# How Progressive Is Japan



## kuwanger (Feb 16, 2019)

Gay couples in Japan join together on Valentine's Day to sue government over same-sex marriage ban

Discuss


----------



## DKB (Feb 16, 2019)

Might get some hate for this, but the motherfuckers ain't breeding. If they're not breeding, and people also want to be gay as well, well, the government is going to go into panic mode.

Which, this seems like why they banned it.

..Not sure actually why but I feel like this may be one of the reasons.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 16, 2019)

DKB said:


> Might get some hate for this, but the motherfuckers ain't breeding. If they're not breeding, and people also want to be gay as well, well, the government is going to go into panic mode.
> 
> Which, this seems like why they banned it.
> 
> ..Not sure actually why but I feel like this may be one of the reasons.


Why didn't they ban infertile or elderly people from marrying? Or couples who just didn't want to have kids?


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 16, 2019)

A lot might think Japan is "progressive" due to their


DKB said:


> Might get some hate for this, but the motherfuckers ain't breeding. If they're not breeding, and people also want to be gay as well, well, the government is going to go into panic mode.
> 
> Which, this seems like why they banned it.
> 
> ..Not sure actually why but I feel like this may be one of the reasons.


Marriage isn't about having kids. Still, by your logic, they should ban any married couples without, unable, or not wanting kids, they should also ban the elderly from getting married. In short, a ban on same-sex marriage isn't going to bring up the birthrates

As for the topic, sometimes I am shocked that Japan banned same-sex marriage and other times I'm not. The LGBT+ is often seen more as "fetish" in Japan and the modern Japanese culture is more pro-exploiting the LGBT+ than supporting the LGBT+.


----------



## DKB (Feb 16, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Why didn't they ban infertile or elderly people from marrying? Or couples who just didn't want to have kids?



Then you'd be banning most of the country, I guess. Most of Japan are old, and there isn't much couples anymore. They'd rather just fuck their pillows or robots. Or, they're just too busy. Mostly the latter.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 16, 2019)

DKB said:


> Then you'd be banning most of the country, I guess.


Then why pick on the gays, or anybody for that matter? Same-sex couples also do raise children sometimes.


----------



## Hanafuda (Feb 16, 2019)

Japanese cultural is historically quite accepting of homosexuality. But just as with western cultures, maybe even more than western cultures, there's really a difference between accepting homosexuality in a society, and accepting gay marriage. Why? Because to accept gay marriage, the culture not only has to be accepting of gays in the first place, but also accepting of the DEFINITION of the word marriage being changed, rather drastically. It took time here. It will take time there, too.

Anyway, to the OP's original question, 'how 'progressive' is Japan?' --- I would answer that you really can't measure any Asian culture by the American/Eurocentric yard stick we impose on our own society, so try learning more about the Japanese before you try to check them by your terms only. Having been involved with Japanese culture since 1985, having lived there almost 3 years, and having been married to a Japanese person (now naturalized US citizen) for almost 20 years ... I'd say the Japanese are miles ahead of the west on some moral/social issues, and backward _as FUCK_ on others.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 16, 2019)

Hanafuda said:


> Because to accept gay marriage, the culture not only has to be accepting of gays in the first place, but also accepting of the DEFINITION of the word marriage being changed, rather drastically.


It's been done many times, before anyone cared about gay people.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 16, 2019)

Lacius said:


> It's been done many times, before anyone cared about gay people.


To be fair, most people just pretend there was no history before rampant Westernization.


----------



## Paolosworld (Feb 16, 2019)

*insert horrible joke about gay people here*


----------



## Hanafuda (Feb 16, 2019)

Lacius said:


> It's been done many times, before anyone cared about gay people.




I'm not sure exactly what you mean there, but not arguing. Consistent with the rest of my post, you can't expect or impose the same expectations of progressive social change on a foreign culture, especially one as distinct as Japan's. They adopt Western systems and ideas at the pace their culture can take it. Which is rather quickly in most cases. And like I said, Japanese culture has been generally more accepting of homosexuality than the West for hundreds of years ... but on other social matters they can be quite prudish. If you expect that to change overnight because your Western values say it must, then you're no different or better than Christian missionaries who went around the world in the 1500's assuming their beliefs were naturally superior to those of the 'savages.'


----------



## Captain_N (Feb 16, 2019)

I really need to stay in japan for a few months. them hawt Japanese babes must be waiting for Americans like me.. 
At least japan dont kill gays like a lot of middle eastern countries...


----------



## notimp (Feb 16, 2019)

Japan, progressive? 

Lets see.

- Have a word for filthy foreigners? Check.

- Only recently lightened regulations on immigration, even though your median population age reached 46? Check.

- Expect politicians to step down in disgrace when they can not keep face? Check. (https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...panese-prime-ministers-keep-resigning/239850/)

- Have your own version of free market capitalism, thats not free and not capitalism? Check. (https://hbr.org/1992/07/capitalism-in-japan-cartels-and-keiretsu)

- Expect people to work more and sleep less than in every western democracy, have a cultural concept around working for the same company all your life being an honor? Check. Have a word for sleeping at work, because people simply fall asleep at work on that regiment? Check.

- Have a word for young people who dont do sex anymore, because of cultural aspects prohibiting mating, when you dropped to too low of a social class? Check.

- Still have your own emperor (But thats actually fine, because constitutional monarchie)? Check.

The thing is, we kind of love them for it though... (Own culture)


----------



## Deleted-479522 (Feb 16, 2019)

Japan is pretty strictly conservative but at the same time they generally enforce conformity via social pressure (and not legal pressure).

I don't think Japanese people care per se about LGBT but I do think that

 They would not have an issue applying social pressure (as they do with even the way you hold your chopsticks).
 Their conservatism would be they would wish to protect marriage in a traditional manner and I do not think they would accept that preventing gay marriage is depriving gay people of anything.


----------



## notimp (Feb 16, 2019)

Ah, and watch
*Kikujiro (1999) *(Kikujirô no natsu)

- because thats the best film about the culturally normal custom of mothers abandoning their children (leaving them to be raised by their grandparents) to be able to integrate into japanese society again, after something as 'normal' as a divorce. They probably have a word for that as well.

Oh - spoilers...  (But most people watching the movie, dont even recognize, that thats what its about.  )

Gotta love Beat Takeshis movies. 

Also, killer soundtrack.

edit: Or at least watch the trailer. Make sure subtitles are tuned on on the youtube clip.


----------



## notimp (Feb 16, 2019)

Also, the patriarchy is well and alive in Japan of course.


> But working doesn’t mean that these single mothers are doing well, economically. The poverty rate of single parent-families where the parent is working is 56 percent, which is also the highest in the OECD.


(OECD = developed countries, basically)

src: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/09/japan-is-no-place-for-single-mothers/538743/

I think thats about all that I can think of, when it comes to progressive Japan. 

Yes they are about as conservative as it gets. They are about as nationalistic as it gets. And they are about as stubborn as it gets. (If there arent enough people, why not replace them with robots?) You've gotta love them..


----------



## notimp (Feb 16, 2019)

No - I've got one more.

Their private capital investment rate currently is at 24% of GDP, while that of the EU is at 17% and that of Germany or France is at 18%. US is at 16.5%.

Thats interesting you say - so wheres that money coming from. Well...


> However, in comparison to Western nations, Japan’s capital stock was significantly lower, especially given the size of its population. Again over the next several decades Japan managed to create a capital stock equal to the advanced nations by 1985. This was done by elevated levels of investment. Between 1960 and 1985 the average annual private investment rate was 35.1 percent, a full four percentage points higher than Germany, nearly 10 above France, and 14 above the US and UK. In fact, even compared to the rest of the countries in the table, Japan’s private investment rate was second only to Singapore.





> Minami (1994) provides an excellent analysis of the importance of capital formation and investment in Japan’s economic success story. Unlike the experience of many other Western nations that were latecomers such as Australia, Canada, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden who achieved industrialization at a later stage than other advanced Western nations, Japan *did not* develop its capital stock by importing capital from abroad through net imports of foreign capital: Japan relied almost exclusively on domestic savings to finance the capital investment (Ibid., 152-53). Of course the high household savings rate in Japan compared to other nations was the main feature which allowed this.


src: https://books.google.com/books?id=Mo2QBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA19

This basically means, that japanese people invest their money in japan. And almost exclusively in japan.

Thats odd you say, because apparently japan has been in a recession quite a few times since the 1990s






Well, you see - the japanese arent that much into making a return on capital investments either. Not if it doesnt profit their national interests. 

Which is kind of non progressive and odd, now that you say it - but also, very nationalistic...


----------



## WiiHomebrew+Snes (Feb 16, 2019)

I don't know, do they bundle home and auto and have a name your price tool?.. I'll let myself out...


----------



## SG854 (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> Japan, progressive?
> 
> Lets see.
> 
> ...


Not all western countries. U.S. has Japan beat when it comes to crazy work hours.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Feb 19, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Or couples who just didn't want to have kids?


They all don't wanna have kids until they are almost too old, that's the problem. Not gonna lie, I think they probably find it dishonorable (like many things) it's a weird part of Japanese culture. Gotta remember many of their citizens if they don't get a job feel dishonorable so they never leave they're house, or they commit suicide which also in Japanese culture is pretty much fine if you did something to dishonor yourself or your family.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan

It does seem their was a time when it wasn't discouraged, then as they pushed for westernization, that changed.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 19, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> They all don't wanna have kids until they are almost too old, that's the problem. Not gonna lie, I think they probably find it dishonorable (like many things) it's a weird part of Japanese culture. Gotta remember many of their citizens if they don't get a job feel dishonorable so they never leave they're house, or they commit suicide which also in Japanese culture is pretty much fine if you did something to dishonor yourself or your family.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan
> 
> It does seem their was a time when it wasn't discouraged, then as they pushed for westernization, that changed.


My point was that if one were to argue that only fertile couples who plan on having children should be able to marry, then why isn't anyone advocating that we make marriage illegal to all but those couples?


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

SG854 said:


> Not all western countries. U.S. has Japan beat when it comes to crazy work hours.


Do you have a link? I know about the practice of holding several jobs just to get by. It sucks.

To google:
Japanese word for sleeping at work: inemuri
Japanese word for dying from overworking: karoshi

Here are some articles about the issues from the japanese perspective:
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/will-japan-finally-face-up-to-karoshi
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...panese-firms-tackle-epidemic-of-sleeplessness


----------



## Ericthegreat (Feb 19, 2019)

Lacius said:


> My point was that if one were to argue that only fertile couples who plan on having children should be able to marry, then why isn't anyone advocating that we make marriage illegal to all but those couples?


I really doubt it has anything to do with that, Japanese culture is very very different than ours, hard for us to understand.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 19, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> I really doubt it has anything to do with that, Japanese culture is very very different than ours, hard for us to understand.


I'm not the one who brought it up.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Feb 19, 2019)

Lacius said:


> I'm not the one who brought it up.


If you go back a couple post I wasn't either


----------



## erikas (Feb 19, 2019)

There are numerous studies that show: as women are granted more and more rights, they have less children and so the birthrate becomes below replacement value, therefore feminism is the solution to overpopulation. Now I ask you to think if "more rights for women" = "declining birth rate", what needs to happen for the birthrate to grow?


----------



## Lacius (Feb 19, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> If you go back a couple post I wasn't either


I didn't say you were.


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

erikas said:


> There are numerous studies that show: as women are granted more and more rights, they have less children and so the birthrate becomes below replacement value, therefore feminism is the solution to overpopulation. Now I ask you to think if "more rights for women" = "declining birth rate", what needs to happen for the birthrate to grow?



The answer is something between marketing and more incentives for families to have children (usually tax based).

But if you look at it from the perspective of there not being indefinite amounts of oil left, less population growth suddenly looks more like a solution. 

The issues as always are the transitioning phases.

So for example, if the baby boomer generation can dominate politics, simply by mass - this becomes an issue.

If we dont have the same growth built in into our economies - this becomes an issue.

If the only supposedly positive concepts and outlooks, that are floating around, are based around "saving the world" and "reducing climate change", that has limited growth potential - and no immediate local impact, so - this becomes an issue.

The thing is though, that going back to old solutions (that hardly worked back then) isnt the solution either, because the world develops around us (thats the globalization argument)...

So this becomes a complex issue.


If for you its just "prolonging your cultural heritage" its not, but if you look past that - it becomes a more complex issue, very fast. And in terms of prolonging cultural heritage - you would be amazed, how much cultures tend to change even in conservative countries over the years. Go back two generations, and you wouldnt recognize your own country - regardless of how progressive it was.

So after a while the "do I feel at home" argument lingers more around language than anything else. And if you look at that with an "agist" filter as well - the anti-immigration sentiments are caused by the same people who caused the population decline in the first place. And they did it to top off their economic status - from a base level, that their children never will reach.

If they'd now tell their children, to regress on womens rights to "solve this" because they want to feel more at home in their old days, that wont go over well. Apart from, that that wouldnt help.

Direct correlation from feminism to lower birth rates is questionable as well. They just were around at the same time.  Look at your parents. They caused the problem. Were they really that feminist? 

I'm inclined to call rightwing BS.  Count years, and get to the same conclusion.


----------



## SG854 (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> Do you have a link? I know about the practice of holding several jobs just to get by. It sucks.
> 
> To google:
> Japanese word for sleeping at work: inemuri
> ...


ABC News
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93364&page=1

137 more hours then Japanese workers

https://20somethingfinance.com/american-hours-worked-productivity-vacation/

This one puts Mexico at top. U.S. 16. And Japan at 22.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...ationalities-that-work-the-longest-hours/amp/


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

Thank you. I'll look into it.


----------



## erikas (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> The answer is something between marketing and more incentives for families to have children (usually tax based).
> 
> But if you look at it from the perspective of there not being indefinite amounts of oil left, less population growth suddenly looks more like a solution.
> 
> ...


You are adding complexity where none needs to be. This is an extremely simple issue. Were our parent feminists? Yes, feminism has been around for over 100 years now and the problems started with the enlightenment. The enlightenment got many things right, but "men and women are equal" is not one of them. And the current course of event is also very simple. Either you take women's right away yourself, or another culture will invade, destroy yours, and then take women's rights for you. There is no ending here where women keep their rights, your grandchildren will either hear how we had to take women's rights away or they will not exist at all.


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

erikas said:


> the problems started with the enlightenment. The enlightenment got many things right, but "men and women are equal" is not one of them.


And I'm out. 

Grew up in a family of strong women, I'm afraid.


----------



## SG854 (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> Do you have a link? I know about the practice of holding several jobs just to get by. It sucks.
> 
> To google:
> Japanese word for sleeping at work: inemuri
> ...


The work hours is a lot from single job holders.

Politifact recently did a fact check on Alaxandria Ocasio-Cortez and they gave her a pants on fire rating.

People that hold multiple jobs is 4% of the work force. This is full time and part time jobs.

If you count 2 full time jobs it’s 2%.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...dria-ocasio-cortez-wrong-several-counts-abou/


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

@SG854: Vacation times play into those statistic as well, but looking at  the yearly averages and comparing japan and other european countries, the differences arent as high, as I would have thought.

So the "sleeping at work" problem in japan seems to result more from longer commuting times (getting less sleep overall) than other factors.

Or their official statistics are fudged..


----------



## SG854 (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> @SG854: Vacation times play into those statistic as well, but looking at  the yearly averages and comparing japan and other european countries, the differences arent as high, as I would have thought.
> 
> So the "sleeping at work" problem in japan seems to result more from longer commuting times (getting less sleep overall) than other factors.
> 
> Or their official statistics are fudged..


Probably. How would that factor in? U.S. doesn’t take as much vacation as other western nations. I don’t know their vacation days compared to Japan.


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

Just in overall work hours per year. (What the ranking statistic you linked measured.) US has much less vacation time compared to european countries, at least that much I know of the top of my head.


----------



## erikas (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> And I'm out.
> 
> Grew up in a family of strong women, I'm afraid.


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal


----------



## radicalwookie (Feb 19, 2019)

SG854 said:


> Not all western countries. U.S. has Japan beat when it comes to crazy work hours.


Not a chance. 


Ericthegreat said:


> They all don't wanna have kids until they are almost too old, that's the problem. Not gonna lie, I think they probably find it dishonorable (like many things) it's a weird part of Japanese culture. Gotta remember many of their citizens if they don't get a job feel dishonorable so they never leave they're house, or they commit suicide which also in Japanese culture is pretty much fine if you did something to dishonor yourself or your family
> 
> It does seem their was a time when it wasn't discouraged, then as they pushed for westernization, that changed.



Why Are all westerners so orientalistic, thinking every move involves some zen shit mystic sense of honor or whatever? 

I can guarantee you that honor has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it. It’s the exact same thing as every other developed country. Careers, money, free time and other factors that keep people from having kids. Having a kid costs a load of money. Japan especially because schools arent free (here are public schools but these are avoided like plague). Just giving a birth costs somewhere around $6k there (if i remember correctly). 
Then theres the problem with the culture of men working and women being housewives. This has been changing drastically in the last 10 years but still one of the parents have to sacrifice his career (women in 99,9%) so that they can take care of kids and all. Pressure to provide enough money for 3+ people is big. Work hours suck ass. Wife usually has to get a “arubaito” working at supermarket, mr donut or some shit like that so that they can pay for everything. Apartments are expensive the closer you are to the cities where jobs are. My colleague had a family in Osaka and he worked in Aomori prefecture, only coming home for Sundays. On that note, fathers go to work at say 8 o clock and return at 9 or 10 in the evening. Many many fathers cant even meet their children unless its a weekend when they have a day off... then you have these “nomikai” which are pretty much required and can last all night to early morning. 

People commit suicide because they are stuck in the routine, failing at life and such. 
If you think that commiting suicide is considered to be fine in whatever aspect, you should stop watching samurai anime. 

Jeez


----------



## bgbrendan (Feb 19, 2019)

the problem with overtime stats is the jp goverment cracked down on overtime so people just clock out and keep "working" cause the boss is still there. at my workplace people supposed to finish at 5, but on our "No overtime day" people are finishing at like 7. I always go home right on time (cause im foreign and dont get the culture  )but i get messages from my direct supervisor at like 7pm or whatever

To answer the OPs question. LGBT in japan is kinda in a weird place in that its kinda accepted on TV etc (lots of gay/crossdressing celebs) but in daily life its kinda shameful and misunderstood. A friend of mine decided he wanted to come out at work and people thought that it meant he was a pedo too. But that's just par for the course in japan with cutting edge technology and everyone still using fax machines.


----------



## Panzerfaust (Feb 19, 2019)

How I like that simple logic by people, who mean, that accepting gay marriage / propaganda means progression...maybe it's just a western thing...b4 you attaking me for my opinion: i dont care  you can feel superior or whatever you think to be and beeing super duper progressive...just stop dictating your anti natural "progressive opinion" to others...same poison as bringing your "democracy" to other countries.


----------



## radicalwookie (Feb 19, 2019)

bgbrendan said:


> the problem with overtime stats is the jp goverment cracked down on overtime so people just clock out and keep "working" cause the boss is still there. at my workplace people supposed to finish at 5, but on our "No overtime day" people are finishing at like 7. I always go home right on time (cause im foreign and dont get the culture  )but i get messages from my direct supervisor at like 7pm or whatever
> 
> To answer the OPs question. LGBT in japan is kinda in a weird place in that its kinda accepted on TV etc (lots of gay/crossdressing celebs) but in daily life its kinda shameful and misunderstood. A friend of mine decided he wanted to come out at work and people thought that it meant he was a pedo too. But that's just par for the course in japan with cutting edge technology and everyone still using fax machines.


Dont get me started with fax machines or bank booklets or stamps instead signatures  I could go on forever xD


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

Panzerfaust said:


> How I like that simple logic by people, who mean, that accepting gay marriage / propaganda means progression...maybe it's just a western thing...b4 you attaking me for my opinion: i dont care  you can feel superior or whatever you think to be and beeing super duper progressive...just stop dictating your anti natural "progressive opinion" to others...same poison as bringing your "democracy" to other countries.


I'll take this one.

First, homosexual behavior is natural. You can see it all over the animal kingdom. You can see it with bonobos, penguins, ... (dont want to read on to get another example, but you certainly can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals )

Then there is the point, that LGB interest groups have actually fought years for their societal recognition, and they have done successfully so. And good on them - that actual change politics, the way it should be done.

Then there is the issue, that people see "data" as a future market, and you find out if someone is gay, basically based on 10 of their facebook likes within a week. So if we are going "privacy is a thing of the past" - we have to make quite a few more things normal - otherwise we'll end up in societies, where people are an open book to everyone - but a bunch of them will still hate others for what they are. Thats idiotic, bordering on impossible. 

I mean, hey - we now have homosexual relationships in western sitcoms for 30 years, its a bit late to announce to the world, that you are going into an entirely different direction on your own. Of course because you are morally superior in your anger.

*mep*


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

erikas said:


> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal


Its my family. Hard to call that anecdotal. 

Once, when I grew up... 

You were in gamblers fallacy territory before, but for your main arguments issue, the site has no section for.

The issue in your argument is akin to overgeneralization while employing follow up reasoning. And then a no other way out fallacy.

This works as follows - you perceive an abstract issue (population decline), to be overly caused by a single cause (feminism - not birth control, not social security, not new ways of life that had people not wanting to stay a home giving birth for 4 years in a row, ...) - although there is really no obvious causality.

Then you insist, that the issue can be fixed, by the adverse treatment of what you claim is causing it - namely to denounce female and male equality, and have women birth more children, by treating them as lesser humans again.

I don't know where on earth you want to raise up your cult compound, but you arent saving culture, or the world with your line of thinking.

You've hardly even identified a problem. (The world needs more people of my culture!? Why?)

If someone is feeding you that logic - try to distance yourself a little. Get some other ideas in your mind as well. Do it at your pace.

Some of the issues regional population decline causes are pretty real - so your sense of urgency isnt entirely wrong. Its just that your proposed solution isnt a solution at all.

("I know how to fix the economy! Lets go back to slavery, and then.."
Same logical fallacy. And single solution thinking.

Thats on the other side of trying to explain complex issues as simple as possible. More people think they can grasp them - more people can be mislead by BS - because they now have the idea, that they could grasp them...

If you never actually ask yourself "could it actually be more complex" - chances are, that someone is taking you along for the ride...  It doesnt always have to be - but at least dont always negate the thought experiment. Reverse reasoning logic, is almost never the solution to larger problems. ("If the people are starving, they should eat more..."  ))

And on the logic level. If people have too few children, they should f*ck more (got that part) - by denouncing womens equality in terms of being equal humans, and see them as the weaker sex again and... What? And then you'd get a partner as well? Or two? 

Because if we don't do it, the others will do it. (Islam?) On the same logic level, the moment islamist women enter open societies (think France), they first and foremost become liberated, because every other women they come in contact with is. Until their brothers kill them for family honor, of course - which is just proper darwinistic thinking, because then they have fewer women, and then surely they take over and become the master race... Ah - sorry, where were you going with the argument? Oh I know - becazse that generates an aura of fear, that means that their women can now stay at home for four years and - we as societies can do nothing against that sense of fear based life decisions? Or do you expect free women to be so weak, that they fall over and get captivated by the first real male with an urge to birth him four children again. No - I know, its the long game - so the islamic women in fear birth children, that are then not educated in western schools and dont come in contact with others, oh wait, they are doing that, arent they...

Its almost like social integration actually usually works, and doesnt automatically fail, because of genes? Testosteron?  Supreme fear based cultures?

I like my logic of "forbid dating apps" because people then arent caught in FOMO-something better cycles for years much better.  But I dont think that thats a sound argument. I just use it to provoke..


----------



## SG854 (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> Just in overall work hours per year. (What the ranking statistic you linked measured.) US has much less vacation time compared to european countries, at least that much I know of the top of my head.


Japanese and U.S. cultures are different too. More women are starting to work in Japan, but it’s still mostly women that are homemakers.

Japanese tend to stay after work even when their work hours are done, they can afford to do this since they have a female at the house to get things done.

But in U.S. men come home to do more work. Since women also work their isn’t anyone to do house chores, so instead of coming home to a clean house with food in the fridge they have split chores between their wives to do a little shopping and cleaning, this is also accounted for in statistics. So work time is accounted for in different ways.


----------



## erikas (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> Its my family. Hard to call that anecdotal.
> 
> Once, when I grew up...
> 
> ...


Oh boy, I'm going to go through every point.

Your family is anecdotal just as my family is, i can boast about how great my mother is, your average woman is borderline useless.

We are speaking about population decline and you're saying I'm "overgeneralizing"? This is once again the anecdotal fallacy. When we are speaking about a problem in a society, the only way to treat it is to generalize. Bringing up specific examples serves no purpose, i can find you families with over 10 kids, that doesn't make the birthrate above 2.

Birth control, social security, women having careers, unfair divorce courts, rampant infidelity, women not being held accountable for their actions and many more issues neither of us have named contribute to birth decline. All of these issues are caused by feminism. Feminists are the ones who demanded women be given education, demanded contraception research, demanded bigger government and a bigger welfare state(which overwhelmingly favors women), demanded women always be given full custody(also never complained about alimony being unfair, even though women can work), got universities filled with BS subjects that are nothing more than marxist propaganda and so on.

Let me explain what my solution actually is. 1. Only people who pay taxes get to vote, people who get welfare do not get to vote even if they have a job. 2. No gender quotas in either universities or workplaces, let the free market do it's thing. Women who are "strong" as you put it, and actually able to compete with men will manage if they want to, the rest don't have to. 3. No marxist propaganda in universities, should be self explanatory. I could add more if if i was describing my ideal state, but this is enough to just fix birth rate.

As for why does the world need more people of my culture? Are you a cultural relativist who thinks all cultures are equal? If you actually think that, look at some african communities who kill people for witchcraft, and i'm being very mild with my example, because if i made a list of top 10 worst cultures, all of them would probably have something worse. And i will say that western culture has done the world the most good. It  brought about technological advancement(you can list inventions by early muslims or chinese if you want, Tesla, Edison, Newton, Einstein were all from Europe) and was the only culture to even come up with the idea of "human rights" as we know them.

I do know how to fix the economy: less government, abolish the welfare state, you're done.

Of course it "could" be more complex, but are you saying my suggestion would not solve the problem? There's no need to account for every single possible variable, just the biggest one. And if it turns out not to be enough, then you can look for others. Also, giving women money to have children doesn't work. All you're doing is making people who were going to have children anyway have them sooner. And women who weren't going to aren't going to change their minds because they're also getting money to study.

Women are weaker by every objective standard. I do not think they are lesser human beings for that, but women are the ones who can give birth and we do not have a replacement for that, and even when we do it will be too expensive in the foreseeable future and we still need the egg cells from women so it's not a viable option considering the urgency. 

Muslims women do not become liberated, muslims in the west form ghettos and do not integrate, they do not let their women out or let them interact with the local population. Now yes, there are some who do get liberated (and become just as insufferable in the process), but they are a minority. I think muslims are doing the right thing not to get cucked, i dislike their culture because it's a dead end for any kind of progress.


----------



## notimp (Feb 19, 2019)

They are not. You win on a few technicalities (I had two weak points.  ), you loose, because I got you talking in specifics about how women are useless again. 

Here is the deal - they are not. Really. I promise. Anecdotally (I thought for a minute on how to produce statistical proof, then I laughed... ).

Try to get away from this being the cause of the big issues. I promise you, it is not.

Part of your parents economical wonderland was, that they raised productivity by having women entering the work force in large numbers. Companies want predictable productivity - so if we follow your "plan", and have women with mandatory (more or less) three children again, you get a productivity loss as a result - which probably would kick the entirety of europe into a serious recession.  For the most part, companies wouldnt want to employ them - because of higher uncertainty in planning and projection.

Complex issues.


----------



## erikas (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> They are not. You win on a few technicalities (I had two weak points.  ), you loose, because I got you talking in specifics about how women are useless again.
> 
> Here is the deal - they are not. Really. I promise. Anecdotally (I thought for a minute on how to produce statistical proof, then I laughed... ).
> 
> ...


I am not asking for mandated quotas for how many children a woman should have. I want less government not more. Government caused the problem by appealing to women voters. Also i'm not american, my parents grew up in the soviet union. And no you would not get a productivity loss, i didn't say women should be banned from working, i'm saying companies shouldn't be forced to hire them. And the reason companies don't want to employ women are: 1. they aren't qualified(marxist indoctrinates bitching about how there aren't enough women in stem) 2. they take maternity leave which bleeds the company money, 3. #metoo lawsuits. The last one already made all women unemployable without government intervention and it's their own fault.

P.S. if women were equal, they could have made women only companies, and competed with men, but these companies are nowhere to be seen.


----------



## SG854 (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> They are not. You win on a few technicalities (I had two weak points.  ), you loose, because I got you talking in specifics about how women are useless again.
> 
> Here is the deal - they are not. Really. I promise. Anecdotally (I thought for a minute on how to produce statistical proof, then I laughed... ).
> 
> ...


That is true. Household earnings went up since women entered the workforce. 2 pay checks are better then 1.


----------



## radicalwookie (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> Its my family. Hard to call that anecdotal.
> 
> Once, when I grew up...
> 
> ...



Jesus christ my dude, you need to get out more.
.
.
.
On a more serious note, do you also live in good old glorious Nippon? You don’t sound like a native so I’m wondering.


----------



## kuwanger (Feb 19, 2019)

notimp said:


> To google:
> Japanese word for sleeping at work: inemuri
> Japanese word for dying from overworking: karoshi



Personally, my favorite example is otsukare.


----------



## Deleted User (Feb 19, 2019)

I think they should encourage finishing work sooner and spending time with family.


----------



## notimp (Feb 20, 2019)

radicalwookie said:


> Jesus christ my dude, you need to get out more.
> .
> .
> .
> On a more serious note, do you also live in good old glorious Nippon? You don’t sound like a native so I’m wondering.


Attack ad hominem. 
I'm just writing fast, and am not opposed taking on/confronting more radical standpoints, simply because I dont like social media culture of ignoring them, and those people then being more siloed as a result.

If it was my last paragraph that triggered your response, that was tame trolling - why this should have to be followed up with personal attacks, escapes me.

Also no - I'm not living in japan, guess you took your 1:194 chance to figure that out, BASED ON THE WAY I SOUNDED.

Not angry - just miffed, that any effort you put into actually engaging with some more obscure opinions, gets struck down by yet another person thinking, that "lol, dude, are you even japanese" is a worthwhile response in a debate.

edit: Just noticed, that I have a japanese flag beneath by avatar. Now that part becomes more understandable..

Now why exactly do you think I should get out more? Hate those open motive derailment patterns. Hate them with a passion. Even if you confront them, the only thing that you get in return is another "Lol dude".


----------



## Ericthegreat (Feb 20, 2019)

radicalwookie said:


> Not a chance.
> 
> 
> Why Are all westerners so orientalistic, thinking every move involves some zen shit mystic sense of honor or whatever?
> ...


Oh yea because all cultures and people think the same in first world countries right? Then how do you explain the over 700,000 people who dont leave their homes? (japan is is very small population country)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-33362387 <-- read this.

There are a myriad of reasons people commit suicide, but japans is different, and although it is changing, japans history does change the reasoning for many.


----------



## radicalwookie (Feb 20, 2019)

notimp said:


> Attack ad hominem.
> I'm just writing fast, and am not opposed taking on/confronting more radical standpoints, simply because I dont like social media culture of ignoring them, and those people then being more siloed as a result.
> 
> If it was my last paragraph that triggered your response, that was tame trolling - why this should have to be followed up with personal attacks, escapes me.
> ...


You are one passive aggressive dude arent you?
I just thought you live in Japan because of your “extensive knowledge” and strong opinions. I legit wondered, theres no need to go nuke mode on me...



Ericthegreat said:


> Oh yea because all cultures and people think the same in first world countries right? Then how do you explain the over 700,000 people who dont leave their homes? (japan is is very small population country)
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-33362387 <-- read this.
> 
> There are a myriad of reasons people commit suicide, but japans is different, and although it is changing, japans history does change the reasoning for many.


I lived in Japan for 20 years, I still live there temporarily during summer and autumn.
What I was saying was based on experience, observation and local news.

Not all cultures think the same but they still are human. Stress, lack of free time, lack of goals, love life etc has a big impact no matter the culture.
Japan is a small population country? I hope you are kidding. 128 million people is not a small population....


----------



## RedBlueGreen (Feb 20, 2019)

Paolosworld said:


> *insert horrible joke about gay people here*


They were gonna legalize gay marriage, BUTT FUCK IT!


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Feb 20, 2019)

DKB said:


> Might get some hate for this, but the motherfuckers ain't breeding. If they're not breeding, and people also want to be gay as well, well, the government is going to go into panic mode.
> 
> Which, this seems like why they banned it.
> 
> ..Not sure actually why but I feel like this may be one of the reasons.


Well, it's true that the native population of Japan is more or less going extinct because they don't procreate to bring new Japanese babies to life.

There are also the Ainu population in Japan, Ainu people are half-Japanese and half-European. I suppose you can call them "Euranese" to shorten it.







She was beautiful.

A country that cherishes its identity, people, culture and values might not exist in the future or as we know it.


----------



## CallmeBerto (Feb 20, 2019)

@Saiyan Lusitano I probably won't, due to the fact they are not reproducing at replacement levels.

It is currently at 1.42 when it needs to be at 2.1


----------



## notimp (Feb 20, 2019)

radicalwookie said:


> You are one passive aggressive dude arent you?


Thats a language I can deal with. Everythings forgiven.  Liked your prior input in this thread. Cheers.


----------



## radicalwookie (Feb 20, 2019)

notimp said:


> Thats a language I can deal with. Everythings forgiven.  Liked your prior input in this thread. Cheers.


You are one odd lad, almost as much as myself haha. Cheers mate


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Feb 20, 2019)

Panzerfaust said:


> How I like that simple logic by people, who mean, that accepting gay marriage / propaganda means progression...maybe it's just a western thing...b4 you attaking me for my opinion: i dont care  you can feel superior or whatever you think to be and beeing super duper progressive...just stop dictating your anti natural "progressive opinion" to others...same poison as bringing your "democracy" to other countries.



Well, with democracy it means that almost anyone from X country is eligible to vote even if he/she is completely clueless and votes on the politician X, Y or Z because he finds her pretty or what have you. God bless democracy, what would we be without it, eh, Panzerfaust. 

On a serious note, did you know that one of the founding fathers who created the EU organization was a "Euranese" like the Ainus? He's commonly known as Richard Kalergi (short name) but his full name was actually _Richard Nikolaus Eijiro, Count of Coudenhove-Kalergi_.

I suppose that in this case it's _progressive_ to think of miscegenation as progressive because a group of people end up mixed while those who want to remain pure as their ancestors were, may be labeled racist for not getting into the melting pot. I'd call it a preference for each their own but hey, how dare I make my own choices.


----------



## coolfuze (Feb 21, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Then why pick on the gays, or anybody for that matter? Same-sex couples also do raise children sometimes.


Yeah but they don't produce them and guys can't get periods


----------



## Lacius (Feb 21, 2019)

coolfuze said:


> Yeah but they don't produce them and guys can't get periods


Neither do infertile couples, elderly couples, nor couples who just decide they don't want kids. So, as I've stated several times, why aren't people trying to make those marriages illegal?


----------



## RaptorDMG (Feb 21, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Neither do infertile couples, elderly couples, nor couples who just decide they don't want kids. So, as I've stated several times, why aren't people trying to make those marriages illegal?


Probably because male + female = kids (with a few exceptions) and (fe)male + (fe)male never makes kids


----------



## Lacius (Feb 21, 2019)

RaptorDMG said:


> Probably because male + female = kids (with a few exceptions) and (fe)male + (fe)male never makes kids



Male + elderly female ≠ kids
Infertile male + female ≠ kids
Male + infertile female ≠ kids
Male + female who don't want kids ≠ kids
To be consistent, you can't be against legal same-sex marriage without also being against the above marriages, unless you're being disingenuous and there's another reason.


----------



## kuwanger (Feb 21, 2019)

RaptorDMG said:


> Probably because male + female = kids (with a few exceptions) and (fe)male + (fe)male never makes kids



1 in 4 men, 1 in 7 women in Japan still unmarried at age 50: report  So, uh, yea...  Of course you can have kids without a spouse, but at least supposedly that's uncommon--not sure how true it is versus just how many kids are dumped in orphanages to avoid the "shame" and therefore uncounted (or if it's the other way around). :/


----------



## RaptorDMG (Feb 21, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Male + elderly female ≠ kids
> Infertile male + female ≠ kids
> Male + infertile female ≠ kids
> Male + female who don't want kids ≠ kids
> To be consistent, you can't be against legal same-sex marriage without also being against the above marriages, unless you're being disingenuous and there's another reason.



I really don't care about marriage but it's main function in the past was to provide a stable home environment to raise a family and what I'm saying is that male and females in most cases can produce a child (that excludes infertile women(but how would anyone know anyway) and elderly people who were able to reproduce in the past). 

A male + male or female + female can never reproduce on their own at any stage of their life.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 21, 2019)

RaptorDMG said:


> I really don't care about marriage but it's main function in the past was to provide a stable home environment to raise a family and what I'm saying is that male and females in most cases can produce a child (that excludes infertile women(but how would anyone know anyway) and elderly people who were able to reproduce in the past).
> 
> A male + male or female + female can never reproduce on their own at any stage of their life.



That was not the main function of marriage in the past.
To be consistent, you still can't advocate for making one kind of childless marriage illegal while not advocating for other kinds of childless marriage also being illegal. If you still think same-sex marriage should be illegal but other childless marriages should be legal, then you have another reason that you haven't stated.
Not all same-sex marriages are childless, regardless of what can or can't be biologically produced. Adopted children, children from surrogacy, children from previous relationships, etc. still require stable home environments.


----------



## dAVID_ (Feb 24, 2019)

DKB said:


> Might get some hate for this, but the motherfuckers ain't breeding. If they're not breeding, and people also want to be gay as well, well, the government is going to go into panic mode.
> 
> Which, this seems like why they banned it.
> 
> ..Not sure actually why but I feel like this may be one of the reasons.



Heterosexual people cannot be converted into homosexual people.
That doesn't work.
This argument would only work if a majority of the population was bisexual.


----------



## notimp (Apr 1, 2019)

...because times are a changing... 

Abe-led panel adopts new visa plan to accept 500,000 low-skilled laborers by 2025
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...plan-accept-500000-low-skilled-laborers-2025/

What would the european right say to such a plan I'm wondering..


----------



## kuwanger (Apr 3, 2019)

From notimp's link:
'
But Yoshio Kimura, chairman of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party’s special committee on issues related to foreign workers, said the number is not enough. Two years ago, the committee called for allowing more than 900,000 new foreign laborers be let in.
“Some 500,000 is not enough at all. Some people who don’t know about the reality (of the Japanese economy) must have just made up that figure,” Kimura told The Japan Times during an interview earlier this week.
“Over the next 100 years, Japan’s population will become something like 40 million (from the current 126 million). We definitely need foreign workers. We need young people who can support elderly people,” he said.
'

And people wonder why I think open borders are generally a good idea  Everything you see reported in Japan is pretty much the destiny of (every?) developed country(s).  Even China is risking the drive towards depopulation in the long term.  The funny thing is that Europe let in a lot of immigrants as temporary refugees who are supposed to return when their home country stabilizes (with a deadline of 3 years, IIRC), but long term they'd probably be better off with the people staying.

Assimilation, though, is admittedly a difficult thing to deal with en masse.  Social safety nets are difficult to fund even in the best of circumstances.  I do wonder, though, how you begin to qualify the damage that comes from chronic labor shortages.


----------



## regnad (Apr 3, 2019)

Twelve year resident of Japan here.

I've worked as a university teacher, and taught a zillion students. Like America, young people here are largely in favor of same sex marriage, or at least don't really care. Also like America young people don't vote. The political apathy among the young is much much worse here in fact. Also like America the government is set up in such a way that rural areas have a disproportionately powerful voice. Rural areas here are overwhelmingly elderly, and like anywhere in the world elderly people are conservative.

So there you are. If they had a referendum in Japan for same sex marriage and each person of legal voting age HAD to vote, and each vote counted equally, I imagine recognizing same sex marriage would win, although it would be close. But that's not the case. Some urban areas, such as Harajuku in Tokyo, recognize same sex marriage already.


----------



## anhminh (Apr 3, 2019)

Unban gay marriage and legalized rape and we solve all the problem.

Joke aside, the reason for it is because Japan's government are very oldschool. Most of them are coming from the golden age of Japan and so they thing that the old value are the reason Japan was great back then so the last thing they want is to change that. That and homophobia is pretty much the most long stayed thing in Asian culture. They are not actively hunting for gay or anything but no one want to accept it is a thing either. They cover such relationship in history by using brotherhood or loyalty or something similar like that. So yeah, legalized gay marriage won't change much how everyone see it and it may backslash on some politician since their supporter may hate the idea so no one would want to push it.


----------

