# Emulation forever.... origional hardware Never



## superspudz2000 (Mar 2, 2016)

i recently tried to get back into retro gaming, but it seems now like everything is just devolved into a horrible quagmire. and the realization that all the original hardware sucked. too difficult to find original components, every game is super rare apparently, and greedy ebayers are charging up the ass. 

Like Earthbound?, worth $10 according to Nintendo, $200 on ePay-through-the-nose.
Misadventures of Tron Bonne is worth $5.99, a mere $220 for polycarbonate plastic.
Megaman X2, a decent $7.99, on ebay $130. 

even accessories aren't immune to this insanity, Gamecube Video Cable going for $200-$300? (uuuh, doesn't Wii run GC?), Hori Mini Pad $130, Gameboy Player Controller $200!. PsOne Mouse $50. Ridiculous!. what kind of mental deficient is paying these prices?

_start with NES, ok, you get a used console, maybe you have an old cartridge lying around, pop it in and.... Green Flash... _Green Flash... Green Flash.... Brilliant!. you need a new 42 pin connector, and soldering equipment, and time. But remember you also need to De-Yellow the console because the chemicals are breaking down the plastic!, better run around to beauty salons looking for Hydrogen Peroxide solution and UV lights to De-Yellow it. Hopefully the neighbors wont think you turned your garage into a meth lab. 

Well what about the Top Loader NES, NOPE!. "_The RCA composite were removed from the system; an RF connection is the only way to connect the system to a television_" WOW. forget about having the luxury of S-Video on any NES console, even the crappy 240p composite was removed.

ok but what about 3rd party clones?, every manufacturer used crappy Composite video. you have one option, the Retron 5.... But theres a huge BUT..... its an ANDRIOD system running Retroarch emulator!, and you can download Retroarch for FREE!, on any Android device you want. the only real practical benefit would be for Mega-Collectors with massive cartridge collections. otherwise you could just download the roms with ZERO difference.

SNES has S-Video... try finding a cable that actually separates the signals in true S-Video, most are "Dual" cables that simply push composite through the s-video port. And even then, try finding a TV that accepts SVideo nowadays. most newer LCD TV's are removing the S-Video port altogether. so are Receivers. look up Sony Receivers on radio shack, not one has s-video. 

and Gameboy, original has horrible picture quality regardless of what mod you do to it. Gameboy Color cannot be backlit. Chinese Clones have wrong aspect ratio. GBA is junk, AGS-001 is junk, and GBA SP AGS-101 is ridiculously overpriced and useless for backwards compatibility because GB plays in a tiny little window, with ugly GBC palettes. 

Gameboy Player?, Super Gameboy?. the SGB is not compatible with GB Color cartridges. and doesn't really do much for 99% of GB games besides slap on a border and choose a 2-color GBC palette for you. GBPlayer on Gamecube, still uses GBC hardware so its Left+A, Right+B stupid codes at startup, and none look any good anyway.

and anyway you can never really own every game physically. Translations. Hacks. Remakes. and Prototypes. _but flashcarts.._. aren't perfect. arent future proof (equipment breaks down) and don't run 100% of games, so forget Starfox 2, or Banjo Kazui, or Kirby Tilt n Tumble, or Pokemon Ruby. You WILL be using an emulator eventually for those hard to run games, so why even bother at all. 

at this point, when is not using an emulator have any benefit over simply and easily using emulation and saving the massive headaches.


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## TecXero (Mar 2, 2016)

I generally use emulation, as long as I can get it running better than the original console. Something like my Dreamcast and Xbox I still use, while my SNES and Genesis I just emulate. I haven't touched my NGC since Nintendont became the great piece of software it is for the Wii.


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## cvskid (Mar 2, 2016)

At the bare minimum just get the original hardware with a flashcart for each of them. Won't have to worry about spending $200 for earthbound or $800 for flinstones suprise at dinosuar peak or $100 for conkers bad fur day and etc.

For games that have issues running on flash carts try getting the japanese versions as they tend to be cheaper a lot of the time. For the nes colors problem disable the 10nes chip and install a new 72 pin connector or try to revive the old one. Gameboy color and the original advance can have frontlit mods done on them. There are solutions to a lot of the problems that you are having, not all though.


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## sj33 (Mar 2, 2016)

It's not an either-or thing in fairness, but in these days of emulators becoming increasingly accurate (more accurate that revisions of the real hardware in some cases, see Higan/bsnes), the idea that playing on real original hardware just 'feels' better is becoming a placebo.

I cringe when people insist that emulators just 'don't feel right', then run out and buy games on the Virtual Console (itself just a moderately accurate emulator).


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## superspudz2000 (Mar 2, 2016)

cvskid said:


> At the bare minimum just get the original hardware with a flashcart for each of them. Won't have to worry about spending $200 for earthbound or $800 for flinstones suprise at dinosuar peak or $100 for conkers bad fur day and etc.
> 
> For games that have issues running on flash carts try getting the japanese versions as they tend to be cheaper a lot of the time. For the nes colors problem disable the 10nes chip and install a new 72 pin connector or try to revive the old one.



well take the GB everdrive, it re-writes the EEPROM everytime you change a game. and the rom chip is rated at something like 10,000 rewrites in its lifespan. its not future-proof in the least. Drag n Derp is future proof, but can only store 1 rom file.

the gameboy limitations are probably the worst example, but all equipment eventually breaks down.

wholeheartedly agree on the Japanese versions though. 50% cheaper sometimes.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



sj33 said:


> I cringe when people insist that emulators just 'don't feel right', then run out and buy games on the Virtual Console (itself just a moderately accurate emulator).



THIS!. this new fad of "retro gamer" needing perfect authenticity is the reason Programmers give up on emulation projects halfway through because there is no support for it. At least donate to kickstarters instead of buying overpriced plastic.


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## sj33 (Mar 2, 2016)

I understand why people might buy actual copies of games because they do want to own it, or play games on the original hardwarew based on some feeling of nostalgia.

What I don't understand is when people try to claim that emulators 'don't feel right' without being able to explain why. Emulators these days are so accurate that there's no rational basis for claiming there's a difference beyond placebo.

As for Virtual Console games, it'd hard to justify purchasing these when the money just gets pocketed by the publisher - the original developers don't see a penny. People must understand this - the original developers don't get money from Virtual Console games! Nor do they get any money from the retro game you bought on eBay.


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## Taleweaver (Mar 2, 2016)

sj33 said:


> I cringe when people insist that emulators just 'don't feel right', then run out and buy games on the Virtual Console (itself just a moderately accurate emulator).


...and if they're not doing that, they'r busy connecting their original coleco vision to their huge ass plasma-4k-HD homecinema with 5.1 dolby high definition surround sound. 


EDIT: as for the topic: I sold my SNES with about 18 games a month ago. It still worked, but the connector really had to be put in a weird angle to work. If the new owner has a cat, I take it the new owner has already attempt to strangle it because some hardcore run suddenly got interrupted because the cat's tail touched said connector. Yeah...games were so much better before they had savepoints every five seconds...


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## Dr Eggman (Mar 2, 2016)

As someone who's collected over the years, I've got to say, there are some valid points here.



superspudz2000 said:


> i recently tried to get back into retro gaming, but it seems now like everything is just devolved into a horrible quagmire. and the realization that all the original hardware sucked. too difficult to find original components, every game is super rare apparently, and greedy ebayers are charging up the ass.
> 
> Like Earthbound?, worth $10 according to Nintendo, $200 on ePay-through-the-nose.
> Misadventures of Tron Bonne is worth $5.99, a mere $220 for polycarbonate plastic.
> Megaman X2, a decent $7.99, on ebay $130.



Yes, yes and yes. eBay is garbage for this.



superspudz2000 said:


> even accessories aren't immune to this insanity, Gamecube Video Cable going for $200-$300? (uuuh, doesn't Wii run GC?), Hori Mini Pad $130, Gameboy Player Controller $200!. PsOne Mouse $50. Ridiculous!. what kind of mental deficient is paying these prices?



The "mental deficient" is the recent (? it's actually been years lol) spike in demand. Suddenly, 80s and 90s kids are growing up with money burning in their wallets and alcohol isn't enough to bring back their childhood. Putting the law of supply and demand aside (fixed supply vs exponential increase in demand = price spike) it's also uninformed people who waltz into retro video game stores and pay $150 for an NES or Sega Genesis / CD combo (I paid $30 for each, respectively) that drives prices up. Real collectors have been irritated and hit by this for years. Luckily, I started collecting right before the price spike so while more seasoned people might consider me to have overpaid for some items I own, I've never been ripped off like laypeople get all the time.

Most collectors are hoping that once these new buyers grow up a little more, stop caring about their Mario, sell off their stuff again in a garage sale like they did 15 years ago, that the demand will drop and level off so prices will come back down.



superspudz2000 said:


> _start with NES, ok, you get a used console, maybe you have an old cartridge lying around, pop it in and.... Green Flash... _Green Flash... Green Flash.... Brilliant!. you need a new 42 pin connector, and soldering equipment, and time. But remember you also need to De-Yellow the console because the chemicals are breaking down the plastic!, better run around to beauty salons looking for Hydrogen Peroxide solution and UV lights to De-Yellow it. Hopefully the neighbors wont think you turned your garage into a meth lab.



To be fair there's no soldering  But the point is true - older hardware is breaking down.



superspudz2000 said:


> ok but what about 3rd party clones?, every manufacturer used crappy Composite video. you have one option, the Retron 5.... But theres a huge BUT..... its an ANDRIOD system running Retroarch emulator!, and you can download Retroarch for FREE!, on any Android device you want. the only real practical benefit would be for Mega-Collectors with massive cartridge collections. otherwise you could just download the roms with ZERO difference.



10000% Agreed. This is why most real collectors will NEVER support these things! Especially how squarepusher showed that they were violating GPL with their use of code. These are just for people again, as referenced above, see this thing that plays mario and they want one! Though you, of course, could do the same thing with $20 and the phone that's in your pocket right now. 



superspudz2000 said:


> SNES has S-Video... try finding a cable that actually separates the signals in true S-Video, most are "Dual" cables that simply push composite through the s-video port. And even then, try finding a TV that accepts SVideo nowadays. most newer LCD TV's are removing the S-Video port altogether. so are Receivers. look up Sony Receivers on radio shack, not one has s-video.



While hard to find, I do in fact own one of these cables. It cost me about $10. You just gotta know where to look (hint: all collectors are looking here now - Japan). That being said, these consoles were built for CRT's. They really don't look good on LCD's anyways (unless you spend tons to get one of those XRGB framemeisters or whatever). Also, you're from Canada... where do you live that they still have Radio Shacks?! 



superspudz2000 said:


> at this point, when is not using an emulator have any benefit over simply and easily using emulation and saving the massive headaches.



There's very little benefit for most people. For most consoles, there isn't a benefit. Some consoles have emulators that blow on every platform (ok, only one, N64).
In my case, I enjoy the hobby. I like having original hardware. I like having obscure things. I have my Wii hooked up to my projector via Component (YPbPr) and get awesome video for NES, SNES, GBA & GC gameplay, and anything I play regularly I play on that. And I hate input lag, which some emulators have terribly. 
The consoles aren't for regular use, at least in my opinion, just like you wouldn't drive a classic car to work everyday or drink a fine wine with dinner every night. You take care of them, play with them on occasion, and buy and invest more into them, meet like minded people. It's simply that, a hobby. If someone just wants to play the games, I'd tell them to pick up an Nvidia Shield TV. Does everything and then some.


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## Flame (Mar 6, 2016)

for me its i can buy it now.... so in the future i should have good old console.. e.g. PS3 when PS6 is released.

i dont have a PS1 cause I was too young, and didnt think i should buy that cause one say I will enjoy it.


to recap: build collection now... for the future. fuck the past.


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## sj33 (Mar 6, 2016)

^and how often do you actually set up your old consoles just to play that collection, rather than using more convenient means?


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## Gingerbread Crumb (Mar 6, 2016)

The only consoles I would consider buying are the sega saturn and the sega dreamcast thats it I would not buy a genesis, nes or snes because my 3ds can play them just fine. Also if I ever want to record gameplay I can do it on the pc instead of buying extra stuff.


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## cvskid (Mar 6, 2016)

sj33 said:


> ^and how often do you actually set up your old consoles just to play that collection, rather than using more convenient means?


If you know what to do and what to get then setup is most likely a 1 time deal so you can switch between systems without unhooking anything.


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## The Catboy (Mar 6, 2016)

I actually mostly do emulation or hack my systems to run games off external means (external hard drives or in my PSP's case, disabled the UMD and playing all games from the memory card.) It's mostly because I prefer original hardware since it's obviously going to work better, but I hate easily breakable movable parts. That's basically why I rarely use my PS2 or Dreamcast because I don't have a fast enough means of using external hardware for my games.
I do however emulate systems like SNES, NES, and N64 because they only kind of work on my newer TV. I actually can't just straight up use them on my TV. I have to plug them into my older TV, boot the system up that way, then plug them into my newer TV. I've tried different cords and everything and that's the only method that worked. So emulation is the best way of getting around all of that hassle.


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## portugeek (Mar 6, 2016)

superspudz2000 said:


> ..Like Earthbound?, worth $10 according to Nintendo, $200 on ePay-through-the-nose.
> Misadventures of Tron Bonne is worth $5.99, a mere $220 for polycarbonate plastic.
> Megaman X2, a decent $7.99, on ebay $130. When you buy a physical game you're not just paying for the content.  You're paying for a physical item with a finite supply.
> 
> ...


*1.)*  When you buy a physical game you're not just paying for the content.  The cost (albeit over inflated for a handful of non-rare titles) is higher because you're buying something for which there is a finite supply.

*2.)*  It's actually a 72 pin connector, and there is no soldering, you just simply remove the old one and slide the new one into place.  Time?  10 minutes max, and that includes taking the console apart AND putting it back together.

*3.)*  Almost here!  http://www.hdretrovision.com/snes/

*4.)*  When the consoles you're trying to emulate are 5th generation consoles (Saturn, PS1, N64) and newer.  Emulation of these "newer" consoles isn't yet optimal.  Fortunately, in the case of the PS1, we have modern consoles that still accept those games.  The N64 emulators are far from perfect, and a good amount of games still freeze, or run at horrible frame rates.  Not to mention that the emulators for these consoles can be tedious to setup, and still the games run poorly.

*5.)*  If someone were to load a different game, every single day, for 365.25 days a year.  The 10,000 rewrites would equal just over 27 years and 4 months.  Even if you up it from 1 to 3 different rewrites per day, you're still looking at about a decade's worth of play time.  Sounds pretty good when you're talking about the longevity of tech.  Besides, something better will inevitably come around to replace it.  Think of any tech that you use on a regular basis, that you've kept around for a decade before replacing.

Personally, I prefer emulation because of it's convenience. (Game swapping, save states, etc.)  But when my favorite games don't run properly, it makes me long for the simplicity of physical games on original hardware.  Another thing I don't like about emulation is that unless you want to buy USB versions of all your favorite old-school controllers, you're stuck playing a game with a controller that doesn't feel right.  Playing the songs of an Ocarina, on anything other than the 4 yellow c-button's, feels awkward.  Flash Carts seem to provide the best of both worlds.




sj33 said:


> As for Virtual Console games, it'd hard to justify purchasing these when the money just gets pocketed by the publisher - the original developers don't see a penny. People must understand this - the original developers don't get money from Virtual Console games! Nor do they get any money from the retro game you bought on eBay.


When has this ever NOT been the case?  In most cases, the Publisher owns the rights to the license.  The only times this differs is when a Developer is being backed by a Publisher to help the Developer create their own game. Or when the Developer/Publisher are two entities within the same company. (i.e. Ubisoft)  Developers typically get paid for their work, and when their job is done, they move on, unless they've been contracted to work on sequals.

It's like with Darksiders.  Nordic Games currently owns the property.  When they created the Deathinitive Edition, they didn't pay royalties to employee's who originally worked for Vigil Games.  And why would they?  The property never belonged to Vigil.. it belonged to THQ, who liquidated their assets, and Nordic bought the rights as the highest bidder.  You don't get money for being a former employee.. you get money for being the owner.


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## grossaffe (Mar 6, 2016)

superspudz2000 said:


> even accessories aren't immune to this insanity, Gamecube Video Cable going for $200-$300? (uuuh, doesn't Wii run GC?), Hori Mini Pad $130, Gameboy Player Controller $200!. PsOne Mouse $50. Ridiculous!. what kind of mental deficient is paying these prices?


The gamecube had a digital output for its component video that required a custom ASIC.  The low production run of these cables leads to them being expensive.  And the Wii's component output is poor compared to that of the Gamecube; it hasn't the cleanest of signal and discerning enthusiasts can tell the difference.  There should be clones available, now, as some good people put the effort into cloning the ASIC on FPGAs.



> SNES has S-Video... try finding a cable that actually separates the signals in true S-Video, most are "Dual" cables that simply push composite through the s-video port. And even then, try finding a TV that accepts SVideo nowadays. most newer LCD TV's are removing the S-Video port altogether. so are Receivers. look up Sony Receivers on radio shack, not one has s-video.


I've got an S-Video cable for my SNES (and I guess N64 and Gamecube, too, by extension), and I can definitely tell the difference in 2D games as it cleans up the dot crawl.  The PAL regions have it nice, though, with their SCART connector which produces RGB video output.



> Gameboy Player?, Super Gameboy?. the SGB is not compatible with GB Color cartridges. and doesn't really do much for 99% of GB games besides slap on a border and choose a 2-color GBC palette for you. GBPlayer on Gamecube, still uses GBC hardware so its Left+A, Right+B stupid codes at startup, and none look any good anyway.


Of course the Super GameBoy is not compatible with GBC, the GBC didn't come out until 4 years later.  There are some games that were specifically programmed to work well with the SGB that is nice, and for games that did not explicitly code SGB support, you could make your own palette to suit your own preference.



> and anyway you can never really own every game physically. Translations. Hacks. Remakes. and Prototypes. _but flashcarts.._. aren't perfect. arent future proof (equipment breaks down) and don't run 100% of games, so forget Starfox 2, or Banjo Kazui, or Kirby Tilt n Tumble, or Pokemon Ruby. You WILL be using an emulator eventually for those hard to run games, so why even bother at all.


Starfox 2, at least, you should be able to build a reproduction cart of, if you don't mind sacrificing a copy of, say, Stunt Race FX.



> at this point, when is not using an emulator have any benefit over simply and easily using emulation and saving the massive headaches.


When you enjoy original hardware.  Oh, and you don't want to deal with the headaches associated with emulation.


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## Hungry Friend (Mar 6, 2016)

When I have a working console as well as working controllers available to me I prefer original hardware on a CRT, but emulators like BSNES/higan, 9x, epsxe, Dolphin, the various NES emus and fucking MAME make emulation very convenient and you're right; it's available to EVERYONE. No high prices, haggling, obsessive collector prices or any of that stupid shit but there is something to be said for a 100% authentic experience as well so while I lean towards emulation, I love me some SNES, DC, PS1 and PS2 games on my tube. My NES has been broken for years and is probably still laying around at my parents' house somewhere, so emulation is fucking awesome for allowing me not only to play NES games but also arcade games that are for all intents and purposes lost to history aside from MAME and other arcade emus. MAME, FBA etc have really helped to preserve the history of arcade games as a whole and I have immense respect for those who work on these emulators because it still blows my mind to play actual arcade ROMs on my PC even though I've been doing it since like 1999-2000 with old ass Callus95(great old CPS1 emu) & Neorage.

As a kid I always fantasized about owning a NeoGeo but due to its insane price and the horrible loading of the NGCD, I never got the chance to play those games outside of arcades and many games like the Last Blade games were totally unknown to me despite being masterpieces of both art and gameplay. I was so happy when CPS2 decryption started because I had ALWAYS wanted the Saturn versions of the first 2 Marvel/Capcom tag team VS games but I didn't own a Saturn back in the day and couldn't afford one. Being able to play those high-end CPS2 and even CPS3 games these days is awesome beyond description.

I'll stop now but emulation gives anyone with a working computer many lifetimes worth of amazing classics to play and helps to preserve history. Then there are all the amazing, amazing ROM hacks and fan translations out there. I love emulation!


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## loco365 (Mar 6, 2016)

Yes, eBay prices are garbage, but Nintendo has them for cheap because it's a digital distribution - they don't need to produce chips, cartridge casings, manuals, or boxes, so the cost is inherently cheaper anyways.


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## superspudz2000 (Mar 6, 2016)

portugeek said:


> *1.)*  When you buy a physical game you're not just paying for the content.  The cost (albeit over inflated for a handful of non-rare titles) is higher because you're buying something for which there is a finite supply.
> 
> *2.)*  It's actually a 72 pin connector, and there is no soldering, you just simply remove the old one and slide the new one into place.  Time?  10 minutes max, and that includes taking the console apart AND putting it back together.
> 
> ...




1. agree its just supply and demand, but the thing about eBay is the prices points are almost always horribly inflated, 
"Guy A".. who is not a gamer and has no idea what somethings worth sets a huge buy it now and best offer, because he can afford to wait, and he is only concerned with the "Best Offers".

"Guy B" sees Guy A's auction price as the first result in a search, and assumes thats just what people are paying, Guy B also is not a gamer and doesn't want to miss the next "Cubic Ninja" cash cow, so he just follows the highest completed auctions like hes playing the stock market.

"Guy C" now sees 2 marked up auctions and sets his price $1 less than Guy B, and since he is the lowest price in a search, when he sells it to some desperate moron that result will show in Completed Listings....

and the cycle continues.... auctions just sit there in limbo for years and years at over inflated prices because of "Monkey See, Monkey Do", without actually researching if people are willing to pay that amount or not.

2. yes you're right, my mistake.

3. looking forward to it. 

4. partially agree with that. back in the days of Pentium 4's with only 2.0 Ghz, x86 processors, N64 emulators were a complete nightmare, and compatibility was sketchy, but nowadays a top of the line hardcore gaming PC should be able to remove the limits set by the older tech. and of course Cell Phones wont run N64 1:1 perfectly because they aren't powerful enough, but the fact they run at all on such a tiny device as amazing. 

it depends how much you are willing to invest in a Gaming PC setup. the latest hardware should solve framerate issues, and since N64 system, adapters, memory paks, controllers, etc can easily run you into $300+ dollars, and the games worth playing are $50 -$90 Each.... you will actually save money by buying good PC hardware, rather than going the console route.

and the Controllers aren't really the case anymore, 8Bitdo has NES30 controller that is absolutely phenomenal and has Wireless Bluetooth, and its factory new so its better than an old worn out yellowed NES and Snes controller. Hyperkin and Retrolink makes acceptable snes controllers, i heard "CirKa" controllers has fairly good quality too. Or get a simple controller converter and use any original controller forever. People who say a controller "doesn't feel right" is really just a psychological thing. its the power of suggestion. new controllers have to be "broken in" to loosen them up, after a few intense sessions of street fighter or smash bros, the controller feels more natural.


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## DinohScene (Mar 6, 2016)

This is really something for blogs.

OP, if you cannot afford retro gaming then either don't or download and emulator and call it quits.


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## Touko White (Mar 6, 2016)

I second this, although for some games you have to play on the real hardware, usually when the game doesn't work or is shit in an emulator.
However what with everything you can do in emulators, there's not much reason to have the actual thing as much as people still seem to make out.

I'd also rather have fixed editions of games and be able to play hacks easier, too.


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## Hungry Friend (Mar 6, 2016)

DinohScene said:


> This is really something for blogs.
> 
> OP, if you cannot afford retro gaming then either don't or download and emulator and call it quits.


I don't see an issue with debating this issue as it's often a point of contention and both options have their advantages and disadvantages. Emulation is free, convenient and gives us all access to games that would otherwise be totally unavailable like arcade games, fan translated Japan-only titles etc. Original HW is awesome but collecting and maintaining can be very, very expensive, tedious and time consuming. I'm not a collector but I play old games via real HW and emulation and I assume most people are also in the middle like I am.

For example, if I can get an old game I want for a reasonable price either new or used but if a game is prohibitively expensive and/or rare, emulators are amazing tools to have at your disposal.

edit:



			
				Cammygirl192 said:
			
		

> I'd also rather have fixed editions of games and be able to play hacks easier, too.



Agreed. For example you can play better, less buggy versions of Final Fantasy 3/6 for the SNES via ROM hacks and there are several fan translations and total overhauls as well. Same goes for many games and some of the ROM hacks people create are straight up bad ass and even better than the originals.


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## Daggot (Mar 6, 2016)

I like using the original hardware. I like poking around with the original hardware too.


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## Touko White (Mar 6, 2016)

Hungry Friend has hit it. Emulation preserves games that could otherwise been destroyed years ago - just look at when somebody found that Street Fighter II variant cabinet in Margate when they opened Dreamland again or whatever, which was one of the only remaining copies, it was dumped by the MAME team (I think).

That was thought to have been lost for years until they found it. I wouldn't play it myself but yeah...

Here's what I'm referring to: https://www.canterbury.ac.uk/news-c...ontribute-to-the-restored-dreamland-park.aspx (changed the link)

Didn't see your edit earlier, HF. Completely right


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## FAST6191 (Mar 6, 2016)

superspudz2000 said:


> and don't run 100% of games, so forget ... or Banjo Kazui



Kazooie has been done for years and tooie was cracked a couple of years back
http://gbatemp.net/threads/banjo-tooie-for-n64-finally-cracked.338824/
No remake for the PAL version it seems but hey, personally I would go for the XBLA remakes anyway.

Back on topic I am all about the fun. I care rather less for the experience the devs intended to give than knowing the GPS coordinates of where the banana I just ate was harvested if I can instead have some fun. Emulation has historically afforded me better controls, better graphics, some nice filters, easier hacks, easier cheats, more extensive hacks, more extensive cheats, savestates, far less investment in the process (I have a computer I can control because I need one) and the list goes on.
It might make it harder to compare opinions of games but that matters little for most things I do.


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## Hungry Friend (Mar 6, 2016)

Cammygirl192 said:


> Hungry Friend has hit it. Emulation preserves games that could otherwise been destroyed years ago - just look at when somebody found that Street Fighter II variant cabinet in Margate when they opened Dreamland again or whatever, which was one of the only remaining copies, it was dumped by the MAME team (I think).
> 
> That was thought to have been lost for years until they found it. I wouldn't play it myself but yeah...
> 
> ...


The edit was made several minutes after my original post so it was easy to miss.

Your link also hits the nail on the head as this kinda thing would've been absolutely lost forever without MAME and other emulators, and since games are art just like other types of entertainment media, it's very important to preserve them much like preserving old films and such. As someone who mostly digs older games from the mid 80s-the early 00s, emulation is like a dream come true for me and as fast mentioned, all the additional options emulators themselves give you visually, aurally etc. just make emulation that much cooler.

While console ports of arcade games were often very good for their time back in the 80s and 90s, there's nothing like playing the actual arcade ROMs and the only thing that tops MAME is of course the actual arcade HW and occasionally official ports. Still gets me hyped when the SF2 Hyper Fighting intro plays and I see an "insert coin" prompt on screen, hear all the old CPS1 music and sounds in all their glory and while I'm going a bit OT, it's amazing how well SF2 has aged. High-end CPS1, 2, 3 as well as Neo-Geo and _many_ sprite-based arcade games still look spectacular today. You can tell that much time and care was put into all the sprite/pixel art and some of those late NG games rival fucking CPS3 games in terms of both graphics _and_ sound.(Metal Slug series, Garou: MOTW, Last Blade 2 are good examples)


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## Touko White (Mar 6, 2016)

I particularly love the 90s generation of games because it had three of my favourite systems: the SNES, Mega Drive, and PlayStation.
I never actually owned a Mega Drive but I've played a few games from it and it seems like a very good console, although with a PS3 controller, it's a little different to actually having the proper thing.

Again I agree there's nothing like a real arcade version. (Although I can't seem to play any arcade games, because they never seem to work - always complaining there's missing ROM files or whatever)


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## portugeek (Mar 6, 2016)

superspudz2000 said:


> 1. agree its just supply and demand, but the thing about eBay is the prices points are almost always horribly inflated,
> "Guy A".. who is not a gamer and has no idea what somethings worth sets a huge buy it now and best offer, because he can afford to wait, and he is only concerned with the "Best Offers".
> 
> "Guy B" sees Guy A's auction price as the first result in a search, and assumes thats just what people are paying, Guy B also is not a gamer and doesn't want to miss the next "Cubic Ninja" cash cow, so he just follows the highest completed auctions like hes playing the stock market.
> ...


I completely understand.  I have this discussion with friends all the time.  And it's gotten to the point where I had to ask myself, why do I collect?  What exactly am I searching for?  Because it used to be that I just liked the excitement of the hunt.  The problem with that is that you'll often feel compelled to buy a game you don't really want, SIMPLY because you know it's rare.  I'm not looking to be a completionist.  And I think that the idea of buying retro with the hope that it'll somehow turn into this amazing retirement investment, is a horrible mismanagment of money.  Most of these retro games prices are so inflated that buyers will never see a return on their investment.  A lot of these NES games are NOT rare, and when the popularity of the scene dies off, their prices will return to normal.  As time passes, it'll only be us old guys that care.  And for most us, a simple return to nostalgia (via emulation) will be enough.

With that said, I don't think it's fair to devalue the want or need for physical hardware.  Being upset that retro is expensive is an understandable emotion, and one that I can personally sympathize with, but most of your original post comes off as a list of personal justifications, made by a collector who's slowly become bitter that his hobby is no longer financially accessable.

That's why I posted.  It wasn't so much that I disagreed with your points as much as I was trying to play devils advocate. -- Those who still own all their original hardware (in working condition) can view the cost of buying a top of the line gaming PC, with usb repro's of our favorite classic controllers, as something that's too expensive.  And what if they want to play on their TV from the comfort of their couch?  They now have to move their PC over to their entertainment center.  Not everyone owns a gaming den where everything is in one centralized location.

Personally speaking, I hate gaming on a PC.  When I emulate, I do it via a modded console.  It allows me the luxury of being connected to my TV.  And to the benefit of the Wii, there have been a lot of retro controller adapters developed for it.  Especially if the unit has GameCube compatibility.  Unfortunately the con of emulating via console will always be power, and whether or not people are developing ports of successful emulators.


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## Flame (Mar 6, 2016)

sj33 said:


> ^and how often do you actually set up your old consoles just to play that collection, rather than using more convenient means?



sometimes.

its depends on my feels. I use my phone for emulation mostly tho.


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## superspudz2000 (Mar 10, 2016)

portugeek said:


> I completely understand.  I have this discussion with friends all the time.  And it's gotten to the point where I had to ask myself, why do I collect?  What exactly am I searching for?  Because it used to be that I just liked the excitement of the hunt.  The problem with that is that you'll often feel compelled to buy a game you don't really want, SIMPLY because you know it's rare.  I'm not looking to be a completionist.  And I think that the idea of buying retro with the hope that it'll somehow turn into this amazing retirement investment, is a horrible mismanagment of money.  Most of these retro games prices are so inflated that buyers will never see a return on their investment.  A lot of these NES games are NOT rare, and when the popularity of the scene dies off, their prices will return to normal.  As time passes, it'll only be us old guys that care.  And for most us, a simple return to nostalgia (via emulation) will be enough.
> 
> With that said, I don't think it's fair to devalue the want or need for physical hardware.  Being upset that retro is expensive is an understandable emotion, and one that I can personally sympathize with, but most of your original post comes off as a list of personal justifications, made by a collector who's slowly become bitter that his hobby is no longer financially accessable.
> 
> ...




it must have come across in the wrong way then. the availability of real games is not really a concern. the main point was that there is a huge discrepancy between Perceived Value, and Actual Value. there is no reasonable price-point anymore. 

this is a good example, Zelda: Twilight Princess. 

you look up the Gamecube version, $200 and up, then you look up the Wii remake, $5, $8, they cant even give them away. Now, yes people probably just hate motion controls, but that still doesn't really add up, How did they play Skyward Sword if they hate motion controls so much?, then there is the fact they would be playing GC over a Composite connection, without the polished graphics of the Wii version?, and to make it worse Nintendo already announced a New Wii-U remake, in glorious 1080p HDMI, with an improved control scheme, and exclusive levels.

So... why?. as soon as the TP WiiU announcement was made, sales of TP GC should have plummeted or at least dropped significantly, but they are still listed at $200 in fierce biding wars. this shows its only about the collection, not having the best possible game experience. 

this is indicative of a larger systemic problem, on TV we have the show "hoarders", where we shame and berate people who let their obsessions get out of control, we make fun of "Preppers" who hoard emergency supplies, calling them crazy gun toting conspiracy loons. But "Completionists" go on youtube and are complimented and praised for all their hard work and dedication. is this right or wrong?, who knows, but as a society we should have open honest dialog about it.


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## Thomas83Lin (Mar 10, 2016)

hmm ebay is selling TP GC for about $45 over here in the states. factory sealed for a little over $100.


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## grossaffe (Mar 11, 2016)

superspudz2000 said:


> it must have come across in the wrong way then. the availability of real games is not really a concern. the main point was that there is a huge discrepancy between Perceived Value, and Actual Value. there is no reasonable price-point anymore.


The value of something is the price people are willing to pay for it.  What is this "actual value" you speak of that differs from the perceived value?



> this is a good example, Zelda: Twilight Princess.
> 
> you look up the Gamecube version, $200 and up, then you look up the Wii remake, $5, $8, they cant even give them away. Now, yes people probably just hate motion controls, but that still doesn't really add up, How did they play Skyward Sword if they hate motion controls so much?, then there is the fact they would be playing GC over a Composite connection, without the polished graphics of the Wii version?, and to make it worse Nintendo already announced a New Wii-U remake, in glorious 1080p HDMI, with an improved control scheme, and exclusive levels.
> 
> So... why?. as soon as the TP WiiU announcement was made, sales of TP GC should have plummeted or at least dropped significantly, but they are still listed at $200 in fierce biding wars. this shows its only about the collection, not having the best possible game experience.


$200 and up?  With minimal searching, here it is for $50.  So basically what it cost the day it released: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Legend-of-Z...019913?hash=item1eaccb3ec9:g:Jp0AAOSwh-1W4Pp6

That aside, why does it hold its value?  Yes, the controls are a part of it.  Twilight Princess on the Wii had poorly implemented waggle controls while the Gamecube had the controls that the game was develop with in mind.  It doesn't compare at all to Skyward Sword which was built from the ground up with motion controls in mind and was well executed.  The polished graphics of the Wii version?  I don't know what polished graphics you're talking about.  I guess the Wii supports widescreen.  Composite connection?  Gamecube games can run on the Wii's component cable just fine, and as discussed earlier, the Gamecube has its own component cable which puts out superior picture quality that would interest enthusiasts.
And not to be understated, it, like pretty much everything else in the economic market place, is ruled by the law of supply and demand.  We just spoke a bit about demand, but the other part of the equation is supply.  Many fewer copies of the Gamecube version were released compared to the Wii version.



> this is indicative of a larger systemic problem, on TV we have the show "hoarders", where we shame and berate people who let their obsessions get out of control, we make fun of "Preppers" who hoard emergency supplies, calling them crazy gun toting conspiracy loons. But "Completionists" go on youtube and are complimented and praised for all their hard work and dedication. is this right or wrong?, who knows, but as a society we should have open honest dialog about it.


Honest dialog?  Everyone's got their hobbies.  Some people collect stamps.  Some collect newspapers.  Some collect videogames. /dialog.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 11, 2016)

superspudz2000 said:


> this is indicative of a larger systemic problem, on TV we have the show "hoarders", where we shame and berate people who let their obsessions get out of control, we make fun of "Preppers" who hoard emergency supplies, calling them crazy gun toting conspiracy loons. But "Completionists" go on youtube and are complimented and praised for all their hard work and dedication. is this right or wrong?, who knows, but as a society we should have open honest dialog about it.



On the one hand to each their own, on the other I dare say youtube comments are not a good metric for reasoned discourse, or if you prefer I certainly laugh at those spending the silly money on games they might not play and are likely not of great historical or play value and have found no shortage of people to join me in berating those that would do complete collections, complete achievements, 100% games or do similar such things.


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## superspudz2000 (Mar 11, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> The value of something is the price people are willing to pay for it.  What is this "actual value" you speak of that differs from the perceived value?
> 
> 
> $200 and up?  With minimal searching, here it is for $50.  So basically what it cost the day it released: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Legend-of-Z...019913?hash=item1eaccb3ec9:g:Jp0AAOSwh-1W4Pp6
> ...



ah yes, a lot of that is true. what i mean by actual value is what the thing, all its individual components, is actually worth.
Like when nintendo puts up Earthbound Zero on the eShop they determine the data, the actual lines of code, are worth only $9.99. surly a lot of market research goes into finding the best price-point to maximize profits. Where common SNES games are $7.99, they place an extra $2 due to popularity, rarity, and maybe harder to get the rights.

replacement shell is worth, around $7, take the PCB, some microchips, resisters, etc. maybe $13 max.
so actual value should be maybe $30 max for a SNES cart. or go by the prices of SNES Reproduction carts. to me Repos should be more because the old carts are used and worn out. still nowhere near what some of the rare games are going for.

even supply and demand is not really entirely applicable, there was a petition a few years ago to destroy every Superman 64 cartridge in existence. it still doesn't mean Superman 64 will ever sell for more than $10 regardless of how many exist. And when you think about it, Superman 64 has the exact same ROM Chip, the same 4 resistors and 1 capacitor, as the most sought after games. its not entirely about rarity anymore, (tengen tetris, ET for 2600) its about what people "perceive" the value to be, the rose colored glasses of nostalgia are clouding peoples judgement.


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## portugeek (Mar 11, 2016)

The main problem with your argument is that you're comparing New (still in production) products, with older products, such as collectables, or products that are no longer in production.

The "actual value" of something is whatever the market is willing to pay for it.  That's it.  A product either sells at a certain price or it doesn't.  It's the basic laws of Economics.  Companies may suggest a price based on statistical data and production costs, but if consumers (as a majority) think that the product is too pricey for the value it offers, they won't buy it.  Which effectively drives the cost down.  OR, it inevitably kills off the product because the company can't afford the hit of dropping it down to where it "should" be.  The whole thing eventually leads the market balancing itself out.

This whole "perceived value" vs. "actual value" (in the case of collectables, or out of print products) is a bogus argument.  Only because it's the kind of argument that will go on FOREVER since perception IS unique to every individual.  Especially when talking about second-hand goods.  A thirty dollar, decade old, game may seem like a steal to Joe Gamebuyer, while the person standing next to him thinks it's too expensive.  In this case, the ONLY variable that dictates market value, is the game's previous history of successful transactions.  Meaning, it's not the seller's inflated prices that dictate market value, it's the "actual" price that the game is regularly being purchased at.

Most of these problems arise simply because we're talking about ebay.  Ebay doesn't act like a typical brick and mortar store front.  Ebay offers it's sellers the luxury of having a store front that can be easily accessed by an entire world's worth of consumers.  This means that sellers don't suffer from the same limited pool of consumers that, let's say, a flea market seller would be limited to.  This effectively drives up the cost of games on ebay because the seller knows that the chances of landing a buyer are better.  Even if ebay sellers "wanted" to charge a cheaper price for their item.  Someone would just swoop in, buy it from them at their cheaper listed price, then flip it. (turn around and resell it at an inflated cost)

Lastly, you can't compare games being sold on a digital store front with physical copies of "out of print" games.  Digital games don't suffer from supply shortages.  You can't even compare physical copies of "out of print" games with physical copies of games that are still in production. -- Also, in the case of Virtual Console games, one could make the argument that Nintendo is inflating the prices of these digital games.  I mean, sure $7.99 might sound like a bargain.  But we should consider that most of these games were made 2 or 3 decades ago, and have already seen their returns.  And often times these games remain completely unchanged from their original source rom.  It's almost as if Nintendo were printing money.

But it's okay, right?  Because Nintendo is only charging us $7.99 for our nostalgia.  And we feel better when we spend less than 20 bucks.


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## superspudz2000 (Mar 12, 2016)

portugeek said:


> The main problem with your argument is that you're comparing New (still in production) products, with older products, such as collectables, or products that are no longer in production.
> 
> The "actual value" of something is whatever the market is willing to pay for it.  That's it.  A product either sells at a certain price or it doesn't.  It's the basic laws of Economics.  Companies may suggest a price based on statistical data and production costs, but if consumers (as a majority) think that the product is too pricey for the value it offers, they won't buy it.  Which effectively drives the cost down.  OR, it inevitably kills off the product because the company can't afford the hit of dropping it down to where it "should" be.  The whole thing eventually leads the market balancing itself out.
> 
> ...



when we get into libertarian free market economics and Adam Smiths "invisible hand of the market", its a complex issue that has no clear black and white answers. so rather than turn the thread into a philosophical debate i will agree to disagree. (im leaning more towards Hobbes than Locke in the philosophical spectrum)

but i think it is unethical to overcharge something obscenely more than its worth. it cannot just be about a clear set of predictable mathematical laws when there is human interaction involved. Did you know diamond corporations actually destroy more diamonds then they sell, they destroy half the diamonds they mine in order to artificially inflate the market by intentionally limiting the supply. its not only dishonest to sell someone something thats ultimately worthless, the aggressive marketing that it requires to manipulate someone into buying worthless junk can almost be considered Brainwashing, and the system that keeps people trapped in mindless consumerism borders on debt slavery.

you could say Jim Jones was just a successful kool-aid salesman, but thats just downplaying a serious situation with more far reaching implications than merely "dumb idiots falling for a scam".

There are items on ebay that have been there for the past 3 years straight unsold, its greedy people holding out for a payday, and nobody wins in that situation, the potential buyers lose because there is less stock in circulation because of hoarders, the Buyer losses because he has to store the stuff, and he cannot rely on a stable market pricepoint to tell him what X is worth because of ebay/amazon gouging.

Also, Nintendo is providing a service in the eShop in the way of a storage medium for classic games and stable emulation. its not the actual games, its being able to have all your games on a single device, having off screen play on the Wii-U gamepad, etc.


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## grossaffe (Mar 12, 2016)

You say you want to agree to disagree, but then go on to continue arguing the point.  It is not overcharging; it is the price the market will bare for a luxury item.  What criteria should be used to determine the price which a private individual sells their property?

What is done with diamonds is unrelated as the diamond industry is a DeBeers monopoly where one company controls the entire industry.  People selling used games do not control the supply of the games.


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## portugeek (Mar 12, 2016)

superspudz2000 said:


> There are items on ebay that have been there for the past 3 years straight unsold, its greedy people holding out for a payday


First off, it's their item to do with as they please.  If they want to hold out for a better deal, it's ultimately their choice.  If YOU were the one trying to sell something, you'd do the same.  Especially if you valued the item and were in no hurry to get rid of it. -- And, out of curiosity... what exactly would you like the seller do?  Sell the game to you for cheaper because you "really really want it" and think his price is _unfairly_ listed at an amount that's higher than you're willing to pay?




superspudz2000 said:


> ...and nobody wins in that situation, the potential buyers lose because there is less stock in circulation because of hoarders


That sounds about right.  When demand is high, and supply is low, prices go up.

And, "Hoarders?"  Are you talking about the gamers who rightfully bought these games?  How is it hoarding for them to want to hold onto an item that they've been searching for and finally found?

What would YOU do with these retro games after you bought them?  Are you gonna turn around and give them away, or are you going to "hoard" them?


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## Catastrophic (Mar 12, 2016)

As far as playing the games, I'd take any good condition original hardware over emulation any day. Sure a lot of games are becoming increasingly less affordable but there are flashcarts that let you bypass that problem. I enjoy collecting older games and consoles, and if I ever need money I can just sell the old hardware again. The joys of open marketing.


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## superspudz2000 (Mar 13, 2016)

portugeek said:


> First off, it's their item to do with as they please.  If they want to hold out for a better deal, it's ultimately their choice.  If YOU were the one trying to sell something, you'd do the same.  Especially if you valued the item and were in no hurry to get rid of it. -- And, out of curiosity... what exactly would you like the seller do?  Sell the game to you for cheaper because you "really really want it" and think his price is _unfairly_ listed at an amount that's higher than you're willing to pay?
> 
> That sounds about right.  When demand is high, and supply is low, prices go up.
> 
> ...



im not suggesting gamers shouldn't collect and preserve games, but its not usually gamers selling games at exorbitant prices, its Mass Liquidation Warehouses, its people who bid on abandoned storage units and old stock. or full time ebay sellers who buy bulk lots, then resell each individual item at a markup. These people are not gamers and have no ability to accurately judge the market besides the highest completed auctions.

the only thing i'm suggesting, is post your ebay auction with no reserve, and let the market decide what the item is worth, exactly like you said. That was the entire point of this discussion which seem to be continually ignored, that unrealistic buy it now gougers and Shill bidding are creating an over inflated sense of market value.

waiting for a rube to come along so you can fleece him is extremely dishonest and only hurts the seller in the long run.


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## grossaffe (Mar 13, 2016)

I will agree with no reserve on ebay as a general rule.  There is no purpose of a reserve other than to deceive prospective bidders.  If you don't plan on selling below a certain price, then the bidding should start at that price.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 13, 2016)

I do not think I have ever seen people have qualms with the concept of a reserve before.

From what I have seen it does not use it to the fullest like some auction houses but I would rather guard against random chance (just so happened to be no bidders, too far from payday or a small glut of things I might not have anticipated), have the option to remove/ignore a reserve and generally see the increased bidding that comes with things.


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## Chary (Mar 19, 2016)

I much prefer upscaled emulation of retro games, especially after getting rid of my old clunky CRT. You just can't play old stuff on a HDTV, it's terrible. Doesn't mean I don't love collecting games, though. I end up buying tons of rare games, and they collect dust, all while I play their superior emulated version on my PC.


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## gman666 (May 24, 2016)

Emulators are nice because they give you the power of filters and emulated scanlines.. However, if you're a purist the best thing for you is a good CRT and the original console. Keep in mind that Emulators are not always going to have 100% emulation compatibility. There has been a lot of discussion on "Cycle Accurate" emulation VS more traditional emulation where hacks and mods are used to gain similar effects. Also, the market for retro gaming has skyrocketed in the last few years due to 3rd party resales and vehicles like EBay. Retro games have reached damn near their original value.


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## Boogieboo6 (May 24, 2016)

It's all personal preference and if you plan on going hardcore on something. If you want casual Melee, get a pc and use an emulator. If you're going hardcore, get a CRT TV and an original gamecube and Melee disc. Some people like how the controller feels in their hands. If you want the best of both worlds, get a pc with emulators and a bunch of usb controllers. There's also a bit of video lag in Battletoads if played through an emulator (or a modern TV), making one section of the game near impossible.


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## Ricken (May 24, 2016)

Depends on how good the emulator is

and if the console has emulators


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