# What's your general opinion of Christianity?



## Deleted User (Oct 4, 2018)

Before anyone flames me with examples of the Old Testsment, keep in mind that it was made when God was playing favourites with the Jews. It took place in a completely different culture that is now invalidated by the New Testament as mentioned In John, Romans, and others. From Jesus and onwards, Christians were supposed to follow the two commandments: Love your God with all your heart soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Idk about you, but that sounds like a good philosophy no matter where you look from.

So, now. Opinions?


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## DarkFlare69 (Oct 4, 2018)

There is no God, so therefore it's not a good philosophy


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## Deleted User (Oct 4, 2018)

DarkFlare69 said:


> There is no God, so therefore it's not a good philosophy



Note the YOUR in there. Everyone has a god. Not necessarily the Christian one, but it's still there.


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## Tigran (Oct 4, 2018)

90 percent of Christians and thus Christianity on a whole is a crock pile of shit.

They go on and on about their faith "As a christian!" or "That's not christian like." when Jesus basically said "Shut the fuck up."

Matthew 6:5- "5: And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 6: But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7: And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard."

In other words.. Shut up about your relationship between your god. that's between him and you and no one else.


Also they constantly go on and on about how god is quote/unquote "All loving." yet the supposed Omnipotent all loving god can't keep people from getting gunned down in his own churches. Oh.. But that's his "Plan." but of course Abortions are never part of his "Plan." despite the fact he never says a damn thing about them in the bible, if anything he's pro-abortion considering he ordered people to rip the wombs from women.

Also if he's omnipotent and all loving why the hell does he have to "Test" us all the damn time?

And what did Satan ever do that was so wrong?


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## Mark McDonut (Oct 4, 2018)

People should be more like Jesus and stop trying to be the King.


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## Deleted User (Oct 4, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Matthew 6:5- "5: And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. 6: But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7: And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard."
> 
> In other words.. Shut up about you're relationship between you're god. that's between him and you and no one else.


Lol, too true. The modern version of Christianity has really become a pile of dog crap, not arguing that for a second.


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## Hanafuda (Oct 4, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> Lol, too true. The modern version of Christianity has really become a pile of dog crap, not arguing that for a second.



Can't disagree with that. Most people who call themselves Christians today have no concept of how it even became a widespread religion. Ask them what happened at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge and they just stare back, or maybe assume you're on Satan's team.


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## Tigran (Oct 4, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Can't disagree with that. Most people who call themselves Christians today have no concept of how it even became a widespread religion. Ask them what happened at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge and they just stare back, or maybe assume you're on Satan's team.



Hell.. If I believed in the bible at all, I'd be on team Satan.. He didn't do anything at all.


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## Deleted User (Oct 4, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Hell.. If I believed in the bible at all, I'd be on team Satan.. He didn't do anything at all.



Supposedly, Satan attempted to usurp God. Idk. The bible really isn't clear on some of the earlier mythos. Oftentimes they leave the biggest hanging threads and it is the worst from a storytelling perspective.


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## Tigran (Oct 4, 2018)

You know.. at least other religions/mythologies gave explanations on how their gods came to be and such.


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## Arecaidian Fox (Oct 4, 2018)

Gandhi disputably has said something along the lines of, "I love your Christ, but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike Christ." While people can argue on whether or not he actually said that, it pretty much sums up my feelings. If you're a Christian and preach your religion, and actually follow those teachings of love and tolerance, I think that's just fine. It's when you start beating people overhead with the Bible that I get mad.


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## granville (Oct 4, 2018)

Eh, even in the New Testament Jesus instilled in his disciples that the old Jewish law is still acknowledged as the supreme word of God and must continue to be upheld forever. Which is probably why the Old Testament is still a part of pretty much all Christian bibles and is still read and taught.

_"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." _- Matthew 5:17-20

_"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."_ Matthew 10:34-39

A lot of the love and peace talk seems to only really apply to Jewish people, people who practice that faith and follow the old laws. People who do not subscribe strictly to their religion and all of the rules do not seem to qualify for such kind treatment. In fact these passages seem to condone violence against those who don't, or at least a trip straight to hell.


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## Deleted User (Oct 4, 2018)

granville said:


> Eh, even in the New Testament Jesus instilled in his disciples that the old Jewish law is still acknowledged as the supreme word of God and must continue to be upheld forever. Which is probably why the Old Testament is still a part of pretty much all Christian bibles and is still read and taught.
> 
> _"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." _- Matthew 5:17-20
> 
> _"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."_ Matthew 10:34-39



I sincerely disagree, and I feel like you're misinterpreting these statements. I always assumed that Matt 5:17-20 was referring to the 10 commandments. And in regards to Matt 10:34-39, it's clearly metaphorical. He wants you to take up your cross and follow. Even if you make enemies of your family and friends while doing so.



granville said:


> A lot of the love and peace talk seems to only really apply to Jewish people, people who practice that faith and follow the old laws. People who do not subscribe strictly to their religion and all of the rules do not seem to qualify for such kind treatment. In fact these passages seem to condone violence against those who don't, or at least a trip straight to hell.



Again, I disagree. All throughout the New Testament, Jesus and others make it very clear you should love everyone, even your enemies. That you should give your stuff to the needy, etc.

I suppose this loops back to the big issue of Christianity. Interpretation. The bible makes it clear that if a person thinks something is a sin, then it becomes a sin. The bible really is more of an ethics guidebook, more then anything else. Your supposed to build your morality system off of it by carefully examining all the passages, praying, etc.


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## CallmeBerto (Oct 4, 2018)

Ech same with all religions, while there is some good life philosophy in there, there is also a lot of trash.


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## nando (Oct 4, 2018)

trash like the rest of religions


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## invaderyoyo (Oct 4, 2018)

New Testament's even worse. Before, you just died, now you have to worry about eternal suffering.


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## Taleweaver (Oct 4, 2018)

I put them roughly on par with Muslims and Jews: the majority of them just want to get by in the world and do good, but there are some jackasses in each group.

Same goes for agnostics and atheists (that's my group), but the lack of stupid rituals means they have more time to play video games.


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## kingfrost (Oct 4, 2018)

I think they're people like you and me. Like most people, they can be good or bad. They can be peaceful or militant.

The only times I have trouble with the religion as a whole is when people insist it should be applied to my decisions. Other than, I don't care who you worship.


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## Clydefrosch (Oct 4, 2018)

show me the christian that comes even close to living by the word of jesus.


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## linuxares (Oct 4, 2018)

Well, let me say this. It's my personal belief and I find all religion to be based upon evil. It's always someone that wish to control the masses. This was easier to do in the past since the lower education, people always try to find something to rely on so Religion seem to hold all the answers.

In short, fuck religion.


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## DinohScene (Oct 4, 2018)

I'm not religious and I never will be.
I respect other peoples decision to follow a religion, it's their choice after all.
I just don't want them to bother me with it.


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## DarthDub (Oct 4, 2018)

It would be a great concept if people didn't constantly make sects (branch off etc) of it. If you want absolute truth, you don't change words to benefit yourself. Humanity will always be flawed, just like how I'm flawed making this poorly written post here.


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## Esdeath (Oct 4, 2018)

I am a christian myself and had never a Problem with other Christians since I never met someone which had the "Religion before anything else" mentality (I am christian because I havent left the church *yet*).
Even though I believe that the church itself and most of its visitors are a bunch of Hypocrites, for me the church has nothing to do with the faith.


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## JellyPerson (Oct 4, 2018)

If God loves all of his subjects and is omnipotent and merciful and all that, shouldn't he have not, like, banished Satan to hell? Or even forgive all the people who sin, even by accident? If God is omnipotent, why does he let young children die? Why do people die at all? If God is such a great, well, god, why are there so many evil people in the world? There are so many unanswered perfectly reasonable questions in the Quran/Bible/Torah. I talked to my parents about this, and they just said "That's just how it works, dude." I wish the Holy Books could answer my questions instead of bringing up more unanswered questions.


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## DarthDub (Oct 4, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> If God loves all of his subjects and is omnipotent and merciful and all that, shouldn't he have not, like, banished Satan to hell? Or even forgive all the people who sin, even by accident? If God is omnipotent, why does he let young children die? Why do people die at all? If God is such a great, well, god, why are there so many evil people in the world? There are so many unanswered perfectly reasonable questions in the Quran/Bible/Torah. I talked to my parents about this, and they just said "That's just how it works, dude." I wish the Holy Books could answer my questions instead of bringing up more unanswered questions.


We were given freewill, to think for ourselves.


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## JellyPerson (Oct 4, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> We were given freewill, to think for ourselves.


Yeah, that's a decent answer to explain murder. However, why do young children die of illness? It isn't like it's anyone's choice they die of something like Tuberculosis.


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## DinohScene (Oct 4, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> Yeah, that's a decent answer to explain murder. However, why do young children die of illness? It isn't like it's anyone's choice they die of something like Tuberculosis.



Young children die of illness cause they're ill.
Not because "god" wants it, no, a bacteria, virus or w/e wants it.
God doesn't do shit about it neither, medical personnel does ;')


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## m00k00 (Oct 4, 2018)

IMHO Religions are only for the weak and fearful. Once you accept that your Body is basically a machine that's slowly degrading as time passes by you will understand that death is nothing to fear. This moment of illumination will open your eyes and make you see that you should do the best with your life NOW ... and not hope and wait for an enternal existance where you are able to correct all of your faults and misbehaviours. Of course it takes a certain amount of intelligence to understand this. However once you've understood this there's no reason to hope for your afterlife ... this is why I say: Do the right thing now and always ... if you hope that you are able to correct everything you've made wrong in your life after you died I can only advise you to stop wasting your time with Religions and Philosophies and start to improve your life today, because right now you've got the opportunity in your hands ... why would you want to waste it?

To sum it up: Religions were created by smart people trying to rip you off, because many people fear death and these people learned to make a dime from this circumstance. Be smarter than them and don't listen to their words ... eventually you will be enlightend one day.


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## JellyPerson (Oct 4, 2018)

DinohScene said:


> Young children die of illness cause they're ill.
> Not because "god" wants it, no, a bacteria, virus or w/e wants it.
> God doesn't do shit about it neither, medical personnel does ;')


I never said "god" wants it. If God was Omnipotent and Merciful he would save the child from dying.


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## DinohScene (Oct 4, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> I never said "god" wants it. If God was Omnipotent and Merciful he would save the child from dying.



That's exactly me point haha.
If there was a god that's all mighty then we wouldn't have wars.
Nor would we have illnesses or poverty stricken people.

Religion is basically just a way of life.
I chose mine to not practice any religion.


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## brickmii82 (Oct 4, 2018)

Christ was an exceptional man with an exceptional way of thinking. Most of the churches that are based around him are not very "Christ-like." 

*Matthew 23*
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 
The greatest among you will be your servant.
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Basically he called out the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders. Now it'd be the Christian ones. A hurricane happens and you have to be asked to open your doors? A family is devastated by an abusive alcoholic and you won't help because they're not a church member?
You swing a sword of hatred before a hand of love? You surround yourselves with aristocrats and fortuitous when he surrounded himself with lepers and prostitutes? 

You do not know this man, this Christ you claim to cherish ...


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## lolboy (Oct 4, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> Before anyone flames me with examples of the Old Testsment, keep in mind that it was made when God was playing favourites with the Jews. It took place in a completely different culture that is now invalidated by the New Testament



So, whom decides that the old testament should not be followed anymore? I don't get the testament thing in christianity?


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## The Catboy (Oct 4, 2018)

I respect Christians so long as they respect me, this is how I treat everyone. I judge others based on their actions, not on ideas/believes. My best friend in the whole world who I love to pieces is a Christian and she respects me despite the fact that I am Lucferian Satanist.


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## lolboy (Oct 4, 2018)

Arecaidian Fox said:


> Gandhi disputably has said...


Why are some people obsessed with this old skinny indian guy?



JellyPerson said:


> If God loves all of his subjects and is omnipotent and merciful and all that, shouldn't he have not, like, banished Satan to hell? Or even forgive all the people who sin, even by accident? If God is omnipotent, why does he let young children die? Why do people die at all? If God is such a great, well, god, why are there so many evil people in the world? There are so many unanswered perfectly reasonable questions in the Quran/Bible/Torah..



I could answer your question from religion point of view. I have traveled alot talking to many people trying to understand religion.


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## DeadlyFoez (Oct 4, 2018)

I am agnostic. I have not seen any proof that god does or does not exist, and no one else has seen proof either way except for those with mental health problems or those that are already dead.

With the hundreds of religions out there, for anyone to say that their religion is right while all the others are wrong is just bullshit. Sadly, the christian faith and it's followers have been able to come up with a generic rebuttal about nearly anything that someone can say to try to discredit their faith. And no one can seem to agree on what the bible means, whether it is to be taken literally or metaphorically, if those are events that really happened (I doubt it) or stories just told by others.

"Why would god have allowed little suzy to die?", "Because god knew that that her passing would bring more people to follow him"
"Tammy's house burned down and she died. The only thing to not burn was the bible on her bedside", "And god did that she show how strong and powerful he is. Isn't god great"

I noticed that a majority of christians that I have encountered are the biggest hypocrites.  So many of them preach about how your body is god temple, but then they go home, smoke, drink, swear and anything else that they desire to do. They choose their own sin that they find is acceptable and alright. But when confronted, they go on with that bullshit of "I am only human, and it is human nature to sin. Thank satan for that".

Religion is just another business, except it doesn't get taxed like it should. Pastors and priests generally don't need to work any other job to support their family. All of their income comes from the people of the church. And if they have a big congregation then they tend to have a lot of money to spend on things like airplanes boats and multiple homes. One who serves god should not be getting rich off of it. Instead, they should still have a job and use their position in the church just as any other volunteer in a soup kitchen or helping sick children. Helping your brothers get salvation should be something that a good christian just attempts to do and helps out how they can without needing to get a paycheck for it.

This is a topic I could go on for days about. Unfortunately, many people get very emotional over religion and it tends to start a lot of fights.


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## linuxares (Oct 4, 2018)

Do I believe in a god? Well... sort of? Or should I say, I question a lot of stuff. For example the Big Bang. What the heck was before it? How can nothing be something. It's the only reason why I'm sort of standing on the ground that this universe is either "man made" or "deity". Or there is a much larger force than we can't comprehend...


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## DeadlyFoez (Oct 4, 2018)

linuxares said:


> Do I believe in a god? Well... sort of? Or should I say, I question a lot of stuff. For example the Big Bang. What the heck was before it? How can nothing be something. It's the only reason why I'm sort of standing on the ground that this universe is either "man made" or "deity". Or there is a much larger force than we can't comprehend...


I strongly believe in the string theory. With that, there is part of it that says that so much mass collected in a super massive black hole on another plane of the universe that the weight of it touched our plane of the universe and dumped all that matter here.

Now, what still started all of that? Science still hasn't figured it out. Science is about asking question, coming to a logically conclusion, and then conducting experiments to observe what happens.

What came before god? "God has always been and always will be". So that is possible for a god but not matter and reality?

All religion has ever done is just made stories to explain the things that people don't understand until science proves something about their belief wrong. How many scientists, astronomers, and general researchers have made claims about things that the church deemed to be lies and then banished that person only to find out later on that the person was right? Quite a lot.


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## linuxares (Oct 4, 2018)

I totally agree with you. That's the second question, if god exist. Who or what created God?


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## HamBone41801 (Oct 4, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I respect Christians so long as they respect me, this is how I treat everyone. I judge others based on their actions, not on ideas/believes. My best friend in the whole world who I love to pieces is a Christian and she respects me despite the fact that I am Lucferian Satanist.


I tried explaining what that is to an old guy in my old church once. It didn’t go well.

As for me, I’m an ex-Baptist, currently Lutheran. I think the church as a whole has done a lot of good for a lot of people in more recent years, but they’ve had just as negative of an impact for a long time now, and honestly, the only thing that’s changed is whether or not they’re allowed to hang/burn/jail their perceived “opposition”.


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## BlastedGuy9905 (Oct 4, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> Before anyone flames me with examples of the Old Testsment, keep in mind that it was made when God was playing favourites with the Jews. It took place in a completely different culture that is now invalidated by the New Testament as mentioned In John, Romans, and others. From Jesus and onwards, Christians were supposed to follow the two commandments: Love your God with all your heart soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
> 
> Idk about you, but that sounds like a good philosophy no matter where you look from.
> 
> So, now. Opinions?


I am technically Christian but I honestly couldn't give a shit about religion. If you don't kill, steal or hurt anyone else, you're a decent person.


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## Taleweaver (Oct 4, 2018)

Clydefrosch said:


> show me the christian that comes even close to living by the word of jesus.


I once multiplied bread and fish...


...all I got for it was a ban from WoW servers.


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## osaka35 (Oct 4, 2018)

Every holy book encapsulates some of the morality, philosophies, mythos, and propaganda of their time and general location. If it's one that sticks around for whatever reason, such as christianity, the evolution of morality tends to be retroactively applied to older text. Also, they just add or edit passages directly, decades or centuries later, to update the morality, philosophies, mythos, and/or propaganda, and passing it off as original. It is the way of things. Zero confidence in any religion based on ancient text. Any good in a text does not justify or prove the fantastical or the immoral.

I also can't believe in anything supernatural. It is by definition, beyond the natural. If it cannot be explained by our current understanding of the natural world, the supernatural is not the default answer. The default answer is "we do not yet understand the mechanism of how this happens. Give us time."

You can believe whatever you'd like. Doesn't make you right, but you're perfectly allowed to believe in anything you'd like.


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## matthi321 (Oct 4, 2018)

im too old to have imaginary friends


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## FAST6191 (Oct 4, 2018)

I will note three things
1) Christianity is a near meaningless term. There are so many incompatible interpretations of it that the word itself is mostly one used by politicians to appeal to old people. It does have a broadly accepted understanding at least in the English language though so I will go that, and spare us the Mormon, Islam and other peeps with their own extra books question for the time being.
2) Speaking of old people it is mostly their hobby these days. The kids mostly ignore it, probably why church attendance is so very low in the UK. To that end I would consider as well as the rest the group of people that do it.
3) Separate to this is the codified system of beliefs, typically written as a book (some are still oral traditions).

For 3) I have read every major religion's book, and no small number of minor ones. Fascinating things to read for historical reasons, for the history of philosophy and to give some understanding to the various groups that 2) above might encompass, I highly encourage anybody to read such things critically as well. Their merit as a general explanation of life, the universe and everything... fuck that noise. I am also so very glad that I am living in a point in history where a righteous (hah) response to "I find your remarks about my religion to be offensive" is "good".

With that said live and let live, though if you are going to challenge me to a philosophical debate then I am game. Also don't be surprised if your kids encounter me and find my approach to the world a better one.



m00k00 said:


> Once you accept that your Body is basically a machine that's slowly degrading as time passes by you will understand that death is nothing to fear.


It might be that right now but with enough science I reckon I can see the heat death of the universe (or the great rip if that is to be a thing).


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## The Catboy (Oct 4, 2018)

HamBone41801 said:


> I tried explaining what that is to an old guy in my old church once. It didn’t go well.
> 
> As for me, I’m an ex-Baptist, currently Lutheran. I think the church as a whole has done a lot of good for a lot of people in more recent years, but they’ve had just as negative of an impact for a long time now, and honestly, the only thing that’s changed is whether or not they’re allowed to hang/burn/jail their perceived “opposition”.


I am actually a huge fan of the idea of churches or even just meeting areas in general, humans are social creatures that need other like-minded people around them. Despite what people want to believe a lot of churches have done a lot of good both big and small. For example, a lot of churches in my area offer free shots and fixing for pets and without preaching to anyone. They do this for the community because they actually want to help the community. There's also non-denominational Christian organizations who help out during natural disasters and other worldly issues, without preaching. Then there's the Satanic Temple fighting tooth and nail for religious freedom by challenging hypocrisy and also providing services like offering like free body guards to anyone who feels unsafe, still without preaching. Basically my point is, is that churches of all likes can and have done a lot of good. The greater issue of course is that focus is often on the bad. People talk about Christianity being anti-LGBT, while ignoring the growing number of LGBT friendly Christian demonstrations. People talk about the horrors of Islam, while ignoring just how small a fraction that really is. People demonize the Left Hand Path (Satanism, Luciferianism, etc.) while ignoring the fact that their fears aren't real and it's mostly a Humanist path. People are prone to their feels on the matters because of what they are exposed to. 
On the notion of previous paths, I was actually raised in a non-practicing Catholic household. My family believed that what they practiced was good for them, but not for all. They believed in the simple notion that everyone was just trying to sleep at night and there was no perfect method to that sleep. Thus they simply accepted that their own believes worked for them and they are happy that way. As well they never discouraged anyone from finding their own path, so long as they slept conformability at night. This is still the mindset that I hold despite having my own believes because I know mind don't work for everyone and I am ok with that. Personally I just want people to find what makes them happy, so long as they aren't a harm to others.


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## AtsuNii (Oct 4, 2018)

I believe in one thing and that is in myself, not a higher being.

I don't mind people having religons. As long as they don't start rubbing it in my face.
If they do, then I kinda do have a problem with them however. Im not gonna bother people with it, as long as they wont bother me


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## SG854 (Oct 4, 2018)




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## HamBone41801 (Oct 4, 2018)

SG854 said:


>



I was wondering when somebody would bring this up.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 4, 2018)

And here I thought this thread was made solely for the purpose of pissing on people who had different beliefs, silly me.


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## Attacker3 (Oct 4, 2018)

Nietzsche has been misunderstood by atheists, but there is one thing that is understood by all. God is dead. The Enlightenment era has destroyed the belief of God, and that we are the murders of him. "Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?". And we must. At this point we've fucked up so hard that in order to actually keep any type of morality created from divine order, we must become gods in ourselves to do so.

If you look at atheists like me, most of them fear death and are quite nihilistic in nature. But this is not all bad. Nietzsche had said that it could be a way for humans to advance beyond anything we could possibly imagine if we were confined by a Christian god. So we made our choice, and we'll experience centuries of nihilism in despair just for the chance for ourselves to become gods ourselves, in some way, some how. Perhaps the internet will be a way for us to become connected, all the time, and we'll all merge together to create a singular entity like in Evangelion or Serial Experiments Lain, or something like what Alex Jones explained to Joe Rogan with an AI created out of humans becoming a neural network. Who knows, maybe we'll become gods that way, or maybe we'll just find more and more ways to escape the idea that we are alone until something just happens.

Not a good tradeoff in my eyes, but some people might be able to ignore it long enough to only experience the nihilism and despair when close to death. I envy you. I hope God comes and fucking kills all of us and codemns the non-believers to hell like me, because at least in hell we'll know we weren't alone all those years.


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## SonowRaevius (Oct 4, 2018)

At least from my personal experience with religious folk, most of them are quite hypocritical, have never read their own holy texts, are extremely judgmental, and often cherry pick the fuck out of what rules are and aren't allowed. 

Christians, just as an example, will quote things about the old testament constantly, but the moment you quote something else from the old testament that disagrees with their way of life they go on a rant about how "Those are just old/antiquated/outdated rules that don't apply to a modern society". 

That being said, not everyone who believe in their religion are bad and try to use it as some kind of propaganda machine for hate, some actually take the good lessons and saying and try to promote piece, love, and community between everyone. Sadly, again this is my experience, those people are far and few between and it really doesn't help that the other crowd is so much louder.


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## wormdood (Oct 4, 2018)

Tigran said:


> And what did Satan ever do that was so wrong?


nothing . . . he gives a home to all the soles the "loving" god refuses to let into his kingdom


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## Deleted User (Oct 5, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> For 3) I have read every major religion's book, and no small number of minor ones. Fascinating things to read for historical reasons, for the history of philosophy and to give some understanding to the various groups that 2) above might encompass, I highly encourage anybody to read such things critically as well. Their merit as a general explanation of life, the universe and everything... fuck that noise. I am also so very glad that I am living in a point in history where a righteous (hah) response to "I find your remarks about my religion to be offensive" is "good".



Mate, I opposed that comment on the grounds that they were commenting on a religion which they clearly hadn't a good understanding of.



FAST6191 said:


> With that said live and let live, though if you are going to challenge me to a philosophical debate then I am game. Also don't be surprised if your kids encounter me and find my approach to the world a better one.


Sure. Not sure if it's off-topic or not, but I'm up.

To begin with, (if we're doing this now), I would like to understand your viewpoint a bit. I think we can both agree that the major problem with a belief of any type is when it's taken to the extreme. Not just Christianity, but even Athiesm. Assuming that, why exactly is your 'approach to the world' better?


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## Searinox (Oct 5, 2018)

Hello. I was raised as a Christian and became an atheist secular humanist. My opinion of Christianity is very poor indeed.


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## lafleche (Oct 5, 2018)

A lot of what I feel has already been said.
Want to add that what we call Christianity is something which has been made up during the first council of niceae in 325 in where parts of the Bible/gospels were deleted, the date of Easter was set and so on.
So all we know from the bible was done long after Jesus died and power hungry men decided what was good for us.
The quran is even newer....
so when people say: this book was made or dicatated by God/Allah or whoever are delusional. These books were made by men (with sometimes hidden agenda's)


Stephen Fry was once asked what he would say if he was confronted by God at the pearly gates of heaven, 
Fry replied: “I’d say, bone cancer in children? What’s that about?
“How dare you? How dare you create a world to which there is such misery that is not our fault. It’s not right, it’s utterly, utterly evil.
“Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain. That’s what I would say. 

Amen to that.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 6, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> To begin with, (if we're doing this now), I would like to understand your viewpoint a bit. I think we can both agree that the major problem with a belief of any type is when it's taken to the extreme. Not just Christianity, but even Athiesm. Assuming that, why exactly is your 'approach to the world' better?



Some I speak to seem to have a "I was raised and then I reached the age of reason" story. In my case, and in the words of a favourite song, I started out with nothing, still got most of it left.
Anyway I quite like this life business, as do most that experience it, and like it to be the best it can be for me. Praying and religious morality then seemed far less effective than trying to understand how the world works and the rather less contradictory and easier to understand morality of the modern world. Worse still was the controlling bent that many religions seem to go in for. To finish it off I learned something of psychology, economics and general argumentation and it seemed the religions that survived employed suspect methods or were artefacts of all three -- for economics a classic one is noted as those religions with many gods split their population and thus are primed to be overtaken with those with a singular god and a singular mission and singular set of overheads.

Extremism, and possibly fundamentalism as they tend to go hand in hand, is a major problem but I would not say it is the major problem. The low level moralistic undercurrent a lot of Christians and recovering Christians (same for many other religions, though the effects and approaches vary somewhat) exhibit and its effects on raising kids. This guy ( https://www.youtube.com/user/TheraminTrees/videos ) does lots of stuff I would +1 here -- raising kids to believe, the nature of gods if they are supposed to be all loving, all knowing and all powerful, the creation of less than sceptical mindsets (it is often noted that father christmas/santa claus is kind of god lite, I notice similar things for other aspects).
Similarly, and putting aside the semantic argument of "atheism is not a belief but the absence of them" for a minute despite it being very relevant here, I am not quite sure what extremist atheism is. Black metal church burning? USSR style imposed atheism? I have never seen anybody blow themselves up or take a pop at a medic screaming "IN THE NAME OF NOTHING!!!!".


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## radicalwookie (Oct 6, 2018)

I believe in my Black & White creature


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## antiNT (Oct 6, 2018)

Calling someone stupid because they believe in God is unnecessary, maybe you don't believe because you have no proof or whatever, but the religious people are not convinced that God doesn't exist, their right to believe is as legitimate as yours not believing.


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## mightymuffy (Oct 6, 2018)

antiNT said:


> Calling someone stupid because they believe in God is unnecessary, maybe you don't believe because you have no proof or whatever, but the religious people are not convinced that God doesn't exist, their right to believe is as legitimate as yours not believing.


Thread title: 'What's your general opinion of Christianity?'
People calling someone stupid because they believe in God: their general opinion.

I suspect you believe in God judging by your comment? Well, good luck to you on that one!  Christianity stems from a book of fairy tales/words of a government in power trying to keep the population in line - in this case, The Bible, for the Jews, but of course isn't solely the Bible: each religion is just the same.
But I would say it's nice, certainly for the older folk, to think their loved ones are up there floating on clouds playing on a harp 'looking down on them', so personally I wouldn't call any of them stupid ....it's a crock of fukkin shit of course, but not gonna call anyone stupid.
My general opinion of course, like was asked for.


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## antiNT (Oct 6, 2018)

mightymuffy said:


> Thread title: 'What's your general opinion of Christianity?'
> People calling someone stupid because they believe in God: their general opinion.
> 
> I suspect you believe in God judging by your comment? Well, good luck to you on that one!  Christianity stems from a book of fairy tales/words of a government in power trying to keep the population in line - in this case, The Bible, for the Jews, but of course isn't solely the Bible: each religion is just the same.
> ...


You have your beliefs and I have mine


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## brunocar (Oct 6, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> Before anyone flames me with examples of the Old Testsment, keep in mind that it was made when God was playing favourites with the Jews. It took place in a completely different culture that is now invalidated by the New Testament as mentioned In John, Romans, and others. From Jesus and onwards, Christians were supposed to follow the two commandments: Love your God with all your heart soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
> 
> Idk about you, but that sounds like a good philosophy no matter where you look from.
> 
> So, now. Opinions?


the new testament is just fan fiction and god is just a dick in the original.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 6, 2018)

antiNT said:


> Calling someone stupid because they believe in God is unnecessary, maybe you don't believe because you have no proof or whatever, but the religious people are not convinced that God doesn't exist, their right to believe is as legitimate as yours not believing.





antiNT said:


> You have your beliefs and I have mine



You have the right to believe whatever you like. You absolutely do not have the right to not have those beliefs challenged or laughed at.


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## Lemmingz (Oct 6, 2018)

I don't believe in a god of any kind, like a few other users have posted in this thread I suppose it is everyones own choice for what they believe in.

If god did exist why would he/she/they/it allow bad things to happen in the world, people young & old die each day, natural disasters, people starving & freeshop stopping working  

I've always liked to think churches would be like this  I'm sure they would get loads of people in


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## Depravo (Oct 6, 2018)

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

- Mahatma Gandhi


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## FAST6191 (Oct 6, 2018)

Depravo said:


> "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
> 
> - Mahatma Gandhi


True that. I must have met thousands and not one has turned water into booze.


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## Viri (Oct 7, 2018)

The one true faith! Deus Vult!


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## Subtle Demise (Oct 7, 2018)

This may be a long one, apologies in advance.

Throughout my childhood, I've always had a sort of on again off again relationship with God and Christianity. On the days I got taken to church as an elementary school kid, I would do these littke acts of defiance because I didn't believe in God, even at that young age (funnily enough, still believed in Santa lol). Around 5th grade is when I started to believe in it. There would be things that would shake my faith. Such as when I guess you'd call her a step-grandma said she had a vision from God that I was doing something bad at my mom's house. I knew this was bullshit because that thing never happened. I wondered if God actually talked to people, or if they all were just making it up. Science class also made me question things, but the church youth group assured us that it was just Satan's lies. We even had a night where we went through the biology textbook and made fun of it, as if life on Earth taking millions of years to form was somehow less believable than the entire universe being willed into existence in a week.

Anyway, went through middle school trying be a good Christian boy, but high school changed everything. The few friends I made were atheists who dabbled in Wicca and listened to Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails. I tried to tell them the good news of Jesus Christ, but slowly I started to see things their way. I started to see the flaws in intelligent design. Things like birth defects and genetic diseases wouldn't logically be possible if humans were carefully crafted by an intelligent being. Other idiosyncrasies like passing urine through sexual organs left me with more questions than my religion had answers.

I had a hard time trying to figure out just what exactly I believed in, but world history class in my senior year made it very clear to me. I learned that there were religions long before Christianity, and that it is a relatively young religion. Also, many of the early beliefs, rituals and traditions were borrowed from Paganism. If the Bible and Christianity is the divine word of the one true God who created the universe and this earth, why wasn't it one of the first? Why did it have to adopt things from other religions? That's what turned me fully atheist.

After that, I'd still get dragged to church because I never told my dad. It was fun to read ahead from the verse the pastor gave. I found some pretty nasty stuff in there. Atheists often get accused of taking the Bible out of context, but honestly it works both ways. Preachers often pick out a single verse and build a lesson around it, often taking it out of the context of violence and sex. There's things in there that would put 80s anime to shame. People say that mankind can't have morality without God, but religion in general is on the decline and each generation is more sensitive to others than in the past. We value human life way more now than we did in ancient days. It used to be common to go to the colisseum and watch slaves kill each other and then get mauled by starving animals. The authors of the Bible actually seemed to have little regard for human life. God passing down laws about stoning disobedient children and smashing babies against rocks. I guess my point here is that man doesn't need a god for morality and the Christian God is the last being I'd take morality advice from. That brings me to the next point: the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible. What's with God's sudden personality change between the old and new testament? Why are there over 20 different creation stories? I like the way Penn Jillette puts it: "Take some time and put the Bible on your summer reading list. Try and stick with it cover to cover. Not because it teaches history; we've shown you it doesn't. Read it because you'll see for yourself what the Bible is all about. It sure isn't great literature. If it were published as fiction, no reviewer would give it a passing grade. There are some vivid scenes and some quotable phrases, but there's no plot, no structure, there's a tremendous amount of filler, and the characters are painfully one-dimensional. Whatever you do, don't read the Bible for a moral code: it advocates prejudice, cruelty, superstition, and murder. Read it because: we need more atheists — and nothin' will get you there faster than readin' the damn Bible."

Now I know I've been ragging on Christianity a lot in this post, but even I acknowledge that they do a lot of good in their communities. The Witch Trials, Crusades, The Prohibition, Westboro's "God Hates Fags" protestors, and the million-dollar faith healers and money scamming mega churches are the exception rather than the rule. Most churches and their followers do good things, like serve at soup kitchens, open food pantries, run those Christian thrift stores where you can buy clothes for pennies, among many other things. Even the homophobia is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

All in all, it's not for me, and I tend to leave the followers alone unless they are doing something that affects me or my loved ones, such as wanting the USA to be a theocracy.


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## bennyman123abc (Oct 7, 2018)

Arecaidian Fox said:


> Gandhi disputably has said something along the lines of, "I love your Christ, but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike Christ." While people can argue on whether or not he actually said that, it pretty much sums up my feelings. If you're a Christian and preach your religion, and actually follow those teachings of love and tolerance, I think that's just fine. It's when you start beating people overhead with the Bible that I get mad.


This couldn't have been said any better


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## Deleted User (Oct 7, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> Similarly, and putting aside the semantic argument of "atheism is not a belief but the absence of them" for a minute despite it being very relevant here, I am not quite sure what extremist atheism is. Black metal church burning? USSR style imposed atheism? I have never seen anybody blow themselves up or take a pop at a medic screaming "IN THE NAME OF NOTHING!!!!".



Ehhh. A fair amount of the worst Extremist religious types were most likely agnostic to atheist, and were simply using religion as a justification. It could be argued that it was nihilism of some type, but I doubt it.



FAST6191 said:


> Some I speak to seem to have a "I was raised and then I reached the age of reason" story. In my case, and in the words of a favourite song, I started out with nothing, still got most of it left.
> Anyway I quite like this life business, as do most that experience it, and like it to be the best it can be for me. Praying and religious morality then seemed far less effective than trying to understand how the world works and the rather less contradictory and easier to understand morality of the modern world. Worse still was the controlling bent that many religions seem to go in for. To finish it off I learned something of psychology, economics and general argumentation and it seemed the religions that survived employed suspect methods or were artefacts of all three -- for economics a classic one is noted as those religions with many gods split their population and thus are primed to be overtaken with those with a singular god and a singular mission and singular set of overheads.
> 
> Extremism, and possibly fundamentalism as they tend to go hand in hand, is a major problem but I would not say it is the major problem. The low level moralistic undercurrent a lot of Christians and recovering Christians (same for many other religions, though the effects and approaches vary somewhat) exhibit and its effects on raising kids. This guy ( https://www.youtube.com/user/TheraminTrees/videos ) does lots of stuff I would +1 here -- raising kids to believe, the nature of gods if they are supposed to be all loving, all knowing and all powerful, the creation of less than sceptical mindsets (it is often noted that father christmas/santa claus is kind of god lite, I notice similar things for other aspects).



I suppose it depends more on your personal viewpoint more then anything else. I think you and I both know that there are people who would lose their heads if their belief of their God was shattered. And there are far more whose lives have become significantly better as a result of moderate religious practice and faith.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 7, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> I suppose it depends more on your personal viewpoint more then anything else. I think you and I both know that there are people who would lose their heads if their belief of their God was shattered. And there are far more whose lives have become significantly better as a result of moderate religious practice and faith.


And the knowledge that there are such people as the former in this world is terrifying to me, and why I will needle and test anybody with a growing sense of faith.

As for improving lives then sure, however I would immediately wonder how much of that is some sense of belonging and community. Humans are social creatures and loneliness and a meaningful things to do is a chronic problem in the modern world. To that end I have similarly seen any number of people join clubs and learn skills -- the amount of times me and mine have taught people something like woodwork, metalwork, programming or dragged them on job sites and got them to do... its efficacy compared to religion there would be rather more.


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## Deleted User (Oct 7, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> As for improving lives then sure, however I would immediately wonder how much of that is some sense of belonging and community. Humans are social creatures and loneliness and a meaningful things to do is a chronic problem in the modern world. To that end I have similarly seen any number of people join clubs and learn skills -- the amount of times me and mine have taught people something like woodwork, metalwork, programming or dragged them on job sites and got them to do... its efficacy compared to religion there would be rather more.



There is a moral aspect as well, though. While I know that you don't need religion to have a moral system, there is an aspect that encourages moral behaviour. It's rarely an atheist I see running the local soup kitchen or engaging in a charity event.


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## ROMANREIGNS599 (Oct 7, 2018)

Fake religion. Islam is the true one, but many people confuse Islam as being the religion of terrorists, they are not real Muslims and are hypocrites. In real Islam, there is no such thing as killing to attain peace. Terrorists' main goal is to wipe the real Islam


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## Deleted User (Oct 7, 2018)

Personally I honestly don't really care too much about religion.
If someone is christian that is fine.
If someone tries forcing it on me then it isn't. Unless of course it's for something emotional and personal.
(I've gone through hell in my childhood. So when I was leaving my town. My best friends Mom, which in a way I was a second child to that family. Took my hand on prayed on it without my consent and without warning. Which is ok. As it had no ill will behind it. And it was clear that I wasn't christian)
In other words, if it's a complete stranger forcing things on me, it's not ok.
But if it's a friend, or someone I'm close to. I'm fine with that, depending on the situation.
Personally I don't believe in a good incarnate, or a evil incarnate. I don't believe there is heaven or hell, but I do believe there is some type of purgatory, but it's nothing like what we think it is.
And this is the part were I shutup and say nothing else.


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## ROMANREIGNS599 (Oct 7, 2018)

monkeyman4412 said:


> Personally. A lot like how a lot of religions I know about.
> I honestly don't really care too much.
> If someone is christian that is fine.
> If someone tries forcing it on me then it isn't. Unless of course it's for something emotional and personal.
> ...


Bro, just advising that you should read about all the religions and understand that real Islam, not the fake one terrorists follow, is the true religion. You have to make a lot of sacrifices but in the end, only you will be benefited by the reward of Paradise. I don't know how much more I can tell you


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 7, 2018)

first thing you need to know about the idea is that every law means to effect on everyone, not just the ones you like... there for is almost any relegion (though everyone makes some religgion in thier mind, some truth that keeps popping up eover evidence) is bound to fail eventually:

if every christian would relive in paradise, then there's a poppulation of trillions of peopple by now, given it counts from the time of Jezus death.
this also means that in the afterlife not only your mother in law and grand mother in law think they've got something to say about how you treat your wife, your husband or your child, but even your great grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand comes to tell you what you should've done better.
why if god is so good in everithing, that he knows how to be perfect, and made us all, that he can see the future, then why didn't he prevent the snake, then why must there be a test, a test he already knew we'd fail.

why do we need to explain our actions to each other and to god, while he's not?
since when is it okay when 2 children get killed by a bear (old testamony)? really just because they made fun of a so called profet?

why is killing okay when chieftain mozes or any profet tells to even if the clear law says it's not?
if you have a pet you know that if you love it you don't mind him being gay, kill something or distroy something... why would a all loving god that loves us far more than we could think of bitch about how we treat our friends, wifes/husbands, mothers... and why would he care if you be gay?
God be so perfect? okay i repair electronic boards, i get fired if i fail tostay under the 3% waranty rate. tell me what percentage of human created by god's own hand had a warranty issue?
did you know about 5% of the general population is gay, that might not sound much to you, but that means to follow the bible on its word taht abount 5% of the creation is mallfunctioning, that's 2% more than your supervisor will ever accept you to fail in manufacturing.

did you know that in the enigma code, the nazi encryption for telegrams was only cracked by a gay person, that he got driven into suicide by christian laws?
did you mean almost any relegion either means winning in money for those who tell the tale, or winning in sexual favors and in some cases to get peaple to kill for the tellers tells them.
did you know that King Salmon a son of King David, who'd beeing so extremely rich is never been talked about in the countries around israel? really there's almost no proof outside the bible that the'res even been a King David.
there's little to no proof, except that there's proof of some carracters to have lived, that the bible or any religion has something in it to say well i could see this as a true story.
i surrely hope that i never see a judge that is religious, since he's blind to seek for proof in his religion, then he might be blind to proof in court i tell you.
what good ever came from reliogion other then the people who meet helping eachother in time of need?
why believe in a god that doesn't care for you now, that he's got something great for you in death?
while we indeed make our own religions by creating new tales, like when you got cheated a few times in life, you might think that all girls or all boys are the same in this, such is a religious thinking, you see something happening over and over in your past so it must be true... could also being self forfilling profecies... if you treat your girl or boy with checking all actions for you think he might cheat on you, then it's bound that at some point he or she says to himself or herself why not giving him or her what he or she wants to?

see:


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## Cubuss (Oct 7, 2018)

yall need jesus,


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 7, 2018)

Cubuss said:


> yall need jesus,


never needed him, never gonna need him.
and now i think about it, how many straight guys do you know with only 12 men friends till he's 35? oops, shit, there i gave away why he really got crusified.


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## kingfrost (Oct 7, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> You have the right to believe whatever you like. You absolutely do not have the right to not have those beliefs challenged or laughed at.



Remind me who wants safe spaces again? Seems like a large portion of the religious, and I mean all religions, want our whole country to be a giant safe space.

I feel like I live in bizaro world sometimes.


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## jahrs (Oct 7, 2018)

As both a life long born and raised christian with an actual brain and the ability to think for myself i can tell you with some actual authority seeing as my parents and grandparents and eventually even i will run the family church. Most incarnations of christianity are 10% based on the bible usually in some way that benefits the creator of the variant. The rest is just BS they add in for control of their sheep.

After all jesus never preached religion or bondage but rather freedom and acceptance along side being a general good person. He also taught that people should think for themselves using parables as ways to hide answers and allow people to use their own intellect to solve their problems.

This sorta question is really big flame bait for people who just cant deal with those of different mindsets. Regardless my belief that i will eventual use in the family church. is that all religions have inheritantly something right and as such instead of forcing my thoughts on them ill say my case of basically "come here ask questions and ill tell you what i know and then go and see/search for yourself if this works for you if not have a nice day ill be here."

Honestly id open a thread for question on christianity and stuff but itd more or less get torched by gods not real and trolling.


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## lafleche (Oct 7, 2018)

ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> Fake religion. Islam is the true one, but many people confuse Islam as being the religion of terrorists, they are not real Muslims and are hypocrites. In real Islam, there is no such thing as killing to attain peace. Terrorists' main goal is to wipe the real Islam



Don't be stupid... Choran is 'dictated' to the prophet... Who probably was drunk or high on some narcotics. It is a book written and modified by people to suit their own Interests.... Learn to think for yourself


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## Subtle Demise (Oct 7, 2018)

ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> Fake religion. Islam is the true one, but many people confuse Islam as being the religion of terrorists, they are not real Muslims and are hypocrites. In real Islam, there is no such thing as killing to attain peace. Terrorists' main goal is to wipe the real Islam


Every religion ever states it's the true one. I could say that Cthulhu is the one true God, but that doesn't make it true.


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## Deleted User (Oct 7, 2018)

ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> Bro, just advising that you should read about all the religions and understand that real Islam, not the fake one terrorists follow, is the true religion.


And now I'm partially annoyed, and equally confused. Your statement has two interpretations. I understand which version (of Islam) your speaking of. However "is the true religion" part of your statement is left to way too much interpretation and isn't clear.
Interpretation 1: Islam is superior to every religion. Which if that's what your saying, it isn't. People can believe in what ever they wish. (however, that doesn't excuse them from criticism or actions.)
interpretation 2: The real Islam is better than the terrorist version and is the real version.
Which if that's what you mean. Then ok, why are you telling me that?
I hope you understand that I already kind of figured that the terrorist version differs from the "real" version. I say "real" in quotation marks because the fact is, with a lot of regions, certain clauses get ignored by the public or change over time. Making it difficult to say which is the "real" religion. (Going to state this again. It doesn't mean you should use religion as a excuse to do a terrible crime. Everything is open to criticism.)


ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> . You have to make a lot of sacrifices but in the end, only you will be benefited by the reward of Paradise. I don't know how much more I can tell you


This part annoys me to every degree possible.
Not only did you respond to a post that said
"I don't care about someones religious beliefs as long as they don't force it on me"
But you also completely ignored my own beliefs.
I'm not angry, but rather disappointed, and very annoyed, that you decided to preach to a post that isn't interested.


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## Deleted User (Oct 8, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> Every religion ever states it's the true one. I could say that Cthulhu is the one true God, but that doesn't make it true.



How dare you! Our almighty creator Cthulu shall burn you for your insolence! Is his beauty not self evident in the world he's created? All hail Cthulu! Join the church of Cthulu Now, or BURN!!!

Here at the church of Cthulu, we strive to make the world a more Cthulu friendly place. Look at (INSERT TRADEGY HERE) . I guarantee you, if everyone believed in Cthulu, everything would be better! We even have heaven packages starting at 5.99! Call now to get your free consultation!


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## lafleche (Oct 8, 2018)

ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> Fake religion. Islam is the true one, but many people confuse Islam as being the religion of terrorists, they are not real Muslims and are hypocrites. In real Islam, there is no such thing as killing to attain peace. Terrorists' main goal is to wipe the real Islam



About 'true' or 'real' Islam : Is that the Sunni one? The Shia one? Suffi? Alawites? Druze? and there are dozens more.... even judaism share the same roots as the islam.. all of them are so called 'Abrahamic religions and that is something most muslims don't even accept as they hate Israel and the Jews.

So even when you talk about real islam you are not even very clear on what you mean .... and in the real world the different factions hate each others guts... islam is peace? Don't make me laugh.... religion is war and islam is no exception!


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 8, 2018)

Spoiler



/s

"I couldn't help it."
"Hey, sarkwalvein, can't you take anything seriously?"
"It seems I can't"


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## Subtle Demise (Oct 8, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Funnily enough, I was going to mention that song when I was talking about my transformation from Christianity.


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## Navonod (Oct 8, 2018)

I may jokingly call people heathens for not believing in a god but I don't believe such a being exists. The only way one could exist is as an idea or as most people like to say imaginary friend.

Edit. As a religion it could be a great thing if people weren't so mean and judgmental. But as everyone is well aware that's not the case.


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## mattytrog (Oct 8, 2018)

As a Christian, I rather like it.


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## eleventh (Oct 8, 2018)

Like most people I am poly-Atheist.
There are many gods I don't believe in: Don't believe in Zeus, Thor (even though he had a great movie), Dagda, Nyame, Vishnu, the Abahamitic God, etc.
Only difference between me and other people is of the 100 000 gods, I don't believe in 100 000 of them. Other people don't believe in 99 999 of them. So only 0.00001% difference in thought.


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## smf (Oct 8, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> Note the YOUR in there. Everyone has a god. Not necessarily the Christian one, but it's still there.



I don't. If god created the universe, then how can there be more than one god?

But the ten commandments are pretty good things to live by if you want a nice quiet existence.

IMO back when christianity and islam was invented, there wasn't a well structured legal & consumer rights system. So it made sense to throw it in with religion, because people were scared of god.

In the western world people are scared of going to prison, so we don't really need god as a concept for controlling people. The islamic countries still have a poor legal, human rights, consumer rights system etc & so they will hold onto it for a while longer.

I may of course be wrong about god not existing. It's impossible to say based on the available facts (i.e. there are no facts and people are very unreliable).


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## spectral (Oct 8, 2018)

eleventh said:


> Like most people I am poly-Atheist.
> There are many gods I don't believe in: Don't believe in Zeus, Thor (even though he had a great movie), Dagda, Nyame, Vishnu, the Abahamitic God, etc.
> Only difference between me and other people is of the 100 000 gods, I don't believe in 100 000 of them. Other people don't believe in 99 999 of them. So only 0.00001% difference in thought.



Thor is real! He was in that documentary about Ragnarok.


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 8, 2018)

spectral said:


> Thor is real! He was in that documentary about Ragnarok.


Yeah, man. The same as Loki, my favorite god. Too bad he is dead now, but sure he will be resurrected soon... I mean, it wouldn't be the first or the last time that happens.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 8, 2018)

ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> Fake religion. Islam is the true one, but many people confuse Islam as being the religion of terrorists, they are not real Muslims and are hypocrites. In real Islam, there is no such thing as killing to attain peace. Terrorists' main goal is to wipe the real Islam


The terrorists would claim that u are a hypocrite for not wanting to fight for God. They could quote the Quran - as you would be able to do. How are we to judge who is correct?
Their verses are most likely going to be later than yours, they argue that newer ones abrogate older ones if there seems to be a contradiction. This method is confirmed by most main stream scholars in Islam.

Again: How can we Non-muslims tell who is right?
Did you know there are Muslims who refuse to say the Shahada because Muhammad appears right with God's name which could be interpreted  as the greatest sin (shirk; associating partners to God). Are they Muslims? They would claim you aren't. 

On Topic: Christianity is disproven by the fact that Christ didn't return.
Judaism and Islam (and Christianity) are disproven by the fact that God needs people to fight for him despite being all-powerful.
Further arguments: 
-it is obvious the holy books are of human origin (and yes, it is also true for Islam)
-the problem of evil (they contradict his attributes)
-the hidenness of God (only revealing himself to certain people is favoritism; he sends people to hell who do not believe, even though he is to blame for the lack of evidence; thereby rewarding the gullible and punishing the critical)
-the vile nature of God (punishing people ETERNALLY is ridiculous and makes him more evil than Satan)


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## Deleted User (Oct 8, 2018)

smf said:


> I don't. If god created the universe, then how can there be more than one god?
> 
> But the ten commandments are pretty good things to live by if you want a nice quiet existence.
> 
> ...



I think you misunderstand me. By God, I was including things along the lines of 'career, family, etc.'


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## Youkai (Oct 8, 2018)

The idea of beeing nice to each other is good but I don't need a god for this plus most christian people use their being a christian to give a reason hating other people ... same with more or less every religion


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## Jayro (Oct 8, 2018)

Religion as a whole is just shit. I only need to believe in *myself *to achieve anything great out of life.


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## ov3rkill (Oct 8, 2018)

I'm fine with whatever people believe in. They're free to so as long as they're not shoving their beliefs in other people's throats or go apeshit and wage war about it.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 8, 2018)

smf said:


> But the ten commandments are pretty good things to live by if you want a nice quiet existence.


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## CaptainSodaPop (Oct 8, 2018)

I agree that would be a logical way to think for everyone, but Christianity has the most power over people. Even people who are not believers (Atheists) go by Bibles philosophy first and compare situations and expectations according to the Bible. I've never heard a non-believer mention Quran or something else when they start debating God.


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## smf (Oct 8, 2018)

CaptainSodaPop said:


> Even people who are not believers (Atheists) go by Bibles philosophy first and compare situations and expectations according to the Bible.



Only atheists whose only frame of reference is Christianity. If you grew up in a pastafarian community, then you would use the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster.

It's unlikely if you grew up with the quran and became atheist that you'd debate it very much. That doesn't go down well.


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## CaptainSodaPop (Oct 8, 2018)

smf said:


> Only atheists whose only frame of reference is Christianity. If you grew up in a pastafarian community, then you would use the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster.
> 
> It's unlikely if you grew up with the quran and became atheist that you'd debate it very much. That doesn't go down well.



Good point. Still I rarely saw Muslims that don't practice their original religion, at least the basic values. So I came to conclusion that most of atheists are just fallen Christians or have never been brought up in religious environment in the first place.


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## ROMANREIGNS599 (Oct 9, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The terrorists would claim that u are a hypocrite for not wanting to fight for God. They could quote the Quran - as you would be able to do. How are we to judge who is correct?
> Their verses are most likely going to be later than yours, they argue that newer ones abrogate older ones if there seems to be a contradiction. This method is confirmed by most main stream scholars in Islam.
> 
> Again: How can we Non-muslims tell who is right?
> ...


Red the translation, terrorists are dumbasses


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## smf (Oct 9, 2018)

CaptainSodaPop said:


> Still I rarely saw Muslims that don't practice their original religion, at least the basic values.



There are many reasons why this could be. Modesty, fear for their lives or you don't hang out with enough of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


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## chaoskagami (Oct 12, 2018)

ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> Red the translation, terrorists are dumbasses



More like the higher ups are manipulating the religious texts to turn people to extremism via something akin to brainwashing. As per usual, religion is a great political tool. This hasn't changed in the past 2000 years.



smf said:


> Only atheists whose only frame of reference is Christianity. If you grew up in a pastafarian community, then you would use the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster.
> 
> It's unlikely if you grew up with the quran and became atheist that you'd debate it very much. That doesn't go down well.



What atheists? See, I'm an atheist but I've done research on all the different religions because from a historical and philosophical perspective, they're interesting. What's even more interesting is _how damn similar all of them are, down to sharing some stories almost detail for detail_. Honestly, if I didn't know better, I'd say many religions share some common ancestor proto-religion. I'm excluding certain things here, since as an example Buddhism isn't remotely similar to any Christianity/Catholicism derivative.



TerribleTy27 said:


> How dare you! Our almighty creator Cthulu shall burn you for your insolence! Is his beauty not self evident in the world he's created? All hail Cthulu! Join the church of Cthulu Now, or BURN!!!
> 
> Here at the church of Cthulu, we strive to make the world a more Cthulu friendly place. Look at (INSERT TRADEGY HERE) . I guarantee you, if everyone believed in Cthulu, everything would be better! We even have heaven packages starting at 5.99! Call now to get your free consultation!



Ia! Ia! Ia!


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## smf (Oct 12, 2018)

chaoskagami said:


> What atheists? See, I'm an atheist but I've done research on all the different religions because from a historical and philosophical perspective, they're interesting. What's even more interesting is _how damn similar all of them are, down to sharing some stories almost detail for detail_. Honestly, if I didn't know better, I'd say many religions share some common ancestor proto-religion. I'm excluding certain things here, since as an example Buddhism isn't remotely similar to any Christianity/Catholicism derivative.



His point was that Christianity was special, because it's the one that all athiests discuss. I pointed out that was because he only knew athiests that were bought up in a Christian society.

Judaism, Christianity & Islam are all the same god and centred around the same part of the world & so they are going to have a lot of simularities. It's a bit like when they've rebooted the Spiderman movies a couple of times, somethings change & others stay the same. Islam specifically took on some of the Jewish customs, to attract more Jews.


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## chaoskagami (Oct 12, 2018)

smf said:


> His point was that Christianity was special, because it's the one that all athiests discuss. I pointed out that was because he only knew athiests that were bought up in a Christian society.
> 
> Judaism, Christianity & Islam are all the same god and centred around the same part of the world & so they are going to have a lot of simularities. It's a bit like when they've rebooted the Spiderman movies a couple of times, somethings change & others stay the same. Islam specifically took on some of the Jewish customs, to attract more Jews.



To be clear, I was agreeing with you.


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## Exannor (Oct 12, 2018)

You merely adopted Christianity. I was born in it, molded by it.



jk, after my mother passed, I quit going to church

I don't care for it all that much now, but back then, when I was basically forced to go, I was annoyed by it.


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## Ev1l0rd (Oct 12, 2018)

> Alucard: Honestly, if you're going to have a dick-fighting competition with a woman, you must have started off with the world's cruelest handicap. Which I'm sure benefits the nine-year-old boy you have chained up in your private Vatican jet. Which was paid for how? Oh, right! Generous donations from your followers to spread the Word of God. _All over his back._



References to good anime abridged series aside, Christianity is a religion like any other. If you follow it, good on you. I won't personally deride you for it. That said, if you are of the type that can't handle the criticism leveled against your religion, don't really expect me to _not_ deride you for it.

The moment you proclaim something as all-holy and try to put it as an argument because it's all-holy, therefore it must be right, you'll quickly find me on opposing side, at which point I _will_ deride you for such an argument/fallacy. (Fallacy being "Gods will is written in the bible, therefore it must be like this." Counter-argument: "What says your god exists?" Counter-counter-argument: "The bible does." This is circular reasoning and therefore a fallacy.)

That said, when it comes to Christianity specifically, I have rather big critiques over how some of it's followers seem to take incredibly primitive stances which I just find unacceptable in this day and age (homophobia being a large one of them), as well as various degrees of negative thoughts about drama involving the way they try to push it.

On a slightly larger scale/vaguely related to Christianity, I'm not particularly a fan of how somehow America gets to call itself a secular state when things like swearing yourself in on Gods name is a thing. Even if other options exist, it intertwines and blurries the clear separation religion and state must have. (Something which in the case of reinstating voting rights for ex-inmates, at least in one state, where the board has the final say no matter what, there is a consistent question of "do you go to church". Such a question should hold no bearing on someone's readaptation in society.)

Other things I'm critical of is the situation/controversy surrounding pedophile priests and the way that the catholic church has a pretty big focus on making sure that their priests live expensive lives instead of properly using said money in ways to maintain their following.

I'll give them one good thing though: The name for their God is pretty cool. I'm not talking about "Him" or the other ways they refer to their God. I'm talking about the name, which out of respect I won't post here.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 12, 2018)

DarkFlare69 said:


> There is no God, so therefore it's not a good philosophy



And your proof there is no GOD?


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## FAST6191 (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> And your proof there is no GOD?


Generally speaking the one making the extraordinary claim is the one that gets to back it.

Said claim that a magical being of infinite power, wisdom and compassion allows this horrible universe to exist and displays no compassion nor power, spoke to an eventual zombie* of a different religion 2000 years ago in the middle east and not a jot since despite it being trivial for them, dictated a book which through several translations still has a whole bunch of stuff which is seemingly demonstrably false and of dubious merit under human logic (which works fantastically otherwise) is the righteous and correct way to interpret existence then being a rather extraordinary claim. Oh and it is only this one despite there being technically infinite but practically maybe 100 thousand other well thought out choices or historical jumping off points.

*a zombie which a significant fraction of his eventual followers have as a core tenet of their beliefs that they have a little nibble on each week. Maybe they are all nuts or grossly mistaken but if it can happen to one then we have to vet the lot and there is an awful lot of historical baggage all over the shop there.




Ev1l0rd said:


> I'll give them one good thing though: The name for their God is pretty cool. I'm not talking about "Him" or the other ways they refer to their God. I'm talking about the name, which out of respect I won't post here.



י ה ו ה, which is notably a somewhat forgotten sequence of letters/work as far as pronunciation goes, which converts to Roman character set as YHWH and owing to a bit of historical fudgery (linguistics was not a terribly well developed practice and still undergoes radical shifts to this day) some then further convert to yahweh or Jehovah. What is disrespectful about discussing that?


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## Ev1l0rd (Oct 13, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> What is disrespectful about discussing that?


I'm pretty sure at some point in history, saying their gods name became forbidden. Things like Jehovah are ways around it.

But yes, that's the name I was referring to.


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## Tigran (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> And your proof there is no GOD?



Cancer in 3 year olds.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Cancer in 3 year olds.





FAST6191 said:


> Generally speaking the one making the extraordinary claim is the one that gets to back it.
> 
> Said claim that a magical being of infinite power, wisdom and compassion allows this horrible universe to exist and displays no compassion nor power, spoke to an eventual zombie* of a different religion 2000 years ago in the middle east and not a jot since despite it being trivial for them, dictated a book which through several translations still has a whole bunch of stuff which is seemingly demonstrably false and of dubious merit under human logic (which works fantastically otherwise) is the righteous and correct way to interpret existence then being a rather extraordinary claim. Oh and it is only this one despite there being technically infinite but practically maybe 100 thousand other well thought out choices or historical jumping off points.
> 
> ...




Your confusing GOD with Man made religion.


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## Harumyne (Oct 13, 2018)

As a concept, do bad and be forgiven, that alone is extremely dangerous.


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## dpad_5678 (Oct 13, 2018)

I don't mind religious people that aren't hateful at all, although most major religions promote violence to one degree or another.

Christianity tells you to beat your kid unless you hate their guts which is a fucking crazy.

In my opinion, all religions are similar to Scientology, just of varying degrees and they're all bullshit.


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## xskibbles (Oct 13, 2018)

Elemi said:


> As a concept, do bad and be forgiven, that alone is extremely dangerous.


It’s bad if not really understood which ,sadly,for many so called Christians they don’t . It’s supposed to mean if you did bad(sinned ,whatever) and you truly aknowledge you fucked up ,and you repent , and don’t go back to your old ways(basically become a better person I guess), and actually ask for forgiveness then forgiven . It doesn’t mean you won’t face punishment here on earth, and it surely isn’t meant to be something where you just go back to doing it al over again because “I’ll just say sorry again” . It also shouldn’t mean plan to do bad and then just ask either . Sadly, most have just gone by the last 2 things  I mentioned .


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Your confusing GOD with Man made religion.


sorry for my bad english, i know how it's supposed to be spoken, not always do i know how it's written.
god is man made.first god i know of is the god of the lava (forgot it's name), since no one in that time god an conclusive answer for there coming lava and earthquakes out of the earth they belived it was a god inside the mountain that claimed people for thier sinning, if sinners were to be thrown in the mountain they thought it might not happen again.
until around the year 300 after christ, here in europe we had about 7 gods of this sort.
since the greeks really investegated the claims these religions were easy to disproof, but saying there's one almighty god is hard to disproof. can't tell you in proof 100% fact there isn't one, i can however tell the unlikelyness of there being one by numbers and math.
at least there being a god is either not caring at all for you and us in general, or he/she's not alive anymore, or he never excisted in the first place.
the only proof ever found of mozes claims we're hes words of a talking bush (wich could also mean he cooked the first LSD, just one bad trip man).
god in the old testamony is contradicting his own claims over and over, like about love thy neighbor, don't kill, leave revenge to god... god really asked someone to sacrifice his only child? then waited about 2400 years and claimed his own only child? you really think that would make a father say every sin is paid for? you must be on prescriped meds or something.
in percentage there's no difference in history about what worldwide religion got killed more, suffered more except for those small religions about one country or city practiced, these belivers were just crushed and killed.
there's almost no proof of half the prophets ever being alive on this planet except for the story teller telling you so.
well there'hans an greetel, they got just as much reason to be real as there's a god. and i for one don't beleve any book for being real until there's more proof.
proof to me beyond doubt king salomon lived as a rich king and meant something to the countries around his?
god yahweh i'm for that i am, or better said i am real for i said so, or better said i am real because mozes said so is no proof.
if a club of people start telling tales to childeren over and over again and again, chances are this kid will not question it being a real story.
the only after life there is is the one that you could be in the haerts of other people when you die, just it's much easier to accomplish if you dont follow the 10 commands (hitler for one is just as much alive now as he was when he really lived).
after life on it self sounds nice when thinking of your grand mother, or father that you miss so much, but think of that mailman that always breathed so awkward he's probably just as much there in the afterlife as you are, your mother in law that always complained about how you treat your children, or your wife/husband. your neighbor. and you know how many christians died in the last 2018 years... think about that number of people being in one house, and they all like the paintings there (it's paradise to them all) they all like the stile of rocks being used (it's paradise to them all), they all like the same plants and positions of those in the garden (it's paradise to them all).
there's no way we all have the excact same idea about what paradise would be when it comes to detailles, but god seems te have? really? you're that ignorant?
for christians it's said we will all praise our lord infinitively, for it's great deeds... then let's practise:

Thank you Lord for At least 8 climbers dead after snowstorm in Nepal.
Thank you Lord for Michael's death toll rises to 17, including 8 in Florida.
Thank you Lord for Brain-eating amoeba confirmed in New Jersey man's death.
Thank you Lord for India hit with its biggest outbreak of Zika to date, with 32 confirmed cases.
just a short list of thing this God of us is doing, or you think those are mand made?
i also have a more personal praise for him or her:

Thank you Lord for giving the joy of life to a child that i now know will never live to see his 16th birthday because he's got a desease that has been there even before he was born, and even if it was known from the start, no docter would ever being able to cure him because his body is allergic to his body.
really great you all see him as a great allmighty one, give me beyond any doubt proof he's real and caring and alive... not a fairy tale you made up, even a fairy tale you think really happined is not proof.
please stop looking away of problems around you by just praying, do something!

okay there's a new world made by the catholic churges in some way for a part of thier followers, the world of broken dreams by getting raped over and over again.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> sorry for my bad english, i know how it's supposed to be spoken, not always do i know how it's written.
> god is man made.first god i know of is the god of the lava (forgot it's name), since no one in that time god an conclusive answer for there coming lava and earthquakes out of the earth they belived it was a god inside the mountain that claimed people for thier sinning, if sinners were to be thrown in the mountain they thought it might not happen again.
> until around the year 300 after christ, here in europe we had about 7 gods of this sort.
> since the greeks really investegated the claims these religions were easy to disproof, but saying there's one almighty god is hard to disproof. can't tell you in proof 100% fact there isn't one, i can however tell the unlikelyness of there being one by numbers and math.
> ...



How many times do I have to say "Your confusing GOD with Man made religion".


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> How many times do I have to say "Your confusing GOD with Man made religion".


GOD is man made religion, any god is made by man, even yours.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> GOD is man made religion, any god is made by man, even yours.



Proof?
Your opinion is not proof.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 13, 2018)

I have no problem with Christianity. I think that it teaches good morals and values but what some people have done in the name of Christianity in years past is terrible.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

PanTheFaun said:


> I have no problem with Christianity. I think that it teaches good morals and values but what some people have done in the name of Christianity in years past is terrible.



Religion has its good side as well as bad side. For some it gives hope. Just because the fox has learned to hide among the sheep doesn't mean all the sheep are bad, like some here would like you to believe.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Religion has its good side as well as bad side. For some it gives hope. Just because the fox has learned to hide among the sheep doesn't mean all the sheep are bad, like some here would like you to believe.


Of course. I used to teach about the bible to kids when I worked at my local church when I was a devout Christian.


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## Ev1l0rd (Oct 13, 2018)

On the subject of wider religion, I decided to for a moment entertain the idea of a "god" existing. Ramble incoming so uh, prepare for that I suppose.

Let's take a moment to assume that there is, indeed, as most religious people say a "higher being".

Let's also take the assumption that this being is responsible for the creation of existence in some form.

How in the world would such a creature be:

Interested in humanity. We're nothing but a single grain of sand in the grand scheme of the universe. Why in the world would such a creature even be _aware_ of our existence and more importantly: _why would they care_. Such a being would have to operate on a much larger scale than just the whims of a bunch of monkeys on a tiny planet.
Assuming such an all-powerful ominpotent creature would exist, and taking the general assumption of most religions that this creature would be beneficial to mankind, what would be the beneficial part of people starving in Africa, people waging wars in the name of their religion, and general human misery. If a higher being would beneficial to mankind. What would be the beneficial part of all that? We can take the reasonable conclusion that a creature capable of creating existence would have the power to end all human misery. Why doesn't it do that.
Taking that previous into account, there are only two conclusions here: The higher being is incapable of influencing the universe (in which case, why bother worshipping it) or is morally evil and as a result should not be worshipped.
As you can hopefully see, even if I take the assumptions (aka 2 times in assuming that a higher being might exist and that it's a creature worthy of the designation of god and 2 more in that it would be "beneficial" to mankind) and considering that, it would put any higher being firmly in the spot of "a massive dickwaffle".

Finally, I hope you understand how many _assumptions_ I would need to make to assume that any of this is true. I don't base the creation of the universe on _assumptions_. Science so far has managed to back up the origins of the universe to the event of the Big Bang which was started by the Big Foreplay, which is able to get backed up by facts and modern physics (the universe is gradually expanding from a central point, which is measurable, and other evidence that goes under "empirical" evidence).

On the other hand, the idea of a "higher being" being responsible for existence has no direct evidence other than "Holy book x says so", which I argued before is circular reasoning and as a result is a fallacious argument that isn't convincing me of such a creature being in existence.


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Proof?
> Your opinion is not proof.


okay when ever before Maria was there is Jesus name excactly been called as being our saver (i mean the same writing), when before Mohammed was ther ttalked about he'd being a profet of god?
when before Mozes was yahweh been called god? when before the thora was there any written proof of this being god?
people need a god to excist for reason to live, for not being scared, much like a child sometimes makes up an immaginair friend.
when a group of people is searching for answers on questions not yet solved by proof/research and someone comes up with a plausible story we mostly agree since we need answers now.
we as general people want answers cause we're lasy, we want answers and we want them now. the greek needed about 40000 years to find out what's causing lava to come out of a mountain, but poeple who lost a child to lava couldn't wait 40000 years for an explenation, so they made a god, to ease thier mind.
people often when with a trauma are thirsty for answers and in many cases sience doesn't have any that fills thier hart, so most of those will ask help in other finders, this could be god, or meditation or meds.
god is only a god when people start calling him or her god, by this it is men made religion.
funny to note is that monkeys do the same as humans, they also make gods when in trauma.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 13, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> okay when ever before Maria was there is Jesus name excactly been called as being our saver (i mean the same writing), when before Mohammed was ther ttalked about he'd being a profet of god?
> when before Mozes was yahweh been called god? when before the thora was there any written proof of this being god?
> people need a god to excist for reason to live, for not being scared, much like a child sometimes makes up an immaginair friend.
> when a group of people is searching for answers on questions not yet solved by proof/research and someone comes up with a plausible story we mostly agree since we need answers now.
> ...


I would take you more seriously if I understood what you wrote. No offense.


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 13, 2018)

PanTheFaun said:


> I would take you more seriously if I understood what you wrote. No offense.


explain, my english isn't the best there is, so tell me what you mean.
Because none of the profets had proof of thier being send by GOD, i can't take thier word as proof of it being of any god.
Because each GOD is only in our world, since we called, it's man made. this is just like we made dragons or unique horns since we wrote about such creatures.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 13, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> explain, my english isn't the best there is, so tell me what you mean.


I understand that. All I'm saying is that it's hard to understand what you are saying due to a lack of punctuation and grammar issues.


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## nolimits59 (Oct 13, 2018)

I don't like stuff that divides people for no reason, thats my vision of religion.
But I respect the fact that some people need to believe in something.


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 13, 2018)

PanTheFaun said:


> I understand that. All I'm saying is that it's hard to understand what you are saying due to a lack of punctuation and grammar issues.


i modded my last answer, maybe that helps you understand?


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> On the subject of wider religion, I decided to for a moment entertain the idea of a "god" existing. Ramble incoming so uh, prepare for that I suppose.
> 
> Let's take a moment to assume that there is, indeed, as most religious people say a "higher being".
> 
> ...



Your confusing GOD with religion. Religion is Man made. 
As for science what existed before the big bang? Why was there a big bang? Even science admits it doesn't know.


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## bandithedoge (Oct 13, 2018)

I don't care about religion, sexual orientation and annoying stuff like this. As an atheist I love debates where the other person respects my beliefs. I will respect you whatever you think, as long as you're not trying to shove your opinion down my throat.


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## Deleted member 397813 (Oct 13, 2018)

generally, I am a mix. I was baptised when I was born, apparently making me a "child of God."

Personally, I have strong thoughts that the bible is just full of stories. Even my Dad agrees that the stories are fake, but we (according to our faith) have to believe in it.


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## dAVID_ (Oct 13, 2018)

ROMANREIGNS599 said:


> Fake religion. Islam is the true one, but many people confuse Islam as being the religion of terrorists, they are not real Muslims and are hypocrites. In real Islam, there is no such thing as killing to attain peace. Terrorists' main goal is to wipe the real Islam


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## lafleche (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Proof?
> Your opinion is not proof.


Neither is your claim


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 13, 2018)

CPG said:


> generally, I am a mix. I was baptised when I was born, apparently making me a "child of God."
> 
> Personally, I have strong thoughts that the bible is just full of stories. Even my Dad agrees that the stories are fake, but we (according to our faith) have to believe in it.


If you don't believe in the teachings then you aren't apart of that faith. You only use the name.


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Your confusing GOD with religion. Religion is Man made.
> As for science what existed before the big bang? Why was there a big bang? Even science admits it doesn't know.


sience tells you excactly how/why.
there's a big bang for just like nuclear bomb, the gas we called nothing, was not nothing, just nothing in any form we could discribe.
this gas was unstable, so on multiple points in the universe it ignited itself, this type of bomb doesn't need a spark.
sience can now even create (sick)life out of death cells.
why do i say sick, since the cell will work like a virus when rivived.
any religion and any god in any form is man made.
what you tell me sound like you've made a new god/religion on your own.
saying this all, sound maybe like i hate all gods or so.
i don't just a warning for following a group of belevers blindly, cause there's a good chance that someone gains more then you want him or her to.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

lafleche said:


> Neither is your claim



and where is my claim?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



JaapDaniels said:


> sience tells you excactly how/why.
> there's a big bang for just like nuclear bomb, the gas we called nothing, was not nothing, just nothing in any form we could discribe.
> this gas was unstable, so on multiple points in the universe it ignited itself, this type of bomb doesn't need a spark.
> sience can now even create (sick)life out of death cells.
> ...



Science tells us it doesn't know what was in the first few milliseconds of the big bang because the current laws of physics did not apply. Therefore there is no scientific proof either way of what or why the big bang occurred. Could it have happen naturally. Possibly. Could there have been a creator. Possibly. There is no proof either way.


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## DarkFlare69 (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> And your proof there is no GOD?


And your proof there is a GOD? I'm not a fool to just blindly believe something because I was told it was true.


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## chrisrlink (Oct 13, 2018)

at least theres no cult worshiping Arceus irl could happen i mean Jedi is an actual religion/cult anyway it's bad enough that it's values are found in country laws (speaking for the US) Anti Abortion,Anti Gay/Lesbian (more on the marriage/Adoption area of it) even Polygamy is outlawed and that was outlawed natino wide around th birth of our country on the other end at least it's not a Muslim country as in aspect of laws (indonesa a majority muslim country) you can be put to death YES DEATH for masturbating They'd kill me over 1000 times by now


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 13, 2018)

DarkFlare69 said:


> And your proof there is a GOD? I'm not a fool to just blindly believe something because I was told it was true.


An all powerful being or beings may exist but we really don't know. The ancients believed in them and wrote about them before Christianity, Islam, or Judaism was even a thing.


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## Tigran (Oct 13, 2018)

If the "Good ones" don't want to call out the "Bad ones." they are willing accomplices.


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## eworm (Oct 13, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> On the subject of wider religion, I decided to for a moment entertain the idea of a "god" existing. Ramble incoming so uh, prepare for that I suppose.
> 
> Let's take a moment to assume that there is, indeed, as most religious people say a "higher being".
> 
> ...


Let's twist this argument around - if such a being existed and was the creator of the universe, why would ANYTHING in the universe exist? It's all so small and (according to your assumption) insignificant in comparison, after all. The assumption here is that big = important. This is a logical fallacy. An emotional argument in a sense - the world is so big and vast and mysterious and intimidating therefore it "must" be more important, more valuable than humanity. But apply the same faulty logic to anything else and you suddenly have basketball players who are "more valuable" than short people and adults that really shouldn't care about the small, frail, ignorant kids. Because they're "less".



Ev1l0rd said:


> Assuming such an all-powerful ominpotent creature would exist, and taking the general assumption of most religions that this creature would be beneficial to mankind, what would be the beneficial part of people starving in Africa, people waging wars in the name of their religion, and general human misery. If a higher being would beneficial to mankind. What would be the beneficial part of all that? We can take the reasonable conclusion that a creature capable of creating existence would have the power to end all human misery. Why doesn't it do that.


And here it is... How is this argument not dead after having been refuted repeatedly for centuries now, I swear.
Do you have the means to board a plane and fly some food to those starving African children? I assume you have or at least it wouldn't took too much effort to save a bit of cash for a ticket. Why don't you then? Are you a hypocrite? Are you using the tragedy of many people less fortunate than you to paint an emotionally charged picture to avoid actually refuting an argument?
Probably not, actually. Still, this is actually the crux of the argument.
This argument is an argument from laziness. "God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, why would we, humans, need to do anything, act properly, help each other, be responsible when He could just snap His fingers and make everything okay, reverse every f*ck-up of ours?" Well, why do parents allow their children to make mistakes and to meet with bad consequences of their actions? Why do they not control their every movement, every action, every relationship? What's that? Freedom? Good job, you've found your answer.
God is not gonna fix everything up with magic, because He doesn't WANT to take our free will away. That is what makes us capable of all the best things, even if at the cost of making us capable of all the worst things.
Besides we're already spoiled enough as it is. He's already delivered salvation for us, meaning even the worst possible result of our stupid actions here in the physical reality - death - is not a dealbreaker as far as eternal happiness goes. In the grand scheme of things, these starving people in Africa may be better off than the most privileged of us video-gaming Internet-using couch potatoes. Sure, we should try to make this world as close to Heaven as possible (aka try to return it to its original state, morality-wise), which includes (or rather almost entirely consists of) helping others, but it's wrong to consider all suffering evil, just like it's wrong to consider all pleasure sinful.

Side note, I'd like to ask you where you got that idea that people suffering and starving and killing each other and all that is "wrong" or "evil". I mean, if there is no Good - as in Goodness with a capital G, a supernatural "measuring stick" - then nothing can really be "more good" or "less good". We can only say a game is like Zelda because Zelda games exist. We can only say a city looks like New York, because there is a place called New York. If by saying "Zelda game" we all imagine our own arbitrary games, the conversation becomes nonsense. I'm not saying that atheists can't be morally outstanding people, wonderful people - but denying the supernatural moral standard renders it pointless. Might as well say that using words starting with a "p" is a virtuous thing to do or that eating bananas is a horribly evil thing to do.




Ev1l0rd said:


> As you can hopefully see, even if I take the assumptions (aka 2 times in assuming that a higher being might exist and that it's a creature worthy of the designation of god and 2 more in that it would be "beneficial" to mankind) and considering that, it would put any higher being firmly in the spot of "a massive dickwaffle".


But you're not actually making those assumptions, only saying you do. "Let's say there's a God", you say, "so why is the universe horrible, a statement I believe to be true because people die and that's the end of life, there's nothing after death, no Heaven possible". You ask "why, assuming that God is the creator of the universe, would He care about us, considering there is no god that we would have been made in the image of and therefore be immensely valuable?"



Ev1l0rd said:


> don't base the creation of the universe on _assumptions_. Science so far has managed to back up the origins of the universe to the event of the Big Bang which was started by the Big Foreplay, which is able to get backed up by facts and modern physics (the universe is gradually expanding from a central point, which is measurable, and other evidence that goes under "empirical" evidence).


Really? You think the Big Bang "explains" the origins of the universe? Tell me then, how could the Big Bang have happened, if things can't "happen" outside of time and time itself didn't exist before the Big Bang? How could all the mass that now is our universe have been concentrated in one tiny point, if there was no "space" in which a "point" could exist in?
The Big Bang is a scientific theory that holds some water, sure - but believing it explains the origin of the universe (space, time, life, free will, all that) is nothing short of a religious belief. It describes the origin of the universe, that's what science does. It tells us "how", but never "why". Even if we eventually reach a point in time when we'll know everything about how the universe works, we "complete" all science - we'll still be nowhere near finding out "why" all that stuff works, what the purpose behind it was and what's the point. These are questions outside the field of science and the modern belief that science can actually answer those is a very illogical one.


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## Nerdtendo (Oct 13, 2018)

It's my favorite. I love it. Goodbye


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## SG854 (Oct 13, 2018)

eworm said:


> Let's twist this argument around - if such a being existed and was the creator of the universe, why would ANYTHING in the universe exist? It's all so small and (according to your assumption) insignificant in comparison, after all. The assumption here is that big = important. This is a logical fallacy. An emotional argument in a sense - the world is so big and vast and mysterious and intimidating therefore it "must" be more important, more valuable than humanity. But apply the same faulty logic to anything else and you suddenly have basketball players who are "more valuable" than short people and adults that really shouldn't care about the small, frail, ignorant kids. Because they're "less".
> 
> 
> And here it is... How is this argument not dead after having been refuted repeatedly for centuries now, I swear.
> ...


Poverty exsits in Africa because humans are lazy? Is that what your saying? I don’t understand your point.

Why did God invent laziness anyways? Why can’t he just make humans full of energy capable of doing things without getting tired from hard days work.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

DarkFlare69 said:


> And your proof there is a GOD? I'm not a fool to just blindly believe something because I was told it was true.



I never said I had proof of a GOD. I only said you have no proof there isn't.
You shouldn't blindly believe. But that in itself goes both ways.


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## SG854 (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> I never said I had proof of a GOD. I only said you have no proof there isn't.
> You shouldn't blindly believe. But that in itself goes both ways.


It’s not up to him to prove that it doesn’t exist. The proof of burden is on you.

We have no proof there is no unicorns, so as far as I’m concerned they aren’t real until there is proof they exist.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 13, 2018)

SG854 said:


> It’s not up to him to prove that it doesn’t exist. The proof of burden is on you.
> 
> We have no proof there is no unicorns, so as far as I’m concerned they aren’t real until there is proof they exist.



You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.


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## SG854 (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
> I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.


Again he doesn’t have to prove that. Since there is no evidence it doesn’t exist as far as we are concerned. Existence has to be proved not the other way around.

You can prove you love your mother. I do it all the time.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Ratatattat said:


> You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
> I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.


And I would add, I would say the Trix Rabbit doesn’t exist. Same with the Keebler elves and snap, crackle and pop. 

I can say with full confidence that Pikachu doesn’t exist. Do I need to show proof they don’t exist? How do you do that? How do you prove something doesn’t exist. Does that mean I’m wrong to say the Easter bunny doesn’t exist without proof.


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## DarkFlare69 (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> I never said I had proof of a GOD. I only said you have no proof there isn't.
> You shouldn't blindly believe. But that in itself goes both ways.


You're right, I don't have any proof. No one has proof of the existance, or lack, of a God.

However I do have inductive reasons to believe there is not a God. We all live in the same universe. If a God is "the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority" people should all believe in the same one, or none. Assuming a God exists, there is no way for more than one religion to be the "correct" religion since they all directly disprove each other. Which God is the real one?

If the Christian God exists, then he's an asshole. "Live up to my expectations or you're going to hell for eternity" scares people into being perfect in fear of them going to hell for eternity. Each supposed "God" has different punishments and different views of what's right and wrong. I know people personally who feared every day of their live. For example, one of my old friends is transgender. She lived every day fearing that she'd go to hell for it. So it's either live life being someone who you arent (in her case, keep assigned gender at birth) or live life in fear about what will happen after life. So you're fucked either way. If she was non-religious, there wouldn't be anything to worry about.

Her parents would often blame their mistakes on "Satan". If they dropped something, it was Satan's fault. If something good came their way, it was God's blessing. If they put too much salt into their chicken soup, it was Satan's fault. Like seriously, do I even need to explain the flaws in logic with this? This isn't really an argument but rather just an addition to the last thing I said.

Our bodies are just complex chemical reactions. The universe is infinitely expanding. There is bound to be at least somewhere in the whole universe that something as amazing as life exists. That's here on Earth. Maybe there's somewhere else, but we're only certain of one place. Since the universe is so vast, there is bound to be amazing things. Our existence and the conditions we live in are far from perfect, though. There's weather that isn't perfect, we get hurt very easily, and many other things.

There's no way that there's an afterlife. When we die, the chemicals in our bodies stop interacting the way they did before. There's nothing more to it. It's like carbonation in soda, it fizzes and then it stops after being exposed to air for a while. It doesn't go to hell or heaven, it just ceases to interact the same way it did before. Same with our bodies. Our brains fail to produce the same synapses that allow us to think. Everything in our bodies is linked and that's what causes us to die easily.

I have many other reasons not to believe in a God but these are some arguments that I feel are somewhat strong. I didn't elaborate quite as much as I could have due to lack of time, but it gets the main arguments across.


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## Ev1l0rd (Oct 13, 2018)

eworm said:


> Let's twist this argument around - if such a being existed and was the creator of the universe, why would ANYTHING in the universe exist? It's all so small and (according to your assumption) insignificant in comparison, after all. The assumption here is that big = important. This is a logical fallacy. An emotional argument in a sense - the world is so big and vast and mysterious and intimidating therefore it "must" be more important, more valuable than humanity. But apply the same faulty logic to anything else and you suddenly have basketball players who are "more valuable" than short people and adults that really shouldn't care about the small, frail, ignorant kids. Because they're "less".


The fact is that the universe is big. We have observable measurements of the universe being big. Humanity is nothing but a speck. It's not unlikely were alone in the universe. Other creatures are likely to exist given the size of the universe. There are countless other planets, stars, comets and so on. Assuming that a higher being is responsible for the entire universe, why would a higher being be focused on Earth. Answer me that. What would make the earth so special over so many other planets, stars, moons, asteroids and comets.



> And here it is... How is this argument not dead after having been refuted repeatedly for centuries now, I swear.
> Do you have the means to board a plane and fly some food to those starving African children? I assume you have or at least it wouldn't took too much effort to save a bit of cash for a ticket. Why don't you then? Are you a hypocrite? Are you using the tragedy of many people less fortunate than you to paint an emotionally charged picture to avoid actually refuting an argument?
> Probably not, actually. Still, this is actually the crux of the argument.
> This argument is an argument from laziness. "God is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving, why would we, humans, need to do anything, act properly, help each other, be responsible when He could just snap His fingers and make everything okay, reverse every f*ck-up of ours?" Well, why do parents allow their children to make mistakes and to meet with bad consequences of their actions? Why do they not control their every movement, every action, every relationship? What's that? Freedom? Good job, you've found your answer.
> ...


I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.



> Side note, I'd like to ask you where you got that idea that people suffering and starving and killing each other and all that is "wrong" or "evil". I mean, if there is no Good - as in Goodness with a capital G, a supernatural "measuring stick" - then nothing can really be "more good" or "less good". We can only say a game is like Zelda because Zelda games exist. We can only say a city looks like New York, because there is a place called New York. If by saying "Zelda game" we all imagine our own arbitrary games, the conversation becomes nonsense. I'm not saying that atheists can't be morally outstanding people, wonderful people - but denying the supernatural moral standard renders it pointless. Might as well say that using words starting with a "p" is a virtuous thing to do or that eating bananas is a horribly evil thing to do.


As humans, we should apply our own moral standards to things like this. Standing by while someone else commits a horrible crime is not good if you have the means to prevent them. You indicate that your God operates on a different manner, but as a human you should judge stuff based on your own values.

Your Zelda comparison is fallacious. What if someone who has never played Zelda gets told "this game is like Zelda". They wouldn't have a proper definition of what "this game" has. They would end up playing it and as a result are able to judge said game without saying that it's "like Zelda", since they dont know what a Zelda game is.

If your God works in mysterious ways doesn't mean we don't get to judge said being by our own moral standards. If I kill a man in cold blood and tell their relatives "I assure you, I work in mysterious ways..." do you think they would buy that and suddenly praise me? Let me answer: of course not. A higher being does not escape the judgement we as humans get to apply to it.



> But you're not actually making those assumptions, only saying you do. "Let's say there's a God", you say, "so why is the universe horrible, a statement I believe to be true because people die and that's the end of life, there's nothing after death, no Heaven possible". You ask "why, assuming that God is the creator of the universe, would He care about us, considering there is no god that we would have been made in the image of and therefore be immensely valuable?"



This is what we call a train of thought. Although who says we have been made in the image of God? Are monkeys also made in the image of God? Is your God actually a monkey? And since the monkeys came from the mammals, and since all life can be traced back to fish, does that make your God a fish? My point is that you have no proof that your God made you in their image.



> Really? You think the Big Bang "explains" the origins of the universe? Tell me then, how could the Big Bang have happened, if things can't "happen" outside of time and time itself didn't exist before the Big Bang? How could all the mass that now is our universe have been concentrated in one tiny point, if there was no "space" in which a "point" could exist in?
> The Big Bang is a scientific theory that holds some water, sure - but believing it explains the origin of the universe (space, time, life, free will, all that) is nothing short of a religious belief. It describes the origin of the universe, that's what science does. It tells us "how", but never "why". Even if we eventually reach a point in time when we'll know everything about how the universe works, we "complete" all science - we'll still be nowhere near finding out "why" all that stuff works, what the purpose behind it was and what's the point. These are questions outside the field of science and the modern belief that science can actually answer those is a very illogical one.


Science can't answer them, but neither can someone suddenly saying "there is a higher being". If there's proof of a higher being existing, show it to me. Show me factual evidence that such a creature is responsible for life, death and all of it. Show me evidence that your God exists. Come on, show it. If you can say that a god exists, prove it to me. Without proof, it's meaningless. If you can't give me proof of your God existing, why would I have to take such a beings existence for granted. Come on.

Show. Me. Proof. That. Your. God. Exists.


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## SickPuppy (Oct 13, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> You missed most of the conversation obviously. It started with there is NO GOD and I just asked to prove that.
> I'd bet you love your Mother. Prove it. You can't. Doesn't mean you don't love her.


Are you saying there is a god? Yes or no?


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## Deleted User (Oct 14, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Science can't answer them, but neither can someone suddenly saying "there is a higher being". If there's proof of a higher being existing, show it to me. Show me factual evidence that such a creature is responsible for life, death and all of it. Show me evidence that your God exists. Come on, show it. If you can say that a god exists, prove it to me. Without proof, it's meaningless. If you can't give me proof of your God existing, why would I have to take such a beings existence for granted. Come on.
> 
> Show. Me. Proof. That. Your. God. Exists.



Uh, eworm didn't mention anything about proof of God existing. He was pointing out that the Big Bang does not explain everything. He was not providing an answer, he was instead refuting your earlier argument.

I personally think there's not enough evidence either way from a scientific perspective. On the one hand, the odds of everything turning out how it did? The odds of no other alien life anywhere? Astronomical. On the other hand, to jump from that to saying there's a big immortal omniscient being in the sky watching over us? That's quite a leap in logic.



Ev1l0rd said:


> I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.


So why aren't you helping them?


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## dAVID_ (Oct 14, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Don't mind me, just passing by.


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## AkikoKumagara (Oct 14, 2018)

I'm not going to speak of Christianity specifically, but rather religion. I don't hate the concept of religion, though I wish it were used more productively rather than to fuel some kinds of agendas that harm other people... especially in regards to governmental rights and liberties. I think people need to allow for a separation of religion and government, and many are incapable of it.

Religion has killed more people than its saved or helped, and to me, that's ironic. Work needs to be done to make this right or I can't support religion. I do understand why people want to believe in something, I just wish that it could work in a way that's less harmful to people who don't care.


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## eworm (Oct 14, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> The fact is that the universe is big. We have observable measurements of the universe being big. Humanity is nothing but a speck. It's not unlikely were alone in the universe. Other creatures are likely to exist given the size of the universe. There are countless other planets, stars, comets and so on. Assuming that a higher being is responsible for the entire universe, why would a higher being be focused on Earth. Answer me that. What would make the earth so special over so many other planets, stars, moons, asteroids and comets.



Once again, you're making the same assumption. We have no idea what the universe is for. Christianity doesn't claim that humans are the only thing God cares about, the only thing that He had a reason to create. Just that God loves us more than we can imagine and that He wants us to be His children. The rest of the universe may or may not have been created at least partially for our sake, while the rest may have some other purpose. Maybe there is indeed other life in the universe and maybe God loves those beings too. The point is, "humans can't possibly matter if the universe is so much bigger" is not a valid argument. I mean, you may build a brand new house, a villa even, and still love your run-down old shack of the family house more, at least in some way.



Ev1l0rd said:


> I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.


No, they didn't. but the "corrupt governments" you speak of are comprised of people with free will and the people in the first world countries also have the free will to get up, gather the resources and manpower, research the situation and do something about it. Yes, it's more complex of an issue than just sending a bunch of food their way, I get it, but can you honestly say that if the majority of people were willing, actually willing, to do something about the issue - and to sacrifice some money, time and convenience for it - that it wouldn't be a matter of a couple years to see dramatic improvements? Most of the suffering in the world is caused by either the sufferer's or others' choices, usually combining and accumulating into a tragic domino effect.



Ev1l0rd said:


> As humans, we should apply our own moral standards to things like this. Standing by while someone else commits a horrible crime is not good if you have the means to prevent them. You indicate that your God operates on a different manner, but as a human you should judge stuff based on your own values.


But what are "your own moral standards"? If we were to do that, we'd never be able to convict anyone or punish anyone. Your Honor, I believe most of the people in this court do claim murder is wrong, but when I was slaughtering that woman, I was honestly following my moral standards, which claim it was a righteous thing to do, because she was a lesbian or a trump voter or a black person or whatever type of person my own moral standard justifies killing. So I'd like, Your Honor, to receive some state money as prize for my actions.
Hitler was following his own moral standards, believing Jews were a plague to eliminate to help the world. That's an extreme example, but that is exactly what happens when morality is supposedly subjective. It leads to people inventing or misinterpreting the actual morality, then committing some awful things. Nobody does evil whilst believing it's evil. The worst hell comes from the well-intentioned following their own moral values and judgments.



Ev1l0rd said:


> Your Zelda comparison is fallacious. What if someone who has never played Zelda gets told "this game is like Zelda". They wouldn't have a proper definition of what "this game" has. They would end up playing it and as a result are able to judge said game without saying that it's "like Zelda", since they dont know what a Zelda game is.


Wow, that's a nitpick, I never said those were fantastic allegories and that everyone in the world has been to New York. I was making my point about how making a value judgment is a comparison to the universal.
Or do you believe there are people who don't know that "good" means something desirable and valuable as opposed to something undesirable and harmful? Because there aren't. Everybody knows the implications, the value judgment associated with these words. Little kids learn what "don't do it, that's bad" or "good job, champ" means.
But seriously, I think it's 



Ev1l0rd said:


> If your God works in mysterious ways doesn't mean we don't get to judge said being by our own moral standards. If I kill a man in cold blood and tell their relatives "I assure you, I work in mysterious ways..." do you think they would buy that and suddenly praise me? Let me answer: of course not. A higher being does not escape the judgement we as humans get to apply to it.


This is exactly the behaviour you encouraged a paragraph ago, an "own moral value" being followed, but I guess now it's bad. Okay.

God can't be subject of a moral judgment, because He's the object of it. You're saying "shouldn't we judge Ultimate Beauty according to our faulty, imperfect standards of beauty? Look at Venus the Milo, it is a beautiful statue, yet it's still so completely different from this Ultimate Beauty. that of course means that the Ultimate Beauty is less pretty, not that Venus the Milo, with all its beauty, still barely approaches the true magnificence that is Beauty". You're saying "let's decide whether Good is good or evil". That's literally insane.

Now of course you're making the most common mistake in the world and mistaking judging a person (or in this case Persons) with judging the act. You say some of God's actions (or lack thereof) are evil. That is at least not a completely lunatic point to make. And the answer of "God works in mysterious ways" that you find so appalling is actually a good point if you think about it. Imagine you're a little kid whose video game console broke down. You demand it's repaired. but then a guy shows up and starts taking it apart further! What the f*ck, he's clearly going to ruin it completely, what an asshole! So you start screaming and throwing a tantrum and you grab the half-undone console from his hands, yelling at him and not listening to his explanations about how he needs to reach the inner parts to understand and fix the problem and that he will make it better afterwards. You just yank it out of his hands and it breaks in half. Now it's beyond repair, or at least it will cost more and take more time. Who's at fault? The mechanic guy who was "breaking it" or you who acted wrong out of ignorance and self-assuredness?

God is the mechanic. Sometimes to reach the problem, the real problem, not the surface level stuff, he needs to take us apart some more. He's a surgeon who can't heal you, without cutting you open. It may hurt, sure, it may result in a long reconvalescence period afterwards when you'll feel even worse than before the surgery - but he's the expert, he knows better. Don't struggle under the surgeons knife. That's why Christianity so underlines the trust in God. He's the ultimate Love and He's the ultimate Wisdom. Those working together will never make a mistake during surgery, it's only the patient who can screw it up with this guy. And screw it up we do.





Ev1l0rd said:


> Science can't answer them, but neither can someone suddenly saying "there is a higher being". If there's proof of a higher being existing, show it to me. Show me factual evidence that such a creature is responsible for life, death and all of it. Show me evidence that your God exists. Come on, show it. If you can say that a god exists, prove it to me. Without proof, it's meaningless. If you can't give me proof of your God existing, why would I have to take such a beings existence for granted. Come on.
> 
> Show. Me. Proof. That. Your. God. Exists.


I wonder what you mean by "proof". A tangible, material piece of evidence? An undisputable claim from some authority? An irrefutable logical process leading to such conclusion? Believe me, I can do this dance and do it gladly.

I assume the Original Mover idea you don't find enough? You think Big Bang is that one thing that could happen without a cause (therefore being your creator, I would consider it a slight downgrade from the Christian God, but tastes are tastes) or do you just don't believe that effect requires a cause?


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 14, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> and where is my claim?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


lsience proved how a planet is born this year as it proved how a star is born.
although it's a mix of dying stars and upcomming stars for planets  to come this only means there was more time needed to create the earth... most likely there were a few other planets before.
there are only about 4 still possible planets (that we now know of) where life could excist like our planet, but it's hard to tell, for they're far far away, so the excact detailles about gravety and mixture of gasses, atmosphere, ground is hard to be sure of.
if our planet was the first then there's no way there is creation, nothing means no life, no structure, no nothing... spoken words never created anything.
what could be, is an alien sneezed live on earth, but that's really unlikely.
like already said, magic is hard to prove not excisting, but it's the most unlikely explenation there is. 

and even if we are created by some form of being, what does it help to praise such being for you now, if he or she doesn't care about our rotten lives now, why would he bother in an afterlife.
why follow rules based on just a book for something we have no proof of even being real?
yes it's nice to live without murder, rape, and thiefts... it would be the best if we found one partner in life to be happy with for the rest of our lives since it makes the chance of getting a SOA a lot less.
that being said it's not possible for us now, or more then half of the people on this planet were to be given up on.
for the poor it's impossible to accept these rules, they would die a real slow and painfull death.
not looking for new partners in life means we'll cheat on ourselves.
no killings sound great, except, i don't trust all around us for following the same rules of life and i will defend my life if ever needed.

there's no way any religion of today will solve our problems one day, and any religion that doesn't has history from the beginning on is fake.

even if all the world would se mohammed as the profet, then still we'd fight for the detailles in life make it impossible to be and function excact the same, then we still would fight for money, water and food.
then comes sience it always will and proof there's something missing in an old religion there had to be for it's not complete covering our history, and bang there's a new world war.

God can't ever give us world peace even if he's allmighty.
a world where there's no death is not heaven it's hell, for the problems with food, work, water, and so, and so.
a world created by another life is a problem adding to the problem of our history, it's not solving one.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 14, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> lsience proved how a planet is born this year as it proved how a star is born.
> although it's a mix of dying stars and upcomming stars for planets  to come this only means there was more time needed to create the earth... most likely there were a few other planets before.
> there are only about 4 still possible planets (that we now know of) where life could excist like our planet, but it's hard to tell, for they're far far away, so the excact detailles about gravety and mixture of gasses, atmosphere, ground is hard to be sure of.
> if our planet was the first then there's no way there is creation, nothing means no life, no structure, no nothing... spoken words never created anything.
> ...



Mankind is responsible for the condition of the world we live in.

When someone states there is "NO GOD" its their burden of proof to validate that statement, otherwise say "I don't think there is a GOD" which diverts a factual statement to an opinion. You just don't get off the hook that easily by saying I don't have to prove it, not if your stating a fact.


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## Lucifer666 (Oct 14, 2018)

I'm just really secular about the whole thing. I don't care to discuss religion. I understand that people are passionate about it (Christianity or any other religion), and I am respectful of that as long as they are respectful of others who might not subscribe to the same faith. Sadly that is a rarity. The whole discourse surrounding it is a can of worms I prefer to leave nice and sealed.

EDIT: FFS I always get a good chuckle when I see that I've posted on a thread like this on the front page, given my username and all. It doesn't mean anything; I just genuinely liked the sound of the word "Lucifer", but it was taken already so the supervisor who was changing my name slapped 666 onto the end.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 14, 2018)

Sophie-bear said:


> I'm not going to speak of Christianity specifically, but rather religion. I don't hate the concept of religion, though I wish it were used more productively rather than to fuel some kinds of agendas that harm other people... especially in regards to governmental rights and liberties. I think people need to allow for a separation of religion and government, and many are incapable of it.
> 
> Religion has killed more people than its saved or helped, and to me, that's ironic. Work needs to be done to make this right or I can't support religion. I do understand why people want to believe in something, I just wish that it could work in a way that's less harmful to people who don't care.



And where did you get your facts? Did religion in fact kill more people or was it the foxes hiding among the sheep? How did you count the amount of good that religion has done vrs bad? Just curious as to your facts or is this opinion?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Ev1l0rd said:


> The fact is that the universe is big. We have observable measurements of the universe being big. Humanity is nothing but a speck. It's not unlikely were alone in the universe. Other creatures are likely to exist given the size of the universe. There are countless other planets, stars, comets and so on. Assuming that a higher being is responsible for the entire universe, why would a higher being be focused on Earth. Answer me that. What would make the earth so special over so many other planets, stars, moons, asteroids and comets.
> 
> 
> I'm sure those African children you mention had the free choice to be born somewhere where a toilet is considered luxurious, where survival entirely depends on whether you were able to sell enough food that day, where the government is corrupt to the point where funding will likely end up supporting the corrupt ones instead of the people that need it. I'm sure those kids just have the "freedom" to be born in a third world country.
> ...



Your deduction:
If P were true then I would know it; in fact I do not know it; therefore P cannot be true.
Could it be that one simply lacks proper means of detection?
Stating there is "NO GOD" requires evidence to the fact. Assuming there is "NO GOD" is an opinion.


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## AkikoKumagara (Oct 14, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> And where did you get your facts? Did religion in fact kill more people or was it the foxes hiding among the sheep? How did you count the amount of good that religion has done vrs bad? Just curious as to your facts or is this opinion?



My facts are that historically, religion has been a primary factor behind most war and acts of terrorism, to an unbelievable degree. Around 200,000,000 people have been killed in the name of religion, and if that number isn't staggering to you, I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter if the person is a true member of that religion by your standards or not, you're not the gatekeeper of religion. All it takes is for that person to say they believe in something, in the same way that's all it takes from you or anyone else.

Edit: I'm also not claiming religion has directly caused these deaths, just that they may not have happened without its influence. It's not something that can be proven as we can't read one's thoughts or know their true motivation for doing something unless it's made obvious to us.



TerribleTy27 said:


> Note the YOUR in there. Everyone has a god. Not necessarily the Christian one, but it's still there.


Absolutely, unequivocally false. Stop.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 14, 2018)

Sophie-bear said:


> My facts are that historically, religion has been a primary factor behind most war and acts of terrorism, to an unbelievable degree. Around 200,000,000 people have been killed in the name of religion, and if that number isn't staggering to you, I'm not sure I'm the one with the problem. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter if the person is a true member of that religion by your standards or not, you're not the gatekeeper of religion. All it takes is for that person to say they believe in something, in the same way that's all it takes from you or anyone else.
> 
> Edit: I'm also not claiming religion has directly caused these deaths, just that they may not have happened without its influence. It's not something that can be proven as we can't read one's thoughts or know their true motivation for doing something unless it's made obvious to us.



First let me say its a tragedy as to what Religion based or just Mankind based atrocities is doing to the human race. That said I sometime think we point our fingers at the container and not the contents. I (opinion) don't believe that most religions teach hate and killing, nor is that their purpose or position. Yet there are those who do take advantage of there positions in such environments and are truly the real culprit. However I (opinion) don't believe that removing religion from the environment would stop or change what the perpetrator would commit in anyway.


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## AkikoKumagara (Oct 14, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> First let me say its a tragedy as to what Religion based or just Mankind based atrocities is doing to the human race. That said I sometime think we point our fingers at the container and not the contents. I (opinion) don't believe that most religions teach hate and killing, nor is that their purpose or position. Yet there are those who do take advantage of there positions in such environments and are truly the real culprit. However I (opinion) don't believe that removing religion from the environment would stop or change what the perpetrator would commit in anyway.



It's impossible to prove either way, so it's a pointless debate. Just something interesting to ponder.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 14, 2018)

It appears we are now going for the agnosticism debate. This being some maintain that while gods may be hard to prove then the absence of them is equally hard to prove so one should not assert as such if being logical is your thing.
It is not an indefensible position, however I would maintain that if you carry on with the probability based approach to life (absolute certainty is hard to come by anywhere) then we can drop the lawyer's words approach to life. Else we end up with stuff like "Based on multiple longitudinal studies and historical data then a dose of between 500 and 1000 mg of acetylsalicylic acid will tend to cure cephalgia, colloquially known as a headache, however those with conditions such as haemophilia which one would be ill advised to take such a dose, multiple other substances will also be contraindicated for such things. Furthermore a headache may be a symptom of another conditions like strokes, tumours, partial occlusions, bleeding and trauma." when all that really needs to be said is "take an aspirin if you have a headache".


Oh and just before we get back into grammar/linguistics I should note god with capital G tends to be that of the Abrahamic faiths in English. 



Ev1l0rd said:


> FAST6191 said:
> 
> 
> > What is disrespectful about discussing that?
> ...


Forbidden for them maybe, why would we not want to discuss it though?


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 14, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Mankind is responsible for the condition of the world we live in.
> 
> When someone states there is "NO GOD" its their burden of proof to validate that statement, otherwise say "I don't think there is a GOD" which diverts a factual statement to an opinion. You just don't get off the hook that easily by saying I don't have to prove it, not if your stating a fact.


partly yes... however, if there's god that planned our lives, he'd be responsible for supplies.
then there's that big hole in this story, how come we as man are responsible, i mean we only excist halfway of life in the history of this planet, yet you tell we're responsible for all?
no, we're responsible for our own enviroment yes, but human alone can't ever hold account for the whole planet.
that being said, we did make a mess in our envirement, and yes i'm aware it means action now.
if god created us, then he ultimately created what we later made, he should've known what was to come.
if you got a pet, you let hem be, but you keep close watch an it.
you'll check his food supply daily (unlike our god)
you check it's drinking supplu (unlike our god)
you make sure it can only access save enviroments for it to be in.
if you created something like structure, you make sure that it lasts right? you want it to be stable, proper built, and so on?
you'd repair it if it meant anything to you right?
well look at our god's care for it's creation! 

people are staving!
war's all around us!
there's no balance in jobs or payments!
Pain is everywhere!
there's not enough space to life for all humans on this planet, and we should take in account there are animals around us!
children are dying!
you say we are responsible.. so the mass extinction of dinosaurs is man made you claim?
okay i'm with you on todays extinctions, the plastic soup, and even the weather of today, but how did we do the killing of dinosaurs?
if you claim for there being a god, in whatever form there is: again, where the fuck is your proof!
you're not really answering any questions made, but you are asking a lot of proof coming your way.

do look in yout math book for calculations about probabilities, do the equotation with a god vs there not being a god.
try to get as many variables in your equotation as possible, and you see...

math ain't perfect, specially in probabilities, but it's the best proof there is.


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## eworm (Oct 14, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> well look at our god's care for it's creation!
> 
> people are staving!
> war's all around us!
> ...



we still live in caves, naked, and fear predatory animals at every turn
we don't have a system of any kind that would prevent unjust abuse of people going unpunished, so it's every man for himself

never figured out how to prevent or combat any disease, so indeed we're dying like flies left and right
still know jack sh*t about the universe we live in and the ways it works, so we still can't, I dunno, predict the weather or mass-produce food faster
can't traverse this sh*thole of a planet any faster than a brisk walk and don't get me started on flying or diving underwater
Here's more for ya, Mr I-look-only-at-the-bad-and-don't-understand-why-everything-is-so-bad.


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 14, 2018)

eworm said:


> we still live in caves, naked, and fear predatory animals at every turn
> we don't have a system of any kind that would prevent unjust abuse of people going unpunished, so it's every man for himself
> 
> never figured out how to prevent or combat any disease, so indeed we're dying like flies left and right
> ...


not looking at the bad, just telling it's not making sense there's a god we should follow.
i tried a long way to follow the idea of there being a god, to be precise, i was a christian from birth till i got 30.
there it got corrupted for the first time that i couldn't ignore the signs anymore.
a friend from church hang himself, he was my age...
found out he was struggling feeling gay attracted.
no one even listened to the problems occuring for him, not even his parents.
the church was clear, you could be gay, but you can't practise it.
well, start trying the same logic for yourself being heterosexual, you can be it but you can't practice it...
you love a person, but you can't tell, can never hold hads, can't kiss.
worse the person tells you he likes you the same way and you can't tell the truth...
ever thought of this? that's reallety for 5% of each church member.
later came the point of really checking history, half the battles of the bible left no bodies, no weapons nothing...
that's odd you know.
strugglin' with these things i began to check what was real and what was told to be real to me, and in fact there never been anything real about what i thought was gods work, it all was so much told to me that i forgot to question my doing towards the church (can't find the right words for it).
i thought i felt a presence around me, but i made the feeling myself...
sounds wierd right? ever thought you be in love with someone that you never seen in real life? it's fake and most likely you feel it when you meet.
i thought maybe it's just my church so i went in different religions to see if they got answers that would stand my questions...
islam failed about the same way, other christian churges failed...
they all had the same flaw, the rules were man made, en when you start to question them it breaks or you, or your relligion.
seeing the hard world around me now without god doesn't make it more beautifull, but it made more sence.
if god is responcible we don't have to face problems is told to us, so we really want it...
truth is, even if there is a god, it's either death or ignoring our problems for since the beginning of time.
it didn't leave any help of telling us how to find him, just left us to die slowely...

Sorry i know it hurts to hear your life is a lie, but it is a lie, no way around it.. 
the russian astronaut was right, he travelled beyond our planet but found no proof of any god.


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## Ev1l0rd (Oct 14, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> Forbidden for them maybe, why would we not want to discuss it though?


I mean, I'm fine w/ discussing it, just considered it might not be wise to possibly incite some flames by doing it (since for some reason, some religious people seem to take great offense at people that aren't them comitting what they view as sins).


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## FAST6191 (Oct 14, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> I mean, I'm fine w/ discussing it, just considered it might not be wise to possibly incite some flames by doing it (since for some reason, some religious people seem to take great offense at people that aren't them comitting what they view as sins).


If I allow such people to dictate what I can and can't discuss, or, worse still, invite any and all*, then I might as well not have bothered. Better yet most religions seem to be concerned with the purpose and such of the universe and somehow they can't have little old me discussing it?

*I am sure we have both seen the endless amounts of things dubbed offensive to Islam that people cook up, or worse consider an argument, and the fun and games that ensues from that.

Certain actions towards individuals might be beyond the bounds of good taste but the sorts of things under discussion here... nah.


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## Ev1l0rd (Oct 14, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> If I allow such people to dictate what I can and can't discuss, or, worse still, invite any and all*, then I might as well not have bothered. Better yet most religions seem to be concerned with the purpose and such of the universe and somehow they can't have little old me discussing it?
> 
> *I am sure we have both seen the endless amounts of things dubbed offensive to Islam that people cook up, or worse consider an argument, and the fun and games that ensues from that.
> 
> Certain actions towards individuals might be beyond the bounds of good taste but the sorts of things under discussion here... nah.





> *Flaming, Trolling & Harassment*
> 
> Do not "flame", "bash", "troll" or harass others. Blatantly offensive comments or actions directed at others will not be tolerated. While we do allow members to debate and voice their own opinions, there will be a limit to how far a heated debate can go before it is closed by staff. If you harass someone you will be disciplined. Period.
> 
> ...



This was my reasoning for not bringing it up/saying it directly, wasn't sure if it'd violate the rules.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 14, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> This was my reasoning for not bringing it up/saying it directly, wasn't sure if it'd violate the rules.



Funny this all started with a statement that there is "NO GOD". I asked that person to prove that since, they were stating a fact which is factual only if supported by truth.
They couldn't, so it turned into me claiming there was a GOD (which I never did). This is why these discussions hold no water.


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## kumikochan (Oct 14, 2018)

I'm not religious at all but there's one belief that i like the most and proves why God is so unjust and cruel if there really was a god like told so in the bible. It is the belief that Lucifer actually succeeded in taking down God from his throne and banished him to earth while claiming to everyone that he truly was God and that the banished one was the real Devil. Because no one actually saw God of the Angels everybody believed Lucifer him claiming to be God and that the so called fake Lucifer tried to take him down but did not succeed. So Lucifier is god and the devil himself is the real god, it is a good explanation why god seems to be so cruel while the Devil seems not to be and that the picture of the Devil being bad is the picture painted by Lucifer himself but it is actually God being banished trying to help humans out and one day taking his throne back. I like that story atleast a lot more and it also makes a lot more sense if i was religious wich again i am not


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## Ratatattat (Oct 14, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> I'm not religious at all but there's one belief that i like the most and proves why God is so unjust and cruel if there really was a god like told so in the bible. It is the belief that Lucifer actually succeeded in taking down God from his throne and banished him to earth while claiming to everyone that he truly was God and that the banished one was the real Devil. Because no one actually saw God of the Angels everybody believed Lucifer him claiming to be God and that the so called fake Lucifer tried to take him down but did not succeed. So Lucifier is god and the devil himself is the real god, it is a good explanation why god seems to be so cruel while the Devil seems not to be and that the picture of the Devil being bad is the picture painted by Lucifer himself but it is actually God being banished trying to help humans out and one day taking his throne back. I like that story atleast a lot more and it also makes a lot more sense if i was religious wich again i am not



I'm not gonna tell you what your missing you'll have to figure that out for yourself. But I will leave you with a clue. All religious based documents were written by men or women based upon their knowledge and communication abilities of the time.


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## kumikochan (Oct 14, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> I'm not gonna tell you what your missing you'll have to figure that out for yourself. But I will leave you with a clue. All religious based documents were written by men or women based upon their knowledge and communication abilities of the time.


Like i already said, i am not religious so i don't believe any of those stories it being the bible or the story i just said or stories from the quran. I just find it the most interesting story, that's all


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## Deleted User (Oct 15, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> I'm not religious at all but there's one belief that i like the most and proves why God is so unjust and cruel if there really was a god like told so in the bible. It is the belief that Lucifer actually succeeded in taking down God from his throne and banished him to earth while claiming to everyone that he truly was God and that the banished one was the real Devil. Because no one actually saw God of the Angels everybody believed Lucifer him claiming to be God and that the so called fake Lucifer tried to take him down but did not succeed. So Lucifier is god and the devil himself is the real god, it is a good explanation why god seems to be so cruel while the Devil seems not to be and that the picture of the Devil being bad is the picture painted by Lucifer himself but it is actually God being banished trying to help humans out and one day taking his throne back. I like that story atleast a lot more and it also makes a lot more sense if i was religious wich again i am not



That's... Actually an interesting and well thought out theory. Props to you, sir.


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## eworm (Oct 15, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> i tried a long way to follow the idea of there being a god, to be precise, i was a christian from birth till i got 30.
> there it got corrupted for the first time that i couldn't ignore the signs anymore.
> a friend from church hang himself, he was my age...
> found out he was struggling feeling gay attracted.
> ...


I'm not married. I indeed can't "practice my heterosexuality". So I don't. The priests are in the same boat, except they can't even marry to lift that "ban". Also, think for a moment what it says about you (and so, so many people nowadays) when you consider "not being able to have sex" as one of the worst things that can happen to you, something that takes away your life's meaning. Way to use "some people are forbidden to have sex" argument alongside "wars", "starvation" and "dying children" (which probably doesn't include the ones who are killed via abortion, right, f*ck those ones).

*Don't treat all homosexuals as victims just because you feel it helps your argument to be on the side of "the oppressed"*. There are many homosexual Christians who follow Christ willingly, who deny acting out their sin and thank God every day that He gives them the strength to do so. It is still inconclusive whether all cases of homosexuality can't be "straightened", but even if that's the case, you are not speaking for any group and neither am I. We can't even speak for any one person besides ourselves. The "group" mentality is a fallacy in itself. What does certain individuals being gay, or black, or rich or Democrats or whatever have to do with these individuals' beliefs and opinions? And it has even less to do with the actual question of "is God factual".

I'm sorry about your friend, but not only is it a fallacy (anecdotal evidence in a case concerning _literally everything_), but it doesn't even follow that if some people who call themselves Christians act in wrong, non-Christian ways ergo God doesn't exist. That's like saying you forgot to buy your cat food on your trip for groceries, therefore, your cat isn't real or doesn't ever eat food. Or like saying there are bad atheists, therefore atheism makes you bad.

If there are bad Christians, it is not the answer to leave Christianity. The answer is to be the good Christian and to actually talk about the apparent glaring differences in interpretation, maybe help others and yourself to grow. Or should I assume that if a big enough group was being hateful assholes and justifying it somehow with "God doesn't exist", you would leave atheism too?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



kumikochan said:


> I'm not religious at all but there's one belief that i like the most and proves why God is so unjust and cruel if there really was a god like told so in the bible. It is the belief that Lucifer actually succeeded in taking down God from his throne and banished him to earth while claiming to everyone that he truly was God and that the banished one was the real Devil. Because no one actually saw God of the Angels everybody believed Lucifer him claiming to be God and that the so called fake Lucifer tried to take him down but did not succeed. So Lucifier is god and the devil himself is the real god, it is a good explanation why god seems to be so cruel while the Devil seems not to be and that the picture of the Devil being bad is the picture painted by Lucifer himself but it is actually God being banished trying to help humans out and one day taking his throne back. I like that story atleast a lot more and it also makes a lot more sense if i was religious wich again i am not


You do realise Lucifer "taking down" God is less likely than a single-cell organism "ending" the universe, right?


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## FAST6191 (Oct 15, 2018)

eworm said:


> I'm not married. I indeed can't "practice my heterosexuality". So I don't. The priests are in the same boat, except they can't even marry to lift that "ban". Also, think for a moment what it says about you (and so, so many people nowadays) when you consider "not being able to have sex" as one of the worst things that can happen to you, something that takes away your life's meaning. Way to use "some people are forbidden to have sex" argument alongside "wars", "starvation" and "dying children" (which probably doesn't include the ones who are killed via abortion, right, f*ck those ones).
> 
> *Don't treat all homosexuals as victims just because you feel it helps your argument to be on the side of "the oppressed"*. There are many homosexual Christians who follow Christ willingly, who deny acting out their sin and thank God every day that He gives them the strength to do so. It is still inconclusive whether all cases of homosexuality can't be "straightened", but even if that's the case, you are not speaking for any group and neither am I. We can't even speak for any one person besides ourselves. The "group" mentality is a fallacy in itself. What does certain individuals being gay, or black, or rich or Democrats or whatever have to do with these individuals' beliefs and opinions? And it has even less to do with the actual question of "is God factual".
> 
> ...



I am no fan of the "no sex before marriage" stuff either -- it can lead to a lot of poor choices. Even without that though you can presumably see a path to a life with someone, probably even within the next few years. Priest wise... of those variations that do such nonsense then what about all those little choir boys? Similarly you also have the added bonus that you can tell yourself it is a symbol of your dedicate to said god.

Denial of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... telling gay people they are wrong and their no more harmful than things we deem perfectly acceptable and common and will be punished by eternal hellfire (and eternal means eternal) and thus can never have a relationship their body is telling them is so very right. Do you want to try that one again?

I would agree simply not getting laid for a while is no great shake and often thing the kids like to imagine a far greater issue than it is. This is not that and if you want to talk about fallacies and failures in argumentation then maybe false equivalence is a good one to start with.

Even if one could reliably "straighten" people out then why would we want to?

Abortion is a different matter entirely. We had a whole debate https://gbatemp.net/threads/how-do-you-feel-about-abortion.501574/ if you want that. Personally I would say they were not dead children any more than using a condom kills them.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 15, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> I am no fan of the "no sex before marriage" stuff either -- it can lead to a lot of poor choices. Even without that though you can presumably see a path to a life with someone, probably even within the next few years. Priest wise... of those variations that do such nonsense then what about all those little choir boys? Similarly you also have the added bonus that you can tell yourself it is a symbol of your dedicate to said god.
> 
> Denial of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... telling gay people they are wrong and their no more harmful than things we deem perfectly acceptable and common and will be punished by eternal hellfire (and eternal means eternal) and thus can never have a relationship their body is telling them is so very right. Do you want to try that one again?
> 
> ...


I agreed with you for the most apart until you got to the abortion but. I fully disagree with you because I believe that to be incorrect.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 15, 2018)

PanTheFaun said:


> I agreed with you for the most apart until you got to the abortion but. I fully disagree with you because I believe that to be incorrect.


OK. I am not entirely sure what I am supposed to do with that. I guess I could try to draw out some of your logic and reasons here (though I would say go to that thread rather than send this one any more off topic), if you want mine I did baseline logic and a few edge cases and hypotheticals in that thread.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 15, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> OK. I am not entirely sure what I am supposed to do with that. I guess I could try to draw out some of your logic and reasons here (though I would say go to that thread rather than send this one any more off topic), if you want mine I did baseline logic and a few edge cases and hypotheticals in that thread.


It's all good. I'm not in the mood to debate or anything like that. I just thought I would mention my opinion, I guess? Haha.


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## eworm (Oct 15, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> Denial of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... telling gay people they are wrong and their no more harmful than things we deem perfectly acceptable and common and will be punished by eternal hellfire (and eternal means eternal) and thus can never have a relationship their body is telling them is so very right. Do you want to try that one again?


Body telling you something is right means jack. When I'm angry my body will tell me smashing someone's face in might be good. _Rapists_ do what their bodies tell them is so right. I'm not saying all pleasure is wrong, all that's physical is sinful. Of course not, our bodies have the same inventor as our souls and they were designed as beyond amazing. But "listening" to them? I'd rather have my body rather than have my body have me, thank you.

Also, there is nothing about denying life or liberty or happiness in Christianity. Abortion is not life, hedonism is not liberty and pleasure is not happiness. Meanwhile sex is not "putting a thing in a thing for some rush", it's a life-creating act in which love joins two people into one body, sharing themselves with each other more than is otherwise possible, and sanctity joins childish fun without either losing anything of itself. If you think Christians believe sex to be sinful, think again, we have a much higher view of it than atheists. Of course you don't see any sense in installing an alarm system in a run-down shack - but we see a majestic temple full of riches instead.



FAST6191 said:


> Even if one could reliably "straighten" people out then why would we want to?


To avoid the denial of life (babies come from heterosexual couples) for one thing. To allow the pursuit of happiness as realised via creating a healthy marriage and family. God is One in Three Persons and humans, unless designated otherwise by God, are at their happiest and most realised as a part of a family unit. Even biologically we're wired very much for that purpose. There's a reason children brought up by same-sex couples are much more likely to have psychological and social issues, be more susceptible to depression and such. It's unnatural. Under a guise of "fixing", we've broken the working thing instead of addressing the actual problem.



FAST6191 said:


> Abortion is a different matter entirely. We had a whole debate https://gbatemp.net/threads/how-do-you-feel-about-abortion.501574/ if you want that. Personally I would say they were not dead children any more than using a condom kills them.


Using a condom prevents conception. There's no life there. But conception creates a unique genetic code. It's not that of the father, it's not that of the mother. It won't change or grow with the development, it's the same 1 millisecond after conception as it will be 100 years after. That is the only biological threshold at which we can safely define the beginning of human life. Ending a human life is killing. Murder is killing with intent and abortion is intentional. It's a simple matter.


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 15, 2018)

eworm said:


> I'm not married. I indeed can't "practice my heterosexuality". So I don't. The priests are in the same boat, except they can't even marry to lift that "ban". Also, think for a moment what it says about you (and so, so many people nowadays) when you consider "not being able to have sex" as one of the worst things that can happen to you, something that takes away your life's meaning. Way to use "some people are forbidden to have sex" argument alongside "wars", "starvation" and "dying children" (which probably doesn't include the ones who are killed via abortion, right, f*ck those ones).
> 
> *Don't treat all homosexuals as victims just because you feel it helps your argument to be on the side of "the oppressed"*. There are many homosexual Christians who follow Christ willingly, who deny acting out their sin and thank God every day that He gives them the strength to do so. It is still inconclusive whether all cases of homosexuality can't be "straightened", but even if that's the case, you are not speaking for any group and neither am I. We can't even speak for any one person besides ourselves. The "group" mentality is a fallacy in itself. What does certain individuals being gay, or black, or rich or Democrats or whatever have to do with these individuals' beliefs and opinions? And it has even less to do with the actual question of "is God factual".
> 
> ...


right, you don't have to get married to join the adult thing, so... for your knowledge, most priest are lying about not having any sexual activity.
that being said yes there are those who have no moral objection against being lonely or just not sexual active...
still doesn't give the right to take that freedom away from someone.
you tell me there are christians who're gay, and you're right, but i doubt it really free will.
free will is when it comes from a person self, without any sugestions being made for him or her.
no hetero will ever out of free will give up hetero sexuality, what proof do you have gay do?
i mean any non religious getting straight camp seen ever?
yes i've seen such camps, and i spoke some.
and no i won't tell them thier lying cause it's thier life...
not being able to connect with your inner self is worse then anything.
it's not just one case it's litterely all around me now i got out of church surroundings.
i was blind for the destruction of religious thinking when i was young.
but hell it distroyed much lives, lives that meant the world to me.
and it's still taking lives around me i care for...
lives going to waste just because of a myth...
the wasted lives and i'm just 34 now that i can trace back to religion, wasted lives of people i really spoke in life with, seen at thier homes.
i counted alredy 10 now, just because they never got the chance to discover a free life, a life without rules except that it's not right to take what's not meant to be yours.
1 girl got raped for helping building a christian school in nigeria (muslims around wanted to stop it for they were scared for the religion.
3 girls i know got molested/ abused and can't ever really talk about it without getting in a firestorm of hate...
2 girls i know are blamed themself for getting abused for they seemed asking for it the father from the church dared saying.
1 guy my age killed himself for he couldn't ever be himself with his parents and friends.
at least 3 girls i know are forced into mariage. not even my worst anemy should have such a life.

but it's allright, cause these all are collateral damage for believing a book over real life.

sorry it hurts to see the price each day.


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## eworm (Oct 15, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> right, you don't have to get married to join the adult thing, so... for your knowledge, most priest are lying about not having any sexual activity.


Yes, let's assume that most of what we hear from people are lies. That's not gonna cause any problems in our society or even our personal lives. But of course you didn't mean that. You're probably lying about not believing in God. I mean, it's guilty until proven innocent, right?

Secondly, I'm not talking for anyone. I said so before. My argument isn't "all priests are celibate" - my argument is "all Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate and that's not a bad thing". Another is "it is best only to have sex with your spouse". You haven't addressed either thing here.



JaapDaniels said:


> that being said yes there are those who have no moral objection against being lonely or just not sexual active...
> still doesn't give the right to take that freedom away from someone.


Oh crap, I knew our priests weren't sneaky enough about installing those mind-control chips in literally everyone, you saw them, huh. You are so right, we are totally taking away people's freedom to have sex by... believing ourselves that it's best not to? Geez, you're so concerned what we think that it's literally controlling your choices and actions, does it? You should probably think for yourself more. And speaking of...



JaapDaniels said:


> you tell me there are christians who're gay, and you're right, but i doubt it really free will.
> free will is when it comes from a person self, without any sugestions being made for him or her.


HAHAHA!! Holy sh*t, are you kidding me?
"Hey, Joe, wanna grab some ice-cream?"
"AAH, MY FREE WILL!"
Dude, every thought comes from somewhere, every option we consider we consider because of some suggestion. I saw this thread's title on the right side of the screen. I clicked it - probably not of my own free will, since all I could do at that point is freely consider clicking it or not and then do whatever I wanted. Do you obey the traffic laws? Congratulations, you have no free will apparently. Oh, but wait, you probably drive the car the way you were taught to. You haven't had free will for quite a... Oh, sorry. You only walk and speak because everyone around you when you were a little baby did so. Way to go with the crowd, sheep, how un-free of you.
Sorry, defining "suggestions" as in any way contrary to "free will" is just too dumb.



JaapDaniels said:


> no hetero will ever out of free will give up hetero sexuality, what proof do you have gay do?


Clearly you haven't heard about all those "coming-outs" among celebrities. Boosts your popularity like woah, people talk about you again and you even get to be a victim of some horrible things, which nowadays means you're right in everything you say for some reason. I wouldn't be so sure there's not a single hetero star who only "came out" for another five minutes in the spotlight.
But to be fair I'm not gonna claim that's impossible. Unlike your "priests are lying" thing, I ain't judging without a reason to. I just have my doubts is all, that's a popularity-based brutal business, sink or swim, people do desperate things in showbiz to get a single article about them float to the online surface for a moment.

But that's all a digression, sorry. Outside of stories from homosexuals who wish to change, who wish to be able to properly marry, have children, create a healthy family and yes, avoid the temptations they seem as wrong - I have no proof there's any such a homosexual out there. You got me, champ, right from that "being gay is never considered a problem by gay people" bubble of yours.



JaapDaniels said:


> not being able to connect with your inner self is worse then anything.


Wow, we actually agree there. Of course I think that homosexuality is the "connection disruptor", while you think it is the "inner self"... But still, common ground to start out from. We found it after all.



JaapDaniels said:


> i was blind for the destruction of religious thinking when i was young.
> but hell it distroyed much lives, lives that meant the world to me.
> and it's still taking lives around me i care for...
> lives going to waste just because of a myth...
> ...


I do not see how any of these tragedies were caused by Christianity. And before you label me as an unreasonable, heartless bastard (if you haven't already), consider the following:


JaapDaniels said:


> 1 girl got raped for helping building a christian school in nigeria (muslims around wanted to stop it for they were scared for the religion.


if you want to build a school for poor, uneducated people, that's a noble thing to do. The fact it was a Christian school was because the girl, I assume, believed that it was best to also teach about Christ. the wrongdoers in this case were the rapists, Muslims as you admitted (prepare to be banned for islamophobia, you don't get to state "hateful facts" like that any more) - and they were the enemies of Christianity. Like you, not that I'd ever believe you'd act the same way. So yes, it was their religion that motivated a horrible act (never said I argued _all _religions are good, I hope you realise that much). It was Christianity that motivated a good one. I hope you're not saying "be a good person unless it's risky"?



JaapDaniels said:


> 3 girls i know got molested/ abused and can't ever really talk about it without getting in a firestorm of hate...


Can't even see where anything religious comes into play here. Right now we're seeing many cases where it's the men who can't defend themselves against women's accusations, including false ones, without getting into a firestorm of hate. But again, you haven't addressed what role religion played in those cases? All I'm gonna say is whoever is a part of that "firestorm of hate" (assuming it is hate) is not Christian.



JaapDaniels said:


> 2 girls i know are blamed themself for getting abused for they seemed asking for it the father from the church dared saying.


I'm not sure I understand. You mean they got abused by the clergyman or were they abused because they questioned what he was saying? Either way isn't okay and either way isn't Christian. Every reason you give for refusing Christianity is because someone called something that isn't Christianity "Christianity" and you didn't like that thing. Would you hate cats if you were attacked by a dog in early childhood and told that was a cat?



JaapDaniels said:


> 1 guy my age killed himself for he couldn't ever be himself with his parents and friends.


Well, okay, bad parents and bad friends are a staple of Christianity and Christianity exclusively. So is depression and self-doubt and all other psychological problems. Is there any doubt that Christianity is being supported and founded by the rich psychiatrists corporations?



JaapDaniels said:


> at least 3 girls i know are forced into mariage. not even my worst anemy should have such a life.


Okay, that surely isn't Christians you're talking about. Sounds more like Islam to me. Either way, another anecdotal evidence that proves "people can be assholes" rather than "religion makes people assholes". And you don't have to prove people can be assholes, that's a well-known fact. That's why we have standards by which to judge others' and our own actions and choices, so that we avoid becoming total assholes beyond redemption. Standards like the Judeo-Christian ones that the Western civilisation is based on?



JaapDaniels said:


> sorry it hurts to see the price each day.


I have no doubt it does. I don't know how much control you have in these situations, but guess what actual Christianity - as opposed to what you've called Christianity - would recommend? Being the person who stands _with_ the victim in that firestorm of hate. Being the friend that homosexual self-doubting person _can_ openly talk to. Cheering people up, supporting them - not all their actions, not all their beliefs and not all their choices - but people. I hope you'll find some real Christians eventually. Or that you notice them if they're already around.

EDIT: Okay, just realised that sounded like I equate "real Christians" with "good people" or even claim the latter are most common in the former group. Not what I meant. in fact, the best Christian will be the first one to reject being called "a good Christian". By "real Christians" I meant not good people, but people who believe in Christianity - not just believe that they believe in Christianity. True belief will inevitably manifest itself in actions - not without effort and not without many failures. But it will be visible. It's like a difference between "fan" and "fanboy". One really loves a game/show/etc - the other just loves loving it.


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## invaderyoyo (Oct 15, 2018)

Christianity and other religions are incredible. They can get otherwise reasonable adults to believe outlandish claims like an omnipotent sky daddy that sees and knows everything without anything even slightly resembling evidence.

It really is amazing.


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## kumikochan (Oct 15, 2018)

invaderyoyo said:


> Christianity and other religions are incredible. They can get otherwise reasonable adults to believe outlandish claims like an omnipotent sky daddy that sees and knows everything without anything even slightly resembling evidence.
> 
> It really is amazing.


Especially when the new rover lands on Mars to look at those rocks that have traces that do seem to be bacteria in it. When the new rover lands that has more equipment on it to see if there are bacteria in the soil around those rocks and the rocks itself plus also taking a sample from that ice formation well that would proof all holy books are bullshit since if you can find life in your own solar system and it has spouted more then once in a singular solar system that would mean the universe is teeming with life.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 15, 2018)

invaderyoyo said:


> Christianity and other religions are incredible. They can get otherwise reasonable adults to believe outlandish claims like an omnipotent sky daddy that sees and knows everything without anything even slightly resembling evidence.
> 
> It really is amazing.


The ancients have talked about these things for thousands of years and meant it in a literal and not a mythological way. It may not be a "omnipotent sky daddy" but we may have been produced by a different race of beings. Anything is possible.


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## eworm (Oct 15, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> Especially when the new rover lands on Mars to look at those rocks that have traces that do seem to be bacteria in it. When the new rover lands that has more equipment on it to see if there are bacteria in the soil around those rocks and the rocks itself plus also taking a sample from that ice formation well that would proof all holy books are bullshit since if you can find life in your own solar system and it has spouted more then once in a singular solar system that would mean the universe is teeming with life.


Dude. If Christianity claimed humans were the only life, my cat would be able to disprove it by existing. Christianity doesn't claim we're "alone in the universe" (on contrary, it claims we're never alone), so I'm not sure you have the right arguments. Not for this conversation that is.


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## kumikochan (Oct 15, 2018)

eworm said:


> Dude. If Christianity claimed humans were the only life, my cat would be able to disprove it by existing. Christianity doesn't claim we're "alone in the universe" (on contrary, it claims we're never alone), so I'm not sure you have the right arguments. Not for this conversation that is.


It does claim that. It even claims the earth is the center of the universe so please back off with your religious bullshit


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## eworm (Oct 15, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> It does claim that. It even claims the earth is the center of the universe so please back off with your religious bullshit


Sorry. As a Christian, I was wrong to think I knew better what it is I believe than a random atheist on the Internet whose best answer to a factual correction is calling the other person's statement "bullshit".
...
How dare you use her as your avatar, whoops, did I just type that out loud!


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## kumikochan (Oct 15, 2018)

eworm said:


> Sorry. As a Christian, I was wrong to think I knew better what it is I believe than a random atheist on the Internet whose best answer to a factual correction is calling the other person's statement "bullshit".
> ...
> How dare you use her as your avatar, whoops, did I just type that out loud!


That's the thing with you religious nutjobs. Everybody else is always wrong and ur only correct. Even when science proves it differently you come out with bullshit stories claiming it is a misinterpretation suddenly or that it's false. Just like Christians claimed the earth was the center of the universe wich it is not and that the sun turns around the earth wich it also doesn't. You also claim evolution is false and that there is no such thing as evolution even while their being tons of evidence shoved right at your faces. Even that stupid trinity story doesn't make sense. Jezus is god and so is god at the same time but so is the holy spirit at the same time. They're all their own thing and own person but they're also the same god


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## koyuki38 (Oct 15, 2018)

Not better than any other, except they stop killing people while some maybe should try to stop too.


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## tri_fin (Oct 15, 2018)

I am sorry if this has been mentioned but I did read alot of posts and didn't see it at all...

Christianity seems to give man dominion over animals (and the world). This is totally out of line.


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## eworm (Oct 15, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> That's the thing with you religious nutjobs. Everybody else is always wrong and ur only correct.


I said you're incorrect about what Christianity says. I haven't touched the Earth or evolution or anything - only said you have a wrong definition of my religion. Which you do, this is not a statement of belief, this is a fact. Saying "you're wrong about dogs walking on two legs" is not me forcing my belief on you or claiming superiority. It's me correcting your mistake.

An argument can be wrong in three ways. Either the terms are used vaguely/incorrectly or the beginning argument starts with a false premise or the conclusion it reaches doesn't actually logically follows from the premises. You've made all three mistakes.
You've defined Christianity as something which couldn't be further from Christianity - a belief system that includes and even relies on there being no extra-terrestial life. You're also saying Christianity claims evolution is false and that Earth is the middle of the universe. None of that is true, and that counts as both a wrong definition and a false premise. Finally, you make a leap in logic between "Christianity is wrong about scientific facts (how the universe works)" and "therefore Christianity is wrong about everything else it preaches". One does not follow from the other.

Now, if you're not interested in a discussion, you're free to say so and leave. But it's in rather poor taste to stick around only to throw half-baked insults at something important for others and then, when they ask you to explain yourself, rely on "it's just bullsh*t because it is, you're an idiot if you don't see it, why do you claim to know everything better".


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## Deleted User (Oct 15, 2018)

I've always thought that Christianity was a religion created to control the masses. Nowadays it doesn't work to the same scale as in the past, but now I find it to be more like an escapegoat for people that are too afraid to face life and become the gods themselves by pushing through their limits, both mentaly and phisicaly.
I'm not going to say that gods do or do not exist, but if they do, why not give us a little hand sometimes by stopping tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc? Oh wait, it's their divine plan!


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## kumikochan (Oct 15, 2018)

eworm said:


> I said you're incorrect about what Christianity says. I haven't touched the Earth or evolution or anything - only said you have a wrong definition of my religion. Which you do, this is not a statement of belief, this is a fact. Saying "you're wrong about dogs walking on two legs" is not me forcing my belief on you or claiming superiority. It's me correcting your mistake.
> 
> An argument can be wrong in three ways. Either the terms are used vaguely/incorrectly or the beginning argument starts with a false premise or the conclusion it reaches doesn't actually logically follows from the premises. You've made all three mistakes.
> You've defined Christianity as something which couldn't be further from Christianity - a belief system that includes and even relies on there being no extra-terrestial life. You're also saying Christianity claims evolution is false and that Earth is the middle of the universe. None of that is true, and that counts as both a wrong definition and a false premise. Finally, you make a leap in logic between "Christianity is wrong about scientific facts (how the universe works)" and "therefore Christianity is wrong about everything else it preaches". One does not follow from the other.
> ...


All of that is true. Even the previous pope said it himself that evolution is false. Yes Christianity did claim earth was the center of the universe and that the sun goes around earth and not the other way around. Yes the trinity doesn't make sense at all because god, jezus and the holy spirit are all a different entitity but they're also the same entity being god.


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## invaderyoyo (Oct 15, 2018)

PanTheFaun said:


> The ancients have talked about these things for thousands of years and meant it in a literal and not a mythological way. It may not be a "omnipotent sky daddy" but we may have been produced by a different race of beings. Anything is possible.


Sure, anything is possible, but not every possibility is worth a second thought.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 15, 2018)

invaderyoyo said:


> Sure, anything is possible, but not every possibility is worth a second thought.


That's your opinion. It may not be worth a second thought to you but it may be to others.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 15, 2018)

eworm said:


> Body telling you something is right means jack. When I'm angry my body will tell me smashing someone's face in might be good. _Rapists_ do what their bodies tell them is so right. I'm not saying all pleasure is wrong, all that's physical is sinful. Of course not, our bodies have the same inventor as our souls and they were designed as beyond amazing. But "listening" to them? I'd rather have my body rather than have my body have me, thank you.
> 
> Also, there is nothing about denying life or liberty or happiness in Christianity. Abortion is not life, hedonism is not liberty and pleasure is not happiness. Meanwhile sex is not "putting a thing in a thing for some rush", it's a life-creating act in which love joins two people into one body, sharing themselves with each other more than is otherwise possible, and sanctity joins childish fun without either losing anything of itself. If you think Christians believe sex to be sinful, think again, we have a much higher view of it than atheists. Of course you don't see any sense in installing an alarm system in a run-down shack - but we see a majestic temple full of riches instead.
> 
> ...



"Physical is sinful"
Is that why coveting goods and partners of others (both limited very much to the mind) form two of the commandments?

Back on topic conflating homosexuality with violence and rape is not a great look in an argument. Going further your body and your mind are very much related and I think you may have read the wrong interpretation into that.

Sex is not solely for procreation. It is noted in any number of animals for its bonding potential. Equally I am not seeing anything about not marrying infertile or old people, or indeed for them to get off scot free as they can't procreate. Similarly I don't know how you got to me thinking Christianity (specifically the flavour you appear to plump for -- there are many different interpretations, sometime I pondered in an earlier reply) considered sex to be sinful -- while there are some interpretations that do the more common one very much cares for it, just that it is done within specific confines. Similarly what view of sex do atheists have? If Christianity is anything but monolithic then atheism (merely the lack of a belief in gods) is noted for a complete lack of codified or generally accepted beliefs beyond the base definition already mentioned.

As far as non heterosexual couples producing kids of notable incidence rates of the negatives you mention then citation needed there, furthermore is it worse than single parentage or remarried... or any number of other things deemed acceptable? Courts and lawmakers are generally very keen on preventing harms.

On your understanding of conception and genetics it differs rather from current science. On not changing then developmental copying errors might be a start, epigenetics another thing to look at.  Murder is unlawful killing, intention is part of it but the unlawful part is the main one. Life beginning at conception is a debatable concept as well. You also have the fun one of failure to implant (would that mean condoms are OK but morning after pill is not) and would you investigate every miscarriage as a murder?

Anyway it appears we have fundamentally different approaches to the world. We can try to thrash out a basis for a discussion if you want though historically it takes a while.


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## eworm (Oct 15, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> All of that is true. Even the previous pope said it himself that evolution is false. Yes Christianity did claim earth was the center of the universe and that the sun goes around earth and not the other way around. Yes the trinity doesn't make sense at all because god, jezus and the holy spirit are all a different entitity but they're also the same entity being god.


Ptolemy's "Almagest", a classic astronomy book that's been used throughout the Middle Ages included Earth being a comparatively insignificant point in the universe. People had already known about Earth not being the outer space's focal point in the times of Dante, St. Augustine, Thomas Acquinas and more. What do you know, these big Christian thinkers had no problem fitting this scientific fact, the one that's later become supposedly so "problematic" to religion and such a shutdown answer to Christianity. It almost like Christianity cares not about astronomy, huh.

Evolution was not claimed to be false. The Pope said it is a scientific theory with some validity to it. And that's exactly what it is, nothing more, nothing less. It's a theory about how the changes in the organisms could have changed across time. But then it became the religion of "EVERYTHING works in this particular way". Our brains, our societies, our laws, it's all based on the "adaptability" mechanic. Sure, a lot of it makes sense, especially the biological stuff. But it's not a be-all, end-all answer. At most Christianity may say "it's a theory, not a confirmed fact" and "it doesn't and shouldn't claim to answer any questions fro outside its stated field - live organisms' changes across time" and "it doesn't have all the answers" and especially "like anything scientific, it will provide no 'why', only 'how's". If that's "believing evolution isn't real", well, I guess you've scored a point.

The Trinity doesn't make sense? Would a cube make sense to a 2D being? Try to explain that one. I mean, it's made of squares, you know what those are, but they are connected with each other and create a bigger shape... No, no, the squares' lines don't cross, they meet at the ends... No, seriously, that's what 3D means, it's not "impossible". 
If God made sense to our little human brains, it would be a very disappointing God. I would doubt such a God could've been the Creator of all things in the first place. After all, a character in the story is no more capable of writing the sequel than they are of tearing the pages their story's printed on. But Jesus was somewhat of an author cameo, except in a more real way than any allegory could sufficiently express. Still, doesn't mean the Author wasn't "separate" in some way, while still being the same God.


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## kumikochan (Oct 15, 2018)

eworm said:


> Ptolemy's "Almagest", a classic astronomy book that's been used throughout the Middle Ages included Earth being a comparatively insignificant point in the universe. People had already known about Earth not being the outer space's focal point in the times of Dante, St. Augustine, Thomas Acquinas and more. What do you know, these big Christian thinkers had no problem fitting this scientific fact, the one that's later become supposedly so "problematic" to religion and such a shutdown answer to Christianity. It almost like Christianity cares not about astronomy, huh.
> 
> Evolution was not claimed to be false. The Pope said it is a scientific theory with some validity to it. And that's exactly what it is, nothing more, nothing less. It's a theory about how the changes in the organisms could have changed across time. But then it became the religion of "EVERYTHING works in this particular way". Our brains, our societies, our laws, it's all based on the "adaptability" mechanic. Sure, a lot of it makes sense, especially the biological stuff. But it's not a be-all, end-all answer. At most Christianity may say "it's a theory, not a confirmed fact" and "it doesn't and shouldn't claim to answer any questions fro outside its stated field - live organisms' changes across time" and "it doesn't have all the answers" and especially "like anything scientific, it will provide no 'why', only 'how's". If that's "believing evolution isn't real", well, I guess you've scored a point.
> 
> ...


You do know that in the middle ages everybody was forced being Christian. In fact if you weren't and denounced anything you would get killed so what your saying doesn't go with me. And no the trinity doesn't make sense at all.


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## ReigningSemtex (Oct 15, 2018)

I'm glad some people enjoy believing in it but it's not for me


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## Song of storms (Oct 16, 2018)

tri_fin said:


> I am sorry if this has been mentioned but I did read alot of posts and didn't see it at all...
> 
> Christianity seems to give man dominion over animals (and the world). This is totally out of line.


Because the rest of the animals in the animal kingdom cooperate in coexistence and don't kill, rape or ostracize other animals. Of course!

Out of all the retarded stuff that has been written here, this takes the cake.


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## eworm (Oct 16, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> As far as non heterosexual couples producing kids of notable incidence rates of the negatives you mention then citation needed there, furthermore is it worse than single parentage or remarried... or any number of other things deemed acceptable? Courts and lawmakers are generally very keen on preventing harms.


Not anymore. Now they're keen on preventing "offense" or "discrimination".
But yeah, single parentage being acceptable is your premise. Christianity doesn't deem it okay, especially not if it's due to one or both parents "splitting up". You do realise divorce doesn't exist in Christianity, right? Once married, it's "till death do you part" if not further. So yeah, if you take a look at Christianity and say "why is A wrong, if B is okay?" when B is not in fact "okay", your argument is not an argument.



FAST6191 said:


> Murder is unlawful killing, intention is part of it but the unlawful part is the main one.


This astonishes me. So in Nazi Germany, it was not "murder" to gas the Jews, it was "only" killing. Killing one's slaves wasn't murder either. If laws, man-made laws, determine morality, we are speeding up the road to hell.
And yes, the pro-abortion argument is the pro-slavery argument. As in "we decide who's a person and who isn't". Blacks weren't people, now it's unborn children. Who knows what's next.



FAST6191 said:


> Life beginning at conception is a debatable concept as well.


Not debatable, debated. Tell me when it is you believe life begins and why. I mean, you're pro-abortion, so you ARE sure you know where life begins. We're talking about possible murder, so anyone who isn't sure when it becomes a murder of a human person is either anti-abortion just "in case" or okay with killing innocent babies. You ain't got much wiggle room here.



FAST6191 said:


> You also have the fun one of failure to implant (would that mean condoms are OK but morning after pill is not) and would you investigate every miscarriage as a murder?


The morning-after pill is indeed not okay. Miscarriages aren't murder, they're deaths.

But look, all this stuff is secondary to the discussion. Christianity is not a moral code, it's not a system of laws. It is a belief about reality. At the end of the day, all the viewpoints come out of a single point, follow from the belief in a Three-Personal God, the Creator of the universe, the All-Knowing, All-Mighty Love whom humans turned away from, but He chased relentlessly, saved by becoming a human Himself and dying on the cross, thus paying back the price all humans in all of time sacrificing themselves willingly wouldn't match. The moment the conversation shifts to "is Christianity good?", the point is lost. Whether it's good or not (whatever that would mean) is secondary. You don't ask whether the theory of relativity is "good" but whether it's factual. You don't ask if electrons are good, only whether they exist. You don't ask whether the universe expanding is good, only whether it is true that it does.
The implementations, good or bad, come after establishing facts.


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## machinoman (Oct 16, 2018)

eworm said:


> Not anymore. Now they're keen on preventing "offense" or "discrimination".
> But yeah, single parentage being acceptable is your premise. Christianity doesn't deem it okay, especially not if it's due to one or both parents "splitting up". You do realise divorce doesn't exist in Christianity, right? Once married, it's "till death do you part" if not further. So yeah, if you take a look at Christianity and say "why is A wrong, if B is okay?" when B is not in fact "okay", your argument is not an argument.
> 
> 
> ...


 i will comment on when life begins, against my better judgement. why does life begin at conception, besides the biblical reasons? i like to start the clock at brainwaves personally, which starts at week 5/6, although i am one vagina short of qualified to tell a woman when life begins to her.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 16, 2018)

machinoman said:


> i will comment on when life begins, against my better judgement. why does life begin at conception, besides the biblical reasons? i like to start the clock at brainwaves personally, which starts at week 5/6, although i am one vagina short of qualified to tell a woman when life begins to her.


Just because you aren't a woman doesn't mean you aren't qualified to speak your opinion. Whether she agrees or not doesn't matter.


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## tri_fin (Oct 16, 2018)

Song of storms said:


> Because the rest of the animals in the animal kingdom cooperate in coexistence and don't kill, rape or ostracize other animals. Of course!
> 
> Out of all the retarded stuff that has been written here, this takes the cake.



Hiya, what do you mean? I think you may misunderstood my post. Or rather my post was unclear?

My point is that the bible and Jesus (and many religions) simply state; animals and the planet are there for man. 

To me animals indeed all living organisms are sentient life and with that comes, well to me at least, rights. 

ps By the way animals do all the things you mention and your post is rude.


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## Localhorst86 (Oct 16, 2018)

I have been baptised and therefore I was a catholic christian. While I received my First Communion, I do not believe in a god (and never did), therefore did not attend what roughly translates to "Firmation". While this already disqualified me from certain aspects of the catholic church (e.g: I am not allowed to marry in a catholic church, etc.), I never bothered to care about church or christianity. Until the first time I had to pay church tax, that is. That was the moment I decided to ex-communicate from church, I am therefore now without confession.

As for other people being christian: I don't really care, as long as they're not trying to use their christianity or beliefs to treat others disrespectful.

So in conclusion: I do not have a positive or negative opinion on christianity itself. I do have a (negative) opinion on certain christians, however.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 16, 2018)

PanTheFaun said:


> Just because you aren't a woman doesn't mean you aren't qualified to speak your opinion. Whether she agrees or not doesn't matter.


I don't like how this topic revolves around religion. "Because God" is the worst reason to have regarding this issue.
An unborn child is - biologically speaking - a parasitic human life that drains the physical resources of a woman. In that sense, she has indeed more say in the matter.
On the other hand, she has had sex and explicitly or implicitly consented to the creation of this human being (unless in the case of rape).

With the advance of medicine it might be possible to transfer an unwanted unborn child to a machine (it has already worked with animals apparently).
I'd love to know whether hardcore feminists still insist on the woman having a choice in the matter - if so, then it's no different from certain (religious) parents who believe they have the right to kill their BORN children.


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 16, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I don't like how this topic revolves around religion. "Because God" is the worst reason to have regarding this issue.
> An unborn child is - biologically speaking - a parasitic human life that drains the physical resources of a woman. In that sense, she has indeed more say in the matter.
> On the other hand, she has had sex and explicitly or implicitly consented to the creation of this human being (unless in the case of rape).
> 
> ...


I never said she didnt have more say. I said that he can share his opinion even if he isnt a woman. Whether she likes his opinion or not doesnt matter.


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## MRJPGames (Oct 16, 2018)

Christianity is basically just as toxic as any other religion. And just like any other religion it does a lot of good for people too. It can give them community, or make hard times in their lives easier. Believing in something that is not true can still be a good thing because of this. But I believe you don't need religion for this type of relieve or community, and because of all the toxicity it brings along with it I'd rather live in a world without religion than with.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 16, 2018)

Gaming can also give people community. 

BTW Christian fundamentalists like to talk about Satan a lot. As if he was as powerful (or almost as powerful) as God. This notion probably comes from the Persian influence. The Babylonian exile ended thanks to the Persians (who were tolerant and allowed the Jews to keep their traditions and return to the so-called holy land). The Persians (Zoroastrians) had a dualistic world view (good vs evil).


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## smf (Oct 16, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Your confusing GOD with Man made religion.



Surely the concept of God only exists within man made religions.

Do we have to prefix every statement with "I believe", or is there something magic about talking about God? Because I only ever say what I believe, but I can be wrong.


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## Searinox (Oct 16, 2018)

Hello, I was brought up in Christianity. My opinion of the religion is very bad.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 16, 2018)

eworm said:


> Not anymore. Now they're keen on preventing "offense" or "discrimination".
> But yeah, single parentage being acceptable is your premise. Christianity doesn't deem it okay, especially not if it's due to one or both parents "splitting up". You do realise divorce doesn't exist in Christianity, right? Once married, it's "till death do you part" if not further. So yeah, if you take a look at Christianity and say "why is A wrong, if B is okay?" when B is not in fact "okay", your argument is not an argument.
> 
> 
> ...



Divorce exists within most protestant takes, Eastern Orthodox, many non denominational takes and technically the pope can grant something akin to one for Roman Catholicism (though that is an exceptionally rare thing, more commonly annulments). http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/ritesrituals/divorce_1.shtml has a bit more.

Within their own framework then yes that would be so, by most international standards (see the trials that followed World War 2 and continue in various capacities to this day) not so much. Furthermore if I recall my high school religious studies then God allows the state in a given instance to rule so they do get to define things as well. Killing slaves depends where and when you are in history -- most Roman law says not OK.

I covered my position in the thread linked but the medical viability without serious intervention seems like a good line to draw for me. I usually go with preventing suffering. Equally I never said miscarriages were murder, I asked if you would investigate them as though they were potential ones?

Christianity, as much as it is any one thing (again there are hundreds of groups commonly with mutually incompatible interpretations, as such the term is a broad collective or a political one, especially in the US), very much seems to have a moral code embedded within it and as a fundamental aspect from everything I have seen. To that end the comparison with aspects of science seems pointless here.


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## Tigran (Oct 16, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> All of that is true. Even the previous pope said it himself that evolution is false. Yes Christianity did claim earth was the center of the universe and that the sun goes around earth and not the other way around. Yes the trinity doesn't make sense at all because god, jezus and the holy spirit are all a different entitity but they're also the same entity being god.



But it is ironic when you realize it makes God or Jesus *Which ever.. same guy* a literal Mother Fucker.


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## eworm (Oct 16, 2018)

machinoman said:


> i will comment on when life begins, against my better judgement. why does life begin at conception, besides the biblical reasons? i like to start the clock at brainwaves personally, which starts at week 5/6, although i am one vagina short of qualified to tell a woman when life begins to her.


It's not "biblical reasons", I said that it's because of the genetic code being created and finalized at conception.
And why does life begin at brainwaves, besides no reason given? A person can get into some tragic accident that may render them pretty much braindead. Do they stop being alive? Do they stop being a person? Can they be killed? - and I don't mean "are people allow to kill them", I mean "is it possible to do anything to them that would be 'killing'"? After all, it's not a life, right?



FAST6191 said:


> Divorce exists within most protestant takes, Eastern Orthodox, many non denominational takes and technically the pope can grant something akin to one for Roman Catholicism (though that is an exceptionally rare thing, more commonly annulments). http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/ritesrituals/divorce_1.shtml has a bit more.


"Something akin to a divorce", except completely not. Annulment is the recognition that marriage was not real, it didn't happen. It's not a civic marriage we're talking now, it's marriage as a special sacramental bond that God binds two willing people with. And the Church has the God-given power to recognize - not invent or make up, recognize - God's will. It has been determined that God is not willing to grant marriage - which, after all, carries with itself certain limits and responsibilities, not just "privileges" - to people who don't meet some specific conditions - the conditions that have to do with the aforementioned limits and responsibilities. So no, recognizing a marriage wasn't valid, wasn't real, is not nearly the same as "cancelling" a marriage.



FAST6191 said:


> I covered my position in the thread linked but the medical viability without serious intervention seems like a good line to draw for me. I usually go with preventing suffering.


Oh, I guess a dead person doesn't suffer any more (if you don't believe in the afterlife), so it makes a twisted, murderous kind of sense to call it "preventing suffering". Just don't try to prevent anyone's suffering yourself, we're still not progressive enough to make that legal.

Seriously, this is a good answer to your later point. Why would I claim Christianity is mostly about "what reality is" rather than a set of moral rules - exactly because you can't make good rules without knowing what reality is like. Whether or not abortion is good or evil depends entirely on whether that fetus, that zygote - is a human life. It's not a moral question - most of us agree on murder being real. But now we disagree on whether this specific thing is a murder or not. It's not a matter of knowing that you should stop your car on the road when a person suddenly walks onto the road - it's a matter of not being sure if that thing you're seeing is a person or not. Because only then will you apply the moral rules and act on them.
If something moved on the street in front of me and it was too dark to be sure if it was a fallen tree branch or a little kid - I would stop nonetheless. The basis premise for all pro-abortion arguments says I shouldn't.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 16, 2018)

Tigran said:


> But it is ironic when you realize it makes God or Jesus *Which ever.. same guy* a literal Mother Fucker.


Not really, Mary was not a mother prior to the event.


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## Leobgood (Oct 16, 2018)

The irony is strong in this thread. 

Much like the millionaire athletes, celebrities, politicians etc... 
who live in their exclusive neighborhoods and mansions, so divorced from reality, making their money from capitalism telling us how bad it is and how better off we would be under socialism/communism - Venezuela, Soviet Union, China.

So too those fanatics that want to destroy any belief system that is contrary to their own - again, Venezuela, Soviet Union, China, and now Europe.

And we are next.


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## Ratatattat (Oct 16, 2018)

Leobgood said:


> The irony is strong in this thread.
> 
> Much like the millionaire athletes, celebrities, politicians etc...
> who live in their exclusive neighborhoods and mansions, so divorced from reality, making their money from capitalism telling us how bad it is and how better off we would be under socialism/communism - Venezuela, Soviet Union, China.
> ...



Correct. 
Unfortunately those who demean religion do not understand that man is a carnivore with those instincts embedded. 
Human society needs controlling mechanisms to stay positive. The two major controlling mechanisms are Government and Religion. Yes it is true atrocities have been committed in the name of both, but those atrocities were always committed by the foxes hiding among the sheep and not the basic premise of the controlling mechanism. With out them there would be chaos. Yes there are individuals that of their own volition have overcome those instincts. But there are many who do not have that self imposed control. Even if there is no God mankind still needs one.


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## Jokey_Carrot (Oct 16, 2018)

I don't believe in anything because it doesn't affect my everyday life so I don't care


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## kumikochan (Oct 16, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Correct.
> Unfortunately those who demean religion do not understand that man is a carnivore with those instincts embedded.
> Human society needs controlling mechanisms to stay positive. The two major controlling mechanisms are Government and Religion. Yes it is true atrocities have been committed in the name of both, but those atrocities were always committed by the foxes hiding among the sheep and not the basic premise of the controlling mechanism. With out them there would be chaos. Yes there are individuals that of their own volition have overcome those instincts. But there are many who do not have that self imposed control. Even if there is no God mankind still needs one.


Religion doesn't save society, it causes the destruction of society. I don't know if you have been following the history of Europe but most countries that got destroyedm the pain and suffering of people and so forth was all in the name of religion and to this day forth is still happening thanks to religion seeing the many terror attacks in the name of Islam and so forth. I find it quite funny that it has ALWAYS been religion that caused so many pain, suffering and wars and people here claim that it saves societies ? Don't make me laugh, religion is hardly a good thing and if there wasn't any religion to begin with we as a society on earth would have come much further then the point we are at now seeing religion always blocked progress to try to cling on the power they had. They always blocked progression, revolution just to keep those holy asswhipes in power. I guess you also never heard of stories of your grandmother how kids all got abused by nuns and whipped almost to death in boarding schools where every kid had to go to because the church DEMANDED  it. Yeah religion keeps society together cough cough cough


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 16, 2018)

eworm said:


> Yes, let's assume that most of what we hear from people are lies. That's not gonna cause any problems in our society or even our personal lives. But of course you didn't mean that. You're probably lying about not believing in God. I mean, it's guilty until proven innocent, right?
> 
> Secondly, I'm not talking for anyone. I said so before. My argument isn't "all priests are celibate" - my argument is "all Catholic priests are supposed to be celibate and that's not a bad thing". Another is "it is best only to have sex with your spouse". You haven't addressed either thing here.
> 
> ...


first one first: no i'm not talking all priest are cheating, but i have been in a "klooster" (sorry i don't know the english word for it), and well from all that i met just only one didn't know the feeling.
second one: no i never talked about mind control, just that god uses blackmail to keep people who're willing to leave faith in the group, and make them do a lot o things that are in contradiction to thier own will. this by: warning about the other afterlife, telling the rest of the group that those who leave are the deamons among us and sepparating so fammilies that once where a pack. 
blackmail is a powerfull weapon of god, and if that fails, then there's allways been the stone anyone who take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. i can go on this list but i doubt you ever read the book yourself, then again there's not just one bible, but there are tons of different bibles, and they contradict themselves over and over.
third one: what village do you live? since it's against about any law to tell people that they got served hell on earth for not buying the hamburger of the day.
fouth one:  you really see a celebritty as normal person down your street? gosh, that explains the lack of checking facts.
fifth one: what is that claim remove that one now! for really it makes me mad! there's no way there's anything we've got common from this point on...
sixth one: why do you chance my words when it is in your favour? i said religion when i mean all religions, and christians when i mean christians.
seventh one: it's really shamefull you talk about your relligion is better, since it distoyed a lot more lives then the one you claim to be bad.
eighth one: no you didn't understand it that was clear in your first post. it comes back to the blackmailing part.
ninth one: read your book again for when the bible calls rape/abuse rape/abuse. it'll tell you girls are responsible for sex when they didn't scream for help (wich is to be heard by at least 2 people other then the victem or predator), for when they didn't say no for at least 3 times,
tenth one: no okay the parents are a bit to blame, but the church was the one thing that kept popping up about doom and hell (wich looked legit when you never really test the teachings if you're hetero sexual), this is hard to those who don't have the brain power to search for truth more then the pries and bible telling me so it must be truth.
yes i'hold them responsible for failing to try and see the story from his side at least ones. the priest and writer of the hatefull parts, let's just say it's a shame i know there's no hell for them.
eleventh one: christian and it's as common as in islam.
twelfth one: you really are pushing right? it's a joke i assume? well if there is hell see you there, no way around it!


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## Leobgood (Oct 16, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> Religion doesn't save society, it causes the destruction of society. I don't know if you have been following the history of Europe but most countries that got destroyedm the pain and suffering of people...seeing the many terror attacks in the name of Islam...Yeah religion keeps society together cough cough cough


What!? You are comparing Christianity and by extension all religions to a 14th century political ideology bent on killing all non-believers. Wow! Well you know there's no stopping those Buddhist terrorists or those damn Amish with their hordes of death mauling machines.


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## kumikochan (Oct 16, 2018)

Leobgood said:


> What!? You are comparing Christianity and by extension all religions to a 14th century political ideology bent on killing all non-believers. Wow! Well you know there's no stopping those Buddhist terrorists or those damn Amish with their hordes of death mauling machines.


That was Christianity and i even gave modern day examples how Religion is bad with the boarding schools and the constant abuse and raping kids and islamic terrorists constantly terrorizing people over the world. You claiming religion saves society is a load of bullshit because it NEVER has. It only blocked progression and science to keep those holy asswhipes in power, it constantly terrorized people in Europe and was mostly the cause of a lot of wars in Europe, it forced people to become christian and if not you were called a heretic and died horrible because of that. A society never ever have been better of thanks to religion but most countries without are better off now. And if you do want to claim that society is better off with religion then please do give me one society where people were happy, there wasn't lingering darkness and corruption behind the scenes of religious nutjobs and that kept society better as a whole together. I'm pretty sure you can't give me any. And don't claim it only happened in the 1400's. Tons of pastors in Belgium alone had to go to court because they raped little boys and so did nuns with the constant beating of kids in boarding schools


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## Leobgood (Oct 16, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> That was Christianity and i even gave modern day examples how Religion is bad with the boarding schools and the constant abuse and raping kids and islamic terrorists constantly terrorizing people over the world. You claiming religion saves society is a load of bullshit because it NEVER has. It only blocked progression and science to keep those holy asswhipes in power, it constantly terrorized people in Europe and was mostly the cause of a lot of wars in Europe, it forced people to become christian and if not you were called a heretic and died horrible because of that. A society never ever have been better of thanks to religion but most countries without are better off now. And if you do want to claim that society is better off with religion then please do give me one society where people were happy, there wasn't lingering darkness and corruption behind the scenes of religious nutjobs and that kept society better as a whole together. I'm pretty sure you can't give me any. And don't claim it only happened in the 1400's. Tons of pastors in Belgium alone had to go to court because they raped little boys and so did nuns with the constant beating of kids in boarding schools


I am truly sorry that those abuses happened to you at the hands of religious people. It is wrong and inexcusable. Unfortunately bad things happen to good people. Anyone who has lived life has gone through hardships. Stay strong and don't let resentments hold you back from being the best person you can be everyday of your life.


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## kumikochan (Oct 16, 2018)

Leobgood said:


> I am truly sorry that those abuses happened to you at the hands of religious people. It is wrong and inexcusable. Unfortunately bad things happen to good people. Anyone who has lived life has gone through hardships. Stay strong and don't let resentments hold you back from being the best person you can be everyday of your life.


I never been abused but it happened with my grandmother and other older people i know in boarding schools but thanks anyway. Appreciate that


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## Ratatattat (Oct 16, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> Religion doesn't save society, it causes the destruction of society. I don't know if you have been following the history of Europe but most countries that got destroyedm the pain and suffering of people and so forth was all in the name of religion and to this day forth is still happening thanks to religion seeing the many terror attacks in the name of Islam and so forth. I find it quite funny that it has ALWAYS been religion that caused so many pain, suffering and wars and people here claim that it saves societies ? Don't make me laugh, religion is hardly a good thing and if there wasn't any religion to begin with we as a society on earth would have come much further then the point we are at now seeing religion always blocked progress to try to cling on the power they had. They always blocked progression, revolution just to keep those holy asswhipes in power. I guess you also never heard of stories of your grandmother how kids all got abused by nuns and whipped almost to death in boarding schools where every kid had to go to because the church DEMANDED  it. Yeah religion keeps society together cough cough cough



Try reading the whole statement next time. That might help. Pay particular attention to foxes., foxes, foxes.


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## kumikochan (Oct 16, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Try reading the whole statement next time. That might help. Pay particular attention to foxes., foxes, foxes.


So according to you a group can't be judged as a whole because of the many bad deeds the group did. You have to judge the group of the few that do good deeds. No thanks i'll be judging the group as a whole and if according to you that is generelazing then so be it. There isn't much good that Christianity has done over the ages and the many bad things it has done outweigh the good. And if you want to brush off those bad deeds by calling them foxes well i find that quite ignorant and insulting for the many people who suffered under the tyrannic rule of Christianity


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## eworm (Oct 16, 2018)

You know, if people stopped making the fallacious equation of "Christians = Christianity", there would be no argument against Christianity in this thread.
A: "I value logic and self-honesty."
B: "Those are good values, you're a good person"
A: "Therefore, when I'm horny and I see an attractive woman, I rape her. Logically, my sexual urge exists for me to have sex and also, I'm not gonna be dishonest with myself about my urges"
B: "LOGIC AND SELF-HONESTY ARE RUINING SOCIETIES, DOWN WITH THOSE EXTREMISTS IDEOLOGIES!"

Christianity can be and is often misinterpreted. Most commonly due to (wilful) ignorance and lack of effort. Same can be said about any idea or motivation or goal or whatever. But no, if it's religion, we must destroy the entirety of it, not fix the mistakes people make about it.

I always make the same mistake. I see a discussion thread about Christianity and I jump at the opportunity to _discuss_ it, explain my points, listen to the opposing side and have some logic fun. But then it's always the same "Christianity leads to bad ergo Christianity bad". I doubt me saying "Mother Theresa did wonderful things, case closed, Christianity is good" would be convincing for the atheists - why should an "argument" from the same principle convince me? Not to mention an argument about Christianity causing evil things can't be an atheist argument. There is no objective "good" or "evil" without some kind of a supernatural law. So either you're saying "Christianity is awful, because it causes people to deny the societal standards" (so like abolishing slavery?) or you're saying "Christianity is awful, because it contradicts my own belief system" (which is inherently better because you say so).

Anyway. *"Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis*. A lightweight and fun, but intelligent and fairly thorough (albeit not exhaustive) introduction to what Christians actually believe and why. This guy used to be a dedicated atheist, but then he accepted the radical idea of actually considering ideas rather than rejecting them outright. I encourage my "opponents" to, if not actually consider the points in the book, at least familiarize yourself with them. It really does wonders to any discussion when the interlocutors know what the discussion is about.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 16, 2018)

I am familiar with the life and times of C.S. Lewis (dude that wrote the lion the witch and the wardrobe for others playing along at home). His tangling with Christianity (also of note this would be in the 30s and 40s that he was contemplating all this, while some is still relevant today it was very different times) being of some interest in all this.

My contention would be that Christianity (and for this I will use the broad term for it is mostly just fringe efforts like the unitarians that terribly differ in the broad strokes), and others religions which follow the same mould, are not benign and harmless, and if they were I would not put any time or effort into considering them. Instead the modes of thought they encourage (teaching your kids to believe in an unseen force that judges your character, and will remember for all time is not cool), things they argue for and things those claiming to follow the teachings of (seemingly with the broad support of fellow members and those deemed the guiding hands of the movement, not to mention with a baseline logical reading and common interpretation of words of their sacred texts which are deemed at least somewhat immutable and dictated/passed down by a perfect being) all make for something I find to be unpleasant and worth opposing. To "fix the mistakes" of it from where I sit would require it be altered at a fundamental level, such that it would be unrecognisable and probably deemed heretical to the present and past followers. Similarly while it does not discount it the times I have seen people attempt to justify or "correct" what appear to be logical readings of things are usually made such that any future interactions or attempts need to be heavily scrutinised, the classic ones being the status of the old testament in Christianity, and the nature of the hadiths in Islam.

"There is no objective "good" or "evil" without some kind of a supernatural law"
Are we doing the objective morality thing? Is it not possible to agree as a society on the principles it would like to live by and for those things to arise though discussion, observation and logic?


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 17, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> Religion doesn't save society, it causes the destruction of society. I don't know if you have been following the history of Europe but most countries that got destroyedm the pain and suffering of people and so forth was all in the name of religion and to this day forth is still happening thanks to religion seeing the many terror attacks in the name of Islam and so forth. I find it quite funny that it has ALWAYS been religion that caused so many pain, suffering and wars and people here claim that it saves societies ? Don't make me laugh, religion is hardly a good thing and if there wasn't any religion to begin with we as a society on earth would have come much further then the point we are at now seeing religion always blocked progress to try to cling on the power they had. They always blocked progression, revolution just to keep those holy asswhipes in power. I guess you also never heard of stories of your grandmother how kids all got abused by nuns and whipped almost to death in boarding schools where every kid had to go to because the church DEMANDED  it. Yeah religion keeps society together cough cough cough


While all of that is true, these things don't really threaten society. Terror attacks are usually committed against outsiders (Sunni vs Shia etc).
I'd say religion can cause suffering in society, but is the best way (other than nationalism) to maintain society. Look at the Jews. Their religion caused suffering by "inviting attacks" for not assimilating into other societies and all the rules can be interpreted as suffering, but it has saved the existence of that society (for thousands of years).


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 17, 2018)

eworm said:


> Christianity can be and is often misinterpreted. Most commonly due to (wilful) ignorance and lack of effort.


I understand your frustration. Christianity/Islam/etc. has two definitions: The world view (and yes, there are some basics in all sects of a particular religion) and the community that adheres to a religion (officially). Most people - me NOT included - don't find the distinction interesting (because it's too theoretical).
I think Christianity as an idea is both positive and negative (even though I do not believe in it). The most horrific theoretical aspect is hell. While it keeps people who believe in it from doing bad deeds, it also makes God the most evil villain in all of history/fiction. If you like, you can try to explain to us why that isn't the case.

There was a woman who killed her children because she wanted to save them from going to hell.
Either she goes to hell for this deed, i.e. has saved her children and accepted the punishment (which makes her into a Jesus figure, albeit a violent one), or she is repents and also goes to heaven -> a win-win situation (all three go to heaven).
How can one claim she did sth bad from a Christian perspective?


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## SG854 (Oct 17, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I understand your frustration. Christianity/Islam/etc. has two definitions: The world view (and yes, there are some basics in all sects of a particular religion) and the community that adheres to a religion (officially). Most people - me NOT included - don't find the distinction interesting (because it's too theoretical).
> I think Christianity as an idea is both positive and negative (even though I do not believe in it). The most horrific theoretical aspect is hell. While it keeps people who believe in it from doing bad deeds, it also makes God the most evil villain in all of history/fiction. If you like, you can try to explain to us why that isn't the case.
> 
> There was a woman who killed her children because she wanted to save them from going to hell.
> ...


I do wonder.... Let’s say humans discover how to extend life, even stop aging and death through medical research (which I think could be possible sometime in the future). How will this affect religious people that believe in an afterlife.

Let’s say Parents are religious, but their kids don’t believe in God out of their own freedom of choice, even though they grew up in a religious home.

Parents believe in an afterlife, but the kids don’t. The kids are guaranteed to choose to make themselves immortal with medical tech. Parents have a choice to become immortal to be with their kids, or not so they can die naturally through aging and go to heaven, which is a gamble because is heaven real or not?

What would be their choice? Because life extension is guaranteed with the facts and tech of that hypothetical future. But heaven is not garunteed. What gives them confidence it’s real other then I believe. All I have is a book of words. With thousands of other religions claiming the samething. It’s be with my kids on Earth or gamble with my life for a maybe.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 17, 2018)

Of course they would choose the sure bet. For the same reason you don't see "a lot" of terrorists among the 1,5 billion Muslims and not a lot of Christians who give up their wealth and follow Christ among the 2 billion Christians. -> They don't REALLY believe. They are deceiving themselves.

That said, your example is only theoretical. The sun does not burn forever and I don't see how life could escape the finality of the universe... or maybe the universe is eternal (always expanding and eventually collapsing and then expanding again) but that would mean there would be a restart at some point. So I don't see how actual eternal life for individuals could be achieved. At best, we could hope for billions of years.


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## SG854 (Oct 17, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Of course they would choose the sure bet. For the same reason you don't see "a lot" of terrorists among the 1,5 billion Muslims and not a lot of Christians who give up their wealth and follow Christ among the 2 billion Christians. -> They don't REALLY believe. They are deceiving themselves.
> 
> That said, your example is only theoretical. The sun does not burn forever and I don't see how life could escape the finality of the universe... or maybe the universe is eternal (always expanding and eventually collapsing and then expanding again) but that would mean there would be a restart at some point. So I don't see how actual eternal life for individuals could be achieved. At best, we could hope for billions of years.


Unless we figure out how to jump to different multiverses. Start in a young universe till it ends then jump to another.

But my example paints a point. Where is their confidence in their beliefs. They don’t have confidence. At best it’s a guess. They are wasting their life on a giant guess. Mabey they are wasting their time practicing the wrong religion. 

Would God be angry if you practice the wrong religion. Would he be angry if you got the religion right but practice it the wrong way. Which then means you can’t interpret religion however you want to. You have to interpret it however God want you to so you can practice it correctly. 

But then with all these senarios getting it the correct way is extremely hard. And this God not telling us anything makes it harder. It’s all just guess, guess, guess and hope for the best. Is God real who the F knows. And it’s all a waste of time just guessing when you could be wrong, all the effort wasted for nothing.


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## eworm (Oct 17, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I think Christianity as an idea is both positive and negative (even though I do not believe in it). The most horrific theoretical aspect is hell. While it keeps people who believe in it from doing bad deeds, it also makes God the most evil villain in all of history/fiction. If you like, you can try to explain to us why that isn't the case.


Is your parent a villain for trying to prevent you from making a bad choice but giving you the freedom to do so?
This is the second biggest mistake about Christianity - *hell is not a punishment*. It was pictured that way due to being the consequence of disobeying the almighty God. But that's all it is - a consequence. You're not "punished" by someone when you get shocked after sticking a metal fork in the electrical socket. You just get the natural consequence. And it's even worse than that, because since Jesus *nobody goes to hell against their will*. But the Heavenly happiness (the one and only real happiness in the long run) requires one to be a certain type of person. Loving, humble, patient, responsible, magnanimous, etc - and what will an angry, proud, impatient, irresponsible, greedy person see when they reach Heaven? They will likely not even recognize happiness - it's "impossible" to be happy while constantly helping others, it's "impossible" to be happy when you're never the focus of attention, it's "impossible" to be happy when you can't have more stuff than others, it's "impossible" to be happy in Heaven unless you've "trained" yourself to chase real happiness.

And that's what our lives here on Earth are. By straining to be good people (not to be recognized as good people, but to actually be good people), we will gradually become better. You are what you do. By forgiving others even when you feel like punching their heads in, you're becoming a little more forgiving. By abstaining from some pleasure for the sake of another person, you're becoming a little more selfless. Every such victory is giving your "team" a stronger position to defend themselves against the enemy - and every little surrender gives some of your territory to the enemy. The objective - drive away the occupying forces and free the real you.



FAST6191 said:


> My contention would be that Christianity (and for this I will use the broad term for it is mostly just fringe efforts like the unitarians that terribly differ in the broad strokes), and others religions which follow the same mould, are not benign and harmless, and if they were I would not put any time or effort into considering them. Instead the modes of thought they encourage (teaching your kids to believe in an unseen force that judges your character, and will remember for all time is not cool) (...) I find to be unpleasant and worth opposing.


Okay, hold on.
Believing in a force that judges your actions. That's wrong? I suppose parents shouldn't tell their kids what to do or not, the government shouldn't try to create any laws for its citizens and we should absolutely not believe in things being "good" or "evil", because that just leads directly to our judging other people. And nobody should ever feel judged. We're already judging ourselves too - and we're horrible judges. You willing to criticize self-awareness and self-criticism the same way? Conscience and reason?

Your premise is confusing. Isn't it better to believe that the one you're gonna be judged by is an all-knowing and all-loving God who knows even better than you do what led to your choices, what your biggest weaknesses are, what your experiences were, what state of mind you were under at any time, what motivations guided your actions an what temptations you were subjected to? You can't just take from Christianity "God is gonna judge you" and criticize that in isolation, while leaving aside the "it's a God who loves you more than you can imagine" and "it's a God who knows all about you" and "it's a God who has already died in order for your actions to avoid fair punishment". Context required.

If believing in someone knowing all you've done and judging it scares you, that says a lot about you. Now don't get me wrong, unless it's laziness and hedonism speaking, it's not an incorrect state of mind to be in. We are all sinners, we all make countless mistakes, big and small, and we all fail even when we try our best to be good people. But then don't blame the judge, especially one that's always next to you offering to help, especially one who's taken your punishment upon Himself already. Don't blame yourself either - just get up and try again. And accept His outstretched hand.



FAST6191 said:


> "There is no objective "good" or "evil" without some kind of a supernatural law"
> Are we doing the objective morality thing? Is it not possible to agree as a society on the principles it would like to live by and for those things to arise though discussion, observation and logic?


Nope. I've already pointed out that slavery was an agreed-on thing. So was the extermination of Jews in a certain part of our society. So is treating women as men's property or killing homosexuals in Islamic countries. According to what you just said, these things can't be "wrong" or "evil", because that's the principles their society agreed on. That's their pejorative and we have no right to interfere in any way.
You say we can find the proper principles to live by via logic. I sort of agree - in the sense that we can find God through logic and He's the source of the right principles. But I assume you mean it's enough to find out what principles lead most efficiently to "survival of the species" or "equality of all people" or "health" or whatever. Guess what, you're making an assumption, a "moral objectivist's" assumption that those things are what we should be striving for (due to being "good") or that those are the reasons for humanity's existence, thus assuming that humanity's existence is a "good" thing and/or a "purposeful" thing. I'm not arguing with this, nor am I agreeing with all of it, but logic itself can't exist without at least an assumption that an objective Truth exists and is good. Bam, morality strikes again, because it's embedded in the universe more closely than time or space.

Do you believe in _anything_ supernatural, that is things outside or _from_ the outside of the "natural", time-constrained, space-constrained, physical world?


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 17, 2018)

eworm said:


> Is your parent a villain for trying to prevent you from making a bad choice but giving you the freedom to do so?


If the consequence is ETERNAL suffering, yes!
Since I do not know that God exists and that I need to believe certain things or do certain things in order to go to heaven, it's actually like a parent letting a baby crawl out of the window. But even then, the consequences would be finite.



eworm said:


> This is the second biggest mistake about Christianity - *hell is not a punishment*. It was pictured that way due to being the consequence of disobeying the almighty God. But that's all it is - a consequence. You're not "punished" by someone when you get shocked after sticking a metal fork in the electrical socket. You just get the natural consequence. And it's even worse than that, because since Jesus *nobody goes to hell against their will*.


Then why did Jesus say that the way to heaven is narrow (i.e. most go to hell)? And that it's better to cut off your own body parts than to be tempted to sin?

Are the prisons in your country there to punish people who commit crimes? What if the criminal doesn't want to go to prison? They still have to go, right? It's called punishment.
And since hell is eternal, God punishes people eternally. Creatures are not eternal by themselves, i.e. God must keep them alive in order to punish them.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 17, 2018)

eworm said:


> Okay, hold on.
> Believing in a force that judges your actions. That's wrong? I suppose parents shouldn't tell their kids what to do or not, the government shouldn't try to create any laws for its citizens and we should absolutely not believe in things being "good" or "evil", because that just leads directly to our judging other people. And nobody should ever feel judged. We're already judging ourselves too - and we're horrible judges. You willing to criticize self-awareness and self-criticism the same way? Conscience and reason?
> 
> Your premise is confusing. Isn't it better to believe that the one you're gonna be judged by is an all-knowing and all-loving God who knows even better than you do what led to your choices, what your biggest weaknesses are, what your experiences were, what state of mind you were under at any time, what motivations guided your actions an what temptations you were subjected to? You can't just take from Christianity "God is gonna judge you" and criticize that in isolation, while leaving aside the "it's a God who loves you more than you can imagine" and "it's a God who knows all about you" and "it's a God who has already died in order for your actions to avoid fair punishment". Context required.
> ...


You can believe in an omnipotent sky daddy if you want, bit silly if you ask me. Teaching your kids such a thing exists is a bigger problem for me. None of that precludes... more corporeal methods of rule making and enforcement.

Nope, I like human judgement. If such an omnipotent being exists and feels like giving it a punt (though being infinite such a thing would be trivial... such the is the nature of such things) then so be it. To believe in such a thing and live life according... no thanks, not to mention I have no evidence of such a thing (can we spare us the pascal's wager/gambit discussion, for if nothing else there are thousands of mutually incompatible gods written down and infinite number if I fire up the god generation algorithm).

I believe slavery is mentioned in the bible, new testament at that in case we are dealing with the selectively permeable old testament. None of that is "free the poor cunts" either. Anyway some failures does not mean total failure in all instances, as I believe you have spent some time trying to get people to consider in this. Different countries have different laws and such, current modes of diplomacy grant them sovereignty within their borders too. One can still judge another country or their laws according to a set of principles if you want. I am not sure how you get to within my logic that one can't look down upon such things.
Yes defining a moral code is a hard problem, possibly one of the hardest to develop a complete framework. For a baseline though I go with "pain, not pleasant best not to cause it in myself and by similar token doing it to another better have a mightily good reason probably based on said same. Depriving someone of their resources causes pain or a slightly more abstract version of it, that is part 2. Both of these can be observed in nature as well if you want". From here we can probably jump to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" as a more useful one. This gets me places far faster than reading a translated copy of a thousands of years old book.


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## Kallus (Oct 17, 2018)

I don't mind Christianity at all. The only time I don't really like it is when some of my more religious family members try to convince me I was going to go to hell if I didn't go to church with them. Other than them, other Christians I've met are very nice and respectful people.


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## iMythD (Oct 17, 2018)

On par with cancer. Has bought me nothing but pain and sorrow in my life.


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## Subtle Demise (Oct 17, 2018)

eworm said:


> *nobody goes to hell against their will*.


Not really true. What happens to people who are born in some remote village in Africa who will never even _hear_ of Jesus, let alone believe in him and follow his teachings? I know that's what missionaries are for, but if their words never make it to that village, who's fault is it really? What about extremist theocracies where the state mandated religion is the only way of life for everyone living there? What about babies who die? Or kids in general who die before they reach the mental capacity to follow a religion? The mentally handicapped? My ex-grilfriend's Baptist preacher said that babies automatically go to heaven because they haven't sinned, but the Bible says we are born sinners.


eworm said:


> Believing in a force that judges your actions. That's wrong? I suppose parents shouldn't tell their kids what to do or not, the government shouldn't try to create any laws for its citizens and we should absolutely not believe in things being "good" or "evil", because that just leads directly to our judging other people. And nobody should ever feel judged. We're already judging ourselves too - and we're horrible judges.


The thing is, morality, like science, is always changing and evolving as we make new discoveries, or when new generations don't like how the last generation did things. There really is no absolute, as what is consodered moral can vary wildly from circumstance to circumstance. For instance, almost everyone agrees that killing someone else is bad, but you have to consider cases like self-defense, defending others, being in a war, or the death penalty. Many people can't agree on whether these are right or wrong, or even where you distinguish one from another. 

Even in religion, which is supposed to be absolute and unchanging, there are disagreements about morality. Traditional Baptists believe that women and girls wearing pants is sinful because it may cause the men and boys to lust after them and that anything other than the old traditional style hymnals is evil music, whether it is Christian or not. An Assembly of God church on the other hand is quite the opposite. They give hugs, and the congregation isn't quietly expected to dress in formal wear while attending. They also have no issue with any kind of music, as long as it praises God. 

As far as getting moral values from the Bible, how do you choose which of God's commands you're supposed to follow and which ones are ok to ignore? Are you willing to stone your child for misbehaving? If a man rapes your daughter are you willing to be paid off and then force her to marry the rapist? What about the Sabbath? Anyone still doing that one? Maybe the Amish, if even that. That's one of the top 10 rules too. My church actually taught that salvation could be lost if a person continued to sin and not repent. Basically, if you knowingly continue to commit the same sin over and over again and make no effort to change, asking for forgiveness isn't enough. If there is a divine judgement after death, I wonder how many people think they're safe even though they didn't discipline their children in the not at all cruel ways the Bible describes. I wanted to get into completely incosistent punishments (Lot's wife vs. his daughters for example), but this is long enough.


eworm said:


> Do you believe in _anything_ supernatural, that is things outside or _from_ the outside of the "natural", time-constrained, space-constrained, physical world?


There are plenty of strange things in this universe that I don't understand. Strange coincidences that would fool one into thinking someone is looking out for them too. I do feel however that modern science over the last few hundred years has assured me that at the very least, the multiple (yes multiple, and sometimes contradicting) creation stories in the Bible are false, or _at best _are symbolic and not a literal historic retelling.


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## The Real Jdbye (Oct 17, 2018)

Sure the bible has a lot of good things to live by, but I think you shouldn't need religion to be a good person.
I find the notion of "faith" kind of ridiculous, why would you believe in a God and believe all the things written in the Bible (or other religious material) if there is no proof or indication that any of it is actually real and a lot of science points to the opposite? And at the same time deny factually proven science just because it doesn't align with your religion of choice?
That being said I'm not denying the existance of such a deity, I just find it really hard to believe in something far fetched without proof. I'm a logical kind of guy.


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## eworm (Oct 17, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> You can believe in an omnipotent sky daddy if you want, bit silly if you ask me. Teaching your kids such a thing exists is a bigger problem for me.


Right... You can believe that falling off a skyscraper is dangerous or that you need to eat properly to stay healthy, but teaching it to kids? That's a problem. What if they actually follow such ludicrous advice!



FAST6191 said:


> Yes defining a moral code is a hard problem, possibly one of the hardest to develop a complete framework. For a baseline though I go with "pain, not pleasant best not to cause it in myself and by similar token doing it to another better have a mightily good reason probably based on said same. Depriving someone of their resources causes pain or a slightly more abstract version of it, that is part 2. Both of these can be observed in nature as well if you want". From here we can probably jump to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" as a more useful one. This gets me places far faster than reading a translated copy of a thousands of years old book.


If by "gets me places" you mean "makes me contradict myself wildly", sure. How's that "don't cause pain or deprive others of resources" thing working out for you when you argue for a genocide of little babies? Even if you were to argue "abortion only until pain can be felt", which is a very inconsistent line to mark the beginning of human life (the doctor gives you anaesthesia, you stop being a person), I'd at least call life a resource, a primary one.



Subtle Demise said:


> Not really true. What happens to people who are born in some remote village in Africa who will never even _hear_ of Jesus, let alone believe in him and follow his teachings? I know that's what missionaries are for, but if their words never make it to that village, who's fault is it really? What about extremist theocracies where the state mandated religion is the only way of life for everyone living there? What about babies who die? Or kids in general who die before they reach the mental capacity to follow a religion? The mentally handicapped? My ex-grilfriend's Baptist preacher said that babies automatically go to heaven because they haven't sinned, but the Bible says we are born sinners.


Um, the Bible also says God has delivered salvation upon us, freeing us from the consequences of our sins. I mean, fair mistake, you could've missed it, it's only _the very point_ of the Bible.
People who never heard of Jesus, be it Africans or little babies or whoever, go where we all go upon our Earthly deaths - in front of Him. Once again I repeat - He _knows_. He knows the circumstances, the experiences, the motivations, the temptations, the opportunities, the character of us all. Thus I would worry more about the people who have heard of Christ - and reject Him without consideration or for dishonest reasons. Not gonna open this letter, might be news I dislike. Let's pretend it didn't arrive, got lost on the way.



Subtle Demise said:


> The thing is, morality, like science, is always changing and evolving as we make new discoveries, or when new generations don't like how the last generation did things. There really is no absolute, as what is consodered moral can vary wildly from circumstance to circumstance. For instance, almost everyone agrees that killing someone else is bad, but you have to consider cases like self-defense, defending others, being in a war, or the death penalty. Many people can't agree on whether these are right or wrong, or even where you distinguish one from another


That's what I'm arguing - no, morality does not change. If morality was evolving and changing, it wouldn't be "like science". You'd have to argue that the world's rules are constantly changing and shifting, the physics now are different from the past physics and who knows whether we'll still have gravity in some hundred years. Our _understanding_ of the world changes, yes - by coming closer to or further away from a real, objective, static truth about the world. So do the moral principles we operate on the basis of can change by getting closer or further away from what Good really, objectively is.

As for some of your examples - morality of an act has long been divided into three elements (in some V century or so, by the Christian thinkers) of *action, motivation and circumstances*. An action, like killing, can have its own moral definition - in this case, it's wrong. An action can be done for right or wrong reasons. For example, to save someone's life. That's virtuous. And finally, the circumstances can also influence whether or not an action was right or wrong - shooting somebody who's about to rape a woman is different than murdering the owner of the house you just broke into. And while we do and should try to consider all of these in our laws and personal lives, only God has the full insight into all three of these elements. We can't always agree on whether something is morally vile or morally virtuous or neither. We can't always know the motivations of the person, often even if that person is ourselves. And we don't fully know what circumstances are or what influence on the punishment/reward they should have.


Again, why am I arguing about all of this. There is no reason to argue the results and consequences of God's existence without discussing that very existence first. I keep trying to go back to "is God real?" and all I'm getting in return is "Christianity isn't good". Hey, newsflash - you don't believe in "good" or "evil", apparently, only in opinions about things. If morality is not objective, your own argument against the _good_ in Christianity (even forgetting that it's irrelevant to the "_reality_ of God" question in the first place) is obliterated. It's no argument, it's an "I don't like it!" childish tantrum.

Let's try to eliminate your hypocritical moral outrage against Christianity from the discussion using a hypothetical. Let's say a new religion shows up and it says "God exists, He's a personal being - and He hates people". Would you then believe that religion? Because none of your arguments thus far seem to contradict God's _existence_, only His loving nature and/or His almighty nature and/or His three-personal nature. You're being heretics, but not atheists. Let's say a god exists, but is not like the Christian God outside of being personal. Why would you not believe in that one?


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## FAST6191 (Oct 17, 2018)

eworm said:


> Right... You can believe that falling off a skyscraper is dangerous or that you need to eat properly to stay healthy, but teaching it to kids? That's a problem. What if they actually follow such ludicrous advice!
> 
> 
> If by "gets me places" you mean "makes me contradict myself wildly", sure. How's that "don't cause pain or deprive others of resources" thing working out for you when you argue for a genocide of little babies? Even if you were to argue "abortion only until pain can be felt", which is a very inconsistent line to mark the beginning of human life (the doctor gives you anaesthesia, you stop being a person), I'd at least call life a resource, a primary one.
> ...



Eating right and falling from heights has quite demonstrable results and will work forever. Sky daddy promotes a line of thought I don't find to be healthy, much less to teach to undeveloped minds. As such your stuff is not analogous to my reading and thus falls flat here.

Where have I argued for a genocide of babies? The abortion thing (which again I would frame differently) is very much a selective process depending upon the needs and desires of the host. Equally I never said anything about pain for that -- you went there just now for that. I have always gone with viability, maybe with a proviso for the health of the host or likelihood of the parasite being able to lead a reasonable life. Perhaps rather than pain harms done would be better -- even if you have CIP or are loaded with anaesthetic then slicing you will still be a harm. 

Why would I believe it just because it is a thing? Equally how have I not been opting for atheism? If trying to demonstrate the suppositions for a god are logically inconsistent (or outright fallacy).


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 18, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> N My ex-grilfriend's Baptist preacher said that babies automatically go to heaven because they haven't sinned


If this is true, then killing babies is doing them a favor. Remember: If we don't kill them, they might be ETERNALLY suffering. Again, can a Christian explain how this isn't the case? A mother who killed her children because she didn't want them to go to hell? Isn't she smart or a self-sacrificing person?
By that logic, we should have one baby killer who kills a billion babies -> one billion go to heaven and only one person goes to hell.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 18, 2018)

eworm said:


> I keep trying to go back to "is God real?"


Why does God hide from us? I really want to know. This is an even bigger problem than the problem of evil.
I once believed in God (or at least hoped he existed), but I no longer do because I realize there is not a single evidence for his existence. It's strange how all the religions have started before the advent of cameras (I guess we laugh at Mormonism because it arrived so late to the party; basically the same claims as Islam but too close to our own history).
So now that I have rejected (?) God, I will go to hell? You just stated you would worry about me.
I've never had a Road to Damascus vision or any other supernatural thing happening to me. Why is God treating me differently? Oh, so he will judge me based on how much I knew? Well, I don't know he exists, nobody knows - so we all go to heaven then? Great! Except possibly you... since you seem to know he exists. Now I'm starting to worry about you.

So do you have any reason FOR his existence? I'd say this is a very good one against his existence.


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## eworm (Oct 18, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Why does God hide from us? I really want to know. This is an even bigger problem than the problem of evil.


He doesn't. There is a book that even describes His chase after humans, it's called a Bible. Better question would be why are _we_ trying to run from _Him_.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I once believed in God (or at least hoped he existed), but I no longer do because I realize there is not a single evidence for his existence.


Do you believe that Caesar conquered Gaulle in I century B.C.? Would you call that a historical fact? I assume you weren't there, you probably never held a single historical text or any physical remain that would prove it. Way to go, you only believe it because you've been told.
What's that? Even if you personally never had the evidence in your hands, it does exist? Texts that have been verified according to strict hermeneutical standards for example. In this era of the Internet it probably wouldn't be too difficult to read the reproductions yourself.
Hey, guess what has even more legitimacy based on those very same standards. The eye-witness accounts of Jesus and his actions. The only reason the New Testament is not treated widely as absolutely legit historical source, more legitimate than many other stuff we rely on for our historical knowledge, is because it contains miracles. Wow, way to bring your own bias to the evidence in order to dismiss it.
You don't believe Jesus was divine God made flesh is because you don't believe the texts. And you donn't believe the texts because you don't believe in miracles (like a divine God becoming human). That's not an "argument", that's a dog chasing its own tail. You're close, buddy, don't give up, it's gotta get tired someday.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It's strange how all the religions have started before the advent of cameras


Clearly you haven't heard of how divined "inclusivity", "equality", "diversity", "feminism", "politics" and countless others have become. One of the worst is "progress", a consequence of the "evolution faith". What is old is always worse than what is new, because the whole world revolves around naturally-occurring improvement. No steps back possible, any new ideology must be superior to that old stuff. Of course the same person to believe nature has been ruined by our industrial progress, our roads, our cities, our factories and it used to be much better in its wild, untouched state, but hey, that's doublethink for ya.
A person who doesn't believe in something, will believe in anything. It's human nature to seek something beyond this world, a meaning, a purpose, a source.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I've never had a Road to Damascus vision or any other supernatural thing happening to me. Why is God treating me differently? Oh, so he will judge me based on how much I knew? Well, I don't know he exists, nobody knows - so we all go to heaven then? Great! Except possibly you... since you seem to know he exists. Now I'm starting to worry about you.


You don't know if God exists - but unlike those African villagers you've mentioned before, you've had a lifetime in an environment that allows you to do research. The fact you're here proves you know of Jesus Christ, of at least some of the claims He made, of possible interpretations many people hold (though admittedly, it's got to you surprisingly twisted). And it doesn't seem to me like you're approaching them with an honest "okay, let's hear what this belief is about, really try to wrap my head around it before judging whether or not it might possibly be true". No, you're approaching what you clearly don't know that well with a pre-made certainty that you know best whether it's a hoax or not, a bunch of bullsh*t or the truth. I mean, this "obvious nonsense" has only been around for over two millennia, people have died for it, people have changed their lives due to it... And throughout all that time, none of these people have noticed what your superior intellect noticed - that it's very obviously stupid and can't be reasoned for (and thus can be dismissed). Wow. You sure you're an atheist? Because your claims make you more of a god.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 18, 2018)

eworm said:


> He doesn't. There is a book that even describes His chase after humans, it's called a Bible. Better question would be why are _we_ trying to run from _Him_.


I'm not trying to run from him. I've tried to find evidence for anything supernatural but failed so far.
There is a book that describes how God actually chose the Arabs as his favorite people. Why don't you believe in that book? Or any other religious book?



eworm said:


> Do you believe that Caesar conquered Gaulle in I century B.C.? Would you call that a historical fact? I assume you weren't there, you probably never held a single historical text or any physical remain that would prove it. Way to go, you only believe it because you've been told.


First of all, I do not believe it. I haven't done research into this event (if it took place). Winners write history so I would approach it as a skeptic. 
Whether or not this event took place may or may not be interesting. But being wrong about it doesn't cause eternal suffering. 



eworm said:


> The eye-witness accounts of Jesus and his actions. The only reason the New Testament is not treated widely as absolutely legit historical source, more legitimate than many other stuff we rely on for our historical knowledge, is because it contains miracles. Wow, way to bring your own bias to the evidence in order to dismiss it.


So do you believe Muhammad split the moon? Are you biased against it just because it is a miracle?
Of course miracle claims have to be investigated more carefully.
Eye-witness accounts of Jesus and his actions? There are none. Paul is not an eye-witness of Jesus' deeds. The gospels were most likely not written by eye-witnesses. 



eworm said:


> You don't believe Jesus was divine God made flesh is because you don't believe the texts. And you donn't believe the texts because you don't believe in miracles (like a divine God becoming human). That's not an "argument", that's a dog chasing its own tail. You're close, buddy, don't give up, it's gotta get tired someday.


Again, the same is true for u with regards to 99% of religious claims. You just make a biased exception for Christianity.
I don't believe Jesus is God made flesh because I have no reason to think that God exists. And you have failed to provide any so far. My understanding of the universe allows me to conceive of sth eternal. But that could be the universe itself. If there was no time "before" the universe, I can't even imagine a "before".
But I'm pretty s



eworm said:


> Clearly you haven't heard of how divined "inclusivity", "equality", "diversity", "feminism", "politics" and countless others have become.


More baseless assumptions. No wonder you believe in God. I know quite bit about it. It's a different topic.
Religious claims of God interfering in world politics and wars have - not surprisingly - become rare these days. Again, God must be hiding.



eworm said:


> You don't know if God exists - but unlike those African villagers you've mentioned before, you've had a lifetime in an environment that allows you to do research. The fact you're here proves you know of Jesus Christ, of at least some of the claims He made, of possible interpretations many people hold (though admittedly, it's got to you surprisingly twisted).


I didn't bring up African villagers. Almost all Africans believe in either the Christian or Muslim God. It's hopeless.
My research has been quite extensive, btw. No need to act superior,"buddy".



eworm said:


> And it doesn't seem to me like you're approaching them with an honest "okay, let's hear what this belief is about, really try to wrap my head around it before judging whether or not it might possibly be true". No, you're approaching what you clearly don't know that well with a pre-made certainty that you know best whether it's a hoax or not, a bunch of bullsh*t or the truth.


I've studied the claims extensively for many years and WANTED them to be true. I stopped self-deceiving myself at some point. There are people who dismiss claims right away, I'm not one of them.



eworm said:


> for over two millennia, people have died for it, people have changed their lives due to it


3 arguments with 0 weight!
-If age is of any relevance, Scientology will be true one day. Why aren't you a Hindu then?
-People have died for many things, that's irrelevant. It only shows that they believed in it; it doesn't show whether sth is true. We don't really know who came up with the claim that Jesus BODILY resurrected and whether they died for it.
-People change their lives due to all sorts of things, including feminism, Scientology and 'insert ideology/religion here'. 


I would like to ask you a few things:
a) Do you believe in Darwinian evolution?
b) Do you believe the dead rose when Jesus died and walked around Jerusalem? Why does only the Gospel of Matthew mentioned it? Or do you interpret it as not literal? Then can't we do the same regarding Jesus resurrection?
c) Do you have any reason for believing in God? (Other than wishing it to be true)


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## eworm (Oct 18, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So do you believe Muhammad split the moon? Are you biased against it just because it is a miracle?


Koran having been dictated by Allah word by word is supposed to be the only miracle in Islam. The stories like the one you've mentioned contradict that basic idea and have most likely been added later. So no, in this case I indeed don't believe in it.
However, try to use the same justification with Christianity and you have nothing substantial the miracles would've been added to. There is no Christianity without miracles like the Virgin Birth or the miraculous healings Jesus performed or the Resurrection or the Ascension.
Without those all you are left with is the most insane guy in the world (believed himself to be God, that's pretty nuts) somehow gathering a big group of followers (still ready to die for his nonsense after he got crucified) by spouting the exact things they as Jews would find blasphemous to their faith.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> 3 arguments with 0 weight!
> -If age is of any relevance, Scientology will be true one day. Why aren't you a Hindu then?


It's not the age, it's the survivability. You claim Christianity is nonsense and pretty obviously so. Yet somehow people have been collectively retarded for millennia and failed to see it, while inventing all of the science, technology and civilisation we have now.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -People change their lives due to all sorts of things, including feminism, Scientology and 'insert ideology/religion here'





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -People have died for many things, that's irrelevant. It only shows that they believed in it; it doesn't show whether sth is true. We don't really know who came up with the claim that Jesus BODILY resurrected and whether they died for it.


Oh, we do know they died for it. Historical texts do describe this "bizarre sect" and what was done to eradicate it. Spoiler, it didn't work.
It's true that people believing something doesn't prove it to be true. I've argued the same thing about morality in this very thread. But in the particular instance you're quoting, I wasn't arguing it's true - I was arguing that it was incredibly convincing, enough to die for and therefore it can't be as "obviously nonsensical" as you claim it to be.





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I would like to ask you a few things:
> a) Do you believe in Darwinian evolution?
> b) Do you believe the dead rose when Jesus died and walked around Jerusalem? Why does only the Gospel of Matthew mentioned it? Or do you interpret it as not literal? Then can't we do the same regarding Jesus resurrection?
> c) Do you have any reason for believing in God? (Other than wishing it to be true)


a) It seems to be a likely description of the way some live organisms change in time and it has sufficient scientific backing to warrant a "probably true" label, sure.

b) I see no problem interpreting it literally. Lazarus was brought back to life by Jesus, the blind were given sight, the demons were chased from people, there are many miracles in the Bible and considering the format of the Gospels - that of a historical "reportage" rather than myths and stories - I do believe most of them did happen.
This particular one you've mentioned I can shrug my shoulders at, to be fair, for it doesn't matter. It would be like two eyewitnesses of a murder being consistent on everything, except one mentioned that the killer sneezed before leaving the crime scene and the other said nothing like that. The rest of the testimonies are what's important, no judge would withhold the sentence until the sneeze situation was made clear.
And no, we can't just interpret Jesus's Resurrection as a symbolic thing, because without it, everything else in the Gospels, arguably in the Old testament as well - makes no sense. You don't take away the murder from a crime novel and pretend the story is basically still the same.

c) You seem to have a schizophrenic argument here. On one hand, my God can't be real, because His existence comes with the possibility (I'd argue necessity) of hell and many harsh moral responsibilities and limitations and whatnot. One the other hand, it's just _wishful thinking_ on my part. Why would you assume I _want_ God to be real? Is wanting something the only reason for belief or could my intellectual honesty have something to do with it?

I'd like to answer that last question a bit more broadly, but I want to know where I'm standing with you, so here are my own three questions for you, if you don't mind:
a) Do you believe in souls, humans (and/or animals) having a core element to them that is not physical, nor a result of bodily functions?
b) Do you believe in free will?
c) Do you believe that if the world had developed differently, perhaps at the first millisecond of all time, that we could've come to live in a world where 2+2 would equal 7 or you could both stand and not stand at the same time or a result could precede the cause - a world in which the basic principles of logic would not apply?


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 19, 2018)

eworm said:


> Koran having been dictated by Allah word by word is supposed to be the only miracle in Islam. The stories like the one you've mentioned contradict that basic idea and have most likely been added later. So no, in this case I indeed don't believe in it.


The Quran is not the only holy text in Islam. But I don't want to get off topic. Instead I want to know: Why don't you believe the Quran has been dictated by God (miracle)? Why don't you believe Joseph Smith's miracles and others? Are you biased perhaps?



eworm said:


> Without those all you are left with is the most insane guy in the world (believed himself to be God, that's pretty nuts) somehow gathering a big group of followers (still ready to die for his nonsense after he got crucified) by spouting the exact things they as Jews would find blasphemous to their faith.


Jesus was not the only end times prophet. And yes, he might have been insane. The question is: Why do you still believe in him, even though he was wrong about his return? It didn't happen during their generation (as he claimed).



eworm said:


> It's not the age, it's the survivability. You claim Christianity is nonsense and pretty obviously so. Yet somehow people have been collectively retarded for millennia and failed to see it, while inventing all of the science, technology and civilisation we have now.


Another fallacy (that's number 4): the number of people believing sth is irrelevant. If it were relevant, Christianity would be true now but Islam would be true by the end of the century. Makes no sense, right? And again, Hinduism has survived longer than Christianity. The same is true for Taoism and Judaism. And esp. Hinduism is still practiced by A LOT of people.



eworm said:


> Oh, we do know they died for it. Historical texts do describe this "bizarre sect" and what was done to eradicate it. Spoiler, it didn't work.
> It's true that people believing something doesn't prove it to be true. I've argued the same thing about morality in this very thread. But in the particular instance you're quoting, I wasn't arguing it's true - I was arguing that it was incredibly convincing, enough to die for and therefore it can't be as "obviously nonsensical" as you claim it to be.


Martyrdom increases the number of followers. It's also true for the 9/11 attacks (more converts to Islam in the US). There are psychological reasons for that (don't want to get into it).
In addition to Martyrdom, Christianity spread because it appealed to the weak (slaves, women -> 50% of the population) and was trendy as it was very similar to other cults at the time (which had initiation rituals and were mysterious) like Mithraism. The old Gods were no longer appealing. Religious trends change.



eworm said:


> a) It seems to be a likely description of the way some live organisms change in time and it has sufficient scientific backing to warrant a "probably true" label, sure.


SOME organisms? All life on earth. From single cells to humans. Do you doubt that?



eworm said:


> b) I see no problem interpreting it literally. Lazarus was brought back to life by Jesus, the blind were given sight, the demons were chased from people, there are many miracles in the Bible and considering the format of the Gospels - that of a historical "reportage" rather than myths and stories - I do believe most of them did happen.
> This particular one you've mentioned I can shrug my shoulders at, to be fair, for it doesn't matter. It would be like two eyewitnesses of a murder being consistent on everything, except one mentioned that the killer sneezed before leaving the crime scene and the other said nothing like that. The rest of the testimonies are what's important, no judge would withhold the sentence until the sneeze situation was made clear.
> And no, we can't just interpret Jesus's Resurrection as a symbolic thing, because without it, everything else in the Gospels, arguably in the Old testament as well - makes no sense. You don't take away the murder from a crime novel and pretend the story is basically still the same.


Fair enough. Except that sneezing is SLIGHTLY less significant than a freaking zombie show all over town. In my humble opinion it reduces the significance of Jesus own supposed resurrection. Jesus brings other people, yes, but I have always read them as sth like a near-death story. Then Jesus showed up and the person who had just been thought of as dead, was alive again. That's different from a zombie apocalypse in the capital... (they had clearly been dead).



eworm said:


> c) You seem to have a schizophrenic argument here. On one hand, my God can't be real, because His existence comes with the possibility (I'd argue necessity) of hell and many harsh moral responsibilities and limitations and whatnot.


Your version of God can't be real because a "God is love" kind of God wouldn't be worse than any murderer in history. At least the Saudis who killed the diplomat recently had the decency to let him die after torturing him.
We can't live without sustaining us, right? So then why doesn't God just let people stop existing if they are not willing to go to heaven? Since you claim nobody goes to hell against his/her will...



eworm said:


> One the other hand, it's just _wishful thinking_ on my part. Why would you assume I _want_ God to be real? Is wanting something the only reason for belief or could my intellectual honesty have something to do with it?


You still haven't provided evidence. All four arguments are highly fallacious. Is there anything else?



eworm said:


> a) Do you believe in souls, humans (and/or animals) having a core element to them that is not physical, nor a result of bodily functions?


No. Our conscience is the result of brain activity. If certain parts of the brain are damaged, our personality changes. When the brain is dead, our conscience is gone. And since I believe in Darwinian evolution, it makes no sense to assume that we are different from animals. How could we have souls but not animals? We are relatives (biologically speaking). At what point did we receive a soul? When we branched off from cells that could process sunlight? (plants) When we became mammals? etc
When I still believed in (/hope for) God I assumed that evolution was true but that God made humans just pop into existence at some unknown time. But now I realize how much self-deceiving it takes to believe that. We all share the same basic proteins. Humans, worms and even more simple forms of life. Or was God doing that on purpose to deceive us?



eworm said:


> b) Do you believe in free will?


Considering the absurdity of my writing this against/without my will... I sure hope so! I could be convinced otherwise.



eworm said:


> c) Do you believe that if the world had developed differently, perhaps at the first millisecond of all time, that we could've come to live in a world where 2+2 would equal 7 or you could both stand and not stand at the same time or a result could precede the cause - a world in which the basic principles of logic would not apply?


This is the world I find myself in. A world in which effects come after causes, 2+2 equals 4 etc. It might be possible, it might not be. It doesn't effect my life at all. It's like the question: Could our lives just be a simulation. We wouldn't know and we couldn't change it even if it were so.
The question of whether God exists does affect me. I could be threatened (by individuals and even the state) for offending someone's beliefs. I could end up in eternal suffering of a particular God among thousands. So that's why I studied these things. Now I somehow regret it and wish I could get this wasted time refunded. Being blissfully ignorant is even a good thing in Christianity as it ensures a less strict judgement.


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## ItsKipz (Oct 19, 2018)

don't care about the religion but so many people who believe in it seem to be judgemental assholes so that's fun


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## FAST6191 (Oct 19, 2018)

eworm said:


> It's not the age, it's the survivability.



A favourite analysis ponders whether polytheism largely gave way to monotheism because of the same reason big corporations survive more easily than lots of small ones (primarily singular focus and less overhead).

But yes I have no problem going with the notion that the overwhelming majority of humans in history have lacked the critical thinking (or been suppressed hard enough) that religion stuck around, and continued to worm its way into things (it is not like it remained static throughout that time either).


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## CORE (Oct 19, 2018)

Whats Your General Opinion of Islam? Hindu? GhostBusters?.....DOGMA!!!

The Christianity everyone is referring to is Imposters. 

Jesus is God and he died for everyone GodBless!


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## PanTheFaun (Oct 19, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> don't care about the religion but so many people who believe in it seem to be judgemental assholes so that's fun


You'll get that with any religion.


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## eworm (Oct 19, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Our conscience is the result of brain activity. If certain parts of the brain are damaged, our personality changes. When the brain is dead, our conscience is gone. And since I believe in Darwinian evolution, it makes no sense to assume that we are different from animals. How could we have souls but not animals? We are relatives (biologically speaking). At what point did we receive a soul? When we branched off from cells that could process sunlight? (plants) When we became mammals? etc
> (...)
> Considering the absurdity of my writing this against/without my will... I sure hope so! I could be convinced otherwise.


So you believe in free will and believe that consciousness is only the result of brain activity. You believe you're a pre-programmed robot, completely reactionary to the circumstances outside and inside your physical body, but also believe you (whatever "you" means) can make choices and freely refuse to follow what the body wants.

It's good to know I haven't been arguing with a person who holds opinions and can reason, but with a biological algorithm that is incapable of saying anything outside the result of countless circumstances affecting a particular, very complex vegetable.

Sorry, but you can't really _believe_ (indeed you surely don't) that consciousness is only and solely the result of brain activity, because if it were, "believe" would be a word without meaning. Or rather, the meaning we assign to it, would be not just false, but impossible.

If we can't agree on humans being capable of reason, doubt, will and a certain degree of self-definition, we can't argue. We can't disagree, we can't even really talk. As in, literally can't. How do you "argue" with what can't think?

Bodies are our cars, the brain is the steering wheel and the pedals, but you don't get to argue about traffic laws - indeed there can't be any - when you don't believe in drivers.

Sorry, I hoped we could find some really basic common ground and then slowly discuss from there until we reach the very first philosophical point where our ways of thinking split, but clearly it won't go anywhere. _You don't believe in yourSELF_. I'd say the argument is over, but for you it couldn't have began...


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## FAST6191 (Oct 20, 2018)

That is an interesting way to diving out of a discussion, not sure I have seen it as fully realised (though still massively underwhelming) as that before. Or maybe it is just a slight twist on the meaninglessness one I have read for years.

"pre-programmed robot"
No, if nothing else I imagine the person you are discussing that with is aware of developmental psychology. The programming is an ongoing process. There are doubtless things programmed in at a biological level (active programmable processing is more expensive in energy and resources than dedicated single task processing)

"but with a biological algorithm that is incapable of saying anything outside the result of countless circumstances"
You say it like it is a bad thing. I would probably also ponder how much entropy affects things.

Similarly said algorithm is evolving, self selecting and self reinforcing and has outputs that, so far as we can tell, we don't otherwise see happen (or happen at all commonly) with plain old physics and thus is worth at least protecting to see where it goes. By virtue of said large number of variables the algorithm is also fairly hard to predict the output of (though still possible) which makes its results even more interesting.
Can't wait to see what becomes of these lines of logic when we develop human level AI and beyond.


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## Saviouz (Oct 20, 2018)

Great thread lol
Actually, I think that christianity is such a weird phenomenon, I feel like it actually gets people further away from finding meaning in life or trying to answer the though questions. In some countries, cristianity is just a social, family tradition more than something that is developed from internal reflections or questioning, which is the proper way to approach a religion, in my opinion. 
Some people are born into it and get really used to it. So much so, that it becomes the normal and just another reason to see other people that think differtly from them as the "other". 
As a somewhat spiritual atheist, this sums up why I'm not particulary favorable to any religion.

There are some christians that I admire deeply though, not conservative or right wing at all, just taking really f'ing seriously the values of Jesus, and loving their neighbours as theirselves. They were very active in the community, bringing meals to the elderly, helping stranded teenagers and all sorts of other useful charitable work. Basically, they are kick ass and very cool.

So, I think that Christianity like any other religion should be taken with a grain of salt, I think that everybody should develop their beliefs in their own time and not be taught what to believe since birth. But that it carries also a lot of good, fundamental values that have been true across millennia of human history. As do some other books other than the Bible. I think it would be great if we could just incorporate these teaching in our day to day, twenty-first century life without fighting each other for something that doesn't even literally exist.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 20, 2018)

eworm said:


> So you believe in free will


Yes, unless it's an illusion, but I do believe I have free will



eworm said:


> and believe that consciousness is only the result of brain activity.


Yes.



eworm said:


> You believe you're a pre-programmed robot, completely reactionary to the circumstances outside and inside your physical body


How does that follow from the two premises?
I believe I make my own decisions, how am I then pre-programmed?!

Please apologize for the straw man and reply to my former discussion points. Unless you are able to show me how your conclusion follows from the premises.


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## Song of storms (Oct 20, 2018)

I like christianity


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## eworm (Oct 20, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> How does that follow from the two premises?
> I believe I make my own decisions, how am I then pre-programmed?!
> Please apologize for the straw man and reply to my former discussion points. Unless you are able to show me how your conclusion follows from the premises.


The brain is physical, biological. Its activity - which you claim includes the free will - is therefore dependent on the physical and biological forces affecting it from within and without. And _nothing else_, for you admit there is no supernatural soul or any element beyond the physical to the "self". Thus, if it's wholly dependent on the physical and biological, it cannot produce a result that's beyond the natural outcome of those. Drawing more and more 2D squares on a sheet of paper won't turn that sheet of paper into a 3D cube and increasing the complexity of an algorithm will not make it capable of choosing whether it should follow its own elements or not. For the brain to question what the purely biological results of its activity are, it needs a user beyond itself.
Unless you're saying that nature's laws are inconsistent and their rules change every once in a while for no reason? That would allow you to say that although the brain is biological, the results don't necessarily follow from what the biology would claim. Of course that'd also be you admitting miracles can - and do - exist.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 21, 2018)

We can build an AI that is able to say "ah" or "oh". If we pre-program it to sing "ah-oh-ah-ah-oh" then that would be pre-programed. But if we don't program it this way, even the AI has free will.
Sometimes we program an AI so that it chooses "oh" 70% of the time (for example) and "ah" 30% of the time. But even then we don't know the order of arrangement, even then the AI has free will (albeit to a lesser extent).

Therefore, as a biological being I am only restricted ("programmed") in the sense that I can't choose to fly like a bird or to feel like a woman or to think like a Gorilla etc because I have to work with what I have (body including brain).

If you choose not to engage with people who don't believe in God but don't think they are pre-programmed, you are propably excluding a billion people or so. Even people like Richard Dawkins who deny free will, wouldn't use the word "pre-programmed", I assume.


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## eworm (Oct 21, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> We can build an AI that is able to say "ah" or "oh". If we pre-program it to sing "ah-oh-ah-ah-oh" then that would be pre-programed. But if we don't program it this way, even the AI has free will.
> Sometimes we program an AI so that it chooses "oh" 70% of the time (for example) and "ah" 30% of the time. But even then we don't know the order of arrangement, even then the AI has free will (albeit to a lesser extent).
> 
> Therefore, as a biological being I am only restricted ("programmed") in the sense that I can't choose to fly like a bird or to feel like a woman or to think like a Gorilla etc because I have to work with what I have (body including brain).
> ...


Clearly we don't have the same definition of "free will". Of course we're limited in our choices by physics, biology, genetics, all that. Saying "I can't fly" doesn't mean "I don't have free will", on that we agree. However, my point is "free will" is the ability to _question_ our "programming". This is the #1 thing human reason has over any and all other (non-God) reason, including AI. We can program AI to question all the programming it has, but not _that_ programming. If we allow it to say "ah" and "oh" in any order, it will be able to randomly "choose" the order - but it won't be able to say "f*ck it, I feel like 'eh' today, what'chu gonna do". It will still be "ah" and "oh". And "randomness" doesn't mean "will" anyway.

If the brain has no "driver" and is itself one, then in theory we could, provided we had perfect knowledge of how the brain works, be able to take a child, constantly feed him a very specific set of circumstances, experiences, foods, knowledge and all that - and know upfront exactly what they were gonna do on March 17th, 3:05 PM three years later. If that sounds closer to free will to you than to brainwashing and manipulation, we won't agree on anything. Your assumption must result in the conclusion that predicting a person's behaviour is no different, albeit incredibly more complicated, then predicting the weather. The weather has no free will, it's but a result of what has been and the "cause and effect" laws that govern it. So is a brain activity without an "outside" self.

In short, there's some programming we can't disobey (spiritual programming, the essence of what we are as creatures) and there's programming we can disobey _to an extent_ (biological programming) by having free will. The very fact we can ponder "are we capable of questioning our programming" shows we're capable of questioning our programming.

And no, I don't "refuse to engage" with people who believe what you do. I try to make it a rule not to refuse to engage with anyone who's willing to engage regardless of their opinion, as long as I see a possibility of such engaging being somewhat fruitful and/or interesting. But in this case I see no point in arguing _about God or religion_ if we disagree on the very grounds that should make discussion possible. We can keep talking about what is or isn't free will, but that's not really this thread any more.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 21, 2018)

eworm said:


> If we allow it to say "ah" and "oh" in any order, it will be able to randomly "choose" the order - but it won't be able to say "f*ck it, I feel like 'eh' today, what'chu gonna do". It will still be "ah" and "oh".


Only because it is a simple example. To rebel against sth is part of our behavioral repertoire*.*
I assume you don't believe Bonopos (our closest relative) have free will. You'd have to demonstrate that we are fundamentally different. I think we just happen to have a larger repertoire.



eworm said:


> If the brain has no "driver" and is itself one, then in theory we could, provided we had perfect knowledge of how the brain works, be able to take a child, constantly feed him a very specific set of circumstances, experiences, foods, knowledge and all that - and know upfront exactly what they were gonna do on March 17th, 3:05 PM three years later. If that sounds closer to free will to you than to brainwashing and manipulation, we won't agree on anything.


If it were possible to predict it like that, then free will wouldn't exist. But I do believe it exists. The famous experiment conducted by Benjamin Libet has a number of problems so I am not convinced of his conclusions.




eworm said:


> Your assumption must result in the conclusion that predicting a person's behaviour is no different, albeit incredibly more complicated, then predicting the weather. The weather has no free will, it's but a result of what has been and the "cause and effect" laws that govern it. So is a brain activity without an "outside" self.


I disagree. I think you could theoretically forecast the weather of the year 3000 but you can't reliably predict whether I go to work tomorrow.



eworm said:


> We can keep talking about what is or isn't free will, but that's not really this thread any more.


We only got side-tracked because you assumed I didn't think there is free will (which is false) and because you don't want to engage with people who assume they don't have free will.
Actually, I could flip it around:
If God knows everything, he knows exactly how you will respond to this post. Therefore, you do not have free will.
So why am I even talking with you?
But I'm not that childish. Let me explain:

Let's say Fred does not believe in free will. If I change his opinion on topic X (let's say global warming), I will view it as changing or influencing his will/mind. But he will view it as being the result of determined events.
So what? In my worldview, engaging with Fred makes sense, and in his worldview he had no choice but to change his mind. In any case, it makes sense to engage in conversation because our worldview only determines the interpretation after the event.

Let's get back to Christianity: Why did you only admit to some kind of evolution? How did humans come about?


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## eworm (Oct 24, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I think you could theoretically forecast the weather of the year 3000 but you can't reliably predict whether I go to work tomorrow.


I still genuinely don't understand how you can say that. I'm not trying to "gotcha" you here, I actually don't see your logic. If I knew everything about how your "purely biological" brain ticks and about the information that has influenced it thus far and the information that will influence it until the time comes for you to go to work tomorrow - what would prevent me from doing the "math" and predicting your brain's *re*actions?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Actually, I could flip it around:
> If God knows everything, he knows exactly how you will respond to this post. Therefore, you do not have free will.
> So why am I even talking with you?
> But I'm not that childish.


This puts me in an uncomfortable spot. Either you're really "not that childish" and know the simple (and old) answer to this supposed paradox or you don't and you genuinely thought this was a "point for you". I want to assume the former, but that would mean you attempted to "one-up" me with something you knew wasn't a legit argument. So you seem either dishonest or uninformed due to this statement and I think the latter is better after all. We're all misinformed about plenty of stuff.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Let's say Fred does not believe in free will. If I change his opinion on topic X (let's say global warming), I will view it as changing or influencing his will/mind. But he will view it as being the result of determined events.
> So what? In my worldview, engaging with Fred makes sense, and in his worldview he had no choice but to change his mind. In any case, it makes sense to engage in conversation because our worldview only determines the interpretation after the event.


This makes sense until you realize that free will existing or not - or the nature of it - doesn't have any immediate relevance to the problem of global warming. But it has a lot to do with Christianity. It's a basis on which many of my further points will, at least partially, stand. It's one of the deepest-reaching underlying premises of all my arguments. If you take it to be false, you won't even have to argue my further points, you'll just point to that basis and say "well, you're making a wrong assumption there, so this whole argument is invalid". And logically speaking you won't be wrong - it's important to spot the premises under the argument and question those first. But you're now saying it's _not_ important to have our premises straight before launching into a debate. And i can't agree with that, I'm sorry.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Let's get back to Christianity: Why did you only admit to some kind of evolution? How did humans come about?


Let's get back to astronomy: Have you ever made a wish upon a star?
That question is not an astronomy question, it has nothing to do with science.
Your question is similar - it has nothing to do with Christianity.
God could've created humans in countless ways, most of which we couldn't even imagine. So? The points Christianity actually makes is that however He created us:
- _He_ created us
- He also created _everything else
- _all He created was _good_
- He made us _in His own image_
- He created us so He could _love us_
- _we rejected Him_ out of pride and f*cked it up
And many other, actually important stuff. If the Bible has, in fact, taught the creation of humans to have been a lengthy process involving big changes in other animals - you wouldn't be a Christian regardless. Maybe you'd begrudgingly accept we had "this one thing sort of correct" or maybe you'd be doubting evolution, demanding more proof. Either way, evolution doesn't and can't disprove Christianity. It's not relevant.
Unless of course you think the Bible includes a careful _historical_ account of _pre_historical times, in which case, welp, got me there.


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## Reiten (Oct 24, 2018)

This has been an interesting read. As I see it Christianity has outlived it's purpose, which, as I see it, was to spread a common moral code among the populace. And before anyone starts talking about God, if he even exists, he wasn't involved.

Now I have a few questions to @eworm :

Where does God come from? You probably know where I'm heading with this question, but still humor me.
Before I can really ask the question I want to ask, I need some clarification. What are the characteristics of God? God is often described as all-powerful, all-knowing, well generally omnipotent. What of  this holds in your belief?
The last thing that interest me is the discussion of free will. I tried to figure out how you define free will from your posts, but just couldn't get any good definition, so would you be so kind to provide one, or if I missed it a place to look?
I doubt anything I say will be able to change your view on religion, and I doubt you'll be able to change mine, but I find this discussion interesting and hope that you'll respond.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 25, 2018)

eworm said:


> I still genuinely don't understand how you can say that. I'm not trying to "gotcha" you here, I actually don't see your logic. If I knew everything about how your "purely biological" brain ticks and about the information that has influenced it thus far and the information that will influence it until the time comes for you to go to work tomorrow - what would prevent me from doing the "math" and predicting your brain's *re*actions?


Because, similar to an AI, I have choices.
Let's say I like apple pie and strawberry pie exactly the same. If I had apple pie the other day, we could probably predict that I would eat strawberry pie today. But if I had eaten both apple pie and strawberry pie the other day (i.e. my experience favors none of the choices), there is no way to predict which one I am going to choose.
I am not just the sum of my experience+DNA. My DNA influences my decisions substantially, yes, but I do make choices and these choices have an impact on my experience which also influence my choices. Again, I could be wrong but I personally haven't seen strong evidence for it yet.



eworm said:


> _- _all He created was _good_


Including the animals who keep their prey alive so that they can eat it slowly (while the prey is still alive?). Some Japanese soldiers are reported to have done this in World War 2, but you will explain it away with the help of free will. But what about the animals which do this?



eworm said:


> - He made us _in His own image_


Or we made him in ours_._ The westernized Jesus and the claims of a black Jesus by African-Americans points to my interpretation. You know what they say about cows...



eworm said:


> - He created us so He could _love us_


Careful, you almost make it sound like God has needs or wishes.



eworm said:


> - _we rejected Him_ out of pride and f*cked it up


God knew this would happen but he created this supposedly good world anyway. Could he not have created a world which is BETTER but still contains free will? I can think of one: A world without a pedophiles. I bet being a pedophile has something to do with genes. Just recently a huge study (500.000 people) found that homosexuality is based on genes. If this gene shows up in females, it increases their sex drive and beauty, if it shows up in men, they are gay. From an evolutionary perspective of selfish genes this makes sense. But was God the author of pedophilia or homosexuality? (I do not EQUATE THE TWO AT ALL! just to be clear; consenting adults can do whatever they want). How in the world did humans fuck up and created pedophilia?



eworm said:


> Either way, evolution doesn't and can't disprove Christianity. It's not relevant.


I was curious where you stand on this (as you know many Christians have a problem with it).

Please tell me: Why does God discriminate against amputees? He heals the sick, the blind, saves people from accidents, etc. But he never allows limbs to grow back. Not even a finger. There are tiny animals that are able to do it. Are they more powerful than God or does God have prejudice against amputees?


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## Subtle Demise (Oct 25, 2018)

eworm said:


> That's what I'm arguing - no, morality does not change. If morality was evolving and changing, it wouldn't be "like science". You'd have to argue that the world's rules are constantly changing and shifting, the physics now are different from the past physics and who knows whether we'll still have gravity in some hundred years. Our _understanding_ of the world changes, yes - by coming closer to or further away from a real, objective, static truth about the world. So do the moral principles we operate on the basis of can change by getting closer or further away from what Good really, objectively is.


Yeah, science's definition is our understanding of the world. It is in a state of constant change as we make new discoveries. Even scientific laws can be altered or debunked entirely if enough evidence is found. For early man, religion and science were pretty much one and the same. They believed the sun was the source of all life and that it was some kind of God. Later we found out the sun was just a superheated ball of gas and there are trillions of them just like it throughout the universe. Morality too can be in a constant state of flux. Until pretty recently, it wasn't considered morally reprehensible to hate a person based on race, religion, gender, sexuality, nationality, and others. We discovered that maybe it wasn't a good thing to do.


eworm said:


> Again, why am I arguing about all of this. There is no reason to argue the results and consequences of God's existence without discussing that very existence first. I keep trying to go back to "is God real?" and all I'm getting in return is "Christianity isn't good". Hey, newsflash - you don't believe in "good" or "evil", apparently, only in opinions about things. If morality is not objective, your own argument against the _good_ in Christianity (even forgetting that it's irrelevant to the "_reality_ of God" question in the first place) is obliterated. It's no argument, it's an "I don't like it!" childish tantrum.


I never said I didn't believe in good or evil. Everyone believes in good and evil, they just have different ideas about what they mean. I was speaking about God in a hypothetical sense and holding him to his own moral standards. Growing up in church, it was easy to talk about him in a way as if he was real. Christianity itself has done more good than bad in my opinion. I've even taken advantage of Christian food pantries to feed my kids when money was tight.


eworm said:


> Let's try to eliminate your hypocritical moral outrage against Christianity from the discussion using a hypothetical. Let's say a new religion shows up and it says "God exists, He's a personal being - and He hates people". Would you then believe that religion? Because none of your arguments thus far seem to contradict God's _existence_, only His loving nature and/or His almighty nature and/or His three-personal nature. You're being heretics, but not atheists. Let's say a god exists, but is not like the Christian God outside of being personal. Why would you not believe in that one?


The point I was trying to get to is that if God is not all-powerful or all-knowing, then either he doesn't exist, the Bible is wrong, or both. If the Bible has an error in it, it is no longer the infallible word of God. The being described in the Bible really doesn't seem to be any if those things. He had a tough time figuring out what the hell was going on in the Garden of Eden. Not long after that, he regretted creating life and just decided to destroy almost all of it and start over. This is in stark contrast to the sudden personality shift between the old and new testament. Now all of a sudden we have a God who loves his people and was willing to sacrifice his son who was also a part of himself in order to save us (sucks to be anyone who lived during the old testament, I'm sure it was considerably more difficult to reach heaven during those times). A man who was supposedly without sin, but doubted God ("Father, why have you forsaken me?"), which I thought was a sin. Honestly though, the two testaments are so radically different in tone and seem to describe different deities. Almost like it was two separate religions slapped together. 

As for if I would believe in any God: no I wouldn't. See, with science, the people making claims have to show their work and provide proof of what they're claiming. We can look at the science journals and see evidence for any scientific law or theory. You mentioned to someone else about historical events. We don't believe someone just because they said some event took place. We can go to a museum and see the artifacts and ancient texts and documents. There are all kinds of photographs and video evidence of archaeological finds. These finds can be dated to long before the events in the Bible, and sometimes even contradict it. For instance, there is no evidence that there were ever Jewish slaves in Egypt. Nor have we discovered where they wandered the desert for 40 years. You'd think we'd find skeletons or at least a hardened and preserved piece of manna or something by now.

I believe Genesis describes Earth as something like a dome sitting atop four pillars. Well, we've been to space, and photographed the Earth many times. We have robots on Mars, and deep space probes that go even further. We have yet to find any other intelligent beings out there yet, but I believe we will soon. Maybe not within my lifetime, but the probability of there being some other life-bearing planet in the vast universe is pretty high. How would the discovery of alien life forms affect your faith?


eworm said:


> I mean, this "obvious nonsense" has only been around for over two millennia, people have died for it, people have changed their lives due to it..


In the history of mankind, Christianity is relatively new. It even borrowed traditions, teachings and concepts from the older religions, namely paganism.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 25, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> Yeah, science's definition is our understanding of the world. It is in a state of constant change as we make new discoveries.


Yes, but the laws of the universe do not change. Our understanding of the universe changes.



Subtle Demise said:


> Until pretty recently, it wasn't considered morally reprehensible to hate a person based on race, religion, gender, sexuality, nationality, and others. We discovered that maybe it wasn't a good thing to do.


We discovered it? Bad choice of words. There is nothing to discover.
BTW hate has become such empty word. If it's not morally good to love e.g. Germans, then it's also not morally reprehensible to hate Germans. Anyway, morality is subjective, so you can have your views.


With regards to the discrepancy between the God of the Old and New Testament: I wouldn't call the eternal torturer (New Testament) more pleasant than the children-killing psychopath (Passover) of the Old Testament.


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## SG854 (Oct 25, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> We discovered it?


We got a telescope and discovered it in a lab


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## SuperDan (Oct 25, 2018)

its a lie ! based on controlling the masses ... you dont need a god to be a good person


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## mechagnizmz (Oct 25, 2018)

What strengthens my religious belief in a God (I am a practicing Catholic) are the numerous real-life examples of where people have experienced him. For example:

*The testimony of Gloria Polo who goes around the world telling of her experience of afterlife  -*  https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/god-got-glorias-attention-lightning-hells-gate-vision-purgatory/

... and many other testimonies of people whose lives have drastically changed due to their discovery of an afterlife (and therefore God). Just search on Google.

God bless you and have a nice day.


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## Tigran (Oct 25, 2018)

Just remember.. Christians are sheep.

That's not even an insult. They call themselves that.


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## eworm (Oct 25, 2018)

Reiten said:


> Now I have a few questions to @eworm :
> 
> Where does God come from? You probably know where I'm heading with this question, but still humor me.
> Before I can really ask the question I want to ask, I need some clarification. What are the characteristics of God? God is often described as all-powerful, all-knowing, well generally omnipotent. What of  this holds in your belief?
> ...


Neat, this sounds promising.

1. I can indeed see where you're going with this, but I'm not gonna wiggle around. I'm perfectly comfortable saying God doesn't "come" from anywhere or anything. Now, in terms of "origin of the world" debacle, this sounds like a very convenient premise, but maybe my next answer will help understand why it's not quite a cop-out.

2. God is, among others:

all-powerful, which means He can create and alter the state of things with His will alone. Like create the universe, for example.

all-knowing, which means He possesses perfect knowledge about everything. This is quite natural considering He is the one who created everything and keeps it in existence at all time. Also since He is...
outside of time, which means He doesn't "predict" the future and doesn't "remember" the past. We live in time - having a past (meaning things and qualities we lost) and a future (meaning we're going to change). Since God is...
a Perfect Being, of course He doesn't change (as change would imply changing for better or worse, neither of which real perfection can do). In short, every millisecond of all history/current moment/future is "now" to God. He doesn't have "just one second" to listen to a one-second-long prayer of a dying person, for example.
three-personal, which is a big mystery and I can hardly explain it, but there are some elements that I may touch on it. For one, one can think of it like going from the second dimension to the third dimension. A being of 2D realm, could never imagine what a cube is, even when they were told it's "made of several squares that form one cube". All explanations would sound ludicrous. We're kinda like that. We live in a world in which one being can't be more than one person (without some personality disorders, but that's not the same). Secondly, while we call Jesus "son" and God "father", it is only the closest word we have to explaining the relationship. One fault in it is that it implies "order" - it would imply Jesus was "second", but that's not the case, God was "complete" from the start. The point of the "father-son" relationship is to drive home that Jesus is not like us "created", but "begotten" - aka, like a human parent gives a human nature to their child, God's son is also fully God (albeit, again, not "a second God" like Zeus and his bunch, it's just to drive home the divine nature). Finally, it's pretty obvious that if God is Love, well, there's no love with just one person. In His own nature, God's love manifests itself.
much more, but I'll spare you for now
So yeah, it all "holds in my belief"

3. I would broadly define (human) free will as "the manifestation of the being's "self" through the ability to question". Questioning one's own nature, one's own decisions, one's own actions, the world around oneself, the other people, reasoning and logic also - it manifests itself in our actions, thoughts, beliefs, relationships, experiments, wishes,pretty much everything - but it all boils down to "questioning", I'd say. If we had no free will, we would never notice we could possibly not have free will.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Careful, you almost make it sound like God has needs or wishes.


Needs, no. At least not in the sense we understand the word. But wishes? Why not? Of course He has wishes, did you miss that part of Christianity that says God _willed_ the world into existence?


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## FAST6191 (Oct 25, 2018)

mechagnizmz said:


> What strengthens my religious belief in a God (I am a practicing Catholic) are the numerous real-life examples of where people have experienced him. For example:
> 
> *The testimony of Gloria Polo who goes around the world telling of her experience of afterlife  -*  https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/god-got-glorias-attention-lightning-hells-gate-vision-purgatory/chemic
> 
> ...



Yet I go anywhere in the world or speak to anybody of a given background and any such "experiences" will tend to reflect the local/background practices -- I tend not to go to deepest, darkest Japan and find someone espousing the virtues of some African mystics, by similar token I go to the middle east and will not tend to find a practising Muslim talking about Thor (unless it is the film, in which case they will talk your ear off). Similarly if I go look at records of "experiences" before contact with various religions I will similarly have a hard time finding anything that would say some hitherto unknown to them knowledge was dropped.
I can induce/reproduce such experiences reliably with chemicals, trauma and other means (continuing with the above thing about groups can you guess what happens when I go speak to some cult members in the southern US?), and commonly attribute or discount those claiming such things by virtue of those three.

"an afterlife (_and therefore God_)"

How do I know they have not discovered Valhalla? If they have discovered an afterlife it does not have to be the "Christian" (again widely varying interpretations of such things) version.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Oct 26, 2018)

eworm said:


> Needs, no. At least not in the sense we understand the word. But wishes? Why not? Of course He has wishes, did you miss that part of Christianity that says God _willed_ the world into existence?


A will is stronger than a wish. If he is all-powerful, he could create a better world than ours. We can easily think of better worlds than ours. I am not even talking about earth quakes, I'm sure they have a purpose regarding this planet. William Lane Craig just argues that our world could be the world in which most people are saved, but even that is ridiculous.
I can give you a world in which more people are saved: a world in which human limbs grow back after a prayer group prays for it. Which brings me back to the question: Why does God not and never has healed amputees?

When I first read this, I didn't take it seriously, but it made me think.


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## phalk (Oct 26, 2018)

The same as with every religion.
It's a man's thing. Not related to any god or the divine at all.
I believe a god does indeed exists, but I can't fathom a god not to be something universal, as in, a being or thing that created the whole universe.
Also, by this definition, this god would not interfere here at all. There's no such thing as miracles or divine intervention. Those are just delusions of hopeless people.


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## Tigran (Oct 26, 2018)

eworm said:


> Neat, this sounds promising.
> 
> 
> all-powerful, which means He can create and alter the state of things with His will alone. Like create the universe, for example.



Which means he is a complete dick considering kids with cancer, kids starving to death, the general defection rate of humans. And can't even protect people in his own churches.



> all-knowing, which means He possesses perfect knowledge about everything. This is quite natural considering He is the one who created everything and keeps it in existence at all time. Also since He is...



Which means he is a complete dick because he murdered thousands of innocent Egyptians by knowing the Pharaoh *who's heart HE hardened btw* wouldn't let Moses' people, go... THEN send a whole bunch of plagues over innocent people who literally didn't have choices in the matter. Either be killed by a plague or be killed by a Pharaoh that YHWH made a jerk in the first place.



> outside of time, which means He doesn't "predict" the future and doesn't "remember" the past. We live in time - having a past (meaning things and qualities we lost) and a future (meaning we're going to change). Since God is...



That makes him a literal Mother fucker considering the whole Jesus is God thing.



> a Perfect Being, of course He doesn't change (as change would imply changing for better or worse, neither of which real perfection can do). In short, every millisecond of all history/current moment/future is "now" to God. He doesn't have "just one second" to listen to a one-second-long prayer of a dying person, for example.



See above for him being a complete dick/asshole. Not to mention the whole fact that he apparently *going by you're view here* has no problem with Abortion since he knew those parasites would be aborted early. Also, the whole... He knows you're going to go to hell since day one or whatever.

And if YHWH is a perfect benign being as you claim.. How the hell is Satan/Devil/Lucifer *By the way... What has he actually done that's supposed to be so evil?* exist?

Oh.. You're theory also falls apart in the story of the Tree. If God was supposedly a perfect being that knew what was going to happen... WTF was the whole deal with the tree to begin with?


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## CORE (Oct 26, 2018)

GOD = Has Always Been. Always Is. Always Was. And Always With You. He is nothing any mere Mortal Mind can comprehend.
IT IS UP TO YOU TO ASK HIM INTO YOUR LIFE AND GUIDE YOU.
Freewill = Do what you want but just take heed that not every choice will be a good one.
Miracles = They are very real in many occasions unfortunately not everyone experiences them.

God in general is with you but will not impose on you where he is not welcome , but yet if something bad happens oh it his fault but how is it Gods fault when you did not believe in him in the first place neither did you care only when something terrible happens.

In that regard this is the only way God can reach some people they never listen and get into a mess and sometimes embrace God and are delivered through Jesus who died for All of Humanity you have a chance to come back even after all that mess you have done.

You Submit yourself to God Willingly Lovingly and Unconditionally the kind of Love you have for your Parents only greater God comes first before Everything and Everything in your Life is Blessed I Love God and he Loves Me just as He Loves Everyone of Humanity.

But you dont need to be Saved because in your mind you have not Sinned and dont care or dont Believe so you cant be Judged. It Does not matter what YOU BELIEVE , WHO ARE YOU BEFORE GOD? I am not Better than anybody else neither do I have a Phone Number to ring and ask God please help me i down in the dumps and lost.

What I do DO However is I just Talk to God through our Lord Jesus Christ , And I Talk to God and Jesus and The Holy Spirit as ONE! I see that in my mind as Multiverse Levels and even then my Feeble Mind is still way off because I am nothing without God No One is yet here we are and that alone is a Gift to Exist. GOD LISTENS AND KNOWS WHAT IS IN YOUR CORE!

(No it not why my Name is CORE but guess it should be.)

Satan = The Fallen Yet Appointed god of this Fallen World.

He and his Minion are always with you too tempting you and Imposing on you and Most of The Time We Give In And Have A Good F***ing Time YES HAHAHA.

Or so you think. God does not Impose does not go where he is not wanted but always takes us back with open arms.

The Enemy is always Corrupting and Tempting yet is considered as Freedom and Rebel GIMME A F***ing Break that is how we are enslaved through our Weak Minds Porn , Drugs , Violence , Money , Sports , Gambling , Cars , Fame.

I dont know about Everyone Else But I dont like the idea of being somethings Bitch especially something that Loaves us with a passion think twice before shakin your Bacon at that Porn you dont know what is sitting beside you the same goes for all this Hate Going on all around us.

CHRISTIANITY! A Follower of Jesus Christ do unto others as you would have them do unto yourself , Love Thy Neighbor and Enemy We are all Brothers and Sisters United in Jesus Christ. Tell Me what is so Hateful about That , as I type this and think about the Lord and try to put this into words I Tell no lie I am in Tears and Dont Give a F**k who thinks that pathetic or Sad because the Pure Love that Burns Nothing Can Put that Passion Out!

Catholic - Protestant - Mormon - Jehovah - Jew? If I left anything out Think about your so called Man Made Religion are you a Catholic or a Christian they are not the same thing!

You dont need to go to Church to Know or Talk to God The Temple of God is within YOU so Clean it up think of it as Streaming on a Device you make the Choice what you want to Stream God or the Enemy. Think of it as a Visitor you like to make sure your house Clean and Presentable like an interview even.

Churches are quick to Slam Nasty Video Games or Judge someone because of theyre Character but yet Bribe you with Christian Yoga and Dancing or other Crap! It is up to you to Beg God not the other way around God already gave us Life and offered a way back to Him through his son Become a god through God or Die Like a Dirty Fly like the Lord of the Flies that He and his Minions are.

No Man can deliver you from your Sin but God , so Confess to self Appointed Holy Fathers at your own Peril.




A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not Dangerous it is THE WAY JESUS IS THE WAY!

If anyone is Offended Good it means your Belief is a Lie and you are not 100% Sure Because if it was you would not be Offended.

I am not Looking For Praise What I Say is Irrelevant to God I do not Speak for God I Testify from my perspective one Human Being to another Jesus Christ is the Truth , Saviour , King of Kings AMEN.

GOD BLESS


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## Delerious (Oct 26, 2018)

I'm just going to sum it up with my thoughts on religion in general.

Personal religion - Believe what you want as long as you're not hurting anyone, infringing on their basic human right or sacrificing animals.

Organized religion - Some pros and cons. Often times encourages basic human morality and fellowship. However, can be rather controlling of their followers, some more than others. Women in Catholicism and Mormonism can't uphold the priesthood, therefore you can't help but question some of the motives toward women in general in those religions. Catholics baptize babies, who don't have free will at that point, so i don't really understand that. Also, I can't help but question where some of the money they get from tithing goes to. For Islamic sects, as long as they're not putting so much emphasis on Shariah Law, I'm typically fine with it, but they also have some of the same issues that a lot of Christian sects have. Ultimately though, I don't prefer to debate someone's spiritual beliefs unless they are infringing upon someone's basic human rights. Of course, some will argue that organized religion, to a degree, infringes upon one's right to liberty, but ultimately, the individual has the choice to leave the religion, and in most cases, have their name removes from their records. Which, by the, is another issue I have with organized religion - they like to keep records on people.

Cults - This is where shit gets very gray, often very dark shades. There are some cults that aren't too loony or terrible, but we've all heard horror stories behind some of them. And I'm sure just about everyone here knows about the Westboro Baptist Church which hates LGBTQ people and Jews. Anyway, I'm largely against cults, mostly because of the level of control their leaders tend to hold over their followers. And often times, cults participate in rituals that vary from questionable to outright disgusting.

--

Christianity - There are many who describe themselves as Christian, but don't necessarily follow a particular sect of Christianity. As a whole, I think Christianity is largely good, with most of the flaws being in organized sects of the religion. Many of the stories in the Bible are pretty great, though some certainly make God out to be an asshole.

I myself am more or less agnostic. I believe that there very well could be a central consciousness that gave law to the universe, but I'm just not sure that I can put my faith in a being that wants to be worshiped for it.


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## Subtle Demise (Oct 26, 2018)

Delerious said:


> Cults - This is where shit gets very gray, often very dark shades. There are some cults that aren't too loony or terrible, but we've all heard horror stories behind some of them. And I'm sure just about everyone here knows about the Westboro Baptist Church which hates LGBTQ people and Jews. Anyway, I'm largely against cults, mostly because of the level of control their leaders tend to hold over their followers. And often times, cults participate in rituals that vary from questionable to outright disgusting.


I think a lot of the worst ones are gone now. After what happened with Heaven's Gate and Jonestown, I think people are less willing to mess with the dangerous ones. A lot of them these days are almost just for fun type things. A cult like TOPY for example is more of a fan club for bands like Psychic TV and other artists, and even a record label at one point. They are mostly innocent, although you can find some of their video productions on YouTube now and you can see why they were being investigated in the UK for producing snuff films (all the violent stuff was fake, though). If you count Westboro and Scientology as cults ( I do), then yeah those ones might pose an actual threat some day, but right now, Westboro only says vile things, and I don't believe they ever get physically violent. Scientology seems to mostly prey on celebrities, so I have a hard time being empathetic to those who get scammed by that one. My only concern is for the children who have to be indoctrinated by their parents and will suffer for it in many ways.


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## Glyptofane (Oct 26, 2018)

Not a fan.


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## plasturion (Oct 26, 2018)

What I can say, trying to figure out what is Christianity for personal meaning and use can be wrong. You can always find an argument to deny certain things. You can also interpret things wrong outside church. It's like two different visions about conception of synchronicity between C. Jung and Z. Freud. Most important thing in discovering Christianity is Kenosis. Direct response God to human due the life, personal relationship, trust but also confirmation.


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## dpad_5678 (Oct 26, 2018)

No such thing as a "good Christian". If you follow the bible word for word, you're not a good person because you'd be doing some fucked up shit and would end up hating a LOT of different types of people.

On the other hand, you may loosely follow the bible and not be a complete suckup. And at that point, you're no longer a true Christian. 

We don't need religion. It's destructive and teaches incorrect beliefs such as homophobia, etc.


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## eworm (Oct 28, 2018)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> A will is stronger than a wish. If he is all-powerful, he could create a better world than ours. We can easily think of better worlds than ours. I am not even talking about earth quakes, I'm sure they have a purpose regarding this planet. William Lane Craig just argues that our world could be the world in which most people are saved, but even that is ridiculous.
> I can give you a world in which more people are saved: a world in which human limbs grow back after a prayer group prays for it. Which brings me back to the question: Why does God not and never has healed amputees?


You do realize you're making a complete non-argument, right?
Your argument is that God can't be the ultimate Good, because the world He created has plenty of painful and evil stuff in it. But that only means you admit a premise of "there is such a thing as Good and such a thing as Evil and they are objective, they are not our subjective perceptions". And if it is indeed objective, aka written into the world like the laws of physics, then it is indeed God the Creator who knows better what's good, what's evil, and what evil shall lead to a greater good. On the other hand, if you actually think that what's evil or not depends on one's viewpoint, culture, subjective feelings - then you're holding God to a standard that boils down to "I don't like", which won't hold as an argument for a second.
Recommended reading is C.S. Lewis (again) "The Problem of Pain". Perfectly straightforward and fairly exhaustive set of answers about the whole "suffering vs loving God" dilemma. Might seem like I'm evading the questions by pointing you to a different source, but I'm not gonna do the argument any more justice than Lewis did, especially in a forum post.



Tigran said:


> That makes him a literal Mother fucker considering the whole Jesus is God thing.


I don't think you know what "fucking" is.



Tigran said:


> Not to mention the whole fact that he apparently *going by you're view here* has no problem with Abortion since he knew those parasites would be aborted early. Also, the whole... He knows you're going to go to hell since day one or whatever. (...) You're theory also falls apart in the story of the Tree. If God was supposedly a perfect being that knew what was going to happen... WTF was the whole deal with the tree to begin with?


You keep talking like God "sees the future" - in response to the post in which I've explained that's not the case. He is outside of time, meaning He is "now" in every moment, whether it's the past, the present or the future for us. He doesn't see what's _gonna happen_, He sees what _is happening_. This means our actions still matter and fate is not pre-determined.

The tree is a symbolic story in which what matters is that humans selfishly rejected God. Humans were created to live in God. His Good were our good, His wishes were our happiness, His love was our "energy source". But humans decided to rely on themselves, to seek some other good (which doesn't exist) and thus pride was born. Pride - as in the wish to be "more", to be "better", to be "above". And a prideful creature is inherently incompatible with God, who is "more", "better" and "above" all creation. Whether the prideful act really was disobedience about a fruit or something completely different is irrelevant to the point. Even if it was, in that sin humans cut themselves off from God. The car threw away its engine, the predatory animal removed its own teeth, the gamer broke their controller - we screwed ourselves over.

I'm sorry to hear you consider yourself a "parasite" though. I hope you get happier.


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## NeroAngelo (Oct 28, 2018)

The Islamic story of Satan is kinda cool, Satan was cast out of heaven because when god created Adam, he asked all his creation (Djinns and Angels, Satan is referred to as lord of Djinns) to bow to him, Satan refused, saying why should someone made of Fire bow down to someone born of clay, so god cursed him for his arrogance and cast him out, Satan asked god for one favor that god granted: to live till the end of days and prove to god that humans are unworthy, and swore to him that he would lead his flock astray.


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## CosmoCortney (Oct 29, 2018)

For me all theistic religions are equally outlandish.
But as long as religious people don't harm themselves or any others by their religious believes it doesn't bother me. I also disagree with religious influences on politics. 


TerribleTy27 said:


> Love your God with all your heart soul mind and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.


In my point of view our universe has started with the big bang. Before the big bang there was no matter, space and time. Without time there couldn't have been any time for god creating the big bang, neither any time for god to be created. 
Got this way of thinking after reading Stephen Hawking.
So.. it is up to me who I love.


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## Deleted User (Oct 29, 2018)

CosmoCortney said:


> So.. it is up to me who I love


Nobody's saying you have to do it. I was simply pointing out that it's a good philosophy.


CosmoCortney said:


> In my point of view our universe has started with the big bang. Before the big bang there was no matter, space and time. Without time there couldn't have been any time for god creating the big bang, neither any time for god to be created.
> Got this way of thinking after reading Stephen Hawking.
> So.. it is up to me who I love.


No offense man, but you're saying that out of nowhere, before there was time and matter, there was a magizcal explosion that created the universe? Even among atheist scientists, nobody actually believes the Big Bang. I'm not saying that the only possibility is that there's a magic man in the sky, but even more... ridiculous is the idea the universe magically popped into existence.


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## gnmmarechal (Oct 29, 2018)

Personally, I believe that religion as a whole is a very obsolete and dangerous concept, and we'd be better off without it.


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## bodefuceta (Oct 29, 2018)

It is the timeless and eternal religion of the european people. All that was before it's existence, has guided Europe to this path. But the european people are dieing, and christianity may as well be all that remains from us in 1000 years, as was catholicism to the romans.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 29, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> Even among atheist scientists, nobody actually believes the Big Bang


Oh? I thought it was a near universally accepted model among all the relevant physicists, cosmologists...

That said much like evolution vs the start of life (a different concept with multiple competing ideas -- abiogenesis, panspermia...) there is a difference between universal expansion and the discussions of what came before the big bang (some kind of cyclic universe or extradimensional weirdness being two of the more interesting things). This is before we even discuss the various dark things and all that jazz, in this case dark energy being the more relevant


The series it is part of is great


and because why not


As for "it's a good philosophy" where "Love your God with all your heart soul mind and strength" is it then nah.
10 minutes is probably where the proper response to the above comes in but the whole thing is good


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## Subtle Demise (Oct 29, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> Even among atheist scientists, nobody actually believes the Big Bang. I'm not saying that the only possibility is that there's a magic man in the sky, but even more... ridiculous is the idea the universe magically popped into existence.


It didn't just magically pop into existence. The theory is that all matter existed in a singularity, and then it rapidly expanded (why did this happen? Not sure, but we'll never know all the answers). This may not even be the first incarnation of the universe. It is also my belief that time is a man-made concept.


bodefuceta said:


> It is the timeless and eternal religion of the european people. All that was before it's existence, has guided Europe to this path. But the european people are dieing, and christianity may as well be all that remains from us in 1000 years, as was catholicism to the romans.


It's actually pretty new compared to all the religions that came before it.


FAST6191 said:


> Oh? I thought it was a near universally accepted model among all the relevant physicists, cosmologists...


That must be one of those things that get passed around at churches, same as the whole Darwin recanting evolution on his deathbed.


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## Deleted User (Oct 29, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> Oh? I thought it was a near universally accepted model among all the relevant physicists, cosmologists...
> 
> That said much like evolution vs the start of life (a different concept with multiple competing ideas -- abiogenesis, panspermia...) there is a difference between universal expansion and the discussions of what came before the big bang (some kind of cyclic universe or extradimensional weirdness being two of the more interesting things). This is before we even discuss the various dark things and all that jazz, in this case dark energy being the more relevant
> 
> ...






Subtle Demise said:


> It didn't just magically pop into existence. The theory is that all matter existed in a singularity, and then it rapidly expanded (why did this happen? Not sure, but we'll never know all the answers). This may not even be the first incarnation of the universe. It is also my belief that time is a man-made concept.
> 
> It's actually pretty new compared to all the religions that came before it.
> 
> That must be one of those things that get passed around at churches, same as the whole Darwin recanting evolution on his deathbed.



You missed the post I was replying to.



CosmoCortney said:


> For me all theistic religions are equally outlandish.
> But as long as religious people don't harm themselves or any others by their religious believes it doesn't bother me. I also disagree with religious influences on politics.
> 
> In my point of view our universe has started with the big bang. Before the big bang there was no matter, space and time. Without time there couldn't have been any time for god creating the big bang, neither any time for god to be created.
> ...



I was talking not about the Big Bang in its current incarnation, but the one CosmoCortney appears to be speaking of. Apologies for any misunderstanding.


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## Bowsette (Oct 31, 2018)

I think God doesnt exist.
But Religion still can help people through hard times so i guess religion can be a good thing but is also often pretty bad (killing and stuff).


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## Ratatattat (Oct 31, 2018)

Sad world if there is no God.
Not sad for you, your dead forever.
But sad world for those who might hope to see you again.
Sad world if there is no God.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



CosmoCortney said:


> For me all theistic religions are equally outlandish.
> But as long as religious people don't harm themselves or any others by their religious believes it doesn't bother me. I also disagree with religious influences on politics.
> 
> In my point of view our universe has started with the big bang. Before the big bang there was no matter, space and time. Without time there couldn't have been any time for god creating the big bang, neither any time for god to be created.
> ...



If there was a God that created the universe then I would assume he created the components of the universe which is energy(matter) and time. There would be no need for those components to preexist because God created them. So I don't get your argument that God would have had to create himself.


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## JaapDaniels (Oct 31, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Sad world if there is no God.
> Not sad for you, your dead forever.
> But sad world for those who might hope to see you again.
> Sad world if there is no God.
> ...


do you really wanna see your grand grand grand grand father? is that so sad?
keeping hold af a past, not letting the dead rest?
if a god exists it means every one that would have done his bidding keeps living forever.
just a simple idea for the christians under us...
that means about 90% europes population for at least 1500 years (those not conforming this religion were brought to justice by the church, and it meant death penalty). either the idea of one big house for us all or that garden of eden, there's gonna be a problem.
i mean we're all gonna be struck together, all seeing the same styles and thanking the master for being there with us keeping us alive,forever... see it as being old in a commune building, but then not just with that crazy cat lady, but 3 barking dog ladies, one kitchen, one artist, one leader, one... it sounds nice?
oke, we've got this on earth in some countries... we had germany a few years back here in europe, is that really to be called paradise? following one person because he's such a good guy?
is it so bad the death need rest?
yes you'll leave some day, and yes you'll be missed one day.
but you will be in thier hearts forever, not having an afterlife doesn't mean you'll be degraded to nothing.
you'll always be the base they built on.

the other term then...

if there's only space, then there's nothing to support a being...
if there's no star, there's no gravety....
if there's no air movement, there's no sound...
if we're created in his image, why doesn't my voice work like his?
if he's so almighty, then why did he punish creatures of his making for what he could've forseen?
if he's forseeing, then why don't he help out?
if he cares so much for his creation why doesn't he clearly show wht god is the real god?
why does he hate at least 5% of his creation for loving the same sex?
why does he hate 75X of his creation for not being able to see him being the real god?
why does he keeps pushing us into war if he created us?
why is the one creature made in his example the most distructive being in the universe?


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## Ratatattat (Oct 31, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> do you really wanna see your grand grand grand grand father? is that so sad?
> keeping hold af a past, not letting the dead rest?
> if a god exists it means every one that would have done his bidding keeps living forever.
> just a simple idea for the christians under us...
> ...



Quit perceiving the universe as what there was before it. You don't know.
Gravity created stars not the other way around.
So I can't hear you even though your blowing a lot of hot air.
How do you know it doesn't?
Who said God foresees. Did he tell you?
Maybe thats not how it works.
Who said he does. You?
Who said he hates? 
I think maybe we push ourselves into war.
Well you got that one right.
Just maybe your blaming the wrong one.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 31, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Who said God foresees. Did he tell you?
> Maybe thats not how it works.
> Who said he does. You?
> Who said he hates?


So an all seeing, all powerful being existing eternally past and forward can't predict/know things? Seems odd. As for the source of that... it seems to be a fairly key tenet of the religions in question. https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...-the-bible-teach-about-the-nature-of-god-what seems like a fairly well sourced article.
Similarly said all seeing, all powerful being (one that created humans and presumably has a perfect knowledge of biology) allowing such things to happen where they could be trivially fixed (all powerful and all that) would speak to an extreme callousness.[/QUOTE]


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## bi388 (Oct 31, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Sad world if there is no God.
> Not sad for you, your dead forever.
> But sad world for those who might hope to see you again.
> Sad world if there is no God.


Well that should be motivation to make sure you make good use of the time you have. You dont know whether you will be able to see someone again after they die, so make sure that if that were to happen then you are content with the time you have spent with them. Live life to the fullest assuming you wont get anything after, and then the world isnt sad.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 31, 2018)

Courtesy of Stephen Fry.



			
				some god squad sales pitching type said:
			
		

> So in the afterlife you get to see all your family again



Reply
But what if I have been good?


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## XorTroll (Oct 31, 2018)

Religion was originated on a time when science didn't exist, so it was created based mostly on myths and legends (although it has adapted and become more "modern" the last decades), but despite being atheist I agree with the philosophy Jesus had, but not those facts which insist on having to pray for a non-existant divinity. Although God could exist, it doesn't seem he/she/it/whatever exists or will exist. It's simply lack of evidence.
I've studied on a catholic school and studied religion there for many years, and that is what made me atheist. You really need to know how something works before you critizise it.


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## FAST6191 (Oct 31, 2018)

XorTroll said:


> I've studied on a catholic school and studied religion there for many years, and that is what made me atheist. You really need to know how something works before you critizise it.


While "no faster way to becoming an atheist than actually reading [insert holy book]" I don't know if I would go so far as to say "really need to know". You might need to really know law before you go toe to toe with a lawyer in their field, similarly your doctor probably knows much about medicine (been watching US medicine adverts where I am invited to tell or ask my doctor about certain medicines... quite odd) and thus your opinion is of limited value in many regards, however for most religion I would say basic reading comprehension is about all that is needed.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 1, 2018)

Sad world. There is no God. You can't physically prove it.
Sad world. There is no Faith. You can't physically prove it.
Sad world. There is no Love. You can't physically prove it.
And on and on get my point?

"Science deals with testable hypotheses, i.e. ideas that are falsifiable through prediction and experiment. As it is only possible to interact with the contents of the Universe, it is essentially impossible to ask a scientific question about what is external to the Universe, whether spatially or temporally (assuming either is even possible).


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## JaapDaniels (Nov 1, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Sad world. There is no God. You can't physically prove it.
> Sad world. There is no Faith. You can't physically prove it.
> Sad world. There is no Love. You can't physically prove it.
> And on and on get my point?
> ...


It's a sad world if we take for granted that someone is morally wrong just because a book tells us.
It's a sad world if we don't take our responsibilities to mother nature because we should not worry cause our god will provide.
It's a sad world if we make war for a book.
It's a sad world if kill love in the name of a god.
It's a sad world if we keep lying to children for they might not be able to deal with the trauma's life will bring.
It's a sad world if god ever excisted, for he doesn't care for the living now.
It's a sad world if we life for ever, since it's allready impossible for us to get enought food, drinks, air and living space for those who life today.
get my point?


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## FAST6191 (Nov 1, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Sad world. There is no God. You can't physically prove it.
> Sad world. There is no Faith. You can't physically prove it.
> Sad world. There is no Love. You can't physically prove it.
> And on and on get my point?
> ...



Are we back with the agnosticism thing again? I already did that. https://gbatemp.net/threads/whats-your-general-opinion-of-christianity.519943/page-9#post-8333534
I would struggle to presently prove anything outside the universe, however there are thousands of competing and incompatible religions to pick from, and infinite if I care to generate such things. All the major world religions have demonstrably false books and a history of attempting to control people (or are offshoots of that) and we have no evidence that any action was ever taken by such a being (unless such a being truly embraces chaos, in which case they are pointless). As the claim of a god is then a very hard to make one it is not entirely illogical to go with as it is an outrageous claim I am going with "none" pending evidence of that.


Also where does faith and love come into that? I can see those in an MRI machine in those that suffer such things (contrasting it with people that don't suffer from such maladies) and otherwise replicate things under controlled conditions or observations of the world.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 1, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> It's a sad world if we take for granted that someone is morally wrong just because a book tells us.
> It's a sad world if we don't take our responsibilities to mother nature because we should not worry cause our god will provide.
> It's a sad world if we make war for a book.
> It's a sad world if kill love in the name of a god.
> ...



Sorry but your still stuck in the physical world.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



FAST6191 said:


> Are we back with the agnosticism thing again? I already did that. https://gbatemp.net/threads/whats-your-general-opinion-of-christianity.519943/page-9#post-8333534
> I would struggle to presently prove anything outside the universe, however there are thousands of competing and incompatible religions to pick from, and infinite if I care to generate such things. All the major world religions have demonstrably false books and a history of attempting to control people (or are offshoots of that) and we have no evidence that any action was ever taken by such a being (unless such a being truly embraces chaos, in which case they are pointless). As the claim of a god is then a very hard to make one it is not entirely illogical to go with as it is an outrageous claim I am going with "none" pending evidence of that.
> 
> 
> Also where does faith and love come into that? I can see those in an MRI machine in those that suffer such things (contrasting it with people that don't suffer from such maladies) and otherwise replicate things under controlled conditions or observations of the world.



In what manner does MRI prove the existence of Love, Faith, etc? 
Are you suggesting that you can determine what a person is thinking "word for word" from an MRI. Kind of a stretch isn't it? Lets fill the court rooms with MRIs.


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## Varon12 (Nov 1, 2018)

Religion is a crutch for the weak that have a need they don't understand. Ignorance is Bliss.
Also anyone who takes their faith seriously should know the amount of hateful shitflinging they incur by whipping out their religion and flopping it in the breeze.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 1, 2018)

Varon12 said:


> Religion is a crutch for the weak that have a need they don't understand. Ignorance is Bliss.
> Also anyone who takes their faith seriously should know the amount of hateful shitflinging they incur by whipping out their religion and flopping it in the breeze.



Ignorance is Bliss. Goes both ways.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 2, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> In what manner does MRI prove the existence of Love, Faith, etc?
> Are you suggesting that you can determine what a person is thinking "word for word" from an MRI. Kind of a stretch isn't it? Lets fill the court rooms with MRIs.


MRI, observational studies, biopsies and more can be done on people in love and not in love, said studies produce things you can look for, things which you can reliably find in other random people in the future also in love and find in those that are not suffering such conditions.
Faith is a bit harder to do tests with (most people don't tend to repeatedly go in and out of it which leaves you with things like twin studies, defects, long term, more correlative and such methods) but again you can find things in sufferers that you won't find in those that don't have such afflictions.

I have no idea how you got word for word from that. Mind you I am at a loss for why human states of mind have anything to say about the nature of the universe.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 2, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> MRI, observational studies, biopsies and more can be done on people in love and not in love, said studies produce things you can look for, things which you can reliably find in other random people in the future also in love and find in those that are not suffering such conditions.
> Faith is a bit harder to do tests with (most people don't tend to repeatedly go in and out of it which leaves you with things like twin studies, defects, long term, more correlative and such methods) but again you can find things in sufferers that you won't find in those that don't have such afflictions.
> 
> I have no idea how you got word for word from that. Mind you I am at a loss for why human states of mind have anything to say about the nature of the universe.



Simply put its because there are some things that you cannot prove their existence but does not mean they don't exist. I'm sure we agree that love exists but to prove it physically is impossible with today's technology. What you see on an MRI is a location thing but not specific enough to positively validate it exactness. The determination of love is specific to each person so when its love for one it might not be for another. Yet they probably do have similar location patterns. At best an educated guess but not a physical proof.

There a some on here who say there is NO GOD. That's a statement of fact not a opinion. A statement of fact requires proof (I'm sure you would agree to that). I ask for that proof and they have not been able to do that.
I tried to show how there are other things in our existence that cannot be proved physically (like love, faith, God) but we know or feel we know they exist. Since even science has no proof of what was or wasn't before the "Big Bang" then how do we know that the Big Bang was not created by something we might interpret as a God?


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## Viri (Nov 2, 2018)

If more people actually followed the 10 Commandments, the world actually would be a better place. You know, don't cheat on your spouse, don't fucking kill anyone, don't steal(heh guilty if piracy counts as stealing). Respect your parents. It's too bad a lot of Christians don't follow them.


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## Subtle Demise (Nov 2, 2018)

@Ratatattat 

Love and empathy and similar emotions are from an excess of oxytocin and dopamine in the brain. That's why drugs like weed and MDMA (more commonly known as ecstasy) elicit such exaggerated forms of those emotions; they pretty much flood the brain with those chemicals.


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## The Catboy (Nov 2, 2018)

Jayro said:


> Religion as a whole is just shit.


I am not targetting you, but more this mindset. I often find people want to consider religion to be something horrible and that it's inherently the problem, but that's really only part of a bigger problem. Religions are often the justification to an action, but not often the cause of the action or often only part of the cause. People often use Christianity as an excuse to willful ignorance, often choosing to believe that anything they don't agree with is somehow inherently against their beliefs. Even when in reality their actions completely contradict their beliefs. Religion is often sighted as a justification for everything from persecuting people to wars. When those often are deeply rooted in issues like politics, economics, resources and sometimes outright hatred of different people with religion just being a blanket justification for these issues. People literally do the same thing with every single religion. I know countless other Satanists who tell me I am "not Satanic" and I am "just a reverse-Christian," because I am not a LaVeyan Satanist. It's worth noting that most LaVeyan Satanists don't consider the practice to be a religion, but a philosophy. So they basically justify their distaste for me with a philosophy. Which leads me to my point, it's not religion's fault that people are horrible. People are going to find something to justify their actions, justify negative ideologies, and just be horrible people. Religion isn't inherently evil, it's what people do in the name of it that is.


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## smf (Nov 2, 2018)

Viri said:


> If more people actually followed the 10 Commandments, the world actually would be a better place. You know, don't cheat on your spouse, don't fucking kill anyone, don't steal(heh guilty if piracy counts as stealing). Respect your parents. It's too bad a lot of Christians don't follow them.



Everyones a sinner.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 2, 2018)

Viri said:


> If more people actually followed the 10 Commandments, the world actually would be a better place. You know, don't cheat on your spouse, don't fucking kill anyone, don't steal(heh guilty if piracy counts as stealing). Respect your parents. It's too bad a lot of Christians don't follow them.



I agree. But its not only some Christians. Man is still attached to his animalistic past.
You don't have to be associated to a group to be a fox. There are plenty of foxes to go around.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lilith Valentine said:


> I am not targetting you, but more this mindset. I often find people want to consider religion to be something horrible and that it's inherently the problem, but that's really only part of a bigger problem. Religions are often the justification to an action, but not often the cause of the action or often only part of the cause. People often use Christianity as an excuse to willful ignorance, often choosing to believe that anything they don't agree with is somehow inherently against their beliefs. Even when in reality their actions completely contradict their beliefs. Religion is often sighted as a justification for everything from persecuting people, to wars. When in reality those often are deeply rooted in issues like politics, economics, and sometimes outright hatred of different people. People literally do the same thing with every single religion. I know countless other Satanists who tell me I am "not Satanic" and I am "just a reverse-Christian," because I am not a LaVeyan Satanist. It's worth noting that most LaVeyan Satanists don't consider the practice to be a religion, but a philosophy. So they basically justify their distaste for me with a philosophy. Which leads me to my point, it's not religion's fault that people are horrible. People are going to find something to justify their actions, justify negative ideologies, and just be horrible people. Religion isn't inherently evil, it's what people do in the name of it that is.



Well said.


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## Viri (Nov 2, 2018)

smf said:


> Everyones a sinner.


I know. But, the world would still be a better place if people did follow the 10 Commandments. Basically they tell you to not be a dick.


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## Subtle Demise (Nov 2, 2018)

Viri said:


> I know. But, the world would still be a better place if people did follow the 10 Commandments. Basically they tell you to not be a dick.


Yeah but the people in the Bible and even God himself didn't follow them.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 2, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Simply put its because there are some things that you cannot prove their existence but does not mean they don't exist. I'm sure we agree that love exists but to prove it physically is impossible with today's technology. What you see on an MRI is a location thing but not specific enough to positively validate it exactness. The determination of love is specific to each person so when its love for one it might not be for another. Yet they probably do have similar location patterns. At best an educated guess but not a physical proof.
> 
> There a some on here who say there is NO GOD. That's a statement of fact not a opinion. A statement of fact requires proof (I'm sure you would agree to that). I ask for that proof and they have not been able to do that.
> I tried to show how there are other things in our existence that cannot be proved physically (like love, faith, God) but we know or feel we know they exist. Since even science has no proof of what was or wasn't before the "Big Bang" then how do we know that the Big Bang was not created by something we might interpret as a God?



You can prove love and faith easily enough. There are many markers and tells by which you can demonstrate someone has either affliction, said tells can predict things and seemingly be found in historical records as well -- being common enough afflictions there are thousands of accounts and hours of video footage made long before modern psychology and such figured out the tests.

Equally not being able to prove something does not mean the thousands of years of utter nonsense that various people purporting to do the Christianity, based on a thousand or more year old book (with notes copied from even older books), translated a bunch of times and today without context for a lot of people (I have seen a camel, only in a zoo though) is anything close to correct. Indeed for it to be so would be incredibly unlikely given what we know now.
The claim that there is a god as dictated by the bible is then an outrageous claim and general logic holds that outrageous claims are the ones that need to be proven and it is fine to disbelieve them pending such proof.
Or if you prefer the sock on my floor just turned into a balloon and rose up to the ceiling.
It is not impossible that the billions of atoms* in my sock suddenly decided to decay into a lighter than air gas and a means to contain them that was similarly lighter than air -- radioactive decay, quantum tunnelling and other things happen all the time and we have models that make use of them that work for general consumer products produced by the millions even. However for me to demand that you afford equal credence be given to said statement given how improbable it is would be ridiculous. Many then make the same logical leap with the bible -- it is demonstrably full of nonsense and has large gaps on things that it should really cover if it is to be a guide to living in the modern world. Why then pay it any more attention than I might give Shakespeare or something?

*choice video





Viri said:


> If more people actually followed the 10 Commandments, the world actually would be a better place. You know, don't cheat on your spouse, don't fucking kill anyone, don't steal(heh guilty if piracy counts as stealing). Respect your parents. It's too bad a lot of Christians don't follow them.



I know I did it before but


and the bible says surprisingly little about the matter of intellectual property. Free reign there then.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 2, 2018)

Viri said:


> I know. But, the world would still be a better place if people did follow the 10 Commandments. Basically they tell you to not be a dick.



The two most societal influential control mechanisms are Government and Religion. Both were invented to try and stem our barbaric past and create positive social behavior. Yes there are those who abused, and still do, their power inside those mechanisms. Blame should be placed on the abuser not the mechanism.


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## SouzetsuAerir (Nov 2, 2018)

Being of a pagan religion (Asatru) it's everyone's right to believe or unbelieve whatever they feel is right. I do feel that Christianity is dwindling in numbers due to the fact most of them think that their oppinion is above all else and society today resents that sort of thing.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 2, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> You can prove love and faith easily enough. There are many markers and tells by which you can demonstrate someone has either affliction, said tells can predict things and seemingly be found in historical records as well -- being common enough afflictions there are thousands of accounts and hours of video footage made long before modern psychology and such figured out the tests.
> 
> Equally not being able to prove something does not mean the thousands of years of utter nonsense that various people purporting to do the Christianity, based on a thousand or more year old book (with notes copied from even older books), translated a bunch of times and today without context for a lot of people (I have seen a camel, only in a zoo though) is anything close to correct. Indeed for it to be so would be incredibly unlikely given what we know now.
> The claim that there is a god as dictated by the bible is then an outrageous claim and general logic holds that outrageous claims are the ones that need to be proven and it is fine to disbelieve them pending such proof.
> ...






I believe there is love but I cannot factually prove it exists nor can I disprove it. I can hug someone and tell them I love them. But its up to them to believe or not, they have to trust me. And with today's divorce rate I'd say there is a few who say they love but don't. Just like you cannot prove there is NO GOD other than to say its your opinion or recite some long diatribe about how inept the bible or other religious documents are.
Most religious documents were written with the writers having very little scientific knowledge. They described things as would be relevant to the intelligence of the time. Sure they got a lot of things wrong or poorly described. They were talking to the people of the time as best they could. 

Back to the original question. Where is your proof the is "NO GOD?"

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



SouzetsuAerir said:


> Being of a pagan religion (Asatru) it's everyone's right to believe or unbelieve whatever they feel is right. I do feel that Christianity is dwindling in numbers due to the fact most of them think that their oppinion is above all else and society today resents that sort of thing.



Probably correct but I don't understand how standing up for your particular religion is above all else? If someone attacked your belief and you defended it is that "above all else". I mean what would you expect?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Subtle Demise said:


> Yeah but the people in the Bible and even God himself didn't follow them.



How do you know that?


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## Glyptofane (Nov 2, 2018)

To further elaborate, I don't really acknowledge the authors or main characters in the Bible as being human. It would be the same thing as me worshipping a chimpanzee, and while I like those, I'm forced to realize they'd rip my face and nuts off, given the chance.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 2, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> I believe there is love but I cannot factually prove it exists nor can I disprove it. I can hug someone and tell them I love them. But its up to them to believe or not, they have to trust me. And with today's divorce rate I'd say there is a few who say they love but don't. Just like you cannot prove there is NO GOD other than to say its your opinion or recite some long diatribe about how inept the bible or other religious documents are.
> Most religious documents were written with the writers having very little scientific knowledge. They described things as would be relevant to the intelligence of the time. Sure they got a lot of things wrong or poorly described. They were talking to the people of the time as best they could.
> 
> Back to the original question. Where is your proof the is "NO GOD?"



I can observe physical reactions, can slice into brains and observe chemicals going on, I can reliably predict behaviours in people of all cultures (even uncontacted tribes in a forest somewhere), as far as we can tell such reactions are hard to fake (pretty much only certain sociopaths can manage it) and people are hardwired to detect fakes (autistic people commonly have trouble here but most do not) and respond to the cues (blushing, dilating pupils, vocal stuttering, awkward or predictable series of physical motions...). We can observe somewhat lesser versions of this in other animals as well. If that is not real, provable, demonstrable and so forth I don't know what is. You can do the same with faith but it is a bit harder as the sample size and variability is smaller (people go in and out of love a lot overall, faith is a less common and less commonly changing thing), though you are certainly not without options -- twin studies, brain injury, scans of similar populations with and without...

Divorce wise. What does that have to do with the price of chips? One partner for life is not observed in the animal world. Serial monogamy is a different matter but seemingly not the only one.

I agree most thousands of years old religious documents were not written with the modern understanding of science, I have said as such all along. However if people are going to want to tell me they were new and exciting revelations then, the word of some mystical being and reflect the nature of reality then I am going to call bullshit. If it is not the infallible word of a mystical being (which is what quite a few have claimed and held to be fundamental to being a member of the religion) it is just another book and another philosophy and I have already dismissed millions of those.

My proof of no gods? I don't need any. Nobody has ever made a reasonable claim that there is one.


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## Subtle Demise (Nov 2, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> How do you know that?


There is so much murder in the Bible, some of it directly by God or commanded by him. He's tricked his followers to test their faith. Made bets with the devil. He would smite one civilization for sexual depravity, but then when he saves one family from the doomed city, he turns the dude's wife into salt for looking back, but did nothing to his daughters when they got their dad all fucked up and raped him.


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## smf (Nov 2, 2018)

Viri said:


> I know. But, the world would still be a better place if people did follow the 10 Commandments. Basically they tell you to not be a dick.



Sure, the last 5 are great. The first 5 aren't any help.

Remember the sabbath is ok if you interpret it as "take some time off during the week to spend with loved ones". It doesn't have to be Sunday.



Ratatattat said:


> I believe there is love but I cannot factually prove it exists nor can I disprove it.



Love is a feeling, you can prove it exists from your feelings and your actions.



Ratatattat said:


> And with today's divorce rate I'd say there is a few who say they love but don't.



Love is transitory, the main difference now is that women don't have to stay with men for money.



Ratatattat said:


> Just like you cannot prove there is NO GOD other than to say its your opinion or recite some long diatribe about how inept the bible or other religious documents are.



You can't prove there is a god, so what do you expect us to believe?



Ratatattat said:


> Most religious documents were written with the writers having very little scientific knowledge. They described things as would be relevant to the intelligence of the time.



I thought the bible was supposed to be the word of god, why would the writers scientific knowledge be relevant?



Ratatattat said:


> Sure they got a lot of things wrong or poorly described. They were talking to the people of the time as best they could.



Maybe god was testing you, like when he hid the dinosaur bones in the ground?

I've heard your arguments before, it's what a lot of people in the church say. The problem is that you get sold a logical fallacy but you believe it because you believe in god, then you believe the fallacy is a good argument.


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## JaapDaniels (Nov 2, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Sorry but your still stuck in the physical world.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


we're all stuck in the phisical world, it's called reality.
and we can't see all words in MRI, but we can see where there's activity in the brain on MRI.
we can seewhat part of each brain is utilized for what fuction.
it's like algebra, you might not see exact words, but one can see parallels.
the part active for love towards a person is not the same as it comes to love in a holy beïng.
when a child talkes about a fantasy friend, it activates the same parts of the brain when it comes to fate.
when a child talkes about a real life friend it's active in a different part of it's brain.
the same goes for laws of science/nature and laws of a holy book.
the detailles around how to explain more specific is hard for me since english is a second language of mine and i'm not a doctor.
i can only describe the parts i understood when a doctor explained it to me once.


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## mammastuffing (Nov 2, 2018)

I think christianity along with most other religions have crippled society with its anti-science mentality. I also think the idea of original sin and the condonement of slavery is extremely immoral.


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## smf (Nov 2, 2018)

JaapDaniels said:


> and we can't see all words in MRI



Yet.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-07-neuroscience-words-brain.html


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## Ratatattat (Nov 2, 2018)

smf said:


> Sure, the last 5 are great. The first 5 aren't any help.




#You can't prove there is a god, so what do you expect us to believe?

You can't prove there isn't so it would appear we are in the same boat.
I have never said there was a GOD. I just asked those who stated there is NO GOD to prove it.

#I thought the bible was supposed to be the word of god, why would the writers scientific knowledge be relevant?

Because it was written to be understood by those of that time and understanding. Many things were magical to them.

#Maybe god was testing you, like when he hid the dinosaur bones in the ground?

Maybe GOD is testing you since you cannot prove he doesn't exist. 
Maybe that's why there a quarter of a nano second that even science doesn't understand.


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## JaapDaniels (Nov 2, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> #You can't prove there is a god, so what do you expect us to believe?
> 
> You can't prove there isn't so it would appear we are in the same boat.
> I have never said there was a GOD. I just asked those who stated there is NO GOD to prove it.
> ...


we proved about as much as there's to prove, but the maxic out of nowhere new world...
you've got all prove there, but you keep pushing new ideas with no base, to keep searchin for a little, i can't even call it desperate, hope.
you're using arguments that can be used on dracula, dragins, uniquehorns and whatever more.
as we agree this universe is the universe, then there's no god, not even in your idea...
we can surely find reasons to say maybe there's more, but that still will not ever mean there might be a god...
magic should be put back in the fairytale books, and not take innocent lives.


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## Heichart (Nov 2, 2018)

I think it's Ok, same goes for every religion. And the problem with every religion is humans in general, where they succumb to (relative) power and become full of vanity.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 2, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> #You can't prove there is a god, so what do you expect us to believe?
> 
> You can't prove there isn't so it would appear we are in the same boat.
> I have never said there was a GOD. I just asked those who stated there is NO GOD to prove it.
> ...



It is not in the same boat at all.

The idea of a god existing outside of time, space, life, death and reality but somehow caring about all those and not providing abundant evidence of it despite it being trivial (if that is even a meaningful term for them) is an absolutely absurd idea.

You know what else is an absurd idea. The feather I just picked out of my keyboard will cure cancer (all of them, all the different cancer cells and undo all the damage they cause before then). The onus would be on me to prove it. Nobody needs to waste any time considering it or debunking it as it is so ridiculous. You don't have to give an credence to those that believe in the feather.

I also feel the need to mention again there are millions of documented belief systems and infinite potential ones. Most of those conflict with one another as well. How does one resolve this?

As for the other part. So it is a fallible human book then, not one written by a divine being (and somehow able to be translated), not one that is supposed to be useful for all time to guide our lives and civilisations? OK then let's put it aside and develop something better.


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## smf (Nov 3, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> You can't prove there isn't so it would appear we are in the same boat.
> I have never said there was a GOD. I just asked those who stated there is NO GOD to prove it.



No we aren't in the same boat. You believe god without evidence, we disbelieve in god because there is compelling evidence that there is no god.



Ratatattat said:


> Because it was written to be understood by those of that time and understanding. Many things were magical to them.



Absolute rubbish argument made up by people who believe in god & tell it to other people who believe in god.

God wouldn't say things wrong just because people were stupid, the whole point about the bible is to educate people.

You really think god is that patronising?



Ratatattat said:


> Maybe GOD is testing you since you cannot prove he doesn't exist.



No, he's not testing me because there is no god. Prove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster doesn't exist.



Ratatattat said:


> Maybe that's why there a quarter of a nano second that even science doesn't understand.



Science has done a pretty good job at explaining a lot, but of course it can't tell you what happened at the start of the universe because nobody was around as we hadn't evolved yet. The description of creation in the bible is just ridiculous, I'm sure you'll argue that god just lied because people were stupid. I wouldn't even want a god who acts like that.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 3, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> It is not in the same boat at all.
> 
> The idea of a god existing outside of time, space, life, death and reality but somehow caring about all those and not providing abundant evidence of it despite it being trivial (if that is even a meaningful term for them) is an absolutely absurd idea.
> 
> ...



Just because you can imagine absurd ideas in no way proves anything.
But, still, no matter how absurd to you the idea of a GOD in no way is a proof or evidence that a GOD could not be.


smf said:


> No we aren't in the same boat. You believe god without evidence, we disbelieve in god because there is compelling evidence that there is no god.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you believe that if the Bible wasn't written with E=MC2 and that makes it rubbish. You obviously don't get that it had to be understandable for those of its time. Your confusing terminology with scientific accuracy. Of course 2000 years ago people didn't understand E=MC2. The description of the beginning is accurate relative to the terminology of the time. Is it scientifically accurate with today's knowledge, no. Doesn't mean it was a lie just means it was written to the understanding of the time.
You keep avoiding any proof with opinionated statements so it remains 'unproven' and thus 'possible'.
Since you cannot tell me what happened in the beginning how can you then state factually that it wasn't a GOD who created the universe. You can't.


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## smf (Nov 3, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Just because you can imagine absurd ideas in no way proves anything.
> But, still, no matter how absurd to you the idea of a GOD in no way is a proof or evidence that a GOD could not be.



But still more likely than GOD existing.



Ratatattat said:


> So you believe that if the Bible wasn't written with E=MC2 and that makes it rubbish. You obviously don't get that it had to be understandable for those of its time.



So gods own creation was too fragile to hear that dinosaurs came before adam and eve?

I wonder why he didn't create a more robust human being? Is it like people who go into relationships with those weaker than themselves, so they can control them?

Most American christians follow a religion that was invented 500 years ago, which is kinda.



Ratatattat said:


> Is it scientifically accurate with today's knowledge, no. Doesn't mean it was a lie just means it was written to the understanding of the time.



And when your wife finds sexy underwear that isn't hers on the back seat of your car and you try to explain how you're not having an affair, doesn't mean it's not a lie. But on the balance of probability, yes it's a lie.

If god had spent a few minutes to explain a bit of history, rather than waste time telling us how eve was made from adams rib, then we wouldn't be in this mess.



Ratatattat said:


> You keep avoiding any proof with opinionated statements so it remains 'unproven' and thus 'possible'.



You are being disingenuous. It's as impossible for me to disprove god as you can disprove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster. Sure you could claim the FSM was made up by Bobby Henderson, but the FSM may have used his noodly appendages to cause Bobby to think he was making it up while he is in fact real. Maybe FSM used satire to reveal himself, because humanity isn't ready to know his true self yet.

My theory is just as possible as yours. You think yours is more correct because loads of people also believe it, but mass delusions are very common. How you feel about GOD existing is a very poor indication of whether he exists.



Ratatattat said:


> Since you cannot tell me what happened in the beginning how can you then state factually that it wasn't a GOD who created the universe. You can't.



But it probably wasn't YOUR god. Statistically speaking you are pretty much guaranteed to be worshipping the wrong one. It's only an accident of where you were born that decides which religion you are indoctrinated into. Religion is all about controlling money.

You are of course sweeping the most important thing under the carpet, god didn't create the universe in the "beginning". The beginning must then be when god was created. If god always existed, then why can't the universe have always existed? Ocums razor tells us that this is most likely.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 3, 2018)

smf said:


> But still more likely than GOD existing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never said there was a GOD.
I only asked that someone prove factually that there isn't.
Until then the possibility there could be holds true.
Maybe the universe has always existed, doesn't prove either way about a GOD.
Its can be your opinion there is no GOD, But opinions are just that, not facts. 
Just like you say I have no scientific evidence there is a GOD, you don't have evidence that there isn't.

As for statistics:
A simple Metrix:
"There may or may not be a GOD:
I may or may not believe in him.
The only way I can lose is if there is a GOD and I do not believe in him."

Pascal


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## Subtle Demise (Nov 3, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Because it was written to be understood by those of that time and understanding. Many things were magical to them.


Except it's not even understandable today. Even the NIV is written in riddles. People study the Bible for years and years, and none of them can agree on what any of it actually means. Any interpretations of the Bible are based on the interpreter's confirmation bias. If you hold a belief, you can probably point to a verse of the bible and say that supports it, because it is often so vague and cryptic, it's easy to do. Your detractors could also point to other verses and say those contradict your belief, or even that your interpretation is incorrect. You would think God would impart some divine knowledge so people would stop messing up his holy word. People's souls could be at stake right?


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## Ratatattat (Nov 3, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> Except it's not even understandable today. Even the NIV is written in riddles. People study the Bible for years and years, and none of them can agree on what any of it actually means. Any interpretations of the Bible are based on the interpreter's confirmation bias. If you hold a belief, you can probably point to a verse of the bible and say that supports it, because it is often so vague and cryptic, it's easy to do. Your detractors could also point to other verses and say those contradict your belief, or even that your interpretation is incorrect. You would think God would impart some divine knowledge so people would stop messing up his holy word. People's souls could be at stake right?



And translated a million times into what is written today. Your correct no one today really understands it.
It was written by man with all its manlike imperfections.
From what I understand there is no GOD like requirement to understand the Bible.


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## Noctosphere (Nov 4, 2018)

last week, I saw that here in Quebec, 
there are still churches that offer the "homosexuality cure"
they do like an exorcism and all, 
"DEMON GET OUT OF THAT BODY"


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## FAST6191 (Nov 3, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> Just because you can imagine absurd ideas in no way proves anything.
> But, still, no matter how absurd to you the idea of a GOD in no way is a proof or evidence that a GOD could not be.
> 
> 
> ...




It was not a counter proof but a demonstration of the logic used to say why you don't need to take the wishy washy "oh well everybody has their own ideas and they are all equally valid" route and it is a rational and logical option to say gods do not exist. Pending evidence of a god existing there is no reason to say they do.

As for science stuff. If it is just a man written philosophy book full of metaphors then OK. However for well over a thousand years in essentially every branch* of Christianity they would have claimed, and still claim, that it was the word of said god and in many cases what happened to cause things to happen. There is metaphor and abstraction in the bible so I would say the strict literalist interpretations are silly but there are also claims with absolutely no scientific merit that you would be hard pressed to dismiss as metaphor and abstraction.

*if memory serves the earliest coptics tended to figure it reasonable advice, just a story book and all that, and went from there. However Roman Catholic, the various Orthodox movements, the various protestant movements... will also claim it is a divinely written book.


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## burial (Nov 7, 2018)

Arecaidian Fox said:


> Gandhi disputably has said something along the lines of, "I love your Christ, but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike Christ." While people can argue on whether or not he actually said that, it pretty much sums up my feelings. If you're a Christian and preach your religion, and actually follow those teachings of love and tolerance, I think that's just fine. It's when you start beating people overhead with the Bible that I get mad.



According to the new testament jesus is a massive cunt......


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## andeers (Nov 3, 2018)

It's the culprit of almost every social modern problem. It is obsolete.


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## Silent_Gunner (Nov 7, 2018)

I don't care about shit related to the Bible per se. I've been forced to grow up in a Christian household that, while not as strict as other households in my denomination (even though they wouldn't identify as a denomination, based on my investigations, they only do so to avoid getting into big trouble, IMHO), they still get triggered like the college snowflakes that the pastors speak so condescendingly towards, except it's over stuff like "Happy Holidays" as opposed to people saying Merry Christmas even though the holiday itself was essentially named such to appease the other religions that Catholicism was trying to replace, and over other such important things in life like music having a syncopatic beat (translation: rock music, which is what they call all "bad" music, including rap, metal, techno, country, and even CCM (Contemporary Christian Music)), and will tell you turn everything off if they hear a swear word. All in the name of raising new children in the "name of the Lord Jesus Christ to use them as arrows against the Satanic culture (this is known as Quiverfull culture, and only the fundamentalists in Christianity I'm aware of actually live this lifestyle. Yes, this is the kind of lifestyle the Duggars, even with Josh, promote as being somehow superior to all other family lifestyles, defending mistakes like Josh as "well, we're all sinners, and if you don't forgive the one who offended you, you're just bitter and need to get right with God. Just wanted to toss this out there)" where they still are the majority religion in the nation, aren't persecuted like any openly non-atheists in China, non-Muslims in any country in the Middle East not named Israel, and would love a persecution complex film like God's Not Dead 1 and 2 or War Room.

Worst of all, they also take issue with people like yours truly playing games like Grand Theft Auto, Yakuza, or Shin Megami Tensei (if they knew what the gist of most of the games in the franchise are, in essence) because Christians are to avoid of the "appearance of evil," even if they have no friends even at church because if someone else knows about what your parents consider to be "dirty laundry," then they might say something to someone else and get me into big trouble and have me toss the game/movies (movies would be more likely as they are more familiar with those) that I paid with money that I worked hard for away.

All in all, I have a very dishonest relationship with my parents and others because of this. I mean, how can one have an honest relationship when they're having to walk on eggshells to avoid triggering someone? Hence, why I said they act no differently from those they claim to criticize, except it's OK because they're trying to preach to people the truth of the Word of God, that their relationships outside of marriage are immoral, that men "acting/looking/sounding feminine" are sissies and that they need to be all masculine while women need to be submissive, know their place, and not "act masculine."

What I'm describing is definitely the worst of the fundamentalist culture that I've been forced to grow up in until today. While I'm not definitely out of it yet, I'm working towards making a bright future for not just myself but whoever my future waifu may be, where I can be independent of my family and anyone else inside of the culture. To say the reasons I hate it are also because of some events that happened personally to yours truly would be the understatement of my life atm!


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## smf (Nov 3, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> I never said there was a GOD.
> I only asked that someone prove factually that there isn't.



And I've asked that you prove factually that there isn't an FSM, but you've been unable to.



Ratatattat said:


> Until then the possibility there could be holds true.



It's possible, like it's possible that ghosts exist. The possibility is very low though, too low for me to join one of these cults.



Ratatattat said:


> Maybe the universe has always existed, doesn't prove either way about a GOD.



Well if the universe has always existed then god doesn't need to exist, because god is just a hand waving exercise to explain away the creation of the universe.

Once the universe exists then evolution takes care of the rest.



Ratatattat said:


> Just like you say I have no scientific evidence there is a GOD, you don't have evidence that there isn't.



The evidence you require is impossible to exist, the convention is therefore to disbelieve it until you can prove there is a GOD. The argument you are pushing is dishonest.



Ratatattat said:


> The only way I can lose is if there is a GOD and I do not believe in him."



I find that repulsive and repugnant. Lots of people have died because of their belief in GOD.

I'm certainly not going to delude myself purely to get into heaven. I'd probably pick the wrong one anyway and the second commandment is clear that believing the wrong GOD is a bad thing. Statistically being an atheist is likely to put me in a better position.


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## dAVID_ (Nov 3, 2018)

Ratatattat said:


> I never said there was a GOD.
> I only asked that someone prove factually that there isn't.
> Until then the possibility there could be holds true.
> Maybe the universe has always existed, doesn't prove either way about a GOD.
> ...


Pascal's wager doesn't solve the inminent "there are thousand of religions and they contradict each other" problem.
Pascal's wager isn't a proof.


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## Ratatattat (Nov 4, 2018)

dAVID_ said:


> Pascal's wager doesn't solve the inminent "there are thousand of religions and they contradict each other" problem.
> Pascal's wager isn't a proof.



Never stated to be a proof simply a choice metric.
Stating there are thousands of religions is irrelevant as in general most religious persons do not participate in more than one religion.
So the choice is relevant to them in their particular religious choice.


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## Mitch0305 (Nov 4, 2018)

There is no such thing as a "god" or a "sign of god" and the bible is fake same as koran and stuff the only real thing is hallucination and beings from outer space


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## froggestspirit (Nov 4, 2018)

Memories are a physical part of your brain, which stays on earth when you die. Your memories do not tranfer to the clouds like video game saves. Just because we have life now, does not mean we are entitled to having an afterlife. Some things are not comprehensible by us and religions seem to be made just to put opinionated reasoning to these mysteries.


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