# Piracy: Common Myths



## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

Piracy: Common Myths​

*Piracy is theft.*
This is by far the most common myth.  Piracy is not theft because it does not cause any direct damage or loss to the other party (in fact, whether there's another party at all is sometimes up for debate).  Theft, on the other hand, is a criminal act because in committing an act of theft, you deprive somebody of something.  If I go and take an old lady's purse, _then due to my actions the old lady has been caused a loss_, her purse.  However, when pirating, _nobody loses anything_.  The pirater gains _a copy of_ some digital item, while the person/entity who originally created that item _is completely unaffected by the act_.

The legal term for theft is "larceny" and is under criminal law, while piracy is "Copyright Infringement", which is under civil law (except exceedingly-rare cases that edge into a felony).  If downloading a song from the internet causes somebody's bank account to magically have money subtracted out of it or causes physical copies of the item in question to poof into thin air, I would _love_ to know how that works.



*Piracy is not theft, so it's not illegal.*
Many people realize that piracy is not theft and doesn't cause a loss, so they assume that it's not illegal.  That is false, in fact people go to court and/or get sued for piracy all the time.  Civil law is still law.



*If I'm caught pirating I only need to repay the retail cost of the product so it's not a big risk.*
While criminal cases often require that fees/damages are proportional to the property in question, no such relation is required for civil cases.  It's not uncommon to see somebody fined $9,500 _per song_.



*It's only illegal to upload, downloading is legal.*
This myth comes into being from people being taken to court for uploading.  In reality downloading is illegal too, however the fees for uploading combined with downloading can be much bigger, setting a larger example, so that's generally what companies take people to court for, to make the biggest example out of them.



*It's okay to download something if I already have a real copy.*
A myth commonly proposed by ROM/ISO sites, this is false as well.  Nowhere do any of the laws or regulations add "unless you already have a copy".  The concept of a single backup in "fair use" is commonly-mentioned, but this revolves around _you creating_ your own copy, downloading _somebody else's copy_ is taking part in "distribution", which is still illegal (and the main focus of copyright law).



*This old game is no longer being sold, so it's out of copyright and it's fine to download.*
Copyright on modern (1978 and newer) works lasts 70 years past the author's death, or 95-120 years for an anonymous work.  Whether it's _still_ sold or not has no bearing on this.



*I can download it as long as I delete it within 24 hours.*
There's nothing official that says this, this is an outright lie.



*I bought the disc/cart/game, so I can do whatever I want with the software on it!*
Sadly, false as well.  In the majority of cases, what you have bought is a physical object containing the information and a license to use that single copy of the information, which is different from owning the object outright.


> Ownership of a “copy” [...] – the tangible embodiment of the “work” – is distinct from the “work” itself – the intangible intellectual property.





*Piracy causes job loss.*
Commonly-stated by large corporations, but has no actual backing.  In fact a government report (PDF) has looked into many commonly-cited numbers and reports for piracy and found them to have no actual backing, or to consist of outright lies in their references.



*I'm just some guy on a forum, they'll never get me.*
Tell that to GBATemp member kongsnutz, who was sued for $1,500,000 AUD.



*That's just US law, copyright stuff doesn't apply to me in another country so I can pirate all I want.*
While I'm using US laws and regulations primarily since it's a main concern of this forum, this is another falsehood.  The WIPO/Berne Convention is a worldwide agreement, if your country is in the member list (there's over 100 countries there, so you most likely are) then your country recognizes the copyrights of other countries and has it's own laws in place to deal with violations.  Look at the above example, which took place in Australia.



*Piracy kills game systems.*
There is no correlation between systems that fail (or succeed) and piracy.  Multiple systems have failed terribly without any piracy in their lifetime (Virtual Boy, N-Gage, CD-i), while other systems that had piracy enabled for the majority of their lifetime ended up being some of the top sellers of their generation (PS1, Wii, GBA, DS, etc.)

This holds true for games as well, for example the PS3 was the last console of the 7th generation to be hacked (and patched the hacks quickly and recent models are unhackable), yet it sold many less games than the Wii, which was the first to be hacked (and does not patch hacks quickly, and still has hackable models being sold).


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## DS1 (Mar 20, 2013)

I was always bothered by piracy being called piracy. I understand that our use of words changes, but it's sad that the transfer of data (whether or not you have the right) is likened to hijacking a truck on the open road and selling the goods in Chinatown. There is an ethical dilemma in acquiring something (however un/limited the supply is) you didn't pay for, but it's quite different than profiting off of something you physically stole from someone else.


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

DS1 said:


> I was always bothered by piracy being called piracy. I understand that our use of words changes, but it's sad that the transfer of data (whether or not you have the right) is likened to hijacking a truck on the open road and selling the goods in Chinatown. There is an ethical dilemma in acquiring something (however un/limited the supply is) you didn't pay for, but it's quite different than profiting off of something you physically stole from someone else.


It's kinda' funny, it was the MPAA (or an organization like them) I think that originally called it "piracy", because they wanted to give it a bad, dirty image.


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## pokefloote (Mar 20, 2013)

I agree with this 100%. One thing though, backing up your own media creates a 100% identical copy of what you could download from the internet, so what's the difference? Besides like actually being traced through a torrent or something, how can you prove or disprove if it's legal or not?

edit: I should say that I know it's the actual act of downloading that's wrong.


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

pokefloote said:


> I agree with this 100%. One thing though, backing up your own media creates a 100% identical copy of what you could download from the internet, so what's the difference? Besides like actually being traced through a torrent or something, how can you prove or disprove if it's legal or not?
> 
> edit: I should say that I know it's the actual act of downloading that's wrong.


If they take you to court for downloading, it's because they have the records of you doing it.


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## xwatchmanx (Mar 20, 2013)

This is a pretty useful and well-sourced list. When I first saw the title, I thought this was gonna be just another fusterclucked piracy debate thread. 



Spoiler



Which it will probably become eventually, but oh well.


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## 2ndApex (Mar 20, 2013)

DS1 said:


> I was always bothered by piracy being called piracy. I understand that our use of words changes, but it's sad that the transfer of data (whether or not you have the right) is likened to hijacking a truck on the open road and selling the goods in Chinatown. There is an ethical dilemma in acquiring something (however un/limited the supply is) you didn't pay for, but it's quite different than profiting off of something you physically stole from someone else.


 
I've always liked to use the term "shared" copy and " (illegal) digital media sharing" over "pirated" and "piracy", it's gets rid of any ridiculous positive or negative connotation that other terms tend to intentionally tack on.


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## TyBlood13 (Mar 20, 2013)

Slightly off-topic, but did kongsnutz win his case? I've only read about the case being filed.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 20, 2013)

The Berne/Wipo doesn't mean that US copyright law applies in every country that agrees with it, it's an agreemente that says that copyright holders of other countries have the same rights as the national copyright holder within that country's territory, and makes some minimum requirements about how the countries in the agreement have to deal with copyright, which doesn't mean that copyright related law of the USA aplies to other countries.

 That mean that if I illegaly download a work of a french artist, I'll be judged according to my country's law not the french law, not the US law.


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## chyyran (Mar 20, 2013)

Well, this is a useful sticky

Thanks Rydian


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## Devin (Mar 20, 2013)

Eh, kongsnutz flashed multiple pictures of his receipt in this board. Pretty sure it was spread to other boards as well. Like painting a target for Nintendo, with a huge flashing LED sign that says "Hit me".

Nice to see some justification on the subject of piracy, god know how many threads we have on the legality of it.


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## DS1 (Mar 20, 2013)

2ndApex said:


> I've always liked to use the term "shared" copy and " (illegal) digital media sharing" over "pirated" and "piracy", it's gets rid of any ridiculous positive or negative connotation that other terms tend to intentionally tack on.


 
I'm not even bothered by giving it a negative connotation, but it's like how people use the word 'rape' so freely. You seriously can't understand how bad something is if you're using it to describe something trivial.


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## Gahars (Mar 20, 2013)

Can we add "Pirating games makes me a rebel!" to the list?


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## Psionic Roshambo (Mar 20, 2013)

Also you don't have to have a peg leg or a parrot or an eye patch to be a pirate.... Although having all three would be pretty awesome if you where! 

I do have a 3 X 5 foot Jolly Roger hanging over my desk.... lol


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## XDel (Mar 20, 2013)

Stupid pirates and their peg legs.


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## KidIce (Mar 20, 2013)

Surprisingly objective... Not because it's you, Rydian, but because of the subject at hand. It's hard to take a subject the many get very passionate about and not throw your own skew on it. I mean, I want to SOOooo... add something about the "pirated copy = 1:1 lost sales" non-sense but I'd have a hard time doing so w/o some "my personal experience", opinion and "it's just common sense. Are you stupid or something... OR WHAT?!?"

I'd love to think this would curb some of the dip-shittery we tend to see in the flame wars <cough>... I mean "debates" on the subject on this forum, but I've been around too long and I'm too jaded. :-)

None the less, kudos.


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## DiabloStorm (Mar 20, 2013)

Rydian said:


> It's kinda' funny, it was the MPAA (or an organization like them) I think that originally called it "piracy", because they wanted to give it a bad, dirty image.


B-But I like Jack Sparrow...I also kinda look like a stereotypical Pirate....


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> The Berne/Wipo doesn't mean that US copyright law applies in every country that agrees with it, it's an agreemente that says that copyright holders of other countries have the same rights as the national copyright holder within that country's territory, and makes some minimum requirements about how the countries in the agreement have to deal with copyright, which doesn't mean that copyright related law of the USA aplies to other countries.
> 
> That mean that if I illegaly download a work of a french artist, I'll be judged according to my country's law not the french law, not the US law.


Didn't say the laws were cross-country. 



Gahars said:


> Can we add "Pirating games makes me a rebel!" to the list?


If I could find some easily-read stats on how many people actually pirate and slap it up with "See everybody does it, you poser"...



KidIce said:


> I mean, I want to SOOooo... add something about the "pirated copy = 1:1 lost sales" non-sense but I'd have a hard time doing so w/o some "my personal experience", opinion and "it's just common sense. Are you stupid or something... OR WHAT?!?"


If somebody does bring that up, I can point to the government study which notes how most of the figures for concepts like "lost sale" are total guesses with no actual studies behind them.


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## LDAsh (Mar 20, 2013)

The myth is that piracy doesn't have a negative effect on game development in any sense.  'This is false'.  It does, but in a way that many can't conceive and so is barely mentioned by anyone.

First, people need to understand the difference between a developer and a publisher.  Developers actually create the games, write the code and produce the media.  Developers create what you as a gamer actually enjoy, if only you could know about it and get your itchy hands on it.  This is where publishers come in.  Publishers are responsible for primarily littering their name all over it, the first screen you will see when booting up any title is legal jargon and then the publisher's splash, NOT the developer's splash.  The developer's splash usually appears right at the end in a fleeting glimpse, so obscure a name that nobody is ever going to remember.  That's why so many gamers refer to 'Ubisoft games', 'Activision games', etc.  The publishers have won this battle for your mind, this is clear.  Publishers are responsible for dealing with marketing, manufacturers and retailers, and fully have both hands stuffed into the cookie jar, while developers scrounge under the table like dogs for the crumbs to fall to the floor, just to survive and continue developing.  Publishers have the 'brand name' that is steadfast and protected, because of the previously mentioned factor, while developers are so increasingly broken up and reformed into new studios, so much these days that it's almost like 1 studio each for 1 title each, before they are broken up again and reformed, almost always due to financial strain.

So, nobody can know what they're talking about until they stop seeing 'game makers' as singular, large 'faceless corporations' and begin to distinguish between developers and publishers in a real-world sense.  Yes it's true that some publishers are also developers and many publishers have 'in-house' development studios, but we still need to distinguish because it doesn't always work this way and it still doesn't justify such a simple view on the people who bring us the games.  They are typically two different distinct groups.

So, the negative effect is pretty simple to explain after we realise this distinction.  Publishers are junkies for marketing and marketing research.  It's exactly the same for many other types of media, films, music and even books, all have publishers with dollar signs in their eyes who hold all the cards but of course can't really do much without actual creative people, artists and technical wizards, who come from all walks of life and degrees of education.  An analogy is that, one might argue, someone who came from a poor upbringing with maybe not even a high-school education is more likely to create some rap/hip-hop lyrics and beats that resonate on a more realistic level with their intended audience than someone whose daddy busted out his credit card to pay for his white-bread honky son to attend hip-hop university and receive a master's degree in fabricating bustin' beats all laboratory-like.  This is a strong point to the following argument because it's exactly the same with game development these days, there are actually 'game development schools' and 'digital art schools', and where there is cash willing to be spent, there are those who believe and have made reality that 'you can just buy artistic talent and original creativity', since there's little to no other way such people could even obtain it on their own.  Them real-world streets is scary.

Publishers spend a huge amount of their profits on marketing research, what sells, to whom and for which reasons.  When the evidence is great enough it is simply irresistible and a looping feedback occurs.  This is not just from game sales research but from popular culture in general.  It's a brutally literal and cold scientific approach to what should be a freely artistic and creative process.  If a recent film is successful at the same time a recent chart-topper is successful, then publishers want a game that incorporates all of these elements for maximum cash factor and maximum return on their investment.  From contrived to downright borderline plagiarised.  Hair-styles and clothing fashion, are blondes or brunettes the trend, etc.  These days, developers are, more often than not, told what to create and how, and given just barely enough creative room to manoeuvre any original ideas around within these limitations.  Limitations imposed on them by publishers directly from marketing research.

When you pirate games, you do put some financial strain on the publishers, whether real or illusionary, from some such research reports.  All that publishers need to know is that their title is being pirated and that's enough to get them snapping pencils at the board meeting.  It doesn't even necessarily need to be real, or at least minimal evidence is required.  This is what gamers, pirates or not, fail to realise.  Then what happens is that it's not the trend-mongering parasites with sales figures and marketing research that get hurt, they will continue to be developed, but it's the creative risk-takers that suffer, where there's no sales figures to back them up.  Usually newbie developers who have struggled hard and financed their dream project out of their own pockets, who have actually sacrificed produced a game stained with their blood, sweat and tears.  Think about it, many of the games we now consider popular staples were once genre-breaking risks, developed by nobodies and making potential publishers very nervous.  Publishers who typically don't know any better than to reside within the confines of their marketing research and sales figures.  Originality gets postponed or binned completely, while publishers confidently churn out Twilight, Hannah Montana, Harry Potter, Barbie, etc.  You get the idea...  Trend-mongering and targeting an audience who, even if they knew how to pirate a game, probably wouldn't anyway.

I could go on and on but I will just say - when you pirate games you hurt small independent developers whom you mistakenly identify as these same 'faceless corporations', and you help welcome more trend-mongering parasites who spew more bland and shallow rubbish onto the market that is empty of originality, both in terms of gameplay and concept, perpetuating the marketing feedback and this all only makes things worse.  It's a downward spiral.

Don't believe me?  Just take a look!  Support the developers who deserve to be supported, otherwise look outside and see them collecting your garbage to make a living.  Make the distinction between publishers and developers, then open your eyes finally, with just a little maturity and intelligence, it should be clear as day.


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## NightsOwl (Mar 20, 2013)

The funny thing I have a friend who downloads 40+GB games in a day and plays them once and just deletes them.
If he gets caught I'm going to have to laugh at him, considering I told him that was an extremely stupid thing to do.


I used to download everything I wanted. But lately I've been buying the games I've enjoyed when I pirating them. Oddly enough it makes me glad to support the store I buy them from (It's not Gametop and considering I get them used). Seems like a good time for me to stop all together considering piracy and rules and everything about it are starting to get changed. Quite frankly, I'm too lazy to be careful about downloading. So I'll just buy what I want for cheap.

Edit: I'm not trying to say pirates are evil and stuff either. So if you get that from my post, don't. I'm just saying I enjoy not downloading everything anymore.


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## nukeboy95 (Mar 20, 2013)

i consider  piracy (On some levels but not all) sharing and isn't sharing caring


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> when you pirate games you [...] help welcome more trend-mongering parasites who spew more bland and shallow rubbish onto the market that is empty of originality, both in terms of gameplay and concept, perpetuating the marketing feedback and this all only makes things worse.  It's a downward spiral.
> 
> Don't believe me?  Just take a look!  Support the developers who deserve to be supported, otherwise look outside and see them collecting your garbage to make a living.  Make the distinction between publishers and developers, then open your eyes finally, with just a little maturity and intelligence, it should be clear as day.


This falls into the same "You list a cause and an effect, but not _how it actually happens_" category as claiming piracy causes monetary damage...


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## VashTS (Mar 20, 2013)

if it was not shared digitally, it would be done with hardware. i would rent from somewhere and rip it.


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## LDAsh (Mar 20, 2013)

Rydian said:
			
		

> This falls into the same "You list a cause and an effect, but not _how it actually happens_" category as claiming piracy causes monetary damage...


I mentioned how it happens, both cause and effect. Cause is just the mention of the word 'piracy' to the publishing heads, and effect is that smaller risk-taking developers get punished while publishers do such things as implement anti-piracy measures into their newest High School Musical title. Ask yourself, if you were a publisher, would you risk a bunch of cash and anger your investors by publishing something that, while may be innovative, pioneering and genre-carving, won't bring in the dollars, or would you play it safe with Justin Bieber on the cover?


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 20, 2013)

> In South Korea, many video game consumers exploit illegal copies of video games, including for the Nintendo DS. In 2007, 500,000 copies of DS games were sold, while the sales of the DS hardware units was 800,000.


source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_ds#Hacking_and_homebrew

I don't think it is correct to say companies suffer monetary loss with piracy, what actually happens is that the potential market for legit games shrinks which can also be damaging for games companies. But as a matter of fact, the gaming business has become more lucrative with time, so it's debatable how much damage piracy really makes.


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> I mentioned how it happens, both cause and effect. Cause is just the mention of the word 'piracy' to the publishing heads, and effect is that smaller risk-taking developers get punished while publishers do such things as implement anti-piracy measures into their newest High School Musical title. Ask yourself, if you were a publisher, would you risk a bunch of cash and anger your investors by publishing something that, while may be innovative, pioneering and genre-carving, won't bring in the dollars, or would you play it safe with Justin Bieber on the cover?


So if my mom smacked me every time somebody farted in public, the solution is to get everybody to stop farting in public because it's their fault, right?


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## mechadylan (Mar 20, 2013)

Rydian said:


> It's kinda' funny, it was the MPAA (or an organization like them) I think that originally called it "piracy", because they wanted to give it a bad, dirty image.


There was a time when I remember people throwing around the term "pirates and bootleggers."  Piracy, at one point, was synonymous with people that duplicated media *and* turned around and sold their bootlegs for profit; this is no longer the case.  I think a common myth is that "piracy" has to involve some sort of "commercial gain" in order to qualify as such.  Personal gain is just notable as commercial gain when being labeled a pirate.


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

mechadylan said:


> There was a time when I remember people throwing around the term "pirates and bootleggers."  Piracy, at one point, was synonymous with people that duplicated media *and* turned around and sold their bootlegs for profit; this is no longer the case.  I think a common myth is that "piracy" has to involve some sort of "commercial gain" in order to qualify as such.  Personal gain is just notable as commercial gain when being labeled a pirate.


Yeah that used to be a really common thing, but I haven't seen it in ages so I don't know if it's nearly common enough to go here.


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## LDAsh (Mar 20, 2013)

Rydian said:
			
		

> So if my mom smacked me every time somebody farted in public, the solution is to get everybody to stop farting in public because it's their fault, right?


This analogy doesn't really work, but let's say your more attractive and charming brother farts and your mom will smack you, the younger, less attractive sibling, simply because she doesn't want to harm your brother's perceived flawless image, for he is more likely to graduate, get a good job and bring her home her retirement bacon, while you, on the other hand, are more likely to drop out of high school and start smoking pot. Is it right? No. But not everyone can be blessed with a mentally stable mom who will dish out smacks where justified and onto the correct child, simply because of the dollars signs in the eyeballs.

If you want to know how cynical people think, you need to become mostly cynical yourself.

Will an instant end to piracy stop publishers from smacking the wrong child? No. But it will at least, over some time, level out the playfield and distribute the smacks more equally. Publishers are hypersensitive to this, and like I said, it's the little developers that suffer, the younger acne-ridden brother.


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## The Milkman (Mar 20, 2013)

mechadylan said:


> There was a time when I remember people throwing around the term "pirates and bootleggers." Piracy, at one point, was synonymous with people that duplicated media *and* turned around and sold their bootlegs for profit; this is no longer the case. I think a common myth is that "piracy" has to involve some sort of "commercial gain" in order to qualify as such. Personal gain is just notable as commercial gain when being labeled a pirate.


 
Yeah, I remeber that. If you went around downloading music it wasnt a big deal, companies would usually go after the guy whos downloading it and putting it on CDs, then selling them on the corner of the block or at your local walgreens. Now, it seems they dont even want you sharing media (I mean over a site like Youtube, not popping your friend like, all the download links) without consent.


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## Snailface (Mar 20, 2013)

mechadylan said:


> There was a time when I remember people throwing around the term "pirates and bootleggers." Piracy, at one point, was synonymous with people that duplicated media *and* turned around and sold their bootlegs for profit; this is no longer the case. I think a common myth is that "piracy" has to involve some sort of "commercial gain" in order to qualify as such. Personal gain is just notable as commercial gain when being labeled a pirate.


Avoiding expenditure is commercial gain.

If I'm a hot-shot lawyer making $500,000 who successfully evades taxes, I effectively double my income.
A lawyer who makes $1,000,000, and who pays taxes, makes the same income as the tax evading lawyer.

I'm not saying a bootlegger isn't morally inferior to a pirate, I'm just saying commercial gain can be more than just selling stuff.
edit: (upon a more careful reading, it seems you are trying to make the same point I am, doh -.-)


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## ShadowSoldier (Mar 20, 2013)

tl;dr, Piracy is wrong. People shouldn't do it. Don't be a dick. Support the developers so we get more great games.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 20, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> tl;dr, Piracy is wrong. People shouldn't do it. Don't be a dick. Support the developers so we get more great games.


No!


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> This analogy doesn't really work, but let's say your more attractive and charming brother farts and your mom will smack you, the younger, less attractive sibling, simply because she doesn't want to harm your brother's perceived flawless image, for he is more likely to graduate, get a good job and bring her home her retirement bacon, while you, on the other hand, are more likely to drop out of high school and start smoking pot. Is it right? No. But not everyone can be blessed with a mentally stable mom who will dish out smacks where justified and onto the correct child, simply because of the dollars signs in the eyeballs.
> 
> If you want to know how cynical people think, you need to become mostly cynical yourself.
> 
> Will an instant end to piracy stop publishers from smacking the wrong child? No. But it will at least, over some time, level out the playfield and distribute the smacks more equally. Publishers are hypersensitive to this, and like I said, it's the little developers that suffer, the younger acne-ridden brother.


*I'm not going to choose ignorance over education.*  If publishers see piracy and choose to harm developers in reaction, then it's the publishers that harm developers, not piracy.


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## LDAsh (Mar 20, 2013)

*



			I'm not going to choose ignorance over education.
		
Click to expand...

*


> If publishers see piracy and choose to harm developers in reaction, then it's the publishers that harm developers, not piracy


Now here you are absolutely right!  But try telling *them* that.  Pirating more games certainly isn't going to send the message.  Money is all that matters.  Money is *God*, know this and know the inner mechanisms of global society.  This is why I say it's a downward spiral and it's only going to get worse.  Innocents get hurt unfairly and it's wrong, but that little sentiment isn't as important as cold hard cash, now is it.  3DS protection has maybe done some good for this, we're seeing more thoroughly developed 3DS titles instead of endless shovelware we saw on the DS, at least, but it hasn't really opened the doors to more innovation and originality that mostly, pehaps only, comes from smaller independent developers that haven't been brain-damaged by these mechanisms.  Small developers do well when they contrive, aim small and do their own cute little marketing research themselves, essentially sucking the same sausages as their publisher and larger studio counterparts.


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## hisagishi (Mar 20, 2013)

Did that 1m dollar pirate ever pay it off?


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## ilman (Mar 20, 2013)

Good thing I live in Bulgaria. Everybody here pirates. Heck, I know 20 people with PSPs and almost none of them have ever bought a game, but all of them have 5 or more games on their memory sticks.


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## Kouen Hasuki (Mar 20, 2013)

amusingly, at one point one of my Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines CD's became broken so I phoned up Activision and asked would it be OK if I acquired a backup copy from the internet of that disc of the 3 disc set if I have a retail copy and proof of buying and they said yes you can, I was like could you email me that and they did xD

that kinda shocked me all the way back then when I did it (must be like 7 years ago now) lol, These days I re-bought the game on steam


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## Wizerzak (Mar 20, 2013)

pokefloote said:


> I agree with this 100%. One thing though, backing up your own media creates a 100% identical copy of what you could download from the internet, so what's the difference? Besides like actually being traced through a torrent or something, how can you prove or disprove if it's legal or not?
> 
> edit: I should say that I know it's the actual act of downloading that's wrong.


Actually, from waht I understand, it's not the downloading as such, but the fact that by downloading you are making a copy of the information on the internet. If you could have a service that lets you download something while also removing the file from the server, that wouldn't be illegal (ie for exchange digital data between friends).


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## mr allen (Mar 20, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> Now here you are absolutely right! But try telling *them* that. Pirating more games certainly isn't going to send the message. Money is all that matters. Money is *God*, know this and know the inner mechanisms of global society. This is why I say it's a downward spiral and it's only going to get worse. Innocents get hurt unfairly and it's wrong, but that little sentiment isn't as important as cold hard cash, now is it. 3DS protection has maybe done some good for this, we're seeing more thoroughly developed 3DS titles instead of endless shovelware we saw on the DS, at least, but it hasn't really opened the doors to more innovation and originality that mostly, pehaps only, comes from smaller independent developers that haven't been brain-damaged by these mechanisms. Small developers do well when they contrive, aim small and do their own cute little marketing research themselves, essentially sucking the same sausages as their publisher and larger studio counterparts.


I'm probably missing something but I don't see what piracy has to do with a publisher choosing a game that they know will make money instead of some game from some small time developer that may or may not make any money.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 20, 2013)

Wizerzak said:


> but the fact that by downloading you are making a copy of the information on the internet.



So is making a backup... The only difference is that instead of making a copy from the file in the internet you're making a copy of your own physical/digital media. And that's how files in the internet start anyway, a backup that is uploaded.


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

The difference between copying your disc and downloading a copy off the internet is that if you backup your disc, you're backing up your copy, and there's no distribution (the entire process involves ONLY you), while if you download off the internet you're using somebody ELSE's backup, and it's being distributed without permission.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 20, 2013)

Rydian said:


> The difference between copying your disc and downloading a copy off the internet is that if you backup your disc, you're backing up your copy, and there's no distribution (the entire process involves ONLY you), while if you download off the internet you're using somebody ELSE's backup, and it's being distributed without permission.


You're getting the exact same file in both cases. The only true difference is that in one of the cases you can rest assured that the FBI won't knock on your door  

Also, by this logic intentionally buying a bootleg version of a game you already own should be just as illegal as downloading the game. (It's being distributed illegaly and it contains a copy of somebody else's backup)


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> You're getting the exact same file in both cases. The only true difference is that in one of the cases you can rest assured that the FBI won't knock on your door
> 
> Also, by this logic intentionally buying a bootleg version of a game you already own should be just as illegal as downloading the game. (It's being distributed illegaly and it contains a copy of somebody else's backup)


In bootleg cases the person who's _physically_ producing the copy is the target.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 20, 2013)

Rydian said:


> In bootleg cases the person who's _physically_ producing the copy is the target.


Okay, learned my lesson! No more downloading games, now I'll just buy bootlegs!


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

Do not know if sarcasm.


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## LDAsh (Mar 20, 2013)

mr allen said:
			
		

> I'm probably missing something but I don't see what piracy has to do with a publisher choosing a game that they know will make money instead of some game from some small time developer that may or may not make any money.


It's primarily to do with manufacturing and marketing, a cost usually always covered by the publisher and not the developer and which gives a publisher the right to claim most of the overall profits, which they always do and something like 80%-90% is not unreasonable. A developer may be able to fork out for this, but would a publisher want them to? Otherwise they can't stuff their hands so deep into the cookie jar justifiably. They'll probably tell the developer something that equates to "Well you can just go and be your own damn publisher then, can't you!"...

Otherwise, one may create the most awesome game in the world, but without marketing and getting it onto the shelf, whether physical or virtual, who will know about it to actually buy it, even pirate it.

I'm not actually 100% against piracy, I'm just against rampant piracy of games whose sales would mean more games from that particular developer on that particular system. That's what it really all boils down to.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 20, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Do not know if sarcasm.


I am not THAT stupid, Rydian! But I see you got a point, don't worry


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## kristianity77 (Mar 20, 2013)

I dont really have any guilt pirating stuff.  I have my own weird logic behind it and why it doesnt bother me.

I have consoles which I dont hack, like the Xbox 360 and a PS3 which I buy everything legit for (120 games between the two consoles), and then on the other hand I have a couple of consoles that I do pirate for like the Wii and the PSP.  I justify this to myself by the fact that if these consoles werent hackable, Id never ever have bought one. So who is losing money from me, or losing a sale when they would never have made it in the first place to me personally.


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## Depravo (Mar 20, 2013)

...and then there's the one about it being legal to download a ROM if you delete it within 24 hours.


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## Rydian (Mar 20, 2013)

Oh, right, yeah that one was on ROM sites everywhere, added.


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## xist (Mar 20, 2013)

It's very difficult to get a developers point of view on piracy so i think that the following is worth a mention. From an interview with Ready At Dawn's Creative Director (God of War Chains of Olympus, God of War Ghost of Sparta, Daxter)

Remember this is a DEVELOPER, not the publisher...the Dev's have to weigh up how attractive their work will be to publishers. Read the last three questions but i'll quote one to give a flavour



> *How bad do you feel the piracy situation is on the PSP and DS?*
> *Ru Weerasuriya: *Both of them have problems. I’m not very familiar with how it is on the DS, but on the PSP it’s pretty rampant now all around the world.
> It’s getting to the point where it doesn’t make sense to make games on it, if the piracy keeps on increasing. It’s a tough call right now to say what’s going to happen to it and where it’s going to go, but it definitely hurts a lot of developers out there who are trying to make great games.


http://www.vg247.com/2010/10/26/int...st-of-sparta-wii-development-piracy-and-more/


In the music industry studies have shown people actually spend MORE on legitimate music purchases when they pirate (overall - 1 , 2). However, it's difficult transferring that research to gaming because the replay usage is very different.


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## LDAsh (Mar 20, 2013)

I think music is different purely because even at 320kbps the compression makes it sound pukey and horrible. Bigger and better speakers only amplifies the compression, I hear it all the time. It took a decade or so but people finally wake up to hear the sloshy cymbals that sound more like someone hitting a soggy garbage bag than what a clean smash of the cymbal should actually sound like.

For pirated games, for the most part, the 'quality' is absolutely the same.


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## xist (Mar 20, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> I think music is different purely because even at 320kbps the compression makes it sound pukey and horrible. Bigger and better speakers only amplifies the compression, I hear it all the time. It took a decade or so but people finally wake up to hear the sloshy cymbals that sound more like someone hitting a soggy garbage bag than what a clean smash of the cymbal should actually sound like.


 
And that's an entirely different myth...for the vast majority of the music buying public 192 or above is fine. Sure you can ABX Flac vs any lossy encode, but the point is that many people actively have to try and spot the (slight) difference, and that difference is generally fullness of sound rather than any one instrument (excluding encode artefacts). Cymbal crash and sustain is generally fine on today's higher quality codecs. If you hear it you're in a tiny, tiny minority...trawling audiophile forums you'll find people who agree with you, but then again are those people the majority?

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/06/concluding-the-great-mp3-bitrate-experiment.html

The hoops you jump through to pirate games, and in many instances the bandwidth used, offset the quality issue. The point is that people like to OWN things.


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## Carnivean (Mar 20, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> I think music is different purely because even at 320kbps the compression makes it sound pukey and horrible. Bigger and better speakers only amplifies the compression, I hear it all the time. It took a decade or so but people finally wake up to hear the sloshy cymbals that sound more like someone hitting a soggy garbage bag than what a clean smash of the cymbal should actually sound like.
> 
> For pirated games, for the most part, the 'quality' is absolutely the same.


Most people are completely incapable of hearing a difference even before investing a couple grand into a sound set up to actually justify anything more than 320kbps.

And really, especially on PC, pirated games are of higher quality. People want things like undubs and activation bypasses.


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## BORTZ (Mar 20, 2013)

can u add thsi 2 teh OP plz


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## the_randomizer (Mar 20, 2013)

I am guilty of doing this very thing, or rather, buying games legitimately and then removing the DRM from said legally purchased game (Ubisoft, I'm looking at you). I don't agree with companies' stance on combating piracy by implementing always-online DRM because it doesn't do anything to stop piracy. If anything, it exacerbates the issue; if they truly want people to obtain their games by legal means, invasive draconian anti-piracy measures are not going to attract potential buyers. Splinter Cell Conviction comes to mind. I bought the game from their store, they gave me a key code to activate the game with, but this was on my parent's connection (which is both very fast and very stable) and the always-online DRM isn't an issue. I move out to an apartment complex where the internet is more unstable/drops frequently. This makes the DRM a roadblock and the game impossible to play because of the unstable nature of the connection. So tell me what's more immoral, the company making such restrictive DRM to legitimate customers to the point of *making a well-spent purchase unusable due to s****y internet*, *or* to have a customer download a patch that makes his/her* legally purchased game* *usable regardless of the internet*?

As for piracy, what people do in their homes is their business. I'm not going to impose my beliefs on other people. Personally, I couldn't care less, especially when it comes to legitimately purchased products like always-internet enabled games. If people spend the money and have bad internet, they should be able to play the game without such restrictions. Draconian DRM doesn't stop piracy, like look at Sim City and Maxis/EA. That worked well for them, right?


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## mechadylan (Mar 20, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> I think music is different purely because even at 320kbps the compression makes it sound pukey and horrible. Bigger and better speakers only amplifies the compression, I hear it all the time. It took a decade or so but people finally wake up to hear the sloshy cymbals that sound more like someone hitting a soggy garbage bag than what a clean smash of the cymbal should actually sound like.
> 
> For pirated games, for the most part, the 'quality' is absolutely the same.


People have been ripping cds to their computers for years; for use from everything from portable mp3 players to laptop djs.  I've never heard anyone (outside of audiophile magazines) complain about quality.


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## pyromaniac123 (Mar 20, 2013)

I wonder how many pages this thread can get to.


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## WiiUBricker (Mar 20, 2013)

Yet another piracy thread. Woohoo!


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## the_randomizer (Mar 20, 2013)

And another thing. I don't agree with the whole "you only have the license to use a music CD or a DVD" principle. If I spend hard-earned cash on music or a movie, I should be able to make personal backups for it, but at the same time, I refuse to give backups to anyone else. Same with making ISO images of games I purchase. If GBA Temp is so hellbent on having zero tolerance for piracy, why then does it promote programs like Dios Mios (lite), which *gasp* enables people to back up games into ISO images, which according to US copyright law, is illegal?


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## Veho (Mar 20, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> And another thing. I don't agree with the whole "you only have the license to use a music CD or a DVD" principle. If I spend hard-earned cash on music or a movie, I should be able to make personal backups for it, but at the same time, I refuse to give backups to anyone else.


That's what "license" means.


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## the_randomizer (Mar 20, 2013)

Veho said:


> That's what "license" means.


 
What? I mean that even with a "license", you're not allowed to legally make backups, as per US copyright law. That is something I cannot agree with, and that sure as hell isn't going to stop me from making backups for personal use.


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## wrettcaughn (Mar 20, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> What? I mean that even with a "license", you're not allowed to legally make backups, as per US copyright law. That is something I cannot agree with, and that sure as hell isn't going to stop me from making backups for personal use.


The content is the property of the content creator and/or publisher.  You purchase a license to use said content in a manner in which the content creator or publisher allow.  If they do not allow copies to be made, you are not allowed to make copies.

Trent Reznor, for instance, has created music for a few years now and handled distribution himself.  The license his IP is sold under allows for any and all fair use, in fact, you can use any of his music for any purpose whatsoever as long as you credit him for it and provide a copy of the license.

It's completely up to the content creator/publisher what you're allowed to do with their IP.


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## the_randomizer (Mar 20, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> The content is the property of the content creator and/or publisher. You purchase a license to use said content in a manner in which the content creator or publisher allow. If they do not allow copies to be made, you are not allowed to make copies.
> 
> Trent Reznor, for instance, has created music for a few years now and handled distribution himself. The license his IP is sold under allows for any and all fair use, in fact, you can use any of his music for any purpose whatsoever as long as you credit him for it and provide a copy of the license.
> 
> It's completely up to the content creator/publisher what you're allowed to do with their IP.


 
Meh. That's not going to curtail piracy, neither will DRM. People will do what they do and it's not my problem. Same with backing up games, Dios Mios allows people to rip their games to their HDD, and yet GBA temp frowns upon piracy and/or the circumvention of AP measures.

I'm done here. Piracy is rampant, it will never be stopped, and I don't find anything immoral about making personal copies of a game or DVD you legally obtained.  If the disc gets damages, I sure as hell aren't going to fork out the cash to get a new copy.


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## wrettcaughn (Mar 20, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Meh. That's not going to curtail piracy, neither will DRM. People will do what they do and it's not my problem. Same with backing up games, Dios Mios allows people to rip their games to their HDD, and yet GBA temp frowns upon piracy and/or the circumvention of AP measures.


Not trying to sway you either way. You just seemed confused as to what a license was.

GBAtemp frowns on piracy for self-preservation.  If the law didn't care about piracy, neither would GBAtemp.  However, to stay "in business" GBAtemp must politick.


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## mechadylan (Mar 20, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> And another thing. I don't agree with the whole "you only have the license to use a music CD or a DVD" principle. If I spend hard-earned cash on music or a movie, *I should be able to make personal backups for it, *but at the same time, I refuse to give backups to anyone else. Same with making ISO images of games I purchase. If GBA Temp is so hellbent on having zero tolerance for piracy, why then does it promote programs like Dios Mios (lite), which *gasp* enables people to back up games into ISO images, which according to US copyright law, is illegal?


In most cases, you can make personal backups of CDs.  The problem here isn't piracy, as much as it is bypassing of DRM measures on media.  Certain media is exempt from this.


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## the_randomizer (Mar 20, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Not trying to sway you either way. You just seemed confused as to what a license was.
> 
> GBAtemp frowns on piracy for self-preservation. If the law didn't care about piracy, neither would GBAtemp. However, to stay "in business" GBAtemp must politick.


 
Fair enough. 



mechadylan said:


> In most cases, you can make personal backups of CDs. The problem here isn't piracy, as much as it is bypassing of DRM measures on media. Certain media is exempt from this.


Well, okay, that makes more sense.


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## Smuff (Mar 20, 2013)

They were wrong about this too.

Oh, and EVERYBODY, and I do mean "everybody" did it.


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## Gahars (Mar 20, 2013)

Smuff said:


> They were wrong about this too.


 
Oh really? Alright, smart guy, When was the last time you used a cassette tape?

Thought so. Take your Myth-conceptions elsewhere, pirate scum.


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## Smuff (Mar 20, 2013)

Gahars said:


> Oh really? Alright, smart guy, When was the last time you used a cassette tape?
> 
> Thought so. Take your Myth-conceptions elsewhere, pirate scum.


 
Back in the 90s when we were apparantly killing music. Bullshit.

But I think I missed your point ? I don't get what it is you're trying to say there ?

Incidentally, it wasn't called "piracy" in those days either.


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## Gahars (Mar 20, 2013)

Smuff said:


> Back in the 90s when we were apparantly killing music. Bullshit.
> 
> But I think I missed your point ? I don't get what it is you're trying to say there ?
> 
> Incidentally, it wasn't called "piracy" in those days either.


 
Apparently? The 1990s was the decade that saw the death of Freddy Mercury, the suicide of Kurt Cobain, and the release of the Macarena.

They were right. Pirates were just too selfish to listen.

(And no, it wasn't called piracy, because it's not piracy - it's murder)


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## Smuff (Mar 20, 2013)

Gahars said:


> Apparently? The 1990s was the decade that saw the death of Freddy Mercury, the suicide of Kurt Cobain, and the release of the Macarena.
> 
> They were right. Pirates were just too selfish to listen.
> 
> (And no, it wasn't called piracy, because it's not piracy - it's murder)


 
You got me. I confess. It was me.
Go easy on me - I was put up to it by Casey Kasem and Jonathon King as part of their plot to gain control of Herbalife.

EDIT

As they say in China,

我的肛門包圍與痔瘡癢，像一個混蛋

Yeah. THAT.


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## xwatchmanx (Mar 20, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> And another thing. I don't agree with the whole "you only have the license to use a music CD or a DVD" principle. If I spend hard-earned cash on music or a movie, I should be able to make personal backups for it, but at the same time, I refuse to give backups to anyone else. Same with making ISO images of games I purchase. If GBA Temp is so hellbent on having zero tolerance for piracy, why then does it promote programs like Dios Mios (lite), which *gasp* enables people to back up games into ISO images, which according to US copyright law, is illegal?


Because GBAtemp has zero tolerance for piracy, not zero tolerance for illegal activity. There's a difference. Making your own backup may be illegal, but I don't think it's piracy.


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## the_randomizer (Mar 20, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Because GBAtemp has zero tolerance for piracy, not zero tolerance for illegal activity. There's a difference. Making your own backup may be illegal, but I don't think it's piracy.


 
Exactly, as a site, piracy is frowned upon, but many members admit to doing it. As for backing up ISO images from your movies/games, it's not piracy, but rather the illegality comes from copyright/counterfeit protection circumventing. The FBI, RIAA, etc isn't going to bust down your door for backing up music you bought.


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## LDAsh (Mar 21, 2013)

> ...the point is that many people actively have to try and spot the (slight) difference...





> Most people are completely incapable of hearing a difference...





> I've never heard anyone (outside of audiophile magazines) complain about quality.


I used to think this way too, for quite a while, but now it's 2013 and eeeeeveryone want to be savvy. Some of us strain more than others to be savvy while others can't stuff their fingers into their ears deep enough to block it out in an attempt at some sanity.

Surely we've all experienced the doofus in the $8k car with the $12k sound system and the 128kbps MP3s blasting out of it at 3am. I stand by my original point of the cymbals sounding like soggy garbage bags sloshing about after being whacked with a dead animal and no sound system in the world is ever going to make that better for him.  He probably didn't pirate anything though, likely you'll hear the term 'iTunes' in his reply at which point I'd likely suggest that he actually does begin to pirate music.

All this and I'm hardly an 'audiophile'.


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## xist (Mar 21, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> I used to think this way too, for quite a while, but now it's 2013 and eeeeeveryone want to be savvy. Some of us strain more than others to be savvy while others can't stuff their fingers into their ears deep enough to block it out in an attempt at some sanity.


 
I spent £200 on a decent set of headphones and then more money again on a DAC and i'll stand by a good codec being able to encode cymbal crash just fine. Tell you what, which songs in 320CBR on a recent LAME codec demonstrate those soggy sounding cymbals? Because the artefacting that usually occurs is pre-echo on cymbal crash and unless you know what it is you probably won't notice it, and if you can notice it in 320 then either you're imagining it, you're _reaaaaaaaaaaally_ looking for it or it's there and it's a difficult song to encode. And bear in mind LAME and MP3 is surpassed by other codecs in today's encoding choices so you're limiting your options if you won't accept any lossy bar MP3.

It's not really relevant here (although i'm sure others would probably interested in the songs you notice the compression on) but i don't think music "piracy" encouraging sales is down to compression issues. I think it's down to people wanting to own something they enjoy. I also think that it could transfer to gaming if prices were a bit lower and they did away with the Platinum/Greatest Hits rebranding. There's just no data on gaming piracy encouraging sales that matches the music data.


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## narutofan777 (Mar 21, 2013)

*Piracy causes job loss. *

*if I play snes games on a web browser right now, some1 in nintendo is losing their jobs?*

if I listen to music on youtube free, some1 is losing money? I have never bought a song or album in my life. all I do is go to youtube and listen to songs. for every song out there, its on youtube.

I always go to wikipedia and check various albums and they always have some cd with extra songs for japan and other stuff. *so for the people who do buy some cd's sometimes, they may end up missing out on those extra songs unless they go to itunes or youtube. and sometimes they have itune exclusive songs as well which is why its a dumb idea to buy a cd if your not getting the full thang. *

"Japanese release" "japanese bonus tracks"

wtf is up with japan getting the best hidden tracks from USA albums?


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## 2ndApex (Mar 21, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> And another thing. I don't agree with the whole "you only have the license to use a music CD or a DVD" principle. If I spend hard-earned cash on music or a movie, I should be able to make personal backups for it, but at the same time, I refuse to give backups to anyone else. Same with making ISO images of games I purchase. If GBA Temp is so hellbent on having zero tolerance for piracy, why then does it promote programs like Dios Mios (lite), which *gasp* enables people to back up games into ISO images, which according to US copyright law, is illegal?


 
It's less of a "we think all forms of piracy are killing the industry and will have no part in it" and more of a "let's not get shut down because some dingus needed help finding Pokemon roms".

Which makes sense because there's already a few other very good sites for finding Roms/Iso (*nohint*) and GBATemp doesn't need to risk it's well established Modding/Homebrew community to become one again.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 21, 2013)

xist said:


> -snip-.


Just to add, although people are satisfied with today's quality of music I don't think they wouldn't like some improve. It's just like HD, before it became popular everyone was satisfied with lower resolution videos and I might add that in the beginning many people saw no difference because they didn't know what to expect (because looking if the pixels are smaller is not very intuictive for everyone). But once people got used to it, they realized how much better HD videos really are. To be fair I also noticed something wrong with cymbals sound in some low quality music but I'm a musician (kind of)


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## LDAsh (Mar 21, 2013)

If I'm forced to read the WHOLE THING, something known as 'context' might get in my way, so let's quickly scan some comment, pick out a couple of keywords, then continue on arguing semantics for the very sake of argument, because after all this IS the internet...





Goodnight nurse.


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## xist (Mar 21, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> If I'm forced to read the WHOLE THING, something known as 'context' might get in my way, so let's quickly scan some comment, pick out a couple of keywords, then continue on arguing semantics for the very sake of argument, because after all this IS the internet...
> 
> Goodnight nurse.


 
Nice...so when asked for an example you bail out of the discussion by posting a picture of the Mayor of London? They must be some pretty bad sounding cymbals if they won't even show up to back up your argument...


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## Mantis41 (Mar 21, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> I think music is different purely because even at 320kbps the compression makes it sound pukey and horrible. Bigger and better speakers only amplifies the compression, I hear it all the time. It took a decade or so but people finally wake up to hear the sloshy cymbals that sound more like someone hitting a soggy garbage bag than what a clean smash of the cymbal should actually sound like.


The recording on the original can be so sloppy now days it's hard to tell the difference. Compilations tend to be even worse. Most kids these days don't seem to give a toss about sound quality and are quite happy to listen to music jangling out of a mobile at full volume. I have argued with work colleagues about stereo separation and been met mostly with blank looks.

Edit: I picked up this post on about page 3. After further reading I thought I would add a bit more. If you have a good quality sound system that has been properly set up for the room or a very-very good set of head phones, on a good recording you will be able to close you eyes and pin point the exact location of every instrument and sound as it was recorded.

A good analogy is an expensive steak and veg served at fancy restaurant. All of it is separated and presented lovely on a posh plate with an artistic drizzle of sauce. Now take those same ingredients throw it at the floor scoop it up and slap it back down on a cheap plate. It still has exactly the same ingredients of mostly the same quality however it is now all mashed together has some floor grit and hair thrown in and is served like a dogs dinner on a cheap plate. That is basically what you are consuming with cheap MP3 compression.


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## BORTZ (Mar 21, 2013)

Im glad that this can all be contained into one single thread from now on, unless i decide to pirate this thread.


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## xwatchmanx (Mar 21, 2013)

Mantis41 said:


> The recording on the original can be so sloppy now days it's hard to tell the difference. Compilations tend to be even worse. Most kids these days don't seem to give a toss about sound quality and are quite happy to listen to music jangling out of a mobile at full volume. I have argued with work colleagues about stereo separation and been met mostly with blank looks.
> 
> Edit: I picked up this post on about page 3. After further reading I thought I would add a bit more. If you have a good quality sound system that has been properly set up for the room or a very-very good set of head phones, on a good recording you will be able to close you eyes and pin point the exact location of every instrument and sound as it was recorded.
> 
> A good analogy is an expensive steak and veg served at fancy restaurant. All of it is separated and presented lovely on a posh plate with an artistic drizzle of sauce. Now take those same ingredients throw it at the floor scoop it up and slap it back down on a cheap plate. It still has exactly the same ingredients of mostly the same quality however it is now all mashed together has some floor grit and hair thrown in and is served like a dogs dinner on a cheap plate. That is basically what you are consuming with cheap MP3 compression.


Kids who walk around with music blasting out of mobile speakers always seriously annoy me. Not only do I NOT want to hear their awful music in the background (get a pair of headphones!), but the music quality sounds godawful on those speakers.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 21, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Kids who walk around with music blasting out of mobile speakers always seriously annoy me. Not only do I NOT want to hear their awful music in the background (get a pair of headphones!), but the music quality sounds godawful on those speakers.


It is worst when you're on a 6 hour bus trip and some dude start to listen to loud carioca funk (it is a brazilian music genre with explicit sexual content in its lyris, yeah, not proud of it as a brazilian...)


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## Qtis (Mar 21, 2013)

narutofan777 said:


> *Piracy causes job loss.*
> *if I play snes games on a web browser right now, some1 in nintendo is losing their jobs?*


Technically you could be paying Nintendo for the game and thus making it possible for Nintendo to hire more people to work on games. So in a way, yes. You can make someone lose their job.



> if I listen to music on youtube free, some1 is losing money? I have never bought a song or album in my life. all I do is go to youtube and listen to songs. for every song out there, its on youtube.


Youtube pays for the music on there. It's another source of revenue for labels. You're still making money for both Google via ads and the labels via Google's royalties.



> I always go to wikipedia and check various albums and they always have some cd with extra songs for japan and other stuff. *so for the people who do buy some cd's sometimes, they may end up missing out on those extra songs unless they go to itunes or youtube. and sometimes they have itune exclusive songs as well which is why its a dumb idea to buy a cd if your not getting the full thang. *
> 
> "Japanese release" "japanese bonus tracks"
> 
> wtf is up with japan getting the best hidden tracks from USA albums?


Japanese people want something special for their stuff. Sure it bites not to have the special stuff, but in the tech oriented Japan, there is so much options available that you have to try to promote yourself in every way possible.


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## stanleyopar2000 (Mar 21, 2013)

that kongnutz guy had a leaked copy of NSBM Wii...AND bragged about it. I would have been surprised if he DIDN'T get caught.


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## Rydian (Mar 21, 2013)

Qtis said:


> Technically you could be paying Nintendo for the game and thus making it possible for Nintendo to hire more people to work on games. So in a way, yes. You can make someone lose their job.


I want this chick to blow me, but she won't.

brb suing her for a "lost blowjob".


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## xist (Mar 21, 2013)

Qtis said:


> Technically you could be paying Nintendo for the game and thus making it possible for Nintendo to hire more people to work on games. So in a way, yes. You can make someone lose their job.


 
To expound on Rydian, if a job hasn't been created yet then it's impossible for someone to lose it.


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## Mantis41 (Mar 21, 2013)

Rydian said:


> I want this chick to blow me, but she won't.
> 
> brb suing her for a "lost blowjob".


Would masturbating instead be considered piracy?


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## Rydian (Mar 21, 2013)

Mantis41 said:


> Would masturbating instead be considered piracy?


If prostitution was legal, then uh...

Wait that's getting too close to just pirating porn as it is.


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## Mantis41 (Mar 21, 2013)

Mantis41 said:


> Would masturbating instead be considered piracy?
> 
> 
> Rydian said:
> ...


It kind of is piracy though. Your getting the same result with your own um.... media and it doesn't come with the box!


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## xist (Mar 21, 2013)

Mantis41 said:


> Would masturbating instead be considered piracy?


 
Is it considered lossy or lossless if you use your off-hand?


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## xwatchmanx (Mar 21, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> It is worst when you're on a 6 hour bus trip and some dude start to listen to loud carioca funk (it is a brazilian music genre with explicit sexual content in its lyris, yeah, not proud of it as a brazilian...)


Ugh, even I've never dealt with that on a bus ride. Mostly it was kids walking around college campus and through halls with music blasting on their phones...

Did the lyrics in the music talk about.... getting a Brazilian wax?


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## MegaBassBX (Mar 21, 2013)

I knew that my country is in the list , I download torrent all my life like 2004 till now and nothing happen to me at all, I wounder why most of the stuff I download are games movies and music and books too.


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## Arm73 (Mar 21, 2013)

Rydian said:


> If prostitution was legal, then uh...
> 
> Wait that's getting too close to just pirating porn as it is.


Prostitution is legal in many countries, here too.
So you see, it's all relative.


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## XDel (Mar 21, 2013)

I heard that if you pirate too much that you will go blind.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 21, 2013)

Much as I would love to partake in a round of laugh at the audiophool I will forgo it for the time being.



RodrigoDavy said:


> It's just like HD, before it became popular everyone was satisfied with lower resolution videos and I might add that in the beginning many people saw no difference because they didn't know what to expect (because looking if the pixels are smaller is not very intuictive for everyone). But once people got used to it, they realized how much better HD videos really are.



I would have to argue otherwise and also mention that the shift from actually reduced resolution and Xvid used right at the point of breaking down to H264 used in a very comfortable range at what was supposed to be the previous full resolution might have helped matters along there.


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## Qtis (Mar 21, 2013)

xist said:


> To expound on Rydian, if a job hasn't been created yet then it's impossible for someone to lose it.


Okay I guess we could go along the route of "The job may never be created". I'm well aware of the fact that piracy doesn't kill jobs straight, but it's not unheard of for a game not to sell well, but still people want to play it (ie. pirate it). The main problem I see with piracy is that in some places (Finland for example) there is a sort of tax on all storage medium for the sake of letting home copying be legal for personal use. Still it's illegal to download a movie or game and burn the DVD. Even though the HDD and blank DVD-R both have a (pretty large) percent  of the price as the said tax.

Regardless, I'm more than happy with ripping stuff to a HDD and using USB/HDD Loaders when possible.


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## xist (Mar 21, 2013)

Qtis said:


> The main problem I see with piracy is that in some places (Finland for example) there is a sort of tax on all storage medium for the sake of letting home copying be legal for personal use. Still it's illegal to download a movie or game and burn the DVD. Even though the HDD and blank DVD-R both have a (pretty large) percent of the price as the said tax.


 
That's part of the future of dealing with the cost of "piracy" in my opinion.


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## mechadylan (Mar 21, 2013)

BortzANATOR said:


> Im glad that this can all be contained into one single thread from now on, unless i decide to pirate this thread.


I'm glad that anytime the dreaded "p" word pops up now, we can simply refer them to this thread.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 21, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Did the lyrics in the music talk about.... getting a Brazilian wax?


This would be considered too light for carioca funk standards.  

There is one song that goes like this "Eu vou na festa da Paula. Pau lá dentro, pau lá fora"

This one is hard to translate... "Eu vou na festa da Paula" means "I am going to Paula's party" "Paula" is a girl's name and "Pau" is a slang for dick so when you say "Pau lá" it sounds just like Paula. The part "Pau lá dentro, pau lá fora" means "Dick in, dick out" is obviously a reference to penetration but it can also mean "Paula in, Paula out". This is one of the more "family-friendly" funks here.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 21, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> This would be considered too light for carioca funk standards.
> 
> There is one song that goes like this "Eu vou na festa da Paula. Pau lá dentro, pau lá fora"
> 
> This one is hard to translate... "Eu vou na festa da Paula" means "I am going to Paula's party" "Paula" is a girl's name and "Pau" is a slang for dick so when you say "Pau lá" it sounds just like Paula. The part "Pau lá dentro, pau lá fora" means "Dick in, dick out" is obviously a reference to penetration but it can also mean "Paula in, Paula out". This is one of the more "family-friendly" funks here.



That sounds more like top flight wordplay than out and out crude or crude for the sake of being crude and respectable as a result, though I must admit I am also a fan of songs that make prudish types go purple in embarrassment.


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## xist (Mar 21, 2013)

FAST6191...I can't help but be reminded of the Federation Against Software Theft whenever i see your username.


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## MegaBassBX (Mar 22, 2013)

So what do I do now stop piracy


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## Tattorack (Mar 22, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> I could go on and on but I will just say - when you pirate games you hurt small independent developers whom you mistakenly identify as these same 'faceless corporations', and you help welcome more trend-mongering parasites who spew more bland and shallow rubbish onto the market that is empty of originality, both in terms of gameplay and concept, perpetuating the marketing feedback and this all only makes things worse. It's a downward spiral.
> 
> Don't believe me? Just take a look! Support the developers who deserve to be supported, otherwise look outside and see them collecting your garbage to make a living. Make the distinction between publishers and developers, then open your eyes finally, with just a little maturity and intelligence, it should be clear as day.


 

I'm inclined to disagree;
The developers are already payed the small amount that they earned for making the game by the publishers.
Its not the dev. team losing the money, it are the publishers (who have already loads of money to speak of) that can't buy their new Mercedis Benz, or their next holidy to Monaco.
Publishers already start calling it a distaster if they lose as much as €1000, wich is only a fraction of the amount they really have (an amount the developers only see small amount of).
"Pirating" doesn't hurt the original creator, just the squeezer.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 22, 2013)

Re my name- I would be lying if I said I had not run into it myself.


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## LDAsh (Mar 23, 2013)

tattorack said:
			
		

> Its not the dev. team losing the money, it are the publishers (who have already loads of money to speak of) that can't buy their new Mercedis Benz, or their next holidy to Monaco.


You've basically said what I already said in my original wall of text, but failed to realise (fully read) how it goes around in a vicious cycle, where it forces publishers to only publish contrived games from more established developers (teams usually constructed by the publishers themselves) with marketing research and sales figures to back them up, shoving out small indepentent developers who are more likely to create innovative genre-carvers. There's only so many times I can repeat myself or agrue semantics and obscure microscopics.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 23, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> You've basically said what I already said in my original wall of text, but failed to realise (fully read) how it goes around in a vicious cycle, where it forces publishers to only publish contrived games from more established developers (teams usually constructed by the publishers themselves) with marketing research and sales figures to back them up, shoving out small indepentent developers who are more likely to create innovative genre-carvers. There's only so many times I can repeat myself or agrue semantics and obscure microscopics.


What publisher do with developers doesn't have anything to do with people pirating stuff. Even when piracy wasn't such a big issue, developers were always in the hand of publisher one way or another. Lack of creativity isn't something exclusive to videogames, it happens with music, movies, computers, cell phones. The bitter truth is, while consumers claims to like innovation they prefer watching the cliche super hero based movies than to try watching something new. When you go to the movies, do you watch that small independent work or do you watch a Warner Bros/Columbia/Disney/Fox movie?

Getting back to gaming, I even go as far as to say that when I was a kid console had much more different choices of games, you could either buy a snes or a mega drive, a playstation, a nintendo 64 or a saturn and find all kind of fun and different games in those system. Nowadays you have to choose either buying a Wii/Wii U for nintendo games + casual games, Xbox 360 for FPS and the PS3 for RPG and also some FPS, many people in this forum even go as far as buying more than one console from the same generation because one console alone can't satisfy their needs... That's how bad the video game industry is nowadays.

Piracy have existed since the 80s with floppy disks and later CDs, are you really going to claim that it's affecting publisher's decisions just now?


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## Densetsu (Mar 23, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> If GBA Temp is so hellbent on having zero tolerance for piracy...





the_randomizer said:


> ...and yet GBA temp frowns upon piracy and/or the circumvention of AP measures.





xwatchmanx said:


> Because GBAtemp has zero tolerance for piracy...


Quite the contrary; GBAtemp is _all about_ piracy. First and foremost it's a forum for sharing concepts, ideas, knowledge and information about ripping, copying, patching and hacking for the purpose of *ahem* playing free games on your consoles. The only thing GBAtemp _doesn't_ allow is direct links or references to places where you can download _copyrighted_ files like ROMs or ISOs.

A group of individuals can sit around and talk about illicit drugs, including how to make them, how to administer them, how to acquire and sell them, and they aren't breaking any laws because they're just sharing knowledge. But once they are in possession of illegal substances, they are breaking the law.

Having copyrighted files--or links to them--on this forum is like being in possession of said drugs. One of the moderators' jobs (as I see it) is merely to flush them down the toilet, _not_ to oppress any kind of piracy. It's just to protect this website from being taken down. Simple as. And we have _never_ frowned upon the circumvention of AP measures. ROM patches come in two broad categories: [1] game alteration (translations/sprite hacks, etc.) and [2] AP circumvention. And guess what? We allow _both_ types on this forum. I don't think any staff here would ever tell you that we have zero tolerance for piracy. Most of us currently pirate or have pirated in the past, myself included.

And I think some people might miss the point of this thread. It's not meant to judge anyone or sway them in any direction for or against piracy. It's just a reference. The next time some know-it-all jackass spews forth verbal diarrhea in the pretense of legal "expertise," simply refer them to the first post of this discussion so that they might be educated. It just clears up some misconceptions about piracy; nothing more, nothing less.


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## Smuff (Mar 23, 2013)

Well, I'm convinced. Help me, GBATemp - Help me to avoid this "piracy" thing in all its various guises, I beseech thee!


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## mightymuffy (Mar 23, 2013)

mechadylan said:


> I'm glad that anytime the dreaded "p" word pops up now, we can simply refer them to this thread.


I'm gutted that if the bobbies/police/whatever actually do come knocking on my door sometime in the future, and I pull the "I'm too stupid to know it's wrong" argument, they can simply refer me to this thread. Get it off lol!


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## xist (Mar 23, 2013)

LDAsh said:


> There's only so many times I can repeat myself or agrue semantics and obscure microscopics.


 
Have you remembered some examples of those soggy cardboard sounding cymbals yet? Because hit and running on topics that favour your observations doesn't give credence to your views.

Dev's are impacted because if a (non 1st party) studio's game sells 4 games then they're highly unlikely to score repeat business, or will be able to demand far less for their next games. It also pushes the market towards a more homogenous "safer" style of game - cheaper development costs, faster turnaround with established tools and a more casual market in place.


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## Disorarara (Mar 23, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Meh. That's not going to curtail piracy, neither will DRM. People will do what they do and it's not my problem. Same with backing up games, Dios Mios allows people to rip their games to their HDD, and yet GBA temp frowns upon piracy and/or the circumvention of AP measures.



Dios Mios can't rip backups. It allows you to run backups from HDD or SD which isn't illegal.


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## the_randomizer (Mar 23, 2013)

Densetsu said:


> Quite the contrary; GBAtemp is _all about_ piracy. First and foremost it's a forum for sharing concepts, ideas, knowledge and information about ripping, copying, patching and hacking for the purpose of *ahem* playing free games on your consoles. The only thing GBAtemp_doesn't_ allow is direct links or references to places where you can download _copyrighted_ files like ROMs or ISOs.
> 
> A group of individuals can sit around and talk about illicit drugs, including how to make them, how to administer them, how to acquire and sell them, and they aren't breaking any laws because they're just sharing knowledge. But once they are in possession of illegal substances, they are breaking the law.
> 
> ...


Well, all right I will, and yes, I confess that I have pirated as well (why do you think I use RetroArch Wii?) Be a reference or not, I rip Wii games to my HDD for archival purposes only, I refuse to buy a new copy of the disc should it get scratched. 




Disorarara said:


> Dios Mios can't rip backups. It allows you to run backups from HDD or SD which isn't illegal.


 
Not Dios Mios (oops), I meant CFG USB Loader. That rips games right there, which also means anti-counterfeit protection is circumvented. Not that I care anyway. I'd rather have a binary copy of my game than to have to repurchase it.


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## mechadylan (Mar 23, 2013)

mightymuffy said:


> I'm gutted that if the bobbies/police/whatever actually do come knocking on my door sometime in the future, and I pull the "I'm too stupid to know it's wrong" argument, they can simply refer me to this thread. Get it off lol!


LOL!  U wot m8?


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## Rydian (Mar 24, 2013)

Fixed a typo in number 1, and re-worded 8 a little to note that it's mainly referring to games and such, since when dealing with consoles and handhelds, people rarely, if ever, bother about distributing the software contained on them.


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## Kwartel (Mar 25, 2013)

In The Netherlands, it IS legal to download music, videos and other digital or physical files except software. This is because of the private copying law we have. This means we can freely make copies of things if it stays for personal use. This makes downloading legal in our country (except for software/games). The "losses" because of this law is compromised by the private copying levy there is on data carriers. The money that get raised with those fees gets divided between the organisations who handle the payment of artists.

Note: Uploading copyright protected content is illegal. Always.

At the moment the fees are the following:

Cd-r - €0.03
DVD - €0.03
External HDD - €1.00
Audio-/videoplayer (≤ 2 GB) - €1.00
Audio-/videoplayer (> 2 GB) - €2.00
HDD-recorder/setupbox (≤ 160 GB) - €2.50
HDD-recorder/setupbox (> 160 GB) - €5.00
Phone with musicplayer/smartphone (< 16 GB) - €2.50
Phone with musicplayer/smartphone (≥ 16 GB) - €5.00
Tablet (≤ 8 GB) - €2.50
Tablet (> 8 GB) - €5.00
Pc/laptop - €5.00

Sources (Dutch): Source 1 Source 2

If you want to know more about private copying law, you can find more information on this Dutch website, which explains everything in detail, but still in layman's terms: link


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## Rydian (Mar 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> [*]*That's just US law, copyright stuff doesn't apply to me in another country so I can pirate all I want.*
> While I'm using US laws and regulations primarily since it's a main concern of this forum, this is another falsehood.  The WIPO/Berne Convention is a worldwide agreement, if your country is in the member list (there's over 100 countries there, so you most likely are) then your country recognizes the copyrights of other countries and has it's own laws in place to deal with violations.  Look at the above example, which took place in Australia.
> 
> 
> [/list]


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## Kwartel (Mar 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


>


I didn't say anything. :') I'll edit the post, so you can link to it in the FP maybe for reference for the Dutch. We're also quite represented over here.


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## Rydian (Mar 25, 2013)

kwartel said:


> We're also quite represented over here.


Yar.  The WIPO/Berne links contain the laws and such, I just can't read them so I didn't do any quoting. XD


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## Kwartel (Mar 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yar. The WIPO/Berne links contain the laws and such, I just can't read them so I didn't do any quoting. XD


Yeah, well as far as I know, only The Netherlands do it this way, but you could just link to my post in the last paragraph.


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## Rydian (Mar 25, 2013)

Eh, there's well over 100 countries in the thing total, I don't want to be too redundant.


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## Kwartel (Mar 25, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Eh, there's well over 100 countries in the thing total, I don't want to be too redundant.


Hmmm.. That's true, but you could also make a spoiler where you link to posts in this threat about other countries. While the US is greatly represented, it's not even nearly the only country represented here. Besides, Dutch law is a special little snowflake.


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## KingBlank (Mar 25, 2013)

I used to pirate stuff regularly (I'm from New Zealand)
But recently I just cant be bothered half the time 

I think piracy has as many pro's for game publishers as it does cons.
Just buy indie games please, they are the best anyway


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## Kwartel (Mar 25, 2013)

KingBlank said:


> I used to pirate stuff regularly (I'm from New Zealand)
> But recently I just cant be bothered half the time
> 
> I think piracy has as many pro's for game publishers as it does cons.
> Just buy indie games please, they are the best anyway


I can't be really bothered too. That's the best way to stop piracy anyway. Make legit product a lot easier with things like Steam and Spotify~


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## mechadylan (Mar 26, 2013)

In 1993, Panasonic released the first CD based home gaming console (before the PS1.)  Although I have no corroborating evidence, it is widely-accepted that Panasonic actually "encouraged" software purchasers to make back-up copies of their games as they would not be provided with replacement discs if they ever became damaged or broken.  The console in question (3DO) was discontinued three years later before DRM, DMCA, etc.

tl;dr  A 3DO will play burnt CDs, is it wrong?


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## Arm73 (Mar 26, 2013)

kwartel said:


> I can't be really bothered too. That's the best way to stop piracy anyway. Make legit product a lot easier with things like Steam and Spotify~


Actually I think piracy it's gotten ridiculously easy too....
I used to download games every once in a while for my PC a couple of years ago, but my PC wasn't that great at the time ( underpowered GPU, slow internet etc.) and it was a real hassle to get most games to work.
First huge downloads ( at the time ) from badly seeded torrents, then 3rd party applications to mount / burn images, then find the working crack and copy over to the right folder....problems with updates etc...viruses.....well, you get the picture.
It really made me wish to get a legitimate copy and get on with it !

I played Wii games in the meantime, and just recently got me a fairly decent gaming laptop.
In short, I have now a 25 Mbps connection, a decent GPU, and to my surprise, not only torrent are much better seeded ( seems like the others have better internet as well these days  ) but games usually come repacked, with just an installer included that does all the work for you !
Some installers even check for updates before launching !

I mean, doesn't get any easier then that ??
Sure I'd like to support developers and publishers, but give me some good damn reason not to pirate !


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## Kwartel (Mar 26, 2013)

Arm73 said:


> Actually I think piracy it's gotten ridiculously easy too....
> I used to download games every once in a while for my PC a couple of years ago, but my PC wasn't that great at the time ( underpowered GPU, slow internet etc.) and it was a real hassle to get most games to work.
> First huge downloads ( at the time ) from badly seeded torrents, then 3rd party applications to mount / burn images, then find the working crack and copy over to the right folder....problems with updates etc...viruses.....well, you get the picture.
> It really made me wish to get a legitimate copy and get on with it !
> ...


The damn good reason is that you support the devs and publishers?

Oh and Steam is even easier than that. You buy the game, press download and you will get a notification when the game is ready to play.


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## mechadylan (Mar 26, 2013)

Spoiler



[1.11] Can I play CDR backups of 3DO games on my Panasonic/Goldstar 3DO? A: Yes. Most units have no problems reading games copied to a CDR. Some people have complained that their units will not run CDRs though. This is likely caused by 1. Low quality CDR media, 2. Older or bargain basement CDR recoders, 3. A bad burn, 4. Possible laser alignment issues from general wear and tear on the 3DO itself. If you wish to backup your games to preserve the original disk, you should 1. Use good quality CDR media, 2. Avoid disk to disk copying(Copy the game to your harddrive first.) 3. Burn at a slower speed (4x or 2x are reccomended.





Spoiler






Spoiler



Does anyone else find it odd that back when "burning/ripping software" was expensive, it wasn't "piracy?"
Does anyone else see the direct correlation between user cost and "legality?"


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## Rydian (Mar 26, 2013)

Why yes, it is all about the money.


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## mechadylan (Mar 26, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Why yes, it is all about the money.


I sincerely hope that this was in jest.  What's the point in creating a thread about the legality of pirating if you are willing to admit 7 pages later that $$$ can change it?!?!


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## Rydian (Mar 26, 2013)

mechadylan said:


> I sincerely hope that this was in jest.  What's the point in creating a thread about the legality of pirating if you are willing to admit 7 pages later that $$$ can change it?!?!


What?  No.  I'm saying that whether something is illegal or not even if there's no loss comes down to money.  If large companies think they would make money by getting something outlawed, they're going to do it.


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## KingBlank (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, if large company's make a $90 single player game then its obviously going to be pirated more than a $20 single player game.
unless of course they do a Sim City, oh wait, that got cracked too.


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## mechadylan (Mar 26, 2013)

Rydian said:


> What? No. I'm saying that whether something is illegal or not even if there's no loss comes down to money. * If large companies think they would make money by getting something outlawed, they're going to do it.*


So then why not outlaw "borrowing" a game, "renting" a game or "Gamefly"accounts?  Your argument is getting worse?!?!?


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## Rydian (Mar 26, 2013)

mechadylan said:


> So then why not outlaw "borrowing" a game


Technically you're not supposed to, as the license you get is non-transferrable, but they can't stop you and it'd cost them more money than it would "save" to try to enforce it, and that's a net loss.

On that subject, large companies don't like used games, however, which is why there's been steps taken by them to make used game sales not work out properly, such as the inability to delete saved games on some 3DS games.
http://www.3dsbuzz.com/you-can’t-delete-your-resident-evil-the-mercenaries-3d-save-data/



mechadylan said:


> , "renting" a game or "Gamefly"accounts?


Those are legal because they have the proper licenses, _and they get a cut of that money too_, a net profit.



mechadylan said:


> Your argument is getting worse?!?!?


No, you're just misinformed.  *Legality and morals are not the same thing, and they don't always align*.


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## Arm73 (Mar 27, 2013)

Definitely used games are more of a threat to the industry compared to piracy IMO.
Sure, there are people who rely on selling their newish games in order to buy the latest games, therefore in turn, being able to sell your games , provides currency to buy more new games.
On the other hand, there are a lot more people who buy ONLY used games.
I know 'cause I was one of them.
Piracy doesn't affect industry in a big way as we are led to believe because people who pirate wouldn't buy new games to begin with.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 27, 2013)

Arm73 said:


> Definitely used games are more of a threat to the industry compared to piracy IMO.
> [reasonable line in backing logic]



Can you really make that claim? Pending a true ruling on the matter (which given various laws and the lack of one thus far) blaming used games for anything seems roughly equivalent to blaming the magic games buying fairy for skipping out on buying a million copies of your game.
To go further game disc/carts at least are seen to have an inherent value and the ability to be resold which has existed basically since forever and saying if it didn't exist is not even a great thought exercise.


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## Arm73 (Mar 27, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Can you really make that claim? Pending a true ruling on the matter (which given various laws and the lack of one thus far) blaming used games for anything seems roughly equivalent to blaming the magic games buying fairy for skipping out on buying a million copies of your game.
> To go further game disc/carts at least are seen to have an inherent value and the ability to be resold which has existed basically since forever and saying if it didn't exist is not even a great thought exercise.


 
I can claim, that I ( that is Me ) wouldn't buy all the games I pirate if I couldn't pirate them.
And if I couldn't pirate them ( that is me ) , I would buy them used, for cheaper, just to see what they play like.

I can claim that if I couldn't get them used, I'd have to buy at least a few new games every once in a while and maybe developers would make a profit off me 
Therefore, _in my case_ ( and wouldn't logic dictate that I'm not the only one ? ), the true enemy of new games sales are used game sales.


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## DS1 (Mar 27, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Can you really make that claim? Pending a true ruling on the matter (which given various laws and the lack of one thus far) blaming used games for anything seems roughly equivalent to blaming the magic games buying fairy for skipping out on buying a million copies of your game.
> To go further game disc/carts at least are seen to have an inherent value and the ability to be resold which has existed basically since forever and saying if it didn't exist is not even a great thought exercise.


 
I do not buy new games*. Stores restock (place new orders) based on sales of new games, not on used games. Therefore the developers (or rather the publishers, which directly influence the developers) do not see any profit from me. The best they can do is make a good sequel, that maybe I will buy new.

To the actual games industry (unless you count GameStop as part of the industry, in which case, what's wrong with you?), I am no better than someone who downloaded the game. I am your proverbial magic fairy, and yes, there are THOUSANDS of us, just waiting for some idiot to buy a game new, sell it to GS for $4, and then buy it ourselves for <$20.

Also, what does inherent value have to do with anything? A sold digital copy (which, following your logic, doesn't exist) makes more for the publishers/developers than a used physical copy bought at the same time (say, after the game's print run is over).

*I have bought three new games, but in general, I only buy used.

Most publishers would be jumping for joy if the used games market disappeared overnight. Profit would skyrocket, though maybe not until after they revalued their products... I know I would pretty much quit gaming altogether, but for a few $4 downloads from GOG.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry that was not where I was heading Arm73.

Certainly if you cut off a supply route you either use an alternative one or do without. However as used games have effectively always been around/available in a manner not entirely dissimilar to their present incarnation (if you have it you can sell it, there are companies that will buy things off you and use it for credit) and are entirely legitimate saying that used sales have an effect worth noting just seems like a massive and stupid leap of logic.

@DS1.
First gamestop are surely part of the industry- they handle preorders (which is not something that just sits entirely in their bank accounts), a lot of promotion, they are a specialised distribution arm to a specialised field* and I am sure I can probably tack on more to that list. *Companies within companies exist with distribution and transport often being a big part of it- the UK's dominant telco also has a pretty substantial fleet/transport operation for instance ( http://www.btfleet.com/home.aspx ). To that end I could possibly make the case that gamestop is tolerated as a partially self funding distribution arm.
Equally I find it difficult to imagine someone somewhere in gamestop's HQ/strategy wing has not lined up sales of their second hand stock and adjusted a an order number for a sequel, gameplay style or some such based upon those.

Raw numbers might say you are of no value to a publisher but there is also promotion, online services (nobody playing your multiplayer game.... oh dear. Johnny second hand comes along and you can say you still have numbers online). Similarly with in game ads and other financial things even somewhat more nebulous concepts of marketing that we get to debate.

Inherent value has everything to do with it- if there is not an inherent/retained value to a product that would then mean you are effectively engaged in a long term rental, lease or something other than a transferable ownership of a license, personally paying several times the odds for a game than I might just about any other form of entertainment for something I can not resell does not sit right with me. I agree the digital stuff could make things interesting and yeah I am sure they would prefer it if they got everything from every sale. The trouble is assuming/wishing/wanting second hand sales not to be a thing is somewhat akin to financial planning by means of expecting you will win the jackpot on a lottery (this was what my hypothetical fairy was about)... though that would be worse as theoretically you could still win the lottery.
Equally the option for long tail sales to mean something where traditionally the best they might have got is gold editions/game of the year or subsequent bundles unless they lucked out and made a modder's game is potentially a very interesting field- we are already seeing android/IOS type places make models out of it.

Similarly if I may branch it into other regions I can resell books, DVDs, music and twisting it a bit disposable goods not necessarily built to be repaired.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 27, 2013)

Just to give an alternative point of view. I have always pirated since the PS1 era. When I bought my 3DS it was originally to play pirate DS games, but in the end I started buying legit 3DS games, of course I would not buy all the games that I would pirate in case the 3DS was hacked, but it's been one year and I bought 6 3DS games, a lot of virtual console and eshop titles and some DSiWare titles. Instead of downloading whatever game I thought it was cool, I started buying only what I think it was worth it.

If the 3DS gets hacked I'll probably pirate again though, when you have to save for months to buy a game or wait patiently for an opportunity to buy it in a sale, piracy gets a lot more attractive.


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## urbanman2004 (Mar 27, 2013)

these stories about companies sueing ordinary people over piracy bs gets on my nerves...


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## FAST6191 (Mar 27, 2013)

urbanman2004 said:


> these stories about companies sueing ordinary people over piracy bs gets on my nerves...



Were the cases not resulting in damages way way way out of order with potential losses I might be inclined to disagree somewhat and will disagree on some level of principle- society decided intellectual property is worth something and got around to providing a legal framework for it, in instances those holders of IP have chosen to license it out by various means, breaching the terms of these licenses or failing to have a valid one and using the intellectual property is then considered to be breaking the law, but being civil law in most cases the onus is then on the owner of the IP to do something about it and that takes the form of a civil lawsuit with the aim of reclaiming damages (a.k.a. suing someone that has wronged you).

I have huge issues with many parts of the process, to the point where I would accuse several considerable areas of it to be fundamentally broken, but the underlying theory is sound enough if you can abide the idea of intellectual property (though more importantly society cares for intellectual property and you are subjected to the rules of society).


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## Rydian (Mar 28, 2013)

Like FAST said, the _idea_ of copyright and IP isn't inherently wrong, it's just executed terribly.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 28, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> -Snip-


In the case of USA, many of my professors and some part of the media here agrees that the way the USA deals with intellectual property is fundamentally wrong since they legally consider an IP the same as a physical product when there are several differences between those. Since many IP holders are from the US I can only imagine that these supossedely flawed laws might affect other countries. But I don't remember exactly why they believed this way of treating IP is wrong, but seeing the patent wars and some other episodes involving IP I also think that something is not right.


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## smf (Mar 28, 2013)

DS1 said:


> I am no better than someone who downloaded the game. I am your proverbial magic fairy, and yes, there are THOUSANDS of us, just waiting for some idiot to buy a game new, sell it to GS for $4, and then buy it ourselves for <$20.


 
It's very difficult to quantify, but it's possible that some of the people that bought the game new may not have done if they couldn't trade it in at all. So it might balance out. The developers make only a small amount on each sale though. The majority goes to the store and the distributor. The store normally double their money on the second hand games as well.



RodrigoDavy said:


> In the case of USA, many of my professors and some part of the media here agrees that the way the USA deals with intellectual property is fundamentally wrong since they legally consider an IP the same as a physical product when there are several differences between those.


 
They are different, however in terms of stealing the IP of a company the result is actually far worse. Stealing a game from a shop deprives that shop of selling that one copy, their loss is the amount they paid for it (which is usually half the price they sell it for) & the rest of the companies involved got their money. One person got the game for free and their face is on CCTV. If you repeat it then you're likely to get caught, because the shop is the one losing money and they are going to be watching out for you.

Compare that to uploading a game to the internet, where thousands of people can download the game & nobody gets paid. It's hard to track you down and when they do there is uproar because it's "unfair". You might argue that you're only downloading it, but usually it's bittorrent and so you're helping to upload too. You're also driving demand, if nobody was downloading then release groups wouldn't bother uploading.

Just because your professor says it, doesn't mean it's right. A lot of people get hung up on the fact you're not depriving them of anything physical, but you're depriving them the right to make money out of it. Copyright law was introduced to protect your right to make money for each copy.


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## RodrigoDavy (Mar 28, 2013)

smf said:


> Just because your professor says it, doesn't mean it's right. A lot of people get hung up on the fact you're not depriving them of anything physical, but you're depriving them the right to make money out of it. Copyright law was introduced to protect your right to make money for each copy.


You didn't understand a thing that I said. What I meant was to say there may be some flaws in the way the USA see intellectual property not that copyright shouldn't exist. Please... I didn't even say anything about piracy or downloading copyrighted material in my post that you quoted.

What my professors meant was intellectual property and a regular product are not the same thing and, thus, shouldn't be legally treated like they were the same, simply that. Now tell me where the hell did you see the word piracy in this statement?


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## Rayder (Mar 28, 2013)

I wish I could remember the exact issue of a magazine I had in the early to mid 80's.  They had piracy broken down into many categories......the only other terms I can remember beyond "pirate" was "mugger" and "hacker", but there were quite a few terms that  they categorized for various types of software pirates. Basically, it would call you a certain name based on HOW you acquired your ill-gotten  goodies.  While most of it is probably laughable by today's standards, it still was an extremely interesting article.  Unfortunately, that was 30 years ago and I don't remember most of the details anymore.  I'd love to re-read that article.  I had that issue for years stuffed in a box, but tossed all that stuff when I moved, I don't know how many years ago.

The magazine was called either "Video Games" or "Video Games & Computer Entertainment"   For some reason, I feel 1984 seems like the year that the issue came out.  If nothing else, it would have been an appropriate article to post in this thread for a good read.


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## DS1 (Mar 28, 2013)

smf said:


> It's very difficult to quantify, but it's possible that some of the people that bought the game new may not have done if they couldn't trade it in at all. So it might balance out. The developers make only a small amount on each sale though. The majority goes to the store and the distributor. The store normally double their money on the second hand games as well.


 
1) It's difficult to quantify because it's not a real number. Every used copy is a real number. So these phantom sale losses are pretty insignificant*. I'm speaking on console games alone, though. I don't even know of a store where I live that sells used PC games... part of the reason that the digitization (through sites like GOG or Steam) has been so successful.

2) Developers (and publishers) don't make anything off of the sale, period. They make money off of the shipments, but guess what? They aren't going to ship more copies of something if it isn't selling! So developer X makes a game that only sells 20% of its shipment. Guess how likely that studio is going to get funded to make more games that sell like shit? Someone earlier in the thread had a great post about this.

3) No kidding the stores make more money on second-hand game sales. That's how they stay in business. GameStop's business model is all about used, which is why places like Best Buy are trying to catch up by offering their own used games... But more importantly, who gives a damn about a store's profits? All the GameStops on Earth could be wiped out tomorrow, and it wouldn't affect the industry**, because a bunch of independent stores would pop up in their place. Or everyone would buy from WalMart... either way the publishers would find some way to close the link in the distribution chain. GameStop exists solely to provide cheapskates like me a way to get used games at competitive prices (independent stores are almost always more expensive... though they still have their place because they provide older and rarer titles and hardware).

*Not to mention that any % of piracy in certain countries with large import taxes shouldn't be considered a 'lost sale' - the games are too expensive to have a real consumer culture, as opposed to USA where we actually get our games cheaper than country of origin. Honestly in countries like that, hardware sales are driven by the fact that people are going to get their software for free. Consider those bootleg stores where DS's are packed in with R4s, lol.

**OK, OBVIOUSLY it would affect the industry, but in the theoretical realm where chain stores and mom and pop stores have equivalent inventories, it wouldn't. I'd actually like to see the numbers on market share of new games between GameStop, Best Buy, Amazon, etc.


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## DS1 (Mar 28, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> @DS1.
> First gamestop are surely part of the industry- they handle preorders (which is not something that just sits entirely in their bank accounts), a lot of promotion, they a specialised distribution arm to a specialised field* and I am sure I can probably tack on more to that list. *Companies within companies exist with distribution and transport often being a big part of it- the UK's dominant telco also has a pretty substantial fleet/transport operation for instance ( http://www.btfleet.com/home.aspx ). To that end I could possibly make the case that gamestop is tolerated as a partially self funding distribution arm.
> Equally I find it difficult to imagine someone somewhere in gamestop's HQ/strategy wing has not lined up sales of their second hand and adjusted a an order number for a sequel, gameplay style or some such based upon those.


 
My point was that if gamestop didn't exist, something else would... but yes, I agree with you that they are a specialized distribution arm. It helps to have one centralized company VS several mom & pop stores.. though I do know that GameStop's business model is based off used game sales. It's a symbiotic relationship, I suppose, SO insofar as GameStop is helping with promotions and preorders, the phantom "losses" from used game sales are that much less than downloading. So yeah, you are 100% correct, though that really outlines how the industry is so much publisher VS developer.




FAST6191 said:


> Raw numbers might say you are of no value to a publisher but there is also promotion, online services (nobody playing your multiplayer game.... oh dear. Johnny second hand comes along and you can say you still have numbers online). Similarly with in game ads and other financial things even somewhat more nebulous concepts of marketing that we get to debate.


 
In my perfect world, online wouldn't exist, but alas, you are right again. And alas, the industry is not geared towards improving consumer experience, but providing consumer incentive (preorder bonuses VS actual content)



FAST6191 said:


> Inherent value has everything to do with it- if there is not an inherent/retained value to a product that would then mean you are effectively engaged in a long term rental, lease or something other than a transferable ownership of a license, personally paying several times the odds for a game than I might just about any other form of entertainment for something I can not resell does not sit right with me.


 
Nor me, but we lost that fight.



FAST6191 said:


> I agree the digital stuff could make things interesting and yeah I am sure they would prefer it if they got everything from every sale. The trouble is assuming/wishing/wanting second hand sales not to be a thing is somewhat akin to financial planning by means of expecting you will win the jackpot on a lottery (this was what my hypothetical fairy was about)... though that would be worse as theoretically you could still in the lottery.


 
Right, hypothetically every downloaded game = 1 lost sale, as does every used game = 1 lost sale. However add in the fact that GameStop thrives on used sales, and we have actual damage by downloads... retailers and distributors have an odd relationship regarding used/new sales and reduced prices. Like SquareEnix could say, "OK GameStop, you may sell your inventory of FFXXVII for 50% off because it sold like crap, but you must promise to order at least 10,000 copies of FFXXVII-2: The Reckoning". Then they shake hands and we get weird spinoffs.



FAST6191 said:


> Equally the option for long tail sales to mean something where traditionally the best they might have got is gold editions/game of the year or subsequent bundles unless they lucked out and made a modder's game is potentially a very interesting field- we are already seeing android/IOS type places make models out of it.


 
I don't know much about PC games, but this is why I'm in support of DLC (even supposedly 'crappy' DLC like new outfits). Companies can actually profit off of used games, because there is still content that they can profit from. Technically they'd be able to profit from pirated games as well, but unfortunately many recent forms of modding make online inaccessible... so essentially those that would pirate wouldn't get to pay for DLC (though we can assume they'd just try to pirate the DLC too...)


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## Qtis (Mar 31, 2013)

I've bought a ton of games during the last few years even though I could just as well pirate them. It's more about the availability and price of games that prevent most people buying large amounts of them. This is mainly thanks to Gamestop, Amazon, Play and a few other retailers that have games either cheaper than the RRP or sell used games. Sure it could be seen that I don't value the company and/or games at the original price, but in most cases it's the opposite. I just want to support as many companies as possible, but can't be bothered to buy stuff straight away when I have a backlog of around 100 (retail physical) games already.

ps. The US IP laws are flawed in many ways, which can be seen in the ways people try to validate their right to get provisions from someone else's work. Source for a very valid and recent story. Patents are needed for R&D to be worth the effort and investment, but the general problem is the way very vague patents can be acquired (Apple's design and software patents are the easiest and probably most familiar for anyone using a touch screen smart phone).


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## Rydian (May 5, 2013)

In light of recent butthurt announcements, I added "piracy kills game systems" to the list.


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## xist (May 5, 2013)

Rydian said:


> In light of recent butthurt announcements, I added "piracy kills game systems" to the list.


 
You should also add that if we abolish democracy and opt for alternative political and social systems piracy automatically disappears. Obviously.... sigh.bmp

Actually don't do that....


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## SecretChao428 (May 10, 2013)

This is why in the recent light of things, Republicans in our own Congress in the United States have been wanting to pass such Laws like CISPA or PIPA due to the fact the other reason is because they are protecting the 2% income which "Very High Class" in terms of Occupy Wall Street Protesters, reason Piracy exists, also with the Economy on the tipping point of a Depression, this activity will usually run rampet, and I am not kidding, but Congress was the one who made these laws happen, mostly Republicans, the ones who also want to Kill jobs for the :Low and Middle Class, reason for more Piracy Activity,

Just my 2 Cents on it.


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## TheCasketMan (May 23, 2013)

Use a VPN and you will be an uncatchable pirate


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## FAST6191 (May 23, 2013)

TheCasketMan said:


> Use a VPN and you will be an uncatchable pirate



Really?
http://invisibler.com/lulzsec-and-hidemyass/


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## xist (May 23, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Really?
> http://invisibler.com/lulzsec-and-hidemyass/


 
Pick a VPN that doesn't keep logs?


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## pwsincd (May 23, 2013)

Rayder said:


> I wish I could remember the exact issue of a magazine I had in the early to mid 80's. They had piracy broken down into many categories......the only other terms I can remember beyond "pirate" was "mugger" and "hacker", but there were quite a few terms that they categorized for various types of software pirates. Basically, it would call you a certain name based on HOW you acquired your ill-gotten goodies. While most of it is probably laughable by today's standards, it still was an extremely interesting article. Unfortunately, that was 30 years ago and I don't remember most of the details anymore. I'd love to re-read that article. I had that issue for years stuffed in a box, but tossed all that stuff when I moved, I don't know how many years ago.
> 
> The magazine was called either "Video Games" or "Video Games & Computer Entertainment" For some reason, I feel 1984 seems like the year that the issue came out. If nothing else, it would have been an appropriate article to post in this thread for a good read.


 

http://archive.org/details/cvg-magazine    magazine archive


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jul 7, 2013)

Hmm regarding the OP, I'll let ya know if I ever actually get anything tangibly worth anything from winning an internet debate.

When it comes to law, really, the only thing that actually matters, is, could you prevent yourself from being put in a jail cell regardless of your thoughts on what you did or didn't do and your claims of what it was or wasn't? Because, really, if downloading is putting your ass on the line, literally (because in jail you might really need to worry about your ass, or rather you might be wanting to know if anyone else wishes to use it), then the point might be moot.

Hey I can spout all sorts of interesting facts about the Canadian legal code, but, will it keep me out of jail?
Because it is not always about who is right and who is wrong, but, were you able to win your case in court?

You live in a world where the rich routinely abuse the poor, and the powerful routinely abuse the weak.
Your rights routinely don't mean squat to those that can ignore them.

I download because I can, not because it is right or wrong.
I am also not in a desperate need to have anyone agree with me.
My day will go fine regardless.


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## EzekielRage (Jul 7, 2013)

I REALLY have to jump in on this. In Austria, and yes we are WIPO members but still, the law explicitly states that download is legal and only upload is illegal. That is because we have a special tax on Harddrives that goes towards copyright holders.

What I'm trying to say here is that maybe that would be a good idea in general? If other countries would do the same, many piracy problems would become nonexistant?


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jul 7, 2013)

The key to your comment is it is relevant to your nation's legal code.

Too often too many make posts too specific to a nation's own laws.

In Canada, and unless this has changed and no one thought to tell me, a end user agreement is void if I was not permitted to read it before cash changed hands. What that means, is all the things we agree to while installing whatever at home, that we clicked on just to get the thing installed, well they have no strength, as they were voided the moment I paid for it before being able to read the agreement.

But that's Canada, and it might not do you any good for me to mention it.

We also have the right to make a back up copy (last time I checked) even if the doing so breaks a program meant specifically to deny that function. It's why I can legally use software some nations call illegal as the use of it in Canada is not.

We have a tax on our blank media. It is to counter act the supposed loses stemming from copying. I suppose the MPAA and the RIAA are just not satisfied with the sum of cash they get from this taxation. But we have all pretty much realized the people from those two groups are mentally incapable of that level of satisfaction.

I run a video and in the beginning it blathers about the FBI. All fine and dandy if you are on US soil I suppose. In Canada the FBI has no value. Now OUR equal of the FBI I have to care about.

We all know the secret to doing business and doing it well, is to master the art and not spend all sorts of effort crying for the good ole days of the 20th century.
I enjoy paying Netflix 8 bucks a month for my TV shows. I'd gladly give Slitherine Group 10 bucks a month for unfettered access to all their wargames. Would you pay 15 bucks a month to Sony to just play any game they have on a PS4? and never need to buy a disk at all?


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## EzekielRage (Jul 7, 2013)

No I wouldn't because I LOVE discs, I lvoe physical media, I RARELY buy digital software and when I do it is only because there is no physical version of the game. But I would pay 8 bucks a month for netflix or something like that, unfortunately there is no such thing where I live


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## the_randomizer (Jul 7, 2013)

EzekielRage said:


> No I wouldn't because I LOVE discs, I lvoe physical media, I RARELY buy digital software and when I do it is only because there is no physical version of the game. But I would pay 8 bucks a month for netflix or something like that, unfortunately there is no such thing where I live


 

A proxy or VPN might help


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## EzekielRage (Jul 7, 2013)

then whats the sense of paying? this i just like piracy again...


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jul 7, 2013)

It's just a disk though. The things are like 20 cents at best. I can't even fathom wanting a computer on sale today that didn't have a blueray drive and likely it would be a blueray burner drive. As it goes, my when it was bought seriously fantastic dvd burner drive is still running. The eject function is shot though. But the thing is, I can make a disk with my eyes closed (well not literally). But I would likely not let a person touch my computer to begin with if they knew so little they couldn't master the skill needed to burn data to a disk.

But it's just a disk.

In the last 3 years, all of my wargames have been digital downloads, and I feel sort of sad for those of the wargaming community that still gladly and willingly pay the 10 dollar fee to have the game mailed to them on a disk in a disk case with a pointless install manual thrown in. 10 bucks what a waste. In 5 games, you have thrown away the equal of a free 6th game.

The thing is though we need that file primarily to do an install. So physical disk, or digital download, it's all about the install process.

Now with Netflix, I don't need the disk, hey I have hundreds even thousands of dvds of movies documentaries, and anime still but, it's more fun to just turn on the device and connect to Netflix instead. I can play it here or at a coffee shop wherever.

My idea of an ideal game world, is an account, and access to all the games, and no install required, you just select the game, and you play from where you left off and the company gets to do all the data storing. No scratched disks.

I read on Ars Technica, that this was what MS was thinking about with the X-Box One, a desire to eliminate the need for the media, but, what they did wrong, was they forgot to have a replacement already waiting. Having billions of bucks does not ensure commonsense or smarts clearly. I would not mind anything that puts all my dollars in the hands of the dude(s) that actually make the games. I really don't really care if Gamestop becomes as dead as Blockbuster.

If there was nothing to steal (you may insert any term that floats your boat), there would be nothing to protect. They would not need intrusive annoying programming if they had nothing to worry about. The industry is sloooooow to learn and slow to adjust, but, it's fairly plain, Netflix is working, and Steam too is working (even though I am no big fan of how Steam functions in some cases).

The average gamer would likely gladly sign up to spend 15 bucks on Sony and 15 bucks a month on MS games, if it meant they need only turn on the device log in and start gaming.

Yes yes yes, I know not everyone has superior broadband. Well shit, the starving in Africa are not preventing me from eating eh, why should people with shitty internet be ruining the internet for those that have good services? I sympathize with those that don't have decently priced and decently running internet. Hey you likely could always move eh.

I have downloaded so little in the last 3 years, I have practically forgotten how to do it 
Probably missed some games, a few good documentaries and some movies, but, I have not regretted my Netflix.
I also turfed cable service. Why pay 65 bucks a month to be told what I could watch and when eh?
That is to some extent what we have with games currently. Your selection process is not ideal and the method of delivery sucks when you think about it.
Too often too much of too many games is screwed up by limitations on how the product is sold.
I buy a game on Googleplay, and it allows me to send it to all of my Android devices. Now that is amusing.

I would like to see Sony and MS and Nintendo stop trying to beat each other, and just get together and sell us ONE machine. Just think, no exclusives all the games on one machine. Now that would be cool. Even more cool, if you only needed one service to play it all. Heck I'd pay for that.

I download because I can. And the companies cry and whine, because it seems it's all they can do.
I would love to stand up at E3 and publicly tell all three to get their fucking asses in a single room, and figure out a single machine so that E3 was only about what new games were coming and not about the competition between the hard ware.


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## supercarte (Jul 10, 2013)

The real pirates are the distributors that monopolize the copyrights.



Rydian said:


> *This old game is no longer being sold, so it's out of copyright and it's fine to download.*
> 
> Copyright on modern (1978 and newer) works lasts 70 years past the author's death, or 95-120 years for an anonymous work. Whether it's _still_ sold or not has no bearing on this.


Yes but in this case the author can not claim a prejudice.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 10, 2013)

supercarte said:


> The real pirates are the distributors that monopolize the copyrights.
> 
> 
> Yes but in this case the author can not claim a prejudice.



But they could republish, release a remastered, release an updated edition.... tomorrow and that is what those lengths/terms are supposed to allow for. You or I might have misgivings on the matter and it might lead to a great work being unavailable down the line but that is a different discussion.


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## supercarte (Jul 13, 2013)

The damage is already based on suppositions but not yet on fiction. The trial did not take place with a crystal ball.  (thankfully)


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## the_randomizer (Jul 13, 2013)

People are going to pirate irrespective of the laws in the countries they live in. Some people are just apathetic and simply won't stop to pirate.


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## steveroo (Aug 14, 2013)

I think roms should be similar mp3s on itunes. Download what you want and developers charge $1-5 for each rom.


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## BrightNeko (Aug 29, 2013)

Rydian said:


> *It's okay to download something if I already have a real copy.*
> A myth commonly proposed by ROM/ISO sites, this is false as well. Nowhere do any of the laws or regulations add "unless you already have a copy". The concept of a single backup in "fair use" is commonly-mentioned, but this revolves around _you creating_ your own copy, downloading _somebody else's copy_ is taking part in "distribution", which is still illegal (and the main focus of copyright law).


I guess I didn't do enough research, I thought this was actually the case. Back when I owned a flash cart I would download copies of games I didn't want to open and play them that way. Very much the same for wii and PSP games. Happy I read the first post of the thread at least. However does this apply to patches, hacks, or fixes? Does altering the copy you make in anyway turn it into someone else's copy or work? I ask this because of another bullet a little bit later, and because I adore fan translations and hacks.

Sorry if it has been brought up before, I'm reading the rest of the thread now to check. Wanted to ask though while it was still in my head properly.

-edit-
so skimmed the thread to page 6 or so and surprised no one brought up how companies could use piracy as a good thing, or the real double edge-ness of the entire thing. With most of the discussion sticking to the legal parts of it and questions like my own. Probably better that way.

Although looking through the thread I'm curious now how this effects places that let you play roms online. Places like Nintendo8, Snessy, or gbemul that openly have the roms up to play but not download. Also sorry if I can't even talk about those, I'll remove them from the post if needed.


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## Sliter (Jun 17, 2015)

Rydian said:


> Piracy causes job loss.


atually, my family had and vidoe rental store service, when pirated movies come cheaper and easy to find.... maaan dark times for us D: well it's kinda a personal case but a techically all movie rental stores closed the doors, and then comes services like netflix to try save the glory of legit movies for a nice price 




Rydian said:


> *Piracy kills game systems.*
> There is no correlation between systems that fail *(or succeed)* and piracy. Multiple systems have failed terribly without any piracy in their lifetime (Virtual Boy, N-Gage, CD-i), while other systems that had piracy enabled for the majority of their lifetime ended up being some of the top sellers of their generation (PS1, Wii, GBA, DS, etc.)


actually here in Brazil PS2 was a big success, more than gamecube because it was very easily  modable to run pirates, there also a joke around here that retail ps1-ps2 games does not exist xD


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## LightyKD (Jul 10, 2015)

Has anyone read this article yet? I thought it was decent...

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2015/07/why-people-pirate-video-games/


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## endoverend (Aug 4, 2015)

I have a question about this part of the article:


Rydian said:


> *I bought the disc/cart/game, so I can do whatever I want with the software on it!*
> Sadly, false as well.  In the majority of cases, what you have bought is a physical object containing the information and a license to use that single copy of the information, which is different from owning the object outright​



So does this mean that mods that modify game files are actually illegal?


----------



## Sliter (Aug 4, 2015)

endoverend said:


> I have a question about this part of the article:
> 
> 
> So does this mean that mods that modify game files are actually illegal?


yeah actuallt you own the game like permision to pay it a sit is, not to hack or mod ... like if you wnat toe xtract that awesome track  and add to ypur playlist , t's illegal,the legal way was hearing it ingame from the consle :v 
this is simples, you are ony allowed to play it the max you can explore are bugs and cheats, tranfering the game file for something else you started a illegal operation :v


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## ferofax (Sep 11, 2015)

endoverend said:


> I have a question about this part of the article:
> 
> 
> So does this mean that mods that modify game files are actually illegal?


Read the End User License Agreement that most games have. Even console and handheld games have EULAs, but you'll probably have to go to their website to find it. Anyways, when you bought the game, you agreed to that EULA. Breaking the terms of the EULA would be like breaking the terms of a contract.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 11, 2015)

ferofax said:


> Read the End User License Agreement that most games have. Even console and handheld games have EULAs, but you'll probably have to go to their website to find it. Anyways, when you bought the game, you agreed to that EULA. Breaking the terms of the EULA would be like breaking the terms of a contract.



And yet most people who do don't give a damn, really.


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## ferofax (Sep 11, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> And yet most people who do don't give a damn, really.


True. Nobody even reads the damn thing, other than a rare miniscule amount of people that get turned on by legal jargon or big wall of texts. Be interesting if anybody actually used the EULA against a pirate.


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## endoverend (Sep 11, 2015)

ferofax said:


> True. Nobody even reads the damn thing, other than a rare miniscule amount of people that get turned on by legal jargon or big wall of texts. Be interesting if anybody actually used the EULA against a pirate.


You absolutely can, because they agreed to it whether or not they read it. But multi-million dollar companies have better things to do.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 11, 2015)

endoverend said:


> You absolutely can, because they agreed to it whether or not they read it.


That rather depends upon where you are in the world -- in many places such an agreement presented after the point of sale would render in null and void. Likewise there is still the contract law argument -- you might click through on an agreement to give me your first born child but it is not going to be enforceable, or in the case of a game mod there might well be a law/some case law that says you are free to mod your own devices/software.


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## endoverend (Sep 11, 2015)

FAST6191 said:


> That rather depends upon where you are in the world -- in many places such an agreement presented after the point of sale would render in null and void. Likewise there is still the contract law argument -- you might click through on an agreement to give me your first born child but it is not going to be enforceable, or in the case of a game mod there might well be a law/some case law that says you are free to mod your own devices/software.


Of course it depends on the area-- though I'm sure that, in the USA, signing a EULA displayed on-screen after purchase still constitutes a valid purchase and can be held against you in court (as decided in this case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg)


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## the_randomizer (Sep 11, 2015)

endoverend said:


> Of course it depends on the area-- though I'm sure that, in the USA, signing a EULA displayed on-screen after purchase still constitutes a valid purchase and can be held against you in court (as decided in this case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg)



And yet, it was rare occurrence, most people in the US, much less the Temp as a whole, really don't give damn about EULAs, just saying.


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## ferofax (Sep 11, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> And yet, it was rare occurrence, most people in the US, much less the Temp as a whole, really don't give damn about EULAs, just saying.


Let's just hope it stays that way, that these big companies don't pinpoint us little guys.


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## Pluupy (Sep 18, 2015)

Anybody know the ramifications of pirating video games which were never localized to your region? I've always wondered about that.


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## Greymane (Sep 18, 2015)

If it is a game that has been made in a country, who's licenced property has been acknowledged by other country's. And you live in such a country, then you would still have commited piracy. It does not matter if you where the targeted demographic or not for what was created. The moment you download/uploaded any piece of software, that has any form of licence that requires you to pay the maker or distributer. A law of piracy has still been broken, those laws do get a bit weird and grey ground when dealing with second hand stuff depending on where you are though. Such as selling keys for games you have bought/won/etc but the places you get them from normaly have such things standing in the terms-conditions. So as long as you are in a country, that acknowledges the copyrighted work of the country you pirated something from, (music/movie/games/etc) you can still be put to trial for it.


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## Guinea (Sep 19, 2015)

Very good list!


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## Geno Breaker (Sep 29, 2015)

Really says a lot about the site and it's users when someone has to make a list of piracy myths and it gets stickied...


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## the_randomizer (Sep 29, 2015)

Geno Breaker said:


> Really says a lot about the site and it's users when someone has to make a list of piracy myths and it gets stickied...



And yet you took the time to read it.  Your point?


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## koyuki38 (Nov 25, 2015)

My point is that piracy kills some specific games, related to the public targeted for thephtml.

That's the case for Ace attorney serie, for example. This type of game is played by 'elite' gamer. (The oposite Would be the 'normal' player that would play only AAA or équivalent game). This type of people would enjoy different type of game and not only COD, FIFA or fallout.

Problem is that pirate are elite player IMO. Kind of casual geek that enjoy doing something cool with the hardware, even if they are just homebrew user and not maker.

And so. About those specific game, their fate is to be sold to this target on few numbers, but then piracy comes in the way. The target itself is a pirate and a lot of them would pirate the game instead of buying. That means that the game serie might never be released in the country, etc.

In oposite, a little girl playing my little brony on her console would probably not be a pirate. The target here is some type of player that would probable not hack the game.

About ace attorney serie, i was told that the serie was the most pirated serie of the NDS  game list.
In my country, while we had AA1234 translated, AA investigation was never translated, then AAI2/didn't come out of japan. Now AA5 is only on eshop and not translated to.

That's piracy work.
Of course that doesn't mean not piracing = instant but, but in the AA case, that'means that public exists outqide of japan.

Sorry for beeing a scumbag talking about elite

Edit : a brief article about AA released
http://www.destructoid.com/pirates-kill-the-new-ace-attorney-in-some-retail-zones-164215.phtml

Pays attention to this :
"So screw you Nintendo for making your consoles so easy to hack. That may be OK for you, considering you make so many games that appeal to people who couldn't hack their way out of a paper bag, but for third parties working to make core-friendly games, easily hacked consoles can be a death sentence"

Forget how rude the author can be, just focus on the fact that like i said , public targeted by some games like Mario serie and other is not often a pirate, while other are over pirates by it's own potential customer.


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## Sliter (Nov 26, 2015)

koyuki38 said:


> That's the case for Ace attorney serie, for example. This type of game is played by 'elite' gamer. (The oposite Would be the 'normal' player that would play only AAA or équivalent game). This type of people would enjoy different type of game and not only COD, FIFA or fallout.


well this is not the way the localziation say sinces its NEEDED to say that the obviously japan is Los angeles :B 
I mean , they do it thinking on the people that aren't the actual public , transforming a piece of work in a 4kids like joke  I know the actuall AA fans don't care lol
but I got wat you meant haha well I don't know , novel games are really a explicit public, but por example in china (I was looking about it these days btw) they don't have nintendo there (they have Ique that represent nintendo, sell console with their brand but  less than 10 games or ach console get really localized also only nintendo games(you know, mario, zelda, starfox etc but no pokemon, AA for example),  and you know right? piracy in china is really heavy, from fake carts to official and bootleg flashcards and some cases even consoles, there are a lot of unlicensed developers with stupid hacks, stupid semi/unlicensed original games and even interesting one, what amazed me is that they are HEAVY in fan translations ! gba pokemon for example there are more than one region version for each games  ... anyway I'm amazed of the tons of translation they have , let start that mandarin have tons of characters o be added in the game, just drawing them all is a bunch of work, imagine making them work and show in screen! and sometimes without even taking off the available characters (I mean ABC or Japanese, etc) o_o
So well all this for the sake of piracy?well, no, but games being more accessible! I know a lot burn them on a chip/disc , sell more flashcard and get a lot of money with this, probably the translation team are getting zero with it, and it's not not only "getting games 4 free", but understanding the game! I know a lot of people here that would love to play OOT but don't give a chance because don't know English /other available language US version have, they can play a translation (well not available on this case, but just an example), but need the piracy for this, but not having it original they go to mething easier to understand like football/ fps games ... I know some people are lazy even to play the game on their own language but this another case XD


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## Haloman800 (Apr 26, 2016)

Great article, Rydian. Here's a tl;dr version:


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## VinsCool (Apr 26, 2016)

This video always makes me smile, lol


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## Dr.Hacknik (Jul 7, 2016)

I've downloaded a few Copies of Gamecube games before, but mainly just to try em'...then i bought a physical disk, and backed them up to my USB HDD.


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## Chris313 (Sep 29, 2016)

Wait so ur saying even if there is no old school games available for buying in my country I still can't enjoy them by downloading them and playing via emulator? I hate the law


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## RevPokemon (Sep 29, 2016)

Chris313 said:


> Wait so ur saying even if there is no old school games available for buying in my country I still can't enjoy them by downloading them and playing via emulator? I hate the law


Yup. Also UAE is one of the worst places for piracy.


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## Sliter (Sep 29, 2016)

Chris313 said:


> Wait so ur saying even if there is no old school games available for buying in my country I still can't enjoy them by downloading them and playing via emulator? I hate the law


only if you country have laws abput it .... like I think in cuba tehre aren't and every console there is hached


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## Chris313 (Sep 29, 2016)

Sliter said:


> only if you country have laws abput it .... like I think in cuba tehre aren't and every console there is hached


they don't care actually but they really really care about blocking porn

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



RevPokemon said:


> Yup. Also UAE is one of the worst places for piracy.


Only if ur caught but they mostly don't care alot on piracy but they do on porn or that's what I know.Plus I just wanna experience classics that's all


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## DeoNaught (Sep 29, 2016)

So what if? I pirated a game and then later sent money to Nintendo (as much as the game is)
would that be pirating? cause you gave them money for the game.


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## Sliter (Sep 29, 2016)

Chris313 said:


> they don't care actually but they really really care about blocking porn
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


so I think it's ok XD go to the games, not the porn :v



Deonot1 said:


> So what if? I pirated a game and then later sent money to Nintendo (as much as the game is)
> would that be pirating? cause you gave them money for the game.


still pirate because to pirate it you need a illegal way to pplay/burn/idk it, that is not allowed by them


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## Luckkill4u (Sep 29, 2016)

Piracy and why I do it? Mostly in a form of advocacy because I believe the video game industry and society revolving around it is badly corrupt. Destiny cost half a billion dollars to develop and promote but how much did the developers that made the game get paid? How much went to Activision or marketing of the game? How many executives made six digits when the people who made the game only got five digit salaries? That seems like theft to me, that's is what I think is wrong!

Publishing companies like Konami or Activision remind me of banks. They have the same rights as a human being but they can't go to jail and they can't get STI's (Except Konami is an STI)

Games like Axiom Verge, Hotline Miami, and other indie games with a small budget. These games are gems and I really want to support the developers so I'd never pirate these games. If I have the PS4 version of the game I feel like I have the right to pirate the PC version of the game too. If I have purchased the game I feel like I have the right to make as many personal backups as I like. I want to be able to modify and enhance any software or hardware I have purchased to my liking.

I believe copyright laws are bullshit....


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## DeoNaught (Sep 29, 2016)

ok so I have this friend, and he thinks that Hacking (Yes Hacking) is piracy, could someone give me an explanation on why Hacking isn't Pirating,
(His dads a lawyer)


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## TotalInsanity4 (Sep 29, 2016)

When you hack, you are inserting code that you or someone who has given consent to use has written into a device that was manufactured and sold to you (assuming you're hacking/softmodding your own device). It does not entail the sharing of any proprietary code


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## DeoNaught (Sep 29, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> When you hack, you are inserting code that you or someone who has given consent to use has written into a device that was manufactured and sold to you (assuming you're hacking/softmodding your own device). It does not entail the sharing of any proprietary code


 thanks


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## Sliter (Sep 29, 2016)

Deonot1 said:


> ok so I have this friend, and he thinks that Hacking (Yes Hacking) is piracy, could someone give me an explanation on why Hacking isn't Pirating,
> (His dads a lawyer)


did you even read the credits of the game?
"all use of the game content blah blah blah /all right reserved ", stuff about use and  something like that ...
also when you update a console it say that any use  of unautorizated  content (liek homebrew) is not permited ...

the baseis... you have an old LP of something, you can rip the music with a device and have it on the computer, but plyaing it somewhere is not autorizated by who have the rights of that music :B




Luckkill4u said:


> Games like Axiom Verge, Hotline Miami, and other indie games with a small budget. These games are gems and I really want to support the developers so I'd never pirate these games. If I have the PS4 version of the game I feel like I have the right to pirate the PC version of the game too.


this is why I tell that if you pirate indies you buy the go-only passage to hell xD I agree about big companies part but not about buy one and pirate the rest ... if wasn't te digital content and you had mortal kombat on snes, and wanted also in your megadrive you had to buy the other cart, you can't get in on the shop and go home " but I bought it already" XD
now with digita content, porting it to another plataform is also another work and mostly time come with extras to don't be extaly the same and other stuff, it's valid to buy "again" if you want that other version and even more if indie...


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## Hoozah123 (Dec 15, 2016)

DeoNaught said:


> ok so I have this friend, and he thinks that Hacking (Yes Hacking) is piracy, could someone give me an explanation on why Hacking isn't Pirating,
> (His dads a lawyer)



Hackers and Pirate are two different things. Hackers change and manipulate data. Pirates mainly download or upload. It not to say that hackers can't be pirate, but there are more pirates than there are hackers since hacking a software does take a bit of thinking and programming than just simply copy and pasting.


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## dAVID_ (Dec 18, 2016)

Apparently we're in a legal lagoon.


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## billyboy (Dec 18, 2016)

Hoozah123 said:


> Hackers and Pirate are two different things. Hackers change and manipulate data. Pirates mainly download or upload.



I think hacking counts as piracy. It's an unauthorized use of someone else's software.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Dec 18, 2016)

billyboy said:


> I think hacking counts as piracy. It's an unauthorized use of someone else's software.


But you aren't using any copyrighted material to do so. All you're doing is voiding the warranty


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## evandixon (Dec 18, 2016)

billyboy said:


> I think hacking counts as piracy. It's an unauthorized use of someone else's software.


If I cheat and get all the items in my inventory, the game company isn't out any money.  If I pirate the game, then the game company might have (this is the part that gets tricky, but the company sees someone who got the game without paying for it).


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## Raylight (Dec 18, 2016)

NightsOwl said:


> The funny thing I have a friend who downloads 40+GB games in a day and plays them once and just deletes them.
> If he gets caught I'm going to have to laugh at him, considering I told him that was an extremely stupid thing to do.
> 
> 
> ...


if i like it i buy it. but times are changing and thats why i use steam and gog they are affordable


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## billyboy (Dec 18, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> But you aren't using any copyrighted material to do so. All you're doing is voiding the warranty



Isn't the code copyrighted? I always see source codes out there that allow people to use/edit/distribute them under certain conditions. I would assume that Nintendo's code would be something like, you can't mess with this period.


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## mr allen (Dec 18, 2016)

billyboy said:


> Isn't the code copyrighted? I always see source codes out there that allow people to use/edit/distribute them under certain conditions. I would assume that Nintendo's code would be something like, you can't mess with this period.


Copyright protects from reproduction and distribution, alteration is an entirely different thing and is generally speaking legal.


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## alienfromouterspace (Dec 20, 2016)

Is it okay or not to talk about piracy in this forum?


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## Coolsonickirby (Dec 20, 2016)

alienfromouterspace said:


> Is it okay or not to talk about piracy in this forum?


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## alienfromouterspace (Dec 20, 2016)

Well I've seen people discuss about getting something and would it enable them to pirate


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## Xiphiidae (Dec 20, 2016)

alienfromouterspace said:


> Is it okay or not to talk about piracy in this forum?





alienfromouterspace said:


> Well I've seen people discuss about getting something and would it enable them to pirate


Open discussion is fine, but it's the sharing of information related to accessing pirated content (e.g. links to / names of websites that host ROMs) that's against the rules.


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## alienfromouterspace (Dec 20, 2016)

Cool, thanks!


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## ww97 (Jan 22, 2017)

Ha, ha! The penultimate fact (Copyright rules outside US) would not be assigned to me (I was knowing about THAT V R OUT OF BERN CONVENTION)! I am proud that I am a pirate (and got a warning here for just MENTIONING a pirate site). Yarrrr!


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 23, 2017)

ww97 said:


> Ha, ha! The penultimate fact (Copyright rules outside US) would not be assigned to me (I was knowing about THAT V R OUT OF BERN CONVENTION)! I am proud that I am a pirate (and got a warning here for just MENTIONING a pirate site). Yarrrr!


You realize that the reason we can't link to rom sites is for GBAtemp's protection, not ours, right?


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## DarkCoffe64 (Jan 23, 2017)

My personal rule for piracy: If I like the game, I buy it. Or put it in a "remember to buy" list for when I can actually do it. I wanna support developers that make good games.
If I din't like it, oh well. Din't waste any money.


Also, 'bout that kongsnutz guy, was reading the comments on that Kotaku article, and the last one is by "him".
If it's actually him and not a troll impersonating him, what a a-hole. I hope he rots under a bridge or something.


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## ym2612 (Jan 28, 2017)

i dont know if that has been posted sofar (too lazy to read 12 pages) and also if that is pro/contra piracy but i always liked the urban legend about if not for piracy (and mod chips) the original playstation (called psx back then although there is another/real sony psx hardware  would not have become such a huge success (and single cash-cow for troubled sony back then) and also cd-r burners would not have such high demand back in the days... anyone remembers goldenhawk's cdrwin? at least it paved the way out of hobbyist/enthusiast into the global mainstream market.


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## B.B.Link (Jan 28, 2017)

Go ahead and try to justify pirating all you want. At the end of the day, you're still taking money out of somebody's pocket every time you download something you should've paid for. If you believe even 1% that pirating is OK then you're really fucked in the head.


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## Sketchy1 (Feb 19, 2017)

Rydian said:


> *I'm just some guy on a forum, they'll never get me.*
> Tell that to GBATemp member kongsnutz, who was sued for $1,500,000 AUD.



difference is Nintendo knows were just small potatoes tho.

people who dump the game in the first place are their real priority, which is why they sued that guy (to make an example).
plus, what he did wouldnt exactly constitute as _piracy _ but rather creating your own copy, which is circumventing encryptions.

that aside, id just like to see a source for that "no money loss statement"
because every time you download, they dont get their money, which is essentially the same as me going to my local gamestop, and walking away with a game i didnt pay for, so all in all, it did actually subtract money, my account stood at $500, rather then $502 for the song you pirated

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DarkCoffe64 said:


> My personal rule for piracy: If I like the game, I buy it. Or put it in a "remember to buy" list for when I can actually do it. I wanna support developers that make good games.
> If I din't like it, oh well. Din't waste any money.


just let natural game selection take its course


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## Westwoodo (Feb 20, 2017)

It's amazing the things some people believe.


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## Vipera (Feb 20, 2017)

I can't believe this nosense is in a sticked post.



Rydian said:


> *Piracy is theft.*
> This is by far the most common myth.  Piracy is not theft because it does not cause any direct damage or loss to the other party (in fact, whether there's another party at all is sometimes up for debate).  Theft, on the other hand, is a criminal act because in committing an act of theft, you deprive somebody of something.  If I go and take an old lady's purse, _then due to my actions the old lady has been caused a loss_, her purse.  However, when pirating, _nobody loses anything_.  The pirater gains _a copy of_ some digital item, while the person/entity who originally created that item _is completely unaffected by the act_.




If you are using something you didn't pay for, you stole it. You are causing a loss of profit to the person who made that thing you downloaded for free. A lot of the folks down to the "I can't afford it, so I pirate it" club can afford to spend 50 bucks for a game. They just don't want to, because they found a free alternative at the cost of making the creators lose their profit.

You people who pirate should really stop trying to justify why you pirate. We get it, you feel entitled to something that you don't want to pay because you feel like having other priorities.


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## DarkCoffe64 (Feb 22, 2017)

Sketchy1 said:


> just let natural game selection take its course


And waste 60+ dollars/euros/whatever for a game I might end up not liking, and get almost nothing when I turn it back?
No thanks, I'll stick to my method. I'm not Scrooge McDuck.


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## Sketchy1 (Feb 22, 2017)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> And waste 60+ dollars/euros/whatever for a game I might end up not liking, and get almost nothing when I turn it back?
> No thanks, I'll stick to my method. I'm not Scrooge McDuck.


*when i agreed with it*
pirate a game before you buy it. that way:

bad games die out because people dont buy them.
good companies get $$$

natural selection killed the least fit.


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## DarkCoffe64 (Feb 22, 2017)

Sketchy1 said:


> *when i agreed with it*
> pirate a game before you buy it. that way:
> 
> bad games die out because people dont buy them.
> ...


Well, ain't this a good thing? This way, "developers" lke Digital Homicide or Dentola Studios wouldn't have more any money to "create" more "games".



Sketchy1 said:


> *when i agreed with it*


What, you were alright with this then changed your mind? I don't know if I'm understanding you...


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## HamBone41801 (Feb 22, 2017)

correct me if I'm wrong, but recently (in the u.s. at least), the law surrounding this part of the post has changed.

*I bought the disc/cart/game, so I can do whatever I want with the software on it!*
Sadly, false as well. In the majority of cases, what you have bought is a physical object containing the information and a license to use that single copy of the information, which is different from owning the object outright.

Ill look for the article for this, but if I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of companies can't prosecute you for tampering with the software of things you buy (There are obviously lots of exceptions, but I cant seem to find that article.)


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## Sketchy1 (Feb 22, 2017)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> Well, ain't this a good thing? This way, "developers" lke Digital Homicide or Dentola Studios wouldn't have more any money to "create" more "games".
> 
> 
> What, you were alright with this then changed your mind? I don't know if I'm understanding you...


lmao i mean i was fine with your original post. only buy games that ya like


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## HamBone41801 (Feb 22, 2017)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> Well, ain't this a good thing? This way, "developers" lke Digital Homicide or Dentola Studios wouldn't have more any money to "create" more "games".
> 
> 
> What, you were alright with this then changed your mind? I don't know if I'm understanding you...


 
Digital homicide is the WORST.


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## Sketchy1 (Feb 23, 2017)

HamBone41801 said:


> Digital homicide is the WORST.


hence their name.
they kill the will to play


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## Dust2dust (Feb 23, 2017)

ym2612 said:


> ... i always liked the urban legend about if not for piracy (and mod chips) the original playstation  ... would not have become such a huge success (and single cash-cow for troubled sony back then) and also cd-r burners would not have such high demand back in the days... anyone remembers goldenhawk's cdrwin?


Back in the PS2/XBOX/Gamecube era, the Gamecube was the last one to get hacked, and as it turned out, was also the least popular console.  Coincidence? Maybe.  About Goldenhawk's cdrwin, yes I remember this.  It was considered the best app to successfully burn Playstation games. But ironically, this program itself was heavily pirated.  There were rumors that a pirated bad key to unlock the app would be accepted when entered, but then, the app would burn coasters or do even nastier things like corrupt the registry.  Luckily, the keygens I used back then always produced good keys.


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## crimsonedge11 (Mar 7, 2017)

I'm just gonna throw this out there, but someone gifted the new DOOM game to me on steam.  I never downloaded it because it's over 60gbs.  And they frequently release (monthly) 10GB+ updates they force you to install before you can play the game.  Anyway, pirates put up a ripped copy of the game that's around 20GBs, where they cut the online stuff out of it.  DOOM online is plagued with hackers anyway, and something I'd never have played.  So even though I own an official copy of the game, I'd rather play the ripped 20GB copy that doesn't lock me out of playing it (I play this once or twice a month) to update content I'm never going to play (online).

This is an example of a non-monetary reason why someone might pirate a game.  I absolutely detest "forced updates" for games that aren't 100% online.  I understand why this should be required for online games, but even for games that have online + offline, why couldn't they just lock you out of online until you update?  I hate being locked into having to do this.  This is why I'm not a huge fan of steam.  And this is why I might consider pirating a game even if money isn't an issue.  Big brother doesn't force me to update the pirated versions.  What if there is a glitch/exploit I'm having fun doing in the current version, update rolls along, and I can't play it anymore without updating, and neither can I roll it back?


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## Deleted User (Mar 24, 2017)

Vipera said:


> I can't believe this nosense is in a sticked post.
> 
> If you are using something you didn't pay for, you stole it. You are causing a loss of profit to the person who made that thing you downloaded for free. A lot of the folks down to the "I can't afford it, so I pirate it" club can afford to spend 50 bucks for a game. They just don't want to, because they found a free alternative at the cost of making the creators lose their profit.
> 
> You people who pirate should really stop trying to justify why you pirate. We get it, you feel entitled to something that you don't want to pay because you feel like having other priorities.



How come you're unable to understand the difference between a copy and a theft? Even when it's spelled our right in front of you. That's not normal.


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## Vipera (Apr 16, 2017)

Stingart said:


> How come you're unable to understand the difference between a copy and a theft? Even when it's spelled our right in front of you. That's not normal.


Looks like someone failed economics class.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


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## Hells Malice (Apr 16, 2017)

Vipera said:


> Looks like someone failed economics class.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk



Looks like someone failed 4th grade English.

Theft by definition requires that you've taken or removed something.

The first post is worded a bit oddly in favour of pirating, however it's still correct.
I don't think anyone was saying piracy is okay _because_ it isn't theft (well some have, but they're morons). It's just not, by definition, theft. I think that's just your entitlement flaring up because you apparently don't pirate games.

Unfortunately no matter how entitled you act, you can't and won't be changing the definition of the word 'theft' to suit your needs here. You just look ignorant.


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## Vipera (Apr 16, 2017)

Hells Malice said:


> Looks like someone failed 4th grade English.
> 
> Theft by definition requires that you've taken or removed something.
> 
> ...


Woah there buddy, need some creme for that butthurt?

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 16, 2017)

Hells Malice said:


> Looks like someone failed 4th grade English.
> 
> Theft by definition requires that you've taken or removed something.
> 
> ...


steal
[stēl]
VERB

take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it
Whoops


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## SoslanVanWieren (Mar 18, 2018)

problem is nearly every one does it so thats why its not enforced as much as other laws or millons of people would be fined.


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## SoslanVanWieren (Mar 18, 2018)

problem is nearly every one does it so thats why its not enforced as much as other laws or millons of people would be fined.


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## BlueFox gui (Mar 18, 2018)

look in my opinion...
fuck devs and other things LOL
i will pirate forever and i don't care, never had any problem


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## TotalInsanity4 (Mar 18, 2018)

SoslanVanWieren said:


> problem is nearly every one does it so thats why its not enforced as much as other laws or millons of people would be fined.


It's like jaywalking, it's used to be able to convict someone in the event they're caught for something else


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## Deleted User (Mar 18, 2018)

This thread has opened my eyes, and I don't know if it was in a good way or bad way.


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## Zaphod77 (Nov 20, 2018)

Myth: The term piracy (with regards to copyright infringement) was invented by the MPAA/RIAA/etc. in the 20th century.

Fact: The term predates copyright law, and was used with regards to unauthorized copying of printed works in the 17th century. It was just as pejoratively intended then as it is now.

http://www.luminarium.org/renascence-editions/yeare.html

As soon as software on magnetic media was developed, the term software piracy was invented shortly after it started happening.


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## CosmoConstant (Aug 11, 2019)

I like piracy!


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## jack44556677 (Feb 6, 2020)

I am mostly just posting because I cannot share my work here until I post 5 times 

I did not read through this whole thread, so my apologies in advance if this has already been mentioned.

Firstly, great thread!  And excellent list of both the distinction between piracy and theft, as well as the debunking of many misconceptions (some of which I had myself, like the "physical copy/ownership rule".

Many criminals (drug dealers mostly) are under a whopper of a misconception that if they ask someone if they are a cop, that they MUST tell them honestly if they are.  Once upon a time, this was true - and it OUGHT to still be true today - however there is no active precedent/legal recourse for entrapment anymore.  "Stings", including where undercover cops encourage people to commit crimes (or simply say they are interested in doing so) and this is a "clean bust" according to our fantastically corrupt and evil "law"/"legal system"/"justice system" (quotes for offensive euphemism).  This VERY much includes when authorities host files for you to download (some of which have no copyright content within them at all, merely the name of a copyrighted work, and then steal your money (all legal theft of course, but theft is theft regardless of "legal infrastructure"/how it is conducted.

Another point I should like to add is about the DMCA.  I encourage people to check out "Nirvana the band the show" and learn about the lawyer they have representing them (the same lawyer responsible for beating disney at their own corrupt usury game with the movie "Escape from Tomorrow" which was filmed at disneyland while paying NO rights/fees to anyone - much to evil disney's shagrin).

Law is heinously/impossibly/unfathomably complex, which is one of the reasons you can't use "i didn't know" as a defense. You are guilty until proven innocent, and all that must be done is for a corporation or other "authority" of any kind to point the finger at you.  That said, in the intentional obfuscatory complexity is "leeway" (IF AND ONLY IF YOU CAN AFFORD THE COMPETENT LEGAL COUNCIL, which virtually no-one can).  In the case of the DMCA, there is a blanket of "fair use" which is a MUCH larger shield than people recognize.  The aforementioned lawyer has been extremely successful in setting precedent in courts that using your materials (whether purchased movies / games / music or just things you experienced that made a large emotional impact on you and is a part of you and your history as a result) is your right, and there isn't a gosh darn thing the devil and his worshipers (working tirelessly to make sharing and caring expressly illegal in every way) can do about it - again, for now - and only with the requisite expensive legal council.  Although not expressly stated, I believe the spirit of most copyright law (usually only relevant/impactful in supreme court cases) is that "piracy" as a criminal/civil offense must involve monetary harm or monetary gain. Sadly, this is not something the judge will want to hear about but there is always the EXTREMELY remote chance you will get a judge with a working heart and some remnants of their human soul left.  I just red about a local pta that was fined 250 bucks for showing the lion king to some kids on school property, we live in very sad times.


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## TifelMyers (May 4, 2020)

Doesn't the fine if you are caught pirating differ per country?


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## Zaphod77 (May 6, 2020)

Sadly, fair use doesn't actually provide a defense against the DMCA.  That's why they have to make individual exemptions to it.

See DeCSS.

Incidentally, hosting pirated files as a sting doesn't actually work outside of a torrent in most countries, and here's why.

The reason is intent cannot be proven purely from a download.

Sure, you probably are intending to pirate.  But that can't be proven.  You could be checking it out to make sure it's actually an illegal copy before reporting it to the copyright owner, and then deleting it from your computer. (and if someone does come to investigate, you can delete it before they get there and easily claim that very thing and the claim can't be disproven)  You could be investigating it to see if the crack contains a virus, so you know whether to detect it.  You could be building up a library without using the pirated software. (many people do this)  As long as you do not distribute it, and do not install it, you have caused zero harm to the copyright holder.  The copyright people know this.  Any damages from your download are 100% speculation, and the courts have forbidden companies from collecting on them.

Back in the days of using public ftp sits for piracy, it was always the uploaders that got in trouble, and not the downloaders. After all, even if you are the copyright holder, you have to download the software yourself to see what it really is.  Anyone who tries to persecute just downloading will have to gnash their teeth and admit they have nothing they can ding you with, unless they have spyware on your computer.  Most countries take a very dim view of that. Sure you can try to make your software phone home to verify licensed use, but better not be any false positives...

The reason you get dinged while torrenting/peer to peering is because you also engage in distribution of the copyrighted media/software, and that doesn't require intent to be proven for damages.  In this case ignorance doesn't protect you. They have proof that you transmitted parts of the copyrighted work.  And as the copyright owner, they are allowed to join in to find this out.


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## SkeletonSmith (Jun 20, 2020)

"Someone" in our family (stares at uncle) hacked our wii and pirated every wii game in existence and i only recently learned the wii was hacked when i hacked it myself and saw some cache on the nanf


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## dAVID_ (Jun 21, 2020)

Zaphod77 said:


> Sadly, fair use doesn't actually provide a defense against the DMCA.  That's why they have to make individual exemptions to it.
> 
> See DeCSS.
> 
> ...


Deleting a file is not a guarantee that it can't be recovered. Usually, operating systems don't actually overwrite the file with 0's, so it *is* possible to recover a file even if you deleted it. To my knowledge, in the United States, redistributing copyrighted content is not a requisite for copyright infringement, so you *could* be prosecuted even if you don't share your warez or if you set your upload speed to 0 in your BitTorrent client. Either way, companies usually go after large sites rather than individuals.
The reason why your ISP will send you love letters if they think you're torrenting is simply because they don't want to be held liable for copyright infringement. This might not be true for every country, though.
Fortunately, in my country (Mexico), copyright laws are very loose. Here, copyright infringement is only a criminal offense if it is done with the intent to make a profit.


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## MetoMeto (Jul 3, 2020)

"Copyright on modern (1978 and newer) works lasts 70 years past the author's death, 
or 95-120 years for an anonymous work. Whether it's _still_ sold or not has no bearing on this."

This is a total bullshit if you ask me. I question the sanity of people making copyright laws in the first place!
But hey, we have no choice but to do what the "law" is saying...


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## MasterJ360 (Jul 3, 2020)

There are far better ways to pirate than torrenting, not using a vpn via torrent is like unprotected sex.
Among the reports on Nintendo shutting down sites only the site owner gets punished not the downloaders. I don't think I've heard a bigger piracy case than the Megaupload incident that got the FBI involved.


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## Zaphod77 (Jul 13, 2020)

dAVID_ said:


> Deleting a file is not a guarantee that it can't be recovered. Usually, operating systems don't actually overwrite the file with 0's, so it *is* possible to recover a file even if you deleted it.



Yes, but all they can prove even then is that you extracted the file, and tested the installer. not that you actually used the software for any significant amount of time.  Just because you downloaded the file doesn't prove you pirated.

Again, you generally cannot get in trouble just for downloading.   Distribution is where you run into trouble, which can't be avoided while torrenting properly.


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## dAVID_ (Jul 15, 2020)

Zaphod77 said:


> Yes, but all they can prove even then is that you extracted the file, and tested the installer. not that you actually used the software for any significant amount of time.  Just because you downloaded the file doesn't prove you pirated.
> 
> Again, you generally cannot get in trouble just for downloading.   Distribution is where you run into trouble, which can't be avoided while torrenting properly.


Re-distributing copyrighted works isn't a requisite for copyright infringement under U.S. law.


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## Jayinem81 (Jul 15, 2020)

Myth: You will go to hell for piracy


Actually that is true.


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## dAVID_ (Jul 18, 2020)

Jayinem81 said:


> Myth: You will go to hell for piracy
> 
> 
> Actually that is true.


YOU WOULDN'T POST A MEME THAT CONTAINS COPYRIGHTED CONTENT TO AN INTERENT FORUM


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## Zaphod77 (Aug 10, 2020)

dAVID_ said:


> Re-distributing copyrighted works isn't a requisite for copyright infringement under U.S. law.


True. but again... they can't PROVE it if you don't distribute.  

They can't even prove it wasn't planted.   Innocent until proven guilty for criminal cases.  And there are court rulings on speculative damages.

Proving download doesn't prove any copyright violation on the part of the downloader.


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## Chrisssj2 (Aug 10, 2020)

*Piracy is a construct of the human mind ego which is based in scarcity. Done. Now everyone piss off with the illegal,criminal theft, illusion bla bla bla.*


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## CMDreamer (Aug 10, 2020)

Piracy is all about obtaining an economic profit from such activity. Like those pirates that sailed the seven seas, long ago; the therm has it's roots on them.

Actually, piracy (in the perspective of all entertainment industries), is any activity that may harm their profit, clear and simple.

Sharing is not piracy, because when you share, you're not getting any economic profit from it, so you're not harming their profit. There's nothing as simple as that.
Many years ago, sharing was a common thing, and you could see people sharing those old "floppies" with many types of software in them; when the industries behind them saw their profit harmed (under their perspective), they payed the law makers to create all those copyright laws to protect them, because the only way to stop "the masses" is by having a law that limits their acting.

But anyway that's just my very own perspective.


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## dAVID_ (Aug 11, 2020)

Zaphod77 said:


> True. but again... they can't PROVE it if you don't distribute.
> 
> They can't even prove it wasn't planted.   Innocent until proven guilty for criminal cases.  And there are court rulings on speculative damages.
> 
> Proving download doesn't prove any copyright violation on the part of the downloader.


If they can prove that you downloaded copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder, they can convict you for copyright infringement. Simple as that.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 11, 2020)

I forgot this thread existed. Unfortunately, I have to see it again. Too many wannabe e-lawyers thinking they know and understand. The fact of the matter is that piracy is illegal. No matter how you want to spin it. I don't care that you do. I don't care why you do it. Just don't pretend you're not breaking any copyright laws.


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## djnate27 (Aug 11, 2020)

The whole structure is seriously flawed. I use to “acquire” every game that interested me. Later I decided that I will only play games that I obtain a physical copy of. These are usually *USED* games I buy secondhand so the Publishers/Developers/Console maker don’t see a ‘red dime’ (Knives Out).


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## spectral (Aug 11, 2020)

djnate27 said:


> The whole structure is seriously flawed. I use to “acquire” every game that interested me. Later I decided that I will only play games that I obtain a physical copy of. These are usually *USED* games I buy secondhand so the Publishers/Developers/Console maker don’t see a ‘red dime’ (Knives Out).



You're right and they hate the used games market just about as much as they hate piracy. It's just more difficult for them to do anything about as selling used games is legal. It's not impossible for them to counter it though. MS planned to block games working on more than one console when they announced the Xbox one but scrapped the idea due to the negative publicity it was causing. It's why they are now so keen to push digital.


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## Zaphod77 (Aug 11, 2020)

dAVID_ said:


> _*If they can prove*_ that you downloaded copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder, they can convict you for copyright infringement. Simple as that.



Unless you confess, they most likely can't prove it. 

which is my point.


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## dAVID_ (Aug 12, 2020)

Zaphod77 said:


> Unless you confess, they most likely can't prove it.
> 
> which is my point.


I think you're getting the wrong idea here. *All* a copyright holder needs to prove is that *you* download their work without their permission.


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## Zaphod77 (Aug 13, 2020)

And that proof is darn near impossible to get without very invasive spyware and human rights violations.

As long as you stick to direct downloads, they have their work cut out for them to prove their case. First they must prove that the copyrighted work was on the server you downloaded it from.  Otherwise they have no way to even GET probable cause to search your computer, unless you do something silly like confessing.   To do that they have to download it themselves from the server.  which is fair, they own the copyright, they have permission, it's not a violation for them to do that.  Then they have to get the access logs to the remote server, which will have a list of all IPs that have download the file, provided said haven't been scrubbed, and even exist in the first place.  And if they do get logs, there are probably dynamic IPs in them.  If so, they also have to get info from the isp to prove that it was assigned to that customer at the time.  Which again is not a guarantee.

So assuming they somehow get accurate logs, and track it being downloaded to your home's IP at the time, they still haven't proven that you personally did it.  It could have been someone else in your house sharing the same internet IP.  It could have been someone who hacked into your wi-fi.  That happens all the time. It coud be a house guest on a laptop who is long gone, and they can't trace it because the computer isn't even there.

Even the presence of the files on your computer is not proof you downloaded it.  maybe you just downloaded a no-cd so you wouldn't have to put in the CD.   Maybe it's a gog.com game you bought. there's no way to tell the difference by looking at your computer.   Your computers copy could be legit. the pirated copy might be on a different computer, which as i said above, might not even be there.

Some malware may have downloaded it. That's not your fault, is it?

It's just not that simple to prove. 

If you do torrent without a VPN, then all they have to do is join the swarm, and they find out all the IPs of everyone involved at the time.  which makes it MUCH easier for them to match things up and get that proof and claim major statuatory damages.


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## dAVID_ (Aug 13, 2020)

Zaphod77 said:


> And that proof is darn near impossible to get without very invasive spyware and human rights violations.
> 
> As long as you stick to direct downloads, they have their work cut out for them to prove their case. First they must prove that the copyrighted work was on the server you downloaded it from.  Otherwise they have no way to even GET probable cause to search your computer, unless you do something silly like confessing.   To do that they have to download it themselves from the server.  which is fair, they own the copyright, they have permission, it's not a violation for them to do that.  Then they have to get the access logs to the remote server, which will have a list of all IPs that have download the file, provided said haven't been scrubbed, and even exist in the first place.  And if they do get logs, there are probably dynamic IPs in them.  If so, they also have to get info from the isp to prove that it was assigned to that customer at the time.  Which again is not a guarantee.
> 
> ...


If law enforcement gets a search warrant to bust into your house and go through your hard drives, guess what? You're fucked. If they got that far, it means that they already have some evidence on you, which probably includes server logs and/or data kindly provided by your ISP.
And even if you're using full disk encryption, that countermeasure is only effective as long as your computer is shut down (and even then, it might still be possible to recover decryption keys).
The only fool-proof defense against copyright is living in a third world country where copyright law is lax/ignored.
I should probably make a disclaimer here: I am not a lawyer. I'm just some bumbling idiot arguing about computer forensics and copyright law on a video game oriented forum.


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## Zaphod77 (Aug 13, 2020)

Even with logs from the isp, that only goes as far as the router, and not your PC.  If you provide your own router instead of using their bundled one (which could maybe possibly log enough to actually follow the chain of download). they have no proof, and no cause for a warrant.  They just know that some device that was connected to the network at that time downloaded it. 

Again, they can't get evidence just from direct download. there MUST be something else for them to get enough, at least in the USA.  It make much more sense to go after the distribution.

There may be some countries that have enough of a copyright gestapo to actually prosecute downloading.  But i don't know what they are.

And my original point was that there's no such thing as a ddl sting.  Just bait torrents, because those are much easier to get evidence off of.


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## r0achtheunsavory (Sep 9, 2020)

There's no such thing as intellectual property because it would require a tyrannical world government to enforce.  Who wants to live under a "new world order"?  Pretty much nobody.  This is why whenever some buffoon starts mumbling jibberish about intellectual property you can tell them to go F themselves.

All they're trying to do is get you to perform mental gymnastics to agree to prop up their invalid business model.  There was no cosmic event that occurred where Gawd on the 7th day said "let it be known that EA sports should have a valid business model of selling recycled basketball games over the internet".

Lots of invalid business models fail all the time.  If you like what they sell and want to try to keep them afloat by handing them money, well, that's your perogative.  It's really an economics lesson.  Anything based on artificial scarcity has no value according to the invisible hand of the market and it will eventually force the value to zero in one way or another.

Fiats?  All go to zero.  Bitcoin?  It's an imaginary widget based on artificial scarcity, same thing as fiat.  Will also go to zero.  Money is required to be a non-perishable, physical commodity resource, which is why gold and silver are the Schelling point of money.

When software tries to act as some form of commodity money and pretend it has a shelf value of $50, the invisble hand of the market sends it to $0 anyway no matter how hard you try to stop it.  It's an invalid business model artificially propped up by govts.


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## scubersteve (Nov 4, 2020)

afaik, in canada, acquiring pirated information for personal use still isn't illegal, only distribution/profit is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_sharing_in_Canada


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## raxadian (Mar 6, 2021)

As of 2021 What game systems have expired all their patents and  so can be legally cloned?


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## Zaphod77 (Mar 7, 2021)

The NES (and presumably anything earlier) has expired patents.  maybe the master system can be cloned too.  But only systems that don't have a BIOS, can be cloned so easily.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 7, 2021)

raxadian said:


> As of 2021 What game systems have expired all their patents and  so can be legally cloned?


The length (term, as in term limits for politicians, if you prefer the proper legal phrase) is less of an issue. Most consoles are arrangements of common chips and that is hard to do anything with (one reason why emulation can exist so happily) -- not like Nintendo made the 6502 for the NES or ARM chips for most of its handhelds and consoles since the GBA. You having 4KB of video memory at a given address is also nothing special, novel, unique or inventive.
The patents then tend to come into things like the controllers (see the NES dpad one for a fairly famous example), mechanisms for inserting the cartridge* and other such things, though I am sure the US will have a few software patents later down the line *spits*.
There are ways to chain patents together -- prior art (as in someone did this before and thus you can't claim it as new) is supposed to be a thing in patents (whether the US actually does this is a debate for a different day) and it gets harder if you trip over your own patent from a few years earlier so you have something of a grace period in which you can file another patent using/referencing the contents of an earlier one, which is why the end of some relevant patents can be a bit nebulous.
You also have the added bonus that the US changed its patent rules in 1995 (the PS1 dropped in 1994 in Japan so presumably patents would have already been in place before then) to be more generally 20 years with some older stuff now maybe being shorter. Though at this point everything from before then should have expired.
20 years back from 2021 though means the GBA, xbox, PS2, GP32 and gamecube, especially if all of those were filed/granted prior to consumer launch, have just dropped out of protection in the US or will shortly. I don't know what will go with some of the accessories, controllers and the like that were released later in the system lifetimes, and possibly something that could have happened in a later board revision.

Will have to do some research but I don't think I have seen too many patents in game world be destroyed. Equally it is generally noted most don't care about patents per se and instead just have big war chests so when another company tries it on they can go nuclear.

I doubt there are any submarine patents either (see video below for a brief discussion of that one).

*offhand I don't know if the NES insert and push down had major ones on but that sort of thing. Also brings up the issue of you can clone the thing by dodging the push down thing and just doing a straight insertion like most other cartridge based consoles.

BIOS, as mentioned above, as well as related things like firmwares and loader menus can make things more fun as that is software and software is copyrightable. As we are only seeing works from 1925 exit copyright this year ( https://gbatemp.net/threads/new-in-the-public-domain-for-2021.580143/ ) there is a while to wait there yet. There are some open source BIOS things -- most BIOS and firmware is very basic (here is the GBA/DS/DSi, arguably on the more complicated side of such concepts, http://problemkaputt.de/gbatek.htm#biosfunctions for an idea of what it entails) and thus you can recreate the calls in your own code if you wanted.

Copyright would also mean doing something like https://bitbuilt.net/forums/index.php?threads/gba-board-scans.807/ , scanning in and recreating the exact layout before flogging that on might be dubious as the board design itself likely falls under copyright just like layout in a book or the like. You getting all the chips and finding these traces need to be matched impedance and creating something similar though would be a different matter.

For the US side of things a choice video on patents

Same guy has some decent talks as well on other things that might be relevant.


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## raxadian (Mar 7, 2021)

Zaphod77 said:


> The NES (and presumably anything earlier) has expired patents.  maybe the master system can be cloned too.  But only systems that don't have a BIOS, can be cloned so easily.



Also the Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis and Sega CD and Sega 32x.

The Sega CD bios may still be copyrighted but not all emulators need it.


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## smf (Mar 8, 2021)

scubersteve said:


> afaik, in canada, acquiring pirated information for personal use still isn't illegal, only distribution/profit is.



When you say illegal, do you mean criminal?

https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/h_wr02281.html



raxadian said:


> Also the Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis and Sega CD and Sega 32x.
> 
> The Sega CD bios may still be copyrighted but not all emulators need it.



May? Why do you think it isn't?


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## raxadian (Mar 8, 2021)

smf said:


> When you say illegal, do you mean criminal?
> 
> https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/h_wr02281.html
> 
> ...



Software follows different laws to hardware..

Otherwise any Game from 30 years ago would have become freeware and that's not the case.


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## smf (Mar 8, 2021)

raxadian said:


> Software follows different laws to hardware..
> 
> Otherwise any Game from 30 years ago would have become freeware and that's not the case.



Software gets copyright protection (life+70 years), chips get mask protection (10 years) and everything else you need to try to patent (20 years).

But bios is software.


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## Viri (Mar 8, 2021)

Stop being such a "moral fag" about everything when it comes to piracy. Quit overthinking things about morals, just have fun and enjoy your free vidya! Companies won't give a shit if you pirate video games, unless you try to sell them, leak them, or host them your self.


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## raxadian (Mar 8, 2021)

smf said:


> Software gets copyright protection (life+70 years), chips get mask protection (10 years) and everything else you need to try to patent (20 years).
> 
> But bios is software.



So the CD Sega CD bios are still illegal, good thing most modern emulators don't need them. 

70 years.... Really? Wow.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 8, 2021)

raxadian said:


> So the CD Sega CD bios are still illegal, good thing most modern emulators don't need them.
> 
> 70 years.... Really? Wow.


Nice introduction video to the concept


Also less that it is illegal -- owning a copy and not using it at the same time should be enough just as owning a copy of the game is for games and more that it would be illegal, or indeed unlawful in some places, to distribute with your emulator/clone console.

If you do a cleanroom replication of the BIOS (which emulators may or may not have done -- can't just read the various leaked SDKs or necessarily disassemble a dump, either of which I would bet some substantial money on most of the reimplementations having done, though how easy it is to prove is a different matter) then you could happily include that in most places (Japan might have issues) and still have your clone console.


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## chrisrlink (Mar 8, 2021)

S. Korea has some of the strictest CR laws in the world remember the PubG vs Fortnite (or rather bluehole V Epic) they wanted to drag them to Korean court cause they knew it would be thrown out in US, S.Korea was not always CR friendly until the 90s CR law was non existant reason why they wanted to do it in Korean court was because a basic concept for a game can be copyrighted there think of it this way if GF/nintendo was a Korean company and used the full extent of it's laws Pokemon (or rather  the monster taming rpg genre) could be copyrighted there  and then none of these Pokemon clones could be made (robopon, digimon world (DS Games) ) basicly bluehole copyrighted battle royale genre (with the shrinking danger area in the game) in their homeland

heres an article by forbs explaining it better than me

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomas...fight-with-fortnite-in-korea/?sh=5a2dc37a3901


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## smf (Mar 8, 2021)

raxadian said:


> 70 years.... Really? Wow.



It depends on the country, but the bios isn't old enough for that to matter.



FAST6191 said:


> Also less that it is illegal -- owning a copy and not using it at the same time should be enough



It depends on the country. You might be required to dump your own and not download it from the internet, although most (if not all) countries it wouldn't be criminal to downloaded it.



FAST6191 said:


> then you could happily include that in most places (Japan might have issues)



Some countries have reverse engineering laws that exclude making a clone. It's a real minefield. Although I'm not sure I've heard of sega going after people who do pirate their bios anyway, let alone a re-implementation.


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## DonCaballero (Mar 8, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> *Piracy is a construct of the human mind ego which is based in scarcity. Done. Now everyone piss off with the illegal,criminal theft, illusion bla bla bla.*



Netherlands flag and stoner talk. That checks out.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 8, 2021)

smf said:


> It depends on the country. You might be required to dump your own and not download it from the internet, although most (if not all) countries it wouldn't be criminal to downloaded it.


I have still yet to see any case where dumping it yourself acts as a defence over merely owning it at the time, and can't point to any law saying that or likely to be interpreted that way; most such things tend to be phrased in terms of harms done, and if you own it and did not torrent it and thus distribute it as part of downloading it then harms or counts of infringement get hard to demonstrate.

If you dump it yourself then it is a nice clean way of being sure you have it, and thus why many places dealing in audio, DVD, and in some cases BIOS rips. Some legal snoozefest in the jewel case might say you can make one backup yourself and must get rid of it if you sell it but having that be binding is also dubious.


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## raxadian (Mar 8, 2021)

smf said:


> Some countries have reverse engineering laws that exclude making a clone. It's a real minefield. Although I'm not sure I've heard of sega going after people who do pirate their bios anyway, let alone a re-implementation.



A 2019 Japanese law (allegedly sponsored by Nintendo) means you can get arrested  for simply making a save backup if you did it by "illegal" ways.

Sega is not going after people using their consoles Bios because they are not in the console business anymore.  And because emulators is a way they can keep selling old games.

If a mini  Sega Dreamcasr is ever made it will be thanks to the fans making emulators and reverse engineering the fudge out the thing.    

Meanwhile Nintendo Witch Hunt means for example that not even themselves have a full accurate Nintendo 64 emulator.


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## smf (Mar 8, 2021)

FAST6191 said:


> I have still yet to see any case where dumping it yourself acts as a defence over merely owning it at the time, and can't point to any law saying that or likely to be interpreted that way



These cases never end up in court because they are a waste of time, so you won't see any cases.

I know if you pay a license to store music on computer to play on radio to the public in the UK then you aren't allowed to use music obtained from illegal download sites (including youtube videos that aren't posted by the copyright holder), you can however rip your cd's or download the music from a legitimate music store. You don't need to leave the cd there, I'm not sure you even need to retain ownership of it.

However they don't seem to check, so you technically can do what you want but getting away with something is of course different.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 8, 2021)

Playing to the public is broadcast though which is a whole different kettle of fish.

As far as not making it to court.
We have seen cases wherein people claimed that as they bought CDs with the pirate tax on them in Europe that things were all good, and it being bought by the judge in the case.

Closest I have to anything here is some company in the US was making censored versions of popular films, buying original DVDs as and when they did. They however got pinged for their trouble.

Leaving aside that most cases are for distribution I struggle to believe none ever were all "you fell for my trap card - I owned it at the time of the event in question, here is a copy of the receipt" that were not in turn answered with "did you rip it yourself? No. Well then".


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## smf (Mar 8, 2021)

FAST6191 said:


> Leaving aside that most cases are for distribution I struggle to believe none ever were all "you fell for my trap card - I owned it at the time of the event in question, here is a copy of the receipt" that were not in turn answered with "did you rip it yourself? No. Well then".



How many cases have you seen that didn't involve file sharing?

Also you have a lot of faith in courts to apply laws completely and consistently, when that isn't what they actually do.

You can do something that is against the law, that the courts decide would be disproportionate to apply the law fully in your case.

I assumed this thread is about the law, not whether you will get caught, whether you would be taken to court or what would happen in court if you were.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 8, 2021)

smf said:


> How many cases have you seen that didn't involve file sharing?
> 
> Also you have a lot of faith in courts to apply laws completely and consistently, when that isn't what they actually do.
> 
> ...


Any legal type will tell you a law on the books means next to nothing until it is contemplated in court (especially in a precedent based system). Though I am still also lacking any book law and historic interpretation tends to be more of a "is there a statute specifically prohibiting this action" (and then challenges from exemptions, fundamentals of lawmaking...) and usually with specific penalties. "No?" In that case what harms is the one making the claims alleging happened as a result of this guy's actions?

And a fair few cases -- there have been quite a few where various storage, ripping, transmission, conversion, subtitles (granted that is less applicable here), said censors, and whatever else were the defendants that were not simple dude downloads a torrent/other p2p service from our investigator and more someone is doing something more interpretive. Granted dude downloads a torrent/other p2p would still be a fine case to go with should they have demonstrably owned the game but been too bone idle or incapable of ripping it themselves.
I also can't imagine the EFF and equivalents thereof would not be like flies on shit if this scenario appeared in a court somewhere.


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## smf (Mar 10, 2021)

FAST6191 said:


> I also can't imagine the EFF and equivalents thereof would not be like flies on shit if this scenario appeared in a court somewhere.



My reading of https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117

I would say that when downloading from an illegal download site, you aren't copying the program you purchased. In many cases the downloaded copy isn't identical to the original, it may have been patched to work round drm etc & that causes it's own legal issues. Philosophically you could argue it's still the same game, but the law is clearly written with the intention of you making a copy from a legally purchased one. Even if the end result is bit identical, there is no exemption that explicitly says you can obtain a copy elsewhere. So it seems rather unsafe to rely on an implicit exemption.

Copyright and licensing are different, some copyright holders will give you permission to make as many copies as you like but then license you to use a set number of those copies at any one time. If you have that agreement then you don't need to rely on fair use.

Your DVD example isn't equivalent as that is a clear copyright breach even if you purchased the original as combined works need permission from the copyright holder.

Cases where producing a receipt would be a defense just don't go to court, so a judge would never get to rule on it. It's especially unlikely as a judge would likely rule against awarding any damages, because there was no lost sale.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 10, 2021)

smf said:


> My reading of https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117
> 
> I would say that when downloading from an illegal download site, you aren't copying the program you purchased. In many cases the downloaded copy isn't identical to the original, it may have been patched to work round drm etc & that causes it's own legal issues. Philosophically you could argue it's still the same game, but the law is clearly written with the intention of you making a copy from a legally purchased one. Even if the end result is bit identical, there is no exemption that explicitly says you can obtain a copy elsewhere. So it seems rather unsafe to rely on an implicit exemption.
> 
> ...



The DRM one is a separate issue from where I sit, though I have seen rulings go either way as things might be necessary and even that seems to include provisions for making something work.
Bit identical copies is a potential issue, and that is before we consider whether my having say an emulated copy of whatever N64 game that contains at least theoretically (sometimes we get say a 1.3 that never hit https://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/oot/generalknowledge/version-differences  but we will assume no new censorship or bugfix issues cropped up) identical game to the straight N64 version. That said it is an issue and presumably why many places say roll your own as that little bit of safeguarding. Don't particularly see it as a dealbreaker though as much as an issue the would be downloader has to be concerned with not unlike might get a virus instead.
I can also see a path to an argument of said differences if they are more simple bugfixes and censorship, and not something like a gold edition with all the expansion packs/DLC or indeed a translation*, being some kind of allowable or seriously entertained (even more so if there was a return program, recall or something at the time, maybe even a simple acknowledgement of error which the v1.1 might be a tacit version of -- such a thing presumably not being free to issue or create) or in the case of the BIOS if it conferred no particular advantage (maybe if the difference, functional or more academic, itself between versions did not rise to a copyrightable act being a further contemplation). That however would be an argument you get to make that might fail to persuasive.

*though if the baseline is already established then NTSC English <-> more or less identical PAL English might be where I go next. If it was just a find and replace color with colour type and drop to 50fps for PAL deal then philosophically speaking I don't see any issue. Those parallel translations where Europe might well have got the far superior version then being a different matter. Line could get very hazy as well as things are removed to comply with local standards (think gambling machines removed in pokemon).

Combined works as you call it, derived works as many other places would know it generally, and adaptations as the link to the law text you provided seems to want to call it might well be a separate issue.
If I am playing sneaky/clever lawyer though it seems more a matter of timings
"or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation"
Assuming I am the one doing the censor work with the DVD editor (or computer program if sticking with the narrower restriction there).
Your call/payment to me initially renders you an owner of the baseline DVD (or program) from my stack of them and thus I am now your authorised agent in its modification. You might not be able to sell the modification onwards at a later date (whoo nice bonus for my business I guess) without permission of the holder but that would seem to be the obvious workaround.
Might also go for downloading a cracked version (assuming said download does not have a nice crack separately as many will) if the you then consider said chosen download site your authorised agent. They might be in trouble at some level but that tends to be less your problem and more theirs (that fairly recent  supreme court case about printer toner probably being a good example, though patents more than copyright was the thing used here).

"If you have that agreement then you don't need to rely on fair use."
If doing the 1 cart/dvd = 1 game (or presumably BIOS if continuing with the earlier topic) then that would change things, and I have not seen a game provide me with so many chairs/CPU cores/concurrent users/... like so much OS or productivity software.
Equally if fair use is less restrictive than what the holder might care for -- same as any other contract that might go against what the law says you can include in a contract.

Implicit vs explicit law and restrictions thereof... getting into the fun legal philosophies today (others playing along there is a constant debate in legal philosophy, which also varies between countries and sometimes parts of them, about whether laws merely say what you can't do and all else is presumably legal, and prescribe what it is you can do with anything falling outside that being illegal). UK law tends to be instances of restricted actions, which is why we get idiocy like the response to legal highs laws wherein they decided they could not keep up with "twiddle one useless non functional group and give that a spin", US generally does that too and indeed going against it would be rather counter to their whole history.

I would not disagree with a statement along the lines of "a cautious legal type might not do well to say yeah all good" to such a scenario as discussed here like they might "you are driving the speed limit while in total control under perfect conditions, nothing wrong with that". Equally that law is probably ancient and written by people more ancient and less understanding of computers (or ghost written by industry) and thus did not anticipate such a scenario or actively left it somewhat murky.
If I am sticking with harms done, unfair competition and whatever else that determines things in these sorts of cases I am still lacking anything to say "you must grow enough tech and tech skills and do it yourself/have your computer guy do it for you".
Amusingly enough if the download site had some kind of "by downloading this you agree you are an owner of a copy of the software" type deal that might be further fun.


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## smf (Mar 10, 2021)

FAST6191 said:


> If I am playing sneaky/clever lawyer though it seems more a matter of timings
> "or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation"



You seem to have missed this rather important parts

_(a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.— Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:_

_(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is *created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner*, or

(2) that such new copy or adaptation *is for archival purposes only* and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.

(b) Lease, Sale, or Other Transfer of Additional Copy or Adaptation.—Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program. *Adaptations so prepared may be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner.*
_
I don't see how you could buy something, modify it and sell it without permission with the way the law is written.



FAST6191 said:


> Equally that law is probably ancient and written by people more ancient and less understanding of computers (or ghost written by industry) and thus did not anticipate such a scenario or actively left it somewhat murky.



They may not have envisioned it, but a law was passed that tried to prevent you copying something that you have fair use rights to copy then I do not think it's safe to assume that the legal system would think it's ok to download from an illegal site.

Especially as this will likely have benefited the owner of the site & they tend to try to think of those as organised crime.


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## Zaphod77 (Mar 11, 2021)

The bottom line is distributed copies are infringing unless they are backups given to the new owner at the same time as the originals. and an infringing copy can only be made non infringing by the copyright holder.

Owning a cart doesn't entitle you to download an infringing copy, despite the fact that this does not harm the copyright holder as long as you don't distribute it.

Dumping you own for use with an emulator does count as operational adaptation, but only if you do nothing else with the copy. You can't patch it. You can't even decompile it or view it in a hex editor. Just load it into the emulator and play.  It's a pretty narrow exception.  The intended purpose of the operational adaptation clause is to let you run the installer, which makes a copy of the software on the hard drive, but it does allow a few more things. Cracking the installed copy also counts as use in another manner.

Archival backup has been ruled to only apply if the original was stored on magnetic media in the courts.  It's possible a new case may change this, but until then, the archival backup clause doesn't save you.

b) lets you transfer the backups as long as you also transfer the original.  It also lets you transfer the installed software and the computer along with the install disks.  But if the archival copies are patched by a protection removal program, they are no longer exact copies, and need the permission of the copyright holder to transfer.


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## raxadian (Mar 14, 2021)

Ehem:



When it comes to guides I find text is always better but when it comes to explanations video tends to stay more in  your memory.   

No protection at all? No wonder the Sega Genesis was cloned so much.  

Funny enough Until the late 2000s it was still possible to get a legal Sega Genesis if you bought in Brazil.


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## ihaveawindows (Mar 14, 2021)

Rydian said:


> Piracy: Common Myths​
> 
> *Piracy is theft.*
> This is by far the most common myth.  Piracy is not theft because it does not cause any direct damage or loss to the other party (in fact, whether there's another party at all is sometimes up for debate).  Theft, on the other hand, is a criminal act because in committing an act of theft, you deprive somebody of something.  If I go and take an old lady's purse, _then due to my actions the old lady has been caused a loss_, her purse.  However, when pirating, _nobody loses anything_.  The pirater gains _a copy of_ some digital item, while the person/entity who originally created that item _is completely unaffected by the act_.
> ...


I truly support the anti-piracy community, but here in Indonesia, stopping piracy is harder than it is, piracy in Indonesia is just like real pirates in Somalia. Plus, I just heard a report on a news channel that Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft are reluctant to give development permits to Indonesian game developers because Indonesia is known for piracy (I mean it, we sell homemade PS2 games on online shopping platforms for Rp.7.000,- per disc (around 50¢)), which is sad because I would like to see my country develop and be seen to other countries, and to have a national thing to be proud of other than language, food, and culture.


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## EliteGamerCadeM (Jun 2, 2021)

I always thought I could download iso off the internet if I had the game


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## BlazeMasterBM (Jun 26, 2021)

EliteGamerCadeM said:


> I always thought I could download iso off the internet if I had the game


unfortunately, no. but if you're just downloading isos, it's not likely any legal action will be taken against you


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## chrisrlink (Jun 26, 2021)

I haven't heard in the US (So far) of anyone getting hammered by dling stuff off file host like mega,mediafire etc it's only when you use P2P (torrenting) unprotected or via a free vpn I had cox shut me off once i believe it was  in 2019 because i torrented botw (wii U)(right in the middle of nintendo's E3 presentation no less so long story short i got reinstated and still pirate via file host no warning letters or shutdowns since


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## Deleted member 514389 (Jun 26, 2021)

I'm personally a fan of this:


> During a recent investor's call, Nintendo CEO Satoru Iwata made a fairly surprising observation regarding the piracy that's run somewhat rampant on its two gaming platforms. "I do not think we should attribute bad software sales solely to piracy," Iwata explained.
> engadget.com/2010-10-09-iwata-dont-chalk-up-poor-software-sales-to-piracy.html





NightsOwl said:


> I used to download everything I wanted. But lately I've been buying the games I've enjoyed



This is me lately too.
Helps a bunch that most new games are super boring and I can't find interest in them.
Weirdly enough I'm only playing a GaaS game (Apex) lately...
Nothing else


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## JJ1013 (Jun 26, 2021)

Not sure if I should stay in Venezuela and keep suffering as to not get caught as soon as I set a single foot on Spain or just learn yet another language just to move into a different country.

EDIT: Just read the WIPO link. It's irrelevant, since literally everyone I know pirate stuff, either by buying a CD with the software's name written with a Sharpie marker, or just by outright torrenting. No VPNs, no security, no privacy. Nearly everything here is pirated (not sure if my grandma's Windows 7 is actually pirated -- it seems to be detected as genuine), but everyone I know as far as I'm concerned is a pirate. Even the public state channels grab movies that are supposed to be streaming site-exclusive and AIRS THEM WITHOUT GIVING A SINGLE F̴̵̷̡̼̣̹̟̫̳͍͕̻̳̦̙̪͠ͅU͖̻͍̝͔̜͎̰͚̟̠̗̬͕͟͝C̸҉̵̨͈͖̗͍̦̹̖̦͖̠̣͓͍̟̝͓͍͜K̷̯̦͇̖̹͍͇̞̕.̴̻͚̞͎̟̺̕͜͠



Guess what -- the government is so corrupt that no one cares.


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## Uiaad (Jun 26, 2021)

The thing about piracy is, when you make it easy to buy a game people, people will buy it and piracy will go down. But like things are at the moment with the market fracturing with everybody and their dog wanting their own launcher and storefront, it becomes easier to pirate because it's more convenient too.

I'm not saying Steam was ever perfect, but it worked and people knew there was another sale just around the corner. I remember I would easily drop £100 on Steam during sales and not bat an eyelid. Now half the games I want are on EGS (which I refuse to give a penny to but that is more of a personal thing ) and will usually end up buying them on console.

Now on to the reason, I pirate games ... No one ever seems to put out demos anymore and maybe I have become so jaded over the years, between reviewers who can't afford to get a bad review in fear of upsetting a company and games to fall flat on the hype. So I pirate to see if I would actually play the game and enjoy it. There are very very few series that I would say " yes I'm getting that day one " and companies once they have your money will nickel and dime you at every turn. Once what was something that companies would give you as free, as a thank you for enjoying their products you now pay to get. The prime example here is the Tales of series and you only have to go back to Xillia to see if you have save data from the other tales of games they would give you costumes from the characters of the other games now it's " oh you want your character to look like Milla Maxwell that will be £5 "

There will always be that hardcore element in the world that doesn't want to pay for anything and you will never stop them - You know the ones, the ones that will buy a PS5 in the middle of a shortage and will leave it rotting in its box only popping up on forums to ask if it has been hacked yet and these people, in my opinion, have more money than sense but there is very little you can do to stop them.

Just remember kids, Piracy is a civil matter and not criminal (generally) so next time you pirate Bloggo's Pow it's not a policeman you will be dealing with it's a man in a suit ... probably several men in suits haha (anyone get the Bloggo's pow reference ? or am I on my own ?)


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## vlvt (Jul 16, 2021)

gotta be careful as some countries come down really hard on piracy...even a small download could land you jailtime or a hefty fine


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## Deleted member 569451 (Sep 27, 2021)

The root of the problem is moral relativism which states that people can add or remove rights.

There are natural rights for sentient beings such as humans and higher intelligences.
Natural rights are as true as gravity and electromagnetism. It is a law of the universe.
You can observe the effects of natural laws and understand it. Ignore natural laws at your own peril.

Man-made laws pretend that people can add or remove rights from other human beings.
People use copyright laws to steal money from others.

What happens is that big corporations, not artists or individual creators, claim that they have the right to steal money from others through fine. They don't actually have the rights to steal from others by sending cops and beating the shit out of people.

Copyright laws and patent laws don't just enrich big corporations but also pretend big corporations have rights that they don't have.

Mainstream schools don't teach objective morality so that people live under slavery. Objective morality is one of the most occulted secrets.

If corporations want to make money, they should make paying for a downloadable game easier than downloading it for free. That's it. People will pay for the software support.


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## subcon959 (Oct 5, 2021)

tokineko said:


> If corporations want to make money, they should make paying for a downloadable game easier than downloading it for free. That's it. People will pay for the software support.



They don't even want to make downloadable games cheaper than physical versions so that's never happening. They will just phase out physical releases so there's no comparison/alternative left and then they can charge whatever they want. Too many people will happily pay full price for day one rights and others will cave due to FOMO. It's not going to get any better, so piracy isn't going away either.


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## Gep_Etto (Oct 29, 2021)

tokineko said:


> Mainstream schools don't teach objective morality so that people live under slavery. Objective morality is one of the most occulted secrets.


No such thing as objective morality. All morality is made up by people and therefore subjective. There are no "natural rights" - have you ever seen a fox give up on hunting/eating a chicken because she was nesting her eggs or entered a divinely determined "no fox zone"?


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## eyeliner (Nov 5, 2021)

Piracy is undertaken by peg legged people.


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## duwen (Nov 5, 2021)

Uiaad said:


> The thing about piracy is, when you make it easy to buy a game people, people will buy it and piracy will go down. But like things are at the moment with the market fracturing with everybody and their dog wanting their own launcher and storefront, it becomes easier to pirate because it's more convenient too.


^ This. And it's not just gaming that suffers. Look at the video streaming platforms and how their current implementation is essentially putting a few more nails in the already struggling cinema business.
For example; I was really looking forward to going back to a cinema for the first time in close to two years (due to the pandemic), and had pegged "Dune" as the movie I was going to see... unfortunately, Warner Bros made the dumb decision of not only staggering regional theatrical release dates, but also making it available on streaming platforms ahead of a big chunk of it's theatrical openings. As a consequence I'd already (illegally) seen a lovely 1080p rip of it on my 49" 4k TV a week before it released in cinemas where I am.
I enjoyed it enough that I still intend to see it on the big screen, but when I finally did get the chance to visit the cinema (earlier this week) I instead opted to spend my money on seeing "Last Night in Soho", which hasn't been released on streaming platforms and so hasn't been pirated yet (other than some extremely poor CAM copies that no one in their right mind would watch).

Let's hope that both movies and gaming fair better than the music industry.


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## TomRiddle (Apr 18, 2022)

duwen said:


> unfortunately, Warner Bros made the dumb decision of not only staggering regional theatrical release dates, but also making it available on streaming platforms ahead of a big chunk of it's theatrical openings. As a consequence I'd already (illegally) seen a lovely 1080p rip of it on my 49" 4k TV a week before it released in cinemas where I am.



I think the fact that it's convenient for you to pirate a film like Dune highlights just how bad streaming services had gotten.

In a way streaming services are the very thing they swore to destroy, which was killing off the need to use cable/piracy when you could pay for something so convenient, so cheap and easy that it would be more of a hassle to pirate or subcribe to multiple different cable plans just for a few good channels.

But alas Netflix lost it's way a decade later, it's forgotten it's roots and isn't the same "Netflix" that killed the legendary (almost mythical/unheard of on people now, blockbuster).

For we unfortunately no longer live in the early 2010's when subbing to Netflix and Hulu was all you needed to get all of the content, now there are 5+ streaming services that you gotta get to watch most content you would have seen on Netflix just a couple of years ago.

I'd even argue it's getting to the point now that it's cheaper to find a good vpn to torrent everything as opposed to paying multiple services to make the monthly bill be as tolling as cable once was.

and when a good chunk of the user-base subscribed to Netflix only because, (again it was more convenient), will only make them or other people resort back to either pirating or some other ways then streaming.

To quote the overused (but imo correct) saying in these general discussions about internet piracy:

"The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates." - Gabe Newell.

If Hollywood wants people to stop pirating and consume media legally then they have to go back on providing a service that is convenient if not better then what *said pirates are offering at a price that's generally acceptable by most consumers.

Because otherwise yelling about how "morally superior" it is and banging the war-drum to be against piracy won't help the industry at all, they've been doing that *FOR 20+ GODDAMN YEARS* and internet piracy still hasn't gone away and never will go away in the slightest.    

and it sure won't convince pirates who will find it incredibly annoying instead.

 Maybe this wasn't your specific point or discussion in your last post but I thought that I'd be something to at least point out fully at least as to why people pirate over paying legally in general and in the specific case of steaming vs piracy.


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