# Nintendo's biggest threat: R4



## Ace Gunman (Nov 26, 2007)

_The R4 looks like a simple piece of plastic. It is just a couple of centimetres square, a few millimetres thick and unbelievably easy to use. For Nintendo it is the Christmas stocking filler from hell.

Made in China, available for sale over the internet and now doing a roaring trade on the streets of Tokyo, the R4 has emerged as perhaps the ultimate video game piracy tool.

Costing a little more than £20, the device is a virtually unlimited passport to illegally downloaded software titles for the Nintendo DS – the handheld games console that has taken Japan, and much of the world, by storm.

In the Akihabara electronics district of Tokyo, where the R4 has just gone on sale, the product is ubiquitous but deliberately shrouded in mystery.

Many stores advertise that they have the R4 in stock and describe sales as “very strong” but refuse to say what it actually does, for fear of potentially dire legal consequences.

“New R4 shipment has finally arrived! You know what it does! Absolutely no questions will be answered concerning this product . . .” reads the sign outside one electronics store just off the main Akihabara drag. “Guaranteed for one week only! Of course we can’t explain what the R4 will do . . .” reads another in the store next door.

Other shops in the area are visibly nervous about it because it falls into what they refer to as a “grey zone” – the product itself is not illegal – but nearly everything that a customer would do with it probably is.

A floor manager at Iosys told The Times that the store was considering pulling out of sales following complaints; high street electronics shops refuse to stock it because it is legally questionable and damages sales of legitimate games software.

In the hands of the 35 million DS users around the world the R4 chip has the potential to deal a heavy financial blow to Nintendo and to the dozens of software developers that make games for the machine. Nintendo is Japan’s third most valuable listed company with a stock market value of more than $85 billion (£41 billion) and revenues of $7.8 billion in 2006.

The R4’s function is simple: it is a direct conduit for illegal game downloads and other unofficial software. Built to fit into the DS’s existing game cartridge slot, the R4 will transfer on to the console anything saved on a removable flash memory chip.

Most DS games appear on the internet and are ready for downloading within a few days of the legitimate version going on sale. Vidoes on youtube. com offer first-time users of the R4 an easy-to-follow tutorial in making the device work. Salesmen even quietly suggest visiting youtube.com rather than attempting to decipher its Chinese instructions.

As an experiment The Times obtained an R4 chip and downloaded free of charge on the internet ten new Nintendo DS games – worth about £400. The games, one of which had gone on sale only the day before, worked perfectly. The entire process took less than half an hour.

The R4 is not the first time that China has exported the means of games piracy to the outside world. Games software is heavily pirated and available throughout Asia. However, the R4, said one industry analyst, takes games piracy into a new level.

Beyond the purchase of the device, the user never has to go to stores to buy pirated software. “The R4 gives ordinary users the ability to sit at home and just browse the internet for any game that takes their fancy. A few clicks of the mouse and it is theirs free. Unlike previous piracy tools, the technology is not intimidating,” he said.

“We are keeping a close eye on the products and studying them. But we cannot smash all of them,” a Nintendo spokesman said. Some believe the R4 may have the same disruptive effect on Nintendo’s business model as early music file-sharing sites such as Napster had on the record industry. _

Source 1: http://kotaku.com/gaming/piracy/nintendos-...t-r4-326171.php

Source 2: http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle2933237.ece

Nintendo has its eyes on us AND the scene.


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## rhyguy (Nov 26, 2007)

i read that  a few days ago

i dont think 35 million people have a r4


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## Urza (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> ten new Nintendo DS games – worth about £400


At those prices, anyone would resort to pirating.


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## Lumstar (Nov 26, 2007)

Let's see... 34.99 USD for most new DS games. That's 349.90 before tax.


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## Urza (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(theclaw @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> Let's see... 34.99 USD for most new DS games. That's 349.90 before tax.


Which is about £170, and exactly my point.


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## cubin' (Nov 26, 2007)

Great, this is just more advertising for flashcards. 


35 million people have a DS. not an R4


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## Ace Gunman (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(cubin' @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> Great, this is just more advertising for flashcards.
> 
> 
> 35 million people have a DS. not an R4



I believe they meant that 35 million people have a DS, and as such potentially have access to an R4.


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## unr (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> R4 chip has the potential to deal a heavy financial blow to Nintendo
> Flashcarts have been around since GBA days and so far Nintendo is doing fine ("...revenues of $7.8 billion in 2006.").
> 
> QUOTEAs an experiment The Times obtained an R4 chip and downloaded free of charge on the internet ten new Nintendo DS games.


Hey, I use my R4 as an experiment all the time!


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## dodol (Nov 26, 2007)

why they keep "bashing" r4 ? there's alot slot 1 solution, or is r4 = cheapest solution ?


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## OG LOCC NESS (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Ace Gunman @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> QUOTE(cubin' @ Nov 26 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Great, this is just more advertising for flashcards.
> ...



This is exactly what they meant. 

Also, great job on advertising the R4. Thousands of people can now type "R4" into Google and the first result strikes the flash cart website. Thanks to the ease of use described in the article, who wouldn't want to "experiment" with this?

You guys better stock up on R4s pretty soon, it doesn't seem like this is going to end well at all.


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## Costello (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(dodol @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> why they keep "bashing" r4 ? there's alot slot 1 solution, or is r4 = cheapest solution ?


I believe the R4 is by far the most popular flashcart around, also one of the most easy to use. And yeah, it's very cheap so ... you get the idea.


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## azotyp (Nov 26, 2007)

I think that this coins have two edges, everybody knows that in market there are "good users" not having r4 and "bad users" having r4. But thanks to testing and revievs that "bad users" do with every game, "good users" can avoid tons of crappy games and buy that one that is worth of they money. So that "black market" is kind of good for users that dont use piracy.


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## enigmaindex (Nov 26, 2007)

If i was Nintendo i would not publicly advertise saying that we have our eyes on the R4 and the flash card scene, they are just asking for people to type in R4 into google as people above said and at the end of the day less money for Nintendo. It's understandable that Nintendo has their eyes on the scene, if i was them i would do everything possible to stop these flash carts as it is illegal and ever worse it's less money for Nintendo.


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## Rayder (Nov 26, 2007)

Out of the 8 people I know who have DS's, 5 of them have R4's.  And the ones who have the R4's NEVER "buy" games.

Those without an R4 want one.....so they never have to buy games again either.

Frankly, if you have a flashcart (any brand) and it plays downloaded ROMs perfectly, why would you actually "buy" games anymore?  I believe anyone that has a flashcart and says that they buy games that have proven to be good, after playing them on the flashcart, is lying.  They just "say" that to appear to take some sort of moral high-ground and validate their use of ROMs. 

And it's not hurting Nintendo as bad as that article makes out. Ninty is currently making money hand-over-fist.


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## Little (Nov 26, 2007)

Games in the UK retail at £30 (which would be $60)... meaning value of 10 games is £300... they were still a bit off on their figure but not as much as £230 as suggested.


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## xcalibur (Nov 26, 2007)

this is really not smart of nintendo if they really wanted the R4 shut down
i would shut it down without making such a big fuss aboiut it and go for the hardest approach
it wouldnt hurt us though, itd only be a matter of time untill someone else realises that there is something else like the R4 around and they would just start selling that
im amazed though, why would you sell an R4 instore?
im assuming that these are gamestores and if they did that wouldnt that just cause them a loss?


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## Little (Nov 26, 2007)

Its only stores in places like Toyoko that have started to sell them. Its more likely to be small electronic stores/stalls rather than actual large chain stores.


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## leetdude_007 (Nov 26, 2007)

They're watching.


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## azotyp (Nov 26, 2007)

Many people buyed nintendo DS because there is so many flashcarts on it, 
I myself would never spent money for ds games (if there were no flashcarts on ds, i would buy original psp games and psp of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , but since i like to have many games on one card (homebrew of course 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )  and dont care about high end graphic that much, ds is good enough for me).
I think that many people over the world buyed ds , because big-N do not make War Against Piracy (like sony), but if they ever will make like games that does not work on flashcarts it will be end of they big selling of DS all over the world.


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## Mars (Nov 26, 2007)

That article is advertising the R4 in a way. Now people who never heard of it will probably look it up.


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## Urza (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Little @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> Games in the UK retail at £30 (which would be $60)... meaning value of 10 games is £300...


At those prices, anyone would resort to pirating.


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## Seraph (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(cubin' @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> Great, this is just more advertising for flashcards.
> 
> 
> 35 million people have a DS. not an R4


These articles are pretty stupid, it is just advertisement. I don't think Nintendo is able to stop all flashcarts. Even if they're able to shut down R4, when people go search for R4 online they'll come to a store that has similar products to R4.


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## Harsky (Nov 26, 2007)

Everyone I know who has a DS also has an R4. Even a family friend of mine went up to me and asked me to order one for him because he saw someone with it. 

That said, shame that the PSP doesn't have much spotlight about it's piracy and the whole custom firmware thing. Kinda sad that even the piracy aspect of the PSP isn't enough to make it sell.


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## azotyp (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Kinda sad that even the piracy aspect of the PSP isn't enough to make it sell.


I think that if there were some kind of flashcarts fort psp (like r4) that to use , you would not have to change firmware, maybe psp would sell better.


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## Sonicslasher (Nov 26, 2007)

n00b alert, ppl will come here!! g00gle R4, gbatemp is third on teh list!!!


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## Ace Gunman (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(sonicslasher @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> n00b alert, ppl will come here!! g00gle R4, gbatemp is third on teh list!!!



Well I'll be damned, you're right. Looks like GBAtemp just got some great indirect publicity from The Times.


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## Icarus (Nov 26, 2007)

Why do they keep calling it a "chip". It's a "flashcart" !!! Get your facts right Kotaku !!!


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## Joey Ravn (Nov 26, 2007)

If the R4 (or whichever flashcart you prefer) is Nintendo's biggest threat... where do you leave emulation? Just look at the GBA, s'il vous plait. The DS is not far from where the GBA is, in terms of emulation.
Besides... free emulation > €50 for an R4.


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## SilverDragon (Nov 26, 2007)

How many people seriously want to play portable games on an emulator? I know I don't, other than for quickly checking out.


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## Doggy124 (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Ace Gunman @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> QUOTE(sonicslasher @ Nov 26 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > n00b alert, ppl will come here!! g00gle R4, gbatemp is third on teh list!!!
> ...



Shops in my country usually have less than10 legit DS games in their shop but 50+ flash cards in stock 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



And that is a real shop, not internet shop. All over the market


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## Joey Ravn (Nov 26, 2007)

Well, maybe not for the DS, as, right now, the touch screen emulation is rather... hard to control. But for GBA, come on... I know MANY people that have played MANY (+100) GBA and beat them completely, using VBA.
Just give it time, and the R4 won't look as a threat no more...

PS: I'm not against the R4 or emulation, BTW. But I just wanted to point out that, although it may seem so, flashcarts won't 'deal a devastating blow to Nintendo's finances'. At least, not more than a free emulator could.


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## cracker (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(unr69 @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually they have been around a lot longer than that but they just weren't mainstream and production was a lot lower.


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## sirAnger (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Ace Gunman @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> _Most DS games appear on the internet and are ready for downloading within a few days of the legitimate version going on sale. Vidoes on youtube. com offer first-time users of the R4 an easy-to-follow tutorial in making the device work. Salesmen even quietly suggest visiting youtube.com rather than attempting to decipher its Chinese instructions.
> 
> As an experiment The Times obtained an R4 chip and downloaded free of charge on the internet ten new Nintendo DS games – worth about £400. The games, one of which had gone on sale only the day before, worked perfectly. The entire process took less than half an hour._




This sounds more like an advertisement for R4 than a deterrent.


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## jelbo (Nov 26, 2007)

This kind of news only draws more attention to the DS pirating options..


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## Seicomart (Nov 26, 2007)

Flashcarts have been on sale in Akiba for years now, for NDS, GBA, going back to the old Magicoms et.al and even floppy drives for PC Engine back in the day. Of course there were also plenty of stores selling pirate Famicom Disc System games quite openly too.

I picked up a Guide to Flash carts and Roms in a convenience store along with a guide to Mame out of sheer curiosity in the hot spring resort of Noboribetsu, Hokkaido which is just about as in the middle of nowhere you can expect to be in Japan. Both cost 200 yen I think (about a quid). I'll take some pictures tonight and upload them later.

When I worked in Japan I showed my old GBA flash cart to some of my students who were aged around 1-16 some of them said it was cool, but when asked pretty much all of them said they would prefer to have the original game cos of the box, packaging, instructions etc.

The "reporter" who seems clueless doesn't seem to take on any of the cultural factors, only financial. To be sure at the moment Japan's economy is down the shitter, but when it comes to gaming, originals were still valued over playing for free, at least when talking on other occasions to the 300 or so students of mine a few quality games were seen as a better thing than all the games for free, but that was just in one part of Hokkaido, naturally people from other locations may vary.

You don't see that many young children in Akiba either, most of the crowd there seem like they can afford to buy their games, though you wouldn't think so from how a great many dress ^^


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## Ducky (Nov 26, 2007)

I imagine nintendo dressed as the police.. "POLICE OPEN UP! " *goes to child* "Do you own a Nintendo DS?! " Child : "Yeah" Police : "Can we see it just for a momment?" Child : "ah... ah... (Mom tells him to give them) okay..." Police *Gets the R4 Out puts it on the ground and starts shooting on it * , *Child Cries* 


BEWARE OF THE FUTURE!!


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## shakirmoledina (Nov 26, 2007)

lol maybe it is an advert since tht way more carts are sold and so are more of the consoles sold too. Or weirdly, maybe R4 is giving some kind of commission to nintendo for the sales.


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## Mars (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Joey Ravn @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> Well, maybe not for the DS, as, right now, the touch screen emulation is rather... hard to control. But for GBA, come on... I know MANY people that have played MANY (+100) GBA and beat them completely, using VBA.
> Just give it time, and the R4 won't look as a threat no more...
> 
> PS: I'm not against the R4 or emulation, BTW. But I just wanted to point out that, although it may seem so, flashcarts won't 'deal a devastating blow to Nintendo's finances'. At least, not more than a free emulator could.



I see what you're saying but with emulation, you're not getting nearly the same gaming experience as an actual DS, unless you have a tablet PC. Although DS emulators may affect sales, I don't think it'll deal a big blow.


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## jumpman17 (Nov 26, 2007)

Big Nintendo Official: "Blah blah blah, Nintendo moniez, blah blah blah, piracy, blah blah blah, made up number here."

When are these companies going to do some real math? They always assume that every game downloaded would have been bought at full price.

Now, I'm a college student with like, $20,000 of debt. I wish I could buy all the games I want, but I just can't. I've bought about 45 Gamecube games, 12 Wii games, and about 25 DS games. I really don't know what more they want from me. I buy what I can, and I wish I could buy more, but I can't.


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## Ace Gunman (Nov 26, 2007)

You know, it's interesting. This whole Nintendo watching the scene business actually fits quite well into a handful of rumors. I'm going to go into a hypothetical now, it has no basis, no need to get heated; it's simply a theory.

We've all heard the rumors that Nintendo has been developing a new GBA slot-less Nintendo DS model. And there were also rumors a few months ago about Nintendo developing their own flash carts. Well what if they've been watching the scene so closely in order to learn more about this part of the market and then create a flash cart-type product aimed at us? Also fitting into the hypothetical situation is the rumored DS redesign. What if the redesign was for the people that could use this new DS slot flash cart to download ROMs via a virtual console service? Interestingly the rumors suggest on-board memory, what if that was to contain downloadable games?

It's pure conjecture at this point, but the puzzle pieces logically fit together.


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## Sonicslasher (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(FoxMcCloud @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> I imagine nintendo dressed as the police.. "POLICE OPEN UP! " *goes to child* "Do you own a Nintendo DS?! " Child : "Yeah" Police : "Can we see it just for a momment?" Child : "ah... ah... (Mom tells him to give them) okay..." Police *Gets the R4 Out puts it on the ground and starts shooting on it * , *Child Cries*
> 
> 
> BEWARE OF THE FUTURE!!


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## JusDaMan (Nov 26, 2007)

dumb ass ignorant R4 users!

thats all i have to say.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




now if you get mad at that statement you are ignorant.
there are non ignorant r4 users also. just that ignorant out weight non ignorant 10:1.


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## camx (Nov 26, 2007)

Blaming piracy is often used as a last resort of a company unwilling to admit it's own mistakes with it's product.  When you can't admit your faults and unwillingness to change, find something else to wag the finger at, it sure beats spending money on fresh ideas.  Why not give people a reason to actually buy a game?  I admit i don't know what it would be.  But certainly something could attract people to spend actual money to have something people with flashcards can't have.  Then again I've owned a flash cart since..  99?  I spend all my real cash on retro games


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## Joey Ravn (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(marz93 @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> I see what you're saying but with emulation, you're not getting nearly the same gaming experience as an actual DS, unless you have a tablet PC. Although DS emulators may affect sales, I don't think it'll deal a big blow.



That's the point: it doesn't give _such_ blow. Flashcarts sure hurt the industry up to some extent, but so does emulation. And, if you allow me, I dare say that the used-game market may be included in that 'harmful uses'. Think about it for a second: you sell a game for, lets say, €10. The store re-sells it for €25. How much of that difference of €15 goes to Nintendo? Zero. Nothing. And the result is the same: someone gets a game and, although they are paying, Nintendo gets no profit of that transaction.
There's always been piracy, but saying that the R4 will destroy the industry is sheer, utter nonesense.

Remember, kids, don't copy that floppy!


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## amptor (Nov 26, 2007)

nintendo are gluttons. look at their profits, I could give a damn if people use an R4 or not.  They still get paid.


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## Deleted User (Nov 26, 2007)

In my opinion the R4 isn't a big threat to Nintendo. Sure, flashcarts have become more popular nowadays but gaming in general has become more popular too. Just take a look at all those so-called 'casual gamers', the new market Nintendo developed with "Touch Generations!".
I hardly believe any of them are buying flashcarts just so they won't have to pay for Brain Training 1 & 2 -- and a lot of them sure think it's really inconvenient to buy the flashkit, microSD cards, maybe a card reader and then download a game and put it on the card with practically no technological knowledge.
My girlfriend for example could never be arsed to use the R4 I gave her if it wasn't for me putting the games on it and updating the fw etc.

The only real threat are bad games and at the moment the DS rules the handheld market for a reason.

I for myself will continue to buy games I like--though I don't buy all of them at full price. Just as an example: I own about 28 GBA games and the second thing I bought for my GBA was a Visoly FA, so Jumpman17, I really know how you feel.


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## jalaneme (Nov 26, 2007)

nintendo make tons of money from all the DS lites sold, and that included all the people who use a R4 too, so we are giving nintendo are money in some way.


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## Costello (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Joey Ravn @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> *Well, maybe not for the DS, as, right now, the touch screen emulation is rather... hard to control. But for GBA, come on... I know MANY people that have played MANY (+100) GBA and beat them completely, using VBA.*
> Just give it time, and the R4 won't look as a threat no more...



Good point.. the difference between the GBA and the DS is that on the GBA you used to be able to emulate the GBA 1:1 and play games perfectly, so all you needed was your computer.
Now with the DS, people do kind of the same thing, except that they have to buy a DS console to actually play the games... see what I mean?
Still doesn't justify piracy, but at least Nintendo makes more profit off console sales.


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## Sonicslasher (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Costello @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Joey Ravn @ Nov 26 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > *Well, maybe not for the DS, as, right now, the touch screen emulation is rather... hard to control. But for GBA, come on... I know MANY people that have played MANY (+100) GBA and beat them completely, using VBA.*
> ...



(off topic)
how did you get a music thingy?


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## mikagami (Nov 26, 2007)

Their own fault for allowing it to be hacked so easily.  If you had to solder a chip in the DS people would have second thoughts before modding one.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 26, 2007)

"I dare say that the used-game market may be included in that 'harmful uses'. Think about it for a second: you sell a game for, lets say, €10. The store re-sells it for €25. How much of that difference of €15 goes to Nintendo? Zero. Nothing"

I do not know about around you but given most trades seem to be done against trades around here.....
Not to mention if the companies expect me to pay for what amounts to a glorified rental (i.e. no second sale) then they lose all reason to complain in my world.

Back on topic it seems r4 is the catch all term: biro, hoover, mp3 (and by extension ipod), IBM PC (an old one perhaps), playstation (and even sega playstation)......

Anyhow should we all not be worried about lack of available firearms making the threat UFO squads led by illegal immigrants and xombie (yes with a x) Jesus terrorist terrorist pedophile/peadophile pedophile George Bush [insert generic fear inducing phrase].


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## madmk (Nov 26, 2007)

Games should cost £4.99, or £9.99 for big releases, where you get books and things in it :-) Like Zelda. I'd pay for that shit. But, £29.99 is a bit of a joke considering I don't play them for that long before getting tired of the gimmick-stick.

MK Has been the best release for a while, simple arcade play. No stick shit.


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## laminaatplaat (Nov 26, 2007)

I never got a game for my DSlite....

got the DSlite black for €99 (new), €10 for hori screenprotectors €50/60 for a r4ds with 2gb and €20 for the 3in1 Ezflash V...

I know i'm a horrible consumer, but i got them (nintendo) through the bad times, i got a lot of original games for the Gamecube and for the gameboy advance, it's a world of give and take 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




okay that was the worse argument ever


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## Joey Ravn (Nov 26, 2007)

QUOTE(Costello @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> Good point.. the difference between the GBA and the DS is that on the GBA you used to be able to emulate the GBA 1:1 and play games perfectly, so all you needed was your computer.
> Now with the DS, people do kind of the same thing, except that they have to buy a DS console to actually play the games... see what I mean?
> Still doesn't justify piracy, but at least Nintendo makes more profit off console sales.



Well... The DS is currently being emulated at, let's say, %35. In a year time, probably and if it keeps the current pace, it will be around, let's say again, %65-%75, if not higher. It's a matter of time before it reaches said 1:1 emulation. The same happened with the GBA: there was a time were most games run at %50 speed. I remember playing Wario Land 4 on VBA about 6 years ago, with frameskipping and stuttering. But still, anyone now can now download a GBA ROM, VBA/No$GBA and play the game at full speed with no troubles at all... and sometimes even better than they would in the actual console.

'Nintendo is clever because they make huge profits with the DS hardware sales' is a half-true. First of all, as I already said, it's a matter of time before we achieve perfect emulation, thus rendering that 'argument' completely untrue. Moreover,  you can always buy a second-hand console, from which Nintendo gets no profit. And, on top of that, if you need raw monetary value, €150 for a DS < all the money the company 'loses' with ROM downloads. It's as simple as that, although, to be truthful, Nintendo's market won't die because of piracy.

So, to sum up, mark my words: give emulation a year time. We'll see if what happened with the GBA doesn't occur again. It has happened to almost every single console ever: from the Amiga to the Atomiswave, including the Dreamcast, the NES, the SNES and, obviously, the GBA. I still don't see how a flashcart can be such a devastating threat to a company, but we don't take into consideration other 'threats', like emulation and the second-hand market. Because, and let's face it, GBA flashcarts have been around for AGES, but emulation has always been more popular. Maybe nowadays we see everyone talking about their R4s and CycloDS', but that's only because those are the best options. As soon as something free 'hits the market', most of those who don't have a flashcart will instantly try to get it.

Bah, my two cents on the matter. If you saw the video I posted earlier you'll realise that piracy has been a 'threat' for the industry old as the industry itself... but still, they keep coming with garbage like Horsez and Masterpieces like DQM:J


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## Slipurson (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(jalaneme @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> nintendo make tons of money from all the DS lites sold, and that included all the people who use a R4 too, so we are giving nintendo are money in some way.



Yeah but imho this aint just a "threat" to nintendo.. it is to all the third party developers out there.. who loose potential income on games they could have sold.

I used to "pirate" with no regrets when i was always buying the games i found good.. but lately, be it not so good games or just my lazyness/beeing cheap, it is just so much easier to just download and play through a game and forget about it, and the more ppl that do that.. the more money the companies will loose.. for nintendos/third party devs, there should be more games like upcoming Maple Story where you play online with a created acount like any other MMO for the PC etc,

As for pirateing, sure we can always say like the PC-Game/Music/movie Pirates always said.. i do it cuz the original is so expensive, tho as long as we keep pirateing the prices wont go down at all, nomatter how much we want it, publishers will just say "we loose so much on pirateing we need to raise the prices".
Instead i think portals like Steam and such will to some extent lower pirateing since the games will be quite easy to get and the price will be lower since they dont have to print DVDs and package etc etc..

My hope for the Wii/DS is that they will enable us to in some way download whole games and play them, not sure how it would work tho seeing as there aint no huge amount of internal memory in the DS for example, still for the Wii they could always produce a harddrive even tho they said they wont.


Damn i strayed quite abit of topic there, and no this aint no propaganda to get ppl to start buying games.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Edit: oh and what Joey Ravn said 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




and speaking of "used-market" how did Sonys "you are not alowed to sell your copy of the game, you only own the disc not the actual code" end up? =)


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## cracker (Nov 27, 2007)

I can't foresee emulation ever putting even a tiny dent in the sales of the DS. Not just that being strapped to your computer while you play through a game is a putoff but you also don't have the ability to do one of the coolest things with many of the games -- play against someone on wifi (local or wfc). I don't think that will ever get emulated properly, if at all.


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## OSW (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> We are keeping a close eye on the products and studying them. But we cannot smash all of them.


ROFL.

how  hard is it for Nintendo to find the R4 factories and shut them down? or if they can't touch them in china, intercept shipments or block shops from selling them (if they can do that, who knows if it's illegal)

and that 34 mill thing was worded very poorly, even i misunderstood.

the main time i buy something is if it's got bonus physical content, like a limited edition coloured cart (they've never done this with NDS) or a poster, collectors item etc.


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## theman69 (Nov 27, 2007)

"So, to sum up, mark my words: give emulation a year time. We'll see if what happened with the GBA doesn't occur again. It has happened to almost every single console ever: from the Amiga to the Atomiswave, including the Dreamcast, the NES, the SNES and, obviously, the GBA. I still don't see how a flashcart can be such a devastating threat to a company, but we don't take into consideration other 'threats', like emulation and the second-hand market. Because, and let's face it, GBA flashcarts have been around for AGES, but emulation has always been more popular. Maybe nowadays we see everyone talking about their R4s and CycloDS', but that's only because those are the best options. As soon as something free 'hits the market', most of those who don't have a flashcart will instantly try to get it."
Playing games for DS on computer ruin the purpose, honestly who is about to pick up emulator for full touch games it's just not as fun.
When I found VBA i didnt think there was anything else...Now years later i fully understand the scene, i doubt little kids aren't going to buy carts since everykid nowadays spends a lot more time on their respective PC's "Surfing the Web"


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## BakuFunn (Nov 27, 2007)

Wow nintendo is an idiot company. Why would they even advertise in a way, the FLASHCART? I personally am a cheap ass when it come to ninendo games. with 30 bucks a piece, i wouldnt buy it unless it was really good, or i really want it, like zelda, which i bought. One of my friends, i told him to get a r4 but he said it was too much of a hassle. The last game he bought so far was cod 4 for ds. I but lots of games for other consoles, like Mac, and PS2 (side note-Dirge of Ceberus is not that good) but only ones onder 30 dollars. I would ONLY buy a 30 dollar or more game if I really want it. I paid 12 bucks for elite force voyager (my fav star trek series) and it was quite worth it. Elite force 2 was quickly bought after. Janeways not in that one :'( Anyways, nintendo i think MIGHT be releasing that new DS with free demos downloadable online, and full games downloadable also. Maybe a MEM PAK for a other wierd slot can be plugged in acting as a memory cart, for more games. The downloadable games cannot be kept on your compy, and it would work pretty well. DLable Nes games and offical homebrew support might just make pirating end, and the DS more popular. Think of the advertisements- Get FREE demos ONLINE! Buy game in the comfort of your home! Tons of free homebrew games! People could buy more MEM PAK carts and put games on there. I would totally get that new DS. I would then buy a few MEM PAKS and put all my homebrew, and startt gettin games at the prices they sell to retailers. 10 bucks a game, pirating will not increase so much. Since the reason to pirate IS the price. 30 bucks a game? pfft, 5 games is as much as a console. The prices never drop also. Really, nintendo, use my new plan ! I know you are LISTENING.


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## Jaejae (Nov 27, 2007)

When you think about it, Nintendo is making money from flash carts, I wouldn't have bought my DS Lite if it wasn't for flash carts.
Not that I pirate games or anything, I use my R4 just for Homebrew, betas, and music 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## iritegood (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(Ace Gunman @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> _As an experiment The Times obtained an R4 chip and downloaded free of charge on the internet ten new Nintendo DS games – worth about £400. The games, one of which had gone on sale only the day before, worked perfectly. The entire process took less than half an hour.
> _


_

We're just conducting an experiment! We swear! Just ignore Bill in the corner playing Contra!

I'm just wondering how they found the ten latest games. They must've been paying attention to the scene.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



_


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## cracker (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(BakuFunn @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> Anyways, nintendo i think MIGHT be releasing that new DS with free demos downloadable online, and full games downloadable also. Maybe a MEM PAK for a other wierd slot can be plugged in acting as a memory cart, for more games. The downloadable games cannot be kept on your compy, and it would work pretty well. DLable Nes games and offical homebrew support might just make pirating end, and the DS more popular. Think of the advertisements- Get FREE demos ONLINE! Buy game in the comfort of your home! Tons of free homebrew games! People could buy more MEM PAK carts and put games on there. I would totally get that new DS. I would then buy a few MEM PAKS and put all my homebrew, and startt gettin games at the prices they sell to retailers. 10 bucks a game, pirating will not increase so much. Since the reason to pirate IS the price. 30 bucks a game? pfft, 5 games is as much as a console. The prices never drop also. Really, nintendo, use my new plan ! I know you are LISTENING.
> 
> 
> The PSP has had downloadable demos of games for a very long time and that didn't persuade people not to pirate games.
> ...



A lot of people seem to think that the game system manufacturers make out like bandits on the sale of the hardware. In reality they take a big loss on hardware for a long time after it has been out because of the cost of the R&D and the initial prices of the manufacturing costs and components are a lot higher at the launch of a system. Over time the costs come down but the money they make off of them then wouldn't be enough to keep the company going I'm sure. The real money is in the software -- especially 3rd party titles where the system manufacturer doesn't have to do a damn thing because the developers and publishers do all the work and then just pay the money for licensing.


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## OSW (Nov 27, 2007)

lol yeah! and you know, even if it was for "experimentation", that is still illegal! nintendo could get times for that haha.

and honesty, about 35% of my time on DS is spent with homebrew. They fail to mention that these devices can legitimately run homebrew too.

Homebrew ROX!


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## NonStopInTheMix (Nov 27, 2007)

hmm i think that the constant stupid releases by nintendo has contributed to the rise of flashcarts. nowaddays most games are so freakin expensive and worthless in gameplay value that people ultimately have lost faith in nintendo's ability to come out with quality games. I have a m3ds simply (yeah yeah R4 clone, copy, brother etc) but ive also bought mario kart ds and zelda becanuse i felt that i owed it to nintendo to buy just those 2 games.

overall nintendo better make downloadable demos that can be EASILY ACCESSED by everyone so that people will know for sure exactly what they are paying for... youtube video reviews dont always work nintendo, you have to play the game to feel like buying it.

as a sidenote: not to be a R4 hater or anythign but ive been in the flashcart scene for quite a while.. since GBA. and my question to everybody out there is:

"what happened to supercard?" 

yeah they were like the pioneers of flashcarting before the R4 came along and stuff so why has nobody mentioned them? and why hasnt nintendo gone fater them all these years? its kinda funny since im a M3 and a SCDS user that the R4 always gets so much more hype and legal trouble than the predecessor it was based off of.

but in conclusion, Nintendo, you can only stop /slow down R4 by blowing up their factory or releasing better quality games 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 NO MORE HORSEZ, DOGZ, DIDDYKONG RACING, FLAWED LEGO STARWARS GAME, etc.


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## War (Nov 27, 2007)

I've even started to notice in my school that people are talking about R4s. The word is spreading fast.


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## Jaejae (Nov 27, 2007)

I have a whole lotta mates who had DSs' before me, and now that I got my R4, their interest in DS games has suddenly piped up again. What a coincidence.


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## mini-frizz (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(Joey Ravn @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Costello @ Nov 26 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Good point.. the difference between the GBA and the DS is that on the GBA you used to be able to emulate the GBA 1:1 and play games perfectly, so all you needed was your computer.
> ...



I'm pretty sure there are ds emulators that allow most games to be run at 100 percent spped nowadys. I think what costello was trying to say in stating that ds games cannot be run 1:1 when emulated, is that a mouse is not a good alternative for a touch screen, so the ROMs are too difficult to control on a PC. He wasn't saying ds games don't run at full speed with emulators.


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## iffy525 (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(Ace Gunman @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> Nintendo has its eyes on us AND the scene.


there could be a spy among us...


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## xalphax (Nov 27, 2007)

i explained my flashcard to friends, but they think its "too much hassle" so they still buy ALL retail games.
i only know one other person in my environment who owns a flashcard too, all other people still buy all their games.
i just buy the diamonds. bought phoenix wright, trauma center, zelda: phantom hourglass etc.

bottomline: oh noees... nintendo is going down... fast.... they will be bankrupt by the end of the week!!


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## Nero (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(iffy525 @ Nov 26 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Ace Gunman @ Nov 26 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Nintendo has its eyes on us AND the scene.
> ...



Shh.... You'll ruin my cover!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Just kidding.

Seriously... The ONLY person I know that owns a Flashcart is my brother, not including GBAtemp.
Is it really that well known? Everyone needs to stop spreading the word about Flashcarts!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Maybe remove GBAtemp from Google so people won't be able to look it up? Dunno.. Just an idea.

Side-note: I  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Homebrew.

~Nero


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## myuusmeow (Nov 27, 2007)

Then we lose the ability to search when the search is down, lose almost all hits, there's no good to removing GBATemp from Google.


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## enigmaindex (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(sonicslasher @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> n00b alert, ppl will come here!! g00gle R4, gbatemp is third on teh list!!!



Oh no, im just waiting for those MySQL errors i got when Super Mario Galaxy (Japan) got released.

Anyway, it's not like the R4 is going to make Nintendo bankrupt with in the next week, they are just scared like any big corporation would, they see a threat and think "Oh no's we are going to lose money" and so and so forth.

I still buy the real Wii games, i don't have it chipped yet and i don't plan to get it chipped for a while either, and i only buy 1 or so games very 2-3 months for the Wii so it doesn't bother me.

But on a lighter note, i think this '.gif' below belongs in this topic. =]


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## Rayder (Nov 27, 2007)

Meanwhile, DQ4 sold 360,000 copies in its first week.  Yeah, Ninty is hurting real bad because of flashcarts.


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## Talaria (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(cracker @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Jaejae @ Nov 27 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > When you think about it, Nintendo is making money from flash carts, I wouldn't have bought my DS Lite if it wasn't for flash carts.
> ...



I am pretty sure i read somewhere that the DS lite was cheaper to manufacture than the original DS phat. So yeah i think Nintendo is just making big bucks from the system.


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## Rayder (Nov 27, 2007)

Nintendo ALWAYS makes money on their hardware.  It's "other" companies that sell them for a loss.

I'm surprised more Nintendo fans don't already know this.


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## juggernaut911 (Nov 27, 2007)

dude... that sucks... we should petition R4!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 so they stop doing that... whatever it is...



OR: we make a spontanious combustion firmware, to destroy teh R4 forever!!!1111! o ya!


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## GBA_Temper (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(juggernaut911 @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> dude... that sucks... we should petition R4!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bro come down  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  ..What ever you decide to do I am with you 100% all the way


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## Sonicslasher (Nov 27, 2007)

.....everyone know that bush isnt leaving iraq till he gets his r4....that was kinda random...


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## nephdj (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(Joey Ravn @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> Well... The DS is currently being emulated at, let's say, %35. In a year time, probably and if it keeps the current pace, it will be around, let's say again, %65-%75, if not higher. It's a matter of time before it reaches said 1:1 emulation. The same happened with the GBA: there was a time were most games run at %50 speed. I remember playing Wario Land 4 on VBA about 6 years ago, with frameskipping and stuttering. But still, anyone now can now download a GBA ROM, VBA/No$GBA and play the game at full speed with no troubles at all... and sometimes even better than they would in the actual console.


VBA worked fine about 1year after launch, wasnt a issue at all

zophar has a nice list of all the emu's back then


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## cracker (Nov 27, 2007)

QUOTE(Rayder @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> Nintendo ALWAYS makes money on their hardware.Â It's "other" companies that sell them for a loss.
> 
> I'm surprised more Nintendo fans don't already know this.








 I'm going to need a bigger flash cart.


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## rest0re (Nov 27, 2007)

Original games rules. I think best thing about getting a new game is opening plastic wrapper and putting game into ds. Original, working game that I can use to play over internets. I only used r4 to do silly things like i played some gb games with lameboy that I own and used Animanatee. Then I put Animal Paradise to ds for my sister to play. She didn't like it so I deleted it...


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## Psyfira (Nov 27, 2007)

I wrote a long post last night about "prove the game is worth the money" demos, game prices, game stores charging high prices because the competition from online stores doesn't affect them much (people like to look at the back of the box to find what it's about, I have no idea why online stores don't include it), and 3rd party developers being hit harder than Nintendo but I felt like I was just repeating myself and countless others.

Nintendo need to wake up and listen; people are happy to pay for games that are affordable, titles they know they will like and are worth the money. If they stopped publishing crap then people won't be worried about getting stung (I know they're targetting parents and kids but if your kid only plays a game for a few hours before getting bored and throwing it in a corner that's going to put the parent off of buying more), and if people can try a game first they'll feel more informed before laying down cash for it. 

Look at Puzzle Quest; normally a game like that would've gone straight into a bargain bin. The PC demo pulled it into the spotlight, it sold by the bucketload and recruited a load of non-DS owners while it was at it. I have 3 friends who brought DS's just for that game. It proved itself and the move paid off.

£25 is a lot of money to some of us. I'd like to know exactly what I'm getting for it beforehand.


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## adgloride (Nov 27, 2007)

Having to wait months for certain big releases is another reason people will buy an R4 (Or any other device capable of playing roms).  Believe it or not some people are still too n00b to know were to download the roms and how to get the firmware and put them on the R4.


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## rest0re (Nov 28, 2007)

yea bring major games earlier to europe!


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## Lumstar (Nov 28, 2007)

Yes, but an R4 does you no good if the game is undumped.


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## warbird (Nov 28, 2007)

QUOTE(rest0re @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> Original games rules. I think best thing about getting a new game is opening plastic wrapper and putting game into ds. Original, working game that I can use to play over internets. I only used r4 to do silly things like i played some gb games with lameboy that I own and used Animanatee. Then I put Animal Paradise to ds for my sister to play. She didn't like it so I deleted it...



The first thing I do when I buy a new game, is to dump it, so I can play it on my M3simply. Its just a pain in the ass to drag 10 carts around, when you can have 1 inserted all the time.


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## shinji257 (Nov 28, 2007)

Wow.  I have an R4 but I actually legally most of the games that I play.  I did download almost all of them first but I did go out and buy them.  Mostly to support the developers.  One game I went and bought first then did a dump of it actually lags on my 2GB microsd card though so I have been playing it on the original cart instead.  The game is FF12: Revanent Wings.  Good game.

P.S. - I create most of my own backups on an unmodified DS.


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## Nero (Nov 28, 2007)

Everyone... It seems like Nintendo's only going after the R4 as it's main enemy.

If they kill all the R4's, we can move on to another Flashcart.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




(Not to mention if you own one already)

~Nero


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## shinji257 (Nov 28, 2007)

QUOTE(rest0re @ Nov 27 2007 said:


> Original games rules. I think best thing about getting a new game is opening plastic wrapper and putting game into ds. Original, working game that I can use to play over internets. I only used r4 to do silly things like i played some gb games with lameboy that I own and used Animanatee. Then I put Animal Paradise to ds for my sister to play. She didn't like it so I deleted it...



Ummm... almost all of the dumped games that can play over wfc can do so with a flashcart as well.  None of the other ds units can tell the difference.  The issue comes with download play where it is a local game.  Sometimes the game will crash when you try to do the single cart method.


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## jesterscourt (Nov 28, 2007)

ScummVM, Colors, etc. etc.  There are uses for the flashcarts other than for what they are talking about.  Speaking of Scumm, did anyone see the new Iphone version?  Looks pretty rad


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## fenthwick (Nov 28, 2007)

I wouldn't have bought a ds if it wasn't for the R4 and I think others are like me so in a way they do get money for the DS.

Same goes for the PC games. I would never buy any of the ones I download. I buy the ones I want.


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## Deleted User (Nov 29, 2007)

you seriously think 8 yr olds are gonna go "Mommy will you buy me an R4 so I can play DS games for free?"

seriously though, the R4 is going to cause the falling of the DS Homebrew scene, it has publicized software piracy way to much...


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## Ace Gunman (Nov 30, 2007)

Well well, seems like Nintendo is taking the threat of flashcarts seriously.


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