# Do you think Pokémon is overestimated?



## RodrigoDavy (Jan 2, 2013)

It seems to me that the Pokémon main series haven't really *evolved*. It still feels the same as the original Red and Blue releases. Also, the gameplay is really boring, forcing you to just press the A button repeatedely 80% of the game.

So, how do you feel about Pokémon? Is it good the way it is or could it use some change?


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## smile72 (Jan 2, 2013)

No, Pokemon is awesome. You're just hating on Pokemon aren't you? I love Pokemon especially Kyogre, so cute!!! There isn't anything I would change. Though I should mention I love J-RPGs.


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## AshIris (Jan 2, 2013)

i sense some disrespect coming in this thread...  btw,  some parts of pkm should change, while others should stay the same.  thats just my opinion.


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## Latiken (Jan 2, 2013)

I say yes. The series hasn't changed much of anything since gen1.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 2, 2013)

I realized that I just changed my profile picture to one that contais a Pokemon, lol!


smile72 said:


> You're just hating on Pokemon aren't you?.


Maybe  




AshIris said:


> i sense some disrespect coming in this thread... btw, some parts of pkm should change, while others should stay the same. thats just my opinion.


Well, I expressed my opinion (which is negative for now) but I invited others to express their opinios too. I hope it was not disrespectful


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## emigre (Jan 2, 2013)

I think Pokemon is rote and repetitive. Its Nintendo and Game Freak's Call of Duty.


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## Xarsah16 (Jan 2, 2013)

I've owned all of the major games since Gen 1, and, well, honestly, I've grown bored of it. Pokemon will forever be a part of my life that I love, but it no longer holds my interest because the series really hasn't changed much. Sure, it's grown as new things keep getting added, but the main goal of the game is the same - collect all 8 (or 16 badges for Kanto/Johto) and all the Pokemon. I can pop in Diamond version into my DS, and Black 2 into my DS, and feel like I'm playing the same game with different scenery.

It really just is getting to the point where it's tooth and nail. I agree with the last 2 posters (at the time of my writing) in this thread.

While I may not ever beat Black or White 2, (which I've had since launch, got both the Japanese on launch day at the Tokyo pokemon center and the English on launch day at my local Target store), I'll still love the series that pokemon is, but I think I've outgrown it.

I'll still flaunt my Espeon tattoo, though - I may be tired of the series but I still have mad respect for it.


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## Snailface (Jan 2, 2013)

I think Pokemon is overestimated but not overrated.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 2, 2013)

Snailface said:


> I think Pokemon is overestimated but not overrated.


 
Could you explain the difference between overrated and overestimated? (I tried to google the portuguese translation, but it translates overrated as overestimated)


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## spinal_cord (Jan 2, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> Could you explain the difference between overrated and overestimated? (I tried to google the portuguese translation, but it translates overrated as overestimated)


 
Being English myself, the English language often confuses me  But I would assume that overestimated referes to having guessed too high a number, you would estimate that 120 people did something, whereas overrated suggests that you assume something is better than it really is. You would rate something as being 8 out of 10 when really it's only 3 out of ten.


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## Psionic Roshambo (Jan 2, 2013)

The portable games could use a fresh coat of paint and a new story... 

I would really also like to see a MMORPG based on Pokemon for the Wii-U, of course this will never ever happen but it does seem like it would be fun.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 2, 2013)

Psionic Roshambo said:


> The portable games could use a fresh coat of paint and a new story...



I was really dissapointed that they used pixel based Pokemons in the DS games instead of 3D models just like Pokemon Stadium. I mean, the very least they could do was to give a proper graphic update for the serie.


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## Santee (Jan 2, 2013)

I really enjoyed it when I was introduced to it, and for a while after that, but now I can't even finish one game as I just lose interest in its repetitiveness.


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## ImNotSkilled (Jan 2, 2013)

I've been an avid player ever since Red.

Loved first gen, second, third and fourth.. I LOVED original fifth gen Black 1. I managed over 400 hours on that game just breeding! Absolutely loved it. The new trading was a fresh new step into the success of the pokemon series! Then came black 2/white 2.. Played through Black 2 maybe 2-3 times (mostly due to lost saves and what not) but the first time playing through was the hardest.. I couldn't find myself staying up until 4 in the morning playing under my sheets unlike Ruby or Platinum. There was a major factor lost somewhere deep within the coding between fourth and fifth gen... No idea what it is, but I sure know its not what a pokemon game should be.


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## Rydian (Jan 2, 2013)

Latiken said:


> I say yes. The series hasn't changed much of anything since gen1.


You never actually played Gen 1, did you.  Firered And Leafgreen are Gen-III, by the way.  They use the Gen-III engine and mechanics.

Gen-I was on the _greyscale gameboy_, and pokemon didn't even have _genders_ then (much less abilities and other things currently tracked), your bag only had one pocket and a limited number of slots so you needed to store items in the PC, there was of course no global trading, etc.

EDIT: Also, "Attack, Defense, Speed, Special".  Special was a single stat, not split into attack and defense.  This made psychic types incredibly powerful, and _there was no Steel-type or Dark-type in Gen-I_.



RodrigoDavy said:


> I was really dissapointed that they used pixel based Pokemons in the DS games instead of 3D models just like Pokemon Stadium. I mean, the very least they could do was to give a proper graphic update for the serie.


Dude, I'm surprised Gen-V works as well as it already does, seeing as the DS only has 4MB of RAM.  If they did use 3D models (like New Super Mario Bros.), they'd have to have pretty low polycounts, which would make them ugly.


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## Eerpow (Jan 2, 2013)

The basic idea behind the games have always been the same but the mechanics of the game has constantly been evolving, there's so much more strategy and possibilities in BW2 than there is in the early games then with the breakthrough of online competitive play there's no reason why anyone would want to go back and play a pokémon game that isn't the latest one. People complain about there being too many pokémon releases, but when you exclude the spinoffs, the remakes and the different versions of the same games you come down to 6 main pokémon entries for a franchise that's been around for the last 15 years or so. The games will probably eventually change up story elements, game goal and other things to a larger degree that before but the battle mechanics will remain the same as long as people want it that way, and seeing how it's accessible but deep at the same time they are I don't see its popularity fading anytime soon.

What they need to do now is to slow down and wait a while before introducing any 6th gen pokémon, they already have a large amount of pokémon to choose from and improve on if they were to reveal the new 3DS mainline pokémon game anytime soon.


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## Chaossaturn (Jan 2, 2013)

I love pokemon but the games remain the same but different every time, and yes you do just tap the A button over and over and the interface needs reworking and there take features away from the new games such as pokemon following you and have the run on always. Also unless you been playing pokemon all your life, there is also a lot of ingame talk that I heard people moaning about as there don't understand it. I think it should change but remain the same at the core, let hope the 3DS game sorts it out and improves on pokemon and not take things away.


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## Satangel (Jan 2, 2013)

TV-series: hell yeah, boring as fuck now too.

Games: no, the games are epic and truly worth their money. Easy to learn, hard to master, just like every good game out there. Definitely not overrated IMHO, although they sell incredibly well sometimes, which I don't agree with.


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## Hells Malice (Jan 2, 2013)

The game formula needs a major revamp. Way too easy, way too boring, way too limited.
They were fun when they first game out, but they need some serious changes to even be considered passable anymore. I can't even remember when or where I heard the possibility of Atlus influencing a pokemon game, but I was it had been true. Atlus could have done pokemon right, and taken it in the right direction.

But oh well. I suppose if they changed it NOW, it'd inconvenience its kiddy, simplistic playerbase.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

It's Dynasty Warriors or Call of Duty.

It's the same shit, different game but it has its fans and its fans don't want different shit. Make of it what you will.


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## weavile001 (Jan 2, 2013)

pokemon stadium 3 D


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## gamefan5 (Jan 2, 2013)

emigre said:


> I think Pokemon is rote and repetitive. Its Nintendo and Game Freak's Call of Duty.


Yes but there's a difference, it works 'cause it's aimed at kids. 
But yes, it's nintendo's own COD.
But no, the formula doesn't need to be changed... We have seen improvements from gen 1 to 5. I srsly think think the only thing that should be improved is graphics. Ditch the sprites for 3D son. XD The gameplay itself is good, but that's me. But I'd like some twist around the gameplay. A bit of... idk change, a frsh coat of paint. I love Gen 5 because it gave me a bit of that. But it NEEDS something, but I can't quite tell what it is.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

gamefan5 said:


> Yes but there's a difference, it works 'cause it's aimed at kids.


 
So Pokemon is just like Call of Duty except it takes advantage of children and their parents by tricking them into buying rehashes every year while Call of Duty players have the sensibility to acknowledge what they're buying and be content with it?

There is a level of sleaze associated with Pokemon and its whole marketing strategy that promotes brand loyalty harder than Apple.


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## Arm73 (Jan 2, 2013)

You know, I must confess, I've owned every Nintendo systems to date, but I never played a Pokemon game....
Sure I'm not a fun of Pokemon in general, but I hear that underneath the Pokemon coat of paint lies a very good RPG.

I'd like to tray and get into it, but I don't know where to start !!!
There are so many titles out there ....
So to you guys that played them all, what's a good title to begin with for a n00b as myself ?
I mean something accessible, yet high quality, good example of what a good Pokemon game should be like without getting boring or frustrating, an possibly on the DS, but I also have means to play it on the GBA or Wii...

Any suggestion would be very appreciated.
Thanks


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## Rydian (Jan 2, 2013)

Arm73 said:


> You know, I must confess, I've owned every Nintendo systems to date, but I never played a Pokemon game....
> Sure I'm not a fun of Pokemon in general, but I hear that underneath the Pokemon coat of paint lies a very good RPG.
> 
> I'd like to tray and get into it, but I don't know where to start !!!
> ...


The main-series games are all on the portables (GB, GBC, GBA, DS), those are the games people most often talk about since the spin-off games are often entirely different genres (pinball, puzzle, etc.).

I suggest you start with a Generation-IV game (Diamond/Pearl/Platinum or Heartgold/Soulsilver), or Generation-V (Black/White, Black2/White2).  Generation-V fixes some annoyances from Gen-IV and is more story-oriented (as in there's more cutscenes and visible obstacle progression), but Generation-IV is still a good representation of pokemon in general.

The ones I put a slash through when naming are "pairs" of games in the same series, they're almost the same game, just with some minor storyline variances and a slightly-different set of wild pokemon you can encounter.


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## Arm73 (Jan 2, 2013)

Thanks a lot, probably I'll give Gen V a shot and see how I like it.
Cheers


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## gamefan5 (Jan 2, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> *So Pokemon is just like Call of Duty except it takes advantage of children and their parents by tricking them into buying rehashes every year* while* Call of Duty players have the sensibility to acknowledge what they're buying and be content with it*?
> 
> There is a level of sleaze associated with Pokemon and its whole marketing strategy that promotes brand loyalty harder than Apple.


For the first bold part. Yes XD. Either that or as long as the human species reproduce, pokémon will exist forever.
For the second bold part. I've seen either that, or massive fanboys.
As for the rest, I agree with you. XD


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## Tom Bombadildo (Jan 2, 2013)

Pokemon's formula has hardly changed since Gen 1. There have, of course, been minor detailed additions (such as gender, stat changes, natures, IVs, EVs ect) but Pokemon still remains the same game with a different skin:

A boy/girl goes off on a Pokemon adventure with the help of the local Professor to battle gyms, the Pokemon League and your rival(s), collect all the Pokemon and defeat the evil organization that threatens to rule the world using Pokemon.


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## Treeko (Jan 2, 2013)

I think the correct word to use would be "repetitive"but I still love pokemon, and I am pretty sure once they release a fully fledged 3ds pokemon game they would certainly kill that word "repetitive" or "recycled" from the series, anyways it might seem boring but it actually isn't if you play it at controlled times, that is what I've been doing if it starts getting boring a little I give it a rest for a week or two, but then I am bound to comeback cause of my addiction.


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## chris888222 (Jan 2, 2013)

To be honest, yes. Pokemon hasn't exactly changed much. The largest changes I've seen are possibly the EVs/special abilities and challenge mode.

The only pokemon that I'm likely going to play in the future are just going to be the remakes. Unless Gamefreak can do something like a RBY -> GSC jump again that is.


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## gamefan5 (Jan 2, 2013)

chris888222 said:


> To be honest, yes. Pokemon hasn't exactly changed much. *The largest changes I've seen are possibly the EVs/special abilities and challenge mode.*
> 
> The only pokemon that I'm likely going to play in the future are just going to be the remakes. Unless Gamefreak can do something like a RBY -> GSC jump again that is.


And IV's, breeding techniques, the seperation of the special stat into 2, gender, natures, physical/special attacks,and...
nope that's pretty much it. XD
It's changing but just little by little.


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## Ace Overclocked (Jan 2, 2013)

weavile001 said:


> pokemon stadium 3 D


Not gonna happen since the main games are on the handhelds and the stadium type games (stadium, colosseum, XD and Revolution) Are always on the consoles.


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## pierslogic (Jan 2, 2013)

Been playing since I got my hands on Yellow. Can't say I liked the ones after Ru/Sa/Em gens tho, they seemed so bland but I'm thinking about giving B2 & W2 a shot!


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## Gahars (Jan 2, 2013)

I think the word you're looking for is "overrated", but I digress.

Eh, personally, I don't care much for the games. The last one I was really into was the original Gold - I haven't really stuck with any of the others. That's not to say it's bad (though some seem to think that the franchise is beyond reproach, and that any criticism is akin to heresy) - I would say it's the gaming equivalent of hot pockets. It's not the finest choice out there, you're not going to get a whole lot out of it, but it can still be a comforting, accessible treat.


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## Sterling (Jan 2, 2013)

Pokemon as a game series has changed very little. There's the main games with the RPG "raise your champions" aspects. There's very little storyline to speak of (though the latest games seem to be trying to change that), and the gameplay has stayed true to what made it fun in the first place. This is good IMO and I can't wait to see what else they add to make them better. The people who dislike the series seem to either stop at one generation or they just hate the games (such as comparing it to Call of Duty's _yearly_ releases). Pokemon's inner mechanics have changed so much since R/B/Y and that's what keeps them fun IMO.


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## Elrinth (Jan 2, 2013)

So... Pokemon Black on NDS was voted 40/40 by Famitsu.
So I bought the game just before christmas. I played it just a bit.
Here's my complaints:
My game was a preowned copy, so there was a save game already there. The game only allows one save at a time, and if you start a NEW GAME with a save already there, you can't save, AT ALL! It says you should look in the manual how to delete the save game. Which it doesn't say ANYTHING ABOUT.
So in order to get the information you need before you can play a new game with a preowned copy, you need to first start the game, then try to save to get the information that you should press SELECT + B + UP or something like that in the title screen.
It also says that this information can be found in the manual. Which it can't!
So I'd already deduct a few points cause of this.

As for the game itself, I can't speak much. I haven't come there yet, but it's definatly overrated if it's gotten 40/40 with such a big flaw.

ACTUALLY. PAGE 14 does say how to delete your saved game.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

Elrinth said:


> So... Pokemon Black on NDS was voted 40/40 by Famitsu.
> So I bought the game just before christmas. I played it just a bit.
> Here's my complaints:
> My game was a preowned copy, so there was a save game already there. The game only allows one save at a time, and if you start a NEW GAME with a save already there, you can't save, AT ALL! It says you should look in the manual how to delete the save game. Which it doesn't say ANYTHING ABOUT.
> ...


 
How Famitsu rates games and the quality of a game are really quite different.


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## Sterling (Jan 2, 2013)

Elrinth said:


> So... Pokemon Black on NDS was voted 40/40 by Famitsu.
> So I bought the game just before christmas. I played it just a bit.
> Here's my complaints:
> My game was a preowned copy, so there was a save game already there. The game only allows one save at a time, and if you start a NEW GAME with a save already there, you can't save, AT ALL! It says you should look in the manual how to delete the save game. Which it doesn't say ANYTHING ABOUT.
> ...



That's not a flaw, it's a preventative measure to keep others from deleting your hard earned work.


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## Smuff (Jan 2, 2013)

Yellow all the way


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## Elrinth (Jan 2, 2013)

Sterling said:


> That's not a flaw, it's a preventative measure to keep others from deleting your hard earned work.


yeah how about they remove the ability to delete a save all together. that way, no one can remove your hard work...
If they can't write about it in the manual, but they can write about other pointless and self explanatory stuff, then something is wrong. (Correction, they do write about it in the manual, but still, these are things which should be self explanatory, you shouldn't NEED to open up a manual in order to learn about how to delete someone elses save game for a preowned copy. Or delete your own save game for that matter.)

As for the 40/40 famitsu score. Ofcourse those scores are overrated alltogether.
But I decided I wanted to play thru every 40/40 game in the list, just for fun. Then I could make my own video reviews of the games, and give my point of view.


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## Sterling (Jan 2, 2013)

Elrinth said:


> yeah how about they remove the ability to delete a save all together. that way, no one can remove your hard work...
> If they can't write about it in the manual, but they can write about other pointless and self explanatory stuff, then something is wrong.


I think you're over thinking this. If it doesn't say it in the manual (which it does in mine) then a simple google will help you fix your problem. It is definitely nothing wrong with the game. Don't forget, there are people who are still new to the series, and this other self-explanatory stuff is needed.

EDIT: oh yeah, if that first part was true, your pre-owned copy would be fucking useless.


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## The Real Jdbye (Jan 2, 2013)

I think the word you're looking for is overrated.
They certainly are milking it a lot but it has had some great improvements on the DS and I'm looking forward to seeing it on the 3DS.
I'd like if they made bigger changes to it, but the improvements they have already made on the DS are enough to keep me interested.

But that's only counting the games, as it's pretty much commonly agreed upon that the show is slow, repetitive and boring. They could've done a lot more with it, but instead they just repeat the same formula of travelling and being interrupted by team rocket trying to ruin their day and failing every time. At least the movies are decent though. But that's not what the OP was talking about anyway.


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## Rizsparky (Jan 2, 2013)

Elrinth said:


> yeah how about they remove the ability to delete a save all together. that way, no one can remove your hard work...
> If they can't write about it in the manual, but they can write about other pointless and self explanatory stuff, then something is wrong.
> 
> As for the 40/40 famitsu score. Ofcourse those scores are overrated alltogether.
> But I decided I wanted to play thru every 40/40 game in the list, just for fun. Then I could make my own video reviews of the games, and give my point of view.


 
When my 100+ hour Pokemon Red save was deleted, I shat myself. A quick google usually remeides the problem if the deletion sequence isnt found in the manual anyway.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

If you delete an unwanted save (even after it warns you about it) by "accident" then you deserved that lost save file. The game double checks if you want to delete it.

I can't believe fans would want developers to take away a basic function because they're too hasty to actually read and make sure they're deleting their fucking file. Seriously, what is this.


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## Sterling (Jan 2, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> If you delete an unwanted save (even after it warns you about it) by "accident" then you deserved that lost save file. The game double checks if you want to delete it.
> 
> I can't believe fans would want developers to take away a basic function because they're too hasty to actually read and make sure they're deleting their fucking file. Seriously, what is this.


Umm, I'll agree with the first part, but my little brother doesn't (or didn't in this case) care if he deletes my saves. Same goes for people who are assholes or stole your cart. Also, developers _did not take away a basic function_, they just made it harder to perform.


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## Rizsparky (Jan 2, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> If you delete an unwanted save (even after it warns you about it) by "accident" then you deserved that lost save file. The game double checks if you want to delete it.
> 
> I can't believe fans would want developers to take away a basic function because they're too hasty to actually read and make sure they're deleting their fucking file. Seriously, what is this.


 
When a younger family member gets a hold of your handheld without your knowing and mashes the new game button there's not much someone can do...


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

Rizsparky said:


> When a younger family member gets a hold of your handheld without your knowing and mashes the new game button there's not much someone can do...


 
I forgot that game development is affect by the first world problems of twelve year olds.

I just think cutting out replay value of a game (not to mention ALL resale value) because stupid kids can't learn to respect boundaries or protect their shit is quite honestly a bit stupid.


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## Elrinth (Jan 2, 2013)

Sterling said:


> I think you're over thinking this. If it doesn't say it in the manual (which it does in mine) then a simple google will help you fix your problem. It is definitely nothing wrong with the game. Don't forget, there are people who are still new to the series, and this other self-explanatory stuff is needed.
> 
> EDIT: oh yeah, if that first part was true, your pre-owned copy would be fucking useless.


yeah page 14 in the bottom it does indeed say how to delete a game. but that still doesn't forgive the fact that you can start a new game, but during it, you can't save. so any progress will be lost. (it says so in the info text before you start a new game aswell).
Why even give the option to allow for new game if you can't save the progress in it? Why not just make a "Play demo" or something instead and throw the player straight into the action, instead of having to play thru the boring start..
I call that bad design. Tho obviously, I'm not going to rate the whole game over such a small nitpick  I'll come back in a few weeks and give my personal opinion on the game.


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## Sterling (Jan 2, 2013)

Elrinth said:


> yeah page 14 in the bottom it does indeed say how to delete a game. but that still doesn't forgive the fact that you can start a new game, but during it, you can't save. so any progress will be lost. (it says so in the info text before you start a new game aswell).
> Why even give the option to allow for new game if you can't save the progress in it? Why not just make a "Play demo" or something instead and throw the player straight into the action, instead of having to play thru the boring start..
> I call that bad design.


You want to start a new game? Just make sure you have the button sequence before you start it up. You don't have to be in the middle of a game to delete the save. Jeez, if it's that big of a problem, I suggest finding a different game altogether. I don't want to say it's too complicated for you, but you really don't have any say in the matter. Just play the game and quit making such a big fuss over such a small thing. >.>


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## Elrinth (Jan 2, 2013)

I definatly have say in the matter! As a gbatemp user and a consumer of one of the games in the series mentioned in the thread, I have the right to have an opinion!
I may not have finished the game or even played much of it, I can still build my own feelings towards the game based on the little I've tried.
So far, it feels like Pokémon is overrated. Here's what I got so far:
Very simplistic beginning, it doesn't matter which pokémon you choose, they are all the same level and they all have the same abilities. To win the matches in the beginning, you simply have to lower the defense first, then attack constantly. I'm guessing later it becomes more and more advanced, with evolving pokemon and the requirement to switch between pokemons in a fight. But it doesn't feel as tight as FF4,6,7,9. Atleast, not yet.
But my feelings can definatly change once I've played more of it.


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## Sterling (Jan 2, 2013)

Elrinth said:


> I definatly have say in the matter! As a gbatemp user and a consumer of one of the games in the series mentioned in the thread, I have the right to have an opinion!
> I may not have finished the game or even played much of it, I can still build my own feelings towards the game based on the little I've tried.
> So far, it feels like Pokémon is overrated, But my feelings can definatly change once I've played more of it.


I never implied otherwise. I just think that you're blowing such a small thing totally out of proportion. Sure it's harder to delete a save, but that's because _supposed to be_. Hopefully you'll judge the game on it's gameplay and not a technical difficulty.


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## Deleted User (Jan 2, 2013)

I do believe that Pokemon needs a new story thats not based around a legendary, but the core gameplay should remain the same.
If you are a fan of the series you won't think Pokemon is overrated because if you love one of them, you love all of them. The same goes for other games such as call of duty, halo, madden, etc.
As for me, I have never regretted my purchases of "the same game" every year because I enjoy playing them.


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## Latiken (Jan 2, 2013)

Rydian said:


> You never actually played Gen 1, did you.


I've played the ROMS some but never the physical game. I know of all the changes they have done so far (atleast now I do). I meant the whole consept. I've always enjoyed Pokemon games and I always will. But it would be really nice if they changed it slightly. Not the whole thing because then it would feel unpokemon like.


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## Chary (Jan 2, 2013)

Pokemon isn't a "mash "A" fest" Sure, the plot is simple, and the story is lacking, but Pokemon can get pretty intense. For example, competitive battling requires perfect IV's, EV training, breeding for perfect natures, and to know all the different calculations that you need to raise a perfect Pokemon.

On the outside, Pokemon looks simple, but when you take the time to delve into it, you can see how complex the series really is.


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## Deleted member 110780 (Jan 2, 2013)

What they need to do is make a Pokemon game that's like Custom Robo. Each move is set to a button, and you can move around and jump/fly. I'm sick of the current battle system and I wish it was more like the show, where the trainer will be like "Dodge that attack, then use [insert move here]!"


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

Chary said:


> Pokemon isn't a "mash "A" fest" Sure, the plot is simple, and the story is lacking, but Pokemon can get pretty intense. For example, competitive battling requires perfect IV's, EV training, breeding for perfect natures, and to know all the different calculations that you need to raise a perfect Pokemon.
> 
> On the outside, Pokemon looks simple, but when you take the time to delve into it, you can see how complex the series really is.


 
Yeah because getting those IV's, EV training, and breeding is just so very exciting.


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## Deleted User (Jan 2, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Yeah because getting those IV's, EV training, and breeding is just so very exciting.



It is. Especially when you have a beast of a pokemon.


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## Hadrian (Jan 2, 2013)

You can quote to me the many changes and other stuff but the main game is pretty much the same only with more annoying shit added (as Guild stated) and to be honest you can just play the same way as in the first game because there is little to no challenge anyway.

I lost interest when the first DS game was pretty much the GBA games with changes that made it more tedious, I tried B&W for a few hours only to find it being even more tedious and repetitive than before and with the most uninteresting and uninspiring generic "new" set of Pokemon.

Not sure who is to blame, it seems to me that Nintendo themselves are more hands off with the core series, I think The Pokemon Company have more to do with what can be done with the franchise than Nintendo, Nintendo tend to throw in the odd dramatic change in some of their core series such as Mario 64, Majora's Mask, Metroid Prime, Mario Kart, Star Fox, Kirby but with Pokemon they haven't done that at all and just played it safe.

We'll see what Gamefreak does with the next gen but if they bleed the current "new" engine dry for another game I wouldn't be surprised and the sheep will eat it up regardless.


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## Chary (Jan 2, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Yeah because getting those IV's, EV training, and breeding is just so very exciting.


Well, sure, but does grinding in any RPG tend to be fun? And it IS exciting to tear through opponents online, with a well trained Pokemon.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

Chary said:


> Well, sure, but does grinding in any RPG tend to be fun? And it IS exciting to tear through opponents online, with a well trained Pokemon.


 
I feel like the work vs. reward ratio here though is very, very disproportionate.


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## emigre (Jan 2, 2013)

Personally I find IV training fucking tedious.


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## Shinigami357 (Jan 2, 2013)

Here there be haters... Hm...

Other than being blatant flame/troll bait, I find this question needlessly cripe. Sorry for the bluntness, but there it is; you're being blunt, so I guess I am, too.

Just to give you guys background... The game was made by a guy who thought it would be cool to have a game where you collected creatures and trained/raised them and stuff. In particular because said guy loved collecting beetles, which is apparently a thing in Japan. This is the reason why pokemon is the way it is.

Pokemon is a game of collecting stuff and interaction [gee, I've, like, written that in at least one or two other threads before]. There is a reason why there're two versions, and seeing as there's two versions, coming up with two slightly off-kilter stories that just mesh up sounds too... complicated, shall we say?

This is the main reason pokemon remains in the hand-held market [because it would be awkward for 7-year-olds to drag around a console, though admittedly, nintendo consoles don't weigh a frickton], which by extension is why they have stayed simple [unlike some games where they have 1080p but you need to press four things at once to do any friggin thing].

The game stays true to the other ninty mainstays' simplicity [i.e. Mario is always jumping over stuff to stop Bowser and rescue a princess, Link is always saving Zelda through their convoluted timeline, Samus is forever shooting aliens in the face with her arm cannon and rolling up into a ball]. Most of its story is told through manga/TV series/movies anyway, which most people skip.

Also, for those blind whiners who say "there isn't any change since Gen I"... Kindly explain to me the mechanics of EV and IV, sorted through generations, sub-indexed by versions and with the mathematical formula, and an example or two. Because, you know, I seem to have taken a blind turn in Gen III and never got back on track, whereas you can prob explain it in like, two minutes? Add how breeding influences abilities and movesets, since I also can't get it, and apparently the rest of you can.


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## VMM (Jan 2, 2013)

emigre said:


> I think Pokemon is rote and repetitive. Its Nintendo and Game Freak's Call of Duty.


 
Call of Duty is repetitive, but at least they have the descence to evolve it graphically.
What can I say about Pokémon?


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## VMM (Jan 2, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Dude, I'm surprised Gen-V works as well as it already does, seeing as the DS only has 4MB of RAM. If they did use 3D models (like New Super Mario Bros.), they'd have to have pretty low polycounts, which would make them ugly.


 
What about 3DS? I think this is the perfect platform to stop using sprites and start using 3D models.
What do you think?


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## emigre (Jan 2, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> stuff


 
That is no excuse for the creative stagnation, or dare I say it creative bankrupcy of the Pokemon games since Gen 2. A rote formula which Game Freak have been using for a decade.

The mechanics of EV and IVs are tedious. Amazingly tedious. 



VMM said:


> Call of Duty is repetitive, but at least they have the descence to evolve it graphically.
> What can I say about Pokémon?


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## VMM (Jan 2, 2013)

@emigre, your image didn't work



emigre said:


> Personally I find IV training fucking tedious.


And it is.
Maybe Nintendo do it to separate casual from hardcore Pokémon games


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 2, 2013)

VMM said:


> hardcore Pokémon games


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## Shinigami357 (Jan 2, 2013)

Only tourney players do hardcore EV/IV training.

Also, to @Emigre...

Apparently, what Westerners call "creative stagnation" is because their eyes see itty-bitty graphics and they ragequit. Assuming that the internet is correct, Asians understand that changing how the numbers behind the gameplay works is "innovation", because apparently we're smarter [I didn't say that, the internet did].

In our opinion, varying the gameplay [which, by the way, is the whole FUCKING POINT of video games] by changing the background stuff, whilst trying to balance a game that you can't patch, [sorry to all you people who got clogged on DLC and shit, btw] is pretty fucking epic. We'd like to hear your opinion.


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## emigre (Jan 2, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> Only tourney players do hardcore EV/IV training.
> 
> Also, to @Emigre...
> 
> ...


 
I have no words to describe how fucking stupid this is. I like to take the piss but its not that often I call out something for plainly stupid. That is genuinely amazingly stupid.

It really is clear you don't want to read dissenting opinions.


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 2, 2013)

The Pokemon series owes its popularity to cross-marketing, not innovation. It wasn't novel when the first game launched, and has done little to foster innovation in the years since.


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## Shinigami357 (Jan 2, 2013)

Obviously our British friend here cannot even accomplish seeing hysteric sarcasm where it is most obvious.

Anyway, I wish you all the best of your million and one shootemups with EYE-BLEEDING 1080P GRAPHICS!!!!!111!!!oneone1!!!!1!!!!!oneone!!! where apparently the latest innovation is, uh... bouncing knives? Hiding behind stuff so you don't get shot? Erm... Oh, right, EYE-BLEEDING 1080P was the latest innovation. Maybe so much EYE-BLEEDING 1080P can blind you to sarcasm...

Cheers.


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## VMM (Jan 2, 2013)

When Emigre is accused of not understanding sarcasm you know something is wrong


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## Foxi4 (Jan 2, 2013)

The face of creative stagnation:


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 2, 2013)

wtf is a pokeyman?


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## emigre (Jan 2, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> wtf is a pokeyman?


 
A grown man who enjoys Pokemon and pokey bum blowjobs.


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## VMM (Jan 2, 2013)

Blood Fetish said:


>


 
Pokémon has a very complex metagame.
If gamer dedicates hundreads of hours on breeding the perfect pokemon and training EVs, I can only see this as a hardcore gamer


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## Blood Fetish (Jan 2, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law


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## emigre (Jan 2, 2013)

Personally I reckon we should all chip in to buy Shinigami some lessons in how to be vaguely funny.


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## Gahars (Jan 2, 2013)

It looks like Shinigami is hopping aboard the train to breakdown city with LegendaryTemper and Black-Ice. Choo choo.

So... is everyone taking crazy pills or what?


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## emigre (Jan 2, 2013)

Gahars said:


> It looks like Shinigami is hopping aboard the train to breakdown city with LegendaryTemper and Black-Ice. Choo choo.
> 
> So... is everyone taking crazy pills or what?


 
You forget Nynex (whatever)

Pokemon is surprisingly harmful to one's mental health.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

Insert some sort of Douglas MacArthur joke/reference in relation to Shinigami.


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## Shinigami357 (Jan 2, 2013)

[sarcasm]Well, I'm sorry if agreeing with you and keeping with your sense of humor is not my highest priority. You seem to have plenty of others to cater to that.[/sarcasm]

Sarcasm tags just in case... [sarcasm] Because Eastern humor apparently doesn't mesh well with Western humor... but I digress.[/sarcasm]


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 2, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> [sarcasm]Well, I'm sorry if agreeing with you and keeping with your sense of humor is not my highest priority. You seem to have plenty of others to cater to that.[/sarcasm]
> 
> Sarcasm tags just in case... [sarcasm] Because Eastern humor apparently doesn't mesh well with Western humor... but I digress.[/sarcasm]


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## Ethevion (Jan 2, 2013)

I like the idea of Pokemon, but the games are just stale now. Loved R/B/Y, really loved G/S/C, liked R/S/E, got bored of D/P/Pt, hated B/W, haven't tried B2/W2. Don't get me wrong, there are some interesting things added to the newer games, but the overall game was just boring. I still have respect for the idea of Pokemon though.


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## Black-Ice (Jan 2, 2013)

Gahars said:


> It looks like Shinigami is hopping aboard the train to breakdown city with LegendaryTemper and Black-Ice. Choo choo.
> 
> So... is everyone taking crazy pills or what?


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## GeekyGuy (Jan 2, 2013)

Really, folks? We're getting this bent out of shape over Pokemon? Aren't there wars, sexual preferences and racism to argue over?

Stop being douche bags -- that's an order!


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## Fishaman P (Jan 2, 2013)

For its target audience (casual gamers and kids), Pokemon is overrated.
For people who are into gameplay with deep mechanics, Pokemon is heavily underrated.

*EDIT:*

Wars the player wages against criminal syndicates
Furries who get off to Pokemon hentai
Jynx was accused of portraying blackface
How's that GeekyGuy?


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## Rydian (Jan 3, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Yeah because getting those IV's, EV training, and breeding is just so very exciting.


And getting every Monster/Blue attack for your materia in Final Fantasy VII is a fucking bore, and raising your GF's synch rates to max for each character in Final Fantasy VIII is such a bore, and making sure every single piece of equipment you use in Borderlands 2 is legendary-level is such a bore, etc.

I haven't bred a single pokemon or even looked at the IVs/EVs of my current team in White, and I'm playing through just fine.  Beat the elite four, working on making my way to the other cities and seeing what else has unlocked.

Originally IV/EVs weren't even visible, and they currently aren't directly visible without outside tools anyways (the game just gives small hints at which IV's are high/low and if a pokemon's EVs are full in total or for a specific stat), they're not intended to be messed with by the average person.

Also breeding is a main function in the form of getting more pokemon to trade away.  In the original series it was really damned hard to get a squirtle if you started with charmander because you'd need somebody else to start a new game, play until they can trade, and not level up their starter and then give it to you... with breeding it's not a concern, you can breed extra copies of pretty much any pokemon for trading, or re-raising something, or evolving it down a different path, etc.



Hadrian said:


> You can quote to me the many changes and other stuff but the main game is pretty much the same only with more annoying shit added (as Guild stated)


Last I checked the definition of an annoyance is something you're required to do that just impedes your progress.  You're not required to mess with IVs/EVs.  In fact IVs aren't even directly visible without third-party save-hacking tools last I checked... this is because IVs and EVs are intended to be a background thing, part of the game's engine.



Hadrian said:


> and to be honest you can just play the same way as in the first game


Which is why complaining about IVs and EVs is bullshit. 



Hadrian said:


> because there is little to no challenge anyway.


Compared to Gen-I, the game has gotten a good bit harder.

In Gen-I trainers were rather stupid, they only used items if specifically programmed to (and it only popped up a few times), they wouldn't switch out for weaknesses/resistances (the only time you saw a switch was with the juggler class, and that was just random as a joke on the fact that they were juggling the balls, it wasn't a strategic at all), they used random moves, you didn't need to worry about abilities, etc.

By the time of Gen-V trainers have gotten smarter.  Items aren't limited to a few key players, and trainers use them when needed.  Trainers will switch out a pokemon that might get creamed by yours, and they will actively try to exploit weaknesses (have a water-type against an electric, expect the opponent to use almost nothing but electric moves), their movesets aren't just "whatever this pokemon has at this level", you can't tell what ability a pokemon has (some, like Sap Sipper, will completely ignore the damage of an entire type of attacks and get a stat boost instead which can really be a surprise at a bad time), and more.

That's not to say that the game's hard, but there's some situations that can kick your ass as a surprise.  Anybody remember that pair of trainers in Emerald near the end of Victory Road that would pull out a girafarig and a slaking... _and then have the grafarig take away slaking's "truant" ability_?  That fight in Gen-III was a sign that they were designing harder situations as time went on.



Hadrian said:


> I tried B&W for a few hours only to find it being even more tedious and repetitive than before


Really?  Howso?  I've found B/W to be the _least_ tedious.  Use a recovery item and you stay in the pokemon screen so you can use multiple of them without having to constantly switch, HMs are rarely, if ever, needed for main progress (making HM slaves much less required), TMs are infinite-use instead of being their own megalixer, etc.



VMM said:


> What about 3DS? I think this is the perfect platform to stop using sprites and start using 3D models.
> What do you think?


The 3DS would have no problem with it, and it's what people are hoping for.



emigre said:


> The mechanics of EV and IVs are tedious. Amazingly tedious.


_So what_?

Figuring out that Mario's horizontal speed in Super Mario World for the SNES isn't a constant value and instead changes between 48, 47, 48, 47, and 49 and will stop on the current value when you jump and stop holding the direction key in order to try to jump at a speed of 49 units per second instead of 47 units per second to complete a level faster is boring tedious crap.

How come nobody bitches about that?  Oh, it's because it's not needed to actually play the game normally.


Figuring out that back-hopping and side-hopping in Ocarina Of Time are faster form of movement than running forward so you can just hop everywhere to get there faster is boring and a chore.

How come nobody bitches about that?  Oh, it's because it's not needed to actually play the game normally.


Figuring out that pressing L or R while samus is running in Super Metroid actually pushes her sprite forward by one pixel each time so you can constantly trigger these while running in order to move faster... that's a chore.

How come nobody bitches about that?  Oh, it's because it's not needed to actually play the game normally.

I could go on.


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## VMM (Jan 3, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Last I checked the definition of an annoyance is something you're required to do that just impedes your progress. You're not required to mess with IVs/EVs. In fact *IVs** aren't even directly visible without third-party save-hacking tools* last I checked... this is because IVs and EVs are intended to be a background thing, part of the game's engine.


 
You can use IV calculators like this:
http://www.serebii.net/games/iv-calcdp.shtml

There is no need to use save-hacking tools,
you only need info that are already in the game.


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