# Incredibly Small Game - Amazing Graphics?



## jesterscourt (Jun 13, 2007)

I think I either saw it here or on Digg.  Regardless, there was a program/video game for the PC that was created through some contest that was incredibly small yet supposedly had jaw dropping graphics.  I mean like around a few megabytes if that small, and it supposedly pushed your graphics card to the limit... Does anyone know what I am talking about, or could guide me to it?  Or am I just crazy?


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## cruddybuddy (Jun 13, 2007)

Probably like a 3-D ball with 10 brazillion polygons.


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## Destructobot (Jun 13, 2007)

http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger


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## Maikel Steneker (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Destructobot @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger


Yeah, I think it was that one. Via links you can find other projects that may do the same thing.


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## GexX2 (Jun 13, 2007)

Search google for .kkrieger 

Can't link it since I'm using my Wii. My power supply is teh broke.


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## nintendofreak (Jun 13, 2007)

http://www.theprodukkt.com/

very crazy!!


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## cruddybuddy (Jun 13, 2007)

Don't fall for it people.


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## beethy (Jun 13, 2007)

I'm scratching my head over this...

How can this game be 96kb? 
It's got detailed environments.. high poly count.. textures.. 
physics, different monsters.. guns. sounds. .. 

I dont understand how all that can be under 100kb =(
SO CONFUSED


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## Destructobot (Jun 13, 2007)

the readme said:
			
		

> We do .not. have some kind of magical data compression machine that is able to squeeze
> hundreds of megabytes of mesh/texture and sound data into 96k. We merely store the
> individual steps employed by the artists to produce their textures and meshes, in a very
> compact way. This allows us to get .much. higher data density than is achievable with
> normal data compression techniques, at some expense in artistic freedom and loading times.


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## ugly_rose (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(beethy @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> I'm scratching my head over this...
> 
> How can this game be 96kb?
> It's got detailed environments.. high poly count.. textures..
> ...



So the 96 kB is basically only code.

Your own CPU creates all the graphic content.


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## pandas0nic (Jun 13, 2007)

oh you all have so much to learn 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Procedural code and texture generation etc is not a new thing as such, also take a moment to consider that all the sound in that game is also generated by a 'softsynth' no included wavs or silly mp3s in that tiny exe. There are some very talented people out there, i'm sure we have a few _demosceners_ here on this forum 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  Anyway i should hopefuly meet these guys at Assembly 07


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## cruddybuddy (Jun 13, 2007)

What part of "Don't fall for it people" don't you understand?


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## Veho (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(cruddybuddy @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> What part of "Don't fall for it people" don't you understand?



The "it" part. What is this "_it_" you speak of and that we should not fall for?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	














It!!!!


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## ZAFDeltaForce (Jun 13, 2007)

A graphic-heavy game complete with the works and is under 100 KB? Hmm... This sounds fishy.


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## pandas0nic (Jun 13, 2007)

wow, the ignorance is astounding, these days most people seem to think anything good has to be 1GB+++ bloatware to be of any worth...

get a clue, i'm not even gonna lay down the history of size restricted coding, just to say thats its been done in competition now for many many years...

check this *~177k* demo out from the same people, it needs a pretty powerful pc, but you can see an amazing audio visual experience with great direction can be had if you have a good enough team of coders etc...

binaries: http://www.trackmania.org/fr-041_debris.zip

youtube:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Eg3dBnsHk

remember, ONLY 177k !!!! and this is in REALTIME, NO pre-rendering...

I Quote from another forum:

_"One mind blowing audio visual scene demo, has to be seen to be believed,
and done in a mere one hundred and eighty kilo bytes using mathmatical generated procedural textures.
This shows how lacking a lot of PC games are in physics and game engines, and also where the next game physics engines will come from.
Depending on how powerful your graphics card is, 1024*768 and normal textures might be a good idea for the first look.
It also shows the power of CPU and GPU for complex physics, fancy physics engines on PCI cards are redundant by design."_


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## sekhu (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> wow, the ignorance is astounding, these days most people seem to think anything good has to be 1GB+++ bloatware to be of any worth...
> 
> get a clue, i'm not even gonna lay down the history of size restricted coding, just to say thats its been done in competition now for many many years...
> 
> ...



I second pandas0nics comments, don't talk about things you have no clue about and do some research before making unsupported comments. Gamers are so narrow minded these days


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## Elrinth (Jun 13, 2007)

procedurally generated data is the shit. haven't done it myself yet, but my friends have, and they've created a really neat app


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## Veho (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(ZAFDeltaForce @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> A graphic-heavy game complete with the works and is under 100 KB? Hmm... This sounds fishy.


No it doesn't. "Regular" games have all the textures saved in a graphics format. The sound is recorded. That takes a lot of space. *[oversimplification]* This game generates them from fractal functions/vector textures, and the sound is just advanced MIDI. That way it all fits into a very small space. *[/oversimplification]* 
However, it's very hard to use this method to compress existing textures. The simplest solution is to play around with the polynome coefficients, and if you like the results (generated textures) you get with certain settings, you keep them. To compress existing textures, you have to take them one by one and vectorize them, then fine-tune the code for size, and you have to do this with every texture you're going to use. This is difficult, not to mention_ very, very boring_





The game code is 100KB in size, but when started, it generates over 2GB of data in temp files and keeps it on your disk. Equivalent to having a 2GB game on a DVD.


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## jesterscourt (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Destructobot @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger




Thank you! This was exactly what I was trying to find!


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## spokenrope (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> wow, the ignorance is astounding, these days most people seem to think anything good has to be 1GB+++ bloatware to be of any worth...
> 
> get a clue, i'm not even gonna lay down the history of size restricted coding, just to say thats its been done in competition now for many many years...



My favorite thing is when somebody knows more than most about a particular subject, and then instead of ignoring the topic or patiently explaining how something works, they get all snippy and look down on those who aren't as learned as they are.


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## jelbo (Jun 13, 2007)

OMG, this is awesome! Imagine what current PC games could look like when lots more effort is put into it


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## Azimuth (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(spokenrope @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > wow, the ignorance is astounding, these days most people seem to think anything good has to be 1GB+++ bloatware to be of any worth...
> ...



yup, they try to prove how 1337 they are, its kinda sad. If you wanna make a point they don't insult us, enlighten us with your "wisdom".

I don't think this type of compression is possible on larger games since quite a lot of resources are used to render the graphics and with larger games that have thousands of textures it would put a huge strain on the pc.


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(spokenrope @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> ...



well imagine there would be like "history" function at photoshop. they use mathematics to play back "textures". textures are made in texture gen which uses mathematics .. so texture is just stored as f0g560534 string for example.. and so on


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## TheStump (Jun 13, 2007)

I assume this game takes the same premise as that of a flash game created entirley with action scripting?
I played the demo, its really great.  alot like a dulled down UT2004.  But the impressive thing i spose is the way its been created.


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## - Wrath of God - (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(veho @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(ZAFDeltaForce @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > A graphic-heavy game complete with the works and is under 100 KB? Hmm... This sounds fishy.
> ...


Or instead of converting textures, you could create them in vector form to begin with, even though drawing vector graphics to screen is very GPU-consuming.

I haven't made anything big yet (or quite as pretty), but whenever I make something, I try to use as little pre-made graphics as possible.  All of my games run on vector engines.  But like I said, I haven't made anything big yet.


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(TheStump @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> I assume this game takes the same premise as that of a flash game created entirley with action scripting?
> I played the demo, its really great.Â alot like a dulled down UT2004.Â But the impressive thing i spose is the way its been created.


well no...
actually it is created more effectively. its basically "cheating". if you know 3d models are made from "primitives" so basically they made code that analyses 3d model and splits it into primitives which can be constructed with mathematical seed. and so on.. everything is just very much do with mathematics.


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(- Wrath of God - @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(veho @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(ZAFDeltaForce @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> ...


textures are generated. kkrieger has mini-photoshop inside of it and stored basic info of textures. then when program runs mini photoshop generates textures...
edit: mini photoshop (my term) its little program that is just made for generating textures. it is actually quite simple. just google for aardbei texture gen and try it.


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

all this is made just for btw. just for kicks. there is no real use for these realtime generated animations and stuff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 most demosceners are cs students who are interested in computers and arts. demoscene is like crosspath of mathematics and art. math is beautiful


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

also reason is that demos use cheating/cheats, i dont want to tell some cheats what are used but they're kinda simple. when you understand how these cheats are done you will respect these guys less


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## lagman (Jun 13, 2007)

C-C-C-C-C-COMBO





No, it was actually interesting to read, but...four posts, I'm confused


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## Maikel Steneker (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> wow, the ignorance is astounding, these days most people seem to think anything good has to be 1GB+++ bloatware to be of any worth...
> 
> get a clue, i'm not even gonna lay down the history of size restricted coding, just to say thats its been done in competition now for many many years...
> 
> ...


Wow, I didn't know they made that one too! It's amazing!


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(lagman @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> C-C-C-C-C-COMBO
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sorry i'm just so fan of this subject coz i have my own demogroup called "jasoft" (btw. looking for members so if you are good with photoshop or making musics or code PM me 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


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## pandas0nic (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(rest0re @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> well no...
> actually it is created more effectively. its basically "cheating". if you know 3d models are made from "primitives" so basically they made code that analyses 3d model and splits it into primitives which can be constructed with mathematical seed. and so on.. everything is just very much do with mathematics.



You seem to play down the skills and talents of these coders, cheating and hardcore optimization share a fine line between them, being able to optimize to such an extreme level is definately a worthy skill even if some cheating is involved with rendering techniques, object creation, memory management etc etc...

For example there is no cheating invloved whatsoever in a softsynth, this is a very hard thing to code to a decent level, and the one i'm using in my demo group ( i dont want to mention the name, all you need to know is that they've already won competitions 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ) ... has advanced features found in commercial softsynths like lfo units, filters, envelopes, everything able to modulate, various generators etc etc ... all hand coded, and can generate a 16bit tune at 44.1kHz to the size of ~1k if need be...

You seem a cool fellow demoscener, but i just dont think you should play down the talents of these people, as many work in the games industry aswell and code many of the games you already pirate


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## nephdj (Jun 13, 2007)

They added a .net lightning engine since this demo came out, so if they rereleased it, would look even better 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




amazing what optimization can do


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## cruddybuddy (Jun 13, 2007)

Don't fall for it people.


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## Strider (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(cruddybuddy @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> Don't fall for it people.



Group: Banned!

Says it all 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Seriously, just because you can't comprehend what's going on doesn't mean it HAS to be a virus or such...


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## Tomobobo (Jun 13, 2007)

That debris demo was astonishing.


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(rest0re @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > well no...
> ...


iam not a coder but i always regarded demoscene to be kinda magic and "cheating". good magician never shows how they do the tricks. i agree that softsynth is no cheat, but it can for example use gm.dll for sound generation. and its not easy, yes but if you know how to do it reading tutorials around you can get hang with it. just trying to make my point as simple as i can so others would understand what is it about  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



edit: at least pink/abyss (amiga scener) is coding games for ds. he also made that sound-engine that they license... shinem afaik.
edit2: what i meant is that old demos for example display unlimited sprites on old machine. its "cheat" or "magic trick" .. no i dont play down the talent. i just say that its not that "magical" as some think. well maybe coz i used to work with some guys making 64k intros/demos


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## pandas0nic (Jun 13, 2007)

Yes Pink of Abyss went and started his company, Shinen, with much commercial success and made an evolved version of the wonderful AHX tracker on amiga expanded and enhanced for portable handheld systems... Many, many games are worked on by demosceners, and always have been and still are, from C64 to PS3... for example Max Payne was pretty much coded entirely by demosceners


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> Yes Pink of Abyss went and started his company, Shinen, with much commercial success and made an evolved version of the wonderful AHX tracker on amiga expanded and enhanced for portable handheld systems... Many, many games are worked on by demosceners, and always have been and still are, from C64 to PS3... for example Max Payne was pretty much coded entirely by demosceners


about max payne: this is not totally true. there are outsiders at remedy team now but originally yes there was much demosceners afaik...


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(cruddybuddy @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> Don't fall for it people.


if you dont believe check from wikipedia articles

demoscene
farbrausch
.kkrieger
procedural texture generation
realtime raytracing

and why wikipedia would lie or spread viruses?


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## pandas0nic (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(rest0re @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes Pink of Abyss went and started his company, Shinen, with much commercial success and made an evolved version of the wonderful AHX tracker on amiga expanded and enhanced for portable handheld systems... Many, many games are worked on by demosceners, and always have been and still are, from C64 to PS3... for example Max Payne was pretty much coded entirely by demosceners
> ...



lol i never said Remedy were _only_ consisiting of demosceners now, i just said originaly Max Payne was pretty much coded by demosceners, ofcourse Remedy has now expanded and has many talented people in their company 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




And this "dont fall for it people" phrase is funny, i think he's just joking now


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(rest0re @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> ...

















 well back to gaming  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 well if you come to assembly you need to talk with eetu (frank of orange) he made much stuff for max payne and mad onion stuff. also he made nice original animations in orange demos and nowadays he made some commercial stuff at little ad-agency/tv-broadcasting production company called undo.fi. they made finnish version of idols intro animation


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## pandas0nic (Jun 13, 2007)

I am indeed comming to assembly.. and i have also worked commercialy in games and ofcourse in demos also, which is why i dont want to give my real nick or group name away... perhaps i'll meet you there then


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## Xeijin (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Azimuth @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> I don't think this type of compression is possible on larger games since quite a lot of resources are used to render the graphics and with larger games that have thousands of textures it would put a huge strain on the pc.



I don't think it's so much the strain on the system, as it is the ridiculously long loading times, already pretty long for a relatively short demo it would be excruciating for a full PC game. Though of course, you would still need pretty good hardware regardless.


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## Strummer (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(rest0re @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> all this is made just for btw. just for kicks. there is no real use for these realtime generated animations and stuff
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no real use? yeah, except for a little obscure game that no one knows about called Spore coming out this year that's based heavily on proceduraly generated content  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



[/sarcasm]

also, the first proper 3d game, Elite, had a proceduraly generated universe with 2048 planets, complete with statistics and descriptions, from a few bytes of code


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## pandas0nic (Jun 13, 2007)

word.
good call.
this is all true


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Xeijin @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(Azimuth @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this type of compression is possible on larger games since quite a lot of resources are used to render the graphics and with larger games that have thousands of textures it would put a huge strain on the pc.
> ...


well what it could do is that for example "generate textures" beginning of each level for example.. but thats just idea. i dont know if any selfrespecting photoshop guy would wanna work with textgen just to save space coz we got it almost unlimited nowadays


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Strummer @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> QUOTE(rest0re @ Jun 13 2007 said:
> 
> 
> > all this is made just for btw. just for kicks. there is no real use for these realtime generated animations and stuff
> ...


well.. we got dvd now with lots of space so i think its kinda useless to make small stuff, but procedurally generated content is always interesting, shame that no other makers wanna "try to make something new" they just wanna do another 3d shooter or sports game and dont do anything risky or something weird...


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## mcp2 (Jun 13, 2007)

It's called the commercial we live in. Every game producer tries to stick to what works to make money.


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## tamper1 (Jun 13, 2007)

So why aren't we seeing these kinds of amazingly smart programming techniques to bring better quality 3D games to the DS?

Or are we?


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## rest0re (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(tamper1 @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> So why aren't we seeing these kinds of amazingly smart programming techniques to bring better quality 3D games to the DS?
> 
> Or are we?


again: iam not coder but i think not much because ds is not very powerful machine. not much work memory. but i think spore is going to be ported for ds (dunno if this is possible). some kind of procedural level generation is possible .. at least it is used in pokemon dungeon game. its only depends coders ability to invent stuff where it could be used


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## RockingDude (Jun 13, 2007)

Would my demoscene name be r0ckingdude?


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## - Wrath of God - (Jun 13, 2007)

QUOTE(tamper1 @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> So why aren't we seeing these kinds of amazingly smart programming techniques to bring better quality 3D games to the DS?
> 
> Or are we?


Polygon limitations still apply for the DS.  Also storage space isn't the problem in making 3D games for DS, it's memory.  And these techniques take up more memory and processing power than the DS has.  Even if you could make awesome graphics on the DS, you couldn't make it run at an acceptable framerate.


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## rest0re (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE(RockingDude @ Jun 13 2007 said:


> Would my demoscene name be r0ckingdude?


i'm the original zero


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## mag2005 (Jun 14, 2007)

I remember playing that 96kb game long time ago. It's a pretty decent looking fps for a 96kb file. You can actually download and play the game.


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## spas (Jun 14, 2007)

http://www.pouet.net/

For those interested in the demoscene use the link above to see more.

These skills would prove very useful in the future when processors speed can replace physical storage due to the massive amounts of compression.  Its all about sqweezing all you can out of somethin.

A dam lot of work goes into these prods.


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## pandas0nic (Jun 14, 2007)

Edit: removed, dont want to offend anyone


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## cruddybuddy (Jun 14, 2007)

How fast internet connection do I need in order to download this game?


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## arctic_flame (Jun 14, 2007)

28.8Kb/s


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## rest0re (Jun 14, 2007)

QUOTE(pandas0nic @ Jun 14 2007 said:


> Edit: removed, dont want to offend anyone


fuckings to lamers and greetings to accession only?


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