wage increase has to be incremental, and can’t be applied to every city. You have to consider if there will be any negative effects. It depends on the situation, and city, if increasing minimum will benefit rather then harm. In some situations it’ll work and some others it won’t. And you can’t raise it too high either, that is also dependent on situation if you can or can’t.


----------



## SG854 (Apr 10, 2019)

Xzi said:


> For sure, but let's be real: how many fast food workers are ready to quit their jobs yesterday if they started receiving $1000/mo?  Too many other service industry jobs are just as menial and demeaning, as well.  A lot of people would still want to work initially, until they realize they can spend that time on any hobby or talent they want; or exercise for that matter.
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt that, I've already seen self-checkouts overtaking human checkout lanes one at a time at grocery stores, as well as self-order kiosks at McDonald's near me.


Fastfood joints aren’t the only employers. New jobs will be created with technology like they have on the past. Your problem and I see you dong this a lot is you don’t back what you say. You mostly function on theory. 

Whenever I link a study that proves what you want to believe you accept it. When I link a study that proves what you don’t want to believe you just ignore it, say that’s not going to happen, but don’t provide your own evidence to support what you say. 

Why do you believe that it’s not going to happen? What basis do you have rather then a gut feeling? How will UBI offset the very little job loss to automation that will happen? You don’t provide numbers, studies, you don’t go into details, you just say that not gunna happen because it feels like it won’t happens. That argument is not convincing.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 10, 2019)

SG854 said:


> Fastfood joints aren’t the only employers. New jobs will be created with technology like they have on the past.


Service industry jobs are over 70% of available jobs in the US.  Not many of them are more glamorous than fast food.  And yes, new jobs will be created through automation...for the people that monitor and service the robots when they need repairs.  I have an uncle that works this type of position already, actually.



SG854 said:


> You mostly function on theory.


It's a theory on the basis that big businesses will use any tactic at their disposal to increase profits.  So I'd say it's a theory based on fairly solid ground, particularly where the US is concerned.  Robot employees don't need breaks or vacation days, and they don't get sick.  Not to mention they can work 12 - 24 hours a day instead of 8.  Now you tell me: what about that is unappealing from a CEO/CFO's perspective?  Even if you take a UBI in to account, the average business would still have far less overhead and gain far more return on automation.


----------



## SG854 (Apr 11, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Service industry jobs are over 70% of available jobs in the US.  Not many of them are more glamorous than fast food.  And yes, new jobs will be created through automation...for the people that monitor and service the robots when they need repairs.  I have an uncle that works this type of position already, actually.
> 
> 
> It's a theory on the basis that big businesses will use any tactic at their disposal to increase profits.  So I'd say it's a theory based on fairly solid ground, particularly where the US is concerned.  Robot employees don't need breaks or vacation days, and they don't get sick.  Not to mention they can work 12 - 24 hours a day instead of 8.  Now you tell me: what about that is unappealing from a CEO/CFO's perspective?  Even if you take a UBI in to account, the average business would still have far less overhead and gain far more return on automation.


Shoot were going off topic again. Article 13 bad. 


How many % of the population you think will be automated out of existence? And how will that affect the economy when these people can't afford what the robots are producing? And how will corporations make money if people are out of work and not buying what they produce?


----------



## Xzi (Apr 11, 2019)

SG854 said:


> Shoot were going off topic again. Article 13 bad.
> 
> How many % of the population you think will be automated out of existence? And how will that affect the economy when these people can't afford what the robots are producing? And how will corporations make money if people are out of work and not buying what they produce?


Yeah definitely off-topic, but to answer your questions: I can't be sure what percentage exactly, but as I mentioned, there are a whole lot of low-skilled food service and retail positions that could be automated away easily.  It's just a matter of the timing, it may not be a big issue until 2028 or slightly later.  As to your last question: that's the reason a UBI would be necessary, because a consumer economy collapses if consumers no longer have any spending power in the majority.


----------



## the_randomizer (Apr 12, 2019)

Everyone who voted for Article 13 needs to be dragged out into the streets and gagged.


----------



## notimp (May 1, 2019)

notimp said:


> National debt doesnt matter to the US. At least not at the moment.
> 
> Oil can only be paid for in USD. So there is always ample demand for USD as a currency, even if the US would inflate the dollar like crazy. (They won't because they'll never need to.)
> 
> ...


Ups, the US are getting f'cked.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...s-toothless/articleshow/69095599.cms?from=mdr


----------



## notimp (May 3, 2019)

The swiss just have successfully rejected something along the lines of Article 13. 
https://www.digitale-gesellschaft.c...recht-in-der-schweiz-zivilgesellschaft-wirkt/

Mentioned here just for symbolic meaning.


----------



## notimp (Jul 23, 2019)

notimp said:


> Ups, the US are getting f'cked.
> 
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...s-toothless/articleshow/69095599.cms?from=mdr


And here is how:
https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...ne-marie-slaughter-and-elina-ribakova-2019-07

(You've got to follow stories after their initial headlines, reminder.  )


----------

