# Harada talks Super Smash bros.



## Hyro-Sama (Aug 26, 2012)

In an interview, Katsuhiro Harada the creator of the Tekken series talks about why he believes Nintendo selected Namco Bandai to develop the next Super Smash Bros. entry. Harada touches on his experiences with the Tekken franchise that he believes makes him qualified for the job. He also mentions that behind the scenes, Nintendo and Namco have been developing a relationship.

Source


If the powers that be feel this isn't newsworthy then feel free to delete it and I'll re-post it Yuki's Smash Bros. thread.


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## Dork (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm really looking forward to this game, Nintendo and Namco have proved time and time again that they can push out masterpieces. I would kill for at least one Soulcalibur or Tekken character.


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## Shuji1987 (Aug 26, 2012)

Awesome. Nintendo and Namco having a relationship.


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## Black-Ice (Aug 26, 2012)

tekken is teh best fighter.


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## gamerjr (Aug 26, 2012)

I just don't want to be let down, not that they will but i'm just worried that we will have more 3rd party characters that needed. I still have only played sonic only a few times. I love him but not in SSB


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## Gahars (Aug 26, 2012)

The Tekken franchise is pretty fundamentally different from the Smash Bros. games (says Captain Obvious). It'll be interesting to see how their experience with the former impacts the latter.


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## Clarky (Aug 26, 2012)

Im kind of suprised how he mentions about Nintendo and Namco having a developing relationship...After that Pac-Man game they made for the GC exclusively using the GBA LInk Cable, the Mario Kart Arcade GP Games , allowing Namco to develope Star Fox Assault, allowing Link to be in Soul Calibur 2....you would think they was pretty close already, but whatever the future brings in shall be interesting to watch unfold


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## Felipe_9595 (Aug 26, 2012)

As long as i have something more similar to 64 or Melee and not another Brawl i am happy.


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## GameWinner (Aug 26, 2012)

Felipe_9595 said:


> As long as i have something more similar to 64 or Melee and not another Brawl i am happy.


Am I missing something here?
Brawl was fun, for me at least.


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## Felipe_9595 (Aug 26, 2012)

GameWinner said:


> Felipe_9595 said:
> 
> 
> > As long as i have something more similar to 64 or Melee and not another Brawl i am happy.
> ...



Fun? maybe. But Melee and 64 are way better. Brawl is way too slow.

Also, tripping.


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## stanleyopar2000 (Aug 26, 2012)

Felipe_9595 said:


> GameWinner said:
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> > Felipe_9595 said:
> ...



Also. Brawl+


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## YayMii (Aug 26, 2012)

GameWinner said:


> Am I missing something here?
> Brawl was fun, for me at least.


The game was fun, but the game was slower compared to the older games. One of the reasons being that they made the physics much floatier and got rid of the tricks that made Melee so fast-paced in the competitive scene.
Most casual players don't even realize how radically different it really is, but some even go out of their way to say that the changes were good (even though almost everyone in the competitive scene disagrees).


Felipe_9595 said:


> Also, tripping.


FYI, they added tripping to get rid of dash dancing (just like how they got rid of all the other tricks). Doesn't really change how dumb it is though.
Also, Project M.


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## triassic911 (Aug 26, 2012)

Haha I would rather have the dashing then tripping. Tripping was annoying!


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## Lucifer666 (Aug 26, 2012)

YayMii said:


> The game was fun, but the game was slower compared to the older games. One of the reasons being that they made the physics much floatier and got rid of the tricks that made Melee so fast-paced in the competitive scene.
> Most casual players don't even realize how radically different it really is, but some even go out of their way to say that the changes were good (even though almost everyone in the competitive scene disagrees).


Well is it wrong to consider myself a hardcode gamer but still agree Brawl was a step up from Melee?


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## triassic911 (Aug 26, 2012)

Lucifer666 said:


> YayMii said:
> 
> 
> > The game was fun, but the game was slower compared to the older games. One of the reasons being that they made the physics much floatier and got rid of the tricks that made Melee so fast-paced in the competitive scene.
> ...


Being that you are a hardcode gamer, I don't see why not!


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## YayMii (Aug 26, 2012)

Lucifer666 said:


> Well is it wrong to consider myself a hardcode gamer but still agree Brawl was a step up from Melee?


Gameplay-wise, or content-wise? Because I'd agree on the content side of things (Brawl did add a vast amount of content, after all). But personally I still think Melee was more fun.
Also, note that I used the words "most" and "_almost_ everyone".

EDIT: Also, when I say "casual player" I'm talking about those who were introduced to the series through Brawl, or those who don't play SSB religiously. I'm really loosely using the term.


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## Sterling (Aug 26, 2012)

YayMii said:


> GameWinner said:
> 
> 
> > Am I missing something here?
> ...



As a competitive Melee player, I agree with everything you've said. I cannot play Brawl. I'm good at it, but Melee is so much more fun IMO. Vanilla Brawl has way too much exploits that work against the balance while Melee's exploits help. My Wii destroys every Brawl disk I play so I've yet to be able to play it with a balancer mod (though not for lack of trying with pirated isos).


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## Felipe_9595 (Aug 26, 2012)

YayMii said:


> GameWinner said:
> 
> 
> > Am I missing something here?
> ...



Yeah i know, sakurai tried to get rid of as much ATs he could.

Also, yeah, only reason i boot up brawl is to load Project M.


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## Midna (Aug 26, 2012)

Most of the hate for Brawl comes from people jumping in with the tournament community's gripes with the game. At a technical level, Brawl is very flawed. Get good enough at it, and there enough little exploits that you can render the game completely fucking broken. Awful balance problems don't help either
It doesn't really affect you unless you're a pro. Carry on.


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## Felipe_9595 (Aug 26, 2012)

Midna said:


> Most of the hate for Brawl comes from people jumping in with the tournament community's gripes with the game. At a technical level, Brawl is very flawed. Get good enough at it, and there enough little exploits that you can render the game completely fucking broken. Awful balance problems don't help either
> It doesn't really affect you unless you're a pro. Carry on.



I began playing Melee with my friends when Brawl came out. We could play 3 Melee Free for alls with the time of 1 brawl match (and thats when we were complete noobs), Even without using Lcancel, wavedash or any of the Melee AT, any casual can notice the gigantic speed difference between the 2 games.


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## Hero-Link (Aug 26, 2012)

I still don't understand HOW this game can be considered a serious tournament game... This a party game, sure you can make tournaments with friends and whatnot.

But the main focus of this game is the same as Mario Kart, as Mario Strikers, etc.... Playing the game without any items, negating certain characters... how can you call that a fun game?

Street Fighter, Tekken, DOA, etc... now those can be played more seriously.

In my opinion, Melee was clearly the worse entry in the series as the game felt slower than the rest and didn't add as much as Brawl did to the original formula.

Brawl > SSB64 > Melee


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## yusuo (Aug 26, 2012)

Black-Ice said:


> tekken is teh best fighter.


I used to think that too, now I realise DOA trumpts it thanks to the fine timing on the reversals


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## KingVamp (Aug 26, 2012)

Hero-Link said:


> In my opinion, Melee was clearly the worse entry in the series as the game felt slower than the rest and didn't add as much as Brawl did to the original formula.



Imo, that's crazy.

SSB can be considered a "serious" tournament game just like any other fighting game.

I still think this Brawl hate is misplace. If you need exploits or to be heavier to play seriously then you are
doing it wrong.

I wonder if melee was Brawl and the old melee didn't exist, would it be getting so much hate?


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## Sterling (Aug 26, 2012)

KingVamp said:


> Hero-Link said:
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, Melee was clearly the worse entry in the series as the game felt slower than the rest and didn't add as much as Brawl did to the original formula.
> ...



The only problem is that anytime someone discovers an exploit, it's just hard to stop using it. I can't stop L-cancelling, or wave dashing myself. In vanilla Brawl I know how to use grab loops on every capable character. Many people feel really good about themselves when they can do it, and just can't stop themselves. Brawl is just riddled with exploits that make the game unfair and unfun to people who can play.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

yusuo said:


> fine timing on the reversals



The synonyms for "breasts" are getting harder and harder to follow these days.


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## triassic911 (Aug 26, 2012)

Hero-Link said:


> I still don't understand HOW this game can be considered a serious tournament game... This a party game, sure you can make tournaments with friends and whatnot.
> 
> But the main focus of this game is the same as Mario Kart, as Mario Strikers, etc.... Playing the game without any items, negating certain characters... how can you call that a fun game?
> 
> ...


You view it as a party game, and that is all. This game is a fighting game. Just because it has Nintendo characters, it doesn't make it any less of a competitive game. I can also call Street Fighter, or Tekken a party game. It's all about your personal view on it.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

triassic911 said:


> You view it as a party game, and that is all. This game is a fighting game. Just because it has Nintendo characters, it doesn't make it any less of a competitive game. I can also call Street Fighter, or Tekken a party game. It's all about your personal view on it.



The distinct lack of combos and horrible balancing is what makes it less competitive. Also the fact that in order to be considered "competitive" you have to take out everything that makes the game in any way unique or enjoyable. Also the entire part of "skill" in the game is based on exploits.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> triassic911 said:
> 
> 
> > You view it as a party game, and that is all. This game is a fighting game. Just because it has Nintendo characters, it doesn't make it any less of a competitive game. I can also call Street Fighter, or Tekken a party game. It's all about your personal view on it.
> ...


I don't agree with this, a game doesn't have to emulate Street Fighter to be competitive. Sure, there are imbalances and tiers and stuff, but I think this Smash Bros. is more about reaction time, Street Fighter is about memorizing combos and stuffs. I don't use any exploits in Smash Bros., I just roll around people until I have a good chance to hit. Sure it's not super technical, it isn't trying to be. It's about reflexes, for me at least.


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## Sterling (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> triassic911 said:
> 
> 
> > You view it as a party game, and that is all. This game is a fighting game. Just because it has Nintendo characters, it doesn't make it any less of a competitive game. I can also call Street Fighter, or Tekken a party game. It's all about your personal view on it.
> ...



You're wrong about the no combos thing. If every fighter had specific button presses to make combos, the genre would be very stale by now. Super Smash Bros has never been about press 'x' button precisely at 'x' time after 'x' button press for massive damage. It's always put emphasis on free combos. You can get creative in how or when you smack someone, and the game actually wants you to use a different one every time since. Otherwise it'll reduce your damage. SSB is 10x more fun than every fighter out there IMO.


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## triassic911 (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> triassic911 said:
> 
> 
> > You view it as a party game, and that is all. This game is a fighting game. Just because it has Nintendo characters, it doesn't make it any less of a competitive game. I can also call Street Fighter, or Tekken a party game. It's all about your personal view on it.
> ...


That's your opinion on it.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

Sterling said:


> You're wrong about the no combos thing. If every fighter had specific button presses to make combos, the genre would be very stale by now. Super Smash Bros has never been about press 'x' button precisely at 'x' time after 'x' button press for massive damage. It's always put emphasis on free combos. You can get creative in how or when you smack someone, and the game actually wants you to use a different one every time since. Otherwise it'll reduce your damage. SSB is 10x more fun than every fighter out there IMO.



You do realize the point of fighting games is combos and that the strategy behind it is being able to chain specific combos together and know when to use them at the right time.

EDIT: And every fighter does have "specific button presses to make combos". Complaining about that aspect of fighters is like complaining about FPS games being in the first person.

SSB is indeed fun, I'm a big fan of the franchise and can play it for hours on end with friends. But do I find it to be a fighter? No.



Lanlan said:


> I don't agree with this, a game doesn't have to emulate Street Fighter to be competitive. Sure, there are imbalances and tiers and stuff, but I think this Smash Bros. is more about reaction time, Street Fighter is about memorizing combos and stuffs. I don't use any exploits in Smash Bros., I just roll around people until I have a good chance to hit. Sure it's not super technical, it isn't trying to be. It's about reflexes, for me at least.



Nor do all fighters emulate Street Fighter. Every person remotely familiar with fighters knows that there's different strategy between Street Fighter, BlazBlue, Marvel vs. Capcom, and Mortal Kombat. Or fighters are entirely different and are in a third person perspective like Tekken and Soul Calibur.

My point about the exploits is that people will say you're not a "hardcore player" if you don't memorize exploits in the game and you won't be considered "competitive worthy". You have to learn how to break the game in order to be considered "good" at it. In fighting games, skill is based on reflex, strategy, and precision.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Sterling said:
> 
> 
> > You're wrong about the no combos thing. If every fighter had specific button presses to make combos, the genre would be very stale by now. Super Smash Bros has never been about press 'x' button precisely at 'x' time after 'x' button press for massive damage. It's always put emphasis on free combos. You can get creative in how or when you smack someone, and the game actually wants you to use a different one every time since. Otherwise it'll reduce your damage. SSB is 10x more fun than every fighter out there IMO.
> ...


It's okay everyone, Guild doesn't actually mean any of this, he's just being sarcastic.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

Lanlan said:


> It's okay everyone, Guild doesn't actually mean any of this, he's just being sarcastic.



Amendment: I'm being sarcastic when I'm being a dick. Here I'm having a polite conversation and you've run out of points.

Now we're entering sarcastic territory.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Lanlan said:
> 
> 
> > It's okay everyone, Guild doesn't actually mean any of this, he's just being sarcastic.
> ...



Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing.
Back on topic, okay SSB isn't a fighting game in the sense of SF, MvC, Tekken, SC, or whatever, but it's still a fighting game. It may be its own genre of fighting game, but it's still a fighting game.


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## Anakir (Aug 26, 2012)

Namco working on this is the reason why I still have little hope for the game. Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother with it.

I'll stick with Melee and Project M. Project M is pretty much Smash 4 for me.


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## triassic911 (Aug 26, 2012)

Lanlan said:


> Guild McCommunist said:
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> 
> > Lanlan said:
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He is one of those guys who put out his opinion as if it were fact. Anyway, I also consider Smash Bros a fighting game, just as I would Tekken or Street fighter.


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## Anakir (Aug 26, 2012)

I'd call it its own genre if anything - platform fighter.


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## Sterling (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Sterling said:
> 
> 
> > You're wrong about the no combos thing. If every fighter had specific button presses to make combos, the genre would be very stale by now. Super Smash Bros has never been about press 'x' button precisely at 'x' time after 'x' button press for massive damage. It's always put emphasis on free combos. You can get creative in how or when you smack someone, and the game actually wants you to use a different one every time since. Otherwise it'll reduce your damage. SSB is 10x more fun than every fighter out there IMO.
> ...



You do realize that SSB uses the same concept without rigid combo maps right? A; A; B; B does not make a flashy double punch drop kick special. All this does in SSB is a character specific normal (punch, slash, etc.) and their special (bow, shieldbreaker, fireball). Let me name you a combo I use all the time with Shiek.

Dash; Grab + down; Neutral A with up; Neutral A with Diagonal up; Jump; Neutral A with up while in the Air. Visually this looks like a dash grab with a piledriver punctuated by two kicks and a flashy air finisher. At 100% damage and above you're close to being put into stage orbit. Now, tell me that this isn't a combo. Now, I can set up this easily, but it's also very avoidable. In a game like Tekken or Street Fighter, you can't freely dodge or block as you can in SSB. So not only is it harder to keep a special or a finisher from wrecking you, it's also harder to play against people who have memorized movesets and combo maps. It's the same in SSB, but someone who has the basics down can still face off against a better player and still have fun.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

Lanlan said:


> Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing.
> Back on topic, okay SSB isn't a fighting game in the sense of SF, MvC, Tekken, SC, or whatever, but it's still a fighting game. It may be its own genre of fighting game, but it's still a fighting game.



I've argued this point on many occasions, plenty of people here can attest to it. If I'm "arguing for the sake of arguing" I usually make a point to note that I'm playing devil's advocate or make it very clear that I'm just playing out the other side.



triassic911 said:


> He is one of those guys who put out his opinion as if it were fact.



And I assume you're one of those people who just can't make a solid point?

I mean I enter this conversation with points and in what I believe to be a respectful manner and people instantly go "WOW WHAT AN ASSHOLE". Remind me next time in an argument I should just start degrading people instantly.


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## Gahars (Aug 26, 2012)

Lanlan said:


> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> > Lanlan said:
> ...



So he offers his reasoning for why he doesn't consider the Smash Bros. franchise fighting games, and you respond by... just stating the opposite with nothing to support your opinion.

That's the argumentative equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Lanlan said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing.
> ...


I honestly have no clue what devil's advocate means. 

and @[member='Gahars']
It is a fighting game. Characters on engaging in close combat, you have to block, dodge, and hit your enemy.  Someone give a valid point as to why it's not a fighting game.


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## Gahars (Aug 26, 2012)

Lanlan said:


> Guild McCommunist said:
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> 
> > Lanlan said:
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That explains a lot, actually.



> and @[member='Gahars']
> It is a fighting game. Characters on engaging in close combat, you have to block, dodge, and hit your enemy.  Someone give a valid point as to why it's not a fighting game.



Guild gave several arguments. If you disagree, then respond to his points and address why exactly you believe he is wrong. This is how arguing goes.


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## YayMii (Aug 26, 2012)

Just to let you know, there are combos in SSB, but the removal of ATs in Brawl reduced them to only the basic combos.
And the only real difference separating it from other fighting games is that the focus is to knock the opponent out of the ring instead of depleting their health bar. There are fighting games that involve platforming, games that have some sort of lives system, etc. and those are still considered fighting games.


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## Rasas (Aug 26, 2012)

The early fighting games did not have combos but that is besides the point. Fighting games isn't about combos but the newer ones have them.
A lot of fighting games have tiers and if you use said low tier character against someone with equal or similar skill you will lose. Sure there is some or a lot of skill involved but some games are just about button mashing and other things.

Soul Calibur has rIng Out while it isn't the only way to win it is a way.

I'm not sure what your arguing about but why don't you guys stop it now.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

What makes a combo? A bunch of expertly timed button presses that performs the same move every time? I think of a combo as a bunch of attacks chained together. Which is very doable in SSB. Juggling is a combo. 
@Guild McCommunist what is your argument other than the combo thing? Cuz that's already been proven wrong a few times.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

Rasas said:


> The early fighting games did not have combos but that is besides the point. Fighting games isn't about combos but the newer ones have them.



If by "newer ones" you mean "in the past twenty years" then yes. I think we should change our definition of "newer" as well.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong or bad with SSB, I love the franchise and have played all the games for more hours than I can count. But I just find it to not be a fighter and a lot of the people who say it is are honestly annoying though. There's nothing wrong with the game not being a fighter.




Lanlan said:


> What makes a combo? A bunch of expertly timed button presses that performs the same move every time? I think of a combo as a bunch of attacks chained together. Which is very doable in SSB. Juggling is a combo.
> @Guild McCommunist what is your argument other than the combo thing? Cuz that's already been proven wrong a few times.



First off, many of the things that people claim making SSB a "fighter" often just takes away from the game. Oh yeah, it's "competitive"... if you limit the roster, take away items, and have only one stage. It's like playing Street Fighter as only Ryu with no hyper combos.

The games are also notoriously imbalanced. The lack of modern trimmings like active patching or balancing also make a lot of it permanent.

A combo means one attack flows into another. Hitting them and then having the other person being incompetent enough to not defend isn't a combo. You just hit them twice. A combo is, say, you flow three attacks into each other with no gap in between for a counter attack. Off the top of my head, you do a standard L-M-H combo with Chun-Li and then do one of her hyper combos. The three hits have no gap in between and your opponent is still staggering so the hyper combo hits.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I just find it to not be a fighter


Why?


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## EZ-Megaman (Aug 26, 2012)

Does it really matter how Guild classifies the game? I entered the topic expecting to read opinions about what Namco could do with the series.
In any case, I would like to see some mechanics from the Tales series added into SSB4. Namely the ability to execute a mode that makes you stronger when a gauge fills up, and you can use final smashes when the power up is activated. I think that would be a lot less cheaper than Smash Balls.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

EZ-Megaman said:


> Does it really matter how Guild classifies the game? I entered the topic expecting to read opinions about what Namco could do with the series.
> In any case, I would like to see some mechanics from the Tales series added into SSB4. Namely the ability to execute a mode that makes you stronger when a gauge fills up, and you can use final smashes when the power up is activated. I think that would be a lot less cheaper than Smash Balls.


Can you go away and let us argue in peace? It's rude to just enter a thread and expect us to talk about what the thread was originally about.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

Lanlan said:


> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> > I just find it to not be a fighter
> ...



I've explained this half a dozen times.


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## Lanlan (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Lanlan said:
> 
> 
> > Guild McCommunist said:
> ...


I gotta go to work soon. All I got out of you was the "combos" thing. But whatever. I call it a draw.


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## Rasas (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> If by "newer ones" you mean "in the past twenty years" then yes. I think we should change our definition of "newer" as well.
> 
> I'm not saying there's anything wrong or bad with SSB, I love the franchise and have played all the games for more hours than I can count. But I just find it to not be a fighter and a lot of the people who say it is are honestly annoying though. There's nothing wrong with the game not being a fighter.


Nah some PS2 games like All Star Wrestling really didn't have combos in a way but the popular ones usually do. It is just towards the 360/PS3/Wii era that changed. Well it is a opinion he has deal with it.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

Rasas said:


> Nah some PS2 games like All Star Wrestling really didn't have combos in a way but the popular ones usually do. It is just towards the 360/PS3/Wii era that changed. Well it is a opinion he has deal with it.



I'm sure people consider All Star Wrestling to be a real fighting game too.


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## KingVamp (Aug 26, 2012)

I still believe it's a fighter.  Even some of the people in this thread counter the stated reasons why it not, so calling all of them "annoying" isn't really fair.


EZ-Megaman said:


> Does it really matter how Guild classifies the game? I entered the topic expecting to read opinions about what Namco could do with the series.
> In any case, I would like to see some mechanics from the Tales series added into SSB4. Namely the ability to execute a mode that makes you stronger when a gauge fills up, and you can use final smashes when the power up is activated. I think that would be a lot less cheaper than Smash Balls.


Cheap? You have to fight for that thing.  Besides that idea would make final smashes appear too often.

I guess it can be a option like %,stock and coin mode.


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## triassic911 (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Lanlan said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I think you argue for the sake of arguing.
> ...


I'm not trying to make a point. I'm not even trying to argue. I am calling it like it is. Smash Bros is a fighting game. I'm not saying you are an "asshole". You are a good person but you have the bad habit of pushing your opinions onto others. Remember, an opinion is your personal thought, and only yours. If you find someone who agrees with you, awesome. If not, then you have to respect that too.


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## EZ-Megaman (Aug 26, 2012)

KingVamp said:


> Cheap? You have to fight for that thing.  Besides that idea would make final smashes appear too often.


Ah? I thought the smash ball appeared randomly. Sorry about my misunderstanding.
I don't think that the idea would make final smashes appear too often, but I'm fine with having the ball appear depending on how you fight.


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## KingVamp (Aug 26, 2012)

EZ-Megaman said:


> Ah? I thought the smash ball appeared randomly. Sorry about my misunderstanding.


I mean it does appear randomly, it just that it isn't like you automatically get it.
Plus if the other players hurry, you can knot the power out of them.


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## EZ-Megaman (Aug 26, 2012)

KingVamp said:


> I mean it does appear randomly, it just that it isn't like you automatically get it.
> Plus if the other players hurry, you can knot the power out of them.


Oh, I see what you mean now. Yeah, I did like how both players are given a chance to use an attack.


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## Anakir (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> A combo means one attack flows into another. Hitting them and then having the other person being incompetent enough to not defend isn't a combo. You just hit them twice. A combo is, say, you flow three attacks into each other with no gap in between for a counter attack. Off the top of my head, you do a standard L-M-H combo with Chun-Li and then do one of her hyper combos. The three hits have no gap in between and your opponent is still staggering so the hyper combo hits.



I agree with this. If they have a chance to defend but you are able to continue a combo through the opponent's defense, I'd call it a combo-string instead.


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## YayMii (Aug 26, 2012)

Melee is a lot more balanced than Brawl. Many of the stages are also tournament-legal, and there aren't really any overpowered characters. Items don't necessarily have to be disabled (except for the Smash Ball. SSB64 tourneys had items enabled) bit it is preferred as it makes gameplay more skill-based.

But isn't "fighting game" defined by the actual physical fighting aspect of the gameplay? And IMO "party game" shouldn't even be a genre as pretty much all party games fit into other genres (Mario Party fits into minigame compilation, Mario Kart fits into racing, etc).


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## Rasas (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I'm sure people consider All Star Wrestling to be a real fighting game too.
> 
> You do realize the point of fighting games is combos and that the strategy behind it is being able to chain specific combos together and know when to use them at the right time.


Well I guess some an consider it a sports game. Can we agree that fighting games don't need combos but greatly benefit from them entertainment and gameplay wise? That was basically what I was trying to get at since games like Karate Champ were like the only way to do a really deep fighting game at the time without maybe adding weapons.


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## Felipe_9595 (Aug 26, 2012)

^^^ Pretty much prooves that smash bros is a fighting game.

About the combo thing:



Or



Case Closed

Now back on topic.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 26, 2012)

Rasas said:


> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure people consider All Star Wrestling to be a real fighting game too.
> ...



Considering that combos have been a staple of competitive fighting games for the good part of 20 years I think we'll have to disagree on them. I enjoy fighters quite a bit actually and in recent years they've become quite accessible. Games can be fun and not be fighters too, there's nothing wrong with SSB for doing that. It's a frequent game at parties for me but it doesn't stop my friends and I from enjoying a few bouts in a real fighter.

Also, Felipe, exploits aren't combos. There's a reason they fixed it in Brawl.


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## Deleted_171835 (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Rasas said:
> 
> 
> > The early fighting games did not have combos but that is besides the point. Fighting games isn't about combos but the newer ones have them.
> ...





Yeah, the game is a fighter. Whether you think it works well competitively or not is arguable, I don't see how you can say it isn't a fighter.

*edit:* and someone already posted the vid


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## Rasas (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Considering that combos have been a staple of competitive fighting games for the good part of 20 years I think we'll have to disagree on them. I enjoy fighters quite a bit actually and in recent years they've become quite accessible. Games can be fun and not be fighters too, there's nothing wrong with SSB for doing that. It's a frequent game at parties for me but it doesn't stop my friends and I from enjoying a few bouts in a real fighter.
> 
> Also, Felipe, exploits aren't combos. There's a reason they fixed it in Brawl.


Before Street Fighter there were basically fighting games with no combos and if those games without combos weren't fighting games what are they genre wise.

The people that developed SSB said it was not a fighter so maybe it is a Beat em up I'm trying to argue about fighting games without combos.


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## Sterling (Aug 26, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> *Also, Felipe, exploits aren't combos. There's a reason they fixed it in Brawl.*



You should really evaluate what Melee really is. They took most things that _ever_ made SSB a fighter out in Brawl. So, you're right about brawl not being a fighter. Especially since character balance is non-existant in Brawl. Chain grabs are a major problem in vanilla Brawl as are other things. Exploits become part of the metagame in any competitive game where said exploits add balance and are uasable by _everyone_. Hell, most "exploits" in Melee I wouldn't *ever* tag as being cheap. Things like "L Cancelling" or "Shuffling" don't take _that_ much practice to get good enough to get some practical use of them. These can make low tier characters much more usable than they would be in the first place. Again, they took the exploits out because people like you want a *insert mocking tone here* "party game" *end of mocking tone*. Well, SSB can be both and do very well as melee has proven time and again. Brawl does one thing, and not even very well at that. There's no telling you otherwise though. Party games or not, SSB has an _*avid*_ competitive scene that would rip you testes through your mouth and shove them up your ass on fire.


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## Anakir (Aug 27, 2012)

Wavedashing in MvC was an exploit and is now used in uMvC3. There are no rules saying exploits can't be used in combos. L-cancel was intentional; even a page of Nintendo Power mentioned it as a tip during the SSB64 era. Wavedashing is just an exploit of physics. It's not a glitch in any way, so why can't people abuse it? Its like comparing wavedashing to an actual glitch, such as freezing the game.

Anyways. Brawl sucks.

And lol @ that "is smash a fighter" video. Kage appears near the end! I met him in person. He's a cool guy.


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## DSGamer64 (Aug 27, 2012)

I have never liked any Tekken game, or any other traditional fighting game for that matter. I like Smash Bros because it's a party game and not so much about button mashing combos that will destroy your opponents quickly. I honestly don't see how Namco working with Nintendo instantly makes Smash Bros better then it is.


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## BORTZ (Aug 27, 2012)

Im curious why this formula hasnt been copied more. But i move that this game is a "king of the hill" game. But with heavy fighting elements.


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## YayMii (Aug 27, 2012)

I don't know if you're aware of this, but comboing in SF2 was a design accident. It was completely unintentional, just like the ATs in Melee. The only difference is that Sakurai decided to remove the ATs.

I don't feel like continuing this argument any further, but I'll state again that IMO "party game" shouldn't even be a genre. Or at least be limited to minigame compilations.


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## Anakir (Aug 27, 2012)

BortzANATOR said:


> Im curious why this formula hasnt been copied more. But i move that this game is a "king of the hill" game. But with heavy fighting elements.



It is copied. A lot more than people think, just none of them are that successful or even heard of despite using popular cartoons/brands.


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