# Trump's Transgender Troop Ban Goes Into Effect



## cots (Apr 12, 2019)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/12/politics/transgender-troop-ban-starts/index.html

I have mixed feelings about this one. I mean, I think that someone that can't simply identify what was originally between their legs or has a high tendency for suicide is basically delusional (transgenderism is a mental disorder identified via the DSM criteria and if you have ever tried to commit suicide not only were you a failure, but you also qualify as having mental problems).

However, if you want to go fight and die for your own country I see no problem with that too. Not many people in general ever go and fight for our country so if transgender individuals want to put their life on the line to protect us isn't that a good thing?


----------



## LDAsh (Apr 12, 2019)




----------



## Xzi (Apr 12, 2019)

The military obviously can't afford to be this picky, I remember judges sentencing criminals to Army service after we went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq.  Then again, this isn't really a policy change concocted by the military, but rather one borne entirely of political maneuvering.


----------



## H1B1Esquire (Apr 12, 2019)

cots said:


> I have mixed feelings about this one.* I mean, everyone knows that someone that can't simply identify what was originally between their legs or has a high tendency for suicide is basically delusional *(transgenderism is a mental disorder identified via the DSM criteria and if you have ever tried to commit suicide not only were you a failure, but you also qualify as having mental problems...



I did not know this.
I'm unsure if you were joking, but maybe_ we need to get you started_ to know where you stand before the Dragon Dance+Return begins


----------



## cots (Apr 12, 2019)

H1B1Esquire said:


> I did not know this.
> I'm unsure if you were joking, but maybe_ we need to get you started_ to know where you stand before the Dragon Dance+Return begins



My personal belief is that if you cannot figure out what sexual organ you were born with (which transgender people can't seem to figure out) or if you have a higher tendency to try to kill yourself (which is true about the transgender population in general, 40% more so then normal people (the last time I checked the DSM stuff)) that you are delusional. I mean, if you are suicidal or have tried to kill yourself you can't purchase a fire arm and probably ended up in a hospital where you couldn't actually leave on your own free will. That is enough there, but add in the fact that you can't figure out your own gender even topples the cake.


----------



## Viri (Apr 12, 2019)

Mentally ill people do not belong in the military.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 12, 2019)

Any disagreements aside, they are fighting for this country.


----------



## H1B1Esquire (Apr 12, 2019)

cots said:


> can't purchase a fire arm



Ooof. I hope this doesn't devolve.


----------



## Hanafuda (Apr 12, 2019)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

I'm opposed to any form of discrimination against a person for being gay. Transgender is a whole other business though, and I do think accommodating that theory would be quite disruptive to military discipline and morale.


----------



## cots (Apr 12, 2019)

Viri said:


> Mentally ill people do not belong in the military.



I've never been in the military, but I have plenty of experience with mentally ill people and they do pose a serious threat to the daily operations of anything they are involved in. However, if you want to go die to protect the country and don't have a checkered past of failing to kill yourself I don't think anyone should be able to stop you from defending the county. I mean, not all transgender people have tried to commit suicide and if you have you shouldn't be able to serve regardless.


----------



## cottonMOUSE (Apr 12, 2019)

cots said:


> (transgenderism is a mental disorder identified via the DSM


actually... this isn't the case anymore. GID isn't considered a mental illness in the DSM-V, it was one of the big changes!


----------



## Xzi (Apr 12, 2019)

cots said:


> My personal belief is that if you cannot figure out what sexual organ you were born with (which transgender people can't seem to figure out) or if you have a higher tendency to try to kill yourself (which is true about the transgender population in general, 40% more so then normal people (the last time I checked the DSM stuff)) that you are delusional. I mean, if you are suicidal or have tried to kill yourself you can't purchase a fire arm and probably ended up in a hospital where you couldn't actually leave on your own free will. That is enough there, but add in the fact that you can't figure out your own gender even topples the cake.


The military has a much higher suicide rate than the general populace, regardless of gender.  I agree it's not a good idea to let people join who are displaying suicidal tendencies or thoughts up front, but the majority tend to develop those thoughts and feelings _after_ joining up and seeing some shit.


----------



## LDAsh (Apr 12, 2019)

Viri said:


> Mentally ill people do not belong in the military.


No, they should stay in The Pentagon and The White House where they belong.


----------



## Viri (Apr 12, 2019)

Hanafuda said:


> I'm opposed to any form of discrimination against a person for being gay.


Gays should be welcomed to the military if they so desire to join. There is nothing wrong with being gay, and they should be treated as equals. 



cots said:


> I've never been in the military, but I have plenty of experience with mentally ill people and they do pose a serious threat to the daily operations or anything they are involved in


Those mentally ill people should also be discharged, if they're in the military, as they pose a threat to them self, and others.


----------



## cots (Apr 12, 2019)

Hanafuda said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
> 
> I'm opposed to any form of discrimination against a person for being gay. Transgender is a whole other business though, and I do think accommodating that theory would be quite disruptive to military discipline and morale.



Discrimination is a funny business as when I share how I personally feel about transgender people (which they encourage you to do) I am being discriminative against them, but then by telling me how I should act, believe and feel is also being discriminatory against me. One of those lose/lose situations.


----------



## Hanafuda (Apr 12, 2019)

Viri said:


> Gays should be welcomed to the military if they so desire to join. There is nothing wrong with being gay, and they should be treated as equals.



Yeah that's what I said too. Transgender is a different issue though.


----------



## cots (Apr 12, 2019)

cottonMOUSE said:


> actually... this isn't the case anymore. GID isn't considered a mental illness in the DSM-V, it was one of the big changes!



It's still in the DSM-V, it's just been reworded and reclassified. It's basically not considered so "severe" as it previously was, but it's still a mental disorder.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-dysphoria-dsm-5_n_3385287


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 12, 2019)

cots said:


> My personal belief is that if you cannot figure out what sexual organ you were born with (which transgender people can't seem to figure out) or if you have a higher tendency to try to kill yourself (which is true about the transgender population in general, 40% more so then normal people (the last time I checked the DSM stuff)) that you are delusional. I mean, if you are suicidal or have tried to kill yourself you can't purchase a fire arm and probably ended up in a hospital where you couldn't actually leave on your own free will. That is enough there, but add in the fact that you can't figure out your own gender even topples the cake.


Gender identity !== what sexual organs you are assigned at birth.

For trans people that is


----------



## cots (Apr 12, 2019)

yukivulpes said:


> Gender identity !== what sexual organs you are assigned at birth.
> 
> For trans people that is



I understand their viewpoint and respectfully disagree with it.


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 12, 2019)

Okay, have fun being backwards in a community where the predominant amount of female members are likely transgender, and in fact several well respected members are indeed MtF...

You win the seal of idiocy tbh


----------



## cottonMOUSE (Apr 12, 2019)

cots said:


> It's still in the DSM-V, it's just been reworded and reclassified. It's basically not considered so "severe" as it previously was, but it's still a mental disorder.
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gender-dysphoria-dsm-5_n_3385287


It's actuallyyyy no longer considered a disorder  It's a big progressive movement now, very similar to the 1973 declassification of homosexuality as a mental illness uhhuh!


----------



## GameSystem (Apr 12, 2019)

I blame Chelsea Manning for this. She's basically the reason everyone has a problem with trans-people in the military. Not only did she commit high crimes, she forced the military to pay for her surgery and medical stuff and then bragged about it. Now people have the misconception that all trans people want to join so they can get free surgery and hormonal therapy.


----------



## cots (Apr 13, 2019)

cottonMOUSE said:


> It's actuallyyyy no longer considered a disorder  It's a big progressive movement now, very similar to the 1973 declassification of homosexuality as a mental illness uhhuh!



"In this regard, the change resembles the elimination of homosexuality from the manual 40 years ago."

I stand by my initial statements. I work with the DSM a lot and the mental disorder has not been completely removed. Also, the quote above is from a website known to sympathize with transgenders. I included it to show that even they admit it's not been removed; however, they did spin it with their own interpretation, but it's still valid enough to prove my point. Still in doubt, go read it -> https://www.amazon.com/Diagnostic-Statistical-Manual-Mental-Disorders/dp/0890425558


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

GameSystem said:


> I blame Chelsea Manning for this. She's basically the reason everyone has a problem with trans-people in the military. Not only did she commit high crimes, she forced the military to pay for her surgery and medical stuff and then bragged about it. Now people have the misconception that all trans people want to join so they can get free surgery and hormonal therapy.


TBH I don't really see the issue there, plenty of people join the military so they can have their medical needs taken care of.  Just speaks to the poor state of healthcare in this country overall.  Also, Manning isn't the one deciding on policy, it's the Trump administration.


----------



## cots (Apr 13, 2019)

yukivulpes said:


> Okay, have fun being backwards in a community where the predominant amount of female members are likely transgender, and in fact several well respected members are indeed MtF...
> 
> You win the seal of idiocy tbh



I don't need anyone's seal of approval nor seek out to be in the popular crowd. Thank you for the kind words.


----------



## GameSystem (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Also, Manning isn't the one deciding on policy, it's the Trump administration.


You say that, but keep in mind that Trump really likes undoing everything Obama did, so he probably has something out for Manning since Obama commuted her 30 year prison sentence.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

GameSystem said:


> You say that, but keep in mind that Trump really likes undoing everything Obama did, so he probably has something out for Manning since Obama commuted her 30 year prison sentence.


That's still Trump deciding to do this of his own volition.  Obama isn't holding a gun to his head.


----------



## GhostLatte (Apr 13, 2019)

Viri said:


> Mentally ill people do not belong in the military.


Neither do they belong in the presidency, but look at that. By the way, trans people are not mentally ill.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

cots said:


> My personal belief is that if you cannot figure out what sexual organ you were born with (which transgender people can't seem to figure out) or if you have a higher tendency to try to kill yourself (which is true about the transgender population in general, 40% more so then normal people (the last time I checked the DSM stuff)) that you are delusional. I mean, if you are suicidal or have tried to kill yourself you can't purchase a fire arm and probably ended up in a hospital where you couldn't actually leave on your own free will. That is enough there, but add in the fact that you can't figure out your own gender even topples the cake.


The one of the highest cause of death for males is sucide
https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2010/LCOD_WHITEmen2010.pdf
https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2015/race-ethnicity/index.htm
http://www.idph.state.il.us/menshealth/healththreats.htm
Males also have the highest rate of violent suicides including gun-related and public suicides like jumping off high areas
Males also have a higher rate of violence, including murder, mass murder, mass shootings, rape, war crimes, etc.
Why is there no push to call males mentally ill when the statistics show that men have so many problems?
The higher rate of suicide in the LGBT+ community isn't caused by being LGBT+ it's caused by people like you and the social pressures we have to face due to bigotry. Trans people tend to end up being social outcasts due to our culture's deeply rooted transphobia and it's this social isolation that worse issues like depression and sense of loneliness. Suicide rates were found to drop drastically when someone has good social support and live in accepting communities. In short, people like you are the one with the actual problem, not trans people.
Edit: Before you even think about bringing up the "But Black women have a lower rate of suicide!" counterargument, this is due to the closeness of Black communities and is countered by my previous statement of good social support


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

GhostLatte said:


> By the way, trans people are not mentally ill.


Thank you you are 100% right. I can only speak of my personal experience here in Scotland but I guess its probably the same around the world. I had to go through two years of assessments to prove I did not have a mental illness. That is just the first stage. I then had to face a panel of 5 different doctors then had to convince all five unanimously I was not mentally Ill before I was even considered for gender reassignment surgery.

I find it hilarious when people say I am mentally Ill when I have the fact that some of Scotlands finest doctors clearly think I am not.



Lilith Valentine said:


> The highest cause of death for white males between the ages of 15 to 34 is sucide
> https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2010/LCOD_WHITEmen2010.pdf
> Males also have the highest rate of violent suicides including gun-related and public suicides like jumping off high areas
> Males also have a higher rate of violence, including murder, mass murder, mass shootings, rape, war crimes, etc.
> ...




Again you are perfectly right about the suicide rate in accepting countries like my own the suicide rate is at 4%. In Spain its 3.5% and in other accepting European countries its about the same. Then look at countries where transphobia or religion is rampant and the rate massively jumps up to high levels. Coincidence I don't think.

What's also never meantioned is that the countries that have high suicide rates in the trans community also have a high number of murders of transgender people.

Transphobic people are hugely responsible for the high suicide and murder rate of the trans community and the sooner people realize this the better.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> Thank you you are 100% right. I can only speak of my personal experience here in Scotland but I guess its probably the same around the world. I had to go through two years of assessments to prove I did not have a mental illness. That is just the first stage. I then had to face a panel of 5 different doctors then had to convince all five unanimously I was not mentally Ill before I was even considered for gender reassignment surgery.
> 
> I find it hilarious when people say I am mentally Ill when I have the fact that some of Scotlands finest doctors clearly think I am not.
> 
> ...


It's worth adding that the overwhelming majority of people who murder trans people (mostly trans women) are men.


----------



## cottonMOUSE (Apr 13, 2019)

cancel terfs & also transphobic men too tbh


----------



## Ericthegreat (Apr 13, 2019)

Wasnt this about paying for hormone pills or something? Not saying that the military doesnt just lose hundreds of millions every year, just that they kinda had a reason right?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



yukivulpes said:


> Okay, have fun being backwards in a community where the predominant amount of female members are likely transgender, and in fact several well respected members are indeed MtF...
> 
> You win the seal of idiocy tbh


Well if you going to be like that, isnt it weird to assume women in the military are predominantly trans males?


----------



## cottonMOUSE (Apr 13, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> Wasnt this about paying for hormone pills or something? Not saying that the military doesnt just lose hundreds of millions every year, just that they kinda had a reason right?


fun fact!! estradiol valerate is a cheap and commonly available birth control medicine


----------



## Ericthegreat (Apr 13, 2019)

cottonMOUSE said:


> fun fact!! estradiol valerate is a cheap and commonly available birth control medicine


For some strange reason does it cost the military thousands?


----------



## cottonMOUSE (Apr 13, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> For some strange reason does it cost the military thousands?


its available for $3 per month from walmart without insurance, so I doubt it


----------



## Ericthegreat (Apr 13, 2019)

Found this:

"The two main arguments for the trans military ban are 1) medical costs and 2) trans people are somehow “mentally unfit” to serve in combat. Both arguments fail when looking at the facts. According to a report from the Defense Department, $8 million out of $50 billion of the military health budget went towards medical transitioning in 2016, which is only one percent of the total budget. As far whether trans people are mental fit to serve in combat, both the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association say the trans military ban is unscientific."

-https://anthonybrown.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=502

Anyone have any reason to add on why they did this?

Guess theyer afraid of "if thousands of transgender people join that 8 million will be billions!" but thats not really an argument since thats not going to happen....


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> For some strange reason does it cost the military thousands?


The pills I just got cost me a grand total of nothing but would have cost me 6$ if I didn't have insurance. For these pills to cost thousands for the military (which honestly is still really not that much, all things considered when looking at military spending,) then this isn't a trans-related issue, but a budget issue. There's neither a reason nor an excuse for why the same box that would have cost me 6$, cost them thousands. This high cost should be the real issue that needs to be looked into.


----------



## Harumyne (Apr 13, 2019)

Ironic most world leaders and government officials are suffering with some degree of delusional psychosis.


----------



## Minox (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The highest cause of death for white males between the ages of 15 to 34 is sucide
> https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2010/LCOD_WHITEmen2010.pdf
> Males also have the highest rate of violent suicides including gun-related and public suicides like jumping off high areas
> Males also have a higher rate of violence, including murder, mass murder, mass shootings, rape, war crimes, etc.
> ...


Do you read what you link? The statistics you linked shows unintentional injury by far being the highest cause of death ages 1-44. Furthermore, the linked statistics does not show death/suicide rate, it shows percentage of deaths attributed to the named categories among the deceased.

Comparing rate of suicide as a death cause with suicide rate is comparing apples to oranges. It does not apply.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Minox said:


> Do you read what you link? The statistics you linked shows unintentional injury by far being the highest cause of death ages 1-44. Furthermore, the linked statistics does not show death/suicide rate, it shows percentage of deaths attributed to the named categories among the deceased.
> 
> Comparing suicide as a death cause with suicide rate is comparing apples to oranges. It does not apply.


I was in a bit of hurry, I edited my post to be a bit more accurate. One of the highest causes of deaths in males is suicides and I included additional links to back up that statement. That being said, it doesn't change what I said in my post.
Side note, so the staff is just going to continue to keep this extremely transphobic thread open? Why does the staff treat transphobia as such a small issue? The OP clearly just made this thread to spread their transphobic comments and it's rather interesting how the staff just ignores that fact and even replies to my comment instead.


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Side note, so the staff is just going to continue to keep this extremely transphobic thread open? Why does the staff treat transphobia as such a small issue? The OP clearly just made this thread to spread their transphobic comments and it's rather interesting how the staff just ignores that fact and even replies to my comment instead.   .


Exactly the amount of transphobic threads and comments that get allowed on this site is shocking. Yet other site members get warnings for alot less. The site staff clearly don't give a fuck about the feelings of trans members which is ridiculous.

How many times do I need to report this thread before the staff realize just how transphobic it is.


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 13, 2019)

And if the staff blatantly ignore us or ban us for "drama" or some other bullshit then they are basically being completely disrespectful. Because this thread honestly looks a lot like it was created with intentions of it being bait to cause drama and the OP seems like your average post-election Trump supporter.

The more this carries on the more this will hurt the GBATemp community as a whole and it's reputation.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Side note, so the staff is just going to continue to keep this extremely transphobic thread open? Why does the staff treat transphobia as such a small issue? The OP clearly just made this thread to spread their transphobic comments and it's rather interesting how the staff just ignores that fact and even replies to my comment instead.





AmandaRose said:


> Exactly the amount of transphobic threads and comments that get allowed on this site is shocking. Yet other site members get warnings for alot less. The site staff clearly don't give a fuck about the feelings of trans members which is ridiculous.


...I do have some mod powers now, but I feel as though it'd be an abuse of said power to close the thread in its entirety.  Granted, the first paragraph of the OP is pretty dickish and transphobic, but at the same time, the topic has certainly allowed for those of us who wish to voice their opinions/displeasure do so.


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

We need answers why transphobic threads are allowed yet when trans members defend themselves they are the ones who's comments are deleted or they are warned to shut up by site staff.

Transphobia seems to be acceptable on this site for some reason.


----------



## urherenow (Apr 13, 2019)

Have any one of you served in the military? No? Then STFU because you have no clue. Anything contrary to good order and discipline is detrimental to the military. You can be considered trans, without having the surgery... but perhaps over 90% in the military are NOT going to accept that in their berthing, let alone in their showers. Overall, far too many Americans can't even stand places that allow trans men to use women's restrooms. In the military, EVERYBODY needs to have their mind on what they're doing. Mistakes in the military cause people to DIE. For this reason, it is all but mandatory to go home when an immediate family member dies. I've seen many people try to opt out of it (name your cliche... hated father, etc), but were sent home anyway.

And don't forget, the initial plan was that the military was going to pay for treatment and surgery. Screw that.

On a personal level... I can't see how some trans people call themselves Christians (some do). You're basically saying that GOD made a mistake when he gave you a penis (or didn't). The hypocrisy!


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> We need answers why transphobic threads are allowed yet when trans members defend themselves they are the ones who's comments are deleted or they are warned to shut up by site staff.
> 
> Transphobia seems to be acceptable on this site for some reason.


IDK, you'd have to give specific examples.  Perhaps it wasn't the appropriate time or place to be discussing trans-specific issues, but that's just a blind assumption.


----------



## Minox (Apr 13, 2019)

I have to question what constitutes transphobia.

Does disagreeing with the classification of transgenderism constitute transphobia? Is transgenderism not a mental disconnect between the way a transgender person sees themself as and what their physical body is? Would it not be fair to consider that disconnect a mental disorder that doesn't occur for the large majority of people? Does disagreeing with treatment method constitute transphobia? Does encouraging someone to wait until they're an adult and absolutely sure they want to transition transphobia? Does disagreeing with someone who is transgender constitute transphobia? 

Note that I'm not arguing for the mistreatment of transgender people nor do I think that people experiencing this disconnect shouldn't get treatment to alleviate their issues. All I want to convey is that differing opinions does not constitute a fear of something.


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 13, 2019)

This thread is a pretty good example already. Very much shows prejudice. While I don't really care about the military stuff it being used as a justification point by several as to why they think trans people are bad/whatever is disgusting behaviour.

The OP said something along the lines of "trans people aren't real" somewhere (think it was after one post of mine).


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> ...I do have some mod powers now, but I feel as though it'd be an abuse of said power to close the thread in its entirety.  Granted, the first paragraph of the OP is pretty dickish and transphobic, but at the same time, the topic has certainly allowed for those of us who wish to voice their opinions/displeasure do so.


The topic itself isn't the issue and is well within the purpose of this area in the threads. The issue very clearly didn't make this topic to talk about the issue addressed and just made this topic to spread transphobic comments. Very little of the OP's post actually relates back to the actual article and knowing the OP's history, signature, and comments, it's obvious what the OP's intend was



Minox said:


> I have to question what constitutes transphobia.
> 
> Does disagreeing with the classification of transgenderism constitute transphobia? Is transgenderism not a mental disconnect between the way a transgender person sees themself as and what their physical body is? Would it not be fair to consider that disconnect a mental disorder that doesn't occur for the large majority of people? Does disagreeing with treatment method constitute transphobia? Does encouraging someone to wait until they're an adult and absolutely sure they want to transition transphobia? Does disagreeing with someone who is transgender constitute transphobia?
> 
> Note that I'm not arguing for the mistreatment of transgender people nor do I think that people experiencing this disconnect shouldn't get treatment to alleviate their issues. All I want to convey is that differing opinions does not constitute a fear of something.


The OP's posts are good examples of what transphobia is. And honestly, "disagreeing" with people being trans is also transphobia, "disagreeing" with someone for being trans literally means disagreeing with them simply existing in this world. It's like "disagreeing" with someone being black or gay. Transphobic opinions actually kill people and there's no reason to respect them


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I was in a bit of hurry, I edited my post to be a bit more accurate. One of the highest causes of deaths in males is suicides and I included additional links to back up that statement. That being said, it doesn't change what I said in my post.
> Side note, so the staff is just going to continue to keep this extremely transphobic thread open? Why does the staff treat transphobia as such a small issue? The OP clearly just made this thread to spread their transphobic comments and it's rather interesting how the staff just ignores that fact and even replies to my comment instead.


You can't pull the victim card whenever someone points out that you've made a mistake. Transphobia didn't do that - you did that. The statistic muddies the waters - the death rate of 19-year-old males in America, prime time for military enrollment, is 135.2 in 100 000, or 0.13%. According to *your* evidence, 19.9% of them die from suicide in that age group, that's 19.9% of the 0.13% of the total, or 0.02%. If your intention was to make me worry about young male teens dying from suicide, you failed to provide a convincing case.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db37.htm


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 13, 2019)

Everything in Lilith's post is on point. Enough on point to highlight a real bias, or perhaps incredible leniency towards hate, in the staff.

This discussion is clearly going nowhere yet now the staff are even jumping in the thread, refusing to do anything but fuel the flame.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> You can't pull the victim card whenever someone points out that you've made a mistake. Transphobia didn't do that - you did that. The statistic muddies the waters - the death rate of 19-year-old males in America, prime time for military enrollment, is 135.2 in 100 000, or 0.13%. According to *your* evidence, 19.9% of them die from suicide in that age group, that's 19.9% of the 0.13% of the total, or 0.02%. If your intention was to make me worry about young male teens dying from suicide, you failed to provide a convincing case.


That doesn't change the rest of my post and quite honestly it's obvious just how shit the staff really has become on this site that you are going after my comment instead of addressing the issues I've brought up.


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 13, 2019)

This thread and the staff are going against the rules in fact.

Please show respect for all members at GBAtemp; new or old. Disparaging remarks towards others about race, gender, origin, handicap, age, sexual orientation, personal politics and religion will NOT be tolerated and will most likely be removed by staff. The poster will then be warned, suspended or banned (see the Warnings section below for more information on warnings).

So yeah this is pure bullshit, as stated by the fucking terms of the board.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

Minox said:


> Does disagreeing with the classification of transgenderism constitute transphobia? Is transgenderism not a mental disconnect between the way a transgender person sees themself as and what their physical body is? Would it not be fair to consider that disconnect a mental disorder that doesn't occur for the large majority of people? Does disagreeing with treatment method constitute transphobia? Does encouraging someone to wait until they're an adult and absolutely sure they want to transition transphobia? Does disagreeing with someone who is transgender constitute transphobia?


All of these questions are meaningless, it simply comes down to treating everyone as human beings.  Not using the label 'mentally ill' to dismiss a person's entire identity.  It'd be like me dismissing anyone to the political right of Hillary Clinton as neo-nazis.


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> All of these questions are meaningless, it simply comes down to treating everyone as human beings.  Not using the label 'mentally ill' to dismiss a person's entire identity.  It'd be like me dismissing anyone to the political right of Hillary Clinton as neo-nazis.


Yes exactly and all the time people make comments about trans people mutilating their genitals ect ect which is out and out trans hatred yet these type of comments never get deleted.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That doesn't change the rest of my post and quite honestly it's obvious just how shit the staff really has become on this site that you are going after my comment instead of addressing the issues I've brought up.


Discussing issues concerning the trans community isn't, in and out of itself, transphobia. GBAtemp welcomes debate, that de facto means that sometimes you will see points of view that may not align with your own. You don't have to agree with them, but those views are as much welcome on the site as yours are. You're not forced to participate either, you're a part of this discussion willingly. If any targeted harassment or bullying *does* occur, action will no doubt be taken to curb it. All that doesn't change the fact that out of all causes of death suicide is a distant second, teens overwhelmingly die in accidental injuries, for instance in traffic accidents.


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 13, 2019)

>issues

What issues? All I saw was blatantly people saying how people should "accept who they were born as and deal with it", basically. If that isn't transphobia I will be damned.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

yukivulpes said:


> >issues
> 
> What issues? All I saw was blatantly people saying how people should "accept who they were born as and deal with it", basically. If that isn't transphobia I will be damned.


That's an opinion, not a "disparaging comment". It's just an opinion you don't agree with and don't like.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> Discussing issues concerning the trans community isn't, in and out of itself, transphobia. GBAtemp welcomes debate, that de facto means that sometimes you will see points of view that may not align with your own. You don't have to agree with them, but those views are as much welcome on the site as yours are. You're not forced to participate either, you're a part of this discussion willingly. If any targeted harassment or bullying *does* occur, action will no doubt be taken to curb it. All that doesn't change the fact that out of all causes of death suicide is a distant second, teens overwhelmingly die in accidental injuries, for instance in traffic accidents.


The OP made an entire thread full of transphobic comments, this isn't a debate. If this thread was about race, it would have been deleted by now and there would have been no "debate" on the topic. There shouldn't need to be targetted attacks for transphobia to be taken seriously. Additionally saying that I shouldn't be involved is literally asking me to avoid an actual issue that actually effects me. Transphobia actually affects my life and my safety, I am not going to ignore it.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 13, 2019)

yukivulpes said:


> >issues
> 
> What issues? All I saw was blatantly people saying how people should "accept who they were born as and deal with it", basically. If that isn't transphobia I will be damned.


It's a bit of a stretch to call that transphobia, and rather desperate.... I've seen far worse comments shrugged off as an opinion. I get that some of you don't agree with each other on some points such as these. However, to go straight for the top and cry victim doesn't get anyone anywhere. Not everybody has to accept your beliefs, much the same in reverse. Getting heated won't solve anything.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The OP made an entire thread full of transphobic comments, this isn't a debate. If this thread was about race, it would have been deleted by now and there would have been no "debate" on the topic. There shouldn't need to be targetted attacks for transphobia to be taken seriously. Additionally saying that I shouldn't be involved is literally asking me to avoid an actual issue that actually effects me. Transphobia actually affects my life and my safety, I am not going to ignore it.


I'm not asking you to do anything, I'm telling you that you are free to do as you please, as are other members. Whataboutism is a bad way to build a case, I haven't seen any disparaging comments infringing upon the rights of the trans community, all I see is a discussion regarding the trans suicide rate and how it relates to military service.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> That's an opinion, not a "disparaging comment". It's just an opinion you don't agree with and don't like.


In that case, I actually don't understand what is considered a "disparaging comment". Care to explain what I would have to say to actually break the rules?


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not asking you to do anything, I'm telling you that you are free to do as you please, as are other members. Whataboutism is a bad way to build a case, I haven't seen any disparaging comments infringing upon the rights of the trans community, all I see is a discussion regarding the trans suicide rate and how it relates to military service.


That's cool that you are just going to ignore all of the other transphobic comments, I am glad you get to have that fucking power as a Staff to decide to just ignore those comments and focus on mine.


----------



## yukivulpes (Apr 13, 2019)

I'm done with this bullshit showcase which is showing strong defence in favour of bigoted idiots. Good fucking riddance to this toxic 'community'.


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

OP said in first post 

(and don't get my started on the entire trans communities abuse of others due to their cowardliness when it comes to using their failed attempt at kill themselves to obtain sympathy).

That statement is entirely trans hatred it's as simple as that.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> In that case, I actually don't understand what is considered a "disparaging comment". Care to explain what I would have to say to actually break the rules?


It's actually fairly simple. If someone rolled in here wearing a white hood and started proclaiming that blacks are an inferior race and as such should be enslaved by whites, that would constitute a pretty obvious disparaging comment on race. Now turn that dial left or right a couple of degrees and you'll get to experience what we, the mods, deal with everyday. A big part of our job consists of fostering discussions on the boards, but we can't do that if we shoot down every even mildly controversial topic. We can't treat the subject of trans issues as verboten, that's not how dialogue works, and dialogue is the best way to spread your message. If you disagree with the OP, list your reasons why and bolster your stance with good arguments, that's how the entire community benefits. If we just shut it down, it never gets discussed and nobody gets to learn anything. I err on the side of learning until the rules are blatantly broken, I believe most of the staff understands the sentiment, but I won't speak on their behalf.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 13, 2019)

urherenow said:


> On a personal level... I can't see how some trans people call themselves Christians (some do). You're basically saying that GOD made a mistake when he gave you a penis (or didn't). The hypocrisy!


I really hate to address this, but with your reasoning, we wouldn't even be able to help anyone that is sick. "You want the medicine/cure for "x"? Are you saying God made a mistake?"


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> It's actually fairly simple. If someone rolled in here wearing a white hood and started proclaiming that blacks are an inferior race and as such should be enslaved by whites, that would constitute a pretty obvious disparaging comment on race. Now turn that dial left or right a couple of degrees and you'll get to experience what we, the mods, deal with everyday. A big part of our job consists of fostering discussions on the boards, but we can't do that if we shoot down every even mildly controversial topic. We can't treat the subject of trans issues as verboten, that's not how dialogue works, and dialogue is the best way to spread your message. If you disagree with the OP, list your reasons why and bolster your stance with good arguments, that's how the entire community benefits. If we just shut it down, it never gets discussed and nobody gets to learn anything. I err on the side of learning until the rules are blatantly broken, I believe most of the staff understands the sentiment, but I won't speak on their behalf.



TLDR: Saying that blacks are an inferior race is bad, but saying that trans are inferior is perfectly OK. Got it.


----------



## urherenow (Apr 13, 2019)

KingVamp said:


> I really hate to address this, but with your reasoning, we wouldn't even be able to help anyone that is sick. "You want the medicine/cure for "x"? Are you saying God made a mistake?"


heh. Figures someone would say this and someone would also "like" it. God gave us the brains to make medicine. He also made us in his image. You are trying to alter that image. I could go all day, but you're loony tunes anyway. There's just no point.



osm70 said:


> TLDR: Saying that blacks are an inferior race is bad, but saying that trans are inferior is perfectly OK. Got it.


Trans aren't natural. You can't see the distinction?


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> TLDR: Saying that blacks are an inferior race is bad, but saying that trans are inferior is perfectly OK. Got it.


It's also apparently OK for the op of this thread to say all trans are delusional and that we all attempt suicide for sympathy ect this level of hatred being accepted by site staff is laughable


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That's cool that you are just going to ignore all of the other transphobic comments, I am glad you get to have that fucking power as a Staff to decide to just ignore those comments and focus on mine.


I hate to agree with Foxi on this one, but for the most part I couldn't find much that could really be classified as blatantly inflammatory or transphobic...at least if I'm trying to remain impartial.  I removed one sentence from the OP.  Everything else is mostly just him repeating himself.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> TLDR: Saying that blacks are an inferior race is bad, but saying that trans are inferior is perfectly OK. Got it.


Nobody said that. What was said was that the suicide rate is concerning in regards to military service, which it is. There is also no agreement on whether being trans is an immutable or an acquired characteristic, or a mixture of the two. The subject is still being researched and debated, as it is here.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> Nobody said that. What was said was that the suicide rate is concerning in regards to the military ban, which it is. There is also no agreement on whether being trans is an immutable or an acquired characteristic, or a mixture of the two. The subject is still being researched and debated, as it is here.


It was also said that trans people are delusional and that they should deal with their biological sex.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



urherenow said:


> Trans aren't natural. You can't see the distinction?



I really can't. Care to explain?


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> It was also said that trans people are delusional and that they should deal with their biological sex.


It's certainly one of the paths. A trans individual can choose to transition or to stick to their assigned gender, and it's up to them to make the estimation of what is more beneficial to them. Trans people of all walks of life fall somewhere between these two extremes. Some transition completely, surgery et all, others limit their transition to changing their fashion choices, it's all on a spectrum. There's no shortage of people who had gender identity issues in the past and have resolved them, one way or the other.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

Foxi4 said:


> It's certainly one of the paths. A trans individual can choose to transition or to stick to their assigned gender, and it's up to them to make the estimation of what is more beneficial to them. Trans people of all walks of life fall somewhere between these two extremes. Some transition completely, surgery et all, others limit their transition to changing their fashion choices, it's all on a spectrum. There's no shortage of people who had gender identity issues in the past and have resolved them, one way or the other.


Yeah, but I don't think that telling someone "this is what you should do and everything else you might do is bad" is a good idea.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> It was also said that trans people are delusional and that they should deal with their biological sex.


To be fair, he prefaces that as his 'personal belief.'  Personally I believe that his belief is bullshit and demonstrates a self-centered view of the world, but that's why it's good that we all have this space to voice our opinions and beliefs on the topic.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> To be fair, he prefaces that as his 'personal belief.'  Personally I believe that his belief is bullshit and a self-centered view of the world, but that's why it's good that we all have this space to voice our opinions and beliefs on the topic.


I... actually agree with that. Anyone should be allowed to voice their opinions, regardless of what they might be.

But at the same time, I can't agree that a sentence that begins with " I mean, everyone knows that..." is a personal belief.

("I mean, everyone knows that someone that can't simply identify what was originally between their legs or has a high tendency for suicide is basically delusional")


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> I... actually agree with that. Anyone should be allowed to voice their opinions, regardless of what they might be.
> 
> But at the same time, I can't agree that a sentence that begins with " I mean, everyone knows that..." is a personal belief.
> 
> ("I mean, everyone knows that someone that can't simply identify what was originally between their legs or has a high tendency for suicide is basically delusional")


Fair enough.


----------



## urherenow (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> It was also said that trans people are delusional and that they should deal with their biological sex.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


JFC... A black person is born that way. There's no choice. A Trans seems to think they can make the decision on their own, what their sex is. They're born with a penis, then decide No... I'm a woman, then may or may not remove it. And vice versa for women. There's nothing natural about it.


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 13, 2019)

Transgender people require delicate psychological and medical assessments, medication and surgery. On top of that, many also suffer depression and join the military for the wrong reasons. Few are combat ready.

The "transgender movement" is detrimental to real gender dysphoric people and focuses on all the wrong things. Trans people need better access to effective assessment and treatment, not nutjobs crying identity, social constructs, public restrooms etc. and lumping nonbinary (completely different issue) under the transgender umbrella.

A real transperson is someone who is dysphoric with the physical gender they were born with, gets assessed by a psychologist and gets hormones and surgery to achieve a body they mentally fit into. They also identify as men or women, not transmen or transwomen, and likewise identify "cis people" as just men or women, because their goal isn't to discriminate or alienate themselves.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

urherenow said:


> JFC... A black person is born that way. There's no choice. A Trans seems to think they can make the decision on their own, what their sex is. They're born with a penis, then decide No... I'm a woman, then may or may not remove it. And vice versa for women. There's nothing natural about it.



They seem to think they can do that. You seem to think they can't. What makes you think your opinion is better than theirs?


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> To be fair, he prefaces that as his 'personal belief.'  Personally I believe that his belief is bullshit and demonstrates a self-centered view of the world, but that's why it's good that we all have this space to voice our opinions and beliefs on the topic.


 So a personal belief is OK on this site even though it is full of hatred?


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> I hate to agree with Foxi on this one, but for the most part I couldn't find much that could really be classified as blatantly inflammatory or transphobic...at least if I'm trying to remain impartial.  I removed one sentence from the OP.  Everything else is mostly just him repeating himself.


I respect you and I am going to be honest with you, the transphobic comments are mostly lowkey dog whistles that reporting each one and explaining them would just flood the report section and personally, I really don't want to break down each comment one by one. I can if someone personally wants talk about that, but that's beside the point. The issue is that if this were a topic with the same wording, but about race, it wouldn't have last until this point. There is an issue where the staff finds transphobia to be acceptable debatable subject and continue to argue it as such when such an argument is rather clear hypocrisy. People are entitled to their own opinions, that's very much true, but that doesn't mean they need to be respected nor given a platform when their opinions so clearly violate the rules of a private site and would be punished if given just small detail changes. In other words, if we don't give a platform to racism, we shouldn't give a platform for transphobia.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 13, 2019)

People really like to throw -phobic around like it's going out of style. Someone giving their opinion on transgenderism shouldn't instantly be labeled as hate speech or "transphobia". It should be regarded as the former, which is open to interpretation and discussion. As it should be. All the slander and truly toxic comments are dealt with far quicker than they used to be. Just because you don't, and won't agree with it doesn't make their views wrong. Some of you really ought to be the bigger person and just walk away instead of instigating an issue where there should be none.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I respect you and I am going to be honest with you, the transphobic comments are mostly lowkey dog whistles that reporting each one and explaining them would just flood the report section and personally, I really don't want to break down each comment one by one. I can if someone personally wants talk about that, but that's beside the point. The issue is that if this were a topic with* the same wording, but about race*, it wouldn't have last until this point. There is an issue where the staff finds transphobia to be acceptable debatable subject and continue to argue it as such when such an argument is rather clear hypocrisy. People are entitled to their own opinions, that's very much true, but that doesn't mean they need to be respected nor given a platform when their opinions so clearly violate the rules of a private site and would be punished if given just small detail changes. In other words, if we don't give a platform to racism, we shouldn't give a platform for transphobia.


Is that really possible, though? If you take the statement and replace "trans" with "black", it will make no sense.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Memoir said:


> People really like to throw -phobic around like it's going out of style. Someone giving their opinion on transgenderism shouldn't instantly be labeled as hate speech or "transphobia". It should be regarded as the former, which is open to interpretation and discussion. As it should be. All the slander and truly toxic comments are dealt with far quicker than they used to be. Just because you don't, and won't agree with it doesn't make their views wrong. Some of you really ought to be the bigger person and just walk away instead of instigating an issue where there should be none.


Expect the OP is transphobic and is being transphobic. It's one thing if the OP was someone talking out ignorance and other when it's out of malice. If this topic was asking questions regarding the ban and issues revolving around it, that's one thing. It's another when the OP outright inserted their own opinions as facts and continued making transphobic comments that quite frankly have nothing to do with this actual article.
It's also worth noting (again) that transphobia goes beyond simply disagreeing with someone and the results of transphobia have resulted in real-world harm to people.


osm70 said:


> Is that really possible, though? If you take the statement and replace "trans" with "black", it will make no sense.


Maybe a few more details changes here and there, but yeah. The OP could say that Black people shouldn't be involved with the military due to the higher rate of gang violence in primarily black neighborhoods. Although not 1 to 1 the same thing, it's still the same concept of cherrypicking to justify bigotted ideas.


----------



## urherenow (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> What makes you think your opinion is better than theirs?


science. FACT. Cut off whatever parts you like... you still have  a Y and an X chromosome or two X chromosomes. Not a damn thing you do is going to change that. XY is male, XX is female. PERIOD. If you were born with a penis, you're a man. Sorry, but it's not an opinion. Any notion otherwise is about as dumb as a flat Earth.

EDIT: And just to be clear, I honestly don't hold anything against people to feel that their likes/dislikes/mannerisms/etc relate more to the opposite sex. The idea that all men must dress and act one way, and all women another, is flawed to its core, and this ideology is why we have discussions like this. The only problem I have is that most trans present themselves like they are ACTUALLY the opposite sex, trapped in the wrong body. No, you're not actually a woman or supposed to be a woman. You just happen to think and feel like what society has deemed a woman should be. It's not the same thing. Everyone on both sides is confused about this.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> In other words, if we don't give a platform to racism, we shouldn't give a platform for transphobia.


I completely agree, and while I can't catch everything, I'll do my best to not allow for such a platform.  Where a thread on race relations would be ideal to discuss racism and its negative connotations, here is an ideal place to do the same for transphobia and other issues facing trans individuals.  No rule against swarming OP's thread with relatively on-topic posts, after all.  

Nor that you should feel pressured to, but trans members are of course free to create their own threads in this subforum as often as they wish; there's no denying trans issues are becoming more mainstream in politics and the news.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

urherenow said:


> science. FACT. Cut off whatever parts you like... you still have  a Y and an X chromosome or two X chromosomes. Not a damn thing you do is going to change that. XY is male, XX is female. PERIOD. If you were born with a penis, you're a man. Sorry, but it's not an opinion. Any notion otherwise is about as dumb as a flat Earth.



And yet, you can't deny that trans people exist. And they probably aren't trans because they want to, right? I mean, why would anyone choose to go through all this trouble for no good reason? Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that they feel like they need to (not want to) change?

EDIT: Typo


----------



## Kigiru (Apr 13, 2019)

...And that's actualy a good thing for USA. This is for what you people should be thankful to Trump.
In army you need mentaly stable people, not self-centered crybabies that make tantrums over wrong pronouns, lack of their favorite soya-based drink in rations and gender-neutral toilets.
Just think about what would happen if USA would start compulsory military service and drafts in enviroment where there's no strict rules about who can be a soldier. No one will then ask if these people want to be part of it, they just will be forced to do it and it will be a freaking mess.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> I completely agree, and while I can't catch everything, I'll do my best to not allow for such a platform.  Where a thread on race relations would be ideal to discuss racism and its negative connotations, here is an ideal place to do the same for transphobia and other issues facing trans individuals.  No rule against swarming OP's thread with relatively on-topic posts, after all.
> 
> Nor that you should feel pressured to, but trans members are of course free to create their own threads in this subforum as often as they wish; there's no denying trans issues are becoming more mainstream in politics and the news.


I feel you, but most of the time that just ends pretty badly because the staff isn't really doing anything about the transphobic members on this site. In all honesty, the reason most don't make threads and or have quit is that we don't feel safe nor welcome in the forums and then when we try to address the issues, it becomes this thread. In several cases, we get warned because we tried to address transphobic comments. I know you and I know that you are a good person trying to encourage us, but there's a lot more going on than just this thread.


----------



## urherenow (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> And yet, you can't deny that trans people exist. And they probably aren't trans because they want to, right? I mean, why would anyone choose to go through all this trouble for no good reason? Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that they feel like they need to (not want to) change?
> 
> EDIT: Typo


Go back and read my edit. I understand the sociology/phsychology behind it. At least I feel that I do. But in reality, it's not about being a man or a woman. Nothing anybody does, trans or not, changes what gender you were born with; you will ALWAYS be that gender.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I feel you, but most of the time that just ends pretty badly because the staff isn't really doing anything about the transphobic members on this site. In all honesty, the reason most don't make threads and or have quit is that we don't feel safe nor welcome in the forums and then when we try to address the issues, it becomes this thread. In several cases, we get warned because we tried to address transphobic comments. I know you and I know that you are a good person trying to encourage us, but there's a lot more going on than just this thread.


Wait, let me get this straight. You are saying that if you start a thread about trans issues and people start attacking you, you can get warned for self-defense?


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> Wait, let me get this straight. You are saying that if you start a thread about trans issues and people start attacking you, you can get warned for self-defense?


Yes it does happen


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 13, 2019)

Whatever you do in your private life and the way that you choose to express yourself is something that shouldn't be infringed upon. However in a public and law viewpoint, I would say that if your are MtF or FtM you should always be identified with what you biologically are, as to avoid any harmful and awful abuses of the way that you express yourself. I also believe that it should be down to the people in regards to these types of issues and that the best way for this to be enacted should have been with some kind of direct democratic procedure.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> Wait, let me get this straight. You are saying that if you start a thread about trans issues and people start attacking you, you can get warned for self-defense?


I am not going to lie, that has actually happened before because "Flaming, even in self-defense, is strictly prohibited." It's happened to several people that I have been talking to for years now.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 13, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> Yes itndoes happen


How extreme the "defense" is what warrants the warn. There are other methods in place to get a desired outcome instead of blatantly attacking someone. Which does happen, a lot.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Apr 13, 2019)

osm70 said:


> Wait, let me get this straight. You are saying that if you start a thread about trans issues and people start attacking you, you can get warned for self-defense?


If people are truly attacking you, you need to report the posts and not retaliate.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I respect you and I am going to be honest with you, the transphobic comments are mostly lowkey dog whistles that reporting each one and explaining them would just flood the report section and personally, I really don't want to break down each comment one by one. I can if someone personally wants talk about that, but that's beside the point. The issue is that if this were a topic with the same wording, but about race, it wouldn't have last until this point. There is an issue where the staff finds transphobia to be acceptable debatable subject and continue to argue it as such when such an argument is rather clear hypocrisy. People are entitled to their own opinions, that's very much true, but that doesn't mean they need to be respected nor given a platform when their opinions so clearly violate the rules of a private site and would be punished if given just small detail changes. In other words, if we don't give a platform to racism, we shouldn't give a platform for transphobia.


There's a large number of immutable characteristics that can disqualify someone from military service, this goes well beyond disability. For instance, the U.S. Military has decided that anyone who wishes to enlist needs to have an IQ of 85 at minimum. The military is the only organisation legally allowed to discriminate based on IQ, no other employer, private or public, is allowed to use intelligence testing in enrollment. This raises many uncomfortable questions due to the disparity in IQ based on genetics, economic standing, upbringing etc., even race, and I don't see any issue with discussing any of that. In fact, I would rather see such topics discussed instead of being brushed off and hidden under the rug where prejudice is allowed to fester away from the public eye. You might consider this stance to be - phobic, I think it's the exact opposite. We should not be afraid to discuss uncomfortable subjects and if you consider any posts to be infringing upon anyone's rights, you *should* report them and substantiate your opinion. I wish to see this community built on dialogue, not on stonewalling uncomfortable subjects and penalising users for their speech while coddling others. I have no intention to smother people with kindness, that's not a way to progress any community.


----------



## LunaWofl (Apr 13, 2019)

Regardless of the... trans... is it isn't it... stuff... interpretations... kerfuffles...

*cough* hopefully bypassing the unrelated to the topic at large.

Since when have people been in support of wanting all the people in armies? I mean yay patriotism I guess if that's your shtick, but these days armies are just a front to deter other countries from attacking rather than outright deployment (give or take war mongering authorities)
AT BEST trans numbers are around 0.014% for mtf and 0.003% for ftm (according to the DSM-V) of the population, ya think the army is really so starved as to need to rely on such a percentage?
And it's not like there aren't downsides to being trans in the army either, if you're actually put out in the field and then are stuck not being able to take hormones for one unexpected reason or another, then what? Wouldn't that just add to the stress?
Not only that but when they're run as a business, wouldn't saving money and making more profit be more important to an army? Armies have always been about efficiency more than anything.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Apr 13, 2019)

The less people in the military the better in my eyes. I could go on forever about how the military hasn't really served us since oh about 1812, but from my understanding WW1 and 2 were just the beginning of US interventionism and playing world police. Fun fact: there hasn't been a constitutional declaration of war from congress since 1942, meaning every military operation since then is unconstitutional and illegal. 

Even if this act was done out of discrimination, hatred, fear, whatever, it's doing trans people a huge favor not having to fight in top secret black ops illegal excursions.


----------



## urherenow (Apr 13, 2019)

Anyway, back to the actual topic at hand, this quote says it PERFECTLY. Although the person attributed to having said this, is NOT one to have said this anyway (that dude never served a day in his life)


> Question: How can President Trump claim to represent all U.S citizens, regardless of sexual orientation, when he banned transgenders from joining the military? Isn't that discrimination?
> 
> Trey Gowdy's Response:
> "Nobody has a right to serve in the Military. Nobody! What makes you people think the Military is an equal opportunity employer? It is very far from it - and for good reasons - let me cite a few.
> ...


----------



## urherenow (Apr 13, 2019)

Subtle Demise said:


> The less people in the military the better in my eyes. I could go on forever about how the military hasn't really served us since oh about 1812 <snip>
> there hasn't been a constitutional declaration of war from congress since 1942


Wow. You’re so clueless. Ask African African Americans if the military has done them any good. Where would they be if the POTUS hadn’t used them to take on the south?

Since 1812? Do you have any clue where we would be right now if we hadn’t bee n involved in WWI or WWII? Obviously not. Illegal? Oh, please do tell us when you passed your bar exam.


----------



## cots (Apr 13, 2019)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The one of the highest cause of death for males is sucide
> https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2010/LCOD_WHITEmen2010.pdf
> https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2015/race-ethnicity/index.htm
> http://www.idph.state.il.us/menshealth/healththreats.htm
> ...



I agree that males do tend to commit suicide more then females, but if you look at the statistics surrounding the transsexual movement (especially those who are transitioning or have failed to transition) there is a very high rate of attempted suicide. I agree that being rubbed the wrong way can contribute to feeling suicidal, but by nature suicide is done by oneself so it's not someone else's fault when a transsexual decides to try to kill themselves. No one forces them to do so. I don't think there's anything wrong with being an outcast and if you've ended up one more than likely choices you've made in your life have contributed to it. You can try to blame the choices on whatever you want - how you feel, where you were born, your parents, but in the end they were the choices you made. You can't go around trying to control other people - that doesn't and will never work. Trying to force other people to only say certain things, only act a certain way or feel a certain way doesn't work when they try to do that to you so why is it justified if you try to do it to them? You control yourself and if you have tried to commit suicide then that was your doing. It was a bad choice that you made and hopefully if you have done such a thing you learned that it wasn't the answer and moved on.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lilith Valentine said:


> I was in a bit of hurry, I edited my post to be a bit more accurate. One of the highest causes of deaths in males is suicides and I included additional links to back up that statement. That being said, it doesn't change what I said in my post.
> Side note, so the staff is just going to continue to keep this extremely transphobic thread open? Why does the staff treat transphobia as such a small issue? The OP clearly just made this thread to spread their transphobic comments and it's rather interesting how the staff just ignores that fact and even replies to my comment instead.



I'm not scared of transsexual people. I simply do not agree with their lifestyle choices - just as transsexual people do not agree with mine. How is that unfair?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lilith Valentine said:


> The topic itself isn't the issue and is well within the purpose of this area in the threads. The issue very clearly didn't make this topic to talk about the issue addressed and just made this topic to spread transphobic comments. Very little of the OP's post actually relates back to the actual article and knowing the OP's history, signature, and comments, it's obvious what the OP's intend was
> 
> The OP's posts are good examples of what transphobia is. And honestly, "disagreeing" with people being trans is also transphobia, "disagreeing" with someone for being trans literally means disagreeing with them simply existing in this world. It's like "disagreeing" with someone being black or gay. Transphobic opinions actually kill people and there's no reason to respect them



I haven't addressed the military linked article too much because most of the comments from other coming to me aren't related to it. I don't agree with the transsexual life style, but that however doesn't mean that I am scared of transsexual people or hate them. Trying to say because I disagree is being transphobic is the same thing as trying to tell me that I have to agree otherwise I cannot comment on the issue and I should be silenced and my posts deleted. I'm not trying to tell you how to think, just how I think.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> I hate to agree with Foxi on this one, but for the most part I couldn't find much that could really be classified as blatantly inflammatory or transphobic...at least if I'm trying to remain impartial.  I removed one sentence from the OP.  Everything else is mostly just him repeating himself.



Good to know if you personally disagree with me you have to power to remove what you disagree with from my posts.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



urherenow said:


> Wow. You’re so clueless. Ask African African Americans if the military has done them any good. Where would they be if the POTUS hadn’t used them to take on the south?
> 
> Since 1812? Do you have any clue where we would be right now if we hadn’t bee n involved in WWI or WWII? Obviously not. Illegal? Oh, please do tell us when you passed your bar exam.



I don't think the color of your skin should dictate if you can serve in the military. I don't think that if you're gay or lesbian that should matter either. I also don't think if your transsexual that should matter. If you want to put your life on the line to protect our country then you should be able to do so. I wasn't aware of the IQ requirement that FOXI brought up either. You would think if your IQ was lower you wouldn't be put in a position that required a higher IQ. I mean, you don't want someone who can't drive driving your car, right? I also see the point that certain ways that some people act might interfere with daily operations and in that case those people shouldn't be given a "pass" because of their gender and should follow the rules that everyone else does. That should be something they agree upon when joining up - to follow the rules.


----------



## Captain_N (Apr 13, 2019)

People that are confused about what sex/gender dont seem to be the most capable soldiers. Its true. you have to have a clear mind and follow orders correctly. I'm kind of tired of giving people that think they can parade around making up different genders special attention. All that make believe does not change a guys Y chromosome into an X or a ladies X to a Y. Simple science.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 13, 2019)

Apparently every single trans person can't have a clear mind and follow orders. Also, the rest of the soldiers are perfect and don't have any problems they have to deal with.


To be clear, I'm not gung-ho about sending everyone to the army. I just don't think the choice should be taken from them.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Apr 13, 2019)

Transgenderism is STILL a mental disorder. It's still a manufactured social illness. 

It's also one of the only "illnesses" that I've ever heard of that allows the person suffering from it to force other people to suspend their accurate view of reality, in favor of moddlycoddling someone who is mentally ill. 

Like Ben Shapiro said, if someone has schizophrenia, the solution to help them deal with it isn't to convince them that, yes, the radio IS talking to you. You don't treat a mental disorder by agreeing with someone who thinks they need to mutilate their body so they can be a better fake version of what they can never be. 

Chromosomes, not feelings, determine whether you are biologically male or female. XX. XY. Everything outside of that spectrum is an anomaly. XX can never "change" to "become" XY, and vice versa. 

I fully support Trump's plan to prevent the mentally ill from trying to force everyone else around them to ignore reality. It isn't the job of the US Armed Forces to pander to snowflakes. 

If you are "transgendered", a term I use with absolute and utter scorn, and you want to serve your country, how about you become an advocate for veterans? How about you help them actually get decent medical care, and maybe help to reform the VA? There are other ways to serve your country that don't involve you presenting your mangled clitoris as a penis and pretending that you're a man, when you don't have the physical ability to lift and carry one of your buddies if he gets injured on the battlefield.


----------



## cottonMOUSE (Apr 13, 2019)

Neo Draven said:


> don't have the physical ability to lift and carry one of your buddies if he gets injured on the battlefield.


someone doesn't know what regular shots of testosterone does for muscle development


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Apr 13, 2019)

I guess that's why there are so many "transgendered" women who "transition" to male whom are currently fighting (and winning) in the UFC and in MMA.

Oh, wait... the only people who "transition" and then play with the other side, and WIN... are men...

Hmmm...

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ransgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-youre-a-man


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 13, 2019)

I can understand the rational behind the ban. Not every career is made for everyone, it doesn't mean you're any less of a person simply because a certain field isn't for you

*EDIT: *
I didn't realise this thread was such a dumpster fire, wanting a thread deleted simply because you don't like it or disagree with someones is asinine. Everyone should have equal opportunity to state their opinions and debate them. You won't get anywhere in life if you just close your eyes every time you disagree with someone, and you'll just be reinforcing their opinions if you remove it rather than talking about it


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Apr 13, 2019)

Why should society be tolerant of someone forcing their imaginary social construct of a mental disorder on everyone else?


----------



## jahrs (Apr 13, 2019)

So i havent read through all 6 pages of this garbage fire. but from what ive read no one has made a legitimately valid point that is on either end of the extremes that cant be proven or disproven by a single google search. Heres the reality not all trans people are mentally ill there are some in there right state of mind who just want to be different just like people who get tattoos or body mods do except to a grander scale. However the ones who cannot accept that that they were born one way and refuse to see that reality are sadly delusional. thats not all of them though just the few who have been flaunted out and used as examples.

Basically if you know and accept you were born male/female but want to be something else and go through with it. Then your fine but if you refuse to see reality and just want to force a fantasy on the world and claim its reality then thats a disorder.


----------



## Smoker1 (Apr 13, 2019)

Please, do explain how someone being Gay/Lesbian or Transgender would hurt the Military???????? If they can do their Job, and are Respectful to others and dont force themselves onto others..........I really dont see a "Problem"


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2019)

cots said:


> Good to know if you personally disagree with me you have to power to remove what you disagree with from my posts.


Just try to avoid intentionally derogatory and inflammatory language the best you can.  You can present facts and opinions in an objective manner without attacking/deplatforming an entire demographic.


----------



## JeepX87 (Apr 13, 2019)

After been on other forums and Facebook (FB) for many years, I usually ignore -phobia comments and posts, so they aren't worth my time to educate or correct them.

Y'all should be glad that GBAtemp is much less toxic than FB by far, in my experience and I found GBAtemp moderators to be fair and doing their jobs, but not case with FB when FB ignored your report over threatening or hateful comments.

I don't necessarily agree with OP but I found his post to be fairly reasonable and not hateful like you seen on FB.

I'm disqualified from serving in the military due profoundly Deaf and low vision, but no hard feeling. I do have a lot of respect for LGBT communities.

By the way, my sister is currently serving in US Air Force and doing very well after stationed in Virginia last year.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Just try to avoid intentionally derogatory and inflammatory language the best you can.  You can present facts and opinions in an objective manner without attacking/deplatforming an entire demographic.


The edit was approved by the moderation staff, or more specifically by me. As I said earlier, the subject can be freely discussed, but _any_ derogatory language and slurs will be met with a swift reaction, as per our forum rules. Everyone is welcome to have an opinion, but the language used to express it mustn't be inflammatory.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Apr 13, 2019)

I'd rather attack an argument than a person. A clever man (a MAN, with Y chromosome) can annihilate any snowflake by using wit, without needing to resort to base personal insults.

S'more fun that way.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 13, 2019)

While I do think the word transphobia sometimes gets thrown around too easily, it clear that some people here are just hating and don't care rather being transgender actually affects their abilities as a soldier.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 13, 2019)

cots said:


> I don't think the color of your skin should dictate if you can serve in the military. I don't think that if you're gay or lesbian that should matter either. I also don't think if your transsexual that should matter. If you want to put your life on the line to protect our country then you should be able to do so. I wasn't aware of the IQ requirement that FOXI brought up either. You would think if your IQ was lower you wouldn't be put in a position that required a higher IQ. I mean, you don't want someone who can't drive driving your car, right? I also see the point that certain ways that some people act might interfere with daily operations and in that case those people shouldn't be given a "pass" because of their gender and should follow the rules that everyone else does. That should be something they agree upon when joining up - to follow the rules.


The test they use is non-standard, it's called the AFQT, or the Armed Forces Qualification Test. While not technically a standardised IQ test per se, it maps onto intelligence testing. In order to pass, you must score in the tenth percentile or above, which effectively translates to 81-93 IQ with a preference of higher IQ. The average pass is 85. The army simply determined that there is nothing you can possibly do in the Army with a low IQ, you are in fact a liability and endanger your fellow soldiers. It's a standard section of the ASVAB, or the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. The questions are "g-loaded", meaning they're intended to test general intelligence in order to determine your vocational aptitude, as the name implies. It's a cheeky way to get around anti-discrimination law.


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 13, 2019)

Neo Draven said:


> I'd rather attack an argument than a person. A clever man (a MAN, with Y chromosome) can annihilate any snowflake by using wit, without needing to resort to base personal insults.
> 
> S'more fun that way.


A Y chromosome activates a gene which makes cells create testosterone. Testosterone determines the development of male characteristics and whether a fetus will develop a penis and testicles. The cells also create antimullerian hormone which prevents the development of the female reproductive tract.

So basically if through some birth defect a fetus with XX chromosomes develops into a male, it's because of hormones that are normally created by a gene carried by the Y chromosome.

So explain to me why an XX man whom has the same hormones as an XY man isn't intelligent and how women who lack hormones which 99.9% of the time rely on the Y chromosome are also intelligent?


----------



## AmandaRose (Apr 13, 2019)

Snugglevixen said:


> A Y chromosome activates a gene which makes cells create testosterone. Testosterone determines the development of male characteristics and whether a fetus will develop a penis and testicles. The cells also create antimullerian hormone which prevents the development of the female reproductive tract.
> 
> So basically if through some birth defect a fetus with XX chromosomes develops into a male, it's because of hormones that are normally created by a gene carried by the Y chromosome.
> 
> So explain to me why an XX man whom has the same hormones as an XY man isn't intelligent and how women who lack hormones 99.9% of the time rely on the Y chromosome are also intelligent?


I was just in the middle of typing pretty much exactly what you just posted lol.


----------



## WeedZ (Apr 13, 2019)

Do they not teach physiology anymore?



Snugglevixen said:


> A Y chromosome activates a gene which makes cells create testosterone. Testosterone determines the development of male characteristics and whether a fetus will develop a penis and testicles. The cells also create antimullerian hormone which prevents the development of the female reproductive tract.
> 
> So basically if through some birth defect a fetus with XX chromosomes develops into a male, it's because of hormones that are normally created by a gene carried by the Y chromosome.
> 
> So explain to me why an XX man whom has the same hormones as an XY man isn't intelligent and how women who lack hormones which 99.9% of the time rely on the Y chromosome are also intelligent?


A gene is a set of instructions found in DNA, which is contained in a chromosome. The presence of the y chromosome holds the instructions to create a Male. Has nothing to do with production of testosterone. Testosterone production is a function of the gonads, not random cells, which in males is the testes. Some other gender neutral organs create testosterone as well, but my point is youre a Male before the testosterone production. I could go on, but basically you could have said we all came from storks and it would have been about as accurate.


----------



## cots (Apr 14, 2019)

KingVamp said:


> While I do think the word transphobia sometimes gets thrown around too easily, it clear that some people here are just hating and don't care rather being transgender actually affects their abilities as a soldier.



The word transphobia is often used in the same manner as bigot and racist. Not only does it not apply to the situation, but it's simply being used to oppress other peoples point of views. Don't agree with something that someones says - simply throw out the word to silence the person. Misappropriately overusing the word actually does harm to the people that are actual victims of people being transphobic, bigots and/or racists as the words become hollow sounding to the people that you're trying to oppress. I don't see how going around acting the same as the people you dislike is going to solve anything.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Apr 14, 2019)

You said it all right there. Anomaly. Remember when I said that? Birth defects. Not XX, not XY. Birth defects. Anomaly. Would you like for me to post the dictionary definition of anomaly for you?

Testosterone treatments cannot change XX to XY. Period.

Testosterone treatments cannot alter every single cell within your body to contain a Y chromosome, even if you can achieve the same effects that a present Y chromosome would have achieved naturally.

Anything else?


----------



## cots (Apr 14, 2019)

Neo Draven said:


> You said it all right there. Anomaly. Remember when I said that? Birth defects. Not XX, not XY. Birth defects. Anomaly. Would you like for me to post the dictionary definition of anomaly for you?



Birth defects and anomalies occur in such a small percentage of the population that trying to use them to justify the entire transsexual movement is really not a smart way to go about it. I'm not saying that is what you're doing, but often to support their viewpoint the presence of such things is used to try to convey "a reason" why everyone acts like they do when the fact is only a very minute percentage of transsexual people have such anomalies.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Apr 14, 2019)

Transexual refers to a style of dress. Transgender refers to the mental disorder that makes a boy think he's a girl.


----------



## Viri (Apr 14, 2019)

Smoker1 said:


> Please, do explain how someone being Gay/Lesbian


Nobody in this thread said they shouldn't. Most in this thread agree that gays should be allowed in the military.


----------



## bi388 (Apr 14, 2019)

urherenow said:


> heh. Figures someone would say this and someone would also "like" it. God gave us the brains to make medicine. He also made us in his image. You are trying to alter that image. I could go all day, but you're loony tunes anyway. There's just no point.
> 
> 
> Trans aren't natural. You can't see the distinction?


Prove it. To both points. God this whole thread is a mess but this is what made me respond when reading through it. You cant make claims like these without the burden or proof. Also, you used the Appeal To Nature fallacy, implying whats "natural" is inherently better.


----------



## cots (Apr 14, 2019)

Neo Draven said:


> Transexual refers to a style of dress. Transgender refers to the mental disorder that makes a boy think he's a girl.



Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their assigned sex. Transgender people are sometimes called transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Apr 14, 2019)

So explain to me why an XX man whom has the same hormones as an XY man isn't intelligent and how women who lack hormones which 99.9% of the time rely on the Y chromosome are also intelligent?

Who said anything about intelligence? People with a mental disorder can still be intelligent.


----------



## bi388 (Apr 14, 2019)

Last time this "debate" happened I posted a bunch of scientific, peer reviewed studies showing that trans peoples brains are physically and observably more similar to their identified sex than birth sex. If i need to i can go back in my post history and find them. Id like to see why physical body characteristics only matter until they dont support your side, then theyre ignored.


----------



## Viri (Apr 14, 2019)

bi388 said:


> Last time this "debate" happened I posted a bunch of scientific, peer reviewed studies showing that trans peoples brains are physically and observably more similar to their identified sex than birth sex. If i need to i can go back in my post history and find them. Id like to see why physical body characteristics only matter until they dont support your side, then theyre ignored.


Are you trying to tell me that a transgendered female, is a female brain in a male's body? If that's the case, then it's even worse than I originally thought. That sounds awful, and probably leads to a ton of mental illness.


----------



## bi388 (Apr 14, 2019)

Viri said:


> Are you trying to tell me that a transgendered female, is a female brain in a male's body? If that's the case, then it's even worse than I originally thought. That sounds awful, and probably leads to a ton of mental illness.


Yes. Ill find the studies when i get the chance. Technically being trans isnt a mental illness though, dysphoria is. Theres a distinction because some trans people dont get dysphoria, and some non trans people do. I know a male who has abnormally large amounts of estrogen and it gives him dysphoria when though he isnt trans.


----------



## Quantumcat (Apr 14, 2019)

Has gone offtopic and become a trash fire


----------

