# Pokémon - The Battle Between Legitimacy and Legality



## Ryukouki (Dec 27, 2013)

​Hope you guys were not waiting too long for me to write something up for you guys! Those of us who are on team Nintendo have by now heard of Nintendo's woes with online services. As of Christmas Day, when thousands of people around the world have unboxed their new shiny Nintendo 3DS consoles and attempted to connect online were unable to do so. An error that is still ongoing, even as I type. The Christmas festivities also coincided with the release of Pokémon Bank and Pokémon Transport in Japan, which was bombarded with millions of users attempting to log into the game servers to transfer their old critters to the new game.​​When further information was released about the apps, it also appears that the hacked Pokémon prevention was also rather poorly implemented, with rumors of level one Gengars and illegal Infernapes plaguing the titles, even spurring up a not-so-healthy discussion here. What this topic will attempt to go through is a debate presenting the sides of each respective argument and discussing the many facets of competitive Pokémon battle.​​[prebreak]Continue reading[/prebreak]​​First of all, we need to establish the definitions and terms to at least acquaint you with the argument. There are three categories that Pokémon can be classified into.​​
Legitimate - To be a legitimate Pokémon means that this creature can be captured in the game or via breeding.
Legal - To be a legal Pokémon means that the Pokémon can be created with outside resources such as Pokégen or Pokésav; however, their stats and move sets are within the allowable parameters of the game. This method is what a lot of simulator programs such as Pokémon Showdown! or Pokémon Online use, to create competitive teams in mere minutes rather than spending thousands of hours grinding for perfect stats.
Not-so-legal - These players are classified as a sub-class of legal players that have tendencies of both legal illegal aspects. They like to do most of the things that legal players do, but they do not care about the overall aesthetic feel of the Pokémon. They tend to get the move sets and stats okay, but then they mess up or disregard the details such as location or PID, and make blunders such as Totodile being caught in a Master Ball. Or, a Chimchar caught at Mt. Coronet. To some, these things do not necessarily matter.


_Common tools that players use to create Pokemon._​
Illegal - To be declared an illegal Pokémon is to have move sets, stats, or abilities that violate the parameters established within the game itself. A quick example is Wondertomb. For those curious, Wondertombing is a nickname penned for Spiritomb, a Pokémon that until Generation VI had no weaknesses. Giving Spiritomb the ability Wonder Guard (only affected with attacks that are Super Effective) essentially made it invincible. Illegals can also consist of Pokémon that have move sets or abilities that are impossible, or maxed out 999 stats.
​Now that we have established the classifications of the Pokémon, we can begin to shape the argument a little bit. A popular debate that has struck the forums as of late is the issue of legitimacy vs. legality.

Legitimate players argue that legitimacy is the only way to go because the Pokémon are "true," essentially. They are made perfect through hours of breeding and were caught and/or trained the way that they should have been trained. Such methods involve utilizing the complexities of breeding mechanisms and items to create Pokémon with perfect internal values (IVs) or isolating the perfect natures (which determine stat balances) and then proceed to train their Effort Values (EVs) to be set for a competitive outlook.

Players who focus on legality are more along the lines of members who have access to a Generation IV/V game, which, as this forum is well aware of, had access to flash kits and computer programs to artificially create Pokémon, something that would have made Dr. Fuji proud. Legal players argue that their Pokémon are essentially "legitimate," which can be very much the case as such programs such as Pokégen allow the creation of such competitively based "legitimate" Pokémon down to the stats, their move sets, their IV/EV values, and aesthetics such as shininess, something that was made more accessible in Generation VI, both with more mechanics and an increased rate (increased from 1/8192 to 1/41XX). These programs are even thorough enough to modify them to their last detail such as catch location and even their personal identification value (PID). A legal player is one that can justify playing as such due to limited constraints such as time or dedication. _If executed carefully enough_, a legal player can very much hide themselves amongst the legitimate crowd and nobody would bat an eyelash.

Players who focus on the illegality bunch are lowlifes who should never plague online. Okay, that was a bit harsh, but a lot of the time it's either for fun or to mess around, and sometimes they end up online to people's dismay. If you are an illegal player, please do yourself and everyone in the online community a favor and never come online.

Now, the main crux of the issue is the release of the Pokémon Bank/Transporter application on the Nintendo eShop. A lot of users are complaining that these hacked Pokémon, though legal, should have no place in the current meta game as they were not created legitimately. And now the lines begin to bend. What makes a legal Pokémon not good enough for somebody's eyes? Assuming that the Pokémon itself follows the conditions of legality (acceptable IV/EV values, qualified move sets, locations, PIDs, etc.) what makes it that much different than a legitimate Pokémon? When it comes down to the bottom line, the only thing that separates them is the time investment, which can be argued that some do not have and simply want to have fun while being capable of at least keeping their head out of the water when faced with these competitively based teams. I have also seen arguments that sometimes shiny Pokémon appear within the legitimate category, and jealousy that a team is perfectly made with full shininess and perfect values. There's a serious misconception here that shiny Pokémon for whatever reason are causing issues. _Shiny Pokémon are nothing more than aesthetics. _I see people here making a huge deal on that factor, but they are only aesthetically there, with no influence on stats. They are only different color palettes, they do not influence stat gains or losses, otherwise this meta game would be all sorts of screwed up. As my old chap Veho pointed out, this idea has similarities to the idea of micro transactions, where the player can play and win the loot themselves, or pay and get the same result outright.

If you have been following me thus far, that is awesome, and you should have more than enough information to make a suitable reply. It is time for you to do some thinking. If you're just tuning in, do you personally feel that legal Pokémon fit in the meta game, or that they should be completely abolished no matter what? Do you find that legal Pokémon are wrong to use in comparison to legitimately earned Pokémon? Do you find that programs such as Pokésav or Pokégen help or hinder the competitive structuring of the game? Sound off in the comments below, and seriously, keep the comments civil.


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## pyromaniac123 (Dec 27, 2013)

This thread is going to be hilarious.


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## Black-Ice (Dec 27, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> ​What makes a legal Pokémon not good enough for somebody's eyes? Assuming that the Pokémon itself follows the conditions of legality (acceptable IV/EV values, qualified move sets, locations, PIDs, etc.) what makes it that much different than a legitimate Pokémon? When it comes down to the bottom line, the only thing that separates them is the time investment, which can be argued that some do not have and simply want to have fun while being capable of at least keeping their head out of the water when faced with these competitively based teams. I have also seen arguments that sometimes shiny Pokémon appear within the legitimate category, and jealousy that a team is perfectly made with full shininess and perfect values. There's a serious misconception here that shiny Pokémon for whatever reason are causing issues. _Shiny Pokémon are nothing more than aesthetics. _I see people here making a huge deal on that factor, but they are only aesthetically there, with no influence on stats. They are only different color palettes, they do not influence stat gains or losses, otherwise this meta game would be all sorts of screwed up.​


​ 

Give me a second to worship this beautiful paragraph.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 27, 2013)

pyromaniac123 said:


> This thread is going to be hilarious.


 

Yup, I can't wait.


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## RikuCrafter (Dec 27, 2013)

In full agreement with much of this article. Awesome write up.

Now, I can sit back and wait for hilarity to ensue. Come, Pokenerds.

To answer the question, I believe legal Pokemon are perfectly fine. If they are in the bounds of the game, how would you tell the difference facing them online?


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## Nah3DS (Dec 27, 2013)

absolutely NO!!!
I bought a Magikarp for $500 and it always loses in online battles.... those damn cheaters


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## Heien (Dec 27, 2013)

Online gaming, which requires any kind of grinding should award those who spend their time. Time is the most valuable thing you have, i fail to see any logic at this poll.


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## Arras (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm fine with edited stats as long as it's within legal bounds, but shinies... meh. They completely lose any and all meaning (as in, a very rare, special kind of thing) if you just hack them in. Also, RNG abuse is the exact same thing as using Pokegen or whatever for me.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 27, 2013)

If the thing is functionally no different than what can be made within the parameters* of the game** then I have no real objection to people generating them. Common sense would say even if it is functionally no different (where something is caught makes no odds as far as I know for instance) you probably still want to make it doable within the context of the game just to avoid poking the bear so to speak.

*as far as competitive advantage goes. Assuming it does not cause the stats at the limit to be out of bounds I see no problem with making level 1 versions of things you should not be able to get as level one.

**reading around I understand the devs sometimes deviate here. Copying that is fine.

If the generation of pokemon could not be summarised as "grind more" and actually took any amount of skill (timing challenge or something) to do properly* then I would be forced to change my opinion**. As it does not and as they are unlikely to change this any time soon then I am OK with it. If it took some absolutely crazy amount of time to do the grinding (thousands of active hours) then I might also have to say something, it does not though.

*this means if you win at the timing challenges then your mon will be better than it could have otherwise been, if it is just "timing challenges to reduce then grind" then it is back as making no functional difference.

**naturally if you are doing a challenge like "new game, 30 play hours later we will face off" then we will have issues.

Things that could not exist normally, we are back to the all parties have to consent idea that is common in game modding.

Going back to the second sentence then if you want all your mons to be theoretically obtainable in the game then fair enough. If you somehow consider a generated but otherwise as it could have been caught in the game to be tainted... yeah no.

The very short version would then be "If I am writing a perfect AI/model to play the game then would generation change this at all? If no then carry on, if yes then we have problems".

Edit. Oh and on RNG abuse vs cheating. One is forcing the game's internal memory to return a given result and the other is cheating.


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## EZ-Megaman (Dec 27, 2013)

Arras said:


> They completely lose any and all meaning (as in, a very rare, special kind of thing) if you just hack them in. Also, RNG abuse is the exact same thing as using Pokegen or whatever for me.


 

They're a lot more common now in 6th gen, so I'd say they've already lost some meaning.


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## TobiasAmaranth (Dec 27, 2013)

Well one thing that makes the 'legal' Pokemon route have a negative impact is actually the extreme shortening of time-vs-experimentation. Without the time investment, theorycrafters and meta-strategists can immediately have the new wave of fighters in a few hours and have shaped their team a dozen ways till Sunday to find exactly what stops 'that other guy'. The extremity of the time this takes will strongly negatively impact the environment thanks to those top-tier theorists. Rather than having things gradually shift as people experiment and build new teams, they will jump around almost wildly as different information pops up on what is considered 'best'.

To give people such drastic flexibility changes the way the atmosphere feels. To that end, 'legal' does have a negative impact. Food for thought. :3 *Doesn't even play*


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## Arras (Dec 27, 2013)

EZ-Megaman said:


> They're a lot more common now in 6th gen, so I'd say they've already lost some meaning.


Some, yes. But 1/4096 chance normally (or, what, 1/200 in the Friend Safari?) is still not nearly "here have all the rare shit you want" levels. Hell, it's probably better this way because with the old 1/8096 there were some people (like me) that had played hundreds of hours of Pokemon and never saw a Shiny.


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## total_split (Dec 27, 2013)

I think they should be allowed in the games, it's the players personal choice how they want to make their teams and how to have fun!  But nintendo are in a position where they have no choice but to take the moral high ground and prevent all tool generated pokemon from the poke bank and out of GTS and competitions.  

If the fake detection is already weak then it could take a long time for nintendo to fix it up, and I guess thats really where our $5 per year is going to be going.

It would be horrible for legit but exceptionally well raised pokemon to be detected as fake - like false positives in antivirus terms, and i doubt trainers would get much respite from nintendo if the situation arises, you'll just be branded a cheater and thats that.

I actually now wonder if $5 a year is going to be enough to keep up with implementing all the anti-cheating measures, and wether I'll be able to finally transfer my Black2 pokemon before January.


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## Sheimi (Dec 28, 2013)

For legality? pffft http://imgur.com/a/fuyu5


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

Sheimi said:


> For legality? pffft http://imgur.com/a/fuyu5


 

Now you're just showing off since you have a Japanese console with the apps on it.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 28, 2013)

TobiasAmaranth said:


> Well one thing that makes the 'legal' Pokemon route have a negative impact is actually the extreme shortening of time-vs-experimentation. Without the time investment, theorycrafters and meta-strategists can immediately have the new wave of fighters in a few hours and have shaped their team a dozen ways till Sunday to find exactly what stops 'that other guy'. The extremity of the time this takes will strongly negatively impact the environment thanks to those top-tier theorists. Rather than having things gradually shift as people experiment and build new teams, they will jump around almost wildly as different information pops up on what is considered 'best'.
> 
> To give people such drastic flexibility changes the way the atmosphere feels. To that end, 'legal' does have a negative impact. Food for thought. :3 *Doesn't even play*



I had considered such a thing in the past but between TMs, EV/IV stuff being averaged out or max for certain stats (not exactly many combinations, certainly not out of the realms of possibility of maintaining a stable of mons), move relearns and the relatively simple nature of the maths involved (linear probability is about as tough as it gets) I am not sure how valid it could be. It might be the case out in the wild but that would then seem to be more of a function of a lack of skill on the part of the pokemon community than hard physics. When it comes to that sort of thing I am nothing if not Darwinian in mindset.
Also to go a bit further I really do like systems maths, AI design and things like game theory/competition theory/mechanism design and as pokemon provides an interesting case study I do try to keep up with it.... the woo is ever so slowly being sliced out but the other stuff is largely nowhere to be seen. Granted this seems to be common to most "competitive" gaming that I have bothered to look at and I could we be wrong and there could be some private forum somewhere that runs the numbers properly (doubtful as such a thing is not reflected in any contests I have ever seen*).
Now you could quote yourself again as a reply and I would have to consider it. About the only negation is apparently the top peoples already breed in parallel and the previously mentioned possibility of keeping a stable.

*If it has evolved a stage further and stats are deliberately held back then I will actually be impressed. The closest I have ever seen anything here might possibly have been the smash brothers stuff earlier this year but as competitive smash is built on such a wonky foundation I can not even really consider it.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

My answer is going to be _"No"_, and here's why. Catching, breeding and training your Pokemon is sort of an essential part of the equation. Legal generated Pokemon or not, a player who generates automatically gets the best possible result within the legal limits. There's no way an average gamer would get there - not without wasting days if not weeks carefully breeding and taking notes, doing maths and whatnot - ain't nobody got time for that. Not only that, we're forgetting about the degree of randomness that's in the leveling mix, making every Pokemon unique.

Generating is a lazy alternative and it takes away all the effort from the process, but not only the effort - also, partially, the fun. If you used generated characters in any other game, overpowered or not, you would be called a cheater and Pokemon is no exception. Imagine if you were to log on Battle.Net with a generated character that wears the best armor, the best weapon and has the best stats - a practically maxed-out character. Would that be okay? I mean, you can find all this in-game, right? Right? Except you have to play the game to do it in a legit fashion. Generating stuff is _not_ playing the game.

What I will say though is that the Multiplayer section of Pokemon requires a revamp. So what if whatever Pokemon you're using is upscaled or downscaled to a given level, for example 50, if higher-level Pokemon are still going to do better in combat than lower-level ones precisely because of all the forementioned factors? I personally think that the system should average the Pokemon not just in terms of the level, but also the special stats, the moves or even the evolutions. What good is my level 50 Pokemon if it only knows Tackle? Hell, there should even be an institution of _renting_ virtual Pokemon from a built-in box to make matches absolutely fair - make them focus on the strategic prowess of the player, not necessarily whether they could min/max their Pokemon in a legit or non-legit way.


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

I see it like this: The game should be the only tool people use if they want to play against other people ingame.
Those that put more time into their pokemon should be the ones with the best pokemon. Easy and simple.

If they want perfect pokemon in seconds and just do the battles, use showdown. If all you want is strategize and theorytest, use showdown.

But if you want that edge over people that dont use pokegen, which last gen was huge considering it could take months to get a 5iv pokemon, in addition to easy access to eggmoves and tutor moves from 2 gens back, you hack your pokemon and then put them on a game and play online against everyone, people who do the same and people who dont. That's all there is to me. People that hack their teams together want that edge and they can't live without it.

I also keep reading how people brought gened pokemon into official tournaments and how all the winners use pokegen etc. Its great that you can bring pokegened pokemon into tournaments because hack checks are faulty and perfect pokemon can't be identified as hacked (other than by the fact that last gen, having pokemon with more than 4 perfect ivs was pretty much impossible without hacking), but their rules clearly state that third party devices are not to be used. Not that its fine as long as you stay within the boundaries of the games mechanics.

Personally, I just don't get whats so hard about just not hacking when you have showdown or shoddy or any other simulator


This gen changed a few things, namely that almost perfect pokemon are now something people can get. But that, to me, is no reason to say hacking is now ok because everyone can get similar pokemon (hackers still get the advantage of minimizing confusion damage on special attackers through 0 attack ivs), instead it should be: Because its easier to get those pokemon now, you dont need to hack anymore.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Dec 28, 2013)

Honestly? I wish people would stop taking Pokemon so fucking seriously. Like, people seem to put Pogymanz up on some sort of pedestal, as if it's the only game where cheating is terrible and rampant. But really? Every game is gonna have some dickbag who cheats. Who cares if some guy edits a Magikarp to have max IVs/EVs and all the best moves? Yeah, maybe you get boned in some online battle but...does it *really matter*? I mean, I would get it if there was some sort of big tournament with some sort of prize and that happens but otherwise...it's not a big deal at all and people need to stop treating it like it is.


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## pasc (Dec 28, 2013)

Yo, I heard Pokémon is serious business.
I have a suitcase full of Pokémon, and apparently I'm dressed in black.
Is that legal ?


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> Honestly? I wish people would stop taking Pokemon so fucking seriously. Like, people seem to put Pogymanz up on some sort of pedestal, as if it's the only game where cheating is terrible and rampant. But really? Every game is gonna have some dickbag who cheats. Who cares if some guy edits a Magikarp to have max IVs/EVs and all the best moves? Yeah, maybe you get boned in some online battle but...does it *really matter*? I mean, I would get it if there was some sort of big tournament with some sort of prize and that happens but otherwise...it's not a big deal at all and people need to stop treating it like it is.


 

This forum is oiled by the tears of Pokemon fans. It's only fitting that I bring out the absolute worst in people make the tears flow easier.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> Honestly? I wish people would stop taking Pokemon so fucking seriously.


Pokemon definitely isn't serious business, but I think this problem can be approached from a wider angle. Generating characters or items for online games, within legal limits or not, should be frowned upon - plain and simple. Say, if your level 50 Paladin which you leveled up for, say, a year or two, gets its ass kicked by a level 50 Shaman that was generated within 5 minutes, you're going to be upset. You'll be upset because it just isn't fair that a great chunk of your time spent on leveling up and customizing your character is nothing compared to someone's, perhaps well-educated and well-versed in the field, alas still unfair, fart in a generator.


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> Honestly? I wish people would stop taking Pokemon so fucking seriously. Like, people seem to put Pogymanz up on some sort of pedestal, as if it's the only game where cheating is terrible and rampant. But really? Every game is gonna have some dickbag who cheats. Who cares if some guy edits a Magikarp to have max IVs/EVs and all the best moves? Yeah, maybe you get boned in some online battle but...does it *really matter*? I mean, I would get it if there was some sort of big tournament with some sort of prize and that happens but otherwise...it's not a big deal at all and people need to stop treating it like it is.


 
well people proud themselves on bringing their pokegened pokemon to tournaments that do have prizes and all that.
(theres also the occasional outcry when the 'organizers' of such tournaments have no idea and people have to tell them that a certain pokemon couldn't possibly be legal due to illegal movesets and said people then get told off and nothing happens etc)


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Pokemon definitely isn't serious business, but I think this problem can be approached from a wider angle. Generating characters or items for online games, within legal limits or not, should be frowned upon - plain and simple. Say, if your level 50 Paladin which you leveled up for, say, a year or two, gets its ass kicked by a level 50 Shaman that was generated within 5 minutes, you're going to be upset. You'll be upset because it just isn't fair that a great chunk of your time spent on leveling up and customizing your character is nothing compared to someone's, perhaps well-educated and well-versed in the field, alas still unfair, fart in a generator.


 

Fair point, and at this point it's fair to say that the whole crux of this matter goes down to time commitments.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> Fair point, and at this point it's fair to say that the whole crux of this matter goes down to time commitments.


It's not only that, Ryu. A fight is _only_ ever fair if _everyone_ participating in it has access to a given asset or nobody does. We would have to _assume_ that all players use AR carts, flashcarts with Homebrew or other means to create _"legal"_ generated Pokemon to even entertain the thought of that being fair, and we know for a fact that not everyone does this - in fact, the vast majority does not, but they infect the network with their min/maxed Pokemon which are subsequently bred and multiplied over and over.

It would only ever be fair to use generated Pokemon if the game itself allowed you to generate Pokemon, and it doesn't. It _could,_ for _Online-purposes only_, perhaps in a separate mode specifically for that _(Dream Battles would be a good, thematic name)_, I can see that working perfectly fine, but it doesn't.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> It's not only that, Ryu. A fight is _only_ ever fair if _everyone_ participating in it has access to a given asset or nobody does. We would have to _assume_ that all players use AR carts, flashcarts with Homebrew or other means to create _"legal"_ generated Pokemon to even entertain the thought of that being fair, and we know for a fact that not everyone does this - in fact, the vast majority does not, but they infect the network with their min/maxed Pokemon which are subsequently bred and multiplied over and over.
> 
> It would only ever be fair to use generated Pokemon if the game itself allowed you to generate Pokemon, and it doesn't. It _could_ for _Online-purposes only_, perhaps in a separate mode specifically for that _(Dream Battles would be a good, thematic name)_, I can see that working perfectly fine, but it doesn't.


 

And, with that I think I'll say checkmate.


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## Sheimi (Dec 28, 2013)

In all seriousness. I had several people tell me before PokeBank that my team was basically hacked. (IV Bred with 5 Max IV Stats, right nature and ability). What is even considered illegal and legal?


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

Sheimi said:


> In all seriousness. I had several people tell me before PokeBank that my team was basically hacked. (IV Bred with 5 Max IV Stats, right nature and ability). What is even considered illegal and legal?


 

I tried to outline that in the first post, but even that seems a bit generalized lol.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 28, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> My answer is going to be _"No"_, and here's why. Catching, breeding and training your Pokemon is sort of an essential part of the equation. Legal generated Pokemon or not, a player who generates automatically gets the best possible result within the legal limits. There's no way an average gamer would get there - not without wasting days if not weeks carefully breeding and taking notes, doing maths and whatnot - ain't nobody got time for that. Not only that, we're forgetting about the degree of randomness that's in the leveling mix, making every Pokemon unique.
> 
> Generating is a lazy alternative and it takes away all the effort from the process, but not only the effort - also, partially, the fun. If you used generated characters in any other game, overpowered or not, you would be called a cheater and Pokemon is no exception. Imagine if you were to log on Battle.Net with a generated character that wears the best armor, the best weapon and has the best stats - a practically maxed-out character. Would that be okay? I mean, you can find all this in-game, right? Right? Except you have to play the game to do it in a legit fashion. Generating stuff is _not_ playing the game.
> 
> What I will say though is that the Multiplayer section of Pokemon requires a revamp. So what if whatever Pokemon you're using is upscaled or downscaled to a given level, for example 50, if higher-level Pokemon are still going to do better in combat than lower-level ones precisely because of all the forementioned factors. I personally think that the system should average the Pokemon not just in terms of the level, but also the special stats, the moves or even the evolutions. What good is my level 50 Pokemon if it only knows Tackle? Hell, there should even be an institution of _renting_ virtual Pokemon from a built-in box to make matches absolutely fair - make them focus on the strategic prowess of the player, not necessarily whether they could min/max their Pokemon in a legit or non-legit way.



Doesn't the difference then become about the actual time difference? In Diablo, even as far back as 1, a maxxed out character with all the best gear would quite literally represent an incredible amount of time and luck/randomness. Also you probably then get some skill thing as you kind of have to be up against the equivalent enemies as grinding it out against level 1 mobs would take even longer (effectively bringing a skill component into it) and probably even to the point of impracticality (it becomes exponential fairly quickly).

Pokemon can be made in parallel* (as indeed some apparently do) and the maths involved, assuming I am allowed to use a guide and do not have to reverse engineer the entire underlying logic myself, is not inconsiderable (and if it gets the kids to consider it a bit then I guess pokemon has served its purpose) but is hardly taxing beyond reason. Similarly could it not be viewed as almost a meta game or house rules (but kind of in reverse).

*you might be able to argue that you could make a guild or something and possibly then grind in parallel for the gear, how that plays out in a world of "soul bound" things which said gear often finds itself in I am not sure. Similarly the maths is probably still not in your favour.

Going back to the meta game thing I am probably going to arrive at the same conclusion and consider that multiplayer pokemon is possibly fundamentally broken and we then differ on whether generating mons is extracting some value or breaking the game further.


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## migles (Dec 28, 2013)

short version of my post: i am against hacks, but i agree people usually use this tools to speed up time but people don't leave forever so... and i dont see any problem on speeding up time

long version:

i am a person with a strong opinion against hacks on games... i have friends who played pokemon on emulators and they used tools for get a quick boost of level on their pokemons.. the only difference is not wasting time on leveling up, and they also play the game with "turbo" on battles so the training or battles get less tedious

however, i also played the games on emulators, i had the tools for hack\turn the game just a sandbox for making pokemon teams, i never edited a save or used cheats for speeding things or just put 999 stats on all, however i did used the turbo\speed boost for skip sometimes the loong chats which i had previously read or make a battle with npc less boring...

so even if i find it unfair for people who don't "speed up time" i agree that using the tools for getting legal pokemons shouldn't be considered cheating or hax or whatever...

but there is a hole in here, people usually use this tools for get event pokemons or limited distributions like arceus and etc... even if they are banned from competitions, the "limited" or "event" words loose what they mean...


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

There's also the possibility that due to the limited access to some of these events people were sort of egged on to use grayer means to get access to these legendary Pokemon too.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Doesn't the difference then become about the actual time difference? In Diablo, even as far back as 1, a maxxed out character with all the best gear would quite literally represent an incredible amount of time and luck/randomness. Also you probably then get some skill thing as you kind of have to be up against the equivalent enemies as grinding it out against level 1 mobs would take even longer (effectively bringing a skill component into it) and probably even to the point of impracticality (it becomes exponential fairly quickly).
> 
> Pokemon can be made in parallel* (as indeed some apparently do) and the maths involved, assuming I am allowed to use a guide and do not have to reverse engineer the entire underlying logic myself, is not inconsiderable (and if it gets the kids to consider it a bit then I guess pokemon has served its purpose) but is hardly taxing beyond reason. Similarly could it not be viewed as almost a meta game or house rules (but kind of in reverse).
> 
> ...


 
The problem with the Diablo comparison is that in case of Pokemon, the game will not gimp your Pokemon or cause them any issues if you are at a ridiculously better standing than your oponent. It will attempt to match the Pokemon level-wise, yes, but beyond that point the Min/Maxed Pokemon is still going to be superior in every single way because yes indeed, the Multiplayer is broken and needs to be repaired.

I personally think that _even_ when using a guide and doing the math like an abnormally pedantic player, you're _still_ playing the game, you obey the rules. By generating Pokemon, you do not play the game, you disregard the entire process, you only artificially inject something that does appear to follow the rules into the game.

Some say it's a matter of time, others say it's a matter of principle, I'm just going to say it's a matter of whether or not you want any feeling of accomplishment whatsoever. If you think that generating the Pokemon Master Race and winning matches with legitimate gamers using _"legal"_ Pokemon makes you a successful competitive player, okay, keep livin' the dream. I think it's cheating. That's not to say that I've never generated Pokemon - I have, but I never used them Online.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> The problem with the Diablo comparison is that in case of Pokemon, the game will not gimp your Pokemon or cause them any issues if you are at a ridiculously better standing than your oponent. It will attempt to match the Pokemon level-wise, yes, but beyond that point the Min/Maxed Pokemon is still going to be superior in every single way because yes indeed, the Multiplayer is broken and needs to be repaired.
> 
> I personally think that _even_ when using a guide and doing the math like an abnormally pedantic player, you're _still_ playing the game, you obey the rules. By generating Pokemon, you do not play the game, you disregard the entire process, you only artificially inject something that does appear to follow the rules into the game.
> 
> Some say it's a matter of time, others will say it's a matter of principle, I'm just going to say it's a matter of whether or not you want any feeling of accomplishment whatsoever. If you think that generating the Pokemon Master Race and winning matches with legitimate gamers using _"legal"_ Pokemon makes you a successful competitive player, okay, keep livin' the dream. I think it's cheating. That's not to say that I've never generated Pokemon - I have, but I never used them Online.


 

And then theres the soul crushing moment when you get decimated when you get beaten by a fully competitively based team while you struggle to keep your head out of the water.


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## gamefan5 (Dec 28, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> Now you're just showing off since you have a Japanese console with the apps on it.


 
Totally saw this thread coming. YES!


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

gamefan5 said:


> Totally saw this thread coming. YES!


 

I've been itching to get back and write a thinker article.


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## gamefan5 (Dec 28, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> I've been itching to get back and write a thinker article.


 
I'm actually wanting to share this with other sites but I am scared because of the flames than can ensure later.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> And then theres the soul crushing moment when you get decimated when you get beaten by a fully competitively based team while you struggle to keep your head out of the water.


If the team was legitimately trained and the system chose a worthy oponent for you _(or used handicaps to evenly match you)_, fair enough. If you just created it in a generator and your oponent has little to no chance of matching your statistics, it's the equivalent of getting jacked on steroids, buying a baseball bat at the nearest sports shop and beating the crap out of a kid who's armed with a candy cane. _Now that's an accomplishment! How utterly smart and competitive! _


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

gamefan5 said:


> I'm actually wanting to share this with other sites but I am scared because of the flames than can ensure later.



You are welcome to, so long as you credit me and say it was retrieved off site. I could PM you the code too.


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## Black-Ice (Dec 28, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> the system chose a worthy oponent for you


 
In rating battle, you should always be getting worthy opponents based on your rating
Free, well that's random.


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## gamefan5 (Dec 28, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> You are welcome to, so long as you credit me and say it was retrieved off site. I could PM you the code too.


 
Hmm, I would probably just link it though. Ofc if I decide to post the article, ofc I will credit you man. I ain't got no talent for posting huge articles like this with formal language. XD


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

gamefan5 said:


> Hmm, I would probably just link it though. Ofc if I decide to post the article, ofc I will credit you man. I ain't got no talent for posting huge articles like this with formal language. XD


 

Link it to me, credit my user name, so that if or when someone decides to unnecessarily bash me, I still have authority to be able to provide justifications.  You can find me in a private message somewhere...


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## Ziko (Dec 28, 2013)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> Honestly? I wish people would stop taking Pokemon so fucking seriously. Like, people seem to put Pogymanz up on some sort of pedestal, as if it's the only game where cheating is terrible and rampant. But really? Every game is gonna have some dickbag who cheats. Who cares if some guy edits a Magikarp to have max IVs/EVs and all the best moves? Yeah, maybe you get boned in some online battle but...does it *really matter*? I mean, I would get it if there was some sort of big tournament with some sort of prize and that happens but otherwise...it's not a big deal at all and people need to stop treating it like it is.


 
I agree. I feel very indifferent to this as I enjoy the games without worrying about all this hoo-ha. I like them because of the variety, challenge, and simply the time spent for training them.


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## Thanatos Telos (Dec 28, 2013)

NahuelDS said:


> absolutely NO!!!
> I bought a Magikarp for $500 and it always loses in online battles.... those damn cheaters


 
Currency's based off of yen, so more like 5 dollars.



Foxi4 said:


> If the team was legitimately trained and the system chose a worthy oponent for you _(or used handicaps to evenly match you)_, fair enough. If you just created it in a generator and your oponent has little to no chance of matching your statistics, it*'s the equivalent of getting jacked on steroids, buying a baseball bat at the nearest sports shop and beating the crap out of a kid who's armed with a candy cane*. _Now that's an accomplishment! How utterly smart and competitive! _


 
So, Scout on crit-a-cola vs Candy cane scout in TF2?

Foxi4 In case quotes are still broken.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanatos Telos said:


> So, Scout on crit-a-cola vs Candy cane scout in TF2?


I'm not a TF2 player, but from what I'm reading, Crit-a-Cola is a legitimate, tangible item that you can get in TF2 or at least trade it with other players in a legitimate fashion. I would sooner say that it's like a Scout who carries around an infinite supply of illegitimately-generated items that would otherwise take forever to get versus someone who plays legitimately but has next to no chance of competing anyways because those Cola's friggin' cost _a lot_ and he's not going to randomly drink one each and every round.


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## Thanatos Telos (Dec 28, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not a TF2 player, but from what I'm reading, Crit-a-Cola is a legitimate, tangible item that you can get in TF2 or at least trade it with other players in a legitimate fashion. I would sooner say that it's like a Scout who carries around an infinite supply of illegitimately-generated items that would otherwise take forever to get versus someone who plays legitimately but has next to no chance of competing anyways because those Cola's friggin' cost _a lot_ and he's not going to randomly drink one each and every round.


 






You should play it. It's fun and pretty easy to get into. Also, the item is permanent and refills between uses with a meter. Also, only idiots buy from the store, you can get them from the random drops. Not trying to be a dick though.


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## Gahars (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanatos Telos said:


> Also, only idiots buy from the store, you can get them from the random drops.


 

Dude, people spend money on the Steam trading cards. You know, the cards that don't actually exist and don't really do anything worthwhile.

If Steam has proven anything, it's that people are more than willing to throw money at the tackiest, most inessential things.


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## Nah3DS (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanatos Telos said:


> Currency's based off of yen, so more like 5 dollars.


no... 500 Pokedollars


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanatos Telos said:


> You should play it. It's fun and pretty easy to get into. Also, the item is permanent and refills between uses with a meter. Also, only idiots buy from the store, you can get them from the random drops. Not trying to be a dick though.


 
I realize that you weren't being serious, I just wanted to clarify my point, meaning, even if an item is entirely legitimate in-game, that doesn't mean that it's perfectly okay to attain it in an illegitimate way just because _"hey, others can get it too!"_.


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## Skeet1983 (Dec 28, 2013)

I believe that using hacked pokemon is ok, as long as it is not affecting another person's play experience. I have used cheats in games ever since the NES game genie, but I have never used cheats in multiplayer portions of games as well as online games. Even though I have some hacked pokemon and used AR in the past games, I wouldn't use those aspects against another player or online battles. I believe you should play games how you want as long as it is not hurting another persons fun with the game. That's just my thought on this subject.


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## Parasite X (Dec 28, 2013)

There's no such thing as an illegal Pokemon & until they start arresting people for these so called illegal Pokemon which will never happen i'll be laughing.


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## Sop (Dec 28, 2013)

Arras said:


> I'm fine with edited stats as long as it's within legal bounds, but shinies... meh. They completely lose any and all meaning (as in, a very rare, special kind of thing) if you just hack them in. Also, RNG abuse is the exact same thing as using Pokegen or whatever for me.


 
is rng that thing where you chain together pokemon or something to increase your chance of getting shinies ?

i dont even know pokemon.  i havent played since gen 3 ,


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## Ryukouki (Dec 28, 2013)

Sop said:


> is rng that thing where you chain together pokemon or something to increase your chance of getting shinies ?
> 
> i dont even know pokemon. i havent played since gen 3 ,


 

RNG = random number god/generator, also known as luck.


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## calmwaters (Dec 28, 2013)

All Pokemon are created artificially; it is legal to do this nowadays.    But the thing is that some people hack the community to introduce unnaturally powerful or strange occurrences of Pokemon. Now, that said...

"A popular debate in this forum seems to be legality vs. legitimacy." Well, it's perfectly legal to have a child, illegitimate or not. And some people raise Pokemon the same way they raise their children. Except the children are real and Pokemon aren't... ...anyway, "What makes a legal Pokémon not good enough for somebody's eyes?"? Well, what makes any Pokemon not good enough for somebody's eyes? It's legal to create Pokemon, guys; otherwise Nintendo wouldn't've been able to copyright the name. They would've had to sneak around to make the games. But there are legitimate and illegitimate Pokemon; it's sad that people have illegitimate Pokemon, though. But the print screen Ryukouki has posted would make any Pokemon owner proud; this is what they strive for in their Pokemon. And I believe that if you played Pokemon Sapphire hardcore for a whole year, you might get 100 Pokemon with those stats.

Play Time!  Replace every instance of the word "Pokemon" with "Children" in the article.


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## Kurt91 (Dec 28, 2013)

I personally don't play the games online at all. However, I have been a fan of the series from back in the Red/Blue days. As a whole, I own and have played through...

Pokemon Blue
Pokemon Yellow
Pokemon Gold
Pokemon Emerald
Pokemon Platinum
Pokemon White
Pokemon Colosseum

I don't understand the appeal of using a hacking program to just give yourself Pokemon with perfect stats, but once I've finished the games I haven't beaten yet (Gale of Darkness, Black 2), I plan on using PokeGen/PokeSav and replicating my Pokemon across all the games into a single cart. I've been working on catching the damned things for I don't know how many freaking years, having to start over from scratch every game because I don't want to buy a second system and everything to transfer them over every single time. It's just ridiculous.

So yeah. Online play I don't really care about, but I would say that it would be best to stay within your current group. If you play with legitimate Pokemon, try to stick with playing against others who do the same. If you play with legit "artificial" ones, play with others who do so as well. If you hack your Pokemon to ridiculous lengths, leave everyone else alone and play with others who like to do the same. (If at all possible)


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## Qtis (Dec 28, 2013)

In my opinion, people playing just offline can do whatever they want. Want to make the best pokemon in existence with cheats? Go ahead.

Online play on the other hand is another matter. Not that it'd be 100% clear, since I'm a bit divided. I understand the need for some kind of regulations with certain limits of online play pokemon. For instance, the illegal stats and whatnot for a certain type should not be allowed. If the pokemon is well within the allowed stats, why not?

Sure we can say that anyone playing online should have access to all kinds of guides to creating the best team ever with certain IVs, etc. But instead, there is little 7 year old Bob, who just received permission to try Pokemon online for the first time (!). He'll get torn into pieces if the only thing combating him is a few perfect teams. This is a common problem for many games with competitive multiplayer, but it's culminated in Pokemon. Not saying it's bad, but people do take it a bit too seriously.

Only a handful of people have really looked into the way the Pokemon games create stats and whatnot. If you take that out of the equation, not many people really could create perfect teams. Could using these guides be "cheating" just as well? Kind of like a walkthrough. The time and effort is needed sure.

I do like the idea Foxi4 had regarding the Dream World (or whatever the name) for "artificial" Pokemon. Some people just want to see if their team could actually play in a competitive environment against other teams. 


ps. I've last played Platinum to a finish and started White ("completed" games from all generations till Platinum though). I do have White and White 2, but I haven't had the time to invest into actually playing them to a certain level.


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## alex_0706 (Dec 28, 2013)

NahuelDS said:


> absolutely NO!!!
> I bought a Magikarp for $500 and it always loses in online battles.... those damn cheaters


 
you mean 5$
the money they pay you in pokemon is the yen. 100 yen is around 1$
so you have brought a magikarp for 5$


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## Arras (Dec 28, 2013)

Sop said:


> is rng that thing where you chain together pokemon or something to increase your chance of getting shinies ?
> 
> i dont even know pokemon. i havent played since gen 3 ,


RNG abuse is basically, you use a program to enter the stats you want and it spits out the buttons you need to hold and the exact timestamp you need to start the game on. If you can pull that off properly, it's basically pokegenning without having to edit the save file directly.


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## Ykr1113 (Dec 28, 2013)

Arras said:


> RNG abuse is basically, you use a program to enter the stats you want and it spits out the buttons you need to hold and the exact timestamp you need to start the game on. If you can pull that off properly, it's basically pokegenning without having to edit the save file directly.


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## Arras (Dec 28, 2013)

You can pick the exact nature, IVs, ability and shininess. How is that different?


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## Queno138 (Dec 28, 2013)

If there are people that are _such purists_,

Join a tournament that only allows "Pokemon with the Kalos Marker", 
or get Nintendo/GameFreak to host rated battles that only allow the "Kalos Marker".

At the end of the Legal VS Legit battle,
Across the internet, you'll never know. And the game would not know either, so legal can never be blocked or banned.

All there is right now, is that when you lose, you'll have this "_nagging feeling that the opponent uses hacks_",
when the truth is it's _how much your strategy failed_.

The problem is because _Pokebank failed its job_, you have a new victim to blame!

Yes, it sucks to lose, I know that very well.
But failure is the backbone to growth.
That's where you iron out what went wrong and where.

Of course, seeing a whole team or Shinies, or impossible shiny Pokemon, indicates that the user _hacked*,*_
but so? The IVs, EVs, are all within legal parameters.
If you can't handle it, it just means your team wasn't good enough.

Of course, it took you "time" to IV breed and EV train,
But IV breeding and EV training is _so much faster now_! It's not really an issue.

This entire issue can be compared to boxers who train.
One on steroids, one hits the gym diligently.
Ultimately, if the guy on steroids never gets caught, and he wins, it's his win.
If the guy who hits the gym wins, it's his skill and hard work that paid off, making the victory ever so sweeter.

Have a sense of sportsmanship!


My point:
1. Some people (not all) are sore losers and blame others for their own loss
2. The fact that it's within in-game parameters means it's down to a game of skill.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 28, 2013)

Parasite X said:


> There's no such thing as an illegal Pokemon & until they start arresting people for these so called illegal Pokemon which will never happen i'll be laughing.



I am reminded of the possible fake story of the little old lady that was told "Your computer has performed an illegal operation".



Gahars said:


> If Steam has proven anything, it's that people are more than willing to throw money at the tackiest, most inessential things.



There are more examples but "Beanie babies".


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## Gahars (Dec 28, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> There are more examples but "Beanie babies".


 

"They're gonna be worth millions, I tell ya, millions!"

It depresses me to know that I'll never invent a stupid fad (Beanie Babies, the pet rock, the Jump To Conclusions mat, etc.) where people throw riches at me for absolutely nothing.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 28, 2013)

Gahars said:


> "They're gonna be worth millions, I tell ya, millions!"
> 
> It depresses me to know that I'll never invent a stupid fad (Beanie Babies, the pet rock, the Jump To Conclusions mat, etc.) where people throw riches at me for absolutely nothing.



Though there is something to be said for the idiot savant thing do not be so upset as you can at least cook up good ideas
http://gbatemp.net/threads/games-yo...out-recommendation.351815/page-2#post-4722033


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## DarkStriker (Dec 28, 2013)

Why would this even matter anymore. Pokemon transferred via the pokebank doesn't have a hexagonal mark that shows their from kalos, and pokemon not from kalos isn't allowed in official tournaments(VCG & Rated battles) anyways. Not to mention that most exclusive moves are non breedable moves. Everyone is just gonna transfer their ditto and breed more 5-6 IVs pokemon within 30 min anyways and not really care about hacked/non hacked mons. Hacked mons affect *nothing* for online battles.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 28, 2013)

What if you are playing an MMORPG like WoW and you have to put a lot of effort and time into earning your gear and gold.
And then alot of people start to hack their characters to have the best gear and highest lvl in a day.
Ofcource it would be unfair to you and everyone else playing the game as it was intended.
Noone could say "it's your fault for not hacking like we do". Nothing can justify that.
Its a litle bit like stealing a high value pokemon TCG collection instead of spending all that time collecting the cards and trading yourself.

There is no excuse for ruining the game for others. if you don't have the time to train and breed your own pokemon then you should try to trade or do what you can with what you have.
If nothing above suits you then play something else please.


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## Queno138 (Dec 28, 2013)

I think _defining "ruined"_ is extremely critical in this debate.

What _is ruined_, exactly?


Just because users use 6IV Ditto to breed, it ruins your game?
(well, it ain't really your game, it's Gamefreak's game)

The peace of mind that users aren't using hacked pokemon?
(isn't an issue, because Kalos marker is required).

That users were using hacked-mons to breed to create a*ctual legit Kalos-mons* to battle online?



Frankly, you'll NEVER know what people are doing on the other end of the console,
and you'll NEVER know if they used hacked-mons to breed.

Thing is, does it matter?
Since GF took measure to ensure stuff can't go online,
and it has to be bred or caught in Kalos,
and there's no GEN VI hacking devices right now, IT'S ALL GENERATED LEGIT IN-GAME.

So your win is yours only, and your loss is yours only.


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## evandixon (Dec 28, 2013)

Hacked Pokemon (Legal and Illegal) are cheating.  As long as they stay local/only against an opponent that is aware of your hacked Pokemon, that's fine.  But as soon as you battle an unsuspecting opponent (random online battle/tournament) then you have an unfair advantage (I personally would be lenient towards minor edits, completely legal and things commonly found in game to save time, but others might not see it that way).


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

DarkStriker said:


> Why would this even matter anymore. Pokemon transferred via the pokebank doesn't have a hexagonal mark that shows their from kalos, and pokemon not from kalos isn't allowed in official tournaments(VCG & Rated battles) anyways. Not to mention that most exclusive moves are non breedable moves. Everyone is just gonna transfer their ditto and breed more 5-6 IVs pokemon within 30 min anyways and not really care about hacked/non hacked mons. Hacked mons affect *nothing* for online battles.


 
that is wrong.
you can change a byte in a gen 5 pkm file and when you send that pokemon over to gen 6, it will have the hexagon mark.
while there is lots of stuff being said about that, some claim that those transfered pokemon work like normal in special rules battle (the one that only allows kalos originated pokemon)

right now, that still has to be done in a hex editor. but its only a matter of time until someone updates pokesav/gen to include that kalos option


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## DaniPoo (Dec 28, 2013)

Well generating a nearly perfect team in a matter of minutes using hacked pokemon is very unfair. No matter how you put it, even if you *only* use them to breed you dream team.


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## Fishaman P (Dec 28, 2013)

I had previously been a proponent of legality ("legit hacks"), but now I'm all for legitimacy.
I'm still fine with people using "legit hacks", but the problem is, it's hard to know what's legal.
For example, in Gens 3 and 4, certain PID/IV combos were impossible to get except through breeding.

Also, I want to go to a Nintendo tournament someday.  Maybe.  I don't want to get flagged as a hacker because my friend just couldn't resist the Pokegen option.
Not that Nintendo can code hack checks for shit.


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## Sheimi (Dec 28, 2013)

Queno138 said:


> The problem is because _Pokebank failed its job_, you have a new victim to blame!


PokeBank didn't fail at all. I have used PokeBank on my Japanese 3DS. Moves that the Pokemon cannot learn cannot pass. Abilities that are Invalid do not pass. Hacked EV Spreads do not pass. Unreleased Dreamworld abilities do not pass. Please tell me how PokeBank failed to do its job.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 28, 2013)

Qtis said:


> I do like the idea Foxi4 had regarding the Dream World (or whatever the name) for "artificial" Pokemon. Some people just want to see if their team could actually play in a competitive environment against other teams.


 
Exactly. You could actually check whether your imaginary Pokemon set could compete before wasting hours upon hours training them, that's a huge time saver.


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## DarkStriker (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> that is wrong.
> you can change a byte in a gen 5 pkm file and when you send that pokemon over to gen 6, it will have the hexagon mark.
> while there is lots of stuff being said about that, some claim that those transfered pokemon work like normal in special rules battle (the one that only allows kalos originated pokemon)
> 
> right now, that still has to be done in a hex editor. but its only a matter of time until someone updates pokesav/gen to include that kalos option


Simply breeding that mon with a hacked 6 IV ditto yields the same results. *SO NO*


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## gamefan5 (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> that is wrong.
> you can* change a byte in a gen 5 pkm file and when you send that pokemon over to gen 6, it will have the hexagon mark.*
> while there is lots of stuff being said about that, some claim that those transfered pokemon work like normal in special rules battle (the one that only allows kalos originated pokemon)
> 
> right now, that still has to be done in a hex editor. but its only a matter of time until someone updates pokesav/gen to include that kalos option


 
Or... breeding the pokemon u transfered in Kalos gives an offspring WITH the hexagon mark BECAUSE it originated in Kalos. -_-
Never heard of that info at all.


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

Sheimi said:


> PokeBank didn't fail at all. I have used PokeBank on my Japanese 3DS. Moves that the Pokemon cannot learn cannot pass. Abilities that are Invalid do not pass. Hacked EV Spreads do not pass. Unreleased Dreamworld abilities do not pass. Please tell me how PokeBank failed to do its job.


 
unreleased dreamworld abilities make it through the bank.
theres a number of unreleased starters with their HA being traded around, like contrary snivy and thick fat tepig
in addition to that, shiny legendaries with perfect ivs as well as every other perfect iv'd pokemon (which is possible to get this gen, but was so impropable last gen that they should've been marked as hacked just cause its so unlikely. you'd win the lottery 5 times in a row before you get a shiny perfect legendary without hacking/rnging)
things that generally, are clearly the result of hacking, such as L1 latioses, or mewtwos, make it through too.
I'd bet my behind that impossible move combinations like seismic toss/wish blisseys make it through fine too.
probably pokemon in the event only cherrish balls too, or event legendaries with nicknames that shouldn't be able to get nicknames.

we all know that perfect pokemon would have to make it through the bank, that a cloned event pokemon would have to make it, but if all they  check is ability and attacks, then the hack check failed.



DarkStriker said:


> Simply breeding that mon with a hacked 6 IV ditto yields the same results. *SO NO*


 
I dont think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that hackers actually can create pokemon in gen 5 that are, for all intends and purposes, able to make it through the bank and directly into rated special battles/tounaments. that means people can use, for example, perfect pokemon with move tutor moves. giving them yet another advantage besides time and minimized confusion damage on special attackers.


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## Queno138 (Dec 28, 2013)

Sheimi said:


> PokeBank didn't fail at all. I have used PokeBank on my Japanese 3DS. Moves that the Pokemon cannot learn cannot pass. Abilities that are Invalid do not pass. Hacked EV Spreads do not pass. Unreleased Dreamworld abilities do not pass. Please tell me how PokeBank failed to do its job.


 

Ignoring the off chance that Pokebank servers had a slight update,
and that my statement was made back at the point lv.1 Gengars and unreleased abilities and Pokemon with wrong ribbons got through.

It's good to hear the Pokebank _manages to block something_.

My point is that_ it didn't set out to do what it claimed it would do_.


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## DarkStriker (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> unreleased dreamworld abilities make it through the bank.
> theres a number of unreleased starters with their HA being traded around, like contrary snivy and thick fat tepig
> in addition to that, shiny legendaries with perfect ivs as well as every other perfect iv'd pokemon (which is possible to get this gen, but was so impropable last gen that they should've been marked as hacked just cause its so unlikely. you'd win the lottery 5 times in a row before you get a shiny perfect legendary without hacking/rnging)
> things that generally, are clearly the result of hacking, such as L1 latioses, or mewtwos, make it through too.
> ...


 
You dont seem to get it. Those rated battles has a move/ability checker . You can for all i care transfer a snivy with his HA, but he wont be able to enter online battles. The same is for moves. Until proven otherwise, my statement is true.


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

DarkStriker said:


> You dont seem to get it. Those rated battles has a move/ability checker . You can for all i care transfer a snivy with his HA, but he wont be able to enter online battles. The same is for moves. Until proven otherwise, my statement is true.


 
Yes I know that Hidden Abilities that arent released dont make it to online battles. My point is they shouldn't have made it through the bank in the first place.

But online battles only stop so much. You cant have a gardevoir with mewtwos psistrike online because its a move it cant have. but they can have a gen 5 gardevoir with the tutor move hyper voice AND the kalos hexagon to use in rated and special battles.
They should not be able to have that, because hyper voice is a tutor move that doesnt get passed when they breed it for the kalos hexagon (a step they wont need to do now, that you can edit the pokemon in gen 5 to arrive in gen 6 with the mark already present)


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## Sheimi (Dec 28, 2013)

Unless someone tells me how to transfer Pokemon with it's HA. Then I will claim for now that it's not possible.


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

Sheimi said:


> Unless someone tells me how to transfer Pokemon with it's HA. Then I will claim for now that it's not possible.


 
http://imgur.com/t5gtT36

compare ability to japanese name of thick fat. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thick_Fat_(Ability)

its a hacked shiny thick fat tepig someone brought over back on christmas day

you transfer them like any other pokemon i'd guess

here it is transfered to an english game
http://i.imgur.com/4tz2Zbl.jpg


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## Sheimi (Dec 28, 2013)

I was able to transfer Tepig with Thick Fat. Nothing for Snivy with Contrary.


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## Deleted-236924 (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> but its only a matter of time until someone updates pokesav/gen to include that kalos option


That won't happen.


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## Hozu (Dec 28, 2013)

Considering that this site supports piracy (outside of providing ROMs), it's fairly obvious that the majority of opinions here are going to be biased. I mean, come on, if people willingly break the law, of course they'll have no qualms about breaking rules for an online game.


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

Pingouin7 said:


> That won't happen.


 
What do you mean, that wont happen?

Why would it not happen? It should be a pretty minor change really, its just a single byte that needs to be changed.

I'm not talking about a pokesav for Y and X. I'm talking about adding the option to give transfered pokemon the 'kalos hexagon' before its even transfered. A hack that right now, requires the use of a hex editor, but is pretty simple in general.


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## Veho (Dec 28, 2013)

In a game where battles relied more on player skill and less on the characters' starting stats, hacked (but still legal) characters wouldn't matter that much. But Pokemon is more or less a solved game (damage can be calculated in advance, and for every Pokemon with any move there is a mathematically optimal counter; you can calculate the perfect game for every battle) and players at the top level know exactly what moves to make each turn to play the perfect game, and 90% of the time the outcome is pretty much known before the battle even starts. Outside of some truly brilliant new tactic (and they grow rarer by the second) the outcome of a Pokemon battle really depends only on how much grinding the player did beforehand. Replacing all that work with a single, simple hack is unfair to the other player.


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## Deleted-236924 (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> What do you mean, that wont happen?
> 
> Why would it not happen? It should be a pretty minor change really, its just a single byte that needs to be changed.
> 
> I'm not talking about a pokesav for Y and X. I'm talking about adding the option to give transfered pokemon the 'kalos hexagon' before its even transfered. A hack that right now, requires the use of a hex editor, but is pretty simple in general.


 
Because of the entire policy of the website from which PokéGen originates, this simply won't happen.


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

Pingouin7 said:


> Because of the entire policy of the website from which PokéGen originates, this simply won't happen.


 
whats the policy of the website from which pokegen comes from? (is it the same as the ones that brought us pokesav?)

also, it doesnt have to be them specifically. a cheap .bat file would be able to do the same. all I'm saying is, it won't take long until people dont even need to open up a hex editor for this


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## Hadrian (Dec 28, 2013)

> illegal *Infernapes* plaguing the titles


Sounds and looks like a futuristic form of herpes to me.


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## Queno138 (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> What do you mean, that wont happen?
> 
> Why would it not happen? It should be a pretty minor change really, its just a single byte that needs to be changed.
> 
> I'm not talking about a pokesav for Y and X. I'm talking about adding the option to give transfered pokemon the 'kalos hexagon' before its even transfered. A hack that right now, requires the use of a hex editor, but is pretty simple in general.


 
and what byte is that? why will we want that anyway?


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

Queno138 said:


> and what byte is that? why will we want that anyway?


 
0x5F to 18

In a hex editor, it would look like this
http://puu.sh/5ZUZs.jpg

We generally don't want that. But what it does is, that a pokemon that came from gen 5 through the pokebank, has a Kalos Hexagon from the very start. By changing the bytes initial value to 18, you basically change its hatching location to a location in X/Y (in the case of 18, it seems to be the santalune forest from early in the game)

It would allow people to use their gened pokemon from gen 5 in gen 6's special battle (and it would probably be enough to slip by the tournaments general checks) so unless someone tells the repsonsible people that a mega gardevoir with hyper voice (or any other pokemon with a tutor move) and a kalos triangle wouldn't be possible unless its in some way hacked, people can cheat on tournaments


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## DarkStriker (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> Yes I know that Hidden Abilities that arent released dont make it to online battles. My point is they shouldn't have made it through the bank in the first place.
> 
> But online battles only stop so much. You cant have a gardevoir with mewtwos psistrike online because its a move it cant have. but they can have a gen 5 gardevoir with the tutor move hyper voice AND the kalos hexagon to use in rated and special battles.
> They should not be able to have that, because hyper voice is a tutor move that doesnt get passed when they breed it for the kalos hexagon (a step they wont need to do now, that you can edit the pokemon in gen 5 to arrive in gen 6 with the mark already present)


Reread.......


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

DarkStriker said:


> Reread.......


what do you want me to reread?

right now, as it seems, pokemon with tutormoves, genned in black/white, that should be unusable on special battle, can be used in special battle if gened to have the pentagon.


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## Queno138 (Dec 28, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> 0x5F to 18
> 
> In a hex editor, it would look like this
> http://puu.sh/5ZUZs.jpg
> ...


 
Has this been tested?

As far as I know,
that byte is for "Origin Game", and X and Y uses values 24 and 25 respectivel


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## Sheimi (Dec 28, 2013)

So yes, you can transfer Pokemon with Dream World abilities if done correctly. You cannot use them on Battle Spot. BUT, you can use them against Friend Battles.


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## Deleted-236924 (Dec 28, 2013)

Queno138 said:


> Has this been tested?
> 
> As far as I know,
> that byte is for "Origin Game", and X and Y uses values 24 and 25 respectivel


 
18 is 24 in Hex


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## Queno138 (Dec 28, 2013)

Pingouin7 said:


> 18 is 24 in Hex


 
Oh oops! Was thinking it was Dec. Oh wells.
It shouldn't be a problem as long as people don't know how to key that byte in and fix the checksum,
or if GF patches that

I can't wait for Pokebank to come out. :/


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## Clydefrosch (Dec 28, 2013)

Queno138 said:


> Oh oops! Was thinking it was Dec. Oh wells.
> It shouldn't be a problem as long as people don't know how to key that byte in and fix the checksum,
> or if GF patches that
> 
> I can't wait for Pokebank to come out. :/


 
fixing the checksum is apparently really simple, I left that out on purpose. but as I said, I expect that eventually, someone will make a small .bat file or add that function to pokegen or sav and then it'll just be a click...


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## Queno138 (Dec 29, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> fixing the checksum is apparently really simple, I left that out on purpose. but as I said, I expect that eventually, someone will make a small .bat file or add that function to pokegen or sav and then it'll just be a click...


 
Shhhh don't let them know! don't fan the flames of the war


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## bezman (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm not totally against the whole idea, but I 'frown upon' it.
As long as the people who do create these artificial Pokemon keep within the boundaries and not create 6 Arceus with maxed out stats and perfect IV's ad EV's then it's ok. They'll just miss out on that awesome feeling of catching, training and putting in the time and effort to have a strong and well balanced team.
I understand that if you have been putting in the time to research Pokemon and eventually come up with a strong team, you would want that team RIGHT NOW. You don't want to grind. However that would be, what some people would call, a 'false sense of achievement' because you didn't get the team you wanted through normal means.
Whatever floats your goat though.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 29, 2013)

The results of this poll are very interesting.


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## Parasite X (Dec 29, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> I am reminded of the possible fake story of the little old lady that was told "Your computer has performed an illegal operation".
> 
> What do you mean ?
> 
> There are more examples but "Beanie babies".


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## Edward266 (Dec 29, 2013)

I know this isn't much but here is my humble opinion.  I think you should be able to modify and do whatever you want to a game as long as you are not effecting anyone else but yourself.  But as soon as that modification starts to hurt other people and cause other people issues like using a hack or trick to steal someone else pokemon.  Something harmful that is not meant to happen.  However if you are doing it so you can make your way through the game on your own and not bothering anyone else I say why not.  I know I have used a few cheats to get like MasterBalls that way I could get my collection up.  But I was playing on my own an not bothering anyone else.  That is just my opinion.  I didn't read everyone else comments on all pages.


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## AngryGeek416 (Dec 29, 2013)

Poll upsets me, theres a bunch of good for nothing cheaters on this forum


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## GreatZimkogway (Dec 29, 2013)

AngryGeek416 said:


> Poll upsets me, theres a bunch of good for nothing cheaters on this forum


 
What do you expect, it's a forum for pirates and modders.


Here's my two cents.  Nothing in the world allows you to take the easy way out, legally.  You can try and justify non-legitimately created pokemon that are still in the bounds of "legality".  I'll make an example I'm sure someone is going tell me it's wrong to compare them, but look at something like Magic: the Gathering, or Pokemon TCG, or any TCG. 

You can *buy* cards, and simply netdeck and use whatever is winning.  But you can't just print these cards on your own, even if they are completely "legal" and look completely "legit".  It's simply not allowed.  Anyone who is found out is rightfully banned, permanently.  Now, there's the argument that these are physical objects, but the same goes for the online versions of these card games as well. 

You are not allowed to cheat your way in, even if it's identical to the real thing.  That's what forgery and cheating is.  Often enough, Nintendo or Game Freak will do tournaments with their games, many of which have *real money prizes*.  The majority of the players in these tournaments will be using things they worked hard to get, took time to train, to research, and craft these Pokemon. 

You may say "Oh, but I have a busy life, I don't have time to do all that", that's no excuse.  Steroids are of the same line of thinking.  They are illegal for a reason, it's simply giving you an easier time to be able to play.  Why should you get in any easier than the people who worked to get where they are?  Legal or not, it's an unfair advantage. 

And to take it a step further, with the release of Pokemon X and Y, training up a fully-crafted pokemon takes maybe an hour at most now, maybe a bit more if you're either unlucky, or going for a 100% perfect Pokemon.  They've made it easier than ever to become competitive in their own game, and have drastically lessened the time needed.  There's no excuse to need to use these modifiers or generators, because simply put, they aren't official. 

And I, for one, hope Nintendo puts some kind of way to detect and permanently ban those who try to use them.  It's unfair to the rest of us, and it's simply cheating your way through life.  But hey, this is GBAtemp, where people come to get patches for piracy and cheating already, so go figure.


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## gokujr1000 (Dec 29, 2013)

Honestly I think the entire argument is ridiculously stupid. The only people against legal Pokemon are the ones who spend hard work creating legitimate Pokemon and see it as unfair, they think that because they put effort into their teams that everyone else should too, or the people who see this as "morally wrong". The first group of people mentioned are incredibly selfish and one sided and don't see that the EV/IV system is extremely dated and utterly pointless. In my opinion IV"s shouldn't even exist unless Gamefreak can find a better way of implementing it or making it easier to create or determine the IV's given to your Pokemon. But that is a whole other discussion. As for the second group, they honestly shouldn't care because this is a video game. If you worry about what is right or wrong in a competitive aspect in video games you're going to have a horrible time. Both groups don't realize the people they should be angry or dissatisfied with are Nintendo/Gamefreak (I'm going to say Nintendo from now onwards). If Nintendo fixed the broken method of obtaining legal Pokemon via Pokesav, or whatever the fuck people use now, this argument wouldn't even be happening.  People are always going to use whatever is easiest to use or take the easiest way out of something in video-games and there is nothing wrong with doing this while the company developing the video-game does barely anything to fight it or try and stop it. This is exactly why people will spend enough to buy a new computer on micro-transactions or why in shooting games everyone uses the weapon that is the most over-powered, or why Smogon has a list of tiers for when people want to battle competitively.


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## Jayro (Dec 29, 2013)

I would like to release a bunch of shiny level 100 magikarps into wondertrade, and watch everyone flip shit when they don't have Flail. XD


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## DJPlace (Dec 29, 2013)

nintendo should of pulled a third gen move. where you could not get any pokemon from any games at all. like the old gameboy games could not move to gameboy advance. they should of done IMO. then this shit would of never happend.


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## GreatZimkogway (Dec 29, 2013)

gokujr1000 said:


> Honestly I think the entire argument is ridiculously stupid. The only people against legal Pokemon are the ones who spend hard work creating legitimate Pokemon and see it as unfair, they think that because they put effort into their teams that everyone else should too, or the people who see this as "morally wrong". The first group of people mentioned are incredibly selfish and one sided and don't see that the EV/IV system is extremely dated and utterly pointless.


 
How is it selfish?  Tell me, what other game or sport can you cheat and generator your way to the top?  It's unfair no matter what, and you saying it's selfish to think so just shows you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## gokujr1000 (Dec 29, 2013)

GreatZimkogway said:


> How is it selfish? Tell me, what other game or sport can you cheat and generator your way to the top? It's unfair no matter what, and you saying it's selfish to think so just shows you have no idea what you're talking about.


 

It's selfish because they're not looking at it from more than one perspective. Anyone who does look at this from the perspective of others isn't arguing that people who generate Pokemon are evil but instead blaming Nintendo because it's Nintendo's fault. Gamefreak has been smart and made it so that EV's are extremely easy to get now but still keep the same ridiculous system of IV's and haven't tried to make it less time consuming than it already is. If IV's and EV's combined only took someone a few hours per Pokemon then I would see the point in this argument but the fact is that getting a Pokemon with amazing IV's and then EV training them takes shitloads of time. Time that not everyone on this planet has. If Pokemon was my heart and soul and I played it competitively but could only do it about an hour or two per every few days because I had a job, friends and family I would sure as hell be one of the people exploiting the game to get a Pokemon which was legal in every sense apart from being computer generated.


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## GreatZimkogway (Dec 29, 2013)

gokujr1000 said:


> It's selfish because they're not looking at it from more than one perspective. Anyone who does look at this from the perspective of others isn't arguing that people who generate Pokemon are evil but instead blaming Nintendo because it's Nintendo's fault. Gamefreak has been smart and made it so that EV's are extremely easy to get now but still keep the same ridiculous system of IV's and haven't tried to make it less time consuming than it already is. If IV's and EV's combined only took someone a few hours per Pokemon then I would see the point in this argument but the fact is that getting a Pokemon with amazing IV's and then EV training them takes shitloads of time. Time that not everyone on this planet has. If Pokemon was my heart and soul and I played it competitively but could only do it about an hour or two per every few days because I had a job, friends and family I would sure as hell be one of the people exploiting the game to get a Pokemon which was legal in every sense apart from being computer generated.


 
It's because the other perspective is being entitled. First off, if you're planning on playing casually to begin with, and I don't say that like a bad thing, what use do you even have going for perfect stats? And yes, they have made IVs far more easy to get. With certain items, you can now transfer up to FIVE IVs. Any pokemon caught in the friend safaris have two guaranteed perfect IVs. You can pass on moves and abilities from both parents now.

You don't see people magically getting muscles to play sports, do you? No. You work towards them. Using the same type of time and effort you would here. Some people play sports purely for fun, or on a whim. They don't play to compete, at least not on a high level. They want to do that, guess what, they have to train. *T R A I N*. You aren't entitled to having perfect pokemon, and Game Freak isn't giving you the option to do so without a bit of elbow grease. Now if you're telling me you can't find time to take a couple of hours to idly catch some pokemon, breed a few IVs if you so choose, maybe egg moves as well...then what are you even playing the game for? Go play on Shoddy Battle, or Pokemon Showdown. If you're going to play the official thing, play by the same damn rules everyone else is. Having a job and friends and family doesn't give you a free pass to bypass the exact same work everyone else has to do, and finds time to do.

Oh yeah, for the record, I work about 65-70 hours a week and can still find a few hours to train up a handful of pokemon and drag them online for a little bit.  Only need three to play matches online.  At most, that's 3 hours of training if you want guaranteed decent IVs.  Otherwise just get the right nature, which is dirt easy, the right moves, EV train using hordes(this takes 5 minutes tops), and saunter your way online and have fun.


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## gokujr1000 (Dec 29, 2013)

GreatZimkogway said:


> It's because the other perspective is being entitled. First off, if you're planning on playing casually to begin with, and I don't say that like a bad thing, what use do you even have going for perfect stats? And yes, they have made IVs far more easy to get. With certain items, you can now transfer up to FIVE IVs. Any pokemon caught in the friend safaris have two guaranteed perfect IVs. You can pass on moves and abilities from both parents now.
> 
> You don't see people magically getting muscles to play sports, do you? No. You work towards them. Using the same type of time and effort you would here. Some people play sports purely for fun, or on a whim. They don't play to compete, at least not on a high level. They want to do that, guess what, they have to train. *T R A I N*. You aren't entitled to having perfect pokemon, and Game Freak isn't giving you the option to do so without a bit of elbow grease. Now if you're telling me you can't find time to take a couple of hours to idly catch some pokemon, breed a few IVs if you so choose, maybe egg moves as well...then what are you even playing the game for? Go play on Shoddy Battle, or Pokemon Showdown. If you're going to play the official thing, play by the same damn rules everyone else is. Having a job and friends and family doesn't give you a free pass to bypass the exact same work everyone else has to do, and finds time to do.
> 
> Oh yeah, for the record, I work about 65-70 hours a week and can still find a few hours to train up a handful of pokemon and drag them online for a little bit. Only need three to play matches online. At most, that's 3 hours of training if you want guaranteed decent IVs. Otherwise just get the right nature, which is dirt easy, the right moves, EV train using hordes(this takes 5 minutes tops), and saunter your way online and have fun.


 
1. IV's are still time consuming to receive and take far too much effort even with everything you've listed.

2. This is a video game not a sport and even then if you cheat at a sport they have developed ways to catch you unless you play the sport casually, and even then you play a sport casually for fun.

3. Gamefreak is giving you the option by not putting effort into catching generated Pokemon.

4. For some people, like myself, Shoddy Battle and Pokemon Showdown just doesn't feel the same as getting to see your Pokemon in game.

5. You've found time to train your Pokemon, good for you. Be mad at Gamefreak for not appreciating people like you not those who are given the easy way out.

If I gave a shit about breeding the perfect Pokemon I would put hours and hours into perfecting my team. I disagree with cheating and think Gamefreak needs to find ways to stop it. But as long as they allow an easy way out people are going to take it and I accept that. Most of the people who generate their Pokemon would spend their own time perfecting their Pokemon, although the sane ones would disagree with the amount of time it takes, but as long as there is an easier road that road will be overflowing with people wanting to take it. It's only human nature for people to want to generate their Pokemon while they have the option to do so. Don't get mad or try to fight those people because you'll be wasting your time. Be mad at Gamefreak instead.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 29, 2013)

Hozu said:


> Considering that this site supports piracy (outside of providing ROMs), it's fairly obvious that the majority of opinions here are going to be biased. I mean, come on, if people willingly break the law, of course they'll have no qualms about breaking rules for an online game.


Piracy is typically a civil infringement when it comes to legal things, online hacking, especially one that provides no great gain other than time saved, is at best a social contract. I am not sure you can conflate the two either.




bezman said:


> I'm not totally against the whole idea, but I 'frown upon' it.
> As long as the people who do create these artificial Pokemon keep within the boundaries and not create 6 Arceus with maxed out stats and perfect IV's ad EV's then it's ok. They'll just miss out on that awesome feeling of catching, training and putting in the time and effort to have a strong and well balanced team.
> I understand that if you have been putting in the time to research Pokemon and eventually come up with a strong team, you would want that team RIGHT NOW. You don't want to grind. However that would be, what some people would call, a 'false sense of achievement' because you didn't get the team you wanted through normal means.
> Whatever floats your goat though.



That "awesome feeling" for me would be "urgh now I have 20 hours or pressing A" ahead of me.



AngryGeek416 said:


> Poll upsets me, theres a bunch of good for nothing cheaters on this forum


I gather then you are of the opinion that any action not done within the game would be unjustifiable cheating? Even when the end result is a shortcut around a relatively short time investment (with no skill beyond reading comprehension and basic numeracy)?



GreatZimkogway said:


> Here's my two cents.  Nothing in the world allows you to take the easy way out, legally.  You can try and justify non-legitimately created pokemon that are still in the bounds of "legality".  I'll make an example I'm sure someone is going tell me it's wrong to compare them, but look at something like Magic: the Gathering, or Pokemon TCG, or any TCG.
> 
> You can *buy* cards, and simply netdeck and use whatever is winning.  But you can't just print these cards on your own, even if they are completely "legal" and look completely "legit".  It's simply not allowed.  Anyone who is found out is rightfully banned, permanently.  Now, there's the argument that these are physical objects, but the same goes for the online versions of these card games as well.
> 
> ...



Everything in the world allows you to make life easier for yourself, especially if you are willing to invest some knowledge in the matter. The trouble comes in that such methods tend to be copied by all and then either the baseline for easiness/ease of living moves up or (though usually "and then") someone makes an even better method. I reckon the idea of high frequency stock trading provides this in an almost pure example -- faster computers, better algorithms, closer to the exchanges to lessen the speed of light issue, rinse and repeat until the only people that can compete in that world are those willing to invest heavily.
To this end we are back at "would such things fall foul of the social contract?" which is what this topic seems to effectively be.

On Magic cards.
Many a tournament is run by Wizards of the Coast or with their blessing at some level. They would then tend to have a reason for wanting to go all inside their own wallet systems. See also the idea of a pay to play or pay to win system (Pokemon TCG and YuGiOh TCG being demonstrated to potentially be this on several occasions, magic slightly less so but not all the way). If you want to play in that system then that is fine, it is not a great comparison to this though.

Steroids are not the same line of thinking. They almost invariably have serious fairly short term consequences for those taking them.

Similarly we also have to decide what is a sport and what is a game. For my money a sport has to have a reaction time component, give or take move selection time limits pokemon does not have this either in the rules or as macro/emergent consequence of the underlying rules. Similarly a reasonable stable would then seem to take me but a very short amount of time to make, if it took an amount of time where time required / time since game's release was close to 1 for the first year or two then yeah generation would be an issue for me. As the time required / time since game's release tended towards zero after about the second week since release and is only getting lower*

*others are noting as yet unreleased moves/abilities/things. This is a model used by some would be MMO type games to effectively increase the level cap without otherwise increasing the number actually known as the level cap (see also why I consider Zelda a RPG). As a handful of unreleased moves are unlikely to shake things up too much beyond possibly changing the previously winning combos I am not seeing it.

However I am repeating what I said earlier so I will tie it off there for now.


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## Narayan (Dec 29, 2013)

I don't mind if people would use it alone, but if it goes to multiplayer or sold, then there's a problem. Artificially created pokemons are cheated pokemons even if they had the same limits as the legitimate ones. 
They are made/obtained from hacking, or in other works, breaking the game or it's mechanics and it does not deserve any recognition.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 29, 2013)

Narayan said:


> I don't mind if people would use it alone, but if it goes to multiplayer or sold, then there's a problem. Artificially created pokemons are cheated pokemons even if they had the same limits as the legitimate ones.
> They are made/obtained from hacking, or in other works, breaking the game or it's mechanics and it does not deserve any recognition.



How is it breaking the game if they are functionally identical and creating them "normally" takes a fairly short amount of time (long afternoon for a single one and a weekend for a team if you are taking your time)?


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## Narayan (Dec 29, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> How is it breaking the game if they are functionally identical and creating them "normally" takes a fairly short amount of time (long afternoon for a single one and a weekend for a team if you are taking your time)?


It's because the method in which they are created aren't withing the game's rules. Although the scale of time it can be created legitimately would make the difference negligible, in my own views, I still do not want to acknowledge it being used in an environment where people created their pokemon within the game's rules/methods.

It's personal, I have a problem when people want to have equal standing with someone who made an effort even though they didn't make any.


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## daniilS (Dec 29, 2013)

I think it would only okay to use legal pokemon if there was some kind of split in the online battling system. If you use tools to create legal pokemon or don't but just want to show how badass you are, you go onto the legal server. If you like to train, breed and grind, and don't want to suddenly face a lvl. 100 31/31/31/31/31/31 max ev shiny perfect moves max happiness max affection overpowered legendary, you go onto the legitimate server.


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## ßleck (Dec 29, 2013)

Hmmm... Interesting subject. I think both sides have made some reasonable points. If you're using artificially created pokemon technically you are cheating, that's a fact. The question is if it should be allowed.

I think if a pokemon is "legal" and only if it's really "legal" they should be allowed in the game. I understand that this is cheating and it isn't supposed to be in the game. Besides, not everyone can just go ahead and create such pokemon. However, like others have said, it does take a lot of time to create legitimate pokemon good enough for competitive battles.

With the current circumstances it looks like many other people will be using these methods anyway. I wish Nintendo could just be able to block any way of cheating so we wouldn't need discussions like this. I personally don't actually like cheating, but with another process that drastically reduces the amount of time to get the same outcome available (I know it sounds like using steroids and stuff like that, but this is clearly a less serious subject)... I can't just ignore something like this, even if this makes me sounds like an evil hypocrite.


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## daniilS (Dec 29, 2013)

If you think pokememon is only about battling with the perfect pokes, you're wrong. There are enough alternatives if you only want to battle, like showdown. If everybody can get perfect pokemon within a few seconds, then what's the point of the whole breeding/training/catching thing?


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## Sheimi (Dec 29, 2013)

Generating Perfect Pokemon doesn't give off the certain feeling of accomplishment.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 29, 2013)

ßleck said:


> I wish Nintendo could just be able to block any way of cheating so we wouldn't need discussions like this.



Surely that would require them to write a bug free program and that is not happening for a complex program, one that has to run in human time and one that has to run on something less than an unlimited system any time soon.




ßleck said:


> Hmmm... Interesting subject. I think both sides have made some reasonable points. If you're using artificially created pokemon technically you are cheating, that's a fact. The question is if it should be allowed.



So now we have degrees of cheating.



Narayan said:


> It's personal, I have a problem when people want to have equal standing with someone who made an effort even though they didn't make any.



Agreeable enough as long as we are talking about a broadly symmetrical game (some people are naturally stronger, smarter, more dexterous....). However I am not sure I can respect the grinding/levelling part of it, by all means have it as a component in the game and I can even see people enjoying it but as far as my respecting it well enough to diss those that would skip it then not so much.



Sheimi said:


> Generating Perfect Pokemon doesn't give off the certain feeling of accomplishment.


Spending an hour or three breeding and grinding up pokemon does not give me any feeling of accomplishment.



To spin another.
If I can restore a save is that cheating or acceptable?


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## gundambot (Dec 29, 2013)

First of all, there is no such thing as 'legal' or legality' - it's some term cheaters made up to rationalize their cheating.
It's either legitimate (or real) or it's not. Period.
That's the way players are (officially) asked to play the game. That's the only way the game should be played.
When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game. 

I mean of course, cheating is possible (and present) in many things in life. But* everyone strifes for fairness, because everyone understands that, the best possible outcome for all is still when as many participants plays fairly as possible. *

So the fact this discussion taking place is even possible (and the discussion itself), is kind of moot - it pretty much argues that cheating is suitable. 
Note that the stance in the discussion goes further than saying cheating should be embraced and tolerated, as it _is_ present.*
But the argument is saying that '_cheating is good_' and should be part of the game.  
*  (it is aware that in the last world championships, both the Japanese national champion/worlds runner-up, and the Korean champion/1st place undefeated after swiss, have Pokemon in their teams obtained with cheats, i.e. impossible pid/iv combination)  

**I played competitively and have gotten top 8 and top 4 at regional championships while having Pokemon on my team obtained via RNG. And in all fairness, I consider myself have cheated. So please note it's not like I'm taking some 'higher moral ground' in this. 

Here are a few of the arguments towards this made up 'legality' thing that I have read, (i.e. they typically fall into these patterns):

*- "XXX is not cheating/hacking. It's just a time-saver."*
The 'time saver' argument. The 'I don't have that much time' or 'they should make ___ system simpler', type of deal. 
Well, *ALL* cheats are "time-savers". People wouldn't cheat to spend more effort/time...
This isn't an argument. It's an excuse, an excuse for not spending/willing to spend the amount of time others have to play the game fairly.
Note that if this is an valid argument, then it can be used the same to justify any type and any amount of cheating in just about everything...

*- "Legal" cheats are fine because all the parameters are within normal, obtainable range. *
I usually hate making analogies since they're usually nothing like what you're comparing to and makes the argument weaker...but
Thinking of 'legal' hacks as money stolen from someone or rubbed from a bank (or what have you..). As opposed to counterfeit bills, the money one has gotten this way has nothing wrong with them compared to real ones - but the act itself is still wrong. 
The fact that the properties/stats of the Pokemon created with cheats is normal have nothing to do with cheating being right or wrong.
The apparent 'rightness' of the product obtained, speaks nothing of the rightness of the _method_ by which it's obtained.

*- "If Nintendo/Gamefreak wants everyone to play fair they should've implemented better checks. / As long as this isn't in place, I'm ok with cheats."*
The "i'm doing it because I can get away with it" excuse. 
I hope we can all see how this argument pretty much defeats itself....

Most of all, "legal Pokemon"/cheats renders an entire aspect of the muti-play pointless - trading. 
There is no longer any point to trading when everything could just be 'created' with cheats. When it's no longer distinguishable between the fake created with cheats and the innate of value of the real ones. 


I hope we can all agree that, the best multiplayer environment we've had so far, was the few pre-bank XY months - when it is (generally) not possible to cheat at all. When everyone could trade and battle without worrying about whether your opponent has cheated or the Pokemon you got in trades is legit or real.  There was not even any issues or the need for this discussion, until cheating is present and affecting the experience of players negatively. 
 (I am aware that the signal checker existed when it did, and players did use it to cheat...which is unfortunate..)


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## FAST6191 (Dec 29, 2013)

gundambot said:


> First of all, there is no such thing as 'legal' or legality' - it's some term cheaters made up to rationalize their cheating.
> It's either legitimate (or real) or it's not. Period.
> That's the way players are (officially) asked to play the game. That's the only way the game should be played.
> When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game.
> ...



It is cheating, sure. Is it necessarily a binary thing (in sports if a team screws up but the advantage is to the opposition or no net benefit it is often left to play on) and is that always and without question wrong?

"When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game. "
No when you ignore the rules of the game you often end up with another game. Sure you are not playing the original game and as such comparing experiences gets tricky but there is still a game. See also "house rules".

What is fairness? As far as I am aware the only rules I am truly bound by are the rules of physics. Everything else is up for debate.

All cheats are not time savers. I often make cheats and hacks to make games harder or change the way they play at some level for it to be more fun for me.

"[time savers] then it can be used the same to justify any type and any amount of cheating in just about everything"

No it can not. Trouble is now we have to discuss what sort of game pokemon is using all the fun maths terms. My argument was that anybody (it does not take a ridiculous amount of time, any great amount of luck, quick reactions or any great mathematical, logical or literary skill) can have made a "perfect" team within the game by this point in time (others have claimed it is a couple of hours per mon, I am going with that). Other games may need skills in reactions, maths, logic.... to level or a time investment that is in the order of actual years of active play and those are a different type of game, not a great one necessarily to my mind but hey.
Alternatively why do I need to play the 30 hour entrance exam to proper random online play (and online play has tended to needing said perfect mons)?
Going back to the fairness thing I have access to all the same moves, all the same potential stats/abilities, all the same mons.....

"The apparent 'rightness' of the product obtained, speaks nothing of the rightness of the _method_ by which it's obtained."
If that is how you feel then fair enough, it is not even a view all that strange to my mind (I would call it irrational and possibly nebulous but it is understandable. I am reminded of the end game speech of the first games that said words along the lines of "you won because you loved you pokemon" and the rather derisive snort my somewhat younger self made at that point, see also "heart of the cards in yugioh"). However going back to the rules of physics thing if the numbers are the same then the product is the same. If there is a "tainted" component then the numbers are not the same and as pokemon does not recognise said tainted stuff then the numbers are the same....

On Nintendo/GF actually having a clue about security.
There is a line of logic that says if you are broadcasting unencrypted data into a network I control/am responsible for I can take a peek. I assume that also takes care of glitches. Still I am not seeing anybody really argue that.

On trading. It might negate the need for someone to trade if they can generate. However we are back at the what makes the game thing. Some like the training game, some like the trading game, some like the story thing, some like doing artificial challenges within the story and some like the battling game (going for sports this might be the differences between shooting hoops and actually playing basketball). Most of the best battling happens with end stage mons with all the moves available to them.
Gamefreak could have made low level battles a thing, hell I saw just such an option in stadium years ago, but hey.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

Whether they should or shouldn't be allowed is irrelevant. A properly made "legal" monster is not going to be distinguishable from one that was legitimately bred/caught. GF would clearly like NOT to allow this. What is laughable, is that they failed to even ban the "obviously" illegal monsters.

There are a handful of things they could have done.
1. Make X and Y its own game, one that doesn't allow imports, but actually contains all of the pokemon (between the two titles). But some might not like this soooo.....
2. get rid of the stat thing altogether. Why should IVs even be a thing. Let my Charizard be the same as your Charizard 100% of the time, and allow skill (sometimes luck) decide the winner of the battle. GF's dream seems to be for all pokemon trainers to be Lance Armstrong biking all around. Ironic that even lance cheated though, huh?
3. Make their own 3DS app that lets you create and import pokemon. It was inevitable anyway, wasn't it? Honestly, the way these monster's data is built, they will not be able to ban an externally generated monster if the person creating the monster did his/her homework. They simply won't and no amount of talking will convince me otherwise. Believing that they could somehow detect this is admitting that one doesn't understand the data that actually makes up a pokemon.


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## donaldgx (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes, this pokemons should be allowed, just like it should be possible to start any other mmorpg and have a maxed character with the best possible armament within a day, heck i should be given one the first moment i log onto one.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 30, 2013)

donaldgx said:


> Yes, this pokemons should be allowed, just like it should be possible to start any other mmorpg and have a maxed character with the best possible armament within a day, heck i should be given one the first moment i log onto one.



Is that a good comparison though? I have to have timing/reactions to play most MMORPGS, the time investment is quite literally up in the thousands of hours where you have to be properly dedicated to do it and the games usually still allow for lower level play (they kind of have to or they would not have anybody still paying/playing).

Pokemon is arguably a different sort of game -- no timings/skill/reactions needed to breed other than so much press A, the time investment is "long weekend" or a few hours per mon (to the point where everybody can easily get there) and though it is a bit more nebulous (assuming my "some just like the high level battle aspect/game" argument from earlier does not fly) the battle stuff tends immediately towards as good as it gets mons.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Quite sad to see this even if that Lugia is real it's probably cloned since he doesnt seem to have any problem with cloning.
And that was only one example...


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## Hozu (Dec 30, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> "When you ignore the rules of the gameplay, then there is no game. "
> No when you ignore the rules of the game you often end up with another game. Sure you are not playing the original game and as such comparing experiences gets tricky but there is still a game. See also "house rules".


 
Except when you're playing online against other players via Battle Spot, you're agreeing to play by a set of rules that disallows Pokémon that were edited/created by third party tools. Furthermore, if a different set of rules were to be used, both players would have to agree upon it. In most cases, it's one player forcing their rule-breaking Pokémon upon another person without their consent or knowledge.


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## Narayan (Dec 30, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Agreeable enough as long as we are talking about a broadly symmetrical game (some people are naturally stronger, smarter, more dexterous....). However I am not sure I can respect the grinding/levelling part of it, by all means have it as a component in the game and I can even see people enjoying it but as far as my respecting it well enough to diss those that would skip it then not so much.


Well, I don't really respect the grinding people that much, in fact, I myself cheat in most games because it's tiring. But I acknowledge that it was a cheat. 
I'm not really against legal pokemon, but just that I don't think legal pokemon has the right to be beside legitimate ones because legal ones weren't following the game's rules.  



FAST6191 said:


> If I can restore a save is that cheating or acceptable?


 
To me, it is cheating, and acceptable, as long as you don't put yourself in the same pedestal as someone who made very less mistakes or accepted his mistakes and turned it around back up.


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## hhs (Dec 30, 2013)

Any game that rewards *time spent* rather than *skill acquired* has crap priorities. That's why I prefer showdown to the actual game. I can play fast, set up fast, and engage in the battle of wits or as close to it as possible in this game format. 

People who want a game that rewards time spent are largely people who are awful who just want an advantage. Despite the fact that I don't respect that, I'm still kind enough to take my instant battling to a simulator.


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## Narayan (Dec 30, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> It is cheating, sure. Is it necessarily a binary thing (in sports if a team screws up but the advantage is to the opposition or no net benefit it is often left to play on) and is that always and without question wrong?


Because it falls upon the rules. Rules do change over time though so if one feels it is wrong, then some change of rules might be needed. Which is maybe why we have this discussion.



FAST6191 said:


> What is fairness? As far as I am aware the only rules I am truly bound by are the rules of physics. Everything else is up for debate.


Think of it as how humans "flew." We are flying but is still bound the the laws of physics using resources available within the rules of physics' boundaries. Comparable to RNG abuse. If someone however, can fly without following the rules of physics, then it's cheating.




FAST6191 said:


> "[time savers] then it can be used the same to justify any type and any amount of cheating in just about everything"
> 
> No it can not. Trouble is now we have to discuss what sort of game pokemon is using all the fun maths terms. My argument was that anybody (it does not take a ridiculous amount of time, any great amount of luck, quick reactions or any great mathematical, logical or literary skill) can have made a "perfect" team within the game by this point in time (others have claimed it is a couple of hours per mon, I am going with that). Other games may need skills in reactions, maths, logic.... to level or a time investment that is in the order of actual years of active play and those are a different type of game, not a great one necessarily to my mind but hey.
> Alternatively why do I need to play the 30 hour entrance exam to proper random online play (and online play has tended to needing said perfect mons)?
> ...


We could have said the exact same thing about duplicated or generated items in RF online Ph. Items popping out of nowhere. Everyone suddenly has the best sets and it became who can be focused on first. What used to be an mmorpg became something like fps maps.
Purging it wasn't easy because they were still valid by the game, eventually every upgraded items to a certain degree were wiped, legitimate or not. There were exceptions for those who have known to have their items before the cheatings.
Then it became a rule that any item upgraded max(+7) or almost max(+5,6) must have a video and a gm present for it not to be wiped. Every other item that the method of how it was obtained was not witnessed or confiremed, has a high chance of being wiped.



FAST6191 said:


> All cheats are not time savers. I often make cheats and hacks to make games harder or change the way they play at some level for it to be more fun for me.


Personally, I think mods are the compromise to cheating. They change how the game is, break some rules but creates new ones. Make the game easier, harder or even make it better.
Still, they are mods. Like what you said, in a way you'd end up with a different game. It's what happens with each version of Dota, you can't play with someone on 6.79b if you are on 6.79.



FAST6191 said:


> Is that a good comparison though? I have to have timing/reactions to play most MMORPGS, the time investment is quite literally up in the thousands of hours where you have to be properly dedicated to do it and the games usually still allow for lower level play (they kind of have to or they would not have anybody still paying/playing).
> 
> Pokemon is arguably a different sort of game -- no timings/skill/reactions needed to breed other than so much press A, the time investment is "long weekend" or a few hours per mon (to the point where everybody can easily get there) and though it is a bit more nebulous (assuming my "some just like the high level battle aspect/game" argument from earlier does not fly) the battle stuff tends immediately towards as good as it gets mons.


In a way, it is a good comparison. Both situations are the same in terms of skipping certain aspects of the game just because you find it tiring even though it's what the game requires you to.
Both are cheating.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

If you cant stand the rules of this game, then maybe you should play something else?
You earn great pokemon by spending time, having some luck, and use some brains and thats a part of the game.
What do you gain from winning with maxed out pokemon that you created with a computer software?
Do you feel proud that you won? To me thats just bullshit, I used to cheat too. But man that just takes away all the fun.

You pokemon loose value as you never spent much time getting them. 

There are many games out there where you could start the action right away and rewards you for skill. Mainly FPS games and racing games ofcource.
But still we see cheaters in those kind of games too. But it's always annoying and frustrating for those players who play by the rules.

What if more and more people are starting to create perfect pokemon like this. It would destroy the purpose of playing by the rules and getting great pokemon the fair way after you lose time after time to generated teams.
It's not supposed to be easy to obtain perfect pokemon and if everyone had maxed out pokemon they would loose their value and then the only things left of the game would be singel player and competitive fight between maxed out cheaters. 

This is not wow, the real game doesnt start @ max lvl. The real game starts when you use your first pokeball. Thats what pokemon is about, catching, training, breeding and using them in battles.
I found a great Pikachu with surperior IV's in the first forest. It didnt require any time at all, it was just luck. And that pokemon is lvl100 now and kicking some ass!
People who cheat should never be accepted no matter what. So stop bitching about not having the time to play its just silly.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> If you cant stand the rules of this game, then maybe you should play something else?





DaniPoo said:


> You earn great pokemon by spending time, having some luck, and use some brains and thats a part of the game.
> What do you gain from winning with maxed out pokemon that you created with a computer software?
> Do you feel proud that you won? To me thats just bullshit, I used to cheat too. But man that just takes away all the fun.


 
I would agree if legal hacked pokemon were the be all end all of winning. Fact is, if you don't know WTF you are doing, even with the best set of max ev/iv pokemon, you are going to fall flat on your face. Unfortunately, with the way the game has become, in order to be competitive, one MUST max out their EV/IV. And unless they want to spend all day biking around and hatching different monsters in order to try different sets, you sort of have to resort to doing what all of the other competitive folks do; import generated monsters.

EDIT: Not sure why it quoted you twice O.o


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Well, I have been able to score some wins with my pokemon that are far from perfect.
And yeah even some youngsters I know have been able to hold their own online a few times. 
But I can almost bet my ass that it's going to change once the pokemon bank is released outside of Japan.
Yeah its probably going to be too difficult for us to keep up. 

And it's kinda sad, Nintendo has clearly made these games mainly for the kids since the first games came out.
But most kids dont stand a chance anymore because of all the "grownups" with their perfect pokemon teames.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Well, I have been able to score some wins with my pokemon that are far from perfect.
> And yeah even some youngsters I know have been able to hold their own online a few times.
> But I can almost bet my ass that it's going to change once the pokemon bank is released outside of Japan.
> Yeah its probably going to be too difficult for us to keep up.
> ...


 
I suggest that the very problem with the game is how much time is required to be put into getting a competitive monster. Why even have IV's at all. If, as you say, the game is for kids, the kids aren;t mostly breeding these competitive monsters. So why make a mechanic that alienates what you say is the player base?

I would be perfectly happy if they got rid of EV/IV. Catch a charmander? Mine is the same as yours is the same as Timmy's. Let our battle prowess decide the victor. Not the stats of our mons.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Well, im not sure I have a good answer for that, but I dont think Nintendo wanted us to be able to figure out IV's and how they in the first place, I belive they just wanted to make a pokemon randomly unique.
But since hackers made eveything that was hidden public, My guess is that Nintendo just decided to play along. I agree with that the games may hade been better without IV's


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

I find that EV values are part of the competitive aspect, but the IV values just don't have any overall fit in the meta game as a whole, as everyone will most likely stack perfect IVs without a second thought.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

It's also worth noting that there are brackets for a reason. Those with hacked monsters will be at the top. Those without, at the bottom. If your argument is that you want to play with only people who bred and caught their monsters legit, you will. Because you won't move up on the ladder. 





DaniPoo said:


> Well, im not sure I have a good answer for that, but I dont think Nintendo wanted us to be able to figure out IV's and how they in the first place, I belive they just wanted to make a pokemon randomly unique.
> But since hackers made eveything that was hidden public, My guess is that Nintendo just decided to play along. I agree with that the games may hade been better without IV's


I am unsure if you are aware of this, but there is an IV checker in Kiloud after you've beaten the game. His very purpose is to tell you when a pokemon has perfect or 0 (since that, too, is sometimes desirable) IV. No, they may not have intended for us to be able to put a number value to it. But it's pretty obvious that "as good as it gets" means max. Therefore the IV value can be out of 100, or 19654, or any other huber. Fact remains there is an easily documented way to check those values. Best=Best.

It's also worth noting that GF has hinted at greatly altering IV/EV's in gen 7...


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Thats what I ment with "Nintendo decided to play along".


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Thats what I ment with "Nintendo decided to play along".


 
I get that, but... why add fuel to the fire (speaking of Nintendo here). "Oh well, hackers be hackers, let's play along" is a pretty poor way/reason to implement something in your game if you truly don't want people hacking...


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> I get that, but... why add fuel to the fire (speaking of Nintendo here). "Oh well, hackers be hackers, let's play along" is a pretty poor way/reason to implement something in your game if you truly don't want people hacking...


 
I _think _(speculation face engaged) that it's more of a let people play how they want sort of mentality. If people want to go in and make their teams strong and competitive, it's kinda like, hey why not give them the resources to at least see if they are on the right track?


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

No, thats not really what I was saying that they were thinking. Its more like they know that people are aware that EV's exist now, so instead of trying to ignore that, they add a feature to help people creat great IV pokemon without having to hack the game.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> I _think _(speculation face engaged) that it's more of a let people play how they want sort of mentality. If people want to go in and make their teams strong and competitive, it's kinda like, hey why not give them the resources to at least see if they are on the right track?


 
Oh, I am sure it is. I am just saying that if EV/IV were discovered by hackers, as was posited, wouldn't it make sense not to reinforce that at all? Instead, they go how many generations with the same flipping problem and are now talking about nixing a formula that clearly doesn't work in the next gen.



DaniPoo said:


> No, thats not really what I was saying that they were thinking. Its more like they know that people are aware that EV's exist now, so instead of trying to ignore that, they add a feature to help people creat great IV pokemon without having to hack the game.


 
Maybe I am the one not being clear, since Ryokuki essentially said the same thing. What I am saying is, they are perpetuating people's desire to just hack the monsters. Why? Because they know you have to strive for the perfect EV. (not to mention legitimately gaining a "perfect" monster is about as boring as it ever gets, unless you like excite bike without the excite) They know you need to bike around for dozens of hours to get the team you want. So they bypass it. Nintendo thinking that you are going to do anything BUT reinforce hackers desire to hack by pointing out the EV/IV have great value is silly, to say the least.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Well they have given us atleast two ways to shorten the time needed to hatch an egg. so they must be aware that many people spend lots of time hatching them 
With pokemon X and Y I felt like nintendo really tried to please all types of players. Im not saying that Nintendo is ok with hackers and I never did.
But they are aware of them and probably that most cheaters and hackers havnt got very much time to play the game  hahaha


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Well they have given us atleast two ways to shorten the time needed to hatch an egg. so they most be aware that many people spend lots of time hatching them
> With pokemon X and Y I felt like nintendo really tried to please all types of players. Im not saying that Nintendo is ok with hackers and I never did.
> But they are aware of them and probably that most cheaters and hackers havnt got very much time to play the game  hahaha


 

They did shorten it, this much is true. But it's hard to argue that it isn't a PITA to still try and hatch your monster with the IV set AND move set that you actually want. And for what? Honestly, PLEASE tell me (anyone) a legitimate reason why I should feel like I have accomplished something by biking back and forth by the river time and time again until a dice roll gives me what I want. 

As far as time to play the game, I look at it a little differently than you, perhaps. It's not that I don't have time to play (I play too much as is lol). It's that I'd rather spend time battling than biking around. Because the more I battle, the better I get with anticipating strategy and know what sorts of builds go well together and what don't. Conversely, they guy who spends time breeding gets good at absolutely nothing. Once you learn how breeding works, (which anyone can do in roughly an hour or two... believe it or not this is the first pokemon series that I picked up since gen 1 and EVERYTHING was new to me, but I learned, AND I took the time to breed a handful of 5IV monsters) the more time you spend on it nets you nothing more. With battling, the more time you spend battling, the better you become.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Yeah, but your 5IV team is your award for the effort spent in catching, breeding and training them. And that is fair.
But skipping all that is unfair. Even if you suck at the battles. Atleast thats my point of view.
To me that is as low as buying a wow account with max lvl characters and great gear and then go PVP.
One may argue that it wouldnt be unfair because anyone who think its worth it could do the same.
But to me its the same as cheating. Everyone should have to go trough the same process to get on top.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Yeah, but your 5IV team is your award for the effort spent in catching, breeding and training them. And that fair.
> But skipping all that is unfair. Even if you suck at the battles. Atleast thats my point of view.
> To me that is as low as buying a wow account with max lvl characters and great gear and then go PVP.
> One may argue that it wouldnt be unfair because anyone who think its worth it could do the same.
> But to me its the same as cheating. Everyone should have to go trough the same process to get on top.


 

My very point is I am being "awarded" to do an extremely tedious, monotonous task that is neither fun, nor improves my gaming ability.

As far as WoW, I haven never bought an account, but I have been in among top 50 US guilds back in the days of ICC. And honestly, I could care less about a guy who buys an account. Because, more often than not, they are terrible. Gaining gear in that game actually required you to achieve something more than just running back and forth and hoping you win a dice roll. It would be nothing but BAD ASS if you attained pokemon through going up in battling ranks (a la PVP in wow). Nope. You attain pokemon by biking and swapping out destiny knots.

I suppose your argument is that is an achievement. My argument is that it isn't. I didn't achieve anything. I got n accolade for repeating a mind numbing task over and over again. I don't feel that is gaming. I don't feel that validates any of my abilities in any way meaningful. If you are happy with that, that is certainly your prerogative. And I am not judging you for wanting to do that. But I don't. I have more fun going straight to battles. And if that means you want to judge me, or think I am cheating, or what have you, I am perfectly fine with that too. I am likely not even hurting your game, because I am likely playing with others who did the same as me, in higher tiers, while you play with those who do not, in lower tiers.


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## Narayan (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Yeah, but your 5IV team is your award for the effort spent in catching, breeding and training them. And that is fair.
> But skipping all that is unfair. Even if you suck at the battles. Atleast thats my point of view.
> To me that is as low as buying a wow account with max lvl characters and great gear and then go PVP.
> One may argue that it wouldnt be unfair because anyone who think its worth it could do the same.
> But to me its the same as cheating. Everyone should have to go trough the same process to get on top.


 
Off-topic but I think buying Max lvl characters would still fall into fair since you are paying the price of that character, literally. And the character itself and it's items made legitimately. It's more similar to buying legitimate pokemons.
I don't mind if people use different process, if it's one of how it's should be. in some games there are different ways to reach your goal, some are simply better than the others. (microtransactions, pay2get it sooner.)


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

Narayan said:


> Off-topic but I think buying Max lvl characters would still fall into fair since you are paying the price of that character, literally. And the character itself and it's items made legitimately. It's more similar to buying legitimate pokemons.
> I don't mind if people use different process, if it's one of how it's should be. in some games there are different ways to reach your goal, some are simply better than the others. (microtransactions, pay2get it sooner.)


 
Just an FYI, most companies, including Blizzard and Nintendo, have copyright protections against things like this. Not sure if it's the case where you are, but it is literally illegal to sell characters, unless permission is expressly granted by the maker. That doesn't keep people from doing it though.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> Just an FYI, most companies, including Blizzard and Nintendo, have copyright protections against things like this. Not sure if it's the case where you are, but it is literally illegal to sell characters, unless permission is expressly granted by the maker. That doesn't keep people from doing it though.


 

It's kinda like piracy, illegal to do, yet still happens. I know some people who have successfully sold many accounts and made KILLINGS out of it.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> It's kinda like piracy, illegal to do, yet still happens. I know some people who have successfully sold many accounts and made KILLINGS out of it.


 

Technically it is piracy, in terms of US laws, but that always baffles me. The content creator isn't missing out on any potential revenue. It's not like you are selling a bootleg. The buyer cannot use the "product" without having paid the content creator for it anyway...But you are right. One of my guild leaders sold his account the first time he quite. He got about $3000 for it. He did, however have all pets, mounts, and vanity crap in the game that existed at that time. So if you calculated the dollars per hour he made, it was probably actually pennies lol.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Im not sure I view it like that either.. It's not an achievement that you have spent your time biking back and forth. 
But it becomes that much more of an achievement to win battles with the pokemon you have got fair and square instead of winning with some ljuicy generated poké's.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Im not sure I view it like that either.. It's not an achievement that you have spent your time biking back and forth.
> But it becomes that much more of an achievement to win battles with the pokemon you have got fair and square instead of winning with some ljuicy generated poké's.


 

Fair point, but you can also argue that let's say you're some fresh kid with your level 75 guys, you hop online, only to be raped repeatedly by a weather team... and then proceed to wonder why things went south.


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## Narayan (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> Just an FYI, most companies, including Blizzard and Nintendo, have copyright protections against things like this. Not sure if it's the case where you are, but it is literally illegal to sell characters, unless permission is expressly granted by the maker. That doesn't keep people from doing it though.


 
Yeah, i was only commenting about RMT part because in generating pokemons you don't lose time or money, while gaining perfect IV pokemon.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Im not sure I view it like that either.. It's not an achievement that you have spent your time biking back and forth.
> But it becomes that much more of an achievement to win battles with the pokemon you have got fair and square instead of winning with some ljuicy generated poké's.


 
For me, if it wash't an achievement to acquire them through hatching, it sure as heck won't matter if I am then winning battles (or not) with them. Especially when I know the guys at the top aren't wasting their time biking either.

I also haven't even touched on Pokemon acquired via trade. Lets say I breed a 5IV shiny (or whatever) and trade it for another. How do I know it wasn't generated by someone or cloned by someone else? Am I some sort of cheater for having used that monster in battle then? (actually a read a hilarious comment, maybe on this board, comparing using genned mon acquired in trade to receiving stolen goods. You can believe the LOLs commenced).


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Hahaha, I guess you guys figured out by now that I dont aprove of cheaters in online games. 
I dont see the point in debating further right now.


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## Narayan (Dec 30, 2013)

This achievement and stuff, wasn't the reward of tedious biking and hatching...perfect IV pokemons? what else were you looking for?
I think it's time Gamefreak change their mechanics and remove IV like what some of the replies I see here. Problem is how to make them. 
It's easy with games like Dota 2 because the developers listens to suggestions all the time.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

We also forget Nintendo is years behind in online infrastructuring too... So changes might come either never or in a long long time.


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## Sheimi (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> I also haven't even touched on Pokemon acquired via trade. Lets say I breed a 5IV shiny (or whatever) and trade it for another. How do I know it wasn't generated by someone or cloned by someone else?


There is a list of clones on a google doc. (I cannot find the link atm). BUT, if you are that worried that it is a clone. Then breed the pokemon.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

And yeah its hard to know wether or not a pokemon is hacked.
And I wouldnt call the person who got a perfect hacked pokemon from the GTS a cheater if he wasnt aware that it was hacked somehow.
But its still lower the value of those great pokemon if people start to flood the GTS with perfect pokemon. Haha pokemon inflation


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

Narayan said:


> This achievement and stuff, wasn't the reward of tedious biking and hatching...perfect IV pokemons? what else were you looking for?
> I think it's time Gamefreak change their mechanics and remove IV like what some of the replies I see here. Problem is how to make them.
> It's easy with games like Dota 2 because the developers listens to suggestions all the time.


 
If I wasn't lazy I would look up the press release where someone from GF basically said this is the road they are headed down. EV/IV are literally the thing (well maybe shines too but that doesn't matter since it's all aesthetic) that drives hacks, gens, clones, etc. Level the playing field completely by getting rid of these stats that don't actually need to be there, and you get rid of the controversy overnight.

I am going to come out and say that if you want to be competitive, TRULY competitive, you are going to clone, or gen (notice I don't say HACK, because moves that have no business being on a mon have no business being in the game, PERIOD). If you legitimately DO NOT do that (and I honestly believe such a person doesn't exist) you are literally spending hundreds of hours just getting your proven team built and ready for tournament.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> If I wasn't lazy I would look up the press release where someone from GF basically said this is the road they are headed down. EV/IV are literally the thing (well maybe shines too but that doesn't matter since it's all aesthetic) that drives hacks, gens, clones, etc. Level the playing field completely by getting rid of these stats that don't actually need to be there, and you get rid of the controversy overnight.
> 
> I am going to come out and say that if you want to be competitive, TRULY competitive, you are going to clone, or gen (notice I don't say HACK, because moves that have no business being on a mon have no business being in the game, PERIOD). If you legitimately DO NOT do that (and I honestly believe such a person doesn't exist) you are literally spending hundreds of hours just getting your proven team built and ready for tournament.


 

...which was what I was indirectly saying in the first post.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

Sheimi said:


> There is a list of clones on a google doc. (I cannot find the link atm). BUT, if you are that worried that it is a clone. Then breed the pokemon.


 
The argument was made that kids play this game. Kids are not going to go out and read google docs to make sure the monster isn;t a clone. Furthermore, anything generated today can be a clone tomorrow. I can breed a monster, clone it, and trade it to someone. There will literally be no record of that being a clone at the point of sale. So what, I am supposed to check and see if my monster is in this "clone database" every once and a while? Talk about adding more micromanaging to a game that has no business requiring more.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

I honestly feel like that clone list adds nothing but serious paranoia. It's like, oh, beware of any and all trades because your trade might not be legitimate. That wouldn't be a conducive environment to play games in, not exactly.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> And yeah its hard to know wether or not a pokemon is hacked.
> And I wouldnt call the person who got a perfect hacked pokemon from the GTS a cheater if he wasnt aware that it was hacked somehow.
> But its still lower the value of those great pokemon if people start to flood the GTS with perfect pokemon. Haha pokemon inflation


 
It's not a matter of IF. These monsters are already all over the place. There is no turning back.



Ryukouki said:


> I honestly feel like that clone list adds nothing but serious paranoia. It's like, oh, beware of any and all trades because your trade might not be legitimate. That wouldn't be a conducive environment to play games in, not exactly.


 
Nope. And furthermore there isn't a whole lot anyone can actually do about it, including GF, because, statistically speaking, a clone can happen naturally. Chaances are extremely slim. BUT, the fact that it can happen sort of means that clones of legit monsters are also legit monsters, by default.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> Nope. And furthermore there isn't a whole lot anyone can actually do about it, including GF, because, statistically speaking, a clone can happen naturally. Chaances are extremely slim. BUT, the fact that it can happen sort of means that clones of legit monsters are also legit monsters, by default.


 

It's not even a slim chance, I'm actually pretty proficient at it, as I had a box of German Xerneas laying around at some point.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> It's not even a slim chance, I'm actually pretty proficient at it, as I had a box of German Xerneas laying around at some point.


 
I think you misread what I said.

I am saying that you have a clone with all identifiers randomly generated that also occurs randomly on another cartridge somewhere in the world. It's not you doing an exploit to make the clone happen. It happens "naturally".


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## Ryukouki (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> I think you misread what I said.
> 
> I am saying that you have a clone with all identifiers randomly generated that also occurs randomly on another cartridge somewhere in the world. It's not you doing an exploit to make the clone happen. It happens "naturally".


 

OH. That makes more sense.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Well, with the same ID and secret ID and caught by the same trainer?


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Well, with the same ID and secret ID and caught by the same trainer?


 
Sure. How many people do you think call themselves "ash" or leave the default name (come to think of it I don't remember if there was a default name, was there?)? Its technically possible for you to catch a "clone" on your own cart too. And since that is POSSIBLE, GF can;t really ban these mons.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Good point, but still a very small chance that every other ID and stat would match. Not impossible.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Good point, but still a very small chance that every other ID and stat would match. Not impossible.


 
I'm not arguing how small the chance is though. I made the statement simply to point out that clones exist, and since they can technically exist "naturally", they will continue to exist without being banned. So onward goes the never-ending cycle. Which brings us back to... drum roll please... if you want to be competitive you are going to clone/gen your mon. 

EDIT: By the way, chances become much MUCH higher when chaining pokemon in grass/flowers which, unless I am mistaken, is a completely acceptable method of catching "rare" monsters, is it not?


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Unless nintendo update the game to add a new ID to every pokemon, like for instance your 3DS serialnumber. atleast that would prevent any new clones


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Unless nintendo update the game to add a new ID to every pokemon, like for instance your 3DS serialnumber. atleast that would prevent any new clones


 
They probably wouldn't do that, not unless they went 100% digital, for a few reasons.
1. Consoles can be swapped/sold
2. Consoles can break
3. It would still be technically possible to catch your own clone
4. They are already talking about getting rid of IV/EV for next gen, and the damage is already irreversible in THIS gen, so the point is sort of moot.

Really, the best way to stop all of this (outside of just getting rid of EV which is th abetter idea IMO) is to rely more heavily on server checks. This would essentially make the game an online game, and thus not so conducive to being a handheld.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

I dont see the point in the first two reasons. I dont mean that the pokemon would be bound to that same 3DS but still pokemon caugh on that 3DS would carry a console unique ID that no other person could get.
I see your point in the 3rd reason but I dont think it would be impossible to prevent a clone encounters from happening locally.


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## AaronUzumaki (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't know about online play, as I don't battle online outside of battles with my friends, but as far as official Play! Pokemon organized tournament play is concerned, competitors are forbidden by the X and Y series rules to use transferred Pokemon in tournaments. So, if it doesn't affect organized play, it doesn't affect me. As far as online goes, Game Freak could always implement a patch that adds an online battle mode which doesn't allow the use of transferred Pokemon.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Yeah and then the hackers will make it som that the pokemon looks like they are hatched in Kalos...


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> I dont see the point in the first two reasons. I dont mean that the pokemon would be bound to that same 3DS but still pokemon caugh on that 3DS would carry a console unique ID that no other person could get.
> I see your point in the 3rd reason but I dont think it would be impossible to prevent a clone encounters from happening locally.


 
I sell my ads to another guy. That guy now has a chance to catch a clone.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Sorry now Im not really sure I understand what you are saying. Sell what?


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Sorry now Im not really sure I understand what you are saying. Sell what?


 
I sell my 3DS



AaronUzumaki said:


> I don't know about online play, as I don't battle online outside of battles with my friends, but as far as official Play! Pokemon organized tournament play is concerned, competitors are forbidden by the X and Y series rules to use transferred Pokemon in tournaments. So, if it doesn't affect organized play, it doesn't affect me. As far as online goes, Game Freak could always implement a patch that adds an online battle mode which doesn't allow the use of transferred Pokemon.


The concern that the person who hates genned/cloned mon to begin with will have is the ease of breeding from genned mon (wow did I say ease of breeding for reals?????)

I transfer over 2 mons, one male one female, with the moves I want, and breed away. I will have a 5IV bred in kalos with the abilities I want in no time flat. More work than just gunning? Absolutely. A lot LESS work than breeding from scratch? You bet.

Until (if) we get gunning working for kalos monsters, really the only thing that this has stopped is people having 5/6IV shines in battles.

Do I have an issue with that? Eh. Not really. It's annoying, but there will still be cloning.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

I still dont see the problem. Nintendo could just say, ok we can let 3 clones pass. That means that you have to encounter 3 clones on the same 3ds but on different savefiles. 
That would be so extremely unlikely if you add your serial numer into the mix that you'll have a better chance bruteforcing PS4...


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> I still dont see the problem. Nintendo could just say, ok we can let 3 clones pass. 3 clone would be so extremely unlikely if you ad your searial numer into the mix that you'll have a better chance bruteforcing PS4...


 
But they aren't going to say that, because the chance is still there. That is exactly my point. (and I mentioned this a few posts back, but the chances become significantly higher when you chain monsters with poke radar because after a couple dozen chains you are virtually guaranteed a 5IV monster.

The answer to "stopping genned monsters" is not "maybe banning legit monsters". That's just silly. (By the way that could do that now, and last year, and the year before if that was their methodology)

And not to mention the fact that if there is a known number of clones let to pass, know what happens? Cloning still goes crazy, except that ales of cloned monsters goes up. Nintendo doesn't want to create a black/grey market of digital content that they aren't making a dime on. I clone my clones to make breeding stock so that I can have an easy breeder out of it. Then clone those perfect offspring... see what I am doing You are slowing the process. You are not eliminating it.

But all this brings me back to the whole point of... why do all of this convoluted nonsense at all when you can literally get rid of the problem in the first place?


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Well if they just added the birthday for each pokemon that would solve that problem.
You cant meet two copies at the same time

so the new security would add console ID as well as Date and time into the mix.
I cant see any flaw in that

That would make cloning more obvious and without misstaking any *real* pokemon for clones.


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## daniilS (Dec 30, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> Well if they just added the birthday for each pokemon that would solve that problem.
> You cant meet two copies at the same time
> 
> so the new security would add console ID as well as Date and time into the mix.
> ...


Add time to date and it will work even better. And as soon as you get a pokemon in a legit way, such as catching or trading it, its data, including console id and receiving date+time get stored somewhere in compressed format. When sending out a pokemon, it gets checked. If its data isn't present there, that means it was cheated in/cloned.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

daniilS said:


> Add time to date and it will work even better. And as soon as you get a pokemon in a legit way, such as catching or trading it, its data, including console id and receiving date+time get stored somewhere in compressed format. When sending out a pokemon, it gets checked. If its data isn't present there, that means it was cheated in/cloned.


 


DaniPoo said:


> Well if they just added the birthday for each pokemon that would solve that problem.
> You cant meet two copies at the same time
> 
> so the new security would add console ID as well as Date and time into the mix.
> ...


 

But date and time is changeable on your console. Very easily in fact. So that's out the window.

The problem is, with an authentication system, you don't want to start marking something legitimate as fake because it "probably is fake". In today's system, meaning the way it is now, something that looks like a clone probably is a clone, even though it doesn't, by law of probability, HAVE to be. But they don't mark it a clone and ban it because there is a chance to do that.

Listen, we are probably not going to come up with a plan to "fix the hacking of pokemon" problem. GF, which has a boatload of money than everyone in this thread combined have undeniably thought long and hard about these issues. They are only banning pokemon that cannot possibly exist, not even accidentally for a reason; they aren't about to get into a habit of banning monsters that might be legit.

And again... why do all of this convoluted nonsense at all when you can literally get rid of the problem in the first place? Get rid of this stupid dice roll, as they are already planning to do.

And here is another thing I just thought of regardning this "clone database" that intend should keep...

Pokemon is a dynamic trading situation. I can have said pokemon one day and trade it t someone else across the globe the next. So long as said pokemon is not simultaneously in play with its clone, there really is no ban it. Unless of course the suggestion is to ban the pokemon ID altogether, which I think would be equally problematic for those thinking they received the monster legitimately.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

No its not out of the window, think about it a litle more. It wouldnt be possible without exploiting the machine software. And if that was the case then Nintendo has no obligation to accept the pokemon as legal right  Two identical pokemon with exactly the same values and coming from the same machine at the same time could NEVER happen naturally. And thats why nintendo could block that pokemon and if then wanted ban that player.

Well this security would render cloning completely useless but in would not stop generated pokemon.


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## KazoWAR (Dec 30, 2013)

If you can't play the game it was meant to be played then you shouldn't be playing at all.


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## Narayan (Dec 30, 2013)

lordofthereef said:


> I am going to come out and say that if you want to be competitive, TRULY competitive, you are going to clone, or gen (notice I don't say HACK, because moves that have no business being on a mon have no business being in the game, PERIOD). If you legitimately DO NOT do that (and I honestly believe such a person doesn't exist) you are literally spending hundreds of hours just getting your proven team built and ready for tournament.


 
Well, since nothing is being done against it, cheating became a must.
Like I mentioned in my post which mentioned RF Online, during the period where nothing has been done, only 2 paths were available to the players, duplicate(clone) or at least obtain a duplicated item to survive pvps with people who cheated, or quit playing. I quit it because I dislike having everyone having almost exactly having the same items, like you're wearing a uniform.
Pvp wasn't the same because the items I earned legitimately doesn't mean anything to those who duplicated items. had no choice but to use rmt and buy better items. Though eventually I also quit because I couldn't take in the corruption.
I came back only after the purge but it was too late, game was already dying and being milked. 

I doubt many would quit playing pokemon and would rather gladly join in the cheating.


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## Sheimi (Dec 30, 2013)

Either play with clones or simply do not play Pokemon at all.


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## mkdms14 (Dec 30, 2013)

The thing is there are some pokemon that were in the code but for some odd reason either they were never released to the public outside of Japan or had event release that either no one heard about or few people went to it.  Acouple come to mind like Mew for Pokemon Blue and red.  I heard there was an event for that but could never find any accurate evidence pointing to it in USA.  Same with Celibi for gold and Silver.  So as long as there is a way to get them with out breaking an arm or a leg I am all for it.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

mkdms14 said:


> The thing is there are some pokemon that were in the code but for some odd reason either they were never released to the public outside of Japan or had event release that either no one heard about or few people went to it. Acouple come to mind like Mew for Pokemon Blue and red. I heard there was an event for that but could never find any accurate evidence pointing to it in USA. Same with Celibi for gold and Silver. So as long as there is a way to get them with out breaking an arm or a leg I am all for it.


 
Toys R US did a release for Mew in Blue And Red. I remember being there for that. But your point still stands. Limited distro should either not be allowed to be battled or it shouldn't be limited distro.

From IGN:


> _For those of you who have caught 'em all but are still desperate to add to that collection, November 26th is your day. That's the day Mew, Pokémon #151, comes to Toys "R" Us all across the country._
> 
> _As many Pokémaniacs know, Mew is the most rare Pokémon of them all. There is no possible way to catch him or trade for him in either Pokémon Red, Blue, or Yellow cartridges. The only way to snag this critter, up until now, was to be a Nintendo Power contest winner snag him at a special Pokémon event._
> 
> ...


 
I don't recall anyone being turned away, by the way. LOL!



DaniPoo said:


> No its not out of the window, think about it a litle more. It wouldnt be possible without exploiting the machine software. And if that was the case then Nintendo has no obligation to accept the pokemon as legal right  Two identical pokemon with exactly the same values and coming from the same machine at the same time could NEVER happen naturally. And thats why nintendo could block that pokemon and if then wanted ban that player.


 

No... I can change the time and date stamp of my game (you can't possibly be referring to this as exploiting the machine software, right?  ). And nintendo has never decided that was illegal (nor should they). The simply fact that I rolled my time and date stamp back and forth (for whatever reason) shouldn't render my pokemon illegal. And, in fact, Nintendo themselves have labeled this as "time traveling" in games such as ACNL, so they actually condone it.

I think you are thinking of this in terms of an EULA. And breeding a freaking pokemon can;t have an EULA. It can;t have fine print. I shouldn't have to read the do's and fonts of lending my game, lending my ds, changing my date and time stamp all in the name of making sure I don't accidentally breed/catch or otherwise find a pokemon identical to mine and someone else's. That's just silly.

I am saying that my stance is that if there is even a small chance for an identical pokemon to LEGITIMATELY be generated, Nintendo and Gamefreak have not created a good enough system where they should be banning monsters or players because they are "most likely illegal". Changing the system (getting rid of it all together) would pretty much defeat almost all of the demand for this overnight.



Narayan said:


> Well, since nothing is being done against it, cheating became a must.
> Like I mentioned in my post which mentioned RF Online, during the period where nothing has been done, only 2 paths were available to the players, duplicate(clone) or at least obtain a duplicated item to survive pvps with people who cheated, or quit playing. I quit it because I dislike having everyone having almost exactly having the same items, like you're wearing a uniform.
> Pvp wasn't the same because the items I earned legitimately doesn't mean anything to those who duplicated items. had no choice but to use rmt and buy better items. Though eventually I also quit because I couldn't take in the corruption.
> I came back only after the purge but it was too late, game was already dying and being milked.
> ...


 

I posit that if "everyone" is "cheating", then it's not cheating at all. Rather, the game has been adopted as something else by it's fan base than what its creators intended. I know we touched on this somewhat before. I honestly don't see a problem with that. I'd love for game freak to just sell me a battle game where all you do is build monsters from scratch (like a character creation screen) and battle them. And I bet it would sell incredibly well too. Since they don't do that, people have taken it into their own hands to do that themselves.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 30, 2013)

KazoWAR said:


> If you can't play the game it was meant to be played then you shouldn't be playing at all.


Can't or won't?

Similarly can I point and laugh at the nuzlocke people?


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## DaniPoo (Dec 30, 2013)

Gamefreak should have all right to suspect this as som kind of exploitation if they wanted since it is just silly.
You mean that the OT, ID, Secret ID, IV's, EV'S, Ability, Nature, Moves, Order of moves, held item, pokeball, encountered location, Console unique ID and date and time would be identical and pass right trough the security without nintando being able to do anyting about it?
Yeah maybe they could let one or two cases like this slip. But if they see lots of cases like this then they would really do something about it. Because then it just cant be a coincident
They could easily have you accepting new terms in order to get the online features.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 30, 2013)

But the point you are dancing around is they are NOT doing any that. I am simply giving you a reason WHY not. GF has the right to put into the fine print that after 400 hours of play your game will no longer work. They have the "right" to do almost whatever they want because, well, THEY OWN THE RIGHTS to these games. What I am saying is they won't do that, for the reasons I mentioned above. They realize they have an imperfect system and aren't about to start banning legitimate monsters because they weren't able to make a system that detected them properly in the first place. You may be ok with banning someone's monster for changing the timestamp. I am saying I am not, especially when there are games where Nintendo has mentioned that it's legitimate to do so. It causes confusion amongst players and, as mentioned many times in this very thread, "this is a kid's game".

As for updating their on

THEIR ANSWER IS GETTING RID OF THE SYSTEM ALLTOGETHER COME NEXT GEN. (this is probably the last time I will say that, but maybe not lol)



FAST6191 said:


> Can't or won't?
> 
> Similarly can I point and laugh at the nuzlocke people?


 
I think the argument here is that the legitimate players, who feel there is some value in breeding and training your own monsters, are going into battle and getting rolled by kids with beefed up monsters with perfect stats and move sets.

I can respect the argument, but would like to point out that many (I won't say most because I don't know) people who use these monsters don't do so to "pwn n00bs", but rather to better their own battling skills.


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## Chocolina (Dec 31, 2013)

If you used any tools to augment your pokemon, then that pokemon shouldn't, in a morale standpoint, be allowed to fight online, regardless if the stats are in your favor or not.

That said, its not the matter of right or wrong, but "who the fuck cares?" Got bored of that game in a month. I won't be returning back to it.
Cheat if you want, its not like you're any different from the other cheaters of all the other online games...

That "legal stats" excuse is as valid as people saying that made up excuse "You can only keep this rom for 24 hours and then you have to delete it." just to pirate... As if that excuse would even matter in a court.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 31, 2013)

Chocolina said:


> That "legal stats" excuse is as valid as people saying that made up excuse "You can only keep this rom for 24 hours and then you have to delete it." just to pirate... As if that excuse would even matter in a court.


 

Well, except that in creating a mon you aren't actually breaking any laws... whereas with rome you absolutely are. And in many cases (The US for sure), even if you own the original game, you are still breaking the law. Even ripping mp3's from CDs is a grey area that the music industry essentially gave up on since there is no real way police it.

My point is, comparing legal activities to illegal is, well, too much of a stretch, IMO anyway.

By the way, I can completely respect your moral dilemma/highground. What I wonder is your stance on receiving a generated (referring to specifically monsters generated outside of the game) mon in a trade, where there is literally no way for the recipient to know whether the monster actually came from a game, or an iPhone app.


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## Chocolina (Dec 31, 2013)

If its not legit, then it shouldn't be considered legal even if you're not tweaking things to your favor, even if you're tweaking things to work against you. Unless you're fighting against another pokesavers, then the opponents aren't equals...

But whatever, its just a children's card game.


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## lordofthereef (Dec 31, 2013)

Chocolina said:


> If its not legit, then it shouldn't be considered legal even if you're not tweaking things to your favor, even if you're tweaking things to work against you. Unless you're fighting against another pokesavers, then the opponents aren't equals...
> 
> But whatever, its just a children's card game.


 
Not sure if this was in response to my question, but you didn't answer it if it was.


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## ferofax (Dec 31, 2013)

This is like playing Monopoly, where legit players play by the rules, but others bend or break the rules, like when they don't like the amount of their monopoly money _(don't like the pokemons they get legitimately)_, they take *another* *whole wad of cash*_ (legal/illegal Pokemon_) from* another Monopoly board*_ (PokeSav or Pokegen)_.

Same Monopoly money, just from a different board.

The act of taking money from another board (assuming somebody had two sets of Monopoly board) is just like generating legal Pokemons --_ they take all the hard work out._ Instead of having to actually play and win the money (or grinding in Pokemon), you just go grab another board and take all the money there and "inject" that into your current game.

But hey, not judging here. Just putting that analogy out there.


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## DaniPoo (Dec 31, 2013)

I agree with ferofax.

Lordofthereef, im not dancig around the fact that Nintendo havnt done anything about it yet.
Im just saying that it's possible that they will cause they really could and they should.
You cant expect them to have sympathy for your 400 hours of exploiting their software. 
Only the cheaters would take the fall, and even for them it woulnt be a big one.            
Just that it would become impossible to clone pokemon from that point forward. the damage already done cant be undone.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 31, 2013)

I am not sure I can follow along with that logic ferofax (money in Monopoly is not functionally identical to Pokemon in Pokemon) though it does rather nicely bring me to my general observation.

It seems there are two broad divisions and to bring it in line with the theme of the title it seems to be between the letter of the game and the spirit of the game.

One is considering the functional effects.

The other seems to be the spirit of the game as defined by the game makers is law. Even if that means you have to put in dozens of hours of busywork to get to the interesting part, a problem that has caused many games to fall short of their potential or potential at points. Previous discussions ( http://gbatemp.net/threads/pokémon-casual-childrens-game-or-competitive-strategy.355943/ ) covered my opinion there -- I do not think pokemon represents a particularly interesting strategy as far as game analysis/the mathematics of the goes, but that was a different discussion.

I am not sure either term lines up all that well with the legal equivalents. However in both systems it is quite possible to float between the options with every other breath and a lot of the time it is not really reconcilable which is what we seem to have encountered here.


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## pwsincd (Dec 31, 2013)

whats pokemon ?


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## tatripp (Dec 31, 2013)

It should be legal because it has to be legal. There is no way to catch the people who create legal pokemon by cheating because they appear the exact same as regular pokemon.


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## tbgtbg (Dec 31, 2013)

KazoWAR said:


> If you can't play the game it was meant to be played then you shouldn't be playing at all.



Playing games the way you want rather than how it was meant to be played long predates pokeymans. Or even video games. Have you never played Monopoly with the free parking rule? Or any version of poker other than 5 card draw? Some of the best, most fun games of Uno I've ever played involved massive amounts of cheating and collusion. 

This has little to do with whether cheating in pokeymans is okay or not, just the silly notion that you have to play a game the way the creator intends rather than how you want to play.



ferofax said:


> This is like playing Monopoly, where legit players play by the rules, but others bend or break the rules, like when they don't like the amount of their monopoly money _(don't like the pokemons they get legitimately)_, they take *another* *whole wad of cash*_ (legal/illegal Pokemon_) from* another Monopoly board*_ (PokeSav or Pokegen)_.
> 
> Same Monopoly money, just from a different board.
> 
> ...



Injecting money into Monopoly actually IS playing it as intended. There's a rule that the game (unlike the players) never runs out of money. If the bank runs out of bills, they suggest writing denominations on scraps of paper, but bringing in money from a 2nd set is perfectly cromulant.


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## Parasite X (Jan 1, 2014)

Kurt91 said:


> I personally don't play the games online at all. However, I have been a fan of the series from back in the Red/Blue days. As a whole, I own and have played through...
> 
> Pokemon Blue
> Pokemon Yellow
> ...


 
Excuse me namekian but when do you make the rules its obvious that you wouldn't understand the joy of either a game shark or action replay


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## lordofthereef (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniPoo said:


> I agree with ferofax.
> 
> Lordofthereef, im not dancig around the fact that Nintendo havnt done anything about it yet.
> Im just saying that it's possible that they will cause they really could and they should.
> ...


 

But you absolutely ARE doing that... Why do you think they haven't done what you are suggesting? Please, I would love to hear it. Your answer would honestly be ridiculously easy to implement. Are you suggesting nobody at GF/Nintendo has thought of it?

I have given you my reason, the reason I find most likely. They don't ban because they don't want to risk banning legitimate monsters/players. Further, they don't want to ban legitimate players who may have received an illegitimate monster. The simple fact that trading is a thing in this game makes it impossible to say one person or another has something like a clone UNLESS these clones are in active play (or in poke bank - however this would require added resources of active scanning poke bank, at least in regular intervals) simultaneously.

EDIT: And now that I have thought about this a few moments longer, I think that most of their publicity, after the game is months old, which comes from tournaments, comes from people who gen monsters as well. I think they unofficially and indirectly support what these people are doing. Because "hackers" are a large segment of their customer base. Further, the hacks don't seem to be effecting their sales at all (Pokemon has been a console seller every year), so maybe it's actually not a priority to them to more strictly moderate this at all. (please note this latter statement is 100% speculative, but I can see it making sense).


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## Purple_Smart96 (Jan 3, 2014)

Well? which is real and which one is legal?


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## Gahars (Jan 3, 2014)

Purple_Smart96 said:


> Well? which is real and which one is legal?


 

WHICH ONE DO I SHOOT?


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## ferofax (Jan 6, 2014)

tbgtbg said:


> Injecting money into Monopoly actually IS playing it as intended. There's a rule that the game (unlike the players) never runs out of money. If the bank runs out of bills, they suggest writing denominations on scraps of paper, but bringing in money from a 2nd set is perfectly cromulant.


 
Ah, but then you're playing by the rules, if you say the bank must never run out of money.

My analogy, however, rests on the idea that _you're just not satisfied with how much money you got_. Maybe you're losing, and so you grab another bundle of cash and proudly announce to the world that you've always had that much money.

"Har har, I keep landing on this tile, but I can't seem to have enough money to buy it, because all the other players are better than me and keep taking my money." So I use my manly manners to deftly dab another handful of Monopoly cash and go "Har, now I'm richer than you motherfuckers. I'm gonna buy every fucking tile I land on. YES, even the GO TO JAIL tile. I'm buying that fucker so you fuckers can pay me and go to jail at the same time."

Haha, I exaggerated a bit. Just imagine Cartman from South Park speaking those lines, and you'll see the humor in it. )



FAST6191 said:


> I am not sure I can follow along with that logic ferofax (money in Monopoly is not functionally identical to Pokemon in Pokemon) though it does rather nicely bring me to my general observation.


 
I suppose it's a very loose analogy. Let me make it clearer by presenting another analogy that's quite possibly as loose as the previous one, but also probably simpler. Probably.

Say, you're playing Poker with a friend. That makes it competitive. Oh, yeah, you got a bit of adrenaline going on, you're putting on your best poker face and all that.
You drew a hand that's an Ace short of being a Full House Aces. (Bred a Pokemon that's just a few IV's short of being perfect, also not the trait you wanted)
You know you have another similar deck within reach. You swipe an Ace from that deck. (This is the part where you Pokegen/Pokesav)
You reveal it to the world as Full House Aces, like it's always been that way. (Don't hackers always assume this part to be true?)

Same cards, same design, same back, just from another deck. That's how it's usually justified. Unfortunately, you didn't get that Ace from the draw, but instead went outside the rules of the game (because you're so beyond being tied down by rules of any sort, you little rebel). You weren't lucky enough to draw a Full House, like you weren't lucky enough to breed that perfect Pokemon you wanted.

And what if the card you swiped, your opponent also had that exact same card -- an Ace of Diamonds? This is where clones come in. Just so happened that you popped out a perfect clone as your opponent did. Now he's thinking, OMG, you cheater. Now everybody's upset at this point, because if you're not playing fair in anything competitive, well... you're not playing fair. I don't think many people like that very much.


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## FAST6191 (Jan 6, 2014)

ferofax said:


> Ah, but then you're playing by the rules, if you say the bank must never run out of money.
> 
> My analogy, however, rests on the idea that _you're just not satisfied with how much money you got_. Maybe you're losing, and so you grab another bundle of cash and proudly announce to the world that you've always had that much money.
> 
> ...



Money in monopoly is an entirely different mechanic to mons in pokemon. Money in monopoly is designed to come into play at a somewhat limited (start money, salary, cards) and broadly predictable rate as well as leave (property, fines, cards) at a given rate as well (from a game design perspective I have issues with the rates of both but that is besides the point), any money I have is the result of dice rolls in my favour and skilled play and beyond that the money can and will leave me. Pokemon represent unskilled time grinding at best and will not tend to leave me, this is then a fundamentally different concept in gameplay and your analogy breaks down. There is still room for debate, which is what people are having here, but that analogy does not fit in it beyond some broad philosophical stuff.

Also "I keep landing on this tile, but I can't seem to have enough money to buy it" would seem to indicate you are not playing with the auction system and thus are actually playing a modified version of monopoly. Granted you are probably playing modded rules with the consent of all players which possibly changes things but hey.


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## ferofax (Jan 6, 2014)

Haha, I edited my previous post. I posited a "better" analogy! It's the POKER ANALOGY! Try that one on for size. XD

ALSO: My analogies, if you observe, rest not in the inherent mechanics or rules of the game, but in the behavior of the player. Yes, it's actually a rather nasty potshot at cheaters. Although, "cheater" is a very broad and rather derogatory term. I mean, if you're enjoying yourself, by all means! But if you're enjoying yourself _at the expense of another person's disappointment,_ and rather unfairly at that, then something's wrong.

Ergo, cheat all you want, but keep it offline. (not specifically talking about you when I say "you").


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## FAST6191 (Jan 6, 2014)

ferofax said:


> But if you're enjoying yourself _at the expense of another person's disappointment,_ and rather unfairly at that, then something's wrong.
> 
> Ergo, cheat all you want, but keep it offline. (not specifically talking about you when I say "you").



But if I am playing with legal mons that can be obtained without any real skill or massive time investment then what does it matter (past the first couple of days since release of the the game anyway)? Is the person that claims to be disappointed just being irrational?

As for your poker one I still hold it fails for much the same reasons-- poker is a probability game of sorts against selection of cards.


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## ferofax (Jan 6, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> But if I am playing with legal mons that can be obtained without any real skill or massive time investment then what does it matter (past the first couple of days since release of the the game anyway)? Is the person that claims to be disappointed just being irrational?
> 
> As for your poker one I still hold it fails for much the same reasons-- poker is a probability game of sorts against selection of cards.


 
And getting perfect Pokemons legitimately is also a probability game of sorts against a selection of possible IV/trait combinations, more so than the odds involved in a single deck of cards.

Losing is always generally disappointing -- it does not need to be claimed as such. But if you knew that your hard-bred pokemon lost against a manipulated pokemon, dude that sucks big-time. That's just like losing Four Aces against a cheated Royal Flush, because the odds that you beat to get that hand just became irrelevant against a hand that never really had any odds in the first place. Just beating the odds in itself is awesome, but you are deprived of that, and that's what ultimately sucks.


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## FAST6191 (Jan 6, 2014)

ferofax said:


> And getting perfect Pokemons legitimately is also a probability game of sorts against a selection of possible IV/trait combinations, more so than the odds involved in a single deck of cards.
> 
> Losing is always generally disappointing -- it does not need to be claimed as such. But if you knew that your hard-bred pokemon lost against a manipulated pokemon, dude that sucks big-time. That's just like losing Four Aces against a cheated Royal Flush, because the odds that you beat to get that hand just became irrelevant against a hand that never really had any odds in the first place. Just beating the odds in itself is awesome, but you are deprived of that, and that's what ultimately sucks.



But if the pokemon breeding/training probability game has zero cost but a somewhat short amount of time and has a tendency towards perfection anyway I am not so much seeing it.

Likewise I am still not seeing the bred vs manipulated thing. Absolutely if they are manipulated beyond what is possible or if getting what is possible might still take far longer than the game has been out (something that does not really happen, or if it does then you are very much on the losing end of the probability scale anyway). Otherwise at best it just seems like you opted to downplay the battle game aspect.


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## Veho (Jan 6, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> Likewise I am still not seeing the bred vs manipulated thing. [...] it just seems like you opted to downplay the battle game aspect.


At a certain skill level, the battle aspect really is the least significant part. Optimal moves for every situation can be determined mathematically (and players know them by heart), and providing both players play a perfect game (and it's not a long shot at this level) the most important thing affecting the outcome of a battle are the Pokemons' stats, i.e. the amount of grinding the player had put into training/raising the team. At a certain point the grinding is the most important aspect of the game, and if someone skips it with a simple hack, it's natural that the other player would be pissed.


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## FAST6191 (Jan 6, 2014)

Veho said:


> At a certain skill level, the battle aspect really is the least significant part. Optimal moves for every situation can be determined mathematically (and players know them by heart), and providing both players play a perfect game (and it's not a long shot at this level) the most important thing affecting the outcome of a battle are the Pokemons' stats, i.e. the amount of grinding the player had put into training/raising the team. At a certain point the grinding is the most important aspect of the game, and if someone skips it with a simple hack, it's natural that the other player would be pissed.



Perhaps but if grinding to the max level is not a truly significant time investment (time to do it / time since game's launch is nearer 0 than not and the numerator is not especially high) I am not especially inclined to note it, especially if the skill component is non existent beyond "ability to stave off boredom". About the only time it gets to be interesting there is if you need a 50 mon team to cater to all combinations and reducing the move options tree (which is typically not the longest) by only pursuing viable strategies would probably cut it off somewhat before then.
By all means consider it distasteful and have it not be something you are inclined to do but there is a difference between distasteful and "should be banned".

All that said if every level then depends upon the grind I am inclined to call pokemon a shit game for me and leave it alone.


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## KazoWAR (Jan 6, 2014)

if you dont want to grind, play on simulators


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## ferofax (Jan 7, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> But if the pokemon breeding/training probability game has zero cost but a somewhat short amount of time and has a tendency towards perfection anyway I am not so much seeing it.
> 
> Likewise I am still not seeing the bred vs manipulated thing. Absolutely if they are manipulated beyond what is possible or if getting what is possible might still take far longer than the game has been out (something that does not really happen, or if it does then you are very much on the losing end of the probability scale anyway). Otherwise at best it just seems like you opted to downplay the battle game aspect.


 
Again, my main gripe here is the behavior and not exactly the mechanics involved, which is why I keep bringing up seemingly unrelated analogies -- I took away the complexities of the game mechanics so I can highlight the behavior behind it.


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## VLTN (Jan 7, 2014)

In my opinion, with pokemon either trained legit or created via programs, it's all going to come down to the team build and your overall strategy. Sure the player spent tons of hours building their team and another person just used a program, but in the end it's how you use your pokemon and planning a strategy against your opponent during battle when and if the tide changes


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## FAST6191 (Jan 7, 2014)

Which I suppose brings us back to the literal vs interpreted, spirit of the law vs letter of the law, actual damage vs some nebulous unfairness,..... thing. In this instance it appears that as we approach the problem from different starting positions it makes it somewhat more difficult to come to an agreement on things.


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## Purple_Smart96 (Jan 7, 2014)

And how is even possible for Nintendo to see if it's legit or RNG abused?



ferofax said:


> And getting perfect Pokemons legitimately is also a probability game of sorts against a selection of possible IV/trait combinations, more so than the odds involved in a single deck of cards.
> 
> Losing is always generally disappointing -- it does not need to be claimed as such. But if you knew that your hard-bred pokemon lost against a manipulated pokemon, dude that sucks big-time. That's just like losing Four Aces against a cheated Royal Flush, because the odds that you beat to get that hand just became irrelevant against a hand that never really had any odds in the first place. Just beating the odds in itself is awesome, but you are deprived of that, and that's what ultimately sucks.


I think your trying to compare the12 year old kids that have 6 shiny level 200 Arceus hacks with people that gen pokemon that are legal and have realistic stats for competitive aesthetics, People don't wanna spend months breading pokemon, when they can be battling instead. Cry all you want about being "real", but you probably can't or will tell the difference between  "real" pokemon and "legal" pokemon.


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## FAST6191 (Jan 7, 2014)

Purple_Smart96 said:


> And how is even possible for Nintendo to see if it's legit or RNG abused?



In general or what they have been seen to have tried? For the most part yeah they do seem to have aimed mostly at the impossible to make during normal game monsters for obvious reasons.

After that it gets into all sorts of weird fuzzy security like has your game only got a few hours on the clock but your pokemon would theoretically have taken a lot longer to make*. Nintendo and Gamefreak do not seem to get this whole computer/data security bit though, even if their efforts have been some of the best seen in a lot of handhelds as far as games go, so they have not really gone much further beyond that. Have a look at some of the database security and concepts like heuristics in anti virus programs.

*but I gave them to a friend to raise being the obvious counter there.


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## Purple_Smart96 (Jan 8, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> In general or what they have been seen to have tried? For the most part yeah they do seem to have aimed mostly at the impossible to make during normal game monsters for obvious reasons.
> 
> After that it gets into all sorts of weird fuzzy security like has your game only got a few hours on the clock but your pokemon would theoretically have taken a lot longer to make*. Nintendo and Gamefreak do not seem to get this whole computer/data security bit though, even if their efforts have been some of the best seen in a lot of handhelds as far as games go, so they have not really gone much further beyond that. Have a look at some of the database security and concepts like heuristics in anti virus programs.
> 
> *but I gave them to a friend to raise being the obvious counter there.


Both


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## lordofthereef (Jan 8, 2014)

Veho said:


> At a certain skill level, the battle aspect really is the least significant part. *Optimal moves for every situation can be determined mathematically (and players know them by heart)*, and providing both players play a perfect game (and it's not a long shot at this level) the most important thing affecting the outcome of a battle are the Pokemons' stats, i.e. the amount of grinding the player had put into training/raising the team. At a certain point the grinding is the most important aspect of the game, and if someone skips it with a simple hack, it's natural that the other player would be pissed.


 

In bold, I think, is what so many people miss. Everyone seems to think "omgwtfbbqqqqqqqqq that guy hax and that's why I can;t win!!! I will never cheat by generating monsters!!!"

In reality: You sir, are a scrub, that doesn't have what it takes (the knowledge and time invested to gain the knowledge) to play competitive pokemon. the fact of the matter is, people with GOOD genned mons aren;t spending their time doing "random battles" with the kiddies online. If you are losing, it's because you suck. Not because someone cheated (assuming they aren;t using illegal skillets).

Note: "you" is not meant to imply any one person here, I am using the good old "universal you".



ferofax said:


> Again, my main gripe here is the behavior and not exactly the mechanics involved, which is why I keep bringing up seemingly unrelated analogies -- I took away the complexities of the game mechanics so I can highlight the behavior behind it.


 
Respectfully, that doesn't make it any more viable to use a random analogy that doesn't work. Why don't you try to just not use analogies at all? Because there really isn't an analogy that works... There is a group of people that decided there is no way in hell they will gen a monster and therefore are angry that people are "cheating" by genning monsters. There is a whole other group that says "legitimately bred monsters are nothing but a test of patience and tedium. No thanks". At the end of the day, if you know what you are doing on the battlefield, you will still beat the guy with genned monsters that doesn't. So what's the problem here, really? The fact that the guy on the other end of the internet didn't put in the same time as you to acquire his pixels?

I am not even sure why you, and others, are even looking for a viable analogy here. To give credence to your claims?

Just a curveball here, do you folks also have issues with people powerlevling their monsters using the day care center and rubber band trick? I mean, yeah they got them from 1-100 quick, but they didn't spend a moment of their time doing it.



FAST6191 said:


> In general or what they have been seen to have tried? For the most part yeah they do seem to have aimed mostly at the impossible to make during normal game monsters for obvious reasons.
> 
> After that it gets into all sorts of weird fuzzy security like* has your game only got a few hours on the clock but your pokemon would theoretically have taken a lot longer to make**. Nintendo and Gamefreak do not seem to get this whole computer/data security bit though, even if their efforts have been some of the best seen in a lot of handhelds as far as games go, so they have not really gone much further beyond that. Have a look at some of the database security and concepts like heuristics in anti virus programs.
> 
> **but I gave them to a friend to raise being the obvious counter there.*


 
Or that I started a new game save...


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