# GameStop refuses to sell Consoles bundled with Digital Games



## jonthedit (Sep 17, 2015)

I feel GameStop should go out of business. 
On a serious note, why physical? Digital is the way to go, especially with all the great deals available on digital copies! Then again, I do not buy new games. I rarely pay more than $5, so I can not give a good opinion on "NEW" bundles. Perhaps someone who is willing to pay full price for digital VS physical will have a more definitive opinion.


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## Langin (Sep 17, 2015)

I wish they did that over here in Europe, digital games may cut costs a bit but it annoys me so much as collector -_-" I seriously prefer physical copies over digital but I guess thats a problem of mine. =3=


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## vayanui8 (Sep 17, 2015)

As someone who like the have a physical collection I'm rather glad they did this. Its always bugged me when theres an exclusive version of a console based on a game I like, but the game is installed digitally, forcing me to choose the look of the console or the game on my shelf.


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## Youkai (Sep 17, 2015)

Same here, when I buy something I want to hold it in my Hand if possible.
Especially with games. Maybe I am to old but I am still allways sad when I buy a new game and there is no nice Booklet included ^^V

I still remember good old times when I took the train to the next big electrics store to buy my new PC game (sometimes even skipping school) 
and when I was riding back I was allways reading the booklet and beeing totaly anxious to play.

(and sometimes getting angry and starting to shout like some idiot because the game didn't run thanks to bugs and whatnot... still good old times)


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## Vanth88 (Sep 17, 2015)

Why physical? I just bought the PS4 Destiny bundle and in case you're wondering how is it? I wouldn't know. It took an entire day to download the game and it's still downloading an update after launching the game. You wanna know why physical? because unless the company (in my case Sony) can keep up with the depends of an ever-growing digital-only community, then why the hell would anyone buy digital if they can't even play the game? I also bought Last of Us (digital) and it's still downloading.

With that being said I own a lot of steam games, and even on launch day for AAA games I've always been able to download from them at full speed (4mb/s for me). So digital-only isn't all bad.. it's just not all companies can handle that right now. Nintendo is also slow as fudge but.. honestly I can only hope they upgrade their servers for NX.


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## Deboog (Sep 17, 2015)

Wow. I've hated Gamestop for years but I'm happy with this. I've always resented paying for storage when the retailers could pay for it for me.


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## Deleted User (Sep 17, 2015)

I only like digital for small things like VC and Indie.


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## LoggerMan (Sep 17, 2015)

I like the convenience of digital games, but I always regret owning digital games when it comes to selling them after I'm sick of playing them.


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## TecXero (Sep 17, 2015)

I prefer physical copies on console, as digital copies are too DRMed for my liking, but I still think that's an anti-consumer desicion on GameStop's part. By denying people the choice in their store, I imagine people that prefer digital will just go elsewhere.


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## Deboog (Sep 17, 2015)

LoggerMan said:


> I like the convenience of digital games, but I always regret owning digital games when it comes to selling them after I'm sick of playing them.


That's probably why Gamestop is taking their stance. They want people to sell the bundled games back to them later on.


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## Tigran (Sep 17, 2015)

Vanth88 said:


> Why physical? I just bought the PS4 Destiny bundle and in case you're wondering how is it? I wouldn't know. It took an entire day to download the game and it's still downloading an update after launching the game. You wanna know why physical? because unless the company (in my case Sony) can keep up with the depends of an ever-growing digital-only community, then why the hell would anyone buy digital if they can't even play the game? I also bought Last of Us (digital) and it's still downloading.
> 
> With that being said I own a lot of steam games, and even on launch day for AAA games I've always been able to download from them at full speed (4mb/s for me). So digital-only isn't all bad.. it's just not all companies can handle that right now. Nintendo is also slow as fudge but.. honestly I can only hope they upgrade their servers for NX.



Hasn't stopped Physical games anyways.. Just look at MGS for the PC...

Or all the day one updates.


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## Deleted User (Sep 17, 2015)

I've always prefered physical games. With that said I'm slowly being won over to digital copies because most games have updates and DLC so the data on the disk is rarely the entire game. Still, physical copies do give people jobs so thats a huge plus.


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## CathyRina (Sep 17, 2015)

Okay gamestop doesnt want money then.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 17, 2015)

Sorry, only digital game service I'll use is Steam. It's like Gamestop doesn't want my money.


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## TecXero (Sep 17, 2015)

the_randomizer said:


> Sorry, only digital game service I'll use is Steam. It's like Gamestop doesn't want my money.


I wouldn't even use that. Humble and GOG are good, though.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 17, 2015)

TecXero said:


> I wouldn't even use that. Humble and GOG are good, though.



Never had a problem with Steam or GOG, the latter of which has no DRM whatsoever. Gamestop can suck it.


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## sporkonomix (Sep 17, 2015)

Digital distribution kills First Sale Doctrine, and forces gamers to get games from a single "official" source. It kills the timelessness of a game; games on today's systems (and their DLC) will disappear when the servers go down and/or the companies go bankrupt.

There's a reason NES, SNES, Genesis, etc games are still celebrated: they can be found in person and lots of people have played them second hand. They've been passed down through families, to friends, sold and resold again. They've stayed relevant in the gaming community. Digital games and DLC will be a blip on the radar compared to physical games that can still be experienced 30 years from now. I say this as someone who's been gaming since 1987. I've researched where the industry used to be, experienced a great portion of what it's been through, see digital-only games cheapening gaming's cultural impact and value to society. Where will today's games be 30 years from now? Rotting on old hardware, assuming the mass-produced, poorly made parts even hold up that long. Gaming is being treated as if it is disposable, instead of an art form and a piece of culture.


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## Online (Sep 17, 2015)

its a shame a lot of game manuals have been converted digital and preloaded on the cartridges themselves, tangible material is always good and I'm glad many in this thread still prefer physical copies of gamez.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 17, 2015)

I recall a few years ago I wandered into a Game in the UK wanting to buy a console. All they had was third party bundles that the shop/warehouse and shrink wrapped together.

That said I have no particular feelings about this move. I certainly do not disapprove of it though.

Equally nobody has yet managed to convince me second hand is a bad thing and I still have to laugh when people try. Hopefully Steam and everybody else gets forced to allow easy trades/sales some time soon.


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## aaronz77 (Sep 17, 2015)

Yes. Destiny is a perfect example of how digital sucks, especially when you're an occasional gamer who has only a few minutes to play. Why can't the console keep your games updated and ready to play? Like um.. Steam??!


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## Wekker (Sep 17, 2015)

Langin said:


> I wish they did that over here in Europe, digital games may cut costs a bit but it annoys me so much as collector -_-" I seriously prefer physical copies over digital but I guess thats a problem of mine. =3=



Digital copy isn't cheaper. It could be cheaper if the physical copy sale is way higher than the digital copy. If digital copy becomes the standard, then the digital copy pricing will be same as the physical copy was.


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## Lumstar (Sep 17, 2015)

Pretty obvious including digital copies with a console is a manufacturing cost reduction detrimental to the average user. Why should I have to wait for a game to download immediately after buying a console? Large mandatory installs are disappointing enough, being historically limited to PC games.


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## grossaffe (Sep 17, 2015)

Yes, they refuse to sell it because customers want to resell the bundled games, not because they can't make money off of digital games multiple times.


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## Veho (Sep 17, 2015)

sporkonomix said:


> There's a reason NES, SNES, Genesis, etc games are still celebrated: they can be found in person and lots of people have played them second hand. They've been passed down through families, to friends, sold and resold again. They've stayed relevant in the gaming community. Digital games and DLC will be a blip on the radar compared to physical games that can still be experienced 30 years from now. I say this as someone who's been gaming since 1987. I've researched where the industry used to be, experienced a great portion of what it's been through, see digital-only games cheapening gaming's cultural impact and value to society. Where will today's games be 30 years from now? Rotting on old hardware, assuming the mass-produced, poorly made parts even hold up that long. Gaming is being treated as if it is disposable, instead of an art form and a piece of culture.



I think you are romanticizing a piece of plastic, and your only experience seems to stem from consoles and that has left you severely biased. I have been gaming since 1987 too, but the platforms I started on were the Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum and Atari 800XL and the Amiga, and my games ran off audio cassettes, and later on they ran off floppy disks, and later still they ran off the hard drive and the medium was never a part of the game, and later systems were backwards compatible so the platform wasn't part of the game either, and I say you are looking at the past from your perspective only and making connections where there are none. The best games have been ported and emulated and are still being played today even though the hardware is no longer around. Games that have had equally as large an impact as (S)NES games, that are played today even though not a single original medium or original box they ran on remains. 

The reason games you speak of stayed relevant is because they were good games to begin with, not because the original hardware still works, and most of the people nowadays who play the old games play them on emulators and other machines. Everyone has played Pac-man or Tetris, not because they're bought/borrowed/inherited the original arcade machine, and not because the original hardware is still available, because "it can be found", but because it has been ported everywhere, and because it's fun. Games are not limited to their original hardware or the medium where they were once stored, and if people play them 20 years later it is because of the game, not because they happen to have the tangle of tubes and wiring it used to run on, or the plastic they were distributed on. If a game is bad, the mere fact you can pass it on won't save it from oblivion. 

Online-only games get custom and pirate servers while the game is still officially supported, and there are ways of running them long afterwards, until a point in time where it gets a port, re-release or what have you and become supported again one way or the other. If a game fizzles out once support is gone, it wasn't that good of a game in the first place. If a game is good it will be played long after its original era/generation/platform has kicked the bucket *(*and long after the "mass-produced, poorly made parts" - actually faster, more powerful and more efficient parts that inevitably come with the trade-off of being more sensitive; long after said parts rot away*)*, and 30 years from now games that deserve to be played will still be played, just like old games are (or aren't) played today. True, consoles are harder to crack, have patchy and inconsistent backward compatibility, and it takes longer for them to become emulated well enough to run games, and this is why to someone who plays only consoles it may seem that the only way to be able to play a game is to still own functioning original hardware, readable original storage media and working original online support, but for a large number of games, and a large number of gamers this is not true and never was.   

A game's quality and draw has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone bothered to stamp out a few disks for someone who wants to caress and/or resell it. How does the fact a game is or isn't "digital-only" affect the gameplay, the design, the story, graphics, interactions, genre, any single part of the game? You don't use the data storage in any way when you play the game, it is no part of the experience. A game's quality has nothing to do with how it got onto your screen. 

You may believe games are dropping in quality in recent years, they aren't as good or as fun or as impactful as the games of yesteryear, but even if this weren't just a case of nostalgia goggles, there are other, way more relevant reasons for it than digital distribution.


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## Deleted User (Sep 17, 2015)

Veho said:


> I think you are romanticizing a piece of plastic, and your only experience seems to stem from consoles and that has left you severely biased. I have been gaming since 1987 too, but the platforms I started on were the Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum and Atari 800XL and the Amiga, and my games ran off audio cassettes, and later on they ran off floppy disks, and later still they ran off the hard drive and the medium was never a part of the game, and later systems were backwards compatible so the platform wasn't part of the game either, and I say you are looking at the past from your perspective only and making connections where there are none. The best games have been ported and emulated and are still being played today even though the hardware is no longer around. Games that have had equally as large an impact as (S)NES games, that are played today even though not a single original medium or original box they ran on remains.
> 
> The reason games you speak of stayed relevant is because they were good games to begin with, not because the original hardware still works, and most of the people nowadays who play the old games play them on emulators and other machines. Everyone has played Pac-man or Tetris, not because they're bought/borrowed/inherited the original arcade machine, and not because the original hardware is still available, because "it can be found", but because it has been ported everywhere, and because it's fun. Games are not limited to their original hardware or the medium where they were once stored, and if people play them 20 years later it is because of the game, not because they happen to have the tangle of tubes and wiring it used to run on, or the plastic they were distributed on. If a game is bad, the mere fact you can pass it on won't save it from oblivion.
> 
> ...


I prefer disc PC games.


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## Maximilious (Sep 17, 2015)

I love physical copies as much as all of you, but lets face it - it's not what it used to be. Games anymore are coming pre-packed as installer or license files that allow digital content to be downloaded. This is backed by cheaper operation costs and overhead by the gaming companies allowing them to put capitol elsewhere in their companies. It won't be too long until as the OP said, consoles go full digital.


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## jumpman17 (Sep 17, 2015)

I will always take physical discs over digital. When Microsoft decides to ban my account and console, essentially killing all of my digital content, the physical discs will still be there and available to me.


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## rdurbin (Sep 17, 2015)

I will always prefer digital over physical.  My main reason is its a nice way to keep all your games organized in one spot and do not need to switch discs to play another game.  Its very convenient.  Overtime physical games were have wear and tear and eventually stop working where as digital will work just fine (as long as your hard drive holds out).  The ability to store multiple games in one location was my original reason for getting a ds flash cart and this was before everyone started doing digital downloads for console/portable systems.  There also some other advantages like on ps3 when you buy a digital game you essentially get two copies of it, which is nice for multiplayer online games  (granted they sort of did away with this on ps4)


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## The Real Jdbye (Sep 17, 2015)

vayanui8 said:


> As someone who like the have a physical collection I'm rather glad they did this. Its always bugged me when theres an exclusive version of a console based on a game I like, but the game is installed digitally, forcing me to choose the look of the console or the game on my shelf.


I agree with this and many other posts in the thread. It's nice to see someone making a stand against everything going full digital when everyone else seems to be moving in that direction, even if they are only doing it for their own gains by making sure used game sales still continue it benefits everyone who prefers physical copies as well.
I wonder what this will mean for Nintendo's limited edition bundles though. Every single one is digital nowadays, and if they were to do a physical one for just GameStop they would have to work that out with Nintendo themselves since most of the bundles are Nintendo's own games.


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## TheNintendoEnthusiast (Sep 17, 2015)

I always prefer to have physical copies of games rather than having a digital copy. I like keeping them all. Digital is cool, but these days you can fill up your internal HD quickly with the size the game is, that isn't including the massive updates every game seems to have, or the DLC for the games. I was a bit disappointed when I got the Xbox One Master Chief Collection Edition and it was a digital copy of the game.


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## Deleted User (Sep 17, 2015)

neim81094 said:


> I always prefer to have physical copies of games rather than having a digital copy. I like keeping them all. Digital is cool, but these days you can fill up your internal HD quickly with the size the game is, that isn't including the massive updates every game seems to have, or the DLC for the games. I was a bit disappointed when I got the Xbox One Master Chief Collection Edition and it was a digital copy of the game.


IKR? The Courier came with my XB1 in the morning and I didn't get to play the multiplayer portion till the next day.


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## Maximilious (Sep 17, 2015)

The Real Jdbye said:


> I wonder what this will mean for Nintendo's limited edition bundles though. Every single one is digital nowadays, and if they were to do a physical one for just GameStop they would have to work that out with Nintendo themselves since most of the bundles are Nintendo's own games.



It's hard to say. Honestly, I think Nintendo would stand by this at least for the NA audience for the N3DS at least. We always get shafted it seems with the bundle editions that other locations get, and I believe it's due to the issues with Legit CIA. They may potentially like this idea, but there definitely is extra overhead in cart production, box engineering, etc. that they may not be thrilled in taking on.


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## chavosaur (Sep 17, 2015)

It always continues to surprise me on the stance that people take on physical games versus digital games. 

Just to play devils advocate and throw a scenario at you, do you just as many of you that preferred the physical copy of games also prefer the physicality of movies and music? Do you still continue to purchase CDs to this day and do you still continue to purchase Blu-rays and DVDs? Does the physicality of that media matter to you as much as the physicality of the gaming media? 

It is not that I don't understand the mentality of having a physical library. I also like to look at my little collection of games that I have assembled over the years but even I can understand that eventually much like music, that medium will most likely go away in the coming years. 

Granted I know that the physical media of movies still exists so I know that it won't die out completely. But I do believe there is an inevitability that gaming will soon continue to move towards a more digital space and the physical copy will eventually either cease to exist or be the afterthought.


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## zero_g_monkey (Sep 17, 2015)

I have to say I love my physical copies of games. As long as I have a console that works, I can still play the game. This is not so for digital games though. When the company shuts the servers down (for whatever reason), you can no longer play your game. If they would take a stance to give a lifetime license in this instance, it would not be so bad. What really turned me off on large digital stuff (eshop games and minis don't really matter) is a few years ago, I wanted to play a game on my PS3. I had not loaded the game is well over a year since actually finding time to play something this time consuming was impossible at the time. I had recently moved to a place that had absolutely NO INTERNET or cell signal for that matter (or I could have just tethered my phone long enough to get a hit back), and the game would not load. It informed me that my license was not up to date and I could not play a game I had purchased. Needless to say, I wasn't happy. I haven't purchased anymore digital PS3 games since.

But here is the other side. Digital is "supposed" to be faster. I honestly think it is up for debate on speeds. There really shouldn't be much loading times in games like that. If say a company wanted to do an install disc with physical media. That would be cool. You have a disc to play later and the check could be the old "insert disc even though we aren't really using it" deal. Regardless, it is all about the money side of things.

On the story topic. I don't care for Gamestop because of their employees and never buy anything from them in stores. I do use the online store since I like my purchases to come in a sealed package in hopes of getting everything (i.e. those Club Nintendo cards when they were in use or an instruction manual). Another thing is how they were price gouging during the Xenoblade release. Our local store on release day was selling "used" copies for $90 a pop. Used games just suck n my opinion and I have terrible luck due to is maybe taking 6 months to a year to get a chance to play it and no longer being able to return a damaged game. At least they are taking a stance in saying that if "Joe buys this console with a game bundled with it, then Joe should be able to trade the console back in with said game for a little extra value."


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## FAST6191 (Sep 17, 2015)

chavosaur said:


> It always continues to surprise me on the stance that people take on physical games versus digital games.
> 
> Just to play devils advocate and throw a scenario at you, do you just as many of you that preferred the physical copy of games also prefer the physicality of movies and music? Do you still continue to purchase CDs to this day and do you still continue to purchase Blu-rays and DVDs? Does the physicality of that media matter to you as much as the physicality of the gaming media?



Ignoring channel usenet then yeah kind of. If the day comes that my downloadable games are as lendable, resellable, tradeable and otherwise as functional for that sort of thing as the physical goods are then I will switch, I do not even mind having to sort my own backups/storage. Music kind of already went there and videos are contemplating it, some games are heading there and I have purchased several of those.


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## Hyperstar96 (Sep 17, 2015)

sporkonomix said:


> Digital distribution kills First Sale Doctrine, and forces gamers to get games from a single "official" source. It kills the timelessness of a game; games on today's systems (and their DLC) will disappear when the servers go down and/or the companies go bankrupt.


If you're referring to Steam, Valve has made it clear that they'll remove the DRM from all Steam games if Steam ever shuts down.
But that's one of the perks of piracy: even thought it's often used for getting current games illegally, it's also the main method of playing older games, even download-only. How would people have been able to experience Earthbound Zero before a few months ago without the ROM being distributed and the anti-piracy edited out? How many people who play non-VC Game Boy games today are playing them through their actual cartridges? It's still technically illegal, but it's also a necessary evil that preserves these timeless games.


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## The Real Jdbye (Sep 17, 2015)

sporkonomix said:


> Digital distribution kills First Sale Doctrine, and forces gamers to get games from a single "official" source. It kills the timelessness of a game; games on today's systems (and their DLC) will disappear when the servers go down and/or the companies go bankrupt.
> 
> There's a reason NES, SNES, Genesis, etc games are still celebrated: they can be found in person and lots of people have played them second hand. They've been passed down through families, to friends, sold and resold again. They've stayed relevant in the gaming community. Digital games and DLC will be a blip on the radar compared to physical games that can still be experienced 30 years from now. I say this as someone who's been gaming since 1987. I've researched where the industry used to be, experienced a great portion of what it's been through, see digital-only games cheapening gaming's cultural impact and value to society. Where will today's games be 30 years from now? Rotting on old hardware, assuming the mass-produced, poorly made parts even hold up that long. Gaming is being treated as if it is disposable, instead of an art form and a piece of culture.


Well, under EU law, resale of digital copies of games is completely legal and the publisher/distributor cannot deny that right no matter what the EULA might say, so the First Sale Doctrine actually still applies in this case. However, Valve has yet to comply with this law.


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## Qtis (Sep 17, 2015)

I've bought only a few physical games here and there during the last few years. As someone who has a couple of boxes full of old games from NES to present generation, I haven't touched any of the physical games pre-PS360 generation. Why? They're all in digital format. A few Everdrives and a soft mod here and there have made the cherished physical carts obsolete. Think what you may of backup loaders and flashcarts, but they are the reason why I don't need to have a whole bookshelf for plastic that will both wear the console and readers. Nevertheless, I still buy a few games here and there in physical format if it can't be had otherwise (which could be an issue for pre-PS360 generation, but we know how well everything is available).

As for Gamestop, this is a purely financial decision. Don't think the consumer is the winner here as Gamestop makes the best profit out of used games


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## Deboog (Sep 17, 2015)

Qtis said:


> I've bought only a few physical games here and there during the last few years. As someone who has a couple of boxes full of old games from NES to present generation, I haven't touched any of the physical games pre-PS360 generation. Why? They're all in digital format. A few Everdrives and a soft mod here and there have made the cherished physical carts obsolete. Think what you may of backup loaders and flashcarts, but they are the reason why I don't need to have a whole bookshelf for plastic that will both wear the console and readers. Nevertheless, I still buy a few games here and there in physical format if it can't be had otherwise (which could be an issue for pre-PS360 generation, but we know how well everything is available).
> 
> As for Gamestop, this is a purely financial decision. Don't think the consumer is the winner here as Gamestop makes the best profit out of used games


As a consumer I enjoy being able to buy used games.


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## Taleweaver (Sep 17, 2015)

I...can't understand what the situation is really like.

The way I see it, physical and online games each have their strengths and weaknesses
Physical can be resold, will continue to work as long as the medium isn't broken, but it's somewhat more expensive. Oh, and it has the possibility to own and collect.
Online is more convenient to get and drops price faster after release, but the trade-off is that you can't trade it in. With services like steam, there's also the chance your content may no longer work if your account is blocked (or if valve theoretically goes bankrupt). 

Obviously, stores that thrive on second hand don't like the digital platform. They're the proverbial middle man that drives up prices (online services are more like a marketplace where the developer sells directly to the consumer). So gamestop's decision isn't so much logical as unavoidable.
What I don't understand, though, is whom they are trying to impress. Sony has a pretty popular thing going with their PS+-thing, and I don't think anyone's forgotten how MS's announcement of the xbone went (they had to 180 because nobody was going to buy their console if you couldn't resell your games). I don't see why major publishers EA and ubisoft would give in to them either. Each physical disk they deliver is one less sell on origin/uplay.

I'm inclined to label this move as a desperate gambit, but I'm not sure. There is certainly a market for physical games. I'm just not convinced that it's still large enough to just forego all "that online stuff". They could be digging their own grave with this (not that I think anyone minds THAT  ).


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## Zeriel (Sep 17, 2015)

Ok I'm normally not on Game Stop's side but I'm going to completely agree with them. I hate buying a console with a bundled
game only to receive a godamn code. I lost my copy of Link Between worlds because I couldn't do a system transfer (stupid Nintendo feature) and also since the digital cost the same as Physical then there is NO benefit for me whatsoever! I can't trade it in, I can't sell it,
I can't collect it, I can't lend it to my friends, so what the fuck?

I hate digital unless there is a benefit that out weights the downsides, like a discount for example, but as it stands digital has no benefit to consumers, only to the developers. I'm praying Nintendo doesn't go full retard/digital because the Wii U will be my last console from them and I'm not alone. A lot of people realize Digital only is almost never consumer friendly.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Sep 17, 2015)

Meh, not like you can't get these bundles elsewhere, only thing that will happen is Gamestop might see a few less sales. Boohoo.


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## Zeriel (Sep 17, 2015)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> Meh, not like you can't get these bundles elsewhere, only thing that will happen is Gamestop might see a few less sales. Boohoo.



They will see increased sales, who would buy a digital bundle when you can get a physical copy instead? It's pretty genius actually because everyone who's smart will go for the physical copy that they can sell or trade in later.


*We need to support Physical games*

The industry wants digital to be the norm, they give less to the consumers and a lot more power to them, they eliminate trading, borrowing and selling, they kill the used market, they save millions in shipping and packaging, they don't even have to sell you finished games because they can patch them later and best of all, they can still charge you full price for something you don't even own! You only got the rights to use it temporarily! It's a win win win for big companies and a big fuck you for consumers.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Sep 17, 2015)

Zeriel said:


> They will see increased sales, who would buy a digital bundle when you can get a physical copy instead? It's pretty genius actually because everyone who's smart will go for the physical copy that they can sell or trade in later.


Because not everybody gives a shit about physical copies? If you honestly think someone is going to abandon buying a bundle they want purely because it only has a digital code you're fucking delusional  A majority of gamers don't care, most gamers don't wank over collections and boxarts.


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## chavosaur (Sep 17, 2015)

Agree with Tom on this one. I'm not going to support physical copies when digital distribution makes things incredibly simple. 

My library of games on consoles is almost entirely digital and I am perfectly fine with it that way. I don't have to worry about a scratched or broken disc or cartridge, I don't have to deal with the clutter of stuff all over the place or deal with the space the cases take up, and it's all easily accessible. 

There's a generational difference in thinking at play here. My brothers have grown up in the age of 360 and Xbox One era, and simply don't give two shits about discs anymore. They just download the game and play it. They just care about the game, not some dumb piece of cover art in a box that might have a piece of paper in it.


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## GameSystem (Sep 17, 2015)

I bet if America didn't have such a garbage internet infrastructure, a lot less people would mind. What are we, like ranked 18th in the world? Once we get gigabit connections across the nation and your digital games download in a few seconds, there will be less complaining.


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## Smuff (Sep 17, 2015)

I'm old. I grew up with vinyl and VHS. I like to see and feel something physical when I drop £50+ on something.
I've managed to embrace *buying* (cough) music, books and films in digital format but for some reason I look forward to getting an actual package delivered into my hand when I buy a new game.
Perhaps I seem a little confused, but like I said I'm old


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## calagan (Sep 17, 2015)

It just reminds me how EVERYONE got mad (not just GameStop) when Sony released what is IMHO their coolest-looking console, the PSP Go, getting rid of the dreaded UMD physical media.

It looks like most people are getting along with the program and that neither physical media, nor GameStop will be around much longer.


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## FusionGamer (Sep 17, 2015)

What? That's pretty much all of the Wii U bundles right there. No wonder the Mario Maker bundle is WalMart exclusive.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Sep 17, 2015)

GameSystem said:


> I bet if America didn't have such a garbage internet infrastructure, a lot less people would mind. What are we, like ranked 18th in the world? Once we get gigabit connections across the nation and your digital games download in a few seconds, there will be less complaining.


This is also a thing, for the most part, though for different reasons. The problem with the average internet speed in the US isn't because of slow speeds in general, it's because the US is stupid big and the average speed tests don't really end up as being all too accurate when compared to tiny (in comparison) countries like South Korea or Japan. We have a national average of like 12mbps, despite the fact that most states have average speeds of like 25mbps+ nowadays (which is comparable with the averages of Japan and South Korea which are at the top of the list). 

20mbps+ is still slow though, especially when you're talking about downloading the 50gb games that are released today


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## Zeriel (Sep 17, 2015)

This is why PC will always be above consoles, the only benefit to consoles was having the physical copy. So now you don't own the game, cant trade it or sell it, have long install times and long ass patches. The console is basically a DRM machine and if physical copies go away consoles will follow them. Why pay 500$ to play a game on lower specs? what are the benefits exactly? and when the console breaks or the servers are taken down then you don't own any of your games! 

I haven't heard a single argument here that makes me think Digital is better than Physical, Honestly I'm surprised so many people support digital, you're trading a lot of your liberties for a false sense of convenience because it won't be easier downloading a 50GB game on the crappy USA internet.


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## Qtis (Sep 17, 2015)

Deboog said:


> As a consumer I enjoy being able to buy used games.


Nothing is stopping companies making digital goods compatible with used games. This will probably require some kind of licence selling system, but it's far from being an unreasonable future.. Hopefully at least the EU will step up here. Steam probably has the infrastructure ready even now, since I highly doubt valve would not prepare for this kind of change


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## Zeriel (Sep 17, 2015)

Qtis said:


> Nothing is stopping companies making digital goods compatible with used games. This will probably require some kind of licence selling system, but it's far from being an unreasonable future.. Hopefully at least the EU will step up here. Steam probably has the infrastructure ready even now, since I highly doubt valve would not prepare for this kind of change



Money is stopping them, it's a lot cheaper to just drop physical once Digital catches on. Publishers also are praying for the day they can get rid of Gamestop for good. I'm not a huge fan of Gamestop but you got to admit they brought us a ton of cheap PS3 and 360 games! but people seem to forget this. Once the companies have a digital monopoly they can control the prices however they want, and they're not competitive or consumer friendly like Steam.


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## TecXero (Sep 17, 2015)

I wouldn't mind a digital only console, but only if there were a few requirements met:

1: Their store isn't the only source for games or they have a lot of discounts. I don't like the idea of them not having any competition (used games) and no reason to keep from just blowing up the prices.

2: No DRM, or at least a patch to remove the DRM towards the end of the console's commercial lifespan. I like to backup my own games. I can also take any physical game I have and put it in another system, it's not tied to just the one system it was first played on. Like my SNES, if something happened to it, I could just get another SNES and shove the cartridges in it and it should work.

That won't happen in the foreseeable future, so I'll be sticking to physical games on consoles and handhelds.


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## IpsoFact0 (Sep 17, 2015)

Physical always & Forever.


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## Foxchild (Sep 17, 2015)

While I'm old school and prefer physical copies of pretty much everything, let's face it, Gamestop is fighting the future here.  Whether it happens in 10 years or 50, all media will eventually be digital, minus the oddball special edition of something.  While I appreciate their efforts to slow things down, as they're buying time for those of us who like the physical, the reality is, if they are truly that dependent on used game sales, they need to come up with a new revenue source.  Adapt or die, Gamestop, adapt or die.


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## Taleweaver (Sep 17, 2015)

Zeriel said:


> The industry wants digital to be the norm, they give less to the consumers and a lot more power to them, they eliminate trading, borrowing and selling, they kill the used market, they save millions in shipping and packaging, they don't even have to sell you finished games because they can patch them later and best of all, they can still charge you full price for something you don't even own! You only got the rights to use it temporarily! It's a win win win for big companies and a big fuck you for consumers.


If course they'll need to restrict things. Otherwise everyone would just copy-paste games around. Yes, it's a drawback of digital games that you can't resell 'em, but don't you think it's a bit ironic that you claim to be supporting supporting games by reselling them? Either you love games and you collect them (in which case it really doesn't matter that much if they're physical or digital...the latter just takes up less shelve space), or you don't care about games enough to keep them. You can't have the argument both ways.

_they save millions in shipping and packaging_
Yeah...no. "Perhaps" it's a bit less...not every game directly sells in the millions. I already made the argument that the difference in price somewhat comes your way in the end (digital bundles drop in prices much faster).

_they don't even have to sell you finished games because they can patch them later _
The "they don't even have to sell you finished games" part is bullshit. It happens with physical media just as much. It's just that you haven't had a traumatic experience with it that makes you project it onto ALL the games out there.


_for something you don't even own! You only got the rights to use it temporarily!_
Check out the console section sometimes. Going by some people, physical disks break faster than...than...than a buggy windows release*. It might be temporarily, but thus far all my digital games work fine. Which is far more than I can say about the physical games I've bought over the years (and yes, I treat those well). Also: GoG.

_It's a win win win for big companies and a big fuck you for consumers._
You do know that the digital distribution network has lowered the bar a lot for indie studio's, right? A lot of gems would never have seen the light of day if those small studios had to cough up the huge costs of creating and distributing physical media.
But even if, for sake of the argument, we leave all the small studios out of the equation: who are you to decide the consumers (hey! that's us!) are getting fucked? I can buy, download and install games on launch day without even leaving my couch. I don't have to rely on the mailman or have to go camping in front of a game store, let alone drive around a lot if I'm in a rural area (I'm not).
If the download breaks...meh. I'll just start a new one (assuming I can't resume from that point). Compare that to what would happen if you notice a broken disk. It's back to the store and complaining and dealing with shopkeepers who treat me like the dirty pirate I often am**.


*it's too late at night for a snappy response here
**the irony here is that I can find digital games so cheap I just buy it and don't even bother to visit shady sites with half-assed cracks and require you to jump through hoops to play an outdated version of a game.


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## tbb043 (Sep 17, 2015)

Good on you, Gamestop. This has increased the likelihood that I'll by my next console from them from zero to very high. Wish other retailers would take a similar stance, tho.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 17, 2015)

Taleweaver said:


> If course they'll need to restrict things. Otherwise everyone would just copy-paste games around. Yes, it's a drawback of digital games that you can't resell 'em, but don't you think it's a bit ironic that you claim to be supporting supporting games by reselling them? Either you love games and you collect them (in which case it really doesn't matter that much if they're physical or digital...the latter just takes up less shelve space), or you don't care about games enough to keep them. You can't have the argument both ways.



Everybody can copy and paste music around and it still manages to get sold, hell my 3 meg MP3/AAC audio track quite nicely fits on an email where my 4 gig game (possibly even 50 megs) is a pain in the arse for many to send over standard internet connection ( https://xkcd.com/949/ ).
Likewise reselling a game, or buying someone else's resold game, is different to not supporting the game industry -- it is an accepted part of life that if you have something you can sell it on, there may be contracts in the way and there may be lease/rental/licensing agreements that alter that in some manner (and if game devs want to try for that then by all means explore alternative models). However it seems many downloadable options want to price their offerings at around the same price and lack that feature, it rather rankles when there is a price disparity* for apparently similar items.

*go back through my post history and you can probably find me supporting the option to sell things at different prices to different people whenever that comes up, I certainly price whatever I see rather differently between people/entities. I reckon I can hold both points of view at the same time though.


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## sandytf (Sep 17, 2015)

As a collector, the ability to transfer games between consoles is very important to me. At some point, any given locked digital release will become unavailable. If consoles were indestructible, then this would be less of a problem, but unfortunately, consoles only have a limited lifespan. Additionally,  there will be no way to buy or aquire a game once the publisher removes it from their store or servers.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 17, 2015)

Vanth88 said:


> Why physical? I just bought the PS4 Destiny bundle and in case you're wondering how is it? I wouldn't know. It took an entire day to download the game and it's still downloading an update after launching the game. You wanna know why physical? because unless the company (in my case Sony) can keep up with the depends of an ever-growing digital-only community, then why the hell would anyone buy digital if they can't even play the game? I also bought Last of Us (digital) and it's still downloading.
> 
> With that being said I own a lot of steam games, and even on launch day for AAA games I've always been able to download from them at full speed (4mb/s for me). So digital-only isn't all bad.. it's just not all companies can handle that right now. Nintendo is also slow as fudge but.. honestly I can only hope they upgrade their servers for NX.


A physical game would download updates anyways. That, and you don't need to download them straight away - you can download them in the backgound as you play. In fact, you don't even need to download the whole game - you can play titles as they download as long as the main binary went through already, and that's usually a small file.


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## loco365 (Sep 17, 2015)

It's both a good idea and a bad idea, honestly. While it means that you'll have a physical copy (Which you can sell when you're done with the game), if the store runs out of that particular title, that means that you will either have to wait or not get that particular physical bundle if the game has to be sold separately.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 17, 2015)

sandytf said:


> As a collector, the ability to transfer games between consoles is very important to me. At some point, any given locked digital release will become unavailable. If consoles were indestructible, then this would be less of a problem, but unfortunately, consoles only have a limited lifespan. Additionally,  there will be no way to buy or aquire a game once the publisher removes it from their store or servers.


Then make backups of your digital games - it's quite easy, unlike making backups of discs for most "unhacked" consoles. The lifespan of an optical disc is 10-20 years of average use, the lifespan of digital releases is indeninite and only depends on your own backup habits.


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## osirisjem (Sep 17, 2015)

chavosaur said:


> As a purveyor of digital games, I find the stance understandable but a little silly. How do you feel about this move? And what is your stance on the timeless Physical vs Digital argument? Should GameStop be scared ?



I think DVD sales are going to be strong and Blockbuster has nothing to fear.
I highly doubt Netflix will be popular.
I think GameStop will be a valid business for many decades to come.


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## Zeriel (Sep 17, 2015)

osirisjem said:


> I think DVD sales are going to be strong and Blockbuster has nothing to fear.
> I highly doubt Netflix will be popular.
> I think GameStop will be a valid business for many decades to come.



Tell me again why I need a console if every game is digital? Why can't Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo release for PC then?
Why the fuck would I pay 500$ just to have a weak ass hardware and a way for companies to physically DRM me?? That's BS


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## Guinea (Sep 17, 2015)

Thats BS... there the SAME thing as consoles without bundled games, just a game included... NO DIFFERENCE!


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## osirisjem (Sep 17, 2015)

Zeriel said:


> Why the fuck would I pay 500$ just to have a weak ass hardware


Because that's all you can afford.  And your Mommy bought you a Console for Christmas.


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## Zeriel (Sep 17, 2015)

osirisjem said:


> Because that's all you can afford.  Any Mommy bought you a Console for Christmas.



Wow dude learn to speak English before you try to annoy someone, I feel bad for you, don't they have schools in Canada?


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## flame1234 (Sep 18, 2015)

Foxi4 said:


> A physical game would download updates anyways. That, and you don't need to download them straight away - you can download them in the background as you play. In fact, you don't even need to download the whole game - you can play titles as they download as long as the main binary went through already, and that's usually a small file.


Some developers don't have this quite figured out yet. Or the amount of data required to play is huge compared to the total data, so it takes a long time anyway.
PS3 was and is very bad in this area and they have learned - it's much better on the PS4. Some data can be tagged non-critical, meaning it will be installed last and you can begin play without having installed it.

I see this as a win-win.
-More disc-based games. That's good for Gamestop.
-Disc-based game can be resold and therefore has some residual value. That's good for the customer.
-It costs a bit to manufacture the disc and case, and also it costs a bit more to ship a disc instead of a piece of cardboard with a code printed on it. That's bad for the console maker, but not catastrophic.

NX will sell well. Because every Nintendo handheld system sells well for reasons I don't fully (or even partially) understand.
Somehow, I don't think consumer-focused decisions like whether region controls will be in place or how games are distributed will factor into its success. NDS was really good in terms of consumer value. 3DS is medium because it can't play other-region games like NDS can.

NDS sold 150 million units in 9 years (2004 - 2013).
3DS has sold 55 million units in 4.5 years (2011 - now). 3DS is doing a lot worse than NDS, but still pretty well. I think it's a function of smartphone usage now rather than the lack of an ability to play other region game.

There was a huge backlash against Microsoft digital-only game proposal and that allowed Sony to "win" E3 in 2013, easily and wow, that was a huge Microsoft blunder. It's two years later. Nintendo will not make the same mistake. Games will be available from day one both physically and digitally like they are on PS4, Xbox One and Wii U. Digital offers convenience but lower value which is why some gamers won't stand for a system that doesn't allow the digital / physical choice.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 18, 2015)

flame1234 said:


> Some developers don't have this quite figured out yet. Or the amount of data required to play is huge compared to the total data, so it takes a long time anyway.
> PS3 was and is very bad in this area and they have learned - it's much better on the PS4. Some data can be tagged non-critical, meaning it will be installed last and you can begin play without having installed it.
> 
> I see this as a win-win.
> ...


The backlash was not over digital only, but over console-locking discs, preventing resale.


Zeriel said:


> Tell me again why I need a console if every game is digital? Why can't Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo release for PC then?
> Why the fuck would I pay 500$ just to have a weak ass hardware and a way for companies to physically DRM me?? That's BS


For the same reasons why you buy consoles today - it's cheap, plug and play, convenient and comes with a guarantee of optimal performance with no upgrades required later down the line. The strength of consoles lays in standardized hardware, something the PC will never enjoy, hence longer API's, more overhead and thus more computing power required for the same tasks.


Zeriel said:


> Wow dude learn to speak English before you try to annoy someone, I feel bad for you, don't they have schools in Canada?


His post is just fine, your reading comprehension is not - kids don't get to choose, they play on whatever consoles the parents buy and it's hard to convince a parent to get you a $2K+ rig for playing New Super Mario Bros. 8.


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## MidLevelCrisis (Sep 18, 2015)

How about a digital licence with every physical copy, and let us decide for ourselves if it is worthy of our hard drives. I only go digital if I dont really care much about it. And while we're at it, how about bringing back decent manuals with background information and some art, one page quickstart leaflets make me cry inside.


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## Zeriel (Sep 18, 2015)

MidLevelCrisis said:


> How about a digital licence with every physical copy, and let us decide for ourselves if it is worthy of our hard drives. I only go digital if I dont really care much about it. And while we're at it, how about bringing back decent manuals with background information and some art, one page quickstart leaflets make me cry inside.



One of the few replies that makes sense on this thread. This would be the best solution but the problem is that games are so huge now days that they need to be downloaded. The advantage of having a console is over, a digital only console is nothing more than a DRM device so you are forced to play 1st party games on their home console. The funny thing is that the only one who can even afford to do this is Nintendo, most games on PS4 and Xbox are 3rd party and on PC anyway. I can see consoles disappearing within the next 5-6 years.


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## Hells Malice (Sep 18, 2015)

Regardless of their motive, I approve. I despise consoles coming with a digital game. I imagine it also hurts plenty of retailers because a person can easily just buy the bundle, use the game code and then return it. The average retail employee gives absolutely no shits or wont even know to check.
I'm sure that also weighed into their decision.



TecXero said:


> I wouldn't even use that. Humble and GOG are good, though.



You wont use the most successful and streamlined gaming service ever created?
Get outta here you fuckin' hispster.


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## DJPlace (Sep 18, 2015)

the only way i got digital is so i don't have to pay FUCKING NY SALES TAX. for PSN games anyway


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## Armadillo (Sep 18, 2015)

Foxi4 said:


> TThe strength of consoles lays in standardized hardware, something the PC will never enjoy, hence longer API's, more overhead and thus more computing power required for the same tasks.
> .



Completely off-topic, but isn't dx12 meant to help/minimise the overhead?


Back on topic.

I'm completely digital on pc and happy with that. Codes being available from multiple places, means competition and decent prices, just like physical.


Consoles, I'm all physical. Digital prices are absurd here. Most retail games on psn are £49.99, some are even £54.99. Meanwhile the physicals are £39.99 on release, if that. The publishers can jog on with those prices on digital.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 18, 2015)

Armadillo said:


> Completely off-topic, but isn't dx12 meant to help/minimise the overhead?


Minimize? Yes. Eliminate? No. At the end of the day, there are millions of possible PC configurations and only one configuration for consoles, occasionally two if a console has a stopgap upgrade. Performance has to be impacted by this unless the application is virtualized in which case the hardware doesn't matter, the performance of the virtual machine does, but that makes no sense on consoles since the whole point is being closer to bare metal.

As for your price complaint, two little words: sales and PSPlus. You can find good bargains on the PSN store, especially during holidays, and PSPlus should keep you busy with discounts and IGC.


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## Magnus87 (Sep 18, 2015)

jonthedit said:


> I feel GameStop should go out of business.
> On a serious note, why physical? Digital is the way to go, especially with all the great deals available on digital copies! Then again, I do not buy new games. I rarely pay more than $5, so I can not give a good opinion on "NEW" bundles. Perhaps someone who is willing to pay full price for digital VS physical will have a more definitive opinion.




I prefer Physical version. I play it but also I collect it .
On july I bought a Wii U with SM3DW and  NintendoLand. I hate it, both game are installed on my WiiU. Now I need to buy again 2 games D:


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## Zeriel (Sep 18, 2015)

Wow finally the smart people came out to discuss this, I was having a brain hemorrhage trying to explain how bad it would be for consumers if only Sony / Microsoft controlled the digital prices.



Foxi4 said:


> Minimize? Yes. Eliminate? No. At the end of the day, there are millions of possible PC configurations and only one configuration for consoles, occasionally two if a console has a stopgap upgrade. Performance has to be impacted by this unless the application is virtualized in which case the hardware doesn't matter, the performance of the virtual machine does, but that makes no sense on consoles since the whole point is being closer to bare metal.
> 
> As for your price complaint, two little words: sales and PSPlus. You can find good bargains on the PSN store, especially during holidays, and PSPlus should keep you busy with discounts and IGC.



Wow you need to stop fanboying for consoles because nothing you're saying really makes sense. Development overhead? Who cares when you're forced to pay 400-500$ for hardware when you already own a PC! a 200$ video card can run every console game out right now at twice the performance. Plus DX12 will streamline everything further, this is simply no excuse in favor of consoles. You're telling me I would rather pay 400-500$ for out dated tech I can't upgrade instead of investing on my own build? No gamer on their right mind would do that.

LoL and defending PS plus, you know the guys behind PSNow and renting Ben 10 for 40$...compare that to Steam and GoG and then get back to me. The more competition of retailers the better it is for consumers, it's simple, maybe if you where in favor of the consumers instead of the publishers I could agree with you.


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## Gorkensnorkel (Sep 18, 2015)

Going full digital means no more used games, correct? A lot of people, myself included, go back and purchase libraries of used games years later because its cheap and you get to enjoy games you didn't have time to play at launch. As long as the price drops eventually on digital copies to match the price of used games... Lol, but that won't happen, maybe an occasional sale here and there.

Honestly though, if they get rid of physical copies they will exclude a GREAT many people from there customer base. I live in the Smoky Mountains and there is one internet provider for the entire area (1000 miles or so) and in most places they get 6m/s but where I'm at we get 3m/s (a small price to pay for having a waterfall in my backyard) which technically broadband/highspeed but... its not very fast when your downloading a 50 GB+ game that takes 5 days. I saw the last Wolfenstein for sale on Steam for $20 and what did I do? I didn't buy it. The same will happen with every other 50 GB game I have to download.

On top of that, personally a LOT of people like to have what they spend there hard-earned-f***ing-cash on in there hands and not tied to some account that can get hacked or banned like Steam. But whatever, let Nintendo get rid of physical copies and go digital (if thats the rumor), there usually the first to try all the dumbest ideas out and usually it doesn't work out to well for them. Life is short and I need to spend more time outdoors, heh.


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## TecXero (Sep 18, 2015)

Hells Malice said:


> You wont use the most successful and streamlined gaming service ever created?
> Get outta here you fuckin' hispster.


I have some on there, but I'm a bit paranoid about DRM, especially when tied to a service that might not be around in twenty years.


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## HaloEffect17 (Sep 18, 2015)

The thing I hate about GameStop (EB Games, if you're Canadian like me), is that fact that they put a damn "NEW" sticker on a box on the shelf, and they sell you the supposed "brand new" game with no shrinkwrap and you can see them physically plop the disk in there behind the counter and put one of those circular tape things where the game case opens when you purchase it.

Now, don't get me wrong -- if you preorder a game there, they give you the game in its original shrinkwrap.  But I can confirm that they do the above because when I went to buy *Kirby's Epic Yarn* there a few weeks after its original release, they did just that, and quite frankly, it sucks.  I never buy new games there now; it's only a source for used games.


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## Pluupy (Sep 18, 2015)

I really like it when consoles come with games. Makes it a lot cooler to have a game come with the console ready for playing at all times. (even if you have to download it initially, I suppose)

I bought my 3DS XL with Mario Kart 7 (from Best Buy). No regrets here.


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## Langin (Sep 18, 2015)

Wekker said:


> Digital copy isn't cheaper. It could be cheaper if the physical copy sale is way higher than the digital copy. If digital copy becomes the standard, then the digital copy pricing will be same as the physical copy was.



Look at the production costs, including a voucher with a code IS cheaper than a disc with case, etc.  That's what I meant. ^~^


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## Tigran (Sep 18, 2015)

I seem to remember this same argument about books just a few years ago.. How E-readers would never catch on........


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## FAST6191 (Sep 18, 2015)

Tigran said:


> I seem to remember this same argument about books just a few years ago.. How E-readers would never catch on........


They kind of did not and got supplanted by more general purpose devices but yeah ebooks as a thing did catch on in the general populace. We also saw a massive rise in DRM free ebooks, some third party trading markets and most of the negatives people are worried about if current thoughts on downloadable games are used as the model if not gone then readily able to be avoided.
We also saw some of the downsides http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/18/amazon_removes_1984_from_kindle/


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## JoostinOnline (Sep 18, 2015)

jonthedit said:


> I feel GameStop should go out of business.


We know which guy you are


Spoiler


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## driverdis (Sep 18, 2015)

vayanui8 said:


> As someone who like the have a physical collection I'm rather glad they did this. Its always bugged me when theres an exclusive version of a console based on a game I like, but the game is installed digitally, forcing me to choose the look of the console or the game on my shelf.



The way Gamestop puts it, they would turn to a 3rd party bundle if no physical option was available, which would mean that any digital bundle with a custom console paint job will would be sold as a normal console plus physical game game.


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## Zeriel (Sep 18, 2015)

JoostinOnline said:


> We know which guy you are
> 
> 
> Spoiler



Hey Im not on this list!! "The guy who browses for 2 hours just to buy a 6$ game" XD


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## driverdis (Sep 18, 2015)

HaloEffect17 said:


> The thing I hate about GameStop (EB Games, if you're Canadian like me), is that fact that they put a damn "NEW" sticker on a box on the shelf, and they sell you the supposed "brand new" game with no shrinkwrap and you can see them physically plop the disk in there behind the counter and put one of those circular tape things where the game case opens when you purchase it.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong -- if you preorder a game there, they give you the game in its original shrinkwrap.  But I can confirm that they do the above because when I went to buy *Kirby's Epic Yarn* there a few weeks after its original release, they did just that, and quite frankly, it sucks.  I never buy new games there now; it's only a source for used games.



This ^
I have had them give me "new" games that had circle scratches on them (Halo 3 was one of them)
Gamestop exchanged it with a sealed (I asked them specifically for a sealed copy) of Halo 3 and they gave me a sealed Halo 3 Not For Resale one that was pulled from legendary edition bundle
Here is a pic of what I got (not taken by me, I found it via google)


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## JoostinOnline (Sep 18, 2015)

Amazon always beats their prices. I only get stuff there when they have a pre-order bonus.


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## RemixDeluxe (Sep 18, 2015)

JoostinOnline said:


> We know which guy you are
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Yeah I see myself waiting outside of GameStop to get some exclusive preorder bonus. I'm that guy.


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## Armadillo (Sep 18, 2015)

Foxi4 said:


> As for your price complaint, two little words: sales and PSPlus. You can find good bargains on the PSN store, especially during holidays, and PSPlus should keep you busy with discounts and IGC.



You mean the sales where 9/10 times, retail is still cheaper?

Just looking at the summer sale

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2015/07/29/playstation-store-summer-sale-starts-today/

Bloodborne. £34.99. £30 at retail.
Dying light £34.99. £25 at retail.
Evolve £19.99 . £17 at retail.

Sure you get the occasional that is cheaper on sale, than retail. Like borderlands the handsome collection, but for the most part. Retail is still cheaper than digital, even during sales. So your solution is ,don't complain about the price, because if you wait months, you might get for the same price as retail at launch?

As for psplus. Yeah, great idea. Let me pay Sony even more money to get a 10% discount off games, and still likely not match retail. The IGC has been a joke since ps4. A handfull of retail games and that's it. Mostly indie, my price complaints are over retail games.

At the very least on launch, it should be the same as it is in NA, where the digital and retail are the same. Not £10-15 premium on digital.


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## tbb043 (Sep 18, 2015)

HaloEffect17 said:


> The thing I hate about GameStop (EB Games, if you're Canadian like me), is that fact that they put a damn "NEW" sticker on a box on the shelf, and they sell you the supposed "brand new" game with no shrinkwrap and you can see them physically plop the disk in there behind the counter and put one of those circular tape things where the game case opens when you purchase it.



Of all the 8 or 9 Gamestops in my area, NONE have ever done that UNLESS it's the last copy of the game that they used for the display copy.

And no, I don't preorder.


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## Monado_III (Sep 18, 2015)

Gamestop, you do that, and console makers, ship every single console with any digital game you want so Gamestop can go out of business.


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## codezer0 (Sep 19, 2015)

On the one hand, it's scummy that none of the console makers will cut a break on the price of digital vs. a physical copy.

But what's also bad are those companies that choose to offer a physical release option of their game in one region, but go digital only with everywhere else (looking at you, Capcom).

Still, _any_ business decision on the part of Gamestop has to be met with skepticism. They can try to play it up as it being "for the gamers", but we all know that they invariably have some ulterior motive, always. This is the same company that has dumped the dreamcast not even 24 hours from Sega's announcement of planning to exit the hardware market, and this is also the same retailer that has surreptitiously abused legal loopholes in certain cities and communities, by being able to make it illegal for regular pawn shops to buy and sell gaming merchandise, but then they can plant as many Gamestops in the same borough and do their business willy-nilly. For _years_, Gamestop has actively ignored anything but whatever the current gen products were from the respective console makers, but is only NOW attempting (much, much too late and much too cynically) to cash in on the retro revival, after they themselves likely destroyed much of the viable stock that would have been worth premium. Let's not also forget the categorical disdain if not outright hatred from Gamestop toward anything for PC's.

I don't beleive for a second that this business decision was done with anything resembling some kind of defense to look out for consumers any more than it is to look out for their bottom line.


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## Zeriel (Sep 19, 2015)

codezer0 said:


> On the one hand, it's scummy that none of the console makers will cut a break on the price of digital vs. a physical copy.
> 
> But what's also bad are those companies that choose to offer a physical release option of their game in one region, but go digital only with everywhere else (looking at you, Capcom).
> 
> ...



Gamestop is shit sometimes but at least they get us cheaper prices and used games. What does PSN get us? Digital games that are more expensive than retail. The day Gamestop dies, gamers will loose. Less competition means companies can rip us off as much as they want! Just like the Internet and Cable companies


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## sneef (Sep 19, 2015)

i have some digital games that also exist on physical media, but only because i was very impatient with a couple of titles I just HAD to have right away (and of course digital distribution is often the quickest way to own a title).. other than that, I have TONS of digital games (well over $1000 of eshop titles... i'm scared to even calculate the value) which only exist as digital.  So, I have nothing against the downloadable format of game distribution.  HOWEVER, if a game DOES exist in a physical format like bluray, cart, etc, I am going to buy the physical media (exceptions being those few titles i mentioned above).   I do NOT like the idea of a console that only has downloadable games.   I am not rich.. I have a good job etc, but I don't throw money away, and I feel that digital distribution (such a funny name, since the carts and discs are all digital too.  It's silly, really) is not a sound way to spend my money.  I want to OWN something i pay that much cash for, and most downloadable content, in one way or another, isn't really OWNED by the downloader.  check out the fine print in most licensing agreements, such as music you "buy" on itunes, for example.   there is almost always some caveat, some situation in which your rights are NOT the same as someone who purchased the physical media of the same release.  Whether its something to the effect of "this title is bound to this device.. if you break the device or lose it, tough shit, your games are gone" (yes, i know you can moan and cry to a nintendo customer service rep, and they often enable redownloading the titles to your new device, but i'm talking about official policy, because they don't have to do that, and they don't always do it, either) or even "this title is the property of _____ publishing.  by paying the $2.00 download fee, you are licensing a copy of this title, and may use it for the duration of the licensing agreement blah blahblah"..  i'm not a lawyer, and these aren't real excerpts from licensing agreements.  I'm just giving approximate examples.

bottom line:  i don't like "leasing" access to games etc..  i hate the idea of office 365.  i hate the whole music library subscription idea (beats, apple music, etc, though i'm enjoying a free trial of apple music right now,  I don't like the idea that it's not my music, and without a subscription, and internet access, i can't listen to any of it.   sure, in the short term they're affordable and convenient.. but they only benefit the publisher, or why the hell would they be so hell bent on pushing that model on all of us?   microsoft in 2013:  people pay us $130 for office home &student (or something like that).. lets think of a way to make more than that per user, before the next office version comes out. I know! we'll make it subscription based!  sure, $3.99 a month (i think it may be more than that, but we'll give them more credit than they deserve) is a small amount, but in 3 years, they will have paid us $144, and many will have upgraded to different tiers and paid more..  

and so on.. plus, with subscriptions, the publisher KNOWS that people who are subscribed are likely to stay that way.. call it what you want: inertia?  laziness? complacency? settling into their comfort zone?  Newton's first law of motion, or the law of inertia? (objects at rest tend to stay at rest... etc.) and forget to unsubscribe, or just stay subscribed cause they can't be bothered to change.. sorry for the long diatribe..


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## Hells Malice (Sep 19, 2015)

HaloEffect17 said:


> The thing I hate about GameStop (EB Games, if you're Canadian like me), is that fact that they put a damn "NEW" sticker on a box on the shelf, and they sell you the supposed "brand new" game with no shrinkwrap and you can see them physically plop the disk in there behind the counter and put one of those circular tape things where the game case opens when you purchase it.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong -- if you preorder a game there, they give you the game in its original shrinkwrap.  But I can confirm that they do the above because when I went to buy *Kirby's Epic Yarn* there a few weeks after its original release, they did just that, and quite frankly, it sucks.  I never buy new games there now; it's only a source for used games.



I had the complete opposite happen several times.
I picked up a used copy of Crisis Core, it had a cracked case but I thought "meh, cheaper"
Dude goes into the back, comes out with a brand new sealed copy and charges me for the used price. He wasn't new either, i'd been there enough to know he was a veteran staffmember.
Had it happen again with a different game but I can't remember what...i think it was Armored Core 4.

Gamestop/Ebgames like literally every chain on the planet has shit stores and good stores. The day people realize this is (probably the day hell freezes over) when people will finally stop embarrassing themselves blindly insulting a CHAIN of stores that are all operated wildly differently. But of course, where would our entertainment be if stupid people didn't exist to provide it.
Oh and i'm not targeting this specifically at_ you_. It's just a blanket statement towards the bulk of the tards on the gamestop hatewagon.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 19, 2015)

codezer0 said:


> and this is also the same retailer that has surreptitiously abused legal loopholes in certain cities and communities, by being able to make it illegal for regular pawn shops to buy and sell gaming merchandise, but then they can plant as many Gamestops in the same borough and do their business willy-nilly.



Have you got links to that one? I thought I was aware of most of the bigger underhanded moves in that world but all searching is bring back is pawn shop laws turning around to bite gamestop.


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## Anunnymous (Sep 19, 2015)

I just want to start off by saying, I'm not crying about this, nor am I upset.  I accidentally took my modded PS3 online while messing around with something. I was banned and lost ~$3000 USD  worth of digital content. I understand this is fully my fault. But, companies giveth, companies can taketh away. This is why I don't like digital.


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## dontay0100 (Sep 19, 2015)

Vanth88 said:


> Why physical? I just bought the PS4 Destiny bundle and in case you're wondering how is it? I wouldn't know. It took an entire day to download the game and it's still downloading an update after launching the game. You wanna know why physical? because unless the company (in my case Sony) can keep up with the depends of an ever-growing digital-only community, then why the hell would anyone buy digital if they can't even play the game? I also bought Last of Us (digital) and it's still downloading.
> 
> With that being said I own a lot of steam games, and even on launch day for AAA games I've always been able to download from them at full speed (4mb/s for me). So digital-only isn't all bad.. it's just not all companies can handle that right now. Nintendo is also slow as fudge but.. honestly I can only hope they upgrade their servers for NX.



Get some better net brah


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## codezer0 (Sep 19, 2015)

FAST6191 said:


> Have you got links to that one? I thought I was aware of most of the bigger underhanded moves in that world but all searching is bring back is pawn shop laws turning around to bite gamestop.


I don't have links, because it was something I personally observed when I still lived in florida. A lot of smaller communities then having some laws so that the pawn shop refused to carry any gaming merchandise around, but then there would be like four gamestops within a mile of the same location. It was infuriating as hell, because it just meant the deals were worse and the associates ever more slimy than usual.


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## HaloEffect17 (Sep 19, 2015)

Hells Malice said:


> The day people realize this is (probably the day hell freezes over) when people will finally stop embarrassing themselves blindly insulting a CHAIN of stores that are all operated wildly differently.


Yeah, I see your point.  I shouldn't have made my statement so broad and I realize now that I was criticizing the business as a whole rather than individual stores.  Yes, all GameStops are different -- it just so happens the *stores in my area* do things that I personally don't agree with.   That's what I was trying to say.


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## FusionGamer (Sep 19, 2015)

So that's why the Super Mario Maker bundle is WalMart exclusive.


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## tbb043 (Sep 19, 2015)

FusionGamer said:


> So that's why the Super Mario Maker bundle is WalMart exclusive.



Nah, if it was just GS policy it would still be at Best Buy or Target or wherever else. Walmart and Nintendo just happened to work out that particular exclusive, nothing to do with  what GS will or wont do.


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## sporkonomix (Sep 19, 2015)

Veho said:


> I think you are romanticizing a piece of plastic, and your only experience seems to stem from consoles and that has left you severely biased. I have been gaming since 1987 too, but the platforms I started on were the Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum and Atari 800XL and the Amiga, and my games ran off audio cassettes, and later on they ran off floppy disks, and later still they ran off the hard drive and the medium was never a part of the game, and later systems were backwards compatible so the platform wasn't part of the game either, and I say you are looking at the past from your perspective only and making connections where there are none. The best games have been ported and emulated and are still being played today even though the hardware is no longer around. Games that have had equally as large an impact as (S)NES games, that are played today even though not a single original medium or original box they ran on remains.
> 
> The reason games you speak of stayed relevant is because they were good games to begin with, not because the original hardware still works, and most of the people nowadays who play the old games play them on emulators and other machines. Everyone has played Pac-man or Tetris, not because they're bought/borrowed/inherited the original arcade machine, and not because the original hardware is still available, because "it can be found", but because it has been ported everywhere, and because it's fun. Games are not limited to their original hardware or the medium where they were once stored, and if people play them 20 years later it is because of the game, not because they happen to have the tangle of tubes and wiring it used to run on, or the plastic they were distributed on. If a game is bad, the mere fact you can pass it on won't save it from oblivion.
> 
> ...



I do game on my PC (since the late 90s; I was late to enter the computer age), albeit due to my tastes and the inherent issues of PC gaming, I don't do it quite as much. They suffer from even worse problems with regard to digital over physical.

You're right that the quality of a game dictates how long it lasts. But what about DLC? Games that are only ever distributed digitally will eventually become harder to find or be incomplete due to the monetization schemes that the industry is rife with these days. Older PC games are much like older console games in that emulation is indeed possible and can be better than the original experience. Worst case scenario for an old game like Diablo 1 or 2 is you need to find a second download for the expansions and install them. How does that work with DLC, especially with games that require a server to be contacted at all times? You're looking at cracks, patches, workarounds, etc. It's a hassle. (I'm a tech-savvy person so it's not that I'm inept, just lazy when I want to game) Part of it is a lack of physical media, but also the practices of the industry itself. I heard about MGSV on PC being little more than a Steam code in a text file. That is completely ridiculous. They spent the time and resources to press the disc but didn't include the actual game. People on slower connections will take *days* to download it. Cutting out physical media is just another shitty decision being made by the industry that will kill the longevity and playability of games -- at least without the work of homebrewers. As much as I enjoy the homebrew scene and the people who make cracks to make games playable years after they go away, I don't trust that there will always be a person or a group willing (or able) to crack games. I generally prefer a legal alternative where available, and will turn to modding only when I have to (e.g. an online-only game's servers die).

What will happen to games like Borderlands 2, for example? Good game, plenty of people like it. It'll probably be sought after later on. But it has tons of DLC. Will hackers figure out how to package the DLC altogether and host a torrent? Will they include an installer or just a set of files to drop into C:\Program Files\? What if they can't get all the DLC? There goes part of a game -- a game that people like -- gone forever due to industry practices. How about games where the game logic is on the servers (e.g. Diablo 3). What will happen when Blizzard shuts down Diablo 3 support and/or goes under? Diablo 3 will be dead unless a ton of work is done *now* to determine what all the algorithms, item IDs, etc are to reverse engineer the server. We've already had MMOs come and go; a handful have gotten fanmade servers: WoW, I think Everquest, maybe Guild Wars.

Modern gaming has some benefits (the ability to fix bugs, add extra content, lower distribution costs) but it comes at the cost of the game losing its value, both monetarily and culturally as time passes. Buying a new game isn't an experience anymore. It's buy or download, load up, start playing. Most games don't come with a physical manual anymore. Good for the environment, I guess, but they were already printing on recycled paper to begin with.

Further, what's stopping companies from remotely disabling games you've paid money for? According to their Terms, *nothing*. Each and every digital distribution platform has a clause that allows them to revoke your access to games at any time, for any reason. (If you really want citations, I can get them. It may take me a bit though) On one hand, that's fair since they own the servers. But on the other, you the customer *paid for those games* and you deserve to be able to play them. That should be your right. For them to accept your money and then have the ability to take back what they sold you should be considered illegal.

So I guess you're right that it goes beyond just physical media. There's a host of issues going on in gaming over the past decade or so. Eschewing physical media is just one of the problems, and it wouldn't be a problem if the digital method was modelled better and pricing were fairer to make up for the fact that customers get nothing physical out of it (and thus they don't have to pay to manufacture anything). I'm aware of rose-colored glasses, and I go out of my way to be sure I'm not talking about anything from a nostalgic perspective. I honestly think today's game market is worse than 20+ years ago. The biggest advancement the market's made is expansion, allowing for broader genres and encouraging indie development. Everything else -- microtransactions, free-to-play, shipping games with on-disc DLC or day-one DLC, shipping buggy games that aren't totally complete or fixed until 6 months out -- is a disgrace and has killed a lot of interest I have in games, because I refuse to purchase an incomplete product at full price. I'm not paying to be a beta tester.

EDIT: More replies below.



Maximilious said:


> I love physical copies as much as all of you, but lets face it - it's not what it used to be. Games anymore are coming pre-packed as installer or license files that allow digital content to be downloaded. This is backed by cheaper operation costs and overhead by the gaming companies allowing them to put capitol elsewhere in their companies. It won't be too long until as the OP said, consoles go full digital.



What makes you think companies aren't doing that deliberately, to get you to switch to digital?



chavosaur said:


> It always continues to surprise me on the stance that people take on physical games versus digital games.
> 
> Just to play devils advocate and throw a scenario at you, do you just as many of you that preferred the physical copy of games also prefer the physicality of movies and music? Do you still continue to purchase CDs to this day and do you still continue to purchase Blu-rays and DVDs? Does the physicality of that media matter to you as much as the physicality of the gaming media?
> 
> ...



Honestly, movies and music are generally transient experiences. You passively sit there and consume the media. Games are interactive. They (used to) come with manuals, stories, and have nice looking box art. Consuming a game is enjoying art in a way that's different and, imo, more meaningful than music or movies because you're part of the experience. Your input matters.

I don't mind digital music or movies because ultimately it wouldn't upset me if I lost them. I'd just download them again, probably in a better format or bitrate. I also can't have them taken away from me forcibly without law enforcement getting involved. That is not true of video games. If I lose games, my ability to have that interactive experience is gone. My save file is likely gone, too. And unlike digital music and movies, game distributors can take back the games that they sell me. That's complete bullshit.



Hyperstar96 said:


> If you're referring to Steam, Valve has made it clear that they'll remove the DRM from all Steam games if Steam ever shuts down.



The only "evidence" I've seen of that was a screenshot of a forum post. Also, what a corporation says can be and often is different from what they actually do when said situation arises. I have no reason to believe that Valve won't delete my Steam games if they were to ever leave the industry. My purchases are not protected in the terms of use, Valve has not placed a clause in the terms to allow for that, and those same terms are the only binding thing I have to go on to make an informed decision. There's no mention of removing DRM anywhere in the terms.

If you're able to find an authoritative source for that claim, I may reconsider. But given the information I and many other customers have, there's no reason to believe that will happen.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 20, 2015)

codezer0 said:


> I don't have links, because it was something I personally observed when I still lived in florida. A lot of smaller communities then having some laws so that the pawn shop refused to carry any gaming merchandise around, but then there would be like four gamestops within a mile of the same location. It was infuriating as hell, because it just meant the deals were worse and the associates ever more slimy than usual.



Interesting, I doubt I will be in rural/backwater Florida any time soon but if they try it on* in one place then there will usually be others and I usually find it worthwhile having a chat with pawn shop and similar people wherever I might be.

*I am a great fan of the "it is not technically a law but watch problems magically appear if you don't" type setups.


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## gamesquest1 (Sep 20, 2015)

Digital only can suck one, normally I would write a essay on why people are stupid for thinking digital only is the way forward*, but if that's what you truly believe l....well....i think your too far gone 

*in its current form


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## Xzi (Sep 21, 2015)

I wouldn't shed a tear if Gamestop went out of business.  Then again, I'm primarily a PC gamer, so I'm used to digital distribution anyway.  As well as getting those digital games for half their retail price or less on release day.  For console owners, the switch is a bit more pointless...there's no way MS/Sony/Ninty are going to lower their prices if they can convince people to switch to digital without doing so.  Of course, a discount of just 10% - 20% on games might quickly convince the majority of console gamers.

The only people who really get screwed over in the push for digital are those with slow internet speeds/download caps.


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## driverdis (Sep 21, 2015)

Xzi said:


> The only people who really get screwed over in the push for digital are those with slow internet speeds/download caps.


and this is the problem. A lot of people in the U.S. have either or both slow internet and download caps. ones that do not cap you warn you that you are going over the recommended amount (200-250GB usually) and nag you to not do so the next month.


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## Redhorse (Sep 22, 2015)

... because long after the console has broken, been stolen, been borrowed adn not returned, sold by parents/wife etc... we still have the game cartridge to cherish and play. Since many have forgotten their passwords for Nintendos 'Network' and their systems breaks and they can't Download the games into their newly bought console, THEN they will know why Physical copies are so important. Remember, these N games aren't tied to accounts yet... but to the console. if it breaks, they're gone for good until re-bought.
Regarding the game manuals, I like the physical manuals, but I dig the digital ones as well. I still have (and really enjoy) the fan service ) of the Guides for my GBA games, wow, they are really something. 

Last one I bought was Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon, beautiful just beautiful. Not to mention the free posters many contained etc... A picture is worth a thousand words.... Many DS carts with manuals contained mini posters too (Chrono-Trigger, GTA: Chinatown Wars...), or some came as premiums, but that stopped when manuals stopped.

This digital thing feels much like the local utilities which want to deliver everything bills, statements digitally, passing the cost of their paper onto the consumer (ultimately), making them more money. They call it efficient, I call them corporate pirating bastards... This IS equal to you paying more albeit slightly for the same game even at the same cost, you get less for the same money. Economics 101. You're paying $10. MORE this console for essentially the same size game but you're cheated out of the plastic case, cover art, manual, and cartridge. [a form of]  _Planned obsolescence_; it's a real thing in this real world.

_"We return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast already in progress...."_


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## Armadillo (Sep 22, 2015)

chavosaur said:


> It always continues to surprise me on the stance that people take on physical games versus digital games.
> 
> Just to play devils advocate and throw a scenario at you, do you just as many of you that preferred the physical copy of games also prefer the physicality of movies and music? Do you still continue to purchase CDs to this day and do you still continue to purchase Blu-rays and DVDs? Does the physicality of that media matter to you as much as the physicality of the gaming media?
> 
> .



Yes. I buy all my films on blu-ray, same with cds. The quality of Blu-ray is normally far better than streaming/digital. And before the arguement of "you can't tell comes up", even if that was true, so what? Same price, so I may as well have the superior version. Same with cds.

On top of that, if I want digital, fine I'll make my own with the features/quality settings I want.


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## Xzi (Sep 25, 2015)

driverdis said:


> and this is the problem. A lot of people in the U.S. have either or both slow internet and download caps. ones that do not cap you warn you that you are going over the recommended amount (200-250GB usually) and nag you to not do so the next month.


Having data caps for home internet connections is ridiculous...capitalism at its ugliest.


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## yeshuachrist (Sep 28, 2015)

1. Ebay - 20$ to 50$ Lower on New Games and Console Sales
2. Walmart - 20$ to 50$ Lower on New Games and Console Sales
(Psp Vita 188$ Walmart, Psp Vita 200$ Gamestop, an example you can google)

Gamestop ... ... ... ... Originally called Funcoland, used to take a hit on used console sales and buy back purchases, now they really don't.  Your going to get less money then if you take out an add on Craigslist, or on Ebay ... ... ... ... your going to get robbed in used console sales/buy back purchases/and in game trades.

Gamestop will probably stay afloat for quite a few more years until a policy is adopted by the government, for the safe disposal of these consoles, like Cellphones and IPhones (because the parts contain hazardous materials, like lcd tv's too) .  But policies have not really moved in that area.  Video game retailers, do not have a legal responsibility to return your console to the manufacturer when you want to trash it or sell it for monies. 

Therefore, Gamestop is really satisfying a need that the government and retailers should respond to, in holding manufacturers accountable to a higher degree for their product.  If that is an impossibility then.

Gamestop will only close down the number of stores they have to stay in business like Radio Shack, until better policies are adopted with the gaming industry, and if that never happens, Gamestop will never go out of business.

Gamestop has become a "Troll Business", largely Trolling 3rd Party devices of poor quality ... ... ... ... and repacking consoles, they claim was "refurbished" most of the time, this is a lie, if you don't work at their business, then you don't ask (thats the rule).

The people who occasionally shop there like me, know that you must thoroughly test whatever you buy there before your warranty expires.  Sometimes they give you problems about returning your item, fortunately you can go to another Gamestop business with your receipt.  If that does not work, make sure you spend over $20 dollars, then you legally have the right to take them to small claims court, but add about 80$ for transportation, and character assault, the judge will be more than willing to give you this small sum.  (not saying all of their businesses are grumpy and trolls, but if you shop there on a regular basis and get bad hardware, and make a few returns, just stop shopping there, rather then have to deal with harassment for a legal right you have to a return for)


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