# Legality of ROMs



## vegemikee (Jul 2, 2011)

I'm thinking of doing some YouTube commentary with some of my old favourites, but unfortunately I don't have the games on cartridge anymore.
Is there a legal 'grey area' that allows me to hold the files for a certain amount of time before it is deemed illegal?  I remember reading somewhere that you are allowed to hold a backup of a game for 24 hours.  After that, it needs to be destroyed/deleted/whatever.  Not exactly sure if this is true, however that's more than enough time for me to whip up some content and whatnot.
If it helps, I'm from Australia and I'm not exactly sure how the legal system differs between countries in relation to video games, emulation and backups.

All input is greatly appreciated

EDIT: Well, I gave it a shot anyway, so if anyone is interested, you can check out my videos on my channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MickMikka


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## TheDreamLord (Jul 2, 2011)

That was probably in a rom bundle. No its still illegal just to own them for 10 minutes although bunches of lawsuits w ouldnt come after you bt still illegal


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## Ikki (Jul 2, 2011)

It's illegal to download them at all.

But no one will say anything to you. So, if you're okay with it, just do it, no one will notice.


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## vegemikee (Jul 2, 2011)

I want to make sure that whatever I plan to do is safe.
I don't want a bunch of arsehole lawyers going after me just because I did a 5minute commentary on a game that's 30 years old


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## Fishaman P (Jul 2, 2011)

At least in the United States, downloading ANY ROM is illegal, no matter for how long or even if you own the cartridge/disc.


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## Ikki (Jul 2, 2011)

vegemikee said:
			
		

> I want to make sure that whatever I plan to do is safe.
> I don't want a bunch of arsehole lawyers going after me just because I did a 5minute commentary on a game that's 30 years old


Oh, don't worry. They can't know unless you mention it, and they don't watch them.

I have a channel and 100% of it is gameplay of old games I could never get before (now I kinda can, since I have an income). 


Go ahead, no worries.


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## vegemikee (Jul 2, 2011)

Ikki said:
			
		

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And what if I, through wishful thinking, eventually gain a partnership with YouTube and actually begin collecting payments from them?
I might sound ridiculous right now, but I really don't want to be caught in a legal dilemma, if it ever were to occur


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## Demonstryde (Jul 2, 2011)

downloading a rom is not illegal, its called file sharing. prob wouldnt post any mortal kombat games as you are in AUS and its illegal to even own a copy of MK their.


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## Ikki (Jul 2, 2011)

vegemikee said:
			
		

> And what if I, through wishful thinking, eventually gain a partnership with YouTube and actually begin collecting payments from them?
> I might sound ridiculous right now, but I really don't want to be caught in a legal dilemma, if it ever were to occur


Then you can worry about not uploading cinematics from recent games because some companies can give you a copyright strike for that. Three copyright strikes and your account is gone. No lawsuit involved.


There is seriously no way they know you illegally downloaded the games. I'm pretty sure NintendoCapriSun has plenty of emulator stuff and SSoHPKC is (was until not so long ago)constantly doing Super Mario World hacks. They both are pretty big YouTube Partners, SSoH having 190k subscribers and NCS having 110k.

Edit: SSoH is actually doing Super Kaizo World right now.

You really have nothing to worry about. Specially if you upload footage of old games.


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## OmegaVesko (Jul 2, 2011)

Nothing is going to happen, I can guarantee that. As long as you don't mention piracy or ROMs/emulators etc. (and make sure to not record the window itself, just the emulated screen), you'll be just fine.

Just look at 90% of retro Let's Play's on Youtube. They'd all be taken down if recording ROMs was illegal.

EDIT: Pretty much what Ikki said.


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## Depravo (Jul 2, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> downloading a rom is not illegal, its called file sharing.


That depends entirely on the copyright laws of the country you live in. If the file is copyrighted material and you live in a country with strict copyright laws then it IS illegal.


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## AlanJohn (Jul 2, 2011)

Just be a


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## Hells Malice (Jul 2, 2011)

This is like asking if the cops will come after you if you watch porn before you're 18.

Just download the roms and do your thing, who the hell cares if it's illegal...nothing will happen.


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## Deleted User (Jul 3, 2011)

Unless you say, you will not get in trouble.

I know a lot of guide sites and lets players that emulate.


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## Rydian (Jul 3, 2011)

Hells Malice said:
			
		

> who the hell cares if it's illegal...nothing will happen.


lolwut
Translation: That's so inaccurate I have to question if you're just trolling.
See Also: kongsnutz


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## Hells Malice (Jul 3, 2011)

Rydian said:
			
		

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No one cares if you're a pirate. Everyone's a pirate. So nothing will happen. You'd have to be full on retarded to actually think downloading, playing, or streaming yourself playing roms would actually get you in ANY trouble.

Getting in trouble for piracy is probably about as likely as winning the lottery.
Kongsnutz won the wrong lottery. Though didn't he pirate, or upload a game before its release and get caught? I don't even remember what happened. OP is talking about roms of old games, so my statement stands. Nothing will happen.


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## Schlupi (Jul 3, 2011)

People pirating games in their own homes most likely won't be busted. the government has better things to do, they only get one person as an example every once in a while... you'll see it on the news.

Kongznuts=fail. He uploaded a game WEEKS before it was released (A HUGE title too) and of course he'd get trouble for it. We all know Nintendo frequents these forums, Bro.


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## MasterPenguin (Jul 3, 2011)

<!--quoteo(post=902201:date=Dec 15 2007, 03:56 PM:name=Grimalkin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Grimalkin @ Dec 15 2007, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=902201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Piracy, what's legal and what's not</b> <i>By no means should this document be used as a legal reference in court</i> 
<b>Things to do (or in the process of researching): Patents, Trademarks and Emulators</b>
<i>This document is deemed public domain and can be reproduced, or altered freely by anyone. If you have any other information that discredits or contradicts information in this document, PM me on GBATEMP and we'll discuss which has more credibility and I'll add it into this document.</i>

<b>This is a simple report that I have researched (and used a lot of my work time to complete) in order to stop the f**king flaming in stupid legality battles over GBATEMP. This thread is meant only for discussion of facts and is not up for debate. Data used will be facts and not personal opinion. I am by no means, a legal expert and is only interpreting data obtained via internet or by publication.</b>

<b>So, how do we know if it is copyrighted?</b>

In 1952, most, if not all major developed countries met at Geneva and agreed, accepted of acceeded to the Universal Copyright Convention; However, since most of the nations are now part of the World Trade Organization (WTO), the <i>Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS)</i> had been accepted as the international agreement which is now dominent for all nations globally. The TRIPS outlined requirements that each nation's law must meet, such as: <b>copyright rights</b> (including rights of performers, producers of sound recording and broadcasting organizations), geographical indications, integrated circuit layout-designs, <b>patents</b>, monopolies for the developers of new plant varieties, <b>trademarks</b>, trade dress, and undisclosed or confidential information.

A TRIPS member requires their states to provide strong protection for intellectual property.
<i>How to tell if your country is a TRIPS member: your country trades to the United States. Unless under certain circumstances such as war, financial and/or poverty aid.</i>

-Copyright terms must extend to 50 years after the <b>death of the author</b>, although films and photographs are only required to have fixed 50 and to be at least 25 year terms, respectively.(Art.7(2),(4))

<i>Also note that Anonymous work will expire 50 years after the work was deemed public.</i>

-Copyright must be granted <b>automatically</b>, and not based upon any "formality", such as registrations or systems of <b>renewal.</b> (Wait, does that mean this article is copyright too?)

<i>Apparently if the original author dies, the copyright is automatically transferred to closest relative and/or publications office (for another 50 years). I'm not actually sure about this one, but I'll find some sort of source for it later...</i>

-Computer programs must be regarded as "literary works" under copyright law and receive the same terms of protection.

-Patents must be granted in all "fields of technology," although exceptions for certain public interests are allowed (Art. 27.2 and 27.3 [1]) and must be enforceable for at least 20 years (Art 33).

-Exceptions to patent law must be limited almost as strictly as those to copyright law.

-In each state, intellectual property laws may not offer any benefits to local citizens which are not available to citizens of other TRIPs signatories by the principles of national treatment (with certain limited exceptions, Art. 3 and 5 [2]).

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Article 10
Computer Programs and Compilations of Data

1. Computer programs, whether in source or object code, shall be protected as literary works under the Berne Convention (1971).

2. Compilations of data or other material, whether in machine readable or other form, which by reason of the selection or arrangement of their contents constitute intellectual creations shall be protected as such. Such protection, which shall not extend to the data or material itself, shall be without prejudice to any copyright subsisting in the data or material itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is Article 10 (obviously) from the WTO Official Text, which signifies all work/code/compilations/etc. are considered as literary works. What does it mean? Wait, what <b>does</b> it mean...

If we look at the Berne Convention on literary works:

The Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, usually known as the Berne Convention, is an international agreement about copyright, which was first adopted in Berne, Switzerland in 1886.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ARTICLE-2
... (1) The expression "literary and artistic works" shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So under the Berne Convention would cover all aspects of the media, such as: music, graphics (including Three-Dimentional Works), and the coding itself (regardless if it were in machine readable code, meaning the product in it's entirety).

<b>Since the Berne Convention is gigantic, I'll let you guys decide what else is important.  <a href="http://www.law-ref.org/BERN/index.html" target="_blank">Berne Convention Reference</a> In summary, all aspects of the media (which would include ROMs) is held under copyright. Also...</b>

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ARTICLE-11bis
... (ii) any communication to the public by wire or by rebroadcasting of the broadcast of the work, when this communication is made by an organization other than the original one; ...
... (iii) the public communication by loudspeaker or any other analogous instrument transmitting, by signs, sounds or images, the broadcast of the work. ...
... (3) In the absence of any contrary stipulation, permission granted in accordance with paragraph (1) of this <b>Article shall not imply permission to record, by means of instruments recording sounds or images, the work broadcast.</b> It shall, however, be a matter for <b>legislation in the countries of the Union</b> to determine the regulations for ephemeral recordings made by a broadcasting organization by means of its own facilities and used for its own broadcasts. The preservation of these recordings in official archives may, on the ground of their exceptional documentary character, be authorized by such legislation. ...
... <b>(3) In the absence of any contrary stipulation, permission granted in accordance with paragraph (1) of this Article shall not imply permission to record, by means of instruments recording sounds or images, the work broadcast. It shall, however, be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to determine the regulations for ephemeral recordings made by a broadcasting organization by means of its own facilities and used for its own broadcasts. The preservation of these recordings in official archives may, on the ground of their exceptional documentary character, be authorized by such legislation.</b> ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And by "work" we mean...

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ARTICLE-1
... The countries to which this Convention applies constitute a Union for the protection of the rights of authors in their literary and artistic works. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So, we can't even record the sound or images (means video too) of the "work". So, if one were to make a video of the game, record sound from it, or take pictures, we'd be doing something illegal. Even more legal trouble if we try to broadcast it (via spoken, loadspeaker, or through wired-broadcast [including the internet]) we'd be in even more trouble. I'm also assuming that ROMs would fall under accordance to the Berne Convention as a recording of the original publication, which would mean: <b>ROMs are illegal</b>. However, I have yet to uncover anything about owning a copy and making a backup of the original publication(s). But, this would definitely be a loophole a lawyer in court would use against you. The Berne Convention takes priority before the TRIPS (because it was based accordingly to agree with the Berne Convention).

Now back to the WTO and TRIPS...

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Article 11
Rental Rights

In respect of at least computer programs and cinematographic works, a Member shall provide authors and their successors in title the right to authorize or to prohibit the commercial rental to the public of originals or copies of their copyright works. A Member shall be excepted from this obligation in respect of cinematographic works unless such rental has led to widespread copying of such works which is materially impairing the exclusive right of reproduction conferred in that Member on authors and their successors in title. In respect of computer programs, this obligation does not apply to rentals where the program itself is not the essential object of the rental.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Wait... so the original publication can be prohibited from rental? I never knew that. But... the last sentence is a contradiction to the previous statement, how do we deem what's "essential" to the rental or not?

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Article 12
Term of Protection

Whenever the term of protection of a work, other than a photographic work or a work of applied art, is calculated on a basis other than the life of a natural person, such term shall be no less than 50 years from the end of the calendar year of authorized publication, or, failing such authorized publication within 50 years from the making of the work, 50 years from the end of the calendar year of making.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well, I guess I found my answer to my previous inquiry about the expiration of the copyright. So, 50 years is the minimum term of protection, what about the maximum? Such information is not answered in either Berne Convention or WTO's Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights.

<b>End: Copyrights</b>

<b>ROMs, are they legal?</b>

ROMs by itself are not illegal (well, not exactly)..

In some countries, it is legal to make a "backup" copy of the original work. However, this backup cannot be used for entertainment purposes. This copy is to be used to prove that you own the game as an insurance against the original publication owners if the copy of the media is unreadable. In short, if the label falls off of your game cart, it breaks and you try to get a warrenty claim for it, but you can't prove that you owned it originally.

But, guess what?

In the United States, since 1983, it is illegal to make backup copies of video game media to other game cards (Sigh... flash cards). Which was the main precedence in the court case of Atari versus JS&A that their product allowed to create a ROM backup copy to a blank cartidge. In this battle JS&A argued that their product was used for archival purposes only, but the court disagreed, <i>noting that ROM media was not subject to the same volatility as magnetic media.</i>

Poor US, but what about the rest of the world? Still, no luck for anyone...

All manufactured software contains a End-User License Agreement (EULA). This document takes precedence above all media laws because it is a document that deems "fair-use" which is created by the "copyright owners" (See: So, how do we know it's copyrighted?). In most cases (if not all of them, and <b>especially Nintendo</b>), they print inside their game manuals that they disallow backups or archival copies.

After looking through a few of my legal media: Yeah, it's all there, and in normal print too. Now, whether these printings are valid through legal clause in terms of fair dealing; Not sure, but I personally don't want to bring them to court about it. Cases against copyright owners usually favor the copyright owner.

<i>The 24-Hour Claim</i>

Some websites claim that you may obtain ROMs for exactly 24-hours and is deemed "fair use". This claim is completely, and undeniably <b>false</b>. There has never been such a law.

<i>Officially Licensed, Freely Licensed and Unlicensed ROMs, Oh my!</i>

Now, there are some ROMs that have been officially licensed. Atari had made many of their original arcade games available in ROM for to work on the emulator MAME. Nintendo also provides a similar service on their Virtual Console. These are "legal" ROMs.

Freely Licensed ROMs are games/media that is no longer manufactured. However, they only become freely licensed when the original copyright owner announces that the media is "freely licensed" or the copyright holder(s) die and the Terms of Protection officially end (by end of calendar date of 50 years after the death(s)). Freely Licensed ROMs also include Homebrew.

Unlicensed ROMs are games that no longer make any profit and/or no longer able to be obtained in legal form. Legality varies between many countries; however, non-commercial and research use is <b>permitted and legal.</b> Still, some countries ensure that this practice is illegal, downloading abandonware is in vast majority, legal. In fact, there's no law about it in any North American convention!

That said, the legality of some of the NES, GB, SNES and older systems of the 80s and 90s would be legal. However, the games that can be obtained (whether or not it's for the same console) is still illegal. Games such as Super Mario World, which can be obtained on the GBA, would be still illegal -- downloading (note: I did not say distribute) games such as Final Fight, or E.V.O. would be legal until the copyright owner brings the game back into circulation. <b>Unless, the copyright holder states that you are not allowed to download such ROMs.</b> (Yay for loopholes).

Also relevant:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Abandonware (ripped from Wikipedia):

It is often the case that games which are still in copyright are no longer sold or marketed by their copyright holders. This may be due to the perceived lack of demand for the game or for other reasons. Some of those engaged in ROM trading claim that such games should be deemed abandoned by their copyright holders and that the game, termed "Abandonware", can be freely traded by users.

This invokes the concept of Abandonment from trademark law, whereby trademarks which are no longer exploited by their holders become abandoned. While this concept exists in trademark law, there is no equivalent concept in copyright law. In fact, the copyright laws of most countries, including all signatories of the Berne Convention, grant copyright holders the exclusive right to distribute, or not distribute, a work until such time as the copyright expires under law or is granted to the public domain by the copyright holder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And also:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Commercial distribution (Taken from Wikipedia)

Commercial distribution of copyrighted games without the consent of the copyright holder is generally illegal in almost all countries, with those who take part in that activity being liable for both criminal and civil penalties.

Online auction sites such as eBay have sometimes been used by sellers to sell unauthorised copies of games which are advertised as legitimate copies. Such sellers, in addition to violating copyright laws, may also be prosecuted for fraud and/or false advertising.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So, I took a look into the previous quote from Wikipedia, apparently, we cannot sell media that we own. It is deemed commercial distribution and very illegal by copyright standards. Which is also funny, what if we trade in our games at a GameStop or EBGames? Technically, that would be commercial distribution on the consumer end. (Who knows, I'll add that to my list of things to research).

<b>End of Document: I'll add patents, trademarks and emulators later, but I'll tell you something before I post it. Emulators are illegal, regardless of it's purpose and how the end-user uses the software. (Unless it was created by patent/copyright holder and licensed)</b>

REFERENCES:
The WTO official text, retrieved via internet, Dec 15, 2007, <a href="http://www.wto.org" target="_blank">http://www.wto.org</a>
The Berne Convention Cross-Reference, retrieved via internet, Dec 15, 2007, <a href="http://www.law-ref.org/BERN/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.law-ref.org/BERN/index.html</a>
Nintendo's Intellectual Property FAQ, retrieved via internet, Dec 15, 2007, <a href="http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp" target="_blank">http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp</a>
10 Big Myths about copyright explained, retrieved via internet, Dec 15, 2007, <a href="http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html" target="_blank">http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html</a>
Copyright FAQ: 25 Common Myths and Misconceptions, retrieved via internet, Dec 15, 2007, <a href="http://users.goldengate.net/~kbrady/copyright.html" target="_blank">http://users.goldengate.net/~kbrady/copyright.html</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


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## ZAFDeltaForce (Jul 3, 2011)

Now I'm no lawyer, but as far as I know, there is no grey area for the downloading of the ROMs of commercial games

If you don't own the original title, downloading it as a ROM is illegal
Even if you own the original title, downloading a ROM as a "Backup" is illegal
Downloading a ROM for the sake of parody, review or criticism is illegal

Long story short, no matter what, downloading ROMs of commercial games is illegal

EDIT:


			
				vegemikee said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of doing some YouTube commentary with some of my old favourites, but unfortunately I don't have the games on cartridge anymore.
> Is there a legal 'grey area' that allows me to hold the files for a certain amount of time before it is deemed illegal?  *I remember reading somewhere that you are allowed to hold a backup of a game for 24 hours.*  After that, it needs to be destroyed/deleted/whatever.  Not exactly sure if this is true, however that's more than enough time for me to whip up some content and whatnot.
> If it helps, I'm from Australia and I'm not exactly sure how the legal system differs between countries in relation to video games, emulation and backups.
> 
> All input is greatly appreciated


That rule is merely some silly rule thought of by pirates out of their guilty conscience in "reducing the severity of their actions". (It does not by the way)

It by no means reflect any law of any country (As far as I know of course)


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## Nathan Drake (Jul 3, 2011)

I have to ask about the 24 hour rule.

Various sites I've gotten game files from, whether they be NDS games, PSP games, or otherwise, will say that you need to delete the file within 24 hours, presumably for legal reasons. Assuming that downloading the file at all is illegal; is it somehow less illegal if you only hold the file for 24 hours?

Edit: Oh look, was answered above probably either shortly before, or shortly after I hit the post button. :3


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## vegemikee (Jul 4, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the input, and MasterPenguin especially.
So correct me if I'm wrong... if I downloaded an old retro game that isn't available on any other platform anymore via various format (VC, XBLA, etc) then the grey area states that it's legal for me to download said game?


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## spinal_cord (Jul 4, 2011)

vegemikee said:
			
		

> Thanks everyone for the input, and MasterPenguin especially.
> So correct me if I'm wrong... if I downloaded an old retro game that isn't available on any other platform anymore via various format (VC, XBLA, etc) then the grey area states that it's legal for me to download said game?
> 
> According to Trademark law I think you are OK, but According to Copyright law you would not be. However, if what I read in that document was correct, then it is up to the copyright holder to force restrictions. So if the original publisher doesn't know or doesn't care, then you are safe.
> ...



Downloading roms is 100% *illegal* it's called *Copyright infringement*. Even if the game is 30 years old, as long as the Copyright holder says you can't have it, then it's illegal.


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## m3rox (Jul 4, 2011)

spinal_cord said:
			
		

> Downloading roms is 100% *illegal* it's called *Copyright infringement*. Even if the game is 30 years old, as long as the Copyright holder says you can't have it, then it's illegal.



You stole my argument.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

in the USA here. anyone got a source for their knowledge on such, cus i thought the millenia act stated that you could own a digital copy of any media you already own a copy of...if you own the game you can also have 2 backup copies.


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> in the USA here. anyone got a source for their knowledge on such, cus i thought the millenia act stated that you could own a digital copy of any media you already own a copy of...if you own the game you can also have 2 backup copies.


nope that's completely wrong. You're not allowed to make back up copies of music, movies or games. Some copyright holders will allow you to create backups of their movies, books, music, games, but it's entirely up to the original copyright holder. In the case of most video games you aren't allowed to make backup copies of the games even if you own them, as it says so in just about every instruction manual that comes with the games.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

ok i know im not crazy and i know i did not imagine the CNN story i watched on this topic not but 1 yr ago. the bald guy with large teeth was stating very addimentely that the new laws stated that if you own.. lets say, "The Wrath of Khan" and you paid for said media,,, you could then make any sort of backup on any format you desire,,, like making a parody of it and posting it on youtube, he then went on to say you could even upload the whole movie in (however long a youtube video can run) bits.  someone else must know of what i am speaking of...


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> ok i know im not crazy and i know i did not imagine the CNN story i watched on this topic not but 1 yr ago. the bald guy with large teeth was stating very addimentely that the new laws stated that if you own.. lets say, "The Wrath of Khan" and you paid for said media,,, you could then make any sort of backup on any format you desire,,, like making a parody of it and posting it on youtube, he then went on to say you could even upload the whole movie in (however long a youtube video can run) bits.  someone else must know of what i am speaking of...


I don't think that guy knows what he's talking about. Either that or he's talking about movies that legally give you permission to make a back up or upload said movie to the internet. By most copyright standards it's illegal to have a backup and even more so to upload it to the internet for others to view/make a copy of.

Also it is legal in some countries to do what the guy on CNN spoke of, but in the US it is not, unless the copyright holder approves of said actions.

Here's a pic i just scanned of Legal Info from The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks manual



Spoiler


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

syko5150 said:
			
		

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Seriously am i the only one who heard of this when the DMCA was announced?????? google it. the DMCA (in the USA) circumvents said copyright laws....friggin A man.

EDIT: it is only illegal when you decide to make monetary gain from the backup ....such as making a backup and distributing for money...your saying ... if i backup my vhs to a dvd its illegal .......well then the ignorance here is far to great to comprehend, i applaud those who hold their heads in a hole and continu to spew such nonsense....WTF


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

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DMCA is only for digital stuff. You can't technically own digital stuff like movies or music since you can't physically possess the product. It's more like you paid full price to rent it for as long as you want, or are capable of keeping it considering the file could become corrupt or lost over time. It allows you to make a backup of something you purchased and downloaded from say Amazon or iTunes, but it doesn't give you the right to make a back up of a DVD you actually own a physical copy of.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

syko5150 said:
			
		

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nope...all electronic media IS DIGITAL..............VHS, DVD, MP3, Cassette


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

no... its not illegal to make backups... you didnt read what i said in the last post.. if its illegal to make any backup even if you own the damn media then is illegal for you to put you music CD's on your media player.. anyone and everyone with a mp3 player would be violating this law....think about it.


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> no... its not illegal to make backups... you didnt read what i said in the last post.. if its illegal to make any backup even if you own the damn media then is illegal for you to put you music CD's on your media player.. anyone and everyone with a mp3 player would be violating this law....think about it.


And you're not listening to anything I've said....I clearly said earlier that SOME media allows you to back up, but others don't. It's all up to the copyright holder. Many blu-ray movies come with a digital copy when you buy it to put on your portable media devices. Other media like video games are illegal to back up even though so many people do it anyway.If the copyright holder allows you to or states that you're allowed to make a backup for personal use then its fine. If they say it's not ok to back up their stuff then it's not.

Edit: Also most people who have portable media players don't rip music or movies from their personal discs or buy them from Amazon or iTunes. The vast majority of people just download everything illegally from file sharing sites.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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pretty sure there is a warning like that somewhere on a CD !!!!!!!!!! are you agreeing to the fact that its not "ILLEGAL" to backup your music media to your mp3 device VIA a music CD?


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

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Yes, I agree that music is allowed to be backed up from your personal discs, however not all movies allow you to do this. As i stated many movies are starting to come with a digital copy for you to use on portable media players, but other movies still do not allow this. Video games will at least for now never allow this to happen. That's why we keep hearing about Sony fighting people from playing backups on the PS3.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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hmmmmmmmm i dont think you can even hear yourself... as the music CD's state that they are not to be copied... but Wait... oh thats right, movies and games share the same statement?????????? why is this so hard for you to get across... why is it ok to violate the rights of a CD but not anything else??????your argument is flawed and you have just stated so.


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

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The difference is that they sell devices(MP3 players) that allow you to play music that you bought legally. Is there a LEGAL way to play backup copies of video games? NO!!! there isn't. I honestly don't think there ever will be a LEGAL way to play backup video games. You obviously can't play your backups of games on the device those games are intended for, at least not without modifying it first.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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pretty sure you can make a backup of any game you own with a dumping device and run it on a flashcard.....how is this any different than putting your music cd on your music device?  DERP......you keep stating the same thing over and over man. i hear you.. the media will state not to copy and distribute it. but the USA laws say you can make a backup , the laws also state that it is very illegal to make a copy of something and sell the copy.


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

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you cant legally buy a flash cart though...you can go to any store and buy a MP3 player...flash carts are considered illegal because they are primarily used for piracy.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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wow... false yet again.. the very first time i ever saw a flashcart was on the shelves of Wal-Mart called "games 'n' Music".  and if it were illegal to buy one, then they would not ship to the USA.  jeez man, your runnin out of ways to deflect your argument....


EDIT: show me the source that states that a flashcart is illegal in the USA, i know that its not illegal to buy or own one in the USA, ...... however....... it is illegal in some countries, the USA not being one of them.


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## Fluto (Jul 4, 2011)

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I just posted because this is a very long quote and i wanted to make it longer  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Also to add Nintendo dosent like flashcart because, stereotypicaly when someone mentions "Hack" or in this case "flashcart" it would make one think of piracy. Some people dont even know what homebrew is.


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

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It's illegal to play your backups of games so therefore its illegal to have backups of them...why can't you get that through your head? having a flashcart with no memory card in it is a useless device it does absolutely nothing. If you put games on the cartridge it makes it illegal to use. Stop trying to justify your illegal playing of "backups"


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## Deleted User (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> pretty sure you can make a backup of any game you own with a dumping device and run it on a flashcard.....how is this any different than putting your music cd on your music device?  DERP......you keep stating the same thing over and over man. i hear you.. the media will state not to copy and distribute it. but the USA laws say you can make a backup , the laws also state that it is very illegal to make a copy of something and sell the copy.
> What about this:
> QUOTE[The DMCA] Makes it a crime to circumvent anti-piracy measures built into most commercial software.


In my opinion this makes it illegal to make a backup of your game because it has anti-piracy measures, which should also be mentioned on the game's box.
source


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## Nathan Drake (Jul 4, 2011)

The Games N' Music, although technically a flash cart, had no capabilities beyond being able to run some homebrew, and having the ability to play music. In short, it was basically an MP3 player for the DS. Thus, it was marketed a lot like an MP3 player.

Trying to call it a flash cart in the sense that we refer to them today is just grasping.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

at least rea the full argument before you blindly take sides, as to the gams n music , i know cannot play backups of games, yet they did take them off shelves... saying that flashcarts are illegal in the USA is a false statement, plain and simple, flashcarts are NOT illegal i the USA. syko has already agreed that it is ok to backup your music cd even though it has the same statements as other media. why is it ok to backup your music files disregarding the same statement of other media?????? Double standards?????? helloooooooo guess im the only one here who can think logically.... and no i havent used my AK2i since i bought a 3ds, though i still think and know its right and not illegal to backup your OWN FRIGGIN media... if you are against game backups then you are against putting music CD backups on your mp3 device.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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nice you googled DMCA and copy pasted the very first line.... how bout the last?
States explicitly that "[n]othing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use..."


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## ThommyDude (Jul 4, 2011)

its simple, if you own the game in real life, having the rom of it is no problem, making back-ups isn't illegal... and they can't check if you own them unless they come by your house, and people are to lazy for that. so unless the cops come to your place and find all the ROM's and see that you don't actually own the games you have nothing to worry about!

Greetz Thommy


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> at least rea the full argument before you blindly take sides, as to the gams n music , i know cannot play backups of games, yet they did take them off shelves... saying that flashcarts are illegal in the USA is a false statement, plain and simple, flashcarts are NOT illegal i the USA. syko has already agreed that it is ok to backup your music cd even though it has the same statements as other media. why is it ok to backup your music files disregarding the same statement of other media?????? Double standards?????? helloooooooo guess im the only one here who can think logically.... and no i havent used my AK2i since i bought a 3ds, though i still think and know its right and not illegal to backup your OWN FRIGGIN media... if you are against game backups then you are against putting music CD backups on your mp3 device.


I don't care one way or another if you pirate or buy a legitimate copy of something. That isn't my concern at all. You can do anything you like, but the fact is many record companies are fighting digital distribution of their music because people can easily make copies and spread it all over the place. Most people don't even consider if its legal or not they just do it out of convenience for themselves. It probably is illegal to take a CD and rip it to the computer because people tend to do that and file share the songs to other people. MP3 players are sold so people who download music from Amazon or iTunes can store their songs and take them on the go. I don't think they're intended to allow people to store their CDs on them. Flash carts are illegal as soon as you put illegal files(games) on them. Simple as that. Takeshi's post sums it up pretty nicely. There are antipiracy measures on DS games so it makes it illegal to play backups since you have to disable the antipiracy measures to play them. Theres a reason why you can't just make a copy of a PS3 game on a backup blu-ray and stick it in the PS3 and play...


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## ThommyDude (Jul 4, 2011)

syko5150 said:
			
		

> I don't care one way or another if you _*pirate*_ or buy a legitimate copy of something.


how the f**k do you pirate a legitimate copy?! doesn't that make it NOT legitimate??


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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omg you didnt just say that did you.... ok im done here as i have obviously won this argument.... what kinda retard says that mp3 players were meant only to put music you have downloaded from amazon or itunes... god the friggin ignorance of this bag of useless meat is almost unbearable... you must be like 14 to make a statement like that, lols logging this a WIN ....Good night yall its 5:20 AM here and i hope no one takes this guy seriously from now on. if you want to say anything else about my position on this topic please read the full quote on the previouse pages as you will see how dillusional this mindless waste of space is.


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## Nathan Drake (Jul 4, 2011)

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If you had an ability to type, I may have taken the time to read through your absolutely terribly formatted "argument." Really though, you were just being a know it all ass from the get go.

Enjoy the sleep, maybe you'll come back a more bearable individual.


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## Deleted User (Jul 4, 2011)

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Thanks!


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

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can you not read? it says i dont care one way or another if you pirate OR buy a legitimate copy. its not the same thing take your time and read it next time please.


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## ThommyDude (Jul 4, 2011)

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it looked like this to me "pirate a legitimate copy OR buy a legitimate copy" that is how i read it, but it was supposed to be "pirate a copy OR buy a legitimate copy"
my mistake, thats what you get when you are dyslectic... i apologize for the misunderstanding.


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## syko5150 (Jul 4, 2011)

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sorry about going off on you like that...the other guy just got me frustrated with his pointless arguments.


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## prowler (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> omg you didnt just say that did you.... ok im done here as i have obviously won this argument.... what kinda retard says that mp3 players were meant only to put music you have downloaded from amazon or itunes... god the friggin ignorance of this bag of useless meat is almost unbearable... you must be like 14 to make a statement like that, lols logging this a WIN ....Good night yall its 5:20 AM here and i hope no one takes this guy seriously from now on. if you want to say anything else about my position on this topic please read the full quote on the previouse pages as you will see how dillusional this mindless waste of space is.


It differs from place to place.

Here in the UK, it's illegal to rip a CD, even if you bought it or not and you are definitively not allowed to copy it to a MP3 player or your iPod.

Edit: And this goes for anything but if the CD/DVD contains copy protection, it is illegal to rip it on to your computer/MP3 player/iPod


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## Depravo (Jul 4, 2011)

We seem to have gone off on a tangent. Can we keep the discussion *specifically* about the legality of showing footage of downloaded ROMs on Youtube?


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## indask8 (Jul 4, 2011)

In France we pay a tax (well... only on the product we buy in France...) that allow us to copy a cd/tape etc... on another support as long as we didn't circumvent a copy protection mechanism (if so then it's illegal).

As for the cartridge, it's supposed to be an indestructible media so we don't have the right to copy them.

EDIT: completely off topic, should have read the first post. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




For Youtube it would be better if you own the original game, but I've never heard of game company suing for a youtube video of someone who didn't own the game, especially if it's a old one.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

wow... seriously, it is NOT illegal to put your music CD onto your mp3 device, if it is illegal they why the fuck does windows have windows media player with a rip function and a Sync function to put your ripped music onto your mp3 device? if its illegal then windows must be an illegal operating system. sorry its off topic and has gone so far but this is just ridiculous. i would have stopped posting many quotes ago if it had not gotten this stupid.  if in america you cannot rip your shit then why does the biggest OS have a rip function and every mp3 player i buy tell you how to rip your music?


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

god this is pissing me off..... how bout removing all the other posts then and destroy the quotes......you obviously did not read them as they DO pertain to this topic even though it was technically music, but the point was that you can violate one while the other is taboo


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## spinal_cord (Jul 4, 2011)

This is quite an argument!

The way I see it in regards to console games is - if you own the original copy and make the backup yourself from that original, then it is _less illegal_. However, because the act of backing up the copy requires the protection to be circumvented, the the act of backup up the original is illegal. Downloading a backup someone else made is illegal because you didn't make that backup yourself from your own original. Using that backup, regardless of weather you own the original or not is illegal as the copy protection must be circumvented (in more ways than one) in order to make it run. 

You can legally copy a CD to your personal mp3 player because the music industry as a whole has *accepted* and allows this to happen. The video game industry does not allow this, therefore, as the copyright holders tell you you can't, copyright law states that doing so is illegal.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

wasnt aware that anti piracy measures are circumvented at the point of the dump... they do however get circumvented at the load of the rom.....having a backup does not circumvent the anti piracy measure....


EDIT: on topic enough? or am i going to be silenced again???? dont see the other off topic posts removed. feelin a bit of a hate wave commin at me.


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## spinal_cord (Jul 4, 2011)

Demonstryde said:
			
		

> wasnt aware that anti piracy measures are circumvented at the point of the dump... they do however get circumvented at the load of the rom.....having a backup does not circumvent the anti piracy measure....
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Flash carts circumvent security to load in the first place, the newer ones (DSi and later) actually have some commercial game roms (or part of) to fool the system, as well as whatever security was on the DS in the first place, which had to be bypassed in the first place. Commercial roms have to be heavily patched in order to run from a flash cart, they are programmed to access official Nintendo carts only, and their program code has to be changed so that they load from and can access the flash cart.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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but dumping it from a cartridge dumper does not circumvent the anti piracy.. its only when you load the rom that it bypasses the anti piracy, so just own a copy is not illegal.... also, would you need to bypass the security to run a dump on a pc with a DS emulator?


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## alex_0706 (Jul 4, 2011)

in europe it legal to hold a copy for yourself
if you contribute them your doing is illigal


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## spinal_cord (Jul 4, 2011)

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afaik DS games (or the cartridges) are encrypted, they would need to be decrypted before they can be run.


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## Demonstryde (Jul 4, 2011)

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so you can dump them without bypassing security....so....if you dump a rom it is not illegal to own. i have never used a DS emulator on a pc, does anyone here who has used one know if you need to still bypass anti-piracy with the emulator? i ask because it would seem that the emulator would not care if its a legit copy or not as it is not created by nintendo and does not, prob would not do the same security checks as a ds system would, resulting in you needing to bypass the piracy measure.


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## Linkiboy (Jul 10, 2011)

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no$gba is made by the guy who cracked the encryption of the DS and, as such, it can play encrypted games. However, the legality of that is still in a gray area. Remember when the HD-DVD encryption keys were leaked a few years ago? And how Microsoft was sending out lawsuit threats under breach of DMCA?


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