# Rep. Urges Democratic Party Removed for Historically Supporting Racism



## SG854 (Jul 24, 2020)




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## Shadow#1 (Jul 24, 2020)

SG854 said:


>


Gohmert is an idiot as the fact is the Democratic party of that time is the Republican party of today


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## Xzi (Jul 24, 2020)

So I guess "historically" supporting racism is a big no-no, but his party flying confederate flags and supporting racism _to this day_ is perfectly fine with Mr. Gohmert.


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 24, 2020)

Xzi said:


> So I guess "historically" supporting racism is a big no-no, but his party flying confederate flags and supporting racism _to this day_ is perfectly fine with Mr. Gohmert.


Ikr


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 24, 2020)

Xzi said:


> So I guess "historically" supporting racism is a big no-no, but his party flying confederate flags and supporting racism _to this day_ is perfectly fine with Mr. Gohmert.


How are we racists?


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 24, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> How are we racists?


Um he just stated how


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 24, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> Um he just stated how


So just because a few of us wave a flag that once had some sort of tie to slavery, we're _all_ racist?


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 24, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> So just because a few of us wave a flag that once had some sort of tie to slavery, we're _all_ racist?


Yep


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 24, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> Yep


The Confederate flag is an important part of US history.


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 24, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> The Confederate flag is an important part of US history.


The racist part it's a trader flag they tried to overthrow America


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 24, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> The racist part it's a trader flag they tried to overthrow America


So you're saying that the Dems always hated America?


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 24, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> So you're saying that the Dems always hated America?





Shadow#1 said:


> Gohmert is an idiot as the fact is the Democratic party of that time is the Republican party of today


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 24, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> Gohmert is an idiot as the fact is the Democratic party of that time is the Republican party of today


Um...no, that "big switcheroo" was Lyndon B. Johnson seeing that black people could vote now and saying, *AND I QUOTE*, that "if the n*****s can vote, we might as well make them vote for us."


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## Chary (Jul 24, 2020)

People get so caught up with their little red team blue team shenanigans. Neither of these parties are "for" you, the people, realistically. The lobbyists, the money-grubbing. To assign yourself to a little political sports team and hinge upon it so drastically is laughable. 

Who cares if there was a switch or not. Racists are racists, party alignment or not.


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## Hanafuda (Jul 24, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> The racist part it's a trader flag they *tried to overthrow America*



I ain't really got a dog in this hunt, but what you said in your post there ... incorrect. The Confederate States did not seek to "overthrow America." They sought to leave, like a Brexit, from the Union of States. Before the Civil War the federal govt. was a much less significant entity, most people considered themselves a citizen of a State first. Without getting into debating over what the Civil War was even about, the Confederate States did not seek to overthrow or occupy or rule the USA. They just wanted out. They wanted their own country. The Northern States wouldn't allow them to leave, and the rest is history. What Constitutional authority the Northern States were relying on to claim that no State could ever leave once they joined, I have no idea.


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## Xzi (Jul 24, 2020)

Chary said:


> Who cares if there was a switch or not. Racists are racists, party alignment or not.


Agreed, there are plenty of DINOs out there as well who use their party alignment as cover for implicit/explicit racism.  The rich and powerful seek to continue exploiting racial tensions because they can play both sides of a race war, whereas a class war threatens all the gains they've made on the backs of others.

That said, as much as I dislike Joe Biden, I can't envision him deploying a secret police force to cities simply for protesting police brutality.  The actions Trump is taking currently are undeniably racist at their core, and the entire GOP is complicit, if not actively cheering him on.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

Both parties were racist an are still racist. Neither has your best interests at heart, democracy in the US is a sham mired in corporate and bourgeoise money and always has been.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Xzi said:


> That said, as much as I dislike Joe Biden, I can't envision him deploying a secret police force to cities simply for protesting police brutality.  The actions Trump is taking currently are undeniably racist at their core, and the entire GOP is complicit, if not actively cheering him on.


The protestors are burning down buildings with people inside them.


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## Xzi (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> The protestors are burning down buildings with people inside them.


Even if this were true, and I've seen no evidence to support such a claim, it would be a matter for state and local police to handle.  Feds with unmarked vehicles and no identification on their person swooping in to detain protestors is a violation of both the first and tenth amendments, not to mention it's kidnapping.  

Anybody can purchase the type of gear they're using at an Army surplus store, and anybody can drive a windowless van.  Eventually Trump is going to get a federal officer shot and/or killed in a "stand your ground" state, and part of me believes that's his entire motive for doing this, so that he can escalate things even further and enact martial law.


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## omgcat (Jul 25, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> I ain't really got a dog in this hunt, but what you said in your post there ... incorrect. The Confederate States did not seek to "overthrow America." They sought to leave, like a Brexit, from the Union of States. Before the Civil War the federal govt. was a much less significant entity, most people considered themselves a citizen of a State first. Without getting into debating over what the Civil War was even about, the Confederate States did not seek to overthrow or occupy or rule the USA. They just wanted out. They wanted their own country. The Northern States wouldn't allow them to leave, and the rest is history. What Constitutional authority the Northern States were relying on to claim that no State could ever leave once they joined, I have no idea.



they sought to leave to retain their slaves. all you need to do is look at the confederate constitution. Specifically look at the amendments made. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Constitution#Slavery

some key points are:

*Article I Section 9(4)*
_No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in n**** slaves shall be passed._[14]
         no bills or laws can be passed to remove n****'s who are property.

*Article IV Section 2(1)*
_The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired._
          If you bring you're slaves to the confederate states, they remain slaves.

*Article IV Section 3(3)*
_The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several states; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form states to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory, the institution of n**** slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress, and by the territorial government: and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories, shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the states or territories of the Confederate states._
         If the confederate states take territory, slavery is now legal there.

Anyone who does not think that slavery was the core part of why the confederate states were founded is ignorant at best, and purposefully disingenuous at worst.

*Also the Cornerstone speech written by the only vice president of the confederacy:*

Stephens's speech declared that disagreements over the enslavement of African Americans were the "immediate cause" of secession and that the Confederate constitution had resolved such issues, saying:

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—*African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the n**** in our form of civilization.* This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. [...] Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."[4]

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the n**** is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.

May we not therefore look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Xzi said:


> I've seen no evidence to support such a claim


https://www.nationalreview.com/news...polis-pawn-shop-burned-in-george-floyd-riots/


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.nationalreview.com/news...polis-pawn-shop-burned-in-george-floyd-riots/


For the record, while the building was burned down, there is no official cause of death listed nor do we even know who died. On top of that, this body was discovered 3 days ago and the building was burned down almost 2 months ago.

While I'm not outright denying that this person died due to the fire, it would be disingenuous to claim that they did in fact die from the fire. It seems quite odd to me that it took almost 2 months for the body to be discovered even though authorities already knew about the burned building almost 2 months ago. Reread your article and other related articles and notice the words "allegedly" and "claim" that show up pretty often, most of this is based purely on conjecture from the police (who can't be considered a reliable source anyway).

Regardless, this is one instance. I find it odd that you make the broad claim that "The protestors are burning down buildings with people inside them." Despite only having one article with dubious evidence in the form of your article to support it.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Regardless, this is one instance. I find it odd that you make the broad claim that "The protestors are burning down buildings with people inside them." Despite only having one article with dubious evidence in the form of your article to support it.


Even still, arson in general is a huge crime.


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> For the record, while the building was burned down, there is no official cause of death listed nor do we even know who died. On top of that, this body was discovered 3 days ago and the building was burned down almost 2 months ago.
> 
> While I'm not outright denying that this person died due to the fire, it would be disingenuous to claim that they did in fact die from the fire. It seems quite odd to me that it took almost 2 months for the body to be discovered even though authorities already knew about the burned building almost 2 months ago. Reread your article and other related articles and notice the words "allegedly" and "claim" that show up pretty often, most of this is based purely on conjecture from the police (who can't be considered a reliable source anyway).
> 
> Regardless, this is one instance. I find it odd that you make the broad claim that "The protestors are burning down buildings with people inside them." Despite only having one article with dubious evidence in the form of your article to support it.


It's just ther way of justifying what Trump is doing


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Even still, arson in general is a huge crime.


Is it really that huge though? At least protestors aren't committing literal war crimes (tear gas is banned in warfare, but I'm sure you already knew that) and using Gestapo tactics against civilians. I think you should care more about our authoritarian state attacking and arresting people without probable cause than some burnt buildings. Buildings can be rebuilt, they have insurance. It's not that easy for people facing state-sponsored violence in the streets every day.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Bigger than not wearing a mask, that's for sure.


People are getting killed and maimed by the police daily, why do you care so much about some buildings when this is the reality we live in? I've seen people shot in the head by officers, I've seen a person have a seizure because a tear gas canister was fired into their chest, I've seen police chase down people simply for removing a tear gas canister from a homeless encampment. I've seen old people shoved, I've seen bones broken, I've seen people pulled off the streets by secret police just because they wore black. I've seen homeless people forcibly removed by police, I've seen a man kicked down and brutalized by police, I've seen police firing on medic and supply stations designed to help people *who had been harmed by the police.* I've seen a 7-year old pepper-sprayed by police, I've seen parents separated from their children and I've seen people shot and killed by police.

Where are your priorities man? Wake up.


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> People are getting killed and maimed by the police daily, why do you care so much about some buildings when this is the reality we live in? I've seen people shot in the head by officers, I've seen a person have a seizure because a tear gas canister was fired into their chest, I've seen police chase down people simply for removing a tear gas canister from a homeless encampment. I've seen old people shoved, I've seen bones broken, I've seen people pulled off the streets by secret police just because they wore black. I've seen homeless people forcibly removed by police, I've seen a man kicked down and brutalized by police, I've seen police firing on medic and supply stations designed to help people *who had been harmed by the police.* I've seen a 7-year old pepper-sprayed by police, I've seen parents separated from their children and I've seen people shot and killed by police.
> 
> Where are your priorities man? Wake up.


He's a racist


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> People are getting killed and maimed by the police daily, why do you care so much about some buildings when this is the reality we live in? I've seen people shot in the head by officers, I've seen a person have a seizure because a tear gas canister was fired into their chest, I've seen police chase down people simply for removing a tear gas canister from a homeless encampment. I've seen old people shoved, I've seen bones broken, I've seen people pulled off the streets by secret police just because they wore black. I've seen homeless people forcibly removed by police, I've seen a man kicked down and brutalized by police, I've seen police firing on medic and supply stations designed to help people *who had been harmed by the police.* I've seen a 7-year old pepper-sprayed by police, I've seen parents separated from their children and I've seen people shot and killed by police.
> 
> Where are your priorities man? Wake up.


But _did_ you?


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> But _did_ you?


Yes. I did.

This video has footage demonstrating everything I've mention and more, I highly suggest you watch it.


You can look up almost anything I've said and you can find footage of it. Use your brain. This is only going to get worse too, look up operation LeGend, Trump's plan to expand the violence from not just Portland, but to the rest of the United States as well. These are all things you should worry about. Not some buildings.


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## SickPuppy (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Yes. I did.
> 
> This video has footage demonstrating everything I've mention and more, I highly suggest you watch it.
> 
> ...




This video has good footage too, watch the entire video


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## morvoran (Jul 25, 2020)

It's about time somebody goes after the true racist organization that has been ruining America and causing so much destruction of not only democrat ran cities but our society as a whole.

You can protest that confederate statues need to be removed even though they are inanimate objects doing no harm and argue that police shouldn't kill lifelong criminals that intend to kill them first, but you, definitely, should not ignore the source of all your grief which has always been the power hungry democrat party. 

I salute Rep. Gohmert for taking this brave stand against this oppressive cult.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

SickPuppy said:


> This video has good footage too, watch the entire video



What does this have to do with US state violence against civilians? Seems like you've just got an anti-semitic vendetta against George Soros. Qanon is a joke, I don't know why you're linking me to conspiracy theories after I've given hard evidence of Trump's hard authoritarianism.


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## SickPuppy (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> What does this have to do with US state violence against civilians? Seems like you've just got an anti-semitic vendetta against George Soros. Qanon is a joke.



Socialism will not win in America.


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## Chary (Jul 25, 2020)

QAnon is still around in <<current year>>? 2020 sure is a wild ride.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

SickPuppy said:


> Socialism will not win in America.


K bud whatever you say go be anti-semitic somewhere else, please.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> K bud whatever you say go be anti-semitic somewhere else, please.


Please translate Nationa Socialism to German.


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 25, 2020)

SickPuppy said:


> Socialism will not win in America.


Medicare, Medicare, VA, social security these have all been labeled as sosialist programs by the Republicans and they r thriving so yes socialism done win in America


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Please translate Nationa Socialism to German.


I assume you mean National Socialism?
Google says it's "Nationalsozialismus"
Is that what you wanted?


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## Joe88 (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Is it really that huge though? At least protestors aren't committing literal war crimes (tear gas is banned in warfare, but I'm sure you already knew that) and using Gestapo tactics against civilians. I think you should care more about our authoritarian state attacking and arresting people without probable cause than some burnt buildings. Buildings can be rebuilt, they have insurance. It's not that easy for people facing state-sponsored violence in the streets every day.


"Peaceful protestors" burning down buildings isnt that huge? (and thats not even including all the other violence, looting, mass destruction of public and private property, assaults, rapes, and in some cases murder).
And in fact alot of these buildings can not be rebuilt because many of the small business owners were minorities in a low income neighborhood, they couldn't afford the insurance. I guess it's okay when you take something that somebody worked their whole life for and burn it all to the ground and claim it was for black lives matter. This is not a civilized society, its just anarchy and chaos which i'm sure is what antifa wants.


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## SickPuppy (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> K bud whatever you say go be anti-semitic somewhere else, please.



The constitution does not guarantee anybody the right to a violent protest. These people that come out night after night to create damage, riot, loot, and murder or attempted murder are domestic terrorists, and should be treated as such.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> I assume you mean National Socialism?
> Google says it's "*Na*tionalso*zi*alismus"
> Is that what you wanted?


Yup.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

SickPuppy said:


> The constitution does not guarantee anybody the right to a violent protest. These people that come out night after night to create damage, riot, loot, and murder or attempted murder are domestic terrorists, and should be treated as such.


They'd be peaceful if police stopped attacking us.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Yup.


Okay very cool here's a guide on how to use Google Translate next time you need it.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/how-to-use-google-translate-app/#:~:text=With the Tap to Translate,on the app near instantly.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Okay very cool here's a guide on how to use Google Translate next time you need it.
> https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/how-to-use-google-translate-app/#:~:text=With the Tap to Translate,on the app near instantly.


Reread what I quoted.


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## SickPuppy (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> They'd be peaceful if police stopped attacking us.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Just because the police are there is no reason for anybody to go into a destructive rage. Who goes out a protests something for 60 days. These people are out there for one reason only, and it's not for George Floyd.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Reread what I quoted.


Yes, Nazi is the shortened form of Nationalsozialismus, anyone who has taken a high school history class knows this.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Yes, Nazi is the shortened form of Nationalsozialismus, anyone who has taken a high school history class knows this.


Which translates to...?


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Which translates to...?


*National Socialism.* Again, anyone who has taken a high school history class knows this.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> *National Socialism.* Again, anyone who has taken a high school history class knows this.


Now put the pieces together...


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Now put the pieces together...


Good god just make the point you're trying to make. National Socialism is not, nor was it ever socialism. Read some of Hitler's speeches or read Mein Kampf where he directly denounces socialism. Literally some of the first people rounded up by the Nazis were *actual socialists. 
https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/ *check out this link for more info.

Do you think National Socialism is Socialism just because it has Socialism in the name? Do you think the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) is either Democratic or the People's or even a Republic just because it has Democratic people's Republic in the name? Would you believe me if I told you that I'm an actual prince from a video game just because my online name is Seliph, based on a video game character?

Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about Socialism or Nazis or Fascism or basic history would understand that the Nazis were not Socialists and you look like a fool when you suggest that Nazis could ever be considered Socialists in the first place.

When you call the Nazis Socialist you are literally giving into and believing actual Nazi propaganda, not a good look.


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## Xzi (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Now put the pieces together...


Nothing but strawmen and bad faith arguments from you.  How are the pieces supposed to "come together" when self-proclaimed nationalists in America are part of the alt-right, and socialism is an economic philosophy embraced only by the left?  Much like anarcho-capitalism, it makes no goddamn sense from a historical (see Seliph's post) or modern perspective.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Do you think National Socialism is Socialism just because it has Socialism in the name? Do you think the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) is either Democratic or the People's or even a Republic just because it has Democratic people's Republic in the name? Would you believe me if I told you that I'm an actual prince from a video game just because my online name is Seliph, based on a video game character?


Do you believe ANTIFA are anti-fascist, simply because it's in the name?
Do you believe Black Lives Matter supports black lives, just because it's in the name?

No, those are Marxist terrorist groups using people like you as fodder for their own protection.
They don't care about you, they care about their movement and nothing else. Otherwise, they wouldn't be killing innocent old ladies.

I'll put it this way: Black Lives Matter is the Klu Klux Klan for black people.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Do you believe ANTIFA are anti-fascist, simply because it's in the name?
> Do you believe Black Lives Matter supports black lives, just because it's in the name?
> 
> No, those are Marxist terrorist groups using people like you as fodder for their own protection.
> ...


No, I believe Antifa is Antifascist due to the movement's history of fighting fascism, literally read the Wikipedia page about Antifa and read about its history and you'll find that it was literally established to fight Fascism and you'll find the instances Anti-Fascists fought fascism, read about the battle of Cable Street, a literal example of Antifa fighting Fascists. I also believe Black Lives Matter supports black lives. The movement has been there every time a black person is killed by the police. They've fought for the rights of black people, and continue to fight for a more just society, so of course, they support black lives.

Unlike your words about National Socialism, I actually know what I'm talking about. I don't believe Antifa is Anti-Fascist because of its name and I don't believe BLM is pro-black because of its name, I believe those things because time and time again Anti-Fascists have been there to fight Fascism and time and time again BLM supporters have been there to fight for black lives and black rights. 

Also, Marxism is cool. You clearly know nothing about the ideology.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Also, Marxism is cool. You clearly know nothing about the ideology.


Marxism has never worked.


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## dude1 (Jul 25, 2020)

National Socialism is Socialism its just not as socialist as your run of the mill Communism.
Communism and Nazism are two sides of the socialist coin.
the only truly successful thing i think the left and media have done was somehow convince the general public Nazi's were somehow a rightwing ideology, despite not being socially or economically right-wing.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Marxism has never worked.


What does that even mean? Marxism is an ideology, not a form of government or economic system. Saying Marxism has never worked is like saying Christianity has never worked, it makes no sense.


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## chrisrlink (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> What does that even mean? Marxism is an ideology, not a form of government or economic system. Saying Marxism has never worked is like saying Christianity has never worked, it makes no sense.


well considering Christianity is hypocritical of itself (Love thy Neighbor and anti homosexual idealology) and considering it was basicly like the medieval version of isis (the crusades you know convert to christianity  or die?) i would say christianity if not ALL religion "doesn't work"


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

chrisrlink said:


> well considering Christianity is hypocritical of itself (Love thy Neighbor and anti homosexual idealology)


A-are you having sex with yourself?





chrisrlink said:


> considering it was basicly like the medieval version of isis (the crusades you know convert to christianity  or die?) i would say christianity if not ALL religion "doesn't work"


Every group of everyone has extremists.


Seliph said:


> What does that even mean? Marxism is an ideology, not a form of government or economic system. Saying Marxism has never worked is like saying Christianity has never worked, it makes no sense.


Name one successful Socialist or Communist society.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Name one successful Socialist or Communist society.


Vietnam.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Vietnam.


You mean the place where the government is shooting people down because of stolen crops?


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## Hanafuda (Jul 25, 2020)

omgcat said:


> they sought to leave to retain their slaves. all you need to do is look at the confederate constitution.



You're arguing about something I never even discussed. I said the Confederate States wanted to leave the Union. They did not want to "overthrow the United States" which is what the person to whom I was replying said. I never discussed anything about WHY the Confederates wanted to found their own nation, nor did I say they had any good reason for doing so. (mostly because there's no reason for this thread to go there) I only said that it was incorrect to represent that they wanted to overthrow the United States. They wanted to dissolve their membership in the Union, similar to the UK "Brexit" from the EU, and AFAIK there was no legal mechanism in the Constitution that would prevent that at the time.


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> You mean the place where the government is shooting people down because of stolen crops?


No, I'm talking about Vietnam. What are you talking about? Nothing shows up when I search "Vietnam stolen crops shooting".

Also, that's pretty ironic that you're calling Vietnam a failed state due to some alleged shooting over crops while police in the US have shot and killed people just because they're black. By your logic, would that not make the US a failed state as well?


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> What are you talking about?


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## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


>



Buddy, that's Venezuela you're talking about, not Vietnam. And Venezuela's problems are a whole other can of worms.

Plus, Turning Point USA is a terrible source anyways, their content is funded by the Koch brothers (or I guess you could say brother now, one of them died) who (along with their affiliates) are some of the leaders in causing Climate Change. They're also funded by Dennis Prager, a known liar and general loser. I can send you a million videos debunking PragerU's BS but I know you won't watch them. Turning Point USA is a biased misinformation campaign funded by rich conservatives. I wouldn't trust it.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 25, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Buddy, that's Venezuela you're talking about, not Vietnam.


Oh. I got confused. I'm a bit tired.
Send me some proof that Vietnam is any better off.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 25, 2020)

Typical copout smh


----------



## Seliph (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Oh. I got confused. I'm a bit tired.
> Send me some proof that Vietnam is any better off.


This is the last reply you're getting

Zero Corona deaths (barely any cases either)
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/23/vietnam-zero-coronavirus-deaths.html
This video outlining how police work in Vietnam (spoilers, they have a much better record than police in the US)

Price of living in Vietnam is very affordable
https://alittleadrift.com/cost-of-l...fast-growing,than that of neighboring nations.
A video outlining how Socialism works in Vietnam

Here's some info on poverty rates in Vietnam (they've been steadily improving over time, their economy took a very big hit due to the Vietnam war and US sanctions, but Vietnam has recovered pretty admirably)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Vietnam
The Vietnam government has a very positive record on LGBT rights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_...2015, Vietnam,nearby Thailand for the surgery.

There's more too. Vietnam is not a perfect place, it has been greatly harmed by imperialism in the form of French colonialism and later the Vietnam war, which some people would say the US "bombed Vietnam into the stone age". Since the Vietnam War, Vietnam has taken great strides in reconstruction and rebuilding and is a promising Socialist state to this day. I'd certainly feel much safer living there than in the US.


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Jul 25, 2020)

Ah so the Reps are playing the Dems "cancel culture" game.
Interesting how the Dems cancellations have been backfiring on their asses lol


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Jul 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> So just because a few of us wave a flag that once had some sort of tie to slavery, we're _all_ racist?


you know i hardly get involved in politics anymore but i am gonna take a neutral stance for all you chickledees and educate you all with an interesting fun fact.

The confederate flag that most people are complaining about having taken away from them is this one (I am not saying specifically you btw, just a lot of people in general. picture courtesy of wikipedia):







interestingly, that flag is NOT the original confederate flag. This one began being used mostly as a kneejerk reaction by some folks due to the civil rights movement in the 60's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag

interestingly enough most folks dont even know the original confederate flag looks like:






there is a second one created that does contain a partial image of the flag on top but its mostly white:






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

just figured i educated folks before they continue their passionate debate.



as for me, there is only one flag that i love and its this one:







as for the whole "one party was racist i want it cancelled" demographics have shifted and while neither party is innocent, the whole debacle is ridiculous.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jul 25, 2020)

WD_GASTER2 said:


> the whole debacle is ridiculous.




The left seems to have no sense of humor whatsoever, but believe it or not "the whole debacle is ridiculous" was exactly Gohmert's point in proposing that the Democratic Party should be abolished. He's just taking the left's arguments for vilifying the USA and filling in blanks with different words.This is 2020, not 1619 or 1860 or whatever other year the little Marxists want to whine about (without knowing much of a fucking thing about actual history).


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Jul 25, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> The left seems to have no sense of humor whatsoever, but believe it or not "the whole debacle is ridiculous" was exactly Gohmert's point in proposing that the Democratic Party should be abolished. He's just taking the left's arguments for vilifying the USA and filling in blanks with different words.This is 2020, not 1619 or 1860 or whatever other year the little Marxists want to whine about (without knowing much of a fucking thing about actual history).


thats nice but you know what would be better?
if Gohmert was doing something of substance in the middle of a pandemic instead of whinning about the culture war.
you mark my words, with the current unemployment rate and healthcare issues looming in the country, no normal voter (outside of those that eat sleep and breathe politics) can give 2 chili dogs about a rep making a grandstanding to trigger "little marxists" or whatever people want to call them. Leaning into culture war stuff in the upcoming election is going to be a losing strategy (dont try to get smart either, this goes for republicans and democrats alike).
there is a bunch of people that have been behind their rent since april-may.
there is people getting charged 30k+ for their hospital stays due to covid

current unemployment rate is 11.1..
the unemployment rate when bush was landslided in 2008 was 10 percent or so.

i mean politicians can feel free to do as they wish but there is gonna be a large pissed off voting block in november.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jul 25, 2020)

WD_GASTER2 said:


> thats nice but you know what would be better?
> if Gohmert was doing something of substance in the middle of a pandemic instead of whinning about the culture war.



You're just going off topic.

Besides, nothing gets done in the House unless the Democrats want it done. There really isn't anything "of substance" as a politician that Gohmert can even do vis a vis the "pandemic", except maybe some local assistance for his constituents. And this 'reading into the record' goes on all day every day in Congress ... there's no exceptional waste of time being committed here, just the same old waste of time they all do.


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Jul 25, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> You're just going off topic.



I do not see what is so offtopic about me saying that a politician should be doing his job instead of the silly little stunt he just pulled which is the title of the topic of the thread.

as for your follow up statement, you have some low expectations of your elected officials. Even the ones that seem to align more with your interests. that is your perogative and your view of how business should be. I disagree

Either way. im off the thread. I came here to educate people on a minor detail. most discussions tend to go in circles in this section of the forum


----------



## CallmeBerto (Jul 25, 2020)

I'm glad to see that my tax dollars are going towards something so important unlikely the unemployment rate.

Wow so much win.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 26, 2020)

SickPuppy said:


> Just because the police are there is no reason for anybody to go into a destructive rage. Who goes out a protests something for 60 days. These people are out there for one reason only, and it's not for George Floyd.


Who r u to determine what they out there for?


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 26, 2020)

You are right, this isn't the past. Let's join the other 1st World countries and do Universal Healthcare. 

Random Guy: Communism! Socialism!


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 26, 2020)

KingVamp said:


> You are right, this isn't the past. Let's join the other 1st World countries and do Universal Healthcare.
> 
> Random Guy: Communism! Socialism!


Labor isn't free.


----------



## Seliph (Jul 26, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Labor isn't free.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

No one is disputing that fact.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 26, 2020)

Seliph said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
> 
> No one is disputing that fact.


What the uneducated non thinker is saying is if we have universal healthcare that means the workers have to work for free and that's not the truth


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 26, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> What the uneducated non thinker is saying is if we have universal healthcare that means the workers have to work for free and that's not the truth


It'd increase our taxes out the wazoo. Taxes should be reduced, to as little as possible.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 26, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> It'd increase our taxes out the wazoo. Taxes should be reduced, to as little as possible.


We need more taxes


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 26, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> We need more taxes


How are we going to lift people out of poverty if all their money is going to the government?


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 26, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> How are we going to lift people out of poverty if all their money is going to the government?


It doesn't matter where it goes to we spend way too much on Healthcare as it is with Universal Health Care that price will go way down


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 26, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> It doesn't matter where it goes to we spend way too much on Healthcare as it is with Universal Health Care that price will go way down


No, the price will be higher and the quality will be lower.


----------



## arjunpatel (Jul 27, 2020)

lamo this is why politics should never be mentioned in a GAMING site if you want that news go somewhere else my opinion at least. It always turns into a Shitshow.


----------



## guisadop (Jul 27, 2020)

this is pretty cringe. racism has been something common for like, 99% of human history. we can't judge the people of yesterday with today's laws and morals. maybe in the future people will cancel gandhi for eating plants, who knows? acknowledge that it was a bad thing that we have evolved from and move on.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 27, 2020)

arjunpatel said:


> lamo this is why politics should never be mentioned in a GAMING site if you want that news go somewhere else my opinion at least. It always turns into a Shitshow.


I mean, let's not pretend this was posted with the intent of being informative or providing news to begin with.  It's purely political theater, and I'm guessing that, based on the timing, Gohmert's entire speech was a weak attempt to distract from Ted Yoho accosting AOC on the capitol steps with a misogynistic rant.


----------



## orangy57 (Jul 27, 2020)

how can that man be a part of the House of Representatives and not understand that the parties had an ideological shift like 100-150 years ago


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

Orangy57 said:


> how can that man be a part of the House of Representatives and not understand that the parties had an ideological shift like 100-150 years ago


They didn't.
What happened is that Lyndon B. Johnson said, and I quote, "if the n*ggers are able to vote, they might as well vote for us".


----------



## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> They didn't.
> What happened is that Lyndon B. Johnson said, and I quote, "if the n*ggers are able to vote, they might as well vote for us".


Really gross that I even had to type out the N-word to look this up, but not only is your quote not the original quote, but we also don't even know if the original quote even exists.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/

Not that I'm defending LBJ though, every US president has been terrible. LBJ definitely was racist of course, but your quote doesn't exist.

I think the idea of an ideological shift is silly anyways. Democrats and Republicans are more or less both different sides of the same Neoliberal coin. Both parties have had always had racist members and racist policies and still have racist members and racist policies. They should both be "canceled".


----------



## MFDC12 (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'm talking about taxes.
> Doctors have control over healthcare pricing, which in your """""utopia""""" would be paid by taxes.
> If you don't pay taxes, you go to jail.
> Because of this, doctors can have as fat of a paycheck as they want, while barely doing jack squat.



You are aware the end goal of socialism (communism) and the entire concept of anarcho-<insert flavor of anarchism here other than "capitalism" which isn't anarchism> in general there are no jails/money/taxes/classes/hierarchies, correct? I don't really understand the point you are trying to get at.

edit: also, forgot to say, even if taxes were increased today they aren't going to raise taxes for low/middle class people (and if they did, it'll be minimal and I'd happily pay a bit more to you know, provide healthcare for everyone), they are going to tax billionaires the most


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

MFDC12 said:


> You are aware the end goal of socialism (communism) and the entire concept of anarcho-<insert flavor of anarchism here other than "capitalism" which isn't anarchism> in general there are no jails/money/taxes/classes/hierarchies, correct? I don't really understand the point you are trying to get at.


The point I'm trying to get at is that people should be able to keep more of what they earn. However, in a communist society, you earn nothing, and in a tax-funded occupation, you earn the same no matter what, so why work at all?


MFDC12 said:


> edit: also, forgot to say, even if taxes were increased today they aren't going to raise taxes for low/middle class people (and if they did, it'll be minimal and I'd happily pay a bit more to you know, provide healthcare for everyone), they are going to tax billionaires the most


That's not flat.


Seliph said:


> Not that I'm defending LBJ though, every US president has been terrible. LBJ definitely was racist of course, but your quote doesn't exist.
> 
> I think the idea of an ideological shift is silly anyways. Democrats and Republicans are more or less both different sides of the same Neoliberal coin. Both parties have had always had racist members and racist policies and still have racist members and racist policies. They should both be "canceled".


If you hate America so much, why not move to a Communist society like Cuba?


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Xzi said:


> So I guess "historically" supporting racism is a big no-no, but his party flying confederate flags and supporting racism _to this day_ is perfectly fine with Mr. Gohmert.


Right just like it also a no-no to have statues of historical racists. And tbf not all of his party our supporters of racism nor does it matter if they fly the confederate flag your party’s the reason it was deemed racist.


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## Shadow#1 (Jul 27, 2020)

A flat tax only hurts the low/middle class


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> A flat tax only hurts the low/middle class


It encourages us to get better jobs that pay more.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> It encourages us to get better jobs that pay more.


That cost more money


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> I think the idea of an ideological shift is silly anyways. Democrats and Republicans are more or less both different sides of the same Neoliberal coin. Both parties have had always had racist members and racist policies and still have racist members and racist policies. They should both be "canceled".


What should they be replaced with communism? That be quite Ironic lol many people fled their own countries to legally be here to be rid of communism and its similar parties for this country just to become what they wanted to be rid of


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> That cost more money


So you need to pay to have a job?


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> So you need to pay to have a job?


Yes to have a better job


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> Yes to have a better job


How does that even make any sense?


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> So you need to pay to have a job?


I guess that’s what he said so it looks like I can get a job if I don’t have any money to buy my position that can be taken away from me


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> How does that even make any sense?


To get a better job you need education which cost money


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> To get a better job you need education which cost money


That's why student loans exist.


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> To get a better job you need education which cost money


And that’s bad how???


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> And that’s bad how???


What the fuck?


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> What the fuck?


While the price is very high, again, labor isn't free.


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> What the fuck?


Paying for an education that betters you and allows you to have a career instead of being stuck at the local burger joint or gas station/convenience store. How is that bad, because you paid for it??


----------



## CMDreamer (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> So just because a few of us wave a flag that once had some sort of tie to slavery, we're _all_ racist?



If you wave a flag and don't know what that flag represents is ignorance at best. At worst, it is called ignorant hyprocrisy.

The confederate flag represents a very important and negative part of racism in US history, a part of US history that denies to dissappear and is being exalted by Trumpet and most (if not all) the republican party.

Gohmert's intent on the removal of the democratic party alluding racism is just mere opportunism without fundamentals, and hipocrisy at its best.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> Paying for an education that betters you and allows you to have a career instead of being stuck at the local burger joint or gas station/convenience store. How is that bad, because you paid for it??


Because to have a better education you need money if your stuck in a burger job you don't have the money for a better education to getting a better job


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Shadow#1 said:


> Because to have a better education you need money if your stuck in a burger job you don't have the money for a better education to getting a better job


More likely than not it’s  because you don’t know how to save money nor are you competent enough to apply for a student loan which can easily be paid off once you found your well paying career.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



CMDreamer said:


> If you wave a flag and don't know what that flag represents is ignorance at best. At worst, it is called ignorant hyprocrisy.
> 
> The confederate flag represents a very important and negative part of racism in US history, a part of US history that denies to dissappear and is being exalted by Trumpet and most (if not all) the republican party.
> 
> Gohmert's intent on the removal of the democratic party alluding racism is just mere opportunism without fundamentals, and hipocrisy at its best.


How did I not see this before  this is the most comedic thing I’ve read all day. The only thing ik is exalted is how the amount of times you let liberal media brain wash you.  The fact that everyone wants to call Trump racist and being the root of the problems of our country that have been around long before him  is quite fascinating it almost like there aren’t pictures of him and black celebrities or black trump supporters


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

CMDreamer said:


> If you wave a flag and don't know what that flag represents is ignorance at best. At worst, it is called ignorant hyprocrisy.
> 
> The confederate flag represents a very important and negative part of racism in US history, a part of US history that denies to dissappear and is being exalted by Trumpet and most (if not all) the republican party.
> 
> Gohmert's intent on the removal of the democratic party alluding racism is just mere opportunism without fundamentals, and hipocrisy at its best.


Have you ever heard of the phrase "those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it"?


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Have you ever heard of the phrase "those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it"?


With the way the world’s going and being that the phrase is quite historic they forgot it


----------



## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> What should they be replaced with communism? That be quite Ironic lol many people fled their own countries to legally be here to be rid of communism and its similar parties for this country just to become what they wanted to be rid of


Hmmmm yes I will replace the Democrats and Republicans with my favorite political party "communism".


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Hmmmm yes I will replace the Democrats and Republicans with my favorite political party "communism".


Yeah that’s how it’s spelled and if socialism is your fancy it’s a derivative so either way it’ll be the same.


----------



## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> Yeah that’s how it’s spelled and if socialism is your fancy it’s a derivative so either it’ll be the same.


Socialism isn't a derivative of Communism. In general, Socialist thinkers agree that Socialism is the term used to describe the process of transitioning from a Capitalist society to a Communist one. If anything, Communism would be a derivative of Socialism.

Anyways the point that I was making is that Communism isn't a political party, I'm mocking you over the notion of replacing Democrats and Republicans with Communism.


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Socialism isn't a derivative of Communism. In general, Socialist thinkers agree that Socialism is the term used to describe the process of transitioning from a Capitalist society to a Communist one. If anything, Communism would be a derivative of Socialism.
> 
> Anyways the point that I was making is that Communism isn't a political party.


And my point of using communism was that both parties are part of democracy and I couldn’t tell you any political party’s of democracy other than those too other than single view third party’s so therefore communism or it’s precursor socialism some dems want


----------



## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> And my point of using communism was that both parties are part of democracy


I think the term you're looking for is actually Plutocracy.


----------



## omgcat (Jul 27, 2020)

hey, if they think the democrats are still the same party, they shouldn't be mad at democrats removing their own confederate statues.


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> I think the term you're looking for is actually Plutocracy.


I’m sorry I don’t live in the EU. America’s political platform is Democracy most elected officials and officials of office all have political background except for Trump and dems freaked out and fake republicans lost positions


----------



## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> America’s political platform is Democracy


I think the term you're looking for is actually Plutocracy


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

omgcat said:


> hey, if they think the democrats are still the same party, they shouldn't be mad at democrats removing their own confederate statues.


While a valid point, please remember the saying those you forget history are doomed to repeat it



Seliph said:


> I think the term you're looking for is actually Plutocracy


 The terms invalid we elect our officials (maybe except for you I feel you’re the type who doesn’t vote then complains when elections are over and the elected official  isn’t who you wanted) unless you’re saying the elections are rigged I remember trump saying that expecting Hillary to win but when it ended up Trump getting the win dems wanted to say the same thing and ended not finding any evidence. So why do you say it’s plutocracy?


----------



## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> The terms invalid we elect or officials (maybe except for you I feel you’re the type who doesn’t vote then complains when elections are over and the elected official isn’t who you wanted) unless you’re saying the elections are rigged I remember trump saying that expecting Hillary to win but when it ended up Trump getting the win dems wanted to say the same thing and ended not finding any evidence. So why do you say it’s plutocracy?


Actually this is the first year I get to vote and I am thoroughly depressed with my options, it's the whole reason why I've lost faith in our electoral system.

Copying and pasting these from different sources on the web as to why the US is a plutocracy because I simply don't care enough to write you an essay.

Yes, without a doubt, America is a plutocracy.

When the wealthy and the corporations can buy congressmen and presidents, that is a plutocracy.

When someone is a lobbyist for a corporation one day and a regulator of that same industry the next day, that is a plutocracy.

When the poor and middle class are ignored outright because they can't afford to contribute to election campaigns, that is plutocracy.

Yes, America is a plutocracy. Our Civics books have it wrong.


The media empires are also part of that plutocracy. Voters are mostly influenced by what they hear from the corporate controlled media. Media guides voters to and from candidates based on how they decide to report on them.

In the past, freedom of the press was associated with state control over media. But today the focus needs to be on corporate control over the media. Can such a thing as freedom of the press exist when its under total corporate control?
America is run by lobbyists and political action committees (PACs). They have lots and lots of money, so in that sense, yes, the wealthy control America. Also, we have the issue of electronic voting machines. They are rigged. So, we need to limit lobbyists ability to bribe our politicians, and we need to get rid of electronic voting machines. Only then will we have a chance at our country being a government that is "of the people, by the people, for the people".



https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites...testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf Here's an 18-page study if you want to read it.
Essentially, corporations have their hands in every facet of US "democracy"

They control our media and influence our votes.
They donate vast sums to politicians they want to win and to convince politicians to support their interests (lobbying).
It is virtually impossible to get anywhere in politics without very good connections or a lot of money, or both. Most politicians tend to make 6 figure salaries.
What it boils down to is the fact that most politicians get bought out by corporate lobbyists, which generally leads to corporations having more power in this nation than actual individual politicians.

Look at the recent elections in Kentucky (this type of stuff happens all across the US as well), look at voter-id laws, look at the way felons are unable to vote, look up the Southern Strategy, look up Gerrymandering. These are all tactics that politicians use to circumvent the will of the people (especially marginalized people), we will not live in a true Democracy until shit like what happened in Kentucky doesn't happen, we will not live in a true democracy until we abolish the Plutocracy.

If you ignore everything else I've listed, just check out this video. It's very compelling


----------



## MFDC12 (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> The point I'm trying to get at is that people should be able to keep more of what they earn. However, in a communist society, you earn nothing, and in a tax-funded occupation, you earn the same no matter what, so why work at all?
> 
> ---
> 
> That's not flat.



Work in an anarchist/communist society is going to be different. You aren't going to become a doctor for money, you are becoming one to help people. I'd argue this is going to give better care because the doctors I've had you can obviously tell they don't give a crap about you that they are just doing it for a paycheck (ESPECIALLY psychiatrists in my experience) - the ones who truly care are the ones who went in to help people.

Why do people bother doing doctors without borders? They only get less than 2k a month. The answer is they do it to help people. The dude who invented the polio vaccine didn't do it for financial gain - he didn't patent it for that reason. It was given out free for a good bit too.

In a leftist society is sorta something like this:
a) to live in say, a commune, everyone pitches in to do stuff maybe a few hours a month/week/whatever that is the "dirty work" ie garbage collection
b) menial things will be automated when possible to minimize point a
c) you pursue what YOU want to focus on because of this. If you want to be a doctor, you don't need student loans putting you in debt or holding you back (keep in mind there are several barriers that keep poor (especially POC) from getting into college/succeeding *). I saw you mention student loans are on option in another comment - which is obvious, and it comes with a lot of issues especially if you got suckered into a for-profit university and can't get hired in that field, if you want to continue education with a masters/phd (those aren't cheap yaknow) or change focus because you realize you don't like the degree you had, etc etc etc
d) and even with that most jobs in a society like this will be vastly different anyways, ie a severely reduced week than 40 hours because the access to education/whatever is more available to people are going to have more free time to do what _they_ want to do with their life because there will be more people in their field.

Hopefully this was coherent, it's late and I'm tired lol

* https://theithacan.org/news/low-income-students-face-systemic-barriers-to-college-access/

re: the flat statement, as shadow mentioned a flat tax is only going to hurt low/middle class folks.


----------



## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Actually this is the first year I get to vote and I am thoroughly depressed with my options, it's the whole reason why I've lost faith in our electoral system.
> 
> Copying and pasting these from different sources on the web as to why the US is a plutocracy because I simply don't care enough to write you an essay.
> 
> ...



I only really see one source I could trust that being Princeton. But plutocracy here is actually the swamp the area of our government with corruption also the very thing Trump was trying to get rid of before hit with democratic bs. But nowadays The Swamp is fake republicans and the Democratic Party as a whole


----------



## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> I only really see one source I could trust that being Princeton. But plutocracy here is actually the swamp the area of our government with corruption also the very thing Trump was trying to get rid of before hit with democratic bs. But nowadays The Swamp is fake republicans and the Democratic Party as a whole


Way to ignore absolutely everything I just said to you.

I knew it was a mistake to try and rationalize with someone who has an Elon Musk pfp


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## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Way to ignore absolutely everything I just said to you.
> 
> I knew it was a mistake to try and rationalize with someone who has an Elon Musk pfp


I didn’t ignore it I just didn’t acknowledge it based on the fact that lobbyists influence the government to ultimately listen to the people of America by listening to its state and further researching issues to further inform government officials. https://puglieseassociates.com/lobbying-humble-roots-integral-government-process/
This site holds more value then me reciprocating it. 

And as for your fine print my pfp has nothing do to with you “rationalizing” with me because you aren’t really doing that merely spewing bs “facts” that are easily rebutted.


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## FanofFans (Jul 27, 2020)

morvoran said:


> It's about time somebody goes after the true racist organization that has been ruining America and causing so much destruction of not only democrat ran cities but our society as a whole.
> 
> You can protest that confederate statues need to be removed even though they are inanimate objects doing no harm and argue that police shouldn't kill lifelong criminals that intend to kill them first, but you, definitely, should not ignore the source of all your grief which has always been the power hungry democrat party.
> 
> I salute Rep. Gohmert for taking this brave stand against this oppressive cult.


... uninformed idiot... I cannot even read this bull.


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## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> I didn’t ignore it I just didn’t acknowledge it based on the fact that lobbyists influence the government to ultimately listen to the people of America


That makes no sense, isn't the role of government to listen to the people? Why would corporate lobbyists do that for the government? Literally in the study I linked you it shows how lobbyists work against the American people, you can also find that in the video I sent you both of these things directly contradict your article. You haven't refuted a single thing I've said to you, you've just given me one article of corporate lobbyist propaganda. 



Teslas Fate said:


> you aren’t really doing that merely spewing bs “facts” that are easily rebutted.


You have yet to rebut them.


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## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> That makes no sense, isn't the role of government to listen to the people? Why would corporate lobbyists do that for the government? Literally in the study I linked you it shows how lobbyists work against the American people, you can also find that in the video I sent you both of these things directly contradict your article. You haven't refuted a single thing I've said to you, you've just given me one article of corporate lobbyist propaganda.
> 
> 
> You have yet to rebut them.



Right he doesn’t realize most government officials care about themselves. Call it propaganda but it’s more factual than your so called factual video and research from a school ran by liberals (true propaganda btw). If they work against Americans then how come most of what they do positively helps us? (Oh right it’s not seen that way to you)


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## jimbo13 (Jul 27, 2020)

You can say nothing about the confederate flag that can't be said about democrats, and the fact is every single last one of these cities that have had wide spread police abuse and systemic ethnic poverty have been ran by democrats for the last 50+ years.


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## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> Right he doesn’t realize most government officials care about themselves. Call it propaganda but it’s more factual than your so called factual video and research from a school ran by liberals (true propaganda btw). If they work against Americans then how come most of what they do positively helps us? (Oh right it’s not seen that way to you)


God you're hopeless


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## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> God you're hopeless


You hear that god he says your hopeless does that mean you’re sending him to hell?


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## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> You hear that god he says your hopeless does that mean you’re sending him to hell?


you're*


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## jimbo13 (Jul 27, 2020)

Joe Biden worried in 1977 that certain de-segregation policies would cause his children to grow up 'in a racial jungle'

https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-said-desegregation-would-create-a-racial-jungle-2019-7


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## Teslas Fate (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> you're*


Oh, now he’s a grammar police too? Man all I have to say to you is stop liberal media and any media for that matter use your own eyes and when researching research the source for political standing before deeming it a good source. 



jimbo13 said:


> Joe Biden worried in 1977 that certain de-segregation policies would cause his children to grow up 'in a racial jungle'
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-said-desegregation-would-create-a-racial-jungle-2019-7


Don’t forget poor children are just as bright as white children, also side note I’m confused @Seliph why’d you like this I thought you liked liberals?


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## jimbo13 (Jul 27, 2020)

Or super predators, or the Biden crime bill that through non violent black drug offenders in prison for life, or that he was VP during do nothing Obama's inaction when trayvon, garner and brown all happened.  No reforms, no defund the police yadda, yadda, yadda.  

I just want to see where this Republican a black community elected that is oppressing them,

If the black community is determined to blame Republicans they should really try electing one sometime, because the simple fact is the GOP is not governing any of these cities with these systemic issues and haven't in decades.


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## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

Teslas Fate said:


> Oh, now he’s a grammar police too? Man all I have to say to you is stop liberal media and any media for that matter use your own eyes and when researching research the source for political standing before deeming it a good source.
> 
> 
> Don’t forget poor children are just as bright as white children, also side note I’m confused @Seliph why’d you like this I thought you liked liberals?


I'm not a liberal nor do I like liberals, I'm unsure of where you even got that notion.

The video I sent you is literally a critique of Liberal Democracy (which is the system we're living under).

What you fail to understand is that both Democrats and Republicans are technically liberal parties. The only difference is that Democrats tend to have a more left-leaning social policy (usually Keynesian economics) while Republicans tend to have a more right-leaning social policy (think free-market Capitalism) though ever since the Reagan administration, both parties have generally pursued a similar goal of Neoliberalism (which is currently the dominant ideology of both parties). Republicans are conservative liberals and Democrats are "progressive" liberals.

Here's the definition of liberalism for ya: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

I think the Democratic party sucks, I think the Republican party sucks, and I think liberals are foolish.

I politically identify as a Libertarian Socialist or Anarcho-Socialist.

Here's the definition of Libertarian Socialist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

This has nothing to do with Liberalism.

You've got a lot to learn if you think anything I've said supports liberalism.

Both of these videos that you won't check out provide you with a pretty good critique of democracy in the US if you want to check them out:


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## jimbo13 (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> I politically identify as a Libertarian Socialist or Anarcho-Socialist.
> 
> Here's the definition of Libertarian Socialist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism



Lulz I love how you cite a wiki listed as "Part of a series on Marxism " like that makes you seem more reasonable, you really should read the Wiki you posted as it is littered with War criminals and people responsible for countless atrocities.  The vast majority of contemporary examples of U.S based organizations all folded because their members had bombed and killed people.


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## Seliph (Jul 27, 2020)

jimbo13 said:


> Lulz I love how you cite a wiki listed as "Part of a series on Marxism " like that makes you seem more reasonable, you really should read the Wiki you posted as it is littered with War criminals and people responsible for countless atrocities.  The vast majority of contemporary examples of U.S based organizations all folded because their members had bombed and killed people.


Did you even read the page or did you stop as soon as you saw the word Marxism? Libertarian Socialism is inherently opposed to any form of hierarchy, and that includes state (government) control. I don't see how you can link war criminals to Libertarian Socialism when the pure nature of the ideology makes it so that war criminals fundamentally cannot exist under Libertarian Socialism.


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## MFDC12 (Jul 27, 2020)

jimbo13 said:


> Lulz I love how you cite a wiki listed as "Part of a series on Marxism " like that makes you seem more reasonable, you really should read the Wiki you posted as it is littered with War criminals and people responsible for countless atrocities.  The vast majority of contemporary examples of U.S based organizations all folded because their members had bombed and killed people.



I think it's worth noting that it doesn't say 'Part of a series on Marxism' - namely because ancom/libsoc/whatever you want to use isn't Marxist. It's based on Marx's critiques of capitalism from Kapital (it should be noted that anarchism has roots way before capitalism/Marx with groups like The Diggers in the 1600s) but Marxism is a very specific ideology especially in regards to people like Lenin/Stalin/Mao (ML/MLM being the acronyms for those ideologies) used - whom anarchists are very very very highly critical of their contributions to Marx's theory and their actions and stuff in their respective countries in general - https://old.reddit.com/r/Anarchy101/comments/hv92wg/is_anarchism_antimarxist/fyrypy7/ is a pretty good explanation.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Libertarian Socialism is inherently opposed to any form of hierarchy, and that includes state (government) control.


This only works in small tribes. Are you for the disintegration of countries?

[not related to you]
With regards to "Nationalsozialist/-en" (-ismus is not a person) I have to point out that it is not just a name. They exhibited social behavior, though it was limited to their definition of the in-group. It does not automatically lead to cruelty (neither do socialism or other political forms). It is in fact a common feature of e.g. many monotheistic religions... heck, even having a border could be regarded as a form of national socialism if it is paid for by the government. To reduce Nazi Germany to a general political idea does not do history (nor the victims) justice.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 27, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Did you even read the page or did you stop as soon as you saw the word Marxism? Libertarian Socialism is inherently opposed to any form of hierarchy, and that includes state (government) control. I don't see how you can link war criminals to Libertarian Socialism when the pure nature of the ideology makes it so that war criminals fundamentally cannot exist under Libertarian Socialism.


There's this movie called The Purge.


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## MFDC12 (Jul 27, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> This only works in small tribes. Are you for the desintegration of countries?



Major cities (much like jobs) like we know it now probably won't exist in ancom/libsoc society because of this. There are some proposals on how it would work, it's honestly a matter of what works for that area/commune-dependent (resource-wise, logistics, etc) - some people propose something (let's just use NYC as an example) by splitting that into wards - In the NYC exapmple most likely the specific neighborhoods in each borough, and those wards make the commune.

As for the other question - I'm anarcho-communist (it's adjacent to libsoc/basically falls under the same umbrella as an extension on the ideology) and in communism there are no borders, so no countries - I'm fairly certain that it's the same as libsoc (which Seliph is).


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## Seliph (Jul 28, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> This only works in small tribes. Are you for the desintegration of countries?



Yeah, @MFDC12 said it pretty much exactly how I'd put it.

I believe in no nations, no borders.

 I don't call myself Anarcho-Communist simply because I think Libertarian-Socialist is easier for people to understand and it reappropriates the term Libertarian from American Right-Libertarians aka AnCaps (nasty people). They don't deserve it.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jul 28, 2020)

If you do not believe in borders, the same will happen as in CHOP/CHAZ. Non-productive members will flood your community and you will all end up in poverty.
There is no way you can achieve a borderless world. As long as there is one nation with borders, you will be at the receiving end (literally). I.e. you will receive their worst (because you cannot stop migration) of that nation but not vice versa.
Borders are a natural extension of the family structure. Do you also propse a sort of matriarchy?


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## Seliph (Jul 28, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> If you do not believe in borders, the same will happen as in CHOP/CHAZ. Non-productive members will flood your community and you will all end up in poverty.


Well, first of all, the CHOP did have borders.
Second of all, the CHOP didn't dissolve due to "non-productive" members flooding the community.

A lot of misinformation goes around about the CHOP, this video clears things up pretty well.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> There is no way you can achieve a borderless world. As long as there is one nation with borders, you will be at the receiving end (literally). I.e. you will receive their worst (because you cannot stop migration) of that nation but not vice versa.
> Borders are a natural extension of the family structure. Do you also propse a sort of matriarchy?


Native Americans, Aboriginals, Inuit People, and many other indigenous peoples all lived in societies without nations or borders, I don't see why it's impossible to achieve a borderless world when in reality we've been living in a borderless world for most of human history.

Not sure where you got the notion that borders are a natural extension of the family structure either, I don't see any connection. Borders are just arbitrary boundaries used to outline the land that a nation has control over. This has nothing to do with family structure.

Lastly, of course, I don't propose a sort of matriarchy. I'm against any form of unjust/unnecessary hierarchy, and that includes matriarchy. This is a basic tenant of Libertarian Socialism.


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## KingVamp (Jul 28, 2020)

See, this is why you can't lump up the "left" together. All I want to see is us moving towards the Nordic model.


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## CallmeBerto (Jul 28, 2020)

KingVamp said:


> See, this is why you can't lump up the "left" together. All I want to see is us moving towards the Nordic model.




You really can't lump the right together either. It's sad because we have this your either with us or against us mentality. Life isn't that simple.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 28, 2020)

CallmeBerto said:


> You really can't lump the right together either. It's sad because we have this your either with us or against us mentality. Life isn't that simple.


That's because we don't have conflicting goals.


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## PizzaBitez (Jul 28, 2020)

Hm. Interesting enough!


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## SG854 (Jul 28, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Well, first of all, the CHOP did have borders.
> Second of all, the CHOP didn't dissolve due to "non-productive" members flooding the community.
> 
> A lot of misinformation goes around about the CHOP, this video clears things up pretty well.
> ...



I hate borders and arbitrary lines & boundaries. Sometimes I just want to go in my neighbors house crossing their property and lie on their couch without them calling the cops on me. They have a really nice comfy couch. I want a boarderless world.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 28, 2020)

Here's my thoughts on a borderless world without any form of government.

You want it? Fine. Go on ahead and watch as the world burns with rampant domestic terrorism until a few brave souls stand up for themselves and within a few hundred years establish a Feudal economy. That's your beautiful Utopia, it's basically a BLM protest stretched too far.


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## CallmeBerto (Jul 28, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Here's my thoughts on a borderless world without any form of government.
> 
> You want it? Fine. Go on ahead and watch as the world burns with rampant domestic terrorism until a few brave souls stand up for themselves and within a few hundred years establish a Feudal economy. That's your beautiful Utopia, it's basically a BLM protest stretched too far.




A borderless world could work just fine the problem is two fold that I can see. 

1.) conflicting cultures; basically if you live in a community that doesn't share the same values as you that can cause issues. You will need different smaller communities that believe in god; any old really or freedom or whatever. Culture/shared values is the key.

2.) Get rid of the welfare state; that is the biggest problem, you have many people that come to first world countries just for free shit. This would be fine IF the took the money and worked on bettering themselves; however multi generational welfare dependency is a serious issue. The USA for example has spent fuck loads of cash and the problem hasn't gotten better. A better option is having communities work together and pull their money together and help those they want. Some kind of contract where person X will pay back the community in 5 years or something like that.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Oh and some government will always be needed. Whoever controls the military, police and the courts system is the government. You might as well create one and get that out the way ASAP.


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## Xzi (Jul 29, 2020)

CallmeBerto said:


> Get rid of the welfare state; that is the biggest problem, you have many people that come to first world countries just for free shit. This would be fine IF the took the money and worked on bettering themselves; however multi generational welfare dependency is a serious issue. The USA for example has spent fuck loads of cash and the problem hasn't gotten better.


It's not that people aren't attempting to better themselves, it's that this is very much a feature of American capitalism, not a bug.  Minimum wage is less than half of what it should be in 2020 when accounting for inflation and increased productivity, and corporations continuously lobby to keep it that way, passing the rest of the burden onto the government.  A recent study found that minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any state.  Minimum wage would have to be increased to $15/hour in most states and $20/hour in certain others in order to remedy the excess burden on welfare and taxpayers.

And then of course there's also privatized prisons and the 13th amendment continuing the never-ending cycle of slave labor, poverty, and recidivism.  The result of all this being that wealth inequality in the US is currently worse than it was in France circa 1790.  You probably already know what major event happened during that time period, so I won't bore you with a history lesson.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 29, 2020)

Xzi said:


> It's not that people aren't attempting to better themselves, it's that this is very much a feature of American capitalism, not a bug.  Minimum wage is less than half of what it should be in 2020 when accounting for inflation and increased productivity, and corporations continuously lobby to keep it that way, passing the rest of the burden onto the government.  A recent study found that minimum wage workers cannot afford rent in any state.  Minimum wage would have to be increased to $15/hour in most states and $20/hour in certain others in order to remedy the excess burden on welfare and taxpayers.
> 
> And then of course there's also privatized prisons and the 13th amendment continuing the never-ending cycle of slave labor, poverty, and recidivism.  The result of all this being that wealth inequality in the US is currently worse than it was in France circa 1790.  You probably already know what major event happened during that time period, so I won't bore you with a history lesson.


The correct minimum wage is $0.


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## Seliph (Jul 29, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> The correct minimum wage is $0.


Bruh you read everything that Xzi wrote and that's all you can come up with? Disappointing.


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## CallmeBerto (Jul 29, 2020)

@Xzi 

I don't agree increasing the Minimum wage would be a good thing; in fact economics seems to point that increasing the wage would hurt those that you are trying to help. The only one who should decide the vaule of your labor is the market. Labors are priced according to their skilled, the more value your skills can bring to the table, the higher they are paid. Doctors and engineers are paid above and beyond the minimum wage and there is no single law that tells their employers how much to pay them. If company X underpays, its workers would just leave that place and work for other company that would pay them what they are worth. If you force a company yo pay someone more then they are worth then hours, benefits etc will be cut.

Homes cost a ton due to over government regulations and people placing too much value on them.

I agree 100% on your point on privatized prisons; that is insane to me.


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## MFDC12 (Jul 29, 2020)

SG854 said:


> I hate borders and arbitrary lines & boundaries. Sometimes I just want to go in my neighbors house crossing their property and lie on their couch without them calling the cops on me. They have a really nice comfy couch. I want a boarderless world.



There is still personal property (the is a huge difference between private and personal property) and the people in that house have every right to protect it themselves. If someone tried to seize/break into someone else's property you need to be aware that there will be consequences, whatever form that might be (for example, if an individual tries to take my land by force, leftists believe everyone should be armed and they have an entire commune on their side who are there too...).



UltraSUPRA said:


> Here's my thoughts on a borderless world without any form of government.
> 
> You want it? Fine. Go on ahead and watch as the world burns with rampant domestic terrorism until a few brave souls stand up for themselves and within a few hundred years establish a Feudal economy. That's your beautiful Utopia, it's basically a BLM protest stretched too far.



Why would a horizontal, moneyless/stateless/classless society develop any form of economy, let alone a feudal economy? Care to elaborate what sort of domestic terrorism might occur, and why? You paint a very vague, inaccurate form of what anarchy actually is.


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## Seliph (Jul 29, 2020)

Love that this thread started out as one video of a guy saying stupid things and has gradually turned into a full-on discourse (more or less) on what Anarchism means. Kropotkin is smiling.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 29, 2020)

MFDC12 said:


> Why would a horizontal, moneyless/stateless/classless society develop any form of economy, let alone a feudal economy? Care to elaborate what sort of domestic terrorism might occur, and why? You paint a very vague, inaccurate form of what anarchy actually is.


As long as there are two people left on the planet, someone is gonna want someone dead.
As for the economy, would you mind reading about the development of civilization?


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## CallmeBerto (Jul 29, 2020)

@UltraSUPRA @MFDC12 

You don't even need to go as far as killing. (though that is a good point)

I'll give you an example why so kind of currency has to exist.

Let's say I grow Apples and Ultra grows peaches. Well how many apples should I give for his peaches. Now say that MFD has oranges. How many apples for oranges, how many peaches for oranges etc. It's already confusing with just the 3 of us. Now add 100's of other goods and services; how will anything ever  get done if we spend all day trading? A common currency (normally precious metals) tends to fill this role.

Classless society will never be a thing because people are NOT equal. Some people are smarter, harder workers, born lucky etc. These people will raise to the top on the social ladder as they contribute more to society as a whole. Even in a small tribe there is always a village chief that everyone listens to.


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## Xzi (Jul 29, 2020)

CallmeBerto said:


> I don't agree increasing the Minimum wage would be a good thing; in fact economics seems to point that increasing the wage would hurt those that you are trying to help. The only one who should decide the vaule of your labor is the market. Labors are priced according to their skilled, the more value your skills can bring to the table, the higher they are paid.


Over 70% of available jobs in the US are in the service industry, so there's a notable lack of opportunity in addition to the lack of respect and appreciation for those who work in essential positions.  To continue functioning as a country we need firefighters, garbage men, and grocery store clerks.  We don't need health insurance middlemen, day traders, and social media influencers.  I'll give you one guess as to which group makes exponentially more money.

Basically, it's a matter of priorities and what we as a society choose to value most.  Corona has put even more of a spotlight on the fact that America's priorities are ass-backwards compared to other first-world nations.


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## MFDC12 (Jul 29, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> As long as there are two people left on the planet, someone is gonna want someone dead.
> As for the economy, would you mind reading about the development of civilization?



I think you dodged the question(s), though. You are correct, there will always be conflict, but keep in mind there are still rules you need to abide by in a commune ('contracts' as some people call them) you can't just do _anything_ with no consequence, anarchy isn't the absence of rules - it's something enforced by everyone in the community you live.

The question still remains, WHY and HOW would it develop to feudalism? There would be so many layers to prevent something from it from re-occurring (ideally any, for instance factory, will be a co-op/unionized/whatever). There is a reason a slogan to anarchism is 'no gods, no masters' and I'd bet you all of my personal possessions if feudalism were to somehow arise, communes and individuals are not going to go down without a fight because you would have to convince a huge majority of people that serving some lord to have their needs met is not going to fly. The why is also an important question - why would this occur in a post-scarcity (which we are already at) society where everyones needs are met allow it to happen?

Since you told me to read about 'the development of civilization', I think you might benefit from reading theory too ('Anarchism and Other Essays' by Emma Goldman, Conquest of Bread and Mutual Aid by Peter Kropotkin)/other stuff (Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloos is a good one) if you haven't to gain a better understanding/perspective than some random dude you are talking to on some random gaming forum.

This is from ancom/syndicalist point of view though - anprims specifically I think would have a harder time with this.


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## CallmeBerto (Jul 29, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Over 70% of available jobs in the US are in the service industry, so there's a notable lack of opportunity in addition to the lack of respect and appreciation for those who work in essential positions.  To continue functioning as a country we need firefighters, garbage men, and grocery store clerks.  We don't need health insurance middlemen, day traders, and social media influencers.  I'll give you one guess as to which group makes exponentially more money.
> 
> Basically, it's a matter of priorities and what we as a society choose to value most.  Corona has put even more of a spotlight on the fact that America's priorities are ass-backwards compared to other first-world nations.



I can agree with the lack of lack of respect and appreciation for those who work in essential positions. If you are speaking about covid yeah that was a meme from the beginning in order to get people to buy into the idea of a lock-down. 

Store clerks are going away from what I can tell. Have you been to a walmart and seen how many self-check outs there are? No idea if robots will take over firefighters, garbage men, I'd say yes given enough time.

Blame government over-regulations for health insurance middlemen being a thing. I think we can both agree the entire health system in the USA needs to be fixed (though I'm sure we have different ideas on what "fix" means)

As for jobs like day traders, and social media influencers. Ech; the market has decided the value of these workers. People are willing to pay this much sooooooo ech?

Not sure what you mean by your last part though. Ass-backwards?


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## Xzi (Jul 29, 2020)

CallmeBerto said:


> Not sure what you mean by your last part though. Ass-backwards?


Let me put it this way: we don't pay minimum wage for the positions that _actually require_ minimal effort.  Minimum wage jobs in the US are among the most demanding, and I can personally attest to that from having worked a few of those positions when I was younger.  Unfortunately, as I said before, opportunities outside the service industry have continued to decline, so there's been a notable increase in the number of middle-aged and elderly workers settling for minimum wage jobs like McDonald's.  _Everybody_ should be pissed that they don't pay a living wage to their employees, because _everybody_ ends up footing the welfare bill via their taxes.  You can't very well blame the workers for decisions made on the executive level.

Contrast that with Scandinavian countries which ensure living wages for all their workers AND have a strong social safety net to boot.  They have practically no homelessness, and their workers are both happier and healthier than ours on average.


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## Lacius (Jul 29, 2020)

> Rep. Louie Gohmert, a Texas Republican, has tested positive for coronavirus, a person familiar with the situation told CNN on Wednesday.
> 
> Gohmert has frequently refused to wear a mask while at the Capitol amid the pandemic. He has spent ample time on the House floor during votes speaking to aides and lawmakers — without a mask or social distancing. His office did not respond to multiple requests for comment.


https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics/louie-gohmert-tests-positive-coronavirus/index.html


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## notimp (Jul 29, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> The correct minimum wage is $0.


You should have seen the discussion in Germany where it was recently raised - all industry and private business advocates raised hell for weeks how much worse it would be and how many jobs would be lost, and then it came to be and - nothing, no impact on job creation, no structural bankruptcies, simply a little reallocation from the rich to the poor. Small and medium enterprises had more business, everyone was happy.

Odd how that stuff works..


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## JaapDaniels (Jul 29, 2020)

every company want minimal weight on payrolls, so they'll keep claiming each time that increasing minimum wage would mean so many lost jobs etc, but truth is, if normal people can't afford living a normal life it kills sales later on for these companies. minimum wage shouldn't be more than enough to live a basic life, it should really mean minimum, but it should also be a standard that everyone can have. this will increase value for the enviroment people lifie in, so it increases the market for living space.
each person should have the right to get enough hours of work (i'd say 40 hours a week on minimum wage) to actually have a life.
that doesn't mean tv, stereo and ps5 have to be in range though.
just a save roof to live under, food (not just burgers and fries) and water should do.


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