# If Benjamin Franklin could see what 2020 had become, he'd say "I was right."



## Deleted User (Sep 27, 2020)

That is,  his famous quote:





​This applies to those, mainly in U.K. and Spain right now where its citizens are forced to live in lockdown. Lockdowns cause more harm than good, examples? Cabin fever, depression, suicidal thoughts, and unemployment (which makes them unable to pay their bills).

All in all, once people accept this as their new "normal", that's it for them.


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## notimp (Sep 27, 2020)

Again, there is an epidemic raging, even if at a 0.375% deathrate, but at near exponential spread dynamics. You might, temporarily, have to give up a little liberty.

If it makes you feel better, we can talk about if a full shutdown in a city was needed or not and what the tradeoffs are, or about how society will reclaim freedoms once the thing is over (clubbing culture is on the verge of dying, at the moment).

But also, what are the tradeoffs that caused us to loose both currently? The riots/protests? Thats kind of a the straw that broke the camels back issue thats mixed in there, wasnt it?


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## Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee (Sep 27, 2020)

OP stop being a dumb kid, he was talking about people acting more like the Saudi government to reduce some real crimes.

Yes, there was no Saudi then. I mean people who are like Saudi.


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## KingVamp (Sep 27, 2020)

Isn't this basically the same thread he made about lockdowns?


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## UltraSUPRA (Sep 27, 2020)

notimp said:


> Again, there is an epidemic raging, even if at a 0.375% deathrate, but at near exponential spread dynamics. You might, temporarily, have to give up a little liberty.
> 
> If it makes you feel better, we can talk about if a full shutdown in a city was needed or not and what the tradeoffs are, or about how society will reclaim freedoms once the thing is over (clubbing culture is on the verge of dying, at the moment).
> 
> But also, what are the tradeoffs that caused us to loose both currently? The riots/protests? Thats kind of a the straw that broke the camels back issue thats mixed in there, wasnt it?


That may seem logical for your country's culture, but I prioritize freedom over all else.


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## Badda (Sep 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> That may seem logical for your country's culture, but I prioritize freedom over all else.


Your personal freedom always ends where it takes away the freedom of others. Example: You take your freedom to go out, not wear a mask and get infected. Thats your right. But: If you start infecting others as soon as you're infected, thats not your right.
Why do you stick to traffic rules? Isn't it your freedom to drive on the left side? Maybe it is - but this way you endanger no only yourself (you're free to do so), but also others (which sucks). Get my point?


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## UltraSUPRA (Sep 27, 2020)

Badda said:


> Your personal freedom always ends where it takes away the freedom of others. Example: You take your freedom to go out, not wear a mask and get infected. Thats your right. But: If you start infecting others as soon as you're infected, thats not your right.
> Why do you stick to traffic rules? Isn't it your freedom to drive on the left side? Maybe it is - but this way you endanger no only yourself (you're free to do so), but also others (which sucks). Get my point?


Now do abortion.


Side note, I'm tired of people comparing the Coronavirus (less than 1% fatality rate, majority asymptomatic) to a car crash (near-guaranteed injuries for everyone involved).


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## Badda (Sep 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Now do abortion..


That's a completely different discussion - this is about when human life starts, not about freedom ...


UltraSUPRA said:


> Side note, I'm tired of people comparing the Coronavirus (less than 1% fatality rate, majority asymptomatic) to a car crash (near-guaranteed injuries for everyone involved).


You might want to tell that to the people slowly suffocating while hooked up to a tube. By the way, the real problem is not the fatality but the people who survive with severe body damage. I know one personally - a neighbour of mine (around 45 years, no previous illness) caught the virus, he barely survived it - but his kidneys did not survive, so he has to do daily dialysis. Sometimes the living envy the dead ...


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## omgcat (Sep 27, 2020)

I'd wager that Franklin would be incredibly saddened by the anti-maskers. The solution to this disease is temporary masking and lock down, not permanent lock down. he would be disgusted at the lack of care and empathy for the sick and dying, especially with how simple the solution is. he would be sickened with the politicization of health, and the selfishness of American citizens compared to other countries. if we are to care about how the founding fathers would feel right now, at least be historically accurate about their portrayal. There was a smallpox epidemic from 1775-1782, and quarantines were very proactive and supported, as well as inoculations when available. be what the founding fathers wanted us to be, compassionate, patriotic, and not fucking brain dead retarded; wear the piece of cloth.


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## notimp (Sep 28, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Now do abortion.
> 
> 
> Side note, I'm tired of people comparing the Coronavirus (less than 1% fatality rate, majority asymptomatic) to a car crash (near-guaranteed injuries for everyone involved).


If you go by the current fatality rate the CDC proposes and extrapolate that to 60% of americans infected, thats 1.2 million americans dead. Also not only does that number matter but also how fast people having it arrive at hospitals. If they are overwhelemed for two months, and their infrastructure breaks down, you'll have more deaths and a 'society stopped working' moment you dont want too many people to reflect on.

Also take the FOX numbers you posted there you had fatality numbers of 5% in people over 75? Now imagine, that that is the most loyal voterbase for politicians.

It is recognized by now, that you 'cant ruin young peoples prospects' over this, or ruin the economy, so people that are planning reactions are trying not to resort to full shutdowns of entire cities, if they can prevent them, even at death numbers that would be a little increased (depending on how much money you have to burn, New Zealand afair still does it differently), but wearing facemasks f.e. is never considered to be 'a major sacrifice on part of citizens', because arguably - it isnt.

Also, the businesses hurting most (gastronomy, high foot traffic dependent ones), would take an almost equal hit from people changing behavior on their own (to have that coordenated still is better for the outcome), so its not all 'the states fault' people react differently during periods of perceived threat.

You can even criticize measures as 'too harsh' or 'too shortsighted', but especially in the US, at 7x (?) access deaths over a short period in cities like NY in the 'nobody knew about it and acted like it wasnt there' scenario, it is easy to imagine a scenario where hospitals become overwhelmed. Which is what you try to prevent as societies.


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## UltraSUPRA (Sep 28, 2020)

notimp said:


> If you go by the current fatality rate the CDC proposes and ectrapolate that to 60% of americans infected, thats 1.2 million americans dead.


None of whom are preventable.


notimp said:


> Also not only does that number matter but also how fast people having it arrive at hospitals. If they are overwhelemed for two months, and their infrastructure breaks down, you'll have more deaths and a 'society stopped working' moment you dont want too many people to reflect on.
> 
> Also take the FOX numbers you posted there you had fatality numbers of 5% in people over 75? Now imagine, that that is the most loyal voterbase for politicians.
> 
> ...


Build more hospitals.


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## notimp (Sep 28, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> None of whom are preventable.
> 
> Build more hospitals.


Not possible short term, also something you'd want to prevent having to do longterm (because spikes arent linear growth, nor natural (base) demand growth, so you'd have access capacity, that then is not needed from one moment to the next, and then youd have to close them again, and fire people... in short, its not economical). Besides economics, its not a facilities issue, but an issue of medical personal burning out and stopping to go to work - you simply cant scale up 'lets have more health care workers' in less than lets say 5 years time. Thats not possible.

Plus, you'd then have the military in in certain cities, organizing the transport to cremation facilities and graveyards (like you lowkey already had in the past), which screams to people 'society failed' even louder. As a politician trying to get reelected, thats something you try to prevent.

edit: Here thats about the minimum you need to do:
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/arti...dens-coronavirus-strategy-will-soon-be-worlds

You can even 'haggle' a little on mask wearing (in principal, not always in practice  ), but only if your people comply to other behavior changes 
https://www.thelocal.se/20200730/fa...and-sweden-what-do-we-know-and-whos-said-what

edit: Graphs:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden


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## notimp (Sep 28, 2020)

Also US isnt under curfew anymore:
https://web.archive.org/web/2020092...ve/2020/us/states-reopen-map-coronavirus.html

I'd say at all, but then I'd have to scroll all the way down, to check.. 

edit Ah no, I finally understood the graph at the top. 

Closed:
Retail stores: nowhere
Restaurants: WA, NY, CA, L, PR
Hair saloons: nowhere
Houses of worship: CA
Gyms: CA, AZ
Entertainment facilities: not available (not part of the top graphs, would have to scroll)


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## emigre (Sep 30, 2020)

This is easily one of the stupidest things I've seen on the temp and I've seen a lot of stupid shit. Is curtailing our lives vaguely enjoyable, no. Is it worthwhile to prevent people from dying, yes.

I was talking with someone from work about this earlier, feeling fed up is very normal but you got to go what you got to do protect others.


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## Hanafuda (Sep 30, 2020)

The Ben Franklin quote I like the most is, "There'll be time enough for sleeping in the grave."


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## UltraSUPRA (Sep 30, 2020)

emigre said:


> This is easily one of the stupidest things I've seen on the temp and I've seen a lot of stupid shit. Is curtailing our lives vaguely enjoyable, no. Is it worthwhile to prevent people from dying, yes.
> 
> I was talking with someone from work about this earlier, feeling fed up is very normal but you got to go what you got to do protect others.


You've got to crack a few eggs to make a big freedom omelet.


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