# Logic behind Christianity?



## PyroSpark (Jul 10, 2011)

I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close  to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?


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## haflore (Jul 10, 2011)

Not really. You're better off just adopting whatever beliefs make sense to you.


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## yuyuyup (Jul 10, 2011)

I think it's logical to have blind faith in an afterlife rather than succumb to the insanity of oblivion


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## Slyakin (Jul 10, 2011)

Religion...

Just choose what's best for you. I don't know what to say to this, really.


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## Depravo (Jul 10, 2011)

Logic and religion are mutually exclusive. Logic encourages us to question whilst religion demands we blindly accept.


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## Warrior522 (Jul 10, 2011)

yuyuyup said:
			
		

> I think it's logical to have blind faith in an afterlife rather than succumb to the insanity of oblivion



It's called Agnosticism.


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## Daizu (Jul 10, 2011)

No religion makes sense no matter how you look at them. There'll always be something that contradicts it. If you want to believe in God, you do that. It's already been said, but believe what you want to believe. If you want to believe in God, that doesn't necessarily mean you need to be a follower of any religion. You just need to say "I believe in God" and there. You're a believer.


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## Youkai (Jul 10, 2011)

Why would someone who thinks logical at all think religion would be something good to adapt to oO?

Relegion is something for stupid people who need this as an explanation why they are alive and others just need it when they have problems cuz they want something impossible to happen ...


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well sorry if someone feels offended by me saying its for stupid ppl but well everyone who would think logical would say most of what religion thaughts is bullshit even thaught some ideas about not doing bad things are nice...


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes it is. You don't have to take everything in the Bible 100% literally. If you're a Christian this is especially true of the Old Testament.

But, you can't have faith based on logic. You either believe, even against evidence and logic, or you don't.


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## YetoJesse (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm gonna post 2 pictures, showing you my believe between logic and religion.


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## Slyakin (Jul 10, 2011)

Oh goodness, like all religious topics before, this is getting flamey.

Maybe you should go ahead and lock the topic before it's too late?


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## PyroSpark (Jul 10, 2011)

If it gets TOO bad, I'll lock. I'm really appreciating everyone's thoughts on this atm.


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## Shinigami357 (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't believe that faith or belief should ever be blind. That's like you closing your eyes and letting a blind man lead you across a busy intersection - you're willingly screwing yourself and letting everything come down to how strong your inner fiber is. And therein lies the problem: people's inner fiber aren't strong enough.

On one end, you have the people who view everything as "an act of God". Cat ate your pet hamster? Broke your hand in 3 places after someone pushed you? Teacher gives you an F cuz he don't like you? All these, they'll explain away as "God's will". Whatever happened to our own free will [that God gave us] is up in the air, as far as they're concerned.

The other end of the spectrum, there are the people who use the religion like crutches. Junior died? House got foreclosed? Hell, won a $96049604569 lottery jackpot? All they do is say "God help me as I go through this [insert situation here]." These guys didn't receive the memo that God helps those who help themselves.

I'm not saying every christian is like that, but I've seen a lot of them, regardless of denomination [that the right term???]. Like I said, some people, they don't have inner fiber strong enough to handle believing in something, worse yet if it's blind belief.

No, IMHO, a person should only believe in what he thinks is right, and not some doctrine that some wheezing old guy laid down. It's true, belief is the strongest thing man has, bar none. And that's exactly why we shouldn't just surrender our beliefs like that. I hope you got my point.


PS
Again, nothing against hardcore religious types out there. Just stating my take on it. Chill!


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## Burton (Jul 10, 2011)

Respecting everyone's opinion in this thread

It's time for me to put my two cents in this matter:



Spoiler


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## Shinigami357 (Jul 10, 2011)

@Burton - Is it coincidence that the top coin has the side that says "In God we trust" or is that your message?


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## Blaze163 (Jul 10, 2011)

I like to think of myself as fairly logical (aside from my chocobo obsession but that's a different matter) and I've never put any stock in religion. Well, that's not strictly true. I went to a church youth club, admittedly more for the cute girl who invited me than any religious reason. And while I was there I decided that the spirit of religion is no bad thing. They accepted that I wasn't convinced by their beliefs. The group taught good moral messages. And at the core that's what Christianity is, a guideline on how to be a good person. There's nothing wrong with that. 

It's when you take moral guidance and build a powerbase on it that the shit hits the fan. I'm sorry if this offends anyone but I simply cannot take the Pope seriously. An old man in a dress giving out sexual advice. You gotta admit, it's a golden idea on paper. And yet people will follow blindly because they see him as some sort of conduit to the almighty. He's not. He's a man. A fallable human male.

The simple fact is human beings without exception crave power. We're driven by primal forces to have control over our lives. And we're not above using people's deep held beliefs to gain an advantage over them. Religion is used to control the masses, simple as. Maybe there is an afterlife. Maybe there is a God of some kind. Hell, I've been technically dead for a few minutes and I have a hazy recollection of a voice (in case you're wondering, a female voice I didn't recognise, very soft sounding, telling me my time wasn't up yet and that I still had a task to attend to, and I do recall the faint smell of flowers), but even I refuse to place my faith in something that cannot be proven to exist. Even if there IS an afterlife, I'll deal with it when I get there. Simple fact is that I don't know for sure that there is anything else waiting for me at the end of it all. I DO know that I'm alive now. I'd rather worry about something real than something that could just be a load of old bollocks.


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## Shoat (Jul 10, 2011)

PyroSpark said:
			
		

> So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?




No it is not.

The only way to be part of a religion is by completely blind belief, because you will find utterly questionable content not only everywhere all over the bible, but also in most other religions.

Religion and common sense do not go well together.



However, you can still believe that there is a god without dedicating to a religion (in this case "being a Christian").

Just avoid manmade religions if their ridiculous claims make you think "wtf seriously?" every single time. 
It's not like you HAVE to join any of them in order to be allowed to believe in something.



That aside, I do not "believe".
I consider it possible that a god or god-like entity exists. I will neither claim that it does, or claim that it does not, because there is proof for neither. I think that everyone is free to believe in a god.
I will, however, always argue that religion is complete and utter bullshit and that the bible, the koran and any other of these writings were completely made up by a normal human being at some point and cannot be viewed as truth.


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## _Chaz_ (Jul 10, 2011)

We really REALLY don't need another religion thread right now.


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## Snailface (Jul 10, 2011)

YetoJesse said:
			
		

> _*snip*_







That's fine if you think some religious people are beneath you, YetoJesse, but casting the assertion of the religious community as a whole, "mentally retarded", is a little disingenuous, don't you think?
MLK was a devoutly religious man, and yet he is regarded as one of the greatest thinkers of our time. Read the "Letter from the Birmingham Jail" and see if you spot a wee bit of logic and intelligence in it.

http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/re...rom_birmingham/

Of course, there are many other religious people now and throughout history who have shown remarkable intelligence as there are people of non-faith who have made great intellectual contributions to society. Maybe we should focus on the content of their contributions instead of casting aspersions based on something as trivial as their (non)belief in the afterlife.


Spoiler



I apologize posting MLK's noble image next to that imbecilic, juvenile picture-rant, but I had to do it to make my point. Sorry.


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## mcp2 (Jul 10, 2011)

Religion is lost on the younger generations who _blindly_ follow their liberal, psuedo-intellectual friends online regurtitating the same old arguments against religion.



			
				Depravo said:
			
		

> Logic and religion are mutually exclusive. Logic encourages us to question whilst religion demands we blindly accept.
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Funny thing, you've just played right into my stereotype about the type of people athiests are. You actually haven't said anything, just posted two stupid pictures detailing the opinions of other people. Have you ever read a religious book? People dismiss religion without even giving it a chance. Where's the logic in that? Another point, vast majority of the most influential scientists, mathematicians of the past hundreds of years believed in God, I don't think that affected their logic.


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## TheDarkSeed (Jul 10, 2011)

A lot of my friends just believe in god. no Christianity, Judaism, or Muslim. They believe in one creator. And I think that's fine if it makes you happy. Religion is not bad. It gives people something to live by. Although there are people who use religion as a means to benefit themselves.


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## jan777 (Jul 10, 2011)

Logic and religion doesn't mix. It's like oil and water.


They say that religion is there to explain what logic can't, so yeah. I learned that in summer cyber school.


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## AlanJohn (Jul 10, 2011)

There is no logic.
Believing in religion is like thinking that your gameboy can play xbox 360 games.


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## Youkai (Jul 10, 2011)

mcp2 said:
			
		

> Religion is lost on the younger generations who _blindly_ follow their liberal, psuedo-intellectual friends online regurtitating the same old arguments against religion.
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of course people who believe in the church are offended still it is at it is religion is only made up to get people do as wished to do.
think about it in the dark ages the church was powerful and most bad things happened thanks to Religion,
look at scientologie or however they are written ... they use religion and believe to manipulate people and everyone who is stupid enough gets caught up in their believes.

Its no wonder the more advanced humankind gets the less they need to believe in something like a God.
Scientists more or less found out about the Big Bang (well ok religion says its bullshit or if they stray from the bible they say ok but god made the big bang -.-V) or think about evolution its "proven" that we did not just pop out of the earth cuz god wanted it like this .

P.S. I am no teen as you might see in my profile i am even older than you are so don't try to lecture me oO
(i give it that my posts might have sounded chilish especialy for believers still its just common sense)


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 10, 2011)

PyroSpark said:
			
		

> So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?
> Yes.
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> QUOTE(Depravo @ Jul 10 2011, 07:20 PM) Logic and religion are mutually exclusive. Logic encourages us to question whilst religion demands we blindly accept.


Not all religion is illogical.
Most of them are, though.


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## Tanas (Jul 10, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

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How can a person who believes in something that is illogical, be a logical thinker?


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## mcp2 (Jul 10, 2011)

Youkai said:
			
		

> of course people who believe in the church are offended still it is at it is religion is only made up to get people do as wished to do.
> think about it in the dark ages the church was powerful and most bad things happened thanks to Religion,
> look at scientologie or however they are written ... they use religion and believe to manipulate people and everyone who is stupid enough gets caught up in their believes.
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So you would rather believe the conspiracy theory that religion was created to control the masses over religion being true? Which has the firmest grounding? About the Big Bang, let me tell you that the first few stages of the Big Bang occured in roughly...3 seconds. 3 seconds seems a lot shorter than a few weeks don't you think? I'm glad you put "proven" when talking about evolution because as you know it's still a theory, not proved yet, may never be.


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## mcp2 (Jul 10, 2011)

Tanas said:
			
		

> How can a person who believes in something that is illogical, be a logical thinker?



Oh no they believe in Religion, they don't have a brain! What happened to all those scientists and mathematicians, the epitomies of logical thinkers, that beleived in God?!


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## Youkai (Jul 10, 2011)

well yeah i believe it was made to controll people over everything else even thaught it might really help some.

and yeah you actually can't really prove the evolution but there are enough findings that at least prove that what the bible says is completely false ...

ok maybe there is some sort of beeing higher than us but if thats so there is noone living on earth who is able to tell something about it as long as "it" doesn't show itselfs to someone which would mean every religion that is out there is more or less wrong.
if there would be something out there it would either stay silent or show itselfs to more than just one person.


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## ThePowerOutage (Jul 10, 2011)

Tanas said:
			
		

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Not all religion is illogical.
And, btw, saying God used the big bang to create the universe isn't straying from the Bible. Will expand after sort out this keyboard


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## Midna (Jul 10, 2011)

Snailface said:
			
		

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Amen brother. I'm not a religious man, but there's a lot of religious people I respect greatly.

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Also Youkai, with that kind of spelling, how did you make it through 8th grade?


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## Deleted_171835 (Jul 10, 2011)

Midna said:
			
		

> Also Youkai, with that kind of spelling, how did you make it through 8th grade?


Not everybody was born in a country that has English as their main language.


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## DeathStrudel (Jul 10, 2011)

mcp2 said:
			
		

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believing in god and believing in religion are 2 different things


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## BobTheJoeBob (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes, you can be a logical thinker while following a religion. There have been quite a few people who were both logical and religious.


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## mcp2 (Jul 10, 2011)

Youkai said:
			
		

> well yeah i believe it was made to controll people over everything else even thaught it might really help some.
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I, and many others, don't see how you can believe in God and not worship God.


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## DeathStrudel (Jul 10, 2011)

mcp2 said:
			
		

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Then you are exceptionally closed minded. People can have different opinions than you, ya know?


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## BobTheJoeBob (Jul 10, 2011)

DeathStrudel said:
			
		

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It wouldn't make much sense to believe in a being that created everything and can do anything and not worship him/her.
I'm not saying it's impossible for someone to believe in god but not worship him/her, but it's just not very likely.


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## mcp2 (Jul 10, 2011)

DeathStrudel said:
			
		

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And you may need to return to school because I never claimed to have imposed my opinions on anyone else.


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## DeathStrudel (Jul 10, 2011)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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yes, it really can. some people believe god simply set the world in motion and that he plays not part in our lives, why would they worship him? you are also closed minded. you're thinking about it from your point of view instead of somebody elses


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## BobTheJoeBob (Jul 10, 2011)

DeathStrudel said:
			
		

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That's not being 'closed minded'. The word you were looking for, is ignorance, since I was ignorant of this theory. Also, even with that theory, there would be people worshipping their creator, regardless if he was only there to set it in motion or not.


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## mcp2 (Jul 10, 2011)

DeathStrudel said:
			
		

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Can't you think about it from our point of view?


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## spinal_cord (Jul 10, 2011)

mcp2 said:
			
		

> -------8


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## DeathStrudel (Jul 10, 2011)

mcp2 said:
			
		

> Can't you think about it from our point of view?


But your point of view is "this doesn't make sense to me," when I'm saying that it does to other people. Just because you can't understand why somebody would think a certain way doesn't mean it's unlikely for people to think differently from you.


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## lex luthor (Jul 10, 2011)

spinal_cord said:
			
		

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## Blaze163 (Jul 10, 2011)

Whatever you need to get through life is your business, I suppose. If you feel you need to believe in a God of some kind to give you hope for the future, you go right ahead. But remember that's what you felt YOU needed. Nobody should ever have religion crammed down their throats. If there's one thing I cannot stand it's 'God Botherers' such as Jehova's Witnesses. If I want a lecture on something you can't back up, I'd have damn well asked. Don't bug me at home, or in the street. You wanna believe, you go ahead. But I don't recall asking you to 'save my soul'. And when you can't even offer anything other than theories on why your own soul is saved, I don't in all seriousness think you should be trying to save anyone else. What if you're wrong but another religion is right? You'd be condemning people with your actions.

Personally I chose to believe in a few things. I believe in reincarnation because it's pretty much scientific fact. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, physics 101. So when we die the energy powering out bodies has to go somewhere, usually into the soil via burial. That energy in the soil allows new life to grow, which in turn feeds the great cycle of life, allowing all of nature to live and grow. It's not quite the Gaia theory, which still has a few holes in it. But it's as close to scientific truth as I can find in a religion. 

But at the most basic level, I believe in myself, my friends, and the moral code we've chosen. I think that's all I need to truly believe in to be a good person. If there is a God watching and judging us all, I think he'd rather see righteous action in the pursuit of a paradise on earth than watch us bow and scrape and waste this life worrying about the next one.


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## Shoat (Jul 10, 2011)

lex luthor said:
			
		

> our worship is still a *duty*



Wow, you just brought the worst word ever invented into a religion-discussion. This cannot end well.


Seriously, what the hell? "Duty" is something mankind made up completely on it's own. 

And it is complete nonsense. 

Whether you use it in combination with patriotism (another completely idiotic concept) or in combination with believing in a god (something that one decides to believe inside his own mind cannot have anything like a duty forced upon it).


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## Hebon (Jul 10, 2011)

Depravo said:
			
		

> Logic and religion are mutually exclusive. Logic encourages us to question whilst religion demands we blindly accept.



That's actually untrue. Many aspects of Christianity allow people to question it, and the world around us. It's just a common misconception that if you question it, you're a heathen and are going to hell or that it's a sin.
As a Christian myself, I believe in God and the Bible, however, there are many aspects that confuse me and make little sense.  I try to ask as many knowledgeable people as I can and get their different opinions on it. I am encouraged to research and read the bible and pray, and try to figure it out on my own. In the end, I end up going for the simplest, but most believable answer because I think the bible shouldn't be complicated.

I don't think God made the Bible difficult to understand. I think people made it difficult to understand.


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## HateBreed (Jul 10, 2011)

Do what I do. Believe in a Creator, when you need help, pray to the Creator. If something is powerful enough to create us then there must be some connection between us. So yeah, Christianity might be wrong, hell all religions might be wrong, but for life to form and evolve by sheer luck seems pretty difficult to believe, but for there to be a God that really gives the free will just to taunt you with it is even harder to believe. No God could ever be so narsacistic to really damn you for eternity for not worshiping. Biblically speaking, God had angels to worship him. God made man to worship him but gave him the option to do so. But to not worship means eternal damnation thus rendering free will useless. So yeah, Creator + Faith - Religion = Happy Camper


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## Zetta_x (Jul 10, 2011)

I facepalm whenever I see religious people try to prove God.

For two reasons:

1)99.9% of them do not know what a 'proof' is
2)Even if they did have a valid proof, they believe if they prove there exists a God then that makes their religion more true (which it does not).


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## _Chaz_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Can't we all just realize that logic and religion don't mingle together well?

Once we do that, the world can be a better place.


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## HateBreed (Jul 10, 2011)

The bible is filled with contradictions, hate, incest, and slavery. I believe in a God, or a Creator, but the one in the bible isn't it. I've been Christian my whole life, did you know its a sin to wear 2 different types of fabrics


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## spinal_cord (Jul 10, 2011)

Hebon said:
			
		

> I don't think God made the Bible difficult to understand. I think people made it difficult to understand.



...because _people_ made the bible before they had a sound grasp of what they were talking about (creation etc.)


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## SamAsh07 (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm Muslim, but I question Afterlife, IMO I think after we die, there is just total darkness, nothing. And when the world ends, there'll be nothing but dark matter. I remember having these thoughts while on bed every night (like 9 years ago) and would get really scared and not sleep for like an hour or so.


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## lex luthor (Jul 10, 2011)

Shoat said:
			
		

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If you learn to read the complete reply instead of just quoting one word to reply something that doesn't have anything to do with the essence of my reply things would be more understandable.


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## Jamstruth (Jul 10, 2011)

Zetta_x said:
			
		

> I facepalm whenever I see religious people try to prove God.
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Do you have proof God doesn't exist? What we have are 2 unprovable theories that are fighting it out at the moment. I for one don't care what people believe and just let people be as much as I can. There are some things I think are just cons (spiritualism, horoscopes etc.) and will never agree with though. Faith Healers for instance are often just at it to con people out of money on their religious belief which is just cruel.


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## Youkai (Jul 10, 2011)

the most interesting thing in religion is that it remains the same in all ages ...

long time ago the church sayed "burn the witches" because there were people with knowledge to help people beyond the believe of god.
than there were "scientists" that were murdered by the church because they did blasphemie.
now the scientists are idiots that say there was evolution and a big bang ... noone should ever believe science they should burn scientists again -.-V

not to sure about other religions cuz i was only thaught christian things but still most of what they did was evil, even in our times with aids and whatnot they say condoms suck ... well ok not sure about latests discussions think the newest papst guy allowed it ?  
what good did the church ever do ?


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## Magmorph (Jul 10, 2011)

Jamstruth said:
			
		

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Just read the Bible and decide for yourself. If you finish the Bible you will have done something that the majority of Christians never do.


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## Zetta_x (Jul 10, 2011)

Jamstruth said:
			
		

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I never said anything about God not existing, I'm saying religious people trying to prove God exist are just wasting their time because it doesn't infer anything about their religion is accurate. So I don't know why you spent the time to quote me and to write that paragraph.

Besides, everyone has a different idea of what God is. If God is an omnipotent being that can do anything, by logic that is contradicting. But then religious people say God is above logic, then the same people try using logic to prove God exists which is contradictory because they just said God is above logic.

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TL;DR Proving there exists a God does not prove your religion is accurate, people vary the definition of God making it seem impossible to prove/disprove.


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## _Chaz_ (Jul 10, 2011)

Youkai said:
			
		

> the most interesting thing in religion is that it remains the same in all ages ...
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> long time ago the church sayed "burn the witches" because there were people with knowledge to help people beyond the believe of god.
> than there were "scientists" that were murdered by the church because they did blasphemie.
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The church did a lot to keep society in order and to prevent primitive people from killing others or themselves.

Personally, I feel that the church is no longer needed, as we now have the power and technology to do that without the fear of an all seeing bundle of clouds.


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## The Pi (Jul 10, 2011)

Religion is belief without proof, any solid proof of God (or whatever) would no longer make it religion but fact.

Any attempts to prove a "God" fail (Google the first cause arguement, design arguement etc)

Though any attempts to disprove "God" have no damaging disproof (save the "free choice" thing but that is disproved by a simple timeline [there is no such thing as "free choice" as everything is predetermined])

I normally stay out of these threads, since the far side of both sides tend to attack peoples opinions/beliefs. There's a difference between disscussion and attacking you know.


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## Zetta_x (Jul 10, 2011)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> The church did a lot to keep society in order and to prevent primitive people from killing others or themselves.
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> Personally, I feel that the church is no longer needed, as we now have the power and technology to do that without the fear of an all seeing bundle of clouds.



I agree with your reasons why church is no longer needed. Not only do they take an abundance amount of money to maintain, but it has to be one of the biggest reasons why a single religion will branch out in multiple variations because it's mainly ran on people's subjective ideas about religion.

We have the Bible, that should be all is needed for people to have faith and build onto their religion. Plus, big churches dedicated towards one religion is like a kick in the face to everyone elses religion. There is a Church near my house that has a giant billboard with the words "Jesus Loves You" and "Get back to Church". How intrusive...

--

While we can all agree religion threads can turn into flame fests, we all must admit, these threads are one of the few topics that encourage lots of thinking.


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## Narayan (Jul 10, 2011)

Zetta_x said:
			
		

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i agree with both of you, but i also think this will be a very hard thing to do for it will bring chaos in the system since there are still many people believing in it.  imagine nintendo going bankrupt.


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## Depravo (Jul 10, 2011)

Hebon said:
			
		

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Perhaps I should have used the word 'faith' rather than 'religion'. To have faith is to believe without proof and that in itself contradicts cold, hard logic. I wasn't endeavouring to suggest that religion is wrong only that it is, by definition, illogical.


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## Hebon (Jul 10, 2011)

spinal_cord said:
			
		

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## ThePowerOutage (Jul 10, 2011)

Christianity itself cannot be judged by the actions of the Church of England or by the Roman Catholic Church as many people are doing in this thread.


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## Narayan (Jul 10, 2011)

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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 11, 2011)

Narayan said:
			
		

> PS i don't believe god made humans unless there's proof.


I still think the complexities of life in general as well as the design of the universe should be proof enough, but hey, for some it isn't. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




There is proof staring people in the face, and they don't see it. Like one great big perception filter is in the way.


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## Narayan (Jul 11, 2011)

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i'm just the type of person who needs to know how he did it. 

not the "he molds adam from sand and blew into him to give him life" one. unless i do, i won't put god as the one who made everything. but i believe that everything started from something.


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 11, 2011)

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Well, the Bible isn't a science book, so the precise details weren't written in, but suffice it to say he designed the body and built it using materials also found on Earth, and then started off the bio-processes.
One day we might find out how more precisely.


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## Narayan (Jul 11, 2011)

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yeah that is exactly what i'm waiting for, i just wish i'm still alive by then...
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Spoiler



why don't you take me with you on one of your trips to the future? it might help.


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## Paarish (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't understand you guys. Why do you need proof? One of the whole points of God is for him to have amazing powers that is beyond human comprehension.


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## Blaze163 (Jul 11, 2011)

30084pm said:
			
		

> I don't understand you guys. Why do you need proof? One of the whole points of God is for him to have amazing powers that is beyond human comprehension.



I have abilities that are beyond the comprehension of most of the people I encounter. That doesn't make me a God. Although to be fair that's because the abilities in question are the ability to spell my own name, which is genuinely a mark of some considerable intellect around here.


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## Paarish (Jul 11, 2011)

Blaze163 said:
			
		

> 30084pm said:
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You are not God


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## Zetta_x (Jul 11, 2011)

30084pm said:
			
		

> I don't understand you guys. Why do you need proof? One of the whole points of God is for him to have amazing powers that is beyond human comprehension.



If HIS(???) powers are beyond human comprehension, then who is to say a religion based on his(why is it always a he?!) purpose is accurate?


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 11, 2011)

Zetta_x said:
			
		

> 30084pm said:
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He's also a person; you're supposed to create a relationship with him as a person, rather than what he can do.


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## Blaze163 (Jul 11, 2011)

30084pm said:
			
		

> Blaze163 said:
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I meant in my local area. Believe me when I say the people here weren't just hit with the stupid stick. The whole town was hit with the Dumbass Nuke. Seriously, pretty much everyone I pass on the street looks like they've just escaped from a lobotomy session and ran face first into a wall on the way out. Just look at the people I work with.

I wasn't trying to say I am God, I was simply saying that 'powers beyond our comprehension' is based entirely on where you're viewing from. I have abilities beyond the comprehension of my cat (I can clean the underside of my chin for a start) whereas Steven Hawking has abilities far beyond my comprehension. 

It was also a cheeky stab at a colleague I suspect is lurking around here. And if I'm right, GET BACK TO WORK YOU LAZY BASTARD!


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## Zetta_x (Jul 11, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

> Zetta_x said:
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My mind has officially been blown. This is my que to finish cooking my burritos and move on with my life.


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## Warrior522 (Jul 11, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

> Zetta_x said:
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Aaand THAT is why I became an Agnostic.


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 11, 2011)

Warrior522 said:
			
		

> ProtoKun7 said:
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...I...don't know what you're getting at.


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## Jugarina (Jul 11, 2011)

TOP 10 SIGNS YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN...

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by
other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people
evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical
claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah,
but you don`t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered
all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic
groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods
sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit
impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back
to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically
established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing
dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that
Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those
who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity
in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant"
and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to
convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues"
may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers.
You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the
remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the
Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.


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## _Chaz_ (Jul 11, 2011)

N.M. ZERO B.C. said:
			
		

> TOP 10 SIGNS YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN...
> 
> 10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by
> other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
> ...


I love you so much.


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## omatic (Jul 11, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

> Narayan said:
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That complexity simply proves that it's complex. It doesn't prove anything beyond that. Applying the same logic to other things would lead to disastrous results in situations where said logician is in charge of things. It's the kind of logic that erodes our courts.


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## granville (Jul 11, 2011)

There's some amount of logic and scientific reasoning for people believing in some sort of "architect". More i think than believing that the universe just spontaneously created itself from absolutely nothing (things always have an origin, someone or something that created things, a clock cannot build and wind itself without its maker). But beyond that, there's not much logic behind most teachings in Christianity (or other religions for that matter). I was raised with church teachings, i just can't figure out how people can believe such random stuff based on blind faith. This goes especially for now, when much of what was said in the bible has been factually refuted by real tangible science. It's gotten to a desperation point sadly.

I do like the bible. I find it a fabulous and very entertaining form of literature. But having grown up and being taught the real facts in life, it has become clear that it should belong in the fiction section. I like it in the same way that i like Lord of the Rings (boy will i get a lot of hate for that comment). Occasionally some words of wisdom are spread out in it as well though (though there's a lot of things i find offensive in it as well).


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 11, 2011)

granville said:
			
		

> There's some amount of logic and scientific reasoning for people believing in some sort of "architect". More i think than believing that the universe just spontaneously created itself from absolutely nothing (things always have an origin, someone or something that created things, a clock cannot build and wind itself without its maker). But beyond that, there's not much logic behind most teachings in Christianity (or other religions for that matter). I was raised with church teachings, i just can't figure out how people can believe such random stuff based on blind faith. This goes especially for now, when much of what was said in the bible has been factually refuted by real tangible science. It's gotten to a desperation point sadly.
> 
> I do like the bible. I find it a fabulous and very entertaining form of literature. But having grown up and being taught the real facts in life, it has become clear that it should belong in the fiction section. I like it in the same way that i like Lord of the Rings (boy will i get a lot of hate for that comment). Occasionally some words of wisdom are spread out in it as well though (though there's a lot of things i find offensive in it as well).


A lot of church teachings are illogical. I know people that used to go to church and had in the past asked the priest or vicar or whoever was in charge an honest question, to be answered with a condescending pat followed with "if you have faith..." or "when you're older, you'll understand..." or "it's not for us to know", when in reality the priest either doesn't actually know the answer or doesn't want to answer in case you realise most of the time he's talking rubbish.

It doesn't surprise me that some people turn agnostic or atheist purely because of the stupidity of most churches, and the people that run them, not because of the Bible itself. In response to your comment about learning facts of life, it does actually include facts that were way ahead of its time.


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## Hebon (Jul 11, 2011)

HateBreed said:
			
		

> God made man to worship him but gave him the option to do so. But to not worship means eternal damnation thus rendering free will useless.



It's a little more than just "worship God or go to Hell." The concept of Sin and Death are important aspects in that.

In the Bible, from my interpretation mind you, before Sin and evil entered the world, everything was perfect. God literally walked within His creation and talked to Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve loved God so much, and were in so much awe, that they worshiped Him freely.

Then Lucifer (Satan's real name) entered the garden and brought sin with him and passed it to humanity through Eve when she ate the apple, then to Adam when he did as well.

So now we have this Sin (which by they way, is a term that meant disobedience to God and separation from Him, which is what Adam and Eve did when they ate the apple) in the world. According to God, all who sin must die. Well, He loves us, since he created us, and gave us a bunch of rules (in the Old testament) that we needed to follow in order to keep from "dying." But since we are human and imperfect, we can never truly fulfill them all, thus they needed to follow them constantly

But God had a grand plan to  fulfill these rules once and for all. That's where Jesus came in. He was perfect, and thus, the perfect sacrifice. He took all the sin in the world away, and all you need to do is genuinely *believe* that He is real, and that he loves you to accept this free gift.

That's it in a nutshell.

Also, some people might ask why God had a tree that He didn't want them to eat from in the Garden. Why even put one in? The answer comes down to Free Will. How can you choose if there is no choice. So basically, the tree was there in order for them to have true Free Will and *choose* not to eat from it, and *choose* to obey Him.


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## Hebon (Jul 11, 2011)

N.M. ZERO B.C. said:
			
		

> TOP 10 SIGNS YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN...
> 
> 10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by
> other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
> ...



This is a hurtful misrepresentation of what I believe. I'd need to go into detail in order to explain every single point, but most of these are *major* misunderstandings. 

If you ask me to explain, I'll gladly try.


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## Warrior522 (Jul 11, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

> Warrior522 said:
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How do you form a relationship with an invisible, inaudible, intangible, scentless, soundless being?


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## granville (Jul 11, 2011)

Warrior522 said:
			
		

> How do you form a relationship with an invisible, inaudible, intangible, scentless, soundless being?


Quoted for truth, this is where i drew the line. Trust me, being irrational at the time, i tried to talk to a nonexistent entity for over 16 years until i realized that there wasn't really anything there. I actually feel ashamed i even tried to do it for so long, i always knew deep down that there wasn't anything there but kept trying to believe for years. Until i eventually accepted that it was meaningless and such beliefs were wasting precious amounts of my life and narrowing my ability to accept true facts. It basically strikes me as a kid and their imaginary friend (i had one as a kid myself, apart from god). Perhaps one brought on by boredom, loneliness, or an attempt at comfort to help them grasp things they don't understand or fear (like death and what lies beyond it). The problem is that in this case, the imaginary friend is unfortunately often used to justify violent actions and in many cases attempt to exert domination over other people.

Heard a quote once that really summed it up-
"When one person has an imaginary friend, it's insanity. But when a large group of people have an imaginary friend, it's called religion."

While i wouldn't say it's the mentality of all Christians by any stretch, what N.M. ZERO B.C. is a sad reality among many of the ones i've personally met and the environment i grew up in. I grew up in a church filled with people who thought they were good and loving people, but many of whom were actually very cruel and intolerable to anyone who didn't share their views 100%. And as i grew older, having been finally taken out of such an environment by my mother and taught actual facts, it opened my eyes. I wanted no part of such a mentality anymore. It's clear that there are good Christians, many of them in fact that truly do try to follow their word. But it still strikes me as irrational, and i have a deep seated dislike of the ones who abuse their beliefs to hurt others. This is often the case with religion, using it as a justification for war.


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## Zetta_x (Jul 11, 2011)

granville said:
			
		

> Warrior522 said:
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Granville, everything in your quote is exactly what I would of typed (slight variations because I may have had something to drink). I grew up in a very religious family...
...
...


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## VashTS (Jul 11, 2011)

best part of christian religion, if i don't believe and it turns out to be real and the rapture starts at some point i can repent and i am saved. woo hoo. gotta love loop holes. 

don't worry about religion stay logical and live happily. or lose logic become religious and be happy. either way you win if you do what you want. 

my son is not going to be taught about religion. if he chooses to stray that way he can learn everything on his own, i will take no part.


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## Uncle FEFL (Jul 11, 2011)

Since I entered this topic so late, I'll answer the original question.

No, it's not. My freshman year of high school, I was introduced to the Internet, to atheists, agnostics, fundamentalists, non-theists, polytheists, you name it. People much smarter than me, much dumber, kind, cruel, whatever. The point is I experienced a plethora of differing opinions.

What I found was, as a Christian, a factory of sin-like behavior. However, both being not deep into religion, and being scientifically literate (Neil deGrasse Tyson throws this phrase around from time to time, but I think everyone has varying degrees of "scientific literacy" being human), I found myself at first rejecting these people (atheist/agnostic types), and getting very angry at them. Of course, my arguments were complete and utter shit, too. Ripped apart in minutes. I couldn't win, not because I couldn't debate, but because I had no logic, nor did I have evidence. All I had was faith.

Faith doesn't get you far. People _should_ need more than that, but when it comes to life and never existing again, people are willing to give up their sanity. Hell, death makes me cringe every time I think about it (now, in fact). But I cannot give up my sanity and my logical being to believe in a God that is not present, just because it is comforting to think so. 

So, basically, I saw these peoples' arguments for what they were: logical reasons to at least understand that God probably doesn't exist. And I am thankful every day for having my eyes opened up. I think theists everywhere should be more open-minded in terms of their religion, once that happens, they'll finally understand that it truly is meaningless. And like Granville said, it's an excuse for people to do cruel things to other people.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

PyroSpark said:
			
		

> I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close  to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?



I'm a logical thinker and I'm also a Christian, those two things don't really cross eachother's paths. Logic and Religion should be kept separately - God's ways cannot be explained by simple human logic, his design cannot be described with letters or digits. There is a greater pattern going on in the world, something we cannot comperhend, just believe it.

Obviously, science unveils some mysteries, but do notice that explaining one thing creates two questions. I do believe that we'll never answer the questions like "what's the point of life" etc. - they're too subjective, too vague, and that's why "religion" was created.

The point of being religious is to believe in a supreme being - the world works according to too strict rules to be a coincidence in my opinion. It was "meant" to work as it does and left for us to keep and maintain. It's not supposed to have sense, it's supposed to be a moral framework of your life.

Take bible for example - a set of stories that are more or less sensical, mostly fiction though. However, following them does point towards what's "evil" and what's "good", and that was the idea behind creating it and editing it over and over.

Religion is not composed of "facts". That's what science is for. Religion is a set of vague theories that are open for interpretation. These are just things *you* believe in, the way *you* comperhend them. Truth to be told, *you* create your own version of "religion", whichever one you choose, since as a human being, you interpret things in a specific, one-of-a-kind way... and this is a good thing, really.


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## Zerousen (Jul 11, 2011)

Youkai said:
			
		

> Why would someone who thinks logical at all think religion would be something good to adapt to oO?
> 
> Relegion is something for stupid people who need this as an explanation why they are alive and others just need it when they have problems cuz they want something impossible to happen ...
> 
> ...



I don't think it's all that right to say that religion is for "stupid people". I mean, I'm a Buddhist, I like being a Buddhist, and to live my life through compassion and selflessness. Of course, I may be still human, but that doesn't mean I can't do something for this world we live in, right? Another thing is, Religion can give someone something to hope for, especially if they have nothing else to believe in. We may fight over our religions countless times, and I do find some religions quite silly, but to bash on what gives people motivation, faith, and/or hope is just not right.


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## Uncle FEFL (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> PyroSpark said:
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Contrarily, I think that if you are a Christian, believing in a God is quite dangerous to your logical thinking. God, under Christianity, or any religion for that matter, is entirely illogical. Does your book describe what God is? If so, why does evil exist? Why does it choose murder over literally a limitless amount of solutions?

Is God indescribable for humans? Then why do you choose the label "Christian"? If God cannot be defined in a human manner, then believing in God requires no religion or labels. It merely needs faith alone; faith in a higher power or being, whatever it may be. Benevolent or malevolent, you do not know.


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## Shinigami357 (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> I'm a logical thinker and I'm also a Christian, those two things don't really cross eachother's paths. Logic and Religion should be kept separately - God's ways cannot be explained by simple human logic, his design cannot be described with letters or digits. There is a greater pattern going on in the world, something we cannot comperhend, just believe it.
> 
> Obviously, science unveils some mysteries, but do notice that explaining one thing creates two questions. I do believe that we'll never answer the questions like "what's the point of life" etc. - they're too subjective, too vague, and that's why "religion" was created.
> 
> ...



If only this were true. I mean, it's possible - for certain individuals anyway - but to the majority, having to make up their own beliefs might not be their cup of tea.



Anyway, to make my point brief... Like I said before, you can't have logic and religion without them entangling one time or the other. One way or the other, you'd have to make a choice of either having to live with them both in some capacity [thus being constantly torn apart] or giving up one of them. Personally, I went with the first, out of personal preference: I take everything logically [unless I'm pissed, but that's natural for humans] but I believe that there is a "higher power" somewhere, whether it be God/some deity or the mere incomprehensible workings of the universe. And that works for me. Your own preference of logic/religion is up to you.


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## Endrit49 (Jul 11, 2011)

"First, we postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass.
If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.
As for souls entering hell, lets look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to hell. Since, there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to hell.
With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.
Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant.
So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose (i.e.,Hell is exothermic).
Of course, if hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, than the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over (i.e.,Hell is endothermic).
So which is it? If we accept the postulate given by Ms.Therese Banyan during my freshman year, "That it will be a cold night in hell before I go out with you," and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having a relationship with her, the second case cannot be true. Therefore, hell is exothermic."

religions are stupid


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## GreatZimkogway (Jul 11, 2011)

I'll sum this entire topic up without reading anything: Christianity, and religion, rely solely on faith, witch is believing something with no logic, no evidence, or proof.  That's what faith is.  And that's why, as an atheist(for the most part), I find it to be utterly stupid.  

Besides, if some god is really as cruel and malignant as to punish someone for following what they believe over what could *easily* and most likely be lies, then that god isn't worth worship at all.


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## Thesolcity (Jul 11, 2011)

I've learned one thing important about Christianity. It will surprise you almost every time. In my life, in everything I've done, if something wasn't working right I've always assumed it to be my fault. I'd keep working at it and working at it until I was 100% sure it wasn't my fault. I've never been 100% sure I haven't done something wrong. You can't be 100% sure in science. (Remember when we all thought the Universe was eternal and how it was "backed by science"?). You can't be 100% sure in Christianity (Vague stories, a lot of metaphorical stuff.). No one can be 100% sure in anything, period.  But I can beg the question, are we looking at Christianity the right way? Sure, taken literally the bible could possibly be "disproven" in an instant. But what if we were looking at it wrong? You can be a Christian and take science to your beliefs, Christian scientists DO exist still. Its all a matter of how you look at things, what is science law today could be thrown out the window tomorrow, because we look at it differently.


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## Lucifer666 (Jul 11, 2011)

IMO, it's healthier for a person to believe that there are greater powers, much greater than the person himself (ie. who he worships)
I think religion is awesome, and I have respect for all.


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## GreatZimkogway (Jul 11, 2011)

Darmanitan said:
			
		

> IMO, it's healthier for a person to believe that there are greater powers, much greater than the person himself (ie. who he worships)
> I think religion is awesome, and I have respect for all.



No it's not.

Of course, Religion will always be the exact same as fanboy wars.  Neither side will ever budge.


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## chris888222 (Jul 11, 2011)

I respect every religion. Although sometimes my relatives think that a particular is 'weird', I still respect their practices


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## Jamstruth (Jul 11, 2011)

It's been noticed that faith and/or religion are actually built into our brains. There is a centre in our brains which lights up when thinking or dealing with religion. So basically our religious beliefs were somehow an evolutionary step and an advantage to us somehow.

The same centre in the brain also lights up when Apple fans are dealing with new Apple products, funny that


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## GreatZimkogway (Jul 11, 2011)

Jamstruth said:
			
		

> It's been noticed that faith and/or religion are actually built into our brains. There is a centre in our brains which lights up when thinking or dealing with religion. So basically our religious beliefs were somehow an evolutionary step and an advantage to us somehow.
> 
> The same centre in the brain also lights up when Apple fans are dealing with new Apple products, funny that



I think it was actually just based on beliefs of styuff in general.  Could be wrong.


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## Arnold Schwarzen (Jul 11, 2011)

That's funny because I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?


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## Raika (Jul 11, 2011)

Logic and religion don't go together.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Arnold Schwarzenegger said:
			
		

> So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?



I'd have to say yes, but it's much much rarer. It's pretty much the same question as "can you be a Christian if raised a Muslim" or vice versa, or replace that with any 2 religions. Yes there are converts, but it seems that for most you have to be raised with it for it to make any sense.


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## Hebon (Jul 11, 2011)

I find that there's a problem asking questions on a forum, as it makes it difficult to properly discuss thoughts and ideas without one person being pushed down and ignored, while another is focused on.

Serious questions need serious answers, and the best way to get that is to ask people in real life so you can actively converse with them.

I wish we could all meet together and sit around and eat or whatever so we could all discuss this. I think it would go much more smoothly and I personally wouldn't feel as though some important information was missed or left out.


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jul 11, 2011)

PyroSpark said:
			
		

> I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close  to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?



Logic AND religion?

You seem to have missed the main appeal of 'faith' the ability to simply stop thinking and cop out on the basis that faith fixes anything.

Basically religion is for people ok with suspending logic and simply succumbing to a total crisis of fact.

Myself, I am simply too educated to give a damn what religion wants to put on paper.


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## doyama (Jul 11, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Arnold Schwarzenegger said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see why not really. MOST people who follow religion are not insane nutjobs. They are reasonable people who have working brains. Religion is a matter of faith. A logical person can simply understand that 'logic' does not apply to religion, just as logic is difficult to apply to ethical, or moral questions. There's nothing inconsistent with thinking in this manner.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Hebon said:
			
		

> Then Lucifer (Satan's real name) entered the garden and brought sin with him and passed it to humanity through Eve when she ate the apple, then to Adam when he did as well.
> 
> Well depends how far you go back, originally the Abrahamic God was El, the head of a pantheon of gods and father of all gods, and Baal (both terms could also be used as a honorific) was one of his children. When they moved over to monotheism El became the one true God and Baal became Beelzebub.
> 
> QUOTE(doyama @ Jul 11 2011, 02:09 PM) I don't see why not really. MOST people who follow religion are not insane nutjobs. They are reasonable people who have working brains. Religion is a matter of faith. A logical person can simply understand that 'logic' does not apply to religion, just as logic is difficult to apply to ethical, or moral questions. There's nothing inconsistent with thinking in this manner.



I didn't say there where any inconsistencies there, and I never said all people who follow a faith are nutjobs. I just said it seems like the vast majority can not do that sort of mental gymnastics and doublethink unless they are raised in a faith. EDIT: I did point out people can move from purely rational to being a believer, I just said it was much rarer. And most just become general Deists rather than believers in one of the specific Gods of recognised religions.


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## Hebon (Jul 11, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chris...kers_in_science

This might help to show that many great thinkers were also Christians.


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## Uncle FEFL (Jul 11, 2011)

Hebon said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chris...kers_in_science
> 
> This might help to show that many great thinkers were also Christians.


But it doesn't prove anything. In fact, as the years flew by, less and less of them were Christians. People, over time, grew more secular because more realize that religion is rubbish in terms of defining their world.

EDIT: Serious grammatical and structure issues.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> Hebon said:
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The Church also had a habit of killing heretics. Not believing in the Church would cause a person to be ostracized and threatened eternal torture.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Hebon said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chris...kers_in_science
> 
> This might help to show that many great thinkers were also Christians.



Yes, but notice how unlike the general population where you have to point out the atheists, in the sciences you have to point out the believers. Yes this might be because more people from a secular background choose to work in those fields but you've got to ask why.


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## YetoJesse (Jul 11, 2011)

ok, you know, believe what you like, but when you start seeing a [email protected] guy up in the clouds, saying he made people with adam and eve and saying that incest is bad... I'm looking the other way "face-palming" myself.. there's not much logic behind religion itself, just that you have some sort of hope after you die...
also, don't go blastin' yerself up because you want a bunch of virgions... (typo? XD)
I'll believe that which I can see and touch when I'm sober, not what some hobo says who can turn water into wine...

*Posts merged*

P.s., Adolf Hitler was a (part) jew...


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## Apex (Jul 11, 2011)

Don't you have more important things to worry about?

My opinion: Organized religion is nothing other than archaic propaganda, I used to think that if I lead a good life and didn't care about the details, most religious beliefs are the same in basic rule sets of what is acceptable behavior, and if there is some kind of god out there, they'd be forgiving enough to see that I've followed the rules and hopefully not punish me for it. 

Life is to short to spend it doing anything other than what you want to, and if you ask me religion is a chore more than anything, tells you what to do, when to do it and usually not why to do it. Don't go looking around for salvation, make it look for you.


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## Fat D (Jul 11, 2011)

I see nothing wrong with a belief in the supernatural while staying rational under a few key points:
Treat religious scripture as fallible, man-made word. It has been written by people inspired by their faith, not by any supernatural entity itself. The biblical canon has been selected by popularity, not by divine judgment. The Koran (or however you wish to transliterate it) being directly copied from the god himself on the other hand is part of the fundament of religion, so if you want to be a rational muslim you might want to be fairly liberal with the faith. That did not stop the muslim world from scientific success in its early ages, though. Probably because it did not explain enough to get into conflict with the scripture.
Do not consider divine intervention the default state. The deistic view explains why the laws of nature are as reliable as they are. It considers the supernatural power as having set up the universe at the beginning and letting it develop with a minimum of interference. Many great minds of modern Christianity subscribed to that viewpoint, and the aformentioned muslim science started to fall when their theology started to consider every single event in nature a direct result of divine will.
Do not subscribe to organized religion. Churches have their places as organizers of charity, and membership in one might pose you as a believer to those who would otherwise doubt it, but they tend to teach that faith is more important than reason. Do not blindly follow what preachers say.


Then again, those suggestions come from an agnostic atheist, so you decide what to make of it.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

<!--quoteo(post=3768040:date=Jul 11 2011, 07:42 AM:name=Shinigami357)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Shinigami357 @ Jul 11 2011, 07:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3768040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, nothing against you, but you this post just seemed to be perfect for my current argumentative mentality...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offence taken.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Logic and Religion should be kept separately - God's ways cannot be explained by simple human logic, his design cannot be described with letters or digits. There is a greater pattern going on in the world, something we cannot comperhend, just believe it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is one of the reasons religion is always the most fundamental rival of logic and science. To put it simply, you cannot have the best of both worlds without taking the burden of either. It's just not possible - one way or the other, your belief/faith <b>will</b> clash with your logic. There's no getting around that, and I think assuming that there's a way to do so is denying that humans are free to study the things they believe in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do you think that is a fact? Science explains matters of this world, while religion explains anything that is spiritual. It's really simple when you think about it.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Consider this, of all "illogical" things, religion in general is the only one that denies almost all ties to science and logic. Love is being studied, the supernatural is being studied, extraterrestrials are being studied, legends and myths get studied. Why can we not study the most important thing in the history of humanity [yes, religions is the most important thing in history; there is no denying that fact]? Because its leaders say no? Because its believers hate the idea?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm againts any form of clerical leadership, so that's not really a question to me.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously, science unveils some mysteries, but do notice that explaining one thing creates two questions. I do believe that we'll never answer the questions like "what's the point of life" etc. - they're too subjective, too vague, and that's why "religion" was created.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Some questions are questions only to the human mind. Some things just are, scientifically speaking. For example, "what is the point of life?" is the question. Biologically, life is about ensuring the existence of the future generation. Of course, that's fine for animals and plants, but humans just ask more, they want more. It's inherent in the human nature, and no fault of science whatsoever - our curiosity, our problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I choose to ask for more than just reproduction and want to leave a mark in history, even if it will be insignificant. God blessed us with the power of the mind and creativity for the reason, so I'll do my best to utilize my talents to the fullest extent.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now, religion-wise, does that also answer <b>all</b> our questions without creating further ones? Or are we asked to be content just to keep the questions to ourselves and [of course] believe that the answer is out there. That's not even an answer, that's called evading the question entirely, though no one seems to mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember that religious concepts are the creation of man, and nothing created by man is perfect.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point of being religious is to believe in a supreme being - the world works according to too strict rules to be a coincidence in my opinion. It was "meant" to work as it does and left for us to keep and maintain. It's not supposed to have sense, it's supposed to be a moral framework of your life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Too strict rules? Most of the rules we live in are logical. [for example's sake] Eat something poisonous, do something stupid = die | breath oxygen, eat, drink = live. That's not strict, it's just life. Now if you were talking about the rules that govern the universe... How do we say they are "too strict to be coincidence" when we have yet to understand them all? That's presumptive judgment, IMHO. As far as I've researched, the universe works under rules that allow it to either maintain or change itself [depends which theories you subscribe to, really] while allowing it to work.

Wait, you're telling me that our moral framework shouldn't make sense? I think above all things that religion gives us, morality is the most logical of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you disagree with my theory that a clockwork mechanism of planets cannot be created via tripping over 8 rocks? Because that's what you're trying to pull off here, and I just don't buy it. As far as the moral framework, of course it has to make sense. I never said it shouldn't and don't really have any clue where you got that from.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take bible for example - a set of stories that are more or less sensical, mostly fiction though. However, following them does point towards what's "evil" and what's "good", and that was the idea behind creating it and editing it over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ouch. As something of an aspiring writer, I take affront at this sentiment. Fiction is a form of escapism, not a guide for anyone. It's true, some works of fiction do indeed give out small facets of good or bad [thus protagonists and antagonists/conflict etc] but fiction is just that - fiction.

Please do not tell me that the bible is fiction. It does not fly - with me or with the people who [continually deny that they] supposedly created it. It's almost unfair to have something so reverently "holy" be called fiction - it's almost insulting. Again, you can't have things both ways, without taking the burden of either. Either the bible is God's words/our moral compass or it's fiction, and nothing other than fiction.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I have a little saying, "If God wanted us to have Bibles, it'd rain Bibles every Sunday. No such occourence was observed as of yet". Qu-ran, the Bible, the Tora and other "Holy Books" are works of man and if someone fails to understand that, then he's very, very gullible. Are they words of God though? Yes, they are. They were written under the inluence of the "Godly Inspiration". Some stories within them are factual, however they're all spiced up and filled with metaphores to enhance the moralistic aspect of the whole.

If you're an aspiring writer, you should've known that throughout the history of mankind, many works of fiction had a moralistic aspect and their point was to build a moral backbone of the reader. How about John Milton's works? Ever heard of him?

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Religion is not composed of "facts". That's what science is for. Religion is a set of vague theories that are open for interpretation. These are just things *you* believe in, the way *you* comperhend them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I've sincerely never heard any religious leader/preacher/believer saying that their beliefs are open to personal interpretations. Maybe you're luckier than I in that respect, but for the most part, religion is a set of beliefs you either believe in or don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't listen to preachers for the most part, but I have met some that share my views.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Truth to be told, *you* create your own version of "religion", whichever one you choose, since as a human being, you interpret things in a specific, one-of-a-kind way... and this is a good thing, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If only this were true. I mean, it's possible - for certain individuals anyway - but to the majority, having to make up their own beliefs might not be their cup of tea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's just that the majority are gullible sheep that'll believe just about anything.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, to make my point brief... Like I said before, you can't have logic and religion without them entangling one time or the other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I've been doing that successfuly with no tangling involved for years. You CAN.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One way or the other, you'd have to make a choice of either having to live with them both in some capacity [thus being constantly torn apart] or giving up one of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Logic is not a religion. It does not have to replace my Christianity. I have no idea why the concept is so alien for you.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I went with the first, out of personal preference: I take everything logically [unless I'm pissed, but that's natural for humans] but I believe that there is a "higher power" somewhere, whether it be God/some deity or the mere incomprehensible workings of the universe. And that works for me. Your own preference of logic/religion is up to you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So you're a logical thinker that believes in a higher diety in the universe? Well then you're a Spiritually Logical Thinker, and welcome to the crowd. The difference between you and me is pure nomenclature - you call that "thing" a "Diety" while I call it "Jahve".


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## ManFranceGermany (Jul 11, 2011)

PyroSpark said:
			
		

> I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close  to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?



Lets face it, Religions are for morons. Thats the case for all Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). At least the Buddhists and Hindus doesn't have this arrogance you can find in all Abrahamic religions.

Did you ever read the Quran? Its not any better!
And now let the hate of the muslims on Gbatemp begin _"no, you're not right, Islam is the best, you just had a bad translation or misinterpreted it, Islam is so peaceful and wonderful" _... yea sure... as peaceful as Christians, which made million of crusades and killed Muslims and Jews. 
And about Judaism, don't let me even begin.

The most funny part is, this strict muslims which want the sharia law(islamic law), are not any worse than strict Christians and Jews.
In Israel strict Jews, don't even want to sit beside women ina bus! can u imagine that shit? they want to have seperate buses! Same things for strict Christians.
Maybe they should talk with each other and see that they want the same idiotic shit.

This three Religions say that they did so much good to the people, really, do you believe that native Americans or older cultures didn't have a working society and they were less peaceful as us today??? do this religious people really believe this???

People might say, that at time of Judaism, later Christianity and even more later Islam, religious rules (don't kill other people, don't steal...yea, seems that we had to learn this...lol) were good. This might be true, i mean lets face it, rapes were normal, women had even less rights than what this religions finally gave them. But today they are a relict!

Ask a strict Christian, Jew, Musilm which religion is the best... do you really belive he will say, "_mine is good, but the other is just fine too_"?

For making a long story short, all religions are unlogic.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

ManFranceGermany said:
			
		

> And about Judaism, don't let me even begin.



I'd have to say that at least they don't threaten you with eternal torture for not believing. It's at that point they (Christianity, Islam, and their offshoots) lose the argument as far as I'm concerned. It's like a bad parent or bully or something, "do what I say or I'll fucking break your legs...". And also correct me if I'm wrong but don't Jews also believe any good person will end up in heaven whether they believe or not?


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

The only restrictive faiths that are "related" (Judaism, Chrisitanity, Islam etc) as far as Heaven is concerned are Islam and a Christian group called Jehova's Witnesses. Islam states that only those who praise Allah will enter heaven (as far as I remember) and Jehova's Witnesses believe that heaven has a limited ammount of "space" in it and will accept only the first 100.000 pure souls.

Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided, however if he or she acted morally throughout his/her life, an "exception" is made. It's not middle-ages anymore, we're not going on cursades under crazy popes.


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## Pyrmon (Jul 11, 2011)

ManFranceGermany said:
			
		

> PyroSpark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm Muslim and I don't really appreciate you calling me a moron. Especially since you don't have the ground to say so.
And just what do you have against my religion? You say it's violent and barbaric, yet you don't say why. 
Why do you associate all Muslims with hate? Especially the ones on the temp? I don't think any Muslim temper has said or done anything to deserve that.
Extremists do not represent the majority in any religion. You cannot hold their actions against the moderate majority.
The values of my religion still hold up in the modern world. I get much wisdom from it.
Again, you talk about the extremists as if they represent all of us. You can't do that. My religion is good, but the others are just fine too. I don't think they are right, but they are fine nonetheless.
You didn't provide any real arguments to say that all religions are illogic.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's the penalty for [censored]? Who gets punished? Enough said. I know you say you only follow the Koran and take no notice of the Hadiths, but you are in the minority on that point. You can't take your minority interpretation and say that is what Islam is the same way we can't take the bomb happy lunatics and do the same with there interpretations.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided, however if he or she acted morally throughout his/her life, an "exception" is made.


What evidence do you have to back up this claim? That is certainly not the message I got from reading the Bible. Your version of Christianity does not make up Christianity as a whole. You call the Bible fictional and apparently disagree with what the majority of Christians think. In what way do you consider yourself to be a Christian?


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## Jamstruth (Jul 11, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> ManFranceGermany said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


TO be fair he never once mentioned Islamic Extremists. He was just saying that you would assume he was making that generalisation and say to him how peaceful Islam really is (and you have...proving his point) He talked about extremists in all religious sects. Christian ones are annoying as hell, Jewish ones are annoying as hell it just so happens that your ones seem to be the most violent to western society for some reason. He mentioned the violence of the Crusades (Christianity is peaceful my arse. Those were based on "Convert or die and be tortured in hell for your sin!" Yay for religion!!) 

He was making broad sweeping statements about all religions so yeah...


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

Let us begin the unmaking.

What I am about to show you is a contradiction of sorts. Not within the Bible itself. Those are far too easily brushed away. Rather, I wish to show a contradiction between the Bible's portrayal of life and people, and the reality of the world.

Remember first and foremost, the Holy Bible's tenant for salvation. "Believe in Jesus Christ, redeem your sins and have *faith* that He died for your sins." (Paraphrasing.)

Now, look at the world around you. Human beings are curious and intelligent. We do the greatest good in this world by providing new technology to feed those who may not have eaten otherwise. The production of technology, however, requires the practice of something which is entirely, totally opposite to faith. I speak of science.

How is science opposite to faith? Science is the practice of never, ever taking anything for granted. Trial and error, innumerable tests, all in the name of accepting one's human finality and getting just a little bit closer to the truth each and every time. Technology is just applied science, and it has been our greatest tool for benevolence. Even when it was used for evil, in the name of war, it was used by those who had faith in their country, faith in the system, and faith that they would win. Technology and science ask for no faith; only a curious mind and the desire to make the world a better place.

Now, let's get back to the Bible. Remember what I said about faith being the ultimate tenet? I wasn't kidding. You can do all the evil in your life that you please, so long as you confess your sins just before you die. That's beside the point, however...

The real point here is that, according to the Bible, your faith determines whether or not you will burn eternally, or live in stoic paradise with the creator of all things. Here is where the paradox lies.

God is supposed to be three things. Omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. The second one is called into question here.

How can a God who loves all things create a curious advancement-by-applied-science race, and then make the sole difference between them burning for all eternity and living in utter paradise...whether or not they keep faith about one thing that happened/will happen (depends on what age it is in humanity) with no constant evidence and only fear to back it up?

Allow me to sum this up briefly for you. If God were omnibenevolent, he would have no reason to set up a condition in which those who take nothing for granted burn in hell forever.

I call this paradox, "The Curiosity Paradox".

A side note to all those raised Christian. I was once like you. Fighting for the church because they're your friends, your family, because it's what you were raised to believe, even if you don't want to admit that to yourself.

Let me tell you; I was raised to be a minister. I was given literary training, reasoning ability, and skill in the debate arts. I was trained night and day to spread the "good word". I didn't hate it at the time. I thought I was going to do the world a favor, and stop my friends who were not Christian from burning for all eternity. As time went on, though, I became brighter and brighter. It wasn't long before the ravening curiosity that comes with a thirst for knowledge would get to me. I had to see the world without pretenses. I had to cease assuming that the Bible was correct...and when I did, I felt a great relief pass through me. I began to question my assumptions until they were no more.

After all of that, I can confidently say that no amount of family upbringing is worth the mental slavery, the utter sheepishness that comes with submitting your mind and soul to an unthinking, unquestioning faith. Don't let yourself continue to rationalize when you have yet to take off the lenses and see the world for yourself.

And with love, I will say...don't be afraid.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

<!--quoteo(post=3768668:date=Jul 11 2011, 05:58 PM:name=cwstjdenobs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwstjdenobs @ Jul 11 2011, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3768668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3768618:date=Jul 11 2011, 04:39 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ Jul 11 2011, 04:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3768618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Christianity does not condemn people of different or no faith at all, it just assumes that said person was misguided,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Nope it says you can't be an Atheist, or of another faith, it's all apparently so obvious and you are lying by saying you don't believe so being wicked.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's a false doctrine.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. IF YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR 
THEN YOU DO NOT GO TO HELL 

2. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST 
AND YOU HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT 
THEN YOU ARE JUDGED BY THE NATURAL LAW (OR BY THE MOSAIC LAW 
IF YOU ARE A JEW.) THE ROYAL LAW ("You shall love your neighbor 
as yourself") FULFILLS ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF BOTH THE MOSAIC 
LAW AND THE NATURAL LAW (according to Galatians 5:14). 

The Natural Law is approximated in the Ten Commandments 
(see Exodus 20:1-17) together with The Great 
Commandment (see Matthew 22:35-40). The Royal Law, 
so named by James, is "You shall love your neighbor 
as yourself" (see Galatians 5:14, James 2:8). 
The Mosaic Law is all the Law of the Old Testament. 

3. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST 
AND YOU HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND UNDERSTAND IT 
(but you reject it nevertheless) 
THEN YOU GO TO HELL 

. . . unless Jesus decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge, 
is allowed to do.
~http://www.internetchurchofchrist.org/pearl-doallnonchristiansgotohell.html<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->B. Can non-Christians be saved?
<b>The "no" position: non-Christians cannot be saved</b>
Many people believe the Bible says clearly and unequivocally that salvation is only possible for those people who believe in Christ as Savior and Son of God. To the objection that this seems "mean-spirited" of God, they point out that all men stand condemned because of their own sin, and God does not "owe" salvation to anyone. He has graciously offered atonement for sin to those who put their faith in Christ.

John 3:16-18 is probably the strongest statement in the Bible that salvation is possible only by faith in Christ as the Son of God:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (NIV, John 3:16-18)

The apostle Paul stated a similar position, though not worded quite as strongly:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV, Romans 3:21-25)

There are many other Bible verses, especially in John, that imply that faith in Christ is a condition of salvation (John 5:24, John 6:28-29, John 6:47, John 9:35, John 11:25-26, John 12:36, John 20:31, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:26).

<b>The "yes" position: non-Christians can be saved</b>
Critics of the "no" position point out that the New Testament books were originally written and used as statements of faith and reference material within the early Christian communities. This is especially true of the Letters of Paul, which were written to specific churches he had founded, usually to address some specific issue of doctrine or conduct that had arisen. Within these churches, those who didn't believe in Christ would be those who had heard and understood the Gospel but willfully rejected it. Thus, the condemnation of non-believers may be intended for those people rather than for ones who had not heard the Gospel. There is some support for this position even in John. In the story of Jesus healing a blind man (John 9:1-41), Jesus condemns the Pharisees not for their lack of faith (symbolized by blindness), but because they have heard the truth and still refuse to believe (they claim they can see). In that context he says,

Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see. (NLT, John 9:39-41)

Paul, too, writes that those who have not heard the Gospel (the pagan Gentiles) may attain the equivalent, in their own hearts, by other means:

God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. (NLT, Romans 2:12-16)

Another criticism of the "no" position is that the idea of faith in Christ as a condition of salvation is not strongly present in the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), if at all. The overall thrust of the synoptic gospels is that salvation is available to all those who make love for God and love for their fellow men the guiding forces in their lives. This is best summed up by Jesus' response to the expert in religious law:

One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: "Teacher, what must I do to receive eternal life?" Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" The man answered, " 'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " "Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!" (NLT, Luke 10:25-28)

A similar thought is expressed in 1 John:

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (NIV, 1 John 4:7-12)

There are a number of other verses in the Bible that suggest that God will judge different people by different standards, and salvation is more generally available than just to those with faith in Christ as Son of God (Matthew 5:43-46, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 12:47-48, Luke 18:26-27, John 1:29-30, John 5:25-29, John 12:28-32, Romans 14:10-12, 1 Timothy 4:10, Revelation 20:11-15).

In the past, some Christian churches taught that all non-Christians were condemned, and even Christians of other denominations were likely condemned. However, world travel and instant communication have brought people of different religions closer together and have forced a reevaluation of old beliefs that other religions were invalid, obsolete, or even the work of the devil. If we take John 3:16-18 as the sole criterion for salvation, then all non-Christians, children who die young, and the mentally disabled will be automatically condemned to hell. Many people find that inconsistent with the New Testament's portrayal of God as a loving Father. In addition, it seems inconsistent with the Bible's portrayal of God as all-powerful to believe He is somehow unable to save anyone He finds worthy, regardless of religious affiliation.

Dutch theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560 - 1609) believed it is God's desire to save all people if they do not reject the salvation offered by Christ. God has bestowed sufficient grace on even those who have not heard the Gospel for them to implicitly accept that salvation. Those who know the Gospel have greater advantages and responsibilities; their salvation is conditional on repentance and faith in Christ.

Today, the majority of Christian churches adhere to some variation of the Arminian view of salvation.
~http://www.twopaths.com/faq_salvation.htm#VIIIB<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As in many other cases, this dilema is open for interpretation of the reader. It all really goes down to your personal belief. You rather choose to belive in the God of Fear or the God of Love, you follow the Old Testament closely or the New one.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What evidence do you have to back up this claim? That is certainly not the message I got from reading the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's your interpretation then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your version of Christianity does not make up Christianity as a whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it doesn't, we are all individuals and we percieve rules differently. Some follow them strictly, even when they're stupid, others choose to use them as guidelines, not original truths. I'm just the latter.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You call the Bible fictional and apparently disagree with what the majority of Christians think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who is that majority? Who is the minority? I don't percieve religion that way. Your belief is your buisness, it's not a matter for statistics, it's a matter of the heart and mind. The Bible needs to be revised - it cannot be conscidered a concrete source of information and law - it's circa 2000 years old. Obviously it went obselete, and obviously it needs revisions. Times change, and so should religion. Lack of evolution means regression.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In what way do you consider yourself to be a Christian?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 
I simply believe in Jesus Christ the messiah, his father and the Holy Spirit and I do my best not to break obvious moral rules. That's the extent, more or less.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Way to prove yourself wrong man.



			
				QUOTE said:
			
		

> 3. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
> AND YOU HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND UNDERSTAND IT
> (but you reject it nevertheless)
> THEN YOU GO TO HELL



But I'd say I didn't reject it so much as couldn't (notice, not a choice) believe. And almost every Atheist and people of none Christian faiths falls into this category.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Way to prove yourself wrong man.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At the end of the day, Jesus shall be the judge of your life. Simply being a decent human being will suffice, I didn't prove myself wrong in the slightest. Unless you *reject moral life*, you're in the clear.

Need I remind you about the story of Jesus's crucifiction? One of the co-victims did not know the gospel, nor was he a Christian, however in his final days he chose to reject his past life and admitted his sins, and that sufficed for his entry to heaven.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> . . . unless Jesus decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge,
> is allowed to do.
> 
> Sorry I wasn't quote mining, I just left that out as all it's saying is that Jesus can choose to go against those rules in special cases.
> ...



So sorry, are you saying the only way you can't believe is by not understanding the Bible? Because that's what you bolding that part seems to imply. I know for a fact I know the Bible and it's history better than the vast majority of Christians out there.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

What I meant by that is that if you find yourself unable to "read between the lines" of the Bible and draw conclusions, which are usually simple rules of morality which you're probably already following then you shall be judged via means of the Natural Law. I didn't mean to call you an idiot, obviously. It's just that this source text is worded crudely and I didn't want to edit it.

I much prefere the longer refference link, it shows the duality of interpretation more clearly, but it's a bit tl:dr.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Ahh, so it's pretty much the CS Lewis argument then that if you're a good person, no matter who you think you are worshipping or even if you don't think you are at all you are basically accepting Christ? Or are you saying that "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." is also a false doctrine?


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

I like arguing with you, you're really nit-picky. Seeing that Jesus shall judge you, you're still entering God's domain "by him", aren't you?

And no, it's not the CS Lewis argument. That's retarded thinking. It's the "be a genuienly good person and you'll go to heaven, petty human nomenclature like "Christian", "Muslim" or "Atheist" means jack in the eyes of God" argument.


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## ManFranceGermany (Jul 11, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> ManFranceGermany said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ahh..I was waiting for you, funny that no Jew or Christian had  a problem with it.
I said it about all three religions and if you couldn't see this, or you are a strict religious person, than you're really a moron.


Also, I did not say that you are barbaric, but all of this religions are. If you have such complexes and you call yourself a speaker of islam, than yes, you got a problem. Don't tell me its good what terrorists do. no matter if in name of god or not, they are terrorists.

look here, my mum is Jew, my dad Christian, my finance is Muslim and my best friend Buddhist...and we all care a shit about religions or skin colors. thats something, you will never understand, but at least it works here in my part of Europe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





and now go on to hate and praise.
you're religion is the same shit as mine. sorry bro. get over it. There are much more important things in life, how you could make the planet a better palce to live, but for sure not to pray 5 times the day.

And if you really believe that Islam is better than Christianity or Judaism...well, let me just tell you, youre wrong, noone is better, all the same crap.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> ahh..I was waiting for you, funny that no Jew or Christian had a problem with it.
> They chose to ignore it, including me. You picked the worst starting line ever, calling someone an idiot because his beliefs are not 100% like yours is retarded and only a close-minded moron could come up with such a concept.
> 
> 
> ...


 No.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Again sorry, not meant to be argumentative. Just trying to get a more rounded handle on your views.

And I've got to admit that's a new interpretation for me to consider. For some reason I've only being able to see that as meaning "Only through following Christ...", especially with the "I am the way, the truth".


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Again sorry, not meant to be argumentative. Just trying to get a more rounded handle on your views.
> 
> And I've got to admit that's a new interpretation for me to consider. For some reason I've only being able to see that as meaning "Only through following Christ...", especially with the "I am the way, the truth".



Hehe, it's actually NICE to have a pleasant discussion with someone who does think about it. Don't get me wrong, I am *NOT* trying to convert you or anyone else. I'm just trying to describe how "my" belief looks like.

It's like I said - Bible is not "definitive", it's made by us, humans, and should be revised here and there. The wording of some stories is a bit crude and maybe even "too" open for interpretation, but all in all, it's not that bad.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 11, 2011)

you cant say religion is bad , how else would we get government funding to wage holy wars... religion is the sole reason for most every war in history. haha and no i have never met a person not born into a religion that ended up choosing to be a religious follower.  
i was never forced to beleive that there was a god and im thankful for that, as i was able to grow my mind naturally as i got older.  the universe is far too large and complex for me to think that god only put us here...with all of the trillions of galaxy's with billions of stars that have billions of planets orbiting them its hard to think that we are the only intelligent life forms... with those statistics it is also hard to think that there would be a god that can read all of the thoughts of everything...there is just too many. instead of cementing your feet to the gound and staring at your toes should be thinking of what you are doing and not what you think god wants you to do...

unfortunately you cant have a relatively sane conversation with any religious person as the second you say somthing that contradicts their reliion they put up a jesus wall or allah wall and block out anything logical you might say...


main point is... if you are going to retort to this..... dont bother if you were a person indoctrinated into your religion as it wasnt your choice but your parents, and you can thank them for that hahahahahahhaha have fun closed minded fools


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

I recall more than one passage about blasphemy being an unforgivable sin.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> you cant say religion is bad , how else would we get government funding to wage holy wars... religion is the sole reason for most every war in history.
> 
> I call bull. Religion has being used as excuses for wars, the same old very human factors of greed or even need for resources are behind any I can think of.
> 
> ...



The same can be said for most Atheists in these sort of discussions. 

And cough cough, Foxi4, Pyrmon, and lots of others I'm probably missing, are they putting up a Jesus wall or Allah Wall? They aren't trying to convert you, and not agreeing with you and thus converting over to your view doesn't mean they instantly dismiss any point that doesn't agree with them.


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## nugundam0079 (Jul 11, 2011)

Why in the world would you ask this sorta thing on an internet board? this is something that YOU yourself has to really look into all you're doing here is starting an argument.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't find anything logical in attacking one's hardened beliefs just because you want to act like some turtleneck-wearing intellectual douche.

Seriously, we just had that stupid ass furry issue, we don't need another dumb thread where people get riled up over nothing.


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## rt141 (Jul 11, 2011)

You did know there is no logic behind religion right? Its called faith and faith doesnt need a justificaction you simply know its true because you do and thats it, for people like me this is a headache because I can think and theres simply to many contradictions in christianity or any other religion, religion was made up by man, maybe God wasnt, but since all religious stuff depends on man theres a margin of error pretty big in everything that you can be told, if you dont really believe then leave it like that, if you try to believe to please someone or because you are scared you are just being hypocryite. And if theres something I have learned from religion is that -insert goldy figure name here- is not going to do anything for you no matter how hard you believe, because if -insert goldy figure name here- was to do actually start doing stuff for us, we could become to dependant and lazy.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

Nobody's getting rilled up yet, can't see a problem. The discussion is on a civilized level...whaaat!?! CONVICT TEH FURRIEZ! CRUCIFY ZEM! AND THEN SHOOT JUST TO MAKE TEH SUREZ!


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## ManFranceGermany (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh, so sweet.
now the orthodox and the muslims help each other.

_*you know what, Im happy! *_really!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 If this brings you and the muslim guy more near and you forget your differences, thats just great.

it was kinda cute, how you did it.

my job is done!

if the reality would be like this, that our religions would help each other like you helped him, than the world would be at least a bit a better place.
Because the reality in most arab countries and east-europe looks different, but who knows, maybe you and your muslim friend, can work on a  communication and this will make all our world better.


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## GeekyGuy (Jul 11, 2011)

It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that every hot-topic thread like this will eventually get closed. Just show respect for one another in your posts, and you can easily get your points across without having to watch another thread run off the rails.

Thanks


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## Demonstryde (Jul 11, 2011)

the truth is that there is no god there is no heaven there is no hell there is no afterlife... when you die you close your eyes and you cease to exist as a consciousness... you stop thinking and never think again.... when i was a kid about 10 i had that revelation and it scared the shit out of me, but it didnt make me want to believe in god just because i was scared of my human nature, it just is. if you were born into religion you would never think that because it would scare your puny mind and make you shit a religious brick...there should be a statement before each members post wether they were born into it or they chose it. cause im guessing every person who is for religion and is in religion did not choose for themselves. point made , 


WINNING


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## dickfour (Jul 11, 2011)

One thing I've noticed is that the media and a lot of liberal elite class are in effect robbing people of religious faith. When I see law suits over prayer or a nativity scene I think to my self there's something there that these people are deathly afraid of. So they beat down religion every chance they get. What's happened is that a lot of people move in herds and if religion isn't cool or is presented as hateful or backward they tend to go a long with what the media says. I don't think these individuals even know what's happening to them and these elitists are basically getting away with the theft of faith.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> oh, so sweet.
> now the orthodox and the muslims help each other.
> 
> you know what, Im happy! really! wub.gif If this brings you and the muslim guy more near and you forget your differences, thats just great.
> ...



That's a side effect of every Ideology. Religion works like cement, it binds its believers together. Among every group of people there are sheep, and said sheep can be guided. It is more efficient to guide millions than it is to guide a few, that's why Religion was used as an instrument of war many times. It's not "Religion's Fault" though, the people in charge who came up with said schemes were guilty of said atrocities. No ammount of education will change the fact that there are "Smarter" and "Less Smart" people among us, that's why contemporarily people are deep-down *afraid* of the concept of a Religious congregation, especially if said religion has any excerpts that could be conscidered "agressive", even if out of context.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 11, 2011)

wow really gonna take out my whole point because i said winning at the end of it ... friggin lame well then i will post it again without the winning part.


there is no god there is no hell there is no afterlife. when you die you cease to be a counciousness. you close your eyes and never think again....ya know what.....have fun with your gay thread....remove this post too your religous nazi....fuckin lame


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## Hakoda (Jul 11, 2011)

Depravo said:
			
		

> Logic and religion are mutually exclusive. Logic encourages us to question whilst religion demands we blindly accept.


This. 

The two cannot go together so if you must be religious you'd have to be a psuedo-Christian, accepting only what you yourself cannot prove. It's like trying to bring science into a Catholic church, its just looked down upon. However when you do fuse the two, you get scientology.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

dickfour said:
			
		

> One thing I've noticed is that the media and a lot of liberal elite class are in effect robbing people of religious faith. When I see law suits over prayer or a nativity scene I think to my self there's something there that these people are deathly afraid of. So they beat down religion every chance they get. What's happened is that a lot of people move in herds and if religion isn't cool or is presented as hateful or backward they tend to go a long with what the media says. I don't think these individuals even know what's happening to them and these elitists are basically getting away with the theft of faith.


By that logic all of the atheist billboards that have been vandalized and taken down due to complaints are just a result of religious people being deathly afraid of atheism. How can you claim to be persecuted by a society that is overwhelmingly Christian?


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

Hakoda said:
			
		

> Depravo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By the way, Scientology is a *filthy sect* that deprives its members off their possessions and secludes them from their families, it's not a religion, it's a rip-off for the sheep. Don't even pull it out in a discussion about religion, there's a HUGE difference between a sect and a religion. It might've been "good" in its early stages, but now that you have to "pay to spiritually advance", it's hard not to see where it went wrong.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> By the way, Scientology is a *filthy sect* that deprives its members off their possessions and secludes them from their families, it's not a religion, it's a rip-off for the sheep. Don't even pull it out in a discussion about religion, there's a HUGE difference between a sect and a religion. It might've been "good" in its early stages, but now that you have to "pay to spiritually advance", it's hard not to see where it went wrong.


Scientology is a religion as much as Christianity is a religion. Where is the huge difference between them?


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh, not much. Except that reaching higher Operator Thethan Levels requires sufficient monetary deposits (rounds up to 500.000$ to reach Level 5 from what I remember), leaving the sect is incredibly difficult (other operatives go out of their way to stop you from doing so, sometimes even borderline legal stuff) and contact with your non-scientologist relatives is slowly cut short by higher-level Operatives. I've read *alot* about scientology since I was interested in their teachings, but scraping off the sugarcoat revealed a turd underneath it. As General Akbhar would say - "IT'S A TRAP!!!".

In short, religion is free and it does not limit who you're meeting and who you're not meeting with, a sect controls your life.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Scientology is a religion as much as Christianity is a religion. Where is the huge difference between them?



The only difference between a religion and a cult is size. If it's big enough it's a religion. Once it's being big enough it always is no matter how far it falls.

EDIT: Cough cough, tithes Foxi4?


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

It is my honest belief that any "Cult" that manages YOUR posessions and decides whether or not it's okay to speak with YOUR friends and relatives is not worthy of the "Religion" status, hence I use the word "Sect" instead. I guess it's a matter of approach, but as you can see, I'm "not a big fan" of scientology.

As far as tithes are concerned, they are A) non-mandatory, B) not necessary to spiritually ascend.

In scientology, your OTL is really a big deal. Higher Thethan Levels allow you more privilages, so everyone wants to get higher ones. Unfortunatelly, you have to pay to achieve them. Hence, I call it rip-off


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

...You know, it's really not cool to be ignored. Particularly after I wrote all that about faith being contradictory to human essence and progress. Yeah, I wish people would actually read my stuff.

Sheesh.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> Oh, not much. Except that reaching higher Operator Thethan Levels requires sufficient monetary deposits (rounds up to 500.000$ to reach Level 5 from what I remember), leaving the sect is incredibly difficult (other operatives go out of their way to stop you from doing so, sometimes even borderline legal stuff) and contact with your non-scientologist relatives is slowly cut short by higher-level Operatives. I've read *alot* about scientology since I was interested in their teachings, but scraping off the sugarcoat revealed a turd underneath it. As General Akbhar would say - "IT'S A TRAP!!!".
> 
> In short, religion is free and it does not limit who you're meeting and who you're not meeting with, a sect controls your life.


Churches also take a great deal of money from people and even to this day try to get laws passed to control other people's lives. No one is forcing scientologists to pay the money to further themselves spiritually.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

Not many are. But a sect is just a subdivision within a religion, cult would be a better fitting word, but for semantics sake that would cover any religion with a small number of followings. And sect only has the negative connotations in Christian societies.

I think the best description of Scientology would be a "Mainly bad SciFi writers confidence trick".


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

No idea where you're livin', but we don't really have any laws of the sort. Any religious institution pays the same taxes, regardless of which religion it represents. I can't see how they're trying to "control" my life either, and they surely never "took money away from me" or "limited the ammount of phone calls I can do", nor did any religion "tap my phone". Such instances are taking place in Scientology Institutes though.

If you're trying to pull out the "Christianity's naughty too" argument, that's fair and I agree, the church made mistakes in the past and it still does. Yes, I'm anti-clerical.

If you're trying to say that "Scientology is okay" though, I disagree and that's about it.



			
				QUOTE said:
			
		

> I think the best description of Scientology would be a "Mainly bad SciFi writers confidence trick".
> 
> L. Ron Hubbard...
> 
> ...


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## TGBoy (Jul 11, 2011)

Hail Kratos!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ is a good read for the O.P. Not saying it is a must but a "good read"


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## impizkit (Jul 11, 2011)

Blaze163 said:
			
		

> Hell, I've been technically dead for a few minutes and I have a hazy recollection of a voice (in case you're wondering, a female voice I didn't recognise, very soft sounding, telling me my time wasn't up yet and that I still had a task to attend to, and I do recall the faint smell of flowers), but even I refuse to place my faith in something that cannot be proven to exist. Even if there IS an afterlife, I'll deal with it when I get there. Simple fact is that I don't know for sure that there is anything else waiting for me at the end of it all. I DO know that I'm alive now. I'd rather worry about something real than something that could just be a load of old bollocks.



You experienced this and still dont believe? That is something. I have had several experiences where I should have died, no explanation why I didn't accept it wasn't my time and God wanted me to live. If I wasn't a strong believer before(I was) then my close encounters strengthened my belief. And I dont believe if religion or follow a religion. I believe that the bible is telling truths, or stories to explain the truth. There is a God, as far as Im concerned.

This will get long, so dont read if you dont want to hear a testimony(I strongly suggest you do):

The day before my Junior Prom, I was on my way to work. This was after school and I never really slept alot in High School. I started to doze off and before I knew it, I was on a corner that is suggested to be taken at 35 MPH, but can easily be taken at 60 with no trouble. This particular day, my cruise control was set at 58 (digital speedo) and as I approached the turn  I nodded off and fell off the side of the road. I quickly woke in time to work around the corner. I was almost in the clear until my back passenger tire fell off the rim and the car started to flip. That was the last thing I remember. The ditch I ended in was about 75-100 feet away from the road when I landed. It landed on the roof. A farmer happened to see the accident and new someone was dead. He claimed that my car flipped 8 times only hitting the ground 3 times. I was woken up by the paramedics who had to cut me out of my seat belt. The mere fact that I survived is not the difficult part to understand. The fact that I flipped as much as reported, all windows were broken including my moonroof and only a small scratch on my elbow, twisted ankle as it got caught between the clutch and break and a minor concussion are not even the most convincing. That all could have happened to anyone. Where I truly believe God kept me alive is the fact that I had a bible in my trunk that had my name engraved on it and a bumper sticker on my back window that said Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit was a local band in my area, but I had it because I believe in the Holy Spirit. As I mentioned, all windows were broken, the bumper sticker was found by my dad the next day some yards away from the final destination of the car, completely intact. The glass was all still stuck to the back, but shattered in the exact shape of the bumper sticker. Also, it rained that night and the following day and the trunk lid was badly mangled leaving the trunk open to the elements in the tow yard. When my dad went to get my personal belongings out of the car, the bible was not only dry in the trunk, but very dusty. There were even puddles surrounding the bible. Granted, I wasn't treating my bible very well, but there was a reason it was in my trunk. To show me that there is a reason I was still alive.

All that said, Blaze, you still had more convincing reasons to believe in a higher power than this one incident I had and still dont believe. That is your choice, but what you have said shows that you are here for a reason and God has a plan for you. 

Sorry if this got preachy, that was not my intent. Only to show the shock I felt with Blazes story and still disbelief.

Please feel free to PM me if anyone has questions or wants to chat.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> No idea where you're livin', but we don't really have any laws of the sort. Any religious institution pays the same taxes, regardless of which religion it represents. I can't see how they're trying to "control" my life either, and they surely never "took money away from me" or "limited the ammount of phone calls I can do", nor did any religion "tap my phone". Such instances are taking place in Scientology Institutes though.
> 
> If you're trying to pull out the "Christianity's naughty too" argument, that's fair and I agree, the church made mistakes in the past and it still does. Yes, I'm anti-clerical.
> 
> If you're trying to say that "Scientology is okay" though, I disagree and that's about it.


I'm not saying Scientology is ok, I'm just saying that it is a religion too.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 11, 2011)

impizkit, I think the problem is we can almost explain exactly why some people see strange things when close to death, and can fake the same results without having to almost/actually kill someone just by messing with targeted magnets on the head.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

I guess I just have higher standards for the "Religion" basket. I'll say that it's a "belief" and anyone is free to believe it, however I have a negative opinion about it. How does that sound?


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## nugundam0079 (Jul 11, 2011)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> I don't find anything logical in attacking one's hardened beliefs just because you want to act like some turtleneck-wearing intellectual douche.
> 
> Seriously, we just had that stupid ass furry issue, we don't need another dumb thread where people get riled up over nothing.




I agree


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## nugundam0079 (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> Nobody's getting rilled up yet, can't see a problem. The discussion is on a civilized level...whaaat!?! CONVICT TEH FURRIEZ! CRUCIFY ZEM! AND THEN SHOOT JUST TO MAKE TEH SUREZ!




Speak for yourself I was hanging with Maria back in the day.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

Wolvenreign said:
			
		

> ...You know, it's really not cool to be ignored. Particularly after I wrote all that about faith being contradictory to human essence and progress. Yeah, I wish people would actually read my stuff.
> 
> Sheesh.


I read your post and I'm sure other people did too. I just didn't have any response to it.


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## impizkit (Jul 11, 2011)

I wont ignore you Wolvenreign, it almost sounds like you are saying anyone that believes cannot be intelligent. That is pure ignorance. Everyone is able to have their own views and beliefs, but do not try to say that everyone that believes in God or religion is not of the same intellect as those that do not believe. You think that no scientists believe in God. Science and God can both exist. If not, explain why? We could go round and round all day. I just dont want you saying we believers are not as smart as those of you that dont.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

impizkit said:
			
		

> I wont ignore you Wolvenreign, it almost sounds like you are saying anyone that believes cannot be intelligent. That is pure ignorance. Everyone is able to have their own views and beliefs, but do not try to say that everyone that believes in God or religion is not of the same intellect as those that do not believe. You think that no scientists believe in God. Science and God can both exist. If not, explain why? We could go round and round all day. I just dont want you saying we believers are not as smart as those of you that dont.



You did not read it properly.

What I said was that science is the antithesis of faith. A scientist happens to be one that practices science, and any intelligent person had become intelligent through scientific reasoning of their environment. Intelligence is, by definition, the ability to sort what is from what is not.

It is entirely possible, however, for someone intelligent and/or scientific to...shall we say...overlook aspects of reality which are already covered or predefined by their faith. There are some parts of their worldview which they they can place a foundation on, and never do they dare to undermine that foundation. However, if the foundation is false, what good is it? It does not help to determine the truth. Of course, that's IF the foundation is false.

Now, what is the only way to determine whether or not the foundation is false? Well, the only tools we have are examination, experimentation, and a generally scientific, methodical approach. Once again, this assumes you are willing to do so.

What I'm getting at here is that you can't assume something and still call it scientific. Scientists and generally intelligent people sacrifice curiosity and science when they do so. So are you less intelligent when you have faith? Maybe, I don't have the raw answer to that. What you are is less scientific, because you willingly blind a small, but important part of yourself.

It is also true, however, that you entirely missed the whole point of that writing. My intent there was to prove a vital contradiction between the writings of the bible and the reality of the human race.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

Wolvenreign said:
			
		

> impizkit said:
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The problem in your line of logic is that you want to check this "foundation" of human life via scientific means, and you yourself stated that faith is the antithesis of science. Much like matter that collides with anti-matter results in nothingness, science colliding with religion on this scale also returns no results.

Science reffers to the rules of the world that are entirely explainable, factual events. Religion is for abstract ideas, like the existence of the soul or the afterlife. You can't "extract" a soul but you can't prove it's not there either, you can't scientifically prove me wrong saying there is no heaven, seeing that there is an infinite ammount of parallel universes, you can't prove that conciousness ends the moment you die - nobody died and returned to tell the tale yet, except Jesus and Lazarus, I suppose XP.

This is why Science should only be applied to the natural world while Religion should be applied to the spiritual plane of existence.

Sorry for "not replying" earlier, I was sort of occupied with different discussions.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

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You assume that religion should be applied to that which we cannot yet explain.

Assumption is true evil.

I do not understand why we must simply make things up about that which we do not know. Why does it have to be so hard to just say, "We don't know. We can't know right now, but a day may come in the future when we have the capacity to understand these things." That is the very definition of science, and it is perfectly applicable to the unknown.

Indeed, why shouldn't we say, "We don't know."? It is the most perfectly honest answer that we have as limited, finite beings. We don't need some fantastical placeholder or some bizarre set of rules. I, for one, find it entertaining to stare into the void, to consider the possibilities of the future. The world is entirely too complex for assumption.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

It should not be applied to things we cannot YET explain, it's to be applied to things that we will NEVER explain. There's a difference.

Each "we don't know yet" is followed by theories, and those theories are like beliefs. They're not proven right or wrong yet, their followers just choose to find them more probable than others until further notice.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> It should not be applied to things we cannot YET explain, it's to be applied to things that we will NEVER explain. There's a difference.
> 
> Each "we don't know yet" is followed by theories, and those theories are like beliefs. They're not proven right or wrong yet, their followers just choose to find them more probable than others until further notice.



Again, you assume that we will never explain them. Theories have a major difference from beliefs in that they are scientifically breakable. If someone were to show evidence against that theory that entirely mutes it, the theory itself is mute. Faith is unshakable by evidence, and entirely unreasoning. That is the very essence of it's concept.

The point is, to have a truly scientific foundation, you must say in your heart of hearts, "I don't know if we'll ever explain the things I don't know about, but because I'm human, I have the potential to try. I have the ability to experiment with reality, observe the results, and see how close I can come.".

Science is beautiful in it's emptiness, yet whole in it's honesty.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2011)

Heh, the point I'm clumsily trying to get across to you is that you cannot prove or disprove some theories because it's humanly impossible to do so, not now and not ever. You can't "die" and "come back a few days later" retaining memories of the process, you can't "find" a spirit because it's not in the mortal plane, you can't prove that there is no God, much like religious people can't prove that there is one. Those are "abstract" theories, they're uncompatible with experimenting.


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## Magmorph (Jul 11, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> Heh, the point I'm clumsily trying to get across to you is that you cannot prove or disprove some theories because it's humanly impossible to do so, not now and not ever. You can't "die" and "come back a few days later" retaining memories of the process, you can't "find" a spirit because it's not in the mortal plane, you can't prove that there is no God, much like religious people can't prove that there is one. Those are "abstract" theories, they're uncompatible with experimenting.


A theory that is not refutable is not a theory at all. A scientific theory has to be refutable or it is nothing more than an idea.


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## lex luthor (Jul 11, 2011)

zzz.....zzzz......


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Foxi4 said:
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Indeed, and one must ask the necessity of an idea which imaginarily explains something we do not know yet. (Again, there is no actual difference between what we do not know and what we "cannot" know, because we do not know whether or not we cannot know it.")

The most perfectly honest thing we can do as human beings is to say, "We don't know.". That is the intellectual, scientific thing to do. Those that fail to do so sacrifice their human curiosity in the name of faith.


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## mcp2 (Jul 11, 2011)

Wolvenreign said:
			
		

> Indeed, and one must ask the necessity of an idea which imaginarily explains something we do not know yet. (Again, there is no actual difference between what we do not know and what we "cannot" know, because we do not know whether or not we cannot know it.")
> 
> The most perfectly honest thing we can do as human beings is to say, "We don't know.". That is the intellectual, scientific thing to do. Those that fail to do so sacrifice their human curiosity in the name of faith.



Strong tripe. You've wrapped your warped ideas in the most convoluted way possible. Have you ever read any religious books? Religious people don't know everything either, they do say "We don't know". Of course everything isn't known. To go as far as to say it's the "intellectualy scientific thing to do" and not give a reason is even worse than these religious arguments. Oh and the Venus Project is utter shit, stopped reading at "Earth has plentiful resources" and it doesn't even take into account the other uses of money apart from it being a system of barter such as a method of controlling demand and supply via various means (detached from it's bartering value).


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## P-CHYLD (Jul 11, 2011)

Christian= Christ Jesus
Christian= Christmas= Christ Jesus
The word Christ is the key.
Without Christ there is nothing.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

mcp2 said:
			
		

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Let us take this apart, bit by bit, shall we?

"You've wrapped your warped ideas in the most convoluted way possible."

Convoluted? The basic worldview of saying, "I don't know, but maybe one day I will know", is the simplest way of looking at the world I can think of, perhaps outside of "Big Rock".

"Have you ever read any religious books?"

The Bible. All of it. I was raised to be a priest, but I guess you didn't read my first post.

"Religious people don't know everything either, they do say 'We don't know'."

You missed the entire point of it. If a person is religious, then they are looking at the basis of their worldview with a huge, huge, "I know". Their worldview is predetermined by their religion, and more importantly, their faith. If a Christian has faith in the Bible, for example, then they are definitely not saying "I don't know" about the beginning the Earth. It is predetermined for them by Genesis 1:1. The idea is to say, "I don't know" about even the basis of life, the things which have not yet been reached by science. Not just some things to concede to science, all of it. If you fail to, you are less of a scientist for it, at the core level, no less.

"To go as far as to say it's the "intellectualy scientific thing to do" and not give a reason is even worse than these religious arguments."

You didn't read any of it, did you? Any of my previous posts? I gave a very distinct reason, several, in fact.

"Oh and the Venus Project is utter shit, stopped reading at "Earth has plentiful resources" and it doesn't even take into account the other uses of money apart from it being a system of barter such as a method of controlling demand and supply via various means (detached from it's bartering value)."

1. This is off-topic.

2. You didn't read? Nothing to discuss, aside from the fact that you totally missed that all barter would be eliminated thanks to the advent of cybernetic production technology. But I won't bore you with such things; your attention span clearly does not allow you to read it.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 11, 2011)

P-CHYLD said:
			
		

> Christian= Christ Jesus
> Christian= Christmas= Christ Jesus
> The word Christ is the key.
> Withhout Christ there is nothing.



Meaningless, though worthy of a Christian bumper sticker.


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## P-CHYLD (Jul 11, 2011)

Wolvenreign said:
			
		

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Only to the blind eye, which you have maybe two.


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Jul 11, 2011)

P-CHYLD said:
			
		

> Christmas= Christ Jesus



What would we have without Christ?

Saturnalia.


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## The Catboy (Jul 11, 2011)

P-CHYLD said:
			
		

> Christian= Christ Jesus
> Christian= Christmas= Christ Jesus
> The word Christ is the key.
> Without Christ there is nothing.


Actually Christmas wasn't a Christen holiday. And in fact Jesus has nothing to do with Christmas.


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## Zetta_x (Jul 11, 2011)

P-CHYLD said:
			
		

> Christian= Christ Jesus
> Christian= Christmas= Christ Jesus
> The word Christ is the key.
> Without Christ there is nothing.



Apparently people who don't spell Christian with the phrase 'Christ' in the word for another language are all nothing?

Especially considering the originality of the idea of Christian didn't have 'Christ' in the name, the only thing you are showing is that all the above are man made ideas.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 12, 2011)

P-CHYLD said:
			
		

> Wolvenreign said:
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....You tried to use semantics and language to prove that christ is somehow essential. 

Oh, and not to mention that you apparently haven't been reading any of this thread, or else you would have known that I was discussing faith as blindness, even if it's only partial.


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## Magmorph (Jul 12, 2011)

Christmas is a pagan holiday but I don't understand how that even relates to anything.


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## The Catboy (Jul 12, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Christmas is a pagan holiday but I don't understand how that even relates to anything.


I guess he's trying to say that because "Christ" happens to be those things it's some how makes them more important or something...honestly I have no idea what that guys is getting at.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 12, 2011)

Why can we never have nice things.


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## Zetta_x (Jul 12, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Why can we never have nice things.



If we lived in a world where everything was nice, we would never learn our weaknesses


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## Thesolcity (Jul 12, 2011)

Zetta_x said:
			
		

> cwstjdenobs said:
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If we lived in a world where everything was nice, wouldn't we not have weaknesses?
I think it'd be nice not to have weaknesses.


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## Uncle FEFL (Jul 12, 2011)

Wolvenreign said:
			
		

> ...You know, it's really not cool to be ignored. Particularly after I wrote all that about faith being contradictory to human essence and progress. Yeah, I wish people would actually read my stuff.
> 
> Sheesh.
> lol nice. Tell me where it is and I'll read it.
> ...


So are all other lives meaningless? People that die as babies or toddlers, are they just wastes of space? I don't understand how you think you have a greater reason to be alive over another person, whoever it may be.

So...throughout the entire accident you say, "any one could survive it," but what really made you believe is the fact that you had a Bible in your trunk? What the fuck?


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## Pyrmon (Jul 12, 2011)

Wolvenreign said:
			
		

> Magmorph said:
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What is wrong with admitting you don't know something but thinking that a certain theory makes sense? And thus believing it's the one. And thus having faith in it?


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 12, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> Wolvenreign said:
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A few pages back, man. Just keep looking until you see a big one.


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## Zerousen (Jul 12, 2011)

Wolvenreign said:
			
		

> ...You know, it's really not cool to be ignored. Particularly after I wrote all that about faith being contradictory to human essence and progress. Yeah, I wish people would actually read my stuff.
> 
> Sheesh.


I myself was ignored as well, but seeing that everyone here is having a deep conversation, I don't see why not. I myself have read your post, and have also actually copy+pasta'd it into a text document for future arguments and/or conversation. I actually find your posts quite interesting myself.


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## GreatZimkogway (Jul 12, 2011)

I'll just toss this out there for people:

I am the second coming of Christ.  Because of faith, you have to believe me, or burn in hell.  I have no proof, nor reason to be that, I just am.  

Do you a believe me?  If not, then I just proved that you following Christianity as pointless as well, because you don't have faith that I am the second coming of Christ.  Why would you believe someone from over 2000 years ago who spread Christianity around?  In a time where they didn't even know the world is a sphere?  You can't really say "faith", because you don't have the "faith" do believe me.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2011)

There are certain signs that will preceed the Second Comming. Not only that, you should probably be a bit more modest if you want to impersonate the Christ. Sorry lad/lady, but as of now, you're full of "it".


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 12, 2011)

Hikaru said:
			
		

> Wolvenreign said:
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Why thank you, my dear. I am glad to have my arguments redistributed.


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 12, 2011)

A Gay Little Catboy said:
			
		

> P-CHYLD said:
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That's massively flawed.
For one thing, Jesus isn't even coming back to Earth.


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## DrOctapu (Jul 12, 2011)

No? The logical thing to do is to be religiously unaffiliated or strongly atheist. 
And if you're worried about being judged, click this.


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## Ericthegreat (Jul 12, 2011)

Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.

Please.


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## Zarcon (Jul 12, 2011)

Can you be logical and believe in a given religion?
I don't think you can. There are contradictions everywhere and the fact that everything written down was done by the hands of man leads all information on the matter unreliable.

Can you be logical and believe in the possibility of a higher power?
I think that's entirely possible.
Logically speaking, until absolutely proven otherwise a possibility is still a possibility.
It's just as much a logical fallacy to dismiss the idea of a higher being just because it can't be proven with any current means.

Believing that there isn't a higher being of some sort with no proof is also blind faith.

Humans are blessed with curious minds. Don't close off an entire branch of possibilities just because it doesn't make sense to you.


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## GreatZimkogway (Jul 12, 2011)

Ericthegreat said:
			
		

> Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.
> 
> Please.



I used to go to church every sunday.  Sorry, no, Church does NOT make you believe.  Only really proves that listening to them is kind of foolish.

@Proto You don't know that.  So many people think Jesus' second coming will mark the apocalypse.  And with the world the state it is now.....how do you know I'm NOT the second coming?


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## kthnxshwn (Jul 12, 2011)

I think it's funny that this thread exists on a forum full of people who are deep into manga and anime and probably under 20.


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## P-CHYLD (Jul 12, 2011)

Zarcon said:
			
		

> Humans are blessed with curious minds. Don't close off an entire branch of possibilities just because it doesn't make sense to you.


Really good post.
Check out this link
http://www.divinerevelations.info/


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## Costello (Jul 12, 2011)

kthnxshwn said:
			
		

> I think it's funny that this thread exists on a forum full of people who are deep into manga and anime and probably under 20.


I don't think a lot of people in that thread are under 20. You are making invalid assumptions, you probably didn't even read the thread, there are some posts that make a lot of sense.
(#34th time I say it) the average age on the forum is 23.something


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## FAST6191 (Jul 12, 2011)

<!--quoteo(post=3767982:date=Jul 11 2011, 05:36 AM:name=VashTS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VashTS @ Jul 11 2011, 05:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3767982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my son is not going to be taught about religion. if he chooses to stray that way he can learn everything on his own, i will take no part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Apologies if I misinterpreted this and you in fact meant compelled/encouraged to follow a religion or three but to know nothing of them is not something many can sit behind- religions are historically, legally and from the points of view of several of the psychology/sociology type sciences quite important.


<!--quoteo(post=3767985:date=Jul 11 2011, 05:39 AM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ Jul 11 2011, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3767985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a logical thinker and I'm also a Christian, those two things don't really cross eachother's paths. Logic and Religion should be kept separately - God's ways cannot be explained by simple human logic, his design cannot be described with letters or digits. There is a greater pattern going on in the world, something we cannot comperhend, just believe it.

Obviously, science unveils some mysteries, but do notice that explaining one thing creates two questions. I do believe that we'll never answer the questions like "what's the point of life" etc. - they're too subjective, too vague, and that's why "religion" was created.

The point of being religious is to believe in a supreme being - the world works according to too strict rules to be a coincidence in my opinion. It was "meant" to work as it does and left for us to keep and maintain. It's not supposed to have sense, it's supposed to be a moral framework of your life.

Take bible for example - a set of stories that are more or less sensical, mostly fiction though. However, following them does point towards what's "evil" and what's "good", and that was the idea behind creating it and editing it over and over.

Religion is not composed of "facts". That's what science is for. Religion is a set of vague theories that are open for interpretation. These are just things *you* believe in, the way *you* comperhend them. Truth to be told, *you* create your own version of "religion", whichever one you choose, since as a human being, you interpret things in a specific, one-of-a-kind way... and this is a good thing, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There is a concept known as "god of the gaps" which should be mentioned alongside this. I see you addressed it in part in some of the later posts but thought I should mention it.

Likewise "supreme being" might not be a great definition- at various points in time natural forces themselves have been deified alongside concepts like Buddhism.


<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Take bible for example - a set of stories that are more or less sensical, mostly fiction though. However, following them does point towards what's "evil" and what's "good", and that was the idea behind creating it and editing it over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ouch. As something of an aspiring writer, I take affront at this sentiment. Fiction is a form of escapism, not a guide for anyone. It's true, some works of fiction do indeed give out small facets of good or bad [thus protagonists and antagonists/conflict etc] but fiction is just that - fiction.

Please do not tell me that the bible is fiction. It does not fly - with me or with the people who [continually deny that they] supposedly created it. It's almost unfair to have something so reverently "holy" be called fiction - it's almost insulting. Again, you can't have things both ways, without taking the burden of either. Either the bible is God's words/our moral compass or it's fiction, and nothing other than fiction.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm.
"In days of old when knights were bold there lived two little boys. Billy took Gino's apple thus depriving Gino of his apple and his lunch. Without lunch Gino was unable to concentrate in the afternoon which impacted his day and possibly the ones after that."

One total work of fiction and several possible inferences, moral and otherwise, from it. Going further there have been authors using fiction (indeed entire books) to explore countless philosophies and modifications to existing ones.

Sticking with the bible them and related concepts the terms literalism and liberalism both in this case pertaining to methods of interpreting the bible (or I guess any other holy work). For the ultra quick version perhaps 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM[/youtube]


<!--quoteo(post=3768972:date=Jul 11 2011, 07:26 PM:name=impizkit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(impizkit @ Jul 11 2011, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3768972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3767146:date=Jul 10 2011, 01:53 PM:name=Blaze163)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Blaze163 @ Jul 10 2011, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3767146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hell, I've been technically dead for a few minutes and I have a hazy recollection of a voice (in case you're wondering, a female voice I didn't recognise, very soft sounding, telling me my time wasn't up yet and that I still had a task to attend to, and I do recall the faint smell of flowers), but even I refuse to place my faith in something that cannot be proven to exist. Even if there IS an afterlife, I'll deal with it when I get there. Simple fact is that I don't know for sure that there is anything else waiting for me at the end of it all. I DO know that I'm alive now. I'd rather worry about something real than something that could just be a load of old bollocks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You experienced this and still dont believe? That is something. I have had several experiences where I should have died, no explanation why I didn't accept it wasn't my time and God wanted me to live. If I wasn't a strong believer before(I was) then my close encounters strengthened my belief. And I dont believe if religion or follow a religion. I believe that the bible is telling truths, or stories to explain the truth. There is a God, as far as Im concerned.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

DMT - it is wonderful stuff and produced by a dying brain.

<!--quoteo(post=3769036:date=Jul 11 2011, 08:12 PM:name=Wolvenreign)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wolvenreign @ Jul 11 2011, 08:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3769036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=3769010:date=Jul 11 2011, 07:52 PM:name=impizkit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(impizkit @ Jul 11 2011, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3769010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wont ignore you Wolvenreign, it almost sounds like you are saying anyone that believes cannot be intelligent. That is pure ignorance. Everyone is able to have their own views and beliefs, but do not try to say that everyone that believes in God or religion is not of the same intellect as those that do not believe. You think that no scientists believe in God. Science and God can both exist. If not, explain why? We could go round and round all day. I just dont want you saying we believers are not as smart as those of you that dont.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You did not read it properly.

What I said was that science is the antithesis of faith. A scientist happens to be one that practices science, and any intelligent person had become intelligent through scientific reasoning of their environment. Intelligence is, by definition, the ability to sort what is from what is not.

It is entirely possible, however, for someone intelligent and/or scientific to...shall we say...overlook aspects of reality which are already covered or predefined by their faith. There are some parts of their worldview which they they can place a foundation on, and never do they dare to undermine that foundation. However, if the foundation is false, what good is it? It does not help to determine the truth. Of course, that's IF the foundation is false.

Now, what is the only way to determine whether or not the foundation is false? Well, the only tools we have are examination, experimentation, and a generally scientific, methodical approach. Once again, this assumes you are willing to do so.

What I'm getting at here is that you can't assume something and still call it scientific. Scientists and generally intelligent people sacrifice curiosity and science when they do so. So are you less intelligent when you have faith? Maybe, I don't have the raw answer to that. What you are is less scientific, because you willingly blind a small, but important part of yourself.

It is also true, however, that you entirely missed the whole point of that writing. My intent there was to prove a vital contradiction between the writings of the bible and the reality of the human race.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How much stock I place in the following statement I will leave open to debate but "perhaps instead it is a vindication of the scientific method- a proper application of it can be pulled by anybody as long as they have the grounding of what came before it in place".

<!--quoteo(post=3769071:date=Jul 11 2011, 08:36 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ Jul 11 2011, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3769071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Science reffers to the rules of the world that are entirely explainable, factual events. Religion is for abstract ideas, like the existence of the soul or the afterlife. You can't "extract" a soul but you can't prove it's not there either, you can't scientifically prove me wrong saying there is no heaven, seeing that there is an infinite ammount of parallel universes, you can't prove that conciousness ends the moment you die - nobody died and returned to tell the tale yet, except Jesus and Lazarus, I suppose XP.

This is why Science should only be applied to the natural world while Religion should be applied to the spiritual plane of existence.

Sorry for "not replying" earlier, I was sort of occupied with different discussions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No abstract ideas in science? I would argue until such time as we reach a unified theory of physics (and enough data to run it) science is nothing but abstract ideas.
Entropy- energy distribution over a substance is random but scaled up enough it can be plugged into things to make free energy and the foundation chemistry.
Radiation- probably of decay (although decay can be induced natural decay which most are concerned with is totally random) scaled up enough means a predictable amount of radiation for a given time period.
Most of quantum physics
Materials science- plastics, metals, ceramics all have concepts entirely down to chance (polymer length- see of the free radical polymerisation, dislocation theory for metals, Griffith's crack theory or better some of the industrial ceramics concepts) but scaled up they allow us to build things that work.
Large fields of mathematics have at least initially been entirely abstract and others are modified to this day to remove the limitations of abstraction (although not all that recent the history of imaginary and complex numbers are a great example).
Psychology- all brains are unique but structures, chemicals and concepts means a good guess can be made and to what will happen, why something happened and such.
I could go on but I have hopefully made my point.

<!--quoteo(post=3769139:date=Jul 11 2011, 09:09 PM:name=Foxi4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Foxi4 @ Jul 11 2011, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=3769139"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should not be applied to things we cannot YET explain, it's to be applied to things that we will NEVER explain. There's a difference.

Each "we don't know yet" is followed by theories, and those theories are like beliefs. They're not proven right or wrong yet, their followers just choose to find them more probable than others until further notice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Despite my misgivings in assuming that there are unexplainable things I see this a minor iteration on the initial postulation- "it's to be applied to things that we will NEVER explain" is not all that different to things we can not presently explain as things can surely quite happily move from the unexplainable group to the explainable group as time drags on.


I guess I am now ending the post and that video earlier put me in the mood for some more George Carlin so I will

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo[/youtube]


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 12, 2011)

shinkukage09 said:
			
		

> @Proto You don't know that.  So many people think Jesus' second coming will mark the apocalypse.  And with the world the state it is now.....how do you know I'm NOT the second coming?


(Yes I do.)

He exchanged his perfect human existence to counteract the one Adam lost. Once he's given it away, he can't take it back again without invalidating that. Trust me, he's not coming back as a human.


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## The Catboy (Jul 12, 2011)

Ericthegreat said:
			
		

> Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.
> 
> Please.


Going to Church doesn't make a believer nor does it make someone of that religion.
I used to go to Church when I was a kid and honestly I would have to say it didn't quite make a believer out of me.


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Jul 12, 2011)

A Gay Little Catboy said:
			
		

> Ericthegreat said:
> 
> 
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No, not everybody who walks into a church will be "filled by the spirit" but some will. 
I think Ericthegreat wants more people to have that opportunity.


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## spotanjo3 (Jul 12, 2011)

I hate to tell you but Catholic Church do not follow bible and ten commandments at all. 

Anyway, for an example about ten commandments for idols:

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/romanc...mmandments.html

Scroll down to compare. They do not follow the bible at all. I was Catholic until I leave them and I follow the bible from now on only and not the churches. Many Catholic priests , nuns, pope and bishops are false prophets and hypocrites . A wolf in the sheep. Scary!


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 12, 2011)

Without checking the link, RockmanForte does bring up a good point.

Even the Pope's mitre is derived (i.e. has design elements) from Dagon; a Philistine deity which as I recall was half-fish.


(I'm not intending to offend any Catholics here, of course)


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## spotanjo3 (Jul 12, 2011)

EDIT: @ProtoKun7, thank you. 

I dont mean to offend any Catholics here for I was Catholic too until I found the truth in the bible more than churches can admitted because they dont bother to discussed deeply about the bible more than you think but I hope those Catholics here can read it and think twice about it. I also added this:

Catholic worship on Sundays, Muslim worship on Fridays, and Jewish worship on Saturdays. Those didnt existed in the bible. WARNING: Those are just man-made rules according to Matthew 12:9-14 as proof.


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## xist (Jul 12, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> There are certain signs that will preceed the Second Comming. Not only that, you should probably be a bit more modest if you want to impersonate the Christ. Sorry lad/lady, but as of now, you're full of "it".



One could easily argue that all the signs preceding the Second Coming have happened. Aside from the chap himself popping up what else do you feel hasn't happened out of those prophesied precursors?


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## Uncle FEFL (Jul 12, 2011)

Vulpes Abnocto said:
			
		

> A Gay Little Catboy said:
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Well, that's a cruel thing for God to do.


@Wolvenreign: I read it, and I agree, pretty much (as I said it in a somewhat meaner way than you did). I think you're a little too optimistic on people and science (people use science for wrongdoing too).


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Jul 12, 2011)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> Well, that's a cruel thing for God to do.



You could easily say that many aspects of our world are cruel. 
but the door of the church isn't a portal of plenary indulgence. (most of the time)
Not every person who walks through it will be automatically converted.
but all who enter have the _opportunity_ to accept that grace. 

It's a matter of free will.

(Heh, listen to me. I sound like I never left the Fold)


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 12, 2011)

Ericthegreat said:
			
		

> Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) *Miracles do happen.*
> 
> Please.
> 
> ...



Or else.


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## Pyrmon (Jul 12, 2011)

RockmanForte said:
			
		

> EDIT: @ProtoKun7, thank you.
> 
> I dont mean to offend any Catholics here for I was Catholic too until I found the truth in the bible more than churches can admitted because they dont bother to discussed deeply about the bible more than you think but I hope those Catholics here can read it and think twice about it. I also added this:
> 
> ...


No, I'm pretty sure accepting a religion is a matter of free will.


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## xist (Jul 13, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Please let me know of a single one that hasn't being proven to at best be explainable by natural means or at worst a massive con.
> 
> And no, the ones that have no proof of ever happening at all don't count.



I'd be both surprised and mildly pleased to see a Headline that read - "Jean Paul II's Beautification Miracle - A MASSIVE CON!" although somehow i don't think it'd happen. It seems for religion most of us just don't want to fight over common sense issues, as there's no talking around the people who have the belief option. We just ignore it and get on with them.


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## spotanjo3 (Jul 13, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> RockmanForte said:
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That's not what I mean... 

Nowhere does the bible say that Christian meetings were to be held on Sunday or any other particular day of the week. Why do many professed Christians observe Sunday as a holy day? THe custom of worshiping on Sunday arose after the Bible was completed and a variety of beliefs and traditions not based on the Bible had begun to appear.

Did God later reestablish a weekly day for communal worship? Absolutely not. Why not ? The entire pattern for true worship is laid out in detail in the bible. No other inspired writings have been added to the Holy Scriptures. You know apostle Paul ? He was inspired to write: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyound what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8. See ?

Refreshing worship that pleases God... Although the religious leaders of Jesus' day scrupulously observed a weekly holy day, their worship was not acceptable to God because their hearts were wicked. They loved money and look down on common, humble people. Yeah... They desired prominence, they were corrupt.. a corrupt, and they were deeply involved in the political struggles of their day. Proof ? (Matthew 23:6, 7, 29-33; Luke 16:14; John 11:46-48) They claimed to represent God. Yet they turned the Sabbath, which God had intended to be a source of refreshment, into an oppressive system of man-made rules as I said before. Matthew 12:9-14. Did you read this bible, didn't you ? 

Clearly, observing a weekly holy day is not in itself the key to worship that pleases God. What is need ? Jesus gave this appealing invitation: "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you." Here it is (Matthew 11:28) Worship that is truly based on Jesus' teaching is indeed refreshing. It is free of hypocrisy.. a hypocrisy and burdensome rituals.

Credit was given to someone else. 

Hope it helps.


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## Pyrmon (Jul 13, 2011)

RockmanForte said:
			
		

> Pyrmon said:
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Sure. But Muslims don't follow the Bible. So why do you include them? Especially since Friday isn't about prayer and worship as it is about community.


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## spotanjo3 (Jul 13, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> RockmanForte said:
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Well, you are right. Muslims do not believe in the Bible.... HOWEVER... Correction: To believe in something entails having faith and trust in it, and it is plenty to say that no Muslim puts any faith or trust in the Bible. In essence, Muslims do not believe in the Bible. *There are misconceptions out there that Muslims believe in parts of the Bible*, and that would mean the Muslims would have to assume that one part of the Bible or the other is true - simply because it agrees with what the Quran says. On the contrary we are taught in the Quran not to assume and our faith can never be based upon assumption. The revelations that once were the Torah and the Gospel, were time-specific and tribe-specific revelations and therefore it was not necessary for them to be preserved.  

Credit was given to someone else.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.


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## boondoklife (Jul 13, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.



Never thought of it that way, but well said!


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## Pyrmon (Jul 13, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.


It's still free-will. A person is free to believe whether he or she will or won't go to hell and if hell, heaven and God exist. And Islam doesn't punish all unbelievers with hell.


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## ThePowerOutage (Jul 13, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Pyrmon said:
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Not all Christians believe in hell.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> cwstjdenobs said:
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But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron

Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire

I can carry on if you want.


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## Pyrmon (Jul 13, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Pyrmon said:
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I don't really feel like debating this right now. But, depending on the school of thought, unbelievers under the age of 40 go to heaven. A person who isn't Muslim but believes in God in some way and leads a good life goes to heaven. And judgment is done on a case by case basis. Not all unbelievers go to hell.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

> I don't really feel like debating this right now. *But, depending on the school of thought, unbelievers under the age of 40 go to heaven.* A person who isn't Muslim but believes in God in some way and leads a good life goes to heaven. And judgment is done on a case by case basis. Not all unbelievers go to hell.



Fair enough, take your time. But if you can point towards where in the Koran that interpretation can be made I'll read up myself.

But it still seems that belief in God is a requirement of not going to hell. While Islam may spare some other believers in God hell, anyone who does not believe at all are still a dead cert. So yes it does punish all unbelievers with hell, it only doesn't punish all none believers in Islam with hell.


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## Magmorph (Jul 13, 2011)

Would God send someone who never heard of a deity to hell for not following him? If he does then he is unjust. If he doesn't then why would you tell me about him?


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## Pyrmon (Jul 13, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Would God send someone who never heard of a deity to hell for not following him? If he does then he is unjust. If he doesn't then why would you tell me about him?


I'm not sure I understand correctly the meaning of your last sentence. Could you rephrase? 
But, yes, a person who lived a good life but never heard of Islam would theoretically go to heaven.


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## bsfmtl123 (Jul 13, 2011)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> But as for those who *disbelieve*, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron
> 
> *Those who disbelieve Our revelations*, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise
> 
> ...



Free will does not mean that you won't be held accountable for your deeds.Allah has to keep a balance of treatment between those who do good works and those who don't.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

bsfmtl123 said:
			
		

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Fair enough. I get the concept of being accountable for ones deeds, but what about the plenty of good atheists out there? They still go to hell no matter how good they are. And not for deeds but thoughts. You've strengthened that point in your own response. It is still a case of believe in the one God or go to hell no matter what.


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## bsfmtl123 (Jul 13, 2011)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> but what about the plenty of good atheists out there?



It's up to them.....if they repent and accept Allah/God as their Creator they can still go to heaven.
If a person believes that there is no God then why would he expect something good in the Afterlife(in which he certainly disbelieves) and why would Allah send an atheist who does good but disbelieves,to heaven or even reward him .....it would be so unjust to those who believe but still will be send to hell as a punishment for their sins.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

bsfmtl123 said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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So why not just punish them by denying them existence instead of by treating them as evil?

But again all you are doing is agreeing with my point. EDIT, while trying to play silly word games to make it look like you're not until you are backed into a corner. You carry on proving the only reason to believe is the threat of torture if you don't.


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## bsfmtl123 (Jul 13, 2011)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> So why not just punish them by denying them existence instead of by treating them as evil?
> 
> Everyone has free will so the person will decide whether he wants a righteous life or a life which is useless.
> This would again be so injust.Let me explain you the system of Life after Death:
> ...



No, it's not like that....I completely agree with your point that Atheists will go to hell but I don't agree with your claim of it being injustice.Are you an Atheist?


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 13, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

> Most religions yes. Christianity and Islam no. The whole idea is they are trying to give you only one option. As soon as you add hell as a penalty for not believing it becomes nothing but a celestial protection racket.
> QUOTE(Magmorph @ Jul 13 2011, 08:16 AM) Would God send someone who never heard of a deity to hell for not following him? If he does then he is unjust. If he doesn't then why would you tell me about him?


Except in reality people aren't sent to eternal torture in hell. If God is loving he wouldn't subject anyone to that.
Think about it. "Hell" is the grave; the state of being dead. Jesus was dead, so he went to the grave, the same as other humans. He was perfect and did not sin at all, so for him to go to the same place as people are believed to be tortured forever would be a massive failing of justice.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

bsfmtl123 said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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Nope, hell is definitely a place of torment and whaling and the gnashing of teeth. Though not all franchises of Christianity believe it to be a separate place to heaven. For example I was taught that everyone ends up in the presence of God but to those who hate God that would be torture.

EDIT: Well the existence of hell/what it entails thing is going by the mainstream denominations interpretations. I know you can easily interpret that way, but I bet the vast majority of Christians would disagree or even (at the extremes) say you aren't a proper Christian. Same as they would with ThePowerOutage except some would be even more happy to say his religion is not really a form Christianity at all.


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## bsfmtl123 (Jul 13, 2011)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> So you actually believe anyone who doesn't believe is useless? I hope you're enjoying the useless inventions and discoveries that are making your life better, longer, healthier and happier made by those useless people.
> 
> No I didn't mean that.I meant that people who are sinners and don't believe  in God.They have no goal in their life,it pretty much becomes useless even if there is no belief in Afterlife.
> 
> ...



Does Christianity say that the ones who believe in Allah which is very similar or the same as their God will go to hell.
If yes then it will be very disappointing and devastating.
If I am an Atheist than i won't say that I lived a perfectly good life because a perfectly good life can only be judged by the principals laid by the TRUE Religion.
Nearly all Atheists are aware of Religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam.................It is better to follow one instead of following none.As far as Atheists and Polytheists are concerned I think they will go to Hell but still Allah can reward their good deeds if He wants.
For those Atheists who don't know about Islam I have no idea!


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## xist (Jul 13, 2011)

My personal feeling on all religion is that it's an abnegation of personal responsibility as you're reliant upon an "instruction manual" for guidance and living under the constant threat of divine punishment. Doing the right thing because it's the moral and responsible course of action is far better than doing it because whichever religious body you follow told you to, and those of no faith can often be far less judgemental and opinionated as they make up their own minds on difficult matters (rather than being guided down a path by a belief system).

Why is it a mandatory requirement of being a good person to believe in an afterlife? Many people live the best way they can and are generous and kind because in itself that's it's own reward....there's no need of some paradise after death.

If you need a crutch to guide you down the moral path doesn't that make you less entitled to some mythical reward?

Note - these are my views on religion...i don't judge people based upon their faith. They're entitled to their beliefs so long as i'm entitled to mine.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

I'd really have to argue that no Afterlife means no goal in life. For me it makes this life much more important. Now neither am I saying the opposite is the case either, but I'm sure we both know people who so believe that this world is evil and the next life will be so much better that they would commit suicide just to get there if it wasn't a sin. And some try to find ways around that...



			
				bsfmtl123 said:
			
		

> Very briefly can you please explain about pantheism and stoic.Sorry but I am not familiar with these.
> 
> Arrg, how to keep this simple. A naturalistic pantheist believes that the universe is God, and everything in it is part of God. But there is no supernatural element to God.
> 
> ...



No, if you where an Atheist you wouldn't say that at all. Again they have had no reasonable evidence that the Bible was right until death the same as you.

And remember, in this hypothetical situation Christianity has turned out to be the TRUE Religion.


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## Magmorph (Jul 13, 2011)

Pyrmon said:
			
		

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I'm just going to generalize it and say hell is worse than heaven. I think most people can agree on that point. You didn't answer my question though.


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## notmeanymore (Jul 13, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Pyrmon said:
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Those places which have not heard of God knew of Him at some point.
Proof: The world started with Adam & Eve alone. Those 2 spawned the generations of which we are now a part of. They believed in God, for they walked with God personally, so they taught about Him to their children, most of whom (not Cain) were also righteous, God-fearing individuals; but from that generation onward, it can be assumed there was a split in the beliefs, likely starting at Cain. The world became so evil because it forgot who God is. A world that does not fear God, is one that thinks it need not worry about the consequences of any action.

I'll stop here before I start ranting.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

TehSkull said:
			
		

> A world that does not fear God, is one that thinks it need not worry about the consequences of any action.
> 
> I'll stop here before I start ranting.



Complete and utter bull.

And your "proof" is also a complete load of bull. You cannot use scripture to prove scripture.


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## Magmorph (Jul 13, 2011)

TehSkull said:
			
		

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Assume everything you say here is correct. God would send people to hell simply because their parents didn't pass down the correct beliefs?


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## notmeanymore (Jul 13, 2011)

cwstjdenobs said:
			
		

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No truly God-loving parent would *not* share Him with their children. It's the child's decision to reject God.


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## Magmorph (Jul 13, 2011)

TehSkull said:
			
		

> No truly God-loving parent would *not* share Him with their children. It's the child's decision to reject God.


The child would have no decision if they were never told of God.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 13, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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A part of the baptising oath Christian parents tell at the church when their child is baptised is that they will do their best to raise the child according to Christian values and that the child will be informed about the gospel. A "God-Loving" parent probably should follow the oath given to God himself.

You can't reject something you don't know, by the way.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

I'm really surprised that no one has brought up there can not exist an all knowing, all powerful God and there be free will at the same time.


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## Magmorph (Jul 13, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

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I would have brought that up but God is a moving goalpost. People will start arguing that God can choose not to know things or doesn't actually know everything.


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 13, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> I'm just going to generalize it and say hell is worse than heaven. I think most people can agree on that point. You didn't answer my question though.
> Which question?
> 
> QUOTE(Magmorph @ Jul 13 2011, 05:35 PM) I would have brought that up but God is a moving goalpost. People will start arguing that God can choose not to know things or doesn't actually know everything.


Foreknowledge is like a sense, like vision.
You aren't forced to always use your eyes.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

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But by choosing (or even being able to make the choice) not to use his "eyes" he's not being all knowing, so isn't that God any more.


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## Ringo619 (Jul 13, 2011)

my whole family believes in jesus and god ,  they  are all christians but i don't i just don't see how people blindly follow something like this , there is no proof such a man  ever lived  or walked on the earth , this is what i think and i know other people have their different views i just can't still believe what they say from  the bible , that anyone could have written whats in the bible and people foolishly follow  it , i respect people following their own religion  just not my thing. so  what im trying to say is ,if you  are a thinker and who does't  believe  in anything they hear unless they can prove  , its hard to follow something like Christianity


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## spinal_cord (Jul 13, 2011)

TehSkull said:
			
		

> Those places which have not heard of God knew of Him at some point.
> Proof: The world started with Adam & Eve alone. Those 2 spawned the generations of which we are now a part of.



Then tell me why we don't all have six fingers on each had and flippers. It is a well known fact that inbreeding causes genetic abnormalities. Oh wait, that'll be those silly facts getting in the way of a good story.

I understand the fact that some people need to find help by following these religions, I also understand that many people who follow a religion had no say in it and were trained from birth to follow them. I do not understand how anyone can say that they are based on any sort of truth. Just because a really old book has something written in it does not make it true. These holy books show no 'proof' of any sort of God at all. I have yet to see a religious argument for doing something that can not be completely wiped out by logic and common sense.


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## notmeanymore (Jul 13, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> That's the point I'm trying to get across. You can't reject something you don't know. Why would you tell anyone if there was any chance of them rejecting it?
> 
> What cowardice. That's like saying you'll never ask a girl out for fear of being turned down.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if ProtoKun is right or wrong. He has a good idea, and so do I. I'll never truly understand God until I meet him myself, but my theory is that God knows all possibilities and their outcomes and watches as Man picks his course.


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## Veho (Jul 13, 2011)

spinal_cord said:
			
		

> It is a well known fact that inbreeding *causes* genetic abnormalities.


No it doesn't.


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## Magmorph (Jul 13, 2011)

TehSkull said:
			
		

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The condition of being rejected by a girl is not a one way ticket to hell. That analogy is pretty horrible.


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## notmeanymore (Jul 13, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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You're understanding it wrong.

You asked why a parent (or anyone else for that matter) would dare share their beliefs if there was any chance of rejection.
Fear of rejection is no reason to not try, and is just a cowardly excuse.


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## Magmorph (Jul 13, 2011)

TehSkull said:
			
		

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You lose nothing by them rejecting your God but they get sent to hell. How is it cowardly to not want someone to be sent to hell? I'm basing this off the assumption that if someone had never heard of God he wouldn't send them to hell.


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## spinal_cord (Jul 13, 2011)

Veho said:
			
		

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OK, I phrased that wrong, the commonness of genetic abnormalities is increased due to lack of variation in the gene pool. Any abnormalities that existed 'back then' would have resulted in most people suffering from such defects within a few generations.

If we were all descended from the the same two people, surely we would all have the same skin colour...


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## Issac (Jul 13, 2011)

Been reading through this thread... and I'll give my little input into this.

I'm agnostic, I don't believe, but I can't be sure. I'm open minded.
My girlfriend is christian. She calls herself a "modern christian" though, and thing that religion should follow the evolution...
For example, back in the days when the bible was written, they said that God created the earth and the animals and blah blah. Well, they didn't know about the big bang then, which there are scientific evidence of!
However, now that we all know that fact, we could interpret the bible in a different way. Was it God who created the big bang, which lead to earth being created, which lead to animals being created from bacteria and blah blah... did God create evolution?
He created life vs. He created evolution?

Now that is what I could accept as a healthy view on religions, over all... use it to believe, to explain the unexplainable until it actually is explained and proven.
Religion shouldn't stay the same like it was centuries ago, it should follow into the modern era and evolve!

Do you guys see what I'm thinking? Now once again, I don't believe, but if I would it would be like this. If someone tell me that God created the big bang? Sure, that maybe is what happened... I don't know, and until someone proves otherwise, I'll accept that oppinon and won't think anyone is stupid for saying so.
(Like I do think people who denies evolution, denies that earth is as old as it is, etc. are stupid).


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## BlueStar (Jul 13, 2011)

Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven?  Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?

If so, bearing in mind the tiny amount of time humans stay on earth for and the huge amount of people who seem to end up sending themselves to an eternal torment for some reason or another, it would be kindest to kill children at birth, rather than risk them not accepting God or sinning and ending up in hell (or, depending on which of the billion different views on hell and the bible you hold, being apart from God or at least barred from paradise.)

If not, what kind of God curses innocent babies to an eternity of torture?  Actually, don't answer that, the same God who murdered innocent first borns in Egypt I guess.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Jul 13, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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I think (I'm not sure) that if you purposely stop one from being exposed to god or religion that's also a one way ticket to hell.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> Do children who die before reaching an age when they can understand concepts such as accepting God go to heaven?  Do they avoid hell by default if they die before having an opportunity to sin?



Depends. For Catholics a definite yes they go to hell as they where born with the stain of the original sin of Adam.

EDIT: I believe for Muslims their infants definitely got to heaven. There seems to be three schools of thought on the others, they go to hell with their parents, go to heaven, or are stuck between heaven and hell.


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## Pyrmon (Jul 13, 2011)

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Depending on the school of thought, in Islam, a human does not reach full spiritual maturity before age 40. People who die before that are granted a free ticket to Low Heaven and, depending on how they lived their lives, might go to High Heaven.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Jul 13, 2011)

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Now _that's_ unfair.


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## spinal_cord (Jul 13, 2011)

The way I see it, almost everyone in the world is going to hell. The amount of religions that banish you to hell for either not believing or believing but not accepting or just plain not knowing, means that all of those people including everyone who follows every other religion is doomed to hell. Therefore hell must be infinitely larger than heaven. Again, I see no logical reason to follow a religion.


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## PyroSpark (Jul 13, 2011)

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Lots of things about religion seems unfair. ;_;


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## notmeanymore (Jul 13, 2011)

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It's cowardly to *not* tell someone about God. You asked "Why would you tell anyone if there was any chance of them rejecting it?"

Stop messing with my head.


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## bsfmtl123 (Jul 13, 2011)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> I believe for Muslims their infants definitely got to heaven. There seems to be three schools of thought on the others, they go to hell with their parents, go to heaven, or are stuck between heaven and hell.
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> Any infant whether he is a Christian,a Jew or A Muslim will directly go to Paradise.
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This seems odd.Is this from any Hadith?


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

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Apparently so. I'm trying to find a decent online reference to check though. I did get that overview from a very pro Islam site. Though I generally try to get my information on this sort of thing from more neutral places.

But, it does seem the "in hell with their parents" bit was an old argument that got declared false?


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## omatic (Jul 13, 2011)

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Then logically, the most merciful and loving thing would be to kill any and all Christian, Jewish, or Muslim infants before they risk losing their access to Paradise, and before they have to experience decades of life in this flawed and terrible world.

Edit: But because any rational person isn't this deluded, nobody should kill any infants under normal circumstances.


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## tehnoobshow (Jul 13, 2011)

Personally i think that you should research various religions and thoroughly look at each one and then decide what religion would suit you best or even the one that makes the most sense to you.


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## bsfmtl123 (Jul 13, 2011)

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> Such as when trying to show there's modern embryology in there. Then you point out that's exactly what Aristotle said about it and they start arguing that the Koran doesn't say what Galen did?? And for someone who isn't arguing for creationism that sort of thing is very rare.
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> Again you are using the same argument which trolleydave used............What is your problem with embryology in Quran,it is valid and as far as Galen and Aristotle are concerned....their discovered Embryology is quite different.
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It was written in the Holy Quran about more than 1400 years ago(FACT).


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## Zetta_x (Jul 13, 2011)

As far as religion, I believe the most powerful* object in whatever existence can have the title of god. *what is powerful is subjective, but I would say something that is greater than everything else.

However, lets be logical, there is nothing more I can infer on this object and any books/masses/any other details would be speculating and not fact. If by chance this object coincides with a TRUE religion (which could be none out today), then who is to say I didn't believe in that god and deserve to go to whatever place after death (if there is a place).


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

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No the Koran meant it exactly 100% as it was written. And it was wrong. Does it mention evolution? Did the earth exist before the Sun? Matter before light? If you allow interpretation here you must allow it everywhere in the Koran.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 13, 2011)

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It's not fair because it's not true. It's been mentioned earlier that people unaware of the gospel, and thus of their Original Sin shall be judged by means of The Natural Law. Non-believers are not automatically sent to hell, that's a retarded idea of zelaous priests that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith whatsoever.

A child that dies before it's even capable of commiting sin applies to this principle, as it does not understand the gospel. That said, it's also too young to commit any sin at all. Thus, it goes to heaven. If it was baptised before death, the "issue" is actually non-existant - baptising cleans off the Original Sin.


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## cwstjdenobs (Jul 13, 2011)

Foxi4 said:
			
		

> It's not fair because it's not true. It's been mentioned earlier that people unaware of the gospel, and thus of their Original Sin shall be judged by means of The Natural Law. Non-believers are not automatically sent to hell, that's a retarded idea of zelaous priests that has nothing to do with the Catholic faith whatsoever.
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> And I guess Popes have nothing to do with the Catholic faith as well? In you interpretation it's not true but by your own declerations of what you believe you aren't a Catholic.
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> QUOTEA child that dies before it's even capable of commiting sin applies to this principle, as it does not understand the gospel. That said, it's also too young to commit any sin at all. Thus, it goes to heaven. If it was baptised before death, the "issue" is actually non-existant - baptising cleans off the Original Sin.



Yes but if it didn't have a baptism before it died? And come on, this is the church that won't allow stillborn babies to be buried properly because they aren't alive yet but won't allow abortion of even contraception because it's killing a human.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 13, 2011)

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It's not my own fantasy by no means. Provide me sufficient ammout of excerpts saying that a child which died before being baptised is sure to go to hell, much like I provided you with excerts that such a person shall not earlier in the thread. Like it was said, Jesus as Judge is entirely entitled to make exceptions in "Special Cases", and I'd say this would be a special case indeed.

Contraception is an open subject in the catholic church even as we speak. Abortion is obviously killing a person, contraception like condoms and such... not so much. The very idea of contraception wasn't even "there" yet when religious texts were being written, hence the only real "text" I could apply here is the text about Onan's Sin, which was about onanism (masturbation) in the sense of wasting semen being a sin, however we all know that it's obselete by hundreds of years.

It all goes down to your own conscience, really.


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 14, 2011)

Like I said, "hell" as most people think of is just the grave. A child that dies goes to the grave..._because it's *dead*_. Nothing happens there. You just don't exist.



			
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> If we were all descended from the the same two people, surely we would all have the same skin colour...
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Science has always existed. People just haven't had a grasp on it. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
(Funny enough, that could apply to other points in this thread too.)
So could you explain away verses which suggest that the Earth is round and "hanging upon nothing" (i.e. floating in space), all written centuries before Aristotle was born who thought the universe was made up of concentric circles made of ether and the stars were stuck to them?


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## Zetta_x (Jul 14, 2011)

I have read over and over again of people thinking they know what it was like 2000 years ago and what is sad is they compare modern communication/technology with ideas thousands of years ago.

People several thousand years ago may not have had any form of communication with the rest of the world. We pretty much do not even know what the average mindset was like 2000 years ago.


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## ShadowFyre (Jul 14, 2011)

How about we all take up Apatheism and call it a day?


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## Magmorph (Jul 14, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

> Science has always existed. People just haven't had a grasp on it. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> (Funny enough, that could apply to other points in this thread too.)
> So could you explain away verses which suggest that the Earth is round and "hanging upon nothing" (i.e. floating in space), all written centuries before Aristotle was born who thought the universe was made up of concentric circles made of ether and the stars were stuck to them?


Science has only existed since it was invented. It certainly has not always existed any more than a book already existed before it was written. 

The idea of a spherical earth was around for centuries before the Bible. 
The Bible never once claims the earth is a sphere, it claims it's a circle. It also mentions it having 4 corners. Even if the word is translated as meaning sphere, the earth is not a sphere. I don't think the Bible was being any more literal about the earth being a circle than it was about claiming it has 4 corners. The earth is neither hanging on nothing nor floating.

What about the countless other passages that directly contradict what we have learned from science? Do you choose to disregard those or perhaps interpret them differently?


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## ProtoKun7 (Jul 14, 2011)

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Tell that to NASA. I certainly don't see any sea turtles or elephants holding the planet up like people used to think.


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## koimayeul (Jul 14, 2011)

PyroSpark said:
			
		

> I've looked into this before, but it seems that whenever I get close  to believing, something comes up and makes me say "wait, what?" and puts me back to square one.So, is it possible to be a Christian if you're a logical thinker AND have not been raised with religion?



You can ask yourself the same about Chrisitanity, Islam, Budhism or whatever, logical thinking relies on Reason and religon relies on Faith.. it is up to each and every of us alive on this Earth to face the dilemma and chose for ourselves depending of everyone personal sensibility on the matter. End of story.

On a side note i shouldn't have said "ask yourself" but maybe "ask AWAY" cuz seeing a 300 post long 'blog" with only 3 miserable post of you OP on the "debate" makes it look like a free controversy thead and you, Sir, makes you look like a clown. (Pyrospark.. okay i get it) 

I bid you farewell on this obvious statement!


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## spinal_cord (Jul 14, 2011)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Science has only existed since it was invented. It certainly has not always existed any more than a book already existed before it was written.
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> Science as a word only existed since it's invention, but the study of our surroundings in order to figure them out has gone on since life itself. Every intelligent organism exhibits a curiosity about it's surroundings and as 'intelligent' can be used to describe every single creature in the entire univers that is capable of thought, science very likely pre-dates our own planet by billions of years.
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I disagree. Many religious people were indoctrinated into their 'chosen' religion from birth. they are told that the ancient values that their parents follow are the only correct ones and that all other religions will land you in eternal hell. There is no choice involved, people follow these religions because they are given no choice, do what 'God' says or be tortured forever. the best part is, that these punishments come from a loving forgiving god, coincidentally after you die so no proof need be offered.


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## Magmorph (Jul 14, 2011)

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Science is not an abstract concept. It is a man made method of collecting data and applying that data. A simple curiosity with the world is far from scientific.


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## spinal_cord (Jul 14, 2011)

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So are you suggesting that, with all of the billions of planets in a universe that is billions of years old, science has only existed for a few thousand years and can only have been utilized by humans on Earth?


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## Foxi4 (Jul 14, 2011)

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Alright then, how about Ancient Egyptian scribes studying the solar system, or the Mayan's accurate calendar. All before Christ, all "science". The fact that the term "science" did not exist doesn't mean that nobody performed it. It's like saying that water did not exist before someone came up with "H2O". Your point is moot.


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