# Religion. The Last Debate



## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

*NO FLAMING OR HATING ALLOWED​*



*Open forever*

*Debate 10 *Is there a God? Do you believe in God?​*How to debate*


Spoiler



We will be debating about a question, make your point heard.
If the question is: *Can we live without air?*

*A response can be:* No, because air sustains life.
*Another can be:* No, that point is wrong because we can live on Oxygen alone, not air.
*Another can be:* No, because plants need CO2 which is in air to live, and without plants, we would die.
^ I love this debate fail...

and so on.
OK.

You will find today's debate title at the top of this post/in the topic description. Happy debating! I am impartial to this and will ignore the posts I have made to count the final score, as they were made *solely to get the debate up and running*. I will judge which side has won at the end, however will join the debate.

The debate will last as long as I think it should last






Previous Debates


Spoiler



Can we live without modern technology? The 'Temp says *we can*.
Will the world end in 2012? The 'Temp says '*fuck no*'.
Genetic/DNA Manipulation on humans. Should it be legal in the UK? The 'Temp thinks that *it should be legal*
Media Censorship? Protective or Restrictive? The 'temp believes media censorship is *restrictive* - but only just!
Health and Safety laws. Protective or restrictive? *Protective*, 13 to 7
Cannabis (plant) should be legalized. Oh really? The 'temp says *yes*, 21 to 8, but it's use should be enforced like tobacco.
Medical Research on animals. Does it do more good than harm? *It does good.*
Should fascists be given a platform to speak? ~Suggested by TrolleyDave :*Yes, they should. 8 to 5.*

Evolution or creation: how did human beings come about? : *Tempy say, tempy do. We evolved, 27 to 11*

Is there a God - the final debate, even if I rigged the polls slightly, 29 said yes, 41 said no, 28 said 'maybe'.



Future Debates


Spoiler



Best debaters. Awards.





*Description:*
Religion. The last debate. No description required. Does it exist, should it be worth following, is it a scapegoat, atheism is key - anything about religion. But the main question is, *RELIGION, YES OR NO - IS there a God? Do you believe in God?*? *No flaming or hating* allowed.

5077 -lastTD, uC 1TrolleyDave,20ddity, 3FAST 4Blood Fetish stat G  ---chazLD


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## prowler (Sep 11, 2010)

are you actually fucking serious


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

*No Religious HATRED allowed. No Religious FLAMING allowed. Keep on-topic.*


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

There is no "yes or no" answer

this thread is dumb


edit: and you really think people on this website have a wide, varied knowledge of religion that they can use to debate this? Really? Wow.


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## Depravo (Sep 11, 2010)

Does it exist? Of course religion exists.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Law said:
			
		

> There is no "yes or no" answer
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> this thread is dumb
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The title is:  Is there a God? Do you believe in God?


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## prowler (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> *No Religious HATRED allowed. No Religious FLAMING allowed. Keep on-topic.*


*Because if I change the font size, color and font, I sound IMPORTANT*


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Religion exists.

Is it needed? I don't think so. It just gives us one more reason to disagree and fight about it.

Does God exist? I don't think so. I'd like to, but if one did than it's doing a pretty awful job.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Religion exists.
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> Is it needed? I don't think so. It just gives us one more reason to disagree and fight about it.
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> Does God exist? I don't think so. I'd like to, but if one did than it's doing a pretty awful job.


How can you say God's doing an awful job?


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## injected11 (Sep 11, 2010)

No poll at the top?

BTW, no.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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Have you seen the news lately?

If there was a God (or at least a competent one) monitoring all of this, he/she would never have let things get this bad.


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## ConJ (Sep 11, 2010)

Im not sure what to think about this subject anymore, I would say that i'm agnostic. Although I fall strongly on the side of evolution, rather than creation.

I don't believe, but I don't disbelieve. 

One I thing I do know, is that religion is the one biggest causes of war in the world (along with politics).

I also used to think that religion is just a way to keep the people under control, a way to pacify the country, if you will.

Plus, if there really was an almighty power, a God, would he let all this war, pain and suffering happen in the world?


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## DarkLG (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

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He's not going to fix evry problem the wolrd has that's on humanity to do they fucked up so they should fix .


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## Depravo (Sep 11, 2010)

Spirituality is a fine thing but organised religion is just a means of conditioning and control.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

DarkLG said:
			
		

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What was God originally thought to do? Was he/she not supposed to help mankind thrive if the name of him/her was spread?

Look at the world now. Some of the most religious countries are not doing well at all.

If mankind was supposed to do everything themselves and fix their own problems, why would there be a God?


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

DarkLG said:
			
		

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exactly - God put us in charge of this world and it's up to us to keep it good. Look at all the good things that have happened - where you live, the fact that you are clothed, you have money, food.


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## ConJ (Sep 11, 2010)

Depravo said:
			
		

> Spirituality is a fine thing but organised religion is just a means of conditioning and control.



My thoughts exactly, you summed up what I was thinking in a sentence.


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

I think we're just some game of SimCity that some kid left running after giving up because he couldn't figure out how to keep people happy


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

No, no. Infinite regression, teapots, and all of that.


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## ConJ (Sep 11, 2010)

Law said:
			
		

> I think we're just some game of SimCity that some kid left running after giving up because he couldn't figure out how to keep people happy



Hahaha, awesome thought.

Edit: I can see this thread getting out of control.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Law said:
			
		

> I think we're just some game of SimCity that some kid left running after giving up because he couldn't figure out how to keep people happy


If that was true - who's building the roads and power stations? 0-o


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## Sephi (Sep 11, 2010)

This question has no real answer, why bother asking.

only meaningless opinions come out of this


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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Where _*I*_ live, that *I* am clothed, *I* have money and food.

I am an but a very small part of the world's population.

Please explain to me what God actually does if there is even one monitoring us. If there is, what's the use?


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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We became self aware and figured out how to do it for ourselves

(he was playing a version of SimCity that we haven't developed yet which has that feature)


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## DarkLG (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

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No disrespect but you clearly have never read any religious books at all. God created us(if you believe that) we fucked up by disobeying.Things start going wrong so he leaves it on our hands to try and fix them.He's original intent for creating us was to have company but we fucked that up.The reasons the religious contries are not doing so well is just not good enough to blame religion for their problems.
And to the whole I shit um He keeps you alive on earth,He lets you breathe air um any other reasons I should give?


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.

Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.



Spoiler






			
				Law said:
			
		

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So, we have become self aware and devloped AI which we as humans have not even perfected yet.


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## injected11 (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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So what is the point of prayer if you already know God won't answer?


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## Berthenk (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> How can you say God's doing an awful job?


How can you not say he's doing an awful job? If God exists, he sucks at his job. Seriously.
First creating man, and then punish them because they exist? What the fuck, God is a fucking sadist.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> There is really no such thing as the “innocent” suffering.
> 
> Since “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.



So would an all-forgiving God really hold generations upon generations of people responsible for someone elese sins?  Wouldn't that make him prejudiced?


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Spoiler
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Like I said, we haven't developed that version of SimCity yet.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Berthenk said:
			
		

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*Hey - read the rules - no obvious flaming or hating.*


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> No disrespect but you clearly have never read any religious books at all. God created us(if you believe that) we fucked up by disobeying.Things start going wrong so he leaves it on our hands to try and fix them.He's original intent for creating us was to have company but we fucked that up.The reasons the religious contries are not doing so well is just not good enough to blame religion for their problems.



Well I have read plenty on religion, and I must be one of the only full time church attending atheists (long story.) Anyways, if there is a natural explanation for something, why make it more complicated with a magical explanation? It doesn't explain anything then, it's just saying "we don't know." Somehow humans came to exist on earth (I would say abiogenesis/evolution,) and we are acting like humans. It is absolutely ludicrous (imo) to take things like Adam and Eve or Noah's flood as anything more than allegorical.


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## Sephi (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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his opinion is as good as yours


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## Raiser (Sep 11, 2010)

Religion exists. God does not.

This is just my honest opinion, so please don't hate on me for saying so:
Religion is not needed nor does it do any resulting good on Earth. Those who needed religion in their lives (to follow God) has needed to do so because he has encountered obstacles in life that he cannot overcome (well) and needs something to fall back on. Simply put, religious persons cannot stand on their own two feet. They pray for guidance from the Lord, and in the end, any resulting successes will be "because of God". This is not true; that person got his own life back on track with false beliefs.

Religion along with ethnic differences causes many conflicts in the world. In the end, it's simply because "our God doesn't believe that's right" or something along the lines.

In our world, nothing truly exists unless physically proven.
We haven't seen pigs with wings and tiger fangs so they don't exist.
We haven't seen any of God's acts therefore he doesn't exist.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

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According to Genesis 1:26-27, God created each of us the same and He holds no race higher than any other race, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness...So God created man in His own image.'" In I John 2:2, the Bible says that Jesus died for all sins, "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world." If God believed that one race was better than another, he would not have sent his only Son to die for the entire world. Other verses in the Bible about prejudice include Deuteronomy 10:17, "For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of Lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward." Also, Acts 10:34 says, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, 'Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons." Finally, Jesus said in John 13:34, " A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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According to this book I wrote five minutes ago, Chapter 2 Section 5 Paragraph B7 states "Why do people even bother debating religion if all they're going to do is quote from a book which for all we know is a work of fiction?"


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## DarkLG (Sep 11, 2010)

To the prayer thing think really carefully usually the same people that pray for help are the same people that turn around and go do stupid shit that I guess would count as sin.Would you really want to answer someone that you  know is just going to keep doind stuff he or she shouldn't?


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## Berthenk (Sep 11, 2010)

DarkLG said:
			
		

> No disrespect but you clearly have never read any religious books at all. God created us(if you believe that) we fucked up by disobeying.Things start going wrong so he leaves it on our hands to try and fix them.He's original intent for creating us was to have company but we fucked that up.The reasons the religious contries are not doing so well is just not good enough to blame religion for their problems.
> And to the whole I shit um He keeps you alive on earth,He lets you breathe air um any other reasons I should give?


Disobeying... what the fuck's with that? God created us, you say? Then he knew we would disobey.
He leaves us to try and fix what *he* caused? His original intent for creating us was to have company, you say? He knew we'd fuck that up.
Why punish us for doing something that *he* made us do? If he keeps us alive, why do lots of people die from cancer, why do disasters happen?
Were all hurricanes and eruption punishment for our sins? Sins that *he* made us do?

If god exists, he's a dick, a sadist and a whole of a lot of awful things more.

Edit: typo...


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## xist (Sep 11, 2010)

Given we have more evidence of the multiverse and possible parallel universe's co-existing within even an atom's distance away (and possibly even containing branching realities based upon significant choices in our lives) derived from String and M-Theory and Brane Cosmology, than God existing, i think that the chances of a supreme being are slim.

But seeing as Religion is all about "Faith" i'm guessing that it doesn't matter...if you have faith that God exists that's seen as the challenge. Ultimately everyone is an atheist when they're in dire straits? No-one takes Pascal's wager when they're at risk of death...they do their level best to survive!


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Law said:
			
		

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Is the bible fiction? The answer to the question is - it depends...
Much of the Bible is historical fact, proved time after time by archaeology and new archaeological techniques. Some parts of the Old Testament are hebrew folklaw - including Genesis - but intermixed with that folklaw are real truths. As an example, the story of Adam and eve is very true, whether or not Adam and eve existed! 'Adam' means 'man' and 'Eve' means 'from Man' - so Adam and eve can repreent Humanity. The truth at the heart of the Adam and Eve story is that mankind was once in relatioship with God, but that mankind rebelled because he thought he knew best - and the result is the mess we have today. So although some Bible stories may be thought of as myths, they hide great truths abou the human soul.
Some parts of the Old testament are historical - especially the book of Exodus, and t Two books of Kings etc. Some are prophetic - Isaiah, Jeremiah etc - books that are written by men close to God, telling the people about God and warning them when they rebel against God. Some books are Literature - Job for instance. Again, whether or not Job actually existed as a historical person is not important, but the profound truths behind why there is suffering and the part God plays in the fallen world are extremely relevant to modern society.
The new testament books - the gospels and Acts, are historical and have been verified and checked more than any other ancient literature. And they have been verified by modern archaeology. Most of the rest of the New testament is taken up with letters written to the early churches by Paul and other writers. So being factual or otherwise is again irrelevant; they contain wonderful words of guidance and encouragement (and sometimes chastisement!) that is still as fresh and relevant today as when they were written 2000 years ago. Finally The revelation of John - the last book of the Bible is written in apocalyptic style - as a record of a vision he had. The book tells what he saw as his vision of the end of the world and the last judgement. It cannot be 'proved' as fact as it hasn't yet happened... but then it can't be proved as fiction either. Not is it easy to understand. Even the simplest part - the number of the 'beast' as 666, has had whole books written about it.
Therefore, one cannot say the Bible is Fact, period, or Fiction, period. It depends upon the part and exactly what you mean by fact or fiction. However, what you can say is that all the writers were inspired by God in their writings, and, quite frankly, nothing has ever come close as a blueprint for human guidance, comfort, revolution, God's revelation of himself, and, ultimately salvation.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

DarkLG said:
			
		

> No disrespect but you clearly have never read any religious books at all. God created us(if you believe that) we fucked up by disobeying.Things start going wrong so he leaves it on our hands to try and fix them.He's original intent for creating us was to have company but we fucked that up.The reasons the religious contries are not doing so well is just not good enough to blame religion for their problems.
> And to the whole I shit um He keeps you alive on earth,He lets you breathe air um any other reasons I should give?
> 
> You're right. I have never read a religious book in my life. I find this to be a good thing. Now I am free to think for myself and use logic the correct way.
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God is there to make our lives shit?


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## worlok375 (Sep 11, 2010)

I've noticed that these threads usually end up becoming flame wars. Oh by the way I believe in god.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

worlok375 said:
			
		

> I've noticed that these threads usually end up becoming flame wars. Oh by the way I believe in god.


That's why I was sensitive about making it, but I'm trying to make sure these *flame* wars do NOT happen.


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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> QUOTEIt cannot be 'proved' as fact as it hasn't yet happened... but then it can't be proved as fiction either.



If it isn't fact, it's fiction. No ifs or buts.


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

Jet, why bother quoting the bible, since all Christians pick and choose what verses to follow, and which to ignore? All types of religions can be created if we can pick and choose what to listen to in the bible, as evidenced by all the sects of christianity. For example, I am sure on Christmas, you (and all the other christians here) put up a christmas tree, and decorate it, etc. But, why? You are violating the very book you are quoting to others!



			
				QUOTE(Jeremiah 10:2-4(NIV)) said:
			
		

> 2 This is what the LORD says:
> "Do not learn the ways of the nations
> or be terrified by signs in the sky,
> though the nations are terrified by them.
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There are many other instances of contradictions, hypocrisy and picking and choosing verses to follow.


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## VashTS (Sep 11, 2010)

omg all religions are wrong and stupid.  

end of discussion, my points can be proven by someone who is religious.  

telling me i am wrong about this....against your religion.  kthxbai


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## Berthenk (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Is the bible fiction? The answer to the question is - it depends...


Yes, the bible is fiction. Remember, it was written by mankind.


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## DarkLG (Sep 11, 2010)

This was a stupid idea to start debate like this. No one wins some say religion makes the world worse some disagree. some say god doesn't exist and if he did he's a dick.Other say he does exist and still say he's a dick. Everyone will have different believes always one thing i clearly will never believe is evolution because it doesn't make sense to me can anyone explain it?


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Depends on your beliefs. I put up a tree because I like tinsel. That's my reason 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







			
				DarkLG said:
			
		

> This was a stupid idea to start debate like this. No one wins some say religion makes the world worse some disagree. some say god doesn't exist and if he did he's a dick.Other say he does exist and still say he's a dick. Everyone will have different believes always one thing i clearly will never believe is evolution because it doesn't make sense to me can anyone explain it?


-poll.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> According to Genesis 1:26-27, God created each of us the same and He holds no race higher than any other race, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness...So God created man in His own image.'" In I John 2:2, the Bible says that Jesus died for all sins, "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world." If God believed that one race was better than another, he would not have sent his only Son to die for the entire world. Other verses in the Bible about prejudice include Deuteronomy 10:17, "For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of Lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward." Also, Acts 10:34 says, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, 'Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons." Finally, Jesus said in John 13:34, " A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."



What does any of that have to do with the question I asked.  I'll ask again.  Would a God who claims to be all-forgiving and compassionate judge someone guilty because of something that someone else did?


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

god worshippers do have a habit of cherry pickin from the bible
but people on here don't really believe in god, if they did, they wouldn't be here being pirating

also...I say god don't exist because there no proof..


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

@TD- No.



			
				RoMee said:
			
		

> god worshippers do have a habit of cherry pickin from the bible
> but people on here don't really believe in god, if they did, they wouldn't be here being pirating
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> also...I say god don't exist because there no proof..


Pirating?


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> @TD- No.



So then the God portrayed in the Torah/Bible/Qu'ran couldn't exist.  He couldn't be both all-forgiving and compassionate as well as hateful.


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## injected11 (Sep 11, 2010)

DarkLG said:
			
		

> To the prayer thing *think really carefully usually the same people that pray for help are the same people that turn around and go do stupid shit that I guess would count as sin*.Would you really want to answer someone that you  know is just going to keep doind stuff he or she shouldn't?


My elderly religious neighbor whose brain is unfortunately riddled with tumors would like to have a word with you. As would the incredibly religious family 2 blocks down that sold their summer home and 2 of their 3 cars, then donated 100% of the money to a homeless charity. Damn sinners.

If you want to learn a tiny bit about evolution, go read 0ddity's final post in the evolution vs creation debate thread.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm seeing a lot of quotes from a really old *STORY BOOK*.

This really does nothing to support any arguments at all. 

It's like supporting God in a religious debate using quotes from the Bible.
I used this example because there is literally nothing else that is this stupid.


You can say that this is flaming, but in this thread anything anti-religious is flaming.



If you can prove to me that God exists in one way or another using physical evidence that does not originate in a story book, I'll change my mind and go repent TODAY.


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> I'm seeing a lot of quotes from a really old *STORY BOOK*.
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You know that some lady found jesus' face on her burnt toast once, right? That should be proof enough.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

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He changed. When Jesus died on the cross, he forgave our sins and showed God that he had to be all-forgiving and compassionate. He was hateful before, but Jesus died for US.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

religion and everything in it is man made...including god

god is a creation made to combat man's fear


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> *He was hateful before*, but Jesus died for US.



Ok, I'm personally Christian and everything, I don't keep up with the Bible word for word or anything like that, but that line is just *wrong*.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Law said:
			
		

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OH SHIT!!!
A godly figure decided to come to earth to visit and all he could think of was a very obscure picture on a piece of toast that could be misconstrued as anything else?!

Looks like my argument is null and void. Time to go confess my sins to the outer contents of a sandwich.


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## Berthenk (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> He changed. When Jesus died on the cross, he forgave our sins and showed God that he had to be all-forgiving and compassionate. He was hateful before, but Jesus died for US.


Yeah yeah, he died for us. Who the fuck would give up his own son because *others* are sinning?
Also, did he learn from his dying son? No! No single fuck was given by the one whose fucking son sacrificed himself because his father made
people sin. If he really cares about us, he didn't let his own son die.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

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but you just said there's no such thing as "innocents", and that we are all tarnished with original sin.  Plus, it brings me back to the point.  In the Old Testament he is described as being both all-forgiving, compassionate and hateful.  Therefore he couldn't have existed in that form.  Therefore the "rewrite" in the Old Testament (which is still full of hate) is based off something that didn't exist in the first place.

And are you saying that Jesus was smarter than God?  God who is supposed to be all-knowing?  If Jesus had to show God he had to be all-forgiving then God obviously wasn't all-knowing.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

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Aii, that's not what I meant to say. He wasn't hateful. He just was...stricter.

Anyway- @Chaz
Rather than use physical evidence to show that the Bible is most probably true, we again go back to intellectual evidence, and logical proof, to show that the Bible is necessarily true. We can know that the Bible is true because it claims to be true and proves it by the impossibility of the contrary! It is only because the Bible is true that we have justification for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws. It is only by God's revealing Himself to us through His word that we have grounds for rational thought. We use rational thought, therefore we can know that the Bible is true. Attempting to use logic to try to disprove the only possible source for logic would be self-refuting.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

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Jesus IS God.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Aii, that's not what I meant to say. He wasn't hateful. He just was...stricter.
> 
> But blaming someone for something someone else did is hateful.  Would it be OK for me to say that all Muslims are terrorists because 0,0001% of them are?
> 
> QUOTE(jet™ @ Sep 11 2010, 09:33 PM) Jesus IS God.



You do know that that's considered blasphemy don't you?  And also. does that mean God committed suicide?


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

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> 
> ...



I'm claiming that clouds are made of candyfloss.

the contrary is impossible because HAVE YOU EVER JUMPED HIGH ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO GRAB A PIECE OF CLOUD? I DON'T THINK SO


edit: speaking of rational thought: I bet all of those christians were thinking rationally when they decided to outright slaughter thousands of scientists during the dark ages.

Thanks for setting scientific discovery back 1000 years.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> jet™ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He never blamed anyone for anything else. And no, muslims are not terrorists.


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## Berthenk (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Rather than use physical evidence to show that the Bible is most probably true, we again go back to intellectual evidence, and logical proof, to show that the Bible is necessarily true. We can know that the Bible is true because it claims to be true and proves it by the impossibility of the contrary! It is only because the Bible is true that we have justification for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws. It is only by God's revealing Himself to us through His word that we have grounds for rational thought. We use rational thought, therefore we can know that the Bible is true. Attempting to use logic to try to disprove the only possible source for logic would be self-refuting.


Oh wait. So, he gave us the possibility to use rational thoughts to disprove his existence?


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

no one has yet to prove god is real...so as of now he's as real as Zeus


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> TrolleyDave said:
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But he did.  He painted us all with "original sin".  We were blamed for something that Adam and Eve did.


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## Depravo (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> jet™ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The moral of the story - never trust a woman.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Anyway- @Chaz
> Rather than use physical evidence to show that the Bible is most probably true, we again go back to intellectual evidence, and logical proof, to show that the Bible is necessarily true. We can know that the Bible is true because it claims to be true and proves it by the impossibility of the contrary! It is only because the Bible is true that we have justification for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws. It is only by God's revealing Himself to us through His word that we have grounds for rational thought. We use rational thought, therefore we can know that the Bible is true. Attempting to use logic to try to disprove the only possible source for logic would be self-refuting.



Intellectual and logical evidence should be the LAST thing you go to when trying to support the Bible.

Your argument thus far has consisted of nothing more than the 1500 year old quotes from a story book that written by extremely biased people with no sense of logic. The fact that you turned to logic to explain the Bible just proves that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Seeing as how you've now shot down your own argument, I think that you lose the debate.


EDIT:

I just read past the first line of this and all that I care to say is:

Shut the fuck up.
None of what you just said made any sense and it just made you look like an oblivious jack-ass.


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## BlueStar (Sep 11, 2010)

The God of the Old Testament was a genuine dick, an absolute petty, childish, spiteful monster of a deity.  Believing he's 'changed' to become the happy fuzzy hippy loving God of the New Testament  is like the woman who goes back to an abusive husband believing he's changed and really loves her.


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## tinymonkeyt (Sep 11, 2010)

No offense, but I don't really see the point of this because no one is going to change his or her opinion because of this debate. And there's not going to be a "winner." And right now, it just seems like the 'temp vs. jet.


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## DarkLG (Sep 11, 2010)

Can we get  a mod to close this. This was a really bad idea for a poll.


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> jet™ said:
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From what the Bible says, it's not so much a "blaming" as much as it is an "inheritance". 

Every single human being after Adam and Eve were born into the world with sin. This is due to the sin that our very first ancestors committed. God said, "Hey, don't touch that or you're out". They touched it, so God said GTFObanned. Also every human born from here on will be registered with a 90% warn level from their first post. 

So now all of us are 90% warned by God. Don't slip up.


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## Law (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Welp

I probably shouldn't have burnt down that elementary school.


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## Daizu (Sep 11, 2010)

Lol, am I really the only person who picked the "There may or may not be a God. I'm not sure." one? Anyway, once someone gives me significant, solid proof that there is or isn't a God, then I'll make my decision. Really, all I see religion as is interesting mythology stories. And good plot devices.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> From what the Bible says, it's not so much a "blaming" as much as it is an "inheritance".
> 
> Every single human being after Adam and Eve were born into the world with sin. This is due to the sin that our very first ancestors committed. God said, "Hey, don't touch that or you're out". They touched it, so God said GTFObanned. Also every human born from here on will be registered with a 90% warn level from their first post.
> ...



But it still goes back to being punished for something someone else did.  If we weren't blamed for it, we wouldn't be punished for it.  God is prejudicial, therefore can not be all-forgiving or compassionate.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> From what the Bible says, it's not so much a "blaming" as much as it is an "inheritance".
> 
> Every single human being after Adam and Eve were born into the world with sin. This is due to the sin that our very first ancestors committed. God said, "Hey, don't touch that or you're out". They touched it, so God said GTFObanned. Also every human born from here on will be registered with a 90% warn level from their first post.
> ...


Do you know how much bullshit you just shoveled with that statement?

Blaming a child for something their parents did is no longer blaming? 
Please explain in a way that doesn't sound retarded.


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## geoflcl (Sep 11, 2010)

Ohh man, Jet. This is a bit of a touchy subject. But I, for one, love it!

In an attempt to make some intelligent, unbiased conversation, the factor of religion definitely comes down to *preference, values, and personal belief.*

We all know there are a ton of religions out there, ranging from "prominent" ones like Christianity (and its branches), Judaism, and Islam, to obscure ones such as Paganism. 

On the topic of some of the more "prominent" religions... Funnily enough, *many of these religions actually originate from the same core Abrahamic one, and believe in many of the same things.* They all believe in a single God, who is the origin and source of everything. The quarreling starts when differentiations arise, such as who exactly is the prophet of God, the Messiah. Christians, as well as some forms of Islam, believe that Jesus Christ is the one true savior, though differentiations exist in other forms of Islam, as well as Judaism, which tells that the Messiah has not yet come. There are certainly much, much more differences between these religion, but this is the most notable.

I think that rivalry between these religions is a bit short-sighted, most of the time.  The fact is, *they'd rather spend time opposing other religions and touting their own,* rather than actually understand what makes the other religions "tick". Why are they different? In what ways are they different? Instead of finding out, most would just rather turn the other cheek. As a result, many stereotypes have risen, distorting and warping the world's view of religion as a whole. "All Muslims are terrorists". "All Christians are good, prude, and bland people". "Jews should be made fun of, because they're Jews."  It's an unfortunate epidemic, no matter what religion it is.

*More obscure religions are also given an unfounded bad reputation.* While many label them as "black magic" or "devil-worshiping" beliefs, many of them offer peaceful, good-natured, tolerant values. Their followers mostly aren't creepy freaks who practice extreme religious rituals, and it's almost always impossible to pick them out a crowd because they follow these beliefs. Paganism is all about ecological worship, and gender equality. Followers of Unitarianism vow to accept absolutely everyone on earth, no matter what age, gender, religion, political status, or sexual orientation. Now if that isn't a damn peaceful religion, I don't know what is. It's a far cry from the vicious bickering of today's more prominent religions, at least.


Atheism/Agnosticism has seemed to rise in prominence among in this generation. While many people have genuine reason for not believing in/doubting any spiritual being, many seem to do it just for attention, or out of ignorance. Young people like teenagers are the main offenders of this stance on religion. They claim Atheism to baselessly haze anyone who thinks otherwise, and, and throw a huge, raging fit at the very _utterance_ of the word "religion" (for the lack of a better term 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ). While I respect the concept of Atheism and anyone who believes in it, it irks me that Atheists are so objective every time the topic or religion is brought up.* Atheism is a pardon of religion, not a pardon from religion.* Just because someone is atheist doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't allowed to practice their own beliefs. If one doesn't believe in the beliefs of others, they should do the right thing and just be tolerant and indifferent about it, instead of acting as if they've got a free ticket from being exposed to anyone else's beliefs.

This intolerance doesn't just plague some Atheists. As I have said before, there are many people that put down others just because they don't believe the same thing they do*. People should be allowed to practice their own beliefs, no matter what they may be, freely, without threats from others.* That's what it all comes down to: Intolerance.


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

Omnipotence is logically impossible. 

Omniscience is logically possible, but would prove god created the universe with the _intention _of having Eve eat the apple.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

0ddity said:
			
		

> Omnipotence is logically impossible.
> 
> Omniscience is logically possible, but would prove god created the universe with the _intention _of having Eve eat the apple.


So, if God did exist, than he would be nothing more than a spiteful prick?


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## injected11 (Sep 11, 2010)

BTW, poll results at the top had order of questions switched, but the voting results weren't switched with them.


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> 0ddity said:
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That's pretty much what I'm saying. Or he's like a child with a magnifying glass playing with ants.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

injected11 said:
			
		

> BTW, poll results at the top had order of questions switched, but the voting results weren't switched with them.



*This is blasphemous.

I demand a ban on the kid who can't debate.*


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> [M said:
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I think we can only refer to God as "all-forgiving or compassionate" because he gives us "one really big second chance" as the human race.

For instance, say we all weren't born with sin, we were all perfect, 100% la-dee-da. There wouldn't really need to be a reason to refer to God as all-forgiving or compassionate, because we would live in a "perfect world". There wouldn't _really_ be free-will (very important to us) now would there?

Unless of course, you believe that in that scenario, we would be born WITHOUT sin, but _still_ be enticed by sin-ly things just as Adam and Eve were, presented with free-will. Which in that case... bizzaro-land. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Sin came from somewhere... no, scratch that, WE came from somewhere/someone/something. To believe we just *POOF*'d out of the far reaches of the galaxy some second from a period of time long ago... that sounds even more ludicrous than some of the claims in this thread. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (that's not directed at you Dave, I know you didn't make those points, that's all for _everyone_ to dwell on)


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

Martin said:
			
		

> To believe we just *POOF*'d out of the far reaches of the galaxy some second from a period of time long ago... that sounds even more ludicrous than some of the claims in this thread.



That's what creationists think, not rational people.


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> Sin came from somewhere... no, scratch that, WE came from somewhere/someone/something. To believe we just *POOF*'d out of the far reaches of the galaxy some second from a period of time long ago... that sounds even more ludicrous than some of the claims in this thread.
> 
> 
> ...


No one is saying they believe we came from nothing. Straw man.


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## Daizu (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm more of a science person. If someone can say or do something and have proof of it, then I'll probably believe it. With all that science has shown us (With evolution, and genetics, and all that), I'm beginning to believe the only reason there's a God in our minds anymore is because we're scared that if there IS a God, then we're all screwed because we stopped believing. We started to believe other things, things that people can prove to us. Reluctantly, I'd say I'm just what I described. Most of my beliefs are what one would consider atheist, but in my mind I still say there's a God because I'm scared. =/ But I'm nowhere being religious, and anyone who is super-religious is probably either just scared or gullible.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> *How to debate*
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...




Looks like this shit went right out the window than, huh?
And thrown by the very one who posted it.




I demand that the poll options are switched back to their original positions. This kid is nothing more than a troll who can't stand it when the popular opinion is not his own.


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Do you know how much bullshit you just shoveled with that statement?
> 
> Blaming a child for something their parents did is no longer blaming?
> Please explain in a way that doesn't sound retarded.


No one's talking about children and direct relatives here, you're using a situation that can't be related to the one that was recorded and resides within the Bible.

Adam and Eve were the first humans created by God in his own image. They disregarded instructions and sinned, so God imprinted the blemish of sin on every human from that point onward. 

Now if your parent goes and kills someone and you're born 20 years later, of course YOU'RE not going to be arrested for their murderous act. There are laws that prevent this and, aside from that, it's just illogical.

Here, God is omniscient in the Christian culture. Crafted Adam and Eve out of his own image. He was not human. They wronged him deliberately and so he caused each of those born from them to inherit sin.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> 
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so you're saying god set up human to fail?


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

Daizu said:
			
		

> I'm more of a science person. If someone can say or do something and have proof of it, then I'll probably believe it. With all that science has shown us (With evolution, and genetics, and all that), I'm beginning to believe the only reason there's a God in our minds anymore is because we're scared that if there IS a God, then we're all screwed because we stopped believing. We started to believe other things, things that people can prove to us. Reluctantly, I'd say I'm just what I described. Most of my beliefs are what one would consider atheist, but in my mind I still say there's a God because I'm scared. =/ But I'm nowhere being religious, and anyone who is super-religious is probably either just scared or gullible.
> It took me a long time to lose that fear. I knew that it was illogical but it would keep coming back.
> 
> QUOTE([M]artin @ Sep 11 2010, 03:06 PM)
> Here, God is omniscient in the Christian culture. Crafted Adam and Eve out of his own image. He was not human. They wronged him deliberately and so he caused each of those born from them to inherit sin.


God made them knowing the outcome of his actions. It wasn't the fault of Adam and Eve that they were designed faultily.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> I think we can only refer to God as "all-forgiving or compassionate" because he gives us "one really big second chance" as the human race.
> 
> So then he's not all-forgiving or compassionate.  He forgives you on the condition that you worship him.
> ...



Sin came from what a human being writing a book of philosophy considered to be moral and not moral.  Morals change through the centuries, unfortunately the religious books haven't.  Thankfully though not all religious followers are pious enough to follow the religious books to the letter and instead choose to practice the message portrayed by their philosophies.


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## ball2012003 (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> [M said:
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Yes, as a matter of fact he did. He saw how humans were a mistake to make, but then he sent down his son Jesus to make up for all of our sins.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> I demand that the poll options are switched back to their original positions. This kid is nothing more than a troll who can't stand it when the popular opinion is not his own.



I thought it looked weird...but it's typical of god worshiper


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

ball2012003 said:
			
		

> Yes, as a matter of fact he did. He saw how humans were a mistake to make, but then he sent down his son Jesus to make up for all of our sins.


It is impossible for a prefect being to make a mistake.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> 
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Okay. The first does it so all others must follow?

If a smart person tries something and a single variable doesn't work out right, what do they do?
Do they give up because every single time it is guaranteed to happen again? Or do they start over and hope for success?

Either God doesn't exist, or he's just an idiot.


Also, your last two paragraphs are contradictory.


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> so you're saying god set up human to fail?


According to Christianity, humans are given the choice to believe in God. If you truly accept him and whatnot, when you die, you enter Heaven. That's not fail. Your test is here while you're on Earth, against sin and such. Now of course, I have different beliefs on others on what sin actually is, but that's up to each person to determine, I would assume. Never said I agree completely with the Bible word for word or anything, most of the sinful situations and their consequences are severely outdated, in my opinion.

If you fail while here on Earth and receive the outcome of residing in Hell, then yup, YOU failed.


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

"original sin" and "ancestral sin" are later christian concepts, neither term appears in the bible.



			
				Martin said:
			
		

> If you fail while here on Earth and receive the outcome of residing in Hell, then yup, YOU failed.



Won't you be surprised if the "true" god is Buddha and you end up in Naraka. 

That would be fail.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

If you truely believe your god is real..... PROVE IT

copy and paste from the bible, it not proof


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> If you truely believe your god is real..... PROVE IT
> 
> copy and paste from the bible, it not proof


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> 
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You didn't fail. God made humans knowing what the outcome of your life would be. It is the fault of God.


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

ball2012003 said:
			
		

> Yes, as a matter of fact he did. He saw how humans were a mistake to make, but then he sent down his son Jesus to make up for all of our sins.


Adam and Eve gave into temptation and made the mistake.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

-religion is man made
-most christians are hypocite....practice what you preach..plz
-biggest monster are god believers..warren jeff, mansion, hitler..nixon..etc
-hate...religous people love to discriminate against gays, women's choice, other religions, etc 
and they justify their hate with their god

So if you believe your god is real...PROVE IT


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
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So God made imperfect beings? If God was perfect every being he made would be perfect and unable to make mistakes.


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## ball2012003 (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> If you truely believe your god is real..... PROVE IT
> 
> copy and paste from the bible, it not proof


Did you just hear what you said "if you truly *believe*"
Thats what religion is "belief" its not about proof.


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## geoflcl (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Okay. The first does it so all others must follow?
> 
> If a smart person tries something and a single variable doesn't work out right, what do they do?
> Do they give up because every single time it is guaranteed to happen again? Or do they start over and hope for success?
> ...



According to the Bible, Adam and Eve were cursed when they ate that darned fruit, the fruit of Knowledge. Basically, humans were animals before they ate the fruit. They were naive, and couldn't sin, just like animals. But some religions argue that once they did, a new veil was uncovered for them, and with it, a "sin gene" was put into the gene pool (figuratively, of course), a gene we're all cursed with to this day. And since God can't come into contact with anything sinful, he can't touch us until we've proved our devotion to him by accepting him.


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> You didn't fail. God made humans knowing what the outcome of your life would be. It is the fault of God.


God presents you with free-will and choice. Therefore, yes, it is YOU that failed based on YOUR decisions. 

It may seem easy to blame all of your mistakes on one thing but... highly illogical when you're the one at the wheel.


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## ball2012003 (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> [M said:
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God gives everyone free will to do whatever they want. 
Its up to you to follow God.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> [M said:
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So it's about blindly accepting what biased people tell you?


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> 
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Free will is not possible if god is omniscient. If he isn't, then he's not much of a god. 

See Calvinists.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> You didn't fail. God made humans knowing what the outcome of your life would be. It is the fault of God.



so god knew Hitler (who believe in god) was gonna killed thousands of people and he let it happened??
am I the only one who see there's something wrong here...or did the Jews deserve it??


PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> 
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If I leave a brick out in the middle of the street and I know that the outcome of doing so will be a car accident is it not my fault for causing it?


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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Some Christians I've talked to claim it was a necessary evil, it paved the way for the jews to return to Israel, which is one of the signs of the Apocalypse, yada yada yada.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> [M said:
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if you  did  it , yes , it  is  your  fault 

(my keyboard is  broken )


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> so god knew Hitler (who believe in god) was gonna killed thousands of people and he let it happened??



Hitlers religious views are widely disputed.  By his term as Fuhrer he believed in a completely different God to the Judaic one.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Some Christians I've talked to claim it was a necessary evil, it paved the way for the jews to return to Israel, which is one of the signs of the Apocalypse, yada yada yada.



really?? so if god wanted to kill your family, kids, wife, etc..you'll just say "okay as long as it's god's plan"

I doubt you'll be saying what you just said if it was your family getting slaughter


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Every argument for God that I've seen in this thread was nothing more than broken logic, quotes from a story book, and baseless accusations.
If this is the best that people have for the existence of God, than I have no interest in this thread any longer.



PS:
*If Jet ever comes back from his cry-fest, tell him to change the poll back.*


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

wait while i restart my  windows pc. ms is bad.


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Magmorph said:
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God made humans knowing that the outcome would be bad. Whose fault is it now?


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Hitlers religious views are widely disputed. By his term as Fuhrer he believed in a completely different God to the Judaic one.



he's a christian dude..read his speaches/rants

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> PS:
> *If Jet ever comes back from his cry-fest, tell him to change the poll back.*



I've already changed it back.


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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Great, so the results are skewed, because I voted for the top one. :/


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## ball2012003 (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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Yes because your supposed love God more than anything. Also what you just said actually happened in the Bible. God told someone(I forgot the name) to kill his son in his name. The Dad didn't want to of course because it was his only child but he still listened. But before he did anything God sent down angels to stop the dad because God saw how the Dad was loyal to God more than anything else in the world.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

0ddity said:
			
		

> RoMee said:
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sorry.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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I've studied Hitler quite a bit.  He wasn't truly a Christian.  He also promoted Germanic religion during his stint as as Fuhrer.  He was a hardcore Nationalist.  The God he was referencing, usually as "The Creator" or "The Providence" wasn't the Christian God as such, it was his own ideal of it.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

@TD - Hitler could NEVER have been a christian. Mein Kampf proves this.


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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Not if (and bear with how stupid this sounds) you give that brick the free-will, choice, and knowledge to move out of the way based on the possible outcomes/consequences.

Humans =/= Inanimate Brainless Bricks (well... maybe _some_ of you... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

0ddity said:
			
		

> Great, so the results are skewed, because I voted for the top one. :/



Hang on.  I'll fix that.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> 0ddity said:
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sorry, I can't help my instinct. Forgive me.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> RoMee said:
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for a guy who is not christin, he sure loves to praise his christian god


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
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The argument that God is omniscient says otherwise.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> TrolleyDave said:
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Hitler was at one point Christian.  He believed he was divinely chosen after an incident in WW1.


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> Humans =/= Inanimate Brainless Bricks (well... maybe _some_ of you...
> 
> 
> ...


I could give it the will to move out of the way. What if I know it will not move out of the way?


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> I don't understand why you guys thinks that God's tasks are to intervene and stop every single smallest event that is deemed wrong in your personal eyes from happening.
> 
> so you're saying the slaughter of thousands of people is a "small event"??
> 
> QUOTEwrong in your personal eyes



so you don't think it's wrong


PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

God himself is responsible for the largest (alleged) genocide in history, killing every human on earth except one family (eww earth re-population by incest again.)


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> jet™ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God would have known what happened later. Hitler commited suicide, and people that deliberately commit suicide go directly to hell.


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> God would have known what happened later. Hitler commited suicide, and people that deliberately commit suicide go directly to hell.


Find me a passage in the Bible that says this.(hint: it doesn't exist.)


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> jet™ said:
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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Can't help your instinct?  So you admit that you swapped the polls around because you didn't like the results?[/b] (I'll admit that.)
> 
> Then don't open debate threads if you can't be responsible enough to accept the outcome.  I'm half tempted to close the thread simply because of that.
> 
> QUOTEGod would have known what happened later. Hitler commited suicide, and people that deliberately commit suicide go directly to hell.



But then God also knew that there'd be a genocide of people that believed in him and had faith in him.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> jet™ said:
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> 
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When I consider your heavens, the work of your
fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have
set in place, what is man that you are mindful
of him, the son of man that you care for him?
(Psalm 8:3-4)

The psalmist definitely understood something that most of us in our post-modernist culture do not. God's ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts. The creator of the universe is smart, as is shown in the works of his creation. With this mindset the Holocaust, probably the most horrible human tragedy, is put into perspective. "His thoughts are not our thoughts." Maybe "our priorities are not His priorities" would be a better way of stating the previous statement. Much lasting good has been brought about by the Holocaust. It is known by many people that we learn, we become better, and we experience good by going through the crucible of suffering, and I will give only a few of the examples of this. Because of the Holocaust, anti-Semitism is being removed from the church, i.e. the world-wide body of believers of Jesus, and its theology. Another example of good that has come out of the Holocaust would be the establishment of Israel. The second moment of clarity came from Luna Kauffman. While we were at the former concentration camp outside of Krakow, she was explaining what the local Polish citizens knew. Obviously, they knew a lot, even if they did not have complete knowledge. Luna told us that the locals could smell the burning flesh from Auschwitz. They had to have noticed the millions of Jews from Poland which were taken away. And then it became clear to me. 15

People let the Holocaust happen. From the bystanders in Germany to F.D.R. in the United States, humanity let this happen. How many countries turned away the Jews before the Holocaust began? The Allied armies refused to bomb Auschwitz. Many people voted for Hitler. When Hitler began his aggression, the community of nations did not speak up. People looked away and permitted evil. Some went so far as to invite this evil. People did too little. Given all of this, why do we try to place the blame of the Holocaust with God? As I was told in elementary school, when you point a finger at someone you have three pointing back at yourself. After studying the Holocaust for so long, it has become abundantly clear that humanity failed several times. So why did God let the Holocaust happen? I do not have an answer for that, and I don't claim to understand God's ways. I do know where the blame lies for the Holocaust. The blame lies with the Nazis and with the numerous people all over the world who did nothing. Blaming God is disingenuous. It actually is quite audacious. The responsibility for the Holocaust does not lie with God. As I have shown, humanity is fully responsible for what it has done and allowed to happen. Humanity just isn't in the place to blame God.

~Geoff Robinson


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Magmorph said:
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That says noting about going to hell. All sins can be forgiven besides blasphemy.


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## [M]artin (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> [M said:
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And have a wonderful day, chaps and chapettes.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> jet™ said:
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Look at what Hitler did beforehand. Comitting suicide has to be the icing on the cake for that bastard. Genocide, followed by blasphemy by worshipping his own variation of the christian'God' that supposedly allowed genocide afterwards, then suicide?


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## giratina16 (Sep 11, 2010)

No I don't believe on God for the simple fact. I refuse to live by a book. It's like me living in a Harry Potter book. Plus I'm a scientist and yes there are many religious scientists but I don't want it to influence my work. In my eyes it's all bullshit, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Also religion causes too many wars and it's mostly Christianity.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> When I consider your heavens, the work of your
> fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have
> set in place, what is man that you are mindful
> of him, the son of man that you care for him?
> ...



Nice copy paste job.  Yes people did let the Holocaust happen, well until they decided to attack Hitler for it.  But if God knew the outcome of Hitlers life then God created the Holocaust.  He initiated the event through his creation.  In effect, God created the Holocaust and allowed it to happen.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

@TD - God may have created the holocaust to test his followers, as he did with the angel in egypt, and the manna in the desert. Jews have undergone a lot of terrible things, in common, but it may be for one  reason in the end, a good stay in heaven. Who are we to understand God?


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

[M said:
			
		

> artin]
> 
> 
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I don't think anyone hates you. You are one of the more respectful Christians I have debated with about religion.


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## Blaze163 (Sep 11, 2010)

Hmm...that's a knotty one. Truth be told, I don't place any stock in religion. While I can see that if used correctly it can be empowering, giving meaning to those who seek it and perhaps some element of peace in their lives, we as humans never use anything in any sort of moral way. Ergo religion is little more than a way to control the masses, terrifying them with threats of eternal damnation if they don't join your particular group. It's little more than gang warfare with a higher budget. Sad really. Not to mention that if there is a God looking down on us, I personally think seeing such things would make him rather ashamed of his work. 

As for whether or not there is a God, I'm not qualified to answer. I after all am merely a mortal man trying to make his way in the world. Truth be told I always thought the only idea that made sense to me was the Gaia theory. Physics 101, 'energy cannot be created or destroyed', correct? It's a fact of nature that all energy is recycled endlessly, much like the Gaia theory. Whether or not the Earth is alive is anyone's guess, but it like us would essentially be a large ball of carbon atoms filled with energy.

I tend not to worry about things like this as a general rule. The way I see it, I'll worry about the afterlife when I get there, not before. I have enough problems in my current life, I'm not really in a position to worry about my next one right now. I just do my best to be a good person, but out of desire to see mankind progress and evolve, maybe one day walking on other worlds instead of watching Big Brother. Not out of fear of some invisible thing which was in all probability merely invented by man as a control device for the less fortunate. If God wants my faith, let's see him ask for it nicely. I don't think that's too much to ask. To blindly follow something you don't even know exists is folly, and a good way of letting your life slip through your fingers with no way of hanging on to the slightest element of self control. You're not truly free when you give your soul over to religion, your actions are unfairly inhibited out of fear, and while I can see why that could make sense, I feel mankind must face life on our own terms, be who we are to be and let history judge us, not let fear control us.


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## ball2012003 (Sep 11, 2010)

giratina16 said:
			
		

> No I don't believe on God for the simple fact. I refuse to live by a book. It's like me living in a Harry Potter book. Plus I'm a scientist and yes there are many religious scientists but I don't want it to influence my work. In my eyes it's all bullshit, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Also religion causes too many wars and it's mostly Christianity.


Name the wars please.


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## 0ddity (Sep 11, 2010)

Isn't stealing also one of the commandments? Yet anyone who downloads and using a rom is basically committing theft. Is everyone who's ever downloaded a rom going to hell?


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone hates you. You are one of the more respectful Christians I have debated with about religion.



agreed


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## Magmorph (Sep 11, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Look at what Hitler did beforehand. Comitting suicide has to be the icing on the cake for that bastard. Genocide, followed by blasphemy by worshipping his own variation of the christian'God' that supposedly allowed genocide afterwards, then suicide?
> I was simply pointing out that the Bible does not say that people who commit suicide go to hell.
> 
> 
> ...


If believe the Bible you will find plenty of wars in it.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 11, 2010)

ball2012003 said:
			
		

> Name the wars please.



The Crusades were a religious war.  The Inquisition was also a war against non-believers, ableit not in the classical sense.  We could throw in some of the conquests of Mohammed as well.


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## Deleted User (Sep 11, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> [M said:
> 
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Yes, Martin. I think everyone hates me, but you are a great guy. Friends?

I've really gotta go now. Thanks for the great debate!


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

@jet..you can end this debate

just PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL..

it's your burden


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## giratina16 (Sep 11, 2010)

ball2012003 said:
			
		

> giratina16 said:
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Muslim conquests, La French Wars of Religion (like how I put the La in there?), the Crusades and the Reconquista. Also let us not forget the amount of Pagans the Christians slaughtered.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

giratina16 said:
			
		

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Fixed.


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## giratina16 (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

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Thank you very much. =)


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## Blaze163 (Sep 11, 2010)

Oddly enough I went to a Christian primary school. Heckington Church of England school. Years 1-5. I hated it but it was the only school for about 20 miles. Always going on about how Christians never do anything wrong. Yeah, tell that to the little bastard that pushed me over in the playground onto those odd tiles you normally see near zebra crossings, tearing half the skin off my face and making me look like the fucking Terminator for over a month. Yeah, Christian kids never act up...


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## XLarge (Sep 11, 2010)

Religion kills more than it saves


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## Infinite Zero (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Have you seen the news lately?
> 
> If there was a God (or at least a competent one) monitoring all of this, he/she would never have let things get this bad.
> You know why this all happens? It's also because of man. Adam and Eve sinned because the devil(serpent) deceived them.
> ...


Will no religion help control all the havoc? I think not.


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## XLarge (Sep 11, 2010)

Infinite Zero said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
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Not all the havoc but let's say about 80% of it.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Infinite Zero said:
			
		

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God is omniscient, God is the greatest good. God lets us wallow in the waste of other people's bad decisions.
----

----
Actually, that is very logical to believe.


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## Midna (Sep 11, 2010)

Hahaha. The last debate. That's a funny one. I'm sorry sir, but I doubt this debate will never be over as long as there is sentient life.

I went for the third. I see little evidence for or against either side, really.


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## Blaze163 (Sep 11, 2010)

The one thing that REALLY pisses me off about Christianity is the belief that we're all locked in some sort of sinful embrace with Satan until we're baptised. From the moment we're born we're all inherently evil. Well fuck you. I do my best to be a good person, to my friends and to random people. I'm always helping people out. Not for rewards, not to make God proud of me, not to earn a place in paradise, just because doing the right thing is self justifying. As famously stated by Zidane Tribal, you don't need a reason to help people. I was never baptised. At least not to my knowledge. Does that make me evil? Well if I'm evil then all the better for evil because at least I try to be good instead of thinking that going to a big room once a week and looking bored is enough to justify my existence and earn the rewards with none of the effort. Fuck you baptism.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Blaze163 said:
			
		

> The one thing that REALLY pisses me off about Christianity is the belief that we're all locked in some sort of sinful embrace with Satan until we're baptised. From the moment we're born we're all inherently evil. Well fuck you. I do my best to be a good person, to my friends and to random people. I'm always helping people out. Not for rewards, not to make God proud of me, not to earn a place in paradise, just because doing the right thing is self justifying. As famously stated by Zidane Tribal, you don't need a reason to help people. I was never baptised. At least not to my knowledge. Does that make me evil? Well if I'm evil then all the better for evil because at least I try to be good instead of thinking that going to a big room once a week and looking bored is enough to justify my existence and earn the rewards with none of the effort. Fuck you baptism.


Boy, you goin' to Hell.


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

what pisses me off about christianity is, they always talk about how they are so moral, but yet they dominate our prison.
they have a habit trying to enforce their religion, and they justify their hate with their god

believe what you want just keep your god to yourself

If the early churches had not suppressed science, we would all be playing so awesome games right now


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## Depravo (Sep 11, 2010)

Blaze163 said:
			
		

> As famously stated by Zidane Tribal, you don't need a reason to help people.


Nice. Religious people follow the example of the Prophet Parappa - "I gotta believe!!!!"


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## XLarge (Sep 11, 2010)

Isn't it ironic? That which is supposed to help us in bad times is a major cause of war. Why can't people accept each other and just live on with their lives, live and let live.

The only reason religion was ever needed was to scare people, especially in the dark ages where religion was used to motivate people to do the right thing, in reality everything was/is corrupted. Those which we are believed to be the most pure could also be the most crooked. Who knows how Jesus really was? All we have is books and anyone could have written them. So why can't we just move on with our lives and accept that what we do is what we get back, the idea of someone watching us is plain stupid. Even if it's to "help" us in harder times.


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## Blaze163 (Sep 11, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Blaze163 said:
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Hell can bring it, as far as I'm concerned. I've already come back from the dead once. And if Dante's Inferno is any indication of the sort of things I can expect from Hell, I'll have beaten the Devil into a puddle of slop with his own tail and laughed over his broken remains within about 7 hours


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Blaze163 said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
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SOUNDS LIKE DEVIL-SPEAK TO ME!

Alos:
That game was awful. The poem was much better in my opinion.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 11, 2010)

I'm not reading through twelve pages of bullshit, however:

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able, he is not omnipotent.
If God is able, but not willing, he is malevolent.
If God is both willing and able, then whence cometh evil?
If God is neither willing, nor able, then why call him god?" -Epicure

That must have come up in the topic somewhere.  I think it's a logical way to argue. Hey, religious people, argue that quote please. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




As for my view, I'm not sure. Although I am an aspiring Muslim, the one thing missing is my belief in God. I have too many questions left unanswered about this.


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## spinal_cord (Sep 11, 2010)

Well, these 11 pages have almost been an interesting read. geoflcl made some very interesting points back there on page 6. However most of you are either quoting the bible or claiming that the bible quotes prove nothing.
The truth is, we have no evidence at all as to the existence of and afterlife or of god(s). What we do have evidence of, is that religion has been used as a weapon against other people from the beginning. These may be specific people, different religions, different countries, different sex. However, a problem percists that most children will follow the religion of their parents. They do this becasue they are tought only about that religion from an early age, folk who beleive in a god or an afterlife did not come to that idea on their own, they were told about it. Just because this has been going on for thousands of years does not make it true. You can quote a holy book as much as you like, but you must remember that this holy book (whichever one) was written by MAN thousands of years ago. Parts of these books have been changed or removed completely over the centuries, we have at least some evidence of this. The books that you quote are not the same as they were when they were written. That's not to say that they are not useful guides, however they should not be used as the ONLY guides.
If you are one of those who believe these books to have been dictated by a god, I would like to ask why you believe this, the book saying so can not be used as proof for the simple reason that they are thousands of years old and have changed over the years. There have been many opertunities of someone to write 'God was here' in them knowing it to be false.
for the record I do not believe in any sort of afterlife, nor do I believe in a god or gods. I feel that this contributes to me being a 'good person' in that I have no learned (through my religion) that I am automatically better than anyone else, or that I should pitty someone because of that they believe. I have no problem knowing that many many people around the world believe in these things, although I can't claim to fully see their point of view. I have trouble seeing that other people do not come to the same conlusion that I have, which as we know starts all sorts of problems. Atheism is afterall just another religion, the majorty of athiests believe without personal proof, that there is no god or afterlife. They have been told this by older generations so they axcept it.
But one thing does bother me a little, some religions claim that earth is the chosen planet and the only one to have life... even though each star you see in the sky probaly has a handful of planets. There are billions if not more stars out there, making many many times more planets floating around. Even if the smallest percentage of those are capable of sustaining life, I think I read somewhere the estimate to be around 0.0002%, thats still a heck of a lot of life supporting planets out there. Now granted, at the time these holy books were written MAN did not even imagine there could be life out there, surely that points to god(s) not being involved in the writing of these books?

I may have gone a little off track there, but maybe not. I cant be bothered to re-read what I have typed.

... crickey, make that 12 pages


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## monkat (Sep 11, 2010)

Wait...this is the last debate?!



Anyway, there must be a god, proof:


Spoiler











Seriously, though, don't care. If there is, it doesn't make a difference, does it? The only thing that changes is that there's one more thing that I'm better than.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> I'm not reading through twelve pages of bullshit, however:
> 
> "If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able, he is not omnipotent.
> If God is able, but not willing, he is malevolent.
> ...


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

I have been pondering about the dark ages and the time the RCC controlled essentially all scientific knowledge is;

-Would we be more advanced technologically today? 
-Could the industrial revolution started earlier? 
-Would polygamy and people like hitler existed? 
-what galileo galilei could have accomplished

maybe I should  make a poll too


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## Tanas (Sep 11, 2010)

Religion summed up in a single picture...


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## DeadLocked (Sep 11, 2010)

No
God(s) is a creation of human beings to explain the absence of knowledge of sciences etc.
If we knew about every single thing in the universe that was discoverable in the first place then there would have been no idea of such religion or it would have never caught on.

In short:
*God is there to explain how things exist in the absence of the true reason things exist*.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> I have been pondering about the dark ages and the time the RCC controlled essentially all scientific knowledge is;
> 
> -Would we be more advanced technologically today?
> -Could the industrial revolution started earlier?
> ...


Nah, it's cool. I'll answer them for you:

Yes, of course we'd have more advanced technology today. 

Perhaps. This one is a little harder to answer, however, in my opinion, I think it would have started earlier.

Possibly. Yes, Hitler would still be born. Whether he would come into power is another story and is a rhetorical question. To clarify, science doesn't bring out the best in people.


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## Depravo (Sep 11, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> Yes, of course we'd have more advanced technology today.


Unless we'd already blown ourselves to buggeration.


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## KingdomBlade (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> The universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws.
> -Stephen Hawking
> 
> QUOTE
> ...



Also, the debate about the Bible was fail. The Bible is not the only book which shows belief in a God. How about we debate about the Torah or Koran next?

Anyway, read the things in quotes.


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## juggernaut911 (Sep 11, 2010)

Religion thread. "NO HATRED ALLOWED LOL!L!az!!"
Have fun, mods.

People need to understand what faith is and that people put faith in things that some people do not.


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## monkat (Sep 11, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> -Would polygamy and people like hitler existed?



And what exactly is wrong with polygamy!? Moreover, what is so wrong with it that you equate it with hitler!?


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## RoMee (Sep 11, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> And what exactly is wrong with polygamy!?



pedophilia

I'm okay with the multiple wives thing but a 40 year old man having a multiple 13 year old wives is disturbing

but who would want multiple wives..one is already too many


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 11, 2010)

spinal_cord said:
			
		

> Well, these 11 pages have almost been an interesting read. geoflcl made some very interesting points back there on page 6. However most of you are either quoting the bible or claiming that the bible quotes prove nothing.
> The truth is, we have no evidence at all as to the existence of and afterlife or of god(s). What we do have evidence of, is that religion has been used as a weapon against other people from the beginning. These may be specific people, different religions, different countries, different sex. However, a problem percists that most children will follow the religion of their parents. They do this becasue they are tought only about that religion from an early age, folk who beleive in a god or an afterlife did not come to that idea on their own, they were told about it. Just because this has been going on for thousands of years does not make it true. You can quote a holy book as much as you like, but you must remember that this holy book (whichever one) was written by MAN thousands of years ago. Parts of these books have been changed or removed completely over the centuries, we have at least some evidence of this. The books that you quote are not the same as they were when they were written. That's not to say that they are not useful guides, however they should not be used as the ONLY guides.
> If you are one of those who believe these books to have been dictated by a god, I would like to ask why you believe this, the book saying so can not be used as proof for the simple reason that they are thousands of years old and have changed over the years. There have been many opertunities of someone to write 'God was here' in them knowing it to be false.
> for the record I do not believe in any sort of afterlife, nor do I believe in a god or gods. I feel that this contributes to me being a 'good person' in that I have no learned (through my religion) that I am automatically better than anyone else, or that I should pitty someone because of that they believe. I have no problem knowing that many many people around the world believe in these things, although I can't claim to fully see their point of view. I have trouble seeing that other people do not come to the same conlusion that I have, which as we know starts all sorts of problems. Atheism is afterall just another religion, the majorty of athiests believe without personal proof, that there is no god or afterlife. They have been told this by older generations so they axcept it.
> ...


This has been argued before, and if I may ask, what makes you aspire to become a muslim?


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## monkat (Sep 12, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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I'm talking about straight polygamy - a man with multiple consenting wives, or a woman with multiple consensual husbands - or general partners, for that matter.

And honestly, the whole marriage thing isn't all that bad, you just have to find someone (or a few people) that you can stand for years upon years, and can do the same for you. Polygamy actually aids the situation by adding variety.


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## RoMee (Sep 12, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> RoMee said:
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I am married and one is enough
and I'm talking about religious polygamy compound

if you like multiple partners..muslim has that 72 virgins thingy


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> Actually islam specifically says that Aliens exist. And most scholars actually believe that the quran that is currently being used is as it was when it was written.



Admittedly I've only read it all the way through once, but I don't remember mention of alien life in the Qu'ran?


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> [W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?


Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts. 

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually _trying_ to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> BobTheJoeBob said:
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Sura 42 Verse 49 (42:49)


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## Blaze163 (Sep 12, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> if you like multiple partners..muslim has that 72 virgins thingy



I see your 72 virgins and I raise you this.


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## Tanas (Sep 12, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> BobTheJoeBob said:
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Plus another good reason to choose Islam over Christianity is that you get to fuck 72 virgins after you die.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

71 Virginians.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> TrolleyDave said:
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I still don't see it?  Unless you're referring to "the heavens" as space?


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> BobTheJoeBob said:
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This should clarify it:


Spoiler



In Sura 42,Verse 29 (42:29) of the Quran,we are told, "Among His (God's) signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth,and the living creatures that He has scattered through them :and He has power to gather them together when He wills." (8) Before proceeding further,a point or two must be noted.The word "sama",translated "heavens",is also the Arabic for "sky".One may object that the verse refers to creatures in the sky (which would be birds),not in the heavens.However,birds are mentioned seperately from creatures of the heavens in 24:41, "Seest thou not that it is God Whose praise all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate,and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread?..." (9) In a note to 42;29,Muhammad Asad states,"In the Quran,the expression "the heavens and earth" invariably denotes the universe in its entireity." (10) The Quran mentions that inanimate objects also worship God:"Do they not look at God's creation, (even) among (inanimate) things- how their (very) shadows turn round,from right to left,prostrating themselves to God..."(16:48). (11) Therefore,may not the creatures spoken of in 42:29 in the heavens,be inanimate creatures of God.No.The next verse,16:49 goes, "And to God doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and earth,whether moving (living) creatures or the angels...". (12) The word translated "living creatures" here is the same as that in 42:29- "Dabbatun".Comments Asad,"The word dabbah denotes any sentient,corporeal being capable of spontaneous movement and is contrasted here with the non-corporeal,spiritual beings designated as "angels" ". (13) In other words,42:29 is referring to precisely the type of lifeforms that science is searching for,not some metaphysical entities.Yusuf Ali says,"Dabbatun:beasts,living,crawling creatures of all kind." (14) This is the same word used in 2:164,"...in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth...are signs for a people that are wise," (15) and in 24:45,"And God has created every animal from waterf them are some that creep on their bellies;some that walk on two legs;and some that walk on four. God creates what he wills..." (16) Commenting on 42:29,Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani says,"From the verse it appears that like on the earth,there are some kinds of animals- living creatures- in the heavens also." (17) On the same verse,Yusuf Ali comments, "Life is not confined to our one little Planet.It is a very old speculation to imagine some life like human life on the planet Mars...it is reasonable to suppose that Life in some form or other is scattered through some of the millions of heavenly bodies scattered through space." (18) From such remarks,the reader will realize that Muslim scholars are well aware of the fact that 42:29 clearly mentions the existence of aliens.


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## monkat (Sep 12, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> 71 Virginians.



Trust me when I say that you don't want 71 Virginians. Horrible drivers. All stupid due to horrible public education.

@BOB:

You're an idiot. In many languages, especially in the past, sky and heavens were the same word. Ciel in French means both, for example.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

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Uhh, yeah:


Spoiler



Sura 27:65 commands,"Say:None in the heavens or on earth, except God,knows what is hidden:nor can they perceive when they shall be raised up (for Judgement)." (22) This shows that,like humans,there are other creatures in the universe that will also be raised from the dead.We are told in 19:93-96,"Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (God) Most Gracious as a servant.He does take an account of them (all),and hath numbered them (all) exactly.And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgement.On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (God) Most Gracious bestow love." (23) From these verses we learn that there are alien lifeforms that,like us,will also be judged according to the works that they do during their lives.Among them are the believers.Therefore,naturally,there will also be those aliens who are unbelievers.The believers will be rewarded.The lifeforms being descibed in the above verses can hardly be expected to be microorganisms.The Quran is referring to creatures of a level of development that makes them morally accountable beings.They must be organisms possessing qualities which we would ascribe to intelligent lifeforms.


Don't just start calling people, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT idiots.


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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There are some scientific facts in the Bible as well. There are certainly contradictions in the Qur'an but I can't disagree that it has less than the Bible.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> I still don't see it?  Unless you're referring to "the heavens" as space?
> 
> This should clarify it:
> 
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Ah yeah, I've read that before.  I've dismissed the theory that it refers to aliens because there are also Islamic scholars who have said that the fact that the Qu'ran refers to the "seven heavens" and the Earth has 7 layers of atmosphere proof that it's from a divine source.  It matches science to a verse.  In my opinion that's what's happening here.  On the one hand they say that the heavens refer to outer space and on the other they refer to the 7th heaven as being the uppermost layer of atmosphere.  Of course, the 7 heavens/atmosphere theory only came about since the discovery but it still contradicts the scholars interperatation of that particular verse.  I don't believe for a second it's referring to aliens, but that's just my opinion obviously.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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Could you point out a contradiction? (I mean that in the serious tone)


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## Tanas (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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Heres a few here.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

Tanas said:
			
		

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I was talking about the quran.


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## Tanas (Sep 12, 2010)

oops sorry 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I suggest a quick google search.


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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From the nearly infinite number of ways a given passage can be interpreted I don't think it's worth my time to try to convince you. If I point one out the argument will be that I wasn't interpreting it correctly. I can't assume that a follower of any religion would take an unbiased look at their holy book.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> Could you point out a contradiction? (I mean that in the serious tone)



The problem with pointing out contradictions in the Qu'ran is the abrogation clause that's in it.  So nothing contradicts itself, it merely brings in a new passage, rule or what have you.


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## Infinite Zero (Sep 12, 2010)

Berthenk said:
			
		

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It* YOUR *burden. We won't do all the work for you if you wouldn't like to listen. I know and feel that He is real.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

I'd just like to say something.

Religion is not a bad thing. It provides a voice of reason for people to listen to and ensures that some people will act in a civilized manner in most cases.



The Bible is pure fiction. Anyone who believes that every species of animal in the world was within walking distance to Noah's home is just retarded.

The Bible is not a recollection of events that actually happened, it is a book of stories telling of how a good Christian should act.


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

Infinite Zero said:
			
		

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If you make an assertion the burden of proof is on you. You do have to do the work if you want to convince someone that the assertion is true.


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## Infinite Zero (Sep 12, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Are you implying that Germans are not part of mankind? *Nope. Sorry if I underlined that part.*
> 
> I also think you might be misinformed on the origin of the Bible. *If I am, will YOU tell me the true origin?? *
> 
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## FAST6191 (Sep 12, 2010)

Once again I find myself ill prepared/unwilling to play this game again. In general when playing this game he who is away with the faeries is probably long past the point of no return (or the point where the amount of effort required is not worth the reward)- my focus tends to be on those just deciding such things (predictably I am not always a favourite among the religious with children).

Re those who download a rom being guilty of stealing (assuming it was not for the purposes of education, satire, criticism or review of course)- that is some act of foretelling for ancient laws written, translated and interpreted to comprehend and implement intellectual property much less account for the subtle variations across space, time and legal precedent.

Suicide as murder- if murder is a law based thing (that is to say at points killing is justifiable) as defined by the state and suicide is not against the law what part does the state (which history has long shown to be relatively short lived in nature) have in religion.

Division of religion (in some instances it is called denomination)- picking on Christianity here to start with but name a system of belief and I will afford a similar example (to some the norse gods, Paganism and/or Heathenism historically was something of a slur or generalisation so it is probably best to avoid the term without further expansion, were merely examples or indeed historical figures of a sort while to others deity status was conferred and we also have the ever fun Sunni and Shiah/Shiite division). I always find it amusing that such groups can be lumped together as numbers might afford or the argument finds reason for yet deep (or not so deep) theological arguments* will usually arise upon meeting of the groups. As with many things it seems to be a spread spectrum of belief and this complicates things immensely (and if it does not I just have complicated it).

*sticking with Christianity (or indeed the Abrahamic religions)- transubstantiation, sainthood (or indeed any divinely influenced act), new vs old testament vs Book of Mormon (and the subsets within that) vs Jesuit (admittedly not in the same league as others in this list) vs Jehovah's Witnesses vs Amish, interpretation of texts (literal, liberal, hybrid, otherwise),subsequent religious texts (Lord's prayer for instance), translation of works, papal decree, repurposing of existing beliefs/festivals/traditions* and hybridisation of religions (not the same as repurposing)- see several of the Caribbean mergings with West African tribal religions or indeed creation following from Ragnarok.

*Saturnalia vs Christmas for one.

Many of the pro religion arguments I have read before (almost word for word), merely an observation at this point.

I am far too lazy to go back pages at this point but the person who said "face to face with Budda" might wish to refresh themselves on the concept behind the system.

Re 72 virgins- my chosen clip.


In general for me
Galactic scales (time, space, energy, entropy) piss all over religion as it is presently/commonly defined (how does Israel figure into Pangea again?)
You can however believe what you want- such beliefs will be afforded no respect though
Physics has manifested all manner of things and can demonstrably do more, religion's modern tally amounts to a nice money maker and support structure.


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## Blood Fetish (Sep 12, 2010)

There is no quantifiable evidence of a God, therefore all religions are fool's endeavors. I could tell you that I am your god given human form and you would be required to accept that regardless of evidence. There is no difference between believing in a god figure and believing in the tooth fairy.


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## RoMee (Sep 12, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Atheists... that's the non-stop question that's asked every time. Don't you get it? It's simply believing in things you cannot see. Humans have limited knowledge. Not everything you say about science is accurate.



I don't see zeus is he real??

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

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Of course Zeus is real.


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

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Of course he is. Where do you think lightning comes from?


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## RoMee (Sep 12, 2010)

lol...


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## DiscostewSM (Sep 12, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL



Only a perfect person can prove God's existance. Imperfect people just toss the issue aside because it is just simpler to do so.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Atheists... that's the non-stop question that's asked every time. Don't you get it? It's simply believing in things you cannot see.You mean you have to be a lunatic to believe in God? Why the fuck would you ever believe in something that cannot be seen? What makes God more special than good ol' Santy Claus?
> 
> Brah, do you believe in unicorns, fairies, spaghetti monsters, and invisible monkeys? No? Why not?
> 
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The same can be said for religion.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

DiscostewSM said:
			
		

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But if God is perfect and we were made in "his" image, would we not be perfect?


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## worlok375 (Sep 12, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

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We were made in his image and thus what we do after that is up to us. (seeing as he gave up free will)


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## Hellow (Sep 12, 2010)

ill believe in god when i see it.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

A few posts from me on the issue of human perfection (assuming God exists of course):



Spoiler



God is perfect, correct? God created man? We remain perfect as long as God remains perfect because we came from a perfect being. What we do evidently does not matter at all as long as our creator remains perfect. A shortcoming of man is a shortcoming of God. Why? Because God had the power to stop a shortcoming, but didn't. If God is still perfect after a shortcoming, then so are we. 

You're missing my point. I'm not claiming to be perfect. I'm claiming God is not perfect. If you think God is perfect, then you MUST think man is perfect, because we came from a perfect being. Nothing can ever taint perfection because everything that perfect being does is perfect. Every "wrong" decision made is the "perfect" decision.

For full topic, read here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...=15481&st=0 My points on perfection start on page 21, if you want to skip ahead. Sorry about this, but I get so tired of arguing the perfection of God.

By the way, those other atheist posters make awesome points.


Note: Taken from another forum I frequent.


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## DiscostewSM (Sep 12, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

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If we were perfect without ever being imperfect, then what would be the point of life? That's why some religions say that life is like an elevator (ok, maybe not exactly like that), where you can go up or down. In a specific religion, the Mormons, believe that God once was as were are now, and that he is now what we will become. Sounds kinda blasphemous that God was once not God, but I dunno. They also believe that we are children of God, and now that I think about it, what father/mother would want to restrict their children from having what they have? But, a father/mother let's them choose, right? I guess that's why they are so family-oriented.


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## RoMee (Sep 12, 2010)

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL

If you can't than it's just all in your head

religion/god/jesus is all man made to combat man fear...nothing more


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL



While I appreciate what you're trying to do, you just keep posting that over and over and it's getting tiresome.  Either start adding more to the conversation or post that alot less.


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## Hellow (Sep 12, 2010)

I dont think religion in general is a good thing. Its caused so much bad in the world, religious wars, killing of teenage gays, there was a story about a christian man attempting to shoot an abortionist because it was against gods will. i dont understand this because isnt killing someone against gods will, and isnt showing pride a sin? this man seemed to be pretty proud of his attempt even in jail.
nowhere in the bible does it say or imply that being gay is a sin, so why do so many americans hold signs saying "god hates gays".
I just dont understand you americans :/


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## GreatCrippler (Sep 12, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

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Why? It's a valid point. Until someone manages, they are just being closed minded.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

GreatCrippler said:
			
		

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Because it's just spamming the same thing over and over.  He could at least put some effort and word it differently.


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## Phoenix Goddess (Sep 12, 2010)

GreatCrippler said:
			
		

> Why? It's a valid point. Until someone manages, they are just being closed minded.



Ah, so anyone who has a religion or believes in God is close-minded? That's quite a close-minded thing to say.

People have every right to believe in whatever they choose to believe in and no one can ridicule them or tell them different.

This debate shouldn't even be open to debate, simply for reasons like this, bashing because someone* believes* in a higher being.


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## OSW (Sep 12, 2010)

What I don't get is, if there is a god, why does he have to be as various religions/bibles describe him?
Why do you believe things that could easily have been written by maniacs, or as stories of fiction?

Why is anyone religious? I'm sure it's due to the people around you, convincing you (unless you had some kind of divine vision). And in that case, couldn't they just be decieving you? Or more optimistically, they themselves are decieved and simply spreading the mistruth.

If you wanna live a life based on the moral standards that you believe are best, and believing that there is a higher power out there, go ahead. I somewhat do that (but I don't have a clear vision of "god". And I don't believe anyone who thinks they do, because "god" is supposably beyond our comprehension, omnipotent, perfect etc).

However, formal religion is useless. No one religion has any claim/evidence to a "more accurate" portrayal of god/history than any other, so why should you be a catholic/muslim/Buddhist or whatever? Why not start your own religion in the belief that "god will guide you" lol.. (im sure so many religions started like this)..

One more thing. Why does god want us to worship him? Isn't that selfishness/greed (an attribute a perfect being shouldnt have right..?)

I guess I believe in "higher powers", but I don't believe that they can be "perfect" as "God" supposably is.
There could just as well be "aliens" who created us as an experiment of theirs


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## Hellow (Sep 12, 2010)

@OSW
exactly what i think. The bibles could be written by any random maniac with an over reactive imagination. Just because a whole bunch of people say something doesnt make it true.


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## nutella (Sep 12, 2010)

There's no way we as human beings can prove th existence of a god through concrete facts. We can however think rationally and come to the conclusion that there must be an almighty being for everything to make sense. I personally believe that I would be lying to myself if I said that everything around me came about by chance. At the end of the day, to believe in a god, you must take a leap of faith, which most people are not willing to do for whatever reason.

However, I do think its somewhat lazy to say that a god can't exist because of the state of the world now. We all fail time and time again. I don't know about you, but if I fail, I don't just sit there expecting someone to change it for me. I'm not buying into this cynical view for a second. If you think its bad today, it could be much worse. In fact, it has been much worse.

And please don't think I'm calling anyone stupid because they don't worship a god. I just don't see how a god can not exist. All in all, nothing is going to change, because as humans we're all emotionally attached to our own arguments. Feel free to interject, but I have nothing else to say.


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## GreatCrippler (Sep 12, 2010)

phoenixgoddess27 said:
			
		

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He asked for proof. Something simple. Not unreasonable at all. People wanting to believe in pixies are closed minded. Sorry, simple logic.


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## ether2802 (Sep 12, 2010)

1. there's a GOD
2. HE has nothing to do with religion(s)
3. GOD does not want us to be worshiping him, he just want us to apreciated us each other (no matter what)
4. HE loves you even if you don't believe in him, otherwise you wouldn't exist, simple.
5. THIS is the worst debate ever..!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 proving there is a GOD is really simple, but in the eyes of someone expecting something coming down from the sky just to tell him "....YES, I exist...see, touch me, you are not high on drugs again....", is like to prove the earth is round to a british from the XIII century...!!


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## Phoenix Goddess (Sep 12, 2010)

GreatCrippler said:
			
		

> He asked for proof. Something simple. Not unreasonable at all. People wanting to believe in pixies are closed minded. Sorry, simple logic.



If that's your definition of "logic" you may want to go back to school.

This debate isn't on religion, it's about God, I see no other religion in this thread.
Where's Taoism? Buddhism? Catholicism? Where's the rest of the religions?

I love your answer ether


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## monkat (Sep 12, 2010)

GreatCrippler said:
			
		

> He asked for proof. Something simple. Not unreasonable at all. People wanting to believe in pixies are closed minded. Sorry, simple logic.



Absolutely - we don't care. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Reposting the same thing over and over again is not acceptable, even if it were to have been a good point.


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## GreatCrippler (Sep 12, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

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"Lets talk about the possibility of pixies... They must exist."

"Prove it" 

"No, no they exist in a magical world of happiness, and sunshine."

"Shut up and prove it."



Sorry, but the belief in god is outdated. Proof, or you're talking about content of mythology, and nothing more.


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## DiscostewSM (Sep 12, 2010)

OSW said:
			
		

> One more thing. Why does god want us to worship him? Isn't that selfishness/greed (an attribute a perfect being shouldnt have right..?)



And interesting point, but selfishness comes at a gain to one's self, and not to others. The people of the Bible pray to him, but also with requests, for which if the people were good, then blessings would come down to them in various forms, like rain for the crops, protection from their foes, etc. Plus, such things like graven images, like a golden calf, might have something to do with it, since those give nothing in return, but the people give them all they have.


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## DiscostewSM (Sep 12, 2010)

Speaking of proof that God exists, what about proof that God does not exist? Can mankind explain everything? If not, then how can one prove that God does or does not exist?


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

DiscostewSM said:
			
		

> Speaking of proof that God exists, what about proof that God does not exist? Can mankind explain everything? If not, then how can one prove that God does or does not exist?



And hence why a debate over the existence of God will forever go on as the existence or non-existence of an incomprehensible higher power is unwinnable.  The better thing to do is debate whether or not the religious tomes are actually the work of forward thinking philosophers but still men, or the inspiration of a divine all-knowing being.  And whether or not the being or beings described as God(s) is accurate according to those faiths.


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## monkat (Sep 12, 2010)

I personally don't care about religion, but for the sake of debate, I'm going to play the devil's advocate (pun _definitely_ intended.)

Since this whole topic seems to revolve around the Abrahamic religions, and more specifically their God, I'll start off with that. Can you explain the creation of the universe? Our best theory right now is that the entire universe was compressed into something the size of the point of a pen by the four great forces in our universe. One of those forces somehow broke loose, quickly followed by the other three, and then the Universe expanded (and is continuously expanding), known as the Big Bang. Even if this was the case (which we still can't explain - to be clear, I mean the forces breaking loose, not the big bang itself, there is evidence of that), where did the forces come from? Where did matter come from? Until you can explain that, the best theory that we can slap onto it is that a god did it. If you deny it, it is your job as followers of science to prove it wrong. Everything is right until proven wrong.

Religion in and of itself, though, is a completely different matter. Its purpose is a product of social evolution - societies that believed in religion survived and lasted longer (due to morales), and "natural selection" takes its course. Since that time, our species has always latched on to some religion, on a societal scale, as it provides guidance in difficult decisions and gives a reason to do the right thing, even if it hurts you. It was important in early civilization, and it will be important again when turbulent times hit, and the idea of murdering your neighbor for a more comfortable life seems like a pretty good idea.

I was gonna say something else, but I lost my train of thought.

EDIT: Also, this.



			
				monkat said:
			
		

> Anyway, there must be a god, proof:
> 
> 
> Spoiler


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## fairlyevenparents (Sep 12, 2010)

God is real; i've seen him on tv promoting his book(s).


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## GreatCrippler (Sep 12, 2010)

zuriel102 said:
			
		

> God is real; i've seen him on tv promoting his book(s).



Rush Limbaugh is not god. >.>


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> I personally don't care about religion, but for the sake of debate, I'm going to play the devil's advocate (pun _definitely_ intended.)
> 
> Since this whole topic seems to revolve around the Abrahamic religions, and more specifically their God, I'll start off with that. Can you explain the creation of the universe? Our best theory right now is that the entire universe was compressed into something the size of the point of a pen by the four great forces in our universe. One of those forces somehow broke loose, quickly followed by the other three, and then the Universe expanded (and is continuously expanding), known as the Big Bang. Even if this was the case (which we still can't explain - to be clear, I mean the forces breaking loose, not the big bang itself, there is evidence of that), where did the forces come from? Where did matter come from? Until you can explain that, the best theory that we can slap onto it is that a god did it. If you deny it, it is your job as followers of science to prove it wrong. Everything is right until proven wrong.


The big bang theory does explain the creation of matter. There are things that we don't know but there is no reason to replace "I don't know" with "God did it". Nothing is right until proven right. It is not the job of the followers of science to disprove anything that has no evidence to back it up.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

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Prove it.


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## monkat (Sep 12, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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Do you understand the scientific method at all? Let's ignore religion here, and use a different example.

I say if you put a packet of tea leaves in water, diffusion will cause the tea's "essence" to leak into the water.

You say it sounds reasonable.

Fifty years down the road, we find that it's because a magical fairy or something did it.

The point is, we take the best shot we have until it's proven wrong, or a more logical theory is presented.


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## GreatCrippler (Sep 12, 2010)

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Oh, I will... it will take me a few years... When he dies of a heart attack... Proof!


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

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We don't make baseless assertions when using the scientific method. If I were using the scientific method I wouldn't say "that sounds reasonable", I would test your hypothesis. It is not logical to take something as truth just because you don't have a better answer. I also have an invisible dragon that lives in my brain and feasts upon my soul. Can you prove that wrong? If you can't then it must be true until you can disprove it.


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## monkat (Sep 12, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Can you prove that wrong? If you can't then it must be true until you can disprove it.



So it's okay to say we're not allowed to say "You can't prove it wrong!", but it's acceptable for you to say "You can't prove it right!"?

Also - a hypothesis on a subject with no research IS a baseless assertion - we have no information, so the hypothesis is that God did it. It's a perfectly logical situation, providing it exists, fits in with existing theories, etc., so it is now the leading theory on the subject.


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

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The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. If I have no proof of the invisible dragon then you have no reason to believe in it. A hypothesis is not a theory. If you make a hypothesis and have no evidence supporting it or disproving it then it does not become a theory. You don't just stop at making an unfalsifiable assertion. The flying spaghetti monster is just as likely to have done it. It is now the leading theory on the subject.


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## monkat (Sep 12, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> The flying spaghetti monster is just as likely to have done it. It is now the leading theory on the subject.



I agree 100%.


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## lolzed (Sep 12, 2010)

How wrong is this...
The last debate says evolution was how we came about,so most likely there is no God(according to results)
Also,un-capitalize God,you can't put "a" if it's capitalized.Unless it's the God of Israel,then all other religions shouldn't be here...

Anyways,I don't wanna debate,nothing will happen anyway,same thing,this debate never ends.

oh and one last thing


			
				OSW said:
			
		

> Why do you believe things that could easily have been written by maniacs, or as stories of fiction?


Well,the books were found in different places,and different authors,yet they are all similar(Mat. Mark Luke and John for example.)


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## Tanas (Sep 12, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

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Science has proven wrong the "god did it" excuse time after time, which asks the question, how many more times has the ignorance of the "god did it" excuse going to have to be proved wrong before the religious actually decide to take their heads from out of their arses?


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

lolzed said:
			
		

> Also,un-capitalize God,you can't put "a" if it's capitalized.Unless it's the God of Israel,then all other religions shouldn't be here...



Why shouldn't all other religions be here if it isn't one based of the Judaic God?


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## lolzed (Sep 12, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

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http://atheism.about.com/od/doesgodexist/a...italization.htm
capitalization rule...
I say just change it to "Does a god exist",to make it correct(all other religions,including Judaic)


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

lolzed said:
			
		

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Ah I see, my apologies.  I thought you meant that only the Judaic religions should be discussed.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

nutella5600 said:
			
		

> We can however think rationally and come to the conclusion that there must be an almighty being for everything to make sense.Wat.
> 
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Plenty of people argue pragmatically. 

Take a look at God's command of the genocide of the Canaanites. Can an omnibenevolent God exist after ordering a genocide?


EDIT: Haha, forgot to hit your other point.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

RoMee said:
			
		

> PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL
> 
> If you can't than it's just all in your head
> 
> religion/god/jesus is all man made to combat man fear...nothing more


You can't see gravity, yet I'm sure most of you believe in that.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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I refuse to believe in gravity until it stops being a huge jerk.


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## aimansss95 (Sep 12, 2010)

This thread is pointless and just ripping the good bond between the members.
It's people's right to believe in something and it's not somebody's right to criticize it.
it's up to us in what we believe and we don't need to mock others who doesn't agree with us.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

aimansss95 said:
			
		

> This thread is pointless and just ripping the good bond between the members.
> It's people's right to believe in something and it's not somebody's right to criticize it.
> it's up to us in what we believe and we don't need to mock others who doesn't agree with us.


In a *debate* People have every right to criticise the opposing side.


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## aimansss95 (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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well this is really a sensitive issues and should be left as it is


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

aimansss95 said:
			
		

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People posting here agree to comply to debate conditions, if your sensitive about your belief, you shouldn't go to this thread, simple.


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## naglaro00 (Sep 12, 2010)

"God created everything", they say
Who knows? Maybe God is now just a rock drifting in space.

Also, I hate people who treat God as a genie. "OMG GOD PLS MAKE MAH CROPS GROW EVEN THOUGH I AINT TENDING THEM COZ I WANT U TO TEND FOR ME"


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

naglaro00 said:
			
		

> "God created everything", they say
> Who knows? Maybe God is now just a rock drifting in space.
> 
> Also, I hate people who treat God as a genie. "OMG GOD PLS MAKE MAH CROPS GROW EVEN THOUGH I AINT TENDING THEM COZ I WANT U TO TEND FOR ME"


I've never met any religious person who thinks that god will do the work for them.


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## naglaro00 (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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There're plenty here in my country


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## OSW (Sep 12, 2010)

ether2802 said:
			
		

> 1. there's a GOD
> 2. HE has nothing to do with religion(s)
> 3. GOD does not want us to be worshiping him, he just want us to apreciated us each other (no matter what)
> 4. HE loves you even if you don't believe in him, otherwise you wouldn't exist, simple.
> ...



lmao *flys away*


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## Infinite Zero (Sep 12, 2010)

naglaro00 said:
			
		

> "God created everything", they say
> Who knows? Maybe God is now just a rock drifting in space.
> 
> Also, I hate people who treat God as a genie. "OMG GOD PLS MAKE MAH CROPS GROW EVEN THOUGH I AINT TENDING THEM COZ I WANT U TO TEND FOR ME"
> ...


It's a debate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 And as a Christian, I will defend my faith no matter what though of course, the secular side always has the advantage and although I may not be logically intelligent and have the best reasoning/debate skills as the older people here are


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## Depravo (Sep 12, 2010)

Wow, this thread is still open? I can't help thinking it may have turned out different if poopyhead were still around.

Only joking, Nate.


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## Tanas (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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So you have never met a religious person who has prayed then?


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## Depravo (Sep 12, 2010)

Tanas said:
			
		

> So you have never met a religious person who has *preyed* then?


You mean like a Catholic priest?


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## Tanas (Sep 12, 2010)

Depravo said:
			
		

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Catholic priest do pray... they pray for little boys and the unusual thing is that their prayers appear to get answered..


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## Deleted User (Sep 12, 2010)

Tanas said:
			
		

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Ugh. That was horrible. In the news for ages. But the priests got stuck in prison; that's a good thing, right?


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## Infinite Zero (Sep 12, 2010)

Depravo said:
			
		

> Wow, this thread is still open? I can't help thinking it may have turned out different if poopyhead were still around.
> 
> Only joking, Nate.


Pft. He'd be only bashing theists and even cursing them.


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## Deleted User (Sep 12, 2010)

The Debate Plenary is good to go


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## ether2802 (Sep 12, 2010)

if GOD doesn't exist, how do you explain LIFE exist...?? not evolution, life itself, there's plenty of things without life (rocks, water, fire, steel, etc etc etc)...!!


and even things without life, might believe in GOD..!!


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

ether2802 said:
			
		

> if GOD doesn't exist, how do you explain LIFE exist...?? not evolution, life itself, there's plenty of things without life (rocks, water, fire, steel, etc etc etc)...!!
> 
> 
> and even things without life, might believe in GOD..!!



I explain it as a very significant coincidence that had astronomical affects on the universe.

If God does exist, how do you explain all the evil in the world?


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

ether2802 said:
			
		

> if GOD doesn't exist, how do you explain LIFE exist...?? not evolution, life itself, there's plenty of things without life (rocks, water, fire, steel, etc etc etc)...!!There's plenty of theories out there describing how life came about. God isn't in one of them.
> 
> Atoms aren't alive, therefore things like rocks, fire, and steel, aren't alive. Life came about, theoretically, through a single-celled organism. Most likely a prokaryote.
> 
> ...


You need a conscious mind to believe in anything.


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## djleviticus (Sep 12, 2010)

Jesus is Lord, I am a born again Christian and believe me God is very real.


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## PeregrinFig (Sep 12, 2010)

I was raised as a Lutheran Christian since I was very young, but as I've gotten older my logical and more analytical way of thinking sort of took over, making things like evolution make sense. Personally I believe in evolution regardless of whether or not there's a God, but that's a whole different debate. I really don't call myself a Christian, but at the same time I definitely wouldn't say I'm an atheist either. Really, sure, no one's seen God, but at the same time, no one is billions of years old and has seen the dawn of the planet or life. I personally believe there is no way I am ever going to be 100% certain that there is or isn't a God out there, so my philosophy is, to each his own. It's of no concern to me whether someone believes in God or not, and they should just be allowed to continue believing what they believe.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

You: 





			
				djleviticus said:
			
		

> Jesus is Lord, I am a born again Christian and believe me God is very real.



GBAtemp Trolls:


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## Infinite Zero (Sep 12, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> I explain it as a very significant coincidence that had astronomical affects on the universe.
> 
> If God does exist, how do you explain all the evil in the world?


Evil is the absence of good. God didn't create evil, the fallen angel did. Lucifer.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

Infinite Zero said:
			
		

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Evil is subjective. 

God, who has the power to begin all things, know all things, and end all things, created Lucifer. With all that power and knowledge, comes blame. God knew what Lucifer would do. Therefore, God created evil.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

Infinite Zero said:
			
		

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## Blueicm (Sep 12, 2010)

I don't care if there is or isn't a god... If there is a god he probably doesn't care about our own existence. If there isn't that explains the lack of evidence. Ultimately no one can prove there is or isn't a all-powerful being who watches people all day. If I do ever meet god he can kiss my...(edited for blasphemy against all powerful entities).   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I personally believe in evolution and I think that's the way it will stay.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 12, 2010)

Blueicm said:
			
		

> I don't care if there is or isn't a god... If there is a god he probably doesn't care about our own existence. If there isn't that explains the lack *of evidence*. Ultimately no one can prove there is or isn't a all-powerful being who watches people all day. If I do ever meet god he *c*a*n* kiss my...(edited for blasphemy against all powerful entities).
> 
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Sorry, I had to fix it. It was just killing me.


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## Blueicm (Sep 12, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Sorry, I had to fix it. It was just killing me.



Lol that's cool


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

The "If there's good, why is there evil?" argument has been answered many times, the simplest answer being is that as long as humans have free will there will be evil. There's many more arguments though, aside from that one; google is your friend.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> The "If there's good, why is there evil?" argument has been answered many times, the simplest answer being is that as long as humans have free will there will be evil. There's many more arguments though, aside from that one; google is your friend.


But there is no such thing as free will. Free will implies that God doesn't know what you're going to do next, yet it does. Also, saying that humans are evil by nature, then stating that we are an omnibenevolent god's children is contradictory. If we are in fact God's children, we are born in a way that Locke would describe, we are born in a _tabula rasa_, or a blank slate.

God allowing evil at all is contradictory.


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## DeadLocked (Sep 12, 2010)

Depravo said:
			
		

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I see what you did there. Noice.


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## Deleted User (Sep 12, 2010)

Noice? Noice? That's the last thing that thing was.


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## Depravo (Sep 12, 2010)

DeadLocked said:
			
		

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Related thing -

http://cdn1.timminchin.com/wp-content/uplo...e_Pope_Song.mp3


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## Shinigami357 (Sep 12, 2010)

i reckon people are still on the fence whether or not "real" is real or imaginary. frankly, the question of God's validity is not about evil, or free will, it's about the "so what?" thing. people can believe or not believe in God, that is their choice completely, and to some people, all that really matters is that a person is completely at peace with himself whether he believes there is a God or not.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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Just because god knows what we're going to do, doesn't mean he made us do it. It's completely free will. And no, we're not born evil, we're born given the right to be evil or good.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> Just because god knows what we're going to do, doesn't mean he made us do it. It's completely free will. And no, we're not born evil, we're born given the right to be evil or good.



But again, right and wrong or evil and good is subjective.  What's good in one religion is bad in another, what's good in secular society is bad in religion, what's good in one culture is bad in another and so on.  If you left a child with no education on the subject in the forest and came back when he was older (if he sruvived obviously lol) would he know right from wrong and good from evil, or would he just know survival instinct?


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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He made us knowing that we were going to do it. He is responsible for everything we do.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

TrolleyDave said:
			
		

> But again, right and wrong or evil and good is subjective.  What's good in one religion is bad in another, what's good in secular society is bad in religion, what's good in one culture is bad in another and so on.  If you left a child with no education on the subject in the forest and came back when he was older (if he sruvived obviously lol) would he know right from wrong and good from evil, or would he just know survival instinct?
> Which is why there are books to distinct from right or wrong.
> 
> 
> ...


Your right, but does it change the fact that we have a choice to be good or evil? And may I add that you said that in a way suggesting that god is in fact real, sorry, couldn't resist pointing that out.


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## ether2802 (Sep 12, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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and yet no proof of that either, uh...?? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




and I said might, still, we can only think or believe on what we have heard, seen or learned, if someone comes and say out loud that GOD is waiting for us at the sun and the planet is gettin' closer and closer to the sun, with the help of a few good people of the science and a TV show, everyone would believe it, but there's always always always always always always, someone who is going to spend all of his effort in making it look like a lie, am I right..?? so go and enjoy your free will, believe in GOD, or not, HE will love you no matter what, and I will help you hack your Wii......no matter what...!!


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

Yeah, but God allowed it. If I claim to be omnibenevolent, allow evil to be done, and still claim to be omnibenevolent, I am just a liar.

God did create evil. Evil is in God's "perfect" image.


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## ether2802 (Sep 12, 2010)

Epicurus said:
			
		

> Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
> Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
> Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


GOD already fought against evil, he's not going to prevent evil cause now is our turn to fight it, are you always gonna be dependent of your parents, there's some day in life where you are supoused to live by your own, and create your own life, and this happens in the entire animal kingdom...!!


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## injected11 (Sep 12, 2010)

ether2802 said:
			
		

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But you're claiming dependance on a god for guidance and deliverance to a higher place, aren't you?


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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But what about the people who'd figured it out a long time before those books?  Also, who's to say that the writer of those particular books isn't the one who got it wrong?  It could be Taoism, Buddism, Sikhism, Native American religion or even one of the many now extinct polytheist religions.  They promoted similar ideals, just worshipped different entities.  How can you say that one prophets/philosophers book is the truth when there are so many out there claiming to be said truth.


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## Magmorph (Sep 12, 2010)

ether2802 said:
			
		

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How could God possibly lose a fight or even be involved in one? God wouldn't have to fight anything he could change anything with no effort.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> Yeah, but God allowed it. If I claim to be omnibenevolent, allow evil to be done, and still claim to be omnibenevolent, I am just a liar.
> 
> God did create evil. Evil is in God's "perfect" image.
> No, god supposedly created us in his image, also giving us free will, now does that mean that we're going to use the free will correctly? Not necessarily. Humans were purposely made with flaws, if god didn't create us with flaws, it would be the same as giving us no free will, thus making us angels, not humans.
> ...


I don't really understand what your trying to say in the beginning of your post so I'm not replying to that part. But what you believe in depends alot on what sort of environment you live in, but as most religions bring out the most basic rules. (e.g. no murder, lying etc)n By the time your 8-15 you should be able to distinct between good and bad at least on the most basic grounds, then you learn about other religions and if your interested in a particular religion you continue to learn more about it and either convert or stay as you are.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> No, god supposedly created us in his image, also giving us free will, now does that mean that we're going to use the free will correctly? Not necessarily. Humans were purposely made with flaws, if god didn't create us with flaws, it would be the same as giving us no free will, thus making us angels, not humans.


Anything God makes is perfect, for God is perfect. God claims to be omnibenevolent, yet allows evil, making God a liar. 

If we are flawed then God's image is flawed, because we should be perfect if we came from a perfect being. If people are not good, and we are in God's image, the evil is included in God's image. 

That doesn't make any sense. What is the difference between an angel and a human? Both are supposedly flawed, both are God's slaves, and both have free will (you said it yourself with Lucifer). The only difference is that yet again we aren't able to see the "divine."


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 12, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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I said nothing about lucifier, and frankly I'm not sure what that is. An angel can do no bad and was specifically made to do god's bidding. Also, considering god can create an perfect being, as he is perfect, he can also create an imperfect being. Us, we are imperfect beings. God can do anything, that includes creating an imperfect being. As said before, evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat.


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## Thoob (Sep 12, 2010)

Don't you just love it when the religious people argue about _angels_?


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## Warrior522 (Sep 12, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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Have you ever read Genesis? It clearly states that our flaws are a result of our rebellion against God.


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## TrolleyDave (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> I don't really understand what your trying to say in the beginning of your post so I'm not replying to that part. But what you believe in depends alot on what sort of environment you live in, but as most religions bring out the most basic rules. (e.g. no murder, lying etc)n By the time your 8-15 you should be able to distinct between good and bad at least on the most basic grounds, then you learn about other religions and if your interested in a particular religion you continue to learn more about it and either convert or stay as you are.



What I mean is how did people distinguish right from wrong before the books and before the prophets/gurus of whichever religion you choose?  Are you saying that there wasn't a single person who could tell right or wrong before whichever prophet/guru you follow decided to start teaching his philosophies?

Also, what was right back when the books were written might not be right now.  The Qu'ran advocates slavery (spoils of war), as does the Bible to some extent, yet we know now that slavery is unjust.  So are the holy books really that good at guiding our morals?  As I said earlier, good and bad is subjective according to culture and time.  If religion advocates slavery and man has come to the realisation that it's wrong does that mean that man is smarter and more compassionate than a divine being or a prophet?  Or does it simply prove that a human wrote the holy books, using religious fears to encourage his vision of a perfect society?

edit : Sorry, forgot one thing!  As to changing religions, doesn't each religion preach that it is the only way to redemption and a happy afterlife?  Islam and Buddhism being slightly different obviously as Islam teaches that as long as you believe in the one true God (Judaic) then you will be saved on the day of judgement and Buddhism is just more complicated than the usual Heaven/Hell scenario.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 12, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> I said nothing about lucifier, and frankly I'm not sure what that is. An angel can do no bad and was specifically made to do god's bidding. Also, considering god can create an perfect being, as he is perfect, he can also create an imperfect being. Us, we are imperfect beings. God can do anything, that includes creating an imperfect being. As said before, evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat.Lucifer is God's "fallen angel," the devil.
> 
> Weren't we as well? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we're here for, otherwise we wouldn't even have religion. Main difference between humans and "angels": angels don't have a choice to believe in God because they have proof. However, they can rebel. It's happened before, assuming the holy books aren't story books.
> 
> ...


It's incredibly easy to argue that rebellion doesn't bring imperfection to a perfect entity. Whatever that entity does is perfect. If this applies to God, then it applies to us as well. God DID command the genocide of the Canaanites, you know. Numbers, 33:50-52


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## omatic (Sep 12, 2010)

There IS a god, and it's Kojima. Miller said so.

Video proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThutNUSMDfY

===

Seriously though, I don't think we have enough knowledge compiled to know how the universe truly works, and it'd be a little arrogant to try and claim that as a primitive life-form whose best-case natural lifespan is almost nothing relative to the age of the universe, let alone our own star, that we know how it all works.


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## OSW (Sep 13, 2010)

ether2802 said:
			
		

> if GOD doesn't exist, how do you explain LIFE exist...??



So how does "GOD" exist?

If you're prepared to take a leap of faith saying that God "just exists", you could easily take the same leap in saying that the Universe/Life "just exists".

Many things are unexplainable or odd in our world. Sometimes you just have to accept them because there is no explanation. You don't have to pull some crap out about "God".

p.s. I REALLY hate it when religious people don't at least try to think for themselves, but instead simply quote passages from the bible.


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## Shinigami357 (Sep 13, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> I said nothing about lucifier, and frankly I'm not sure what that is. An angel can do no bad and was specifically made to do god's bidding. Also, considering god can create an perfect being, as he is perfect, he can also create an imperfect being. Us, we are imperfect beings. God can do anything, that includes creating an imperfect being. *As said before, evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat.*



like, srsly??? if so then what is good? surely not everything that God created, since looking at humans, there are some bad ones among the mix. you can't even say that good is the absence of good, coz then we'd be in a cycle of frankly stupid argumentation. and in any cae, what is the whole point of this evil-good thing? that evil exists does not prove either existence or absence of God.


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## em2241992 (Sep 13, 2010)

I honestly do not know if God exists, but if God did exist, then why are we here?(nihilism) What is our purpose for being here, simple amusement? If God created us he must have created us for a purpose. So far science explains everything about our existence, such as the environment is stable to suit us, we have all the elements to make human DNA which is the base of our existence.
As we live our life, we grow and die, and for what? At least in the scientific explanation, we came into existence by chance and conditions providing. Because of this we technically have no true purpose, and the only reason we know we exist is we developed a conscience, we recognize that we exist. If we didn't then none of this would even be questioned or explored. The universe is full observed because of the way we perceive it(anthropic principle). It is also possible that only I exist and everything else is nothing more than my mind at work(solipsism). 
Also I read in earlier posts about God preventing evil. What is evil, it is a concept based on certain morals laid down by humans and religious concepts. But who wrote that religious context, prove it was God. Humans deem things evil, but it is all based on morals. All things good and evil are definition based on human definition and characteristics. 
With all of these possibilities and many more which I don't know, how can we possibly prove if a deity or deities exist?


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## Blood Fetish (Sep 13, 2010)

em2241992 said:
			
		

> With all of these possibilities and many more which I don't know, how can we possibly prove if a deity or deities exist?


It is the burden of those proclaiming there is a "god" to provide proof, not the other way around. If none can be provided then it is as valid as saying I am [your diety] and you being forced to accept that.


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## Zetta_x (Sep 13, 2010)

Before I continue, I wanted to post that we are assuming there is a god for if there is not a god, then my posts below would not be relevant. 

----


My problem with religion is that it attempt to define good and bad. While we should have a strong moral foundation on what is good and bad, it feels corrupt when something else is making the decisions.

Another reason why I don't follow religion is because it can really alter someone at the personality level. I have seen some people who feel above others because they are hardcore religion vs an Atheist. Like I always say, it takes more faith to not believe in religion especially when you have family members who do.

Another assumption that must be taken with any ideology that follows a god is that god must be real, for if it is not, what is the foundation of the principles? While I have no problem in believing a god, but to abuse it's image to make people follow a certain religion is ridicule.

Some other small things, like what is the origin of every religion? I feel in order to study a religion, I must have to either: A) Read a book or some type of material or B) get lectured by someone who supposedly knows the religion. If religion is truly associated with an omnipotent transcendental being, why is it we have to study by ways that do not originate back to the start of the religion (books, communications, English...)

What is the probability of a religion today being as accurate as the same religion thousands of years ago? If religion does indeed associate with an almighty perfect transcendental being, then consistencies about a religion shouldn't happen because if they do, we form new breeds of new religions

Is religion a form of control?  Self explanatory. Things like Hell and Heaven have extremely graphic images.

Why do most religions that idolize a god always make the god almost human like as gender and body as if it was walking on earth. Study material of religious activities normally have a humanistic point of view as if it were derived from a human. That being said, all religious activities take place on Earth. This would be consistent with a perspective that thought Earth was the only place in existence which is coincidentally around the same time as most religions originated. We must have the Earth versions of every religion.

If we found intelligent lifeforms outside Earth, what is the probability that they believe in the same religions as we do? For if they don't, then who is right if we assumed one of us were right.

How can a place that is perfect exist? Perfection to some extent is always in relation to some variable. These variables can be defined by opinions. Opinions can differ from person to person. So perfection in the form of a transcendental being or place would not have an intersection to a specific object.

It takes a lot of money and willpower to study religion. Unfortunately in order to disprove of a religion you need to know some things about it unless you are ignorant. With that being said, religion in general actively consumes resources regardless if you believe it or not. The best approach to avoid these resources would be to ignore religion in general and not approve it or disapprove it.

I have so much more I can say especially about specific religions, but this is why I disapprove religion in general.


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## VmprHntrD (Sep 13, 2010)

Can't say there is or isn't.  I'm not arrogant or mind numbingly blind enough to think solidly there is or isn't as there's no proof solidly either way.


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## lolzed (Sep 13, 2010)

On:God created evil(sin),meaning He is evil,that is wrong.
God created angels,and man,but with free will.He wanted us to love Him with our choice.
God placed the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil,to test Adam.He only had one restriction in the Garden after all,to not eat it.If he ate it,it means he did the original sin.He could choose not to eat it,with all the other goodies in the Garden,but he still chose to eat it.
Did God allow evil?The answer is "He didn't allow it NOT to exist",that's free will.

God created us in His own image...
Indeed He did,physically.He also created us in a Tri format too~
God:Father,Son,HolySpirit
Man:Body,Soul,Spirit
He also made us with some of His attributes.A common arguement if God created us perfectly,is why aren't we omnipotent,present,and -scient.

Any more questions?I'll try to answer them


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## zeromac (Sep 13, 2010)

Here is my view on this whole God matter

God is real and he isn't at the same time.
God is real in the sense that God is the hope that mankind believes in
God isnt real in the sense that he is not a physical being nor can you see or touch him

So to sum it all up, God is the hope that there is some higher power controlling your being. It's just that mankind has given a physical form to god (ie. body face white beard..)
Happy now?


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## em2241992 (Sep 13, 2010)

Vampire Hunter D said:
			
		

> Can't say there is or isn't.  I'm not arrogant or mind numbingly blind enough to think solidly there is or isn't as there's no proof solidly either way.


I agree with this. I want God to exist, it would give me hope and reason for being here, but if he doesn't than so be it. I have no concrete proof of God's existence, and I am pretty sure no one else really does. All we can do is wait and find out when we die, will we go to an after life, a heaven or hell, or nothing. We don't know, how can we? Because of a book that is proclaimed to be written by God, wheres proof that it was not written by other so called profits that wanted attention and power


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> Lucifer is God's "fallen angel," the devil.
> 
> Weren't we as well? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we're here for, otherwise we wouldn't even have religion. Main difference between humans and "angels": angels don't have a choice to believe in God because they have proof. However, they can rebel. It's happened before, assuming the holy books aren't story books.
> 
> ...


Islam gives no gender to god. They address him as he/him because saying it, sounds disrespectful. There is also no picture him of him. Type in allah into google images and you only get the arabic writing of allah, no pictures of god.

OK, when you say a place that's perfect, I assume your referring to heaven. Well heaven is a place where you want something you get it and you have a feeling of being content. Sounds perfect to me.


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## em2241992 (Sep 13, 2010)

Based on every counter argument you are bringing, you are indirectly making the claim that Islam is the truth to religion. I fail to see how that is even remotely true, considering it has the same evidence as every other religion, nothing tangible other than a piece of writing that cannot be proven. Up until now, only scientific claims have been proven, and even some of those have not been proven. The Qur'an,  the Bible and any other holy literature, may have some "answer," that explains our reason for living, and how we got here, but they hold no decisive evidence to prove it. Until then it is a subjective piece of evidence and provides no true answer.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

So instead of replying to the argument at hand, you start blabbering about how religion is indefinitely wrong and using the Qur'an as a reference is wrong.


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## em2241992 (Sep 13, 2010)

Not exactly. I am putting holes in your arguement, showing that you cannot be certain on your claims. I am not saying that religion is wrong or that the Qur'an is wrong, I am saying that there is no solid evidence to back either of them up, therefore they have no real foundation for claims.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

em2241992 said:
			
		

> Not exactly. I am putting holes in your arguement, showing that you cannot be certain on your claims. I am not saying that religion is wrong or that the Qur'an is wrong, I am saying that there is no solid evidence to back either of them up, therefore they have no real foundation for claims.


You said that most religions idolise a god as a human figure I replied by saying the Qur'an does not do that.
You said, how can a perfect place exist? I showed you how it can exist. That has nothing to do with how reliable the Qur'an is. And thus, you put no holes in my argument.


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## em2241992 (Sep 13, 2010)

I never humanized God, I said God is an existence, referring to God as a "he" is just my way of doing so, for lack of a better choice of words. I never questioned a perfect place at all. I know it is remotely possible that a perfect place can exist, just as of right now it does not. I doubt the Qur'an since is has no real proof other than writing, which has to proof of the source.


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## Magmorph (Sep 13, 2010)

A perfect place cannot exist because it is subjective. No two people have the same idea of perfect.


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## Demonstryde (Sep 13, 2010)

we are just one ball of dust floating through an expanding vastness of emptiness. there are other planets harboring life.. this is most probable taking in the amount of galaxies in our universe(3,000 visible with old technologies) with roughly 100 billion individual stars surrounding those...what are the chances that just a few of those earth like planets orbiting just a few of those stars harbor some sort of intelligent life.. now lets say god made them all.. what is the probability that he is able to listen to everyone's needs.. for this fact religion seems greedy , like if someone were to say" i asked god and he told me blah blah blah.. ect." no its prob just you talking to yourself in your head or making your own decisions subconsciously .... God is a word for something we know absolutely nothing about.. we are so infinitely small that the probability that god created us is just as likely that we are growing inside of a quark particle inside of an atom growing on his fingernail and he created us but knows not of our complex problems as much as an ant realizes our existence.....nuff said. 

To all religious peeps.. don't hate me for what i say.. as i can only speculate on the things i can observe, but who really knows?

here is what i like to think about.. 
the elements that make up your body and the surrounding environment all came for the hearts of exploding stars.... after eons they form into dna via your parents.. and make your brain which is able to look back to the expanding universe and acknowledge what it was before it was human...


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> A perfect place cannot exist because it is subjective. No two people have the same idea of perfect.
> In heaven, as I said before, you get what you want, when you want. You can have anything in heaven. So yeah, heaven is a perfect place.
> 
> 
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Where did the exploding star come from? God is all knowing, he sees, and knows everything. Including all of our needs.


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## mightymuffy (Sep 13, 2010)

We're either some old experiment long forgotten by a higher/alien species, or 'God' really exists..... but nobody can be sure of that.... 
Religion though.... if there really is a God I'm telling you now the Christians aren't the right ones. Or the Muslims, or any other religion imo...... 'God' has many different faces for the many different cultures, and to find a devout christian slagging off a devout muslim is ridiculous, and I'm sure he wouldn't condone burning 'misguided witchcraft' users at the stake, nor jumping into a room full of jews or christians with a bomb strapped round your waist. Religion is one of the biggest evils of this world make no mistake!


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## Tanas (Sep 13, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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Where did your god come from? and if God is all knowing and he sees and knows everything including our needs, why does he just turn a blind eye to them all?


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

mightymuffy said:
			
		

> We're either some old experiment long forgotten by a higher/alien species, or 'God' really exists..... but nobody can be sure of that....
> Religion though.... if there really is a God I'm telling you now the Christians aren't the right ones. Or the Muslims, or any other religion imo...... 'God' has many different faces for the many different cultures, and to find a devout christian slagging off a devout muslim is ridiculous, and I'm sure he wouldn't condone burning 'misguided witchcraft' users at the stake, nor jumping into a room full of jews or christians with a bomb strapped round your waist. Religion is one of the biggest evils of this world make no mistake!


Your one of those people who stereotype all muslims as terrosists, yeah, don't like people like you. Politicians are also one the biggest evils in this world, don't see anyone trying to get rid of them.


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## NeSchn (Sep 13, 2010)

Oh boy, heres a controversial subject.

Yes, I believe there is some sort of higher power. Do I think we need to argue/debate about it? No, just believe what you want and move on with your life.


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## Tanas (Sep 13, 2010)

@BobTheJoeBob, did my who made your god question frighten you because like a typical Christian you  avoided answering the question.

You cant simply try and discredit the the big bang theory by asking a question like where did the exploding star come from that caused it , when you yourself like all other Christians cant or are unwilling to answer the question, where did your god come from, so I'll ask it again... Who made your god?


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## Blood Fetish (Sep 13, 2010)

The Christian belief is that no one made "god", rather he has always existed. If you attempt to argue that something has to start at some point they will simply say that god can do whatever he wants.


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## Zetta_x (Sep 13, 2010)

As I previously said, you can't disapprove from something unless you know a little about it. It's easier to just blindly approve something. Religion in general is so obtrusive in our everyday surroundings I don't know one person over the age of 18 who has not heard of a religion. Which makes them have this controversial debate whether to approve of it or disapprove of it. I argue that religion in general is so obtrusive to anyone's life because approving or disapproving religion causes so much unneeded stress and wasted resources.


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## Deleted User (Sep 13, 2010)

Religion is why I quit porn.


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## Law (Sep 13, 2010)

jet™ said:
			
		

> Religion is why I quit porn.



It doesn't look like it did a very good job, considering your other thread.


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## Tanas (Sep 13, 2010)

Blood Fetish said:
			
		

> The Christian belief is that no one made "god", rather he has always existed. If you attempt to argue that something has to start at some point they will simply say that god can do whatever he wants.


Exactly, and that just goes to  show that god is just a made up fairy tale were reasoning goes out the window and anything goes.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 13, 2010)

Law said:
			
		

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My reaction in sequence:


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## Frost>>&gt (Sep 13, 2010)

em2241992 said:
			
		

> I honestly do not know if God exists, but if God did exist, then why are we here?(nihilism) What is our purpose



Think about it. imagine your God (The christian God). your all loving. there's nothing to love. you ARE love you can't even contain it. what are you going to do?


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 13, 2010)

Frost>>> said:
			
		

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So God, who needs nothing, needs people to love it? Uh.........what?

If God truly is all powerful, it wouldn't matter if God has something to love or not.


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## Frost>>&gt (Sep 13, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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What gave you the idea if your all powerful you don't need anything?


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

Tanas said:
			
		

> @BobTheJoeBob, did my who made your god question frighten you because like a typical Christian you  avoided answering the question.
> 
> You cant simply try and discredit the the big bang theory by asking a question like where did the exploding star come from that caused it , when you yourself like all other Christians cant or are unwilling to answer the question, where did your god come from, so I'll ask it again... Who made your god?


On the contrary, I believe very much in the big bang theory and I am not christian. Thought you would've realised that. And no, I didn't try to avoid your question. God had no beginning, and saying that that throws all reasoning out of the window is pretty ignorant considering nobody knows what the original "thing" was.


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## Zetta_x (Sep 13, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> In heaven, as I said before, you get what you want, when you want. You can have anything in heaven. So yeah, heaven is a perfect place.



Interesting. Lets assume this is correct. Lets also assume it is like a gathering of people who met a certain criteria for what would Heaven be alone? What if you wanted to create suffering for everyone in Heaven? If you can get when you want and what you want, this should be possible for if it is not then it is not heaven as you have mentioned (a perfect place). However, the suffering you are causing others should not be heaven for them and thus a contradiction.

Why does religion attempt to define what is good or bad?


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## Sterling (Sep 13, 2010)

Shit... Well, I don't think I'll be an active poster here. My belief/opinion is: Yes there is a God. Now I'll proceed to take stage left. I won't even take a vote since I didn't even take a defensive stand for my side. Y'all have some fun here, because since I get so vehement on this particular subject, then I shouldn't be here. Cheerio. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Fuuuck... Now I wish to debate, even though I shouldn't. :/


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

Zetta_x said:
			
		

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Look, it doesn't say in the Qur'an exactly how heaven is like. There are probably some boundaries but anybody who's sick enough and gets pleasure from other peoples suffering is probably in hell.


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## Magmorph (Sep 13, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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That's your idea of perfect. You are making the assumption that everyone has the same idea of perfect. I say that living forever and getting anything you want sounds good in theory but would be hell in reality. If you lived forever there would be no urgency or reason to accomplish anything. If you got everything you wanted there would be nothing to accomplish and no reason to live.

Also, where are you getting your idea of heaven from?


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 13, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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You're applying earthly problems to heaven. It doesn't work that way.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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The haddith. Also, you would have a feeling of being content and happy.


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## Magmorph (Sep 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

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Why doesn't it work that way?


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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Because in heaven, you feel completely content and happy, as I have said.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 13, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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It just doesn't. Since when does religion have to make sense?


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## Magmorph (Sep 13, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

> Because in heaven, you feel completely content and happy, as I have said.


That doesn't sound like a perfect place to me. If the only emotion I could feel was happiness then life would be dull and meaningless.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 13, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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OK, think of it as a permanent orgasm. Not the best way to describe it, but yeah.


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## injected11 (Sep 13, 2010)

This thread has done a fantastic job of showing me many of the reasons why no side is *ever* going to sway the other. When I try and step back from my viewpoint and just read, this thread becomes very revealing of just how large the rift is.


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## Magmorph (Sep 13, 2010)

BobTheJoeBob said:
			
		

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Accomplishing things and living through tough times gives life a purpose. Living in what you describe as heaven would not be ideal to me.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 13, 2010)

Frost>>> said:
			
		

> What gave you the idea if your all powerful you don't need anything?


Think about what you just said for a moment. 

God can do whatever it wants! God doesn't _need_ a damn thing!


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## ibis_87 (Sep 13, 2010)

If you assume there's such entity as God, you assume He is superior to your own level. Otherwise, it's not what we call God. If He is, how is one supposed to UNDERSTAND or EVALUATE His motives with human logic? That's why religion is all about believing. 

As for me, I'm pretty much convinced God exists. And believing is a very important part of my life - like the final line of defense when everything is going awfully wrong. When you are, so to say, pushed to the wall, when odds are 10 to 1 you're not gonna make it - believing is the last thing to hold to and fight back. 'cause believe me,  all other lines of defense can fall.


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## Blood Fetish (Sep 13, 2010)

ibis_87 said:
			
		

> And believing is a very important part of my life - like the final line of defense when everything is going awfully wrong.


You just summed up religion. It provides easy, comforting answers to hard questions. A lot of people desperately want to believe that people who are bad will get what's due, even if not in this life. Or that their puppy is waiting for them in puppy heaven. Etc.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 14, 2010)

ibis_87 said:
			
		

> If you assume there's such entity as God, you assume He is superior to your own level. Otherwise, it's not what we call God. If He is, how is one supposed to UNDERSTAND or EVALUATE His motives with human logic? That's why religion is all about believing.


Because God's motives are perfect, and even a rock should be able to understand God's plans. If a plan is flawed because a certain species can't understand it, then the plan itself is flawed. If a perfect plan is flawed, it is illogical to call it a perfect plan. God's plan should be able to be understood with logic.


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## Tanas (Sep 14, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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If god doesnt need a damn thing then why cant he speak for himself?


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 14, 2010)

Tanas said:
			
		

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A couple interpretations of you post:

Are you agreeing with me?
Do you expect God to speak?
You want God itself to say that it doesn't need anything?

I honestly don't know where you're going with this.


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## Tanas (Sep 14, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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No I'm not agreeing with you and yes if god is suppose to exist then yes I do expect him to speak or at least give a sign that he actually does, wouldn't you think that a smart thing for him to would be to show himself so that the none believers would become believers?  which is the what he wants is it not?


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 14, 2010)

Tanas said:
			
		

> No I'm not agreeing with you and yes if god is suppose to exist then yes I do expect him to speak or at least give a sign that he actually does, wouldn't you think that a smart thing for him to would be to show himself so that the none believers would become believers?  which is the what he wants is it not?


Based on this statement, I think you're misinterpreting my post. I'm just as doubtful as you are. Some Christians have the wrong idea about what a god is supposed to be. They say God has needs, desires, emotions, et cetera. God has nothing of the sort, for God is all-powerful, and has no need for anything.


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## Magmorph (Sep 14, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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God has no need for a universe either. There would be no reason for him to make one.


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## bnwchbammer (Sep 14, 2010)

Religion in and of itself was created out of fear.
It gives people something to fall back on.
Which at times is a good thing.
In other ways, it's terrible.
People argue this too much and end up fighting countless wars over something nobody knows about for sure.
That's why organized religion doesn't work.
Now, just because religion was created out of fear doesn't mean it's all fake.
(Though it's hard to say it's true as well)
It's hard to say whether or not God exists though.
If I think about life in general here's how it goes:
Before me I was nothing.
(That's hard for me to truly comprehend)
Right now, all I know is me.
After me there's either an afterlife of sorts or nothing.
I'd like to think there's an afterlife.
I'd also like to figure out how I couldn't have been me until now.
But if I wasn't here earlier, why does it matter that I won't be here eventually.
But it scares me so much.
Even now, I get chills typing this.
Nothingness is terrible.
That has to be the only reason I believe in a God of sorts.
I'd like to believe my family members, especially my mom, have gone somewhere.
But hell, I don't know at all.
Wish I was crazy enough to believe in reincarnation, that'd be sick.
That _would_ give me an answer to what was before and after me though.
So I guess my answer is in a realistic sense I don't really believe there's a God.
In a hopeful sense I do believe there's a God.
But that fear causes a hell of a lot of hope that there's a God.


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## Magmorph (Sep 14, 2010)

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. -Mark Twain


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## Canonbeat234 (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm not going into FULL detail about why I type God does exist. However, I will type around 2-3 paragraphs to back-up my claim.

For starters I was a Catholic before switching categories into Christain. My belief in God as when I was Catholic student didn't presuade me from my wicked ways which I was very VERY wicked. I didn't care who the hell God was since mostly in Catholic school you was mostly hearing about Jesus! The Apostle Creed is a great example about Jesus being engraved in my mindset as far as knowing HIS works. Let I said, I didn't know who God was or why did he exist. Even though my mother had bought those VHS videos about the popular Bible stories from Jesus's Birth to New Creation...that still didn't open up my eyes. I was a badass and didn't care about Jesus nor God. I can go to Church on Sundays while joining choirs singing in HIS presense while thinking of evil thoughts. No student in Catholic school wanted to be my friend which I was mostly an outcast then again why should I?! All Catholic students from what I saw are prideful, arrogant, and FUCKING back-stabbers!! They don't got your back when you're feeling depressed, heck they leave you dwelling in your own misery while they enjoy their day. That showed me how can God exist when there's so much evil in this world?!

When I got out from that mess, I went to Jr. High School aka Prison. I was depressed and suicidal which made me mostly a victim from bastards who let to bully on people's anguish. I had attempted to choke myself one time and the students were CHEERING, Laughing, and ROOTING for a helpless soul to die! A security officer prive my hands from my neck, called my mother and report that I was suicidal. To me, I didn't care...where the hell was Jesus or God when I was going through my dark times? After that episode, I talk to my father about it...he didn't help much even though he was born again. My mother kind of soothe the tension in my life. While still at that school, it taught me that my feelings expresses more than my actions. So I became happy, cheerful, positive during 7th and 8th grade. It did help since my attitude was more brighter, I hope for the best and did my best. I had one friend from there and still is his friend till this day. I went to a High School to where its droprate is 40% due to a lot of studying and exams. I passed from with an B average.

When I got inside my father's life, he showed me how this God changed his life. To me I still question how did that happened, to me it must be God since most fathers who change their lives don't even see his first son till he's like 18 or 21. My father came back to my life at the age of 13. So I only knew him about 7-9 years which given me insight how he acts and how he's related to me. Even though we don't have many similiarities, he does help me when he can. He has help me many times when I was about to get kick out from my mother's apartment TWICE. He paid my cell phone bill when I had no money and despite his mistakes. He still willing to call me his son even at this age right now 23. He calls me and tells me I'm going to become someone great.

The reason why I believe God exist is because he can anyone's life turn around completely despite if they were drug dealers, murderers, sex abusers, theives, and even God haters. I mean when I realize that HE does exist, HE started to show me the Favor, Honor, Grace, Glory, Mercy, and Power he gives to people who believes in his son, Jesus. It took me awhile and I'm not without fault here. I do sin, however I pray for forgiveness. God still around us, its how the person percoeve their belief on Him. No one has a clear, it just goes by faith.


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## user0002 (Sep 14, 2010)

I don't believe in God (I suppose this thread refers specifically to the Christian notion of god since the word has a capital G, no?), especially a personal god promoted in particular by monotheistic religions, which give their own god all sorts of conflicting characteristics and attributes. But neither do I believe in ancient Greek nor ancient Roman gods. Why should I? Why should one assume there is/are god/s that tinker with the world, tamper with people's daily lives, performs miracles etc when there's no evidence for such. Why assume that the universe would need a god in order to exist? That just adds a completely unnecessary layer of inexplicability to everything. And monotheistic religions are rip-offs of one another anyway, Christianity is a rehashed and slightly modified version of Judaism and Islam is a rehashed and slightly modified version of Christianity. 

Furthermore, if we like to think that the universe was created by something/someone and refer to this as god, then HOW do we arrive at conclusions that god has these or those specific characteristics and attributes, tells humans to do this and that like follow the 10 commandments, that there's a heaven and hell and you'll end up there if you do this or that, that you have to set up your personal lives and societies according to these or those specific rules, that god needs nothing but still requires worshipping, plus a ton of other strange things? If we like to assume that the universe was created by something/someone and if we're being honest with ourselves, then we can't really say that god is like Christianity says or Islam says. Yet entire societies were and to this day are based on a certain view of what god is like and follow the rules set by this god (or gods if polytheistic), when in fact nobody really knows anything about the supposed god(s). 

All evidence points to the fact that man created god/s in his own image. Thus, why assume god exists? The universe exists, yes, but how did it start, we don't know and may never find out.


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## ball2012003 (Sep 14, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. -Mark Twain


That makes no sense.


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## Zetta_x (Sep 14, 2010)

One thing that annoys me is that people believe that if God exist, then that means their religion is true.

Everyone who has met me knows that my opinion about religion is very harsh. Maybe I am biased about my opinions of religion given I was forced to believe it for many years straight. I make my opinions known when someone questions them. Because of that, people know I don't believe in any common religions today.

The one thing that grinds my gears is when they try making me believe that a God exists. I believe there is some object out there that parttook in the creation of the universe, and that object (whether it is a transcendental being, chain of events, or something else) is defined as God. So I believe that there is a God, but whether not God exists or not has shit to do with whether their religion is the right one.

I hate how we attempt to define God, if there is truly a God, we clearly don't have any idea what it is... I'm going to need to breathe because I am finding myself deleting half the things I am writing to prevent getting into a flame war


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 14, 2010)

ball2012003 said:
			
		

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"Dead" as in "non-existence." The universe is 13.72 billion years old, and Mark Twain only lived for a very short time (75 years). Twain was not inconvenienced because of this.


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## user0002 (Sep 14, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> ball2012003 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then Twain's mixing up definitions. To be dead means there had to be a living organism that came to an end of its biological life. 

Also, Twain's comment (I was dead -> suffered no inconvenience), that is if he really meant it and wasn't just being whimsical and witty, seems to suggest he believed that mind exists independently of matter, mind-matter dualism.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 14, 2010)

user0002 said:
			
		

> Furthermore, if we like to think that the universe was created by something/someone and refer to this as god, then HOW do we arrive at conclusions that god has these or those specific characteristics and attributes, tells humans to do this and that like follow the 10 commandments, that there's a heaven and hell and you'll end up there if you do this or that, that you have to set up your personal lives and societies according to these or those specific rules, that god needs nothing but still requires worshipping, plus a ton of other strange things? If we like to assume that the universe was created by something/someone and if we're being honest with ourselves, then we can't really say that god is like Christianity says or Islam says. Yet entire societies were and to this day are based on a certain view of what god is like and follow the rules set by this god (or gods if polytheistic), when in fact nobody really knows anything about the supposed god(s).
> 
> All evidence points to the fact that man created god/s in his own image. Thus, why assume god exists? The universe exists, yes, but how did it start, we don't know and may never find out.


God doesn't require worshipping. OK, the devil said that man will have more bad people in hell then in heaven thus meaning that man itself is bad. So that's our "purpose" or at least one purpose. God asks you to pray to show your love and belief in him. He doesn't require it.


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## Magmorph (Sep 14, 2010)

user0002 said:
			
		

> Uncle FEFL said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are taking that quote way too literally.


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## Tanas (Sep 14, 2010)

I am morally superior to god and I suspect that 100% of tempers are too...


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## CrimzonEyed (Sep 14, 2010)

If there was a god i would have assassinate him by now.
Religion only creates war and endless discussions.


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## Depravo (Sep 14, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

> The universe is 6.72 billion years old


I thought the latest calculations had the age of the Universe at around 13 billion?


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## 0ddity (Sep 15, 2010)

Depravo said:
			
		

> Uncle FEFL said:
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> 
> 
> ...



That is correct, the universe is about 13-14 billion, the earth is about 4.3 billion.


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 15, 2010)

Depravo said:
			
		

> Uncle FEFL said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude. It's TWAIN. The quote, although I'm not sure where it's from, is supposed to be meaningful. People give a word it's meaning, and in this sense, he used a connotation of "death" to mean "non-existence," since that's basically what death means, in a broad sense.


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## Rrego (Sep 15, 2010)

Well it seems that this debate has already been decided but Hell, I might as well say something. 

No I don't believe in God. I still go to church(I'm Catholic) every Sunday with my parents so I'm not completely ignorant of the believes of Christians. In the society we have today, Religion is unnecessary and slows down progress. An all-powerful, loving, knowing deity sounds ridiculous to me.
The Bible has been interpreted by many people and everyone get something different out of it. The reason I believe they do is because the Bible completely contradicts itself. It is designed like so many religions to shut up and quell the masses. (Fear God, Don't test God).It is the excuse and start of many conflicts as well. Evolution and the big bang theory to me seem to be much better explanations.

Common Arguments:
1) Why do we wear clothes then: Because we follow the trends and actions of society
2)Pascal's Gambit: I find that this suggestion really doesn't matter because I wouldn't be able to make myself believe if I wanted too. 
3)The Christian religion say to love one another: I would much rather believe in the human spirit than that of God. And many people actually do that.
etc.

I'm not saying having a religion is completely bad btw. Believing in God or other deityish things is fine if it gives you a reason to live and do good. Its just some interpretations of it promote hate (Godhatesfaqs by the great Westboro Baptist Church)

Oh shit... I got off topic.


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## Stevetry (Sep 15, 2010)

i worship a nuclear missile XD


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## OSW (Sep 15, 2010)

Canonbeat234 said:
			
		

> I'm not going into FULL detail about why I type God does exist. However, I will type around 2-3 paragraphs to back-up my claim.
> ...



Sounds to me like you just needed some emotional counseling and a supportive environment (family etc).
I don't see why God was responsible for turning your life around...

That being said, as long as you're happy, well I'm happy for you mate 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. 

I don't have prejudice against religous persons, but I do sometimes question their.. hemm.. maybe.. weakness?

IMO a lot of people are religious because they're too weak to cope with the real world... And they haven't learned that it's just as easy if not easier to be happy without religion (provided you have various other needs satisfied).

I guess the only good thing about religion is that it can gives people who have nothing, something to hold on to.


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## Tanas (Sep 15, 2010)

Apparently one of the Popes Paedophile side kicks call the  UK is a "Third World country" marked by "a new and aggressive atheism" which the Vatican said the cardinal had not intended "any kind of slight", and was referring to the UK's multicultural society.

Calling a county Third World just because of to its growing atheism and multicultural society, just goes to show how fucking  backward and bigoted the Pope and his fucking pedos actually are. I'm proud of my country's  growing so called aggressive atheism and multicultural society, so fuck the murdering Pope and all of his fucking kiddy fiddlers...


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## Deleted User (Sep 15, 2010)

The Football's Pope is coming home!


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## Zetta_x (Sep 16, 2010)

While looking for something to eat, I decided to get spaghettios. I realized that Dora the Explorer was labeled on it (a children's TV show). Then I realized, religion is like this can of spaghettios, they use the image of God to sell religion.


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## fgghjjkll (Sep 17, 2010)

Does religion exist? It's a really tough question but here is what i think:
Yes religion DOES exist. Many people have established this in the first few pages of the thread as religion is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality".
BUT, does God exist?

There are many for and against in this topic.
1. Muslims believe that the Quran fell out of the sky. Uhh.. wtf?
2. Christians believe that the Bible was written by many people from different areas but what their story is in some way or another, the same and this has been proven.. I think.. (Uhh.. Flame me if you want, but a friend told me this...)
3. God is an almighty being. He supposedly created this world. We are very close to Global Warming. Why has he not done anything to fix it up? Does he not care anymore? Why do people still follow him? Put their faith in him? If you look back in time, he probably ditched us a long time ago.
The two ice ages. The wipeout of dinosaurs. The destruction of Pompeii.
and..
4. There are more believable theories than many religion out there.
Scientology? wtf? How could aliens fly a Boeing 747 in space? Even the Big Bang theory has more evidence to support this.


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## Overlord Nadrian (Sep 19, 2010)

Late but whatever, the OP says this is open forever so I thought I might as well give my 2 cents.

If there would be such a thing as a God, who is omnipotent (which literally translates to being capable of doing everything), then why can't he/she/it push an immovable object?

That is all.


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## Tanas (Sep 19, 2010)

Overlord Nadrian said:
			
		

> Late but whatever, the OP says this is open forever so I thought I might as well give my 2 cents.
> 
> If there would be such a thing as a God, who is omnipotent (which literally translates to being capable of doing everything), then why can't he/she/it push an immovable object?
> 
> That is all.


My arsehole is more omnipotent than he/she/it, because at least my arsehole can push out a turd.


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## Thoob (Sep 19, 2010)

Tanas said:
			
		

> Overlord Nadrian said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...








 I actually lol'd!


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## L-Lawliet (Sep 19, 2010)

If God was real, there would not have been 9/11


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## Blood Fetish (Sep 19, 2010)

L-Lawliet said:
			
		

> If God was real, there would not have been 9/11


Works in mysterious ways; who are you to presume you could understand God's plan; etc.


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## Bunie (Sep 19, 2010)

Anyone who reads the bible with logic in mind knows that It's a fictional book written to make idiots feel better during hard times,

the god written about in it is a horrible person who deserves to be done away with.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I am of course not stupid enough to beleive in such. Children beleive in santa because they are told to.


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## Terminator02 (Sep 19, 2010)

y is this thread still open? pointless topic


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## Overlord Nadrian (Sep 20, 2010)

So you think debates are pointless? I don't get it.


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## Ossot (Sep 20, 2010)

Overlord Nadrian said:
			
		

> So you think debates are pointless? I don't get it.



I don't think he's implying debates are pointless. I think he's insinuating that faith is one of those things people don't change their mind in, regardless of stance. Especially not from some random 17 year olds paraphrasing of an AP philosophy course or a youtube video he saw of Dawkins.


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## _Chaz_ (Sep 20, 2010)

I am a teenager on the internet. I am instantly qualified to tell everyone the right way to think.


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## elmoreas (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes there is a God. The maker of Heaven and Earth. He has a son the mesiah Jesus the Christ. Trough him all things are possible. If you want proof go to science as it can give you all the false proof you want, but I have all I need in my faith. I believe and that is enough for me. If that is not enough for you then so be it. If you do not believe I still care about you and still have compassion for you regardless of your lifestyle choices and what you think of me for believing. I may disagree with you but I will not force it on you and I will not make you feel inferior for not beliveing.


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## Overlord Nadrian (Sep 20, 2010)

elmoreas, even though I disagree with your point of view on the subject, I truly respect you. Most of the religious people I see start raging whenever someone tells them they don't believe in anything/anyone but themselves, but you stay calm and look at it from a much more mature way and accept the fact that some people just don't think a 'God' can exist. Thank you for that.


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## Blood Fetish (Sep 20, 2010)

elmoreas said:
			
		

> I may disagree with you but I will not force it on you and I will not make you feel inferior for not beliveing.


Prostitution. Prohibition. Gay marriage. Etc. Religion forces their made up value system on everyone against their will.


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## Zetta_x (Sep 20, 2010)

L-Lawliet said:
			
		

> If God was real, there would not have been 9/11




Are you saying there is no possible way for "God to be real and 9/11 not to happen?"

Maybe god decided to help with over population?
Maybe god decided to make the world a little less boring?

There are so many reasons why the premises of your argument to be true but the conclusion to be false and I'm purely taking a standpoint that if god was a human being who makes decisions like human beings. This is why debating with religion is so hard, because most people clearly do not have the concept of what makes an argument valid, proofs, or a lack of extremely biased opinions.

I wanted to illiterate that I don't believe in any common religions. The religion I believe in is: "If a god does not exist, then I don't believe a god." god is defined as the ultimate object in the universe. In a finite or countably infinite universe, there must exist an ultimate object (with ultimate having some sort of universal definition). If there does not exist an ultimate object, then by my religion I do not believe in a god. Any more details about god clearly cannot be shown true. Which is why when someone tells me how to pray, how to study god, how to act for god, how I should spread religion, how I should do anything with god I get offended. My goal in life is to disprove all forms of common religions (I don't have to name them). Religions today that require huge churches to study and huge bibles to read are a form of control full of ways to exploit people by god. They tell you what is right of wrong and if you have ever studied morality, nothing is truly right or wrong. Religion makes people blind, they can't see the second half of the spectrum, they believe what they believe because they were told to believe it. Religious people take people like me, who use logical approaches, and deems them as spawns of anti-religion where I am out casted and demoralized. Society puts people like me at the edge of a cliff and tells me that if I continue my goals, they will kill me to protect its bias circle of control. Society and Religion morality are all there to benefit the higher ups, keep the lower down people against each other to protect themselves.

F my life, I get too involved in this shit. (Shit is not a bad word, if you take offense of me saying that, you probably need to lighten up)


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## Uncle FEFL (Sep 21, 2010)

Ossot said:
			
		

> I don't think he's implying debates are pointless. I think he's insinuating that faith is one of those things people don't change their mind in, regardless of stance. Especially not from some random 17 year olds paraphrasing of an AP philosophy course or a youtube video he saw of Dawkins.


I think people are able to change their minds, but fear is the issue. Who wants to die? No one, but when eternal happiness is added to the mix, and you need to be a moral person to get there, that changes things. People always give up rights and sanity when it takes away fear. It's the duty of every human being, that is able, to decide for themselves after being educated. And in terms of religion, it doesn't take much education to logically disbelieve in God, or rationally (ie, your personal thoughts) believe in God. 

You are too condescending of seventeen year-olds. I think a lot of teenagers are intelligent and mature, we're just given a bad reputation because of the dummies that don't know how to control themselves and are apathetic towards anything without a vagina (or a penis, I guess).


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## Eruonen (Sep 21, 2010)

I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe there is a god, but I am not certain about it.

What should I vote? I can't decide.


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## BobTheJoeBob (Sep 21, 2010)

Eruonen said:
			
		

> I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe there is a god, but I am not certain about it.
> 
> What should I vote? I can't decide.


Maybe the "There or may or may not be a god, I'm not sure" answer? Just a thought.


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## DarkStriker (Sep 22, 2010)

There may or may not be a God. I'm not sure.

Certainly the "Gods" either tried to lead the people somewhere guiding them, creating the known living rules in each religion. Like you should not steal etc.. I dont think that not believing in a certain God to that certain religion means that you cant be one. I think religion is just a "guideline" to guide your life through. Though everyone should know these golden rules as most of them already is a law.


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## Tanas (Oct 2, 2010)

An interesting video that shows the ignorance of the American Theist.


http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/se...li29-ar-530732/


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## Kutxiii (Oct 2, 2010)

Only 408 replies???  that's not normal!!!


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## monkat (Oct 2, 2010)

What the fuck? This thread is still going on?!


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## Kutxiii (Oct 2, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> What the fuck? This thread is still going on?!




Just like the religion!!

It never gonna end!!


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## Kutxiii (Oct 2, 2010)

God is WORD.   Communication . Worldwide.


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## YoshiKart (Oct 2, 2010)

It's not a religion, it's a relationship.

That's the true meaning of understanding Him.


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## Infinite Zero (Oct 2, 2010)

YoshiKart said:
			
		

> It's not a religion, it's a relationship.
> 
> That's the true meaning of understanding Him.


Exactly. What I have been trying to say in the past 9 years of my existence.


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## gamefreak94 (Oct 2, 2010)

God is obviously something made from human idealism from the past.
Each religion was made by someone in high authority to keep people in check. The now more popular religions christianity, catholic, muslim, buddihsm etc. was made by some one who most likely had power and disliked what was happening in their societies.  Of course there where many poor people back then and they used them to their advantages by saying stuff like if you do this then you will be forgiven or an eye for an eye no matter what social class you are in.  Of course the idealism of Heaven and hell also is manipulated to get people to do good so they can reach this place. I can't really explain but if you have read the World History books you will understand.  Also a flaw in the bible is that Jesus died for everyone's sins, but why are we not in paradise? If he cleansed everyone's sins they shouldn't Adam and Eve's sin be gone too?

Maybe offtopic but someone asked me if i believed in God and i said no (Ofcourse) and then they started preaching to me about gods miracles and stuff. And i said that even though i don't believe in god doesn't mean i'm a bad person.  Then that person states, and i quote "Well being a good person won't get you to heavan only if you worship him" I even asked that even a murderer can go to heavan just by believing? She said Yes! If this is "God" then no way I'll be taking his side. Now a days religion is all messed up.


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## Kutxiii (Oct 2, 2010)

Yeah, but if no one could speak, how could we name things or give orders, when we give orders there are actions, or  say that this is this and that is that...


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## Crass (Oct 5, 2010)




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## tehnoobshow (Oct 8, 2010)

yes i believe in god....im a muslim (got a problem?)


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## Deleted User (Oct 8, 2010)

No. That's cool.


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## abel009 (Oct 9, 2010)

gamefreak94 said:
			
		

> God is obviously something made from human idealism from the past.
> Each religion was made by someone in high authority to keep people in check. The now more popular religions christianity, catholic, muslim, buddihsm etc. was made by some one who most likely had power and disliked what was happening in their societies.  Of course there where many poor people back then and they used them to their advantages by saying stuff like if you do this then you will be forgiven or an eye for an eye no matter what social class you are in.  Of course the idealism of Heaven and hell also is manipulated to get people to do good so they can reach this place. I can't really explain but if you have read the World History books you will understand.  Also a flaw in the bible is that Jesus died for everyone's sins, but why are we not in paradise? If he cleansed everyone's sins they shouldn't Adam and Eve's sin be gone too?
> 
> Maybe offtopic but someone asked me if i believed in God and i said no (Ofcourse) and then they started preaching to me about gods miracles and stuff. And i said that even though i don't believe in god doesn't mean i'm a bad person.  Then that person states, and i quote "Well being a good person won't get you to heavan only if you worship him" I even asked that even a murderer can go to heavan just by believing? She said Yes! If this is "God" then no way I'll be taking his side. Now a days religion is all messed up.


+1

That said, would u rather live a life believing there is a god or (something), to die and find out there isn't? or would u rather live a live not believing and die and find out there is?
By what i wrote, u guys know my answer and there is a "maybe" not sure though.


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## lolzed (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm for Christianity


			
				gamefreak94 said:
			
		

> *Of course the idealism of Heaven and hell also is manipulated to get people to do good so they can reach this place*.
> You can't apply that to all religions,that would be pluralism in a sense.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Shinigami357 (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of God (or a God, even several Gods). A man believes what is right by his standards. The thing that makes this subject such a goddamn (no pun intended) sore topic is that there are some religions and their followers who just INSIST that their beliefs are absolute truth. I live in the Philippines, a predominantly Catholic country, and no offense, but the religion is just too overpoweringly obnoxious here. They shove their beliefs in your face, and even threaten the government with it. Seriously, what the [profane]???

Whether there is a God or not is a matter of opinion (which is prob why this thread is still going long after the OP abandoned it). Why should one opinion be worthier than another?


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## 0ddity (Oct 9, 2010)

lolzed said:
			
		

> We are not in paradise,because some people(for example,like you),has not accepted Christ as their Savior.You can't be saved unless you believe(read the verse above)



And therin lies the rub. For with this reasoning, any murderer, or genocidal maniac, can do these things, and still get to heaven as long as they believe and seek forgiveness from Christ, while a person who may have commited no crimes, and has led a much more "christlike" life through their actions (helping the poor, spreading peace/love, etc), will be damned to eternal hellfire just because they don't take zombie Jezus seriously. Any god who would not only allow that to happen, but would encourage it, is not a god worthy of worship.


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## lolzed (Oct 9, 2010)

0ddity said:
			
		

> lolzed said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God said it Himself,the most "good" man may appear to be "perfect",but you WILL have sin in your life.

Summary:Good works will not bring you to Heaven,only Christ.Good works is a result of Salvation.


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## BlueStar (Oct 9, 2010)

It's a rather horrible and arrogant God who would shun a good person simply because they were the wrong religion.  If a human did that we'd call it bigotry.


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## Overlord Nadrian (Oct 9, 2010)

Funny but true:


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## Tanas (Oct 9, 2010)

Also funny but very true.


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## Shinigami357 (Oct 9, 2010)

The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance...logic can be happily tossed out the window.

THIS


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