# About the current riots



## Waygeek (May 31, 2020)

Well, I lie. I did actually expect a thread, trying to pin the violence purely on antifa or something. But instead to see the topic ignored completely despite several US cities being in flames and multiple other related protests happening right now across the world sure is something.

I'll start I guess.



Spoiler: Graphic images



Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1267021883938988038



Shooting bystanders now. Shooting press. Fuck all police.


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## leon315 (May 31, 2020)

You mean American Civil war 2020?


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## Waygeek (May 31, 2020)

It sure is looking that bad. Aren't their guns there to prevent tyranny? Well, I can say that what I'm seeing from the police very much looks like tyranny to me, maybe it's time citizens started firing back otherwise why have this legislature that has killed so many children.


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## Hanafuda (May 31, 2020)

Pin the violence purely on antifa?? No, not purely.


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## Fugelmir (May 31, 2020)

I saw the Chinese propaganda teasing the US about taking action against rioters while criticizing HK protests.  

American folks need to train themselves be strong when conscription starts


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## notimp (May 31, 2020)

Waygeek said:


> Well, I lie. I did actually expect a thread, trying to pin the violence purely on antifa or something. But instead to see the topic ignored completely despite


I did make a thread about it earlier though. 

We can go with yours though. 

This forum in general is pretty 'so, so' when it comes to following recent political events. I've complained about it in the past as well.  The general mode in here seems to be anything with Trump in it (or blatantly controversial), gets megathreads with 15+ pages, and on anything else - not so much.

But people in here are young, so thats not necessarily a negative. (Don't hold it against them.  )


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## izy (May 31, 2020)

meh politics and social unrest drama is everywhere not like a thread is needed


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## leon315 (May 31, 2020)

Fugelmir said:


> I saw the Chinese propaganda teasing the US about taking action against rioters while criticizing HK protests.
> 
> American folks need to train themselves be strong when conscription starts



I saw the USA propaganda teasing the China about taking action against rioters while criticizing USA protests.

Chinese folks need to train themselves be strong when conscription starts

Dude, see how It fits incredibly well, cauz it's the exact same things both gov did last week. lol


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## LightBeam (May 31, 2020)

Reminds me of what happened in France, seeing that happening in the US also horrifies me, I see that a lot on Twitter. Tho imo people in the US are responding with more violence and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.
And now I see people coming up to me and saying "what? You mean violence is normal?" Well yeah, the police act violently, people respond, I find it totally normal and understandable, I would even say inevitable. In France, the media hasn't stopped trying to make us believe that "violence isn't a solution, we're going to ban demonstrations because there are thugs, we have to go back to the democratic and republican debate" whereas as soon as people speak out in the street, boom in your face. There was once a grandmother who died while she was just looking out her window at the protest, because a cop shot her. When is that excusable? To shoot a grandmother who was watching what was going on outside her apartment? Do some people really expect that this won't lead to more violence?
Of course not, EVERYONE knows that people will want to become more violent after that, but it's just so they can say "ah but you're the one who came to hit me, so you can see we can't talk to you".
The more time goes by, the more I tell myself that this kind of bullshit can never be resolved without really, really going off the deep end. In the US it's always going faster than here, but if it's really going further in the US in terms of anti-police sentiment and revolts, it's going to go much faster in France too.

And there will always be people to say that if you have nothing to blame yourself for, you don't have to be afraid of the police, but if only that were true, then it wouldn't go that far...


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## Fugelmir (May 31, 2020)

leon315 said:
			
		

> I did make a thread about it earlier though.
> 
> Dude see how it fits incredibly well?)





Chinese conscription never stopped.


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## weatMod (May 31, 2020)

Waygeek said:


> Well, I lie. I did actually expect a thread, trying to pin the violence purely on antifa or something. But instead to see the topic ignored completely despite several US cities being in flames and multiple other related protests happening right now across the world sure is something.
> 
> I'll start I guess.
> 
> ...


press deserves to be shot though


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## Taleweaver (May 31, 2020)

Erm... I'll play the cynic here : the police shooting black people, uproar about it and a president who stirs things up even is what I've come to expect from the USA.

Here's the news for the upcoming days on your local propaganda channel :
'the police acts in good faith' 
'gun restriction is not the answer' 
'the protesters are the reason our corona infection rate is so high'


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## notimp (May 31, 2020)

weatMod said:


> press deserves to be shot though


Without press you get no 'impartial' coverage. Only pictures on twitter telling you the police shot a girl.

If thats what should drive societal change (pure emotionality condensed down to a subjective view, an image and 450 characters), we'd be changing very often.. 

Impartial doesnt mean 'always so', or that they have no opinion or bias, it just means, that they arent affiliated with the protesters, or police. And still report on stuff, because its their job - and not because, of a citizens duty, or something even more morally driven.

So no, press doesnt deserve to be shot. Its part of why protests even make sense. Otherwise no one would believe what the other side was asserting.


On rubber bullet to the head - if you compare that with police (= state) reaction to Vietnam protests in the 60s ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings ), democracies have come a long way.

Condensed: Mass behavior in crowds is not rational. Cant be reasoned with, stopped by arguing... So some element of 'force' is always needed if your sides job is to contain (different from supressing) it. In western europe police usually doesnt shoot, but uses human chains (signaling 'we are many as well'), transparent shields (circle in protest masses then push them back), teargas, and watercannons instead. No blood, same principle.


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## JuanBaNaNa (May 31, 2020)

Who is this serving?Who is this protecting? pic.twitter.com/IK8DkwLLUT— jordan (@JordanUhl) May 31, 2020




Spoiler: Off Topic Dyslexia thingy



My fucking dyslexia is making me read OP's user name as GayWeek


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## weatMod (May 31, 2020)

notimp said:


> Without press you get no 'impartial' coverage. Only pictures on twitter telling you the police shot a girl.
> 
> If thats what should drive societal change (pure emotionality condensed down to a subjective view, an image and 450 characters), we'd be changing very often..
> 
> ...


MSM is nothing but lies and propaganda, ,in the age of live streaming we don't need them
 the  heads of the social media companies that  keep deleting and censoring  deserve to be shot too though

imagine a society with out police without BLM/antifa/sgitators and without the  lying agitating media, i hope they all kill each other


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## notimp (May 31, 2020)

JuanMena said:


> Whos is this serving?
> Who is this protecting?
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1266917228752056320


As just stated, the polices job is not to protect in this case, but to assert coordinated 'counter pressure'.

Reasoning roughly goes, you dont want a mob 'ruling' parts of a town, or changing political structures. Really you dont.

But masses draw more masses, so letting that happen is important - because that - very strongly - signals to politicians, and other citizens, that 'something is wrong'.

Which is also why at some point, political leadership tries to 'dissolve' those mass events. But its too early for that at this stage. We should still be at 'containment' level strategies, which is fine. (Most mass events dissolve on their own once emotions could be discharged. People in power know that. Activists try everything on their side as well, to try to prolong the mass event (the longer it lasts, the more important it becomes) - "police so unfair, shooting at people buying groceries" is part of that narrative.

Thruth more often than not is - 'those situations get out of control - and when they do, even police stops acting rationally'.

Still most citizens would prefer, that there is some sort of police action. (vs. rioting, looting, ..)


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## notimp (May 31, 2020)

weatMod said:


> MSM is nothing but lies and propaganda, ,in the age of live streaming we don't need them


You need impartiality. Streams will be edited down. Footage will be selectively selected and repackaged, then reshared via social media.

(No one in the end watched the entire live stream.)

You need someone whos job it is to do that without 'being for or against' something (per definition).

Media is corrupt and not needed is a simplification and overexagerration, that serves people that usually dont pay for media (cable TV doesnt count), so it works with them especially well - as its telling them, no - what you do is perfect and the right thing.  You were right all along, dont change a thing.

Its not the tool (live streaming, ..) thats important here, its that you have 'someone' whos job it is to report 'impartially' (at least in their self image (code of conduct)). And its important that people believe in that as well (otherwise you have everlasting turf wars).

"You can believe what you see in a live stream, or on social media, or what feels right/true", is the more problematic notion.

Because people usually cant differentiate between PR and not-PR (even I have problems sometimes), and on social media, 'sensationalism' is the currency. Thats what gets you clicks, thats what gets you paid. With newspapers, there is at least a fraction of them (those that arent called yellow press or tabloids), that gets financing from readers wanting actual reporting and not just emotionality.

Democracy doesnt work without 'informed discussion' - and you need time for the 'informed' part to happen (everyone forming their opinion based on trying to deliberate whats best or true for them). Social media is almost the entire opposite. There you most often have 'how you should feel' in the title.

("Girl going shopping almost lost an eye.")

Thats not a replacement for media (process of trying to stay impartial and report on facts, as their job - if some outlet fails, and people notice, you have others, but at least the code of conduct needs to be there.)


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## CMDreamer (May 31, 2020)

This site is not the place to discuss this matters, as doing it will not get us to a point where our comments will decide on it (sadly).
There are many other better places to do so, that would allow for a better and more productive interchange of thinking and ideas.

And no, I'm not saying that what is happening should be banned and ignored everywhere and that common justice shouldn't be the main goal of this all, but this place is not about political, social, commercial things, even though sometimes the subject appears here and there, the logs would show us that we got nowhere on those threads, but most of the time to a non healty discussion and some others even to the point where offending comments are made to hide ignorance and/or rage.

Even so, we must not become part of the problem just by writing/hiding behind our computer screens, we must be an active part of this justice-seeking-movement, that would for sure mean something more tangible and valuable than our typing fingers.


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## weatMod (May 31, 2020)

notimp said:


> You need impartiality. Streams will be edited down. Footage will be selectively selected and repackaged, then reshared via social media.
> 
> (No one in the end watched the entire live stream.)
> 
> ...


"You need impartiality. Streams will be edited down. Footage will be selectively selected and repackaged, then reshared via social media."
this is exactly what the MSM does too thoug


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## notimp (May 31, 2020)

weatMod said:


> "You need impartiality. Streams will be edited down. Footage will be selectively selected and repackaged, then reshared via social media."
> this is exactly what the MSM does too thoug


Yes. Because people want the 3 minute version. (Thats what sells.)

Whats important is, that you have "someone that gets paid to do that, without being part of one side or the other" and that at least has a self image of "we are impartial (independent, ...)". And them openly saying so, and many people paying them for doing that, as a job.

Its not expected to always work. ("That is the paper (/online source) you can trust in".) So you need to have many of them. But all with this notion, that they will report impartially.

Or at least most.

If you're only making money on what gets most clicks - your reporting (and editing style..  ) will change. Which is why people giving money for the bundled 'service' (newspaper) is preferable over financed via an advertising model, or 'per story'. (Allows you to also report on things that arent popular.)


If one media outlet becomes "too popular", it gets more and more access to f.e. political power structures (think Marques Brownlee getting invited to industry events, and getting 'exclusives' before anyone else), which has an impact on their reporting (they dont want to loose that), you balance that out, by having many media outlets, not by calling them corrupt. 

Issue - with craigslist having made those types of adverts free, and Google and Facebook hogging mosts advertising spending, newspapers are a dying breed. And with them dies (at least self asserted) impartiality.

Short: Its about the process. (Self image, having editors (multiple people that read a story for plausability, fact check)...), not about the tool, or if the end product is a 3 min video or not. (There are 3min videos, and 3min videos (quality).)


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## phalk (May 31, 2020)

Now gbatemp is a political forum.
Cool.


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## Deleted User (May 31, 2020)

This is not the first time I see threads like this on this website. Are you coming here to relax, talk about video games and forget about the real world troubles or you want to upset everyone and talk about same thing we hear thousands of times a day all over the news! Why talk everywhere about things related to politics? You want to hear people opinions? Go and read YouTube comments.


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## notimp (May 31, 2020)

If you get past containment, then the interesting strategies start.  (Agent provocateurs, ...)

edit: I have a video for that as well. :


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## GBAer (May 31, 2020)

https://hoodsite.com/rioter-acciden...down-building-in-fayetteville-north-carolina/

COMEDY GOLD!


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## chrisrlink (May 31, 2020)

as such the insensitive person i am I'm quite enjoying the chaos and disorder as a teachable "I told you so" moment

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



GBAer said:


> https://hoodsite.com/rioter-acciden...down-building-in-fayetteville-north-carolina/
> 
> COMEDY GOLD!


notice the racism in the comment section of the article/video (most are white SN's from the comment) shows how much hate trump infused in to the country


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## notimp (May 31, 2020)

GBAer said:


> https://hoodsite.com/rioter-acciden...down-building-in-fayetteville-north-carolina/
> 
> COMEDY GOLD!


There is a lie in that article, actually multiple. So be aware, that this is not a good source.

First and most prominent lie: "while trying to burn down a building". No, the aim of radical action in that vain is to destroy property in public (that usually is insured, or society will help replace)), if at all, so parked cars, windows, storefronts (...) not to burn down property like houses, where loss of life could ensue (how does the fire department get in, when there are mass protests?). Because of obvious reasons. If people die, because someone burned down their house - the protest isnt popular anymore. (Even protest where buildings got burned down in the past (verging on regime change level of dissent), used that very sporadically afaik, and mostly for signaling (f.e. burning down an important government building, when no one was in), not as 'usual rioter action'. Remember, the aim is to get people out of their houses to join you, not to have them shake in fear of being burned inside.)

Second lie is, that this is 'usual rioting'. Bringing Molotovs isnt mass crowd behavior, its premeditated. So those groups usually are organized. For one reason or another.

So that site does poor reporting. But brings you emotional clickbait, that works very well on social media, which is indeed why we cant rely on social media alone to 'judge' a situation. 

Also, where was that photo taken? Narnia? (Journalism needs to report on basic criteria (Who, when, where, ...) like this, PR doesnt.) The photos dont allow to identify when and where this was taken, so in that instance, you need to proof your chain of aquisition, or at least tell, why you believe they where taken in North Carolina as stated in the title.


edit: Saw the video after writing this. If the video turns out to be genuine (and the crowd reaction seems to be) that guy was an idiot. Because of the reasons stated above. No one is in favor of burning down random houses during a riot. Not even people that would be organizing a riot. Also crowds just looking at that and cheering? Welcome to mass crowd behavior. (Rationality who?)


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## Hanafuda (May 31, 2020)




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## FAST6191 (May 31, 2020)

RE: not the place, now a political site, why here

The users create the discussions
We have had political discussions as long as I have been around here, and from what I can tell before that
You mean in the news, current events and politics section of the forum?


Anyway are the riots actually about something real? Some seemed to want to note someone had their neck stood upon by a policeman and died, footage of the event showing no cause for that level of force and some other attending officers not doing anything either.
Any martial arts, restraint, police, medical training... would say is rather risky and very much has killing a possibility so in turn would count as justification for lethal force if being used against someone else. As far as I am aware the officer in question was relieved of duty and subsequently charged (those also present not yet charged with anything last I looked but I am not sure what is warranted there). It sucks and you try to prevent it but if there are some two thirds of a million officers in the US ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/191694/number-of-law-enforcement-officers-in-the-us/ ) with even more daily interactions you are going to get a screw up or three somewhere along the line. It is even a noted example in http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm which I also suggest reading here.
There the is the perception this sort of thing happens all the time, and worse racism is the cause of it. I don't see it myself (and I do like to follow the likes of https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/ and other databases like https://killedbypolice.net/ and people in turn following them. That is 1004 people listed as killed in 2019 by those sites, which if anything have a vested interest in pushing that number up rather than downplaying it) but if someone cares to enlighten me please do. Now killing is one thing, there are occasionally survivors too, and there other interactions so maybe we could discuss that.

Still perception can be a thing (advertisers and PR peeps do say it is reality) so maybe we get some demonstrations.
Said demonstrations appear to have failed to be controlled, and might even be a bit contagious. There may or may not be further elements (outside as well as generally disaffected youth) involved in it, have been some in the past in other ones and it is an effective cover to do things.
So yeah riots about not a lot, not likely to be terribly effective at anything and messing up your own room rarely accomplishes much other than getting you a bunch of broken stuff of your own. Indeed the police station, which was left under duress in a shot I saw, should it have been trashed is probably only likely to get someone to drop a bit of coin to give them nice new stuff that would have been years out on the budget.

As far as I am aware no figure of note in this upon seeing what is fairly clear and unedited footage of the event has attempted to justify it or downplay it.

So yeah something bad happened, investigation was conducted quickly and punishment was sought in short order, and appears to be ongoing. Sucks that it happened but that appears to be the system at work reacting to a bad action. No need to break stuff.


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## notimp (Jun 1, 2020)

Oh wow the protest leaders demands in Minneapolis are ... 'special'.



We want more private policing structures (community lead safety structures), instead of police! Yeah, good luck with that...

(Thats like demanding "We want the state to permanently acknowledge that it has no legitimacy, and create private policing structures, that would be equivalent to official ones, thereby breaking the states monopoly on enforcement through violence. Maybe we could have street battles between the differing policing forces in the future? What morons.

Next we want our own state, and for santa to bring everyone warm milk and cookies.)

edit: Full video:
https://www.democracynow.org/2020/5/29/minneapolis

Now watched the entire video, and frankly - I'm angry at the organizers.

America seems to have a widespread education problem, when it tends to put utter morons with no qualifications other than feels at the top of protest movements.

In that video above you have a female organizer demanding the abolition of state power in favor of 'direct community policing' - which is outrageously stupid, and a member of a state body stating into camera, that he hates watching snuff videos especially the kind, where the victims cant die with dignity. But the other snuff videos not so much? When not acting in a political capacity with his dad being the state attorney, he's an artist. Bravo dear SJW movement for putting people without qualifications at the top, but which excel at 'feelings'.

Cant watch those statements. Too stupid.

Also I strongly disagree with @FAST6191 that those cases are 'low in numbers' and should be ignored. (There is still stuff that can be done to prevent further ones of those.) But at least in Minnesota the question becomes, what the heck are you doing? You already have a democratic government in place, that gets attacked by Trump for them being extremist left wing pussies, when publically demanding the arrest of those police officers. You have a police chief thats already on a mission to change the internal culture of the police department there. So now demands of the activist groups move in the direction of 'defund the police' - while organizing a riot, and at least setting a police station on fire (still different from 'setting homes on fire' (endangering other people)). I mean this is so stupid its hard to put it in words.

Because of the level of stupidity alone here, its easy to predict outcomes. Protests here will have no effects. Potential demands are so way off the charts that no sane person could even entertain them - so all of this is freaking venting and acting out again. Opportunity missed.

Next time demand better police screenings, or more psychological evaluations of officers, or reeducation programs for other officers not to stand by and stare holes into the air, demand internal restructuring programs, literally demand anything that makes sense, and could be an actual demand.

"Defund the police and fund 'community policing'" - what a freaking joke..

edit:

Ok, better demands from another activist group.
Cultural shift in the police department, body cameras, special prosecutor for those cases.


Thats something to work with.


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## gempugs (Jun 1, 2020)

Looks like OP isnt way geek at all.

Nah, reddit or your usual social media is enough for these kind of discussions. Don't bring 'em to our peaceful independent video gaming community will ya?


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## Taleweaver (Jun 1, 2020)

@notimp: whoa! You're usually better at argumenting than on your last post. But here you just put some links down, explain the gist of it, and then add "...and I strongly disagree!".

Look...as a non-USA citizen, the idea of a private militia is indeed pretty ridiculous to me. I'm in two minds regarding police. On one hand they're never there when you need them and only there to hand out petty fines for ridiculous things (I once was among many dozens to receive a fine for driving my bicycle on the wrong end of the road...on a road with bicycle lanes on both sides and a road that was not only notoriously badly designed but literally deadly to cyclists). On the other hand, I fully understand that their main task is to observe and maintain order and balance. Something that is especially important in this pandemic.

The thing is: our police is, by lack of a better term, humane. Yes, they pry and maintain even the dumbest of laws, but they mostly just want everyone to just mind their business. Even if only going by police series (which obviously isn't the truth), there's a major difference between local (Flemish) series and American ones. Flemish ones are halfway detective stories, with them mostly talking to people. In the US, it's like there's a constant war going on that at least requires drawing guns. Which I presume is closer to daily life, because guns are allowed there (fuck...if Belgium would allow nearly all citizens to carry firearms, it wouldn't take long before the police becomes much edgier as well).

Add to that the elephant in the room: racism. The easiest thing to distinguish a police series and a news report involving the police (aside the shaky cam) is the amount of black officers. In series, there's always at least one coloured cop playing sidekick (never the lead, obviously, as it would scare away racist viewers). In reports, it's almost all whites (save perhaps a sorry spokesperson).
And I've got to be honest: if 95% of Belgium's police force was black and there were regular mentions of them killing white people, I'd rather have the state invest in "private policing structures" (meaning: neighborhood watches) than have some white guy tell the television that they acted in good faith and that the perpetrators would be properly punished (which would be a couple weeks of suspension).

Is it a perfect solution? Of course not. Is it a better solution than the current situation? ABSOLUTELY.

Of course it's not going to happen. The USA only remains united through it's strength over its citizens. Reducing police strength might in the long run indeed, as you say, lead to cities or even states breaking free from the USA. And Trump is a moron in many fields but not this one. He knows better than to allow protesters to threaten his dictatorship.




@phalk, @gempugs, @sergey3000 : this section's separated from the gaming section. I get not everyone wants to talk about it, but it's really not hard to avoid it. Besides...contributing (even voicing that you don't want to talk about it) is only increasing the size of these threads. So...sorry we interrupt your daily browsing habits, but you've got plenty of reading material left.


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## notimp (Jun 1, 2020)

I have to explain my deliberation process then.

The state will never allow for its monopoly on violence in policing to be split. As in never. That opens up the door to questions like 'which police force is better, the public, or the private one?' at which point you have 'local warlords' competing over who is responsible for what district.

The loss of power and legitimacy for the state, if something like this would get instilled is so huge, there are forces in federal government that would rightly argue, that you invade that state - just to reinstate whats one of the basics of democracy - which is, we dont take policing into our own hands, as individuals, or communities.

If any state does that it only can loose. Its like a forhead tatoo stating, I'm illegitimate, and cant do things right, signed your voted in state representative.

Stuff like this never ever can happen, for good reasons. If your perspective is, that you will create your own self policing commune thats self reliant and self sufficient, please start your little experiment somewhere in the desert, and then hope that your children dont get abused by your 'communal power structures' without an established oversight process, like they always seem to do in such an instance (unfair to bring this into the argument, but 'communal value inforcement' strangely often paned out like this in the past).

Get your freaking TV sitcom Idea of "we be our own sheriffs" out of your head, and learn about a centuries worth of constitutional law in practice, before sending freaking daddy is a state atornies artists son to a TV station sketching out their idillic utopia on a national broadcast.

The NSA would snuff out your ploy in half a month, because it endangers the states stability as a whole - and for what? Just so you can stroke some of those emotional needs you have, while virtue signaling?

This has to stop. You have to teach people - at a minimum - that them trying to put up 'alternative systems' instead of reforming the actual system, is not the solution, when it comes to policing.

That stuff I'm actually getting angry about, because it give hardliners an actual argument, why 'leftist progressives' cant be allowed to have their opinions matter. And I'm saying that the argument is absolutely valid in this case.
-


Also - the very idea, that you could demand police defunding, while you are mounting a riot, and setting police stations ablaze - is a little counterintuitive, dont you think?

(State buildings are set on fire, because of a sensationalism factor, that can add to protester numbers growing - again, if people dont feel under danger to be burned in their private homes. (Which would be a narrative, right wingers would be paddling right about now. Which coincidently is, why the person with the molotov coctail trying to burn down a structure on his own, with hundereds watching, was acting - entirely out of stupidity. Also, if the video is actually real, I doubt that this was an agent provocateur - because the guy on video was obviously very young.) Which leads me to 'the amounts of things that seemed to have failed at that specific protest at this point...'.)


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## Costello -- Why politics on gbatemp???! (Jun 1, 2020)

sergey3000 said:


> This is not the first time I see threads like this on this website. Are you coming here to relax, talk about video games and forget about the real world troubles or you want to upset everyone and talk about same thing we hear thousands of times a day all over the news! Why talk everywhere about things related to politics? You want to hear people opinions? Go and read YouTube comments.


https://gbatemp.net/threads/disclaimer-read-this-before-posting.493895/
first post, question 5


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## Taleweaver (Jun 1, 2020)

Okay. Thanks for the explanation. However, it seems like we mostly agree (I also posted on why the states will never allow it).

However, I still don't see why you call the idea stupid aside of its feasability. Unless I'm mistaken, the word(s) you're looking for is "(incredibly) naive".



notimp said:


> Get your freaking TV sitcom Idea of "we be our own sheriffs" out of your head, and learn about a centuries worth of constitutional law in practice


...that seems like a pretty sad choice of words, really. If the founding fathers followed the "consitutional law" (or whatever the UK had in place was called back then), the states would still be England's colony right now.


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## SG854 (Jun 1, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> Erm... I'll play the cynic here : the police shooting black people, uproar about it and a president who stirs things up even is what I've come to expect from the USA.
> 
> Here's the news for the upcoming days on your local propaganda channel :
> 'the police acts in good faith'
> ...


The Cop choked the guy to death. I saw the full video. 9 min straight with his knee on his neck. The police report was bullshit. Then a day after, a video showed how much of a bullshit the report was. 

People always making this type of topic a political divide. But both conservatives and democrats agree the cop abused his power. Tune in to Fox and even they agree the cop is bad. Usually a divide happens when then say, "well he could've been armed or a threat." But the video clearly shows the cop did fucked up shit. Once the guy is handcuffed its over no need to go any further, especially for 9 min in a death choke when the guy is crying that he can't breath. There was no resisting, nothing. Cops are not judge, jury, or executioner. This is why everybody agrees on this one. 

There were multiple races of cops in on this. A White, Asian and Hispanic.

The riots are worse because of corona virus lockdown. Lots of people at home with lots of free time on their hands. Many lost there jobs. A few are using this as an excuse to loot and get free stuff, which is beyond Floyd at this point. And burn down building that have nothing to do with fighting for racial justice. Lockdown has made these riots much worse. People were already on edge from stay at home orders and just needed a spark to go crazy. Floyd's death was that spark.


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## MetoMeto (Jun 1, 2020)

This is strange that i stumble here...i thought there is no politics on gbatemp...


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## notimp (Jun 1, 2020)

The US has 'county police organizations', correct? So what I wrote above (only state or national level is an option) is not correct.

Issue being, that Minneapolis is not just a little county. So I guess legally its not entirely out of the question, that you could replace a state police force with a community run one in the US? (That would then still work under the federal system.)

Its just, that practically it still is. (The amount of damage that would do to the democratic system at hand if you'd have to admit, yes, we had to replace our entire executive arm in a large city, because it had unredeemable behavioral problems that were institutional, ... Its still never going to happen..)

That said, I think I'll look into that social activists groups demands to see what exactly they are demanding, because now I'm interested..


edit:
Black Visions Collective is a squarespace site with - ehm - useless stuff on it:
https://www.blackvisionsmn.org/
Reclaim the Block has an actual website, once you get past the up front and center design focus of it.
https://www.reclaimtheblock.org/

They both reference the following petition:
https://secure.everyaction.com/eR7GA7oz70GL8doBq19LrA2

(bit.ly/defundmpd which is shared on their facebook)

I'm reading it now.

And I've finished reading, the demands still are  - well, feel good insanity.



> *1. To never again vote to increase police funding or to increase the police department's budget. *
> 
> *2. To propose and vote for a $45 million cut from MPD's budget as the City responds to projected COVID-19 shortfalls. *
> 
> ...



"To never again increase budget." So you mean this has to be made constitutional? Oh wait, even the constitution can be changed.. So this is pure insanity?

"As the city responds to Covid-19" nice, you've made it a cross over with another unrelated large issue in your second demand already! Boy, working with you politically must be fun...

Expand investment in "community-led health and safety strategies" that specific, ey? Play out the police against  'community interest'? That has written success all over it...

No violence? Replace guns with flowers? In law enforcement?

Thank you for your contributions.

Again to be fair, there are other civil society activist groups, backing the protest, whose demands are more useful.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 1, 2020)

MetoMeto said:


> This is strange that i stumble here...i thought there is no politics on gbatemp...


I have no idea where you would have got that impression.
Seriously. This section has existed for longer than you have been a member, and discussions consistently can be found dating back basically the forum's inception (while this section is newer and things used to go into general off topic and user submitted you can find examples of such threads in this one going back to 2006 or so). There are no rules against it, nor would such things within the spirit of the general principles of discussion/logical conclusion of the rules governing the discussion.




notimp said:


> Also I strongly disagree with @FAST6191 that those cases are 'low in numbers' and should be ignored. (There is still stuff that can be done to prevent further ones of those.)


Unjustified police shootings, much less those caused by racism, do seem very thin on the ground, and please point at where I said such things should be ignored or even could be reasonably concluded to have that as my premise.

Whether the number as a whole is low (which I was not discussing there) we could look at different countries to compare, and it would probably be on the higher side (even for places with more lax gun laws). As a first pass UK wise seldom breaks 5 ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/319246/police-fatal-shootings-england-wales/ ) and is 1/5 the size population wise (about 66 million to the US' 330 million, which is a far cry from the 200 or so times that would have to be to have population parity). Now UK gun laws are rather harsher, though at the same time there are things here that US peeps would love to have, but given the London murder rate and rather stabby at that is among the first thing to be looked at should the argument be broached then yeah.

Re: private police. They exist in several places already. Have done in various capacities for decades in current form but longer in others, and the fuzzy edges vis a vis things like university campuses, off duty security contracts and police contract work get odder still.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/chi-private-police-20150301-story.html is a 2015 story on the matter.
The history of such services is spotty but at the same time is something of a feeder into police, sort of training units and other such things.
At the same time I do not imagine those being spoken to as part of the protests have a particularly nuanced understanding of the matter. The same sort of thing as "we want all police officers to have cameras" (there are some nice on gun ones as well starting to come in now as well) up until they start to repeatedly disprove false narratives.

Re state monopolies on power. Is that why jurisdiction issues between federal agencies themselves, federal and state, state and local, tribal fun all down the line, municipal (see some of the university stuff, though districts within them is also a fun one), prison and whatever else are a frequent source of fun and games? Sure at some level that could all be described as the state but eh.


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## notimp (Jun 1, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Unjustified police shootings, much less those caused by racism, do seem very thin on the ground, and please point at where I said such things should be ignored or even could be reasonably concluded to have that as my premise.


In contrast, I have my local (left leaning) newspaper in europe now state the following in a headlining position in todays paper:

"Its now central for the US to admit structural racism instead of individualizing what happened in this case."

Protests have flared up in more than two dozen other states. In 15 US states the national guard was deployed.

So its bigger than 'just another small case' already.

Minneapolis, New York, Washington, Los Angeles and Philadelphia have enacted nightly curfews. Which were broken by protesters.

There have been encounters in front of the white house which made the president tweet, that he would move the most vicious dogs, and most ominous weapons against anyone who would climb over the white house fence.

United States 2020.

edit: The officer in question now has been detained.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 1, 2020)

notimp said:


> In contrast, I have my local (left leaning) newspaper in europe now state the following in a headlining position in todays paper:
> 
> "Its now central for the US to admit structural racism instead of individualizing what happened in this case."



"Structural" racism, along with institutional which is more or less the same thing, is a term that has been bandied about for years now. The whole slavery and civil rights thing took rather longer than is ideal, and there were a few other things along the way, but I am not seeing any evidence of present overt, covert, systemic failings being allowed to continue that speak to that.

Does America fail its poor massively such that interaction with law enforcement, which with the fines doing things like suspending your driving abilities (rather important in a lot of the US for other stupid reasons) also playing into it, is a common and thus possibly disproportionally trouble those with varying amounts of melanin? Sure.
Is it racism at its heart? That is a harder sell and I would sooner put that at the almost pathological fear of anything resembling communism as it was seen in the world, but now not seen for so long and people lacking an understanding...
If I wanted to sort problems I would sooner see education reform, crime reforms (as in actually attempt rehabilitation), welfare reforms, healthcare reforms (and education), drug treatment/policy reform, attempts made to create sustainable business in areas that would benefit from it, community formation... the rising tide lifts all ships approach.


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## notimp (Jun 1, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> but I am not seeing any evidence of present overt, covert, systemic failings being allowed to continue that speak to that.


I am (f.e. https://www.twincities.com/2020/04/...ites-to-be-arrested-for-pot-possession-in-mn/ ). The issue now becomes what you define as structural, and what you still let slide by.

But I see the current situation in a similar vain as you do.

Basically, issues should stem from practices of segregation that are still in place to this day in some states (Large commuities of predominantly black citizens f.e.). This leads to police not being seen as part of the community, or police becoming increasingly hostile towards that felt animosity ('you are not part of our community') which enhances group identification with your side of the issue, which should be the cause of most of the current issues. (Systemic racism, still being a problem beyond that though.)

At the same time, many of the protestors/rioters this time around where culturally diverse, and to say it more plainly - young white folks even. Those would riot because of economic or social conditions, not because they feel so much compassion for their fellow brother - so in addressing their (better: everybodies) 'needs' what you proposed, seems correct.

Part of the activists demands from above that speaks towards this as well, is to fund social community initiatives again.

So on the police side what you are seeing still is structural racism imho (that may have transformed to some sort of occupational tribalism, where also latino or asian police men can hook in), but on the demand side you see requests for social reforms ('deal with covid better') mixed in as well... Which then appeals to more people (black population in the US is around 14%).

So its more than a race riot, but its also a race riot.

edit:

We can shorten that, its flipping racism (Atlanta, Gerogia):
I watched this unfold last night. Go to my IG page for the FULL VIDEO and more details (it’s too long for Twitter). Instagram: @Brittmtv pic.twitter.com/ajwWCCtwUJ— Brittany Miller (@Brittm_tv) May 31, 2020


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## slaphappygamer (Jun 1, 2020)

This all seems worse that the Rodney King riots. How did people not learn from that experience? Maybe a generation gap, of some sort? I’m frustrated too, but none of these actions help. This divide has become so much bigger since don took office.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 1, 2020)

I would have to dig deeper into that and do a proper statistical analysis. Nationwide stats and self reported use ("use within the last 12 months" also has a wide disparity between "smoke weed everyday" and "maybe at a party"), combined with various levels of legalisation. Not to mention it is a fairly effective "need a charge, any charge" if you need to get someone off the street and they happen to be in possession of.
There could be something there, fine basis for a further investigation or anomaly to contemplate but it is at best a surface reading. 

Police not being drawn from the community is a thing to consider, for reasons of local knowledge, for reasons you contemplate, incentives in policing (both ticket quotas and if you live there you have a vested interest) and more besides.

"from practices of segregation that are still in place to this day in some states"
That is a dubious assertion from where I sit. Segregation is an actively enforced measure whereas I am not seeing that today. This is also not considering the ever fun "white flight" concept in this.

Basically I have a hard time looking at things and coming up with racism as a thing. Or if you prefer America does not have a racism problem but it does have a poverty problem, and attempting to address it as racism is going after the wrong cause which means any effects are going to be secondary at best.


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## notimp (Jun 1, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Segregation is an actively enforced measure whereas I am not seeing that today.


Well economically enforced, but I'm no radical in that sense - not enforced is fine with me, if you insist. I'm just jumping on the fact, that those communities exist and usually arent very economically heterogenious. We all know what another recession does to them and US society at large (low savings quota), all it takes is really just a spark, and everyone was just waiting to see when something like this would happen. (Spark looks still pretty racist from where I'm sitting though..  )

Came back to state, that so far 4.000 people have been arrested at those protests nationwide (in the US). So clamp down is pretty significant. Curfews are now active in more than 40 cities.

edit:

MSNBC:


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## Viri (Jun 1, 2020)

I've been seeing a lot of this lately.



Spoiler












The funniest one was Disney and Star Wars. After they did this. I guess all that PR speak on Twitter goes out the window, when it comes to Chinese money.



Spoiler










I wonder why Chewbecca was removed!


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## phalk (Jun 2, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> @phalk, @gempugs, @sergey3000 : this section's separated from the gaming section. I get not everyone wants to talk about it, but it's really not hard to avoid it. Besides...contributing (even voicing that you don't want to talk about it) is only increasing the size of these threads. So...sorry we interrupt your daily browsing habits, but you've got plenty of reading material left.



You're misunderstanding. Maybe I'm at fault for not being clear enough though.
My reply is directed at this thread in specific, not the political discussions subject.
The OP seemed annoyed that there was not a single thread about the current protests in this forum.

No one has any obligation to discuss anything anywhere, much less at gbatemp which is not a political discussion fórum or political news outlet even though it allows it.


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## notimp (Jun 2, 2020)

Look at this image,





while listening to the following music tracks:


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## UltraSUPRA (Jun 2, 2020)

You protest against the stay-at-home order, you're considered a threat to humanity.
You burn entire cities to the ground, you're considered a saint.

Okay.


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## gman666 (Jun 2, 2020)

I could have sworn members were saying how much they don't want to see politics on temp and even complained about not having an option to filter it out. So yeah... Not surprising that the riots in multiple countries are not being discussed here. Honestly, based on a lot of the comments here, I doubt you would want to read some of the things users have to say about it. For example, read above and see how illogical these opinions can be.


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## Jayro (Jun 2, 2020)

Some of us come here to GBATemp to escape that bullshit. It's the only website I frequent where I can avoid it... Or used to...


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## Sorox (Jun 2, 2020)

I come to a Hacking website to learn and read about hacking. I don't come here to read or discuss current events.

That isn't to say I don't have an opinion, but this just really isn't the place to discuss it. Internet forums in general aren't, but damn near every forum has a politics section, so its gonna happen.


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## MetoMeto (Jun 2, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> I have no idea where you would have got that impression.


Well i saw some guys couple of times saying "this is a gaming forum talk politics somewhere else" so i presumed since they didn't pointed him to politics thread that there is no politics thread, and than i stumble upon this.

It is bizzare to be honest. It is a gaming thread but im not interested in politics anyway..at least not from a politics standpoint but its interesting to know there IS one 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Sorox said:


> I come to a Hacking website to learn and read about hacking. I don't come here to read or discuss current events.
> 
> That isn't to say I don't have an opinion, but this just really isn't the place to discuss it. Internet forums in general aren't, but damn near every forum has a politics section, so its gonna happen.



@FAST6191  See? ^   I mean i agree with him, but whatever...

@Sorox Yeah i came here also for the same reason and i was surprised there actually _IS_ this section.
I am here from 2010 or so and only now i learned about this xD


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## FAST6191 (Jun 2, 2020)

gman666 said:


> I could have sworn members were saying how much they don't want to see politics on temp and even complained about not having an option to filter it out. So yeah... Not surprising that the riots in multiple countries are not being discussed here. Honestly, based on a lot of the comments here, I doubt you would want to read some of the things users have to say about it. For example, read above and see how illogical these opinions can be.





Jayro said:


> Some of us come here to GBATemp to escape that bullshit. It's the only website I frequent where I can avoid it... Or used to...





MetoMeto said:


> Well i saw some guys couple of times saying "this is a gaming forum talk politics somewhere else" so i presumed since they didn't pointed him to politics thread that there is no politics thread, and than i stumble upon this.
> 
> It is bizzare to be honest. It is a gaming thread but im not interested in politics anyway..at least not from a politics standpoint but its interesting to know there IS one
> 
> ...



Re: blocking this section out
https://gbatemp.net/account/new-content
Personally I am content to scroll on by but "your screen, your rules" applies just as happily as it does anywhere else. Unfortunate to lose the input of people but hey.

I already mentioned that such discussions have been happening for as long as I have been here and as far back as my explorations have taken me (the several dozen pages of this section taper off around 2006-2007 and content gets a bit spotty the further back you go in general thanks to various shuffles), nor would earlier times have precluded them or even really seen them be less in relative number or how apparent they are in the daily view new posts.
Banning them would go against the general principle of an open discussion forum too. Even if we could figure out what is politics (do we ban discussions of the latest DMCA or copyright rework? It is directly applicable to a lot of things around here after all and discussion can get just as heated. Free speech? While in less of a precarious position than in years past we do still see any number of fronts attacking the ability of game makers to make the game they want to make. Do we tell the gay alphabet soup crowd, among those several prominent and valued members that would probably claim to have enjoyed having a place to speak, to take a hike as many statements there would fall well into the realms of politics, seriously divisive ones at that even within the overall umbrella of said gay alphabet soup?). I am, and I can say with certainty all the decision makers are, well aware of the "don't talk about politics or religion" notions of site/community building, it is not a notion without merit either if you seek to minimise conflict but I would say I usually only see that in goal driven forums, simple support/dev forums, or heavily specific forums.

Some members may reckon it is better to do away with it. Their opinion to hold if they want.
Others want an echo chamber it seems, or a bias by any other phrasing... you would be welcome to your own opinion on that one but know you are wrong.
I would also be among the first to note that many here don't have terribly well thought out or developed opinions on many things, and the chances of learning much of great merit is low. That is OK as plenty of others also don't have terribly well developed skills in hacking but we still seem to teach new people all the time as well.


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## Subtle Demise (Jun 2, 2020)

I was cool with it when they torched a police precinct, I was even kind of cool with it when they decimated a Target store (Target provides a large amount of funding to police forces in their areas, along with racial profiling they participate in with their asset protection). I was also on their side when a paid or rogue agent provocateur working with the St. Paul Police (officially denied, of course) set fire to an AutoZone and threw rocks at police later that day.

Then I saw the footage of a group of people beating down a man for trying to defend his favorite bar with a sword. Sorry, but you people have lost my respect, you could have worked with the "boog bois" but you called them far-right white supremacists, when that couldn't be further from the truth. We could have ended the war on drugs, which is THE number one reason police are as shitty as they are. We could have improved race relations, we could have been a nation to be envied for its liberty. Instead, we have a nation divided, and easily conquered. The extreme left calling the far right racist for not agreeing with them, and the far-right getting even more racist in retaliation.

What's going to happen instead? Trump is going to violate Posse Comitatus and the Constitution and send in the US military and put down your little uprising, and it won't stop there. Just wait until the National Guard or other military branch patrolling the streets with the regular police becomes a daily part of life. You'll beg for the days when a street cop killing a black guy for a victimless crime was the worst thing that could happen. You're a part of history now, history repeating itself. The rise of absolute tyranny is all but completely inevitable at this point. Won't be long before you'll regret all that gun control we passed, I guarantee it. I bet ol' Winnie over in China is just overjoyed about what's to come of the future!


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## Deleted User (Jun 2, 2020)

The Nintendo store in NY suffered some damage during the riots.
Someone just broke a window in Rockefeller Center. Organizers are pleading w crowd to stay peaceful. They are trying to move toward Trump Tower, which has heavy police presence. pic.twitter.com/Te0u1sO8Vh— Sarah Boxer (@Sarah_Boxer) June 1, 2020


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 2, 2020)

Subtle Demise said:


> over in China is just overjoyed


After how Americans reacted to the situation in HK, Chinese people have every reason feel Schadenfreude or call for China to send equipment and money to the rioters... excuse me... "activists". But it seems most Chinese are not really interested in the topic. Even I am quite shocked at how bad the situation is and how quickly it developed. Very brutal on both sides... like what the hell?
If I had any say in this I would make sure that
-the police shows more restraint (when there is no real danger; not talking about stopping a car driver which might have a weapon; or riots)
-drugs are legalized (at least the harmless ones; just to reduce criminality that harms "nobody")
-the black community stops using the victim card all the time; they can only do it because of the education system and media (similar to HK btw)
-the funding of these riots stops and the people are prosecuted


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## Joe88 (Jun 2, 2020)

Dodain47 said:


> The Nintendo store in NY suffered some damage during the riots.


heres the video https://www.instagram.com/p/CA6kWqNgQTF/
they smashed the window, tons of people jumped in, looted then quickly left, police showed up 10 secs after the window broke

and another pic


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## KarlslandOtaku (Jun 2, 2020)

These terrorists and communists should of been taken care of decades ago.


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## KingAsix (Jun 2, 2020)

I came to see if anyone was talking about this and as a black gamer going through a hell of a time and I appreciate those who aren't trying to hide from it and bring it to the surface.


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## TheRedfox (Jun 2, 2020)

Dodain47 said:


> The Nintendo store in NY suffered some damage during the riots.
> https://twitter.com/Sarah_Boxer/status/1267601524982759424



Sources say the developer of Bob's game finally got his revenge for Nintendo not wanting to license his game


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## Taleweaver (Jun 2, 2020)

Just heard Trump threatens to mobilise the army against US citizens. Well...at least he does it after breaking every sort of treaty he had with foreign instances. That way we don't have to feel guilty when idly standing by when you start a second civil war...


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## notimp (Jun 2, 2020)

Jayro said:


> Some of us come here to GBATemp to escape that bullshit. It's the only website I frequent where I can avoid it... Or used to...


There is an oxymoron in there somewhere.  (We go in a forum, so we dont have to read.)

Also insert three paragraphs about how the concept of 'the third place' (a home away from home, where you can tune out), was actually (re-)invented as a way to let people 'experience an hour of fun' after a working day (job), where none of them does anything anymore, that has meaning to them. (Breaking down tasks into processes to make them faster (industrialization), and capitalism (you do stuff, because it pays).. ).

Also, do you hate the topic, the futility of protests, or the way people usually pick sides, and 'have to have their opinion win'?

I'm curious. 

As long as the discussion isnt just purely ideological... whats the detriment? 

If it is just 'I really don't want to think about those things', I might poke you.  

If it is anything else - fair. And, sorry for you having to cope with something political.


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## Waygeek (Jun 2, 2020)

squee666 said:


> meh politics and social unrest drama is everywhere not like a thread is needed



What a load of handwaving dismissive crock of shit. Anywhere in England looking like the US right now bruh? Italy? Greece? Canada? New Zealand? Yeah no. Just say 'I'm a racist' and move on, anime avatar.


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## CallmeBerto (Jun 3, 2020)

This is why we need cat-girls


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

Right wing activists (American Identity Movement ) ran a false flag 'Antifa_US' account on twitter, that urged protesters to loot and steal:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/06/viral-tweet-alert-wasnt-from-antifa/

(Any kind of escalation at this point (it already spread) is counter productive to the protests growing, or staying strong in numbers. Even the ultra right acknowledges that.  See, they arent all stupid.  (Now its a struggle over 'legitimacy'.) )

Their play was, to fake espouse 'a plan to bring violence to “residential areas… the white hoods”', which is exactly what the protest cant do, if it hopes to draw more people. Same thing I criticised with the 'rioter tries to burn down house' video above.

(Thats not a rioter, thats premeditated, and what he does is counterproductive (protest wants masses to join them, not to live in fear of them) at this point. Stuff burning makes for pictures that go viral, and invoking peoples base instincts, but once you have critical mass, it becomes a staying game, and you dont want any extreme actions anymore. Basically.)

Looting is both, an irrational outburst of 'power of the masses' (anonymity, no state of law ('we have the power' (- so why not get me a new TV))), but at the same time something that is used to discredit the legitimacy of the protests.

(While in essence all its saying is, that mass behavior doesnt follow higher level social rules. Say whaaaaaat?   I'm always astonished how many people seem to publicly realize that exactly the moment mass action takes place.  (And not while sitting in a football stadium, the weekend before, f.e.) )


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## Viri (Jun 3, 2020)

Some citizens are taking things into their own hands.



Spoiler



https://mobile.twitter.com/ZoomerClips/status/1267682087261233157





Spoiler



https://twitter.com/ej_bouie/status/1266922083407151108





Spoiler



https://mobile.twitter.com/_Crypto_Maniac_/status/1267653663717240833


It's such catharsis seeing a person who destroyed your business on the ground begging for his life, as you aim a rifle at him. Seeing all this happening makes me wanna buy an AR-15.


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## campbell0505 (Jun 3, 2020)

Watching this happen from someone outside of the US, is very weird. I find it weird how pretty much every cop has a gun, I'm not anti-gun, it's just I've grown up in a country with very strict gun rules, and have only ever seen guns in museums. Even most cops here don't have guns. There's definitely responsible police men, I don't believe in ACAB, and I think most cops are good, but bad cops ruin the rep for good cops.

I hope the US sorts this out with actual advancement.

I just find it stupid how this is going on during a pandemic, I get the reason for the protests, and I support BLM, but imagine the spike in a week or two, from a country that was already getting around 20,000 cases a day. My country is getting around less than 10 a day now and we still have pretty high restrictions.


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## Viri (Jun 3, 2020)

campbell0505 said:


> Watching this happen from someone outside of the US, is very weird. I find it weird how pretty much every cop has a gun, I'm


When your country has more guns than citizens, your cops pretty much HAVE to carry a gun.


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

Viri said:


> It's such catharsis seeing a person who destroyed your business on the ground begging for his life, as you aim a rifle at him.


Oh yeah, the catharsis, that leaves another person in a trauma. Always the best kind of catharsis. The kind of catharsis, that needs you experiencing an irrational powertrip first - and then, aaaaaaaahhhhh, catharsis..  Oh it is so much better, if you can experience that as a gun owner, and not as a looter, because?

Also I find it endlessly funny, that 'some store owners are using the guns they own' is pent up to be a sort of 'heureka' moment by you.

Isn't that expected in a country like the US with gun ownership levels that high?


Also, and more to the point, those owners may protect their goods and ultimately their livelyhoods, but they are doing that, by threatening to end lives, while none of the looters or protesters is. (People still havent died at the hands of protesters, while quite a few have been offed by 'counterforces' (police, ...) as of now. So there is still a misbalance.

What you'd do in a developed country, is to do more crowd control where looting is going on, and then helping those people that were looted and not insured, to get up and running again, through community grants or donations (different businesses pooling money).

Of course only, if you didnt want to peg the public opinion against the protests and are doing jack sh*t to limit looting right now, so public sentiment turns.

In the US police doesnt even seem to have the right equipment for the job (What exactly are those puny arm shields for? Riot shields look different.), seems to be afraid to move against crowds coordinately without batons in hand, and leaves store owners at their own peril.

No? 

You see none of the bigger brands starting to hire private contractors to pull weapons in front of their stores for a reason. They all cut losses, and move on. For them its more economical to do that. (Public image.)

Why is it always the little guy acting out of an irrational fear, that has to be spokesmodel for 'whats ideal' in the NRAs interests? Never the big corporations, who should actually know. Some day I'll find out..


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 3, 2020)

notimp said:


> Also, and more to the point, those owners may protect their goods and ultimately their livelyhoods, but they are doing that, by threatening to end lives, while none of the looters or protesters is.


Robbery often results in violence. If anyone comes into my house uninvited and with the goal to steal something, any violence is acceptable (except torture). It is the first step to civilization. If there is no sufficient deterrence for robbery, there is no incentive to do business. This is one of the reasons for the bad economic situation of black neighborhoods in the US. Stores move out, poverty increases. Instead of tackling the problem honestly, the racism card is played. Honestly, the words Nazi and racist will lose any meaning one day.

BTW in some countries (e.g. Germany) you are not allowed to harm a robber, which is ridiculous.


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Robbery often results in violence. If anyone comes into my house uninvited and with the goal to steal something, any violence is acceptable (except torture). It is the first step to civilization.


Agreed on the individual level ('fear for life" or livelyhood). Not agreed on the policy level (this is what we should use as a blueprint).

I can fully understand, why some shop owners are grabbing their guns at the moment. I don't think its the best thing to do. But I understand it.


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## Taleweaver (Jun 3, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Robbery often results in violence. If anyone comes into my house uninvited and with the goal to steal something, any violence is acceptable (except torture). It is the first step to civilization. If there is no sufficient deterrence for robbery, there is no incentive to do business. This is one of the reasons for the bad economic situation of black neighborhoods in the US. Stores move out, poverty increases. Instead of tackling the problem honestly, the racism card is played. Honestly, the words Nazi and racist will lose any meaning one day.
> 
> BTW in some countries (e.g. Germany) you are not allowed to harm a robber, which is ridiculous.


...I cannot disagree more.

It seems like you mix up cause and consequence. It's because you (by which I mean the neighborhood or even country) deem violence acceptable that robberies will become more violent. Likewise, if robbers expect to be harmed by people they burgle, they come prepared. We can ethically disagree on countries where we're not allowed to harm robbers, but A) we don't have more robbers than where it's allowed (explain that with your filosophy  ) and B) the robberies that do take place seldomly end up with violence.

It gets weirder when you claim the acceptance of violence being a "first step to civilization". When it comes to a civilization, it's best to consider them as an enlargement of your average family. Children might "steal" each other's toys, but any sort of violence isn't the way to show why this is the wrong approach for everyone (rather the opposite). Likewise, companies don't trade because they are afraid it'll get stolen but because they recognize the win-win situations opportunities represent.

_This is one of the reasons for the bad economic situation of black neighborhoods in the US._

Again: consequence, not cause. The problem with ethics is that they don't do shit when you've got an empty stomach. Muggings and robbery don't happen because those guys feel like doing it but because they lack alternative options. The incentive to do business is overshadowed by the neighborhood who have but learned but to take care of themselves. they see growing inequality and perceive (correctly) that they're being left to rot rather than be part of the civilization. Why bother to build a decent neighborhood when any attempt is perceived as being doomed from the start?

_Instead of tackling the problem honestly, the racism card is played_

Erm...this is something I better leave to US citizens, as they're in a better position to judge than me. But you really can't blame people from playing "the racism card" when the president calls his strategy a success AND a large part of those 100'000 deaths are poor, black Americans. 

_Honestly, the words Nazi and racist will lose any meaning one day._

If you can't see the reason why the protesters are pissed off then that's a problem in itself. Granted, I think today's untermensch'es are the poor, regardless of their skin color. But with a large part of them being black, it's pretty much a semantic difference.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 3, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> ...I cannot disagree more.
> 
> It seems like you mix up cause and consequence. It's because you (by which I mean the neighborhood or even country) deem violence acceptable that robberies will become more violent. Likewise, if robbers expect to be harmed by people they burgle, they come prepared. We can ethically disagree on countries where we're not allowed to harm robbers, but A) we don't have more robbers than where it's allowed (explain that with your filosophy  ) and B) the robberies that do take place seldomly end up with violence.


Well yeah, sure. If we were to put away all our kitchen knives (and cut our balls while we are at it) we would experience less violence. If a rapists rapes your family member, you can also avoid any trouble by just letting it happen.
Please imagine you are a robber: would you rob a place which can defend itself rather than one that can´t? that´s why force is neccessary. it is a deterrence.



Taleweaver said:


> Likewise, companies don't trade because they are afraid it'll get stolen but because they recognize the win-win situations opportunities represent.


Yeah, and if there is no win-win situation due to high risks, there will be no investment.



Taleweaver said:


> The problem with ethics is that they don't do shit when you've got an empty stomach.


The looters seem to be well-fed, especially the women. Being on food stamps in America far outcompetes being a rural person in China (of which there are still hundreds of millions). Yet, we don´t see looting as a mass sports in China. The culture is different and there is nobody willing to be blamed.



Taleweaver said:


> Why bother to build a decent neighborhood when any attempt is perceived as being doomed from the start?


The eternal victim, is it? In black neighborhoods people who try to study hard are called names and made fun of. Chinese Americans are hit by they parents if they have this attitude. The Chinese have had a very difficult history in America as well (the first to got banned; went there anyway and got abused building rail roads, for example). Yet the different cultures (value of education) have created vastly different results. Another example are Vietnamese people in Germany. They had worse starting conditions than e.g. most Turks but even outcompeted the Germans on average.



Taleweaver said:


> .If you can't see the reason why the protesters are pissed off then that's a problem in itself. Granted, I think today's untermensch'es are the poor, regardless of their skin color. But with a large part of them being black, it's pretty much a semantic difference.


Protesters can be pissed off. But destruction and looting cannot be excused.
It is ironic that my view would be considered racist even though you are the one speaking of Untermenschen. Your approach is that of a caring mother who lets her child do anything, even when he destroys her home. It might be ok until a certain age. But there needs to be discipline at one point. I assume you see yourself as an "ally" (I love the word, reminds me of videogames). I suggest you watch the video about what happens to allies who give thumbs up to looters: they get their windows smashed in.


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## Bladexdsl (Jun 3, 2020)

yeah the answer is to loot and cause as much violence as possible that always fixes things doesn't it? your just making yourselves look like asses in front of the whole world. and if trump does bring in the military it's never going to be the same ever again afterwards there is no doubt going to be new laws, restrictions and curfews. we have black people here too protesting but at least they are peaceful they are standing out in the freezing cold all night but at least they aren't going around wrecking shit they are a lot smarter than you are they know violence and destruction will only make things worse. but that's ok as long as you can go around stealing shit it doesn't matter right?!


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 3, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> yeah the answer is to loot and cause as much violence as possible that always fixes things doesn't it? your just making yourselves look like asses in front of the whole world. and if trump does bring in the military it's never going to be the same ever again afterwards there is no doubt going to be new laws, restrictions and curfews. we have black people here too protesting but at least they are peaceful they are standing out in the freezing cold all night but at least they aren't going around wrecking shit they are a lot smarter than you are they know violence and destruction will only make things worse. but that's ok as long as you can go around stealing shit it doesn't matter right?!


If you are Australian: Do you mean Africans or Aborigines? Calling them both black might be true in terms of skin color, but they are seperate people (would be like calling light-skinned Koreans "white").


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## campbell0505 (Jun 3, 2020)

Viri said:


> When your country has more guns than citizens, your cops pretty much HAVE to carry a gun.


Fair point, and I think it'd be too late for them to change gun rules, especially when they have more guns than people. Only reason that it worked in my country is a mass shooting had occurred at the time (1996) which lead to rules changing, and most people were in support of the buyback. We haven't had a mass shooting in 24 years now I believe. Only way people get gun licenses here now are if they are going hunting in wild areas, or similar stuff, and you're very restriced on what guns you can get, and to even get a license is a huge process from what I've heard. With a nation that's as gun loving as America, I don't believe it'd ever work.


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## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

notimp said:


> As just stated, the polices job is not to protect in this case, but to assert coordinated 'counter pressure'.



The job of the police is always to protect and to serve.



notimp said:


> Reasoning roughly goes, you dont want a mob 'ruling' parts of a town, or changing political structures. Really you dont.



That is why the police need to keep the high ground, they are the ones wholly responsible for this mess & they ought to be doing a much better job at calming it down.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Calling them both black might be true in terms of skin color, but they are seperate people (would be like calling light-skinned Koreans "white").



Witness the racism of political correctness. I recently upset someone of asian decent who wishes to be called brown, for asking why they when they refer to lighter skin africans as black & why are they not black? They tried to explain that I would be offended if someone said I wasn't white, I disagreed and said I'm really more of a light pink colour. They think I'm racist, but they _really_ don't want to be mistaken for african.


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## leon315 (Jun 3, 2020)

TheRedfox said:


> Sources say the developer of Bob's game finally got his revenge for Nintendo not wanting to license his game


I'm curious, what game did Ninty deny the licence?


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

smf said:


> The job of the police is always to protect and to serve.


By applying counter pressure in this instance.

The masses in the streets are not 'in charge', or 'the entire electorate'. So police is serving the government, which would be protecting store owners and other citizens in that instance. (People inside buildings, that are afraid to come out on the streets - f.e.)

But its hard to always talk in that vernacular, so lets just say, they do some stuff as well to administer counter pressure ('you cant argue with a mob' still holds true, so even morally, its ok..  ), and they even do some shadier stuff (state wont sue them..  ), so they'd get clearance to use some harder measures (at least in the public eye), if protests carry on longer.. (to the point where it becomes an image problem for governments (do you want reelections?)).



smf said:


> That is why the police need to keep the high ground, they are the ones wholly responsible for this mess & they ought to be doing a much better job at calming it down.


Short answer here is, you cant. Their only tool for that is to 'show presence in numbers'. Mob reacts to 'uh' bigger stronger mob, maybe we dont engage but not to very much else.

Another tool, maybe would be to use police horses (no joke, they are used as crowd control at stadium events in the UK f.e. because people, strangely act calmer in masses not to scare them, or because they are big animals (actually not sure why, but they work, and are used for that purpose..  ), but I think the situation has developed past that. 
see f.e.: https://old.reddit.com/r/explainlik...w/eli5_why_are_horses_used_for_crowd_control/

Next strongest tool are transparent 'tower shields' or human chains (police fencing in a group of protesters, then pushing them back), then we quickly approach tear gas use already, I'm afraid..


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## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

notimp said:


> By applying counter pressure in this instance.



No. Hell no. That is the reason the backward yokel police keep getting itself in this mess.



notimp said:


> So police is serving the government,



The police certainly aren't there to serve the government.

The police are supposed to uphold the law, but that is less important than protecting lives.

If there is a clear and immediate threat to life (and not just some made up bullshit like the police who committed murder in the first place), then they do need to act carefully to do it. Unfortunately it seems that America likes to recruit idiots into the police force & the fetish of acting like cowboys is going to keep violence going.

The current situation is a good advert for getting rid of all guns in America.


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## Taleweaver (Jun 3, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Well yeah, sure. If we were to put away all our kitchen knives (and cut our balls while we are at it) we would experience less violence. If a rapists rapes your family member, you can also avoid any trouble by just letting it happen.
> Please imagine you are a robber: would you rob a place which can defend itself rather than one that can´t? that´s why force is neccessary. it is a deterrence.


I'll take my chances of no rapists being anywhere near my neighborhood, let alone being interested in what money can buy him for far less hassle, struggle or problems.

Okay, I imagine being a robber. no problem. Again with the European mindset, though. No household can defend itself from me, which nullifies the reason of any house to defend itself. Which nullifies my reason to bring a weapon of any kind.
Oh, right...perhaps a given for you, but we've got a wealthfare system around here. That means that even if I don't have a job, I've got enough to eat and pay the rent (though the quality obviously would be less). So why am I risking that for a few trinkets I don't really need?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Yeah, and if there is no win-win situation due to high risks, there will be no investment.


True. But that doesn't invalidate my point in any way. In fact, it has nothing to do with my point in the first place.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The looters seem to be well-fed, especially the women. Being on food stamps in America far outcompetes being a rural person in China (of which there are still hundreds of millions). Yet, we don´t see looting as a mass sports in China. The culture is different and there is nobody willing to be blamed.


I wasn't talking about literal famine. They aren't heard. And more importantly: they don't feel like they matter.
I won't deny yer average Chinese guy isn't heard from either, and might be well below him. But I bet that if Jinping publicly speaks out against his people in the same way Trump does, there'll be rioting pretty soon as well (prime example would obviously be the Hong Kong situation)



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Protesters can be pissed off. But destruction and looting cannot be excused.


Let me respond by saying this: the acts of destruction and looting shouldn't be the excuse to silence the voice of the people.

The far majority don't want to be out on the streets. They don't want to break social distancing, break curfew or raise a ruckus. They just want the behavior to change. And instead of addressing the nation, making promises of improvement, unitying the country and anything else that should be within the basic task package of a leader, Trump goes exactly in the opposite way, calling the protesters all sorts of names, hides from the people who got him elected and now threatens to bring in the army. That is NOT what the people want from him. And until he backs down, things will escalate. No matter what your or mine opinion is about it.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It is ironic that my view would be considered racist even though you are the one speaking of Untermenschen.


Hmm...I haven't read all the replies, so I'll just address the one I replied to again. I don't think it was racist but plain dumb. You think nazism and racism will soon lose their meaning, but my opinion is that fascist ideology is alive and kicking. Just because they don't use nazism phrases anymore (like 'untermensch') doesn't mean it's somehow not true or even that different.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Your approach is that of a caring mother who lets her child do anything, even when he destroys her home. It might be ok until a certain age. But there needs to be discipline at one point. I assume you see yourself as an "ally" (I love the word, reminds me of videogames). I suggest you watch the video about what happens to allies who give thumbs up to looters: they get their windows smashed in.


I read all sorts of stories of protesters. Cops who join the protest because they disagree with the situation. White women shielding black people from cops. Protesters who stop others from vandalizing. It's not the first protest march where a minority tries to steal the attention by breaking properties, and it won't be the last one. I would suggest you to watch similar video's, as I fear you see the entire protest movement as just an excuse to break stuff rather than send the message that this behavior of the cops (well...and I guess Trump's behavior in extension) simply will not fly.


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

smf said:


> No. Hell no. That is the reason the backward yokel police keep getting itself in this mess.


What is crowd mentality? "We feel strong, because we are many." Although most of it is psychological (crowd psychology), its physiological as well. Hormones are produced, its a high. A crowd wants to grow, nothing increases the crowds high more, than if it gets bigger. Out of this feeling of "we are stong", also grows behavior like rioting. People testing out borders, when rule of law temporary cant be enforced. Its fun. (Not for all people, but for some.) Its even a draw ('uh stuff is burning, lets go watch!), not for all, but for some. The crowd acknowledges that (fun), and doesnt stop this behavior from happening. Because the crowd wants to grow.

And the only ways you stop it, are:

1. You stop it from growing and let the emotionality 'discharge'. Hopefully without much damage to property (which is why you try to limit a mob to a certain area, and dont let it 'roam free').

2. You beat it down.

There is no "you talk to it, and convince it to go home", people in the crowd will literally rebell against the high ending.

Issue: As long as it is growing, the crowd feels as close to invincible as one can. And usually 'feels and acts as one'.

Compare it to some of the dynamics you see/feel at every popular concert in an arena, and extrapolate from there. (There people are mostly in it to feel a soft 'high' from 'we are one' - when you have rage discharging, emotional forces are a little stronger..  Protests have escalated past 'peaceful demonstrations' already, so now you are dealing with containment efforts.

Its the same everywhere in the world, for virtually any issue. That the police is seen as the opponent here, doesnt help, but its seldomly different regardless of why a crowd has stepped over to rioting. People want it to grow to feel better, and they decide anyone who tries to prevent that is the enemy in an instance.  Its just how this pans out.)

Says that guy:


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## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

notimp said:


> 2. You beat it down.



Again, completely the wrong attitude which will have the opposite effect & the dumb reasoning that got you into this mess. You can only talk people down from this, trying to apply pressure will keep it going.

All you're doing is trying to create a narrative of them deserving to be treated badly because of how they are reacting to you treating them badly.

There will be collateral damage, the "innocent" bystanders should reflect on how their behavior led to George Floyds death & therefore these riots. Maybe they could have done more to eradicate racism.


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

@smf
Yes. We agree on that point. You shouldnt beat it down.  (Much too messy.. )

But here is the thing, the vietnam protests toppled over to popular movements, as you gave the movement their martyrs, which became vessels for popular stories, that told everyone 'now they are coming for our children, this is wrong, they (in power) are wrong'. From that point onward it was over.

The social movement won.

So, one has to acknowledge, that every social movement, experiencing itself in protest, also seeks out those 'public stories', to be effective. 

("Girl was only going out to buy groceries, hit with rubber bullet, bleeding profusely, here is her image on twitter, its so wrong.")

So even your opponents would agree on not giving you more opportunities to collect those stories. 

At least the educated ones.  With Trump I'm not so sure. But we've established in here, that even the far right seems to have some intelligent people working for them, when it comes to twitter PR..


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 3, 2020)

Let my simply respond this statement:
"the acts of destruction and looting shouldn't be the excuse to silence the voice of the people."

They absolutely should be. If I see unacceptable behavior in my community (I am also part of a minority group) I will call it out and not join them if they continue. It is a civic duty. If your side plunders and destroys, and you join them anyway, you are part of it. 
Anjem Choudary refused to denounce acts of terrorism, a female HK leader said the same to the face of a British reporter. Both cases are disgusting.


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> They absolutely should be. If I see unacceptable behavior in my community (I am also part of a minority group) I will call it out and...


Here is the thing though. This is how crowds behave, past a certain point of 'we all acknowledge, to meet and then disperse out of free will'. Its not people failing a morals check individually. It is that crowd thing. It always goes that way. (Even down to the point, where several people decide, that with no immediate consequences to fear, looting might be a thing to consider.)

So 'I'm shocked', also isnt quite the correct response. You see people that are 'free'ed' from their individual fears and social constraints (temporarily). They do what seems fun to them (or conducive to their emotional state), or what benefits them, or what attracts more people.


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## Hanafuda (Jun 3, 2020)

notimp said:


> Here is the thing though. This is how crowds behave, past a certain point of 'we all acknowledge, to meet and then disperse out of free will'. *Its not people failing a morals check individually. It is that crowd thing.* It always goes that way. (Even down to the point, where several people decide, that with no immediate consequences to fear, looting might be a thing to consider.)
> 
> So 'I'm shocked', also isnt quite the correct response. You see people that are 'free'ed' from their individual fears and social constraints (temporarily). They do what seems fun to them (or conducive to their emotional state), or what benefits them, or what attracts more people.




Not when they keep coming back to re-commit more violence, thieving, and destruction, on the 2nd and 3rd and 4th night and 5th night, etc. Then it is individual culpability. You went home, you slept, you came back for more. Even those who might claim they're only taking part in a 'protest' and ostensibly disavow any wrongdoing _*knew*_ after that first night that they're helping to perpetuate a cover for the violence, thieving, and destruction.


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## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

notimp said:


> But here is the thing, the vietnam protests toppled over to popular movements,



Because of the way they handled it, which if Trump is anything to go by then nobody has learned anything.

If Trump turned round and said sorry and he would personally make sure racism was ended & made some big gestures, then it would disperse pretty darn quick. I don't expect that to happen though.

He's too busy stoking up hatred to improve his rating.

Meanwhile the police in the UK have been approaching the demonstrations with much greater tact, even though technically at least they are illegal under the current law that prevents more than six people meeting in one place. We had riots the last time the police shot an unarmed black man, racism is everywhere. How you deal with it makes a huge difference.


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> Not when they keep coming back to re-commit more violence, thieving, and destruction, on the 2nd and 3rd and 4th night and 5th night, etc. Then it is individual culpability. You went home, you slept, you came back for more. Even those who might claim they're only taking part in a 'protest' and ostensibly disavow any wrongdoing _*knew*_ after that first night that they're helping to perpetuate a cover for the violence, thieving, and destruction.


Sure, but how do you differentiate (opportunity vs premeditated)?

Also to be clear, I dont say that its excusable - just that it is nothing to be extremely surprised about. If the enforcement would be working those people still have to be tried and face the consequences. Its just, that when it isnt working (and having mass protests in the streets means it isnt working (not enough police in town, no access to certain areas, ...)), that stuff kind of starts happening. First as an 'act of opportunity' maybe, from someone that just 'tried it', next you have people copying the behavior, and as you said, maybe people that come back for multiple nights in a row ("how much stuff is there still left on day three?"  ).

So its not the specific protests fault.

Maybe it is individual morals failing, though. So you are right, and I am wrong on that one.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



smf said:


> Because of the way they handled it, which if Trump is anything to go by then nobody has learned anything.
> 
> If Trump turned round and said sorry and he would personally make sure racism was ended & made some big gestures, then it would disperse pretty darn quick. I don't expect that to happen though.
> 
> He's too busy stoking up hatred to improve his rating.


Totally agree on him handling it like a moron.

Here is his alleged thought process, as far as people are leaking it through the grapewine. He banks on a public pushback, once the protests continue on for too long. It worked for Nixon. 

Washington post says, it will not work for him this time:
https://outline.com/PvjVJh

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/06/02/law-order-wont-help-trump-win-reelection/

Current polling numbers are as follows:
Reuters/Ipsos-poll: A majority of 64 percent of US citizens are sympathizing with the protesters. More than 55 percent say that they are disapproving with how Trump tackles the situation. 40 percent of that strongly. A third of people polled still stands behind Trumps actions.

edit: Hey, police _are_ using them horsies.


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## DripDrop (Jun 3, 2020)

You didn't find any because this is a Gaming Community website. There's no need or want for politics here. Take your arguments to Twitter, we don't want to see them.


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## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> Not when they keep coming back to re-commit more violence, thieving, and destruction, on the 2nd and 3rd and 4th night and 5th night, etc. Then it is individual culpability. You went home, you slept, you came back for more. Even those who might claim they're only taking part in a 'protest' and ostensibly disavow any wrongdoing _*knew*_ after that first night that they're helping to perpetuate a cover for the violence, thieving, and destruction.



Black people are no different to any other opportunistic people of any other color. So it's no surprise that crime increases during times of instability. Which is why you shouldn't give anyone a cause.

If you didn't do everything you could to stamp out racism then you're responsible for this.

This is why you need to end injustice & help people of all colors and walks of life, enjoy the same benefits you enjoy.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 3, 2020)

I guess I should say if people are going to be leaving building supplies around the place then barring any evidence gathering concerns I will volunteer to come along in the van and collect them. Could use a new patio in front of my shed.


Re: Robbers. 

If you are scared enough that someone is going to kick down your door as you sleep and steal your TV and lady friend's valuables then I guess you can account for that the same way someone normally accounts for ninjas or whatever.
If you actually want to protect your stuff then watch the above as that is pretty much the case for every insurance report I have ever read or gone in to clear up after.



smf said:


> If you didn't do everything you could to stamp out racism then you're responsible for this.
> 
> This is why you need to end injustice & help people of all colors and walks of life, enjoy the same benefits you enjoy.


No u in colour? Though if the statement as a whole can be said as a rising tide lifts all ships then OK, and not everything has the same solution.

Anyway the first statement there is one I am going to have to disagree with.
There are any number of things one can do in society to. Sometimes it will conflict with basic principles, other times there is a line for how far you reasonably can be expected to take it.
Likewise 100% purity, coverage or removal or anything is rather difficult in whatever field you are in. Why not be satisfied with 95% gone, leave some to stand guard and go with the rest can linger on or die off but not really cause any great harm?


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

Ah, I see now, where the 'defund the police' demands come from.


They are really making up a dichotomy (one or the other), over social project spending and police spending. For whatever reason. (You can have both, you know?)

At least they are not dumb enough to demand 'community policing'.  But this 'defund the police, and give the money to local community projects' thing is a nationwide talking point amongst activist movements.

I still maintain that that is 'designed to fail' as a demand. (You cant make one dependent on the other.)


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## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> There are any number of things one can do in society to. Sometimes it will conflict with basic principles, other times there is a line for how far you reasonably can be expected to take it.



America doesn't come anywhere close to being reasonable.



FAST6191 said:


> Why not be satisfied with 95% gone, leave some to stand guard and go with the rest can linger on or die off but not really cause any great harm?



Don't complain when it does cause great harm then, you know the risks.


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## notimp (Jun 3, 2020)

notimp said:


> Ah, I see now, where the 'defund the police' demands come from.
> 
> 
> They are really making up a dichotomy (one or the other), over social project spending and police spending. For whatever reason. (You can have both, you know?)
> ...



Looked into who made up the dichotomy. Chomsky says the financial and political elites in the 40s.  Faced with having to admit, that free market economies dont work without being subsidized/regulated, the US was confronted with two possible paths to take to prep up the system it promoted.

First one was social spending. Which had the negative side effects of boosting democracy (quote: people cared where the next hospital would be built) and direct participation.

Second one was military spending, where state subsidies, would flow directly into industry and no one cared about oversight (if sufficiently afraid).

So military spending as an option to 'redistribute' the right way (upwards, as Washington consensus (think Thatcher, worldwide) followed Bretton Woods) was chosen.

So military spending isnt equal to police spending, but then I presume, similar effects where in place there as well.. 

This I'm not sure about, since its new to me, but it sounds plausible enough. 

src: 

edit: According to Chomsky, same with computer technology, in the 50s about 85% of spending on computer development and lasers 'n stuff was subsidized through public spending. (Again, direct to private businesses, with the public not caring or wanting to get involved how it would be distributed.)

Same with the aeronautic industry, same with automation, the containerization (of trade?), machine tools, energy industry, biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, tourism (as one of the few state subsidized service industries), ...


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## FAST6191 (Jun 3, 2020)

smf said:


> America doesn't come anywhere close to being reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't complain when it does cause great harm then, you know the risks.


What else is there required to reach reasonable in your estimation?

I do not desire harm. However I like to believe I know the practical realities of achieving harm reduction. If percentages are low then that is down to individuals and small groups, which are generally limited in scope.


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## Pacheko17 (Jun 3, 2020)

Please fuck off, leave our gaming forums out of this bullshit.
Also



Waygeek said:


> Fuck all police.



Next time you're getting gangbanged or robbed, try calling batman since "MUH POLICE BAD"
Fucking ass. My family's best friend is a police officer and he'd do anything to save your life, I don't know how shitty american police is, but you're a fucking asshole.


----------



## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> What else is there required to reach reasonable in your estimation?



What "else"? You sound like you're assuming you've even started.

The police force needs a complete overhaul. Too many of them escalate situations because they are too scared to deal with the situation. The institutional racism is clear.

You need to deal with the institutional racism in the mortgage lending industry, where black people are turned down for loans because they are trying to buy in white areas. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12552-019-09276-x

That is basic stuff, before we get into expecting people from deprived backgrounds to be able to compete in the work place.

You've fucked most of these people over before they were even born.


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## SG854 (Jun 3, 2020)

How is looting bringing justice for George Floyd and for Black people? 

How is shooting and killing cops who might not even be racist bringing justice for black people?

How is killing Black people bringing justice to Black people?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.c...rge-floyd-many-of-them-african-americans/amp/

People say the riots are necessary to bring light to this issue. So how is rioters killing over a dozen people many of them Black will stop violence against black people? 

They turned one single death, George Floyds and turn it into dozens of deaths. Isn't the point of protest and supposedly rioting to stop black people from being killed, so why are rioters killing innocent black people? 

Is that how they send a message to stop killing black people by killing black people themselves? And protesters stopping firetrucks from reaching burning buildings they themselves set on fire, prevent help from reaching people in need killing innocent people in those fires. 

What the fuck are the rioters setting buildings on fire and stealing electronics have anything to do with george floyd?


----------



## smf (Jun 3, 2020)

SG854 said:


> How is looting bringing justice for George Floyd and for Black people?



It's not. But the looting will happen when people are protesting and people need to protest because how they've been treated.

It would be nice if looting didn't happen, but think of it as payback because you didn't do shit when you should.

Not all police are bad, protesters aren't bad. Looters are bad.


----------



## nero99 (Jun 4, 2020)

how about you keep this stupid shit off a gaming forum? this is the last place we need to keep seeing this stupid shit!


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## smf (Jun 4, 2020)

SG854 said:


> I guess a looter shooting a Black guy trying to steal a TV is payback? And justice for Black People? To wrongs don't make a right.



I didn't say it made it right, I said it made it your fault for standing by letting racism continue.

If you didn't have guns then he wouldn't have been shot either. Anyone who supports people having guns is responsible for every death.


----------



## VinsCool (Jun 4, 2020)

nero99 said:


> how about you keep this stupid shit off a gaming forum? this is the last place we need to keep seeing this stupid shit!


This subforum was specifically created to let people discuss without making the Offtopic subforum get clogged with political discussions.






You can always hide this section from your preference settings and not have to see any discussions, if you want.
This is the best that can be done to allow everyone to freely discuss and also have the discussions in their own section.


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## SortableClock95 (Jun 4, 2020)

This is fucking horrible


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## FAST6191 (Jun 4, 2020)

smf said:


> What "else"? You sound like you're assuming you've even started.
> 
> The police force needs a complete overhaul. Too many of them escalate situations because they are too scared to deal with the situation. The institutional racism is clear.
> 
> ...



I will not disagree that compared to many other places I see the US police (and everything that supports it) could do with some overhauling (if you keep your crazies out in the world it does rather increase the chances of a negative interaction, and the firearms handling ability of most of them is abysmal compared to other places in the world where such things are more a designated role, and education in general about life skills is shockingly poor). To go from that to institutional racism is a different matter entirely.

That article. Do I have to drop £30 to read it? Looks like a reasonable start to a meta analysis but without reading it I can't really comment on it -- I have no resulting stats, comparisons to standard industry methodology (we kind of all went computerised when people realised that was in many ways better than being nice to your bank manager), a full methodology of the study or anything there.

A bad childhood does tend to lead to a harder adulthood, and yeah from what I have seen growing up poor does make it rather harder to rise above that and while the US has some interesting quirks (far from a great meritocracy or anything but the lack of a landed gentry/old money class does see some things happen, and while I am not a fan at all of most educational welfare in the US being a military contract it does have some effects) the net effect is much the same. Not particularly sure how we get to racism from there though, much less abandoning some kind of rising tide approach. The black experience (or American black if we are going anthropological or staying somewhat on topic here) as a whole might warrant something different in terms of a general approach a la medicine (sickle cell say being rather higher, skin cancer less so), as might poor oriental or poor south American warrant further different approaches, but individual tailored is still my preferred approach here.
The workplace is a fun one, though I will note I met several company owners doing very well for not holding out for the magic fairy land wish of a 20 something with no family, no social life/relationships, with serious education, no medical conditions and a willingness to work contract hours for minimum wage and instead trying to work out how to get things done.



Pacheko17 said:


> Please fuck off, leave our gaming forums out of this bullshit





nero99 said:


> how about you keep this stupid shit off a gaming forum? this is the last place we need to keep seeing this stupid shit!



When have these forums ever not had such discussions?


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## Viri (Jun 4, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> you watch the video about what happens to allies who give thumbs up to looters: they get their windows smashed in.


You mean this? As funny as it is, I think the rioters thought they were giving them the finger, or they were mocking them for missing the window the first time.



Spoiler



http://webmshare.com/play/qdPab



--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



nero99 said:


> how about you keep this stupid shit off a gaming forum? this is the last place we need to keep seeing this stupid shit!


This is the political containment section. If this section was removed, it would spill onto the rest of the site. You can hide this section if you do not like it.


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## notimp (Jun 4, 2020)

SG854 said:


> People say the riots are necessary to bring light to this issue. So how is rioters killing over a dozen people many of them Black will stop violence against black people?
> 
> They turned one single death, George Floyds and turn it into dozens of deaths. Isn't the point of protest and supposedly rioting to stop black people from being killed, so why are rioters killing innocent black people?


Ehm.

What are you doing?

Under the link you listed at least two people, and I'm sure the majority of cases were protesters killed by police or store owners, not the other way around.

Second, the source you linked lists violent deaths during the protests in general, where it is unclear who it was, why, under what circumstances. So at this point you are running into usual statistics of people killed in the US. If you cast your net wide...

Dont presume, check sources.

And again, historically - during US race riots, people are killed, so would you have guilt tripped MLK, to stop because none of this would lead to the abolition of racial segregation?

The protests have even drawn international recognition to the issue, in a way this didnt happen in the past, because they were bigger. So they worked.


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## notimp (Jun 4, 2020)

VinsCool said:


> You can always hide this section from your preference settings and not have to see any discussions, if you want.
> This is the best that can be done to allow everyone to freely discuss and also have the discussions in their own section.


Have you just posted an apology for people talking about the race riots in the US, and not acting like if they didn't happen? Whats wrong with your focus on 'we want to please our advertisers, and thereby any controversy must be able to be hidden in 'settings''?

Grow a pair. Dont submit to selective editing of reality.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 5, 2020)

"Not related to games"

Turns out it is




I don't have much in the way of reliable context for this one, and one commenter reckoned one of those might have been an air rifle (certainly an odd rifle shape, stock and scope placement, but I don't know all my 22 rifles).
Though the eat coast wings and grill next to it was boarded up in another shot with some police posing with the crowd so eh.
https://www.restaurantnewsrelease.c...-franchise-breaks-into-the-northeast/8551226/

Mind you I can't support this. Everybody knows campers are the worst.


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## Hanafuda (Jun 5, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> "Not related to games"
> 
> Turns out it is
> View attachment 211991
> ...




Rifle to the left is definitely a break-barrel air rifle. Suitable for killing starlings, maybe squirrels if it's a .22 caliber.

The other two, impossible to say at that resolution. Both appear to be AR pattern rifles, but they make air rifles and .22lr firearms in that configuration for hunters and wannabes too. 

Looks staged.


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## Deleted member 397813 (Jun 5, 2020)

to be perfectly honest, i really hate talking about this. I know that I should, but it just puts me in a bad mood.

Call me an asshole, I don't care.


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## notimp (Jun 5, 2020)

@SG854 Reported your posting above as 'disturbing imagery' (with an added line, that moderators should remove it, or add a warning beforehand - either one is ok with me).

If you arent posting if that person survived subsequently, this could be snuff, and in any case insensitive to the family of the guy that had been shot (you dont see the perpetrator or the act in the video, so that is the line where 'public interest' isnt sufficient enough for such a video to be freely shared as if it were nothing). (This doesnt help catching or convicting the person that did it, this literally is a video showing a person on the verge of dying, while a millennial jumps around him filming it.)


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## emigre (Jun 5, 2020)

Gotta love the number of people calling this 'stupid shit' and being quite irate at this topic existing. 

Institutional and systematic racism is utterly abhorrent and does feel like a natural reaction after multiple high profile incidents like Flloyd and little substantive changes to prevent a repeat. Trump being inflammatory as always never helps.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jun 5, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> You protest against the stay-at-home order, you're considered a threat to humanity.
> You burn entire cities to the ground, you're considered a saint.
> 
> Okay.


Just posting this again.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 5, 2020)

emigre said:


> Institutional and systematic racism is utterly abhorrent and does feel like a natural reaction after multiple high profile incidents like Flloyd and little substantive changes to prevent a repeat.



To what extent does it exist though? Places seem to have rules there, enforced ones at that, aimed at preventing such things in the hiring, firing, interactions and more.

Equally is this the sort of thing that more training, evaluation or whatever would have prevented? Comments from the prosecutor even noted that training was a thing all of them had to say "don't mess with necks", and it is equally widely held justification for serious intervention (one no doubt the people in question would have used as justification for intervention had it been applicable too).
Likewise are we sure it was racism at whatever level or variation that caused this one? It would be an awful shame to go after the wrong cause.


Multiple high profile incidents... such as?
I have seen a fair few dubious calls and police incidents (CCTV being cheap and plentiful, dash cameras, police body cameras and now gun cameras all making for some great viewing if you want to dissect such things) but whether it rises to a level of something like endemic is a different matter. Enough to want some serious reforms though.
Same question about are such things noted as being racism driven?
If the US has said two thirds of a million officers presumably all having multiple interactions a day as a net average are you not going to get the occasional screw up? In some senses one is too many but if life is about managing risk then there will be some number greater than.
Equally when such things do happen are they swept under the rug?


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## Pacheko17 (Jun 6, 2020)

Viri said:


> This is the political containment section. If this section was removed, it would spill onto the rest of the site. You can hide this section if you do not like it.


How do I hide it?


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## FAST6191 (Jun 6, 2020)

Pacheko17 said:


> How do I hide it?


Go to 
https://gbatemp.net/account/new-content
There is an exclude option at the bottom. Select whatever ones you want to remove. Note that you need to select each sub forum individually as they are effectively their own thing and knocking out a parent will not remove them.
Press save.
Bam. No content from such forums in the view new posts https://gbatemp.net/new/ thing. Might still appear on the front page and you can still navigate to it.


Bit of a pity that people can't handle some discussion but "your screen, your rules".


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2020)

People can choose not to read this thread, but some games now force the topic upon gamers by temporarily deactivating online play or showing messages in loading screens.

Can we expect new laws regarding the police under Trump btw? What does the process look like?


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## SG854 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Ehm.
> 
> What are you doing?
> 
> ...


And why were they killed by Store Owners? Because they were rioting the store. Alot of people are getting killed by rioters, cmon there's even more then the link I gave. Lots of cops being shot and people. It doesn't matter who shot who, but we all the the rioting is the reason. Whether in self defense or aggression.

Rioting is fucked up to the store owners. Why do they have to suffer damage and destruction for something someone else caused? It was the cops that killed George Floyd not some random store owner. Now they have to suffer from idiot rioters taking their anger on people that don't deserve it.

Store owners are already in a bad position from covid 19 financial wise. And all the damages this caused will make bankruptcy even more of a problem. Anyone that supports this type rioting in order to get the message out is fucked up.

Ya you are getting your message out. Stop killing blacks and we'll stop harming innocent people and damaging their property. By using force to get what you want. But this that the right message to be sending. Targeting innocent people. You are no better then the cops and are a hypocrite.



smf said:


> I didn't say it made it right, I said it made it your fault for standing by letting racism continue.
> 
> If you didn't have guns then he wouldn't have been shot either. Anyone who supports people having guns is responsible for every death.


And they are doing that by protesting.

That is bullshit logic on guns. If you support guns you are responsible for every death? What the hell. I support cars does that make me responsible for every car death from drunk driving? No it doesn't. Only the people that kill are responsible for their own actions.


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## SG854 (Jun 6, 2020)

emigre said:


> Gotta love the number of people calling this 'stupid shit' and being quite irate at this topic existing.
> 
> Institutional and systematic racism is utterly abhorrent and does feel like a natural reaction after multiple high profile incidents like Flloyd and little substantive changes to prevent a repeat. Trump being inflammatory as always never helps.


The riots are stupid, the protesting is not.

Everyone agrees that the cops abused his power. And that the cop should be punished for it.

It was not within the right of the cop to kill George Floyd.

The only time that it was ok to kill George Floyd is when he held a gun against a pregnant woman when he was robbing for drugs and money. That would've been in the right of the husband to protect his family and kill George Floyd. Floyd got lucky he only got 5 years in prison for armed robbery instead of death.

But with the situation with the cop, it was not within the right of the cop since Floyd wasn't a threat to anybody. And the cop abused his position.


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

SG854 said:


> And why were they killed by Store Owners? Because they were rioting the store.


See, my reaction possibilities list includes all kinds of options, from threatening only, to 'do nothing about it'. Not: rioting > therefore killing.

Just think about other countries, where far fewer people own guns in general. How do you think they get over riots, when they happen?

The answer there, as indicated before, is to have police moving crowds out of zones where looting happened after it happened, to other parts of towns, where looting is less of a possibility. And then the community paying for store owners to get up on their feet again (probably not getting all of the damage reimbursed, but enough, so they dont have to think about 'killing someone').

I'm clinking out of the logic game, that always asks "but who has done something wrong first", and ends with one person dead.


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## SG854 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> See, my reaction possibilities list includes all kinds of options, from threatening only, to 'do nothing about it'. Not: rioting > therefore killing.
> 
> Just think about other countries, where far fewer people own guns in general. How do you think they get over riots, when they happen?
> 
> ...


But we don't live in other countries. We have guns  here. Your solution won't work in a place with guns during this riot.


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

Thats why I said I understand it on the personal level, but dont think it should be a blueprint for store owners, or governments to work with ("arm store owners").


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## SG854 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Ehm.
> 
> What are you doing?
> 
> ...


MLK didn't even believe in rioting. He believed in a peaceful approach. He saw that riots will happen when voices are unheard, understands why they happen, but didn't believe in it.


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## Costello (Jun 6, 2020)

the thread has been renamed because, well, it is now a discussion about the riots


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## SG854 (Jun 6, 2020)

Costello said:


> the thread has been renamed because, well, it is now a discussion about the riots


Wasn't that what this thread was about from the beginning?


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## Costello (Jun 6, 2020)

SG854 said:


> Wasn't that what this thread was about from the beginning?


the thread title was, "why isnt there a thread about the riots" or something


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

Want some free bricks? An old police car?


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jun 6, 2020)

I must say the mayor of Minneapolis deserves an Oskar.

BTW the transcript of the police call has been published. It seems the person Floyd fooled with the 20 Dollars was also an African-American. The person offered to reverse the transaction but called the police when he declined.


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on the nature of looting:



> WASHINGTON, April 1, 2003 (UPI) -- U.S. forces should not be blamed for the lawlessness and looting in Baghdad as it is a natural consequence of the transition from a dictatorship to a free country, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Friday at the Pentagon.
> 
> "The task we've got ahead of us now is an awkward one ... It's untidy. And freedom's untidy. And free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things. They're also free to live their lives and do wonderful things. And that's what's going to happen here," Rumsfeld said.
> 
> ...



Its fine...  It's what free people do... 

src: https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/20...ting-is-transition-to-freedom/63821050097983/

via fefe

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Oh, look, here is a simple thing it turns out that can be done!

Ban the police from using chokeholds.

Minneapolis leaders vote in favor of police reforms; ban choke holds
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/202...e-reforms-ban-choke-holds/6301591359171/?ls=1

I mean, this one is really complicated. Who could have thought of such a thing?!

Those simple solutions in the US really have to be brought out by having days of riots and protest in streets, because otherwise, its so difficult to think of potential concessions and things to do to better the situation of police killing citizens...

We had a guy in here that tried to argue for, this statistically is a non issue, so nothing much can be done about it really, right? Turns out, US hasnt done the simplest of things. (Since the last three times it happened.) Like reform police training, and make it illegal to kneel on a suspects throat.

Thats your model democracy right then and there. Your shining image of what it brings to the world.


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## cj49play (Jun 6, 2020)

Well if you people haven't heard yet but a black retired cop was killed by looters after he went to check on a shop he has been checking on for the owners when the alarm went off routinely. He was shot when he tried to stop the looters from stealing.


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

Don't worry, Rumsfeld says that looting is just an expression of societies becoming more free.

People died during the riots in bagdad as well, you know...

We are just following standards here... (According to the highest US leadership.) Its normal, that they do nothing. Even if amnesty international intervenes, they'll still do nothing.


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## cj49play (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Don't worry, Rumsfeld says that looting is just an expression of societies becoming more free.
> 
> People died during the riots in bagdad as well, you know...
> 
> We are just following standards here... (According to the highest US leadership.) Its normal, that they do nothing.


yeah but a lot of people are claiming the riots are for "black lives matter"


----------



## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

cj49play said:


> yeah but a lot of people are claiming the riots are for "black lives matter"


Yeah, but the US governments response will still be nothing. (Currently they are only posturing 'being tough on protesters' for bragging rights.)

They need the riots to continue until election time in november.

What do we have now? June? Could be tough.


----------



## spotanjo3 (Jun 6, 2020)

The riots are crazy and stupid. They think they are going to resolve it. Absolutely not. Look in the past. Same things and now into 2000's and never resolve at all. Sad, really sad because human are the corruption. Hatred exists and love doesn't exists anymore. It is slow fade in the future.

Therefore, I dont watched them on tv.. TOO DRAMA and PROBLEM. I dont need that! I ignored them and skip the news. REALLY TIRED! NO PEACE. STUPID PEOPLE! Really disappointed!


----------



## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

azoreseuropa said:


> The riots are crazy and stupid. They think they are going to resolve it. Absolutely not. Look in the past. Same things and now into 2000's and never resolve at all. Sad, really sad because human are the corruption. Hatred exists and love doesn't exists anymore. It is slow fade in the future.
> 
> Therefore, I dont watched them on tv.. TOO DRAMA and PROBLEM. I dont need that! I ignored them and skip the news. REALLY TIRED! NO PEACE. STUPID PEOPLE! Really disappointed!


Ok, I'll stopp the trolling for a moment. 

Long term mass protests (which always lead to riots (its baked into crowd behavior)) arent stupid. They are one of the basics in democracy. (Rule of the many, not just a well spoken elite.) Even if you cant change democratic systems (because they are still better than f.e. anarchy), they do help, because they can give them a slight reorientation.

If all systems like in the US are full on 'we have figured it out, dont say a thing' and if the right is hell bent on bringing in more concepts of fashism ("start buying into the nation as a model to solve all your problems", and we give you a little more money - was basically the platform republicans ran on last time) into the fold, protests are an expected reaction, if then - another recession hits.

Now the question still is, can you convince enough old people, that pushing down millennial interests is still what benefits them most. (Because only they matter numbers wise (in elections).)

Roughly..


----------



## spotanjo3 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Ok, I'll stopp the trolling for a moment.
> 
> Long term mass protests (which always lead to riots (its baked into crowd behavior)) arent stupid. They are one of the basics in democracy. (Rule of the many, not just a well spoken elite.) Even if you cant change democratic systems (because they are still better than f.e. anarchy), they do help, because they can give them a slight reorientation.
> 
> ...



Actually, yes they are stupid.. They dont know how to protest in peace but riots ?! And looting ? They are the cowardly. They use protest to riots and looting as an excuse. It is not called peace and it is not negotiation at all. Look in the past ? And today is the same and never improvement at all. They are the jerks and a cowards!



notimp said:


> Yeah, but the US governments response will still be nothing. (Currently they are only posturing 'being tough on protesters' for bragging rights.)
> 
> They need the riots to continue until election time in november.
> 
> What do we have now? June? Could be tough.



You think election is going to resolve anything ? They are the corrupt and always will be. Peace ? Improvement ? A little bit and not so much. That's why I DONT VOTE them and none!


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

azoreseuropa said:


> Actually, yes they are stupid.. They dont know how to protest in peace but riots ?!


Listen to Rumsfeld, riots are only an expression of people freeing themselves...  Ok, I'm trolling again..

Riots are what happens when masses of people get together expressing discontent. It has to do with them feeling powerfull in masses, and wanting to grow (not be restricted).

Rumsfeld knows that - now you do.. 

If that is good or bad - doesnt matter, thats contexture. It just is. (It just is something hat happens during mass events, where anger gets vented.)

Now, you can deal with it better (moving rioters into areas where they can do less damage, ...), but when I read, that in some areas in Minneapolies people have been seen looding the same areas for four consequitive days - they dont seem to do that stuff. Although they publically posture, that they are for a hard clampdown. At the same time free bricks and abandoned old police cars are starting to appear in the middle of streets.

At the same time the CIA is seen in strange almost unmarked police vehicles operating inside countries in those areas. (Now ultimately its hard to say for certain who fallows what agenda at the moment, just that lines are pretty blurry, and not at all as easy to understand as 'rioting is the bad people').

Even if bad, at the same time its used as an excuse to move against peacefull protests with more force, even if bad it seems to be fostered by some unknown forces doing some pretty shady stuff...

Just educate the public on whats happening. Dont put them to sleep with easy messaging of 'rioting is evil'.


----------



## spotanjo3 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Listen to Rumsfeld, riots are only an expression of people freeing themselves...  Ok, I'm trolling again..
> 
> Riots are what happens when masses of people get together expressing discontent. It has to do with them feeling powerfull in masses, and wanting to grow (not be restricted).
> 
> ...



Please dont explain to me. I already know what Riots are. LMAO.  

Those people are not what you talked about. They are using it as an excuse for looting and violence. They are JUST jerks and they are not peacemakers and not getting together expressing discontent at all. It is not called powerful. Those people are the WORSE creatures ever on Earth who do not know how to make in peace at all.

THE WORLD TODAY will NEVER be good in the future. NEVER! It will ONLY getting WORSE and WORSE. Keep your eyes on it and you watch. The sign is already there. THE FUTURE IS NOT GETTING BETTER. NONE!


----------



## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

azoreseuropa said:


> Please dont explain to me. I already know what Riots are. Those people are not what you talked about. They are using it as an excuse for looting and violence.


Hey I never said that it was good. Just listen to Rumsfeld, he likes it. He thinks its just societies becoming more free.

Sorry for explaining stuff to you. Back to trolling.


----------



## spotanjo3 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Hey I never said that it was good. Just listen to Rumsfeld, he likes it. He thinks its just societies becoming more free.
> 
> Sorry for explaining stuff to you. Back to trolling.



No, you never said that but I just want to say it in my own word. I am not listen to Rumsfeld. He likes it and that's his problem and he think it is becoming more free but it is not absolutely becoming more free at all. Therefore he is 87 years old and he need to retire. SMH!

You are forgiven. Dont go back to trolling!


----------



## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

No the problem is, that you are a fundamentalist, that doesnt want to look at nuance.

Anyone that doesnt preach your gospel, is bad in your mind. Even if they were the conservative Secretary of State of the US at one time. 

You want to establish a Disney level story ideal of whats good, and whats bad. Without looking at human nature. Without looking at crowd behavior. Without looking at strange actions that should be the result of agent provocateurs being used on peaceful protesters, to make them more violent to get legitimacy (in the form of public consent), to move against them more forcefully.

The president in the US is stated to be all in on a 'law and order strategy' and you are copying that, without looking at what is happening at all.

You are just picking up violent acts, selectively, saying that they are wrong, because they are violent - and aiding to the narrative, that force has to be used on your own citizens to stop it.

You are currently the problem.

Because you would stand for forceful moves against protesters, at the first glimps of  hearing that they smashed a window. Because you are promoting videos of violence against state forces, or shop owners, to induce more violence on citizens to stop it.

You are a hypocrite - that wants the world first and foremost, to be easy. You are putting people to sleep.

Currently you are entitled to your opinion of course.


The issue here is, that in about two weeks time, the government will shift onto your line of thought publicly, and declare the use of more violence 'needed' to shut all of this down. At which point you can start your 'I've always said it' gloating. But currently you are helping them setting that up, by telling the world, that you know wrong from right, by simply looking at it - and to stay away, with any argument that doesnt support your moral knowledge.

People that prey on moral superiority, also hold bibles high, after having moved peacefull protesters out of an area by force.

None of this is simple or easy.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Oh, look, here is a simple thing it turns out that can be done!
> 
> Ban the police from using chokeholds.
> 
> ...



Was it not already illegal in that circumstance (a cuffed and several minutes complying non violent suspect with backup on scene and managed crowd) and contrary to training? Dude caught a straight murder charge in short order and I doubt it was for optics either (many other things equally unambiguous seem to take their sweet time to have a full investigation as well, not to mention the several days for the others to have anything done where optics would surely have demanded more there).

There might be some scope to debate whether the "reform" there removes a useful tool of police in some circumstances (again any restraint, martial arts, threat assessment, medic or the like will tell you messing with someone's neck is a bad plan if you don't want to seriously risk death and serious injury, though usually less than 2 in the body and one in the head) but I don't see it as bothering anything here. Now the guy in new york selling cigarettes some time back is a different matter but hey.

Also where did someone argue it was statistically a non issue? I have been reading the thread and missed that one and generally like to take on stats based debates.


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Was it not already illegal in that circumstance (a cuffed and several minutes complying non violent suspect with backup on scene and managed crowd) and contrary to training? Dude caught a straight murder charge in short order and I doubt it was for optics either (many other things equally unambiguous seem to take their sweet time to have a full investigation as well, not to mention the several days for the others to have anything done where optics would surely have demanded more there).


Obviously it was not. Dude caught a murder charge (third degree), after a public video surfaced, and after the prosecutor, who was known to spring police men free under similar charges in the past (please double check before you quote me on this, I just caught the rumor) did a little song and dance for two days, while riots were going on.

Regardless. The point I'm making is about perception.

If it is taught to police officers that this behavior (kneeling on a guys throat for 8 minutes) is fine - which obviously it is - because none of the bystanding - what three? - police officers said anything, stuff like this is prone to happen.

Since in the US after the first three killings that way it didnt catch legal scrutiny, obviously a protest was needed, to make that more visible.

Thats the good thing about a state government backpadling so hard, you see them scramble per press release, you also see the stuff that was overlooked, that now is pulled as appeasement.

And we all know how policework works. What counts as excessive force is subject to debate, until you kneel on a guys throat for 8 minutes.

If you catch me two days from now, I might be less animated about it.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 6, 2020)

notimp said:


> Obviously it was not. Dude caught a murder charge (third degree), after a public video surfaced, and after the prosecutor, who was known to spring police men free under similar charges in the past (please double check before you quote me on this, I just caught the rumor) did a little song and dance for two days, while riots were going on.
> 
> Regardless. The point I'm making is about perception.
> 
> ...


Why be animated? Dispassionate analysis gets far more done.

I have no idea what the failure of thought was for the guys in question here but
"If it is taught to police officers that this behavior (kneeling on a guys throat for 8 minutes) is fine - which obviously it is [taught]"
I have very serious doubts that any police officer or trainer anywhere at any time anybody is alive to remember (much less still be any kind of active) would make that claim, and at the same time all would also be able to articulate that should they have wandered up to a scene and seen that then that would be a person engaged in using lethal force.

What was the lag between the killing, the video, the suspensions and the charge? What is the typical lag time (courts are generally not noted as being fast affairs, and you do also want to do your due diligence).
As for rumours then going to need more than half remembered things in passing here. Prosecutorial records (do also make sure it is the same DA), previous incidents within the jurisdiction (or any they previously covered if they moved around the state), any police use of force independent review boards and the like all being public record. I have not read the most articles about this but none seem in a hurry to say "over the last ? years in this area we have seen..." and I would like to believe a pattern like that would be picked up upon.

I will return to the stats though. Two thirds of a million with an average of many interactions and incidents per day. You will get a screw up eventually. As long as things are properly investigated and prosecuted/sanctions levied where fault is found, and failures learned from, then that is as much as I can really hope for. Actions allowed, equipment used, techniques employed, manuals and whatnot can all vary by location and be subject for debate (policing is not an easy action after all).
Incoherent protesting turning into riots is going to accomplish little from where I sit and as such I do have to condemn the riots and ask the protestors to get me some kind of well thought out demands. There are certainly great failings in both the police and outside factors that in turn feed into what the police have to deal with.


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Why be animated? Dispassionate analysis gets far more done.


Thats why I'm worthless for every elite I ever met. Because I'm emotional. Not stupidly so - but emotional.

Thereby I understand your point.

And you still loose, because you dont understand people.

(Just a rhetorical play - I dont hate you, I think you are correct, .... really.  )



FAST6191 said:


> What was the lag between the killing, the video, the suspensions and the charge? What is the typical lag time (courts are generally not noted as being fast affairs, and you do also want to do your due diligence).


Lag time for a police officer to actually be arrested after a murder? About a week or so...

(Prosecution still publicly did that song and dance, before announcing the charges. The entire process went pretty fast, all things considered - you are correct on that.)


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## FAST6191 (Jun 6, 2020)

There is scope for me to further understand people (it is a minor hobby rather than something I delve into as much as other things I do) but I would like to believe I do it well enough -- if I can see things both overt and covert, predict things given a set of initial parameters and manipulate things accordingly for most situations I encounter then I figure that is good enough.

To that end I understand that people that believe they are in some way oppressed, and the police (themselves racist agents of some authority responsible for the oppression that run around with impunity) are agents of said same, and have just had a serious financial and social blow that most in general are ill equipped to withstand, that tensions can run high and lashing out is a course of action that will relieve that.
Wind in some other actors with various agendas and levels of awareness and some others that just fancy getting themselves some cool shit and you get yourself a riot.
At that point things important to the areas riots are taking place in are broken, will likely not get fixed any time soon (and the time lag in and of itself is an issue) and the issues under protest are if not non issues then wildly miscategorised possibly as a mistake or possibly as a deliberate ploy.

To that end I can happily condemn destruction, condemn the event that purportedly sparked this, analyse and condemn historical events to see if there is a pattern, condemn those stoking further destruction, attempt to detect and condemn false narratives, attempt to detect and condemn poor use of analysis/stats/logic and possibly suggest solutions and further causes to look into and more quite happily. Can also do all that quite happily without having to go with the idea that the pigs are a bunch of jackbooted racist thugs that murder, nay kill as it is legally sanctioned, with wanton abandon in support of a system that wants to keep the darkies down and consider such narratives both false, unlikely to ever produce a good outcome (and even if it does be 100 times slower than going after actual causes), and dangerous to boot.


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## notimp (Jun 6, 2020)

Chill.  I just pushed your buttons a little.


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## smf (Jun 7, 2020)

SG854 said:


> That is bullshit logic on guns. If you support guns you are responsible for every death? What the hell. I support cars does that make me responsible for every car death from drunk driving? No it doesn't. Only the people that kill are responsible for their own actions.



No, but if you drink drive then you do support killing people.
Just because you happen to have been lucky to not kill someone, doesn't let you off the hook.

If you support having guns in public it's because you support people using them in the heat of the moment when your logic is impaired. You don't get a do-over, the person is dead because you felt scared for subjective reasons. If nobody had a gun, then you'd also be able to remove "I'm scared because he might have a gun".

And if ending the senseless killings aren't enough. Guns are a sign of weakness, everyone laughs at you. You can either get more guns in a misguided attempt to try to rescue your low self esteem or do something that shows great strength.


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## notimp (Jun 8, 2020)

I'm astonished. 

Trump just announced, that he will retract the national guard from Washington D.C., (while the NYC major has just canceled the curfew.) They are de-escalating. 

Trump insists, that he did it, because numbers are getting smaller already. Which might be true. 

src: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/us/politics/trump-military-troops-protests.html

Meanwhile, the pretty insane proposition to disband police and bet on community policing has reached minneapolis city council members (oh, boy... (symbolic actions, much)).
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...-announce-intent-to-disband-police-department


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## Captain_N (Jun 8, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> yeah the answer is to loot and cause as much violence as possible that always fixes things doesn't it? your just making yourselves look like asses in front of the whole world. and if trump does bring in the military it's never going to be the same ever again afterwards there is no doubt going to be new laws, restrictions and curfews. we have black people here too protesting but at least they are peaceful they are standing out in the freezing cold all night but at least they aren't going around wrecking shit they are a lot smarter than you are they know violence and destruction will only make things worse. but that's ok as long as you can go around stealing shit it doesn't matter right?!



There are activist groups behind the violence that want to see America fundamentally transformed.


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## notimp (Jun 8, 2020)

Captain_N said:


> There are activist groups behind the violence that want to see America fundamentally transformed.


No.

Judging from the demands of the activist groups, imho they dont know what they want, several of their demands were just 'designed to fail' (more for virtue signaling on social media than for anything else, imho (community policing sounds good - until you think about it)), but because of the protests they now get a platform and a possibility to enact some of their demands.

I'll bet you 'community policing' will not become a standard within even one major city in the US, and funding community projects will not be tied to defunding police departments. (Those are Black lives matters demands, as of right now.)

Other than that, the public protests are sincerely lacking in the 'demands' department. (The protest has no leaders, so far, not much of an internal organization structure...)

The actual actions that should result from this are - maybe a nationwide ban on police chokeholds, and police training reforms.

Thats not radical transformation.

edit: In Minneapolis, the police department might be dismantled and a new one might be designed from the ground up. More for symbolic action, than that this would spread throughout the nation.


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## JoeBloggs777 (Jun 8, 2020)

Abacaba have just put this video of Police killings in the US and the UK, 2009-2020 on youtube

shocking difference in the figures


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## notimp (Jun 8, 2020)

JoeBloggs777 said:


> shocking difference in the figures


123 times higher (already adjusted for population differences)


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## notimp (Jun 8, 2020)

Rate of gun related killings is roughly 4.4 times higher in the US than in the UK. So there is a specific 'policing' issue here as well (not just culture).

edit: Bad comparison. Need to compare with overall homicide numbers.
edit2: Done:
US: p.a. 15.500
UK: p.a. 700

Adjusted for population differences, US homicide rate is 4.4x higher.

This makes the 123x value above very much a policing issue.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 8, 2020)

Do we expect population parity?

Is not accounting for justified vs unjustified in the graphic worth it?

What are the relative police numbers? What are the relative numbers per unit area?

Back to parity does population density, healthcare (UK has free and generally pretty good mental health controls, the US not so much), weapon ownership (and ease thereof, nature of carry as well), measurements of poverty, education quality and more not merit consideration?
To my mind those all look like far more viable points to look at than "OMG the filth are violent racist thugs get rid of them".


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## Taleweaver (Jun 8, 2020)

JoeBloggs777 said:


> Abacaba have just put this video of Police killings in the US and the UK, 2009-2020 on youtube
> 
> shocking difference in the figures





Whoa...I knew US police was more trigger happy than in Belgium, but this is just insane. So there's police brutality EVERY FREAKING DAY FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS??? 



@notimp: you've made your point on why you think communal service is a bad idea (or madness, as I remember you describing it). But really...with these numbers you've got to admit there's some logic that people don't feel safe around the police in that country.


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## notimp (Jun 8, 2020)

No, no - communal service (edit: not the same as policing) is a good idea, imho.

More financing for communal service is also a good idea. (Just dont chain it to the inverse of police force spending and you are good (how one is connected to the other is not immediately obvious, why link them 1:1 (like in the demands) - was my point).)

Community policing, should become problematic in large cities (where people largely dont tend to know each other, and the police force has a hard time to get to know 'a community').

It depends on what is meant by the term though, when I read through the wiki article, it largely seemed to be a 'feel good' initiative (being capable of reducing petty crime), that listed the 'broken windows' theory as a reference point for why total crime might go down as well. Meaning, probably not a way you could run a police force in a larger city. (At least not exclusively.)

I'm also in favor of recruiting more police out of the community it is policing, whenever possible. (Stated that a few pages back already.)


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## FAST6191 (Jun 8, 2020)

notimp said:


> Community policing, should become problematic in large cities (*where people largely dont tend to know each other, and the police force has a hard time to get to know 'a community'*).


Have you been to American suburbs?
Nobody knows anybody else there either -- they just get in their car, drive to wherever, drive back (possibly directly into a garage) and sit by themselves.
It is generally seen as one of the big failings of suburbs.


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## notimp (Jun 8, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Have you been to American suburbs?
> Nobody knows anybody else there either -- they just get in their car, drive to wherever, drive back (possibly directly into a garage) and sit by themselves.
> It is generally seen as one of the big failings of suburbs.


Wiki has the problematic aspects spelled out pretty well already:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_policing



> Criminologists have raised several concerns vis-a-vis community policing and its implementation. On the broadest conceptual level, many legal scholars have highlighted that the term "community," at the heart of "community policing," is in itself ambiguous.[49] Without a universal definition of the word, it is difficult to define what "community policing" should look like.[50][51]





> The term "community policing" came into use in the late 20th century[13] and, then, only as a response to a preceding philosophy of police organization.[14]
> 
> In the early 20th century, the rise of automobiles, telecommunications and suburbanizationtransformed how the police operated.[15] Police forces moved to using a reactive strategy versus a proactive approach, focusing on answering emergency calls as quickly as possible and relying on motor vehicle patrols to deter crime.[16] Some police forces such as the Chicago Police Departmentbegan rotating officers between different neighborhoods as a measure to prevent corruption,[17][18]and, as a result, foot patrols became rare. These changes significantly altered the nature of police presence in many neighborhoods.



Those are proper arguments.

Activists demands to replace one with the other are - as critics would say, a 'romantic delusion'.


Spoiler



in 1984 Peter Waddington cautioned that the "largely uncritical acceptance with which [the notion of community policing] has been welcomed is itself a danger. Any proposal, however attractive, should be subjected to careful and skeptical scrutiny."[52] In particular, Waddington voiced concern that community policing was merely a restoration of the "bobby on the beat" concept, which had nostalgic appeal because it was less impersonal than the officer "flashing past" in a police car. He said that the former was a "romantic delusion", because "there was never a time when the police officer was everyone's friend, and there will never be such a time in the future." He also believed that order could only be maintained by the community itself, and not by the police alone.



Or as I would say - a point crafted to mainly attract social media attention towards activist groups, not an actually viable demand.

(Also yes, it doesnt seem to work in cities _and_ suburbs.)


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## UltraSUPRA (Jun 8, 2020)

I've been stealing memes from Facebook.


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## Fugelmir (Jun 9, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I've been stealing memes from Facebook.


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## spotanjo3 (Jun 9, 2020)

YAWN -- DRAMA!


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## UltraSUPRA (Jun 14, 2020)

If less than 1% of the rioters got the Coronavirus, then the lockdown should end.


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## notimp (Jun 15, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If less than 1% of the rioters got the Coronavirus, then the lockdown should end.


Noo... (*slowmo no*  ) Lockdown ends based on 'new infections rate'. And a deliberation on how long the lockdown already has been going on.

It already pretty much ended where I'm from (with some notable exceptions (mass events), borders still not open with certain countries, facemasks mandatory still in some places in public) so we've been through it. 

In most western countries Covid-19 infections were limited to, at most, 1-3% of population so far. What 'flattened the curve' was people changing behavior in a mixture of forced and voluntary.

When you say 'only one percent has it, so wayne' you are thinking linearly, the virus propagation curve - if people 'behave entirely like before the start of the crisis' is exponential though.

If one percent of your population 'actively spread it', you are basically effed.  Luckily 1% of your population 'had it' and 'have it', with many of it on the 'had it' side, which means its active in far less than one percent of your population, and the majority of that isnt spreading it anymore, thanks to the lockdown and facemasks (facemasks is 'spreading it less').

Remember, this all ends when infections have reached 60-70% of population, or when a vaccine is widely distributed, or when a good treatment is available. Not before. The rest is just 'a game in regards to how to get there'. Lockdown helps very much, because you let most of the people become healthy again on their own, or in hospitals (while absolute numbers hopefully are still low), while you are reducing spread extremely harshly (look at daily new infection graphs in the other thread). Issue: You cant do lockdown for half a year, or two years. Not even for three months consecutively.

So you will be talking about 'easing lock downs' down to the point where you'd not see them as lockdowns anymore, but you'd still have modified behavior patterns in some social situations, but that only happens - normally, when daily new infection rates are so low, that you can somewhat track individual cases manually. Mostly because its better to get them really, really low, so you have some leeway, before infection rate explodes again, if your public doesn something not so good for the propagation, like rioting without facemasks.. 

Also - going by what you can see in the difference between excess mortality in the US overall, and f.e. in NYC - while some of the US will almost live like there is no Covid-19 epidemic out there, certain cities, for a long time, will not.

That doesnt mean endless lockdowns and curfews though.  Those always are time limited to 'as close to three months as you can get.. ', if at all - with the severity of the virus we are talking about. (edit: Actually pretty much regardless of severity, because 'damage to the economy' is so large..  )

Basically there are other points where you could argue, why the reaction might have been 'too harsh' (in the US less so..  ), but 'because only 1% of population have it' is not one...  Luckily, far less than 1% of population cases are currently 'active' in the US. And 'modified behavior' (mass gatherings) is what keeps that in check or not. (Until better treatment or a vaccine is found, or 60% of population got infected, but slowly.  NYC had a deathrate 7x the normal one as hospitals became overtaxed, even if thats 'only old people', thats no joke.)

edit: Here is the 'only 1% of population has it' calculation for a growth rate of 33% (infection number doubles every 3 days) 




If 33% daily growth rate continues, you have 18 days until everyone has it.. 
(You can play with it here: https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/exponential-growth-calculator.html )

Luckily sustaining 33% daily growth rate is hard.  And joking aside you are no where near that growth rate anymore - according to your testing, even if you only test 1/3 of everyone else in the world..  But you were, at one point in time. We all were. At least according to positive test results we saw.  ('Bunching up effects')

edit: Also, people would not have been infectious for all of those 18 days. As we now know, they only are highly infectious for a few days (afair 3-5), and then less infectious for the subsequent two weeks. That way, 33% daily growth rate isnt sustainable.. 

edit: Current rate of active cases doubling is about 2 months, so an average daily growth rate of about 1% (during that period) and declining.  But lets look at the calculation IF, the daily growth rate would remain at 1% (which it will not, it will progressively come down, until it is not a problem anymore.).




Then in two years, everyone in the US would have it..  Thats starting with 1% of your population being infected and a growth rate of 1% per day.

Real daily growth rate currently should be about 0.17% (worldwide) hopefully still declining. You can fill in those values into the calculator yourself. 

Exponential means, it can become a problem pretty quickly, but problem also goes away pretty quickly, if you do something thats effective. (Stop the exponential growth potential harshly, and then in a more sustained fashion, less harshly (at already a lower rate).)

edit: Funny aside - best treatment so far seem to be antibodies from blood plasma donors. So what might/will be helping to solve this, is poor populations donating blood. That 'industry' in the US is effed up beyond believe, but now potentially a valuable part of whats saving the day. Funny how that works..  (But also kind of explains, why politics is not left in the hands of science, at least not entirely..  )


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## notimp (Jun 19, 2020)

Proof that tear gas is used in crowdcontrol, right after 'plastic shields' dont do you any good anymore.  And this isnt just the police being so unfair, and mean to protesters.. 






In france at a large grocery chain, they sold PS4s for 95 Euros for a day.

Police had to use teargas to disperse the crowd. 
src: https://www.somagnews.com/selling-ps4-95-euro-opening-store-france-caused-conflict/

Also notice the (Covid-19 mandated) sefety distance everyone is adhering to. Not.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 19, 2020)

Never get that kind of fun in Lidl here or the others that I have been to (never been to a French one though). Indeed I don't know that I have ever actually seen them sell a computer game (maybe a kids PC waste of a disc but even that would be a rarity).

They do have decent offers on some surprisingly OK tools though, and some good food (if a bit limited in selection).


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## UltraSUPRA (Jun 20, 2020)

If the cops get abolished, and a criminal tries to shoot you, do you pull out a gun and shoot them, or do you die?


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## Captain_N (Jun 20, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If the cops get abolished, and a criminal tries to shoot you, do you pull out a gun and shoot them, or do you die?



I'm my state you have the right to protect yourself with a firearm. In other states big scary guns are a no no, but fire bombs are ok


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