# Preserving old games is illegal because it's 'hacking', according to the ESA



## nxwing (Apr 14, 2015)

​If it were up to the ESA, modifying my old NES is illegal. Image from Wikipedia.​ 
Do take note that this only applies in the US. The fate of other countries is not yet known.

Modifying games is illegal even if you own them, according to the ESA. They have stated that this is a form of hacking and should not be tolerated by the law. Preserving old games? That's illegal too! That's what the ESA says apparently. This means that ROM Hacks and unofficial translations are illegal, according to what the ESA has said.



			
				IGN said:
			
		

> The Entertainment Software Association wants to prevent the preservation of old games because it believes the process of restoring them is illegal 'hacking'.


 
Now, I do know that piracy is all bad and such but aren't they taking it too far? The said act which is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act’s anti-circumvention provisions (Section 1201) prevents users from modifying games and other forms of media and putting them in museums is illegal. This too applies to other forms of entertainment such as art and books.

Full article at IGN


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## migles (Apr 14, 2015)

when did programmed obsolesce become obligatory?

basically, if i have an old car, it's illegal to repair it, and i must get a new one?


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

Preserving a 30 plus year old game which I legally bought and is no longer sold in anyway such as pan,eshop,etc and made by a defunct company that has been closed for 20 years can be considered illegal is beyond retarded


Also makes me wonder what will happen to the retron5?


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## migles (Apr 14, 2015)

RevPokemon said:


> Also makes me wonder what will happen to the retron5?


 
didn't archive.org was offering a service to provide old games\emulators? just checked, yes i can play sega games on it, isn't that illegal?


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

migles said:


> didn't archive.org was offering a service to provide old games\emulators? just checked, yes i can play sega games on it, isn't that illegal?


Who know? Maybe its legal to preserve via a license?


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## FAST6191 (Apr 14, 2015)

Awesome. I can hold my head higher at hacker conventions/conferences.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

Screw the ESA, I'm still keeping my backed up games. ;O;



RevPokemon said:


> Preserving a 30 plus year old game which I legally bought and is no longer sold in anyway such as pan,eshop,etc and made by a defunct company that has been closed for 20 years can be considered illegal is beyond retarded
> 
> 
> 
> Also makes me wonder what will happen to the retron5?


 
This is utterly asinine and completely unenforcable. There is no way they can stop people from doing what they've been doing lol. ESA can eat my shorts. There needs to be copyright exemptions to this.


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## nxwing (Apr 14, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> Screw the ESA, I'm still keeping my backed up games. ;O;
> 
> 
> 
> This is utterly asinine and completely unenforcable. There is no way they can stop people from doing what they've been doing lol. ESA can eat my shorts. There needs to be copyright exemptions to this.


EFF is doing its best to ask the Copyright Office to make exemptions for videogames. Hopefully they succeed


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

ArnoDorian said:


> EFF is doing its best to ask the Copyright Office to make exemptions for videogames. Hopefully they succeed


 

Definitely, they should be able to make exemptions. Oh and the ESA, yeah, they have too much power, and they can't enforce this on everyone, that, and people will just host more ROM/ISO sites outside US jurisdiction   ESA can burn for all I care


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## weiff (Apr 14, 2015)

Another very interesting thing that this prevents is porting games, unless by the original company or current copyright holder... of the software.

It takes no account of the owner of the IP either.

Oh well, guess no more cross platform games from third party studios....


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## Bladexdsl (Apr 14, 2015)

what a bunch of fuck-tards


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> Definitely, they should be able to make exemptions. Oh and the ESA, yeah, they have too much power, and they can't enforce this on everyone, that, and people will just host more ROM/ISO sites outside US jurisdiction   ESA can burn for all I care


ESA supported copa/pipa and is funded by the companies so no wonder it supports it


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

RevPokemon said:


> ESA supported copa/pipa and is funded by the companies so no wonder it supports it


 

I hope the ESA burns in hell and that the EFF and other good organizations get legal exemptions to this BS.


Oh and *plays the ROMs and ISO images on his HDD* lol





Bladexdsl said:


> i guarantee every single one of these retards have never even played a game in their life. probably made up of whinging old bastards who have nothing better to do!


 
Fucking numskulls.


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## Bladexdsl (Apr 14, 2015)

i guarantee every single one of these retards have never even played a game in their life. probably made up of whinging old bastards who have nothing better to do!


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> I hope the ESA burns in hell and that the EFF and other good organizations get legal exemptions to this BS.
> 
> 
> Oh and *plays the ROMs and ISO images on his HDD* lol
> ...


The MPAA and riaa also have a large part in this with their support of DMCA and what not tho.


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## nxwing (Apr 14, 2015)

Good thing I'm not in the US *proceeds to play simpsons on mame*


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## Bladexdsl (Apr 14, 2015)

and i'll happily keep using this bad boy!


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

RevPokemon said:


> The MPAA and riaa also have a large part in this with their support of DMCA and what not tho.


 

Too bad, I'm still going to do it anyways, as will countless thousands of others who do the same. This isn't enforceable by any means lol. Bloody anti-backup sycophants. 

*Continues to backup Wii games*


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## sarkwalvein (Apr 14, 2015)

Excuse me for my naivety // ignorance, but I spent a full minute thinking why the hell would the European Space Agency have a word in this topic.


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## nxwing (Apr 14, 2015)

sarkwalvein said:


> Excuse me for my naivety // ignorance, but I spent a full minute thinking why the hell would the European Space Agency have a word in this topic.


Many people thought the same


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

sarkwalvein said:


> Excuse me for my naivety // ignorance, but I spent a full minute thinking why the hell would the European Space Agency have a word in this topic.


Simple you can use nes ROM files to build a rocket via the 26 method with electronic conductorS


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## Sheimi (Apr 14, 2015)

"Rom hacks illegal". Can you fucking not?

America is so fucking backwards on things.


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## p1ngpong (Apr 14, 2015)

Sad news, better delete all my retro roms before the police come


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

p1ngpong said:


> Sad news, better delete all my retro roms before the police come


If this passes or becomes law will all talk of back ups and preserving files be removed from gbatemp?


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## nxwing (Apr 14, 2015)

RevPokemon said:


> If this passes or becomes law will all talk of back ups and preserving files be removed from gbatemp?


I think we'll have to use morse code made by stafg for that one


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## shakirmoledina (Apr 14, 2015)

I want to be a jerk and try to think like the ESA for a change
"_(Section 1201) prevents users from modifying games and other forms of media and putting them in museums is illegal. _"

It's basically saying that you cannot modify what's not yours. Even if a game is old, it still isn't *entirely* your property. I don't think this is any different to what we have been hearing about current games and software. I have a problem with this type of transactions. When I sell you something, I am giving you the right over that product. I don't have any right to dictate to you what you can do with it. If I want to sell it back as MY PRODUCT then that can be argued about however modification is simply my choice whether it's new or old.
And this statement doesn't restrict new from old.

I may be very off from understanding the background of this ruling.


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## Smuff (Apr 14, 2015)

Clearly the American police need more reasons to shoot citizens in the back 

#OooohTopical


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## Sheimi (Apr 14, 2015)

I get a vibe that modding your own console (I guess via soldering) would be considered illegal hacking. If it's true from what I read, that is pretty stupid. I will still be working on my beta remake if it passes.


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## nxwing (Apr 14, 2015)

Sheimi said:


> I get a vibe that modding your own console (I guess via soldering) would be considered illegal hacking. If it's true from what I read, that is pretty stupid.


Replacing batteries from GB/GBC games would also be illegal


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

Sheimi said:


> I get a vibe that modding your own console (I guess via soldering) would be considered illegal hacking. If it's true from what I read, that is pretty stupid.


Probably under the sense it is not normal to do by default.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 14, 2015)

ESA's a bunch of shills of the industry, just like the MPAA is in terms of movies. They don't want you to keep software safe, they want you to re-purchase it over and over. I've voiced my opinion on this several times - storage media, regardless of what they store, are prone to damage and deterioration, however the state of the storage does not affect the validity of the licenses. Every user should have a right, bah, obligation to back their legally owned content up as long as they use only the number of copies specified in the license. Any anti-copying measures standing in the way of legally insuring your content should be frowned upon and criminalized.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 14, 2015)

It's only getting worse..


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## sarkwalvein (Apr 14, 2015)

Smuff said:


> Clearly the American police need more reasons to shoot citizens in the back
> 
> #OooohTopical


Since when did the police on the USA need any reason to shoot you in the back other than they feeling like it or you being black?

bestcountryintheworld.com


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

sarkwalvein said:


> Since when did the police on the USA need any reason to shoot you in the back other than they feeling like it or you being black?
> 
> bestcountryintheworld.com


Or poor or gay or trans or Hispanic or...


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## Sheimi (Apr 14, 2015)

sarkwalvein said:


> Since when did the police on the USA need any reason to shoot you in the back other than they feeling like it or you being black?
> 
> bestcountryintheworld.com


Murica always punishes the poor, gays, trans, Hispanics.


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

Sheimi said:


> Murica always punishes the poor, gays, trans, Hispanics.


And don't forget women!!!


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## Tom Bombadildo (Apr 14, 2015)

So...assuming they bother enforcing this (protip: they won't), what would happen to GBAtemp? We do kind of host a lot of information about this stuff, as well as various ROM hacks and such as well. 

Not really important in the long run anyways, since they won't do shit to enforce this, but it's still worth thinking about.


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## TeamScriptKiddies (Apr 14, 2015)

Actually under section 117 of US Copyright law, backing up software that you purchased is completely legal. The ESA is full of crap and they like many other "Anti-Piracy" outfits try to make up arbitrary laws as they go along. I support the EFF in clarifying things with a more exact exemption to the DMCA. 

These "Anti-piracy" organizations are not doing this in the name of stopping piracy, that's an illusion, they just want 100% control over all content use. Sorry but consumers have rights too. They want people to not be able to backup their stuff, because they want to "resell" it to you over and over again. Paying fist over hand for the same product again and again. This is not what copyright was intended for, milking customers for everything they have. Nor was it meant to benefit corporations who had nothing to with the creation of the content in question (I'm looking at you RIAA/MPAA/IFPI). Its meant to protect content creators as well as consumers.....

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117


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## Deleted User (Apr 14, 2015)

Honestly I don't give a fuck about what the ESA says. My shit is my shit. I paid money for it, and therefore I can do what I want with it. How are they going to track me anyways?


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## marksteele (Apr 14, 2015)

one sided reporting ftw? Let's be honest 99% of translations and mods need a hacked console. If they were to allow for the DMCA exemption then they WOULD have to sanction hacking consoles (call it what you want but we have the "Hacking & Homebrew" section in each forum for a reason).

The ESA is making a big stink over this because they have reason to do so. This exception would mean they can't ban people from online services for having a modified console, it means people, even large stores, can start selling "pre-modded/hacked" consoles for playing "abandoned" games. This even includes previous gen systems (360, wii, ps3) as they DO have some abandoned multiplayer games

Now if the EFF just wanted the exception for museums or just wanted to make the game modding itself legal but the console hacking not I could see the ESA being cool with it. As it stands now however they have legitimate reasons to oppose this.

edit: also the issue in question isn't over OLD games it's over ABANDONED games that need online functionality or have a large online component. They are trying to get an exception to modify those games so that they connect to third party servers. The downsides of the user submitted news section my friends, take everything with a grain of salt.


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## VinsCool (Apr 14, 2015)

What a bunch of fucktards.

I legally own my stuff, modifiying them isn't going to hurt anyone.


If this applies to US, I wouldn't be surprized if this applies to Canada.


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## migles (Apr 14, 2015)

Techie8 said:


> Honestly I don't give a fuck about what the ESA says. My shit is my shit. I paid money for it, and therefore I can do what I want with it. How are they going to track me anyways?


 
one day your dog gets lost and you decide to call the police
or: one day your "in-law" comes rampaging at your house and you have to call the police

so the police comes, they look around and see you have flashcarts on the table. instead helping you, you get arrested.

or you did something wrong, and because the cop is on a bad mood they add "flashcart possesion and drugs" into the list..

enough of trying to be funny story. what i mean is.
there is a difference in being allowed and doing it...
the truth is, no one will care about that shit, that you own backups of your games or not, arrest someone because owning illegal copies of movies\music etc is really really rare.. (unless you sell them)
because every single person that owns a computer does it, or at some point did it indirectly.. (your niece tried to download a game on your computer..)

but if you do something bad to someone or are targeted.. this kind of stuff can contribute to your penalty..


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## dragonmaster (Apr 14, 2015)

There is no patch for stupidity ,good luck passing that in europe....


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## Deleted User (Apr 14, 2015)

migles said:


> one day your dog gets lost and you decide to call the police
> or: one day your "in-law" comes rampaging at your house and you have to call the police
> 
> so the police comes, they look around and see you have flashcarts on the table. instead helping you, you get arrested.
> ...


 

Well yeah, I know it's rare.
That doesn't mean that they're not going to do some crazy shit to sites like this. We might not ever be able to get flashcarts in the US again.


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## jonthedit (Apr 14, 2015)

Techie8 said:


> Well yeah, I know it's rare.
> That doesn't mean that they're not going to do some crazy shit to sites like this. We might not ever be able to get flashcarts in the US again.


 
Nah.
Overstatement.
This means nothing.
Laws never stopped pirates.


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## Taleweaver (Apr 14, 2015)

America, land of the free! 

...when it comes to writing retarded laws.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

ESA - Fucking people who back up their ROMs and ISO images they legally purchased six ways from Sunday.


Fucktards. I hope they go under 

BTW, there's no way this can be easily enforced, so just another day.


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## jmanup85 (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm guessing this is bad for mods like Project M in Smash Bros Brawl right?


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

jmanup85 said:


> I'm guessing this is bad for mods like Project M in Smash Bros Brawl right?


 

It's not gonna change a bloody thing, people might be blowing this outta proportion. Screw the ESA.


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## jmanup85 (Apr 14, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> It's not gonna change a bloody thing, people might be blowing this outta proportion. Screw the ESA.


 
But it has the potential to screw it, or am I wrong. All I'm asking is if it has the potential to cause issues


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

jmanup85 said:


> But it has the potential to screw it, or am I wrong. All I'm asking is if it has the potential to cause issues


 

Maybe, but it's not going to stop anyone anyways. These laws are useless and unenforceable.


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## Vipera (Apr 14, 2015)

> The Entertainment Software Association *wants to* prevent the preservation of old games because it believes the process of restoring them is illegal 'hacking'.


So no, not going to happen.


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## TeamScriptKiddies (Apr 14, 2015)

I will be sending this to my State Rep who's both a Libertarian and a Pirate not to mention a friend of mine.

I know state officials don't have much say in this, but if we can get the National LP and PP involved we can fight this. Both groups were involved in getting SOPA/PIPA/COICA shot down.

I'm sorry, but if an online game loses official support, users are supposed to just forget about all the money they spent on said game? Doesn't seem fair to me at all. Setting up unofficial servers for abandoned games should be a protected action. Nobody should have the ability to take that away.


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## Osha (Apr 14, 2015)

MURRICA
Okay, more seriously, it's not gonna affect anyone, it would've been known if anti piracy laws were completely enforced, at least a third of the world's population would be in prison.


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

TeamScriptKiddies said:


> I will be sending this to my State Rep who's both a Libertarian and a Pirate not to mention a friend of mine.
> 
> I know state officials don't have much say in this, but if we can get the National LP and PP involved we can fight this. Both groups were involved in getting SOPA/PIPA/COICA shot down.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if an online game loses official support, users are supposed to just forget about all the money they spent on said game? Doesn't seem fair to me at all. Setting up unofficial servers for abandoned games should be a protected action. Nobody should have the ability to take that away.


I'm calling my rep to and my local parties to act against it


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## weiff (Apr 14, 2015)

So my last post was not exactly pertinent... but I did come up with something else when talking to a co-worker.

If this passes, that would mean action replay and any legal purchased cheat system would be now illegal to sell and own.




EDIT: Crap... only took nine years but I hit 200 posts. Time to go silent mode again.


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## WiiCube_2013 (Apr 14, 2015)

ESA just went full retard and you never go full retard.


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## RevPokemon (Apr 14, 2015)

WiiCube_2013 said:


> ESA just went full retard and you never go full retard.


They have been full retard since it was founded


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## porshionXmato (Apr 14, 2015)

Are they stupid or what? *sigh* Humans can be so stupid...


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## Retr0Capez (Apr 14, 2015)

The ESA does not understand that when you _buy _something, you _own _it. ROMS are a different thing, but uploading the software from that old game (EarthBound for example) and creating a hack, or changing the code, is not really hacking. If this was the case, the military should be charged with this because they have modified Windows XP, or then all Linux Distros because they are just modifications of UNIX. And even every company that makes Android devices should be shut down because they are modifing the original Android software. This won't ever happen guys, its just the ESA bitching again.


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## tbb043 (Apr 14, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> Oh and the ESA, yeah, they have too much power, and they can't enforce this on everyone, that, and people will just host more ROM/ISO sites outside US jurisdiction   ESA can burn for all I care



ESA doesn't have any power beyond yakking at politicians. They're a lobbying group, basically. They can't actually enforce their nonsense, just bribe the people who can.


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## osaka35 (Apr 14, 2015)

VinsCool said:


> I legally own my stuff, modifiying them isn't going to hurt anyone.


 
True, but there are many with loads of money that are trying to change that concept to more of a leasing of their content. The purchase of the hardware is just the medium for the lease. It's gross.


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## Heran Bago (Apr 14, 2015)

The ESA doesn't have the authority to decide that. They are not a legislative or judicial body.


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## TecXero (Apr 14, 2015)

That seems ignorant. I'm not big on piracy, I stick to dumping my own cartridges/discs, but some games truly do become all but lost to time. Things like Earthbound probably would have never gotten the traction it did without piracy in countries outside of Japan. It's not like it was that malicious, it was people that were curious about an old game that wasn't sold anymore and was very rare.

Yeah, Nintendo is providing a legal means to get a lot of older console games legally without having to buy old systems or look for an old copy. It's seriously overpriced, in my opinion, though. Also, Nintendo's eShop service is very restrictive, even more so than other console digital distribution services. If something happens to that console and you can't verify that it was damaged, you have to rebuy your games. If their service goes down in the future or just no longer supports that console, if anything happens to it, those games are gone. You can't even transfer them from a dying but working console to another without their service.

In the end, I don't care if archiving and distributing old games like that is illegal, it's the only reliable way to have old games without having to track down old licensed copies and probably paying far more than you should. The old developers have long since been paid for those games, and I doubt many of them would even see a penny of VC re-releases.

Now as for new games, I don't think they should be pirated, that simple. Once they're out of production, then I can understand.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 14, 2015)

tbb043 said:


> ESA doesn't have any power beyond yakking at politicians. They're a lobbying group, basically. They can't actually enforce their nonsense, just bribe the people who can.


 

Well, like the majority of lobbying groups, they often take the wrong and often convoluted approach, and this is no exception. Pinheads. Bleh. This is not the way to address an issue, at all. I'm writing my rep.


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## ferofax (Apr 15, 2015)

Some people just want to watch the world burn. The guys who came up with this conclusion are one of them. They would rather see the old games lost into oblivion than "hacked" and "pirated" by retro game archivers and preservers.


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## Deboog (Apr 15, 2015)

Oh no. Some lawyers said something that helps their clients. Whatever shall we do.


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## Vipera (Apr 15, 2015)

Deboog said:


> Oh no. Some lawyers said something that helps their clients. Whatever shall we do.


But it's more fun to feed the trolls!

I wonder what would happen if people questioned every single thing someone says. Hell, I wonder what GBATemp said when one of the EU politicians wanted to ban porn in Europe not long ago.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 15, 2015)

ferofax said:


> Some people just want to watch the world burn. The guys who came up with this conclusion are one of them. They would rather see the old games lost into oblivion than "hacked" and "pirated" by retro game archivers and preservers.


 

Never stopped anyone before, not gonna stop anyone now. Only thing I've seen them "do" is having certain ROMs removed from a few sites lol.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 15, 2015)

Foxi4 said:


> ESA's a bunch of shills of the industry, just like the MPAA is in terms of movies. They don't want you to keep software safe, they want you to re-purchase it over and over.


 
Ah yes, because there's totally a market to re-buy my entire collection of SNES games in the same condition they were in for a decent price. Thanks ESA 

But yeah, this is a bunch of bullhockey. I'm just hoping people can still play ROMhacks on YouTube. GBAtemp will be able to stick around because the servers aren't based in the US (as far as I know)


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## the_randomizer (Apr 15, 2015)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ah yes, because there's totally a market to re-buy my entire collection of SNES games in the same condition they were in for a decent price. Thanks ESA
> 
> But yeah, this is a bunch of bullhockey. I'm just hoping people can still play ROMhacks on YouTube. GBAtemp will be able to stick around because the servers aren't based in the US (as far as I know)


 

Let's Play videos aren't going anywhere, or at least, there's nothing they can do as they can't stop every single one of them. Lobbyist jackasses


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## Vipera (Apr 15, 2015)

Why is this thread still open?


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## the_randomizer (Apr 15, 2015)

Vipera said:


> Why is this thread still open?


 

Who knows, all I know is that this really won't change things in the long run. And besides, I thought the process of making back ups of ROMs in the US was illegal anyways; not the backup file itself, but the fact ROM backup devices circumvented copyright protection measures.


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