# [Rumour] PS4 Assembly Line Reportedly Sabotaged by Foxconn Interns



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

​The PS4's launch has definitely been a bitter-sweet one. On one hand, Sony is celebrating due to over one million sales in the first 24 hours, on the other, many of those consoles are reportedly dead on arrival. A recent post on the Foxconn forums sheds some light on what might've caused at least a portion of these issues.

_"The PS4's we assemble can be turned on at best."_ - says a "confession" posted openly on IGN forums. The interns in the Chinese Yantai plant allegedly damaged the systems on purpose in protest against terrible working conditions. The original post has since been deleted by the forum staff, however Neowin managed to grab a screenshot of it:
​


Spoiler








This is not the first time we hear of employee mistreatment in Foxconn facilities - the company went through phases of employee suicides, protests and now also alleged sabotages of production lines. Whether or not any of this is true remains to be seen, but it certainly puts Foxconn in a bad light once more.

 Source #1
 Source #2


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 19, 2013)

Stupid Sony 

they're worse than the mafia!


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## naxil (Nov 19, 2013)

lol i have hear that: some foxconn interns SPIT inside the ps4 parts... lol


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

This is actually reason for concern not only for future PS4 owners but also for those who purchase Apple's, Nintendo's or Microsoft's products, among many other. Foxconn is a major manufacturer and its employees are disgruntled, underpaid, tired and depressed. Such incidents will occur more and more often until Foxconn faces some serious sanctions _(which will probably never happen "because China")_.


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## Sicklyboy (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxconn is officially worse than Hitler. Thanks Obama.


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## Dork (Nov 19, 2013)

Daily reminder


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## GameWinner (Nov 19, 2013)

Dark S. said:


> Daily reminder


Is that Foxconn? Depressing building.


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## ZAFDeltaForce (Nov 19, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Stupid Sony
> 
> they're worse than the mafia!


I don't think Sony's really at fault here, they're merely customers.

The real monsters are probably the Foxconn management.


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 19, 2013)

Dark S. said:


> Daily reminder


 
"Hey ping! I'll give 20 bucks if you can jump past the safety nets!"


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## Tom Bombadildo (Nov 19, 2013)

GameWinner said:


> Is that Foxconn? Depressing building.


They had to put nets up because so many people were jumping off the roof


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Before we pull out pitchforks and torches, I'd like to remind everyone that so far this is an unconfirmed rumour, hence the use of words such as _"reportedly"_ and _"allegedly"_, although the story seems all-too-probable.

On one hand, the post could've been written by just about anyone who knows Chinese, on the other, the thread popped up in a section dedicated to Xi'an Technological University North Institute from which Foxconn allegedly hired students for so-called _"forced internship"_.

It's all very convenient considering the company's past incidents, but it could be even _too_ convenient. I guess time will tell _(or not)_ if there's a grain of truth in these allegations.


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## calmwaters (Nov 19, 2013)

I think I'd heard this somewhere before, but now here's positive proof. Y'know, Sony, I would love to put PS4's together for you, provided you pay me a decent sum of money. Living in the United States is expensive. (Just to throw this out there.) Um, Tom said "They had to put nets up because so many people were jumping off the roof  "and GameWinner likes this (or rather the post) I'm sorry for misinterpreting this, but, I feel concerned.

Edit: I've heard this rumour before, two times I think.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> I think I'd heard this somewhere before, but now here's positive proof. Y'know, Sony, I would love to put PS4's together for you, provided you pay me a decent sum of money. Living in the United States is expensive. (Just to throw this out there.) Um, Tom said "They had to put nets up because so many people were jumping off the roof  "and GameWinner likes this (or rather the post) I'm sorry for misinterpreting this, but, I feel concerned.
> 
> Edit: I've heard this rumour before, two times I think.


 
The rumour has been floating around for the past 24-or-so hours, but it wasn't reported here yet so I made a thread about it.

As for the whole _"putting things together"_ part of your post, this is the bitter cost of the luxury we live in - manufacturing in China is simply expotentially cheaper than anywhere else, especially when the company hires _interns_ en-masse - workers who aren't even paid for their jobs more often than not. Internship is indentured servitude for the sake of obtaining a degree, more or less.


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## grossaffe (Nov 19, 2013)

True or not, I'd like to see some kind of tariff placed on countries/companies with inhuman working conditions so that the costs these companies save are offset by the tariff making us look to manufacturers that are not exploitative.  Of course I don't know if it would actually work or just lead to corruption on the "regulation" side.


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 19, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> but, I feel concerned.


 
...Why? It's true, they had to put up nets because people were jumping as if they were in the olympics.


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## Forstride (Nov 19, 2013)

I personally think this is complete BS.  If this was posted and seen back in August, how come it's just appearing on news sites now?  Don't you think Sony and/or Foxconn would've looked into it, assuming it had any truth to it?  Also, the guy that posted about it on the IGN forums signed up the day that he posted the thread, so the legitimacy of this is about the same as some kid signing up on GBAtemp and saying he hacked the Wii U the same day.


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## calmwaters (Nov 19, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> ...Why? It's true, they had to put up nets because people were jumping as if they were in the olympics.


 
Well, ya, that's something to be concerned about. I mean, why were they jumping off anyway? There's got to be some link between the powerless PS4s and people jumping off the roof where the PS4s are assembled.


Foxi4 said:


> As for the whole _"putting things together"_ part of your post, this is the bitter cost of the luxury we live in - manufacturing in China is simply exponentially cheaper than anywhere else, especially when the company hires _interns_ en-masse - workers who aren't even paid for their jobs more often than not. Internship is indentured servitude for the sake of obtaining a degree, more or less.


So they're a bunch of cheapskates. They'd rather "hire" interns instead of a hard working person like me. And interns don't get paid anyway, so they're not even having to pay the otherwise extremely low wage that regular workers get. That's awful; I hope it really is a rumour.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Forstride said:


> I personally think this is complete BS. If this was posted and seen back in August, how come it's just appearing on news sites now? Don't you think Sony and/or Foxconn would've looked into it, assuming it had any truth to it? Also, the guy that posted about it on the IGN forums signed up the day that he posted the thread, so the legitimacy of this is about the same as some kid signing up on GBAtemp and saying he hacked the Wii U the same day.


That's true, but if you wished to remain anonymous, you probably wouldn't use your own account - you'd create an Alt, hence you would have no posts. Of course you very well may be right, it could be complete BS and I'm sure Sony will make a statement about it if prompted for a comment. Either way, we can definitely rule out _"super-secret covert operations by Microsoft/Nintendo"_ conspiracy theories right off the bat since both companies have their systems and accessories manufactured by Foxconn.


calmwaters said:


> So they're a bunch of cheapskates. They'd rather "hire" interns instead of a hard working person like me. And interns don't get paid anyway, so they're not even having to pay the otherwise extremely low wage that regular workers get. That's awful; I hope it really is a rumour.


The interns part likely isn't because that's how things work in China. The above rumour may be false and as Forstride mentions, there are good reasons for disbelief. As for being cheapskates, if those systems weren't manufactured in China, you'd be looking at a _completely _different pricetag on the final product.


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## GameWinner (Nov 19, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> Well, ya, that's something to be concerned about. I mean, why were they jumping off anyway? There's got to be some link between the powerless PS4s and people jumping off the roof where the PS4s are assembled.


Not just PS4s are built there by the way. Foxconn is also responsible for the iPad, iPod, PS3, Wii U, and much more.


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## Gahars (Nov 19, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> So they're a bunch of cheapskates.


 

Welcome to the world of business?

We could not produce all the affordable electronics we have access to right now without the cheap manufacturing that companies like Foxconn provide. I mean, take a look at this article; it's a difference of $4.2 billion, and that's just Apple.

Companies will turn to Foxconn and its ilk because they keep the costs low, customers will continue to buy the products because, at the end of the day, their number 1 focus is their own bottom line, and people will continue to work at these factories because, for all the shitty working conditions and horrible mistreatment, a job is a job. This happens whenever a country begins its industrial development (England and the US are certainly no strangers to it), and unfortunately there's no quick solution. Change and reform takes a long, long while to get off the ground.


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## rcazador (Nov 19, 2013)

For the people defending Sony, do note that, Foxconn's other products remain unaffected. So either this rumour is a hoax, or Sony's deal with Foxconn was so terrible/poorly negotiated that the interns were forced to turn against them. 

Either way it's hilarious watching the Sony fanboys and their 50% Faster GPUs using all that graphics power to drive the BLOD. They can't blame Sony even when they just got a $399 door stop.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Nov 19, 2013)

rcazador said:


> For the people defending Sony, do note that, Foxconn's other products remain unaffected. So either this rumour is a hoax, or Sony's deal with Foxconn was so terrible/poorly negotiated that the interns were forced to turn against them.
> 
> Either way it's hilarious watching the Sony fanboys and their 50% Faster GPUs using all that graphics power to drive the BLOD. They can't blame Sony even when they just got a $399 door stop.


 
Protip, Sony's deals has absolutely nothing to do with Foxconn's employees or their interns.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

rcazador said:


> For the people defending Sony, do note that, Foxconn's other products remain unaffected. So either this rumour is a hoax, or Sony's deal with Foxconn was so terrible/poorly negotiated that the interns were forced to turn against them.
> 
> Either way it's hilarious watching the Sony fanboys and their 50% Faster GPUs using all that graphics power to drive the BLOD. They can't blame Sony even when they just got a $399 door stop.


Mmm-yeah, no. Sony has no control whatsoever over what happens over at Foxconn, much like you don't have any control whatsoever whenever you order something made to order.

When you walk into a restaurant, order a soup, and the cook just happens to be in a foul mood, there's nothing you can do to stop him from spitting into your bowl, even though you're paying the same price as any other customer.

Don't bring in raving fanboyism into the discussion.


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 19, 2013)

rcazador said:


> Either way it's hilarious watching the *Sony fanboys*


 
Stopped reading.


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## calmwaters (Nov 19, 2013)

Gahars said:


> Welcome to the world of business?
> 
> We could not produce all the affordable electronics we have access to right now without the cheap manufacturing that companies like Foxconn provide. I mean, take a look at this article; it's a difference of $4.2 billion, and that's just Apple.
> 
> Companies will turn to Foxconn and its ilk because they keep the costs low, customers will continue to buy the products because, at the end of the day, their number 1 focus is their own bottom line, and people will continue to work at these factories because, for all the shitty working conditions and horrible mistreatment, a job is a job. This happens whenever a country begins its industrial development (England and the US are certainly no strangers to it), and unfortunately there's no quick solution. Change and reform takes a long, long while to get off the ground.


 
Rewrite; sorry, have to.

Ebenezer Scrooge? The prices for goods stayed the same, but he hoarded all the money, so much so that Bob Cratchitt could barely support his family. You say Foxconn keeps the prices low and the people will continue to work at these factories, even with the shitty working conditions. Bob continued to work for Scrooge even though he was a miser; he needed the job. But this story has a happy ending. Foxconn, who knows. Like you said, change takes a while to happen.


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## DSGamer64 (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> The rumour has been floating around for the past 24-or-so hours, but it wasn't reported here yet so I made a thread about it.
> 
> As for the whole _"putting things together"_ part of your post, this is the bitter cost of the luxury we live in - manufacturing in China is simply expotentially cheaper than anywhere else, especially when the company hires _interns_ en-masse - workers who aren't even paid for their jobs more often than not. Internship is indentured servitude for the sake of obtaining a degree, more or less.


 

Question, why the fuck doesn't Sony just use robotic assembly lines? Foxconn should have access to that kind of technology as other forms of manufacturing and assembly are capable of doing it. It's cheaper in the long term, the work is more accurate too and you aren't forcing workers to do menial jobs for shit wages.


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## Gahars (Nov 19, 2013)

calmwaters said:


> (I'm misreading this post and article.) So... Apple is dependent on that extra 4 billion dollars for their survival? The meatpackers in Chicago had the worst job conditions ever and they were getting paid a pretty dismal rate for it. It was only when Sinclair Lewis published The Jungle that the conditions changed and a minimum wage was established. And a minimum age was established too. Maybe this'll happen to China someday.


 

A) I'm not sure if anyone's told you this, but $4 billion dollars is hardly chump change.
B) Companies are designed to earn the maximum amount of money possible. If you aim only to earn "just enough" then you are running your company poorly, you will be unable to expand, and you will be routed by your competitors in no time flat. I'm not advocating for companies to be evil or whatever, but at the end of the day, they're businesses, not charities.
C) You're thinking of Upton Sinclair. 
D) The Jungle prompted reform in sanitation standards and just about nothing else. The minimum wage wasn't established until FDR's administration, and strict regulations on working conditions (like laws banning child labor) didn't come about until the 20s and 30s.
E) It will happen to China; this is what happens to pretty much all industrial countries. The US' industrial revolution began in the 1800s, and real standards weren't established until the 1900s. Unfortunately, it's a long, drawn out process, and once China starts setting proper standards, everyone will move on to the next rising industrial nation. 

Don't get me wrong, Foxconn is all around awful; it's just that this sort of awful is nothing new.


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## Psionic Roshambo (Nov 19, 2013)

DSGamer64 said:


> Question, why the fuck doesn't Sony just use robotic assembly lines? Foxconn should have access to that kind of technology as other forms of manufacturing and assembly are capable of doing it. It's cheaper in the long term, the work is more accurate too and you aren't forcing workers to do menial jobs for shit wages.


 

A robot would be insanely expensive compared to what your average factory worker makes in China. Probably 20+ years salary, not including maintenance on the robot.

In other words they got the cheapest robot you can get.... (at least that is how they are treated.) 

But there are other factories in China where they make the conditions at Foxconn look like a vacation get away.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/27/chinese-labor-camp-worker_n_2370216.html

The guy was imprisoned for pretty much nothing, but at least he was "reeducated"...


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## hhs (Nov 19, 2013)

It's clearly symptomatic of a greater issue regarding Chinese labor and trade.

Sony should reconsider doing business with a company that puts out damaged products just because it looks initially cheaper when it'll have to replace units at cost down the road. Paying workers and giving them better standards will seemingly cost more up front but longitudinally reduce unforeseen/unpredictable expenditures down the road.

Unethical business practices should be punished and seeing as how the Chinese state won't do it and its trading partners don't or won't apply pressure, it's up to the consumers to financially punish those who do business with antisocial enterprises until they cease to be appealing.


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## urbanman2004 (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxconn sucks. Isn't there another firm where these tech companies can get to products assembled at?


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## Pedeadstrian (Nov 19, 2013)

Dear Foxconn workers,

I know your situation is sad and junk, but that's no reason to break what ended up being the PS4 I won. I wanna sell that piece of junk, yo. Next time you feel like breaking something to send a message, why not be like the mobsters and make it a thumb or a neck?


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## shakirmoledina (Nov 19, 2013)

interns, that's the story of their life


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## Amber Lamps (Nov 19, 2013)

Good ol' take pride in your work eh?  Sure beats the American ethic of taking pride in your work.  Things like this can happen when cheaping out on labor to a communist land.

At any rate, I'm returning my PS4s.  No idea where they were made, don't care!


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## Nathan Drake (Nov 19, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> Good ol' take pride in your work eh? Sure beats the American ethic of taking pride in your work. Things like this can happen when cheaping out on labor to a communist land.
> 
> At any rate, I'm returning my PS4s. No idea where they were made, don't care!


I wish your post was satire, but having seen you post before, I fear you're entirely serious. Two facts for you:
- Americans haven't taken pride in their ability to manufacture quality products for their own country since the big push during WWII that repaired the broken economy. The idea that Americans are quality creators stems back to ideas centuries old and people that haven't been relevant manufacturers for almost as long.
- Name a large company that sells a good, and odds are, they outsource to China. If it's a service, it's likely somewhere such as India. It's cheaper, easier, and it gives companies the ability to satisfy as many customers as possible.

As for mentioning your returning your PS4s, way to mention it out of context. You already mentioned in another thread that you're returning them because you prefer for PC for gaming. No need to make it sound as if this has any kind of bearing on the decision.


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## Bladexdsl (Nov 19, 2013)

man it really must suck to work for sony!


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## Amber Lamps (Nov 19, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> I wish your post was satire, but having seen you post before, I fear you're entirely serious. Two facts for you:
> - Americans haven't taken pride in their ability to manufacture quality products for their own country since the big push during WWII that repaired the broken economy. The idea that Americans are quality creators stems back to ideas centuries old and people that haven't been relevant manufacturers for almost as long.
> - Name a large company that sells a good, and odds are, they outsource to China. If it's a service, it's likely somewhere such as India. It's cheaper, easier, and it gives companies the ability to satisfy as many customers as possible.
> 
> As for mentioning your returning your PS4s, way to mention it out of context. You already mentioned in another thread that you're returning them because you prefer for PC for gaming. No need to make it sound as if this has any kind of bearing on the decision.


 
Commodore, Atari, Apple, Converse, AC/Delco Remy, Harley Davidson, to name a few.  Some in the past and some in the current times.  I was taught to take pride in American craftsmanship but those whom I end up getting employed to don't care so I guess we can blame the business and not the employee in this case.

But yeah I wasn't kidding, I am going to return the PS4s.  I couldn't flip em and they are of no use to me.


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## Nathan Drake (Nov 19, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> man it really must suck to work for sony!


It's working for Foxconn, not Sony. Sony sets up a contract with Foxconn that the company agrees is reasonable, and they then do what they do to meet the quota in order to get Sony the items. Foxconn is notorious for being piss poor in how they treat their employees though, and as was already mentioned, many, many big companies use Foxconn for manufacturing.


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## Bladexdsl (Nov 19, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> It's working for Foxconn, not Sony.


you don't see the guys on the wii-u assembly lines sabotaging them and their with Foxconn too.


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## Nathan Drake (Nov 19, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> you don't see the guys on the wii-u assembly lines sabotaging them and their with Foxconn too.


Why sabotage the sales of something that has done a fine job sabotaging itself?


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## Taleweaver (Nov 19, 2013)

So if your PS4 works perfectly, all the praise goes to sony. But if it fails, then foxconn is to blame?

No. Let's get a few things straight here: like most internationally shipped goods, electronics are cheap. Too cheap. And that's the thing about multinationals: for some reason, we allow them not to know or care about entire parts of the production process. They just draw the plans and tell other companies "look guys...we want to make this here device. Who of you can do this the cheapest?".

It's that mentality that sort of pushes companies like foxconn to have these sort of working conditions. It's not because their managers are spawns of the devil or created a company with the intention of doing evil...it's because they have no other choice if they want to keep their company running. If they _don't_ abuse their employees into terrible working conditions, sony will simply pick another manufacturer which lower costs.


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## Psionic Roshambo (Nov 19, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> - Name a large company that sells a good, and odds are, they outsource to China. If it's a service, it's likely somewhere such as India. It's cheaper, easier, and it gives companies the ability to satisfy as many customers as possible.


 

Intel.... Pretty large company sells a few billion dollars worth of goods a month and largely produces stuff made in the US.

They have one plant in Israel, one in Ireland and one in China. 

Nine plants in the US. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites


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## Mythrix (Nov 19, 2013)

Hey, maybe some of the student interns were collecting PS4 parts by removing a different part from each of the (broken) PS4s. Then when they get back home they can assemble their own PS4!

But nah, I'm sure Foxconn have incredibly strict rules in place to prevent stuff being taken home from the factories.


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## Pedeadstrian (Nov 19, 2013)

Mythrix said:


> Hey, maybe some of the student interns were collecting PS4 parts by removing a different part from each of the (broken) PS4s. Then when they get back home they can assemble their own PS4!
> 
> But nah, I'm sure Foxconn have incredibly strict rules in place to prevent stuff being taken home from the factories.


That's probably because that factory was their home all along. *insert M. Night Shamylan's name here*


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## ZAFDeltaForce (Nov 19, 2013)

DSGamer64 said:


> Question, why the fuck doesn't Sony just use robotic assembly lines? Foxconn should have access to that kind of technology as other forms of manufacturing and assembly are capable of doing it. It's cheaper in the long term, the work is more accurate too and you aren't forcing workers to do menial jobs for shit wages.


Yeah, too bad Sony needs to make PS4s *now*.

Also, even if Sony invests in robotic assembly lines now to reap on long term savings, they'd have to continue to manufacture PS4s 20 years into the future in order to reap those savings. And we're talking about highly specialized robotic assembly lines here, re-purposing them for other electronic manufacturing is too expensive and otherwise unfeasible.


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## chartube12 (Nov 19, 2013)

I am just going to leave this here


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't see why people assume that robotic assembly lines are _not_ used at Foxconn. Certain parts of the process simply require human supervision, not everything can be done by machines. If you think that beyond the Foxconn walls all you see are interns chained to the assembly line and holding soldering guns, you are sorely mistaken. Precise opeations are performed by machines, but delicate plastic parts assembly or quality control (sic) are done by hand.


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## Bladexdsl (Nov 19, 2013)

this is just GOLD poor poor sony


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## GameWinner (Nov 19, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> this is just GOLD poor poor sony


Did Sony kill your parents or something?


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## Sicklyboy (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't see why people assume that robotic assembly lines are _not_ used at Foxconn. Certain parts of the process simply require human supervision, not everything can be done by machines. If you think that beyond the Foxconn walls all you see are interns chained to the assembly line and holding soldering guns, you are sorely mistaken. Precise opeations are performed by machines, but delicate plastic parts assembly or quality control (sic) are done by hand.


 

"quality"


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Sic erat scriptum.


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 19, 2013)

chartube12 said:


> I am just going to leave this here


 
Please don't. It's already been discussed and really isn't that big of a problem. The problems they're facing literally affect a miniscule percentage of day one buyers.


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## Bladexdsl (Nov 19, 2013)

glad you guys get all the defective ps4 1st than when they finally get released here they'll all be good and fixed


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## Oshae93 (Nov 19, 2013)

Some people are asking why didnt the Foxconn workers mess with other products like the p4. Honestly i think it was a good opportunity to get their message that their being treated wrong out to the media. Honestly would as much people be in here chatting if this was the wii u? They skipped the sratch offs and went straight for the lottery.


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## Deleted User (Nov 19, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> They had to put nets up because so many people were jumping off the roof


Nets around factories in china is a common thing, don't be so judgemental of one company.


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## Duo8 (Nov 19, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> Why sabotage the sales of something that has done a fine job sabotaging itself?


 
What about 3DSes, iPhones, blah blah blah?


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

king_leo said:


> Nets around factories in china is a common thing, don't be so judgemental of one company.


Wat? The _only_ factories that I've heard of which _had_ to install suicide nets around them were Foxconn's, back then the issue was 17 suicides during the time when Foxconn was manufacturing iPhone's. Even Google fails to inform me about any other site that had to take such measures upon querying, so it's not a _"common practice"_ as you claim.



Duo8 said:


> What about 3DSes, iPhones, blah blah blah?


See above - 17 people killed themselves because they were sick and tired of assembling iPhones for extremely low wages.


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## Duo8 (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> See above - 17 people killed themselves because they were sick and tired of assembling iPhones for extremely low wages.


 
What about after that. They just suck it up and Deal with it?


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Duo8 said:


> What about after that. They just suck it up and Deal with it?


After that they went on strike, protested and whatnot. Foxconn assured that they will improve working conditions blah, blah, blah - fill in the gaps. It's an on-going problem, really.


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## Duo8 (Nov 19, 2013)

Unrelated, but there's a Chinese factory where they pay wages with *Choco-Pies.*
wut?


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## DinohScene (Nov 19, 2013)

Duo8 said:


> Unrelated, but there's a Chinese factory where they pay wages with *Choco-Pies.*
> wut?


 
If i'm not mistaken, choco-pies are banned in North-Korea as well.
It might be true that in some areas of China, choco-pies are worth more (on the black market) then actual currency.

Choco-pies are smuggeled into North-Korea and there are people there that pay hefty prices to obtain one.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Duo8 said:


> Unrelated, but there's a Chinese factory where they pay wages with *Choco-Pies.*
> wut?


It's not at all uncommon - employees may be paid wages in form of the stock that hasn't passed quality control, for example the _"Choco-pies"_ they wouldn't be able to ship anyways which are then used for bartering. It's also not uncommon that employees live practically in _"labour camps"_ for minor offenses near the sites themselves, their basic livelyhoods covered by the site in return for practically servitude. Food for thought.


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## DSGamer64 (Nov 19, 2013)

ZAFDeltaForce said:


> Yeah, too bad Sony needs to make PS4s *now*.
> 
> Also, even if Sony invests in robotic assembly lines now to reap on long term savings, they'd have to continue to manufacture PS4s 20 years into the future in order to reap those savings. And we're talking about highly specialized robotic assembly lines here, re-purposing them for other electronic manufacturing is too expensive and otherwise unfeasible.


 

Not really. The upfront costs would allow them to produce more in a shorter time span and have them as inventory. Also, setting up a robotic line doesn't mean it can't be changed later. Robot arms are modular pieces of equipment and all you have to do is rewrite the program and change the tools on it in order to do a different function. Most of the robots they would need would only cost around $250,000 each, they certainly don't need the giant ones manufacturing environments use for moving heavy parts.


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## Veho (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> 17 people killed themselves because they were sick and tired of assembling iPhones for extremely low wages.


Then again, one could argue that assembling iPhones for extremely low wages helps _prevent_ suicide. Let's not ascribe arbitrary motives for suicide to people we know nothing about. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-and-dell-investigating-the-foxconn-working-conditions-2010-5


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## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Veho said:


> Then again, one could argue that assembling iPhones for extremely low wages helps _prevent_ suicide. Let's not ascribe arbitrary motives for suicide to people we know nothing about.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-and-dell-investigating-the-foxconn-working-conditions-2010-5


I'm not an analyst nor am I a sweatshop worker, so I don't know the harsh reality - I'm merely leaving the articles here for users to read.


----------



## ForteGospel (Nov 19, 2013)

i am sorry but it is way too convenient that some days after the console got released and users complained, then suddenly a worker decides to go public and say he fucked up some consoles on purpose.

if i wanted to make a stand against bad working conditions i would not have waited till the console gets released and only then go public, i would do so a week before release just to screw with the sales.

also he would have to fuck up about 4K consoles according sony's numbers(IMO there are more dead consoles than what sony said).

this is just a PR move to blame a single worker instead of taking responsibility.


----------



## Tom Bombadildo (Nov 19, 2013)

ForteGospel said:


> i am sorry but it is way too convenient that some days after the console got released and users complained, then suddenly a worker decides to go public and say he fucked up some consoles on purpose.
> 
> if i wanted to make a stand against bad working conditions i would not have waited till the console gets released and only then go public, i would do so a week before release just to screw with the sales.
> 
> ...


 
>Implying it was only one worker


> "The PS4's _*we*_ assemble can be turned on at best." - says a "confession" posted openly on IGN forums._* The interns in the Chinese Yantai plant allegedly damaged the systems on purpose in protest against terrible working conditions.*_


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Nov 19, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> >Implying it was only one worker


 
I never understood that sentence though "could turn on at best"... doesn't that mean they work? Or would that be referring to something else.


----------



## Tom Bombadildo (Nov 19, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> I never understood that sentence though "could turn on at best"... doesn't that mean they work? Or would that be referring to something else.


 
The phrase isn't a fact, it's more of a hypothetical assumption. The workers who assemble it don't go and turn every single console on, that would be silly. The alleged sabotage would "at best" turn the consoles on, or at worst they would blow the fuck up.


----------



## ForteGospel (Nov 19, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> >Implying it was only one worker


>implaying you know Chinese


----------



## WhiteMaze (Nov 19, 2013)

Gahars said:


> B) Companies are designed to earn the *maximum* amount of money possible. If you aim only to earn "just enough" then you are running your company poorly, you will be unable to expand, and you will be routed by your competitors in no time flat. I'm not advocating for companies to be evil or whatever, but at the end of the day,* they're businesses, not charities.*


 
This hasn't been stressed enough yet.

And it applies to Microsoft, Apple, Nintendo, Sony, Sega, FoxConn, you name it.

A shame really...

Just be glad to the gods, we were not born in China, otherwise there would be a pretty strong chance, all of us would be soldering PS4 chips right now, instead of posting on a gaming forum with our lazy asses on a chair.


----------



## Tom Bombadildo (Nov 19, 2013)

ForteGospel said:


> >implaying you know Chinese


 
Oh please, fill us with your wisdom about the Chinese language! Please! Despite every source saying the same fucking thing including in the OP, they're obviously wrong! Because surely none of them speak Chinese like you!


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> I never understood that sentence though "could turn on at best"... doesn't that mean they work? Or would that be referring to something else.


_"Turn on at best"_ means that in the best-case scenario, the console would _"turn on"_ and that's about it.



ForteGospel said:


> i am sorry but it is way too convenient that some days after the console got released and users complained, then suddenly a worker decides to go public and say he fucked up some consoles on purpose.


The message was posted back in August and re-surfaced like a self-fulfilling prophecy now.


----------



## emmanu888 (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> _"Turn on at best"_ means that in the best-case scenario, the console would _"turn on"_ and that's about it.


 
Probably the consoles that are victims of the Blue Pulse of Death


----------



## Amber Lamps (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't see why people assume that robotic assembly lines are _not_ used at Foxconn. Certain parts of the process simply require human supervision, not everything can be done by machines. If you think that beyond the Foxconn walls all you see are interns chained to the assembly line and holding soldering guns, you are sorely mistaken. Precise opeations are performed by machines, but delicate plastic parts assembly or quality control (sic) are done by hand.


 
The SMD and through hole components are float soldered.  The larger solder joints, such as A/V out etc are hand soldered.


----------



## WhiteMaze (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't see why people assume that robotic assembly lines are _not_ used at Foxconn. Certain parts of the process simply require human supervision, not everything can be done by machines. If you think that beyond the Foxconn walls all you see are interns chained to the assembly line and holding soldering guns, you are sorely mistaken. Precise opeations are performed by machines, but delicate plastic parts assembly or quality control (sic) are done by hand.


 
The problem isn't whether a company uses robotic assembly lines or not. In fact, they most likely do.

The problem is the cheap labor and the near-hunger state that the employees work in, due to a monthly pay of pure misery, and the work hours being completely inhumane.

Be it doing robot work, or supervising THE robots.


----------



## Veho (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm merely leaving the articles here for users to read.


And casually stating conjecture as facts.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Veho said:


> And casually stating conjecture as facts.


I did no such thing.  You are correct, one _could_ argue that manufacturing devices is the only thing that keeps them away from complete povery. You could also argue that the inefficient assembly line practices _(standing at one post for extended periods of time rather than switching posts becoming monotonous, driving the worker nuts)_ in conjunction to verbal, physical and psychological abuse makes the workers perform poorly and complain. Those are all valid approaches to the problem that require the reader to look into before taking a side, but that's hardly my job - that's the job of the reader. You... master trole you...


----------



## DrOctapu (Nov 19, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Stupid Sony
> 
> they're worse than the mafia!


If you're buying anything with processors in it you're probably buying foxconn. The amount of manufacturing they do is ridiculous, avoiding them is nearly impossible.


----------



## Amber Lamps (Nov 19, 2013)

I preordered 3 of these.  As of today, all 3 are returned to their stores.  I like xbox 360 better at this point because it has the games I want to play.  There's really nothing I want on PS4 and Xbox One has Killer Instinct but I think I'm fine with Killer Instinct arcade games on Xbox1, KI gold on N64 flash cart, and KI on SNES.  KI on SNES is my favorite one because I spent the most time playing that one.

I may buy PS4 again later but I'll compare with Xbox One and what deals are available at the time.  But I barely have time to game since my studies take over most of the time I would be playing.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> I preordered 3 of these. As of today, all 3 are returned to their stores.


Considering the context of the article, you make it come across as if the three systems had factory defects so you returned them, but later on you talk about the game library. Can you confirm what was the cause of returning them to stores so that other readers aren't confused?


----------



## WhiteMaze (Nov 19, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> I preordered 3 of these. As of today, all 3 are returned to their stores. I like xbox 360 better at this point because it has the games I want to play. There's really nothing I want on PS4 and Xbox One has Killer Instinct but I think I'm fine with Killer Instinct arcade games on Xbox1, KI gold on N64 flash cart, and KI on SNES. KI on SNES is my favorite one because I spent the most time playing that one.
> 
> I may buy PS4 again later but I'll compare with Xbox One and what deals are available at the time. But I barely have time to game since my studies take over most of the time I would be playing.


 
Wait...you pre-ordered 3 PS4's all of them with defects? Holy crap.

Or am I getting this wrong?


----------



## Kouen Hasuki (Nov 19, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Stupid Sony
> 
> they're worse than the mafia!


 

I'm figuring you forgot to read the topic and sources  Sony did nothing wrong its Foxconn


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

WhiteMaze said:


> Wait...you pre-ordered 3 PS4's all of them with defects? Holy crap.
> 
> Or am I getting this wrong?


 
I'm confused myself, which is why I asked for a clarification. The context is _"broken PS4's"_ but the content is _"XBox One has games I like"_, so the statement can be understood both ways.


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 19, 2013)

If this were true, then it should once again bring concern to the working conditions for Foxconn. The fact that this kinda news continues to rise about them makes me greatly concerned as to why no one has stepped in. Hell, instead of improving, they put up suicide nets, that's disturbing on so many levels. Instead of improving, they just made it harder for workers to kill themselves and again it seems the government/all of the companies that work with them, are just turning a blind eye to this.


----------



## Psionic Roshambo (Nov 19, 2013)

Kouen Hasuki said:


> I'm figuring you forgot to read the topic and sources  Sony did nothing wrong its Foxconn


 

lol I don't know.... At some point wouldn't Sony be aware of the issues going on at Foxconn? They have been in the news quite a few times over the past couple of years what with all the suicides the mass suicide, unpaid labor disputes,  the "safety" nets and the list of complaints just goes on and on. 

I agree that Sony probably needed to find a company who could produce the sheer amount of systems they needed and Foxconn is probably one of a small group of companies could fill the order AND that Foxconn was probably the lowest bidder on the contract (that could fulfill it.) so in a way Sony may not have had a choice in the matter.   

I guess you can blame Sony partially for being greedy bastards but in the same breath you have to blame Apple, Nintendo, Microsoft and almost every other company that has dealings with China. Profit margins so good you would swear some one sold their soul for it...


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> If this were true, then it should once again bring concern to the working conditions for Foxconn. The fact that this kinda news continues to rise about them makes me greatly concerned as to why no one has stepped in. Hell, instead of improving, they put up suicide nets, that's disturbing on so many levels. Instead of improving, they just made it harder for workers to kill themselves and again it seems the government is just turning a blind eye to this.


 
That's not 100% true - they were forced to comply more strictly to China's legal regulations and they are inspected more often, so there were _some_ sanctions placed on them, just not severe enough to make them care _too much_ about improving the working conditions.


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> That's not 100% true - they were forced to comply more strictly to China's legal regulations and they are inspected more often, so there were _some_ sanctions placed on them, just not severe enough to make them care _too much_ about improving the working conditions.


 
That's kinda good, but what about all the companies that work with them? Hell even Nintendo seems to have turned a blind eye to what's happening. If anything they are just as responsible for these problems as Foxconn is. Sure they don't directly do anything, but the fact that they allow their products to be made under these conditions should be shamed.


----------



## Psionic Roshambo (Nov 19, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> If this were true, then it should once again bring concern to the working conditions for Foxconn. The fact that this kinda news continues to rise about them makes me greatly concerned as to why no one has stepped in. Hell, instead of improving, they put up suicide nets, that's disturbing on so many levels. Instead of improving, they just made it harder for workers to kill themselves and again it seems the government is just turning a blind eye to this.


 

In times past, you would have seen some sort of outrage and maybe a financial or shipping embargo. Maybe a stiff tariff on goods coming from that country so that goods made with paid labor could compete on at least an equal price. 

These days it seems like the corporations have paid off the politicians so much and bought so many elections that it seems we are pretty much endorsing slavery.

Ah well who cares as long as I can get a cheap TV, little Tojo is going to have to work 70 hours this week.


----------



## Amber Lamps (Nov 20, 2013)

I preordered 3 of these.  As of today, all 3 are returned to their stores.  I like xbox 360 better at this point because it has the games I want to play.  There's really nothing I want on PS4 and Xbox One has Killer Instinct but I think I'm fine with Killer Instinct arcade games on Xbox1, KI gold on N64 flash cart, and KI on SNES.  KI on SNES is my favorite one because I spent the most time playing that one.

I may buy PS4 again later but I'll compare with Xbox One and what


Foxi4 said:


> Considering the context of the article, you make it come across as if the three systems had factory defects so you returned them, but later on you talk about the game library. Can you confirm what was the cause of returning them to stores so that other readers aren't confused?


 
I didn't open any of them.  I canceled one before I got it and the other two were factory sealed when they departed from my grasp.

I don't miss em either.  I have other games and stuff I'm working on that would leave no time to play on ps4.

But at least I didn't find out if some spoiled foxconn worker whom HAS A JOB to support himself messed up a system that I bought.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> I didn't open any of them. I canceled one before I got it and the other two were factory sealed when they departed from my grasp.


That explains a lot.


> But at least I didn't find out if some spoiled foxconn worker whom HAS A JOB to support himself messed up a system that I bought.


Not sure if I'd use the word _"spoiled"_ in reference to someone who practically works in a legal sweatshop or the word _"job"_ in reference to an intern who either gets paid nothing or next to nothing and only works for a limited time during/right after his/her studies.


----------



## WhiteMaze (Nov 20, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> I preordered 3 of these. As of today, all 3 are returned to their stores. I like xbox 360 better at this point because it has the games I want to play. There's really nothing I want on PS4 and Xbox One has Killer Instinct but I think I'm fine with Killer Instinct arcade games on Xbox1, KI gold on N64 flash cart, and KI on SNES. KI on SNES is my favorite one because I spent the most time playing that one.
> 
> I may buy PS4 again later but I'll compare with Xbox One and what
> 
> ...


 
Okay that clarifies things.

You would be pretty un-freaking-lucky to get 3 damaged systems.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Nov 20, 2013)

Kouen Hasuki said:


> I'm figuring you forgot to read the topic and sources  Sony did nothing wrong its Foxconn





DrOctapu said:


> If you're buying anything with processors in it you're probably buying foxconn. The amount of manufacturing they do is ridiculous, avoiding them is nearly impossible.


im figuring you guys haven't been here long have you?


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> im figuring you haven't been here long have you?


 
_"Sony is worse than a genetically-engineered fusion of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein and Justin Bieber. "_ ~Your Average GBATemp Member


----------



## trumpet-205 (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxconn builds more than just PS4, even Wii, Wii U, and 3DS all come from Foxconn assembly line.


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## Ergo (Nov 20, 2013)

I got 3* and 2 of them were broken--1 died after the fw update, and the other wouldn't output a picture--the third one has been fine for the past 24-hours or so but, of course, I am terribly paranoid about it going south, too.

(Anecdotal evidence suggests I'm not alone on this sorry ship.)

*All for personal use--was just trying to get one that actually functioned


----------



## bezem (Nov 20, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> ....what about all the companies that work with them? Hell even Nintendo seems to have turned a blind eye to what's happening. If anything they are just as responsible for these problems as Foxconn is. Sure they don't directly do anything, but the fact that they allow their products to be made under these conditions should be shamed.


The problem lies with China, not the companies.  Companies just benefit from the inexpensive labor that China's poor labor practices allow and pass the savings on to us.  If you're truly outraged, you might want to throw out anything that resembles technology, as our purchases are what ultimately encourage and support these practices.


Psionic Roshambo said:


> In times past, you would have seen some sort of outrage and maybe a financial or shipping embargo. Maybe a stiff tariff on goods coming from that country so that goods made with paid labor could compete on at least an equal price.
> 
> These days it seems like the corporations have paid off the politicians so much and bought so many elections that it seems we are pretty much endorsing slavery.
> 
> Ah well who cares as long as I can get a cheap TV, little Tojo is going to have to work 70 hours this week.


Ding Ding Ding.  We as consumers have grown complacent; we don't mind how much corruption and hardship goes in to manufacturing so long as we get that fancy new iPhone every six months.


Amber Lamps said:


> But at least I didn't find out if some spoiled foxconn worker whom HAS A JOB to support himself messed up a system that I bought.


 
That's just ignorant right there.  Wow.  As many have already pointed out, working in China is not the same as working in the US or elsewhere in the world.  Imagine living at work just so you can work longer; being fed gruel and going to school at work.  Not something I would envy.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

Ergo said:


> I got 3* and 2 of them were broken--1 died after the fw update, and the other wouldn't output a picture--the third one has been fine for the past 24-hours or so but, of course, I am terribly paranoid about it going south, too.
> 
> (Anecdotal evidence suggests I'm not alone on this sorry ship.)
> 
> *All for personal use--was just trying to get one that actually functioned


 
That's _hella unlucky_, I wonder what went wrong with the firmware update...


----------



## Amber Lamps (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> That explains a lot.
> Not sure if I'd use the word _"spoiled"_ in reference to someone who practically works in a legal sweatshop or the word _"job"_ in reference to an intern who either gets paid nothing or next to nothing and only works for a limited time during/right after his/her studies.


 
In the USA we are taught at a young age to take pride in our work.  Anyone whom doesn't doesn't really have my full respect.  I mean, my family came from Ireland and we were opressed as hell in Ireland, France, and when we hit US soil and we always kept to our word and proud of hard work even if we earned less than a half ripe potato in the fields of Ireland under British opression.


----------



## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> Protip, Sony's deals has absolutely nothing to do with Foxconn's employees or their interns.


Right, so how come Apple and all the other Foxconn clients have NO issues? Explain that. It's obvious Sony tried to push for even lower costs for their $399 price. So when they push hard to cut costs, Foxconn leans even more on its bonded labourers. Each company has a different contract with Foxconn with different Human rights standards and expectations.
Apple uses the same Foxconn bonded labour but limits exploitation at least a little but conducting surveys and publishing reports. They do this to maintain their social standing and corporate goodwill. More than can be said for Sony.

Edit: that's a great user name, I respect it as a Tolkien fan.


----------



## eyecat14 (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> This is actually reason for concern not only for future PS4 owners but also for those who purchase Apple's, Nintendo's or Microsoft's products, among many other. Foxconn is a major manufacturer and its employees are disgruntled, underpaid, tired and depressed. Such incidents will occur more and more often until Foxconn faces some serious sanctions _(which will probably never happen "because China")_.


 
Break ALL the consoles!


----------



## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Mmm-yeah, no. Sony has no control whatsoever over what happens over at Foxconn, much like you don't have any control whatsoever whenever you order something made to order.
> 
> When you walk into a restaurant, order a soup, and the cook just happens to be in a foul mood, there's nothing you can do to stop him from spitting into your bowl, even though you're paying the same price as any other customer.
> 
> Don't bring in raving fanboyism into the discussion.


Look at the pot calling the kettle black. You ate the fanboy here. If the chef is annoyed he spits in everything he makes. At the time these ps4s were made they made millions of iPhone and iPads and other devices. But the chef only chose to Spit on Sony. I can only imagine Sony pushed the chef too far.
Sure they have control none of Foxconn's other contractors suffer such poor quality.
Or maybe Sony ****ed the design of it. But again that would be impossible for a fanboy to imagine.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Nov 20, 2013)

rcazador said:


> Look at the pot calling the kettle black. You ate the fanboy here. If the chef is annoyed he spits in everything he makes. At the time these ps4s were made they made millions of iPhone and iPads and other devices. But the chef only chose to Spit on Sony. I can only imagine Sony pushed the chef too far.
> Sure they have control none of Foxconn's other contractors suffer such poor quality.
> Or maybe Sony ****ed the design of it. But again that would be impossible for a fanboy to imagine.


 
You know, when someone throws the word fanboy around, it makes them look less serious, and usually then end up being the "fanboy" themselves.


----------



## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

It's funny how these fanboys rant but cannot actually explain what went wrong.
Can they cite another example or popular device with so many failures on Day One?
The only possible explanations are that Sony messed up the design or Foxconn messed up the assembly.
Face the facts people.

When Microsoft messed up with the RROD they admitted it and gave a 3 year free replacement guarantee. Sony should man up and reveal the real problem. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

rcazador said:


> Look at the pot calling the kettle black. You ate the fanboy here. If the chef is annoyed he spits in everything he makes. At the time these ps4s were made they made millions of iPhone and iPads and other devices. But the chef only chose to Spit on Sony. I can only imagine Sony pushed the chef too far.
> Sure they have control none of Foxconn's other contractors suffer such poor quality.
> Or maybe Sony ****ed the design of it. But again that would be impossible for a fanboy to imagine.


It's like you haven't read the article. The intern says it clearly, but I'll guide you through it. I quote:


> _"Since Foxconn *(Meaning "Not Sony")* are not treating us well, we will not treat the PS4 console well. The PS4 console we assemble can be turned on at best *(Meaning "The design is fine, we're just purposely assembling it in a poor way")*."_


I inserted the bolded parts in order to _"translate English into English"_.


rcazador said:


> Can they cite another example or popular device with so many failures on Day One?


...you mean 0.4%?

Like... every electronic device in history?


rcazador said:


> When Microsoft messed up with the RROD they admitted it and gave a 3 year free replacement guarantee. Sony should man up and reveal the real problem. That's all I'm saying.


But... they have... 


rcazador said:


> It's funny how these fanboys rant but cannot actually explain what went wrong.


What do you mean by _"explain"?_ The explaination is written in the OP, the source and a number of posts.


> The only possible explanations are that Sony messed up the design or Foxconn messed up the assembly.


According to the rumour discussed, it's the latter.


> Face the facts people.


We have.


> When Microsoft messed up with the RROD they admitted it and gave a 3 year free replacement guarantee.


It's been what, 5 days? Investigating a problem thoroughly takes a bit longer than that.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Nov 20, 2013)

rcazador said:


> It's funny how these fanboys rant but cannot actually explain what went wrong.
> Can they cite another example or popular device with so many failures on Day One?
> The only possible explanations are that Sony messed up the design or Foxconn messed up the assembly.
> Face the facts people.
> ...


 
You seem to know more about this than anyone, so what's the problem? Do you know? Do you have facts or anything other than "SONY IS WORSE THAN THE MAFIA" to base your post on?

So many day one failures? You do realize that these problems are affecting a small percentage of owners, right? You say "so many failures", but yet you don't really know the number. Which brings us to what me and Foxi discussed. If someone is happy with their product and it's working, they don't tend to speak up about it. Only the people that are affected by it speak up. If the people who are happy spoke up, there would be a lot less articles. And not to mention, one person's complaint gets posted on a bunch of websites, and all of a sudden it looks like 15 people even though it's just one person.

As for citing day one problems? Well you just said it yourself, the Xbox 360. Was Microsoft treating workers bad back then too? What about all the problems the PS3 had? Sony treating people bad? And all the scratches the 3DS was getting, Nintendo treating workers bad?

Maybe you should actually look up facts. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo have both stepped up their game when it comes to Foxconn, even Apple has. All of them have demanded better working conditions. That's all they can do. They can't control another company. Yeah they could take their business elsewhere, but the fact of the matter is that it will cost more, thus making the consumer pay more, and in turn those companies not making much money because they're so expensive.


----------



## zachtheninja (Nov 20, 2013)

Gahars said:


> This happens whenever a country begins its industrial development (England and the US are certainly no strangers to it), and unfortunately there's no quick solution. Change and reform takes a long, long while to get off the ground.


I agree with this. As unfortunate as it is, things have to get worse before people are bothered enough to push for better conditions. (And I don't mean protest nicely.)
The problems come when a country, (namely America) looks at the conditions in a third world country and says "Oh, how horrible! Think of the children! We must give the staving people X item so they can be better off." when in reality, the only way for those people to be better off is for them to take a stand on their own. A true revolution must always come from the hearts and minds of those afflicted, else the problems and corruption will return when the "helpers" leave. The Chinese are living in horrible times, it's true. But, in order for their conditions to change, they have to change their leaders, and that will be a difficult thing for them to do.

(Edit: Sorry, a little off topic, I just needed to say that before I logged off for the night.)


----------



## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> It's like you haven't read the article. The intern says it clearly, but I'll guide you through it. I quote:
> 
> I inserted the bolded parts in order to _"translate English into English"_.
> 
> ...



About the intern you still haven't answered why they singled out Sony for their revenge. If they wanted attention and improved conditions they should have hit Foxconn's crown jewel, the iPhone. But they didn't. Each foxconn facility focuses on a different type of product so I assume that the one dealing with the Sony PS4. First justify why they picked Sony and not apple who once an even greater oppressor.

Don't try that 0.4% is nothing crap. In 1986 Motorola introduced Six Sigma, it's a Global industry standard for manufacturing. It allows 2 defects in 1 million units. Every major company strives towards this goal. Of course Sony doesn't have to care it's fanboys will defend any thing it throws out.
 In the meantime give me two concrete examples of such a disastrous Opening day. Don't make general statements, give actual proof.

Wow so I can preorder and pay $399 to get a blue light. Then 5 days later Sony will expect me to fix their crap. Whatever happened to consumer rights? They needed up, they should fix it. And they should compensate me for the 5 day delay.


You think you're so smart saying it only took 5 days. WOW so I can shell out $400 and get a completely untested product. Apparently Sony has never heard of quality assurance or checking. Fortunately it's fanboys haven't either. They designed it, they had reviewers complain of the same problem days before the release. And it STILL took them 5 Days. Pure Genius Sony, Pure Genius.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

I'm not even going to bother any further, the average DOA rate in the electronics sector is around 2% - the more sold units Day 1 the bigger the tempest in a teacup.


----------



## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> You seem to know more about this than anyone, so what's the problem? Do you know? Do you have facts or anything other than "SONY IS WORSE THAN THE MAFIA" to base your post on?
> 
> So many day one failures? You do realize that these problems are affecting a small percentage of owners, right? You say "so many failures", but yet you don't really know the number. Which brings us to what me and Foxi discussed. If someone is happy with their product and it's working, they don't tend to speak up about it. Only the people that are affected by it speak up. If the people who are happy spoke up, there would be a lot less articles. And not to mention, one person's complaint gets posted on a bunch of websites, and all of a sudden it looks like 15 people even though it's just one person.
> 
> ...



First off stop with the "few defects are usual" argument. This didn't happen with the PS3 nor with the X360. This is quite unique. 

As for the Xbox error Microsoft admitted to a design fault and offered replacements. Sony should also offer replacements instead of some DIY fix(posted by Foxi4).
Is Sony the worst, I don't know. But they must have done something wrong to trigger this. Ask these years foxconn people were oppressed and at worst they chose suicide. Now they've gone a step further this usually happens for a reason. That they have chosen to target Sony implies some error on Sony's part.
These workers are not Microsoft fanboys with some silly grudge against Sony. If they acted, it was for a reason.



Foxi4 said:


> I'm not even going to bother any further, the average DOA rate in the electronics sector is around 2% - the more sold units Day 1 the bigger the tempest in a teacup.


You don't bother cause you don't have any facts. If 2% was normal, why is on every major news site. I'm not talking about xbox sites. Sites that enjoy bashing three xbox and Microsoft are also covering this. And I have yet to hear from you another 2 examples of  similarly botched launches. With these so called normal 2% defect rates.


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 20, 2013)

rcazador said:


> First off stop with the "few defects are usual" argument. This didn't happen with the PS3 nor with the X360.


 what, launch hardware problems? yes they did. It only just so happens that this time supposedly (because there's no proof) that somebody is being a dick.



> As for the Xbox error Microsoft admitted to a design fault and offered replacements. Sony should also offer replacements instead of some DIY fix(posted by Foxi4).
> Is Sony the worst, I don't know. But they must have done something wrong to trigger this. Ask these years foxconn people were oppressed and at worst they chose suicide. Now they've gone a step further this usually happens for a reason. That they have chosen to target Sony implies some error on Sony's part.
> These workers are not Microsoft fanboys with some silly grudge against Sony. If they acted, it was for a reason.


 
Sony is offering replacements. Are you that stupid? The DIY fix is for people who don't want to wait sending it in to Sony. And no, they didn't do anything to Foxconn. They just give them the parts and pay the company. Just like Apple, Microsoft, Nintendo, Samsung and every other company.

Yeah Foxconn workers are depressed and pissed off. But guess what, that's Foxconn's problem, not Sony's. As I stated, a bunch of big name companies already told Foxconn to step their game up, which they did, giving them more pay, but they're still working hard. If you think Foxconn should change? Then go start a shitty petition on the laughable change.org and complain to Foxconn and the Chinese government.

And no, they're not Microsoft Fanboys, but guess what, you're sounding like one.



rcazador said:


> You don't bother cause you don't have any facts. If 2% was normal, why is on every major news site. I'm not talking about xbox sites. Sites that enjoy bashing three xbox and Microsoft are also covering this. And I have yet to hear from you another 2 examples of similarly botched launches. With these so called normal 2% defect rates.


 

Like I said. One person posts an article about it, and it spreads, making one person's complaint sound like 15 complaints. It's what media outlets do. They find news articles, and they spread the word. And sites like Kotaku fabricate facts and blow it out proportion just so they can get hits.


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## Gahars (Nov 20, 2013)

Ruseler The Bamboozler said:
			
		

> First off stop with the "few defects are usual" argument. This didn't happen with the PS3 nor with the X360. This is quite unique.


 

ITT revisionist history


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## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> what, launch hardware problems? yes they did. It only just so happens that this time supposedly (because there's no proof) that somebody is being a dick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the record the ps2 was my first console and I still enjoy playing Prince of Persia Sands of Time (i know it's old, but it's epic) on it. That said we clearly cannot agree. So let's drop this argument. What I can't get my head around is if all the companies were equally bad, why did the foxconn workers choose Sony? Never mind that though, must have been random.


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## Ergo (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> That's _hella unlucky_, I wonder what went wrong with the firmware update...


 

This seems to be a pretty common problem among the busted PS4s, but the speculation I've read is that the HDDs are faulty and/or they're being killed by excessive heat and the fw itself isn't really the culprit, at least directly...but who the hell knows? Sony isn't saying 



rcazador said:


> When Microsoft messed up with the RROD they admitted it and gave a 3 year free replacement guarantee. Sony should man up and reveal the real problem. That's all I'm saying.


 

No, actually, they denied it at first, then denied the scope when it became obvious it was happening, then it finally became too much to ignore/deny and resulted in the billion-dollar write-off in order to ward off class actions (all of these steps took a minimum of 6-months to go through, if not longer)--please don't try rewrite very recent history, thanks.

(The only saving grace w/ MS--such as it is--is that they weren't dropping dead on day one, so there's that, uh, feather in their cap.)


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## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

rcazador said:


> You don't bother cause you don't have any facts. If 2% was normal, why is on every major news site. I'm not talking about xbox sites. Sites that enjoy bashing three xbox and Microsoft are also covering this. And I have yet to hear from you another 2 examples of similarly botched launches. With these so called normal 2% defect rates.


Ehh... I really am better than this, I shouldn't reply... but alright:
- PS2 "Disc Read Error" plague
- Atari Jaguar CD in general
- XBox Suicidal PSU to the point of being a fire hazard, 14 million power cords recalled
- XBox overheating, mostly affected the first revision of the system
- "No Reception" iPhone 4 controversy, also known as "You're holding the phone wrong"
- XBox 360 RROD
- PS3 YLOD
- Wii's Blue Slot of Death GPU meltdown, lesser known than the two above
- 3DS's Sucidal Screen Bumpers
- Exploding DELL laptop batteries
- XBox 360 disc drive carving into discs
- DS Lite and its suicidal hinge

Just a couple of defects that became world-famous very quickly and close to launch. There you go. Satisfied?


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Ehh... I really am better than this... but alright:
> - PS2 "Disc Read Error" plague
> - Atari Jaguar CD in general
> - XBox Suicidal PSU to the point of being a fire hazard, 14 million power cords recalled
> ...


 
Oddly enough, I don't recall there being any problems with the Super Nintendo/Genesis/N64/PS1. Was there any? I mean, back then there was no such thing as the internet so it was probably a lot harder to spread information...


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## GameWinner (Nov 20, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Oddly enough, I don't recall there being any problems with the Super Nintendo/Genesis/N64/PS1. Was there any? I mean, back then there was no such thing as the internet so it was probably a lot harder to spread information...


The PS1 had some disc read errors to the point where some people had to flip the PS1 upside down to get it to read. Just heard of the issue like 2 weeks ago and I'm still shocked people did that.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Oddly enough, I don't recall there being any problems with the Super Nintendo/Genesis/N64/PS1. Was there any? I mean, back then there was no such thing as the internet so it was probably a lot harder to spread information...


The NES's 72-pin connectors like to get bent, Master System's D-Pads literally fall out of the controller, Atari 5200's joysticks are suicidal, finding a working 32X is considered a mirracle (much like in the case of the Jaguar CD) etc. but due to the lack of widely available internet at the time, it's hard to find relevant information about launch issues - I'd have to do some investigating to say for sure. Those systems were less complex and with larger components, they weren't nearly as packed as contemporary ones nor did they produce nearly as much heat so they're considered sturdier.

*EDIT:* The disc issues on the PS1 were caused by burnt out laser assembly tracks - it's a matter of wer and tear, not a factory defect asfar as I know.

Speaking of factory defects, my first GBA had a screen so dim that it was barely playable, so I returned it and got a new one On both, the battery cover flap snapped after a couple battery swaps, but I'm not sure if those were widely-spread defects. Yes, I had a GBA almost at launch, Foxi4Nintendo.


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## GameWinner (Nov 20, 2013)

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...efective-playstation-4-units-immediately.aspx
Has this been posted yet?
I think it's thread worthy if not.


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## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Ehh... I really am better than this, I shouldn't reply... but alright:
> - PS2 "Disc Read Error" plague
> - Atari Jaguar CD in general
> - XBox Suicidal PSU to the point of being a fire hazard, 14 million power cords recalled
> ...


This is the proof I was looking for. Though I'm not sure of the details of all of these events some I do know and I concede that you are correct.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

GameWinner said:


> http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...efective-playstation-4-units-immediately.aspx
> Has this been posted yet?
> I think it's thread worthy if not.


Replacing damaged units no questions asked? Ban this sick communist filth. Sony officially worse than Kim Jong Un.


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## rcazador (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Replacing damaged units no questions asked? Ban this sick communist filth. Sony officially worse than Kim Jong Un.



Again I got my facts wrong, kinda of a Jekyll and Hyde moment there, Sony has this under control.


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## Kouen Hasuki (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> The NES's 72-pin connectors like to get bent, Master System's D-Pads literally fall out of the controller, Atari 5200's joysticks are suicidal, finding a working 32X is considered a mirracle (much like in the case of the Jaguar CD) etc. but due to the lack of widely available internet at the time, it's hard to find relevant information about launch issues - I'd have to do some investigating to say for sure. Those systems were less complex and with larger components, they weren't nearly as packed as contemporary ones nor did they produce nearly as much heat so they're considered sturdier.
> 
> *EDIT:* The disc issues on the PS1 were caused by burnt out laser assembly tracks - it's a matter of wer and tear, not a factory defect asfar as I know.
> 
> Speaking of factory defects, my first GBA had a screen so dim that it was barely playable, so I returned it and got a new one On both, the battery cover flap snapped after a couple battery swaps, but I'm not sure if those were widely-spread defects. Yes, I had a GBA almost at launch, Foxi4Nintendo.


 

Oddly growing up I never had the Controller issue, though through repeated use the power jack needed resoldering on


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## Veho (Nov 20, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I did no such thing.





Foxi4 said:


> 17 people killed themselves* because they were sick and tired of assembling iPhones for extremely low wages*.


That's a clear statement of fact, you sophist you.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2013)

Veho said:


> That's a clear statement of fact, you sophist you.


Guilty as charged, that was my assumption based on the circumstances.


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## Qtis (Nov 20, 2013)

GameWinner said:


> http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...efective-playstation-4-units-immediately.aspx
> Has this been posted yet?
> I think it's thread worthy if not.


 
Indeed especially the last paragraph is the key here:



> *Our Take*
> _Defective units are a fact of any mass market electronics launch, and having it fixed quickly is the second-best thing to not needing repair or replacement at all. If your retailer can’t help you with an immediate exchange, call Sony support and you should be up and running quickly._


 
(Not directed at GameWinner, just continuing the thread...)

Foxconn is and has been abysmal in regards to worker conditions. If you really wonder why this is a perfect time to piss into every product in a product line, it's just that. When was the last launch of an iPhone? A year ago in 2012? When was the last launch of a Sony home console? 2006. Sure the iPhone has a lot of publicity if there is a problem, but the next generation of consoles is an entirely new thing. Like it or not.

An I just have to point out here that if someone is really saying Foxi4 *and *ShadowSoldier are both pro-Sony and anti everyone else, I'd recommend reading the forum a bit more in different sections. Both have very good, fact-based opinions on many different subjects regardless of maker. If the only reasoning you can do is "It's all because of X, because I think so", is just as bad as saying "I won't believe you because those sites you listed are always pro something!".

Also a site anti-Microsoft writing about the PS4 launch? Who the hell wouldn't? If I had an own electronics related news site, I'd sure as hell write about a new generation console launch.

ps. The times have changed in many ways since previous console launches. Write something on Sony's/Microsoft's/Nintendo's Facebook page and the S*** is ready to hit the fan. Someone is bound to pick it up and take a screen cap before it's removed. End result? Publicity. Either good or bad.


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## WhiteMaze (Nov 20, 2013)

Qtis said:


> Indeed especially the last paragraph is the key here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Very nice post.

I have owned systems (both standard and portable ones) from every single gaming company. Sega, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, you name it. I've had PSP's, PS2's, Dreamcasts, Master Systems, Xboxs, NES's, GameCubes, DS's, Wii's, and a few more that aren't even tied to the big names.

I try to maintain a neutral position. I generally favor other companies "over" Sony, since I had the most fun with Non-Sony gaming devices.

However, that won't make me FanBoy over a company. That doesn't mean I didn't have fun with my PS2's and/or PSP's. In fact I had a lot of fun with both of those systems.

in short, if someone presents a valid point of view, it's a *gamer's duty* to be neutral and accept it.

It's a real shame that few people accept this way of thinking. Unfortunately, even being rather new to this forum, I have already seen avalanches of people that absolutely refuse to admit when they are wrong, due to this....clinging to a company's name.

I love them all. All these companies have provided tons of fun and entertainment to me.

And lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I keep in mind that every single one of these *COMPANIES* (as someone wisely wrote on this post: they are* businesses, not charities*), have their dark side. Such as being cheap, shipping defective material, completely overpricing their products, hiring companies with miserable reputations (sup FoxCon?), in order to maximize their profits, among many other nasty things.

Hell, even Nintendo started out as freaking Mafia, apparently.

Anyways, what I want to say is: have a neutral and informative opinion. Because being a FanBoy is a synonym for *Idiot*.

That is all.


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## ZAFDeltaForce (Nov 21, 2013)

DSGamer64 said:


> Not really. The upfront costs would allow them to produce more in a shorter time span and have them as inventory. Also, setting up a robotic line doesn't mean it can't be changed later. Robot arms are modular pieces of equipment and all you have to do is rewrite the program and change the tools on it in order to do a different function. Most of the robots they would need would only cost around $250,000 each, they certainly don't need the giant ones manufacturing environments use for moving heavy parts.


You should take into account the huge spike in overhead however, which would more than likely result in an increase in selling price.

Also, if you don't mind could you link me your source for robot costs? Maybe I'm missing something after all


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## DSGamer64 (Nov 22, 2013)

ZAFDeltaForce said:


> You should take into account the huge spike in overhead however, which would more than likely result in an increase in selling price.
> 
> Also, if you don't mind could you link me your source for robot costs? Maybe I'm missing something after all


 

I work in tooling and automation, the robots we use range from 250,000 to over a million depending on the size and capability of the arm. And a lot of the one's we use from ABB are used to assemble automotive components or move parts around I working cells.


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## Amber Lamps (Nov 22, 2013)

am I the only one here that noticed that in the OP rumor is spelled "rumour" which is the Europe and Canada way of spelling it (extra, unnecessary vowel in there)

/me fades back into the abyss...


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## Gahars (Nov 22, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> am I the only one here that noticed that in the OP rumor is spelled "rumour" which is the *European, Canadian, and Fleetwood Mac* way of spelling it (extra, unnecessary vowel in there)
> 
> /me fades back into the abyss...


 

>European uses European spelling of a word

Quite the observation, if I do say so myself.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 22, 2013)

The vowel is not "unnecessary", English comes from England. I am not accountable for any American bastardizations of the language. 

//Master_Trole_2013


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## Amber Lamps (Nov 22, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> The vowel is not "unnecessary", English comes from England. I am not accountable for any American bastardizations of the language.
> 
> //Master_Trole_2013


 
our english is more proper than England. I hear far, far more slang from british people than here. I mean it isn't like I really say good golly miss molly all the time  

but yeah we cut out some unnecessary stuff and it's interesting because I go online and I forget how to spell gray because there's tons of places that spell it "grey" also I have been to places in the usa where signs say that a shop sells tyres when everyone knows it is spelled tires. Oh look spell check on this forum says tyres is wrong lol. That is the correct way to spell it in England. rumour colour neighbour <- lol all of these are underlined in red.


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## ZAFDeltaForce (Nov 22, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> our english is more proper than England. I hear far, far more slang from british people than here. I mean it isn't like I really say good golly miss molly all the time
> 
> but yeah we cut out some unnecessary stuff and it's interesting because I go online and I forget how to spell gray because there's tons of places that spell it "grey" also I have been to places in the usa where signs say that a shop sells tyres when everyone knows it is spelled tires. Oh look spell check on this forum says tyres is wrong lol. That is the correct way to spell it in England. rumour colour neighbour <- lol all of these are underlined in red.


 
Likely because your browser/ OS uses the United States English language pack. If you switched to the British English language pack, you'd see your own argument fighting against yourself


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## Veho (Nov 22, 2013)

Amber Lamps said:


> am I the only one here that noticed that in the OP rumor is spelled "rumour" which is the Europe and Canada way of spelling it (extra, unnecessary vowel in there)


Just be glad they didn't spell it "rumoeur".


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