# Covid-19 vaccine



## x65943 (Dec 17, 2020)

Will you get the covid vaccine? And if so, which one - the RNA vaccine or the traditional one?

I'm scheduled to get the pfizer one soon. There have been very few reports of anaphylaxis so far, but it has been managed effectively with epinephrine.

What are your thoughts?


----------



## leon315 (Dec 17, 2020)

First of all this vaccine DOESN'T have long period of consistent clinic tests and thus there will potentially unwanted or even deadly side effects, however the 1st subjects who get vaccine are Medics, teachers and elderly, most probably we as CIVILIANS have rather wait till second wave for vaccination.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 17, 2020)

Hello.



> *Will you get the vaccine?*



No,I also do not want Flu Vaccines.
My still intact Immune System is too valuable for me to be destroyed by certain Chemicals / Poisons and Viruses = Vaccines.

If People want it,of course,please,they should get it,please.


----------



## MMX (Dec 17, 2020)

why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory


----------



## x65943 (Dec 17, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> Hello.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you at least get other vaccines like for tetanus and measles?

I can understand being afraid of new vaccines, but old ones with proven safety over decades are silly to stay away from.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 17, 2020)

x65943 said:


> Do you at least get other vaccines like for tetanus and measles?
> 
> I can understand being afraid of new vaccines, but old ones with proven safety over decades are silly to stay away from.



Only no Flu and Covid19 - I am not afraid,but I have an intact Immune System (I had no Flu for over 4 Years and still no Covid/Symptoms *knock on Wood*).

Flu - In my Opinion senseless - If/when the Vaccine is about to "work" ,the Virus(es) are already mutated to the "next Level" so it is no effective Protection.......in my Opinion...same for Corona.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 17, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> Only no Flu and Covid19 - I am not afraid,but I have an intact Immune System (I had no Flu for over 4 Years and still no Covid/Symptoms *knock on Wood*).
> 
> Flu - In my Opinion senseless - If/when the Vaccine is about to "work" ,the Virus(es) are already mutated to the "next Level" so it is no effective Protection.......in my Opinion...same for Corona.


The flu vaccine changes every year and its contents are determined by an educated guess as to which strains will be circulating that cycle. For that reason they don't always get it right, but it still confers a degree of protection and saves lives every year.

As for COVID there is no data showing that mutation by the virus will render the vaccines ineffective - corona viruses don't have the ability to mutate in the same way the flu does. The flu doesn't evolve naturally, rather it's simply shuffling around different components in animal hosts. So the flu is really several different viruses shuffling around their parts.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 17, 2020)

x65943 said:


> The flu vaccine changes every year and its contents are determined by an educated guess as to which strains will be circulating that cycle. For that reason they don't always get it right, but it still confers a degree of protection and saves lives every year.
> 
> As for COVID there is no data showing that mutation by the virus will render the vaccines ineffective - corona viruses don't have the ability to mutate in the same way the flu does. The flu doesn't evolve naturally, rather it's simply shuffling around different components in animal hosts. So the flu is really several different viruses shuffling around their parts.



You have to know your "Stuff",Uncle Doctor.

But I am sorry,this is (no longer) working for me.

I am really glad,we have People like you to help "sick" People.
That is very,very important and is good !!! 

Thank you for having all these great Guys around the World.



(I hope you do not get me wrong on my personal Opinion,my Friend.)


----------



## bodefuceta (Dec 17, 2020)

If it works, I don't need it because other people will take it, be immune and not transmit the virus to me.
If it doesn't work, I shouldn't take it anyway.
This way I can get all the benefits and no potential side effects.

Egotistical? Perhaps so, but I don't care about your opinion! Go and take it, my fellow cattle.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 17, 2020)

bodefuceta said:


> If it works, I don't need it because other people will take it, be immune and not transmit the virus to me.
> If it doesn't work, I shouldn't take it anyway.
> This way I can get all the benefits and no potential side effects.
> 
> Egotistical? Perhaps so, but I don't care about your opinion! Go and take it, my fellow cattle.


You will only be protected by herd immunity if enough people get the vaccine - otherwise it will still continue to spread among the unvaccinated and the 5% or so of those who are vaccinated without development of immunity.

At least in the USA about half of people say they will not get the vaccine or are unsure if they will get it. So your herd immunity plan might not work out for you.

I suspect Brazil will have its fair share of skeptics too.


----------



## bodefuceta (Dec 17, 2020)

x65943 said:


> You will only be protected by herd immunity if enough people get the vaccine - otherwise it will still continue to spread among the unvaccinated and the 5% or so of those who are vaccinated without development of immunity.
> 
> At least in the USA about half of people say they will not get the vaccine or are unsure if they will get it. So your herd immunity plan might not work out for you.
> 
> I suspect Brazil will have its fair share of skeptics too.


50% is more than enough for herd immunity, as the current transmission rate is definitely below 2. (though it may take a bit of time until the tranmission is completely curbed, the risk will be hugely reduced)


----------



## ghjfdtg (Dec 17, 2020)

Will get it once the "guinea pigs" (yeah, that sounds harsh but considering how rushed it is that's what the first people to get it are) confirmed it works as expected without major downsides. Which one i don't know. Until there is enough available of both you won't have a choice anyway.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 17, 2020)

bodefuceta said:


> 50% is more than enough for herd immunity, as the current transmission rate is definitely below 2. (though it may take a bit of time until the tranmission is completely curbed, the risk will be hugely reduced)


It could be 50%, it could be higher. But it will take months to vaccinate all of those people (especially in poorer countries) and in the meantime you will be vulnerable.


----------



## DJPlace (Dec 17, 2020)

i don't know but if prevent you from getting Covid for life then yeah... sure. i got chicken pox when i was hell i don't rember but i was not a teenager of adult when i got it. but once you get that shot for chicken pox you don't get it any more.


----------



## bodefuceta (Dec 17, 2020)

x65943 said:


> It could be 50%, it could be higher. But it will take months to vaccinate all of those people (especially in poorer countries) and in the meantime you will be vulnerable.


It just so happens that I am not old, fat or willing to pay for this suspicious injection. If I were to get it, I would be at the end of the queue anyway, meaning the vaccine is more likely a very unnecessary risk than anything else.


----------



## Doran754 (Dec 17, 2020)

MMX said:


> why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory



I found the wannabe dictator.


----------



## MMX (Dec 17, 2020)

shamzie said:


> I found the wannabe dictator.



what is your alternative? people dying and shops going bankrupt?


----------



## Doran754 (Dec 17, 2020)

MMX said:


> what is your alternative? people dying and shops going bankrupt?



My alternative is too not force people to do things beyond their will, seeing as though were not China.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 17, 2020)

Here's the rundown.

If you take the vaccine, you'll still have to wear a mask.
The vaccine has a 95% success rate, while COVID has a 99% survival rate.
Facial paralysis is a side-effect of the vaccine.
Infertility is a side-effect of the vaccine. It won't affect me, but it could affect my sister.
The second dose will give you nigh-unbearable headaches for the rest of the day.
You can't sue anybody if the vaccine tuins your life.

I'll take my chances with COVID.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Here's the rundown.
> 
> If you take the vaccine, you'll still have to wear a mask.
> The vaccine has a 95% success rate, while COVID has a 99% survival rate.
> ...


Facial paralysis was noted in some people who received the vaccine, but so far it is not clear if that is at a higher rate than the general population. I'm gonna need some sources to back up your infertility claims.


----------



## Taleweaver (Dec 17, 2020)

I've already answered this question elsewhere. It hasn't changed: yes, I'll get it as soon as it becomes available for me, but the medical workers and elders are - rightfully - a higher priority right now.

I'll also repeat my "fuck you" aimed at those who refuse it for other than medical reasons.



alexander1970 said:


> Only no Flu and Covid19 - I am not afraid,but I have an intact Immune System (I had no Flu for over 4 Years and still no Covid/Symptoms *knock on Wood*).
> 
> Flu - In my Opinion senseless - If/when the Vaccine is about to "work" ,the Virus(es) are already mutated to the "next Level" so it is no effective Protection.......in my Opinion...same for Corona.


Ouch...I hate to break it to you, mate...but that reasoning is worse than most anti-vaxxers I've heard. 

Mutations always happen, but in order for mutations to actually influence things requires something important like 'immunity from the vaccination' requires many generations (and that's assuming the vaccine isn't reproducable with more "current" stains of the virus...but this is a topic I know little about). In order to mutate to that degree, it needs to survive long enough in a fertile environment.
With a few vulnerable animals as exception, humans are the best 'breeding ground' for the virus (has to be, or it wouldn't be able to spread to others). So what's the best chance of eliminating the thing? Vaccinate as many people as possible.

In other words: your idea that covid-19 vaccinations won't work "because of mutation" is only helping creating that truth in the long term.

I'm not sure what to say about the "I have an intact ummune system" argument. Yeah...so have I. So had most of the covid-19 patients. The reason we're currently not infected is partially our precautions, but - let's be honest here - also because of luck. But there shouldn't be a reason to rely on luck when you've got an actual vaccine that eliminates that factor.

So please...at least think about what you're saying, will you? 

It's not that I'm not thankful for your kind words to me, but I don't "just" vaccinate myself for the sick people...I do it for all the POTENTIAL sick people that live now and will live after us. I don't want my daughter to grow up in a world where she has to get annual anti-covid vaccination shots because too many people in 2020/2021 came up with reasons to avoid fighting it.



shamzie said:


> I found the wannabe dictator.


I'd rather be a dictator over a healthy world than a mere peasant in a dying world where everyone's just looking after themselves. So no, you "oooh, you want to force people agains their will, therefor you're evil" spiel doesn't apply here.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 17, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> So please...at least think about what you're saying, will you?



Maybe I made an Mistake,to make this "short Post" and Explanation.


I think we both are near the same Age.

Maybe I have different "Experiences" with these "illnesses" Topic like you and that is good so.

I live my life now 50 Years,and (when I was in the Age to decided it for myself) I was always right with my personal Decisions for me for the Health Topic.

I had my "Period" where I was "depending" on medical Drugs and Vaccines.So I know now exactly what I am doing.
I prefer the "Natural" Way of Healing and "hear" what my Body,Soul and Spirit needs.


As I said in my Post,it is my personal Opinion (and Experiences I made in my Life).
For me - No Vaccine.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Dec 17, 2020)

the pfizer one has a side effect though: it gives you a permanent hard on


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 17, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> It's not that I'm not thankful for your kind words to me, but I don't "just" vaccinate myself for the sick people...I do it for all the POTENTIAL sick people that live now and will live after us. I don't want my daughter to grow up in a world where she has to get annual anti-covid vaccination shots because too many people in 2020/2021 came up with reasons to avoid fighting it.



I understand this completely,my Friend.You have my full understanding.



Spoiler: Personal Note and not the Opinion of 94% of Mankind..



..and these People has to be right,correct ?

It is maybe a "Dream" that we get "rid" of Covid19 and his "Offsprings".....
Call me insane or Fool or Ignorant or whatever....Covid(19) was "artificially" created and only the "Creators" knows what is exactly to do....
And a little "Economic Crisis" has helped these People very often...the Past confirms that.

But I am only a Fool...so,please do not listen to him...he is used to that.


----------



## Lostbhoy (Dec 17, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> I had my "Period"



 

Sorry, couldn't resist!


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 17, 2020)

Lostbhoy said:


> View attachment 238490
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist!


Damn...I knew it,I had used Segment.


----------



## KageNinja (Dec 17, 2020)

MMX said:


> why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory


Are you joking?


----------



## Pipistrele (Dec 17, 2020)

Considering all the mayhem this virus already caused, I'll just roll with it. It's just not the kind of decision to "sit on", imo - the sooner it's done, the higher the chance of less people getting ill, and considering months of worldwide research and testing, I doubt people behind the vaccine would be that incompetent to rush it out the door without proper safety evaluation.


UltraSUPRA said:


> Facial paralysis is a side-effect of the vaccine.
> Infertility is a side-effect of the vaccine. It won't affect me, but it could affect my sister.


Both are debunked by this point, afaik - one is rare to the point of correlation, and the other was a social media hoax.


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 17, 2020)

x65943 said:


> Facial paralysis was noted in some people who received the vaccine, but so far it is not clear if that is at a higher rate than the general population. I'm gonna need some sources to back up your infertility claims.



https://davidicke.com/2020/12/04/dr...studies-and-call-for-co-signing-the-petition/

IDK so much about men, but apparently, it's been observed that the vaccine impairs the formation of placenta in females such that they essentially won't be able to reproduce. Also, I must say that the fact that there's sites like Wordpress closing down sub-sites discussing this stuff only makes one more curious and to take a trip to the Wayback Machine. If the information being spread around is false, why should it be taken down, de-platformed, or, to translate all of these terms into what they really are in plain English, censored?

I don't remember Thunderf00t trying to censor VenomFangX back in the day because what he said _could _lead to people holding "problematic" beliefs; if anything, the latter hung himself in terms of the argument when he tried to get the former's channel taken down and did a bunch of other stuff that made him look like the clown that he was.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 17, 2020)

As I have said previously, I will get vaccinated voluntarily. Costello will also get vaccinated voluntarily.

Those against the vaccine cite the low death rate but ignore long-covid. Polio survivors are living proof that just surviving an illness is not enough; you want to make a full recovery.

Source 1: https://gbatemp.net/threads/what-is-your-opinion-on-coronavirus-vaccines.573259/#post-9190321
Source 2: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/15/long-covid-what-we-know-so-far


MMX said:


> why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory


There's no point making the vaccine mandatory when there's not enough doses available for those who want one.


alexander1970 said:


> Hello.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For a vaccine which has passed phase 3 trials this argument is invalid. Unless you suffer from severe allergies you are much better off getting vaccinated.

Source 3: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...extreme-allergy-sufferers-regulators-reaction


bodefuceta said:


> 50% is more than enough for herd immunity, as the current transmission rate is definitely below 2. (though it may take a bit of time until the tranmission is completely curbed, the risk will be hugely reduced)


An estimated 70% of people need to be immune to the coronavirus for herd immunity to work.

Source 4: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...th/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808


Silent_Gunner said:


> https://davidicke.com/2020/12/04/dr...studies-and-call-for-co-signing-the-petition/
> 
> IDK so much about men, but apparently, it's been observed that the vaccine impairs the formation of placenta in females such that they essentially won't be able to reproduce. Also, I must say that the fact that there's sites like Wordpress closing down sub-sites discussing this stuff only makes one more curious and to take a trip to the Wayback Machine. If the information being spread around is false, why should it be taken down, de-platformed, or, to translate all of these terms into what they really are in plain English, censored?
> 
> I don't remember Thunderf00t trying to censor VenomFangX back in the day because what he said _could _lead to people holding "problematic" beliefs; if anything, the latter hung himself in terms of the argument when he tried to get the former's channel taken down and did a bunch of other stuff that made him look like the clown that he was.


This myth has already been debunked. False information gets censored because people believe it and spread myths.


> “It has been incorrectly suggested that COVID-19 vaccines will cause infertility because of a shared amino acid sequence in the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 and a placental protein,” she [Pfizer spokeswoman Jerica Pitts] said in an email. “The sequence, however, is too short to plausibly give rise to autoimmunity.”



Source 5: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...-causes-infertility-sterilization/6497018002/


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 17, 2020)

I have faith in the vaccine and plan to get it as soon as it is available to the broader public.
https://labs.icahn.mssm.edu/krammerlab/dr-krammer/
I followed the work of Austrian Professor Florian Krammer, Principal Investigator of the Sinai-Emory Multi-Institutional Collaborative Influenza Vaccine Innovation Center (SEM-CIVIC) in New York.
He took part in the Vaccine Phase 3 tests. He never got any kind of side effects.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 17, 2020)

I like this "Side Effect" Topic.
Thank God,all People are "equal" in physical Condition.....so all People would react in the same Way of the Vaccine.....of course.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 17, 2020)

Oh boy, we're gonna have a whole new round of Karens losing their shit when they're told they need to be vaccinated in order to attend large/group events and travel on airplanes.  Probably a lot of overlap with the people who refused to wear masks, too.

As for me, yeah I'll get the vaccine as soon as it's available to the general public in my area.  We have plenty of time to observe the side effects in healthcare and front line workers until then.  I'd prefer the Moderna vaccine as it doesn't have to be stored quite as cold and therefore is probably less painful at the site of injection, but either works.  I don't have any allergies that I'm aware of, so I'm not worried about a reaction in that regard.

Anybody who attended public school has already been vaccinated as a child.  Some of y'all need to stop being such wusses/conspiracy nuts.


----------



## Goku1992A (Dec 17, 2020)

Well it sucks because I have a son and the school is going to mandate for him to take it. I'll take it with my son I hate to do it but "sigh" it wouldn't feel right as a parent letting your child take a vaccine if you are not willing to take it. Only when it gets to the point that it's mandated I'm not voluntarily taking it.


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 17, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Oh boy, we're gonna have a whole new round of Karens losing their shit when they're told they need to be vaccinated in order to attend large/group events and travel on airplanes.  Probably a lot of overlap with the people who refused to wear masks, too.
> 
> As for me, yeah I'll get the vaccine as soon as it's available to the general public in my area.  We have plenty of time to observe the side effects in healthcare and front line workers until then.  I'd prefer the Moderna vaccine as it doesn't have to be stored quite as cold and therefore is probably less painful at the site of injection, but either works.  I don't have any allergies that I'm aware of, so I'm not worried about a reaction in that regard.
> 
> Anybody who attended public school has already been vaccinated as a child.  Some of y'all need to stop being such wusses/conspiracy nuts.



I'd say the push for this vaccine, given all of the smoke and mirrors regarding various statistics regarding COVID, and what we know hospitals have misreported numbers just to get more subsidies, when mixed in with the fact that these lockdowns really have been quite something for a virus that, for the most part, is only lethal to those with health issues and the elderly, which isn't that different from any other virus in that regard. I am not saying that people with those health issues shouldn't quarantine and watch out for their own health, but where was the Swine flu lockdown? Maybe it's because it never quite made it to Illinois iirc, but I don't remember us locking the entire nation down then!

I am not saying that COVID isn't lethal, as I have a cousin who, because of health issues, she had to go to the ER, get put on a ventilator, and was in quite the condition before she thankfully made it out of the ordeal alive. What I am saying is that we can't change the whole of society for what is a statistical minority.

For example, I have Asperger's. I have had issues with socializing with others even to this day, some of it being the Asperger's, and some of it being my personality. Anyways, I wasn't ever told to demand that everyone treats me the same as everyone else, or to expect it. I was taught to make eye contact, read non-verbal cues, show manners, and a lot of other things that NTs (neurotypicals) take for granted. I doubt I have it perfect, and I can only imagine the damage this whole mask BS that is still supposed to be mandated even if one was to take the vaccine has done to kids who have had to grow up in these turbulent times.


Last, but do we get to choose which vaccine we take, should we be given a choice of which and, hopefully, aren't forced at a metaphorical gunpoint to choose?


----------



## bodefuceta (Dec 17, 2020)

Goku1992A said:


> Well it sucks because I have a son and the school is going to mandate for him to take it. I'll take it with my son I hate to do it but "sigh" it wouldn't feel right as a parent letting your child take a vaccine if you are not willing to take it. Only when it gets to the point that it's mandated I'm not voluntarily taking it.


It sucks to hear this. Each day it seems like children become more like a commodity, something the government owns and allow you to raise the child for them, as long as you comply with their doctrines. Like a car that you "buy" and they take if you don't pay an yearly tax.


----------



## Big Man Tyrone2 (Dec 17, 2020)

Yes, although I don't want to be part of the first wave of vaccine recipients. Best to wait for results on a population-sized level.
To be honest, I don't really care if others take the vaccine or if they don't (provided that they aren't family/close friends). As long as me and my loved ones stay safe, it's just natural selection on whether you decide to take the vaccine or not.


MMX said:


> why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory


No.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 17, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Oh boy, we're gonna have a whole new round of Karens losing their shit when they're told they need to be vaccinated in order to attend large/group events and travel on airplanes.  Probably a lot of overlap with the people who refused to wear masks, too.
> 
> As for me, yeah I'll get the vaccine as soon as it's available to the general public in my area.  We have plenty of time to observe the side effects in healthcare and front line workers until then.  I'd prefer the Moderna vaccine as it doesn't have to be stored quite as cold and therefore is probably less painful at the site of injection, but either works.  I don't have any allergies that I'm aware of, so I'm not worried about a reaction in that regard.
> 
> Anybody who attended public school has already been vaccinated as a child.  Some of y'all need to stop being such wusses/conspiracy nuts.


"I'm not worried about a reaction in that regard."

There was that Alaskan healthcare worker who had a reaction without any past history of significant allergic reactions, but this should be very rare.


----------



## laudern (Dec 17, 2020)

MMX said:


> what is your alternative? people dying and shops going bankrupt?



Why even allow abortion? Just call it what it is, murder.

FYI, I actually am pro-choice, but I call a spade a spade.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 17, 2020)

I'll get it. Fuck if I die by a vaccine (highly unlikely and it's not as rush to market as the Swineflu vaccine was), so be it.

But I also think people that don't get the vaccine should be shunned/be handled like children. "Oh you didn't vaccinate your precious children? Well sorry, they have to go to a different school. Thank you!"

It's a deadly disease. Do your civic duty.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 17, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> What I am saying is that we can't change the whole of society for what is a statistical minority.


Well...we didn't change the whole of society.  In fact, we didn't manage to get everybody to do even the bare minimum in combating this virus.  That's precisely why vaccination is more critical for the US than anywhere else, both our infection rate and death rate is ludicrous relative to our population size.

I remember when the entire country came to a standstill over the 2,977 that died on 9/11.  Now we have that many people dying daily and...meh?  Guess those deaths only matter if they can be used to perpetuate imperialism and endless war.



Silent_Gunner said:


> Last, but do we get to choose which vaccine we take, should we be given a choice of which and, hopefully, aren't forced at a metaphorical gunpoint to choose?


Yes, you'll get to choose, and nobody is going to force you to get any version of the vaccine.  As I said before, however, it's only a matter of time until businesses and venues decide to start requiring that customers be vaccinated to attend large events, fly on airplanes, etc.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 17, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Oh boy, we're gonna have a whole new round of Karens losing their shit when they're told they need to be vaccinated in order to attend large/group events and travel on airplanes.  Probably a lot of overlap with the people who refused to wear masks, too.
> 
> As for me, yeah I'll get the vaccine as soon as it's available to the general public in my area.  We have plenty of time to observe the side effects in healthcare and front line workers until then.  I'd prefer the Moderna vaccine as it doesn't have to be stored quite as cold and therefore is probably less painful at the site of injection, but either works.  I don't have any allergies that I'm aware of, so I'm not worried about a reaction in that regard.
> 
> Anybody who attended public school has already been vaccinated as a child.  Some of y'all need to stop being such wusses/conspiracy nuts.


There's the flu vaccines, where they've been tested for years to the point that they have a proven formula to protect people from each strand, and then there's the new vaccine that took seven months. I'd rather risk COVID.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> I remember when the entire country came to a standstill over the 2,977 that died on 9/11.  Now we have that many people dying daily and...meh?


Comparing the entire country to one city block?


----------



## linuxares (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> There's the flu vaccines, where they've been tested for years to the point that they have a proven formula to protect people from each strand, and then there's the new vaccine that took seven months. I'd rather risk COVID.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55041371

Please, they been working on the same kind of viruses for years... educate yourself man.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> There's the flu vaccines, where they've been tested for years to the point that they have a proven formula to protect people from each strand, and then there's the new vaccine that took seven months. I'd rather risk COVID.


Yes yes, I'm sure I'd be paranoid too if I was 15, had a bunch of right-wing propaganda sites bookmarked, and didn't understand the first thing about any of the science that goes into developing, testing, and approving a vaccine.

And don't worry, you won't be risking anything, because you'll still be stuck inside while the rest of us are out enjoying ourselves come next summer.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 17, 2020)

linuxares said:


> https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55041371
> 
> Please, they been working on the same kind of viruses for years... educate yourself man.


If COVID is so similar to diseases that we've had for years, why did we have to lock down or mandate masks?


----------



## Xzi (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If COVID is so similar to diseases that we've had for years, why did we have to lock down or mandate masks?


Because "similar" =/= "the exact same?"  We had a vaccine for a different coronavirus already, just not COVID-19 specifically.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 17, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Because "similar" =/= "the exact same?"  We had a vaccine for a different coronavirus already, just not COVID-19 specifically.


But we still had a similar disease before. You don't lock down an entire country for a disease you've dealt with before just because you don't have a vaccine. Otherwise, we'd lock down every time a new strand of the flu was discovered.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> But we still had a similar disease before. You don't lock down an entire country for a disease you've dealt with before just because you don't have a vaccine. Otherwise, we'd lock down every time a new strand of the flu was discovered.


...It's called "COVID-19" because it was discovered in late 2019.  We hadn't "dealt with it before" or we would've had a vaccine for it ready to go the second patient zero was discovered in the US.  What even is logic?


----------



## SAIYAN48 (Dec 17, 2020)

Once it's proven to have little to no side effects, then I might. I really want the nasal spray; I hate needles!


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 17, 2020)

Xzi said:


> ...It's called "COVID-19" because it was discovered in late 2019.  We hadn't "dealt with it before" or we would've had a vaccine for it ready to go the second patient zero was discovered in the US.  What even is logic?


We did deal with it before. It's a different strand of the virus. Different strands mean that you need to create a new vaccine, but the effect on people is still the same.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> We did deal with it before. It's a different strand of the virus. Different strands mean that you need to create a new vaccine, but the effect on people is still the same.


Oh my sweet summer child.  No.  The only 1:1 similarity between the previous virus (swine flu) and COVID-19 is that they're both coronavirus, "corona" meaning "crown."  The mortality rate, how the virus is spread, the parts of the body it attacks, everything else is entirely different.  Put simply: the outer structure of each virus cell is nearly identical, but it's the inner-workings of COVID-19 which took at least 11 months to understand.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If COVID is so similar to diseases that we've had for years, why did we have to lock down or mandate masks?


Because MERS and SARS were very local, and didn't spread half around the world. They weren't as infectious. Also it's very common in South East Asia to wear masks already, as a common courtesies to not spread a common cold to others Why do you think some countries manage to handle COVID better than some others?
This is the Spanish flu all over again, but this time around, we got more information, more knowledge and better healthcare.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Dec 17, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> You don't lock down an entire country for a disease you've dealt with before just because you don't have a vaccine.



I don't know if you've looked outside your basement window or checked the internet any time over the past 11 months, but newsflash - the US didn't lock down.



linuxares said:


> This is the Spanish flu all over again, but this time around, we got more information, more knowledge and better healthcare.



And more stupidity, misinformation, and Dunning-Kruger Effect.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 17, 2020)

Sicklyboy said:


> I don't know if you've looked outside your basement window or checked the internet any time over the past 11 months, but newsflash - the US didn't lock down.


I had to wear a mask at the mall. When I'm talking about lockdowns, I don't just mean actually forbidding anyone to go outside, I mean mandating anything that isn't normal and restricting freedom for the sake of """safety""". I'd like you to look at this graph.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'd like you to look at this graph.


yes, and? we already know youre being brainwashed by right wing conspiracy theories, you didnt need to post that picture saying basically the same thing


----------



## omgcat (Dec 18, 2020)

x65943 said:


> Facial paralysis was noted in some people who received the vaccine, but so far it is not clear if that is at a higher rate than the general population. I'm gonna need some sources to back up your infertility claims.



but not greater than background stats.

there were 4 cases of bells palsy in the 30k test group (13.33/100000), which is lower than background chances of getting it in general (24/100,000). also, all incidences of bell's palsy resolved in less than 21 days.

I'm getting the vaccine when available since I'm worried about covid fucking me up long-term (long haulers) or it giving me Erectile dysfunction / sperm damage.

i guess people will risk their dick not working / neutering themselves to own the libs!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



UltraSUPRA said:


> I had to wear a mask at the mall. When I'm talking about lockdowns, I don't just mean actually forbidding anyone to go outside, I mean mandating anything that isn't normal and restricting freedom for the sake of """safety""". I'd like you to look at this graph.
> View attachment 238509



are you in an abusive relationship when your doctor tells you to stop drinking bleach and eating 50,000 calories a day because it's fucking you up?

also, being under 18, your parents can force you to get vaccinated, or schools won't let you attend, which means no diploma for you, and by extension good luck getting into college.


----------



## Big Man Tyrone2 (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I had to wear a mask at the mall. When I'm talking about lockdowns, I don't just mean actually forbidding anyone to go outside, I mean mandating anything that isn't normal and restricting freedom for the sake of """safety""". I'd like you to look at this graph.
> View attachment 238509


Well, to quote the many right-wing pundits...
"If you don't like it, just leave!"


----------



## linuxares (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I had to wear a mask at the mall. When I'm talking about lockdowns, I don't just mean actually forbidding anyone to go outside, I mean mandating anything that isn't normal and restricting freedom for the sake of """safety""". I'd like you to look at this graph.
> View attachment 238509


So what you're saying that private businesses demands you to wear all mask to protect themselves and other's from you potentially have the virus? Sounds like like a part of said freedom that you you claim you don't have at the moment should continue to until we can vaccinated a majority of the world. 

As I said stated earlier. If you don't get the vaccine I hope people Fer special treatment like no fly bans, no school privilege amd hard to at least getting jobs. It freedom isn't granted, it's earned.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

omgcat said:


> also, being under 18, your parents can force you to get vaccinated, or schools won't let you attend, which means no diploma for you, and by extension good luck getting into college.


I'm homeschooled, and my parents said I won't have to get the vaccine if I don't want to.


linuxares said:


> So what you're saying that private businesses demands you to wear all mask to protect themselves and other's from you potentially have the virus?


The governor is the one who mandated masks.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 18, 2020)

Very nice,we have actual (December 18th 2020 - 1:44 am in Austria) a near 50:50 Percent Vote Result.
Very,very nice.


----------



## Viri (Dec 18, 2020)

No, maybe in the future.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> Very nice,we have actual (December 18th 2020 - 1:44 am in Austria) a near 50:50 Percent Vote Result.
> Very,very nice.


No surprise there, science has been politicized just like everything else.  Putin definitely got his money's worth when it came to Trump shaking peoples' faith in government and the CDC.


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 18, 2020)

Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/SomeoneAskTheQ/status/1339701597862027268


----------



## Goku1992A (Dec 18, 2020)

bodefuceta said:


> It sucks to hear this. Each day it seems like children become more like a commodity, something the government owns and allow you to raise the child for them, as long as you comply with their doctrines. Like a car that you "buy" and they take if you don't pay an yearly tax.



When my son had went to daycare he had to have all of his current vaccines.I personally don't have a problem with the vaccine however it is being rushed to the public without reasonable testing so I do expect them to mandate it for schools and daycare. The kids won't always be able to do virtual classes forever. 

We live in a world where $$$ is more important than your health.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> https://twitter.com/SomeoneAskTheQ/status/1339701597862027268


Do you know what anecdotal evidence is?  Even before she receives the vaccine, this woman looks like she hasn't eaten or slept in days, which would be consistent with how hard we're riding our healthcare workers right now.


----------



## Jayro (Dec 18, 2020)

Oh boy, a thread for all the anti-vaxxer trash to come out of the woodwork. I can't _*possibly*_ see this thread turning into a dumpster fire. 

And yes, I'm getting the god-damn vaccine to protect me and my family.


----------



## KageNinja (Dec 18, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> https://twitter.com/SomeoneAskTheQ/status/1339701597862027268


This looks completely "safe"


----------



## qqq1 (Dec 18, 2020)

After years of being pestered by my doctors and pharmacy to get the flu vaccine I finally gave in and said ok. Then I became horribly sick. I don't know what was the exact cause but it was bad. That happened with a vaccine that has been tested and widely available since 1945. The covid vaccine was rushed in a few months. You guys go ahead. Maybe it's perfectly safe, like the flu vaccine, but that didn't work out well for me.


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Do you know what anecdotal evidence is?  Even before she receives the vaccine, this woman looks like she hasn't eaten or slept in days, which would be consistent with how hard we're riding out healthcare workers right now.



"Looks like" doesn't mean "is tired/starving."

We and that nurse live in the US, where we have food, water, electricity, state of the art facilities, air conditioning, heating, and a lot of things you and I take for granted that, thanks to those needs being taken care of, you, I, and everyone else can afford to debate stuff like working conditions for people who have plenty of safety nets compared to Venezuela, where they have to bury their dead in plastic bags?

Point is, I'm sure she's fine, especially since one of the commenters on the Twitter post read some article about the incident and it seems like the nurse is doing fine...for now.


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Well,  seems like there's already some funny business going on with this vaccine.



Sure, they shot him with another "vaccine" shot the day after, but the hospital staff are still claiming he got the first shot and are saying that he got "two shots" and will need to get his "third".   Why the deception the first time?  Hmm.....

Was that a dominion voting machine giving him the first shot?   Anonymous sources are stating this is "inconclusive" but may be true.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

qqq1 said:


> After years of being pestered by my doctors and pharmacy to get the flu vaccine I finally gave in and said ok. Then I became horribly sick. I don't know what was the exact cause but it was bad. That happened with a vaccine that has been tested and widely available since 1945. The covid vaccine was rushed in a few months. You guys go ahead. Maybe it's perfectly safe, like the flu vaccine, but that didn't work out well for me.


The flu vaccine is just a small portion of the dead/dormant virus meant to stimulate your own immune system into reacting.  It sounds like a full dose of the active virus might've straight-up killed you, and that's why your doctors were adamant about you getting the vaccine.



Silent_Gunner said:


> We and that nurse live in the US, where we have food, water, electricity, state of the art facilities, air conditioning, heating ...


You forgot no vacant ICU beds in some areas, nurses and doctors working 72+ hour shifts and witnessing death multiple times a day, etc.  They're willing to take the vaccine regardless of potential side effects because they've witnessed how the virus has ravaged the country first-hand.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 18, 2020)

qqq1 said:


> After years of being pestered by my doctors and pharmacy to get the flu vaccine I finally gave in and said ok. Then I became horribly sick. I don't know what was the exact cause but it was bad. That happened with a vaccine that has been tested and widely available since 1945. The covid vaccine was rushed in a few months. You guys go ahead. Maybe it's perfectly safe, like the flu vaccine, but that didn't work out well for me.



....and that is what our "PRO" Vaccine Freinds do not want to understand.....

We are different in physical Shape....you can not say "You have to do it,you Vaccine Refuser..."
*sigh*


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> Well,  seems like there's already some funny business going on with this vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, they shot him with another "vaccine" shot the day after, but the hospital staff are still claiming he got the first shot saying that it was a "second shot".   Why the deception the first time?  Hmm.....




Apparently, two shots are needed for this particular vaccine to be effective. I've read that vaccines requiring two shots isn't something exclusive to this particular one, FWIW.


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> Apparently, two shots are needed for this particular vaccine to be effective. I've read that vaccines requiring two shots isn't something exclusive to this particular one, FWIW.



Yeah, I know.  That's why I said under the video that he will need to get a "third shot".  Why if he got the first one?  They gave him the real shot because they got caught.


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 18, 2020)

Jayro said:


> Oh boy, a thread for all the anti-vaxxer trash to come out of the woodwork. I can't _*possibly*_ see this thread turning into a dumpster fire.
> 
> And yes, I'm getting the god-damn vaccine to protect me and my family.
> 
> View attachment 238543



Ah, ignoring nuance...

...as someone with Asperger's, I can say that I'm actually fine with vaccines. After all, you get them for measles, smallpox, etc., etc.. But with this particular vaccine? With how rushed out it is? And how members of the CCP have been found out to have infiltrated Pfizer?

Yeah, I'm gonna wait and see myself.


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> You forgot no vacant ICU beds in some areas, nurses and doctors working 72+ hour shifts and witnessing death multiple times a day, etc. They're willing to take the vaccine regardless of potential side effects because they've witnessed how the virus has ravaged the country first-hand.



How does this differ from any other time in history?  The only time in recent years where hospitals have been empty/under vacancy has been during this "pandemic" (see TikTok dancing nurses).  I can't believe how brainwashed some of you are by the chinese disinformation your leaders and MSM have filled your brainlet heads with.  Please get in line to take this vaccine and have your family log in to your account afterwards to let us know, so the proper "we lost another temper" announcement threads can be posted.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> How does this differ from any other time in history?


I suppose it doesn't differ much from the Spanish flu years, other than that it's hard to draw parallels.



morvoran said:


> I can't believe how brainwashed some of you are by the chinese disinformation your leaders and MSM have filled your brainlet heads with.


Like two weeks ago this was "Trump's vaccine."  What happened to that?  Oh right, you're a hiveminded idiot whose opinion changes with the direction of the wind.


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> I suppose it doesn't differ much from the Spanish flu years, other than that it's hard to draw parallels.


  Damn, I thought you were 13 years old, not 113 years old.  Why haven't you grown out of being a leftist, yet?



Xzi said:


> Like two weeks ago this was "Trump's vaccine." What happened to that?


  Trump and his admin did all they could to remove the restrictions which allowed companies to release the vaccine as soon as possible.  While this is not his vaccine exclusively, it would not have been released for years (as your Leaders/handlers on CNN and MSDNC were saying this entire year while bad mouthing him the whole time and saying he would need a miracle for it to be released this year) if not for his command over the process.


----------



## qqq1 (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> The flu vaccine is just a small portion of the dead/dormant virus meant to stimulate your own immune system into reacting.  It sounds like a full dose of the active virus might've straight-up killed you, and that's why your doctors were adamant about you getting the vaccine.



I've had the flu. I get sick, I get better. No issue. Nothing has made me sick like the time I got that shot. So for me, no thank you to another vaccine.


----------



## Deleted member 397813 (Dec 18, 2020)

I really don't know at this point. If it becomes publically available in canada, i kinda have to.
So I guess that is a yes.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> Damn, I thought you were 13 years old, not 113 years old. Why haven't you grown out of being a leftist, yet?


Well if I was a vampire, I'd at least want a large supply of healthy blood to drink, and so I guess I'd still be more concerned with America's health than you or Trump.



morvoran said:


> Trump and his admin did all they could to remove the restrictions which allowed companies to release the vaccine as soon as possible.


Yet he purchased half as much vaccine for the US as he had the opportunity to, and his administration is now reportedly delaying deliveries of the vaccine.  He'll only do the right thing when it requires no effort on his part, and even then he manages to fuck it up somehow.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> When I'm talking about lockdowns, I don't just mean actually forbidding anyone to go outside, I mean mandating anything that isn't normal and restricting freedom for the sake of """safety""".



Oh, right, so your normal routine of saying one thing, and meaning something completely different.



Silent_Gunner said:


> https://twitter.com/SomeoneAskTheQ/status/1339701597862027268



https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vasovagal-syncope/symptoms-causes/syc-20350527
https://www.cedars-sinai.org/health-library/diseases-and-conditions/v/vasovagal-syncope.html

People passing out from needles is nothing new. Fuck, one of my best friends isn't allowed to get flu shots at his job anymore because of it.


----------



## Big Man Tyrone2 (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> I can't believe how brainwashed some of you are by the Chinese disinformation your leaders and MSM have filled your brainlet heads with.



Yeah because you're a real, "patriot": One who grovels in front of daddy Trump, and will vehemently defend him throughout thick and thin. One who eats up whatever the next QAnon conspiracy is, regardless of any logical thinking or facts. One who can't cope with the fact that your guy lost and the other guy won. No pal, you aren't some kind of, "free thinker", you're just an idiot.

But please, tell me again how I'm, "brainwashed" for actively preventing the spread of a disease.


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Well if I was a vampire, I'd at least want a large supply of healthy blood to drink, and so I guess I'd still be more concerned with America's health than you or Trump.


  Wow, you must be smoking pure THC crystals.  You need to share.

Also, here's this:
*Video Shows Joe Biden Taking Off His Mask To Cough Right Into His Hand*



Xzi said:


> He'll only do the right thing when it requires no effort on his part


  You know his admin helped to rush the process.  He isn't a dictator (like your kind seem to think) that can just snap his fingers and have everyone do his will.



Big Man Tyrone2 said:


> But please, tell me again how I'm, "brainwashed" for actively preventing the spread of a disease.


  Damn it, Xzi... why you sharing your THC crystals with this "man" and not me?

@Big Man Tyrone2 sorry to misgender you as you have "man" in your name.  I know I shouldn't assume these days.


----------



## KageNinja (Dec 18, 2020)

Big Man Tyrone2 said:


> One who can't cope with the fact that your guy lost and the other guy won.



There is evidence pointing to election fraud.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> You know his admin helped to rush the process.


His admin _allowed_ the process to be rushed.  That is the bare minimum that any president would have done.  His involvement was purely detrimental after that.



KageNinja said:


> There is evidence pointing to election fraud.


There's more evidence of the loch ness monster being real.


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> There's more evidence of the loch ness monster being real.


  This is only true for those that only watch CNN, MSDNC, etc. 

Do you have dead people seeing the Loch Ness monster?  Do you have video of people pulling the Loch Ness monster out of under tables after others leave the room?  Do you have more people seeing the Loch Ness monster than were present to see it?

Everyone that isn't a brainlet brainwashed by chinese disinformation can clearly see there was election fraud.



Xzi said:


> His admin _allowed_ the process to be rushed. That is the bare minimum that any president would have done. His involvement was purely detrimental after that.



I'm surprised that all the pedocrats aren't congratulating Biden and calling this the "Biden Vaccine" since he is the imaginary "president elect," just like that poll saying 60% think he's doing a good job so far.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> This is only true for those that only watch CNN, MSDNC, etc.


And also true for people that don't watch any of those.



morvoran said:


> Do you have dead people seeing the Loch Ness monster? Do you have video of people pulling the Loch Ness monster out of under tables after others leave the room? Do you have more people seeing the Loch Ness monster than were present to see it?


Sure man, you can have whatever you want in your


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> And also true for people that don't watch any of those.


  Well, you got me there.  It's true that there are people that only get their chinese disinformation from others that only watch those irrational opinion channels.  If you don't have anybody to tell you the real truth or find it yourself, you can only assume the lies are truths and opinions are facts (see Trump - Russian collusion).


----------



## Big Man Tyrone2 (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> I'm surprised that all the pedocrats aren't congratulating Biden and calling this the "Biden Vaccine" since he is the imaginary "president elect," just like that poll saying 60% think he's doing a good job so far.



Trump supporters pre-Electoral College vote: "Well Biden isn't the President-Elect until the Electoral College says he is! We have the EC in place for a reason!"
Trump supporters post-Electoral College vote: "There is no such thing as a, 'President-Elect.'"

I think you forgot to take your copium pills buddy.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 18, 2020)

morvoran said:


> It's true that there are people that only get their chinese disinformation from others that only watch those irrational opinion channels.


Yeah, I suppose there are those who fall for Chinese-funded disinformation campaigns such as the Epoch Times.  I'm betting you're among them.  Me, not so much.


----------



## morvoran (Dec 18, 2020)

Big Man Tyrone2 said:


> Trump supporters pre-Electoral College vote: "Well Biden isn't the President-Elect until the Electoral College says he is! We have the EC in place for a reason!"
> Trump supporters post-Electoral College vote: "There is no such thing as a, 'President-Elect.'"
> 
> I think you forgot to take your copium pills buddy.


  Ummm, I'm sure everyone on the "right side" of this has always said there's no such thing as the "Office of President Elect".   Seems Brian Stelter lied to you again.



Also, I'm not your pal or buddy, guy (sorry for another assumption).


@Xzi Let's take this conversation to the other thread (which I thought we were in) as this has nothing to do with covid-19 or vaccines.

@Big Man Tyrone2 Uh, you can stay here, um-kay?


----------



## bodefuceta (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Yeah, I suppose there are those who fall for Chinese-funded disinformation campaigns such as the Epoch Times.  I'm betting you're among them.  Me, not so much.


Falun dafa seeks nothing but (religious) freedom in china and are being actively persecuted, sent to concentration camps and having their organs harvested right now. But I see you think they wrote a couple of "fake news" so it's OK if they just get wiped off the earth right?

Yes, they are outspoken in favor of Trump. His external policy was a sliver of hope for the chinese people, as they have their souls continuously crushed by an immoral dictatorship since the cultural revolution, and that got worse since the brutal repression of the Tianmen massacre and the brutal leaders who took power due to, and not in spite of, mowing down people in the democratic protests of 1989. Trump has been the single external force to motion against the CCP, even if doing little. While the Bidens are CCP business partners and Hunter loves some CCP prostitutes and drugs.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 18, 2020)

This thread is now about stupid politicians...


----------



## djpannda (Dec 18, 2020)

linuxares said:


> This thread is now about stupid politicians...


yea... Moronvan and Ultrasupa got embarrassed in the "Joe Biden is President" thread, so now they trying to reek havoc in other threads..


----------



## plasturion (Dec 18, 2020)

No! I won't!


----------



## djpannda (Dec 18, 2020)

plasturion said:


> No! I won't!



... really?
isn't more likely that she felt pressure, nervous and anxiety being interviewed by the News, most people get stage fright. (look for all the Youtube videos of people fainting or throwing up while being interviewed)  .. Vaccines reaction tend to take a while before showing signs... like redness, sore, bruising. and bad cases of flu like systems usually take around several hours to 48hours to show up.


----------



## VinsCool (Dec 18, 2020)

"Will you get the vaccine?"

Yes, yes I will. Can't wait to be done with this shit, and some post vaccines side effects are nothing compared to months of social distanciation and conspiracy theorists.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Infertility is a side-effect of the vaccine. It won't affect me, but it could affect my sister.


don't take the vaccine it's a trap! the vaccine was really made by the *aschen!*


----------



## plasturion (Dec 18, 2020)

That vaccine was made thanks to cooperate with Biontech. This is thier first time, first product since 2008. 
Cool premiere, first run, zero experience.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

I've seen this thing a lot, and I can't agree more.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I've seen this thing a lot, and I can't agree more.
> 
> View attachment 238595


because none of those have a 100% success rate but each of them decrease the probability of being affected


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 18, 2020)

mRNA - It genetically modifies one's DNA

So, on that regard I refuse. Not to mention Bell's Palsy and other "side" effects it has. My pop's has Bell's Palsy himself though it's nowhere near as bad as others, I think he had it since birth or something so that's something I definitely don't want to have it myself.

Furthermore, UNESCO released the Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights so, if necessary I'll use that as defense to reject the vaccine. I'm healthy and don't need a vaccine that could make me sick.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 18, 2020)

Boesy said:


> mRNA - It genetically modifies one's DNA


it doesnt



> Facts about COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines
> 
> 
> *They cannot give someone COVID-19.*
> ...



https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> because none of those have a 100% success rate but each of them decrease the probability of being affected


By a virus with a 99% survival rate.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I've seen this thing a lot, and I can't agree more.
> 
> View attachment 238595


_If seatbelts work, why do we need brakes? If brakes work, why do we need seatbelts?_


----------



## x65943 (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> By a virus with a 99% survival rate.





Lacius said:


> _If seatbelts work, why do we need brakes? If brakes work, why do we need seatbelts?_


and don't get me started on airbags


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> By a virus with a 99% survival rate.


and much much higher for older people or people with pre exisiting health conditions. also this isnt just to prevent death, but also (and not limited to) to prevent hospitalization and the virus can still negatively affect your health long term. youre only ever thinking about yourself


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

Lacius said:


> _If seatbelts work, why do we need brakes? If brakes work, why do we need seatbelts?_


If you get COVID, you _might _get symptoms. If you get hit by a car, you _will_ get injured. There's a huge difference.


x65943 said:


> and don't get me started on airbags


Airbags kill. Lockdowns cause suicides. What do you know, it's an actually good analogy.


ut2k4master said:


> and much much higher for older people or people with pre exisiting health conditions. also this isnt just to prevent death, but also (and not limited to) to prevent hospitalization and the virus can still negatively affect your health long term. youre only ever thinking about yourself


The same applies to the flu.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> The same applies to the flu.


covid can cause a lot more serious illnesses


----------



## Lacius (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If you get COVID, you _might _get symptoms. If you get hit by a car, you _will_ get injured. There's a huge difference.
> 
> Airbags kill. Lockdowns cause suicides. What do you know, it's an actually good analogy.
> 
> The same applies to the flu.


302,261 Americans have died from COVID-19, including two of my relatives. You can fucking go to Hell.


----------



## Viri (Dec 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> No surprise there, science has been politicized just like everything else.  Putin definitely got his money's worth when it came to Trump shaking peoples' faith in government and the CDC.


Yes, I'm sure a poll on a video game piracy forum going a certain way has to do with Putin, looool.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

Lacius said:


> 302,261 Americans have died from COVID-19, including two of my relatives. You can fucking go to Hell.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> View attachment 238599



This is irrelevant to the fact that COVID-19 has killed 302,261 Americans. I don't know why I need to say this.
If we dropped a nuclear bomb on a city with a population less than 0.4 million (to keep the total deals below 2.9M), this meme would be just as helpful (i.e. not at all helpful).
This data is provisional and may be inaccurate.
People have pointed out to you already that deaths have gone down in part because people are sheltering in place. You are engaging in, at best, willful ignorance. At worst, you're intentionally deceiving people and encouraging behavior that can get people sick and/or killed.
Grow up or grow a brain. You're an idiotic asshole, and I no longer consider your age to be an excuse for your petulant behavior.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

Lacius said:


> People have pointed out to you already that deaths have gone down in part because people are sheltering in place


If that's the case, then why is COVID still an issue? Because people _aren't_ doing exactly what you said they _are_ doing?


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If that's the case, then why is COVID still an issue? Because people _aren't_ doing exactly what you said they _are_ doing?


people =/= all people
that includes you...


----------



## Lacius (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If that's the case, then why is COVID still an issue? Because people _aren't_ doing exactly what you said they _are_ doing?


302,261 Americans have died from COVID-19, you idiot.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

Lacius said:


> 302,261 Americans have died from COVID-19, you idiot.


Because people aren't sheltering in place?


----------



## Lacius (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Because people aren't sheltering in place?


Because people aren't social distancing, wearing masks, etc. Don't pretend you are just now learning this information for the first time.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Because people aren't sheltering in place?


there is no one reason, it's a mix of many things. The biggest reason is things spiraled out of control and we couldn't stop the virus before it spread in communities. There are strategies we can use to try to mitigate spread but the only thing that will stop it at this point is a vaccine or herd immunity.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 18, 2020)

x65943 said:


> there is no one reason, it's a mix of many things. The biggest reason is things spiraled out of control and we couldn't stop the virus before it spread in communities. There are strategies we can use to try to mitigate spread but the only thing that will stop it at this point is a vaccine or herd immunity.


And herd immunity will likely result in hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of excess deaths.


----------



## Apathetic_Discord (Dec 18, 2020)

Noticed a few references to the lady who "passed out after getting the vaccine."

Think I'll just leave this here...


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

Lacius said:


> And herd immunity will likely result in hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of excess deaths.


Herd immunity is the easiest method, the quickest method, and it solves the alleged issue of overpopulation.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Herd immunity is the easiest method, the quickest method, and it solves the alleged issue of overpopulation.


so you think herd immunity is good because it will kill humans? In case you didn't know overpopulation is not a problem in the USA.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 18, 2020)

x65943 said:


> so you think herd immunity is good because it will kill humans? In case you didn't know overpopulation is not a problem in the USA.


No, I don't think it's a good idea to kill people. However, freedom is more important than life, and I want my freedom back.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> No, I don't think it's a good idea to kill people. However, freedom is more important than life, and I want my freedom back.


without life there is nothing, not even freedom


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> No, I don't think it's a good idea to kill people. However, freedom is more important than life, and I want my freedom back.


what are you gonna do with all that freedom when youre dead?


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 19, 2020)

x65943 said:


> without life there is nothing, not even freedom





ut2k4master said:


> what are you gonna do with all that freedom when youre dead?


Ever heard of Heaven?


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Ever heard of Heaven?


yes, but what does that fairy tale have anything to do with the question?


----------



## Lacius (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> No, I don't think it's a good idea to kill people. However, freedom is more important than life, and I want my freedom back.



Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions of people, (myself included) want their loved ones back. But they can't get them back because of assholes like you.
Your freedoms have not been encumbered. If anything, you've been given too much freedom with regard to spouting nonsense on this site that objectively causes harm. In my opinion, you should be banned, and that fact that you haven't been banned (as well as other things) has caused me to consider deleting my account.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Ever heard of Heaven?


Whether or not it exists, there's no evidence that Heaven exists. This is one of the many harms of religious thinking. By being convinced that this life doesn't matter, you have no regard to human life or well being. Grow up.

When you acknowledge that this life might be (and probably is) all you get, you take human life and well being more seriously.


----------



## Apathetic_Discord (Dec 19, 2020)

Wait wait wait...are you really condemning and suggesting you'd rather have you and your loved ones "freedom" in Heaven, a place you're suggesting, that has no verifiable proof exists...because you don't want to take something that has no verifiable proof of there being any negative side effects worse then covid?

Are you for real? That is some irony.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 19, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions of people, (myself included) want their loved ones back. But they can't get them back because of assholes like you.


Everything is set in stone.


Lacius said:


> Your freedoms have not been encumbered. If anything, you've been given too much freedom with regard to spouting nonsense on this site that objectively causes harm. In my opinion, you should be banned, and that fact that you haven't been banned (as well as other things) has caused me to consider deleting my account.


"SPEECH IS DANGEROUS"
(Side note: I also want to leave this place, though for a different reason: I feel trapped.)


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Everything is set in stone.
> 
> "SPEECH IS DANGEROUS"
> (Side note: I also want to leave this place, though for a different reason: I feel trapped.)


what you need is a psychologist, not "heaven"


----------



## Lacius (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Everything is set in stone.


What are you trying to say here, that nothing matters, including the deaths of over 300,000 people and their mourning loved ones? Go fuck yourself.



UltraSUPRA said:


> "SPEECH IS DANGEROUS"


Speech can be dangerous. If you yell "fire" in a crowded theater where there is no fire and cause a mass panic, for example, that's dangerous. Telling people not to wear masks, social distance, vaccinate, etc. is dangerous.



UltraSUPRA said:


> (Side note: I also want to leave this place, though for a different reason: I feel trapped.)


Then leave.
(Side note: I just realized that if I cattily told you to go kill yourself, I'd probably have my post deleted and receive a warning, but if I told people to kill others by spreading a deadly infectious disease and defended it in part by saying it's admirable to cull the overpopulation, nothing would happen. This whole site needs to grow up. What a fucking double standard).


----------



## Apathetic_Discord (Dec 19, 2020)

Let's just say, for the sake of it, Heaven exists. And let's say the whole "rules for getting in" are the usual stuff mentioned.

Let's also say you choose not to get the vaccine, and by extension get infected, and by extension cause the death of someone vulnerable you walk past or know, be it an immuno-compromised person or someone in the At-Risk Category (Diabetic, Elderly etc.)...Do you really think your willful neglect that caused someone else to potentially die isn't going to be a bit of an issue?

Whichever way you slice it, you chose not to get vaccinated, knowing the risks and knowing the implications. You made that conscious decision, knowing it could kill someone. 

I'm pretty sure there are rules against that type of thing at the great pearly gates.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 19, 2020)

Lacius said:


> What are you trying to say here, that nothing matters, including the deaths of over 300,000 people and their mourning loved ones? Go fuck yourself.


No cost is too great for individual liberty.


Lacius said:


> Speech can be dangerous. If you yell "fire" in a crowded theater where there is no fire and cause a mass panic, for example, that's dangerous. Telling people not to wear masks, social distance, vaccinate, etc. is dangerous.


First amendment.


Lacius said:


> Then leave.


I've tried.


Lacius said:


> (Side note: I just realized that if I cattily told you to go kill yourself, I'd probably have my post deleted and receive a warning, but if I told people to kill others by spreading a deadly infectious disease and defended it in part by saying it's admirable to cull the overpopulation, nothing would happen. This whole site needs to grow up. What a fucking double standard).


Mask refusal isn't murder.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> No cost is too great for individual liberty.
> 
> First amendment.
> 
> ...



Your liberties aren't being encumbered.
The First Amendment doesn't guarantee unrestricted free speech.
You have the power to leave.
Mask refusal is reckless endangerment, and it's a crime in some areas.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> First amendment.


youve been told a million times already, but PLEASE look up what the first amendment actually means. you CANT say anything you want wherever you want without repercussions. we had this discussion before and you still chose to ignore it


----------



## Lacius (Dec 19, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> youve been told a million times already, but PLEASE look up what the first amendment actually means. you CANT say anything you want wherever you want without repercussions. we had this discussion before and you still chose to ignore it


At best, he's trolling. At worst, he's inciting reckless behavior that will almost certainly get people killed. Regardless, @UltraSUPRA should be banned. It's, like, the bare minimum that the GBATemp staff can do at this point. Even that might not make up for some of the nonsense I've seen get reported and slide by lately.


----------



## VinsCool (Dec 19, 2020)

I can admire perseverance, but at this point when someone is being proven wrong and still refuse to give up and learn better makes me feel pity.



Apathetic_Discord said:


> Wait wait wait...are you really condemning and suggesting you'd rather have you and your loved ones "freedom" in Heaven, a place you're suggesting, that has no verifiable proof exists...because you don't want to take something that has no verifiable proof of there being any negative side effects worse then covid?
> 
> Are you for real? That is some irony.


Yes, we all read that right.
It's seriously concerning.

It's one thing to be egoist, but this goes way deeper than just not wanting to sacrifice comfort because "it violates my freedom".



UltraSUPRA said:


> (Side note: I also want to leave this place, though for a different reason: I feel trapped.)


Yes, because being cornered and unable to defend your "opinions" doesn't feel nice, does it?


ut2k4master said:


> what you need is a psychologist, not "heaven"


Nah, you have to willingly go to see one, and if you don't want to help yourself, it would not be any helpful.

Don't forget he just mentioned the necessary deaths, if he truly wants to go to heaven, let him do as he wishes, until he realises he will end in hell for such a mentality.


Lacius said:


> Then leave.
> (Side note: I just realized that if I cattily told you to go kill yourself, I'd probably have my post deleted and receive a warning, but if I told people to kill others by spreading a deadly infectious disease and defended it in part by saying it's admirable to cull the overpopulation, nothing would happen. This whole site needs to grow up.


Oh believe me, I agree, this has been going for far too long.

Let's say I am getting fed up so at this point I might as well help and motivate him to leave by preventing any more pointless argument by claiming freedom and play deaf and dumb, if he wants a taste of censorship it might as well be a good time to offer it generously.



Now everyone can discuss in peace again.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 19, 2020)

Lacius said:


> At best, he's trolling. At worst, he's inciting reckless behavior that will almost certainly get people killed. Regardless, @UltraSUPRA should be banned. It's, like, the bare minimum that the GBATemp staff can do at this point. Even that might not make up for some of the nonsense I've seen get reported and slide by lately.


Nope, this is a discussion. Not with feelings but with facts. Ultra might be wrong on a lot of the topics, but he have the right to spew the nonsense.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 19, 2020)

Viri said:


> Yes, I'm sure a poll on a video game piracy forum going a certain way has to do with Putin, looool.


In part, yes.  In part it's simply American stupidity that's been festering for decades and has influenced the rest of the world over time.  But that also plays to the benefit of both Putin and Xi.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 19, 2020)

linuxares said:


> Nope, this is a discussion. Not with feelings but with facts. Ultra might be wrong on a lot of the topics, but he have the right to spew the nonsense.


well thats kind of a contradiction


----------



## Lacius (Dec 19, 2020)

linuxares said:


> Nope, this is a discussion. Not with feelings but with facts. Ultra might be wrong on a lot of the topics, but he have the right to spew the nonsense.


You're demonstrating my previous point about how the site needs to grow up. Inciting behavior that objectively leads to mass death, and acknowledging it, and claiming it's a good thing is not something that should be tolerated. This goes beyond simple political discourse.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 19, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> well thats kind of a contradiction


It is!



Lacius said:


> You're demonstrating my previous point about how the site needs to grow up. Inciting behavior that objectively leads to mass death, and acknowledging it, and claiming it's a good thing is not something that should be tolerated. This goes beyond simple political discourse.


We've yet to see where he claim it's a good point.

He fail to realize that surgent(s) stand with these mask for hours, and they need to to prevent infections in example open wounds. Therefore the proof have always been their that they work to stop droplets to reach said parts of a person.

At this very moment you let your feelings take over.  You can put him on ignore so you don't need to see his spew of nonsense if you want.
Costello have told us multiple times to encourage discussions.

But a better question is if now "freedom" is so important. Is it a right? or a privilege? 
They share a lot of similarities.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

Lacius said:


> You're demonstrating my previous point about how the site needs to grow up. Inciting behavior that objectively leads to mass death, and acknowledging it, and claiming it's a good thing is not something that should be tolerated. This goes beyond simple political discourse.


actually I think if anything ultrasupra is convincing people the anti-vax side is wrong. The issue is echo chambers, not discussion.

If we ban people from having real meaningful dialogue then we will just end up in safe spaces where we only hear what we want to hear - and then no one learns anything.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 19, 2020)

linuxares said:


> But a better question is if now "freedom" is so important. Is it a right? or a privilege?
> They share a lot of similarities.


Well let's be clear here: UltraSUPRA did advocate for the deaths of people _in general_, and the line goes, "_Life_, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" in that order, so I do think he perhaps crossed a line there.  Do I think he deserves a ban?  Nah.  A warning?  Maybe.  What the dude really needs is a therapist (as was already suggested), because he's become a nihilist.  A common symptom of following the internet's right-wing radicalization pipeline.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 19, 2020)

linuxares said:


> It is!
> 
> 
> We've yet to see where he claim it's a good point.
> ...


He said it's a good thing for millions of people to die in an attempt at herd immunity because it will solve the overpopulation problem.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 19, 2020)

Xzi said:


> because he's become a nihilist.  A common symptom of following the internet's right-wing radicalization pipeline.


Oh I agree he would/should get some professional help. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 19, 2020)

Lacius said:


> He said it's a good thing for millions of people to die in an attempt at herd immunity because it will solve the overpopulation problem.


It's an opinion.. a stupid one but still an opinion.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

to  be fair I think he was being ironic, it's why he said "supposed overpopulation problem". 

He is trying to use "the libs ideas against themselves"

Far as I can tell he doesn't really believe covid kills people at all. It's why he shared that image showing less people died this year than other years.


----------



## omgcat (Dec 19, 2020)

x65943 said:


> actually I think if anything ultrasupra is convincing people the anti-vax side is wrong. The issue is echo chambers, not discussion.
> 
> If we ban people from having real meaningful dialogue then we will just end up in safe spaces where we only hear what we want to hear - and then no one learns anything.



changing one's worldview is extremely difficult and painful, he won't change, just because humans really don't. you can link as many sources as you can, they will just ignore them, it's human psychology. no one on this forum will change anyone's mind unless they want their mind changed.

hell, the maga bois literally made a new social media platform (parlor) because reality is slapping them in the face, and they can't accept it, they'd rather leave.

we are not in the position to help indoctrinated people, they need real professional help, and it sucks.

this all boils down to social media, and trump's jonestownesque rhetoric, threats of "civil/race war", fake news don't believe the media, ect.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

omgcat said:


> changing one's worldview is extremely difficult and painful, he won't change, just because humans really don't. you can link as many sources as you can, they will just ignore them, it's human psychology. no one on this forum will change anyone's mind unless they want their mind changed.
> 
> hell, the maga bois literally made a new social media platform (parlor) because reality is slapping them in the face, and they can't accept it, they'd rather leave.
> 
> we are not in the position to help indoctrinated people, they need real professional help, and it sucks.


right, but we wouldn't exactly be a platform for discussion if we didn't facilitate discussion.

Sure he is unlikely to change his mind, but maybe someone on the fence will see the discussion and take something away from it.

Regardless he was following the rules even if we don't like what he said.


----------



## omgcat (Dec 19, 2020)

x65943 said:


> right, but we wouldn't exactly be a platform for discussion if we didn't facilitate discussion.
> 
> Sure he is unlikely to change his mind, but maybe someone on the fence will see the discussion and take something away from it.
> 
> Regardless he was following the rules even if we don't like what he said.



I'm going to argue that there are no longer any fence sitters. our society is so polarized, that it makes fence sitting impossible. we have tackled basically every easy problem there is in America, and are now stuck dealing with exceptionally hard/impossible problems(gun control, abortion, forced vaccination, ect).

everyone has picked a side, no one is genuinely neutral, hell centrists are literally a meme now.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

let's get back on topic guys, this thread is about whether you will be getting the covid vaccine.

If you have suggestions or opinions on topics of moderation please reach out to moderation staff.

Edit: btw if you guys didn't see I got mine today at noon


----------



## Doran754 (Dec 19, 2020)

x65943 said:


> let's get back on topic guys, this thread is about whether you will be getting the covid vaccine.
> 
> If you have suggestions or opinions on topics of moderation please reach out to moderation staff.
> 
> Edit: btw if you guys didn't see I got mine today at noon



Any headaches? Feel any better or worse than normal?

-snip-


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

shamzie said:


> Any headaches? Feel any better or worse than normal?


my arm hurts and I feel a little fatigued. Other than that pretty normal.

Reminds me of a flu shot.


----------



## Kanakops (Dec 19, 2020)

With my long list of allergy I don't think I will be able to take it but maybe one of the 2 others


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

Kanakops said:


> With my long list of allergy I don't think I will be able to take it but maybe one of the 2 others


they told me as long as you have never had anaphylaxis it's fine, but they will watch you for 30 minutes afterwards to make sure you don't have a reaction.

Use of an epi-pen ever is gonna mean no mRNA vaccine for you.

Regardless the traditional vaccine should be approved soon so if you want that you should be able to get it.


----------



## Doran754 (Dec 19, 2020)

x65943 said:


> my arm hurts and I feel a little fatigued. Other than that pretty normal.
> 
> Reminds me of a flu shot.



Nice one, hopefully things start getting back to normal next year.


----------



## Kanakops (Dec 19, 2020)

x65943 said:


> they told me as long as you have never had anaphylaxis it's fine, but they will watch you for 30 minutes afterwards to make sure you don't have a reaction.
> 
> Use of an epi-pen ever is gonna mean no mRNA vaccine for you.
> 
> Regardless the traditional vaccine should be approved soon so if you want that you should be able to get it.



I already got anaphylaxis + yep I use an epipen unfortunately, most of my allergy are severe but I will ask about my situation when the time will come. I have some people at risk in my family and obviously don't want to pick any chance with them but after all I don't want to be in a terrible situation after the shot either


----------



## Minox (Dec 19, 2020)

I will probably get it eventually, but I'm not going to rush to be one of the first people to get it. I'll let other more impatient people get it first.


----------



## RandomUser (Dec 19, 2020)

I thought that vaccine creation takes more then a decade. This vaccines only took months to develop. There has to be some corners being cut here.
Despite the FDA saying that it is safe, makes me wonder if this vaccination actually have some hidden and/or unforeseen dangers to it?
How viable is this vaccination? How long does it last?


----------



## x65943 (Dec 19, 2020)

RandomUser said:


> I thought that vaccine creation takes more then a decade. This vaccines only took months to develop. There has to be some corners being cut here.
> Despite the FDA saying that it is safe, makes me wonder if this vaccination actually have some hidden and/or unforeseen dangers to it?
> How viable is this vaccination? How long does it last?


Yeah it's true of course we don't know all of the long term complications that could come from the vaccine. And we don't have the answers to your other questions either.

The question arises tho, what are the unforeseen circumstances of contracting COVID itself? We also don't know.

There are pros and cons and you have to decide for yourself which you are more comfortable with.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 19, 2020)

Here in Austria it happens,what everyone feared - the Government spreads Fear and Panic on us "Vaccine Refusers"...
First we where getting "marked" with FFP2 Masks (because of not tested with completely unneccessary expensive buyed false indicating Tests).
And then we will be 1 Week longer locked at Home than Peple who I had this senseless Test...

Next Step: Forced vaccination

That is the correct and best Way,to get the (Refuser) People docile for Vaccination.
(of course,sarcastic meant...)


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 19, 2020)

If you live in a country which has the coronavirus situation under control then you have the luxury for waiting for more information. If you don't, then you're far better off taking your chances with the vaccine than with long-covid. While we can't outrule the possibility of longterm side effects to the vaccine, they seem very unlikely at this point. I will get vaccinated when the vaccine is available in Australia.


----------



## Veho (Dec 19, 2020)

x65943 said:


> The question arises tho, what are the unforeseen circumstances of contracting COVID itself? We also don't know.


Well, erectile dysfunction could be one. 

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/covid-erectile-dysfunction


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 19, 2020)

Veho said:


> Well, erectile dysfunction could be one.
> 
> https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/covid-erectile-dysfunction


What!? Fuuuu...


----------



## The Catboy (Dec 19, 2020)

I am going to get it as soon as it becomes more available in my area. I am someone who's overall health is at risk if I catch Covid, so I kind of see protecting myself as a top priority.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Dec 22, 2020)

so much for the vaccine the virus has mutated now into a new strain. if it gets out of Britain we are all fucked now


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> so much for the vaccine the virus has mutated now into a new strain. if it gets out of Britain we are all fucked now


There's no evidence yet that the vaccine isn't effective against the new strain.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 22, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> so much for the vaccine the virus has mutated now into a new strain. if it gets out of Britain we are all fucked now


Well, it is already out in europe. The mutated strain was first discovered in september.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 22, 2020)

Lacius said:


> There's no evidence yet that the vaccine isn't effective against the new strain.


....also not vice versa.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> ....also not vice versa.


Actually, there's some evidence that the presently available vaccines are effective against the new strain, but it hasn't been confirmed.


----------



## Zach9o9 (Dec 22, 2020)

koohiiwonomimasu69 said:


> There's no point making the vaccine mandatory when there's not enough doses available for those who want one.



I mean, benefit of the doubt. Considering the Anti-Vax movement not exactly helping the cause, issuing a mandatory Vaccination would allow a chance for the world to resume its pre-COVID state sooner. While the initial supply may not be enough, I'm sure that they could issue special "This person has not gotten vaccinated, but is actively working on trying to" badges/stamps/whatever, alongside putting them in a separate queue for them to allow _some _degree of leeway for people to get them without being forced to sacrifice their livelihoods while more work is put into making more vaccines to solve the issue.

I mean, with how quickly the world pretty much shut down due to the pandemic, we can't exactly afford to waste time with the Anti-Vax crowd. Especially with how much the world suffered without a vaccine. 

"Those who fail to learn the from the past are doomed to repeat it."


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

Live PCR test in Parliament: Coca Cola tests COVID-19 positive

Feds classifying all coronavirus patient deaths as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause

Gunshot victims listed as "Deaths among COVID-19"


----------



## TheRedfox (Dec 22, 2020)

First of all, why dump this in a vaccine thread.



tabzer said:


> Live PCR test in Parliament: Coca Cola tests COVID-19 positive



Coca cola eats stuff; you can dissolve organic material with it(see the popular dissolving teeth things etc)
These tests work with a membrane which only let the fluids pass through(and discolour the test for positives), with cole you destroy the membrane and the test will discolour.
Same for pregnancy tests like stated in the article you linked

What is your goal with posting these links here except for trolling people and failing to generate fear?


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> Live PCR test in Parliament: Coca Cola tests COVID-19 positive
> 
> Feds classifying all coronavirus patient deaths as ‘COVID-19’ deaths, regardless of cause
> 
> Gunshot victims listed as "Deaths among COVID-19"


There's no evidence of widespread misreporting with regard to COVID-19 deaths. As of this post, approximately 310,000 Americans have died from COVID-19.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

TheRedfox said:


> First of all, why dump this in a vaccine thread.



I see fight or flight responses kicked up in this thread.  It's a little off tangent, but it's also somewhat on topic.



TheRedfox said:


> Coca cola eats stuff; you can dissolve organic material with it(see the popular dissolving teeth things etc)
> These tests work with a membrane which only let the fluids pass through(and discolour the test for positives), with cole you destroy the membrane and the test will discolour.
> Same for pregnancy tests like stated in the article you linked



It is interesting and amusing; especially considering that it is already commonly known that the test yields a lot of false positives.



TheRedfox said:


> What is your goal with posting these links here except for trolling people and failing to generate fear?



Soft trolling I guess.  It's intention is more for relief imo.  I'm not saying you should not get a vaccine, but a fear, frustration, and isolation can hinder your immune system's response.


----------



## susi91 (Dec 22, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> No,I also do not want Flu Vaccines.
> My still intact Immune System is too valuable for me to be destroyed by certain Chemicals / Poisons and Viruses = Vaccines.
> 
> If People want it,of course,please,they should get it,please.



Me too 

I thought my whole life that the Flu is almost a joke, never heard about a single (proven) case of illness around me 
Two years ago, in February, I caught the flu, influenca A diagnosed by a clinic test... Some days later my whole family ill. Ofc same diagnosis, proved by a test at the local clinic. That was the shittiest illness in my life (as of today, lol), I took a lot of ibuprofen every day against the fever, I guess at least for two weeks. After two months still coughing... A year later I took the flu vaccine, thought that can't be worse than a lot of ibuprofen  Another year later, I skipped the flu vaccine, there are some people out there, they need it more...

I voted no, I think I'll skip the covid vaccine, lets see what happens


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

Lacius said:


> There's no evidence of widespread misreporting with regard to COVID-19 deaths. As of this post, approximately 310,000 Americans have died from COVID-19.



"For 6% of [coronavirus disease 2019] deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19 [94%], on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death." -CDC

A lot of articles on the subject reference CDC's "excess death".  Counts of deaths *from all causes of death*, including COVID-19, are presented.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> "For 6% of [coronavirus disease 2019] deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19 [94%], on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death." -CDC
> 
> A lot of articles on the subject reference CDC's "excess death".  Counts of deaths *from all causes of death*, including COVID-19, are presented.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm


A person having comorbidities doesn't mean COVID-19 didn't kill the person. Step up your game.


----------



## |<roni&g (Dec 22, 2020)

Not eager to get it right away myself. 
Already type 1 diabetic that's kicked my ass & am abnormally tired as I type this and trying to stay awake, not in a rush to play guinea pig on this new vaccine & I don't get flu ones either but still here (29 w/o proper flu since a child). I'll get it if itl give me a major, long standing energy boost but it's fantasy to hope it would do that because it won't.
I like going to wrestling shows so hope there is no discrimination against those who haven't had it. 
If half the country gets it and the other half don't, what's the problem? Half that wanted it are protected & those unsure (myself) have no right to treatment of virus related issues. That simple.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

Lacius said:


> A person having comorbidities doesn't mean COVID-19 didn't kill the person. Step up your game.



The data is supplemental to give more understanding behind the hysteria inducing claim "approximately 310,000 Americans have died from COVID-19".

You can take the vaccine or not.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> The data is supplemental to give more understanding behind the hysteria inducing claim "approximately 310,000 Americans have died from COVID-19".


High cholesterol is a comorbidity. Obesity is a comorbidity. Sickle cell anemia is a comorbidity. Being a smoker is a comorbidity. 310,000 Americans are dead from COVID-19. Grow up.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

It doesn't hurt to have more information.  What is your source?


----------



## mightymuffy (Dec 22, 2020)

Ehhh... I'm a key worker, so if my boss tells me I've got to take it, then I will (I'm not fukkin paying for it though! ) Likewise if my local GP tells me he's got one for me, fair do's...
As for worries, well if an aborted babby's yed starts sprouting out of my belly, then Bill Gates can afford to pay for the treatment can't he, etc etc...


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities
> 
> It doesn't hurt to have more information.  What is your source?


Your own source supports my previous statement. I suggest checking your own list of comorbidities and cross referencing it with the ICD-10 codes of what I listed.

Also, next time you address me, tag my username or reply directly to my message. Otherwise, there's a good chance I won't see it.


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 22, 2020)

djpannda said:


> ... really?
> isn't more likely that she felt pressure, nervous and anxiety being interviewed by the News, most people get stage fright. (look for all the Youtube videos of people fainting or throwing up while being interviewed)  .. Vaccines reaction tend to take a while before showing signs... like redness, sore, bruising. and bad cases of flu like systems usually take around several hours to 48hours to show up.



If I was in front of the camera, I'd be doing my best to not collapse. The fact that she did, and after taking the vaccine, no less, is cause for concern in relation to the vaccine unless other information that could contribute to someone passing out like she did comes out that makes the cause of said collapse to be more hazy.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Your own source supports my previous statement. I suggest checking your own list of comorbidities and cross referencing it with the ICD-10 codes of what I listed.
> 
> Also, next time you address me, tag my username or reply directly to my message. Otherwise, there's a good chance I won't see it.



I wasn't contradicting you about comorbidities, even though you are pretty dismissive about them.   I'd like to see the source you used to conclude that COVID-19 has killed 310,000 people.  Sounds a little sensational a bit misleading.


----------



## djpannda (Dec 22, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> If I was in front of the camera, I'd be doing my best to not collapse. The fact that she did, and after taking the vaccine, no less, is cause for concern in relation to the vaccine unless other information that could contribute to someone passing out like she did comes out that makes the cause of said collapse to be more hazy.


there is not way to know how you will react in front of a Camera unless you already been. by your logic all these people ( https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=people+fainting+on+live+tv) also fainted because of the Vaccine ...*because if they did not then your whole logical is thrown out the window..*


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> I wasn't contradicting you about comorbidities, even though you are pretty dismissive about them.   I'd like to see the source you used to conclude that COVID-19 has killed 310,000 people.  Sounds a little sensational a bit misleading.


https://covidtracking.com/data


----------



## Silent_Gunner (Dec 22, 2020)

djpannda said:


> there is not way to know how you will react in front of a Camera unless you already been. by your logic all these people ( https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=people+fainting+on+live+tv) also fainted because of the Vaccine ...*because if they did not then your whole logical is thrown out the window..*




And I quote...

_*"unless other information that could contribute to someone passing out like she did comes out that makes the cause of said collapse to be more hazy."*_


----------



## djpannda (Dec 22, 2020)

Breaking news I found proof the the Corona Vaccine cause people to faint based on youtube video of news programs from the 90s...


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

Lacius said:


> https://covidtracking.com/data


Thank you.  I've never seen that site before.  I've been trying to navigate CDC's site because of all the WAPO references to it for its data..



djpannda said:


> Breaking news I found proof the the Corona Vaccine cause people to faint based on youtube video of news programs from the 90s...


2.8% of Pfizer vaccine recipients have Health Impact Event, require medical care


----------



## Doran754 (Dec 22, 2020)

Lacius said:


> High cholesterol is a comorbidity. Obesity is a comorbidity. Sickle cell anemia is a comorbidity. Being a smoker is a comorbidity. 310,000 Americans are dead from COVID-19. Grow up.



310,000 americans died with covid, not from it. Being a chainsmoking fat mess probably contributed more to their death. I'd suggest the 99.6% survival rate of covid backs this up. Grow up.


----------



## djpannda (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> 2.8% of Pfizer vaccine recipients have Health Impact Event, require medical care


oh ..so its on Par with the *Regular FLU vaccine* and other Vaccine already in use. Thank For letting US know the Corona Vaccine is safe!


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2020)

shamzie said:


> 310,000 americans died with covid, not from it.


Approximately 310,000 Americans died as a direct result of COVID-19. Other contributing factors are irrelevant to the truthfulness of that statement.



shamzie said:


> Being a chainsmoking fat mess probably contributed more to their death.


For some people, those were contributing factors. That doesn't mean they didn't die as a direct result of COVID-19. The vast majority of people who died from COVID-19 also weren't "chain smoking fat messes."



shamzie said:


> I'd suggest the 99.6% survival rate of covid backs this up.


The survival rate of COVID-19, if we include all ages and those who are asymptomatic, is an estimated 99.0%. That means if every American were to at some point become infected with COVID-19, that would be approximately 3-4 million deaths.



shamzie said:


> Grow up.


I would argue the person displaying a petulant and cavalier attitude towards the loss of human life because his do-no-wrong president and political party have made COVID-19 a political issue is the person who needs to grow up.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

djpannda said:


> oh ..so its on Par with the *Regular FLU vaccine* and other Vaccine already in use. Thank For letting US know the Corona Vaccine is safe!



No.  It's not.  Not at all.  It hasn't had decades of testing and refinement-and the degree of requiring medical care after getting the flu shot doesn't compare.


----------



## djpannda (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> No.  It's not.  Not at all.  It hasn't had decades of testing and refinement-and the degree of requiring medical care after getting the flu shot doesn't compare.


no.. no were right the first time... its side effects are similar to the FLU shot

Around 2%
 and Im pretty sure DR are telling people to report any symptoms at all and follow up .. because its a new shot... (I wouldn't be surprised if most were flu like symptoms that would of been dismissed if it was the Reg Flu shot but they are double checking because it was new...

THANK TABZER, you are right people are blowing the Vaccine scare out of proportion as it is just as safe as the FLU shot.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 22, 2020)

djpannda said:


> no.. no were right the first time... its side effects are similar to the FLU shot
> 
> Around 2%
> and Im pretty sure DR are telling people to report any symptoms at all and follow up .. because its a new shot... (I wouldn't be surprised if most were flu like symptoms that would of been dismissed if it was the Reg Flu shot but they are double checking because it was new...
> ...



"2 percent of people who get a flu shot will have fever as a side effect,"

The case of needing hospitalization is not common enough to register.

I'm pretty sure Doctors are being cautious about the COVID-19 vaccine, but at the same time everybody knows it was rushed and a estimated risk to do so.  That's why this is even a topic.


----------



## omgcat (Dec 22, 2020)

tabzer said:


> "2 percent of people who get a flu shot will have fever as a side effect,"
> 
> The case of needing hospitalization is not common enough to register.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Doctors are being cautious about the COVID-19 vaccine, but at the same time everybody knows it was rushed and a estimated risk to do so.  That's why this is even a topic.



how was it rushed when it was built on the back of 10+ years of SARS-COV research?

you forget that SARS and MERS happened in 2002, and 2012, are very closely related, and partially constructed vaccines were made for both by 2015.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 23, 2020)

I am pretty sure,someone can answer all these Questions for me please:

What are the side effects ?
What does vaccination mean for allergy sufferers ?
Is the vaccination genetically modified or not ?
Can a vaccinated person be a vector ?
Is the vaccination just so that the process is dampened ?
Am I exempt from all restrictions when I am vaccinated ?

Thank you.

By the Way,someone remember the "Thalidomide Story ?"


----------



## omgcat (Dec 23, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> I am pretty sure,someone can answer all these Questions for me please:
> 
> What are the side effects ?
> What does vaccination mean for allergy sufferers ?
> ...



i can tackle most of these.

*What are the side effects ?*

sore arm, mild fever, mild headaches, nothing worse than getting any other vaccine

*What does vaccination mean for allergy sufferers ?
*
you will be asked to wait at the Dr's or pharmacy for 10-30 post injection to prevent any allergic reaction. in the case of anaphylaxis, an epipen will be used.
*
Is the vaccination genetically modified or not ?*
no, full stop.

here is a video:

tldw: mrna (from the virus) is used so your body will make the spikes that the virus uses, but without the virus. your body will recognize the spikes and remember them for when the immune system sees them later. this allows a very strong immune response leading to asymptomatic infections instead of potentially deadly infections.
*
Can a vaccinated person be a vector ?*
yes, the vaccine keeps your from getting deadly complication of SARS-COV-2 (covid-19), but you will most likely be an asymptomatic vector. this is why large usage of the vaccine is important.

*Is the vaccination just so that the process is dampened ?*
Keeping the total number of hospitalized people low is the goal
*
Am I exempt from all restrictions when I am vaccinated ?*

you will still need to follow all standard social distancing and safety requirements. this is because you can still be infectious with no symptoms.

with respect to thalidomide, that is a full drug that had problems during early trimester pregnancies, unlike drugs, a vaccine is training your immune system, and has nothing in it that would cause systemic problems.

also as a note, phased clinical trials were created after the thalidomide incident, and both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have passed all 3 phases of their clinical trials.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 23, 2020)

omgcat said:


> i can tackle most of these.
> 
> *What are the side effects ?*
> 
> ...




Thank you for your Time and your very well discribed Explanations.
Very good.

I am pretty sure,this helps now unsure and anxious People to convince them for the Vaccination.



For me - still ->  Thank you,no Vaccination.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 23, 2020)

omgcat said:


> how was it rushed when it was built on the back of 10+ years of SARS-COV research?
> 
> you forget that SARS and MERS happened in 2002, and 2012, are very closely related, and partially constructed vaccines were made for both by 2015.



Hurried, rushed, expedited.  Everyone knows that there is legal and scientific framework to follow.  People also know how easy it is to forget to dot an i or cross a t when you are under the pressure of a clock.  Some question the reliability of the framework.  All vaccines and medicine is built on the back of 100's of years of scientific research.  Covid-19 vaccine is a new vaccine. 

Basically, people exist and people are skeptical.  It's unreasonable to think they shouldn't be.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Dec 23, 2020)

bodefuceta said:


> 50% is more than enough for herd immunity



Nonsense. 50% or more of Americans refused to wear masks, believed that herd immunity would wipe it out, and continued about their normal lives despite restrictions, mandates, lockdowns, etc. We all can see how well THAT worked out.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 23, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> I am pretty sure,someone can answer all these Questions for me please:
> 
> What are the side effects ?
> What does vaccination mean for allergy sufferers ?
> ...


Adding to the previous answer:

In Australia, and I would assume other countries too, you need to remain at the clinic for 15 minutes after being vaccinated regardless of whether you have a history of allergies. Those who suffer from allergic reactions should speak with their doctor before being vaccinated.

At this stage it seems some vaccinated people can still spread the virus, but they will spread less virus particles than an unvaccinated person. If the amount of virus particles they spread is lower than the infectious dose, whoever consumes these virus particles wont get sick. In the future we will likely use a nasal vaccine (a vaccine sprayed up one's nose) to stop vaccinated people spreading the virus.

The vaccine protects you from symptomatic covid. This means you can still catch the coronavirus but it wont make you sick. This is important because it protects you from organ damage and autoimmune disorders which some coronavirus patients still suffer from, even after recovering from the virus itself.

As always, the situation is constantly evolving so the answers to your questions may change as more data becomes available.


----------



## RandomUser (Dec 24, 2020)

x65943 said:


> The question arises tho, what are the unforeseen circumstances of contracting COVID itself? We also don't know.
> 
> There are pros and cons and you have to decide for yourself which you are more comfortable with.


That is actually a good question, which helped me understand why some people is taking the vaccination. I also understand those that don't want to take it right away as well. What a conundrum we have. At any rate though hopefully the benefit of vaccination will outweigh the risk and no harmful long term side effect will happen now or in the future after taking it.


----------



## bodefuceta (Dec 24, 2020)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Nonsense. 50% or more of Americans refused to wear masks, believed that herd immunity would wipe it out, and continued about their normal lives despite restrictions, mandates, lockdowns, etc. We all can see how well THAT worked out.


Then you must have some amazing evidence that the virus spread can't be described by a generalized logistic function or that the transmission rate is much higher than believed practically everywhere.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Dec 24, 2020)

bodefuceta said:


> Then you must have some amazing evidence that the virus spread can't be described by a generalized logistic function or that the transmission rate is much higher than believed practically everywhere.



So you must have some amazing evidence that the anti-maskers have developed herd immunity. Try again, bud. Or try to stay in the context of what was actually stated.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Just curious: when will we stop having to wear masks?


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Just curious: when will we stop having to wear masks?


Probably after a nasal vaccine is available and 70% of the population has taken it.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Just curious: when will we stop having to wear masks?


why do you care? you refuse to wear one anyway


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Just curious: when will we stop having to wear masks?



Just curious: when will we stop having to see your shit posts?


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 25, 2020)

i would have said no, but my mother wants to take it and if i dont do so too i wont be able to see her for some days (iirc it was 15 days), now i'm considering it, but probably wont


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> why do you care? you refuse to wear one anyway


Alabama law.


D34DL1N3R said:


> Just curious: when will we stop having to see your shit posts?


When I can go and live an actual life without being seen as contaminated.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Alabama law.
> 
> When I can go and live an actual life without being seen as contaminated.


We're in the middle of a deadly pandemic. Grow up and wear a mask.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> We're in the middle of a deadly pandemic. Grow up and wear a mask.


99% survival rate, with a vaccine already out. Don't tell me how to live my life.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> 99% survival rate, with a vaccine already out. Don't tell me how to live my life.


1% fatality rate is millions of deaths if allowed to spread, and it will be a long while before enough people have been vaccinated to change the daily death rate. Grow up and wear a mask. You've already admitted you don't care about the deaths of strangers.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> 99% survival rate, with a vaccine already out. Don't tell me how to live my life.


Then do accept to be treated like a little child. Because your argument is about as good as a little kids one.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

linuxares said:


> Then do accept to be treated like a little child. Because your argument is about as good as a little kids one.


Again, the vaccine is out. There is NO reason to wear a mask.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Again, the vaccine is out. There is NO reason to wear a mask.


and how many people do think have already taken the vaccine? have you?


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> and how many people do think have already taken the vaccine? have you?


Expecting everyone on the planet, or even 50% of the US, to take it, is unreasonable.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Expecting everyone on the planet, or even 50% of the US, to take it, is unreasonable.


is it? why?


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> is it? why?


There will always be people like me.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> There will always be people like me.


idiots who make it worse for everyone else?


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> idiots who make it worse for everyone else?


That's one way to put it. Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> That's one way to put it. Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve neither.


those willing to give up security for liberty have neither


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

You'll notice that one of us quoted our Founding Fathers, and the other twisted it into something false.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Again, the vaccine is out. There is NO reason to wear a mask.


Not enough people have been vaccinated to make a difference in daily deaths yet. Everybody should still be wearing masks. Listen to science and reason for once in your life.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Not enough people have been vaccinated to make a difference in daily deaths yet. Everybody should still be wearing masks. Listen to science and reason for once in your life.


Didn't you say earlier that we could reopen when a vaccine was out?


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> You'll notice that one of us quoted our Founding Fathers, and the other twisted it into something false.


youll notice (or in your case probably not) that you didnt even quote it correctly. and the correct way makes all the difference when you try to spin it into meaning something that it doesnt (not that i give a fuck about what anyone said over 250 years ago)


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> youll notice (or in your case probably not) that you didnt even quote it correctly. and the correct way makes all the difference when you try to spin it into meaning something that it doesnt (not that i give a fuck about what anyone said over 250 years ago)


The difference is that he said essential liberty. I don't know about you, but I'd say that the right to peaceably assemble or to have a job is essential.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> The difference is that he said essential liberty. I don't know about you, but I'd say that the right to peaceably assemble or to have a job is essential.


sure, and you can still do both while wearing a mask.
theres still more you omitted though


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> sure, and you can still do both while wearing a mask.
> theres still more you omitted though


Are you able to without one? There are no exceptions to the right to peaceably assemble.
Also the "little, temporary safety" part still applies.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Didn't you say earlier that we could reopen when a vaccine was out?


When enough people are vaccinated and the vaccines have had enough time to work, then things will be able to go back to normal, relatively speaking. There's a lot about the vaccine that can allow us to be very optimistic about the future. A few weeks after I'm vaccinated (I'm in 1B, so I'll be vaccinated in mid-January probably), I'm largely going to live my life like normal again. I will still wear a mask in public for a long while, both to set a good example and ease the worries of others.

It's time to grow up. Wear a mask. Socially distance. Get vaccinated. The more you do these things, the sooner we can go back to normal.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Are you able to without one? There are no exceptions to the right to peaceably assemble.
> Also the "little, temporary safety" part still applies.


wearing a mask doesnt stop you from doing either, no exception needed.
i wouldnt call having as little people as possible die "little, temporary safety", id call that pretty huge and permanent (from the virus)


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> When enough people are vaccinated and the vaccines have had enough time to work, then things will be able to go back to normal, relatively speaking. There's a lot about the vaccine that can allow us to be very optimistic about the future. A few weeks after I'm vaccinated (I'm in 1B, so I'll be vaccinated in mid-January probably), I'm largely going to live my life like normal again. I will still wear a mask in public for a long while, both to set a good example and ease the worries of others.
> 
> It's time to grow up. Wear a mask. Socially distance. Get vaccinated. The more you do these things, the sooner we can go back to normal.


Why would you wear a mask after you get vaccinated?


ut2k4master said:


> wearing a mask doesnt stop you from doing either, no exception needed.
> i wouldnt call having as little people as possible die "little, temporary safety", id call that pretty huge and permanent (from the virus)


Yup, just as I thought, these restrictions are permanent.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Yup, just as I thought, these restrictions are permanent.


no, the safety is


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> no, the safety is


All safety is temporary.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> All safety is temporary.


safety from something specific? no


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Why would you wear a mask after you get vaccinated?
> 
> Yup, just as I thought, these restrictions are permanent.


I explained why already. It takes a few weeks for the vaccine to be effective, it sets a good example (since nobody knows who is/isn't vaccinated), and it eases the worries of others who don't know who is/isn't vaccinated. It's not hard to understand.

Once enough people have been vaccinated, it won't be necessary to wear a mask.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> safety from something specific? no


I'd rather have dangerous freedom than peaceful slavery.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'd rather have dangerous freedom than peaceful slavery.


wearing a mask isnt slavery


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> wearing a mask isnt slavery


Anyone who wears one against their own will is a slave to the government. Throughout time, masks have been a symbol of control.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'd rather have dangerous freedom than peaceful slavery.


Mask mandates are not slavery. Nobody is persuaded by your hyperbolic shitposts.

Learn what slavery is.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Mask mandates are not slavery. Nobody is persuaded by your hyperbolic shitposts.
> 
> Learn what slavery is.


Tell that to this.




COVID restrictions tick off every single one except for 4 and 6.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Anyone who wears one against their own will is a slave to the government. Throughout time, masks have been a symbol of control.


is wearing clothes slavery? wearing a seatbelt? a helmet?


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Tell that to this.
> View attachment 239359


Abusive relationships are not slavery. Mask mandates are not symptomatic of an abusive relationship. Your post is embarrassingly irrelevant.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ut2k4master said:


> is wearing clothes slavery? wearing a seatbelt? a helmet?


I've asked him these questions. He won't answer you.


----------



## mammastuffing (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Tell that to this.
> View attachment 239359
> COVID restrictions tick off every single one except for 4 and 6.


That's fucking stupid. Are you seriously comparing yourself to someone who would be in a REAL abusive relationship. Fuck you, you don't know what abuse is.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Abusive relationships are not slavery. Mask mandates are not symptomatic of an abusive relationship. Your post is embarrassingly irrelevant.


FAX CHECK: Mask mandates alone tick off boxes 3, 7, and 9.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> FAX CHECK: Mask mandates alone tick off boxes 3, 7, and 9.


Mask mandates are necessary to prevent the spread of a deadly infectious disease. You cannot argue against them consistently without also arguing against speed limits, airport security, seatbelt mandates, laws against public nudity, etc.

It should go without saying, but a government is also not a person.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Mask mandates are necessary to prevent the spread of a deadly infectious disease. You cannot argue against them consistently without also arguing against speed limits, airport security, seatbelt mandates, laws against public nudity, etc.
> 
> It should go without saying, but a government is also not a person.


Read the bottom of the picture.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Read the bottom of the picture.


I don't give a shit about your shitty inapplicable meme.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Read the bottom of the picture.


i asked you a question


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> i asked you a question


I told you not to expect an answer.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> I told you not to expect an answer.


i know, im just pushing him


----------



## DaFixer (Dec 25, 2020)

Sure, I want to go out again to eat an enjoy life again.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> i asked you a question


And I shall answer.
Seatbelts protect the person wearing them. Masks don't.
Helmets protect the person wearing them. Masks don't.
If pants are no longer mandated, people will still wear them. Evidence: shirts and shoes.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> And I shall answer.
> Seatbelts protect the person wearing them. Masks don't.
> Helmets protect the person wearing them. Masks don't.
> If pants are no longer mandated, people will still wear them. Evidence: shirts and shoes.


masks do too, more importantly protecting others.
i didnt ask about pants, i asked about clothes in general


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

ut2k4master said:


> masks do too, more importantly protecting others.
> i didnt ask about pants, i asked about clothes in general


Strangers aren't my responsibility.
No other articles of clothing are mandated by law.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Strangers aren't my responsibility.
> No other articles of clothing are mandated by law.


they are when youre affecting their health and they are affecting yours.
what about topless women for example? either way there are enough people that would walk around naked if they could but even they arent calling it or having to wear masks "slavery". you live a pretty sheltered life even coming to a conclusion like that


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Strangers aren't my responsibility.
> No other articles of clothing are mandated by law.


Masks protect you and they protect others. Seatbelts only protect you. Masks protect against an infectious disease with a 1% fatality rate. Seatbelts protect against an occurrence that happens far less than 1% of 1% of the time.

The idea that you have no responsibility to protect the lives of strangers is why you need to grow up. You're a petulant child. The lives of others around you are indeed your responsibility.

Governments mandate the uses of helmets, seatbelts, and also clothes in general. The idea that masks are somehow different is absurd and demonstrably incorrect.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Masks protect you and they protect others. Seatbelts only protect you. Masks protect against an infectious disease with a 1% fatality rate. Seatbelts protect against an occurrence that happens far less than 1% of 1% of the time.
> 
> The idea that you have no responsibility to protect the lives of strangers is why you need to grow up. You're a petulant child. The lives of others around you are indeed your responsibility.
> 
> Governments mandate the uses of helmets, seatbelts, and also clothes in general. The idea that masks are somehow different is absurd and demonstrably incorrect.


Only one hazard is temporary. If you give up your freedom, the only way to get it back is through violence.


ut2k4master said:


> they are when youre affecting their health and they are affecting yours.
> what about topless women for example? either way there are enough people that would walk around naked if they could but even they arent calling it or having to wear masks "slavery". you live a pretty sheltered life even coming to a conclusion like that


I'm homeschooled. I don't get out much.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Only one hazard is temporary. If you give up your freedom, the only way to get it back is through violence.
> 
> I'm homeschooled. I don't get out much.


Whether or not one hazard is temporary is completely irrelevant. While it's here, we have things like mask mandates. When it's gone, we won't. Once again, your point is irrelevant.


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'm homeschooled. I don't get out much.


i can tell


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Whether or not one hazard is temporary is completely irrelevant. While it's here, we have things like mask mandates. When it's gone, we won't. Once again, your point is irrelevant.


I guarantee that long after COVID is gone, we'll still have mask mandates, and you'll defend them because "we don't want it to happen again".


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I guarantee that long after COVID is gone, we'll still have mask mandates, and you'll defend them because "we don't want it to happen again".


This is stunningly incorrect, and it's based on nothing. Stop making up nonsense and grow up.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

Lacius said:


> This is stunningly incorrect, and it's based on nothing. Stop making up nonsense and grow up.


I will hold you to this.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I will hold you to this.


You're free to hold me to this if you wear a mask, socially distance, get the vaccine when you can, and stop shitposting.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

By the way, the vaccine has been proven to have negative side effects related to male fertility.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Dec 25, 2020)

bodefuceta said:


> Falun dafa seeks nothing but (religious) freedom in china and are being actively persecuted


I think you misspelled their name, but I know who you mean. They turned out to be separatist forces who joins others (in China, esp. Taiwan, and foreign entities) to split China up into pieces.
Guess what the US government will do to separatist forces. They will crush them as seen in the civil war.
Around the same time there was actually a 20-100 times worse civil war raging in China, sparked by a religious revolution (of foreign origin). It is therefore no wonder that the Chinese people seek unity above all else and are less in favor of defending the idea of religious freedom.


----------



## omgcat (Dec 25, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> By the way, the vaccine has been proven to have negative side effects related to male fertility.



science based sources of gtfo. quit making up nonsense.


----------



## NeSchn (Dec 25, 2020)

Absolutely.
I work with elderly immunocompromised individuals, my job is to make sure they're healthy and safe.

My job was approved for Phase 1A, unfortunately, we have a couple positive cases in my family at the moment though. I wasn't in direct contact with them but I was in contact with a couple other family members who were in contact with the ones who tested positive. So I have to wait for their test results to come back before I can go back to work and get the vaccination. No symptoms on my end though and I'm hoping it stays that way.

Plus, since I'll be vaccinated, maybe I can finally go and visit my fiancee who I haven't seen in over a year thanks to all this. Fingers crossed.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 25, 2020)

omgcat said:


> science based sources of gtfo. quit making up nonsense.


https://www.local10.com/news/local/...ffects-of-covid-19-vaccine-on-male-fertility/
I take back what I said on it being confirmed, but still.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 25, 2020)

I don't like wearing facemasks but support mandatory facemasks.

Facemasks are uncomfortable and ugly and I suspect they do little to protect you against facial recognition software*.

But given they reduce the transmission of the coronavirus, everyone who does not have a medical exemption (people with respiratory conditions and rape victims) should wear one.

* Facial recognition software goes beyond just the face. The combination of your hair, clothes, skin tone, height and gait is probably enough to give you away.


UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.local10.com/news/local/...ffects-of-covid-19-vaccine-on-male-fertility/
> I take back what I said on it being confirmed, but still.


And the coronavirus itself is linked to erectile dysfunction. Text bolded by myself, the article you linked to says:


> “We’re evaluating the sperm parameters and quality before the vaccine and after the vaccine. From the biology of the COVID vaccine *we believe it shouldn’t affect fertility* but we want to do the study to make sure that man who want to have kids in the future to assure them it’s safe to go ahead and get the vaccine,” Ramasamy [lead researcher in the study] said.


Potential side-effects of vaccines should be monitored and included in risk-assessments. They are not an excuse to outright refuse to vaccinate.

You retracted your claim that the vaccine is proven to negatively affect male fertility, but your phrase "but still" indicates you are still clinging onto this argument, despite the article you linked to indicating it probably wont.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 26, 2020)

Now it will played over/with the "Church"/Religion"....

https://wien.orf.at/stories/3082394/


He said:
_*"Vaccine Refusers are like little Children and he has no understandings for them and their "conspiracy theories".*_

The only Answer I can give him is "F**k you !"

Please leave us alone.We also accept the people who wants the Vaccination.
But no,Refusers are treated like "Criminals" actual..

Everybody is free to decide (at the Moment") but People like him makes actually "Statements"which reminds painfully on the Third Reich....but of course,for GOD we are all EQUAL.....


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 26, 2020)

alexander1970 said:


> Now it will played over/with the "Church"/Religion"....
> 
> https://wien.orf.at/stories/3082394/
> 
> ...


You can cherry-pick whichever bible quotes or Christian values you want to support your opinion.

I would argue good Christians will behave in a way which respects other people's personal safety. This means good Christians socially distance, wash their hands and wear masks. When a vaccine which prevents them from transmitting the disease is available they will take it.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 26, 2020)

koohiiwonomimasu69 said:


> You can cherry-pick whichever bible quotes or Christian values you want to support your opinion.
> 
> I would argue good Christians will behave in a way which respects other people's personal safety. This means good Christians socially distance, wash their hands and wear masks. When a vaccine which prevents them from transmitting the disease is available they will take it.


"Good Christians don't think for themselves."


----------



## Hells Malice (Dec 26, 2020)

Obviously. You'd have to actually be a braindead idiot to think you know more than the hundreds if not thousands of trained professionals involved in producing this vaccine. Neither I, reddit nor twitter have the knowledge to even bother trying to be concerned about it.  

This isn't some mad scientist concoction where they just threw some shit in a barrel, super cooled it and went oh wow this shit actually works I was just trying to make a hangover cure. It's 100% understood in what it's made of and how it functions. It would be ignorant and stupid to speculate and dispute what is already well documented and known. At least unless you're actually trained in the field to do so and have factual reason to.

So yes since I am neither uneducated nor prone to having sexual relations with my own bloodline, I will take the vaccine the moment I am able to.


----------



## Viri (Dec 26, 2020)

I won't get the vaccine, then again, I don't get flu shots.

I do get all my other vaccines though.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 26, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> "Good Christians don't think for themselves."


You should try thinking for yourself.


UltraSUPRA said:


> I'm homeschooled. I don't get out much.


Instead of mindlessly believing whatever anti-vax shit your parents preach at home you should actually try thinking for yourself. Whatever you read here is just text, while your parents communicate with you at home using their body language and voice tonality in addition to words. By using more influential means of communicating with you they control your opinion to a far greater extent. Regardless of which side evidence and logic is in favour of, your parents are the ones who control your opinion. Words are wasted on you.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 26, 2020)

Viri said:


> I won't get the vaccine, then again, I don't get flu shots.
> 
> I do get all my other vaccines though.


You should get the COVID-19 vaccine when you can, and you should get a flu shot each year if you can.


----------



## Jacklack3 (Dec 26, 2020)

inb4 80% of people are like "Oh it's fine if _I_ don't take it, everyone else will and it'll be fine"


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 26, 2020)

koohiiwonomimasu69 said:


> You should try thinking for yourself.
> 
> Instead of mindlessly believing whatever anti-vax shit your parents preach at home you should actually try thinking for yourself. Whatever you read here is just text, while your parents communicate with you at home using their body language and voice tonality in addition to words. By using more influential means of communicating with you they control your opinion to a far greater extent. Regardless of which side evidence and logic is in favour of, your parents are the ones who control your opinion. Words are wasted on you.


My parents may hate masks, but they comply without question, and they support the vaccine. I believe it's good to question everything.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 26, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> My parents may hate masks, but they comply without question, and they support the vaccine. I believe it's good to question everything.


Skepticism is important, but skepticism doesn't just mean that you question everything. It also means you don't accept claims until you have good reason to believe them. You've posted a lot of unsubstantiated and ridiculous nonsense on this website that doesn't reflect a skeptical mindset. In fact, you seem to be the opposite of a skeptic. You accept or question things based purely on religious and/or political dogma, not by practicing skepticism.


----------



## The Catboy (Dec 26, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> so much for the vaccine the virus has mutated now into a new strain. if it gets out of Britain we are all fucked now


The fact that Covid mutated right when the vaccine became a thing is the most 2020 thing to happen this year.
(I know it mutated in September, I just wanted to make a doomer humor style joke)


UltraSUPRA said:


> I'm homeschooled. I don't get out much.


Once Covid starts to become less of an issue, you should really get out more.


----------



## IncredulousP (Dec 29, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Seatbelts only protect you.


Seatbelts protect everyone. People that don't wear seatbelts become 100+ lb torpedoes that can kill others.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 29, 2020)

I'm not sure exactly where I fit in the questionnaire.

I am avoiding taking the vaccine before 2022 and I've taken steps to be part of the minimal risk group by working from home and only going out twice per month since the start of 2020, but I will take it if necessary i.e. the infection rates in my area spike so high that I'm no longer part of the minimal risk or if I need to travel to a higher risk area.

That said, the RNA vaccines are on the very bottom of my list and as with most of Asia, I don't see the merit of giving the first few batches to the elderly outside of high-risk environments; if anything were to happen they would be the first to feel the adverse effects and are much frailer than the general population.

Our parents and children are the ones we live to protect, so putting them in the front line is a karmic no-no.

From a World perspective, at this phase and through to 2022, I would feel it more normal to give working-age adults the majority of the doses that are not for essential workers and high-risk environments, seeing that working-age adults are the ones that are travelling the most and have to interact with others the most, especially in low-income households.

I recognise each country and culture has their own views on this; this Comment is to explain why some would inject their working class first.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Dec 30, 2020)

the vaccine is useless now they took too long it's too late. now the virus has mutated it's been confirmed people who have been vaccinated have caught this new strain and are in ICU. SO it's going to start all over again next year. so prepare yourself this time


----------



## wartutor (Dec 30, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> the vaccine is useless now they took too long it's too late. now the virus has mutated it's been confirmed people who have been vaccinated have caught this new strain and are in ICU. SO it's going to start all over again next year. so prepare yourself this time


Im goin to say what i have heard many say on this site when people come on here claiming to have a hack on a new console/new hack for previous consoles...proof or gtfo lmao.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 30, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> the vaccine is useless now they took too long it's too late. now the virus has mutated it's been confirmed people who have been vaccinated have caught this new strain and are in ICU. SO it's going to start all over again next year. so prepare yourself this time


Vaccines can be updated in months to protect against new mutations. I would like to see evidence to support your claim.

Source: https://abc7news.com/health/scientists-monitoring-covid-19-variant-for-impact-on-vaccines/9188274/


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 30, 2020)

koohiiwonomimasu69 said:


> Vaccines can be updated in months to protect against new mutations. I would like to see evidence to support your claim.
> 
> Source: https://abc7news.com/health/scientists-monitoring-covid-19-variant-for-impact-on-vaccines/9188274/


"We have a vaccine!"
"Wait! There's a new strain that the vaccine doesn't work on!"

_several months later...
_
"We have a vaccine!"
"Wait! There's a new strain that the vaccine doesn't work on!"

_several months later...
_
"We have a vaccine!"
"Wait! There's a new strain that the vaccine doesn't work on!"

_several months later...
_
"We have a vaccine!"
"Wait! There's a new strain that the vaccine doesn't work on!"

Et cetera.


----------



## djpannda (Dec 30, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> "We have a vaccine!"
> "Wait! There's a new strain that the vaccine doesn't work on!"
> 
> _several months later...
> ...


oh.. glad you learned  how Viruses work... Scientist and Doctors has been dealing with that for years...


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 30, 2020)

https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/


----------



## NeSchn (Dec 30, 2020)

Just got my first shot of the vaccine today, so far so good, my arm is a very slightly sore and that's about it so far. I'm not a 5G tower feeding information to the government yet so there's that. 

Also, to the person who said that people got infected after getting the vaccine and wound up in the ICU. It's absolutely possible for that to happen, it depends on how far the person was into their vaccination process. Once you get the shot it doesn't mean you're immediately immune to it, your body needs to process it. Also, after the first shot you only develop about 50-60% immunity to the virus and that occurs about 1-2 weeks after the first shot, after the second shot your immunity goes up to around 95% from what their studies have found, again it takes around 1-2 weeks for the second shot to be fully affective as well.

So, going back, if those people got the virus after getting their vaccination then more then likely they weren't fully vaccinated yet or they were the unlucky 5% of people who unfortunately become infected even after vaccination. There's also no conclusion yet on whether the new mutations deem the vaccine useless but some early sources/studies are seeing that it's mainly just making itself more contagious. Also, viruses mutate all the time and there has been many many mutations of COVID-19 so far.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 30, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloth_face_mask#Effectiveness

Your site is an anonymous wordpress site.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 30, 2020)

The federal government is drastically slowing down the delivery and distribution of the vaccine. At the current rate it'd take ten years to get to herd immunity.  No bueno.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/29/covid-19-vaccine-distribution-slow-testing/

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2...-10-years-adequately-vaccinate-public-against


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 30, 2020)

Lacius said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloth_face_mask#Effectiveness
> 
> Your site is an anonymous wordpress site.


https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020...es-neutrality-is-dead-thanks-to-leftist-bias/


----------



## ut2k4master (Dec 30, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020...es-neutrality-is-dead-thanks-to-leftist-bias/


breitbart, trololol


----------



## Lacius (Dec 30, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020...es-neutrality-is-dead-thanks-to-leftist-bias/


Wikipedia is unbiased. Trump's Wikipedia page covers numerous scandals, for example, because Trump had numerous scandals. Breitbart, however, has a high right-wing bias. Your post is as ironic as it is hypocritical.

You are free to post whatever you want to Wikipedia as long as it's unbiased, supported by evidence, and the evidence is cited.

Most importantly, your post does nothing to argue against what I've said.


----------



## NeSchn (Dec 31, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020...es-neutrality-is-dead-thanks-to-leftist-bias/



Hey man, with all due respect, you're absolutely insufferable.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 31, 2020)

NeSchn said:


> Hey man, with all due respect, you're absolutely insufferable.


And?


----------



## notimp (Dec 31, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Wikipedia is unbiased. Trump's Wikipedia page covers numerous scandals, for example, because Trump had numerous scandals. Breitbart, however, has a high right-wing bias. Your post is as ironic as it is hypocritical.
> 
> You are free to post whatever you want to Wikipedia as long as it's unbiased, supported by evidence, and the evidence is cited.
> 
> Most importantly, your post does nothing to argue against what I've said.


Ehm, did you read the original article?

Political DC is wide awake on social medias censorship potential, after the Hunter Biden story got flattened within two days. You will hear more criticism in the days to come.


----------



## emigre (Dec 31, 2020)

Would get it. But obviously those most vulnerable get it first.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

notimp said:


> Ehm, did you read the original article?
> 
> Political DC is wide awake on social medias censorship potential, after the Hunter Biden story got flattened within two days. You will hear more criticism in the days to come.


I read the article. It was a lot of whining about injustices and biases on Wikipedia that aren't actually there.


----------



## notimp (Dec 31, 2020)

Lacius said:


> I read the article. It was a lot of whining about injustices and biases on Wikipedia that aren't actually there.


Objectively - maybe not (also mentioned in the article), but they arent there at all. As in, no mention.
Thats an issue.

Want to write the history book, that leaves out 50% of what happened?


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> And?


"Insufferable" is a quality one shouldn't want to be, dude. While we are talking about desirable and undesirable traits, we should also care about savings lives, even strangers' lives.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



notimp said:


> Objectively - maybe not (also mentioned in the article), but they arent there at all. As in, no mention.
> Thats an issue.
> 
> Want to write the history book, that leaves out 50% of what happened?


You need to be more specific, because I have no idea what you're taking issue with.

Wikipedia is the greatest compendium of information on the planet. Its standards of evidence are high, and it deals with objective facts, not opinions. It does not have widespread biases.


----------



## NewGBAXL (Dec 31, 2020)

I'm going to wait until one year after 75% of the US has had the vaccine.
Of course, that may never happen.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

NewGBAXL said:


> I'm going to wait until one year after 75% of the US has had the vaccine.
> Of course, that may never happen.


You should get the vaccine as soon as you're medically able to do so.


----------



## NewGBAXL (Dec 31, 2020)

I don't trust the vaccine.  What if it has long term side effects?  What if it doesn't work and then there is _another_ vaccine that I will be pressured to take?
Why dont everyone high risk take a two year vacation somewhere and everyone else get back to normal.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

NewGBAXL said:


> I don't trust the vaccine.  What if it has long term side effects?  What if it doesn't work and then there is _another_ vaccine that I will be pressured to take?


The vaccines have been proven to be safe and effective, and you won't be pressured to get another vaccine unless there ends up being a future strain that requires a future vaccine.



NewGBAXL said:


> Why dont everyone high risk take a two year vacation somewhere and everyone else get back to normal.


Don't be a moron.

Anybody can get COVID-19.
While rare, anyone can get seriously sick or die from COVID-19.
There's nowhere on Earth one can reasonably go to get away from COVID-19.
Traveling, not to mention putting high-risk people together somewhere, are bad ideas in the middle of a pandemic.
Wear a mask, socially distance, and get vaccinated. Don't be a petulant asshole.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Dec 31, 2020)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines have been proven to be safe and effective, and you won't be pressured to get another vaccine unless there ends up being a future strain that requires a future vaccine.


A safe and effective vaccine for a virus released less than a year after the virus was developed is medically unfeasible.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 31, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> A safe and effective vaccine for a virus released less than a year after the virus was developed is medically unfeasible.


It's not infeasible, but it's true there could be long ranging side effects we don't know about

But it's also true it could be completely safe

We won't know definitively for a while


----------



## realtimesave (Dec 31, 2020)

I am an essential worker so I probably have already got the virus by now and been long over it.  I doubt I'll be getting the vaccine, probably am allergic to it.


----------



## notimp (Dec 31, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Wikipedia is the greatest compendium of information on the planet. Its standards of evidence are high, and it deals with objective facts, not opinions. It does not have widespread biases.


In general, overall, or on specific articles.  Because thats a big claim to make.. 

The blogpost states, that any of the 'controversies' around Obamas terms are missing from his Wikipedia page, while all of the ones for Trump are present. You can contextualize them as 'widely speculative' or 'not objectifyable', but to simply leave them off the persons page? While on the next POTUS you have his page littered with them, I'd say warrants a discussion about method. 

Nothing against Wikipedia per se, most longterm maintainers are very devoted and at least trying to leave personal biases out. Sometimes..


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> A safe and effective vaccine for a virus released less than a year after the virus was developed is medically unfeasible.


I suggest you learn how RNA vaccines are developed. We've had it since January, since all you need is the genetic sequence of the virus to make it (which was released in mid-January).

Your ignorance doesn't give you an excuse to post nonsense. If you don't understand something, research it before typing what you feel is correct. You will come off as less of a smug idiot.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



x65943 said:


> It's not infeasible, but it's true there could be long ranging side effects we don't know about
> 
> But it's also true it could be completely safe
> 
> We won't know definitively for a while


The vaccines are demonstrably safe and effective. Nobody should put off getting the vaccine for fear that they aren't.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



notimp said:


> In general, overall, or on specific articles.  Because thats a big claim to make..
> 
> The blogpost states, that any of the 'controversies' around Obamas terms are missing from his Wikipedia page, while all of the ones for Trump are present. You can contextualize them as 'widely speculative' or 'not objectifyable', but to simply leave them off the persons page? While on the next POTUS you have his page littered with them, I'd say warrants a discussion about method.
> 
> Nothing against Wikipedia per se, most longterm maintainers are very devoted and at least trying to leave personal biases out. Sometimes..


If there were evidence for the missing Obama controversies, they would not be missing. It's not rocket science.

If you're looking for Obama controversies, here they are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Obama_administration_controversies

Respectfully, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## djpannda (Dec 31, 2020)

I really believe Americans gotten soft..
People have easily forgotten the Tragedies of the past.
POLIO had killed and crippled millions, a crude vaccine was created and Polio is "literally" WIPE from the Western world. NO more Iron lungs...
But now people are bitching now about taking a shot that is million times more advance. We can destroy Covid in just a few year and heck This tech can be used for countless other diseases.
But instead you decide its your RIGHT to die from Measles and and put everyone next to you at risk because you don't believe in science.


----------



## gamefan5 (Dec 31, 2020)

djpannda said:


> I really believe Americans gotten soft..
> People have easily forgotten the Tragedies of the past.
> POLIO had killed and crippled millions, a crude vaccine was created and Polio is "literally" WIPE from the Western world. NO more Iron lungs...
> But now people are bitching now about taking a shot that is million times more advance. We can destroy Covid in just a few year and heck This tech can be used for countless other diseases.
> But instead you decide its your RIGHT to die from Measles and and put everyone next to you at risk because you don't believe in science.


Insane, isn’t it?  It is further proof that when faced against a common threat, we won’t be able to support our species because a great deal of people have no sense of community.


----------



## RandomUser (Dec 31, 2020)

Direct from FDA themselves:
https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
Says Pfizer Vaccine is not approved. Wait, I thought it was approved?

Looking at the ingredient it is comprised of fats, salts, and sugar. So basically some minerals for your body, so should be safe enough. The only active ingredient would be the mRNA.
4-hydroxybutyl can cause cancer in mice, but were not a mouse so... should we still be okay?


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 31, 2020)

RandomUser said:


> Says Pfizer Vaccine is not approved. Wait, I thought it was approved?


It's authorised for emergency use. Joe Biden and Anthony Fauci have taken it publicly.


RandomUser said:


> 4-hydroxybutyl can cause cancer in mice, but were not a mouse so... should we still be okay?


The dose makes the poison. The amount of 4-hydroxybutyl in two doses of the vaccine is safely low.


----------



## Nerdtendo (Dec 31, 2020)

I'm not gonna get until like 5 years down the line. I get that it was based on SARS vaccines and yadda yadda, but one year seems awfully short for a testing period that is usually 10 times that amount. I'll just keep wearing my mask thank you.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

Nerdtendo said:


> I'm not gonna get until like 5 years down the line. I get that it was based on SARS vaccines and yadda yadda, but one year seems awfully short for a testing period that is usually 10 times that amount. I'll just keep wearing my mask thank you.


The vaccine has been demonstrated to be both safe and effective. They've been testing the safety and efficacy of the vaccines since January. You should get the vaccine as soon as you are able to, assuming you medically can. To wait five years is to arguably be petulant about it.


----------



## Deleted User (Dec 31, 2020)

Nerdtendo said:


> I'm not gonna get until like 5 years down the line. I get that it was based on SARS vaccines and yadda yadda, but one year seems awfully short for a testing period that is usually 10 times that amount. I'll just keep wearing my mask thank you.


The vaccines were developed in record time due to a number of reasons:

- Governments funded their development because SARS-CoV-2 (the virus commonly referred to as "the coronavirus" and which causes COVID-19) shuts down economies.

- Companies shortened the time between trials because the financial risk was lower.

- The virus spreads so rapidly, you can observe the efficacy of the vaccines more quickly.

- Manufacturing started while the vaccines were still being trialed.

- Regulatory agencies prioritised reviewing the data on the vaccines over other drugs.

- There is already research on other coronaviruses and mRNA vaccines.

- Research on SARS-CoV-2 was shared globally.

I can understand why some are scared to take coronavirus vaccines. I was too a few months ago. The vaccines were created in record time and in the case of mRNA vaccines using technology never before used in humans, combined with potential coercion to get vaccinated. But having done my research, I concluded the benefits vastly outweigh the risks. I would get vaccinated today if the vaccine was available to me.

Source: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-...-were-made-so-fast_n_5fd27425c5b68ce1718664e7


----------



## x65943 (Dec 31, 2020)

Lacius said:


> I suggest you learn how RNA vaccines are developed. We've had it since January, since all you need is the genetic sequence of the virus to make it (which was released in mid-January).
> 
> Your ignorance doesn't give you an excuse to post nonsense. If you don't understand something, research it before typing what you feel is correct. You will come off as less of a smug idiot.
> 
> ...



Safe in the period we have watched so far, it's new tech and we can't know if there are unforseen consequences


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

x65943 said:


> Safe in the period we have watched so far, it's new tech and we can't know if there are unforseen consequences


The preponderance of evidence suggests the vaccine is safe, both in the short term and in the long term.


----------



## x65943 (Dec 31, 2020)

Lacius said:


> The preponderance of evidence suggests the vaccine is safe, both in the short term and in the long term.


Obviously I have already gotten the vaccine so I have some level of trust in it

But the long term hasn't even happened yet so there is no way to know if it is safe in the long term, and you claiming to know what the long term will look like is dangerous

Obviously I am still in medical school, and won't be a doctor for 5 more months but I know enough to tell you no one can predict the future on this new tech and possible autoimmune or other side effects when we haven't been able to observe those who have received the vaccines for even 12 months - long term studies addressing long term side effects take decades to conduct


----------



## protivakid (Dec 31, 2020)

At 30 I've been on two different medications for periods of time that now have commercials saying "if you know someone who took ____ and now has cancer you may be entitled to $$". At one time both were also considered "safe". While I am hoping for the best I too will wait a while. I also work from home so it's not like I am going anywhere.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 31, 2020)

x65943 said:


> Obviously I have already gotten the vaccine so I have some level of trust in it
> 
> But the long term hasn't even happened yet so there is no way to know if it is safe in the long term, and you claiming to know what the long term will look like is dangerous
> 
> Obviously I am still in medical school, and won't be a doctor for 5 more months but I know enough to tell you no one can predict the future on this new tech and possible autoimmune or other side effects when we haven't been able to observe those who have received the vaccines for even 12 months - long term studies addressing long term side effects take decades to conduct


No one can predict the future, but it's not like we don't know anything about how the vaccine works, the ingredients, etc. There's no evidence to think there are long term issues, and there's evidence to think it's safe in both the short term and the long term.

My understanding is there was only one big issue (whether or not the RNA vaccine would actually provide an attack vector for the virus and make infection easier), but that ended up not being the case.


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> No one can predict the future, but it's not like we don't know anything about how the vaccine works, the ingredients, etc. There's no evidence to think there are long term issues, and there's evidence to think it's safe in both the short term and the long term.
> 
> My understanding is there was only one big issue (whether or not the RNA vaccine would actually provide an attack vector for the virus and make infection easier), but that ended up not being the case.


The biggest issue with any vaccination is that you are activating the immune system towards a specific protein and it can create antibodies towards self antigens and produce auto immune responses

Think guillain barre and the seasonal flu vaccine or specifically narcolepsy following the H1N1 vaccination program in europe

There can be long ranging autoimmune effects that are low in incidence but could ultimately affect thousands of people when you scale up a vaccine to the size of nations 

We are at a point where we are accepting that risk without knowing the true risk itself and hoping it's less than the real effects of death and morbidity from the virus itself

There is a reason the vaccines have received emergency use authorization and not FDA approval proper - because there are many unknowns 

But all that to say, we don't know it's safe - just that it's safe so far


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 1, 2021)

I dont have covid but I will Get one anyway.


----------



## linuxares (Jan 1, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> A safe and effective vaccine for a virus released less than a year after the virus was developed is medically unfeasible.


I already have answered this... educate yourself...


Also - https://globalnews.ca/news/7549449/who-pfizer-vaccine-emergency-use-approval/


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

First off, the testing for this virus is completely flawed. I know people that test positive one day and negative the next. Heck, look at Elon Musk... 4 tests at the same time and 2 were positive and 2 were negative. Also, without knowing the cycle thresh-hold, hard to really gauge how much of the virus is in your body.

And then you see stuff like this: https://www.wpbf.com/article/medica...crepancies-in-covid-19-death-tallies/33420066 (......."it was a slight ADMINISTRATIVE error...... yeah, that's the ticket!". And where there's smoke, there is fire. I'm positive that there are a LOT MORE of these "administrative" errors and they're being used to inflate death stats.

Then you have Cuomo putting COVID patients in nursing homes....and at that stage of the game, everyone knew that old people were extremely susceptible to COVID. Why that lunatic isn't up on murder charges is beyond me.

Videos of deserted hospitals that the lügenpresse claimed were "OVERWHELMED". Videos of empty testing lines that we were told we also "OVERWHELMED".

Nurses across the world making tiktok video after tiktok and then when CNN/MSNBC/FOX is around, they cry about being overworked?!?!?!? Yeah, overworked making silly tiktok videos.

Liberal politicians telling the sheep to stay home then they ignore their own orders and fly off to be with friends and family or attend dinner at a fancy restaurant WITHOUT WEARING A MASK (Gavin Newsom). These politicians know how super deadly COVID is.... why are they breaking their own quarantine rules, ignoring social distancing guidelines and mask rules???????????

Liberals telling you to say goodbye to your loved ones in funeral homes via Skype while they crammed thousands into churches to say goodbye to a felon (George Floyd).

Trumps rallies are "super spreader events" and BLM/fascists protests/looting sprees are folks just exercising their constitutional rights and don't post a risk of spreading COVID.

Even the trials for these vaccines was a joke (I don't think peer reviewed studies of these phase 3 trials has been released yet). They injected people with this mystery liquid and just said, "Hey, out of the 50,000 people we injected, only 50 got the virus, SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!111111111111111".

What they won't tell you is they never exposed these people to the virus. They just injected them and would make them take the flawed COVID test every now and then to see how many got the virus.

This is as silly as me saying I invented a vaccine that prevents you from getting hit with lightning. I inject 1,000,000 people with it and set them free in the world. If nobody gets struck by lightning, my vaccine is 100% effective.

A DNA altering, rushed to market, never before tried vaccine??? No thanks!

My body, my choice! Right liberals? RIGHT?????????


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

NightAceBlade said:


> I dont have covid but I will Get one anyway.


Vaccines are for preventing diseases, not curing them.


----------



## Nerdtendo (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be both safe and effective. They've been testing the safety and efficacy of the vaccines since January. You should get the vaccine as soon as you are able to, assuming you medically can. To wait five years is to arguably be petulant about it.


Alright. I don't trust the government or the doctors enough to trust that it is safe


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

x65943 said:


> The biggest issue with any vaccination is that you are activating the immune system towards a specific protein and it can create antibodies towards self antigens and produce auto immune responses
> 
> Think guillain barre and the seasonal flu vaccine or specifically narcolepsy following the H1N1 vaccination program in europe
> 
> ...


I mostly don't disagree with anything here, but a few things:

None of the examples you cited with regard to vaccine side effects make those vaccines more dangerous, statistically, than the thing being vaccinated against. Even if those side effects exited with the COVID-19 vaccines, for example, it still wouldn't be a reason not to get the COVID-19 vaccine, given the lethality and apparent long-term effects of COVID-19.
When we're talking about a one in a million side effect, for example, these are scenarios where safety testing often didn't cover even a million participants who received the vaccine, so that side effect didn't show up. Vaccine testing is a lot more thorough now than in the 1970s, for example. That includes COVID-19 vaccine safety testing.
The emergency use authorization has less to do with demonstrated safety and more to do with bureaucratic technicalities. In many countries, particularly in Europe, the vaccine met the safety standards for general use without emergency authorization.
Live attenuated virus vaccines, for example, are an entirely different animal than RNA vaccines, and the former carries inherent risks the latter lacks. In other words, there isn't much about RNA vaccines that could reasonably carry much risk.
I'm not arguing safety studies on the COVID-19 vaccines were infallible or that we know the future. However, the overwhelming preponderance of evidence suggests the vaccines are safe, both in the short term and the long term. The fact that a lot of time hasn't passed doesn't mean we don't know anything about the future. To use some analogies, we've never seen Pluto make an orbit around the sun, but we know how long it takes to do so. We have never seen someone who grew up with earbuds reach late adulthood, but we know what the likely long-term effects of earbud use are on hearing in late adulthood.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Nerdtendo said:


> Alright. I don't trust the government or the doctors enough to trust that it is safe


With all due respect and as inoffensively as possible, this is the kind of immature, conspiratorial attitude, with no basis in fact, that is going to lead to the continued spread of a deadly disease.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Vaccines are for preventing diseases, not curing them.


Yeah so I can prevent I said


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> First off, the testing for this virus is completely flawed. I know people that test positive one day and negative the next. Heck, look at Elon Musk... 4 tests at the same time and 2 were positive and 2 were negative. Also, without knowing the cycle thresh-hold, hard to really gauge how much of the virus is in your body.
> 
> And then you see stuff like this: https://www.wpbf.com/article/medica...crepancies-in-covid-19-death-tallies/33420066 (......."it was a slight ADMINISTRATIVE error...... yeah, that's the ticket!". And where there's smoke, there is fire. I'm positive that there are a LOT MORE of these "administrative" errors and they're being used to inflate death stats.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of conspiratorial bullshit to unpack here, and I definitely won't get to everything. A few notes:

There are limitations to COVID-19 testing, but that doesn't make them without value. The main limitation is a lot of people with the virus aren't being tested, since a person can have the disease without symptoms.
Approximately 336,000 Americans have died of COVID-19 as of this post, and there's no evidence this number has been significantly inflated. Even though the number might be somewhat smaller (or higher), it's a really good estimate.
Hospitalizations are and continue to be overwhelmed, and this is well-documented. The "where are the patients?" sentiment is conspiratorial nonsense, it requires willful ignorance to believe it, and it's frankly offensive.
Social distancing, mask wearing, and vaccines demonstrably help in reducing the spread of COVID-19.
You should look into how double blind studies work. It's not at all as you described. Compared to those who got a placebo, the vaccine is approximately 90-95% effective against contracting COVID-19. In addition, to see if a vaccine actually works in the real world, people with the vaccine or placebo need to be exposed in the real world. There's nothing problematic from a scientific point of view with how the vaccine trials were run. In fact, they were done extremely well.
Trump rallies are literal super spreader events because a.) You can demonstrate COVID-19 case increases left in Trump's wake, and b.) These events were largely anti-mask. The same things cannot be said about your examples of things you falsely believe should be considered superspreader events.
The vaccine does not alter your DNA. That's not how it works.
It is your body and your choice, but that doesn't free you from the repercussions of not getting vaccinated. For example, you might not be allowed to travel out of the country in the future unless you've been vaccinated. There are also the consequences of conscience with regard to putting yourself and others at risk for a potentially deadly disease by being a petulant brat and not being vaccinated, probably because the President thought it would be a good idea to make the pandemic a political issue.


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I mostly don't disagree with anything here, but a few things:
> 
> None of the examples you cited with regard to vaccine side effects make those vaccines more dangerous, statistically, than the thing being vaccinated against. Even if those side effects exited with the COVID-19 vaccines, for example, it still wouldn't be a reason not to get the COVID-19 vaccine, given the lethality and apparent long-term effects of COVID-19.
> When we're talking about a one in a million side effect, for example, these are scenarios where safety testing often didn't cover even a million participants who received the vaccine, so that side effect didn't show up. Vaccine testing is a lot more thorough now than in the 1970s, for example. That includes COVID-19 vaccine safety testing.
> ...


Like I said I have a level of trust here, but we don't know if it's safe long term or not.

And there has never been an RNA vaccine before so it remains to be seen what possible side effects there could be.

It's possible that taking vaccines back one step from protein to rna could produce more cell mediated auto immunity and we simply won't know if that will be the case or not until we watch and wait.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

x65943 said:


> Like I said I have a level of trust here, but we don't know if it's safe long term or not.
> 
> And there has never been an RNA vaccine before so it remains to be seen what possible side effects there could be.
> 
> It's possible that taking vaccines back one step from protein to rna could produce more cell mediated auto immunity and we simply won't know if that will be the case or not until we watch and wait.


You're right, but there is no evidence of any long term side effects, nor is there evidence of any mechanisms for long term side effects.

The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe, and anyone who can medically be vaccinated should be vaccinated as soon as possible.


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You're right, but there is no evidence of any long term side effects, nor is there evidence of any mechanisms for long term side effects.
> 
> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe, and anyone who can medically be vaccinated should be vaccinated as soon as possible.


As there is currently a shortage I say let whoever wants to be vaccinated get it and let the wary sit back

Once we have a surplus and people are still holding out then we can deal with the naysayers - I have a feeling tho that as things continue to go smoothly more people will want it


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

x65943 said:


> As there is currently a shortage I say let whoever wants to be vaccinated get it and let the wary sit back
> 
> Once we have a surplus and people are still holding out then we can deal with the naysayers - I have a feeling tho that as things continue to go smoothly more people will want it


If a person can get vaccinated, they should attempt to get vaccinated as soon as possible.

Unless a government or institution restricts the supply to certain groups and/or recommends only certain groups should be vaccinated for the time being, a person should attempt to get vaccinated.

It's irresponsible to say anybody should "sit back" when the vaccine is available to them. We want as many people vaccinated as possible, as soon as possible. Your advice could get people killed.


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If a person can get vaccinated, they should attempt to get vaccinated as soon as possible.
> 
> Unless a government or institution restricts the supply to certain groups and/or recommends only certain groups should be vaccinated for the time being, a person should attempt to get vaccinated.
> 
> It's irresponsible to say anybody should "sit back" when the vaccine is available to them. We want as many people vaccinated as possible, as soon as possible. Your advice could get people killed.


The government has restricted supplies to healthcare workers and the elderly/institutionalized and even then we don't have enough vaccines - so I don't think my advice is wrong

The main reason we have stockpiles despite this is poor planning and lack of funding for vaccination programs and staff


----------



## RandomUser (Jan 1, 2021)

koohiiwonomimasu69 said:


> It's authorised for emergency use. Joe Biden and Anthony Fauci have taken it publicly.
> 
> The dose makes the poison. The amount of 4-hydroxybutyl in two doses of the vaccine is safely low.


That makes sense for the 4-hydroxybutyl part.
As for authorized for emergency use, so in effect the vaccine is not known to be adequately safe, if it was then the FDA would have approve of it.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

x65943 said:


> The government has restricted supplies to healthcare workers and the elderly/institutionalized and even then we don't have enough vaccines - so I don't think my advice is wrong
> 
> The main reason we have stockpiles despite this is poor planning and lack of funding for vaccination programs and staff


My point is when a government considers it appropriate for Joe Schmo to get vaccinated, nothing is gained by him "waiting it out." He's not doing anyone a favor.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> My point is when a government considers it appropriate for Joe Schmo to get vaccinated, nothing is gained by him "waiting it out." He's not doing anyone a favor.


While I will get vaccinated as soon as possible and highly doubt the vaccine has currently unknown long-term-side effects, I also think x65943 is right.

More data will become available in the future and this data will be used to create more complete risk-assessments. If these risk-assessments find the vaccine to be safe (and they probably will), more people will decide to get vaccinated, especially if they see their family and friends getting vaccinated without any severe or long-term side-effects.

Without enough vaccines for everyone who wants one, vaccine hesitancy is not currently a bottleneck towards herd immunity (this is assuming vaccinated people are less-infectious or non-infectious). When it does become a bottleneck we will have more information to fight it with.

And idiots like UltraSUPRA are a lost cause. People like him need to be quarantined in a COVID-safe pram.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There's a lot of conspiratorial bullshit to unpack here, and I definitely won't get to everything. A few notes:
> 
> There are limitations to COVID-19 testing, but that doesn't make them without value. The main limitation is a lot of people with the virus aren't being tested, since a person can have the disease without symptoms.
> Approximately 336,000 Americans have died of COVID-19 as of this post, and there's no evidence this number has been significantly inflated. Even though the number might be somewhat smaller (or higher), it's a really good estimate.
> ...



Your reply has a lot of liberal sheep bullshit to unpack but I'll make an attempt........


When your test is flawed (see Elon Musk example), how can you base ANY data on it when it's proven to be bullshit? If Elon was the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET to show the test was not accurate, I'd concede this point but I personally know somebody who received a positive AND negative result and there are countless stories just like this all over. Therefore, the existing COVID test is NOT valid if it has such high false positive rates.
Since it's been proven that the tests for COVID are bogus, and deaths are being FALSELY attributed to COVID, why do you think the CDC stats carry any weight?
Hospitals are NOT being overwhelmed with COVID patients. Since Facebook/Google/Youtube don't like people pointing out this liberal lie people like you keep parroting (about swamped hospitals), they delete the videos one after another and ban accounts for people that keep posting them. If the hospitals ARE being overwhelmed, why are they deleting these videos that show otherwise and banning the people that upload them? "Busy" hospitals: https://www.bitchute.com/video/RDR0fd7mUERj/ and TikTok nurses that are soooooooooooo busy: https://www.bitchute.com/video/ttA5KDSjYU15/  And lets not forget the military medical ship that left New York without seeing a single COVID patient: https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/8517...n-most-without-treating-any-covid-19-patients
Lets ask Fauci what he thinks about wearing masks: 
I totally understand double blind studies/placebos.... but my lightning vaccine example still stands. I'm also still waiting on the peer review of Pfizer's phase 3 trials............. and waiting............ and waiting....
Trump rallies are super spreader events and the BLM/fascist mobs are NOT???????????? MUAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA my God man, are you for real? Get on YouTube sometime and watch the looters/rioters..... whoops, I mean.... peaceful protestors WITHOUT THEIR MASKS ON running around. Wow, you had to have been laughing your ass off when you typed that. You can NOT be serious!
Doesn't alter your DNA? HA! Lets hear it straight from the horse's mouth..... Dr. Bill Gates, vaccine expert:  skip to about 1:35 and start listening when he says, "you put instructions in the CODE"..... gee..... wonder what code he's talking about????????????
It will not end well for the person who forces a needle into my arm and injects me with mystery goo. I'm a student of history and governments are, HANDS DOWN, the largest mass murderers on the planet. I trust nothing they say or do. If governments are so concerned about peoples well being, how about they start banning things that kill more people than COVID 19? Lets start with banning cigarettes, alcohol, fatty foods, GMO laden foods, lack of access to clean water, lack of access to enough food, lack of shelter, and on and on and on. Then, after we help humanity with alllllllllllllllll those problems, THEN we can talk about a virus that's pretty much like a bad flu.

Like most liberals, you automatically assume that anyone with an opposing view supports "the right" or the orange man. Well, hate to break it to you but anyone that thinks their side is always right, all the time, is a sheep being led to the slaughter house. The left AND right are equally WORTHLESS and both sides lie through their teeth to stay in power.

COVID (and all the BS surroundiong it) is not about saving anyone from anything, it's part of the plan to destroy this country.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Your reply has a lot of liberal sheep bullshit to unpack but I'll make an attempt........
> 
> 
> When your test is flawed (see Elon Musk example), how can you base ANY data on it when it's proven to be bullshit? If Elon was the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET to show the test was not accurate, I'd concede this point but I personally know somebody who received a positive AND negative result and there are countless stories just like this all over. Therefore, the existing COVID test is NOT valid if it has such high false positive rates.
> ...



And as I just said, idiots like you need to be quarantined in a COVID-safe pram.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Your reply has a lot of liberal sheep bullshit to unpack but I'll make an attempt........
> 
> 
> When your test is flawed (see Elon Musk example), how can you base ANY data on it when it's proven to be bullshit? If Elon was the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET to show the test was not accurate, I'd concede this point but I personally know somebody who received a positive AND negative result and there are countless stories just like this all over. Therefore, the existing COVID test is NOT valid if it has such high false positive rates.
> ...



Antibody tests should not be used to diagnose an active infection. Keeping that in mind, COVID-19 tests are largely accurate.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

koohiiwonomimasu69 said:


> And as I just said, idiots like you need to be quarantined in a COVID-safe pram.



Great counter argument, so intelligent and thoughtful! Well played!!!

Like the other guy, you can't counter any of my points so you must stoop to this.

Hey, if the vaccine works, you have zero to worry about from people like me who don't want it.

On another note, I'll never understand people like you who want to push your beliefs on others and force everyone to conform to what YOU think is right. Hmmm...where have I seen this type of behavior before in history????????? Have you ever thought, for one second.... maybe you're being lied to about COVID? Do you think that is at all possible or do you always swallow whatever the government throws at you without question? Do you lack critical thinking skills by chance?

I promise you that if I'm on my deathbed with COVID, I won't beg anyone for help.


----------



## linuxares (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Your reply has a lot of liberal sheep bullshit to unpack but I'll make an attempt........
> 
> 
> When your test is flawed (see Elon Musk example), how can you base ANY data on it when it's proven to be bullshit? If Elon was the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET to show the test was not accurate, I'd concede this point but I personally know somebody who received a positive AND negative result and there are countless stories just like this all over. Therefore, the existing COVID test is NOT valid if it has such high false positive rates.
> ...



1) We don't know what tests he took, what and why they're flawed. Were it the same company? Different once?
2) No, some tests are bogus for sure, stop buying the chinese crap once.
3) My hospitals are overfilled sadly.
4) Test of different masks:

(If they didn't work. Why the fuck do Asians use them since way before? Also, doctors during surgery...)
5) They were already working on vaccines on SARS and MERS already. It wasn't that hard to shift to the new COVID-19 strain once the genome was decrypted.
7) Dr. Bill Gates? Gates isn't a Medical doctor. He is a freaking software developer, that has his own Foundation.
He also say "You put instructions in the code to make that shape". Aka PROGRAM THE Immun system to know about the virus, it doesn't change any of YOUR dna. Stop spreading false propaganda.....
8) YOUR government is. Not mine. Get your head out of your ass.


EDIT: How a mRNA vaccine works since people apparently can't google for 2 seconds -


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Antibody tests should not be used to diagnose an active infection. Keeping that in mind, COVID-19 tests are largely accurate.



Keep this in mind; the nasal testing that is taking place all over the world (that is being used to tell people if they are negative or positive for COVID and governments are using this data to force people to stay at home and destroying the economy and driving small companies out of business) is NOT accurate.


----------



## linuxares (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Keep this in mind; the nasal testing that is taking place all over the world (that is being used to tell people if they are negative or positive for COVID and governments are using this data to force people to stay at home and destroying the economy and driving small companies out of business) is NOT accurate.


OH NO THINK OF THE ECONOMY! Oh wait... the business owner died... oh well.
Argument like these are superflawed.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> 1) We don't know what tests he took, what and why they're flawed. Were it the same company? Different once?
> 2) No, some tests are bogus for sure, stop buying the chinese crap once.
> 3) My hospitals are overfilled sadly.
> 4) Test of different masks:
> ...





According to Elon it was a rapid antigen test with a nasal swab. Same nurse, same machine, 2 swabs from each nostril. All done at the same time. (He didn't come back 2 hours or 4 weeks later.)
Um, I don't think Elon used some back market Chinese testing machine. The person I personally know that tested positive and negative had her test done in a major city at a large hospital. Not some Chinese/back alley district.
My hospitals are empty. I have friends/family that work in several hospitals around me and they all say the same. "Few patients in the COVID wing but we have plenty of empty beds and ventilators standing by."
Masks are pointless. The COVID virus is too small to be filtered by these 3M masks.
Good for them. Doesn't change the facts that this is an untested vaccine technology. Pretty weird how CONgress was in a hurry to pass a law the shields these vaccine makers from lawsuits down the road when it's discovered that their mystery goop causes all sorts of nasty, debilitating problems.
???
Bill Gates isn't a medical doctor? SAY WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? Better let him know that!
Ring ring, school is in session children! Today's lesson.... DNA 101. When Dr. Gates talks about inserting code, yes, he's talking about telling your white blood cells (immune system) how to produce a protein (better pray to God this mystery protein won't harm you) that is unique to the COVID virus (CDC wording, not mine) so your body knows to kill it. And where are white blood cells produced? In your bone marrow. If you think changing the type of white blood cells your body produces won't have any impact on your DNA, and other parts of your body, you are delusional. But go ahead, keep trusting the medical experts like Dr. Gates and Anthony "masks are pointless, or wait a minute... maybe they aren't" Fauci.

PS. (8?) All the world governments are selling us down the river. Get YOUR head out of YOUR ass.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



linuxares said:


> OH NO THINK OF THE ECONOMY! Oh wait... the business owner died... oh well.
> Argument like these are superflawed.



That's a dick attitude. I know one business owner that lost everything due to the lockdown. Her family is financially ruined. I help them out as much as I can but it's a super sad situation they are in right now. Her husband died a few years ago and she provided all the money for her small family and now they are on the verge of being kicked out of their house and facing homelessness.

Another small business owner I know pays for the medicals bills of his aging parents and now that he was forced to shut down due to BS covid guidelines, he too is facing unimaginable financial hardship.

You really need to re-think your attitude. Not everyone is weathering the covid storm as well as you apparently.

EDIT: I have a feeling I know what you're going to say......" a few bankrupt people is nothing compared to saving the lives of 5,000 old people". My reply is.... let people make their own choices. Like the government does with keeping tobacco and alcohol legal. If you want to smoke or drink yourself to death, fine. Likewise, if you want to walk around without a mask or don't want to get the vaccine and risk catching COVID, fine.

Don't sensor any data. Let ALL information (GOOD AND BAD) flow freely and leave it up to the individual to chose what is best for themselves.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> According to Elon it was a rapid antigen test with a nasal swab. Same nurse, same machine, 2 swabs from each nostril. All done at the same time. (He didn't come back 2 hours or 4 weeks later.)
> Um, I don't think Elon used some back market Chinese testing machine. The person I personally know that tested positive and negative had her test done in a major city at a large hospital. Not some Chinese/back alley district.
> My hospitals are empty. I have friends/family that work in several hospitals around me and they all say the same. "Few patients in the COVID wing but we have plenty of empty beds and ventilators standing by."
> Masks are pointless. The COVID virus is too small to be filtered by these 3M masks.
> ...


Cool story bro.


----------



## Nerdtendo (Jan 1, 2021)

Everyone's a doctor now huh?


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

koohiiwonomimasu69 said:


> Cool story bro.



What a lovely little sheep you are! Also, say hello to my ignore list.... it's standing here, waiting for you with open arms............


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Respectfully, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.


Respectfully, you clearly dont have either.  So whats the standard? We list controversies for one President, but not for the other? All evidence for one president is missing? All evidence for one president is missing, so we hide it on a separate page, people will click on less often?

How about the incongruencies in tone? I mean, I might agree with it, but why is the Trump wiki page littered with qualifiers that make him sound like a bad president?

While Obamas is simply missing the criticism?

There is a critique on form thats possible here.

And before you get all flustered again, Wikipedia is not the unfaltering gift from god thats immune to criticism, void of controversy - and an an undisputed record of history, nor is your confidence in one source of information even close to healthy - and your attitude towards formal criticism dismissive - you resorted to a personal attacks to destract from that.

Only thing I'm saying is, dont employ double standards. And dont dismiss valid structural criticism as "whining". You might be wrong in this instance.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

Nerdtendo said:


> Everyone's a doctor now huh?



The lügenpresse seems to think Bill Gates is an infectious disease/vaccine expert. I guess the qualifications to be a doctor, according to lame stream media, is be filthy rich and cripple a bunch of children in India with the vaccines that you push. But don't feel bad for Dr. Gates. The millions of dollars he donates to advance his eugenics program is repaid with interested in the BILLIONS when these countries buy whatever vaccine him and his boys cooked up.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 1, 2021)

Welcome to year two of fifteen days to flatten the curve.


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> The lügenpresse seems to think Bill Gates is an infectious disease/vaccine expert. I guess the qualifications to be a doctor, according to lame stream media, is be filthy rich and cripple a bunch of children in India with the vaccines that you push. But don't feel bad for Dr. Gates. The millions of dollars he donates to advance his eugenics program is repaid with interested in the BILLIONS when these countries buy whatever vaccine him and his boys cooked up.


Just FYI, if you use the term 'Lügenpresse' you are part of the far right german political fringe, that had an issue with the German press not reporting on "issues with migrants" earlier.
Filthy rich. Dr. Gates. The plot thickens.

If thats your standard of debate, then maybe come to terms with the fact that you are throwing around empty accusations, based in the worst propaganda memes imaginable. The ones where you have to actually become part of the fringes, and a racist, and a science denier, and maybe even rectify yourself, that you are not filthy, or not only spreading lies, as a media outlet.

Basically dumb racists tried to topple the german state - he's a fan.

edit: And no, Bill Gates is not a doctor, but his foundation is the biggest financier of the WHO and in a position to dictate what health matter it should attend to. Polio - right about now?
How come that happened. (PS: Its not Billy boys fault...)

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



UltraSUPRA said:


> Welcome to year two of fifteen days to flatten the curve.


You are insufferable.

Happy new year to you as well.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> You are insufferable.


I do what I do. I'm not harming anybody.


----------



## Cachuchin1 (Jan 1, 2021)

What is freedom ?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And yea I will get vaccinated. Whichever comes knocking my door.


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I do what I do. I'm not harming anybody.


No, you are dragging the term OBEY in red along in your signature as a sign of critical rationalism, complaining that people dont ignore an epidemic more.. But apart from that... 

Your criticism will be much more popular, if not much changed at the end of this year, after the first few vaccination 'drives'. Everything has its time.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> Respectfully, you clearly dont have either.  So whats the standard? We list controversies for one President, but not for the other? All evidence for one president is missing? All evidence for one president is missing, so we hide it on a separate page, people will click on less often?
> 
> How about the incongruencies in tone? I mean, I might agree with it, but why is the Trump wiki page littered with qualifiers that make him sound like a bad president?
> 
> ...



Don't waste your time. I know a LOT of liberals and they are all 1,000% the same. They only see everything the 'right' does as pure evil. Liberals are complete hypocrites (just like the conservative side).

Here's some talking points to make them do mental gymanstics;


Point out Obama's drone killings of innocent women and children
When Christine Blasey Ford went after Kavanaugh, we got the #MeToo movement and #Believeallwomen
When Joe Biden's accuser, Tara Reade, went after him, the liberal hypocrites (Alyssa Milano and others) tore into Reade and said, "Well hey.... we need to hear both sides of the story."
Democrats started the KKK
Both parties to people losing their jobs and being crushed economically, "Well hey, you need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get a job and live off the money you should have been saving!"
Both parties to big business and wall street execs, "Having tough times? How much money do you need? Tell ya what, here's a blank check and you fill it out with whatever you need."
The Obama administration not putting a single bank exec in jail for the serious damage done to the economy with all those toxic bonds. Eric Holder, "Uh, these banking/investment people are just too big to jail."
Eric Holder again..... Operation Fast and Furious and his contempt of congress charge
Hillary Clinton and her, "Oh, I didn't INTEND to break federal law" excuse by having her own personal email server with state secrets on it

Hillary Clinton being told not to erase her server. Then turning around and instructing her IT guy to erase her server.

Clinton Crime family (Mena airport/CIA/Don Henry and Kevin Ives...... crazy rabbit whole for ya)

The FBI and big tech companies working 24x7 to paint the orange clown as some Russian asset (which turned out to be a complete fabrication)

Big tech covering up the fact that the Biden crime family is corrupt to the core with the discovery of the emails on Hunter's laptop
Joe Biden, ON CAMERA AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT, talking about how he got a prosecutor in Ukraine fired for digging into his and Hunter's illegal activities surrounding Burisma
But hey..... these are all just wild conspiracy theories. The big government would never EVER EVER lie to its' citizens and cover up dirty little things like this. We're a nation of laws darn it!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



notimp said:


> Just FYI, if you use the term 'Lügenpresse' you are part of the far right german political fringe, that had an issue with the German press not reporting on "issues with migrants" earlier.
> Filthy rich. Dr. Gates. The plot thickens.
> 
> If thats your standard of debate, then maybe come to terms with the fact that you are throwing around empty accusations, based in the worst propaganda memes imaginable. The ones where you have to actually become part of the fringes, and a racist, and a science denier, and maybe even rectify yourself, that you are not filthy, or not only spreading lies, as a media outlet.
> ...



I'll call a duck a duck when I see it. The worthless press we have now is like the worthless press the Germans had back in the lead up to WW2. Lügenpresse is 100% fitting. We no longer have journalists. What we have now is teleprompter reading, vapid puppets of the deep state. All the real investigative journalist have long since been pushed out of the system.

And calling me far right German political fringe, because I dare to use the word lügenpresse? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So Dr. Gates can be a vaccine expert because he has money and I can be a German far right fringe type because of a single word. Got it.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> Respectfully, you clearly dont have either.  So whats the standard? We list controversies for one President, but not for the other? All evidence for one president is missing? All evidence for one president is missing, so we hide it on a separate page, people will click on less often?
> 
> How about the incongruencies in tone? I mean, I might agree with it, but why is the Trump wiki page littered with qualifiers that make him sound like a bad president?
> 
> ...


I don't want to come off as flustered, so I'll just say to come back when you have a specific and verifiable instance of left-wing bias on Wikipedia.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



gene0915 said:


> Keep this in mind; the nasal testing that is taking place all over the world (that is being used to tell people if they are negative or positive for COVID and governments are using this data to force people to stay at home and destroying the economy and driving small companies out of business) is NOT accurate.


There are different kinds of nasal swab tests, and some are highly accurate.


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I don't want to come off as flustered, so I'll just say to come back when you have a specific and verifiable instance of left-wing bias on Wikipedia.


How do you verify bias?

I reread the Obama entry, and it reads like fluff piece, where his retraction from iraq and his reengagement are split over two terms so you dont catch on, what that meant too early, where the first sentiment of his second term is presented to be 'championing the LGBT crowd', and that ends with -- and everyone loved him internationally.

If that was in the Encyclopedia Britannica, I would have burned it... 

The Trump entry - on the other hand, doesnt read like that.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> How do you verify bias?
> 
> I reread the Obama entry, and it reads like fluff piece, where his retraction from iraq and his reengagement are split over two terms so you dont catch on, what that meant too early, where the first sentiment of his second term is presented to be 'championing the LGBT crowd', and that ends with -- and everyone loved him internationally.
> 
> ...


Respectfully, I don't care if you arbitrarily think the Obama article reads like a fluff piece. If you have something relevant to add anywhere, do it and cite your sources.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Jan 1, 2021)

Fuck all of you not getting vaccinated, may you die a brutal and gruesome death.


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Respectfully, I don't care if you arbitrarily think the Obama article reads like a fluff piece. If you have something relevant to add anywhere, do it and cite your sources.


The Obama entry reads like a fluff peace, the Trump entry reads like an attack pice, one of the Wikipedia founders criticized this as Wikipedia not adhering to objectivity and impartiality criteria anymore, and showing open signs of political bias. You tried to burry this, because the person bringing it up linked to it via breitbart (which still is a horribly partisan not even really news source).

I think thats noteworthy.

Also great dismissal of me trying to identify bias. "You be not interested in if it reads like a fluff piece."

There is a narrative arch to the Obama article. Showing him as the greatest of guys, from a humble beginning, responsible for 'oh so many changes' (so that you dont hone in on how much Obamacare actually changed), listing his military involvement last, splitting his actions in iraq over two terms, so you can champion him as the president, that ended the iraq war first, fluffing up his second term with 'he loved the LGBT crowd and the gays' - as the first context item, and ending with -- and he was so popular around the world, everyone agrees.

Thats fluff. With a narrative arch. Devoid of any criticism.

Trump entry doesnt read like that.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> The Obama entry reads like a fluff peace, the Trump entry reads like an attack pice, one of the Wikipedia founders criticized this as Wikipedia not adhering to objectivity and impartiality criteria anymore, and showing open signs of political bias. You tried to burry this, because the person bringing it up linked to it via breitbart (which still is a horribly partisan not even really news source).
> 
> I think thats noteworthy.
> 
> ...


First, repeating claims something reads like a fluff piece and that a creator of Wikipedia doesn't like something doesn't identify any specific and verifiable instances of bias. Interpreting Obama's page as fluff with a narrative about a guy who can do no wrong is nonspecific, subjective, unverifiable, and demonstrably wrong.

The reason you might notice some differences between the Trump article and the Obama article is that Trump was a relatively scandal-ridden president, and Obama was relatively scandal-free in comparison.

That all being said, this has gotten way off topic. Contact me on PM or start a new topic.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 1, 2021)

Ericthegreat said:


> Fuck all of you not getting vaccinated, may you die a brutal and gruesome death.


I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> First, repeating claims something reads like a fluff piece and that a creator of Wikipedia doesn't like something doesn't identify any specific and verifiable instances of bias. Interpreting Obama's page as fluff with a narrative about a guy who can do no wrong is nonspecific, subjective, unverifiable, and demonstrably wrong.


Hide the criticism in the 22nd paragraph, and no one might read it.

But its the structural criticism part that I'm more attached to. Dont just set it aside it with swift dismissal. Acknowledge that its there. Dont get defensive about it. Dont get high browed - because many of the Obama era scandals were manufactured (and they arguably were).

If you are creating something for posterity, and there is an obvious difference in how the last two presidents Wikipedia pages read, people are right to criticize it. Maybe less because of errors in content, but because of presentation.

Sometimes, that counts for more.

Dont overhaul the entire article - because somone like me said it, but certainly - meet the criticism with something other than dismissal on grounds of 'sounds like whining'. 

I'm a stickler for method here, not so much for 'if the content is factual or not' - it is, but presentation differs. Strongly.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

Ericthegreat said:


> Fuck all of you not getting vaccinated, may you die a brutal and gruesome death.



Fuck all of you sheep lining up for the COVID vaccine, may the poison in that mystery fluid make you sterile and lead to a brutal and gruesome death.

Ever wonder why virtually all liberal ran cities are complete shit holes? Ever wonder why we stopped hearing about BLM/fascist riots..... whoops, I meant....peaceful protests... in the weeks leading up to the election?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.


There is nothing tyrannical about mask mandates and getting vaccinated. Grow up, you petulant child, and start caring about the lives of the people around you.

Given your previous comments about how the lives of strangers literally don't matter, I know that's a big ask.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



gene0915 said:


> Fuck all of you sheep lining up for the COVID vaccine, may the poison in that mystery fluid make you sterile and lead to a brutal and gruesome death.
> 
> Ever wonder why virtually all liberal ran cities are complete shit holes? Ever wonder why we stopped hearing about BLM/fascist riots..... whoops, I meant....peaceful protests... in the weeks leading up to the election?
> 
> View attachment 240110


All of the evidence suggests the vaccine is safe. It is not poison. It does not cause sterility. It does not lead to a "brutal or gruesome death." It helps to prevent the spread of a deadly infectious disease.

If we're talking about sheep, I'd argue that posting unsubstantiated, conspiratorial bullshit that's contradicted by virtually all evidence and reason is what's sheepish. Posting these things demonstrates conspiratorial sheepish thinking, and it demonstrates a fundamental lack of critical thinking skills.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There is nothing tyrannical about mask mandates and getting vaccinated. Grow up, you petulant child, and start caring about the lives of the people around you.
> 
> Given your previous comments about how the lives of strangers literally don't matter, I know that's a big ask.
> 
> ...



What evidence? They injected folks and tested them later to see if they caught COVID. Again, my lightning vaccine example is the exact same. If they injected people with both doses and then exposed them directly (under controlled conditions) to COVID-19, THAT is how they could have tested the efficacy of the vaccine.

Also, wow, a never before tried/experimental vaccine that is a few weeks old and you already want to claim it's safe? The phrase, "long term effects" means nothing to you? And if the vaccine is so safe, why were laws passed to shield these pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits due to potential harm from the vaccine that might surface months/years down the road?

Do you realize that tossing around the 'conspiracy theorist' label shows how dumb you are and indicates you're a sheep parroting what the lügenpresse programs you to say? Google up 'Operation Northwoods'. Since you're like most liberals, ignorant to history and need spoon fed, that was a plan hatched by the Dept. of Defense/CIA to commit acts of terrorism on AMERICANS, mainly in Florida, so the Cuban government could be blamed. But hey.... crazy conspiracy theory, right??? They actually planned on KILLING innocent, American citizens, on our own soil, and blaming another country. Kennedy shit all over that plan and it was abandoned. After Kennedy was murdered, and people started looking closely at the activities of the CIA and their possible role in his assassination, the label of 'conspiracy theorists' entered the lexicon. The CIA used that label to discredit anyone that was asking uncomfortable questions.

Same for the word, 'regime'. When you see that word, you've been programmed to think..."evil foreign military killing their own citizens, corrupt to the core" and the lügenpresse uses it when describing the Syrian government, Iranian government, etc. But never mind the war crimes the USA has committed in country after country.

So you see, you really, REALLY need to re-think your world views and step outside your liberal bubble. Both parties are war parties, neither party gives two shits about you or your life.

Not to defend Hitler but did you know that Ford had factories in Nazi Germany and after the war, they successfully sued the US government for damages to their factories from the allied bombing?

It's a hard pill to swallow but everything you think you know about history is bullshit.

I bring up the Ford/Nazi example just as more evidence that you need to wake up to the reality around you. The government, big pharma, lügenpresse.... they all lie. They want/need people like you to be willfully ignorant so they can maintain power over you.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> What evidence? They injected folks and tested them later to see if they caught COVID. Again, my lightning vaccine example is the exact same. If they injected people with both doses and then exposed them directly (under controlled conditions) to COVID-19, THAT is how they could have tested the efficacy of the vaccine.
> 
> Also, wow, a never before tried/experimental vaccine that is a few weeks old and you already want to claim it's safe? The phrase, "long term effects" means nothing to you? And if the vaccine is so safe, why were laws passed to shield these pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits due to potential harm from the vaccine that might surface months/years down the road?
> 
> ...


Your lightning example demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of double blind studies. In addition, lightning strikes are very rare, and you would need a LOT of participants to have a good study for something that claims to prevent lightning strikes.


> This is as silly as me saying I invented a vaccine that prevents you from getting hit with lightning. I inject 1,000,000 people with it and set them free in the world. If nobody gets struck by lightning, my vaccine is 100% effective.


This is not a double blind study. If you came up with a vaccine for COVID-19, for example, gave 1,000,000 people the vaccine, gave 1,000,000 people the placebo, all participants are treated the same because not even the nurses know what's in each vial, and the ones with the vaccine were 95% less likely to get COVID-19 than the ones with the placebo, then you have a double blind study that demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccine.

TLDR, your lightning example demonstrates a misunderstanding of how double blind studies work, and lightning is poor example given the odds of being struck by lightning relative to the odds of being infected by COVID-19. You would benefit from developing a scientific literacy that would allow you to process these things.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Your lightning example demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of double blind studies. In addition, lightning strikes are very rare, and you would need a LOT of participants to have a good study for something that claims to prevent lightning strikes.
> 
> This is not a double blind study. If you came up with a vaccine for COVID-19, for example, gave 1,000,000 people the vaccine, gave 1,000,000 people the placebo, all participants are treated the same because not even the nurses know what's in each vial, and the ones with the vaccine were 95% less likely to get COVID-19 than the ones with the placebo, then you have a double blind study that demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccine.
> 
> TLDR, your lightning example demonstrates a misunderstanding of how double blind studies work, and lightning is poor example given the odds of being struck by lightning relative to the odds of being infected by COVID-19. You would benefit from developing a scientific literacy that would allow you to process these things.



Fine, lets split hairs.

I'll inject 1,000,000 people in group A with my vaccine that prevents cancer and I'll inject another 1,000,000 people with a placebo in group B.

After 1 year, if only 10,000 people get cancer from group A and 500 from group B, my mystery vaccine has a 99% success rate, START INJECTING IT!

Happy now?

Also, read up on Operation Northwoods yet? I'm positive the big government and CIA never ever ever attempted anything like that ever again.

Our government and big pharma always has our best interests at heart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> After 1 year, if only 10,000 people get cancer from group A and 500 from group B, my mystery vaccine has a 99% success rate, START INJECTING IT!


Check your math.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Check your math.


Leave it be natural selection will deal with him eventually.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

Ericthegreat said:


> Leave it be natural selection will deal with him eventually.


The problem is his choices are unlikely to affect only himself.


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I don't want to come off as flustered, so I'll just say to come back when you have a specific and verifiable instance of left-wing bias on Wikipedia..


Congress did override one of Trumps vetos - for the first time ever, getting this years military budget on track. Trump wanted to stall to retaliate against social media company influence. He wanted them to lose liability protection.

Happy?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...-veto-first-time-major-military-bill-n1252652

To understand that fully, the entire business model of social media companies rests on liability protection. They 'have to' protect themselves from legal risk to be able to onboard millions of users on 'free' (ad financed) business models. From that results their 'take it or leave it' nature and 'no base tier', no 'mandatory privacy protection options', 'users not owning their data', 'users having no say in the use of their data' ...


----------



## RandomUser (Jan 1, 2021)

People, you should decide for yourself if the vaccine is right for you when it becomes available. Only you should decide if it is worth the risk taking the vaccine or taking the risk of the virus itself.
You should not let the vaccine pushers force you to take the vaccine. Again you need to decide if it is worth it or not.
On that note, you should keep in mind that there are reasons why FDA has *not* approve the vaccine. Despite some people on here saying that evidence is saying that it is safe. Yes, be that it may, it does not include possible *new future* evidence that may or may not crop up in the future. Time will tell.
Happy new year to all.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> Congress did override one of Trumps vetos - for the first time ever, getting this years military budget on track. Trump wanted to stall to retaliate against social media company influence. He wanted them to lose liability protection.
> 
> Happy?
> 
> ...


Respectfully, what does this have to do with anything we were discussing?


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Respectfully, what does this have to do with anything we were discussing?


He was a threat, you dont like him in silicon valley cycles.

He understood personally what role social media played in gaining and retaining (effort) his presidency - thats not good. 

Granted, no direct threads to 'Wikipedia' specifically. But if you look at this structurally. If you maybe ask yourself, why certain biases are in play...


----------



## linuxares (Jan 1, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> People, you should decide for yourself if the vaccine is right for you when it becomes available. Only you should decide if it is worth the risk taking the vaccine or taking the risk of the virus itself.
> You should not let the vaccine pushers force you to take the vaccine. Again you need to decide if it is worth it or not.



I however think people that refuse to take this vaccine should be pentalized somehow. Getting some of their basic freedoms imped since COVID-19 is a deadly virus. Proven over and over again to be able to kill young as well as old

Also @x65943 isn't it FDA approved? Since it's being distributed in the US therefore in fact it's approved right? Even when they say "emergency".


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> People, you should decide for yourself if the vaccine is right for you when it becomes available. Only you should decide if it is worth the risk taking the vaccine or taking the risk of the virus itself.
> You should not let the vaccine pushers force you to take the vaccine. Again you need to decide if it is worth it or not.
> On that note, you should keep in mind that there are reasons why FDA has *not* approve the vaccine. Despite some people on here saying that evidence is saying that it is safe. Yes, be that it may, it does not include possible *new future* evidence that may or may not crop up in the future. Time will tell.
> Happy new year to all.


Nobody should be forced by law to get vaccinated, but that doesn't mean a person should be free of repercussions when choosing not to be vaccinated. For example, if a person wants to travel on an airplane, they might need to be vaccinated. There are also the obvious repercussions of one's moral conscience, considering it's pretty petulant for someone to willingly not he vaccinated when medically able to do so.


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I however think people that refuse to take this vaccine should be pentalized somehow. Getting some of their basic freedoms imped since COVID-19 is a deadly virus. Proven over and over again to be able to kill young as well as old
> 
> Also @x65943 isn't it FDA approved? Since it's being distributed in the US therefore in fact it's approved right? Even when they say "emergency".


Emergency use authorization is not the same as approval and does not have the same quality control and evidence based medicine requirements

If we were not in the middle of a pandemic the vaccines would have never been approved for any use whatsoever so soon

The fact remains that we are taking a calculated risk here


----------



## linuxares (Jan 1, 2021)

x65943 said:


> Emergency use authorization is not the same as approval and does not have the same quality control and evidence based medicine requirements
> 
> If we were not in the middle of a pandemic the vaccines would have never been approved for any use whatsoever so soon
> 
> The fact remains that we are taking a calculated risk here


I guess it takes a lot of time to approve a medicine?


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I guess it takes a lot of time to approve a medicine?


Right, typically they want at least a few years so they can monitor long term side effects and efficacy in different populations

Since we don't have time they bent the rules, which is fine and I agree we should bend the rules - but that's why they haven't got a regular FDA acceptance


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

x65943 said:


> Emergency use authorization is not the same as approval and does not have the same quality control and evidence based medicine requirements
> 
> If we were not in the middle of a pandemic the vaccines would have never been approved for any use whatsoever so soon
> 
> The fact remains that we are taking a calculated risk here


Everything you said is technically correct, but emergency use authorization is not to say the safety tests weren't rigorous. As I said in the past, emergency use authorization has less to do with whether or not we know the vaccine is safe and more to do with bureaucratic technicalities. Plenty of countries, particularly in Europe, have approved the vaccine without needing to do it through emergency use.

Most things in life are calculated risks, but that doesn't mean they aren't demonstrably safe.


----------



## RandomUser (Jan 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I however think people that refuse to take this vaccine should be pentalized somehow. Getting some of their basic freedoms imped since COVID-19 is a deadly virus. Proven over and over again to be able to kill young as well as old
> 
> Also @x65943 isn't it FDA approved? Since it's being distributed in the US therefore in fact it's approved right? Even when they say "emergency".


The FDA has not approve the vacine, I posted a link on this post. As for the penalty, yes, after the vaccine is approve from the FDA, not before.



Lacius said:


> Nobody should be forced by law to get vaccinated, but that doesn't mean a person should be free of repercussions when choosing not to be vaccinated. For example, if a person wants to travel on an airplane, they might need to be vaccinated. There are also the obvious repercussions of one's moral conscience, considering it's pretty petulant for someone to willingly not he vaccinated when medically able to do so.


If people still adhere to the CDC guidelines of wearing mask and social distance, then there shouldn't be much of a repercussions. It's not like they would be spreading the virus on purpose.
Also what about the people whom is concerned about the vaccine? Again if they follow the existing rules but want to wait for the FDA approval, I see nothing wrong with that. The pushers themselves from what I can see is also lacking in moral conscience themselves. If this isn't true, then they should be able to see both sides of the view.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> The FDA has not approve the vacine, I posted a link on this post. As for the penalty, yes, after the vaccine is approve from the FDA, not before.
> 
> 
> If people still adhere to the CDC guidelines of wearing mask and social distance, then there shouldn't be much of a repercussions. It's not like they would be spreading the virus on purpose.
> Also what about the people whom is concerned about the vaccine? Again if they follow the existing rules but want to wait for the FDA approval, I see nothing wrong with that. The pushers themselves from what I can see is also lacking in moral conscience themselves. If this isn't true, then they should be able to see both sides of the view.


The fact remains that the longer people delay getting vaccinated, the longer we will have to continue wearing masks and social distancing, and the more people who are going to get infected and die.


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Everything you said is technically correct, but emergency use authorization is not to say the safety tests weren't rigorous. As I said in the past, emergency use authorization has less to do with whether or not we know the vaccine is safe and more to do with bureaucratic technicalities. Plenty of countries, particularly in Europe, have approved the vaccine without needing to do it through emergency use.
> 
> Most things in life are calculated risks, but that doesn't mean they aren't demonstrably safe.


And as I said before we know it's safe in the short term but at best are making educated guesses about the long term


----------



## notimp (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The fact remains that the longer people delay getting vaccinated, the longer we will have to continue wearing masks and social distancing, and the more people who are going to get infected and die.


Currently the driver is availability.

Even israel is only at 10% of the population vaccinated - currently.

(And media is doing the 'have we allocated too little , or to late?" spiel allready...  (Nonsense question. allocation schemes were coordinated - at least to a point where you cant point your finger at israel and say - they just were more clever, why werent we? (They'll serve as a good base for data in the months to come.))


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> Currently the driver is availability.
> 
> Even israel is only at 10% of the population vaccinated - currently.


In the short term, the driver is availability. In the long term, the driver is petulance.


----------



## linuxares (Jan 1, 2021)

x65943 said:


> And as I said before we know it's safe in the short term but at best are making educated guesses about the long term


Well people could always wait for the AstraZeneca one. It's made on tradional methods of injecting a protein instead. Or that Russian one... Sputnik V


----------



## x65943 (Jan 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Well people could always wait for the AstraZeneca one. It's made on tradional methods of injecting a protein instead. Or that Russian one... Sputnik V


Right, however these also could have long ranging side effects we don't know about

All vaccines create an immune response which could potentially have cross reactivity with self antigens - which is where the danger lies


----------



## omgcat (Jan 1, 2021)

people have such a hang up about the "safety" of the vaccine, but had a raging hard-on about the hydroxy combo that has a known history of causing blindness and blowing out your kidneys. what the fuck is wrong with you scientifically illiterate idiots.

the severe side effect list of hydroxy is huge:


difficulty reading or seeing (words, letters, or parts of objects missing)
sensitivity to light
blurred vision
changes in vision
seeing light flashes or streaks
difficulty hearing
ringing in ears
muscle weakness
unusual bleeding or bruising
bleaching or loss of hair
mood or mental changes
irregular heartbeat
drowsiness
convulsions
decreased consciousness or loss of consciousness
thinking about harming or killing yourself
yet people in here were praising it like it would save the world.

the new vaccines have no recorded instances of blowing out kidneys, blindness, hair loss, cardiac arrest. the worst so far is anaphylaxis which is cured with an epipen or adrenaline, and some instances of bells palsy (1/23000000) which all instances resolved in less than 3 weeks.

on top of this, the covid vaccine side loaded research from SARS(2004) and MERS(2012). both of those viruses are super close to SARS-2-COV and as such the research overlaps massively.

this wasn't 1 year of research, it was closer to 1 year of a closely related strain on top of 8-14 years of previous research.

the same people claiming this isn't safe (conservative media) are the same people jumping in line to get the damn vaccine for a virus that was a "hoax".

https://www.ibtimes.sg/joni-ernst-rep-senator-called-hypocrite-boasting-about-getting-covid-19-vaccine-after-54376

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/rubio-criticized-for-getting-covid-19-vaccine-before-many-frontline-workers/

https://www.abccolumbia.com/2020/12...m-receives-covid-19-vaccine-over-the-weekend/

Learn the damn scientific method, then fucking read real scientific journals. god damn


----------



## RandomUser (Jan 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The fact remains that the longer people delay getting vaccinated, the longer we will have to continue wearing masks and social distancing, and the more people who are going to get infected and die.


Wait, are you saying that wearing mask and social distancing didn't work? If so, then why are we even following the rule?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 1, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> Wait, are you saying that wearing mask and social distancing didn't work? If so, then why are we even following the rule?


They work, but a vaccine works much better than masks, for example.

In addition, it's oddly the people who are anti-mask who are also anti-vaccine, even though the latter would end the former. It's like when people who are anti-choice are also anti-contraception.


----------



## RandomUser (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> They work, but a vaccine works much better than masks, for example.
> 
> In addition, it's oddly the people who are anti-mask who are also anti-vaccine, even though the latter would end the former. It's like when people who are anti-choice are also anti-contraception.


That makes sense. I really hope there is no unforeseen long term effect and does get approve by the FDA really soon, but that is probably wishful thinking on my part. If people sees that the FDA approve of it, then I can see even more people would be lining up for the vaccination.
Question, is the vaccination free or is it covered by health insurance?
EDIT:
Just saw your edit, it seems like it. But don't worry, I'm not anti-mask.
Also a little google search indicates that the vaccine should be free.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> That makes sense. I really hope there is no unforeseen long term effect and does get approve by the FDA really soon, but that is probably wishful thinking on my part. If people sees that the FDA approve of it, then I can see even more people would be lining up for the vaccination.
> Question, is the vaccination free or is it covered by health insurance?


Health insurance in the United States is required to cover preventative care under Obamacare, and that includes vaccinations.

The FDA's emergency authorization includes rigorous safety testing. A person should not wait to get vaccinated if they are able to get vaccinated.


----------



## RandomUser (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Health insurance in the United States is required to cover preventative care under Obamacare, and that includes vaccinations.
> 
> The FDA's emergency authorization includes rigorous safety testing. A person should not wait to get vaccinated if they are able to get vaccinated.


Yes emergency authorizations also means less data to work with and thus the reason for unapproval, the long term effect hasn't been tested as "a lot of time" is needed for that.
I do genuinely do see your points, however I also see others points as well. In a perfect world we wouldn't need vaccine because it would be virus free or we have a cure-all medicine that protects us from these outbreaks. However we don't live in a perfect world.


----------



## notimp (Jan 2, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> Yes emergency authorizations also means less data to work with and thus the reason for unapproval, the long term effect hasn't been tested as "a lot of time" is needed for that.
> I do genuinely do see your points, however I also see others points as well. In a perfect world we wouldn't need vaccine because it would be virus free or we have a cure-all medicine that protects us from these outbreaks. However we don't live in a perfect world.


Funnily enough, RNA vaccination might be a way to that 'perfect world'. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine

Can be adopted to any illness (theoretically), and that very fast.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> ... and Obama was relatively scandal-free in comparison.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Benghazi, Obamacare (you can keep your doctor, your premiums won't explode into the stratosphere, we won't waste your money by hiring a company to design healthcare.gov (THAT COST THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER 1.7 BILLION DOLLARS) that never created a website before), IRS being directed to target conservative groups, authorizing the Dept. of Justice to secretly collect the telephone records for reporters and editors of the AP, Keystone pipeline, illegal drone program that killed hundreds if not thousands of innocent men, women and children, PRISM, Fast and Furious... supporting a terrorist organization: https://www.yahoo.com/news/senate-investigation-finds-obama-admin-201648458.html

FBI spying: https://thehill.com/opinion/white-h...y-the-media-on-spying-by-obama-administration

So, could I get your response to:


The information on Hunter Biden's laptop that is really damning
Joe Biden, ON VIDEO, bragging about getting a Ukrainian prosecutor fired for looking into the corruption him and his son were involved with regarding Burisma
Speaking of Hunter Biden, care to offer an opinion as to why he (a guy with ZERO knowledge of the energy sector) was paid all that cash to sit on the board of Burisma? Maybe they liked his haircut I guess?!


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

https://www.latimes.com/california/...thcare-workers-refuse-covid-19-vaccine-access


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
> 
> Benghazi, Obamacare (you can keep your doctor, your premiums won't explode into the stratosphere, we won't waste your money by hiring a company to design healthcare.gov (THAT COST THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER 1.7 BILLION DOLLARS) that never created a website before), IRS being directed to target conservative groups, authorizing the Dept. of Justice to secretly collect the telephone records for reporters and editors of the AP, Keystone pipeline, illegal drone program that killed hundreds if not thousands of innocent men, women and children, PRISM, Fast and Furious... supporting a terrorist organization: https://www.yahoo.com/news/senate-investigation-finds-obama-admin-201648458.html
> 
> ...


The things you listed largely a.) Aren't scandals, and/or b.) Are covered on Obama's Wikipedia page.

I don't remember whom I responded to before about it, but I don't want to continue this conversation in this thread. Make or new thread or send me a PM, because we are off-topic.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The things you listed largely a.) Aren't scandals, and/or b.) Are covered on Obama's Wikipedia page.
> 
> I don't remember whom I responded to before about it, but I don't want to continue this conversation in this thread. Make or new thread or send me a PM, because we are off-topic.



Don't trust the government: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy..._100_confirmed_conspiracies_from_the_last_75/






I see you continue to dodge my questions about the Biden stuff. (Not shocked though as most liberal, when faced with overwhelming data that shows them the ignorance and hypocrisy of their views, always chose to bury their heads in the sand.)

To get back on topic, here's some more COVID news for you: (along with my link in the previous message) https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/4...y-given-regeneron-antibodies-instead-vaccines


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Don't trust the government: https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy..._100_confirmed_conspiracies_from_the_last_75/
> 
> View attachment 240158
> 
> ...


I'm not interested in taking each fake scandal one at a time, for reasons I already stated. I will say, for example, that Obamacare is both covered on the Wikipedia page, and it's not a scandal by any definition of the word. Your memes are wholly unconvincing.


----------



## RandomUser (Jan 2, 2021)

notimp said:


> Funnily enough, RNA vaccination might be a way to that 'perfect world'.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine
> 
> Can be adopted to any illness (theoretically), and that very fast.


Nanites probably gets you there faster or closer.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm not interested in taking each fake scandal one at a time, for reasons I already stated. I will say, for example, that Obamacare is both covered on the Wikipedia page, and it's not a scandal by any definition of the word. Your memes are wholly unconvincing.



I see you are STILL ignoring my questions about Hunter Biden's laptop/Bursima. Open wide, here comes some more inconvenient facts: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...siness_deals_with_the_spy_chief_of_china.html

C'mon, you liberals went all in on the 'Trump/Russia' fantasy yet here we have HARD EVIDENCE of the Biden crime syndicate on full display and surprise surprise, the liberal media doesn't mention it. Kind of weird eh? Almost like the entire lügenpresse is left leaning and are a bunch of hypocrites.

And why do you  keep repeating the lie about Obamacare not being a scandal and how it's covered on his wiki page? There are NO mentions of the failure of Obamacare on his wiki page, NONE! And newsflash, it WAS a scandal. He lied about your premiums not exploding, no mentions of the hundreds of thousands of doctors refusing patients with Obamacare because of the utterly broken payment system and when healthcare.gov launched, it fell on its' face at go time. ANOTHER company had to be brought in to fix it all to the tune of 1.7 BILLION dollars total! 1.7 BILLION DOLLARS!!! I can see why you don't think that's a scandal. You're a liberal and liberals refuse to accept reality.

Back to COVID news: https://www.the-sun.com/news/1996741/gp-refuse-covid-vaccine-before-christmas/

and

https://nypost.com/2021/01/01/alarm...h-care-workers-are-refusing-covid-19-vaccine/

Hmmm...I wonder why these highly trained medical professionals are refusing the COVID vaccine? Guess they are all just crazy conspiracy theorists eh? Or maybe they don't have time to take the vaccine with all the tiktok videos they're making. Or maybe, just maybe, they KNOW their hospitals aren't being overrun with COVID deaths and they don't want a mystery substance (with God knows what side effects down the road) shot into their body?

I know you'll dodge this pointed question as well but what's your thoughts on these medical folks refusing the vaccine? Only crazy paranoid types would refuse a completely safe vaccine, right? And if they're crazy and paranoid, maybe the governments should pull their medical license because we don't want crazy people working in the medical profession, right? I'm sure the government and big pharma has all of our best interests at heart, right?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I see you are STILL ignoring my questions about Hunter Biden's laptop/Bursima. Open wide, here comes some more inconvenient facts: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...siness_deals_with_the_spy_chief_of_china.html
> 
> C'mon, you liberals went all in on the 'Trump/Russia' fantasy yet here we have HARD EVIDENCE of the Biden crime syndicate on full display and surprise surprise, the liberal media doesn't mention it. Kind of weird eh? Almost like the entire lügenpresse is left leaning and are a bunch of hypocrites.
> 
> ...


There is no evidence of a Biden crime syndicate, and Obamacare was demonstrated to have actually slowed the increase in premium costs.

Health care professionals should be vaccinated if they can do so. There are a lot of reasons why some people don't want to be vaccinated, and they're mostly bad reasons. The reasons I'm seeing cited for the vast majority of vaccine refusals among healthcare workers, as well as the general public, are related to politics. That doesn't mean the vaccine isn't safe, and it doesn't mean people shouldn't be vaccinated as soon as they are physically able to do so.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There is no evidence of a Biden crime syndicate, and Obamacare was demonstrated to have actually slowed the increase in premium costs.
> 
> Health care professionals should be vaccinated if they can do so. There are a lot of reasons why some people don't want to be vaccinated, and they're mostly bad reasons. The reasons I'm seeing cited for the vast majority of vaccine refusals among healthcare workers, as well as the general public, are related to politics. That doesn't mean the vaccine isn't safe, and it doesn't mean people shouldn't be vaccinated as soon as they are physically able to do so.



No evidence of Biden corruption.... HAHAHAHA, my goodness that is rich! Biden, ON VIDEO, telling the press that he was withholding money from Ukraine until the prosecutor that was investigating Hunter's ties to Burisma was fired. You seriously OK with that? I can see now that you don't take any of this seriously and are just trolling me. Since it's now established that you're a complete hypocrite, we can focus on COVID.

Why don't you tell all these healthcare professionals (I'm assuming you know more than they do) that the COVID vaccine is safe and they should take it as soon as they are physically able to do so.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> No evidence of Biden corruption.... HAHAHAHA, my goodness that is rich! Biden, ON VIDEO, telling the press that he was withholding money from Ukraine until the prosecutor that was investigating Hunter's ties to Burisma was fired.


That's not what happened.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...raine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/



gene0915 said:


> Why don't you tell all these healthcare professionals (I'm assuming you know more than they do) that the COVID vaccine is safe and they should take it as soon as they are physically able to do so.


Happily.


----------



## 0x3000027E (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Obamacare was demonstrated to have actually slowed the increase in premium costs.


Sir, I realize this is off-topic, but _please_ realize that the Affordable Health Care Act (not sure 'Obamacare' is a serious term) was not only the establishment of a Health Insurance industry Trust, but also bloated with pork. I have had this discussion with you before; legislators that impose a health care system upon the public should also be required to live under the same healthcare system. This would have _certainly _prevented a healthcare legislation founded on corporate Trust.

A great experiment for US healthcare would be to see it run under a system of protected free enterprise, (something we have not tried yet). Initially, this would be a state-level implementation of such a system, and we would analyze the results over a period of time. The government's central role in this system would be to promote fair competition within the healthcare system, thereby lowering the cost and increasing the quality of care.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

0x3000027E said:


> Sir, I realize this is off-topic, but _please_ realize that the Affordable Health Care Act (not sure 'Obamacare' is a serious term) was not only the establishment of a Health Insurance industry Trust, but also bloated with pork. I have had this discussion with you before; legislators that impose a health care system upon the public should also be required to live under the same healthcare system. This would have _certainly _prevented a healthcare legislation founded on corporate Trust.


There's a lot about Obamacare I don't like, and the fact that we don't have Medicare for All is embarrassing, but my point was it did slow the increase in premiums, it did drastically increase coverage, and it wasn't scandalous. A person is free to dislike Obamacare, but that doesn't make it a scandal.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> That's not what happened.
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...raine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/
> 
> 
> Happily.



Here's my application to be a willfully, ignorant, hypocrite..... like you. (Let me know if I'm accepted into your club with the following declarations):


There is not a single bit of video evidence, ANYWHERE, that any BLM/fascist protest ever turned violent and resulted in a store being looted or burned to the ground.
There is not a single bit of evidence that any woman has ever accused a democratic leader of sexual misconduct.
Trump never said anything about grabbing a woman's vagina.
We didn't invade Iraq on bogus intelligence.
No vaccine has ever harmed a single person in recorded history.
The government would never ever engage in a smear campaign against someone to stifle the truth from getting out.
No elements within the government would ever plan a false flag terrorist event, on American soil, with the intention of blaming another country.
There is not a single bit of proof that an autonomous zone was set up in any US city by fascist thugs.
The majority of liberal/democratic cities are complete utopias.
Nobody is fleeing liberal/democratic cities, in droves, due to being taxed to death.
Snopes is 100% correct all the time.
The damning evidence on Hunter Biden's laptop simply doesn't exist because it's not mentioned in the media, or on The View.
What do you think? Can I join?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Here's my application to be a willfully, ignorant, hypocrite..... like you. (Let me know if I'm accepted into your club with the following declarations):
> 
> 
> There is not a single bit of video evidence, ANYWHERE, that any BLM/fascist protest ever turned violent and resulted in a store being looted or burned to the ground.
> ...


Am I supposed to disagree with the things on your list, or am I supposed to agree with the things on the list? It's kind of a mess. That was a rhetorical question though. Please get back on topic, make another thread, or send me a PM.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Am I supposed to disagree with the things on your list, or am I supposed to agree with the things on the list? It's kind of a mess. That was a rhetorical question though. Please get back on topic, make another thread, or send me a PM.



I see you lack basic reading skills. I want to align my way of thinking with yours. Do you agree with my statements? Can I be a liberal hypocrite like you?

Looks like the UK is throwing the dice with their sheep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/health/coronavirus-vaccines-britain.html


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I see you lack basic reading skills. I want to align my way of thinking with yours. Do you agree with my statements? Can I be a liberal hypocrite like you?
> 
> Looks like the UK is throwing the dice with their sheep: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/health/coronavirus-vaccines-britain.html


I don't think I agree with a single one of your statements as worded.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I don't think I agree with a single one of your statements as worded.



Looks like somebody (you) is going to get kicked out of the liberal clubhouse for not towing the line!!!!

You know, I'm not sure why anyone is even talking about Trump. After Obama left the White House, we rolled right to the Biden administration. Trump never sat in the oval office! He was too busy hanging out with known pedophile Jeffery Epstein. I mean, Bill Clinton was NEVER photographed with that pedophile like the orange clown was and even if a picture of Bill Clinton surfaces, showing him on a plane with Epstein, it's just Russian propaganda, right?

Looks like these parents are just being silly for refusing to sign the COVID testing form: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...students-from-in-person-class-over-test-forms

....I mean, not like ANY COVID testing kit was EVER infected with the virus. That's never happened, if it did, snopes and our even truthful press, would tell us!

Do you know JP by chance?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Looks like somebody (you) is going to get kicked out of the liberal clubhouse for not towing the line!!!!
> 
> You know, I'm not sure why anyone is even talking about Trump. After Obama left the White House, we rolled right to the Biden administration. Trump never sat in the oval office! He was too busy hanging out with known pedophile Jeffery Epstein. I mean, Bill Clinton was NEVER photographed with that pedophile like the orange clown was and even if a picture of Bill Clinton surfaces, showing him on a plane with Epstein, it's just Russian propaganda, right?
> 
> ...



I think most liberals would disagree with your strawman arguments, and that's what makes them strawman arguments. I'm also unsure what you intend to contribute to the discussion by spewing hyperbolic strawman arguments that nobody believes.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I think most liberals would disagree with your strawman arguments, and that's what makes them strawman arguments. I'm also unsure what you intend to contribute to the discussion by spewing hyperbolic strawman arguments that nobody believes.



More fake news: https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/h...-after-receiving-pfizer-vaccine-amid-frenzied

They didn't receive the 2nd dose, that would have 100% prevented them from getting COVID!

I wish places would stop publishing these BS COVID articles!!!!!!!!!!!11111111


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> More fake news: https://www.zerohedge.com/medical/h...-after-receiving-pfizer-vaccine-amid-frenzied
> 
> They didn't receive the 2nd dose, that would have 100% prevented them from getting COVID!
> 
> I wish places would stop publishing these BS COVID articles!!!!!!!!!!!11111111


Both of the major vaccines require two doses, and the second dose comes approximately three weeks after the first dose. While there is some protection 12 days after the first dose, getting both doses is the only proven way to get the 95% protection shown in Phase 3 trials.

Forgive me if I didn't respond directly to whatever your point was. Your points are becoming less clear as time goes on as you attempt to, I think, parody strawman arguments.


----------



## mrgone (Jan 2, 2021)

i'll probably get the biontech mRNA vaccine

here's a great writeup explaining the vaccine
https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/

it's a great piece of bio-hacking


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Both of the major vaccines require two doses, and the second dose comes approximately three weeks after the first dose. While there is some protection 12 days after the first dose, getting both doses is the only proven way to get the 95% protection shown in Phase 3 trials.
> 
> Forgive me if I didn't respond directly to whatever your point was. Your points are becoming less clear as time goes on as you attempt to, I think, parody strawman arguments.



I hope Fauci makes this vaccine mandatory for everyone! Us logic ignoring, hypocritical liberals need to stick together and push these anti-vax lunatics off a cliff!!!!!11111111111

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...d-vaccines-are-table-especially-travel-school


----------



## Lacius (Jan 2, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I hope Fauci makes this vaccine mandatory for everyone! Us logic ignoring, hypocritical liberals need to stick together and push these anti-vax lunatics off a cliff!!!!!11111111111
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...d-vaccines-are-table-especially-travel-school


We've had mandatory vaccinations in schools for decades, and you don't have an unrestricted right to air travel. You can ask the TSA about that last one.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We've had mandatory vaccinations in schools for decades, and you don't have an unrestricted right to air travel. You can ask the TSA about that last one.



In my state, when my children started school, I was told that we needed to provide their vaccination cards. I never produced them because my children were never vaccinated and none were ever barred entry soooooo.... (I even objected to the vitamin K shot at birth)

As for the TSA, pass on that as well. There is nowhere I want to fly to so badly that it's worth watching my family getting groped by low paid, power tripping flunkies.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> In my state, when my children started school, I was told that we needed to provide their vaccination cards. I never produced them because my children were never vaccinated and none were ever barred entry soooooo.... (I even objected to the vitamin K shot at birth)
> 
> As for the TSA, pass on that as well. There is nowhere I want to fly to so badly that it's worth watching my family getting groped by low paid, power tripping flunkies.
> 
> View attachment 240239


Your anecdote does nothing but demonstrate your petulance. It doesn't address my point.

I would respond to examples of "liberal hypocrisy" if any were provided, except I've given you long enough to do that since I first started I don't want to go off topic. Make a new thread or send me a PM if you want to talk about anything unrelated to the vaccine.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Your anecdote does nothing but demonstrate your petulance. It doesn't address my point.
> 
> I would respond to examples of "liberal hypocrisy" if any were provided, except I've given you long enough to do that since I first started I don't want to go off topic. Make a new thread or send me a PM if you want to talk about anything unrelated to the vaccine.



I got a new avatar picture for you and your liberal friends:






I've provided you with PLENTY of examples of liberal hypocrisy but you chose to you know..... (see picture)

Like liberals, conservatives have never committed any acts of hypocrisy either, right?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I got a new avatar picture for you and your liberal friends:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, this isn't an image board. Second, check your PM if you want to continue this off-topic conversation. You haven't actually provided any examples of "liberal hypocrisy."


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> First, this isn't an image board. Second, check your PM if you want to continue this off-topic conversation. You haven't actually provided any examples of "liberal hypocrisy."







Tell you what, lets go a different route. For every ONE example of conservatives being hypocrites that you can provide, I'll counter with 25 examples of liberals being hypocrites. But you have to go first. This will help me understand what you consider hypocrisy.

On the COVID front: https://www.zerohedge.com/political...ust-illegal-gathering-family-during-new-years Cops should have shot everyone in that house in the head to protect them from COVID!!!!!!!111111


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> View attachment 240251
> 
> Tell you what, lets go a different route. For every ONE example of conservatives being hypocrites that you can provide, I'll counter with 25 examples of liberals being hypocrites. But you have to go first. This will help me understand what you consider hypocrisy.
> 
> On the COVID front: https://www.zerohedge.com/political...ust-illegal-gathering-family-during-new-years Cops should have shot everyone in that house in the head to protect them from COVID!!!!!!!111111


Respond over PM.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Respond over PM.



Let's do at least ONE round in public, then I'll gladly switch over to PM. So come on, give me ONE, just ONE example of conservative hypocrisy. JUST ONE!


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Let's do at least ONE round in public, then I'll gladly switch over to PM. So come on, give me ONE, just ONE example of conservative hypocrisy. JUST ONE!


The public can already see clearly that, instead of keeping this thread on topic per my wishes or even providing an example of alleged liberal hypocrisy that you brought up, you are instead deflecting and engaging in baiting tactics, and you refuse to engage over PM. You've also been shown numerous times to be mistaken about basic issues of fact, such as what a double blind study entails.

You brought up liberal hypocrisy, so you can provide your best example over PM, and we can talk about it there. Anything else is unlikely to garner a response from me.

I don't want to derail this thread more than it has already been derailed, and this is the last time I'm going to say so. You are the one who made claims about liberal hypocrisy, so you can put up or shut up. I didn't make baseless claims about "conservative hypocrisy," so your response that I should be the one providing examples of anything right now is absurd. It would be like me hypothetically calling you a racist, and then when you ask me for evidence of you being a racist, I instead challenge you to come up with evidence that I am a racist (even though you never made the claim). It's irrelevant to the matter you brought up, and I don't tend to let people get away with blatant deflections.

I await your PM (or a new thread).


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The public can already see clearly that, instead of keeping this thread on topic per my wishes or even providing an example of alleged liberal hypocrisy that you brought up, you are instead deflecting and engaging in baiting tactics, and you refuse to engage over PM. You've also been shown numerous times to be mistaken about basic issues of fact, such as what a double blind study entails.
> 
> You brought up liberal hypocrisy, so you can provide your best example over PM, and we can talk about it there. Anything else is unlikely to garner a response from me.
> 
> ...



Exactly what I thought. You and I both know you were never ever going to bother providing a single example of a conservative being a hypocrite. We both know the real reason you won't even dare try it. I can almost guarantee you won't.

You're not as clever as you think.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Exactly what I thought. You and I both know you were never ever going to bother providing a single example of a conservative being a hypocrite. We both know the real reason you won't even dare try it. I can almost guarantee you won't.
> 
> You're not as clever as you think.


I'm not sure why you expect me get even more off topic by providing evidence for a claim I didn't make nor bring up. That would distract from your task at hand.

Please see my claims of racism analogy. I'm exactly as clever as I think.


----------



## weatMod (Jan 3, 2021)

Bladexdsl said:


> the pfizer one has a side effect though: it gives you a permanent hard on


actually it makes you permanently impotent 
 then you have to  go on their  other product  ,viagra for life


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm not sure why you expect me get even more off topic by providing evidence for a claim I didn't make nor bring up. That would distract from your task at hand.
> 
> Please see my claims of racism analogy. I'm exactly as clever as I think.



See my previous reply. We both know the real reason you can't/won't type out a SINGLE.... ONE. SINGLE. example of conservative hypocrisy right here in this thread. You know exactly how the conversation will flow and you know you're completely beat.

Check. Mate.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> See my previous reply. We both know the real reason you can't/won't type out a SINGLE.... ONE. SINGLE. example of conservative hypocrisy right here in this thread. You know exactly how the conversation will flow and you know you're completely beat.
> 
> Check. Mate.


What a fuckin' d-bag, lmao.  It's not like you'd accept any example of conservative hypocrisy as valid, this thread and so many others on the politics forum are already littered with them.  Just off the top of my head: Trump added more than eight trillion to the national debt in a single term, which is completely hypocritical for any would-be "conservative."  The party has become the antithesis of the term in practically every sense.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> See my previous reply. We both know the real reason you can't/won't type out a SINGLE.... ONE. SINGLE. example of conservative hypocrisy right here in this thread. You know exactly how the conversation will flow and you know you're completely beat.
> 
> Check. Mate.



You: "There are so many examples of liberal hypocrisy."
Me: "Okay, provide one, but let's please do it over PM because it's off-topic."
You: "No, I won't. Instead, you provide me with an example of conservative hypocrisy, despite you not bringing it up, and I don't care if we are derailing the thread."
I don't think the above characterization of our conversation is unfair, and I don't think anybody would say, by any objective measure, that you've done anything to checkmate anyone.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You: "There are so many examples of liberal hypocrisy."
> Me: "Okay, provide one, but let's please do it over PM because it's off-topic."
> You: "No, I won't. Instead, you provide me with an example of conservative hypocrisy, despite you not bringing it up, and I don't care if we are derailing the thread."
> 
> I don't think the above characterization of our conversation is unfair, and I don't think anybody would say, by any objective measure, that you've done anything to checkmate anyone.



Hahahaha. Come on.... one.....just ONE example. Still waiting.

Xzi, no kibitzing please.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Hahahaha. Come on.... one.....just ONE example. Still waiting.
> 
> Xzi, no kibitzing please.


I'm not going to be baited into defending a statement I never made because you can't defend a statement you did make. Since I'm repeating myself, that likely means we are bordering on what the moderators would call bickering territory. Unless you want our off-topic posts to continue only to be deleted soon after, I'll catch you in our private message thread.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm not going to be baited into defending a statement I never made because you can't defend a statement you did make. Since I'm repeating myself, that likely means we are bordering on what the moderators would call bickering territory. Unless you want our off-topic posts to continue only to be deleted soon after, I'll catch you in our private message thread.



I'll sweeten the pot. If you can provide ONE instance of conservative hypocrisy, I'll leave this site and never return.

Even with that offer, I GUARANTEE you won't provide a single example.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I'll sweeten the pot. If you can provide ONE instance of conservative hypocrisy, I'll leave this site and never return.
> 
> Even with that offer, I GUARANTEE you won't provide a single example.


And I guarantee that you won't provide a single example for why Star Trek Voyager is the best Star Trek series. That doesn't mean it's at all pertinent to the conversation.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> And I guarantee that you won't provide a single example for why Star Trek Voyager is the best Star Trek series. That doesn't mean it's at all pertinent to the conversation.



Still waiting for just ONE example. By providing none, you concede the point that conservatives, from your point of view, have never done a single thing that could be seen as hypocritical. Cool. Glad we could agree on something!


----------



## Lacius (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> By providing none, you concede the point that conservatives, from your point of view, have never done a single thing that could be seen as hypocritical. Cool. Glad we could agree on something!


Your assertion on how point-concessions work is stunningly incorrect. My refusal to provide evidence for claims you made for me, for numerous reasons, doesn't mean I've conceded anything anymore than it means you've conceded anything about Star Trek.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe



Complete lie. Can you site ONE, just ONE accredited scientist/doctor (with credentials to back it up) stating that any of these COVID vaccines are safe?

Anxiously awaiting your reply.


----------



## omgcat (Jan 3, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Complete lie. Can you site ONE, just ONE accredited scientist/doctor (with credentials to back it up) stating that any of these COVID vaccines are safe?
> 
> Anxiously awaiting your reply.


here is an example of conservative hypocracy:
https://www.wfla.com/community/heal...vid-19-vaccine-before-many-frontline-workers/

https://www.abccolumbia.com/2020/12...m-receives-covid-19-vaccine-over-the-weekend/

*answer me this, if it wasn't safe, why are conservative reps and senators hopping the line to get it?*

also both Gabor David Kelen, M.D. and Lisa Lockerd Maragakis, M.D., M.P.H. say the vaccine is safe.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...eases/coronavirus/is-the-covid19-vaccine-safe

I'm sorry you don't understand the science.


----------



## 0x3000027E (Jan 4, 2021)

omgcat said:


> here is an example of conservative hypocracy:
> https://www.wfla.com/community/heal...vid-19-vaccine-before-many-frontline-workers/
> 
> https://www.abccolumbia.com/2020/12...m-receives-covid-19-vaccine-over-the-weekend/
> ...


Well done, sir. While it is not too difficult to point out acts of hypocrisy from either "side", you have provided specific references. The thread seems much quieter now....


----------



## omgcat (Jan 4, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Complete lie. Can you site ONE, just ONE accredited scientist/doctor (with credentials to back it up) stating that any of these COVID vaccines are safe?
> 
> Anxiously awaiting your reply.



Anxiously awaiting your response


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jan 4, 2021)

omgcat said:


> Anxiously awaiting your response



 I think they left the site never to return. I mean, they DID say they would if just ONE example was given.


----------



## beermonkey (Jan 4, 2021)

Had my vaccine 2 weeks ago. No second head or anything so far. Happy to have been jabbed.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

Another crazy conspiracy theory becomes a conspiracy fact... that the PCR COVID test (*especially without knowing the Ct*) is NOT accurate: https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...ts-prepares-ground-biden-virus-rescue-miracle

Thanks Dr. Fraud, I mean, Fauci, for finally, publicly acknowledging this!


----------



## Xzi (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Another crazy conspiracy theory becomes a conspiracy fact... that the PCR COVID test (*especially without knowing the Ct*) is NOT accurate: https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...ts-prepares-ground-biden-virus-rescue-miracle


"By Tyler Durden."

Yeah seems totally legit.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> "By Tyler Durden."
> 
> Yeah seems totally legit.



LULZ!!!! If you knew anything about that site, which you obviously don’t, you’d know that “Tyler Durden” is just a pseudonym that multiple authors use to write articles on there. Fun fact, some of the “Tylers” get paid around $150,000/year for their contributions.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> LULZ!!!! If you knew anything about that site, which you obviously don’t, you’d know that “Tyler Durden” is just a pseudonym that multiple authors use to write articles on there. Fun fact, some of the “Tylers” get paid around $150,000/year for their contributions.


Riiight...and I've got some oceanfront property in Colorado to sell you.  That site has worse formatting than even a wordpress blog, I can't believe anybody would buy into it.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 5, 2021)

Failed to fetch tweet https://mobile.twitter.com/amuse/status/1346131986939846656


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Riiight...and I've got some oceanfront property in Colorado to sell you.  That site has worse formatting than even a wordpress blog, I can't believe anybody would buy into it.



LULZ. You really should just stop. Comments like that continue to show how ignorant you are about that site.

Like all liberals, you can't be bothered to research anything and need spoon fed (and like Lacius, I'm sure you'll deny the proof I'm about to lay out) but here you go:

https://www.wealthmanagement.com/industry/unmasking-men-behind-zero-hedge-wall-streets-renegade-blog

From the article:

"A former “director of contributor success” at website Seeking Alpha, Lokey said he joined Zero Hedge for $6,000 a month and received an annual bonus of $50,000, *earning more than $100,000 last year*. His salary helped pay the rent on a “very nice” condominium on South Carolina’s Hilton Head Island, he said. Despite the compensation, he contends that he left because he disagreed with the site's editorial vision. “Reality checks are great. But Zero Hedge ceased to serve that public service years ago,” Lokey wrote. “They care what generates page views. Clicks. Money.”

There are more examples out there of other "Tylers" raking in lots of cash but stop being lazy and do something that seems impossible for you and Lacius; which is seeking the truth.

But I guess this is all fake news and proves nothing, am I right?  LULZ!


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

Probably just a bad coincidence:

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/portuguese-nurse-dies-suddenly-after-receiving-covid-vaccine


----------



## wartutor (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Probably just a bad coincidence:
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/portuguese-nurse-dies-suddenly-after-receiving-covid-vaccine


In other news someone driving a car today died after slamming into a brick wall. Damn brick walls are deadly. I'm no expert but that woman just looked like she was in perfect health. 1 person died from taking the vaccine. 1000 died that didn't. How about your source waits to see the actual "cause of death" before inserting foot into mouth. If the article is even remotely real.


----------



## linuxares (Jan 5, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> https://mobile.twitter.com/amuse/status/1346131986939846656


It's obviously not a proper mask. Surgical masks are the best since... well they're made for this purpose.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

wartutor said:


> In other news someone driving a car today died after slamming into a brick wall. Damn brick walls are deadly. I'm no expert but that woman just looked like she was in perfect health. 1 person died from taking the vaccine. 1000 died that didn't. How about your source waits to see the actual "cause of death" before inserting foot into mouth. If the article is even remotely real.



Like most liberals, I see you suffer from a reading comprehension problem and ignore parts of statements you don't like..... that's why I put *Probably just a bad coincidence:* in my message.



linuxares said:


> It's obviously not a proper mask. Surgical masks are the best since... well they're made for this purpose.



BZZZZZZZZT! WRONG!

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

From the article:

*"At this time, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has not approved any type of surgical mask specifically for protection against the coronavirus, but these masks may provide some protection when N95 masks are not available."*

You really need to read up on what a surgical mask is and what it's primarily designed to protect you from.

Man, you liberals really are dense. You BLINDLY gobble up everything the lügenpresse feeds you and when faced with real facts, this is your reply:


----------



## Xzi (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Comments like that continue to show how ignorant you are about that site.


Well if you hadn't linked it, I could've remained perfectly ignorant to the fact that such a half-assed eyesore of a "news blog" exists.  Or that there are idiots dumb enough to take it seriously despite the fact that it's plastered with more ridiculous ads than most porn sites.


----------



## omgcat (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> LULZ!!!! If you knew anything about that site, which you obviously don’t, you’d know that “Tyler Durden” is just a pseudonym that multiple authors use to write articles on there. Fun fact, some of the “Tylers” get paid around $150,000/year for their contributions.



oh shit, some of these Tylers get slightly above average software engineer salaries! impressive! for someone who complains about qualifications, you sure do like people who run anonymously who you can't verify qualifications. raise that pay to 210k+ (principle software engineer salary) and it'll seem actually impressive to people.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Well if you hadn't linked it, I could've remained perfectly ignorant to the fact that such a half-assed eyesore of a "news blog" exists.  Or that there are idiots dumb enough to take it seriously despite the fact that it's plastered with more ridiculous ads than most porn sites.



You and Lacius are two peas in the same pod.

Watch everyone, you're about to see a liberal do mental gymnastics to the point where his head implodes:

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/rate-adverse-reactions-covid-vaccines-already-50x-higher-flu-shot

Ignorant liberal: ..... tens of thousands have successfully taken the vaccine and only a handful of people died or had adverse reaction....... oh freaking well. A few deaths per 1K is AOK. Get that vaccine out there!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111!!111 If people don't want the vaccine, we should shoot them in the head to save them from this virus that is so deadly you need a test to know whether you have it and the survival rate is only 99.8%!!!!!!!!!!111111111

Well informed, level headed person: ..... Hey liberal, why do you want to force everyone to get an experimental vaccine (that could possibly kill them or cause them great harm 1, 5, 10 years from now) and destroy the economy over a virus that is only responsible for killing 0.10% of the population? (Based off CDC numbers and census data...... if you can trust the numbers.)

To a liberal, logic and numbers only matter when it suits them. Low deaths from the COVID vaccine is safe to ignore. Low deaths from the virus is a reason to burn the country to the ground.


----------



## linuxares (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Like most liberals, I see you suffer from a reading comprehension problem and ignore parts of statements you don't like..... that's why I put *Probably just a bad coincidence:* in my message.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, did you sniff glue as a child? They don't protect YOU from getting it. It protect OTHERS from YOU giving it to THEM. Jesus why do people think the masks are a shield rather than a filter?
I bet the same people think the Holocaust is a myth and the earth is flat.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

omgcat said:


> oh shit, some of these Tylers get slightly above average software engineer salaries! impressive! for someone who complains about qualifications, you sure do like people who run anonymously who you can't verify qualifications. raise that pay to 210k+ (principle software engineer salary) and it'll seem actually impressive to people.



I was typing up a reply then had to stop because your comment is just....... confusing. Somebody called into question the salary I tossed out for a writer on ZH. I backed it up. Why are you comparing it to a software engineer salary?

Did CNN or Rachael Maddow put you up to this?!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



linuxares said:


> Dude, did you sniff glue as a child? They don't protect YOU from getting it. It protect OTHERS from YOU giving it to THEM. Jesus why do people think the masks are a shield rather than a filter?
> I bet the same people think the Holocaust is a myth and the earth is flat.



BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong again!
Dude, your 'surgical masks' don't protect you from *getting* or *giving* COVID to anyone!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE POINTLESS at stopping the spread of COVID!

I bet you're in the same group of people that think Bill Clinton didn't get a blow job from Monica, or that he never hung out with a known pedophile (like the orange clown also did), or Joe Biden never admitting on video that he withheld funding from Ukraine unless/until the prosecutor investigation his son's dealing with Burisma was fired. I mean, if Biden didn't do anything wrong, why would he want the prosecutor fired? If you're innocent, you're innocent.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> You and Lacius are two peas in the same pod.


Ah yes, the "doesn't get their news from blog sites" pod.  It's a rather large, spacious pod despite the billions of people that inhabit it.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Ah yes, the "doesn't get their news from blog sites" pod.  It's a rather large, spacious pod despite the billions of people that inhabit it.



Just like the other one, you can't refute a single thing I say. Hard to refute the truth. LULZ! 

Large and spacious.... like the space between your ears? Or like the shared conscious of all you liberals out there?


----------



## Xzi (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Just like the other one, you can't refute a single thing I say.


There's nothing to refute until you post some actual news or facts.  "Internet rando said this so it must be true" doesn't exactly inspire any debate or discussion.  You might as well be citing Reddit or Facebook comments.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 5, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Dude, did you sniff glue as a child? They don't protect YOU from getting it. It protect OTHERS from YOU giving it to THEM. Jesus why do people think the masks are a shield rather than a filter?
> I bet the same people think the Holocaust is a myth and the earth is flat.


1. It's not my responsibility to protect strangers.
2. I don't feel sick.
3. Logically, wearing a mask would make the wearer more likely to get it, or develop a worse condition, as the particles would stick to the mask.


----------



## linuxares (Jan 5, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> 1. It's not my responsibility to protect strangers.
> 2. I don't feel sick.
> 3. Logically, wearing a mask would make the wearer more likely to get it, or develop a worse condition, as the particles would stick to the mask.


Just imagine this. If everyone worse a mask, the chance to spread the virus would slow down. Not everyone lives in their own little magic bubble where they think they're the center of the galaxy.

And yes, you aren't suppose to fiddle around with the mask. You put it on, leave it and then take it off. Wash your hands and tada?


----------



## omgcat (Jan 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> There's nothing to refute until you post some actual news or facts.  "Internet rando said this so it must be true" doesn't exactly inspire any debate or discussion.  You might as well be citing Reddit or Facebook comments.



imagine thinking that posting memes is a form of argument. feels fucking bad. also, imagine citing someone's salary as if it is an actual measure of their worth, instead of just money.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



gene0915 said:


> I was typing up a reply then had to stop because your comment is just....... confusing. Somebody called into question the salary I tossed out for a writer on ZH. I backed it up. Why are you comparing it to a software engineer salary?
> 
> Did CNN or Rachael Maddow put you up to this?!
> 
> ...




except for the natural studies that have shown masks are effective for covid and the flu. sorry for your inability to research, cite sources, make an actual argument. memes don't hold up to scrutiny. find me one peer reviewed paper that shows that masks don't work. i'll wait.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



UltraSUPRA said:


> 1. It's not my responsibility to protect strangers.
> 2. I don't feel sick.
> 3. Logically, wearing a mask would make the wearer more likely to get it, or develop a worse condition, as the particles would stick to the mask.


 cite any sources for your claims that are peer reviewed by actual scientists.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 5, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Just imagine this. If everyone worse a mask, the chance to spread the virus would slow down. Not everyone lives in their own little magic bubble where they think they're the center of the galaxy.
> 
> And yes, you aren't suppose to fiddle around with the mask. You put it on, leave it and then take it off. Wash your hands and tada?


Your guess is as good as mine how you're supposed to eat out if you have to wash your hands before you put your mask back on, but you have to put your mask back on to get up and go to the bathroom.


omgcat said:


> cite any sources for your claims that are peer reviewed by actual scientists.


"Scientists have yet to confirm that we don't live in a simulation. Therefore, we must live in a simulation."


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> There's nothing to refute until you post some actual news or facts.  "Internet rando said this so it must be true" doesn't exactly inspire any debate or discussion.  You might as well be citing Reddit or Facebook comments.



Triggered.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



omgcat said:


> imagine thinking that posting memes is a form of argument. feels fucking bad. also, imagine citing someone's salary as if it is an actual measure of their worth, instead of just money.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Triggered as well.

You can't refute anything I say. You have yet to post a single, factual, scientific, peer review anything that backs up your wild claims.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jan 5, 2021)

I'll wait for the beta testers to give it a go first, but undoubtedly I will get it by the end of the year. There's no denying that the vaccines went through minimal testing, it's actually remarkable that they even work at all when you consider how fast they were developed, but due to how novel they are I'd rather see it "tested" on a larger scale before I'm confident in it. So far I've been COVID-free due to following recommendations regarding good hygiene and wearing an actual mask as opposed to a cloth rag, so I feel fairly safe waiting for my turn.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 5, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Your guess is as good as mine how you're supposed to eat out if you have to wash your hands before you put your mask back on, but you have to put your mask back on to get up and go to the bathroom.
> 
> "Scientists have yet to confirm that we don't live in a simulation. Therefore, we must live in a simulation."



Well if you're a liberal hypocrite like Gavin Newsom, you can go and eat at a fancy restaurant (while telling the peasants to stay home) with people from outside your household and don't need to worry about wearing a mask in between bites.


----------



## omgcat (Jan 5, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Triggered.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



uhhh did you read the clickable link? or is that too hard?

i'll add the link again told help you out.

except for the natural studies that have shown masks are effective for covid and the flu.

that paper is peer-reviewed, published, and has 43 cross-references.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

omgcat said:


> uhhh did you read the clickable link? or is that too hard?
> 
> i'll add the link again told help you out.
> 
> ...



So uh: https://liberalfirst.com/opinion/7480-new-study-shows-mask-mandates-had-zero-effect


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> So uh: https://liberalfirst.com/opinion/7480-new-study-shows-mask-mandates-had-zero-effect


Is ultimately a reference to this guy, or stock image:






Shilling for a website that brings you this sort of "information":









And throwing around the world "rational" a bunch.

Its unclear which study it refers to (because they dont bother to link, or name it - which in itself is a no go), but looking over the material they 'reference' on the site, they mostly present you with graphs of a linear increase (see above), and then make up "because it didnt went down (the pandemic wasnt solved structurally, through masks), it didnt work".

This is a fallacy, because if you'd expect close to exponential growth and then growthrate looks linear but rising, that would still mean it worked.

Also they have some charts, where they can show ongoing close to exponential growth - and they dont make any difference in argument - so they come from a fixed notion, they dont know what they are doing, they are using emotional imagery (right now a child with down syndrome died of Covid is their first 'news item' on the page), ... do I have to continue?

Also - they almost exclusively feature "data from the US". Which is problematic - when your main message is, that masks dont work.

Because US people basically are useless at wearing masks (https://news.gallup.com/poll/315590/americans-face-mask-usage-varies-greatly-demographics.aspx
 (tendency rising, though: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...wearing-masks-in-stores-and-other-businesses/) )
- and more importantly some demographics are useless at wearing them.

So if you have a population, that cant be bothered (starting from half of your citizens, some of them killing mallcops, that tried to enforce policy before entering stores), if 90% of the videos on democracy now show people mishandling them (just something that stuck in my mind, because they often show videos featuring grass roots reporting - so "normal people" - more often than other news outlets), and touching them all over -

a. their effectiveness isnt as high as it could be (you depend on a large percentage of people wearing them, because normal cloth masks work as crowd control for the virus, not as individual protection.
b. certain populations not bothering at all, means you have pockets in society - where it can spread much faster
c. most infections are still occurring in families and 'close nit' communities, where longer - unprotected contacts are likely (in case your read the 80% of americans are now saying they wear them in stores statistic above) -
so if you plot a statistic, and you have few infections in the beginning, then because of the nature of its propagation, its spiking to a high level quickly (because no one is wearing them at home all the time f.e.), that would be expected - what measures like mask wearing can do is to make it 'plateau earlier'. Plateau means this:




src: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us

So growth running out of fuel.

All in all mask wearing slows down propagation. Doesnt solve it, but slows it down.

Would solve it, if people would behave like robots and adhere to everything they are told to - which they arent. (Statistically it solves it once case infection rate goes below 1 (so if one person infected, infects less than one other person). Plateauing is, if one person infected - infects one other person (when statistically with covid 'uncontrolled' it would be 3+))). Timeframe also matters, but lets simplify this for explanation purposes.

To be fair - plateauing, can also occur, because "the virus ran out of fuel naturally" - which is unlikely, when less than 10% of your societies have been infected.

It can also occur, because your health system exceeded testing capacity - which is a tad more likely - but not much more, because you still run into the 'hospital capacity' problem - quickly - if growth would continue exponentially.
-

And the much more obvious thing to do is to look at how other nations faired - with their mask wearing strategy, and not only focus on statistics out of selected US states.

Essentially because the US did everything wrong in terms of 'public education' on mask usage. (You had your politicians refusing to wear them, you had them holding parties, while not wearing them, no one told you how to wear them (no touching in the middle parts, what to do when they are damp, ... thank you). Partly because you had an availibility problem when propagation first started in the US. So you didnt want people asking 'can I have one' at first.


edit: Here is an even more 'fair' summery than what I just wrote - looking at one US state:
https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_1f5a0286-dbd6-11ea-b428-c3a872847e9b.html

Thats better news than the blog trolling and down syndrome person died because no one did a thing stuff you are following and sharing.


----------



## omgcat (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> So uh: https://liberalfirst.com/opinion/7480-new-study-shows-mask-mandates-had-zero-effect



so uhh where is the link to the actual study they are referencing?


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

omgcat said:


> so uhh where is the link to the actual study they are referencing?


Because you wont have the chance to get any useful information out of the idiot - I did some of the legwork.

The BLOG WITH THE INFO YOU SHOULD FOLLOW ON TWITTER! as told to you by the other blog, that doesnt link sources BUT TELLS YOU WHO TO FOLLOW ON TWITTER was created as a whole in August of this year, see: https://web.archive.org/web/2020*/rationalground.com

Going by the date of the posting thats shilling THE STUDY (it isnt a study), MADE BY THE OTHER BLOG, WHOS MAIN GUY YOU SHOULD FOLLOW ON TWITTER, its referring to this graph - and this graph alone:
https://rationalground.com/post-thanksgiving-mask-charts-still-no-evidence-that-masks-work/

Which is for Oregon.
edit: Actually several US states.

And once more - that blog is politically motivated, and run by stupid people - to be referenced again by other blogs, telling you to follow people on social media, which are in the same network.

Questions?


----------



## omgcat (Jan 6, 2021)

notimp said:


> Because you wont have the chance to get any useful information out of the idiot - I did some of the legwork.
> 
> The BLOG WITH THE INFO YOU SHOULD FOLLOW ON TWITTER! as told to you by the other blog, that doesnt link sources BUT TELLS YOU WHO TO FOLLOW ON TWITTER was created as a whole in August of this year, see: https://web.archive.org/web/2020*/rationalground.com
> 
> ...



figured as much, but thanks for saving me from ready more of that trash.

he has an inability to correctly cite peer reviewed content. he also makes crazy statements and gets clapped when people call bullshit.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

omgcat said:


> figured as much, but thanks for saving me from ready more of that trash.


Sorry - didnt scroll - they list graphs for several US states, not only for oregon.

That said all of those graphs expose serious "y axis stretching" (the increments are 25 people on the y axis), and dont account for 'winter' in any of their 'explorations' of the data.

(If people mostly outside - spread is at a certain rate.
If people mostly outside - wearing masks spread is at a different rate.
If people mostly inside - wearing masks spread is at a different rate

Then they lie to you, that masks as advertised would have meant, that the issue should be gone.
Then they lie to you that infection rates rising must mean masks have no effect.
Then they ignore the stuff actual data scientists are saying in behavioral changes having set in maybe even 2 weeks before mask mandates, and that if you go by CDC data, they are 'reporting a backlog' so those numbers never were 'day accurate'.
Then they cherry pick which states to feature prominently.

Then they dont look at 'mask wearing compliance' in that states population. (f.e. Nevada, where according to the graph it had no impact (not even a plateau)).
(edit: What happened in Nevada: https://thenevadaindependent.com/ar...pliance-with-mask-mandate-may-cause-crackdown )

Then they condense it down to a sentence, that indicates 'conspiracy?', then everyone is happy.)


----------



## omgcat (Jan 6, 2021)

notimp said:


> Sorry - didnt scroll - they list graphs for several US states, not only for oregon.



yeah, but it wasn't peer reviewed and didn't list their methodology and conclusion.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

omgcat said:


> yeah, but it wasn't peer reviewed and didn't list their methodology and conclusion.


Added some more problematic stuff in regards to 'methodology' to my previous posting.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

omgcat said:


> yeah, but it wasn't peer reviewed and didn't list their methodology and conclusion.





notimp said:


> Added some more problematic stuff in regards to 'methodology' to my previous posting.



The data about wearing a mask being pointless is 100% accurate. Still waiting on either of you to post factual evidence that states otherwise. Guess I should rely on Facebook and Snopes for all my 'unbiased facts' eh?


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> The data about wearing a mask being pointless is 100% accurate. Still waiting on either of you to post factual evidence that states otherwise. Guess I should rely on Facebook and Snopes for all my 'unbiased facts' eh?


You are still an idiot - linking to blogs that are created to farm idiots.

Reasoning. Plateaus, after (with two week slack periods) mask mandates - in almost all those graphs.

If winter comes, and more people in tighter spaces, not wearing masks raises infection numbers again, that has nothing to do with mask wearing not working.

Stop idiot.
--

The problem goes deeper than that.

Baucause in this graph - (https://web.archive.org/web/2020122...tent/uploads/2020/12/12-1-Masks-2048x1617.png) the f*cking assholes (of the we created political blog in august because we not journalists, but bored people of the ideological complexion) also seek to disable the 'compliance?' argument - by using effing sweden, using effing death numbers instead of daily new cases (more prone to aggressive changes in trends - especially if you keep them close to zero for a while, more prone to 'single events' like another outbreak in an old folks home...) for the first time, for no reason.

Not stating with a word, that compliance to social distancing measures in sweden was very good.

And again, not stating population density.

Italy: 205 inhabitants per square kilometer
France: 122 people per square kilometer
UK: 275 people per square kilometer
Spain: 94 people per square kilometer

Sweden: 25 people per square kilometer

If you get in contact with none of your neighbors in a month, no mask policies also work - is what you are saying. And the 7% number listed is not the compliance value - but the people that were mandated to wear masks, because they live in cities.
edit: See: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...r-as-covid-19-deaths-hit-record-idUSKBN2941KX

You are an IIIIIIIiiiiiiiiidiot.

Posting effing partisan propaganda, from propaganda sites created in August for iiiiiidiots. That are mostly telling people to follow certain Twitter accounts, that feed them with suff that to have them stuck in 'bubbles' for iiiidiots.


edit: But nuance - is not what the site is out for. The site is out to farm people with bubu images of childred with down syndrom that have died, with no one doing anything - telling you that you should look out for a vaccines effectiveness percentage (sure - if you care very much about having to go to a doctor twice in a year instead of only one time (to get a second shot, which increases the percentage to needed levels), thats mostly bitching about things it doesnt seem to understand - warning you about the "risks to freedom", and group dynamics at universites - because ivory tower -

In short - you are listening to a guy that hates university educated people and cant read graphs, without proposing 'doesnt work' because line didnt go down.

If thats your father - you are sh*t out of luck. If thats your doctor - run.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> The data about wearing a mask being pointless is 100% accurate. Still waiting on either of you to post factual evidence that states otherwise. Guess I should rely on Facebook and Snopes for all my 'unbiased facts' eh?


Face masks are demonstrably effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html


----------



## wartutor (Jan 6, 2021)

You guys arguing back and forth about masks how dumb. You sight this guys findings and numbers, you sight this one to rebut. Do "proper" masks work in a "controlled" study following strict guidelines YES. Do they work in the real world where people don't wear the right kind (a thin cloth over their mouth most 1 layer) in a work environment where you touch it and it falls down and you have to lift it back over your nose. Wearing the same one every day and then people just not wearing them at all. NO because you can't make people do it. Wear one if you want and quit trying to control people because history has shown that doesn't work. If your scared stay the fuck home and quit crying.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

wartutor said:


> You guys arguing back and forth about masks how dumb. You sight this guys findings and numbers, you sight this one to rebut. Do "proper" masks work in a "controlled" study following strict guidelines YES. Do they work in the real world where people don't wear the right kind (a thin cloth over their mouth most 1 layer) in a work environment where you touch it and it falls down and you have to lift it back over your nose. Wearing the same one every day and then people just not wearing them at all. NO because you can't make people do it. Wear one if you want and quit trying to control people because history has shown that doesn't work. If your scared stay the fuck home and quit crying.


Also mostly wrong.

The mask usage studies people did look at, before making them mandatory in field - were mass usage studies, in field. One of the issues was, that at first there werent that many, and that they sometimes were contradictory.
(Wow, so you are saying it depends on how people used them?)

You are right though, that if you are dealing with people, that "do not believe in them", and then "dont use them", and then use "numbers still bad" as an excuse for their behavior - you are rectifying a self fulfilling prophecy, that certainly doesnt get better, once you've convinced everyone not to do jack.
--

Because you cant differentiate "was it masks, was it behavior change" (people holding more distance) very well, we can come down to "you want something" that creates those plateaus.

Otherwise, what you would see in in those graphs is spikes, that accelerate to the point where mass immunity is reached, and then sharply drop - because mass immunity is reached.

That they 'plateau' at all, means "fuel is missing". Was it masks, was it people not shaking hands anymore, was it people washing hands more often - you cant ask them (they dont know), and you cant say which one it was for sure - but you want that mix, to get you the result of the "one person infects three" spread stalling - earlier than at 'congratulations, 60% of your popultion has it already'.

Now any somewhat effective measure could do that. If your group of ultra morons, that 'dont believe in it working' finally are all infected, and have reached mass immunity - while at the same time only 10% of your overall population is effected, this would also show in a plateau, no masks needed with the morons, but masks needed with everyone else.

If a slight summers breeze is enough to keep concentration of aerosols in the air beachside in Santa Monica low concentration enough, that spread stays linear, so be it - but that wasnt what people were seeing all over the country. (If you look at the sharp spike and sharp fall in Nevada - thats more of an indication for 'all morons infected now').

Not seeing a decline in the graphs, is not 'masks arent working', because with cloth/curgical masks you want to slow down spread, and prevent propagation "across" different tighly nit groups, that meet without wearing masks.
So - if there is no change in the expected propagation curve, you are allowed to scratch your head. But a 'lessening incline' is not no change, and a flat line (plateau), also is not no change.

And that if more people stay longer in heated rooms, than outside, the whole problem becomes bigger by several magnitudes - also is something you could have known, by the point you realized, that any flue is seasonal.

Also - if you dont limit 'mass spread vectors' (mass spreader events) like the US never showed many signs of doing - you can have exponential growth - for a while, with many people only f.e. infecting their families. Because at home, people dont wear masks. That doesnt mean, that you shouldnt try to have it not spread across your society - using any of the means you have.

And masks are shown to both reduce the aerosols in the air (not entirely, but by volume and amounts of particles per unit of air), and remind people to adhere to social distancing rules. Are they perfect? No. Do they help? Yes. And you can even see it in the graphs that are lampooned to 'show that masks didnt work' because the line still went up again six months further into the future.

Thats simply ignorance - and pronouncing something, because you cant read whats there.
--

Also if you want to look at this by country, and lets use 'how well was it managed' (instead of just 'masks'), thats fine as well.

Germany:

Great compliance:





France:

Got out of hand, followed by actually good compliance:





Spain:

All over the place - probably not well managed - and at the beginning of the next incline:





Italy:

Missmanaged at first, but now on the way to a plateau, after 'harsher measures'





US:
Finally plateauing, so what I'd call managed - but at a very high level (relative to peak) of cases (thats the best case scenario for the economy btw, because it means, there were few lockdowns in place.):






Also please take with a grain of salt, because if you limit testing - you also get a plateau. And there are testing limitations in certain german metropolies, that I know are in place (not sure how much they affect the overall result, not sure how thats handled in other countries - so just one datapoint to remind you to be at least a bit sceptical.)

Also deaths curve for italy looks like this:
(Death curves are always 'more spikey' ('prone to extremes, caused by single events'))




Meaning, that they did a great job managing the actual care of patients better the second time around. Or that the second time arround mostly young people got infected.

Deathrate in the US -




Shows an almost constant high death rate - as in 'almost nothing done'.

Now for deaths you'd have to look at deaths per million to find out if true.

US deaths per million: 1100,
Italy deaths per million: 1200,
(France deaths per million: 1000,
Spain deaths per million 1100,
Germany deaths per million: 440)

(Population density:

US: 35.5 inhabitants per square kilometer
Italy: 205 inhabitants per square kilometer
France: 122 people per square kilometer
Spain: 94 people per square kilometer
Germany: 234 people per square kilometer

Meaning US sucked balls, and Spain sucked.)

Meaning - even though italy was hit 'the worst' in the beginning, US managed to become like italy - by missmanaging their outbreak throughout the year. And while having the far better (lower) population density number. Congratulations.
-


If you want proof that Nevada was a bumblef*ck state:
https://twitter.com/COVID19Tracking/status/1340106627576262656



> Almost every state reports more than 100 people hospitalized per million, while Nevada reports 592, which translates into 1 out of 1700 people in the state.


https://twitter.com/COVID19Tracking/status/1338285945708146689

edit: Deaths per million for Nevada are also at around 1000, thats odd - so lets look at population density:

Nevada: 11 inhabitants per square kilometer - so they a re bumblef*ck central. 3.5 times lower population density than the rest of the country (on average), but just as many deaths per million as the rest.
--

Also - if you want to see something odd, you compare 'infections per million', where every developed state is aiming at around the 40000 number.

And where Switzerland is at 40000, but germany is at 20000 - what that tells you is - that
Masks work - but no one gives a f*ck what people are shouting, and everyone is aiming at that 40k number currently, no matter the circumstances at all (not population density, not age, not terrain, ...) - which means the actual driver for measures is not 'what people think', but actually - economic.

In germany it isnt - but 'the f*ck are they doing'. Also there is a suspiciously high amount of developing countries also at 20k or 10k and below. So either their 'climate' very healthy - or those numbers are fixed (f.e. by limitation of testing capacity), or for some reason they all wear masks as successfully as germans do.

src: https://ncov2019.live/

Arrived at that conclusion after wondering, why Nevada was bumblef*ck central until they hit 1000 deaths per million, and only then started to do something.

Also looking at "rich people central and also an island" (New Zealand), they are at 400 infections per million. Which is 100x better than everyone else - and they werent limited by testing, at a population density of 18 inhabitants per square kilometer. This gives you an idea what role topography can play. And where Nevada could have ended up - if well managed.

Nevada infections per million, currently? 80000. New Zealand 400. But the problem is, that masks dont work?


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Face masks are demonstrably effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html



FAKE NEWS!

BTW, still waiting on you to provide a single instance of liberal hypocrisy. Didn't think I'd forget, did you?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> FAKE NEWS!
> 
> BTW, still waiting on you to provide a single instance of liberal hypocrisy. Didn't think I'd forget, did you?


The source I provided links to 45 different scientific studies, so I understand the only response you could muster was essentially "nuh uh."


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

notimp said:


> .... deleted propaganda



Wow, what a bunch of pretty, fake graphs. Look at you, such a good little sheep parroting the lügenpresse's talking points!

Sweden was doing just fine keeping the infection rate and deaths really low from this virus (a virus that is no more deadly than the common flu) without locking down or making people put on face diapers. But they started to become a bigger and bigger thorn in the sides of all the infectious disease experts, like Bill Gates, as more and more people were asking, "Why do we need face diapers and have to destroy our economy for 0.10% of the population when Sweden is doing just fine taking no preventative actions with their population? So I'm positive that somebody (or an un-elected group of individuals) told Sweden to get into the fear business and start mandating face diapers for their population.

Said it before and I'll say it again:

Ignorant liberal: ..... tens of thousands have successfully taken the vaccine and only a handful of people died or had adverse reaction....... oh freaking well. A few deaths per 1K is AOK. Get that vaccine out there!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111!!111 If people don't want the vaccine, we should shoot them in the head to save them from this virus that is so deadly you need a test to know whether you have it and the survival rate is only 99.8%!!!!!!!!!!111111111

Well informed, level headed person: ..... Hey liberal, why do you want to force everyone to get an experimental vaccine (that could possibly kill them or cause them great harm 1, 5, 10 years from now) and destroy the economy over a virus that is only responsible for killing 0.10% of the population? (Based off CDC numbers and census data...... if you can trust the numbers.)

To a liberal, logic and numbers only matter when it suits them. Low deaths from the COVID vaccine is safe to ignore. Low deaths from the virus is a reason to burn the country to the ground.






--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> The source I provided links to 45 different scientific studies, so I understand the only response you could muster was essentially "nuh uh."



FAKE. NEWS.

Still waiting on you to post ONE, just OOOOOONNNNNNNEEEEEE story that shows a conservative being a hypocrite!

BTW, how does it feel to be on the other side?


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 6, 2021)

... At first, I was tempted to make reading this Thread a Drinking Game; Drink for every Picture and|or Video attached.

Now it just seems like an excuse to get drunk.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Wow, what a bunch of pretty, fake graphs. Look at you, such a good little sheep parroting the lügenpresse's talking points!
> 
> Sweden was doing just fine keeping the infection rate and deaths really low from this virus (a virus that is no more deadly than the common flu) without locking down or making people put on face diapers. But they started to become a bigger and bigger thorn in the sides of all the infectious disease experts, like Bill Gates, as more and more people were asking, "Why do we need face diapers and have to destroy our economy for 0.10% of the population when Sweden is doing just fine taking no preventative actions with their population? So I'm positive that somebody (or an un-elected group of individuals) told Sweden to get into the fear business and start mandating face diapers for their population.
> 
> ...


Do you honestly think shouting "fake news" as a rebuttal does anything to help, not hurt, your side?

Perhaps this is why Democrats have taken the House, Senate, and Presidency.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Do you honestly think shouting "fake news" as a rebuttal does anything to help, not hurt, your side?
> 
> Perhaps this is why Democrats have taken the House, Senate, and Presidency.



Still waiting on ONE story from you that shows a conservative being a hypocrite. Just ONE. ONE STORY. Guess there are no conservative hypocrites and only liberals are hypocrites. HAHAHAHAHAH   

Remember, if you can provide ONE story, I'll leave this website forever.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Wow, what a bunch of pretty, fake graphs. Look at you, such a good little sheep parroting the lügenpresse's talking points!


And the graphs you posted (you posted a 'study' that wasnt linked, but that I linked to that was a bunch of graphs 'interestgly' marked, on a partisan blog, that came into existance in august of this year), also coming from state institutions - arent fake?

All that I'm trying to teach you is - that you can stick to your graphs. The ones you posted.

But that you dont read 'plateaus' or 'linear increases' (different from exponential), as "masks didnt work" - because something worked there.
And something, likely wasnt tight lockdowns of entire cities, and something also wasnt 'herd immunity reached' (at least not for large populations), because that would be represented by a spike, and a sharp decline.

So using _your graphs_ - whoever came to the conclution, that they were _proof_ that masks dont work - didnt know jack.

Plateaus at 10% of population infected (back when masks were made mandetory) dont come into existance because of nothing. So something worked.

For a while. Until winter.

And even in winter - said something is working again (looking at the US infection graph), at a higher case rate - once 'exponential infection rate of people you interact with in closed rooms without masks' stopped. The US is holding a plateau right now - at 20-30% of population infected, which isnt herd immunity.

So whats responsible for that? Jesus?


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

notimp said:


> And the graphs you posted (you posted a 'study' that wasnt linked, but that I linked to that was a bunch of graphs 'interestgly' marked, on a partisan blog, that came into existance in august of this year), also coming from state institutions - arent fake?
> 
> All that I'm trying to teach you is - that you can stick to your graphs. The ones you posted.
> 
> ...



Your post makes zero sense.

Said it before and I'll say it again:

Ignorant liberal: ..... tens of thousands have successfully taken the vaccine and only a handful of people died or had adverse reaction....... oh freaking well. A few deaths per 1K is AOK. Get that vaccine out there!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111!!111 If people don't want the vaccine, we should shoot them in the head to save them from this virus that is so deadly you need a test to know whether you have it and the survival rate is only 99.8%!!!!!!!!!!111111111

Well informed, level headed person: ..... Hey liberal, why do you want to force everyone to get an experimental vaccine (that could possibly kill them or cause them great harm 1, 5, 10 years from now) and destroy the economy over a virus that is only responsible for killing 0.10% of the population? (Based off CDC numbers and census data...... if you can trust the numbers.)

To a liberal, logic and numbers only matter when it suits them. Low deaths from the COVID vaccine is safe to ignore. Low deaths from the virus is a reason to burn the country to the ground.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Your post makes zero sense.
> 
> Said it before and I'll say it again:
> 
> ...


Yes correct. Not only ignorant liberals, but the position of anyone managing a state - that cant look at individual cases.

Also vaccines currently dont have much impact on any of those graphs. You still have too few people getting access to them.
-

And if you are only focusing on individual cases, then Peter got a pimple, because they had to wear a mask, and Marry got adverse effects from her vaccination - but thanks to vaccinations (and btw not wearing masks, but masks 'slowed down' the propagation), the thing that by end of january, in the US will have produced as many deaths as the entirety of US deaths in WW2, will stop.

An noone looking at numbers cares about Mary and her adverse effects, if those are shown to be small (low) enough compared to the amount of people vaccinated (getting immunity without becoming sick).

Thats the sad truth.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

notimp said:


> Yes correct. Not only ignorant liberals, but the position of anyone managing a state - that cant look at individual cases.
> 
> Also vaccines currently dont have much impact on any of those graphs. You still have too few people getting access to them.
> -
> ...



Imagine a world where people were given all the data (good and bad) and left to make their own choices? If they want to mask up or get an experimental vaccine, go for it! If stores don't want to require anyone to wear a mask, then don't. If people want to go into a store but are afraid to walk into a store that DOESN'T require everyone to wear a mask, they could shop elsewhere.

Is that the world you want or do you want a world where highly infectious disease experts, like Bill Gates, are given airtime to opine about how we need to live our lives and watch small business left and right permanently close down?


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Imagine a world where people were given all the data (good and bad) and left to make their own choices? If they want to mask up or get an experimental vaccine, go for it! If stores don't want to require anyone to wear a mask, then don't. If people want to go into a store but are afraid to walk into a store that DOESN'T require everyone to wear a mask, they could shop elsewhere.
> 
> Is that the world you want or do you want a world where highly infectious disease experts, like Bill Gates, are given airtime to opine about how we need to live our lives and watch small business left and right permanently close down?


Also - one more try to get over the 'what you say doesnt make sense' part.

If one person infects three people you get exponential growth - that if nothing is done, stops at 60-70% of population infected. (Then it runs out of fuel, because of herd immunity). Still not exactly correct, because there are other limiting factors, that also could lead to a plateau after a while - like "everyone in a state has it, and other state closed borders", or f.e. that you arent dealing with exponential growth, but something 'close to that' - because f.e. 'people became more careful'.

Linear growth occurs, when every infected person infects 1.something other people.

Curves look as follows:






So if you reduce the infection rate from lets say 2.5 people infected by every person infected to 1.2, you still have growth (curve didnt go down), but whatever you did - worked.

If you would reduce it to 0.9 (which means persons stays at home for sure..., and others arent infecting 2.5 people) you would first see slow decline.

Now - what happened in winter?

Case infection rates suddenly shot up to exponential again (one person infecting 3), then plateaued at different levels. (In europe at lower ones, because of stricter curfew measures), but plateauing

==




src: https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/no...ng-begin-dropping/3PZYKKLA7FDCFJLSXFBGTPF5GI/

still means a significant change in infection rate, to about 1.something
-

Now - what did cause the exponential rise, when winter started? Masks not working (flat reduction of infection rate) - or most people (lets say 3x for no reason) spending their entire day in closed, but heated rooms?

The 'flat increase' in 'masks not performing as they should have', doesnt explain an increase in infection rate by 3 or 4 times. So that wasnt masks.

So correct: Mask dint prevent 95% of infections (largely because people didnt use them all the time), but if they prevented 50%, or all measures together did, you would see a plateau. And an increase by 300% once winter started - cant be explained by masks not working. Its to much of an increase - so infection rate spiked to 3-5 people again, not because of masks, but because people in smaller rooms, likely not wearing them now infected 3-5 other people again. But that plateaued again - which means it ran out of fuel (so something worked again).

And it wasnt herd immunity, because then you would see a rather sharp decline in new infections (hence the 'immunity' part), same with lockdowns.

If you dont want to 'believe' me (because we have an argument), here - read this:
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/37/22684

Its more complicated, but also more accurate, than what I'm telling you.


----------



## wartutor (Jan 6, 2021)

notimp said:


> Also - one more try to get over the 'what you say doesnt make sense' part.
> 
> If one person infects three people you get exponential growth - that if nothing is done, stops at 60-70% of population infected. (Then it runs out of fuel, because of herd immunity). Still not exactly correct, because there are other limiting factors, that also could lead to a plateau after a while - like "everyone in a state has it, and other state closed borders", or f.e. that you arent dealing with exponential growth, but something 'close to that' - because f.e. 'people became more careful'.
> 
> ...


Mostly what caused the spike in fall/winter months was schools opening up, (I don't know why the fuck they even did this other than $.) Then to top it off they also let schools participate in sports. Spreading it from town to town at an exponential rate. (An even more stupid thing to do than just opening schools.) They let it spread made the numbers look bad before the election.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

wartutor said:


> Mostly what caused the spike in fall/winter months was schools opening up


Also fine as an explanation. Simply - more people in closed rooms. Often without masks, sometimes with... (If you except mask reduction potential not by 95% but closer to 50% if both infected and non infected people were wearing them, you still could get those 'spike' - which ultimately wasnt a spike - but an exponetial increase (something changed) into a plateu (something is limiting it again, and it isnt heard immunity (immunity would mean decline).)

Its easier to explain this with "in winter every person infected, also infected their entire family (no one is wearing masks all day at home)" - than with "schools are now open again" - but yes ultimately that (more people in heated rooms) was what caused the exponential incline in winter.

Could have been schools entirely, you can have that. (For arguments sake.)

But that it went to exponential again, is 'some change' (more people infected by one person again) that was more than just 'masks failing'.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 6, 2021)

wartutor said:


> Mostly what caused the spike in fall/winter months was schools opening up, (I don't know why the fuck they even did this other than $.) Then to top it off they also let schools participate in sports. Spreading it from town to town at an exponential rate. (An even more stupid thing to do than just opening schools.) They let it spread made the numbers look bad before the election.



Schools require staff and students to wear masks at all time while in class so how could opening up schools cause a spike? Unless..... masks are useless? Or maybe the sports are to blame? Fine, ban all sports. I'm fine with that. But if they do that, and schools STILL see spikes, then what?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



notimp said:


> Also fine as an explanation. Simply - more people in closed rooms. Often without masks, sometimes with... (If you except mask reduction potential not by 95% but closer to 50% if both infected and non infected people were wearing them, you still could get those 'spike' - which ultimately wasnt a spike - but an exponetial increase (something changed) into a plateu (something is limiting it again, and it isnt heard immunity (immunity would mean decline).)
> 
> Its easier to explain this with "in winter every person infected, also infected their entire family (no one is wearing masks all day at home)" - than with "schools are now open again" - but yes ultimately that (more people in heated rooms) was what caused the exponential incline in winter.
> 
> ...



This post, and your other one above, I get where you're coming from but unlike you, I don't believe ANY of the infection stats because the PCR test, which is what drives those numbers, is not accurate... especially without knowing the Ct.

Same for rates of death. Refer back to my old post about West Palm Beach, Florida where a motorcycle accident, gunshot to the head and falling off a ladder were all listed as COVID deaths. And you would be an ignorant fool to think that those 3 cases are the ONLY ONES where the cause of death was incorrectly listed as COVID.

Stop believing the narrative, they are pushing an agenda.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Schools require staff and students to wear masks at all time while in class so how could opening up schools cause a spike? Unless..... masks are useless? Or maybe the sports are to blame? Fine, ban all sports. I'm fine with that. But if they do that, and schools STILL see spikes, then what?


Here - this is how Vandetbilt university is explaining it to parents in the schools scenario:


> Contact investigations for SARS-CoV-2 have confirmed community transmission rates that are consistent with droplet and contact spread (household attack rates of 10%, health care and community attack rates of <1%, and R0 [the effective reproduction number, or average number of new infections caused by an infected individual during their infection] of 2-3),5 and much different than for airborne viral pathogens, such as varicella zoster virus or measles (household attack rates of 85%-90% and R0 of 10-18).
> 
> This implies that simple and easy-to-use barriers to respiratory droplets, along with hand hygiene and avoidance of touching the face, could help prevent community transmission when physical distancing and stay-at-home measures are relaxed or no longer possible. The 2 major options for such barriers are face masks and face shields.


This isnt entirely truthful, because its "houshold attack rates and community attack rates" - while preventative measures are taken, and also part of the transmission vector of covid is airborn (but one with much lower likelyhood than the droplet infection vector...) But they are essentially saying, that with masks in place and stay at home relaxed - you could end up at similar community infection rates.. 

src: https://webcache.googleusercontent....ulty-in-classrooms/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=at


----------



## Windaga (Jan 6, 2021)

Most likely. My district isn't requiring them, though a lot of the teachers and faculty are going to get it. I usually don't get the flu shot, but if it makes my students and co-workers feel more comfortable, then I'll probably get it. Of course, I haven't discussed it with my partner, but our stances are pretty similar. My sister got hers a few days ago, as her hospital is requiring active staff to get it. She's doing well, though she did say she felt crappy the very next day.


----------



## cubes (Jan 6, 2021)

Hell to the Naw


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

Better summery of how those curves are 'supposed' to develop.
https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication Files/20-112_4278525d-ccf2-4f8a-b564-2e95d0e7ca5b.pdf

Because - even if nothing is done, growth is not supposed to sustain an 'exponential rise' forever.






R = reproduction rate (how many people does one person infect)
D = the average number of days between the moment that someone is infected and the moment that they infect another person (specific for Covid 19)


----------



## wartutor (Jan 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Schools require staff and students to wear masks at all time while in class so how could opening up schools cause a spike? Unless..... masks are useless? Or maybe the sports are to blame? Fine, ban all sports. I'm fine with that. But if they do that, and schools STILL see spikes, then what?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


I don't know about you but it's damn near impossible to get all the adults to wear masks (and when they do most dont do it correctly) to have students do it and do it right gets into the impossible area, especially the younger you get. As soon as schools opened here numbers exploded (was relatively low here before that) its a known fact schools are super spreaders (whether it's the flu, common cold, or any other transmitted disease) adding sports made it worse. (Allowed wrestling and tackle football both high contact sports but "hey we don't allow them to shake hands afterwards so it's all OK. At least 2 times a week we would hear on the radio of a  football team having to quit playing for 2 weeks because half (or more) of the team tested positive. They practiced social distancing (then packed 30+ kids on the bus to and from school) they never should of opened until a vaccine was out and administered.


----------



## notimp (Jan 6, 2021)

wartutor said:


> I don't know about you but it's damn near impossible to get all the adults to wear masks (and when they do most dont do it correctly) to have students do it and do it right gets into the impossible area, especially the younger you get. As soon as schools opened here numbers exploded (was relatively low here before that) its a known fact schools are super spreaders (whether it's the flu, common cold, or any other transmitted disease) adding sports made it worse. (Allowed wrestling and tackle football both high contact sports but "hey we don't allow them to shake hands afterwards so it's all OK. At least 2 times a week we would hear on the radio of a  football team having to quit playing for 2 weeks because half (or more) of the team tested positive. They practiced social distancing (then packed 30+ kids on the bus to and from school) they never should of opened until a vaccine was out and administered.


Here read this.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020...could-lead-to-much-faster-spread-of-covid-19/

Dont focus in on 'high income' vs 'low income' countries, at the first chance, but just read it for the two scenarios.


----------



## NeSchn (Jan 7, 2021)

One week update. My arm hasn't fallen off yet, it started to get sore the first evening I got the shot, it amplified the next day, it was nothing unmanageable, and the pain was basically gone by Friday.

Not sure if related or not to the vaccine, but the back of my eyes were hurting from Friday until sometime Sunday evening. Maybe it was caused by staring at the computer screen as I work at the computer from Wednesday til Sunday, or stress, or it could've been the 5G receptors planting themselves into my eyes.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jan 7, 2021)

And now ?

SARS-CoV-2-Variante B.1.1.7 is waiting in Front of the Door....

I am (still) not a Pessimist,but Vaccination is in my Opinion useless.....what helps a "Relief of Symptoms" when now "again" the Hospitals are getting overloaded and overrun with the Version 2.0 Patients...

It is maybe finally Time to see the Truth - we never will or can control this Virus.
I am not really a "good" believer,but I see it as God's "Holy Wrath".

We have mistreated,raped and abused this World long enough.
Maybe it is Time to say goodbye......


----------



## leon315 (Jan 7, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I've seen this thing a lot, and I can't agree more.
> 
> View attachment 238595


Just wondering, what is Six-feet?? Homo of Neanderthal?


----------



## notimp (Jan 7, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I've seen this thing a lot, and I can't agree more.


If the masks work, why the six feet?
Because cloth and surgical masks dont filter the virus, they just filter mukus, meaning, there is an aerosol cloud around people, that could also lead to infections. Also - nobody believes, that most people are now washing their hands more regularely - so you better tell them, not to be all over each other - still as part of mukus based transmission prevention.

Basically, if mask damp, and people touch mask > mukus on hands, please do not shake hands.

If the six feet works, why the masks?
So you dont spit into the next persons face, while talking, so you reduce the volume of aerosols around any person - which prevents larger concentration of the virus in aerosols at places of mass gatherings. (subways, supermarkets, ...)

If both work -
Yes, now you are onto something.. 

- why the lockdowns?
Because masks reduce the likelyhood to transmit it by a flat amount. If that flat amount is not enough anymore (think - to prevent hospitals of getting overrun), harsher methods are implemented. Also both masks and distance rules work as well as peoples compliance to them. But lets not blame it on people - lets just call it what it is, both are just a flat reduction to infection rate - not a solution.

If all three work, why the rushed vaccine?
First, at least in europe not rushed in terms of testing, but rushed in terms of legal fasttracking (so the rubber stamping process after the review process is faster, funding was given out for free, financial risks of companies were bought up, ...)

Because its the solution. The thing that works (besides lockdowns, which are very costly), to drive the infection curves down to zero. Masks slowed propagation down, but sadly didnt eliminate contagion entirely.

(Certain kinds of masks would have, but they never were thinkable for large scale public use - people couldnt wear them all they, it would have reduced their effectiveness at work, and simply - they werent available in those numbers.)

If the vaccine is safe - why no liability clause?
Basically politicians taking legal risks away from companies, (For that they need to be fairly sure, that nothing bad happens at scale.) and onto themselves. By doing this they can ensure that rollout is faster. Also more risky - but its calculated risk. (Politicians betting their political careers on it.) Why do you want a faster rollout? Economic reasons.

Backbenches all better now?


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 7, 2021)

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...ter-receiving-first-dose-pfizer-covid-vaccine

One of the comments was pretty funny and spot on:

""We have to see if the vaccine was the cause of death."  Interesting, I thought everyone that died did so from Covid.  Fall out of a tree... died from Covid.  Shark attack.... covid.   Morbid obesity.... covid.  Covid vaccine..... more research must be done."


----------



## Rj.MoG (Jan 7, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...ter-receiving-first-dose-pfizer-covid-vaccine
> 
> One of the comments was pretty funny and spot on:
> 
> ""We have to see if the vaccine was the cause of death."  Interesting, I thought everyone that died did so from Covid.  Fall out of a tree... died from Covid.  Shark attack.... covid.   Morbid obesity.... covid.  Covid vaccine..... more research must be done."


Sir i've linked some vital information below regarding the dangers of the covid vaccine that you might find interesting

https://www.clinical-partners.co.uk/for-adults/autism-and-aspergers/adult-autism-test


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 7, 2021)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-weeks-receiving-Pfizer-Covid-19-vaccine.html


----------



## Bladexdsl (Jan 8, 2021)

great that fucking mutated strain is in my area were on full lockdown for 3 days


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 8, 2021)

In other vaccine news..... https://www.zerohedge.com/political/cuomos-covid-vaccination-rollout-ny-total-mess

FTA: "As of Thursday evening, NY State had reported just 430K vaccination doses administered, out of more than 1MM distributed."

....hundred of thousands of un-used doses. Why aren't you gbatempers in New Your rushing to the hospital to help them fill their quotas?

Let me guess..... you would if you lived there huh? Or, you live there but just can't get off work, right?

And, don't forget to mask up during sex! https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/bbc-tells-people-wear-face-masks-during-sex


----------



## wartutor (Jan 8, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> In other vaccine news..... https://www.zerohedge.com/political/cuomos-covid-vaccination-rollout-ny-total-mess
> 
> FTA: "As of Thursday evening, NY State had reported just 430K vaccination doses administered, out of more than 1MM distributed."
> 
> ...


Now how the he'll am I suppose to eat ass with a mask on. Besides I'm eating ass I don't think I'm to worried about anything else. . Why would any of those new Yorkers run out and get vaccinated. They get more money from the government siting around doing nothing than they make in a week. If they get the vaccine they might be expected to go back to work 



Rj.MoG said:


> Sir i've linked some vital information below regarding the dangers of the covid vaccine that you might find interesting
> 
> https://www.clinical-partners.co.uk/for-adults/autism-and-aspergers/adult-autism-test



According to that link I have a very high probability of having autism and/or aspergers so now I finally have an excuse to be a dick (other than my name being richard.) Seriously though it told me I needed to see my doctor and seek a more indepth test and treatment should I be worried lol. I'm 42 I think if I do have something like that I'm preaty good with it


----------



## notimp (Jan 8, 2021)

wartutor said:


> Now how the he'll am I suppose to eat ass with a mask on. Besides I'm eating ass I don't think I'm to worried about anything else. . Why would any of those new Yorkers run out and get vaccinated. They get more money from the government siting around doing nothing than they make in a week. If they get the vaccine they might be expected to go back to work


Population density:

New York City: 38242 people per square kilometer
US (in general): 36 people per square kilometer

They also had the harshest lockdowns. And the highest death numbers.






src: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us




src: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/

So at their peak, more than one third of all US deaths were New Yorkers.

But they wouldnt want to have Covid 19 end (despite the harshest lockdown measures in the US), because - they've got more 'free' money from the state, than you've got.

Get a brain. No one called for an idiots opinion. Sorry, a greedy idiots opinion.


----------



## roamin (Jan 8, 2021)

Bladexdsl said:


> great that fucking mutated strain is in my area were on full lockdown for 3 days



Lol 3 day lockdown for a virus that lasts longer then 3 days in your body....... clearly not the brightest people running your state.


----------



## wartutor (Jan 9, 2021)

notimp said:


> Population density:
> 
> New York City: 38242 people per square kilometer
> US (in general): 36 people per square kilometer
> ...


That's why they should be the first ones in line stop the deaths and get back to norm. Instead they just sit there and whine cause they can't get back to norm


----------



## notimp (Jan 9, 2021)

wartutor said:


> That's why they should be the first ones in line stop the deaths and get back to norm. Instead they just sit there and whine cause they can't get back to norm


To stop the deaths you need vaccine in large enough doses to get 60-70% of people immunized, that will happen throughout the year. US is suited to reach that level of immunization relatively early (afaik) compared to other countries.

And this is driven by who financed the specific vaccines development (there are several) and by who bought into the order books (who can order what contingent - how fast). So people could do handstands on the streets, and the results would not come in faster.


----------



## subcon959 (Jan 10, 2021)

I would happily get the vaccine, but I had a chat with a healthcare professional the other day and was told it would probably be 2022 before it reached my demographic. So much for Boris claiming everyone will be offered one by Autumn.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 10, 2021)

Most of the Pfizer Vaccine in Austria goes to the eldery in retirement homes.
I have been thinking of dressing up as a elder to get a vaccine.
I call "Metal Gear Grampa".


----------



## CloudStrife190100 (Jan 10, 2021)

I'll give it few months and see how it goes with other people who have it first


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 12, 2021)

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...then-it-vaccinates-residents-and-deaths-begin


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...then-it-vaccinates-residents-and-deaths-begin


There is no evidence that the vaccine caused COVID-19 deaths.


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

I'm actually kind of scared by the number of brain dead people on this thread.

If it's offered to me for free, then yes, I will receive the vaccine at some point in the future. For now, I am extremely low risk so I'm probably last on the list to get it. My dad will probably be getting it in a couple months time.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There is no evidence that the vaccine caused COVID-19 deaths.



There's no evidence that the vaccine protects you from COVID either.   

Still waiting on YOU, to provide ONE, just ONE example of a Republican being a hypocrite. Come on.... if you do it, I'll leave GBATemp and never come back.


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> There's no evidence that the vaccine protects you from COVID either.


Uhhh... What about the clinical trials that inevitably had to be successful for the product to be approved? Don't tell me you're one of these 'Ther poysonin us' gits.



gene0915 said:


> Still waiting on YOU, to provide ONE, just ONE example of a Republican being a hypocrite. Come on.... if you do it, I'll leave GBATemp and never come back.


This isn't the thread to have that debate.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> There's no evidence that the vaccine protects you from COVID either.


The evidence overwhelmingly suggests the vaccine protects people from contracting COVID-19.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness.html


----------



## Jayro (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I've seen this thing a lot, and I can't agree more.
> 
> View attachment 238595


If the Brakes on a car work, why the seatbelt?
If the seatbelt works, why the brakes?
If the airbags work, why have both?
If all 3 work, Why have Insurance?

(See how DUMB that sounds?)

And the vaccine wasn't rushed. As we have advance in science, we aren't starting from scratch. We use other vaccines as a base, and go from there. The testing results were proven effective, so it was approved by the FDA. Please use your brain before posting in the future.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The evidence overwhelmingly suggests the vaccine protects people from contracting COVID-19.
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness.html



Come on Noonan, you can do it. Just give me ONE example of ANY Republican being a hypocrite.

Are you in New York? Going to get one of the hundred of thousands of vaccines that nobody wants to take up there?


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Just give me ONE example of ANY Republican being a hypocrite.


Ok I'll bite.

Any republican who dismissed the 'Russia rigged the 2016 elections' and now supports the election fraud bs.

There. Bye now, see you never gene


----------



## Jayro (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Because people aren't social distancing, wearing masks, etc. Don't pretend you are just now learning this information for the first time.


This idiot is being just as dense as every Trump-supporting anti-masker asshole. Selfish, senseless, and foolish. I wish they were banned on sight for spewing hatred and stirring up stupidity as facts.


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Are you in New York? Going to get one of the hundred of thousands of vaccines that nobody wants to take up there?


No, seriously, it's ok. You Americans keep being brain dead and keep yourself burdened with shitty, stale, unmoving politics and COVID while the rest of the world recovers and China gains increasing influence while America falls behind, and then you can blame everyone but yourselves when China overtakes you and America is stuck in isolationist civil unrest, slowly regressing into a third world shithole and China controls the world economy.


----------



## Jayro (Jan 12, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> Ok I'll bite.
> 
> Any republican who dismissed the 'Russia rigged the 2016 elections' and now supports the election fraud bs.
> 
> There. Bye now, see you never gene


I don't think he understands that _WE _rioted in the streets this summer because *we're tired of being killed for doing nothing wrong*.
The MAGAs marched in the streets because they didn't get their way.

*WE ARE NOT THE SAME!*


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

Jayro said:


> I don't think he understands that _WE _rioted in the streets this summer because *we're tired of being killed for doing nothing wrong*.
> The MAGAs marched in the streets because they didn't get their way.
> 
> *WE ARE NOT THE SAME!*


Here's another one: Any republican who laughed at the utter lunatics who were in shambles over Hillary losing and memed the shit out of them, and is now being an utter lunatic in shambles because Trump lost. That's two now @gene0915, are you sure your promise was a good idea?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Come on Noonan, you can do it. Just give me ONE example of ANY Republican being a hypocrite.
> 
> Are you in New York? Going to get one of the hundred of thousands of vaccines that nobody wants to take up there?


I never mentioned Republican hypocrisy, and it's irrelevant to your lies about COVID-19.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 12, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> No, seriously, it's ok. You Americans keep being brain dead and keep yourself burdened with shitty, stale, unmoving politics and COVID while the rest of the world recovers and China gains increasing influence while America falls behind, and then you can blame everyone but yourselves when China overtakes you and America is stuck in isolationist civil unrest, slowly regressing into a third world shithole and China controls the world economy.



https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/uk-government-may-only-let-people-out-once-week

You people in the UK keep letting your government lock you in your houses.


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/uk-government-may-only-let-people-out-once-week
> 
> You people in the UK keep letting your government lock you in your houses.


That's a non-response. I'll take that as a W.

Also, that's a fringe lunatic webshite that I've never heard of. That would never be considered a credible source in this country.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I never mentioned Republican hypocrisy.



Keep dancing around it.

Watch everyone, I guarantee you that Lacius will NEVER EVER post a single.... not ONE SINGLE example of a Republican being a hypocrite. He will NEVER do it because he knows I'll pwn him!


----------



## osm70 (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/uk-government-may-only-let-people-out-once-week
> 
> You people in the UK keep letting your government lock you in your houses.


Isn't that a good thing? Or at least better than refusing to wear a facemask and rioting about any and all lockdown rules no matter what they are?


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

osm70 said:


> Isn't that a good thing? Or at least better than refusing to wear a facemask and rioting about any and all lockdown rules no matter what they are?


Without divulging into my thoughts about COVID and pissing off many, many people, while I am aware that COVID is real and is killing people, I would never support something like which is claimed in the article. Besides, that is not a credible source for UK news and judging by the imagery on the article, it's a right wing propaganda site. Take it with a pinch of salt, we're not getting locked in our houses 6 days a week.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Keep dancing around it.
> 
> Watch everyone, I guarantee you that Lacius will NEVER EVER post a single.... not ONE SINGLE example of a Republican being a hypocrite. He will NEVER do it because he knows I'll pwn him!


I'm not going to bite, troll. Your efforts to change the topic aren't going to work.


----------



## osm70 (Jan 12, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> Without divulging into my thoughts about COVID and pissing off many, many people, while I am aware that COVID is real and is killing people, I would never support something like which is claimed in the article. Besides, that is not a credible source for UK news and judging by the imagery on the article, it's a right wing propaganda site. Take it with a pinch of salt, we're not getting locked in our houses 6 days a week.


OK, to be honest, I didn't actually read the article. I was replying to what you said and I didn't thinkit's something like this.


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm not going to bite, troll. Your efforts to change the topic aren't going to work.


I gave him 2 examples of republican hypocrisy and choked him out of giving me a valid response. He's not pwning anyone lmfao


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> I gave him 2 examples of republican hypocrisy and choked him out of giving me a valid response. He's not pwning anyone lmfao


It's not difficult to come up with examples of conservative hypocrisy, but I never brought it up once, and I'm not the kind to allow others to dictate what points I'll defend, nor am I the type to allow blatant misdirections.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Because people aren't social distancing, wearing masks, etc. Don't pretend you are just now learning this information for the first time.


If everybody is staying home, why would we need to wear masks or socially distance?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If everybody is staying home, why would we need to wear masks or socially distance?


Mask-wearing and social distancing is what people should be doing when they're not staying at home.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Mask-wearing and social distancing is what people should be doing when they're not staying at home.


But didn't you say that the total death rate in 2020 was lower because everybody stayed home?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> But didn't you say that the total death rate in 2020 was lower because everybody stayed home?


No, you tried to make that argument.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> No, you tried to make that argument.





Lacius said:


> People have pointed out to you already that deaths have gone down in part because people are sheltering in place. You are engaging in, at best, willful ignorance. At worst, you're intentionally deceiving people and encouraging behavior that can get people sick and/or killed.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

@UltraSUPRA You should quote my whole post next time.


Lacius said:


> This is irrelevant to the fact that COVID-19 has killed 302,261 Americans. I don't know why I need to say this.
> If we dropped a nuclear bomb on a city with a population less than 0.4 million (to keep the total deals below 2.9M), this meme would be just as helpful (i.e. not at all helpful).
> This data is provisional and may be inaccurate.
> People have pointed out to you already that deaths have gone down in part because people are sheltering in place. You are engaging in, at best, willful ignorance. At worst, you're intentionally deceiving people and encouraging behavior that can get people sick and/or killed.
> Grow up or grow a brain. You're an idiotic asshole, and I no longer consider your age to be an excuse for your petulant behavior.


In short, I never made the argument that deaths were lower in 2020 compared to other years.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> @UltraSUPRA You should quote my whole post next time.
> 
> In short, I never made the argument that deaths were lower in 2020 compared to other years.


I know. The thing is, I said that total deaths in 2020 were lower. Because they were.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I know. The thing is, I said that total deaths in 2020 were lower. Because they were.


You don't have to look far to see my previous post on the subject.

You don't know that 2020 deaths were lower.
It wouldn't matter if they were.
What's your point?


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Jan 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You don't have to look far to see my previous post on the subject.
> 
> You don't know that 2020 deaths were lower.
> It wouldn't matter if they were.
> What's your point?


1. It's 2021. We know.
2. So deaths only matter if they're COVID?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> 1. It's 2021. We know.


Source?



UltraSUPRA said:


> 2. So deaths only matter if they're COVID?


Whether or not the total deaths in a year have decreased is irrelevant to whether or not a major cause of death is important and/or real. For example, if we nuked a city of 367,000 innocent Americans, saying "Well, total deaths this year are down" is irrelevant to the conversation about the city that was nuked, whether or not the city was nuked, whether or not it was bad the city was nuked, what could have been done to prevent that city from being nuked, and what we can do to prevent other cities from being nuked.


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 12, 2021)

"Mandatory masks to stop the spread has the same energy as outlawing junk food to cure obesity. Doctors would also advocate for both" Sums up the person we are talking to here.


----------



## notimp (Jan 14, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> I do genuinely do see your points, however I also see others points as well. In a perfect world we wouldn't need vaccine because it would be virus free or we have a cure-all medicine that protects us from these outbreaks. However we don't live in a perfect world.





notimp said:


> Funnily enough, RNA vaccination might be a way to that 'perfect world'.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine
> 
> Can be adopted to any illness (theoretically), and that very fast.





RandomUser said:


> Nanites probably gets you there faster or closer.



mRNA vaccine against MS in development:
https://www.merkur.de/leben/gesundh...-tierversuch-studie-menschen-zr-90165056.html (german)

mRNA vaccines against Zika, HIV and Nipah in development.
https://www.modernatx.com/pipeline



via blog.fefe.de


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 14, 2021)

notimp said:


> mRNA vaccine against MS in development:
> https://www.merkur.de/leben/gesundh...-tierversuch-studie-menschen-zr-90165056.html (german)
> 
> mRNA vaccines against Zika, HIV and Nipah in development.
> https://www.modernatx.com/pipeline


I'm all for new vaccines but a HIV vaccine seems kinda redundant, at least in the West considering its transmission is rapidly declining due to improving treatments and prevention. But I guess it would still be useful in the developing world where it's still spreading.

Also, how do you vaccinate against MS? That's caused by your own immune system attacking myelin sheaths on neurons is it not?


----------



## notimp (Jan 14, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> I'm all for new vaccines but a HIV vaccine seems kinda redundant, at least in the West considering its transmission is rapidly declining due to improving treatments and prevention. But I guess it would still be useful in the developing world where it's still spreading.
> 
> Also, how do you vaccinate against MS? That's caused by your own immune system attacking myelin sheaths on neurons is it not?


The body is triggered (programmed  ) into producing (parts of the) antigenes, that trigger the illness, which in return hightens the bodies immune tolerance over time.

Study: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6525/145.full

See also: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html
https://qz.com/1944566/what-is-an-mrna-vaccine-and-how-does-it-work/
(In case this is not clear to lurkers: This is just about mRNA vaccines, for COVID 19 there also exist conventional ones or ones where the virus genome is 'spliced' to develep an immune response against a certain protein as well.)


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 14, 2021)

notimp said:


> The body is triggered (programmed  ) into producing (parts of the) the antigenes, that trigger the illness, which in return hightens the bodies immune tolerance over time.


Wouldn't it make more sense to trigger an immune response to the auto-antibodies responsible for MS, so that if the body starts producing them, the immune system directly mounts a counter-response to the auto-antibodies and kills the immune cells producing them? I'm not a biologist and I can't seem to access the study in question so I might just not be understanding how it works but I fail to see how directly triggering the illness protects from it. Does triggering the illness early mean you can essentially mount an immune response against your own malfunctioning immune cells?


----------



## notimp (Jan 14, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> Wouldn't it make more sense to trigger an immune response to the auto-antibodies responsible for MS, so that if the body starts producing them, the immune system directly mounts a counter-response to the auto-antibodies and kills the immune cells producing them? I'm not a biologist and I can't seem to access the study in question so I might just not be understanding how it works but I fail to see how directly triggering the illness protects from it. Does triggering the illness early mean you can essentially mount an immune response against your own malfunctioning immune cells?


I'm not a microbiologist.


----------



## NeSchn (Jan 15, 2021)

Hey y'all, back again for an update on my vaccine.

So, last Friday my Mom tested positive for COVID-19. I took her to take the test. We were unmasked in the car as we were certain it was just a cold as she hasn't gone anywhere and we've only been seeing immediate family. So naturally, my father and I had to get tested. Again, in the car with him unmasked because at this point if my Mom has it we both definitely have it as we weren't isolated from each other, our house isn't big enough for that to happen (I live with them still).

He got his results back yesterday, he's positive. I got mine back today, I'm negative and have felt no symptoms this past week at all, so I don't think its a false negative. Maybe its proof that even after the first shot of the vaccine there's some immunity? I haven't been keeping my distance from them or anything and have been around both of them unmasked, so, its a possibility. I get my second dose on the 27th.

By the way, both of my parents are doing fine luckily. Mild symptoms, the normal cold like symptoms accompanied with the loss of taste and smell, etc. We definitely got lucky, an old coworker of mines Dad just passed a way this week from it along with a few other older people in my neighborhood.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jan 15, 2021)

My Parents-in-Law now "restricted" Contact to my Wife and me...No further Contact until EVERYONE is vaccinationed...
THAT is the good Way ? Really ? Oh dear....

*searches for his Aryan certificate....*


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 15, 2021)

My family are both Senior Doctors and Professors, so my professional circle overlaps at least on both the Fields of Medicine and Higher Education.

From the former Field, I have personally known at least 15 people who passed away from COVID-19 in 2020; they were diagnosed with COVID-19, taken to hospital for treatment and passed away notwithstanding.

From the latter Field, I have personally known at least 75 people who passed away from COVID-19 in 2020; exactly the same procedure and outcome, so there is no misunderstanding of causality in the aforementioned cases.

In total, that is over 90 people, in what seems to be the highest-risk Occupational Fields in my circle - Medicine and Higher Education. 

This Comment is for those that don't believe COVID-19 can kill.
I just hope it doesn't take someone close to you to realise that it can.


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 15, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> My family are both Senior Doctors and Professors, so my professional circle overlaps at least on both the Fields of Medicine and Higher Education.
> 
> From the former Field, I have personally known at least 15 people who passed away from COVID-19 in 2020; they were diagnosed with COVID-19, taken to hospital for treatment and passed away notwithstanding.
> 
> ...


"BuT iTs ThE 5g AnD tHe VaCcInEs ThE gOvErNmEnT aRe GiViNg Us!!!!!"


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 15, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> "BuT iTs ThE 5g AnD tHe VaCcInEs ThE gOvErNmEnT aRe GiViNg Us!!!!!"



We very well can't control what others decide, but at least we've done all we can to make those decisions informed.

As such, in all of my circle's deaths, it was related to the amount of people they came in contact with on a daily basis as it pertains to a greater risk; Doctors and University Professors do their best to help the community, which is commendable but can be fatal.

Some patients are just idiots to be sick with COVID-19 in the first place in their disregard for public safety, as are some University students.

If my Comment helps even one future Hospital and University | School Staff avoid unnecessary death, then it's worth the effort to type here.


----------



## NeSchn (Jan 16, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> "BuT iTs ThE 5g AnD tHe VaCcInEs ThE gOvErNmEnT aRe GiViNg Us!!!!!"


I FEEL THE 5G INSIDE OF ME.


----------



## SG854 (Jan 16, 2021)

No, not taking it. I swim in shit. I dive in sewage water. All the shit helps make my immune system stronger. So I don't need a vaccine.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 16, 2021)

SG854 said:


> No, not taking it. I swim in shit. I dive in sewage water. All the shit helps make my immune system stronger. So I don't need a vaccine.


You will get stronger if you survive a Covid infection. That is if you survive.
You also have a high chance of infecting others with the virus.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jan 16, 2021)

Dodain47 said:


> You also have a high chance of infecting others with the virus.



Also when you Vaccinated.
Your Symptoms are getting mitigated.

A Fact,that many,many,many People "forget" to mention.....


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 16, 2021)

SG854 said:


> All the shit helps make my immune system stronger


This isn't how your immune system works. Your immune system builds resistance to every pathogen that invades your body, if you survive the infection. This immunity is pathogen-specific; memory cells that have learned to effectively kill pathogenic _E. coli_, a bacterium you probably frequently encouter if you 'dive in sewage water', will do absolutely fuck all against SARS-CoV-2. Memory cells that are specific to normal human coronaviruses may offer some sort of limited resistance, but no immunity, and memory cells that aren't specific to any coronaviruses will not help whatsoever, and you might as well not have any memory cells at all. The only memory cells that can effectively make you highly resistant or immune to COVID-19 are those that have become specific to SARS-CoV-2. The memory cells you've developed to pathogens in sewage are specific to several species of bacteria, which offers no help to any viral infection.

In children, I agree that they have to get dirty sometimes and there is such a thing as being too clean, as in those early years the immune system needs stimulation and exercise to mature and promote a healthy relationship between the immune system, the bacteria inside of you and the bacteria in the environment. But in adults with a mature immune system, higher-than-average exposure to pathogens has little effect. Of course, adults do need to come into contact with normal circulating pathogens to maintain resistance to them, but the benefit exposure brings peaks around this normal level. At higher levels than this you are just putting your immune system under extra stress, which will decrease its ability to fight in the long run.

The best ways for an adult to maintain a healthy immune system, both innate and adaptive, is through exercise, adequate nutrition and avoiding as much psychological stress as possible. With COVID, your best defence is your innate immune system, which covers physical barriers such as mucous and epithelial cells that line your respiratory system, and also the innate cellular response such as inflammation and immune cells like macrophages that attack anything that appears to be foreign, dying or neoplastic, so exercising and generally keeping healthy is important during this pandemic.

But back to the point, refusing a free or very cheap vaccine because 'I haz a stwong immune sistem' is a ridiculous and infantile argument. You have a strong immune system? Great. The vaccine will be more effective for you because your adaptive response will be stronger and the memory cells you build from the vaccine will last longer. That also means you can't pass the disease onto those with weaker immune systems than you for longer as well. The point of giving young people the vaccine isn't to stop young people from dying, because obviously they don't die from COVID, but to halt the spread of the disease so vulnerable people who might actually become seriously ill from it don't come into contact with it from younger people who have no symptoms and have no idea they are passing the virus on.

In the same way swimming in sewage water doesn't protect you from measles, swimming in dirty water doesn't protect you from COVID-19 either.


----------



## SG854 (Jan 16, 2021)

Cryoraptor said:


> This isn't how your immune system works. Your immune system builds resistance to every pathogen that invades your body, if you survive the infection. This immunity is pathogen-specific; memory cells that have learned to effectively kill pathogenic _E. coli_, a bacterium you probably frequently encouter if you 'dive in sewage water', will do absolutely fuck all against SARS-CoV-2. Memory cells that are specific to normal human coronaviruses may offer some sort of limited resistance, but no immunity, and memory cells that aren't specific to any coronaviruses will not help whatsoever, and you might as well not have any memory cells at all. The only memory cells that can effectively make you highly resistant or immune to COVID-19 are those that have become specific to SARS-CoV-2. The memory cells you've developed to pathogens in sewage are specific to several species of bacteria, which offers no help to any viral infection.
> 
> In children, I agree that they have to get dirty sometimes and there is such a thing as being too clean, as in those early years the immune system needs stimulation and exercise to mature and promote a healthy relationship between the immune system, the bacteria inside of you and the bacteria in the environment. But in adults with a mature immune system, higher-than-average exposure to pathogens has little effect. Of course, adults do need to come into contact with normal circulating pathogens to maintain resistance to them, but the benefit exposure brings peaks around this normal level. At higher levels than this you are just putting your immune system under extra stress, which will decrease its ability to fight in the long run.
> 
> ...


I been grabbing my Dogs shit and smearing it all over my face. You telling me that doesn't work?


----------



## Cryoraptor (Jan 16, 2021)

SG854 said:


> I been grabbing my Dogs shit and smearing it all over my face. You telling me that doesn't work?


Oh ok, I only just caught on. Sarcasm detection skills failed me on that one.


----------



## notimp (Jan 19, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Trouble in COVID vaccine land:
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...inked-unusually-high-number-adverse-reactions
> 
> ...



Stop sharing FUD videos, with stock photos of physicians on the thumbnail. The zerohedge stuff we can at least discuss.. But the video just riles up.
edit: Not so much to discuss -


> Vaccine providers have been recommended to pause the administration of a specific lot of the #Moderna #COVID19 vaccine due to possible allergic reactions that are under investigation.


Specific lot means potential contamination, or production error - not 'vaccine suddently behaving in unexpected ways' (at least more likely than that). The Moderna Stuff was also the first vaccine that has reached my country, and we have had no problems administering it to people so far (finges crossed).

So the world encompasing conspiracy theory - might be a little too large for this one.

edit: Lot is quite sizeable though. 330000 doses.
https://www.latimes.com/california/...na-vaccine-allergic-reaction-california-batch

Effect:


> “That number, clustered together, was slightly higher than expected for the time period,” McDonald said. He said the health providers swapped out the batch of vaccines they were administering, “in the possible event” that reactions were connected.


Slightly higher than expected rates of allergic reactions.

Omg - world conspiracy! 

edit: In numbers:
They were vaccinating 5000 people (see latimes news) a day and less than 10 needed additional medical attention. (Probably meaning that they showed severe allergic reactions.)
https://www.marinij.com/2021/01/18/...-allergic-reactions-to-moderna-vaccine-batch/ (source for the 10 figure)

Still the safety procedure was triggered and they threw out all of the vaccine doses, that came from that batch. (Unsure if it would solve the 'issue', but doing it just in case - to minimize patient risk.)


edit: On the Pfizer Biontech vaccine we have the expected rate of allergic reactions:


> only about one in every 90,000 people, on average, will experience this adverse reaction. That’s less than 3 percent of the lifetime risk of dying from choking on food.


https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...a-show-allergic-reactions-covid-vaccines-cvd/

Which is A LOT lower.

edit: Moderna vaccine risk (expected rate of a severe allergic reaction) should also be around at 1:100000
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alison...ot-with-higher-than-usual-allergic-reactions/
so something went wrong here..

Now I did a calculation on that 3% of the lifetime risk of dying form choking on food example.

Not sure if I did it correctly, but if we go with 7 people of 5000 showed allergic reactions, this would be 4 times your lifetime risk of dying from choking on food.. 

Still thats a lot higher allergic rate than expected. Keep an eye out if they notice the same with other batches as well. 


edit: Bad news: Age might be a factor here:

Outch:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ut-vaccine-related-deaths-allergies-quicktake


----------



## notimp (Jan 19, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> What is with all these Trump supporting fascists:
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...nd-nearly-half-staff-decline-covid-19-vaccine
> 
> ...


Risk played up - for the staff its really close to nothing (if you dont find a second batch), for elederly folks taking the vaccine might be higher risk, maybe even up to 4x the risk of dying from choking on food in your lifetime, instead of only 3% of the risk of dying from choking on food in your lifetime.

Show them a bunch of the videos you post, and they really might become afraid.

At least I can tell you that the moderna vaccine also had to go through the european evaluation procedure - and we are also using it right now.

But if you arent spreading fear - keep an eye out on how the 'pause' will be argued away in California, because imho there is something there. The 'something is wrong here' story is not entirely bogus. Just risk is still not as high as you perceive it. 

Also those (less than ten, lets say seven) 7 out of 5000 people that had a severe allergic shock after getting the moderna vaccine, still have not died - so its probably max 2x the risk of dying from choking on food in your lifetime, not 4x. Or something like that.. 


edit: This also potentially could be good news:


> *All of the reactions appear to be tied to a single community clinic that was administering the batch.* The clinic reportedly closed for several hours after a string of adverse reactions occurred.


from the source you linked.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jan 20, 2021)

How comes,that we do not read about the first deaths after Corona Vaccinations in this Thread......

Ah....maybe because they were ONLY VERY OLD PEOPLE....I think.....


----------



## susi91 (Jan 20, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> How comes,that we do not read about the first deaths after Corona Vaccinations in this Thread......



Because that is always completely unrelated to the vaccine itself  

It's just about counting all deaths (somehow) related to covid 19 virus...


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jan 20, 2021)

susi91 said:


> Because that is always completely unrelated to the vaccine itself
> 
> It's just about counting all deaths (somehow) related to covid 19 virus...



.....it should be mentioned,both Sides......not only the "Vaccination is super" (good).


----------



## susi91 (Jan 20, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> .....it should be mentioned,both Sides......not only the "Vaccinaton is super" (good).



Yes  and the manufacturer should take care of the product liability


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 21, 2021)

Now that the orange clown is out and sleepy Joe is in, surprise surprise: https://www.zerohedge.com/economics...r-tests-produce-massive-covid-false-positives


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 21, 2021)

Guess the leadership in California is just begging for the return of super predato..... spreader events if they allow this:

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...outdoor-dining-ban-contributed-covid-19-surge

Don't the talking heads realize how ZOMG deadly COVID-19 is? We're just scratching the surface of herd immunity with getting the DNA alter life saving vaccine out to everyone and they want to start allowing indoor dining??????????

It's like COVID-19 had a shelf-life that expired on Jan 21. I wonder what event happened on Jan 20th to all of a sudden make COVID not so important and all the "experts" releasing talking points about getting people back to work and opening schools?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 21, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Guess the leadership in California is just begging for the return of super predato..... spreader events:
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...outdoor-dining-ban-contributed-covid-19-surge
> 
> ...


We are still very much in a deadly pandemic. Nothing changed January 20, other than having competent leadership in government now.

The vaccine does not alter one's DNA.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 21, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We are still very much in a deadly pandemic



Then why are these Trump supporting maniacs like Lori Lightfoot talking about opening up restaurants??????????

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0210114-mh6chxizsfgnbkwkypf6iyk6mi-story.html

.....doesn't she understand we are still very much in a deadly pandemic??????????????????

And more insanity in other parts of the world: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-21/coronavirus-restrictions-ease-greater-brisbane-masks/13069830

doesn't ANYONE understand we are still very much in a deadly pandemic???????????????????????????????????? Masks and vaccines for all until we don't record a single hospitalization/death from the super killer COVID-19 virus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111

And I agree, having a completely competent politician like Joe Biden at the wheel will steer this country into the greatest era EVER! With control of the presidency and congress, democrats are destined to create a utopia for us all!!!!!!!!!!1111111111 Nothing but good times ahead!


----------



## Valwinz (Jan 21, 2021)

Nope till i see how it goes


----------



## Lacius (Jan 21, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Then why are these Trump supporting maniacs like Lori Lightfoot talking about opening up restaurants??????????
> 
> https://www.chicagotribune.com/coro...0210114-mh6chxizsfgnbkwkypf6iyk6mi-story.html
> 
> ...


Yesterday was the deadliest day yet with regard to COVID-19 in the United States. 4,409 Americans died of the disease yesterday. Approximately 400,000 Americans have died so far.

Anecdotally, I've lost a great-aunt and a great-grandmother to the disease. A friend of mine lost an uncle the other day. Another friend of mine lost both parents. My coworker lost her mother. Don't be an asshole.


----------



## Valwinz (Jan 21, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We are still very much in a deadly pandemic. Nothing changed January 20, other than having competent leadership in government now.
> 
> The vaccine does not alter one's DNA.



are we? cuz Cnn just remove the death counter as soon as Biden won


----------



## Amez (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm undecided because I don't trust the rollout here in the UK.

Personally I feel the priority for the vaccine should be hospital staff, police etc and key workers.

Hospital staff = get close to Covid-19 every day.
Police = go to break up parties which are attended by Covid is a hoaxers.

If the hospital staff get ill, they can't work, they could possibly die, you can't just buy a new doctor or nurse and replace them within an hour,

The police workers keep people safe and key workers, i/e care workers and supermarket workers are keeping the country going.

Over 80's were vaccinated first, they've been told they still need to wear a mask, socially distance etc as even though the chances of them getting ill is reduced, they could still spread the virus to others, also there is a chunk of over 80's who don't go out a lot anyway and who have said the staying at home hasn't really affected them, 

So yeah to me the most logical thing to do would have been vaccinate the hospital workers first because we need them to be well and as safe as possible if we are to ever get out of this pandemic. 

I have nothing against the over 80's, my nan has had 2 doses of the Pfizer vaccine and I'm glad that there is less chance of her getting ill.

But...they say it usually takes 10 years to develop a vaccine... so as this one has taken less than a year... I can't help but feel the over 80's are being used to test it.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 21, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> are we? cuz Cnn just remove the death counter as soon as Biden won


I don't know what you're referring to, but:

We are still in the midst of a deadly pandemic, absolutely regardless of what CNN does or doesn't do.
CNN still has a COVID-19 death counter.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 21, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Yesterday was the deadliest day yet with regard to COVID-19 in the United States. 4,409 Americans died of the disease yesterday. Approximately 400,000 Americans have died so far.
> 
> Anecdotally, I've lost a great-aunt and a great-grandmother to the disease. A friend of mine lost an uncle the other day. Another friend of mine lost both parents. My coworker lost her mother. Don't be an asshole.



I know you won't directly answer my questions because..... well, you know    but I'll ask it anyway.

Q. What's your thoughts on Trump supporting, ignorant fascists like Lori Lightfoot calling for opening up restaurants and bars while we're in the middle of the deadliest pandemic known to mankind?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 21, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I know you won't directly answer my questions because..... well, you know    but I'll ask it anyway.
> 
> Q. What's your thoughts on Trump supporting, ignorant fascists like Lori Lightfoot calling for opening up restaurants and bars while we're in the middle of the deadliest pandemic known to mankind?


We are in the middle of the deadliest part of this pandemic. We probably shouldn't be opening restaurants and bars. The death numbers in Chicago and Illinois broadly are falling, but that doesn't mean it's time to reopen restaurants and bars.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 21, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We are in the middle of the deadliest part of this pandemic. We probably shouldn't be opening restaurants and bars. The death numbers in Chicago and Illinois broadly are falling, but that doesn't mean it's time to reopen restaurants and bars.



WOW, you actually addressed the question at hand, congrats! Now see, was that so difficult?

Good news, the deadliest pandemic known to mankind is easing up:

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...t-dr-fauci-confirms-joining-whos-gates-backed

........and all that was needed was for the democrats to gain full control of America!!!!!!!!! Guess this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the virus was thriving off of Trump's censoring of opinions that didn't fit the narrative and his anti-American, fascist rhetoric!


----------



## The Real Jdbye (Jan 21, 2021)

The amount of votes for "No" astound me. You guys realize we don't yet know if people who are vaccinated can still be carriers and infect people who aren't? You're all putting yourselves at risk, and as well as that, you'll be the ones stuck still social distancing, on lockdown, not being able to go out etc. when all the people who have been vaccinated are able to go back to living their normal lives.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 21, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Good news, the deadliest pandemic known to mankind is easing up:
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...t-dr-fauci-confirms-joining-whos-gates-backed


We are still in the middle of what's likely going to be the deadliest part of this pandemic. We are not out of the woods yet. As I already said, our deadliest day as a country was yesterday.


----------



## MMX (Jan 21, 2021)

I don't care about restaurants or whatever that can't open. I've been a neet/hikkikomori for most of my life and don't have money or the need to visit them. 

They should just permanently close at this point who cares. They aren't essential workers anyway and in a communist future that I envision not needed


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 22, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We are still in the middle of what's likely going to be the deadliest part of this pandemic. We are not out of the woods yet. As I already said, our deadliest day as a country was yesterday.



TOTALLY AGREE! I can't think of any single day that was more deadly than yesterday!!!!! I wonder why democratic mayor Lori Lightfoot and the liberal media are calling for restaurants and bars to re-open? That is something an uncaring, Trump supporting fascist would do! I guess they don't care about the public's health.  They are endangering everyone and this will create super spreader events!

At no point in human history have we faced a virus as deadly as COVID-19 yet democratic mayor Lori Lightfoot and the liberal media are calling for restaurants and bars to open back up!!!!!! INSANITY!


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 25, 2021)

COVID vaccine news: https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/merck-first-us-pharma-giant-abandon-covid-vaccine-efforts

Sounds like Merck leadership is comprised of a bunch of Trump supporting fascist!

Looks like this mutant strain of COVID-19 is a Trump supporting fascist too: https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...ive-against-mutant-south-african-covid-strain


----------



## notimp (Jan 25, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> COVID vaccine news: https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/merck-first-us-pharma-giant-abandon-covid-vaccine-efforts
> 
> Sounds like Merck leadership is comprised of a bunch of Trump supporting fascist!


Sounds like Merck is using old (/different) tech on vaccine development, that this time around doesnt pay.

Here is the logic - but please dont cry, just because it hasn't Trump in it. 

Merck does vaccines in a way that banks on getting the actual virus, farming it - killing it (paralyzing it) - then producing vaccines out of it.

Issues with this method and Covid:

- farming Covid, even in lab environments is a bad idea (hard to contain, means hard to handle)
- news reads, like they have time issues to produce large quantities because of this
- in an environment, where developing slightly different/new vaccines is important, because of quick mutations (think yearly flu shot)

as said before - vaccine development is a low margin, high quantity business (3-15 USD a shot), because regulation has made it that way (basically because you want the entire world vaccinated, otherwise you have pockets around the world, where a virus survives, and then can start spreading from again, so you better vaccinate those people as well - which you can only do, if vaccines arent a high margin business). So if they are slow vaccine, ready for last years strain - they simply cant compete.

Share price falling only by 2% after the announcement also means, they never planned on investing into newer vaccine manufacturing tech.


----------



## gene0915 (Jan 25, 2021)

Looks like the democratic governor of California, Gavin Newsom, is getting ready to endanger the lives of millions in his state by possibly preparing to lift the stay-at-home order! Doesn't he realize that we're still in the middle of the deadliest virus pandemic known to mankind? As this virus rages on and kills 0.12% of our population, I can't understand why democratic leaders like Gavin and Lori are willing to put peoples lives in danger like this.    We need to get that vaccine in the arms of the remaining 99.988% people in America before the COVID-19 kills them!

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...r-fauci-worries-jabs-wont-stop-mutant-strains

Update: and another one......... https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/cuomo-ny-ready-ease-pandemic-restrictions-after-holiday-spike

.....democratic governor Andrew Cuomo of NY is ready to ease restrictions on New Yorkers. WHAT IN THE WORLD IS WITH THESE DEMOCRATIC OFFICIALS? Don't they realize they are playing God with peoples' lives??!?! Why would they ease restrictions when dozens of people all over the USA are dropping dead from this super infectious deadly virus every few months?????? It's just weird that all of a sudden, they think the virus disappeared. I mean, months ago, the COVID-19 was killing people left and right (like it is now) and thankfully, we were able to do mail-in ballots for the presidential election to keep everyone safe. But now, all these democratic mayors and governors are talking about opening up their states. WHY??????? The virus is still out there. Still killing people. What a bizarre world we live in.


----------



## notimp (Jan 26, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Looks like the democratic governor of California, Gavin Newsom, is getting ready to endanger the lives of millions in his state by possibly preparing to lift the stay-at-home order! Doesn't he realize that we're still in the middle of the deadliest virus pandemic known to mankind? As this virus rages on and kills 0.12% of our population, I can't understand why democratic leaders like Gavin and Lori are willing to put peoples lives in danger like this.    We need to get that vaccine in the arms of the remaining 99.988% people in America before the COVID-19 kills them!
> 
> https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...r-fauci-worries-jabs-wont-stop-mutant-strains
> 
> ...


First its more than "a dozen people" dropping dead every month (in California currently its 400 a day), second - its always a decision made in tandem with trying not to kill your local economy (businesses) - third, its freaking too early for California to do it - based on European sensibilities:

see graphs here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/california/

Fourth - curfews will still stay in place:


> San Francisco will wait until Thursday to allow some businesses to reopen, Breed said — a delay health officials said was needed in order for the city to adjust to the new health orders. The city will allow outdoor dining to resume with a maximum of six people and two households at a table. Customers and employees at indoor or outdoor personal services must wear masks, and zoos and museums may open outdoors. Travelers from outside the Bay Area must still quarantine for 10 days on arrival in the city, and if they book a hotel in the Bay Area, they must stay for at least 10 days.
> 
> The city will also keep its 10 p.m.-to-5 a.m. curfew on all but essential activities.
> 
> ...


src: https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Newsom-lifts-state-stay-home-orders-15896015.php


----------



## AsPika2219 (Feb 1, 2021)

I will waiting for vaccines which coming to Malaysia at Feb 26 right now!


----------



## AsPika2219 (Feb 22, 2021)

FINALLY!!!! 







Pfizer vaccine comes to Malaysia!!!   Next job, get ready for injection by following 3 phases! Visit here for info!

https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/c...tch-of-covid-19-vaccines-arrives-in-malaysia/
https://www.theedgemarkets.com/article/malaysia-get-first-batch-covid19-vaccine-today

I will waiting for this one!


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Feb 28, 2021)

People are dying from the vaccine.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Feb 28, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> People are dying from the vaccine.



Yes,but nobody wants to hear that......the World is deaf to this......


----------



## Xzi (Feb 28, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> People are dying from the vaccine.


Source: boomers on Facebook.

People can and have drowned in a glass of water, so I'm sure there are outlier cases of people dying from the COVID vaccine due to age, other illness, or problems with their immune system, but it's exceedingly rare.  After all, the vaccine is just a small, usually inert dose of the virus.  It is possible to exhibit some of the more severe symptoms of COVID-19 after receiving the vaccine, but that just goes to show the actual virus would've hit those people even harder.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Feb 28, 2021)

Xzi said:


> People can and have drowned in a glass of water, so I'm sure there are outlier cases of people dying from the COVID vaccine due to age, other illness, or problems with their immune system, but it's exceedingly rare.


When old people die to the vaccine, it's because they're old.
When old people die to the China Virus itself, it's because of the China Virus.

This is what's known as a double standard.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 28, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> When old people die to the vaccine, it's because they're old.
> When old people die to the China Virus itself, it's because of the China Virus.
> 
> This is what's known as a double standard.


Being old increases your chances of death from anything and everything, I didn't think this was something that needed explaining.  If you're _just_ old though and have no other underlying conditions, I'd put your chances of dying from the vaccine at roughly 0.001%, while your chances of dying from catching COVID-19 are somewhere in the 10-20% range.


----------



## JaapDaniels (Feb 28, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Yes,but nobody wants to hear that......the World is deaf to this......


No they don't over 1,5 milion shots gave only 35 strange deaths, even if related it's not the vaccin.
reasons why people die after vaccin or while vaccinating:

People die random sometimes, and these moments are sometimes coinsidental close to an event,
Some people are fragile but don't know it yet those would've die anyway soon.
Some people are that extreme afraid of the needle that it causes cardiac arrest.
Other info, did you know people could even die by paracetamol? I'm pretty sure you'll use such medicine all the time.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Feb 28, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Being old increases your chances of death from anything and everything, I didn't think this was something that needed explaining.  If you're _just_ old though and have no other underlying conditions, I'd put your chances of dying from the vaccine at roughly 0.001%, while your chances of dying from catching COVID-19 are somewhere in the 10-20% range.


Yes, old people are more likely to die from everything -- that's obvious. But here's the thing.
(1) Earlier, you mentioned that the vaccine was actually injecting a tiny bit of the virus (like most vaccines). I thought that it was supposed to be an experimental RNA vaccine that simply gives your immune system the code for the antibodies and disappears, meaning that no symptoms would be even possible. If that's false, then who's to say that other aspects of the vaccine weren't lies? Like, for example, the total amount of vaccine-related deaths?
(2) It's been said that the even if you get the vaccine, you can still catch -- and spread -- the virus. This can actually prove to be more dangerous than not having the vaccine, as a recent study found no evidence of asymptomatic spread. If, and only if you take the vaccine, it's possible that you can become an asymptomatic carrier, meaning that there would actually be a purpose, however small it may be, for strapping that piece of paper over your face.
(3) Even if we suppose that the quack doctors were telling the truth the entire time, this doesn't excuse the fact that _politicians have been jacking up the numbers by *sending COVID-infected seniors to packed retirement homes.*_ If you're fine with that, then you have no argument.


----------



## Xzi (Feb 28, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I thought that it was supposed to be an experimental RNA vaccine that simply gives your immune system the code for the antibodies and disappears, meaning that no symptoms would be even possible.


You're correct, mRNA signals the body to build its own spike protein similar to those found on coronavirus cells.  The immune system then has a response very similar to the one it would have against the actual coronavirus however, and so mild fever symptoms are common after receiving the vaccine.  Particularly with the the second dose, because your immune system is quicker to recognize and break down the spike protein that second time around.



UltraSUPRA said:


> It's been said that the even if you get the vaccine, you can still catch -- and spread -- the virus. This can actually prove to be more dangerous than not having the vaccine, as a recent study found no evidence of asymptomatic spread. If, and only if you take the vaccine, it's possible that you can become an asymptomatic carrier, meaning that there would actually be a purpose, however small it may be, for strapping that piece of paper over your face.


I'm not sure what study you're referring to, but asymptomatic spread has been our biggest enemy from the start of this pandemic.  If everybody who caught the virus showed symptoms, we wouldn't need everybody to wear a mask, we'd just need those people to stay home for two weeks.  That said, the J&J vaccine has shown about 75% effectiveness in preventing asymptomatic spread in clinical trials, and that's definitely not nothing.  Further research is needed on asymptomatic spread after receiving one of the other two vaccines, but I'd wager they're roughly equally effective.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Even if we suppose that the quack doctors were telling the truth the entire time, this doesn't excuse the fact that _politicians have been jacking up the numbers by *sending COVID-infected seniors to packed retirement homes.*_ If you're fine with that, then you have no argument.


I have no idea what you're talking about.  If anything, the opposite is true: Florida, New York, and a few other states were fudging last year's death and infection numbers _down lower, _either to get on Trump's good side or to avoid his wrath and a loss of federal funding.  Now that there's an adult in the White House, there's no reason to manipulate the statistics in that manner.  Cuomo will get what's coming to him, as Democrats always hold their own accountable.  The same cannot be said of DeSantis and Republicans.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Feb 28, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I'm not sure what study you're referring to, but asymptomatic spread has been our biggest enemy from the start of this pandemic. If everybody who caught the virus showed symptoms, we wouldn't need everybody to wear a mask, we'd just need those people to stay home for two weeks.


https://principia-scientific.com/st...nds-no-evidence-of-asymptomatic-covid-spread/


----------



## Xzi (Feb 28, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> https://principia-scientific.com/st...nds-no-evidence-of-asymptomatic-covid-spread/


This is a study that was done in China, where the pandemic was handled much better overall.  Whether you're asymptomatic or not, it's much, much harder to spread the virus if 100% of the population are wearing masks, social distancing, and staying home when lockdown orders are in place.  Granted, that's under threat of reduction in social credit score, but still.

Here in America we did our own study by sending all the kids back to school prematurely.  I'm pretty sure you know how that ended up: with schools closing again a month or two later, and the rate of infections in school-adjacent communities spiking.


----------



## Flame (Mar 1, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Yes,but nobody wants to hear that......the World is deaf to this......



i didnt epxect a reponse like that from you alex. dont believe in UltraSUPRA's bullshit.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 1, 2021)

Flame said:


> i didnt epxect a reponse like that from you alex. dont believe in UltraSUPRA's bullshit.


The Truth hurts sometimes.....

I am a Vaccine Refuser,still.
Still not tested.
So I a am very inconsiderate,stubborn,egoistic and completely idiotic Person.
In the view of the Vaccine Supporters.
100 Percent.And that's what I stand for.

For the People who whants to be vaccinated,please do it,I am very,very glad you have the Option now.
As I said uncounted times - I leave them alone and from the Bottom of my Heart,I am very,very glad there is a Vaccine now for the People.


*But I am also expect to please leave ME also alone with my Opinion.
*
Did someone cares about the 1000s and 1000s Flu Dead in the last 20 Years ?
Did someone cares about the 1000s and 1000s AIDS Dead in the last 30 Years ?

Maybe let us think a little about this.....and please let everyone be as he/she wants to be and is.
Thank you.


----------



## djpannda (Mar 2, 2021)

@UltraSUPRA 

Donald And Melania Trump Quietly Received COVID-19 Vaccine In January

Ouch... lol I love the fact the anti-vaccers got played by Trump ...


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 2, 2021)

djpannda said:


> @UltraSUPRA
> 
> Donald And Melania Trump Quietly Received COVID-19 Vaccine In January
> 
> Ouch... lol I love the fact the anti-vaccers got played by Trump ...


>Huffington Post


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 2, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> >Huffington Post


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 2, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> >Huffington Post


Lmao he's in denial


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 2, 2021)

Lol xd.


----------



## AncientBoi (Mar 2, 2021)

I already got the first dose, so I might as well get the second. And it's just so that I Live to tell trump: kcuF uoY!


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 2, 2021)

I heard vaccines are rushed up it is unknown how our organic bodies might react. Allergies for bees are deadly.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 6, 2021)

I'm about to throw out a conspiracy theory. Get ready.

I recently watched the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, The 6th Day. The main conflict in the movie is the morality of human cloning, and also what Big Pharma could potentially do if given that power. One of the big revelations is that each clone is given a random terminal disease, giving each a lifespan of around 2-5 years. Of course, when their time runs out, they're simply recloned, as all it takes is a drop of blood and a retinal memory log to successfully clone anybody. However, imagine what would happen if you..._weren't_ brought back? Perhaps...for _political_ reasons?

Now, what do we know about the vaccines? Well, for one thing, they only block the symptoms, meaning you can still catch - and spread - the virus, you just won't get sick. For another, we don't know how long the vaccine is effective. Some have said that it may only last for two months.

So, we have asymptomatic spread due to a vaccine that lasts for only a small amount of time. Assuming that the virus is as dangerous as the media suggests (it isn't, but still), what if Pfizer, Moderna, or Johnson & Johnson just...don't give specific people (e.g. Trump supporters) the vaccine? I mean, they're private companies and can serve whoever they want, _right? _It's also not murder, because _they_ didn't "kill" you, the infected people "did".

Michael Drucker set us up. This is the deadliest form of cancel culture.


----------



## BigOnYa (Mar 6, 2021)

I will just to get the sticker and balloon as reward after....or is that the dentist.


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 6, 2021)

I heard wearing masks might cause lung breathing difficulties and lung fungus. Is that truth?


----------



## linuxares (Mar 6, 2021)

Luke94 said:


> I heard wearing masks might cause lung breathing difficulties and lung fungus. Is that truth?


bahahaahahahaha..... you serious?


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 6, 2021)

I guess just vaccines are just rushed up. They can't even consider allergies.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 6, 2021)

Luke94 said:


> I guess just vaccines are just rushed up. They can't even consider allergies.


Because of the nature of mRNA vaccines, there are fewer common allergens in the COVID vaccine than most others.  For example, egg-based ingredients are found in flu vaccines, but not in the COVID vaccine.

Ultimately all this hang-wringing about what kind of allergic reactions one in ten million might have is pointless.  Do YOU have any severe allergies?  If so, disclose them before getting your vaccine, and the doctor/nurse will tell you if there's anything to worry about.  It's as simple as that.


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 6, 2021)

Do vaccines contain human recycled reversed genes and radioactive mercury? In The X-Files vaccines contained alien dna genes. Placebo effects. Do mRNA vaccines have something in common with human brain microchips Neuralink tests,5G(microphone kind of like in THX 1137 to spy people)biotechnology? It seems Bill Gates vaccination obssesive fetishes to vax entire human population to decrease population growth. Working for bowl of rice. Well I have allergy for strawberry drinkable medical liquid smallpox-like effects on my skin.


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 14, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Michael Drucker set us up. This is the deadliest form of cancel culture.


This has got to be a joke, there is no fucking way people are this fucking insane

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



UltraSUPRA said:


> what if Pfizer, Moderna, or Johnson & Johnson just...don't give specific people


Yes, that's a HUGE if tho, it would be fucking awful for publicity to do that, so I have no idea why they would even consider, these companies only really care about profit, they don't give a shit about any of our political views


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 15, 2021)

I heard Disney is also making vaccines. Let's hope it won't be like urban legend conspiracy theory of one of water parks human brain eating amoeba. Didn't vaccines got aborted human fetuses,radioactive mercury, biotechnology? You know human DNA genetical material.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 15, 2021)

Why are they all "picking" at AstraZeneca actual ? 
Because of a few dead People and Incidents ? 
No one was interested or bothered by that before.
Instead of saving Lives,they are detaining/confiscating the Vaccine and remove it from circulation.
Germany actual suspends Vaccinations completely with AstraZeneca....

Oh,I forget,maybe because it is maybe the "cheapest" Vaccine.....
That won't really bother the big Vaccine Companies...will it ?


Now we have enough Vaccine,we must start a "War" between the different Vaccines...

Mankind is really completely stupid and should be wiped out...


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 15, 2021)

Just call me he/him.
Are you planning a total digital currency? Elon Musk is said to want to test Neuralink on people this year. Bill Gates vaccinate everyone. Well, it may be a fake news conspiracy theory, but allegedly Chinese and American celebrities have stopped adrenochromes.


----------



## Louse (Mar 15, 2021)

luke you mentioned like 50 conspiracy theories in 3 posts

aborted fetuses have nothing to do with vaccines, they are simply a delicious food.


----------



## Seliph (Mar 15, 2021)

0xFFFFFFFF said:


> luke you mentioned like 50 conspiracy theories in 3 posts
> 
> aborted fetuses have nothing to do with vaccines, they are simply a delicious food.


Glad that this is the first post I see coming back to this thread after abandoning it for a few weeks lmao



Just got the vaccine! Everything seems fine so far, no weird side effects or anything. I bought a new Windows computer to celebrate! I just felt compelled to.


----------



## Louse (Mar 15, 2021)

mmm, i do love a good babe with mercury sauce


Seliph said:


> no weird side effects or anything.


Are you sure? Have you felt your recycled gene nano-machines kicking in yet?


----------



## Seliph (Mar 15, 2021)

0xFFFFFFFF said:


> mmm, i do love a good babe with mercury sauce
> 
> Are you sure? Have you felt your recycled gene nano-machines kicking in yet?


Nah, and if they have I wouldn't have noticed since my body is already 90% nanomachines


----------



## Godofcheese (Mar 15, 2021)

Got my first vaccination dose recently (Nurse) 
(nano-machines, son!)
Guess I'll die soon


----------



## Seliph (Mar 15, 2021)

The vaccine made me gay wtf!!!!


----------



## Louse (Mar 15, 2021)

Seliph said:


> The vaccine made me gay wtf!!!!


hmmm
me get heal juice
gay
juice give gay
gay+gay=???


----------



## ChrisMCNBVA (Mar 15, 2021)

i got mine done recently and the other is on the 25th so i'll be glad when it's over


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2021)

Seliph said:


> Just got the vaccine! Everything seems fine so far, no weird side effects or anything. I bought a new Windows computer to celebrate! I just felt compelled to.


I also got the vaccine, and for some reason I really feel like getting an Xbox series x


----------



## Seliph (Mar 15, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> I also got the vaccine, and for some reason I really feel like getting an Xbox series x


I already have one on the way!


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2021)

Seliph said:


> I already have one on the way!


Also, is it just me or is Microsoft edge really good


----------



## djpannda (Mar 15, 2021)

Seliph said:


> The vaccine made me gay wtf!!!!


..oh that what that tingling feeling was!


----------



## Seliph (Mar 15, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Also, is it just me or is Microsoft edge really good


mmmm yeah


----------



## leon315 (Mar 15, 2021)

yet another vaccine join the party! Johnson & Johnson picks *Germany *for coronavirus vaccine production
https://www.politico.eu/article/johnson-johnson-picks-german-site-for-vaccine-production/

And Italy's Ministery announces *Sputnik V *the russian vaccine to be made in Italy, 1st in EU.
https://www.ansa.it/english/news/20...-eu_77c29595-6962-47cb-8950-1338f942ada8.html

Edit: both EU and EMA are fuming Italy's decision saying "give emergency authorization for Sputnik, otherwise it would be playing “Russian roulette” with public health", this laughed my ass off: what other countries' been doing with ASTRAZENECA'S VACCINE SO FAR? isn't that a "Russian roulette" and winner gets *Blood clots and free heart attack*??? hahahaahah what bunch of hypocrites!


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 15, 2021)

Vaccines wars. Kind of reminds me console wars from circa Anno Domini of years 1980's and 1990's.


----------



## Louse (Mar 15, 2021)

Luke94 said:


> Vaccines wars. Kind of reminds me console wars from circa Anno Domini of years 1980's and 1990's.


 
Not to worry. I'm jacking my cyber-matrix into Disney *right at this moment *to acquire their secret vaccine formula!

And _then...
_
I'm gonna vaccinate the moon, you idiot!


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2021)

0xFFFFFFFF said:


> Not to worry. I'm jacking my cyber-matrix into Disney *right at this moment *to acquire their secret vaccine formula!
> 
> And _then...
> _
> I'm gonna vaccinate the moon, you idiot!


Same energy


----------



## Louse (Mar 15, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Same energy




"no NO, rouge rouge i Dont need aa"

"wai what the tfuck is an intervention"


----------



## Luke94 (Mar 16, 2021)

But hey it's just theory a conspiracy theory thanks for listening. I heard Walter Disney was putted into cryosleep until his cancer will be cured. Somewhere his body remain alive somewhere at Disneyland.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 30, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Yes, that's a HUGE if tho, it would be fucking awful for publicity to do that


What would _you_ do about it, not take it? And die?


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 30, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> What would _you_ do about it, not take it? And die?


Ok, let's say hypothetically this would be happening, I would just lie about my political position and get the vaccine, ez

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

"Yeah I totally like the current president"


----------



## KingVamp (Mar 30, 2021)

Welp, getting it pretty soon.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 30, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Ok, let's say hypothetically this would be happening, I would just lie about my political position and get the vaccine, ez
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> "Yeah I totally like the current president"


*checks Twitter and Facebook posts*


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 30, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> *checks Twitter and Facebook posts*


Jokes on you I don't have Facebook and my Twitter is mainly mindless shitposting


----------



## Xzi (Mar 30, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Welp, getting it pretty soon.


Hoping to get it soon myself, they'll be opening up to 18+ in my area.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 30, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Jokes on you I don't have Facebook and my Twitter is mainly mindless shitposting


We'll see about that in the next two months when the vaccine has to be renewed.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Mar 30, 2021)

People are so brainwashed. Sigh. Stop helping your own enslavement!


----------



## Lacius (Mar 30, 2021)

I received my first dose of Pfizer about two weeks ago. I had no side-effects. I was worried I might, since I had COVID-19 in January, and people who have had it are more likely to experience second-dose side-effects on their first doses.


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Mar 30, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> We'll see about that in the next two months when the vaccine has to be renewed.


Good thing this is a completely hypothetical situation and I don't have to worry about my public political views


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 30, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Good thing this is a completely hypothetical situation and I don't have to worry about my public political views


Give it a few years and it might not be so hypothetical.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 31, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> People are so brainwashed. Sigh. Stop helping your own enslavement!


What, you mean you don't want a job at Microsoft?  I hear the pay is great!  /s


----------



## Louse (Mar 31, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> People are so brainwashed. Sigh. Stop helping your own enslavement!


I'd like a little elaboration on this, please and thank you.


----------



## ZeroFX (Mar 31, 2021)

Yes, when or which i don't know yet.


----------



## WeedZ (Mar 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I received my first dose of Pfizer about two weeks ago. I had no side-effects. I was worried I might, since I had COVID-19 in January, and people who have had it are more likely to experience second-dose side-effects on their first doses.


I recently had the second dose of moderna, and it hurt me. Fever, aches, nausea, headache. I also had covid several months ago, so it could be that made it worse. But my first one was fine.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 31, 2021)

One Thing (unfortunately it can not be proofed....)

"They" say,that the Bed Capacity in the Hospitals is threatening to reach its Limits - actual.(Austria)
They did not told us,how many of the Patients,who are currently admitted as inpatients - intensive care,are suffering from "bad Reactions" from the (AstraZeneca or other) Vaccine....


----------



## notimp (Mar 31, 2021)

Eh..

Side effects of vaccines, if you must know... 

https://www2.hse.ie/covid-19-vaccine/

Listed for the individual ones used in ireland.

You might have to click one level deeper to get the listings by chance of occurrence. All side effects are listed as chances of 1 in x as is usual for european medicament standards.

As for the blood cloth thingy with AstraZeneca - of those afair only less than 10 cases are known in germany, and thats out of 8 million doses given out. But thats more sensitive, because its a life threatening condition you would induce in an otherwise healthy patient, so regulation is very tough on those occurrences - thats a medical ethics case, were people will go the extra mile, trying to prevent those. (Giving it out to people was halted, the condition was researched, a cure developed, and now germany halted giving out the vaccine to anyone under the age of 60. (less harm in 'potential life years' lost))).


----------



## shaunj66 (Mar 31, 2021)

Getting my first vaccine dose this afternoon


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 31, 2021)

notimp said:


> Eh..
> 
> Side effects of vaccines, if you must know...
> 
> https://www2.hse.ie/covid-19-vaccine/



Bad described,my Friend,my Fault.

I meant how many from the Corona Patients actual on the Intensive Care Stations ARE really Covid Patients
and how many are (who were brought in) which as "Troubles after the Vaccination".
That was my Point.Nobody tells it how many are "real" Covid Patients actual....
I hope it is a little better "explained"now.

Of course we were informed about the Side Effects.
It is clearly stated on the Package Insert from the (AstraZeneca) Vaccine.



....I wonder how many People nows about the "same" Side Effect (AstraZeneca) that some "Cancer Medication" has.....oh...maybe because of the "same" Active Ingredient....no,no....that is  too "farfetched" and can not be proofed.....I think...
....please excuse my "Conspiracy Theory" please.


----------



## duwen (Mar 31, 2021)

Had my first dose last Friday, second one booked for June.


----------



## Lacius (Mar 31, 2021)

*Pfizer/BioNTech says its Covid-19 vaccine is 100% effective and well tolerated in adolescents*

Clinical trial results of Pfizer/BioNTech's Covid-19 vaccine showed its efficacy is 100% and it is well tolerated in youths ages 12 to 15, the companies said Wednesday.

Pfizer/BioNTech plan to submit the data to the US Food and Drug Administration as soon as possible for expanded emergency use authorization of the two-dose vaccine.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/31/health/pfizer-vaccine-adolescent-trial-results/index.html


----------



## AncientBoi (Mar 31, 2021)

I already got both of mine at the VA Hospital. I got tired of their Emails to me.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> *Pfizer/BioNTech says its Covid-19 vaccine is 100% effective and well tolerated in adolescents*
> 
> Clinical trial results of Pfizer/BioNTech's Covid-19 vaccine showed its efficacy is 100% and it is well tolerated in youths ages 12 to 15, the companies said Wednesday.
> 
> ...


I'm still skeptical.


----------



## Lacius (Mar 31, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'm still skeptical.


Which part are you skeptical about?


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Which part are you skeptical about?


What are all the side effects? Some guy got his _skin_ peeled off because of the vaccine.


----------



## Lacius (Mar 31, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> What are all the side effects? Some guy got his _skin_ peeled off because of the vaccine.


The good news is this guy is one out of hundreds of millions, has made a full recovery, and doesn't regret getting the vaccine. This story should not dissuade anyone from getting a COVID-19 vaccination.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Mar 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The good news is this guy is one out of hundreds of millions, has made a full recovery, and doesn't regret getting the vaccine. This story should not dissuade anyone from getting a COVID-19 vaccination.


Good for him. I'm still not taking it.

If it works as advertised, then only around 60% of the population needs it. Judging by the poll, I'll be fine if I don't.
If it doesn't work as advertised, it doesn't work as advertised, and shouldn't be trusted.


----------



## Lacius (Mar 31, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Good for him. I'm still not taking it.
> 
> If it works as advertised, then only around 60% of the population needs it. Judging by the poll, I'll be fine if I don't.
> If it doesn't work as advertised, it doesn't work as advertised, and shouldn't be trusted.


If you are referring to herd immunity, that number is probably higher than 60%. If the R0 of COVID-19 is 4, for example, then 1-(1/4) is 75%, but you also have to take into account the efficacy of the vaccine. 75% vaccination rate with a vaccine that's 90% effective gets you at a 67.5% effective vaccine rate, under the 75% number needed for herd immunity with a hypothetical R0 of 4. It would need to be 83% vaccination rate with a 90% efficacy to get to 75% effective vaccination rate and herd immunity.

The R0 is hard to measure, since mask-wearing, social distancing, hand-washing, etc. affect it. Not counting the variants, I'd say a natural R0 of 2-3 is likely. That would put the herd immunity number around 60% (again, without taking into account variants), but with a 90% effective vaccine, that's about 54%. To actually get 60% effective vaccination, you need about 67% of the population to get vaccinated.

Tldr, to get herd immunity, the vaccination rate is probably closer to 70% at least, and that doesn't fully take into account emerging variants.

If we want to return to normal, we need as many people to get vaccinated as soon as possible. You have a choice between the status quo (masks, social distancing, etc.) or vaccination. If we are too slow to get people vaccinated, new emerging variants may reduce the efficacy of the vaccine and cause a positive feedback loop of reduced vaccine efficacy. That could mean we start back at square one with no effective vaccine and going back to lockdowns, mask-wearing, etc. Based on your previous posts, you of all people should be promoting timely vaccination.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 31, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Good for him. I'm still not taking it.
> 
> If it works as advertised, then only around 60% of the population needs it. Judging by the poll, I'll be fine if I don't.



Funny:

Today our Austrian "Government Heroes" used this Number for two Topics:

- AstraZeneca should now only vaccinated for People from 60 Years old up.
- The "Vaccination Goal" is 60 Percent from the Austrian Population.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 31, 2021)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: people are free to choose not to take the vaccine, they'll only be harming themselves since it'll be a requirement for travel and large events sooner or later.  This isn't anything new, either.  You were required to have certain shots up to date for international travel well before the discovery of COVID-19.


----------



## Reynardine (Mar 31, 2021)

Germany's vaccine programme sucks enormously.

They wanted to test the AstraZeneca one on me but I declined. Either BioNTech or nothing, I can wait...


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 31, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again: people are free to choose not to take the vaccine...



Not in Austria.
If you do not Test and/or be Vaccinated,you get Punishment like in the deepest Medieval.
Our "green" Minister of Health Anschober has many "Penalites" in "the Sleeve".

And even a regular Vote against his Measures,the Ass tramples on our statutory Constitutions and our Rights around,until the even more stupid Chancellor Kurz and the completely moronic Vice Chancellor Kogler then give in and find some Loophole to circumvent that.
All groundless and illegal,but it takes Weeks/Months before the EU Constitutional Court can declare these illegal measures for "ungesetzlich"(unlawful) and then be lifted again.

And for this "Weeks" they would like "invent" Rules like actual
"Access/Admission Tests" for all Shops/Stores/Bank/Workshop/Events/Exhibitions/Gastronomy and so on.
Means - without a valid/negativ,not older than 48 Hours Nose and Throat Test and/or 72 Hours old negativ PCR Test you are no longer allowed to enter any public "Buildung".
For your Information - It is strictly forbidden to refuse People access to Shops for "Daily Needs" like Food for Example !!
So you see,HOW they actual "work" here in my beautiful Country.

And by the Way,it makes NO Difference if you are Vaccinated or not.
No negativ Test - No Access.....we will see,we now have "maybe" 8 Weeks Grace Period (thanks through the legal Vote in Parliament).


----------



## Lacius (Mar 31, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again: people are free to choose not to take the vaccine, they'll only be harming themselves since it'll be a requirement for travel and large events sooner or later.  This isn't anything new, either.  You were required to have certain shots up to date for international travel well before the discovery of COVID-19.


See my post above for why each person has a moral imperative to be vaccinated as soon as possible. It affects more than just oneself.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 1, 2021)

*Pfizer, Biontech say trials suggest Covid vaccine works against South African variant, is effective after 6 months*

"Pfizer and BioNTech said Thursday that trials suggest their vaccine is effective against a coronavirus variant that first emerged in South Africa, which some experts worry might evade existing shots.

The drugmakers also said in a statement that 12,000 people involved in their Phase 3 trial experienced high levels of protection against Covid-19 six months after their second dose, with no serious safety concerns."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-vaccine-works-against-south-african-n1262710

This is good news, and the vaccines could still end up being effective for longer than six months. Two or three years of efficacy is not impossible.


----------



## chrisrlink (Apr 1, 2021)

fully vaxxed myself will be 90% protected by the 10th


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 1, 2021)

just got my vaccine today, it's the moderna one. Feeling a bit tired, but that's one of the side effects. Outside of that, perfectly fine.


----------



## shaunj66 (Apr 1, 2021)

Had my jab approx 24 hours ago (AZ) and have not had any side effects except a metallic taste in my mouth the last couple hours. Otherwise I feel absolutely fine. My arm isn't even sore or tender.


----------



## izy (Apr 1, 2021)

Reynardine said:


> Germany's vaccine programme sucks enormously.
> 
> They wanted to test the AstraZeneca one on me but I declined. Either BioNTech or nothing, I can wait...


i mean im in UK and got my astra zeneca just fine

what you mean test its literally rolled out just because your countrys scuffed it isnt rolled out.
considering germany had 15.6million doses sent to them can hardly call that a test.

your country literally probably calling it a test because the delayed the rollout due to blood clots.

which by the way is minimal and well below expected numbers and any health factors can have to be taken into account.

litererally 5 in 14Million people in UK got blood clots from the jab

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



shaunj66 said:


> Had my jab approx 24 hours ago (AZ) and have not had any side effects except a metallic taste in my mouth the last couple hours. Otherwise I feel absolutely fine. My arm isn't even sore or tender.


i got a headache that night but the leaflet warns its a common sympton felt just fine next day


----------



## Reynardine (Apr 1, 2021)

squee666 said:


> i mean im in UK and got my astra zeneca just fine
> 
> what you mean test its literally rolled out just because your countrys scuffed it isnt rolled out.
> considering germany had 15.6million doses sent to them can hardly call that a test.
> ...


Only high risk groups are getting vaccinated in Germany right now. I have a disability and got a letter that I'm permitted to a vaccination with AstraZeneca.

I cynically referred to it as a test because people with (mental) disability often won't be able to judge for themselves.

I don't see why I should accept a less effective and slightly more risky vaccine just because our government is unable to secure enough of the arguably superior BioNTech one.

I have a weak immune system and I don't have a good feeling getting AstraZeneca, it's not a risk I'm willing to take if I can still catch Covid and get seriously ill.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 1, 2021)

Reynardine said:


> Only high risk groups are getting vaccinated in Germany right now. I have a disability and got a letter that I'm permitted to a vaccination with AstraZeneca.
> 
> I cynically referred to it as a test because people with (mental) disability often won't be able to judge for themselves.
> 
> ...



Wait for Sputnik V,we get some (1.000.000 Doses) in Austria in the next Days.


----------



## Reynardine (Apr 1, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Wait for Sputnik V,we get some (1.000.000 Doses) in Austria in the next Days.


It appears that Sputnik V is actually more effective than AstraZeneca. Who knows, maybe it is a better alternative...

I'd still prefer BioNTech or Moderna to those.


----------



## realtimesave (Apr 1, 2021)

I don't trust the vaccine but at least they tried.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 1, 2021)

realtimesave said:


> I don't trust the vaccine but at least they tried.


The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective. It is very important that as many people as possible get vaccinated as soon as possible.


----------



## Armadillo (Apr 1, 2021)

Nothing for me yet. Not even sure when my group is suppose to get it (30-39 group) and no health issues. So just phase 2, don't know when that is.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 1, 2021)

Reynardine said:


> It appears that Sputnik V is actually more effective than AstraZeneca. Who knows, maybe it is a better alternative...



Putin is still alive........I presume.......so...


----------



## izy (Apr 1, 2021)

I mean you there seems to be nothing wrong with mixing vaccines if there is limited supply, that and booster shots.

your healthcare systems must think the vaccine are fine if they are willing to be distributed in your country.

bionech requires specialised freezers to store it so it cant be mass rolled out as easy.

dont know why people think taking less efficient vaccine that is still viable to because of feelings and chance of risk.
vs
you know not actually taking a vaccine and having complete risk

that and the fact you can get boosters/2nd doses of a vaccine from another maker just fine


----------



## notimp (Apr 1, 2021)

Reynardine said:


> It appears that Sputnik V is actually more effective than AstraZeneca. Who knows, maybe it is a better alternative...
> 
> I'd still prefer BioNTech or Moderna to those.


Issue with Sputnik currently is, that its not EMA approved:
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/clarification-sputnik-v-vaccine-eu-approval-process

Which would basically mean, that it couldnt be part of a european vaccination pass 'regime'.

In terms of effectiveness, It would have to be given twice, same as AstraZeneca. (Has higher effectiveness though.)

It is a vector vaccine same as AstraZeneca, but it used two different adenovirus types as a base which lead to the higher effectiveness.

It got its numbers vetted by the Lancet (so no, or statistically very good meddling with the numbers in the datapool provided..  ), but it didnt undergo a testing regime vetted in the EU, basically.

Oh, and Russia has three vaccines in production in total. 

edit: Rolling review is under way:
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-starts-rolling-review-sputnik-v-covid-19-vaccine


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 1, 2021)

notimp said:


> Issue with Sputnik currently is, that its not EMA approved:
> https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/clarification-sputnik-v-vaccine-eu-approval-process
> 
> Which would basically mean, that it couldnt be part of a european vaccination pass 'regime'.
> ...


Yes,we got a "Warning" about that,but ...who cares.....at least not our Chancellor....who made the Deal with Russia...


----------



## Xzi (Apr 1, 2021)

Well I was gonna go get my first jab today, but turns out the J&J vaccine will be available in my area starting Monday, so I might as well wait a little longer and save myself a trip.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Apr 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you are referring to herd immunity, that number is probably higher than 60%. If the R0 of COVID-19 is 4, for example, then 1-(1/4) is 75%, but you also have to take into account the efficacy of the vaccine. 75% vaccination rate with a vaccine that's 90% effective gets you at a 67.5% effective vaccine rate, under the 75% number needed for herd immunity with a hypothetical R0 of 4. It would need to be 83% vaccination rate with a 90% efficacy to get to 75% effective vaccination rate and herd immunity.
> 
> The R0 is hard to measure, since mask-wearing, social distancing, hand-washing, etc. affect it. Not counting the variants, I'd say a natural R0 of 2-3 is likely. That would put the herd immunity number around 60% (again, without taking into account variants), but with a 90% effective vaccine, that's about 54%. To actually get 60% effective vaccination, you need about 67% of the population to get vaccinated.
> 
> ...


This is all assuming that Big Pharma isn't lying about everything. I'm no lab rat.


----------



## Blaze163 (Apr 2, 2021)

Already had my first dose. Made me feel exhausted for a couple days but it's better than dying so all's fair I guess.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 2, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> This is all assuming that Big Pharma isn't lying about everything. I'm no lab rat.


No shit sherlock, if you wanted to be a lab rat you missed your chance to join in the clinical trials about a year ago.  What we've got now are vaccines that have already undergone human testing.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (Apr 2, 2021)

Xzi said:


> No shit sherlock, if you wanted to be a lab rat you missed your chance to join in the clinical trials about a year ago.  What we've got now are vaccines that have already undergone human testing.


Not enough human testing to ensure that there aren't any long-term side effects. Developing a vaccine for a new disease in less than a year is unprecedented, and should not be trusted for the next five years.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> See my post above for why each person has a moral imperative to be vaccinated as soon as possible. It affects more than just oneself.



No they don't, it's their choice, their decision.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 2, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Not enough human testing to ensure that there aren't any long-term side effects. Developing a vaccine for a new disease in less than a year is unprecedented, and should not be trusted for the next five years.


Bruh, there aren't going to be any long-term side effects.  Tens of millions of people have been vaccinated and there's barely any short-term side effects being reported.  All the vaccine does is tell your body to build its own spike protein, and then your body attacks that protein as if it were part of coronavirus.

Like just think about what you're saying for a second: you're afraid of the roughly 0.000001% chance that you'll have a bad reaction to the vaccine, but not the 1% chance you have of dying from COVID-19 or the 5% to 10% chance it does serious damage to your lungs or other organs.  In case you aren't much of a math guy or an XCOM player: the latter percentages are way higher.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 2, 2021)

It is pretty crazy that we went from using the weakened versions of viruses to using mRNA or DNA instead.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 2, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> It is pretty crazy that we went from using the weakened versions of viruses to using mRNA or DNA instead.


AFAIK the Johnson & Johnson vaccine works more traditionally, by using dead cold virus cells to deliver the spike protein from COVID.  The rest though, yeah.  Amazing how far we've come with sequencing the human genome and all that.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 2, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> This is all assuming that Big Pharma isn't lying about everything. I'm no lab rat.


It isn't ALL assuming "big pharma" isn't lying. The only part they could potentially be lying about is the efficacy of the vaccine, since that's the only information we got from what you would call "big pharma," and I cannot overstate how unlikely that is. Clinical trials were done all over the country by numerous independent parties and institutions that have no personal stake in whether or not they say the vaccines work. You're suggesting a conspiracy so large that it's just not possible. We would have people from all over the country shouting from the metaphorical mountaintops that the data was manipulated if the data had actually been manipulated.

If you do some research on how the efficacy and safety of a vaccine are determined, you'll see that the "big pharma is lying" argument is both unsubstantiated and impossible.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



phonemonkey said:


> No they don't, it's their choice, their decision.


I didn't say people don't have a choice; they do. I said they have a moral imperative. These two things are not mutually exclusive.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



UltraSUPRA said:


> Not enough human testing to ensure that there aren't any long-term side effects. Developing a vaccine for a new disease in less than a year is unprecedented, and should not be trusted for the next five years.


The vaccines have been demonstrated to be both safe and effective. As far as I can tell, this " wait five years" number is completely made-up with no medical science behind it. In truth, the medical science is very clear that as many people as possible should get vaccinated as soon as possible, and I explained why in a previous post.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It isn't ALL assuming "big pharma" isn't lying. The only part they could potentially be lying about is the efficacy of the vaccine, since that's the only information we got from what you would call "big pharma," and I cannot overstate how unlikely that is. Clinical trials were done all over the country by numerous independent parties and institutions that have no personal stake in whether or not they say the vaccines work. You're suggesting a conspiracy so large that it's just not possible. We would have people from all over the country shouting from the metaphorical mountaintops that the data was manipulated if the data had actually been manipulated.
> 
> If you do some research on how the efficacy and safety of a vaccine are determined, you'll see that the "big pharma is lying" argument is both unsubstantiated and impossible.
> 
> ...



They don't have a moral imperative at all. If you feel that way fine, don't insinuate others should.

Im classed as vulnerable, always ill, asthma, chest infections. I would never expect anyone to feel thay should take any medication to make my life easier.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 2, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> They don't have a moral imperative at all. If you feel that way fine, don't insinuate others should.
> 
> Im classed as vulnerable, always ill, asthma, chest infections. I would never expect anyone to feel thay should take any medication to make my life easier.


If we don't get enough people vaccinated in time to get herd immunity and beat the variants that will reduce vaccine efficacy, we will go backwards to a time when we had a lot more daily deaths than now. There is absolutely a moral imperative to get vaccinated.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If we don't get enough people vaccinated in time to get herd immunity and beat the variants that will reduce vaccine efficacy, we will go backwards to a time when we had a lot more daily deaths than now. There is absolutely a moral imperative to get vaccinated.



Lol, cool story bro. Grow up and stop forcing your opinion onto others.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 2, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> Lol, cool story bro. Grow up and stop forcing your opinion onto others.


The science is very clear about what is likely to happen if we don't get to herd immunity through swift vaccination.


----------



## emigre (Apr 2, 2021)

I Am British, 30 and now at a healthy weight so I don't expect to get the Vax offer yet, unless there's some sort of BAME initiative as I'm of Bengali heritage. I'm chill about it, I work an office job so WFH a bit longer will be fine.

My folks have had their first dose of their Vax and should be getting their second dose in May.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The science is very clear about what is likely to happen if we don't get to herd immunity through swift vaccination.



BelievemuhScience. BelievemuhCNN.

Whatever the case, its not your place to push that narrative onto others.

These drugs are usualy tested for ten years, these are less than one year. As you are neither a scientist or a doctor, how would you feel if someone on here had a reaction and it was down to your blinkered pressuring on here. Youd probably just say, oh well. Eh.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 2, 2021)

emigre said:


> I Am British, 30 and now at a healthy weight so I don't expect to get the Vax offer yet, unless there's some sort of BAME initiative as I'm of Bengali heritage. I'm chill about it, I work an office job so WFH a bit longer will be fine.
> 
> My folks have had their first dose of their Vax and should be getting their second dose in May.


I'm in no particular rush to get it myself and I'm in the same age group. All statistical data points to the fact that vaccinating highly vulnerable populations first (elderly/obese/underlying health conditions, particularly of the respiratory system) is a much better strategy in terms of saving lives. If *I* catch it, I'll get the sniffles and get over it within two weeks. If grandma across the road catches it, there's a good chance she'll croak. The local government seems to be sticking to that strategy, but they're not exactly speedy about it. Distribution here is god awful, I haven't received an invitation either, and I suspect I won't get one for a very long time. I can wait for my turn.


----------



## Hanafuda (Apr 2, 2021)

In Vermont if you're over 16 years old, you're eligible to get vaccinated now, if you're not white.







Nope, not an April Fools.

https://vtdigger.org/2021/03/30/all...will-be-eligible-for-the-vaccine-on-thursday/


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 2, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> In Vermont if you're over 16 years old, you're eligible to get vaccinated now, if you're not white.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The rush to vaccinate minorities against the virus is really bizarre, race doesn't seem to be a big risk factor for COVID-19 morbidity, age is by far the biggest. Tripping over yourself to vaccinate 16-year olds is just silly. Assuming CDC statistics are correct, black, native american or hispanic patients do have a higher risk of hospitalisation or death from the virus, they're about twice as likely, give or take:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201.../hospitalization-death-by-race-ethnicity.html

Meanwhile, patients between 40-49 are *15x* more likely to be hospitalised and *130x* more likely to die from it, and the numbers grow exponentially from that point. 85+ year old patients are *8700x* more likely to die from COVID-19 compared to the 5-17 reference group:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...s-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html

If we're supposed to follow the science, we should focus on age - that's what the numbers tell us.


----------



## Hanafuda (Apr 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> If we're supposed to follow the science, we should focus on age - that's what the numbers tell us.



That'd be racist.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> If we're supposed to follow the science, we should focus on age - that's what the numbers tell us.


The numbers in the US are bad across the board, and only vaccinating 50+ year olds isn't gonna get us to herd immunity.  That probably would be the best method of ensuring the virus mutates to become immune or highly-resistant to the vaccine, though.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 2, 2021)

Another Thing - Why are so many,many People still think,if they get their 2,3 Vaccinations,they are then immune and could not get the Symptoms/Virus anymore....


----------



## Xzi (Apr 2, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Another Thing - Why are so many,many People still think,if they get their 2,3 Vaccinations,they are then immune and could not get the Symptoms/Virus anymore....


AFAIK all the vaccines are tested to be 100% effective at preventing serious symptoms and illness caused by COVID-19.  They're not 100% effective at preventing you from catching it, but if you do catch it after being vaccinated, your symptoms will be on the level of a common cold at worst.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 2, 2021)

Xzi said:


> AFAIK all the vaccines are tested to be 100% effective at preventing serious symptoms and illness caused by COVID-19.  They're not 100% effective at preventing you from catching it, but if you do catch it after being vaccinated, your symptoms will be on the level of a common cold at worst.



That is of course correct,but ask People around,how many knows this.
They still believe,they are then immune and also they think there is no need of wearing a Mask and Testing......very sad.....


----------



## Xzi (Apr 2, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> That is of course correct,but ask People around,how many knows this.
> They still believe,they are then immune and also they think there is no need of wearing a Mask and Testing......very sad.....


Thankfully most states still have mask mandates in place, and those that don't tend to require one in businesses at least.  Once we get to 70%+ of adults vaccinated we can all stop wearing masks though, and we're over halfway there.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 2, 2021)

Xzi said:


> The numbers in the US are bad across the board, and only vaccinating 50+ year olds isn't gonna get us to herd immunity.  That probably would be the best method of ensuring the virus mutates to become immune or highly-resistant to the vaccine, though.


It's a matter of priorities, not herd immunity - that will be achieved over time regardless. If your aim is to save lives, the solution is pretty obvious. Vaccination should prioritise in the order of vulnerability - there is nothing you can tell me that will convince me otherwise. 16 is within the reference group of 1x likelyhood, assuming generously that a black teen's odds are doubled, that's 2x or so. The average grandma is 8000x+ at more risk. By all statistical measures, grandma should be in that queue way ahead of the teen. Race aside, one of these numbers is just not like the other, no way to dance around it. That's of course setting aside the fact that race shouldn't play into it at all since it's an insignificant factor in the grand scheme of things, it comes across as weird race bait.

The US should follow the example of countries with highly successful vaccination schemes, for instance Israel which prioritised patients within risk groups as I say should be done and have now reduced symptomatic cases by 94% and hospitalisation by 87%. Younger people are just not at much risk of catching COVID, and those that do catch it mostly have mild symptoms. The obvious vector here is age - the older you are, the more likely you are to contract the disease and pass it on. Admittedly, the elderly don't go out nearly as much and in their case it's more about protecting life than it is about preventing transmission (and causing potential mutation over time), but even if we accept that as a fact, the priority should still be older working age patients that do have contact with others, but are at an exponentially higher risk of contracting COVID - people between the ages of 30 and 60.

There is almost no reason at all to prioritise 16 year olds who are currently not at school and spend their days playing on Xbox. They're not exposed to the virus nearly as much as their parents are - they're the ones going outside to work (wherever the economy is somewhat open) and do the shopping, they're the ones meeting strangers outside.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 2, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> BelievemuhScience. BelievemuhCNN.
> 
> Whatever the case, its not your place to push that narrative onto others.
> 
> These drugs are usualy tested for ten years, these are less than one year. As you are neither a scientist or a doctor, how would you feel if someone on here had a reaction and it was down to your blinkered pressuring on here. Youd probably just say, oh well. Eh.


It's not my science. It's science.

You also don't know my background.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> If your aim is to save lives, the solution is pretty obvious. Vaccination should prioritise in the order of vulnerability - there is nothing you can tell me that will convince me otherwise.


Well of course, it's not like we skipped the elderly in the process.  Some areas have simply been more efficient at vaccine distribution than others, which is why they're now opening up to more age groups.  IIRC we're at about 40% vaccinated for adults in this country, and the vast majority of those are 55+.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> It's a matter of priorities, not herd immunity - that will be achieved over time regardless. If your aim is to save lives, the solution is pretty obvious. Vaccination should prioritise in the order of vulnerability - there is nothing you can tell me that will convince me otherwise. 16 is within the reference group of 1x likelyhood, assuming generously that a black teen's odds are doubled, that's 2x or so. The average grandma is 8000x+ at more risk. By all statistical measures, grandma should be in that queue way ahead of the teen. Race aside, one of these numbers is just not like the other, no way to dance around it. That's of course setting aside the fact that race shouldn't play into it at all since it's an insignificant factor in the grand scheme of things, it comes across as weird race bait.
> 
> The US should follow the example of countries with highly successful vaccination schemes, for instance Israel which prioritised patients within risk groups as I say should be done and have now reduced symptomatic cases by 94% and hospitalisation by 87%. Younger people are just not at much risk of catching COVID, and those that do catch it mostly have mild symptoms. The obvious vector here is age - the older you are, the more likely you are to contract the disease and pass it on. Admittedly, the elderly don't go out nearly as much and in their case it's more about protecting life than it is about preventing transmission (and causing potential mutation over time), but even if we accept that as a fact, the priority should still be older working age patients that do have contact with others, but are at an exponentially higher risk of contracting COVID - people between the ages of 30 and 60.
> 
> There is almost no reason at all to prioritise 16 year olds who are currently not at school and spend their days playing on Xbox. They're not exposed to the virus nearly as much as their parents are - they're the ones going outside to work (wherever the economy is somewhat open) and do the shopping, they're the ones meeting strangers outside.


The short term concern is vaccinating vulnerable populations. The long term goal is getting to herd immunity as quickly as possible so new variants don't eventually eliminate vaccine efficacy and put us back at square one.


----------



## 6adget (Apr 2, 2021)

My wife got here 2nd shot about a month ago, and I get my 2nd shot in about 25 days. 

 We are both in our late 40s. She's a school teacher who teaches younger students in grade school. Even on the best years she brings home a couple of flu's or the cold. 

 I'm retired so I'm not too worried about catching it while out running errands. I'm high risk due to several health conditions, so I'm glad we are both vaccinated.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The short term concern is vaccinating vulnerable populations. The long term goal is getting to herd immunity as quickly as possible so new variants don't eventually eliminate vaccine efficacy and put us back at square one.


Both are addressed by vaccinating those who are actually at risk, go outside and interact with others. Statistically speaking that's working age adults, not school children, especially if said school children by and large are not back at school (besides a few states that have re-opened their schools). The average retail worker comes into contact with significantly more people than a child does and is at a much higher risk of contracting or suffering from COVID. If your intention is to curb the spread, common sense *and* science suggest targeting areas of mass gatherings of adults. If there's a demographic that should be targeted, it's working age adults, particularly if they're actively working during the pandemic. Multiple studies have already demonstrated that children are not the "super spreaders" they were expected to be, particularly not if they're not in a school environment.


----------



## 8BitWonder (Apr 2, 2021)

Received my first Moderna injection yesterday, I’ll get the next by the end of the month, feeling fine other than a sore arm.

My job requires I work and clean in a lot of public spaces and help folks so I’m glad to now be in the process of getting immunized.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's not my science. It's science.
> 
> You also don't know my background.



I'd hazard a 100% guess its neither what I said and you're just parroting 'news' and scaremongering. I like how you ignored the point about feeling bad if you pressured someone into having it and they became ill. Good example of those morals that. Bravo.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 3, 2021)

Anything that has death as a possible side effect, not to mention blood clots, skin peeling off of bodies, bells palsey, etc. and also not FDA Approved WILL NOT BE GOING INTO MINE OR MY FAMILY's BODIES!

CONTROL THE PEASANT'S!!!


----------



## Xzi (Apr 3, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> I'd hazard a 100% guess its neither what I said and you're just parroting 'news' and scaremongering.


Nobody beats anti-vaxxers when it comes to fearmongering, sorry.  Cylent1's post is a prime example.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 3, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Nobody beats anti-vaxxers when it comes to fearmongering, sorry.  Cylent1's post is a prime example.



Not read his stuff so can't comment. As long as they're not saying it's a moral issue that you have an injection, what's the problem? Ignore and move on.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 3, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> I'd hazard a 100% guess its neither what I said and you're just parroting 'news' and scaremongering.


You would be incorrect.



phonemonkey said:


> I like how you ignored the point about feeling bad if you pressured someone into having it and they became ill. Good example of those morals that. Bravo.


The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

Considering the consequences of not getting a high percentage of the population vaccinated, a person has a moral imperative to get vaccinated.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 3, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> Not read his stuff so can't comment.


His post is right above mine, do you have him on ignore?



phonemonkey said:


> As long as they're not saying it's a moral issue that you have an injection, what's the problem?


The problem is the intentional spread of misinformation/disinformation.  And there's usually a political motive behind that, rather than one based on morals or ethics.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You would be incorrect.
> 
> 
> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



Yeah, ok, frankly I don't believe you.

No it hasn't, at all. These type of vaccines are supposed to be tested for at least ten years, stop ignoring that fact.

Stop avoiding the point that it's not your position to pressure others just to.make you feel better.

Own up to your morals about pressuring someone who becomes ill due to an allergic reaction or whatever.

Oh...

Adverse Reactions to Covid Jabs now include 3787 blood disorders, 3426 heart disorders, 36,356 intestinal disorders and 68,797 nervous system disorders including brain damage and stroke according to UK gov data.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> His post is right above mine, do you have him on ignore?
> 
> 
> The problem is the intentional spread of misinformation/disinformation.  And there's usually a political motive behind that, rather than one based on morals or ethics.





Xzi said:


> His post is right above mine, do you have him on ignore?
> 
> 
> The problem is the intentional spread of misinformation/disinformation.  And there's usually a political motive behind that, rather than one based on morals or ethics.



There's always a political motive in everything. It's pretty pathetic tbh, I agree with that.

I remember the left's actions last year in the US against Trump, when some of his policies were sound. They fought and fought stop stop good policies, they're doing it now in Georgia.

Politics is a cancer to society, it stops so much from being achieved.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 3, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> Adverse Reactions to Covid Jabs now include 3787 blood disorders, 3426 heart disorders, 36,356 intestinal disorders and 68,797 nervous system disorders including brain damage and stroke according to UK gov data.


You mean you might have an adverse reaction if you have one of those disorders?  Or that the vaccine can potentially cause all those disorders?  If it's the former, that might be slightly believable.  If it's the latter I'm gonna have to call bullshit.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 3, 2021)

Xzi said:


> His post is right above mine, do you have him on ignore?
> 
> 
> The problem is the intentional spread of misinformation/disinformation.  And there's usually a political motive behind that, rather than one based on morals or ethics.



Lol, just read it btw.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



phonemonkey said:


> Lol, just read it btw.



I tend not to read the gumpf in this thread, I have no idea how I came to read it in the first place tbh.

Way better things to do. 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> You mean you might have an adverse reaction if you have one of those disorders?  Or that the vaccine can potentially cause all those disorders?  If it's the former, that might be slightly believable.  If it's the latter I'm gonna have to call bullshit.



This was the link. Tbh though there's so much bullshit, as you say, its who to trust. I tend to trust my own instincts, I'm 50 this year so I've seen enough in life to make my own informed choices. If it's the wrong choice, I'll happily pay the price. It's always been that way.

Everyone should be able to do the same, without being pressured by anyone. Including government.

https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/03/1...this-claim/amp/#click=https://t.co/HyQucaaFJM


----------



## Lacius (Apr 3, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> Yeah, ok, frankly I don't believe you.
> 
> No it hasn't, at all. These type of vaccines are supposed to be tested for at least ten years, stop ignoring that fact.
> 
> ...


Ten years for vaccine approval is an arbitrary time frame. There's no reason for vaccine trials to take that long, there's no reason they should take that long, and the COVID-19 vaccines are far from the first vaccines to take less time than that. You can find out more about the vaccine trial process here, and the COVID-19 vaccines went through the same phases:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/basics/test-approve.html

Your adverse reactions numbers are unverified and don't comport with the actual scientific data. They come from a compilation of claims that anyone can make without knowing if they're related to the vaccine, etc.

A person who can medically have the vaccine should be vaccinated as soon as possible. It has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. In addition to the aforementioned moral imperative, the vaccine is far safer than contracting COVID-19.

There is no political motivation to any of my comments about COVID-19 and the vaccine.

What Republicans are doing in Georgia is deplorable. They lost when citizens had broader access to voting, so they're trying to make it more difficult to vote, particularly among groups of people who are more likely to vote Democratic.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 3, 2021)

phonemonkey said:


> This was the link. Tbh though there's so much bullshit, as you say, its who to trust. I tend to trust my own instincts, I'm 50 this year so I've seen enough in life to make my own informed choices. If it's the wrong choice, I'll happily pay the price. It's always been that way.
> 
> Everyone should be able to do the same, without being pressured by anyone. Including government.
> 
> https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/03/1...this-claim/amp/#click=https://t.co/HyQucaaFJM


Does the UK health system not have its own website where this sort of information is available?  Because frankly that site doesn't look in the least bit trustworthy.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 3, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Does the UK health system not have its own website where this sort of information is available?  Because frankly that site doesn't look in the least bit trustworthy.


A quick Google Search of the numbers shows they're unverified reports that anybody can submit. As you know, the actual scientific studies and data show the vaccines to be relatively safe.


----------



## phonemonkey (Apr 3, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Does the UK health system not have its own website where this sort of information is available?  Because frankly that site doesn't look in the least bit trustworthy.



I had to dig that out tbh from a post I read on another platform a while ago. I did see follow ups pointing to the UK gov site at the time but cant remember where. Thing is, who do you believe when the UK gov is pulling stunts like this?

Governments are the biggest misinformers going.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sters-used-covert-tactics-keep-scared-public/

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I didnt know you could ignore people on here btw, thanks. It works a treat.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 3, 2021)

To each their own!   I am not getting one and that's the bottom line!
I am not ignorant and naieve to the facts!


----------



## Lacius (Apr 3, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> To each their own!   I am not getting one and that's the bottom line!
> I am not ignorant and naieve to the facts!


We aren't going to return to relative normalcy unless as many people as possible get vaccinated as quickly as possible.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We aren't going to return to relative normalcy unless as many people as possible get vaccinated as quickly as possible.


Go ahead and run to the pasture you mindless obedient sheep!
I told you all once, me or my family will NOT be getting something that isn't FDA approved, and side effects list as long as the Great China Wall.  You would have to be pretty dumb to do so in my opinion!


----------



## osm70 (Apr 3, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Go ahead and run to the pasture you mindless obedient sheep!
> I told you all once, me or my family will NOT be getting something that isn't FDA approved, and side effects list as long as the Great China Wall.  You would have to be pretty dumb to do so in my opinion!


Well, the vaccines (or at least, three of them) are Authorized for Emergency Use which is only a step under full approval. Seems good enough for me...

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-prepa...virus-disease-2019-covid-19/covid-19-vaccines


----------



## Xzi (Apr 3, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Go ahead and run to the pasture you mindless obedient sheep!


Says the dude who trusts whatever drivel comes out of Jenny McCarthy's mouth over the worldwide scientific community.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Go ahead and run to the pasture you mindless obedient sheep!
> I told you all once, me or my family will NOT be getting something that isn't FDA approved, and side effects list as long as the Great China Wall.  You would have to be pretty dumb to do so in my opinion!


The vaccine has been scientifically demonstrated to be safe, effective, and necessary.


----------



## 8BitWonder (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> me or my family will NOT be getting something that isn't FDA approved, and side effects list as long as the Great China Wall.


K, continue to wear masks and social distance then since that doesn't carry any of the side-effects you're paranoid about and reduces spread of more than just covid-19.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

You have your opinion and I have mine! 



Xzi said:


> Says the dude who trusts whatever drivel comes out of Jenny McCarthy's mouth over the worldwide scientific community.


...and just what does Jenny McCarthy have to do with this?  You need to stop fantasizing over some chick.

To the rest of ya...
You keep watching the MSM and keep running and doing what you are told!
I kinda find it ironic to say the least that our Govt. says if we behave like good little Americans, then we could have some freedoms back and have SMALL family gatherings on INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!!  SMFH!


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> You have your opinion and I have mine!
> 
> 
> ...and just what does Jenny McCarthy have to do with this?  You need to stop fantasizing over some chick.
> ...


You have a right to your opinion, but you don't have a right to your own facts.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You have a right to your opinion, but you don't have a right to your own facts.


Can you actually prove anything I said was factually false?
No you cannot, and either can I prove anything you said as factually true!
We can play this all night long, or do you have a bedtime?

Put your mask back on Kovid...


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Can you actually prove anything I said was factually false?
> No you cannot, and either can I prove anything you said as factually true!
> We can play this all night long, or do you have a bedtime?
> 
> Put your mask back on Kovid...



You've suggested the vaccines are not safe, but they have repeatedly been demonstrated to be safe, both in clinical trials and the nearly 100 million real-world vaccinations in the US.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda

Please read the part about how we know the vaccines are safe and how the situation has been continuously monitored since vaccinations first started.

Edit: You also seem to be suggesting something bad about masks, when they are demonstrably effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> ...and just what does Jenny McCarthy have to do with this? You need to stop fantasizing over some chick.


She started the whole anti-vaxxer "movement," so all the bullshit you're spewing is still rooted in her dumbass rhetoric.  I shouldn't have to tell you this, but Republicans still don't seem to realize that D-list celebrities are not a reliable source of information on _any_ topic.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

No I seem to find it quite ironic a year and a half before this Covid bullshit happens, a Kid on a American TV Show was name Kovid and they made sure he put his mask on. Like they centered that around him.  You don't find that Ironic?
If you wouldn't have drank the kool aid, you could have seen how things are playing out in the REAL WORLD,
It doesn't even matter anyways because we are all fucked!!!!  New World Order has kicked in and they are not messing around anymore.  
I suppose New World Order is a conspiracy theory right?  Thought So!


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> No I seem to find it quite ironic a year and a half before this Covid bullshit happens, a Kid on a American TV Show was name Kovid and they made sure he put his mask on. Like they centered that around him. You don't find that Ironic?


That's a fascinating coincidence if true, I'd like a link to it.  It's worth noting of course that SARS was a type of COVID virus, so that may well have been the inspiration.  And are we talking a medical mask or a superhero-type mask?



Cylent1 said:


> I suppose New World Order is a conspiracy theory right?


Nah I remember watching WCW vs. NWO back in the day.  The wrestling was fake but those guys were real.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 4, 2021)

For people that act so above MSM and claim everyone else is obsess with it, sure does bring it up a lot. 


For what it's worth, I could agree with the people that are hesitant to take the AstraZeneca vaccine.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> No I seem to find it quite ironic a year and a half before this Covid bullshit happens, a Kid on a American TV Show was name Kovid and they made sure he put his mask on. Like they centered that around him.  You don't find that Ironic?
> If you wouldn't have drank the kool aid, you could have seen how things are playing out in the REAL WORLD,
> It doesn't even matter anyways because we are all fucked!!!!  New World Order has kicked in and they are not messing around anymore.
> I suppose New World Order is a conspiracy theory right?  Thought So!


Are you suggesting some kind of COVID-19 conspiracy theory involving some sort of coded message sent to Project Runway viewers?


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> For what it's worth, I could agree with the people that are hesitant to take the AstraZeneca vaccine.


Have they even put it back into circulation yet?  The overabundance of caution they showed by pulling it for causing a few blood clots goes a long way toward making conspiracy theorists look even dumber.


----------



## 6adget (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> No I seem to find it quite ironic a year and a half before this Covid bullshit happens, a Kid on a American TV Show was name Kovid and they made sure he put his mask on. Like they centered that around him.  You don't find that Ironic?
> If you wouldn't have drank the kool aid, you could have seen how things are playing out in the REAL WORLD,
> It doesn't even matter anyways because we are all fucked!!!!  New World Order has kicked in and they are not messing around anymore.
> I suppose New World Order is a conspiracy theory right?  Thought So!


 
 And there it is, ladies and gentlemen. He is either trolling, or he really believes what he's saying. Something we tend to forget is no one ever thinks they are wrong, and yet continue to stick to what they were saying. Throwing facts at each other obviously doesn't work. we all practice conformation bias. you will no more change their opinion than they yours. So why continue with this meaningless back and forth? Unless you enjoy arguing. if that's the case then carry on.
   I wasn't going to say this, because I didn't want anyone to feel attacked, but I think it somewhat important. I find it unsettling, and somewhat unprofessional That an admin not only appears to believe in some of these conspiracy theories, but also gets in arguments with tempers about it. in my opinion it doesn't make GBAtemp look all that serious. Maybe it would be better if said admin were to make another account so that it doesn't come off as though those or the official beliefs of those who make the website that I and others have come to love.
   I'm sure this post will upset some, but that really isn't my intention.


----------



## RaptorDMG (Apr 4, 2021)

Unless I’m allowed to choose not to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine, I won’t be having the shot as my COVID risk is low so I don’t see the point in risking blood clots even if the chance is around 1 in 100000


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

6adget said:


> And there it is, ladies and gentlemen. He is either trolling, or he really believes what he's saying. Something we tend to forget is no one ever thinks they are wrong, and yet continue to stick to what they were saying. Throwing facts at each other obviously doesn't work. we all practice conformation bias. you will no more change their opinion than they yours. So why continue with this meaningless back and forth? Unless you enjoy arguing. if that's the case then carry on.
> I wasn't going to say this, because I didn't want anyone to feel attacked, but I think it somewhat important. I find it unsettling, and somewhat unprofessional That an admin not only appears to believe in some of these conspiracy theories, but also gets in arguments with tempers about it. in my opinion it doesn't make GBAtemp look all that serious. Maybe it would be better if said admin were to make another account so that it doesn't come off as though those or the official beliefs of those who make the website that I and others have come to love.
> I'm sure this post will upset some, but that really isn't my intention.


My replies are generally for the lurkers reading through the thread, particularly those who might have similar anti-vaccine views who aren't emotionally invested in being right in an argument, not for the people to whom I'm responding.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Are you suggesting some kind of COVID-19 conspiracy theory involving some sort of coded message sent to Project Runway viewers?



This is what the NWO does.  They rub in your face before it will ever happen.  Prime Example:
The Illuminati cards from the early 90's  depicting the twin towers on fire and going down, the Pentagon hit by a plane, political correctness, etc... 






Like I said , I could go on all night long with this shit! But I digress, people will be people.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



KingVamp said:


> For people that act so above MSM and claim everyone else is obsess with it, sure does bring it up a lot.
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, I could agree with the people that are hesitant to take the AstraZeneca vaccine.



Thats because we know a liar when we see one!


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> This is what the NWO does. They rub in your face before it will ever happen.


Or people just use the times they're living in as a basis to make educated guesses and satire about what the future might hold.  That's how the Simpsons writers were able to correctly "predict" so much stuff.  They put in Donald Trump being elected president simply because it was the most absurd thing they could think up.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> This is what the NWO does.  They rub in your face before it will ever happen.  Prime Example:
> The Illuminati cards from the early 90's  depicting the twin towers on fire and going down, the Pentagon hit by a plane, political correctness, etc...
> 
> 
> ...


Good to know. If Project Runway is the kind of show where the coded message was last time, then I'll continue watching this season of RuPaul's Drag Race while keeping an eye out for coded messages. It's going to be hard though, considering these kinds messages are generally useless without already having knowledge of the future event to compare it to.

In all seriousness, a broken clock is right twice a day. It's a mistake to focus on the hits while ignoring the misses. Otherwise, you'd mistakenly arrive at the conclusion that The Simpsons can accurately predict the future. A prediction is also useless unless it's clear, specific, verifiable, and falsifiable. Looking at a vague claim in hindsight doesn't cut it. Coincidences do happen.

Edit: I made the Simpsons comparison before reading the post above mine.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Or people just use the times they're living in to make educated guesses and satire about what the future might hold.  That's how the Simpsons writers were able to correctly "predict" so much stuff.


Wow... so anybody can take an educated guess from "the times we live in" and, i dunno say,  geussing all the digits in order for 256 sha crypto and it works, or guessing the lotto numbers correctly twice in one week?
Those odds are beyond astronomical.  Also I am sure you heard of the saying "History Repeats Itself" correctt?  Well it always has and it is right now!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 4, 2021)

I'm trying to figure out why sensible people on this forum are engaging in honest to God conversations about insane subjects. I'm pinning all of my collected evidence to a corkboard, for now it doesn't make any sense, but I think it will come together once I use some more red string.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Wow... so anybody can take an educated guess from "the times we live in" and, i dunno say, geussing all the digits in order for 256 sha crypto and it works, or guessing the lotto numbers correctly twice in one week?
> Those odds are beyond astronomical. Also I am sure you heard of the saying "History Repeats Itself" correctt? Well it always has and it is right now!


The odds are hardly "astronomical" when you consider that many of the problems America is facing today, it was also facing back in the 70s or 80s.

Even if everybody was making blind guesses without any input from the present or past, some of those guesses would turn out correct due to the sheer quantity of media we have these days.  When you only focus on what was correctly predicted though, you tend to lose sight of all the millions of incorrect predictions.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 4, 2021)

Xzi said:


> The odds are hardly "astronomical" when you consider that many of the problems America is facing today, it was also facing back in the 70s or 80s.
> 
> Even if everybody was making blind guesses without any input from the present or past, some of those guesses would turn out correct due to the sheer quantity of media we have these days.  When you only focus on what was correctly predicted though, you tend to lose sight of all the millions of incorrect predictions.


All I want to know is if the card about Congress features a man wearing buffalo horns and smearing poo poo on the walls.

Can we not egg him on? Pretty please? I don't even know where to start with this thread, and I feel it's going to get worse.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Xzi said:


> The odds are hardly "astronomical" when you consider that many of the problems America is facing today, it was also facing back in the 70s or 80s.
> 
> Even if everybody was making blind guesses without any input from the present or past, some of those guesses would turn out correct due to the sheer quantity of media we have these days.  When you only focus on what was correctly predicted though, you tend to lose sight of all the millions of incorrect predictions.


You are so full of shit, how can you live with yourself?
Here is the next big virus thats going to hit.  It's name is SPARS and it will be here in 2025 through 2028.
If you did your homework, you can find this stuff too!

*Snip!*


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Here is the next big virus thats going to hit. It's name is SPARS and it will be here in 2025 through 2028.


That's one I don't think we need to wait to throw in the pile with all the other incorrect guesses, you clearly weren't even trying.  The scientific name for a newly-discovered COVID virus would be SARS-CoV-3, and informally it would be named for the year it's discovered (COVID-25 in this scenario).

Anyway, that's enough of this conversation, glad we were able to bring it full circle at least.  Wish I could say it was enlightening.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Xzi said:


> That's one I don't think we need to wait to throw in the pile with all the other incorrect guesses, you clearly weren't even trying.  The scientific name for a newly-discovered COVID virus would be SARS-CoV-3, and informally it would be named for the year it's discovered (COVID-25 in this scenario).
> 
> Anyway, that's enough of this conversation, glad we were able to bring it full circle at least.  Wish I could say it was enlightening.


LOL   you are so right with everything.  what news station do you watch?  Who ever said it was going to be another Covid strain?
or better yet, could you please tell me who your crystal ball dealer is?  You do know these viruses are not natural?
Also you know back in 1981, probably well before you were born, that Dean Koontz wrote a book called The eyes of Darkness.
In that book he mention a lab in Wuhan China producing Covid virus strain!  But I must be mentally ill and a conspiracy theorist.
Get out of the video game and jump into the real world for once!


----------



## Goku1992A (Apr 4, 2021)

Just my two cents those Vaccines are still experimental plenty people has taken them and they still contracted the virus again it depends on your body. The only time I will take the Vaccine is when my son has to take it when it becomes mandated for children to take it before they enter school. 

It's kinda like CFW I will not take the first batch I will see how everyone else is doing with it before I make the move. I'm in no rush to take any vaccine I don't even take flu shots.


----------



## Foxi4 (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> I must be mentally ill and a conspiracy theorist.


I mean, let's not jump to conclusions, but if you're so confident... 

In any case, I suggest that you take your anti-vax rhetoric elsewhere. Nobody's forcing you to take the vaccine, even if it would be rather wise to do so in the grand scheme of things. All of that twin towers nonsense can go too, and the Illuminati drivel. This section has a policy against conspiracy theories (for a good couple of months now, actually). If your statements cannot be backed up by peer-reviewed evidence or otherwise substantiated beyond rantings and ravings, they're liable to be removed. Sadly I can't do just that right now as I'm on mobile, but I'll probably pop back in tomorrow to sanitise the thread accordingly. Keep in mind that the final arbiter of what is and is not a reliable source is the staff, so if you have any domains containing the word "truth" in them, I'm afraid that they won't satisfy my requirements. We've gotten significantly off-topic at this stage, so unless you have something relevant and on-topic to add, I would suggest dropping this line of discussion. I already politely informed users not to take this bait, but outlandish claims seem to have magnetic properties in these circles, which honestly can't be helped.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Goku1992A said:


> Just my two cents those Vaccines are still experimental plenty people has taken them and they still contracted the virus again it depends on your body.


The vaccines were never purported to be 100% effective against contracting the virus, only 100% effective at protecting against severe symptoms/illness that can result from being infected.  They vary from 66% to 95% effectiveness in preventing you from catching it, depending on which vaccine you get and how much time has passed since you got it.


----------



## Goku1992A (Apr 4, 2021)

Xzi said:


> The vaccines were never purported to be 100% effective against contracting the virus, only 100% effective at protecting against severe symptoms/illness that can result from being infected.  They vary from 66% to 95% effectiveness in preventing you from catching it, depending on which vaccine you get and how much time has passed since you got it.



To be very honest with you I believe I already caught the virus last year before it was mainstream. When I was really sick the doctor couldn't tell what was wrong with me and I was sick for weeks I couldn't even drive my car for maybe a few days... ever since then I never caught the codvid 19 virus a few of my friends caught it but I never did. I tried to do that antibody test but they told me my insurance would charge me a ton of money for it.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

Goku1992A said:


> To be very honest with you I believe I already caught the virus last year before it was mainstream. When I was really sick the doctor couldn't tell what was wrong with me and I was sick for weeks I couldn't even drive my car for maybe a few days... ever since then I never caught the codvid 19 virus a few of my friends caught it but I never did. I tried to do that antibody test but they told me my insurance would charge me a ton of money for it.


To be clear, even if you contract the virus, you should still be vaccinated.


----------



## Goku1992A (Apr 4, 2021)

Lacius said:


> To be clear, even if you contract the virus, you should still be vaccinated.



I'm going to do it with my son eventually. I'm not against it I'm just not in the rush yet I know for children it will become mandated this year before August I believe they can't have those children continue to stay at home forever.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I mean, let's not jump to conclusions, but if you're so confident...
> 
> In any case, I suggest that you take your anti-vax rhetoric elsewhere. Nobody's forcing you to take the vaccine, even if it would be rather wise to do so in the grand scheme of things. All of that twin towers nonsense can go too, and the Illuminati drivel. This section has a policy against conspiracy theories (for a good couple of months now, actually). If your statements cannot be backed up by peer-reviewed evidence or otherwise substantiated beyond rantings and ravings, they're liable to be removed. Sadly I can't do just that right now as I'm on mobile, but I'll probably pop back in tomorrow to sanitise the thread accordingly. Keep in mind that the final arbiter of what is and is not a reliable source is the staff, so if you have any domains containing the word "truth" in them, I'm afraid that they won't satisfy my requirements. We've gotten significantly off-topic at this stage, so unless you have something relevant and on-topic to add, I would suggest dropping this line of discussion. I already politely informed users not to take this bait, but outlandish claims seem to have magnetic properties in these circles, which honestly can't be helped.



The only outlandish claims here is that the vaccine is 100% safe and no reason not to get one!
Have nice fucking day!


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Goku1992A said:


> To be very honest with you I believe I already caught the virus last year before it was mainstream. When I was really sick the doctor couldn't tell what was wrong with me and I was sick for weeks I couldn't even drive my car for maybe a few days... ever since then I never caught the codvid 19 virus a few of my friends caught it but I never did. I tried to do that antibody test but they told me my insurance would charge me a ton of money for it.


I'm 99% certain I caught it in early December as well, but we have no concrete data on how long a person might be immune to the specific strain of the virus they caught and recovered from, let alone data on their chances of contracting one of the new variants.  Better safe than sorry, I've got my vaccination appointment set for Monday.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Apr 4, 2021)

Got vaxxed 2 days ago, the Johson and Johnson 1 dose version.  Had some light fever symptoms yesterday, a little shivering and soreness, but that was it.  Feeling great today, and by the 15th I'll be considered completely vaccinated.  Very happy to be able to start returning to a sense of normalcy, though I know it will still be quite some time before we collectively get there.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> The only outlandish claims here is that the vaccine is 100% safe and no reason not to get one!
> Have nice fucking day!


The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and anyone who can get one should get one as soon as possible.


----------



## CompSciOrBust (Apr 4, 2021)

Oh my god this thread is Aids. I had a module at university about science communication and it used vaccine misinformation as an example. Anti-Vaxx people probably get on my nerves the most but people blindly defending vaccines are just as bad. If you don't have an actual background in this stuff you really shouldn't be debating it (regardless of which side you're on). If you're anti-vaxx you've fallen victim to a lie started by Andrew Wakefield ~20 years ago which he used for his financial gain. If you're blindly defending vaccines based on what you've read online you're basically doing this same shit as the Anti-Vaxx people. It's two sides of the same coin. You're arguing about something neither of you really understand.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> Oh my god this thread is Aids. I had a module at university about science communication and it used vaccine misinformation as an example. Anti-Vaxx people probably get on my nerves the most but people blindly defending vaccines are just as bad. If you don't have an actual background in this stuff you really shouldn't be debating it (regardless of which side you're on). If you're anti-vaxx you've fallen victim to a lie started by Andrew Wakefield ~20 years ago which he used for his financial gain. If you're blindly defending vaccines based on what you've read online you're basically doing this same shit as the Anti-Vaxx people. It's two sides of the same coin. You're arguing about something neither of you really understand.


This isn't a "both sides are wrong" issue. The COVID-19 vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, they save lives, and we need to use them to get to herd immunity as soon as possible if we don't want emerging variants to reduce or eliminate their efficacy.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> Oh my god this thread is Aids. I had a module at university about science communication and it used vaccine misinformation as an example. Anti-Vaxx people probably get on my nerves the most but people blindly defending vaccines are just as bad. If you don't have an actual background in this stuff you really shouldn't be debating it (regardless of which side you're on). If you're anti-vaxx you've fallen victim to a lie started by Andrew Wakefield ~20 years ago which he used for his financial gain. If you're blindly defending vaccines based on what you've read online you're basically doing this same shit as the Anti-Vaxx people. It's two sides of the same coin. You're arguing about something neither of you really understand.


Being a anti-vaxxer is hardly what I am.
I have all my FDA Approved vaccinations thank you!


----------



## CompSciOrBust (Apr 4, 2021)

Lacius said:


> This isn't a "both sides are wrong" issue. The COVID-19 vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, they save lives, and we need to use them to get to herd immunity as soon as possible if we don't want emerging variants to reduce or eliminate their efficacy.


I'm not saying both sides are wrong. I believe the vaccines work and are safe. What I'm saying is that most of the people here are just saying that. How do you know the vaccines are safe and effective? Have you personally ran experiments on it? Have you looked at the data released by the trials? Have you read about their testing methodology and looked for flaws that may bias the results one way or the other? Probably not. Unless you do that, and you have the background knowledge on how this stuff should be done and why it is done that way you can't be sure that it is safe and effective. Even if you have done that a big part of science is never being 100% confident in anything. Skepticism is a part of the scientific method.

Edit: @Cylent1 My comments weren't made towards anyone specific. Just things I've seen in the thread generally.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> I'm not saying both sides are wrong. I believe the vaccines work and are safe. What I'm saying is that most of the people here are just saying that. How do you know the vaccines are safe and effective? Have you personally ran experiments on it? Have you looked at the data released by the trials? Have you read about their testing methodology and looked for flaws that may bias the results one way or the other? Probably not. Unless you do that, and you have the background knowledge on how this stuff should be done and why it is done that way you can't be sure that it is safe and effective. Even if you have done that a big part of science is never being 100% confident in anything. Skepticism is a part of the scientific method.


I have looked at the data, and everyone should. There's more than enough data to show that the vaccines are safe and effective.

Are you seriously arguing that most of the people who are arguing the vaccines are safe and effective don't know what they're talking about, while simultaneously saying you believe the vaccines are safe and effective but that you do know what you're talking about? You must be special.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> If you're blindly defending vaccines based on what you've read online you're basically doing this same shit as the Anti-Vaxx people. It's two sides of the same coin. You're arguing about something neither of you really understand.


See that's the great thing about science: so long as the results of an experiment or clinical trial can be reproduced, it doesn't require belief, faith, or even a deep understanding from laymen.  I'd much rather live in a world where the ignorant and uneducated constantly cite peer-reviewed studies without understanding any of the work that goes into them, than a world where they reject science entirely because they don't understand one small part of how it works.


----------



## CompSciOrBust (Apr 4, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I have, and everyone should. There's more than enough data to show that the vaccines are safe and effective.
> 
> Are you seriously arguing that most of the people who are arguing the vaccines are safe and effective don't know what they're talking about, while simultaneously saying you believe the vaccines are safe and effective but that you do know what you're talking about? You must be special.


Ok, if you have done that that's great. But like I said to the other guy my comments aren't made towards anyone specifically. Just in general. Yes I am arguing that most people that say the vaccine is safe and effective don't know what they're talking about while also saying the vaccine is safe and effective myself. Most people in this thread most likely do not have an education in biology or the scientific method, therefore they are arguing something without knowing what they're talking about. I could say that Water is healthier than Gatorade. Is it correct? I don't know, I'm not a dietary expert and I haven't looked at the data. I believe it is correct but I do not know that it is correct.



Xzi said:


> See that's the great thing about science: so long as the results of an experiment or clinical trial can be reproduced, it doesn't require belief, faith, or even a deep understanding from laymen.  I'd much rather live in a world where the ignorant and uneducated constantly cite peer-reviewed studies without understanding any of the work that goes into them, than a world where they reject science entirely because they don't understand one small part of how it works.



I'm not saying people should reject science. I just don't think that people should be arguing about things they don't understand. Something might be reproduceable but everyone reproducing it might be making a mistake because of something they don't realize. One example of this is that at one time everyone just assumed that only male birds sing. Why? Who knows but it was accepted as a fact. Now we know this to be false, female birds also sing. Obviously this is inconsequential but it's possible that we're making a similar assumption about the human body which when taken in to account would effect how we look at data from the vaccine trials. Also you can't have 100% faith in anything in science. Coginto, ergo sum. I think therefore I am. The only thing we can be 100% sure of it that we think and therefore we exist. Anything else could be an illusion produced by a mental illness. This might sound stupid to people without a scientific education but that's exactly why I don't think people without a scientific education should be debating things like vaccines.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Apr 4, 2021)

Honestly, even if you (the royal you against vaccinations, not directed at anyone here in particular) think the vaccinations are total bullshit or that they'll even have adverse effects on you, what kind of life do you intend to live otherwise as you move forward without getting vaccinated?  When the world is finally truly open again, there will be new rules that you'll have to adhere to if you want to experience much of what makes life worth living: world travel, concerts, festivals, amusement parks; you're not going to be able to experience all that and more without giving proof that you've been vaccinated.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> Ok, if you have done that that's great. But like I said to the other guy my comments aren't made towards anyone specifically. Just in general. Yes I am arguing that most people that say the vaccine is safe and effective don't know what they're talking about while also saying the vaccine is safe and effective myself. Most people in this thread most likely do not have an education in biology or the scientific method, therefore they are arguing something without knowing what they're talking about. I could say that Water is healthier than Gatorade. Is it correct? I don't know, I'm not a dietary expert and I haven't looked at the data. I believe it is correct but I do not know that it is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying people should reject science. I just don't think that people should be arguing about things they don't understand. Something might be reproduceable but everyone reproducing it might be making a mistake because of something they don't realize. One example of this is that at one time everyone just assumed that only male birds sing. Why? Who knows but it was accepted as a fact. Now we know this to be false, female birds also sing. Obviously this is inconsequential but it's possible that we're making a similar assumption about the human body which when taken in to account would effect how we look at data from the vaccine trials. Also you can't have 100% faith in anything in science. Coginto, ergo sum. I think therefore I am. The only thing we can be 100% sure of it that we think and therefore we exist. Anything else could be an illusion produced by a mental illness. This might sound stupid to people without a scientific education but that's exactly why I don't think people without a scientific education should be debating things like vaccines.


"People shouldn't argue X because they're not as smart as me when I argue X."

You don't have to be like me and have a biology degree in order to understand the vaccines are demonstrably safe and effective. It's also a very bold assumption to say a majority of the people in the thread who hold the same position as you don't know as much as you and shouldn't be talking about the subject.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> Also you can't have 100% faith in anything in science.


As I said, science doesn't require faith.  Theories are proven or disproven over time, just as our understanding of the universe deepens over time.



CompSciOrBust said:


> The only thing we can be 100% sure of it that we think and therefore we exist.


That would be philosophy, not science.  

There are also philosophical arguments which might refute that notion, but I won't take the thread off-topic by getting into that now.


----------



## CompSciOrBust (Apr 4, 2021)

Lacius said:


> "People shouldn't argue X because they're not as smart as me when I argue X."
> 
> You don't have to be like me and have a biology degree in order to understand the vaccines are demonstrably safe and effective. It's also a very bold assumption to say a majority of the people in the thread who hold the same position as you don't know as much as you and shouldn't be talking about the subject.


I didn't argue people aren't as smart as me. I'm saying people shouldn't be arguing about things they don't have an education in. To assume everyone here has a background in science is ludicrous. How are people supposed to know that things are safe if they don't know how the experiments are done or why it is done that way? Because they're told that it is safe? Anti-vaxxers are told that it is unsafe. Both people know just as much as the other they just believe different authorities. Yes people should listen to the scientists but unless they themselves have a background in science how should they know that the scientists should be trusted or which ones to trust? Dr Andrew Wakefield started the whole anti-vaxx thing and he himself was a scientists, a fraudulent scientists but he had a PHD.



Xzi said:


> As I said, science doesn't require faith.  Theories are proven or disproven over time, just as our understanding of the universe deepens over time.
> 
> 
> That would be philosophy, not science.
> ...


Science and Mathematics have their roots in philosophy. Before we gave science the name science, the people we call scientists today were called natural philosophers. Iirc it was around the time the baconian method of science became popular that we moved away from that name.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> Science and Mathematics have their roots in philosophy.


IIRC mathematics has its roots in ancient Egypt, whereas almost all the famous philosophers we know today didn't show up until the Greek and/or Roman empires were established.  I suppose you could also make the argument that religion is a form of philosophy.  Regardless, scientific experimentation has a far more rigid structure to it than philosophical thought.  For example: "what if we're all really butterflies who only perceive ourselves to be in human bodies?"  That's a perfectly legitimate theory from a philosophical standpoint, but as a scientific hypothesis I'd have no way of testing it or proving it true, making it rubbish from that perspective.


----------



## Cylent1 (Apr 4, 2021)

Xzi said:


> For example: "what if we're all really butterflies who only perceive ourselves to be in human bodies?"  That's a perfectly legitimate theory from a philosophical standpoint, but as a scientific hypothesis I'd have no way of testing it or proving it true, making it rubbish from that perspective.


Scientifically, DNA would prove otherwise.


----------



## CompSciOrBust (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Scientifically, DNA would prove otherwise.


Not necessarily because we could be hallucinating it or the DNA sample could be contaminated. Is that a bit out there? Yes but it is a possibility and science is supposed to be rigorous. That's why in science you never prove anything you only disprove it. Thank you for this comment actually because this supports what I was saying before about people without a background in science talking about science.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

Cylent1 said:


> Scientifically, DNA would prove otherwise.





CompSciOrBust said:


> Not necessarily because we could be hallucinating it but the DNA could be contaminated.


Yeah I was about to say something similar.  Maybe we're only seeing what we want to see.  Still a perfectly valid avenue to run through a philosophical thought exercise with, not at all valid from a scientific perspective to reject the DNA results outright like that.


----------



## CompSciOrBust (Apr 4, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Yeah I was about to say something similar.  Maybe we're only seeing what we want to see.  Still a perfectly valid avenue to run through a philosophical thought exercise with, not at all valid from a scientific perspective to reject the DNA results outright like that.


I would disagree. I'm not saying to reject the results but I think it would be unscientific to just accept the results as 100% correct. Skepticism is a part of the scientific method and to have faith that something is 100% correct is unscientific. We can go forward accepting that this is accurate but we need to have an open mind that it might not be. Without this mindset we'd never have paradigm shifts. We could go in to this but it's 6 AM and I'd rather not.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> Skepticism is a part of the scientific method and to have faith that something is 100% correct is unscientific. We can go forward accepting that this is accurate but we need to have an open mind that it might not be.


Well sure, we still call gravity a "theory" to this day after all.  The second a scientist starts to gain an inflated ego, the next guy comes along and successfully tests a hypothesis that invalidates much/all of his work.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> I didn't argue people aren't as smart as me. I'm saying people shouldn't be arguing about things they don't have an education in. To assume everyone here has a background in science is ludicrous. How are people supposed to know that things are safe if they don't know how the experiments are done or why it is done that way? Because they're told that it is safe? Anti-vaxxers are told that it is unsafe. Both people know just as much as the other they just believe different authorities. Yes people should listen to the scientists but unless they themselves have a background in science how should they know that the scientists should be trusted or which ones to trust? Dr Andrew Wakefield started the whole anti-vaxx thing and he himself was a scientists, a fraudulent scientists but he had a PHD.
> 
> 
> Science and Mathematics have their roots in philosophy. Before we gave science the name science, the people we call scientists today were called natural philosophers. Iirc it was around the time the baconian method of science became popular that we moved away from that name.


My point was that it's a little arrogant to assume a majority of the people arguing vaccines are safe and effective don't understand the science like you do.


----------



## notimp (Apr 4, 2021)

CompSciOrBust said:


> I didn't argue people aren't as smart as me. I'm saying people shouldn't be arguing about things they don't have an education in. To assume everyone here has a background in science is ludicrous. How are people supposed to know that things are safe if they don't know how the experiments are done or why it is done that way? Because they're told that it is safe? Anti-vaxxers are told that it is unsafe. Both people know just as much as the other they just believe different authorities. Yes people should listen to the scientists but unless they themselves have a background in science how should they know that the scientists should be trusted or which ones to trust? Dr Andrew Wakefield started the whole anti-vaxx thing and he himself was a scientists, a fraudulent scientists but he had a PHD.


Here is how you come to a conclusion - following logic and scientific proof.

First - the person you named is a proven fraundster, who has lost the approbation to perform as a medical doctor in his country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
https://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm

Why - and how do you prove it.

He had undisclosed financial incentives to promote a scare story - before he first did any research.

He talked about the syndrom he'd discover - before he'd done the research to discover the syndrom.

The evidence he presented was a small scale study (15 people picked for their symptoms) after which he started to go on a media circuit, which is also highly unusual

The end result was them getting public research funds in the millions and distributing them at their own disgression, until the (high incentive) of fraud was found out. That research (the one where you look at this at scale) never got finished.
--

Also - he aimed to 'prove' the effect of one combination vaccine - not vaccines in general, so whenever you make the 'ideological' jump to 'all vaccines' - its your fault. Not what he was saying.
--

Why did it work as a media play? You had a smart, eloquent middle class physician - who liked (partly because of an undisclosed financial incentive) to drum up media attention around his person. A FUD based message. And a general public, who in addition to trying to simplify things down to a level where people can easily digest things, were also confronted with the vaccine under contention being a combination vaccine against three illnesses -- which gets condensed down to 'all vaccines dangerous' because thats how 'the public mind' works - under uncertainty, aiming for complexity reduction.

Nothing unusual there, even expected.
--

"But hes also a scientist!"

Crowds look up to leadership figures, in periods of distress, to help them make up their minds. People in white coats are prime level 'influencer' material in that sense, especially if they are good looking and can talk.

Science doesnt make that shortcut. Science essentially is a bunch of techniques, that are employed, so you arrive at conclusions independent of the person. So a bunch of techniques, aimed at removing bias from the occasion.

One of those techniques is standardized statistical testing -- where the chance of something being a statistical fluke becomes smaller, and smaller - the more people you are testing. If your initial study only relies on 15 patients, which you handpicked -- its has no statistical validity. Meaning - it can be part of the beginning of looking at a phenomenon, but it cant be statistical proof. And statistical proof is what would actually change practices. And would be needed to come to a conclusion in a case like this.

But why trust statistics -- ? Essentially, because in the medical space they are usually good.  Why? Because the way to ask for/mark down a certain illness is well standardized (Hospitals participating in studies, have forms, that have to be written in a certain way to prevent bias). To get large scale studies, they are spread across different people that are in control of getting the data, that are not affiliated with the study, the data is then collected and whatever massaging you might be doing on the data front, will be put up against 'sanity checks', which makes it hard to falsify the results of your study to gain a certain result - because doing so, would lead to statistical abnormalities, that usually can be caught at large scale. In addition to that any of your findings, and the data you provide will go through a 'jury of your peers', who will risk their reputation by greenlighting your study results.

So essentially, if you are not running the studies yourself, its hard to falsify results. Which is the entire reason for the method. 
--

"But science isnt always right.."

Yes, and here are the ways it fails most often:

Observation bias: You seeing something you'd expect to see. Thats countered by you not running the study.

Statistical fluke: Thats countered by making the studies big. (And applying mathematical criteria for what is 'significant')

Results can not be reproduced: Thats countered by you having to write down your process in a way that other people can duplicate the research - then they look, if they can replicate your results. At this point you have nothing to do with that process anymore. 

People tried to reproduce his results, they never could.


Confirmation bias: This basically matters a bunch in the design stage of a study, so what your colleagues in a field think is 'state of the art' (scientific canon), will influence how you look at things, and induce implicit biases. (You dont look at all the alternatives, or...) Which is tried to be offset by the method how you formulate your design questions, but hardly ever is -- in the end, most of science has come to the conclusion that science needs to be 'falsification based' (deductive logic, not inductive logic), so you take your interest, you operationalize your research question, and then you try falsify it -- using criteria that removes sophistry (= what people might do that are good at talking), only if you cant falsify something, it is presumed 'true' in the end. And that 'truth' is not universal, but only holds as long as someone else cant disprove it. Thats what students and your pears are incentiviced to do btw - to get scientific renown. In the end this doesnt always work - but hey, you are trying.. 

But luckily for our case - confirmation bias on part of the entire scientific field was not what lead the study in conception - so thats not a likely issue where stuff 'did go wrong'.


Predictions: Thats an entirely different field, because you arent going off data, but the presumption that certain trends will develop the same in the future.  Essentially predictions are hard.

But luckily for our case - studies were data driven (past occurences), and deductive, so thats not a likely issue where stuff 'did go wrong'.

The last two are also why you are looking for 'scientific consensus' essentially meaning "most of my colleagues think the same". This is not 'hard data' but used in cases, where you dont have that (predictions, ...).
--

So in the end this is the logic you'd use to come to a decision on weither you should believe in a persons position or not.

You dont just read 'they have a white coat and a title' and call it a day ("I'm listening to science, yay!"). Except that the mob always does.  Because of complexity reduction. But thats well known, and thats why there are fallbacks in the scientific process to objectify, remove biases, separate questionaires from researchers, use big numbers to get higher statistical certainty... and so on and so forth.

And in the case you are promoting you have a guy, with 15 test subjects and a media blizz campaign, who was bought by an industry lawyer (lobbyist) to produce a certain result, and then got research funds in the millions, but never produced the 'reliable' results.

Whats scientifically reliable? Something that has reliability, reproducibility and validity.

reliability: Are the results statistically viable and do they lead to the causal result you are proposing, in the opinions of your peers (other scientists).
reproducibility: Can the results be independently reproduced (following the same method)
validity: Does it measure, what it aims to measure,

Thats science.

Science is a process. Not a charged up half god in white, you should believe in, because - look at his coat. 

If you find incongruences in that process, in any case - good on you, you are doing it right, you are trying to falsify a proposal.  But also remember, sophistry is out, so you cant win with verbiage, or making everyone worried. You have to win on facts. 

edit: Oh, and you also _have_ to disclose affiliations (financial incetiives) which he also didnt do. Its not easy getting your approbation taken away..


----------



## limpbiz411 (Apr 4, 2021)

i already got both doses of phizer


----------



## Xzi (Apr 5, 2021)

Got the J&J shot in my left arm a few hours ago, had a bit of a sympathetic reaction in my right arm that made it feel almost like a balloon, but that only lasted about ten minutes.  I also got to have the unique experience of being jabbed by my own mother, since she's a nurse and has been helping to vaccinate people at various clinics.  Feels good to have it in the rearview.


----------



## 6adget (Apr 6, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Got the J&J shot in my left arm a few hours ago, had a bit of a sympathetic reaction in my right arm that made it feel almost like a balloon, but that only lasted about ten minutes.



I have been a professional tattoo artist for a little over 20 years, although I'm retired now. I have worked in shops that had some of the toughest bikers, and gang members . And I have been fortunate enough to have worked in some of best shops in places like Hollywood, and Vegas. One thing that I can tell you with certainty is that the vast majority of people that pass out at just the sight of a needle is men. From my experience most women are tough as nails. 

  I'm not in any way trying to compare you to them. Your post just got me thinking. How many of those who say they are not getting vaccinated are men who secretly are nervous about the shot, and are worried they may pass out in front of everyone. I'm not laughing at them. Far from it. Anyone that is that afraid of a needle and still gets the vaccine is tough as nails in my book

  Oh, and tell your mom that she fucking rocks.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 6, 2021)

6adget said:


> I have been a professional tattoo artist for a little over 20 years, although I'm retired now. I have worked in shops that had some of the toughest bikers, and gang members . And I have been fortunate enough to have worked in some of best shops in places like Hollywood, and Vegas. One thing that I can tell you with certainty is that the vast majority of people that pass out at just the sight of a needle is men. From my experience most women are tough as nails.
> 
> I'm not in any way trying to compare you to them. Your post just got me thinking. How many of those who say they are not getting vaccinated are men who secretly are nervous about the shot, and are worried they may pass out in front of everyone. I'm not laughing at them. Far from it. Anyone that is that afraid of a needle and still gets the vaccine is tough as nails in my book
> 
> Oh, and tell your mom that she fucking rocks.


"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear."


----------



## Xzi (Apr 6, 2021)

6adget said:


> I have been a professional tattoo artist for a little over 20 years, although I'm retired now. I have worked in shops that had some of the toughest bikers, and gang members . And I have been fortunate enough to have worked in some of best shops in places like Hollywood, and Vegas. One thing that I can tell you with certainty is that the vast majority of people that pass out at just the sight of a needle is men. From my experience most women are tough as nails.


Yeah I've never had any issue with needles, most I don't feel going in at all.  It does seem to be a pretty common fear though, I've always wondered if maybe it's an evolutionary thing.  Like the subconscious is registering it as an insect's stinger or something along those lines.


----------



## Cha0tic (Apr 6, 2021)

get your vaccines

/end of thread


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 6, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I received my first dose of Pfizer about two weeks ago. I had no side-effects. I was worried I might, since I had COVID-19 in January, and people who have had it are more likely to experience second-dose side-effects on their first doses.





WeedZ said:


> I recently had the second dose of moderna, and it hurt me. Fever, aches, nausea, headache. I also had covid several months ago, so it could be that made it worse. But my first one was fine.


I don't get it. If you've already recovered from Covid and acquired immunity then why get vaccinated? Shouldn't you wait until the vaccines are updated to protect against the new variants with the (currently) vaccine-resistant spike protein?


----------



## Xzi (Apr 6, 2021)

AnAltOfDeletedUser said:


> I don't get it. If you've already recovered from Covid and acquired immunity then why get vaccinated?


We don't know how long that immunity lasts.



AnAltOfDeletedUser said:


> Shouldn't you wait until the vaccines are updated to protect against the new variants with the (currently) vaccine-resistant spike protein?


None of the variants have been shown to be vaccine-resistant yet, at least not to worrying levels.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 6, 2021)

AnAltOfDeletedUser said:


> I don't get it. If you've already recovered from Covid and acquired immunity then why get vaccinated? Shouldn't you wait until the vaccines are updated to protect against the new variants with the (currently) vaccine-resistant spike protein?


COVID-19 resistance from having the disease and recovering from it is temporary and probably only lasts 3-6 months, without even taking into account the variants potentially bringing that number down. Once you've recovered from the disease and have no traces of the virus left in you, your body eventually stops producing the antibodies. There also seems to be a correlation between how severe the symptoms were and how long the immunity lasts (i.e. those with few if any symptoms might have a shorter period of time they're resistant).

The vaccine, on the other hand, causes the body to produce its own viral spike proteins so your body is reacting to them and making those antibodies for what's probably a longer period of time (at least 6 months according to current data, but some estimates put the vaccine efficacy for potentially 2-3 years). Even if the resistance from the vaccine were only 6 months, that would be 6 months in addition to the 3-6 months from when you had the disease (totalling 9-12 months if you're vaccinating at the tail end of your natural immunity). Those who had COVID before being vaccinated may also get more resistance, and for longer, than those who didn't have it before being vaccinated, as it's almost like its own dose. In other words, three doses are better than two.

Tldr, everyone sbould be vaccinated, including those who have had the disease.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html


----------



## WeedZ (Apr 6, 2021)

AnAltOfDeletedUser said:


> I don't get it. If you've already recovered from Covid and acquired immunity then why get vaccinated? Shouldn't you wait until the vaccines are updated to protect against the new variants with the (currently) vaccine-resistant spike protein?


I'm a nurse, my employer required it. Without any vaccine youre more likely to get it again.


----------



## TryXXXWest (Apr 6, 2021)

in my region, we just got to the first stage... hope we will go to the next stage soooon


----------



## Taleweaver (Apr 6, 2021)

Jebus...

In Belgium, today's the first day in which you can volunteer to be a BACKUP recipient (meaning: if someone's called and doesn't show up, they'll invite someone from the backup list). This backup list is also prioritized by age (meaning: older people get priority). Nonetheless, I created an account as soon as possible.

Well...that is: I TRIED to create one. I started at 9AM this morning. There were 140'000 people waiting in front of me. Only just now (nearly 12 hours later), I finally have my account.

Extra fun fact: the vaccination center isn't active yet. Sooo...chances of getting a call soon are about the same as winning the lottery right now. 

(EDIT: for the record...Belgium has about 11 million inhabitants, of which little over a million have their first and/or second shot. Of the remaining, I'm fairly sure it's split in half, as this site is for inhabitants of Flanders. So I guess there were about 5-6 million people waiting to create an account. Oh, and I've heard that others had over 300'000 people waiting in line before them, so I'm still rather lucky in this regard  ).


----------



## plasturion (Apr 6, 2021)

I said no before and still consist there's no point. Goverment don't get real against facts, none serious medical debate, lies, placing people into house-jail and don't looking for real exit from this problem still using doubtful tests. If covid eventualy ends they act as they are prepared to release another biological weapon after all this mess. Just improve your immune system. That's all you need. Turn off tv and get out of this communism oppression before it'll be too late. Remember your immune system has second method response to fight with unknown viruses. It should be effective good enough, so vaccine is not necessary.


----------



## notimp (Apr 6, 2021)

plasturion said:


> I said no before and still consist there's no point. Goverment don't get real against facts, none serious medical debate, lies, placing people into house-jail and don't looking for real exit from this problem still using doubtful tests. If covid eventualy ends they act as they are prepared to release another biological weapon after all this mess. Just improve your immune system. That's all you need. Turn off tv and get out of this communism oppression before it'll be too late. Remember your immune system has second method response to fight with unknown viruses. It should be effective good enough, so vaccine is not necessary.


Let me step into this and analyze pathologies, because I have nothing better to at the moment.. 

Governments dont get real against facts - nonsequitor devoid of meaning, but carrying resentment and emotion. This might be true in some cases - not be true in others. Everyone can fill it up with their own meaning, and/or their own resentments. They can even be personal. (Its more effective then.)

No serious medical debates - partly comes from the fact that data doesnt need to be debated, and that you'd not want expert council decision making on this in the open, partly - because people would loose trust (more so than now..  ), partly because you are trying to influence behavior patters, so if you give people an isnight on whats coming, it might influence the outcome, at a certain point, negatively.

Lies - just used as a carrier for emotion

placing people into house jail - creative overamplification of whats happening - people arent urged to stay at home at all times (if they are not proven to be infected (self isolation), at which point you stay at home for about two weeks) --

not looking for a real exit -- false, they have enabled and fasttracked vaccine research (not done any research themselves, but 'aided' companies in the field)

still using doubtful tests -- now here is something that is correct. Publicly used tests, even as a mitigation measure arent very effective. You need tests to know whats going on - as a preventative measure, used past that point, they arent very effective.

then governments are still prepared to release another virus, after this one.. First we get a first glimps into the 'villain' image of the author, which is 'government' and nothing else too distinct - second, its false. While a direct submission from the bat population it was first discovered in to humans is unlikely at this point (virus RNA evolved too much in between), it being created in a lab also is unlikely, due to some mutations that occurred, that seem to be specific to an intermediary host. Covid seems to have evolved into its human to human submittable form, we dont know the entire path yet, is the current position most scientists in the field are holding -- also prone to forces above will shape my life in this way, following sinister motives and... - thinking, which while potentially true, usually isnt very likely. Personal comment -- for how 'planned' everything was in the minds of some, usually not very well informed people -- people actually struggled with a response quite a bit...

Just improve your immune system - its all you need -- issue, you cant.  Except for maybe a good sleep schedule, oh and keeping your respiratory system warm, which masks are doing, because Covid apparently replicates faster in a colder respiratory tract, but this plays into a large collection of pseudo scientific nonsense people are usually sold on by scamers - selling you vitamin supplements (eat healty, the end), nutritional supplements, home made miracle cures, ... and so on --

Turn off your tv -- agree, but also turn off your youtube 

And get out of communist oppression, before its too late -- now the thing here is a fundamental misunderstanding on how democracy works - people will make those rules for themselves, when the majority deems it useful -- there is literally nothing preventing them. You arent changing any of the fundamental rules/workings of democracies as of now. Well except for the US after an election and gerrymandering/reverse gerrymandering stuff, which they do for years right now - instead of actually changing policies to appeal to more people..  There is also a total neglect of the principle, that you arent doing this for you, but for the people around you (Part of how chances on masks and so on work).

Also - this has a definitive end -- in terms of the harshest measures (lockdowns), because they are so costly. You cant repeat the same measures for five years in a row, and expect the country to compete economically against nations who dont. Also all those measures are the race to fill the time towards vaccinations, with something that lowers infection rates, so less people get infected. The next time, people will already be on the lookout for mutations more actively and vaccine creation will be faster. (At least by a little bit..  )

Just get out and 'get it' your immune system is strong enough. - while statistically correct, talking to young people, statistics doesnt care about you or any other single case, so there is still personal risk that could be higher, personal effects on your health that could be long lasting -- and even more importantly - behavioral measures set  currently are aimed at protecting other people (so spread doesnt get out of hand - to the point where hospitals have to let other people die, because they are overrun with cases needing treatment for Covid).


Your immune system has second method response to fight it, also doesnt make any sense. Issue with Covid currently is, that after 60+ death rates spike enormously. And this would be the case every year from now on, if we dont get some form of herd immunity going. Second issue are long term effects, which arent well studied yet.
--


So to correct all the misinformation in one paragraph - ten paragraphs of text were needed. Not at all social media friendly. Oh my. 

Also emotional trigger words that drove the direction of the posting were "government, lies, biological warfare, communism, no vaccine needed"

This - is FUD. You dont ignore it, you confront it.

Oh and, no vaccine needed, your immune system is strong enough, also no behavioral measures needed, because thats just "them" controlling you - first lead to a pandemic, and to severe problems in countries that acted late, and or not harsh enough. (Italy as an example.) Because there, and in a few other places (New York, Brasil, ... they actually forged the death count - or simply made it not public anymore... ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil-idUSKBN23D0PW ) -- real 'doing nothing' numbers can bee looked at in the case of Brasil (search together with overmortality) (not taking into account population age or population density)) .

If you ignore it, this is not a forum anymore - this is you not caring about the quality of the place you are hanging out in.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 6, 2021)

plasturion said:


> If covid eventualy ends they act as they are prepared to release another biological weapon after all this mess.





 



plasturion said:


> Just improve your immune system. That's all you need.


Man if only all the people who died of the black plague, Spanish flu, and Polio knew about this one simple trick.  /s


----------



## plasturion (Apr 6, 2021)

Well, if anyone is infected you can still use proper treatment, like virusostatic medicine - amantadine - very effective even in serious cases for covid or _hydroxychloroquinum_. I've never seen even uv lamps in hospitals dedicated for covid. Where they are?


----------



## Lacius (Apr 6, 2021)

plasturion said:


> Well, if anyone is infected you can still use proper treatment, like virusostatic medicine - amantadine - very effective even in serious cases for covid or _hydroxychloroquinum_. I've never seen even uv lamps in hospitals dedicated for covid. Where they are?


The vaccine is far safer than contracting COVID-19, even when you take into account possible side effects and current COVID-19 treatments. And this doesn't even take into consideration the lives you save by no longer being a likely vector for the virus and not passing it to others. If you're sick with COVID-19, you will probably pass it to others, and them to others, and so on.

Hydroxychloroquine was ruled out as an effective treatment against COVID-19 a long time ago.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 6, 2021)

The virus is a bioweapon. So they vaccinate it, just so they can release another bioweapon? Also, apparently the vaccine itself is a bioweapon. Are there bioweapons all the way down?


----------



## notimp (Apr 7, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> The virus is a bioweapon. So they vaccinate it, just so they can release another bioweapon? Also, apparently the vaccine itself is a bioweapon. Are there bioweapons all the way down?


No, turtles.

On at least somewhat effective, cheap (and therefore available) medication, once you have it - we are getting there, but the risk of you still needing a hospital bed, is still too high in aggregate, to not use other measures as well. Fixed number of beds (pretty much), linear reduction of people not needing to stay at the hospital due to medication, near exponential growth rate - and them being able to spread the disease, three, four days before they show symptoms > means masks (in most countries as a mandate) and social distancing.

Otherwise math doesnt work. Sadly.

edit: Here is the replicates faster in colder respiratory tract news:
https://www.newswise.com/coronavirus/why-sars-cov-2-replicates-better-in-the-upper-respiratory-tract


----------



## plasturion (Apr 7, 2021)

what i want to add...
Face the facts we still don't know immune system good enough. But second method response of immune system - cellural respons with the lymphocytes t should be more expected with dealing with coronavirus, than creating antibodies that will not be effective with covid mutations.
The problem is time.. virus mutate faster than any good reaserches can be able to do to produce effective vaccine.
About saying different way of getting out from this pseudopandemic problem instead of vaccine is taking in example virisostatic meds with low side effects.. for example taking ivermectin dose once per week profilactic for all the people with higer risk.
Ivermectin and amantadine is prohibited in my country... i wish i could have a choice how to deal with potential infection and protect myself.


----------



## notimp (Apr 7, 2021)

plasturion said:


> Face the facts we still don't know immune system good enough. But second method response of immune system - cellural respons with the lymphocytes t should be more expected with dealing with coronavirus, than creating antibodies that will not be effective with covid mutations.


Presuming this means, that the bodies immune system will get a handle on things, once it produces enough lymphocytes.

"Than creating antibodies that will not be effective with covid --" first they are effective, quite effective actually. Its what allowed the president to cough on the steps of the white house mere days after he left Walter Read. Issue -- they are VERY expensive, and very short supply, so 90% of people even currently (decently ok (as in low) infection numbers) arent getting them. Like - ever.
(edit: On some people they dont work (very small percentage), and we dont know why. So yeah, thats fun also..  - but in general, they are very effective.)

Other medications developed/found (like the malaria medication thats cheap and widely available (no patents anymore)) have other vectors to work (havent read up on those yet, but they arent anti bodies).

Vaccines work differently. They trigger your bodies immune response, when no 'dangerous' virus is in your body, so it trains itself to produce immune cells, when it sees that virus again - but using a characteristic with the 'harmless' virus, thats also common with Covid. So if your body sees the virus, its immune response kicks in much faster. Meaning, you wont get sick (symptoms), and ideally you even are immune (you cant spread the virus, because it doesnt replicate in you (enough)).

There are a few ways to achieve this.

1. Kill or incapacitate the original virus, then give it as a vaccine.
Not that great, because if stuff goes wrong, you've given people the real deal. Also especially not ideal for Covid, because working with it in a laboratory environment is highly complicated, so producing more of that stuff, at scale (to then kill it), is kind of out of the question (too expensive).

2. Vector vaccine. You take a harmless influenca virus, thats similar to covid, but not covid (You can also take two and splice them together). You redesign it, so it has a "spike" thats similar to the one of Covid. (Spike protein). Immune system trains on that (vaccine), and then when Covid comes - it produces the same antibodies that already know how to attack a virus with that spike protein. You produce that virus, kill it , and use that for the vaccine. Thats the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, or Sputnik, or AstraZeneca all different approaches and ingredients, but same basic idea and method.

3. mRNA method. You modify the mRNA payload of an existing virus, to produce dead things with that spike on them, so the immune system can train on them, once they get produced by your cells. PRODUCED BY MY CELLS OMG! Neh. Virus reproduces this way in general. It hooks into some of your cells, reproduces itself in high numbers using the 'production bench' of the cell, cell then dies after a while, you are just changing payload. This can be made highly effective, because of - reasons.. 


Why produce vaccines and not 'medication'. First our best medication (synthetic anti bodies) is _very_ expensive and not readily available (not even for the US much less the world), our second to best medications are far less effective.

Second, that would still have a bunch of people in hospital at once, taking medication (and a bunch of them not needing to go to hospital, but still the growth rate is the issue (them spreading, before they know they have it)).

Third, its more expensive than a vaccine in production.

Vaccine is 1 or 2 shots, and you are done for a year (actually about 6 months, but if you set the vaccination period into the second half of a year (when its getting colder) and you have mass immunity going for a while, that might very well be enough for an entire year at least (even with mutations), fingers crossed).

But vaccine only is 70% effective! (Some 90%.) Thats why you give most of them twice (few months separated), then its effective enough. That that number got high play in the public discussion, was mostly useless. (If you are afraid of getting vaccinated twice, get the one, where you only need one shot, I guess (Johnson & Johnson in the US)). Also stuff with how that percentage is measured, Its not that 10% of people are still getting it, its a flat out 70-90% reduction in infections towards a control population, so percentage of people for whom it 'doesnt work' on a first shot is _far_ smaller than 10-30 percent in the overall population. (Probably single digit, probably less than one percent (someone look up that number..  ) )


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 9, 2021)

Here a Reason,why we have to go to Testing/Vaccination:

https://www.krone.at/2386040
(German)

Every second Austrian hardly ever or never goes for a corona test. 
More and more people seem to refuse to deal with the issue altogether, explains researcher Bernhard Kittel.

The Article is about "Research" from this Mister Kittel.
(Not really worth to read.....)

...but one important Sentence for us Test/Vacciantionrefusers:

_*"Jene, die sich testen lassen, seien jünger und besser gebildet, erklärt der Wissenschafter, der auch Anzeichen eines Normwandels ortet."*_

_*"Those who get tested are younger and better educated, explains the scientist, who also detects signs of a change in norms."
*_
Well....


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Apr 10, 2021)

I don't exactly trust it yet, and I'm young and healthy. Immune system should work fine for me.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 11, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I don't exactly trust it yet, and I'm young and healthy. Immune system should work fine for me.


Cases and deaths are on the rise primarily for the 18-34 age group in most parts of the country right now.  We've recently also got data showing that about a third of COVID survivors come out of it with neurological/mental damage.  At any age, catching it is a huge gamble.  The younger you are, however, the less likely you are to have an adverse reaction to the vaccine.  And the odds of that are already really low for older age groups.

Your body, your choice of course, but your brain still has several years of development ahead.  I wouldn't take any unnecessary risks with it.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 11, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I don't exactly trust it yet, and I'm young and healthy. Immune system should work fine for me.


You're taking a lot more of a personal risk by not getting the vaccine. In addition, you're risking the health of others by not being vaccinated.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Apr 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You're taking a lot more of a personal risk by not getting the vaccine. In addition, you're risking the health of others by not being vaccinated.


well if I'm being honest I don't really trust the vaccine at all lol. Especially the way in America they're going to make it mandatory for travel


----------



## Xzi (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> well if I'm being honest I don't really trust the vaccine at all lol. Especially the way in America they're going to make it mandatory for travel


It's the destination countries which require you to have your vaccines up-to-date, and this isn't a new rule put in place for COVID-19.  International travel has always had these types of requirements to help prevent certain localized viruses and diseases from being spread around the globe.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Apr 12, 2021)

Xzi said:


> It's the destination countries which require you to have your vaccines up-to-date, and this isn't a new rule put in place for COVID-19.  International travel has always had these types of requirements to help prevent certain localized viruses and diseases from being spread around the globe.


yes but many American states are beginning to consider/ enact this rule. And it's new for this vaccine. And if I'm being honest, I don't trust it at all. Or the pandemic. Doesn't add up to me.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> yes but many American states are beginning to consider/ enact this rule. And it's new for this vaccine. And if I'm being honest, I don't trust it at all. Or the pandemic. Doesn't add up to me.


Most states already had a 14-day quarantine rule in place for those traveling across state lines.  Proof of vaccination just allows you to skip that.  

A virus doesn't care whether you trust it or not.  Surely you've at least had one friend or family member catch it by now.  If not, you're extremely fortunate and should desire to keep your household infection-free.

This probably won't be the last pandemic I see in my lifetime, and so the chances of someone your age seeing another are even higher.  Lots of factors play into that, two in particular being the way we treat the Earth and our livestock.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Apr 12, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Most states already had a 14-day quarantine rule in place for those traveling across state lines.  Proof of vaccination just allows you to skip that.
> 
> A virus doesn't care whether you trust it or not.  Surely you've at least had one friend or family member catch it by now.  If not, you're extremely fortunate and should desire to keep your household infection-free.
> 
> This probably won't be the last pandemic I see in my lifetime, and so the chances of someone your age seeing another are even higher.  Lots of factors play into that, two in particular being the way we treat the Earth and our livestock.


I don't mean trust it in that way XD I mean I don't entirely believe in its legitimacy. My dad caught "it", but showed cold symptoms. Not saying it's a total fraud, but I know even in places like Estonia the government has been listing anything and everything as covid to keep the numbers up.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I don't mean trust it in that way XD I mean I don't entirely believe in its legitimacy. My dad caught "it", but showed cold symptoms. Not saying it's a total fraud, but I know even in places like Estonia the government has been listing anything and everything as covid to keep the numbers up.


My symptoms were also pretty mild, except for two days where I felt like my lung capacity was reduced by about half.  If anything that just makes COVID even more fearsome, since a person can have no symptoms whatsoever and still pass it to a person who then dies.  The common cold has never come anywhere close to killing 500,000 Americans in a single year as long as I've been alive.

As for fudging the numbers, that's almost always done to make governments look like they're handling the pandemic better than they are in reality.  For example, North Korea, which continues to claim it has zero cases.  Nobody stands to gain anything by inflating their COVID case count.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I don't mean trust it in that way XD I mean I don't entirely believe in its legitimacy. My dad caught "it", but showed cold symptoms. Not saying it's a total fraud, but I know even in places like Estonia the government has been listing anything and everything as covid to keep the numbers up.


COVID-19 exists, and it has killed approximately 562,000 Americans, including two of my family members.

I understand a person taking calculated risks regarding their own health, and I understand having irrational fears about vaccines or needles in general, but the decision to engage in conspiratorial thinking and not get vaccinated puts other people at risk. There is a moral imperative to be vaccinated as soon as one can be vaccinated. Your choices do not only affect yourself.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Apr 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> COVID-19 exists, and it has killed approximately 562,000 Americans, including two of my family members.
> 
> I understand a person taking calculated risks regarding their own health, and I understand having irrational fears about vaccines or needles in general, but the decision to engage in conspiratorial thinking and not get vaccinated puts other people at risk. There is a moral imperative to be vaccinated as soon as one can be vaccinated.


I wouldn't consider it "conspirital" but I don't think it is the right decision to  be vaxxed asap or even at all. I wouldn't call my fear irrational either. Especially when you consider the very minimal (and non-existent) coverage the media has given negative side effects of the vaccine, as well as Facebook and Twitter's removal of any vaccine-suspicious posts, as well as all of them being pro-vax passionately.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> My symptoms were also pretty mild, except for two days where I felt like my lung capacity was reduced by about half.  If anything that just makes COVID even more fearsome, since a person can have no symptoms whatsoever and still pass it to a person who then dies.  The common cold has never come anywhere close to killing 500,000 Americans in a single year as long as I've been alive.
> 
> As for fudging the numbers, that's almost always done to make governments look like they're handling the pandemic better than they are in reality.  For example, North Korea, which continues to claim it has zero cases.  Nobody stands to gain anything by inflating their COVID case count.


I'm not saying that covid is the same as common cold, but rather the gov labels common colds and other like illnesses as covid. The symptoms they've been listing can align with any existing illness and aren't really new. Just saying, it's  a little fishy.
And let's just say.... companies and a certain country who controls flow of media in America HAVE profited off of the disease.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I wouldn't consider it "conspirital" but I don't think it is the right decision to  be vaxxed asap or even at all. I wouldn't call my fear irrational either. Especially when you consider the very minimal (and non-existent) coverage the media has given negative side effects of the vaccine, as well as Facebook and Twitter's removal of any vaccine-suspicious posts, as well as all of them being pro-vax passionately.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


COVID-19 is a very infectious and potentially deadly disease. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be effective. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe. Even taking into consideration the possible side effects, the vaccine is many times safer than the risk of contracting COVID-19. The science is very clear, and saying "I don't trust the pandemic is real" or "I don't trust the vaccine" when both statements fly in the face of the science is, respectfully, conspiratorial, and this kind of conspiratorial thinking is literally and demonstrably going to get people killed.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Apr 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> COVID-19 is a very infectious and potentially deadly disease. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be effective. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe. Even taking into consideration the possible side effects, the vaccine is many times safer than the risk of contracting COVID-19. The science is very clear, and saying "I don't trust the pandemic is real" or "I don't trust the vaccine" when both statements fly in the face of the science is, respectfully, conspiratorial.


I don't believe the science.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I don't believe the science.


The science is clear, and I suggest you look into how the aforementioned scientific conclusions were reached.

The science is true whether or not you believe it.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I'm not saying that covid is the same as common cold, but rather the gov labels common colds and other like illnesses as covid.


Yeah that's a theory I've heard before, but firstly, it isn't government data, it's an aggregate of hospital data, and secondly, the question you have to ask yourself is: why?  What benefit would anybody gain from that?  The answer is none.  Occasionally there is a misdiagnoses or false positives show up, yes.  If you watch your local news you can see daily case counts go up, and very occasionally go down because of a false positive or something along those lines.  People are imperfect, but that's not really a conspiracy.



BlazeMasterBM said:


> And let's just say.... companies and a certain country who controls flow of media in America HAVE profited off of the disease.


In capitalist America the rich (corporations) get richer, that's not really a conspiracy either.  It just means time is moving forward.  I'd recommend wasting less energy searching for someone to blame for natural phenomena, and dedicate more to figuring out how we get past this whole pandemic phase as quickly as possible.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Apr 12, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Yeah that's a theory I've heard before, but firstly, it isn't government data, it's an aggregate of hospital data, and secondly, the question you have to ask yourself is: why?  What benefit would anybody gain from that?  The answer is none.  Occasionally there is a misdiagnoses or false positives show up, yes.  If you watch your local news you can see daily case counts go up, and very occasionally go down because of a false positive or something along those lines.  People are imperfect, but that's not really a conspiracy.
> 
> 
> In capitalist America the rich (corporations) get richer, that's not really a conspiracy either.  It just means time is moving forward.  I'd recommend wasting less energy searching for someone to blame for natural phenomena, and dedicate more to figuring out how we get past this whole pandemic phase as quickly as possible.


It's not much of a capitalist problem, and it would be 10x worse in socialism anyway. I agree, there's not much we can do even if the truth is revealed about who is behind it. Which is the sad part.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 12, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> It's not much of a capitalist problem, and it would be 10x worse in socialism anyway.


Our ridiculous wage and wealth disparity is unquestionably an unchecked capitalism problem.  And corporations did see greater profits during the pandemic while small businesses suffered most.  But that doesn't mean I jump to the conclusion that Amazon engineered COVID-19.  Occam's Razor is an important tool to use often.



BlazeMasterBM said:


> I agree, there's not much we can do even if the truth is revealed about who is behind it. Which is the sad part.


Then you don't agree, because I just stated it's a _natural phenomena_.  There are all sorts of "new" viruses and diseases out in the world, just waiting for permafrost to melt or for people to eat the wrong insect/animal.  Like I said, this won't be the last pandemic you or I see in our lifetimes.  At the rate climate change is moving, we can be certain of that.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 12, 2021)

https://www.krone.at/2387367

His disability is thought to have resulted from a Vaccination when he was a baby. Since then,Franz-Joseph Huainigg, ex-VP spokesman for the disabled and ORF commissioner for accessibility,has not had himself "pricked" - until now.

How desperate must our Austrian Government be,to do SUCH a Thing in Public....
Honestly,when you read this,you HAVE to get vaccinated....

_*Huainigg: "The decision whether to get vaccinated or not is a very personal one. But this is a vaccination recommendation to all those who are still hesitating."*_

Yes,you have to trust this Vaccination Recommendation from Mr. Huainigg.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 13, 2021)

Looks like Johnson & Johnson is also being halted.


----------



## Jiolo_Miles (Apr 13, 2021)

I think the worlds reaction to this virus was way overboard. Here in the United States the democratic party masterfully use it to ram an unpopular candidate, some elected officials got drunk with power and practically ruled as petty dictators, a lot of people lost their jobs, businesses close and civil unrest plagued many cities. I'm not taking the vaccine because my chances of dying are almost zero. where I live, I'm more likely to get rob, murder or die in a car accident but no one is hysterically forcing me to stay home because of it.


----------



## plasturion (Apr 13, 2021)

Nice, favourite quotes of our heroes defending us and our safety.
Health minister - Niedzielski: "There will only be more biological threats. What's more: they will be more and more dangerous and the world will react to them differently than it has so far. Sanitary inspections will be one of the best equipped institutions in all countries.",
*"If you ask me if we will go back to pre-pandemic times, then no. We will not be back. Never!"
*
I must admit that this man has a real trust in medicine's development progress.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 13, 2021)

For the record, the Johnson & Johnson side-effects being discussed in the news right now are extremely rare, and the vaccine is still relatively safe, particularly when contrasted with contracting COVID-19. The pause is good because these concerns about blood clots need to be explicitly acknowledged so people are aware of them, look out for them, and know how to treat them. In other words, the concern isn't so much the potential side effect exists; the concern is that there's transparency about what the possible side-effects are.


----------



## Xzi (Apr 13, 2021)

J&J is being halted in a few select areas, but in most states they simply ran out of it.  I knew it was gonna be in short supply because of the early manufacturing hiccups, so I'm glad I got it the second it was made available here.  Six more days to full protection.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Apr 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> For the record, the Johnson & Johnson side-effects being discussed in the news right now are extremely rare, and the vaccine is still relatively safe...



Please explain that our (Experts) in the EU / in Europe....


Additonal Information:

https://orf.at/stories/3209053/
(German)

J&J delays vaccine shipment in Europe

U.S. pharmaceutical company Johnson & Johnson (J&J) is delaying the shipment of its CoV vaccine in Europe. It had reviewed reports of cerebral vein thrombosis and "proactively" decided to take the step, it said Tuesday - just on the day the manufacturer's first doses arrived in Austria.

"Until there is clarity about any side effects, these doses will not be delivered to the vaccination centers and will not be vaccinated," the health ministry said of the 16,800 doses that arrived in Austria. A total of 2.5 million were ordered. J&J had only begun shipping its vaccine, approved in March, to EU states on Monday.


----------



## notimp (Apr 14, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Please explain that our (Experts) in the EU / in Europe....
> 
> 
> Additonal Information:
> ...


Austria has gotten almost no J&J so far afaik - one recent shipment were 3600 units, which is nothing - afair the week before the J&J export stop.

You also have to differentiate between risk of someone dying/becoming seriously injured because of the vaccine and just the general calculation for how many less people will die if just you give out the vaccine.

Just to give you a sense of what we are talking about - the vector vaccines (of which J&J is one) lead to an about 500x higher likelyhood of one specific (rare) form of thrombosis - leading to 20 people throughout germany being suspected to have gotten that - and about two of them dying (thats out of 15 million who have gotten at least one shot - most of which were AZ (the vector vaccine where this 500x thing was noted).

As a result giving it to people entirely was put on hold for a few days, while the problem was researched, then a treatment for the problem was created, then using the vaccine again was greenlit, but only for people older than 60. Calculations in the background are concerning "potentially affected 'good' life years" - so out of ethical concernes you only give it to your 60+ years population.

Remember this is still while in aggregate saving many more lives through the vaccine - issue, the people who might die because of it, might not be the same that would have died from Covid -- so as a result you are _required_ to at least mitigate that number. (Thats the few days where giving it out entirely was paused - until a remedy was found (issue you need to be in hospital for the remedy  ).)

Thats the logic that should be behind the pause, and the eventual continuation.

On J&J we are at the pause stage. US has more options, because potentially they could press forward with Pfizer and Moderna (not showing that (very, very rare statistically) issue, but at a significantly later date of most people getting vaccinated in the US.
--

In states with many fewer people (like Austria), you might not stop giving it out at all, and might not even start giving it out only to the old folks (less potential good life years harmed), simply because statistically you wouldnt see even one death, or only one death from the complication. This should be (I'm guessing) the cause why austria didnt stop.
-

"But you told people, that it was tested and safe!" Issue - the entire testing population, was tens of thousands of people, but likely too small for the issue to show up in statistics, remember, for germany the risk of this occuring from the AZ vaccine might end up being around 1:750000. 

Statistics. They are fun.

So you only see it in wide roleout, and have to react to it in wide roleout, which the US are doing with J&J currently.

And germany did with AZ a few weeks back.

And austria didnt at all (react), because it has too small of a population for it to matter statistically (doesnt mean you'd not get a handful of cases, much lower deaths caused by it (if its causal is an entire discussion in itself - but at least some notable voices currently say - probably, yes)).



All of this is specualative - but usually about how this should normally go -- I dont know if there are PR reasons for stopping as well. (Public starts to talk about why did they stop, reaction is "they are looking after us" as it gets discussed, and people notice, that the issue is very small - statistically, therefore more people might get vaccinated overall -- I dont know.

Answer - I dont know. But those are my guesses.


----------



## notimp (Apr 21, 2021)

If you havent heard, as of yesterday - everyone in the US is now eligible to get vaccinated:


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 30, 2021)

Help, I am being controlled...

The only thing that I felt afterwards was a really sore arm on the second shot.


----------



## Armadillo (May 19, 2021)

First dose for me booked for Tuesday .


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (May 19, 2021)

shaunj66 said:


> Getting my first vaccine dose this afternoon


Can't believe this site is run by brainwashed soy-filled cucks /s


----------



## Seliph (May 19, 2021)

Don't take the vaccine it made me a lesbian


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (May 19, 2021)

Seliph said:


> Don't take the vaccine it made me a lesbian


It made me a girl

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Even worse, it made me a windows user


----------



## Seliph (May 19, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Even worse, it made me a windows user


Switch to Windese


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (May 19, 2021)

Seliph said:


> Switch to Windese


I prefer candice


----------



## The Catboy (May 19, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> It made me a girl


Shit, I knew I felt more femme after my first shot!

Side note, I got my first shot done last Friday


----------



## emigre (May 20, 2021)

I got vaxxed on Saturday. Can feel my DNA change.


----------



## Flame (May 20, 2021)

emigre said:


> I got vaxxed on Saturday. Can feel my DNA change.



who cares about the DNA. hows your 5G service. did it improve?


----------



## emigre (May 21, 2021)

Flame said:


> who cares about the DNA. hows your 5G service. did it improve?



Haven't checked. Been more focused in hoping turn I turn into Spiderman.


----------



## Armadillo (May 25, 2021)

Got my first dose of pfizer today. Don't really feel anything, but only been a couple of hours, so we'll see.


----------



## RandomUser (May 28, 2021)

Finally! Fully vaccinated as of last Friday (1 week ago).
The second dose, was more then a sore arm. It kicked my ass, however a couple of Tylenol seems to have helped shortened the downtime.


----------



## KingVamp (May 29, 2021)

For the people that are anti-vax because government, do you guys just don't go to doctors at all?


----------



## spotanjo3 (May 29, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> For the people that are anti-vax because government, do you guys just don't go to doctors at all?



Thats not the point. I am anti flu vaccine and never got flu for over 12 years. For COVID-19, it is serious and I do get the fully vaccinated already. Big difference. Most people go to doctors for their own reasons but nothing to do with anti-vaccine COVID-19. Look at me, I am anti-vaccine FLU for over 12 years and never got sick. Some are afraid of COVID-19 vaccine because some died from it just like FLU vaccine. They have their own rights. Respect them. 

For anybody who is anti-vaccine COVID-19... Please wear mask and respect us too!


----------



## ut2k4master (May 29, 2021)

spotanjo3 said:


> Thats not the point. I am anti flu vaccine and never got flu for over 12 years. For COVID-19, it is serious and I do get the fully vaccinated already. Big difference. Most people go to doctors for their own reasons but nothing to do with anti-vaccine COVID-19. Look at me, I am anti-vaccine FLU for over 12 years and never got sick. Some are afraid of COVID-19 vaccine because some died from it just like FLU vaccine. They have their own rights. Respect them.
> 
> For anybody who is anti-vaccine COVID-19... Please wear mask and respect us too!


you didnt get the flu because other people got vaccinated


----------



## shaunj66 (May 29, 2021)

I've now had my first and second AZ jabs and I didn't get side effects from either. 

I do love the NHS


----------



## GeekyGuy (May 29, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> For the people that are anti-vax because government, do you guys just don't go to doctors at all?



Unfortunately, I see three separate doctors regularly (cancer). Not a one of them recommended I get vaccinated. Matter of fact, my overseeing neurologist said he hasn't gotten it himself because he's leery of it, since it seems to have been put out there fairly quickly. For me, though, the bottom line is what my work requires of me to return from leave. If they say it's necessary, I'm fine with it. But I'm not rushing out to get it either, especially without the endorsement of my physicians. But I'm not anti-vaccine either. Everyone, I feel, should be able to make the determination for themselves.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

GeekyGuy said:


> Matter of fact, my overseeing neurologist said he hasn't gotten it himself because he's leery of it, since it seems to have been put out there fairly quickly.


With someone in that position you'd think he would know better, the vaccines went through three phases of clinical trials just as they would need to for full approval.  The EUA only rushed the bureaucratic side of things, not the scientific/biological.  As proof, we have recently-declining case rates in many parts of the country.

Additionally, there are several good sources online which describe in precise detail the way in which the vaccines work and the science behind them.  Up to the individual whether they actually want to seek out/see the truth on that matter though.



GeekyGuy said:


> Everyone, I feel, should be able to make the determination for themselves.


Sure.  Ideally we'd get to 70-80% of adults immunized to reach herd immunity, but obviously the state isn't gonna force anybody.  A lot of states will just do cash lotteries, it's driven up interest in the few that have implemented one so far.  Americans all like to pretend we're just temporarily embarrassed millionaires.


----------



## spotanjo3 (May 29, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> you didnt get the flu because other people got vaccinated



Right

However, I know some people in my group don't get vaccines. I didn't get the flu because I worked in office alone and I don't know everyone who got and some don't. So I avoid the crowds all the time. I eat with few friends I knew are vaccines and sometime I eat alone in the office. 

Some of them was absent a lot because they got sick and some are flu. I also didn't get bad cold for over 15 years too. I never used the heat in the car and in the house. I keep temperature in balance to match outside and inside the house. 

By the way, I got fully vaccine of COVID-19 and I didn't get sick like many people reported. Just sore on my arm if people touch you a little bit hard. LOL.


----------



## Iamapirate (May 29, 2021)

If I'm urged to live as if I haven't been vaccinated and I can still transmit the virus then I don't see a reason why I would.


----------



## emigre (May 29, 2021)

After I was vaxxed for the first time, I pretty fucked up with side effects for a few days. Am looking forward to my second dose, am planning to use sick leave.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

Iamapirate said:


> If I'm urged to live as if I haven't been vaccinated and I can still transmit the virus then I don't see a reason why I would.


In the United States, you're not being urged to live as if you haven't been vaccinated. If you've been fully vaccinated, you mostly get to go back to normal and not wear masks. If you haven't been vaccinated, you have to wear masks and socially distance.

We also know that if you've been vaccinated, you're highly unlikely to contract the virus and spread it.


----------



## fille (May 29, 2021)

I got moderna wednesday,sick for 3days now,its not normal,i must think for the second injection if i gona do that.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

fille said:


> I got moderna wednesday,sick for 3days now,its not normal,i must think for the second injection if i gona do that.


The side effects are worth the benefits of getting vaccinated. Please get the second dose when it's time to do so. The side effects might be less severe the second time if they were already pretty bad the first time.


----------



## tpax (May 29, 2021)

I'm not getting a vaccine. Things aren't going well for people in Germany, who won't let the government push the poison in their veins, since you're getting treated like a second class citizen.
I'm fortunate to have enough capital to move to almost any country in this world. If things won't get better here, we're going to move to Sweden (at least short-term). Right now the debate to forcefully vaccine kids is hot right now. If that's gonna get greenlit, we're gone. Not gonna let the government poison my kids. Few million Euro taxes less every year, good job, Germany.


----------



## leon315 (May 29, 2021)

UPDATE 29/05/2021

Beside my early doubts about vaccines, my 60yo parents both got Pfizer vaccine yesterday, they only got mild symptons of sneezes or coughs, but they are fine. Recently EU has introduced the Green pass Bill, basically allows those 1-2 shot vaccinated people benefit to travel freely within EU borders, no more mask restriction and allowed to participate pubblic event like wedding, conventions or most importantly *parties!
*
I'm definitely getting vaccinated and can't wait to get *cruise *this summer!


----------



## g00s3y (May 29, 2021)

Imagine being a fucking idiot who refuses to wear a mask and/or refuses to get vaccinated.

Refusing to believe in science because "the magic man in the sky will keep me safe"...


----------



## JaapDaniels (May 29, 2021)

i'd still get my vaccin (if everything gets done as planned i'm up for next month here, and yes i'd even go for the AstraZeneca (Vaxzevria) or Janssen.
on 8,5 milion vaccinated people in my country there were only 16 people (13 females, 3 males) with trombose.
only 2 people died suspicious in the same timeline.
seriously that's not something shocking at all.
i'm pretty sure that there are more people dying on painkillers. you wouldn't pass one of those when needed,
without vaccins the killing rate of covid-19 is far worse and i've seen a few around me pass away or getting at the IC in the hospitals.
i'd rather die as a human then like a mouse.


----------



## SG854 (May 29, 2021)

GeekyGuy said:


> Unfortunately, I see three separate doctors regularly (cancer). Not a one of them recommended I get vaccinated. Matter of fact, my overseeing neurologist said he hasn't gotten it himself because he's leery of it, since it seems to have been put out there fairly quickly. For me, though, the bottom line is what my work requires of me to return from leave. If they say it's necessary, I'm fine with it. But I'm not rushing out to get it either, especially without the endorsement of my physicians. But I'm not anti-vaccine either. Everyone, I feel, should be able to make the determination for themselves.


I was saying that earlier in this thread to a reply to I think it was @GhostLatte that the vaccine isn't FDA approved. It was put out too fast under emergency orders which can be revoked at any time. And that we shouldn't shame people who are weary of the vaccine because of that.

There can be other effects we don't know about yet. I still took it because I don't care if something negative happens too me, for me it's a oh well situation.


----------



## Armadillo (May 29, 2021)

shaunj66 said:


> I've now had my first and second AZ jabs and I didn't get side effects from either.
> 
> I do love the NHS



I thought under 40s were not being offered AZ, only pfizer & moderna.


----------



## MohammedQ8 (May 29, 2021)

I wont will never get vaccinated but I also dont let anyone visits me nor go shopping very often.

You vaccinated idiots got it and protect me from it so why should I get vaccinated?


----------



## fille (May 29, 2021)

MohammedQ8 said:


> I wont will never get vaccinated but I also dont let anyone visits me nor go shopping very often.
> 
> You vaccinated idiots got it and protect me from it so why should I get vaccinated?




If we ''those idiots'' didnt get vaccinated,you have a big chance you will ever get covid,so think before you post nonsense.
I have severe astma,so have not much choice.


----------



## shaunj66 (May 29, 2021)

Armadillo said:


> I thought under 40s were not being offered AZ, only pfizer & moderna.


I got the first dose before that was put into effect. Not that I'm bothered given the rarity of side effects


----------



## MohammedQ8 (May 29, 2021)

fille said:


> If we ''those idiots'' didnt get vaccinated,you have a big chance you will ever get covid,so think before you post nonsense.
> I have severe astma,so have not much choice.


I didnt get for one and half year and if more people get vaccinated the chances of me getting should be even lower right? so I will not take it.

if you got vaccinated .... thank you for protecting me lol. I protected myself long enough and I am not getting it.


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> I was saying that earlier in this thread to a reply to I think it was @GhostLatte that the vaccine isn't FDA approved. It was put out too fast under emergency orders which can be revoked at any time. And that we shouldn't shame people who are weary of the vaccine because of that.
> 
> There can be other effects we don't know about yet. I still took it because I don't care if something negative happens too me, for me it's a oh well situation.



I agree with the sentiment that people should not be pushing others to take the vaccine.  Nobody has presented credentials in doing so.  

That being said, I wish you would value your life more.  You seem to value others more than yourself, which is better than doing the contrary--but still not ideal.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tpax said:


> I'm not getting a vaccine. Things aren't going well for people in Germany, who won't let the government push the poison in their veins, since you're getting treated like a second class citizen.
> I'm fortunate to have enough capital to move to almost any country in this world. If things won't get better here, we're going to move to Sweden (at least short-term). Right now the debate to forcefully vaccine kids is hot right now. If that's gonna get greenlit, we're gone. Not gonna let the government poison my kids. Few million Euro taxes less every year, good job, Germany.


The vaccines are not "poison."


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines are not "poison."



Technically vaccines have been considered a weak "poison" that teaches your body to overcome its basic properties.  The current "vaccine" reprograms DNA, which might be worse than the conventional idea of poison to some people.  I fail to see your qualifications.


----------



## mdmachine (May 29, 2021)

Been vaccinated (Pfizer) for a while now, never had any problems at all. And my girl got her 2nd shot (Moderna) a few days ago, she was a little sick for a day.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Technically vaccines have been considered a weak "poison" that teaches your body to overcome its basic properties.  The current "vaccine" reprograms DNA, which might be worse than the conventional idea of poison to some people.  I fail to see your qualifications.


The current vaccine does not "reprogram your DNA."


----------



## SG854 (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The current vaccine does not "reprogram your DNA."


A couple of users are turning gay you may want to rethink your position


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> A couple of users are turning gay you may want to rethink your position


If only that were true.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

My neck of the Woods, Sinovac was the first type given out and which my Parent took.

My Family's Medical Circle, all of whom are Senior Doctors, all took Sinovac and at least I have that as On-the-Ground evidence of its efficacy, alongside the information given Online from several Countries.

I was given the option to take either AstraZeneca or Sinovac and I'm choosing the latter.
AstraZeneca's only argument against Blood Clotting is that the odds are far lower than people dying of COVID-19.

As I've never been a lucky person, I figure my luck is already being used up to avoid death by COVID-19, so I'm not putting chips on a gamble with its Vaccine either.

The current worst odds for AstraZeneca Blood-Clotting is put at 1:100,000, which for The United States at 300+ Million is at 3K people. Their best odds are 1:250,000, which is roughly 1.2K people.

Again. Not a gambling man.
Sinovac it is, next month.


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The current vaccine does not "reprogram your DNA."



The jury is still out on that, but I will admit that I jumped the gun.  The instruction set of the mRNA effectively lies on behalf of the DNA.  Feedback loops resulting from such have the "potential" of influencing DNA.  I call it "potential" because I believe it does.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

PiracyForTheMasses said:


> Nice try. There is literally no evidence what so ever that indicates covid is naturally occurring. There is evidence that covid can be and has been created in a lab because it has already been recreated in a LAB. There is evidence that China and WHO have not been honest. There is evidence of China trying to blame other countries. There is evidence of China creating viruses to use as weapons. Burden of proof rest on CCP and they have not proven anything.


The burden of proof is on the one making the claim that the virus was artificially created. We have genetic evidence that the virus hopped species. Whether that happened at a fish market, in a lab, etc. is unknown for sure.



tabzer said:


> The jury is still out on that, but I will admit that I jumped the gun.  The instruction set of the mRNA effectively lies on behalf of the DNA.  Feedback loops resulting from such have the "potential" of influencing DNA.  I call it "potential" because I believe it does.


This isn't how mRNA vaccines work. They cannot alter your DNA, and there is no trace of the vaccine left in the body after enough time. You know what can sometimes slip its genetic information into your DNA? The virus that causes COVID-19.


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You know what can sometimes slip its genetic information into your DNA? The virus that causes COVID-19.



Via the same feedback loop I mentioned.


----------



## omgcat (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The jury is still out on that, but I will admit that I jumped the gun.  The instruction set of the mRNA effectively lies on behalf of the DNA.  Feedback loops resulting from such have the "potential" of influencing DNA.  I call it "potential" because I believe it does.




what DNA is changed? what cells?


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Via the same feedback loop I mentioned.


Are you trying to argue that what I've said isn't correct because I don't have any expertise in the area of virology? Because a.) That would be a logical fallacy , and b.) I earned my bachelor's degree in biology.

How the COVID-19 virus potentially injects its genetic information into human cells has nothing to do with the vaccine and how it works. They aren't comparable.


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

I'm arguing that you haven't properly acknowledged "feedback loop", and because you don't know what it means or how to address it, you are trying to shift the focus, like now.

Also, you promoted the virus affecting DNA (via feedback loop) and denied mRNA instruction doing it.  So...  I just think you are lying.


----------



## omgcat (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Are you trying to argue that what I've said isn't correct because I don't have any expertise in the area of virology? Because a.) That would be a logical fallacy , and b.) I earned my bachelor's degree in biology.
> 
> How the COVID-19 virus potentially injects its genetic information into human cells has nothing to do with the vaccine and how it works. They aren't comparable.



you're arguing with someone that either is not educated, or does not care about education. you can't logic someone out of a box they didn't logic themselves into.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

omgcat said:


> you're arguing with someone that either is not educated, or does not care about education. you can't logic someone out of a box they didn't logic themselves into.


I know. My responses are for the lurkers reading through the thread, not for tabzer.


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I know. My responses are for the lurkers reading through the thread, not for tabzer.


Then it would be good if you could address the point instead of shifting the discussion to "I think my credentials are good enough to fake it."


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Then it would be good if you could address the point instead of shifting the discussion to "I think my credentials are good enough to fake it."


I wish you could articulate any way in which I haven't addressed any of your points. I've explained your mistakes about the COVID-19 vaccines, I've explained that a person's qualifications have no bearing on whether or not a person's post is correct, and I've explained that I spent four years studying biology. What else do you want?


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

How does the DNA react when its body submits feedback that is unexpected, whether it's because of a mRNA instruction or a virus instruction?



Lacius said:


> I've explained that a person's qualifications have no bearing on whether or not a person's post is correct, and I've explained that I spent four years studying biology.



If your "credentials" are for a previous post of mine, then please quote what you are responding to.  The actual argument I am making didn't call for a resume, unless you think that can change the outcome.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> How does the DNA react when it's body submits feedback that is unexpected, whether it's because of a mRNA instruction or a virus instruction?


The presence of mRNA from a vaccine does nothing to alter one's DNA.


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The presence of mRNA from a vaccine does nothing to alter one's DNA.


Tobacco causes DNA to change but not mRNA, ok.  But you are just sidestepping anyway.


----------



## omgcat (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Tobacco causes DNA to change but not mRNA, ok.



please explain the difference between epi-genetic, genetic, and de novo mutations.


----------



## tabzer (May 29, 2021)

omgcat said:


> please explain the difference between epi-genetic, genetic, and de novo mutations.



I didn't mention them.  Are you trying to test how smart I am after you said,"what DNA is changed? what cells?"

If you could make the argument that the affect of Covid is genetic (potentially de novo) and the affect of mRNA is strictly epigenetic, then that would be deeper than what had been addressed so far.


----------



## plasturion (May 29, 2021)

mRNA is a data carier with instruction set right... so thanks to that instructions human cell produce spikes of virus for recognizing purpose, to detect virus capsule before it release harmful own RNA with instructions destructive to our health.  Is it so big difference between these two?  Both methods seems similar how organic cell produce something - whole virus or only it's spike.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

... From what I can read so far, the point made is that we have very little mRNA Evidence-Based Science to go on as all of our Scientists are still beginning this phase of its Real-World Applications.

Let's not forget, there is also a lot of Western arrogance based on the fallacy their Science is the most accurate.
We saw this on the United States' supposedly-unbiased approach to Face Masks in 2020 and how they waltzed and backtracked out of a position of where there was no actual Scientific proof that it does anything to obviously it has great benefits as a preventative measure.

Must be nice to always be right.

That said, injecting oneself with mRNA isn't the only way to alter a Human's Biology.

The Japanese have always known they have a unique ability to take nutrients from seaweed, which is vastly different to everyone else just eating it for taste. The West scoffed at the notion of other Human beings having unique abilities above their own, until they actually studied it.

So that grain of salt is always needed and, as a Professional in my Field, I can tell anyone Formal Education is only the start of Knowledge in one's Field.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Tobacco causes DNA to change but not mRNA, ok.  But you are just sidestepping anyway.


Now you're getting it.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> That said, injecting oneself with mRNA isn't the only way to alter a Human's Biology.


_Messenger _RNA does not interact with the human genome in any way.  The message it sends to your cells causes your body to build its own spike protein right near the site of injection, which is why some pain in the area is common after the second dose.

Additionally, the Johnson & Johnson vaccine does not use mRNA at all, it's a much more traditional type of vaccine that uses dead/dormant cold cells as a delivery mechanism.  So having an irrational fear of mRNA isn't even a good excuse for being anti-vaxx, you have other options.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> So having an irrational fear of mRNA isn't even a good excuse for being anti-vaxx, you have other options.



This I agree and am planning to take my Sinovac next month.
The AstraZeneca schedule is in a few days but, as I mentioned, not a gambling man.



Xzi said:


> _Messenger _RNA does not interact with the human genome in any way.



This is where we'll have to agree to disagree.
The logic is simple; the Science isn't all there yet and we're the ones creating the first actual Human test cases.

In any other field that isn't rushed by a Government Emergency Mandate, every respectable Scientist would advise to wait until more evidence is available. That isn't the case here and whilst I can understand the rationale, I can't the argument that it's just as Scientifically sound as under normal circumstances.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> In any other field that isn't rushed by a Government Emergency Mandate, every respectable Scientist would advise to wait until more evidence is available.


This is a common misconception, the EUA does nothing to speed up or rush clinical trials.  All it does is remove bureaucratic red tape.  Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J will all be applying for full approval with basically just the data they've already gathered, and I'd be very surprised if any of them are rejected.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> This I agree and am planning to take my Sinovac next month.
> The AstraZeneca schedule is in a few days but, as I mentioned, not a gambling man.
> 
> 
> ...


The science is absolutely in on the nature of mRNA vaccines and how they don't interact with anything in the nucleus. We've had mRNA vaccines in some form for decades.

The COVID-19 vaccines have been thoroughly tested. They are safe, they are effective, and they do not alter one's DNA. You are more likely to have your DNA altered if you aren't vaccinated.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I'd be very surprised if any of them are rejected.



I'd be repeating myself if I continue, but you should understand that Politics plays a greater role in the optics than you give it credit for. My quote of your Comment is to underline the question why that is.

I believe in Track Records for everything unless I take a Leap of Faith.
Science shouldn't require said Leap, but when it does then it should be put in its Disclaimer fairly, not in a pseudo-Scientific patronising attitude that gets walked back with subsequent News Interviews that prove otherwise.

There is a very long History of Western disinformation and some are quite recent.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

That's the Eastern mindset and mine.



Lacius said:


> The COVID-19 vaccines have been thoroughly tested.



Basically my Rationale is above and, at my age, I really hate being patronised by a Political disposition in Government that sees itself as always being correct, albeit proven wrong.

It's as though Doubling Down and not admitting wrong positions in the past is the way forward.
The Track Record is there, even in this Government Branch.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> I'd be repeating myself if I continue, but you should understand that Politics plays a greater role in the optics than you give it credit for. My quote of your Comment is to underline the question why that is.
> 
> I believe in Track Records for everything unless I take a Leap of Faith.
> Science shouldn't require said Leap, but when it does then it should be put in its Disclaimer fairly, not in a pseudo-Scientific patronising attitude that gets walked back with subsequent News Interviews that prove otherwise.
> ...


This should have nothing to do with politics. This is about science. If you have something against the COVID-19 vaccines, fine, but let's not pretend it's anything other than unscientific and irrational.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> This should have nothing to do with politics.



In a perfect World, it shouldn't.
This isn't it, though.



Lacius said:


> If you have something against the COVID-19 vaccines, fine



Seems you're speed-reading my Comments a little too much.

I'm against Scientists peddling mRNA as 100% safe when they don't have the Scientific legs to stand on, by their own Scientific Methods of Rigorous Testing and continuous Testing.

If they're fair about the risks rather than patronise the World about it, all the better for adults like myself to accept the risks.

But they're pandering to an American crowd that thinks their lives saved isn't reward enough to take Vaccines so they should be entitled to a Lottery as well.

This is why there is said Baby Talk.
Reality apparently is too much to handle.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> you should understand that Politics plays a greater role in the optics than you give it credit for


Right, and the person most responsible for politicizing biology and science during the pandemic quietly got his vaccine shots in January.  That should speak volumes about who's really getting the short end of the stick here.



tomasowa said:


> I believe in Track Records for everything unless I take a Leap of Faith.  Science shouldn't require said Leap


It doesn't.  Assuming you understand the lingo, you can review the results of the clinical trials yourself, just as a board of scientists and biologists had to before approving vaccines for use on the general public.  People can lie, but reproducible results of experiments conducted using the scientific method cannot.  No faith required.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> In a perfect World, it shouldn't.
> This isn't it, though.


It's your fault if you're making it a political issue.



tomasowa said:


> Seems you're speed-reading my Comments a little too much.
> 
> I'm against Scientists peddling mRNA as 100% safe when they don't have the Scientific legs to stand on, by their own Scientific Methods of Rigorous Testing and continuous Testing.
> 
> ...


The COVID-19 vaccines were very thoroughly tested, and that's not even including the "test" of having hundreds of millions of doses given so far in the United States. The scientists have also been abundantly clear about the potential side effects. I'm not sure what more you could want.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The COVID-19 vaccines were very thoroughly tested



Nobody knew about Blood Clots until they showed up; so much for the vast body of work put into Research.

These comments make a mockery of Scientists and the Scientific Method, to pander to justifying the speedy schedule and soothing the Western crybabies that won't get vaccinated, mRNA or not.



Xzi said:


> quietly got his vaccine shots in January



Living is apparently more enjoyable than death.

The Japanese found out about Brain Damage from COVID-19.
Long COVID-19 only became known after the fact.

To say we know everything is an asinine proposition, both of the disease and the Vaccine used to prevent it.


----------



## SG854 (May 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I agree with the sentiment that people should not be pushing others to take the vaccine.  Nobody has presented credentials in doing so.
> 
> That being said, I wish you would value your life more.  You seem to value others more than yourself, which is better than doing the contrary--but still not ideal.


I've done absolutely 0 research on the vaccines and on their effectiveness or side affects. Mostly because im lazy to read and research. I just got the vaccine. Without any thought. And without any care about the side effects if there was any.

Maybe I should value my life more. Its only on this vaccine thing where I have that attitude. Of me not caring. Probably because I put a little faith in the Doctors and Experts. So it's my excuse to be lazy and not resrarch. I'll let them handle that. And trust they know what they are doing.

Bad approach? Maybe. To not be informed. Bad to not inform myself. But it's what I did.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> Living is apparently more enjoyable than death.


So why continue to politicize the virus and vaccines then?  If it's good enough for dear leader, it should be good enough for all his underlings.



tomasowa said:


> To say we know everything is an asinine preposition, both of the disease and the Vaccine used to prevent it.


Nobody said we know everything about the virus.  Because of the clinical trials and all the data we've gathered from the general public, we do know that the vaccines are safe and very effective at preventing serious illness caused by the virus, however.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> Nobody knew about Blood Clots until they showed up; so much for the vast body of work put into Research.
> 
> These comments make a mockery of Scientists and the Scientific Method, to pander for justifying the speedy schedule and soothing the Western crybabies that won't get vaccinated, mRNA or not.


The odds of blood clots are about 1 in a million with the J&J vaccine. The blood clots didn't show up in the trials because they didn't include millions of people. In fact, scientists were clear before the trial data was released that, like with all trails, 1 in a million or 1 in 10 million odds occurrences were unlikely to pop up the in trials, and they were something to be on the lookout for. The J&J vaccine is still considered safe, despite the blood clot risk.

The mRNA vaccines do not have the blood clot risks that J&J vaccine has.

The fact remains that the COVID-19 vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



tomasowa said:


> Living is apparently more enjoyable than death.


Anybody who believes this for themselves, as well as for others, should get vaccinated ASAP if they can.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> So why continue to politicize the virus and vaccines then?



Unfortunately, it's a circular argument we can't escape.

The reason for the zealous votes of confidence is purely Political, and thus every time it gets repeated it is repeated as a Political Statement rather than Scientific fact.

Personally, I prefer a level-headed approach.
Explain the reality of the Scientific Research, how we are part of the experiment to find that COVID-19 cure and assure the Public that everything is being done as Scientifically as possible within the Emergency Time Frame, but there are risks.

That statement never happened, because the West feared they would go insane with Lockdown, blame the rise of Household Violence to the rise of time spent together instead of questioning why a Family that can't stand being together is even a Family, etc.

And here we are.



Lacius said:


> The blood clots didn't show up in the trials because they didn't include millions of people.



Exactly.
Hopefully you understand what that means about Data Collection and the fallacy of relying on Lab numbers.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> Exactly.
> Hopefully you understand what that means about Data Collection and the fallacy of relying on Lab numbers.


It's not a fallacy if the limitations of the experiments are acknowledged. The vaccines have been abundantly demonstrated to be safe and effective, before and after millions of people started getting vaccinated.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines have been abundantly demonstrated to be safe and effective





Lacius said:


> The blood clots didn't show up in the trials because they didn't include millions of people.



Maybe there's a different definition of Blood Clot you have that isn't lethal for these two to make sense.
For the rest of the World, unfortunately, they don't.

It's an example of the argument being given to the World, instead of just telling the truth.
I prefer if people don't patronise me, but you might prefer empty reassurances. Different strokes.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> Maybe there's a different definition of Blood Clot you have that isn't lethal for these two to make sense.
> For the rest of the World, unfortunately, they don't.



The blood clot risk is exceedingly rare, about 1 in a million.
Last I checked, there was only one instance in which the blood clot from the J&J vaccine was lethal.
Understanding and acknowledging the blood clot risk allows us to be on the lookout for potential blood clots, and we know how to treat them. This makes them a lot less lethal.
The blood clot risk is much higher with other medications than with the J&J vaccine. The odds of blood clots with oral contraceptives, for example, are about 1 in 3,000, and oral contraceptives are considered exceedingly safe.
Actually contracting COVID-19 increases the risks of blood clots (and comes with many other health risks unrelated to blood clots), so if your goal is to reduce the risk of blood clots, getting any COVID-19 vaccine is the way to do it.
COVID-19 comes with the potential for various health complications that are far more probable than 1 in a million. Without getting into the specific potential health complications and their odds, the risk of hospitalization is about 1 in 5, and the risk of death is about 1 in 100.
Getting vaccinated protects the people around you, not just yourself.
With or without J&J's blood clot risk, the vaccines are considered very safe and very effective. If you don't want the J&J vaccine, even though it's safe, get one of the other ones.

Edit: To put all of this in perspective, last I checked, only one American has died as a result of a vaccination (and the lethality of that complication is mitigated by knowing about it now), and nearly 600,000 Americans have died of COVID-19.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> The reason for the zealous votes of confidence is purely Political, and thus every time it gets repeated it is repeated as a Political Statement rather than Scientific fact.


You've got it completely twisted, there's more than enough data out there to back pro-vaccine arguments without mentioning anything that's inherently political.  Anti-vaxx arguments are the ones based entirely on emotional response, political distrust, and general misinformation.  That crowd is never going to provide you with any valid scientific data, best you'll get from them are memes about Bill Gates.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

... I am getting another Vaccine, Sinovac, and I'm starting to think you went into this not actually reading my Comments and thinking I'm against Vaccines.



Lacius said:


> The blood clot risk is exceedingly rare, about 1 in a million.



Although I understand you say this as a reassurance, being an Asian and growing up raised by my Family, this reads differently.

The proposition there is that 1 person will have to die for every 999,999 saved.
Even though we believe in the Greater Good, this number should be conveyed with the solemnity it deserves.

That is also why these Press releases get to the older Asians I know.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> ... I am getting another Vaccine, Sinovac, and I'm starting to think you went into this not actually reading my Comments and thinking I'm against Vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're making some mistakes. 1 in a million blood clot risk is not a 1 in a million death risk. You're also making the mistake of ignoring all of the information in my previous post about how not being vaccinated and contracting COVID-19 comes with far worse and far more probable risks.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> You've got it completely twisted



I would assume you have an open mindset, so why would you think the Body of Thought between the two can be so clearly separated.



Lacius said:


> You're making some mistakes.



I'm going by your Comment, not by the actual numbers.
I've posted the actual numbers for AstraZeneca and they're at 1:100,000 which I assumed you've read.

If you haven't, maybe you should.
Your 1:1,000,000 seems a little luxurious in that context which is why I assumed you were making a hypothetical statement.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> I would assume you have an open mindset, so why would you think the Body of Thought between the two can be so clearly separated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're not paying attention. The mistake you made was conflating "blood clot" with "automatic death."


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> I would assume you have an open mindset, so why would you think the Body of Thought between the two can be so clearly separated.


I don't know what to tell you, the dividing lines here are very clear.  If the anti-vaxx crowd wants to prove that vaccines are unsafe and/or damaging in some way, there's a scientific means for doing that.  But there's also a very good reason they'll probably never pursue that route: their beliefs are based entirely on ego, and proving themselves wrong would shatter that.  Same principle behind people who believe in the flat Earth theory.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You're not paying attention.



You're not paying attention.
I'm pointing out that glossing over facts as if they're inconsequential is the problem.

You seem to try arguing details instead of understanding what the point is.
Unfortunately, this won't get anywhere to the issue as those are moving goalposts.

Adults don't need to be patronised by the Government.


----------



## omgcat (May 29, 2021)

The only thing that tickles my brain is that people will trust sinovac even though it's made by Chinese scientists. I thought we weren't trusting them because the CCP lies. Why wouldn't the CCP lie about sinovac's efficacy? Are we trusting china now or not?


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I don't know what to tell you



I don't know what to tell you either.
I'm not part of the Anti Vaccination Crowd.

I'm part of the Don't Patronise Me with Empty Words Crowd.
Yet here we are, with you thinking I'm against Science, however ridiculous that is.

But it is funny, so I am enjoying the exchange.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> I don't know what to tell you either.
> I'm not part of the Anti Vaccination Crowd.
> 
> I'm part of the Don't Patronise Me with Empty Words Crowd.
> Yet here we are, with you thinking I'm against Science, however ridiculous that is.


I don't believe I ever referred to you personally as an anti-vaxxer during this discussion, I referred to them as their own group.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> You're not paying attention.
> I'm pointing out that glossing over facts as if they're inconsequential is the problem.
> 
> You seem to try arguing details instead of understanding what the point is.
> ...


I haven't glossed over anything as if it's inconsequential. I'm acknowledging the odds of vaccine complications relative to the odds of COVID-19 complications. It is a mistake to say the 1 in a million chance for blood clots with the J&J vaccine makes the vaccine unsafe. By any objective metric I can think of, the J&J vaccine is still extremely safe, and it's much safer than things out there that are common place and also safe (oral contraceptives, etc.). The vaccines are FAR safer than risking contracting COVID-19.

The data from before the vaccines were made available to the public was that the vaccines were safe and effective. Today, after hundreds of millions of doses, that continues to be the true. The newly discovered blood clot risk in one vaccine doesn't change that, and the risk of a 1 in a million side-effect was acknowledged long ago.



tomasowa said:


> I'm not part of the Anti Vaccination Crowd.


If you're arguing anything other than the COVID-19 vaccines being safe and effective, and if you are doing anything other than advocating for their widespread use, then yes, you are part of the anti-vaccination crowd. I am sorry if that is inconvenient for you.



tomasowa said:


> with you thinking I'm against Science


You've specifically lambasted science and scientific studies. You are against science.



Xzi said:


> I don't believe I ever referred to you personally as an anti-vaxxer during this discussion, I referred to them as their own group.


I will. He's an anti-vaxxer.


----------



## Deleted User (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you're arguing anything other than the COVID-19 vaccines being safe and effective, and if you are doing anything other than advocating for their widespread use, then yes, you are part of the anti-vaccination crowd. I am sorry if that is inconvenient for you.



I would actually pay to see you work for Family Planning; there would never be a dull day.

That said, there isn't much more I can say to clarify without repeating myself.


----------



## Xzi (May 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I will. He's an anti-vaxxer.


IIRC he said he's gotten a vaccine or plans to get one, and I'm willing to take his word on that.  He does appear to have a number of anti-vaxxer talking points stuck in his head though, so I assume he spends a fair amount of time hanging out with that crowd either IRL or online.


----------



## Lacius (May 29, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> I would actually pay to see you work for Family Planning


If you, or someone else, could explain what this means, that would be appreciated.


----------



## Deleted User (May 30, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you, or someone else, could explain what this means, that would be appreciated.



Contraceptions, as needed as they are, aren't fully safe and effective.
It would be fun to watch you use your argument with them, though I doubt it's as fun for them.


----------



## Lacius (May 30, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> Contraceptions, as needed as they are, aren't fully safe and effective.
> It would be fun to watch you use your argument with them, though I doubt it's as fun for them.


Contraceptives are generally safe and effective. The fact that they are not fully safe and are not fully effective is something we should acknowledge, but it doesn't change the aforementioned fact.

Risks can also be mitigated, and efficacy can be increased.


----------



## Deleted User (May 30, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Contraceptives are generally safe and effective. The fact that they are not fully safe and are not fully effective is something we should acknowledge, but it doesn't change the aforementioned fact.
> 
> Risks can also be mitigated, and efficacy can be increased.



Exactly. 
Now how to make that mental leap to COVID-19 is up to you, as none of my points disagreed with your statement.


----------



## Xzi (May 30, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Risks can also be mitigated, and efficacy can be increased.


Yeah if she's real ugly, you gotta double-wrap your junk.  

Let's pretend that was a metaphor for getting the two-shot vaccine, and not just me being extremely immature.


----------



## Lacius (May 30, 2021)

tomasowa said:


> Exactly.
> Now how to make that mental leap to COVID-19 is up to you, as none of my points disagreed with your statement.


*COVID-19 vaccines* are generally safe and effective. The fact that they are not fully safe and are not fully effective is something we should acknowledge, but it doesn't change the aforementioned fact.

Risks can also be mitigated, and efficacy can be increased.

Yes, it works if we replace "contraceptives" with "COVID-19 vaccines."


----------



## Taleweaver (May 30, 2021)

Just heard on the news that about half of Belgian adults are now (halfway, I presume) vaccinated. This is Belgium, so it's taken with a pinch of salt (1),but we're getting there.

Girlfriend as her second shot last Friday. And most of people I know of the older generation had at least their first shot.
On zoom we had a bit of a pickle between colleagues because one got his invitation but he wasn't planning on going.
I haven't gotten my invitation yet, but could get it any week or even any day now.

(1): it's not straight upcorruption but... Positively biased bureaucracy is probably the best description. A good example is how there are a few cities /villages in Flanders with a 65+ age vaccination rate of e.g. 104%.
This number is possible because instances compare the registered residents (meaning : everyone with a 'rijksregisternummer'... Basically the number on your passport) with the given vaccinations. As such, foreigners and sans-papiers who get a shot are counted in the latter but not the former.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 3, 2021)

*Free beer, other new incentives for Biden’s ‘vaccine sprint’*

"Biden’s plan will continue to use public and private-sector partnerships, mirroring the 'whole of government' effort he deployed to make vaccines more widely available after he took office. The president said he was 'pulling out all the stops' to drive up the vaccination rate.

Among those efforts is a promotional giveaway announced Wednesday by Anheuser-Busch, saying it will 'buy Americans 21+ a round of beer' once Biden’s 70% goal is met."

https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...itics-health-8168ae1c68ca955b620082d862c911ad


----------



## tabzer (Jun 3, 2021)

this buds for you.

Not that anybody deserves such a thing.


----------



## Deleted User (Jun 5, 2021)

I've Commented enough here to warrant a follow-up report.

Just finished getting my first AstraZeneca shot two hours ago, next one will be late August.
As much as I question the AstraZeneca Vaccine, Obligations for the Greater Good outweigh Rights any day, for someone raised like myself, at least.

That said, there are quite a few differences in the Vaccination procedure between Sinovac and Astrazeneca.

In the latter that I underwent, they will take each group and give them a number of questions of past Medical History to verify qualification for the Vaccine. Afterwards, they will go in length about all the side-effects, of which there are 6 printed out and in the Explanation Template, the worst being Blood Clots.

The basic explanation for AstraZeneca is to treat this as one would the usual Child Vaccine, i.e. ingest Paracetamol once at home. I think that is the best explanation and analogy I've heard and I wished the Western Mainstream Media would address things in such a simple but direct way.

For all the other Mild Symptoms, they suggest drinking normal painkillers or antacid.
For all Heavy Symptoms, immediately go to the nearest Clinic or Hospital.

Additionally, I had to sign a Consent Form for AstraZeneca, which wasn't there for Sinovac.

The process itself was pretty harmless and, two hours or so in, I've taken my Paracetamol and am not feeling any of the symptoms just yet.
They told us to avoid strenuous activity for the next day, and so I will.


----------



## The Catboy (Jun 12, 2021)

I got my second covid shot yesterday and spent the entire night dealing with horrible fevers but that didn't last long and I am feeling better today. I am perfectly fine dealing with a few hours of mild suffering over a few weeks of possibly dying.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Jun 19, 2021)

I've decided on not getting one. I 100% do not trust it, and I know something is going on with it.


----------



## AsPika2219 (Jun 21, 2021)

Today was my turn to get vaccine injections!


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I've decided on not getting one. I 100% do not trust it, and I know something is going on with it.


All of the evidence shows the vaccine is safe and effective. Everyone who can medically get it should get it. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of those around you that you get it. We have a moral imperative to get vaccinated because it doesn't just affect us.


----------



## Iamapirate (Jun 21, 2021)

Lacius said:


> All of the evidence shows the vaccine is safe and effective. Everyone who can medically get it should get it. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of those around you that you get it. We have a moral imperative to get vaccinated because it doesn't just affect us.


No thanks!


----------



## AsPika2219 (Jun 21, 2021)

*UPDATE!!!*

I already finished 1st vaccine injection! I am using... *SINOVAC*!  Wait 2 weeks for second vaccine!


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2021)

Iamapirate said:


> No thanks!


Despite the vaccine being in your best interest, and in the best interest of those who have to interact with you, it's your choice whether or not you want to be vaccinated. However, let's not pretend that one's refusal to get vaccinated is anything other than reckless and anti-scientific.


----------



## plasturion (Jun 21, 2021)

I don't know why people call this toxic genotheraphy in experimental phase as a vaccine. It has nothing common. It's just change your cell function to overproduce specific proteins, and you can't be sure if it does it do anything else, that's quite risky. Standard vaccine should deliver proteins, and do not harm a cells.


----------



## Lacius (Jun 21, 2021)

plasturion said:


> I don't know why people call this toxic genotheraphy in experimental phase as a vaccine. It has nothing common. It's just change your cell function to overproduce specific proteins, and you can't be sure if it does it do anything else, that's quite risky. Standard vaccine should deliver proteins, and do not harm a cells.


The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. Everything that's in the vaccine is flushed out of your system not too longer after you get your last dose. Nothing from the vaccine stays in your body for too long.


----------



## grcd (Jun 21, 2021)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Here's the rundown.
> 
> If you take the vaccine, you'll still have to wear a mask.
> The vaccine has a 95% success rate, while COVID has a 99% survival rate.
> ...



That does not even make statistical sense. Covid-19 has a variable survival rate, which depends on your age, BMI, lung conditions among other things. Out of the known 179,419,490 global cases of Covid-19, there have been 3,885,376 known deaths. This gives a mortality rate of 2.165% -- although you are probably right, since most light Covid-19 cases go unidentified. The real mortality rate is probably below 1% -- as a general average. In practice however, as you age above 60 the chances of dying from Covid-19 rise exponentially. In the United States, 80% of those who died of Covid-19 were over the age of 65. In some cases, for people over the age of 75, the mortality rate could exceed 10%.

The above discussion does not cover long-Covid -- the condition where getting Covid-19 leaves some people with debilitating effects including long-term fatigue. This condition does seem to affect mostly younger people, so mortality rate alone does not cover everything we need to be aware of. Mortality rate alone does not, also, cover the question of whether healthy or at low-risk young people and adults can pass the virus on to older, more at risk, people. You may think you are safe, but are your parents safe if they are close to 60? Are your grandparents safe? Are you happy knowingly becoming a vector that increases their risk?

The vaccine's "95% success rate" is again a rough average, and changes from vaccine to vaccine. What it means in practice is that the vaccine has a very high chance of protecting you, if not necessarily from infection then from illness -- and if not from illness then from severe illness. Crucially, it greatly reduces the incidence of long-Covid, as well as the severity of illness on older and younger people alike.

As for your reported side-effects. For facial paralysis, there is no known link or proof of increased Bell's palsy in those who have been vaccinated. This story stems from Israel, where 13 vaccinated people were reported to have got Bell's palsy. Israel, crucially, vaccinated nearly two thirds of its entire population. Bell's palsy and facial paralysis can occur from a number of causes and factors. I am quite certain the many vaccinated people in Israel also got into car accidents; they became victims of murder; some got cancer, and so forth. This does not mean that the vaccine causes car accidents. On the contrary, in a study conducted, it was found that the instances of Ball's palsy are in fact lower amongst the vaccinated population versus the unvaccinated. In scientific terms, no correlation has been proven.

Your claim of infertility is completely lacking any basis as well. Vaccinations barely begun 9 months ago -- so we simply don't have any data that could verify or disprove your claim either way. And your claim regarding headaches is simply laughable: a headache is nothing.

As someone who was vaccinated, I can confirm that I did have a very painful and heavy arm on my first dose, and a short-lived but relatively strong fever (plus a painful arm, again) for my second dose. The fever got as high as 38C, and yes it was accompanied by headache. The symptoms did not last more than 12 hours in total.

One likely and indeed scientifically proven side-effect regards thrombosis (thrombocytopenia) which seems to affect those vaccinated within some hours and up to 3 weeks from vaccination. While most of these cases have not been lethal, some have - and it remains the greatest questionmark over the safety of the vaccine. Again, not all vaccines report the same incidence of this; with the AstraZeneca vaccine being the most likely to cause the problem. Still, and to give some context to this, we must understand the thrombosis is one of the leading causes of death worldwide - even outside the context of Covid vaccination. 1 in 4 people will probably die from causes related to blood clotting, and this can be caused by a number of factors (from being overweight to random chance, to getting cancer). The current contraceptive pills, for example, can cause 1 in 3000 (0.0333%) women to develop a blood clot. Yet, there is no widespread panic or paranoia regarding the use of these pills. The rate of incidence for the Covid vaccine, specifically AZ, seems to be 100 per 25 million (0.0004%) with approximately 20% of these cases being fatal. Most of the others will recover fully, but a small minority may develop long-term problems. Short-term and long-term problems can include slurred speech, which I think is where you got your information regarding Ball's palsy. Finally, and to put this to bed, blood clots are actually also caused by Covid-19 itself,   (see
"Severe thrombocytopaenia secondary to COVID-19" by Patel, Stanton, Gkikas and Trantafyllopoulou) and current evidence suggests that one is 10 times as likely to have this problem as compared to the vaccinated population.

I actually know someone who got a blood clot. He is 45 years old, and got the AZ vaccine. He had a strong clotting incident on his left leg, and he nearly lost the leg. He had to stay 3 weeks in the hospital. He is now better and recovering, but righfully scared and skeptical of the vaccine. There are no easy black or white answers when it comes to scientific questions. Only gradations of confidence and knowledge. No one will accuse you of being a skeptic.

You are right, also, that you cannot sue anyone if the vaccine ruins your life. Guess what: You also cannot sue anyone if Covid-19 ruins your life, or leads to the death of your loved ones. If by any chance you are unlucky enough to pass it on to someone who dies, you can't undo this damage either.

Today, I lost my uncle to Covid-19. He was "old", yes. He was 71 years old. But he was not fat, he was fit and thin. He was still working every day as a metallurgist, doing a very difficult profession. He had been vaccinated with the first dose 5 weeks ago, but the first dose does not give you much more than 50-60% protection. He presented the symptoms and felt OK enough, that was about a month ago. At first we thought he would survive it fine. On the 6th day without symptoms easing, he began having trouble breathing. So we took him as a precaution to the hospital. The first couple of nights he seemed fine. He was still talking, and even while doctors were becoming concerned with his lungs, he was making plans to come back. He was even calling clients to re-arrange deliveries. Then he deteriorated very fast, and eventually had to be assisted with his breathing. Yesterday night he slept in his hospital bed for the last time, and had a cardiac arrest. One day he was here, the next he was gone. My conscience is clear that -- having been vaccinated -- it is very unlikely that I passed the virus to him. But someone did.

Cardiac arrest is one of the leading causes of death following Covid-19 diagnosis. Recent studies have shown that you are 3.4 times more likely to die from cardiac arrest within 30 days of being diagnosed with Covid-19.

That's why we cannot play around with serious things. Science is not perfect. Science is fallible. But if we must make a decision, we must do so with a sound scientific basis; and a sound knowledge and awareness of the underlying facts. Decision-making from ignorance is neither helpful, nor wise... or sane.


----------



## Windaga (Jun 21, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I got my second covid shot yesterday and spent the entire night dealing with horrible fevers but that didn't last long and I am feeling better today. I am perfectly fine dealing with a few hours of mild suffering over a few weeks of possibly dying.



Which one did you get? My parents got the Moderna shot and they both got completely different reactions - one had a mild fever for a few hours and was fine after, and the other just got a bit of soreness. I got Pfizer - I was sore for a few days after my first shot, but I didn't have any reaction to the second one.


----------



## The Catboy (Jun 21, 2021)

Windaga said:


> Which one did you get? My parents got the Moderna shot and they both got completely different reactions - one had a mild fever for a few hours and was fine after, and the other just got a bit of soreness. I got Pfizer - I was sore for a few days after my first shot, but I didn't have any reaction to the second one.


I got Moderna, I was fine after a few hours


----------



## JJ1013 (Jun 27, 2021)

Take any SARS-CoV-2 vaccine that isn't the Russian, Chinese or Cuban one, preferably the double-dose vaccines.

And finally, about the side effects -- fucking git gud.

You guys are lucky you're getting decent vaccines -- us Venezuelans are being used as* test subjects* for the Cuban one. Goodness knows what they have done, since the USA and Great Britain definitely know better than those idiots at Cuba.


----------



## Seliph (Jun 27, 2021)

Can you imagine if people acted like this when the Polio vaccine came out lol. Bunch of babies


----------



## JJ1013 (Jun 27, 2021)

Seliph said:


> Can you imagine if people acted like this when the Polio vaccine came out lol. Bunch of babies



I know, right? What's so bad about a fever after the vaccine? And why do people believe that the vaccine magnetize people? Because the supposed magnetized people just take a spoon and rub them against their neck while still holding it with their hands!


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Jun 30, 2021)

wtf the vaccine gave me superpowers

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

not even cool ones, i can just see 0.5 sec into the future


----------



## Armadillo (Jul 5, 2021)

Had my second pfizer dose today. Tried moving a spoon and couldn't do it . No magnet powers for me.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> All of the evidence shows the vaccine is safe and effective. Everyone who can medically get it should get it. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of those around you that you get it. We have a moral imperative to get vaccinated because it doesn't just affect us.




Here's Dr Lacius giving you medical advice.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Here's Dr Lacius giving you medical advice.



I'm not sure why you came in here to quote a post I made over two weeks ago only to post a snarky comment devoid of any substance. One could argue it's a form of flamebaiting, and I recommend you ask yourself "Is this helpful?" before making posts in the future.
I am not a doctor, and I never claimed to be a doctor. I do have a degree in biology, however.
Regardless of my credentials, everything in my previous post is verifiably true. The vaccines are safe and effective, and regardless of whether a person cares more about themselves or the other people around them, it is in a person's best interest to get vaccinated. Considering the virus is infectious, there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I do have a degree in biology,



1.  There's substance.  Proof is in your grasping of pearls.  Sorry I was late.  Didn't get a notification of posts until now.
2.  Not a valid credential. 
3.  Nope.  You can't verify it's 100% safe.
3b.  You aren't a doctor.  It's not your business to be giving advice to people they should be getting a vaccine.  Your moral imperative is to stfu and stop overstepping your bounds because you are proud of your biology degree (but for some reason not a doctorate or a license.).


----------



## plasma (Jul 5, 2021)

I got my vaccine already and I am glad I did. People who are scared of it is fine, but to say there is more to it and its a government conspiricy to either control the masses or use it as population control need to get some fresh air. 

I much prefer keeping myself and others around me safe, I know people who were perfectly healthy that got covid and died. Covid is real, it's that simple.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> 1.  There's substance.  Proof is in your grasping of pearls.  Sorry I was late.  Didn't get a notification of posts until now.
> 2.  Not a valid credential.
> 3.  Nope.  You can't verify it's 100% safe.
> 3b.  You aren't a doctor.  It's not your business to be giving advice to people they should be getting a vaccine.  Your moral imperative is to stfu and stop overstepping your bounds because you are proud of your biology degree (but for some reason not a doctorate or a license.).


The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. Nobody is claiming that means it's "100% safe."
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html

If a person can medically get the vaccine, that person should definitely do so, and that person has a moral imperative to do so. If there are concerns about whether or not a person can medically get the vaccine, that person should of course consult their doctor.


----------



## plasma (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> 1.  There's substance.  Proof is in your grasping of pearls.  Sorry I was late.  Didn't get a notification of posts until now.
> 2.  Not a valid credential.
> 3.  Nope.  You can't verify it's 100% safe.
> 3b.  You aren't a doctor.  It's not your business to be giving advice to people they should be getting a vaccine.  *Your moral imperative is to stfu and stop overstepping your bounds because you are proud of your biology degree* (but for some reason not a doctorate or a license.).



Who hurt you? Lacius is giving correct information and you say something childish like this.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



Except, no.  Parroting the CDC as your own personal recommendation doesn't make you unaccountable for what you say, which requires a license.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Except, no.  Parroting the CDC as your own personal recommendation doesn't make you unaccountable for what you say, which requires a license.


It's funny to be that you want to talk about my credentials instead of the facts, which suggests to me that you're not having this conversation in good faith.

The CDC recommendations are based on scientific evidence and facts, and the recommendations are being made by people with the credentials you're looking for, so my credentials are irrelevant. I'm not sure what your goal is here, but I don't think you're achieving it.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's funny to be that you want to talk about my credentials instead of the facts, which suggests to me that you're not having this conversation in good faith.



It's not funny at all.  You are pressuring people to get the vaccine and you aren't a doctor.  

The CDC represents ONE entity.  Have you heard of a second opinion?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's not funny at all.


I meant it was "strange" funny, not "haha" funny, but I guess it was both.



tabzer said:


> You are pressuring people to get the vaccine and you aren't a doctor.


You seem to be suggesting that anyone without the credentials you're looking for cannot or should not acknowledge the facts regarding COVID-19 vaccination, but that would presumably exclude you from the conversation as well.

It does not take a doctor to acknowledge the facts about the COVID-19 vaccine. It is a fact that the vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe, it is a fact that the vaccines have been demonstrated to be effective, and it is a fact that every reputable medical organization/agency says everyone who can be vaccinated should get vaccinated as soon as possible. If you disagree with these things, please provide evidence. Until you do that, you're merely engaging in a fallacious argument by focusing on my credentials. I could be a high school dropout, and it would not change the validity of what I'm posting.



tabzer said:


> The CDC represents ONE entity.  Have you heard of a second opinion?


Virtually every medical organization and agency agrees the vaccines are safe and effective, and they recommend anyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated as soon as possible.


----------



## zxr750j (Jul 5, 2021)

I'm glad people do get vaccins, got my second today!
Thanks to the people who do get vaccinated the restrictions are going to be lifted around here, despite of people who don't..


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You seem to be suggesting that anyone without the credentials you're looking for cannot or should not acknowledge the facts regarding COVID-19 vaccination, but that would presumably exclude you from the conversation as well.



I'm not telling anybody to get the vaccine or not to get the vaccine.   That's the difference between me and you.  I know I am not a doctor.  You are pretending to be one.



Lacius said:


> Virtually every medical organization and agency agrees the vaccines are safe and effective, and they recommend anyone who can get vaccinated to get vaccinated as soon as possible.



Except that there are doctors (ie agencies) that remain skeptical of it, so that's false.  There is also the fact that the list of side-effects are being revised in real time, which means it's not settled.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'm not telling anybody to get the vaccine or not to get the vaccine.   That's the difference between me and you.  I know I am not a doctor.  You are pretending to be one.


I've already said that I am not a doctor, but it doesn't take a doctor to acknowledge the medical advice from the overwhelming majority of doctors that is based on the scientific evidence. The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and it is recommended that people get vaccinated as soon as possible. These are facts.



tabzer said:


> Except that there are doctors (ie agencies) that remain skeptical of it, so that's false.  There is also the fact that the list of side-effects are being revised in real time, which means it's not settled.



Individual doctors are not the same thing as agencies.
Please provide an example of a reputable organization that does not recommend people getting vaccinated as soon as possible.
The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe an effective.
Aside from one very rare side effect with the J&J vaccine, the side effects have been relatively consistent. What we know now about the J&J vaccine doesn't change the fact that it has also been demonstrated to be safe and effective.


----------



## emigre (Jul 5, 2021)

In happier news, I have my second vax on the 31st. Hopefully this time, the side effects won't fuck me up again.


----------



## DKB (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You are pretending to be one.



He said like 10 times he's not a doctor.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I've already said that I am not a doctor, but it doesn't take a doctor to acknowledge the medical advice from the overwhelming majority of doctors that is based on the scientific evidence.



Acknowledging what you recognize as "popular medical advice" isn't the same as giving medical advice, which is the line you have crossed.  Anyone who experiences adverse reactions to the vaccine could subpoena gbatemp and press charges against you, if that is in anyone's prerogative.   In essence, you are gambling.




Lacius said:


> Individual doctors are not the same thing as agencies.
> Please provide an example of a reputable organization that does not recommend people getting vaccinated as soon as possible.
> The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe an effective.
> Aside from one very rare side effect with the J&J vaccine, the side effects have been relatively consistent. What we know now about the J&J vaccine doesn't change the fact that it has also been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



1.  Individual doctors who run their own practice is the definition of agency.
2.  They exist, just look for them.  And then you are free to cancel them as you see fit.
3.  As fine print, that might be legally permissible, but that is only because all of the claims of adverse effects are dismissed as being inconclusive.
4.  Heart inflammation is the new hot topic, haven't you heard?


----------



## leon315 (Jul 5, 2021)

emigre said:


> In happier news, I have my second vax on the 31st. Hopefully this time, the side effects won't fuck me up again.


i see u have UK flag under avatar, then u must getting Astrazeneca! The UK vaccine is banned in Italy for people under 60yo when a 18yo girl died after receiving Astrazeneca, Glad u survived the improbable blood cloth from Astrazeneca!


----------



## plasma (Jul 5, 2021)

leon315 said:


> i see u have UK flag under avatar, then u must getting Astrazeneca! The UK vaccine is banned in Italy for people under 60yo when a 18yo girl died after receiving Astrazeneca, Glad u survived the improbable blood cloth from Astrazeneca!


I had the Pfizer one and I am in the UK. We offer both.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Acknowledging what you recognize as "popular medical advice" isn't the same as giving medical advice, which is the line you have crossed.  Anyone who experiences adverse reactions to the vaccine could subpoena gbatemp and press charges against you, if that is in anyone's prerogative.   In essence, you are gambling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and anyone who can get one should get one as soon as possible. This is what every reputable medical group says, and it's based on facts and evidence. I don't require a medical degree to acknowledge this, and I cannot be sued (lol) for acknowledging this. 

If you want to argue the vaccines are not safe or effective, or if you want to argue people should not get vaccinated, feel free to do so, but you're going to have to provide evidence.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> This is what every reputable medical group says, and it's based on facts and evidence.



Wrong.



Lacius said:


> I don't require a medical degree to acknowledge this, and I cannot be sued (lol) for acknowledging this.



That is effectively different from saying "you should get the vaccine".  We both know this.  Hahah.

The way you use "safe" is subjective, not conclusive.  Due to the fact that recent changes in its side-effects list have happened, it is assertively inconclusive--and not safe due to the already established side effects.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Wrong.


Provide evidence for this.



tabzer said:


> That is effectively different from saying "you should get the vaccine".  We both know this.  Hahah.


Every reputable medical group also says everyone should get vaccinated if they can.


----------



## Skelletonike (Jul 5, 2021)

Wtf, so many people that don't vaccine. o.O"

Damn. I bet we have flat earthers too.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The way you use "safe" is subjective, not conclusive.  Due to the fact that recent changes in its side-effects list have happened, it is assertively inconclusive--and not safe due to the already established side effects.


Even with what we know now, the vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Provide evidence for this.



You made the original claim.    It's not by default that we should assume that injecting foreign substances are safe.



Lacius said:


> Every reputable medical group also says everyone should get vaccinated if they can.



You can't account for every reputable medical group, so that's just a a lie.


----------



## plasma (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you dont want to get the vaccine then thats fine, but at this point I feel youre arguing for the sake of arguing.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

plasma said:


> If you dont want to get the vaccine then thats fine, but at this point I feel youre arguing for the sake of arguing.



Doctors can give medical advice.  Lacius should not.


----------



## plasma (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Doctors can give medical advice.  Lacius should not.


They can do as they please, who are you to sit there and tell them what they can and can't do. I advocate for the vaccine all the time, because it is the right thing to do. End of the day, its peoples *choices* that will determine if they get it or not, not someone saying 'i would suggest you get the vaccine to protect yourself'.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

plasma said:


> 'i would suggest you get the vaccine to protect yourself'.



You and I both know that isn't what Lacius has said.  I am in the position to point out the fault, but I am in no position to prevent him from doing so.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

Skelletonike said:


> Wtf, so many people that don't vaccine. o.O"
> 
> Damn. I bet we have flat earthers too.


There is a known overlap between flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers. They are both anti-scientific, anti-skeptic, illogical, and conspiratorial. There's also a lot of overlap between these things and Q-anon.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



tabzer said:


> You made the original claim.    It's not by default that we should assume that injecting foreign substances are safe.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't account for every reputable medical group, so that's just a a lie.


I've provided evidence that meets my burden of proof. You have not.


----------



## Skelletonike (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There is a known overlap between flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers. They are both anti-scientific, anti-skeptic, illogical, and conspiratorial. There's also a lot of overlap between these things and Q-anon.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



No idea what Q-anon is, first read about it earlier today.

Anyway, both flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers end up being just plain sad.


----------



## plasma (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You and I both know that isn't what Lacius has said.  I am in the position to point out the fault, but I am in no position to prevent him from doing so.


Then why are you so vexed over it? I don't see a fault with what Lacius has said, its okay to be skeptical with the evidence we have but people forget this is a very new mutation of the virus. We are learning as we move. I would rather trust the scientists who spend 99% of their time dedicated to saving millions of lives if I am to be honest.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Doctors can give medical advice.  Lacius should not.


It doesn't take a medical degree to acknowledge facts about the vaccine.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I've provided evidence that meets my burden of proof. You have not.



Nope.  I don't need to prove that the future exists.  You need to provide evidence that the possible outcomes are concrete and unwavering.  I already provided evidence that they are not.



Lacius said:


> It doesn't take a medical degree to acknowledge facts about the vaccine.



It requires a medical license to give recommendation about taking the vaccine.  Trying to compel people to take the vaccine is likely worse--from a legal perspective.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



plasma said:


> Then why are you so vexed over it? I don't see a fault with what Lacius has said, its okay to be skeptical with the evidence we have but people forget this is a very new mutation of the virus. We are learning as we move. I would rather trust the scientists who spend 99% of their time dedicated to saving millions of lives if I am to be honest.



You are free to trust anybody that you want.  It is true that we are experimenting along the way.  You are free to make choices.  Lacius is free to fraudulently practice medicine.  Each has their respective risks.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Nope.  I don't need to prove that the future exists.  You need to provide evidence that the possible outcomes are concrete and unwavering.  I already provided evidence that they are not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I provided evidence from the CDC that the vaccine is safe, effective, and recommended. If you are going to argue any of these things aren't true, you must provide evidence for it. Once again, you've failed to understand how the burden of proof works.

It does not require a medical license to acknowledge these facts about the vaccine. It's telling that you would rather talk about medical licenses vs. the actual facts about the vaccine.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I provided evidence from the CDC that the vaccine is safe, effective, and recommended. If you are going to argue any of these things aren't true, you must provide evidence for it. Once again, you've failed to understand how the burden of proof works.
> 
> It does not require a medical license to acknowledge these facts about the vaccine. It's telling that you would rather talk about medical licenses vs. the actual facts about the vaccine.



You've made, yet another, absolute claim.  Once again, you've failed to understand how the burden of proof works.

You are providing a medical opinion and prescribing it to everyone without their permission.  Good luck with that.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You've made, yet another, absolute claim.  Once again, you've failed to understand how the burden of proof works.
> 
> You are providing a medical opinion and prescribing it to everyone without their permission.  Good luck with that.


I haven't made any claims that haven't been backed up by the CDC and the rest of the medical community.

Please be sure to tag me if/when you decide to make a claim and support it with evidence.


----------



## Valwinz (Jul 5, 2021)

please don't take medical advice from lacius


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> please don't take medical advice from lacius


Please follow the recommendations of the CDC and the rest of the medical community and get vaccinated.


----------



## emigre (Jul 5, 2021)

leon315 said:


> i see u have UK flag under avatar, then u must getting Astrazeneca! The UK vaccine is banned in Italy for people under 60yo when a 18yo girl died after receiving Astrazeneca, Glad u survived the improbable blood cloth from Astrazeneca!



In Blightly, under 40s have a choice from AZ. I got Pfizer in the end,


----------



## Xen0 (Jul 5, 2021)

Well I was about to get BioNTech when suddenly news came out that young males did get heart problems after that. I guess I´ll wait until it´s fully exermined and we really know what it does with the body. (no flat earthler here, I´m a lab assistant)


----------



## Valwinz (Jul 5, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> Well I was about to get BioNTech when suddenly news came out that young males did get heart problems after that. I guess I´ll wait until it´s fully exermined and we really know what it does with the body. (no flat earthler here, I´m a lab assistant)


il get it in 5 years


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> il get it in 5 years


It is highly recommended that you get vaccinated as soon as possible if you are medically able to do so. If you have concerns about specific side-effects with specific vaccines, even though they're all relatively safe, get a different one.


----------



## kevin corms (Jul 5, 2021)

I cant blame some people from being hesitant, government and big pharma have abused our trust so much in the past and even today. Even democrats were casting doubt on the vaccine when they though Trump might get credit. However, some other countries such as Japan wouldn't use it if there was something wrong with it, they even ban junk like Adderall over there.

If you want to convince someone to get it, please avoid tribal bs and CNN/Fox NEWs crap.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> Please follow the recommendations of the CDC and the rest of the medical community and get vaccinated.


I would also encourage people to go directly to the CDC website, don't take it from talking heads on cable "news", go straight to the real source.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 5, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> Well I was about to get BioNTech when suddenly news came out that young males did get heart problems after that. I guess I´ll wait until it´s fully exermined and we really know what it does with the body. (no flat earthler here, I´m a lab assistant)


The heart issues are exceedingly rare, and even given the possibility of heart inflammation, getting vaccinated is still highly recommended.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html


----------



## tabzer (Jul 6, 2021)

When you say that something has been _proven_ to be "safe" and "effective", and then new side effects are revealed, it's hard to say that something was ever proven to begin with.  Maybe it's easy for you because your comprehension of logic is faulty.

@Lacius 

It's safe, except when it's not.  It's effective, except when it's not.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> When you say that something has been _proven_ to be "safe" and "effective", and then new side effects are revealed, it's hard to say that something was ever proven to begin with.  Maybe it's easy for you because your comprehension of logic is faulty.
> 
> @Lacius
> 
> It's safe, except when it's not.  It's effective, except when it's not.


"Safe" doesn't mean "absolutely 100% safe." There can be side effects. Regardless, the vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you want to argue it isn't, please provide evidence.


----------



## Dust2dust (Jul 6, 2021)

Some people really don't get the laws of probability.  From what I read, you have more chances of being struck by lightning while walking outside, than suffering serious side-effects from getting covid vaccine.  Now would anybody rather stay inside at all times because it's too dangerous to go outside with all these lightnings striking people?

Besides, anybody who would rather not get vaccinated because they count on all the other people around them to get it, so in the end, they'll still be safe from the virus, are just parasites to society... trying to get all the benefits without providing the slightest effort.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 6, 2021)

https://www.westernjournal.com/experts-cdc-flip-flops-covid-several-times-one-week/

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/23/hea...-meeting-on-possible-link-to-covid-shots.html

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2021/...ding-over-ivermectin-and-killing-indians.html

https://www.newswars.com/frontline-...loroquine-in-defiance-of-big-tech-censorship/

Smug people are gonna smug.


----------



## The Real Jdbye (Jul 6, 2021)

Getting my 2nd Pfizer shot in a week. Woooo.


----------



## subcon959 (Jul 6, 2021)

This isn't directly about the vaccine but I would strongly urge everyone to watch/listen to the recent JRE podcast with Brett Weinstein (and an ICU Doctor whose name I can't remember). It's mostly about Ivermectin but there's stuff about big pharma, WHO, CDC and censorship which is relevant.

I had both shots a while back but listening to this really made me think about whether we could've avoided having to do so.


----------



## Gamemaster1379 (Jul 6, 2021)

Lacius said:


> "Safe" doesn't mean "absolutely 100% safe." There can be side effects. Regardless, the vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you want to argue it isn't, please provide evidence.


All vaccines are under emergency use authorization (EUA), suggesting they haven't gone through the full FDA approval process. Seems to suggest to me there hasn't been sufficient cultivation time in testing to understand the long term implications of these vaccines. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Not exactly a great situation to be in if you take the vaccine today and then find out 4 years from now a chronic, lifelong sideeffect that results from the vaccine. No real easy way to undo a 4 year old injection. At best, you'll be able to treat symptoms with supplemental medication--taking even more (possibly experimental) injections.

As someone who is young and healthy, I'd rather take my chances with COVID than a not yet approved experimental vaccine that's being shilled by every major news organization and left of center institution. Unfortunately, I will likely have to take it against my own will if I ever want to set foot on another airplane or my workplace -- as both require it.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 6, 2021)

Gamemaster1379 said:


> All vaccines are under emergency use authorization (EUA), suggesting they haven't gone through the full FDA approval process. Seems to suggest to me there hasn't been sufficient cultivation time in testing to understand the long term implications of these vaccines. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Several have applied for full authorization and it won't be long before it's granted.  Then you'll just move the goalposts again.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> As someone who is young and healthy, I'd rather take my chances with COVID than a not yet approved experimental vaccine that's being shilled by every major news organization and left of center institution.


So it's somehow the left's fault that right-wingers have gone off the deep-end and no longer understand or believe in science/germ theory?  Nah I think it's just easier for some people to stay ignorant.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 6, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Several have applied for full authorization and it won't be long before it's granted.  Then you'll just move the goalposts again.



Speaking of moving the goalposts..............

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/walensky-cdc-jake-tapper-cnn-schools-reopening



Xzi said:


> So it's somehow the left's fault that right-wingers have gone off the deep-end and no longer understand or believe in science/germ theory?  Nah I think it's just easier for some people to stay ignorant.



No, it's the lunatic left's fault for us non-sheep wanting to steer clear of this "vaccine". The more the CDC/Fauci lie and flip flop, the more I'm staying far away from it. I love how they entice you cattle with promises of million dollar jackpots, new cars, free scholarships if you take a "vaccine" for a virus with a 99% survival rate and you all jump right on it and guzzle down whatever the lügenpresse want you to parrot.

You and lacius in a nutshell:


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 6, 2021)

The irony of that post. Please continue to tell us how much of a free thinker you are, while posting every right wing website/meme you can find.


----------



## subcon959 (Jul 6, 2021)

As an outsider it's very bizarre to read interactions between Americans lately. The way you talk to each other it's almost like you've all been radicalised. There were always opposing sides but it never felt this pervasive. I really hope there's some way to fix it that doesn't involve a catastrophic civil crisis.

I have a feeling though that this could also just be an inevitable consequence of the internet and will happen everywhere eventually.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 6, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> https://www.westernjournal.com/experts-cdc-flip-flops-covid-several-times-one-week/
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/23/hea...-meeting-on-possible-link-to-covid-shots.html
> 
> ...


When new evidence becomes available, scientific thinking changes. That's a feature of medical science, not a bug.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> All vaccines are under emergency use authorization (EUA), suggesting they haven't gone through the full FDA approval process. Seems to suggest to me there hasn't been sufficient cultivation time in testing to understand the long term implications of these vaccines. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


Despite the vaccines being approved under EUA, they received extensive safety testing before that, and they've received even more extensive "testing" since then in the form of hundreds of millions of vaccinations. The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> Not exactly a great situation to be in if you take the vaccine today and then find out 4 years from now a chronic, lifelong sideeffect that results from the vaccine. No real easy way to undo a 4 year old injection. At best, you'll be able to treat symptoms with supplemental medication--taking even more (possibly experimental) injections.


None of the vaccine remains in the body after a few days/weeks, and the evidence suggests the likelihood of "lifelong side effects" to be near zero. However, contracting COVID-19 itself carries numerous high-severity and long-term risks, and these risks are much more likely than anything you might get with a vaccine.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> As someone who is young and healthy, I'd rather take my chances with COVID than a not yet approved experimental vaccine that's being shilled by every major news organization and left of center institution. Unfortunately, I will likely have to take it against my own will if I ever want to set foot on another airplane or my workplace -- as both require it.


I cannot emphasize enough how much greater the health risks are with COVID-19 than with the vaccine. You are nearly a million times more likely to die from COVID-19 than from a COVID-19 vaccine, and that's not an exaggeration. We still have approximately 200 people dying in the United States per day from COVID-19, and virtually all of them are unvaccinated. Putting aside risk of death (lol), you are much more likely to experience serious symptoms and long-term complications with COVID-19 than with a vaccine. For example, while the vaccine does nothing to alter your DNA and leaves your body in a few days/weeks, the virus that causes COVID-19 can make irreparable changes to the DNA of some of your cells.

This all doesn't even take into account the fact that getting vaccinated helps protect other people against COVID-19. Unvaccinated people are also a breeding ground for new variants, and each new variant comes with the possibility of reducing the effectiveness of the vaccines we currently have. None of us exist in a vacuum. What you do affects everyone.

If you can medically do so, you should get the vaccine as soon as possible.



gene0915 said:


> Speaking of moving the goalposts..............
> 
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/walensky-cdc-jake-tapper-cnn-schools-reopening
> 
> ...


You say that I am "willing to die fighting for what I was told to think," but unvaccinated people are the ones dying at a rate of approximately 200 people a day in the United States because they embraced "what they were told to think."



subcon959 said:


> As an outsider it's very bizarre to read interactions between Americans lately. The way you talk to each other it's almost like you've all been radicalised. There were always opposing sides but it never felt this pervasive. I really hope there's some way to fix it that doesn't involve a catastrophic civil crisis.
> 
> I have a feeling though that this could also just be an inevitable consequence of the internet and will happen everywhere eventually.


This isn't an issue of "both sides" having been "radicalized." There's one side in this country that has decided to embrace ignorance overy fact, party over democracy, conspiracy over science, dogma over reason, etc., and the rest of us are having to deal with the consequences of it.


----------



## Gamemaster1379 (Jul 6, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Several have applied for full authorization and it won't be long before it's granted.  Then you'll just move the goalposts again.



So if it's so amazing, and thoroughly tested, what's the issue? Why not just circumvent the standard years long approval process put on by the FDA and just give it full authorization? Surely we wouldn't move the goalposts, or change the fundamental architecture of a system just to push a narrative, now would we?

No amount of pushing through testing allows us to any more quickly understand the long term implications of this vaccine and its side effects.




Xzi said:


> So it's somehow the left's fault that right-wingers have gone off the deep-end and no longer understand or believe in science/germ theory?  Nah I think it's just easier for some people to stay ignorant


It's somehow right winger's fault that the left loves to overtake narratives, institutions like academia and media, and whatever else they can to get their way. Got it.











Lacius said:


> Despite the vaccines being approved under EUA, they received extensive safety testing before that, and they've received even more extensive "testing" since then in the form of hundreds of millions of vaccinations. The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.
> 
> None of the vaccine remains in the body after a few days/weeks, and the evidence suggests the likelihood of "lifelong side effects" to be near zero. However, contracting COVID-19 itself carries numerous high-severity and long-term risks, and these risks are much more likely than anything you might get with a vaccine.



Is the FDA running a time machine in their lab, and pushing people into it to understand the long term effects in a short period of time?



> I cannot emphasize enough how much greater the health risks are with COVID-19 than with the vaccine. You are nearly a million times more likely to die from COVID-19 than from a COVID-19 vaccine, and that's not an exaggeration.


I believe that, yes. Similarly, you are statistically less likely to be in a plane crash than a car crash. But if I had to be in one, I'd pick a car crash than a plane crash, as I'm statistically MORE likely to live through a car crash.  This is just rhetoric and ultimately a meaningless one.



> We still have approximately 200 people dying in the United States per day from COVID-19, and virtually all of them are unvaccinated. Putting aside risk of death (lol), you are much more likely to experience serious symptoms and long-term complications with COVID-19 than with a vaccine. For example, while the vaccine does nothing to alter your DNA and leaves your body in a few days/weeks, the virus that causes COVID-19 can make irreparable changes to the DNA of some of your cells



There's been so much misinformation passed around on COVID, that I find much of this difficult to believe. I don't consider ANY online news media source (regardless of whether it's "left" or "right") to accurately portray the effects of COVID (or frankly, many other things) because of biases and financial incentives. The same goes for academia, where many studies are never even published because their results mis-align with their funders. 

This isn't exclusive to just the medical industry. Just about any industry has it. My own does. That's why I don't tend to trust any level of journalism and focus on what's going on within the private sector directly. For that reason, I talk to friends and family who are actual medical experts (I have a number of relatives who are biologists and physicians), and I've not received any of this "chronic lifelong damage" feedback about the viruses from any of them who have treated patients with it, nor had it themselves.

COVID deaths are exaggerated. Hospitals were FINANCIALLY INCENTIVIZED to call something a COVID death, and the regulations on what was ruled as one were vague.  People dying of gunshot wounds being reported as COVID deaths was not irregular from hospitals because it helped them bump their numbers up to receive relief compensation from the government.



> This all doesn't even take into account the fact that getting vaccinated helps protect other people against COVID-19. Unvaccinated people are also a breeding ground for new variants, and each new variant comes with the possibility of reducing the effectiveness of the vaccines we currently have. None of us exist in a vacuum. What you do affects everyone


When you can't get someone to do something you want for "their own sake", force the narrative to be "for others sake", to take the sense of control away. 
In world war 2, certain regions of Europe were told to turn their lights off at night. No nightlights, no candles--even behind closed curtains. Why? You might attract the attention of bombers of an enemy nation and they could drop a bomb on your house or apartment, killing your neighbors. Because somehow, a non-tactical target in a residential district became prime bombing real estate for a little illumination.




> You say that I am "willing to die fighting for what I was told to think," but unvaccinated people are the ones dying at a rate of approximately 200 people a day in the United States because they embraced "what they were told to think."



You're willing to forego standard approval processes to risk potential chronic issues in the long term.

Of these supposed 200, how many were true COVID deaths and not hit by a bus while having an early onset cold with like symptoms to COVID?  Of that remainder, how many are "political extremists denying the vaccine" versus someone immunocompromised who couldn't take it in the first place or someone who lacked availability to get it in the first place? I imagine the narrative is a lot softer when numbers stop becoming inflated.




> This isn't an issue of "both sides" having been "radicalized." There's one side in this country that has decided to embrace ignorance overy fact, party over democracy, conspiracy over science, dogma over reason, etc., and the rest of us are having to deal with the consequences of it.


While that's an accurate depiction of Democrats--that seems a little harsh, don't you think?


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Doctors can give medical advice. Lacius should not.


Lacius isn't giving their own medical advise though. They are only echoing what doctors have said. And doctors have said it's safe.

For demonstration purposes, I got both shots. first shot I felt under the weather but not horrible. and it only lasted for a day. (got moderna vaccine)
I got sick for about 2 days on the second shot. But well, if you know how the immune system works, that makes sense. And then I recovered. And that was that.




gene0915 said:


> No, it's the lunatic left's fault for us non-sheep wanting to steer clear of this "vaccine". The more the CDC/Fauci lie and flip flop, the more I'm staying far away from it. I love how they entice you cattle with promises of million dollar jackpots, new cars, free scholarships if you take a "vaccine" for a virus with a 99% survival rate and you all jump right on it and guzzle down whatever the lügenpresse want you to parrot.
> 
> You and lacius in a nutshell:


you know... I think this heavily reminds me something the right said... what was it...
*die for the economy*
That it was just a little virus, it could do no harm?
That it would just disappear next week? I mean if your conflating weeks and year(s) then you got a problem.
Also remember hydroxychloroquine? How you know the previous president and the right was pushing it as a solution? Yeah so how did that work out again? People dying? Because it didn't work? Hmmmm... perhaps it was merely for grifting.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Gamemaster1379 said:


> While that's an accurate depiction of Democrats--that seems a little harsh, don't you think?


Are you really going to criticize democrats, as a republican?
you know _the party that supported a insurrection?_
that's a hard sell chief. And you know your party is trying to normalize the events on jaunary 6th. One of them outright tried to say it was a fucking peaceful protest, despite the fact he was hiding during the 6th.

ffs, department of homeland security has reccently stated there is a strong chance of another january 6th esk event in august, and that there is multiple provokers who continue to spread misinformation that will result in said new event. august (or was it September, will have to double check) lines up with conspiracies about trump getting reinstated in said months. Republicans are outright supporting insurrection. Overthrowing any democracy that we have left in this busted system, and putting a ruler ontop.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 6, 2021)

Gamemaster1379 said:


> So if it's so amazing, and thoroughly tested, what's the issue? Why not just circumvent the standard years long approval process put on by the FDA and just give it full authorization? Surely we wouldn't move the goalposts, or change the fundamental architecture of a system just to push a narrative, now would we?
> 
> No amount of pushing through testing allows us to any more quickly understand the long term implications of this vaccine and its side effects.


The FDA would not have granted EUA if the vaccines had not been demonstrated to be safe and effective, particularly in relation to the risks associated with COVID-19 itself. The vaccines were thoroughly tested, and the only reason they were given EUA instead of the normal approval is because of a technicality that has historically come from an overabundance of caution, not because the vaccines somehow haven't been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

The data shows that long-term side effects are highly unlikely, but this isn't the case with COVID-19 itself.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html



Gamemaster1379 said:


> It's somehow right winger's fault that the left loves to overtake narratives, institutions like academia and media, and whatever else they can to get their way. Got it.


This has nothing to do with the "left" arbitrarily wanting to "get their way." This is about health, medicine, science, logic, reason, and facts. It's not the fault of those who embrace science that a significant portion of the population engages in conspiratorial and anti-scientific thinking. It also isn't the fault of those who embrace science that the former president made this a political issue. If it were up to me, it wouldn't be one.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> Is the FDA running a time machine in their lab, and pushing people into it to understand the long term effects in a short period of time?


It doesn't take a time machine to have data about the vaccines being safe and effective, and it doesn't take a time machine to understand how the vaccines are likely to affect the human body.

The scientific evidence overwhelmingly shows that any significant risk of serious harm is only associated with COVID-19, not the vaccines. To argue that the vaccines are at all riskier or more dangerous than COVID-19 is conspiratorial and anti-scientific nonsense. You are literally about a million times more likely to die from COVID-19 than a vaccine.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> I believe that, yes. Similarly, you are statistically less likely to be in a plane crash than a car crash. But if I had to be in one, I'd pick a car crash than a plane crash, as I'm statistically MORE likely to live through a car crash.  This is just rhetoric and ultimately a meaningless one.


This analogy is a mess, since actually contracting COVID-19 is analogous with car crash when it comes to the odds of crashing, but it's analogous with a plane crash when it comes to the odds of surviving if there's a crash. If your goal isn't to experience severe symptoms or die, then you should get vaccinated. To use your mess of an analogy, get on a plane if you can choose how to travel (plane = vaccine), but you should choose a car crash if you get to choose how you want to crash (car crash = vaccine).

Your odds of experiencing severe symptoms, long-term symptoms, or death are exceedingly higher contracting COVID-19 than getting vaccinated. These are facts, not "meaningless rhetoric." It is highly recommended that everyone get vaccinated as soon as possible if they are medically able to do so. If you want to believe that the vaccine is more dangerous than the odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering serious effects, you're free to do so, but don't pretending it's anything other than conspiratorial anti-scientific nonsense, because that is what it is.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> There's been so much misinformation passed around on COVID, that I find much of this difficult to believe. I don't consider ANY online news media source (regardless of whether it's "left" or "right") to accurately portray the effects of COVID (or frankly, many other things) because of biases and financial incentives. The same goes for academia, where many studies are never even published because their results mis-align with their funders.
> 
> This isn't exclusive to just the medical industry. Just about any industry has it. My own does. That's why I don't tend to trust any level of journalism and focus on what's going on within the private sector directly. For that reason, I talk to friends and family who are actual medical experts (I have a number of relatives who are biologists and physicians), and I've not received any of this "chronic lifelong damage" feedback about the viruses from any of them who have treated patients with it, nor had it themselves.
> 
> COVID deaths are exaggerated. Hospitals were FINANCIALLY INCENTIVIZED to call something a COVID death, and the regulations on what was ruled as one were vague.  People dying of gunshot wounds being reported as COVID deaths was not irregular from hospitals because it helped them bump their numbers up to receive relief compensation from the government.


Everything I said about COVID-19 in my previous post is verifiably correct. If you are going to refuse to believe it because of conspiratorial thinking, then there isn't much I can do about it.

Approximately 605,000 Americans have died of COVID-19, with approximately 166 Americans dying per day over the last seven days. Before the vaccine, that makes the mortality rate associated with COVID-19 approximately 1% when you include asymptomatic people. In contrast, I'm only aware of one death associated with COVID-19 vaccination, and that out of hundreds of millions of vaccines. It was also a specific side-effect that we've now mitigated.

If you don't want to get vaccinated, that is your choice, but scientifically and mathematically, the right decision is to get vaccinated as soon as possible, and that's not even taking into account your ability to get infected with COVID-19 and spread it to others.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> When you can't get someone to do something you want for "their own sake", force the narrative to be "for others sake", to take the sense of control away.
> In world war 2, certain regions of Europe were told to turn their lights off at night. No nightlights, no candles--even behind closed curtains. Why? You might attract the attention of bombers of an enemy nation and they could drop a bomb on your house or apartment, killing your neighbors. Because somehow, a non-tactical target in a residential district became prime bombing real estate for a little illumination.


COVID-19 is an infectious disease. We've had vaccines against infectious diseases for centuries, and it has been understood for centuries that vaccination isn't just about you; it's also about the people around you whom you could potentially spread disease to. It's also about not risking the development of a new variant that's less affected by the vaccines.

If you want to believe that your personal vaccination decision doesn't affect others around you, feel free to do so, but let's not pretend it isn't more anti-scientific conspiratorial garbage. We know how herd immunity works.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> You're willing to forego standard approval processes to risk potential chronic issues in the long term.


At its peak, the disease was killing over 3,300 Americans each day. The vaccine was demonstrated to be safe and effective, and it was approved for EUA because it could save thousands of lives, if not more.

There is no evidence the vaccines are unsafe or cause significant risk of long-term chronic issues. The vaccine is fully gone from your body a few days/weeks after the vaccination, and it doesn't make significant alterations to your body aside from training your immune system. Any side-effects that might occur are likely to occur within six weeks of the last dose. The same cannot be said about COVID-19.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> Of these supposed 200, how many were true COVID deaths and not hit by a bus while having an early onset cold with like symptoms to COVID?  Of that remainder, how many are "political extremists denying the vaccine" versus someone immunocompromised who couldn't take it in the first place or someone who lacked availability to get it in the first place? I imagine the narrative is a lot softer when numbers stop becoming inflated.


Zero COVID-19 deaths were people "hit by a bus" after having early onset COVID-19 symptoms. All of the COVID-19 deaths in the last week were from people who died as a direct consequence of having COVID-19. Approximately 99-100% (the average is something like 99.2%, with some areas being 100%) of COVID-19 deaths in the last week were people who were unvaccinated. The overwhelming majority of these deaths were people who could have been vaccinated but weren't (a majority of those hospitalized with COVID-19 in this country express regret that the didn't get vaccinated when they could have), and I'm unaware of any significant lack of vaccine availability anywhere in the United States at this time. Anyone who wants to get vaccinated in this country could probably do so today.

You're spouting off conspiratorial and unsubstantiated nonsense. The data is clear. You should get vaccinated, for yourself and for others.



Gamemaster1379 said:


> While that's an accurate depiction of Democrats--that seems a little harsh, don't you think?


The anti-vaxxers, who are predominantly conservative in their political ideology, are the ones who have decided to embrace ignorance overy fact, party over democracy, conspiracy over science, dogma over reason, etc. The same goes for the Q-anon believers, the believers in widespread election fraud in the 2020 election, those who believe climate change is a myth, those who believe evolution is a myth, etc. This is a problem with the Republican Party, not the Democratic Party.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 6, 2021)

Reual said:


> Lacius isn't giving their own medical advise though. They are only echoing what doctors have said. And doctors have said it's safe.



He is choosing agency.  Not all doctors say the same thing.  Some doctor's have said it's safe, and after, some doctor's have said that it has done unexpected things.  If you die in two years, we will play damage control and assume no connection to the vaccine.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 6, 2021)

Lacius said:


> When new evidence becomes available, scientific thinking changes. That's a feature of medical science, not a bug.



That's called flip flopping....something liberals excel at. Which scientists are you listening to? The ones that are offering million dollar lottery payouts if you get the covid "vaccine" or the scientists that promoted vitamin D, ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine?

BTW, still waiting on you to show me an instance of a republican being a hypocrite! LULZ!



Lacius said:


> Despite the vaccines being approved under EUA, they received extensive safety testing before that, and they've received even more extensive "testing" since then in the form of hundreds of millions of vaccinations. The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



Extensive safety testing? HAHAHAH Guess they didn't catch the blood clots and enlarged heart problems in that extensive safety test. And the "more extensive testing".... that's what you sheep are doing for them now. And demonstrated to be safe? BY WHO? Dr. Bill Gates? Flip flopping Fauci the fraudster? HAHAHAHA



Lacius said:


> None of the vaccine remains in the body after a few days/weeks, and the evidence suggests the likelihood of "lifelong side effects" to be near zero.



Says who? How exactly did somebody calculate "lifelong side effects being near zero" at this stage of the game? They have a time machine?



Lacius said:


> cannot emphasize enough how much greater the health risks are with COVID-19 than with the vaccine. You are nearly a million times more likely to die from COVID-19 than from a COVID-19 vaccine, and that's not an exaggeration. We still have approximately 200 people dying in the United States per day from COVID-19, and virtually all of them are unvaccinated. Putting aside risk of death (lol), you are much more likely to experience serious symptoms and long-term complications with COVID-19 than with a vaccine.



Lots to unpack........ lets go:

70% of people that get AND BEAT BACK COVID suffer ZERO symptoms......  the "vaccine" would have done what exactly for that group?

Million times more likely to die from covid-1984 than the vaccine..... tell that to the family of Jacob Clynick. 13 year old boy died days after 2nd shot from an enlarged heart..........which is a known side effect from the "vaccine". Other families for you to contact and let them know the vaccine is safe are the parents of Kassidi Kurill and Sara Stickles and on and on and on. People that are all dead because they were sheep and got the "vaccine".

You want to play the numbers game....... ok..... 

200+ people die every day from diabetes
400+ people die every day from strokes
roughly 500 people die every day from accidents
1,600+ people die every day from cancer
1,800+ people die every day from heart disease

and covid deaths in the USA..... who knows. Hospitals lie about people dying from covid and the CDC and their "scientists" lie and flip flop on an hourly basis so I don't know how any sane person can look to them for concrete truth and solid answers. Well..... I know at least 2 people on here that can and do. 



Lacius said:


> This all doesn't even take into account the fact that getting vaccinated helps protect other people against COVID-19. Unvaccinated people are also a breeding ground for new variants, and each new variant comes with the possibility of reducing the effectiveness of the vaccines we currently have. None of us exist in a vacuum. What you do affects everyone.



Getting vaccinated does nothing to protect others from covid-1984. For folks that have been injected with the mystery goo, they can still be carriers. still get covid and still die from it. Me not getting vaccinated has zero impact on you or anyone else.



Lacius said:


> If you can medically do so, you should get the vaccine as soon as possible.



I graduated from the same medical school as lacius.... if you aren't a sheep, no way on God's green earth you should get this "vaccine".



Reual said:


> Lacius isn't giving their own medical advise though. They are only echoing what doctors have said. And doctors have said it's safe.



Yes, I agree that lacius is a parrot. Other doctors (who aren't flip flopping liars) have said to stay far away from this "vaccine". But since the media is controlled by insane, communist liberals..... there is only 1 point of views. Theirs.



Reual said:


> Also remember hydroxychloroquine? How you know the previous president and the right was pushing it as a solution? Yeah so how did that work out again? People dying? Because it didn't work? Hmmmm... perhaps it was merely for grifting.



Do some reading up about how totally flawed that hydroxychloroquine study was. It DOES work and that information was suppressed. That is why those doctors went public on capital hill to blast the media for withholding the truth.



Reual said:


> you know _the party that supported a insurrection?_



HAHAHA, now I know you have your head in the sand with lacius and xzi!!! The insurrection where the police officers OPENED THE DOORS AND INVITED IN THE PROTESTORS? Protestors which were caught on film changing out of their anti-fa rags to look like Trump supporters? Stop watching wall to wall MSNBC/CNN/Faux. Believe it or not, there are two sides to every story. Your parents and society have failed you.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> He is choosing agency.  Not all doctors say the same thing.  Some doctor's have said it's safe, and after, some doctor's have said that it has done unexpected things.  If you die in two years, we will play damage control and assume no connection to the vaccine.


All of the evidence suggests the vaccines are safe and effective. None of the evidence suggests the vaccines are not safe and effective. Every reputable medical group that I'm aware of recommends vaccination. Please show me evidence the vaccines are not safe and effective. Please show me a reputable medical group that does not recommend vaccination.



gene0915 said:


> That's called flip flopping


I'd rather use a system with the findings that comport with evidence and admits when it's wrong. I can't think of a system that's more intellectually honest.



gene0915 said:


> The ones that are offering million dollar lottery payouts if you get the covid "vaccine"


I'm not aware of any "scientists" doing the vaccine lottery. I believe governments are doing that. I also see nothing wrong with incentivizing vaccination.



gene0915 said:


> or the scientists that promoted vitamin D, ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine?


I'm unaware of any reputable scientists or medical groups promoting the use of these things. If I remember right, the idiotic former president and the right-wing media were the ones promoting pseudoscientific nonsense like hydroxychloroquine. Thank you for the reminder.



gene0915 said:


> BTW, still waiting on you to show me an instance of a republican being a hypocrite! LULZ!


You said that I am "willing to die fighting for what I was told to think," but unvaccinated people are the ones dying (at a rate of approximately 200 people a day in the United States) because they embraced "what they were told to think."

That was pretty funny, as well as hypocritical. I think I laughed out loud.



gene0915 said:


> Extensive safety testing?


Yes, the vaccines were tested extensively.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/research/publications/index.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Pfizer-BioNTech.html (Pfizer specifically, which is the most common COVID-19 vaccine in the United States)



gene0915 said:


> Guess they didn't catch the blood clots and enlarged heart problems in that extensive safety test


It was acknowledged, before the vaccines were even authorized, that super rare side effects might not have been caught during these trials, since a 1 in a million side effect, for example, is unlikely to pop up in a trial with fewer than a million participants.

The side effects you've referenced are extremely rare, and given our knowledge about them now, can be mitigated if they show up. They do not change the fact that the vaccines are safe and effective, particularly in contrast with the effects of actually contracting COVID-19.



gene0915 said:


> And demonstrated to be safe? BY WHO? Dr. Bill Gates? Flip flopping Fauci the fraudster? HAHAHAHA


That data comes from double-blind studies, as well as the hundreds of millions of vaccinations that have taken place across the country.



gene0915 said:


> Says who? How exactly did somebody calculate "lifelong side effects being near zero" at this stage of the game? They have a time machine?


It doesn't take a time machine to understand the effects the vaccines are likely to have on the human body, and it doesn't take a time machine to know that the vaccine doesn't stay in the human body for very long.



gene0915 said:


> 70% of people that get AND BEAT BACK COVID suffer ZERO symptoms......  the "vaccine" would have done what exactly for that group?



It's estimated to be about 40% of people with COVID-19 who are asymptomatic, not 70%.
The key you're missing is you cannot predict if you're going to be asymptomatic or end up in the hospital (or anything in-between).
We understand a lot less about the long-term effects of contracting COVID-19, even when it's seemingly asymptomatic, than we understand about the long-term effects of the vaccines. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the virus that causes COVID-19 has been demonstrated to sometimes irreparably alter the DNA of some cells, unlike the vaccine.
Those who contract COVID-19, even asymptomatically, can spread it to others, and they can spread it to others, and they can spread it to others. Vaccination makes spreading the disease to others a lot less likely.



gene0915 said:


> Million times more likely to die from covid-1984 than the vaccine..... tell that to the family of Jacob Clynick. 13 year old boy died days after 2nd shot from an enlarged heart..........which is a known side effect from the "vaccine". Other families for you to contact and let them know the vaccine is safe are the parents of Kassidi Kurill and Sara Stickles and on and on and on. People that are all dead because they were sheep and got the "vaccine".



As far as I can tell, it has not been confirmed that Jacob died as a consequence of getting vaccinated.
Kassidi Kurill likely didn't die as a result of the vaccine, according to the medical report.
I wasn't able to find any evidence that Sara Stickles' death was related to getting the vaccine.
When you're vaccinating hundreds of millions of people, sometimes they're going to die after being vaccinated. That's just statistics. That doesn't mean the vaccine was the cause. Correlation does not automatically mean causation, particularly when we are dealing with the high numbers of vaccines we are talking about. For each person you erroneously allege died of a COVID-19 vaccine, there are 100 million people who didn't. Cherry-picking data for unsubstantiated correlations doesn't accomplish what you think it accomplishes.

Let's pretend for a second that all of these deaths occurred as a result of getting vaccinated (there's no evidence of this), and let's pretend getting vaccinated didn't help the people around you (it does). Getting the vaccine would still be hundreds of thousands of times less deadly than actually contracting the virus.



gene0915 said:


> 200+ people die every day from diabetes
> 400+ people die every day from strokes
> roughly 500 people die every day from accidents
> 1,600+ people die every day from cancer
> 1,800+ people die every day from heart disease



These numbers sound roughly correct, so I'm not going to look them up. What is your point? Everything you listed is deadly, and we should do what we can to mitigate those deaths. If diabetes or strokes were communicable diseases, it would be recommended that we vaccinate against them too. If we had a safe and effective vaccine against diabetes, it would be pretty fucking stupid not to get it.
The main reason we are down to approximately 200 American deaths a day from COVID-19 is because so many people have been vaccinated. COVID-19 was killing approximately 3,300 Americans a day at its height. Per your numbers, that's over twice as many deaths as cancer, and you are saying people shouldn't go out and get vaccinated. Imagine a world where we could vaccinate against all cancers, and we could bring that daily deaths number from 1,800+ to 200. Instead, you're peddling anti-vaxxer bullshit. Are you insane?



gene0915 said:


> and covid deaths in the USA..... who knows.


We are down to about 200 deaths a day (that's the average for the last seven days or so) in the United States. At the highest point, it was approximately 3,300 deaths a day. The total number of American deaths by COVID-19 is about 605,000.



gene0915 said:


> Hospitals lie about people dying from covid and the CDC and their "scientists" lie and flip flop on an hourly basis so I don't know how any sane person can look to them for concrete truth and solid answers.


There is no evidence of widespread fraud with regard to the COVID-19 death numbers, and there's ample evidence that these numbers are real. There are plenty of reports of morgues being over capacity, etc. You can talk to just about anybody who worked in a hospital during that time, and they will corroborate. The kind of conspiracy you are suggesting would require millions of people from every just about every corner on the planet to be in on it.

Anecdotally, I had two relatives die of COVID-19, and my SO had one relative die of COVID-19. I have a friend whose mother and father both died of COVID-19. Your COVID-19 denial is as offensive as it is idiotic.



gene0915 said:


> Getting vaccinated does nothing to protect others from covid-1984. For folks that have been injected with the mystery goo, they can still be carriers. still get covid and still die from it. Me not getting vaccinated has zero impact on you or anyone else.


It is possible for someone who is vaccinated to contract COVID-19, but it is very rare, and if you are a vaccinated person who contracts COVID-19, you are a lot less likely to experience serious symptoms. A person who has contracted COVID-19, vaccinated or not, can spread it. This does not mean the vaccine is not effective. By getting vaccinated, you severely reduce the odds of getting it, and you severely reduce the odds of spreading it.

As I also mentioned in a previous threaded, unvaccinated people are a petri dish for new variants, and the more variants that pop up, the more likely it is the vaccines will be less effective against it.

Whether or not you get vaccinated absolutely affects the people around you, and if you're unlucky, it'll affect the whole planet. The delta variant that's in the news right now started with just one person who likely wasn't vaccinated.



gene0915 said:


> I graduated from the same medical school as lacius.... if you aren't a sheep, no way on God's green earth you should get this "vaccine".


The science is clear, and those who have been to medical school have been clear. Anyone who can get the vaccine should get the vaccine as soon as possible. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of those around you.



gene0915 said:


> Yes, I agree that lacius is a parrot. Other doctors (who aren't flip flopping liars) have said to stay far away from this "vaccine". But since the media is controlled by insane, communist liberals..... there is only 1 point of views. Theirs.


Please provide any evidence that the vaccine is not safe and effective, and please show us the statement from any reputable medical group that says the vaccine is not safe and effective.

The vast majority of qualified medical professionals (approximately 96%) have received the COVID-19 vaccine and recommend its use. It's time to stop this conspiratorial nonsense.

As for whether or not I'm a parroting anything (I'm not; I'm referencing it), it doesn't really matter since I'd be parroting the actual science, data, and CDC recommendations.



gene0915 said:


> Do some reading up about how totally flawed that hydroxychloroquine study was. It DOES work and that information was suppressed. That is why those doctors went public on capital hill to blast the media for withholding the truth.


Numerous studies show that hydroxychloroquine doesn't work with regard to COVID-19 and is more harmful than not using it at all. The former president idiotically and recklessly peddled it as though it was some miracle cure, despite not having evidence at the time that it was helpful.



gene0915 said:


> HAHAHA, now I know you have your head in the sand with lacius and xzi!!!


Only one of us is denying the preponderance of scientific evidence. If that isn't "having your head in the sand," I don't know what is.



gene0915 said:


> The insurrection where the police officers OPENED THE DOORS AND INVITED IN THE PROTESTORS? Protestors which were caught on film changing out of their anti-fa rags to look like Trump supporters? Stop watching wall to wall MSNBC/CNN/Faux. Believe it or not, there are two sides to every story. Your parents and society have failed you.


Rioters unlawfully and violently stormed the Capitol. There is no evidence of anybody on the left disguising themselves as supporters of the former president. Many of the rioters, including those who were arrested, are self-described supporters of the former president, and many of them had online presences for years before the insurrection that corroborate their Trumpism. I am sorry if the facts are inconvenient for you.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> All of the evidence suggests the vaccines are safe and effective, except the evidence that shows it's deadly......in which case, that data is ignored. Some of the evidence suggests the vaccines are not safe and effective. Every reputable medical group, that is approved of by liberal media, recommends vaccination. Please show me evidence, that Facebook approves of, the vaccines are not safe and effective. Please show me a reputable medical group, that isn't censored by big tech, that does not recommend vaccination.
> 
> I'd rather use a system with the findings that align to the narrative I've been fed by the lügenpresse and never admits when it's wrong. I can't think of a system that's more intellectually dishonest.
> 
> ...



Totally agree man!


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> All of the evidence suggests the vaccines are safe and effective.



Hahaha.  No, you are wrong.  All of the evidence?  Think about the words that you use.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Hahaha.  No, you are wrong.  All of the evidence?  Think about the words that you use.


Please provide the evidence from a reputable source that shows the vaccines are not safe and effective. Thank you.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 7, 2021)

figured this can help with the conversation. it's a nice watch.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Please provide the evidence from a reputable source that shows the vaccines are not safe and effective. Thank you.



Everytime you say something absurd like "all of the evidence shows it is safe," you should include a list of all the potential side effects like they do in the commercials.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Everytime you say something absurd like "all of the evidence shows it is safe," you should include a list of all the potential side effects like they do in the commercials.


I've acknowledged the potential side effects, as does the CDC on the pages I've linked to numerous times. Despite the potential for side effects, the vaccines have repeatedly been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

If you aren't going to provide any evidence the vaccines are unsafe or ineffective, I'm not sure why you're here.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I've acknowledged the potential side effects, as does the CDC on the pages I've linked to numerous times. Despite the potential for side effects, the vaccines have repeatedly been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



Every time someone doesn't die or exhibit bizarre side effects immediately after taking the vaccine is a "demonstration" to it being safe and effective, despite the person dying a couple weeks later, or contracting Covid anyway.  Your words are just propaganda designed to pressure people to get the vaccine.

Feel free to take it for them.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Every time someone doesn't die or exhibit bizarre side effects immediately after taking the vaccine is a "demonstration" to it being safe and effective, despite the person dying a couple weeks later, or contracting Covid anyway.  Your words are just propaganda designed to pressure people to get the vaccine.
> 
> Feel free to take it for them.


Being demonstrated to be safe and effective doesn't mean it's 100% safe and effective. The good news is serious side effects are exceedingly rare (much more rare than the odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering severe symptoms from that), and contracting COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated is also very rare. Even if you do contract COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated, you are very unlikely to suffer severe symptoms from the disease, and you are very unlikely to die from the disease if you have been fully vaccinated. Between 99-100% of COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths, depending on where you live, are people who are not vaccinated.

Part of the vaccination strategy is achieving herd immunity. If enough people are vaccinated, the virus isn't circulating, people aren't even exposed to it,  nobody contracts COVID-19, and nobody dies from COVID-19.

People shouldn't have to feel pressured to take the vaccine. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of the people around you. If acknowledging the demonstrable safety and efficacy of the vaccines, as well as the moral imperative to get vaccinated, are somehow pressuring for you, that says a lot more about your character than you think it does.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Being demonstrated to be safe and effective doesn't mean it's 100% safe and effective. The good news is serious side effects are exceedingly rare (much more rare than the odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering severe symptoms from that), and contracting COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated is also very rare. Even if you do contract COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated, you are very unlikely to suffer severe symptoms from the disease, and you are very unlikely to die from the disease if you have been fully vaccinated. Between 99-100% of COVID-19 hospitalizations and deaths, depending on where you live, are people who are not vaccinated.
> 
> Part of the vaccination strategy is achieving herd immunity. If enough people are vaccinated, the virus isn't circulating, people aren't even exposed to it,  nobody contracts COVID-19, and nobody dies from COVID-19.
> 
> People shouldn't have to feel pressured to take the vaccine. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of the people around you. If acknowledging the demonstrable safety and efficacy of the vaccines, as well as the moral imperative to get vaccinated, are somehow pressuring for you, that says a lot more about your character than you think it does.




Lol no.  You telling people to get a vaccine and that it is a moral imperative to do so is not me misinterpreting the message.

You could sell covid-19 as the cure with the same kind of messaging.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Lol no.  You telling people to get a vaccine and that it is a moral imperative to do so is not me misinterpreting the message.


People should get the vaccine if they are medically able to do so. The is the guidance from the CDC and every reputable medical organization I'm aware of.

Considering every human being on this planet is a potential vector for COVID-19 (or worse, for a more dangerous variant), the anti-science decision to not get vaccinated is a decision that negatively affects everyone around you in addition to yourself. There is indeed a moral imperative to get vaccinated.

I'm sorry if these facts are inconvenient for you, but moral imperatives are often inconvenient.



tabzer said:


> You could sell covid-19 as the cure with the same kind of messaging.


What?


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> the anti-science decision to not get vaccinated is a decision that negatively affects everyone around you in addition to yourself



Not wanting to be the test group of an ongoing scientific experiment means you are anti-science.

Not getting the vaccine negativity impacts you.

These are bunk.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Not wanting to be the test group of an ongoing scientific experiment means you are anti-science.
> 
> Not getting the vaccine negativity impacts you.
> 
> These are bunk.


The vaccines have repeatedly been demonstrated to be safe and effective. It is anti-scientific to suggest otherwise, yes.

Not getting the vaccine negatively affects you, and it negative affects the people around you if you don't get it, yes. To say that's "bunk" is conspiratorial garbage. We know the vaccine helps protect against COVID-19 and the actually serious effects of the disease, and we know the vaccines help protect against spreading that disease to others.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Not getting the vaccine negatively affects you.



This is illogical trash.



Lacius said:


> The vaccines have repeatedly been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



The vaccines have also repeatedly demonstrated adverse side effects and promoted a false confidence.


----------



## Iamapirate (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Despite the vaccine being in your best interest, and in the best interest of those who have to interact with you, it's your choice whether or not you want to be vaccinated. However, let's not pretend that one's refusal to get vaccinated is anything other than reckless and anti-scientific.


Why is it in my best interest?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



tabzer said:


> This is illogical trash.
> 
> 
> 
> The vaccines have also repeatedly demonstrated adverse side effects and promoted a false confidence.


Long-term testing of like what, six months? Are we forgetting vaccines often take years and decades to be approved?


----------



## Jayro (Jul 7, 2021)

Iamapirate said:


> Are we forgetting vaccines often take years and decades to be approved?


It's not like we're starting every vaccine from scratch. We use others as a base to start from.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Jayro said:


> It's not like we're starting every vaccine from scratch. We use others as a base to start from.



Yet it isn't settled science.  Here in Japan we had a vaccines cause horrible side effects for many people.  Other countries have had the same kind of situation.  Also, this one has less credentials than the ones that did cause big issues.

It would be nice if there was proof that a vaccine could work without side effects, but that isn't possible.

As Lacius might say, discarding the bodies is a feature of science, not a bug.


----------



## Jayro (Jul 7, 2021)

Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed that I didn't turn into William Burkin from  Resident Evil 2, given how badly my arm was hurting...


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Jayro said:


> Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed that I didn't turn into William Burkin from  Resident Evil 2, given how badly my arm was hurting...



You need more magnets.


----------



## laudern (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Please provide the evidence from a reputable source that shows the vaccines are not safe and effective. Thank you.



Right here bud

https://www.health.gov.au/sites/def...accination-after-your-astrazeneca-vaccine.pdf

Rare side effects that have been reported after COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca are:
 - A very rare and unusual clotting condition:
  --People with this condition get very unwell and need to go to hospital. This condition can lead to long-term disability, and even death.

Although it is pretty effective. If the vaccine kills you, you definitely won't get covid.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

laudern said:


> Right here bud
> 
> https://www.health.gov.au/sites/def...accination-after-your-astrazeneca-vaccine.pdf
> 
> ...



So the vaccine is safe *OR* effective.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> This is illogical trash.


By getting vaccinated, you are much less likely to contract COVID-19, and you are much less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death from COVID-19.



tabzer said:


> The vaccines have also repeatedly demonstrated adverse side effects and promoted a false confidence.


The potential for side-effects has been acknowledged. The odds of serious side-effects are vanishingly small, there are mitigations in place to deal with serious side-effects in the highly unlikely event that they do happen, and the odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering serious symptoms are much higher than the odds of suffering serious side-effects from a vaccine.



Iamapirate said:


> Why is it in my best interest?


By getting vaccinated, you are much less likely to contract COVID-19, and you are much less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death from COVID-19.



tabzer said:


> Yet it isn't settled science.  Here in Japan we had a vaccines cause horrible side effects for many people.  Other countries have had the same kind of situation.  Also, this one has less credentials than the ones that did cause big issues.
> 
> It would be nice if there was proof that a vaccine could work without side effects, but that isn't possible.
> 
> As Lacius might say, discarding the bodies is a feature of science, not a bug.


Most of the potential side-effects from the vaccine are a sign that your immune system is responding properly to the vaccine. It means it's working.



laudern said:


> Right here bud
> 
> https://www.health.gov.au/sites/def...accination-after-your-astrazeneca-vaccine.pdf
> 
> ...



The odds of experiencing the clotting side-effect with this specific vaccine are extremely small (approximately 1 in a million).
Now that we know about the potential for this rare side-effect, there are mitigations in place to avert serious harm from this side-effect.
There are clotting risks associated with lots of drugs, including but not limited to birth control pills and certain painkillers, and the risk of clotting is far higher with these drugs than with the vaccine. We still consider these drugs to me relatively safe.
Even given the odds of clotting with this vaccine, the vaccine is many times safer than potentially contracting COVID-19 and suffering serious symptoms as a result. For example, the odds of a clot with this vaccine is approximately 1 in a million (and if you have it, it can be mitigated), and the odds of dying from COVID-19 are approximately 1 in 100.
The vaccines are demonstrably safe and effective, and that includes the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines.



laudern said:


> Although it is pretty effective. If the vaccine kills you, you definitely won't get covid.


Your odds of dying from a vaccine are near zero. If you've contracted COVID-19, your odds of dying from COVID-19 are approximately 1 in 100. Your odds are even higher that you will suffer severe symptoms and/or need to be hospitalized due to a COVID-19 infection.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 7, 2021)

laudern said:


> Right here bud
> 
> https://www.health.gov.au/sites/def...accination-after-your-astrazeneca-vaccine.pdf
> 
> ...


It is rare tbf. Water can kill you too but we do not advice people not to drink it.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

SG854 said:


> It is rare tbf. Water can kill you too but we do not advice people not to drink it.


5,228 Americans died from choking in 2019. That doesn't mean food, generally, isn't safe or recommended.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> 5,228 Americans died from choking in 2019. That doesn't mean food, generally, isn't safe or recommended.


With those odds tabazer will see that as too dangerous and will start feeding through a IV.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

SG854 said:


> With those odds tabazer will see that as too dangerous and will start feeding through a IV.


Some fun math below

5,228 choking deaths in 2019
Population of USA in 2019 was 328.2 million
Assume each American eats three meals a day, 365 days a year (359,379,000,000 meals in 2019)
5,228 deaths out of 359,379,000,000 meals = about 1 in 69 million
331 million COVID-19 vaccines in the USA
Let's assume three people in the USA died as a direct consequence of the vaccine
3 deaths out of 331 million vaccines = about 1 in 110 million


----------



## subcon959 (Jul 7, 2021)

Why are you assuming 3 deaths from the vaccine? That seems very arbitrary.


----------



## mightymuffy (Jul 7, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Why are you assuming 3 deaths from the vaccine? That seems very arbitrary.


Let's not even get into his 1 in 100 covid death rate, which is, to be as nice as possible, broad at the very least  
But obviously he slaved away on notepad for some time on that post further up, so let's not be too cruel....


----------



## Ratatattat (Jul 7, 2021)

I find it beyond the point of stupidity ever time I hear the argument " I'm not getting the vaccination because we don't know all the future side effects, etc". Tell me this then "What are the future side effects of Covid-19". You don't know all of them either. Your argument holds NO credibility once you realize you know no more about COVID-19 then you do the vaccinations for such.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Why are you assuming 3 deaths from the vaccine? That seems very arbitrary.


I agree with you that it's arbitrary. I got that number from the CDC report that, out of 88 deaths that occurred after the J&J vaccine, 85 likely had nothing to do with the vaccine, but three of them were from CVST, a potential (but exceedingly rare) side-effect from the J&J vaccine. I am not saying all three of them died from the J&J vaccine, but I'm acknowledging it as a possibility and using that as a high figure for the math.



mightymuffy said:


> Let's not even get into his 1 in 100 covid death rate, which is, to be as nice as possible, broad at the very least


If you look at positive tests and COVID-19 deaths, the odds of death are about 1 in 56 if you test positive for the disease. However, that doesn't include asymptomatic people and people who contract COVID-19 but never receive a test. When you include asymptomatic people and people who never receive a test, the number is closer to 1 in 100 dying from the disease.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius and Xzi, save us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111

https://www.jpost.com/health-scienc...-new-lambda-covid-variant-concerns-who-673103

God help us all if the Lambda Lambda Lambda variant pops up!!!!!!11111111

Will somebody please page Dr. Bill Gates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Lacius and Xzi, save us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/health-scienc...-new-lambda-covid-variant-concerns-who-673103
> 
> ...


The best way to combat new variants from popping up is by vaccinating as many people as possible.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 7, 2021)

That's how we eradicated chicken pox


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

SG854 said:


> That's how we eradicated chicken pox


We effectively eradicated smallpox, not chickenpox. You're right that we did it through vaccination, however.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We effectively eradicated smallpox, not chickenpox. You're right that we did it through vaccination, however.


That's what I meant


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The best way to combat new variants from popping up is by vaccinating as many people as possible.



All I can say is thank God we have medical experts like you and Dr. Bill Gates leading the way!!!!!!11111111111 I'm totally OK with injecting people at gun point, like the Nazi's did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111 It's for the children!!!!

Hey, are you going to be at the Fascists Against Government meeting tonight? I'll save you a seat! I just got a new iPhone from Lebron James (he's soooooooooo woke.....except when it comes to China and slave labor camps making his Nike shoes) so we can watch Rachael Madcow tonight so she can tell us what to parrot next!!!!!!!!!!!11111111


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> All I can say is thank God we have medical experts like you and Dr. Bill Gates leading the way!!!!!!11111111111


I am not a medical expert, and Bill Gates is not a medical expert. However, the medical experts overwhelmingly agree that the best way to combat new variants from popping up is by vaccinating as many people as possible, and they overwhelming agree that the vaccine is safe and effective. Anyone who hasn't been vaccinated yet should get vaccinated as soon as possible. Listen to the science, and listen to the scientists.



gene0915 said:


> I'm totally OK with injecting people at gun point, like the Nazi's did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111 It's for the children!!!!


I don't think anybody in this thread suggested vaccinating people at gunpoint.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 7, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> All I can say is thank God we have medical experts like you and Dr. Bill Gates leading the way!!!!!!11111111111 I'm totally OK with injecting people at gun point, like the Nazi's did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111 It's for the children!!!!
> 
> Hey, are you going to be at the Fascists Against Government meeting tonight? I'll save you a seat! I just got a new iPhone from Lebron James (he's soooooooooo woke.....except when it comes to China and slave labor camps making his Nike shoes) so we can watch Rachael Madcow tonight so she can tell us what to parrot next!!!!!!!!!!!11111111


Lacius is only repeating what medical experts say. So if you disagree with Lacius you are actually disagreeing with medical experts. Now do you have a medical degree? To disagree with medical experts.


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> the odds of dying from COVID-19 are approximately 1 in 100.



WTF are you talking about?
I'm not a COVID conspiracy theorist or anti-vaxxer, but your number is stupidly wrong.
It's only true if you are over the age of 65.

*If you are under the age of 35, your chance of dying from COVID is 1 in 25,000.
If every person in the USA under 35 caught COVID, we would expect to see 6,000 deaths in that age group.
*
0-34 is   1 in 25,000
35-44 is 17 in 25,000.     (1 in 1,470)
45-54 is 57.5 in 25,000   (1 in 434)
55-64 is 187.5 in 25,000 (1 in 133)
65-74 is 625 in 25,000   (1 in 40)
75-84 is 2125 in 25,000 (1 in 11)
85+ is    7075 in 25,000 (1 in 3.5)


Total IFR is 1% (When adjust for the size of each of the age groups in the table below).
This doesn't tell the whole story. Old people skew mortality statistics. The data needs broken down by age group.

Here's the IFR table from wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic

0–34      0.004%
35–44    0.068%
45–54    0.23%
55–64    0.75%
65–74    2.5%
75–84    8.5%
85 +       28.3%




Lacius said:


> When you include asymptomatic people and people who never receive a test, the number is closer to 1 in 100 dying from the disease.



lol


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> WTF are you talking about?
> I'm not a COVID conspiracy theorist or anti-vaxxer, but your number is stupidly wrong.
> It's only true if you are over the age of 65.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why you're asking what I'm talking about, only to concede later that the total IFR is, indeed, approximately 1 in 100.

You are right that the mortality rate varies by age group, etc., but that doesn't change anything that I've said. The odds of of death by a vaccine are still many times less than the odds of dying by COVID-19, regardless of which age group you belong to.


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm not sure why you're asking what I'm talking about, only to concede later that the total IFR is, indeed, approximately 1 in 100.
> 
> You are right that the mortality rate varies by age group, etc., but that doesn't change anything that I've said. The odds of of death by a vaccine are still many times less than the odds of dying by COVID-19, regardless of which age group you belong to.



It's dishonest and anti-scientific to state that everybody has the same IFR.

"If you've contracted COVID-19, your odds of dying from COVID-19 are approximately 1 in 100."

You are nothing but a fear monger.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> It's dishonest and anti-scientific to state that everybody has the same IFR.
> 
> "If you've contracted COVID-19, your odds of dying from COVID-19 are approximately 1 in 100."
> 
> You are nothing but a fear monger.


1 in 100 are, approximately, the general odds of dying from COVID-19. It isn't fear mongering, and it definitely isn't anti-scientific. It's a fact.

If you want to nitpick the number and argue that it varies by age and other demographic information, great. You'd be correct. However, it doesn't change anything that I've said. Everybody who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of those around you, regardless of your age.

It is laughably ridiculous that you're calling anybody in this thread other than the anti-vaxxers "dishonest," "anti-scientific," and "fear mongering."


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 7, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Lacius is only repeating what medical experts say. So if you disagree with Lacius you are actually disagreeing with medical experts. Now do you have a medical degree? To disagree with medical experts.



Which medical experts are you talking about? Flip Flopping Fauci? Dr. Bill Gates? Medical "experts" that agree with the fear agenda and keep changing their stories to keep up with the lies coming from the CDC? THOSE "experts"? LOL!


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Which medical experts are you talking about? Flip Flopping Fauci? Dr. Bill Gates? Medical "experts" that agree with the fear agenda and keep changing their stories to keep up with the lies coming from the CDC? THOSE "experts"? LOL!


Over 96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend people get vaccinated as soon as possible. There is a mountain of evidence from various sources that the vaccines are safe and effective. If you are going to argue the vaccines are not safe and/or effective, please provide evidence. Otherwise, you're just spouting anti-scientific, conspiratorial nonsense. Thank you.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Total IFR is 1% (When adjust for the size of each of the age groups in the table below).
> This doesn't tell the whole story. Old people skew mortality statistics. The data needs broken down by age group.


1% is one and one hundred lol.



1% of 200 people is 2 people. 2/200 reduced is 1/100.

1% of 1,000 is 10 people. 10/1000 reduced is 1/100.

1% of 100,000 is 1000. 1000/100,000 reduced is 1/100.

lol


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> 1 in 100 are, approximately, the general odds of dying from COVID-19. It isn't fear mongering, and it definitely isn't anti-scientific. It's a fact.



You can state something that is technically true, and still be fear mongering.

You are misrepresenting data to support your narrative.

Stating the population IFR is meaningless since there is such great disparity in death rates.

If you tell somebody who is 85 that their chance of dying is 1 in 100, you are wrong.
If you tell somebody who is 35 that their chance of dying is 1 in 100, you are wrong.
In fact, your statement is only true for a person is ~67 years old.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> You can state something that is technically true, and still be fear mongering.
> 
> You are misrepresenting data to support your narrative.
> 
> ...


I was not talking to any particular person or any particular age group, which is why the general IRF is appropriate. If I was talking to someone specific who was explicitly 19 years old, for example, 1 in 100 wouldn't be appropriate.

You might as well be condemning me for acknowledging the average lifespan of an American as approximately 78 by saying, "No, American males have an average lifespan of about 75, and American females have an average lifespan of about 81." While technically true, it isn't particularly helpful or relevant with regard to the point I was making. It also doesn't change anything with regard to the vaccines being safe, effective, and recommended.


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I was not talking to any particular age group, which is why the general IRF is appropriate.
> 
> You might as well be condemning me for acknowledging the average lifespan of an American as approximately 78 by saying, "No, American males have an average lifespan of about 75, and American females have an average lifespan of about 81." While technically true, it isn't particularly helpful or relevant with regard to the point I was making. It also doesn't change anything with regard to the vaccines being safe, effective, and recommended.



False equivalency.

If you tell the average people in the USA they can expect to live until 78 years old, you are mostly correct.
If you tell an 85 year old person that their chance of dying is 1 in 100, you are off by about 25x.

Your "1 in 100" statement is like going into a pediatric cancer ward and telling the kids there that, on average, they can expect to live to be 78 years old based on their gender and where they live.
Technically true, but ignores factors and context that are vital to interpreting statistics.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> False equivalency.
> 
> If you tell the average people in the USA they can expect to live until 78 years old, you are mostly correct.
> If you tell an 85 year old person that their chance of dying is 1 in 100, you are off by about 25x.
> ...


The false equivalency is comparing a forum post to the public about everybody broadly to a statement made specifically to a pediatric cancer ward.

It is correct to say that a person broadly has a 1 in 100 chance of dying if they contract COVID-19. It is incorrect to tell a pediatric cancer ward that they, on average, should expect to live to be 78.

Do you have a point to make about vaccination safety or efficacy, or are you just here to be pedantic?


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The false equivalency is comparing a forum post to the public about everybody broadly to a statement made specifically to a pediatric cancer ward.
> 
> It is correct to say that a person broadly has a 1 in 100 chance of dying if they contract COVID-19. It is incorrect to tell a pediatric cancer ward that they, on average, should expect to live to be 78.
> 
> Do you have a point to make about vaccination safety or efficacy, or are you just here to be pedantic?



It's not pedantry, it fucking science.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> It's not pedantry, it fucking science.


I've acknowledged numerous times since the pandemic started that the death rates vary by age group, for starters. That's a scientific fact. That doesn't mean your post isn't pedantic or irrelevant to the context of my post or the point I was making.

A person with COVID-19, on average, has a 1 in 100 chance of dying. Those odds vary based on age and other factors. Do you have a point about vaccine safety and efficacy?


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 7, 2021)

Meh. Here's another scenario that demonstrates how misleading your statement is:

If we (in the USA) had forced everyone 65 or older to retire and hide in their homes, then left the rest of the population free to continue life as normal, IFR would be .14 in 100.

or 14 in 10,000



Lacius said:


> I've acknowledged numerous times since the pandemic started that the death rates vary by age group, for starters. That's a scientific fact. That doesn't mean your post isn't pedantic or irrelevant to the context of my post or the point I was making.
> 
> A person with COVID-19, on average, has a 1 in 100 chance of dying. Those odds vary based on age and other factors. Do you have a point about vaccine safety and efficacy?



I have nothing to say about vaccines. I just have to call out people's anti-science when I see it.



EDIT:
Let's break this down a little more.

For people 65 and under, the IFR is .16% or .16 per 100.
For people 65 and older, the IFR is 7.43% or 7.43 per 100.

Do you honestly feel that the unqualified statement: "Your chances of dying from COVID is 1 in 100" is accurate and truthful.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Meh. Here's another scenario that demonstrates how misleading your statement is:
> 
> If we (in the USA) had forced everyone 65 or older to retire and hide in their homes, then left the rest of the population free to continue life as normal, IFR would be .0014 in 100.
> 
> ...


That is true especially when comparing country to country. If a country has a much older population, more older people then the other country, then overall covid numbers will be screwed.

So comparing country to country just on pure death rates won't be an accurate representation on seeing whether a countries government properly or poorly handled covid response. There has to be other factors including before finding out.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Meh. Here's another scenario that demonstrates how misleading your statement is:
> 
> If we (in the USA) had forced everyone 65 or older to retire and hide in their homes, then left the rest of the population free to continue life as normal, IFR would be .0014 in 100.
> 
> or 14 in 1,000,000.


The average IFR of COVID-19, excluding anyone 65 and older, is approximately 1 in 500, not 1 in 71,000 like you stated. I'm not sure where you got your 1 in 71,000 number (or 14 in 1,000,000, as you put it), considering the IFR of the 0-34 age group (the least vulnerable group) is approximately 1 in 25,000 by itself.



WiiCurious said:


> I have nothing to say about vaccines. I just have to call out people's anti-science when I see it.


There's nothing anti-scientific about acknowledging the general IFR of 1 in 100 for people who contract COVID-19. You can disagree with my decision to bring it up, etc., but you can't argue it's anti-scientific.


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The average IFR of COVID-19, excluding anyone 65 and older, is approximately 1 in 500, not 1 in 71,000 like you stated. I'm not sure where you got your 1 in 71,000 number (or 14 in 1,000,000, as you put it), considering the IFR of the 0-34 age group (the least vulnerable group) is approximately 1 in 25,000 by itself.



Sorry. I messed up my numbers. It's fixed now.




Lacius said:


> but you can't argue it's anti-scientific.



Yes, I can.

It muddies the water and serves no purpose other than to further your own narrative.
It doesn't allow an individual to asses the personal risk level.
It doesn't covey the seriousness of COVID in the context of a certain population.

For example, you say "1 in 100 people die from COVID".
That would mean we need to keep college dorms closed, because 1% of students are going to die in the event of a COVID outbreak.
Which is simply untrue.

Also, "1 in 100 people die from COVID".
That means old people can visit their families, since spending a good portion of their remaining years in isolation is worse than a 1% chance at dying.

Science is not just whether a statement is technically true, but also if it conveys an idea accurately.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> By getting vaccinated, you are much less likely to contract COVID-19, and you are much less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death from COVID-19.



You honestly don't know my situation to be giving me such medical advice.  The illogical fallacy that not getting the vaccine negativity affects 'anybody' is an illogical fallacy.



SG854 said:


> With those odds tabazer will see that as too dangerous and will start feeding through a IV.



When we stop discovering new adverse side effects of eating food, then maybe I will eat again.

If you notice, I am not saying that people should or shouldn't get the vaccine or my vaccine history.  Most of my arguments on this site revolve around people's rights to choose how they live and what they want to believe.

In Japan, it is very easy to see why a nation may not trust a vaccine.  Historical experience with vaccines outweigh idealistic outcomes of the current vaccine.



SG854 said:


> Lacius is only repeating what medical experts say. So if you disagree with Lacius you are actually disagreeing with medical experts. Now do you have a medical degree? To disagree with medical experts.



Medical experts disagree with each other quite often.  You don't need a "medical degree" to disagree or refuse treatment.  You do need a medical license to recommend specific medical treatment though.

If Lacius doesn't want to butcher the context of what the CDC says, or overemphasize some facts over others based on what he thinks is important, then he can just recommend that people visit the CDC website instead of being proselytizing.



Lacius said:


> Over 96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend people get vaccinated as soon as possible



Whew.  Fake news.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 7, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Yes, I can.
> 
> It muddies the water and serves no purpose other than to further your own narrative.
> It doesn't allow an individual to asses the personal risk level.
> ...


I suggest you look at the context and point of my post where I used the 1 in 100 number. It was true and applicable in that context.



tabzer said:


> You honestly don't know my situation to be giving me such medical advice.


If you can medically get the vaccine, you should get the vaccine. If you are not sure about whether or not you are medically able to get the vaccine, you should consult your doctor.



tabzer said:


> The illogical fallacy that not getting the vaccine negativity affects 'anybody' is an illogical fallacy.



"The illogical fallacy is an illogical fallacy." That's a little redundant, don't you think?
Do you know what a logical fallacy is? How is what I'm saying fallacious? What is the fallacy called? If you are going to throw around terms like "logical fallacy," you are going to have to do better than this.
COVID-19 is a communicable disease, so not getting the vaccine absolutely affects those around you. If someone is going to contract COVID-19 in this country, it's probably from someone who is unvaccinated. If a new variant appears, it's probably going to be from a string of people spreading the disease who are mostly unvaccinated. This is verifiable fact.



tabzer said:


> If you notice, I am not saying that people should or shouldn't get the vaccine or my vaccine history.  Most of my arguments on this site revolve around people's rights to choose how they live and what they want to believe.


I don't think anybody here said people shouldn't be able to choose how they live or what they believe. We are talking about whether or not they should get vaccinated, and whether or not the vaccine is safe and effective.



tabzer said:


> In Japan, it is very easy to see why a nation may not trust a vaccine.  Historical experience with vaccines outweigh idealistic outcomes of the current vaccine.


The evidence shows the COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, recommended, and a much better bet than the risk of contracting COVID-19.



tabzer said:


> \Medical experts disagree with each other quite often.  You don't need a "medical degree" to disagree or refuse treatment.  You do need a medical license to recommend specific medical treatment though.


The medical professionals overwhelmingly recommend timely vaccination against COVID-19 if one is able to medically do so. If you want to argue against that, then by your standards, you require a medical license to do so.



tabzer said:


> If Lacius doesn't want to butcher the context of what the CDC says, or overemphasize some facts over others based on what he thinks is important, then he can just recommend that people visit the CDC website instead of being proselytizing.


I haven't misrepresented the CDC guidance, and I've recommended visiting the CDC website numerous times.



tabzer said:


> Whew.  Fake news.


AMA study (it's a PDF): https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf
96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated.


----------



## Iamapirate (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> By getting vaccinated, you are much less likely to contract COVID-19, and you are much less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> The potential for side-effects has been acknowledged. The odds of serious side-effects are vanishingly small, there are mitigations in place to deal with serious side-effects in the highly unlikely event that they do happen, and the odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering serious symptoms are much higher than the odds of suffering serious side-effects from a vaccine.
> ...


I'm not obese, old or with pre-existing conditions.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2021)

Iamapirate said:


> I'm not obese, old or with pre-existing conditions.


I'm glad, but you should still get vaccinated if you are medically able to do so. The risk of serious side effects with the vaccine is extremely small compared to the risks associated with COVID-19, even if you're not obese, old, or having pre-existing conditions. Whether or not you're vaccinated also affects those around you.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 8, 2021)

I like how there's almost a page of splitting hairs.
That guy must really like Bill Gates,since they are the only one that keep bringing him up in the first place.
Man, I actually haven't read or heard "fake news" for a while now.


----------



## Iamapirate (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm glad, but you should still get vaccinated if you are medically able to do so. The risk of serious side effects with the vaccine is extremely small compared to the risks associated with COVID-19, even if you're not obese, old, or having pre-existing conditions. Whether or not you're vaccinated also affects those around you.


I'm not responsible for your health and vice versa. Why have a vaccine (where the long-term effects are yet to be seen) when I'm not at any serious risk from this virus by all available data? It disproportionately effects elderly people and people with compromised immune systems.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 8, 2021)

Oh heck no, not one of these threads. I'm gonna end up disputing the shet out of people.

I got the vaccine a while back and I'm feeling *awesome. *I've been able to reclaim what little social life I've had, and it's been wonderous.

The CDC is telling the truth, and I'm pushing pro-vaccine propaganda as much as Waluigi propaganda.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2021)

Iamapirate said:


> I'm not responsible for your health and vice versa. Why have a vaccine (where the long-term effects are yet to be seen) when I'm not at any serious risk from this virus by all available data? It disproportionately effects elderly people and people with compromised immune systems.


You are not legally responsible for the health of others around you, but you have a moral imperative to get vaccinated and protect those around you. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be much safer than the risks associated with contracting COVID-19, so it's also a win-win for you.

The virus disproportionately affects the elderly and people with other conditions, but that doesn't mean you are immune to serious symptoms from the virus. You can be young and healthy and die from the disease, and you don't know if you're going to be lucky or unlucky. If, rightly, you want to make an informed decision based on the odds, the vaccine comes with risks far less likely than the risks associated with COVID-19, regardless of your age and health.

The long-term health effects of COVID-19 are more a mystery than the long-term health effects of the vaccines, and the long-term health effects of COVID-19 are also much more probable. As I've mentioned earlier, the vaccine has completely left your body days/weeks after the last dose, but the virus can make permanent alternations to the DNA in some of your cells. This is only one of many examples of how the the virus is muck riskier.

Follow the advice of the CDC and every other reputable medical group: Get vaccinated now, and contact your doctor if you have any questions or concerns about whether or not you can take the vaccine.


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Jul 8, 2021)

got the first dose


----------



## WG481 (Jul 8, 2021)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> got the first dose


Thank heavens we have some educated people here


----------



## ChaoticCinnabon (Jul 8, 2021)

Got my second dose yesterday, feeling good. people really need to get it, and i'm fucking sick of people comparing it to a holocaust of ""5g control towers"" and ""liberal brainwashing for the jewish elite"".

I have literally seen people make these claims and it taught me, vaccines can sure as hell keep us immune or at least protected from disease, but not stupidity.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 8, 2021)

Don't worry brah ............

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alison...-billion-baby-powder-lawsuit/?sh=d441f313d6eb

.... trust the science.......

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/just...gest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

..... trust the "medical experts".......

Us folks at big pharma would never ever EVER lie to the public about anything! Especially something as  ̶l̶u̶c̶r̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶  deadly serious as the worst virus known to mankind! A virus that is so deadly you need a test to know you have it and your survival rate is only 99% if you get infected with covid-1984.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Don't worry brah ............
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/alison...-billion-baby-powder-lawsuit/?sh=d441f313d6eb
> 
> ...


The links you've provided have nothing to do with vaccines of any kind. The first link has to do with talc in baby powder, and the second link has to do with marketing, not medicine/science. With regard to the baby powder lawsuit, the only reason we know there might be a correlation between talc applied to the perineal area and ovarian cancer is because of the science. I would never make the argument that one should blindly trust corporations. We should, however, trust the science. Your examples either have nothing to do with science, or demonstrates an example of the importance of science. Oof.

The COVID-19 pandemic is, so far, the eighth deadliest pandemic the world has seen (with regard to total deaths). In a short time, it has killed millions of people worldwide, and that's with mitigation strategies like social distancing, masks, etc.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 8, 2021)

ChaoticCinnabon said:


> Got my second dose yesterday, feeling good. people really need to get it, and i'm fucking sick of people comparing it to a holocaust of ""5g control towers"" and ""liberal brainwashing for the jewish elite"".
> 
> I have literally seen people make these claims and it taught me, vaccines can sure as hell keep us immune or at least protected from disease, but not stupidity.


Another educated person! Pfizer, Moderna, or J&J?

If you're still hung up on 5G towers, (those of you Karens out there, not ChaoticCinnabon) you have to be joking. You get a higher background dose of radiation from your microwave than a 5G tower. The *literal sun* gives you more radiation than a 5G tower. Comparing it to chernobyl or whatever is 100% Bona Fide Idiocy featuring Hints of Shet-Brain.

The vaccines have increased my physical (and mental for that matter, because I can talk to people now) health to a point where I am immune/protected against most diseases. I have never had a bad strain of the flu, I haven't gotten Tetanus from getting cut, and COVID fears me. People need to go back to Fourth Grade Health where your teacher explains how vaccines are like force-fields and you get a Hello Kitty sticker at the end.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> "The illogical fallacy is an illogical fallacy." That's a little redundant, don't you think



It's not redundant enough if you are positing that not getting the vaccine negatively affects you or the people around you.  Not taking the concoction doesn't hurt you.  If you can quote the CDC saying this, that would be welcomed.



Lacius said:


> If you can medically get the vaccine, you should get the vaccine.



According to your medical agency of choice maybe.



Lacius said:


> We are talking about whether or not they should get vaccinated



People should do as they best believe that they can.



Lacius said:


> The evidence shows the COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, recommended, and a much better bet than the risk of contracting COVID-19.



This is a canned response that blatantly ignores the content to which it was supposedly a response to.



Lacius said:


> The medical professionals overwhelmingly recommend timely vaccination against COVID-19 if one is able to medically do so. If you want to argue against that, then by your standards, you require a medical license to do so.



Prescribing your choice of agency and medicine does not equal my advocacy for (potential) patient rights.  They are free to follow their advice OR not.  "The majority" = "The most represented by your media of choice".



Lacius said:


> I haven't misrepresented the CDC guidance, and I've recommended visiting the CDC website numerous times.



Not only are you parroting the CDC and injecting your own personal beliefs in between statements (as facts no less), but you also omit relevant details when you want to emphasize the sales pitch (marketing).



Lacius said:


> AMA study (it's a PDF): https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf
> 96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated.



Oh cool, a survey that supports what I want you to believe.

You are going to take a survey of 300 physicians and say it represents all physicians.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The links you've provided have nothing to do with vaccines of any kind. The first link has to do with talc in baby powder, and the second link has to do with marketing, not medicine/science. With regard to the baby powder lawsuit, the only reason we know there might be a correlation between talc applied to the perineal area and ovarian cancer is because of the science. I would never make the argument that one should blindly trust corporations. We should, however, trust the science. Your examples either have nothing to do with science, or demonstrates an example of the importance of science. Oof.
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic is, so far, the eighth deadliest pandemic the world has seen (with regard to total deaths). In a short time, it has killed millions of people worldwide, and that's with mitigation strategies like social distancing, masks, etc.


I'll give you a like. I normally don't give likes. But it's hilarious to see everytime someone tries to have a gotcha moment with attempts of confident sarcasm and you just crush that lol.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 8, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You are going to take a survey of 300 physicians and say it represents all physicians.


Yep, because it's pretty accurate at that point. In fact, most polling you read like that comes from a control group of 100-200, so it's also contaminated the crap you read.

Like I said earlier, vaccine propaganda is up there with Waluigi, and I will stop at nothing to ensure that everyone is vaccine knowledgeable. @Lacius is right, the vaccine can potentially save thousands of people, and the CDC is correct about the studies of it.



tabzer said:


> Oh cool, a survey that supports what I want you to believe.


It comes from a credible source, and thus, is a good representation.


*
To the rest of you out there:* The COVID-19 vaccine is packed with research from our finest, most trusted doctors. If there would be side affects, I'd tell you, because I got it a month ago and I feel awesome. P*eople who don't take the vaccine because they are allergic to the substance they grow vaccines in (eggs) are fine.* *If you can medically get vaccinated, do it now. The lives you save and the anguish you will prevent are worth more than being self-centered about poison and microchips. You use the internet, you have a microchip tracking you. You will get more poison from the McDonalds McFish Fillet than a vaccine. It is proven. Vaccines do not cause mental illness and have never had a link since the mid 1900's when mercury was discovered to be toxic and was thus removed. *


----------



## laudern (Jul 8, 2021)

https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...com.au&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=Social Bakers

Oh dear. Another death linked to the vaccine in Australia. So far the vaccine has killed more people this year than the "deadly" virus itself in Australia.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 8, 2021)

WG481 said:


> It comes from a credible source, and thus, is a good representation.



Like it or not, the survey I linked to is credible.  Even though it is "super-ultra-right-winged", according to lefties-dominopedia.

Therefore the results of multiple surveys reflecting different results show a definite lack of consensus.


----------



## linuxares (Jul 8, 2021)

Got my first jab yesterday, feel like shit today. But it's part of the course. It's just some of the normal side effects.


----------



## LostRabbit (Jul 8, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Thank heavens we have some educated people here



My thoughts exactly.


Well, i gotta say.. im really positively surprised about most this threads comments. So many rational arguments.
Much probability calculation and stuff going on tho.

Personally, ive been keeping distance to most other people all the time.. Just like i did before all of this.
In general im a very generous and tolerant person, i believe. I wanna help people out, be reliable, been well educated and stuff..

Its just.. most people annoy me so much with their idiotic behavior. COVID-19 made all of that a whole lot worse.


We are all in this together. While most of the people do what they can, sacrifice a lot of their "freedom", keep distance, wash their darn hands and nowadays try to get vaccinated..  there are a few people who ruin the whole thing for *everyone*. 

If you wanna believe in whatever strange theory or don't want to take any kind of risk.. stay at home, lock yourself away somehow but stop spreading this sht 

But aaaanyway.. and back to the question: *Yes! i got vaccinated* the first time a few weeks ago and will get biontech pfizer a second time. However, it had caught me before anyway, my whole family has been in quarantäne for some weeks in late 2020. 

Thank you all, for sharing your thoughts and experiences here. We will get through this


----------



## Glyptofane (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The links you've provided have nothing to do with vaccines of any kind. The first link has to do with talc in baby powder, and the second link has to do with marketing, not medicine/science. With regard to the baby powder lawsuit, the only reason we know there might be a correlation between talc applied to the perineal area and ovarian cancer is because of the science. I would never make the argument that one should blindly trust corporations. We should, however, trust the science. Your examples either have nothing to do with science, or demonstrates an example of the importance of science. Oof.
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic is, so far, the eighth deadliest pandemic the world has seen (with regard to total deaths). In a short time, it has killed millions of people worldwide, and that's with mitigation strategies like social distancing, masks, etc.





SG854 said:


> I'll give you a like. I normally don't give likes. But it's hilarious to see everytime someone tries to have a gotcha moment with attempts of confident sarcasm and you just crush that lol.


Yeah, not like J&J knew about the asbestos in talc and warnings about it since the 1970s yet continued to market it until recently. Oh wait, they did? Sure, these corporations may have been involved with greedy, murderous cover-ups just a few short years ago, but by god, they're only interested in saving lives with untested experimental gene therapy now because science! Over 40 years for J&J's scandal to come to light and yet the long-term results of these injections are already presumed to be known and "relatively safe" even though it's not even looking very good for the short-term ones.


----------



## linuxares (Jul 8, 2021)

@LostRabbit people forget that all freedom comes with a cost. They will most likely be barred from airplanes for a considerable time forward that haven't gotten vaccinated. I feel it's my duty as a citizen to protect my fellow people and especially those who can't get the vaccines because of allergies. These fuckwats haven't been alive when the measles, mupps, polio etc. was common place. If they were, they wouldn't be anti-vaxx.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 8, 2021)

I can't believe we are still debating safety and conspiracies. Everyone i know and myself got at least 1 shot. You might or might not get sick for a few days but it's a million times better than getting hospitalized and maybe die as well. If you wanna believe the conspiracy nonsense and not get vaccinated then that's your decision but then have the balls and stay the fuck away from everyone vulnerable/unvaccinated and wear masks. Thank you.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The links you've provided have nothing to do with vaccines of any kind.



But they DO show you that big pharma lies and they are not trustworthy. I'm still on the fence about you being a sarcastic troll or if you truly believe everything the lügenpresse throws your way.

Here's another example of your CDC lying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

I also loved how the CDC lowered the Ct for PCR tests because they knew it was too high and inflated the numbers. 

https://washingtonwatch.org/caught-...holds-to-virtually-eliminate-new-covid-cases/

Say, can you provide me with a SINGLE (and scientifically/medically verifiable) example of somebody not dropping dead from covid-1984 because they got the "vaccine"?

...... you know, the more I think about it the more I think you're a sarcastic troll because nobody in their right mind could look at how the CDC and Fauci the fraudster flip flop and not have a light go off in their head and start to question things.

Something else weird.... red states that dropped their mask mandates and opened back up saw falling/zero cases of new covid-1984 infections and when Fauci the fraudster was questioned about this, he couldn't explain the drop. (Note; red states have lower instances of people getting vaccinated.)

Any thoughts on the gain of function research around covid-1984 and who funded it?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's not redundant enough if you are positing that not getting the vaccine negatively affects you or the people around you.  Not taking the concoction doesn't hurt you.  If you can quote the CDC saying this, that would be welcomed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whether or not a person should be able to make the decision themselves about getting vaccinated is an entirely different question from whether or not a person should get vaccinated. I am not arguing that a person should not be able to make that decision.

I haven't said anything about COVID-19 or the vaccines that isn't factually correct and supported by the CDC and every reputable medical group out there. With regard to you asking where the CDC says not getting the vaccine makes you more likely to contract COVID-19 and spread it to other people, here:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html
The American Medical Association is a professional medical group with 240,359 members as of 2016, making up a significant portion of the doctors in this country. They are a representative body of doctors in this country, and their purpose is medical and professional. The poll I cited is also representative of doctors in this country.

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is a right-wing political advocacy group, not a professional or medical association. They advocate for pseudoscientific political positions and pretend they're medical positions. Examples include "HIV/AIDS denialism, the abortion-breast cancer hypothesis, vaccine and autism connections, and homosexuality reducing life expectancy." The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons has approximately 5,000 members, which is about 2% the number of American Medical Association members, and is selectively skewed towards a particular political ideology that works against medicine and scientific thinking. In other words, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is far from a representative body. It would be like conducting a poll on GBATemp asking if you play video games and using that as representative of the population in general. If you have to cite the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, you've already lost your argument.



laudern said:


> https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...com.au&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=Social Bakers
> 
> Oh dear. Another death linked to the vaccine in Australia. So far the vaccine has killed more people this year than the "deadly" virus itself in Australia.


More people have not died from COVID-19 vaccines than from the disease itself.

910 people have died from COVID-19 in Australia, and I can't find more than one example of anyone potentially dying as the result of the vaccine. Your own link acknowledges that the benefits of the vaccines far outweigh the risks associated with the vaccines and the risks associated with COVID-19. It should also be noted that the the specific risks associated with the AstraZeneca vaccine have since been mitigated, and it is possible the woman's recent viral illness had a part to play in her death.

Worldwide, there have only been a handful of cases where someone has probably died as a direct result of a COVID-19 vaccine, and these specific risks (e.g. blood clots) have since been mitigated. However, over 4 million people have died worldwide from the COVID-19 disease itself. The science and the numbers are clear: If you can medically get vaccinated, you should get vaccinated.



Glyptofane said:


> Yeah, not like J&J knew about the asbestos in talc and warnings about it since the 1970s yet continued to market it until recently. Oh wait, they did? Sure, these corporations may have been involved with greedy, murderous cover-ups just a few short years ago, but by god, they're only interested in saving lives with untested experimental gene therapy now because science! Over 40 years for J&J's scandal to come to light and yet the long-term results of these injections are already presumed to be known and "relatively safe" even though it's not even looking very good for the short-term ones.


You're citing an example of a company refusing to listen to science, which does nothing to support an anti-vaxxer's decision to refuse to listen to science.

The COVID-19 vaccines are not "experimental gene therapy." The big two COVID-19 vaccines are mRNA vaccines. They do not make any alterations to one's DNA, and the vaccines is completely gone from one's body a few days/weeks after the last dose.

All of the evidence shows the vaccines are generally safe and effective, particularly when contrasted with the risks associated with COVID-19.  The studies that demonstrate this were independent and double-blind. The pharmaceutical companies couldn't have affected the results of the studies even if they had wanted to. The same goes for the studies that showed a possible link between talc powder and ovarian cancer, which is why J&J lost the case.



gene0915 said:


> But they DO show you that big pharma lies and they are not trustworthy. I'm still on the fence about you being a sarcastic troll or if you truly believe everything the lügenpresse throws your way.
> 
> Here's another example of your CDC lying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
> 
> ...


What the CDC was involved with back in 1932 is irrelevant to the current conversation about COVID-19 vaccines.

Numerous studies and reports show that the vast majority of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 (95-98%), and the vast majority of patients who die from COVID-19 (95-100%), are unvaccinated. These numbers are from the last couple of months.

Every study I'm aware of from before the vaccine showed that mask mandates and other COVID-19 mitigation policies were effective in dropping the infection rate. The apples-to-apples comparisons in Kansas were particularly irrefutable.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947e2.htm


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is a right-wing political advocacy group, not a professional or medical association. They advocate for pseudoscientific political positions and pretend they're medical positions. Examples include "HIV/AIDS denialism, the abortion-breast cancer hypothesis, vaccine and autism connections, and homosexuality reducing life expectancy." The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons has approximately 5,000 members, which is about 2% the number of American Medical Association members, and is selectively skewed towards a particular political ideology that works against medicine and scientific thinking. In other words, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons is far from a representative body. It would be like conducting a poll on GBATemp asking if you play video games and using that as representative of the population in general. If you have to cite the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, you've already lost your argument.


If tabzer claims that a website is "credible," you can be sure that it isn't.  tabzer's seal of approval is pretty much the kiss of death.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 8, 2021)

laudern said:


> https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...com.au&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=Social Bakers
> 
> Oh dear. Another death linked to the vaccine in Australia. So far the vaccine has killed more people this year than the "deadly" virus itself in Australia.


Actually, the vaccine ingredients within it combined with her pre-existing condition, which she should've checked on. That vaccine wasn't made correctly, and thus, it messed with her blood clotting condition. Did you read past the headline?



gene0915 said:


> But they DO show you that big pharma lies and they are not trustworthy. I'm still on the fence about you being a sarcastic troll or if you truly believe everything the lügenpresse throws your way.
> 
> Here's another example of your CDC lying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
> 
> ...



Um, there is no scientific research behind your links. If this were Twitter I'd fact check your arse. Nothing that you are posting has anything to do with the effect of the vaccine. Sir, you have lost your place in this conversation.

I love how you ask for someone not dropping dead from COVID post-vaccine. The whole point of it is to make you immune/effectively defensive against COVID. You want a verifiable case? Here, come to where I live where people get vaccinated and sometimes get COVID. Guess what? They didn't die. You can suck my right butt-cheek.



linuxares said:


> @LostRabbit people forget that all freedom comes with a cost. They will most likely be barred from airplanes for a considerable time forward that haven't gotten vaccinated. I feel it's my duty as a citizen to protect my fellow people and especially those who can't get the vaccines because of allergies. These fuckwats haven't been alive when the measles, mupps, polio etc. was common place. If they were, they wouldn't be anti-vaxx.





ghjfdtg said:


> I can't believe we are still debating safety and conspiracies. Everyone i know and myself got at least 1 shot. You might or might not get sick for a few days but it's a million times better than getting hospitalized and maybe die as well. If you wanna believe the conspiracy nonsense and not get vaccinated then that's your decision but then have the balls and stay the fuck away from everyone vulnerable/unvaccinated and wear masks. Thank you.


@linuxares and @ghjfdtg, thank you too for being people who present logic in here. @Lacius as well. You have my thanks.

To heck with people claiming they got sick after the shot. That's the point. Your body is fighting off the new proteins made by the mRNA messenger. That's the good part about mRNA is that it's not a dead illness, it's a protein coming to save the day. Conspiracies and anti-vaxx people, you know what I have to say? *YOU ARE IDIOTS.* GBATemp ToS can report me for all I care, but not getting a vaccine due to baseless theories and forged news sources is utter B.S. Would you rather "stand out" and "be proud of your country" being the mighty few who don't get a single strand of ribonucleic acid (RNA**) stuck in your body to protect others? You have to be kidding me. I can rage about this all week and, heck, even fight back against it.

FUN FACT: If you get the first shot and your sickness is worse than the second, you had COVID before. A study done showed that the antibodies affect the first shot if you had COVID before.

**Ribonucleic acid, or RNA, is a single-stranded piece of bases that regulate how proteins are made. By giving a cell some new mRNA within the vaccine, it creates one protein of COVID and kills it, thus giving your immune system more power. RNA is a naturally occurring part of the body, much like DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid; Ribonucleic acid, deoxidized) which is the code of all life.


----------



## linuxares (Jul 8, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Actually, the vaccine ingredients within it combined with her pre-existing condition, which she should've checked on. That vaccine wasn't made correctly, and thus, it messed with her blood clotting condition. Did you read past the headline?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would almost be afraid if I didn't feel anything after the vaccine. I would be afraid that it didn't work.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 8, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I would almost be afraid if I didn't feel anything after the vaccine. I would be afraid that it didn't work.


Right? Whenever someone in my family gets a vaccine they're a little spaced out or sick, which is why I always look for the side effects.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Whether or not a person should be able to make the decision themselves about getting vaccinated is an entirely different question from whether or not a person should get vaccinated.



The answers to both questions are outside of the scope of your domain.



Lacius said:


> I haven't said anything about COVID-19 or the vaccines that isn't factually correct



You are positing that not getting the vaccine negatively affects you or the people around you. Not taking the concoction doesn't hurt you. If you can quote the CDC saying this, that would be welcomed.

You have acknowledged the vaccine as being a "bet", and I would agree.  But every time you post that "all evidence says its safe" without also citing the side effects it is marketing strategy--which you do often, especially when you are saying that people _*should*_ follow your medical advice.

You have also said, "over 96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend people get vaccinated as soon as possible" based on an American demographical, potentially curated, survey (if I ask someone who has been vaccinated because they were compelled to be vaccinated by their places of employment--I suppose the answer should be at least 96% yes).  Different demographics show vastly different results in similar surveys, just for America--so how would you apply this metric to a global scale where there are entire countries that are skeptical?

"96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated."

Where in your marketing "survey" does it say that those doctors recommend getting the vaccine?


----------



## WG481 (Jul 8, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The answers to both questions are outside of the scope of your domain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Leave this forum. Just leave it.

The CDC has *very much so exercised the fact that the vaccine doesn't hurt you.* Have you bothered to ask questions to your doctor, read the CDC reports, or even exist in functioning society?

Quit referring to it as a concoction. It's a scientifically proven mixture of ingredients like a fecking cake or some shet that make it a thing that works. All evidence does say it's safe, and it will kill you slower than the following:
 - Existing
 - Breathing oxygen
 - Consuming McDonalds
 - Eating
 - Moderate to severe plaque psoriasis
 - Using GBATemp

So far, nobody here who is both educated and got the vaccine has reported the following:
 - Dying
 - Severe reactions
 - Anything other than the normal side effects

As you can see, here are some sources proving the vaccine is safe:
 - The National Center for Disease Control featuring elected officials meant to prevent the spread of viruses such as Zeka, Flu, Bubonic Plague, and idiocy.
 - Every doctor you ask
 - Lacius
 - Knowledgeable news sources who cite their information

*Quit trying to win a battle you have already lost. You're like the Germans with both World Wars: destined for failure. *


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Leave this forum. Just leave it.
> 
> The CDC has *very much so exercised the fact that the vaccine doesn't hurt you. *



Not an anti-vaxxor, just someone interest in statistics and science. The vaccine is, statistically, much safer than catching COVID. The blanket statement that the vaccine doesn't hurt you is not correct. It's like saying COVID kills 1 in 100 people. It can be mostly true without being actually true.

Statistically, the vaccine doesn't hurt you.
The CDC has confirmed cases of myocarditis linked to the vaccine.
*The CDC has very much so exercised the fact that the vaccine probably won't hurt you.*

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/25/health/fda-covid-vaccine-heart-warning/index.html

'Earlier this week, vaccine advisers to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention heard that the agency had received about 1,200 reports of such heart inflammation after 300 million doses of the two vaccines had been given. CDC has confirmed about 300 of those cases, many of them among young men and adolescents.'

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



WG481 said:


> As you can see, here are some sources proving the vaccine is safe:
> 
> 
> *Quit trying to win a battle you have already lost. You're like the Germans with both World Wars: destined for failure. *



1. You can't prove anything in science.

2. Based on the German's influence on EU politics and monetary policy, I think you can argue that they eventually won both world wars.


----------



## ChaoticCinnabon (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Another educated person! Pfizer, Moderna, or J&J?
> 
> If you're still hung up on 5G towers, (those of you Karens out there, not ChaoticCinnabon) you have to be joking. You get a higher background dose of radiation from your microwave than a 5G tower. The *literal sun* gives you more radiation than a 5G tower. Comparing it to chernobyl or whatever is 100% Bona Fide Idiocy featuring Hints of Shet-Brain.
> 
> The vaccines have increased my physical (and mental for that matter, because I can talk to people now) health to a point where I am immune/protected against most diseases. I have never had a bad strain of the flu, I haven't gotten Tetanus from getting cut, and COVID fears me. People need to go back to Fourth Grade Health where your teacher explains how vaccines are like force-fields and you get a Hello Kitty sticker at the end.



Pfizer. and yeah, man people do need to smarten up


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Not an anti-vaxxor, just someone interest in statistics and science. The vaccine is, statistically, much safer than catching COVID. The blanket statement that the vaccine doesn't hurt you is not correct. It's like saying COVID kills 1 in 100 people. It can be mostly true without being actually true.
> 
> Statistically, the vaccine doesn't hurt you.
> The CDC has confirmed cases of myocarditis linked to the vaccine.
> ...


Oh my gosh, did you just say you can’t prove anything with science? Instant invalidation. You have to be dumping a metric cuboid of crap if you say that.

No, they still lost the wars. Meet the UN. They set tighter regulations on Germany because of WWI and WWII.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The answers to both questions are outside of the scope of your domain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If not getting vaccinated makes it significantly more likely that you will contract COVID-19 and spread it to others, that means not getting the vaccine negatively affects you and those around you.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ChaoticCinnabon said:


> Pfizer. and yeah, man people do need to smarten up


The cool kids get Pfizer.


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Oh my gosh, did you just say you can’t prove anything with science? Instant invalidation. You have to be dumping a metric cuboid of crap if you say that.
> 
> No, they still lost the wars. Meet the UN. They set tighter regulations on Germany because of WWI and WWII.



Holy shit dude. The idea that you can't prove anything with science is the whole basis behind fucking science.
The fact that you disagree is actually instantly invalidates your opinion. How can you keep jerking off to science in this thread when it's now painfully clear that you don't know the first fucking thing about scientific thought?

Are you like a high schooler or something? I can't believe any adult with any science background would say you can prove things with science.

Honestly, saying you can prove things with science is almost as dumb as saying vaccines are dangerous.

In 5 years when you finally get to college, ask your biology professor about proving things with science. I can 100% guarantee that they will agree with me. 

You are a child.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 9, 2021)

Snip


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Holy shit dude. The idea that you can't prove anything with science is the whole basis behind fucking science.
> The fact that you disagree is actually instantly invalidates your opinion. How can you keep jerking off to science in this thread when it's now painfully clear that you don't know the first fucking thing about scientific thought?
> 
> Are you like a high schooler or something? I can't believe any adult with any science background would say you can prove things with science.
> ...


I would like to point out that I have spoken with some scientists on the matter…

They disagree. As you can see, this is no longer a point of age. Thank you for reminding me of my pubescence you buffoon.

Can you disprove E=mc^2? Nope. Because Einstein proved it with none other than God’s greatest gift: science.

As you can see, Age /= smarts. Please go back to whatever corner of the internet you came from.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> I would like to point out that I have spoken with some scientists on the matter…
> 
> They disagree. As you can see, this is no longer a point of age. Thank you for reminding me of my pubescence you buffoon.
> 
> ...


Proof is a mathematical concept. You can prove answers to equations. Equations like E=mc'2 is mathematical and you can prove the answer to it. You can't prove stuff in science. There is always uncertainty. You can only provide evidence.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> So far, nobody here who is both educated and got the vaccine has reported the following:
> - Dying



Brilliant.



Lacius said:


> If not getting vaccinated makes it significantly more likely that you will contract COVID-19 and spread it to others, that means not getting the vaccine negatively affects you and those around you.



Getting the vaccine may help reduce contraction.  Not getting the vaccine doesn't increase likelihood.  It is either an improvement or no effect.  Way to quote the CDC on your propagandic lingo!(not.)


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Been close to a month since I've gotten my second shot and I am doing just fine. The only problem I had was a bit of fever after the second shot and I was able to nap that off. I really wish people would stop being stupid about the vaccine and just get them already. There isn't a real debate about the safety around them as the ones opposing them are just making shit up to scare themselves and others. Thus far, the only sources out there claiming that vaccines are harmful haven't actually been from actual medical professionals, outside of maybe quake "professional" like a chiropractor or some other pseudoscience practice.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Brilliant.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting the vaccine may help reduce contraction.  Not getting the vaccine doesn't increase likelihood.  It is either an improvement or no effect.  Way to quote the CDC on your propagandic lingo!(not.)


Not getting the vaccine hurts you relative to getting the vaccine. Please don't be disingenuous and argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

If you don't get vaccinated, you are putting at risk your health and the health of the people around you. This is a demonstrable fact.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Brilliant.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting the vaccine may help reduce contraction.  Not getting the vaccine doesn't increase likelihood.  It is either an improvement or no effect.  Way to quote the CDC on your propagandic lingo!(not.)


Getting the vaccine provides multiple times more immunity. If you don't have the vaccine you are more likely to get COVID (especially the Delta variant). You brought nothing to the argument.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Not getting the vaccine hurts you relative to getting the vaccine. Please don't be disingenuous and argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.
> 
> If you don't get vaccinated, you are putting at risk your health and the health of the people around you. This is a demonstrable fact.



Please don't be disingenuous and assume getting the vaccine is the default option when choosing whether or not to get the vaccine. Quote the CDC please.  What you are saying is literal propaganda.


----------



## Iamapirate (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You are not legally responsible for the health of others around you, but you have a moral imperative to get vaccinated and protect those around you. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be much safer than the risks associated with contracting COVID-19, so it's also a win-win for you.
> 
> The virus disproportionately affects the elderly and people with other conditions, but that doesn't mean you are immune to serious symptoms from the virus. You can be young and healthy and die from the disease, and you don't know if you're going to be lucky or unlucky. If, rightly, you want to make an informed decision based on the odds, the vaccine comes with risks far less likely than the risks associated with COVID-19, regardless of your age and health.
> 
> ...


I'm simply unconvinced that the odds of a serious case of covid are high enough to warrant another potential risk factor in the vaccine.


----------



## LostRabbit (Jul 9, 2021)

ChaoticCinnabon said:


> Got my second dose yesterday, feeling good. [...]
> 
> I have literally seen people make these claims and it taught me, vaccines can sure as hell keep us immune or at least protected from disease, but not stupidity.





LostRabbit said:


> [...] most people annoy me so much with their idiotic behavior. COVID-19 made all of that a whole lot worse.
> 
> We are all in this together. While most of the people do what they can, sacrifice a lot of their "freedom", keep distance, wash their darn hands and nowadays try to *get vaccinated*.. there are a few people who ruin the whole thing for *everyone*.
> 
> If you wanna believe in whatever strange theory or don't want to take any kind of risk.. stay at home, lock yourself away somehow but stop spreading this sht





linuxares said:


> [...] all freedom comes with a cost. They will most likely be barred from airplanes for a considerable time forward that haven't gotten vaccinated. I feel it's my duty as a citizen to protect my fellow people and especially those who can't get the vaccines because of allergies. These fuckwats haven't been alive when the measles, mupps, polio etc. was common place. If they were, they wouldn't be anti-vaxx.





Lilith Valentine said:


> Been close to a month since I've gotten my second shot and I am doing just fine. The only problem I had was a bit of fever after the second shot and I was able to nap that off. I really wish people would stop being stupid about the vaccine and just get them already. There isn't a real debate about the safety around them as the ones opposing them are just making shit up to scare themselves and others. Thus far, the only sources out there claiming that vaccines are harmful haven't actually been from actual medical professionals, outside of maybe quake "professional" like a chiropractor or some other pseudoscience practice.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

LostRabbit said:


>


Ya picture broke, you can actually upload pictures directly to your post by using the "Upload a File" button next to the "Post Reply"


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

LostRabbit said:


> View attachment 269566


I am not sure I understand, ngl.


----------



## LostRabbit (Jul 9, 2021)

Thanks for your hint. Well, i was actually trying to be funny, sorry bout that^^



Lilith Valentine said:


> I am not sure I understand, ngl.



Thats Alan Harper (two and a half men), who IS a chiropractor. He usually tells everyone that he was "a doctor!!"


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

LostRabbit said:


> Thanks for your hint. Well, i was actually trying to be funny, sorry bout that^^
> 
> 
> 
> Thats Alan Harper (two and a half men), who IS a chiropractor. He usually tells everyone that he was "a doctor!!"


Ohh~ that makes sense now, lol. Also, I am always up for helping people out ^-^


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Please don't be disingenuous and assume getting the vaccine is the default option when choosing whether or not to get the vaccine. Quote the CDC please.  What you are saying is literal propaganda.





Iamapirate said:


> I'm simply unconvinced that the odds of a serious case of covid are high enough to warrant another potential risk factor in the vaccine.


Regardless of your age group, health, etc., the risk of contracting COVID-19 and experiencing severe symptoms is far higher than the risk of any severe side effects associated with the vaccines. You're also significantly more likely to spread the disease to other people who are more likely to die from the disease if you are unvaccinated. This isn't complicated.

If you want to make it complicated, here:

On average, a person has a 1 in 100 chance of dying if they contract COVID-19.
A person has a roughly 1 in 332 million chance of dying from a COVID-19 vaccination in the USA (it's probably less than that, given the current J&J clot mitigations, etc.)
That means a person is literally 3,320,000 times more likely to die from COVID-19 unvaccinated than they are likely to die from the vaccine.
Even if you're under 35 and healthy (with a 1 in 25,000 chance of dying from the disease), you're 13,280 times more likely to die from the virus than from the vaccination.
These numbers are only about deaths, and they don't even include odds of experiencing severe symptoms from the disease or odds of spreading the disease.

Follow the CDC recommendations and get vaccinated if you can. It's in your best interest, it's in the best interest of those around you, and you have a moral imperative to do so. Not getting vaccinated is as selfish as it is stupid, and I say that because getting vaccinated is actually the selfish thing to do as well as the selfless thing to do. It's a win-win.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> you have a moral imperative to do so. Not getting vaccinated is as selfish as it is stupid



More propaganda.  False dilemma.

Why don't you admit that you are trying to sell the vaccine because your frail and fearful existence is entrapped by it?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> More propaganda.  False dilemma.
> 
> Why don't you admit that you are trying to sell the vaccine because your frail and fearful existence is entrapped by it?


Nothing I said about the vaccines is untrue. It isn't a false dilemma, and it isn't propaganda. If you willfully choose not to get the vaccine by ignoring the science, ignoring the medical professionals, and ignoring the facts, then you are putting yourself and the people around at a significantly increased risk for COVID-19 and serious symptoms. I am sorry if that's inconvenient for you.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Nothing I said about the vaccines is untrue. It isn't a false dilemma, and it isn't propaganda. If you willfully choose not to get the vaccine by ignoring the science, ignoring the medical professionals, and ignoring the facts, then you are putting yourself and the people around at a significantly increased risk for COVID-19 and serious symptoms. I am sorry if that's inconvenient for you.



I've already listed the points that you have misconstrued surveys to imply false statistics on multiple fronts.  I have pointed out that your claims that "all evidence shows the vaccine to be safe" is plainly false.  Nobody is ignoring anybody/anything here, with the exception of you ignoring the points where you were plainly pointed to being wrong; perpetuating false facts.

You saying choose the vaccine or you are choosing to put everybody at risk is textbook case of false dilemma.

Shut up Lacius.

This whole,"if you disagree with Lacius, you are ignoring science" thing is absurd.



Lacius said:


> I am sorry if that's inconvenient for you.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I've already listed the points that you have misconstrued surveys to imply false statistics on multiple fronts.  I have pointed out that your claims that "all evidence shows the vaccine to be safe" is plainly false.  Nobody is ignoring anybody/anything here, with the exception of you ignoring the points where you were plainly pointed to being wrong; perpetuating false facts.
> 
> You saying choose the vaccine or you are choosing to put everybody at risk is textbook case of false dilemma.
> 
> ...


I haven't misconstrued anything. You don't get to make up your own facts.

I never said, "If you disagree with me, you are ignoring science." I acknowledged, demonstrably, that you're ignoring the science.

The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you don't get it, you are putting yourself and others at risk. Those are facts. If you want to argue otherwise, provide evidence.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I haven't misconstrued anything. You don't get to make up your own facts.



You have.  What "facts" have I made up?

Brief list of things you have misconstrued:




Lacius said:


> AMA study (it's a PDF): https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf
> 96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated.



Specific demographic--likely coerced, and excludes the rest of reality, *no recommendation*.

Then we have you disregarding survey results based on political affiliation.  ("Science"!)

Then we have you saying that safe doesn't mean 100% safe.  (Introduce arbitrary metrics).  Ignore the side effects and call it safe.

Then we have you assuming that someone not getting the vaccine (not investing) as being negatively impacted.  "Come'on man".  You were negatively affected by not investing in bitcoin.

Then you want to push this "you have 1 in 100 chance of dying" narrative that literally doesn't apply to anybody who has posted here.



Lacius said:


> I never said, "If you disagree with me, you are ignoring science." I acknowledged, demonstrably, that you're ignoring the science.



You are saying it every time when someone disagrees with you and you say they are ignoring science.  It's a low effort, unsubstantiated, quip.



Lacius said:


> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you don't get it, you are putting yourself and others at risk. Those are facts. If you want to argue otherwise, provide evidence.



Wrong.  False dilemma--classic propaganda.  (Japan)


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You have.  What "facts" have I made up?
> 
> Brief list of things you have misconstrued:
> 
> ...


The claim that the doctor survey that showed 96% of doctors getting and recommending the vaccine was likely "coerced" is a made-up fact. I didn't have to go far at all to find this.

The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you don't get vaccinated, you are putting yourself and the people around you at risk.

The 1 in 100 chance of dying from COVID-19 is accurate, and I've acknowledged those odds vary when you break it down by age. In fact, the last time I brought up those odds, I also used the odds of dying if you're under 35.

The fact that I've sometimes responded to people disagreeing with me in this thread by saying they're denying science does not mean I'm arguing a disagreement with me is automatically a denial of science. It means, in that specific example where I said it, they are denying science. If a person denies the vaccine is safe, effective, and recommended, that person is demonstrably denying science. If a person denies that not getting vaccinated puts that person and the people around them at a significantly increased risk of infection, sickness, and/or death, that person is demonstrably denying science. This is not a false dilemma. A false dilemma requires there are more than two options, or more options than are presented, but the only two options are "get vaccinated" and "don't get vaccinated." Oof.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The claim that the doctor survey that showed 96% of doctors getting and recommending the vaccine was likely "coerced" is a made-up fact. I didn't have to go far at all to find this.
> 
> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you don't get vaccinated, you are putting yourself and the people around you at risk.
> 
> ...







Lacius said:


> The claim that the doctor survey that showed 96% of doctors getting and recommending the vaccine was likely "coerced" is a made-up fact. I didn't have to go far at all to find this.



Point out the "doctors recommend" part.  It doesn't exist.  Fake information.



Lacius said:


> The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you don't get vaccinated, you are putting yourself and the people around you at risk.



Propaganda.  Not only is it just propaganda, but you made the effort to ignore the point I made. That's deplorable.  



Lacius said:


> The fact that I've sometimes responded to people disagreeing with me in this thread by saying they're denying science does not mean I'm arguing a disagreement with me is automatically a denial of science. It means, in that specific example where I said it,



It's a habit.  In my case, I have not denied science in any part of our conversation, yet you still do it.

The vaccine being _relatively _safe and _recommended  _by specific institutions is not something that I am denying.


----------



## Tri-Z (Jul 9, 2021)

My brother had gotten the vaccine and he recently just got covid. He works in restaurant business, so comes in contact with many different people daily.  He’s better now and tested negative. Not sure which vaccine he had gotten though


----------



## AkGBA (Jul 9, 2021)

Can happen. Protection isn't 100%, same as many vaccines.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Point out the "doctors recommend" part.  It doesn't exist.  Fake information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you deny the vaccine is relatively safe? (It sounds like the answer is "yes," which is a step in the right direction).
Do you deny that the risks of long-term effects associated with the COVID-19 vaccines are highly unlikely?
Do you deny that the risks of long-term effects associated with COVID-19 are substantially higher than any long-term risks associated with the vaccines?
Do you deny that the serious risks associated with COVID-19 vaccination are thousands to millions of times less likely, depending on your age, than the risks associated with not get vaccinated?
Do you deny that the vaccine is effective?
Do you deny that the vaccine is recommended by every reputable medical group?
Do you deny that not getting vaccinated puts a person at a dramatically increased risk of COVID-19 infection and death vs. getting vaccinated?
Do you deny that not getting vaccinated puts the people around you at a dramatically increased risk of COVID-19 infection and death vs. getting vaccinated?
Do you deny that COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations are increasing dramatically in places with low vaccination rates?
If your answer to a question doesn't at least include a yes or no, I probably won't read it. If your answer is "no" to any of these questions, you are objectively and demonstrably denying the science.



Tri-Z said:


> My brother had gotten the vaccine and he recently just got covid. He works in restaurant business, so comes in contact with many different people daily.  He’s better now and tested negative. Not sure which vaccine he had gotten though


Contracting COVID-19 after being vaccinated is rare, but it does happen. The vaccines are not 100% effective. It could also be he contracted COVID-19 just before or after the shot, without the vaccine having had time to become fully effective yet.

The odds of contracting COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated increase if you're interacting with unvaccinated people regularly (teachers, restaurant workers, other essential workers, etc.). This is one of the many reasons why everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated as soon as possible. Infections and deaths, while rare, have happened to people who are fully vaccinated, and they likely caught it from people who were unvaccinated. The more people who are vaccinated, the less likely any specific person will even be exposed to the virus.

There are people who cannot get vaccinated (young children and people with specific medical issues). That's another reason why it's important for everyone who can get vaccinated to get vaccinated: in order to protect those who can't.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Isn't it time for this cult mind control to be over? people, have you gotten it out of your system? Or still blindfolds on?


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

I would like to point out to everyone that most countries are currently only allowing people in with proof of vaccination and a COVID test on-site. The vaccine is an international thing, and I doubt other countries with definitely better governments have as many conspiracies as us. Look at New Zealand's COVID effort. They locked everyone in their house until they got over it. 



Chrisssj2 said:


> Isn't it time for this cult mind control to be over? people, have you gotten it out of your system? Or still blindfolds on?


Shut up.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> I would like to point out to everyone that most countries are currently only allowing people in with proof of vaccination and a COVID test on-site. The vaccine is an international thing, and I doubt other countries with definitely better governments have as many conspiracies as us. Look at New Zealand's COVID effort. They locked everyone in their house until they got over it.
> 
> 
> Shut up.


Trauma based mind control. Where the government positions itself as saviour.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Isn't it time for this cult mind control to be over? people, have you gotten it out of your system? Or still blindfolds on?


The only "cult" I'm aware of is the cult of the former president. It takes blind ideology and dogma to flatly deny science.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The only "cult" I'm aware of is the cult of the former president. It takes blind ideology and dogma to flatly deny science.


Covid-19 pandemic is Fake science. Which is not the same as to deny real science.


----------



## realtimesave (Jul 9, 2021)

I got the stupid vaccine.  Got baited by the government for $50 which isn't a lot, they never sent me anything at all.  I also threw up at a job site.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Trauma based mind control. Where the government positions itself as saviour.


Once again, you are incorrect. This is yet another conspiracy. Can you prove it? Do you have a verifiable source that meets even Wikipedia standards? No, I don't think you do.

The whole purpose of the United States government is to be transparent as possible. The same reason why we can replace everyone in power and look through every public record. Certain things that fall under the protection of National Security will not be disclosed with anyone except those in higher power.

The government is certainly not positioning itself as the savior. In the Donald Trump term, he actually made me think of the government as the limiter because he was doing virtually nothing. It was the mandates brought in by Biden that have helped strengthen us against COVID.

Seriously mate, get your facts right.




Chrisssj2 said:


> Covid-19 pandemic is Fake science. Which is not the same as to deny real science.


You just said *that?!* To a group of people with years of science behind it proving you are completely and utterly blasphemous, you chose to say *that?* Oh, dear heavens, I would unwatch this thread very fast if I were you because you are about to have factual terror rained down upon you.



Lacius said:


> The only "cult" I'm aware of is the cult of the former president. It takes blind ideology and dogma to flatly deny science.


And that is the truth.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Once again, you are incorrect. This is yet another conspiracy. Can you prove it? Do you have a verifiable source that meets even Wikipedia standards? No, I don't think you do.
> 
> The whole purpose of the United States government is to be transparent as possible. The same reason why we can replace everyone in power and look through every public record. Certain things that fall under the protection of National Security will not be disclosed with anyone except those in higher power.
> 
> ...



You are turning it around. The Covid-19 "pandemic" hoax is unproven conspiracy that something invisible is out there to get us all.
Turning the regular citizen in a conspiracy theorist.
The point is there is no proof for it! The proof of burder lies there. And it has not been proven AT ALL.

Well I live in holland. I dont live in the US. But didn't the US have the same rules imposed and "solutions" as we do? Imposed by government. So not much difference there is there?

Yes I dare to go against the Covid cult and it's "truth ministry". With fake ass evidence. Not real science.

They are keeping you away from your fellow human and most people are too blind to see it.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Trauma based mind control. Where the government positions itself as saviour.





Chrisssj2 said:


> Covid-19 pandemic is Fake science. Which is not the same as to deny real science.


So all of the world’s governments are just in on some massive conspiracy? Got any sources?


Chrisssj2 said:


> You are turning it around. The Covid-19 "pandemic" hoax is unproven conspiracy that something invisible is out there to get us all.
> Turning the regular citizen in a conspiracy theorist.
> The point is there is no proof for it! The proof of burder lies there. And it has not been proven AT ALL.
> 
> ...


So the entire world just played along in a massive conspiracy? What sources do you have?


----------



## PityOnU (Jul 9, 2021)

Please just get the jab, everyone. It's easy and free.

If you're not afraid of COVID, then you definitely shouldn't be afraid of the vaccine - wayyyyyy lower mortality rate on the latter. You are strong! You can do it!

I can understand if you feel this is government overreach, but please also try to be pragmatic about this. Feel free to fight for your principles once we're all back to work.

Thank you!


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> You are turning it around. The Covid-19 "pandemic" hoax is unproven conspiracy that something invisible is out there to get us all.
> Turning the regular citizen in a conspiracy theorist.
> The point is there is no proof for it! The proof of burder lies there. And it has not been proven AT ALL.
> 
> ...


No, it's real. You know how I know? I've had family members hospitalized because of COVID. You can literally suck it if you're saying it's fake. It's spread throughout my family, hospitalized some of them, yet you still insist on saying it's fake? Please refrain from these conspiracies you are spreading and find some actual research.



PityOnU said:


> Please just get the jab, everyone. It's easy and free.
> 
> If you're not afraid of COVID, then you definitely shouldn't be afraid of the vaccine - wayyyyyy lower mortality rate on the latter. You are strong! You can do it!
> 
> ...


Thank you sir/ma'am/mate. Logic has been brought back to the conversation.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> No, it's real. You know how I know? I've had family members hospitalized because of COVID. You can literally suck it if you're saying it's fake. It's spread throughout my family, hospitalized some of them, yet you still insist on saying it's fake? Please refrain from these conspiracies you are spreading and find some actual research.
> 
> 
> Thank you sir/ma'am/mate. Logic has been brought back to the conversation.


There is no reliable way of testing. So you can't know that.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> There is no way of knowing
> 
> There is no reliable way of testing. So you can't know that.


Outside of the reliable tests that have been getting better and better since implemented. What sources do you have for any of your claims? We are well over a year and a half of dealing with Covid, denial at this point is just stupid. The entire world hasn’t been faking a global pandemic for the last year and a half just so the government can create submissive people.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Outside of the reliable tests that have been getting better and better since implemented. What sources do you have for any of your claims? We are well over a year and a half of dealing with Covid, denial at this point is just stupid. The entire world hasn’t been faking a global pandemic for the last year and a half just so the government can create submissive people.


Calling something reliable. Doesn't make it reliable. Look up Kary mullis.
Actually that is exactly what has been going on, shockingly enough.


----------



## Deleted member 512337 (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Covid-19 pandemic is Fake science. Which is not the same as to deny real science.


The virus is so fake that I got it.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

ChicoPancho said:


> The virus is so fake that I got it.


So you have been told....


----------



## Deleted member 512337 (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> So you have been told....


"Nuh - Uh" back to you.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> There is no reliable way of testing. So you can't know that.


*No reliable way of testing? Have you heard of genetic testing, blood testing, antibody testing, and chemical testing? These reveal significant amount of information which I will include as reliable, since I doubt you've made a significant medical advancement.* 

Are you actually kidding me here? No "reliable" way of testing? The amount of brain cells you have is equal to below room temperature if you're saying that.
Is there no reliable way of testing you got strep? How do you know it's not a cold? Because they swab your mouth and pick up traces of that virus, which are revealed with a chemical test.* The COVID test works in a similar way.* Since it is a vascular virus, they can find traces of it in your nasal cavity (which, if you weren't aware, moves oxygen and carbon dioxide) where it bonds with mucus. Then, they use chemical testing to find that someone has COVID. This is fully reliable, and I trust it 100%. Once again, please stop claiming this is a fake virus. Go back to fifth grade where you learn about *basic medicinal practices*, then we can talk.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Covid-19 pandemic is Fake science. Which is not the same as to deny real science.


The COVID-19 pandemic is not "fake science." COVID-19 is a very real disease, and millions of people worldwide have died from it, including two of my relatives.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Calling something reliable. Doesn't make it reliable. Look up Kary mullis.
> Actually that is exactly what has been going on, shockingly enough.


So you don’t have any sources, you are just some nut job that should be ignored.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> So you don’t have any sources, you are just some nut job that should be ignored.
> View attachment 269599


If that makes you sleep better at night. I have absorbed an agglomeration of sources. Like I said start look up Kary Mullis and use your brain.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Calling something reliable. Doesn't make it reliable. Look up Kary mullis.
> Actually that is exactly what has been going on, shockingly enough.





Chrisssj2 said:


> If that makes you sleep better at night. I have absorbed an agglomeration of sources. Like I said start look up Kary Mullis and use your brain.


Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Double post. Site is lagging.


----------



## kevin corms (Jul 9, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The only "cult" I'm aware of is the cult of the former president. It takes blind ideology and dogma to flatly deny science.


Both sides deny science whenever it suits them, and science isn't the talking head on your fav cable news channel...

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


If you are talking about science, the way it works is that someone comes up with a theory and then they test it out to see what is true. Tribal folk from all walks of life cant grasp this at all.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> If that makes you sleep better at night. I have absorbed an agglomeration of sources. Like I said start look up Kary Mullis and use your brain.


Then post them, post the sources. Shifting the responsibility isn’t going to accomplish anything other than revealing that you don’t have any reliable sources.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> If that makes you sleep better at night. I have absorbed an agglomeration of sources. Like I said start look up Kary Mullis and use your brain.


Sir, you may not brain shame when you have yet to prove you possess one.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

kevin corms said:


> Both sides deny science whenever it suits them, and science isn't the talking head on your fav cable news channel...
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


There isn’t a “both sides,” this has been between people who are listening to professionals and people who believe conspiracies without creditable sources.


Chrisssj2 said:


> Calling something reliable. Doesn't make it reliable. Look up Kary mullis.
> Actually that is exactly what has been going on, shockingly enough.


Decided to entertain you and found out that he’s being misquoted by idiots online
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN24420X


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> There isn’t a “both sides” this is between people who are listening to professionals and people who believe conspiracies without creditable sources.
> 
> Decided to entertain you and found out that he’s being misquoted by idiots online
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN24420X


Reuters totally unreliable..Who fact checks the fact checkers.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Reuters totally unreliable..Who fact checks the fact checkers.


https://fullfact.org/online/pcr-test-mullis/
https://www.thejournal.ie/kary-mullis-pcr-testing-factcheck-debunk-hse-5271830-Nov2020/?amp=1
https://www.aap.com.au/pcr-inventor...y-his-test-wont-work-for-covid-19-infections/
That’s just some of the results from Googling and no results backing up the false claim. Please provide a source to back your claims, I did my part and actually googled him.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2021)

kevin corms said:


> Both sides deny science whenever it suits them, and science isn't the talking head on your fav cable news channel...
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Not exactly. Scientists come up with a hypothesis, test it, and if it's well-established to be true, it becomes a scientific theory/fact.

Please give me a specific example of "my side" denying science. I am a skeptic first and foremost, and I don't deny science.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> https://fullfact.org/online/pcr-test-mullis/
> https://www.thejournal.ie/kary-mullis-pcr-testing-factcheck-debunk-hse-5271830-Nov2020/?amp=1
> https://www.aap.com.au/pcr-inventor...y-his-test-wont-work-for-covid-19-infections/
> That’s just some of the results from Googling and no results backing up the false claim. Please provide a source to back your claims, I did my part and actually googled him.[/QUOTE


Instead of looking up these shady websites. Look up the actual source, and like I said use your brain.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> Instead of looking up these shady websites. Look up the actual source, and like I said use your brain.


Provide the sources or be dismissed, I did my end of the deal and looked him up. Either you have sources for your claims or your claims complete garbage and you should be disregarded.


----------



## Chrisssj2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Provide the sources or be dismissed, I did my end of the deal and looked him up. Either you have sources for your claims or your claims complete garbage and you should be disregarded.


I told you to look up kary mullis speaking yourself. Not "debunking' websites.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

Chrisssj2 said:


> I told you to look up kary mullis speaking yourself. Not "debunking' websites.


I did, why can’t you provide you own sources? I showed proof of me doing as you requested, why can’t you do the same?


----------



## cearp (Jul 9, 2021)

@Lacius I don't mind you giving me some medical advice!
I get carsick when I read in the car, what can I do?


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2021)

cearp said:


> @Lacius I don't mind you giving me some medical advice!
> I get carsick when I read in the car, what can I do?


Have you tried not doing that? Just tell motion sickness to stop. I don’t know how human biology works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

cearp said:


> @Lacius I don't mind you giving me some medical advice!
> I get carsick when I read in the car, what can I do?


Don't read in the car.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Please give me a specific example of "my side" denying science.



I've already provided a few.

The false dilemma of "take the shot or you are killing people" is still utter shit btw.


----------



## JonhathonBaxster (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I've already provided a few.
> 
> The false dilemma of "take the shot or you are killing people" is still utter shit btw.



The survival rate before the vaccine was overall between everyone sitting at 99.8%. I wonder what it is now that the vaccine has been released. This not-so-deadly illness was used as a tactic for mass control and look how easily people allowed themselves to be sheep. It's sad really.


----------



## kevin corms (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Not exactly. Scientists come up with a hypothesis, test it, and if it's well-established to be true, it becomes a scientific theory/fact.
> 
> Please give me a specific example of "my side" denying science. I am a skeptic first and foremost, and I don't deny science.


GMOs, nuclear power, male-female differences and normally anti vaccine folks are left wing. Its all related to confirmation bias, people just deny what they don't want to be true. You also have to remember a large portion of social scientists are self proclaimed Marxists, Marxist theories are often easy to spot because they read more like parables from the bible than an actual scientific study. It's actually scary how mainstream anti science from the left is, you cant even question their theories without being attacked.

I also want to note that mainstream media only pretends to be left wing, they only look that way compared to lets say Newsmax or Fox News. They love this illusion, then you can't go further left then they are without being crazy (this is also why they like to focus on social issues their sponsors don't actually care about).


----------



## linuxares (Jul 10, 2021)

How people that don't wanna take the vaccine thinks?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 10, 2021)

Government: ~_Swiggity Swooty I'm coming for that possibly unvaccinated booty. On my way to steal your freedoms~_


----------



## SG854 (Jul 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Government: ~_Swiggity Swooty I'm coming for that possibly unvaccinated booty. On my way to steal your freedoms~_



Gov still does whatever they want regardless if you give them power or not


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I've already provided a few.
> 
> The false dilemma of "take the shot or you are killing people" is still utter shit btw.


If you don't take the shot, you are dramatically increasing the odds of contracting the virus and spreading it to others. If you're spreading it to others, you are in fact potentially causing people to get sick and die. Those are facts.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



kevin corms said:


> GMOs, nuclear power, male-female differences and normally anti vaccine folks are left wing. Its all related to confirmation bias, people just deny what they don't want to be true. You also have to remember a large portion of social scientists are self proclaimed Marxists, Marxist theories are often easy to spot because they read more like parables from the bible than an actual scientific study. It's actually scary how mainstream anti science from the left is, you cant even question their theories without being attacked.
> 
> I also want to note that mainstream media only pretends to be left wing, they only look that way compared to lets say Newsmax or Fox News. They love this illusion, then you can't go further left then they are without being crazy (this is also why they like to focus on social issues their sponsors don't actually care about).


COVID-19 anti-vaxxers are disproportionately right-wing.

Please give me an example where I have denied science.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you don't take the shot, you are dramatically increasing the odds of contracting the virus and spreading it to others



This is a fake fact.  Not taking the shot doesn't increase odds.  This false logic is the crux of your false dilemma of "take the shot or you are killing people", which is utter shit.

Not investing in Gamestop made me poor.  

I mean... I mean... relatively.  Please don't be so disingenuous and argue for the sake of arguing.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> This is a fake fact.  Not taking the shot doesn't increase odds.  This false logic is the crux of your false dilemma of "take the shot or you are killing people", which is utter shit.
> 
> Not investing in Gamestop made me poor.
> 
> I mean... I mean... relatively.  Please don't be so disingenuous and argue for the sake of arguing.


Your odds of contracting the disease, getting seriously ill from the disease, and spreading the disease are significantly higher if you don't get vaccinated. This is a fact.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Your odds of contracting the disease, getting seriously ill from the disease, and spreading the disease are significantly higher if you don't get vaccinated. This is a fact.



Humor me and quote the CDC on that.  I'd like to see the source of your fact without the Lacius filter.  For science.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Humor me and quote the CDC on that.  I'd like to see the source of your fact without the Lacius filter.  For science.


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html

COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective at preventing COVID-19 disease, especially severe illness and death.
COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html
> 
> COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective at preventing COVID-19 disease, especially severe illness and death.
> COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of people spreading the virus that causes COVID-19.



Okay, so you can't.  Just say so.

Your odds of contracting the disease, getting seriously ill from the disease, and spreading the disease are significantly higher if you don't get vaccinated drown in a pool. This is a fact.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Okay, so you can't.  Just say so.
> 
> Your odds of contracting the disease, getting seriously ill from the disease, and spreading the disease are significantly higher if you don't get vaccinated drown in a pool. This is a fact.


We are talking about vaccination. Saying you can't get or spread the disease if you're not already alive contributes nothing of substance to the conversation.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We are talking about vaccination. Saying you can't get or spread the disease if you're not already alive contributes nothing of substance to the conversation.



I'm addressing your propagandizing and constant misapplication of  the word "fact" throughout this thread.  The point is that the vaccine isn't the only mitigating variable and you can replace "get the vaccine" with many different words to get many different humorous "facts".

Your false dilemma of "take the shot or you are killing people", is utter shit.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'm addressing your propagandizing and constant misapplication of  the word "fact" throughout this thread.  The point is that the vaccine isn't the only mitigating variable and you can replace "get the vaccine" with many different words to get many different humorous "facts".
> 
> Your false dilemma of "take the shot or you are killing people", is utter shit.


We are talking about the vaccine though, lol.


----------



## Nincompoopdo (Jul 10, 2021)

Can someone make a CFW for the vaccine? I want to customise the DNA modification codes, maybe it can also cure cancer.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We are talking about the vaccine though, lol.



You were talking about *not* taking the vaccine.  The source you linked to talked about taking the vaccine.

Your source:  Taking the Vaccine -> Mitigation

is not the same as

Your "fact":  No Taking the Vaccine -> No Mitigation






Here's a chart. (the left.)

Not taking the Vaccine makes mitigation or non-mitigation moot (undeterminable).


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You were talking about *not* taking the vaccine.  The source you linked to talked about taking the vaccine.
> 
> Your source:  Taking the Vaccine -> Mitigation
> 
> ...


The vaccine is the most effective way to reduce the chances of contracting and spreading the disease. If you do not get vaccinated, your odds of contracting and spreading the disease are significantly higher, regardless of other factors.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccine is the most effective way to reduce the chances of contracting and spreading the disease. If you do not get vaccinated, your odds of contracting and spreading the disease are significantly higher, regardless of other factors.



Your statement is obfuscation of the facts (source), not in support of them.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Your statement is obfuscation of the facts (source), not in support of them.


Go back to my post where I listed 9 scientific facts and tell me which ones you agree/disagree with.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 10, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Gov still does whatever they want regardless if you give them power or not


Yeah, but if the people would actually stand up to them like they should when they exert too much power when they forget they work for us, we wouldn't be in this situation. This is why the 2nd Amendment and other contingencies were made for.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 10, 2021)

kevin corms said:


> GMOs, nuclear power, male-female differences and normally anti vaccine folks are left wing. Its all related to confirmation bias, people just deny what they don't want to be true. You also have to remember a large portion of social scientists are self proclaimed Marxists, Marxist theories are often easy to spot because they read more like parables from the bible than an actual scientific study. It's actually scary how mainstream anti science from the left is, you cant even question their theories without being attacked.
> 
> I also want to note that mainstream media only pretends to be left wing, they only look that way compared to lets say Newsmax or Fox News. They love this illusion, then you can't go further left then they are without being crazy (this is also why they like to focus on social issues their sponsors don't actually care about).


I am starting to think you just repeat random stuff you’ve read about people on the Left.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Go back to my post where I listed 9 scientific facts and tell me which ones you agree/disagree with.



_*The vaccine is relatively safe.*_

I don't know.  The emergence of side effects _*exceeding *_their expectations throws this into question.  Without knowing the long-term outcome, I don't think "safe" is fully substantiated--which is why "relatively" is the operating word.


_*The risks of long-term effects associated with the COVID-19 vaccines are highly unlikely?*_

That's what the CDC claims, but we have not seen the long-term outcome.  


_*The risks of long-term effects associated with COVID-19 are substantially higher than any long-term risks associated with the vaccines.*_

The introduction of this point undermines the credibility of the previous point.  (implementation of an adjustable goalpost)


_*The serious risks associated with COVID-19 vaccination are thousands to millions of times less likely, depending on your age, than the risks associated with not get vaccinated.*_

We don't know all of the risks, but the validity of the statement is diminishing in trajectory.  (Over-promise, under-deliver)


*The vaccine is effective.*

It appears so, but also at the expense of unknowns.  The over-promise, under-deliver marketing seems to be operating here, too.  (Incoming "booster shots")


*The vaccine is recommended by every reputable medical group.*

Citation needed.  Bonus points if you could provide a citation for Japan.


_*Not getting vaccinated puts a person at a dramatically increased risk of COVID-19 infection and death vs. getting vaccinated.*_

Citation needed.  (I've already addressed the logical obfuscation in the "take the shot or you are killing people" false dilemma.)


*Not getting vaccinated puts the people around you at a dramatically increased risk of COVID-19 infection and death vs. getting vaccinated.*

See previous point.


_*COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations are increasing dramatically in places with low vaccination rates.*_

Citation needed.  Seems to support the notion that correlation is evidence of causation.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> _*The vaccine is relatively safe.*_
> 
> I don't know.  The emergence of side effects _*exceeding *_their expectations throws this into question.  Without knowing the long-term outcome, I don't think "safe" is fully substantiated--which is why "relatively" is the operating word.
> 
> ...


Yikes. You're engaging in a lot of science denial, and I've provided sources for most of these things already. The only one I haven't cited is the fact that COVID-19 cases are rising in areas with low vaccination rates, but I can provide that now.

https://news.yahoo.com/map-shows-almost-us-counties-120631278.html
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/07/09/almost-all-utah/
https://www.kmbc.com/article/study-...put-the-entire-united-states-at-risk/36972277
https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...entage-of-population-vaccinated-march-15.html
The science is clear: The vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended. Your odds of serious ailments are significantly higher if you aren't vaccinated, and your odds of spreading the disease are significantly higher if you aren't vaccinated. If you are going to argue against any of these points, and want a substantive response from me in the future, you are going to need to provide evidence.

People have a moral imperative to get vaccinated if they can, and it's also in their own best interest to get vaccinated.


----------



## stanna (Jul 10, 2021)

Hi, me the other half and 4 of are 6 kids have all got covid at the moment, let me tell you the kids have hardly known they have had it , snotty noses, high temps for a day, soar throats, still tear arsing around as usual, me and my missus have finished our quarantine more or less, we had same symptoms as the kids but it took a little longer to get over them, still feeling a bit tired.
We all usually get something very similar every year for at least the last 10 years, we also usually get the flu every year to and I can tell you coronavirus ain't a patch on the flu virus, non of us have been vaccinated for either and defo won't be doing in the future.
I think the media is terrifying everyone into getting this fake vaccine, they want it in you for some reason, time will tell why.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Yikes. You're engaging in a lot of science denial



No I'm not.



Lacius said:


> I've provided sources for most of these things already.



You've factually misrepresented sources and made claims that don't exist for points 6,7. and 8--which I have called out.

For 9.  Are you arguing correlation is evidence of causation?  Also, is your intended audience only Americans?

There is no consensus in science.  Science isn't a vote.  But here are some facts relevent to your propaganda.

Facts;

1.  Vaccines have been demonstrated to be unsafe:  https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data

2.  The risks of long-term effects associated with the COVID-19 vaccines are unknown.

3.  Unknown variables cannot be reliably compared/measured against each other.

4.  Unknown variables cannot be reliably compared/measured against each other.

5.  The vaccine's efficacy is estimated and being tried against in an on-going experiment.

6a.  A forum of physicians does not represent the values of the planet.

6b.  People taking a vaccine is not the same as recommending the vaccine.

7.  Not getting vaccinated does not increase your risk.

8.  Not getting vaccinated does not increase the risk of other people catching Covid-19.

9.  Correlation does not prove causation.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 10, 2021)

In other news, a mrna flu vaccine is being worked on. 



stanna said:


> Hi, me the other half and 4 of are 6 kids have all got covid at the moment, let me tell you the kids have hardly known they have had it , snotty noses, high temps for a day, soar throats, still tear arsing around as usual, me and my missus have finished our quarantine more or less, we had same symptoms as the kids but it took a little longer to get over them, still feeling a bit tired.
> We all usually get something very similar every year for at least the last 10 years, we also usually get the flu every year to and I can tell you coronavirus ain't a patch on the flu virus, non of us have been vaccinated for either and defo won't be doing in the future.
> I think the media is terrifying everyone into getting this fake vaccine, they want it in you for some reason, time will tell why.


"I'm fine, so let's just ignore everyone else that had it worse or even died from it."

So, at what point do you think a vaccine is real? Do you take any medicine at all?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> No I'm not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The vaccines have not been "demonstrated to be unsafe." You are hypocritically citing a website of alleged correlations that have not actually been corroborated. Oof. The website itself even states that it isn't meant to used in the way you're using it. "VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem, but is especially useful for detecting unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse event reporting that might indicate a possible safety problem with a vaccine."
https://www.openvaers.com/f-a-q

The long-term effects of the vaccines are highly unlikely, given what we know about the vaccines and how they work, and this is according to medical groups and the CDC. The long-term and/or serious effects associated with contracting COVID-19 are far more likely and serious. To suggest there are serious and/or long-term effects of the vaccines is as much unsubstantiated as it is fear-mongering, and we have evidence to the contrary.

If you don't get vaccinated, your odds of contracting the virus, suffering serious effects, and spreading it to others are indeed significantly higher than if you do get vaccinated. Please don't peddle anti-scientific bullshit and call it factual.

Tabzer, no matter how you try to cut things, we are always going to be left with the vaccines being thousands to millions of times safer than COVID-19 itself, and we have more than enough evidence to back that up. You've been told by virtually every medical group and agency that the vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended, and you know that you are putting other people, in addition to yourself, at increased risk by not being vaccinated. I do not expect you to get vaccinated, and I truly hope you don't end up like one of the thousands of people in the USA who are being hospitalized with COVID-19 and express regret they didn't get vaccinated (or worse, die from the disease). I also hope that if/when you contract COVID-19 that you don't spread the disease to other people. You seem to be putting the people around you at increased risk, but morally speaking, that isn't something a person can reasonably do. If even one person gets vaccinated after reading our posts, I'd consider that an effective use of my time, but I think everything you and I have had to say has been said, and this conversation has gone on long enough.

Most of your arguments could probably be applied to seatbelts ("They could kill you instead of save you. There are unknowns you don't know about. They can cause harm despite the odds of me being in a crash being low since I'm a good driver"), seatbelts have also been demonstrated to be safe, effective, and recommended (or required) regardless, and your arguments aren't particularly compelling.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines have not been "demonstrated to be unsafe." You are hypocritically citing a website of alleged correlations that have not actually been corroborated. Oof.



The correlations of many side effects that can happen have been corroborated by the CDC.  The VEARS suggests how prevalent they are.  I didn't mean to suggest that VEARS is reporting peer-reviewed deaths. You had mentioned that you are aware of side-effects already, so I saw it as complimentary.  Choosing to discard it so easily is kind of embarrassing.




Lacius said:


> The long-term effects of the vaccines are highly unlikely, given what we know about the vaccines and how they work, and this is according to medical groups and the CDC.



In Japan, we have a different understanding of those promises being made about vaccines and what has actually happened.  It is a big reason why the government isn't allowed to force people to become vaccinated anymore.  This is why I asked if you are talking to just Americans or a global audience when using a potentially curated marketing survey to falsely claim that 96% of doctor's have taken and recommend getting the vaccine.  You also fail to acknowledge that you made the "recommend" part up as it wasn't stated nor implied in the survey.

While you argue that it is immoral for people to not get the vaccine, I think it is immoral to pressure people to get the vaccine through subversive means, like propositioning that "you are killing people by not getting the vaccine" (you're not).  If you believe the institutions and businesses are being fully transparent and forward with all of the data and paid-for-"science", then it is good for your mind if you choose to get the vaccine.  That is your choice.  That is your protection.  If you are going to fear-monger, demonize, or demean others for not taking the vaccine, then you are being selfish.  You are telling people they should get the vaccine knowing that if they had serious side effects that you wouldn't be fully able to be accountable.


----------



## stanna (Jul 10, 2021)

All I'm saying is yes we are fine, it ain't fuck all, but the world is full of shit scared gullible people, I did my research, decided not to vaccinate and I was right, weak people are to easily led.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

stanna said:


> All I'm saying is yes we are fine, it ain't fuck all, but the world is full of shit scared gullible people, I did my research, decided not to vaccinate and I was right, weak people are to easily led.


The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and it is highly recommended that you get vaccinated as soon as possible. It significantly reduces your risks of contracting COVID-19, and it significantly reduces your risks of spreading COVID-19 to other people.

If you have any concerns about how the vaccine might affect you specifically, consult your doctor. Please follow the guidance of the CDC and every other medical organization. We are in this together.


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 10, 2021)

stanna said:


> All I'm saying is yes we are fine, it ain't fuck all, but the world is full of shit scared gullible people, *I did my research*, decided not to vaccinate and I was right, weak people are to easily led.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 10, 2021)

stanna said:


> All I'm saying is yes we are fine, it ain't fuck all, but the world is full of shit scared gullible people, I did my research, decided not to vaccinate and I was right, weak people are to easily led.


So what kind of research did you actually do? Did you read any papers published by medical professionals?



Chrisssj2 said:


> I told you to look up kary mullis speaking yourself. Not "debunking' websites.


I would still like to see your sources. You were very adamant that I was wrong and didn't do the right research, so I would be like to be corrected.


----------



## RaptorDMG (Jul 10, 2021)

I got symptoms of heart inflammation for 4 or 5 days after my first dose of pfizer so I won't be getting a second dose


----------



## Taleweaver (Jul 10, 2021)

Small heads up for those who care (not much I presume, but ey...at least it's on topic  )...

I got my second vaccination today! Yeeeeey! 

(it's moderna. Last time I had a sore arm for a couple days but that was it. As it stands, it kind of feels it'll be a repeat of that)


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

RaptorDMG said:


> I got symptoms of heart inflammation for 4 or 5 days after my first dose of pfizer so I won't be getting a second dose


Did you self-diagnose heart inflammation? Please see your doctor before foregoing your second dose. One dose is better than none, but for long-lasting and significantly increased protection against COVID-19, you need two doses of the mRNA vaccine.


----------



## RaptorDMG (Jul 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Did you self-diagnose heart inflammation? Please see your doctor before foregoing your second dose. One dose is better than none, but for long-lasting and significantly increased protection against COVID-19, you need two doses of the mRNA vaccine.


I told the NHS Inform people the symptoms over the phone and they thought it could be that and I'm planning on getting an appointment with my GP to make sure everythings better now.

Anyway I don't plan on having the second dose as it's apparently got a higher chance of causing this side effect.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

RaptorDMG said:


> I told the NHS Inform people the symptoms over the phone and they thought it could be that and I'm planning on getting an appointment with my GP to make sure everythings better now.
> 
> Anyway I don't plan on having the second dose as it's apparently got a higher chance of causing this side effect.


The odds of this kind of side effect are extremely rare, so when you see your doctor, you should ask what they recommend with regard to the second dose. I hope everything goes well. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 10, 2021)

If you can't/don't want to get the vaccine, at least be safe other ways. Just don't add conspiracy theories on top of that. (This isn't at a specific person.)


----------



## Lacius (Jul 10, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> If you can't/don't want to get the vaccine, at least be safe other ways. Just don't add conspiracy theories on top of that. (This isn't at a specific person.)


Yes, but just to be clear, everybody who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated as soon as possible. Being safe in other ways is not an excuse to not get vaccinated, and many of those who are choosing to not get the vaccine also aren't wearing masks, etc.


----------



## smf (Jul 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The correlations of many side effects that can happen have been corroborated by the CDC.



Side effects doesn't make them unsafe. I had pfizer, my arm hurt for a few days and my other health issues were made worse.

But I didn't die. If I caught covid, then I could die. There is more of a chance of dying from covid, than dying from the vaccine. Of course you could be the small number of people who dies because you had the vaccine, but you could equally (and importantly more likely) be one of the growing number of people who dies from covid.

It's clear that even with the vaccines that covid is not going anywhere, so hiding away from it and hoping you don't catch it is not a good solution either. covid deaths are around 1/10th of what they were at the peak & may never drop lower.



KingVamp said:


> If you can't/don't want to get the vaccine, at least be safe other ways. Just don't add conspiracy theories on top of that. (This isn't at a specific person.)



Anyone who truly thinks that covid vaccines makes them magnetic, turns them into a 5g antennae, contains a bill gates gps tracker or used to control the population, are certifiable who really ought to be committed to mental institutions. The people making the shit up are trolls and are trolling for lolz.

Obviously it's up to everybody what they put in their body, but you also shouldn't defer to crazy people and trolls for the decision either.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

smf said:


> Side effects doesn't make them unsafe.



It makes them unsafe for the people who are hurt by them.  If you believe the marketing and feel there is no reason to be reluctant, I won't blame you for that.  People have experienced failed guidance by doctor's and medical agencies and people have had bad side effects, so I think it should be understandable that there is a diversity of approach.

Don't make a religion out of it and misrepresent the scripture, condemning those who don't believe.


----------



## smf (Jul 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It makes them unsafe for the people who are hurt by them.



You can be hurt by everything. By your definition breathing or eating isn't safe.

200 people a year die in the us of food allergies.

_More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. *FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause.* Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem._

The problem is that people die anyway & a lot of people have been vaccinated. If 100% of the population were vaccinated then everyone who died ever would be reported to VAERS as having died after receiving the vaccine.

Ironically the people who don't understand this, are the same people who have been saying that people are dying with covid not of covid.

Putting it into perspective, 5946 deaths of vaccinated people between december 14 2020 & july 6 2021, while there were 3300 vaccinated people a day dying in january 2021.



tabzer said:


> If you believe the marketing and feel there is no reason to be reluctant, I won't blame you for that.  People have experienced failed guidance by doctor's and medical agencies and people have had bad side effects, so I think it should be understandable that there is a diversity of approach.



I don't think that it's good to live in fear because you think that history will repeat itself, that sounds like diagnosable anxiety.

There isn't much that can go wrong with the vaccine, certainly there is a greater chance you'll come to harm if you don't have it.

If everyone dies after being vaccinated then the majority are going to be anti-vaxers and they won't be able to cope with keeping society running.



tabzer said:


> Don't make a religion out of it and misrepresent the scripture, condemning those who don't believe.



I don't believe in organised religion, each religion has a set of writings that they claim really represent the word of god & say that all the other religions writings were made up by people and are not the word of god. Maybe they are all just made up by people.

I also don't listen to anti vax cults.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

smf said:


> breathing or eating isn't safe.



It isn't safe for the people that the activity hurts.  That's true.

Feeding someone who is allergic to peanut butter, food containing peanut butter, isn't necessarily intentionally harming them.  At least with awareness of peanut butter allergy, you can point out that the food contains peanut butter before offering.

For the vaccine.  All of the side effects, and their severity, are not known.  But they are known to exist.  The side effects associated with the vaccine are corroborated and continually updated on the CDC's website.  It is done out to insulate from liability.  It is the bare minimum and a result of the ongoing experiment.  To further downplay the side effects and overemphasize the "safety" is to compound the potential harm caused by side effects.  .



smf said:


> I don't think that it's good to live in fear because you think that history will repeat itself



Please explain how providing the understanding that different perspectives exist is a symptom of anxiety.



smf said:


> I don't believe in organised religion



I'm fairly certain that organized religion exists.



smf said:


> I also don't listen to anti vax cults.



I never suggested that you listened to anybody.


----------



## MMX (Jul 11, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> In other news, a mrna flu vaccine is being worked on.
> 
> 
> "I'm fine, so let's just ignore everyone else that had it worse or even died from it."



everyone else had it worse or died? any statistics you can link on that?


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

MMX said:


> everyone else had it worse or died? any statistics you can link on that?




Lacius apparently had it twice, and then got vaccinated.  I'm surprised he's still alive.  I know of someone who had died in the early phase of the pandemic, when hospitals employed ventilators in harmful ways.


----------



## kevin corms (Jul 11, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am starting to think you just repeat random stuff you’ve read about people on the Left.


Because you are tribal? Or because you don't pay attention? Mind you I'm not saying folks on the right don't deny science, but a lot of that comes from when science conflicts with religion or their jobs. People deny science when it conflicts with other strong beliefs they have, then they easily feed their confirmation bias to justify it.


----------



## weatMod (Jul 11, 2021)

smf said:


> You can be hurt by everything. By your definition breathing or eating isn't safe.
> 
> 200 people a year die in the us of food allergies.
> 
> ...


you do know that less than 1% of ADR's ever get reported right?
not just ones to VAERS
you also do know that there is organized and institutionalized  procedures to  cover up and dismiss  ADR's right?

I had a terrible ADR to Cirpo , it nearly killed me and   I was not only dismissed but threated with arrest  by an ER doctor
 once the criminal allopathic system  damages  you with one of their poisons they do not  want to know you


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 11, 2021)

kevin corms said:


> Because you are tribal? Or because you don't pay attention? Mind you I'm not saying folks on the right don't deny science, but a lot of that comes from when science conflicts with religion or their jobs. People deny science when it conflicts with other strong beliefs they have, then they easily feed their confirmation bias to justify it.


No, because your statements about people on the Left don't seem to line up with the vast majority of what people on the Left tend to stand for. This isn't to say that many issues like anti-vax aren't found universally but it is to say that there's a pretty divide in many of these issues. Anti-vax is not a commonly found position in the Left, most tend to push for trusting doctors. It's extremely commonly found in the Right and even pushed by far-right politicians like Trump.  You coupled in honest observations, like much of the Left being pro-GMO's and nuclear power, but then confusing statements like male-female differences. This is another issue that doesn't seem to line up with much of the Left, as much of the Left is tends to be trying to push away from male-female differences and even towards accepting concepts that are contrary to that. This isn't to say that these claims eclipses all of the Left, you often find different ideas across the spectrum, but it's pretty fair to say that most people on the Left these days tend to be rather pro-science, pro-gender equality/expression, and against movements like anti-vax.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

People are misrepresenting covid-19 vaccine hesitancy as anti-vax.  There are people who have vaccines that are reluctant to partake in the emergency vaccine who will get it after full approval.  The emergency approval is colloquially interpreted as rushed.  Of course there are those passionately driven to dedicate their bodies to science and would criticize those not backing them.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

I'm not anti-vax btw.  I'm pro-choice.

Anyone interested in listening to Lacius or anyone else regarding the vaccine should also be interested in listening to a doctor.

@Lacius, you should watch 15 minutes of it before responding with your typical ad hominem.


----------



## xX_darkn3sss_Xx (Jul 11, 2021)

i took my chances with the deadly astrazenica vaccine and live to tell @Stealphie the tale


----------



## Xzi (Jul 11, 2021)

Relevant


----------



## smf (Jul 11, 2021)

weatMod said:


> I had a terrible ADR to Cirpo , it nearly killed me and   I was not only dismissed but threated with arrest  by an ER doctor
> once the criminal allopathic system  damages  you with one of their poisons they do not  want to know you



And? You found a bad ER doctor, that doesn't mean that all ER doctors are bad.



tabzer said:


> There are people who have vaccines that are reluctant to partake in the emergency vaccine who will get it after full approval.



You understand that the difference between emergency approval and full approval is just admin right?
I've not seen any indication that they are going to redo the admin in a different way to re-approve it.



tabzer said:


> I'm not anti-vax btw.  I'm pro-choice.



Pro choice like Roe v. Wade ?

It's kinda ironic that for abortion you see a lot of republicans saying you shouldn't have choice and that life should be protected. But when it comes to vaccine then choice matters, even if by remaining un-vaccinated they kill someone else.

It's almost like the arguments are made up by hypocrites.


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> *I'm not anti-vax btw*.  I'm pro-choice.


Oh, now _that's_ funny.  I see tabzer as a living embodiment of a deleted Facebook post.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

LumInvader said:


> Oh, now _that's_ funny.  I see tabzer as a living embodiment of a deleted Facebook post.



People are misrepresenting covid-19 vaccine hesitancy as anti-vax. There are people who have vaccines that are reluctant to partake in the emergency vaccine who will get it after full approval. The emergency approval is colloquially interpreted as rushed. Of course there are those passionately driven to dedicate their bodies to science and would criticize those not backing them.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

smf said:


> It's kinda ironic that for abortion you see a lot of republicans saying you shouldn't have choice and that life should be protected. But when it comes to vaccine then choice matters, even if by remaining un-vaccinated they kill someone else.



It's messed up that pro-abortion is called "pro-choice" in the first place, and when a developing human life isn't involved, it's no longer "my body, my choice".  Feel free to get the vaccine, whose "emergency approval" doesn't mean anything to you.  Suggesting un-vaccinated people are killing people by making a personal choice is propaganda.

Your parents weren't considerate of other people's lives when they decided to have you.  (When they had "unprotected" sex.)


----------



## stanna (Jul 11, 2021)

Do you know why a lot of people got peanut allergies, they used peanut proteins in the mmr vacine, take a look at https://www.ukcolumn.org they put out 3 videos a week well worth watching plus take a look at there yellow card adverse reactions data.


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> People are misrepresenting covid-19 vaccine hesitancy as anti-vax. There are people who have vaccines that are reluctant to partake in the emergency vaccine who will get it after full approval. The emergency approval is colloquially interpreted as rushed. Of course there are those passionately driven to dedicate their bodies to science and would criticize those not backing them.


- Downplaying\ignoring Covid-19 dangers.
- Exaggerating vaccine dangers.  
- Repeatedly linking to deceptive anti-vaxxer websites, mislabeling them as "facts" and "credible."

Vaccine hesitancy?  Cut the crap. These are straight from the anti-vaxxer playbook.

The "facts" and "credible" claims are textbook examples of confirmation bias.  tabzer has been repeatedly called out for not vetting these websites.  In one such example, Lacius brought up multiple disturbing allegations regarding the AAPS, the fringe political advocacy group behind the survey tabzer cited as "credible," here.  tabzer did respond to the post, but *without addressing any* of Lacius' AAPS concerns.

tabzer has made several bold claims about his "sources" and about himself.  Regardless, his anti-vax behavior is on record.  His baseless promotion of grand election fraud conspiracy involving Trump appointees turning on their boss is *also* on record.  These positions are practically identical to those taken by noted anti-vaxxers gregory_samba and crimpshrine.  It's as if they passed tabzer the crazy torch before retiring from this board.

If you want to convince me that you're this or that, don't tell me about it.  Show me.  Your actions, not your words, are what define you.


----------



## smf (Jul 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> There are people who have vaccines that are reluctant to partake in the emergency vaccine who will get it after full approval.



You promise?



tabzer said:


> It's messed up that pro-abortion is called "pro-choice" in the first place



No, pro-choice is absolutely correct. Pro-life is fucked up, because a foetus isn't a life, but the mother definitely is.

Pro-lifers would want to force vaccines on everyone, like they force going through with pregnancies.



tabzer said:


> Suggesting un-vaccinated people are killing people by making a personal choice is propaganda.



No, it's correct. If you don't do *everything* you can to reduce the spread then you have decided that your life is more important than anyone elses.

Pro-life against abortion is propoganda, as it's very much anti-life of the human being involved but some evil idiot decided that it was a good way to manipulate people and it seems to work. Republicans are good manipulators, but level headed people see through the evil.



tabzer said:


> Your parents weren't considerate of other people's lives when they decided to have you.  (When they had "unprotected" sex.)



Well that is their choice. It's kinda creepy that you are imagining my parents contraception & rather arrogant to make any assumptions about it.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



stanna said:


> Do you know why a lot of people got peanut allergies, they used peanut proteins in the mmr vacine, take a look at https://www.ukcolumn.org they put out 3 videos a week well worth watching plus take a look at there yellow card adverse reactions data.



No, I don't know that & if I did know that then I'm not sure I'd know something true.

_ A 2008 study found that the prevalence of peanut allergy in Jewish children in the UK, where the advice had been to avoid peanuts, was 10 times higher than that of children in Israel, where rates are low – there, babies are often given peanut snacks.
_
https://www.nationalpeanutboard.org/wellness/5-myths-about-peanuts.htm
_
*MYTH 4: Peanut oil in vaccinations causes peanut allergy.   *
Peanut oil is not an ingredient in any US licensed vaccine listed by the Centers for the Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). There is no research that supports a causative relationship between vaccinations and peanut allergies. In fact, Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) specifically states on their Vaccination Education Center website that peanut oil, as some people suggest, is not used as a part of vaccinations. The CDC provide excellent information on vaccines at their website, especially regarding their benefits, ingredients, and safety.
_


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 11, 2021)

Pro-life until someone wants to make and expand services that can make life easier.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

LumInvader said:


> - Downplaying\ignoring Covid-19 dangers.
> - Exaggerating vaccine dangers.
> - Repeatedly linking to deceptive anti-vaxxer websites, mislabeling them as "facts" and "credible."
> 
> ...



If you think a survey of physicians is not credible because of the demographic, you really aren't addressing the credibility of the survey.  You are using ad-hominem to disregard the results of the survey.  That's rejecting some facts in favor of other facts to curate an imaginary narrative that %96 of all physicians have taken and recommend the vaccine.  Physicians are people with a variety of concerns and focuses.  Some are in the AAPS.  Acknowledging that different points of view exist is not confirmation bias.  Rejecting results because it is inconvenient for your narrative is.

I don't know what "bold claims" you think I have made about my sources or myself.  Characterizing me as anti-vax because I disagree with the presentation that the COVID-19 vaccine is an easy choice (or you're a murderer) is your prerogative, but does nothing in addressing facts or acknowledging the propaganda.

If you want to talk about the possibilities of election fraud, feel free to tag me in the appropriate thread.

Meanwhile, here is a _doctor_ with interesting insights on the vaccine.

I hope you watch it instead of rejecting it because you have an idea about who posted it.  The facts are eye opening.



LumInvader said:


> If you want to convince me that you're this or that, don't tell me about it. Show me.



TBH, I'm not that interested.  You come off as temperamental and a bit of a control freak.



smf said:


> absolute garbage as usual.



Have you tried abortion?


----------



## smf (Jul 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Have you tried abortion?



I'm not a doctor, so no. Have you?

Have you tried being a rape victim who wants their pregnancy aborted?



tabzer said:


> Meanwhile, here is a _doctor_ with interesting insights on the vaccine.



I'm not interested in insights, doctors can be crazy too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucel...gnetizes-people-makes-keys-stick-on-forehead/

Now I agree that just because your view points align with all these crazy people and you come across as a crazy person that you might be right randomly on one thing out of thousands, but we can't know which time you will be right and you don't provide any credible evidence & therefore sadly we have to over look you.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

smf said:


> I'm not interested in insights



Tell us something we don't already know.


----------



## smf (Jul 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Tell us something we don't already know.



Something you don't know? Well that is a long list.

How about that watching videos that you agree with just reinforces your bias.

The insights of a crazy doctor will not improve your life, just drag you further into your delusion.

Come back when they have peer reviewed evidence, if it was worth watching then it wouldn't be stuck on a site with shitty bandwidth. I can't even verify that the person in the video is a doctor.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 11, 2021)

smf said:


> Something you don't know? Well that is a long list.
> 
> How about that watching videos that you agree with just reinforces your bias.
> 
> ...



Your "list" is just three points of evidence that you haven't watched the video.

Your biological parents, if you have those, are very inconsiderate.

The bandwidth is fine.


----------



## Delerious (Jul 11, 2021)

I still think it's hilarious how the position on the COVID vaccine flipped between 2020 and 2021. I remember when liberals were the ones like "I won't get a vaccine funded by Trump Admin" when Operation Warp Speed was announced, and Trump supporters were all for it.

The irony.


----------



## smf (Jul 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Your "list" is just three points of evidence that you haven't watched the video.



I clearly never said I watched the video, sitting through an hour of brain washing material isn't exactly something I would generally do anyway. It would be much easier if you posted a transcript so we could easily debunk it sentence by sentence, like all your other posts.

I've googled the link and the only place that links to it says it's by well known crackpot Peter McCullough who has been debunked many times before. Do I still need to watch it?

Can't you just accept that it, along with everything else you believe, is just plain wrong?

_Dr. Peter McCullough, vice chief of Internal Medicine at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas, Texas, and the most prolifically published academic physician in his field of heart and kidneys in history, has testified several times lately that there is a shocking suppression of early treatment for COVID-19 in medical literature._

I'm sure he knows a lot about hearts and kidneys, but probably not so much about virus, immunology & early treatments. Which are clearly not suppressed, https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/...eed-to-know-about-the-covid-19-therapy-trials, just not the hydroxychloroquine he wanted doctors to use despite it doing worse in double blind trials

I don't like discarding peoples opinions just because they are usually wrong, but you and he are just wrong too often & obviously aren't trying hard enough.



tabzer said:


> Your biological parents, if you have those, are very inconsiderate.



IF? How poor is your medical knowledge?

I'll tell them that a random on the internet thinks that they are inconsiderate, I'm sure they'll find it hilarious.

Everyone is inconsiderate, republicans more so. You're just more triggered when people don't consider you.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 11, 2021)

Delerious said:


> I still think it's hilarious how the position on the COVID vaccine flipped between 2020 and 2021. I remember when liberals were the ones like "I won't get a vaccine funded by Trump Admin" when Operation Warp Speed was announced, and Trump supporters were all for it.
> 
> The irony.


I think the general sentiment from the political left was "I'm not going to get vaccinated if/when it becomes available just because Trump says it's safe. I'll wait for Fauci and the broader medical community to recommend it first." I believe numerous Democratic candidates for president  pretty much said the same thing during the election.

If Trump hadn't downplayed the pandemic or hidden the fact that he himself got vaccinated, maybe his supporters would feel differently about the vaccine.


----------



## smf (Jul 11, 2021)

Delerious said:


> I still think it's hilarious how the position on the COVID vaccine flipped between 2020 and 2021. I remember when liberals were the ones like "I won't get a vaccine funded by Trump Admin" when Operation Warp Speed was announced, and Trump supporters were all for it.
> 
> The irony.



I'm not sure the Trump supporters were all for it, they swallowed his lie that it would just disappear. That is the danger of having a president who lies more than any other president in history.

Trump is so untrustworthy that I would need to double check if he showed me the sky was black and he said it was night time. That isn't irony, that is just common sense.


----------



## Delerious (Jul 11, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I think the general sentiment from the political left was "I'm not going to get vaccinated if/when it becomes available just because Trump says it's safe. I'll wait for Fauci and the broader medical community to recommend it first." I believe numerous Democratic candidates for president  pretty much said the same thing during the election.
> 
> If Trump hadn't downplayed the pandemic or hidden the fact that he himself got vaccinated, maybe his supporters would feel differently about the vaccine.



Fair point. In such a scenario, Trump probably would have won the election, too, unless the DNC went with a better strategy that didn't include a Biden/Harris run. In the least, fewer people would have died in that scenario, though I don't like to think about what another four years of the guy would have looked like - especially given all the Republican Party is right now is largely culture war talking points combined with Reagan ideology.




smf said:


> I'm not sure the Trump supporters were all for it, they swallowed his lie that it would just disappear. That is the danger of having a president who lies more than any other president in history.
> 
> Trump is so untrustworthy that I would need to double check if he showed me the sky was black and he said it was night time. That isn't irony, that is just common sense.



The way I see it, Trump is probably no less trustworthy than most other politicians and big business people. The difference is that he wasn't as good at hiding it.


----------



## smf (Jul 12, 2021)

Delerious said:


> The way I see it, Trump is probably no less trustworthy than most other politicians and big business people. The difference is that he wasn't as good at hiding it.



I disagree, he is so corrupt that news of his corruption has become normalized. When news of lesser corrupt people breaks, then it's worse for them while there is no downside for Trump for doing illegal things.

There are probably people out there that would do worse things than him, but aren't given the opportunity because they didn't inherit loads of money and were enabled by others to be corrupt.

You could argue that allowing one guy to get away with it doesn't cause much of a problem, it's just stealing tax dollars from the government or cheating someone out of money who are probably not very nice either. However what it does is teach everyone watching that it's ok to do that.

So even if you are right and everyone else is so much better at hiding it, then it still justifies taking a hard line on Trump.


----------



## kevin corms (Jul 12, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> No, because your statements about people on the Left don't seem to line up with the vast majority of what people on the Left tend to stand for. This isn't to say that many issues like anti-vax aren't found universally but it is to say that there's a pretty divide in many of these issues. Anti-vax is not a commonly found position in the Left, most tend to push for trusting doctors. It's extremely commonly found in the Right and even pushed by far-right politicians like Trump.  You coupled in honest observations, like much of the Left being pro-GMO's and nuclear power, but then confusing statements like male-female differences. This is another issue that doesn't seem to line up with much of the Left, as much of the Left is tends to be trying to push away from male-female differences and even towards accepting concepts that are contrary to that. This isn't to say that these claims eclipses all of the Left, you often find different ideas across the spectrum, but it's pretty fair to say that most people on the Left these days tend to be rather pro-science, pro-gender equality/expression, and against movements like anti-vax.


So some study says that the guy who approved and accelerated the vaccine also said not to get it, I think you are so sucked up in propaganda Im wasting my time. The man wanted to call it the trumpCine for goodness sakes. So there you are proving my point about feeding confirmation bias, you just did it in real time. YOu can actually look up an article or flawed study to support any argument you want online these days, keep this in mind at all times. Here is one for you, a video that you just cant deny https://www.cbsnews.com/video/2020-vp-debate-kamala-harris-on-coronavirus-vaccine/ there you have the vp spreading ridiculous tribalism.

Mind you the idea that the democrats are left wing is completely bonkers, its all smoke and mirrors. I wouldn't even call Trump far right, especially since in many ways he's to the left of Biden in actual practice. Not because Trump is great, its because Biden and the like are so horrible and tribal people look the other way. We are talking about people who send the cia over to countries like Syria to fund terrorists... The same politicians who would find Muslim men and radicalize them so they could stop them later.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 12, 2021)

Testimony from a real doctor, not Bill Gates, and not some flip flopping fraudster like Fauci:


----------



## kevin corms (Jul 12, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Testimony from a real doctor, not Bill Gates, and not some flip flopping fraudster like Fauci:



Fauci is a real doctor, but politics come first from him. Bill Gats is so rich people like to pretend he knows everything so they can have some money too.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Delerious said:


> Fair point. In such a scenario, Trump probably would have won the election, too, unless the DNC went with a better strategy that didn't include a Biden/Harris run. In the least, fewer people would have died in that scenario, though I don't like to think about what another four years of the guy would have looked like - especially given all the Republican Party is right now is largely culture war talking points combined with Reagan ideology.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly, the government hated him because he kept saying the quiet part out loud. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/keeping-oil-syria-trump-considered-war-crime/story?id=66589757

Usually they just do it and act like the American government does no wrong ever. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...eddling-comments-geneva-were-such-ncna1271316

Anyway, I'm done. It greatly frustrates me to discuss politics with people who don't actually pay attention to anything.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 12, 2021)

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/why-we-must-question-vaccine-efficacy-and-safety-claims


----------



## linuxares (Jul 12, 2021)

Ugh... I just hate how people try to argue against the flood of real data that the vaccines work.

The more people that gets vaccinated the faster the virus can get irradiated. But thanks the anti-vaxx moments some dead diseases are coming back and fuck you for doing that.


----------



## zxr750j (Jul 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Ugh... I just hate how people try to argue against the flood of real data that the vaccines work.
> 
> The more people that gets vaccinated the faster the virus can get irradiated. But thanks the anti-vaxx moments some dead diseases are coming back and fuck you for doing that.



Thanks for that, fuck'm (idiots)


----------



## tabzer (Jul 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Ugh... I just hate how people try to argue against the flood of real data that the vaccines work.
> 
> The more people that gets vaccinated the faster the virus can get irradiated. But thanks the anti-vaxx moments some dead diseases are coming back and fuck you for doing that.



Blame the un-vaxxed for your "vaccination" not working.  Why don't you demand a better solution (cure)?  Obviously the government has enough power to push it if getting a vaccine that gains pharmaceutical companies trillions in revenue was so easy.


----------



## linuxares (Jul 12, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Blame the un-vaxxed for your "vaccination" not working.  Why don't you demand a better solution (cure)?  Obviously the government has enough power to push it if getting a vaccine that gains pharmaceutical companies trillions in revenue was so easy.


Dude, are you dumber than your avatar looks? The vaccinations work! We had eradicated Measles in the west. Then some moms read some facebook posts and fake websites like the ones you linked and suddenly, it's coming back! It's not like people stopped traveling?

So fuck you and your anti-vax bullshit. If you don't want to take the shot, fine. But shut the hell up about spreading misinformation.
EDIT: To add, I can't get the measles. I'm vaccinated against it.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 12, 2021)

Oi mates, I'd like to say *again* that vaccines are effective. I don't know how you people have enough energy to find false news sources from people who have so much time on their hands.

Unknown side effects? Those are from pre-existing conditions. You fully agree with a form to consent that anything that happens is at your own risk and you understand the _potential_ dangers (I'm not saying there are any for most people) that come with an Emergency Authorization Vaccine.
The Pfizer and Moderna vaccinations haven't had deadly side effects in 99.99% of people. Some people have died *having the vaccine, not because of the vaccine.* Myself and others in this thread have been vaccinated or partially vaccinated and feel perfectly fine. I had the expected side effects, because since the beginning of vaccination, side effect were considered the vaccine working.

Of course, as most vaccines go, there is always a component of danger with pre-existing conditions. The most common one is eggs, the place where viruses are grown. *However, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines do not have eggs, rather a messenger mRNA strand.* Here is the link to a source proving mRNA's effectiveness and application in the medical community. The other one that has been discovered is certain cardiovascular conditions. Rather than using Google, an ineffective tool for self-diagnosis and extreme conditions, *consult a medically licensed practitioner, who can perform such tests to tell you if your heart couldn't handle a COVID-19 vaccine. Do not use Google as a tool for self diagnosis. No matter how cool and smart you think you are, 9 times out of 10 you will not ever diagnose yourself correctly.
*
A fun fact: my history of genetic cardiovascular diseases still hasn't got in the way of me getting my vaccine, as my doctor approved it for our family. I have had the vaccine for months now and have felt absolutely no pain.

In other words, vaccine ignorance has been disproven. Swallow your pride, burn it with fire, and scatter the ashes into acid. Get your vaccine to protect yourself and others, especially because of the new variants of COVID circulating around. Nobody gives half of a rat's arse if you have a source saying it causes moderate to severe tuberculosis in one person who happened to get tuberculosis, it's meant to help you and others go back to normal life. *Most countries now require proof of vaccination with an on-site screening. If you want to do anything fun anymore, get vaccinated. You will get nowhere by vaccine-Karening.

I do not welcome people who are "trans-vaccinated." Vaccines are not a like sexuality, and placebo-effecting yourself will do nothing. You may not identify that way. You can (if you want), pick and choose sexualities and orientations depending on how your brain feels fit with its development. However, claiming to be vaccinated without a record is dangerous, rude, satirical, and potentially considered fraudulent. Go actually get a vaccine. Myself, a team of educated people, and several thousands of sources, doctors, and medical professionals who know what they are doing (and who know more than you about what you are trying to dispute) will disprove conspiracies. I welcome those who can't get the vaccine because of allergies or diseases which will be negatively impacted by an ingredient within the vaccine. You are fine, but don't anti-vaxx advocate for those who are merely idiots.
*
That's right, I'm back in the thread.


----------



## gene0915 (Jul 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Ugh... I just hate how people try to argue against the flood of real data that the vaccines work.
> 
> The more people that gets vaccinated the faster the virus can get irradiated. But thanks the anti-vaxx moments some dead diseases are coming back and fuck you for doing that.



Ugh, I hate how people try and suppress alternative view points and censor anyone and everyone that doesn't swallow the mainstream narrative. God forbid somebody like Dr. McCullough stands up and makes very valid points. Face it, the emperor has no clothes and brave doctors like him need to call out the BS. If you bothered watching the link I posted a few replies back, can you point out anything he lied about? This guy is 10,000,000 times smarter than you and lacius when it comes to covid and I'd trust his medical advice over anyone elses on this board any day of the week.

If you take away ALL..... ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the talking points you get from the lügenpresse around covid-1984, what are you basing your opinion on about how safe the covid "vaccine" is? The "doctors" and "scientists" that the lügenpresse put forward or the doctors and scientists that are censored by tech companies? Oh that's right.... you don't hear from the censored doctors because they are banned.

So at this point, you're left with personal experience to form your opinion on covid and the "vaccine" for it. In that case.... going off personal experience....how many patients have you treated with covid? You think you've seen as many as Dr. McCullough? I have no doubt you can think of dozens of people in your family and circle of friends that have all died of covid. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, they'd still be alive if they learned about covid treatments that Dr. McCullough (and other banned doctors) touched on? Before the orange clown's operation warp speed came along, virtually any mention about using vitamin D, ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine to treat covid was squashed but you're cool with that, right?

Dr. McCullough is basing his opinions on his work with covid infected patients and talking to other doctors. People like you and lacius are GIVEN your opinions from the lügenpresse and without exercising critical thinking skills, you happily lap it up and think you're smarter than people like Dr. McCullough and don't question a single thing you're told.

Like you, I use to think that there was only one side to the argument......the right side....my side. But after much reading and attending various lectures and going to symposiums on a myriad of topics, I've come to understand that there are alternative views to virtually everything and if I don't have expertise on a particular subject, I like to expose myself to both sides of an argument and decide for myself which side I come down on. I don't let CNN/Faux Noise/MSNBC/Bill Gates/big tech make that choice for me. It's beyond obvious that you can't trust the media or either side of the political divide. I fail to understand how anyone can hear *BOTH SIDES* of the covid debate and not see that something weird is going on with the official narrative.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Dude, are you dumber than your avatar looks? The vaccinations work! We had eradicated Measles in the west. Then some moms read some facebook posts and fake websites like the ones you linked and suddenly, it's coming back! It's not like people stopped traveling?
> 
> So fuck you and your anti-vax bullshit. If you don't want to take the shot, fine. But shut the hell up about spreading misinformation.
> EDIT: To add, I can't get the measles. I'm vaccinated against it.



Hey, if your vaccine works, then I am happy for you. 

_*If*_ is the operative word.  I can see why you are angry.

Also, if you don't like Amano, I consider that your loss.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 12, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Blame the un-vaxxed for your "vaccination" not working. Why don't you demand a better solution (cure)?


Isn't prevention already the better solution? Besides, if you were being even remotely consistent, you would be anti-cure too.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 12, 2021)

I'm so glad this kind of thread exists so I can see who I need to mute to keep my cool. So much misinformation from people who claim they got "information" from "censored sources/doctors" (so much censored that you got to hear a whole lot from them on platforms that make so many views and so much money I can hardly agree that there is any censorship, friends).
You claim to be thinking by yourselves, but you're only just blabbering the same old stupidities that some people who were once acclaimed for their work are now spreading even though they have no fucking clue what they're talking about, and no background whatsoever to be able to assert what they are asserting.
On the other hand, thousands of doctors and researchers are at work trying to eradicate this virus that broke our heathcare systems several times in little more than a year, have come up with very clever treatments and vaccines using research and tech that have been on the works for years and finally have a proper use. And you just blow that with a handwave by listening to stupid, inaccurate claims from a minority that doesn't even work on said disease. Have you lost your minds?

We have preventative measures, one of which has been the gold standard to (almost) eradicate several illnesses from our countries for years, so just swallow it and take your shot folks.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 12, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Hey, if your vaccine works, then I am happy for you.
> 
> _*If*_ is the operative word.  I can see why you are angry.
> 
> Also, if you don't like Amano, I consider that your loss.


Vaccines do work, there isn't a debate on that, the only arguments against them haven't been from actual professionals in the field. There are no two sides, there are people listening to professionals vs idiots. Those against vaccines are idiots, plain and simple.


tabzer said:


> Blame the un-vaxxed for your "vaccination" not working.  Why don't you demand a better solution (cure)?  Obviously the government has enough power to push it if getting a vaccine that gains pharmaceutical companies trillions in revenue was so easy.


Vaccines aren't 100% effective if there people too stupid to get them. So yes, we should blame the moronic people who remain unvaccinated, they are at fault for continuing the spread of diseases like Covid. The cure for Covid is simple, get the vaccine and slow the spread, the same way we dealt with diseases like smallpox.



kevin corms said:


> So some study says that the guy who approved and accelerated the vaccine also said not to get it, I think you are so sucked up in propaganda Im wasting my time. The man wanted to call it the trumpCine for goodness sakes.
> Sources?





kevin corms said:


> So there you are proving my point about feeding confirmation bias, you just did it in real time. YOu can actually look up an article or flawed study to support any argument you want online these days, keep this in mind at all times. Here is one for you, a video that you just cant deny https://www.cbsnews.com/video/2020-vp-debate-kamala-harris-on-coronavirus-vaccine/ there you have the vp spreading ridiculous tribalism.


I literally don't care what the VP says, I don't look to politicians for medical advice nor for their opinions on vaccines. I also don't see what you are getting at and it just seems like you are stating some pseudo-intellectual guff about me.



kevin corms said:


> Mind you the idea that the democrats are left wing is completely bonkers, its all smoke and mirrors. I wouldn't even call Trump far right, especially since in many ways he's to the left of Biden in actual practice. Not because Trump is great, its because Biden and the like are so horrible and tribal people look the other way. We are talking about people who send the cia over to countries like Syria to fund terrorists... The same politicians who would find Muslim men and radicalize them so they could stop them later.


I am glad you are at least aware that the Dems don't fall into the Left, but then the rest of what you said is completely laughable. Trump and Biden are both on the far-right, but the claim that Trump is closer Left is just a joke. Trump is literally a far-right Nationalist, he pushed for far-right politics and us-vs-them rhetoric. I am starting to feel like you have an unhealthy obsession with tribalism and ignoring the time Trump literally convinced his followers to violently go after non-supporters, Mexicans, and Asians. Also, Trump continued the same attacks on Syria that were started by Obama. None of their hands are clean of that blood and pretending Biden is the only one guilty is just ignoring reality.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 12, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Vaccines do work, there isn't a debate on that, the only arguments against them haven't been from actual professionals in the field. There are no two sides, there are people listening to professionals vs idiots. Those against vaccines are idiots, plain and simple.
> 
> Vaccines aren't 100% effective if there people too stupid to get them. So yes, we should blame the moronic people who remain unvaccinated, they are at fault for continuing the spread of diseases like Covid. The cure for Covid is simple, get the vaccine and slow the spread, the same way we dealt with diseases like smallpox.
> 
> ...



If you are accurate and true (you're not), then please disillusion @linuxares 



linuxares said:


> To add, I can't get the measles. I'm vaccinated against it





RocaBOT said:


> I can hardly agree that there is any censorship


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> If you are accurate and true (you're not), then please disillusion @linuxares


So I should trust the guy who believes the election was rigged based on his personal faith for his opinion on vaccines? Provide actual proof, actual evidence, something of actual substance that is peer-reviewed and backed by professionals.
I do want to add that I am saying all anti-vaxxors are dangerous idiots. Vaccines work, history provides plenty of evidence that vaccines work. The fact that we aren’t dying from diseases that were once widespread is evidence that vaccines work. To deny the reality and believe conspiracies about vaccines is dangerous and stupid.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> So I should trust the guy who believes the election was rigged based the source of personal faith for his opinion on vaccines? Provide actual proof, actual evidence, or are you going to continue to pretend you are anything other than a conspiracy believing nutjob?
> I do want to add that I am saying all anti-vaxxors are dangerous idiots. Vaccines work, history provides plenty of evidence that vaccines work. The fact that we aren’t dying from diseases that were once widespread is evidence that vaccines work. To deny the reality and believe conspiracies about vaccines is dangerous and stupid.



I'm not asking you to believe me.  It's stupid to insinuate that believing people on the internet is how we should make decisions.

If you want to use lack of data as a "proof" then that's on you.  To present the vaccine as being risk-free is unethical.  To suggest that the non-vaccinated are the cause of your issues is propaganda.

If you trust the agencies, then ok.  Can you inform me where the agencies recommend people like you should coerce, manipulate, and bully others into being vaccinated?

You make the argument that correlation is evidence of cause, but would easily buy into the narrative that correlation is not evidence of cause when the result doesn't suit the interest of the providers.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'm not asking you to believe me.  It's stupid to insinuate that believing people on the internet is how we should make decisions.
> 
> If you want to use lack of data as a "proof" then that's on you.  To present the vaccine as being risk-free is unethical.  To suggest that the non-vaccinated are the cause of your issues is propaganda.
> 
> If you trust the agencies, then ok.  Can you inform me where the agencies recommend people like you should coerce, manipulate, and bully others into being vaccinated?


I didn’t say vaccines were risk-free but the actual risks are so minimum that it’s not worth the time to panic over them. Those who are at risk when it comes to vaccines are those suffering from extremely serious medical conditions and also those who benefit from others around them getting vaccinated. 
Unvaccinated individuals are dangerous as they continue to spread preventable diseases. Vaccines are not 100% effective, this is why it’s important to vaccinate if you can. Choosing against vaccinations puts yourself at risk of both getting infected and spreading the virus. 
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...th/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808
https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-d..._27b8tnq71lJ0FFckxrh5qbHKPbh7NoaApG-EALw_wcB#
https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/achieving-herd-immunity-with-covid19.html

You are the one required to provide proof and sources to your claims. Why is it that those against vaccines continue to shift the burden of responsibility? Are your sources really so trash that you aren’t comfortable sharing them? Because it seems like the anti-vaccines side is pretty uncomfortable with sharing peer-reviewed research backed by professionals.
Have you considered that maybe you’re wrong and that’s why people are on you about this shit? That maybe you are spreading dangerous misinformation against proven medical research? Maybe it’s your fault for people “bullying you?” Because it is, you are the one at fault for all for this. Provide sources or get called out.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Blame the un-vaxxed for your "vaccination" not working.  Why don't you demand a better solution (cure)?  Obviously the government has enough power to push it if getting a vaccine that gains pharmaceutical companies trillions in revenue was so easy.


This is beyond stupid. You don't just wish for a cure and it happens. We don't have a cure. That's why we have to rely on the next best thing which is vaccines. Which is close to a cure if everyone gets vaxxed. We've eradicated viruses before just on vaccines.


This is so dumb. Blame the unvaxxed that the vaccine is not working? It's the people who are not vaccinated that are mostly spreading virus. How is the vaccine failing to work if they don't even have the vaccine in them to begin with?


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> You are the one required to provide proof and sources to your claims.



What claims have I made that you are disputing?  We have evidence and facts.  How you interpret those facts is up to you.  It's a fact that not getting a vaccine doesn't cause Covid-19.  If vaccines work, then you should be happy.  You want to be angry and hateful because why?  You target people who aren't involved to with your political medicine.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



SG854 said:


> This is beyond stupid. You don't just wish for a cure and it happens. We don't have a cure. That's why we have to rely on the next best thing which is vaccines. Which is close to a cure if everyone gets vaxxed. We've eradicated viruses before just on vaccines.
> 
> 
> This is so dumb. Blame the unvaxxed that the vaccine is not working? It's the people who are not vaccinated that are mostly spreading virus. How is the vaccine failing to work if they don't even have the vaccine in them to begin with?



You don't pay pharmaceutical companies trillions of dollars for 70+ years and assume that a cure which would end their business model is in everybody's interest.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> What claims have I made that you are disputing?  We have evidence and facts.  How you interpret those facts is up to you.  It's a fact that not getting a vaccine doesn't cause Covid-19.  If vaccines work, then you should be happy.  You want to be angry and hateful because why?  You target people who aren't involved to with your political medicine.


Literally in this post you have stated that you have “evidence and facts,” so provide them. Why can you never provide proper evidence for any of your claims? This isn’t the first thread that you’ve tried to pull this shit on. Prove why unvaccinated people aren’t the problem, show evidence that they aren’t an issue. Provide a proper source of medical professionals being skeptical of vaccines. Provide sources from medical professionals for any of your claims, period. Literally every single time you are asked to provide evidence, you fail to do so. It seems like your evidence is completely made up and your posts should be criticized until actual evidence is provided.


----------



## silien3 (Jul 13, 2021)

SG854 said:


> This is beyond stupid. You don't just wish for a cure and it happens. We don't have a cure. That's why we have to rely on the next best thing which is vaccines. Which is close to a cure if everyone gets vaxxed. We've eradicated viruses before just on vaccines.
> 
> 
> This is so dumb. Blame the unvaxxed that the vaccine is not working? It's the people who are not vaccinated that are mostly spreading virus. How is the vaccine failing to work if they don't even have the vaccine in them to begin with?


vaccinate it has always been said to be for prevention and not 100 percent reliable but you can still get it the virus and spread it without having the symptoms moreover no virus or disease is removed with a vaccine it is always there in nature somewhere but trying to blame the anti covid vaccine is the only thing you want here at least its what i understand
 your lie afterwards is there we still have the grip, the rabies, the thetanus and there are vaccines must stop the lies to overwhelm those who do not want to be subjects of experience a real vaccine takes time for years not on 1 month or 2
 They even affirm it in this French article that we are subject of phase 3 experience in subtle ways
https://www.letemps.ch/sciences/cla...logue-normal-gens-se-posent-questions-vaccins

a real vaccine is supposed to help the immune system against the disease not prevent disease and more the vaccine will have to be redone afterwards
we do not treat ourselves if we have nothing must stop destroying the immune system in the end we will be vulnerable to all by doing her in the long run and moreover I would like to point out that with the covid vaccine even with side effects linked to the vaccine the laboratory and bigpharma are not responsible

how can we trust those whose money is valued more than people's lives

you blame people but you ignore what is blocking them its can even be a disease already in the body for life which will block any covid vaccine because risk too great much or who knows what else but you do not care you love to spread hate nothing more without knowing why and how

sorry my english i m use google translate


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

silien3 said:


> a real vaccine is supposed to help the immune system against the disease not prevent disease


The purpose of a vaccine is to provide immunity against a disease, not to treat a disease.


----------



## silien3 (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The purpose of a vaccine is to provide immunity against a disease, not to treat a disease.


I did not want to say to treat but fight

I must undoubtedly make myself misunderstand on points not very good in English sorry


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Why can you never provide proper evidence for any of your claims?



Again, which claim are you disputing?



Lilith Valentine said:


> Prove why unvaccinated people aren’t the problem, show evidence that they aren’t an issue.



It is based on the fact that Covid-19 is the problem.  If the vaccine works, it works.  Saying it works and then saying it's conditional and that the conditions are not being met is just flip-flopping conjecture.

Can you inform me where the agencies recommend people like you should coerce, manipulate, and bully others into being vaccinated?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Again, which claim are you disputing?
> 
> 
> 
> It is based on the fact that Covid-19 is the problem.  If the vaccine works, it works.  Saying it works and then saying it's conditional and that the conditions are not being met is just flip-flopping conjecture.


It's disingenuous (or an utter lack of understanding on your part) to suggest that anybody here is arguing that not getting vaccinated directly causes COVID-19 infections. However, unvaccinated people are significantly more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract the disease, suffer severe symptoms due to the disease, die from the disease, and spread the disease.

It is not "flip flopping conjecture" to acknowledge how herd immunity works and how willfully unvaccinated people are keeping us from it.



tabzer said:


> Again, which claim are you disputing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is not manipulation nor bullying to acknowledge that the COVID-19 vaccines are very safe, highly effective, and highly recommended. It is not manipulation nor bullying to acknowledge the moral imperative there is to get vaccinated.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Again, which claim are you disputing?
> 
> 
> 
> It is based on the fact that Covid-19 is the problem.  If the vaccine works, it works.  Saying it works and then saying it's conditional and that the conditions are not being met is just flip-flopping conjecture


Didn't I already address this? It works on people who use it.

How do you not get that the virus is being contracted by people who aren't vaccinated and they are spreading it to other people who aren't vaccinated. And the virus is mostly being kept alive within the unvacinated population.


You talk about that the pharmaceutical companies don't want to come out with a cure because it will stop the steady stream of money from coming in every year from all the profit they make from vaccines, which you have no evidence of and is just a conspiracy theory.



But if that was true it's you people refusing to get the vaccine that is keeping the virus in circulation for much longer. You unvacinated people are preventing herd imunity and you are keeping the virus alive much longer and you are helping the greedy corporations making as much profit as they can for as long as they can. You are the thing that you are criticizing.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Again, which claim are you disputing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You aren’t being bullied for by getting called out in your dangerous beliefs. I already addressed the areas specifically needing sources, you’ve been deliberately avoiding those requests the entire time. The only thing you’ve proven is that you don’t have any sources, your arguments are garbage, and you deserve to have your ideas criticized in the hopes they stop spreading. You are spreading dangerous misinformation, fuck you and fuck anyone you thinks like you.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's disingenuous (or an utter lack of understanding on your part) to suggest that anybody here is arguing that not getting vaccinated directly causes COVID-19 infections.



I don't know Lacius.  It seems like people are getting pretty mad.



Lacius said:


> It is not "flip flopping conjecture" to acknowledge how herd immunity works and how willfully unvaccinated people are keeping us from it.



If the vaccine doesn't work because herd immunity isn't being reached, then it's not a real vaccination.  Ideals vs reality.



Lacius said:


> It is not manipulation nor bullying to acknowledge that the COVID-19 vaccines are very safe, highly effective, and highly recommended. It is not manipulation nor bullying to acknowledge the moral imperative there is to get vaccinated.



No Lacius.  It's not a moral imperative.  If the vaccine was all of those things, there'd be no need to push it or bribe people to get it.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I don't know Lacius.  It seems like people are getting pretty mad.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Getting mad at you for spreading dangerous misinformation does not invalidate the fact that you don’t have evidence for your claims. Provide some sources to your posts, any of them. Provide a source countering herd immunity. Provide a source that unvaccinated people aren’t a danger to their community. Provide sources, back up you claims for once. Or are just going to just keep shifting the burden of proof and pleading ignorance when people call you out on your shit?


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Jul 13, 2021)

I'm still not getting it because I personally don't trust it.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Getting mad at you for spreading dangerous misinformation does not invalidate the fact that you don’t have evidence for your claims. Provide some sources to your posts, any of them. Provide a source countering herd immunity. Provide a source that unvaccinated people aren’t a danger to their community. Provide sources, back up you claims for once. Or are just going to just keep shifting the burden of proof and pleading ignorance when people call you out on your shit?



What dangerous misinformation am I spreading?  You wanna riddle more profanity at me to convince me that you aren't being pushy and irrational?



BlazeMasterBM said:


> I'm still not getting it because I personally don't trust it.


And that is your right as well as your moral imperative.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 13, 2021)

I love how all of you anti-vaxxers don't know when to stop. You're like far right Republicans with trucks at an intersection.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Provide a source countering herd immunity.



I never made the argument that herd immunity is not a thing.



Lilith Valentine said:


> Provide a source that unvaccinated people aren’t a danger to their community.



The assumption that they are is the problem.  It's not any of your business if people are vaccinated or not.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I never made the argument that herd immunity is not a thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The assumption that they are is the problem.  It's not any of your business if people are vaccinated or not.


It's, er, everyone's business m'lad. My dad has no left lung function, so if some arsehole isn't vaccinated and/or has COVID, they pose a danger to him and the rest of my family with genetic lung disease. Once again, please stop with this blasphemous anti-vaccination stuff you human equivalent of a participation award when there is science behind every last needle.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

WG481 said:


> It's, er, everyone's business m'lad



Nope.

And it's none of my business that your dad has a disease.

I've already presented Japan's history with vaccines having ridiculous results with approved vaccines.  It's not anti-science to acknowledge the failure of institutions.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Nope.
> 
> And it's none of my business that your dad has a disease.
> 
> I've already presented Japan's history with vaccines having ridiculous results with approved vaccines.  It's not anti-science to acknowledge the failure of institutions.


And it's none of my business you're an idiot.

Nobody gives a shite if Japan failed at one time or another. People have improved vaccinations for the last, I dunno, three hundred years since we used to snort smallpox scabs like crack cocaine to become immune. Please, for the love of gosh, you have been disproved several hundreds of times by several people. Please cease to spread misinformation, false sources, and unreliable news information like a third-grader with Wikipedia.


----------



## silien3 (Jul 13, 2021)

WG481 said:


> It's, er, everyone's business m'lad. My dad has no left lung function, so if some arsehole isn't vaccinated and/or has COVID, they pose a danger to him and the rest of my family with genetic lung disease. Once again, please stop with this blasphemous anti-vaccination stuff you human equivalent of a participation award when there is science behind every last needle.





Lilith Valentine said:


> Getting mad at you for spreading dangerous misinformation does not invalidate the fact that you don’t have evidence for your claims. Provide some sources to your posts, any of them. Provide a source countering herd immunity. Provide a source that unvaccinated people aren’t a danger to their community. Provide sources, back up you claims for once. Or are just going to just keep shifting the burden of proof and pleading ignorance when people call you out on your shit?



So those who are allergic or not entitled to the vaccine because too much risk for them can die for your collective immunity which does not exist and will never exist because the virus is linked to the life of all I will not burn the tree or plant of the world or kill an animal or the insects of the world and destroy all traces of them for you personally with or without people who do not want to be vaccinated a virus is like any organism in the world and will always be present your way of seeing things looks like the nazi 

and witch hunts finally that's what I understand but I may have misunderstood somewhere


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

WG481 said:


> And it's none of my business you're an idiot.
> 
> Nobody gives a shite if Japan failed at one time or another. People have improved vaccinations for the last, I dunno, three hundred years since we used to snort smallpox scabs like crack cocaine to become immune. Please, for the love of gosh, you have been disproved several hundreds of times by several people. Please cease to spread misinformation, false sources, and unreliable news information like a third-grader with Wikipedia.



I haven't been proven wrong.  But considering that your entire comment seems to be satire, I will recount the time you claimed to be here to spread propaganda.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I haven't been proven wrong.  But considering that your entire comment seems to be satire, I will recount the time you claimed to be here to spread propaganda.


Heck yeah, that's my job.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

silien3 said:


> So those who are allergic or not entitled to the vaccine because too much risk for them can die for your collective immunity which does not exist and will never exist because the virus is linked to the life of all I will not burn the tree or plant of the world or kill an animal or the insects of the world and destroy all traces of them for you personally with or without people who do not want to be vaccinated a virus is like any organism in the world and will always be present your way of seeing things looks like the nazi
> 
> and witch hunts finally that's what I understand but I may have misunderstood somewhere


Oh boy, it's almost like I said that before in another post right here.
That being said, you really don't seem to understand how herd immunity works nor how it's already had an impact on virus spreading in the past. Herd immunity is the best means of preventing the spread of a virus and protect the community. Willfully and deliberately not getting vaccinated when someone can do so, is posing a threat to the community.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Anti-vaxx, pro choice vaxx or not, you can't force people to take anything they don't want to. Can't for me or anyone else. And if you think you can, you can try, but you'll end up worse off if you come near me~


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Anti-vaxx, pro choice vaxx or not, you can't force people to take anything they don't want to. Can't for me or anyone else. And if you think you can, you can try, but you'll end up worse off if you come near me~


No one is going to force you to stop being stupid


----------



## notimp (Jul 13, 2021)

silien3 said:


> vaccinate it has always been said to be for prevention and not 100 percent reliable but you can still get it the virus and spread it without having the symptoms moreover no virus or disease is removed with a vaccine it is always there in nature somewhere but trying to blame the anti covid vaccine is the only thing you want here at least its what i understand


Here is what you are missing. With mutations of Covid, the production of antibodies after vaccination drops by a factor of 2.something (Delta variant) and 4 (some African variant, thats not as wide spread yet, partly because its not as contagious as delta). The Delta varient also increased R (the reproduction number) meaning its more contagious, than the original covid, meaning, for herd immunity to work - you'd need higher vaccination percentages in the population (about 85% by now), to also saveguard people that arent vaccinated (children under 5 f.e.).

So here is what happens in a little more detail - mRNA vaccines took the spike protein of the original covid (the one it penetrates your bodies cells with) and designed it onto a malign (useless, not harmfull) influenza virus (one that humans dont even get influenza from). Thats the one you are injected with (if you get a mRNA vaccine) Immune response to that is about 10 fold after full vaccination. Mutation (delta variant) comes along and immune response drops by a factor of two, because delta 'looks different' to the immune system. Drop by a factor of two should still be enough to grant about 40-60% (if I've read that correctly, its early - not enough studies at scale yet) immunity (compaired to the control group - meaning, you have to add a few percent judging on the individual level) and about 80% if you add non symptomatic infection. (Thats the average from mRNA fully vaccinated, and vector vaccines fully vacinated. mRNA vaccines - two shots, should bring you to 90% immunity and or non symptomatic infection.)

Difference: Immunity is when you arent even infectious (not reproducing the virus). Non symptomatic infection is when you are not showing any symptoms, but are still infectious for a while.

Why so many mutations? Basically, because influenza viruses have a tendency to mutate quite fast. (Flu shot has to be adjusted every year.)

Other viruses dont have that tendency. So vaccination great (lifelong immunity, or booster shot every two years or six years, or so). Influenza viruses - as Covid probably needs a booster shot every year. But maybe not,  but every two years, ... Booster candidates have already been produced by Pfizer and Moderna, and are currently in evaluation. (State has to decide if it makes sense).

That said - even with 80% asymptomatic infections - it helps in protecting against "grave progression" of illness and  "long covid" and you are producing a much lower virus load, so you are less infectious to others.

Hope everythings a bit clearer now. 


Aside: We arent reaching 85% or 90% vaccination rate this year (or in some countries ever). So its likely that you'll see increased mitigation measures again this winter (mask wearing, maybe curfews and or quarantines -- with a target (why are we doing this?) not to have emergency rooms overwhelmed). In future years, with vaccines targeting the 'variant (mutation) of the day better' vaccination rate needed might be able to drop to 60-70% again, for the people not getting vaccinated also being protected by a herd effect. We'll see.

How that works: If you have "one person infects three others" in place growth rate is exponential. But if a certain percentage of your population is vaccinated so that growth rate drops to "two people infect one other" propagation is stopped and reversed. So at that point even people not getting vaccinated are protected, by others getting vaccinated, because infection isnt growing anymore, its regressing. But it also is dependant on R (reproduction rate - how many other people is one person infecting, which varies by mutation).

Also: Vaccinations are needed for protection currently - because mutations are so wide spread by the end of this year, that a person already having had Covid is somewhat likely to catch the mutation again.

Two times (mRNA, not needed with Johnson & Johnson f.e. - although I dont know the protection percantage of J&J against the delta varient) vaccinated people (with current vaccines) have a much higher immune response against delta (even though it is halved in effectiveness compared to original covid), than people who already got Covid (old variant) once.

And people who had covid once, and get one shot of mRNA. Are even better off. (Because mRNA boosts antibodies, but they also got T cells immune response, from when they were sick, which apparently is a great combo). 

Problematic sideeffects (from mRNA at least) are at 1:700.000 and mostly seen in women (anecdotal, dont trust me on that..  ), so the breakdown is: Get vaccinated. 

Source: Me reading stuff..  (Newspapers mainly.)

edit: Correction: In the posting I incorrectly called Covid an influenza virus (as pointed out by regnad), that was a mistake on my part, they are different viruses (its even in the name), with similar properties in a few important instances relevant to the argument I was making. Namely propagation path (droplets and aerosols), derived from that mutation likelyhood, and symptoms (on a surface level). They are not the same virus family though. The mistake was made by me remembering, leaning more than a year ago, that vaccine candidates would likely have to be renewed annually or semi-annually, like influenza viruses. And then making the faulty logic leap. Pure mistake on my part.


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Anti-vaxx, pro choice vaxx or not, you can't force people to take anything they don't want to. Can't for me or anyone else. And if you think you can, you can try, but you'll end up worse off if you come near me~



you really sound like a stable genius and not crazy at all...


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 13, 2021)

He is not "bullying" people to not get the vaccine?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> If the vaccine doesn't work because herd immunity isn't being reached, then it's not a real vaccination.  Ideals vs reality.


The vaccines have been demonstrated to be very effective, but when a large portion of the population chooses not to get vaccinated, they continue to spread the disease at high rates, increasing the likelihood that breakthrough infections among the vaccinated will occur, and increasing the likelihood that they will spread the disease to people who are unvaccinated for medical/age reasons. Please read up on herd immunity.

We don't want people to get the disease, whether they're vaccinated or not.


----------



## regnad (Jul 13, 2021)

notimp said:


> Here is what you are missing. With mutations of Covid, the production of antibodies after vaccination drops by a factor of 2.something (Delta variant) and 4 (some African variant, thats not as wide spread yet, partly because its not as contagious as delta). The Delta varient also increased R (the reproduction number) meaning its more contagious, than the original covid, meaning, for herd immunity to work - you'd need higher vaccination percentages in the population (about 85% by now), to also saveguard people that arent vaccinated (children under 5 f.e.).
> 
> So here is what happens in a little more detail - mRNA vaccines took the spike protein of the original covid (the one it penetrates your bodies cells with) and designed it onto a malign (useless, not harmfull) influenza virus (one that humans dont even get influenza from). Thats the one you are injected with (if you get a mRNA vaccine) Immune response to that is about 10 fold after full vaccination. Mutation (delta variant) comes along and immune response drops by a factor of two, because delta 'looks different' to the immune system. Drop by a factor of two should still be enough to grant about 40-60% (if I've read that correctly, its early - not enough studies at scale yet) immunity (compaired to the control group - meaning, you have to add a few percent judging on the individual level) and about 80% if you add non symptomatic infection. (Thats the average from mRNA fully vaccinated, and vector vaccines fully vacinated. mRNA vaccines - two shots, should bring you to 90% immunity and or non symptomatic infection.)
> 
> ...



Why are you calling covid an influenza virus? While both corona viruses and influenza viruses use RNA, a shit ton of viruses use RNA, including HIV and Ebola, which thankfully both have very low mutation rates. Influenza viruses are elipsoidal Orthomyxoviridae, and corona viruses are ball-shaped Orthocoronavirinae. They are unrelated viruses. You cannot draw any conclusions about corona virus mutation rates by comparing them to influenza viruses.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines have been demonstrated to be very effective, but when a large portion of the population chooses not to get vaccinated, they continue to spread the disease at high rates, increasing the likelihood that breakthrough infections among the vaccinated will occur, and increasing the likelihood that they will spread the disease to people who are unvaccinated for medical/age reasons. Please read up on herd immunity.
> 
> We don't want people to get the disease, whether they're vaccinated or not.



Herd immunity isn't something that can be forced or expected without crossing ethical lines.  If you are happy that you took the vaccine, then I am happy for you.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Herd immunity isn't something that can be forced or expected without crossing ethical lines.


Nobody here is talking about forcing vaccination. It's disingenuous to argue as though that's the issue.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Nobody here is talking about forcing vaccination. It's disingenuous to argue as though that's the issue.



People are angry and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine.  Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral.  This is a sign that expectations or hopes were somehow betrayed.  People try to be coercive because they want authority but don't have it.

Of course nobody is mentioning that they want to be in control...  but the desire is clearly present.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine.


They are being idiotic.



tabzer said:


> Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral.


They are acting immorally.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> They are being idiotic.
> They are acting immorally.



You are too proud.  The fact is that they don't know what you know* and *you don't know what they know.  Assuming that it's one-sided puts you in the same camp.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You are too proud.  The fact is that they don't know what you know* and *you don't know what they know.  Assuming that it's one-sided puts you in the same camp.


I've demonstrated how not getting vaccinated, if you're medically able to do so, is idiotic and immoral. If you want to argue otherwise, present your argument and evidence.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I've demonstrated how not getting vaccinated, if you're medically able to do so, is idiotic and immoral. If you want to argue otherwise, present your argument and evidence.



You've claimed it, not demonstrated it.  Not succumbing to the disease is a proof beyond your capability.  Don't be envious.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You've claimed it, not demonstrated it.  Not succumbing to the disease is a proof beyond your capability.  Don't be envious.


No, I've demonstrated it numerous times throughout this thread by providing facts and supporting evidence for those facts.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

Never.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> Never.


The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and they're highly recommended, regardless of what else these companies have done unrelated to COVID-19.

It should also be noted that, while other vaccines Moderna put forth allegedly didn't make it past Phase 3 trials, the COVID-19 vaccine did.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and they're highly recommended, regardless of what else these companies have done unrelated to COVID-19.
> 
> It should also be noted that, while other vaccines Moderna put forth allegedly didn't make it past Phase 3 trials, the COVID-19 vaccine did.



Apparently you and I have been reading different news.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> No, I've demonstrated it numerous times throughout this thread by providing facts and supporting evidence for those facts.



Nope.  The only thing I've seen you demonstrate to that degree is the willingness to misrepresent facts and try to play on emotions of those who wouldn't know better.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> Apparently you and I have been reading different news.


That may be true. I suggest you look at the science.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/effectiveness-research/protocols.html



tabzer said:


> Nope.  The only thing I've seen you demonstrate to that degree is the willingness to misrepresent facts and try to play on emotions of those who wouldn't know better.


I haven't misrepresented facts, and it is not my fault if the facts elicit an emotional response. Please make sure you tag me or respond to me directly if you have anything to argue other than "nuh uh" or have any good evidence you finally want to provide.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> People are angry and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine.  Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral.  This is a sign that expectations or hopes were somehow betrayed.  People try to be coercive because they want authority but don't have it.
> 
> Of course nobody is mentioning that they want to be in control...  but the desire is clearly present.


You are using bad logic. People are calling you an idiot for your logic and you continuing to refuse to listen after they have explained to you many times. You are bad at looking at facts and evidence. And you are bad at separating bad evidence from good ones. You have no idea how to do proper research. You think you do, but that's because you don't know how to do research properly.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

@Lacius 

The CDC isn't entirely trustworthy.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> @Lacius
> 
> The CDC isn't entirely trustworthy.


I'm not asking you to blindly trust anybody, not even the CDC. I'm saying to look at the facts. The CDC cites their sources, and they aren't presenting anything the broader medical community isn't also presenting.

That all being said, the CDC has generally been a trustworthy public health agency in recent times.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

@Lacius


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I haven't misrepresented facts,




Here is you, misrepresenting facts:



Lacius said:


> AMA study (it's a PDF): https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf
> 96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated.



That survey, represents a a specific group of physicians and the survey is nothing about a recommendation.

I've already gone over the many times you overemphasize safety and omit side-effects, to degrees greater than the CDC does, and we know they already do the bare minimum, or less.




Lacius said:


> and it is not my fault if the facts elicit an emotional response.



Saying people are behaving immorally is an intent to elicit emotional response.  You can argue that it is not your fault if it actually does.



SG854 said:


> You are using bad logic. People are calling you an idiot for your logic and you refusing to listen after they have explained to you. You are bad at looking at facts and evidence. And you are bad at separating bad evidence from good ones. You have no idea how to do proper research. You think you do, but that's because you don't know how to do research properly.



You may not like what I say, but it doesn't mean it's illogical even if you say so.  Maybe you didn't understand what was being said in the first place.  Cherry picking evidence is not really an option if you are concerned with facts.  What do you mean good evidence vs. bad evidence?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

@_47iscool A person who is vaccinated cannot be "patented," "owned," or "lose their human rights." The mRNA vaccines don't even change a person's DNA.



tabzer said:


> That survey, represents a a specific group of physicians and the survey is nothing about a recommendation.


The survey results I cited comport with other surveys that also tackle the topic of recommendation as well as personal vaccination. Depending on the survey you look at, and when the surveys were conducted, something between 80-96% of doctors have gotten vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated if one is medically able to do so. The approximately 80% number can usually be found from around December-January, with the 96% number coming from June. As it is more contemporaneous, I use the 96% number. You are correct that this survey does not include a specific question about whether or not the doctor recommends getting vaccinated, but it's a stretch to think a doctor would get vaccinated without recommending vaccination. My point was the results of the survey demonstrate that doctors broadly think the COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective, and they're leading by example. It is not a misrepresentation of the facts to say the survey shows 96% of American doctors receiving and generally recommending the COVID-19 vaccine. I have also already explained how the survey is generally representative of American doctors as a whole.

Edit: Do you have evidence of the broader medical community thinking the vaccines aren't safe/effective/recommended? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.



tabzer said:


> Saying people are behaving immorally is an intent to elicit emotional response.


It isn't an intent to elicit an emotional response, and even if it were, it's irrelevant to whether or not the statement is true.

Edit: Do you have any good counterargument that failure to get vaccinated isn't immoral? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.



tabzer said:


> You may not like what I say, but it doesn't mean it's illogical even if you say so.


Nobody is saying something is illogical just because they say so. People often call what you say "illogical" because it's actually illogical.

Edit: Do you have any evidence that your arguments are logical? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.



tabzer said:


> Cherry picking evidence is not really an option if you are concerned with facts.


I truthfully haven't seen anyone in this thread cherry-pick evidence except you. Your cherry-picked evidence includes the discredited Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and a single alleged doctor, all while ignoring the broad medical consensus from every reputable medical group I'm aware of that the vaccines are highly safe, highly effective, and highly recommended.

Edit: Do you have any evidence that isn't cherry-picked? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

@Lacius 
I heard it does. I hear it causes the immune system to attack itself.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> I heard it does.


It demonstrably does not. That is not how mRNA vaccines work. I suggest you do some research, get vaccinated as soon as possible, and consult your doctor if you have any questions about how the vaccine might affect you personally.



_47iscool said:


> I hear it causes the immune system to attack itself.


There is no evidence that the COVID-19 vaccines can lead to autoimmune disease, but there is evidence that COVID-19 itself might directly cause autoimmunity. This is one more of many reasons why you should get vaccinated as soon as possible.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

@Lacius Chancing paralyses to having your skin peel off, no thanks.

Also it is hypocritical of the media to claim you should wear a mask and then taking photos of themselves and their of friends mask-less.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> Chancing paralyses to having your skin peel off, no thanks.


The risks associated with the vaccines are significant less probable and less severe than the risks associated with contracting COVID-19.

Regarding the risks of facial paralysis, there is no demonstrated risk of facial paralysis with the mRNA vaccines, and the risks of facial paralysis associated with vaccines like the J&J vaccine are vanishingly small and no different than these same risks with other vaccines we've been using for decades.

With regard to skin peeling after getting a vaccine, these risks are very rare, and there's no evidence of any skin reactions in response to a COVID-19 vaccine that are dangerous or slow to fully heal.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 13, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Hello.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Update - Still the same Opinion.


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> If you think a survey of physicians is not *credible*


It's a survey from the wacky right-wing AAPS, an organization that is *not recognized as credible* by the medical community and barred from major medical indexes; thus, it's surveys aren't recognized as credible or representative of most physicians.


tabzer said:


> because of the *demographic*


*AAPS:*  4k members_ (Right-wing physicians\Right-wing non-physicians)_
*AMA:* 240k members _(Physicians balanced across the political spectrum)_

tabzer keeps mentioning the word demographic, yet he *concealed* the size disparity between AMA and the "demographic" he chose to source, fallaciously presenting AAPS as an equivalent sized voice.  Kudos to Lacius for exposing this deception.


tabzer said:


> Physicians are people with a *variety* of concerns and focuses. Some are in the AAPS.



AAPS is a political advocacy group with *streamlined* concerns and focuses that are based on junk science.  *Not comparable.*


tabzer said:


> You are using ad-hominem to disregard the results of the survey. That's rejecting some facts in favor of other facts to curate an imaginary narrative that %96 of all physicians have taken and recommend the vaccine.



Strawman.  tabzer's fallacious narrative conveniently *ignores*:

- A left-wing political advocacy group wasn't used or even acknowledged as a necessary statistical counter-balance to the right-wing views of AAPS.
- The unknown number of overlapping physicians who belong to both AMA and AAPS, like Tom Price, which suggests that an unknown portion of the AAPS study may serve as a subset of the AMA study.
- The number of AAPS members who are actual physicians, which is unknown since *AAPS pads their paltry membership total* with non-physicians.
- AMA is over* 60x larger* than AAPS.
- Statistical accounting for AMA (60x), AAPS (1x), the hypothetical left-wing political advocacy group (1x), and physician overlap would drop AMA's 96% survey down by 0% to 1% at best.

tabzer claims ad-hominem, but his argument is* statistically insignificant, fallacious,* and serves only to confirm his status as a *misinformation peddler*.

AAPS junk science in a nutshell:

*Oratory—or hypnotic induction?*
https://aapsonline.org/oratory-or-hypnotic-induction/


> *Is Barack Obama a brilliant orator, captivating millions through his eloquence?* *Or is he deliberately using* the techniques of neurolinguistic programming (NLP),* a covert form of hypnosis* developed by Milton Erickson, M.D.?





> Obama actually said at one time: “a light will shine down from somewhere, it will light upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will say to yourself, ‘I have to vote for Barack.’”
> 
> You will not choose to vote for Barack: you will “have to.” It is not a logical choice, but rather one directed by a mystical (subconscious) force. What purpose would a politician have for making such a statement? Obama used it only once.* Perhaps he stopped either because he realized it was too obvious* or because Hillary Clinton and John McCain ridiculed him for it.





> Obama’s logo is noteworthy. It is always there, a small one in the middle of the podium, providing a point of visual fixation. Unlike other presidential logos, one looks through it, not at it. *It might just be the letter “O,” but it also resembles a crystal ball, a favorite of hypnotists*.
> 
> Obama is clearly *having a powerful effect on people*, especially young people and highly educated people—*both considered to be especially susceptible to hypnosis*. It is also interesting that many Jews are supporting a candidate who is endorsed by Hamas, Farakhan, Khalidi, and Iran.





> While some believe that hypnosis is not real, others believe that it is very powerful, and very dangerous in the wrong hands. Dr. Erickson, father of modern hypnosis, was adamant that his techniques should only be used by physicians. In 1954, the U.S. Supreme Court decided in Leyra v. Denno that a confession obtained using hypnosis could not be used against the suspect in court.
> 
> A 66-page, extensively footnoted but unsigned article* “An Examination of Obama’s Use of Hidden Hypnosis Techniques in His Speeches”* is available at: <bs link snipped>





tabzer said:


> Like it or not, the [AAPS] survey I linked to is credible.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Update - Still the same Opinion.



Vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended. They are far safer on your body and immune system than being exposed to the pathogen you're being vaccinated against.
Equating chemicals and poisons appears to be a fallacious appeal to nature.
Equating viruses and vaccines appears to demonstrate a misunderstanding of what vaccines are and how they work.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

To each their own. I will not take it.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> To each their own. I will not take it.


By not getting the vaccine, you are accepting an increased risk of contracting COVID-19, an increased risk of suffering serious or even deadly symptoms, and an increased risk of spreading the disease to other people. It is in your best interest to get vaccinated, and you have a moral imperative to get vaccinated because of how it affects the people around you.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended. They are far safer on your body and immune system than being exposed to the pathogen you're being vaccinated against.*Maybe*.
> Equating chemicals and poisons appears to be a fallacious appeal to nature.*Maybe*
> Equating viruses and vaccines appears to demonstrate a misunderstanding of what vaccines are and how they work.*Maybe*



1.Vaccines makes immune and "immortal" (a Phrase...) - Totally false - but,the Opinion of many,many,many,many People
2.Vaccines are safe - Partially true/false....as we have seen in the last Weeks....
3.Vaccines makes the Virus gone - Totally false - but,the Opinion from many,many,many,many,many People...


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Vaccines are safe - Partially true/false....as we have seen in the last Weeks


We haven't seen anything "in the last weeks" that does anything to suggest the vaccines are anything other than very safe.



alexander1970 said:


> Vaccines makes the Virus gone


Vaccines don't treat a COVID-19 infection. They help to prevent an infection from taking place, and they help keep a breakthrough infection from becoming severe.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

@Lacius


----------



## SG854 (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Here is you, misrepresenting facts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's your problem you hear these words like Cherry Picking but you don't know how to properly apply them.



Cherry Picking is actually what your doing. People have shown you that there is overall general consensus that vaccines are safe and effective. You go with what the majority says not with what the minority says.

You don't follow what 5% (not the exact number just a number for explaining sake) of people that are against vaccines say. Cherry Picking in this situation would be you ignoring the whole body of evidence of what the majority of doctors support and giving more weight to what the minority says. Cherry picking is using data that has little support to support your claims. Cherry picking is ignoring the majority.

Going with what the majority of doctors say helps iron out any fake doctors that are spreading lies. And also irons out any data that might have used bad methodology. @Lilith Valentine has continuously asked for sources which you fail to provide. Giving sources will help with looking at the methodology of the study, researchers often put short comings in their studies and we can better see if the research is usable or not.

That 5% may have used bad testing methods which is why the majority came out with different results. It being overall safe and effective is repeatable and that's what's important. The more it's repeatable then the more doctors that will support it.


Bad evidence is people that claim to have evidence but it was never good to begin with, probably a fake study or bad testing methods.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We haven't seen anything "in the last weeks" that does anything to suggest the vaccines are anything other than very safe.



Some Vaccines needs a 3rd Shot or maybe more to "work" against Delta Version.
Some People already died after beeing "cross vaccinated" / second Shot.

Not many,a little amount...but to say SAFE ? No,really not.


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 13, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Some Vaccines needs a 3rd Shot or maybe more to "work" against Delta Version.


The more the virus mutates, the more likely unvaccinated can catch it for a second time.

Thus, this isn't a limitation of vaccine technology as much as it's a byproduct of microevolution.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> People are angry and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine.  Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral.


The people not getting the vaccines are idiots and they are being immoral. Putting your own health at risk is one thing but deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses is stupid and immoral. If it’s not stupid and immoral, then prove me wrong. Provide sources that prove me wrong. You should be able to provide sources for your claims.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 13, 2021)

LumInvader said:


> The more the virus mutates, the more likely unvaccinated can catch it for a second time.
> 
> Thus, this isn't a limitation of vaccine technology as much as it's a byproduct of microevolution.



And maybe "good" and effective working Vaccines are getting "blocked" (Sputnik).....


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> @Lacius


This claim is a misrepresentation of a study that actually found no increase in the rate of miscarriages among vaccinated women.
https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...e-risk-of-pregnancy-related-adverse-outcomes/

In the future, when you post your bullshit claims, please provide a link to the claim instead of a screenshot of a headline, and please make sure there is evidence supporting the claim. This wasn't hard to fact-check, which means you didn't do your due diligence. You just saw a headline that apparently supported your position and posted it blindly. I am engaging in a good-faith discussion where, to the best of my ability, I post what I believe to be verified facts, and I ask that you do the same.



alexander1970 said:


> Some Vaccines needs a 3rd Shot or maybe more to "work" against Delta Version.


A third shot probably won't be needed, given the current two-shot vaccines appear to be very effective (about 85%) against the delta variant. I wouldn't be surprised if one became optional, and I wouldn't be surprised if new variants caused a third shot to be necessary, given all of the unvaccinated people in the world.



alexander1970 said:


> Some People already died after beeing "cross vaccinated" / second Shot.
> 
> Not many,a little amount...but to say SAFE ? No,really not.


I'm unaware of more than one or two confirmed deaths associated with the COVID-19 vaccines in the United States, and the blood clotting issues that may have caused or contributed to these deaths have since been mitigated against. The facts are clear that the vaccines are safe and effective. Even if the vaccines had resulted in one or two deaths (in ways that couldn't be mitigated against), we are talking about 1-2 deaths out of 334 million shots. Those odds are thousands to millions of times better than your odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering death as a direct result, and that's not even addressing the fact that getting vaccinated helps protect the people around you as well.

Please follow the CDC guidance, and the guidance of virtually every reputable medical group, and get vaccinated as soon as possible. If you have concerns about whether or not you can medically get the vaccine, consult your doctor.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

LumInvader said:


> concealed



I didn't conceal anything.  Lacius used a single survey to suggest that 96% physicians have taken and recommend the vaccine.  That simply isn't true nor is it a natural conclusion based on facts.  I responded with a survey with different physicians showing different results and made no claim about the size of the bandwagon--only that it was irresponsible to make broad claims based on a survey that you saw.

You initially discredited the survey of physicians because you didn't like those physicians, which is literally cherry picking facts.  After being called out on it, you are working overtime to save face.  Sorry, but I find nothing in your response that supports the initial false claim of misrepresenting the meaning of a single survey.  If @Lacius can support his claim with real evidence, then tat would be interesting.

Nice try though.



Lilith Valentine said:


> deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses is stupid and immoral.



Not getting vaccinated is not "deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses".  I don't understand how you cannot see how propagandic and false that is.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

Any doctor that is considered to be on the right side of politics won't be taken seriously or promoted
by the communist/marxist Biden administration.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> responded with a survey with different physicians showing different results


Responding with a cherry-picked survey from cherry-picked doctors didn't do anything to demonstrate your claim or refute mine. The vast majority of doctors in the United States have taken the vaccine (96%), and the vast majority of doctors recommend getting the vaccine.



tabzer said:


> You initially discredited the survey of physicians because you didn't like those physicians, which is literally cherry picking facts.  After being called out on it, you are working overtime to save face.  Sorry, but I find nothing in your response that supports the initial false claim of misrepresenting the meaning of a single survey.


Acknowledging your survey is cherry-picked data from a discredited organization of politically motivated individuals isn't itself a form of cherry-picking.



tabzer said:


> Not getting vaccinated is not "deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses".  I don't understand how you cannot see how propagandic and false that is.


Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus.



_47iscool said:


> Any doctor that is considered to be on the right side of politics won't be taken seriously or promoted by the communist/marxist Biden administration.



Whether or not a doctor identifies as politically conservative is irrelevant. All the matters is if they embrace or reject medical science. If a doctor has anti-vax positions, for example, that is a problem regardless of their politics.
The Biden administration is neither communist nor Marxist.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

Biden said that antifa is an idea, not a movement. He defended and supports them.

They clearly are a communist terrorist organization that uses violence to
further their means.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Responding with a cherry-picked survey from cherry-picked doctors didn't do anything to demonstrate your claim or refute mine.



It demonstrated the ridiculousness of using a survey to paint reality with broad strokes.



Lacius said:


> The vast majority of doctors in the United States have taken the vaccine (96%), and the vast majority of doctors recommend getting the vaccine.



So _*it's just about the US now.*_

Still would be nice to see some evidence.  Sincerely, I would like to see evidence of 96% of all American doctor's standing in unison, supporting your representation.



Lacius said:


> Acknowledging your survey is cherry-picked data from a discredited organization of politically motivated individuals isn't itself a form of cherry-picking.



All surveys are targeted, which was the point.  The criteria was physicians.  If in your initial claim you said,"96% of the good physicians have taken the vaccine", at least your bias wouldn't be as *concealed.*



Lacius said:


> Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus.



Nuh-uh.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> Biden said that antifa is an idea, not a movement. He defended and supports them.
> 
> They clearly are a communist terrorist organization that uses violence to
> further their means.



This quote is incomplete and incorrect. What Biden said was, "[Trump's] FBI director said Antifa is an idea, not an organization."
I am unaware of Biden ever defending or supporting Antifa.
There is no evidence that Antifa is a communist organization.
There is no evidence that Antifa is a terrorist organization.
Antifa is largely nonviolent.



tabzer said:


> It demonstrated the ridiculousness of using a survey to paint reality with broad strokes.


The use of the survey was relevant and was not ridiculous. I am sorry if the results of the survey are inconvenient for you.



tabzer said:


> So _*it's just about the US now.*_



I am from the United States.
I did not say it's "just about the United States." The survey demonstrates broad usage of and support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community, regardless of where the survey took place.
You can find surveys of doctors from the UK, for example, that show similar results and demonstrate broad support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community.
I've provided the survey as evidence, and I've already explained how the AMA is generally representative of American doctors and how the doctors surveyed are generally representative of American doctors.



tabzer said:


> All surveys are targeted, which was the point.  The criteria was physicians.


The topic of conversation was that medical professionals broadly agree that the COVID-19 vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended, so of course I am going to use a survey of medical professionals. Did you have a point?



tabzer said:


> Nuh-uh.


It is verifiable fact that unvaccinated people are far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19. I have already provided evidence for these facts. If you are going to argue that these statements are wrong, you must provide evidence.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Going with what the majority of doctors say helps iron out any fake doctors that are spreading lies. And also irons out any data that might have used bad methodology. @Lilith Valentine has continuously asked for sources which you fail to provide. Giving sources will help with looking at the methodology of the study, researchers often put short comings in their studies and we can better see if the research is usable or not.



What claims do you want sources for?  I've asked a couple times already.  The CDC corroborates that the vaccines have risks and the long term effects are unknown.  I think that is the most radical thing I have stated.

Moral dilemma maybe what you are talking about.  The CDC has not said that it is is a moral imperative to get the vaccine.  There is no evidence that there is.


----------



## MetoMeto (Jul 13, 2021)

MMX said:


> what is your alternative? people dying and shops going bankrupt?


That attitude is whats wrong with todays world imo. Nothing against you though, but that attitude.
Forcing and blaming others is no way to anything good.
Informative and logical arguments, a lot of evidence, talks and promotion of good habits and education is the way imo.
Forcing and blaming? Not at all.
Free choice, even the wrong one is a choice, everything else is north korea. Simple as that.

But its good to have debates over this though. Nice topic.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> What claims do you want sources for?  I've asked a couple times already.  The CDC corroborates that the vaccines have risks and the long term effects are unknown.  I think that is the most radical thing I have stated.


The CDC also acknowledges that the serious risks associated with the vaccines are extraordinarily rare, and they acknowledge the risks of long-term effects are highly unlikely. Please do not misrepresent the CDC.

One radical think you said was when you claimed unvaccinated people are not far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19.



tabzer said:


> The CDC has not said that it is is a moral imperative to get the vaccine.  There is no evidence that there is.


The CDC has not explicitly said there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated, but they and the broader medical community have provided enough evidence that there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 13, 2021)

antifa had its start in Germany.


----------



## MetoMeto (Jul 13, 2021)

MMX said:


> why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory


You're absolutely right!


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The use of the survey was relevant and was not ridiculous. I am sorry if the results of the survey are inconvenient for you.



The misrepresenting of the survey was ridiculous.  I did nothing to contest the results. 



Lacius said:


> I am from the United States.



And I've mentioned that the vaccine appreciation in Japan is not so high several times now, a point I have made several times now in response to your 96% figure.



Lacius said:


> Did you have a point?



That physicians are physicians even if you don't like them.



Lacius said:


> It is verifiable fact that unvaccinated people are far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19. I have already provided evidence for these facts. If you are going to argue that these statements are wrong, you must provide evidence.



Statistical approaches are nice, but they don't embody an individual's choices.  Not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> antifa had its start in Germany.


Antifa started in opposition to fascism and Nazism. This is also off-topic.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The CDC has not explicitly said there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated, but they and the broader medical community have provided enough evidence that there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated



That's your conclusion.  Don't confuse it with facts.



Lacius said:


> One radical think you said was when you claimed unvaccinated people are not far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19.



I said that not getting vaccinated doesn't increase odds.  The odds only decrease if you get vaccinated.

That's logical fact.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The misrepresenting of the survey was ridiculous.  I did nothing to contest the results.


I am glad then that you acknowledge the data from the survey that shows broad support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community.



tabzer said:


> And I've mentioned that the vaccine appreciation in Japan is not so high several times now, a point I have made several times now in response to your 96% figure.


I am unaware of any data that suggests doctors and/or medical agencies in Japan are broadly opposed to the COVID-19 vaccines. If you have a specific point to make, make it and provide evidence for it.

The fact remains that virtually every reputable medical agency I am aware of acknowledges the COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective, and they recommend vaccination.



tabzer said:


> That physicians are physicians even if you don't like them.


I didn't argue that some physicians aren't physicians just because I don't like them. I argued that citing the results of a survey from a small cherry-picked group of physicians doesn't demonstrate anything meaningful, and it doesn't contradict anything I've said. As far as anybody can tell, the results of the survey you cited can be true (and are even likely to be true) even if 96% of all doctors in the United States have been vaccinated and support COVID-19 vaccination.

In other words, given the nature of your survey and the group it comes from, its results are irrelevant even if true.



tabzer said:


> Not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.


It is a fact that deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting and embracing relatively higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus.



tabzer said:


> That's your conclusion.  Don't confuse it with facts.


It's both my conclusion and a fact.



tabzer said:


> I said that not getting vaccinated doesn't increase odds.  The odds only decrease if you get vaccinated.


When I said, "Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus," you said, "nuh uh."

Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting and embracing relatively higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus. That is a fact, and that is what makes choosing to be unvaccinated an immoral choice. It's also a stupid choice, considering vaccination is also in your own best interest. Do you disagree that deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting and embracing relatively higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus?

It is verifiable fact that unvaccinated people are far more likely than their vaccinated counterparts to contract COVID-19, suffer severe illness after contracting COVID-19, die from COVID-19, and spread COVID-19.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 13, 2021)

Dear god you guys are still trying to discuss with that individual, I'm impressed.
It's quite clear they won't change as the only thing they ever were able to say on this thread is "absence of facts" and "your conclusions," along with very very "alt facts" sources the very few times they ever linked something.
It's clear they have no understanding of how vaccines work, which has been how they worked for as long as they exist. They have no idea what "prevention" is, and spread misinformation here based on false claims that all "beliefs" are equal when clearly, one that puts more people in danger than its competitors is morally wrong. 
For my part, I'll let them play victims and claim they are being coerced or bullied or whatever, if they really were they wouldn't be here to claim it, they'd take actual actions. Love you for trying to beat some sense into people like that though, it's clearly commendable <3


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Dear god you guys are still trying to discuss with that individual, I'm impressed.
> It's quite clear they won't change as the only thing they ever were able to say on this thread is "absence of facts" and "your conclusions," along with very very "alt facts" sources the very few times they ever linked something.
> It's clear they have no understanding of how vaccines work, which has been how they worked for as long as they exist. They have no idea what "prevention" is, and spread misinformation here based on false claims that all "beliefs" are equal when clearly, one that puts more people in danger than its competitors is morally wrong.
> For my part, I'll let them play victims and claim they are being coerced or bullied or whatever, if they really were they wouldn't be here to claim it, they'd take actual actions. Love you for trying to beat some sense into people like that though, it's clearly commendable <3


I do not respond to @tabzer for tabzer's sake. I respond to tabzer for everyone else who has the misfortune of reading what tabzer posts.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> No one is going to force you to stop being stupid


Neither to you.



ut2k4master said:


> you really sound like a stable genius and not crazy at all...


Takes one to know one.


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I didn't conceal anything.



As previously stated, tabzer *concealed* the size disparity between AMA and the "demographic" he chose to source, fallaciously presenting AAPS as an equivalent sized voice.


tabzer said:


> Lacius used a single survey to suggest that 96% physicians have taken and recommend the vaccine.  That simply isn't true nor is it a natural conclusion based on facts. I responded with a survey with different physicians showing different results and made no claim about the size of the bandwagon--only that it was irresponsible to make broad claims based on a survey that you saw..


As previously stated, tabzer responded with a survey from the wacky right-wing AAPS, an organization that* is not recognized as credible* by the medical community and barred from major medical indexes; thus, it's surveys aren't recognized as credible or representative of most physicians.


tabzer said:


> You initially discredited the survey of physicians because you didn't like those physicians, which is literally cherry picking facts.  After being called out on it, you are working overtime to save face.  Sorry, but I find nothing in your response that supports the initial false claim of misrepresenting the meaning of a single survey.  If @Lacius can support his claim with real evidence, then tat would be interesting..


The AAPS is a *statistically irrelevant* organization that pushes junk science.  Their "survey" is not relevant in any way shape or form.  Their survey is not a credible counter-point to the AMA survey.  tabzer pushes their survey, not because it's relevant, but because it's the *only* rebuttal he could dig up on Google.  It's quite sad, really.

Lacius brought up multiple disturbing allegations regarding AAPS; tabzer *ignored them all*.  I brought up multiple disturbing allegations regarding the AAPS; tabzer* ignored them all*.  It's been clear from the beginning that tabzer's goal is to *gaslight* the topic -- not to have a discussion while forming conclusions based on science, honesty, and common sense.


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Takes one to know one.


cool meme response


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I am glad then that you agree with me that they survey shows broad support for the COVID-19 vaccines from the medical community.



The survey shows, maybe, a broad innoculation of doctors that have membership.  Nothing to do with recommendation, which you inserted.  Not demonstrated to be free of coercion either.



Lacius said:


> I didn't argue that some physicians aren't physicians just because I don't like them. I argued that citing the results of a survey from a small cherry-picked group of physicians doesn't demonstrate anything meaningful, and it doesn't contradict anything I've said. As far as anybody can tell, the results of the survey you cited can be true (and are even likely to be true) even if 96% of all doctors in the United States have been vaccinated and support COVID-19 vaccination.



Right all of that *could* be true, but I'm still waiting for the evidence.



Lacius said:


> It's both my conclusion and a fact.



Your conclusion is not a fact.



Lacius said:


> Deliberately and willfully being unvaccinated is deliberately and willfully accepting higher base odds of contracting and spreading the virus



I am glad that you agree with me that not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> cool meme response


thx brah


----------



## LumInvader (Jul 13, 2021)

Hey Lacius,

I believe tabzer may be trying to hypnotize us.


----------



## notimp (Jul 13, 2021)

regnad said:


> Why are you calling covid an influenza virus? While both corona viruses and influenza viruses use RNA, a shit ton of viruses use RNA, including HIV and Ebola, which thankfully both have very low mutation rates. Influenza viruses are elipsoidal Orthomyxoviridae, and corona viruses are ball-shaped Orthocoronavirinae. They are unrelated viruses. You cannot draw any conclusions about corona virus mutation rates by comparing them to influenza viruses.


I bunched them together because of mutation dynamics (droplet / aerosol bound propagation path, and relatively high case infection rates > leads to the need of annual/semi annual changes in vaccine candidates).

I've learned more than a year ago, that this would be a dynamic we'd have to deal with, that would be similar to influenza pandemics.

If that made me bunch them together as 'the same' by accident, I welcome the correction.  But this is what I tried to express.

edit: Just checked, I bunched them in as 'the same', and thats wrong.  So thank you for the correction.

edit2: Added a correction to the initial posting.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 13, 2021)

LumInvader said:


> As previously stated, tabzer *concealed* the size disparity between AMA and the "demographic" he chose to source, fallaciously presenting AAPS as an equivalent sized voice.
> 
> As previously stated, tabzer responded with a survey from the wacky right-wing AAPS, an organization that* is not recognized as credible* by the medical community and barred from major medical indexes; thus, it's surveys aren't recognized as credible or representative of most physicians.
> 
> ...



Hi Lum.  Do you just want to tell me that some physicians are not physicians or did you want to write a wall-of-text pretending that isn't what you are doing.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Neither to you.
> 
> 
> Takes one to know one.


Nah, dude. There’s a huge difference between someone listening to medical professionals vs someone who thinks being asked to consider the health of others is “forcing them.” No one is forcing you to get the vaccine but that doesn’t mean people should respect you nor your action. It also doesn’t mean that you are free from being criticized and being called out on your stupidity. Simply put, anti-vaxxors are stupid and they are a massive problem. Diseases that were once considered rare or even nearly eliminated have started to spread again because of anti-vaxxors. Covid is still spreading because people are refusing to get the vaccines. Anti-vaxxors are dangerous idiots who are deliberately ignoring actual professionals because they believe some stupid conspiracy they heard about on YouTube or something stupid like that.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The survey shows, maybe, a broad innoculation of doctors that have membership.


Which was my point.



tabzer said:


> Nothing to do with recommendation


It doesn't have "nothing" to do with recommendation, and there are other surveys that do explicitly mention recommendation and comport with my previously mentioned numbers.



tabzer said:


> Right all of that *could* be true, but I'm still waiting for the evidence.


I have already demonstrated that your survey data is cherry-picked and only shows the views of an already cherry-picked group that is political, and predisposed to being against vaccinations, not medical. I have also already demonstrated that your numbers comport with the data I have already provided. In other words, according to the AMA survey I've provided, approximately 4% of doctors have not been vaccinated yet, and every member of your fringe right-wing political advocacy group (vaccinated or not) could fit in that 4% with room to spare.

You should also reread the post by @LumInvader about how your posts have been in bad-faith with regard to the topic of the 
Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, because he was very specific, and I could not have put it better myself.



tabzer said:


> Your conclusion is not a fact.


Something is not a fact automatically just because it is my conclusion, but in this case, my conclusion is a fact. If you want to argue why it isn't a fact and provide evidence for your argument, instead of replying "nuh uh" over and over again, please let me know. 



tabzer said:


> I am glad that you agree with me that not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.


Willfully being unvaccinated is willfully accepting higher odds of contracting and spreading the virus. It is willfully allowing an increased spread of the virus.



tabzer said:


> Hi Lum.  Do you just want to tell me that some physicians are not physicians or did you want to write a wall-of-text pretending that isn't what you are doing.


He never said anybody wasn't a physician, and he made a lot of really good points about your bad-faith arguments. If all you're going to do is ignore us when we counter your claims, there probably isn't any reason to keep this conversation going. I'm going to assume that means you've conceded our points, or that they're too hard for you to refute (which in a way is a tacit concession).


----------



## notimp (Jul 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I am glad that you agree with me that not getting vaccinated is not deliberately and willfully allowing the spread of viruses.


I think you read that wrong... It definitely is.

Its just that we can and will only employ peer pressure and not 'actual pressure' to convince you societally.

Actual pressure, if you work in the medical field, maybe. (Get shot, or loose job.) Outside that - not very likely.



tabzer said:


> Do you just want to tell me that some physicians are not physicians or did you want to write a wall-of-text pretending that isn't what you are doing.


He only wants to go a step further, in explaining to you, that you dont end arguments with 'a physician said so'.

Especially not  - if you 'do a survey of physicians'. All you get in that case even in the most perfect of circumstances is an 'expert intuition'. Which is another word for 'an opinion based on a feeling'. If you are immersing yourself in a field for a long time, you start to produce shortcuts in thinking, based on prior experiences you had. Thats what you call 'expert intuition' (and sometimes even expert opinion), and its basically a quick way of coming to a judgement, which interestingly is shown to be wrong quite often - in about 50%  of the cases or so.

So then you take that, and ask people, that maybe arent experts in virology. And people in the 'fringe science club against vaccinations, because of religious (or personal  ) believes. And then you publish that. And then you've covered all opinions equally.  Being 'a physician' doesnt mean, you are thorough all the time, rational, all the time, free of moral imperatives and unfailing. Its just a title.

So you have other structures to hopefully reach better judgement odds than 50/50, by f.e. making sure they are immersed in their fields and thorough, by telling them that they have their work peer reviewed. And you have 'pressures' called scientific canon - which means that thats what the majority that makes up the curriculum (= the stuff that is taught in medical school) believes. That also has its own problems and biases. (Mostly when someone comes along that pronounces "you are wrong entirely", and is correct..  But if they are actually correct, and published, other scholars usually should get interested in proving or disproving their theories, because - hey at least its interesting, and you can make a name for yourself doing so.) That said 'vaccinations are dangerous, and dont work' is not a perspective that is in that position. 

At all.

On an individual level, from someone who experienced people with heavy side effects as a result maybe. But all that does is bring us into the discussion about 'statistical safety' vs. 'individual safety'. And statistical safety always wins out - if it produces more (societal) good than harm. But the individual risk, is on the individual. (We just tell you how likely the risk is (one in thousand, one in a million, ..)).  The individual has to make the decision. (In western democracies.)

So before becoming a wall of text.

The next question to the argument you bring is - what physicians did you ask (then producing evidence regarding whether they are legitimate representatives of the majority view or not (canon)), and why did you ask them for opinions anyhow? You can ask them for studies instead. (More concise and better odds of being correct, than 'expert opinion'). As the question you are asking is not abstract, and can be answered through studies and not surveys.


Or in short - the "I asked people in white coats, and this is what they said" argument usually is frowned upon (in science), if not attached to a system that makes sure, they put real effort in their answer and are not telling you the first thing that comes to mind.

And 'cherrypicking' is a valid counter - because for surveys to have any value at all, you cant just only ask the people in the 'skeptical fringe communities'. In addition to opinion surveys being problematic in the first place.


edit:

I'm roughly referencing Kahneman, btw.  (Among others) Here, watch this:


Which for some reason is on amazons youtube channel, because they are flogging social responsibility or something.. 

edit: Oh, because they are mangling the actual argument Kahneman makes - normally he doesnt end with 'try to find experts to provide guidance... . He goes into this: https://www.thinkadvisor.com/2018/1...-trust-your-intuition-even-for-stock-picking/


edit2: Also read this if you are interested: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-we-rely-on-our-intuition/


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 13, 2021)

MetoMeto said:


> You're absolutely right!



I really hope the Vaccines are safe as EVERYBODY says..
I really hope it for all Females/Girls or whatever....
I really hope they (can) get Children one Day....
I really hope there are no Side Effects....
I really,really hope it from the Bottom of my Heart for you all and your coming Childs............





But on the Other Side:

You can make it Mandatory to "dispose" malformed and terminally ill Children.....

Oh,yes,please......now cry a little about this Statement......




.....please think beforehand before you make things mandatory.....


----------



## MMX (Jul 13, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> antifa had its start in Germany.



this'll lead you eventually to the one truth.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I do not respond to @tabzer for tabzer's sake. I respond to tabzer for everyone else who has the misfortune of reading what tabzer posts.


The evidence and sources you link is very helpful for people who aren't tabzer. Especially people who are in good faith and haven't put aside time to research this topic and we're iffy about it in the beginning. It made them more comfortable on the safety of the vaccine and also other good reasons on why people should get vaccinated and how unvaccinated people are bad for the people around them. Your comments is more for them then for Tabzer. 

Without Tabzer then your comments in extreme detail wouldn't have happened so in a way Tabzer is helping pushing more people to be comfortable with the covid vaccine. Their crazines is getting people to think I don't want to be like this idiot i'm getting the vaccine.


----------



## notimp (Jul 13, 2021)

MMX said:


> this'll lead you eventually to the one truth.


There is no 'the one truth'.

But I think of 'antifa' (in the US) as a phenomenon in the US that (if they are visible in the form of protests, at all), is mostly limited to two states, where a bunch of young people migrated to because of rent (becoming to high) pressures, and that then dont had the best economic growth projections. So social unrest potential as well, but not on the right wing.

And because its so flipping limited in attaining public visibility at all -- arguably it even more so is a scarecrow, right wingers might put in front of your window, to convince you that 'mainstream ideology is in danger' - to then move you to the ideological fringes as well.. 
Name me one instance, where 'antifa' actually mattered or produced something of lasting societal value, or gain in mindshare in the US.

Or is this just the fringes hitting themselves over their heads over who is the right type of radical?

'Antifa' might become more important, if the US chooses to become more authoritarian again. But even thats highly doubtful, and probably mostly scaretactics employed by teenagers..


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Nah, dude. There’s a huge difference between someone listening to medical professionals vs someone who thinks being asked to consider the health of others is “forcing them.” No one is forcing you to get the vaccine but that doesn’t mean people should respect you nor your action. It also doesn’t mean that you are free from being criticized and being called out on your stupidity. Simply put, anti-vaxxors are stupid and they are a massive problem. Diseases that were once considered rare or even nearly eliminated have started to spread again because of anti-vaxxors. Covid is still spreading because people are refusing to get the vaccines. Anti-vaxxors are dangerous idiots who are deliberately ignoring actual professionals because they believe some stupid conspiracy they heard about on YouTube or something stupid like that.


Because you and others here have the moral authority and high ground to judge others actions and opinions. Gotcha. You can disagree with others actions, but that still doesn't mean your actions are the right ones either. All I know is, is that if people like you disagree with my way of doing things it means I'm going in the right direction.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Because you and others here have the moral authority and high ground to judge others actions and opinions. Gotcha. You can disagree with others actions, but that still doesn't mean your actions are the right ones either. All I know is, is that if people like you disagree with my way of doing things it means I'm going in the right direction.


Your opinions are based on misinformation and pseudoscience that is causing the death of countless people who are unfortunate enough to be exposed to anti-vaxxors. This isn't just disagreeing on how much cream goes into coffee, this is disagreeing with your moronic actions that have the possibility of killing other people. But you know, I am going to ask you to provide a good and evidence-backed reason as to why you should be respected? Do you have evidence to prove that being against vaccines isn't a harmful practice?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Because you and others here have the moral authority and high ground to judge others actions and opinions. Gotcha. You can disagree with others actions, but that still doesn't mean your actions are the right ones either. All I know is, is that if people like you disagree with my way of doing things it means I'm going in the right direction.


This has nothing to do with authority or high ground. It can be demonstrated that people who choose not to get vaccinated are willfully increasing the odds of getting sick and spreading sickness to others, potentially (and actually) killing people.


----------



## RedBlueGreen (Jul 13, 2021)

I got vaccinated and I saw a pop up window that sad "Microsoft would like to know your location". I also have the sudden urge to get Game Pass, a Series S and Series X, and get Windows 11 Pro and Enterprise.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Your opinions are based on misinformation and pseudoscience that is causing the death of countless people who are unfortunate enough to be exposed to anti-vaxxors. This isn't just disagreeing on how much cream goes into coffee, this is disagreeing with your moronic actions that have the possibility of killing other people. But you know, I am going to ask you to provide a good and evidence-backed reason as to why you should be respected? Do you have evidence to prove that being against vaccines isn't a harmful practice?


All I said was you can't make people take vaccines or do stuff they don't want to do because we all have basic human rights. I don't think I said why, I just said people don't have to because it's their choice and even if you wanna judge that, that still doesn't mean your position is automatically right because you disagree with one's actions. I wasn't looking for a debate (for now), just pointing out basic human rights is all.



Lacius said:


> This has nothing to do with authority or high ground. It can be demonstrated that people who choose not to get vaccinated are willfully increasing the odds of getting sick and spreading sickness to others, potentially (and actually) killing people.


Oh boo hoo hoo. People die everyday from plenty of other things, to car accidents to other diseases, so the goddamn king flu isn't a unique case where very few people die from it anyway. "B-b-b-b-but it's preventable with the vaccine." So is falling down the stairs and breaking your neck but that also happens to people anyway. You can't control every little thing and belittle people for not following your rhetoric.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> so the goddamn king flu isn't a unique case where very few people die from it anyway.


607,000 deaths
33.9M cases.
United states. Alone. Those numbers aren't adding the entirety of the worldwide.

This ignores any of the long term issues from getting covid 19 for those who do survive, such as your lungs functioning worse than smoker, loss of taste and smell. Car crashes only 6 million occur, and total deaths is  36,096.
To put that in perspective. 607K from covid ranks higher than the second leading cause of death in the United states in 2019. Which is cancer.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
Think twice before you go saying very few people die from it.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Reual said:


> 607,000 deaths
> 33.9M cases.
> United states. Alone. Those numbers aren't adding the entirety of the world wide.
> 
> ...


Considering the world wide 7 billion population, even if you add world wide deaths, which is 4 million I think (and god knows how much that is a lie, if you die from a car crash but have covid they still say it's covid), 4 million vs. 7 billion, um yes, that's still very few people.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> All I said was you can't make people take vaccines or do stuff they don't want to do because we all have basic human rights. I don't think I said why, I just said people don't have to because it's their choice and even if you wanna judge that, that still doesn't mean your position is automatically right because you disagree with one's actions. I wasn't looking for a debate (for now), just pointing out basic human rights is all.
> 
> 
> Oh boo hoo hoo. People die everyday from plenty of other things, to car accidents to other diseases, so the goddamn king flu isn't a unique case where very few people die from it anyway. "B-b-b-b-but it's preventable with the vaccine." So is falling down the stairs and breaking your neck but that also happens to people anyway. You can't control every little thing and belittle people for not following your rhetoric.


"People die everyday, so there's no point in trying to stop hundreds of thousands (or millions) of preventable American deaths." It's hard to believe you're being serious. By your logic, why even have seatbelts?


----------



## SG854 (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> All I said was you can't make people take vaccines or do stuff they don't want to do because we all have basic human rights. I don't think I said why, I just said people don't have to because it's their choice and even if you wanna judge that, that still doesn't mean your position is automatically right because you disagree with one's actions. I wasn't looking for a debate (for now), just pointing out basic human rights is all.
> 
> 
> Oh boo hoo hoo. People die everyday from plenty of other things, to car accidents to other diseases, so the goddamn king flu isn't a unique case where very few people die from it anyway. "B-b-b-b-but it's preventable with the vaccine." So is falling down the stairs and breaking your neck but that also happens to people anyway. You can't control every little thing and belittle people for not following your rhetoric.


Some of those car accidents are avoidable. We can belittle and shame drunk drivers. It is their fault that people die.

We can draw similarities to drunk driving and people refusing to get the vaccine. They are both putting other people at risk in a situation that is avoidable.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> "People die everyday, so there's no point in trying to stop hundreds of thousands (or millions) of preventable American deaths." It's hard to believe you're being serious. By your logic, why even have seatbelts?





SG854 said:


> Some of those car accidents are avoidable. We can belittle and shame drunk drivers. It is their fault that people die.
> 
> We can draw similarities to drunk driving and people refusing to get the vaccine. They are both putting other people at risk in a situation that is avoidable.


Is it avoidable, and you can take steps to prevent a lot of disasters, but you can never completely stop them or predict the unpredictable. You can control events up to a point, but don't get hung up on trying to control every little thing.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Considering the world wide 7 billion population, even if you add world wide deaths, which is 4 million I think (and god knows how much that is a lie, if you die from a car crash but have covid they still say it's covid), 4 million vs. 7 billion, um yes, that's still very few people.


Whichever way you slice it, 4 million deaths is a lot of death, and that's with COVID-19 mitigation like masks, physical distancing, and (more recently) vaccines. Without masks, physical distancing, and vaccines, the number of worldwide deaths might be closer to 80 million.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



BitMasterPlus said:


> Is it avoidable, and you can take steps to prevent a lot of disasters, but you can never completely stop them or predict the unpredictable. You can control events up to a point, but don't get hung up on trying to control every little thing.


You're right. Some deaths are unavoidable and unpredictable. That doesn't apply, however, to current COVID-19 deaths.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Whichever way you slice it, 4 million deaths is a lot of death, and that's with COVID-19 mitigation like masks, physical distancing, and (more recently) vaccines. Without masks, physical distancing, and vaccines, the number of worldwide deaths might be closer to 80 million.


Yeah I don't think so bud, and although it is sad 4 million people supposedly died (I know people died from the disease, but considering how politicized th


Lacius said:


> Whichever way you slice it, 4 million deaths is a lot of death, and that's with COVID-19 mitigation like masks, physical distancing, and (more recently) vaccines. Without masks, physical distancing, and vaccines, the number of worldwide deaths might be closer to 80 million.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Yeah I don't think so bud, and although it is sad 4 million people supposedly died (I know people died from the disease, but considering how politicized this disease has been from day 1 and how much cover ups have been going on, I'm not going to really commit to that 4 million estimate) but to say it would be 80 million deaths is hysterical and laughable at best. And it can and does apply to current chinese virus deaths. Get your feeling out of it since you rely so much on your version of science and facts.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Yeah I don't think so bud, and although it is sad 4 million people supposedly died (I know people died from the disease, but considering how politicized th
> 
> Yeah I don't think so bud, and although it is sad 4 million people supposedly died (I know people died from the disease, but considering how politicized this disease has been from day 1 and how much cover ups have been going on, I'm not going to really commit to that 4 million estimate) but to say it would be 80 million deaths is hysterical and laughable at best. And it can and does apply to current chinese virus deaths. Get your feeling out of it since you rely so much on your version of science and facts.


No one calls it the Chinese Virus. It just sounds weird hearing or reading that. Get with the times. No one has called it the Chinese Virus in a long time.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Yeah I don't think so bud, and although it is sad 4 million people supposedly died (I know people died from the disease, but considering how politicized th
> 
> Yeah I don't think so bud, and although it is sad 4 million people supposedly died (I know people died from the disease, but considering how politicized this disease has been from day 1 and how much cover ups have been going on, I'm not going to really commit to that 4 million estimate) but to say it would be 80 million deaths is hysterical and laughable at best. And it can and does apply to current chinese virus deaths. Get your feeling out of it since you rely so much on your version of science and facts.


There is no evidence of widespread misreporting of COVID-19 deaths, and there are no examples I'm aware of that include someone "getting COVID-19 and then dying in a car crash" being counted as a COVID-19 death. The 4 million number is the closest thing to a correct number that we have, and it could be larger.

The world population is approximately 8 billion. Given the death rate is approximately 1 in 100, that comes out to about 80 million deaths if the virus is allowed to spread unchecked.

Please do not complain about the pandemic being politicized when the former president is the one who politicized. There is no reason for medicine and science to be politicized.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

SG854 said:


> No one calls it the Chinese Virus. It just sounds weird hearing or reading that. Get with the times. No one has called it the Chinese Virus in a long time.


Chinese virus.



Lacius said:


> There is no evidence of widespread misreporting of COVID-19 deaths, and there are no examples I'm aware of that include someone "getting COVID-19 and then dying in a car crash" being counted as a COVID-19 death. The 4 million number is the closest thing to a correct number that we have, and it could be larger.
> 
> The world population is approximately 8 billion. Given the death rate is approximately 1 in 100, that comes out to about 80 million deaths if the virus is allowed to spread unchecked.
> 
> Please do not complain about the pandemic being politicized when the former president is the one who politicized. There is no reason for medicine and science to be politicized.


Look at Dr. Fauci as an prime example at this virus being politicized. President Trump didn't politicize it, the left did. Nancy Pelosi knew about the virus and told everyone to go outside to Chinatown and ignore the virus, only weeks later to change her tune.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Chinese virus.
> 
> 
> Look at Dr. Fauci as an prime example at this virus being politicized. President Trump didn't politicize it, the left did. Nancy Pelosi knew about the virus and told everyone to go outside to Chinatown and ignore the virus, only weeks later to change her tune.


How did Dr. Fauci politicize anything?

Pelosi didn't engage in politicizing the virus. She attempted to de-escalate anti-Asian sentiments.

The United States utterly mishandled the pandemic. 4% of the world's population, but about 25% of worldwide cases and deaths. If anything, it should be called the Trump Mumps.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> How did Dr. Fauci politicize anything?
> 
> Pelosi didn't engage in politicizing the virus. She attempted to de-escalate anti-Asian sentiments.
> 
> The United States utterly mishandled the pandemic. 4% of the world's population, but about 25% of worldwide cases and deaths. If anything, it should be called the Trump Mumps.






And that's just the beginnin. He funded the lab where the virus originated as shown in the leaked emails, he flip flopped on masks saying it'll only stop a dropplet at most but it's not effective, then saying you need to wear a mask to stop it, then wear 2 masks. Virus' are microscopic and can go through the smallest of holes through the mask. I mean,if the mask were to stop the virus, it would have to be made so you wouldn't be able to breathe since if air can slip through the mask a virus can easily as well.

And if Pelosi wanted to "de-escalate anti-Asian sentiments", which wasn't the case, she failed big time since even today Asians are getting brutally attacked int he streets.

For you to believe this was all Trumps fault and nobody else's is misguided and foolish and blind to the fact that all the other politicians pretty much fucked up and blame it on Trump and reminds me why I stopped debating against people like you. People never wanna believe the truth and are too stupid, ignorant, and stubborn to see otherwise.


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And that's just the beginnin. He funded the lab where the virus originated as shown in the leaked emails, he flip flopped on masks saying it'll only stop a dropplet at most but it's not effective, then saying you need to wear a mask to stop it, then wear 2 masks. Virus' are microscopic and can go through the smallest of holes through the mask. I mean,if the mask were to stop the virus, it would have to be made so you wouldn't be able to breathe since if air can slip through the mask a virus can easily as well.
> 
> And if Pelosi wanted to "de-escalate anti-Asian sentiments", which wasn't the case, she failed big time since even today Asians are getting brutally attacked int he streets.
> 
> For you to believe this was all Trumps fault and nobody else's is misguided and foolish and blind to the fact that all the other politicians pretty much fucked up and blame it on Trump and reminds me why I stopped debating against people like you. People never wanna believe the truth and are too stupid, ignorant, and stubborn to see otherwise.




oy vey, nothing but idiotic conspiracy theories from you...
and that last sentence is grade a irony coming from you


----------



## Lacius (Jul 13, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And that's just the beginnin. He funded the lab where the virus originated as shown in the leaked emails, he flip flopped on masks saying it'll only stop a dropplet at most but it's not effective, then saying you need to wear a mask to stop it, then wear 2 masks. Virus' are microscopic and can go through the smallest of holes through the mask. I mean,if the mask were to stop the virus, it would have to be made so you wouldn't be able to breathe since if air can slip through the mask a virus can easily as well.
> 
> And if Pelosi wanted to "de-escalate anti-Asian sentiments", which wasn't the case, she failed big time since even today Asians are getting brutally attacked int he streets.
> 
> For you to believe this was all Trumps fault and nobody else's is misguided and foolish and blind to the fact that all the other politicians pretty much fucked up and blame it on Trump and reminds me why I stopped debating against people like you. People never wanna believe the truth and are too stupid, ignorant, and stubborn to see otherwise.



There's a lot to debunk here, so everyone forgive me if I miss something.

Fauci said masks probably weren't helpful back when we weren't convinced anything other than medical grade masks were helpful, but as our understanding changed, Fauci said so. There was also concern that citizens would deplete medical grade masks, since those were the only ones confirmed to be effective at the time, when medical professionals needed them most. I can't think of a more intellectually honest position than to go where the evidence goes. That's a feature of medical science, not a bug.

The COVID-19 virus usually transfers from person to person via droplets of saliva, which masks are able to block. A mask doesn't have to block transference at the atomic level in order to be effective (and respectfully, that's a ridiculous suggestion). A virus is many times bigger than oxygen molecules, and saliva droplets are many times bigger than a virus. Cheap disposable masks and cloth masks are at least 50% effective at preventing infected saliva droplets from transferring from person to person, and that number jumps quite a bit with two masks on top of each other. That number is also higher with better masks.

If you don't like wearing masks, get vaccinated. It's as simple as that. The vaccines are 80-95% effective against COVID-19, which is better than the protection you get with a mask, and the CDC guidance is that you don't have to wear a mask in most situations if you are fully vaccinated. It's a win-win.

The only person who politicized the virus was the former president. He downplayed it and ridiculed mitigation techniques like masks for political gain.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There's a lot to debunk here, so everyone forgive me if I miss something.
> 
> Fauci said masks probably weren't helpful back when we weren't convinced anything other than medical grade masks were helpful, but as our understanding changed, Fauci said so. There was also concern that citizens would deplete medical grade masks, since those were the only ones confirmed to be effective at the time, when medical professionals needed them most. I can't think of a more intellectually honest position than to go where the evidence goes. That's a feature of medical science, not a bug.
> 
> ...


And this is why this thread is a failure. Because people like @Lacius present the logic, and other people downplay it as if they have a medical degree.

We have the evidence.

Stop crying about a vaccine.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Dr. Lacius? said:


> Fauci said masks probably weren't helpful back when we weren't convinced anything other than medical grade masks were helpful, but as our understanding changed, Fauci said so. There was also concern that citizens would deplete medical grade masks, since those were the only ones confirmed to be effective at the time, when medical professionals needed them most. I can't think of a more intellectually honest position than to go where the evidence goes. That's a feature of medical science, not a bug.



In the "highly unlikely" situation that your institutions fail you and people face mass side-effects of the vaccine, we can then stop taking the vaccine.

"That's a feature of inherited Nazi medical science, not a bug."

Meanwhile, people have the right to choose their physician based on their preferences--which include both doctor's who recommend the vaccine and those who don't.

Bandwagoning and false dilemmas are straight from the propagandist's playbook. "Choose the vaccine or you are killing people" is a false dilemma.


----------



## WG481 (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> In the "highly unlikely" situation that your institutions fail you and people face mass side-effects of the vaccine, we can then stop taking the vaccine.
> 
> "That's a feature of inherited Nazi medical science, not a bug."
> 
> ...


Refer to my former posts.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

Oh did we reach godwin point again? Man that was fast... Guess I shouldn't be surprised coming from someone who spreads misinformation about medical science and vaccines, and speaks the most stupid things about how you can "choose" to believe differently when things are scientifically proven, should I?


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Meanwhile, people have the right to choose their physician based on their preferences--which include both doctor's who recommend the vaccine and those who don't.


96% of US physicians are vaccinated.

But you demand, to be able to stick to choice and chose to listen to one, that not only isnt, but also promotes an anti vaxxer stance, based on an argument you arent telling us. But you insist, that this is the freedom you are supposed to have.

But you dont see the fallacy of demanding to chose a physician based on grounds that he will tell you something you want to hear. Without telling us why you want to hear that.

Is it side effects? 1:700.000 chance of blood cloths being caused by an mRNA vaccine, 1:3.000.000 chance of Guillain-Barré-Syndrom when vaccinated with the J&J vaccine. Oh, and never read the package insert of any medicament, because at least in the EU afair you only have to list sideeffects there that at least occur with 1:10.000 probability. (Didnt double check, might be wrong.).

Loss of freedom to choose? We are only telling you that you are an Idiot, that just told people, they have the right to choose the physician that gives them the diagnosis they want to hear.

We arent forcing you to go out to get it. We are just limiting your activism, by pointing out - that you'd  go with 'because we have to protect the constitution', if you had the chance.

The issue with religious believes is, that its hard to disprove them. Same with moral imperatives.

We always end up with 'everyone should have the right to choose', yes, but not necessarily based on the BS you are feeding them.

Based on principal, sure. But no one is taking that away anyhow. We just have a person flogging an anti vaxxer opinion, based on arguments you aren voicing very clearly - but instead are rectifying by you 'protecting' a rather abstract principle like freedom, or choice, or...

Against what threat? And if you arent just protecting your personsal believes, but try to convince others on grounds of referring to abstract concepts, you are telling people at the same time are under risk of getting taken from them.. Well then thats a believe - which you are flogging on a forum frequented by underage people, showing time and time again, that you cant fathom being wrong, on anything.

Your retorts are rhetoric. And not even the good kind, but the bad kind, where you are the unfailable deciple, of the one good believe, that doenst make a difference weiter 96% of physicians are for or against a thing, as long as you can chose one, that will tell you what you want to hear.

Is that how you think arguing works also?

edit: Also to address your fear of 'being forced'. there is a very good reason, why we aren forcing you. And that is that it isnt entirely risk free (nothing is), but risk is very, very low. (Listening to reports of the doctors and hospitals, not the manufacturer.) But it isnt without risk. And I think no one in here would be willing to shoulder the responsibility of convincing you to take it, and then getting stuck with a very unlikely side effect, This is why the decision will always sit with you and with you alone.

Despite maybe, if you are working in the medical field, and you have to weigh that agains the direct risk you could inflict on a system. As an individual, no one is taking the choice away from you. There might be repercussions as for any behavior or choice you are making, that might be impacting others, but even that is not very likely.


----------



## AsPika2219 (Jul 14, 2021)

FINALLY!!! I have completed 2 doses vaccines!


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> In the "highly unlikely" situation that your institutions fail you and people face mass side-effects of the vaccine, we can then stop taking the vaccine.


There is very little risk of any serious side effects from the vaccines. The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.



tabzer said:


> Meanwhile, people have the right to choose their physician based on their preferences--which include both doctor's who recommend the vaccine and those who don't.


It's incredibly stupid to willfully choose a doctor who rejects medical science. Having the ability to choose an anti-vax doctor is irrelevant to whether or not the vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended by the broad medical community. Fortunately, anti-vax doctors are harder to come by than good doctors who accept science and promote the use of medicine.

You can choose your doctor, but you can't choose what's true and what's not.



tabzer said:


> Bandwagoning and false dilemmas are straight from the propagandist's playbook. "Choose the vaccine or you are killing people" is a false dilemma.


It isn't a false dilemma if it's true. If you choose to not get vaccinated, your risk of getting and spreading the disease is significantly higher than if you had chosen to be vaccinated.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Is it avoidable, and you can take steps to prevent a lot of disasters, but you can never completely stop them or predict the unpredictable. You can control events up to a point, but don't get hung up on trying to control every little thing.


So you say this, but then say shit like this


BitMasterPlus said:


> All I said was you can't make people take vaccines or do stuff they don't want to do because we all have basic human rights. I don't think I said why, I just said people don't have to because it's their choice and even if you wanna judge that, that still doesn't mean your position is automatically right because you disagree with one's actions. I wasn't looking for a debate (for now), just pointing out basic human rights is all.
> 
> 
> Oh boo hoo hoo. People die everyday from plenty of other things, to car accidents to other diseases, so the goddamn king flu isn't a unique case where very few people die from it anyway. "B-b-b-b-but it's preventable with the vaccine." So is falling down the stairs and breaking your neck but that also happens to people anyway. You can't control every little thing and belittle people for not following your rhetoric.


You are legitimately the worst kind of people. Stupid and arrogant in their stupidity, even when it’s doesn’t add up to any of your other values and can even be dangerous to other.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 14, 2021)

How many pages has tabzer been going at it?


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2021)

SG854 said:


> How many pages has tabzer been going at it?


More than 1


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 14, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> So you say this, but then say shit like this
> 
> You are legitimately the worst kind of people. Stupid and arrogant in their stupidity, even when it’s doesn’t add up to any of your other values and can even be dangerous to other.


Projection at it's finest~.


----------



## _47iscool (Jul 14, 2021)

MMX said:


> this'll lead you eventually to the one truth.



As the other guy said, this is getting off-topic. Also, I am finished with this thread and won't be making further replies.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Projection at it's finest~.


I like how I gave you a chance to redeem yourself and yet you still choose to be stupid. I don’t think there’s such a thing as evidence to validate an anti-vaccination stance. It’s just conspiracy bullshit that is followed by gullible pseudo-intellectuals with about as much evidence as the flat earth.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 14, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Considering the world wide 7 billion population, even if you add world wide deaths, which is 4 million I think (and god knows how much that is a lie, if you die from a car crash but have covid they still say it's covid), 4 million vs. 7 billion, um yes, that's still very few people.


uh, if your comparing a us death total... TO WORLD WIDE
of course it is going to look small you moron.
A proper statistic/comparison would be the population of the US.
which is  328.2 million people.Again, covid is the second leading cause of death. ABOVE CANCER here in the states.
Saying it's tiny is fucking ludicrous.
"if you die from a car crash but have covid they still say it's covid."
Source? Because I'm going to be honest. If your fucking skull is cracked or your spine is bent so far backwards it might be a new chair, I don't think they are going to call it covid. There's a thing called finding the cause of death.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lilith Valentine said:


> I like how I gave you a chance to redeem yourself and yet you still choose to be stupid. I don’t think there’s such a thing as evidence to validate an anti-vaccination stance. It’s just conspiracy bullshit that is followed by gullible pseudo-intellectuals with about as much evidence as the flat earth.


Oh no there isn't.

this video goes extremely indepth, well researched (about 143 sources in a google doc)
tl;dr
You know that thing called _capitalism_
Yeah... it was a capitalism moment. Basically doctor wanted to make money, so he created a conspiracy that the MMR vaccine in Europe caused autism, and some sort of irritable bowl syndrome which creates said autism. Same doctor then stated that just getting one vaccine for meseals would be safe. Despite the fact his supposed vaccine is targeting the same-thing that supposedly (by his statements) caused the irritable bowls and creating autism. Oh and then he also changed the work of his workers work multiple times, which resulted in those doctors asking for their names to be removed. And then also did unethical tests on kids, gave improper permission slip forms that did not include any of the possible long term complications.

Oh yeah and he also partners up with a revoked doctor, who believes his bone marrow can cure fucking autism. Oh and that revoked doctor got his license  removed because abusing substances.
As a sidenote if someone is going to refute me about the capitalism part. Just copy your quote and move it to the capitalism v communism thread.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Oh did we reach godwin point again? Man that was fast... Guess I shouldn't be surprised coming from someone who spreads misinformation about medical science and vaccines, and speaks the most stupid things about how you can "choose" to believe differently when things are scientifically proven, should I?



1st.  I didn't compare medical science of the US to medical science of Nazis.  I made the point that America took and use Nazi medical science.

2nd.  If you want a comparison, check the US government going door to door looking for unvaccinated people.

3rd.  I haven't spread misinformation.  Being fearful and or unconvinced of the vaccine is a rational response.

4th: 



@Lacius


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 14, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I like how I gave you a chance to redeem yourself and yet you still choose to be stupid. I don’t think there’s such a thing as evidence to validate an anti-vaccination stance. It’s just conspiracy bullshit that is followed by gullible pseudo-intellectuals with about as much evidence as the flat earth.


I don't have to prove anything to you since you're not my fucking mother. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because _you _think it's right. I got a better idea, why not take to two shots and shove them up your ass instead?


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> that people who choose not to get vaccinated are willfully increasing the odds of getting sick and spreading sickness to others, potentially (and actually) killing people.



Ah...I see....

And also People who are not vaccinated against

- Flue
- Swine Flue
- Avian Avienze Flue

......

Ok,I understand now the Term "Every Human Being has a Opinion".

So WE People,we decide to NOT get vaccinated are selfish,egoistic,ruthless "Deathbringers",....

Wow,really great..


P.S. It is nothing personal against you and your Post,my Friend @Lacius

But this represents the Opinion of many,many,many,many People and what have we learned from the Past.

*The majority is ALWAYS right...*
(For Example 1933 - 1945)


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I don't have to prove anything to you since you're not my fucking mother. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because _you _think it's right. I got a better idea, why not take to two shots and shove them up your ass instead?


Like I said before, no one is forcing you to stop being stupid


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 14, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I don't have to prove anything to you since you're not my fucking mother. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because _you _think it's right. I got a better idea, why not take to two shots and shove them up your ass instead?


As Lilith said, no one's stopping you from being stupid. But as I want to add on
Nothing is stopping us from criticizing your rhetoric and or poor decisions


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you don't like wearing masks, get vaccinated. It's as simple as that. The vaccines are 80-95% effective against COVID-19, which is better than the protection you get with a mask, and the CDC guidance is that you don't have to wear a mask in most situations if you are fully vaccinated. It's a win-win.


Slight interjection, in other countries, and with the propagation of delta it isnt.  Depending on the uptick in infection curves, masks may become, or stay mandatory in certain aspects of life (public transport), more likely when we are reaching the winter months again.

Masks and other mitigation measures are actually employed based on national infection progression curves and with delta active, we likely wont reach herd immunity numbers of vaccinations by the end of this year, so it is somewhat likely that we are repeating the entire mask wearing protocols in the winter months. At least in europe. But as the US runs into the same dangers of public health system overload, probably also in the US.

Part of reemploying mask wearing also will come down to citizen compliance, so the calculation probably will be made differently in the US. But as soon as you are seeing the curves rising into exponential territory again, mandates usually will be back. That said, US never had mask wearing mandates, right? It was just handled as a 'suggestion'? That was politicized for whatever reason?

Also - so far in our parts of europe we are not making a distinction in mask wearing based on wether you were fully vaccinated or not, as this prevents spread from people with asymptomatic infections, and probably increases overall compliance, because people would start pointing fingers at others not wearing them.. That said, we have other 'perks' for vaccinated people (or people who already had it once, or people who were tested (antigen tests) within three days), f.e. being able to go to restaurants, or into theatres and so on...


You are likely correct on the characterization of what drove Fauccis comments though. Masks were produced overseas, medical grade masks (above chirurgical mask quality) need to be produced using specialized equipment, meaning you couldnt ramp up production in the US, so the scramble for allocation of masks began. Gemany alone overpayed billions trying to allocate stock sooner ( https://www.thelocal.de/20210318/ge...-for-face-masks-costing-taxpayers-e2-billion/ ), US started to annex shipments from China intended for different countries, and fun stuff like that.

In the beginning. Then production ramped up.


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> 1st.  I didn't compare medical science of the US to medical science of Nazis.  I made the point that America took and use Nazi medical science.
> 
> 2nd.  If you want a comparison, check the US government going door to door looking for unvaccinated people.
> 
> ...


Practice cardiology. Have learned about virology the last tims in the 30s when you studied. Never came in contact with other people actively in the forefront of vaccination development, despite "your best efforts" which arent characterized.

Make bold claims that get picked up by image forums with right wing connections, but stay absolutely sure, that no one posts your rational on WHY you made those claims, because that could be refuted. Just post credentials.

Also post that they have found 'wondercure' with great properties, that they arent at all likely to profit from, and thats not at all more costly than vaccines, and that its a conspiracy - because vaccine is injected with needles, and their 'solution' isnt picked up by the medical community after double blind studies. Essentially do the same thing you did, when you believed Trump in telling you which miracle cure to get (which then wasnt available to the general public and vastly overpriced) - just so you can stay away of vaccines.

Idiots exist in every field. Some of them even make it very far in their respective professions. Some of them produce great accomplishments in their respective fields, then go over the cliff getting a god complex, thinking that their contributions will save the world - as a cardiologist, then fizzle out into nowhere.

And if the Dr. declared vaccines to be bioterrorism he has other problems.

But we can do nothing about this post on a detailed level, because it left out everything. The papers he published. His actual claims. His reasoning. Which 'alternative medicine' he flogged. We get nothing. We get 'believe'. From a freaking image board.

You can stop that, none of that is needed anymore - you are not protecting people with that, you are not protecting an administration, that is bound to inaction (because it gutted the public health system), and therefore has to keep people calm with BS - none of it is needed anymore.. So why are you still posting FUD?

edit: Oh and here is the factcheck on it: Inaccurate and missleading:

https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...nated-contrary-to-claims-by-peter-mccullough/



> McCullough didn’t cite his sources when stating these figures, but the ballpark figure of 4,000 has been cited before in another claim about COVID-19 vaccines. It may correspond to the number of reports of death occurring after a COVID-19 vaccination in the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database.
> 
> VAERS collects reports of adverse events that occur after vaccination. Its purpose is to serve as a surveillance system that allows public health authorities to detect signals that may indicate potential safety problems.
> 
> ...


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

notimp said:


> But we can do nothing about this post on a detailed level, because it left out everything. The papers he published. His actual claims. His reasoning. Which 'alternative medicine' he flogged. We get nothing. We get 'believe'. From a freaking image board.



Here is an interview I posted with him.  He says he doesn't reccomend the vaccine to pregnant people and people who already have had covid--not that people should go out and catch and spread covid, as suggested by your "fact check" and what @Lacius' implied as the only alternative to getting the vaccine. 



tabzer said:


> I'm not anti-vax btw.  I'm pro-choice.
> 
> Anyone interested in listening to Lacius or anyone else regarding the vaccine should also be interested in listening to a doctor.
> 
> @Lacius, you should watch 15 minutes of it before responding with your typical ad hominem.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 14, 2021)

Dr.tabzer knows best, despite not giving any credible evidence.


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Here is an interview I posted with him.  He says he doesn't reccomend the vaccine to pregnant people and people who already have had covid--not that people should go out and catch covid, as suggested by your "fact check".


And this is a another direct quote from him:
“We know that the vaccine technology produces the dangerous spike protein […] which damages blood vessels and causes blood clotting”



> “[The results suggest] that vaccination-generated antibody […] against [spike] protein not only protects the host from SARS-CoV-2 infectivity but also inhibits [spike] protein imposed endothelial injury.”
> 
> Endothelial cells are cells that line the inner walls of blood vessels. This contradicts McCullough’s claim that the spike protein from the vaccines would damage blood vessels.
> 
> ...


(Probably) Overlooks a factor of one million, misrepresents the cause of blood clotting (thats the 1:700.000 chance of occurring side effect with mRNA vaccines), misrepreents the cause for that occuring ( https://www.ft.com/content/f76eb802-ec05-4461-9956-b250115d0577 caused by the adenovirus vector (the thing the spike protein was designed onto - in vector based vaccines (not in mRNA vaccines)), then tells women with children to worry most - based on nothing.

Here, from the ft article:


> https://www.ft.com/content/f76eb802-ec05-4461-9956-b250115d0577
> 
> Rolf Marschalek, a professor at Goethe university in Frankfurt who has been leading studies into the rare condition since March, said his research showed the problem sat with the adenovirus vectors that both vaccines [AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson] use to deliver the genetic instructions for the spike protein of the Sars-Cov-2 virus into the body.  The delivery mechanism means the vaccines send the DNA gene sequences of the spike protein into the cell nucleus rather than the cytosol fluid found inside the cell where the virus normally produces proteins, Marschalek and other scientists said in a preprint paper released on Wednesday. Once inside the cell nucleus, certain parts of the spike protein DNA are spliced, or split apart, creating mutant versions, which are unable to bind to the cell membrane where important immunisation takes place. The floating mutant proteins are instead secreted by cells into the body, triggering blood clots in roughly one in 100,000 people, according to Marschalek’s theory. In contrast, mRNA-based vaccines, such as the jabs developed by BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna, deliver the spike’s genetic material to the cell fluid and it never enters the nucleus. “When these . . . virus genes are in the nucleus they can create some problems,”





> Marschalek told the Financial Times. The rare blood-clotting reaction that has disrupted the rollout of the AstraZeneca and J&J shots has been recorded in 309 of the 33m people who have received the AstraZeneca vaccine in the UK, causing 56 deaths. In Europe, at least 142 people have experienced the blood clots out of 16m recipients of the vaccine.



Thats an occurance of 1:110.000 in Europe and at the most 20% or them were fatal (percentage taken from here: https://archive.is/C5WEB ), thats with the number of people 'naturally' experiencing blood clots not factored out I believe. Because for germany, i've done the calculation separately a wile ago (when the problem popped up), and it was lower. Also I cant double check the ft number of "out of 16m recipients" - I can just tell you that 1:100.000 seems high. (Edit: But the german scientist did, and he also mentions 1:100.000 with vector vaccines (probably mostly AstraZeneca, as J&J was hardly used in Europe (you guys just didnt deliver it to us..  )).

For the other vaccines (other delivery mechanism and therefore lower occurrence) the numbers look like this.


> Besides the eight cases in Johnson & Johnson recipients, all in the US, the EMA said there had been 287 such incidents in people who had received the AstraZeneca vaccine, including 142 in Europe. The figures for the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna jabs were 25 and five.


https://www.theguardian.com/society...n-vaccine-and-rare-blood-clots-says-regulator

And here is the percentage of vaccines 'given out' to people in the EU:





src: https://www.dw.com/de/faktencheck-was-bedeutet-ein-totalausfall-von-astrazeneca/a-56902462

Light blue is given to people, dark blue is delivered to countries. Andere is others, and Alle Hersteller is all Manufacturers combined (percentage of the population that at least received one dose in march.).

So in the US, which uses mostly Pfizer and J&J, this 'argument' is simply a joke. And yes in germany - mostly women were affected by blood clots after the shots for some reason, maybe a statistical fluke - who knows. Why that brings a cardiologist to suggest, that pregnant women should stay away from the vaccines is still beyond me.

But more importantly - if that is what you 'fear' then take Pfizer or Moderna. I have two shots of Moderna in me btw, if you'd want to know.

edit:

But the argument, that you have to make the decision yourself is still standing. I still dont want to be responsible in the very, very unlikely case something goes wrong. But I can present you with information on how (un)likely it is.

edit2: Replaced the NYT link with an archive.is link, so its not behind a paywall anymore.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Dr.tabzer knows best, despite not giving any credible evidence.



Credible evidence of what, that not taking the vaccine does not increases odds of transmission?  I don't need "credible evidence" to point out the false phrasing and the misrepresentation of the sources others have been citing.  The sources are the same sources that have already been referenced.  Do you want me to get a peer reviewed paper to convince you that +0 is not an increase?



notimp said:


> Why that brings a cardiologist to suggest, that pregnant women should stay away from the vaccines is still beyond me.



He says it is because the trials didn't make a focus group of pregnant women as the reason.  If I have to tell you what he says in the video, then it is only going to be me responding to your confirmation bias that he must be wrong because of *some reason*.


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> He says it is because the trials didn't make a focus group of pregnant women as the reason.


Rrmm.. not good enough imho. Using pregnant women for trials wouldnt be ethical in the first place. (That for sure wouldnt be greenlit in eruope I believe...) But I'm not an expert.

Just edited the posting above to represent what 'both vaccines' the german researcher was talking about, to make it a bit clearer.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

notimp said:


> Using pregnant women for trials wouldnt be ethical in the first place. (That for sure wouldnt be greenlit in eruope I believe...) But I'm not an expert



Okay, and it is probably by that same ethic that he isn't being the one to test pregnant women with it in its current status.

"That for sure...I believe". Lol.



notimp said:


> And this is a another direct quote from him:
> “We know that the vaccine technology produces the dangerous spike protein […] which damages blood vessels and causes blood clotting”



A direct quote shouldn't involve you snipping whatever he is saying.  It removes context, and as you present it--it looks like he says that the spike protein is what is dangerous and that the vaccine produces it.  The refutation-- the "contradiction" isn't a contradiction.  It says that the spike proteins are dangerous, but that the anticipated outcome of the vaccine should fix the danger.  The spike proteins seem to be the cause of the blood clotting side-effects.  Is that wrong?


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Credible evidence of what, that not taking the vaccine does not increases odds of transmission?  I don't need "credible evidence" to point out the false phrasing and the misrepresentation of the sources others have been citing.  The sources are the same sources that have already been referenced.  Do you want me to get a peer reviewed paper to convince you that +0 is not an increase?


So, cases and deaths going down as more people get vaccinated is just a coincidence?

I meant generally trying to convince people not to take the vaccine, despite being medically capable of doing so.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> So, cases and deaths going down as more people get vaccinated is just a coincidence?



It's correlation and the vaccine does have an affect.



KingVamp said:


> I meant generally trying to convince people not to take the vaccine, despite being medically capable of doing so.



I don't reccomend that people do or do not take the vaccine.  I reccomend people do whatever they think is best for themselves.


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Okay, and it is probably by that same ethic that he isn't being the one to test pregnant women with it in its current status.
> 
> "That for sure...I believe". Lol.
> 
> ...


Doesnt matter in this case. What he said was utterly wrong and stupid. I reitterate.

He proposed the wrong cause.
The wrong working mechanism.
The wrong urgency, probably by a factor of one million. (In terms of spike proteins damaging blood vessles.)
The wrong advice (in as far as becoming infected will prevent you from getting a mutated version of it).
And the wrong conclusion (people stay away from vaccination) - probability wise.

There is nothing he could have 'known more' or said in a different context here that would make all of that ok. Its just one person not getting the feedback they needed, making a generalized assumption based on faulty conclusions made, with no feedback loops in place.

Happens.

Regardless that 'you need context' is a good rebuttle, but here we are on the rhetorical playground again, where that is all neat and good to convince people based on bravado and believes. But in the scientific world, this is game over. Not because he made the assumptions, but he made pretty bold claims derived from seemingly nothing - knowing that they might influence peoples actions, and he did so without being thorough seemingly at all.

And thats not all of it. The posting you provided makes way more effort to not direct you towards what he actually said, but what he actually did for the community, as a physician and human being. Different community granted but that seemingly isnt important, whats important is to characterize him as a good man. And at that point you have a warning flag as high as a ten story building, because thats how you convince masses, and not how you make a proper fact based argument. You are playing with peoples emotions, based on their fears and archetype based unterstandings of how societies work. Basically "the good doctor is always right" - is the context you are bringing forward with your snippet. Thats much more selling believes than anything else.

You are hunting for stupid people, that cant do research based on what is happening in the field, and have to rely on trust. And you are abusing them. There is only so much understanding one can muster for this - because this really, really is an issue. If people are selling emotional truths, that dont depend on actual arguments on the 'functional' level of the thing, but rather how much you have to like a person who has been mistreated - promise! We have a problem.

And the easiest way to step out of it is to actually look at the probabilities of grave sideeffects, and then decide, if the proposed measure is rectified by them. Because those numbers he is in no position to dispute. He didnt make additional studies with worse out comes, and... He was a cardiologist. He doesnt have any additional numbers - he has the same numbers we have. And in the case of blood clotting its even more obvious because there was just one set of numbers pubished in Europe on that thing. And we all saw our governments act based on that. (In my country - f.e. people above 65 were bared from getting AstraZeneca shots, and then the EU shifted mainly towards mRNA vaccine procurement. As indicated in the vaccination percentages.)

But the meme you post doesnt reflect anything like that - heck it doesnt even differenciate between different vaccines.

Also we still dont have the "miracle cure" he is supposed to have 'found' based on the 4Chan image board post (because not only is he a doctor, and very important, and very wonderful to his community, no hes also the savior, and died on the cross, because people didnt believe him and treated him badly.... So much for story telling.), if you identify that one - post its name here, I'll then do research again based on whats out there on that.


----------



## TR_mahmutpek (Jul 14, 2021)

This pandemic will end IF EVERYONE GET VACCINED! So please dont be an anti-vaxxer.


----------



## Glyptofane (Jul 14, 2021)

_47iscool said:


> As the other guy said, this is getting off-topic. Also, I am finished with this thread and won't be making further replies.


Lol, I started to feel disgusted and dismayed with the abject lunacy of the pro-vaxx shills as well. No need to waste your time with an exercise in futility. Stand strong, my brother.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

notimp said:


> He proposed the wrong cause.
> The wrong working mechanism.
> The wrong urgency, probably by a factor of one million. (In terms of spike proteins damaging blood vessles.)
> The wrong advice (in as far as becoming infected will prevent you from getting a mutated version of it).
> And the wrong conclusion (people stay away from vaccination) - probability wise.



Spike proteins are the cause of blood clotting as well as the mechanism, afaik.  Please clarify if not to be redundant.  There is no urgency implied by the "direct quote". The wrong advice and the wrong conclusion?  Afaik he does reccomend the vaccine in the video I linked, just not to children, covid survivors and pregnant women.  He says it in the video.  You are looking for bad news for permission to ignore everything the guy says.  But the "bad news" isn't contradictory.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Ah...I see....
> 
> And also People who are not vaccinated against
> 
> ...


There is a greater moral imperative to get vaccinated against COVID-19 because of how infectious and deadly it is, but you are correct that there is also a moral imperative to get your yearly flu shot. Your odds of contracting and spreading the flu are relatively higher if you don't get the vaccine.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There is a greater moral imperative to get vaccinated against COVID-19 because of how infectious and deadly it is, but you are correct that there is also a moral imperative to get your yearly flu shot. Your odds of contracting and spreading the flu are relatively higher if you don't get the vaccine.



He never said that there is a moral imperative.  You did, lol.

And it's bull hockey.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> He never said that there is a moral imperative.  You did, lol.
> 
> And it's bull hockey.


Tabzer, you sometimes have to go back in the thread to see what posts were being responded to in order to get context. The post to which I was responding was itself in response to what I had to say about the morality of getting vaccinated.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Spike proteins are the cause of blood clotting as well as the mechanism, afaik.  Please clarify if not to be redundant.



There's not yet concluding enough proof to assert that for sure, but it is something that is indeed suspected with reasonable doubt to be held for a potential cause of said protein by a few studies, as far as I'm able to tell. 
In which case, taking the vaccine is even more of a prerogative, as spreading the virus is a far greater risk to cause blood clots in unprotected and vulnerable people than the vaccine itself would (the smaller parts of the protein made by the vaccine stay localised in your arm muscle, while the virus doesn't keep that kind of very localised behaviour as it infects respiratory tracts and spreads to the blood system because respiratory system is highly vascularised.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I don't have to prove anything to you since you're not my fucking mother. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because _you _think it's right.



If you don't want your comments dismissed out of hand, you must provide evidence for your claims. A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. If you don't care about potentially looking foolish, then you're right then you don't owe anybody any evidence.
I don't think I or anyone else has advocated for forcing people to get vaccinated. We've argued that people should get vaccinated by citing the medical evidence that shows the vaccines to be safe, effective, and recommended. We've also presented the moral (and selfish) arguments for getting vaccinated.
The vaccines are not an "experimental liquid" with "God knows what" in them. We know they're safe and effective, and we know what's in them.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Tabzer, you sometimes have to go back in the thread to see what posts were being responded to in order to get context. The post to which I was responding was itself in response to what I had to say about the morality of getting vaccinated.



So you honestly read it to be in agreement that it is a moral imperative? 




RocaBOT said:


> There's not yet concluding enough proof to assert that for sure, but it is something that is indeed suspected with reasonable doubt to be held for a potential cause of said protein by a few studies, as far as I'm able to tell.
> In which case, taking the vaccine is even more of a prerogative, as spreading the virus is a far greater risk to cause blood clots in unprotected and vulnerable people than the vaccine itself would (the smaller parts of the protein made by the vaccine stay localised in your arm muscle, while the virus doesn't keep that kind of very localised behaviour as it infects respiratory tracts and spreads to the blood system because respiratory system is highly vascularised.



The sourced "dispute" concedes that the spike protein is the cause but that the antibodies produced overrides them.


----------



## Halbour (Jul 14, 2021)

Im not getting it. IDK Why. Its just not fo


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> So you honestly read it to be in agreement that it is a moral imperative?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't read it as an argument that flu shots had a moral imperative, but it is what he literally said, whether or not it was sarcastic.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The sourced "dispute" concedes that the spike protein is the cause but that the antibodies produced overrides them.



Not sure what you mean by that tbh, but if you mean the antibodies are "more dangerous" then no, you're completely misinterpreting whatever's been shown in there.


----------



## Halbour (Jul 14, 2021)

Im not getting it. IDK Why. Its just not for me.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I didn't read it as an argument that flu shots had a moral imperative, but it is what he literally said, whether or not it was sarcastic.



You aren't responding to what I actually said.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

SHgamer1221 said:


> Im not getting it. IDK Why. Its just not fo


The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you can get the vaccine, you should do so as soon as possible. Your risks of serious illness are thousands to millions of times worse without the vaccine than with it. There is also a moral imperative to get vaccinated, since your odds of spreading the disease are relatively higher if you don't get it. Consult your doctor if you have concerns.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Not sure what you mean by that tbh, but if you mean the antibodies are "more dangerous" then no, you're completely misinterpreting whatever's been shown in there.



No, the antibodies are relegated to being the actual solution (wherever they came from).  The source says that the spike proteins do cause blood clots, but the antibodies nullify their effect.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines are not an "experimental liquid" with "God knows what" in them. We know they're safe and effective, and we know what's in them.


Adding to that, we've known what's in them for years, be it for more "classical" vaccines or for mRNA vaccines (which have existed for at least 15 years in use for our pets in particular, and contain even less things than classical ones), so there's indeed definitely nothing "unknown" about their contents, nor their "long term" side effects which have been well known for the past few decades, at the very least.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



tabzer said:


> No, the antibodies are relegated to being the actual solution (wherever they came from).  The source says that the spike proteins do cause blood clots, but the antibodies nullify their effect.


Ok so I'm glad I asked. But then, you know which one produces more antibodies, and thus a stronger response and solution?
Spoiler: it's being vaccinated against the damn thing


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You aren't responding to what I actually said.


I have no idea what it is you're arguing right now, so if you have a point, make it.

I was responding to a post that, paraphrased, said, "Oh, so you think there's a moral imperative to get the flu vaccine too? Hm?" And I responded, "Yes."


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Adding to that, we've known what's in them for years, be it for more "classical" vaccines or for mRNA vaccines (which have existed for at least 15 years in use for our pets in particular, and contain even less things than classical ones), so there's indeed definitely nothing "unknown" about their contents, nor their "long term" side effects which have been well known for the past few decades, at the very least.



You cannot know the long term effects (decades) of a solution that is younger than decades.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You cannot know the long term effects (decades) of a solution that is younger than decades.


You can: it's the same solution than the ones that have been used in other mRNA vaccines, used for pets as general vaccination against some illnesses for over 15 years, and a few clinical studies in humans beforehand as well. Only what they make the body produce changes, based on a different organisation of *one* of the components, and what they produce we know very well: they only make the body produce antibodies.
Get your goddamned facts straights, tabzer, please.

At this point it's like saying "I'm not eating this chocolate because the brand I don't know and it has not been on the shelves for 10 years so I don't know the long-term side effects because it's organised and packaged differently than the one I'm used to". It's at best useless, at worst (when making unfounded claims about it) dangerous because people will listen far easier to the fear you instill in them than to actual facts. And people far worse than you know and use that, they have been doing so for years. And thanks to people like that, we're seeing surges of illnesses that had been almost eradicated, because of people not getting their frigging vacccines as *preventative measure*, like it's meant to be.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You cannot know the long term effects (decades) of a solution that is younger than decades.


Provide a source to this very specific claim. Is there any evidence to back up this concern?


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> 15 years,



15 years is not decades unless you are rounding up to the nearest decade.  Your phrasing simply doesn't make sense to me.  If you are saying that we have evidence of their facts for at least 15 years, then I wouldn't have said anything about that.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> 15 years is not decades unless you are rounding up to the nearest decade.  Your phrasing simply doesn't make sense to me.  If you are saying that we have evidence of their facts for at least 15 years, then I wouldn't have said anything about that.


It's strictly more than one decade, hence it *is* decades, don't play dumb.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Provide a source to this very specific claim. Is there any evidence to back up this concern?



Claims that one can know the future requires the burden of proof.  Nice try backwards person.



RocaBOT said:


> It's strictly more than one decade, hence it *is* decades, don't play dumb.



I never heard 15 years being referred to as "decades" before.  Totally serious.  Plurality usually implies 2 or more.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Claims that one can know the future requires the burden of proof.  Nice try backwards person.


You're the one who has been claiming to know that the future is grim as you foretell, yet you've been unable to produce any source on that or on any of your unfounded concerns.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



tabzer said:


> I never heard 15 years being referred to as "decades" before.  Totally serious.



Hence you'd rather battle the form than the actual fact being told. Gotcha, now I know you're just being styupid and unable to challenge your unfounded beliefs, see you never I guess, not worth my time arguing with someone like you.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> You're the one who has been claiming to know that the future is grim as you foretell, yet you've been unable to produce any source on that or on any of your unfounded concerns.



I claim that I don't know the future.  I don't claim it's grim.  I'm generally facetious about it.

My concerns are generally with those who claim to know the future.



RocaBOT said:


> styupid


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

Yeah y and u are touching keys on the keyboard, what about it?
I usually fix those typos, I'm going to leave this one just because seeing you challenge the form and not the facts is way too funny


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Yeah y and u are touching keys on the keyboard, what about it?



It chose the ironic of times to toyuch keyus.  

Fact is people still don't agree with medicine and vaccinations that are 70+ years old.  How is missing herd immunity a betrayed expectation at the current time?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

@tabzer Everything you need to know about the cardiologist (not epidemiologist) who has been spewing anti-vax nonsense can be found here:
https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...nated-contrary-to-claims-by-peter-mccullough/

With regard to the most recent conversation about him taking place, there is no evidence that the mRNA vaccines cause blood clotting issues, and the suggestion that they do comes from a misunderstanding of a study that even the authors say doesn't demonstrate anything this cardiologist is suggesting.

Tabzer, when you metaphorically wade into a pool of doctors and scientists, and you swim past one after another until you find one who is making the same debunked pseudoscientific claims about vaccines that you're making, that's called cherry-picking, which is a logical fallacy. It's also a fallacious argument from authority if your reason for saying a person's debunked claims are correct is because he's a medical authority. The broad medical community, as well as the actual epidemiologists and vaccine experts, have already demonstrated that the vaccines are safe and effective.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Fact is people still don't agree with medicine and vaccinations that are 70+ years old.  How is missing herd immunity a betrayed expectation at the current time?


Herd immunity achieved through vaccination has always been stronger and faster than that achieved through no control at all, it's been so for decades, it's been documented for many illnesses both far more dangerous than COVID and far less so too. Believing otherwise despite the facts is ignorant at best, misleading and stupid and dangerous at worst.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> @tabzer Everything you need to know about the cardiologist (not epidemiologist) who has been spewing anti-vax nonsense can be found here:
> https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...nated-contrary-to-claims-by-peter-mccullough/
> 
> With regard to the most recent conversation about him taking place, there is no evidence that the mRNA vaccines cause blood clotting issues, and the suggestion that they do comes from a misunderstanding of a study that even the others say doesn't demonstrate anything this cardiologist is suggesting.
> ...



Notimp has already sourced that and I have been addressing it.  The "fact check" if you read it, doesn't dispute the actual claim it's in reference to.  People are allowed to cherry pick their medical advocacy.  My original dispute with you was that it isn't up to you to prescribe it for them.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



RocaBOT said:


> Herd immunity achieved through vaccination has always been stronger and faster than that achieved through no control at all, it's been so for decades, it's been documented for many illnesses both far more dangerous than COVID and far less so too. Believing otherwise despite the facts is ignorant at best, misleading and stupid and dangerous at worst.



You are missing my point and assuming that I am saying that the ideal isn't a good one.  The ideal is impossible to expect solely on people's choices to become vaccinated.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

That's why some vaccinations have been made mandatory for periods of time in some countries, and that's why we're trying to get people educated on vaccines and prevention. Everyone who can be safely vaccinated has a moral imperative to do so because it reduces the risks not only for them, but also for people who cannot get vaccinated because of underlying conditions, by shielding the latter from being contaminated. 
In some cases like COVID that mutate enough that the vaccine is only reducing (by a lot mind you, not just a little) the contamination risk and not completely nullifying it, you may want to take other prerogatives on top of it, but that in no way forbids you from seeing vulnerable family members or friends, as long as precautions are reasonably taken if you know having been at risk of being infected (and thus being at risk of transmitting it).

Anyway, not having an ideal conclusion is not an excuse to not take the best ones available. It is a fallacy to say "no I want the perfect solution and nothing else will do". Perfect solutions don't exist, short of killing and burning anyone that is contagious, which is far from ethical, and so I wouldn't recommend it.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Notimp has already sourced that and I have been addressing it.


It is possible I missed something, but I didn't find you actually addressing the facts of the fact check.


tabzer said:


> Here is an interview I posted with him.  He says he doesn't reccomend the vaccine to pregnant people and people who already have had covid--not that people should go out and catch and spread covid, as suggested by your "fact check" and what @Lacius' implied as the only alternative to getting the vaccine.



What the doctor says about vaccinating pregnant women is either wrong or outdated: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/pregnancy.html
Saying people should not get the vaccine because it causes harm, or that natural immunity from getting the disease is better than the immunity from the vaccine, are both suggestions that people would be better off catching and spreading the disease rather than getting vaccinated.
These claims and the others are all dangerous pseudoscientific nonsense.
These claims and the others have all been debunked.
Any credibility this medical professional (a cardiologist, not an epidemiologist) might have once had is gone now. He's peddling anti-vax conspiracies unsupported by evidence.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> That's why some vaccinations have been made mandatory for periods of time in some countries,



If you are going to advocate mandatory vaccination, I am disinterested.

The idea that getting vaccinated is a moral imperative is a false dilemma based on a notion, that by not being vaccinated, that you are somehow assaulting people.

Piss poor analogy: but it's like saying that by running with scissors that you are assaulting people with scissors.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> It is possible I missed something, but I didn't find you actually addressing the facts of the fact check.
> 
> 
> What the doctor says about vaccinating pregnant women is either wrong or outdated: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/pregnancy.html
> ...



Based on how these vaccines work in the body, experts believe they are unlikely to pose a risk for people who are pregnant. However, there are currently limited data on the safety of COVID-19 vaccines in pregnant people.

Clinical trials that study the safety of COVID-19 vaccines and how well they work in pregnant people are underway or planned.

-From your own source.

The doctor who advocates for the patient has to make judgement calls all the time.

You are actually saying that the guy loses credibility by not agreeing with you, without listening to what he has said nor his explanations.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> If you are going to advocate mandatory vaccination, I am disinterested.
> 
> The idea that getting vaccinated is a moral imperative is a false dilemma based on a notion, that by not being vaccinated, that you are somehow assaulting people.
> 
> Piss poor analogy: but it's like saying that by running with scissors that you are assaulting people with scissors.


It isn't a false dilemma if it's true. If you agree that not getting vaccinated causes you to have significantly higher odds of catching and spreading the disease relative to one's vaccinated counterparts, then there's a moral imperative.

A good analogy would be driving a car without preparing for or having a driver's license. You might not hit anybody, particularly if you aren't on a busy road, but privileges like being on the road are contingent upon passing the driver's test and getting your license, and you have a dramatically increased risk of causing harm to others by being on the road without knowing how to drive. There is a moral imperative to knowing how to drive before driving, just as there's a moral imperative to not driving drunk.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you agree that not getting vaccinated causes you to have significantly higher odds of catching and spreading the disease relative to one's vaccinated counterparts, then there's a moral imperative.



I said it several times but not getting the vaccine doesn't add +100 to your odds of catching and spreading covid.  If you want to make the argument that doing everything you can to prevent the spread of covid is a moral imperative, then vaccines will never be enough.



Lacius said:


> A good analogy would be driving a car without preparing for or having a driver's license. You might not hit anybody, particularly if you aren't on a busy road, but privileges like being on the road are contingent upon passing the driver's test and getting your license, and you have a dramatically increased risk of causing harm to others by being on the road without knowing how to drive.



I was making an analogy for the not getting vaccinated = injuring people.  You are making an analogy that living is a privilege contingent of an governing body.  It reads more like an advocacy for mandatory vaccination than it does about what I was talking about.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> If you are going to advocate mandatory vaccination, I am disinterested.
> 
> The idea that getting vaccinated is a moral imperative is a false dilemma based on a notion, that by not being vaccinated, that you are somehow assaulting people.
> 
> ...


The information you cited from the CDC is correct. It also says:

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Federal Drug Administration (FDA) have safety monitoring systems in place to gather information about COVID-19 vaccination during pregnancy and will closely monitor that information. Early data from these systems are preliminary, but reassuring. These data did not identify any safety concerns for pregnant people who were vaccinated or for their babies."

"Studies in animals receiving a Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech, or J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine before or during pregnancy found no safety concerns in pregnant animals or their babies."

Do not get me wrong. Considering the limited data on the vaccine's effects on pregnant women, I don't condemn a pregnant women for not getting vaccinated, assuming she isn't going out in public much, she's mask-wearing, and anyone she lives with and regularly interacts with is vaccinated and otherwise not at high-risk for transmitting the disease to her. There is less of a moral imperative to get vaccinated when the effects on the fetus are less understood. In fact, the existence of pregnant women only makes it even more of a moral imperative for the rest of us to get vaccinated.

However, there is a difference between saying the above and peddling anti-scientific and debunked nonsense like (to paraphrase) "the mRNA vaccines cause blood clots" and "getting infected and having natural immunity is better than getting vaccinated" and "people who have gotten the disease don't need to get vaccinated" and "the vaccine is unsafe and unrecommended."


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> "the mRNA vaccines cause blood clots" and "getting infected and having natural immunity is better than getting vaccinated" and "people who have gotten the disease don't need to get vaccinated" and "the vaccine is unsafe and unrecommended."




You need to start paraphrasing what the Doctor actually said.  I posted a video a while back.  As I said, you should watch a little of it before going in with the ad hominems and now these strawmen.

If I could choose between having natural immunity without having covid or taking the vaccination, I would go the primary.  Obviously you love scientific method so much that you would subject your body for testing, so I don't have to really question what you'd choose.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I said it several times but not getting the vaccine doesn't add +100 to your odds of catching and spreading covid.  If you want to make the argument that doing everything you can to prevent the spread of covid is a moral imperative, then vaccines will never be enough.


Nobody argued that not getting the vaccine "adds +100 to your odds of catching and spreading COVID-19." Read my post next time, and don't be disingenuous.



tabzer said:


> I was making an analogy for the not getting vaccinated = injuring people.  You are making an analogy that living is a privilege contingent of an governing body.  It reads more like an advocacy for mandatory vaccination than it does about what I was talking about.


My analogy had nothing to do with "living being a privilege continent upon a governing body." I'll dumb down my analogy for you:

You = you
Driving a car = interacting with other people
Driving a car on a busy road = interacting with other people in public/crowds
Car crash = COVID-19 infection
Death or serious injury from a car crash = death or serious injury from a COVID-19 infection
Learning how to drive = vaccination
The privilege of getting to drive = the privilege of not having to wear masks


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Spike proteins are the cause of blood clotting as well as the mechanism, afaik.


In a roundabout way yes. In the way the physician apparently quoted, no. To 'damage blood vessels' the concentration would have had to been 1.000.000 times higher. Its a different interaction mechanism in the way vector vaccines (AstraZeneca and J&J) reproduce but mRNA doesnt. (The vector virus had copies of it produced in cells nuclei (intended behavior, btw), while the mRNA had them being reproduced outside cells nuclei which lead to different properties.) Also its an issue so infrequent, that you couldnt reasonably detect in in stage 3 trials. And when it was detected during vaccination runs, steps to reduce the issue were set by governments in the west. Also the statement that its both an issue with AZ and J&J is somewhat problematic if you take into account the very low number of reported cases in the US administration case, with J&J. So low in fact, that its out of 'you'd have to do something about it' range for US populations. If you vaccinate half of the US citizenry, and you have six cases in total... theres not that much you can do about it. But at the same time, its probably not something that should keep you awake at night, because on the statistical reasoning level you prevented much more harm than you dished out.

The interpretation that it was 'spike proteins' that damage blood vessels afaik is not correct. And then the question arises, how did that physician come to that conclusion. And the first thing that comes into mind at that stage is, that he heard spike, and did some free associations with pointy and blood vessels, and thats not good. And at that point, at the latest, you start to wonder, how a cardiologist (not a virologist) can make a mistake like that, then tell people not to get vaccinated, based on 6-100ish reported cases of that occuring in the US, while misrepresenting the mechanism. And ignoring, that a spike protein is something man viruses have - without killing the host altogether, because that would also kill them. And then it being misquoted by a 4chan post suddenly not differenciating between vaccines anymore, which then you are using to construct your story from.

This thing has more holes, than connections you can make.

Ands thats just one example of the stuff he spread, all of which was problematic - and misleading - next thing is the statment, that 'natural immunity' is better than the vaccine. No its not. Especially not after the first booster shot. And especially not concerning mutations.

A human being that goes out there and tells the public, with no expertise in the field, something thats factually wrong, and then follows it up with 'getting it naturally is better than getting vaccinated', without thinking for a moment about the harm he produces, frankly should not be someone who is featured in anything but a meme on a 4chan like image board.

And you are still dancing around the fact, that the entire posting was designed to get an uneducated person to respond emotionally. Promote conspiratorial thinking, has no foundation in actual procedual logic, nor in statistical risk assessment - and only exists to make people afraid. Of something that has no - literally no bearing on reality.

Something something, spike protein, is not enough, I'm sorry. Thats not the cause of the problem. Even if spike sounds spikey.

And creating meaning by association is also something that is used in manipulating masses, not in scientific work.

So we have to come to terms, that the 'good doctor' likely read a paper. Misinterpreted its contents, babbled out a conection as a 'functional mechanism' that they made up in their mind. And then went on to injest the frigging fear of god in people, based on something the statistical risk assessment shows might not be even enough to give out a warning - which could be missunderstood. And then the 4chan post made five times more sure it was misunderstood, by focusing not on what he said, but what a swell guy he was, namingly someone who would save the world with a miracle cure, that was not a vaccination -- something that plays straight into Trump narratives at a time, before he himself got vaccinated.

So stop being the flipping troll pulling out a fake association to a word like spike protein out of your flipping hat, when the good doctor got everything wrong he could have gotten wrong. And the entire post you share was designed to play the emotional strings of people unable to do any research. Unable to look up the statistical risk related. Unable to know that several different vaccines exist, and are not even affected (statistically).


While at the same time having nothing but the utmost benefit of the doubt for the good doctor, that is practically jesus, and was prevented from saving the world with his miracle cure.

Oh and which has factcheck articles online denouncing him as misleading and factually wrong - and who hasnt even cared to respond. I dont know what image you have of the scientific field - but thats not enough. By a flipping longshot. But then your sole source of info are image board spreading dark PR for people that want to life in a world, where it was 'so close' that all of them were saved, but then sadly, the big conspiracy came along and...

You just dont know how madening it is to see you leading yourself around your own nose, making connections up out of thin air, promoting 'I think it has something to do with the spike protein, and thats enough for me', once others (me) have laid out to you that the 'good doctor' got the entire mechanism wrong by which the side effect is triggered. Because he isnt a flipping virologist, and not someone thats an expert in anti immune responses.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> You need to start paraphrasing what the Doctor actually said.  I posted a video a while back.  As I said, you should watch a little of it before going in with the ad hominems and now these strawmen.


I have direct quotes of what the doctor said, and I said I was paraphrasing them. If you have a problem with my representation of what he said, let me know how I got it wrong, be specific, and provide evidence.



tabzer said:


> If I could choose between having natural immunity without having covid or taking the vaccination, I would go the primary.  Obviously you love scientific method so much that you would subject your body for testing, so I don't have to really question what you'd choose.


You incorrectly label things as false dilemmas a lot, but your suggestion that it's either pro-scientific method or not have your body experimented on is itself a false dilemma. In reality, I am a proponent of the scientific method and skepticism, but that does not mean I must allow my body to be experimented on. My vaccination occurred after the scientific experiments were concluded that demonstrated vaccine safety and efficacy.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Claims that one can know the future requires the burden of proof.  Nice try backwards person.
> 
> 
> 
> I never heard 15 years being referred to as "decades" before.  Totally serious.  Plurality usually implies 2 or more.


You are the one who made the claim and as per the normal with you, you attempt to avoid citing your sources. You made the claim, you are the one urging caution, and yet you aren’t willing to provide any sources to back up your caution. This is on you, not on anyone else for needing evidence.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Nobody argued that not getting the vaccine "adds +100 to your odds of catching and spreading COVID-19." Read my post next time, and don't be disingenuous.
> 
> 
> My analogy had nothing to do with "living being a privilege continent upon a governing body." I'll dumb down my analogy for you:
> ...



Saying that not getting the vaccination increases odds is patently false and propagandic.  I cannot overstate this.

Your analogy totally sucks and is not a better analogy for how not getting the vaccination=assault.  By your definition of terms it's an analogy about how interacting with people without a mask is a privilege, and to not wear a mask and not be vaccinated and interact with others is immoral---and for that last point I might agree for different reasons.  This creates a lot more possible scenarios that are besides "get vaccinated or you are a murderer" and validates my claim of such simple stupid statement as being a false dilemma. If I am not wearing a mask and someone approaches me, I am going to assume a consent of the risk.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Your analogy literally creates more confusion and departs from the original claim.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I don't reccomend that people do or do not take the vaccine.  I reccomend people do whatever they think is best for themselves.


Just happens to say nothing, but negative things about the vaccine, including things that "might go wrong" decades from now. 

Which, of course, completely disregards all the people that are getting sick and dying in the present. 



Glyptofane said:


> Lol, I started to feel disgusted and dismayed with the abject lunacy of the pro-vaxx shills as well. No need to waste your time with an exercise in futility. Stand strong, my brother.


Lunatics and shills for wanting to keep everyone safe.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Snip


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You incorrectly label things as false dilemmas a lot, but your suggestion that it's either pro-scientific method or not have your body experimented on is itself a false dilemma.



Throughout the life of this thread I have labelled a single proposition as a false dilemma, consistently.

I'm not suggesting that refusing the vaccine is anti-scientific method, or that a choice has to be made between two.  It's purely hypothetical to shed light on the fact that the doctor didn't say getting covid is better than getting the vaccine as the "fact checker" falsely insinuates--and that I also prefer natural immunity.


----------



## smf (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Blame the un-vaxxed for your "vaccination" not working.



Yes, the vaccine can't work if anti vaxxers refuse to take it.



tabzer said:


> Why don't you demand a better solution (cure)?



We could euthanize those who don't want to take the vaccine, that is the best solution that science can offer right now.



tabzer said:


> Obviously the government has enough power to push it if getting a vaccine that gains pharmaceutical companies trillions in revenue was so easy.



You appear to have a poor understanding of the situation.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 14, 2021)

notimp said:


> The interpretation that it was 'spike proteins' that damage blood vessels afaik is not correct. And then the question arises, how did that physician come to that conclusion. And the first thing that comes into mind at that stage is, that he heard spike, and did some free associations with pointy and blood vessels, and thats not good. And at that point, at the latest, you start to wonder, how a cardiologist (not a virologist) can make a mistake like that, then tell people not to get vaccinated, based on 6-100ish reported cases of that occuring in the US, while misrepresenting the mechanism. And ignoring, that a spike protein is something man viruses have - without killing the host altogether, because that would also kill them. And then it being misquoted by a 4chan post suddenly not differenciating between vaccines anymore, which then you are using to construct your story from.



The doctor said that spike proteins cause blood clots.

A source that the fact checker used to dispute the claim said:

“[The results suggest] that vaccination-generated antibody […] against [spike] protein not only protects the host from SARS-CoV-2 infectivity but also inhibits [spike] protein imposed endothelial injury.”

Which is to say, the spike proteins that cause clots are inhibited by the antibody.  

Both seem to say spike proteins are not good.  (Inhibiting would be).  Both the doctor being "refuted" and the one doing the"refutation" seem to agree about spike proteins being bad.


----------



## notimp (Jul 14, 2021)

@tabzer: Good news, you were correct. Arguably.  In one part. But I was as well.. 

Did some more research. Looked up the original paper of the german scientist who first came to a (preliminary) conclusion on the blood clot phenomenon.



> Here, we present data that may explain these severe side effects which have been attributed to adenoviral vaccines. According to our results, transcription of wildtype and codon-optimized Spike open reading frames enables alternative splice events that lead to C-terminal truncated, soluble Spike protein variants. These soluble Spike variants may initiate severe side effects (in 1:100.000 people) when binding to ACE2-expressing endothelial cells in blood vessels.


src: https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-558954/v1

So blood vessels arent damaged because of the spike protein, but because of an interaction with one form of the delivery mechanism (vector vaccine, so AZ and J&J), truncated proteines are produced in cells nuclei, which are then let go into the body (instead of binding to the cells membrane) which then may inititate the severe side effects, when binding with endothelial cells in blood vessels. Binding is not necessarily damaging them (its more clogging them up.).

But lets give this point to you, because in the original paper the word "blood vessels" is mentioned, which very likely means, we have found what the 'good doctor' based his assessment on.

So they didnt do any studies themselves (as a cardiologist he cant), he just read that one paper, and decided, that it was time to tell people not to get vaccinated.

Issue - the same paper (see source) is limiting the effect to only AZ and J&J and limiting it to a 1:100.000 occurence at the most.

That doesnt take into account that far fewer cases are reported with J&J (see postings on the last page --) and, now the kicker ... Bloomberg reports that other molecular virologists have reported, that they see that effect, but they see the proteins stoping in a stage before they would cause blood clotting:

https://archive.is/feK8O

Ending with - further research is recommended.
-

So at this point, we very arguably have the entire picture. US cardiologist reads this paper, interprets it maybe slightly wrong (damaging blood vessles), then takes the reported case number of 1:100.000 and warns people to get the vaccine. Thats just random guy, with a voice - as far as the molecular virology world is concerned, he knows jack.

At the same time other studies are started, that seem to indicate, that this might be part of the cause, but dont explain it entirely.

And for some reason J&J also produces significantly less cases of that sideeffect occuring in reported data (see last page)


> Besides the eight cases in Johnson & Johnson recipients, all in the US, the EMA said there had been 287 such incidents in people who had received the AstraZeneca vaccine, including 142 in Europe. The figures for the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna jabs were 25 and five.


https://www.theguardian.com/society...n-vaccine-and-rare-blood-clots-says-regulator

So your source is basically misrepresenting everything. Your 'source for the warning' did no research, they read a paper. Based on a 1:100.000 occurance stated in that paper he decided "to warn people not to get vaccinated", at the same time real world occurance of the complication in J&J recipients turned out to be 8 at a point where half of the US population was vaccinated. US didnt use AstraZeneca(AZ) broadly - afair.

So all of that - and "they took the jesus doctor from us and didnt let them give us the good medizine, that would have made vaccinations useless, for

a 1:3.000.000 change of a side effect occuring as far as we can tell. There was another 1:130.000 chance side effect reported with J&J yesterday - btw ( https://www.healthline.com/health-news/fda-adds-warning-to-jj-vaccine-over-very-rare-side-effect ) but that didnt get the 'the good doctor wanted to save us" threatment from 4chan yet, so you werent woried. 

On Pfizer and Moderna, nothing along those lines yet (harmfull sideeffects with a risk probability even close to that of the two instances named here).

Also, that the 'good doctor' just read the paper linked in this thread, and then made his comments, is a guess on my part. But its the only thing that fits. Its the main study on those blood cluts, and it mentions bloodvessels which propbably got the interest of our 'good doctor cardeologist'.

Btw, it also got the interest of countries around the world, some of which (germany) halted vaccinating people with AZ at that point (for a while), and then switched to mainly mRNA based vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) in procurement shortly afterwards. Also all around the world people in governments, and virologists read the same paper, without giving out a warning, that people shouldnt get the AZ shot.

Arguably (as in maybe), in Euope they 'phased out' AZ anyhow. And J&J (as well as (Moderna and) Pfizer, which is the most used vaccine in the US) never produced those kind of numbers of severe side effects. (You need the central agency overlooking the vaccination drive pulling together that data to report it, so its not that there could be multiple source, which people could miss, or anything like that).


----------



## smf (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's purely hypothetical to shed light on the fact that the doctor didn't say getting covid is better than getting the vaccine as the "fact checker" falsely insinuates--and that I also prefer natural immunity.



Relying on natural immunity is a terrible strategy as millions of people will end up with long covid.

It seems there is a problem with your ability to assess risk.



tabzer said:


> If you are going to advocate mandatory vaccination, I am disinterested.



Disinterested means it doesn't affect you either way, so you wouldn't refuse a mandatory vaccination. Is this what you meant?



tabzer said:


> You cannot know the long term effects (decades) of a solution that is younger than decades.



Not consuming anything that hasn't been available for decades would seem to be quite limiting.

How are you connecting to the internet? How do you know what the health effects of using the internet are?


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2021)

If there’s anything to take out of this thread, it’s that the anti-vaccine/“cautious” crowd has based their entire perspective on fear, ignorance, and arrogance with no sources.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The idea that getting vaccinated is a moral imperative is a false dilemma based on a notion, that by not being vaccinated, that you are somehow assaulting people.


It is not. It is based on the fact that, by not getting vaccinated *if you can be vaccinated*, you participate to allowing the illness in question (be it COVID or anything else really) to spread and potentially hit vulnerable people that *cannot* be vaccinated and *are at more risk of getting severe forms of those illnesses*.
Question yourself why in France for example, it is mandatory to have your children vaccinated against measles (if they can be, obviously children that suffer conditions making them unable to be vaccinated are exempt) if you want to send them to public schools. It's merely because the benefit of vaccinating against that (and many other illnesses) far outweighs the risk that we take by allowing a potential cluster of this illness to form in schools if even one of the children were to bring it there.

Pure logic based on *facts* about vaccines and afferent illnesses that have been known for decades (for almost as ling as vaccination has been a thing, in fact).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also it's not saying you are assaulting people. It's saying that you are taking a higher risk towards them, when you could go the other way around and take less risks towards them. That makes you morally responsible towards them if you take risks with their health for your own comfort.

Also also, for the love of god: you *cannot* get "natural immunity" (labelling immunity as natural or unnatural is a complete nonsense btw) without being exposed to the thing. You can be exposed to the actual illness and *take risks for your life and the lives of others* or be exposed to *a reduced form of it or a recognisable part of it* using vaccines and get *a far greater immunity response* that takes *way less risks for both your life and the lives of others around you* (because you won't be spreading the illness so much if you get it, in the cases it's contagious like COVID, and you reduce the risk that you yourself make a grave form of it).

That is *actual, documented science*. It has been documented dozens, if not hundreds, of times for decades, on several illnesses.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 14, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> If there’s anything to take out of this thread, it’s that the anti-vaccine/“cautious” crowd has based their entire perspective on fear, ignorance, and arrogance with no sources.


Also, that the poll seems promising.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 14, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Saying that not getting the vaccination increases odds is patently false and propagandic.  I cannot overstate this.


It's dishonest and absurd of you to repeatedly take the fact that the vaccines significantly reduce the odds of contracting and spreading COVID-19 and rephrase it this way. Nobody is talking about anything else. You're arguing against a strawman. I cannot overstate this. I expect it to stop now.



tabzer said:


> By your definition of terms it's an analogy about how interacting with people without a mask is a privilege


When you're interacting with people in, for example, a store that you do not own, not having to wear a mask during a pandemic is a privilege, yes.



tabzer said:


> and to not wear a mask and not be vaccinated and interact with others is immoral


It is immoral. If you don't get vaccinated, your odds of contracting and spreading the disease to other people are significant higher than if you were vaccinated. If you are unvaccinated and you don't wear a mask, the odds are even higher than that. There is a moral imperative to get vaccinated, and there is a moral imperative (and in a lot of cases, an actual requirement) to wear a mask if you are unvaccinated.



tabzer said:


> This creates a lot more possible scenarios that are besides "get vaccinated or you are a murderer" and validates my claim of such simple stupid statement as being a false dilemma.


Regarding the topic of conversation, there are only two choices: get vaccinated or don't. The latter comes with significantly higher chances of spreading disease to other people, so there is a moral imperative to do the former.



tabzer said:


> Throughout the life of this thread I have labelled a single proposition as a false dilemma, consistently.


Consistently = a lot

Also, what you keep saying is a false dilemma isn't actually a false dilemma if it's true.



tabzer said:


> I'm not suggesting that refusing the vaccine is anti-scientific method


Refusing the vaccine is anti-science and immoral.



tabzer said:


> Tor that a choice has to be made between two.


A choice does have to be made between getting the vaccine and not getting the vaccine.



tabzer said:


> It's purely hypothetical to shed light on the fact that the doctor didn't say getting covid is better than getting the vaccine as the "fact checker" falsely insinuates



Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated that the vaccines have caused thousands of deaths and hospitalizations.
Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly, and hyperbolically, stated that the vaccines are "the most lethal toxic biologic agent ever injected into a human body in American history."
Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated that natural immunity from COVID-19 is "way better" than getting the COVID-19 vaccine.
Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated COVID-19 survivors "can’t get the virus," so they don’t need to be vaccinated.
Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated the vaccines' spike proteins "damage blood vessels and causes blood clotting."
Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated that the vaccines haven't been tested for safety and efficacy.
Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated that these vaccines might cause one to be "marked in a database and this can be used for trade, for commerce, for behavior modification, all different purposes."
In summary, this cardiologist is peddling anti-vax bullshit about the vaccines being unsafe when they're not, and he's suggesting people should not get vaccinated. He's clearly supporting risking COVID-19 contraction over vaccination, and the advice is as dangerous as it is stupid. He is also clearly peddling the debunked nonsense, as the political right has done over the last year and a half, that young people would be better off contracting the virus and developing natural immunity.



tabzer said:


> I also prefer natural immunity.



Natural immunity to COVID-19 comes with all of the serious risks associated with contracting COVID-19, including but not limited to mild symptoms, moderate symptoms, long-term effects, severe symptoms, hospitalization, and death.
Even if you are young and healthy, the risk of serious effects from COVID-19 are far more likely and far more dangerous than anything from the COVID-19 vaccines.
Natural immunity from having COVID-19 also means you are spreading the disease to other people while you have it. There is no risk of spreading COVID-19 as a direct result of being vaccinated.
30% of children who are contracting COVID-19 are developing "long-haul COVID-19," and they're contracting COVID-19 overwhelmingly from people who willfully choose not to get vaccinated.
We have data regarding how long immunity lasts as a result of getting vaccinated. The data regarding how long natural immunity lasts is less clear.
At the very least, immunity for vaccination has a lot less variability than natural immunity.
We know that, regardless of whether or not a person develops natural immunity from COVID-19, a person is likely to develop better and longer-lasting immunity after a COVID-19 vaccine than anything else if that person has already had COVID-19.



tabzer said:


> The doctor said that spike proteins cause blood clots.
> 
> A source that the fact checker used to dispute the claim said:
> 
> ...


The amount of spike protein is incredibly relevant, Dr. Tabzer.

Who got tabzer one of these?


Spoiler


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's dishonest and absurd of you to repeatedly take the fact that the vaccines significantly reduce the odds of contracting and spreading COVID-19 and rephrase it this way. Nobody is talking about anything else. You're arguing against a strawman. I cannot overstate this. I expect it to stop now.
> 
> 
> When you're interacting with people in, for example, a store that you do not own, not having to wear a mask during a pandemic is a privilege, yes.
> ...


Also to add on to what your saying. It's a cardiologist. A heart doctor. A cardiologist is not a epidemiologist. A cardiologist has relatively no expertise on studying and understanding viruses. Or prevention
edit: I originally said virologist. However epidemiologist is probably the more accurate field for this specific scenario


----------



## SG854 (Jul 15, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I don't have to prove anything to you *since you're not my fucking mother*. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I'm not gonna force someone to take anything if they don't want to, so why don't you not be stupid in disregarding basic human rights just because somebody doesn't wanna take an experimental fucking liquid god knows what's in it? But fuck me and everyone else who chooses not to take it, right? Force people to take it because _you _think it's right. I got a better idea, why not take to two shots and shove them up your ass instead?


You not my fucking mother? What lol. What kind of response was that lol


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you don't take the shot, you are dramatically increasing the odds of contracting the virus and spreading it to others.





Lacius said:


> not getting vaccinated causes you to have significantly higher odds of catching and spreading the disease





Lacius said:


> It's dishonest and absurd of you to repeatedly take the fact that the vaccines significantly reduce the odds of contracting and spreading COVID-19 and rephrase it this way.





Lacius said:


> Also, what you keep saying is a false dilemma isn't actually a false dilemma if it's true.



"Get vaccinated or you are hurting people" is a false dilemma.  You can "not get the vaccine" and "not hurt people".  You can get the vaccine and still hurt people.  You can get the virus and not hurt people.  

"The most lethal toxic biologic agent ever injected into a human body in American history." If he said this, I would like to know when, where, and the context.  

As far as arguing natural immunity vs vaccine immunity-your argument largely focuses on people never having had Covid... accusing the doctor saying that it is better to get Covid than to get the vaccine, which, again, which he didn't.  

You also said that you can't get covid if you got the vaccination.

Spike proteins, which are dangerous, are a part of the ingredients of the vaccine, and would likely be a contributing factor in the "rare chance" of blood clotting--if the antibodies failed in producing.  That is my understanding.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> "Get vaccinated or you are hurting people" is a false dilemma.  You can "not get the vaccine" and "not hurt people".  You can get the vaccine and still hurt people.  You can get the virus and not hurt people.
> 
> "The most lethal toxic biologic agent ever injected into a human body in American history." If he said this, I would like to know when, where, and the context.
> 
> ...


If you are so confident in your beliefs go speak with a doctor and tell them everything you are telling lacius.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> "Get vaccinated or you are hurting people" is a false dilemma.  You can "not get the vaccine" and "not hurt people".  You can get the vaccine and still hurt people.  You can get the virus and not hurt people.
> 
> "The most lethal toxic biologic agent ever injected into a human body in American history." If he said this, I would like to know when, where, and the context.
> 
> ...


So you gonna provide any sources? I still haven’t seen any sources to a single post that I’ve asked for a source on.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> "Get vaccinated or you are hurting people" is a false dilemma.  You can "not get the vaccine" and "not hurt people".  You can get the vaccine and still hurt people.  You can get the virus and not hurt people.


When you choose to not be vaccinated, you are willfully increasing the odds of spreading the disease to other people, significantly. It isn't a false dilemma.



tabzer said:


> As far as arguing natural immunity vs vaccine immunity-your argument largely focuses on people never having had Covid... accusing the doctor saying that it is better to get Covid than to get the vaccine, which, again, which he didn't.


If he's going to advocate for not getting the vaccine, then he's advocating for a significantly increased chance that the person will get COVID-19. He also said that if a person gets COVID-19, that immunity is better than getting vaccinated.



tabzer said:


> You also said that you can't get covid if you got the vaccination.


I never said this. Breakthrough infections of vaccinated people occur, but they're rare.



tabzer said:


> Spike proteins, which are dangerous, are a part of the ingredients of the vaccine, and would likely be a contributing factor in the "rare chance" of blood clotting--if the antibodies failed in producing.  That is my understanding.


No evidence of clotting has been seen with the mRNA vaccines, which means it's unlikely just the spike proteins. The fact that only the viral vector vaccines have the very rare risk of clotting, and the fact that it's mostly only affecting women or certain ages, means it is at least an oversimplification of the issue to call out spike proteins as "bad." Remember too that the risk of clotting with the viral vector vaccines ranges from approximately 1 in a million to 1 in 143,000, and there are mitigations in place now to treat these conditions so they aren't severe or lethal.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 15, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> So you gonna provide any sources? I still haven’t seen any sources to a single post that I’ve asked for a source on.


That's tabzer's problem they speak from the ass. Thing's that sound plausible doesn't mean they are without any backing or sources. 

I can make a claim that women get paid less because they pick jobs that pay less. Which sounds like a good plausible explanation, but unless I have sources to prove it, it means nothing. Just because it sounds like a good reason doesn't mean it's correct. You need sources.

Tabzer has been going for pages and pages, and I'm already getting tired of them being a stubborn ass for no good reason.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

SG854 said:


> That's tabzer's problem they speak from the ass. Thing's that sound plausible doesn't mean they are without any backing or sources.
> 
> I can make a claim that women get paid less because they pick jobs that pay less. Which sounds like a good plausible explanation, but unless I have sources to prove it, it means nothing. Just because it sounds like a good reason doesn't mean it's correct. You need sources.
> 
> Tabzer has been going for pages and pages, and I'm already getting tired of them being a stubborn ass for no good reason.


I know, I’ve literally spent like several pages on this thread and previous threads requesting sources to their claims. It’s not about expecting a source from them, because I know won’t get it, it’s about revealing just how garage their claims are and how they aren’t backed by any actual evidence. I hoping people following along can see that despite claiming they have sources and evidence, they never provide any of them. I am hoping people following along realize that they should be suspicious of people like them and start considering that maybe their fears and concerns are unfounded. I am also doing this to keep making them need to defend their trash ideas, which means others can come in and take those ideas apart. The more I keep demanding sources, the more they keep talking, and that has been giving others more to debunk.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

Lacius said:


> When you choose to not be vaccinated, you are willfully increasing the odds of spreading the disease to other people, significantly.





Lacius said:


> It's dishonest and absurd of you to repeatedly take the fact that the vaccines significantly reduce the odds of contracting and spreading COVID-19 and rephrase it this way.



Choosing not to take the vaccine is not increasing odds, which I've stated before is the crux of your false dilemma.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lilith Valentine said:


> Can you cite evidence that we don't have long-term data on the covid-19 vaccine.



Lol.



Lilith Valentine said:


> Can you cite evidence that +0 is not an increase



Mmm....



Lilith Valentine said:


> Can you cite evidence that a lack of evidence exists



Sorry, but it's not worth engaging.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Choosing not to take the vaccine is not increasing odds, which I've stated before is the crux of your false dilemma.


Nobody is saying that not getting the vaccine magically increases your odds of contracting the virus relative to your odds before the vaccines were released. We are correctly pointing out that an unvaccinated person has significantly higher odds of contracting and spreading COVID-19 relative to a vaccinated person.

If your argument boils down to crying "false dilemma" in response to a straw man, you probably shouldn't bother. You're only going to embarrass yourself.

If you choose not to be vaccinated, you're accepting significantly higher odds that you will contract and spread the virus relative to your vaccinated counterparts. That's a fact, and that's why there's a moral imperative to get vaccinated.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Choosing not to take the vaccine is not increasing odds, which I've stated to before is the crux of your false dilemma.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Don’t edit my quotes. You are the one making claims, you are the one required to provide sources. You have spent this entire thread making claims and provided 0 sources to back them up. You’ve even argued against sources that disproved your claims and provided 0 sources or pieces of evidence to back up your arguments. Why can’t your provide a single source? The most you’ve done was provide some cherry picked dodgy video, which has been dissected since being posted. Now you’ve resorted to your old bullshit of editing quotes so you can create your own straw man out of the people calling out your bullshit. I would be shocked by your arrogance but then I remember that you are the same person who believes in other debunked conspiracies and most likely is a Q-Supporter or part of some other political cult


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Don’t edit my quotes. You are the one making claims, you are the one required to provide sources. You have spent this entire thread making claims and provided 0 sources to back them up. You’ve even argued against sources that disproved your claims and provided 0 sources or pieces of evidence to back up your arguments. Why can’t your provide a single source? The most you’ve done was provide some cherry picked dodgy video, which has been dissected since being posted. Now you’ve resorted to your old bullshit of editing quotes so you can create your own straw man out of the people calling out your bullshit. I would be shocked by your arrogance but then I remember that you are the same person who believes in other debunked conspiracies and most likely is a Q-Supporter or part of some other political cult



If I did not properly paraphrase the claims that you wanted citations for, then please clarify.  Recently you asked for a source in response to a claim that "we don't know the future." You want a source for that?  Lol no.  Provide a source that says we do know the future.  Most issues I've had was due to the misrepresentation and poor phrasing of the sources already provided.  In the fact check of the doctor, I made direct references to the provided article and to the interview I presented.



Lilith Valentine said:


> I remember that you are the same person who believes in other debunked conspiracies and most likely is a Q-Supporter or part of some other political cult



Then your memory fails you.



Lacius said:


> If you choose not to be vaccinated, you're accepting significantly higher odds that you will contract and spread the virus relative to your vaccinated counterparts. That's a fact, and that's why there's a moral imperative to get vaccinated.



It's not a moral imperative to preemptively take on a risk to prevent the risk of another.  People have choices other than "take the vaccine or kill people."  It's not my moral imperative to take a vaccine so you can feel safe.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's not my moral imperative to take a vaccine so you can feel safe.


I like how you try to downplay things. (intense sarcasm if you can't tell)
"so you can *feel* safe"
You know. there's a difference between feelings, and fact tabzer. I swore some person said that before near your political spectrum.
Fact wise, covid 19 has killed more than cancer at this point. Second leading cause of death in the United States. There's no _feeling_ to being safe. You're either playing with fire, risking yourself getting sick and others. Or your not. If you can take the vaccine, have no medical reason to believe you cannot, such as a immune disorder or issue, by all means you should take it.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> If I did not properly paraphrase the claims that you wanted citations for, then please clarify.  Recently you asked for a source in response to a claim that "we don't know the future." You want a source for that?  Lol no.  Provide a source that says we do know the future.  Most issues I've had was due to the misrepresentation and poor phrasing of the sources already provided.  In the fact check of the doctor, I made direct references to the provided article and to the interview I presented.


You made comments regarding concerns about possible future outcomes. The source I requested was in regards to there being evidence as to why we should be concerned about possible effects of vaccines years down the line. This wasn't a request to predict the future, this was a request to see sources as to why we should be concerned? What evidence is there to suggest possible health concerns 10+ years down the line?
The interesting note is that you are trying to move the goal away from your other previous claims. You've made countless claims in this thread and been asked to provide sources to all of them. You've made claims that unvaccinated people aren't the problem, what's the source? You've made claims that herd immunity isn't very effective (or something akin to that,) what are your sources? You've made quite a number of claims in this thread, then processed to dance around source requests.


tabzer said:


> We have evidence and facts


Here's literally a quote you saying that you have "evidence and facts," yet you've not provided any of the evidence you've claimed to have.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

Reual said:


> I like how you try to downplay things. (intense sarcasm if you can't tell)
> "so you can *feel* safe"
> You know. there's a difference between feelings, and fact tabzer. I swore some person said that before near your political spectrum.
> Fact wise, covid 19 has killed more than cancer at this point. Second leading cause of death in the United States. There's no _feeling_ to being safe. You're either playing with fire, risking yourself getting sick and others. Or your not. If you can take the vaccine, have no medical reason to believe you cannot, such as a immune disorder or issue, by all means you should take it.



Assuming my political spectrum is kind of a problem that is irrelevant to the conjecture.

Saying I should get vaccinated is like your unwanted and unwarranted medical opinion.

And it's based on how you feel about the collective of what you read about a subject where knowledge is admittedly limited (by the same sources that reccomend the vaccine no less @Lilith Valentine)

"Fact wise, covid 19 has killed more than cancer at this point."

Add that to the propaganda collection.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Assuming my political spectrum is kind of a problem that is irrelevant to the conjecture.
> 
> Saying I should get vaccinated is like your unwanted and unwarranted medical opinion.
> 
> ...


You talking shit about sources, while providing none of your own, that's just laughable.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> You've made claims that unvaccinated people aren't the problem, what's the source?



The disease is the problem.  It's potential victims are not the problem.  It's a logical assessment.



Lilith Valentine said:


> You've made claims that herd immunity isn't very effective (or something akin to that,) what are your sources?



I made the claim that it was unreasonable to assume that herd immunity can be reached if there aren't enough people in support of the vaccine that is required for herd immunity.  This is another logical assessment.



Lilith Valentine said:


> You made comments regarding concerns about possible future outcomes, the source I requested was in regards to there being evidence as to why we should be concerned about possible effects of vaccines years down the line.



The most applicable evidence (source) in this context is my mention of how the CDC has been adding side effects post-release of the vaccine.  The CDC has observed side-effects that exceed their anticipated outcomes.  If you are genuinely disputing this, then we can find you a couple news articles about it.  I assume people aren't goldfish, but I really have no clue with you.



Lilith Valentine said:


> Here's literally a quote you saying that you have "evidence and facts," yet you've not provided any of the evidence you've claimed to have.



We have evidence and facts, in reference to everything everyone has put on the table.  Literally, I am not saying that "I" have facts and you don't.

Hope that clears it up.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 15, 2021)

Not worth engaging... So you've been spamming this thread with fallacies and idiotic beliefs (including your wrong understanding that spike proteins would be part of the vaccine when they are not, not for the mRNA ones anyway, and AstraZeneca is a mRNA vaccine), and for what? For it not being "worth engaging"? If you're not going to provide any reliable source about your claims, you're as good as not being listened to by anyone mate.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The disease is the problem.  It's potential victims are not the problem.  It's a logical assessment. *Still needs a source.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Typical tabzer, big claims, no sources.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 15, 2021)

"The virus is the problem, we have a solution to the virus, but people not taking the solution is not a problem"
Well, that's quite fucked up logic there ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Not worth engaging... So you've been spamming this thread with fallacies and idiotic beliefs (including your wrong understanding that spike proteins would be part of the vaccine when they are not, not for the mRNA ones anyway, and AstraZeneca is a mRNA vaccine), and for what? For it not being "worth engaging"? If you're not going to provide any reliable source about your claims, you're as good as not being listened to by anyone mate.



I don't know what I believe about the spike proteins.  I shared my understanding about it without misrepresenting it as a fact.

My understanding is that the mRNA vaccine tells the body how to make a spike protein, as opposed to others that already contain them.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lilith Valentine said:


> Typical tabzer, big claims, no sources.



Learn math and logic.  I can't quite find the peer reviewed study that will convince you to stop being an idiot.

The sources are the ones that are provided in the thread.  

My conjecture is about those sources.  

It's not a big claim that it is unreasonable to assume that herd immunity can be reached if there aren't enough people in support of the vaccine that is required for herd immunity.  That's a logical statement. 

Like crap.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 15, 2021)

Nah, it only makes the cells in the arm make a small piece of the protein, which is the only part needed to be recognised by the immune system, so definitely not the whole protein. Furthermore and as I *already stated* at least once yesterday, those small fragments of protein stay localised in the muscle where they are produced before being destroyed by the immune system, they don't get to navigate through the blood vessels, at least not as far as where the clots have been happening (mostly in bigger and critical vessels)


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I don't know what I believe about the spike proteins.  I shared my understanding about it without misrepresenting it as a fact.
> 
> My understanding is that the mRNA vaccine tells the body how to make a spike protein, as opposed to others that already contain them.
> 
> ...


I've been following this thread for quite some time and the only thing you've posted has been a link to a cherry-picked video from a single doctor. You have not provided any links to any peer-reviewed research nor accepted medical institute. You claim you can't find one, which is most likely because none of your claims are actually backed by professionals. The issue with your stance on herd immunity is that it works far better when all individuals who can get vaccinated, do get vaccinated. It does suffer from people not getting vaccinated, the evidence for that statement exists by the fact that drops in vaccinations have caused diseases once considered either nearly wiped or rare, to start spreading again. People stopped vaccinating and these viruses started spreading again, this isn't a coincidence. Thus far, you've only proven to have no evidence for any of your claims and you just subvert the questions when pressured.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Assuming my political spectrum is kind of a problem that is irrelevant to the conjecture.
> 
> Saying I should get vaccinated is like your unwanted and unwarranted medical opinion.
> 
> ...






Reual said:


> 607,000 deaths
> 33.9M cases.
> United states. Alone. Those numbers aren't adding the entirety of the worldwide.
> 
> ...


The second source for the covid death number comes from google. who just compiles the numbers.

Refute it proper. Or get out.  Unless your calling basic statics "propaganda" at which point, your firmly a loss cause.


----------



## notimp (Jul 15, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Not worth engaging... So you've been spamming this thread with fallacies and idiotic beliefs (including your wrong understanding that spike proteins would be part of the vaccine when they are not, not for the mRNA ones anyway, and AstraZeneca is a mRNA vaccine), and for what? For it not being "worth engaging"? If you're not going to provide any reliable source about your claims, you're as good as not being listened to by anyone mate.


>mRNA vaccines give instructions for our cells to make a harmless piece of what is called the “spike protein.”
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

*hrm*

The problem with the unwanted interaction is, that when they are produced in a cells nucleus, there is a chance of them splitting, producing truncated versions of that protein which then dont connect to the cell itself, but are released into open blood stream and in 1:100.000 cases can cause blood clotting. This is only a mechanism happening with vector based vaccines, using adeno-viruses to deliver the payload. mRNA based vaccines are exempt. (See: https://theconversation.com/from-ad...f-different-covid-vaccine-technologies-145454 )

Also - thats a theory which might not fully explain why we are seeing blood clotting with AZ. It centainly doesnt explain, why we see much fever cases with J&J (which is also an andenovirus based vector vaccine) (as in more than 20x fewer).

But its still what a physician thats now part of 4Chan anti-vaxxer PR memes (he also worked on the miracle cure, which so sad governments wouldnt give us) used as his finest hour moment to 'warn the world of spikes!'.

When the rest of the world looked at that and said yeah, we have to look at this in more detail, and maybe pivot away from AZ in vaccine procurement (using that as the main vaccine we give out to the public - which it isnt in Europe, and it never was in the US).

But its not Spikey spikey make bloodvuessuel hurt, in the way the good doctor decided to warn his peers, before becoming a mainstake of a new conspiracy theory.

And all the rest of it - the 'save people from getting the vaccine part' (J&J = 1:3.000.000 chance of having the side effect, Pfizer even less (much, much less (factor of 10)) ), the 'all vaccines are dangerous part', the you are 'better off if you get it naturally part', the 'its better do use a therapeutic than a vaccine part', the 'save the pregnant women part' all of them are bullshit. None of them is even slightly proportionate as a response to the issue found.

And then the believe by association thing. 'I believe in the doctor that tells me what I want to hear, even if its an obviously a the masses targeting meme', because 'meme tells me , that doctor is very accomplished (in cardeology), and also a good person', 'and also has been wronged' and 'this all has something to do with spike protein'. Its maddening. Because the association path is wrong at every intersection. Its based on a religious believe in some people that the people in white coats are halfgods in white, that are there to protect them - thats a theme so reduced in content - that all thats left is 'I dont understand them, but they do me good, so they good people'. Compared with some 'they have been wronged, they tried to help us, but then their miracle cure wasn't let to be developed' plotline, and then f'cking 5 qualifiers, what a destinguished person that doctor was. Mostly in cardeology. But then he also was a Covid action group something something. Never named clearly at all. (Btw. the miracle cure they were finding, isnt named either).
And all of it to flipping hide, what the person actually said.

Which turned out to be utter nonsense. Both in terms of how the interaction goes that might lead to blood clotting. And in terms what reasoning that person employed afterwards to give out the warning. But the meme doesnt give direct quote. You have to look them up on fact checking sites afterwards. The meme is too freaking busy - pointing out what a swell person that doctor is.

Do you know something about propaganda? This is propaganda. Highly emotional. Highly diversive. Completely rooted in story telling and not fact. Leaving out any aspect, that would lead to easy fact checking...

And you can move around this rhetorically as many times as you want (I believe it has something to do with spike protein!) - its trash.

And the first thing that points towards this - is that a flipping bunch of viruses use spike proteins to pierce your bodies cells to then deliver the payload - and none of them kills the host, as it is infecting them 'through spike proteins damaging blood vessles', because then the host is dead, and so is the virus. Meaning fail. In terms of natural selection.

But apparently the good doctor - a cardeologist - didnt think that far, when making his statement. So now both the factcheck site, and myself are left to find interpretations of what the good doctor meant, when he dropped his BS line - because the originator of the anti vaxxer meme has gone into hiding and shut up.

Luckily there is only one study that he might have read that both contained blood clotting as a result of covid vaccines and the word blood vessels which he used. And reading that study shows that the doctor made some pretty lax free associations, before defaulting to his position that 'all the vaccines are bad'.

Complete moron that one. I have similar candidates (also physicians) in my own (extended) family... (They arent anti vaccine, ... have to give them that much.)


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

Reual said:


> The second source for the covid death number comes from google. who just compiles the numbers.
> 
> Refute it proper. Or get out.  Unless your calling basic statics "propaganda" at which point, your firmly a loss cause.



Lol, "Fact wise, covid 19 has killed more than cancer at this point" is sensationalist clickbait material.  Thanks for clarifying what you actually meant.  Considering how America handles Covid, it's not much of a surprise.



Lilith Valentine said:


> You claim you can't find one, which is most likely because none of your claims are actually backed by professionals.



I can't find a peer-reviewed paper that will convince you stop being an idiot.  The study is on-going. 




Lilith Valentine said:


> The issue with your stance on herd immunity is that it works far better when all individuals who can get vaccinated, do get vaccinated. It does suffer from people not getting vaccinated, the evidence for that statement exists by the fact that drops in vaccinations have caused diseases once considered either nearly wiped or rare, to start spreading again.



See, that's your problem.  You are having trouble reading what I actually say.  I don't disagree that heard immunity works.  I'll say it again: you cannot expect to reach heard immunity if enough people don't support vaccinations...  That's a math fact.  Getting mad about that won't change anything.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Lol, "Fact wise, covid 19 has killed more than cancer at this point" is sensationalist clickbait material. Thanks for clarifying what you actually meant. Considering how America handles Covid, it's not much of a surprise.









Wow. must be some really powerful clickbait. I'm glad you checked my sources. You know *I guess the CDC Is now a news organization is that correct? Is that what your implying?*



Tazer _doesn't read sources I list, one of them being the cdc_
Also Tabzer: _MuSt Be cLiCk  BaiT_


it's not sensationalist if it's real tab.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 15, 2021)

Reual said:


> View attachment 269978
> View attachment 269977
> Wow. must be some really powerful clickbait. I'm glad you checked my sources. You know *I guess the CDC Is now a news organization is that correct? Is that what your implying?*
> 
> ...



"Fact wise, covid 19 has killed more than cancer at this point" is sensationalist clickbait material that you said, without context.  The CDC doesn't say anything like that. Thanks for clarifying what you actually meant (ie, for the year, for America, maybe). Again, considering how America handles Covid, it's not much of a surprise.  You are an idiot if you think I am saying that 607,000 people didn't die.




Lacius said:


> https://archive.md/9lG0l



The video doesn't play unless you copy and paste the link listed in the description.  (The rumble link)  It's really a great watch and I recommend everyone to watch it.  It has convinced me to be anti-covid vaccination.  Everyone should follow this doctor's example.  All of your claims against him (false claims, misleading claims, and the true non-contextual claims) make sense after watching this video.

You are peddling propaganda by institutions that have already demonstrated failure and paved the way for so much death in their response (ie suppression of response) to Covid-19.  The governing medical bodies, including the CDC have already violated the Hippocratic oath. 

I hope the lid blows open soon.

Any further responses to me will be met with me posting the same link, because it is probably the most important thing I can contribute to this thread.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 15, 2021)

Moderna is not only using mRNA for the Flu, but Zika, HIV, and Cancer as well.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's not a moral imperative to preemptively take on a risk to prevent the risk of another.  People have choices other than "take the vaccine or kill people."  It's not my moral imperative to take a vaccine so you can feel safe.


There is no substantial risk taking the vaccine, and any serious risks associated with the vaccine are far less likely than the serious risks associated with contracting COVID-19. There's no way out of the moral imperative unless you're medically unable to get vaccinated.

A moral imperative doesn't require that there's zero risk in doing the action.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



tabzer said:


> The video doesn't play unless you copy and paste the link listed in the description.  (The rumble link)  It's really a great watch and I recommend everyone to watch it.  It has convinced me to be anti-covid vaccination.  Everyone should follow this doctor's example.  All of your claims against him (false claims, misleading claims, and the true non-contextual claims) make sense after watching this video.
> 
> You are peddling propaganda by institutions that have already demonstrated failure and paved the way for so much death in their response (ie suppression of response) to Covid-19.  The governing medical bodies, including the CDC have already violated the Hippocratic oath.
> 
> ...


What this cardiologist has said is demonstrably unscientific and has been repeatedly debunked, and saying "I like the video" doesn't address any of the refutations against him. If you want to drop the conversation and wave a metaphorical white flag of surrender each time someone responds to you, I think that'll be more than fine with most of the people actively participating in this thread.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 15, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I can't find a peer-reviewed paper that will convince you because I don’t have any.
> See, that's your problem.  You are having trouble reading what I actually say.  I don't disagree that heard immunity works.  I'll say it again: you cannot expect to reach heard immunity if enough people don't support vaccinations...  That's a math fact.  Getting mad about that won't change anything.


I see, then why are you doing this? If you are aware of the basic needs of herd immunity, then why all of this nonsense?


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 15, 2021)

Because apparently it's funny to go "herd immunity won't work unless enough people support vaccination... hence I won't support it and say anyone can believe what they want as if all things were equal"
Or something like that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Lacius (Jul 15, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> See, that's your problem.  You are having trouble reading what I actually say.  I don't disagree that heard immunity works.  I'll say it again: you cannot expect to reach heard immunity if enough people don't support vaccinations...  That's a math fact.  Getting mad about that won't change anything.


People who get mad that there are anti-vaxxers who are preventing herd immunity from being reached are justified in feeling angry, and it isn't necessarily angry nor wrong to acknowledge this, the safety of the vaccines, the efficacy of the vaccines, and the moral imperative there is to get vaccinated. The goal is to present medical information in the hope that people get change their mind and get vaccinated.

You also seem to be saying that you understand the consequences of people not getting vaccinated, but that you aren't going to get vaccinated anyway. That's pretty assholeish.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 15, 2021)

What have I become?!


----------



## tabzer (Jul 16, 2021)

Lacius said:


> https://archive.md/9lG0l



The video doesn't play unless you copy and paste the link listed in the description. (The rumble link) It's really a great watch and I recommend everyone to watch it. It has convinced me to be anti-covid vaccination. Everyone should follow this doctor's example. All of your claims against him (false claims, misleading claims, and the true non-contextual claims) make sense after watching this video.

You are peddling propaganda by institutions that have already demonstrated failure and paved the way for so much death in their response (ie suppression of response) to Covid-19. The governing medical bodies, including the CDC have already violated the Hippocratic oath.

If you are going to entertain and share "debunking" then it is a moral imperative to review the source material.  It's bad when an article misrepresents an event in intention to discredit someone.  It's even worse when random fans of an institution will add another layer of obfuscation just to encourage ignoring the other side of the argument.

As far as herd immunity or any other topic goes, it's not rational to expect unlikely outcomes and then get mad when the unlikely outcome does not happen.

You can be mad about reality, but that doesn't seem to do any good.

As far as the government institutions' malfeasance and gross embellishment of the pandemic through suppression of doctors to care for their patients...

I hope the lid blows open soon.

Any further responses to me will be met with me posting the same link, because it is probably the most important thing I can contribute to this thread.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 16, 2021)

That thing has been debunked several times in this thread already, get lost tabzer.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 16, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> That thing has been debunked several times in this thread already, get lost tabzer.



No it hasn't. Tell me which American served vaccine has more deathrate/side effects ratio than the current one, for starters. In the video, he clearly refers to vaccination history of America--not leaving it open to things like lethal injection via death penalty.

It's things like that which show how disengenious the "debunks" are, and it's stupid. "Fact checker" aka, same old news media rebranded to sound like they have more integrity than ever before, misquotes someone in order to smear them. Then people like Lacius further botch the quotes and remove more context to make it sound even dumber. How stupid it sounds is mainly an attribute of what Lacius posts, not the original source.

Also, it's interesting that there is no refutation to the malfeasance claimed of the institutions that @Lacius is propping.



Lacius said:


> https://archive.md/9lG0l



The video doesn't play unless you copy and paste the link listed in the description. (The rumble link) It's really a great watch and I recommend everyone to watch it. It has convinced me to be anti-covid vaccination. Everyone should follow this doctor's example. All of your claims against him (false claims, misleading claims, and the true non-contextual claims) make sense after watching this video.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 16, 2021)

@tabzer This cardiologist's meanderings have been debunked. Some highlights can be found in one of my previous posts:


Lacius said:


> Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated that the vaccines have caused thousands of deaths and hospitalizations.
> Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly, and hyperbolically, stated that the vaccines are "the most lethal toxic biologic agent ever injected into a human body in American history."
> Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated that natural immunity from COVID-19 is "way better" than getting the COVID-19 vaccine.
> Fact: This cardiologist incorrectly stated COVID-19 survivors "can’t get the virus," so they don’t need to be vaccinated.
> ...


I agree with you that our conversation has probably run its course, but you probably shouldn't be spamming the thread with the same copy/pasted stock response, and if you are going to share a link to video filled with debunked pseudoscientific nonsense, please don't quote my old post to do it, particularly without the context of the rest of my post. I don't need the alert, and I don't want to be associated with it. Thank you.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 16, 2021)

Covid cases doubled in the past few weeks. Covid cases some are younger people getting sicker, spike has been going up all because people refuse to get the vaccine especially with the new delta variant. It's mostly hitting uncacinated people. Surgeon General saying everyone of us has the power to make a difference lives are depending on it. Basically been saying what lacius has been saying that it's a moral imperative to get the vaccine.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 17, 2021)

Lacius said:


> if you are going to share a link to video filled with debunked pseudoscientific nonsense, please don't quote my old post to do it, particularly without the context of the rest of my post. I don't need the alert, and I don't want to be associated with it.



The quote that you are contesting seems to be this:



Lacius said:


> https://archive.md/9lG0l



Ironic that you are upset that it doesn't "include context", yet it's so easy to do when you choose to smear someone.

Anyway, the quote *does* include a direct link to the post of where it came from and the context.  By clicking the arrow, it takes you right to it, without obfuscation.   I share the link with people who rely on your claims that it has been debunked so that they can see how the source contradicts your mis-application of context, your insertion of desired context, and intentional mischaracterizing of the doctor.  It isn't intend to be a form of harassment or spam.  It is a link straight to the "horse's mouth" in response to people making claims about content that they demonstrate a lack awareness of--with your full support.

I would encourage those, who are interested, to read my previous post in which I outline the malicious game of telephone that you are playing and the inevitable corrupted message that you output.

But more importantly, listen to the doctor before relying on irresponsible and malicious claims about the doctor.

Go to the link Lacius supplied, and then find the rumble url in the description.  Clicking it doesn't work, because it has been re-coded to another archive link that doesn't include the video.  You have to copy/paste the actual URL.  It's a little funny as I asked for a source, but it appears that Lacius didn't want it to be easily accessible--so the best he could do is a picture of a video?


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 17, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> spike proteins would be part of the vaccine when they are not, not for the mRNA ones anyway, and AstraZeneca is a mRNA vaccine



AZ is not an mRNA vaccine.

Do some research before posting.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 17, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The quote that you are contesting seems to be this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you want to share that link, do it without quoting me. If you have problems with the link, post a different one when you want to reference the video. You asked me for where this cardiologist idiotically said the COVID-19 vaccines are the most toxic thing injected into our bodies in American history, and I've provided it. If you have something to say in response to this post or a previous post where I explained what he got horribly wrong, respond to those posts.

The video includes information that has been debunked. If you want to talk about how it hasn't been debunked, please explain what I got wrong, how I got it wrong, and provide sources. Otherwise, there probably isn't any reason to quote or tag me.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 17, 2021)

This thread: T_here are no vax concerns/detractors in the medical community and if they are they are quacks & wrong.  Now I am going to say debunked 50 more times.  
_
I am going to be taking my Doctors advice, when I asked if he was taking it he laughed and said, "Fuck no."


----------



## linuxares (Jul 17, 2021)

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html

A good method how to kill a virus. Yes, it's the same as COVID-19. A virus that spread via droplets. The vaccine killed it off from most of the world. The more that get vaccinated against covid-19 with proven working vaccines (Sinovac isn't proven to be good or bad yet) we will be fine in time. I don't like people arguing with "my feelings" when it comes to a dangerous virus.

The swine flue and bird flue wasn't a global pandemic that force lockdowns in the same way.
Swine flu was easy to transmit but the deadly outcome was super low, hench why countries didn't all close the doors.
Bird flu was mostly between birds and very few wild ones. It was mostly between poultry locally. So whole farms got all birds removed and killed.

COVID-19 spreads super fast, very deadly and is very hard to detect from a normal flu.

Oh... You know why some vaccines are mandatory? When people are so dangerous to society that government must go in to protect the people from themselves and the society as a whole.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 17, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> I am going to be taking my Doctors advice, when I asked if he was taking it he laughed and said, "Fuck no."


The voices in your head didn't finish medical school Jimbo, sorry.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 17, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> This thread: T_here are no vax concerns/detractors in the medical community and if they are they are quacks & wrong.  Now I am going to say debunked 50 more times.
> _
> I am going to be taking my Doctors advice, when I asked if he was taking it he laughed and said, "Fuck no."


There are very few anti-vaxxers in the medical community. The science of vaccines is sound, and the COVID-19 vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective. Approximately 96% of American doctors have received the vaccine. Those in the medical community who are anti-vax are indeed "quacks."

If your doctor is saying "fuck no" to you getting an important vaccination, and there isn't a medical reason why you shouldn't, you should probably get a new doctor. Saying "fuck no" to the vaccine is contrary to the medical science.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 17, 2021)

linuxares said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/polio.html
> 
> A good method how to kill a virus. Yes, it's the same as COVID-19. A virus that spread via droplets. The vaccine killed it off from most of the world. The more that get vaccinated against covid-19 with proven working vaccines (Sinovac isn't proven to be good or bad yet) we will be fine in time. I don't like people arguing with "my feelings" when it comes to a dangerous virus.
> 
> ...



I do not what the law is in Sweden but mandatory Vaccines are a violation of the Hippocratic oath and The Declaration of Geneva (Physician’s Oath) adopted by the General Assembly of the World Medical Association at Geneva in 1948.

Any medical procedure without informed consent is a violation of human rights.



> There are very few anti-vaxxers in the medical community.



Is that why on a daily basis in my news feed I read about hospitals doing mass firings because of medical staff refusing...

Trust medical staff!!!* DEBUNKED DERP DEBUNKED!!! STATISTIC I PULLED OUT OF AIR% DEBUNKED!* Unless they disagree with the government.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/houston-hospital-vaccine-resign-fired_n_60d2c6e5e4b0b6b5a15f9d48


----------



## linuxares (Jul 17, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> I do not what the law is in Sweden but mandatory Vaccines are a violation of the Hippocratic oath and The Declaration of Geneva (Physician’s Oath) adopted by the General Assembly of the World Medical Association at Geneva in 1948.
> 
> Any medical procedure without informed consent is a violation of human rights.



https://ourworldindata.org/childhood-vaccination-policies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_policy

etc. etc. etc.

Sweden is more or less mandatory, but no. It's just recommendation that like every single parent do since they want health children and not let them die of a single cough.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 18, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> This thread: T_here are no vax concerns/detractors in the medical community, and if they are they are quacks & wrong.  Now I am going to say debunked 50 more times.
> _
> I am going to be taking my Doctors advice, when I asked if he was taking it he laughed and said, "Fuck no."


Considering no one has actually made a post providing verified and peer-reviewed research indicating any major concerns against vaccines, it's pretty safe that there isn't a significant amount of medical professionals against the vaccines.
Either you are going to a complete quake of a doctor or you just flat made that up because no real doctor would do that. Worth adding, if your doctor is some crap like a homeopathic or chiropractor, then aren't real doctors and didn't get a real medical degree.


jimbo13 said:


> Is that why on a daily basis in my news feed I read about hospitals doing mass firings because of medical staff refusing...
> 
> Trust medical staff!!!* DEBUNKED DERP DEBUNKED!!! STATISTIC I PULLED OUT OF AIR% DEBUNKED!* Unless they disagree with the government.
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/houston-hospital-vaccine-resign-fired_n_60d2c6e5e4b0b6b5a15f9d48


Anyone in the medical field refusing to do their job to treat and take care of people should be fired. If some anti-vaxxor made their way into a hospital staff, they should be fired as they risk people's health. Anti-vaxxors should not be practicing medicine as they are clearly not qualified for the job.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 18, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Anyone in the medical field refusing to do their job to treat and take care of people should be fired.



That would be about %90+ of all doctors.  Those who followed institutional (CDC, NHIS, etc) guidelines to refuse treatment of people suspected to have Covid, at least until after 2-weeks, or symptoms became serious enough to force hospital care (by then which was too late).  Of course, doctors were threatened and even had their licenses revoked for trying to help people.  It is my summarization, but you can get the direct context from a source @Lacius provided:  https://archive.md/9lG0l  (Refer to the actual URL text within the source to get to a working video--you can do it)  It is recommended because I wouldn't want you to rely on my words or interpretation, as I am not a doctor.

Of course @Lacius claims that there are parts of the video that are "debunked" (which I disagree with, as anyone with a brain and attention span to watch the video can see the baselessness of Lacius's claims).  The important point, though, is that this specific claim of institutional malfeasance and doctor compliance remains untouched/ignored by the psuedo-debunkery Lacius provided.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 18, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Of course @Lacius claims that there are parts of the video that are "debunked" (which I disagree with, as anyone with a brain and attention span to watch the video can see the baselessness of Lacius's claims).


Perhaps you should show us how my claims are baseless instead of baselessly crying "baseless," lol.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 18, 2021)

tabzer said:


> That would be about %90+ of all doctors.  Those who followed institutional (CDC, NHIS, etc) guidelines to refuse treatment of people suspected to have Covid, at least until after 2-weeks, or symptoms became serious enough to force hospital care (by then which was too late).  Of course, doctors were threatened and even had their licenses revoked for trying to help people.  It is my summarization, but you can get the direct context from a source @Lacius provided:  https://archive.md/9lG0l  (Refer to the actual URL text within the source to get to a working video--you can do it)  It is recommended because I wouldn't want you to rely on my words or interpretation, as I am not a doctor.
> 
> Of course @Lacius claims that there are parts of the video that are "debunked" (which I disagree with, as anyone with a brain and attention span to watch the video can see the baselessness of Lacius's claims).  The important point, though, is that this specific claim of institutional malfeasance and doctor compliance remains untouched/ignored by the psuedo-debunkery Lacius provided.


Show us some sources, you coward.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Perhaps you should show us how my claims are baseless instead of baselessly crying "baseless," lol.



The one that piqued my interest in which I requested a source has been satisfactorily understood to be ignoring the contextual premise of "vaccines in America", to which made the request "which vaccines in America are more dangerous than the Covid-19 vaccines?"  There was no response.

You can see the context for yourself, in a source that you provided, that you apparently didn't review:

https://archive.md/9lG0l

Again, refer to the rumble URL to find the location of a working video.

I can, and probably will, dissect each point of failure (and misdirection, etc) of yours when my vacation starts.

But for now, it is easy to GO TO THE SOURCE PROVIDED and see for yourself.  @Lilith Valentine, idiot.  It is _*the*_ source.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 18, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The one that piqued my interest in which I requested a source has been satisfactorily understood to be ignoring the contextual premise of "vaccines in America", to which made the request "which vaccines in America are more dangerous than the Covid-19 vaccines?"  There was no response.
> 
> You can see the context for yourself, in a source that you provided, that you apparently didn't review:
> 
> ...


So no peer-reviewed paper or anything other than just one guy's claims. You cheery-picked some random doctor who agrees with you but also someone who hasn't published any of their ideas to be peer-reviewed nor really just verified. This isn't a source, it's a cherry-picked interview you are hoping makes up for the lack of proper sources. Show some actual sources, show something that has been reviewed by other medical professionals.


tabzer said:


> That would be about %90+ of all doctors. Those who followed institutional (CDC, NHIS, etc) guidelines to refuse treatment of people suspected to have Covid, at least until after 2-weeks, or symptoms became serious enough to force hospital care (by then which was too late).


This is your claim, what are the sources to back up these claims? What's the source backing up "90%+" of all doctors?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 18, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The one that piqued my interest in which I requested a source has been satisfactorily understood to be ignoring the contextual premise of "vaccines in America", to which made the request "which vaccines in America are more dangerous than the Covid-19 vaccines?"  There was no response.


What?



tabzer said:


> I can, and probably will, dissect each point of failure (and misdirection, etc) of yours when my vacation starts.


Make sure you tag me, or respond to my posts directly, when you choose to post something that actually contains some substance, and don't forget to provide evidence.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 18, 2021)

I don't know if this video has been posted but it's excellent.

The numbers media state and the way they going about it is misleading and drives more vaccine hesitancy.


The point of the vaccine isn't about prevention. It isn't prevention from getting the virus at all. The point of the vaccines are preventing hospitalization and death.


The efficacy numbers of the different vaccines aren't very useful, important but not useful for selling the vaccine to the public. What's more important metric is if they prevent death & hospitalizations against covid and all vaccines have a 100% success rate against those 2 things which is why they passed clinical trails.


There is still a chance you can get sick from covid with the vaccine. But that not what the vaccine is for. It isn't prevention. The point of the vaccine is tame the virus, to defang it, to protect your body from getting a more severe condition. If you just get the sniffles then that better then hospitalization. And as long as it does that and prevents a more severe condition then thats the vaccine doing work.


We have a cure against death from covid and people are more afraid of the cure then the virus.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 18, 2021)

SG854 said:


> I don't know if this video has been posted but it's excellent.
> 
> The numbers media state and the way they going about it is misleading and drives more vaccine hesitancy.
> 
> ...



The point of the vaccine is to prevent infection and, if a breakthrough infection occurs, to prevent hospitalization/death.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The point of the vaccine is to prevent infection and, if a breakthrough infection occurs, to prevent hospitalization/death.


The main point is to prevent death. You can still get infected with the vaccine.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> The point of the vaccine is to prevent infection and, if a breakthrough infection occurs, to prevent hospitalization/death.


It's 100% effective against death. We have a cure against death from covid.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 18, 2021)

SG854 said:


> The main point is to prevent death. You can still get infected with the vaccine.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


You can still get infected with COVID-19 even if you are vaccinated, and you can still die from COVID-19 even if you are vaccinated. The vaccines are approximately 70-95% effective against being infected with COVID-19, and the vaccines are very effective (over 99%) at preventing death by COVID-19. For this reason, everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated. However, the percentage of vaccinated COVID-19 deaths isn't 0%.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You can still get infected with COVID-19 even if you are vaccinated, and you can still die from COVID-19 even if you are vaccinated. The vaccines are approximately 70-95% effective against being infected with COVID-19, and the vaccines are very effective (over 99%) at preventing death by COVID-19. For this reason, everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated. However, the percentage of vaccinated COVID-19 deaths isn't 0%.


Do you know of any person that got the vaccine and died from covid?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 18, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Do you know of any person that got the vaccine and died from covid?


As of early July, 99.2% of COVID-19 deaths in the United States were unvaccinated. 0.8% of COVID-19 deaths were vaccinated. That shows the vaccines are extremely effective, both at preventing infection and death, but they aren't 100% effective at either.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> As of early July, 99.2% of COVID-19 deaths in the United States were unvaccinated. 0.8% of COVID-19 deaths were vaccinated. That shows the vaccines are extremely effective, both at preventing infection and death, but they aren't 100% effective at either.


You are right


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 18, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Anyone in the medical field refusing to do their job to treat and take care of people should be fired. If some anti-vaxxor made their way into a hospital staff, they should be fired as they risk people's health. Anti-vaxxors should not be practicing medicine as they are clearly not qualified for the job.



Since when has 153 staff a at single hospital hospital been a isolated incident?   If you think a hospital had 153 unqualified Doctors & nurses you have a lot bigger problems than Covid, and that's one hospital.

Maybe you should check your ego and realize 153 trained front line medical workers didn't just make a knee jerk reaction without cause and stop spewing idiotic rhetoric at people.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> As of early July, 99.2% of COVID-19 deaths in the United States were unvaccinated. 0.8% of COVID-19 deaths were vaccinated. That shows the vaccines are extremely effective, both at preventing infection and death, but they aren't 100% effective at either.


That's about the same for pretty much all vaccines, which is that one can still get sick but just not as bad compared to if they were unvaccinated. This is coming from someone who still gets the flu, despite getting the flu shot. The main difference when I do get the flu is that it often only last a few days compared to the first time I got the flu without having gotten the flu shot. The first time I got the flu, it lasted well over 2 weeks. The reason I still get the flu is that I have an immune system disorder, my immune system is weakened and thus I am still prone to infection despite preventive measures. Being vaccinated helps curve the infection, I still get infected, it's just nowhere near as bad as the times when I didn't get a flu shot. This is why I always get my shots because I am ok with knowing that I might still get a little sick, but it won't be nearly as bad compared to not getting vaccinated.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 18, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That's about the same for pretty much all vaccines, which is that one can still get sick but just not as bad compared to if they were unvaccinated. This is coming from someone who still gets the flu, despite getting the flu shot. The main difference when I do get the flu is that it often only last a few days compared to the first time I got the flu without having gotten the flu shot. The first time I got the flu, it lasted well over 2 weeks. The reason I still get the flu is that I have an immune system disorder, my immune system is weakened and thus I am still prone to infection despite preventive measures. Being vaccinated helps curve the infection, I still get infected, it's just nowhere near as bad as the times when I didn't get a flu shot. This is why I always get my shots because I am ok with knowing that I might still get a little sick, but it won't be nearly as bad compared to not getting vaccinated.


I'm a control-freak who's generally pretty health conscious, and I almost never get sick. My immune system is at least average, I use hand sanitizer every half hour or so at work, I always get my flu shot, and my lifestyle is pretty healthy (I run most days, my diet is quasi-vegetarian, my BMI is good, blah blah blah).

But, then I got COVID-19 in January of this year, and although my case was mild, it was not fun. Nobody likes being sick, but I hate it, and I was close to driving two hours across state lines to get vaccinated back in late February before my county started offering vaccines in early March to those in my profession. Anything to give myself some semblance of control.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm a control-freak who's generally pretty health conscious, and I almost never get sick. My immune system is at least average, I use hand sanitizer every half hour or so at work, I always get my flu shot, and my lifestyle is pretty healthy (I run most days, my diet is quasi-vegetarian, my BMI is good, blah blah blah).
> 
> But, then I got COVID-19 in January of this year, and although my case was mild, it was not fun. Nobody likes being sick, but I hate it, and I was close to driving two hours across state lines to get vaccinated back in late February before my county started offering vaccines in early March to those in my profession. Anything to give myself some semblance of control.


I clean myself but not to the extreme you do. I like to live a little. Get my hands dirty. Eat my steak medium rare.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 18, 2021)

SG854 said:


> I clean myself but not to the extreme you do. I like to live a little. Get my hands dirty. Eat my steak medium rare.


I interact with 130+ students per day at my job.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I interact with 130+ students per day at my job.


I work in a big warehouse where I'm in close proximity of 100+ people


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 18, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I interact with 130+ students per day at my job.





SG854 said:


> I work in a big warehouse where I'm in close proximity of 100+ people


I sometimes stand too close to people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I used to do sales, which exposed me to a lot people and I was constantly getting sick before masks became a thing. I was better when they were a thing but now I am pretty much required to avoid any jobs that interact directly with people


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...ls-attack-and-set-on-fire-two-vaccine-centres

Zee French are getting zee crazies.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> https://www.connexionfrance.com/Fre...ls-attack-and-set-on-fire-two-vaccine-centres
> 
> Zee French are getting zee crazies.


Don't you mean the French anti-vaxxers are crazy?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Don't you mean the French anti-vaxxers are crazy?


Well, I'd be pissed too if the president and government were trying to force experimental vaccines on me or get threatened with force, but that's just me though.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Well, I'd be pissed too if the president and government were trying to force experimental vaccines on me or get threatened with force, but that's just me though.


My understanding is nobody is forcing people in France to get vaccinated under "threat of force," and the vaccines are not "experimental." They've been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

Edit: Are you arguing that vandalism is okay?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

Lacius said:


> My understanding is nobody is forcing people in France to get vaccinated under "threat of force," and the vaccines are not "experimental." They've been demonstrated to be safe and effective.
> 
> Edit: Are you arguing that vandalism is okay?


If the BLM and Antifa riots are to go by, then yes lol


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> If the BLM and Antifa riots are to go by, then yes lol


Are you hypocritically arguing that vandalism during BLM protests is bad, but anti-vaccine vandalism is permissible?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Are you hypocritically arguing that vandalism during BLM protests is bad, but anti-vaccine vandalism is permissible?


Rioting and looting over the death of a drug addict who OD is wrong, but when push comes to shove when a government tries to act tyrannical and tries to either become a communist (or Fascist) nation and try to disregard basic human rights, tensions will predictably flare and sometimes it'll comes to blows if the situation calls for it.

Take that as you will I just thought it was interesting what's going on in France right now, it could spread to the US, but who knows.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Rioting and looting over the death of a drug addict who OD is wrong, but when push comes to shove when a government tries to act tyrannical and tries to either become a communist (or Fascist) nation and try to disregard basic human rights, tensions will predictably flare and sometimes it'll comes to blows if the situation calls for it.
> 
> Take that as you will I just thought it was interesting what's going on in France right now, it could spread to the US, but who knows.



"Systemic police violence against people of color = no permissable vandalism in response"
"Availability of a voluntary vaccine, in the middle of a deadly pandemic, that has been demonstrated to be safe and effective = permissable vandalism in response"
Your priorities are clear.

And for the record, I'm not arguing vandalism is permissible in either case.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

Lacius said:


> "Systemic police violence against people of color = no permissable vandalism in response"
> "Availability of a voluntary vaccine, in the middle of a deadly pandemic, that has been demonstrated to be safe and effective = permissable vandalism in response"
> Your priorities are clear.
> 
> And for the record, I'm not arguing vandalism is permissible in either case.


Ok so just twist what I said and turn it into a way to make it look like I'm some evil and diabolical madman and you're the righteous one in your own little world, gotcha.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Ok so just twist what I said and turn it into a way to make it look like I'm some evil and diabolical madman and you're the righteous one in your own little world, gotcha.


I didn't twist anything. You condemned vandalism that occurred during BLM protests, but you rationalized vandalism by anti-vaxxers in France.

You also said to "take it as I will." I guess you've changed your mind.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 20, 2021)

As i understand it france wants to force it but only for nurses and similar jobs. On one side i can understand it but on the other it only fuels the anti-vax fire.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I didn't twist anything. You condemned vandalism that occurred during BLM protests, but you rationalized vandalism by anti-vaxxers in France.
> 
> You also said to "take it as I will." I guess you've changed your mind.


I know. I can still point out you have a twisted mind though.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

ghjfdtg said:


> As i understand it france wants to force it but only for nurses and similar jobs. On one side i can understand it but on the other it only fuels the anti-vax fire.


As I understand it, various things require getting vaccinated (and rightfully so), but nobody is being forced to get vaccinated, especially "by threat of force."



BitMasterPlus said:


> I know. I can still point out you have a twisted mind though.



Do you have any evidence of that?
People who are on the right side of an argument generally don't need to resort to personal attacks. Next time, instead of saying "you have a twisted mind," say something like, "Your position is twisted, here is why, and here is evidence backing up my claim."


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 20, 2021)

Lacius said:


> As I understand it, various things require getting vaccinated (and rightfully so), but nobody is being forced to get vaccinated, especially "by threat of force."


Yes, but people who refuse get fired basically.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

ghjfdtg said:


> Yes, but people who refuse get fired basically.


Specifically with regard to healthcare positions, like in hospitals or nursing homes, that may be appropriate.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

Lacius said:


> As I understand it, various things require getting vaccinated (and rightfully so), but nobody is being forced to get vaccinated, especially "by threat of force."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just calls it how I sees it, like based on your previous posts here on this site.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 20, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I just calls it how I sees it, like based on your previous posts here on this site.


You need to actually explain how I was wrong if you're going to argue I was wrong. Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 20, 2021)

With mask mandates and lockdowns being the likelihood again in the near future, the only people remaining to blame are the unvaccinated. The vaccinated are not the ones continuing to spread this, so who's left to blame? Doesn't take a genius. So when we're all forced to sit the fuck at home again and do nothing for god knows how fucking long this time... you anti-vaxxers can blame YOURSELVES. Thanks. Thanks tons, for the lockdowns becoming a very real possibility again. Because of your own ignorance and selfishness, we're all going to suffer. AGAIN. Thanks. Clap clap.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 20, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> With mask mandates and lockdowns being the likelihood again in the near future, the only people remaining to blame are the unvaccinated. The vaccinated are not the ones continuing to spread this, so who's left to blame? Doesn't take a genius. So when we're all forced to sit the fuck at home again and do nothing for god knows how fucking long this time... you anti-vaxxers can blame YOURSELVES. Thanks. Thanks tons, for the lockdowns becoming a very real possibility again. Because of your own ignorance and selfishness, we're all going to suffer. AGAIN. Thanks. Clap clap.




Um.....these people got vaccinated, got covid, and are spreading the virus it seems. So, do we blame them still even though they got the shots?


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Um.....these people got vaccinated, got covid, and are spreading the virus it seems. So, do we blame them still even though they got the shots?




Does efficacy mean anything to you? Vaccinated folks can still get the virus, but they're both less likely to suffer severe symptoms and less likely to catch it. The fewer people who get it, the fewer vectors there are to continue spreading it. With enough people vaccinated, the virus can ideally die off entirely, before it mutates any further and surpasses efforts to curtail it. MAGIK!

... No but seriously, please try thinking about these things for like, five minutes before you post garbage. Kthnx.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Does efficacy mean anything to you? Vaccinated folks can still get the virus, but they're both less likely to suffer severe symptoms and less likely to catch it. The fewer people who get it, the fewer vectors there are to continue spreading it. With enough people vaccinated, the virus can ideally die off entirely, before it mutates any further and surpasses efforts to curtail it. MAGIK!
> 
> ... No but seriously, please try thinking about these things for like, five minutes before you post garbage. Kthnx.


But people treat the vaccine as the cure all solution,and get mad when people don't take it since they think it can prevent the virus, which it can to a degree, but you can still get it and...you see how this is confusing. You see why some may not take this vaccine with all the god damn mental gymnastics?

Some people will choose not to get the vaccine. Deal with it. Get over it.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> But people treat the vaccine as the cure all solution,and get mad when people don't take it since they think it can prevent the virus, which it can to a degree, but you can still get it and...you see how this is confusing. You see why some may not take this vaccine with all the god damn mental gymnastics?
> 
> Some people will choose not to get the vaccine. Deal with it. Get over it.



The point, ironically, is to get over it, and those who don't get the vaccine are the problem helping to prevent it. Nobody says the vaccine is a miracle cure-all for the situation, but it can be the tool to counter it if everyone got on board. No vaccine is 100% effective and without side effects, but it is obviously the best option going forward.

Everyone who doesn't get it, barring a preexisting medical condition or complication, is endangering everyone else and should be kept away from social functions until the pandemic is handled. Them's the facts. Deal with it. By vaccinating and continuing to wear masks.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> The point, ironically, is to get over it, and those who don't get the vaccine are the problem helping to prevent it. Nobody says the vaccine is a miracle cure-all for the situation, but it can be the tool to counter it if everyone got on board. No vaccine is 100% effective and without side effects, but it is obviously the best option going forward.
> 
> Everyone who doesn't get it, barring a preexisting medical condition or complication, is endangering everyone else and should be kept away from social functions until the pandemic is handled. Them's the facts. Deal with it. By vaccinating and continuing to wear masks.


Nope. Don't have to cuz you don't tell me or others what to do :3


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Nope. Don't have to cuz you don't tell me or others what to do :3



Sure, you and others sadly have that right, but don't cry if folk don't want you nearby as a result. You can roll in medical sewage, too, but the point is that you shouldn't if you care about your own health or the health of others.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Sure, you and others sadly have that right, but don't cry if folk don't want you nearby as a result. You can roll in medical sewage, too, but the point is that you shouldn't if you care about your own health or the health of others.


I'm pretty sure I can find like minded people and friends just fine thanks.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I'm pretty sure I can find like minded people and friends just fine thanks.



I mean, yeah, there's groups for anything. Doesn't make them smart, sensible, or safe... And it's only welcoming until somebody catches a clue~


----------



## Xzi (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> You can roll in medical sewage


They totally would, too.  All you have to do is convince them it would "pwn the libs" somehow, which wouldn't be hard.  These are the same people that fall for the 'dihydrogen monoxide' prank every year.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> You can roll in medical sewage


Considering how most of California, and I think also a majority of Democrat runs places as well, have the streets covered in feces and hypodermic needles, I'd say the other side already beat us to the punch on rolling around in sewage lol


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I'm pretty sure I can find like minded people and friends just fine thanks.


Unfortunately for the rest of us who aren't complete assholes, you will find like-minded people. 


BitMasterPlus said:


> Nope. Don't have to cuz you don't tell me or others what to do :3


I am not even going to try to convince people anymore, I just gonna call them out for the idiots they are. People not getting vaccinated are dangerous idiots who allowed themselves to be convinced by other dangerous idiots that not getting vaccinated is a sane thing to do.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Unfortunately for the rest of us who aren't complete assholes, you will find like-minded people.
> 
> I am not even going to try to convince people anymore, I just gonna call them out for the idiots they are. People not getting vaccinated are dangerous idiots who allowed themselves to be convinced by other dangerous idiots that not getting vaccinated is a sane thing to do.


And people can do the same to you and others, calling out idiots.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And people can do the same to you and others, calling out idiots.


There's a big difference here, people getting vaccinated are actually doing their part to keep themselves and their community safe. They are literally doing what they can to prevent the spread of diseases, this isn't just limited to COVID-19. Vaccines are historically, medically, and scientifically proven to help prevent/lower the spread of diseases. Movements against vacations and or encouraging "freedom of choice" are based entirely on misinformation spread through dangerous individuals. All evidence shows the harmful nature of these movements. This evidence includes the continuous spread of COVID-19 and the raise of once previously considered nearly removed/rare diseases clearly shows the dangers of choosing not to get vaccinated. This isn't some "both sides" kind of argument when one side is clearly responsible for harming both themselves and others around them, that side is those against vaccines/"freedom of choice." This isn't a debate, anti-vax/"freedom of choice" is flat wrong and their opinions on the matter should not nor should ever be respected.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And people can do the same to you and others, calling out idiots.



The irony is lost on you, child, but thanks for playing.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> The irony is lost on you, child, but thanks for playing.


Oh yeah, it sure is, kid.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Um.....these people got vaccinated, got covid, and are spreading the virus it seems. So, do we blame them still even though they got the shots?




No need for me to answer, it's already been done for me in other replies to your pure fucking stupidity and ignorance on the entire subject.


----------



## Glyptofane (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Um.....these people got vaccinated, got covid, and are spreading the virus it seems. So, do we blame them still even though they got the shots?



Can't you see that 3, then 5, then 6, and now "more COVID breakthrough cases among staff than publicly announced" means it's working? Just trust the government, media, and multibillion dollar pharmaceutical corporations science.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> No need for me to answer, it's already been done for me in other replies to your pure fucking stupidity and ignorance on the entire subject.


So don't answer and project yourself unto me, ok.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> So don't answer and project yourself unto me, ok.



Dearie, the point is that no projection or anything needs be done. You've flown your flag, you'd rather be a low key plague spreader than listen to facts and logic. 



Glyptofane said:


> Can't you see that 3, then 5, then 6, and now "more COVID breakthrough cases among staff than publicly announced" means it's working? Just trust the government, media, and multibillion dollar pharmaceutical corporations science.



Congratulations, you win the "I have no idea what science are!" award!  Your prize is a lovely gif to go with your tinfoil hat!


----------



## Glyptofane (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Congratulations, you win the "I have no idea what science are!" award!  Your prize is a lovely gif to go with your tinfoil hat!


Well, I mean I did used to do stuff like that with pet rats without disease as far as I know anyway.


----------



## J-Machine (Jul 21, 2021)

69% of us want to be vaccinated. nice...


----------



## djpannda (Jul 21, 2021)

Alabama doctor says this about her Covid patients, some of whom are dying: “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

*Republican Whip Rep.Steve Scalise gets COVID vaccine, calls it 'safe and effective"*

Funny Now that Most death are in deep Red States, Republican leaders are *NOW* saying its safe and take it... Guess killing too many of your own followers are bad for voting..


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 21, 2021)

At least not all of the republicans are fear mongering, greedy morons. He is a good example for his party.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> So don't answer and project yourself unto me, ok.



A dictionary and reading comprehension refresher would serve you well. Project? How many times do I need to call you a hypocrite?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> A dictionary and reading comprehension refresher would serve you well. Project? How many times do I need to call you a hypocrite?


You're a hypocrite but ok.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You're a hypocrite but ok.



I see what you did there. Have anything original? Try again.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You're a hypocrite but ok.



I'd just walk away at this point, love. You've kinda deflated after spitting your two cents and coming up a dollar short, but I guess you're welcome to "No you do!" until you get pouty-time out of your system.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 21, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I'd just walk away at this point, love. You've kinda deflated after spitting your two cents and coming up a dollar short, but I guess you're welcome to "No you do!" until you get pouty-time out of your system.


You keep talking yet it's about nothing.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 22, 2021)

So a lot of conservative religious and political leaders have very recently done a 180 on this issue and started to tell their followers to get the vaccine.  Apparently they're _just now_ figuring out that killing off your own voter base isn't a good idea, and that this might lose them the mid-term, even though they lost the state of Georgia in 2020 for the same reason.  It will be extremely interesting to see how much push-back they get, because I think they went too hard, too long on the anti-vax talking points to effectively reverse position now.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You're a hypocrite but ok.


You must look into the mirror to reveal the true truth. The one pointing the finger is pointing three fingers back.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 22, 2021)

It give it about 2 week and The Right is going to be proud and boost on vaccination numbers in the south. Lol .. then they just going to move on to the next Booggy man to scare the base.


----------



## wartutor (Jul 22, 2021)

I find it hilarious that most people telling everyone they "have" to get the vaccine and it is the "moral" thing to do is the same people that was standing in line at an abortion clinic screaming my body my choice a few months/years ago. I have nothing against people wanting to get vaccinated and I believe its everyone's own choice. Now being an essential employee this entire time watching how the unessential trash sits at home and gets more from the government than most of the ones they call essential would make a week (sometimes 2 or 3 times more money) and how Noone seemed to care. How the government only cares about taking care of the upper/upper middle class and could care less about any of the deemed essential why should any of them trust this (or any) government.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 22, 2021)

wartutor said:


> Now being an essential employee this entire time watching how the unessential trash sits at home and gets more from the government than most of the ones they call essential would make a week (sometimes 2 or 3 times more money) and how Noone seemed to care. How the government only cares about taking care of the upper/upper middle class and could care less about any of the deemed essential why should any of them trust this (or any) government.


Talk about misplaced outrage.  The government doesn't control how much your job pays you.  And of course corporations would rather shovel out some meaningless platitudes like "essential workers," rather than actually give them a raise or benefits.  That's why fast food workers quit in massive numbers recently, and fast food corporations had no choice but to increase the base pay and provide other incentives.

I _do_ think there should've been a national rent and mortgage freeze for most of 2020 and maybe even some of 2021, but with Trump in office when the whole thing started, that was never gonna happen.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

wartutor said:


> I find it hilarious that most people telling everyone they "have" to get the vaccine and it is the "moral" thing to do is the same people that was standing in line at an abortion clinic screaming my body my choice a few months/years ago. I have nothing against people wanting to get vaccinated and I believe its everyone's own choice. Now being an essential employee this entire time watching how the unessential trash sits at home and gets more from the government than most of the ones they call essential would make a week (sometimes 2 or 3 times more money) and how Noone seemed to care. How the government only cares about taking care of the upper/upper middle class and could care less about any of the deemed essential why should any of them trust this (or any) government.


Nobody said anyone "has" to get vaccinated, but there is absolutely a moral imperative to do so.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 22, 2021)

Glyptofane said:


> Well, I mean I did used to do stuff like that with pet rats without disease as far as I know anyway.


Rats, in general, are rather clean, it's normally their by-products and or pests like flees that spread diseases. So yeah, it was pretty safe to handle pet rats because they tend to be a bit cleaner than their wild counterpart, especially if you are an owner who really keeps them clean. I really love pet rats and I have a long history of raising them.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 22, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Nobody said anyone "has" to get vaccinated, but there is absolutely a moral imperative to do so.


By whose standards?


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> By whose standards?



By the standards of people who like people and facts. Y'know, since all the science and history shows that vaccines keep you and your fellow man safe when used in large enough numbers.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> By whose standards?


By just about everybody's standards, including yours.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 22, 2021)

So for the right it's all about your freedoms, correct? You have the RIGHT to not be vaccinated? And people should respect those rights, correct? Okay. But remember other people have rights too. Business owners have the right to not allow you into their business because you are not vaccinated.... respect their right. I don't want to hear the non-vaccinated complaining about it when it happens.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

Nice to hear Covid-19 has ALL Rrights to change/manipulate/cancel Human Rights....very good.

How shitty is it supposed to get ? 

I can't believe how deep we've sunk because of an illness ...

"Yes,but one that threatens Human Lifes !!!"..

Ah..shut up  and spare me.....


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Nice to hear Covid-19 has ALL Rrights to change/manipulate/cancel Human Rights....very good.
> 
> How shitty is it supposed to get ?
> 
> ...



Cry me a fucking river. Please do go on and tell us all about which human rights of yours have been changed/manipulated/cancelled. Do you cry about having to wear a seat belt too? Are your precious freedoms being violated? Gtfo.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Cry me a fucking river. Please do go on and tell us all about which human rights of yours have been changed/manipulated/cancelled.


You live in the USA not in Austria,so maybe an objective Comparison is not really possible/reflects reality.Too different....


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> You live in the USA not in Austria,so maybe an objective Comparison is not really possible/reflects reality.Too different....



So are you going to simply answer my question? Or not?


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> So are you going to simply answer my question? Or not?


Tell me about your US Health system then I'll tell you something about ours and you will see like Fire and Water.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Tell me about your US Health system then I'll tell you something about ours and you will see like Fire and Water.



That's what I thought. Bitching and moaning and bitching and moaning and whining and crying and whining and crying about your rights being taken away, but can't list any of your rights that are being taken away. How did I manage to see that coming from nearly 9,500 miles away?


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> That's what I thought. Bitching and moaning and bitching and moaning and whining and crying and whining and crying about your rights being taken away, but can't list any of your rights that are being taken away. How did I manage to see that coming from nearly 9,500 miles away?



It is maybe easy for you with ENGLISH as Mother Language to tell such Things.
Maybe I will make it interesting for you and write in German and you translate it for yourself and SEE that many Things are wrong translated and not with the Sense I wrote.

I did such Things many Times and evertime People understand half of the Text wrong because of my bad English or wrong Translations.



- Maskenpflicht
- Impfzwang mittlerweile am Abeitsplatz
- Einschränkungen als Nichtgeimpfter in JEDEM Bereich (Veranstaltungen,kulturelle Einrichtungen,öffentliche Einrichtungen wie Strand/See,Cafe,Restaurants,Nachtklub/Disco/Konzerte und so weiter).
- Ohne Test kein Zutritt -ausser zu Geschäften des täglichen Bedarfs.


Und jetz erzähl mir mal was von Rechte und keine Einschränkungen.....




Have fun and understanding on Translating these Lines.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> It is maybe easy for you with ENGLISH as Mother Language to tell such Things.
> Maybe I will make it interesting for you and write in German and you translate it for yourself and SEE that many Things are wrong translated and not with the Sense I wrote.
> 
> I did such Things many Times and evertime People understand half of the Text wrong because of my bad English or wrong Translations.
> ...



English only per forum rules, Please try again.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> English only per forum rules, Please try again.



Maskenpflicht
- Impfzwang mittlerweile am Abeitsplatz
- Einschränkungen als Nichtgeimpfter in JEDEM Bereich (Veranstaltungen,kulturelle Einrichtungen,öffentliche Einrichtungen wie Strand/See,Cafe,Restaurants,Nachtklub/Disco/Konzerte und so weiter).
- Ohne Test kein Zutritt -ausser zu Geschäften des täglichen Bedarfs.


Und jetz erzähl mir mal was von Rechte und keine Einschränkungen.....




> Bitching and moaning and bitching and moaning and whining and crying and whining and crying about *your rights*





Translation:


- Mask requirement
- Compulsory vaccination meanwhile at the workplace
- Restrictions as a non-vaccinated person in EVERY area (events, cultural institutions, public facilities such as beach / lake, cafe, restaurants, night club / disco / concerts and so on).
- No access without a test - except for shops for daily needs.

And now tell me something about rights and no restrictions .....


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> - Mask requirement
> - Compulsory vaccination meanwhile at the workplace
> - Restrictions as a non-vaccinated person in EVERY area (events, cultural institutions, public facilities such as beach / lake, cafe, restaurants, night club / disco / concerts and so on).
> - No access without a test - except for shops for daily needs.
> ...



now stop and think WHY those restrictions are in place and why YOU rather bitch and moan about them than get vaccinated


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> now stop and think WHY those restrictions are in place and why YOU rather bitch and moan about them than get vaccinated



....and tell me please WHY should I get (must) vaccinated ? I am well and healthy.
And vaccinated People are also still Carriers. When will the World finally get that !

So whats the Point to MUST get Vaccinated ?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> ....and tell me please WHY should I get (must) vaccinated ? I am well and healthy.
> And vaccinated People are also still Carriers. When will the World finally get that !
> 
> So whats the Point to MUST get Vaccinated ?


The vaccine makes it a lot less likely that you will contract COVID-19, which means you're a lot less likely to spread it to others. Even if there's a breakthrough infection and you contract COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated, your viral load will likely be a lot lower, and you will still be a lot less likely to spread it to other people. Even if you are young and healthy, you can still catch and spread the disease. That's why there's a moral imperative to be vaccinated.

As for selfish reasons to be vaccinated, you're less likely to contract COVID-19, and it makes you significantly less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death if you have a breakthrough infection. Even if you are young and healthy, you can still catch the disease, and you don't know how bad it will be. There are plenty of people who are young, healthy, and unvaccinated who are contracting the disease, getting hospitalized, and even dying from it. Your odds of contracting COVID-19 and suffering severe symptoms are much higher than the odds of any negative effects associated with the vaccine.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Maskenpflicht
> - Impfzwang mittlerweile am Abeitsplatz
> - Einschränkungen als Nichtgeimpfter in JEDEM Bereich (Veranstaltungen,kulturelle Einrichtungen,öffentliche Einrichtungen wie Strand/See,Cafe,Restaurants,Nachtklub/Disco/Konzerte und so weiter).
> - Ohne Test kein Zutritt -ausser zu Geschäften des täglichen Bedarfs.
> ...



Clap clap on editing for the translation. However, none of those are rights that have been taken away from you.

- You still have the right to choose to not wear a mask
- You still have the right to choose not to take the vaccination
- You still have the right to show up at those places and try to enter. They have the right as the business owner to not allow you inside. Again, no rights being violated here.
- See the last point. Because you chose to not follow the rules, does not mean your rights were violated. You're free to walk right in regardless if they try to, or do, prevent you.

Quit crying because of your own choices. You're 100% free to to whatever you like. The right to enact upon your freedoms does not equate freedom from consequence. Period. Tell your boss to go fuck themself and spit in their face, when you get fired does that mean your freedoms and rights were taken away? Nope, you freely did and said exactly what you wanted. Face the consequence.

This is on you. No one else. Time to suck it up, buttercup. And learn about accountability.


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> ....and tell me please WHY should I get (must) vaccinated ? I am well and healthy.
> And vaccinated People are also still Carriers. When will the World finally get that !
> 
> So whats the Point to MUST get Vaccinated ?


because it doesnt matter if youre well and healthy, you can still get seriously ill from it. the chance of infecting other people diminishes greatly when youre vaccinated, as does the potential seriousness of the illness. because of stubborn people like you all of us have to live with covid way longer than we need to, and thats something YOU dont get


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

"Swimming with the Mass" is much,much easier,well ?

Take him down,the Vaccine Refuser....

Na,it is ok.you all have your Opinion (ONE Opinion).

Finally I got it.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> - Mask requirement
> - Compulsory vaccination meanwhile at the workplace
> - Restrictions as a non-vaccinated person in EVERY area (events, cultural institutions, public facilities such as beach / lake, cafe, restaurants, night club / disco / concerts and so on).
> - No access without a test - except for shops for daily needs.
> ...


In most societies, there are certain rights you don't have if you want to go out in public. You have to wear clothes, you can't violently assault people, you can't engage in lewd behavior, you have to wear seatbelts if you're on the road, you have to follow speed limits if you're on the road, you can't cross the street as a pedestrian in certain locations, etc. These laws are in the public's interest, and COVID-19 mitigations like mask-wearing are also in the public's interest.

In the United States, if you're vaccinated, you can get some of those freedoms (like not having to wear a mask) back.


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> "Swimming with the Mass" is much,much easier,well ?
> 
> Take him down,the Vaccine Refuser....
> 
> ...


you dont get anything, thats the problem


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 22, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> you dont get anything, thats the problem


No Reason to get Personal.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 22, 2021)

This is so tiresome, we went over all of this a billion times already...


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> No Reason to get Personal.



Trust me, it's not personal despite how special you feel you might be. It's ALL of you anti vaxers.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 22, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> "Swimming with the Mass" is much,much easier,well ?
> 
> Take him down,the Vaccine Refuser....
> 
> ...



You seem to be confusing rights and privileges. You actually don't have the right to go swimming anywhere you wish, and if the public decides you're toxic (ha, see what I did there?) and doesn't want you to swim on public property until you fix that, well... It wasn't your property to begin with. Sorry to hear you aren't enjoying the virus, but as a society, smarter folk have a good plan to fix it for everyone!


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 22, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> By the standards of people who like people and facts. Y'know, since all the science and history shows that vaccines keep you and your fellow man safe when used in large enough numbers.





Lacius said:


> By just about everybody's standards, including yours.


Ya'll don't speak for everyone.



D34DL1N3R said:


> So for the right it's all about your freedoms, correct? You have the RIGHT to not be vaccinated? And people should respect those rights, correct? Okay. But remember other people have rights too. Business owners have the right to not allow you into their business because you are not vaccinated.... respect their right. I don't want to hear the non-vaccinated complaining about it when it happens.


There are plenty of businesses that will let anyone in regardless of vaccination status so I'm not worried there.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Ya'll don't speak for everyone.


I didn't claim to speak for everyone, but if you and I agree that we care about the lives of those around us, then you also agree there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated.

As I said in a previous post, the vaccine makes it a lot less likely that you will contract COVID-19, which means you're a lot less likely to spread it to others. Even if there's a breakthrough infection and you contract COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated, your viral load will likely be a lot lower, and you will still be a lot less likely to spread it to other people.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 22, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I didn't claim to speak for everyone, but if you and I agree that we care about the lives of those around us, then you also agree there is a moral imperative to get vaccinated.
> 
> As I said in a previous post, the vaccine makes it a lot less likely that you will contract COVID-19, which means you're a lot less likely to spread it to others. Even if there's a breakthrough infection and you contract COVID-19 after being fully vaccinated, your viral load will likely be a lot lower, and you will still be a lot less likely to spread it to other people.



But it seems to be happening more than not, even though Mr. Biden said if you take the vaccine you won't get the virus.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> But it seems to be happening more than not, even though Mr. Biden said if you take the vaccine you won't get the virus.


The odds of a breakthrough infection are unlikely, but they're significant. For vaccines that are 80-95% effective, you are going to get a lot of breakthrough infections in a population of 333 million people, particularly when a lot of Americans are unvaccinated and spreading the disease like wildfire. If we want to reduce the rate of breakthrough infections, we need to get more people vaccinated.

As I also said in previous posts, the vaccines make you sigifnicantly less likely to contract COVID-19, and they make you significantly less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death if you have a breakthrough infection.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 22, 2021)

Lacius said:


> particularly when a lot of Americans are unvaccinated and spreading the disease like wildfire. If we want to reduce the rate of breakthrough infections, we need to get more people vaccinated.



If there was this _"grand moral imperative_" from the government to stop Covid from spreading  they would address the 150K undocumented, untested illegal aliens entering our heavily populated border states every month. Lot of recycled air with 50 people crammed in to the back of a U-haul or living in a warehouse labor camp as is often the practice.

We aren't going to have significant increases in vaccination rates, it's been available. Everyone is aware of Covid, vaccine availability etc and has made up their mind.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> If there was this _"grand moral imperative_" from the government to stop Covid from spreading  they would address the 150K undocumented, untested illegal aliens entering our heavily populated border states every month. Lot of recycled air with 50 people crammed in to the back of a U-haul or living in a warehouse labor camp as is often the practice.
> 
> We aren't going to have significant increases in vaccination rates, it's been available. Everyone is aware of Covid, vaccine availability etc and has made up their mind.


The problem isn't undocumented immigrants. It's the tens of millions of Americans who are already in this country who willfully won't get vaccinated.

The disease is already here. It doesn't have to be brought over.

Edit: As for making up their minds, people change their minds everyday, particularly the families of unvaccinated people who go to the hospital and/or die of COVID-19.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 22, 2021)

Lacius said:


> As I also said in previous posts


The only thing I've learned from this thread is that no matter how many times facts are restated, the same idiots are going to keep posting. I've also learned that the anti-vax/"freedom of choice" crowd still doesn't have evidence and still hasn't posted any proper sources. That being said, I appreciate you still trying to make sure these dunderheads have their bullshit called out and proper information is spread.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 22, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The problem isn't undocumented immigrants. It's the tens of millions of Americans who are already in this country who willfully won't get vaccinated.
> 
> The disease is already here. It doesn't have to be brought over.
> 
> Edit: As for making up their minds, people change their minds everyday, particularly the families of unvaccinated people who go to the hospital and/or die of COVID-19.



In addition, if the immigration thing is really such a concern... a more humanitarian border approach during covid could be set up, but tbh as someone who lives in the most heavily populated border state, illegal immigrants really aren't half as big a problem as the homeless population (which is not dominantly immigrant and contains a terrifying fraction of us veterans) and other failures of the administrations of the past few... well, ever really, but mostly this millennium.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 22, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The problem isn't undocumented immigrants. It's the tens of millions of Americans who are already in this country who willfully won't get vaccinated.
> 
> The disease is already here. It doesn't have to be brought over.
> 
> Edit: As for making up their minds, people change their minds everyday, particularly the families of unvaccinated people who go to the hospital and/or die of COVID-19.



That's on par with saying "It's already on fire, who cares if I throw gas at it".

150K untested migrants pouring in and living/traveling in confined quarters targeting population centers is unacceptable during a pandemic and wildly inconsistent with restrictions that were placed on Americans.

People change their mind on what to eat for breakfast or what shoes to wear, they do not change their fundamental beliefs routinely on whim. The majority of those who are not getting vaccinated are making that choice based on a fundamental distrust of Government and pharmaceutical industry.

No one is waking up tomorrow and deciding "Gee, yesterday this situation was rife with censorship, lies, institutional deception and malice but they really cleaned their act up".


----------



## Xzi (Jul 22, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> 150K untested migrants pouring in living/traveling in confined quarters targeting population centers is unacceptable during a pandemic and wildly inconsistent with restrictions that were placed on Americans.


Ah yes, the "all immigrants are filthy disease carriers" schtick, that's some good ol' fashioned 50s racism right there.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 22, 2021)

Ironically, people seem to forget the right to life, when it comes to this virus.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> That's on par with saying "It's already on fire, who cares if I throw gas at it".
> 
> 150K untested migrants pouring in and living/traveling in confined quarters targeting population centers is unacceptable during a pandemic and wildly inconsistent with restrictions that were placed on Americans.
> 
> ...



Undocumented immigrants can and do get vaccinated at no cost in the United States.
It's racist nonsense to say or imply that any significant portion of undocumented immigrants have COVID-19.
Mexico, for example, also has vaccinations.
Even just looking at the numbers alone, it's silly to suggest anybody other than the people who willfully don't get vaccinated are the problem.
Demonstrably, people who haven't been vaccinated yet can and do change their minds.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 22, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Ironically, people seem to forget the right to life, when it comes to this virus.



In case it hasn't become apparent, Jimbo believes himself to be a wealthy member of a greater tier of humanity than exists elsewhere in the world... at least in his own head-canon. He literally doesn't believe in any right to life.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 22, 2021)

Does anyone else think of the Jimbo who was hospitalized with COVID-19 in South Park when @jimbo13 posts anti-vax nonsense? As much as I hope you don't contract COVID-19 and/or get hospitalized with it, it's what I think of every single time.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Undocumented immigrants can and do get vaccinated at no cost in the United States.
> It's racist nonsense to say or imply that any significant portion of undocumented immigrants have COVID-19.
> Mexico, for example, also has vaccinations.
> Even just looking at the numbers alone, it's silly to suggest anybody other than the people who willfully don't get vaccinated are the problem.
> Demonstrably, people who haven't been vaccinated yet can and do change their minds.



Mexican is not a race. It is a nationality indicating a country of origin, the only prejudicial behavior is from you dismissing appalling behavior and poor public health policy whenever it is involving progressive pet projects.  It is nonsense to say you have any indication what portion of those people are vaccinated, by definition they are undocumented.

Your behavior mirrors much of what people see in the government, inconsistency fostering distrust. 

I already had Covid according to an anti-body test, wouldn't know because like most healthy people I had no symptoms.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Mexican is not a race.





Lacius said:


> Mexico, for example, also has vaccinations.


dude didn't even state Mexican. He just said "Mexico"
you know, the country...?
congrats on trying to spin another persons words. Or perhaps you should pay attention more


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Mexican is not a race. It is a nationality indicating a country of origin


I don't remember saying all undocumented immigrants were from Mexico. Regardless, if you want to hypothetically argue your bigoted statements technically aren't racist, that still doesn't address the bigotry. Oof.



jimbo13 said:


> the only prejudicial behavior is from you dismissing appalling behavior and poor public health policy whenever it is involving progressive pet projects.


There is nothing about progressive immigration policies that is "poor public health policy." If you want to talk about bad public health policy, please see the former administration's response to the  COVID-19 pandemic.



jimbo13 said:


> It is nonsense to say you have any indication what portion of those people are vaccinated, by definition they are undocumented.


I don't remember claiming to know anything about anybody's vaccination status. That was you.



jimbo13 said:


> Your behavior mirrors much of what people see in the government, inconsistency fostering distrust.


What have I said that was inconsistent?



jimbo13 said:


> I already had Covid according to an anti-body test, wouldn't know because like most healthy people I had no symptoms.


That's great that you had no symptoms, but remember the following:

Just because you are young and healthy does not mean you cannot experience mild, moderate, or severe symptoms from COVID-19, even if you've allegedly already had it once asymptomatically.
Antibody tests do have false positives, and it is entirely possible you never had COVID-19. The false positive rate of some antibody tests can actually be pretty high (approximately 20% of positive tests in some cases).
The delta variant is increasingly affecting "young and healthy" people relative to previous strains.
The best way to reduce your risk of getting COVID-19 and/or suffering severe symptoms is to get vaccinated as soon as possible.
Even if you allegedly had COVID-19 asymptomatically, I will forever picture Jimbo from South Park whenever you spew anti-vax nonsense. You should just embrace it and make him your avatar.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> I already had Covid according to an anti-body test, wouldn't know because like most healthy people I had no symptoms.


1. a vaccine can help with additional strains.
2. A covid 19 vaccine also means that if additional strains pop up, and that vaccine is effective, your odds of spreading that new strain to others is significantly reduced. which covid is a numbers game. Spread to as many people as possible, which also means every person, the immune deficient, those who have a comorbidity, and those who have weaker immune systems, you are putting all of them at risk, because YOU don't want to get a vaccine.
I hate needles, I hate masks. I find it stupid, that out of all my peers, it's the neurotypical people that are bitching and whining about masks. Meanwhile I'm part of the group who mentally responds worse to that kind of shit. Or at least should on damn paper ffs. But I still do my responsibility for others.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

also further more, we might have to go wearing masks again, because your dumbasses decided to keep letting it spread and mutate. Which is just greaaaaat.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> People change their mind on what to eat for breakfast or what shoes to wear, they do not change their fundamental beliefs routinely on whim. The majority of those who are not getting vaccinated are making that choice based on a fundamental distrust of Government and pharmaceutical industry.
> 
> No one is waking up tomorrow and deciding "Gee, yesterday this situation was rife with censorship, lies, institutional deception and malice but they really cleaned their act up".


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ovid-surge-leads-uptick-vaccinations-n1274780

Tell me again a significant number of unvaccinated people aren't changing their minds.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There is nothing about progressive immigration policies that is "poor public health policy."  What have I said that was inconsistent?



Allowing undocumented foreign nationals un-monitored, unfettered free reign to travel anywhere they like no questions asked when we have travel restrictions, quarantines, testing requirements & contacting tracing for citizens is inconsistent to the point of hypocrisy.

You have taken countless jibes at the right flaunting mask mandates, gathering etc.  When the left is exposed doing so you take the gold in mental gymnastics explaining the situation.



> I will forever picture Jimbo from South Park whenever you spew anti-vax nonsense. You should just embrace it and make him your avatar.



Terry Alan Crews is a role model in every aspect of his life. He promotes mental and physical health and is a paragon of character which everyone should emulate. Beyond that he is the single most underrated and under appreciated comedic actor of a generation.

He has always been my avatar and always will be. But more than that he is my spirit animal.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> Tell me again a significant number of unvaccinated people aren't changing their minds.



Well Holy fuck a fluff piece from Springfield Missouri, Pandemic over.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Allowing undocumented foreign nationals un-monitored, unfettered free reign to travel anywhere they like no questions asked when we have travel restrictions, quarantines, testing requirements & contacting tracing for citizens is inconsistent to the point of hypocrisy.
> 
> You have taken countless jibes at the right flaunting mask mandates, gathering etc.  When the left is exposed doing so you take the gold in mental gymnastics explaining the situation.
> 
> ...


He was funny in white chicks 

And is a pc gamer. Jayztwocents built him an old spice pc. He is great I'll give you that.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> There are plenty of businesses that will let anyone in regardless of vaccination status so I'm not worried there.



Then I expect to not hear you crying about how your freedoms are being violated, becasue it all applies to pretty much everything. Not just businesses. You're obviously worried about things quite a bit, or you wouldn't be here peddling your bullshit sob story to begin with.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Allowing undocumented foreign nationals un-monitored, unfettered free reign to travel anywhere they like no questions asked when we have travel restrictions, quarantines, testing requirements & contacting tracing for citizens is inconsistent to the point of hypocrisy.



Do you think COVID-19 testing, quarantining, etc. isn't happening to migrants at the border?
Last I checked, the COVID-19 positivity rate at the border was lower than the positive rate of the states many were migrating into.



jimbo13 said:


> You have taken countless jibes at the right flaunting mask mandates, gathering etc.  When the left is exposed doing so you take the gold in mental gymnastics explaining the situation.


I haven't condoned "flaunting" COVID-19 mitigation strategies, and I'm unaware of anyone on the political left who has.



jimbo13 said:


> Terry Alan Crews is a role model in every aspect of his life. He promotes mental and physical health and is a paragon of character which everyone should emulate. Beyond that he is the single most underrated and under appreciated comedic actor of a generation.
> 
> He has always been my avatar and always will be. But more than that he is my spirit animal.


Based on this quote from him below, I don't think he'd approve of your anti-vax comments.


> VACCINATED.
> So glad to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and thankful for the health care workers, doctors and military worldwide who went to work together to find a solution to this horrible sickness. So much disinformation around this vaccine- but this I know, no vaccine or medicine is 100% safe, but both science and faith work together to heal and protect us. Please get your vaccine while you can... the alternative is just too horrendous to contemplate. It’s really about all of us.





jimbo13 said:


> Well Holy fuck a fluff piece from Springfield Missouri, Pandemic over.


If the best response to proof that you were wrong about the unvaccinated changing their minds at this point to get vaccinated is to shout "fluff piece" and run away, I think I'm okay with that.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 23, 2021)

Funny how the vaccine is losing steam to rile up the base.. With so many republican  lawmakers publiclly taking the vaccine and even FOX New Forcing a Covid Vaccine passport 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





now who wants to tell jumbo and twobitmaster, they need to change their postions in about a week or two with the other "research parrots"


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Based on this quote from him below, I don't think he'd approve of your anti-vax comments.
> 
> If the best response to proof that you were wrong about the unvaccinated changing their minds at this point to get vaccinated is to shout "fluff piece" and run away, I think I'm okay with that.



I've said little of anything criticizing the vaccine in of itself, my comments generally center on the hypocrisy I see in policy and behavior.

I don't put man made substances in my body period. I don't drink liquor, smoke and with rare exceptions I grow and harvest my own food. Everything that enters my body I can trace to the earth. I have never had a vaccination in my life and I wont be starting now.

I support Terry's choice to get the vaccine or anyone else. I don't have to agree with every choice he makes. I admire plenty of people I have disagreements with not that I condemn his choice to do so or not.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 23, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Then I expect to not hear you crying about how your freedoms are being violated, becasue it all applies to pretty much everything. Not just businesses. You're obviously worried about things quite a bit, or you wouldn't be here peddling your bullshit sob story to begin with.


Which sob story? All I'm say is vaccination is and should be a choice. I'm not telling anyone not to take it, but you can't force people. It seems other people are worried about people not being forced to take shit they don't want to so I don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## aerios169 (Jul 23, 2021)

I am doctor, just got the damn vaccine, for moral responsability AND for take care your self AND family, so many people aré dead for ignorance


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> I've said little of anything criticizing the vaccine in of itself, my comments generally center on the hypocrisy I see in policy and behavior.
> 
> I don't put man made substances in my body period. I don't drink liquor, smoke and with rare exceptions I grow and harvest my own food. Everything that enters my body I can trace to the earth. I have never had a vaccination in my life and I wont be starting now.
> 
> I support Terry's choice to get the vaccine or anyone else. I don't have to agree with every choice he makes. I admire plenty of people I have disagreements with not that I condemn his choice to do so or not.



I suppose if every day that isn't a vacation allows you the time to troll-post all over this place, you must be doing well enough to ignore the social ails of the world around you. Why bother developing empathy when you can suck on your silver spoon and hoard your wealth and have your bubble circle jerk you into an unfounded sense of self confidence? Yeesh... disgusting...

If he doesn't have a problem with the vaccine, and his only qualm is the government softly encouraging folk to get it, then this has to just be trolling at this point. There isn't even a counter-argument to getting the vaccine anymore, it has just devolved into "My body, my right!" Which... gods... sounds really familiar... like another argument that the right takes the other direction... oh, I forgot, women AND minorities don't count as people to these jackals.


----------



## Rustygx (Jul 23, 2021)

VAERS Covid Vaccine Death Reporting shows 5,310 (I just went through myself and got 5,310).
There were research studies done prior to Covid to track how many drug/vaccine injuries get reported to VAERS and the range they came up with is 0.3%-1%. Consider the implications of simple data extrapolation on these numbers. It's quite insane.

Furthermore, here's my common sense basic risk/reward analysis:

If I take it can I still get Covid? Yes.
If I take it can I still spread Covid? Yes.
If I take it do I still have to wear a face diaper? Yes.
If I take it and I am injured is the manufacturer liable? No.

Whether you want to admit it or not, things are extremely fishy. Let's not even get started on the economic side of this and how economic warning lights began to go off late 2019 due to interbank lending rate (REPO).

Edit: Without getting into other important points, I'd also like to mention that others have gotten 9,000-12,000 deaths result from the VAERS website (it's not very user friendly) and there is a new lawsuit alleging 45,000 deaths IN 3 DAYS being covered up by VAERS (i.e. the claim is not all submissions being published)


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> VAERS Covid Vaccine Death Reporting shows 5,310 (I just went through myself and got 5,310).
> There were research studies done prior to Covid to track how many drug/vaccine injuries get reported to VAERS and the range they came up with is 0.3%-1%. Consider the implications of simple data extrapolation on these numbers. It's quite insane.
> 
> Furthermore, here's my common sense basic risk/reward analysis:
> ...




Risk to the individual is pointless to collectivists.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> VAERS Covid Vaccine Death Reporting shows 5,310 (I just went through myself and got 5,310).
> There were research studies done prior to Covid to track how many drug/vaccine injuries get reported to VAERS and the range they came up with is 0.3%-1%. Consider the implications of simple data extrapolation on these numbers. It's quite insane.
> 
> Furthermore, here's my common sense basic risk/reward analysis:
> ...



Alrighty, I'm down with this challenge. So, 5,310 folks killed by vaccination? The number I got was 4,903 with the same tool but that falls fairly close, and it really doesn't cover the aftermath in finding out what caused those deaths/how many of those individuals had covid as they got the vaccine. The reporting number doesn't really apply in this situation, because death reporting is pretty reliable, unlike injuries. Current death toll from Covid complications is 626,172 (reported, which if you think the death numbers from vaccinations might not be solid, oh boy is this one likely lowballed...), with an infection rate hitting about 10% of the population at large. Not even considering how many people failed to get covid due to being vaccinated by this point and the benefits of having the illness lessened by the vaccine even in the case of a breakthrough, the vaccine kills 0.008% less than the disease, and has the side benefit of helping to stop it from spreading and further mutating. Should that number be lower? That'd be lovely! Does that mean it shouldn't get used? No.

Fun fact, some people survived the black plague once, too! But if there was a vaccine that only knocked out 0.001% of the population and had an 80% success rate back then, its creator would have been hailed as the saint above all other saints. Nobody thinks Covid will end civilization, but the more we do to mitigate harm to the populous, the sooner we can discard our "face diapers" and get back to normal. You don't want the vaccination? Feel free to stay at home like Jimbo. Don't have the wealth to make that viable? Consider a better form of government that would make that choice more feasible, maybe? 

As for the comment on economics, I'll yield I'm a bit curious what you're getting at. Apologies, but my antisemitism alarm is ringing and I would love to hear some elaboration to set it at ease. All the same, no, things are not fishy, feel free to continue on though! You're a million times more interesting and welcome than the kovid komedy klub we've been getting thus far!

Also, there is actually somebody you can go after that will make the manufacturer liable. The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program acts as something of a middle man, since vaccines aren't actually very profitable and this keeps them circulating even if, say, a quack doctor drums up a bogus autism claim and rallies thousands to sue the manufacturers all at once.
https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html


----------



## Rustygx (Jul 23, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Alrighty, I'm down with this challenge. So, 5,310 folks killed by vaccination? The number I got was 4,903 with the same tool but that falls fairly close. Current death toll from Covid complications is 626,172 (reported, which if you think the death numbers from vaccinations might not be solid, oh boy is this one likely lowballed...), with an infection rate hitting about 10% of the population at large. Not even considering how many people failed to get covid due to being vaccinated by this point and the benefits of having the illness lessened by the vaccine even in the case of a breakthrough, the vaccine kills 0.008% less than the disease, and has the side benefit of helping to stop it from spreading and further mutating. Should that number be lower? That'd be lovely! Does that mean it shouldn't get used? No.
> 
> Fun fact, some people survived the black plague once, too! Nobody thinks Covid will end civilization, but the more we do to mitigate harm to the populous, the sooner we can discard our "face diapers" and get back to normal. You don't want the vaccination? Feel free to stay at home like Jimbo. Don't have the wealth to make that viable? Consider a better form of government that would make that choice more feasible, maybe?
> 
> ...



I'm just gonna go ahead and dismantle all of this.

1)"Current death toll from Covid complications is 626,172"

- https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm

This shows 94.9% of Covid hospitalizations had at least 1 pre-existing condition and 99.1% of the patients who died had at least one pre-existing condition. In more detail on the deaths-- 2.6% had one pre-existing condition, 32.3% had two to five preexisting conditions, 39.1% who had six to ten, and 25.1% who have more than ten preexisting conditions. Straight from the CDC.

- Your pre-emptive argument appears to be: 
"-- 626,172 (reported, which if you think the death numbers from vaccinations might not be solid, oh boy is this one likely lowballed..."
I disagree. I believe these numbers are grossly inflated not just because of the CDC's own statistics above, but also because of the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) test false positive rate being extremely high (and indeed its extremely questionable use for Covid and lack of transparency on cycles used when used). We can get into that in further detail; however, I would suggest you look into the creator of the PCR test Mr. Kary Mullis and his perspective on it (it's quite shocking).

"the vaccine kills 0.008% less than the disease"
You completely ignored the fact that only 0.3-1% of incidents get reported to VAERS. Take out a calculator and do the math using your own findings on VAERS. Data extrapolation holds weight even if it cannot be exact. Also, see above. That claim is highly debatable considering the amount of pre-existing conditions in Covid deaths & hospitalizations. Furthermore, of less importance, my country's Public Health team has admitted to counting any death as a Covid death if that individual had Covid at any point and recovered-- let's not get into how governments can't be trusted though, too much to say on that.

2)" --and has the side benefit of helping to stop it from spreading and further mutating"

- There is literally ZERO proof of this claim. If you could enlighten me with documentation on how this vaccine will prevent spread and mutation, please. Not a mouthpiece saying it, some empirical data or scientific documentation, because the empirical data is showing that Covid is still spreading and mutating (which I question, but that's the official data).

3)" Apologies, but my antisemitism alarm is ringing and I would love to hear some elaboration to set it at ease."

- Where in my post did I make any antisemetic remarks? I would rather not go down to your level on this but you are pathetic for raising such accusation for literally no reason? Wow.

4)"--since vaccines aren't actually very profitable"

- Bill Gates is quoted on CNBC as saying "over a 20:1 return" on a $10 billion investment. $200 billion+ is unprofitable?
- Pfizer is reported to have generated $3.5 billion in the first 3 months of 2021.
- Moderna is reported to have generated $1.7 billion in the first 3 months of 2021 (best quarter on record).

I could get into the nitty gritty on some of these companies, including the fact that Pfizer paid the largest criminal fine ever given in the U.S. for health care fraud settlement over one of their drugs. But let's not bother with that.

In summary, things are extremely fishy and people SHOULD question this vaccine. Cheers.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 23, 2021)

Hey look, another one is changing their story 
*REPUBLICAN Alabama Governor Kay Ivey*: "It’s time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks. It’s the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down”


Lol I gues unvaccinated folks are not normal


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> I don't put man made substances in my body period. I don't drink liquor, smoke and with rare exceptions I grow and harvest my own food. Everything that enters my body I can trace to the earth. I have never had a vaccination in my life and I wont be starting now.


This logical fallacy is called an appeal to nature. Just because something is natural does not mean it's good or better, and just because something is human-made does not mean it's bad or worse. For example, the vaccine is safe and effective, and it's generally much better for you than contracting COVID-19.

I'm an advocate for working with the Earth. My family owns a lot of farms in the rural part of my state, and I personally do a lot of gardening. That being said, I highly recommend the tetanus vaccine for anybody who regularly works with dirt.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



BitMasterPlus said:


> Which sob story? All I'm say is vaccination is and should be a choice. I'm not telling anyone not to take it, but you can't force people. It seems other people are worried about people not being forced to take shit they don't want to so I don't know what you're talking about.


I don't know if I've heard anyone argue that the decision to get vaccinated shouldn't be up to the individual. That doesn't mean, however, that it isn't in a person's best interest to get vaccinated, and it doesn't mean there isn't a moral imperative to get vaccinated.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



jimbo13 said:


> Risk to the individual is pointless to collectivists.


The vaccine offers protection to the individual as well as to society broadly. It's a win-win.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Rustygx said:


> Furthermore, here's my common sense basic risk/reward analysis:
> 
> If I take it can I still get Covid? Yes.
> If I take it can I still spread Covid? Yes.
> If I take it do I still have to wear a face diaper? Yes.



If I take it can I still get Covid? Yes, but the odds of contracting COVID-19 are a lot less if you're fully vaccinated, you're a lot less likely to spread the disease even if you do catch it, and you are a lot less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death if you catch it.
If I take it can I still spread Covid? Yes, but the odds of contracting COVID-19 (and then spreading it) are a lot less if you're fully vaccinated, and you're a lot less likely to spread the disease even if you do catch it.
If I take it do I still have to wear a face diaper? In the United States, with very few exceptions, you don't have to wear masks anymore if you're fully vaccinated.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Which sob story? All I'm say is vaccination is and should be a choice. I'm not telling anyone not to take it, but you can't force people. It seems other people are worried about people not being forced to take shit they don't want to so I don't know what you're talking about.



Oh, you can be forced if that's what they wanted to do. And, your sob story about your rights & freedoms being restricted or taken away.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Rustygx said:


> Furthermore, here's my common sense basic risk/reward analysis:
> 
> If I take it can I still get Covid? Yes.
> If I take it can I still spread Covid? Yes.
> If I take it do I still have to wear a face diaper? Yes.



Apply your idiocy to every other major vaccine in history and your "common sense basic risk/reward" is nothing but a COMPLETE load of bullshit. Do you even THINK before posting this crap? Common sense my ass.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 23, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Oh, you can be forced if that's what they wanted to do. And, your sob story about your rights & freedoms being restricted or taken away.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


No one can force me to do shit, not unless they don't want to get hurt. And on the flip side, don't YOU cry and sob when YOUR rights get violated you arrogant prick.


----------



## aerios169 (Jul 23, 2021)

The vaccine Is for decrese mortality and get less infections. God  i dont know why people are so upset with It. I met doctors that didnt want to get vaccine now they are dead, AND their family, just need a little common sence. As a doctor i am very sad with society because i have to care peoplo who dint give a shit for thwir healty


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> No one can force me to do shit, not unless they don't want to get hurt. And on the flip side, don't YOU cry and sob when YOUR rights get violated you arrogant prick.


Nobody is forcing you to get vaccinated. We're just acknowledging, rightfully so, that your stance is anti-scientific and immoral.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Nobody is forcing you to get vaccinated. We're just acknowledging, rightfully so, that your stance is anti-scientific and immoral.


You say that people don't have to get vaccinated, but also have a passive-aggressive attitude when they don't and have think you're "morally better" or some shit. Let it go and get over it, or don't and be bitter. Don't know what to tell you other than that.


----------



## Hayato213 (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> No one can force me to do shit, not unless they don't want to get hurt. And on the flip side, don't YOU cry and sob when YOUR rights get violated you arrogant prick.



You don't have to, but more likely you going to catch the delta variant of covid19 if you are unvaccinated, either get vaccinated or possibly land in a hospital bed and struggle to breath.


----------



## smf (Jul 23, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The idea that getting vaccinated is a moral imperative is a false dilemma based on a notion, that by not being vaccinated, that you are somehow assaulting people.



In the same way people driving over the speed limit or drink driving are hurting people.

You can drive at 100mph and not kill someone.
You can drive after drinking a bottle of rum and not kill someone.



Rustygx said:


> VAERS Covid Vaccine Death Reporting shows 5,310 (I just went through myself and got 5,310).



Do you actually believe that everyone who died who had previously been vaccinated was because they were vaccinated?

All those people also ate food and took a dump. So you should stop eating and taking a dump just to be sure, right?



BitMasterPlus said:


> You say that people don't have to get vaccinated, but also have a passive-aggressive attitude when they don't and have think you're "morally better" or some shit.



Exactly right. You don't get to be inconsiderate and have a free pass.



BitMasterPlus said:


> No one can force me to do shit, not unless they don't want to get hurt. And on the flip side, don't YOU cry and sob when YOUR rights get violated you arrogant prick.



If you pass covid on to people then you are violating their rights. I wear a mask and got a vaccine mostly because of other people.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> No one can force me to do shit, not unless they don't want to get hurt. And on the flip side, don't YOU cry and sob when YOUR rights get violated you arrogant prick.



Yes, if they wanted to force you, they would. I'd love to see your one man army take on something like a SWAT team crashing through your doors and windows. Best of luck to ya, tough guy. I hope they decide to force you.

And no, I don't cry about such things because I don't feel any of my rights are being violated now or that they have been any time in my past. Keep that box of tissues handy for yourself though, you poor, entitled, spoiled, rotten, little self centered brat.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You say that people don't have to get vaccinated, but also have a passive-aggressive attitude when they don't and have think you're "morally better" or some shit. Let it go and get over it, or don't and be bitter. Don't know what to tell you other than that.


 
As my GREAT  _*REPUBLICAN*_ *ALABAMA* Governor Kay Lvey stated you "choosing a horrible lifestyle of self-inflicted pain." "I want folks to get vaccinated" and "why would we want mess around with just temporary stuff?"

YUP.


----------



## HellaJvke (Jul 23, 2021)

i find it somewhat off-put when people are actively pressuring others to get vaccinated

however if there was a virus going around killing people and the cure makers made a new serum to prevent the virus then id sort of want my loved ones to get it
though its a personal choice and a very debatable one at that, I got the vaccine and was fine, some people i know got the vaccine and it made them sick or they still got covid

either way its crazy that we are dealing with so much uncertainty


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You say that people don't have to get vaccinated, but also have a passive-aggressive attitude when they don't and have think you're "morally better" or some shit. Let it go and get over it, or don't and be bitter. Don't know what to tell you other than that.


It isn't "passive aggressive" to acknowledge an action isn't mandatory while simultaneously acknowledging it's in your best interest and in the best interest of the people around you. Those are  facts.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 23, 2021)

Hayato213 said:


> You don't have to, but more likely you going to catch the delta variant of covid19 if you are unvaccinated, either get vaccinated or possibly land in a hospital bed and struggle to breath.


I'm not worried. I won't catch it. And if I do, I'll get over it and build immunity.



smf said:


> Exactly right. You don't get to be inconsiderate and have a free pass.
> 
> 
> 
> If you pass covid on to people then you are violating their rights. I wear a mask and got a vaccine mostly because of other people.


Actually, according to free speech, you do, otherwise you and a bunch of others don't get free passes either. And "passing on covid" or other diseases isn't violating anyone's rights unless you knowingly have the disease and knowingly infect people with malicious intent, then that's a different story, but unknowingly passing it if you didn't know you had it isn't.



D34DL1N3R said:


> Yes, if they wanted to force you, they would. I'd love to see your one man army take on something like a SWAT team crashing through your doors and windows. Best of luck to ya, tough guy. I hope they decide to force you.
> 
> And no, I don't cry about such things because I don't feel any of my rights are being violated now or that they have been any time in my past. Keep that box of tissues handy for yourself though, you poor, entitled, spoiled, rotten, little self centered brat.


Bitch I can take an army of 1,000,000 if I wanted to. But seriously, we haven't gotten to that point yet over a dumb virus. This ain't China, and if the gov were to do that here, it'd be a civil war first.

And from what I've seen of your posts, you'd be the first bitch to cry because of how much of a punk you were, that I know, you "poor, entitled, spoiled, rotten, little self centered brat" asshole.



djpannda said:


> As my GREAT  _*REPUBLICAN*_ *ALABAMA* Governor Kay Lvey stated you "choosing a horrible lifestyle of self-inflicted pain." "I want folks to get vaccinated" and "why would we want mess around with just temporary stuff?"
> 
> YUP.


Your governor doesn't speak for everyone. My lifestyle, my choice. Don't like it? Tough shit.



Lacius said:


> It isn't "passive aggressive" to acknowledge an action isn't mandatory while simultaneously acknowledging it's in your best interest and in the best interest of the people around you. Those are  facts.


Yes it is actually. Am I saying people ho take the vaccine are stupid and orally wrong? No, because I don't care, it's a choice either way. You and others have a bug up their asses for when people don't take the vaccine. You say you don't mind, but on the inside you hate that you can't make people do it because it's "morally imperative" to do so when it's not. Bottom line, you can't control people, either stop being bitter or continue to be a toxic and unreasonable person.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 23, 2021)

The longer that this virus is a threat, the longer you are going have to wear "face diapers". It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy.


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I'm not worried. I won't catch it. And if I do, I'll get over it and build immunity.


what an incredibly stupid thing to even assume that you wont or cant get covid...


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Yes it is actually. Am I saying people ho take the vaccine are stupid and orally wrong? No, because I don't care, it's a choice either way. You and others have a bug up their asses for when people don't take the vaccine. You say you don't mind, but on the inside you hate that you can't make people do it because it's "morally imperative" to do so when it's not. Bottom line, you can't control people, either stop being bitter or continue to be a toxic and unreasonable person.


When people don't get vaccinated, the infection spreads, people die, and more infectious variants that affect all of us pop up. I mind very much when people choose to not be vaccinated. That is not the same as saying people can or should be forced to get vaccinated. It shouldn't have to be forced. It's the twenty-first century, but some people appear to want to take us back to the seventeenth century.

It is not toxic to acknowledge the vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended. It is not toxic to acknowledge that there actually is a moral imperative to get vaccinated. The only thing that's toxic is spewing anti-vax nonsense.

By choosing to not get vaccinated, you are accepting greater health risks for yourself, and you are accepting greater health risks for those around you. From a moral perspective, one has the right to the former, but not a right to the latter.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

Ratatattat said:


> Once he (BitMasterPlus) graduates the 4th grade and climbs out of the "I" generation he may then see the light. Until then pray he doesn't have children.


Regarding @BitMasterPlus and others, it is important to remember that COVID-denial and vaccine hesitancy come from a place of fear. To acknowledge the very real threat of COVID-19 to oneself and others, as well as the very real efficacy and importance of the vaccines, comes from a place of bravery.

Bravery means overcoming one's fears, not pretending that the things that make you afraid don't exist.

Everyday, people are still overcoming their fears and choosing to get vaccinated.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 23, 2021)

A couple of comments, since the discussion is getting heated:

The federal government does not regulate vaccine mandates, it falls beyond its jurisdiction and might be unconstitutional since the federal government cannot force a citizen to undergo any medical procedure against their will, even if it saves lives.
The state government *can* mandate vaccinations if doing so is a prerequisite for the common good, this has been settled in Jacobson v. Massachusetts in the Supreme Court. Most public health policies are enacted and enforced by the state - if the state mandates it, you *have* to comply under threat of a fine. If you don't like your state mandate, you have to relocate.
Taking the vaccine is highly recommended. The efficacy is exceedingly high, side effects are few and far between, and it protects not just yourself, but also those around you.
With that being said, vaccine hesitancy is understandable and refusing to take it has no bearing on morality as far as I'm concerned - you are not responsible for the health and well-being of third parties, only your own. Everybody has the option to vaccinate themselves in order to immunise themselves against the virus, whether they did or not is not up to you.
Not vaccinating yourself does introduce a mutation vector, which is regrettable, but that's just nature doing its thing. Ideally we'd have a vaccine authorised after extensive testing, however the situation is unprecedented and it does require unprecedented measures. The sooner gen pop can reach herd immunity the quicker we can get back to business as usual.
Tl;dr, no pressure, but it's the smart thing to do. The sample size of vaccinated people is larger than any clinical trial at this point - it's safe. Hesitation is understandable, but you have to weigh the pros and cons here, and go through basic risk assessment. The benefits outweigh the cons from where I'm sitting. I hope we can now move on past the moralising and the arguing.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 23, 2021)

Still trying to debate with myself on rather simply not taking the vaccine is immoral or just neutral. That said, I completely believe taking absolutely no safely precautions against this virus and worse, speading misinformation on top of that is immoral.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 23, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I'm not worried. I won't catch it. And if I do, I'll get over it and build immunity.
> 
> 
> Actually, according to free speech, you do, otherwise you and a bunch of others don't get free passes either. And "passing on covid" or other diseases isn't violating anyone's rights unless you knowingly have the disease and knowingly infect people with malicious intent, then that's a different story, but unknowingly passing it if you didn't know you had it isn't.
> ...




This entire thing just more firmly solidifies every, single, thing people are saying about you. You are constantly full of complete shit and are 100% clueless as to what the fuck is even going on. You don't even understand the most very simplistic basics of the difference between actual human rights and what you feel you are entitled to. And that entire "Bitch I can take an army of 1,000,000 if I wanted to" line is probably one of THE most pathetic and completely laughable things you've ever said. You go on with your bad self, but we all know the reality of your situation:


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Still trying to debate with myself on rather simply not taking the vaccine is immoral or just neutral. That said, I completely believe taking absolutely no safely precautions against this virus and worse, speading misinformation on top of that is immoral.


There is no moral imperative to help others in imminent danger at significant risk to oneself (it is virtuous, however). There is a moral imperative to help others in imminent danger when there isn't significant risk to oneself. Getting vaccinated falls under the latter.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 23, 2021)

You are more likely to die in a traffic accident than to die from one of the vaccines. Even AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson. You are doing both yourself and others a favor by taking a vaccine. I don't think anyone is legally responsible for deaths if he/she doesn't take a vaccine but morally probably.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> I'm just gonna go ahead and dismantle all of this.
> 
> 1)"Current death toll from Covid complications is 626,172"
> 
> ...



Y'know, funny enough, I was actually trying to pay you some respect and tackle everything you brought up, but you took some of my comments out of context (the antisemitism suspicion was because of your mention of interbank), and now you're dancing about wildly with your reply... but you did numbers for yours, so I'll hit yours by number too~

1)" I yield your PCR test information sounds neat. Would love it if you sourced that instead of a CDC document that, in summary, says if you've complications (some that are fairly common) you're more likely to get killed or seriously harmed by Covid. Sadly, Kary Mullis has been dead since before the pandemic even hit, and his comments regarding his nobel prize winning work are in regards to his underlying method that lead to the present day tests being unable to detect how infectious an individual might be, not if they have actually contracted the illness.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...cant-be-used-in-virus-detection-idUSKBN24420X

Next, I actually addressed the reporting statistics, because you seem to be sidestepping something a bit important. Reporting injuries is VASTLY different than reporting... well... death. I would love you to cite the report you mentioned regarding this, but in the absence of your report I'm lead to suspect you're referring to the health insurance company study below. If this is the case... well, it was a report done by an insurance company, which may have a bias, on top of it being a sampling of unreported events, and again, not deaths. Kinda harder to keep those unreported.

https://rickjaffeesq.com/2021/02/19...the-underreporting-of-vaccine-adverse-events/

Lastly... no, I'm challenging you to "go there" with government trust. I'm all about disdain for the establishment, but motivations and means are important to understand and discuss. More on that later.

2)" Ask and ye shall receive, although proving a negative is a task I wager you might not be willing to work with. I can state that because I have a big gun, there are no space aliens raiding my fridge, but you can't outright prove that I'm incorrect there... unless I suppose if you catch a space alien in fact raiding my fridge. The results of breakthroughs are pretty encouraging, though.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/how-they-work.html

3)" I understand your touchiness here, but do relax. I haven't called you a nazi, I'm just stating that when right-aligned individuals bring up international banking, antisemitism often rears its ugly head. I'm inviting you to elaborate on your "lets not get started" bit, because I'd rather like you to elaborate.

4)" Vaccines in general aren't profitable, Covid Vaccination obviously is a whole new bag of crazy due to the private nature which manages the rights. No lie, it is a disgusting thing, and capitalism is pretty easy to fault as a result. Still doesn't change the fact that there is, contrary to your statement, a place you can go to hold the companies liable for damages for vaccination injuries.

In conclusion, I still disagree with everything you said, but you get full marks for trying way harder and with more substance than your peers thus far! Please, do go on, this is what I'm here for! Legit love.


----------



## Rustygx (Jul 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If I take it can I still get Covid? Yes, but the odds of contracting COVID-19 are a lot less if you're fully vaccinated, you're a lot less likely to spread the disease even if you do catch it, and you are a lot less likely to suffer serious symptoms, hospitalization, or death if you catch it.
> If I take it can I still spread Covid? Yes, but the odds of contracting COVID-19 (and then spreading it) are a lot less if you're fully vaccinated, and you're a lot less likely to spread the disease even if you do catch it



There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.


 lol the fact you use "MSM" make your argument non-exsiting as im pretty sure your doing "your own Research"


----------



## Rustygx (Jul 23, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Y'know, funny enough, I was actually trying to pay you some respect and tackle everything you brought up, but you took some of my comments out of context (the antisemitism suspicion was because of your mention of interbank), and now you're dancing about wildly with your reply... but you did numbers for yours, so I'll hit yours by number too~
> 
> 1)" I yield your PCR test information sounds neat. Would love it if you sourced that instead of a CDC document that, in summary, says if you've complications (some that are fairly common) you're more likely to get killed or seriously harmed by Covid. Sadly, Kary Mullis has been dead since before the pandemic even hit, and his comments regarding his nobel prize winning work are in regards to his underlying method that lead to the present day tests being unable to detect how infectious an individual might be, not if they have actually contracted the illness.
> 
> ...



Your first link is a 'Fact Check' from Reuters lol... these are literally always wrong. Instead of typing into google and clicking the first MSM article you could find, how about watch what KARY MULLIS HIMSELF SAID LIVE. Not a paid-off fact checker. Do some actual research into PCR. 'Fact Check' with literally no proof


djpannda said:


> lol the fact you use "MSM" make your argument non-exsiting as im pretty sure your doing "your own Research"



How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> Your first link is a 'Fact Check' from Reuters lol... these are literally always wrong. Instead of typing into google and clicking the first MSM article you could find, how about watch what KARY MULLIS HIMSELF SAID LIVE. Not a paid-off fact checker. Do some actual research into PCR. 'Fact Check' with literally no proof
> 
> 
> How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
> When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.



You can dismiss the article without reading it if you like (though wow, that goes a long way to upping your credibility), but it doesn't put aside the fact that Kary Mullis was dead before the outbreak, and that his statements don't really apply. But hey, I appreciate your pointing out something interesting! Now can you get something relevant, or are you going to don a tinfoil hat and just go back into the right wing hidey hole of "nuh uh! ur dubm!" like the others?


----------



## Rustygx (Jul 23, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> No lie, it is a disgusting thing, and capitalism is pretty easy to fault as a result.



And you have zero understanding of economics also. It's not capitalism if a government forcefully redistributes your wealth to pay for these so-called vaccines when you have no choice in the matter. Governments do not produce anything of value and pay for things by either taxation or borrowing (you still pay for that). It's crony-capitalism at best, communism at worst.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.


Everything I stated is supported by the science.

Edit: Sources (with links to studies) linked below.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html


----------



## djpannda (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
> When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.


yes yes we know ..LIZard People...bla bla bla ... The Freemasons Bla Bla Bla 





Censorship Vs disinformation is the issue. 
You notice most of the people "speaking up" not top tier people.. You ever think they are "speaking out " for the clout and Grifting??


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> Your first link is a 'Fact Check' from Reuters lol... these are literally always wrong. Instead of typing into google and clicking the first MSM article you could find, how about watch what KARY MULLIS HIMSELF SAID LIVE. Not a paid-off fact checker. Do some actual research into PCR. 'Fact Check' with literally no proof
> 
> 
> How? Massive censorship has gone on in every major MSM outlet over the last year. Have you really not noticed?
> When you shine the light at a cockroach it scurries back into the darkness. Doctors speaking out losing their careers and being deplatformed should tell you all that you need to know.



What are your own preferred sources for factual news? What outlets do you watch? Please tell me which channels/stations/outlets I should be tuning into regularly for a big fat helping of brutal honesty.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> And you have zero understanding of economics also. It's not capitalism if a government forcefully redistributes your wealth to pay for these so-called vaccines when you have no choice in the matter. Governments do not produce anything of value and pay for things by either taxation or borrowing (you still pay for that). It's crony-capitalism at best, communism at worst.



And now you've officially confused me. You don't like corporate media outlets, corporate super-hoarders like Bill Gates, or pharmaceutical giants... but its the government that earns your ire. Have you ever considered that the government is corrupted by the monied individuals, and that removing consolidated wealth would make governments more fair? Just saying~

Also, governments produce tons of things of value. Roads, police, schools, sewers, social programs, the infrastructure on which the internet was built, and they are the means by which private individuals can validate and hold onto their individual property. I may not agree or like everything in that list, but they most certainly have value. In communism, you ideally remove the concentration of money, but few governments have actually attempted it in earnest, and the United States for sure doesn't have the ability to claim communism.

It is a lovely style of governing, however, if there is a strong sense of public service in the population. I'm grateful for my time in the US military having shown me how nicely an involved government can take care of dedicated service folk... while they're enlisted, anyways. And during a time of peace.


----------



## MMX (Jul 23, 2021)

Rustygx said:


> There is literally ZERO proof of any of these claims and the data in fully vaccinated countries like Israel for example completely contradicts these points that seem to be derived from absolutely nowhere. There is ZERO reliable test for Covid. Start there, do some actual research instead of watching MSM, then come back to this thread.



with the amount of false positives through various testing methods, it is true. there is no reliable test for covid.


----------



## SaiyaTrunX (Jul 23, 2021)

Since this seems a heated discussion, I will keep it simple:

Got vaccinated a while ago, both shots with biontec/pfizer. No big problems, just a little pain in my back after the first shot. My wife got a cross vaccination astra-zeneca/moderna, both time a little fever for about 5-6 hours. No further problems since then for both of us.

Short story short, feeling bad/sick for a short peroid of time seems like a good trade in for not worrying about covid any more.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> it is important to remember that COVID-denial and vaccine hesitancy come from a place of fear.



It's rather crass to declare what other peoples feelings are when you don't share their experience.  It's a rather common moral tenet of modern progressiveness you don't assign motivation or experience of a people which you are not party too.

First off Covid vaccines are a dangerous enough product that manufacturers will not release them to the market without blanket immunity from lawsuits.  Anyone can spin the minutia to make an argument any way they like. The risk is minimal but it is not zero.

If anyone here is afraid of something it's the pharmaceutical companies of lawsuits.

Most people who do not get  the vaccine are doing so based on accurate information, what is an acceptable risk or inconvenience to you may not be to them.

Secondly is civil disobedience. The partisan divide in vaccinations is not coincidental.

People have contempt for this government, they have been lied too and gaslighted about Covid and have made the decision not to participate in the nonsense.  For many it is a small to risk to take to not be a brownie point on a chart in an agenda they view as politicized.

People are fully capable of reading and understanding the same information as you and coming to a different conclusion about their body.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 23, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> It's rather crass to declare what other peoples feelings are when you don't share their experience.  It's a rather common moral tenet of modern progressiveness you don't assign motivation or experience of a people which you are not party too.
> 
> First off Covid vaccines are a dangerous enough product that manufacturers will not release them to the market without blanket immunity from lawsuits.  Anyone can spin the minutia to make an argument any way they like. The risk is minimal but it is not zero.
> 
> ...


The data shows the vaccines are incredibly safe. It's anti-vax and anti-scientific to suggest they aren't.

One doesn't have to go farther than this thread to see that anti-vax sentiments are largely based on misinformation about COVID-19 and the vaccines.

You and I are in agreement that the government lied about COVID-19, but those lies came from the former president when he attempted to downplay the pandemic for political reasons at the cost of lives.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 24, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The data shows the vaccines are incredibly safe. It's anti-vax and anti-scientific to suggest they aren't.
> 
> One doesn't have to go farther than this thread to see that anti-vax sentiments are largely based on misinformation about COVID-19 and the vaccines.
> 
> You and I are in agreement that the government lied about COVID-19, but those lies came from the former president when he attempted to downplay the pandemic for political reasons at the cost of lives.



Skydiving is incredibly safe, not everyone wants to jump out of a plane.

I'm sorry I can't hear your partisan bullshit over the crickets of Cumo killing thousands of peoples grand parents then covering it up.

Trump did not get on television like Fauci did and lie about masking or spend 6 months shouting the battle cry "Debunked" when addressing a Wuhan lab origin.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Skydiving is incredibly safe, not everyone wants to jump out of a plane.


Skydiving doesn't make it less likely you'll contract an infectious disease. Skydiving doesn't make it less likely you'll suffer serious symptoms or death from a disease. Skydiving doesn't make it less likely you'll spread a potentially deadly disease to the people around you.

Your analogy is egregiously false.



jimbo13 said:


> Trump did not get on television like Fauci did and lie about masking or spend 6 months shouting the battle cry "Debunked" when addressing a Wuhan lab origin.


Fauci did not lie about masking. As I explained in a previous post, the science wasn't clear at the time that normal cloth masks were effective. We only knew at the time that medical grade masks were effective, and those needed to be preserved for medical professionals at the time. As our understanding changed, Fauci's advice changed.

We still don't have any evidence that the pandemic had a lab origin, albeit it's a possibility. There is no evidence the virus was human-made, and we in fact have genetic evidence that contradicts that claim.

If you want to talk about COVID-19 lies from the government, those are limited to claims from the former administration downplaying the pandemic, mask-shaming that occurred after it became clear that masks were effective, claims about hydroxychloroquine, claims about bleach, conspiracy theories about how it would disappear after the election, etc.[/QUOTE]


----------



## djpannda (Jul 24, 2021)

Lol, I saw this and made me think of “people”


----------



## RandomUser (Jul 24, 2021)

Surprisingly my healthcare provider didn't even push for the vaccine, instead I had to request to be on the list for the vaccination. It took a while to get it out to everyone that wanted it in my area, and to that end was able to get the vaccination. The lines were massively long when it arrived.
I still believe that people should have the freedom to choose if they want the vaccine or they don't want it. While the vaccine isn't approved yet by the FDA, hopefully that will change soon. I do recommend people to get the vaccine anyways because the unvaccinated seems to be getting hit hard from the Delta variant. Also the microchip, AFAIK does not currently exist in microscopic form. It should be visible by the naked eye and the needles would have to have be of bigger (or is it smaller?) gauge then what is used for the vaccination.
https://www.cnet.com/health/99-of-covid-deaths-are-now-of-unvaccinated-people-experts-say/


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 24, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> Also the microchip, AFAIK does not currently exist in microscopic form. It should be visible by the naked eye and the needles would have to have be of bigger (or is it smaller?) gauge then what is used for the vaccination.



Injectable microchips are a reality though I do not believe the Covid vax contains one and neither does anyone other than a few handful of fringe individuals.

Microchip claims are used to ridicule people who are rightfully concerned about civil liberties and privacy when it comes to contact tracing and digital passports.

Not every meme, joke and hyperbolic statement was meant to be taken literally as an opportunity for a "Fact checker" to push a narrative.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 24, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> As I was saying? Lmfao. You mad bro? Can't make this shit up, folks. It's just all right there in plain sight for all to see.
> 
> View attachment 270913


He seems more concerned about not being told what to do then the well being of other people. He wants to prove that he don't take orders from anyone more then caring about what's morally right. It's a self centered perspective that teenagers have that he should've grown out of that phase years ago. Like a rebellious teenager but a stupid one.

Proving that is more important to him then doing the smarter thing. Which is self damaging, damaging to others and stupid but at least he can selfishly say I don't take orders from anyone regardless if my choices are stupid and I look dumb.


Sample size is thousands of people now. With very low rates of people dying from the vaccine itself. To be anti covid vaccine and not want to take it is pretty stupid at this point now. But they would rather look like an idiot with their bad logic and try to convince themselves they are not, but everyone else sees them looking stupid regardless.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Microchip claims are used to ridicule people who are rightfully concerned about civil liberties and privacy when it comes to contact tracing and digital passports.
> 
> Not every meme, joke and hyperbolic statement was meant to be taken literally as an opportunity for a "Fact checker" to push a narrative.


People in the anti-vax crowd were/are seriously pushing conspiracy nonsense about microchips in the vaccine, keys sticking to them because they're now magnetized, etc.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 24, 2021)

That's simply not true. You can't make fully functional microchips in this size let alone power them (any kind of wireless transmission requires lots of power). They would also clog the needle and very fine blood vessels. It's the dumbest conspiracy ever spread by conspiracy morons.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

ghjfdtg said:


> That's simply not true. You can't make fully functional microchips in this size let alone power them (any kind of wireless transmission requires lots of power). They would also clog the needle and very fine blood vessels. It's the dumbest conspiracy ever spread by conspiracy morons.


Borg nanoprobes and Borg assimilation when?


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Jul 24, 2021)

What exactly am I supposed to be trying again? Pointing out your obvious and severe anger issues? I don't need to try ANYthing again. I already DID, there was no TRY. You also did most all of the work for me. Thanks! Makes my life a little easier when someone makes a complete fool of themself all on their own. Have a wonderful day!!!


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 24, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Skydiving is incredibly safe, not everyone wants to jump out of a plane.
> 
> Trump did not get on television like Fauci did and lie about masking or spend 6 months shouting the battle cry "Debunked" when addressing a Wuhan lab origin.





jimbo13 said:


> Injectable microchips are a reality though I do not believe the Covid vax contains one and neither does anyone other than a few handful of fringe individuals.
> 
> Microchip claims are used to ridicule people who are rightfully concerned about civil liberties and privacy when it comes to contact tracing and digital passports.
> 
> Not every meme, joke and hyperbolic statement was meant to be taken literally as an opportunity for a "Fact checker" to push a narrative.



As opposed to voicing genuine concerns with facts behind them regarding... anything. It's really sad, honestly. Before coming to this thread, I figured that a lot of right wing folk were just ignorant to the facts, but talking with Jim and Bit fixed that misconception. They've both drowned in so much misinformation and propaganda that they've become blind, poison spewing parodies of themselves, and I'm beginning to think they represent a decent sampling of their peers. Thank the gods they're the clear minority!


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> As opposed to voicing genuine concerns with facts behind them regarding... anything. It's really sad, honestly. Before coming to this thread, I figured that a lot of right wing folk were just ignorant to the facts, but talking with Jim and Bit fixed that misconception. They've both drowned in so much misinformation and propaganda that they've become blind, poison spewing parodies of themselves, and I'm beginning to think they represent a decent sampling of their peers. Thank the gods they're the clear minority!


I had a conversation with a friend's mother the other day, and like a lot of people who are hesitant to get the vaccine, it comes from a place of fear and ignorance, and both of these things are completely understandable. She talked about how she heard it changes your DNA, it contains harmful chemicals, etc., but she admitted she didn't know a lot about it.

The story ends with her getting her first dose that same day, but she also had a brother who died from COVID-19 last winter. Our conversation was the tipping point, but it wasn't the whole reason she got vaccinated.


----------



## leon315 (Jul 24, 2021)

I booked my 1st shot of Pfizer vaccine next week 
AND EU has just PASSED The Green pass bill which you get this Green pass after u got 1st COVID vaccine shot, basically without this PASS, you are not allowed to get in any public buildings(gym, restaurants, mall.......), public transportation (train, bus, plane......).

I'm glad that Italy has finally made up this decision and joined among other EU members.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 24, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And what if I don't want to wear face daipers? Who's gonna make me?


Probably the places that require a mask, which will increase again as cases rise again. 

Can't believe people are this contrarian. I question if they even care about themselves, let alone anyone else.



Lacius said:


> Borg nanoprobes and Borg assimilation when?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 24, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> What exactly am I supposed to be trying again? Pointing out your obvious and severe anger issues? I don't need to try ANYthing again. I already DID, there was no TRY. You also did most all of the work for me. Thanks! Makes my life a little easier when someone makes a complete fool of themself all on their own. Have a wonderful day!!!


Pfft, oh yeah, I have the anger issues, meanwhile I've seen you being aggressive and sperging out in other posts. All comments you posted so far have been pretty much projection of yourself, and you try to say it's me. No it ain't bro. Get a life and a stress ball.



SG854 said:


> He seems more concerned about not being told what to do then the well being of other people. He wants to prove that he don't take orders from anyone more then caring about what's morally right. It's a self centered perspective that teenagers have that he should've grown out of that phase years ago. Like a rebellious teenager but a stupid one.
> 
> Proving that is more important to him then doing the smarter thing. Which is self damaging, damaging to others and stupid but at least he can selfishly say I don't take orders from anyone regardless if my choices are stupid and I look dumb.
> 
> ...


Well, in the scheme of things, I put the well being of myself and those of my friends and family first more than complete strangers, that's just natural. Not saying I wouldn't care if people were getting massacred by a psychopath or died from a collapsing building, but if a given situation where it's me or them, it's gonna be me, unless if friends of family are there, then it's them first, then me, then strangers. Forgive my selfish self preservation, but that's just how it is. If you put other strangers before you, good for you. And another thing, we don't have to sacrifice our god given rights to the government over some dumb virus just so people's feelings don't get hurt. I could care less, which is to say none at all, about the feelings of anyone really. I don't want others to physically get hurt, but fuck people's fee-fee's.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 24, 2021)

I have still yet to see anyone against vaccines post a single reliable source to back up their paranoia. The only thing they’ve convinced me to do is add more to my ignore list, I don’t need that kind of dangerous stupidity in my life.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 24, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I have still yet to see anyone against vaccines post a single reliable source to back up their paranoia. The only thing they’ve convinced me to do is add more to my ignore list, I don’t need that kind of dangerous stupidity in my life.


And I am sure they are equally glad you're ignoring them as well.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 24, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And I am sure they are equally glad you're ignoring them as well.


Shame if they are, they are missing out on some occasional quality posts of mine, outside of calling out their dangerous ignorance. On that note


jimbo13 said:


> I've said little of anything criticizing the vaccine in of itself, my comments generally center on the hypocrisy I see in policy and behavior.
> 
> I don't put man made substances in my body period. I don't drink liquor, smoke and with rare exceptions I grow and harvest my own food. Everything that enters my body I can trace to the earth. I have never had a vaccination in my life and I wont be starting now


You most likely put a lot more “manmade” products into your body than you are willing to accept. Chances are high that each plant you are growing is made with a GMO seed, either from plants that were specifically bred to make better fruits, be more pest resistant, and so on. Most fruits and vegetables we eat are products of centuries of human intervention to make something better for humans to eat. There’s the added fact that unless you are buying all of your meat directly from farmers, you are most likely consuming manmade food coloring. I also have my doubts that you’ve never been vaccinated as chances are high that you did get vaccinated as a child. Most schools require some vaccinations. This also coupled with the likelihood that you are older than social media mass hysteria around vaccines. This isn’t to say it’s impossible but extremely unlikely that you haven’t received a single vaccination.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 24, 2021)

Lacius said:


> People in the anti-vax crowd were/are seriously pushing conspiracy nonsense about microchips in the vaccine, keys sticking to them because they're now magnetized, etc.



Bullshit.  Just because there is a small fringe that believes this or memes it as a joke does not make it a wide spread belief.

It's more akin to someone photo bombing a protest with a unwelcome flag to make people look bad.  "Magnetic" people has been a thing long before Covid.  You commonly see this in Asia and South America and have for decades.


----------



## WeedZ (Jul 24, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Bullshit.  Just because there is a small fringe that believes this or memes it as a joke does not make it a wide spread belief.
> 
> It's more akin to someone photo bombing a protest with a unwelcome flag to make people look bad.  "Magnetic" people has been a thing long before Covid.  You commonly see this in Asia and South America and have for decades.



But keys aren't even magnetic. Maybe they're just sticky and need a shower.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 24, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Shame if they are, they are missing out on some occasional quality posts of mine, outside of calling out their dangerous ignorance. On that note
> 
> You most likely put a lot more “manmade” products into your body than you are willing to accept. Chances are high that each plant you are growing is made with a GMO seed, either from plants that were specifically bred to make better fruits, be more pest resistant, and so on. Most fruits and vegetables we eat are products of centuries of human intervention to make something better for humans to eat. There’s the added fact that unless you are buying all of your meat directly from farmers, you are most likely consuming manmade food coloring. I also have my doubts that you’ve never been vaccinated as chances are high that you did get vaccinated as a child. Most schools require some vaccinations. This also coupled with the likelihood that you are older than social media mass hysteria around vaccines. This isn’t to say it’s impossible but extremely unlikely that you haven’t received a single vaccination.



I intentionally buy heirloom seeds and know the source, I am a bee keeper, mycologist and hunt exotic culinary products such as truffles seasonally I am in the organic food business. I live in a National forest, the majority of my income is selling boutique products during the tourist season.  The only proteins I ingest are Fish, Chicken, Elk & Bison which I hunt or harvest myself.  I haven't even been inside a commercial grocery for about 3 years.

I am surrounded by medical professionals my Grandfather is a MD, my Grandmother my mother are NPs, my sisters a vet and my brother's a chiropractor and spent 12 years in Beijing studying traditional Chinese medicine and I am sure the only injections I have ever had was a B12 shot and saline when I had a bad weight cut when I was wrestling in college (I just double checked).

Do I get more man made shit in my system that I want? Sure I probably do but anyone would be hard pressed to find it, thanks for your concern.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 24, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And I am sure they are equally glad you're ignoring them as well.


I’ve decided to come back and give a better answer here. I’ve only started ignoring people who have a history of posting malicious and dangerous content. I know that’s subjective, so honestly I won’t debate what constitutes those requirements because no one wins. I don’t just block people I disagree with, as that’s not a good means of learning. I also tend to keep a lot of people I have concerns about unblocked and even followed. There quite a few people in this thread that I have been considering reaching out to because I don’t think they are being very honest with themselves. I think a lot of them are most likely being disingenuous and I am interested in getting to know them. I do believe that a lot of issues are based on fear, ignorance, and getting swept up in social movement.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Bullshit.  Just because there is a small fringe that believes this or memes it as a joke does not make it a wide spread belief.
> 
> It's more akin to someone photo bombing a protest with a unwelcome flag to make people look bad.  "Magnetic" people has been a thing long before Covid.  You commonly see this in Asia and South America and have for decades.



20% of Americans believe the vaccines "definitely or probably" contain microchips. Among Trump supporters, the number is 29%. Among Biden supporters, it's 8%. It is a widespread belief.

I recommend knowing what you're talking about instead of just posting what feels right. You'll look less foolish and make a lot fewer mistakes that way.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



jimbo13 said:


> I intentionally buy heirloom seeds and know the source, I am a bee keeper, mycologist and hunt exotic culinary products such as truffles seasonally I am in the organic food business. I live in a National forest, the majority of my income is selling boutique products during the tourist season.  The only proteins I ingest are Fish, Chicken, Elk & Bison which I hunt or harvest myself.  I haven't even been inside a commercial grocery for about 3 years.
> 
> I am surrounded by medical professionals my Grandfather is a MD, my Grandmother my mother are NPs, my sisters a vet and my brother's a chiropractor and spent 12 years in Beijing studying traditional Chinese medicine and I am sure the only injections I have ever had was a B12 shot and saline when I had a bad weight cut when I was wrestling in college (I just double checked).
> 
> Do I get more man made shit in my system that I want? Sure I probably do but anyone would be hard pressed to find it, thanks for your concern.


It's literally a logical fallacy to say human-made = bad, but natural = good.


----------



## smf (Jul 24, 2021)

Lacius said:


> 20% of Americans believe the vaccines "definitely or probably" contain microchips. Among Trump supporters, the number is 29%. Among Biden supporters, it's 8%. It is a widespread belief.



I'm surprised it's so low, that means there are people who aren't completely gullible but still support Trump.

I guess those are the racists.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Jul 24, 2021)

Vaccines are pointless now chinas perfect *manmade lab created virus *just keeps mutating and gets more and more resistant. delta is already immune to the vaccine even the Pfizer one.


----------



## ut2k4master (Jul 24, 2021)

Bladexdsl said:


> Vaccines are pointless now chinas perfect *manmade lab created virus *just keeps mutating and gets more and more resistant. delta is already immune to the vaccine even the Pfizer one.


again nothing but idiotic conspiracy theories and lies from you.
the vaccines still work, even if less effective


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

Bladexdsl said:


> Vaccines are pointless now chinas perfect *manmade lab created virus *just keeps mutating and gets more and more resistant. delta is already immune to the vaccine even the Pfizer one.


A couple of things:

There is no evidence the virus was human-created. In fact, there is genetic evidence that it was naturally occurring.
The vaccines are still effective against the delta variant, albeit they are less effective against the delta variant vs. other forms of the virus. For Pfizer specifically, the vaccine is approximately 80% effective against the delta variant, vs. 90-95% effective against other forms of the virus.
Before posting easily debunked nonsense, please do some research first. Thank you.


----------



## MMX (Jul 24, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Skydiving is incredibly safe, not everyone wants to jump out of a plane.
> 
> I'm sorry I can't hear your partisan bullshit over the crickets of Cumo killing thousands of peoples grand parents then covering it up.
> 
> Trump did not get on television like Fauci did and lie about masking or spend 6 months shouting the battle cry "Debunked" when addressing a Wuhan lab origin.




jimbo there is no point talking to these people. it doesn't matter what the topic is, name whatever Globalist agenda - they'll do free advertising and promo for it.

my prediction is the governments of the world will shut down everything again and blame unvaccinated for it. the now 70% vaccinated will happily agree to new laws and they'll force vaccinate the rest. they basically let the leash on the population a little go so they can reel it tighter back in and say "this is the enemy". 
eventually every 6-month vaccinations will be mandatory.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

MMX said:


> my prediction is the governments of the world will shut down everything again and blame unvaccinated for it.


People would be right to blame the unvaccinated for this and anything else that happens as a direct consequence of people willfully forgoing the vaccine.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 24, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> I intentionally buy heirloom seeds and know the source, I am a bee keeper, mycologist and hunt exotic culinary products such as truffles seasonally I am in the organic food business. I live in a National forest, the majority of my income is selling boutique products during the tourist season.  The only proteins I ingest are Fish, Chicken, Elk & Bison which I hunt or harvest myself.  I haven't even been inside a commercial grocery for about 3 years.
> 
> I am surrounded by medical professionals my Grandfather is a MD, my Grandmother my mother are NPs, my sisters a vet and my brother's a chiropractor and spent 12 years in Beijing studying traditional Chinese medicine and I am sure the only injections I have ever had was a B12 shot and saline when I had a bad weight cut when I was wrestling in college (I just double checked).
> 
> Do I get more man made shit in my system that I want? Sure I probably do but anyone would be hard pressed to find it, thanks for your concern.


Lilith isn't wrong your are putting in your body lots of man made fruits and vegetables that was domesticated for thousands of years to produce desirable edible results.

Lots of animals were domesticated by humans to grow up faster and produce more meat.


You are eating organic food that was selectively breed/man made by centuries of humans and by you.


Covid Vaccine is created from man made ingredients that was obtained from things that came from nature.


----------



## MMX (Jul 24, 2021)

Lacius said:


> People would be right to blame the unvaccinated for this and anything else that happens as a direct consequence of people willfully forgoing the vaccine.



I disagree and I'll decide for my own body.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 24, 2021)

MMX said:


> I disagree and I'll decide for my own body.


Nobody is saying it isn't your choice whether or not to get vaccinated, but don't pretend the continued spread of the virus in the United States, and the likelihood emerging variants, are anybody's fault other than the unvaccinated.

It's a demonstrable fact, not an opinion.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 25, 2021)

Covid Vaccine vewy scary

You are a bunch of wimps


----------



## 8BitWonder (Jul 25, 2021)

MMX said:


> I disagree and I'll decide for my own body.


How do you think the virus spread throughout 2020?


Spoiler: Hint:



It spread through those that were susceptible and that could transmit it to others.
E.g. Everyone



Now vaccines are available and folks are immunizing themselves to prevent the spread and their own infection, while several others are keeping themselves susceptible despite the availability of a vaccine.

Saying the unvaccinated aren't largely the cause of the virus' continued spread is like saying it wasn't the fault of anyone in 2020.
People weren't immune to it in 2020, so it spread through them.
Now people are choosing not to be immune to it, and it is continuing to spreading through them in 2021.


----------



## MMX (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Nobody is saying it isn't your choice whether or not to get vaccinated, but don't pretend the continued spread of the virus in the United States, and the likelihood emerging variants, are anybody's fault other than the unvaccinated.
> 
> It's a demonstrable fact, not an opinion.


didn't they say most people in the hospital are now unvaccinated and dying? then the problem will sort itself out.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



8BitWonder said:


> How do you think the virus spread throughout 2020?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Hint:
> ...



fact check: you're not immune after the vaccinations. it's even unclear if vaccinated people stop transmission of the virus.

the most grave error is vaccinated people that break all rules of social distancing, wearing masks, restricting travel, restricting social contacts.. from what I see in my daily life they are the most irresponsible. Obviously I can't speak for everyone. but the rules are here to stay permanently.


----------



## smf (Jul 25, 2021)

MMX said:


> didn't they say most people in the hospital are now unvaccinated and dying? then the problem will sort itself out.



But some of them are bound to survive.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

MMX said:


> didn't they say most people in the hospital are now unvaccinated and dying? then the problem will sort itself out.


While this is true (99.5% of COVID-19 deaths in the USA are unvaccinated), this isn't the problem "sorting itself out." With the disease continuing to spread unchecked because of the unvaccinated, breakthrough infections among the vaccinated are more common. In addition, with the disease continuing the spread among the unvaccinated, that increases the odds that it will mutate and/or hybridize with other coronaviruses and become more infectious and/or deadly. New variants are likely to make the currently available vaccines less effective.

This is the problem, not the problem sorting itself out.



MMX said:


> fact check: you're not immune after the vaccinations. it's even unclear if vaccinated people stop transmission of the virus.


The vaccines have been demonstrated to offer resistance to contracting and spreading the disease. And if a vaccinated person suffers a breakthrough infection (which is rare but more likely if the disease is spreading unchecked due to the large number of people choosing not to be vaccinated), vaccinated people are still less likely to spread the disease due to their lower viral loads.



MMX said:


> the most grave error is vaccinated people that break all rules of social distancing, wearing masks, restricting travel, restricting social contacts.. from what I see in my daily life they are the most irresponsible. Obviously I can't speak for everyone. but the rules are here to stay permanently.


Vaccinated people generally shouldn't have to social distance, wear masks, etc., both in public and especially when only around other vaccinated people. The reason that's starting to change is because so many people are unvaccinated. In other words, vaccinated people aren't breaking the rules when those rules don't apply to them.


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> 20% of Americans believe the vaccines "definitely or probably" contain microchips. Among Trump supporters, the number is 29%. Among Biden supporters, it's 8%. It is a widespread belief.



I don't think the vaccines contain microchips.

If I am given a survey asking me if I think vaccines contain microchips, I am 100% answering yes.

I would also say I believe in Jewish Space Lasers, Reptilian overlords, and that vaccines cause autism.

Seriously, the only reason to take a survey is to completely invalidate the data being collected. Why would anybody honestly answer a survey when they have no reason to answer truthfully? 

If somebody wants me to take their survey, I'm going to have fun with it.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> I don't think the vaccines contain microchips.
> 
> If I am given a survey asking me if I think vaccines contain microchips, I am 100% answering yes.
> 
> ...


There's no evidence that's what happened, and your post says a lot more about you than it does about the survey results.


----------



## WiiCurious (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There's no evidence that's what happened, and your post says a lot more about you than it does about the survey results.




I know exactly what it says about me and I'm totally okay with it. I have no responsibility to make data collection easy.

How do you control for people lying on surveys? The burden of proof is on the people reporting the data. 
I say that the data is invalid and all respondents lied. There's literally no way to refute my claim.
What is this 'evidence' that nobody lied on the survey?

Or is this another example of the fact that you lack the ability to think scientifically?


----------



## MMX (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Vaccinated people generally shouldn't have to social distance, wear masks, etc., both in public and especially when only around other vaccinated people. The reason that's starting to change is because so many people are unvaccinated. In other words, vaccinated people aren't breaking the rules when those rules don't apply to them.




my my my, have you seen the number of Flu deaths going down last year? Obviously to save the lives of others we should wear Masks most of the time. btw, will you get the flu shot this year? it is irresponsible not to!

Travel restrictions - not just good to contain infectious diseases are also a very plus on the carbon footprint.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> I know exactly what it says about me and I'm totally okay with it. I have no responsibility to make data collection easy.


If you care about whether or not publicly available data is correct, like data you yourself use, then you do have a responsibility to make data collection easy or not participate in the process.



WiiCurious said:


> How do you control for people lying on surveys? The burden of proof is on the people reporting the data.


The only burden that exists is reporting the results of the survey and reporting on the methodology of the survey. That's all it takes to fulfill the burden of proof on the one claiming survey results.



WiiCurious said:


> I say that the data is invalid and all respondents lied. There's literally no way to refute my claim.


This statement has a burden of proof it hasn't met.



WiiCurious said:


> Or is this another example of the fact that you lack the ability to think scientifically?


Could you provide a single example where I have said something "unscientific"? Please be very specific.

As for the topic of the survey results, please remember that there's no reason to think any significant portion of the respondents provided false information.

Also keep in mind that no evidence has been provided that suggests one type of answer would be significantly misreported more than another. For example, you could claim some of the apparent microchip believers might have been lying, but some of the apparent microchip deniers might have also been lying. Some of the microchip believers might have lied to be funny. Some of the microchip deniers might have lied out of embarrassment. In addition to demonstrating that a significant number if respondents lied, you would also have to demonstrate that the liars are disproportionately on one side. In other words, I could agree with you that a significant number of respondents lied (I don't), and since the liars would cancel each other out, we would still be left with the same survey results.

Anecdotally, I live in a red state, and 1/4 or 1/3 of Trumpers believing in the microchip conspiracy theory sounds about right.


----------



## 8BitWonder (Jul 25, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Or is this another example of the fact that you lack the ability to think scientifically?


You're arguing all survey data is invalid because you'd be a wank while taking one.
I don't think you get to decide who isn't thinking scientifically.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

MMX said:


> my my my, have you seen the number of Flu deaths going down last year? Obviously to save the lives of others we should wear Masks most of the time.


There is an argument to be made that perpetual mask-wearing isn't a bad idea. I don't disagree with you. However, I see no reason for it to be compulsory outside a severe pandemic like the one we are seeing.

I think anyone who is sick should definitely wear a mask in public.



MMX said:


> btw, will you get the flu shot this year? it is irresponsible not to!


I've always gotten the flu shot. This year won't be any different. Everyone who can medically get the flu shot should get one yearly.



MMX said:


> Travel restrictions - not just good to contain infectious diseases are also a very plus on the carbon footprint.


I'd agree that the reduced carbon footprint is a silver lining of the travel restrictions, particularly the restrictions that occurred early in the pandemic when people were sheltering in place.


----------



## MMX (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I think anyone who is sick should definitely wear a mask in public.
> 
> I've always gotten the flu shot. This year won't be any different. Everyone who can medically get the flu shot should get one yearly.



I was kinda baiting u with that flu shot line, that was f***in funny man lol. Maybe Bill Gates is using his Nanochip Windows to make you write all these replies to always have the last word on something. I too got the vaccine but they did a mistake and got me a full vial - now I turned into magneto. obviously just joking

Agree with you on the sick part and mask unless obviously someone is too sick/bedridden


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

MMX said:


> I was kinda baiting u with that flu shot line, that was f***in funny man lol. Maybe Bill Gates is using his Nanochip Windows to make you write all these replies to always have the last word on something. I too got the vaccine but they did a mistake and got me a full vial - now I turned into magneto. obviously just joking
> 
> Agree with you on the sick part and mask unless obviously someone is too sick/bedridden


I can't get any of the Microsoft nanochips since I don't have a TPM.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> 20% of Americans believe the vaccines "definitely or probably" contain microchips. Among Trump supporters, the number is 29%. Among Biden supporters, it's 8%. It is a widespread belief.
> 
> I recommend knowing what you're talking about instead of just posting what feels right. You'll look less foolish and make a lot fewer mistakes that way.
> 
> ...



114% of polls are bullshit, 300% of un-sourced polls are bullshit, 101% of people with a sense of humor fuck with pollsters.

And 0% of Jimbo's ever said his choices were superior to anyone elses.  Saying percent and debunked like a tourette's tick doesn't make it true.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> 114% of polls are bullshit, 300% of un-sourced polls are bullshit, 101% of people with a sense of humor fuck with pollsters.


The results of the survey can be found here (it's a PDF):
https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/w2zmwpzsq0/econTabReport.pdf

I'm sorry if the data is inconvenient for you, but that doesn't mean you can reasonably make up your own facts. It's this kind of thinking that led crybaby Trump supporters to whine about imaginary election fraud.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The results of the survey can be found here (it's a PDF):
> https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/w2zmwpzsq0/econTabReport.pdf
> 
> I'm sorry if the data is inconvenient for you, but that doesn't mean you can reasonably make up your own facts. It's this kind of thinking that led crybaby Trump supporters to whine about imaginary election fraud.


Jimbo can't be convinced that he's ever wrong. I am pretty sure he just makes stuff up the second he's called out on something.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The results of the survey can be found here (it's a PDF):
> https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/w2zmwpzsq0/econTabReport.pdf
> 
> I'm sorry if the data is inconvenient for you, but that doesn't mean you can reasonably make up your own facts. It's this kind of thinking that led crybaby Trump supporters to whine about imaginary election fraud.



The only reference I see to Microchips is on Pg.102,

_"The U.S. government is using the COVID-19 vaccine to microchip the population"  _is not the same as "_the vaccine itself contains a microchip"_  it's a vague question that many people would answer in the affirmative as it is leading to monitoring, data, collection and lead to micro-chipping.

The number of people according to Gallup that lie, mock or choose randomly dwarfs the 8-20%,  
https://dandygoat.com/gallup-poll-majority-of-people-lie-to-gallup-pollsters

You can make a poll say anything, you ask people ridiculous questions they will give you ridiculous answers.

Not any different than Mark Dice, Jay Leno or Penn & Teller doing "Man on the street polls".




Lilith Valentine said:


> Jimbo can't be convinced that he's ever wrong, I am pretty sure he just makes stuff up the second he's called out on something.



Neil Tyson has a great lecture on objective truth vs political truth.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> The only reference I see to Microchips is on Pg.102,
> 
> _"The U.S. government is using the COVID-19 vaccine to microchip the population"  _is not the same as "_the vaccine itself contains a microchip"_  it's a vague question that many people would answer in the affirmative as it is leading to monitoring, data, collection and lead to micro-chipping.
> 
> ...



You should check my previous post about how, even if there are liars in the poll, the liars on various sides have the ability to cancel each other out. If we say 2% of respondents lied, for example, you don't know if they were the pro-microchip folks, the anti-microchip folks, or a mix of the two. If you are going to argue a significant number of the pro-microchip folks lied and the anti-microchip folks didn't, you need to demonstrate that.

And this is all in addition to having to demonstrate that a significant number of respondents lied in the first place.

Lying in polls is a real thing, but the only data I am aware of shows that the lies most frequently occur when people are embarrassed by their answers (e.g. the shy Trump supporter in 2016), not because people are just prankin'.

Edit: Also, a couple more things. First, I can't find the Gallup poll you cited. Do you have a link? (you don't, because you cited a satire site). Second, I hope the irony is not lost on you that you're attempting to use a poll to discredit the accuracies if polls. That seems like a paradox.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 25, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You should check my previous post about how, even if there are liars in the poll, the liars on various sides have the ability to cancel each other out. If we say 2% of respondents lied, for example, you don't know if they were the pro-microchip folks, the anti-microchip folks, or a mix of the two. If you are going to argue a significant number of the pro-microchip folks lied and the anti-microchip folks didn't, you need to demonstrate that.
> 
> And this is all in addition to having to demonstrate that a significant number of respondents lied in the first place.
> 
> ...




If I posted a poll right now "Have Aliens probed Lacius's ass" I am confident It would break 30%, doesn't make it true or that anyone thought that it actually happened.

If you don't think 20% of the public would troll a pollster asking them ridiculous questions about Microchips you need friends with a better sense of humor.

That 20% views your stance as "mission accomplished".

Satirical poll intentional.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 25, 2021)

@jimbo13 I am definitely not arguing that the results of the microchip poll at all indicate that microchips actually exist in the vaccine.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 25, 2021)

Sweet poetic justice: Ron DeSantis is being called a 'sellout' and facing backlash by conservatives for promoting vaccination.  Nobody tells Florida Men™ to stop killing themselves.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 25, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> _"The U.S. government is using the COVID-19 vaccine to microchip the population" _is not the same as "_the vaccine itself contains a microchip"_ it's a vague question that many people would answer in the affirmative as it is leading to monitoring, data, collection and lead to micro-chipping.


Okay, so I found where the whole microchip thing came from. It was facebook playing telephone.
The original quote from bill was not about microchips, but rather identification dyes, specifically for people crossing the border in the event they loose their vaccine documents, so when they reach hospitals, they know what vaccines they had.
This somehow got mangled into microchips, not only do you carry one all the time already (your phone, your laptop, your desktop etc. Which all track your location, even connecting to the internet already does that)
But also it's physically impossible, for anyone to have a small enough microchip that's not detectable, have enough features for wireless capablity, AND also have no battery (as a battery would require surgery).
Let's not forget fluids fuck with a network signal greatly. which you know, your body has a lot of, and a thick layers of skin of muscle and other tissues. Two if there was a battery, it would have to be roughly replaced every five years, and that's the biggest battery you can get, which then needs to get replaced by, a fucking surgery.
third in the event of no battery, it simply wouldn't work, the human body doesn't provide enough electricity to even remotely power a microchip for long enough to get usable data if at all.

fourth, this shit is EASILY testable. We have things called wireless sniffers for a reason. The only other option would be rifid. Which means that , it would have to be scanned over that specific spot where the vaccine was received. Which also means, it's extremely easy to test.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Jul 25, 2021)

Reual said:


> Okay, so I found where the whole microchip thing came from. It was facebook playing telephone.
> The original quote from bill was not about microchips, but rather identification dyes, specifically for people crossing the border in the event they loose their vaccine documents, so when they reach hospitals, they know what vaccines they had.
> This somehow got mangled into microchips, not only do you carry one all the time already (your phone, your laptop, your desktop etc. Which all track your location, even connecting to the internet already does that)
> But also it's physically impossible, for anyone to have a small enough microchip that's not detectable, have enough features for wireless capablity, AND also have no battery (as a battery would require surgery).
> ...


as if the elites don't have technology powerful enough to withstand these obstacles (not saying i belive in the microchip thing)


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 25, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> as if the elites don't have technology powerful enough to withstand these obstacles (not saying i belive in the microchip thing)


Consider the cost of R&D, consider the fact that most people already have phones that track their location. There is no reason for the elites to do that, they already have what they want.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 25, 2021)

Reual said:


> Consider the cost of R&D, consider the fact that most people already have phones that track their location. There is no reason for the elites to do that, they already have what they want.



Also, as I've brought up elsewhere, vaccines aren't actually profitable. I think a problem that the right has is they've lost the ability to understand other people.

So, basic question. Which of the following would make oodles more money?
a. Treating symptoms instead of tackling illnesses head on, and waiting until demand is super high and there is no other competition to stop you withholding excess, creating demand, and from draining wallets for all time going forward... or
b. Making a one-time cure for an illness that has strict government guidelines for pricing and distribution

If you answered b, you're playing Capitalism wrong and you must turn in your credit cards to your nearest non-comrade. Now, further down the crazy ladder, we can hit up the microchip option. Which of the following makes more sense to the ultra-wealthy?

a. Spying through already existing means on the vast majority of the general public through common luxuries with no need for any additional cost for equipment (i.e. cell phones, personal computers, and even watches and smart televisions) or
b. Injecting ultra high tech and thus likely ludicrously priced transceivers into everybody via the formerly established largely unprofitable vaccines before partying at freddy fazbear's child sacrifice basement of pizza and satan

And lastly, I have one more question directed at an individual. Which of the following is most likely true?

a. certain users of this forum have convinced themselves that there are tiers of society where they reign supreme and lesser tiers are literally lesser lifeforms that should be killed or at least imprisoned and threatened in order to maintain what status quo they feel comfortable with, and they create an echo chamber with which to insulate themselves from the terrible notion that they might actually have been ignorant and cruel and they might be equal to everyone else on some level, or
b. certain users of this forum have mastered 4d chess and as long as they keep talking, future historians will note their genuis in the endless annals of victory their media sources swear will be owed to them for their zealotry regardless of how their sources are lacking in credibility and diversity and their arguments are riddled with logical inconsistencies and infantile insults

At this point, it seems apparent that the "opposition" is only here to squawk loudly and parade their rebellious individuality as an admirable quality... even while sounding exactly the same as their peers.


----------



## subcon959 (Jul 25, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> So, basic question. Which of the following would make oodles more money?
> a. Treating symptoms instead of tackling illnesses head on, and waiting until demand is super high and there is no other competition to stop you withholding excess, creating demand, and from draining wallets for all time going forward... or
> b. Making a one-time cure for an illness that has strict government guidelines for pricing and distribution


The plan is to go with option (a) after all this vaccine stuff is done, and for specifically the reason you mentioned. Pharmaceutical companies are developing extremely expensive new treatments because it's way more profitable than eradicating the virus with already existing out-of-patent molecules. I still recommend people watch the JRE podcast with Brett Weinstein (evolutionary biologist) and Pierre Kory (intensive care doctor) where they discuss how effective Ivermectin has been.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 25, 2021)

I don't know why people think the government needs to inject them with a microchip secretly to know their every move. It's the government - they already know, if they have the interest. It's as if the Snowden leak never happened, and that was almost a decade ago - take a wild guess on whether the surveillance technology has improved or stayed the same since then. More importantly though, you're just not that interesting.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 25, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> The plan is to go with option (a) after all this vaccine stuff is done, and for specifically the reason you mentioned. Pharmaceutical companies are developing extremely expensive new treatments because it's way more profitable than eradicating the virus with already existing out-of-patent molecules. I still recommend people watch the JRE podcast with Brett Weinstein (evolutionary biologist) and Pierre Kory (intensive care doctor) where they discuss how effective Ivermectin has been.



Didn't they try using that in Peru for a while, only to find that any benefits were impossible to gauge and that it failed to reduce infection rate and mortality/serious conditions? Pretty sure the WHO also doesn't have a very high opinion of it, and that Pierre Kory seems to pussy-foot around subjecting treatment to the common standards for pharmaceutical drugs.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...ersial-ivermectin-paper-pre-publication-68505

Don't believe everything you hear from Tim Pool and Joe Rogan. A de-wormer for horses is pretty close to hydroxychloroquine on the list of miracle cures that don't work, albeit it is at least mostly less dangerous. The whole point of my question was to show that folks should be skeptical of motivations, and this is a prime example. A bitter and disgraced professor (Brett calls himself an exile, for gods sake) and a physician who proclaims his findings are "miraculous" after being dragged in front of the Sentate by Ron Johnson both deserve a bit of the old stink-eye and scrutiny.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 25, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> The plan is to go with option (a) after all this vaccine stuff is done, and for specifically the reason you mentioned. Pharmaceutical companies are developing extremely expensive new treatments because it's way more profitable than eradicating the virus with already existing out-of-patent molecules. I still recommend people watch the JRE podcast with Brett Weinstein (evolutionary biologist) and Pierre Kory (intensive care doctor) where they discuss how effective Ivermectin has been.



Be prepared for hysterical moronic comments attacking JRE, In before someone starts shrieking "Joes not a doctor" ignoring the fact he is not the source.  The source being the two well researched academics, one being a doctor.

The Jecovid Witness's will defer to their Lord and Savior, admitted liar Saint Fauci.  If Saint Fauci said shove a pineapple up your ass for vitamin C they would stand for the rest of their lives.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 25, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> The Jecovid Witness's will defer to their Lord and Savior, *admitted liar Saint Fauci.*


His view only changed to reflect the science. Which, idk if you know, science changes to reflect better understanding of something. So no, Fauci isn't a liar.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 25, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> A de-wormer for horses is pretty close to hydroxychloroquine on the list of miracle cures that don't work, albeit it is at least mostly less dangerous.


Define "miracle cure" and "not working". A recent observational study of ventilated COVID-19 patients indicates that hydroxychloroquine used in conjunction with azithromycin increases the survival rate by nearly 200%. The paper wasn't written by quacks either - it's authored by researchers from Smith Center for Infectious Diseases & Urban Health and Saint Barnabas Medical Center. Of course this is a very specific circumstance - the majority of COVID infections don't develop into such a severe condition, so it's hardly a "cure" for the disease, rather it improves a patient's odds if they're in a state similar to that of the examined cohort (255 patients). I'll quickly point out that this is a pre-print and it's yet to be peer-reviewed, but the data does exist. It shouldn't be blown out of proportion at this stage, but it shouldn't be ignored either. I personally don't take medical advice from the media - I listen to what doctors have to say since they're the ones with the expertise necessary to prescribe appropriate medication, depending on a patient's specific condition. If the patients at St. Barnabas were better off when they were administered HCQ+AZM, I'm not going to question that - I'll wait until the results of the study are reviewed and the final version is published. The process has to play out, then we'll know if there's any truth to this.


Reual said:


> His view only changed to reflect the science. Which, idk if you know, science changes to reflect better understanding of something. So no, Fauci isn't a liar.


Faucci is on record admitting that he personally manipulated herd immunity numbers knowing that they'll be disseminated by the media, and he did so specifically to encourage or discourage certain behaviours. I quote the man himself:


> *When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine*, I was saying *herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent*. Then, *when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it*, I thought, ‘I can *nudge this up a bit*,’ so I went to 80, 85. We need to have some humility here, *we really don’t know what the real number is*. I think the real range is somewhere between 70 to 90 percent. But, I’m not going to say 90 percent.


In other words, the percentage of vaccinated population required was derived from poll numbers and what Dr.Faucci "thought" at any given time - he doesn't actually know the number, which isn't surprising since nobody does. I'd classify that as a lie - it's not based on hard science, it's based on manipulation for the purposes of reaching a desired outcome.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/24/health/herd-immunity-covid-coronavirus.html

Of course this is a "white lie" of sorts - ideally that number should be 100%, but that's extremely discouraging. If you keep the bar low and move the goal post incrementally, you're more likely to get people to come since you've put them in a perpetual state of "we're almost there".

He also absolutely did lie about funding research in Wuhan. The funds weren't explicitly dedicated to gain of function research of coronaviruses, that part is correct, but money is fungible - if you fund a given institution for a specific purpose, the money that institution would've otherwise spent for the project out of their own pocket simply funds something else - in this case the "something else" was gain of function. Probably not something Faucci would've known about without being in Wuhan in person, but a half-truth nonetheless, which is half way to a lie.


----------



## WiiMiiSwitch (Jul 25, 2021)

I'm getting my first shot soon
I think I'll put my fears aside


----------



## subcon959 (Jul 25, 2021)

I'm still reserving judgement on Fauci as I think he was put in a difficult position where there was a clear conflict of interest. But after I saw the WHO spokesperson refuse to even acknowledge Taiwan in an interview I am finding it hard not to believe they are a captured organisation.


----------



## omgcat (Jul 25, 2021)

well republican leaders are shitting their pants and starting to call for conservatives to get vaccinated. it's gonna suck though since it takes 6-8 weeks for full vaccine effect and that is too long to stop the exponential growth given that a single shot is ~30% effective after 4 weeks.

the GOP are backtracking on the vaccine bashing for example

*‘Vaccines are saving lives’: DeSantis stresses importance of shots, criticizes mask mandates as Florida COVID cases spike*

*After waiting, Steve Scalise gets COVID vaccine, calls it 'safe and effective'*


it's going to be a long dark summer in less educated places.

*Alabama doctor describes how sick COVID patients 'beg' for the vaccine but she can only hold their hand and tell them it is too late*


_will republicans pull through and get vaccinated to save lives? or will they eat their own and call their own leaders "deep state operatives"_. tune in 3 months from now to find out!


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 25, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't know why people think the government needs to inject them with a microchip secretly to know their every move. It's the government - they already know, if they have the interest. It's as if the Snowden leak never happened, and that was almost a decade ago - take a wild guess on whether the surveillance technology has improved or stayed the same since then. More importantly though, you're just not that interesting.


It takes a massive ego to think the government gives a shit about someone’s whereabouts. Like, they don’t, you aren’t that special. If they wanted to find you, they could check the countless methods they already have to track people, including your phone.



jimbo13 said:


> Be prepared for hysterical moronic comments attacking JRE, In before someone starts shrieking "Joes not a doctor" ignoring the fact he is not the source.  The source being the two well researched academics, one being a doctor.
> 
> The Jecovid Witness's will defer to their Lord and Savior, admitted liar Saint Fauci.  If Saint Fauci said shove a pineapple up your ass for vitamin C they would stand for the rest of their lives.


What sources are you referring to?


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Jul 26, 2021)

Reual said:


> Consider the cost of R&D, consider the fact that most people already have phones that track their location. There is no reason for the elites to do that, they already have what they want.


I know, I don't believe in the micro chip theory at all. I'm just saying they might be able to do something like that, though I doubt on such a large scale. Who knows


----------



## Xzi (Jul 26, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> It takes a massive ego to think the government gives a shit about someone’s whereabouts. Like, they don’t, you aren’t that special. If they wanted to find you, they could check the countless methods they already have to track people, including your phone.


But...but...they know the TRUTH about the global liberal pedophile ring and the frogs turning gay!  Surely that threatens the status quo enough to warrant 24/7 surveillance by an entire team of agents.  /s


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 26, 2021)

Xzi said:


> But...but...they know the TRUTH about the global liberal pedophile ring and the frogs turning gay!  Surely that threatens the status quo enough to warrant 24/7 surveillance by an entire team of agents.  /s


They could just you know, _end them_, but spending tax payer money for 24/7 surveillance makes more sense


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 26, 2021)

BlazeMasterBM said:


> I know, I don't believe in the micro chip theory at all. I'm just saying they might be able to do something like that, though I doubt on such a large scale. Who knows



To what purpose? If it wasn't large scale, it wouldn't be useful (nobody needs a "sampling size" of random folk), and if it is small scale, it is wildly simpler to use existing technologies or even old fashioned spying.



subcon959 said:


> I'm still reserving judgement on Fauci as I think he was put in a difficult position where there was a clear conflict of interest. But after I saw the WHO spokesperson refuse to even acknowledge Taiwan in an interview I am finding it hard not to believe they are a captured organisation.



You got a source on that, comrade? I'd love to see the context!



jimbo13 said:


> Be prepared for hysterical moronic comments attacking JRE, In before someone starts shrieking "Joes not a doctor" ignoring the fact he is not the source.  The source being the two well researched academics, one being a doctor.
> 
> The Jecovid Witness's will defer to their Lord and Savior, admitted liar Saint Fauci.  If Saint Fauci said shove a pineapple up your ass for vitamin C they would stand for the rest of their lives.



Oh good, he missed my point because he can't hang with civil discourse. Not only is Joe not a doctor, but the other two parties have dubious backgrounds as well. At least he acknowledges one of the guests isn't even a doctor either... good grief, the blinders on this sheepysheep.



Foxi4 said:


> Define "miracle cure" and "not working". A recent observational study of ventilated COVID-19 patients indicates that hydroxychloroquine used in conjunction with azithromycin increases the survival rate by nearly 200%. The paper wasn't written by quacks either - it's authored by researchers from Smith Center for Infectious Diseases & Urban Health and Saint Barnabas Medical Center. Of course this is a very specific circumstance - the majority of COVID infections don't develop into such a severe condition, so it's hardly a "cure" for the disease, rather it improves a patient's odds if they're in a state similar to that of the examined cohort (255 patients). I'll quickly point out that this is a pre-print and it's yet to be peer-reviewed, but the data does exist. It shouldn't be blown out of proportion at this stage, but it shouldn't be ignored either. I personally don't take medical advice from the media - I listen to what doctors have to say since they're the ones with the expertise necessary to prescribe appropriate medication, depending on a patient's specific condition. If the patients at St. Barnabas were better off when they were administered HCQ+AZM, I'm not going to question that - I'll wait until the results of the study are reviewed and the final version is published. The process has to play out, then we'll know if there's any truth to this.
> Faucci is on record admitting that he personally manipulated herd immunity numbers knowing that they'll be disseminated by the media, and he did so specifically to encourage or discourage certain behaviours. I quote the man himself:
> In other words, the percentage of vaccinated population required was derived from poll numbers and what Dr.Faucci "thought" at any given time - he doesn't actually know the number, which isn't surprising since nobody does. I'd classify that as a lie - it's not based on hard science, it's based on manipulation for the purposes of reaching a desired outcome.
> 
> ...



So, lemme get this straight. Out of the things I mentioned, your beef is that hydroxychloroquine has possibly gotten a covid related use, even though it is as a treatment for symptoms and not a cure like I was saying... But otherwise the things I brought up in response to your points were valid? And for Reual's point on Faucci, you claim his educated opinion (he never stated that it was scientific fact that herd immunity had a solid bar that must be reached) fluctuating to match the circumstances in the country as they unfolded is proof of a lie (that never even cleared the threshold he himself held to) and that his "half truth" regarding the purpose of funding in a foreign country is further proof of him lying...

Are you a serious person? Does this not seem like nitpicking to you? Mod or not, this kind of discourse absolutely loses any respect I otherwise gained for your bringing new elements to the discussion.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Jul 26, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> To what purpose? If it wasn't large scale, it wouldn't be useful (nobody needs a "sampling size" of random folk), and if it is small scale, it is wildly simpler to use existing technologies or even old fashioned spying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


idk


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 26, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> So, lemme get this straight. Out of the things I mentioned, your beef is that hydroxychloroquine has possibly gotten a covid related use, even though it is as a treatment for symptoms and not a cure like I was saying... But otherwise the things I brought up in response to your points were valid? And for Reual's point on Faucci, you claim his educated opinion (he never stated that it was scientific fact that herd immunity had a solid bar that must be reached) fluctuating to match the circumstances in the country as they unfolded is proof of a lie (that never even cleared the threshold he himself held to) and that his "half truth" regarding the purpose of funding in a foreign country is further proof of him lying...
> 
> Are you a serious person? Does this not seem like nitpicking to you? Mod or not, this kind of discourse absolutely loses any respect I otherwise gained for your bringing new elements to the discussion.


I don't care about anyone's respect, particularly not on the Internet. I quote specific sections of specific posts that I take issue with, I don't need to respond to anything that I have no opinion on or what doesn't interest me.

You said quite clearly that hydroxychloroquine "doesn't work" when used in COVID treatment - clearly it does, in specific cases - that's what the latest research says. Reual stated that Faucci is "not a liar" - he is, and he says as much himself publicly, even if he won't admit he was lying to save face. If he pulls one number out of a magician's top hat, all of his other numbers are automatically put into question - if he said one thing based on polls and personal feeling rather than hard science, it makes perfect sense to treat what he says with a degree of skepticism. This is what we call "getting a second opinion", rather than buying what he says wholesale.

"You're nitpicking" is not an argument, both of you alleged certain things about HCQ and Faucci respectively, and I put those things into question based on the available data. Faucci is a grown man - he doesn't need an army of Internet knights to protect his honour every single time he lies before Congress or to the public. HCQ is a drug - either it increases treatment effectiveness or it doesn't, and the answer to that question is found via scientific research, not bumbling idiots on TV.

I've noticed a certain trend, and the trend is this: "if Trump said it at any point in time then it must be wrong". If that's the line of thinking both of you are applying on your decision-making, all the power to you, but don't simultaneously claim that what you say is based on "the science" - it's based on personal feeling, more specifically an inherent dislike of your opposition. If your claims are not based on data, you're liable to make errors that could've otherwise been avoided. If you treat that kind of commentary personally, I must underline that I'm not liable for any hurt fee-fees.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 26, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't care about anyone's respect, particularly not on the Internet. I quote specific sections of specific posts that I take issue with, I don't need to respond to anything that I have no opinion on or what doesn't interest me.
> 
> You said quite clearly that hydroxychloroquine "doesn't work" when used in COVID treatment - clearly it does, in specific cases - that's what the latest research says. Reual stated that Faucci is "not a liar" - he is, and he says as much himself publicly, even if he won't admit he was lying to save face. If he pulls one number out of a magician's top hat, all of his other numbers are automatically put into question - if he said one thing based on polls and personal feeling rather than hard science, it makes perfect sense to treat what he says with a degree of skepticism. This is what we call "getting a second opinion", rather than buying what he says wholesale.
> 
> ...



I think you may have ever so slightly missed the point. Orange man bad is a fun meme (and largely accurate!) but it has nothing to do with this particular thread/discussion. I said hydroxychloroquine is not a miracle cure, hence "miracle cure that doesn't work". Your link sites a non-peer reviewed paper with a small sampling size using a drug that can have fairly serious side effects. It doesn't show that "clearly it does, in specific cases" at all, and the author is under intense scrutiny for attempting to use his report as proof of his claims given flawed data sets and unwillingness to use traditional testing norms to prove his suspicions. Meanwhile, other reports regarding hydroxychloroquine have shown it to not be of significant benefit in covid symptom treatment. In other words... you're wrong and your source is bad, and considering you mentioned Trump in a place where he hasn't been given his due thrashing for mishandling the pandemic and failing to save the lives of a half-million of the people he swore to serve, I presume you to be a partisan apologist.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...le_alert-jama&utm_content=olf&utm_term=110920

Accusing you of nitpicking is a perfectly valid argument, because rather than tackle many of the statements I made head-on, you presume a knowledge of these specific barely related findings that is lacking at best and deceptive at worst. Then, when reviewing Reual's statement, you accuse an actual specialist of being a political agent and a liar using, again, barely relevant talking points that don't even make much sense. All this absolutely reeks of partisan bias, and that is why I'm now certain you don't deserve any more respect for your input in this discussion. This doesn't even qualify as half-truths so much as obfuscating lies.

Perhaps you should try and get your science facts from sources other than Steven Crowder in the future?


----------



## subcon959 (Jul 26, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> You got a source on that, comrade? I'd love to see the context!


The context was Taiwan's universally praised response to coronavirus, yet the WHO official defaulted to China's stance which was to not even acknowledge the country. This caused a pretty big uproar across the board last year so I'm surprised more people aren't aware of it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52088167.amp


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 26, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I think you may have ever so slightly missed the point. Orange man bad is a fun meme (and largely accurate!) but it has nothing to do with this particular thread/discussion.


Hole in one. I'm good at both golf and battleship, it seems.


> I said hydroxychloroquine is not a miracle cure, hence "miracle cure that doesn't work". Your link sites a non-peer reviewed paper with a small sampling size using a drug that can have fairly serious side effects. It doesn't show that "clearly it does, in specific cases" at all, and the author is under intense scrutiny for attempting to use his report as proof of his claims given flawed data sets and unwillingness to use traditional testing norms to prove his suspicions. Meanwhile, other reports regarding hydroxychloroquine have shown it to not be of significant benefit in covid symptom treatment. In other words... you're wrong and your source is bad, and considering you mentioned Trump in a place where he hasn't been given his due thrashing for mishandling the pandemic and failing to save the lives of a half-million of the people he swore to serve, I presume you to be a partisan apologist.
> 
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...le_alert-jama&utm_content=olf&utm_term=110920


Compare like to like. We are not testing HCQ in isolation - HCQ is supposed to improve absorption rate of other drugs it's used with. So far it's been tested with AZM and zinc, with positive or sometimes mixed results. I'm well-aware that the study is still going through peer review, and said as much. In fact, I said that it shouldn't be taken as gospel - I said that data exists to support HCQ efficacy *when used appropriately* and *in patient cohorts that require it*, however it needs to go through the usual review before it's considered valid. There are multiple studies that cite similar findings - I know of at least two other clinical trials. Miracle drug? No. Potential treatment? Yes, and it's actively used as such, at least in certain trials.


> Accusing you of nitpicking is a perfectly valid argument,


It's not.


> because rather than tackle many of the statements I made head-on, you presume a knowledge of these specific barely related findings that is lacking at best and deceptive at worst.


That's what you presume, not me. I'm pointing out a potential error and substantiating it with evidence. Whether it is an error or not remains to be seen based on peer review - the matter is being actively researched around the globe.


> Then, when reviewing Reual's statement, you accuse an actual specialist of being a political agent and a liar using, again, barely relevant talking points that don't even make much sense. All this absolutely reeks of partisan bias, and that is why I'm now certain you don't deserve any more respect for your input in this discussion. This doesn't even qualify as half-truths so much as obfuscating lies.


Faucci is a government spokesperson - he's literally hired by the administration. He is a specialist, yes, but in his current position I expect him to be truthful and transparent. So far he only seems to be transparent when his feet are put to the fire, and if that's the case, he should be wearing shoes that are constantly engulfed in flames. Again, I don't care about your respect, or the approval of Internet strangers - that's not a currency I'm interested in. I'd rather err on the side of being right. If something is uncertain, it should be pointed out as uncertain.


> Perhaps you should try and get your science facts from sources other than Steven Crowder in the future?


Swing and a miss. What's more scientifically accurate, The Daily Show or Saturday Night Live?


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 26, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> The context was Taiwan's universally praised response to coronavirus, yet the WHO official defaulted to China's stance which was to not even acknowledge the country. This caused a pretty big uproar across the board last year so I'm surprised more people aren't aware of it.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52088167.amp



Ooh, neat! Many thanks! Will make for good reading before work!



Foxi4 said:


> Hole in one. I'm good at both golf and battleship, it seems.
> Compare like to like. We are not testing HCQ in isolation - HCQ is supposed to improve absorption rate of other drugs it's used with. So far it's been tested with AZM and zinc, with positive or sometimes mixed results. I'm well-aware that the study is still going through peer review, and said as much. In fact, I said that it shouldn't be taken as gospel - I said that data exists to support HCQ efficacy *when used appropriately* and *in patient cohorts that require it*, however it needs to go through the usual review before it's considered valid. There are multiple studies that cite similar findings - I know of at least two other clinical trials. Miracle drug? No. Potential treatment? Yes, and it's actively used as such, at least in certain trials.
> It's not.
> That's what you presume, not me. I'm pointing out a potential error and substantiating it with evidence. Whether it is an error or not remains to be seen based on peer review - the matter is being actively researched around the globe.
> ...



Sweet yob, just hearing that you've confirmed opposition and you're already singing your own praises.

The point is that all you're doing is giving yourself a little corner case of information you feel comfortable with, and entrenching yourself with it while ignoring everything else... And you're even doing that poorly, since again, your study is extremely preliminary and open to scathing criticism from other researchers, not to mention that it flies in the face of other blind studies, much like the first garbage drug you propped up. The only reason Hydroxy even got the attention that it did was... Donald Trump! Hey hey, full circle! Maybe that's relevant! While better than bleach, his statement resulted in harm and death.

Faucci isn't a government mouthpiece, he's the country's leading virulent disease expert with a half century of experience and accolades to his name, and a role of advisor to administrations of both parties. I'm sorry if you can't understand why his statements are sometimes opinions and not holy writ exposing hypocrisy in the big pharma puppet show, but your examples of "lies" are just comical. He has been uncertain about things, but his direction hasn't been contradictory or disingenuous, while I can't say the same for your tactics in this thread. I'd much rather you concern yourself with being decent to people you disagree with over being right at all costs, because this has just been sad as well as inaccurate.

Also, for whatever its worth, the Daily Show is obviously the answer because it is a show focused on presenting news and making fun of it, instead of finding comedy to be drawn out of real events whenever they feel certain a chuckle can be gained from it. Sure, it is often biased as all heck these days, but there is at least a level of journalism going on in the background, even if you don't care for the obvious political leanings its tragically smothered in.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 26, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Sweet yob, just hearing that you've confirmed opposition and you're already singing your own praises.


I'm an excellent singer. I simply don't like blanket statements.


> The point is that all you're doing is giving yourself a little corner case of information you feel comfortable with, and entrenching yourself with it while ignoring everything else... And you're even doing that poorly, since again, your study is extremely preliminary and open to scathing criticism from other researchers, not to mention that it flies in the face of other blind studies, much like the first garbage drug you propped up.


Of course it's preliminary - it was published 2 months ago. I only said it twice now - third time lucky.


> The only reason Hydroxy even got the attention that it did was... Donald Trump! Hey hey, full circle! Maybe that's relevant! While better than bleach, his statement resulted in harm and death.


You have no evidence of that. The last time the media propped up a story about someone munching on aquarium cleaner it turned out to be a homicide. As it stands, the latest FDA guidance only permits use of HCQ and CQ in hospital settings where clinical trials are available, so test cohorts are going to be small due to the revoked EUA. Point being, you don't know what it does, neither do I, and claiming otherwise silly.


> Faucci isn't a government mouthpiece, he's the country's leading virulent disease expert with a half century of experience and accolades to his name, and a role of advisor to administrations of both parties. I'm sorry if you can't understand why his statements are sometimes opinions and not holy writ exposing hypocrisy in the big pharma puppet show, but your examples of "lies" are just comical. He has been uncertain about things, but his direction hasn't been contradictory or disingenuous, while I can't say the same for your tactics in this thread. I'd much rather you concern yourself with being decent to people you disagree with over being right at all costs, because this has just been sad as well as inaccurate.


Dr.Fauci is a duly appointed Chief Medical Advisor and the COVID team lead, he is de facto a government mouthpiece in all matters regarding COVID. He also did not mince words in his response to the NYT - he revised the proposed figure based on a change in polls, not new emerging evidence. If you want to argue the finer details of his statement, you'll have to argue with him, not me. Me calling him a liar is my opinion, it is subjective and based upon the fact that he demonstrably mislead the population in regards to the minimum required vaccination levels to reach herd immunity, among other things. You are welcome to disagree with that assessment, but nothing you've said so far invalidates it. I'm sorry that his mask slipped in a moment of weakness, but you are not required to mount a defense for him - he can do that himself when asked.


> Also, for whatever its worth, the Daily Show is obviously the answer because it is a show focused on presenting news and making fun of it, instead of finding comedy to be drawn out of real events whenever they feel certain a chuckle can be gained from it. Sure, it is often biased as all heck these days, but there is at least a level of journalism going on in the background, even if you don't care for the obvious political leanings its tragically smothered in.


Both SNL and TDS are comedy entertainment. In the case of SNL it's pure comedy, in the case of TDS it's satirical news. I specifically brought up the comparison because you mentioned Crowder, who fits in the same bracket. You shouldn't draw your information from any of these shows - the only thing you can get out of SNL is cancer, the only thing you can get out of Crowder is cringe, the only thing you can get out of TDS is mild amusement from watching Trevor Noah cry on national television. I wouldn't treat any of these shows as a reliable source, you're the one who threw the first punch in regards to this kind of nonsense.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 27, 2021)

*"The U.S. government has issued a ‘vaccine mandate’ for over 100,000 workers that are employed by the Department of Veterans Affairs. The mandate was reported by the New York Times. The vaccine mandate will apply to workers who are “the most patient-facing,” McDonough said, including ‘doctors, dentists, registered nurses, physician assistants and some specialists.’"

https://trendingpolitics.com/breaki...andate-that-impacts-over-100000-workers-knab/
*
And no one asks why so many trained medical professionals, many formerly military who are accustomed to a heavy vax schedule are declining in numbers to the degree it would require a mandate?


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 27, 2021)

x65943 said:


> Will you get the covid vaccine? And if so, which one - the RNA vaccine or the traditional one?
> 
> I'm scheduled to get the pfizer one soon. There have been very few reports of anaphylaxis so far, but it has been managed effectively with epinephrine.
> 
> What are your thoughts?



I already had Covid, so I will not be getting vaccinated. I'm ~40, so symptoms were pretty mild, but ill never forget not being able to move waking up two days in a row.

Would take the 'traditional' one if it weren't pulled for side effects. But I think the rra one is arrogance to some degree - never before done..  scientists think they can program the body to respond to something as well as it can natrually. Like the gain of function research that seemingly got us here to start with. This is stuff we should not be playing with period (ref GoF).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



jimbo13 said:


> *"The U.S. government has issued a ‘vaccine mandate’ for over 100,000 workers that are employed by the Department of Veterans Affairs. The mandate was reported by the New York Times. The vaccine mandate will apply to workers who are “the most patient-facing,” McDonough said, including ‘doctors, dentists, registered nurses, physician assistants and some specialists.’"
> 
> https://trendingpolitics.com/breaki...andate-that-impacts-over-100000-workers-knab/
> *
> And no one asks why so many trained medical professionals, many formerly military who are accustomed to a heavy vax schedule are declining in numbers to the degree it would require a mandate?



Amen, good points. I don't think anyone should be forced anything - and the messaging / ads are absolutely awful as to why you should get vaccinated, especially for young people.  "BC I want to go to the dance at school", one youth says. That is the constant theme. 

Regaining freedom - promised to us by God as humans in the Bill of Rights, is not a valid reason to make a health decision period.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 27, 2021)

FLOOR ALERT: @HouseDemocrats blocked @HouseGOP requests to declassify intelligence on the origins of COVID-19 & #ChineseCommunistParty's subsequent cover-up. The Senate UNANIMOUSLY passed the bill 5⃣5⃣ days ago...what is the Speaker afraid of? #HoldChinaAccountable pic.twitter.com/uOzbadQ41q— House Rules Republicans (@RulesReps) July 20, 2021


Just the latest in a lack of transparency and honesty in the government leading to distrust of vaccines.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 27, 2021)

lol even Trump Mouthpiece is saying everyone should get the Vaccine
*Sarah Sanders urges taking the ‘Trump vaccine’ to combat low vaccination rates*


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> https://twitter.com/RulesReps/status/1417572027578429440
> 
> Just the latest in a lack of transparency and honesty in the government leading to distrust of vaccines.


I can't find any evidence this even happened.

Also, the virus is either worth taking seriously or it isn't. Pick a side.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



eastwald said:


> I already had Covid, so I will not be getting vaccinated. I'm ~40, so symptoms were pretty mild, but ill never forget not being able to move waking up two days in a row.
> 
> Would take the 'traditional' one if it weren't pulled for side effects. But I think the rra one is arrogance to some degree - never before done..  scientists think they can program the body to respond to something as well as it can natrually. Like the gain of function research that seemingly got us here to start with. This is stuff we should not be playing with period (ref GoF).
> 
> ...


It is recommended that people who have recovered from COVID-19 also get vaccinated. We don't know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19, and studies show the vaccine confers even more protection if you already had the disease vs. if you get vaccinated and didn't already have the disease.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I can't find any evidence this even happened.
> 
> Also, the virus is either worth taking seriously or it isn't. Pick a side.


LOL They really are a joke!
Before 1/20 - COVID is fake, nothing but a small Cold. Your making a big deal out of nothing!!
After 1/20- COVID is CHINESE BIO-Weapon created to KILL Americans!! OMG the CARNAGE OF THE CPP Covid!!!!


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm an excellent singer. I simply don't like blanket statements.
> Of course it's preliminary - it was published 2 months ago. I only said it twice now - third time lucky.
> You have no evidence of that. The last time the media propped up a story about someone munching on aquarium cleaner it turned out to be a homicide. As it stands, the latest FDA guidance only permits use of HCQ and CQ in hospital settings where clinical trials are available, so test cohorts are going to be small due to the revoked EUA. Point being, you don't know what it does, neither do I, and claiming otherwise silly.
> Dr.Fauci is a duly appointed Chief Medical Advisor and the COVID team lead, he is de facto a government mouthpiece in all matters regarding COVID. He also did not mince words in his response to the NYT - he revised the proposed figure based on a change in polls, not new emerging evidence. If you want to argue the finer details of his statement, you'll have to argue with him, not me. Me calling him a liar is my opinion, it is subjective and based upon the fact that he demonstrably mislead the population in regards to the minimum required vaccination levels to reach herd immunity, among other things. You are welcome to disagree with that assessment, but nothing you've said so far invalidates it. I'm sorry that his mask slipped in a moment of weakness, but you are not required to mount a defense for him - he can do that himself when asked.
> Both SNL and TDS are comedy entertainment. In the case of SNL it's pure comedy, in the case of TDS it's satirical news. I specifically brought up the comparison because you mentioned Crowder, who fits in the same bracket. You shouldn't draw your information from any of these shows - the only thing you can get out of SNL is cancer, the only thing you can get out of Crowder is cringe, the only thing you can get out of TDS is mild amusement from watching Trevor Noah cry on national television. I wouldn't treat any of these shows as a reliable source, you're the one who threw the first punch in regards to this kind of nonsense.



Back down the numbers~

1)  The study you linked wasn't just preliminary, it was highly questionable and quickly scrutinized. It literally does nothing but prop up a probable coincidence using methods that prove nothing and documentation that is sketchy at parts. It is literally nothing... which is why when Donald Trump praised it on national news several times, people hurt themselves with the substance (which was promptly pounced on by media outlets and is pretty easy to google) and the rest of the world and its medical professionals dropped their heads in collective shame. Kinda like some people might do when reading your replies!

2)  Fauci is a scientist and director with the NIAID who was chosen by every president on either side for decades to advise them regarding diseases, he has an assumed position because of his experience and aptitude while still holding his original job title. As such, he is not beholden to the government as part of his career, he serves at his own whims and in a largely advisory role. You can hold the "opinion" that he is a liar, but that is fallacious because at least insofar as how you've framed him, he hasn't lied. I can't say the same for you in turn, though, so...

3) Comedy comes in many forms. Some people use mockery of the news, some people gather news and mock it. There is a difference there, and while you seemed to presume one might use either as their primary source of news, one of them actually can at least give a taste of current events, even with a heavy bias. Still, if you want to compare Trevor Noah to Steven Crowder or Tucker Carlson, by all means! I've yet to see Trevor back untested garbage theories like the other two.

4) Ah, Jimbo, every time I think you're done spewing feces from your faceholes, you come back~ Having served and working with the VA on a few occasions after returning to civilian life, I can tell you that they hire a VERY diverse group of folk. They take in a lot of people from poor communities that tend to spring up around military bases and VA buildings, and veterans who were not affiliated with the medical field at all for tasks such as IT, coding, clerks, security, etc. They all get to work in big multi-building spanning VAs, which means a mandate spreads out to more than just recently discharged and highly educated medical professionals. Nice try though, thanks for playing.

5) Eastwald, your white christian privilege shines through yet again. You have the right to not take the jab, but regardless on if you think Jesus came to you in a dream and creamed your blood with immunity juice or not, you don't have the right to demand folk tolerate your unvaccinated presence anywhere you care to go. Sorry, dear, take it up with your maker for not making it clear enough for you.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Back down the numbers~
> 
> 1)  The study you linked wasn't just preliminary, it was highly questionable and quickly scrutinized. It literally does nothing but prop up a *probable coincidence* using methods that prove nothing and documentation that is sketchy at parts. It is literally nothing... which is why when Donald Trump praised it on national news several times, *people hurt themselves with the substance* (which was promptly pounced on by media outlets and is pretty easy to google) and the rest of the world and its medical professionals dropped their heads in collective shame. Kinda like some people might do when reading your replies!


This statement is evidence-free. 200% is not probable coincidence - either it's a huge error (which should be easy to point out) or a relevant factor. Can you name who hurt themselves with the substance? I can only think of one story which, in the end, turned out to be a suspected homicide by means of poisoning, not an attempt at self-medication. Not that it matters since nobody advocates self-medicating with substances they don't understand.


> 2)  Fauci is a scientist and director with the NIAID who was chosen by every president on either side for decades to advise them regarding diseases, he has an assumed position because of his experience and aptitude while still holding his original job title. As such, he is not beholden to the government as part of his career, he serves at his own whims and in a largely advisory role. You can hold the "opinion" that he is a liar, but that is fallacious because at least insofar as how you've framed him, he hasn't lied. I can't say the same for you in turn, though, so...


He is a government mouthpiece by the virtue of his position alone. He did lie - fudging stats based on nothing is a lie. Not disclosing to the public that the figure is actually unknown and can only be estimated based on educated guesses is a lie by omission. As for you saying things about me, have at it - I've heard worse.


> 3) Comedy comes in many forms. Some people use mockery of the news, some people gather news and mock it. There is a difference there, and while you seemed to presume one might use either as their primary source of news, one of them actually can at least give a taste of current events, even with a heavy bias. Still, if you want to compare Trevor Noah to Steven Crowder or Tucker Carlson, by all means! I've yet to see Trevor back untested garbage theories like the other two.


Trevor Noah is a shit comedian (which is why his show is on a "summer hiatus") who backs untested theories, particularly conspiracy theories, routinely and on air. There is nothing worthwhile you can draw from The Daily Show, it's purely an entertainment product with a political spin. He explicitly stated on national TV that the U.S. police is specifically trained to kill black people, I quote:


> We’re not dealing with bad apples, we’re dealing with a rotten tree that happens to grow good apples, but for the most part the tree that was planted is bearing the fruit that it was intended to.


In Trevor Noah's mind police officers go out on duty with the express intent to murder citizens and the few "good apples" that don't are an exception from the rule. Good show, good show. Of course you're welcome to have a different opinion on his work, you can't account for taste, but I'd rather watch paint dry.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> This statement is evidence-free. 200% is not probable coincidence - either it's a huge error (which should be easy to point out) or a relevant factor. Can you name who hurt themselves with the substance? I can only think of one story which, in the end, turned out to be a suspected homicide by means of poisoning, not an attempt at self-medication. Not that it matters since nobody advocates self-medicating with substances they don't understand.
> He is a government mouthpiece by the virtue of his position alone. He did lie - fudging stats based on nothing is a lie. Not disclosing to the public that the figure is actually unknown and can only be estimated based on educated guesses is a lie by omission. As for you saying things about me, have at it - I've heard worse.
> Trevor Noah is a shit comedian (which is why his show is on a "summer hiatus") who backs untested theories, particularly conspiracy theories, routinely and on air. There is nothing worthwhile you can draw from The Daily Show, it's purely an entertainment product with a political spin. He explicitly stated on national TV that the U.S. police is specifically trained to kill black people, I quote:
> In Trevor Noah's mind police officers go out on duty with the express intent to murder citizens and the few "good apples" that don't are an exception from the rule. Good show, good show. Of course you're welcome to have a different opinion on his work, you can't account for taste, but I'd rather watch paint dry.


Acknowledging certain problems are demonstrably systemic by using a tree metaphor isn't the propagation of a conspiracy theory.

However, this is a topic best suited for a BLM thread.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Acknowledging certain problems are demonstrably systemic by using a tree metaphor isn't the propagation of a conspiracy theory.
> 
> However, this is a topic best suited for a BLM thread.


Multiple studies over the years have demonstrated that racial bias in policing does not exist - figures for arrests directly correlate with the level of criminality. Black people being arrested more often is not a result of them being black, it's a result of higher crime levels in their neighbourhoods. This problem is solved by stricter, not more lenient policing. When Trevor Noah says that the police is out there to get the black man, he's lying to his audience, or he actually believes that's the case, in which case he's dumb-dumb - you are correct though, thus discussion is more appropriate in the BLM thread.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Multiple studies over the years have demonstrated that racial bias in policing does not exist - figures for arrests directly correlate with the level of criminality. Black people being arrested more often is not a result of them being black, it's a result of higher crime levels in their neighbourhoods. This problem is solved by stricter, not more lenient policing. When Trevor Noah says that the police is out there to get the black man, he's lying to his audience, or he actually believes that's the case, in which case he's dumb-dumb - you are correct though, thus discussion is more appropriate in the BLM thread.


You should probably do more reading on the topic, since the overwhelming preponderance of research indicates there is extensive racial and ethnic discrimination by police and the judicial system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_in_the_United_States_criminal_justice_system

Feel free to tag me in a relevant thread if you wish to continue the conversation.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You should probably do more reading on the topic, since the overwhelming preponderance of research indicates there is extensive racial and ethnic discrimination by police and the judicial system.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_in_the_United_States_criminal_justice_system
> 
> Feel free to tag me in a relevant thread if you wish to continue the conversation.


I don't need to. This is a false narrative, and always has been.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't need to. This is a false narrative, and always has been.
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883



And the header for the link is WSJ Opinion. Beyond fitting for somebody who can only seek out scraps of like mindedness from the web while filtering out any other relevant information.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> And the header for the link is WSJ Opinion. Beyond fitting for somebody who can only seek out scraps of like mindedness from the web while filtering out any other relevant information.


The article links to two studies, one published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences and the other by the Justice Department. You can Google more fairly easily, I'm not your dad - you can find your own resources.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't need to. This is a false narrative, and always has been.
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883


If you're going to insist on having the off-topic conversation about racial bias in policing here, you could at least provided a resource that wasn't behind a paywall. As for what I could read, this opinion piece from a news organization doesn't appear to be, nor does it appear to provide, an academic meta-analysis of the data. You can find some reputable academic research on the Wikipedia page I sent you, if you're actually interested in what the research has to say.

Curiously, did you pay to get around the paywall, do you not see the paywall, or did you copy/paste a link to an article that appeared to support your preconceived notion without actually reading it?


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you're going to insist on having the off-topic conversation about racial bias in policing here, you could at least provided a resource that wasn't behind a paywall. As for what I could read, this opinion piece from a news organization doesn't appear to be, nor does it appear to provide, an academic meta-analysis of the data. You can find some reputable academic research on the Wikipedia page I sent you, if you're actually interested in what the research has to say.
> 
> Curiously, did you pay to get around the paywall, do you not see the paywall, or did you copy/paste a link to an article that appeared to support your preconceived notion without actually reading it?


I'm not forcing you to respond - you're the one insisting on continuing the conversation. I've read the article, and the studies linked within - they're consistent with what I've read over the years, no big surprises. Areas affected by more crime require a stronger police presence, a stronger police presence generates more police encounters, more police encounters generate more arrests. Nothing new under the sun, nothing to do with race.

Edit: Courtesy links to the two studies for people incapable of bypassing a paywall:

https://www.phillypolice.com/assets/directives/cops-w0753-pub.pdf
https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877


----------



## smf (Jul 27, 2021)

WiiCurious said:


> Seriously, the only reason to take a survey is to completely invalidate the data being collected. Why would anybody honestly answer a survey when they have no reason to answer truthfully?



Not everyone is a worthless piece of shit.

Are you seriously asking why would anyone honestly answer a survey, that could save lives?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



MMX said:


> my my my, have you seen the number of Flu deaths going down last year? Obviously to save the lives of others we should wear Masks most of the time. btw, will you get the flu shot this year? it is irresponsible not to!



We possibly should wear masks, like they have done in asia for a while.

I have a flu shot when I'm able to get one, they've only just lowered the age you can get one in the UK.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not forcing you to respond - you're the one insisting on continuing the conversation.


I acknowledged at the beginning of my participation in this topic of conversation that I thought the topic was off-topic, and I said it would appear to be better suited in another thread. If it was going to be a long conversation, I figured it'd be best to move elsewhere sooner rather than later. If you, as the moderator, choose to have the conversation here instead, I can only assume that means it's appropriate to have the conversation here. It is, after all, your responsibility. Under these circumstances, it makes no difference to me either way.

It also takes two for a conversation to continue. Please don't pretend I am any more or less insistent on continuing this conversation than you are.



Foxi4 said:


> I've read the article, and the studies linked within - they're consistent with what I've read over the years, no big surprises. Areas affected by more crime require a stronger police presence, a stronger police presence generates more police encounters, more police encounters generate more arrests. Nothing new under the sun, nothing to do with race.


I can't read the entire article, and from what I saw, it included nothing more than basic crime numbers (i.e. no actual research on the topic of racial biases in policing). Real academic research on the topic is needed, since the basic crime numbers you're touting could also be true in a world where racial biases in policing in fact exist. We know, for example, that areas that are policed more have more police encounters and higher rates of crime. Is the latter true because there's more crime, is the latter true because a higher percentage of crime is caught, or is it a mix of the two? How does one account for the data that shows the demonstrable existence of racial profiling in apples-to-apples comparisons? New York's "stop and frisk" is a good example.

If you want to make your point and make it well, I would suggest providing academic research. The problem with that is the academic research doesn't appear to be on your side. Throwing out basic crime numbers isn't academic research on the topic; it's a (failed) attempt at trying to academic research in front of us.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I acknowledged at the beginning of my participation in this topic of conversation that I thought the topic was off-topic, and I said it would appear to be better suited in another thread. If it was going to be a long conversation, I figured it'd be best to move elsewhere sooner rather than later. If you, as the moderator, choose to have the conversation here instead, I can only assume that means it's appropriate to have the conversation here. It is, after all, your responsibility. Under these circumstances, it makes no difference to me either way.
> 
> It also takes two for a conversation to continue. Please don't pretend I am any more or less insistent on continuing this conversation than you are.
> 
> ...


See above. I posted some courtesy links from the piece. Not really interested in having the same conversation with you for the third time.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> See above. I posted some courtesy links from the piece. Not really interested in having the same conversation with you for the third time.


The point of your first link, as it relates to the topic of racial bias in policing, was unclear to me. It may have been the source for data in the WSJ article that I either didn't see (because of the aforementioned paywall) or take no issue with. I didn't see anything about it that demonstrates racial biases in policing and justice don't exist, but I didn't read the whole thing.

As for the second link, the findings of the study were debunked by Princeton University scholars, who argued that the study's methodology and dataset made it impossible for the authors to reach the conclusion they reached. The authors of the original study issued a correction.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6983428/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7183161/
If you're going to (unfairly) criticize a comedian for spouting a conspiracy theory that's unsupported by evidence, my humble advice is that you also take care not to do the same thing.

Edit: as for not wanting to continue the conversation, that is fine. "I'm not forcing you to respond - you're the one insisting on continuing the conversation."


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I can't find any evidence this even happened.
> 
> It is recommended that people who have recovered from COVID-19 also get vaccinated. We don't know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19, and studies show the vaccine confers even more protection if you already had the disease vs. if you get vaccinated and didn't already have the disease.



"Pick a side! " Take the fuckin vaccine right meow stop asking questions or mentioning our constantly shifting standards, which any scientist who takes their job seriously wouldn't do! You can go to dances again!  We'll let you have your rights back.  Why isn't what 'we' think in any of the advertising as to why to take your vax? I'm healthy, not worried about 98.5% survival rate 'pandemic' - if the man who made the Polio vaccine had your standards, it'd never have been irradiated in the West and most of the world. 

Our low-T comrades (search engine: dropping testosterones levels in men) will let you into buildings again! You can have your God given liberty back - until the next reason we find to take it again.

Didn't mention I've had it twice.  Second time I had no very little ill effects.  "We don't know how long you are protected", so just take it. Right. Meow. Take the shot. Hurry. Might need another booster every year, but uhhh what was I saying again? I'll be fine - you do you, I'll do me.

Are you a scientist like Fauci, who constantly moves goal posts - vaccine totally solves it broz - wait might need a booster - wear masks, don't, ok we lied to get our lot more medical grade masks - WHO said it was not transmissible then it was, let's keep funding them. Logical as scientific communities gender fluid biology crap. We will stunt your natural puberty until you figure out what sex you are. No ill effects for sure. If I held this standard to my line of work, Computer Science, our company would be disgraced and broke and rightfully so.

I bought n-95's in early March, you know when your side was busy with impeachment over legitimate concerns, lying to citizens about why they told us not to buy mask - read Fauci e-mails but I'm guessing, like my niece - a doctor at JHU, I know information like that physically hurts and you probably never read any of it. Her face turns red and she cannot process what to do next, because the logical answer is against her ideology. I was a liberal after Bush. Got us involved in a bunch of wars I thought Democrats were against. Then came Obama, drone strikes on weddings, Libya / Arab Spring, nothing changed. 

t's pure conspiracy! Like New York Times and a bunch of other outlets and the Great Reset - right wing conspiracy. Crap, the IMF put it on their homepage. Oppsie., openly admitting we should never waste an incident like this advance leftist social ideology. 

Covid was a called a wag the dog by many like yourself, since it was mentioned during Trump's first impeachment to distract the masses early on, my niece surely said so, and her lispy doctor friends all agreed.  Trump cannot be right about anything. Well he was. He downplayed it later. But it's ok when the CDC/WHO changes their mind every few months, that is fine? You all said this vaccine was impossible, then they announced it , and you embrace it like a person akin to how someone on MDMA tells everyone they love them. Totally consistent / logical. 

My former company consulted for the highly efficient government you praise so much in many areas of technology, and  historically speaking, f you trust the government to be efficient and honest with you, you don't know history. The rot is unspeakably deep and money is dolled at insane levels to anyone involved in this system. 

I know I'm wasting my time writing this - think I'll go outside. Traditional liberals loved debate in all areas of intellectual curiosity and I was one of them.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Foxi4 said:


> See above. I posted some courtesy links from the piece. Not really interested in having the same conversation with you for the third time.



He posted links w/ UPDATED studies, see, constantly shifting goal posts in the new science! Embrace it, comrade!  

It really is a waste of time arguing w/ any of these people, agree.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The point of your first link, as it relates to the topic of racial bias in policing, was unclear to me. It may have been the source for data in the WSJ article that I either didn't see (because of the aforementioned paywall) or take no issue with. I didn't see anything about it that demonstrates racial biases in policing and justice don't exist, but I didn't read the whole thing.
> 
> As for the second link, the findings of the study were debunked by Princeton University scholars, who argued that the study's methodology and dataset made it impossible for the authors to reach the conclusion they reached. The authors of the original study issued a correction.
> 
> ...


It's always funny arguing with headline readers and skim readers - they see a correction or a retraction, but they don't actually read what's being corrected or retracted. I quote:


> While our data and statistical approach were *appropriate for investigating whether officer characteristics are related to the race of civilians fatally shot by police*, they are inadequate to address racial disparities in the *probability of being shot*.


The study was widely misunderstood as a moratorium on the probability of getting shot. That is not what the researchers were analysing - they were analysing whether the race of the police officer influences their decision-making in regards to shootings. Since this was an issue, they've decided to retract the article, which does not invalidate the findings. The "deboonking" is a strawman, it attacks the researchers for something they've never claimed. Good try though.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 27, 2021)

djpannda said:


> LOL They really are a joke!
> Before 1/20 - COVID is fake, nothing but a small Cold. Your making a big deal out of nothing!!
> After 1/20- COVID is CHINESE BIO-Weapon created to KILL Americans!! OMG the CARNAGE OF THE CPP Covid!!!!



Lab leak is a valid idea. Your dismissals were wrong.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 27, 2021)

eastwald said:


> Lab leak is a valid idea. Your dismissals were wrong.


People's dismissal of the deadliness of the Virus in 2020(based on Lies)  and the Refusal of Vaccine in 2021 (based on Lies) is 'Wrong"


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You should probably do more reading on the topic, since the overwhelming preponderance of research indicates there is extensive racial and ethnic discrimination by police and the judicial system.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_in_the_United_States_criminal_justice_system
> 
> Feel free to tag me in a relevant thread if you wish to continue the conversation.



5) Eastwald, your white christian privilege shines through yet again. You have the right to not take the jab, but regardless on if you think Jesus came to you in a dream and creamed your blood with immunity juice or not, you don't have the right to demand folk tolerate your unvaccinated presence anywhere you care to go. Sorry, dear, take it up with your maker for not making it clear enough for you.[/QUOTE]

Who says I'm a Christian? You are why White Supremacists are idiots - people like you are not the answer. Self-hating white person, I gotta run.




djpannda said:


> People's dismissal of the deadliness of the Virus in 2020(based on Lies)  and the Refusal of Vaccine in 2021 (based on Lies) is 'Wrong"



Even if this were true, two wrong's make it ok for you to lie about another wrong? Modern 'logic' lol




Dakitten said:


> Back down the numbers~
> 
> 5) Eastwald, your white christian privilege shines through yet again. You have the right to not take the jab, but regardless on if you think Jesus came to you in a dream and creamed your blood with immunity juice or not, you don't have the right to demand folk tolerate your unvaccinated presence anywhere you care to go. Sorry, dear, take it up with your maker for not making it clear enough for you.



I'm Jewish, self hating white person.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 27, 2021)

eastwald said:


> 5)
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


wait what? wff your taking about?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> It's always funny arguing with headline readers and skim readers - they see a correction or a retraction, but they don't actually read what's being corrected or retracted. I quote:
> The study was widely misunderstood as a moratorium on the probability of getting shot. That is not what the researchers were analysing - they were analysing whether the race of the police officer influences their decision-making in regards to shootings. Since this was an issue, they've decided to retract the article, which does not invalidate the findings. The "deboonking" is a strawman, it attacks the researchers for something they've never claimed. Good try though.


I read the entire Princeton response. It isn't long. You should read it too. If you're going to argue the original authors weren't making the kinds of arguments that were debunked, you should probably ask them why they made those arguments their principle claims.

@eastwald I am having trouble understanding what you're trying to argue, and I believe you are quoting me by mistake. If you want me to respond to you, please try again.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 27, 2021)

> I am having trouble understanding what you're trying to argue, and I believe you are quoting me by mistake. If you want me to respond to you, please try again.



Of course you are. You can't follow logic or intellectual consistency scientists used to swear by.

Never want your reply, btw.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I read the entire Princeton response. It isn't long. You should read it too. If you're going to argue the original authors weren't making the kinds of arguments that were debunked, you should probably ask them why they made those arguments their principle claims.


I might do that in a more appropriate thread - I believe this would be the 4th and 5th study I post there that indicates no discernable racial bias with all relevant controls accounted for. As I said, we've spoken about this before and I doubt you have any new, groundbreaking evidence that would sway me to your side. Maybe one day, when the bias can be demonstrated and doesn't have a more obvious explanation besides the specter of racism.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I might do that in a more appropriate thread - I believe this would be the 4th and 5th study I post there that indicates no discernable racial bias with all relevant controls accounted for. As I said, we've spoken about this before and I doubt you have any new, groundbreaking evidence that would sway me to your side. Maybe one day, when the bias can be demonstrated and doesn't have a more obvious explanation besides the specter of racism.


The Wikipedia article I provided earlier does a thorough job summarizing the current research, and it acknowledges the shortcomings of what you've provided as well. If you're genuinely interested in seeing how the biases have been demonstrated, I recommend that page as a starting point.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 27, 2021)

eastwald said:


> Of course you are. You can't follow logic or intellectual consistency scientists used to swear by.
> 
> Never want your reply, btw.



D'aww, I'm flattered. He's only here for me~ because I mistook what flavor of abrahamic racist zealot he is. By the by, the point Panda was trying to make was that right-leaning folk are not just moving the goalpost, they're switching to a whole other field whenever their propaganda falls flat by abandoning narratives to take up new vague conspiracies.


----------



## smf (Jul 27, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> If I posted a poll right now "Have Aliens probed Lacius's ass" I am confident It would break 30%, doesn't make it true or that anyone thought that it actually happened.



So if asking people is pointless, why have elections? All the trump supporters are obviously trolls.



Reual said:


> The original quote from bill was not about microchips, but rather identification dyes, specifically for people crossing the border in the event they loose their vaccine documents, so when they reach hospitals, they know what vaccines they had.



Yes we know, because dye's that identify if you've had a vaccine isn't as sexy as bill gates injecting you with microchips and turning you into a magnetic 5g cell tower.

It's like the nigerian prince scams, they make it utterly unbelievable so only the truly thick people will believe it.



Reual said:


> But also it's physically impossible, for anyone to have a small enough microchip that's not detectable, have enough features for wireless capablity, AND also have no battery (as a battery would require surgery).



Conspiracy theorists aren't able to rationalize to that level, otherwise they wouldn't be conspiracy theorists.



Foxi4 said:


> I don't know why people think the government needs to inject them with a microchip secretly to know their every move.



Only for people who don't care if they are being tracked. Your car, your phone & your payment cards can all be tracked.

If you don't carry a mobile, don't drive, don't pay with a card & wear a mask then it's quite difficult for them to track you. There are ways to identify people from cctv from the way they walk, but that is not currently a mass surveillance technique.



Foxi4 said:


> Define "miracle cure" and "not working". A recent observational study of ventilated COVID-19 patients indicates that hydroxychloroquine used in conjunction with azithromycin increases the survival rate by nearly 200%.



Do you have any other trials that support that, because it's been trialed in a lot of other places and there has been no similar results.



Foxi4 said:


> The paper wasn't written by quacks either - it's authored by researchers from Smith Center for Infectious Diseases & Urban Health and Saint Barnabas Medical Center.



By Quack do you mean someone who wouldn't go on fox news talking in April 2020 about hcq?

*https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-stephen-smith-on-effectiveness-of-hydroxychloroquine-with-coronavirus-symptoms-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-pandemic*
*http://video.foxnews.com/v/6146455701001*
*Ingraham's 'Medicine Cabinet' on effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine, whether diabetes increases COVID-19 risk*
Drs. Ramin Oskoui, cardiologist and CEO of Foxhall cardiology, and Stephen Smith, founder of the Smith Center for Infectious Diseases and Urban Health, join Laura Ingraham on 'The Ingraham Angle.'



Foxi4 said:


> If the patients at St. Barnabas were better off when they were administered HCQ+AZM, I'm not going to question that - I'll wait until the results of the study are reviewed and the final version is published.



You would question it, if it wasn't already something you believed though.



Foxi4 said:


> Faucci is on record admitting that he personally manipulated herd immunity numbers knowing that they'll be disseminated by the media,



His initial estimate based on his scientific knowledge was wrong, as more information came out...

_Dr. Fauci said that weeks ago, he had hesitated to publicly raise his estimate because many Americans seemed hesitant about vaccines, which they would need to accept almost universally in order for the country to achieve herd immunity._

That isn't manipulating people. Manipulating people is what Trump does when he tells people that covid will be gone soon, or basically anything else that Trump has ever said.



Foxi4 said:


> and he did so specifically to encourage or discourage certain behaviours. I quote the man himself:
> Of course this is a "white lie" of sorts - ideally that number should be 100%, but that's extremely discouraging. If you keep the bar low and move the goal post incrementally, you're more likely to get people to come since you've put them in a perpetual state of "we're almost there".



Well of course 100% is ideal, what kind of imbecile thinks that by vaccinating 75% of people would be as effective as 100%?
They gave a lower figure for what they thought they could get away with in an emergency, that figure was too low and they had to raise it.



Foxi4 said:


> The funds weren't explicitly dedicated to gain of function research of coronaviruses, that part is correct, but money is fungible - if you fund a given institution for a specific purpose, the money that institution would've otherwise spent for the project out of their own pocket simply funds something else



By that argument, you fund sex traffickers and terrorists. Money that you spend will eventually end up there.



BlazeMasterBM said:


> I know, I don't believe in the micro chip theory at all. I'm just saying they might be able to do something like that, though I doubt on such a large scale. Who knows



I don't think it's at all likely there is any kind of tech that is that small, it would not be something you could do in a small closed environment with few people & if you don't have that then it becomes a nightmare to keep quiet.



Foxi4 said:


> You said quite clearly that hydroxychloroquine "doesn't work" when used in COVID treatment - clearly it does, in specific cases - that's what the latest research says.



The research says quite emphatically it doesn't work, apart from magically when a right wing HCQ advocate uses it. A minute ago you were keeping an open mind, now you're saying it's clearly true. You can't have both.



Foxi4 said:


> if he said one thing based on polls and personal feeling rather than hard science, it makes perfect sense to treat what he says with a degree of skepticism.



There is no hard science, we'll have hard science in about ten years. Right now you'll get a best guess based on whatever peer reviewed studies they can cobble together & that is it.

It's funny how you want absolutes on things you don't believe in, but are happy with vague wishy washy statements when it's something you do.



Foxi4 said:


> HCQ is a drug - either it increases treatment effectiveness or it doesn't, and the answer to that question is found via scientific research, not bumbling idiots on TV.



There are numerous studies that concluded that it is not effective in any circumstance, just one magic one.



Foxi4 said:


> "if Trump said it at any point in time then it must be wrong". If that's the line of thinking both of you are applying on your decision-making, all the power to you, but don't simultaneously claim that what you say is based on "the science" - it's based on personal feeling, more specifically an inherent dislike of your opposition.



It makes perfect sense to treat what he says with a degree of skepticism.



Foxi4 said:


> We are not testing HCQ in isolation



You misunderstand, it was already tested with azithromycin back in 2020 and was found to be no better than placebo.



Foxi4 said:


> Whether it is an error or not remains to be seen based on peer review - the matter is being actively researched around the globe.



It has been researched since the first days of the pandemic.



Foxi4 said:


> Faucci is a government spokesperson - he's literally hired by the administration. He is a specialist, yes, but in his current position I expect him to be truthful and transparent. So far he only seems to be transparent when his feet are put to the fire, and if that's the case, he should be wearing shoes that are constantly engulfed in flames.



You expect the government to be truthful and transparent? Are you sure you're a republican?
He hasn't had his feet put to the fire.



Foxi4 said:


> 200% is not probable coincidence - either it's a huge error (which should be easy to point out) or a relevant factor.



All they had to do was give HCQ to the people they thought would survive, it was an observational trial.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-526005497789

That they even wrote a paper on their unscientific trial, is in itself suspect. It's like a giant red flag saying "I AM TRYING TO MANIPULATE YOU".



Foxi4 said:


> Not disclosing to the public that the figure is actually unknown and can only be estimated based on educated guesses is a lie by omission.



All science is based on educated guesses, you're either incredibly stupid or disingenous.



Foxi4 said:


> Trevor Noah is a shit comedian (which is why his show is on a "summer hiatus")



What? You think he is on holiday because he is a shit comedian? I really don't get the association...



Foxi4 said:


> I'm not forcing you to respond - you're the one insisting on continuing the conversation. I've read the article, and the studies linked within - they're consistent with what I've read over the years, no big surprises.



You believe in the articles that back up what you think, while reserving scepticm for anything that doesn't back up your beliefs. No surprises there.



Foxi4 said:


> Areas affected by more crime require a stronger police presence, a stronger police presence generates more police encounters, more police encounters generate more arrests. Nothing new under the sun, nothing to do with race.



And if you have a police encounter when you're black then you're more likely to get shot.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123070/police-shootings-rate-ethnicity-us/

The police choose where they work.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

smf said:


> *Snip*


I can always count on Mr.Bad Math to show up eventually. As a side note, Cullors bought the house with cash, or more accurately, Abolitionist Entertainment LLC. paid for the house, according to the documentation gathered by the realtor. There's no mortgage on the house - I figured I owe you an update. She also resigned from her position - curiously she did so right after the AG started an investigation against her non-profit. I wonder why she wants to distance herself from her own organisation, or why her other non-profit apparently footed the bill for what is ostensibly her own property. New LLC HQ, perhaps? Doubtful.

In terms of police shootings, swing and a miss - statistics show that black suspects are more likely to face physical force, but *less* likely to be shot in the same circumstances. Digging up some real old posts here:

https://gbatemp.net/threads/theory-related-to-george-floyd-murder.566984/#post-9087042

Since this is unrelated to the thread, I won't indulge you any further - I fully suspect Bad Math to follow, and I won't be responding to it. As for giving interviews, I'm not terribly surprised that a scientist wants to talk about their research, especially if it stands in contrast with other studies - you can boo-hoo the doctor for his FOX appearance all day, I don't turn my nose up when the opposition posts links to The Guardian or other tripe.


----------



## smf (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I fully suspect Bad Math to follow, and I won't be responding to it.



So you're going to assume any replies to your post are wrong and won't be drawn into discussion on it.

No surprise there.



Foxi4 said:


> I don't turn my nose up when the opposition posts links to The Guardian or other tripe.



Of course you do.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

smf said:


> So you're going to assume any replies to your post are wrong and won't be drawn into discussion on it.
> 
> No surprise there.
> 
> Of course you do.


I know how you'll respond before you start typing, that usually helps with preemptive strikes.


----------



## smf (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I know how you'll respond before you start typing, that usually helps with preemptive strikes.



Your arrogance is pitiful.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I know how you'll respond before you start typing, that usually helps with preemptive strikes.



Or ignoring what other people say or link and assuming a pompous attitude that makes you look like a clown.


----------



## smf (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I wonder why she wants to distance herself from her own organisation, or why her other non-profit apparently footed the bill for what is ostensibly her own property. New LLC HQ, perhaps? Doubtful.



Are you saying there is something illegal about what she did?

Do you get as upset about all the shady deals Trump does?

Or do you only suspect black women?

Resigning isn't suspicious.



Dakitten said:


> Or ignoring what other people say or link and assuming a pompous attitude that makes you look like a clown.



That is because he is a clown. Hadn't you noticed already?

He criticizes people based on their political leanings and will bang on about someone who he doesn't support, while excusing people he does. It makes for a pretty poor debate.

If you bring it up then he'll play the victim, but accuse other people of playing the victim.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Or ignoring what other people say or link and assuming a pompous attitude that makes you look like a clown.


Oh, I've made a conscious decision not to engage with Mr.Bad Math a long time ago since conversations with him are a lot like playing tennis with a brick wall - the ball is bouncing back and forth, but in reality you're just talking with yourself over and over. I'm more than happy to ingest any presented evidence and draw new conclusions from it, but I'm not keen on repeating myself for no reason - it's rather exhausting, and doesn't forward the conversation. I'm not entirely sure why you specifically have an issue with what I've been saying so far considering we seem to be in agreement on the requirement of peer review, which is where this conversation started. As for the various adjectives you have to offer, I'll add "pompous" to my long list of titles.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

CDC will recommend everyone in K-12 schools wear a mask -- regardless of vaccination status -- in new guidance

"The CDC is also urging vaccinated people in certain areas of the country to resume wearing masks because of COVID-19."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/politics/cdc-mask-guidance/index.html

I think it's likely the CDC will at some point go back to recommending everyone in public wear masks, regardless of vaccination status. To everyone who didn't get vaccinated, you were told this would happen.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> CDC will recommend everyone in K-12 schools wear a mask -- regardless of vaccination status -- in new guidance
> 
> "The CDC is also urging vaccinated people in certain areas of the country to resume wearing masks because of COVID-19."
> 
> ...


In all fairness, it's hard to oppose a measure like this - young children are not cleared for vaccination as of yet and are liable to be carriers, even if their symptoms are very benign and mortality is fairly low. It's rather uncomfortable for kids who like to fidget, but we've all been uncomfortable for a year now, I think they can take it.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> In all fairness, it's hard to oppose a measure like this - young children are not cleared for vaccination as of yet and are liable to be carriers, even if their symptoms are very benign and mortality is fairly low. It's rather uncomfortable for kids who like to fidget, but we've all been uncomfortable for a year now, I think they can take it.


This is true, but the problem is exacerbated by all of the figurative children who won't get vaccinated.

The broader problem is mask mandates are likely to return soon for everyone. Mask mandates returned in my area recently, for example.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> This is true, but the problem is exacerbated by all of the figurative children who won't get vaccinated.
> 
> The broader problem is mask mandates are likely to return soon for everyone. Mask mandates returned in my area recently, for example.


Ours sadly never went away - definitely not a pleasant experience for my poor nose, but what can you do. I err on the side of safety, as much as I'd like masks to go away for good. It's a process, eventually they will, and people should act like grown-ups about it instead of making a stand to literally die on a hill the size of an ant hill. Good personal hygiene, high sanitisation standards and masks are the least we can do - we won't "stop the spread" no matter what, but we can certainly reduce it as much as possible until the population is vaccinated to a satisfactory degree.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Oh, I've made a conscious decision not to engage with Mr.Bad Math a long time ago since conversations with him are a lot like playing tennis with a brick wall - the ball is bouncing back and forth, but in reality you're just talking with yourself over and over. I'm more than happy to ingest any presented evidence and draw new conclusions from it, but I'm not keen on repeating myself for no reason - it's rather exhausting, and doesn't forward the conversation. I'm not entirely sure why you specifically have an issue with what I've been saying so far considering we seem to be in agreement on the requirement of peer review, which is where this conversation started. As for the various adjectives you have to offer, I'll add "pompous" to my long list of titles.



2+2=4 is based off white supreme pizza math that you are using, only their 2021 science logic  to justify the "vaccine timeline impossible" to "vaccine is here and perfect"  is being filtered past the thick wool covering their eyes. Hope that doesn't get deleted - wording carefully.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Foxi4 said:


> Ours sadly never went away - definitely not a pleasant experience for my poor nose, but what can you do. I err on the side of safety, as much as I'd like masks to go away for good. It's a process, eventually they will, and people should act like grown-ups about it instead of making a stand to literally die on a hill the size of an ant hill. Good personal hygiene, high sanitisation standards and masks are the least we can do - we won't "stop the spread" no matter what, but we can certainly reduce it as much as possible until the population is vaccinated to a satisfactory degree.



They will never be satisficed w/ vaccination rate. Same people who defend Cuomo / rules for thee not for me types putting Covid patients in nursing homes bc they tow their party line - which is why I can never identify as either, since they both do things that are wrong and always will.  The PC climate here is hard to explain, these people literally think its normal to change your species every hour, not a mental problem. I'm a biggity biggot for pointing that out too to these people who hate anyone who believes in spirituality.  "I'm a Jew" means 'orthodox Jew' and zealot apparently.

Pardon us for holding on to any parts of our identity after our relatives were almost erased off the planet.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 27, 2021)

eastwald said:


> 2+2=4 is based off white supreme pizza math that you are using, only their 2021 science logic  to justify the "vaccine timeline impossible" to "vaccine is here and perfect"  is being filtered past the thick wool covering their eyes. Hope that doesn't get deleted - wording carefully.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Okay, full stop seriousness, comrade. I think you're misusing the quote tool. All your quotes are showing up from Foxi4, as I suspect you're trying to quote him quoting me? Quoting doesn't work like that, you gotta use the base post for quoting.

That being said, you're right about something here! It is likely that sensible people won't ever be satisfied with the vaccination rate, because EVERYONE WHO CAN SHOULD GET VACCINATED! Those who don't are being incredibly unkind to those who can't get the vaccination, and perpetuate the chance for the virus to mutate in a why which bypasses the vaccine's effectiveness. Tests and now experience has shown that the vaccine has limited side effects and both limits infection and injury from those who suffer a breakthrough. There's just not really any excuse, except for temper tantrum having fools hugging a flag and praising freedom for saving them from social responsibility.

Also, you're the one who brought up (in a nearly unintelligible rambling of posts) not just a hatred of CRT and BLM, but also abortion rates before whitesplaining MLK. If that doesn't scream strong religious leanings and anti black sentiments, I don't know what does. Also also, your math comparison probably would have worked better with 2+2=5, but it also runs on the assumption that I am both white and a bigot, which is information I haven't volunteered anywhere but in your own headspace. Spoilers: I'm not the girl in my avatar, I'm actually the cat. 

...
Honest.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 27, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> EVERYONE WHO CAN SHOULD GET VACCINATED!


That's one thing we can certainly agree on - I come from a country with various mandatory vaccines and besides the snake tongue and the venom for blood I haven't noticed any side effects. On a more serious note, I try to make concessions in terms of refusals - I don't like to attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance. Fact of the matter is that 90%+ of hospitalisations we're seeing now are unvaccinated patients, that speaks volumes about the effectiveness of the shots, and the risks involved with refusing them. With that being said, there is a contingent of people who cannot be convinced and will always choose the rather high risk of catching the disease over the miniscule risk of vaccine injury, and they're at liberty to do so.

The approach that maximises vaccination rates without sacrificing liberty is to speak the truth about vaccinations and try to convince those who are hesitant. Ideally we'd also see vaccination centers offering a choice between the conventional and the mRNA vaccine as well, since that is a large point of contention, and a matter of preference. As the saying goes, you can drag a horse to water, but you can't make it drink - it's their choice. This leniency does introduce the possibility of further mutations and new variants, which is regrettable, but to me unavoidable - I don't want to give the government a mandate to force people to undergo medical procedures, no matter how necessary they are.

It cannot be stressed enough that the majority of severe COVID cases involve unvaccinated patients, and it's almost entirely avoidable. Attacking people by suggesting that their actions are immoral, or that they're unkind, or stupid, will not change anyone's mind on the matter - talking about things honestly does, which is a goal that supercedes subjective feelings in regards to vaccine opponents. It's a simple elective procedure that can protect you from falling ill or harming your family and friends - that's a good enough selling point to convince most.


----------



## Deleted User (Jul 27, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Okay, full stop seriousness..  Quoting doesn't work like that, you gotta use the base post for quoting.
> --
> That being said, you're right about something here! It is likely that sensible people won't ever be satisfied with the vaccination rate, because EVERYONE WHO CAN SHOULD GET VACCINATED!
> --
> ...



I'm disabled so I'm somewhat limited in my typing capacity, I admit to crimes against quote system though unintentional.

Nuff said. You are a racist if you embrace CRT by definition if you believe in it.  I worked in Baltimore City and met *gasp* human beings with darker skin. Dismiss who people surround themselves w/ all you want, but it seems white people hate white people more than anyone else,  by far. 

Arab slave trade didn't end until 1990. I'm  sure you knew that.

Slaves were sold off by African Kings who wanted money. Creed caused transatlantic slavery - you think people were caught in fishing nets or something en masse? You really sound like someone who would embrace CRT as you seem to think other humans to be not as capable as you.

You are free to leave the country if you don't like the rights given to citizens. The only group telling people what to do and what not to do is: the left.

Would you rather MLK quotes? Nothing in your ideology is compatible. 

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting

White supremacy clearly the problem.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 28, 2021)

Biden to require vaccinations for federal employees

"President Joe Biden will announce on Thursday a requirement that all federal employees and contractors be vaccinated against Covid-19, or be required to submit to regular testing and mitigation requirements, according to a source with direct knowledge of the matter.

The announcement will come in remarks where Biden is also expected to lay out a series of new steps, including incentives, in an attempt to spur new vaccinations as the Delta variant spreads rapidly throughout the country. It will also follow the decision by the Department of Veterans Affairs to require its frontline health care workers to be vaccinated over the course of the next two months."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/poli...eral-employees-under-consideration/index.html


----------



## Valwinz (Jul 28, 2021)

the vaccine is not working? i just got out of the ER
How funny so many people left the ER and the EXACT same thing happened 🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️😂😂 pic.twitter.com/aKQjyiZTSG— leilani dowding 🌸🚜 ☮️ (@LeilaniDowding) July 27, 2021


----------



## djpannda (Jul 28, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> the vaccine is not working? i just got out of the ER
> https://twitter.com/LeilaniDowding/status/1420057084369022979


Lol you do realize A. There dups in the picture B. And fake tweets as I don’t being most white nationalist Nick Fuente’s “Groypers “got the vaccine

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Oh look  Here one of the account you wanted to show off.. it just Antivaxx propaganda



there’s another one .. I don’t think they would be following and quoting Catturd2..


----------



## djpannda (Jul 28, 2021)

Last one .

this ones is a troll mocking the Dr who made the original tweet

.. I want to say @Valwinz was trolling but I honestly believe he though it was real...


----------



## tabzer (Jul 28, 2021)

djpannda solved the mystery.  He single-handedly debunked the existence of Twitter bots.

I'm impressed.

By the way.  Did you see this reputable, and very accomplished, doctor voice his opinion?

*Snip!*


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 28, 2021)

EU signs contract for CoV drug

The EU Commission has signed a framework contract with pharmaceutical company GlaxoSmithKline to procure a drug against coronavirus. Sixteen EU countries are participating in the tender to buy the drug, sotrovimab, for an expected 220,000 treatments, the Brussels-based agency said today.

The drug is currently under review by the European Medicines Agency (EMA). It can reportedly be used to treat mild symptoms.

Patients who did not require supplemental oxygen but were at high risk for a severe covid 19 course could benefit from the treatment. Ongoing studies suggested that early treatment could reduce the number of hospitalizations or even intensive care unit stays needed.

Under the deal, EU countries can acquire sotrovimab once it has received either emergency approval in the country concerned or conditional marketing authorization from the EMA.

The EU Commission previously announced in late June that it was eyeing five promising CoV drugs, including sotrovimab. Four of the drugs contain monoclonal antibodies. These are produced in the laboratory and are designed to disable the virus after infection. Another drug, called Olumiant, reduces the activity of the immune system and is actually supposed to help with rheumatism. The hope is that the anti-inflammatory effect will also help with severe covid-19.

https://ec.europa.eu/germany/news/20210728-medikamente-covid-19_de


----------



## tabzer (Jul 28, 2021)

They are all contracts.  The pandemic was a contract.  CDC was "damage control" for the dumb deal.  Fauci lead with his flip flopping "Jedi mind tricks".


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

I don't know why people are opposed to the notion that sowing COVID panic is an excellent idea (in tactical terms) and that literally every single hostile foreign power would do it to destabilise the country. You guys were first in line to point out every single "Russian Troll" or "Bot" on Twitter during the election, but now the same shtick is falling on deaf ears - I wouldn't ignore it so readily. I'm confident that some trolls are jumping on the bandwagon because they get their jollies from causing chaos and disruption, but the sheer number of those tweets is concerning, especially since it's not reflected by data. It very well might be a concerted effort to keep everyone fearful. Hospitalizations and deaths from COVID are not "crushing us", the virus affects primarily the unvaccinated population and the numbers will keep falling as vaccination rates increase. There's a spike in hospitalizations, but treatments methods have greatly improved since January, so we'll have to wait and see if they translate into a spike in deaths as well (since that's always delayed). So far this hasn't happened (graphs below), which is good. Long story short, don't panic and get your shot whenever you can.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html


----------



## tabzer (Jul 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't know why people are opposed to the idea that sowing COVID panic is an excellent idea that literally every single hostile foreign power would use to destabilise the country. You guys were first in line to point out every single "Russian Troll" or "Bot" on Twitter during the election, but now the same shtick is falling on deaf ears - I wouldn't ignore it so readily. I'm confident that some trolls are jumping on the bandwagon because they get their jollies from causing chaos and disruption, but the sheer number of those tweets is concerning, especially since it's not reflected by data. It very well might be a concerted effort to keep everyone fearful. Hospitalizations and deaths from COVID are not "crushing us", the virus affects primarily the unvaccinated population and the numbers will keep falling as vaccination rates increase. There's a spike in hospitalizations, but treatments methods have greatly improved since January, so we'll have to wait and see if they translate into a spike in deaths as well (since that's always delayed). So far this hasn't happened (graphs below), which is good. Long story short, don't panic and get your shot whenever you can.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html
> 
> View attachment 271490



Just like that @Foxi4 became center.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Just like that @Foxi4 became center.


Hey, no need to insult me.

The virus should've never been politicised - it's not a left or right matter, it's a going forward matter. We have a century of research to prove that vaccination is effective, we also know how viruses work and how to properly contain pandemics. All we have to do is get along for a while and once it's manageable, we can get back to arguing about guns and taxes like we're supposed to.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Hey, no need to insult me.
> View attachment 271492
> The virus should've never been politicised - it's not a left or right matter, it's a going forward matter. We have a century of research to prove that vaccination is effective, we also know how viruses work and how to properly contain pandemics. All we have to do is get along for a while and once it's manageable, we can get back to arguing about guns and taxes like we're supposed to.


upvoted because of meme.

Classifying mRNA circumvention injections as the same as autism causing vaccines, though.  They are sciences apart.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 28, 2021)

tabzer said:


> upvoted because of meme.
> 
> Classifying mRNA circumvention injections as the same as autism causing vaccines, though.  They are sciences apart.


Foxi4 bases his opinions on facts and science not on political party. The fact that I can predict how some people opinions will be based on political parties they aline with is ridiculous and means they don't think for themselves.


No it is not science what your doing. You have no idea how science works. You have no idea how to properly interpret science. That's why you are in the position you are. You think you do, but no. It's the perfect example of the  Dunning Kruger effect.


When you have Lacius and foxi4 who are the better arguers on this site at defending their positions, and constantly opposed on many issues, agree with each other on the vaccine you know you've done fucked up.


The amount of stupidity on this topic amazes me. Can't believe people can be this stupid.


----------



## scroeffie1984 (Jul 28, 2021)

Logic 2.4
• You must get vaccinated to protect the others.
• Which others?
• The elderly and those at risk.
• But those people have already been vaccinated, so they are protected.
• Yes, but it is not because they are vaccinated that the virus cannot be transmitted.
• Ah, so the vaccine isn't efficient?
• Yes, it prevents serious cases.
• But haven't those who can contract serious forms already been vaccinated?
• Yes, but as long as not everyone is vaccinated, we cannot achieve herd immunity.
• Why is this herd immunity so important?
• To protect the weak.
• But the weaker ones have already been vaccinated.
• Yes, but you are an egoist.
• Why am I an egoist?
• Because you refuse vaccination and endanger the lives of others, you can infect them!
• But I'm not sick.
• But you can still infect others!
• Which others?
• The risk groups!
• But they are vaccinated!!!
• Yes, but if you refuse the vaccine we cannot return to normal life.
• And why can't we return to normal life?
• Because there is a risk that the virus will flare up again.
• Quite possible, but with a disease that offers 99.8% survival chances I have nothing to fear!
• But you are a selfish person, you do not think about the others who are seriously ill and need to be resuscitated!
• Yes, but they have already been vaccinated!
• Yes, but as long as there is a risk we cannot go back to normal life!
• What risk do you mean?
• For the weak.
• They have been vaccinated.
• But I'm tired of it! I want to be able to go to restaurants, travel, party!
• That's not a health reason, is it?
• That doesn't matter! Everyone should be vaccinated! In addition, the vaccine is free.
• For free? Nope. WE pay the vaccine from OUR taxes! The vaccine is NOT free!


----------



## Lacius (Jul 28, 2021)

scroeffie1984 said:


> Logic 2.4
> • You must get vaccinated to protect the others.
> • Which others?
> • The elderly and those at risk.
> ...



Not everybody who can die of the disease is vaccinated. Approximately 300 Americans are dying from the disease each day, and the vast majority of them (>99%) are unvaccinated.
The more people who are unvaccinated, the more the disease spreads unchecked among the unvaccinated. The more the disease is spreading, the more likely it is there will be breakthrough infections among those who are vaccinated too.
The more the disease spreads, the more likely it is new variants will pop up that are more infectious, more deadly, and/or make the vaccines less effective.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

SG854 said:


> When you have Lacius and foxi4 who are the better arguers on this site at defending their positions, and constantly opposed on many issues, agree with each other on the vaccine you know you've done fucked up.


I think we're both level-headed in this regard. While we disagree on practical matters like economic and monetary policy or more philosophical disputes like morality or societal issues and the associated potential solutions, it would be ridiculous to disagree on matters of science. That's one area where things are either true or false, with a high degree of confidence - it's not a matter of preference or opinion. The Earth is round, water is wet, vaccines work - you're either on the side that's correct or on the side that's ignorant.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> ...The Earth is round,...



That................is what we have learned in School.............not more,not less....


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 28, 2021)

[sarcasm] Plot twist it was the plan of the anti-vaxxers to breed and spread mutations all along. [/sarcasm]

I hope not.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I think we're both level-headed in this regard. While we disagree on practical matters like economic and monetary policy or more philosophical disputes like morality or societal issues and the associated potential solutions, it would be ridiculous to disagree on matters of science. That's one area where things are either true or false, with a high degree of confidence - it's not a matter of preference or opinion. The Earth is round, water is wet, vaccines work - you're either on the side that's correct or on the side that's ignorant.


Stuff like societal issues and economics are a little more complex because there's so many factors you have to control for and account. It's not as straight forward as vaccine science.


It just baffles me the amount of stubbornness some people have and the psychology behind it. I can understand people that are new to a topic, but people that have been repeatedly debunked and repeatedly told the same thing over and over and still hold on to their stubbornness is baffling.


It tells me it's personal issues, mentally not mature enough to admit faults when they are wrong so they double down. They want to project this image they want others to perceive them as so they can't admit faults. That's just my theory on this.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

SG854 said:


> They want to project this image they want others to perceive them as so they can't admit faults. That's just my theory on this.


They should all just be like me and never be wrong.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> They should all just be like me and never be wrong.


I sometimes forget you have a sense of humor.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I sometimes forget you have a sense of humor.


The brightest lights tend to be blinding.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 28, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I sometimes forget you have a sense of humor.


Was that a jab at Foxi4? lol


----------



## Skelletonike (Jul 28, 2021)

Welp, I got the vaccine around two weeks ago and I got this certificate which allows me to go out on weekends and have dinner on a restaurant at a friday night... Waste of paper since I'm too lazy to actually go anywhere though.

Anyway, got the shot from Moderna and all I had was normal soreness (or maybe everything was rotting inside my arm and mutating me into a zombie, who knows).


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Was that a jab at Foxi4? lol


Looks like we're all talking about jabs.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 28, 2021)

scroeffie1984 said:


> Logic 2.4
> *snip*


Fallacy. Vaccination's goal is and *has always been* to make sure diseases that can mutate enough to potentially bypass immunity (be it "natural" or through exposure methods like vaccines) are eliminated or at least kept in check quickly enough and long enough that we can manage those mutations. Basic idea : the more the virus replicates, the more it has changes of introducing those mutations that could have it bypass acquired immunity for those that had the illness before and those that are vaccinated against it.
Its numerous replications come mostly from allowing it to spread in unvaccinated population, most of which is a *fucking stupid choice of yours.*
Also, you don't seem to be aware that the second most important goal of vaccination is to *protect those that are too weak to be vaccinated*. Because they cannot be vaccinated and acquire an immunity for themselves, the only way to keep them safe, short of locking them into their houses with no one to see, is to make sure people around them will not spread those illnesses to them. That is also true of COVID.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The Earth is round


And apparently the universe is a donut.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> And apparently the universe is a donut.


Well, apparently the universe is actually flat, at least according to WMAP and BOOMERanG experiments, with a high degree of confidence (0.4% margin of error).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe

Its curvature is just high enough to support our existence, but within such narrow bounds that it can be considered flat. The donut model dates back to 1984, I'm pretty sure more modern testing methods have ruled it out, but we'll probably never know for sure - infinity is hard to measure.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Well, apparently the universe is actually flat, at least according to WMAP and BOOMERanG experiments, with a high degree of confidence (0.4% margin of error).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe
> 
> Its curvature is just high enough to support our existence, but within such narrow bounds that it can be considered flat. The donut model dates back to 1984, I'm pretty sure more modern testing methods have ruled it out, but we'll probably never know for sure - infinity is hard to measure.


Honestly, I only brought it up, because the donut universe is recently being talked about and I thought it was funny. That said, I think the idea is that it is both flat and donut shaped.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Honestly, I only brought it up, because the donut universe is recently being talked about and I thought it was funny. That said, I think the idea is that it is both flat and donut shaped.


At least the Flat Earthers can always switch to Flat Universers and they'll technically be right. That's a good save.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 28, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Foxi4 bases his opinions on facts and science not on political party. The fact that I can predict how some people opinions will be based on political parties they aline with is ridiculous and means they don't think for themselves.
> 
> 
> No it is not science what your doing. You have no idea how science works. You have no idea how to properly interpret science. That's why you are in the position you are. You think you do, but no. It's the perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect.



"mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. That immune response, which produces antibodies, is what protects us from getting infected if the real virus enters our bodies."

I thought the difference was obvious, but maybe you need a quote from the CDC?

Also...  On the political front.

Australia Prime Minister Said That If You Die From The Vaccine, It’s Your Fault, Because It’s Your Job To Get Informed Consent From Your GP, Prior To Getting Vaccinated. https://t.co/lNaw9PbqRr

I guess, if you sign the waiver, then politicians, medical providers, mRNA new-type vaccine creators cannot be held accountable?

If the individual is responsible for their own health choices, then the individual is not responsible for reaching the ever elusive goalpost of "herd immunity"--which as Fauci admitted was a poll science.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 28, 2021)

tabzer said:


> "mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. That immune response, which produces antibodies, is what protects us from getting infected if the real virus enters our bodies."
> 
> I thought the difference was obvious, but maybe you need a quote from the CDC?


Yes, this is how they work, and yes, this is the first time they're rolled out on such a scale since they were originally developed in 1989, but there's a first time for everything. So far they show substantially higher effectiveness compared to the traditional vaccine (60% vs 90%+ efficacy), but there is some degree of fear over unknown and unexpected complications. With that being said, you have a test cohort of such an immense size that side effects would've been pretty obvious by now.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Yes, this is how they work, and yes, this is the first time they're rolled out on such a scale since they were originally developed in 1989, but there's a first time for everything. So far they show substantially higher effectiveness compared to the traditional vaccine (60% vs 90%+ efficacy), but there is some degree of fear over unknown and unexpected complications. With that being said, you have a test cohort of such an immense size that side effects would've been pretty obvious by now.



Or long enough for the "correlation does not mean causation" argument to kick in?

When the inoculation teaches the immune system to fight the protein and not the germ, then variants of the germ are probably more likely to survive.

I doubt the efficacy is 90% when we see (at least) 6 out of 12 vaccinated people contract covid.

If one ignores the VEARS blowing up, which should be an obvious red-flag, then I doubt one has an interest in investigating or reporting its side effects.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Or long enough for the "correlation does not mean causation" argument to kick in?
> 
> When the inoculation teaches the immune system to fight the protein and not the germ, then variants of the germ are probably more likely to survive.
> 
> ...


The Pfizer vaccine is approximately 90% effective against asymptomatic infection, and it's even higher against mild, moderate, and severe symptoms. Against the delta variant, it's more like 80% effective against asymptomatic infection.

Because of there being so many people who are unvaccinated and spreading the disease, the odds of breakthrough infections are higher.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Or long enough for the "correlation does not mean causation" argument to kick in?
> 
> When the inoculation teaches the immune system to fight the protein and not the germ, then variants of the germ are probably more likely to survive.
> 
> ...


The efficacy of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is pretty much equivalent and around 95%. The efficacy of J&J (a different vaccine method altogether, it's a single-shot viral vectored vaccine using a trained adenovirus carrying SARS-CoV2 spike protein genetic material, more akin to how a traditional vaccine would work) is measured at 66% globally. Vaccines do not stop you from catching the disease, that's not how they work and it's not how they've ever worked. Efficacy is measured by checking whether the body is capable of mounting a correct immune response or not. Whether you catch the disease or not is more a matter of how effective your immune system is, not how effective the vaccine is - the vaccine only teaches your body how to combat the pathogen, your body still has to deal with it. People with weak immune responses will still catch it, but they're unlikely to *die* from it, that's the point.

Tl;dr If you're worried about the implications of mRNA technology, go for the non-mRNA option if possible. It's less effective, but something is better than nothing. Its rollout should've never been paused over a few rare instances of complications - we always knew there would be some. Far more people have died from the disease in the time it was paused than would've suffered from blood clots if it wasn't. Having a non-mRNA option available would've helped with distribution among the vaccine hesitant.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Having a non-mRNA option available would've helped with distribution among the vaccine hesitant.


I'm not so sure, I think a lot of people who say they're hesitant because of the "newness" of the mRNA vaccines are really just looking for any excuse, and a good portion of them are already aware of the J&J vaccine being more traditional.  Call them out on that and they just move on to the "not fully FDA approved" excuse.  Once all the vaccines are fully approved it'll be something else.  It never ends with people who are committed to ignorance for life.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I'm not so sure, I think a lot of people who say they're hesitant because of the "newness" of the mRNA vaccines are really just looking for any excuse, and a good portion of them are already aware of the J&J vaccine being more traditional.  Call them out on that and they just move on to the "not fully FDA approved" excuse.  Once all the vaccines are fully approved it'll be something else.  It never ends with people who are committed to ignorance for life.


Anecdotally, I personally know people who have hesitancy about the mRNA vaccines who got the J&J vaccine. I think you're right that most people are just looking for any excuse to be against the vaccines, but the existence of the J&J vaccine and others like it are beneficial for this reason and others. I also know people who hate shots and wanted something "one and done."


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I'm not so sure, I think a lot of people who say they're hesitant because of the "newness" of the mRNA vaccines are really just looking for any excuse, and a good portion of them are already aware of the J&J vaccine being more traditional.  Call them out on that and they just move on to the "not fully FDA approved" excuse.  Once all the vaccines are fully approved it'll be something else.  It never ends with people who are committed to ignorance for life.


It's an alternative nonetheless. If anyone is hesitant based on that factor, they have an alternative, and having alternatives is good. You have to pick your battles - do you want to get people vaccinated or do you want to call them stupid? Those two things are not one and the same. The worries are not baseless - we don't know the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines and vaccine injury does exist. Thing is, those two worries pale in comparison to the risk posed by the disease itself - they're theoretical and distant, the risk from COVID is  both very real and present. Imagine you're on the 2nd floor of a burning building and you have the option of A) trusting the firefighters, who are trained and know what they're doing, to catch you with their trampoline, with a small risk of hurting yourself in the process, or B) staying in the burning house and hoping for the best that the fire is put out before it gets to you. I'll take a broken leg, thank you - my leg will heal, it's hard to recover from getting chargrilled.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> do you want to get people vaccinated or do you want to call them stupid?


I was never the one advising against vaccination in the first place, that was always their own political leaders and media figures.  Thankfully many of those people have reversed course _now_, but it may be too late to save as many constituents as they would've liked.  Especially given how conspiracy-minded, and several layers of confirmation bias deep, a lot of those constituents are.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I was never the one advising against vaccination in the first place, that was always their own political leaders and media figures.  Thankfully many of those people have reversed course _now_, but it may be too late to save as many constituents as they would've liked.  Especially given how conspiracy-minded and several layers of confirmation bias deep a lot of those constituents are.


The problem I have with the pro-vax movement right now is that they're branding vaccine hesitant people immoral idiots. That's not how you change hearts and minds - vinegar will never be as effective as honey. They're, by and large, not stupid - the loud, conspiratorial ones might be, but most are just uninformed. We should try to meet half-way and dispel their doubts, otherwise you're just reinforcing their beliefs. You have to look at it from their perspective - they're looking at a brand-new disease that appears to primarily attack the elderly, and the rolled out vaccines are using new technology that they don't fully understand. Even the researchers themselves acknowledge that they're in uncharted territory - that doesn't build confidence in a layman. I personally know a lot of young people who look at the mortality graph and shrug - they, objectively, don't need the jab as much as grandpa does. By all statistical measures they're at risk of catching the sniffles, so it's a pretty hard sell. The point of them taking the vaccine is explicitly stopping the spread, so you have to incentivise that as an objectively correct and good course of action, for a variety of reasons.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 29, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Anecdotally, I personally know people who have hesitancy about the mRNA vaccines who got the J&J vaccine. I think you're right that most people are just looking for any excuse to be against the vaccines, but the existence of the J&J vaccine and others like it are beneficial for this reason and others. I also know people who hate shots and wanted something "one and done."


The funny part is I know many Catholics that refused  J&J as it was created “with info derived from stem cell research” and wanted mRNA as it was Developed farther from stem cell research. Either way they got vaccinated..


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> The funny part is I know many Catholics that refused  J&J as it was created “with info derived from stem cell research” and wanted mRNA as it was Developed farther from stem cell research. Either way they got vaccinated..


More evidence that more options is better. People like choice, they don't like coercion. If you make the vaccine elective, accessible and acceptable based on their beliefs, most will take it.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> More evidence that more options is better. People like choice, they don't like coercion. If you make the vaccine elective, accessible and acceptable based on their beliefs, most will take it.


People with valid Religious beliefs are not the issue.(as almost all Major Religons have stated  that the use of the vaccine is acceptable as “ the number of human lives that will save outweighs the “stem cell “ issue.

 .it’s people who believe  Tucker Carlson and Q are all knowing Gods when they  says all vaccines are murderous experiments ..that’s the problem


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> People with valid Religious beliefs are not the issue..it’s people who believe  Tucker Carlson and Q are all knowing Gods when they  says all vaccines are murderous experiments ..that’s the problem


To my knowledge, Tucker Carson has never spoken against vaccination as a method of building immunity. He criticised vaccine mandates which are an imposition on liberty if mandated by the state, he criticised news agencies for having a position on whether their viewers should or should not vaccinate because journalists are not medical professionals and should not issue medical advice, and I believe he may have tackled the fact that vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued for the negative outcomes caused by their product, which is a privilege that does not apply to any other industry. All three are valid concerns which are rarely talked about in the mainstream. If you can cite him saying that it's a conspiracy to kill people, I would like to see that quote - he himself vehemently denies any accusations of being an anti-vaxxer. In all fairness, I may not be aware of all of his past statements as I don't really know much about him, nor do I care since I don't watch FOX, but that seems like an extraordinary accusation - one that he personally denies.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> To my knowledge, Tucker Carson has never spoken against vaccination as a method of building immunity. He criticised vaccine mandates which are an imposition on liberty if mandated by the state, he criticised news agencies for having a position on whether their viewers should or should not vaccinate because journalists are not medical professionals and should not issue medical advice, and I believe he may have tackled the fact that vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued for the negative outcomes caused by their product, which is a privilege that does not apply to any other industry. All three are valid concerns which are rarely talked about in the mainstream. If you can cite him saying that it's a conspiracy to kill people, I would like to see that quote - he himself vehemently denies any accusations of being an anti-vaxxer. In all fairness, I may not be aware of all of his past statements as I don't really know much about him, nor do I care since I don't watch FOX, but that seems like an extraordinary accusation - one that he personally denies.


. "So maybe it doesn't work, and they're simply not telling you that. Well, you'd hate to think that, especially if you've gotten two shots. But what's the other potential explanation? We can't think of one."


“force people to take medicine they don’t want or _NEED_.” (Implying COVID is not a problem)

“ 3,362 people apparently died after getting the COVID vaccines in the United States....The actual number is almost certainly much higher than that — perhaps vastly higher”

The fact his comparing the vaccine to a Lobotomy andSterilization, his base are just parriot whatever he says, they are are under the impression that his show is Real News not a “Entertainment show” as they claim in court .This is dangerous.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The problem I have with the pro-vax movement right now is that they're branding vaccine hesitant people immoral idiots. That's not how you change hearts and minds - vinegar will never be as effective as honey. They're, by and large, not stupid - the loud, conspiratorial ones might be, but most are just uninformed. We should try to meet half-way and dispel their doubts, otherwise you're just reinforcing their beliefs. You have to look at it from their perspective - they're looking at a brand-new disease that appears to primarily attack the elderly, and the rolled out vaccines are using new technology that they don't fully understand. Even the researchers themselves acknowledge that they're in uncharted territory - that doesn't build confidence in a layman. I personally know a lot of young people who look at the mortality graph and shrug - they, objectively, don't need the jab as much as grandpa does. By all statistical measures they're at risk of catching the sniffles, so it's a pretty hard sell. The point of them taking the vaccine is explicitly stopping the spread, so you have to incentivise that as an objectively correct and good course of action, for a variety of reasons.


It's like a teacher calling their students idiots for not knowing what they know. The best method for the teacher is to educate without resorting to name calling.

But that's not the issue people have with anti-vax. The issue is not uneducated people. The issue is educated people being stubborn. People knowing the benefits for vaccine, from arguments they heard or whatever, and still being stubbornly against it. That's what I reserve the word idiot for.


I know people don't like being called idiots. And they get defensive so they double down. But I just don't care anymore. Knowing they will get defensive, and even less likely to get vaccinated, I will still call them idiots.

This may seem counter intuitive because it's against what we want from them. We want them to get vaccinated. But they are going to be stubborn no matter what you say. If you go pages and pages, talking about it in many different angles, approaching it in many different ways, and they still don't budge then they won't change.

So the goal of calling them idiots is not for them, hoping it will get them to change. The reason for calling them idiots is for other people reading or listening in these conversations. To make the stubborn person look as ridiculous as possible. Then the more you make them look ridiculous, the more motivating it is for other people that are tuning in to not want to look like them so the more likely they are to get vaccinated.

Sometimes humiliating people, making jokes about them, and making them look ridiculous using good sound arguments and good logic is the best motivator for others after all other methods have been exhausted.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The problem I have with the pro-vax movement right now is that they're branding vaccine hesitant people immoral idiots. That's not how you change hearts and minds - vinegar will never be as effective as honey. They're, by and large, not stupid - the loud, conspiratorial ones might be, but most are just uninformed. We should try to meet half-way and dispel their doubts, otherwise you're just reinforcing their beliefs. You have to look at it from their perspective - they're looking at a brand-new disease that appears to primarily attack the elderly, and the rolled out vaccines are using new technology that they don't fully understand.


Thankfully it's not my job to ensure anti-vaxxers are well-informed and argue the facts from every psychological angle on the books, I couldn't possibly get paid enough for that.  Ultimately they're most likely to be harming themselves more than anyone else, which is again why conservatives are scrambling to reverse their messaging now.  If even half of the old farts in the party die off, they're never winning another election on the federal level again.  Not to mention all the COVID long-haulers who might start demanding better healthcare.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> . "So maybe it doesn't work, and they're simply not telling you that. Well, you'd hate to think that, especially if you've gotten two shots. But what's the other potential explanation? We can't think of one."
> 
> 
> “force people to take medicine they don’t want or _NEED_.” (Implying COVID is not a problem)
> ...


Let's examine this statement by statement without sensational headlines.


> "If the vaccine is effective, there is no reason for people who've received a vaccine to wear masks or avoid physical contact, so maybe it doesn't work, and they're simply not telling you that. Well, you'd hate to think that, especially if you've gotten two shots. But what's the other potential explanation? We can't think of one."


That's a criticism of mask mandates, not vaccines. If you are vaccinated, the risk of you catching the disease is greatly diminished, let alone passing the disease on to another person, so there's no logical reason to require it. It does imply that vaccines don't actually work - that's a logical conclusion from the policy. It's not true, which further underlines why the policy is boneheaded without an additional explanation - the government cannot verify whether you've taken the vaccine or not due to potential HIPAA violations. That's the actual reason why a mask mandate would have to be universal, not lack of efficacy.


> Mr. Carlson, the highest-rated Fox News host, with an average of 2.9 million viewers, said the Biden plan was an attempt to “force people to take medicine they don’t want or need.” He called the initiative “the greatest scandal in my lifetime, by far.”


He's right when he says that not everybody *needs* the vaccine (again, mortality in young people is 0.2%, that's not a pressing concern for them - young people should take it to protect others, lessening their risk is an added benefit, not the goal), he's right when he says that going door to door is a bizarre (I'd have serious concerns in regards to privacy) and he's right that it shouldn't be forced on people - it's good, but should be elective. He says as much later.


> "Between late December of 2020, and last month, a total of 3,362 people apparently died after getting the COVID vaccines in the United States. Three thousand, three hundred, and sixty-two — that's an average of 30 people every day."


No idea where he got that figure from, so I'm not going to defend that. It's entirely possible that one of his assistants provided him a number of deaths of people who were also vaccinated, but died in general in that time frame - that's far more believable, but would require a correction on his part. In any case, if the number were true, which it isn't, it would still be insignificant given the sheer amount of people who were vaccinated so far.


> "American citizens should never be forced to take medicine they don’t want, period. Governments should never require people to submit to any medical procedure, whether that procedure is sterilization, or frontal lobotomies or COVID vaccine"


This is a criticism of vaccination mandates, not vaccines. It's also apt considering the fact that the U.S. government *was* involved in compulsory sterilisation as well as lobotomising patients. It's not a pleasant part of history, but it's history nonetheless. His point, in case you didn't understand, is that the state should not be empowered to force you to undergo any medical procedure you don't want - you have bodily autonomy which supercedes the whims of the government. If the government is *forcing* you to take a specific medicine, that's an indication of impropriety, regardless of whether there's actually something wrong with it or not.

So far you have failed to provide a statement where Tucker calls the vaccines a "plot to murder people", he's raising concerns, some valid and some invalid, regarding the program as a whole. In fact, one of your own articles states precisely what he thinks.


> I’ve had a million vaccines in my life, as we all have,” the host said on an April show. “I think vaccines are great.”


You're more than welcome to criticise him for potentially causing vaccine hesitancy and one of the listed figures is clearly incorrect, which he should provide an errata for, but you don't have to twist his words to make a point. He hasn't said that this is some bizarre plot to murder people, and if he has, I haven't heard that yet. You can prove me wrong if you find such a quote, I'm open to changing my mind, but you'll have to try a bit harder than that.



SG854 said:


> It's like a teacher calling their students idiots for not knowing what they know. The best method for the teacher is to educate without resorting to name calling.
> 
> But that's not the issue people have with anti-vax. The issue is not uneducated people. The issue is educated people being stubborn. People knowing the benefits for vaccine, from arguments they heard or whatever, and still being stubbornly against it. That's what I reserve the word idiot for.
> 
> ...


Shame is a great motivator when it comes to people who know and respect you. If your mom or dad are refusing to take the jab, you should call them idiots, and they might listen. If you call a stranger an idiot, not only will they not listen to you, they will actively despise you and your suggestion. Doing this is counterproductive, you are creating vaccine hesitancy just as much as anti-vaxxers are by making your side of the argument insufferable. Few things can match the power of spite.


Xzi said:


> Thankfully it's not my job to ensure anti-vaxxers are well-informed and argue the facts from every psychological angle on the books, I couldn't possibly get paid enough for that.  *Ultimately they're most likely to be harming themselves more than anyone else*, which is again why conservatives are scrambling to reverse their messaging now.  If even half of the old farts in the party die off, they're never winning another election on the federal level again.  Not to mention all the COVID long-haulers who might start demanding better healthcare.


Again, you are going against your stated goals. You want them to do you a solid, not the other way around, because you want to avoid generating more variants that people are not immune to. They already don't care about the consequences - they've made a risk-reward calculation and it didn't go the way you'd find broadly beneficial. It is encumbent on you to change their minds, and being an asshole about it isn't going to do the trick. All this time the pro-vaccine crowd was explicitly stating that they care about saving lives - now you claim that you don't care about their lives, so which one is it? If you state one thing, but actually believe another, then you're being duplicitous.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Let's examine this statement by statement without sensational headlines.
> That's a criticism of mask mandates, not vaccines. If you are vaccinated, the risk of you catching the disease is greatly diminished, let alone passing the disease on to another person, so there's no logical reason to require it. It does imply that vaccines don't actually work - that's a logical conclusion from the policy. It's not true, which further underlines why the policy is boneheaded with out an additional explanation - the government cannot verify whether you've taken the vaccine or not due to potential HIPAA violations. That's the actual reason why a mask mandate would have to be universal, not lack of efficacy.
> He's right when he says that not everybody *needs* the vaccine (again, mortality in young people is 0.2%, that's not a pressing concern fir them - young people should take it to protect others, lessening their risk is an added benefit, not the goal) he's right when he says that going door to door is a bizarre (I'd have serious concerns in regards to privacy) and he's right that it shouldn't be forced on people - it's good, but should be elective. He says as much later.
> No idea where he got that figure from, so I'm not going to defend that. It's entirely possible that one of his assistants provided him a number of deaths of people who were also vaccinated, but died in general in that time frame - that's far more believable, but would require a correction on his part. In any case, if the number were true, which it isn't, it would still be insignificant given the sheer amount of people who were vaccinated so far.
> ...


Like I said any responsible sensible person would interpret claims like you just did.. but Tuckers base are ... “not responsible or sensible”.Tucker purposely uses this to “Infer” that it’s not safe


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> Like I said any responsible sensible person would interpret claims like you just did.. but Tuckers base are ... “not responsible or sensible”.Tucker purposely uses this to “Infer” that it’s not safe


Tucker is not responsible for how third-parties misinterpret his statements - he's not their dad.


----------



## djpannda (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Tucker is not responsible for how third-parties misinterpret his statements - he's not their dad.


Yup, a mod accepting and allowing Malicious interpretations of data that is purposely used to allow and promote needless death, sickness and suffering .. nothing wrong with that


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> Yup, a mod accepting and allowing Malicious interpretations of data that is purposely used to allow and promote needless death, sickness and suffering .. nothing wrong with that


You've tried this shtick before and it didn't work, I don't know why you think it will this time. You (and anybody with basic literacy skills) know that's not what I said. I'm sorry that you couldn't find a quote that supports your hyperbolic accusation, maybe next time you can accuse someone of something that's actually believable and provable. Of course you don't have to take the advice, I'm not your dad.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> almost all Major Religons have stated that the use of the vaccine is acceptable



Crap.  This is as dumb as "science says".


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

Here's some AJ to digest.  (And some Canadian Doctors)

https://www.infowars.com/posts/deadly-blood-clots-develop-in-62-of-people-receiving-covid-vaccine/



SG854 said:


> The reason for calling them idiots is for other people reading or listening in these conversations.



Oh nice.  Bullying people vicariously.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 29, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> It is encumbent on you to change their minds, and being an asshole about it isn't going to do the trick. All this time the pro-vaccine crowd was explicitly stating that they care about saving lives - now you claim that you don't care about their lives, so which one is it? If you state one thing, but actually believe another, then you're being duplicitous.


Duplicity doesn't enter into the equation, the simple fact of the matter is that my patience has a time limit, especially when it comes to dealing with fully grown, supposedly-mature adults.  I put in more than six good months of telling everybody and their dog to get vaccinated, online and off.  Those that were gonna take my advice (for what little it's worth) have already done so.  Those stubborn idiots that won't even listen to the new pro-vaccine position of right-wing pundits and political leaders were never going to be swayed by anything I have to say.



Foxi4 said:


> Again, you are going against your stated goals. You want them to do you a solid, not the other way around, because you want to avoid generating more variants that people are not immune to.


More variants are not ideal, but then we'll just have more vaccine boosters that the anti-vaxxers won't take.  Eventually Darwinism wins out.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I put in more than six good months of telling everybody and their dog to get vaccinated, online and off



Holy crap.

It's not your "job" to 'encourage' people to get the vaccine.  The vaccine is for people who are afraid of covid.  If it's not good enough, stay inside, with a mask on.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Holy crap.
> 
> It's not your "job" to 'encourage' people to get the vaccine.  The vaccine is for people who are afraid of covid.  If it's not good enough, stay inside, with a mask on.





Xzi said:


> Thankfully it's not my job to ensure anti-vaxxers are well-informed and argue the facts from every psychological angle on the books, I couldn't possibly get paid enough for that. Ultimately they're most likely to be harming themselves more than anyone else, which is again why conservatives are scrambling to reverse their messaging now. If even half of the old farts in the party die off, they're never winning another election on the federal level again. Not to mention all the COVID long-haulers who might start demanding better healthcare.


I didn't say it was my job, I just want all the people I know to stay safe.  If you don't want the same for the people closest to you, then maybe you're a bit of a narcissist or sociopath.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I didn't say it was my job, I just want all the people I know to stay safe.  If you don't want the same for the people closest to you, then maybe you're a bit of a narcissist or sociopath.



Yeah, I'm a narcissist *and *a sociopath because I think you *are conflicted.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Here's some AJ to digest.  (And some Canadian Doctors)
> 
> https://www.infowars.com/posts/deadly-blood-clots-develop-in-62-of-people-receiving-covid-vaccine/
> 
> ...


Some people need to hear the truth, a little dose of reality and a little dose of the vaccine


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Some people need to hear the truth, a little dose of reality and a little dose of the vaccine



If your primary goal is "whatever is popular", as you have inferred before, it has little to do with being objective.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> If your primary goal is "whatever is popular", as you have inferred before, it has little to do with being objective.


Your logic and the way you twist things is fucking crazy. 

So you are against the vaccine because it is popular among doctors and researchers?


You are the most ridiculous person I have ever seen.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Yeah, I'm a narcissist *and *a sociopath because I think you *are conflicted.


"*If you don't want the same for the people closest to you*, then maybe you're a bit of a narcissist or sociopath."

I wasn't sure that statement applied to you, but I guess you kind of confirmed it now, eh?


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Your logic and the way you twist things is fucking crazy.
> 
> So you are against the vaccine because it is popular among doctors and researchers?
> 
> ...



I am skeptical of the *new-type vaccine for many reasons.  Not because it is "popular".  Nice projection, idiot.



Xzi said:


> "*If you don't want the same for the people closest to you*, then maybe you're a bit of a narcissist or sociopath."
> 
> I wasn't sure that statement applied to you, but I guess you kind of confirmed it now, eh?



I read it as an insinuation as you didn't really give a third option.  If you have something to add, I am here for you.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I am skeptical of the vaccine for many reasons.  Not because it is popular.  Nice projection, idiot.



You've kinda egged on a bit of hostility, comrade. If you've got reasons for those concerns, voice 'em. Otherwise you're just shitposting and sharing a scam artist pariah whose been debunked so many times it might make one's head spin.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> You've kinda egged on a bit of hostility, comrade. If you've got reasons for those concerns, voice 'em. Otherwise you're just shitposting and sharing a scam artist pariah whose been debunked so many times it might make one's head spin.



The irony of this post coming from someone who has already been debunked.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I am skeptical of the vaccine for many reasons.  Not because it is "popular".  Nice projection, idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> I read it as an insinuation as you didn't really give a third option.  If you have something to add, I am here for you.


Can't be projection if thats not my reason on why I support vaccines. 

You calling me idiot makes me feel nothing considering how bad your arguments are. If you were a better debater then it would have more sting but your like a bee that has no stinger.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The irony of this post coming from someone who has already been debunked.



Dear fellow or lass... what the fluff are you on about?


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> You've kinda egged on a bit of hostility, comrade. If you've got reasons for those concerns, voice 'em. Otherwise you're just shitposting and sharing a scam artist pariah whose been debunked so many times it might make one's head spin.


That fact that I have repeatedly told Tabzer exactly the reasons why I support vaccines and then for them to come to the conclusion that I support it  because of popularity frustrates me.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 29, 2021)

Nice to see that there is still only ONE View that is the correct View....

What about maybe this View ?

_It would be more interesting to research why People have never been infected,even though they have hundreds of contacts on the job every day and hundreds of contacts in public transport. Perhaps there is also Solution !_



But......na........nobody wants to hear that.....


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Nice to see that there is still only ONE View that is the correct View....
> 
> What about maybe this View ?
> 
> ...


I was one of those people. Constant contact with all kinds of different people at my job. And worked during pandemic shut down since my job was essential. Never got covid. But I did wear a mask the whole time. So I've come to the conclusion that was the solution.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 29, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Nice to see that there is still only ONE View that is the correct View....
> 
> What about maybe this View ?
> 
> ...



Because... that isn't particularly helpful on its own? Now, if you actually did a crap-ton of contact tracing, found individuals with multiple contacts with infected people without developing any symptoms, got them to submit to tests, and found that they had been infected and that their antibodies fought it off without damage, MAYBE research into factors such as diet, medications and medical history,  etcettera could be looked into to aide in prevention, but hearsay and anecdotes are worthless and there are proven treatments and measures to counteract the virus right now. 

There is still only one view that is the correct view. Sorry if it isn't convenient enough, but the math on this isn't going to change regardless of how much you'd like it to.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 29, 2021)

If Vaccines are as safe as everyone claims Billionaires do not need blanket liability immunity.  Auto-industry does just fine without a liability waiver killing or maiming a much larger percentage of people than vaccines do.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/...sts-25-billion-in-2021-sales-of-covid-19-shot


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> I was one of those people. Constant contact with all kinds of different people at my job. And worked during pandemic shut down since my job was essential. Never got covid. But I did wear a mask the whole time. So I've come to the conclusion that was the solution.



You said,you wear a Mask and you never got Covid.Very good,Really.
A very nice Example.

Are you now vaccinated ?
For the Example you brought and for the Pro Vaccination Side,the Fact,you can still get Covid (of course with not so hard Symptoms).





DaKitten said:


> There is still only one view that is the correct view. Sorry if it isn't convenient enough, but the math on this isn't going to change regardless of how much you'd like it to.



So one Point if you allow please (and it is nothing against you and your Post,my Friend.).

Would you be so nice and kind @Dakitten and can you please explain me the Logic of Vaccination ALL People with the Example from @SG854 please ?
(I am willing to understand the ONE View....)


I hope I made my Question really clear and with no Offending please.
Thank you.


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Can't be projection if thats not my reason on why I support vaccines.
> 
> You calling me idiot makes me feel nothing considering how bad your arguments are. If you were a better debater then it would have more sting but your like a bee that has no stinger.



Arguing for the sake "herd immunity" but not connected to popularity?  Claiming I'm the one twisting things and "fucking crazy", but saying that I am against vaccines because of "popularity"?

Yes, it is projection on your part.

If you believe in an institution (which lies) and hate whistleblowers, then I can admit that I envy your confidence.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 29, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> So one Point if you allow please (and it is nothing against you and your Post,my Friend.).
> 
> Would you be so nice and kind and can you please explain me the Logic of Vaccination ALL People with the Example from @SG854 please ?
> (I am willing to understand the ONE View....)
> ...



Sure, I'll take a jab at it (yay reusing jokes!) as best I can. The vaccination reduces the chance of catching the virus, with the side benefit of quicker recovery times with less side effects. The end result is more people being immune or at least resistant to the virus and its deviant strains. The fewer times the virus can incubate in people, the less it mutates and the lower the chance of a breakthrough infection, or worse, a variant that can bypass our present vaccination. This also helps to protect those who can't get the vaccine, like children and those with preexisting conditions, who might not die or suffer extreme complications very often, but more often than complications from healthy adults taking the vaccine.



jimbo13 said:


> If Vaccines are as safe as everyone claims Billionaires do not need blanket liability immunity.  Auto-industry does just fine without a liability waiver killing or maiming a much larger percentage of people than vaccines do.
> 
> https://money.usnews.com/investing/...sts-25-billion-in-2021-sales-of-covid-19-shot



Aaaaand now we're back to the krazy konspiracy komedy hour! I'll take Foxi being a bit disingenuous and smug all day every day over this sort of madness. All vaccines have a level of immunity via the vaccine injury compensation fund because usually vaccines aren't literally required to maintain global stability, and thus are not very profitable despite their obvious need, and should anyone hit the vicf, the government then will review the companies because they don't like losing money... hell, didn't I do this dance already? I don't even get the point of the article and statement. Is it saying capitalists in one industry aren't as bad as capitalists in another? Are vaccines and cars supposed to be treated the same? Is this hype for J&J for having a one shot solution?


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

When all is said and done, the only thing important is the bottom line.  Let the plebs make up for it and do the job for free.


----------



## videogamefanatic (Jul 29, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> If Vaccines are as safe as everyone claims Billionaires do not need blanket liability immunity.  Auto-industry does just fine without a liability waiver killing or maiming a much larger percentage of people than vaccines do.
> 
> https://money.usnews.com/investing/...sts-25-billion-in-2021-sales-of-covid-19-shot


You know what? I don't care if I get banned for saying you're a straight up dumbass. Someone has to call it out.

Also, Terry Crews says to get the vaccine. Maybe he'll convince you. https://twitter.com/terrycrews/status/1370056928710303745?s=20


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

videogamefanatic said:


> You know what? I don't care if I get banned for just saying you're a straight up dumbass. Someone has to call it out.



I care if you get banned, and I would hate even more for it to be for no reason.  So at least supply that.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 29, 2021)

videogamefanatic said:


> You know what? I don't care if I get banned for just saying you're a straight up dumbass. Someone has to call it out.
> 
> Also, Terry Crews says to get the vaccine. Maybe he'll convince you. https://twitter.com/terrycrews/status/1370056928710303745?s=20




Not as dumb as supporting blanket liability immunity for a "perfectly safe" product.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Arguing for the sake "herd immunity" but not connected to popularity?  Claiming I'm the one twisting things and "fucking crazy", but saying that I am against vaccines because of "popularity"?
> 
> Yes, it is projection on your part.
> 
> If you believe in an institution (which lies) and hate whistleblowers, then I can admit that I envy your confidence.


There you go again. Associating it with popularity when it has nothing to do with that.

Science has nothing to do with popularity contest. It can't be projection if popularity is not the reason why I support vaccines.



alexander1970 said:


> You said,you wear a Mask and you never got Covid.Very good,Really.
> A very nice Example.
> 
> Are you now vaccinated ?
> ...


I'm fully vaxxed. You can still get covid at a much reduced rate, but if I do get it my body will do a better job fighting it off and less likely to spread it which is the main reason why I got vaxxed, to not spread it to older people.

On the second part did you tag me on accident? You quoted someone else but tagged me.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> On the second part did you tag me on accident? You quoted someone else but tagged me.



Yes,it was an "Accident,I want an Answer from our User @Dakitten

I corrected it,and.......no Answer until now.....


----------



## tabzer (Jul 29, 2021)

SG854 said:


> There you go again. Associating it with popularity when it has nothing to do with that.
> 
> Science has nothing to do with popularity contest. It can't be projection if popularity is not the reason why I support vaccines.



Herd immunity is stapled to popularity.  The projection was you saying that I was twisting things, and then immediately saying a twisted statement--attributing my skepticism of the mrna vaccine to be based on popularity, which was as ironic as was a projection.  If you can't understand that, then it's okay.


----------



## videogamefanatic (Jul 29, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Not as dumb as supporting blanket liability immunity for a "perfectly safe" product.


There are *always* risks involved with anything, so let's talk about them. Most covid related papers are open access. Here's a search term: "covid vaccine side effects papers." Hell, the CDC even keeps track of deaths in the US. 6340 deaths out of 342 million total doses given, 0.0019%, which is 3 orders of magnitude lower than the covid death rate of 1.8%. Some percentage of those vaccine deaths aren't even vaccine deaths since deaths with unclear causes after getting the vaccine must be reported to the tracker.

So, the risk of the vaccine is negligible. 0.0019% is practically a freak accident, and it's also overshooting the actual lower value. It's literally not worth worrying about, and when you get the vaccine they usually have you stay for the like 15 minutes after getting it so that in the very rare chance you *do* get serious side effects, they'll be able to treat it.

More common side effects? Your arm will hurt for a day or two. You'll feel like you have a cold or flu for a day or so, starting around 10 hours after the second dose (sometimes with a low grade fever, sometimes a higher one, but it goes away within a day). And then you'll be fine. Hell, some people get pretty bad side effects (high fever, chills, serious nausea), but after a day they're fine. Much much better than risking catching actual covid and potentially getting hospitalized and put on oxygen IMO. And even if you know you *had* covid, the extra protection provided by taking the vaccine is nothing to sneeze at.

Now, how much protection do the vaccines provide? It's unclear how well the vaccines actually prevents infection (and it'll vary with each variant that sprouts up), but what we *do* know is that they are effective in preventing serious illness, and areas with high vaccination rates have much fewer infections and much much fewer hospitalizations. Pfizer, as a baseline, appears to provide about a 96% protection against hospitalization when a breakthrough infection of the delta variant occurs (the more infectious variant that the vaccine wasn't even made for).

ALL of this data is open to the public. It's at the tips of my fingers on google. Most covid research papers are open access. Not to mention that even the Trump administration realized how serious this pandemic was going to be and paid for the vaccine so you don't have to pay out of pocket (it comes out of taxes, obviously, but it's a lot cheaper than hospitalizations).

EDIT: Oh yeah, speaking of hospitalizations, the cost them is ridiculous. Most insurance plans cover covid hospitalizations (I doubt will last forever, don't freak out if they decide to require vaccination before covering potential covid treatment costs), but the out of pocket costs before any covid-specific amnesty can be like $8000. Hell, even if the jab was $100 I'd still get that over risking such a large expense.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 29, 2021)

videogamefanatic said:


> There are *always* risks involved with anything, so let's talk about them. Most covid related papers are open access. Here's a search term: "covid vaccine side effects papers." Hell, the CDC even keeps track of deaths in the US. 6340 deaths out of 342 million total doses given, 0.0019%, which is 3 orders of magnitude lower than the covid death rate of 1.8%. Some percentage of those vaccine deaths aren't even vaccine deaths since deaths with unclear causes after getting the vaccine must be reported to the tracker.
> 
> So, the risk of the vaccine is negligible. 0.0019% is practically a freak accident, and it's also overshooting the actual lower value. It's literally not worth worrying about, and when you get the vaccine they usually have you stay for the like 15 minutes after getting it so that in the very rare chance you *do* get serious side effects, they'll be able to treat it.
> 
> ...



Then they don't need blanket lawsuit immunity for 0.0019% the courts are perfectly capable of handling these freak incidents.  Those who choose not to get the vaccine have the same information as everyone else and capable of making a decision that is appropriate for them. Behavior from leftist marxist dirt bags which you exhibit is more detrimental to society than Covid and I am not going to do anything to embolden or enable you.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2021)

Anyone on the anti-vax side presented any peer-reviewed evidence yet?


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 29, 2021)

Forgot this.


Lacius said:


> Anecdotally, I personally know people who have hesitancy about the mRNA vaccines who got the J&J vaccine.


Ironically, while I didn't look it, base on how they work, the mRNA one is probably safer. 



Lacius said:


> I also know people who hate shots and wanted something "one and done."


 
While I understand this notion, if I had the choice (and I did), I would get the more effective one, if I'm going be jabbed anyway.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 29, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Anyone on the anti-vax side presented any peer-reviewed evidence yet?



Why anti-vax side ? 

People,who do not like or do not want to get vaccinated are also Humans......


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Why anti-vax side ?
> 
> People,who do not like or do not want to get vaccinated are also Humans......


Because there's actual peer-reviewed research and evidence on the pro-vaccine side. I understand that people who are against vaccines are still people but that doesn't mean they get a free pass for their dangerous beliefs. I respect the hell out of you and view you as a valuable member of this site, so I mean you no disrespect, but unfortunately, I do stand by the fact that the anti-vax movement is dangerous and based on misinformation. So I will continue to ask for evidence to be proven wrong and this evidence needs to be more than a handful of doctors/individuals with unbacked claims. If there is evidence against vaccines, then there should be evidence to back that up.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 29, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Because there's actual peer-reviewed research and evidence on the pro-vaccine side. I understand that people who are against vaccines are still people but that doesn't mean they get a free pass for their dangerous beliefs. I respect the hell out of you and view you as a valuable member of this site, so I mean you no disrespect, but unfortunately, I do stand by the fact that the anti-vax movement is dangerous and based on misinformation. So I will continue to ask for evidence to be proven wrong and this evidence needs to be more than a handful of doctors/individuals with unbacked claims. If there is evidence against vaccines, then there should be evidence to back that up.




What misinformation is that?  You have no idea what information or criteria someone decides not to get vaccinated on, that is the problem with people thinking they know best for someone else.


----------



## videogamefanatic (Jul 29, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> ... Behavior from leftist marxist dirt bags which you exhibit is more detrimental to society than Covid and I am not going to do anything to embolden or enable you.


So you're saying the left-sided behavior (me and other people calling out your bullshit, and I guess vaccine liability protection for the companies) is more detrimental to society than the death 612K people (in the US alone). Right.

You can sue the government over the liability protection if you're that worried about it, but them merely providing that protection doesn't mean the vaccine isn't safe


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 29, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> You have no idea what information or criteria someone decides not to get vaccinated on, that is the problem with people thinking they know best for someone else.



*sigh* Yes,that is the "Point".....but the "Mainstream" will not or want not hear this "Criteria"....
It is sadly not enough,when we (the People who do not want or do not like the Vaccination) decided to still wear the Masks or go still to the Testing or authorized/approved "Self Tests".

NO,the Vaccination People do not want this !

"Vaccine them !! Best through their Brains,because the No Vaccination People are DUMB People !!"


Sounds to me very familiar to the 30/40 Years......but only for me.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> What misinformation is that?  You have no idea what information or criteria someone decides not to get vaccinated on, that is the problem with people thinking they know best for someone else.


The misinformation around vaccines and that it's safe to not get them. As well as trusting a lack of information about that comes from the anti-vax perspective. I am still going to ask, is there evidence to back up the anti-vax side and if so, why hasn't it been presented? Why aren't there any peer-reviewed research papers to back up any of the anti-vax beliefs?
There should be evidence to back up the anti-vax stance, considering how adamant people are about it, why hasn't anyone posted a single shred of creditable evidence?


----------



## videogamefanatic (Jul 29, 2021)

If anyone wants to debate that covid vaccines aren't safe, these are pretty much the only stats you have to work with. It's not much. At all. In fact it's so little that it's not worth worrying about if you plan to take the vaccine.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

"Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare and has occurred in approximately 2 to 5 people per million vaccinated in the United States."
"Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) after Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 vaccination is rare. As of July 26, 2021, more than 13 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 39 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS."
"After more than 13  million J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine doses administered, there have been around 137 preliminary reports of GBS identified in VAERS as of July 22."
"As of July 26, 2021, VAERS has received 1,194 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis among people ages 30 and younger who received COVID-19 vaccine. Most cases have been reported after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), particularly in male adolescents and young adults. Through follow-up, including medical record reviews, CDC and FDA have confirmed 699 reports of myocarditis or pericarditis."
"Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 342 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 26, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,340 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine."

Please realize that without the vaccine, your risk of catching, struggling with, and dying from covid is orders of magnitude higher than the risks from the vaccine itself.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 29, 2021)

videogamefanatic said:


> Please realize that without the vaccine,your risk of catching,struggling with,and dying from covid is orders of magnitude higher than the risks from the vaccine itself.



If you get Covid and have the real hard Symptoms:
THAT is 100 Percent true.


As is well known,long-term Consequences/Phenomena are not yet known.


----------



## RAHelllord (Jul 29, 2021)

Trump himself has said on the CPAC rally (28th Feb if my math is correct) that the vaccine is safe, unpainful, and that everybody should get their shot. If it's good enough for your dear glorious leader it's good enough for you people, too.



alexander1970 said:


> If you get Covid and have the real hard Symptoms:
> THAT is 100 Percent true.View attachment 271547
> 
> As is well known,long-term Consequences/Phenomena are not yet known.



There very likely won't be any because of how the mRNA vaccines work. Once the injected mRNA has been used up the only thing remaining are the natural antibodies your immune system has created. There are no other active parts in the vaccine, the rest is just there to keep the mRNA stable and pristine until it gets injected.

Compare this to the potential longterm effects of covid-19 that we already know about and you're comparing a vaccine that is predictably safe to something that is far less predictable.


----------



## lokomelo (Jul 29, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The misinformation around vaccines and that it's safe to not get them. As well as trusting a lack of information about that comes from the anti-vax perspective. I am still going to ask, is there evidence to back up the anti-vax side and if so, why hasn't it been presented? Why aren't there any peer-reviewed research papers to back up any of the anti-vax beliefs?
> There should be evidence to back up the anti-vax stance, considering how adamant people are about it, why hasn't anyone posted a single shred of creditable evidence?


from wikipedia: 

_*Aichmophobia* (/ˌeɪkməˈfoʊbiə/) is a kind of specific phobia, the morbid fear of sharp things,[1] such as pencils, needles, knives, darts, a pointing finger, or even the sharp end of an umbrella and different sorts of protruding corners or sharp edges in furnitures and building constructions/materials._​30% of my Country's adult population suffer from that, so I believe that an individual with such condition is more likely to grab on theories that back their fear saying that vaccines are not safe, or that the individual decision of not taking the shot will not hurt others.

I'm not saying that people with Aichmophobia are automatically an anti-vaxer, I am saying just that this group is large and probably is susceptible to that kind of theory.

PS.: I know there are also a large group of people who is just far right extremist, and anti vax is in their "package" of dogmas, but I am not talking about this very group right now.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2021)

lokomelo said:


> from wikipedia:
> 
> _*Aichmophobia* (/ˌeɪkməˈfoʊbiə/) is a kind of specific phobia, the morbid fear of sharp things,[1] such as pencils, needles, knives, darts, a pointing finger, or even the sharp end of an umbrella and different sorts of protruding corners or sharp edges in furnitures and building constructions/materials._​30% of my Country's adult population suffer from that, so I believe that an individual with such condition is more likely to grab on theories that back their fear saying that vaccines are not safe, or that the individual decision of not taking the shot will not hurt others.
> 
> ...


I literally suffer from that, I can't get shots or have blood drawn without my wife there to comfort me and keep me distracted the entire time. She's literally seen me throw up from the panic from knowing that I was getting my blood drawn. I still got both my shots and still got my flu shot. The notion that this fear is reason enough to not get one's shot is a piss poor excuse at best. Fear of needles is not an excuse to believe vaccines are harmful, it's not an excuse to not get vaccinated if you aren't suffering from any condition to prevent you from doing so.
My request is still, I want to see some actual research and peer-reviewed papers to back up the anti-vax movements.


----------



## JonhathonBaxster (Jul 29, 2021)

After reading the last few pages I'm left dumbfounded on why anyone would be entertaining the Liberals on this board with regards to whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not. It's my God damned body and I'll put what I want into it. You (the Liberal) have no right to dictate to me what I will or will not put in my body. Period.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 29, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Forgot this.
> 
> Ironically, while I didn't look it, base on how they work, the mRNA one is probably safer.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong. The mRNA vaccines do appear to be both safer and more effective. However, the J&J vaccine is also safe and effective.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



JonhathonBaxster said:


> After reading the last few pages I'm left dumbfounded on why anyone would be entertaining the Liberals on this board with regards to whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not. It's my God damned body and I'll put what I want into it. You (the Liberal) have no right to dictate to me what I will or will not put in my body. Period. Fuck all and fuck you.


Nobody here is forcing you to get vaccinated.

We are acknowledging the safety of the vaccines, the efficacy of the vaccines, the fact that it's in your best interest to get the vaccine if you don't want to contract COVID-19 and potentially suffer serious or long-term effects, and the moral imperative of getting vaccinated when your odds of spreading the disease are higher if you don't get vaccinated.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2021)

JonhathonBaxster said:


> After reading the last few pages I'm left dumbfounded on why anyone would be entertaining the Liberals on this board with regards to whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not. It's my God damned body and I'll put what I want into it. You (the Liberal) have no right to dictate to me what I will or will not put in my body. Period. Fuck all and fuck you.


First, I am not a Liberal.
Second, being asked to provide evidence to back up anti-vax claims isn't forcing anyone to do anything. No one is trying to force you to get a vaccination. People are asking for anti-vaxxors to provide actual evidence to their claims and pointing out the flaws in their beliefs. There's plenty of evidence to show that vaccines are safe and to show the harmful nature of the anti-vax movement. It should be expected of those against vaccines to provide some solid reasons outside pushing paranoid beliefs.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jul 29, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I'll take Foxi being a bit disingenuous and smug all day every day over this sort of madness.


The heck? What do I look like, a punching bag? I am a very sincere man and I'll have you know that I'm precisely as smart (and handsome, and correct) as I claim to be. On top of that, I am a paragon of humility. Ehh, kids these days...


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 29, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> You said,you wear a Mask and you never got Covid.Very good,Really.
> A very nice Example.
> 
> Are you now vaccinated ?
> ...





alexander1970 said:


> Yes,it was an "Accident,I want an Answer from our User @Dakitten
> 
> I corrected it,and.......no Answer until now.....





Dakitten said:


> Sure, I'll take a jab at it (yay reusing jokes!) as best I can. The vaccination reduces the chance of catching the virus, with the side benefit of quicker recovery times with less side effects. The end result is more people being immune or at least resistant to the virus and its deviant strains. The fewer times the virus can incubate in people, the less it mutates and the lower the chance of a breakthrough infection, or worse, a variant that can bypass our present vaccination. This also helps to protect those who can't get the vaccine, like children and those with preexisting conditions, who might not die or suffer extreme complications very often, but more often than complications from healthy adults taking the vaccine.



It was edited a couple minutes after my first post, because you misquoted me and I hadn't seen it at first as a result. Hope that helps clear things up a bit! Though to help you with one of your later posts...



alexander1970 said:


> If you get Covid and have the real hard Symptoms:
> THAT is 100 Percent true.View attachment 271547
> 
> As is well known,long-term Consequences/Phenomena are not yet known.



Its true, there is a chance that taking the vaccine could turn us all into rampaging sexy chad/chadette megamonsters! Or octopi! But in all fairness, there really isn't any likelihood for long term complications based on the science, so there isn't really a good reason not to get it.



JonhathonBaxster said:


> After reading the last few pages I'm left dumbfounded on why anyone would be entertaining the Liberals on this board with regards to whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not. It's my God damned body and I'll put what I want into it. You (the Liberal) have no right to dictate to me what I will or will not put in my body. Period.



Maybe not the liberals, but as the reincarnation of Stalitler the Commie Nazi, I am coming for your unvaccinated blood! Wooooo!

No but seriously, the point EVERYONE has been making is that you don't have to get it, but if you don't, you're being ignorant at best and a jerk at worst.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Herd immunity is stapled to popularity.  The projection was you saying that I was twisting things, and then immediately saying a twisted statement--attributing my skepticism of the mrna vaccine to be based on popularity, which was as ironic as was a projection.  If you can't understand that, then it's okay.


I'll give you this one. Kinda hypocritical though that you say that I twist things when you were the first one that twisted what I originally said which led me to the response I made trying to figure you out.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



JonhathonBaxster said:


> After reading the last few pages I'm left dumbfounded on why anyone would be entertaining the Liberals on this board with regards to whether or not they want to get vaccinated or not. It's my God damned body and I'll put what I want into it. You (the Liberal) have no right to dictate to me what I will or will not put in my body. Period.


Not a political issue. This isn't a liberal or conservative issue. I see many people the lean right that support vaccines.


----------



## Valwinz (Jul 29, 2021)

So if the Vaccine works why are people that took it getting sick with Covid anyway?
a Mayor here that took it and got his 2 shots is right now at the hospital dying and he got vaccinated explain that one


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> So if the Vaccine works why are people that took it getting sick with Covid anyway?
> a Mayor here that took it and got his 2 shots is right now at the hospital dying and he got vaccinated explain that one


Because its not 100%. But % of survival is higher with the vaccine.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 29, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> So if the Vaccine works why are people that took it getting sick with Covid anyway?
> a Mayor here that took it and got his 2 shots is right now at the hospital dying and he got vaccinated explain that one



No problem! You see, no vaccine is 100% effective, as not every person has the same reaction to the vaccine and the virus itself can mutate. Even still, said mayor's survival rate goes up with the vaccination, as is his chance of avoiding long term complications. Furthermore, if more people in his orbit were vaccinated, his chance of having caught it in the first place would go down, too~


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 29, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> So if the Vaccine works why are people that took it getting sick with Covid anyway?
> a Mayor here that took it and got his 2 shots is right now at the hospital dying and he got vaccinated explain that one





Dakitten said:


> Furthermore, if more people in his orbit were vaccinated, his chance of having caught it in the first place would go down, too~



That basically explains it. The vaccine is not to blame, but reluctant people in his circle potentially are, as they're the ones who likely transmitted it to him because they're not protected themselves. Vaccination is a game of numbers, only works if enough people follow it that the spread is slowed enough to protect those for whom it didn't work as intended and those who can't be vaccinated because of underlying health conditions.
Always has been the case, and will always be.


----------



## linuxares (Jul 29, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> So if the Vaccine works why are people that took it getting sick with Covid anyway?
> a Mayor here that took it and got his 2 shots is right now at the hospital dying and he got vaccinated explain that one


The Delta variant. Also the vaccines are 95% effective. Not 100% effective. No vaccine is 100% effective.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 29, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> So if the Vaccine works why are people that took it getting sick with Covid anyway?
> a Mayor here that took it and got his 2 shots is right now at the hospital dying and he got vaccinated explain that one


In the United States, approximately 99.5% of COVID-19 deaths are unvaccinated. The best possible defense against COVID-19, especially death by COVID-19, is the vaccine, despite the fact that it's not 100% effective.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 29, 2021)

Kind of funny since even Biden said if you take the vaccine, you won't catch covid, and yet some vaccinated people get covid. "B-B-B-But that's because more people have to take the vaccine." OK, but from what most people who encourage you to take the vaccine, they sell it to you and make it seem like you won't get covid once you get it, like Biden for example. Yeah, no vaccine is 100% effective, but what some here don't get is that people like Biden are saying if you get the vaccine you're 100% immune, not less likely to get covid but you still can, that's one of the problems. the constant mixed messaging. You have the right to take the shot or not, but don't blame people for not doing so when all this shit isn't even consistent to begin with.


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 29, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Kind of funny since even Biden said if you take the vaccine, you won't catch covid, and yet some vaccinated people get covid. "B-B-B-But that's because more people have to take the vaccine." OK, but from what most people who encourage you to take the vaccine, they sell it to you and make it seem like you won't get covid once you get it, like Biden for example. Yeah, no vaccine is 100% effective, but what some here don't get is that people like Biden are saying if you get the vaccine you're 100% immune, not less likely to get covid but you still can, that's one of the problems. the constant mixed messaging. You have the right to take the shot or not, but don't blame people for not doing so when all this shit isn't even consistent to begin with.



Buddy guy, are you feeling okay? Got a fever? Dizziness? Disorientation? Because Biden has made several statements talking about herd immunity, but I can't recall hearing him say anything implying invincibility to the disease. Even if he had, it doesn't take away from the point folks are making again, and again, and again, and again. You've never got anything to add but the diarrhea spewing from your agape mouth-hole, so please... shut all the fluff up. Got a source? Don't even share it, it doesn't matter. Biden isn't Fauci. Just do everyone a favor and go away.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 29, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Kind of funny since even Biden said if you take the vaccine, you won't catch covid, and yet some vaccinated people get covid. "B-B-B-But that's because more people have to take the vaccine." OK, but from what most people who encourage you to take the vaccine, they sell it to you and make it seem like you won't get covid once you get it, like Biden for example. Yeah, no vaccine is 100% effective, but what some here don't get is that people like Biden are saying if you get the vaccine you're 100% immune, not less likely to get covid but you still can, that's one of the problems. the constant mixed messaging. You have the right to take the shot or not, but don't blame people for not doing so when all this shit isn't even consistent to begin with.


It's generally true that a vaccinated person is very unlikely to contract COVID-19, although the presence of the willfully unvaccinated is increasing that likelihood.

I don't disagree with your nitpick of what Biden said (if he said it), but it's wrong to suggest it's somehow an egregious error.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 29, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Buddy guy, are you feeling okay? Got a fever? Dizziness? Disorientation? Because Biden has made several statements talking about herd immunity, but I can't recall hearing him say anything implying invincibility to the disease. Even if he had, it doesn't take away from the point folks are making again, and again, and again, and again. You've never got anything to add but the diarrhea spewing from your agape mouth-hole, so please... shut all the fluff up. Got a source? Don't even share it, it doesn't matter. Biden isn't Fauci. Just do everyone a favor and go away.



So either some are in denial, or that is a very good Joe Biden video edit. And don't even get me stated on Fauci. He is a dangerous man.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 29, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You have the right to take the shot or not, but don't blame people for not doing so when all this shit isn't even consistent to begin with.


I will blame them for choosing not to get it, just as the doctors and nurses who treat them understand that nobody else is to blame.  In a lot of places, whole hospital staffs are walking off the job with the realization that 98% of new infections come from the unvaccinated, and an even higher percentage of severe cases that require hospitalization.  If you wanna commit suicide that's one thing, but committing it slowly by using coronavirus causes a whole lot of problems for a whole lot of people, many of whom you've never met before.

Full authorization and mandates can't come soon enough.  You can't save everyone from themselves, and I'm sure it'll trigger more attacks from Vanilla ISIS in "protest," but it's the only way we're gonna get anywhere close to herd immunity.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 29, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Kind of funny since even Biden said if you take the vaccine, you won't catch covid, and yet some vaccinated people get covid. "B-B-B-But that's because more people have to take the vaccine." OK, but from what most people who encourage you to take the vaccine, they sell it to you and make it seem like you won't get covid once you get it, like Biden for example. Yeah, no vaccine is 100% effective, but what some here don't get is that people like Biden are saying if you get the vaccine you're 100% immune, not less likely to get covid but you still can, that's one of the problems. the constant mixed messaging. You have the right to take the shot or not, but don't blame people for not doing so when all this shit isn't even consistent to begin with.


The science has been consistent. Immunity is not 100%. And they been saying that since the beginning. People wrongly interpreting the science does not mean the science itself was never consistent. So what you do is correct people on the actually numbers.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 30, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The misinformation around vaccines and that it's safe to not get them. As well as trusting a lack of information about that comes from the anti-vax perspective. I am still going to ask, is there evidence to back up the anti-vax side and if so, why hasn't it been presented? Why aren't there any peer-reviewed research papers to back up any of the anti-vax beliefs?
> There should be evidence to back up the anti-vax stance, considering how adamant people are about it, why hasn't anyone posted a single shred of creditable evidence?



"Safe" is subjective.  What you deem "Safe" doesn't meet my threshold or concerns.  It's as simple as having higher standards than you based on the same information.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 30, 2021)

Safer than letting this virus run rampant.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jul 30, 2021)

The perfect solution fallacy again, had not seen that in like, one page... Why do we even bother with those people, seriously


----------



## ghjfdtg (Jul 30, 2021)

>Implying that anti-vaxxers have higher standards.

You can't make that shit up. It's gold.


----------



## Glyptofane (Jul 30, 2021)

linuxares said:


> The Delta variant. Also the vaccines are 95% effective. Not 100% effective. No vaccine is 100% effective.


According to Israel, Pfizer is 88% effective against hospitalization, 91% against severe illness, but only 39% effective in preventing infection from Delta, which we are now being told presents as the same viral load in vaxxed as unvaxxed, so the very large pool of vaxxed carriers would presumably still be spreading it like wildfire and harboring mutations if any of it anywhere is to be believed.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/del...ective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html


----------



## linuxares (Jul 30, 2021)

Glyptofane said:


> According to Israel, Pfizer is 88% effective against hospitalization, 91% against severe illness, but only 39% effective in preventing infection from Delta, which we are now being told presents as the same viral load in vaxxed as unvaxxed, so the very large pool of vaxxed carriers would presumably still be spreading it like wildfire and harboring mutations if any of it anywhere is to be believed.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/del...ective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html


Yepp, that's why a new booster is coming this fall against the Delta. Both Moderna and Pfizer apparently have it fixed. For sure, that's why so many people as possible should be vaxxed. Since a virus will die out without a host.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 30, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> "Safe" is subjective.  What you deem "Safe" doesn't meet my threshold or concerns.  It's as simple as having higher standards than you based on the same information.


Then provide evidence to counter what I said. You seem to have ignored the part where I asked for evidence to be proven wrong. Why hasn’t anyone on the anti-vax side been able to prove evidence?


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 31, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Then provide evidence to counter what I said. You seem to have ignored the part where I asked for evidence to be proven wrong. Why hasn’t anyone on the anti-vax side been able to prove evidence?



Same reason someone in Beijing can't prove Taiwan is a country.  I don't care if your claims are true or not, has nothing to do with my decision not to get vaxed.

The reasons _*I* _don't get vaxed are true.


1) I am not using a product or services claiming a privilege of blanket indemnity, simplest safety metric in the world is "Will they take responsibility for it?".  No? Well I am not going to trust their product more than they do. 

2) Me and the people I care about continued on working and going about life normally, unaffected by Covid and neither myself or anyone I have concern for has any reasonable metric of risk.  

3) I have no faith or belief in the integrity of this government so anything they claim is presumed to be a lie.  

4) If it involves messaging, promotion, selfie frames, virtue signaling, censorship or any manner of social engineering from Big tech I am doing the opposite.


----------



## Hanafuda (Jul 31, 2021)

Perspective


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 31, 2021)




----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> Perspective


Because hundreds of unvaccinated Americans are dying from the virus daily. In addition, the fact that they're spreading the virus makes it more likely that there will be breakthrough infections among the vaccinated. Finally, spreading the disease makes it more likely new variants will appear that make the vaccines less effective.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



jimbo13 said:


> 2) Me and the people I care about continued on working and going about life normally, unaffected by Covid and neither myself or anyone I have concern for has any reasonable metric of risk.


It's a demonstrable fact that a.) These are the people who are getting seriously sick and dying from the disease, b.) These are the people spreading disease to other people, and c.) These are the people increasing the odds of there being more contagious and/or more deadly variants.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Because hundreds of unvaccinated Americans are dying from the virus daily. In addition, the fact that they're spreading the virus makes it more likely that there will be breakthrough infections among the vaccinated. Finally, spreading the disease makes it more likely new variants will appear that make the vaccines less effective.


And yet it appears the vaccinated people are spreading the disease more than the unvaccinated.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And yet it appears the vaccinated people are spreading the disease more than the unvaccinated.


The evidence shows the opposite.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The evidence shows the opposite.


You mean the totally legit evidence that was probably in no way manipulated at all in order to try to sway people with "truths" and not the "lies of the true numbers"? You're right, I've been wrong this whole time, stupid me.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You mean the totally legit evidence that was probably in no way manipulated at all in order to try to sway people with "truths" and not the "lies of the true numbers"? You're right, I've been wrong this whole time, stupid me.


If you have evidence that vaccinated people are "spreading the disease more than unvaccinated people," or you have any evidence that the presently available scientific studies have been at all "manipulated," I'd be interested to see it.

If you don't have evidence of these things, you're just making stuff up, and nobody should pay attention to you.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's a demonstrable fact that a.) These are the people who are getting seriously sick and dying from the disease,



Amazing how you can come up with an "adjective fact" for people I gave not even the vaguest hint about their age, health or behaviors.

Imagining what's best for others...


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you have evidence that vaccinated people are "spreading the disease more than unvaccinated people," or you have any evidence that the presently available scientific studies have been at all "manipulated," I'd be interested to see it.
> 
> If you don't have evidence of these things, you're just making stuff up, and nobody should pay attention to you.


Did you not see the video I posted or are you an "intellectual" who prefers to read, in which case, here.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc...tts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Amazing how you can come up with an "adjective fact" for people I gave not even the vaguest hint about their age, health or behaviors.
> 
> Imagining what's best for others...



That doesn't matter with regard to my point.
There were two other points.



BitMasterPlus said:


> Did you not see the video I posted or are you an "intellectual" who prefers to read, in which case, here.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc...tts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html



This is not evidence that that the vaccinated are "spreading the disease more than the unvaccinated."
This study is an anecdote.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There were two other points.



Only a point if you care about other people, I don't concern myself with others peoples choices and consequences because it's not my business.

The uptick in home schooling and curtailing travel I consider a boon.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> This is not evidence that that the vaccinated are "spreading the disease more than the unvaccinated."
> This study is an anecdote.


>provides source
>says it doesn't count
So that means I can disregard your and possible others "sources" if I don't agree with them huh? Gotcha.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Only a point if you care about other people, I don't concern myself with others peoples choices and consequences because it's not my business.


You have to not concern yourself with the well being of others and the consequences of your actions when you're willfully increasing the odds of spreading a disease that's killing hundreds of Americans a day.

If you want to increase the odds of spreading disease, that's your right, but as long as we are on the same page that it's because you're unconcerned with the lives of others, so be it.



BitMasterPlus said:


> >provides source
> >says it doesn't count
> So that means I can disregard your and possible others "sources" if I don't agree with them huh? Gotcha.


I'm not disregarding your source. It's an important study. The problem is it doesn't demonstrate what you think it demonstrates. It shows the vaccinated are susceptible to the delta variant, but it does not show that the vaccinated are spreading the disease more than the unvaccinated. It's anecdotal because it tracks a single outbreak. If, for example, there were an outbreak stemming from a wedding, 98% of the guests were vaccinated, and 78% of the infections were amongst the vaccinated, that doesn't mean "vaccinated people spread the disease more than the unvaccinated." It means most of the people who caught the disease were vaccinated because the vast majority of people who could have contracted it were vaccinated.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm not disregarding your source. It's an important study. The problem is it doesn't demonstrate what you think it demonstrates. It shows the vaccinated are susceptible to the delta variant, but it does not show that the vaccinated are spreading the disease more than the unvaccinated. It's anecdotal because it tracks a single outbreak. If, for example, there were an outbreak stemming from a wedding, 98% of the guests were vaccinated, and 78% of the infections were amongst the vaccinated, that doesn't mean "vaccinated people spread the disease more than the unvaccinated."


Actually, it does, unless you want to wait some more to see more vaccinated people spread the disease more then ok.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Actually, it does, unless you want to wait some more to see more vaccinated people spread the disease more then ok.


The study did not claim to show vaccinated people spreading the virus more than unvaccinated people, broadly or anecdotally. It showed, anecdotally, a majority of people catching the disease in a particular outbreak having been vaccinated.


----------



## linuxares (Jul 31, 2021)

This topic has really turned around to "NUH YOU!" kind of arguments.
Made up facts, with little to no proper bearing... if proper source are shown the "losing side" does a "BUT" argument...

Also I see a lot of people don't seem to understand basic understanding of a vaccine and medicine. I would hate to recommend some of them a simple Ibuprofen, if they got a headache.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The study did not claim to show vaccinated people spreading the virus more than unvaccinated people, broadly or anecdotally. It showed, anecdotally, a majority of people catching the disease in a particular outbreak having been vaccinated.


74% vaccinated people spreading the disease vs 26% unvaccinated people. I don't get how it doesn't show that in this case, the vaccinated are spreading the disease more. Not saying that's always the case, but it seems more often than not, vaccinated or not, people will spread the disease, and those who did get vaccinated still spread the disease more than the unvaccinated.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> 74% vaccinated people spreading the disease vs 26% unvaccinated people. I don't get how it doesn't show that in this case, the vaccinated are spreading the disease more. Not saying that's always the case, but it seems more often than not, vaccinated or not, people will spread the disease, and those who did get vaccinated still spread the disease more than the unvaccinated.


The study did not show 74% of those spreading the disease being vaccinated. It showed 74% of new cases in an outbreak being vaccinated. These are two very different things. In other words, the study was about who got it, not who spread it. Again, the study was also anecdotal and focused on a specific outbreak.

The study does show, unfortunately, that the viral loads in vaccinated people who have contracted the disease in a breakthrough infection being the same as those who are unvaccinated and infected. This means that, when you compare a person who is infected and vaccinated and a person who is infected and unvaccinated, they are likely to infect the same number of people when you remove other mitigation factors like masks, physical distancing, etc.


----------



## wartutor (Jul 31, 2021)

Leave this for you all to argue about. Makes since but of course many of the same individuals will still point to government controlled fact checkers and/or defend their never wrong mindset.

ME: CDC, should I get poke if I already had Covid?
CDC: “Yes, you should be poked regardless of whether you already had COVID-19. That’s because experts do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19.”
ME: Oh, okay, we don’t know how long natural immunity lasts. Got it. So, how long does poke-induced immunity last?
CDC: “There is still a lot we are learning about COVID-19 pokes and CDC is constantly reviewing evidence and updating guidance. We don’t know how long protection lasts for those who are poked.”
ME: Okay … but wait a second. I thought you said the reason I need the poke was because we don’t know how long my natural immunity lasts, but it seems like you’re saying we ALSO don’t know how long poke immunity lasts either. So, how exactly is the poke immunity better than my natural immunity?
CDC: …
ME: Uh … alright. But, haven’t there been a bunch of studies suggesting that natural immunity could last for years or decades?
CDC: Yes.
NEWYORKTIMES: “Years, maybe even decades, according to a new study.”
ME: Ah. So natural immunity might last longer than poke immunity?
CDC: Possibly. You never know.
ME: Okay. If I get the poke, does that mean I won’t get sick?
BRITAIN: Nope. We are just now entering a seasonal spike and about half of our infections and hospital admissions are poked people.
ME: CDC, is this true? Are there a lot of people in the U.S. catching Covid after getting the poke?
CDC: We stopped tracking breakthrough cases. We accept voluntary reports of breakthroughs but aren’t out there looking for them.
ME: Does that mean that if someone comes in the hospital with Covid, you don’t track them because they’ve been poked? You only track the UN-poked Covid cases?
CDC: That’s right.
ME: Oh, okay. Hmm. Well, if I can still get sick after I get the poke, how is it helping me?
CDC: We never said you wouldn’t get sick. We said it would reduce your chances of serious illness or death.
ME: Oh, sorry. Alright, exactly how much does it reduce my chance of serious illness or death.
CDC: We don’t know “exactly.”
ME: Oh. Then what’s your best estimate for how much risk reduction there is?
CDC: We don’t know, okay? Next question.
ME: Um, if I’m healthy and don’t want the poke, is there any reason I should get it?
CDC: Yes, for the collective.
ME: How does the collective benefit from me getting poked?
CDC: Because you could spread the virus to someone else who might get sick and die.
ME: Can a poked person spread the virus to someone else?
CDC: Yes.
ME: So if I get poked, I could still spread the virus to someone else?
CDC: Yes.
ME: But I thought you just said, the REASON I should get poked was to prevent me spreading the virus? How does that make sense if I can still catch Covid and spread it after getting the poke?
CDC: Never mind that. The other thing is, if you stay unpoked, there’s a chance the virus could possibly mutate into a strain that escapes the pokes protection, putting all poked people at risk.
ME: So the poke stops the virus from mutating?
CDC: No.
ME: So it can still mutate in poked people?
CDC: Yes.
ME: This seems confusing. If the poke doesn’t stop mutations, and it doesn’t stop infections, then how does me getting poked help prevent a more deadly strain from evolving to escape the poke?
CDC: You aren’t listening, okay? The bottom line is: as long as you are unpoked, you pose a threat to poked people.
ME: But what KIND of threat??
CDC: The threat that they could get a serious case of Covid and possibly die.
ME: My brain hurts. Didn’t you JUST say that the poke doesn’t keep people from catching Covid, but prevents a serious case or dying? Now it seems like you’re saying poked people can still easily die from Covid even after they got the poke just by running into an unpoked person! Which is it??
CDC: That’s it, we’re hanging up now.
ME: Wait! I just want to make sure I understand all this. So, even if I ALREADY had Covid, I should STILL get poked, because we don’t know how long natural immunity lasts, and we also don’t know how long poke immunity lasts. And I should get the poke to keep a poked person from catching Covid from me, but even if I get the poke, I can give it to the poked person anyways. And, the other poked person can still easily catch a serious case of Covid from me and die. Do I have all that right?
…
ME: Um, hello? Is anyone there?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

wartutor said:


> Leave this for you all to argue about. Makes since but of course many of the same individuals will still point to government controlled fact checkers and/or defend their never wrong mindset.
> 
> ME: CDC, should I get poke if I already had Covid?
> CDC: “Yes, you should be poked regardless of whether you already had COVID-19. That’s because experts do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19.”
> ...



We know a lot more about vaccine immunity than we do about natural immunity with regard to COVID-19. Vaccine immunity lasts months to years, depending on the circumstances preceding the vaccine. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03738-2
Citing the same study, vaccine immunity lasts significantly longer if you had contracted COVID-19 before getting vaccinated.
Yes, everyone who can get vaccinated should do so, even if they already had the disease.


----------



## wartutor (Jul 31, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We know a lot more about vaccine immunity than we do about natural immunity with regard to COVID-19. Vaccine immunity lasts months to years, depending on the circumstances preceding the vaccine. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03738-2
> Citing the same study, vaccine immunity lasts significantly longer if you had contracted COVID-19 before getting vaccinated.
> Yes, everyone who can get vaccinated should do so, even if they already had the disease.


The dynamics of antibody-secreting plasmablasts and germinal centre B cells induced by these vaccines in humans remain unclear. Here we examined antigen-specific B cell responses in peripheral blood (_n_ = 41) and draining lymph nodes in 14 individuals who had received 2 doses of BNT162b2, an mRNA-based vaccine that encodes the full-length SARS-CoV-2 spike (_S_) gene1. Circulating IgG- and IgA-secreting plasmablasts that target the S protein peaked one week after the second immunization and then declined, becoming undetectable three weeks later.

From the first paragraph of that article did you even read it. The study is them watching 14 people, way to be precise and accurate. And it was undetectable 3 weeks later?


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

wartutor said:


> The dynamics of antibody-secreting plasmablasts and germinal centre B cells induced by these vaccines in humans remain unclear. Here we examined antigen-specific B cell responses in peripheral blood (_n_ = 41) and draining lymph nodes in 14 individuals who had received 2 doses of BNT162b2, an mRNA-based vaccine that encodes the full-length SARS-CoV-2 spike (_S_) gene1. Circulating IgG- and IgA-secreting plasmablasts that target the S protein peaked one week after the second immunization and then declined, becoming undetectable three weeks later.
> 
> From the first paragraph of that article did you even read it. The study is them watching 14 people, way to be precise and accurate. And it was undetectable 3 weeks later?


I recommend you read the whole study like I did. You're describing a very small section of the experiment. There were more participants than 14, and they measured more than just the three weeks.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 31, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> 74% vaccinated people spreading the disease vs 26% unvaccinated people. I don't get how it doesn't show that in this case, the vaccinated are spreading the disease more. Not saying that's always the case, but it seems more often than not, vaccinated or not, people will spread the disease, and those who did get vaccinated still spread the disease more than the unvaccinated.





BitMasterPlus said:


> 74% vaccinated people spreading the disease vs 26% unvaccinated people. I don't get how it doesn't show that in this case, the vaccinated are spreading the disease more. Not saying that's always the case, but it seems more often than not, vaccinated or not, people will spread the disease, and those who did get vaccinated still spread the disease more than the unvaccinated.


How do you spread it more after vaccinated? That doesn't make sense.

It's almost as if you are saying once you get the vaccine you will be more likely to spread it. That's what more implies. As if the vaccines makes the virus worse.

How do you not sit back and think how stupid this sounds?


Vaccines do not work 100%. You can still get infected. So if 90% of the people at a party were vaccinated. And 10% were unvaccinated. And people got infected. Then of course a study will show the majority of people who got infected were vaccinated there's just more of them. This does not mean vaccinated more likely to spread the virus then unvaccinated. It's basic mathematical odds.


Also nowhere in the article does it say they are more likely to spread it. Read the article headline. It says 74% of people infected were vaccinated. Not 74% who spread the virus were vaccinated.

That article you linked also shows that the vaccines were working as intended because when you read the end it says 97% of new hospitalizations and 99.5% of deaths were unvaccinated. And this is the most important part. You are less likely to die after vaccinated.


The article also says that people hit the hardest by the delta variant are unvaccinated.


How did you walk away from that article thinking what you thought is beyond me.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 31, 2021)

In Austria we Non-Vaccinators are now *OFFICIALLY Terrorists* according due some "Ethic Experts"........

https://www.krone.at/2474360

*"Small group terrorizes the rest of society"
*
Virologists agree: if you don't get vaccinated, sooner or later you will be infected with the coronavirus. There is also a growing need for a vaccination, at least in some areas, to be seriously discussed. Almost 60% of the people in Austria would be in favor of compulsory vaccination in health and care professions. But only there: 70 percent are against a general vaccination requirement. What do we do with the noisy minority who do not want to be vaccinated? Prof. Ursula Köller from the Bioethics Commission in the Federal Chancellery and Prof. Ulrich Körtner from the Institute for Ethics and Law in Medicine at the University of Vienna will discuss this with Damita Pressl this week at “Moment Mal”.

In the vast majority of cases, the vaccination protects against severe Covid-19 courses, against hospitalization, against the intensive care unit or death. Vaccinated people can still get infected with Corona or pass the virus on, even if the probability of this is significantly lower than with unvaccinated people. So it is not a matter of so-called “sterile immunity”, explains Ursula Köller. "That would mean that I cannot get the infection as a vaccinated person". What is certain, however, is that the viral load in vaccinated people is significantly lower.
_
Are a "land of the vaccine muffle"_ 
So the vaccination works. But why then stagnate vaccination numbers? “It also depends on the general attitude towards vaccinations in a country. Unfortunately, Austria is a country that is not vaccinated ”, said Köller. We only have child vaccinations as long as they are included in the mother-child pass. And they are so important: "Vaccinations are the greatest public health measure that has ever existed," says the doctor. Our high life expectancy is mainly due to the fact that there are no longer deaths from infectious diseases in childhood.

Vaccination compulsory privately or by the state? 
So whether a mandatory vaccination would help? “We have far too little secured data,” complains Ulrich Körtner, like many other experts. “But we have evidence. In France, President Macron has announced compulsory vaccination for health professionals. You saw that when this announcement came, the number of vaccinations among health professionals rose significantly in the days that followed. ”In addition, there are already certain obligations:“ Politicians shun the word 'mandatory vaccination' like the devil shuns holy water, but in the private law area we definitely have that ”. Big employers like Google now require their employees to be vaccinated. Airlines and hotels also have the option of only making their offers available to vaccinated people. "We have long had employers' vaccination obligations. At the moment we are only discussing possible government regulations. But we ignore the fact that we otherwise leave that to the private sector, ”says Körtner. "The question is therefore: should politics be content with the fact that vaccination obligations only exist in the private sector, or are there reasons for a state-prescribed vaccination requirement?"

For the two experts, there are at least some areas: the bioethics committee, for example, requires mandatory vaccination in the health sector, from the state. “If the carriers do that, then the staff could switch to another carrier, which is why a general compulsory vaccination in the area would be important,” says Köller. The non-implementation of a compulsory vaccination, said Köller, also leads to a "hostage" for residents in the care area: "How do old people get to spend their last years in detention just because the staff does not get vaccinated?" Who does not want to be vaccinated in such professions, "he missed his job", says Körtner, "as hard as that sounds".

But is a world emerging now where unvaccinated people are only allowed to shop and use public transport? "If we are a little unlucky, the very group drives us back into a lockdown, where all of Austria is only allowed to use public transport and the supermarket," says Köller. _*And Körtner adds: “Small groups terrorize the rest of society. *_Then, as a vaccinated person, I will end up being restricted in my basic rights again because a hard-boiled minority has no sense of community. ”He demands more courage from politicians: to“ move the subject to the private law level ”is cowardly. “You can't ask, 'Why am I being forced to get a driver's license? I just want to drive a car like that. ‘” So the state also sets conditions in other areas for access to certain areas of society.


----------



## SG854 (Jul 31, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Virologists agree: if you don't get vaccinated, sooner or later you will be infected with the coronavirus


I would listen to these virologist's


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 31, 2021)

SG854 said:


> I would listen to these virologist's


Ethic Experts.





SG854 said:


> I would listen to these virologist's



For more than a year in Austria no one thought about the professional group "kindergarten teachers / childcare workers".
They were always open and looked after children, nobody gave a shit about vaccination for these people.
Despite lockdowns, these people were always at risk.Testing for them started in DECEMBER 2020 !!!

And now these people should suddenly be forced to vaccinate........ They didn't even get a thank you for taking care of the children for over a year without a break, nothing with lockdown, apart from the psychological stress ..... great "vaccination strategy" ....

Of course, I also listen to the Experts ...


----------



## SG854 (Jul 31, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Ethic Experts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These anti vaxxers are terrorizing our neighborhoods!


----------



## Dakitten (Jul 31, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Ethic Experts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I... don't understand this. Are you saying that the vaccination for them is akin to a punishment? As a teacher myself, I can say that when covid hit, I said "Nope!" and bounced right the heck back to the government sector for remote or strictly controlled work environments, even after getting vaccinated. That being said, as soon as the vaccination was available, it was a requirement at my present place of employment and nobody fussed a minute for doing so. You work in a position with sensitive populations? You get the shot. You deal with the public? You get the shot. You lie or misrepresent your vaccination status? You're absolutely a threat to your community and are engaging in terrorist-adjacent behavior.

It isn't hard to figure out. Your rights end when they infringe on the rights of others, end of story. If you don't want the jab, stay in seclusion, that's perfectly fine too. Nobody has to get the shot, unless they want to go back out into the world proper. Once covid has gone the way of polio, then we can afford to be lax.


----------



## KingVamp (Jul 31, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Same reason someone in Beijing can't prove Taiwan is a country.  I don't care if your claims are true or not, has nothing to do with my decision not to get vaxed.
> 
> The reasons _*I* _don't get vaxed are true.
> 
> ...



1) Some companies are trying to not take responsibility for not having precautions against the virus. Good luck finding all the products you need to ban. Btw, it is limited, but can still use the CICP to try to get compensation. 

3) Then start voting for people that actually care and want us to catch up to other 1st world countries.  

4)  So, if the government and "Big tech" start saying that jumping out of a plane in high altitude with no gear is a bad idea, you jump? Being actually critical and contrarianism for the sake of it, are two different things. 



jimbo13 said:


> 2) Me and the people I care about continued on working and going about life normally





jimbo13 said:


> The uptick in home schooling and curtailing travel I consider a boon.


Except this isn't normal.



Lacius said:


> You have to not concern yourself with the well being of others and the consequences of your actions when you're willfully increasing the odds of spreading a disease that's killing hundreds of Americans a day.
> 
> If you want to increase the odds of spreading disease, that's your right, but as long as we are on the same page that it's because you're unconcerned with the lives of others, so be it.


He just outright admitted that he doesn't care that a lot people are either getting sick or dying.   Yet somehow the people that do care are the problem.


----------



## The Catboy (Jul 31, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Same reason someone in Beijing can't prove Taiwan is a country.  I don't care if your claims are true or not, has nothing to do with my decision not to get vaxed.
> 
> The reasons _*I* _don't get vaxed are true.
> 
> ...


So you have no sources


----------



## videogamefanatic (Jul 31, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> If you get Covid and have the real hard Symptoms:
> THAT is 100 Percent true.View attachment 271547
> 
> As is well known,long-term Consequences/Phenomena are not yet known.


No, I mean it completely literally. Your chance of dying from covid if you catch it is astronomically higher than risk of serious side effects from the vaccine. There's a reason the world shut down for covid.

The case mortality rate for covid is about 2%. That's an overestimate of course since it only counts confirmed cases of covid (lots of people get it without knowing). The mortality rate of the vaccine is 0.0019%, and that number is relatively accurate (also an overestimate since all deaths soon after vaccination are counted, even those maybe not caused by the vaccine) since we know exactly how many people have been vaccinated as it's all tracked. Still it's a 3 orders of magnitude difference.

Also because of how mRNA vaccines work and are made, there's little to no chance of long term side effects. Anything serious would have been likely to show up within the week or two while you body attack the injection (and we've been testing and monitoring these vaccines for like a year now). Getting covid is still far more risky in terms of death, and other problems since we *know* it can give you shitty months-long side effects (brain fog, lower stamina, etc). And besides, it seems there's a lot of anecdotal evidence that taking the vaccine can actually clear up lingering long-covid symptoms in a lot of people, though that's yet to be well verified (there's at least one study in progress on that, hopefully they have good data soon)

EDIT: accidentally wrote 0.019% and 2 orders of magnitude, when I meant 0.0019% and 3 orders of magnitude. I've since fixed it.


----------



## Valwinz (Jul 31, 2021)

vaccinated people are spreading this themselves  Critically, the study found that vaccinated individuals carried as much virus in their noses as unvaccinated individuals, and that vaccinated people could spread the virus to each other. https://t.co/K6bklLeWnC— The Washington Post (@washingtonpost) July 30, 2021


----------



## SG854 (Jul 31, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> vaccinated people are spreading this themselves  https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1421157906720993284


You're a little late @BitMasterPlus already posted the article and his impression and misinterpretation of the article was already debunked

The article BitMasterPlus also mentions that 97% of new hospitalizations and 99.5% of deaths were unvaccinated.


The article also says that people hit the hardest by the delta variant are unvaccinated.

They may carry as much virus in their nose as unvaccinated but what I typed above shows that the hardest hit are still the unvaccinted. Death prevention is the most important part and the vaccines are working as intended on just the numbers the article mentions.


----------



## jimbo13 (Jul 31, 2021)

SG854 said:


> You're a little late @BitMasterPlus already posted the article and his impression and misinterpretation of the article was already debunked
> 
> The article BitMasterPlus also mentions that 97% of new hospitalizations and 99.5% of deaths were unvaccinated.
> 
> ...




Heard the same characterization on ABC news this morning that it is vaccinated people spreading it, just because Lacius rolls in and throws his two cents in does not mean it is debunked.


----------



## Valwinz (Jul 31, 2021)

SG854 said:


> You're a little late @BitMasterPlus already posted the article and his impression and misinterpretation of the article was already debunked
> 
> The article BitMasterPlus also mentions that 97% of new hospitalizations and 99.5% of deaths were unvaccinated.
> 
> ...


Debunk wow who do I believe GBATEMP user or the scientist saying Vaccinated people are spreading it too


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

There seems to be some misunderstandings in this thread about how the delta variant is affecting vaccinated people. A few quick points about the recently released study and the leaked CDC information:

The information shows that vaccines are approximately 88% effective against contracting the delta variant. Breakthrough infections are still unlikely. The single best way to stop the spread of the delta variant is still vaccination.
However, the study shows that when vaccinated people suffer breakthrough infections, their viral loads are comparable to the viral loads of unvaccinated people who are also infected. This means that a vaccinated person with the delta variant can spread the virus just as much as an unvaccinated person with the delta variant. This was one of the main reasons for the CDC's new guidance on masks.
The study does not show that vaccinated people are spreading the disease more than unvaccinated people. It shows a majority of people who were infected in this outbreak were vaccinated.
The study acknowledges that as the rate of vaccination rises, so too will the proportion of COVID-19 infections being breakthrough infections. We've already seen this in the UK, and it isn't surprising.
The study also shows that, among those who are vaccinated, hospitalizations and deaths from delta were near zero (deaths were literally zero). In fact, this study shows how effective vaccines are at keeping total hospitalizations and total deaths low when vaccination rates are high. In addition to being the best way to stop the spared of the delta variant, the vaccine is also the best way to protect yourself from serious effects of the disease.
TLDR, vaccines are still very effective, and it isn't surprising that in some instances, a majority of new cases will be among people who are vaccinated. The only really surprising and disappointing information is the comparable viral loads between breakthrough infections and unvaccinated infections.



Valwinz said:


> Debunk wow who do I believe GBATEMP user or the scientist saying Vaccinated people are spreading it too


I don't think anybody said recently that vaccinated people weren't spreading the delta variant too.


----------



## DKB (Jul 31, 2021)

I'm wondering if catching covid AND getting the vaccine would boost protection against the delta variant, like in my case. I got the vaccine finally about 2 days ago. (Not like I was paid to do it or anything..)


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

DKB said:


> I'm wondering if catching covid AND getting the vaccine would boost protection against the delta variant, like in my case. I got the vaccine finally about 2 days ago. (Not like I was paid to do it or anything..)


There is preliminary data that people get significantly longer-lasting protection if they previously had COVID-19 before getting one of the mRNA vaccines.

Edit: To be clear, this is not a reason to go out and catch COVID-19 before getting vaccinated. People should get vaccinated as soon as possible, regardless of whether or not they've had COVID-19 and gotten over it.


----------



## Valwinz (Jul 31, 2021)

Would you use a Vaccine that was created in less than a year


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Would you use a Vaccine that was created in less than a year


Most vaccines are created in less than year, and both kinds of COVID-19 vaccines are using technology that is decades old. The difference is the COVID-19 vaccines were released under Emergency Use Authorization in the United States. Although the COVID-19 vaccines underwent rigorous safety and efficacy testing, it means the vaccines were not tested for as long a time.

The great news is, based on the numbers from both the safety and efficacy testing from before EUA and the numbers coming from real-world usage, the vaccines are pretty much guaranteed to receive full FDA approval. The safety and efficacy numbers couldn't be much better.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Jul 31, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Would you use a Vaccine that was created in less than a year







Not even as _*paid*_ "Versuchskaninchen" (Test Object.....)
Fortunately,Millions of People do it for free.....

Hmmm...or not ?

- Free Concerts/Cultural Events/Sportevents Entry as "Inoculation Candy"
- Free Entry for Museums as "Inoculation Candy"
- Free "Food/Snacks" for Sport Events as "Inoculation Candy"
- "Financial" Compensation up to 100 €
........


----------



## SG854 (Jul 31, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Heard the same characterization on ABC news this morning that it is vaccinated people spreading it, just because Lacius rolls in and throws his two cents in does not mean it is debunked.


Spreading but not spreading it more then unvaccinated



Valwinz said:


> Debunk wow who do I believe GBATEMP user or the scientist saying Vaccinated people are spreading it too


In my response to BitMasterPlus I typed that the vaccines weren't 100% effective. I just didn't want to retype or copy and paste that part again since I already said it not that many posts behind yours.

But also numbers shows most hit hard are unvaccinated


----------



## Hanafuda (Jul 31, 2021)

Interesting revelation about that 'massive outbreak in Massachusetts" that the CDC is using to justify their demands for new mandates. It was precipitated by an annual gay fest (orgy of thousands). Which, hey fine, but CDC don't pretend this is average weekend behavior for the 99% of wage slaves across the US.

twitter. com/ peterstaley/status/1421215604481142785


----------



## Lacius (Jul 31, 2021)

For anyone who might be freaking out about the Massachusetts numbers, please remember:

The total number of breakthrough infections in the United States represents approximately 0.08% of fully vaccinated individuals (the percent is probably somewhat higher since vaccinated individuals are more likely to be asymptomatic when suffering a breakthrough infection, and those people are less likely to be tested).
The total number of breakthrough infections in the United States makes up about 0.35% of total infections in the United States (the percent is likely to be somewhat higher for the same reason as above).
You can see this post of mine for more details about the new data regarding breakthrough infections:


Lacius said:


> There seems to be some misunderstandings in this thread about how the delta variant is affecting vaccinated people. A few quick points about the recently released study and the leaked CDC information:
> 
> The information shows that vaccines are approximately 88% effective against contracting the delta variant. Breakthrough infections are still unlikely. The single best way to stop the spread of the delta variant is still vaccination.
> However, the study shows that when vaccinated people suffer breakthrough infections, their viral loads are comparable to the viral loads of unvaccinated people who are also infected. This means that a vaccinated person with the delta variant can spread the virus just as much as an unvaccinated person with the delta variant. This was one of the main reasons for the CDC's new guidance on masks.
> ...


The best way to prevent COVID-19 infections (and severe symptoms) is still vaccination. Anyone who hasn't been vaccinated yet, but can medically do so, should do so as soon as possible.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 1, 2021)

Say no to vaccine passports and mandatory vaccinations.
Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1421462935717781514


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Say no to vaccine passports and mandatory vaccinations.
> https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1421462935717781514


Say "fuck you, get back in your mom's basement" to anti-vaxxers.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 1, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Say "fuck you, get back in your mom's basement" to anti-vaxxers.


So you want people to be force to take something kinda Fascist of you


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> So you want people to be force to take something kinda Fascist of you


I want anti-vaxxers to have to deal with the consequences of their actions.  If they choose to try to keep this pandemic going perpetually, then that carries with it the consequence of limiting your options for interacting with the outside world.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 1, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I want anti-vaxxers to have to deal with the consequences of their actions.  If they choose to try to keep this pandemic going perpetually, then that carries with it the consequence of limiting your options for interacting with the outside world.


is not anti vaxx to be mad about the government forcing you to take something lol


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> is not anti vaxx to be mad about the government forcing you to take something lol


It is anti-vaxx to use that as an excuse for why you aren't willing to do your part in ending this pandemic and helping return things to some semblance of normalcy.


----------



## DKB (Aug 1, 2021)

tfw when anti vaxxers are just fucking massive pussies and won't admit of being scared of* the vax lol


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> is not anti vaxx to be mad about the government forcing you to take something lol


Most people probably aren't being forced by the government to get vaccinated in the United States. If they were, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation about the importance of vaccines.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 1, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> is not anti vaxx to be mad about the government forcing you to take something lol


Did a quick search and didn't find any evidence to say the government is forcing people to get vaccinated. Got any sources to back up this claim of yours?


----------



## linuxares (Aug 1, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Say no to vaccine passports and mandatory vaccinations.
> https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1421462935717781514


Nah, I rather ask anti-vaxxers to be treated like second class citizen if they gonna be a possible cooking pot for diseases.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 1, 2021)

Let the government force people to take it for a virus less deadly than the Spanish Flu
Amazing how people here are ready to tell their right the Cult is deep in here lol


----------



## Gunstorm (Aug 1, 2021)

I received the 1st of astra zeneca, waiting for the Second


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Let the government force people to take it for a virus less deadly than the Spanish Flu
> Amazing how people here are ready to tell their right the Cult is deep in here lol



The government generally isn't forcing people to get the vaccine in the US.
Whether or not the government is forcing anyone to take the vaccine is a separate issue entirely from whether or not people should take the vaccine.
The Spanish Flu was incredibly deadly and is an extremely high bar for dangerousness, and I laughed when you made the comparison. It'd be like me saying tattoos aren't painful because they don't even compare to having my fingernails ripped out. Generally, when someone wants to emphasize how not-dangerous something is, they compare it to something that isn't dangerous.
That all being said, before the vaccine, the mortality rate on average was approximately 1% with COVID-19. If 1% of people when flew in airplanes died, that would be 60,000 people dead per day from flying in airplanes, and you would never fly again.
Among people under the age of 35, the mortality rate is 0.004%. If 0.004% of people who flew on airplanes died, that would be 240 people dead from airplane flights per day, and you would never fly again.
Get vaccinated. It's in your best interest, and it's in the best interest of those around you.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Nah, I rather ask anti-vaxxers to be treated like second class citizen if they gonna be a possible cooking pot for diseases.


True colors showing. Because treating people like second class citizens has always worked so well in history. No conflicts or wars ever arose from that. If you feel threatened by "anti-vaxxers" for not taking this experimental shit, that's your problem. You try to force people, well, the results are not gonna be pretty. But hey, as long as you get your way, what's a few bodies?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> True colors showing. Because treating people like second class citizens has always worked so well in history. No conflicts or wars ever arose from that. If you feel threatened by "anti-vaxxers" for not taking this experimental shit, that's your problem. You try to force people, well, the results are not gonna be pretty. But hey, as long as you get your way, what's a few bodies?


I don't think @linuxares is talking about mistreating anyone. The point is that, for the safety of people broadly, unvaccinated people are going to be required to engage in more COVID-19 mitigation strategies like mask-wearing, etc. because they are willfully allowing themselves to be likelier disease vectors. 

There was nothing wrong with their statement. I'm in full agreement.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I don't think @linuxares is talking about mistreating anyone. The point is that, for the safety of people broadly, unvaccinated people are going to be required to engage in more COVID-19 mitigation strategies like mask-wearing, etc. because they are willfully allowing themselves to be likelier disease vectors.
> 
> There was nothing wrong with their statement. I'm in full agreement.


Maybe if the disease had all your limbs fall off and bleed from every orifice from your body then it'd be a different story, but for a disease you have a 99.9% chance of survival rate unless you're really old or unhealthy like obesity or have 24 other diseases with it, then I suggest to suck it up and deal with people's decisions, since it's not your choice to tell anyone what to do.

I'm not telling anyone to take or not take the vaccine, I only advocate for a persons right to choose.


----------



## JonhathonBaxster (Aug 1, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Maybe if the disease had all your limbs fall off and bleed from every orifice from your body then it'd be a different story, but for a disease you have a 99.9% chance of survival rate unless you're really old or unhealthy like obesity or have 24 other diseases with it, then I suggest to suck it up and deal with people's decisions, since it's not your choice to tell anyone what to do.
> 
> I'm not telling anyone to take or not take the vaccine, I only advocate for a persons right to choose.



I got the vaccine, but I'm only sharing that because I want to. I fully believe that if you don't want the vaccine or don't want to share your personal health choices with others that you shouldn't be forced to do so. COVID-19 isn't that deadly and now that we have the vaccines its even less deadly. These entire delta variant scare tactics from the main stream media aren't working either. After four years of lies against Trump and conservatives anyone who would not realize how fake the media is and trust what they report would be a fucking moron.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Maybe if the disease had all your limbs fall off and bleed from every orifice from your body then it'd be a different story, but for a disease you have a 99.9% chance of survival rate unless you're really old or unhealthy like obesity or have 24 other diseases with it, then I suggest to suck it up and deal with people's decisions, since it's not your choice to tell anyone what to do.
> 
> I'm not telling anyone to take or not take the vaccine, I only advocate for a persons right to choose.


I haven't advocated against a person's right to choose. I'm acknowledging that the vaccines are safe and effective, it's in a person's best interest to get vaccinated, and there's a moral imperative to get vaccinated if you care about the lives of others.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I haven't advocated against a person's right to choose. I'm acknowledging that the vaccines are safe and effective, it's in a person's best interest to get vaccinated, and there's a moral imperative to get vaccinated if you care about the lives of others.


No one cares about what you think your or anyone's "moral imperative" is. At the end of the day, it's a person's choice, and you or I are no doctors to tell people what to do.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

JonhathonBaxster said:


> I got the vaccine, but I'm only sharing that because I want to. I fully believe that if you don't want the vaccine or don't want to share your personal health choices with others that you shouldn't be forced to do so. COVID-19 isn't that deadly and now that we have the vaccines its even less deadly. These entire delta variant scare tactics from the main stream media aren't working either. After four years of lies against Trump and conservatives anyone who would not realize how fake the media is and trust what they report would be a fucking moron.


COVID-19 is a deadly disease. It has killed 614,000 Americans so far.

What "lies" about the former president are you referring to? I have a hunch they aren't actually lies.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



BitMasterPlus said:


> No one cares about what you think your or anyone's "moral imperative" is. At the end of the day, it's a person's choice, and you or I are no doctors to tell people what to do.


I didn't say it wasn't a person's choice, but that does not mean there isn't a moral imperative. If we agree that human lives matter, and we agree about the scientific facts regarding COVID-19 and the vaccines, then you necessarily agree there's a moral imperative to get vaccinated.


----------



## Kurt91 (Aug 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Nah, I rather ask anti-vaxxers to be treated like second class citizen if they gonna be a possible cooking pot for diseases.


I'd rather not go with the "second-class citizen" line of thinking for this. I personally don't want to get the vaccine, but mainly because I already have a weakened immune system from cancer treatment, and I'm not 100% certain I'd survive the side-effects of the vaccine. My family even asked the doctor about it, and he said getting the vaccine in my case was a terrible idea.

I'd rather not be treated as a "second-class citizen" because I don't feel like dying right away, thank you very much. I still have some things I'd like to accomplish in my life.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I haven't advocated against a person's right to choose. I'm acknowledging that the vaccines are safe and effective, it's in a person's best interest to get vaccinated, and there's a moral imperative to get vaccinated if you care about the lives of others.


It doesn’t matter what anyone says, anti-vaxxors are just gonna take it as a personal attack because they are being asked to two things; care about people and use their brain.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 1, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> No one cares about what you think your or anyone's "moral imperative" is. At the end of the day, it's a person's choice, and you or I are no doctors to tell people what to do.



Oh fluff, we finally got through to BMP! Doctors ARE in a nearly absolutely unanimous decision telling you the best thing to do is to get the vaccine! Congrats on finally seeing the other side!

Also, moral people care about moral imperatives. ¬.¬
Kinda don't really need to elaborate much on that one.



Kurt91 said:


> I'd rather not go with the "second-class citizen" line of thinking for this. I personally don't want to get the vaccine, but mainly because I already have a weakened immune system from cancer treatment, and I'm not 100% certain I'd survive the side-effects of the vaccine. My family even asked the doctor about it, and he said getting the vaccine in my case was a terrible idea.
> 
> I'd rather not be treated as a "second-class citizen" because I don't feel like dying right away, thank you very much. I still have some things I'd like to accomplish in my life.



It is unfortunate, but your condition means you have more to worry about when going outside. Sucks, but the more other people get vaccinated, the sooner you can stop worrying about it too! If anything, this is more reason for you to promote vaccination and seclude yourself from folk as much as possible, once the disease largely dies off you don't have as much to worry about threatening your life!


----------



## Alexander1970 (Aug 1, 2021)

Nice:

- Anti Vaxxers
- Vaccine Refusers
- People who do not like/want to get vaccinated
- Conspiracy theorists / practitioners
- ....

Now all thrown in the one and the same "Group".All Equal and all the Same in their point of Views.


So we should do the same with

- Gays
- Lesbians
- Bi-sexual
- Trans-sexual
- Inter and Queer people
- .....

Throw them in one Group and say they are equal in their Orientation and all is the same,no Difference in their Point of Views.....
Good Luck and have Fun.....

Very advanced.....


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 1, 2021)

Your comparison does not apply, one of those two groups is actually being dangerous to society as a whole for allowing the continued propagation and mutation of a disease that has already rendered our healthcare systems unusable several times in less than two years. The other is not spreading anything bad, and is actually being killed by some assholes just because they want to kill someone.
If you could compare comparable things, and stop being stupid about it, that would be great.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

alexander1970 said:


> Nice:
> 
> - Anti Vaxxers
> - Vaccine Refusers
> ...


At this point, aren't they the same?


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 1, 2021)

No one here is calling people anti-vax for literally not being able to take the vaccine and I doubt many, if at all, in general are saying that.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 1, 2021)

Kurt91 said:


> I'd rather not go with the "second-class citizen" line of thinking for this. I personally don't want to get the vaccine, but mainly because I already have a weakened immune system from cancer treatment, and I'm not 100% certain I'd survive the side-effects of the vaccine. My family even asked the doctor about it, and he said getting the vaccine in my case was a terrible idea.
> 
> I'd rather not be treated as a "second-class citizen" because I don't feel like dying right away, thank you very much. I still have some things I'd like to accomplish in my life.


Thats however is a medicinal reason. Not a "I don't wanna" reason. Therefore you would fall in the same exception of those who can't take the vaccine because of allergies.

I mean people that don't take the vaccine because of selfish and conspiratorial reasons.


----------



## Kurt91 (Aug 1, 2021)

EDIT: Shitty connection on my end lost my post, then put it up only after I retyped it. Ignore this post.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Aug 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Thats however is a medicinal reason. Not a "I don't wanna" reason. Therefore you would fall in the same exception of those who can't take the vaccine because of allergies.
> 
> I mean people that don't take the vaccine because of selfish and conspiratorial reasons.



Aha,yes of course THAT is an exception Reason......these before this poor People the Virus makes a big Curve and spare them....

If he (excuse me please, @Kurt91,I have really Compassion for you and your really hard Life Situation.....) has Covid and he his not vaccinated and "spread" it in his Neighborhood,of Course,THAT is an other Reason.....Man,I do not belief it.....

Wow.....really....wow......Thank you,no more Information needed about the 2 Class Society...really....

alexander1970 out of this senseless Discusson.


----------



## Kurt91 (Aug 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Thats however is a medicinal reason. Not a "I don't wanna" reason. Therefore you would fall in the same exception of those who can't take the vaccine because of allergies.
> 
> I mean people that don't take the vaccine because of selfish and conspiratorial reasons.



The problem is, how are you supposed to tell the difference? In many cases, including mine, a written medical exception is not always possible. In my case, I live in a very small town in the middle of nowhere, with only one hospital. They pretty much turn you away unless it’s an immediate life-or-death emergency.

Anybody who’s gotten shingles can tell you that you need to get treatment within the first few days of it initially showing up to avoid permanent life-long issues. My mother got shingles, and still couldn’t get a doctor’s appointment for weeks. By the time she was able to get looked at, the doctor was horrified and said that they were so bad, he’d only ever seen something like that in medical books back in college. They had to put her on multiple rounds of the strongest medication possible, and it still didn’t fully clear up, and my mother is going to have life-long complications because of it.

So, back to my original point, how are you going to prevent people in situations like mine from getting caught in the crossfire and becoming “second-class citizens, to use your own words?


----------



## DKB (Aug 1, 2021)

Kurt91 said:


> So, back to my original point, how are you going to prevent people in situations like mine from getting caught in the crossfire and becoming “second-class citizens, to use your own words?



Unfortunately, probably no way. The government might just tell people who truly can't get vaccine for whatever reason to go fuck themselves, and be a second-class citizen. Unless you can absolutely prove it. But, some people can't, for whatever reason that may be.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 1, 2021)

Kurt91 said:


> The problem is, how are you supposed to tell the difference? In many cases, including mine, a written medical exception is not always possible. In my case, I live in a very small town in the middle of nowhere, with only one hospital. They pretty much turn you away unless it’s an immediate life-or-death emergency.


Super easy. You just get one of those vaccine passes and the reason is medical. Not a big deal :3


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Super easy. You just get one of those vaccine passes and the reason is medical. Not a big deal :3



Fortunately no one outside of the fringe is going to tolerate medical segregation anymore than racial.

Worst case scenario is some private industry able to push this garbage and people will "find religion" which has already been held up countless times as a legal exemption.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Fortunately no one outside of the fringe is going to tolerate medical segregation anymore than racial.
> 
> Worst case scenario is some private industry able to push this garbage and people will "find religion" which has already been held up countless times as a legal exemption.


There is also precedent for what you call "medical segregation" regarding vaccinations. Schools generally require vaccinations.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> There is also precedent for what you call "medical segregation" regarding vaccinations. Schools generally require vaccinations.



And as someone who has lived all over the country religious and philosophical exemptions are broad, it's one signature no questions asked and has decades of supreme court rulings behind it.,


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> And as someone who has lived all over the country religious and philosophical exemptions are broad, it's one signature no questions asked and has decades of supreme court rulings behind it.,


Are you arguing that people should lie in order to obtain religious exemptions?


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Are you arguing that people should lie in order to obtain religious exemptions?



If they happen to be in a state without a philosophical exemption or at a buffet with children over 12 and want the discount.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> If they happen to be in a state without a philosophical exemption or at a buffet with children over 12 and want the discount.


Golly, if fraud is rampant, and if people like you are advocating for fraud, maybe we should make vaccine exemptions more restrictive.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Golly, if fraud is rampant, and if people like you are advocating for fraud, maybe we should make vaccine exemptions more restrictive.



That's hilarious, Progressives demanding ID, legal paperwork and telling people what they can identify as....  

When that happens we wont even have Covid because the Unicorns that fly out of my ass will have cured it.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> If they happen to be in a state without a philosophical exemption or at a buffet with children over 12 and want the discount.


Why not just get the shot instead of going through hoops to avoid getting it? Faking a religious exception just to avoid getting vaccinated is absurdly stupid. Admittedly, anti-vaxxors the kinds of people to go through stupid hoop just to avoid getting vaccinated.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> That's hilarious, Progressives demanding ID, legal paperwork and telling people what they can identify as....
> 
> When that happens we wont even have Covid because the Unicorns that fly out of my ass will have cured it.


You seem to have missed my point entirely.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You seem to have missed my point entirely.


Always remember that Jimbo either misquotes, adds new topics, or just makes shit up. It’s an obvious tactic that he uses in an attempt to the conversation


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You seem to have missed my point entirely.



You seemed to of missed the last 3 decades if you think any manner of "vaccine mandates" could be enforced.  There will always be loop holes the size of the open border to walk right thru.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> You seemed to of missed the last 3 decades if you think any manner of "vaccine mandates" could be enforced.  There will always be loop holes the size of the open border to walk right thru.


Lol, I like how you created that scenario and now you are protecting it onto others. Typical jimbo, just making shit up to be mad about it


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Lol, I like how you created that scenario and now you are protecting it onto others. Typical jimbo, just making shit up to be mad about it



You typo a lot when your triggered. 

I am not creating a scenario, the scenario where I continue to ignore, mock and take exemptions when necessary for any type of vax ordinance, requirements or mandates already exists.

As someone who has no vaccinations of any kind I am well aware of what exists.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> You typo a lot when your triggered.


You seem to make petty comments about people's typos when you're triggered.



jimbo13 said:


> As someone who has no vaccinations of any kind I am well aware of what exists.


I'd be pretty embarrassed by this if I were you. It shows you're anti-vax, anti-science, anti-health, and anti-people.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> You typo a lot when your triggered.
> 
> I am not creating a scenario, the scenario where I continue to ignore, mock and take exemptions when necessary for any type of vax ordinance, requirements or mandates already exists.
> 
> As someone who has no vaccinations of any kind I am well aware of what exists.


English isn’t my native language and I still make a lot of mistakes when trusting my autocorrect to fix those mistakes. That being said, you still haven’t provided any sources for any of your claims and you have been making up scenarios as means to distract people away from your initial claims. Pointing out my typo is just another example of you trying to control the conversation because you don’t have sources, you just have imaginary scenarios and your massively inflated ego.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

You're in no position to make comments about typos when your own messages are full of them, Jim.


----------



## Kurt91 (Aug 2, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Super easy. You just get one of those vaccine passes and the reason is medical. Not a big deal :3


I’m on a phone with crappy signal, so forgive me for not wanting to type the entire thing out again, but my original post is only a couple posts back.

Anyways, did you miss the point about the situation where getting a hold of a doctor can be all but impossible? How am I supposed to get a medical exception without access to the doctor to get him to write one?


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 2, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Would you use a Vaccine that was created in less than a year


Okay I am so done hearing this "it's rushed! I'm not taking it" 
It's not rushed, the process to approve it was done differently.
Instead of waterfall, the traditional old style, where you take one step at a time. Instead they did multiple approval and testing steps at once since we need the vaccine.
Now shut the hell up, and get the damn vaccine. You want to know why mask mandates are coming back? Because your dumbasses aren't getting a vaccine, which leads to the virus mutating, and invetibly speaking, making the rest of us, who already did our job, have to go do shit all over again possibly.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 2, 2021)

Cry and reeeee all you want, you will never force people to do what you want them to do just because you "think" it's right. Even if some reasons are "selfish and conspiratorial", it's still their reasons and choice, and you can't do jack shit to change it.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

Somehow I wish that virus was more deadly, yet less mutating, just to fuck you guys that are holding us back from going back to our normal lives.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 2, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Somehow I wish that virus was more deadly, yet less mutating, just to fuck you guys that are holding us back from going back to our normal lives.


Well that's reasonable, wishing for a more deadly virus just to force people to do what you want. True colors of people keep getting shown here. Also kinda counterproductive since you want more people to take the vaccine to beat the virus, yet you wish it was more deadly and more people got it so you can force people to go along with your line of thinking. We're at the point where logic is leaving us slowly now.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> just because you "think"


That is very much a thing we do


BitMasterPlus said:


> Well that's reasonable, wishing for a more deadly virus just to force people to do what you want. True colors of people keep getting shown here. Also kinda counterproductive since you want more people to take the vaccine to beat the virus, yet you wish it was more deadly and more people got it so you can force people to go along with your line of thinking. We're at the point where logic is leaving us slowly now.


By what means are people trying to “force” you do anything? How is pointing out the flaws with anti-vax and asking for sources “forcing” anyone? Are you really that insecure in your belief that being asked to critically think about about it that harmful?


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 2, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Well that's reasonable, wishing for a more deadly virus just to force people to do what you want. True colors of people keep getting shown here. Also kinda counterproductive since you want more people to take the vaccine to beat the virus, yet you wish it was more deadly and more people got it so you can force people to go along with your line of thinking. We're at the point where logic is leaving us slowly now.


You're not  in the position to criticize logic here. They are reasonably upset at this point. They are sick and tired of having their lives fucked over, because selfish, stupid, unreasonable people such as you, keep ruining that chance to go back to normal. If you don't get a vaccine (when applicable, as there are people who genuinely can't for immune disorder reasons.) don't mask up if you don't have a vaccine, you are actively preventing people from going back to normal, actively harming those who have a immune disorder, those who have been dealing with the mask mandate, as NONE of us want it. Making the rest who is doing their job, only have to be burdened with it longer.
forcing us to get possibly a third booster shot because your dumbasses are spreading covid 19, mutating it, wearing no mask, not caring about other's peoples lives, so, I can see @RocaBOT logic here.
You have a blatant disregard for other people's lives, you don't wear a mask, you don't get a vaccine, you are responsible for the death of your peers at that point and the people you pass by. So, at some point, people want to call a hell marry and wish that those who are being so blatantly disrespectful to other people's desire to live and have happiness because "muh opinion" that they might just start wishing death on you.
They are sick and tired of your bullshit stance, sick and tired of your misinformation.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 2, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That is very much a thing we do


Let's agree to disagree on that.



> By what means are people trying to “force” you do anything? How is pointing out the flaws with anti-vax and asking for sources “forcing” anyone? Are you really that insecure in your belief that being asked to critically think about about it that harmful?


You and others have this passive-aggresive tone when it comes to anyone who's hesitant to take the vaccine, "Yeah you don't have to take it, but just know that you're killing people because of it" and some wishing people should be forced to take it. I'm not insecure about anything, as I stated before, I only advocate the right to choose to take the vaccine or not. You don't see me saying to those who take the vaccine, "Lol look at those loser sheep taking untested drugs from the government and pharmaceuticals", I don't care who takes it or not, it's your choice either way and doesn't bother me, what does bother me is people judging others on their personal choice and business it all.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Reual said:


> You're not  in the position to criticize logic here. They are reasonably upset at this point. They are sick and tired of having their lives fucked over, because selfish, stupid, unreasonable people such as you, keep ruining that chance to go back to normal. If you don't get a vaccine (when applicable, as there are people who genuinely can't for immune disorder reasons.) don't mask up if you don't have a vaccine, you are actively preventing people from going back to normal, actively harming those who have a immune disorder, those who have been dealing with the mask mandate, as NONE of us want it. Making the rest who is doing their job, only have to be burdened with it longer.
> forcing us to get possibly a third booster shot because your dumbasses are spreading covid 19, wearing no mask, not caring about other's peoples lives, so, I can see @RocaBOT logic here.
> You have a blatant disregard for other people's lives, you don't wear a mask, you don't get a vaccine, you are responsible for the death of your peers at that point and the people you pass by. So, at some point, people want to call a hell marry and wish that those who are being so blatantly disrespectful to other people's desire to live and have happiness because "muh opinion" that they might just start wishing death on you.
> They are sick and tired of your bullshit stance, sick and tired of your misinformation.


You just enforce my point. And some call _me _a horrible person yet people like you want to force others do take something against their will because you think, as in your goddamn opinion, that this is what's best for them? Fuck you man. Keep your head in your ass for all I care. You will never force people under your ideological rule like it's Nazi Germany or something. And I guess the "My body. My choice" only applies to killing babies and not taking vaccines. We're done here.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 2, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> You just enforce my point. And some call _me _a horrible person yet people like you want to force others do take something against their will because you think


You are actively killing people, THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THAT.



I don't care what the hell you think when you are blatantly disregarding other people's lives. Not getting a vaccine, not wearing a mask, is actively killing people. It's the damn reason the delta variant now exists.

I am going to make an extreme comparison but it works, you don't respect the opinion of a nazi who wants to kill jews. You simply don't. You actively condemn it, you call them a monster, a horrible person.
Okay, now let's look at your stance, your not taking the vaccine, your not wearing a mask. you are killing people who cannot defend themsevles (immune deficent) harming those who want to go to normal, since it's now further delayed, harming people with the intense side effects of covid who catch it from you, killing some of those who do catch it. You are actively killing people, your feelings don't matter on this, your opinion doesn't matter on this, because the facts say that take the godamn fucking vaccine so less people die goddammit.





BitMasterPlus said:


> You will never force people under your ideological rule like it's Nazi Germany or something.


there's no idealogy here, unless your seriously telling me that killing people,actively harm them because "muh opinion" is right.  Because that is what you're actively doing.
Science has shown that vaccines are effective, science has shown strains of viruses will mutate if left unchecked, and with a virus like this, as dangerous as it is, as it's now the second leading cause of death in the United States. We cannot possibly care about what your opinion is. The data and evidence is there that the vaccine is safe, that it can help prevent cases of covid. and that's all it is, a large numbers game, which you are actively preventing that number from going down. The lower the case total gets, the more vaccinated people there are, the closer we get to the win objective, which is to neutralize covid




No one can force you to take the vaccine, but the rest of us are going to continue to make our voices heard that you are actively hurting the rest of person-kind by not taking it. You are harming the rest of us, those who want to get to normal.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Let's agree to disagree on that.
> 
> 
> You and others have this passive-aggresive tone when it comes to anyone who's hesitant to take the vaccine, "Yeah you don't have to take it, but just know that you're killing people because of it" and some wishing people should be forced to take it. I'm not insecure about anything, as I stated before, I only advocate the right to choose to take the vaccine or not. You don't see me saying to those who take the vaccine, "Lol look at those loser sheep taking untested drugs from the government and pharmaceuticals", I don't care who takes it or not, it's your choice either way and doesn't bother me, what does bother me is people judging others on their personal choice and business it all.
> ...


I am not reading of most this because I know for a fact that you are wrong in whatever you are going on about. Anti-vaxxors kill people with their ignorance, they don’t deserve to be respected. Worst of all, is how you pretend to be victims in all of this when in reality, you are people too stupid and selfish to realize the harm you are committing to others. I can see some bits and simply put, this isn’t about arguing different opinions, anti-vaxxors are simply wrong, period. There is no debate to be had here. There is no evidence to back up any of the bullshit reasons to be against vaccines, there’s only been dangerous morons with victim complexes and gross ignorance of science.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 2, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Let's agree to disagree on that.
> 
> 
> You and others have this passive-aggresive tone when it comes to anyone who's hesitant to take the vaccine, "Yeah you don't have to take it, but just know that you're killing people because of it" and some wishing people should be forced to take it. I'm not insecure about anything, as I stated before, I only advocate the right to choose to take the vaccine or not. You don't see me saying to those who take the vaccine, "Lol look at those loser sheep taking untested drugs from the government and pharmaceuticals", I don't care who takes it or not, it's your choice either way and doesn't bother me, what does bother me is people judging others on their personal choice and business it all.
> ...



There hasn't been any discussion on this particular thread for days. BitMaster has no intention of engaging in debate, only stubbornly clinging to the idea that his bodily autonomy supersedes the freedoms of everyone else. In other threads, he's literally been crying things such as "we shall be silent no longer!" and "one more step, man, and it'll be civil war!" At best, this behavior is childish edgelord howling into the dark, but at worst this is prelude to some level of violence. Either way... yeah, sounds like a horrible person, but every moment is a chance to change.

I call people comrade because everyone CAN be a comrade, if they only reach out for it. I don't doubt he has many of the same concerns as everyone else, he just doesn't know how to do basic things, like empathize with others, consider long term social policies and ramifications, or... read. We should all turn down the anger and remember that this is a video game site, and sometimes kids genuinely are not yet ready to behave as adults.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

Points out that their logic is flawed by showing its limits if the thing became more deadly (big cosmic brains spoiler time: it will), gets called out for "forcing" people? Where did I mention forcing anyone? I'm just pointing that by simple logic and math, either you guys would have been more reasonable if it was more deadly and you'd protect yourselves, or you wouldn't and you'd just die from it. Either way, the disease would die out by itself without causing years more of trouble, like it's headed to right now because of shitheads like you, bmp.


----------



## RyanfromWork (Aug 2, 2021)

sheeple will be sheeple


----------



## DoubleDate (Aug 2, 2021)

Sadly i do believe that a more dominant mutation will come out in the upcoming months due to the selfish people who are putting others at risk because they refuse to take the vaccine causing the virus to go into a harder mutation.

If we all just cooperated from the beginning and not listening to all the conspiracies things that come forth from every disaster events, we might be in a very different position than we are now. People are just too selfish and think that the "Goverment" wants to murder them all. If the Goverment trully wanted to eradicate as many humans as possible, believe me we wouldn't all be here, they could just release a manufactered deadly virus into the air untreceable and we all would fall like domino stones. There are many ways that could take many people out if they wanted. Like others have said, its selfish not to take the vaccine, as it meant to stop the virus but instead it will mutate by all the naysayers that in the end will bring only more hurt than good.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 2, 2021)

It is not just the vaccine, they are literally against anything that's trying to get this virus under control, yet trying to claim they are pro-life.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> It is not just the vaccine, they are literally against anything that's trying to get this virus under control, yet trying to claim they are pro-life.



"They" lol, there is just as many all-natural crazy anti-vaxxers on the left.

And your not going to control a virus, you can't stop the common cold let alone this crap the Chinese let out of a lab.

The Vaccines are doing jack and shit, they aren't going to look seriously at treatments unless pharma can make a few billion dollars and politicians can exploit nonsense to increase their power.

Your damn right were not going to be controlled.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

Nobody said it was a "left-vs-right" thing. It's by far the opposite actually. Care not to bring your dividing politics that have nothing to do in this discussion in a thread that's already quite divided by the stupidity of some that put everyone at risk?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 2, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am not reading of most this because I know for a fact that you are wrong in whatever you are going on about. Anti-vaxxors kill people with their ignorance, they don’t deserve to be respected. Worst of all, is how you pretend to be victims in all of this when in reality, you are people too stupid and selfish to realize the harm you are committing to others. I can see some bits and simply put, this isn’t about arguing different opinions, anti-vaxxors are simply wrong, period. There is no debate to be had here. There is no evidence to back up any of the bullshit reasons to be against vaccines, there’s only been dangerous morons with victim complexes and gross ignorance of science.


K I won't read any of your shit either and just perceive you as you are, a dumbass as well lol


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> K I won't read any of your shit either and just perceive you as you are, a dumbass as well lol


I am glad you still can’t provide any evidence to back up your position and you will ignore my posts. It still doesn’t change the fact that you have no evidence backing up your moronic beliefs nor has any of the anti-vaccines members in this thread provided any evidence for their bullshit beliefs.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

DoubleDate said:


> Sadly i do believe that a more dominant mutation will come out in the upcoming months due to the selfish people who are putting others at risk because they refuse to take the vaccine causing the virus to go into a harder mutation.
> 
> If we all just cooperated from the beginning and not listening to all the conspiracies things that come forth from every disaster events, we might be in a very different position than we are now. People are just too selfish and think that the "Goverment" wants to murder them all. If the Goverment trully wanted to eradicate as many humans as possible, believe me we wouldn't all be here, they could just release a manufactered deadly virus into the air untreceable and we all would fall like domino stones. There are many ways that could take many people out if they wanted. Like others have said, its selfish not to take the vaccine, as it meant to stop the virus but instead it will mutate by all the naysayers that in the end will bring only more hurt than good.


Like you said, the big governments would not even need to go that far if they wanted to do us actual physical harm. Most of them can just press a button to erase most countries from the surface of the planet. If we want deadly viruses, bacteria or toxins, we have plenty of them available from just natural evolution, that have decimated sizeable numbers of people in the past, and that we've been studying and archiving for decades in labs to understand them and recognise them faster if they reappear. They just need to release a sizeable sample of those if they want to eradicate a few cities, as well (black pest, anyone?)
Why go the expensive way of engineering something when nature has already done it for you, basically for free? (well technically not free, the price was the lives those things already took during their own outbreaks, but you know what I mean, it's not a direct cost for us anymore)

At any rate, believing they actually want to do anything remotely close to that kind of bad to us is delirious at best. They are far too much in need of us to produce their wealth to take any risk like that (especially because it would affect them, too), and money is a far better way to control people when you have a good control over it like they do. They very much know that, they're not stupid.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Nobody said it was a "left-vs-right" thing. It's by far the opposite actually. Care not to bring your dividing politics that have nothing to do in this discussion in a thread that's already quite divided by the stupidity of some that put everyone at risk?




Actually KingVamp did and I do care, if you don't think there is a political component to the covid nonsense that's on par for someone like you.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

Come ON, we've been looking at treatments for the better part of the past 18 months, we have quite a few of them that are reasonably good, but they cannot do miracles. You cannot cure someone that's already dead jim, and most people that get to the point of being sent to hospital in need for ventilation are basically already dead. That's what's been happening en masse several times throughout the last 18 months, all over the world, and put most healthcare systems down for months at a time. Now we have a solution to get that under control and be able to go back to reasonably normal lives, and shit dumbasses like you are refusing that for whatever reason. 
You'd prefer to live your entire life from one lockdown to the next, having to wear a mask anytime you go out of your house and being basically unable to travel safely anywhere? I sure do NOT. Especially when the lives of some of my relatives are at stake.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

He did not, there's no mention in the message you cited of anything related to right-wing vs left-wing. You're inventing yourself an enemy that does not exist in this context.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Come ON, we've been looking at treatments for the better part of the past 18 months, we have quite a few of them that are reasonably good, but they cannot do miracles. You cannot cure someone that's already dead jim, and most people that get to the point of being sent to hospital in need for ventilation are basically already dead. That's what's been happening en masse several times throughout the last 18 months, all over the world, and put most healthcare systems down for months at a time. Now we have a solution to get that under control and be able to go back to reasonably normal lives, and shit dumbasses like you are refusing that for whatever reason.
> You'd prefer to live your entire life from one lockdown to the next, having to wear a mask anytime you go out of your house and being basically unable to travel safely anywhere? I sure do NOT. Especially when the lives of some of my relatives are at stake.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> ...




Did so, when they were derping on about Prolifers being antivax they were absolutely blaming the right.

And I don't wear a mask, haven't been on a lock and wont be people don't tolerate that shit where I live.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

Prolifers exist on the left too, you're just seeking to blame someone for something stupid because you feel targeted. Well big news: you should be targeted, regardless of your political orientation, because you're one of those morons that are making it so we still cannot go back to normal, and won't be able to anytime soon.
Nobody fucking cares about the fact you're a moron who doesn't respect shit jim, nobody cares that you're stupid enough to not have been protecting yourself nor your relatives from a potentially deadly illness. But you know most of the world is in an awful state because of that, and you know it's entirely because of peeps like you that it still goes on even though solutions are available. Behaviours like yours make me sick.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Prolifers exist on the left too, you're just seeking to blame someone for something stupid because you feel targeted. Well big news: you should be targeted, regardless of your political orientation, because you're one of those morons that are making it so we still cannot go back to normal, and won't be able to anytime soon.
> Nobody fucking cares about the fact you're a moron who doesn't respect shit jim, nobody cares that you're stupid enough to not have been protecting yourself nor your relatives from a potentially deadly illness. But you know most of the world is in an awful state because of that, and you know it's entirely because of peeps like you that it still goes on even though solutions are available. Behaviours like yours make me sick.



I been on normal since day one, not my fault a bunch of beta's like you are naturally inclined to do as they are told.  There are no solutions available.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> I been on normal since day one, not my fault a bunch of beta's like you are naturally inclined to do as they are told.  There are no solutions available.


Lol, of course you use a term like “beta.” I am never shocked by someone who lacks evidence for his claims and refuses to post anything factual to use a term like “beta.” Do you ever plan on providing any evidence to any of the claims you’ve made in this thread?


----------



## tabzer (Aug 2, 2021)




----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

Looks like we have a couple of mud flinging contests going on simultaneously - cut it out. Anyone resorting to insults will be punished appropriately. If you can't put your thoughts across politely then you won't be participating at all. I won't be combing through the thread with a fine tooth right now, but I will be keeping an eye on it, so don't make me catch you.

In any case, regarding the whole left vs. right, yokel vs. smarty pants debacle that seems to be brewing, oh how short people's memory is. I distinctly remember that just a few years ago we had this problem in regards to... whooping cough.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/...tion-rates-are-as-low-as-south-sudans/380252/

The rich and affluent are just as "anti-vax" as the country bumpkins - in fact, in 2014 the vaccination rates in L.A. we're on-par with those of *Sudan* and *Chad*. Celebrities are advertising the COVID-19 vaccine now because it's the popular thing to do, not because they "trust the science". Anti-vax demonstrations were often headlined by the likes of Jim Carrey, not your local farmer's union rep. Do you all not remember the thimerosal, mercury and aluminium debacles, or have you chosen to forget? Just 7 years ago prominent figures in public life were perfectly comfortable with making fools of themselves, left and right.

In fact, RealClearScience posted a piece on this way back when:

https://www.realclearscience.com/jo...r_conservatives_more_anti-vaccine_108905.html

The states that had the strongest anti-vax sentiment overwhelmingly voted for Obama, not Romney. The anti-vax movement was, in part, inspired by idiots from Hollywood who thought they were too rich to get sick.


> The *two most pro-vaccine states are solid red, and 5 of the 8 most pro-vaccine states overwhelmingly voted for Romney*.
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...


Natural remedies, patchouli, non-GMO gluten-free organic everything and healing crystals have always been the domain of the left, not the right.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 2, 2021)

Kurt91 said:


> I’m on a phone with crappy signal, so forgive me for not wanting to type the entire thing out again, but my original post is only a couple posts back.
> 
> Anyways, did you miss the point about the situation where getting a hold of a doctor can be all but impossible? How am I supposed to get a medical exception without access to the doctor to get him to write one?


Theirs multiple ways to solve that.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> "They" lol, there is just as many all-natural crazy anti-vaxxers on the left.


So, he just admitted that they are crazy.



RocaBOT said:


> Prolifers exist on the left too


While I didn't have a specific group in mind, base on the vaccine rates of today, I doubt they are just as many anti-vax pro-life or even pro-choice for that matter. That said, it was aimed at anyone that claimed to be pro-life while doing nothing to stop the spread of this virus. Not to mention, "my body my choice" doesn't seem to apply when they talk about transgender people.



jimbo13 said:


> And your not going to control a virus, you can't stop the common cold let alone this crap the Chinese let out of a lab.
> 
> The Vaccines are doing jack and shit, they aren't going to look seriously at treatments unless pharma can make a few billion dollars and politicians can exploit nonsense to increase their power.


Except we already stop or minimizes viruses before with vaccines and once again, if you don't want politicians that just want power, stop voting for them.



jimbo13 said:


> Your damn right were not going to be controlled.


You convinced me. What's next on your no nuance anti-government mission? Anti-seat belts? Anti-driver's licenses?


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> So, he just admitted that they are crazy.



So? I like crazy people who question and reject authority.  Historically crazy people are the only ones who do anything interesting.

Best advice I've ever had. My Grandpa used to run stop signs and I questioned him about it, "Only women and fruits take orders from inanimate objects."


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Looks like we have a couple of mud flinging contests going on simultaneously - cut it out. Anyone resolving to insults will be punished appropriately, if you can't put your thoughts across politely then you won't be participating at all. I won't be combing through the thread with a fine tooth right now, but I will be keeping an eye on it, so don't make me catch you.
> 
> In any case, regarding the whole left vs. right, yokel vs. smarty pants debacle that seems to be brewing, oh how short people's memory is. I distinctly remember that just a few years ago we had this debacle in regards to... whooping cough.
> 
> ...



Comrade, just stop. You're literally citing a study from a whole different panic. This doesn't scale to the present day, and those 2014 numbers are gathered from even further back. A lot can change in a decade, particularly when a pandemic gets politicized, and honestly hitting LA in particular feels a lot like cherry-picking. In the present world with Alex Jones and Mike Adams and Steven Crowder literally hyping "all natural" products to make your brain stronger and your libido wilder, it is a bit telling how those trends shifted.



jimbo13 said:


> So? I like crazy people who question and reject authority.  Historically crazy people are the only ones who do anything interesting.
> 
> Best advice I've ever had. My Grandpa used to run stop signs and I questioned him about it, "Only women and fruits take orders from inanimate objects."



Sweet fluffy jebus, you really love to embrace those right wing misogynist stereotypes. Well, here, have a leftist bingo. Hitler was a crazy right winger who murdered so many folk the commies had to stomp him out.

Seriously though, don't embrace insanity just because reality doesn't work right for you unless you forsake your sanity. Embrace reality, comrade! You're wrong and it's not really okay but you can make it better by moving forward whenever you're ready. Vaccines are good, as is empathy and public responsibility.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> So? I like crazy people who question and reject authority.  Historically crazy people are the only ones who do anything interesting.
> 
> Best advice I've ever had. My Grandpa used to run stop signs and I questioned him about it, "Only women and fruits take orders from inanimate objects."


Theres a difference between rejecting authority and rejecting experts. If someone in a position of power, like say Trump, said to drink a chemical to cure the virus without any degree in a relevant field or any existing research at the time to back up his claim, then thats authority. When people who are the leading experts in a subject with decades of experience, studies and trials give advice, thats not authority. Thats expertise. Youre not sticking it to the man, youre sticking it to yourself. Also, choosing to run stop signs rather than be told what to do is a fantastic analogy for this situation, choosing to actively put yourself and others in danger for no reason is exactly what youre doing.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> Theres a difference between rejecting authority and rejecting experts. If someone in a position of power, like say Trump, said to drink a chemical to cure the virus without any degree in a relevant field or any existing research at the time to back up his claim, then thats authority. When people who are the leading experts in a subject with decades of experience, studies and trials give advice, thats not authority. Thats expertise. Youre not sticking it to the man, youre sticking it to yourself. Also, choosing to run stop signs rather than be told what to do is a fantastic analogy for this situation, choosing to actively put yourself and others in danger for no reason is exactly what youre doing.



In 2021 the only "Experts" are those that authorities approve of, the rest are censored and memory holed regardless of prior achievement or credibility.


----------



## PROTOBOY (Aug 2, 2021)

I will not get until/if they release a newer version of it. These vaccines in my opinion are still on alpha/beta phase..


----------



## linuxares (Aug 2, 2021)

PROTOBOY said:


> I will not get until/if they release a newer version of it. These vaccines in my opinion are still on alpha/beta phase..


No? That was during the clinical trial


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> In 2021 the only "Experts" are those that authorities approve of, the rest are censored and memory holed regardless of prior achievement or credibility.


Do you have examples of any scientists in fields relevant to covid/vaccines who spoke out against the vaccine being safe/effective and were silenced? Or scientists from other countries who cant be silenced by the US government?


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 2, 2021)

Tbf, a little crazy is fine, if it isn't actually doing any harm.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> Do you have examples of any scientists in fields relevant to covid/vaccines who spoke out against the vaccine being safe/effective and were silenced? Or scientists from other countries who cant be silenced by the US government?




*mRNA vaccine inventor speaks out on 'Tucker' after YouTube deletes video of him discussing risks*
*'The government is not being transparent with us about what those risks are,' said Dr. Robert Malone*

*https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-mrna-vaccine-inventor,*


*Feel free to claim he isn't credible now for going on fox news despite inventing the injection your taking.*


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> *mRNA vaccine inventor speaks out on 'Tucker' after YouTube deletes video of him discussing risks*
> *'The government is not being transparent with us about what those risks are,' said Dr. Robert Malone*
> 
> *https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-mrna-vaccine-inventor,*
> ...


Firstly, he is not the inventor of mRNA vaccines https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd. Secondly, I wont claim he isnt credible, but one example of a single video from a single scientist being taken down on a single platform is not really enough to claim that every scientist who doesnt agree with the government is being censored.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> Firstly, he is not the inventor of mRNA vaccines https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd. Secondly, I wont claim he isnt credible, but one example of a single video from a single scientist being taken down on a single platform is not really enough to claim that every scientist who doesnt agree with the government is being censored.



Cool, how many examples do you need before you stop trying to convince me that censorship of dissenting experts isn't taking place.

I am not looking to be endlessly trolled with moving goal posts of what constitutes censorship.

So lets get a number here, not a subjective platitude.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Cool, how many examples do you need before you stop trying to convince me that censorship of dissenting experts isn't taking place.


I never said that, dont put words in my mouth. You made a claim that EVERY scientist who doesnt agree with ' the narrative' is censored. As evidence you provided a single example of one platform removing a video from one scientist. I never told you that no dissenting experts were censored, but I do absolutely call bullshit on the idea that theres widespread dissent among experts but ALL of them are censored to keep the public from knowing. 

To prove widespread censorship youd need more than individual examples. If there really are a statistically relevant number of dissenting scientists and every single one is being censored then thats in the thousands if not tens of thousands of examples, and im sure there would be significant info about it online, unless every website is working together to remove all evidence.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 2, 2021)

Wasn't it a Woman that started working on RNA back like in the 80-90s and not some old quack doctor?

EDIT: I didn't see Ibcap had posted a debunking and I were right about the woman. I just remember reading about it last year in a Swedish Newspaper.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> I never said that, dont put words in my mouth. You made a claim that EVERY scientist who doesnt agree with ' the narrative' is censored. As evidence you provided a single example of one platform removing a video from one scientist. I never told you that no dissenting experts were censored, but I do absolutely call bullshit on the idea that theres widespread dissent among experts but ALL of them are censored to keep the public from knowing.
> 
> To prove widespread censorship youd need more than individual examples. If there really are a statistically relevant number of dissenting scientists and every single one is being censored then thats in the thousands if not tens of thousands of examples, and im sure there would be significant info about it online, unless every website is working together to remove all evidence.




Gotcha, you don't want to quantify what constitutes censorship so you can apply whatever suits your narrative at the moment.

So I'll just accept whatever definition of Censorship your willing to admit too and state emphatically whatever level you are agreeing to is to much to have any credibility as far as I am concerned. 



linuxares said:


> Wasn't it a Woman that started working on RNA back like in the 80-90s and not some old quack doctor?



Dr. Malone is the inventor of mRNA vaccines (and DNA vaccines). He also discovered lipid mediated and naked RNA transfection technologies. 

It all started when he was at the Salk Institute in 1987 and 1988. There, he pioneered in-vitro RNA transfection and also in-vivo RNA transfection (in frog embryos, as well as mice). 

This resulted in his seminal paper: Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection RW Malone, PL Felgner, IM Verma. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS) 86 (16), 6077-6081

His filed patent and disclosures from the Salk included in-vivo RNA transfection and also methods for mRNA stabilization - now being claimed as invented by others. These are available for review.


----------



## PROTOBOY (Aug 2, 2021)

linuxares said:


> No? That was during the clinical trial



Not really, as they made under a rush. Aa revision that can protect against the deltas are coming probably.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Dr. Malone is the inventor of mRNA vaccines (and DNA vaccines). He also discovered lipid mediated and naked RNA transfection technologies.
> 
> It all started when he was at the Salk Institute in 1987 and 1988. There, he pioneered in-vitro RNA transfection and also in-vivo RNA transfection (in frog embryos, as well as mice).
> 
> ...


I've read up about it. But apparently it's not enough to be the "inventor" apparently. Also he wasn't alone on this paper. So it's kind of false to claim he was the sole person.

Sadly for me how he speaks is to sound bigger than he really is. He just found a theory, a method but didn't finish it until the Hungarian doctor came in to the picture it seems.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 2, 2021)

PROTOBOY said:


> Not really, as they made under a rush. Aa revision that can protect against the deltas are coming probably.


No, that have been debunked. They been working on mRNA vaccines since the 2000's. It's not a new tech but wow research goes fast when a lot of money, time and resources all focus on one goal right?


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I've read up about it. But apparently it's not enough to be the "inventor" apparently. Also he wasn't alone on this paper. So it's kind of false to claim he was the sole person.
> 
> Sadly for me how he speaks is to sound bigger than he really is. He just found a theory, a method but didn't finish it until the Hungarian doctor came in to the picture it seems.



Minutia aside without the entire Edison/Tesla Jobs/Woz debate, he's more qualified to be discussing it than the Youtube trolls censoring him discussing side effects on a podcast.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Minutia aside without the entire Edison/Tesla Jobs/Woz debate, he's more qualified to be discussing it than the Youtube trolls censoring him discussing side effects on a podcast.


A lot of scientific people have however debunked his claims. So Youtube is just doing their job in removing misinformation imho.
Call it censorship all you want but Youtube isn't a public company. YouTube can tomorrow decide that all Gardinring on their platform should be removed and so they can do it, if they so wished.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 2, 2021)

linuxares said:


> A lot of scientific people have however debunked his claims. So Youtube is just doing their job in removing misinformation imho.
> Call it censorship all you want but Youtube isn't a public company. YouTube can tomorrow decide that all Gardinring on their platform should be removed and so they can do it, if they so wished.



Censorship is not limited to what you deem as "Misinformation"  it is a matter of public record Facebook issued a memo that they would censor true provable statements if it was deemed to promote vaccine hesitancy.

There is no qualifier in these censorship models that it has to be untrue.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 2, 2021)

DoubleDate said:


> Sadly i do believe that a more dominant mutation will come out in the upcoming months due to the selfish people who are putting others at risk because they refuse to take the vaccine causing the virus to go into a harder mutation.
> 
> If we all just cooperated from the beginning and not listening to all the conspiracies things that come forth from every disaster events, we might be in a very different position than we are now. People are just too selfish and think that the "Goverment" wants to murder them all. If the Goverment trully wanted to eradicate as many humans as possible, believe me we wouldn't all be here, they could just release a manufactered deadly virus into the air untreceable and we all would fall like domino stones. There are many ways that could take many people out if they wanted. Like others have said, its selfish not to take the vaccine, as it meant to stop the virus but instead it will mutate by all the naysayers that in the end will bring only more hurt than good.


Yes, an argument I always see here is that young people have a high chance of survival so they don't need the vaccine.

But viruses mutate. And young people can pass it among each other allowing for more deadly strains of the virus to mutate to ones where our vaccines have less of an effect against.

It's not just for young people to fight off. It's to kill off the virus quickly so that less of the deadly mutations can happen.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 2, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> "They" lol, there is just as many all-natural crazy anti-vaxxers on the left.


false equivalency. There isn't. On the "left" (democrats) none of them, not a single major member is anti vaxxer. On the the right, not only does it have multiple members pushing anti vaxx rhetoric, but also too should I add, that conspiracy theorists tend to believe in multiple conspiracy's at once. And it just so happens the right has a fuck ton of conspiracy's.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 2, 2021)

"Elite party cues increase vaccination intentions among Republicans"

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/32/e2106559118


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Comrade, just stop. You're literally citing a study from a whole different panic. This doesn't scale to the present day, and those 2014 numbers are gathered from even further back. A lot can change in a decade, particularly when a pandemic gets politicized, and honestly hitting LA in particular feels a lot like cherry-picking. In the present world with Alex Jones and Mike Adams and Steven Crowder literally hyping "all natural" products to make your brain stronger and your libido wilder, it is a bit telling how those trends shifted.


The contention made was that anti-vax rhetoric is uniquely right wing. It's clearly not, as evidenced by previous vaccine grief.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

The only ones that claimed that were peeps like jim who want to victimise themselves by putting those words into others' mouths though, so even the claim itself is baseless and can be disregarded without need for any kind of proof. That has been my point for 2 pages now.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 2, 2021)

I'm not convinced that even 100% vaccination rate can eradicate the virus. We need to give big pharma billion-dollar contracts so they can repackage old molecules and sell them as new treatments. The only way forward is new patents.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The contention made was that anti-vax rhetoric is uniquely right wing. It's clearly not, as evidenced by previous vaccine grief.


But you have to admit that COVID-19 anti-vax rhetoric is broadly right-wing.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

broadly, but not only, and that's been the point from the beginning, I'm not understanding why such a fuss when the problem is the rhetoric itself and not where it comes from.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> But you have to admit that COVID-19 anti-vax rhetoric is broadly right-wing.


I don't know that for a fact - I would have to check the party line breakdown of vaccine hesitancy. If you have that statistic, I'd love to look into it. You're probably right, I'm not even going to contest that. My point, which was perhaps lost on some, was that "mistrusting vaccines" is not a uniquely right wing phenomenon - it affects both sides of the political spectrum. It would also be unfair not to mention that a lot of the right wing opposition is not against the vaccine per se, but rather against growing government overreach in attempting to distribute it. Now there are mandates on the table, and that doesn't fly well with the conservative-minded or the more libertarian crowds. I know a good handful of people who refuse to take a jab not because they don't think it will work - they know it would. Rather, they performed their risk versus reward calculation and, based on their risk of contracting the disease or suffering any consequences from it, they came to the conclusion that it's not worth the hassle (this is primarily based on age). I also know some who refuse to take it *because* it's constantly shoved in their faces, so they're acting entirely out of spite. The previous anti-vaxx debacle was more so about the completely benign preservatives rather than any of that stuff. Remember when affluent mothers would organise "chicken pox parties" to immunise their kids? I remember, and I also remember similar events during the beginning of the COVID pandemic when the lethality of the virus wasn't fully explored yet - tremendously irresponsible and dangerous doesn't even begin to describe it. I wonder how many people have died due to such a "natural" approach towards the pandemic. Rocks are natural too, but I wouldn't recommend eating them to aid in digestion issues - I presume they're rough on the way out. In any case, I thought avoiding the *whopping cough* vaccine was silly at the time and I think avoiding the COVID one is equally, if not more silly.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't know that for a fact - I would have to check the party line breakdown of vaccine hesitancy. If you have that statistic, I'd love to look into it.


I posted this poll several pages back (it's a PDF): https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/w2zmwpzsq0/econTabReport.pdf

3% of Biden voters actively won't get vaccinated, vs. 33% of Trump voters. When you include the "I'm not sure" category, 7% of Biden voters aren't sure or actively won't get vaccinated, vs. 46% of Trump voters.

The data in this poll comports with the data from other polls. I shared this one a few pages back because it included questions on conspiracy theories like microchips in vaccines, etc.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I posted this poll several pages back (it's a PDF): https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/w2zmwpzsq0/econTabReport.pdf
> 
> 3% of Biden voters actively won't get vaccinated, vs. 33% of Trump voters. When you include the "I'm not sure" category, 7% of Biden voters aren't sure or actively won't get vaccinated, vs. 46% of Trump voters.
> 
> The data in this poll comports with the data from other polls. I shared this one a few pages back because it included questions on conspiracy theories like microchips in vaccines, etc.


That's entirely fair, thank you for elucidating. For once it's good that the Bidenites are towing the party line on this one, in spite of the reservations they would've otherwise had.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 2, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I'm not convinced that even 100% vaccination rate can eradicate the virus. We need to give big pharma billion-dollar contracts so they can repackage old molecules and sell them as new treatments. The only way forward is new patents.


Do you remember smallpox? No? Haven't heard any cases of it in the modern day?
Guess what it's counted as. eradicated. And you know what caused it to be eradicated? Vaccines.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

Reual said:


> Do you remember smallpox? No? Haven't heard any cases of it in the modern day?
> Guess what it's counted as. eradicated. And you know what caused it to be eradicated? Vaccines.


The funny thing about when the leaked CDC information called the delta variant "as contagious as chickenpox" was the fact that most people didn't know just how contagious chickenpox was because of successful vaccination efforts.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

In all fairness, polio is probably a better comparison - that disease has been effectively eradicated in the civilised world at this point, not a whole lot of Iron Lungs around. We also saw similar mask-wearing measures during the 1918 flu epidemic - people refusing to comply were ostracised and called "mask-slackers".

https://www.history.com/.amp/news/1918-pandemic-public-health-campaigns

We've "been through this before" a number of times.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 2, 2021)

Reual said:


> Do you remember smallpox? No? Haven't heard any cases of it in the modern day?
> Guess what it's counted as. eradicated. And you know what caused it to be eradicated? Vaccines.


At what point did my sarcasm seem like a plausible argument?


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> At what point did my sarcasm seem like a plausible argument?


Obvious jokes aside, fact of the matter is that we probably *won't* eradicate the virus - it's far more likely that we'll eventually all build immunity, natural or via vaccination, and the virus will fade away. It's been 10 years and we still see cases of swine flu in some regions of the world - it's just the way it is. Anyone under the impression that we can "beat the virus" is misinformed, that doesn't happen on a global scale. It'll stay around for as long as there are viable carriers. There's no magic pill or shot that will make it go away entirely - we can only work on better treatments and immunise. That's another good reason to vaccinate - if you want everything to go back to normal, you may want to just go for it while it's quick and convenient. There isn't a special date in the calendar when the virus reaches retirement age and we forget about it - it'll be a problem for as long as it poses a serious risk to health.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Obvious jokes aside, fact of the matter is that we probably *won't* eradicate the virus - it's far more likely that we'll eventually all build immunity, natural or via vaccination, and the virus will fade away. It's been 10 years and we still see cases of swine flu in some regions of the world - it's just the way it is. Anyone under the impression that we can "beat the virus" is misinformed, that doesn't happen on a global scale. It'll stay around for as long as there are viable carriers. There's no magic pill or shot that will make it go away entirely - we can only work on better treatments and immunise. That's another good reason to vaccinate - if you want everything to go back to normal, you may want to go for it and just vaccinate. There isn't a special date in the calendar when the virus reaches retirement age and we forget about it - it'll be a problem for as long as it poses serious risk to health.


Here's a handy chart I saw a few months back about what's likely to happen with COVID-19 over time:




 

TLDR, eradication is a fantasy, elimination requires significantly more people getting vaccinated, so we are probably left with the disease becoming endemic and comparable to today's relationship with influenza.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Here's a handy chart I saw a few months back about what's likely to happen with COVID-19 over time:
> 
> View attachment 271940
> 
> TLDR, eradication is a fantasy, elimination requires significantly more people getting vaccinated, so we are probably left with the disease becoming endemic and comparable to today's relationship with influenza.


The hope is that once it mutates, it will create new, less deadly strains over time (which apparently is the trend with most viruses), but yes, it won't be completely eradicated, it covers too much ground. If this strain survives, it will be just as dangerous in the future as it is today, so it makes perfect sense to immunise against it. There's no better time for it than right now, while it's at its peak and the risk of contracting it is high.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> "mask-slackers".


"He's stealing it!" Thanks

Anti-maskers? No.    Mask-slackers? Yes.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 2, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> "He's stealing it!" Thanks
> 
> Anti-maskers? No.    Mask-slackers? Yes.


We do like a bit of retro on the Temp.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> (which apparently is the trend with most viruses)


Sadly, that is only true because "most" viruses we really hear from are way deadlier, and the more deadly they are, the less effective they are at spreading (it's quite difficult to spread widely from a dead host, as people might guess). 
With this kind of virus that started out pretty mild compared to the ones that had "comparable" consequences we know of, it's actually going the other way with the variants we've seen emerge for the past few months, and it'll most likely settle around the level of virulence we reached with delta, or higher if we are unlucky. As long as virulence doesn't get in the way of transmission, it's less likely that less virulent mutations are selected, as they also tend to produce less viurses from their hosts (thus being less effective at transmission than more virulent ones if they don't kill their hosts too fast).


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 2, 2021)




----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


>


Some of these have already been posted and subsequently debunked (many of the copy/pasters are anti-vaxxers).

Edit: I find it interesting that anti-vaxxers want to focus on the frequency of something being tweeted instead of the facts in the tweets.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 2, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


>


First image seems to be one doctor who said that (the one in the top left whos verified) and then a bunch of people mocking it. One even changed delta to ligma. The second seems to be blatantly antivax propaganda, its intentionally implying that the vaccine and safety measures dont work. So is your point that antivaxxers are mocking doctors and spreading propaganda via alt accounts?


----------



## Xzi (Aug 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> That's entirely fair, thank you for elucidating. For once it's good that the Bidenites are towing the party line on this one, in spite of the reservations they would've otherwise had.


I think things would've broken down pretty much the same even if Trump had been reelected, since he was very quiet about endorsing the vaccine after he got it himself.  A lot of his supporters are _still _unaware that he endorsed it at all, for that matter.


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 2, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> First image seems to be one doctor who said that (the one in the top left whos verified) and then a bunch of people *mocking it.*



"mocking it."

Yeah, sure.



Lacius said:


> (many of the copy/pasters are anti-vaxxers)



People gonna believe what they want to believe I guess. That's what belief is all about.

It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. So, carry on. 

(and I have gotten the shots btw)


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> People gonna believe what they want to believe I guess. That's what belief is all about.


Belief should be about what's likely true, not what one "wants to believe."


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 2, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> "mocking it."
> 
> Yeah, sure.
> 
> ...



I gotta ask, what exactly are you even trying to show with your picture? If I'm not mistaken, you've thrown it up a couple of times, but it seems like just random garbage spam copy-pasted across several twitter accounts. Glad to hear you've gotten the vaccine, but... are you not satisfied with it? Are you mocking twitter's inability to figure out spam? Do you just like misleading screenshots?


----------



## player594 (Aug 2, 2021)

I got vaccinated way back in May. 2 doses of Moderna. I just don't see what the reasoning is for not getting it. Your not getting chipped.(Though if you have a cell phone you basicaly already are). If it's because they think it's rushed, they have been working on these virus vaccines for year. If it's just stupidity, well we know there is no fix for that.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2021)

player594 said:


> I got vaccinated way back in May. 2 doses of Moderna. I just don't see what the reasoning is for not getting it. Your not getting chipped.(Though if you have a cell phone you basicaly already are). If it's because they think it's rushed, they have been working on these virus vaccines for year. If it's just stupidity, well we know there is no fix for that.


The Pfizer vaccine was completed by April, 2020. The rest of the time was safety and efficacy testing.

Edit: Actually, the mRNA vaccines were done pretty much by the end of January, 2020. April is just when the real safety and efficacy testing started.


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 2, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Do you just like misleading screenshots?



I'm not being misled. But someone is paying for a whole lot of misleading out there.

And no, I've not posted those screenshots before this.

Twitter is a swirling mass of propaganda and falsehoods. On all sides. When it is being done 'with good intentions,' I find it very concerning. When it is being fronted by the government and big tech, I find it downright terrifying.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 3, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> I'm not being misled. But someone is paying for a whole lot of misleading out there.
> 
> And no, I've not posted those screenshots before this.
> 
> Twitter is a swirling mass of propaganda and falsehoods. On all sides. When it is being done 'with good intentions,' I find it very concerning. When it is being fronted by the government and big tech, I find it downright terrifying.



You presume it is being done by the government and big tech... first of all, twitter isn't owned nor managed by the government, and it doesn't have a dog in the fight for vaccination efforts. What purpose would twitter spam serve either party? If anything it seems like user-generated conspiracy bait.

Second, glad you believe yourself informed, but... about what? Care to clarify a notch or two?

Lastly, I yield it is possible someone else posted that nonsense prior, but it still doesn't really mean anything. At the end of the day, twitter is just a platform for quick dirty snippets of whatever, hardly a source for healthy discourse or intelligent discussion.


----------



## seany1990 (Aug 3, 2021)

Fully microchipped and fully magnetised


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 3, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> "mocking it."
> 
> Yeah, sure.


They literally changed delta variant to ligma variant in one of your pictures, there's no way you actually believe that a pro vaccine leftist is copy pasting tweets from doctors but replacing delta with ligma. Its incredibly obviously a troll and you fell for it but you cant admit that.


----------



## osaka35 (Aug 3, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The hope is that once it mutates, it will create new, less deadly strains over time (which apparently is the trend with most viruses), but yes, it won't be completely eradicated, it covers too much ground. If this strain survives, it will be just as dangerous in the future as it is today, so it makes perfect sense to immunise against it. There's no better time for it than right now, while it's at its peak and the risk of contracting it is high.


OOOO, something I know something about! yes, you are completely correct. the tl;dr version is viruses want to survive, and their survival is maximized by propagating incredibly well...but minimizing damage to the host. So, to the topic on hand, most viruses like this are deadly because they jumped from one species to another. The original species has mild symptoms, but that's because the viruses has adapted itself to that particular species. When a virus jumps species, the virus is still acting like it's in the old host, doing stuff that'd be mild for the old host...but is incredibly deadly to the new host. whoopsies.

Eventually it'll hopefully mutate an adaptation that makes itself less and less damaging to the new host species. But only if it doesn't kill all of them first. I mean, it doesn't *have* to adapt, it could just as easily become more deadly...but that trend doesn't help its survival, which means its far less likely to happen. So either way, it's best to get a vaccine. Because who knows how long it'll take for random mutations to be beneficial for the virus (and us).

fun biology lesson for everyone reading this: i say words like "it will adapt" and "it wants" and "acting like", but these are just words used to understand. the virus has no actual agency. it's like rolling a bunch of marbles down a hill. you can describe the twist and turns "ooo marble A wanted to take that turn a lot more sharply, but marble B cut it off!", but they're just marbles rolling down a hill. same with viruses, and biology as a whole, for that matter.


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> TLDR, eradication is a fantasy, elimination requires significantly more people getting vaccinated, so we are probably left with the disease becoming endemic and comparable to today's relationship with influenza.



Well I agree with you on this. It will never 'go away' completely. This isn't polio or smallpox, it will never be eradicated. Besides just vax hesitancy/resistance in western countries, there's a whole world out there. My in-laws in Japan were on the waiting list for months and finally just got their first shots, and they're both over 80. The flu strain that caused a global pandemic in 1969 is still out there. The 1918 flu strain is probably still out there. And Covid-19, being a coronavirus like many instances of 'common cold' are also coronaviruses, will always be out there. There will never be zero deaths from it. And in the short term, every time we open things back up, even incrementally, there will be a spike. We just have to be sensible about it and accept this, or we'll just be pulling taffy forever instead of pulling off the band-aid. There was a spike in January after many people gathered for Christmas, started going back to work, going shopping, living everyday life (albeit with the mostly useless masks). And there is a spike now, because in many places 4-6 weeks ago we finally abandoned the masks (ostensibly only for the 'fully vaccinated') and social distancing, and most people started living somewhat like normal again.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 3, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> Well I agree with you on this. It will never 'go away' completely. This isn't polio or smallpox, it will never be eradicated. Besides just vax hesitancy/resistance in western countries, there's a whole world out there. My in-laws in Japan were on the waiting list for months and finally just got their first shots, and they're both over 80. The flu strain that caused a global pandemic in 1969 is still out there. The 1918 flu strain is probably still out there. And Covid-19, being a coronavirus like many instances of 'common cold' are also coronaviruses, will always be out there. There will never be zero deaths from it. And in the short term, every time we open things back up, even incrementally, there will be a spike. We just have to be sensible about it and accept this, or we'll just be pulling taffy forever instead of pulling off the band-aid. There was a spike in January after many people gathered for Christmas, started going back to work, going shopping, living everyday life (albeit with the mostly useless masks). And there is a spike now, because in many places 4-6 weeks ago we finally abandoned the masks (ostensibly only for the 'fully vaccinated') and social distancing, and most people started living somewhat like normal again.


The spike in January in the northern hemisphere was in large part because of the winter weather (infectious diseases are more contagious when the weather is cold, there isn't a lot of humidity, and people are more likely to be indoors). The spike we are seeing now is in large part because the delta variant is more infectious, and a significant number of people refuse to get vaccinated.

Also, masks are not "mostly useless." They demonstrably work.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The spike in January in the northern hemisphere was in large part because of the winter weather (infectious diseases are more contagious when the weather is cold, there isn't a lot of humidity, and people are more likely to be indoors). The spike we are seeing now is in large part because the delta variant is more infectious, and a significant number of people refuse to get vaccinated.
> 
> Also, masks are not "mostly useless." They demonstrably work.



Masks are nonsense theater, they have no consistency of make/materials in the population to even do an accurate study.  There is 0 consistency in home made or fashion masks.

We have had Corona virus's long before Covid19 appeared and the science of airborne virus's didn't magically change from what we had already established.   Anything less than a N95 does virtually nothing and makes you touch your face.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 3, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Masks are nonsense theater, they have no consistency of make/materials in the population to even do an accurate study.  There is 0 consistency in home made or fashion masks.


We have numerous studies that show that mask mandates work, regardless of the inconsistency in the make/materials of the masks being used by the public. The Kansas study, as one example, was an excellent apples-to-apples comparison.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947e2.htm



jimbo13 said:


> We have had Corona virus's long before Covid19 appeared and the science of airborne virus's didn't magically change from what we had already established.   Anything less than a N95 does virtually nothing and makes you touch your face.


While an N95 would be preferred, masks that aren't medical-grade masks are also at least somewhat effective in blocking saliva droplets (and thus the virus) as well. See above for the Kansas study, which is one of many studies that shows that mask mandates work.

Some of what Fauci said in the video is still true today (e.g. "Masks are not perfect protection"). However, comments like "people should not be walking around with masks" are outdated, and Fauci has said so. I already explained earlier in this thread (perhaps even in response to you) that Fauci said what he did about masks because a.) The science wasn't completely clear about reusable cotton masks and other masks that weren't medical-grade masks, and b.) There was a shortage of medical-grade masks, and he specifically did not want ordinary citizens hoarding medical-grade masks when the healthcare professions needed them most.

A position that can only be defended by out-of-context and out-of-date YouTube clips, instead of by the science and scientists, probably isn't a defensible position.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We have numerous studies that show that mask mandates work, regardless of the inconsistency in the make/materials of the masks being used by the public. The Kansas study, as one example, was an excellent apples-to-apples comparison.
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6947e2.htm
> 
> 
> ...




To think all this time all they needed was a crocheted kitty mask...


----------



## Lacius (Aug 3, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> To think all this time all they needed was a crocheted kitty mask...


Crochet masks generally are not recommended.


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Also, masks are not "mostly useless." They demonstrably work.



The right masks work, sure. But nobody wears the right masks, excepting for medical professionals and some lucky people able to get thoseelusive N95's. But a piece of t-shirt material on your face or a tissue 'surgical mask' is just theater.

Michael Osterholm says "we should be focusing on vaccine, vaccine, and vaccine," and he wants to get rid of the term "masking" because "it implies anything you put in front of your face works." pic.twitter.com/y6LkQE2kCq— The Post Millennial (@TPostMillennial) August 2, 2021


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Crochet masks generally are not recommended.



There is nothing in any of the masks mandates that prohibit a mask being Crochet'ed quit deferring to common sense.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 3, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> The right masks work, sure. But nobody wears the right masks, excepting for medical professionals and some lucky people able to get thoseelusive N95's. But a piece of t-shirt material on your face or a tissue 'surgical mask' is just theater.


It's theater in the sense that it doesn't provide any appreciable degree of filtration. It "works" in the sense that it prevents saliva splatter as you speak, which reduces (not negates) spread onto others and onto surfaces. The degree of efficacy of non-medical masks is modest at best, but it is a barrier for large droplets. Fine particulate from normal breathing passes through them, but you shouldn't be in a proximity close enough to make it a relevant factor in regards to interacting with strangers anyway, hence the distancing recommendation (in some places requirement). Masking operates on the assumption of "something is better than nothing", ideally we'd all be using masks that are tightly-fitting and capable of filtration of fine particulate, but it's not an ideal world. They are indeed no replacement for inoculation, rather a spread reduction measure.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 3, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> The right masks work, sure. But nobody wears the right masks, excepting for medical professionals and some lucky people able to get thoseelusive N95's. But a piece of t-shirt material on your face or a tissue 'surgical mask' is just theater.


Studies show that mask mandates work, and most people aren't wearing surgical masks. See my post above for more details.

Cloth masks, for example, do not offer perfect protection. In fact, the data shows they probably offer protection somewhere around 50%. They aren't great. For comparison, the vaccines currently offer about 88% real-world protection against presently circulating COVID-19 variants. However, the protection afforded by masks still makes a big difference.

Edit: To be clear, mask-wearing works in part because it reduces potential disease vectors. For every one person who doesn't get infected because somebody was wearing a mask, you have numerous people that didn't get infected who otherwise would have because they were never exposed to the disease in the first place.



jimbo13 said:


> There is nothing in any of the masks mandates that prohibit a mask being Crochet'ed quit deferring to common sense.


Most people know not to wear crocheted masks. In addition, some mask mandates preclude crocheted masks, and the CDC guidance precludes crocheted masks.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 3, 2021)

Ironically, even a crocheted mask would provide *some* degree of spread reduction for as long as it absorbs moisture - what would normally land somewhere else would instead be absorbed by the wool strands. Sadly, wool is somewhat hydrophobic, so once the cavities between fibers become filled with moisture and the mask is damp, it would stop doing anything at all. I suspect this would happen within minutes and would (obviously) not stop large droplets from being launched by your mouth, but if we're being cheeky then technically some of your spit would in fact remain on your face as opposed to in the surrounding air.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 3, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Ironically, even a crocheted mask would provide *some* degree of spread reduction for as long as it absorbs moisture - what would normally land somewhere else would instead be absorbed by the wool strands. Sadly, wool is somewhat hydrophobic, so once the cavities between fibers become damp, it would stop doing anything at all. I suspect this would happen within minutes and would (obviously) not stop large droplets from being launched by your mouth, but if we're being cheeky then technically some of your spit would in fact remain on four face as opposed to in the surrounding air.


Funnily, there are patterns out there for crocheted masks that offer sufficient protection against COVID-19, but they include a cloth filter on the inside. In other words, it's basically a cloth mask with yarn on the outside.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 3, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Funnily, there are patterns out there for crocheted masks that offer sufficient protection against COVID-19, but they include a cloth filter on the inside. In other words, it's basically a cloth mask with yarn on the outside.


Who am I to judge the fashionistas around me - I'm just a numbers guy.


----------



## leon315 (Aug 3, 2021)

Today i've got my 1st shot of Pfizer vaccine, i'm feeling great!
Hey, u got vaccine yet? What are you waiting for?


----------



## player594 (Aug 3, 2021)

I got vaccinated and never stopped wearing a mask in public or even around other family members. I look at it this way, mask are no perfect protection, but I would rather someone  sneeze or cough with a mask on. At least that way most(not all true) moisture droplets are caught by the mask. If it lowers my chances of getting sick by even a small percentage that doesn't hurt me or anyone else, then I think it's good. I have serious health problems so I'm careful.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 3, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> "mocking it."
> 
> Yeah, sure.
> 
> ...


What are you even trying to say and can it be verified with credible sources?


----------



## MohammedQ8 (Aug 3, 2021)

No to vaccine.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 3, 2021)

I never seen anyone wear crocheted masks.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 4, 2021)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/icu-...ad2ae4b000b997df1f17?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Feel bad for the doctors.


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 4, 2021)

Gene Wu is one of the Texas Legislature Democrats who flew to Wash. D.C. to prevent there being a quorum (and any voting).  He probably shouldn't have asked this question.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 4, 2021)

Reual said:


> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/icu-...ad2ae4b000b997df1f17?utm_source=pocket-newtab
> Feel bad for the doctors.



From the article


> And meanwhile, immunocompromised people, for whom vaccines don’t generate much immunity, are desperately waiting for herd immunity. I have no way to comfort my rightfully outraged transplant patients who contracted COVID-19 after isolating for over a year and getting fully vaccinated as soon as they could. With angry tears, these patients tell me it’s not fair that there are people who are choosing to endanger both themselves and the vulnerable people around them. They feel betrayed by their fellow citizens and they are bitter and angry. I cannot blame them.





@BitMasterPlus would say this to the immunocompromised person.



BitMasterPlus said:


> Cry and reeeee all you want, you will never force people to do what you want them to do just because you "think" it's right. Even if some reasons are "selfish and conspiratorial", it's still their reasons and choice, and you can't do jack shit to change it.


----------



## JoeBloggs777 (Aug 4, 2021)

Reual said:


> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/icu-...ad2ae4b000b997df1f17?utm_source=pocket-newtab
> Feel bad for the doctors.



My wife works in A&E in the UK. unvaccinated people are  now turning up with covid and are now worried when they had months to take the vaccines.



> *Fitness enthusiast, 42, who rejected vaccine, dies of Covid*



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-southport-who-rejected-vaccine-dies-of-covid


----------



## Xzi (Aug 4, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> Gene Wu is one of the Texas Legislature Democrats who flew to Wash. D.C. to prevent there being a quorum (and any voting).  He probably shouldn't have asked this question.
> 
> View attachment 272127


Preventing Republicans from trampling all over voting rights is both a good thing, and also has nothing to do with their failures where COVID-19 is concerned.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 4, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> Gene Wu is one of the Texas Legislature Democrats who flew to Wash. D.C. to prevent there being a quorum (and any voting).  He probably shouldn't have asked this question.
> 
> View attachment 272127



Why not? It is a genuine point, and part of why they left. The two things are related, but they aren't contradictory.


----------



## Noctosphere (Aug 5, 2021)

Getting my second dose on august 20th
Pfizer


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Preventing Republicans from trampling all over voting rights is both a good thing, and also has nothing to do with their failures where COVID-19 is concerned.





Dakitten said:


> Why not? *It is a genuine point*, and part of why they left. The two things are related, but they aren't contradictory.



The genuine point is that the Democrats who flew the coop are making it impossible for the legislature there to pass or vote on anything. So don't ask why nothing's being done, when nothing can be done, and you're the cause. You can argue the merits of their decision to block the legislative process all you want. But when you're the one keeping the government from doing anything, you open yourself up for the "doh!" when you point fingers at the government for not doing anything.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 5, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> The genuine point is that the Democrats who flew the coop are making it impossible for the legislature there to pass or vote on anything. So don't ask why nothing's being done, when nothing can be done, and you're the cause. You can argue the merits of their decision to block the legislative process all you want. But when you're the one keeping the government from doing anything, you open yourself up for the "doh!" when you point fingers at the government for not doing anything.


Maybe the Republicans in the state shouldn't be trying to make governance contingent upon restricting access to voting. Just a thought


----------



## Xzi (Aug 5, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> The genuine point is that the Democrats who flew the coop are making it impossible for the legislature there to pass or vote on anything. So don't ask why nothing's being done, when nothing can be done, and you're the cause. You can argue the merits of their decision to block the legislative process all you want. But when you're the one keeping the government from doing anything, you open yourself up for the "doh!" when you point fingers at the government for not doing anything.


We're talking about the Texas state government here, so let's be real: measures to limit the spread of COVID-19 were never actually going to pass.  They didn't even follow stay-at-home orders the first time around.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 5, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Maybe the Republicans in the state shouldn't be trying to make governance contingent upon restricting access to voting. Just a thought



Maybe the people of Texas are well aware what restrictions they want in their balloting process and elected a majority of representatives to do so.
*Texas Democratic legislators are vacationing in Portugal after fleeing the state over election integrity. *

Real responsible Jecovid Witness's there lol.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 5, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Maybe the people of Texas are well aware what restrictions they want in their balloting process and elected a majority of representatives to do so.


The fact that they're afraid of Democrats winning Texas, of all places, speaks volumes.  God forbid they fix their party's platform and actually participate in democracy, rather than expend all their energy attempting to dismantle it bit by bit.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 5, 2021)

Xzi said:


> The fact that they're afraid of Democrats winning Texas, of all places, speaks volumes.  God forbid they fix their party's platform and actually participate in democracy, rather than expend all their energy attempting to dismantle it bit by bit.



God forbid Californian's make their state habitable instead of fleeing to Texas and repeating their shitty policies.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 5, 2021)

COvid ID is racist


----------



## Xzi (Aug 5, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> God forbid Californian's make their state habitable instead of fleeing to Texas and repeating their shitty policies.


Neither state is gonna be habitable before long thanks to climate change.  And TBH Texas is just a shittier California anyway: less trees, trashier beaches, angrier/fatter people, and a gram of weed gets you ten years in jail.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 7, 2021)

So now they are taking animal paste.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 7, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> So now they are taking animal paste.


That de-wormer, right?  Not much better for humans than drinking Kool-Aid laced with cyanide, from what I understand.  Really cements the Republican party's status as a death cult.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 7, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> So now they are taking animal paste.



Just goes to show you people trust veterinary ivermectin over Biden, Fauci & pharma industry.  

Because they are malicious liars.


----------



## ut2k4master (Aug 7, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Just goes to show you people trust veterinary ivermectin over Biden, Fauci & pharma industry.
> 
> Because they are malicious liars.


youd have to actively distrust doctors worldwide for this to make sense but i guess the stereotype is true that americans (and in this case republicans especially) can only "think" as far as their own border


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 7, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> youd have to actively distrust doctors worldwide for this to make sense but i guess the stereotype is true that americans (and in this case republicans especially) can only "think" as far as their own border



Not true at all, plenty of doctors and researchers want data to look at ivermectin and HCQ or to even be able to discuss it without being censured.

The current state of medicine is top down and do as your told or be censored and ostracized.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Aug 7, 2021)

In germany they are now spreading the conspiracy of vaccine mosquitoes  If it prevents them from coming to even more super spreader e... sorry meant protests of course, then i'm all in on this one


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 7, 2021)

"they want data to look at ivermectin and HCQ"
just, LOL. There's *plenty* of data that does look at those, and proves they are not useful to mildly dangerous in most cases of covid, with *maybe* a yet-to-confirm (and currently looked-at by quite a few studies, in fact) exception for very old atients doing severe forms.
You implying that the data does not exist just proves either that you are specifically overlooking it for your own narrative, or that you are very uninformed on the subject you love saying so many falsities about.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 7, 2021)

ghjfdtg said:


> In germany they are now spreading the conspiracy of vaccine mosquitoes  If it prevents them from coming to even more super spreader e... sorry meant protests of course, then i'm all in on this one


So you mean that pest might do something good?


----------



## mrgone (Aug 7, 2021)

ghjfdtg said:


> In germany they are now spreading the conspiracy of vaccine mosquitoes  If it prevents them from coming to even more super spreader e... sorry meant protests of course, then i'm all in on this one


Really?
haven't heard that BS yet


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 7, 2021)

I guess I need to stop reading these threads as it's actually starting to piss me off how Americans are politicising every-freaking-thing under the sun. It's getting to the point where science is considered a subjective topic ffs.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 7, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I guess I need to stop reading these threads as it's actually starting to piss me off how Americans are politicising every-freaking-thing under the sun. It's getting to the point where science is considered a subjective topic ffs.


It's only one side in the United States that politicizes science, and there's a long history of it too. Vaccine denial, climate change denial, evolution denial, etc. Everybody should have seen this coming.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Aug 7, 2021)

linuxares said:


> So you mean that pest might do something good?


Everything is possible if you *believe* in it 



mrgone said:


> Really?
> haven't heard that BS yet


It's just starting to spread. Might be a troll attempt actually to trick the "Querdenker"/Q people into not going to protests. They of course believe it because apparently everything without a source is true.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 7, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I guess I need to stop reading these threads as it's actually starting to piss me off how Americans are politicising every-freaking-thing under the sun. It's getting to the point where science is considered a subjective topic ffs.



Politicians figured out a long time ago they can turn anything into a platform that garners votes. It doesn't help that many of these politicians are "actively Christian" in the sense that they use their religious crusade to further deny science in hopes of more votes. Modern day politics state wise has become little more than a popularity contest. This is why I hold firm that votes don't matter in the way we think they do; if someone wants to stay in power bad enough, "we the people" have very little voice in the matter. 

You think you're disgusted by modern America? Try living here.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's only one side in the United States that politicizes science, and there's a long history of it too. Vaccine denial, climate change denial, evolution denial, etc. Everybody should have seen this coming.



Said the leftist that thinks women can have a penis.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 7, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Said the leftist that thinks women can have a penis.



I feel like science deniers, more often than not, either don't understand the science, or parrot the same ridiculous rhetoric politicians use to attract uneducated voters.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 7, 2021)

Why is everything jimbo posts a fictional social construct that has no place in a modern society?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 7, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Said the leftist that thinks women can have a penis.


Exhibit A

I suggest you learn the difference between sex and gender. Since gender identity is not necessarily determined by what kind of genitals someone has, a trans woman can indeed have a penis. It sounds like someone also doesn't know the difference between a cisgender woman and a transgender woman.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 7, 2021)

And that's not even accounting for intersex people whose gender identity would be that of a woman. But This is completely off topic tbh, we were talking about how strange conspiracies around covid and the current vaccines for it are.
Did not hear yet of the mosquito one in europe either, but it's not surprising that someone would make something up like that, when you know some mosquitoes in some places around the world are a vector for spreading a few dangerous illnesses


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 7, 2021)

SARS-CoV-2 failure to infect or replicate in mosquitoes: an extreme challenge



> This research addresses public speculation that SARS-CoV-2 might be transmitted by mosquitoes. The World Health Organization has stated “To date there has been no information nor evidence to suggest that the new coronavirus could be transmitted by mosquitoes”. Here we provide the first experimental data to investigate the capacity of SARS-CoV-2 to infect and be transmitted by mosquitoes. Three widely distributed species of mosquito; Aedes aegypti, Ae. albopictus and Culex quinquefasciatus, representing the two most significant genera of arbovirus vectors that infect people, were tested. We demonstrate that even under extreme conditions, SARS-CoV-2 virus is unable to replicate in these mosquitoes and therefore cannot be transmitted to people even in the unlikely event that a mosquito fed upon a viremic host.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 7, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Just goes to show you people trust veterinary ivermectin over Biden, Fauci & pharma industry.


This might be true, but that doesn't make the people taking it any less incorrect. Also, may as well add Trump to that list, since he took the vaccine ages ago.


----------



## leon315 (Aug 7, 2021)

*PSA: IF you are under aged teen and you've got anti-vax parents but still wish to get vaccinated, go to this site to learn more about vaccine laws in ur state and seek help!

https://www.vaxteen.org/ *


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 8, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Not true at all, plenty of doctors and researchers want data to look at ivermectin and HCQ or to even be able to discuss it without being censured.
> 
> The current state of medicine is top down and do as your told or be censored and ostracized.



Fluffing dejavu. Already debunked 20 pages ago. Foxi was trying to push a SINGLE, NOT PEER REVIEWED STUDY that had a correlation of improvement via some questionable means, but multiple organizations worldwide have done more thorough tests and found it doesn't do anything to counter the virus directly, and at best might help with some symptoms. The current state of medicine in the USA is, in truth, very disgusting... but what many of these conspiracy nuts seem to have a hard time remembering is that THE WHOLE WORLD INCLUDING OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES HAS THEIR OWN PRIORITIES IN SAVING PEOPLE TOO! In the age of the internet, it is easier than ever to spread contradictory information if it is available... y'know... provided that it exists and can be proven. Jimmy claims to be living in a national forest hunting bison and doing drugs, so try not to take his claims as anything but comical.

I swear, same toilet different day...


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 8, 2021)

I guess i dont need masks since Obama is having a spreader even and not using them 
Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/TrumpJew2/status/1424373805296889856


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 8, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> I guess i dont need masks since Obama is having a spreader even and not using them
> https://twitter.com/TrumpJew2/status/1424373805296889856



How dare he attend an indoor, invite only party filled with people who most likely got vaccinated and are probably running a risk lower than catching the common cold. 

You know if Trump had taken proper precautions when covid first came around, we'd all probably be back to having spreaders with no masks.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 8, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> I guess i dont need masks since Obama is having a spreader even and not using them
> https://twitter.com/TrumpJew2/status/1424373805296889856



You don't get to call something a "spreader event" when there's no evidence that it was a spreader event. When we called Trump's rallies in 2020 "super spreader events," for example, it's because we had evidence of those rallies heavily spreading COVID-19 and death in their wakes.
The party was outdoors.
The party's guests were all vaccinated.
No laws nor guidances were violated.
It was a nice try though.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> You don't get to call something a "spreader event" when there's no evidence that it was a spreader event. When we called Trump's rallies in 2020 "super spreader events," for example, it's because we had evidence of those rallies heavily spreading COVID-19 and death in their wakes.
> The party was outdoors.
> The party's guests were all vaccinated.
> No laws nor guidances were violated.
> It was a nice try though.


Spreader events are fine when is Obama got it


----------



## Lacius (Aug 8, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Spreader events are fine when is Obama got it


That isn't even close to what I said.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 8, 2021)

Even if it was a spreader event, it is still not an excuse for others to toss out precautions.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 8, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Spreader events are fine when is Obama got it


Being illiterate must be hard...


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 9, 2021)

Me
Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/cantpretendtoo/status/1424156751180582912


----------



## Lacius (Aug 9, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Me
> https://twitter.com/cantpretendtoo/status/1424156751180582912


"Is certain that COVID-19 is being used for political purposes and public control."

To what end?


----------



## SG854 (Aug 9, 2021)

One of my family members was saying covid alters your DNA, ughh. And they aren't even consiracy theorist either, they have a life and are too busy for conspiracy theories.


----------



## Joe88 (Aug 9, 2021)

The media has been nonstop hyping every single holiday, event, political rally (but only gop ones) ect, as a super spreader event.

From 4th of july on, sturgis, trump rallies, labor day, halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, the super bowl and super bowl parties, easter, labor day... and none have had any validity.
Now we are back full circle and they are hyping sturgis again.
Super spreader is just a buzz word at this point to get clicks.

But it's its okay to have thousands upon thousands of people standing inches from each other most without masks to protest racism, trump, the police, supreme court.
Have thousands of people have a biden dance parties all across the nation in cities in completely jammed packed streets of people, while the virus was raging right after the election, some high ranking democrats even joining them maskless.
These are completely fine and not "super spreader" events even though the vaccine wasnt even out yet.
But any anti-lockdown protests was immediately attacked and called super spreaders.

Even the recent lollapalooza with people packed like sardines with no masks on got almost no attention.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 9, 2021)

Joe88 said:


> The media has been nonstop hyping every single holiday, event, political rally (but only gop ones) ect, as a super spreader event.
> 
> From 4th of july on, sturgis, trump rallies, labor day, halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, the super bowl and super bowl parties, easter, labor day... and none have had any validity.
> Now we are back full circle and they are hyping sturgis again.
> ...


https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/us/lollapalooza-chicago-coronavirus/index.html
https://time.com/6085927/lollapalooza-covid-19/
https://apnews.com/article/entertai...rus-pandemic-3d89f17f87c37af8e9aba81df12e3ef4
Seems it got little attention because it required everyone be vaccinated or provide proof of being covid free, or at least thats what they were claiming beforehand. According to Times article this wasnt enforced very well in person, and they bashed the festival for this.

And I do remember fox news and other right wing news stations pretty constantly bashing protesters for spreading covid, even though they didnt care when Trump had rallies. So yeah, there's a partisan divide between which events news stations cover, shocker, but the right wing stations are absolutely no cleaner in this. They didnt report covid risks from the attempt on the government from republicans, trumps rallies or any other republican specific events just as cnn or whatever didnt cover police protests.

Edit: "and none have had any validity"
Correct me if I'm wrong, doesnt data suggest a massive increase in covid cases after trump rallies and major holidays? At least in the early covid days


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 10, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/us/lollapalooza-chicago-coronavirus/index.html
> https://time.com/6085927/lollapalooza-covid-19/
> https://apnews.com/article/entertai...rus-pandemic-3d89f17f87c37af8e9aba81df12e3ef4
> Seems it got little attention because it required everyone be vaccinated or provide proof of being covid free, or at least thats what they were claiming beforehand. According to Times article this wasnt enforced very well in person, and they bashed the festival for this.
> ...



We don't care at all for the most part.  What we care about is the continual progressive hypocrisy they are routinely found engaging in.

The rules & recommendations only apply to the serfs.  There is a certain degree of practice what you preach or STFU.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 10, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> We don't care at all for the most part.  What we care about is the continual progressive hypocrisy they are routinely found engaging in.
> 
> The rules & recommendations only apply to the serfs.  There is a certain degree of practice what you preach or STFU.


I do practice what I preach personally, I havent engaged in any of these birthday parties or festivals or whatever. What Im arguing with here isnt that media is hypocritical, but the notion that the hypocrisy is specific to left wing media. The original post claimed that the media all hammered trump but gives a pass to left wing groups. Yet right wing media did the exact opposite, but they apparently get a pass?


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 10, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> I do practice what I preach personally, I havent engaged in any of these birthday parties or festivals or whatever. What Im arguing with here isnt that media is hypocritical, but the notion that the hypocrisy is specific to left wing media. The original post claimed that the media all hammered trump but gives a pass to left wing groups. Yet right wing media did the exact opposite, but they apparently get a pass?



Not addressing individuals or the media. I am addressing the laundry list of leftist politicians who got caught violating their own mandates.

There is little to no hypocrisy from the right because they aren't the ones pushing this nonsense, then going out and breaking the rules when they think the camera's are off.   Lightfoot, Pelosi, AOC, Cuomo, Whitemere, Bullock, Texas Democrats fleeing to portugal flying without masks,  I could cite examples all night but this post would be 10 pages.

There isn't a single prominent progressive that was instituting mandates that didn't get caught violating either a direct mandate or recommendations.

*THAT IS HYPOCRISY*


----------



## Xzi (Aug 10, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> There is little to no hypocrisy from the right because they aren't the ones pushing this nonsense


Every one of the Republican politicians and talking heads got the vaccine the second it was available, and continued to tell their viewers/listeners not to get it anyway.  That's hypocritical as hell.



jimbo13 said:


> There isn't a single prominent progressive that was instituting mandates that didn't get caught violating either a direct mandate or recommendations.


None of the mandates apply if you've been vaccinated and so has everybody else in the group you're in close contact with.  This isn't that hard to understand.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 10, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Every one of the Republican politicians and talking heads got the vaccine the second it was available, and continued to tell their viewers/listeners not to get it anyway.  That's hypocritical as hell.
> 
> 
> None of the mandates apply if you've been vaccinated and so has everybody else in the group you're in close contact with.  This isn't that hard to understand.



Obviously you don't understand a Calendar because when Newsom and others were violating these mandates they were still in effect, I realize with such a short attention span you don't think it's fair to cite 6 months ago as a fair example of appalling behavior but some of us can remember last year.  That's hard for you so, i'll give you a pass.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 10, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> when Newsom and others were violating these mandates they were still in effect


You didn't even mention Newsome in the post I quoted, let alone cite a source that included a date for these images.  When that happens I just have to assume you're spouting bullshit, because you usually are.

------​
In related news: anti-vaxxers recently "did their own research" and stormed a building which they thought was occupied by BBC News...but they had moved out all the way back in 2013.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...protesters-storm-bbc-hq-years-after-moved-out

And now for a joke: how many anti-vaxxers does it take to change a lightbulb?  None, they prefer to be kept in the dark.


----------



## smf (Aug 10, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Face it, the emperor has no clothes and brave doctors like him need to call out the BS.



The emperor has clothes and the people "calling out the BS" are charlatans.



jimbo13 said:


> Obviously you don't understand a Calendar because when Newsom and others were violating these mandates they were still in effect,



The comment was in regard to "There isn't a single prominent progressive that was instituting mandates that didn't get caught". Now you can only name one who did.

I completely believe that there are going to be cases of people on all sides who broke mandates. But I'm not convinced that they all did.

If you have evidence that they all did then sure, I'll read it.



Ibcap said:


> I do practice what I preach personally, I havent engaged in any of these birthday parties or festivals or whatever. What Im arguing with here isnt that media is hypocritical, but the notion that the hypocrisy is specific to left wing media. The original post claimed that the media all hammered trump but gives a pass to left wing groups. Yet right wing media did the exact opposite, but they apparently get a pass?



Generally people on the left will hammer everyone, those on the right will only hammer the ones on the left but then complain it's partisan when they get hammered.



Valwinz said:


> Me
> https://twitter.com/cantpretendtoo/status/1424156751180582912



Do you believe that mask wearers have the right to shoot non mask wearers?

A good mask wearing man with a gun saving everyone from the non mask wearer is something I'd have thought the right would have gone for.

Right wing politicians worldwide are certainly using covid misinformation to try to gain support.



Joe88 said:


> But it's its okay to have thousands upon thousands of people standing inches from each other most without masks to protest racism, trump, the police, supreme court.



I disagree. I don't think it is ok. Maybe not everyone at those protests thought it was "ok" either. But they had what they considered a more life threatening situation going on.

I don't think anyone could argue that going to a Halloween party was the same as protesting against white police murdering innocent black men.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 10, 2021)

Xzi said:


> And now for a joke: how many anti-vaxxers does it take to change a lightbulb?  None, they prefer to be kept in the dark.


Bold of you to assume that they even believe in light bulbs.


----------



## smf (Aug 10, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Bold of you to assume that they even believe in light bulbs.



Of course they do, god invented them.



Valwinz said:


> Spreader events are fine when is Obama got it



Obama isn't in government, so I'm not sure why you're obsessed with him.

If Obama had held an event like Trump did, then I would absolutely condemn him as much as I would Trump.

The problem for you of course is that Obama isn't as dumb or arrogant as Trump



jimbo13 said:


> Just goes to show you people trust veterinary ivermectin over Biden, Fauci & pharma industry.
> 
> Because they are malicious liars.



No, it just goes to show how dumb people are. If you can fool someone into thinking that vaccines make you magnetic, or fool them into thinking vaccines contain bill gates gps trackers, then you can fool them into anything.



JoeBloggs777 said:


> My wife works in A&E in the UK. unvaccinated people are  now turning up with covid and are now worried when they had months to take the vaccines.



Anti vaxxers are dying and their relatives are talking to the news papers begging people to stop listening to the anti vaxxer lies.

The anti vax movement is just a way of herding the sheeple. They are dumb as fuck.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...protesters-storm-bbc-hq-years-after-moved-out

_“Not sure what protesters were hoping to achieve, but all they would’ve found was me, Jane, Nadia and Penny on Loose Women talking about the menopause,” she said._

https://www.indy100.com/news/bbc-anti-vaxxers-lockdown-protest-memes-b1899861

_Anti-vaxxers and anti-lockdowners don’t listen to MSM lies. They do their own research. Which is why they end up protesting against the BBC at a building the BBC left 8 years ago

_
I don't think you can put into words just how dumb anti vaxxers are. They look like they are capable of rational thought, on the face of it they got dressed and can eat for themselves, but they have some specific mental retardation. Similar to the deformity in the brain of people who like donald trump.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 10, 2021)

smf said:


> No, it just goes to show how dumb people are. If you can fool someone into thinking that vaccines make you magnetic, or fool them into thinking vaccines contain bill gates gps trackers, then you can fool them into anything.



Lulz, like anyone who lives in a country with a Monarch and TV licenses in 2021 has any ground to accuse others of being fooled.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 10, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Lulz, like anyone who lives in a country with a Monarch and TV licenses in 2021 has any ground to accuse others of being fooled.


Jimbo, your response to @smf is nothing but an ad hominem attack. Smf made a lot of good points, and instead of addressing any of them, you merely discounted them because of where he lives. That should be embarrassing for you, and it should show anyone reading the posts in this thread that you aren't at all interested in having good-faith conversations.

Whether or not you disagree with a particular country's policies, it has no bearing on whether or not an individual from that country is foolish, and it's utterly irrelevant to the conversation.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Jimbo, your response to @smf is nothing but an ad hominem attack. Smf made a lot of good points, and instead of addressing any of them, you merely discounted them because of where he lives. That should be embarrassing for you, and it should show anyone reading the posts in this thread that you aren't at all interested in having good-faith conversations.
> 
> Whether or not you disagree with a particular country's policies, it has no bearing on whether or not an individual from that country is foolish, and it's utterly irrelevant to the conversation.



Not any more ad-hominem than ridiculous claims of why people choose not to use non FDA approved drugs whose principal researcher states they should not be used on humans.


----------



## smf (Aug 10, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Lulz, like anyone who lives in a country with a Monarch and TV licenses in 2021 has any ground to accuse others of being fooled.



We have an nhs too. You are so foolish that you don't actually know what is foolish or not.

The monarchy is just a rich family that are more slaves to us than we are to them.

TV licenses are bound to go at some point and like brexit it will be a pyrrhic victory.

So yeah, I have 100% grounds to accuse others of being fooled. Because, well, you're fools.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 10, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Not any more ad-hominem than ridiculous claims of why people choose not to use non FDA approved drugs whose principal researcher states they should not be used on humans.



Uh... no, actually. Entirely more ad-hominem than pointing out actual repercussions for people not getting the vaccine. Swing and a miss, Jimbo.

Also, already debunked the "principal researcher" claim earlier, and his statement had nothing to do with covid19 because he was dead before it came about. Strike two~


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 10, 2021)

pic.twitter.com/28IyakG7dY— Dr. Richard Harambe (@Richard_Harambe) August 9, 2021

we are 8 months into Biden and he still does not have this under control i guess he got no plan

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Joe88 said:


> The media has been nonstop hyping every single holiday, event, political rally (but only gop ones) ect, as a super spreader event.
> 
> From 4th of july on, sturgis, trump rallies, labor day, halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, the super bowl and super bowl parties, easter, labor day... and none have had any validity.
> Now we are back full circle and they are hyping sturgis again.
> ...


Because Biden is president is ok when it happen when he is president


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 10, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> https://twitter.com/Richard_Harambe/status/1424821999306690562
> we are 8 months into Biden and he still does not have this under control i guess he got no plan



Except that death rates and significant complications are on the whole lowering, despite reopening more and more since the end of the Trump presidency, and people are going back to work amidst all this. In other words...







To be fair, there is a lot of nuance to this and honestly Biden isn't squarely to blame for the improvement... but he absolutely did more than his predecessor.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 10, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Not any more ad-hominem than ridiculous claims of why people choose not to use non FDA approved drugs whose principal researcher states they should not be used on humans.


The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, we are probably only weeks away from full FDA approval, and the fact that the vaccines are under emergency use authorization has nothing to do with the willful ignorance and stupidity associated with the aforementioned microchip claims, etc.

Edit: And you also don't seem to know what an ad hominem is.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 10, 2021)

The footage shows the Democrat at a wedding in Wayne County, Michigan, where community transmission is "substantial." https://t.co/iPdBDXqxoa— Newsweek (@Newsweek) August 10, 2021

Rules for you not for the DEMS


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 10, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> https://twitter.com/Newsweek/status/1425122149271019520
> Rules for you not for the DEMS



At this point the arguments presented by the right are laughable.

If the party is a private event, proper precautions are taken, and at least a majority of the people, including the congress woman herself, are vaccinated, how is the virus going to spread? Next we'll be hearing on TMZ how democrats aren't wearing masks in their own homes. What an outrage.

"But democrats are forcing our kids to wear masks at school!"

Yeah, cuz they know anti vaxxers exist and have no problem sending their unvaccinated spawn to a public school. Not to mention the vaccine isn't recommended for children, more than likely a safety precaution, which means the virus is more likely to spread in a public school than a private event.

Jesus could this be any harder to understand?


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 10, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> https://twitter.com/Newsweek/status/1425122149271019520
> Rules for you not for the DEMS


Was there a law against this in her area? If not then saying that she broke a rule is blatant lying and malicious misinformation


----------



## SG854 (Aug 10, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> Next we'll be hearing on TMZ how democrats aren't wearing masks in their own homes. What an outrage.


That complaint already happened


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 10, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> At this point the arguments presented by the right are laughable.
> 
> If the party is a private event, proper precautions are taken, and at least a majority of the people, including the congress woman herself, are vaccinated, how is the virus going to spread? Next we'll be hearing on TMZ how democrats aren't wearing masks in their own homes. What an outrage.


I don't see how the complaint is unreasonable if the wedding had multiple guests from different households. During the pandemic people were not allowed to hold wedding celebrations, they couldn't visit their loved ones in hospitals, in some cases couldn't even see them on their deathbeds, or organise funerals and wakes to allow the family to say their farewells and grieve. We don't live under a system that divides people into those who are equal and those who are "equal-er" - when Pelosi had her hair done in a salon, it wasn't a big deal because she was having her hair done, it was a big deal because nobody else could, and salon owners across the country couldn't even open their businesses to the public. I'm not sure what the guidance is in this particular state, however an event for 100+ people who are partying maskless in an area where transmission rates are apparently high seems irresponsible. We already know that the Delta variant's viral load in the nasal passages is pretty much unaffected by vaccination - there's as much of it in a vaccinated as in an unvaccinated person. While those who are vaccinated have a significantly lower risk of contracting the disease, they can still conceivably pass it on if they're carrying the virus on their body or clothing. As a person who firmly believes in the "better safe than sorry" principle I still avoid large gatherings of strangers whenever possible, and I advise others to do the same until transmission rates are under control.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't see how the complaint is unreasonable if the wedding had multiple guests from different households. During the pandemic people were not allowed to hold wedding celebrations, they couldn't visit their loved ones in hospitals, in some cases couldn't even see them on their deathbeds, or organise funerals and wakes to allow the family to say their farewells and grieve. We don't live under a system that divides people into those who are equal and those who are "equal-er" - when Pelosi had her hair done in a salon, it wasn't a big deal because she was having her hair done, it was a big deal because nobody else could, and salon owners across the country couldn't even open their businesses to the public.



Correct, but as you said, that happened during the pandemic. Here in the states we've been "pandemic" free for a while now, and as long as people take proper precautions, they can live a more "normal" life. Of course, that's also assuming everyone involved at this particular event took the proper precautions, which we may not fully know one way or another. That's a problem of perception, probably another thread entirely. 



Foxi4 said:


> I'm not sure what the guidance is in this particular state, however an event for 100+ people who are partying maskless in an area where transmission rates are apparently high seems irresponsible. We already know that the Delta variant's viral load in the nasal passages is pretty much unaffected by vaccination - there's as much of it in a vaccinated as in an unvaccinated person. While those who are vaccinated have a significantly lower risk of contracting the disease, they can still conceivably pass it on if they're carrying the virus on their body or clothing. As a person who firmly believes in the "better safe than sorry" principle I still avoid large gatherings of strangers whenever possible, and I advise others to do the same until transmission rates are under control.



And for the most part, I don't disagree. I'm fully vaccinated, hate wearing a mask, but I still am cautious about large crowds (and still wear a mask in places where it's warranted) because honestly, people are gross. Covid or not I'd rather stay away from large crowds, and I would advise anyone who isn't feeling good or is unsure about their adversity to spreading to be cautious as well.


----------



## cearp (Aug 10, 2021)

I'm all for the idea of getting vaccinated, but the people who haven't so far, I don't think many will change their mind so easily. Some of the adverts I see now online (saw some on facebook), trying to get younger people to vaccinate are so dumb and cheesy - really trying hard in an embarrassing way to appeal to the younger generation, and from reading the comments I was not alone.



jimbo13 said:


> Lulz, like anyone who lives in a country with a Monarch and TV licenses in 2021 has any ground to accuse others of being fooled.


lol what did Sweden do to you?


----------



## scroeffie1984 (Aug 10, 2021)

this so called virus is so smart that when you eat you can take off your mask it wil leave you alone ,and when you are done eating its going active again and it wil atack you 
if you want to take the vaccine thats fine i respect that ,but dont try to force it upon me ! i cant make a person sick that had the vaccine ,if some one says yess you can make me sick ,than the vaccine you took is based on fake science or you took a placebo !!


----------



## ut2k4master (Aug 10, 2021)

scroeffie1984 said:


> this so called virus is so smart that when you eat you can take off your mask it wil leave you alone ,and when you are done eating its going active again and it wil atack you


are you eating with your ass or what other solution do you have than to remove your mask while eating?


----------



## scroeffie1984 (Aug 10, 2021)

this virus is so smart it knows the difference between night time and day time 
this virus is so smart it knows the difference between 2 feet  6.2 feet and 8 feet 
this virus is so smart it knows when obama has a party with 100+ people and 3 people sitting in a car  
this virus is so smart it knows the difference between biden and a child wearing a mask


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 10, 2021)

scroeffie1984 said:


> this virus is so smart it knows the difference between night time and day time
> this virus is so smart it knows the difference between 2 feet  6.2 feet and 8 feet
> this virus is so smart it knows when obama has a party with 100+ people and 3 people sitting in a car
> this virus is so smart it knows the difference between biden and a child wearing a mask


I suspect you and the virus happen to share the same iq =3


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 10, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I suspect you and the virus happen to share the same iq =3



I bet the virus has all those X1 hacks people are looking for.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 10, 2021)

Dear lord, how low do the "arguments" against "fake science" vaccines have to go? This is really getting more and more ridiculous by the hour...

it's on the level of "if you die in a car crash with your seatbelt on, it's because fake science seatbelts don't protect you", like come on, you can do better than that peeps


----------



## gene0915 (Aug 11, 2021)

Xzi said:


> And now for a joke: how many anti-vaxxers does it take to change a lightbulb?  None, they prefer to be kept in the dark.



I got a joke too.... 

Q: How many liberals looked the other way when AOC put on her mask for a photo-op and took it off as soon as the picture was snapped?

A: All of them


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I got a joke too....
> 
> Q: How many liberals looked the other way when AOC put on her mask for a photo-op and took it off as soon as the picture was snapped?
> 
> A: All of them



They're vaccinated and outdoors. Nice try at a "gotcha" though.

Edit: She also put on the mask just before Ed Markey, 75 years old, came over.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 11, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> I got a joke too....
> 
> Q: How many liberals looked the other way when AOC put on her mask for a photo-op and took it off as soon as the picture was snapped?
> 
> A: All of them


You plague rats just don't get it.  The rest of us were never gonna wait decades for you to get a goddamn clue.  Some of us _actually_ want a return to normalcy instead of just pretending we do for the sake of political posturing.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 11, 2021)

Xzi said:


> You plague rats just don't get it.  The rest of us were never gonna wait decades for you to get a goddamn clue.  Some of us _actually_ want a return to normalcy instead of just pretending we do for the sake of political posturing.



If you want to return to normalcy do it, Been on normalcy since day one.  Were not going to comply.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 11, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> If you want to return to normalcy do it, Been on normalcy since day one.  Were not going to comply.


No I understand that, you won't figure out how badly you've fucked up until you're literally on your death bed, and if this pandemic doesn't kill you off the next one probably will.  Just don't bitch about it when some of us choose to ditch masks because we've already done our part to protect ourselves and our communities by getting vaccinated.

And hoo boy, if you think Republicans were mad about losing Georgia in this last election, just wait until Texas also flips blue because of COVID deaths.  I'm sure you're really gonna be pulling out all the stops on conspiracy theories after that.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 11, 2021)

Xzi said:


> ...And hoo boy, if you think Republicans were mad about losing Georgia in this last election, just wait until Texas also flips blue because of COVID deaths.  I'm sure you're really gonna be pulling out all the stops on conspiracy theories after that.



10/1 on odds they'll cry voter fraud again. That seems to be the go to response to anyone they don't like getting elected.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Been on normalcy since day one.  Were not going to comply.


These are the second-to-last words of many of the 550 Americans (and rising) dying of COVID-19 each day. Their actual last words are along the lines of "please give me the vaccine" and "I regret not getting vaccinated."

Your words are as sad as they are foolish.


----------



## VegetaSSJBlue321Mystic (Aug 11, 2021)

x65943 said:


> Will you get the covid vaccine? And if so, which one - the RNA vaccine or the traditional one?
> 
> I'm scheduled to get the pfizer one soon. There have been very few reports of anaphylaxis so far, but it has been managed effectively with epinephrine.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I've gotten both of my Pfitzer shots. The first one had no side effects but the second one I had chills for about 8 hours and then heat flashes for another 10 or so hours but I was eventaully fine after about 3 days.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 11, 2021)

Xzi said:


> And hoo boy, if you think Republicans were mad about losing Georgia in this last election, just wait until Texas also flips blue because of COVID deaths.  I'm sure you're really gonna be pulling out all the stops on conspiracy theories after that.


I know it isn't as big as a flip, but at this rate, Florida could very well share the same fate.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 11, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> I know it isn't as big as a flip, but at this rate, Florida could very well share the same fate.


Bugs has a different solution for dealing with Florida.


----------



## Xen0 (Aug 11, 2021)

Hey guys. About to get a vaccine. Laws and work kinda force me but whatever.

I'm sure there are experts here. Can you tell me the differences of J&J and BioNTech in Terms of side effects and probabilities? I know J&J only needs one shot and is less effective. More concerned about rare side effects (heart and stuff)


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 11, 2021)

exact "probabilities" (the actual term is "incidence" here, in fact) are not known precisely, because that's what they are: rare. They depend a lot on the conditions of the people who get them, including any not-known infections going on at the time, allergies and so on. At any rate, if you're where your flag says you are, I would not be too worried, there's barely any record of anything that hasn't been recovered from fully with proper medical care after the vaccine in our regions. 
With any new medication, including and especially new vaccines, there's always increased surveillance of any undesirable effects (regardless of whether they are linked to the new medication or not, in fact), so they can be treated accordingly immediately to avoid any grave outcome. It's in particular still unclear that some of the reported effects are really due to the vaccine, as numbers are comparable (sometimes even lower due to statistic fluctuations) to general population, so the only things we can undoubtedly link to those vaccines specifically are the more common ones: muscle aches, mild to medium fevers for the following ~48hrs, etc, as well as allergic reactions in some rare cases (usually immediate or in the ~15mn following the injection, which is why you stay in observation during that time)

Other more rare things may or may not be linked to it, we really don't know at the end of the day since the numbers are so similar to unvaccinated cases of the same effects, and you should be reporting anything unusual to your health authorities so it can be recorded and investigated anyway (and if it forebodes anything potentially harmful, so they can take care of you before it gets to that hopefully)


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 11, 2021)

Wait a minute 
Teen boys are 14 TIMES more likely to experience rare heart inflammation after receiving Covid vaccine https://t.co/fRTN0K2b6N— Daily Mail Online (@MailOnline) August 11, 2021


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> Hey guys. About to get a vaccine. Laws and work kinda force me but whatever.
> 
> I'm sure there are experts here. Can you tell me the differences of J&J and BioNTech in Terms of side effects and probabilities? I know J&J only needs one shot and is less effective. More concerned about rare side effects (heart and stuff)


My understanding is the minor side effects (fatigue, etc.) are almost equally probable regardless of which vaccine you get. These side effects are normal signs that your body is building protection. If you get one of the mRNA vaccines, mild side effects are more likely after the second dose (unless you've already had COVID-19).

Anecdotally, I've heard a larger percentage of people who received one of the mRNA vaccines complain about side effects vs. people who received the J&J vaccine. Given the mRNA vaccines produce a more robust immune response, it would make sense that their side effects might be more likely.

The probability of serious side effects with the vaccines is so low that it probably isn't worth obsessing over. You can find more information in the three links below. The blood clots with the J&J vaccine mostly affect older females, and the heart inflammation issues with the mRNA vaccines mostly affect younger males. Both side effects are exceedingly rare regardless, but if you're playing the odds, and your main concerns are the serious side effects, you should maybe get the one unlikelier to affect your demographic group. In other words, get an mRNA vaccine if you're an older female, but get the J&J vaccine if you're a younger male.

Possible side effects with COVID-19 vaccines: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/expect/after.html
Rare possibility of heart issues after mRNA vaccines: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html
Rare possibility of blood clots in J&J vaccine: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/JJUpdate.html
In summary, these are the basic guidelines I would follow:

Get whichever vaccine you can get the soonest.
If you have a choice which vaccine you can get, and you can get them equally early, get one of the mRNA vaccines for the increased efficacy against COVID-19, unless there's a medical reason why you shouldn't.
If your concerns are the serious side effects, even though they're extraordinarily rare, get the one less likely to affect you negatively.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 11, 2021)

Wait a minute 
Teen boys are 14 TIMES more likely to experience rare heart inflammation after receiving Covid vaccine https://t.co/fRTN0K2b6N— Daily Mail Online (@MailOnline) August 11, 2021


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Wait a minute
> https://twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1425396609328861188


We've known for a long time that heart inflammation issues with the mRNA vaccines, while exceedingly rare, are more likely to affect younger males (older than 16) vs. other groups. We also know that blood clot issues with the J&J vaccines, while also exceedingly rare, are more likely to affect older females (younger than 50) vs. other groups.

These are not reasons to not get vaccinated, since they're extraordinarily rare, but if these very rare side effects are a concern to you, get the other vaccine. It should also be noted that these rare side effects, while potentially serious, are rarely life-threatening at this point now that we are aware of them.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 11, 2021)

Okay so let's debunk this real quick, luckilly the dailymail, while not very good at transcribing scientific studies, links to them in their articles so we can look at it first hand.
The conclusions of said study:



> *Conclusions and Relevance*  In this small case series study, myocarditis was diagnosed in children after COVID-19 vaccination, most commonly in boys after the second dose. In this case series, in short-term follow-up, patients were mildly affected. The long-term risks associated with postvaccination myocarditis remain unknown. Larger studies with longer follow-up are needed to inform recommendations for COVID-19 vaccination in this population.



Note that patients were mildly affected, that this is a small case series study which means it has little to no relevance statistically speaking, and that they acknowledge that themselves: The long-term risks associated with postvaccination myocarditis remain unknown. Larger studies with longer follow-up are needed to inform recommendations.

Hopefully it's clear enough that you need to go further than the title of the article before spewing nonsense in a spam of the same post all over again, @Valwinz


In conclusion, we have a suspicion that it may be related to the vaccine, but it may also not (15 patients with the number of actually vaccinated people is very close to the incidence of those heart inflammation in general population!)
And we are talking about it, we are treating it as a potential side-effect and monitoring it and getting those patients taken care of, so what's the f*****g problem? It's not like it's hidden under the carpet, or like people that are taking this into consideration were censored or silenced or anything. Quite the reverse in fact. But you are making a case of something that is neither that important nor that relevant.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Okay so let's debunk this real quick, luckilly the dailymail, while not very good at transcribing scientific studies, links to them in their articles so we can look at it first hand.
> The conclusions of said study:
> 
> 
> ...


From @Valwinz's own source:

None of the patients died or required intensive care, and all were out of the hospital within five days
The findings indicate heart inflammation is a serious risk for teen boys who get vaccinated, but it's a much lower risk than getting Covid itself


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 11, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> Hey guys. About to get a vaccine. Laws and work kinda force me but whatever.
> 
> I'm sure there are experts here. Can you tell me the differences of J&J and BioNTech in Terms of side effects and probabilities? I know J&J only needs one shot and is less effective. More concerned about rare side effects (heart and stuff)


In terms of rare side effects J&J seems to cause more of them, primarily related to the cardiovascular system IIRC. It's also only 60-odd % effective, so I wouldn't stop taking precautions on odds slightly better than those of a coin toss. If you have the option to choose, choose the more effective option. I used to be a huge J&J advocate, but changed my mind based on numbers - the booster is inconvenient, but the efficacy is far superior. Now I only recommend J&J for those who have serious concerns about long-term effects of mRNA vaccines - it's better than nothing, but the other options provide objectively better protection.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 11, 2021)

Can you hear them Lacius 
Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/CarrieQThinks/status/1425492766126051331


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Can you hear them Lacius
> https://twitter.com/CarrieQThinks/status/1425492766126051331



Imagine being this triggered over a piece of fabric lol. Truly pathetic.


----------



## seany1990 (Aug 11, 2021)

American conservatives will single-handedly keep this world-wide pandemic going for 5 more years.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Can you hear them Lacius


I hear a bunch of people too stupid to understand:

Masks help prevent the spread of the disease.
It is in their best interest, and the best interest of those around them, to wear masks.
We wouldn't be having to wear masks if they had gotten vaccinated.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 11, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I hear a bunch of people too stupid to understand:
> 
> Masks help prevent the spread of the disease.
> It is in their best interest, and the best interest of those around them, to wear masks.
> We wouldn't be having to wear masks if they had gotten vaccinated.


So the mask can stop the virus it filters it?


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 11, 2021)

All Valwinz does in these threads is post misinformation, get called out on it, refuse to back up his original 'source', and repeat. At least jimbo pretends to engage in actual debate. Id sayValwinz should just be ignored so he can stop getting the attention he clearly wants, but then he would just continue posting propaganda. When people ask why FB and Twitter need 'fake news' filters, its because of people like him.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> At least 3 studies so far have concluded surgeons masks and cloth masks do nothing measurable to prevent the spread of covid-19.
> 
> Off the top of my head one was danmask-19.
> 
> ...



Post the studies


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> I gave one of the study names. So anyone can google it.  That was why I listed the name, I remember that one well.  The others I don't recall but I am sure they can be found by searching they might even be linked on apcjournals.
> 
> This is for Danmask-19
> 
> Actually I cannot post links yet, so you can just google danmask-19 it should be in the top 3 hits.



https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4586

Found it, thanks! The Danish report was actually inconclusive but correlated with masks being useful! Thank you for your misinformation ~

Maybe next time read the study and not just the hype headline?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

@Valwinz @nintendo19 Masks, and mask mandates, have been demonstrated to be effective at slowing the spread of COVID-19.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

The Danish study, and its problems, are also addressed.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> The CDC also has documentation on their website showing RCT's that show surgical masks make no difference in the spread of influenza.  And covid-19 is considerably more transmissible then influenza.  The particle size is much smaller.  (How it can stay airborne for hours)
> 
> So yes you will have to excuse me if I don't believe what they say now about Covid-19.
> 
> ...



You seem to assume covid 19 is easily transmissible through the air after 6 feet of distance and a mask. This is part of why outside gatherings are more encouraged, and why mask mandates are returning. The function of a mask isn't to filter the air, it is to minimize fluid secretions, i.e. saliva and mucus, in contaminated folk. Also, correlation!= causation, and... well, Lacius added another fun link.

In summary, please stop spreading misinformation and learn from better sources.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> The CDC also has documentation on their website showing RCT's that show surgical masks make no difference in the spread of influenza.  And covid-19 is considerably more transmissible then influenza.  The particle size is much smaller.  (How it can stay airborne for hours)
> 
> So yes you will have to excuse me if I don't believe what they say now about Covid-19.
> 
> ...


"Smoke particles" are far smaller than the saliva droplets (which contain the virus) that masks are meant to block.

You're willfully misrepresenting and ignoring the science and the scientific studies on the CDC page. Why?


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Covid particles can remain airborne  in a room for hours, you did not know this?
> 
> Do you know how small something needs to be to remain airborne in a room for hours?
> 
> You seem to have not read what I wrote.



Hey man so let me get this straight.

Doctors that have been wearing masks in the operating room for the past century are just a bunch of dumbasses, right? Since the masks don't do anything and you clearly know better than them? What a bunch of stupid fucking doctors, am I right?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Covid particles can remain airborne  in a room for hours, you did not know this?
> 
> Do you know how small something needs to be to remain airborne in a room for hours?
> 
> You seem to have not read what I wrote.


Nobody is arguing that masks are 100% effective. That being said, COVID-19 is primarily transmitted by droplet inhalation, and masks help to reduce the odds of that happening. Masks, and mask mandates, are effective. Any argument to the contrary is willfully ignoring the science and the scientific studies.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Covid particles can remain airborne  in a room for hours, you did not know this?
> 
> Do you know how small something needs to be to remain airborne in a room for hours?
> 
> You seem to have not read what I wrote.



And you seen to not understand gradual diffusal, potency, and the fact that masks were never the total answer, but a proven effective way to minimize the virus. Seriously, what are you even advocating for? Mask removal because fk it nothing matters? Does this hurt you in some way?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Are these doctors working on positive covid-19 patients?  You seem to be trying to tie two different things together.  I am not arguing against the use of surgeons masks for other things.
> 
> I don't understand why you guys are ignoring the facts we know.  We know it can be airborne and people can catch it, we know the particle size that is airborne, and we know what surgeons masks and cloth masks can filter up to.


And we know the primary source of infection is saliva droplet inhalation, and we know that masks are effective at reducing transmission. There is one person here who is ignoring facts, and it isn't us.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Are these doctors working on positive covid-19 patients?  You seem to be trying to tie two different things together.  I am not arguing against the use of surgeons masks for other things.
> 
> I don't understand why you guys are ignoring the facts we know.  We know it can be airborne and people can catch it, we know the particle size that is airborne, and we know what surgeons masks and cloth masks can filter up to.



I'm not tying shit together. You said it yourself, masks don't work, so those doctors that have been wearing masks for the past century must be so fucking dumb. Maybe next time I'm at the dentist I'll ask him to take his mask off so he can cough right in my mouth too since the masks don't do anything to stop that. Dumb fucking dentists too, right? I can't believe we have a grade A medical genius in here.

You still haven't posted the studies. Put up or shut up.

I also can't wait to find out who you're an alt/sockpuppet for.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> You just argued above that Covid is not airborne basically.
> 
> And told me to quit spreading misinformation.
> 
> ...



Post a link to the EPA article that is saying that.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> You just argued above that Covid is not airborne basically.
> 
> And told me to quit spreading misinformation.
> 
> ...



Your myopic focus on it being airborne is impressive. And also sad. Nobody questioned if it was airborne, but we are pointing out the fact that the PRIMARY transmission medium is fluid, which masks help to protect against. Please, just stop. This is getting silly.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> You think I would lie about that? LOL
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/ind...=Transmission of COVID-19,hours in some cases.



I do because two paragraphs later they recommend wearing face masks to help prevent the spread. So yeah, you're full of shit.



> There are straightforward steps that can be taken to reduce the potential for airborne transmission of COVID-19 and the focus of this material is on those measures. The layout and design of a building, as well as occupancy and type of heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system, can all impact potential airborne spread of the virus. Although improvements to ventilation and air cleaning cannot on their own eliminate the risk of airborne transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, *EPA recommends* increasing ventilation with outdoor air and air filtration as important components of a larger strategy that may include physical distancing, *wearing cloth face coverings or masks*, surface cleaning , handwashing, and other precautions. Consult guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and local authorities on current guidelines on the use of masks.



Emphasis mine.

Edit - also just want to point out that they recommend to consult CDC guidance on the current guidelines for the use of masks, indicating that they are well aware they are not the proper avenue for that information to be coming from.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Wow pretty combative.
> 
> Sorry you don't understand my point.  I never said there is no benefit to masks.
> 
> ...


The article you linked to is an explanation, in part, for why mask-wearing is recommended.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> So what about it being airborne now you believe me because you seemed to skip over that after demanding proof.  I proved the EPA said this and you say I am full of shit.
> 
> So back to the start, IF covid-19 particles can remain airborne for hours, do you know how small they are?
> 
> You believe a surgeons mask or a cloth mask will filter a particle out of this size?


As your own article states, COVID-19 infection largely occurs from saliva droplet inhalation, and masks are effective at blocking some droplets of varying sizes. In addition, you are ignoring the preponderance of studies that show masks and mask mandates to work. Why?


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> So what about it being airborne now you believe me because you seemed to skip over that after demanding proof.  I proved the EPA said this and you say I am full of shit.
> 
> So back to the start, IF covid-19 particles can remain airborne for hours, do you know how small they are?
> 
> You believe a surgeons mask or a cloth mask will filter a particle out of this size?


You likely missed my post amidst the dog pile, but this thread has to, by necessity, be the dunk hour v antimask/antivax folk due to the severity of the situation. Extraordinary claims like yours requires extraordinary evidence, and as we've all stated a few times now, your sources mainly serve to prove you wrong.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> I proved the EPA said this and you say I am full of shit.



Because you're deliberately posting partial information that is twisted to fit your own agenda without painting the full picture that proves your agenda wrong, yes. That is what we like to call "full of shit"



nintendo19 said:


> IF covid-19 particles can remain airborne for hours, do you know how small they are?



I know that they're called virions, for one, not particles. I know that the size of one SARS-CoV-2 virion is ~0.1 μm because that's easily able to be Googled. I also know that when a person exhales, you're not just breathing 100% purely virions with nothing else in your exhalation. I know that the size of a respiratory droplet, which is what masks are claimed to HELP prevent the spread of, are considered to be larger than 5 μm in size, so potentially 500x larger than a single SARS-CoV-2 virion (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143281/) And I know that masks offer both mechanical and electrostatic filtration that HELPS to reduce the amount of respiratory droplets you spread of a wide variety of sizes, larger and smaller than 5 μm. (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252)

I also know that you're not an expert in this field, and I know that I'm not either. I also know that the prevailing world-wide recommendation points to masks being partially helpful in preventing the spread, and I know that you're choosing to put your hands on your ears and pretend you can't hear it.



nintendo19 said:


> You believe a surgeons mask or a cloth mask will filter a particle out of this size?



Put on a mask, hold a piece of tissue in front of your mouth, and cough. Hack up both lungs if you want. How much saliva do you see on it? Take the mask off and do it again. You may see some, you may not. Not every cough, sneeze, or exhale is the same. Not every mask is the same. There's no silver bullet or else we'd have used it already and we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? The best we can do right now is to do everything in our power to try to help reduce the rate at which it spread. Which is what some of us have been trying to stress for the past year and a half, meanwhile we have people like you that deliberately do the opposite and then bitch and moan and complain when nothing works and you have to face the consequences of your own dumbass actions.

Edit 2 - in fact, I'll do you one better. Do the same but don't even bother looking at how much saliva is on it, hold it one handed and look at how much it moves each time. You'll very, very easily see that if absolutely nothing else with the mask on the velocity of your exhaled air, and thus the respiratory droplets and any SARS-CoV-2 "particles", as you like to call them, that are contained within, are not going to go nearly as far. This is a science experiment that a literal third grader could come up with, dude. This isn't some high IQ big brain shit, and if it was, you're not qualified to talk on it like you're an expert.

Edit:



nintendo19 said:


> Who is spreading misinformation here?



You. You are spreading misinformation.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 11, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> You are twisting what I said to meet your definition of misinformation. I was told to post a link to an EPA article claiming Covid-19 was airborne and could travel greater than 6 feet. I did that.
> 
> You then all say, oh they say to wear masks, and then try to ignore the fact that basically the entire EPA article is focused on the fact that Covid-19 is airborne and a vector for transmission.



Dude nobody has argued it couldn't. If you think there's some kind of magic force field that stops it after 6 feet, that's on you. Most reasonable people understand that it's a suggestion to help slow the spread, not a silver bullet cure. Remember that bit I said about not having a silver bullet?



nintendo19 said:


> From the EPA article this is the only portion that deals with masks that I can see:
> 
> There are straightforward steps that can be taken to reduce the potential for airborne transmission of COVID-19 and the focus of this material is on those measures. The layout and design of a building, as well as occupancy and type of heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) system, can all impact potential airborne spread of the virus. Although improvements to ventilation and air cleaning cannot on their own eliminate the risk of airborne transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, EPA recommends increasing ventilation with outdoor air and air filtration as important components of a larger strategy that *may *include physical distancing, wearing cloth face coverings or masks, surface cleaning , handwashing, and other precautions. Consult guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and local authorities on current guidelines on the use of masks.



Thanks, I literally already posted that.



nintendo19 said:


> They say it MAY help, not that it does. They focus more on air exchange and air movement. Which makes sense to me.



Yes, it may help. They also say that you should consult the CDC instead of the EPA on the topic of masks.



nintendo19 said:


> You keep trying to tie different things together as an illustration to how my logic is flawed. Like surgeons wearing masks, Like that has anything to do with Covid-19 and how it propagates. If you are going to associate what I am saying to something completely unrelated then yes it is misinformation but that is NOT what I was saying. That seems to be you muddying the waters.



You keep trying to imply that this entire situation exists in a vacuum, that there is no possible way there could be other variables that come into play with any of it, and that everything that's ever been said about it is 100% magic guaranteed to never ever change.



nintendo19 said:


> For admitting you are not an expert you seem to suggest you know exactly how the virus propagates while wearing a mask.



Quite the contrary, I already said I'm not an expert. I also said you're not either.



nintendo19 said:


> If numerous places have determined that Covid-19 can exist in the air for hours that indicates exactly how small it can be.



OK? This was never disputed, so... congrats on being able to state the obvious?



nintendo19 said:


> Surgeons masks and cloth masks will not stop something that small. They are not capable.of doing that.



Provide proof.



nintendo19 said:


> That is not misinformation. That has been my point the whole time.



Yes, it is. Provide proof to the contrary.

Edit for the lulz:



nintendo19 said:


> So it sounds like you have already decided what particle size leaves a mask and that a mask prevents any particles from leaving it.



Please, quote where I said or implied that. I'll wait.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> How about this. Can you provide any study that shows that positive covid-19 patients who are shedding with what would be considered high to normal viral load levels who wear surgeons masks do not produce air borne particles? Or produce them at a measured level that is low enough to prevent propagation of Covid-19? That would suggest then my argument is truly pointless. Right?



Nobody is suggesting that someone COVID positive suddenly stops "producing air borne particles" or "produce them at a lower level" just because they put on a mask.

If you're looking effectiveness of masks on the transmissibility of the virus, that's information that's been very heavily publicized for well over a year now, so I suggest you pull your head out of the sand. For your reading pleasure:

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...g-science-sars-cov2.html#anchor_1619456988446
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6549/1439
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...9-transmission-significantly-study-finds.aspx



nintendo19 said:


> You would think by now if it was that easy to illustrate someone would have done it by now.



Not when you're asking a nonsensical thing.



nintendo19 said:


> I can't find anything suggesting that.



Because nobody is suggesting the nonsensical things that you are.



nintendo19 said:


> All I know is that surgeons masks and cloth masks won't block covid-19 that is airborne, way too small to do that.



Again, you keep saying this, but you keep failing to provide proof.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> How about this.  Can you provide any study that shows that positive covid-19 patients who are shedding with what would be considered high to normal viral load levels who wear surgeons masks do not produce air borne particles?  Or produce them at a measured level that is low enough to prevent propagation of Covid-19?  That would suggest then my argument is truly pointless.  Right?
> 
> You would think by now if it was that easy to illustrate someone would have done it by now.
> 
> ...



Your horse is dead, quit beating it. NOBODY HAS STATED THAT THE VIRUS CANNOT BE CONTRACTED VIA THE AIR. You're literally fighting a ghost in your own head, and it is getting pathetic. Just admit you were mislead... or don't, shutting up is probably a good move too! But you've clearly lost your argument and there isn't any face to save at this point. Let it go.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 12, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Your horse is dead, quit beating it. NOBODY HAS STATED THAT THE VIRUS CANNOT BE CONTRACTED VIA THE AIR. You're literally fighting a ghost in your own head, and it is getting pathetic. Just admit you were mislead... or don't, shutting up is probably a good move too! But you've clearly lost your argument and there isn't any face to save at this point. Let it go.



We're at a page and a half of him arguing against things that he is making up himself while saying other people are making them up instead.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

I mean, between that and the previous pages where we had arguments about people that were going "oh they have a very small sample where some inflammation happened, hence it has to be causation and widespread", this thread is really going everywhere and nowhere


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 12, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> I mean, between that and the previous pages where we had arguments about people that were going "oh they have a very small sample where some inflammation happened, hence it has to be causation and widespread", this thread is really going everywhere and nowhere



At least we aren't arguing about hydroxy any more!


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

That's a good thing, the southern wizard (aka our local nickname for Raoult in France, since I''m from there originally) has done enough on slowing global medical science for almost a year, we really don't need to keep at it now that he's in trouble for his mischief ^^
This whole HCQ stuff has done a lot of harm in slowing everything to check his unfounded claims, and he's also tainted the image of French medicine durably for the foreseeable future with his shit, definitely not a fan


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

It has never been about filtering the finer particles, it has always been about reducing the range at which the bigger ones that contain a lot of the virus as well (and made most of the transmission on close contact) spread.
Everything you said was twisted to fit your idea that masks are useless, which they are not. All the studies they linked show very big correlation factors between masks and the slowdown of transmission of the virus, and it is a *very good* indicator that they most likely do something to help.
Yes, they're no miracle, yes you need to keep ventilation at a maximum in enclosed space even when wearing masks, but they do help, there's no denying that.
And that's exactly what you did this entire time, denying they are helpful.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

Yes, they would have had even more with no masks and no vaccines, that's the whole fucking point!

As I said, it is not a miracle solution, but it HELPS. Helping is all it does, it's one layer more of helping, you need all of them to *slow down* the spread (because at this point it's clear we cannot stop it altogether, it's way too late for that to even be possible outside of killing every human on earth, which is not exactly a "good" solution).

How hard is it to understand that having something, even if its effectiveness is relatively limited, is way better than having nothing, or worse something that makes it more dangerous?

How hard is it for you to accept that?


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...d-vaccinated-still-falls-prey-to-delta-strain
> 
> So this is just an anomaly right?  If they had not been wearing masks they would have more infections in your opinion?
> 
> ...



The only anomaly is that you are still arguing. Again, you pull a source that doesn't actually help your point. Every resource that can prevent the spread at any level of effectiveness needs to be utilized if we want to curb the virus, and the quicker it gets done, the sooner we can prevent future mutations that can break through current vaccine immunities. Please, just stop.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> I have yet to see you post one single thing that counters my point that if is is airborne surgeons masks are incapable of filtering out particles that small.
> 
> You even tried to suggest earlier that covid 19 was not air born.  Which I followed up with an EPA article stating it is, and all you could say is see they say wear a mask.  I don't think you even understand how transmissible it is, and yet you feel like you can debate how effective surgeons masks are?  Does not make a lot of sense to me.
> 
> ...


I left this thread four hours ago, and I find you still refusing to acknowledge the preponderance of scientific studies showing masks and mask mandates are effective.

As I said hours ago, COVID-19 is primarily contracted by inhaling saliva droplets that contain the virus. Masks are effective at blocking some of these droplets, and masks have been demonstrated to slow the spread of infection. Masks are not 100% effective. In fact, they're probably only about 50% effective, which is one of the reasons why vaccination is so important, but they work nonetheless.

Even if we hypothetically had no idea how masks were effective, we still have scientific data that shows they are effective.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> I have yet to see you post one single thing that counters my point that if is is airborne surgeons masks are incapable of filtering out particles that small.



You will not, because no one has ever argued that, you're literally fighting a straw-man here.



nintendo19 said:


> If surgeon masks worked Hawaii should be doing better infection rate wise, they are not.



You're taking it backwards. If they did not help at all, their situation would be way worse. You seem to have a very hard time just fathoming that, and it is very sad.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> I have yet to see you post one single thing that counters my point that if is is airborne surgeons masks are incapable of filtering out particles that small.
> 
> You even tried to suggest earlier that covid 19 was not air born.  Which I followed up with an EPA article stating it is, and all you could say is see they say wear a mask.  I don't think you even understand how transmissible it is, and yet you feel like you can debate how effective surgeons masks are?  Does not make a lot of sense to me.
> 
> ...



Key term, buttercup. "EASILY TRANSMISSIBLE" is in reference to the notion that it isn't from airborne particulates diluted over time and distance that we're worried about when we don face masks. Masks help to prevent saliva particulates from spreading the disease, which IS a very good vector over periods of time. My link talks about this. Other links posted by folks have referenced it. NOBODY IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY DEBATES THE VALUE OF MASKS IN GOOD FAITH! This is why you have a consensus of posters trying to tell you to eat your foot quietly in the corner.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Here watch this,
> 
> DR. Osterholm - Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research just said in the last 2 weeks regarding cloth/surgeon masks:
> 
> ...



I must've missed the part where he explicitly said or otherwise implied that masks cause more harm than done. It's weird he would've mentioned that because in the transcription he states that, from the perspective of time concentration and average indoor scenarios, wearing a mask may only give your a few more minutes of protection, as opposed to an N-95 which allegedly could give you close to a half hour more. 

So, first we need to dissect the doctor's exact stance: is he saying masks hurt us, or do they offer a shred of protection?

If it's the latter, what exactly is the argument? The fact that masks offer so little protection that it's pointless? If so, I see it like stat building. A little protection is always better than none, and if that last little bit is what I need to fend off the virus, I mean why not? Better safe than sorry, right?


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> Here watch this,
> 
> DR. Osterholm - Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research just said in the last 2 weeks regarding cloth/surgeon masks:
> 
> ...



From the transcript of the video



> SO WHEN YOU ASK WHAT CAN YOU DO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO PUT ON N95 OR FELL LIKE YOU CAN'T, THAT IS YOUR CHOICE BUT BOTTOM LINE THE FACE CLOTH COVERING IS ONLY GOING TO PROVIDE YOU LIMITED PROTECTION.



It -helps-. It's not a -cure-. It's not a -magic bullet- as I am stating for the third time. None of that disagrees with anything anyone here has said.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 12, 2021)

Damn, this Nin19 guy sure doesn't understand that masks aren't supposed to be 100% effective, but it's used to slow down the spread of the virus (and other viruses/diseases/etc.). Which is actually doing its job in places where many people wore masks have less trouble as compared to other places where many don't. Same goes for taking the vaccines and not taking one.

Wearing a mask adds another layer of protection to slow down the spread as much as possible. Again, same goes for the vaccines. The more layer of protections you have against the virus, the better the chances to not get infected by it or spreading it to other people. And even if you do get infected, vaccines can at least help lessen the worst effects of the virus so most folks don't end up in ER and having tubes in their mouths and throats because they can't breathe properly and other issues.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> From video:
> 
> NEEDLESS TO SAY AS THE POLITICAL HOT BUTTON BEYOND ANYTHING I'VE EVER SEEN IN PUBLIC HEALTH.
> 
> ...



Thank you for proving yourself wrong and posting things that agree with what everyone else has been trying to tell you. Can we put this discussion to bed now? Can you log back in to whatever your normal account is?


----------



## Sicklyboy (Aug 12, 2021)

nintendo19 said:


> The Director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research believes other medical professionals are doing us a disservice by over extending the benefits to these masks.
> 
> Which likely has lead to people getting Covid 19 when they were under the impression they had a safety net.
> 
> ...


Whooaaaaa, easy there bucko, let's put those goalposts down before anyone gets hurt! 

Everything you said in that last post is not at all what you were initially arguing!


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Even if masks stopped Cancer, Aids, Covid and made me shit bars of gold I wouldn't wear one until the nonsense hypocrisy stops.   Tyranny and bourgeois behavior out of the political class and the mob mentality is and will continue to be more dangerous than Covid.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 12, 2021)

vaccine effectiveness falling fast.
There needs to be truth-telling about the reduced protection of mRNA vaccines vs symptomatic Delta infections. It was 95% pre-Delta. Many are claiming it's still ~80%.It isn't. 50-60% is best estimate from all sources (not US, since we don't have the data) pic.twitter.com/ep608YW0J7— Eric Topol (@EricTopol) August 11, 2021


----------



## Xzi (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> vaccine effectiveness falling fast.
> https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1425492860619481098


Effectiveness is unchanged for the primary strain of COVID-19 that Moderna/Pfizer were tested against.  J&J was still in the testing phase when the Delta variant was discovered, so it was tested against that and found to be 60% effective at preventing infection.  Anybody who's been paying any attention at all knew that Moderna/Pfizer would have similar effectiveness.

What's far more important than preventing infection, however, is preventing serious illness, and all three of these vaccines are 90%+ effective in that category; even against Delta.  Thus the reason 98% of new hospitalizations/serious cases of COVID come from the unvaccinated.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 12, 2021)

Because 0% protection against the virus is better.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Well I have to give Obama credit for not being a hypocrite apparently he did wear a mask at his birthday party.


----------



## djpannda (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> vaccine effectiveness falling fast.
> https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1425492860619481098


 lol This data only amplifies the need for everyone to get vaccination and Mask up quickly because if we don't The Virus mutates into something stronger.. Deadlier .... Damn Valwinz !! Thanks formaking the Point for Mass Vaccination for us!


----------



## seany1990 (Aug 12, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Even if masks stopped Cancer, Aids, Covid and made me shit bars of gold I wouldn't wear one until the nonsense hypocrisy stops.   Tyranny and bourgeois behavior out of the political class and the mob mentality is and will continue to be more dangerous than Covid.



Save these epic quotes for when you give Granny's eulogy


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> vaccine effectiveness falling fast.
> https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1425492860619481098



Decreased efficacy would be all the more reason for as many people to get vaccinated as soon as possible. The more people who are vaccinated, the less the virus is circulating. The less the virus is circulating, the less people will be exposed to the virus.
Decreased efficacy would also show the importance of getting vaccinated and stopping the spread of the virus because it would show the risk associated with allowing new variants to pop up. New variants can be more infectious, more deadly, less effected by the vaccines.
There is a lot of uncertainty about the efficacy of the vaccines against the delta variant, and it's a bold (and unsubstantiated) statement to say "the mRNA vaccines are definitely less than 80% effective against the delta variant." One of the problems is you're going to see higher rates of infection among the vaccinated when there are larger numbers of unvaccinated people in the area spreading the disease, and you're going to see lower rates of infection among the vaccinated when there are lower numbers of unvaccinated people in the area spreading the disease. Hypothetically, in an area with a lot of unvaccinated people and high transmission, there could be a cap on how many unvaccinated people get infected (i.e. the highest number of them who could be infected get infected), while the number of vaccinated people who get infected increases. This would skew the vaccine efficacy rate in the less effective (and incorrect) direction. These variables and others, like the natural immunity some in the unvaccinated population might have by contracting and spreading the virus in an reckless manner, need to be controlled for when ascertaining the true efficacy of the vaccines against the delta variant.
In more controlled studies, the mRNA vaccines (specifically two doses of Pfizer) seem to offer about 80% efficacy against asymptomatic and symptomatic infections caused by the delta variant. They seem to offer about 96% efficacy against hospitalization caused by the delta variant. These are some of the best numbers we have from controlled studies.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

seany1990 said:


> Save these epic quotes for when you give Granny's eulogy



My grandmother is 93 and was one of the first credentialed Nurse practitioners in the country she is married to a retired division head of infectious medicine at UC Davis California he's 98.   Neither one are getting the vaccine, they have told all of our family not to get it and they snicker about people wearing masks with over 50 years of practice each.

They are doing just fine and will continue to do so.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Even if masks stopped Cancer, Aids, Covid


That would be incredibly reckless and immoral of you if you had the power to significantly reduce the risk of yourself and others contracting these diseases (pretending cancer was infectious) but willfully did nothing to reduce the spread. You would have blood on your hands, but after our numerous conversations about the moral imperative associated with COVID-19 vaccination, I am not surprised. You care more about not getting vaccinated and not wearing masks than you do about your life and the lives of those around you.



jimbo13 said:


> I wouldn't wear one until the nonsense hypocrisy stops.


The hypothetical hypocrisy of some people is irrelevant to whether or not what that person is advocating should be done. For example, if a person who recommends wearing seatbelts doesn't themself wear a seatbelt, that doesn't mean you shouldn't wear a seatbelt.



jimbo13 said:


> Tyranny and bourgeois behavior out of the political class and the mob mentality is and will continue to be more dangerous than Covid.


COVID-19 is verifiably more dangerous than COVID-19 mitigations. I'd also like you to explain how COVID-19 mitigations are "tyrannical."



jimbo13 said:


> My grandmother is 93 and was one of the first credentialed Nurse practitioners in the country she is married to a retired division head of infectious medicine at UC Davis California he's 98.   Neither one are getting the vaccine


If they aren't getting vaccinated, that's all the more reason for as many people as possible around them to get vaccinated. There are cases of people in similar situations who are getting vaccinated in secret so they can protect their family members without being shamed by them, and I think that's fine. What matters is they get vaccinated.

If you care about the health of your grandparents, the data is clear that you should get vaccinated.



jimbo13 said:


> Neither one are getting the vaccine, they have told all of our family not to get it and they snicker about people wearing masks with over 50 years of practice each.


We can care about people, and we can consider people worth protecting, even if they're stupid.



jimbo13 said:


> They are doing just fine and will continue to do so.


I hope they continue to be fine, but you don't know anymore than I do that this will be the case. I hope for their sake they live in the middle of nowhere and don't interact with a lot of people indoors. I also hope that the people who do interact with them are vaccinated, even if it's a secret. Even better, I hope they're secretly vaccinated.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We can care about people, and we can consider people worth protecting, even if they're stupid.



The stupid act would be disregard the advice of trained medical professionals, one with an expertise in infectious disease and nearly a 100 years between the two of them who I know care about my welfare and do as a malicious government full of liars wants.

Number one cause of death in history is Governments.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> The stupid act would be disregard the advice of trained medical professionals


Then I suggest you stop disregarding the advice of the overwhelming number of relevant medical professionals, rather than focusing on two science-deniers you have an emotional bias towards.



jimbo13 said:


> who I know care about my welfare


People can allegedly (and actually) care about one's welfare while acting against that interest.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Then I suggest you stop disregarding the advice of the overwhelming number of relevant medical professionals, rather than focusing on two science-deniers you have an emotional bias towards.



The majority is rarely right about anything, they are generally the ones torching the person who said the earth is round.   No shortage of credible researchers and Doctors saying don't take it, the only criticism that is generally made of them was they stated the obvious.   Experimental vaccines with no long term history of usage are not safe.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> The majority is rarely right about anything, they are generally the ones torching the person who said the earth is round.


I hope the irony isn't lost on you that the overwhelming number of relevant professionals, as well as the overwhelming number if people in general, presently acknowledge the Earth is round.

Those who claimed the Earth was round embraced science, and those who refused to believe the Earth was round rejected science. That's the part that matters.



jimbo13 said:


> No shortage of credible researchers and Doctors saying don't take it


Relative to how many credible medical professionals highly recommend the vaccine, yes, there is indeed a shortage of credible researchers and doctors who don't recommend the vaccine.



jimbo13 said:


> the only criticism that is generally made of them was they stated the obvious.


The criticism is anti-vax and anti-mask rhetoric is unsubstantiated and anti-science drivel. Those who are anti-vaccine, for example, have yet to substantiate the claims they're making, and many of their claims have been debunked.

Saying the only criticism is they're "stating the obvious" is outright nonsense.



jimbo13 said:


> Experimental vaccines with no long term history of usage are not safe.


The COVID-19 vaccines have been more than demonstrated to be safe and effective. Full FDA approval of the vaccines is also imminent.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 12, 2021)

Let's not forget that the current concern about vaccine efficacy against Delta is primarily caused by one Indian study which based its results on a vaccine that's not even approved for use in the U.S. - it's a slapstick Russian jab called Sputnik V that had lower efficacy compared to the American and European ones from the get-go, let alone now.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I hope the irony isn't lost on you that the overwhelming number of relevant professionals, as well as the overwhelming number if people in general, presently acknowledge the Earth is round.
> 
> Those who claimed the Earth was round embraced science, and those who refused to believe the Earth was round rejected science.
> 
> ...




The FDA claims Marijuana is as dangerous as Heroin and sends SWAT teams to raid the Amish for selling natural cow milk, they have no credibility.   Properly prescribed approved FDA drugs kill over 100K a year.

Your yellow sources don't sway anyone who is capable of independent thought, Institutional censorship is rampant.  Just this week we have a duly elected senator whose a second generation doctor reading a peer reviewed paper being memory holed for doing so.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> The FDA claims Marijuana is as dangerous as Heroin and sends SWAT teams to raid the Amish for selling natural cow milk, they have no credibility.   Properly prescribed approved FDA drugs kill over 100K a year.
> 
> Your yellow sources don't sway anyone who is capable of independent thought, Institutional censorship is rampant.  Just this week we have a duly elected senator whose a second generation doctor reading a peer reviewed paper being memory holed for doing so.


I'm only interested in what the science says. You should be too.

Also, are you arguing for the legalization of marijuana? How progressive of you.


----------



## DKB (Aug 12, 2021)

This thread is AMAZING for learning/discovering who not to talk to about health/disease/vaccines.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm only interested in what the science says. You should be too.
> 
> Also, are you arguing for the legalization of marijuana? How progressive of you.



Your only interested in what science you agree with says.   And of course I support marijuana legalization, (only federally, state by state causes influxes of stoners as seen in Colorado)  I support at minimum decriminalizing all drugs, the government has no right or business telling me what I can put in my body or have to put in my body.

Libertarianism 101, complete delusion of the left they have anymore than a marginal consensus than the right when it comes to sensible drug policy,  Obama raided more medical marijuana dispensaries than Trump did.

https://greenrushdaily.com/news/politics/dispensary-raids-rise-obama-regime/


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Your only interested in what science you agree with says.


I'm not the one ignoring the preponderance of scientific data and the overwhelming majority of the scientific community because I like what grandma and grandpa have to say. I think we have a demonstrable case of psychological projection over here.



jimbo13 said:


> And of course I support marijuana legalization, (only federally, state by state causes influxes of stoners as seen in Colorado)  I support at minimum decriminalizing all drugs, the government has no right or business telling me what I can put in my body or have to put in my body.
> 
> Libertarianism 101, complete delusion of the left they have anymore than a marginal consensus than the right when it comes to sensible drug policy,  Obama raided more medical marijuana dispensaries than Trump did.
> 
> https://greenrushdaily.com/news/politics/dispensary-raids-rise-obama-regime/


Libertarians sometimes get things right. It should be noted, however, that one of the two major parties in the United States broadly supports marijuana legalization, and the other political party broadly opposes it.

About 96% of House Democrats voted in favor of the MORE Act.
About 3% of House Republicans voted in favor of the MORE Act.
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2020235
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marijuana_Opportunity_Reinvestment_and_Expungement_Act


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm not the one ignoring the preponderance of scientific data and the overwhelming majority of the scientific community because I like what grandma and grandpa have to say. I think we have a demonstrable case of psychological projection over here.
> 
> 
> Libertarians sometimes get things right. It should be noted, however, that one of the two major parties in the United States broadly supports marijuana legalization, and the other political party broadly opposes it.
> ...



Nonsense, Plenty of dispensary advocacy groups were opposing the MORE act it was loaded with regulation, taxes and criminal justice side issues. It was hardly a simple decriminalization or legalization act.  When a clean question without progressive nonsense tacked on the lefts vote count is marginal.

If you look a state by state map the differences are marginal, we have 4 states holding on out of 50, only two actually still pursue charges. 

Grand standing virtue signaling bills aren't indicative of support.

https://disa.com/map-of-marijuana-legality-by-state


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> Nonsense, Plenty of dispensary advocacy groups were opposing the MORE act it was loaded with regulation, taxes and criminal justice side issues. It was hardly a simple decriminalization or legalization act.  When a clean question without progressive nonsense tacked on the lefts vote count is marginal.
> 
> If you look a state by state map the differences are marginal, we have 4 states holding on out of 50, only two actually still pursue charges.
> 
> ...



It's a mistake to look at what states are doing, since many of them are taking paths to legalization or decriminalization through ballot measures. A lot of progressive policies end up being passed through popular vote ballot measures even though those areas/states are represented by Republican politicians who are against those very things. For example, Missouri recently passed Medicaid expansion through a ballot measure, despite the Republicans who control governance in the state being vehemently opposed to it.
Instead, you should be looking at what the Republican and Democratic lawmakers are actually saying and doing. Democratic members of the House put forward legislation to decriminalize marijuana, and Republicans voted against it. Meanwhile, the former Republican president tried to eliminate protections for state medical marijuana laws, and he rescinded the Obama administration 2013 Cole Memorandum, which directed federal prosecutors to not pursue marijuana prosecutions in states where marijuana is legal under state law.
If you look closely at the map you've posted, stereotypically blue states are far more likely to have legalized marijuana, and stereotypically red states are far less likely to have done so.
Aside from the marijuana decriminalization itself, there wasn't much that was controversial in the MORE Act. I'd be interested to know if you would have voted for it, and if not, why specifically you wouldn't have.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's a mistake to look at what states are doing, since many of them are taking paths to legalization or decriminalization through ballot measures. A lot of progressive policies end up being passed through popular vote ballot measures even though those areas/states are represented by Republican politicians who are against those very things. For example, Missouri recently passed Medicaid expansion through a ballot measure, despite the Republicans who control governance in the state being vehemently opposed to it.
> Instead, you should be looking at what the Republican and Democratic lawmakers are actually saying and doing. Democratic members of the House put forward legislation to decriminalize marijuana, and Republicans voted against it. Meanwhile, the former Republican president tried to eliminate protections for state medical marijuana laws, and he rescinded the Obama administration 2013 Cole Memorandum, which directed federal prosecutors to not pursue marijuana prosecutions in states where marijuana is legal under state law.
> If you look closely at the map you've posted, stereotypically blue states are far more likely to have legalized marijuana, and stereotypically red states are far less likely to have done so.
> Aside from the marijuana decriminalization itself, there wasn't much that was controversial in the MORE Act. I'd be interested to know if you would have voted for it, and if not, why specifically you wouldn't have.


As a person who has a legal grow I was opposed to the 5% federal tax that amounted to an affirmative action tax of how the money was earmarked. I wasn't going to support any federal tax, I definitely wasn't going to support a "Clean up the crack hoods" tax.  Take it out of the CIA budget, they did it.

I actually voted against full legalization here in MT.  Not because I oppose legalization, but it adversely affected my bottom line and two I didn't want to encourage the canna-tourism and population influx that was seen in Colorado.

We have a saying in Montana,  "Shhhhhhh!" and already have enough problems with tourists trying to pet the fluffy cows and take selfies with bears


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

How is local politics about unrelated drugs penalisation relevant to the covid and covid-vaccine subject, already? 
Because I really fail to see where there is any relevance to any of jim's diversions, tbh. Like anything he says is a diversion to not have to acknowledge his beliefs against covid-vaccines and mask mandates are biased and outright flawed, why are we still falling into that?


----------



## djpannda (Aug 12, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> How is local politics about unrelated drugs penalisation relevant to the covid and covid-vaccine subject, already?
> Because I really fail to see where there is any relevance to any of jim's diversions, tbh. Like anything he says is a diversion to not have to acknowledge his beliefs against covid-vaccines and mask mandates are biased and outright flawed, why are we still falling into that?



Wait you mean his Uncle doe not Work for Nintendo....


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 12, 2021)

This never end as democrats keep making spreader events like Obama


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> This never end as democrats keep making spreader events like Obama


Yes, because not Republicans but DEMOCRATS ARE A NEVER ENDING STREAM OF SUPER SPREADERS. YOU GOT 'EM, VAL! Seriously, did a dem eat your cat or something? Why are you so full of misplaced rage?


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> This never end as democrats keep making spreader events like Obama



https://www.texasgop.org/republican-events-list/

This is just in Texas alone, over like a two week minimum. 

Must be all those Republicans for Obama, huh?


----------



## Kilim (Aug 12, 2021)

democrats bad republicans good


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> This never end as democrats keep making spreader events like Obama


A spreader or "super-spreader" event is a very specific thing. For example, the indoor and largely maskless Trump rallies that occurred during the 2020 election season demonstrably spread COVID-19 and death in their wakes, and that's what made them super-spreader events. You don't just get to call something a spreader event just because you feel like it's a spreader event. Let me know when there's evidence that Obama's outdoor event with vaccinated attendees spread COVID-19, and then we can talk.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 12, 2021)

Kilim said:


> democrats bad republicans good


Plz provides surcis!


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 12, 2021)

All these L's Jim keeps getting. Hilarious to see how many times their reasoning gets taken down so easily with multiple facts and data and their main emotional drive is because their grandparents don't want the family to take the vaccine.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 12, 2021)

wait a minute 
New concerning results, Israel 2021 (Prof. Retsef Levi)MDA Emergency calls:25% increase in Cardiac arrests & Heart attacks (16-29).83.6% increase in Heart attacks (Women 20-29).According to the study, this increase was correlated with Mass vaccination.https://t.co/SWVbjJUSnw https://t.co/ezQp0UJia2 pic.twitter.com/aQrGZVlw96— Ran Israeli (@RanIsraeli) August 10, 2021


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

Will you someday post actual scientific evidence and not random twitter posts with unsourced documents attached? Just wondering if you'll ever have something reliable to say or if you're just full on unredeemable


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> wait a minute
> https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1425002893116166144



Correlation doesn't equal causation.
A 25% increase in heart attacks between the ages of 16-29 is approximately 72 people. When you have numbers this low, random chance can have a significant effect on the data.
An 83.6% increase in heart attacks among women 20-29 is about 25 people. When you have numbers this low, random chance can have a significant effect on the data.
These increases could be attributed to numerous other variables, including but not limited to COVID-19, the effects of lockdowns, random chance, etc.
I haven't seen any data that shows a direct link between vaccines and increased heart attacks.
Let us know when you actually have scientific data to support your hypothesis.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> wait a minute
> https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1425002893116166144



It's almost like this information has been known since the vaccinations came out. Yes, those who had the vaccination have a risk of cardiac arrest and heart attacks. And, for those of us good at math the rise in overall vaccinations will also give a rise to those who report heart attacks. You what other number fluctuates with increased vaccinations? An overall decrease in new Covid cases. Pertaining to the strains the vaccine was made for, anyway.

Man, for a forum revolving around games and hacks, some of you have very little grasp on basic mathematics.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 12, 2021)

Oh hey, found the probable title of the article this data is cannibalised from: "*Evidence of Worse Outcomes Related to Cardiac Arrest during the COVID-19 Pandemic due to Patient Reluctance to Seek Care."*
Not yet published, the article is also not yet accessible on the author's website https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/retsef-levi
But it does seem the data you're using is completely unrelated to the vaccine and completely related to "patient reluctance to seek care". Like, most likely because the healthcare system has been struggling for the past 18 months, so they don't want to overload it with what they think is not going to be a big problem (and then the worse happens).

THAT is the actual biggest consequence of people continuing to let the variants go haywire: healthcare systems are under stress, so people who have something else are reluctant to seek care because they don't want to overload the system. And that means they don't get treated, get worse and sometimes die.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Oh hey, found the probable title of the article this data is cannibalised from: "*Evidence of Worse Outcomes Related to Cardiac Arrest during the COVID-19 Pandemic due to Patient Reluctance to Seek Care."*
> Not yet published, the article is also not yet accessible on the author's website https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/retsef-levi
> But it does seem the data you're using is completely unrelated to the vaccine and completely related to "patient reluctance to seek care". Like, most likely because the healthcare system has been struggling for the past 18 months, so they don't want to overload it with what they thing is not going to be a big problem (and then the worse happens).
> 
> THAT is the actual biggest consequence of people continuing to let the variants go haywire: healthcare systems are under stress, so people who have something else are reluctant to seek care because they don't want to overload the system. And that means they don't get treated, get worse and sometimes die.


@Valwinz Can we get a concession from you?


----------



## ChaoticCinnabon (Aug 12, 2021)

It's funny coming back here to see what tinfoil hatters are doing, cheap laughs.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> wait a minute
> https://twitter.com/RanIsraeli/status/1425002893116166144


https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/retsef-levi

Maybe not the best person to speak about viruses.

So the data is to new to show any concrete proof. It's not like people been stressed as fucked since 2020?


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 12, 2021)

@Valwinz do you by any chance work as a nurse in Germany?


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 12, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Will you someday post actual scientific evidence and not random twitter posts with unsourced documents attached? Just wondering if you'll ever have something reliable to say or if you're just full on unredeemable


Lacius is not a scientist and he does it for free


----------



## djpannda (Aug 12, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Will you someday post actual scientific evidence and not random twitter posts with unsourced documents attached? Just wondering if you'll ever have something reliable to say or if you're just full on unredeemable


...your asking them not to Breathe.... Thats the only info they believe....


----------



## Lacius (Aug 12, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> Lacius is not a scientist and he does it for free



I am not a scientist, which is why I post relevant scientific data from actual scientists.
You seem to have no problem hypocritically posting things from non-scientists when they share your anti-vax and anti-science ideologies.
I make my posts for free, as do you. Each time you bring this up though, it reminds me of the embarrassing time political activism was actually feigned for monetary gain: when Trump paid people to pretend to support him when he announced his candidacy for president in 2015.
Are you going to concede that your previous post about heart disease is debunked nonsense, or are you just going to go quiet, bide your time, and then come back later to shitpost after your previous shitposting has been forgotten?


----------



## SaberLilly (Aug 12, 2021)

I just got my first shot today, got to go get round two in another month.


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 12, 2021)




----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 13, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> How is local politics about unrelated drugs penalisation relevant to the covid and covid-vaccine subject, already?
> Because I really fail to see where there is any relevance to any of jim's diversions, tbh. Like anything he says is a diversion to not have to acknowledge his beliefs against covid-vaccines and mask mandates are biased and outright flawed, why are we still falling into that?



How is it Jimbos diversion when I was answering a question Lacius a question asked? Off topic fair enough, but I was not the only one straying.

My opposition to masks and vaccine is entirely limited to facts and historical behavior. Yes I do believe plenty of information progressives would reject because any researcher who discusses anything off script is instantly labeled a quack and memory hole'd.   But I don't even have to acknowledge it before coming to the same conclusion.  

Your sockpuppet is obvious by the way.

1) To accept Covid mask guidelines I would have to believe the prior 50 years of airborne transmission of virus and mask data was wrong, as was the training given to medical professionals.  So either health officials were either lying then, now or incompetent.

Outside of full biohazard kits the only effective mask is a professional N95 mask when the user is properly trained to not touch their face, distance and sanitizing constantly.   Says medical training that was provided to every professional for the last 50 years.  

Our government officials *lied* to the public to the public regarding N95 masks to horde for their priorities, a year later after production/stock issues could of been solved  they continue the nonsense.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/fauc...interview-about-mask-wearing-was-one-year-ago

They did not test the infinite number of materials, makes and combinations of home made mask which would make any study you provided on their effectiveness anecdotal at best.

Governments have had more than enough time to make N95 masks readily available and encourage them they have not done so.  Indicative they do not legitimately care.   There has been no PSA's/training or emphasis on the very important issue of face touching and basic explanations of contact, absence of such behaviors render the masks theater.

Not only are masks as inconsistent as their composition, they encourage bad behavior.  I want people to be cautious and concerned about my unmasked face. What I don't want is someone under the false security of their face binky getting close and trying to discuss something with me.​

2) My people have had vaccines and experimental drugs weaponized against us for the last 200 years.   We have been forcibly inoculated to make us safe for white settlers, our children were put in boarding schools and subjected to vaccines deemed risky for white children.  I know countless elderly veterans who became blind in their 40s due to targeted use of experimental vaccines from military trials in the 60s used on Native Americans and blacks only.

Come down to the Crow Agency, we have heard "Safe and effective" before it was trendy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/03/28/native-americans-vaccine-smallpox-covid/

3)   Governments are not to be trusted, see history pg. all of them.

When institutions have already lied and are now engaging in institutional censorship of dissenting information, those institutions are not trustworthy and I reject their guidance.  If you are restricting and stifling my access to information of my choosing you are a liar, gaslighting and not to be trusted or complied with in anyway.

I am completely within established facts to have reached my conclusion.​


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 13, 2021)

It seems like RBG never left not sure why Dems where mad a Barrett 
Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1425929920610541568


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 13, 2021)

I'm not even going to bother, you're the one who started the whole politics and comparison with drugs shit jim, you're the one throwing diversions. And it's been discussed countless times how your "facts" are biased, you only accept facts that go towards your own beliefs and refuse to consider the ones that prove the opposite or that show there is a nuance between things. As long as you're behaving like that, I have no care for your repeating over and over the same bullshit while others can go all day with countless times more *different* things that show at least a bit of nuance towards the opposite.

As for Valwinz, you have been answered to, I need not repeat what has been said. There's a huge difference between your twitter shitpost and actual articles and relevant authorities posted by others like Lacius.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 13, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> How is it Jimbos diversion when I was answering a question Lacius a question asked? Off topic fair enough, but I was not the only one straying.


I didn't bring up marijuana. It was, indeed, your diversion.


----------



## djpannda (Aug 13, 2021)

SaberLilly said:


> I just got my first shot today, got to go get round two in another month.


Congrat! Your doing God’s work. As the  vaccine is just as much for others who can’t get the vaccine than you!


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I didn't bring up marijuana. It was, indeed, your diversion.



As a brief remark In the context of FDA credibility, then you started debating it. That conversation was entirely a Jimbo/Lacius baby, but if your saying I was the top in the relationship I agree.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 13, 2021)

jimbo13 said:


> As a brief remark In the context of FDA credibility, then you started debating it. That conversation was entirely a Jimbo/Lacius baby, but if your saying I was the top in the relationship I agree.


I'm saying how the law classifies marijuana is irrelevant to the science of COVID-19. Bringing it up was demonstrably another one of your distractions.


----------



## Goku1992A (Aug 13, 2021)

I originally voted no but I changed my vote. I got my first dose 2 days ago and I will get my second one in two weeks. 

Just get vaccine a guy at my job died because of Codvid and he left behind his 4 year old daughter. Dont underestimate this the vaccine will help you


----------



## Lacius (Aug 13, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> It seems like RBG never left not sure why Dems where mad a Barrett
> https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1425929920610541568


Just because she ruled appropriately on an issue that never should have been politicized doesn't meant she isn't likely to rule inappropriately on other issues.


----------



## djpannda (Aug 13, 2021)

Goku1992A said:


> I originally voted no but I changed my vote. I got my first dose 2 days ago and I will get my second one in two weeks.
> 
> Just get vaccine a guy at my job died because of Codvid and he left behind his 4 year old daughter. Dont underestimate this the vaccine will help you


Thank you for sharing!   The more people that explain their reasons might save a life of someone on the fence


----------



## SG854 (Aug 13, 2021)

djpannda said:


> Thank you for sharing!   The more people that explain their reasons might save a life of someone on the fence


It's a shame that a death causes someone to change their mind. If they listened to science to begin with then this could've been avoided.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 13, 2021)

SG854 said:


> It's a shame that a death causes someone to change their mind. If they listened to science to begin with then this could've been avoided.


And that happens very often, sadly. People losing friends or loved ones to COVID-19 all because they never listened and regrets that they should have listened, but instead just kept going with the lies and conspiracies until it's all too late. 

What's also scary is that with so many of these stories coming up, people are getting desensitized of them and still not realize the seriousness of it all.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 13, 2021)

I think the problem is that it has become very difficult to find the truth, without a certain amount of effort. One of the unfortunate downsides of the age of information.

People have also become a lot more suspicious of scientific study as it's often used as a weapon by the non-scientific types. The implications of that one terrify me.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 13, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I think the problem is that it has become very difficult to find the truth, without a certain amount of effort. One of the unfortunate downsides of the age of information.
> 
> People have also become a lot more suspicious of scientific study as it's often used as a weapon by the non-scientific types. The implications of that one terrify me.


In all fairness, Google provides ranked news sources, and the first page is almost entirely pay walled it's partially their fault for not providing a sufficiently large AdSense cut to make subscriptions a thing of the past. I would argue that nowadays the public is *less* informed despite ostensibly having *better* access to information thanks to the proliferation of the Internet. There are fairly easy ways to bypass this limitation (even Google themselves does this unwittingly as opening a published article via AMP magically removes the paywall, hint hint), but they're not very well-known. Each TV station seems to have specific sociopolitical agendas and nobody is truly unbiased or particularly reliable. Getting informed in the information age has become hard work.


----------



## Dieter-4 (Aug 13, 2021)

Got my first shot 2 weeks ago, my second one is due in October (i got the Pfizer one). Things here in Brazil took a LONG time to get going and now, although maybe 6 months behind everyone, people are getting their shots at a reasonable pace.


----------



## Dieter-4 (Aug 13, 2021)

Also, I just wanna say: hope everyone is being safe out there. Please, wear a mask and don't make decisions for someone else's body.

I live in a country that is probably literally on the top end of the rankings regarding deaths and the number of cases, with a homicidal president who doesn't give a fuck. Every time I see how life is moving forward in NA, with concerts starting again and people being able to get together again I die a little bit inside and start to think if I'm EVER gonna have a normal life again.

Sorry for the venting, I just needed that.


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 14, 2021)

First, they say people saying there was going to be Covid ID where wrong
Them they say Ok but they won't force you to get vaccinated
and now we are heading to they gonna put a Chip on you

Failed to fetch tweet https://twitter.com/SCUBA2024/status/1426584404164497408

but the conspiracy people are the wrong ones


----------



## Xen0 (Aug 14, 2021)

Hey guys. Quick question. My vaccine was 2 days ago (J&J) and I'm feeling good again. Is it save to drink alkohol? Or are there any downsides to it in terms of side effects?


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 14, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> First, they say people saying there was going to be Covid ID where wrong
> Them they say Ok but they won't force you to get vaccinated
> and now we are heading to they gonna put a Chip on you
> 
> ...


That is not at all related to covid, it's ongoing research that is aimed at warning people equipped that unusual reactions are going on in their bodies, meaning there is some sort of infection going on. It was already a subject of research before covid, it will be a research subject after covid, and it's definitely not ready to be put in place and nobody is planning to use that in the close future on anyone.

You are continuously spreading *dangerous* misinformation, please stop and do your research before posting stupid things like that.
It is a research project, not a real thing that is going to be enforced or put to use anytime soon.

In case anyone is actually interested in the *real* story (and other research projects they have going on regarding infections and pandemics in the Defense department) here is an article that talks about that and a "blood filter" that could theoretically be a future technology to help clear out infections travelling in the bloodstream (for example used in a dialysis machine): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/last-pandemic-science-military-60-minutes-2021-04-11/


----------



## Lacius (Aug 14, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> First, they say people saying there was going to be Covid ID where wrong
> Them they say Ok but they won't force you to get vaccinated
> and now we are heading to they gonna put a Chip on you
> 
> ...


Microchips that can detect the onset of illness are the future. We already have proof of concept chips that can reasonably detect evidence of heart attacks before they happen, evidence of cancer, etc. How is this a bad thing? They aren't compulsory.

Personally, anything that makes me more of a cyborg is a good thing.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 14, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> Hey guys. Quick question. My vaccine was 2 days ago (J&J) and I'm feeling good again. Is it save to drink alkohol? Or are there any downsides to it in terms of side effects?


you should only avoid things that are known to have anti-inflammatory effects in the next few days after a vaccine injection (because the inflammation is what triggers or enhances the immune response in most cases). I think alcohol should be "safe" (with moderation, as always, abuse of substances is bad for your health anyway )


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 14, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> Hey guys. Quick question. My vaccine was 2 days ago (J&J) and I'm feeling good again. Is it save to drink alkohol? Or are there any downsides to it in terms of side effects?


You realise this is a gaming forum right?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 14, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> Hey guys. Quick question. My vaccine was 2 days ago (J&J) and I'm feeling good again. Is it save to drink alkohol? Or are there any downsides to it in terms of side effects?


The short answer is that it's relatively safe to drink alcohol (at least, as safe as alcohol can be) if you feel well enough to do so after getting vaccinated. If you are experiencing side effects, drinking alcohol might make you feel worse. Heavy drinking, with or without the vaccine, isn't recommended.

https://www.prevention.com/health/a35418316/alcohol-after-covid-19-vaccine/


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 14, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> You realise this is a gaming forum right?


Well I mean, this is a thread in the politics subforum about covid vaccines, so he's kind of entilted to this kind of question, however "stupid" it might look to some of you


----------



## Lacius (Aug 14, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Well I mean, this is a thread in the politics subforum about covid vaccines, so he's kind of entilted to this kind of question, however "stupid" it might look to some of you


And we can only assume from a lot of the anti-vax posts, election fraud posts, etc. that this community also consists of a lot of heavy drinkers.


----------



## Xen0 (Aug 14, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> You realise this is a gaming forum right?


I do but I also know I'll get very accurate data here compared to google


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 14, 2021)

Xen0 said:


> I do but I also know I'll get very accurate data here compared to google


You really should be asking your doctor who has your specific medical history though.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 14, 2021)

On that point I will agree, and I'd hope we'd be clever enough to redirect anyone that has questions for which the consensus is unclear of that requires more specific knowledge to their GP (or any other medical doctor that would be competent really) instead of citing tweets randomly and take that at face value


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 14, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> First, they say people saying there was going to be Covid ID where wrong
> Them they say Ok but they won't force you to get vaccinated
> and now we are heading to they gonna put a Chip on you
> 
> ...



I both love, and worry about this. The latter only in the sense that sometimes I overthink a little too much in terms of cyber/bio hacking, not to the extreme of, but in relation to, scenarios like what you would see in Cyberpunk or most other cyber inspired dystopias. Is it realistic? No, probably not, not at this point or even in the foreseeable future. However, people in 1950 didn't understand the concept of, much less worried about, a lot of the tech we have today. I mean, technologically speaking, if they can put crypto miners in uTorrent clients and web browsers, putting something on a chip going into your body meant to do something as little as collecting data wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility. I'm going to follow this tech in particular, as I'm definitely intrigued by it. 





Lacius said:


> And we can only assume from a lot of the anti-vax posts, election fraud posts, etc. that this community also consists of a lot of heavy drinkers.



I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this. Bazinga!


----------



## Valwinz (Aug 14, 2021)

according to Lacius the future is the government forcing chips on you and tracking you but trump was the dictator.
IMAO


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 14, 2021)

Valwinz said:


> according to Lacius the future is the government forcing chips on you and tracking you but trump was the dictator.
> IMAO


Please show me where he said that


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 15, 2021)

Easy, he did not. Valwinz is as usual putting words in others' mouths, and as usual it's not even close to the truth of what they said. But aside from that we're the mad ones of course

Most likely he did not even read my answer and the link I provided with the full story that says it's *research material specific to the Defense department*, or any other reliable source that explains clearly that *it will never be forced on anyone* and that this kind of tech, if it makes it at all to public use (which might never happen for all we know) would be *completely opt-in*.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 15, 2021)

Been a few weeks, have the anti-vac crowd presented any evidence yet?


----------



## linuxares (Aug 15, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Been a few weeks, have the anti-vac crowd presented any evidence yet?


I guess this meme fits well


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 15, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I guess this meme fits well


So just the same junk that's been debunked?


Valwinz said:


> according to Lacius the future is the government forcing chips on you and tracking you but trump was the dictator.
> IMAO


You gonna quote where he said that?


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 15, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> I do practice what I preach personally, I havent engaged in any of these birthday parties or festivals or whatever. What Im arguing with here isnt that media is hypocritical, but the notion that the hypocrisy is specific to left wing media. The original post claimed that the media all hammered trump but gives a pass to left wing groups. Yet right wing media did the exact opposite, but they apparently get a pass?


I would really suggest not wasting your time on jimbo. He’s just going to make something up or grab from some fridge far-right source. Either way, there’s no winning against him because he’s not up for changing when presented with evidence or anything else


----------



## SyphenFreht (Aug 15, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> So just the same junk that's been debunked?
> 
> You gonna quote where he said that?



Doubtful. Betcha his next post is another Twitter post someone else made. 



Lilith Valentine said:


> I would really suggest not wasting your time on jimbo. He’s just going to make something up or grab from some fridge far-right source. Either way, there’s no winning against him because he’s not up for changing when presented with evidence or anything else



At least he's fun. More often than not anyway


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 15, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> Doubtful. Betcha his next post is another Twitter post someone else made.
> 
> 
> 
> At least he's fun. More often than not anyway


I noticed for both. Thus far the anti-vax side of the argument has just been fallacies, lack of peer-reviewed evidence, shit spreading, misquoting, and quoting random Tweets. It's actually kind of sad how deeply they believe something that has no evidence, yet they are clinging so tightly to it.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 15, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I would really suggest not wasting your time on jimbo. He’s just going to make something up or grab from some fridge far-right source. Either way, there’s no winning against him because he’s not up for changing when presented with evidence or anything else


Well jimbo at least responds, unlike a certain someone else in this thread who, when asked to backup their bullshit, just moves on to a new lie. If my choice is between those two ill take the one who can form complete thoughts, however misguided


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 15, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> Well jimbo at least responds, unlike a certain someone else in this thread who, when asked to backup their bullshit, just moves on to a new lie. If my choice is between those two ill take the one who can form complete thoughts, however misguided


I guess that's fair and one way to look at the situation.


----------



## jimbo13 (Aug 18, 2021)




----------



## gnmmarechal (Aug 18, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I noticed for both. Thus far the anti-vax side of the argument has just been fallacies, lack of peer-reviewed evidence, shit spreading, misquoting, and quoting random Tweets. It's actually kind of sad how deeply they believe something that has no evidence, yet they are clinging so tightly to it.


And don't forget, "do your research" is their go-to, which I actually find hilarious


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 18, 2021)

Apparently, anti-vaxxers are gathering outside smaller vaccination centres in my town and being aggressive and intimidating to people as they are going in to get vaccinated.

At this point it's mostly teens who are getting them so some of them are being scared off. So much for respecting other people and their choices.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 18, 2021)

gnmmarechal said:


> And don't forget, "do your research" is their go-to, which I actually find hilarious


It’s literally just like every single time
 
I just want actual sources to “do my own research”


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 18, 2021)

An interesting survey by Carnegie:

https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/news/news-stories/2021/july/covid-hesitancy.html

Here are the parts that catch attention:


> The largest decrease in hesitancy between January and May by education group was *in those with a high school education or less*. Hesitancy *held constant* in the most educated group (those with a PhD); by May *PhD’s were the most hesitant group*.





> Those from counties with higher Trump support in the 2020 presidential election showed higher hesitancy, and the difference in hesitancy between areas with high and low Trump  support grew over the period studied. “This finding really highlights *the politicization of public health recommendations*,” said King.
> 
> “What's concerning is there is a subset of the population that's got strong levels of hesitancy, as in *refusal to take the vaccine, not potential concern about it*, and the size of that group isn’t changing,” said Mejia.





> Generally, COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy was higher *among young (ages 18-24), non-Asian people*, and *less educated* (≤ high school diploma) adults, *and those with PhDs*, with a history of a positive COVID-19 test, *not worried about serious illness from COVID-19* and living *in regions with greater support to Donald Trump in the 2020 election*.


To translate from statistics to English, this turns the idea that people hesitant in regards to vaccinations *or* people who outright refuse to take them are "uneducated" upside down. It appears that the group that is hardest to convince is in fact the group with the highest educational success, PhD's. Sorted by education, their hesitancy is the highest. My guess, to paint with broad strokes, is that they're a group of people who think they're "too smart" to get sick - smarter than the experts. It's hubris. The people in the middle, with moderate educational attunement, are easily convinced.

In addition, large swathes of people refuse to take the vaccine on political grounds entirely. They're not concerned about the actual side effects, only the moderates are. You can't convince a person like that, it's a waste of time.

This makes perfect sense to me - people who have achieved success in the realm of education tend to consider themselves the smartest person in the room regardless of qualifications in a given subject matter. More broadly, people tend to tow the party line, so they'll obviously show dissent if the issue continues to be politicised. Nothing new under the sun for the observant among us, but it confirms suspicions with some numbers.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 18, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> An interesting survey by Carnegie:
> 
> https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/news/news-stories/2021/july/covid-hesitancy.html
> 
> ...


The moral of this story is that having higher education doesn’t prevent someone from having dangerous opinions or the best understanding of the topic they are against. Which makes sense, if you look at someone like Ben Shapiro, you find someone who is extremely intelligent but still talks out his ass about topics he has no understanding of. Having higher education does not always mean being the most knowledgeable person in the room.



gnmmarechal said:


> And don't forget, "do your research" is their go-to, which I actually find hilarious


I want to add that a lot of people doing this are clearly trying to find ways to control the conversation. The scientific method requires shows evidence with claims, something anti-vaxxors are adverse to doing. Instead they move the burden of proof onto you to “do your own research.” Whenever pressed, they just say the same anti-science nonsense about how they aren’t required to do the research for you or something obviously wrong. If you do actually research and show evidence against their claims, they get mad about how “you didn’t do the right research” and continue the cycle. It’s a conversation controlling technique just used to make sure they never actually have to show anything because they moved that burden onto you and then continued to move the goalpost.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 18, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> The moral of this story is that having higher education doesn’t prevent someone from having dangerous opinions or the best understanding of the topic they are against. Which makes sense, if you look at someone like Ben Shapiro, you find someone who is extremely intelligent but still talks out his ass about topics he has no understanding of. Having higher education does not always mean being the most knowledgeable person in the room.


Having a different opinion on sociopolitical issues than you do does not equate to being wrong, or lacking understanding.


----------



## placebo_yue (Aug 18, 2021)

bodefuceta said:


> If it works, I don't need it because other people will take it, be immune and not transmit the virus to me.


vaccine helps iwth the symptoms, but it doesn't stop spread. 
If you research a little (no, im not saying i know more than doctors by any means) you'll see that the curves for contagion didn't really diminish much with the vaccines all over the world. But the deaths did, drastically.
So there's that. Vaccinated people  will get the virus and pass it to you, they'll just have a slight fever, you might die.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 18, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> An interesting survey by Carnegie:
> 
> https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/news/news-stories/2021/july/covid-hesitancy.html
> 
> ...


What's concerning is the group that is not worried about side effects but they just refuse to take it.

Even if they see the vaccine as benificial. It seems like that group is more concerned about not being told what to do. And rebels just for the sake of rebelling. They want to prove they can stand their ground and not be forced into anything to show their individual independence or whatever. Even if not taking it is stupid in the long run. Probably believe gov should not force people to do things like take the vaccine by law.

They should figure out why this group refuses.


I remember I saw a video on Jubulie The got a bunch of college educated people take an IQ test and they all rate each others intellegence. Highly educated people do tend to over estimate their intellegence based on educational attainment.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 18, 2021)

SG854 said:


> What's concerning is the group that is not worried about side effects but they just refuse to take it.
> 
> Even if they see the vaccine as benificial. It seems like that group is more concerned about not being told what to do. And rebels just for the sake of rebelling. They want to prove they can stand their ground and not be forced into anything to show their individual independence or whatever. Even if not takimlng it is stupid in the long run. Probably believe gov should not force people to do things like take the vaccine by law.
> 
> ...


Well, people keep telling them that if they don't take it, they're immoral rubes. That's a good reason to rebel, if shortsighted and silly.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 18, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Well, people keep telling them that if they don't take it, they're immoral rubes. That's a good reason to rebel, if shortsighted and silly.


It's all about proving to everyone else you can't be told what to do. And to not let the other person gloat or have an ego.

Vaccine supporters have an ego. And people rebelling don't want them to say told you so or have this big smugness about it. People have an natural inclination to rebel agaisnt that.

But it's stupid because its shortsighted. What matters more is in the long run whats the smarter choice and not the battle of ego's. Rebelling only works if their is a benifit. Like a slave rebelling against his slave master. Rebelling is stupid if its a negative to you or the people around you. There is stupid ways of rebelling and smart ways of rebelling.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 18, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> An interesting survey by Carnegie:
> 
> https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/news/news-stories/2021/july/covid-hesitancy.html
> 
> ...



Oh joy, another non-peer reviewed paper with dubious headlines from Foxy... you really ought to wait for some meaningful numbers before making speeches and proclamations.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 18, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Oh joy, another non-peer reviewed paper with dubious headlines from Foxy... you really ought to wait for some meaningful numbers before making speeches and proclamations.


So your only rebuttal in response to a paper published by a well-respected university is "dubious headline"? It's hard for me to take criticism from someone who can't spell my name while having it in front of their face. I'm sorry that you don't like the data, but it's still data.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 18, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Oh joy, another non-peer reviewed paper with dubious headlines from Foxy... you really ought to wait for some meaningful numbers before making speeches and proclamations.


Did you even read what foxi wrote? His conclusion wasn't even that smart people knows best and are against the vaccine. His conclusion was that smart people think they are too smart for the vaccine based on the data and that High School educated were more level headed.

Other then that I don't know why you would be against what Foxi linked. The data makes sense.



Foxi4 said:


> So your only rebuttal in response to a paper published by a well-respected university is "dubious headline"? It's hard for me to take criticism from someone who can't spell my name while having it in front of their face. I'm sorry that you don't like the data, but it's still data.


Is there data for people with degree's that are in the medical field and people with degree's that are in areas other then medical? To see whats the split on vaccination.

Like someone with a PHD in Automobile Engeenering vs. a PHD in Medical Fields


Its garunteed that people in the medical field are more in favor of the vaccine then other PHD's.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 18, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Did you even read what foxi wrote? His conclusion wasn't even that smart people knows best and are against the vaccine. His conclusion was that smart people think they are too smart for the vaccine based on the data and that High School educated were more level headed.
> 
> Is there data for people with degree's that are in the medical field and people with degree's that are in areas other then medical? To see whats the split on vaccination.
> 
> ...


I don't think they've delved into the specifics. I also wouldn't necessarily make that bet either - it's actually an anecdote among doctors that the worst kind of patient you might have is another doctor since they have a strong tendency to self-medicate or make subjective diagnoses. They argue with their own doctors routinely since they're professionals within the same field. If I do see any data that specifically concerns medical professionals, I'll let you know. In any case, I previously brought up the point that the rich and affluent comprised the bulk of the anti-vax movement in the past, so I'm not terribly surprised that there's a "too smart to get sick" segment emerging now.

EDIT: Just checked the questionnaire, this is the relevant question asked:


> What is the highest degree or level of school you have completed?
> 
> 1. Less than high school
> 2. High school graduate or equivalent (GED)
> ...


So all degrees are lumped into one category without a distinction of type - it's a general classification of "professional degree". Since this is the case, we can't draw conclusions regarding degree type based on this survey.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 18, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't think they've delved into the specifics. I also wouldn't necessarily make that bet either - it's actually an anecdote among doctors that the worst kind of patient you might have is another doctor since they have a strong tendency to self-medicate or make subjective diagnoses. They argue with their own doctors routinely since they're professionals within the same field. If I do see any data that specifically concerns medical professionals, I'll let you know. In any case, I previously brought up the point that the rich and affluent comprised the bulk of the anti-vax movement in the past, so I'm not terribly surprised that there's a "too smart to get sick" segment emerging now.
> 
> EDIT: Just checked the questionnaire, this is the relevant question asked:
> 
> So all degrees are lumped into one category without a distinction of type - it's a general classification of "professional degree". Since this is the case, we can't draw conclusions regarding degree type based on this survey.


We already have data of Doctors that are in support of the vaccine. And a huge overwhelming number are in favor.

Even though Doctors are always debating amoung themselves on the Effectivness of it and coming up with better testing methodology.

But data of % of other PHD's that are in favor vs % Doctors would be nice to paint a better picture of how highly educated people can over estimate their intellegence and think they can talk in other areas they have no expertise in.

But the rich I assume think they can just buy their way out of sickness with the best Doctors if they ever got sick.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 18, 2021)

SG854 said:


> We already have data of Doctors that are in support of the vaccine. And a huge overwhelming number are in favor.
> 
> Even though Doctors are always debating amoung themselves on the Effectivness of it and coming up with better testing methodology.
> 
> ...


I mean, the Dunning-Kruger effect is already well-documented. Moreover, people who experience success in one field automatically feel more qualified to speak on all subjects, not just their area of expertise, since how hard could it be compared to X, X being what they're already good at. This reminds me of Neil the ass Tyson routinely making a fool of himself when talking about biology - he's an astrophysicist, his knowledge of biology is on the level of a high school student, and it shows.
If there were ever a species for whom sex hurt, it surely went extinct long ago.— Neil deGrasse Tyson (@neiltyson) March 11, 2016

For the record, there are multiple species to which sex is excruciatingly painful or even fatal. His various gaffes will never stop being funny to me, the guy doesn't know how to stay in his lane.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 18, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't think they've delved into the specifics. I also wouldn't necessarily make that bet either - it's actually an anecdote among doctors that the worst kind of patient you might have is another doctor since they have a strong tendency to self-medicate or make subjective diagnoses. They argue with their own doctors routinely since they're professionals within the same field. If I do see any data that specifically concerns medical professionals, I'll let you know. In any case, I previously brought up the point that the rich and affluent comprised the bulk of the anti-vax movement in the past, so I'm not terribly surprised that there's a "too smart to get sick" segment emerging now.
> 
> EDIT: Just checked the questionnaire, this is the relevant question asked:
> 
> So all degrees are lumped into one category without a distinction of type - it's a general classification of "professional degree". Since this is the case, we can't draw conclusions regarding degree type based on this survey.


This is exactly the point I was making. To just say PHD doesn't actually mean experts in a relevant field are being hesitant for good reason. The study is not really very relevant since the questions don't gain meaningful data, which ties back into it not yet being peer reviewed. I can't for the life of me see it being useful in making the point Foxy was trying to make, and just because it was done by individuals at a prestigious University doesn't mean the data is worthwhile.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 18, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> This is exactly the point I was making. To just say PHD doesn't actually mean experts in a relevant field are being hesitant for good reason. The study is not really very relevant since the questions don't gain meaningful data, which ties back into it not yet being peer reviewed. I can't for the life of me see it being useful in making the point Foxy was trying to make, and just because it was done by individuals at a prestigious University doesn't mean the data is worthwhile.


This post reveals that you don't know what point was being made. Perhaps reading it again might shed some light on what it was actually about. Worst case scenario you'll get it on the third try.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

FDA grants full approval to Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine. Please put down the horse de-wormers and go get vaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/23/health/fda-approval-pfizer-covid-vaccine/index.html


----------



## djpannda (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> FDA grants full approval to Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine. Please put down the horse de-wormers and go get vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/23/health/fda-approval-pfizer-covid-vaccine/index.html


you beat me to it 
*FDA grants full approval to Pfizer-BioNTech’s Covid shot, clearing path to more vaccine mandates*

 man cant wait for soccer season


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 23, 2021)

Can't wait for more mandates with the FDA approval. Yes, I am being serious. I am 100% in favor of more mandates. It's amusing watching people cry about their freedoms. Guess what? Anti-vaxxers/maskers aren't the only ones with freedoms. Plenty of people have the freedom to create mandates. You want your freedom respected? Then you also need to respect the freedom of others to not let you into their restaurant, bar, movie theater, sporting event, grocery store, whatever the case may be. The thing about the antis is that they for some odd reason think they are the only ones who have freedoms. No one can force you to take the vaccine, but they CAN force you out of their business & your job for not taking it. That's THEIR freedom. Suck it. Can't have freedom only your way.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Can't wait for more mandates with the FDA approval. Yes, I am being serious. I am 100% in favor of more mandates. It's amusing watching people cry about their freedoms. Guess what? Anti-vaxxers/maskers aren't the only ones with freedoms. Plenty of people have the freedom to create mandates. You want your freedom respected? Then you also need to respect the freedom of others to not let you into their restaurant, bar, movie theater, sporting event, grocery store, whatever the case may be. The thing about the antis is that they for some odd reason think they are the only ones who have freedoms. No one can force you to take the vaccine, but they CAN force you out of their business & your job for not taking it. That's THEIR freedom. Suck it. Can't have freedom only your way.


I'm not against mask mandates, it's a piece of cloth - grow up. I am against vaccination mandates, even though I am pro vaccine all the way. Nobody should be forced to undergo any medical procedure or take any drug they don't want just because the government tells them to, even if they refuse for boneheaded reasons.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not against mask mandates, it's a piece of cloth - grow up. I am against vaccination mandates, even though I am pro vaccine all the way. Nobody should be forced to undergo any medical procedure or take any drug they don't want just because the government tells them to, even if they refuse for boneheaded reasons.


We have a long precedent of vaccine mandates in the United States, most notably in public schools. Are you against these too?


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We have a long precedent of vaccine mandates in the United States, most notably in public schools. Are you against these too?


As far as vaccination of children is concerned, I'm in two minds. On one hand, I respect the right of the parents to decide on behalf of their child which drugs and procedures are appropriate and which are not. On the other, I also believe that the state should protect minors from adults who are stupid, since their decisions affect the rest of the child's life. We have a similar problem with religious exemptions in regards to blood transfusions or transplants of animal-derived heart valves, actually. I can't decide between the two, so I abstain.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> As far as vaccination of children is concerned, I'm in two minds. On one hand, I respect the right of the parents to decide on behalf of their child which drugs and procedures are appropriate or not. On the other, I also believe that the state should protect minors from adults who are stupid, since their decisions affect the rest of the child's life. We have a similar problem with religious exemptions in regards to blood transfusions or heart valves animal-derived heart valves, actually. I can't decide between the two, so I abstain.


I suppose that means you have to abstain from the topic of mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations for minors then.


----------



## seany1990 (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> On the other, I also believe that the state should protect minors from adults who are stupid, since their decisions affect the rest of the child's life.


So arrest every parent at Trump rallies? It's a surprising take from you but I dig it


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I suppose that means you have to abstain from the topic of mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations for minors then.


It's more specific, if anything.


seany1990 said:


> So arrest every parent at Trump rallies? It's a surprising take from you but I dig it


Never said that, but okay.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Aug 23, 2021)

Dunno about direct mandates to force people getting vaccinated. In our country tests will no longer be free in a few months with the assumption that all people who want got vaccinated by them. They will still be free for people who can't get vaccinated for various reasons. We had mask mandates for a long time however and that's perfectly fine.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not against mask mandates, it's a piece of cloth - grow up. I am against vaccination mandates, even though I am pro vaccine all the way. Nobody should be forced to undergo any medical procedure or take any drug they don't want just because the government tells them to, even if they refuse for boneheaded reasons.


I suppose you could have the unvaccinated sequester themselves for a really long time, until herd immunity has been reached and new cases drop way off... Seems costly and like a good motivation for antivaxxers to reevaluate their decisions! But hey, I am sure that if they make good life choices and prayed to Bob, they'll have the resources to pull through just fine.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 23, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Can't wait for more mandates with the FDA approval. Yes, I am being serious. I am 100% in favor of more mandates. It's amusing watching people cry about their freedoms. Guess what? Anti-vaxxers/maskers aren't the only ones with freedoms. Plenty of people have the freedom to create mandates. You want your freedom respected? Then you also need to respect the freedom of others to not let you into their restaurant, bar, movie theater, sporting event, grocery store, whatever the case may be. The thing about the antis is that they for some odd reason think they are the only ones who have freedoms. No one can force you to take the vaccine, but they CAN force you out of their business & your job for not taking it. That's THEIR freedom. Suck it. Can't have freedom only your way.



I'd posit the argument that there is a difference between a business refusing antivaxers (or to making a gay cake), and a government forcing said business to do so.   If you are making the argument that people are free to force you to do something, then ignore that I said anything.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I mean, the Dunning-Kruger effect is already well-documented. Moreover, people who experience success in one field automatically feel more qualified to speak on all subjects, not just their area of expertise, since how hard could it be compared to X, X being what they're already good at. This reminds me of Neil the ass Tyson routinely making a fool of himself when talking about biology - he's an astrophysicist, his knowledge of biology is on the level of a high school student, and it shows.
> https://www.twitter.com/neiltyson/status/708427052433678336
> For the record, there are multiple species to which sex is excruciatingly painful or even fatal. His various gaffes will never stop being funny to me, the guy doesn't know how to stay in his lane.


Dunning Kruger may be well documented but you still want to bring in more data especially how different it may have been during covid.

Data during covid may be more impactful then data from other events because its something all of us were affected by and is something people will pay attention to more because of this reason.



Lacius said:


> FDA grants full approval to Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine. Please put down the horse de-wormers and go get vaccinated.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/23/health/fda-approval-pfizer-covid-vaccine/index.html


Yay that's the one I got.

I can't believe people trusted Horse de-wormers over covid vaccine lol. This is how stupid it's gotten. It amazes me, it really does, the amount of stupid.

You're not a horse FDA says lol.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/23/fda-horse-message-ivermectin-covid-coronavirus


Hopefully now people against the vaccine will go out and get it.

I'm still sure people will still be anti vaccine the ones complaining about long term effects. Or people that are like, I won't take it because you can't tell me what to do na na na. While sticking their tongue out and making a looser symbol with their hand on their forhead.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 23, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'd posit the argument that there is a difference between a business refusing antivaxers (or to making a gay cake), and a government forcing said business to do so.   If you are making the argument that people are free to force you to do something, then ignore that I said anything.


Your freedom to swing your fist stops at the tip of my nose. Anti-vaxxors are a threat to the people around them as they continue to spread Covid. At some point there needs to be an acknowledgment that the movement is wrong and needs to stop. If it requires pressuring businesses to refuse services in order to prevent the spread of Covid, then it’s only the fault of those refusing to get the vaccine. It is the anti-vaccine movement’s fault when they have to face the consequences of their own actions.


----------



## m_babble (Aug 23, 2021)

Insurance companies should start denying coverage for unvaccinated COVID patients. Let them pay out of pocket.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 23, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'd posit the argument that there is a difference between a business refusing antivaxers (or to making a gay cake), and a government forcing said business to do so.   If you are making the argument that people are free to force you to do something, then ignore that I said anything.


You have the right to kiss every rat in the sewer to your heart's content. You do not have the right, however, to lick doorhandles in a school knowing you've caught the bubonic plague. You have the right to buy fireworks in some states. You do not have the right to light them off in a movie theater. I actually disagree about religious exemptions regarding the cake comparison (broadly speaking, your rules with your imaginary friends are your own business and should not impact others) but when it comes to public health during an outbreak, our bodies literally become potential weapons and need enforcement and regulations.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I suppose you could have the unvaccinated sequester themselves for a really long time, until herd immunity has been reached and new cases drop way off... Seems costly and like a good motivation for antivaxxers to reevaluate their decisions! But hey, I am sure that if they make good life choices and prayed to Bob, they'll have the resources to pull through just fine.


I'm afraid that the state doesn't get to restrict the freedom of perfectly healthy individuals just because they didn't undergo a medical procedure that's highly recommended for their safety.


Lilith Valentine said:


> Your freedom to swing your fist stops at the tip of my nose. Anti-vaxxors are a threat to the people around them as they continue to spread Covid. At some point there needs to be an acknowledgment that the movement is wrong and needs to stop. If it requires pressuring businesses to refuse services in order to prevent the spread of Covid, then it’s only the fault of those refusing to get the vaccine. It is the anti-vaccine movement’s fault when they have to face the consequences of their own actions.


Total non-argument. Other people are not burdened with keeping you safe - that responsibility falls on you. You have the agency to get the jab to ensure that you are immunised, which greatly reduces your risk of contracting the virus and becoming ill - that agency doesn't extend to forcing third parties to do the same. Just because something is good, which the vaccine definitely is, doesn't mean that you have the right to force it on others without their consent. It's a simple matter of bodily autonomy - I was under the impression that you guys were in favour of it, but I may be mistaken.


m_babble said:


> Insurance companies should start denying coverage for unvaccinated COVID patients. Let them pay out of pocket.


I wonder if lack of immunity against a virus is a pre-existing condition.


----------



## gene0915 (Aug 23, 2021)

Don't worry sheep..... big pharma always has your best interests at heart and would never ever ever lie about anything, ESPECIALLY the safety of COVID-1984 "vaccines":

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/merck-...y-neutralize-or-discredit-dissenting-doctors/

https://www.seegerweiss.com/drug-injury/vioxx-lawsuit/

https://www.npr.org/series/5033105/vioxx-the-downfall-of-a-drug

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/just...gest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history







https://streamable.com/ighq44 (and trolls like lacius will reply...."of course the CDC is flip flopping, they are just going off of newly released data duh!"

Funny..... I knew what the CDC is now flip flopping about as soon as delta landed. Guess that makes me smarter than Fauci the fraudster and everyone at the CDC? Or maybe I have a special ability that lets me see into the future?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/merck-...y-neutralize-or-discredit-dissenting-doctors/
> 
> https://www.seegerweiss.com/drug-injury/vioxx-lawsuit/
> 
> ...


That's why you should listen to the independent scientists who don't have a financial or political interest in what's being claimed. If you do that, you will see that the overwhelming consensus from independent scientists is that the vaccines are safe and effective. You generally can't find a lot of dissenting opinions with regard to COVID-19 vaccination in the medical community that aren't financially or politically motivated.



gene0915 said:


> https://streamable.com/ighq44 (and trolls like lacius will reply...."of course the CDC is flip flopping, they are just going off of newly released data duh!"
> 
> Funny..... I knew what the CDC is now flip flopping about as soon as delta landed. Guess that makes me smarter than Fauci the fraudster and everyone at the CDC? Or maybe I have a special ability that lets me see into the future?


The delta variant is different from previous variants. With older variants, the vaccines made one less likely to contract COVID-19, and even if there was a breakthrough infection, the viral load was must lower.

Unfortunately, with the delta variant, the viral load in a vaccinated person suffering from a breakthrough infection is comparable to the viral load of someone infected who is unvaccinated. Fortunately though, the vaccines are still pretty effective against getting infected with the delta variant in the first place.

The more people who are vaccinated, the less likely anybody (vaccinated or not) will be exposed to the virus and get infected.



Foxi4 said:


> I wonder if lack of immunity against a virus is a pre-existing condition.


Yes and no. "Pre-existing conditions" as a reason for denying coverage or raising prices is illegal in the United States, but certain voluntary behaviors like smoking, not getting an annual check-up, etc. are allowed to result in higher prices. The same should go for not getting vaccinated, and I don't think this should be limited to COVID-19 vaccines.


----------



## gene0915 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> That's why you should listen to the independent scientists who don't have a financial or political interest in what's being claimed. If you do that, you will see that the overwhelming consensus from independent scientists is that the vaccines are safe and effective. You generally can't find a lot of dissenting opinions with regard to COVID-19 vaccination in the medical community that aren't financially or politically motivated.
> 
> The delta variant is different from previous variants. With older variants, the vaccines made one less likely to contract COVID-19, and even if there was a breakthrough infection, the viral load was must lower.
> 
> ...



The independent scientists that are blacklisted by all social media? You crack me up, seriously, I'm lulzing over here!! I see the genius in your right wing trolling and love it!!


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> The independent scientists that are blacklisted by all social media? You crack me up, seriously, I'm lulzing over here!! I see the genius in your right wing trolling and love it!!


If someone is "blacklisted on social media," it probably means they're peddling misleading and unscientific claims. I'd have to know what you're talking about.


----------



## gene0915 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If someone is "blacklisted on social media," it probably means they're peddling misleading and unscientific claims. I'd have to know what you're talking about.



HAHAHA, I hear ya! wink wink nod nod lulz!!!!!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Guess some teachers in NYC need to learn to code: https://www.zerohedge.com/political...l-staff-either-get-vaccinated-or-find-new-job


----------



## JoeBloggs777 (Aug 23, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Don't worry sheep..... big pharma always has your best interests at heart and would never ever ever lie about anything, ESPECIALLY the safety of COVID-1984 "vaccines":



I trust the misses who works in A&E, nearly everyone who comes to A&E now with covid symptoms had refused to take one of the vaccines when they were offered one. some are  their pants when they get asked why they didn't take the vaccine and are sent home to isolate and  get  a telling off  for going to A&E with covid and risk spreading covid further.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> HAHAHA, I hear ya! wink wink nod nod lulz!!!!!


I'll take your lack of a substantive response to be a concession.



gene0915 said:


> Guess some teachers in NYC need to learn to code: https://www.zerohedge.com/political...l-staff-either-get-vaccinated-or-find-new-job


No need to do that when you can just get vaccinated instead of potentially putting your students and their families at risk.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not against mask mandates, it's a piece of cloth - grow up. I am against vaccination mandates, even though I am pro vaccine all the way. Nobody should be forced to undergo any medical procedure or take any drug they don't want just because the government tells them to, even if they refuse for boneheaded reasons.



You can be against mask mandate all you want, but grow up. I also said nothing about mandates to force anyone to take the actual vaccination.

Someone already pointed out schools and children. How about the military where big, tough, strong anti-vaxxer adults would be given nice vax cocktails so they can go fight their wars and play army men... yet I don't hear any of those gung go Call of Duty hyper-Patriotic junkies complain bout vaccines. I imagine theres going to be a bunch of pussy vaccinated libs fighting our wars for us now.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Yes and no. "Pre-existing conditions" as a reason for denying coverage or raising prices is illegal in the United States, but certain voluntary behaviors like smoking, not getting an annual check-up, etc. are allowed to result in higher prices. The same should go for not getting vaccinated, and I don't think this should be limited to COVID-19 vaccines.


That's not a response to what was suggested. The suggestion was that people who did not receive their vaccine or refuse to take it should be *denied* coverage. If we're only talking about an increase in price then I'm absolutely in favour as it's a known risk factor that the insurer has to account for when selling a plan to a customer, same as a history smoking etc., my contention was that until 5 minutes ago everyone "deserved health insurance and coverage as a right" whereas now I see calls for denying insurance based on people's decisions regarding their own personal health. Not that I want to lump all liberals into one basket since that's silly, but you guys need to figure out what policies you actually support. From where I'm sitting it's looking like some weather vane action going on. If you're on the "healthcare is a right" train then you don't get to pull that rug out from under people when you feel like it. The conservative side of the argument is much more consistent on this - insurance and healthcare are not rights and you get to slam stupid people with premiums if they make decisions hazardous to their health. I'm fairly surprised that it's also*your* position, but then again, your position includes a vaccine mandate from what I gathered, so in your ideal world it would be a non-issue as compliance would be a requirement in the first place.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> That's not a response to what was suggested. The suggestion was that people who did not receive their vaccine or refuse to take it should be *denied* coverage. If we're only talking about an increase in price then I'm absolutely in favour as it's a known risk factor that the insurer has to account for when selling a plan to a customer, same as a history smoking etc., my contention was until 5 minutes ago everyone "deserved health insurance and coverage as a right" whereas now I see calls for denying insurance based on subjective feelings regarding people's decisions regarding their own health. Not that I want to lump all liberals into one basket since that's silly, but you guys need to figure out what policies you actually support. From where I'm sitting it's looking like some weather vane action going on. If you're on the "healthcare is a right" train then you don't get to pull that rug out from under people when you feel like it. The conservative side of the argument is much more consistent on this - insurance and healthcare are not rights and you get to slam stupid people with premiums if they make decisions hazardous to their health. I'm fairly surprised that's also *your* position, but then again, your position is also a vaccine mandate from what I gathered, so in your ideal world it would be a non-issue since compliance would be a requirement in the first place.


My only "position" was that pre-existing conditions denials are illegal in the United States, but increases in insurance prices for specific voluntary behaviors are not.

My positions on health care are that it should be a right, and we should have Medicare for All, regardless of whether or not someone is a smoker, anti-vaxxers, etc.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> that agency doesn't extend to forcing third parties to do the same. Just because something is good, which the vaccine definitely is, doesn't mean that you have the right to force it on others without their consent. It's a simple matter of bodily autonomy - I was under the impression that you guys were in favour of it, but I may be mistaken.
> I wonder if lack of immunity against a virus is a pre-existing condition.


Whether or not people should have a choice in bodily autonomy should be situation dependent.

A Woman and on the topic of abortion, the women should have bodily autonomy to choose to get abortion if she wants too. And getting abortion can help with not being dependent on gov programs like food stamps and give the women opprotunities to not worry about a kid and easily pursue a career which forcing a women to have a baby makes it harder. People make mistakes and forcing a women to deal with those mistakes and having a baby she can't afford or want, can be a public bad also with gov programs taking care of her and/or the child growing up neglected by the mother that never wanted that kid.

But in the situation of covid the vaccine has shown to be effective and has gotten FDA approval and is for the good of the public to end covid. There is hardly any negatives to getting the vaccine besides the small % of people who will react negatively to the vaccine and they should be exempt.

Bodily autonomy should only be if it can provide a benifit to the person and to the general public. I don't see negative's to granting women bodily autonomy. But I see negatives to granting anti vaxxers bodily autonomy.

I would only grant bodily autonomy to vaccines that have not much scientific backing on it. Then bodily autonomy in this situation makes sense. Again bodily autonomy being situation dependent.


These are my thoughts right now as I haven't formulated well thought out points on this topic as I am still unsure about medical mandates like vaccines. So my initial thoughts can change on this. I can see people against vaccine mandates so i'm not hating on them. I just haven't thought this through yet so I am still working out different points and scenarios. A brain storming basically.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> My only "position" was that pre-existing conditions denials are illegal in the United States, but increases in insurance prices for specific voluntary behaviors are not.
> 
> My positions on health care are that it should be a right, and we should have Medicare for All, regardless of whether or not someone is a smoker, anti-vaxxers, etc.


Oh, I was referencing previous discussions on this subject. Glad that you're at least consistent with your stance - that's a good thing. I'm happy to shake on higher premiums for people at higher risk, that makes perfect sense to me, particularly if it's self-inflicted. It's a good motivator too - "do this good thing and your bill goes down, don't do it and we'll just keep charging you". Beautifully capitalist solution.


SG854 said:


> Whether or not people should have a choice in bodily autonomy should be situation dependent.
> 
> A Woman and on the topic of abortion, the women should have bodily autonomy to choose to get abortion if she wants too. And getting abortion can help with not being dependent on gov programs like food stamps and give the women opprotunities to not worry about a kid and easily pursue a career which forcing a women to have a baby makes it harder. People make mistakes and forcing a women to deal with those mistakes and having a baby she can't afford or want, can be a public bad also with gov programs taking care of her and/or the child growing up neglected by the mother that never wanted that kid.
> 
> ...


Rights are not "granted" or "taken away" at the behest of the government, nor are they conditional. They're immutable and inalienable, that's what makes them "rights" as opposed to "privileges". Bodily autonomy is not a privilege, it is a right. I don't find the common/greater good to be compelling - I don't care about any common or greater good, I care about my rights, and about the state not infringing them, or being given a mandate to do so. Keep in mind, I'm 100% Pro vaccine, everyone should get it as soon as they can, however I'm not in favour of forcing it on people at the point of a gun, which is what the government is. If you point that loaded gun at one person, don't be surprised if at some point you'll be looking at the barrel yourself. There's a heck of a lot of things that are for "the greater good" that you wouldn't want anything to do with.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Total non-argument. Other people are not burdened with keeping you safe - that responsibility falls on you. You have the agency to get the jab to ensure that you are immunised, which greatly reduces your risk of contracting the virus and becoming ill - that agency doesn't extend to forcing third parties to do the same. Just because something is good, which the vaccine definitely is, doesn't mean that you have the right to force it on others without their consent. It's a simple matter of bodily autonomy - I was under the impression that you guys were in favour of it, but I may be mistaken.


People not being vaccinated are the problem and them choosing to not get vaccinated is a threat to everyone around them. I am not suggesting forcing them to get vaccinated, but I am suggesting that everyone has to right to refuse service to them for continuing to spread Covid. Anti-vaxxors are harmful, the recent spike in viruses almost completely eliminated is more than enough proof that they are dangerous to others around them. I am protecting myself and I am vaccinated but that only goes so far when people are refusing to get vaccinated and the virus continues to mutate as a result. Anti-vaxxors are the problem.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> People not being vaccinated are the problem and them choosing to not get vaccinated is a threat to everyone around them. I am not suggesting forcing them to get vaccinated, but I am suggesting that everyone has to right to refuse service to them for continuing to spread Covid. Anti-vaxxors are harmful, the recent spike in viruses almost completely eliminated is more than enough proof that they are dangerous to others around them. I am protecting myself and I am vaccinated but that only goes so far when people are refusing to get vaccinated and the virus continues to mutate as a result. Anti-vaxxors are the problem.


I am 100% in support of the right of any business to refuse service to anyone based on whatever benchmark the business sets, I'm just surprised to see liberals advocating for the same thing. I'm pro freedom and anti coercion.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I am 100% in support for the right of any business to refuse service to anyone based on whatever benchmark the business sets, I'm just surprised to see liberals advocating for the same thing. I'm pro freedom and anti coercion.


I am not a Liberal, I am an ancom.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am not a Liberal, I am an ancom.


That's pretty liberal.


----------



## gene0915 (Aug 23, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> I imagine theres going to be a bunch of pussy vaccinated libs fighting our wars for us now.



Ouch..... is that any way to talk about lacius? Cold blooded!

I'm sure the woke army of today/tomorrow is just as capable of the rough and tough GI's that got us through WW2 and Vietnam!!!! I mean sure, we had to lower some standards to pass enough hardy recruits but that's OK.

After watching these 2 ads, I know which country I'd be willing to have israel tell me which pile of sand to die in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Ouch..... is that any way to talk about lacius? Cold blooded!



I'm not in the armed forces.
I think you missed the point of the statement.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> That's pretty liberal.
> View attachment 273828


I am going to disagree and not bring this topic into the semantics of where Liberalism lays on the political spectrum


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I am 100% in support of the right of any business to refuse service to anyone based on whatever benchmark the business sets, I'm just surprised to see liberals advocating for the same thing. I'm pro freedom and anti coercion.


In practice, it is just coercion from businesses instead.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I am 100% in support of the right of any business to refuse service to anyone based on whatever benchmark the business sets, I'm just surprised to see liberals advocating for the same thing. I'm pro freedom and anti coercion.


It's a bit unfair to say that people on the left are being somehow contradictory by suggesting that businesses should be allowed to refuse service to anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers, just as we've always been okay with businesses refusing services to people for other reasons like not wearing the proper attire, etc. We draw the line at businesses being able to refuse service to people on the basis of immutable characteristics like race and sexuality.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> In practice, it is just coercion from businesses instead.


No, it's an individual exercising their right to not do business with you. They're not using force or leverage against you, they just don't want you on their property - you're the one trying to use the government to coerce them into letting you in and exchanging goods/services with you. They're not the party using force - you are. Of course this only applies to instances when you're not okay with that - it seems you've specified an instance when you are.


Lacius said:


> It's a bit unfair to say that people on the left are being somehow contradictory by suggesting that businesses should be allowed to refuse service to anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers, just as we've always been okay with businesses refusing services to people for other reasons like not wearing the proper attire, etc. We draw the line at businesses being able to refuse service to people on the basis of immutable characteristics like race and sexuality.


No, it's not. You're acknowledging the authority the business owner has in regards to which patrons they want to do business with and which ones they don't, you're just choosing to be selective about it. I'm not - I acknowledge that right in all instances because I respect the fact that it's their property, not mine. For the record, we're in agreement that discriminating against your customer base is stupid (and a bad business move), I'd just like to see some consistency.


Lilith Valentine said:


> I am going to disagree and not bring this topic into the semantics of where Liberalism lays on the political spectrum


That's fine, you don't have to acknowledge the fact that anarcho-communism is on the far liberal left. You don't have to acknowledge anything, including that the Earth orbits the sun, it has no bearing on the truth of the matter.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> No, it's not. You're acknowledging the authority the business owner has in regards to which patrons they want to do business with and which ones they don't, you're just choosing to be selective about it. I'm not - I acknowledge that right in all instances because I respect the fact that it's their property, not mine. For the record, we're in agreement that discriminating against your customer is stupid, I'd just like to see some consistency.


But you're assuming here that these people were ever for the right of a business to no questions asked refuse service for any reason, which they might not be. The position 'I think business owners should be able to refuse service based on the attire of a customer/the customer putting my health at potential risk, but I dont think they should be able to refuse service based on characteristics they do not choose such as gender, race, sexuality, etc' is not contradictory or hypocritical. Note this doesnt necessarily reflect my personal views on the matter.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> you're just choosing to be selective about it.


It's about as selective as being against murder, but with self-defense exceptions. Technically true, but not especially problematic.

We agree businesses generally should have the right to be selective about with whom they do business, but those of us on the left believe that right ends where people's civil rights begin.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Ibcap said:


> But you're assuming here that these people were ever for the right of a business to no questions asked refuse service for any reason, which they might not be. The position 'I think business owners should be able to refuse service based on the attire of a customer/the customer putting my health at potential risk, but I dont think they should be able to refuse service based on characteristics they do not choose such as gender, race, sexuality, etc' is not contradictory or hypocritical. Note this doesnt necessarily reflect my personal views on the matter.


Specificity is good. I'm just pointing out that we seem to be picking and choosing when the business is owned by the owner and when it's the government that runs it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it depends on your point of view I suppose, but it is quite funny to hear the same crowd voice two ostensibly contradictory opinions.


Lacius said:


> It's about as selective as being against murder, but with self-defense exceptions. Technically true, but not especially problematic.
> 
> We agree businesses generally should have the right to be selective about with whom they do business, but those of us on the left believe that right ends where people's civil rights begin.


Murder is a bad example since killing someone in self-defense isn't classified as such. We don't make a special exception here - all murders are killings, but not all killings are murder. I get your point, though the word choice is not ideal. Murder is a very specific and distinct type of a killing.


----------



## Ibcap (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Specificity is good. I'm just pointing out that we seem to be picking and choosing when the business is owned by the owner and when it's the government that runs it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it depends on your point of view I suppose, but it is quite funny to hear the same crowd voice two ostensibly contradictory opinions.


I don't believe its contradictory because theres very large differences between these two situations. Again ill reiterate im not stating my own opinions here but rather outlining a thought process that someone could have. You could very easily argue that the government has a duty to protect people from being discriminated off of characteristics they are born with (which there is a precedent for, we have plenty of laws against refusing to serve black people for example) but also think that businesses can refuse service based on things the person does actively choose, such as attire. For example, a nice restaurant not serving someone who is in a tshirt. This is not just a logical thought process, but largely how the law works. There *are* laws against discriminating against many birth traits so this belief has historical and legal precedent.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Specificity is good. I'm just pointing out that we seem to be picking and choosing when the business is owned by the owner and when it's the government that runs it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it depends on your point of view I suppose, but it is quite funny to hear the same crowd voice two ostensibly contradictory opinions.
> Murder is a bad example since killing someone in self-defense isn't classified as such. We don't make a special exception here - all murders are killings, but not all killings are murder. I get your point, though the word choice is not ideal. Murder is a very specific and distinct type of a killing.


Swap out the word "murder" for "killing," and my point stands, yes.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> No, it's an individual exercising their right to not do business with you. They're not using force or leverage against you, they just don't want you on their property - you're the one trying to use the government to coerce them into letting you in and exchanging goods/services with you. They're not the party using force - you are. Of course this only applies to instances when you're not okay with that - it seems you've specified an instance when you are.


What happens when companies as a whole start to block out a specific group? Oh wait... We know what happens. Suddenly the "party of not using force" forces companies not to have mandates.  


Also, since when is it right for anyone, let alone companies, to endanger anyone?


----------



## smf (Aug 23, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Murder is a bad example since killing someone in self-defense isn't classified as such.



It's a good example because it is arbitrarily classified as such. Some peoples idea of self defense is that the attacker was running away and was scared they might return, so I should take advantage of killing him now. Some people would require an attacker to have a knife a their throat for it to be self defense.

If there is no guarantee that the person would actually go through with killing you, then you're just killing someone because in that moment you wanted to kill them. Which is basically the same as what you're accusing them of.

What happens if two people think the other is going to kill them? Who gets a free pass to kill the other and who is the murderer? 

How do we even know the survivor is telling the truth? Maybe like all "good guys with a gun" they are just waiting for the opportunity of a government sanctioned killing.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 23, 2021)

gene0915 said:


> Ouch..... is that any way to talk about lacius? Cold blooded!
> 
> I'm sure the woke army of today/tomorrow is just as capable of the rough and tough GI's that got us through WW2 and Vietnam!!!! I mean sure, we had to lower some standards to pass enough hardy recruits but that's OK.
> 
> After watching these 2 ads, I know which country I'd be willing to have israel tell me which pile of sand to die in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111




Please see Lacius reply to this. Specifically point #2. Thanks.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 23, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Swap out the word "murder" for "killing," and my point stands, yes.


Perhaps. We'd have to have a whole different discussion about what constitutes civil rights. I would argue that the right to self-determine, which encompasses the choice to undertake or not undertake medical procedures, is included in that list.


smf said:


> It's a good example because it is arbitrarily classified as such. Some peoples idea of self defense is that the attacker was running away and was scared they might return, so I should take advantage of killing him now. Some people would require an attacker to have a knife a their throat for it to be self defense.
> 
> If there is no guarantee that the person would actually go through with killing you, then you're just killing someone because in that moment you wanted to kill them. Which is basically the same as what you're accusing them of.
> 
> ...


The distinction is not arbitrary. Bad math and bad logic.


KingVamp said:


> What happens when companies as a whole start to block out a specific group? Oh wait... We know what happens. Suddenly the "party of not using force" forces companies not to have mandates.
> 
> 
> Also, since when is it right for anyone, let alone companies, to endanger anyone?


Oh, I'm not aligned with either side of the uniparty - Democrats are liberal when it suits them, Republicans are conservative when it suits them. Neither party actually represents the ideals they espouse.

As for the "right of companies to endanger people", that's another logical leap on your part. You are not required to shop in establishments that do not have a mask or vaccine mandate - you choose your shopping destinations yourself. You entering the building is elective, so if anyone is endangering you, that'd be yourself. I don't know about you, but I don't shop in stores I don't like, or ones with policies that I dislike.


Ibcap said:


> I don't believe its contradictory because theres very large differences between these two situations. Again ill reiterate im not stating my own opinions here but rather outlining a thought process that someone could have. You could very easily argue that the government has a duty to protect people from being discriminated off of characteristics they are born with (which there is a precedent for, we have plenty of laws against refusing to serve black people for example) but also think that businesses can refuse service based on things the person does actively choose, such as attire. *For example, a nice restaurant not serving someone who is in a tshirt.* This is not just a logical thought process, but largely how the law works. There *are* laws against discriminating against many birth traits so this belief has historical and legal precedent.


There is a sizeable contingent of people who would call that segregation. What if somebody cannot afford a suit, but can afford a meal once in a blue moon? Are you not discriminating against the poor? Or minorities? Is it not a "nice" restaurant anymore if the patrons have t-shirts on? What's not "nice" about it anymore? What if someone cannot wear a suit for religious reasons? It's all discrimination, it's just a form of discrimination we're broadly okay with.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 24, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Oh, I'm not aligned with either side of the uniparty


Aligned enough to support Trump. 



Foxi4 said:


> As for the "right of companies to endanger people", that's another logical leap on your part. You are not required to shop in establishments that do not have a mask or vaccine mandate - you choose your shopping destinations yourself. You entering the building is elective, so if anyone is endangering you, that'd be yourself. I don't know about you, but I don't shop in stores I don't like, or ones with policies that I dislike.


Except they increase the chance that the virus spreads, even if others decided not to go to that shop.


----------



## silien3 (Aug 24, 2021)

I know my examples are exaggerated but given the perverse logic here as much to go there frankly the prohibition of a company this increases the risk of accident if the store is far away additionally that we use more money since its more it removes more money for gasoline and or transport and therefore less for food equal bad nutrition there are so many other examples as attempted murder if a madman passes and targets those without the passes who will be seen because refusal open in front of everyone

to be vaxinator or not does not look at the company its illegal to force the request and deprive a person of his life deprive these like asking do you have a penis between the legs its does not concern the strangers only those who have a certain intimacy relationel exept doctor and during a police investigation which must be deprived and only concerns the parties concerned it remains deprived in short if not as much to say that the rapists are in their right because the person in front is asleep/drug it is nonsense

so hypocritical xenophobic and segregationist his crazy

now for


Lacius said:


> Swap out the word "murder" for "killing," and my point stands, yes.


No, self-defense does not mean killing the advairsaire but preventing him from harming us we know how to do it without killing if the advairsaire is unable to continue the fight we tie him up and lock him up somewhere without a weapon and call the police in another case we defent the advairsaire dies after the cost it remains an accident and therefore is not at all an act wanting to kill and is not at all a voluntary act in revenge put out of state the advairsaire and continue after is not self-defense that remains a murder its simple and you pervert self defense yes shoot if you have a gun like the bad guy shoot you to defend yourself if the bad guy also has a gun we can put him in the accident if your life was threatened and so you could not think but if the advairsaire had a blunt weapon shoot in the arm or the leg and call the police and the ambulance anything else is murder unless you know how to target his remains an accident if you ou aim precisely the arms and legs a murder remains a murder an accident an accident kill to kill its a murder host a life unwittingly its an accident to kill because there is a threat and we want to remove it remains a murder the murder is entirely intolerable self-defense is totally tolerable when there is an intention to host life and there is no longer self-defense

there is no point of view here to have everything is well defined accident or murder


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 24, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Aligned enough to support Trump.


Ah yes, Trump - textbook republican. I can understand stupid people falling for it, but it's always disappointing when the "smart ones" don't pick up on what the play is.


> Except they increase the chance that the virus spreads, even if others decided not to go to that shop.


So what? You're not on charge of that, nobody is - it's a virus.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 24, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Ah yes, Trump - textbook republican. I can understand stupid people falling for it, but it's always disappointing when the "smart ones" don't pick up on what the play is.


Make the rich richer. (Ex: Tax cuts.) 
Roll back rights. (Ex: Trans from military.)
Deregulation, not caring who is or what is hurt in the process. (Ex. Climate protection roll backs.)

He is different how?



Foxi4 said:


> So what? You're not on charge of that, nobody is - it's a virus.


Well, even you admitted that the job of the government is to protect people, so clearly at least someone is in charge. 



Foxi4 said:


> I'm not against mask mandates, it's a piece of cloth - grow up.


What happened to liberty? I thought no one was in charge.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 24, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Make the rich richer. (Ex: Tax cuts.)
> Roll back rights. (Ex: Trans from military.)
> Deregulation, not caring who is or what is hurt in the process. (Ex. Climate protection roll backs.)
> 
> He is different how?



The tax cuts benefitted every single level of the income ladder
Serving in the military is not a right
Boo-hoo
You'll just have to figure that one out yourself, this is not the subject of this thread



> Well, even you admitted that the job of the government is to protect people, so clearly at least someone is in charge.


From internal and external threats, not from the consequences of people's own decisions in regards to their own health. I could protect you pretty well too - I can lock you up in a plexiglass cube, I guarantee that you will never fall ill, get assaulted or otherwise harmed. The cost is just your rights - great, based on your train of thought.


> What happened to liberty? I thought no one was in charge.


Requiring someone to wear a specific kind of garment does not infringe on their right to bodily integrity, does not force them to undergo a medical procedure against their consent (in violation of the 4th amendment which guarantees a citizen is "secure in their person" which extends beyond seizures and the 5th + 14th amendments which clearly state that no person can be deprived of their life, *liberty* or property without due process, these three being the basis for treatment refusal in the U.S.) and causes them no potential harm. Vaccines *can* cause harm, albeit unintentionally - the risk is infinitesimally small, vaccine injury is exceedingly rare, but all you can hope for is informed consent. There are pre-existing expectations in regards to dress code, there are no such expectations in regards to medical history, which is an entirely private matter.


----------



## smf (Aug 24, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The distinction is not arbitrary. Bad math and bad logic.



The exact point where something is or isn't self defense is pretty arbitrary. There will be times when the court does not agree with the defendant, it's just a wide range of opinions with an arbitrary cut off.

But then I don't expect you to understand the real world, your thinking is too rigidly black and white.

If it's only enough to have a reasonable belief that someone wishes you harm, then an unvaccinated/unmasked person who doesn't take any precautions to prevent themselves getting covid is about as dangerous as someone pointing a knife at you. So why can't we just shoot them? It's self defense. Or at least ban them from doing things that put other people at risk.

Is it really any different from banning drunk drivers from driving, or taking away gun licenses from people who have gone round shooting indiscriminately in public?


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 24, 2021)

smf said:


> The exact point where something is or isn't self defense is pretty arbitrary. There will be times when the court does not agree with the defendant, it's just a wide range of opinions with an arbitrary cut off.
> 
> But then I don't expect you to understand the real world, your thinking is too rigidly black and white.
> 
> ...


Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder

arbitrary /ˈɑːbɪt(rə)ri/
_adjective_

Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any *reason or system*.

The distinction is not arbitrary. The rest of your post is just waffling off-topic, as usual.


----------



## smf (Aug 24, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
> 
> ...



You realize that the people who make the decision whether it was with justification or valid excuse are arbitrarily deciding that?

Of course you don't. You have no idea about anything at all, I'm not sure why you're even here embarrassing yourself.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 24, 2021)

smf said:


> You realize that the people who make the decision whether it was with justification or valid excuse are arbitrarily deciding that?
> 
> Of course you don't. You have no idea about anything at all, I'm not sure why you're even here embarrassing yourself.


They make that decision based on the preponderance of evidence. The system is by definition not arbitrary because it's governed by a specific set of rules which are applied to each case in order to ascertain if a murder has in fact occurred. It's not my fault that you choose to use Scrabble words you don't understand, the only person getting thoroughly embarrassed here is you.

Your little thought experiment was equally stupid since you based it on a false premise. To respond briefly, if an individual walks down the street next to you with a gun in their holster, you are immediately aware that they have a device which can kill you instantly. You *might* feel discomfort, but that is not a justification to kill that person - you feeling threatened is your problem. You have justification when that gun is aimed at you and a reasonable person would assume that your life was in jeopardy - the reasonable person in the event of a court proceeding would be the judge and/or the jury. It's hardly "arbitrary", it's governed by law, and actually a fairly simple determination to make.

Nobody is responsible for your comfort level. You lack the ability to ascertain if a third-party is vaccinated or not, you don't know if they're infected or not, assuming they were, you have no idea if they're contagious or not, or even if you'd catch the virus at all given the fact that you cannot measure your own level of immunity. In other words, you think self-defense is justified in this scenario despite not knowing if there is even a gun at the scene, let alone one that is pointed at you. Your scenario is preposterous to the point of being absurd, but we do have a name for harboring those kinds of feelings - paranoia. That, and delusions of grandeur, given how sure you are that doubling down on stupid is a winning strategy.

Try again, maybe next time you'll get a W, or maybe your sizeable collection of L's will just keep growing.


----------



## smf (Aug 25, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> They make that decision based on the preponderance of evidence.



You're waffling on again to try to prove a point & failing, when you are in front of a jury the preponderance of evidence is just an arbitrary decision based on prejudice and bad reasoning.

Which is why 375 guilty verdicts in the US have been later overturned by dna evidence, 69% of which included positive eye witness identification of the person who later turned out to be innocent.

I don't know the figures for people who were given not guilty verdicts but later dna evidence was used to prove them guilty, there was someone in the news here recently.

And for the people with guilty/not guilty verdicts where dna evidence hasn't come along to right the wrong, the decision of the court was largely arbitrary.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 25, 2021)

smf said:


> You're waffling on again to try to prove a point & failing, when you are in front of a jury the preponderance of evidence is just an arbitrary decision based on prejudice and bad reasoning.
> 
> Which is why 375 guilty verdicts in the US have been later overturned by dna evidence, 69% of which included positive eye witness identification of the person who later turned out to be innocent.
> 
> ...


I never said that every conviction is 100% correct. If witness accounts are inaccurate or evidence is incomplete, it can lead to a wrongful conviction, which is rare, but does happen, and can be overturned based on the same system. What I said, specifically, is that the system is not arbitrary, and it's not, as illustrated by the overturned convictions based on newfound evidence you just mentioned. If you need help understanding what the word "arbitrary" means, I did post a dictionary definition earlier. If you need a shovel to dig yourself a deeper hole, try Home Depot, or in your case, B&Q.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 26, 2021)

SG854 said:


> I barely saw your response right now. Sometimes Temp doesn't notify me.
> 
> I think I agree that some people think things are for the greater good and force them onto people when in reality they are not. So in that case forcing something like the vaccine while most people agree is good will lead to a slippery slope of other bad things to happen.
> 
> ...


"My rights get trampled over all the time, so what's the big deal, really?" is an argument in favour of authoritarianism and totalitarianism. I'm not going to argue that because it goes beyond the scope of the thread, I just want you to realise that.


----------



## smf (Aug 26, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> What I said, specifically, is that the system is not arbitrary, and it's not, as illustrated by the overturned convictions based on newfound evidence you just mentioned. If you need help understanding what the word "arbitrary" means, I did post a dictionary definition earlier. If you need a shovel to dig yourself a deeper hole, try Home Depot, or in your case, B&Q.



As it's impossible to identify and overcome all jury bias, there will be cases where the decision is arbitrary. If it weren't then appeals/retrials would not come to another decision.

The idea of innocent until proven is guilty is an ideal that isn't met in practice, some trials end up as a popularity contest.

If the jurors can ignore testimony and evidence on a whim then the system is still arbitrary.

But yeah, keep digging. How does it feel to not understand the point when it's right there in your face?

And even if you pick the perfect jury, then human nature slips in.

https://voxeu.org/article/path-dependency-jury-decision-making

_Simple tabulations indicate that a defendant had a 10 percentage point higher chance of being convicted if their case followed a defendant who was convicted (69% conviction rate) versus one who was acquitted (59% conviction rate).


Based on that, a more formal regression analysis finds that the raw positive autocorrelation in the data is, in fact, causal in nature. This analysis studies within-jury decisions, and controls for all observable case characteristics (including more than 30 offence categories). A previous guilty verdict significantly increases the chance of a subsequent guilty verdict by between 6.7% and 14.1%. This positive autocorrelation is robust to multiple estimation strategies, independent of the extent of juror experience, and driven by the most recent cases as well as pairs of similar cases._


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 26, 2021)

smf said:


> As it's impossible to identify and overcome all jury bias, there will be cases where the decision is arbitrary. If it weren't then appeals/retrials would not come to another decision.
> 
> The idea of innocent until proven is guilty is an ideal that isn't met in practice, some trials end up as a popularity contest.
> 
> ...


It's still not an arbitrary system, rather it's human nature that prevents a jury from making a perfectly unbiased judgement. All systems are subject to occasional anomalous behaviours or outcomes - that doesn't make them arbitrary. I'm not going to waste any more time on this, it has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 26, 2021)

I got nr2 yesterday. Today I feel like a wreck... someone please take my joints


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 26, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The tax cuts benefitted every single level of the income ladder
> Serving in the military is not a right
> Boo-hoo
> You'll just have to figure that one out yourself, this is not the subject of this thread


1) This has been discussed to death and you are right, this is not the subject of this thread.
2) Rather you think it is a right or not, it still shows once again that they discriminate against this group.
3) Pollution is disrupting people's liberty at a large scale.



Foxi4 said:


> From internal and external threats, not from the consequences of people's own decisions in regards to their own health.


This virus is a threat, their decision to not take precautions doesn't just effect themselves.



Foxi4 said:


> From internal and external threats, not from the consequences of people's own decisions in regards to their own health. I could protect you pretty well too - I can lock you up in a plexiglass cube, I guarantee that you will never fall ill, get assaulted or otherwise harmed. The cost is just your rights - great, based on your train of thought.


I could give you full liberty too. Let's just throw out all government rules. In fact, let's throw all the rules out. I'm sure that wouldn't cause complete chaos and death, but maybe that's worth it, based on your train of thought.

I can exaggerate too.



Foxi4 said:


> Requiring someone to wear a specific kind of garment does not infringe on their right to bodily integrity, does not force them to undergo a medical procedure against their consent (in violation of the 4th amendment which guarantees a citizen is "secure in their person" which extends beyond seizures and the 5th + 14th amendments which clearly state that no person can be deprived of their life, *liberty* or property without due process, these three being the basis for treatment refusal in the U.S.) and causes them no potential harm. Vaccines *can* cause harm, albeit unintentionally - the risk is infinitesimally small, vaccine injury is exceedingly rare, but all you can hope for is informed consent. There are pre-existing expectations in regards to dress code, there are no such expectations in regards to medical history, which is an entirely private matter.


I see. You have nuance when it comes to liberty, but when people were doing the same for what businesses shouldn't or should be able to do, you claim that they were contradicting themselves. 



Foxi4 said:


> causes them no potential harm.


Not seeing this anywhere. Not to mention, this is so vague, the government wouldn't be able to protect anyone unless it was 100% safe. Pre-existing expectations like Jacobson v. Massachusetts and kids going to school?


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 26, 2021)

The ease with which you guys are getting trolled on low tier bait is remarkable. Perhaps the section would've been much cleaner if you didn't respond to trolls and reported their posts instead. Last page detonated. If someone's breaking the rules of the board, it's in your best interest not to play their game - they'll beat you, they have more practice.



KingVamp said:


> 1) This has been discussed to death and you are right, this is not the subject of this thread.


Yes, I am.


> 2) Rather you think it is a right or not, it still shows once again that they discriminate against this group.


The military is under no obligation to hire anyone and is entitled to have specific standards in regards to servicemen and servicewomen. It's one of the only organisations in the country which *can* discriminate on the basis of physical capabilities, and they set the bar of what is and is not acceptable.


> 3) Pollution is disrupting people's liberty at a large scale.


The environment is not your property.


> This virus is a threat, their decision to not take precautions doesn't just effect themselves.


This factor only matters when there are externalities. The existence of a readily available vaccine nullifies said externalities - people who are worried about the virus can and should get vaccinated, which is well-within their agency. Those who like to live dangerously don't have to do that, often at their own peril.


> I could give you full liberty too. Let's just throw out all government rules. In fact, let's throw all the rules out. I'm sure that wouldn't cause complete chaos and death, but maybe that's worth it, based on your train of thought.


Threatening me with a good time will not be effective.


> I can exaggerate too.


I noticed.


> I see. You have nuance when it comes to liberty, but when people were doing the same for what businesses shouldn't or should be able to do, you claim that they were contradicting themselves.


I claimed that because they were contradicting themselves, yes.


> Not seeing this anywhere. Not to mention, this is so vague, the government wouldn't be able to protect anyone unless it was 100% safe. Pre-existing expectations like Jacobson v. Massachusetts and kids going to school?


If you have no means of proving that they do cause harm then they de facto don't until proven otherwise. There are zero people who have died due to wearing a face mask - that's a pretty good track record.


----------



## smf (Aug 26, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> It's still not an arbitrary system, rather it's human nature that prevents a jury from making a perfectly unbiased judgement.



So if you ignore the arbitrariness in the system then it's no longer arbitrary. Got it, perfect sense. Gold star.

Isn't that the same for everything though?

The best thing is you can gloss over the imperfections because if the jury thought the person was guilty then the wider public probably too. Until they are the ones facing the jury of course.

I don't think trying to make something not arbitrary counts, if you don't actually achieve it.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 26, 2021)

smf said:


> So if you ignore the arbitrariness in the system then it's no longer arbitrary. Got it, perfect sense. Gold star.
> 
> Isn't that the same for everything though?


I don't know why you have such a huge hate boner for me, but following me around the politics section and injecting yourself into conversations I'm having with other people completely unprompted isn't very productive - you're just collecting L's each time. I already explained what the word "arbitrary" means, it is not my job to supplement your education. Don't waste my time, if you have nothing to add to the COVID discussion then you have no reason to post here.


----------



## ut2k4master (Aug 26, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I got nr2 yesterday. Today I feel like a wreck... someone please take my joints


i got lucky i guess. i got biontech twice and didnt really have any side effects apart from a very minor pain in the arm for a few hours


----------



## smf (Aug 26, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't know why you have such a huge hate boner for me, but following me around the politics section and injecting yourself into conversations I'm having with other people completely unprompted isn't very productive - you're just collecting L's each time.



My L score is 0, you're getting close to a numeric overflow. We'll have to go to 64 bit.

I don't have a hate boner for you, just your warped attitude to everything. Which is clear when I made a point and then you derailed with your pedantic and incorrect meltdown.

You seem unable to have conversations with people who disagree, you have to derail them and then throw in insults because your points are so weak.

You don't get to decide who takes part in conversations.



Foxi4 said:


> I already explained what the word "arbitrary" means, it is not my job to supplement your education. Don't waste my time, if you have nothing to add to the COVID discussion then you have no reason to post here.



You explained what you thought it meant and because you're arrogant, you thought that would win.

If you think I'm being a dick to you, it's probably because you're being a dick to everyone.

Hopefully you're stop wasting everyone's time and go somewhere else. Or grow up, but I doubt that will happen.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 26, 2021)

smf said:


> My L score is 0, you're getting close to a numeric overflow. We'll have to go to 64 bit.
> 
> I don't have a hate boner for you, just your warped attitude to everything. Which is clear when I made a point and then you derailed with your pedantic and incorrect meltdown.
> 
> ...


You'll have to argue that one with the dictionary, since that's literally where the definition was copied from. Further attempts to derail the thread will be deleted.


----------



## ghjfdtg (Aug 26, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I got nr2 yesterday. Today I feel like a wreck... someone please take my joints


Been there. It will get better in 1-2 days usually. It's well worth it considering the risks from the virus.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 26, 2021)

ghjfdtg said:


> Been there. It will get better in 1-2 days usually. It's well worth it considering the risks from the virus.


For sure! I rather feel shit now than being in hospital for a preventable disease.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 26, 2021)

linuxares said:


> For sure! I rather feel shit now than being in hospital for a preventable disease.


Mild muscle and joint pain is certainly preferable to intubation and, possibly, death.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Substance in Moderna vaccine believed to be metal

It responds to magnets too.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Substance in Moderna vaccine believed to be metal
> 
> It responds to magnets too.


Chances are it's a manufacturing fault similar to glass found in jarred foods, which happens on occasion, if it's even verifiably a real, large-scale problem. If you're referring to the whole "the jab will make spoons stick to your body" conspiracy, that one is straight-up stupid just on the basis of how magnetism works, as explained by Electroboom, my favourite mad scientist.



If your blood was full of magnetised particles capable of strongly attracting large, metal objects through the skin, you would die instantaneously. It's not a thing. Not sure if you are, just figured I may as well address the latest crackpot conspiracy just in case.


----------



## silien3 (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Chances are it's a manufacturing fault similar to glass found in jarred foods, which happens on occasion, if it's even verifiably a real, large-scale problem. If you're referring to the whole "the jab will make spoons stick to your body" conspiracy, that one is straight-up stupid just on the basis of how magnetism works, as explained by Electroboom, my favourite mad scientist.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood was full of magnetised particles capable of strongly attracting large, metal objects through the skin, you would die instantaneously. It's not a thing. Not sure if you are, just figured I may as well address the latest crackpot conspiracy just in case.



when you rub your feet in a certain way on a certain carpet you become magnetic and you will not die however your body generated by the electromagnetism moreover is not the blood which would be magnetic except the metalic stuff so that cancels the so-called death since its the machine that would be magnetic its like when you go to make radio in a radioactive device its risk but we do it anyway in the past some doctor even said after the radio if you attracted object come urgently
well they ignored a lot of stuff with the x-rays and radioactive at that time but seen who said its proves that one does not necessarily die being a magnet

moreover who says that its magnetism which would attract and nothing else its invalid all in this case here is the hypotesis of certain doctor invalidate at the end by me must remain logical anyway a hypothesis as to the fact that objects can stick to the arm afterwards the vaccine: a phenomenon of adhesion caused by an inflammatory reaction due to the vaccination temporarily modifying the structure of the skin by an excess of sebum or liquid.

invalidate: its would not be limited to the metal thing, even plastic would stick with their hypothesis must remain logical even when we lie

Edit: I do not believe in all that but the prohibition of most general practitioners to do the vaccine and covid test at least where I live does not encourage much confidence I specify that all other vaccines before the covid all general practitioners have it right and obligation to offer them and make them
so the fact that this vaccine is different should already make people ask questions


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2021)

silien3 said:


> invalidate: its would not be limited to the metal thing, even plastic would stick with their hypothesis must remain logical even when we lie


Uhh yeah...you can definitely get plastic stuff to stick to skin temporarily, and even for a long time if it's something as light as a plastic spoon.  I'm sure I wasn't the only kid to fool around with random objects like that, lol.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Chances are it's a manufacturing fault similar to glass found in jarred foods, which happens on occasion, if it's even verifiably a real, large-scale problem. If you're referring to the whole "the jab will make spoons stick to your body" conspiracy, that one is straight-up stupid just on the basis of how magnetism works, as explained by Electroboom, my favourite mad scientist.
> 
> 
> 
> If your blood was full of magnetised particles capable of strongly attracting large, metal objects through the skin, you would die instantaneously. It's not a thing. Not sure if you are, just figured I may as well address the latest crackpot conspiracy just in case.




The focus was on the news of a suspicious batch.  The "it's magnetic" was a tongue-in-cheek reference to what you are talking about.  Why beat a dead horse?  Try Ivermectin.

The fact that it is a widely circulated and unresolved issue is the news; not what you are talking about.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

silien3 said:


> when you rub your feet in a certain way on a certain carpet you become magnetic and you will not die however your body generated by the electromagnetism moreover is not the blood which would be magnetic except the metalic stuff so that cancels the so-called death since its the machine that would be magnetic its like when you go to make radio in a radioactive device its risk but we do it anyway in the past some doctor even said after the radio if you attracted object come urgently
> well they ignored a lot of stuff with the x-rays and radioactive at that time but seen who said its proves that one does not necessarily die being a magnet
> 
> moreover who says that its magnetism which would attract and nothing else its invalid all in this case here is the hypotesis of certain doctor invalidate at the end by me must remain logical anyway a hypothesis as to the fact that objects can stick to the arm afterwards the vaccine: a phenomenon of adhesion caused by an inflammatory reaction due to the vaccination temporarily modifying the structure of the skin by an excess of sebum or liquid.
> ...





Xzi said:


> Uhh yeah...you can definitely get plastic stuff to stick to skin temporarily, and even for a long time if it's something as light as a plastic spoon.  I'm sure I wasn't the only kid to fool around with random objects like that, lol.


Why are we talking about this like it's a real thing? Static electricity and magnetic particles suspended in blood are two different things altogether. If your blood was full of tiny, strongly magnetic particles, they would clump together and kill you instantly, there is zero doubt that this is the case. In fact, it happens all the time. The worry when a child swallows a bunch of magnets is not "magnet poisoning", the worry is that they will stick together and tear the kid's guts apart. You're not generating a "magnetic field" when you wear a sweater, you generate an electrostatic charge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatics

Not quite the same thing as ferrous magnets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet


tabzer said:


> The focus was on the news of a suspicious batch.  The "it's magnetic" was a tongue-in-cheek reference to what you are talking about.  Why beat a dead horse?  Try Ivermectin.
> 
> The fact that it is a widely circulated and unresolved issue is the news; not what you are talking about.


Better yet, go to an actual doctor.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Better yet, go to an actual doctor.



A doctor is going to bring the horse back from the dead?  Or is going to the doctor going to expedite a resolution for a widespread pharmaceutical blunder?


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> A doctor is going to bring the horse back from the dead?  Or is going to the doctor going to expedite a resolution for a widespread pharmaceutical blunder?


You shouldn't be using anti-parasitic drugs for a viral infection, or to build immunity. That is not their intended use.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Why are we talking about this like it's a real thing?


I wasn't, if anything my statement was intended to disprove any notion of human magnetism.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

Xzi said:


> I wasn't, if anything my statement was intended to disprove any notion of human magnetism.


Thank the Lord. I feel slightly more attracted to you now.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Thank the Lord. I feel slightly more attracted to you now.


Rofl.  Yeah I thought the "plastic objects" part would've made that clear.  Stuff sticks to human skin because we're sticky (oils, sweat).  Especially when we haven't showered in a while.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> You shouldn't be using anti-parasitic drugs for a viral infection, or to build immunity. That is not their intended use.



Seems you are insisting that we stay off the sensitive topic of a medical industry blunder that could affect over a million people by a single mistake.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Rofl.  Yeah I thought the "plastic objects" part would've made that clear.  Stuff sticks to human skin because we're sticky (oils, sweat).  Especially when we haven't showered in a while.


These kinds of things just annoy me because (as you know) I'm a bit of an engi-nerd myself and to me it's something you can "dead reckon" even without a science degree. Gee willikers, what would happen if I put a bunch of strong magnets inside my body? Well, if I put some magnetic ball bearings in a bag, they become one huge clump. Gosh, I think I'd die. Not hard, at all.


----------



## silien3 (Aug 27, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Uhh yeah...you can definitely get plastic stuff to stick to skin temporarily, and even for a long time if it's something as light as a plastic spoon.  I'm sure I wasn't the only kid to fool around with random objects like that, lol.


it also works with balloons 


Foxi4 said:


> Why are we talking about this like it's a real thing? Static electricity and magnetic particles suspended in blood are two different things altogether. If your blood was full of tiny magnetic particles, they would clump together and kill you instantly, there is zero doubt that this is the case. You're not generating a "magnetic field" when you wear a sweater, you generate an electrostatic charge.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatics
> 
> Not quite the same thing as ferrous magnets.
> ...


yes the magnetism and the static electricity are 2 different thing if the machine uses the static electricity to attract its discredited magnetism and the death well that would not be limited to the metal but one never knows thus even if I do not believe it too much its stay in the possible this way or if the researcher we find something to stabilize the magnetism or if a new thing that attracts that we still ignore everything possible also even if the chances are slim its remains in the possible must be open minded


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Seems you are insisting that we stay off the sensitive topic of a medical industry blunder that could affect over a million people by a single mistake.


GBAtemp is not a self-medication board. Side effects of Ivermectin misuse include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hypotension, allergic reactions, dizziness, ataxia, *seizures*, *coma* and *death*. You absolutely should not take any medicine without consulting with a medical doctor. If you do, you are on your own. I would appreciate it if you kept those suggestions to yourself since you could accidentally *kill someone* dumb enough to listen.


silien3 said:


> yes the magnetism and the static electricity are 2 different thing if the machine uses the static electricity to attract its discredited magnetism and the death well that would not be limited to the metal but one never knows thus even if I do not believe it too much its stay in the possible this way or if the researcher we find something to stabilize the magnetism or if a new thing that attracts that we still ignore everything possible also even if the chances are slim its remains in the possible must be open minded


No, it doesn't "remain possible". We know exactly why it works - because the flowing electric charge temporarily polarises the two surfaces, making them attract each other despite not being magnetic otherwise. This phenomenon immediately stops once the charge is gone - it is not permanent and it entirely relies on energy being injected into the system.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> GBAtemp is not a self-medication board. Side effects of Ivermectin misuse include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hypotension, allergic reactions, dizziness, ataxia, *seizures*, *coma* and *death*. You absolutely should not take any medicine without consulting with a medical doctor. If you do, you are on your own. I would appreciate it if you kept those suggestions to yourself since you could accidentally *kill someone* dumb enough to listen.



So you are a medical board?

I'm not suggesting taking ivermectin.  The closest thing I said was using it on a dead horse, as opposed to beating it.

You aren't addressing the actual subject at hand.  You are throwing out red herrings.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2021)

Half of all Regeneron treatment shipments are going to just four states with low vaccination rates.


----------



## silien3 (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> No, it doesn't "remain possible". We know exactly why it works - because the flowing electric charge temporarily polarises the two surfaces, making them attract each other despite not being magnetic otherwise. This phenomenon immediately stops once the charge is gone - it is not permanent and it entirely relies on energy being injected into the system.


in our time knowing how something works does not make it impossible to modify its functioning allowing two smiles of the same sex to have babies from which certain babies have survived is the ultimate proof of this, normally the birth of a man a woman of chinese researchers have to modify this reality even if it is not yet reliable, females gave life to babies smiles in good health yes very few survived but proves that its possible not very ethical but it shows that the modification of the functioning of the magnetism by researchers remains possible or the creation of variant

research advances sometimes in good or bad the nuclear is there to prove also


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'm not suggesting taking ivermectin.  The closest thing I said was using it on a dead horse, as opposed to beating it.
> 
> You aren't addressing the actual subject at hand.  You are throwing out red herrings.


That's not the impression I got from reading it, but then again, it is 6AM, so if that's your explanation then fair. I already addressed the matter - it sounds like a manufacturing fault, if it's real.


silien3 said:


> in our time knowing how something works does not make it impossible to modify its functioning allowing two smiles of the same sex to have babies from which certain babies have survived is the ultimate proof of this, normally the birth of a man a woman of chinese researchers have to modify this reality even if it is not yet reliable, *females gave life to babies smiles in good health* yes very few survived but proves that its possible not very ethical but it shows that the modification of the functioning of the magnetism by researchers remains possible or the creation of variant research advances


Females tend to give birth to babies without much assistance. Jokes about the typo aside, it's not beyond the realm of possibility to fertilise an egg with otherwise unintended genetic material, it's how cloning works. It *is* impossible to create a constant electrostatic charge that doesn't require additional energy input because you cannot create energy out of thin air - the laws of thermodynamics are pretty clear on that one.

Tl;dr you cannot "stabilise" an electroststically charged non-magnetic material because its "magnetism" is caused by the flow of energy from one surface to the other which polarises them. The "sticking" is caused by you leaking energy from the system - if that flow is no longer present, the material will cease to behave like that. This is why electromagnets *require* a supply of energy, otherwise they do not function. An "infinitely charged" would require an infinite amount of energy.


----------



## silien3 (Aug 27, 2021)

not at first the cloning does not work also it remains a male spermatozoid and a female ovum which gives life to a clone the dna has nothing to do with this obligation that we mammals to have one and the other here 2 ovum and 2 spermatozoid can to fertilize oneself of course its not yet its but seen that something not at all natural and normally impossible to be able to be is the proof of it moreover an energy transfer is possible the minerals to ingest or the blood itself and the creation of energy of the vacuum its a black hole therefore has already been shown to exist everything is possible with our current technology even if its dangerous not ethical, full of error or unhealthy with what is created or modified in our time remains the perfect proof

I add that the magnets that people buy and stick on the fridge do not transfer energy as you say it attracts or moves away more compared to the first Tesla magnet that was said to be impossible to make small its would defy the law of physics has changed a lot and therefore evolves its become small it comes down to what I said it can be modified or evolve or have variants

reject the history of science if you will but a lot of things have been changed since the old ones and it was supposed to be impossible for them to have some thing or to change something else


I'm not saying it's been done I'm just saying possible


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

silien3 said:


> not at first the cloning does not work also it remains a male spermatozoid and a female ovum which gives life to a clone the dna has nothing to do with this obligation that we mammals to have one and the other here 2 ovum and 2 spermatozoid can to fertilize oneself of course its not yet its but seen that something not at all natural and normally impossible to be able to be is the proof of it moreover an energy transfer is possible the minerals to ingest or the blood itself and the creation of energy of the vacuum its a black hole therefore has already been shown to exist everything is possible with our current technology even if its dangerous not ethical, full of error or unhealthy with what is created or modified in our time remains the perfect proof
> 
> *I add that the magnets that people buy and stick on the fridge do not transfer energy as you say it attracts or moves* away more compared to the first Tesla magnet that was said to be impossible to make small its would defy the law of physics has changed a lot and therefore evolves its become small it comes down to what I said it can be modified or evolve or have variants
> 
> reject the history of science if you will but a lot of things have been changed since the old ones and it was supposed to be impossible for them to have some thing or to change something else


What you're describing is a ferrous magnet. That has nothing to do with electromagnetism. Electrostatically charged items display properties of electromagnetism because of difference in potential - one surface is charged positively, one is charged negatively, and as such they temporarily attract because all things in nature want to balance out their potential. This is also why electrons flow directionally in a circuit, from a point of high potential to a point with low potential, until equilibrium is reached. An electromagnet has to have an energy supply, otherwise the two surfaces will reach equilibrium in potential and no longer attract. You're arguing with physics, but that's all an aside, we should get back to the vaccines before we get too far ahead of ourselves.


----------



## silien3 (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> What you're describing is a ferrous magnet. That has nothing to do with electromagnetism. Electrostatically charged items display properties of electromagnetism because of difference in potential - one surface is charged positively, one is charged negatively, and as such they temporarily attract because all things in nature want to balance out their potential. This is also why electrons flow directionally in a circuit, from a point of high potential to a point with low potential, until equilibrium is reached. An electromagnet has to have an energy supply, otherwise the two surfaces will reach equilibrium in potential and no longer attract. You're arguing with physics, but that's all an aside, we should get back to the vaccine.


the electromagnet and the ferrous magnet are different variants of course but both remain magnets that remain in what I said in the main line create variants finally forget about it
who will live will see as they say


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

silien3 said:


> the electromagnet and the ferrous magnet are different variants of course but both remain magnets that remain in what I said in the main line create variants finally forget about it
> who will live will see as they say


In all fairness, the only reason why we're talking about magnets at all is the latest crazy vaccine conspiracy. Why is it always magnets? Effing magnets, how do they work?


----------



## silien3 (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> In all fairness, the only reason why we're talking about magnets at all is the latest crazy vaccine conspiracy. Why is it always magnets? Effing magnets, how do they work?


what I explain it works with everything so no need to focus on the magnet

but the conspirator could end up being right on something that's why we have to investigate and verify even if it seems crazy or we will have a new Hitler who would take power

we can also be in peace and love mode


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

silien3 said:


> what I explain it works with everything so no need to focus on the magnet
> 
> but the conspirator could end up being right on something that's why we have to investigate and verify even if it seems crazy or we will have a new Hitler who would take power
> 
> we can also be in peace and love mode


I'm not a 100% sure what you mean, there's a bit of a language barrier here, but I do know that people who are correct accidentally don't get partial credit. You need to show your work, otherwise they're just throwing things at a wall and eventually something they imagined stuck.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 27, 2021)

Uhm yeah guys... you actually got iron inside your blood. So what's the big deal?
If Moderna now contained metal, they probably recalled it right?

I love the stupid magnetic theory. You would freaking explode if you went pass a stronger magnet if so.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> That's not the impression I got from reading it, but then again, it is 6AM, so if that's your explanation then fair. I already addressed the matter - it sounds like a manufacturing fault, if it's real.



I'm pretty irreverent to the stakes being raised on the professional front.  AFAIK NHK isn't lying.  NHK is going to begrudgingly report on such issues out of social obligation and then bury it under headlines promoting the vaccine.  Japanese media is pretty much all one voice.  Many vaccine appointments were cancelled, and this is the news that came out of it.  Of course it wasn't all only NHK.  NHK offers the news in English.



linuxares said:


> If Moderna now contained metal, they probably recalled it right?



It did contain metal and the Japanese government recalled it.  AFAIK Moderna hasn't commented on the subject.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It did contain metal and the Japanese government recalled it.  AFAIK Moderna hasn't commented on the subject.


So problem solved. Shit happens sometimes during mass production after all.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> In all fairness, the only reason why we're talking about magnets at all is the latest crazy vaccine conspiracy.



If you are paying attention to the opposing side, the argument is that there is some graphene synthetic.  (Graphene Oxide?).  The latest crazy vaccine conspiracies focus on the pharmaceutical companies having done criminal acts in the past as the basis for not trusting them, and d-dimer tests to indicate the shots are instigating micro-bloodclots.  Tiktok magnetism is so old now, which is why the dead horse comment.



linuxares said:


> So problem solved.



Seems natural people would desire an explanation and a path to prevent future cases of the issue that could potentially affect millions of lives.  But if you are okay with the outcome, then I guess we should be all okay.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Seems natural people would desire an explanation and a path to prevent future cases of the issue that could potentially affect millions of lives.  But if you are okay with the outcome, then I guess we should be all okay.


And you don't think Moderna are investigating what happened? They are most likely pissing themselves since it's super important to fix the issue.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

linuxares said:


> And you don't think Moderna are investigating what happened? They are most likely pissing themselves since it's super important to fix the issue.



I think so.  But for the meantime people are waiting as tension builds.  The implications of a fuck up making it past QC and getting into millions of doses seems to be more dystopian than the actual virus.

Nothing is guaranteed in life.  Which is why you sign a waiver.


----------



## Astromyxin (Aug 27, 2021)

You guys are on the wrong track. The curious ingredient of these new vaccines is the aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles that they say assist in getting the vaccine past the blood/brain barrier. This sounds all well and good, however, electromagnetic radiation(wifi, cell, radio, etc) effects the blood/brain barrier and what goes past it, and as it happens, we're basically bathed in electromagnetic radiation wherever we go, most of us carry a transmitter of it in our pockets, and certainly all of us have several transmitters of electromagnetic radiation at our homes. Essentially, using specific frequencies/amplitudes/shapes of electromagnetic radiation, the aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles that are now in your brain can be either excited or relaxed and this can be used to at the very least have a mild effect on a person's mood/temperament(without them being aware that this is occurring) and at the most influence a person's thought and behavior(again, without them being aware that this is occurring) or possibly even alter a person's memory by dissolving/reforming or rearranging a person's existing neural net pathways or by creating brand new ones that are frequency/amplitude/shape specific. 

I can't post links, but I have some legit data that backs this claim up.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I think so.  But for the meantime people are waiting as tension builds.  The implications of a fuck up making it past QC and getting into millions of doses seems to be more dystopian than the actual virus.
> 
> Nothing is guaranteed in life.  Which is why you sign a waiver.


lol, there are other brands than just Moderna. Take a chill pill.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

linuxares said:


> lol, there are other brands than just Moderna. Take a chill pill.



You are reading me wrong if you think I need a chill pill.

Seems I was wrong about the latest vaccine conspiracy.


----------



## silien3 (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not a 100% sure what you mean, there's a bit of a language barrier here, but I do know that people who are wrong accidentally don't get partial credit.


what I mean is that the conspiracy exists so must be investigated even if it seems exaggerated or trivial to be sure not to end up like China or North Korea


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Conspiracies exist.  They (the conspirators) don't want *it be known.  So it's natural that you would need theorists to help track them.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Uhm yeah guys... you actually got iron inside your blood. So what's the big deal?
> If Moderna now contained metal, they probably recalled it right?
> 
> I love the stupid magnetic theory. You would freaking explode if you went pass a stronger magnet if so.


Now that you mention iron in blood, it's worth mentioning that it is not metallic iron, it's one of the components of hemoglobin which is either weakly repelled or weakly attracted by magnets, depending on whether it's oxygenated or not. There's also only about 2g of it, so not much to talk about. Our blood mixture overall is considered diamagnetic - most of our blood is water, which is diamagnetic, so if anything, we're subtly repelled by magnets. The magnet would have to be ridiculously strong to see any measurable effect, of course, but still. Article below.

https://nerdist.com/article/magnet-blood-magneto-science-experiment-video/


Astromyxin said:


> You guys are on the wrong track. The curious ingredient of these new vaccines is the aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles that they say assist in getting the vaccine past the blood/brain barrier. This sounds all well and good, however, electromagnetic radiation(wifi, cell, radio, etc) effects the blood/brain barrier and what goes past it, and as it happens, we're basically bathed in electromagnetic radiation wherever we go, most of us carry a transmitter of it in our pockets, and certainly all of us have several transmitters of electromagnetic radiation at our homes. Essentially, using specific frequencies/amplitudes/shapes of electromagnetic radiation, the aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles that are now in your brain can be either excited or relaxed and this can be used to at the very least have a mild effect on a person's mood/temperament(without them being aware that this is occurring) and at the most influence a person's thought and behavior(again, without them being aware that this is occurring) or possibly even alter a person's memory by dissolving/reforming or rearranging a person's existing neural net pathways or by creating brand new ones that are frequency/amplitude/shape specific.
> 
> I can't post links, but I have some legit data that backs this claim up.


A normal, healthy individual has a total of 30-50mg of various aluminium compounds in their body, mostly in the skeleton (about half of the total, 5-10mg/kg) and the lungs (25%, increases with age). Whatever tiny amount you're getting in a vaccine is infinitesimally small compared to what you ingest from foods, water or the environment. The antiperspirant you used this morning (hopefully) is full of aluminium particulate.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> A normal, healthy individual has a total of 30-50mg of various aluminium compounds in their body, mostly in the skeleton (about half of the total, 5-10mg/kg) and the lungs (25%, increases with age). Whatever tiny amount you're getting in a vaccine is infinitesimally small compared to what you ingest from foods, water or the environment.



AKA the straw that breaks the camel's back.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> AKA the straw that breaks the camel's back.


Maybe if you took the vaccine 10,000 times.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Maybe if you took the vaccine 10,000 times.



I do not know the threshold for 5g activation.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 27, 2021)

Astromyxin said:


> You guys are on the wrong track. The curious ingredient of these new vaccines is the aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles that they say assist in getting the vaccine past the blood/brain barrier. This sounds all well and good, however, electromagnetic radiation(wifi, cell, radio, etc) effects the blood/brain barrier and what goes past it, and as it happens, we're basically bathed in electromagnetic radiation wherever we go, most of us carry a transmitter of it in our pockets, and certainly all of us have several transmitters of electromagnetic radiation at our homes. Essentially, using specific frequencies/amplitudes/shapes of electromagnetic radiation, the aluminum hydroxide nanoparticles that are now in your brain can be either excited or relaxed and this can be used to at the very least have a mild effect on a person's mood/temperament(without them being aware that this is occurring) and at the most influence a person's thought and behavior(again, without them being aware that this is occurring) or possibly even alter a person's memory by dissolving/reforming or rearranging a person's existing neural net pathways or by creating brand new ones that are frequency/amplitude/shape specific.
> 
> I can't post links, but I have some legit data that backs this claim up.


Please look up the difference between ionising and non-ionising radiation.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I do not know the threshold for 5g activation.


At this point I don't know if you're trolling or if you just buy every conspiracy that floats past you in the aether of the Internet. If I recall correctly, @Lacius is a biologist (a marine biologist? My memory is hazy, all I remember is starfish) so he will be able to speak with some authority on the subject. I majored Biology in high school, but never pursued a career in an industry that would require further qualifications. What I do know is that there's plenty of aluminium in you already, you're wearing it on your skin every single day (unless you're one of those smelly people who don't use antiperspirant), you eat it, you drink it, you even breathe it if you're ever in a workshop or on a construction site, so if that makes you a "transmitter" then you already are one regardless. Not that the 5G conspiracy holds water at all (it doesn't, video below), but let's pretend it does just for fun.



Tl;dw 5G radiation can't harm you.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> At this point I don't know if you're trolling or if you just buy every conspiracy that floats past you in the aether of the Internet. If I recall correctly, @Lacius is a biologist (a marine biologist? My memory is hazy, all I remember is starfish) so he will be able to speak with some authority on the subject. I majored Biology in high school, but never pursued a career in an industry that would require further qualifications. What I do know is that there's plenty of aluminium in you already, you're wearing it on your skin every single day (unless you're one of those smelly people who don't use antiperspirant), you eat it, you drink it, you even breathe it if you're ever in a workshop or a construction site, so if that makes you a "transmitter" then you already are one regardless. Not that the 5G conspiracy holds water at all (it doesn't, video below), but let's pretend it does just for fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Tl;dw 5G radiation can't harm you.





All I read is that Lacius is a starfish and 5g radiation.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> All I read is that Lacius is a starfish and 5g radiation.


I can neither confirm nor deny that @Lacius is an invertebrate, I have only ever seen him as a Toon Link, so I have no reason to believe he looks any different than that. I can however confirm that your phone will not cook your brain, although some studies show a very, very mildly elevated risk of cancer. It's not nearly enough to establish a link since we're literally surrounded by background radiation all the time, both naturally-occurring and artificial.


----------



## linuxares (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Tl;dw 5G radiation can't harm you.


Don't tell them about the background radiation from space that is stronger and hit you all the time

EDIT: And of course Fox4 just posted before this one at the sametime about the same subject....


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Don't tell them about the background radiation from space that is stronger and hit you all the time


You're talking with a science ninja over here.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I can neither confirm nor deny that @Lacius is an invertebrate, I have only ever seen him as a Toon Link, so I have no reason to believe he looks any different than that. I can however confirm that your phone will not cook your brain, although some studies show a very, very mildly elevated risk of cancer. It's not nearly enough to establish a link since we're literally surrounded by background radiation all the time, both naturally-occurring and artificial.




Cellphones cause cancer?

:::we need more gs:::

Gs cause cancer?

:::we need more phone:::

Of course Lacius is a toon link.  The time to believe otherwise is when evidence exists of such.  But should we give up on investigating claims that he's a starfish now that the question was asked?


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Cellphones cause cancer?
> 
> :::we need more gs:::
> 
> ...


Increasing the frequency is actually safer rather than more damaging - I've supplied you with a video that adequately explains it all.

As for the starfish conspiracy, we have to dig deeper, ideally ask the source. He will no doubt show up eventually, then we can test the theory.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Increasing the frequency is actually safer rather than more damaging - I've supplied you with a video that adequately explains it all.
> 
> As for the starfish conspiracy, we have to dig deeper, ideally ask the source. He will no doubt show up eventually, then we can test the theory.



More Gs = more nuance.  I love nuance more than most things, so I am disenfranchised by your definition of "damaging".

When's the last time you asked a starfish and got an honest response?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 27, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> At this point I don't know if you're trolling or if you just buy every conspiracy that floats past you in the aether of the Internet. If I recall correctly, @Lacius is a biologist (a marine biologist? My memory is hazy, all I remember is starfish) so he will be able to speak with some authority on the subject. I majored Biology in high school, but never pursued a career in an industry that would require further qualifications. What I do know is that there's plenty of aluminium in you already, you're wearing it on your skin every single day (unless you're one of those smelly people who don't use antiperspirant), you eat it, you drink it, you even breathe it if you're ever in a workshop or on a construction site, so if that makes you a "transmitter" then you already are one regardless. Not that the 5G conspiracy holds water at all (it doesn't, video below), but let's pretend it does just for fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Tl;dw 5G radiation can't harm you.



I am a biology teacher, not a marine biologist.



Foxi4 said:


> Increasing the frequency is actually safer rather than more damaging - I've supplied you with a video that adequately explains it all.
> 
> As for the starfish conspiracy, we have to dig deeper, ideally ask the source. He will no doubt show up eventually, then we can test the theory.


I had to go back to the aquarium back to work this week, so I haven't been on as much, but I'll interject to dispel the rumor. I am not a starfish, but since so many people are talking about me, I'm going to have to conclude that I am a star.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I am a biology teacher, not a marine biologist.
> 
> I had to go back to the aquarium back to work this week, so I haven't been on as much, but I'll interject to dispel the rumor. I am not a starfish, but since so many people are talking about me, I'm going to have to conclude that I am a star.


Well yes, of course you are, I meant your specialisation. I vaguely remember you dealing with that sort of stuff a few years back - getting to know your kind starfish a bit better.


----------



## KingVamp (Aug 27, 2021)

This thread is starting to get a bit fishy.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> This thread is starting to get a bit fishy.


This entire section smells like a dodgy fish market, to be fair.


----------



## console (Aug 28, 2021)

My mom warned me about vaccines have dangerous something like side effect. I and my parents are against vaccines. No for me and my family period. Our governments and federal are pure evil like satanic want to destroy our and people lives if took vaccines that have bad bots = viruses in there to kill us and people without know.

If I and my family get hit by virus then force to buy horse paste to destroy Covid-19 in few days then back to normal very faster than vaccines take weeks or months to cure. Vaccines are waste our and people time and money to drive on the road to stores, hospital, etc.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

console said:


> My mom warned me about vaccines have dangerous something like side effect. I and my parents are against vaccines. No for me and my family period. Our governments and federal are pure evil like satanic want to destroy our and people lives if took vaccines that have bad bots = viruses in there to kill us and people without know.
> 
> If I and my family get hit by virus then force to buy horse paste to destroy Covid-19 in few days then back to normal very faster than vaccines take weeks or months to cure. Vaccines are waste our and people time and money to drive on the road to stores, hospital, etc.
> 
> ...


This "legal" document would have no effect. Even if there was a vaccine mandate, it wouldn't be in violation of the Nuremberg Code because the vaccines are not experimental. All of the ones in circulation either have full FDA approval or Emergency approval. The Nuremberg Code concerns medical research, the vaccines are not being actively researched, they're a commercial product on the market. With that being said, "government agents" would probably hightail it if they saw this document, but for a completely different reason - they'd assume there is something wrong with you. You always have the option to just say no, but you chose to do it in the weirdest, craziest way possible.

Edit: Okay, I see that you switched it around a bit now.  Fair enough. It's hard to distinguish a good troll from a bad take these days, there is no difference anymore.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2021)

Young healthy people do not need the vaccine period. Coronavirus has quickly morphed into "only the sick and elderly die from it" to "everyone is going to die if you don't get the vaccine" with society pressuring you into doing it, and that is already now changing into mandates. It's supposed to take several years to approve any vaccine yet here we are with an approved one by the FDA. I'm not sure why the youth went from rebelling against the Government for decades to now worshipping it.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

NoSomeBody said:


> Young healthy people do not need the vaccine period. Coronavirus has quickly morphed into "only the sick and elderly die from it" to "everyone is going to die if you don't get the vaccine" with society pressuring you into doing it, and that is already now changing into mandates. It's supposed to take several years to approve any vaccine yet here we are with an approved one by the FDA. I'm not sure why the youth went from rebelling against the Government for decades to now worshipping it.


There's a good explanation for that. Because of the emergency approval for use which was applied pretty much internationally, you're not dealing with a test cohort of a couple thousand, you're dealing with a test cohort of millions upon millions of patients. That (obviously) accelerates the timeline - you have many orders of magnitude more cases to examine whether it was effective or not. The general recommendation is for young people to take it because it prevents spread to the vulnerable and further mutations of the virus (since if it encounters natural immunity, it is liable to adapt to it in the next iteration, that's how viruses work), but you are correct that the risk scales with age. Very few young people will suffer serious effects of the disease, but that was never the argument behind vaccinating young people. In the case of people who are around the age of 20 or below it's more of a selfless act on behalf of others.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> There's a good explanation for that. Because of the emergency approval for use which was applied pretty much internationally, you're not dealing with a test cohort of a couple thousand, you're dealing with a test cohort of millions upon millions of patients. That (obviously) accelerates the timeline - you have many orders of magnitude more cases to examine whether it was effective or not. The general recommendation is for young people to take it because it prevents spread to the vulnerable and further mutations of the virus (since if it encounters natural immunity, it is liable to adapt to it in the next iteration, that's how viruses work), but you are correct that the risk scales with age. Very few young people will suffer serious effects of the disease, but that was never the argument in favour of vaccinating young people.



The vaccine is not even a cure of coronavirus and here comes another one from pfizer soon and a booster. If someone wants to think constant new injections that don't do the job they're supposed to do and were rushed to be approved is in their own best interest then by all means inject yourself on a weekly basis if that's what they tell you to do unlike pro-vaxxers who judge me I'm not going to judge anybody but I'm not taking that shit. I just exercise 5 times a week very intensely and eat healthy. I am going to be 40 in November and feeling great. I see my 93 year old grandma in a nursing home yet I social distance from her when I do and I'm required to get tested in the nursing home to see her anyway and must be negative, so I see absolutely no logic in me taking the vaccine.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2021)

I've seen fully vaccinated celebrities such as Melissa Joan Hart blaming the unvaccinated for still getting the coronavirus. (she blamed unmasked children who gave it to her children who gave it to her, sad) That is an obvious logic fail. If the vaccine worked, nothing else would matter you should not get coronavirus. They should be blaming the ones who sold them a bill of goods.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

NoSomeBody said:


> The vaccine is not even a cure of coronavirus and here comes another one from pfizer soon and a booster. If someone wants to think constant new injections that don't do the job they're supposed to do and were rushed to be approved is in their own best interest then by all means inject yourself on a weekly basis if that's what they tell you to do unlike pro-vaxxers who judge me I'm not going to judge anybody but I'm not taking that shit. I just exercise 5 times a week very intensely and eat healthy. I am going to be 40 in November and feeling great. I see my 93 year old grandma in a nursing home yet I social distance from her when I do and I'm required to get tested in the nursing home to see her anyway and must be negative, so I see absolutely no logic in me taking the vaccine.


Oh, I don't care if you take it or not - it's your body and you can do whatever you want with it. All I'm saying is that taking it is a good idea as it improves your odds, reduces the chances of random mutation and protects third-parties, particularly those who cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason. Ultimately the decision is yours - the vaccine is not a force field, it comes with no guarantee of preventing the virus from spreading, it simply boosts your immunity against it so that if you do catch it, you won't fall seriously ill. You can take a flu shot every season and still catch the flu, the difference being that you're unlikely to end up in an ICU over it. Swings and roundabouts, everybody's different.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Oh, I don't care if you take it or not - it's your body and you can do whatever you want with it. All I'm saying is that taking it is a good idea as it improves your odds, reduces the chances of random mutation and protects third-parties, particularly those who cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason. Ultimately the decision is yours - the vaccine is not a force field, it comes with no guarantee of preventing the virus from spreading, it simply boosts your immunity against it so that if you do catch it, you won't fall seriously ill. You can take a flu shot every season and still catch the flu, the difference being that you're unlikely to end up in an ICU over it. Swings and roundabouts, everybody's different.



So putting aside that it protects me which I don't buy but ok I'll play along, I'm supposed to play hero for others by reducing their risks of getting it by taking something that has no long term studies done because it hasn't been around long term. Sorry nope again if they're vaccinated they should be protected from me anyway so they should be good just like it's my choice it's their choice to get it or not. If what you say is true and they get it they should be good to go and it doesn't matter what I do. If someone is in a situation that they cannot be vaccinated why are they risking their lives by being out in society anyway? It's being put on me to protect others but that will always point back to the vaccine not working making the whole cycle pointless. 

People die of the flu but I've never seen society pressuring them to get a flu shot or you need to get it to protect others.


----------



## MiiJack (Aug 28, 2021)

Vaccines are just instructions for your body on how to deal with the potential disease you get, not a cure.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

NoSomeBody said:


> So putting aside that it protects me which I don't buy but ok I'll play along, I'm supposed to play hero for others by reducing their risks of getting it by taking something that has no long term studies done because it hasn't been around long term. Sorry nope again if they're vaccinated they should be protected from me anyway so they should be good just like it's my choice it's their choice to get it or not. If what you say is true and they get it they should be good to go and it doesn't matter what I do. If someone is in a situation that they cannot be vaccinated why are they risking their lives by being out in society anyway? It's being put on me to protect others but that will always point back to the vaccine not working making the whole cycle pointless.
> 
> People die of the flu but I've never seen society pressuring them to get a flu shot or you need to get it to protect others.


Well, we have seen several flu epidemics which caused a global panic, but if we set those aside, influenza kills around 290,000-650,000 people annually. So far, COVID-19 has killed 4.48 million people, and it's only emerged to the scene in late 2019. This is only the number of deaths, even more people have suffered other grievous consequences from the virus - it can cause long-lasting or even permanent damage. The stakes are orders of magnitude higher, so social pressure is obviously going to match that. Again, a young person has very little to worry about as far as their personal health is concerned. Over 80% of COVID-19 deaths on record in the U.S. are 65-and-over, and mortality is fairly high, relatively speaking. Their immune systems are just not in the best of shape, even if they are vaccinated, so it's up to us to ensure that they don't get sick, if we can help it. Again, no pressure - as far as I'm concerned you can do what you want. It's simply prudent to get vaccinated, and global data indicates that the jab is safe. Ultimately this is a question of whether you care to chip in on the effort or if you hold the belief that people at risk should simply get the jab themselves. The latter position is flawed in the sense that the jab is, again, not a force field - it boosts your immune system, it does not grant you complete immunity from the virus, which may or may not be good enough depending on how effective your immune system is. If a patient is advanced in age, the answer to that question is "not very effective", there's a reason why the elderly statistically tend to be sickly. I'd reconsider your decision if I were you, but what you do is none of my business - I can only offer explanations and recommendations, I'm not your dad.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 28, 2021)

MiiJack said:


> Vaccines are just instructions for your body on how to deal with the potential disease you get, not a cure.


I prefer to think of them as a wanted poster so your immune system recognises future threats unless they wear a disguise (mutation)


----------



## tabzer (Aug 28, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I prefer to think of them as a wanted poster so your immune system recognises future threats unless they wear a disguise (mutation)




They end up missing the actual virus that doesn't have the same spike proteins, allowing the procreation of variants.  All because of a haircut.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

tabzer said:


> They end up missing the actual virus that doesn't have the same spike proteins, allowing the procreation of variants.  All because of a haircut.


This is incorrect. The vaccine is still effective against variants of the virus, although its efficacy is reduced due to minor differences in the make-up of the different pathogens. Coronaviruses are coronaviruses, there's only so much variability to speak of. Similarly, a flu vaccine doesn't just protect you against the latest flu du jour, it protects you against a wide variety of strains, with varying degrees of effectiveness.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> This is incorrect. The vaccine is still effective against variants of the virus, although its efficacy is reduced due to minor differences in the make-up of the different pathogens. Coronaviruses are coronaviruses, there's only so much variability to speak of. Similarly, a flu vaccine doesn't just protect you against the latest flu du jour, it protects you against a wide variety of strains, with varying degrees of effectiveness.



AFAIK the vaccine trains the immune system to recognize the spike protein and not the actual virus.  You can say what you are saying, but there isn't content there that suggests any cognization beyond.  Flu vaccines include the whole specimen.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

tabzer said:


> AFAIK the vaccine trains the immune system to recognize the spike protein and not the actual virus.  You can say what you are saying, but there isn't content there that suggests any cognization beyond.  Flu vaccines include the whole specimen.


The spike protein in Delta is already different (by one amino acid) and the vaccine is still effective against it (around 80% last I checked, compared to 96% against the original strain), so there is ample data to support what I'm saying. Claiming that this is not the case is inconsistent with the data we currently have.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The spike protein in Delta is already different (by one amino acid) and the vaccine is still effective against it (around 80% last I checked, compared to 96% of the original strain), so there is ample data to support what I'm saying. Claiming that this is not the case is inconsistent with the data we currently have.



The suggestion that our immune system might be suspicious in constitution is interesting.  I don't feed off of polls though.



Foxi4 said:


> This is incorrect. The vaccine is still effective against variants of the virus,* although its efficacy is reduced due to minor differences in the make-up of the different pathogens*.



So, incorrect, but correct.  I'll take it.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Well, we have seen several flu epidemics which caused a global panic, but if we set those aside, influenza kills around 290,000-650,000 people annually. So far, COVID-19 has killed 4.48 million people, and it's only emerged to the scene in late 2019. This is only the number of deaths, even more people have suffered other grievous consequences from the virus - it can cause long-lasting or even permanent damage. The stakes are orders of magnitude higher, so social pressure is obviously going to match that. Again, a young person has very little to worry about as far as their personal health is concerned. Over 80% of COVID-19 deaths on record in the U.S. are 65-and-over, and mortality is fairly high, relatively speaking. Their immune systems are just not in the best of shape, even if they are vaccinated, so it's up to us to ensure that they don't get sick, if we can help it. Again, no pressure - as far as I'm concerned you can do what you want. It's simply prudent to get vaccinated, and global data indicates that the jab is safe. Ultimately this is a question of whether you care to chip in on the effort or if you hold the belief that people at risk should simply get the jab themselves. The latter position is flawed in the sense that the jab is, again, not a force field - it boosts your immune system, it does not grant you complete immunity from the virus, which may or may not be good enough depending on how effective your immune system is. If a patient is advanced in age, the answer to that question is "not very effective", there's a reason why the elderly statistically tend to be sickly. I'd reconsider your decision if I were you, but what you do is none of my business - I can only offer explanations and recommendations, I'm not your dad.



I would actually tell you to reconsider your decision, but that's not possible once you're vaxxed you cannot get unvaxxed and something happens there's nothing you can do about it, although maybe you should eventually say no when they want you to take vaccine #38 and booster shot #17, but again up to you. I can stay healthy by other natural means which is what more people should do. 78% of people who end up hospitalized from covid are obese. This is a low Vitamin D issue that the vaccine does not solve that's why vaxxed are still ending up in the hospital.


----------



## leon315 (Aug 28, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, we are probably only weeks away from full FDA approval, and the fact that the vaccines are under emergency use authorization has nothing to do with the willful ignorance and stupidity associated with the aforementioned microchip claims, etc.
> 
> Edit: And you also don't seem to know what an ad hominem is.


probably u wouldn't say same thing about Astrazeneca's, just look at many deaths they had those Taiwanense after they've got AZ shots.......


----------



## Lacius (Aug 28, 2021)

NoSomeBody said:


> once you're vaxxed you cannot get unvaxxed and something happens there's nothing you can do about it


If you're hospitalized with COVID-19 because you are unvaccinated, a vaccination cannot help you. There is a much higher and substantiated risk of this happening than the vague and imaginary "something might happen later if you're vaccinated."



NoSomeBody said:


> although maybe you should eventually say no when they want you to take vaccine #38 and booster shot #17


Why? Vaccines are awesome pieces of medical technology that objectively prevent illness and harm. I've probably gotten over twenty flu shots in my life. That isn't a bad thing.



NoSomeBody said:


> I can stay healthy by other natural means



Just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it's automatically better than something "unnatural." That's a naturalistic fallacy.
The best way to protect yourself (and others around you) from COVID-19 is getting vaccinated, not "natural means."
Living a healthy lifestyle is good, but it isn't going to protect you from contracting COVID-19, it isn't going to prevent you from spreading COVID-19 to other people, and even people who live healthy lifestyles can get hospitalized with COVID-19.



NoSomeBody said:


> 78% of people who end up hospitalized from covid are obese.


Last I checked, approximately 99% of people who end up hospitalized from COVID-19 are unvaccinated.



NoSomeBody said:


> that's why vaxxed are still ending up in the hospital.


Vaccinated people, broadly speaking, aren't going to the hospital.



leon315 said:


> probably u wouldn't say same thing about Astrazeneca's, just look at many deaths they had those Taiwanense after they've got AZ shots.......


Like with the J&J vaccine, the AstraZeneca has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. The risk of blood clots is extremely rare, we have mitigations in place to prevent deaths from those blood clots, and the blood clot risks (and others) are far more likely with COVID-19 than with the AstraZeneca vaccine.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2021)

Inventor of Mrna vaccines which is what everyone getting vaccinated is taking regrets taking Moderna in 2020.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 28, 2021)

NoSomeBody said:


> Inventor of Mrna vaccines which is what everyone getting vaccinated is taking regrets taking Moderna in 2020.


Robert Malone has consistently peddled unsubstantiated and debunked misinformation about COVID-19. His opinion is irrelevant.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 28, 2021)

Exactly, having done one or two great things in your life does not stop you from talking out of your ass, and most great scientists that are taken to public view for things other than their original work end up doing just that: speaking out of their ass.


----------



## leon315 (Aug 28, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Like with the J&J vaccine, the AstraZeneca has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. The risk of blood clots is extremely rare, we have mitigations in place to prevent deaths from those blood clots, and the blood clot risks (and others) are far more likely with COVID-19 than with the AstraZeneca vaccine.





> the CECC had reported a total of 653 post-vaccination deaths from 10.25 million vaccine doses administered in Taiwan to date



STILL INCREDIBLY HIGH, those people had survive 2020, those people believed that vaccine was supposed to protect them instead it was the vaccine the cause of their death, SMH btw those are vaccines donated from Japan, also Singapore has banned Astrazeneca vaccine too.

The currently only reliable ones are Pfizer, Moderna and Sinovac, the Chinese ones.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 28, 2021)

653 *post-vaccination* deaths means anyone that died after getting the shot is counted, regardless of the cause of death. Most of them *are not linked to the vaccine*, and you're literally using those numbers wrongly to instigate fear and distrust in others. Please stop.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 28, 2021)

leon315 said:


> STILL INCREDIBLY HIGH, those people had survive 2020, those people believed that vaccine was supposed to protect them instead it was the vaccine the cause of their death, SMH btw those are vaccines donated from Japan, also Singapore has banned Astrazeneca vaccine too.
> 
> The currently only reliable ones are Pfizer, Moderna and Sinovac, the Chinese ones.


Correlation does not equal causation. From the CECC:



> A total of 145 autopsies of the 653 deceased have been completed so far, with 139 indicating no direct link to the COVID-19 vaccine and six cases still undetermined, according to CECC.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 28, 2021)

I'll even play along : in the same amount of time (5 months, since vaccination started there on a general scale on March 22), and using the death rate from 2019 (pre-COVID-19), around 3200 people died in the same timeframe and were not vaccinated (because COVID-19 was not a thing, and neither were its vaccines).
I will conclude that not being vaccinated from COVID-19 is what kills people, and does so more that the vaccins according to your own logic. What are you going to do with that @leon315 ?

Disclaimer: obviously this argument is as meaningless as the original one from @leon315's post is, this is just an example to demonstrate that this logic is completely flawed. You cannot say "X people died after doing something" or "X people died without doing something" and conclude that this something that was done or not done is the cause of death, that's just ludicrous.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2021)

More vaccinated people are dying of the delta variant of covid than unvaccinated people, according to a recent report from Public Health England. The report shows that 489 of 742 people (65.9%) who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive covid test between 1 February 2021 and 2 August 2021, had received at least one dose of the vaccine. 54.1% (402 of 742) had received both doses. This seems like an alarming set of statistics, but with an imperfect vaccine and high vaccination coverage, it is exactly what we would expect.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/2...ated-this-doesnt-mean-the-vaccines-dont-work/

Before someone yells "conspiracy site" this site is still pro-vaxx if you read the post.


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 28, 2021)

It is *not* alarming. Vaccines are *known* to not be 100% effective, and it is *normal* that when a majority of the population is vaccinated, as is the case in England, then the majority of people dying of the disease will also have been vaccinated. Also, compare that number of deaths (total, not just vaccinated) against the number of deaths for any period of the same length before vaccines were a thing, but after the stard of the pandemic. For example, take March-September 2020, or June-December 2020.
The number of people dying now of COVID-19 is *far, far less* than the number of people dying when the majority of people were not vaccinated.

Some people are manipulating numbers by only taking into account the ones that serve their interest, when you should be taking into account all the numbers, like I just did.The link you provided does that as well (and goes into the actual math too)


----------



## leon315 (Aug 28, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> I'll even play along : in the same amount of time (5 months, since vaccination started there on a general scale on March 22), and using the death rate from 2019 (pre-COVID-19), around 3200 people died in the same timeframe and were not vaccinated (because COVID-19 was not a thing, and neither were its vaccines).
> I will conclude that not being vaccinated from COVID-19 is what kills people, and does so more that the vaccins according to your own logic. What are you going to do with that @leon315 ?
> 
> Disclaimer: obviously this argument is as meaningless as the original one from @leon315's post is, this is just an example to demonstrate that this logic is completely flawed. You cannot say "X people died after doing something" or "X people died without doing something" and conclude that this something that was done or not done is the cause of death, that's just ludicrous.


I don't have an qualification to make any medical analysis, but judging from the study of Italian's Ministry of healthcare which we systematically banned Astrazeneca from under age 65 is a SOLID conclusion which shows that AZ JNJ vaccine are NOT suitable for younger population, they are high risks, if you are allowed to pick any vaccines go for Pfizer or moderna one, otherwise *Good luck.*


----------



## Plazorn (Aug 28, 2021)

Lol I got one and had zero side effects!


----------



## RocaBOT (Aug 28, 2021)

leon315 said:


> I don't have an qualification to make any medical analysis, but judging from the study of Italian's Ministry of healthcare which we systematically banned Astrazeneca from under age 65 is a SOLID conclusion which shows that AZ JNJ vaccine are NOT suitable for younger population, they are high risks, if you are allowed to pick any vaccines go for Pfizer or moderna one, otherwise *Good luck.*


That does not answer the point I was making that your previous post was complete nonsense and manipulation. Jumping onto an other subject to hide the fact is not going to work. And your country was not the only one to ban AZ for younger people, and it was *out of concern for a potential effect that was not yet even proved to exist, merely suspected*. This by no means shows they are not suitable, it only shows that under circumstances where something is unclear, our instances are able to make the careful choice of taking the route that seems less risky.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Let's assume that the vaccine did kill all those people, just for funsies. In fact, let's go bananas about it, let's say it killed a million people (it didn't) worldwide. So far 5.13 billion shots have been dispensed to patients around the globe. Y'know what that means? It means that your odds of dying from it would've been 1 in 5130, or 0.019%. I like those odds. That's assuming you have a million bodies dead in the ground from the jab, which you absolutely do not.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 28, 2021)

I had both shots of AZ and I somehow managed to get through the deadly process fine.  So did pretty much everyone I know.  As usual there is politics involved with those countries that decided to ban it on false premises.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 28, 2021)

Been a few days, what’s new wild fantasy have the anti-vaccine side posted?


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 28, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Been a few days, what’s new wild fantasy have the anti-vaccine side posted?


Everything beyond your wildest dreams.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 28, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Everything beyond your wildest dreams.


I did just finish taking a nap, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it looks like some conspiracy about people dying from the shot, so that’s a fun bit of nonsense


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 28, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I did just finish taking a nap, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it looks like some conspiracy about people dying from the shot, so that’s a fun bit of nonsense


Well, that conspiracy has always been a thing. So yeah, nothing new other than making up stuff and moving goalposts, as usual.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 28, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Well, that conspiracy has always been a thing. So yeah, nothing new other than making up stuff and moving goalposts, as usual.


Ah, the same old, I was hoping they would have posted a peer-reviewed paper by now


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I did just finish taking a nap, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it looks like some conspiracy about people dying from the shot, so that’s a fun bit of nonsense


I mean, it's not nonsense - *some* people definitely can have a severe reaction to a vaccine injection, or even die. Let's not pretend that vaccine injury isn't a thing. The problem here is that, as I illustrated above, it's so extremely rare that it barely enters the calculus. COVID-19 is orders of magnitude more dangerous than the jab, and claiming otherwise is stupid. If someone is concerned about their health deteriorating as a result of the jab that has, effectively, a 0% chance of harming them, I sure hope they live in a bunker, because I can think of a whole lot of things we do every single day that are much more likely to kill us, often instantly.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 28, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I mean, it's not nonsense - *some* people definitely can have a severe reaction to a vaccine injection, or even die. Let's not pretend that vaccine injury isn't a thing. The problem here is that, as I illustrated above, it's so extremely rare that it barely enters the calculus. COVID-19 is orders of magnitude more dangerous than the jab, and claiming otherwise is stupid. If someone is concerned about their health deteriorating as a result of the jab that has, effectively, a 0% chance of harming them, I sure hope they live in a bunker, because I can think of a whole lot of things we do every single day that are much more likely to kill us, often instantly.


I never said anything about vaccine injuries not happening but thus far the people bringing up death/injuries from the vaccines are either posting their inaccurate numbers or overblowing the numbers. It is nonsense to treat these cases as an argument against vaccines. Plus, yeah, Covid is worse than anything from the vaccine side effects, which is why I call it nonsense.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 29, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Ah, the same old, I was hoping they would have posted a peer-reviewed paper by now


Of course it's not posted yet. Their peers are smarter than them so it can't be submitted and published because they keep giving the paper back to the idiots after reviewing how dumb it all is.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 29, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Of course it's not posted yet. Their peers are smarter than them so it can't be submitted and published because they keep giving the paper back to the idiots after reviewing how dumb it all is.


I know they won’t post any actual peer-reviewed papers or even just a link in general. It makes me question how many of them actually trust their sources?


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 29, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I know they won’t post any actual peer-reviewed papers or even just a link in general. It makes me question how many of them actually trust their sources?


They trust whatever fits their narrative. And sometimes, whatever they post that *partially* fits their narrative is because they block out the rest of the article from their minds as the rest of it contradicts what they only like to see in it.


----------



## subcon959 (Aug 30, 2021)

Here's a BBC clip about the current data on AZ risk of side effects. Basically, there is indeed an increased risk of blood clots, however, it is almost 10 times less than the same risk if you actually got Covid-19.


----------



## djpannda (Aug 31, 2021)

The Best Piece of Argument done for mask and Vaccines 

I ran thru 2 red lights and 3 stop signed because it my GOD DANG Right to the Road.

These Pants are restrictive and "it" cant breathe These pants are Against my Freedom..
I am now Pants-less.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 31, 2021)

djpannda said:


> The Best Piece of Argument done for mask and Vaccines
> 
> I ran thru 2 red lights and 3 stop signed because it my GOD DANG Right to the Road.
> 
> ...



No shoe's no shirt no service, but a mask that's too far


----------



## djpannda (Aug 31, 2021)

SG854 said:


> No shoe's no shirt no service, but a mask that's too far


LOL think the next time someone Complains about mask and not wearing any, I will proceed to take my pants off while screaming the pants are resisting my Penis rights.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 31, 2021)

djpannda said:


> LOL think the next time someone Complains about mask and not wearing any, I will proceed to take my pants off while screaming the pants are resisting my Penis rights.


Free the Nipple? How about Free the Penis


----------



## djpannda (Aug 31, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Free the Nipple? How about Free the Penis


Well I been showing my Wenis all summer


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Aug 31, 2021)

djpannda said:


> The Best Piece of Argument done for mask and Vaccines
> 
> I ran thru 2 red lights and 3 stop signed because it my GOD DANG Right to the Road.
> 
> ...



Ok fine, I'll wear a mask as long as I don't have to see the guy's disgusting cock! lol


----------



## djpannda (Aug 31, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Ok fine, I'll wear a mask as long as I don't have to see the guy's disgusting cock! lol


thats all I asked for....lol


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Aug 31, 2021)

djpannda said:


> The Best Piece of Argument done for mask and Vaccines
> 
> I ran thru 2 red lights and 3 stop signed because it my GOD DANG Right to the Road.
> 
> ...


Might as well not wear a seatbelt (mask/vaccine) while driving. It restricts muh freedom because it makes me feel uncomfortable. I won't get into an accident (sick with COVID-19) and die from it or accidentally crash into other people (infect others with the virus). 

No way it'll happen to me. Nope, nuh-uh. Can't make me. Accidents don't exist. It's all a propaganda.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 31, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Might as well not wear a seatbelt (mask/vaccine) while driving. It restricts muh freedom because it makes me feel uncomfortable. I won't get into an accident (sick with COVID-19) and die from it or accidentally crash into other people (infect others with the virus).
> 
> No way it'll happen to me. Nope, nuh-uh. Can't make me. Accidents don't exist. It's all a propaganda.


A seat belt does not protect you from getting into an accident, nor does it prevent you from crashing into random pedestrians or other vehicles, it only protects you from being flung out of your vehicle or being thrown around it due to impact like a ragdoll. There's a case to be made that you can technically fly out through the windshield and subsequently hit something/someone if the force is sufficient, but at that point whatever is in front of you has bigger problems, namely the giant hunk of steel that either just crashed into it or is shooting debris in that general direction. I never understood the requirement for the driver to wear a seat belt, and never will - it's a device designed to protect the occupant of the vehicle, and as far as I'm concerned, they can make that decision themselves. For the record, I think driving without a seat belt is tremendously stupid and irresponsible (they work), but if I hear another car beep because I wasn't fast enough with it (as in, I took more than a picosecond), I might just jump into traffic myself. I have considered locating the exact fuse that's responsible for this feature and removing it entirely, but so far sitting awkwardly in the seat so as to not trigger the sensor while I fumble with the belt has done the trick. All a complete aside, of course - you should wear masks, and there are externalities to consider here, so there is some justification for a mandate. Whether that justification is enough should be subject to debate, not cringe-inducing striptease.


----------



## notimp (Aug 31, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I never understood the requirement for the driver to wear a seat belt, and never will - it's a device designed to protect the occupant of the vehicle, and as far as I'm concerned, they can make that decision themselves.



Seat belts dramatically reduce risk of death and serious injury. Among drivers and front-seat passengers, seat belts reduce the risk of death by 45%, and cut the risk of serious injury by 50%.4
Seat belts prevent drivers and passengers from being ejected during a crash. People not wearing a seat belt are 30 times more likely to be ejected from a vehicle during a crash. More than 3 out of 4 people who are ejected during a fatal crash die from their injuries.5
https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/seatbeltbrief/index.html


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 31, 2021)

notimp said:


> *Seat belts dramatically reduce risk of death and serious injury*. Among drivers and front-seat passengers, seat belts reduce the risk of death by 45%, and cut the risk of serious injury by 50%.4
> *Seat belts prevent drivers and passengers from being ejected during a crash*. People not wearing a seat belt are 30 times more likely to be ejected from a vehicle during a crash. More than 3 out of 4 people who are ejected during a fatal crash die from their injuries.5
> https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/seatbeltbrief/index.html


Yes, they do, I've said as much. What I contested was that they prevent accidents, which they do not in any shape or form.


----------



## djpannda (Aug 31, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Yes, they do, I've said as much. What I contested was that they prevent accidents, which they do not in any shape or form.


and? the point of seatbelt/safety devices are to lower and prevent death and injury from the disaster. not the disaster itself. Just like mask are meant to "lower and Prevent death and Injury from the disaster (COVID)"


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 31, 2021)

djpannda said:


> and? the point of seatbelt/safety devices are to lower and prevent death and injury from the disaster. not the disaster itself. Just like mask are meant to "lower and Prevent death and Injury from the disaster (COVID)"


The government is not responsible for keeping me safe from my own decisions. If I want to be reckless and do something stupid that has no externalities (as in, I am not hurting anybody) or externalities that are largely mitigated by other factors, there is no reason for the government to get involved. In fact, it could be argued that it's an imposition on individual freedoms, which includes the freedom to be stupid. I am fully in favour of people being free to engage in any behaviour that does not cause harm to others, this includes behaviour that is self-destructive. We all know that alcohol, cigarettes (or nicotine products in general, but cigarettes especially on account of tar) or other drugs are detrimental to your health, but you would be hard-pressed to convince me that they should be illegal.

EDIT, since you've also edited your post: 99%+ of hospitalizations are now unvaccinated patients. We told them to take the jab and they didn't listen - that's not my fault, it's theirs. They made a stupid decision in regards to their personal health and are now suffering the consequences of their choice. This is in no way an argument to impose on my own freedom. The mitigating factor here is the freely available vaccine - anyone can take the jab, it's 96%+ effective, if statistics are to be believed, and that's good enough for me. You are exceedingly unlikely to die or suffer severe consequences from the disease if you are vaccinated, so the ball is in your court, not mine. Pretty simple, from where I'm sitting.


----------



## djpannda (Aug 31, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The government is not responsible for keeping me safe from my own decisions. If I want to be reckless and do something stupid …..but you would be hard-pressed to convince me that they should be illegal.
> .


Yet almost every country in the world have seatbelt, traffic,Public decency, safety regulations that “the government placed to stop people from doing stupid things”… this is no different


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 31, 2021)

djpannda said:


> Yet almost every country in the world have seatbelt, traffic,Public decency, safety regulations that “the government placed to stop people from doing stupid things”… this is no different


I never said that they don't, I said that I consider the requirement unjustified since it does not serve public safety, it's the nanny state keeping the driver safe from himself. A vaccine mandate would be very different as it would require people to undergo medical procedures they did not consent to - making vaccines easily accessible to the public is good enough. Keeping other people safe from the consequences of their own decisions is not my concern, it's not your concern and it's not the government's job.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 1, 2021)

I was only making a sarcastic comment and making fun of people making excuses to not wear masks and take the vaccine.

The point was that masks and vaccines do indeed help and reduce the risk of serious illnesses/injuries/death along with reducing/slowing down the rate of infection onto others.

Was comparing seatbelts with masks and vaccines and accidents as getting sick with COVID-19.

With the vaccine, you reduce the risk of getting the serious illnesses. And of course reduce the risk of dying from COVID-19.
With a seatbelt, you reduce the risk of flying out of your seat and hit your head through the window. And, of course, reduce the risk of dying from the accident.
I guess it wasn't good to make seatbelts also be like masks, so that's on me.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> I was only making a sarcastic comment and making fun of people making excuses to not wear masks and take the vaccine.
> 
> The point was that masks and vaccines do indeed help and reduce the risk of serious illnesses/injuries/death along with reducing/slowing down the rate of infection onto others.
> 
> ...


Oh, I understood your point. You're not wrong, we should definitely take precautions to keep ourselves safe, and prevent the spread of the virus.


----------



## tabzer (Sep 1, 2021)

Guys, do I need a license for this body of mine?  I'll be the first to admit that it's my privilege and not your right.


----------



## SG854 (Sep 1, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Guys, do I need a license for this body of mine?  I'll be the first to admit that it's my privilege and not your right.


@Lacius is giving out the license


----------



## AncientBoi (Sep 1, 2021)

I intend to get a 3rd injection. No matter what you guys say. And yes, I do wear a mask. So there pfffffft. lol


----------



## Lacius (Sep 1, 2021)

SG854 said:


> @Lacius is giving out the license


I'm doing what now?


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 1, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Guys, do I need a license for this body of mine?  I'll be the first to admit that it's my privilege and not your right.


Much like you can't harbor infectious waste on your person in public, you can't knowingly do the same with a virus. If you want to go out on the town, get vaccinated and wear a mask. Otherwise, camp it out and pray it goes away soon.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 1, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I'm doing what now?


Giving away sex licenses.


----------



## tabzer (Sep 1, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Much like you can't harbor infectious waste on your person in public, you can't knowingly do the same with a virus. If you want to go out on the town, get vaccinated and wear a mask. Otherwise, camp it out and pray it goes away soon.



I'm not sure how this is related to what I said, but okay.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 1, 2021)

Something something, anything worth a damn from the anti-vax side?


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Much like you can't harbor infectious waste on your person in public, you can't knowingly do the same with a virus. If you want to go out on the town, get vaccinated and wear a mask. Otherwise, camp it out and pray it goes away soon.


Sure, you can't do that knowingly (there's actually legal precedent for this). Unvaccinated people, generally, don't know if they have the virus or not, not until they get symptoms, so this example doesn't work. You also can't sequester them just because you don't like their decision, so what do you propose?


----------



## SG854 (Sep 1, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Something something, anything worth a damn from the anti-vax side?


All I got from Anti Vax No Mask was Free the Mouth Movement


And to counter this
Free the Penis Movement was proposed


Oh God now that I think about it what a disaster


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 1, 2021)

SG854 said:


> All I got from Anti Vax No Mask was Free the Mouth Movement
> 
> 
> And to counter this
> ...


Ok, so still no actual papers or sources.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 1, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Ok, so still no actual papers or sources.


Its hard to come up with something that doesn't exist.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Sure, you can't do that knowingly (there's actually legal precedent for this). Unvaccinated people, generally, don't know if they have the virus or not, not until they get symptoms, so this example doesn't work. You also can't sequester them just because you don't like their decision, so what do you propose?


Sequestering folk was the remedy prior to the vaccine being released, so it stands to reason it'd continue to be the go-to solution for those who refuse to vaccinate. Covid testing without precautions has lead to a metric boatload of cases even in the highest echelons of government, so I propose that it is still too dangerous for the unvaccinated to presume themselves not at risk and to bunker in if they don't care to get the shot.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Sequestering folk was the remedy prior to the vaccine being released, so it stands to reason it'd continue to be the go-to solution for those who refuse to vaccinate. Covid testing without precautions has lead to a metric boatload of cases even in the highest echelons of government, so I propose that it is still too dangerous for the unvaccinated to presume themselves not at risk and to bunker in if they don't care to get the shot.


That's not exactly true, is it? The lockdowns didn't just encompass the unvaccinated, they were all-encompassing - the economy was temporarily shut down. If we argue that a virus can be considered a natural disaster (I don't see why it wouldn't) then we can put that in the national emergency bucket and few people will scoff at that, generally. You don't get to do that selectively, I'm afraid - particularly not when it's on the basis of the exercise of rights. Of course you always have the option of going full totalitarian/authoritarian and force people into isolation, but then the mask slips, and we wouldn't want that.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 1, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Sequestering folk was the remedy prior to the vaccine being released, so it stands to reason it'd continue to be the go-to solution for those who refuse to vaccinate. Covid testing without precautions has lead to a metric boatload of cases even in the highest echelons of government, so I propose that it is still too dangerous for the unvaccinated to presume themselves not at risk and to bunker in if they don't care to get the shot.


One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.


Seems to me like the problem is solving itself.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> That's not exactly true, is it? The lockdowns didn't just encompass the unvaccinated, they were all-encompassing - the economy was temporarily shut down. If we argue that a virus can be considered a natural disaster (I don't see why it wouldn't) then we can put that in the national emergency bucket and few people will scoff at that, generally. You don't get to do that selectively, I'm afraid - particularly not when it's on the basis of the exercise of rights. Of course you always have the option of going full totalitarian/authoritarian and force people into isolation, but then the mask slips, and we wouldn't want that.


I don't think I'm wearing some sort of "Freedom for all, always!" facade with this. I believe the power of the government should absolutely be used to save lives even at the cost of personal freedoms during an emergency situation. Freedom only matters to the living, and I'd rather hear a survivor rage than mourn a silent fool. In my book, we should all still isolate a while longer and utilize the strongest government on planet earth to fund shutting down the government until this is more in check, even knowing I'm an essential employee who doesn't have the luxury of time off during the crisis. I don't care if folks get money for not working while I still have to, so long as it saves folk, but I'll compromise and say that those who refuse the jab can gestate in their own ire for science away from society at large while it works to sort out this mess.


linuxares said:


> One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.


We just had something like that happen in Florida, the very prospect of so many doctors coming out in support of a press conference caused such a scare that the media presumed it was a walk-out. Sometimes, you have to lead that horse to water and force its head in the drink before it realizes it needs that fluid to live...


Foxi4 said:


> Seems to me like the problem is solving itself.


And then the mask slips on the other side. Very compassionate. Much wow.


----------



## Jayro (Sep 1, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> And then the mask slips on the other side. Very compassionate. Much wow.


Sorry, not Sorry. But if people are too stupid and ignorant to get vaccinated and then die of covid, you won't see a single tear shed from me. (Excluding the immuno-suppressed people who can't have the vaccine, of course.)


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I don't think I'm wearing some sort of "Freedom for all, always!" facade with this. I believe *the power of the government should absolutely be used to save lives even at the cost of personal freedoms* during an emergency situation. Freedom only matters to the living, and I'd rather hear a survivor rage than mourn a silent fool. In my book, we should all still isolate a while longer and utilize the strongest government on planet earth to fund shutting down the government until this is more in check, even knowing I'm an essential employee who doesn't have the luxury of time off during the crisis. I don't care if folks get money for not working while I still have to, so long as it saves folk, but I'll compromise and say that those who refuse the jab can gestate in their own ire for science away from society at large while it works to sort out this mess.


The authoritarian types always have a good excuse for why the exercise of immutable rights should be "temporarily" suspended (temporarily meaning forever, since if the government can suspend it ad hoc then they're no longer rights), and it's usually the "greater good" du jour, I just wanted to establish that this is the case. I'm all for people self-isolating if they're unwilling or unable to get vaccinated, I just don't point a gun at them while I make the suggestion. I meant to establish whether you're suggesting to use force and coercion to get your desired outcome, and I think I got my answer, so I consider the subject fully exhausted.


> And then the mask slips on the other side. Very compassionate. Much wow.


Does it? I never claimed that your choices don't come with consequences. That's not my fault now, is it? If you don't get the jab, which is free and accessible, and you catch the virus, that's on you. The difference here is that I don't force anyone to do anything whereas you're suggesting "using the power of the government" (which boils down to force, since the government has the most and the biggest guns) to either sequester people (false imprisonment) or make them undergo unwanted medical procedures (violation of bodily integrity). If that is not the case then you'll have to be more specific with your answer.


Jayro said:


> Sorry, not Sorry. But if people are too stupid and ignorant to get vaccinated and then die of covid, you won't see a single tear shed from me. (Excluding the immuno-suppressed people who can't have the vaccine, of course.)


Their body, their choice, no? I'm of the same mindset. It's not like they weren't told, what they do from this point onward isn't my problem.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> One of the biggest Hospitals in Sweden got almost a 100% rate in the ICU of unvaccinated people. Not a single patient from COVID have gotten any vaccine. The hospital staff is super pissed because of the time and unnecessary hospital resources for these people.


Pretty much happening in so many hospitals in places that are heavily affected. Most patients that have the virus aren't even vaccinated and are basically filling up every single bed.

To make matters even worse, there are other patients that have other complicated health problems that need to get admitted into those hospitals and to use those beds and such, but can't because all the doctors and nurses are all too busy and no room left. So those poor folks have to stay out in the hallways for hours or even days to finally get admitted.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The authoritarian types always have a good excuse for why the exercise of immutable rights should be "temporarily" suspended (temporarily meaning forever, since if the government can suspend it ad hoc then it's not a right), and it's usually the "greater good" du jour, I just wanted to establish that this is the case. I'm all for people self-isolating if they're unwilling or unable to get vaccinated, I just don't point a gun at them while I make the suggestion. I meant to establish whether you're suggesting to use force and coercion to get your desired outcome, and I think I got my answer, so I consider the subject fully exhausted.
> Does it? I never claimed that your choices don't come with consequences. That's not my fault now, is it?



I just find it funny that on one hand, you mock the idea of postponing freedoms for a greater good, then mock those who are failed by their government's unwillingness to save its people. Yes, I think the law should be involved in making isolation mandatory for those who refuse to get vaccinated and still want to run about as though there isn't a viral outbreak. I think there should also be a request of the populous in general to isolate a while longer while we wait for the vaccine to be ready for children, who are already running into the pandemic face-first when they aren't in a position to even understand all the facts, let alone take responsibility for them.

I know you like to believe that DA GUBBERMENT is some kind of boogieman that gobbles up power and then uses it to commit atrocities while never yielding anything back, but it kinda exists for a purpose and as an extension of the will of the people in a representative democracy. How much representation is being reflected in the government at any time is a subject for some fierce debate, to be sure, but it isn't some kind of jabberwocky sith hybrid baby conceived of by satan after he watched some puppy sodomy and thought "I can be more evil somehow..." Emergency powers should be utilized, then ended after the emergency. Simple and sweet.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I just find it funny that on one hand, you mock the idea of postponing freedoms for a greater good, then mock those who are *failed by their government's unwillingness to save its people*. Yes, I think the law should be involved in making isolation mandatory for those who refuse to get vaccinated and still want to run about as though there isn't a viral outbreak. I think there should also be a request of the populous in general to isolate a while longer while we wait for the vaccine to be ready for children, who are already running into the pandemic face-first when they aren't in a position to even understand all the facts, let alone take responsibility for them.


The government hasn't failed them - they made the vaccine accessible to anybody willing to take it. You can get a jab drive-through style, the inconvenience has been reduced to almost nothing. These patients made a bad call in regards to their personal health, the only person responsible for that is them. Let them be a warning for others - it's free, you should take it, so that you don't end up in an ICU yourself. It's not for you to judge what "position" they're in or what they can or can't understand - you don't make decisions on behalf of other grown adults, particularly not in regards to their own health. Very simple stuff.


> I know you like to believe that DA GUBBERMENT is some kind of boogieman that gobbles up power and then uses it to commit atrocities while never yielding anything back, but it kinda exists for a purpose and as an extension of the will of the people in a representative democracy. How much representation is being reflected in the government at any time is a subject for some fierce debate, to be sure, but it isn't some kind of *jabberwocky sith hybrid baby conceived of by satan* after he watched some puppy sodomy and thought "I can be more evil somehow..." Emergency powers should be utilized, then ended after the emergency. Simple and sweet.


Oh, I know what the government is, what purpose it serves and what it is and is not empowered to do. The common misconception on your side is that it's supposed to be Superman. All I'm saying is that my immutable rights supercede government mandate, and they do. There is no emergency anymore - anyone can get vaccinated and be (relatively) safe from the virus. Not immune by any means, but not at a severe risk of death, which is acceptable. The time for an emergency, as in a threat that we could not effectively counteract or control, is over. This is simple stuff - there's a biological agent suspended in the air and can kill you - if you can't stop it, it's the government's job to warn the population and suspend everyday activities until we have means to prevent that agent from killing people. Once those measures are developed, this need no longer exists.

Here's an analogy - by some miracle or act of magic the floor is suddenly lava. If you step on it, you die, and we don't know how that works or how to stop it. You would *expect* the government to cordon off the floors in the country so as to prevent people from bursting into flames at random through *no fault of their own*. If we later develop magical shoes that let you walk on lava, it is encumbent on the government to distribute said magical shoes so that everybody can return to their normal lives. Now, let's say someone refuses to accept the magical shoes - if they burst into flames, that's on them. They've been given all the opportunities to elect to wear them and *chose not to*, so their fiery demise is *their fault*. It is not encumbent on the government to *make them* wear magic shoes, we can only try to convince them that it's probably a good idea to get a *free pair*, courtesy of Uncle Sam. There is zero liability that follows after someone refuses life-saving preventative measures, it's an individual choice which automatically transfers all responsibility.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 1, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Its hard to come up with something that doesn't exist.


I am just going to keep coming back and asking the same question until I am finally on the ignore list of every anti-vaxxor on the site.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Here's an analogy - by some miracle or act of magic the floor is suddenly lava. If you step on it, you die, and we don't know how that works or how to stop it. You would *expect* the government to cordon off the floors in the country so as to prevent people from bursting into flames at random through *no fault of their own*. If we later develop magical shoes that let you walk on lava, it is encumbent on the government to distribute said magical shoes so that everybody can return to their normal lives. Now, let's say someone refuses to accept the magical shoes - if they burst into flames, that's on them. They've been given all the opportunities to elect to wear them and *chose not to*, so their fiery demise is *their fault*. It is not encumbent on the government to *make them* wear magic shoes, we can only try to convince them that it's probably a good idea to get a *free pair*, courtesy of Uncle Sam. There is zero liability that follows after someone refuses life-saving preventative measures, it's an individual choice which automatically transfers all responsibility.


What if every person that chooses not to wear the magic shoes pushes 5 other people already wearing the shoes off balance and they fall in the lava?


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> What if every person that chooses not to wear the magic shoes pushes 5 other people already wearing the shoes off balance and they fall in the lava?


The 5 people will be fine since their own magic shoes will protect them... unless they're not wearing magic shoes either, in which case they have nobody to blame but themselves. I can make this assertion with a high degree of confidence thanks to hospital records - 99%+ of new ICU admissions are people not wearing magic sneakers. From that I extrapolate that people who do wear magic sneakers are, for the most part, protected - they might get a mild sun tan while watching their non-sneaker-wearing neighbours spontaneously combust, but I'm not going to treat mild sniffles as a life-threatening condition. This is basic personal responsibility, is that not a thing anymore?


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The 5 people will be fine since their own magic shoes will protect them... unless they're not wearing magic shoes either, in which case they have nobody to blame but themselves. I can make this assertion with a high degree of confidence thanks to hospital record - 99%+ of new ICU admissions are people not wearing magic sneakers. From that I extrapolate that people who do wear magic sneakers are, for the most part, protected - they might get a mild sun tan while watching their non-sneaker-wearing neighbours spontaneously combust, but I'm not going to treat mild sniffles as a life-threatening condition. This is basic personal responsibility, is that not a thing anymore?


It absolutely is, I'm just a bit concerned that the people without magic shoes will cause the lava to stick around long enough that it starts to break through the magic shoes of the smart people.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> It absolutely is, I'm just a bit concerned that the people without magic shoes will cause the lava to stick around long enough that it starts to break through the magic shoes of the smart people.


I'm afraid that at this stage it is inevitable - the lava has spread too wide, it is no longer feasible to eradicate it. We've got lava covering every continent on the planet, you can't control that, you can only react. If anything, it is more likely that we'll see seasonal lava flows, which shouldn't be an issue - we've been dealing with the common flooding and the hurricanefluenza for centuries. On the bright side, as the issue mutates, it is likely to become less and less deadly, much like other similar kerfuffles.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm afraid that at this stage it is inevitable - the lava has spread too wide, it is no longer feasible to eradicate it. We've got lava covering every continent on the planet, you can't control that, you can only react. If anything, it is more likely that we'll see seasonal lava flows, which shouldn't be an issue - we've been dealing with the common flooding and the hurricanefluenza for centuries. On the bright side, as the issue mutates, it is likely to become less and less deadly, much like other similar kerfuffles.


Well, I'm not fond of having to change shoes every year but it's better than nothing. I do hope that any mutation doesn't somehow mean the lava starts to affect the younger people who weren't offered magic shoes because they already had strong socks.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm afraid that at this stage it is inevitable - the lava has spread too wide, it is no longer feasible to eradicate it. We've got lava covering every continent on the planet, you can't control that, you can only react.


This is some next level "The Floor is Lava".


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 1, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Well, I'm not fond of having to change shoes every year but it's better than nothing. I do hope that any mutation doesn't somehow mean the lava starts to affect the younger people who weren't offered magic shoes because they already had strong socks.


We'll just have to wait and see. I don't see an issue with including the fresh sneakers with other garments normally given to children going forward.


LinkmstrYT said:


> This is some next level "The Floor is Lava".


Just you wait until ceiling is lava!


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 1, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Just you wait until ceiling is lava!


These buildings are something else for lava to be on the ceiling.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 2, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> These buildings are something else for lava to be on the ceiling.


They're made in China.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 2, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> They're made in China.


Ah, that makes sense.


----------



## notimp (Sep 3, 2021)




----------



## tabzer (Sep 6, 2021)

Just here to take a roll call.  Who supports Israel giving out a fourth dose of the "vaccine"?

@Lacius
@Dakitten
@LinkmstrYT
@Foxi4
@Lilith Valentine
@Whoever I forgot.

If you want to borg yourself "for science", maybe you should go on over there and be apart of the progressive "not an experiment" experiment.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Just here to take a roll call.  Who supports Israel giving out a fourth dose of the "vaccine"?
> 
> @Lacius
> @Dakitten
> ...


Regarding the United States, the data is clear that protection starts to wane some time after the second dose (first/only dose with J&J), which is why those of us in the United States who haven't already done so will likely be getting third doses soon (second dose with J&J). The scientific data is clear that it's safe, effective, and useful.

I don't know anything about what Israel has or hasn't done, and I don't really care. They may or may not be inefficiently using vaccine doses.

Edit: Also, are you arguing that anyone getting third or fourth vaccine doses are "borging" themselves? You do know the vaccine does not contain microchips, right?


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Just here to take a roll call.  Who supports Israel giving out a fourth dose of the "vaccine"?
> 
> @Lacius
> @Dakitten
> ...


You realize additional doses aren't an uncommon practice and that the US is also giving additional doses, right? Like, your lack of understanding of science and distrust of vaccines isn't evidence for whatever point you are trying to make if you aren't willing or able to provide sources to back up that distrust.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Just here to take a roll call.  Who supports Israel giving out a fourth dose of the "vaccine"?
> 
> @Lacius
> @Dakitten
> ...


Israel’s vaccine rollout was quick and effective, it lowered the number of daily cases from thousands to single digits. Sadly, its proximity to states that are not as diligent with their vaccination schemes makes it susceptible to any variant outbreaks. This is precisely what we’re seeing now - the vestiges of the unvaxxed population catching the much more transmissible variants - with restrictions lifted it’s an expected consequence.



The idea that it’s some kind of mind control experiment is stupid, and supported by nothing. If anything, you’re the one getting psyopped to make the right wing look stupid (and it’s working).


----------



## tabzer (Sep 6, 2021)

Lol.  I don't care how you think I look.  You are rationalizing a fourth dose.  I'm sure it makes people who haven't opted into covid-life feel a little more relieved about not getting roped into a lifetime subscription of medical treatment.

I just wanted you to put yourself on record, for supporting this.  So thank you.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Lol.  I don't care how you think I look.  You are rationalizing a fourth dose.  I'm sure it makes people who haven't opted into covid-life feel a little more relieved about not getting roped into a lifetime subscription of medical treatment.
> 
> I just wanted you to put yourself on record, for supporting this.  So thank you.


This isn’t a gotcha moment, why would supporting additional doses be a problem? It’s not an uncommon practice and is found to increase the effectiveness the vaccine, especially when dealing with newer strains of the virus. Do you have any reason to consider this a gotcha moment? Any sources that says additional doses is problematic? What’s the point of your post?


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Lol.  I don't care how you think I look.  You are rationalizing a fourth dose.  I'm sure it makes people who haven't opted into covid-life feel a little more relieved about not getting roped into a lifetime subscription of medical treatment.
> 
> I just wanted you to put yourself on record, for supporting this.  So thank you.


There’s nothing to rationalise, the virus is changing rapidly and the efficacy of the vaccine is waning. I don’t understand what the issue here is. The COVID-19 we were dealing with in 2019 is not the same as the virus we’re dealing with right now. For all intents and purposes, people who already had their vaccine and booster don’t have a whole lot to worry about. Having a quick look at the data from Israel it’s clear that while 60% of current hospitalisations are vaccinated patients, one has to consider that **80% of all Israelis above 12 are vaccinated**, so you’re dealing with a larger cohort. Moreover, the hospitalisations that are listed as severe primarily affect the elderly who are already especially vulnerable. Once you stratify by age you can easily calculate the effectiveness against serious disease - 67.5%. The unvaccinated cohort is 3.1x more likely to end up in the ICU, there’s just five times less of them compared to the vaccinated, hence the disparity. To translate from math to English, if there are 5 houses on a given street, 1 shack and 4 new builds, and an earthquake destroys 2 houses, the shack and 1 new build, that doesn’t mean that new builds are just as good as the shack - the shack was more likely to collapse from the start. Mid-January the 7-day rolling average of deaths was 62, now it’s at 31, and the people *dying* from Delta are not vaccinated. I know that math and data are hard, but that’s precisely what’s happening.

Edit: While we’re getting things on record, if you are susceptible to the seasonal flu, I strongly suggest a seasonal jab, every single year, from now until the end of your life. It won’t make you glow, but it will help you avoid laying in bed with a temperature for two weeks while shaking your fist in the air and cursing past you for forgetting your vaccination yet again. This might come as a shock, but seasonal flu? It’s seasonal because it’s not the same every single year - if it was, you wouldn’t be catching it, silly. You can get one every single year, for good measure - there’s no reason not to.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 6, 2021)

I found this to be an interesting read.. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01609-4#ref-CR4 (reference the actual studies at the end if you're sceptical about the article itself)

I believe it ties in with the herd immunity idea that seemed to shock everyone at the beginning of the pandemic, but if most people are exposed to (and survive) the virus and then get a single dose of vaccine the resulting protection is much higher than from multiple doses alone. Of course, I wouldn't recommend anyone knowingly take that gamble, but it does seem like a one size fits all approach may not be the best.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 6, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I found this to be an interesting read.. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01609-4#ref-CR4 (reference the actual studies at the end if you're sceptical about the article itself)
> 
> I believe it ties in with the herd immunity idea that seemed to shock everyone at the beginning of the pandemic, but if most people are exposed to (and survive) the virus and then get a single dose of vaccine the resulting protection is much higher than from multiple doses alone. Of course, I wouldn't recommend anyone knowingly take that gamble, but it does seem like a one size fits all approach may not be the best.


Yeah read about it as well. Some doctors also recommend 1 mRNA and 1 Classic vaccine. It seem to give some greater protections as well. But it's to early to tell really. Hopefully the virus will get less hosts so it won't mutate as much so it can either die down to a common cold virus or just phase out.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 6, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Lol.  I don't care how you think I look.  You are rationalizing a fourth dose.  I'm sure it makes people who haven't opted into covid-life feel a little more relieved about not getting roped into a lifetime subscription of medical treatment.
> 
> I just wanted you to put yourself on record, for supporting this.  So thank you.



My name is Dakitten, I am da kitten, and I support jab 1, 2, 10, and 20 if that's what it takes to eliminate a budding family of virus strains. This could have been just an outbreak, but now it's possibly the annual superflu. Thanks, antivaxxers, for your part in that.

On a side note, I've been murdered by work and no days off due to the recall election in California, but I actually had somebody point out a 5g transmitter one morning before ranting about how "when that thing turns on, all you stupid vaccinated sheep are gonna have a real bad time!"

I think nobody told these people they're already on...


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Sep 6, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> On a side note, I've been murdered by work and no days off due to the recall election in California, but I actually had somebody point out a 5g transmitter one morning before ranting about how "when that thing turns on, all you stupid vaccinated sheep are gonna have a real bad time!"
> 
> I think nobody told these people they're already on...



There's a couple of guys that live in the same apartment complex that I do, and they go around telling people that all of the vaccinated are going to be zombies once 5g is turned on. They tried telling me that bullshit and I'm like, ummmmm... you guys DO know that there are already active 5g towers in places with a large population of vaccinated people... right? Then it always changes to something stupid like "Wait until people have been exposed to it for a year! Then you'll see!!!" or "They're active but they haven't pushed the zombie switch yet until more people are vaccinated that they can control!!!"


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 6, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> My name is Dakitten, I am da kitten, and I support jab 1, 2, 10, and 20 if that's what it takes to eliminate a budding family of virus strains. This could have been just an outbreak, but now it's possibly the annual superflu. Thanks, antivaxxers, for your part in that.
> 
> On a side note, I've been murdered by work and no days off due to the recall election in California, but I actually had somebody point out a 5g transmitter one morning before ranting about how "when that thing turns on, all you stupid vaccinated sheep are gonna have a real bad time!"
> 
> I think nobody told these people they're already on...


One of the greatest blessing of the internet has been informing people of the world around them. This is greatest curse as well, as the internet has bred the misinformation that has convinced people that 5G is the cause of Covid/turns you into a woman/is mind control technology/turns the freaking frogs gay.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 6, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> One of the greatest blessing of the internet has been informing people of the world around them. This is greatest curse as well, as the internet has bred the misinformation that has convinced people that 5G is the cause of Covid/turns you into a woman/is mind control technology/turns the freaking frogs gay.


I don't remember any conspiracy regarding 5G turning frogs gay. That'd be chemicals we put in the water, which is technically correct - one of the commonly used ingredients in herbicide, atrazine, was found to work as an endocrine disruptor. It alters the physiology of male frogs to the point that their testosterone levels are below those of female specimens, disrupting their sexual development and effectively feminising them. The research regarding this chemical has been contested by the manufacturer of the herbicide (no surprise there), but as it stands, yes - we're putting chemicals in the water that turn the frogs gay. The more you know!


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 6, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't remember any conspiracy regarding 5G turning frogs gay. That'd be chemicals we put in the water, which is technically correct - one of the commonly used ingredients in herbicide, atrazine, was found to work as an endocrine disruptor. It alters the physiology of male frogs to the point that their testosterone levels are below those of female specimens, disrupting their sexual development and effectively feminising them. The research regarding this chemical has been contested by the manufacturer of the herbicide (no surprise there), but as it stands, yes - we're putting chemicals in the water that turn the frogs gay. The more you know!



To be fair and balanced, mercury supposedly has been doing a similar thing to some bird populations, too... via unintentional pollution, like with the frogs. The meme of "turning the freaking frogs gay!" is a jab at Alex Jones, the defeathered king of the wackadoo birds, who believed it to be part of a pro gay agenda conspiracy and/or military testing of a feminizing chemical weapon. I'm almost certain you know this, but ffs, you had to really disassemble the joke so here we are...

Middle east gay bomb made after testing it out on frogs, by King Wackadoo


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 6, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> To be fair and balanced, mercury supposedly has been doing a similar thing to some bird populations, too... via unintentional pollution, like with the frogs. The meme of "turning the freaking frogs gay!" is a jab at Alex Jones, the defeathered king of the wackadoo birds, who believed it to be part of a pro gay agenda conspiracy and/or military testing of a feminizing chemical weapon. I'm almost certain you know this, but ffs, you had to really disassemble the joke so here we are...
> 
> Middle east gay bomb made after testing it out on frogs, by King Wackadoo


That's the joke. Everybody knows that. Now that you've explained it though...



For the record, the "Gay Bomb" was at one point a proposed non-lethal chemical weapon which, in theory, would've turned enemy combatants gay, presumably to decrease combat effeciency. For real, there was even a three-page proposal in 1994 - thanks, Freedom of Information Act!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bomb


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 6, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't remember any conspiracy regarding 5G turning frogs gay. That'd be chemicals we put in the water, which is technically correct - one of the commonly used ingredients in herbicide, atrazine, was found to work as an endocrine disruptor. It alters the physiology of male frogs to the point that their testosterone levels are below those of female specimens, disrupting their sexual development and effectively feminising them. The research regarding this chemical has been contested by the manufacturer of the herbicide (no surprise there), but as it stands, yes - we're putting chemicals in the water that turn the frogs gay. The more you know!


It's not about the accuracy of the statement but the absurdity of the claims around 5G. Claiming 5G turns the freaking frogs gay is as absurd a claim as saying it makes you grow tits or is working vaccines for mind-control reasons. I can tell you for a fact that 5G doesn't make you grow boobs because I had boobs before getting a 5G phone and they haven't gotten any bigger.


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> a lifetime subscription of medical treatment.


Sounds kind of like universal healthcare. I'm sure many people prefer that than none at all.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 7, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> It's not about the accuracy of the statement but the absurdity of the claims around 5G. Claiming 5G turns the freaking frogs gay is as absurd a claim as saying it makes you grow tits or is working vaccines for mind-control reasons. I can tell you for a fact that 5G doesn't make you grow boobs because I had boobs before getting a 5G phone and they haven't gotten any bigger.


That’s one subject I have nothing to say about since discussing privates on an Internet forum is crass. What I will say is that the argument of absurdity doesn’t apply to the U.S. Government which has sunk bushels of cash on research that was completely ridiculous or insane, including (but not limited to) trying to ignite the atmosphere just to see if they can.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 7, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> That’s one subject I have nothing to say about since discussing privates on an Internet forum is crass. What I will say is that the argument of absurdity doesn’t apply to the U.S. Government which has sunk bushels of cash on research that was completely ridiculous or insane, including (but not limited to) trying to ignite the atmosphere just to see if they can.


Fair, still, the point was just that the conspiracies around 5G are silly.


----------



## g00s3y (Sep 7, 2021)




----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 7, 2021)

g00s3y said:


>


This is untrue. Ivermectin (the drug being referred to here) has been used in the treatment of malaria and other parasitic infections, it does not “sterilise” men, so I’m not sure why you’d post that other than to disinform or in jest. The drug is actively trialed for the purposes of malaria control.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)32613-8/fulltext

It has a temporary, slight effect on fertility that can be ameliorated with other drugs, and only when administered over extended periods of time (it affects the shape of sperm, among other things). Here’s one study, among many - in this case it was tested on male rats:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783912/

Saying that it “sterilises 85%” of males who had it administered is just incorrect. With that being said, *you shouldn’t be taking it for COVID-19 anyway because it’s a virus, not a parasite*. Fertility is the last of your concerns here, ivermectin can *induce coma or even cause death* when a wrong dose is administered. You shouldn’t be self-medicating, *ever*, especially not with drugs that are *not fit for purpose or not designed for human consumption*.

EDIT: Just traced this claim back to its origin, an *extremely dubious* study from Nigeria. Moreover, it does not conclude that the drug “causes infertility in 85% of patients”, it specifically states that some sperm dysfunction was detected in the tested individuals which in turn may cause infertility for *some* patients, and advises further research. I couldn’t even find it when Googling for it, I had to trace back the tweet chain. About as trustworthy as a $2 pistol. Link for the curious:

https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary...tions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients.pdf


----------



## g00s3y (Sep 7, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> This is untrue. Ivermectin (the drug being referred to here) has been used in the treatment of malaria and other parasitic infections, it does not “sterilise” men, so I’m not sure why you’d post that other than to disinform or in jest. The drug is actively trialed for the purposes of malaria control.
> 
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)32613-8/fulltext
> 
> ...



Yes, it was a joke, great job turning it into whatever.

Technically, it is killing males, making them sterile... I would go more with the joke, but you would probably write a college paper about it.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 7, 2021)

g00s3y said:


> Yes, it was a joke, great job turning it into whatever.
> 
> Technically, it is killing males, making them sterile... I would go more with the joke, but you would probably write a college paper about it.


Well, it was a shitty joke.


----------



## leon315 (Sep 7, 2021)

Just got my 2nd jab of PFIZER vaccine!
And Fuck Pfizer's shares is still as same as last week!


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 7, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Well, it was a shitty joke.


I thought it was cute. Foxi just has to pee on anything he can to stay relevant. ​


----------



## linuxares (Sep 7, 2021)

g00s3y said:


> Yes, it was a joke, great job turning it into whatever.
> 
> Technically, it is killing males, making them sterile... I would go more with the joke, but you would probably write a college paper about it.


well if they use the dosage on them... then the probability might be they get sterile. I  mean it's for a horse!


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 7, 2021)

linuxares said:


> well if they use the dosage on them... then the probability might be they get sterile. I  mean it's for a horse!


Does that mean when a doctor prescribes a person Ivermectin, they diagnosed them as a horse?


----------



## linuxares (Sep 7, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Does that mean when a doctor prescribes a person Ivermectin, they diagnosed them as a horse?


yes, a little pony


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 7, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I thought it was cute. Foxi just has to pee on anything he can to stay relevant. ​


What is it with liberals and peeing on things? First the imaginary piss tapes, now I’m accused of giving golden showers. Do you guys want to tell us something? All I shower people with is wisdom, I’m afraid your preferences don’t resonate with me.

All jokes aside, if you follow the Tweet chain, this was originally “reported” in earnest, so no, it didn’t come across as a “joke”. It wasn’t originally intended as a “joke” and it was provided without context or commentary, so all I can go by are the tweets associated with this one.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 8, 2021)

linuxares said:


> yes, a little pony


*Vermin Supreme intensifies*


----------



## notimp (Sep 8, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> This is untrue. Ivermectin (the drug being referred to here) has been used in the treatment of malaria and other parasitic infections, it does not “sterilise” men, so I’m not sure why you’d post that other than to disinform or in jest. The drug is actively trialed for the purposes of malaria control.


You are correct. It does reduce sperm count though. 



> We observed significant reduction in the sperm counts and sperm motility of the patients tested. On the morphology there was significant increase in the number of abnormal sperm cells. This took the forms of two heads, double tails, white (albino) sperms and extraordinarily large heads. It is suspected that the above alterations in the already determined parameters of the patients’ sperm cells could only have occurred as a result of their treatment with ivermectin. However, we could not record any significant change or alteration in the sperm viscosity, sperm volume, and sperm liquefaction time of the patients. We therefore suggest that caution be seriously exercised in the treatment of male onchocerciasis patients with ivermectin to avoid the adverse effects it has on the patients’ sperm functions.


src: https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary...tions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients.pdf

From 2011, so not in response to the current uptake of people using it.

No baby for you!


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 8, 2021)

notimp said:


> You are correct. It does reduce sperm count though.
> 
> src: https://www.scholarsresearchlibrary...tions-of-nigerian-onchocerciasis-patients.pdf
> 
> ...


You didn’t even read the post before responding, so I won’t bother saying much. Millions of people are prescribed Ivermectin for treatment of onchocerciasis and other parasitic infections - in fact, it is *recommended* for that purpose by the CDC, the same CDC that warns about its use against COVID (since COVID is not a parasite and the dosage for animals far exceeds the recommended dosage for humans, making it exceedingly dangerous). You shouldn’t be taking it against COVID, you particularly shouldn’t take doses intended for animals, and you especially shouldn’t try to self-medicate if you’ve tested positive for COVID. Go to a doctor.

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/onchocerciasis/treatment.html

You are literally linking *to the exact same bunk study* from Nigeria I linked to *in the very same post you’re quoting*. How embarrassing. I assure you, the CDC recommendations have not changed in regards to Ivermectin since this was published in 2011, so either medical professionals all around the world have been intentionally chemically castrating patients for the last decade (and none of them noticed!) or, alternatively, nobody’s managed to replicate these doomsday results on a cohort of any relevant size (the Nigerian study had 37 participants - oh golly) with appropriate dosing.

Do you ever read what you’re responding to, or do you just pontificate? Ivermectin is approved for use, just not for use in treatment of COVID-19. It does reduce sperm count and affect sperm quality, but those effects were found to be both *slight* and *temporary* in most studies released since its introduction, particularly ones that were not released by the clown publishing house and peer-reviewed by nobody.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 8, 2021)

Videos with facts to annoy people Some covid related news relevant to the thread that can easily be accessed any time online yet with so many people on the internet so much they somehow miss it.


----------



## Viri (Sep 8, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> To be fair and balanced, mercury supposedly has been doing a similar thing to some bird populations, too... via unintentional pollution, like with the frogs. The meme of "turning the freaking frogs gay!" is a jab at Alex Jones, the defeathered king of the wackadoo birds, who believed it to be part of a pro gay agenda conspiracy and/or military testing of a feminizing chemical weapon. I'm almost certain you know this, but ffs, you had to really disassemble the joke so here we are...
> 
> Middle east gay bomb made after testing it out on frogs, by King Wackadoo


Atrazine can actually fuck up Frogs, chemically castrates and feminizes male frogs. I wouldn't be too surprised if it "turned them gay" too.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 9, 2021)

More exciting Covid info from out glorious leader!


----------



## djpannda (Sep 9, 2021)

Lol not a well trusted research facility but the headline made me chuckle 

*Ivermectin causes sterilization in 85 percent of men, study finds*


----------



## plasturion (Sep 9, 2021)

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/


----------



## RandomUser (Sep 9, 2021)

linuxares said:


> yes, a little pony


No, you're thinking too big. More like miniature horse or dwarf horse.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 9, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> No, you're thinking too big. More like miniature horse or dwarf horse.


"*White House: 75% of U.S. Adults At Least Partially Vaccinated Against COVID-19" *
Part of me thinks the 25% left are 





but that might upset my Bronies mates


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 9, 2021)

plasturion said:


> https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/


Doesn’t take a FOIA request to know that money is fungible, we already knew that research in the lab was funded by the U.S. from Faucci’s leaked e-mails, but I suppose this gives us a much more detailed look. Waiting for Fauccinocio to deny this one too by once again going “no, but actually yes”.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 9, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Doesn’t take a FOIA request to know that money is fungible, we already knew that research in the lab was funded by the U.S. from Faucci’s leaked e-mails, but I suppose this gives us a much more detailed look. Waiting for Fauccinocio to deny this one too by once again going “no, but actually yes”.


It was always suspect how little the US seemed to condemn the Chinese government when the rest of the world almost immediately homed in on Wuhan as the origin.

Edit: I know Trump called it the Chinese Virus but he never really went any further than that.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 9, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> It was always suspect how little the US seemed to condemn the Chinese government when the rest of the world almost immediately homed in on Wuhan as the origin.


It was even funnier when the Chinese government responded with the age old “no, u”. Nobody wants the credit for this, not that it matters. It *is* valuable research, we know how to combat viruses by studying them, but in the event of poor standards some liability is to be expected. I don’t think we’ll ever know for certain if the lab leak thing has any truth to it, so I’m ambivalent towards the subject.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 9, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> It was even funnier when the Chinese government responded with the age old “no, u”. Nobody wants the credit for this, not that it matters. It *is* valuable research, we know how to combat viruses by studying them, but in the event of poor standards some liability is to be expected. I don’t think we’ll ever know for certain if the lab leak thing has any truth to it, so I’m ambivalent towards the subject.


It will probably come out at some point when all involved parties are long deceased. I just hope a lesson was learned that if you're going to fund globally dangerous research then maybe think carefully about where you outsource it to.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 9, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> It will probably come out at some point when all involved parties are long deceased. I just hope a lesson was learned that if you're going to fund globally dangerous research then maybe think carefully about where you outsource it to.


Are you saying that Chinese health and safety standards are below OSHA requirements?


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 9, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Are you saying that Chinese health and safety standards are below OSHA requirements?
> 
> View attachment 275318


Never. I'm also not saying that the Wuhan Institute of Virology has had any safety violations dating back to 2018.


----------



## RandomUser (Sep 9, 2021)

djpannda said:


> "*White House: 75% of U.S. Adults At Least Partially Vaccinated Against COVID-19" *
> Part of me thinks the 25% left are
> 
> 
> ...


For some reason the image did not load. So taking a look at the link provided, it showed "My_Little_Pony_Theme_Song.png" So naturally I googled "My_Little_Pony_Theme_Song" and found out that it is a cartoon. Wow, such show exist. This triggered my memory of seeing toys like these back in the days. In which case I might be beat, either that I just realized that @linuxares comment may have wooshed me. If that the case linuxares, please ignore my previous comment.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 9, 2021)

RandomUser said:


> For some reason the image did not load. So taking a look at the link provided, it showed "My_Little_Pony_Theme_Song.png" So naturally I googled "My_Little_Pony_Theme_Song" and found out that it is a cartoon. Wow, such show exist. This triggered my memory of seeing toys like these back in the days. In which case I might be beat, either that I just realized that @linuxares comment may have wooshed me. If that the case linuxares, please ignore my previous comment.


I wooshed you hard my dude x3


----------



## notimp (Sep 9, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> You didn’t even read the post before responding, so I won’t bother saying much. Millions of people are prescribed Ivermectin for treatment of onchocerciasis and other parasitic infections - in fact, it is *recommended* for that purpose by the CDC, the same CDC that warns about its use against COVID (since COVID is not a parasite and the dosage for animals far exceeds the recommended dosage for humans, making it exceedingly dangerous). You shouldn’t be taking it against COVID, you particularly shouldn’t take doses intended for animals, and you especially shouldn’t try to self-medicate if you’ve tested positive for COVID. Go to a doctor.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/onchocerciasis/treatment.html
> 
> ...


The ideology is strong in you. Yet you are still wrong on all accounts.

You dont even notice, that you agree with the studies results (temporary was never questioned, and for "slight" - you provide no source -), the article was peer reviewed -


> Archives of Applied Science Research is a *peer-reviewed, open-access journal* that aims to publish a vast spectrum of research applications from Natural sciences, Social sciences, and Humanities by including research applications of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Sociology, Philosophy, Psychology, and Linguistics that ...
> 
> *Archives of Applied Science Research (ISSN: 0975-508X)*


and you actively denounced it because its coming from Nigeria, yet at the same time acknowledge, that it is cleared as an anti malaria drug.

Also the study screened 384 patients and then selected 37, because the sperm counts in all others was deemed too low to be considered normal to begin with.

The study never claimed to be "the final be all and and all" because thats not how science operates, but it strongly suggested further research and caution when prescribing the drug.

Also - if the drug has been cleared by the CDC says nothing about potential sideeffects of a drug, as with most treatments, first and foremost you prioritize the life of a patient and only then consider potential sideeffects.

So what are you pulling here.

I acknowledge, that you already got down to the source yourself, after criticising the tweet.

And I would like to see studies, that indicate that the problem is "slight" and "reveresable".

edit: Journal is dodgy. Snopes has a writeup (it charged high admission fees), had typos on the website and got its twitter account revoked (presumably for advertising its practices?):
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ivermectin-sterility-in-men/

My bad.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 9, 2021)

notimp said:


> edit: Journal is dodgy. Snopes has a writeup (it charged high admission fees), had typos on the website and got its twitter account revoked (presumably for advertising its practices?):
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ivermectin-sterility-in-men/
> 
> My bad.


Oh yeah? No kidding. Who would’ve thunk.


----------



## notimp (Sep 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> Oh yeah? No kidding. Who would’ve thunk.


Snopes after trying to contact the journal, getting no response, then looking into its website, and digging up their practice to sell article space for "handling fees", then looking into the article and finding grammatical errors, that a lecturer would have found, and no section in regards to "exclusionary" factors (so did the participends get other medications, ...) which is important for scholars in trying to replicate the study.

But apparently not me. 

("Fake" journals with a businessmodel to sell article space, so doctors could brag about their publication history - were quite a thing for a while, and still are to some extent. Although you now got blacklists, for some of them. Issue is, that even a "good study" can end up in one of these, because they are "pushing their services" to people actively, but in this case (with adverse/exclusionary factors missing), and grammatical errors present, it indicates, that in the end it was not peer reviewed (even though the journal said it would be). and therefore > study bad/questionable.))


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 10, 2021)

notimp said:


> Snopes after trying to contact the journal, getting no response, then looking into its website, and digging up their practice to sell article space for "handling fees", then looking into the article and finding grammatical errors, that a lecturer would have found, and no section in regards to "exclusionary" factors (so did the participends get other medications, ...) which is important for scholars in trying to replicate the study.
> 
> But apparently not me.
> 
> ("Fake" journals with a businessmodel to sell article space, so doctors could brag about their publication history - were quite a thing for a while, and still are to some extent. Although you now got blacklists, for some of them. Issue is, that even a "good study" can end up in one of these, because they are "pushing their services" to people actively, but in this case (with adverse/exclusionary factors missing), and grammatical errors present, it indicates, that in the end it was not peer reviewed (even though the journal said it would be). and therefore > study bad/questionable.))


The study reads like it was written by a child, its sample size is not representative (N=37 ain’t shit), the numbers themselves are highly suspect (they’ve invited 350-odd individuals and only *10%* of that group had “optimal sperm parameters” prior to treatment? Okay), it’s published by the finest researchers Cirque du Soleil had to offer, it’s indeed riddled with spelling errors, nobody in the last 10 years even bothered trying to replicate its findings and, as your own link states, infertility is not a known side effect of Ivermectin and as such isn’t listed as one - side effects must be mentioned on labels and patients must be informed about them in order to give informed consent for therapy. I’m pretty sure that “sterility in 85% of cases” would be pretty high on the list in regards to consent, considering alternative therapies exist. I’m not going to give it the benefit of the doubt just because “good studies might show up in bad journals”, this is a bad study even if it showed up in a good journal, and you don’t need Snopes to see it, you can just read the thing. Still, respect for taking it on the chin. If you care to scroll up a little further I linked to a study where it was tested on rats - that one’s on Pubmed and had significantly more realistic findings, although should still be taken with a pinch of salt since they bombarded the damn things with Ivermectin and another “buffer” drug. There’s also a recent study of Ivermectin side effects in humans who suffer from COVID, but those findings are especially suspect because *COVID itself* leads to the deterioration of sperm quality/quantity, so the results mean nothing.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 10, 2021)

Anti-vaxxer armageddon is here.  Biden to require all businesses with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccinations or weekly testing: https://www.businessinsider.com/bid...over-100-employees-to-mandate-vaccines-2021-9

Most employers are likely to mandate vaccines, as weekly testing would be a PITA logistically for large businesses.  All government employees and contractors will also be required to get vaccinated.


----------



## notimp (Sep 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> The study reads like it was written by a child, its sample size is not representative (N=37 ain’t shit), the numbers themselves are highly suspect (they’ve invited 350-odd individuals and only *10%* of that group had “optimal sperm parameters” prior to treatment? Okay), it’s published by the finest researchers Cirque du Soleil had to offer,


They tried to go for a bigger sample size, and only got a small one - happens. Suspiciously small for the size they originally tested (came to my mind as well), but thought it was worthwhile to say that they originally tested around 500, instead of you just focusing down on 37 - because it fits your argument. Not optimal sperm parameters, but normal ones. Which - if they f.e. would work in a malaria ward - could be somewhat rationally explained (I'm no expert) perhaps.  But agree that the 37 in the end are far from statistically representative - but as studies go, sometimes you take what you can get. Reading as if written by a child can be explained by the authors being foreigners, they use the terms of the trade though, so I'm inclined to believe, that you are embelishing your fact finding mojo here, same as with names -- sometimes the best studies come from where people having an interest in finding that information. So if Ivermectin is largely used at scale in developing countries, you wont find those studies from reknown institutions...

So agree on 37 actually was a red flag. But not one fit to denounce the entire thing, and that pretty much you go to town trying to say how prolific you are on all other points, ... 

The actual red lines, where you probably should discard the findings are those, that the study apparently wasnt peer reviewed (otherwise reviewers would have corrected grammatical errors), and that the "journal" sold publishing space for a high service charge, and now apparently has vanished from twitter, where it was banned, and Snopes not being able to contact the study authors.

You dont dismiss a study, just because it only had 37 participants willing to jerk off into a cup. You just acknowledge, that it is not statistically representative. But you might dismiss the study based on all the other findings, hinting at "issues" with scientific method. (Of which not being representative is one - could still have been valid though, but then there are the other issues with it.)


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 10, 2021)

notimp said:


> They tried to go for a bigger sample size, and only got a small one - happens. Suspiciously small for the size they originally tested (came to my mind as well), but thought it was worthwhile to say that they originally tested around 500, instead of you just focusing down on 37 - because it fits your argument. *Not optimal sperm parameters, but normal ones. Which - if they f.e. would work in a malaria ward - could be somewhat rationally explained (I'm no expert) perhaps. * But agree that the 37 in the end are far from statistically representative - but as studies go, sometimes you take what you can get. Reading as if written by a child can be explained by the authors being foreigners, they use the terms of the trade though, so I'm inclined to believe, that you are embelishing your fact finding mojo here, same as with names -- sometimes the best studies come from where people having an interest in finding that information. So if Ivermectin is largely used at scale in developing countries, you wont find those studies from reknown institutions...
> 
> So agree on 37 actually was a red flag. But not one fit to denounce the entire thing, and that pretty much you go to town trying to say how prolific you are on all other points, ...
> 
> ...


This study doesn’t concern malaria, it concerns river blindness, caused by Onchocerca Volvulus infection. It’s a parasite that affects 46k+ patients annually, primarily in Africa. It’s also treated with ivermectin by default. If all they could find was 350-odd participants, out of which only 37 had “normal” sperm counts and ultimately qualified, the study is bunk. Moreover, you’re not checking whether the patient has normal sperm count or not, you’re checking whether ivermectin has any effect on it by comparing samples pre and post treatment - you don’t need participants with “perfect” sperm counts for that. The methodology is stupid and the results are suspect. It’s obvious if you actually read it, which you didn’t, considering you don’t know what it was about. Please don’t tell me how to judge a study, between the two of us only one person got tricked, and it wasn’t me.


----------



## notimp (Sep 10, 2021)

There we go, now we have a (somewhat) complete picture.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 10, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Anti-vaxxer armageddon is here.  Biden to require all businesses with more than 100 employees to mandate vaccinations or weekly testing: https://www.businessinsider.com/bid...over-100-employees-to-mandate-vaccines-2021-9
> 
> Most employers are likely to mandate vaccines, as weekly testing would be a PITA logistically for large businesses.  All government employees and contractors will also be required to get vaccinated.


Ah yes, this will certainly not cause any infighting. People will finally comply and get 15 thousand experimental shots shoved up their ass no problem. Let's all obey our glorious red government!

I find it funny that people are worried about the unvaccinated, which if the vaccine worked, those who took the shot should have nothing to worry about. It doesn't matter how many are unvaccinated if you are vaccinated, you're protected. Unless most of the vaccine's are shit and don't work? ......Nah. Same goes for natural immunity as well since if you had the virus and got over it you'd have the antibodies to fight it if you try to get the virus again.

I mean sure, humanity as a whole survived Ebola, swine flu, leprosy, mumps, polio, and even way back when with the black plague without the advancement of modern medicines. But the wuhan coronavirus is 10000000000000000000000 times worse than any of them. I mean, it damn near wiped out the human race, right? Just take the experimental jabs, give our government officials rim jobs of compliance, and shut yo mouth! Thank god we got that previous nazi tyrant out of office so we could get this new totally not tyrant and totally not power hungry administration in to force- I mean, kindly direct us what to do.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Ah yes, this will certainly not cause any infighting. People will finally comply and get 15 thousand experimental shots shoved up their ass no problem. Let's all obey our glorious red government!
> 
> I find it funny that people are worried about the unvaccinated, which if the vaccine worked, those who took the shot should have nothing to worry about. It doesn't matter how many are unvaccinated if you are vaccinated, you're protected. Unless most of the vaccine's are shit and don't work? ......Nah. Same goes for natural immunity as well since if you had the virus and got over it you'd have the antibodies to fight it if you try to get the virus again.
> 
> I mean sure, humanity as a whole survived Ebola, swine flu, leprosy, mumps, polio, and even way back when with the black plague without the advancement of modern medicines. But the wuhan coronavirus is 10000000000000000000000 times worse than any of them. I mean, it damn near wiped out the human race, right? Just take the experimental jabs, give our government officials rim jobs of compliance, and shut yo mouth!


1. It’s not experimental, it’s a product freely available on the market that passed clinical trials at this stage and is fully approved, not just approved due to emergency.
2. The Black Plague killed 25 million people, give or take. Would be nice if they had vaccines back then.
3. Leprosy is not very contagious, it doesn’t spread by touch for instance. It’s also not particularly dangerous thanks to modern medicine.
4. Polio has been, for the most part, eradicated with the help of vaccines. Without vaccinations we would still have Iron Lungs in every hospital.
5. Ebola case fatality used to be 90%, now it’s 25%, thanks to modern medicine.
6. Swine flu, much like other flus, was overcome thanks to vaccination programs and strict immigration control - would’ve worked for COVID as well if restrictions were implemented sooner. Sadly, the Chinese government wasn’t very truthful in regards to the risks early in, and now we’re here.

Seems to me that the current approach worked fine in the past. Regarding the new recommendations, I doubt that they can be signed into law in the first place, but we’ll see.


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 10, 2021)

Well, I guess he is submitting test weekly.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> 1. It’s not experimental, it’s a product freely available on the market that passed clinical trials at this stage and is fully approved, not just approved due to emergency.
> 2. The Black Plague killed 25 million people, give or take. Would be nice if they had vaccines back then.
> 3. Leprosy is not very contagious, it doesn’t spread by touch for instance. It’s also not particularly dangerous thanks to modern medicine.
> 4. Polio has been, for the most part, eradicated with the help of vaccines. Without vaccinations we would still have Iron Lungs in every hospital.
> ...


Typing out facts and logic here. But unfortunately this will go over certain people's heads.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> 1. It’s not experimental, it’s a product freely available on the market that passed clinical trials at this stage and is fully approved, not just approved due to emergency.
> 2. The Black Plague killed 25 million people, give or take. Would be nice if they had vaccines back then.
> 3. Leprosy is not very contagious, it doesn’t spread by touch for instance. It’s also not particularly dangerous thanks to modern medicine.
> 4. Polio has been, for the most part, eradicated with the help of vaccines. Without vaccinations we would still have Iron Lungs in every hospital.
> ...



1.  It actually is still quite experimental since it was rushed into development then rushed out for the public to take. I don't encourage or discourage anyone to take the vaccine, I just advocate for choice and facts, and the fact is the vaccine is still experimental whether people want to admit that or not.
2. I know that, that's why I said humanity as a whole. We've recovered the population of losses quite nicely since then.
3. Maybe not, but way back when it was a real problem and people cast out because of it, way way back in the olden days.
4. Yes, but for a time, before vaccines, it was a problem people just had to deal with.
5. Same point at before. Evolution in medicine is good, I was just using these examples as how humanity had to deal with diseases since it's conception, and while dealing with them and finding cures has been tough, we've dealt with it and found cures or ways to mitigate it. Covid isn't a special case nor the ultimate disease to end all diseases as people act like it is. Compare to many diseases, it's just average and we're at the point that humans can take it.
6. Same as 5 I guess, but you're right in immigration surges, like how the current administration is flying illegals all across the country which is causing new coronavirus outbreaks to occur since they're not only unvaccinated with covid but with the possibility of a myriad of other diseases, but that's another topic.

Like I said, take or not, it's your choice, though I also do find it odd that people scream "my body, my choice" for abortions but want to force people to take the medicine they think is good for them experimental or not, even when the reason is because they don't want to get infected it's still not their body their talking about anymore and their vaccinations should protect them regardless. Could people want it both ways? Nah, that's probably just a conspiracy theory.


----------



## ut2k4master (Sep 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> 1.  It actually is still quite experimental since it was rushed into development then rushed out for the public to take. I don't encourage or discourage anyone to take the vaccine, I just advocate for choice and facts, and the fact is the vaccine is still experimental whether people want to admit that or not.
> 2. I know that, that's why I said humanity as a whole. We've recovered the population of losses quite nicely since then.
> 3. Maybe not, but way back when it was a real problem and people cast out because of it, way way back in the olden days.
> 4. Yes, but for a time, before vaccines, it was a problem people just had to deal with.
> ...



its not experimental, stop willfully ignoring facts.
abortions dont risk the lives of the people around you


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 10, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> its not experimental, stop willfully ignoring facts.
> abortions dont risk the lives of the people around you


It is experimental,* you *stop ignoring the facts.
Abortion affects the live that could've been but snuffed out by selfishness. I am aware that there are a few exceptions, rape and/or incest, but most of the time it's due to the incompetence of the person to take protection and not wanting to deal with the consequences.


----------



## ut2k4master (Sep 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> It is experimental,* you *stop ignoring the facts.
> Abortion affects the live that could've been but snuffed out by selfishness. I am aware that there are a few exceptions, rape and/or incest, but most of the time it's due to the incompetence of the person to take protection and not wanting to deal with the consequences.


you saying it doesnt make it fact. the vaccines have been tested and fully approved, nothing "experimental" about it.
so you value one undeveloped life more than hundreds of people around you?


----------



## WG481 (Sep 10, 2021)

How on earth did a vaccine thread come to abortions?



ut2k4master said:


> you saying it doesnt make it fact. the vaccines have been tested and fully approved, nothing "experimental" about it.
> so you value one undeveloped life more than hundreds of people around you?


You are right. I have had the vaccine in my bloodstream for forever and I haven't turned into a zombie, demon, or anything else.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 10, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> you saying it doesnt make it fact. the vaccines have been tested and fully approved, nothing "experimental" about it.
> so you value one undeveloped life more than hundreds of people around you?


It's experimental. The end. It was rushed in development then rushed out to quell people's fears which it didn't work otherwise we wouldn't be fighting about it.
I value both lives, those who are still in the womb and out. I don't see how abortion can "save" lives if that's what you're implying.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



WG481 said:


> How on earth did a vaccine thread come to abortions?
> 
> 
> You are right. I have had the vaccine in my bloodstream for forever and I haven't turned into a zombie, demon, or anything else.


Well good for you. I never said anything about turning into any of those things, I just say it's up to the person if they want to be wary or not.


----------



## WG481 (Sep 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> It's experimental. The end. It was rushed in development then rushed out to quell people's fears which it didn't work otherwise we wouldn't be fighting about it.
> I value both lives, those who are still in the womb and out. I don't see how abortion can "save" lives if that's what you're implying.


Dude, uneducated. It wasn't rushed out, medical tech has just advanced.

It can save a life because some people have complications so that if they birth the baby they die. Again, do your research (and not on Fox News.)


----------



## ut2k4master (Sep 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> It's experimental. The end. It was rushed in development then rushed out to quell people's fears which it didn't work otherwise we wouldn't be fighting about it.
> I value both lives, those who are still in the womb and out. I don't see how abortion can "save" lives if that's what you're implying.



not "the end". they werent rushed out, they were tested like every other vaccine, in bigger numbers even. big funding certainly helped speed up the process. those types of viruses arent unknown, scientists know where to start looking for vaccines. its not some kind of complete guess work like youd like to frame it.
an abortion can save the lives of the parents mentally, physically and financially


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 10, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Dude, uneducated. It wasn't rushed out, medical tech has just advanced.
> 
> It can save a life because some people have complications so that if they birth the baby they die. Again, do your research (and not on Fox News.)


Dude, if you rush something out through fast tests and don't want to see the long term effects, it's still experimental. We have advance technology, but it's not that quite advance as most people would like to believe. We are still advancing, but that doesn't mean we can rush out shit because we're more advanced than we were 100 years ago so we know everything about everything, things still need time and observation.
And that is another exception of abortion you mentioned, but people getting abortions for the sake of it is wrong. More often than not, the exceptions listed are a minority and the majority is women getting abortions just because they can. I do my research, but I find it funny in a forum of computer geeks with access to the interwebs 24/7 and it's incredible wealth of information still act this stubborn and dumb on some topics.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ut2k4master said:


> not "the end". they werent rushed out, they were tested like every other vaccine, in bigger numbers even. big funding certainly helped speed up the process. those types of viruses arent unknown, scientists know where to start looking for vaccines. its not some kind of complete guess work like youd like to frame it.
> an abortion can save the lives of the parents mentally, physically and financially


It is rushed out, the end, and frankly, I'm done talking about this with you since it's not going anywhere productive. If you don't want to believe it's still not experimental, fine, that's on you. I'll be getting back to reality.
And what you listed on abortion reasons is pretty damn selfish, and not the exception. Don't wanna baby? Then you better have protection up the ass. You have no one to blame but yourself if a baby comes in because you were careless. The least you can do is give birth and give it for adoption then continue to live your life as a piece of shit while the baby has a chance to live it's own life without you.


----------



## ut2k4master (Sep 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I'll be getting back to reality.


you should. youre stuck in some kind of "reality" you made up yourself


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 10, 2021)

Whether you believe the vaccines are experimental or not depends on your personal definition of experimental. In any case, it's hard to argue that their long term effects are well understood. In theory maybe, but you have to wait "long term" to gather the actual data. There is, however, plenty of data that it's better to get vaccinated than not when it comes to positive outcomes of Covid infection. It's also possible to have positive outcomes without being vaccinated but that is a much bigger gamble. Also, people seem to love bringing up side effects of vaccines but how do you know there are no long term effects of asymptomatic Covid infection that would've been mitigated by vaccine?


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 10, 2021)

ut2k4master said:


> you should. youre stuck in some kind of "reality" you made up yourself


Look who's talking.


----------



## ut2k4master (Sep 10, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Look who's talking.


"no you!1!"


----------



## linuxares (Sep 10, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Whether you believe the vaccines are experimental or not depends on your personal definition of experimental. In any case, it's hard to argue that their long term effects are well understood. In theory maybe, but you have to wait "long term" to gather the actual data. There is, however, plenty of data that it's better to get vaccinated than not when it comes to positive outcomes of Covid infection. It's also possible to have positive outcomes without being vaccinated but that is a much bigger gamble. Also, people seem to love bringing up side effects of vaccines but how do you know there are no long term effects of asymptomatic Covid infection that would've been mitigated by vaccine?


But we been using mRNA since the 90s... it's kind of long term no?


----------



## djpannda (Sep 10, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Whether you believe the vaccines are experimental or not


its not a matter of Believing or not ... it is no longer e*xperimental/Emergency.* Here is the Link where *the FDA Approved it *
*FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine*
as for the long term effects, Testing usually provides a Good Outlook on effects MRNA ( which is low/non)
 but by that same token, we don't _*Definitely *_ dont know the long term effect of the COVID Virus have on our systems


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 10, 2021)

There’s something to be said about the speed at which the vaccines have been developed and put on the market, however you have to consider the sample size. The reason why controlled trials take forever is because they’re very small and stretched apart. Now more than half of the world got the jab - young people, old people, white, black, thin, obese, men, women - you have a huge group of patients with a variety of different characteristics doing just fine. I personally find that a satisfactory test run.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> There’s something to be said about the speed at which the vaccines have been developed and put on the market, however you have to consider the sample size. The reason why controlled trials take forever is because they’re very small and stretched apart. Now more than half of the world got the jab - young people, old people, white, black, thin, obese, men, women - you have a huge group of patients with a variety of different characteristics doing just fine. I personally find that a satisfactory test run.


lol This is the largest Test sample in History bout 2-3 billion people so far.. I would say that should be a sufficient sample.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 10, 2021)

djpannda said:


> lol This is the largest Test sample in History bout 2-3 billion people so far.. I would say that should be a sufficient sample.


3.27 billion had at least one dose, 2.3 billion are fully vaccinated, so technically you’re dealing with 5.6 billion individual jabs (2.3x2). As it turns out, we didn’t go extinct as a result.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> we didn’t go extinct as a result.


"We didn't go extinct" ....YET!!!! There still time for the Virus to Mutate into Death itself..


----------



## WG481 (Sep 10, 2021)

linuxares said:


> But we been using mRNA since the 90s... it's kind of long term no?


Not to mention the amount of research and development that has gone into it. I trust mRNA more than I trust literally any other form of vaccination.



For those of you looking into a horse dewormer, literally go to a mental institution. They provide no help, and can cause unintended side effects, since well, it's made for a 840 pound animal.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



djpannda said:


> "We didn't go extinct" ....YET!!!! There still time for the Virus to Mutate into Death itself..


If the virus mutates one more effing time I'm going to (insert generic exaggeration here).


----------



## linuxares (Sep 10, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Not to mention the amount of research and development that has gone into it. I trust mRNA more than I trust literally any other form of vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> For those of you looking into a horse dewormer, literally go to a mental institution. They provide no help, and can cause unintended side effects, since well, it's made for a 840 pound animal.


Well they do help... if you got worms. And a doctor prescribed a HUMAN DOSE and not a bloody horse.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 10, 2021)

WG481 said:


> They provide no help, and can cause unintended side effects, since well, it's made for a 840 pound animal.


"unintended Side Effects" you mean that the Blindness from overdosing and Reports of sterility where not on the box.?


----------



## WG481 (Sep 10, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Well they do help... if you got worms. And a doctor prescribed a HUMAN DOSE and not a bloody horse.


Yeah, but Joe Rogan took Ivermectin for COVID. What an idiot.


djpannda said:


> "unintended Side Effects" you mean that the Blindness from overdosing and Reports of sterility where not on the box.?


More like death but yeah, you've got the point. Taking dewormers for covid won't do anything since COVID is commonly known for not being a worm.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 10, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Yeah, but Joe Rogan took Ivermectin for COVID. What an idiot.
> 
> More like death but yeah, you've got the point. Taking dewormers for covid won't do anything since COVID is commonly known for not being a worm.


Thats where they get you...  secrets that Big Pharm does not want you to know!! lol


----------



## WG481 (Sep 10, 2021)

djpannda said:


> Thats where they get you...  secrets that Big Pharm does not want you to know!! lol


 I Found TEN SECRETS the GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW!!! (Gone Wrong)


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 10, 2021)

WG481 said:


> Yeah, but Joe Rogan took Ivermectin for COVID. What an idiot.
> 
> More like death but yeah, you've got the point. Taking dewormers for covid won't do anything since COVID is commonly known for not being a worm.


I'm sure many of these folks that have "taken" Ivermectin and "recovered" are actually fully vaccinated and are pretty much lying through their teeth and pretend that COVID was nothing and Ivermectin did help.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 10, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> There’s something to be said about the speed at which the vaccines have been developed and put on the market, however you have to consider the sample size. The reason why controlled trials take forever is because they’re very small and stretched apart. Now more than half of the world got the jab - young people, old people, white, black, thin, obese, men, women - you have a huge group of patients with a variety of different characteristics doing just fine. I personally find that a satisfactory test run.


It's satisfactory if all you want to know is the efficacy against Covid and any immediate risks. But again, to get long term effects we have to wait, and it's not obvious how one would even attain such data reliably so it may just be speculative anyway.

Also, can people stop using FDA as some sort of universal standard. Just like your so-called World Series it doesn't mean all that much to the rest of us.


----------



## smf (Sep 10, 2021)

djpannda said:


> we don't _*Definitely *_ dont know the long term effect of the COVID Virus have on our systems



Or the effect of food, drink, computer use, etc.

In 50 years time we will probably know why people get delusional when looking at anti vax/5g etc stuff on the  internet and start believing crazy things like becoming magnetic.

So many people have been vaccinated now that if it does cause long term problems, they will be long term problems that governments will be motivated to solve. While they are no longer motivated to find alternate types of cure for covid.

If it turns out that everyone who has been jabbed is doomed, then I'm not sure I'd want to stick around with all the people who don't want to be vaccinated either.

In the meantime, not dying from covid is pretty good.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 10, 2021)

no seeable long term side effects in testing..period


----------



## assassinz (Sep 11, 2021)




----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 11, 2021)

What would you do if you found out for a fact that the conspiracy theorists were right and you were being lied to?

A. Re-evaluate your entire life
B. Start doing more research in an open minded way from both sides, even if it's just to satisfy your mind that the conspiracy theorists are still wrong 
C. Stay in denial and blame the other party?
D. Shit your pants


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 11, 2021)

assassinz said:


>




Sounds to me like they're trying to prioritize who gets the vaccinations, probably because we still don't have an overwhelming backup of said vaccinations. Or maybe the vaccinating needs to be administered in a specific way, since we have different strains against a backdrop of a myriad of citizens who are some combination of unvaccinated, vaccinated, awaiting a booster, carrier of the Delta variant...

More than likely they're trying to get the virus under control with our own citizens first, rather than just vaccinating everyone left and right and having so much chaos and discord, especially since immigrants are still somewhat of a fight risk (in general) considering they most likely have no concrete place of residence. 

She might not have answered the question, one she might not have been prepared for, so all hate on her for that is (I guess) adequately deserved, but her lack of answer does not discredit the validity of vaccinations thus far. 

I'm kind of glad this covid has caused such a divide that it has. Some of these people really need to be weeded out.


----------



## Deleted member 514389 (Sep 11, 2021)

I'm sure that a "vax" will sooner or later become mandatory...
Even for general things suchas "visiting a shop" or "going to work/school"

Oh man...
Not sure about this one.
(Everyone being vaxed is a good idea, esp, if it drives CVD out... but.. will it work, or will mutants keep forcing as to reapply the vax ?)



ConspiracyFactualist said:


> What would you do if you found out for a fact that the conspiracy theorists were right and you were being lied to?
> 
> A. Re-evaluate your entire life
> B. Start doing more research in an open minded way from both sides, even if it's just to satisfy your mind that the conspiracy theorists are still wrong
> ...


E: Reevaluate your sources of news.
Switch to more objective ones. Not everyone can be a liar.
When in doubt seek out people who can be trusted to "spot" fake news.
=> Find "independent parties"


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 11, 2021)

Mandatory vaccination is not the true aim of governments. They don't actually care about COVID, because the death rate is so low for most of the working, tax paying population.

Instead, they are using this pandemic to force greater control over the citizenry.
Vaccine passports are really just a first step in location tracing. Once they have private business denying service based on personal health choices (get vax'd only if you're at risk), they will expect business to continue this behavior for arbitrary things like whether or not they are dressed the right way. Governments never relinquish control. Never. Ever.

Additionally, saying this vaccine is not experimental is simply a matter of semantics. Vaccines take 12 years to be approved because there can have long term side effects that you won't be able to detect in 2 years. _The sample size doesn't matter._ No one can time travel and determine the concrete risks involved with this vaccine.



assassinz said:


>




Take note how they frame this:
"We are giving businesses the tools they need to protect their work forces."

Are you ever _forced_ to use a tool?
This tool is mandatory.
Biden did not executive order businesses *the ability* to fire someone who refuses the vaccine;
he ordered that businesses _must_ fire them for refusing it.
Government does not relinquish control.




SyphenFreht said:


> Sounds to me like they're trying to prioritize who gets the vaccinations.....
> More than likely they're trying to get the virus under control with our own citizens first.....




Except migrants on the US southern border are being let into the country and given court dates.
They are not being sent back or prevented from contacting the United States population.
So why is vaccination being forced on businesses, while simultaneous allowing non-citizens to flood in unchecked?
Many countries require vaccination for entry at the moment, so why do you discount this reporters question?



> I'm kind of glad this covid has caused such a divide that it has. Some of these people really need to be weeded out.



You've really tipped your hand with this comment.


*“A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad; you are not like us.”    
― St. Antony the Great
*


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 11, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> What would you do if you found out for a fact that the conspiracy theorists were right and you were being lied to?
> 
> A. Re-evaluate your entire life
> B. Start doing more research in an open minded way from both sides, even if it's just to satisfy your mind that the conspiracy theorists are still wrong
> ...


These questions can be thrown back at the conspiracy theorists, "if" they are wrong.


----------



## TR_mahmutpek (Sep 11, 2021)

I got the 4th (2 sinovac + 2 biontech) vaccine 2 days ago and I'm totally fine and I work in a hospital [I'm a medicine student]

Please get your vaccines guys. Its the only way to finish this pandemic.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 11, 2021)

Can't wait to get jabbed  Luckily neither Sinovac nor Sputnik is available in my country so I won't have to worry about shady shit in my vaccine


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Mandatory vaccination is not the true aim of governments. They don't actually care about COVID, because the death rate is so low for most of the working, tax paying population.
> 
> Instead, they are using this pandemic to force greater control over the citizenry.
> Vaccine passports are really just a first step in location tracing. Once they have private business denying service based on personal health choices (get vax'd only if you're at risk), they will expect business to continue this behavior for arbitrary things like whether or not they are dressed the right way. Governments never relinquish control. Never. Ever.
> ...



Couple different sources say that only about 30% of immigrants are not getting the Covid vaccine due to outright refusal, which means that about 70% of them ARE getting the vaccine. According to the article below, the U.S. is still mandating vaccines for some of the more popular viruses, though I believe it's generally assumed the Covid vaccine needs a little more testing before the CDC decides which vaccine is most appropriate to mandate, considering there are (I believe) 3 different types; Pfizer, J&J, and at least one other. So rather than throwing random vaccines at people who have no American based medical history to report from or document, it seems to me maybe a little more information is needed from the immigrants before we start administering something that *could* possibly cause something catastrophic in someone we have no history of. 

https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefuge...-vaccination-immigration-faq.html#newcriteria

Why are businesses being "forced" to... what now? Require testing every week of their employees who are unvaccinated? Um, probably because the virus itself runs rampant in dense environments, and since the government is a little.... "uncomfortable" at the moment *actually* mandating the Covid vaccine, it seems smart to track how the virus is moving throughout those who are unvaccinated. I mean, what kind of government lets rampant diseases eat up the lives of its citizens? Even if the reasoning is horrible, any government that doesn't go to lengths to try and control rampant diseases and protect the lives of its' citizens is a horrible government. 

I tip my hat too. The general public has no problem with division: Republican/Democrat, racist/not racist, sexist/not sexist, so on and so forth. At least when the anti vaxxers start to die out, it'll help remove some of the people who really don't belong in a progressive society.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 11, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> Couple different sources say that only about 30% of immigrants are not getting the Covid vaccine due to outright refusal, which means that about 70% of them ARE getting the vaccine.....



First of all, can you please give a reliable source for this 3/10 immigrant refusal static? 
The only article I found was from the nypost, and they did not list a source. 
I also could not find this statistic on the ICE website, so if you have access to it, please share.

Secondly, you argue that we shouldn't administer shots to people with no US medical history, for their own safety. 
I agree that people are affected differently and should take their own risk assessment. 
If this is the case, why should we mandate a vaccine with no medical history at all? 
Did you know that companies are not liable for problems you incur from these unvetted vaccines? 
If you have received any of these shots, you are the experiment. 
You are the test. 
You won't know the true effect for 10+ years, long after this thread has died. 



> Require testing every week of their employees who are unvaccinated?


Vaccinated people still get and spread COVID. What is your argument, exactly?
What benefit is there in testing unvaccinated but not the vaccinated?
*The goal is clear: social division through government sanction. *



> what kind of government lets rampant diseases eat up the lives of its citizens?



COVID has a very low morality rate. It isn't eating up the lives of citizens. 

Ironically, he government mandated shut downs destroyed more lives than COVID ever could have.
Many small businesses had to close up during this period, and they cannot reopen because they weren't big enough to absorb the hit.
Out of work, live savings were swallowed by a country not allowed to work.
Big corporations, on the other hand, were allowed to stay open and absorb all of the business of these small stores.




> I tip my hat too. The general public has no problem with division: Republican/Democrat, racist/not racist, sexist/not sexist, so on and so forth.
> At least when the anti vaxxers start to die out, it'll help remove some of the people who really don't belong in a progressive society.



Thanks for the hat tip, but the phrase is *"tip your hand".*
The expression refers to poker, where you want to keep the cards in your hand a secret.
Tipping your hand means to reveal your true intentions, which you have done again.

Do you believe in political genocide?
I say live and let live, and you want people to die because they don't agree with you.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> First of all, can you please give a reliable source for this 3/10 immigrant refusal static?
> The only article I found was from the nypost, and they did not list a source.
> I also could not find this statistic on the ICE website, so if you have access to it, please share.
> 
> ...


your "political genocide" gotcha doesn't really work considering that anti-vaxxers aren't really being mass-killed by anyone except themselves. but at least you tried


----------



## Lacius (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Vaccinated people still get and spread COVID.


Vaccinated people are significantly less likely to catch and spread COVID-19.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 11, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Vaccinated people are significantly less likely to catch and spread COVID-19.



Please support this with evidence.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Vaccinated people still get and spread COVID. What is your argument, exactly?


Of course, that means they're INFECTED. The vaccine isn't bullet proof. But it sure makes your chances to survive much much higher. Plus if we're lucky. The virus dies before it can get a hold in the host to spread it, because of the vaccines. This is what a vaccine is for.



elk1007 said:


> COVID has a very low morality rate. It isn't eating up the lives of citizens.


Sure, but long term effects? Also try telling that to the 1.14M dead people of a virus, that could been contained much better if the Chinese government kept it hidden.



elk1007 said:


> ronically, he government mandated shut downs destroyed more lives than COVID ever could have.


You can restart a business. You can't restart a person that have passed.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 11, 2021)

furuhoop said:


> your "political genocide" gotcha doesn't really work considering that anti-vaxxers aren't really being mass-killed by anyone except themselves. but at least you tried



Wishing that people die because they don't believe in mandating brand new vaccines is immoral.
Wishing death on people is immoral. 
Also, unvaccinated are not dying in any significant numbers. It's clear you wish that on them, however.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Please support this with evidence.


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html

There is plenty of evidence that the vaccines are effective at preventing COVID-19 infection. If people are less likely to catch it, they are less likely to spread it.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Wishing that people die because they don't believe in mandating brand new vaccines is immoral.
> Wishing death on people is immoral.
> Also, unvaccinated are not dying in any significant numbers. It's clear you wish that on them, however.


https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely

Literally posted today all over the globe.


----------



## Guggimon (Sep 11, 2021)

I got both shots now, Got my second one 4 days ago Only my arm hurts a little but besides that i felt nothing (Says the guy who got every vac and got it registerd in my vac book) with a stamp and signature


----------



## Lacius (Sep 11, 2021)

Guggimon said:


> I got both shots now, Got my second one 4 days ago Only my arm hurts a little but besides that i felt nothing (Says the guy who got every vac and got it registerd in my vac book) with a stamp and signature


Other than some minor arm pain, I also had no side-effects with either of my vaccine doses.


----------



## Guggimon (Sep 11, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Other than some minor arm pain, I also had no side-effects with either of my vaccine doses.


Same


----------



## linuxares (Sep 11, 2021)

Guggimon said:


> I got both shots now, Got my second one 4 days ago Only my arm hurts a little but besides that i felt nothing (Says the guy who got every vac and got it registerd in my vac book) with a stamp and signature


I got joint pains from the first dos.
The second dos I got joint pains, fever and feeling really sore. But it disappear after like 2-3 days. No biggie since it was all common side effects.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 11, 2021)

Lacius said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/vaccine-benefits.html
> 
> There is plenty of evidence that the vaccines are effective at preventing COVID-19 infection. If people are less likely to catch it, they are less likely to spread it.



A link is not evidence. Please post actual statistics from the abstract. I can't do the research for opposition arguments. You're asking me to dig for proof. Take the time to form an argument.


----------



## Guggimon (Sep 11, 2021)

linuxares said:


> I got joint pains from the first dos.
> The second dos I got joint pains, fever and feeling really sore. But it disappear after like 2-3 days. No biggie since it was all common side effects.


 Hmmm Maybe you felt a little better with your first shot?? I have no idea why you got worst with your seccond one?? Do you got two diffrent vacs??

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



linuxares said:


> I got joint pains from the first dos.
> The second dos I got joint pains, fever and feeling really sore. But it disappear after like 2-3 days. No biggie since it was all common side effects.



I got 2x Pfizer


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 11, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Of course, that means they're INFECTED. The vaccine isn't bullet proof. But it sure makes your chances to survive much much higher. Plus if we're lucky. The virus dies before it can get a hold in the host to spread it, because of the vaccines. This is what a vaccine is for.
> 
> 
> Sure, but long term effects? Also try telling that to the 1.14M dead people of a virus, that could been contained much better if the Chinese government kept it hidden.
> ...



China didn't even want to admit there was a COVID virus. 
They threated the US with war over the blame for COVID. 
How could you believe any Chinese statistics?

I can tell you have never owned a business. No, you cannot just start a business again after it fails. You have to take out loans and invest in operating costs which dissolve upon closure. New York city is a prime example of this; its a ghost town.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> A link is not evidence. Please post actual statistics from the abstract. I can't do the research for opposition arguments. You're asking me to dig for proof. Take the time to form an argument.


Since you wanna be spoon fed


----------



## linuxares (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> China didn't even want to admit there was a COVID virus.
> They threated the US with war over the blame for COVID.
> How could you believe any Chinese statistics?
> 
> I can tell you have never owned a business. No, you cannot just start a business again after it fails. You have to take out loans and invest in operating costs which dissolve upon closure. New York city is a prime example of this; its a ghost town.



I never trust China's numbers. I'm just stating facts from all kind of governments and scientists that say it could been contained if they actually had warned instead of putting the lid on.

Lol, I grew up in two business. My father had one, my mother had a different one.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 11, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Since you wanna be spoon fed


 Source? This looks like it came from a White House page.



> Lol, I grew up in two business. My father had one, my mother had a different one.



Thank you for proving my point. You have never owned a business.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> A link is not evidence. Please post actual statistics from the abstract. I can't do the research for opposition arguments. You're asking me to dig for proof. Take the time to form an argument.


The CDC pages include plenty of links to peer reviewed studies showing the vaccines' effectiveness. It's pretty easy to find the research, but I 100% believe you that you're uninterested in "doing the research." It says a lot more about you than you think that you won't even look at the evidence.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 11, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Source? This looks like it came from a White House page.


Because it is?
Read their sources. I'm to lazy to read them for you.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 11, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Because it is?
> Read their sources. I'm to lazy to read them for you.


It looks like @elk1007 argues against medical science by pretending like the evidence doesn't exist.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 11, 2021)

linuxares said:


> You can restart a business. You can't restart a person that have passed.


Please stop using the "think of the children!" type of shield and argument of saving lives as if you and people like you actually care about the health and well being of all people, because from what I've seen, especially those you don't agree with, you don't care about human lives really. You can pretend to and think you do, but beneath it all, deep in your core, you don't.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 11, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Please stop using the "think of the children!" type of shield and argument of saving lives as if you and people like you actually care about the health and well being of all people, because from what I've seen, especially those you don't agree with, you don't care about human lives really. You can pretend to and think you do, but beneath it all, deep in your core, you don't.


The only people here who have given any indication that they don't care about human lives are anti-maskers and anti-vaxers.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 11, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Please stop using the "think of the children!" type of shield and argument of saving lives as if you and people like you actually care about the health and well being of all people, because from what I've seen, especially those you don't agree with, you don't care about human lives really. You can pretend to and think you do, but beneath it all, deep in your core, you don't.


So you speak for me now? You are a silly person since I ask people to take the vaccine to SAVE people.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The CDC pages include plenty of links to peer reviewed studies showing the vaccines' effectiveness. It's pretty easy to find the research, but I 100% believe you that you're *uninterested in "doing the research.*" It says a lot more about you than you think that you won't even look at the evidence.


It's the same old, same old, eh? "Not look at the evidence" is basically these folks' only thing to do.

Linux posts a statistic from the White House. Elk dismisses it immediately because it's from the White House.
Lacius posts a link top a site where it has a whole bunch of research, studies, and data that is a lot more accurate and cites plenty from top-class researchers. Elk dismisses it because it's "just a link".
I'd bet that even if you post link, statistics, and research from even the World Health Organization (WHO), they'd still make an excuse.

It's been proven time and time again, that the vaccines do help A LOT in combating against the virus. Many professional and frontline doctors and nurses from hospitals all over say that most deaths of COVID-19 were from unvaccinated individuals compared to those that were vaccinated. As stated so many times in this thread, the vaccine is there to not only protect, but also greatly lowers the chances of getting the worst of COVID-19. We all know that vaccinated people can still spread and get infected, the same can be said of any vaccine, really. The spread and infection won't be as bad as someone who is unvaccinated. The vaccine is still an extremely great layer of protection to protect oneself and the more people take it, the slower the spread the virus can go. We already have plenty of cases where places that have high vaccination rates also have less infection and death rates compared to places that have lower vaccination rates.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> So you speak for me now? You are a silly person since I ask people to take the vaccine to SAVE people.





> Because it is?
> Read their sources. I'm to lazy to read them for you.



Mandate is not asking. That's imposition by force.
The white house is not a reputable source for anything. The White House is a political wing of government and is directly influenced by the narrative of the administration. Trump era arguments would not be cogent or even authoritative during his administration for the same reason.



> The CDC pages include plenty of links to peer reviewed studies showing the vaccines' effectiveness. It's pretty easy to find the research, but I 100% believe you that you're uninterested in "doing the research." It says a lot more about you than you think that you won't even look at the evidence.



_Telling me that the research is easy to find is asinine; if it's easy to find, then directly link studies that support your argument._
No one should have to go fishing to provide validity for opposing arguments.



> Please stop using the "think of the children!" type of shield and argument of saving lives as if you and people like you actually care about the health and well being of all people, because from what I've seen, especially those you don't agree with, you don't care about human lives really. You can pretend to and think you do, but beneath it all, deep in your core, you don't.



It's really a case of confession through projection.
Telling people they care about them, and then wishing they would die for ideological reasons.
In truth, people like this only want to impose their will on other people. Since they are unable to do so physically, they support government violence against their political adversaries.

It's a true sickness that has overtaken the nation. We are no longer able to discuss politics in the US without someone 'othering' their opposition. Reminds me of 1984 in a lot ways.


War is Peace

Freedom is Slavery

Ignorance is Strength





LinkmstrYT said:


> It's the same old, same old, eh? "Not look at the evidence" is basically these folks' only thing to do.
> 
> Linux posts a statistic from the White House. Elk dismisses it immediately because it's from the White House.
> Lacius posts a link top a site where it has a whole bunch of research, studies, and data that is a lot more accurate and cites plenty from top-class researchers. Elk dismisses it because it's "just a link".
> ...



Do you support vaccine mandates for individuals who developed natural immunity to COVID?


----------



## linuxares (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> The white house is not a reputable source for anything. The White House is a political wing of government and is directly influenced by the narrative of the administration. Trump era arguments would not be cogent or even authoritative during his administration for the same reason.


Not a reputable source? Are you kidding? It's probably one of the best sources for the US.

You sadly sound like a QAnon. All proper sources that back my claims up you will say "IT'S FAKE NEWS!" so it's a time waste talking or arguing with you.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Mandate is not asking. That's imposition by force.
> The white house is not a reputable source for anything. The White House is a political wing of government and is directly influenced by the narrative of the administration. Trump era arguments would not be cogent or even authoritative during his administration for the same reason.
> 
> 
> ...


I've posted direct links to sources throughout this thread. Forgive me if I don't feel like holding every anti-vaxer's hand everytime they pretend there isn't overwhelming medical evidence and consensus that the vaccines work.

When the conversation goes from "here's why we should/shouldn't have mandates" to utterly disprovable statements like "vaccines aren't effective," I lose interest. It's like arguing with someone who foolishly believes the Earth is flat despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Also, make sure you quote or tag me properly on the future. I almost didn't see your message.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> First of all, can you please give a reliable source for this 3/10 immigrant refusal static?
> The only article I found was from the nypost, and they did not list a source.
> I also could not find this statistic on the ICE website, so if you have access to it, please share.



https://www.ice.gov/coronavirus#detStat


https://www.axios.com/ice-immigrants-covid-vaccine-ee9406fe-7d83-4dce-b5be-c158e0d39f81.html


https://nypost.com/2021/07/15/30-percent-of-migrants-in-border-facilities-refused-covid-shot-report/


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ps...-immigrants-remain-unvaccinated-thats-correct

We may have the same NYpost article. The ICE website also does not specifically state the 30%, however it has solid numbers should you decide to check the math. I'm really hoping you spy the Fox News article.








elk1007 said:


> Secondly, you argue that we shouldn't administer shots to people with no US medical history, for their own safety.
> I agree that people are affected differently and should take their own risk assessment.
> If this is the case, why should we mandate a vaccine with no medical history at all?
> Did you know that companies are not liable for problems you incur from these unvetted vaccines?



Last I heard the U.S. government still has yet to push Covid vaccine mandates. They've pushed mask mandates, but unless I've missed something only companies, the private sector, are pushing mask mandates and weekly viral testing. So, maybe complain about that instead? 



elk1007 said:


> If you have received any of these shots, you are the experiment.
> You are the test.
> You won't know the true effect for 10+ years, long after this thread has died.



You're absolutely right. So far, though, I'm vaccinated and... I'm doing pretty good. I also got all my other vaccines too. Haven't mutated or been violently tracked either. 



elk1007 said:


> Vaccinated people still get and spread COVID. What is your argument, exactly?What benefit is there in testing unvaccinated but not the vaccinated?



God you're smart. You must be thinking the Covid vaccine is like the polio vaccine. You come across as someone who would refuse the polio vaccine and then get polio, and then blame science again. I hope I'm just reading what you've written wrong. 



elk1007 said:


> *The goal is clear: social division through government sanction.*



Uh huh. The Covid testing and mask mandates are the way to go for social division. Not civil rights, education, economy political affiliation, stuff like that. The government is using masks to divide us. 



elk1007 said:


> COVID has a very low morality rate. It isn't eating up the lives of citizens.



You got that from Wikipedia, didn't you? No, but really. Any, every virus that has run rampant over the history of mankind has had government intervention at some point. If they didn't, we'd probably still have Polio. Or the Bubonic plague. 



elk1007 said:


> Ironically, he government mandated shut downs destroyed more lives than COVID ever could have.
> Many small businesses had to close up during this period, and they cannot reopen because they weren't big enough to absorb the hit.
> Out of work, live savings were swallowed by a country not allowed to work.
> Big corporations, on the other hand, were allowed to stay open and absorb all of the business of these small stores.



Yes, because big businesses have politicians in their pockets and vice versa. That's why some companies still have monopolies, which are technically outlawed. That's an unfortunate side effect, but not necessarily derived because of. Small businesses couldn't survive because of larger corporations providing convenience of things like delivery during the shutdown, something mom n pops style businesses couldn't compete with. Maybe instead of blaming the government, you should look at companies like Amazon that carve themselves such an edge that they freely dominate thousands of other start ups. Why didn't Amazon donate to keep these businesses open would be a better question to ask in the face of closing businesses during the pandemic. 



elk1007 said:


> Thanks for the hat tip, but the phrase is *"tip your hand".*
> The expression refers to poker, where you want to keep the cards in your hand a secret.
> Tipping your hand means to reveal your true intentions, which you have done again.



Thanks for that. Despite knowing what the actual quote referred to (it's actually part of my job to know stuff like), I was going in a different, more condescending direction. As far as showing my true intentions? I've never tried to hide my intentions. I think I'm pretty clear: hypocrisy is annoying, and some people just aren't fit to live in a progressive society. Anything else you think I'm hiding?



elk1007 said:


> Do you believe in political genocide?
> I say live and let live, and you want people to die because they don't agree with you.



Actually you're putting way too much into the effort I may or may not have in wanting people to actively die. I really don't care who lives or dies outside of my loved ones; at the end of the day, it's ultimately your choice whether you want to contribute to a better society or to just die off at the back of the pack. But I'll make sure my kids and loved ones get vaccinated and stay safe; if you and yours die off before you've really experienced the majority of your life, so be it. 

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. I literally can't wait for your response.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Not a reputable source? Are you kidding? It's probably one of the best sources for the US.
> 
> You sadly sound like a QAnon. All proper sources that back my claims up you will say "IT'S FAKE NEWS!" so it's a time waste talking or arguing with you.



Do you even live in the US?
Do you know what propaganda is? 

Again, the White House is a _political arm of the government_.
They have a narrative to push, and will do so regardless of the hard reality. 
*This happens for both parties in the US. It isn't bipartisan behavior. *

Calling me QAnon is simply a red herring. 
I never mentioned this and you're bringing it up to discredit unrelated arguments that you cannot rebut.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 12, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The only people here who have given any indication that they don't care about human lives are anti-maskers and anti-vaxers.





linuxares said:


> Not a reputable source? Are you kidding? It's probably one of the best sources for the US.
> 
> You sadly sound like a QAnon. All proper sources that back my claims up you will say "IT'S FAKE NEWS!" so it's a time waste talking or arguing with you.


Your actions and words have stated otherwise that you care about people, You don't and only care if you're right and to force other people in your twisted ideologies. When people say they care when it's shown the exact opposite, it completely disgusts me.


----------



## ryansspace (Sep 12, 2021)

i wont even read the messages in here out of the angst i have for any ant-vaxxers, but i got both pfizer doses this summer and tbh it's pretty annoying that ppl are making general public safety politicalized


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> _Telling me that the research is easy to find is asinine; if it's easy to find, then directly link studies that support your argument._
> No one should have to go fishing to provide validity for opposing arguments.
> 
> Ignorance is Strength


Irony. 



elk1007 said:


> Telling people they care about them, and then wishing they would die for ideological reasons.


Kind of like claiming to be pro-life, but then pushing against anything that's meant to help people live.



elk1007 said:


> In truth, people like this only want to impose their will on other people. Since they are unable to do so physically, they support government violence against their political adversaries.


In that case, covid is already doing enough violence for them. Why would those people try to get other people vaccinated? 



elk1007 said:


> It's a true sickness that has overtaken the nation. We are no longer able to discuss politics in the US without someone 'othering' their opposition. Reminds me of 1984 in a lot ways.


If you ignore all the deaths and sickness due to covid, sure, I guess. 



elk1007 said:


> Do you support vaccine mandates for individuals who developed natural immunity to COVID?


It seems like if a person manages to get natural immunity, they are still more protected with the vaccine, so yes.  If they don't or can't get it, they can instead continue to get tested.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 12, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Your actions and words have stated otherwise that you care about people, You don't and only care if you're right and to force other people in your twisted ideologies. When people say they care when it's shown the exact opposite, it completely disgusts me.



We've now left the topic at hand and resorted to personal attacks and mud slinging. Starting to smell like a 2016 election race around here.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 12, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> https://www.ice.gov/coronavirus#detStat
> 
> 
> https://www.axios.com/ice-immigrants-covid-vaccine-ee9406fe-7d83-4dce-b5be-c158e0d39f81.html
> ...



The fox news article only references the nypost article. There is no real source at the bottom here. Even the axios article says that the numbers were not publicly released. _There is no public source claiming 3/10_.






> Last I heard the U.S. government still has yet to push Covid vaccine mandates. They've pushed mask mandates, but unless I've missed something only companies, the private sector, are pushing mask mandates and weekly viral testing. So, maybe complain about that instead?



Originally, businesses were not allowed to open unless they followed social distancing and mask "guidelines".
Businesses complied because they didn't want to close down.
Recently, Biden made an executive order that OSHA must force businesses with 100+ employees to screen for vaccination.
If they aren't vaccinated, they must be masked and segregated from other employees.
The private sector does not push these guidelines because it costs them time and money to implement.



> You're absolutely right. So far, though, I'm vaccinated and... I'm doing pretty good. I also got all my other vaccines too. Haven't mutated or been violently tracked either.



That's anecdotal evidence. I know people who have had adverse reactions the vaccine. Those experiences don't make either of us right/wrong.



> God you're smart. You must be thinking the Covid vaccine is like the polio vaccine. You come across as someone who would refuse the polio vaccine and then get polio, and then blame science again. I hope I'm just reading what you've written wrong.



This is a strawman. You're pretending I'm anti-vaccination. I'm anti-vax mandate for untested vaccines.
In 10 years, when these various COVID vaccines have been studies and approved (not by emergency) then I won't mind getting it.
To pretend that COVID vaccine is as safe or well understood as a vaccine that has been around nearly 100 years is intellectually dishonest.




> Uh huh. The Covid testing and mask mandates are the way to go for social division. Not civil rights, education, economy political affiliation, stuff like that. The government is using masks to divide us.



All of the above.



> You got that from Wikipedia, didn't you? No, but really. Any, every virus that has run rampant over the history of mankind has had government intervention at some point. If they didn't, we'd probably still have Polio. Or the Bubonic plague.



Again, I'm not anti-vax. This is a strawman.



> Yes, because big businesses have politicians in their pockets and vice versa. That's why some companies still have monopolies, which are technically outlawed. That's an unfortunate side effect, but not necessarily derived because of. Small businesses couldn't survive because of larger corporations providing convenience of things like delivery during the shutdown, something mom n pops style businesses couldn't compete with. Maybe instead of blaming the government, you should look at companies like Amazon that carve themselves such an edge that they freely dominate thousands of other start ups. Why didn't Amazon donate to keep these businesses open would be a better question to ask in the face of closing businesses during the pandemic.



Why would I blame Amazon for operating as usual?
Amazon is popular because they offer a good service.
They were already taking a lot of business away from brick and mortar stores.
You expect them to counter act government overreach and prop up their competitors?
Only the government can force businesses to close by fiat.
Amazons only guilty of providing a good service to people who had few options.



> Thanks for that. Despite knowing what the actual quote referred to (it's actually part of my job to know stuff like), I was going in a different, more condescending direction. As far as showing my true intentions? I've never tried to hide my intentions. I think I'm pretty clear: hypocrisy is annoying, and some people just aren't fit to live in a progressive society. Anything else you think I'm hiding?



No, this is a lie. If you had understood the original phrase "tip your hand" you would not have replied "I tip my hat too".
You clearly misread what I wrote and didn't understand that your response didn't make sense.
This was a good opportunity to show good faith and be sincere. Unfortunate.



> Actually you're putting way too much into the effort I may or may not have in wanting people to actively die. I really don't care who lives or dies outside of my loved ones; at the end of the day, it's ultimately your choice whether you want to contribute to a better society or to just die off at the back of the pack. But I'll make sure my kids and loved ones get vaccinated and stay safe; if you and yours die off before you've really experienced the majority of your life, so be it.
> 
> Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. I literally can't wait for your response.



*"if you and yours die off...so be it."*

Thank you for proving my point.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 12, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Your actions and words have stated otherwise that you care about people, You don't and only care if you're right and to force other people in your twisted ideologies. When people say they care when it's shown the exact opposite, it completely disgusts me.


Aha... well I guess I'll just live rent free then


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> The fox news article only references the nypost article. There is no real source at the bottom here. Even the axios article says that the numbers were not publicly released. _There is no public source claiming 3/10_.



Never said it was a public source, just that a couple articles referenced it.



elk1007 said:


> Originally, businesses were not allowed to open unless they followed social distancing and mask "guidelines".
> Businesses complied because they didn't want to close down.
> Recently, Biden made an executive order that OSHA must force businesses with 100+ employees to screen for vaccination.
> If they aren't vaccinated, they must be masked and segregated from other employees.
> The private sector does not push these guidelines because it costs them time and money to implement.



None of which are mandates requiring people to get vaccinations. The guidelines in question was an appropriate response to trying to get businesses reopened based on the uncertainty around how many people were affected. If everyone had gotten tested and followed the procedures, I very much doubt we'd be in the state we are now. Additionally, if the private sector did not want to comply, why did they? More than likely so they can keep making money. How is that, in basic argument, any different from just wearing a mask or getting vaccinated so you can go back to a normal life?



elk1007 said:


> This is a strawman. You're pretending I'm anti-vaccination. I'm anti-vax mandate for untested vaccines.
> In 10 years, when these various COVID vaccines have been studies and approved (not by emergency) then I won't mind getting it.
> To pretend that COVID vaccine is as safe or well understood as a vaccine that has been around nearly 100 years is intellectually dishonest.



I don't think there are too many arguments where people are saying it's 100% safe or even remotely understood, however a lot of people have seen that those who first got the vaccine are safe, and are falling in line, which gives it the appearance of such. If you've noticed, people closest to the source of the vaccine got vaccinated, and then it rippled outward from there. Enough people are getting to the point where enough people for their satisfaction are doing just fine, so why not? In reference to a previous statement from you, the same works for those who don't take the vaccine too well. With them, it's a matter of understanding and time served, neither of which might be in immediate view.





elk1007 said:


> Again, I'm not anti-vax. This is a strawman.



I apologize. Based on how you argue and what you've written, I assumed the wrong thing. In that sense, I understand your position a little better, and have a little more empathy and understanding. Thank you for clarifying.



elk1007 said:


> Why would I blame Amazon for operating as usual?
> Amazon is popular because they offer a good service.
> They were already taking a lot of business away from brick and mortar stores.
> You expect them to counter act government overreach and prop up their competitors?
> ...



I wouldn't blame Amazon for business as usual, but they're a lot more to blame for small businesses not being able to survive the shutdown than just the government. It's regrettable that many businesses didn't survive, but unfortunately that's what happens in a capitalistic society when rampant viruses have a field day on the population.



elk1007 said:


> No, this is a lie. If you had understood the original phrase "tip your hand" you would not have replied "I tip my hat too".
> You clearly misread what I wrote and didn't understand that your response didn't make sense.
> This was a good opportunity to show good faith and be sincere. Unfortunate.



You're still not quite getting it. I'd rather agree to disagree on this one since it's already getting away from the topic.




elk1007 said:


> *"if you and yours die off...so be it."*
> 
> Thank you for proving my point.



If your point is that I'm unsympathetic when it comes to people not making educated decisions, I never tried to disprove that. I'm glad I proved it? Just please don't assume I speak for anyone other than myself in your attempt at validation; I do not.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 12, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Your actions and words have stated otherwise that you care about people,


Do you care to be specific? Because I'm unaware of how anyone could reasonably look at my words and come to the conclusion that I "don't care about people." I wouldn't be a proponent of the vaccine, masks, etc. if I didn't care about people.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Aha... well I guess I'll just live rent free then


Sorry, my head's filled with too much intelligence. You need to find somewhere else to rent.


----------



## Deleted member 514389 (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Thanks for the hat tip, but the phrase is *"tip your hand".*
> The expression refers to poker, where you want to keep the cards in your hand a secret.
> Tipping your hand means to reveal your true intentions, which you have done again.



I'm not sure, are you ?:
https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/tip-your-hat-cap-to-somebody


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Wishing that people die because they don't believe in mandating brand new vaccines is immoral.
> Wishing death on people is immoral.
> Also, unvaccinated are not dying in any significant numbers. It's clear you wish that on them, however.


immoral, but it isn't really genocide. don't conflate the two dude, anti-vaxxers aren't fucking martyrs of some regime oppression

and, for the record, unvaccinated doesn't necessarily equal anti-vax. if you can't get a jab because of medical reasons // your parents being anti-vax dumbheads (applies to underage users), then that's okay.

but if you don't want the jab because you're on some conspiracy hype train, then congratulations on losing yer marbles completely. at least i hope you don't purposely infect others who have more sanity than you


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 12, 2021)

notrea11y said:


> I'm not sure, are you ?:
> https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/tip-your-hat-cap-to-somebody



Yes. I am sure. 'Tip my hat' made no sense in context. 
Why say tip hat when I said tip hand? He obviously misread it.


----------



## 2short (Sep 12, 2021)

Of course I took the vaccine. Most of the population here did. And now we have no restrictions anymore. Everything is back to normal.

https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-first-eu-lift-coronavirus-restrictions/


----------



## xs4all (Sep 12, 2021)

I was on the fence and leaning towards NO for getting the jab, but have since changed my mind and my family who lives with me, my first Pfizer jab will be next week.

Politics and conspiracy theories aside, if it can somewhat reduce the illness and hospitalization and reduce spreading covid, surely that is a good reason to get the jab?


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 12, 2021)

xs4all said:


> I was on the fence and leaning towards NO for getting the jab, but have since changed my mind and my family who lives with me, my first Pfizer jab will be next week.
> 
> Politics and conspiracy theories aside, if it can somewhat reduce the illness and hospitalization and reduce spreading covid, surely that is a good reason to get the jab?


Some people don't take the jab because they consider vaccines some miracle cure for the disease, which is a nice but untrue fairy tale.
Maybe time for them to get out of this mentality of "it doesn't cure covid so what's the point"


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Not a reputable source? Are you kidding? It's probably one of the best sources for the US.


What? Did you also feel this way during Trump's administration when they were blatantly pushing nonsense?


----------



## matthi321 (Sep 12, 2021)

im suprised so many say they dont want the vaccine, considering this forum is very liberal i expected more than 69% to say yes to the vaccine


----------



## linuxares (Sep 12, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> What? Did you also feel this way during Trump's administration when they were blatantly pushing nonsense?


Of course not, especially when Trump have proven he take facts from Twitter.
That's why I check the sources they provide. Same as this slide did. If they don't show sources. I don't trust it.

Do you think I trust everything my government say blindly? No. It's always good to be critical. But dismiss it totally is just dumb.
This graph I shown took sources for CDC and the Hospitals. As any government should do.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Sep 12, 2021)

matthi321 said:


> im suprised so many say they dont want the vaccine, considering this forum is very liberal i expected more than 69% to say yes to the vaccine



There's a 78% difference between the yes's and no's.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 12, 2021)

matthi321 said:


> im suprised so many say they dont want the vaccine, considering this forum is very liberal i expected more than 69% to say yes to the vaccine





D34DL1N3R said:


> There's a 78% difference between the yes's and no's.



30.5% of GBATemp users won't get the vaccine.
33.1% of GBATemp users supported Donald Trump in the 2020 election.
I don't think it's a coincidence these numbers are only off by 2.6.


----------



## Hanafuda (Sep 12, 2021)

matthi321 said:


> im suprised so many say they dont want the vaccine, considering this forum is very liberal i expected more than 69% to say yes to the vaccine




I received the vaccine as soon as it was available to me. As did my wife and daughter.

And I lean rather conservative (particularly on fiscal) and voted for Trump over the trainwreck people both times.

But if I had actually, knowingly had Covid19, and had recovered from it in fine health, I would probably be one of those people refusing to be vaccinated. Why should a person subject themselves to an experimental palliative if they already have natural immunity that is much better than any vax can give?


----------



## Lacius (Sep 12, 2021)

Hanafuda said:


> Why should a person subject themselves to an experimental palliative if they already have natural immunity that is much better than any vax can give?



The amount of protection from "natural immunity" is unclear.
The amount of protection from the vaccine is more clear and more controlled.
Vaccination increases protection even if you’ve already had COVID-19 and have "natural immunity."

Vaccination appears to offer more protection than "natural immunity."
The vaccine is not "experimental," nor is it "palliative."
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Of course not, especially when Trump have proven he take facts from Twitter.
> That's why I check the sources they provide. Same as this slide did. If they don't show sources. I don't trust it.
> 
> Do you think I trust everything my government say blindly? No. It's always good to be critical. But dismiss it totally is just dumb.
> This graph I shown took sources for CDC and the Hospitals. As any government should do.


I mean, you literally said the Whitehouse is one of the best sources in the US so perhaps you shouldn't have said that if you didn't mean it.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 12, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I mean, you literally said the Whitehouse is one of the best sources in the US so perhaps you shouldn't have said that if you didn't mean it.


Yes, it is one of the best sources. Especially now when a clown isn't at the podium


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Yes, it is one of the best sources. Especially now when a clown isn't at the podium


So what you should've said is that you think the current Whitehouse administration is one of the best sources. The other made you seem neutral which is obviously not the case.

Btw, I do think you're wrong as it seems to me the incumbent government of any nation (including my own) have no choice but to spin things a certain way rather than be objective.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 12, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> So what you should've said is that you think the current Whitehouse administration is one of the best sources. The other made you seem neutral which is obviously not the case.
> 
> Btw, I do think you're wrong as it seems to me the incumbent government of any nation (including my own) have no choice but to spin things a certain way rather than be objective.


Nah, but they haven't spewed nonsense as far as I can tell. I know they're just in the hand of lobbiest in the end of the day.

A government shouldn't spin anything. They should be open and honest with it's people.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> A government shouldn't spin anything. They should be open and honest with it's people.


Has that ever been the case? I don't even see how it's possible.

Also, OMG at the above comment about the vaccine being a palliative. That might be the stupidest thing I've read today.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Do you support vaccine mandates for individuals who developed natural immunity to COVID?


In my opinion, yes, people who have developed natural immunity should still get the vaccine. It's another added layer of protection since natural immunity isn't perfect either and it also doesn't last forever. There's plenty of reports of people still getting the virus a second time even after they've recovered from it the first time. Plus, to even get natural immunity, someone has to get sick and recover from the virus first. And that is not a good chance to take, in all honesty.

Look, we get that you want your "freedom" and whatnot. But in this case, it's literally a global pandemic with this virus. Why the hell is taking a vaccine so political all of a sudden? How about instead think about your actual well-being and the well-being of others? Not get caught up in some political conspiracy bullshit when lives are actually in danger and people dying from the virus because they were too stubborn to not take a vaccine that could have gave them a much better chance to live. Rather than freedom, it sounds more like "*freedumb*". All this misinformation about the vaccine and making people not take any is what's murdering so many people with the virus.

It'd be too late if your unvaccinated close friends and family die off from COVID-19. Because once they're gone, they're gone. And there's no going back from it.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Yes, it is one of the best sources. Especially now when a clown isn't at the podium


Umm.....



Ok. Yeah. This is much better than before, 110%.


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 12, 2021)

Let's put il like that : you guys have the freedom to not take the vaccine, or follow mask mandates, or whatever else you want. And we have the freedom to not want to have to do anything with you, and to not have to be around you petri dishes for variants.

Freedom for everyone, i believe it's fair?

And well, if you do want to hang with us and stuff anyway, you still have the freedom to change your mind and follow the fucking rules or get the vaccine, am I right?


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 12, 2021)

Morrisons supermarket in the UK has decided to cut sick pay for employees that aren't vaccinated if they have to self isolate.

What concerns me is that it's entirely possible to be vaccinated and still have a positive test result and need to isolate. But in this case it seems you will get full sick pay.

I'm not comfortable with that at all even though I'm double jabbed and don't work at Morrisons.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Nah, but they haven't spewed nonsense as far as I can tell. I know they're just in the hand of lobbiest in the end of the day.
> 
> A government shouldn't spin anything. They should be open and honest with it's people.



It is naïve to think only the politicians you agree with are honest.


----------



## Holybond (Sep 12, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> Let's put il like that : you guys have the freedom to not take the vaccine, or follow mask mandates, or whatever else you want. And we have the freedom to not want to have to do anything with you, and to not have to be around you petri dishes for variants.
> 
> Freedom for everyone, i believe it's fair?
> 
> And well, if you do want to hang with us and stuff anyway, you still have the freedom to change your mind and follow the fucking rules or get the vaccine, am I right?



I already got the vaccine, but this isn't how it works sadly. If that were the case it'd be fine but you can't ignore the mask mandates without your employer, the government, etc coming down on you and removing your ability to work and live. In most scenarios the whole "alienate those that are vaccine hesitant" is bad for discourse. Sure, there are a bunch of crazies that believe in flat earth and all these other conspiracy theories.

The problem is, is that people claim the vaccines protect you, the individual. So if someone else doesn't want to get the vaccine, it's THEIR life that's on the line. If they ignore all the signs and get sick, then that's something they should have to live with in my opinion but being given the illusion of choice like this is some sort of rpg where every dialogue option you pick still leads you to getting the vaccine isn't actually a choice. At least not where I live. Maybe somewhere in Florida you'll have a bit more freedom because that's where a lot of the crazies reside.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> It is naïve to think only the politicians you agree with are honest.


Yup that why Rumble videos of random influencers with no medical/ politically knowledge is the only thing I Trust… and whatever They try to peddle that week ..be it Gold/Emergency food /or my pillows…


----------



## linuxares (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> It is naïve to think only the politicians you agree with are honest.


*facepalm* How do you even manage to open a door?


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 12, 2021)

linuxares said:


> *facepalm* How do you even manage to open a door?



That's not an argument.



Holybond said:


> I already got the vaccine, but this isn't how it works sadly. If that were the case it'd be fine but you can't ignore the mask mandates without your employer, the government, etc coming down on you and removing your ability to work and live. In most scenarios the whole "alienate those that are vaccine hesitant" is bad for discourse. Sure, there are a bunch of crazies that believe in flat earth and all these other conspiracy theories.
> 
> The problem is, is that people claim the vaccines protect you, the individual. So if someone else doesn't want to get the vaccine, it's THEIR life that's on the line. If they ignore all the signs and get sick, then that's something they should have to live with in my opinion but being given the illusion of choice like this is some sort of rpg where every dialogue option you pick still leads you to getting the vaccine isn't actually a choice. At least not where I live. Maybe somewhere in Florida you'll have a bit more freedom because that's where a lot of the crazies reside.



The new progressive believes in segregation. I wish I were kidding 



djpannda said:


> Yup that why Rumble videos of random influencers with no medical/ politically knowledge is the only thing I Trust… and whatever They try to peddle that week ..be it Gold/Emergency food /or my pillows…



No one can make you believe something. 
One should approach any source of information with skepticism because _everyone_ has incentives and personal motives. To believe things because they feel good or match one's current world view will only entrench one in their own bias.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 12, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> The new progressive believes in segregation. I wish I were kidding
> .



The fact that you think this is segregation is what should be worrisome. When blacks and whites were segregated, black people couldn't just don some white skin to avoid the segregation. Black people were killed just for trying to attend schools and public spaces. All the unvaccinated have to do is either vaccinate or at least wear a mask and comply with viral testing. I also have yet to see vaccinated people going bananas and fighting people who are unvaccinated, though a quick Google search will show a couple pages of unvaccinated people acting out of hand.

You know for all their talk of second amendment rights and all that tongue on cheek rebellion bullshit, Republicans don't seem to do much aside from racist half marches and whatever that mess at the Capitol Building was.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 12, 2021)

Funny people want to cry infringing on personal rights while forgetting public safety “Trumps” personal freedom…funny how most you wear seat belts and understand seat belt laws when just 37 years ago.. seatbelts laws were unamerican. 



P.S. why is it always Libertarians the ones to start shit


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 13, 2021)

Holybond said:


> If that were the case it'd be fine but you can't ignore the mask mandates without your employer, the government, etc coming down on you and removing your ability to work and live.


That's exactly the "we have the right to not want to have anything to do with you" part of my message, directed at those who want to put not only their lives, but the lives of others on the line.
They have their right on their bodies, and we and our employers and governments have the right to protect ourselves and vulnerable people around us, who cannot get the vaccines or for whom it is not effective, from those idiots who decided to not get it *and* follow none of the rules.

It's not like there are no alternatives, if someone doesn't want the vaccines then they can follow the rules about masks and shit. And if they don't want that either, they can just stop complaining if other people including their employer don't want to be around them. They have the right to protect their own bodies and their loved ones from ignorants that let the thing continue to go to 11. Simple as that really.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 13, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> No one can make you believe something.
> One should approach any source of information with skepticism because _everyone_ has incentives and personal motives. To believe things because they feel good or match one's current world view will only entrench one in their own bias.


Agreed. So, it's time to climb down from the conspiracy theory nonsense and accept the scientific data.


----------



## AlexMCS (Sep 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The amount of protection from "natural immunity" is unclear.
> The amount of protection from the vaccine is more clear and more controlled.



Eh... both are based on statistical inference. None is "clearer" than the other.
The "catch" is that reserach is much more prominent on the vaccines, for whatever reason.



> Vaccination increases protection even if you’ve already had COVID-19 and have "natural immunity."
> 
> Vaccination appears to offer more protection than "natural immunity."



Same for those figures.

And I can't see any scientific basis as to why the direct contagion (the actual disease, after recovery) would give me _less_ protection than the vaccine.
If anyone can explain this one to me, please do. I'm really curious about this one.



> The vaccine *is not "experimental,"* nor is it "palliative."
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html



This is false though. Most of them are indeed experimental.
We're definitely being used as test subjects, particularly for mRNA and some of the Adenovirus vaccines.
It is understandable, however, given the situation and how contagious the whole thing is.

A lot of people who were taking unrelated drugs, like HCQ and Ivermectin were being used as test subjects as well, though with a much smaller risk, considering the substances, their pharmacokinetics and their side effects are widely known, unlike those of the new vaccination methods.

Attenuated vaccines (mostly the Chinese ones) are the closest to the "classic" vaccination approach, and they were the only ones I would be willing to take, if I were to take any of them at some point.

I got a pretty severe case of CoViD-19 back in March, and I really don't want me (or anyone else) to get it (again), but, not even accounting for the wild conspiracy theories, I'm not willing to be a test subject for a new vaccination method with completely unforeseen long term consequences.

I respect those that do get vaccinated, and wish they'd respect my decision not to be vaccinated in turn :/


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 13, 2021)

I'm wondering why members on this forum feel the need to curse and resort to personal attack in their posts.
If you don't form a valid argument, I cannot respond to it.
You will never change someone's mind by calling them names or showing how easily you become angry. 
This is true regardless of your position.


----------



## Immortallix (Sep 13, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Agreed. So, it's time to climb down from the conspiracy theory nonsense and accept the scientific data.


The scientific data says this thing ain't perfect. 
https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7827936/
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.23.21257679v1.full



Arecaidian Fox said:


> Holy fucking shit, I am so sick of seeing this vaccine hesitancy, conspiracy and denialism. Get the jab and maybe we'd all be out of this by now. But no, instead the same group that screeches about freedoms then has the audacity to complain that this pandemic is "taking too long" or other such fluff. While also ignoring the fact that they're conveniently trampling on _my_ freedom to not have to deal with their plague rat bullshit. Unless you have a _valid medical reason_ to not get vaccinated, _*PLEASE DO IT*_.



1. Nah
2. Your jab not working m8?
As long as big pharma keep getting free money from governments all over the world this will never be over.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 13, 2021)

Immortallix said:


> As long as big pharma keep getting free money from governments all over the world this will never be over.



I have to agree with you.
Hospitals in the US get COVID funding from the federal government based on the number of COVID cases and COVID deaths.
They have financial incentive to declare anyone who had a positive COVID test as a COVID death. 
The world gains a lot of nuance when you follow the money.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 13, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Morrisons supermarket in the UK has decided to cut sick pay for employees that aren't vaccinated if they have to self isolate.
> 
> What concerns me is that it's entirely possible to be vaccinated and still have a positive test result and need to isolate. But in this case it seems you will get full sick pay.
> 
> I'm not comfortable with that at all even though I'm double jabbed and don't work at Morrisons.


Morrisons is legally required to pay sick pay to their employees, so the story is a little overblown. What they’re actually doing (from what I can gather) is lowering the amount from full contract hours to statutory sick pay (SSP) which equals £96.35 per week for up to 28 weeks. If they’re planning to pay them anything less, the Crown will have a little something-something to say about that.

https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay

Minimum pay at Morrisons at present stands at £9.20 per hour (if simple Google-fu is to be believed), so SSP works out as if the employee “worked” a little over 10 hours. It’s actually not that big of a difference for the average Morrisons employee since most of them are employed on garbage 12-hour contracts. The lion’s share of their income comes from overtime which they wouldn’t get as sick pay regardless, this is standard in retail. The bigger problem here is that this is clearly discriminatory.

They’re not doing this because they care about COVID-19 - they’re doing this because Morrisons is broke. The company has just agreed to a takeover offer by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice, accepting the £7bn offer earlier this month. This isn’t about protecting anyone, it’s about legging it from the scene with as much money as humanly possible before new management takes over.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-drops-as-firm-warns-over-supply-chain-crisis

Britons all across the country are (rightfully) boycotting the chain and I intend to do the same, the Equality Act might not include medical history in its anti-discrimination protected categories, but I certainly do. If Morrisons wants to coerce their employees to undergo medical procedures in order for them to receive the exact same sick pay as any other employee then they’re not getting any of my money, plain and simple. I’ll happily shop elsewhere, as should everybody else who thinks employers should treat all of their employees equally regardless of their beliefs. I firmly believe that everyone is free to make their own decisions regarding their health, and this includes silly or self-destructive ones. If Morrisons can’t afford to pay sick leave then their business model is at fault, not the virus.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 13, 2021)

i don't see why the anti-vaxxers here want to screech so bad about "muh oppression" and even going as far as calling it segregation like in the old days of USA

not getting a jab because "i don't want to get a jab" is only your own choice and you choose to be an unjabbed entity. don't be surprised if some people won't want to be in same room as you because of your carelessness.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 13, 2021)

I'm curious how many people think the vaccine's purpose is to stop you getting infected from being near someone with Covid, versus its actual purpose which is to increase your chances of having a positive outcome after you get infected.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 13, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I'm curious how many people think the vaccine's purpose is to stop you getting infected from being near someone with Covid, versus its actual purpose which is to increase your chances of having a positive outcome after you get infected.


from my own experience, quite a lot of people think the jab is some miracle cure


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 13, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> What would you do if you found out for a fact that the conspiracy theorists were right and you were being lied to?
> 
> A. Re-evaluate your entire life
> B. Start doing more research in an open minded way from both sides, even if it's just to satisfy your mind that the conspiracy theorists are still wrong
> ...


I would ask for sources, something none of the conspiracies have been able to provide.




elk1007 said:


> A link is not evidence. Please post actual statistics from the abstract. I can't do the research for opposition arguments. You're asking me to dig for proof. Take the time to form an argument.


Do you have any sources for whatever point you are trying to make?


----------



## thehawksfuckingdead7 (Sep 13, 2021)

I just got my first dose last week.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 13, 2021)

thehawksfuckingdead7 said:


> I just got my first dose last week.


ooh, what jab?


----------



## thehawksfuckingdead7 (Sep 13, 2021)

tsao said:


> ooh, what jab?


Pfizer!


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 13, 2021)

I am once again asking if have any of the anti-vaxxors provided any sources to their claims?


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 13, 2021)

thehawksfuckingdead7 said:


> Pfizer!


Ah. I'm actually trying to find a free day to get the jab. Luckily none of these shady Chinese/Russian jabs are available here so anything will work for me


----------



## thehawksfuckingdead7 (Sep 13, 2021)

tsao said:


> Ah. I'm actually trying to find a free day to get the jab. Luckily none of these shady Chinese/Russian jabs are available here so anything will work for me


That's good to know!


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 13, 2021)

Immortallix said:


> 2. Your jab not working m8?
> As long as big pharma keep getting free money from governments all over the world this will never be over.


Not everyone can get the jab, so they are protecting themselves and others. 

Totally the people that don't want to do anything to curtail this virus, aren't the ones at fault for prolonging this virus and risking even more variants showing up.



subcon959 said:


> I'm curious how many people think the vaccine's purpose is to stop you getting infected from being near someone with Covid, versus its actual purpose which is to increase your chances of having a positive outcome after you get infected.


I'm pretty sure it lowers the chance of getting it at all too. I never seen anyone claim it gives 100% protection. Either way, I guess they are somehow convince that no protection is better than some protection.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 13, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am once again asking if have any of the anti-vaxxors provided any sources to their claims?



No one here is anti-vax.

What claim do you need evidence for?


----------



## djpannda (Sep 13, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> No one here is anti-vax.


140 pages say otherwise but Granted 98% of people parroting anti-vax info is just because political reason as if their candidate won and mandated it would not be a issue...


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 13, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> No one here is anti-vax.
> 
> What claim do you need evidence for?


There’s a lot of people who are anti-vac in this thread and have been open about being anti-vac outside of this thread. I am not tagging them because I am not going to give them that attention but just scrolling back a little will reveal them.
The normal for me, are there any peer-reviewed papers showing that the Covid vaccine is unsafe? Is there any peer-reviewed papers showing that vaccines in general are harmful enough to warrant avoiding them?


----------



## tabzer (Sep 13, 2021)

People are "anti-vax" like ivermectin is horse de-wormer.

Also, the definition of vaccine has been changed by the CDC to include inhaling farts, just so that they can keep calling this thing a "vaccine".


----------



## Lacius (Sep 13, 2021)

Immortallix said:


> The scientific data says this thing ain't perfect.
> https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7827936/
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.23.21257679v1.full


Nobody said the vaccines were perfect, but they've been demonstrated to be safe, particularly when contrasted with the risks associated with contracting COVID-19. As your your link to the prion-based disease claim, it's purely speculative. There is no evidence that the COVID-19 vaccines are associated with prion-based diseases.



AlexMCS said:


> Eh... both are based on statistical inference. None is "clearer" than the other.
> The "catch" is that reserach is much more prominent on the vaccines, for whatever reason.
> 
> 
> ...


The vaccines underwent the "experimentation" stage before they were available to the general public under emergency use authorization. Since then, the Pfizer vaccine has received full FDA approval. It is incorrect to say the vaccines are "indeed experimental" or that people broadly are "definitely being used as test subjects."

The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective. If you want to minimize the odds you'll contract COVID-19 and/or spread it to other people, you should get vaccinated.


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 13, 2021)

tabzer said:


> People are "anti-vax" like ivermectin is horse de-wormer.
> 
> Also, the definition of vaccine has been changed by the CDC to include inhaling farts, just so that they can keep calling this thing a "vaccine".


source or get out


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 13, 2021)

On the subject of the vaccine, I wonder what @Lacius has to say about a phenomenon I learned about recently. There’s an interesting disease that affects poultry called Marek’s disease, it attacks a chicken’s lymphatic system. The actual disease isn’t really of interest here, but rather the prevention mechanism and its indirect effects. Areas affected by MDV generally vaccinate their poultry against the disease, however the vaccine is “leaky”, meaning it protects the host from harm, but does not prevent contracting or shedding the virus. This ultimately led to a somewhat vicious cycle of chickens having to continuously receive boosters against new mutated strains of MDV, and with each cycle the virus becomes more and more resistant, necessitating a new vaccine. This is oddly reminiscent to our current predicament, and it would be somewhat ironic if the booster model become a driving factor in COVID mutation, considering we already know that vaccinated patients can have viral loads of Delta that are equivalent to those in an unvaccinated patient (we just don’t really know if they’re “live”, so to speak).

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

Thoughts? I found the parallel quite interesting, but I’m no virologist myself.


----------



## AlexMCS (Sep 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Nobody said the vaccines were perfect, but they've been demonstrated to be safe, particularly when contrasted with the risks associated with contracting COVID-19. As your your link to the prion-based disease claim, it's purely speculative. There is no evidence that the COVID-19 vaccines are associated with prion-based diseases.
> 
> 
> The vaccines underwent the "experimentation" stage before they were available to the general public under emergency use authorization. Since then, the Pfizer vaccine has received full FDA approval. It is incorrect to say the vaccines are "indeed experimental" or that people broadly are "definitely being used as test subjects."
> ...



Their only demonstration of safety is short term, other than a "few" (quite a lot, but considering the scale, not much, really) severe reactions and side effects.
Effectiveness is great, as expected, which is why I don't condemn them at all.

They are fully approved by the FDA, not my local sanitary authority, ANVISA.
They are *all* experimental over here.

And Pfizer is the one I trust the least. I fear those mRNA/Adenovirus vaccines can be quite potential triggers to autoimmune diseases, among other issues.
I just think it is not worth the risk at the moment.

Yes, I think CoViD-19 isn't as bad as whatever the long term effects of those vaccines might be, so, for now, I'm just observing.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 14, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> On the subject of the vaccine, I wonder what @Lacius has to say about a phenomenon I learned about recently in passing. There’s an interesting disease that affects poultry called Marek’s disease, it affects a chicken’s lymphatic system, but the actual disease isn’t really of interest, but rather the prevention mechanism and its indirect effects. Areas affected by MDV generally vaccinate their poultry against the disease, however the vaccine is “leaky”, meaning it protects the host from harm, but does not prevent contracting or shedding the virus. This ultimately led to a somewhat vicious cycle of chickens having to continuously receive boosters against new mutated strains of MDV, and with each cycle the virus becomes more and more resistant, necessitating a new vaccine. This is oddly reminiscent to out current predicament, and it would be somewhat ironic if the booster model become a driving factor in COVID mutation, considering we already know that vaccinated patients can have viral loads of Delta that are equivalent to those in an unvaccinated patient (we just don’t really know if they’re “live”, so to speak).
> 
> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous
> 
> Thoughts? I found the parallel quite interesting, but I’m no virologist myself.


It isn't completely analogous to our current situation, since it does look like our vaccines do indeed lower the odds of contracting the delta variant (but not the viral load in a vaccinated person who suffers a breakthrough infection), but I'm always worried about the evolution of resistance against any mitigation strategy we come up with against any pathogen.

Even if we had a vaccine that was 99% effective against COVID-19, and we vaccinated 99% of people with it, there's admittedly a huge selective pressure for vaccine resistance. Herd immunity would almost certainly eliminate the the virus in that area of high vaccination, but if there are other parts of the world where the virus isn't eliminated, then each repeated exposure of the virus to the vaccinated population only increases the odds of vaccine resistance developing.

To use an analogy, it makes me think of this video that visually demonstrates the development of antibacterial resistance. Even the area of high antibiotic resistance (i.e. the area of the world with a high vaccination rate) will eventually become exposed to antibiotic-resistant bacteria (i.e. a vaccine-resistant virus). It's only a matter of time. The goal is to limit the spread of infection as much as possible to drastically slow down mutation rates and the development of new variants. Coronaviruses are also stupid because they might pick up entire segments of genetic information from other coronaviruses.





AlexMCS said:


> Their only demonstration of safety is short term


We have a lot of data with regard to the longer-term effects of vaccines, including the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines. The technology is not new. Given what we know about mRNA vaccines, vaccines in general, in addition to the fact that the vaccine is completely gone from the body within days/weeks of getting vaccinated, the odds of long-term effects are exceedingly low.

There has been no demonstration of long-term effects, nor has there been any demonstration of any real mechanism for long-term effects. It's purely speculative.



AlexMCS said:


> They are fully approved by the FDA, not my local sanitary authority, ANVISA.
> They are *all* experimental over here.


The experiments were done before they were broadly available to the public.



AlexMCS said:


> And Pfizer is the one I trust the least. I fear those mRNA/Adenovirus vaccines can be quite potential triggers to autoimmune diseases, among other issue.


There's no evidence of this. It's anti-vax nonsense based on feeling rather than fact, similar to the continued belief that vaccines broadly cause autism.



AlexMCS said:


> I just think it is not worth the risk at the moment.
> 
> Yes, I think CoViD-19 isn't as bad as whatever the long term effects of those vaccines might be.


COVID-19 has killed about 4.55 million people worldwide. It carries substantial risk of serious harm that can require hospitalization. It also carries significant risks of long-term effects that have actually been demonstrated.


----------



## Zyvyn (Sep 14, 2021)

I have never been cautious of shots and stuff in the past. I ended up getting both doses of Pfizer and had zero reaction other than a sore arm which is basically expected with any kind of shot.


----------



## AlexMCS (Sep 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It isn't completely analogous to our current situation, since it does look like our vaccines do indeed lower the odds of contracting the delta variant (but not the viral load in a vaccinated person who suffers a breakthrough infection), but I'm always worried about the evolution of resistance against any mitigation strategy we come up with against any pathogen.
> 
> Even if we had a vaccine that was 99% effective against COVID-19, and we vaccinated 99% of people with it, there's admittedly a huge selective pressure for vaccine resistance. Herd immunity would almost certainly eliminate the the virus in that area of high vaccination, but if there are other parts of the world where the virus isn't eliminated, then each repeated exposure of the virus to the vaccinated population only increases the odds of vaccine resistance developing.
> 
> ...




It's a matter of trust and pretty much no peer reviews, even on the effectiveness #s.
I don't trust the numbers, and I'm wary of the potential side effects. Yes, it's a "feeling rather than fact" issue, since there isn't enough "fact" yet for me to abandon my "feeling". And I say that as a scientist myself.

Honestly, I think a hard lockdown would be much more effective than any vaccines, but people can't help themselves.
CoViD-19 has a low mortality ratio after, even with the high death count. My mother got it twice, some sisters got it thrice or more. I got it bad, my O2% levels dropped to the low 80s for a while. Breathing was a constant pain, and the worst part, to me, was the gastrointestinal effects. Thankfully, no one in my family died, but quite a few got close, including me.

It's a terrible disease, no doubt, but not as bad as something like Nipah can be if left unchecked.

All that said, I'm scheduled for my shot in 2 days, and it seems I can pick which vaccine to take, so, I think my turn has come!


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 14, 2021)

Lacius said:


> We have a lot of data with regard to the longer-term effects of vaccines, including the long-term effects of mRNA vaccines. The technology is not new. Given what we know about mRNA vaccines, vaccines in general, in addition to the fact that the vaccine is completely gone from the body within days/weeks of getting vaccinated, the odds of long-term effects are exceedingly low.


You know what does have long-term effects? Lung damage and the like after getting sick from COVID-19.


----------



## Kunty (Sep 14, 2021)

I am a man of science and I decided to get the vaccine the moment it was available to my age group and I now have both doses. We don't know the long term side effects of the vaccine same as we don't know the long term side effects of covid itself, we can only go on data of previous coronaviruses. I think many people have the misconception that vaccines stop you from getting the particular disease they are vaccinating against but that isn't the case, you can still get it but it tends to be less severe. I have known young and healthy people who have contracted covid and ended up in hospital, some have regrettably died. The virus changes little bits about itself as it jumps from person to person and then we end up with newer more efficient strains, if we can make it more difficult for the virus to keep jumping and changing then we can rid ourselves of the risk of the virus. I understand people's apprehension as vaccines are normally tested for a much longer time but I believe the benefits outweigh the risks in this case. The planet is too overpopulated anyway so meh either way really. Fuck anti-vaxers in general though.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 14, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> There’s a lot of people who are anti-vac in this thread and have been open about being anti-vac outside of this thread. I am not tagging them because I am not going to give them that attention but just scrolling back a little will reveal them.
> The normal for me, are there any peer-reviewed papers showing that the Covid vaccine is unsafe? Is there any peer-reviewed papers showing that vaccines in general are harmful enough to warrant avoiding them?



There are now 141 pages. Who is anti-vaccine?
Can you post _one_ example?

Since the thread is about COVID, most people who are opposed to mandatory COVID vaccine are simply anti-mandate for unvetted vaccine. They still believe in the efficacy of older, time tested vaccines.
Before this COVID politicization, there were actual "anti-vaxxers" who rejected _all _vaccines.

To group those who reject this specific vaccine in with people who reject all vaccines is intellectually dishonest.



Kunty said:


> I understand people's apprehension as vaccines are normally tested for a much longer.....Fuck anti-vaxers in general though.



This is both equivocation and a categorical error. 
Opposition against COVID vax mandate =/= being anti-vaccine. 
Just like being anti-bath salts =/= anti-drug.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 14, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> There are now 141 pages. Who is anti-vaccine?
> Can you post _one_ example?
> 
> Since the thread is about COVID, most people who are opposed to mandatory COVID vaccine are simply anti-mandate for unvetted vaccine. They still believe in the efficacy of older, time tested vaccines.
> ...


I just stated that I won’t give them that attention and I am sticking to that statement. There’s literally posts by some members who claim shit like “their doctor told them not to take it,” or “they’ve never been vaccinated and won’t change that.” I am not going to quote to tag them because I am not about to waste my time on them again.
As for the “against mandates” argument, most of those have been included with extremely stupid nonsense as well, including saying they won’t get vaccinated based entirely on garbage. I have been part of this thread for months now and I’ve only seen a large amount of misinformation and nonsense those against getting vaccinated or those against “mandatory vaccinations.” In all honestly, I am starting to believe that phrase is just a nonsense phrase to pretend to have some moral or logical high ground


----------



## Kunty (Sep 14, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> There are now 141 pages. Who is anti-vaccine?
> Can you post _one_ example?
> 
> Since the thread is about COVID, most people who are opposed to mandatory COVID vaccine are simply anti-mandate for unvetted vaccine. They still believe in the efficacy of older, time tested vaccines.
> ...


I was speaking about anti-vaxxers in general. Not people not wanting the covid vaccine.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 14, 2021)

Kunty said:


> I was speaking about anti-vaxxers in general. Not people not wanting the covid vaccine.



Please be more explicit about this, since Lilith is trying to argue (poorly) that there is no difference.



Lilith Valentine said:


> In all honestly, I am starting to believe that phrase is just a nonsense phrase to pretend to have some moral or logical high ground


----------



## Kunty (Sep 14, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Please be more explicit about this, since Lilith is trying to argue (poorly) that there is no difference.


I mean my intention was pretty obvious to be fair... I understand the apprehension but I don't agree with it. I think people should get the vaccine but I don't think any government should force anyone to have it. I feel it's more of a moral obligation to have it, but if you don't want it it's your choice. I just think it makes you (not you personally, people in general) a bit of a twat if you don't get it tbh.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 14, 2021)

Kunty said:


> I mean my intention was pretty obvious to be fair... I understand the apprehension but I don't agree with it. I think people should get the vaccine but I don't think any government should force anyone to have it. I feel it's more of a moral obligation to have it, but if you don't want it it's your choice. I just think it makes you (not you personally, people in general) a bit of a twat if you don't get it tbh.



You're entitled to that opinion. 
Live and let live.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 15, 2021)

Just to update y'all I finally scheduled my jab for this Friday  Can't wait to get 5G connection in my body so maybe my online games won't lag as usual.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Sep 15, 2021)

US Armed Forces are supposedly now being mandated to be vaccinated by Dec 15th. First off, why Dec 15th? Why a three month window for them to all possibly contract and spread? Secondly, is this going to be an actual vaccine mandate? Or another fake ass "mandate" like the 100+ workers one - which is actually more of a testing mandate. Not a vaccine mandate.

Edit: Becasue, it's extremely unlikely they are going to do weekly tests on every service menber that doesn't want the vaccine. I call another bullshit mandate where neither the vaccine OR tests are going to be actually widely mandated.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 15, 2021)

tsao said:


> Just to update y'all I finally scheduled my jab for this Friday  Can't wait to get 5G connection in my body so maybe my online games won't lag as usual.


let me know if it worked.. I already had the vaccine for 5 months but my 5g is still spotty.


----------



## linuxares (Sep 15, 2021)

djpannda said:


> let me know if it worked.. I already had the vaccine for 5 months but my 5g is still spotty.


Oh? My 5G went up. I can hear satellites now.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 15, 2021)

linuxares said:


> Oh? My 5G went up. I can hear satellites now.


Not only that, everything that I'm doing irl is also being tracked by the government and Bill Gates.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 16, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> Please be more explicit about this, since Lilith is trying to argue (poorly) that there is no difference.


Considering my involvement in this thread for several months now, I take umbrage at this statement. If you haven't been involved in the conversations that I've been involved in, then your input isn't welcome. My comments were not directed at you, they've been directed at the same individuals that come to this thread with their ill-informed opinions on vaccines and lack of sources. If you aren't willing to find the specific conversations I am referring to, then that's on you but that doesn't mean I need to go out of my way to include you in those conversations. They are public, they are in this thread, you can find them and make yourself involved.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 16, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Considering my involvement in this thread for several months now, I take umbrage at this statement. If you haven't been involved in the conversations that I've been involved in, then your input isn't welcome. My comments were not directed at you, they've been directed at the same individuals that come to this thread with their ill-informed opinions on vaccines and lack of sources. If you aren't willing to find the specific conversations I am referring to, then that's on you but that doesn't mean I need to go out of my way to include you in those conversations. They are public, they are in this thread, you can find them and make yourself involved.



There's an ignore button for a reason.
If you don't want public replies to your post, don't make a public post.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 16, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> There's an ignore button for a reason.
> If you don't want public replies to your post, don't make a public post.


I am not sure if I am misreading your posts of if you don’t understand how the ignore feature works. I am fine with having public posts, that’s how I ended up with over 20K posts. My issue was that my post was very specifically towards those against either this vaccine or vaccines in general. Asking for specific details in regards of who it’s directed at isn’t relevant to that post. There are specific members who have expressed anti-vac views throughout this thread but my post wasn’t just limited to those members. My post is open to anyone willing to provide creditable sources to back up either being against the Covid vaccine or against vaccines in general. Asking me for specific members or pages is just a waste of everyone’s time and not relevant to my post. The post you specifically replied to was also not relevant to my original question.


----------



## elk1007 (Sep 16, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am not sure if I am misreading your posts of if you don’t understand how the ignore feature works. I am fine with having public posts, that’s how I ended up with over 20K posts. My issue was that my post was very specifically towards those against either this vaccine or vaccines in general. Asking for specific details in regards of who it’s directed at isn’t relevant to that post. There are specific members who have expressed anti-vac views throughout this thread but my post wasn’t just limited to those members. My post is open to anyone willing to provide creditable sources to back up either being against the Covid vaccine or against vaccines in general. Asking me for specific members or pages is just a waste of everyone’s time and not relevant to my post. The post you specifically replied to was also not relevant to my original question.



If you ignore my posts, you won't be triggered by them 
You're also welcome to DM members so I can't reply 

So many options, and they all fall upon you.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 16, 2021)

elk1007 said:


> If you ignore my posts, you won't be triggered by them
> You're also welcome to DM members so I can't reply
> 
> So many options, and they all fall upon you.



As an alternative, you could choose to not be a troll? Between the two threads you've jumped into so far, I can't help but feel like you might just be instigating for the thrill of it, which speaks ill of the quality of your character... but by all means, if you want to make a toxic mire around your posts, keep it up.


----------



## tabzer (Sep 16, 2021)

Nothing shouts,"I'm beautiful," louder than the pretentiousness of a self-appointed moral authority.

Right, comrade?


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 16, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Nothing shouts,"I'm beautiful," louder than the pretentiousness of a self-appointed moral authority.
> 
> Right, comrade?



I'd like to think my being pretty has nothing to do with cautioning folk about their flaunting obvious moral failings, but hey, maybe they're related! Since you're here, though...



tabzer said:


> Just here to take a roll call.  Who supports Israel giving out a fourth dose of the "vaccine"?
> 
> @Lacius
> @Dakitten
> ...



This does seem like a good example of Anti-Vax rhetoric recently posted! It is nice to have examples come forth when requested~


----------



## Athira (Sep 16, 2021)

COVID 19 vaccinations work well. They can help you avoid getting and transmitting the COVID-19 virus.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 16, 2021)

Ignoring those previous posts, I will continue with to ask if the those against this vaccine have any peer-reviewed research to back up their concerns? As well, do the anti-vax in this thread have anything substantial?


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 17, 2021)




----------



## The Catboy (Sep 17, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


>



At least your username is a good indication of the crap you are intending to post.


----------



## Foxi4 (Sep 17, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It isn't completely analogous to our current situation, since it does look like our vaccines do indeed lower the odds of contracting the delta variant (but not the viral load in a vaccinated person who suffers a breakthrough infection), but I'm always worried about the evolution of resistance against any mitigation strategy we come up with against any pathogen.
> 
> Even if we had a vaccine that was 99% effective against COVID-19, and we vaccinated 99% of people with it, there's admittedly a huge selective pressure for vaccine resistance. Herd immunity would almost certainly eliminate the the virus in that area of high vaccination, but if there are other parts of the world where the virus isn't eliminated, then each repeated exposure of the virus to the vaccinated population only increases the odds of vaccine resistance developing.
> 
> ...


A fairly concise response, but not one that addresses the core issue. If the vaccine is “leaky” then herd immunity isn’t necessarily a deterrent since the virus continues to mutate in the hosts, we simply don’t get sick from it until it mutates to the point that the vaccine is no longer effective, as is the case with Marek’s. The booster model brings in new concerns that wouldn’t normally apply, but in all fairness, the research showing that Delta continues to be present in the same quantity as pre-vaccination also comes from India where a different vaccine is used (touched upon earlier in the thread), plus we don’t know if the virus is even active or not, only that it is present, so this would require further research which I’m sure is forthcoming. In any case, this new angle gave me some pause for thought and further solidified my belief that we all went the wrong way about the lockdown - I feel that it would’ve been significantly more effective if the jab was distributed *first*, that way we’d all have time away from everyday business that’d allow the vaccinations to take proper effect. No point in crying over milk that has long since soaked into the ground, but weighing the pros and cons the results were somewhat negligible in terms of public health, but devastating economically from the stats I’ve seen so far, which is a bit counterintuitive. Then again, I suppose that nowadays we all shop at supermarkets which are ultimately large gatherings with huge footfall, so it’s not completely unexpected.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 17, 2021)

Foxi4 said:


> A fairly concise response, but not one that addresses the core issue. If the vaccine is “leaky” then herd immunity isn’t necessarily a deterrent since the virus continues to mutate in the hosts, we simply don’t get sick from it until it mutates to the point that the vaccine is no longer effective, as is the case with Marek’s. The booster model brings in new concerns that wouldn’t normally apply, but in all fairness, the research showing that Delta continues to be present in the same quantity as pre-vaccination also comes from India where a different vaccine is used (touched upon earlier in the thread), plus we don’t know if the virus is even active or not, only that it is present, so this would require further research which I’m sure is forthcoming. In any case, this new angle gave me some pause for thought and further solidified my belief that we all went the wrong way about the lockdown - I feel that it would’ve been significantly more effective if the jab was distributed *first*, that way we’d all have time away from everyday business that’d allow the vaccinations to take proper effect. No point in crying over milk that has long since soaked into the ground, but weighing the pros and cons the results were somewhat negligible in terms of public health, but devastating economically from the stats I’ve seen so far, which is a bit counterintuitive. Then again, I suppose that nowadays we all shop at supermarkets which are ultimately large gatherings with huge footfall, so it’s not completely unexpected.


It seems to me the obvious first step should've been an immediate halt on international flights. By the time other measures were put it in place it was too much to overcome.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 18, 2021)

Update: got my first dose of Pfizer 
You barely feel the needle in your arm, after the vaccine (at least for me) I've only had a bit heavier and sore arm. 24h later the pain went away and I feel awesome! Really recommend you to get the jab: the doc told me that in case I will get higher temperature due to jab, take some paracetamol (ask the doctor about exact dosing, I to be honest don't remember it and I don't want to lie to anyone) every ~6 hours and it should be good. 

Of course, everyone will go through it differently, but I hope my jab experience will add to this thread


----------



## Immortallix (Sep 18, 2021)

Just saw an ad for this series. Reminds me of something but I can't quite put my finger on it.




Lilith Valentine said:


> Ignoring those previous posts, I will continue with to ask if the those against this vaccine have any peer-reviewed research to back up their concerns? As well, do the anti-vax in this thread have anything substantial?


Ya I posted about 3 which were quickly dismissed.


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

Nope.  Walked out of a job end of June because they were trying to bully me into having it.  I caught COVID and isolated for 10 days as per government guidelines.  Come payday, they docked me 30% of my wages because I haven't had the vaccine.  People who have had the vaccine and isolated for 10 days got full pay so I was discriminated against for making a choice that was mine to make. Should be a personal choice to have it or not, and nobody should be forced or manipulated into having it.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 18, 2021)

bazamuffin said:


> Nope.  Walked out of a job end of June because they were trying to bully me into having it.  I caught COVID and isolated for 10 days as per government guidelines.  Come payday, they docked me 30% of my wages because I haven't had the vaccine.  Should be a personal choice to have it or not, and nobody should be forced or manipulated into having it.


Free choice to not get the vaccine because of your silly whims means there is also free choice to bully people like that  It's a double-sided sword.


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

tsao said:


> Free choice to not get the vaccine because of your silly whims means there is also free choice to bully people like that  It's a double-sided sword.



I don't wish to bully anyone.  I respect your choice to have it, and will not attempt to ridicule because you don't align with me


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 18, 2021)

bazamuffin said:


> I don't wish to bully anyone.  I respect your choice to have it, and will not attempt to ridicule because you don't align with me


can't really respect people whose reason to not take the vaccine is their stupid whims. 

You're not paying for this goddamn jab, and if you don't have medical obstacles, why are you refusing? Again, freedom is a double-sided sword and your actions have consequences.


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

tsao said:


> can't really respect people whose reason to not take the vaccine is their stupid whims.
> 
> You're not paying for this goddamn jab, and if you don't have medical obstacles, why are you refusing? Again, freedom is a double-sided sword and your actions have consequences.



You're entitled to your opinion, I'd never attempt to take that away from you


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 18, 2021)

bazamuffin said:


> You're entitled to your opinion, I'd never attempt to take that away from you


Is that your only reason? You have the freedom to be an unvaccinated moron, your boss has the right to cut your pay. Yay freedom for everyone!

But not only that, you can also go and find another employer who also is an unvaccinated moron and you both can be unvaccinated morons!
If you claim to love freedom so much, why do you cry like a baby when others exercise their freedoms? Is it "freedom for me to be more vulnerable to C19 but not for thee to get rid of possible danger from the workplace"?


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

Am I crying, or are you?  I have said it should be a choice and I respect your choice to have it


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 18, 2021)

bazamuffin said:


> Am I crying, or are you?  I have said it should be a choice and I respect your choice to have it


And I said it's the employer's choice to cut your wage for being a crybaby over vaccines. Freedom.


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

tsao said:


> And I said it's the employer's choice to cut your wage for being a crybaby over vaccines. Freedom.



Again, your opinion.  To which you are 100% entitled.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 18, 2021)

Alright, kids, time out. Rather than go onto a full half page of "No, you do!", let us cut to the source and settle this.



bazamuffin said:


> Nope.  Walked out of a job end of June because they were trying to bully me into having it.  I caught COVID and isolated for 10 days as per government guidelines.  Come payday, they docked me 30% of my wages because I haven't had the vaccine.  People who have had the vaccine and isolated for 10 days got full pay so I was discriminated against for making a choice that was mine to make. Should be a personal choice to have it or not, and nobody should be forced or manipulated into having it.



This does sound like a gripe,since... y'know... you're bringing it up at all, but at the end of the day, it reminds me of a quote from one of the most powerful pieces of media ever made.









A little less blue than I remember, but you get the idea. @tsao is being a little belligerent about it because your "choice" endangers everyone around you, not completely unlike closing your eyes in a crowded room and throwing haymakers wildly in any direction. Your choice, sure, but if you hit or kill somebody you'll hopefully feel pretty bad well before your rights are taken from you via arrest for being a hazard to the public health. You should consider the science rather than the memes about self immunization and the like, and just go get yourself a jab.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 18, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> @tsao is being a little belligerent about it because your "choice" endangers everyone around you


It's more or less the fact that thanks to entities like muffin we're still far from ending this shit and the pandemic goes on and on. And I'm already tired of this pandemic lifestyle and the restrictions.


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

Sorry you feel that way


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 18, 2021)

bazamuffin said:


> Nope.  Walked out of a job end of June because they were trying to bully me into having it.  I caught COVID and isolated for 10 days as per government guidelines.  Come payday, they docked me 30% of my wages because I haven't had the vaccine.  People who have had the vaccine and isolated for 10 days got full pay so I was discriminated against for making a choice that was mine to make. Should be a personal choice to have it or not, and nobody should be forced or manipulated into having it.



I'm curious, were you notified of the potential repercussions of not getting vaccinated? When your pay was docked, were you classified as "suspended without pay" or something similar along those lines? I can't get behind not getting a vaccination, but I also can't get behind a corporation using that as an excuse to keep their bottom dollar. 

That's one thing I hate the most about a lot of these corporations. I've seen quite a few instances where companies are using the vaccine mandates in ways they shouldn't, which is not to say the mandates are to blame. These corporations should be held responsible for the underhanded tactics they chose to utilize. They're mudding up the waters to line their own pockets, making legitimate science take the fall and look bad in favor of corporate greed.


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> I'm curious, were you notified of the potential repercussions of not getting vaccinated? When your pay was docked, were you classified as "suspended without pay" or something similar along those lines? I can't get behind not getting a vaccination, but I also can't get behind a corporation using that as an excuse to keep their bottom dollar.
> 
> That's one thing I hate the most about a lot of these corporations. I've seen quite a few instances where companies are using the vaccine mandates in ways they shouldn't, which is not to say the mandates are to blame. These corporations should be held responsible for the underhanded tactics they chose to utilize. They're mudding up the waters to line their own pockets, making legitimate science take the fall and look bad in favor of corporate greed.



I was given no prior warning nor was any memo/letter informing staff of this strategy issued.  Plus side in it all, mental health is way better now and am currently enjoying life.  So, it's been both a negative and a positive experience walking away.  I didn't highlight the job thing  as a gripe, merely to state how some companies/organisations threaten and manipulate people for something I believe should be a choice and isn't a legal requirement


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 18, 2021)

bazamuffin said:


> I was given no prior warning nor was any memo/letter informing staff of this strategy issued.  Plus side in it all, mental health is way better now and am currently enjoying life.  So, it's been both a negative and a positive experience walking away.  I didn't highlight the job thing  as a gripe, merely to state how some companies/organisations threaten and manipulate people for something I believe should be a choice and isn't a legal requirement



I can't agree with your view on it being a legal requirement, only in the sense that most vaccinations have been a requirement in some form for literally centuries. However, I do feel that could constitute legal action on your part, should you choose to pursue, as your pay shouldn't have been docked without prior notification. Although, I could easily see a loophole the company can use, but that would require a bit more information that's not my intention to receive. 

At least your mental health has improved. Congratulations on achieving that.


----------



## mightymuffy (Sep 18, 2021)

tsao said:


> It's more or less the fact that thanks to entities like muffin we're still far from ending this shit and the pandemic goes on and on. And I'm already tired of this pandemic lifestyle and the restrictions.


Ssssooo you think if everyone in the world suddenly got vaxxed the pandemic would instantly stop and all restrictions lifted??  No lad, just no... go and do the maths ffs! 

I'm double vaxxed, kinda had to be for my job, not exactly arsed either way, but hey, I guess now I'm 78% less likely to catch a virus that I was only around 33% chance to develop symptoms even if I caught it, and if I were to develop symptoms - less than 1% chance of dying, even at 46 years of age.... Christ I am SSOO relieved for having it! /s
If my fellow muffin man (or anyone else for that matter) wishes not to get vaxxed, more power to them, I've no problem whatsoever! It's being in the same boat as you friggin annoying anti-anti vaxxers that think you're so right and how these people should be hung drawn and quartered that gets on my tits... I'm almost embarrassed to say I'm double vaxxed reading some of these posts on here....


----------



## bazamuffin (Sep 18, 2021)

mightymuffy said:


> Ssssooo you think if everyone in the world suddenly got vaxxed the pandemic would instantly stop and all restrictions lifted??  No lad, just no... go and do the maths ffs!
> 
> I'm double vaxxed, kinda had to be for my job, not exactly arsed either way, but hey, I guess now I'm 78% less likely to catch a virus that I was only around 33% chance to develop symptoms even if I caught it, and if I were to develop symptoms - less than 1% chance of dying, even at 46 years of age.... Christ I am SSOO relieved for having it! /s
> If my fellow muffin man (or anyone else for that matter) wishes not to get vaxxed, more power to them, I've no problem whatsoever! It's being in the same boat as you friggin annoying anti-anti vaxxers that think you're so right and how these people should be hung drawn and quartered that gets on my tits... I'm almost embarrassed to say I'm double vaxxed reading some of these posts on here....



Precisely.  You have been vaxxed, that is your choice and would never question you or try to ridicule you for that.  100% your choice.  I hate how its divided us so much


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 18, 2021)

mightymuffy said:


> I'm almost embarrassed to say I'm double vaxxed reading some of these posts on here....


go devaccinate yourself then, nobody will miss you LOL


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 18, 2021)

mightymuffy said:


> Ssssooo you think if everyone in the world suddenly got vaxxed the pandemic would instantly stop and all restrictions lifted??  No lad, just no... go and do the maths ffs!
> 
> I'm double vaxxed, kinda had to be for my job, not exactly arsed either way, but hey, I guess now I'm 78% less likely to catch a virus that I was only around 33% chance to develop symptoms even if I caught it, and if I were to develop symptoms - less than 1% chance of dying, even at 46 years of age.... Christ I am SSOO relieved for having it! /s
> If my fellow muffin man (or anyone else for that matter) wishes not to get vaxxed, more power to them, I've no problem whatsoever! It's being in the same boat as you friggin annoying anti-anti vaxxers that think you're so right and how these people should be hung drawn and quartered that gets on my tits... I'm almost embarrassed to say I'm double vaxxed reading some of these posts on here....



Oh, joy and rapture, another one... look friendo, you shouldn't flaunt your ignorance by throwing out numbers you clearly don't understand. This kind of behavior is why we have so... so many pages of this topic that should really be fairly cut and dry. I'm glad you've gotten the jab, but that doesn't mean you get to make decisions for the rest of us.

First things first, your health is nice and dandy for you, but the reason it was important that you got the shot wasn't just for your own health. You're right, with good health and not being too old, you might not ever have felt particularly bad symptoms! If the virus then stopped at you, and you chose not to get the jab and nothing significant happened, it would be a relatively safe gamble that thankfully didn't cause harm. Woo. The problem is that viruses are not isolated to just those who get really sick. You might still have spread it to a couple folk, maybe even more, and then the gamble gets worse and with escalating odds that keeps going up and up as it mutates and spreads in a population.

The vaccine helps to choke the virus off from potential hosts and limit spread. It'd be nice if it had greater efficacy, sure, but if everyone had it, herd immunity would possibly already be well underway with eliminating the virus altogether. Let me reiterate that. NO MORE VIRUS! Can one say that with certainty? No, but the odds would be decent and we'd all be better off than we are now for sure. There is no detriment to people vaccinating.

Now, on the flip side, "free choice" enthusiasts can continue to polish their grey matter to a smooth mirror shine while ranting about free choice, but they become potential bio-terrorists that can spread the disease along until it mutates and further reduces the efficacy of the current vaccine for those who have the jab, or even worse, spread it to those who CAN'T get the vaccine due to issues beyond their control.

This isn't a "more power to those who don't want it" sort of situation, this is an attack on society's ability to handle a pandemic thanks to some weirdos who don't like being told they have to consider the rights and freedoms of their neighbors too. I know many on this site think they've read and understood the fountainhead and now they're certain absolute libertarianism is where the world is headed, but it isn't where society is (or really should ever be) and we each have an obligation to not try and kill each other and ourselves with stubborn idiocy.


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 18, 2021)

_They’re forcing my family to have to hide out. This is what speaking up looks like. Millions of poor people are treated this way by the ppl you think are the ‘good guys.’ This is unconscionable.”_

_“Threatening my family in Trinidad won’t bode well for you.”_

The Guardian Media journalist from Trinidad – Sharlene Rampersad – reached out to Minaj’s cousin, who she refers to as ‘Mr. Daniel,’ in a private chat on WhatsApp. She explained that CNN was also in the country “looking” for him and they would “not hesitate” to dox him and his girlfriend if they found them.

The reporter then shamelessly tries to claim that the man’s identity, and where his loved ones lived, would be safe if he completed an interview with Guardian Media.

Minaj’s cousin never responded to the intimidation.

From the messages posted by Minaj to her Instagram:

_“My name is Sharlene Rampersad, I am a reporter with Guardian Media._

_I was hoping to speak to you for an article. Would that be possible? – I am also hoping I have a conversation with your friend._

I know you are hesitant to speak with us.

_But just letting you know, CNN is in the country looking for you – And when they find you, they won’t hesitate to reveal where you live or where your gf[girlfriend] live…anything and anyone who is tied to you._

_If you speak to me, we won’t reveal those details. _

_So, what do you say?_

Ms. Minaj is now awake. Some of us have been shaking some of you for a long time and you just roll over and hit snooze.  Maybe one day it will dawn on you those crazy conspiracy theorists from the interwebz might have something worth listenin' to.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 18, 2021)

Imagine pretending Nikki Minaj is an authority on _any_ subject rather than just another vapid D-list celebrity looking to distract from one scandal by using another.

And ending the post with a RATM song, really?  You realize the machine they're raging against is capitalism and not medical science, right?


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 19, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> _They’re forcing my family to have to hide out. This is what speaking up looks like. Millions of poor people are treated this way by the ppl you think are the ‘good guys.’ This is unconscionable.”_
> 
> _“Threatening my family in Trinidad won’t bode well for you.”_
> 
> ...




Something... like Nikki Minaj... no. Just no. Do not go past go, do not collect 200 dollars, go directly to crazyland and leave this thread alone. The way you snipped it, it doesn't even belong here.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 19, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> _They’re forcing my family to have to hide out. This is what speaking up looks like. Millions of poor people are treated this way by the ppl you think are the ‘good guys.’ This is unconscionable.”_
> 
> _“Threatening my family in Trinidad won’t bode well for you.”_
> 
> ...



I ain't reading any of this, I am just going to ask for sources. You got any sources?


bazamuffin said:


> Nope.  Walked out of a job end of June because they were trying to bully me into having it.  I caught COVID and isolated for 10 days as per government guidelines.  Come payday, they docked me 30% of my wages because I haven't had the vaccine.  People who have had the vaccine and isolated for 10 days got full pay so I was discriminated against for making a choice that was mine to make. Should be a personal choice to have it or not, and nobody should be forced or manipulated into having it.


Not being vaccinated is not a protected status. You are the one who chose to not be vaccinated and your work had chosen to see that as a reason to dock your pay. I honestly hope we start seeing more workplaces docking the pay of people who are posing a threat to the rest of their staff. Not being vaccinated is a threat to everyone else and should be treated as such. The only expectation is those with preexisting conditions, which in most cases, are most likely either not working with too many people or are working in limited capacities or should really be working from home for their own safety.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 19, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Not being vaccinated is not a protected status. You are the one who chose to not be vaccinated and your work had chosen to see that as a reason to dock your pay. I honestly hope we start seeing more workplaces docking the pay of people who are posing a threat to the rest of their staff. Not being vaccinated is a threat to everyone else and should be treated as such. The only expectation is those with preexisting conditions, which in most cases, are most likely either not working with too many people or are working in limited capacities or should really be working from home for their own safety.


They didn't dock pay which would be discriminatory. They just didn't give the full statutory sick pay during self-isolation which is a different thing, although I'm not sure of any legal ramifications there but I assume it's allowed as (mentioned previously) a large supermarket also decided to do this (and faced quite a large boycott as a result but I assume nothing more).


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 19, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> They didn't dock pay which would be discriminatory. They just didn't give the full statutory sick pay during self-isolation which is a different thing, although I'm not sure of any legal ramifications there but I assume it's allowed as (mentioned previously) a large supermarket also decided to do this (and faced quite a large boycott as a result but I assume nothing more).


Ah, I still stand by my statements though. Those refusing to be vaccinated are a threat to their workplace and should see some form of ramification if something happens, like not getting full sick leave if they get covid.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 19, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Ah, I still stand by my statements though. Those refusing to be vaccinated are a threat to their workplace and should see some form of ramification if something happens, like not getting full sick leave if they get covid.


I've been trying harder to err on the side of kindness and compassion as I get older, but I do understand the sentiment and frustration. It's possible we'd have better success with the former though rather than making people feel bad for being too scared to do something. I've actually had good results from being nice, answering questions and explaining things sincerely (in person not online) when dealing with people with doubts and concerns.


----------



## smf (Sep 19, 2021)

mightymuffy said:


> I'm double vaxxed, kinda had to be for my job, not exactly arsed either way, but hey, I guess now I'm 78% less likely to catch a virus that I was only around 33% chance to develop symptoms even if I caught it, and if I were to develop symptoms - less than 1% chance of dying, even at 46 years of age



After 219 million cases and 4.55 million deaths worldwide then reducing hospitalizations and deaths is a huge deal.

Especially when you consider that to even keep the death toll to 4.55 million, we had to shut down so many businesses and stay at home.

The "it's less than 1% chance" is misleading because it sounds like a small number, but even small percentages of 7.674 billion people is still a very large number.



subcon959 said:


> I've been trying harder to err on the side of kindness and compassion as I get older, but I do understand the sentiment and frustration. It's possible we'd have better success with the former though rather than making people feel bad for being too scared to do something. I've actually had good results from being nice, answering questions and explaining things sincerely (in person not online) when dealing with people with doubts and concerns.



When the majority of people who aren't vaccinated are unable to accept sincere explanations without diving into some deep state delusion, I'm not sure that your strategy will work.

The only thing that seems to work on individuals is when they are about to die they tell all their friends they were wrong and they should get vaccinated. Those pleas don't appear to have any effect on the people who aren't currently hospitalized though.



subcon959 said:


> They just didn't give the full statutory sick pay during self-isolation which is a different thing, although I'm not sure of any legal ramifications there but I assume it's allowed as (mentioned previously) a large supermarket also decided to do this (and faced quite a large boycott as a result but I assume nothing more).



The term statutory would seem to be relevant here (at least in the UK).

_The tribunal found it easy to come to a decision in this case; there's nothing in the SSP Regulations which refers to self-inflicted injuries. The rules simply say that where an employee is “unfit for work due to incapacity or illness” he or she is entitled to receive SSP
_
However, if your contract says that you are entitled to more than statutory but they deem it's self inflicted then I'm sure that they could drop to SSP.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 19, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I've been trying harder to err on the side of kindness and compassion as I get older, but I do understand the sentiment and frustration. It's possible we'd have better success with the former though rather than making people feel bad for being too scared to do something. I've actually had good results from being nice, answering questions and explaining things sincerely (in person not online) when dealing with people with doubts and concerns.


I tend to be pretty chill but this is kind of one area where there's a clear threat to others that can't be respected in my book. I want to be kind but it's getting to the point where it's just unacceptable. I guess I could try to be kinder though.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 19, 2021)

smf said:


> After 219 million cases and 4.55 million deaths worldwide then reducing hospitalizations and deaths is a huge deal.
> 
> Especially when you consider that to even keep the death toll to 4.55 million, we had to shut down so many businesses and stay at home.
> 
> ...



Its getting harder and harder to not adopt a "let em all just die off" kind of attitude considering all the statistics and science behind it that's provable. Unfortunately, dealing with issues like this are in the same vein as drug dealers and piracy; you need to attack the source, in this case politicized science, because a lot of people are just too dumb to do reputable research and believe what their political ideology aligns with. It's all a big cluster fuck and we're all caught in the middle.


----------



## smf (Sep 19, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> Its getting harder and harder to not adopt a "let em all just die off" kind of attitude considering all the statistics and science behind it that's provable.



It's their choice if they want to join a death cult, but I shouldn't be forced to stay at home to avoid them.

I find it particularly outrageous that some care home workers are complaining that they are being told that they either get vaccinated or they will lose their jobs. Supposedly they are upset because they just want to look after people, but of course not enough to get vaccinated (because someone on facebook told them not to).



ConspiracyFactualist said:


> _They’re forcing my family to have to hide out. This is what speaking up looks like. Millions of poor people are treated this way by the ppl you think are the ‘good guys.’ This is unconscionable.”_
> 
> _“Threatening my family in Trinidad won’t bode well for you.”_



She's mistaken, they just want to offer medical support to the guy with huge testicles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-58571353

It appears he might not actually exist though.

_My cousin in Trinidad won’t get the vaccine cuz his friend got it & became impotent. His testicles became swollen. His friend was weeks away from getting married, now the girl called off the wedding. So just pray on it & make sure you’re comfortable with ur decision, not bullied_

Yeah, make sure you're comfortable with your decision and not manipulated by some bullshit you got off some singers twitter feed.

Nicki Minaj is bullying people to not have it, she has zero morals & neither has anyone who sides with her


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 19, 2021)

smf said:


> _My cousin in Trinidad won’t get the vaccine cuz his friend got it & became impotent. His testicles became swollen. His friend was weeks away from getting married, now the girl called off the wedding. So just pray on it & make sure you’re comfortable with ur decision, not bullied_
> 
> Yeah, make sure you're comfortable with your decision and not manipulated by some bullshit you got off some singers twitter feed.
> 
> Nicki Minaj is bullying people to not have it, she has zero morals & neither has anyone who sides with her


I used to live in Trinidad and they still have Obeah practices there so yeah.. it's tough to educate people like that about modern medicine.


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 20, 2021)

smf said:


> It's their choice if they want to join a death cult, but I shouldn't be forced to stay at home to avoid them.



Why would you need to stay at home you are vaccinated so you are protected, umm right?

Oh it doesn't do anything so you have to blame the unvaccinated when you still get sick?

If the vaccine worked it wouldn't matter if the entire world except you were unvaccinated, you'd be protected. It fails at it's only job and you admit it. That's why it's now 3 vaccines and a booster I think. They keep adding more things on yet you still blame the unvaccinated instead of the people that sold you snake oil.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



smf said:


> It's their choice if they want to join a death cult, but I shouldn't be forced to stay at home to avoid them.
> 
> I find it particularly outrageous that some care home workers are complaining that they are being told that they either get vaccinated or they will lose their jobs. Supposedly they are upset because they just want to look after people, but of course not enough to get vaccinated (because someone on facebook told them not to).
> 
> ...



She didn't bully anyone to not have it you made that up. She only spoke the truth about it causing her cousin to become impotent and it cost him a marriage and she's been attacked and threatened and her family threatened ever since. She's one of you guys you know she's a Democrat it's amazing how fast you will turn on your own. Blacks Lives matter until they speak the truth then they don't matter at all I guess?

Not just her Larry Elders and Candace Owens and any other black person that doesn't act like good little slaves they no longer matter. Just proves Democrats don't give a shit about black people unless it helps their cause. You all support a sick group of people that don't care about you either and they would turn on you the second you didn't follow their orders. But this is what you want because they've got you brainwashed.

I have a ton of issues with the Republican party too it's not solely about Democrat vs Republican. It's about this worshipping of Government The Government is supposed to exist to serve our needs not the other way around.


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 20, 2021)

@ConspiracyFactualist you clearly don't understand how vaccines work and what they are meant for, so go get educated and come back here when you actually have something clever to say, alright?


----------



## Immortallix (Sep 20, 2021)

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.11.20191940v1
Pre-print but I'm sure you could look at the methods used and decide if its legitimate or not yourself, instead of waiting for some peer review stamp. 



Vid just summarizes the study, but I thought it would be good to boost black voices


----------



## smf (Sep 20, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> Why would you need to stay at home you are vaccinated so you are protected, umm right?



That isn't how vaccines work.

A good analogy is it's important that the brakes on my car work, but it's equally important that the brakes on everyone elses car work too. Yet even when everyone has good working brakes, I can still have an accident. Just not as many accidents as if half the people don't have brakes.



ConspiracyFactualist said:


> Oh it doesn't do anything so you have to blame the unvaccinated when you still get sick?



I see that your user name is ironic, because you're full of shit.



ConspiracyFactualist said:


> She didn't bully anyone to not have it you made that up. She only spoke the truth about it causing her cousin to become impotent and it cost him a marriage and she's been attacked and threatened and her family threatened ever since.



No, telling people that if they do something then something bad will happen to them is bullying.

It wasn't her cousin, you got that wrong. It was a friend of her cousin. The important thing to remember here is we don't know if Nicki Minaj is lying, we don't know if her cousin is lying, we don't know if her cousins friend is lying.

I don't believe this man exists, but if he does then:

1. It's not evidence that the vaccine he received caused it. Yet Nicki Minaj purposefully didn't put any kind of balance in her piece

2. He received a different vaccine than is used in the US. Yet Nicki Minaj purposefully didn't mention that.

3. He is better off knowing know just how shit the woman was he was about to marry, he is better off without her. Even if it was, more likely, caused by a sexually transmitted disease he caught from her. If he caught it from anyone else then it's his own fault.

4. In what world is it ok to shame a guy who has been dumped, has swollen testicles and can't maintain an erection. All just to bully people into not having a vaccine.

It doesn't matter what party she supports, this isn't a school yard game.

If this is Nicki Minaj's "own research" then it's shit, she has a responsibility to not post this shit to her followers.

If any one them die from covid after not having a vaccine, then she should be legally culpable (as should all the vaccine conspiracy lunatics who post online).

Want to do your own research, get an education & go to a lab. Don't trawl through twitter or facebook looking for things you agree with to reinforce your confirmation bias. Wake up sheeple.



ConspiracyFactualist said:


> I have a ton of issues with the Republican party too it's not solely about Democrat vs Republican. It's about this worshipping of Government The Government is supposed to exist to serve our needs not the other way around.



They are serving you, they have provided a vaccine for free and are trying to make sure that everyone gets it. Mean while there are a load of people who are acting like children who "don't wanna" and are having a mental break down. The government has to balance your insane ramblings against the safety of normal level headed people.

Try a thought experiment, imagine you believe that the vaccine is real and doesn't have gps trackers or is designed to kill people off and is safe enough & you need to convince people that believe whatever it is you believe. How do you think they should do it?


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 20, 2021)

If you support these Democrats you either are not paying attention or you love someone telling you what to do while they do the opposite. There's no 3rd option.

San Francisco Mayor London Breed (D) responded to criticisms to her night out partying, violating the city’s mask mandate, contending that people “don’t need to fun police” to “micromanage” what they should be doing.

Last week, Breed went to the city’s Black Cat nightclub and spoke to the San Francisco Chronicle’s Mariecar Mendoza, who spotted her at the venue and observed that the Democrat mayor did not wear a face covering throughout the night, despite local restrictions requiring “almost everyone” to wear a face covering in indoor public spaces.


Breed, however, has addressed criticisms, claiming she did “everything I thought that was appropriate.”

*“We don’t need the fun police to come in and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn’t be doing,” she said during an interview, contending she was drinking at the time and started dancing because she was “feeling the spirit” and “wasn’t thinking about a mask,” according to reports.*

*“No. I’m not going to sip and put my mask on, sip and put my mask up, eat and put my mask on,” she stated. “While I’m eating and drinking, I’m gonna keep my mask off.”*

Currently, current public health orders state that “almost everyone must wear a mask” in the city.

“You must now wear a mask in indoor public buildings even if you are fully vaccinated,” the city’s website reads.







--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Oh the precious vaccine that only exists for good and anyone who doesn't take it is a scumbag who should be locked up.


----------



## Arecaidian Fox (Sep 20, 2021)

Oh wow, another conspiracy-peddling moron. Never saw that one coming /s


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 20, 2021)

Arecaidian Fox said:


> Oh wow, another conspiracy-peddling moron. Never saw that one coming /s



Name one thing in my post that's a conspiracy and not true. And go...

Completely lazy minded post meant to discredit the person and not the info I'm posting. Never saw that one coming /s


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 20, 2021)

It's even worse than that, your only addition to the thread is unfounded, unproved claims with added "democrats bad" sugar on top. Nothing useful, nothing proven, nothing interesting. And you even take the luxury of insulting other members, how cool is that?


----------



## Arecaidian Fox (Sep 20, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> Name one thing in my post that's a conspiracy and not true. And go...
> 
> Completely lazy minded post meant to discredit the person and not the info I'm posting. Never saw that one coming /s


I'm not going to waste effort. You're not worth any more of my time than me pointing and laughing.


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 20, 2021)

Immortallix said:


> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.11.20191940v1
> Pre-print but I'm sure you could look at the methods used and decide if its legitimate or not yourself, instead of waiting for some peer review stamp.
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah I've seen nothing that shows they give a shit if you've had the virus and you have antibodies at all. A doctor lost his job because he said he didn't need the vaccine because he has antibodies, they fired him anyway.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 20, 2021)

yes 1 irresponsible mayor did stupid sh#$ automatically cancelled all COVID DEATHs and Vaccine mandate... thats how that works...Yup lol


----------



## djpannda (Sep 20, 2021)

yes 1 irresponsible mayor did stupid sh#$ automatically cancelled all COVID DEATHs and Vaccine mandate... thats how that works...Yup lol


----------



## ghjfdtg (Sep 20, 2021)

@Arecaidian Fox
They even have become self aware as the user name shows


----------



## djpannda (Sep 20, 2021)

ghjfdtg said:


> @Arecaidian Fox
> They even have become self aware as the user name shows


lol at this point we arguing with "big foot/ Loch Ness" people... There no helping him  no matter all the proof against them  and no one will break their fantasy its like they love being manipulated ..


----------



## smf (Sep 20, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> Name one thing in my post that's a conspiracy and not true.



Name one thing that is a conspiracy.


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 20, 2021)

To be fair, there have been real conspiracies. That worked or were openly dismantled, as a matter of fact. The lightbulb one for example is actually documented and known. The harem one in ancient Egypt is a well-documented one too, that didn't work and led to arrests and condemnations of the conspirators. The covid theories are not documented with any useful and provable element, and have nothing at all that can prove them. And they are very, very expensive in terms of hypotheses, in particular asking us to buy the fact that things were done with malice in mind, when in most cases stupidity is enough to explain those things. So yeah, they're moot, at best.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 20, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> Yeah I've seen nothing that shows they give a shit if you've had the virus and you have antibodies at all. A doctor lost his job because he said he didn't need the vaccine because he has antibodies, they fired him anyway.


maybe because Antibodies obtained from Covid has WIDE range of Strength and Longevity. There have been Many people that have gotten COVID multiple times as Natural antibodies lasted less then 6 month for some individuals. ... I mean if you were a Cert. DOCTOR HE WOULD KNOW THAT... but hey,,



Thats like saying I GOT my FLU SHOT 4 years ago, why did I need another Shot this Year... Thats not how some antibodies work


----------



## djpannda (Sep 20, 2021)

CharlesCKaufman said:


> Which vaccine is better?


studies are still being done with he Delta but over all Moderna seem to be stronger against delta. If your not able to pick Either one will help yourself and loved ones.


----------



## 0x3000027E (Sep 20, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> If you support these Democrats you either are not paying attention or you love someone telling you what to do while they do the opposite. There's no 3rd option.
> 
> San Francisco Mayor London Breed (D) responded to criticisms to her night out partying, violating the city’s mask mandate, contending that people “don’t need to fun police” to “micromanage” what they should be doing.
> 
> ...


I'm not understanding this post at all, sir. Are you just coming to the realization that state/federal governments march to a different tune? These references suggest you are perplexed with the idea! Your entire post can be summed up as: "Politician does not follow what they preach". I'm not sure you have been following US politics for all that long if this is the case. I'm sorry you have had to awaken to such a nightmare.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



djpannda said:


> studies are still being done with he Delta but over all Moderna seem to be stronger against delta. If your not able to pick Either one will help yourself and loved ones.


J&J vaccine never gets a fair shake, and that's unfortunate.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 20, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> Why would you need to stay at home you are vaccinated so you are protected, umm right?
> 
> Oh it doesn't do anything so you have to blame the unvaccinated when you still get sick?
> 
> ...


Sources?


----------



## 0x3000027E (Sep 21, 2021)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Sources?


Source-Any media outlet practicing yellow journalism and sensationalism. Eh, its how they get paid after all.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 21, 2021)

0x3000027E said:


> Source-Any media outlet practicing yellow journalism and sensationalism. Eh, its how they get paid after all.


I didn’t read a single word of that post, I just want to see if he will actually post something other than a word salad.


ConspiracyFactualist said:


> Name one thing in my post that's a conspiracy and not true. And go...
> 
> Completely lazy minded post meant to discredit the person and not the info I'm posting. Never saw that one coming /s


You got any sources for any of your posts?


----------



## sith (Sep 21, 2021)

Amazing how many moron temper's like smf and others advocate the removal of the basic human right to refuse medical care, how about we just have the government make all personal medical decisions for you and have the government run you like you're a tesla or an iphone. I believe your body belongs to you as an individual but you lot think it belongs to the collective/commune.


----------



## SG854 (Sep 21, 2021)

Only a sith deals in absolutes


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 21, 2021)

Ah yes, your freedumb. All that freedumb is what's letting this virus stay up and spread longer and further and mutate faster which in turn endangers even more people.

It's simple logic, really. If we got a lot more people vaccinated, practice social distancing, wore masks, etc. we would have slowed down the spread of infection, slow down the mutations of the virus, and maybe get out of this mess much sooner along with a lot less deaths. But, of course, it's nowhere close to ending because some hard-headed fools keep shouting for their freedumb and causing more trouble to everyone's actual freedom.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 21, 2021)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Ah yes, your freedumb.


I agree with the rest of your post but I'm really concerned about the use of this new euphemism.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 21, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I agree with the rest of your post but I'm really concerned about the use of this new euphemism.


Because they have the *freedom* to choose to get the vaccine or not, yes? But making the *dumb* choice to not get the vaccine, especially when it's freely available, can cause more harm to other people and to themselves.

It's ironic, honestly. They talk about their "freedom" when said thing is actually what's restricting theirs and everyone else's actual freedom and more.

In all honesty, I'm just fed up with all of this. As more time passes and the numbers of cases/deaths increases, it becomes more and more frustrating. Especially when there are also other people that are dying and suffering from other medical conditions outside of COVID-19, but can't get into hospitals because every bed and such are occupied by mostly people being sick with COVID-19, most of which being unvaccinated.


----------



## Immortallix (Sep 21, 2021)

I realize freedom may be too radical and anti-evil a notion for some of the authoritarians in the thread, so I'd like to share Dr. Robert Malone's medical argument for why this vaccine mandate and obsession with getting as many people vaccinated as possible, will actually make things worse in the long run. Malone being one of the guys that spearheaded development on mrna tech, I think he's a pretty good authority.

Here's the important bit I've clipped out:

https://streamable.com/13hycf

The full video:


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> Amazing how many moron temper's like smf and others advocate the removal of the basic human right to refuse medical care, how about we just have the government make all personal medical decisions for you and have the government run you like you're a tesla or an iphone. I believe your body belongs to you as an individual but you lot think it belongs to the collective/commune.


that's a lot of words for an anti-vax dumbass


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> Amazing how many moron temper's like smf and others advocate the removal of the basic human right to refuse medical care, how about we just have the government make all personal medical decisions for you and have the government run you like you're a tesla or an iphone. I believe your body belongs to you as an individual but you lot think it belongs to the collective/commune.


Nobody's refusing you that right. We're only insisting, time and time again, on *our own right* to *not have to fucking deal with you morons* if you decide to not care for yourselves and for us. Like, you don't want to be someone safe to be around to? Then respect that we don't want to be around you. Simple as that.


----------



## sith (Sep 21, 2021)

I take responsibility for myself and my decisions, its not the governments role to enforce absolute safety, You all forget the adage of Benjamin Franklin that “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

you hand in your freedom at the first ask to those that funded the gain of function creation of this virus. they provide the problem, they provide the solution, we remain subservient.


----------



## Deleted member 568468 (Sep 21, 2021)

sith i beg you quit consuming conspiracy theories


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> I take responsibility for myself and my decisions, its not the governments role to enforce absolute safety, You all forget the adage of Benjamin Franklin that “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”
> 
> you hand in your freedom at the first ask to those that funded the gain of function creation of this virus. they provide the problem, they provide the solution, we remain subservient.


It is not. They are not forcing you to get vaccinated. But *we get to decide that we do not want to be around you if you are not*, and they are not enforcing that either. What can be eventually enforced is to have you removed from places you are not welcome to by force, if you insist on getting there while not invited until this whole thing is over. And that's your liberty to insist on being there, as it is their liberty to have you removed if they don't want you there.

Unless you're literally arguing that your liberty is fine but ours is not? In which case, please stop using citations from people who would not be in agreement with you, that's all kinds of wrong

To be clear: this is not a removal of liberty, this is ensuring the respect of the liberties of those who want to keep themselves and their beloved ones safe. You are still free to be an asshole to those people, but then bear the consequences of overstepping their liberty


----------



## djpannda (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> its not the governments role to enforce absolute safety,


you mean public safety ? lol I love how you guys act like this is the first time the Government does something about public safety I mean they don't have TRAFFIC LIGHTS, STOP SIGNS, SEATBELTS, SPEED LIMITS, HOUSING/ BUILDING CODES, SCHOOL VACCINATIONS, .yea don't have those were you are from?..... oh they do.... so.. I guess your cherry picking...


----------



## sith (Sep 21, 2021)

So easy to bully someone into submission with categorically false labels and broad sweeping generalizations, heaven forbid an intellectual discussion occur.  I never said anything negative towards the vaccine or said the government has not tried to enforce unjust laws, or shouldnt make laws that help everyone get along, however this has not stopped the framing as though i have with "anti-vax" and "conspiracy theorist" labels. There should be more open discussion and debate but every "genius" comes out of the woodwork to moderate the allowable topics/perspectives. So many black and white opinions with false analogies and logical fallacies used to fool people. My opinions closely align with those expressed by Dr. Malone in the clip posted by immorallix.


edit: can we try and be civil? the first thing i know is how little i know, i try to be informed before making choices and want to always leave room to change my mind with good evidence/argument, but i have not been swayed in these 150 pages. I want the best for every stranger but to me that means standing up for that persons right to do as they decide even if it makes no sense to me. 

I always wear my seatbelt. If someone stupidly doesn't and gets hurt i'll gladly pay whatever taxes so they can be treated and support their right to endanger themselves in the future.


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 21, 2021)

Benjamin Franklin? You mean the guy that help fight the smallpox?


----------



## djpannda (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> I always wear my seatbelt. If someone stupidly doesn't and gets hurt i'll gladly pay whatever taxes so they can be treated and support their right to endanger themselves in the future.


Oh I guess you don’t understand how laws work .. they NO LONGER have a right to drive without a seatbelt..doing so is break the public safety  law.


----------



## smf (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> Amazing how many moron temper's like smf and others advocate the removal of the basic human right to refuse medical care, how about we just have the government make all personal medical decisions for you and have the government run you like you're a tesla or an iphone.



Well you could pay out of your own pocket for self harm, but I don't see why other people should pay for your mistakes.



sith said:


> I believe your body belongs to you as an individual but you lot think it belongs to the collective/commune.



You think the collective commune should save you, after you've actively tried to destroy the collective commune.

Anyone advocating not having a vaccine should be culpable for the deaths of the people who listen to them.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 21, 2021)

smf said:


> Anyone advocating not having a vaccine should be culpable for the deaths of the people who listen to them.


Just to play Devil's advocate for a second here, are we culpable if someone dies as a direct result (medically proved of course) of taking the vaccine due to our advocacy?


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> Amazing how many moron temper's like smf and others advocate the removal of the basic human right to refuse medical care, how about we just have the government make all personal medical decisions for you and have the government run you like you're a tesla or an iphone. I believe your body belongs to you as an individual but you lot think it belongs to the collective/commune.





sith said:


> edit: can we try and be civil?



You're not very good at this, are you? 

It's your freedom to deny to the vaccine, just like it's everyone else's freedom to fire your at will for not getting vaccinated, to treat you differently because of it, so on and so forth. Your freedom to unvaccinate does not supercede everyone else's freedoms, and to complain only about your freedom and not the collective is entirely selfish and hypocritical. 

The fact is, mandates have been around for over 100 years, and the only reason why it's an issue now is because science has become politicized


----------



## sith (Sep 21, 2021)

smf, i named you earlier because you are the shining example of how not to think, fascist authoritarian, take some personal responsibility, if you listen to some chump on the internet and something bad happens YOU are the one at fault not the chump.

i've never advocated anyone get or not get the vaccine, I believe that's a personal choice that should not be forced on the masses, only suggested/encouraged. Liberty is a great gift and if we throw it away without regard we are doomed to be mistreated in the future.

syphenfreht cause you say i'm not good doesn't mean thats true. people can look at your arguments and judge for themselves who is good at what. Your "Freedom" to bully and shame people is not analogous to peoples right to not be injected with new/experimental medications, you don't understand "freedom" very well. 

you think things being "mandated" started 100 years ago? you think because something has been done before or for a while means its good or ok or beyond question?


----------



## djpannda (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> you think things being "mandated" started 100 years ago? you think because something has been done before or for a while means its good or ok or beyond question?


the issue is Most people never complained about public safety mandates, They never thought about it. seat belts school vaccines, traffic laws .. ... but the it seems with the Rise of a political loss arose spitefulness. Which is why most people are fuzzing about it. I didnt hear anything when most high school requested Hep c vaccines in early 2000s.. but Trump loses and now the vaccines is CCP!

AND YES this is a PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE not a VACCINE ISSUE... 
as 676k dead Americans. and 4.5mill worldwide.... its Public Safety and it overrides your made-up individual freedom in ....now this is the IMPORTANT PART.... PUBLIC AREAS...


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> i've never advocated anyone get or not get the vaccine, I believe that's a personal choice that should not be forced on the masses, only suggested/encouraged. Liberty is a great gift and if we throw it away without regard we are doomed to be mistreated in the future.



The risks and benefits of getting vaccinated vs not getting vaccinated have been crushed by people far smarter than us and the data is very clearly pro-vaccine. This is the same that happened with the various laws that make it illegal to operate a car while drunk. It's not the drunk individual's choice alone when they operate a car while drunk, their behavior directly endangers everyone else on the road due to the altered mental state and resulting slower reaction times plus worse motor skills. If you compare the vaccine to wearing a seatbelt you're missing the part where wearing a seatbelt only (directly) hurts the wearer, but the burden on the tax payer is still severe enough that fining people for not wearing one is just. In a perfect world those fines will off-set their hospital bills enough that the people that drive safe won't be affected unduly with higher tax or insurance burdens.

This all also circles back to the Freedom the government ensures to everyone. People with a license and a car have the freedom to use the roads the government built and do so without having to constantly look out for people swerving their cars around wildly. If you respect not just your own freedom but the freedom of other people the only logical conclusion is that you ensure you don't make the roads unsafe for others, meaning you drive by the laws. By ensuring you and everyone else follow the same driving laws the roads remain safe and are more easily and efficiently to use by everyone. In the same vein if you actually value other people's freedom to go about their life without fear of getting infected for no good reason by a disease that has a save vaccine you will get that vaccine so everyone can enjoy their own freedom how they see fit. If you instead believe society should just accept the potential threat in the form of unvaccinated individuals, and the resulting tax and insurance burdens as those individuals get more sick than the others, you are not for freedom for everyone, you're just for selfishness.

Also, the government wants as many people as possible vaccinated because it's literally basically free compared to the cost of hospitalizations. We're talking somewhere in the range of every dollar spent on vaccines saves a couple hundred in hospitalization and related care fees. If the vaccine wouldn't work they would not spend multiple hundreds of millions on it to get it to people.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 21, 2021)

sith said:


> smf, i named you earlier because you are the shining example of how not to think, fascist authoritarian, take some personal responsibility, if you listen to some chump on the internet and something bad happens YOU are the one at fault not the chump.
> 
> i've never advocated anyone get or not get the vaccine, I believe that's a personal choice that should not be forced on the masses, only suggested/encouraged. Liberty is a great gift and if we throw it away without regard we are doomed to be mistreated in the future.
> 
> ...



I didn't specifically say you were or weren't good, I asked a question. If you infer otherwise, you are responsible for how you take it. 

You call out smf and call him a fascist authoritarian, despite vaccinations being mandated in a capitalist democracy, and then complain about bullying? That comes across as hypocritical. 

Bringing me to my next point, I never bullied or shamed you. Just because we disagree and I point out hypocrisy and fallacies with your statement doesn't mean I'm bullying you. You're victimizing yourself because you've run out of valid argument. 

Just because it's always been done doesn't mean it's right, but when before have we had country wide issues with vaccinations that far outweigh the benefits of getting vaccine? At what point in history has the populace been misled in terms of vaccine mandates? What difference is there between this mandate and the dozens of others we've had? 

You can't come in here, post bogus opinions, backpedal and attack when you get called out, and then complain of being bullied. That's a sure fire way to stray from a civil conversation.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 21, 2021)

RAHelllord said:


> If the vaccine wouldn't work they would not spend multiple hundreds of millions on it to get it to people.



I guess your forgetting the Tracking device/5G in the vaccines ..


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 21, 2021)

Funny because I'm pretty sure I answered that bullshit about bullying or enforcing like twice already.
Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. But if people don't want to get the vaccine or to follow the rules, they have to accept that other people will not want them in their lives. How is that any kind of bullying or enforcement???


----------



## djpannda (Sep 21, 2021)

Even Family guy, in joining in the fun


----------



## djpannda (Sep 21, 2021)

Even Family guy, in joining in the fun


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 21, 2021)

https://www.bitchute.com/video/HO2cW6ueCjYF/
For those who love abortions and vaccines, all in one! That's just a joke, the video explains it in much better detail and depth.


More fantastic vaccine news from actual doctors to boot!

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't get the vaccine, it's one's choice, but at least get all the facts and don't deliberately ignore the facts you don't agree with. Also, having sources is important for talking about almost anything, as most sources are in the descriptions of the vids I share so it's easy access, but considering this is a computer forum and I assume most people spend a lot of time online all day, why can't one do research and find out some of this stuff themselves? You literally have the most powerful tool to find out almost anything you want yet you complain you don't have enough information or sources when you can easily look up most things yourselves. And look at both sides, not just the stuff you agree with. Again, not saying one shouldn't show sources, but with the power of the internet at your fingertips, what's the other person's excuse other than laziness? But that's just how I see it. Even if some see it as "trolling", even though it isn't. And for whatever reason people don't want to listen to doctors unless it's their lord and savior Dr. Fauci when others have just as much or more experience than him anyways, but still complain about unfounded sources when some people themselves are qualified doctors. What makes him better than other doctors? Just because the media and politicians says Fauci is?

But I digress, get the vaccine or not, just be careful and now what you're doing and be sure it's what *you *what to do, and not what others bullies you or threatens you into doing. Don't like my freedom of choice? Then allow me to spread my asscheeks so you may kiss it lol


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> https://www.bitchute.com/video/HO2cW6ueCjYF/
> For those who love abortions and vaccines, all in one! That's just a joke, the video explains it in much better detail and depth.
> 
> 
> ...




FFS, you post a video without source links from a youtuber with a HUGE partisan bias, then ask others to look up "both sides" information and sling insults at major media outlets while pretending to not be a troll? Fun fact, comrade, on this particular subject one side is right and your side is un-sourced nonsense coupled with discredited youtube videos. My freedom of speech is for telling folks not familiar with you that your content has gotten you tempbanned in the past, and we're all waiting for you to get that final trip to perm town at this rate. Please learn to play better or don't be surprised when nobody mourns your final absence.


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 21, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> https://www.bitchute.com/video/HO2cW6ueCjYF/
> For those who love abortions and vaccines, all in one! That's just a joke, the video explains it in much better detail and depth.
> 
> 
> ...




Did you just tell people to read the sources without actually reading the sources yourself? The paper cited for the first video says the findings are preliminary but reassuring. Many woman experience spontaneous abortions while being perfectly healthy and the rate cited in the study appears to be within error of that. The successful pregnancies also have a perfectly normal spread of other minor issues with the newborn babies just like they were prior to the vaccine.
In fact, current studies suggest that one in four know pregnancies ends prematurely in a natural abortion, completely unexpected and without warning signs. Meaning the study is even more positive by only having a reported one in eight chance.

As for the second video, other countries report it properly and have roughly the same incidence as the US for myocarditis, are those places also all lying to make the US look bad?


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 22, 2021)

"Oh look, this *completely unrelated* issue has *the exact same occurrence rate* within vaccinated and unvaccinated populations! Quick, make it a Flash News to warn people that the vaccine doesn't work and is dangerous because it happens in unvaccinated people as well!"
— Fake news spreading peeps, 2021


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> https://www.bitchute.com/video/HO2cW6ueCjYF/
> For those who love abortions and vaccines, all in one! That's just a joke, the video explains it in much better detail and depth.
> 
> 
> ...




Firstly, when you provide videos and whatnot stressing your stance, the burden of proof relies on you, the same way it is for everyone else when they also present their own personal views. Just because you imply tongue in cheek compliments does not mean you get a free pass on backing up your claims. 

Secondly, most people who argue for the vaccine have done their research from both sides. Pro vaccine data is more abundant and less subjective than anti vaccine data by a lot. Considering most anti vaccine data is based off a small number of unique, individual cases which exist to prove the rule or complete bullshit, anti vaxxers don't have much of leg to stand on. 

Finally, your video would be better if it didn't cut off interview responses and replay the same clip over and over again.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 22, 2021)

Jesus, why do I get the feeling if there was undeniable proof that if the vaccine had hydrochloride acid and rat poison mixed in people will still inject it into their bodies anyway because they've been told to?


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Jesus, why do I get the feeling if there was undeniable proof that if the vaccine had hydrochloride acid and rat poison mixed in people will still inject it into their bodies anyway because they've been told to?


I dunno, try finding some proof and then providing evidence and see what happens! It'll be a change of pace for everyone, if nothing else!


----------



## xIce101x (Sep 22, 2021)

Wow this thread is still going on


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 22, 2021)

https://www.bitchute.com/video/G4XAcCOrqAuD/
I suppose this answers my question from earlier.


More interesting coof news!


----------



## SonowRaevius (Sep 22, 2021)

You can't make this shit up XD


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 22, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> FFS, you post a video without source links from a youtuber with a HUGE partisan bias, then ask others to look up "both sides" information and sling insults at major media outlets while pretending to not be a troll? Fun fact, comrade, on this particular subject one side is right and your side is un-sourced nonsense coupled with discredited youtube videos. My freedom of speech is for telling folks not familiar with you that your content has gotten you tempbanned in the past, and we're all waiting for you to get that final trip to perm town at this rate. Please learn to play better or don't be surprised when nobody mourns your final absence.


I wasn't even gonna respond since all that comes out of your mouth is vitriol, bur you pissed me off. First off, what source doesn't have a little bias, even just a little, and what makes you think what you're been told isn't biased or lies? Did you do you damn research yourself or are you just another sheep as well. Secondly, I don't care if I get banned or not, I'm not the laughing joking numb nut who decided to put a politics section in a computer forum/modding site and then expect for people not to share different opinions and get pissy about it when some don't agree. If people like you are allowed to spew shit, then it should be the same for everyone. No one should be afraid to share their thoughts and or be threatened with bans.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Jesus, why do I get the feeling if there was undeniable proof that if the vaccine had hydrochloride acid and rat poison mixed in people will still inject it into their bodies anyway because they've been told to?


Except that's not the case. Can you provide proof that vaccines are harmful?


BitMasterPlus said:


> I wasn't even gonna respond since all that comes out of your mouth is vitriol, bur you pissed me off. First off, what source doesn't have a little bias, even just a little, and what makes you think what you're been told isn't biased or lies? Did you do you damn research yourself or are you just another sheep as well. Secondly, I don't care if I get banned or not, I'm not the laughing joking numb nut who decided to put a politics section in a computer forum/modding site and then expect for people not to share different opinions and get pissy about it when some don't agree. If people like you are allowed to spew shit, then it should be the same for everyone. No one should be afraid to share their thoughts and or be threatened with bans.


Maybe if you provided legit sources people would take you seriously.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> More fantastic vaccine news from actual doctors to boot!



Lol when are people going to learn that Project Veritas manipulate shit for $$$
For 150k I’ll say im a Dr or whatever you want 


  Grifters gonna grift, and suckers are going to repost it on GBAtemp

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Isn’t it funny that the last couple of Project Veritas “whistleblowers” (even the ones who are proven wrong) end up with Gofundme with at least 150k out of nowhere. maybe that has something to do with it


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 22, 2021)

djpannda said:


> Lol when are people going to learn that Project Veritas manipulate shit for $$$
> For 150k I’ll say im a Dr or whatever you want View attachment 276653  Grifters gonna grift, and suckers are going to repost it on GBAtemp
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> ...


So doctors openly admitting on video what's going behind the scenes of the pandemic is still lies? I guess don't believe your lying ears and eyes then.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lilith Valentine said:


> Except that's not the case. Can you provide proof that vaccines are harmful?
> 
> Maybe if you provided legit sources people would take you seriously.


Even if more people were to provide sources, you'd just discredit them since they wouldn't agree with your views, so my question is, why would anyone put in the work of showing you legit sources if you're still gonna just ignore and or claim falsehoods because they don't agree with your views? Seems like a waste of time and energy to me, since you won't change your stance either way, your mind's been made up long ago, but what do I know.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> So doctors openly admitting on video what's going behind the scenes of the pandemic is still lies? I guess don't believe your lying ears and eyes then.


Egging on by a registered grifter. I mean “nurse” that knew she would get 150k in donations … just that that definition of reliables…. And handful of dr against vaccine VS 99% of dr for the vaccine?


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I wasn't even gonna respond since all that comes out of your mouth is vitriol, bur you pissed me off. First off, what source doesn't have a little bias, even just a little, and what makes you think what you're been told isn't biased or lies? Did you do you damn research yourself or are you just another sheep as well. Secondly, I don't care if I get banned or not, I'm not the laughing joking numb nut who decided to put a politics section in a computer forum/modding site and then expect for people not to share different opinions and get pissy about it when some don't agree. If people like you are allowed to spew shit, then it should be the same for everyone. No one should be afraid to share their thoughts and or be threatened with bans.




https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...ate-after-husband-dies-from-covid-19/2709975/


https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/29/former-anti-vaxxer-now-nudge-people-to-get-covid-19-vaccine/


https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/anti-vax-influencer-covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy/

Here are three sources, provided free of charge and happen to be from the first page of a Google search, where three anti vaxxers are now advocating getting the vaccine. 

The problem with bias is that, yes, you're completely right in the fact that every source technically provides bias. I believe someone posted either in this thread or the conservative news corner thread a much more detailed explanation, but basically bias is linked with perspective, therefore it's difficult to find a source that's completely unbiased. 

However, there are different levels of bias, and most people don't take into consideration the amount of misinformation that comes with higher levels of bias. Most of what you've posted comes with a ton of misinformation, even if it's posting something vague and taunting people into believing misinformation through emotion. 

"Do your research" is getting exhausting to hear at this point. It's literally said in lieu of a valid argument. If all you can do is try to ridicule people and get butthurt over being called out, you can't expect anything else but vitriol.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 22, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...ate-after-husband-dies-from-covid-19/2709975/
> 
> 
> https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/29/former-anti-vaxxer-now-nudge-people-to-get-covid-19-vaccine/
> ...


Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites. So then when I post sources on my side then no one should complain either. If these people want to take the vaccine, fine. If they want to suggest to others to do the same, ok. It's still up to the individual to decide themselves if they want to or not.

I don't see the problem on doing one's research. I mean, it's searching and reading is not gonna kill you or anything. I don't see any excuse to not do research other than laziness and ignorance.

And if people want to respond with vitriol, fine. I'm not really butthurt or anything. I just said I got a little mad, but my ass is a-ok lol. For people who urge others to take the vaccine to save lives, I've seen the same people wanting those who are unvaccinated to drop dead. For such compassionate people, some like to see unborn babies and people who disagree with them die. My philosophy is "An eye for an eye." I claim to be no better than the man next to me, so if you say you want the unvaxxed to die, then I should have the right to say those who are vaxxed and who support it should also die a slow and painful death. Since you don't agree with me, I hope your insides liquefy after taking the shot. And if this is trolling or a problem, then those who wish death on those who oppose the vax or haven't taken it yet should also get in the same amount of trouble.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> I wasn't even gonna respond since all that comes out of your mouth is vitriol, bur you pissed me off. First off, what source doesn't have a little bias, even just a little, and what makes you think what you're been told isn't biased or lies? Did you do you damn research yourself or are you just another sheep as well. Secondly, I don't care if I get banned or not, I'm not the laughing joking numb nut who decided to put a politics section in a computer forum/modding site and then expect for people not to share different opinions and get pissy about it when some don't agree. If people like you are allowed to spew shit, then it should be the same for everyone. No one should be afraid to share their thoughts and or be threatened with bans.



The problem, comrade, isn't that nobody can be unbiased, but rather what motivations would somebody have to give into a bias. Take, for instance, the health care industry with the covid vaccine. The US has some fairly corrupt pharmaceutical companies, this is truth that few would debate. Listening purely to lobbyists within the country on the efficacy and side effects of things would probably be a bad idea. However, these groups do not control the interests of doctors across the globe, many of whom have no monetary gain by jumping on the pro-vaccine bandwagon, and they are among the many folks involved in the peer review process. I'm sure this is boring stuff for you to think about, but life exists outside of your bubble and there are a great many intelligent and experienced individuals who pool their talents and time with no promise of a giant payday. Could they politically lean to one side or the other of the political landscape? Probably, many doctors are very passionate about their positions. Does that mean anything to their findings and objectives? NO!

And here is why you have gotten into trouble. You seem to not like that view, so you find questionable talking heads that echo your viewpoints, without doing the research into what exactly they're saying. You've put your lack of critical thinking skills on full display, and even those who lean towards your ideology sometimes have had to give you distance because of your willingness to ignore facts inconvenient to your world view. The things you espouse are literally harmful on occasion, homophobic or racist or sexist on occasion, and promote discourse of the worst kind.

Responses to you haven't always been kind, and I confess that I've indulged in hitting the BitPinata of silliness, but that is because what you're sharing isn't opinions, it is lies. You may not understand the reasons they're lies, but that doesn't change the facts, and people have REPEATEDLY struggled to help you understand to no avail. Several right leaning individuals have managed to at the very least stay civil and show their ability to engage in intelligent conversation (even if I question their sincerity on occasion...), but your behavior doesn't tend to match their efforts.


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites. So then when I post sources on my side then no one should complain either. If these people want to take the vaccine, fine. If they want to suggest to others to do the same, ok. It's still up to the individual to decide themselves if they want to or not.
> 
> I don't see the problem on doing one's research. I mean, it's searching and reading is not gonna kill you or anything. I don't see any excuse to not do research other than laziness and ignorance.
> 
> And if people want to respond with vitriol, fine. I'm not really butthurt or anything. I just said I got a little mad, but my ass is a-ok lol. For people who urge others to take the vaccine to save lives, I've seen the same people wanting those who are unvaccinated to drop dead. For such compassionate people, some like to see unborn babies and people who disagree with them die. My philosophy is "An eye for an eye." I claim to be no better than the man next to me, so if you say you want the unvaxxed to die, then I should have the right to say those who are vaxxed and who support it should also die a slow and painful death. Since you don't agree with me, I hope your insides liquefy after taking the shot. And if this is trolling or a problem, then those who wish death on those who oppose the vax or haven't taken it yet should also get in the same amount of trouble.



People make fun of your stance because it's easily proven and fact checked that almost everything you post is blatantly incorrect. Take my last reply for example where the study your video cited outright says the incidence of abortions occuring after the vaccine is the same rate as they occur in healthy people that haven't gotten the shot. Many of your opinions are also just parroting the talking points of people with an actual political stake in it and are willing to manipulate their viewers into either getting donations from them or get donations from a higher up politically active group. Your "research" is listening to people that openly misrepresent actual facts from the studies they quote, that knowingly edit out or remove context from interviews to make them fit their videos, or peddle studies as gospel that don't survive peer review because the studies had multiple egregious issues. If you want to be taken seriously all you have to do is actually start doing your own "research" but read the studies yourself and then double check the facts given, or better yet listen to people when they dumb down the studies for the average Joe because otherwise you're going to need a dictionary for half the words some studies use. I know that because I've been there with about 15 tabs open on Wikipedia because I've no idea half those words mean.
Also the media you shun as left leaning is often times on the political spectrum closer to center than left leaning. The US does not have a left leaning political party, both Dems and Repub are on the right side of the spectrum, the republicans are just further right than the Democrats. I know this with confidence because I'm further left than Bernie Sanders in my political views and my local voting patterns reflect that. Neutral media shares a view leftist views because part of what the left does is (often begrudginly) embrace science, and science requires that people are able to change their views to new science even if it goes against previously taught knowledge or personal beliefs.

Also, people on the left don't "want" unvaccinated people to die, we're just no longer willing to support selfish people that have slapped away every single helping hand they've been offered and instead actively are trying to make everything worse by screaming and kicking about their freedom to be selfish. It's been almost 2 years we've all been negatively affected by the pandemic and most people on the left have followed the science advise as best as they could while the ultra-tough, gun slinging to stop mass shooters, right threw a 1 and a half year long tantrum against wearing a cloth mask and keeping a little more distance than usual. We're simply stating the facts that, if they don't want to get vaccinated that they should please take full responsibility for their personal decisions and not cry for help when they suddenly and inevitably contract the virus and require medical help. Hospitals are full from people that don't want to get vaccinated and are currently blocking ICU beds, people have died from totally preventable disease because the ICU was blocked statewide. Unvaccinated people getting sick literally kills other people at the moment. And for this simple reason, that the left saw coming over a year ago, we are now collectively telling people if they don't want to take responsibility for their actions to please lie down somewhere that isn't the ICU and just suffocate on their pneumonia without bothering the rest of us.

We will not be groveling to the selfish people to please accept help, there is a solution and if they don't want it we're under no obligation to feel anything when the bill comes in form of a casket.


----------



## smf (Sep 22, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Just to play Devil's advocate for a second here, are we culpable if someone dies as a direct result (medically proved of course) of taking the vaccine due to our advocacy?



If someone purposefully persuaded someone to take a vaccine knowing that the risk was greater than the benefit then sure.

People like Nicki Minaj know what they are doing.



sith said:


> smf, i named you earlier because you are the shining example of how not to think, fascist authoritarian, take some personal responsibility, if you listen to some chump on the internet and something bad happens YOU are the one at fault not the chump.



You appear to have a very poor grasp of human behavior and psychology.

Cambridge Analytica have proved that you can sway public opinion with lies. All you need is money and a lack of morals and you can win elections. It's about time you took responsibility for the lies you tell and don't just hand waive it away as "if people are dumb enough to believe my lies then it's on them not me".

If think that makes me fascist or authoritarian then you have a poor grasp of those concepts too.



BitMasterPlus said:


> So doctors openly admitting on video what's going behind the scenes of the pandemic is still lies? I guess don't believe your lying ears and eyes then.



Because all doctors always tell the truth?

https://www.history.com/news/cigarette-ads-doctors-smoking-endorsement

They are just people and can be crazy or bought.

I don't think anyone could afford to buy all the doctors who support vaccination, buying all the ones who are against it seems doable though.



SyphenFreht said:


> "Do your research" is getting exhausting to hear at this point. It's literally said in lieu of a valid argument.



It's worse, the people who use it are trying to justify their complete lack of research and logical thought processes.

It actually means "I read only the things I agreed with and now I'm convinced".



BitMasterPlus said:


> Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites.



Are you saying that the actual people who have been filmed saying that they regret not having the vaccine before they actually died are somehow influenced by the bias of the news site that reported it afterwards?

At this point you seem incapable of rational thought if all you can do is call anything you disagree with leftist bias.

At least there are some brave people who ignore their parents cowardice

https://slate.com/technology/2021/0...racy-theory-coronavirus-parents-children.html


----------



## notimp (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Three sources from what are most likely bias leftist news sites. So then when I post sources on my side then no one should complain either. If these people want to take the vaccine, fine. If they want to suggest to others to do the same, ok. It's still up to the individual to decide themselves if they want to or not.
> 
> I don't see the problem on doing one's research. I mean, it's searching and reading is not gonna kill you or anything. I don't see any excuse to not do research other than laziness and ignorance.
> 
> And if people want to respond with vitriol, fine. I'm not really butthurt or anything. I just said I got a little mad, but my ass is a-ok lol. For people who urge others to take the vaccine to save lives, I've seen the same people wanting those who are unvaccinated to drop dead. For such compassionate people, some like to see unborn babies and people who disagree with them die. My philosophy is "An eye for an eye." I claim to be no better than the man next to me, so if you say you want the unvaccinated to die, then I should have the right to say those who are vaxxed and who support it should also die a slow and painful death. Since you don't agree with me, I hope your insides liquefy after taking the shot. And if this is trolling or a problem, then those who wish death on those who oppose the vax or haven't taken it yet should also get in the same amount of trouble.


You arent bringing an argument - instead you are posting a shaky cam video of someone in a white coat, that is saying "they arent telling you, they arent telling you about the 30 year old with congestive heart decease", and then switching to "the problem is that they arent doing antibody tests" and then next sentence, "no they are doing tests, the problem is just, that the government has hidden them from you!", cut to two 80IQ people "telling you what this was all about". (Who were the people that were filmed, they dont care - they had a white coat!) Cut to a youtuber telling you he will tell you what they told you - and then show you even more!

If I'd ask you to make an actual argument out of this, you would get stuck at the "the government is trying to kill me!" stage, followed by "they arent telling us the truthTM, they are lying!".

Lets go through this and show you the issues with that:

1. White coat means nothing, what people are saying means nothing, what they are publishing, does. Next thing you'd probably do is tell me I should listen to the generals opinion on afghanistan, because he has such a nice uniform. Get over the "symbol" fetish, of white coat means authority, and shaky cam means hidden, and youtuber tells me conspiracy - and oh me gud, those are them facts, them facts I tells you.

2. Politics isnt hiding information from the public in that instance - politics can report case figures, but the reports are done by other agencies, and there are institution wide reports done as well on the hospital level. Lets say politics wants to hide something - like case infection rate under Trump, which magically split between democratic and repiblic states mid reporting, once he uttered somewhat publically - that it should.

Top down you could maybe influence the first government agency, thats reporting figures. Thats actually a thing some politicians around the world do. Then they'd have to argue for why they do it, and could respond with stuff like "we dont want to create panic" f.e.. The next agency down (say regional level) usually doesnt care at all and keeps reporting like they would, and at the hospital level, good luck getting the responsible people there convinced that they should forge figures. Thats usually not going to happen.

Why? Because the "we dont want create panic" argument doesnt fly there. Those people know, that their figures arent what gets reported at the official level, so why the frack should they start forging their own reports? What you are dealing with here is a "separation of power", politician can do nothing for the doctors, or the scientists career, so they could as well f*ck off, if they cant pull something like 'national interest'. Those numbers will get out. And if they dont - the next guy - doing statistics on 'excess mortality rate', will do f*ck all to forge their numbers, just because the last guy did, and then the guy before that, and then the guy before that, and then the guy before that, and then the "president" (or guy in politics who dreamt that thing up).
Which brings us to point two - are you insane? Do you know how many people you would have to threaten or bribe, across different institutions with different chains of command, in different states all around the country? To then have one person in white coat in a shaky cam video tell you the truthTM? You are talking tens of thousands going against their work ethic, professional oaths, ...

So how does this work in practice? Lets say politics can threaten the "official reporting agency" to downplay covid numbers for a while - because of lets say stated "national interest" (prevent mass panics), and then thats it. Internal reporting of the next agency down usually is still 'not fudged with' and the reporting at the hospital stage (those guys write scientific studies also, you know), also is not. And if there would be attempts, the professional outcry would be effing huge. And you see it in other countries, panning out like that. (Dictator reported lower numbers, journalists go down to the next lower reporting agency, add up numbers, publish that those dont add up and are higher. Or then look at excess mortality rates, and those turn out higher.) Because you cant "conspiracy theory" the whole medical system.

It would be easier to tell people, that the entities making the vaccine bribed the people doing the studies, than that this is a political conspiracy (where the youtuber you follows, btw - always gets you the right shaky cam videos of some guy or gals in a white coat, to then...). But for that purpose, you have separation of power. People doing the big studies pre greenlighting a vaccine have to be independent, and hospitals doing the runs are also independent (in terms of their financing). What politics did at that point was to fast track the "legislation process", but not the actual tests. Thats why vaccines had been finished in 3 weeks (in some cases), and rollout still took a year (ok, production also had to be turned up), but those tests were properly done in that year.


So what are those people in white coats in a shaky cam video talking about?

Degenerative heart disease in a 30 year old?


> In an article published Tuesday in JAMA Cardiology, U.S. Army, Navy and Air Force physicians described 23 cases of myocarditis in previously healthy males who developed the condition within four days of receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> Physicians would have expected to find eight or fewer cases of myocarditis among the 436,000 male military members who received two mRNA shots, according to the study. But 20 military members developed inflammation after their second dose, including 14 after the Moderna shot and six after the Pfizer shot. Three developed the condition after their first vaccine.


https://www.military.com/daily-news...lammation-cases-linked-covid-19-vaccines.html

Thats 4x the expected rate.

At a chance of 1:21800.

Issue is sample size. At 20 people reported, it still could be a statistical fluke. Or not. Why?


> The researchers noted that myocarditis was not reported as an adverse effect in the Phase 3 clinical trials for the mRNA vaccines, and that, other than in the case of the smallpox vaccine, "immunizations are rarely associated with hypersensitivity myocarditis."
> 
> In 2003, at least 10 military personnel and several civilians developed myocarditis after receiving the vaccine; two died of heart attacks. The CDC took steps to recommend that people diagnosed with heart disease avoid the smallpox vaccination.


If we propose the same mycarditis to death rate - it was 4 people that might have died from 436,000 getting a shot. Again, this is still 4 times higher than expected - but just to keep the proportions.

Whats more important though is, that -- that stuff gets reported. There are study results that get out there, and institutions that are picking them up. There is even journalistic reporting on it.

Are the army figures the "only correct ones"? No - but that report is signaling to other institutions to keep that number in mind, and check in their numbers.

Next we go to "why havent they found out earlier"? Stage 3 trials for any vaccine are usually done with close to 30.000 (willing) participants. Again - if something shows up at a rate of 1:109000 (person died because of heart inflamation), its impossible to catch it in stage 3 trials.

Next step is the interesting one. So if one person in 109000 died - why arent we reporting on it, and calling Fox news and the two 80IQ people to get everyone into praying cycles to topple the gouvernment? Because people (even in their 30s) die from Covid as well. So at the planning level of "pandemic management", you are literally doing statistics weighing one set of deaths and complications, against another set of deaths and complications, against the average death (and complications) rate, of "people just die" in the same general timeframe.

If you are a very lovely person, you also do calculations on "average healthy days left" meaning , you weigh those calculations towards the healthier younger people, because you try to optimize for "max healthy days in overall population".

So - lets say heart inflamation rate is not raised by 4x, but only by 2x - it might make sense to simply not tell that to people in the evening news, because it might scare them, less of them would take the vaccine, and thereby death rate would increase from Covid related deceases. Lets make this a little more realistic and say, you also factor in economic fallout, from - lets say another spike in infections, and what might happen if hospitals are over capacity.


What are the other two points the people in that "shocking shaky cam video" are talking about?

"They dont do antibody tests" and "Oh no - they are doing them, but they arent publishing results".

No, they are doing them, and they are publishing results.



> Administration of two doses of the vaccine generated a neutralizing response in 95% of individuals, with titres three- to fivefold lower against the Delta variant than against the Alpha variant.


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9

(titer is just a measure of antibodies, like lets say liter is for beer)

So Immunity - is largely out of the window at this point (because Delta came along, and the vaccines arent working as good agains it, as they did against the first strain (alpha)), but you still get low to no symptoms in 95% of people with two shots - _severely_ lowering the infection rate (they'd be infecting others by), because with no or low symptoms, they usually arent infectious, or far less infectious.

With that also correlates, that you get far less deadly outcomes from a covid infection. (You yourself, and in the general population.)
--

Now - lets create the main points of the argument, without someone in a white coat in a shakycam video telling you the truth, as two other people will tell you - in addition to your podcaster who will talk about them --

Risk chance of side effects lower than potential risk chances of severe or deadly side effects of Covid (even in that agegroup) = everything dandy, and please lets not tell people all those numbers they'd just get confused and or scared.

Enter stage left two people with an 80s IQ, who tell you the government is hiding the truth from you!

There is an inherent danger. Which is why people have to decide for themselves, if they are willing to take the vaccine or not. But the point is, that government has to keep tabs on if that risk is far lower, than the risk that comes from Covid or not - and they are doing that. No conspiracy - nothing "hidden by 20.000 people being forced to shut up, or being bribed..", thats just not probable.

And the risk is low. But tell that to people, who play the lottery every sunday (with the super number!), and get their news from their facebook feeds. Kind of hard to do.

Which is why "forcing" people to get the shot in general is 'out' but very strongly urging them to get it, is all the hot shizzles. (The individuals have to take the risk, the state has to make sure, its not worse, than the risks that would come along with covid (taking into account how fast it spreads).)

Oh and we depend on science not to be affected by politics to be able to make those hard weighing decisions (where statistically you take into account deaths on both sides, and then still have to make a pragmatic decision, in the interest of 'the people'.).

edit: Correction: Covid-19 also might be infectious if you arent showing symptoms. Have read too little about what that means on the societal level for vaccination campaigns. (Also might be different if you arent showing symptoms, because you've been vaccinated.). If someone knows more about that, please fill us in.

edit2: Yeah vaccinated people still potentially infecting others, if they've contracted Covid, is a thing with delta: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1


> “The bottom line is, this can happen — it can be true that vaccinated people can spread the virus. But we do not yet know what their relative role in overall community spread is,” says co-author Thomas Friedrich, a virologist at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.


Remember that the chance for severe outcomes still is lower once vaccinated.
And there should be an impact on community spread as well, otherwise the target of 80% (Ish) of vaccinated people to achieve herd immunity "equivalency", doesnt hold. I just dont know the mechanism. (Somone better at epidemic math explain this to me..  )


----------



## g00s3y (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Well, it was a shitty joke.



Maybe you're just a shitty person.

How much horse de-wormer have you taken so far?


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 22, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Even if more people were to provide sources, you'd just discredit them since they wouldn't agree with your views, so my question is, why would anyone put in the work of showing you legit sources if you're still gonna just ignore and or claim falsehoods because they don't agree with your views? Seems like a waste of time and energy to me, since you won't change your stance either way, your mind's been made up long ago, but what do I know.


That's a lot of projection, my only request has been for peer-reviewed sources, that's literally it. If someone can provide peer-reviewed research, then I am more than willing to read it and research it. That process is literally how science is supposed to work. Saying that I won't change my stance or that it would be a waste of time is projection because that's not the case. I am literally looking for people to actually provide information isn't just some conspiracy video from YouTube or some random "doctor" talking out of his ass. I am asking for the bare minimum requirement of a peer-reviewed paper, which is standard for scientific research and medical practices.


----------



## smf (Sep 22, 2021)

notimp said:


> edit: Correction: Covid-19 also might be infectious if you arent showing symptoms. Have read too little about what that means on the societal level for vaccination campaigns. (Also might be different if you arent showing symptoms, because you've been vaccinated.). If someone knows more about that, please fill us in.



Yes, you can spread covid with and without symptoms whether you've been vaccinated or not.

The vaccine gives you a head start on tackling the infection, if it recognizes the strain.

This kinda plays into the anti vaxxers hands a little as they say that the "vaccine doesn't work" except the vaccine does work, to an extent. It works better for example than not having the vaccine.

The quicker you kill the virus, the fewer people you will infect.

An old friend of mine tried the "it's no more dangerous than the common flu", but the flu tends to make you feel really ill and stay home while covid rarely does that. What makes covid really dangerous isn't that it has a high mortality rate, it's that it's easily transmissible and in most cases produces no symptoms.

Covid 19 is a far larger killer than something like ebola, where everyone gets really sick and most people die.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 22, 2021)

smf said:


> The vaccine gives you a head start on tackling the infection, if it recognizes the strain.


Trials have just begun here in Manchester for a new vaccine booster that isn't just limited to the viral spike protein, which will mean its effiicacy should be good even for unknown variants.


----------



## smf (Sep 22, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Trials have just begun here in Manchester for a new vaccine booster that isn't just limited to the viral spike protein, which will mean its effiicacy should be good even for unknown variants.



Hopefully.

_Ustianowski said that it was difficult to predict whether the new jab would remove the need for Covid vaccines to be tweaked to tackle variants. “This is one of the hopes for this vaccine, but we will have to wait for the immunology and effectiveness data to emerge,” he said. But, he added, “it has been designed with this factor in mind”._


----------



## Lacius (Sep 25, 2021)

I just scheduled my third dose for October 10, approximately six months after my second dose.


----------



## NoobletCheese (Sep 26, 2021)

I'll just leave this here
https://www.docdroid.net/kZZXcGS/covid-19-the-spartacus-letter-pdf


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 26, 2021)

NoobletCheese said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.docdroid.net/kZZXcGS/covid-19-the-spartacus-letter-pdf


Now that is some Grade-A bullshit. And that's about all the discussion that "paper" deserves.


----------



## subcon959 (Sep 26, 2021)

I stopped reading at "inject literal poison".


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 26, 2021)

NoobletCheese said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.docdroid.net/kZZXcGS/covid-19-the-spartacus-letter-pdf


That a credible peer-reviewed paper?


----------



## Lacius (Sep 26, 2021)

NoobletCheese said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.docdroid.net/kZZXcGS/covid-19-the-spartacus-letter-pdf


This is trash, so if you leave it here, you're littering.


----------



## Lacius (Sep 26, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I stopped reading at "inject literal poison".


That's exactly when I stopped.


----------



## SG854 (Sep 26, 2021)

NoobletCheese said:


> I'll just leave this here
> https://www.docdroid.net/kZZXcGS/covid-19-the-spartacus-letter-pdf






			
				Covid 19 - The Spartacus Letter said:
			
		

> Damn you to hell. You will not destroy America and the Free World, and you will not have your New World Order. We will make certain of that.


Nice


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 26, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I stopped reading at "inject literal poison".


I literally didn’t even read it when I saw it didn’t come from any reputable site


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 26, 2021)

Are they self aware, when they post this nonsense?


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 26, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Are they self aware, when they post this nonsense?


I think they really believed an angry ramble without any credentials would be convincing enough for us


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 26, 2021)

Isn't Spartacus typically typified as a hero amongst communist communities and such? Only in reference to the fact that most Covid deniers are typically Republican.

*sighs* I hate that I can't disagree with this entirely. I'm not 100% against the idea of governments using biological warfare, or even using its own citizens as experimentation. Not that I'm saying that's what covid is, but for me personally, the idea of such is not outside the realm of possibility. 

I do like how there's almost twice as many pages of pseudo irrelevant links. I might actually have to check some of them out when I'm undergoing my existential crisis later.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 28, 2021)

KingVamp said:


> Are they self aware, when they post this nonsense?


That basically goes for every anti-vaxxer out there. It boggles the mind, doesn't it?


----------



## AsPika2219 (Sep 28, 2021)

Countdown to 3rd dose vaccines!


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 28, 2021)

Man, it is looking like it will never get to 70%.


----------



## SAIYAN48 (Sep 28, 2021)

Got double Moderna. I don't think I need a 3rd dose. I don't go out much.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 28, 2021)

SyphenFreht said:


> Isn't Spartacus typically typified as a hero amongst communist communities and such? Only in reference to the fact that most Covid deniers are typically Republican.
> 
> *sighs* I hate that I can't disagree with this entirely. I'm not 100% against the idea of governments using biological warfare, or even using its own citizens as experimentation. Not that I'm saying that's what covid is, but for me personally, the idea of such is not outside the realm of possibility.
> 
> I do like how there's almost twice as many pages of pseudo irrelevant links. I might actually have to check some of them out when I'm undergoing my existential crisis later.


I have no idea who Spartacus is, outside of the historical figure. Even if I did, the paper posted still doesn’t fit the request for a peer-reviewed paper.
If this is what’s in the paper, then I am definitely glad I didn’t spend my time reading it.


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 28, 2021)

The Catboy said:


> I have no who Spartacus is, outside of the historical figure. Even if I did, the paper posted still doesn’t fit the request for a peer-reviewed paper.
> If this is what’s in the paper, then I am definitely glad I didn’t spend my time reading it.


I skimmed the paper to check it against my internal conspiracy bingo card and the only part they're missing is blatant anti-Semitism, the rest is just your standard run off the mill deepstate controlled by the elite poisoning everyone for population control because food production isn't rising as fast as the population. Hence why I said calling it bullshit is about the only discussion it deserves.


----------



## tpax (Sep 28, 2021)

Johnson & Johnson's Business Lead, Brandon Schadt, and Johnson & Johnson's scientist, Justin Durant, stated their thoughts on the vaccine and were filmed with a hidden cam:



What do you think about it?


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 28, 2021)

tpax said:


> Johnson & Johnson's Business Lead, Brandon Schadt, and Johnson & Johnson's scientist, Justin Durant, stated their thoughts on the vaccine and were filmed with a hidden cam:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about it?



It's project Veritas with the usual sensationalized fear mongering with jump cuts between questions, only showing bits and pieces from the answers instead of the full context, and outright cutting answers together.
Considering they have a rich and storied history of manipulating interviews like that nothing of what they present there should be taken at face value.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 28, 2021)

RAHelllord said:


> It's project Veritas with the usual sensationalized fear mongering with jump cuts between questions, only showing bits and pieces from the answers instead of the full context, and outright cutting answers together.
> Considering they have a rich and storied history of manipulating interviews like that nothing of what they present there should be taken at face value.


How much context is needed when a Johnson & Johnson employee says Kids shouldn't get a f*cking vaccine because there are unknown repercussions? Seems clear cut to me.


----------



## stanna (Sep 28, 2021)

Stockholm syndrome, if they were on their death bed they could never admit they've be had, feel sorry for them.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Sep 28, 2021)

tpax said:


> Johnson & Johnson's Business Lead, Brandon Schadt, and Johnson & Johnson's scientist, Justin Durant, stated their thoughts on the vaccine and were filmed with a hidden cam:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about it?




Project Veritas. LMFAO. You mean this Project Veritas, right? "Project Veritas is an American far-right activist group founded by James O'Keefe in 2010. The group produces deceptively edited videos of its undercover operations, which use secret recordings in an effort to discredit mainstream media organizations and progressive groups. Project Veritas also uses entrapment to generate bad publicity for its targets, and has propagated disinformation and conspiracy theories in its videos and operations."


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 28, 2021)

I thought a picture was worth 1000 words but I guess I have to ramble about something when I add a picture so ramble ramble.


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 28, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> How much context is needed when a Johnson & Johnson employee says Kids shouldn't get a f*cking vaccine because there are unknown repercussions? Seems clear cut to me.


You mean apart from multiple studies having been performed and found some of those vaccines to already be perfectly save for children, and that he was clearly not finished talking before they cut away? Or that we didn't hear the actual question he was asked which could heavily alter the context of the answer? Yes, there is critical context missing here.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Sep 28, 2021)

RAHelllord said:


> You mean apart from multiple studies having been performed and found some of those vaccines to already be perfectly save for children, and that he was clearly not finished talking before they cut away? Or that we didn't hear the actual question he was asked which could heavily alter the context of the answer? Yes, there is critical context missing here.


As per usual. Out of context quotes and answers just to fit their agenda. I've said it some pages back, but these sorts of folks love to blur out or ignore what doesn't suit them.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 28, 2021)

The grim truth about vaccine side effects:


----------



## djpannda (Sep 28, 2021)

tpax said:


> Johnson & Johnson's Business Lead, Brandon Schadt, and Johnson & Johnson's scientist, Justin Durant, stated their thoughts on the vaccine and were filmed with a hidden cam:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about it?





BitMasterPlus said:


> How much context is needed when a Johnson & Johnson employee says Kids shouldn't get a f*cking vaccine because there are unknown repercussions? Seems clear cut to me.


..you mean Brandon Schadt -  who's job is  logistics management ( think UPS delivery)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-schadt-48577053
and Justin Durant "scientist" lol the funny part is people are saying he's not a medical Scientist but Consumer dept (SHAMPOO) lolol
https://www.jnj.com/healthcare-products/consumer

* so you tell me a Delivery manager and Shampoo mixer is your Breaking news?'*


_Thats like interviewing a supermarket part time overnight stock boy to inquire on Claims of the __Company's CEO embezzling__ money ??_


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 28, 2021)

djpannda said:


> ..you mean Brandon Schadt -  who's job is  logistics management ( think UPS delivery)
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-schadt-48577053
> and Justin Durant "scientist" lol the funny part is people are saying he's not a medical Scientist but Consumer dept (SHAMPOO) lolol
> https://www.jnj.com/healthcare-products/consumer
> ...


Well it's either that or the mainstream media constantly telling the people flat out lies if that's your logic.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 28, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> Well it's either that or the mainstream media constantly telling the people flat out lies if that's your logic.


yes... its either 99%  of World Governments, all the (legit) Medical field.* all Those People * vs Project Veritas and a UPS manger...and a Nurse that had a questionible Work History and who also just happen to get 200k right after appearing on video (but ...TRUST ME its not a Bribe??)


----------



## RocaBOT (Sep 28, 2021)

I admit it, I'm only just lying to have you unbelievers killed and absorbed into our great hive mind. Speaking of, I should go get my £1,000,000 check tomorrow, it's time I got paid for that.
/s


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 28, 2021)

tpax said:


> Johnson & Johnson's Business Lead, Brandon Schadt, and Johnson & Johnson's scientist, Justin Durant, stated their thoughts on the vaccine and were filmed with a hidden cam:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about it?



I think this still doesn’t fit the request of a peer-reviewed paper and is just conspiracy garbage



BitMasterPlus said:


> Well it's either that or the mainstream media constantly telling the people flat out lies if that's your logic.


That’s fine, I don’t care about the mainstream media, I only care about peer-reviewed paper. It’s amazing how we still haven’t seen one backing up any of the anti-vac claims or fears.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 28, 2021)

RocaBOT said:


> I admit it, I'm only just lying to have you unbelievers killed and absorbed into our great hive mind. Speaking of, I should go get my £1,000,000 check tomorrow, it's time I got paid for that.
> /s


shh don't tell them the plan 
...the people at  Breitbart already found out .. 
 the only two choices Trump supporters have now is DIE or be CUCKS ... ...TRUE story


----------



## NoobletCheese (Sep 29, 2021)

The Catboy said:


> I think this still doesn’t fit the request of a *peer-reviewed* paper and is just conspiracy garbage
> That’s fine, I don’t care about the mainstream media, *I only care about peer-reviewed paper*. It’s amazing how we still haven’t seen one backing up any of the anti-vac claims or fears.



Not peer reviewed: Pfizer's 6-month follow up to their ongoing phase 3 clinical trial finds higher mortality in the vaccinated group (20 vs 14, page 6 paragraph 3).

Peer reviewed: meta-analysis of 45 peer reviewed IVM studies shows 70% efficacy.


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 29, 2021)

NoobletCheese said:


> Not peer reviewed: Pfizer's 6-month follow up to their ongoing phase 3 clinical trial finds higher mortality in the vaccinated group (20 vs 14, page 6 paragraph 3).
> 
> Peer reviewed: meta-analysis of 45 peer reviewed IVM studies shows 70% efficacy.


I appreciate this post but I am looking for peer-reviewed research that shows vaccines are harmful and or backing up the belief that they aren’t a necessity. The research shown here still shows that they are still more effective than not having been vaccinated and still haven’t shown any reason to be concerned about the possible side-effects. I am currently trying to get those against the vaccine to provide evidence against the reasons


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> yes... its either 99%  of World Governments, all the (legit) Medical field.* all Those People * vs Project Veritas and a UPS manger...and a Nurse that had a questionible Work History and who also just happen to get 200k right after appearing on video (but ...TRUST ME its not a Bribe??)


So I guess if someone with common sense told you putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger would kill you but if the media said putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger would grand you eternal life and riches, you'd still believe the media and do it?


----------



## NoobletCheese (Sep 29, 2021)

The Catboy said:


> I appreciate this post but I am looking for peer-reviewed research that shows vaccines are harmful and or backing up the belief that they aren’t a necessity. The research shown here still shows that they are still more effective than not having been vaccinated and still haven’t shown any reason to be concerned about the possible side-effects. I am currently trying to get those against the vaccine to provide evidence against the reasons



Supposedly this is peer reviewed for appearing in "Trends in Internal Medicine", which claims to be "an international, open-access peer-reviewed, journal".

Technically, Pfizer's phase 3 clinical trial hasn't been fully peer-reviewed yet as it's still ongoing -- completion date: May 2, 2023.

It seems Pfizer have completed the primary efficacy endpoint but not the safety endpoint:


			
				https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine said:
			
		

> Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE today announced that, after conducting the final *efficacy* analysis in their ongoing Phase 3 study, their mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine candidate, BNT162b2, met all of the study’s primary *efficacy* endpoints...The trial will continue to collect efficacy and *safety* data in participants for an additional two years.



I don't understand why FDA didn't leave it under EUA until phase 3 is complete. 

Pfizer has shown their product reduces Covid hospitalisations (but not necessarily all-cause hospitalisations).   This is counterintuitive because if it reduces hospitalisation, and hospitalisation correlates to mortality, then shouldn't it reduce mortality as well?

Apparently Pfizer are working on an antiviral drug which may use similar mechanism to IVM.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 29, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> So I guess if someone with common sense told you putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger would kill you but if the media said putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger would grand you eternal life and riches, you'd still believe the media and do it?


And I guess if the Dr and scientist tell you to take a life saving vaccine to save humanity.. you would point a gun to you head instead…  wait… it’s not a hypothetical it’s real life


----------



## The Catboy (Sep 29, 2021)

NoobletCheese said:


> Supposedly this is peer reviewed for appearing in "Trends in Internal Medicine", which claims to be "an international, open-access peer-reviewed, journal".
> 
> Technically, Pfizer's phase 3 clinical trial hasn't been fully peer-reviewed yet as it's still ongoing -- completion date: May 2, 2023.
> 
> ...


Considering the site it’s tethered to is literally a conspiracy site and J. Bart Classen is known for publishing easily debunked crap, I wouldn’t consider anything on that site be considered a resource. It’s worth noting that don’t think that paper was properly peer-reviewed. As for the rest, imma be honest and say I need to read more into that all at a later time cause I am bit busy. It looks interesting though and an interesting note, my wife is part of one of the research studies, so that’s really neat.


----------



## BitMasterPlus (Sep 29, 2021)

djpannda said:


> And I guess if the Dr and scientist tell you to take a life saving vaccine to save humanity.. you would point a gun to you head instead…  wait… it’s not a hypothetical it’s real life View attachment 277550


And you didn't answer my question.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 29, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> And you didn't answer my question.


You mean I didn’t answer your complete asinine hypothesis? Sorry I usually don’t play Paper fortune teller, or [email protected]$k marry kill, I’m not in middle school. Your demented paranoia of 99% of the medical field trying to kill you with a vaccine.. that 2billion have already taken.. is a testament to the grand delusion installed in the right  by the old world powers Desperately clinging onto power any way they can (fear) .. fear of Communism, the replacement theory and fear bedrocks of cultural beliefs would be dismantled… you sir don’t realize you’re the villain that tries to stop change and demand we keep the old ways… in the Cinema of life..


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 29, 2021)

BitMasterPlus said:


> So I guess if someone with common sense told you putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger would kill you but if the media said putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger would grand you eternal life and riches, you'd still believe the media and do it?


You're the only person who believes this to be a serious question. You're also the only person to believe any of those people you link either have common sense or qualifications to have a deeper understanding of the topic they're talking about. The problem is that it's easy to demonstrate their understanding of the topic is outright wrong.

The comparison is not with the media telling anyone to kill themselves and some random underdog messiah telling anyone to not kill themselves, the reality is the media is telling everyone to take a vaccine for protection that has massive amounts of evidence to be safe and a bunch of people screaming that the media is trying to kill them without a single shred of credible evidence between them. And you believe them. You eat that shit right up like it's a five course gourmet meal.

You believe random employees of a company that have nothing to do with the actual vaccine or science side over people like Fauci who have a 40y history of working intimately with health care issues and patients, particularly Fauci who was on the Frontline of the ebola outbreak and treated people himself instead of just sitting back and only letting his underlings handle it. Dude has gotten his hands dirty and put himself into harms way to help when he could have just not. But for some reason he has less credibility on matters of medicine in your eyes than a logistics manager for a company whose only involvement in healthcare was moving crates of medicine.

The media you consume is telling you that the other side is asking everyone else to put a gun to their heads, and only your media is telling you that you are smart enough to not listen to the other side.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 29, 2021)

NoobletCheese said:


> Not peer reviewed: Pfizer's 6-month follow up to their ongoing phase 3 clinical trial finds higher mortality in the vaccinated group (20 vs 14, page 6 paragraph 3).
> 
> Peer reviewed: meta-analysis of 45 peer reviewed IVM studies shows 70% efficacy.


ACTUALLY, while the meta analysis of your link is interesting, it also takes some questionable liberties with its selections of data and is NOT a reputable source, as it stems from the FLCCC (Front Line Covid Critical Care) Alliance. For those not in the know, the FLCCC Alliance is headed by two physicians who've been dunked on pretty hard in their careers, and have chased alternative remedies for the right. They're responsible for the "Wonder Drug" comment regarding Ivermectin, and despite being reprimanded for their behaviors even outside of the pandemic for things like peddling addictive drugs to non-patients for cash, they continue to seek prosperity via ignorance and desperation.


----------



## Deleted member 568587 (Sep 29, 2021)

According to a new Trafalgar Group poll, the vast, bipartisan majority of American voters oppose vaccine mandates for American workers.

The poll, conducted in partnership with the Convention of States Action from September 17 to 19, included responses from 1097 likely voters.

https://humanevents.com/2021/09/29/...e-their-jobs-if-they-object-to-covid-vaccine/






When I decide to stop being lazy I can find where Biden, Harris, Pelosi and Fauci all said the Government should not be mandating vaccines that it's not their role, yet here we are. Biden and Harris spoke against the vaccine in general when Trump was President.


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 29, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> According to a new Trafalgar Group poll, the vast, bipartisan majority of American voters oppose vaccine mandates for American workers.
> 
> The poll, conducted in partnership with the Convention of States Action from September 17 to 19, included responses from 1097 likely voters.
> 
> ...


Wouldn't put much stock into that poll due to the history of the group who made the poll, and the fact that most other polls are in favor of the vaccine mandate and the consequences of not getting vaccinated.

The group that made the poll: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafalgar_Group

Some other polls:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/354983/majority-supports-biden-covid-vaccine-mandates.aspx
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrew...-mandates-broadly-popular-despite-gop-outcry/


----------



## djpannda (Sep 29, 2021)

ConspiracyFactualist said:


> According to a new Trafalgar Group poll, the vast, bipartisan majority of American voters oppose vaccine mandates for American workers.
> 
> The poll, conducted in partnership with the Convention of States Action from September 17 to 19, included responses from 1097 likely voters.
> 
> ...


oh thats cute you find...***1*** ..
 heres a whole bunch













ConspiracyFactualist said:


> When I decide to stop being lazy I can find where Biden, Harris, Pelosi and Fauci all said the Government should not be mandating vaccines that it's not their role, yet here we are. Biden and Harris spoke against the vaccine in general when Trump was President.


.yes Vaccine mandates.. I hope you don't have any Vaccines shot in your life... because if you ever went to school in the US. You would need about 6-9 depending on the STATE to attend school.. and if you and your family did not object to THOSE Vaccines it might looks like your just political motivated to stir the pot. instead of actually worried bout the Vaccine it self.. and Heck some real AntiVaccine would call you a Hypocrite or already have tainted blood because your chicken pox, rubella or Hep c


----------



## WG481 (Sep 29, 2021)

*Alright, I come in here and do this once in a while, so I'll do it again.*

First, the fun fact: There is nothing in the constitution preventing the government from mass mandating vaccination and masks. Shut the heck up.

So to sum it all up:

Vaccine = Good
Mask = Good
Republicans = Stupid, and have this burning passion that Trump won the election. False data, stupid theories, and no brains.
Democrats = Stupid, and have a lot going on to where they've come full circle and become the thing they sought to destroy. Correct data, no theories, and potential brains.

Politics are 100% stupid. It's seriously two sides of people fighting over dumb stuff. Can we get some Australian election into the mix where there's a third candidate of like the Green Party? That way we could have a three way divide, where there's more to discuss than "one side hates this."

Pretty much @Lacius and @djpannda have been spreading the truth. Vaccines aren't harmful.

Look, I hate needles as much as the next guy, but can we all agree it's for a good cause? The vaccine may not be a cure, but it does a pretty darn good job of keeping people a little safer. *Like if you get a flu shot, you can get the flu, but it won't be as bad as an unvaccinated person.



Disproving conspiracy theories:*

Government tracking: You are reading this on something where you are being tracked. Seriously, a connection to the internet can and will be traced by the government, just to make sure you're safe. Microchips still aren't small enough to fit a tracker in with a network card and some sensors, and still fit in a tiny needle.\

Autism: How in the _shite_ can someone get a genetic disease from a vaccine. Like, it isn't even contagious. It can't cause a mutation, and *there are no factual articles proving it.*

Government mind control (American Exclusive): We aren't North Korea. There's a lot in America to be happy about. We have some freedoms that other countries do not, but it is overshadowed by all of the fighting between two dysfunctional sides.

Vaccines make you infertile: Fertility? That's what you're worried about? We are in a global pandemic where close contact spreads the disease, and you're worried about... fertility? The vaccine causing infertility has been disproven, as COVID doesn't affect the balls, and the vaccine help the immune system, not the reproductive system.


----------



## Dakitten (Sep 29, 2021)

WG481 said:


> *Alright, I come in here and do this once in a while, so I'll do it again.*
> 
> First, the fun fact: There is nothing in the constitution preventing the government from mass mandating vaccination and masks. Shut the heck up.
> 
> ...



Butbutbut... what about 5g? The headaches are just the beginning, once those towers turn on, it will actively implant commands from the government into our brains! Once they turn on... we'll all... love... Biden... and buy... every copy of... Michelle Obama's book ever...


----------



## WG481 (Sep 29, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Butbutbut... what about 5g? The headaches are just the beginning, once those towers turn on, it will actively implant commands from the government into our brains! Once they turn on... we'll all... love... Biden... and buy... every copy of... Michelle Obama's book ever...


AHHH, 5G just burned Michelle Obama's books into the very fiber of my brain!


----------



## Jogarr (Sep 29, 2021)

I got the Pfizer last month and my arm still gets sore sometimes especially when I use the muscle on the jabbed arm. I regret it.


----------



## WG481 (Sep 29, 2021)

Jogarr said:


> I got the Pfizer last month and my arm still gets sore sometimes especially when I use the muscle on the jabbed arm. I regret it.


Give it a bit. I got it 4 months ago and it didn’t clear up for a bit.


----------



## djpannda (Sep 29, 2021)

Jogarr said:


> I got the Pfizer last month and my arm still gets sore sometimes especially when I use the muscle on the jabbed arm. I regret it.


you also have to take in account the person who injected it.. I had a lot of Nurses injecting and taking blood when I was young... Some of them Are *horrible* and Bruise my arm for Days and other I don't feel anything.


----------



## KingVamp (Sep 30, 2021)

Weighting options.  Possibly getting covid without the vaccine or a sore arm. Hmm...


----------



## stanna (Sep 30, 2021)

https://banned.video/watch?id=615499332b9dc11cfaa7ac63


----------



## stanna (Sep 30, 2021)

Well worth 18 minutes of your life.


----------



## RAHelllord (Sep 30, 2021)

stanna said:


> Well worth 18 minutes of your life.


An infowars video isn't worth the time it takes me to write this sentence. Those snake oil salesman have no credibility whatsoever and just want to sell you their iodine solutions for profit.


----------



## stanna (Oct 1, 2021)

Hard evidence but  if I don't look it can't be true,


----------



## Dakitten (Oct 1, 2021)

stanna said:


> Hard evidence but  if I don't look it can't be true,


More like "why would I listen to a serial liar tell me another lie?"

But by all means, comrade, if you think you've got something to share that is of value, don't hide behind the chili man, bring information in your own words and wow the crowd~


----------



## RocaBOT (Oct 1, 2021)

Preferably with some *evidence-based, peer reviewed* article(s) to support your claims. Like what we ask from both sides since the beginning. A shady video is not, and has never been, an evidence-based, peer reviewed proof of anything but human stupidity.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 1, 2021)

stanna said:


> Hard evidence but  if I don't look it can't be true,


There is no evidence in that video, it's just a short and over-simplified explanation of the immune system.. followed by baseless speculation on the effects of the vaccine on blood vessels. None of the papers referenced are anywhere to be found.


----------



## Deleted member 568892 (Oct 2, 2021)

I got vaccinated because my parents bribed me with a handjob at a dodgy massage parlor.


----------



## scroeffie1984 (Oct 2, 2021)

and bill gates is not mass producing fake meat ! social credit system is also fake ,qr code ?!  3e dose 4e dose any one   booster shot here we go  its over 9000 !!


----------



## RandomUser (Oct 3, 2021)

Jogarr said:


> I got the Pfizer last month and my arm still gets sore sometimes especially when I use the muscle on the jabbed arm. I regret it.


Your arm may have already fill better by now, so on your second dose, you may want to take a couple tylenol (acetaminophen) for sore arm if you want to. Worked well for the side effect I had from the vaccine.



linuxares said:


> I wooshed you hard my dude x3


Aang, is that you?


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 3, 2021)

I'm posting this here for any parents of 12-15 year olds. It's a statement from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) on the UK Government website.

On 26 August, 1 September and 2 September 2021, JCVI met, in collaboration with experts from overseas, to review updated evidence relating to the epidemiology of COVID-19 in the UK and safety data related to myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination in the UK, US and Canada. There is increasingly robust evidence of an association between vaccination with mRNA COVID-19 vaccines and myocarditis. This is a very rare adverse event. Available data from the US and Canada indicate the reporting rate of myocarditis is higher following a second dose of mRNA vaccine, compared with the first dose. No association with prior SARS-CoV2 infection and myocarditis following vaccination has been identified.

The available data indicate that the clinical manifestations of myocarditis following vaccination are typically self-limiting and resolves within a short time. However, the clinical picture is atypical and the medium to long-term (months to years) prognosis, including the possibility of persistence of tissue damage resulting from inflammation, is currently uncertain as sufficient follow-up time has not yet occurred.

*Advice*
This advice is not based on assessments of vaccine availability, future supply or costs associated with delivery of a programme. When formulating advice in relation to childhood immunisations, JCVI has consistently held that the main focus of its decision should be the benefit to children and young people themselves, weighed against any potential harms from vaccination to children and young people. In providing its advice, JCVI also recognises that in relation to childhood immunisation programmes, the UK public places a higher relative value on safety compared to benefits.

The available evidence indicates that the individual health benefits from COVID-19 vaccination are small in those aged 12 to 15 years who do not have underlying health conditions which put them at risk of severe COVID-19. The potential risks from vaccination are also small, with reports of post-vaccination myocarditis being very rare, but potentially serious and still in the process of being described. Given the rarity of these events and the limited follow-up time of children and young people with post-vaccination myocarditis, substantial uncertainty remains regarding the health risks associated with these adverse events.

Overall, the committee is of the opinion that the benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms (tables 1 to 4) but acknowledges that there is considerable uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the potential harms. The margin of benefit, based primarily on a health perspective, is considered too small to support advice on a universal programme of vaccination of otherwise healthy 12 to 15-year-old children at this time. As longer-term data on potential adverse reactions accrue, greater certainty may allow for a reconsideration of the benefits and harms. Such data may not be available for several months.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...children-aged-12-to-15-years-3-september-2021


----------



## Dakitten (Oct 4, 2021)

Something my spouse made recently after viewing some of this thread with me~ Thanks for the inspiration, folks!


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Oct 4, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Something my spouse made recently after viewing some of this thread with me~ Thanks for the inspiration, folks!


I see someone's a fan of FGO.


----------



## appleburger (Oct 4, 2021)

Pretty easy risk assessment, imo

Seems very clear to me that the risks COVID imposes are much more likely to affect the vast majority of us, meanwhile vaccine complications aren't _nearly _as likely.  I also see a lot of posts referring to sudo-science that could easily be debunked by reading up on some high-level, easy to read explanations as to how vaccines work in the first place from multiple reputable sources.  We've studied and used vaccines for much longer than we've studied COVID, and I'm personally going the route of science on this one, versus speculation from folks who haven't bothered to do any real homework.

I really wish we all valued where we source our information from more.  The biggest issue with COVID, in my opinion, has been education.  If we all put in the effort to hold our sources up to a golden standard, I think this "debate" would be up there with Flat Earth and Lizard People.


----------



## Immortallix (Oct 5, 2021)




----------



## Dakitten (Oct 5, 2021)

Immortallix said:


>



As is the stupidity that perpetuates the problem...


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Oct 5, 2021)

Had it since March, the vaccine that is. I'm fine, nothing wrong with me health wise aside from the stuff I had prior from the shot, and that's just poor eating habits. 

Also had covid back in December too, (got it on Christmas day as a matter of fact!) And I had a fever that lasted 7+ days with temps high enough that I had to self cool down in my bathtub with cold water to help lower my temp and keep myself stable. Because like hell the ER was going to take my young arse in over the others who probably could have died from it if they were older. 

After having to deal with that I'm glad to have the vaccine. I don't want to deal with that shit again. Anyone who refuses to get it must be lucky and haven't gotten covid bad yet, because if you had it and lived past the torture the virus can cause on you, you too wouldn't want to have it again. Don't be foolish and play russian roulette with your immune system and those around you. Be smart and just get the vaccine, so we can get on with our collective lives and move past this stop gap shit pile of a time we live in.


----------



## appleburger (Oct 5, 2021)

Immortallix said:


>



This is just social commentary, using the "left" and "right" archetype to talk about the attitude this dude is seeing through the lens of social media.  Not very useful for this discussion.  I already take issue with boxing millions of people into simple "right" "left" politics as it is, so I don't see any value in this video.  

Discussing these social issues with such a broad brush is inherently flawed, in my opinion.  I mean, how many people do you know that don't fully identify with the _two _political parties we have in the US?  Many, many of us fall somewhere on the spectrum depending on the issue at hand.  

So, bucketing a population of millions into two "characters" based on "left/right" leaning tweets is just a weak point of observation.  I think focusing on the science is the far more productive angle to talk about this issue, because you can actually scrutinize what's happening objectively, if you're willing to go down the rabbit hole and see what's actually likely to work or not.


----------



## Immortallix (Oct 7, 2021)

appleburger said:


> This is just social commentary, using the "left" and "right" archetype to talk about the attitude this dude is seeing through the lens of social media.  Not very useful for this discussion.  I already take issue with boxing millions of people into simple "right" "left" politics as it is, so I don't see any value in this video.
> 
> Discussing these social issues with such a broad brush is inherently flawed, in my opinion.  I mean, how many people do you know that don't fully identify with the _two _political parties we have in the US?  Many, many of us fall somewhere on the spectrum depending on the issue at hand.
> 
> So, bucketing a population of millions into two "characters" based on "left/right" leaning tweets is just a weak point of observation.  I think focusing on the science is the far more productive angle to talk about this issue, because you can actually scrutinize what's happening objectively, if you're willing to go down the rabbit hole and see what's actually likely to work or not.


Funny you say that since most of the pro covax people in this thread have been doing just that, lumping everyone who disagrees into the same general anti-vax, anti-science group. All while defending everything leftist politicians, corps/orgs, & media does.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 7, 2021)

Immortallix said:


> Funny you say that since most of the pro covax people in this thread have been doing just that, lumping everyone who disagrees into the same general anti-vax, anti-science group. All while defending everything leftist politicians, corps/orgs, & media does.


To be against the COVID-19 vaccine is to be anti-vax and anti-science.


----------



## tabzer (Oct 7, 2021)

Lacius said:


> To be against the COVID-19 vaccine is to be anti-vax and anti-science.


No it's not.  You can be against the "COVID-19 vaccine" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.


----------



## impeeza (Oct 7, 2021)

Exacly. Remember the so called covid-19  "vaccine" is NOT A Vaccine. Is a genetic treatment. The problem with SARS-Cov2 is the human body can not generates natural antibodies for it.


----------



## appleburger (Oct 7, 2021)

Immortallix said:


> Funny you say that since most of the pro covax people in this thread have been doing just that, lumping everyone who disagrees into the same general anti-vax, anti-science group. All while defending everything leftist politicians, corps/orgs, & media does.


Sure, lumping people into groups on either side of any argument is weak, I agree. That’s why I said that. 

Not once in this thread have I done that - just dropping the facts and asking leading questions to better understand where the rest of you are coming from.


----------



## Psionic Roshambo (Oct 7, 2021)

I got mine, although I did wait quite a few months.... messing with RNA and all that I wanted to see how things played out. Mostly everyone seemed fine so I got my second shot a few weeks back. Still no mutations although I will say this lizard skin is really itchy.... lol (I kid I kid)


----------



## Dakitten (Oct 7, 2021)

tabzer said:


> No it's not.  You can be against the "COVID-19 vaccine" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.


Well, no, actually. The science shows covid vaccinations are useful and extremely limited in their occurrence of noteworthy reactions, and it... is a vaccine, for something actively killing millions. If you're against the use and advocacy of the vaccine, and don't have any sources to show how the above statements are incorrect, you ARE anti-vax and anti-science. Simple, eh?


----------



## KingVamp (Oct 8, 2021)

Either through mRNA or a weaken version of the virus, they are both helping you prepare for the real thing.


----------



## Xzi (Oct 8, 2021)

impeeza said:


> Exacly. Remember the so called covid-19  "vaccine" is NOT A Vaccine. Is a genetic treatment. The problem with SARS-Cov2 is the human body can not generates natural antibodies for it.


I'm sure this has been covered a thousand times in this thread already, but that's misinformation.  The mRNA vaccines do not alter or even reach the human genome, they simply signal your cells to build their own spike protein.  And the J&J vaccine is solely of the "traditional" variety, it uses dead/dying cold cells to deliver a C19 spike protein for your immune system to fight off.  So even those who are skeptical of the mRNA vaccines, for whatever silly reason, have no excuse for not getting the J&J vaccine instead.


----------



## Chary (Oct 8, 2021)

Has anyone discussed how the vaccine possibly affects women's periods? 

Women said the COVID vaccine affected their periods. Now more than $1.6 million will go into researching it (Seattle Times)

I was concerned about this but a little dubious, when it came to getting my first shot. Side effects overall to the vaccine were kind of meh, except for that factor. Legitimately was in some of the worst pain of my life. After how bad the first shot was, I'm hesitant to get my second next week (though it won't be stopping me entirely...I'm just a bit worried)

I'm sure there's nothing bad long term--everything reported only seems to last a few months, but it's cropped up enough to warrant research into it. I just wish there was more information regarding it so I could be more certain.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 8, 2021)

Chary said:


> Has anyone discussed how the vaccine possibly affects women's periods?
> 
> Women said the COVID vaccine affected their periods. Now more than $1.6 million will go into researching it (Seattle Times)
> 
> ...


Site can't be reached


----------



## Chary (Oct 8, 2021)

SG854 said:


> Site can't be reached


Not sure why the link didn't work:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...than-1-6-million-will-go-into-researching-it/

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56901353


----------



## Xzi (Oct 8, 2021)

Chary said:


> Has anyone discussed how the vaccine possibly affects women's periods?
> 
> Women said the COVID vaccine affected their periods. Now more than $1.6 million will go into researching it (Seattle Times)
> 
> ...


Finally a legitimate concern.  I wonder why this wasn't reported during clinical trials, or if it was, why it was ignored.  Also curious to find out whether it's exclusive to one type of vaccine or the other.  Guess we'll find out soon enough.


----------



## tabzer (Oct 8, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Well, no, actually. The science shows covid vaccinations are useful and extremely limited in their occurrence of noteworthy reactions, and it... is a vaccine, for something actively killing millions. If you're against the use and advocacy of the vaccine, and don't have any sources to show how the above statements are incorrect, you ARE anti-vax and anti-science. Simple, eh?


It's simple.  You can be "against the 'COVID-19 vaccine'" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.  

For example, I can dislike broccoli but like food.  

Labelling people as anti-vax or anti-science is dehumanizing and grotesque.


----------



## djpannda (Oct 8, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's simple.  You can be "against the 'COVID-19 vaccine'" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.
> 
> For example, I can dislike broccoli but like food.
> 
> Labelling people as anti-vax or anti-science is dehumanizing and grotesque.


I guess … like when people say their PRO-life but want the death penalty… or when they say they are not racist, but don’t trust minorities.. or when people say they are Christian but call sharing communism . Or don’t  want Shia law but want prayer in school… or don’t trust the medical field but clog up the ER hospitals…or claim to their “own research “ but only check youtube…so I guess their are people that  don’t trust the biggest field test vaccine (2billion) because it’s not “properly test” but swear by a parasite medication that has not been properly tested  .I guess Oxymorons exists


----------



## tabzer (Oct 8, 2021)

djpannda said:


> I guess … like when people say their PRO-life but want the death penalty… or when they say they are not racist, but don’t trust minorities.. or when people say they are Christian but call sharing communism . Or don’t  want Shia law but want prayer in school… or don’t trust the medical field but clog up the ER hospitals…or claim to their “own research “ but only check youtube…so I guess their are people that  don’t trust the biggest field test vaccine (2billion) because it’s not “properly test” but swear by a parasite medication that has not been properly tested  .I guess Oxymorons exists


Yeah, strange for there to be a word for something that exists.  Maybe you should try going to school to learn a language.

People appear hypocritical and contradictory.  I didn't think stating that would be so mind-blowing.

Maybe I just don't like pharmaceutical companies and their influence in politics.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 8, 2021)

tabzer said:


> No it's not.  You can be against the "COVID-19 vaccine" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.


No, you cannot.


----------



## linuxares (Oct 8, 2021)

impeeza said:


> Exacly. Remember the so called covid-19  "vaccine" is NOT A Vaccine. Is a genetic treatment. The problem with SARS-Cov2 is the human body can not generates natural antibodies for it.


Thats what the vaccine is for. And the body creates antibodies when it's infected... (either from the virus or the vaccine)


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> No, you cannot.


Of course you can. Its called cognitive dissonance. Why are you ignoring nuance and treating people like this is black or white? (no racial pun intended)


----------



## Dakitten (Oct 8, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's simple.  You can be "against the 'COVID-19 vaccine'" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.
> 
> For example, I can dislike broccoli but like food.
> 
> Labelling people as anti-vax or anti-science is dehumanizing and grotesque.


I dunno about dehumanizing, since being wrong is a pretty common human thing to do, but it doesn't change that it is an anti-vax and anti-science position. If you think wearing that label might be offensive... well, yeah, people who don't believe in science should probably swallow a little scrutiny. 

Also, you can dislike broccoli because of the taste and still like food, but if you dislike broccoli because it contains calories and nourishment like everything else you refuse to ingest, you might be anti-food. If you proclaim that calories and nourishment don't actually mean anything to your body and you can live without it, then you would be anti-food and science... and likely dead before the end of the week, but that's neither here nor there. If somebody said they didn't want to get the vaccine because needles cause them to throw up at the mere sight or even mention of them, and they agreed to stay indoors and take precautionary measures with the safety of others in mind until alternative options or eradication of the virus was achieved, I don't think anyone here would be particularly fussy about it.


Chary said:


> Has anyone discussed how the vaccine possibly affects women's periods?
> 
> Women said the COVID vaccine affected their periods. Now more than $1.6 million will go into researching it (Seattle Times)
> 
> ...


That is interesting, although thankfully it seems to go along a trend of vaccinations in general causing short-term abnormalities in menstruation. It is a valid concern and worth mentioning to your doctor if you're feeling particularly skittish, but personally I'd still say it is worth the risk. It doesn't seem to be a particularly widely shared experience so far, and I'm certainly sorry to hear about your discomfort, but reasoning like that is exactly why it is a crying shame the incentives to stay at home ended prematurely... well, that and resurgences.  

May your second jab be more benign and may answers emerge soon!


----------



## pwjpssdfvqyuhweuxx (Oct 8, 2021)

how does this thread have 152 pages


----------



## Dakitten (Oct 8, 2021)

pwjpssdfvqyuhweuxx said:


> how does this thread have 152 pages


I would refer you to the vote tally, sadly.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Oct 8, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> I would refer you to the vote tally, sadly.


And the usual regulars of anti-vax that keep commenting and posting conspiracy theories and videos with no proven track record or data to back up their claims. And instead more folks have proven against them so easily with readily available data from practically many major scientific and medical sources.

It's a sad world to be in when we're trying to help others, but they refuse it all because of "politics", "freedumb", and "too early/experimental" excuses.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 8, 2021)

pwjpssdfvqyuhweuxx said:


> how does this thread have 152 pages


Because it's literally one of the most important topics in the world right now. It's crucial to get as much sincere discussion as possible.


----------



## emigre (Oct 8, 2021)

My dad's got his booster VAX today. I'll let everyone know if he becomes a 5G tower.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 8, 2021)

emigre said:


> My dad's got his booster VAX today. I'll let everyone know if he becomes a 5G tower.


I'm due mine soon but I'm a bit meh. I'll still get it but I'm not as confident about the efficacy as I was the first time around. I'm interested in the new booster being developed that doesn't just target the spike protein, it would be nice if that was available soon.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 8, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Of course you can. Its called cognitive dissonance. Why are you ignoring nuance and treating people like this is black or white? (no racial pun intended)


I am not ignoring nuance. This is a black/white issue. If you irrationally ignore the science about a vaccine, you're being anti-science. If you are irrationally against a vaccine, you are anti-vax. This isn't complicated, and whether or not a person simultaneously claims to be pro-science or pro-vaccine is irrelevant.

Forgive me for not coddling stupidity.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I am not ignoring nuance. This is a black/white issue. If you irrationally ignore the science about a vaccine, you're being anti-science. If you are irrationally against a vaccine, you are anti-vax. This isn't complicated, and whether or not a person simultaneously claims to be pro-science or pro-vaccine is irrelevant.
> 
> Forgive me for not coddling stupidity.



Forgiveness denied. Be a better person. If you actually do care about the overall outcome of this pandemic then you should be adjusting your approach to achieve the best possible result insult of stubbornly sticking to your black and white views that are clearly going to alienate those on the fence.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 8, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Forgiveness denied. Be a better person. If you actually do care about the overall outcome of this pandemic then you should be adjusting your approach to achieve the best possible result insult of stubbornly sticking to your black and white views that are clearly going to alienate those on the fence.


It is not my view that it's black and white. It is objectively black and white. If someone refuses to listen to science and is irrationally against a vaccine, it's anti-science and anti-vax by definition. I'm not going to lie and pretend that everything is okay and that they're not behaving irrationally. That would do everybody a disservice. The time for patience with the anti-vax and anti-science crowd ended a long time ago.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 8, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It is not my view that it's black and white. It is objectively black and white. If someone refuses to listen to science and is irrationally against a vaccine, it's anti-science and anti-vax by definition. I'm not going to lie and pretend that everything is okay and that they're not behaving irrationally. That would do everybody a disservice. The time for patience with the anti-vax and anti-science crowd ended a long time ago.



Alright, I can't say I agree but we can leave it at that.


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 8, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's simple.  You can be "against the 'COVID-19 vaccine'" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.
> 
> For example, I can dislike broccoli but like food.
> 
> Labelling people as anti-vax or anti-science is dehumanizing and grotesque.


Singing a different tone because you’ve been proven wrong countless times and won’t admit it?


----------



## xIce101x (Oct 8, 2021)

pwjpssdfvqyuhweuxx said:


> how does this thread have 152 pages


I asked myself the same question like 30 pages back lol


----------



## WG481 (Oct 9, 2021)

tabzer said:


> It's simple.  You can be "against the 'COVID-19 vaccine'" and still be pro-vax and pro-science.
> 
> For example, I can dislike broccoli but like food.
> 
> Labelling people as anti-vax or anti-science is dehumanizing and grotesque.


...No, no it really isn't. You already used labels like pro-science, idiot, etc. so frankly, how is it any different?


Lacius said:


> No, you cannot.


Correct.


linuxares said:


> Thats what the vaccine is for. And the body creates antibodies when it's infected... (either from the virus or the vaccine)


Well, if you get COVID you generate antibodies. But you're not incorrect linuxares. The easier, less painful way to generate antibodies is vaccination. Technically, that's how vaccines have been for forever, whether or not they are mRNA, since this "genetic treatment" is just your genetics *doing what they are supposed to do, with a little motivation.*


tabzer said:


> Yeah, strange for there to be a word for something that exists.  Maybe you should try going to school to learn a language.
> 
> People appear hypocritical and contradictory.  I didn't think stating that would be so mind-blowing.
> 
> Maybe I just don't like pharmaceutical companies and their influence in politics.


They have less of an influence than Exxon Mobil, Chevron, Big Oil Companies, etc.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 9, 2021)

WG481 said:


> They have less of an influence than Exxon Mobil, Chevron, Big Oil Companies, etc.



Source? Regardless, I think the influence of Pharm companies is more impactful on the average person. Unless of course you are one of the lucky ones that have never been infirmed, in which case I get the viewpoint (and am also envious).


----------



## WG481 (Oct 10, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Source? Regardless, I think the influence of Pharm companies is more impactful on the average person. Unless of course you are one of the lucky ones that have never been infirmed, in which case I get the viewpoint (and am also envious).


Oil companies put significant amounts of money into people running for major legislation which pretty much keeps their filthy business model alive. I don't remember Rite-Aid paying off a congressman.


----------



## fischermasamune (Oct 10, 2021)

Not wanting to derail the topic, but according to the website

https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/

to the 2020 election cycle, Health (which includes pharma, hospitals, associations, independent health professionals, but does not include health insurance which is grouped with Finance/Insurance/Real State) invested about 638,000,000, while Energy/Natural Resources (which includes mining, oil, gas, electric utilities) invested about 222,000,000.


----------



## tabzer (Oct 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> If you irrationally ignore the science about a vaccine, you're being anti-science


Well, that's a lot more loaded than the original statement.

I'm sure many people are paying attention to the science and are rightfully skeptical of it, considering Pfizer's own criminal track-record of manipulating "the science" and the US Government's habit of embellishing and fortifying criminal institutions with "fines".

I can be against Pfizer, mainly because they have too much power.  You can work on your own science experiments and I'll work on mine.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Well, that's a lot more loaded than the original statement.
> 
> I'm sure many people are paying attention to the science and are rightfully skeptical of it, considering Pfizer's own criminal track-record of manipulating "the science" and the US Government's habit of embellishing and fortifying criminal institutions with "fines".
> 
> I can be against Pfizer, mainly because they have too much power.  You can work on your own science experiments and I'll work on mine.


The independent science is overwhelmingly clear that the vaccines are safe and effective. To believe anything else is to go against the science, which is by definition an anti-science position. It's that simple.

In related news, I'm getting my third dose in about an hour. Hopefully my 5G signal gets a boost. If you don't hear from me, it means I didn't make it.


----------



## tabzer (Oct 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> The independent science is overwhelmingly clear that the vaccines are safe and effective.


So does this "independent science" talk to you directly?

I mean, you are living your dream.  I'm not going to put you down for that.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> So does this "independent science" talk to you directly?


It's freely available for anyone to find and read. You seem to be missing the point that you are, at present, arguing against science, which is anti-science.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> In related news, I'm getting my third dose in about an hour. Hopefully my 5G signal gets a boost. If you don't hear from me, it means I didn't make it.


If it's Pfizer I'll be interested in hearing about any after effects as I'm due my booster in a week or two.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 10, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> If it's Pfizer I'll be interested in hearing about any after effects as I'm due my booster in a week or two.


Like all the other cool kids, I'm getting Pfizer. 

With my first dose in March 2021, I didn't have any side-effects. With my second dose in April 2021, I had a mildly sore arm but no other side-effects.

For context, I contracted COVID-19 in January 2021 (flu-like symptoms, loss of taste/smell, positive test), and I probably contracted COVID-19 before that in February 2020 (flu-like symptoms and loss of taste/smell, but no tests were available).


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Like all the other cool kids, I'm getting Pfizer.
> 
> With my first dose in March 2021, I didn't have any side-effects. With my second dose in April 2021, I had a mildly sore arm but no other side-effects.
> 
> For context, I contracted COVID-19 in January 2021 (flu-like symptoms, loss of taste/smell, positive test), and I probably contracted COVID-19 before that in February 2020 (flu-like symptoms and loss of taste/smell, but no tests were available).


Did they offer you an antibody test before booking the booster? I'm surprised I haven't heard anything about them checking antibody levels to see if people even need boosters.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 10, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Did they offer you an antibody test before booking the booster? I'm surprised I haven't heard anything about them checking antibody levels to see if people even need boosters.


Nope, but I'm getting it through a pharmacy, not my doctor. I think if you can get it per the CDC guidance, they aren't doing antibody tests.

To be clear, I'm getting the booster because of my profession, not because of my age or health (young and healthy). In other words, the CDC says I "may" get the booster, but they aren't explicitly saying I "should" get it. I chose to get it.

Edit (link): https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/booster-shot.html


----------



## tabzer (Oct 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> It's freely available for anyone to find and read. You seem to be missing the point that you are, at present, arguing against science, which is anti-science.



I'm not arguing against science by questioning the nature of your source.  Is it hearsay?  Is it "sponsored"?  How would you begin to prove that a source was "independent" unless it was by yourself, for yourself?



Lacius said:


> young and healthy


Got covid 2x.  Weak and frail?


----------



## Lacius (Oct 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'm not arguing against science by questioning the nature of your source.  Is it hearsay?  Is it "sponsored"?  How would you begin to prove that a source was "independent" unless it was by yourself, for yourself?


You are arguing against independent and peer-reviewed science. Let us not pretend you're doing anything other than that. To say the science was somehow corrupt requires evidence.



tabzer said:


> Got covid 2x.  Weak and frail?


I suggest you learn how infectious diseases work, particularly in high risk environments like public schools. The virus doesn't care how young and healthy you are with regard to infection. I had mild symptoms, and because of my age and health, I wasn't at high risk for serious symptoms or hospitalization. However, the odds weren't 0%.

Edit: My odds are now even better against severe illness and hospitalization because I'm double vaccinated (soon to be triple vaccinated). My odds of initially contracting the disease are also low because of the aforementioned vaccinations.


----------



## osaka35 (Oct 10, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'm not arguing against science by questioning the nature of your source.  Is it hearsay?  Is it "sponsored"?  How would you begin to prove that a source was "independent" unless it was by yourself, for yourself?
> 
> 
> Got covid 2x.  Weak and frail?


that's not how any of this works. if you're curious how science gets published, what makes for a reputable journal, and what the peer-review process is, that's a fine topic to ask about. but stop flame-baiting and trolling if you're genuinely curious.


----------



## Lacius (Oct 10, 2021)

I got my third dose earlier this morning. The wait was kind of long (~40 minutes) since there were a lot of people, but all went well. I also got my flu shot at the same time. I chose to get one in each arm so I would know which, if any, caused soreness.

I was a little disappointed my keys haven't magnetically stuck to me after three doses, but I still have hope.


----------



## WG481 (Oct 10, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I got my third dose earlier this morning. The wait was kind of long (~40 minutes) since there were a lot of people, but all went well. I also got my flu shot at the same time. I chose to get one in each arm so I would know which, if any, caused soreness.
> 
> I was a little disappointed my keys haven't magnetically stuck to me after three doses, but I still have hope.


*gasp* Are you now emitting 6G??? Perhaps your own WiFi connection? Are you hospitalized?


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 11, 2021)

tabzer said:


> I'm not arguing against science by questioning the nature of your source.  Is it hearsay?  Is it "sponsored"?  How would you begin to prove that a source was "independent" unless it was by yourself, for yourself?
> 
> 
> Got covid 2x.  Weak and frail?


Lol, you aren’t arguing against it, you are just trying to change the topic because you have nothing.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Oct 11, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I was a little disappointed my keys haven't magnetically stuck to me after three doses, but I still have hope.


That's cuz it's a different kind of "magnet". As we speak, an asteroid is actually locked on to your location several light years away. And while your days are numbered, you can enjoy boosted 5G from the booster shot microchips.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 13, 2021)

This study seems promising,

A highly potent antibody effective against SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern



> *Summary*
> Control of the ongoing SARS-CoV-2 pandemic is endangered by the emergence of viral variants with increased transmission efficiency, resistance to marketed therapeutic antibodies, and reduced sensitivity to vaccine-induced immunity. Here, we screen B cells from COVID-19 donors and identify P5C3, a highly potent and broadly neutralizing monoclonal antibody with picomolar neutralizing activity against all SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern (VOCs) identified to date. Structural characterization of P5C3 Fab in complex with the spike demonstrates a neutralizing activity defined by a large buried surface area, highly overlapping with the receptor-binding domain (RBD) surface necessary for ACE2 interaction. We further demonstrate that P5C3 shows complete prophylactic protection in the SARS-CoV-2-infected hamster challenge model. These results indicate that P5C3 opens exciting perspectives either as a prophylactic agent in immunocompromised individuals with poor response to vaccination or as combination therapy in SARS-CoV-2-infected individuals.


----------



## WG481 (Oct 13, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> This study seems promising,
> 
> A highly potent antibody effective against SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern


So get your booster shots.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 13, 2021)

WG481 said:


> So get your booster shots.


That doesn't have anything to do with the study. If anything the study is for people who aren't good candidates for vaccination.


----------



## WG481 (Oct 13, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> That doesn't have anything to do with the study. If anything the study is for people who aren't good candidates for vaccination.


Sorry just needed to say my daily out of context stuff.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 14, 2021)

Anyone read that leaked DoD document about Project Salus?


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Oct 19, 2021)

Dakitten said:


> Your foolishness is cute, but science actually uses repeatable processes to predict outcomes with keen reliability, but blind faith is a coin flip at best. Perhaps you should add some facts and data instead of share your crazy?


No point in taking them seriously. They just joined today and their very first post is here of all places.


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 19, 2021)

kinoplex said:


> I just would like say say that no one should EVER doubt the word of *SCIENCE*!
> Those who would do such things are FOOLS!
> You would dare doubt the word of what created all of us? Gives us everything we have?
> The word of science is solid and unchanging. Immovable and unshakeable, _*NEVER to be questioned,*_ amen.
> ...


Just say you are afraid of science and stop making an ass of yourself 
That being said, the anti-vax crowd bring anything useful to the conversation?


----------



## Alexander1970 (Oct 20, 2021)

We are waiting (since February 2021) for NOVAVAX (includes me) with great Hope that it will hopefully be approved in the EU soon,but what a Coincidence....
The NOVAVAX Stock is suddenly dropping...

Due "Manufacturing difficulties".....wow....

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/19/novavax-vaccine-rush-process-global-campaign-516298


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 21, 2021)

Alexander1970 said:


> We are waiting (since February 2021) for NOVAVAX (includes me) with great Hope that it will hopefully be approved in the EU soon,but what a Coincidence....
> The NOVAVAX Stock is suddenly dropping...
> 
> Due "Manufacturing difficulties".....wow....
> ...



I wonder how much of that 1.6 billion dollars ended up in executive bonuses.


----------



## subcon959 (Oct 28, 2021)

This is a pretty interesting read.. it certainly clears up some stuff for me about why it's so hard to even have a conversation about it with some people.

https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101


----------



## phatphatz (Nov 15, 2021)

now something is gonna be wiggling inside me.


----------



## subcon959 (Nov 16, 2021)

"This video discusses new surprise discovery (yet to be confirmed by other scientists) that SARS-CoV-2 full length spike protein can enter human cell nuclei and interfere with fixing of broken DNA damage. Authors of the study propose this might have been evolved in order to prevent genetic recombination required to produce antibody variety to successfully attack the virus. If true, and if this could have important implications for potential negative health outcomes and might require reconfiguration of vaccine design."


----------



## Marc_LFD (Nov 16, 2021)

My father got his 3rd shot recently and now he's feeling ill and tremors, according to my mother.

The first time it went fine (maybe a placebo), second time he was unable to move as he gotten ill and an awful back pain, and now, the third time he's ill and got tremors.

I really hope he makes through, but others who got vaxxed haven't recovered from the tremors.

Also, he was desperate and anxious for me to get vaxxed. No, I'd rather die than be injected with it.

A shitstorm's afoot and I'm just not mentally and emotionally prepared how hard I try.

Got nothing else to say.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Nov 16, 2021)

Still not vaccinated but still looking forward (April 2022 or maybe earlier ?) when hopefully finally Valneva/Novavax are getting the EU EMA Certification.....


----------



## Marc_LFD (Nov 16, 2021)

Alexander1970 said:


> Still not vaccinated but still looking forward (April 2022 or maybe earlier ?) when hopefully finally Valneva/Novavax are getting the EU EMA Certification.....


I respect folks who take it, but I've noticed they don't respect those who refuse it for any reason, whatsoever. They mock, harass, become hostile.. Sigh.

I really hope my father won't have those tremors permanently as it basically makes him unable to live his life. He's being so obedient and then becomes another one hit with the "side" effects.

There's also one of my sister's who's been having pretty bad headaches who knows what originated. She also tried to coerce me to take it.


----------



## Dakitten (Nov 17, 2021)

Marc_78065 said:


> I respect folks who take it, but I've noticed they don't respect those who refuse it for any reason, whatsoever. They mock, harass, become hostile.. Sigh.
> 
> I really hope my father won't have those tremors permanently as it basically makes him unable to live his life. He's being so obedient and then becomes another one hit with the "side" effects.
> 
> There's also one of my sister's who's been having pretty bad headaches who knows what originated. She also tried to coerce me to take it.


Your sister sounds like a smart lady. The issue is that those who don't vaccinate or isolate are literally dangerous to others. Sorry to hear about the alleged complications your father is experiencing, but it is still irresponsible and a sign of abused first world privilege to dodge a vaccine if you can get one.


----------



## Lacius (Nov 17, 2021)

Marc_78065 said:


> No, I'd rather die than be injected with it.


Good news: You're significantly more likely to die if you don't get vaccinated, so your wish may come true.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Nov 17, 2021)

Marc_78065 said:


> My father got his 3rd shot recently and now he's feeling ill and tremors, according to my mother.
> 
> The first time it went fine (maybe a placebo), second time he was unable to move as he gotten ill and an awful back pain, and now, the third time he's ill and got tremors.
> 
> ...


The first shot is no placebo. Basically, the first dose of the vaccine starts the process of building up protection and then the second dose works to greatly reinforce this protection. The third shot basically does the same as the second that it helps reinforce the protection as the effects start to wear off after several months (as with many vaccines, like the yearly flu shot).

Side-effects are slightly common when taking vaccines, this isn't anything new. Many folks have temporarily gotten fevers and the like that only lasted for a brief moment and then gone.

"others who got vaxxed haven't recovered from the tremors" We have millions of vaccinated people who are doing just fine and recovered. Including myself, family, and friends. Don't know where you got the "haven't recovered from the tremors" part from except from those "viral videos", but the chances of such a thing to keep happening is extremely small and very unlikely to happen to most people.

So you'd rather die and potentially cause your own parents grief of seeing their own child die before they do and needing to pay for your funeral (and potentially large hospital bills). While the vaccine helps to greatly increase protection and even chance of survival if you do get infected (as data shows that even vaccinated people have a much higher chance of surviving than unvaccinated people and with a lot less permanent damages from the virus).


Marc_78065 said:


> I respect folks who take it, but I've noticed they don't respect those who refuse it for any reason, whatsoever. They mock, harass, become hostile.. Sigh.
> 
> I really hope my father won't have those tremors permanently as it basically makes him unable to live his life. He's being so obedient and then becomes another one hit with the "side" effects.
> 
> There's also one of my sister's who's been having pretty bad headaches who knows what originated. She also tried to coerce me to take it.


I feel it's more that a lot of us are becoming desensitized and more frustrated with all this as it goes on even longer. And that's not a good thing at all with many folks dying or surviving with permanent damages (like their lungs). The faster we get more people vaccinated, the slower the spread of the virus and its mutations, and the earlier we would be out of this mess. But instead people dumb down with the conspiracy theories and making it political and is why we're still nowhere near close to getting out of this pandemic as more and more people die from the virus. It's getting harder and harder to feel sympathetic since it keeps happening so many times every single day.

Side-effects are, again, common with any vaccines and are pretty much temporary and some people don't get the side-effects. I'm sure he came out just fine after getting out of the illness and back pain quickly soon afterwards.

Yes, the headaches are one of the possible side-effects you could get, but, again, it's *temporary*. You have a much lower chance of getting any serious problems with the vaccine than the virus and the virus has a higher chance of causing much more permanent damages to your own body and a higher chance of causing death to yourself and potentially other unvaccinated people around you.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 17, 2021)

Lacius said:


> Good news: You're significantly more likely to die if you don't get vaccinated, so your wish may come true.



As long as he stays off a ventilator, doesn't get shot, or is under 80, he'll probably be ok--in regards to Covid.  Don't you have some children to sacrifice?  I mean, to convince to be self-sacrificing for your future?


----------



## mrgone (Nov 17, 2021)

for the conspiracy friends:
i broke my foot less than half an hour after my second shot.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 17, 2021)

mrgone said:


> for the conspiracy friends:
> i broke my foot less than half an hour after my second shot.


Probably because you were experiencing a lack of coordination, due to the mental gymnastics of rationalizing investing your life in Pfizer.


----------



## mrgone (Nov 17, 2021)

tabzer said:


> Probably because you were experiencing a lack of coordination, due to the mental gymnastics rationalizing of investing your life in Pfizer.


no, i looked pretty hard at my certificate.
then there were 5 steps downwards


----------



## urherenow (Nov 17, 2021)

I'm not going to bother reading this thread. I'll just say that I recently took a 3rd shot of Moderna, and it was super mild compared to shot #2. #2 sucked. I will also say that in Japan, Many prefectures such as Tokyo were up to 2,700 to over 3,000 COVID positive cases a day, for weeks, when they finally started to get the ball rolling on vaccinating the general population (vice only elderly and such). They went up to 70% of the population having at least 1 dose pretty quick... and the numbers started dropping like rocks. It seems like it's been weeks now since Tokyo had even 40 positives in a day. Perhaps it has, but I no longer pay attention because it's so comparatively low, that restaurants are finally opening longer and bars are open.

The vaccines really do have a big impact. No they aren't perfect, but NO VACCINE IS. People even still get chickenpox after being inoculated, and have side effects or some kind of reaction to it. There really is nothing new here, except for how loud idiots can be heard on social media (I'm referring to the ones who say dumb crap like the shot puts tracking devices in you and such nonsense) compared to the past.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 17, 2021)

urherenow said:


> I'm not going to bother reading this thread. I'll just say that I recently took a 3rd shot of Moderna, and it was super mild compared to shot #2. #2 sucked. I will also say that in Japan, Many prefectures such as Tokyo were up to 2,700 to over 3,000 COVID positive cases a day, for weeks, when they finally started to get the ball rolling on vaccinating the general population (vice only elderly and such). They went up to 70% of the population having at least 1 dose pretty quick... and the numbers started dropping like rocks. It seems like it's been weeks now since Tokyo had even 40 positives in a day. Perhaps it has, but I no longer pay attention because it's so comparatively low, that restaurants are finally opening longer and bars are open.
> 
> The vaccines really do have a big impact. No they aren't perfect, but NO VACCINE IS. People even still get chickenpox after being inoculated, and have side effects or some kind of reaction to it. There really is nothing new here, except for how loud idiots can be heard on social media (I'm referring to the ones who say dumb crap like the shot puts tracking devices in you and such nonsense) compared to the past.



The numbers started dropping like rocks because people started treating it like the flu.  There are "rules" in place (masks and social distancing) but they aren't enforced.


----------



## Psionic Roshambo (Nov 17, 2021)

mrgone said:


> for the conspiracy friends:
> i broke my foot less than half an hour after my second shot.



Quite literally it was probably due to dizziness.... I drove home after the second shot about a 10 minute drive. If I had to drive any further I would have been calling a cab home... Felt like I had been drinking. I had an appointment later that night, not going to lie I asked my GF to drive because I didn't feel like it was a good idea for me to drive lol


----------



## urherenow (Nov 17, 2021)

tabzer said:


> The numbers started dropping like rocks because people started treating it like the flu.  There are "rules" in place (masks and social distancing) but they aren't enforced.


they don't have to be enforced. In Japan, people have been wearing masks LONG before COVID. The vast majority simply wear their masks anyway. The workforce is pretty brutal, and they don't even want to try taking a sick day if it can be avoided. If they feel sick, they wear a mask to work. It's that simple, and it's always been like that  as long as I've lived here.

The numbers dropped because of the Vaccinations. Period. Nothing else has changed here.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Nov 17, 2021)

Marc_78065 said:


> My father got his 3rd shot recently and now he's feeling ill and tremors, according to my mother.
> 
> The first time it went fine (maybe a placebo), second time he was unable to move as he gotten ill and an awful back pain, and now, the third time he's ill and got tremors.
> 
> ...



Proof of these symptoms and that they were caused from being vaccinated, or you're talking purely out of your ass.


----------



## Lacius (Nov 17, 2021)

tabzer said:


> As long as he stays off a ventilator, doesn't get shot, or is under 80, he'll probably be ok--in regards to Covid.  Don't you have some children to sacrifice?  I mean, to convince to be self-sacrificing for your future?


People don't get to choose whether or not they need a ventilator. If someone is unvaccinated, they're dramatically increasing the odds they will need one.

I don't sacrifice children. If you want to talk about sacrificing children in the name of ideology, I suggest you talk to the parents who refuse to vaccinate their children.


----------



## subcon959 (Nov 17, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I don't sacrifice children. If you want to talk about sacrificing children in the name of ideology, I suggest you talk to the parents who refuse to vaccinate their children.


No womb no opinion.. or whatever the equivalent is here.


----------



## Lacius (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> No womb no opinion.. or whatever the equivalent is here.


I am absolutely allowed to acknowledge the scientific facts behind what is more or less likely to result in the death of a child. You're contributing nothing to the discourse.


----------



## subcon959 (Nov 17, 2021)

Lacius said:


> I am absolutely allowed to acknowledge the scientific facts behind what is more or less likely to result in the death of a child. You're contributing nothing to the discourse.


Awesome, go ahead and quote the scientific facts concerning Covid-19 and children... this should be good.

EDIT: and after we've agreed that hardly any healthy children are at risk, no moving the goal posts to say well it's so they don't spread it to adults blah blah.

EDIT2: I'm feeling generous so here's the data from the UK GOV site..


----------



## appleburger (Nov 17, 2021)

Vaccines are never as risky as the disease they help fight, and anyone who genuinely thinks otherwise lacks critical thinking skills - period.


----------



## subcon959 (Nov 17, 2021)

appleburger said:


> Vaccines are never as risky as the disease they help fight, and anyone who genuinely thinks otherwise lacks critical thinking skills - period.


The data for the disease is right there above your post. It's such a small number that it's ridiculous to even consider vaccinating children no matter how small the risk is.. and btw the threat of myocarditis in young males due to the vaccine is nothing to shrug off. People wanting mandates for child vaccination can go take a long walk off a short pier.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> No womb no opinion.. or whatever the equivalent is here.



"MY BODY, MY RIGHT" But only when it applies to yourself and your own ideals. You don't give one fuck about anyone else's bodily rights unless they match your own. Just more right-wing hypocrisy at its finest.


----------



## subcon959 (Nov 17, 2021)

D34DL1N3R said:


> "MY BODY, MY RIGHT" But only when it applies to yourself and your own ideals. You don't give one fuck about anyone else's bodily rights unless they match your own. Just more right-wing hypocrisy at its finest.


Lay off the Ambien? Nothing you just said has anything to do with the discussion.


----------



## Lacius (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Awesome, go ahead and quote the scientific facts concerning Covid-19 and children... this should be good.
> 
> EDIT: and after we've agreed that hardly any healthy children are at risk, no moving the goal posts to say well it's so they don't spread it to adults blah blah.
> 
> EDIT2: I'm feeling generous so here's the data from the UK GOV site..


https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3

There have been hundreds of child deaths in the US as a result of COVID-19, and even when you control for comorbidities, COVID-19 is far more likely to kill a child than a COVID-19 vaccine.


----------



## subcon959 (Nov 17, 2021)

Lacius said:


> https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3
> 
> There have been hundreds of child deaths in the US as a result of COVID-19, and even when you control for comorbidities, COVID-19 is far more likely to kill a child than a COVID-19 vaccine.


That's 700 out of 756,961 total so you've just proved my point.


----------



## RocaBOT (Nov 17, 2021)

Still 700 more than from the vaccine.
Your point is biased.
And to both parties : could you PLEASE STOP asking for each other's death by drowning (for one part) and slur on the other (for the other part)? That adds nothing to the debate aside from making it very hard to read.


----------



## djpannda (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> That's 700 out of 756,961 total so you've just proved my point.


so you point is to not Vacciate Childern that although low death rate, can carry and spread Covid. So that a School out Break can infect 1000s of families per school....
You really want to explain to Timmy that He infected POP-POP and GAM-GAM with Covid he caught in school and they died because of that?


----------



## djpannda (Nov 17, 2021)

you missing the 2nd point of the Vaccine is to limit Spread and infection rate to reduce the risk of Mutation.

At this stage COVID does not kill kids in high numbers but we can be only 1 -2 mutation away from that.


----------



## subcon959 (Nov 17, 2021)

djpannda said:


> you missing the 2nd point of the Vaccine is to limit Spread and infection rate to reduce the risk of Mutation.
> 
> At this stage COVID does not kill kids in high numbers but we can be only 1 -2 mutation away from that.


Luckily, that's not how mutations work. I can't even imagine a case where a mutation would cause a shift in specificity to target age. Maybe ask Fauci if he has some way to do it through gain of function splicing.


----------



## appleburger (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> The data for the disease is right there above your post. It's such a small number that it's ridiculous to even consider vaccinating children no matter how small the risk is.. and btw the threat of myocarditis in young males due to the vaccine is nothing to shrug off. People wanting mandates for child vaccination can go take a long walk off a short pier.


The whole point is to reduce the risk of spreading the disease, so the "data for the disease" (vague statement btw) you posted isn't relevant to the entire point.

To think you know better than the entire healthcare professional opinion is asinine.  You need to do your homework before thinking you actually have a point to be made against an entire profession that's trying to help the planet during a pandemic.

This strategy wasn't developed at a round table with 100 people.  It's the consensus across the board of 99% of professionals who have studied this for a living.

Not to mention the fact that we've already been through this with previous pandemics.  It's fucking sad that people can't even bother to read up on _why _we're doing this.


----------



## djpannda (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Luckily, that's not how mutations work. I can't even imagine a case where a mutation would cause a shift in specificity to target age. Maybe ask Fauci if he has some way to do it through gain of function splicing.


lol yea its not going to target kids 5-15 ... its going to mutate to have a high mortality rate for..

          ...DRUMROLL...


_*ALL HUMANS.* _
Plus what does Fauci have to do with the Mutation of allowing a Virus (that has already mutated several times) to spread unchecked?


----------



## appleburger (Nov 17, 2021)

I can't believe I have to type this out for people, but the whole reason we vaccinate children is *to prevent spread.  *
It's not to prevent death in children. 
Children already receive vaccines to be allowed in school for diseases they will likely survive.

None of this is new.  We just have a new virus to contend with.

The entire reason COVID is dangerous is because it spreads so easily, so obviously a vaccine is a reasonable counter-measure, like it has been for decades.

And yes, that includes children.

If you think a low death rate in children rules out why they should be vaccinated, then you are clearly demonstrating how ignorant you are as to *why *so much effort is put into vaccinating - _especially_ in a pandemic.


----------



## Dakitten (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Luckily, that's not how mutations work. I can't even imagine a case where a mutation would cause a shift in specificity to target age. Maybe ask Fauci if he has some way to do it through gain of function splicing.


Y'know, call me a racist, but everything this guy says sounds like @!#[email protected]! to me. Bloody Qberts...

Seriously though, your input hasn't disrupted a single point, and yet you still yammer on like an outright fool. As a parent with kids in school, I can tell you I was mortified when, first week of in-person learning resuming in my small city, all but one school reported covid cases in either teachers or affiliated adults. My eldest son is still in at-home learning due to the pandemic (and he is eagerly awaiting his shot so he can go back!), and my sister, a teacher, dreads every day that one of her students might accidentally kill her off due to her preexisting health conditions making her particularly vulnerable. The vaccine being out there for kids will likely save thousands upon thousands of lives by limiting the spread, and as Lacius pointed out earlier, probably hundreds if not thousands of children worldwide too. If you have, say, some evidence the vaccine is going to maim or murder them at some greater rate, please feel free to share that, otherwise... how did you phrase it? No womb, no opinion?


----------



## Lacius (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> That's 700 out of 756,961 total so you've just proved my point.


My point, since you apparently weren't reading, was that a child is significantly more likely to die from COVID-19 than from the vaccine.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Nov 17, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> That wasn't me that said anything about sacrificing babies, grandpa..



Ok, you got me on that one. Now what about the rest? And grandpa? Is that supposed to be in insult? For the record, I am actually an INCREDIBLY proud grandpa. Sit tf down, hmmmmm, what's a good grandpa line? Oh... yeah. Sit tf down, sonny boy, before you hurt yourself and/or others.


----------



## WG481 (Nov 17, 2021)

How on earth is this conversation *still going?*


----------



## x65943 (Nov 17, 2021)

djpannda said:


> lol yea its not going to target kids 5-15 ... its going to mutate to have a high mortality rate for..
> 
> ...DRUMROLL...
> 
> ...


Although it's not clear the virus would mutate to become more deadly. Ultimately it spreads best when the symptoms are mild and viral load is high. Best case scenario from the virus's perspective  would be to reach a middle ground.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Nov 17, 2021)

WG481 said:


> How on earth is this conversation *still going?*


Simple, some people just don't want to believe in actual science, facts, and data all because they don't want to take a couple of shots that can help themselves and people around them. 

It'll continue to keep going as long as these folks continue to be stubborn and not priortize their own wellbeing along with others.


----------



## djpannda (Nov 17, 2021)

x65943 said:


> Although it's not clear the virus would mutate to become more deadly. Ultimately it spreads best when the symptoms are mild and viral load is high. Best case scenario from the virus's perspective  would be to reach a middle ground.


fine.... "possibly Mutate" ...


----------



## AsPika2219 (Dec 1, 2021)

Finally!!!  I injected 3rd dos vaccine! And now I have 2 dos Sinovac + 1 dos Pfizer!  
Meanwhile... beware of newest Omicron variant!


----------



## subcon959 (Dec 10, 2021)

Some good news, a new cocktail of monoclonal antibodies called Evusheld has been given EUA.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/fda-eua-astrazeneca-evusheld/


----------



## WG481 (Dec 10, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Some good news, a new cocktail of monoclonal antibodies called Evusheld has been given EUA.
> 
> https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/fda-eua-astrazeneca-evusheld/


Ohhh yeahhhh


----------



## subcon959 (Dec 12, 2021)

Another interesting video from the good doctor, this time about how the viral spike protein works.


----------



## subcon959 (Dec 20, 2021)

So Merck's new $700 anti-viral turns out to be 30% effective and yet somehow still manages to get an FDA EUA recommendation (13-10 vote).

I wonder if it's somehow related to the $2.2 billion government contract that would only proceed if it got the EUA


----------



## The Catboy (Dec 22, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> So Merck's new $700 anti-viral turns out to be 30% effective and yet somehow still manages to get an FDA EUA recommendation (13-10 vote).
> 
> I wonder if it's somehow related to the $2.2 billion government contract that would only proceed if it got the EUA


Oral medication is always less effective and has less yield than injections. That being said, this pill seems to be designed for those who can’t get shots, which is often the intended use for pills of these nature. This is also new and I wouldn’t be shocked if they end up finding better methods, like dissolving the pill under your tongue, patches, or methods of getting better yield rates.


----------



## subcon959 (Dec 22, 2021)

The Catboy said:


> Oral medication is always less effective and has less yield than injections. That being said, this pill seems to be designed for those who can’t get shots, which is often the intended use for pills of these nature. This is also new and I wouldn’t be shocked if they end up finding better methods, like dissolving the pill under your tongue, patches, or methods of getting better yield rates.


Except that their initial claims were much higher, I remember even I commented here somewhere that it was very promising as their studies were showing something approaching 90% efficacy at the time. I think the UK authorisation was even based off that study.. and now look where we are after the contracts have been made. Regardless of the medical aspects, this is shady stuff, and extremely reminiscent of the crap that Merck has pulled in the past. Some of those experts on the panel were concerned that the pill could actually do more harm than good.

Let's also not forget that this drug was developed with government funding (i.e tax payers) and costs around $17 to make. Yet somehow its totally okay for them to sell it back to the public at $700. Even if it had turned out to be effective that part is still shady as hell.


----------



## The Catboy (Dec 22, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Except that their initial claims were much higher, I remember even I commented here somewhere that it was very promising as their studies were showing something approaching 90% efficacy at the time. I think the UK authorisation was even based off that study.. and now look where we are after the contracts have been made. Regardless of the medical aspects, this is shady stuff, and extremely reminiscent of the crap that Merck has pulled in the past. Some of those experts on the panel were concerned that the pill could actually do more harm than good.
> 
> Let's also not forget that this drug was developed with government funding (i.e tax payers) and costs around $17 to make. Yet somehow its totally okay for them to sell it back to the public at $700. Even if it had turned out to be effective that part is still shady as hell.


I am not saying nothing shady could be going on, just point out the flaws with pills and possible means of getting better yields.
It honestly would be a higher yield if pills weren’t thrashed by the liver. Which is actually why dissolving pills under your tongue gets a slightly higher yield. This is more about me being annoyed with with the inefficiency of pills.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Dec 22, 2021)

Oral Medication has only one good Reason:

To treat infected Persons BEFORE they must have to go to the Hospital and become "Intensive" Patients....

Like they should have done before....then we would not have this Topic no longer about "Intensive Care Troubles"...

EDIT:
No better not...


----------



## subcon959 (Dec 22, 2021)

The Catboy said:


> I am not saying nothing shady could be going on, just point out the flaws with pills and possible means of getting better yields.
> It honestly would be a higher yield if pills weren’t thrashed by the liver. Which is actually why dissolving pills under your tongue gets a slightly higher yield. This is more about me being annoyed with with the inefficiency of pills.


I feel the same way, I really had high hopes for it even though I was sceptical when it was announced. That's just the nature of anti-virals unfortunately.


----------



## SG854 (Dec 22, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> Except that their initial claims were much higher, I remember even I commented here somewhere that it was very promising as their studies were showing something approaching 90% efficacy at the time. I think the UK authorisation was even based off that study.. and now look where we are after the contracts have been made. Regardless of the medical aspects, this is shady stuff, and extremely reminiscent of the crap that Merck has pulled in the past. Some of those experts on the panel were concerned that the pill could actually do more harm than good.
> 
> Let's also not forget that this drug was developed with government funding (i.e tax payers) and costs around $17 to make. Yet somehow its totally okay for them to sell it back to the public at $700. Even if it had turned out to be effective that part is still shady as hell.


Those are U.S. prices. Looks like U.S. industries got involved


----------



## The Catboy (Dec 22, 2021)

subcon959 said:


> I feel the same way, I really had high hopes for it even though I was sceptical when it was announced. That's just the nature of anti-virals unfortunately.


It’s more just the nature of pills themselves. Pills often need to either need to be higher dose or be taken in some way that bypasses the liver. The greatest “problem” here is literally a functional liver. I am actually kind of annoyed that doctors don’t often recommend better methods than ingestion, especially in this pill’s case. I am actually willing bet that the rate would be higher if they recommended dissolving the pill under your tongue. Just a rant from someone who’s limited to just pills as a means of living from day to day, so I kind of had to learn the best methods to get the most out of my pills.


----------



## SipahiBey (Dec 22, 2021)

Instead of forcing people to get vaccinated, make China pay for unleashing this virus onto us.


----------



## Lacius (Dec 22, 2021)

SipahiBey said:


> Instead of forcing people to get vaccinated, make China pay for unleashing this virus onto us.


Because only one of these will actually curb the spread of the virus and save lives.


----------



## SG854 (Dec 22, 2021)

SipahiBey said:


> Instead of forcing people to get vaccinated, make China pay for unleashing this virus onto us.


How does that stop covid from spreading?


----------



## SipahiBey (Dec 22, 2021)

SG854 said:


> How does that stop covid from spreading?



If the government created the virus, it can also find a cure for the virus. Its known by now that the virus was a result of gain of function research in Wuhan, funded with NIH money.

Simple make the Chinese pay Billions if not trillions in compensation.


----------



## RocaBOT (Dec 23, 2021)

which still does not solve the problem that it is here now and we need to deal with it NOW. Get your fucking jabs or stop talking nonsense if you don't want to, saying stupidities like that gets us nowhere.


----------



## Viri (Dec 29, 2021)

This fucking cunt.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 30, 2021)

Fake it until you make it.  If you don't make it, just pretend it never happened and move onto the next goalpost.


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Jan 6, 2022)

I honestly do not get the point about being afraid of getting the vaccine. I hate needles as much as anyone else, (the worst being in the mouth when I have to get dental work done, I just do not like sharp object near my face or anywhere sensitive thank you) But its far less painful than being sick with the shit, which I was prior to the release of the vaccine last year. Having a week of nothing but high fevers, and a hard time breathing among the other issues was not easy to deal with. Hell one of the days my temp rose so high I basically put myself in a tub of cold water to hopefully bring myself down. It technically worked, but the rest of the day my internal temperature was fucked and all over the place.  Never had to deal with that before honestly, and I hope not to do that again.

People think that covid is somehow going to get eradicated when it is nearly impossible to do so, the best case you can hope for is a variant that while spreading fast will not have a deadly payload for most of its infected. If its anything like the typical flu then the rate of death will be much lower and be resided to those who have compromised immune systems or older age (or those who prefer tinfoil hats than the vaccine). In the long run most people will probably not even need the vaccine except for those that simply cannot handle getting sick at all. That's why we have flu shots, and above that we continue having flu shots because (shocker) the flu virus also changes up every season. For a lot of people its optional to take the vaccine for that now as most of us can handle it. Covid was something new that the human body was not familiar with, and as a result did things that were different and potentially more damaging the first time around. Future variants however should have lesser impact on most people if things go the way they should. Omnicron shows that this outlook is very much obtainable in the short term. 


But hell, if you want to still be afraid of the vaccine, just remember that you put worse things in your body every day whether it be soda, junk food, fast food, anything with caffeine, or if you are a city runt that wonderful atmosphere you are breathing in every moment you are outside. Plus those fake ass cures probably have more dangerous chemicals in them than anything you get pricked in the arm with. All I have to say is, if you want to avoid it then please do the rest of the human race a favor and just down the rest of your favorite fake cure so you do not have to be a problem for the rest of us much longer. The Darwin awards will await you all.


----------



## djpannda (Jan 6, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> I honestly do not get the point about being afraid of getting the vaccine. I hate needles as much as anyone else, (the worst being in the mouth when I have to get dental work done, I just do not like sharp object near my face or anywhere sensitive thank you) But its far less painful than being sick with the shit, which I was prior to the release of the vaccine last year. Having a week of nothing but high fevers, and a hard time breathing among the other issues was not easy to deal with. Hell one of the days my temp rose so high I basically put myself in a tub of cold water to hopefully bring myself down. It technically worked, but the rest of the day my internal temperature was fucked and all over the place.  Never had to deal with that before honestly, and I hope not to do that again.
> 
> People think that covid is somehow going to get eradicated when it is nearly impossible to do so, the best case you can hope for is a variant that while spreading fast will not have a deadly payload for most of its infected. If its anything like the typical flu then the rate of death will be much lower and be resided to those who have compromised immune systems or older age (or those who prefer tinfoil hats than the vaccine). In the long run most people will probably not even need the vaccine except for those that simply cannot handle getting sick at all. That's why we have flu shots, and above that we continue having flu shots because (shocker) the flu virus also changes up every season. For a lot of people its optional to take the vaccine for that now as most of us can handle it. Covid was something new that the human body was not familiar with, and as a result did things that were different and potentially more damaging the first time around. Future variants however should have lesser impact on most people if things go the way they should. Omnicron shows that this outlook is very much obtainable in the short term.
> 
> ...


.. because Political hacks attached themselves to Anti-Vaxxer in an effort to rally opposition to  The Current US administration. Then it created a huge Snowball affect that, Normal VAXXED Republicans are not able to control. (Mind you 99% of all Republican officials are Vaccinated, but stated\ "HIPPA" and they are too afraid to go against the monster they created.

 Plainly stated : Its not because their are afraid, just that they are Politically Sheep.


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Jan 6, 2022)

djpannda said:


> .. because Political hacks attached themselves to Anti-Vaxxer in an effort to rally opposition to  The Current US administration. Then it created a huge Snowball affect that, Normal VAXXED Republicans are not able to control. (Mind you 99% of all Republican officials are Vaccinated, but stated\ "HIPPA" and they are too afraid to go against the monster they created.
> 
> Plainly stated : Its not because their are afraid, just that they are Politically Sheep.


Fearmongering is still fear at the base of it. It just wears the mask of ignorance and worship that comes from this new age of Political mindset. 

When Politics gets in the way of truth and actual science, humanity will suffer as a result of it.


----------



## djpannda (Jan 6, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> Fearmongering is still fear at the base of it. It just wears the mask of ignorance and worship that comes from this new age of Political mindset.
> 
> When Politics gets in the way of truth and actual science, humanity will suffer as a result of it.


but we are taking about a base that would rally against Free Electrictly and clean water if it Hurt The Political rival.....
oh wait that happen..
We are taking about a base that would kill themselves if it hurt the political rivals...
oh wait...


----------



## Glyptofane (Jan 6, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> Fearmongering is still fear at the base of it. It just wears the mask of ignorance and worship that comes from this new age of Political mindset.
> 
> When Politics gets in the way of truth and actual science, humanity will suffer as a result of it.





djpannda said:


> but we are taking about a base that would rally against Free Electrictly and clean water if it Hurt The Political rival.....
> oh wait that happen..
> We are taking about a base that would kill themselves if it hurt the political rivals...
> oh wait...


Great, you've figured us all out. Now go enjoy being vaccinated biomutants and leave the rest of us alone. You can always find solace in the fact that you can't contract, transmit, or be hospitalized by the virus.


----------



## djpannda (Jan 6, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> Great, you've figured us all out. Now go enjoy being vaccinated biomutants and leave the rest of us alone. You can always find solace in the fact that you can't contract, transmit, or be hospitalized by the virus.


funny I don't remember seeing your pre 2020 posts about the other 7-9 vaccines that you were given before attending school.. please provide the links of your Courageous Stuggle against  Whopping cough Vaccine.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 6, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> Now go enjoy being vaccinated biomutants and leave the rest of us alone.


The vaccine does not make one a "biomutant," and it does not alter one's DNA. It trains your adaptive immune system to be able to readily respond to the real virus.



Glyptofane said:


> You can always find solace in the fact that you can't contract, transmit, or be hospitalized by the virus.


Vaccinated people are significantly less likely to contract, transmit, be hospitalized by, or die from the virus. The more people who are vaccinated in a population, the less the virus will spread in that population.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jan 6, 2022)

I would just like to say that we currently have *420* “Yes” votes, which constitutes *69% *(rounded), and that kind of makes me want to close the poll and call it a day.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 6, 2022)

Everybody has their own idea of why the vaccines exist and why others do or do not take them.  It appears that virtue signaling is more important than the results.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 7, 2022)

SipahiBey said:


> If the government created the virus, it can also find a cure for the virus. Its known by now that the virus was a result of gain of function research in Wuhan, funded with NIH money.
> 
> Simple make the Chinese pay Billions if not trillions in compensation.


The Chinese government didn't create Covid and suing them for a natural virus is stupid.
Been a few weeks and looks like the anti-vax crowd is still posting garbage.


----------



## subcon959 (Jan 7, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The Chinese government didn't create Covid and suing them for a natural virus is stupid.
> Been a few weeks and looks like the anti-vax crowd is still posting garbage.


If they are blaming the NIH for the gain of function research, then technically it would be American money that enhanced the natural virus into it's deadly state


----------



## tabzer (Jan 7, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The Chinese government didn't create Covid and suing them for a natural virus is stupid.
> Been a few weeks and looks like the anti-vax crowd is still posting garbage.


Sounds like something Rachel Maddow would say.  I guess people should just take your word for it.


----------



## CompassNorth (Jan 8, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The Chinese government didn't create Covid and suing them for a natural virus is stupid.


That'd be pretty neat to see. Conspiracy theorists going to mainland china to sue the CCP over the virus.
Wonder how that would turn out.


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Jan 10, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The Chinese government didn't create Covid and suing them for a natural virus is stupid.
> Been a few weeks and looks like the anti-vax crowd is still posting garbage.


Perhaps they were hoping they would pay compensation for it, you know like how some people thought that we were going to get Mexico to pay for that shitty wall. 

Everything is easier to target when it has a face. Its much harder to accept the fact that some things are faceless/formless and just exists to make life harder for everyone. But to hell about working together and fighting it, lets instead waste effort to find someone to put blame on it and fill the gap with conspiracy theories.

I wish for the days when not everyone had access to the internet. It caused mind rot to spread faster than the covid virus itself. Idiocracy is looking to be more of a possibility in our reality with each passing year at this point.


----------



## djpannda (Jan 10, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> Perhaps they were hoping they would pay compensation for it, you know like how some people thought that we were going to get Mexico to pay for that shitty wall.
> 
> Everything is easier to target when it has a face. Its much harder to accept the fact that some things are faceless/formless and just exists to make life harder for everyone. But to hell about working together and fighting it, lets instead waste effort to find someone to put blame on it and fill the gap with conspiracy theories.
> 
> I wish for the days when not everyone had access to the internet. It caused mind rot to spread faster than the covid virus itself. Idiocracy is looking to be more of a possibility in our reality with each passing year at this point.


What are you talking bout? We Don't need a Vaccine when I can piss directly in peoples months
Anti-Vax Leader Urges Followers to Drink Their Own Urine to Fight COVID​


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Jan 10, 2022)

djpannda said:


> What are you talking bout? We Don't need a Vaccine when I can piss directly in peoples months
> Anti-Vax Leader Urges Followers to Drink Their Own Urine to Fight COVID​


Sometimes I wonder if I had woken up to find myself in a South Park episode. Shit like this only encourages me to believe this.


----------



## Kurt91 (Jan 10, 2022)

djpannda said:


> What are you talking bout? We Don't need a Vaccine when I can piss directly in peoples months
> Anti-Vax Leader Urges Followers to Drink Their Own Urine to Fight COVID​


You link leads to an article titled
Cops Pepper-Spray Rowdy Djokovic Fans After Detention Court Victory​
What does one have to do with the other?


----------



## djpannda (Jan 10, 2022)

Kurt91 said:


> You link leads to an article titled
> Cops Pepper-Spray Rowdy Djokovic Fans After Detention Court Victory​
> What does one have to do with the other?


Sorry original link was a scolling Headline feed link. Fix original link and heres alt link in case
Anti-Vax Leader Urges Followers to Drink Their Own Urine to Fight CO…


----------



## Deleted member 568892 (Jan 28, 2022)

This is one shit thread I prefer to avoid but I have some questions to ask. Personally I was reluctant to get vaccinated because I didn't want to suffer any side effects but eventually my parents bribed me with an offer I couldn't refuse. At my age being unvaccinated is a very safe risk.

I have a relative living in Europe who is constantly complaining about the coronavirus. On one hand he's an idiot not worth listening to but on the other I find it hard to deny what he's saying. His claims are pretty much the following.

- Over 99% of people make a full recovery
- Everyone will get the coronavirus sooner or later so we should just let it spread
- The state media is scaring everyone into obedience
- Those who cooperated with coronavirus restrictions don't want to accept they were fooled by the government
- The vaccine mandates are unjust and unnecessary
- Everyone who got vaccinated did so only to keep their jobs
- The coronavirus is just another flu
- The coronavirus was made in a lab sponsored by America

What do you have to say about his claims?


----------



## RocaBOT (Jan 28, 2022)

most of them are BS is what I have to say. This shit put our healthcare systems on its knees between 2 and 3 times at least in European countries. Many people with unrelated pathologies have been delayed treatment and operations thanks to hospitals being overflown with severe covid cases.
Sure, covid patients survived, but at what cost? Many died, many others died of unrelated things because they could not be treated (thanks to healthcare being completely blocked by this shit)
Peeps want to take any good enough solution, including vaccines, to try and alleviate that so they can have the insurance of there being room to be treated for other things if and when they need to. Let it spread? Sure, see you in 5 waves when the heathcare system will be so dead you can't even get simple treatment for the flu or a broken bone for months at a time, great idea!
It's not just a flu, it spreads fast enough that it made our healthcare suffer, and is still doing so as of this day. When was the last time our healthcare systems in developed countries got so clogged that people died in numbers of completely unrelated things? Most likely eons ago during the last big wars, when wounded were overflowing.

As for where it came from, I don't buy any of this shit, everyone left and right is saying deepshit about that. The thing is: nobody cares, we're all in it now, nobody is getting any respite from it. We'll know the facts someday, but I feel it's better we get all the help we can while we need it, and start pointing fingers like kindergartners when it's finished and we can afford it.

Also, state media doesn't need cvid to spread fear, it has been doing so with many other subjects before, and still is doing: non-existant "woke" threat, insecurity, immigration, and so on. State media (and politicians too) are very good at selling you stories about non-existing deadly enemies that many of us will buy just because it's easier than to put the governments into default. This is neither here nor there though, covid is a worldwide thing that needs to be properly handled (since it cannot be stopped anyway), if we want to have the luxury of stopping the parasites leading our lives and of saving our planet and lives.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 28, 2022)

Mike_Hunt said:


> This is one shit thread I prefer to avoid but I have some questions to ask. Personally I was reluctant to get vaccinated because I didn't want to suffer any side effects but eventually my parents bribed me with an offer I couldn't refuse. At my age being unvaccinated is a very safe risk.
> 
> I have a relative living in Europe who is constantly complaining about the coronavirus. On one hand he's an idiot not worth listening to but on the other I find it hard to deny what he's saying. His claims are pretty much the following.
> 
> ...


I am glad your parents convinced you get vaccinated and I hope you continue to get your vaccinations. 
1: Source
2: Thats a terrible mentality and will only help the virus mutant more. It was a dumb mentality with diseases like chicken pox and it’s even dumber with Covid.
3: That’s literally conspiracy nonsense and the countries that did cooperate with restrictions have far less spread of covid.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/countries-where-coronavirus-has-spread/
4: This is an opinion and at this point it’s becoming a dangerous one for countries like the US. 
5: this is also an opinion and unprovable one as everyone has their own reasons to get vaccinated and doesn’t matter what those reasons are.
6: no, it is not another flu. The flu is Influenza viruses, Covid is SARS-CoV-2. These are not the same and shouldn’t be considered the same. Their effects on the body are also not the same. This was stupid when Trump said it and it’s stupid that people are still repeating it.
7: Source?


----------



## Glyptofane (Jan 28, 2022)

Mike_Hunt said:


> This is one shit thread I prefer to avoid but I have some questions to ask. Personally I was reluctant to get vaccinated because I didn't want to suffer any side effects but eventually my parents bribed me with an offer I couldn't refuse. At my age being unvaccinated is a very safe risk.
> 
> I have a relative living in Europe who is constantly complaining about the coronavirus. On one hand he's an idiot not worth listening to but on the other I find it hard to deny what he's saying. His claims are pretty much the following.
> 
> ...


Yes, all that and more is true and obviously so.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 28, 2022)

What I love is the double standard provided by this line of thought:

"We don't know the long term effect of covid on your system"

and

"The vaccines are safe and effective.  If there were long term effects, we'd know about them by now."

/smokes a cigarette thinking *no side effects so far*

By the time I contract covid, it'll probably be unnoticeable or seem like a weak version of the flu.  Or maybe I had it, and can thank not being vaccinated for the easy experience.

Glad I don't have to roll around in a plastic ball anymore.  Unfortunately others on this board don't have it so great.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 28, 2022)

tabzer said:


> What I love is the double standard provided by this line of thought:
> 
> "We don't know the long term effect of covid on your system"
> 
> ...


There isn’t a double standard, you just don’t understand how vaccines work and decided your ignorance is fact. Side-effects from vaccines show up a few minutes to a few hours, then only last a few days (at most a week.) Anything longer is typically linked to another pre-existing condition(s.) There aren’t going to be side-effects showing up later on down the road, that’s never happened with vaccines. If I am wrong, show me a source instead of your opinion.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 29, 2022)

Ignorance about long-term side effects is a fact.  Many people form the opinion that there are no (or cannot be)  long-term side effects because of that fact.  The ignorance of long-term side effects is literally the foundation of the claim.

Here's another.  Numbers corroborate when targeting the desired outcome, but correlation does not imply causation when the implication is uncomfortable.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 29, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Ignorance about long-term side effects is a fact.  Many people form the opinion that there are no (or cannot be)  long-term side effects because of that fact.  The ignorance of long-term side effects is literally the foundation of the claim.
> 
> Here's another.  Numbers corroborate when targeting the desired outcome, but correlation does not imply causation when the implication is uncomfortable.


That sure looks like a source debunking what said. If there were any “long-term side-effects” they would have shown up a long time ago because side-effects of vaccines don’t just show up randomly months to years down the road.


----------



## xIce101x (Jan 29, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I am glad your parents convinced you get vaccinated and I hope you continue to get your vaccinations.
> 1: Source
> 2: Thats a terrible mentality and will only help the virus mutant more. It was a dumb mentality with diseases like chicken pox and it’s even dumber with Covid.
> 3: That’s literally conspiracy nonsense and the countries that did cooperate with restrictions have far less spread of covid.
> ...


Source to number 1 is based off numbers found on worldometer. The death rate percentage sits at 1.53% and is likely much lower due to asymptomatic people not getting tested or people just quarantining and never getting tested. Not 99% recovery but pretty close


----------



## tabzer (Jan 29, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> That sure looks like a source debunking what said. If there were any “long-term side-effects” they would have shown up a long time ago because side-effects of vaccines don’t just show up randomly months to years down the road.


You claimed that ignorance of side effects is not a fact.  That's a false claim.  I don't think anything would be random in relationship to side-effects, and if pharmaceutical companies would investigate themselves to find problems with their own products--that'd be a bigger surprise to me.

"Correlation does not imply causation" is the wonderful go-to logic when it comes to hand-waving away any claim of side-effects.  Except correlation implies causation when it comes to corroborating the product-positive side of things.

It's not "science".  It's marketing.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 29, 2022)

xIce101x said:


> Source to number 1 is based off numbers found on worldometer. The death rate percentage sits at 1.53% and is likely much lower due to asymptomatic people not getting tested or people just quarantining and never getting tested. Not 99% recovery but pretty close


The issue is “full recovery” because that’s not what’s recorded, only a recovery is recorded. That does not record those who are dealing with long-term damages from Covid nor other complicated recoveries. That’s the problem with using that statistic, it’s not clear to the additional damages caused by Covid.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 29, 2022)

xIce101x said:


> Source to number 1 is based off numbers found on worldometer. The death rate percentage sits at 1.53% and is likely much lower due to asymptomatic people not getting tested or people just quarantining and never getting tested. Not 99% recovery but pretty close


1.53% of the American population is over 5 million people. Globally, 1.53% is almost 121 million people.



tabzer said:


> You claimed that ignorance of side effects is not a fact.  That's a false claim.  I don't think anything would be random in relationship to side-effects, and if pharmaceutical companies would investigate themselves to find problems with their own products--that'd be a bigger surprise to me.
> 
> "Correlation does not imply causation" is the wonderful go-to logic when it comes to hand-waving away any claim of side-effects.  Except correlation implies causation when it comes to corroborating the product-positive side of things.
> 
> It's not "science".  It's marketing.


There is no evidence of long term side effects from the COVID-19 vaccines. Across the board, there has been no increase in the frequency of any medical condition that hasn't already been associated with something else (COVID-19, for example).

There is ample evidence that the vaccines significantly reduce the risks of illness, the spread of illness, long-term side effects from COVID-19, hospitalization, death, etc.

Tabzer, you are an idiot. You are an idiot to believe vaccines have or are likely to have long-term side effects when you have no evidence demonstrating this to be true, and you have ample evidence demonstrating this to not be true. You are gullible, you are foolish, and you don't understand what it means to be rational. Your anti-vax posts are irrational, unintelligent, incompetent, and immoral. I fully believe there is nothing anyone could say to change your mind, which shows just how little you care about the truth of the matter. Whenever someone asks you to provide evidence of your claims, you shamelessly ignore their requests and continue to spout anti-vax nonsense. Your posts are undeserving of anyone's attention, and for the literal sake of people's lives, I hope they pay little if any attention to your posts.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 29, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Tabzer, you are an idiot. You are an idiot to believe vaccines have or are likely to have long-term side effects when you have no evidence demonstrating this to be true, and you have ample evidence demonstrating this to not be true. You are gullible, you are foolish, and you don't understand what it means to be rational. Your anti-vax posts are irrational, unintelligent, incompetent, and immoral. I fully believe there is nothing anyone could say to change your mind, which shows just how little you care about the truth of the matter. Whenever someone asks you to provide evidence of your claims, you shamelessly ignore their requests and continue to spout anti-vax nonsense. Your posts are undeserving of anyone's attention, and for the literal sake of people's lives, I hope they pay little if any attention to your posts.



Put the strawman down for a bit, Lacius.  If you want to argue against something I said instead of throwing your baggage around, please feel free.  This is what you resort to when you don't get your way, and that's not surprising.

If you want to conclude that vaccines don't have side effects based on ignorance surrounding it, that's your prerogative.  I suspend my belief either way.  If those who have made and marketed the vaccine cannot demonstrate full understanding of how the vaccine works, it is unreasonable to me to accept "their" conclusive claims about it.

You cannot say "safe and effective" without 20 asterisks and hundreds of pages of fine print (including changes to definitions, government policies, and extended mandates).  It's not "anti-vax" by pointing this out.  I'm actually complementing your overzealousness with a dose of objectivity.


----------



## xIce101x (Jan 29, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The issue is “full recovery” because that’s not what’s recorded, only a recovery is recorded. That does not record those who are dealing with long-term damages from Covid nor other complicated recoveries. That’s the problem with using that statistic, it’s not clear to the additional damages caused by Covid.


That’s true. I didn’t catch the “fully recover” on his post. I know someone who got it in March of 2020 and he’s still dealing with shortness of breath


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 29, 2022)

xIce101x said:


> That’s true. I didn’t catch the “fully recover” on his post. I know someone who got it in March of 2020 and he’s still dealing with shortness of breath


I got it at the start of the year and still dealing with some complications as a result. The long-term effects of Covid on the body is rough


----------



## xIce101x (Jan 29, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I got it at the start of the year and still dealing with some complications as a result. The long-term effects of Covid on the body is rough


I got it December 2020 and got over it in about 48 hours. Only had severe body aches and a splitting headache with a low grade fever. It’s crazy how it effects everyone differently


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 29, 2022)

xIce101x said:


> I got it December 2020 and got over it in about 48 hours. Only had severe body aches and a splitting headache with a low grade fever. It’s crazy how it effects everyone differently


My immune system simply does not vibe and did not have a good time with Covid. My wife got it around the same time and recovered in like 5 days with only a few days of additional recovery. I took like a week and a half and I am still still having issues with everything.


----------



## xIce101x (Jan 29, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> My immune system simply does not vibe and did not have a good time with Covid. My wife got it around the same time and recovered in like 5 days with only a few days of additional recovery. I took like a week and a half and I am still still having issues with everything.


The guy who gave it to me was according to him the sickest he’s ever been in his 42 years of living and it took him 3 weeks to kick it. He lost 20lbs from sweating so much. He texted me a week after giving it to me and couldn’t believe I was already fine when he still had a fever and felt like death. Hopefully you get back to baseline soon


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 29, 2022)

xIce101x said:


> The guy who gave it to me was according to him the sickest he’s ever been in his 42 years of living and it took him 3 weeks to kick it. He lost 20lbs from sweating so much. He texted me a week after giving it to me and couldn’t believe I was already fine when he still had a fever and felt like death. Hopefully you get back to baseline soon


I am glad he was able to kick it! But yeah, Covid is no joke when it actually fucks someone up.
I hope so too! Getting tired of feeling meh


----------



## KingVamp (Jan 29, 2022)

Mike_Hunt said:


> - Those who cooperated with coronavirus restrictions don't want to accept they were fooled by the government


Fooled how exactly? People are getting sick and people are dying. In that case, why does it matter that the "goberment" that did it? The only ones that seem to be getting fooled, are the masterminds that are hollowing themselves out with ivermectin.



Mike_Hunt said:


> - The state media is scaring everyone into obedience


To what end? To slow down the whole economy?  



Mike_Hunt said:


> - Everyone will get the coronavirus sooner or later so we should just let it spread


You are right. Who needs medicine? Let's just spread all the diseases. 



Mike_Hunt said:


> - Over 99% of people make a full recovery
> - The coronavirus is just another flu
> - The coronavirus was made in a lab sponsored by America


It was made in a lab, but it is not actually a big deal, guys. 



Mike_Hunt said:


> - The coronavirus was made in a lab sponsored by America


Is every government on to this ruse or is everyone else wasting time scrambling to lessen the damage of this  "not a big deal" virus?



Mike_Hunt said:


> What do you have to say about his claims?


If this misinformation wasn't harmful, it would be funny.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 29, 2022)

If you are riddled with comorbidities, it appears that their effects will be catalyzed upon contracting covid.  Does that mean it's covid's fault?  If you are okay with telling healthy people that they might die if they don't get vaccinated, you'd probably say "yes, everything is covid's fault."


----------



## stanna (Jan 29, 2022)

This thread makes me laugh, you say the vaccine is safe, it's not been out 2 years yet and already thousands are dying from heart related problems or suffering life changing effects.

https://www.banned.video/watch?id=61f08a740388fd1a8a6afca9


----------



## Deleted member 568892 (Jan 29, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I am glad your parents convinced you get vaccinated and I hope you continue to get your vaccinations.
> 1: Source
> 2: Thats a terrible mentality and will only help the virus mutant more. It was a dumb mentality with diseases like chicken pox and it’s even dumber with Covid.
> 3: That’s literally conspiracy nonsense and the countries that did cooperate with restrictions have far less spread of covid.
> ...


Do you have any sources comparing the death rate by age group and vaccination status?


----------



## RocaBOT (Jan 29, 2022)

stanna said:


> This thread makes me laugh, you say the vaccine is safe, it's not been out 2 years yet and already thousands are dying from heart related problems or suffering life changing effects.
> 
> https://www.banned.video/watch?id=61f08a740388fd1a8a6afca9


Thousands are dying from heart-related conditions in the non-vaccinated population too, there's literally no difference between the two for this. If anything, the proportion in vaccinated people seems a bit lower than the general population, even.
Next please!


----------



## CloudStrife190100 (Jan 29, 2022)

Had my 1st 2 jabs but not having anymore. 2 pricks is enough


----------



## subcon959 (Jan 29, 2022)

CloudStrife190100 said:


> 2 pricks is enough


so.. many.. thoughts.. brain... hurts.


----------



## AncientBoi (Jan 29, 2022)

I got my 3rd shot yesterday. All of them are Moderna. I did want to mix in the Pfiser one for the third, but what the hey. Oh my damn arm hurts. Again.


----------



## stanna (Jan 29, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> Thousands are dying from heart-related conditions in the non-vaccinated population too, there's literally no difference between the two for this. If anything, the proportion in vaccinated people seems a bit lower than the general population, even.
> Next please!


So did you even watch it


----------



## smf (Jan 29, 2022)

You are way more likely to get myocarditis within 28 days of a covid infection if you are unvaccinated than within 28 days of a vaccine.



Mike_Hunt said:


> Do you have any sources comparing the death rate by age group and vaccination status?



Vaccination status, but not age group...

https://www.ed.ac.uk/usher/news-events/news-2021/risk-of-heart-inflammation-covid-vaccine-infection

I'm not going to waste my time watching mind bending propaganda on banned.video. I have dignity.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 29, 2022)

Only Pfizer sponsored propaganda for me!


----------



## smf (Jan 29, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Only Pfizer sponsored propaganda for me!



What are you talking about?


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 29, 2022)

Mike_Hunt said:


> Do you have any sources comparing the death rate by age group and vaccination status?


Yes
https://data.cdc.gov/Public-Health-...ses-or-Deaths-by-Age-Group-and/3rge-nu2a/data
I also have data on the unvaccinated vs vaccinated
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm


stanna said:


> So did you even watch it


There's literally no reason to watch that, it's a garbage site and it's not worth wasting time on


----------



## tabzer (Jan 30, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> There's literally no reason to watch that, it's a garbage site and it's not worth wasting time on


Confirmation bias runs strong on both sides of the aisle.  There is no point in asking for a source if you are willing to resort to ad hominems to dismiss information you do not like.  Do you do it because you've learned to validate yourself by being a labrat?  Not everyone desires to be that degenerate.


----------



## Dakitten (Jan 30, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Confirmation bias runs strong on both sides of the aisle.  There is no point in asking for a source if you are willing to resort to ad hominems to dismiss information you do not like.  Do you do it because you've learned to validate yourself by being a labrat?  Not everyone desires to be that degenerate.


Unless a video actually is documenting evidence visually, it will have to be citing sources that can be checked and verified. If you want some credibility, go past the video and throw down some sources. Nobody wants to watch "the other side" grandstand about something when you can just skip the presenter and get to the resources yourself. Oh, but that video has garbage sources that are repeatedly disproved? How sad.


----------



## smf (Jan 30, 2022)

tabzer said:


> in asking for a source if you are willing to resort to ad hominems to dismiss information you do not like. Do you do it because you've learned to validate yourself by being a labrat? Not everyone desires to be that degenerate.



People only post on banned.video to bypass scrutiny. They only wish to speak out to their echo chamber for their own benefit.

There isn't a conspiracy. The establishment would be desperate to see any evidence that is contrary to current theories, that is how science works.

All the evidence that backs up the current theories is boring and doesn't excite you. That is a poor way of determining what is true, but some people are eager for that.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 30, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> Unless a video actually is documenting evidence visually, it will have to be citing sources that can be checked and verified. If you want some credibility, go past the video and throw down some sources. Nobody wants to watch "the other side" grandstand about something when you can just skip the presenter and get to the resources yourself. Oh, but that video has garbage sources that are repeatedly disproved? How sad.



Doubling down, and ironically.  You are wrong.  Thanks for validating my assertion.




smf said:


> The establishment would be desperate to see any evidence that is contrary to current theories, that is how science works.



Claims like this is why I decided to not argue with you anymore.  I cannot believe you genuinely think like that.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 30, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Doubling down, and ironically.  You are wrong.  Thanks for validating my assertion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because you don't understand how science works and you dislike when people point that out to you?


----------



## stanna (Jan 30, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Because you don't understand how science works and you dislike when people point that out to you?


Oh fuck you must be retarded  if you actually are I'm sorry but that's funny as fuck.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 30, 2022)

stanna said:


> Oh fuck you must be retarded  if you actually are I'm sorry but that's funny as fuck.


I am actually autistic and you’ve not contributed to this thread beyond being a middle aged dude posting garbage links to conspiracy sites. I am starting to learn that age doesn’t bring wisdom.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Because you don't understand how science works and you dislike when people point that out to you?


Despiteful remarks are neither here or there.  If you are comfortable with your head in the sand, I am in no position to pull it out for you.

I will mention that it is incredibly selfish of you to request others to get vaccinated so that you feel safer.  It presumes your life is more valuable when your actions continually stress reevaluation.

Why should people choose you over themselves?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> If you are comfortable with your head in the sand


You're refusing to get vaccinated, despite the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence that shows vaccines to be safe and effective, and despite the scientific evidence showing the serious risks associated with COVID-19. You're literally an anti-vax COVID denier.

I don't think anyone could reasonably say @The Catboy is the one with their head in the sand, lol.

I don't know if you're being hypocritical and ridiculous on purpose or if you're just plain stupid.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

Lacius said:


> You're refusing to get vaccinated, despite the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence that shows vaccines to be safe and effective, and despite the scientific evidence showing the serious risks associated with COVID-19. You're literally an anti-vax COVID denier.
> 
> I don't think anyone could reasonably say @The Catboy is the one with their head in the sand, lol.
> 
> I don't know if you're being hypocritical and ridiculous on purpose or if you're just plain stupid.



Hey nice state religion you got there.

I've seen the evidence for "serious risk" regarding Covid and I am far away from that category and closer to being complicated by the vaccine.  Nice of you to play doctor for me.  The name calling suggests you have nothing useful to offer.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Despiteful remarks are neither here or there.  If you are comfortable with your head in the sand, I am in no position to pull it out for you.
> 
> I will mention that it is incredibly selfish of you to request others to get vaccinated so that you feel safer.  It presumes your life is more valuable when your actions continually stress reevaluation.
> 
> Why should people choose you over themselves?


Look dude, you still haven’t even posted any links proving mass voter fraud, that vaccines weren’t effective/harmful/other, nor really anything else that you’ve made claims on. You go page after page pretending your claims are worth a shit and pretend being asked for a source is too much for you. You don’t understand science. If you can’t provide sources, then you don’t understand science. If you dance around the bush for 3 days when asked for a source, then you don’t understand science. If your source is just some uncredited claims and you can’t acknowledge that, then you don’t understand science. That statement was based on your actions.
As for your comments on the value of my life. No where did I say my life was more valuable than others. Asking people people to have consideration for the well-being of others isn’t putting my life above them. I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion but I am best to assume it’s just another attempt to control the conversation.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Look dude, you still haven’t even posted any links proving mass voter fraud, that vaccines weren’t effective/harmful/other, nor really anything else that you’ve made claims on. You go page after page pretending your claims are worth a shit and pretend being asked for a source is too much for you. You don’t understand science. If you can’t provide sources, then you don’t understand science. If you dance around the bush for 3 days when asked for a source, then you don’t understand science. If your source is just some uncredited claims and you can’t acknowledge that, then you don’t understand science. That statement was based on your actions.
> As for your comments on the value of my life. No where did I say my life was more valuable than others. Asking people people to have consideration for the well-being of others isn’t putting my life above them. I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion but I am best bto assume it’s just another attempt to control the conversation.



I'm not making any claims about non-presented data.  Interpretation also does not require "a source", so if you disagree with my interpretation, demanding a source is not a rebuttal.  However, as already established, when you are provided a source for something that falls outside of your accepted data set, you say that it's not worth your time and call names.  It is pointless to entertain you as being "scientific" when you and your peers easily resort to strawmen and ad hominem fallacies to suppress conversation.  At that point, you reduce yourself to just a noisy mob.

If you want to make this about potential election fraud, I do not have confidence in America's election process.  It's not an unreasonable position considering the list of presidents you've had and the history of foul-play alleged by both sides.  Are both sides are liars or both sides telling the truth.  Either way, you have a system operating on fraud.  If you dispute that both sides have dipped into these shenanigans, then I'm really not patient enough to have this conversation.

If you can't argue based on points being made as opposed to appeals to authority, then you are not someone worth answering to.

I interpret the current situation as evidence that vaccines have not been effective.  I interpret the CDC acknowledging risks in their vaccines to undermine the overzealous claim of safety.  I'm not even touching data sets that you consider "fringe" (even like VEARS--despite how ridiculous you'd have to be to protest it).  

I'm referring to data that isn't disputed.  

Asking people to get vaccinated is putting the value of your life over theirs.

Also, it goes beyond that now.

Vaccinating children for Covid is something that some would think is reasonable.  I think that's sick.


----------



## VinsCool (Jan 31, 2022)

Why yes Pfizer paid me to get 2 doses, thanks for asking.


----------



## Deleted member 568892 (Jan 31, 2022)

VinsCool said:


> Why yes Pfizer paid me to get 2 doses, thanks for asking.


You were paid by Pfizer to get it? Do you mean the Canadian government gave you a free lottery ticket for getting vaxxed and you won?


----------



## ccfman2004 (Jan 31, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The Chinese government didn't create Covid and suing them for a natural virus is stupid.
> Been a few weeks and looks like the anti-vax crowd is still posting garbage.


The virus isn't completely natural. The virus the went on the loose was genetically modified in the nearby lab (possibly for experiments for biological warfare). Also the Chinese government did nothing to contain the outbreak when it was discovered. They also bribed the W.H.O. to downplay the severity of the virus as they are against anything that makes them look bad. I don't trust anything their government says. I do know that COVID-19 was in the US back in 2019 before the doctors here knew what it was as I know somebody who his doctors are pretty sure had COVID in Dec 2019 despite no one knowing about it in the US until 2020. His COVID antibodies were off the chart in late 2020 and the only time he was seriously ill was in Dec 2019 when the doctors thought he had double pneumonia. 

I don't trust anything the media says as they lie all the time to boost ratings and to get people riled up.

I wish people would stop calling this a vaccine.  Just like Flu shot (also not a vaccine), it only tries to help boost immunity and cannot prevent you from getting it.  I know plenty of people that still got COVID despite getting the jabs. 

Also people have died after getting the COVID shot so not everybody should get it, especially if they have underlying heath issues. 

Before people starting saying I'm the problem with COVID still being around I did get my 3 shots last year along with the Flu shot. I can understand why some people are against get the shots since we don't have the whole picture and too many people have had bad reactions getting them.


----------



## mrgone (Jan 31, 2022)

ccfman2004 said:


> I wish people would stop calling this a vaccine.  Just like Flu shot (also not a vaccine), it only tries to help boost immunity and cannot prevent you from getting it.  I know plenty of people that still got COVID despite getting the jabs.


I thought so too, but i asked a biologist about it:
Aa vaccine is to prevent the bad side effects of an infection, not to prevent infection itself.

i always knew, that the vaccine just (maybe) saves me from dying, but not from infection.

That's why i stay at home most of the time.


----------



## VinsCool (Jan 31, 2022)

Mike_Hunt said:


> You were paid by Pfizer to get it? Do you mean the Canadian government gave you a free lottery ticket for getting vaxxed and you won?


Nah, I ain't getting into that stuff, I'm merely poking fun at some amusing replies I have read here.
I have no idea how the lottery stuff is supposed to work and I have no interest about it either, I got my shots out of necessity, so whatever happens to be hanging at the end of the carousel isn't my concern.
That said, good luck to whoever played the lottery, because why not make this situation a little more humorous by adding RNG into the mix!
Someday I will wake up and learn I can use a scratchcard with vaccine slots, and learn that the 10th one will be a coupon for a free pizza, and honestly I wouldn't even be surprised about it.
I will certainly take the pizza, in any case, I can never say no to a free pizza.


----------



## subcon959 (Jan 31, 2022)

VinsCool said:


> I will certainly take the pizza, in any case, I can never say no to a free pizza.


Even if it had anchovies on it?


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I've seen the evidence for "serious risk" regarding Covid and I am far away from that category and closer to being complicated by the vaccine.


Your risks associated with contracting COVID-19 are significantly higher than any risks associated with the vaccines, even if you're young and healthy. The science is clear on that, so I guess that makes you an anti-science moron.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Your risks associated with contracting COVID-19 are significantly higher than any risks associated with the vaccines, even if you're young and healthy. The science is clear on that, so I guess that makes you an anti-science moron.


"Young and healthy" aren't specific enough Dr. Lacius.  Please gtfo.


----------



## RocaBOT (Jan 31, 2022)

Okay so right now we have one that is persuaded his own biased interpretation of the facts is scientific evidence, and the ones who come troll about being paid by who-knows-what to get vaccinated or other completely broken "theories" with no facts backing them (W.H.O. being bribed? REALLY? You sure you're okay mate?)

This thread is not just a few clowns, it's the entire circus at this point


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> "Young and healthy" aren't specific enough Dr. Lacius.  Please gtfo.


I've said numerous times that if you have a real medical reason for not getting vaccinated, you shouldn't get vaccinated. That would be something tot talk to your doctor about. However, if that's not the case, then your risks are significantly higher not getting vaccinated vs. getting vaccinated, even if you're young/healthy and less likely to experience serious illness as a result of COVID-19. That was my point, and it was clear. I don't have to be a doctor to acknowledge the scientific facts.

I'm not the one who needs to "GTFO."


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I've said numerous times that if you have a real medical reason for not getting vaccinated, you shouldn't get vaccinated. That would be something tot talk to your doctor about. However, if that's not the case, then your risks are significantly higher not getting vaccinated vs. getting vaccinated, even if you're young/healthy and less likely to experience serious illness as a result of COVID-19. That was my point, and it was clear. I don't have to be a doctor to acknowledge the scientific facts.
> 
> I'm not the one who needs to "GTFO."


Please don't mistake my response to you as solicitation.  I'm fine with my current medical advocacy.  I don't care about how you rationalize it.  You aren't in a position, moral or legal, to comment on my undisclosed medical situation.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Please don't mistake my response to you as solicitation.  I'm fine with my current medical advocacy.  I don't care about how you rationalize it.  You aren't in a position, moral or legal, to comment on my undisclosed medical situation.


I am in the position to comment on the idiotic, anti-vax, and anti-science bullshit you've slung all over this thread, regardless of how desperately you want to reframe things.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I am in the position to comment on the idiotic, anti-vax, and anti-science bullshit you've slung all over this thread, regardless of how desperately you want to reframe things.


You are in the position to do anything you can, and characterize it however you want.  Telling me that my decision to not get vaccinated is "anti-science" is ignorant, immoral, and unwarranted.  I've already commented on how your application of "the science" is inconsistent, and it looks awfully familiar to those who use conflicting religious claims as a justification for their shameful actions.  If you want to address that instead of attacking the strawman, be my guest.  The fact is, multiple interpretations of a data set can exist.  Calling me anti-science because I don't have the same confidence in the vaccine as you is not "doing or preserving" science.  It's just being subversive, which in itself, is anti-science.  I would say that it is ironic, but you have a knack for being pretentious.

If you believed in half the stuff you say about yourself, you'd be doing a lot more shutting up and listening instead.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You are in the position to do anything you can, and characterize it however you want.  Telling me that my decision to not get vaccinated is "anti-science" is ignorant, immoral, and unwarranted.


There are specific statements you've said about vaccines, COVID-19, their relative risks, etc., and objectively, those statements either comport with the science or they don't. Those are the things I've said are anti-science, and I'm sorry the facts are inconvenient for you.

If I'm coming off as pretentious, it's because I'm a skeptic who accepts science, and you're behaving like an idiot for rejecting science. Also, whether or not I'm coming off as pretentious, or even if I am pretentious, is irrelevant to whether or not you're behaving like an anti-science asshole.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

Lacius said:


> There are specific statements you've said about vaccines, COVID-19, their relative risks, etc., and objectively, those statements either comport with the science or they don't. Those are the things I've said are anti-science, and I'm sorry the facts are inconvenient for you.
> 
> If I'm coming off as pretentious, it's because I'm a skeptic who accepts science, and you're behaving like an idiot for rejecting science. Also, whether or not I'm coming off as pretentious, or even if I am pretentious, is irrelevant to whether or not you're behaving like an anti-science asshole.


You are saying the things that I've said either comport with the science or they don't, and you refer to them as anti-science.

Okay.

Let's talk about those specific statements that either comport with the science or don't.

"Safe and effective" isn't the same as "Safe and effective_*,**,***_".

*yesterday more than today
**relative to an irrational variableof possibilities
***By applying "correlation is not causation" and waivers to skirt culpability


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You are saying the things that I've said either comport with the science or they don't, and you refer to them as anti-science.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> ...


Listen carefully, and you might learn something. When I say the vaccines are "safe and effective," I mean the following:

There is no significant risk of serious side effects. There's no evidence for a significant risk of serious side effects, and after hundreds of millions of vaccinations, we haven't seen any increase in any medical condition that hasn't already been associated with something else like COVID-19.
The vaccines are highly effective at reducing the spread of COVID-19.
The vaccines are highly effective at reducing the need for hospitalization due to COVID-19.
The vaccines are highly effective at reducing the odds of death by COVID-19.
These are scientific facts, and you're a fool for rejecting them. It's really as simple as that.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 31, 2022)

ccfman2004 said:


> The virus isn't completely natural. The virus the went on the loose was genetically modified in the nearby lab (possibly for experiments for biological warfare). Also the Chinese government did nothing to contain the outbreak when it was discovered. They also bribed the W.H.O. to downplay the severity of the virus as they are against anything that makes them look bad. I don't trust anything their government says. I do know that COVID-19 was in the US back in 2019 before the doctors here knew what it was as I know somebody who his doctors are pretty sure had COVID in Dec 2019 despite no one knowing about it in the US until 2020. His COVID antibodies were off the chart in late 2020 and the only time he was seriously ill was in Dec 2019 when the doctors thought he had double pneumonia.
> 
> I don't trust anything the media says as they lie all the time to boost ratings and to get people riled up.
> 
> ...


Although you gave an actually thought-out reply, I do have to ask where I could read more about the first place. Doing so quick research into it, there is evidence of a lab leak but no evidence of the virus is genetically modified. There is also evidence of government downplay, that's one of the early criticisms that is often cited when talking about how poorly handled Covid was. It's quite possible for there to have been early victims to Covid, my older sibling had come back positive for Covid antibodies back in March of last year. 
I am rather confused as to why you would say it's not a vaccine as it seems to meet the criteria needed to be a vaccine. 
There have been 9 reported deaths linked to the J&J vaccine


> CDC has also identified nine deaths that have been caused by or were directly attributed to TTS following J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccination. Women ages 30-49 years, especially, should be aware of the increased risk of this rare adverse event. There are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen.


 Source: CDC
It's worth noting that I am aware of health complications as a result of preexisting medical conduction. I am not a doctor and I always try to include the exception for those who can't be vaccinated or require additional verification before they can. I have an immune disorder and had to ask my doctor which vaccine was recommended, just to be safe. I can not stress enough that people should talk to their doctor before getting vaccinated.

I am glad you are taking care of your health and will point to the above statement on people's worries. My issue isn't people who can't get vaccinated, it's the people who spread conspiracies around vaccines and discourage others from getting vaccinated.


----------



## The Catboy (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I'm not making any claims about non-presented data.  Interpretation also does not require "a source", so if you disagree with my interpretation, demanding a source is not a rebuttal.  However, as already established, when you are provided a source for something that falls outside of your accepted data set, you say that it's not worth your time and call names.  It is pointless to entertain you as being "scientific" when you and your peers easily resort to strawmen and ad hominem fallacies to suppress conversation.  At that point, you reduce yourself to just a noisy mob.
> 
> If you want to make this about potential election fraud, I do not have confidence in America's election process.  It's not an unreasonable position considering the list of presidents you've had and the history of foul-play alleged by both sides.  Are both sides are liars or both sides telling the truth.  Either way, you have a system operating on fraud.  If you dispute that both sides have dipped into these shenanigans, then I'm really not patient enough to have this conversation.
> 
> ...


You've made countless claims and when pressed you've only deflected the requests for verification of your claims. The only times you've provided "sources" were either to conspiracy sites or sources that either misquoted or omitted details. Most of the time you act like you've provided a source and even argued as if you have.
You claimed there was mass election fraud and then credited "God" or "faith." The reason I bring this up is that you have a very long history of making claims and then arguing with absolute nonsense when pressed on your claims.
That's your interpretation but fortunately, reality doesn't line up with your interpretation.
What data are you actually referring to though? You are saying you are "referring to data" but you haven't posted any of that data, you are literally making a claim without showing what you are referring to.
I literally don't care if you feel that way about vaccines or the request for others to be vaccinated.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> You claimed there was mass election fraud and then credited "God" or "faith."


Lol.  I need a source for this.  



Lacius said:


> There is no significant risk of serious side effects. There's no evidence for a significant risk of serious side effects, and after hundreds of millions of vaccinations, we haven't seen any increase in any medical condition that hasn't already been associated with something else like COVID-19.



Loaded.



Lacius said:


> The vaccines are highly effective at reducing the spread of COVID-19.



Reducing?  Delaying or mutating?


The other two points you get maybes on.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Loaded.


You're wrong.



tabzer said:


> Reducing?  Delaying or mutating?


Reducing.



tabzer said:


> The other two points you get maybes on.


They're verifiable scientific facts, you moron.


----------



## tabzer (Jan 31, 2022)

I have no way of verifying your capacity to qualify evidence or that your faith in your institutions is merited, so I remain skeptical.


----------



## Chary (Jan 31, 2022)

Captains Log, Day 8,296: my parents still think I am anti vax along with them. They don't suspect a thing.

Joking aside, my father still hasn't been cleared to get the vaccine yet. I worry for him, since he's incredibly high risk. Can't wait for a covert op pharmacy run when his doctor says he can get his first shot.


----------



## sley (Jan 31, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I have no way of verifying your capacity to qualify evidence or that your faith in your institutions is merited, so I remain skeptical.


You guys have been discussing for 2 weeks now, and after this reply i'm pretty sure that this isn't going anywhere meaningful. 
How can a simple question like "Is the vaccine safe" be this blown out of proportion.


----------



## NewGBAXL (Jan 31, 2022)

because people make a big deal about other people's decisions
if you don't think it works, don't criticize people who do
if you think it works, act like it. stop worrying that anti-vaxxers will pass it to you


sley said:


> You guys have been discussing for 2 weeks now, and after this reply i'm pretty sure that this isn't going anywhere meaningful.
> How can a simple question like "Is the vaccine safe" be this blown out of proportion.


----------



## Lacius (Jan 31, 2022)

sley said:


> You guys have been discussing for 2 weeks now, and after this reply i'm pretty sure that this isn't going anywhere meaningful.
> How can a simple question like "Is the vaccine safe" be this blown out of proportion.


I've made it clear that I don't expect anyone will be able to say anything that will change @tabzer's mind. He overtly doesn't care about the science or the facts, and that means all of his posts are in bad-faith (not to mention foolish).

My replies to his posts are for other people.



tabzer said:


> I have no way of verifying your capacity to qualify evidence or that your faith in your institutions is merited, so I remain skeptical.


If you're going to arbitrarily reject scientific evidence you don't like, I guess that means you don't need to eat healthy or exercise either. Eat up, little piggy. 



NewGBAXL said:


> because people make a big deal about other people's decisions
> if you don't think it works, don't criticize people who do
> if you think it works, act like it. stop worrying that anti-vaxxers will pass it to you


Irresponsibly spreading vaccine misinformation demonstrably leads to an increased spread of disease and death, not to mention the increased likelihood that new variants will emerge.

The vaccines also aren't 100% effective. The more the virus is allowed to spread, the more likely it is those who are vaccinated will contract the disease despite doing everything right.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 1, 2022)

sley said:


> You guys have been discussing for 2 weeks now, and after this reply i'm pretty sure that this isn't going anywhere meaningful.
> How can a simple question like "Is the vaccine safe" be this blown out of proportion.


It's more like 2 years with that guy. He has a long history of posting conspiracies, getting asked for sources, and dragging things out for literally hundreds of pages and across multiple threads. The only reason most of us reply is to make sure his conspiracy nonsense is kept in check. There's also hope that people on the fence will see posts like his and realize how irrational his beliefs really are. Hopefully start asking, "why does someone need to drag out a thread for this long without posting a single link?" then realize that the answer is pretty simple, his posts have no sources, no evidence, and the movements he represents are just as equally vapid.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 1, 2022)

Lacius said:


> If you're going to arbitrarily reject scientific evidence you don't like



I'm not arbitrarily rejecting scientific evidence that I don't like.  I question the totality of the data presented and the meaning behind the disparity in consensus.  Statements made, intended to be interpreted as absolute, while riddled with qualifiers.  Attempts to shutdown dissent instead of prying into the meaning behind leaks.  Silencing doctors because they disagree.  Some of you people shout "anti-science" as the 20th century's version of "blasphemy!"  It's not like America prioritizes science over corporate interest.  Corporations and government funding fund most scientific studies.  What happens when they are in bed with each other?  It's not a theory that government actors are lobbied by pharmaceutical giants.  I find that rejecting VEARS data is an example of rejecting evidence because you don't like the implication.

Questioning your methods and doubting integrity based on patterns of institutional failure and corporate monopolization is not "anti-science".


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 1, 2022)

You say you doubt everything, yet you have *very strong* opinions about "facts" and claims you have no data to back. Like, come on, you can't say that you're doing science when you reject everything that the method does, including having at the very least a small amount of faith in the data, especially when it comes from many independent sources.

And you've been diverting the subject times and times again. Whenever we ask for data or sources backing your claims, you divert the discussion to some random nonsense. Be it government conspiracies (which may exist, but it's not the fucking subject for god's sake), religion or whatever else fancies your heart at the time. It's not serious. It's not even making any sense.
You even twist what is being said. When Lacius says your *claims* are wrong, you twist it into saying he said your *decisions* are wrong. But he did not say your decision is wrong. You do you, if you cannot get vaccinated, or if you decide not to for whatever reason, we do not care. But we *do* care that you are spreading lies and such about the vaccines here without anything to back your words. It's people like you and words like yours that get people who are vulnerable and in lack of trust for healthcare to put themselves in danger by not getting vaccinated, and those words are indirectly responsible for the deaths of some of those people.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 1, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> You say you doubt everything, yet you have *very strong* opinions about "facts" and claims you have no data to back. Like, come on, you can't say that you're doing science when you reject everything that the method does, including having at the very least a small amount of faith in the data, especially when it comes from many independent sources.
> 
> And you've been diverting the subject times and times again. Whenever we ask for data or sources backing your claims, you divert the discussion to some random nonsense. Be it government conspiracies (which may exist, but it's not the fucking subject for god's sake), religion or whatever else fancies your heart at the time. It's not serious. It's not even making any sense.
> You even twist what is being said. When Lacius says your *claims* are wrong, you twist it into saying he said your *decisions* are wrong. But he did not say your decision is wrong. You do you, if you cannot get vaccinated, or if you decide not to for whatever reason, we do not care. But we *do* care that you are spreading lies and such about the vaccines here without anything to back your words. It's people like you and words like yours that get people who are vulnerable and in lack of trust for healthcare to put themselves in danger by not getting vaccinated, and those words are indirectly responsible for the deaths of some of those people.


I don't doubt everything and I don't say that I do.  Whenever thecatboy asks for a source it's to deflect from thinking critically about something.  AFAIK, it's not about data sets that have been rejected by anyone here, just the ways it's interpreted to give the benefit of the doubt to one party over another.  That person asks for a source in response to written out point, acknowledging nothing about what is there.  It's disingenuous and entitled.  If they asked about a source about something specific, then that's fine.  If they are asking for a source because they are not sure if it is okay to think like I am thinking, then they can be ignored. 

I don't know what you mean about Lacius.  Do you have an example?  Claiming someone is anti-science for not getting vaccinated is out of touch.  Claiming someone is increasing their odds of dying by not getting vaccinated is offensive to reason.

I appreciate your attempt to characterize me because it seems like you are trying to get to know me, but it's a little disgraceful--like trying to get to know a new house by bumping around in complete darkness.  Except you can see, so I don't know why you are still bumping around.  At that point it's just patronizing. 

I haven't lied to you or anyone else.  Nobody should be convinced by anything I said, or what Lacius says to do something (or not do something).  Nobody from here is going to be there to hold their hand when they have to deal the consequences of their actions.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 1, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I'm not arbitrarily rejecting scientific evidence that I don't like.


Yeah you are.



tabzer said:


> I question the totality of the data presented and the meaning behind the disparity in consensus.


There's an overwhelming consensus in the scientific and medical communities. Fake news. Try again.



tabzer said:


> Statements made, intended to be interpreted as absolute, while riddled with qualifiers.


Welcome to science. Sorry the world is more nuanced and complicated than you'd like.



tabzer said:


> Attempts to shutdown dissent


Feel free to question anything and everything, but if you're just making up unsubstantiated conspiratorial garbage, then that's all that is, and it's irresponsible.



tabzer said:


> Silencing doctors because they disagree.


If a doctor irresponsibly says something antithetical to medical science, something that can cause very real harm, they shouldn't be listened to, and they shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine.



tabzer said:


> Some of you people shout "anti-science" as the 20th century's version of "blasphemy!"


The difference is we should care about science, not whether or not we've offended some imaginary deity in the sky.



tabzer said:


> It's not like America prioritizes science over corporate interest.


It should prioritize science, and regardless, it isn't like both can't exist at the same time. The science is clear and good about vaccines in the same way it's clear and good about computer technology. That doesn't mean nobody is going to try to profit off it.



tabzer said:


> Corporations and government funding fund most scientific studies.


And sometimes they don't.



tabzer said:


> What happens when they are in bed with each other?


If your answer is something nefarious in this or any other situation, you have to defend that. What motive would the government even have for helping to put out a vaccine that doesn't work? If the vaccine didn't work, we'd have a stifled economy. The government also spends money on things that are in the public interest. What's the motive for pharmaceutical companies selling a vaccine that doesn't work? If it doesn't work, they make significantly less money, and their reputation gets flushed down the toilet.

Even if you could ascribe motives, you'd also need to demonstrate this conspiracy theory. Until then, that's all it is, and I haven't even addressed the independent science corroborating vaccine safety and efficacy or the fact that it would have to be a massively global conspiracy given all of the independent science institutions and governments that would have to be in on it.

You might as well be trying to argue the conspiracy theory that the 2020 election was stolen or likely stolen from Trump (oh wait).



tabzer said:


> What happens when they are in bed with each other?  It's not a theory that government actors are lobbied by pharmaceutical giants.


Who specifically are the government actors? Are they elected or unelected? What specifically did they do? Do you have evidence?

You don't appear to have thought out your own conspiracy theory, and even if you had, baseless conspiracy theories are not a reasonable justification for rejection well-established scientific evidence.



tabzer said:


> I find that rejecting VEARS data is an example of rejecting evidence because you don't like the implication.


Well, it would be moronic to think this, since the VEARS data isn't "rejected" outright; it's investigated before being rejected. We've discovered vaccine side effects from VEARS data in the past, and it's a very useful tool. The problem with VEARS is anyone can report anything, and correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation. It's not great just on its own.

The issue that you seem to have is that you don't realize the VEARS data involving whatever fake side effects you believe exist or are likely to exist was investigated, and they don't actually exist. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data," and you need more than anecdotes of alleged correlation to have anything meaningful.

Listen up, because I think you're going to learn something with this analogy. Let's pretend I ate an oatmeal cookie and then suffered a brain aneurysm. If that got reported to the Cookie Adverse Event Reporting System (CAERS), it would then be investigated. If the data showed that the proportion of people eating oatmeal cookies and then suffering brain aneurysms matches the proportion of people who didn't eat oatmeal cookies but suffered brain aneurysms, and the proportion of brain aneurysms is undercharged since the recent (and very public) release of oatmeal cookies, the claim that oatmeal cookies causes brain aneurysms can and should be rejected.

You're basically saying right now that oatmeal cookies cause, or are likely to cause, brain aneurysms. The VAERS anecdotes that didn't pan out were rejected because they were unsupported by scientific evidence, not because people "didn't like what it was saying." There are plenty of true things about COVID-19 or even the vaccines that we don't like, but we haven't rejected them because we don't like them.



tabzer said:


> Questioning your methods... is not "anti-science".


It is when those methods are called "the scientific method."


----------



## AsPika2219 (Feb 1, 2022)

Look likes Malaysia get ready for 4th doses vaccine to fight Omicron....


----------



## Lacius (Feb 1, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I don't doubt everything and I don't say that I do.


Right. Some things you don't doubt or question:
"THE VACCINES ARE DANGEROUS, MORE DANGEROUS FOR ME THAN COVID"
"TRUMP WON THE ELECTION"



tabzer said:


> Whenever thecatboy asks for a source it's to deflect from thinking critically about something.


"Critical thinking is the analysis of available facts, evidence, observations, and arguments to form a judgment," you numbskull. You're being laughably ridiculous, and you're the only one who doesn't realize it. It must be nice to not feel embarrassment or shame.



tabzer said:


> Claiming someone is anti-science for not getting vaccinated is out of touch.


What I said was it's anti-science to reject what the science says about vaccines.



tabzer said:


> Claiming someone is increasing their odds of dying by not getting vaccinated is offensive to reason.


It's a scientific fact that unvaccinated people, on average, are significantly more likely to die of COVID-19 than vaccinated people. Getting vaccinated verifiably increases one's chances of survival.

Get your head out of your ass.

Edit (not directed at tabzer or anyone else): I don't know if it was posted already, but potential organ transplant recipients are being rejected if they are unvaccinated. I think this is terrible and tragic, and I wish it didn't have to be like this, but given the shortage of organs, I agree with the policy.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...vaccination-denied-heart-transplant-rcna13724


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 1, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I don't doubt everything and I don't say that I do.  Whenever thecatboy asks for a source it's to deflect from thinking critically about something.  AFAIK, it's not about data sets that have been rejected by anyone here, just the ways it's interpreted to give the benefit of the doubt to one party over another.  That person asks for a source in response to written out point, acknowledging nothing about what is there.  It's disingenuous and entitled.  If they asked about a source about something specific, then that's fine.  If they are asking for a source because they are not sure if it is okay to think like I am thinking, then they can be ignored.
> 
> I don't know what you mean about Lacius.  Do you have an example?  Claiming someone is anti-science for not getting vaccinated is out of touch.  Claiming someone is increasing their odds of dying by not getting vaccinated is offensive to reason.
> 
> ...


being able to provide sources with data that back up your claims is science 101 tabzer. You'd be well advised to remember that next time you try to make your opinions pass for science.
And yes, you are the one to divert the debate each and every time we try to have a serious exchange with you. You're the one making it impossible to see proper data because you're literally drowning this thread in false claims that are backed up by nothing expect your own ideation of the world around you and your beliefs that everyone is evil and trying to be bad to each other.
I do not deny that some people are, but if you believe by principle that everyone is, you cannot do anything realistically, since you cannot believe anything anyone says. And that's exactly the kind of attitude that stems from your posts here.
Like that for example:


tabzer said:


> I question the totality of the data presented and the meaning behind the disparity in consensus.


Point made, have a wonderful continuation of your fantasy sweetie, I'm out for the day, I have more interesting things to do than to be distracted and have the subject deviated again by some random guy whose only addition to this thread is more and more deviation from the topic to bury facts in millions of false claims and non-related things


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 1, 2022)

NewGBAXL said:


> because people make a big deal about other people's decisions
> if you don't think it works, don't criticize people who do
> if you think it works, act like it. stop worrying that anti-vaxxers will pass it to you


It's not as simple as that though as both sides believe the other side's choice directly affects them.

From the outside, it all seems like a distraction tactic. I'm betting on an imminent alien invasion.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Feb 1, 2022)

Annoying....really...

Now that the mandatory Vaccination in Autria is almost "through"....
Surprisingly Novavax has "Production Issues" and Valneva still not got their EMA Permission....
That means,the Protein and the Inactivated Serum comes in April at earliest...

Very annoying.....



But thanks to our great and trustful Doctors we "forget" the Chance of "Testing for Vaccination Ability".
This Option is expressly recommended by every Vaccine Manufacturer before the Vaccination and is included in every Information Sheet from every Covid Vaccine !
Apparently no Doctor points this out - of course due to lack of time (and "maybe" threat of punishment from our Medical Association President Mister Thomas Sekeres to the practicing doctors!) Very trusting !

Only really honest and trustful Doctors (strange,it seems we actually have only a Handful of them in Austria)  inform the Patients about it BEFORE they "chasing the Serum into the Body and collecting 28 Euros per vaccination....".


----------



## tabzer (Feb 1, 2022)

Lacius said:


> There's an overwhelming consensus in the scientific and medical communities.



I agree that you can say that.  But I was talking about the disparity of consensus.  The "scientific community" isn't a corporation.  For example, you've rejected Israel's "science" for some reason.



Lacius said:


> conspiracy theory



AFAIK lobbying is not a crime in the US and pharmaceutical companies do sponsor your politicians' campaigns and help them win positions of power.  Sorry, that sucks, and should probably be illegal.  Calling it a conspiracy theory shows you are out of touch.



Lacius said:


> It's a scientific fact that unvaccinated people, on average, are significantly more likely to die of COVID-19 than vaccinated people. Getting vaccinated verifiably increases one's chances of survival.



And it's not the same as saying "not getting vaccinated increases your odds of dying".  




RocaBOT said:


> being able to provide sources with data that back up your claims is science 101 tabzer. You'd be well advised to remember that next time you try to make your opinions pass for science.



Again, I asked you to make a specific reference to what you are talking about and you have not.



Lacius said:


> What I said was it's anti-science to reject what the science says about vaccines.



You said it directly in response to my claim to health.



Lacius said:


> "THE VACCINES ARE DANGEROUS, MORE DANGEROUS FOR ME THAN COVID"



Oh, look, you did it again.  Wait.  This message came before...



Lacius said:


> "TRUMP WON THE ELECTION"



If you are going to quote me, then quote me.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 1, 2022)

tabzer said:


> But I was talking about the disparity of consensus.


There's a broad consensus that vaccines are safe and effective.



tabzer said:


> For example, you've rejected Israel's "science" for some reason.


Did I?



tabzer said:


> AFAIK lobbying is not a crime in the US and pharmaceutical companies do sponsor your politicians' campaigns and help them win positions of power.  Sorry, that sucks, and should probably be illegal.  Calling it a conspiracy theory shows you are out of touch.


I didn't say lobbying doesn't exist. Reread my post.



tabzer said:


> And it's not the same as saying "not getting vaccinated increases your odds of dying".


Not getting vaccinated increases your odds of dying.



tabzer said:


> You said it directly in response to my claim to health.


Nothing I said was untrue.



tabzer said:


> If you are going to quote me, then quote me.


You've said numerous times that the election was "probably" rigged and that you actively believe it was rigged.

You are a conspiracy theorist. Per your standards for belief, you should also believe there's a cure for cancer, but pharmaceutical companies use the kinds of treatments that are more profitable instead. You should believe there's an HIV/AIDS cure, but the current drug cocktail that lasts one's whole life is more profitable. Fuck off.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Not getting vaccinated increases your odds of dying.



Where were those odds before not "not getting vaccinated"?  Where does the increase happen?


----------



## Lacius (Feb 2, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Where were those odds before not "not getting vaccinated"?  Where does the increase happen?


The choice to not get vaccinated significantly increases your odds of dying, just like the choice to not wear a seatbelt significant increases your odds of dying. You know what this means, and nobody is interested in your little semantic games.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The choice to not get vaccinated significantly increases your odds of dying, just like the choice to not wear a seatbelt significant increases your odds of dying. You know what this means, and nobody is interested in your little semantic games.


Being not vaccinated is a natural state.  Proposing that it's not with "little semantics" is a shitty propaganda technique.  Pretending you are above it when employing it, and then reinforcing it shows you are lying.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 2, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Being not vaccinated is a natural state.


I didn't say it wasn't, and it's wholly irrelevant to whether or not you're more likely to die than your vaccinated counterparts.

You're not even trying. Is there a language barrier issue going on here that I'm unaware of?


----------



## tabzer (Feb 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I didn't say it wasn't, and it's wholly irrelevant to whether or not you're more likely to die than your vaccinated counterparts.
> 
> You're not even trying. Is there a language barrier issue going on here that I'm unaware of?


You are either stupid or lying.  I doubt you are _that_ stupid.

If you are going to lie, what's the point of trying to reason with you.

Btw, this you?


----------



## City (Feb 2, 2022)

I got vaxxed, though I did wait a couple of months first.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 2, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You are either stupid or lying.  I doubt you are _that_ stupid.
> 
> If you are going to lie, what's the point of trying to reason with you.
> 
> Btw, this you?


You're many times more likely to die of COVID-19 if you are unvaccinated, and this is a verifiable scientific fact. I'm not the stupid one.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 2, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Again, I asked you to make a specific reference to what you are talking about and you have not.





tabzer said:


> Interpretation also does not require "a source", so if you disagree with my interpretation, demanding a source is not a rebuttal.





tabzer said:


> I interpret the current situation as evidence that vaccines have not been effective. I interpret the CDC acknowledging risks in their vaccines to undermine the overzealous claim of safety.





tabzer said:


> I question the totality of the data presented and the meaning behind the disparity in consensus.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 2, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


>


So what's the problem? 


Lacius said:


> You're many times more likely to die of COVID-19 if you are unvaccinated, and this is a verifiable scientific fact


In order to verify it you'd have to count how many times I've died while unvaccinated, and compare it to how many times I've died while vaccinated. 

Using the law of averages, you are injuring "my" odds to balloon your claim by including those who are susceptible, who create the weight of the claim.  You are lying to me by using statistics as a tool to mask the facts that are relevant to me (and we both know it).

I can sell you my shoes.  If you care about not dying, you should buy them.  It is a verifiable scientific fact that you are many times more likely to die if you are not wearing my shoes.  They are priceless.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 2, 2022)

tabzer said:


> In order to verify it you'd have to count how many times I've died while unvaccinated, and compare it to how many times I've died while vaccinated.


That isn't even close to true.



tabzer said:


> Using the law of averages, you are injuring "my" odds to balloon your claim by including those who are susceptible, who create the weight of the claim.


As I've said numerous times in the posts you've ignored, we can exclude everyone except the young and healthy, and what I said about vaccines remains true.



tabzer said:


> If you care about not dying, you should buy them.  It is a verifiable scientific fact that you are many times more likely to die if you are not wearing my shoes.  They are priceless.


The COVID-19 vaccine has been demonstrated to significantly increase one's odds of survival; buying your shoes has not.

What fucking even was this post? Lol.


----------



## KingVamp (Feb 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The COVID-19 vaccine has been demonstrated to significantly increase one's odds of survival; buying your shoes has not.
> 
> What fucking even was this post? Lol.


Even then, got to prove why his shoes are better for protection than other shoes.


----------



## RyDog (Feb 2, 2022)

I've received my 2 doses including the booster and I can say from my personal experience, the vaccine works. My unvaccinated brother that lives with me contracted the virus last month and ended up getting everyone in my house sick besides my mom and I. My mom and I are fully vaccinated and my other family members only had 2 of their shots besides my brother whom initially contracted it. My dad ended up getting really sick and is still recovering but I think this is pretty concrete evidence that the vaccine works if you're boosted. My mom and I never had any symptoms and after 5 days from exposure, still got a negative test. I got vaccinated fairly quickly and before the delta/omicron variant, I started living my life normally... going out without a mask, washing hands less frequently, I even forgot that COVID existed at some points and never contracted it either. 

My brother's argument, and I'm sure many others have this same belief is that the vaccine was made for money. Robert Malone, the original inventor of the mRNA vaccine stated in a Joe Rogan podcast  that young adults should not take the vaccine and goes on spreading "misinformation" about the virus. All of the misinformation that he is spreading has been debunked yet my brother thinks the debunking is fake news. I can't really find any information that backs up Dr. Malone's claim so it's really hard to see his point. My brother (and Dr. Malone) believe that this is some corrupt way for the pharmaceutical companies to make $$$. He believes that doctors are in on it, any hospital, pharmacy, anyone in the healthcare related field is just part of the system that is "brain washed" into thinking that the vaccine is safe and effective because they get paid to tell their patients that. Now censorship is a real problem with modern technology and how easy it is for companies like Google, Microsoft, Twitter to filter out content that is displayed on the web. Twitter bans you if you spread COVID "misinformation", therefore that '_information_' is censored. These claims are interesting but they're not backed up and every other source debunks it so his claims are not credible.

I honestly cannot find anyone with proper credentials, (scientists, doctors, phD students, etc.) that actually proves that the vaccine is dangerous with data and facts. Malone is a credible source since he created the mRNA vaccine but he doesn't have any facts to back up his claims. Maybe I'll change my mind if someone in this thread can help back up those claims.

America is corrupt, sure and I believe our healthcare system is very corrupt but this is a *worldwide *pandemic. This shouldn't be left vs right; you're a Trump supporter if you're against the vaccine or you're a libtard if you're for the vaccine. This is just simply denying science that can be researched. Go to any doctor or healthcare professional anywhere in the world and they'll give you their best professional advice on the vaccine. There is plenty of information readily available about these vaccines online from credible sources. Why would the CDC and WHO recommend to get it if it was really that dangerous... The CDC and WHO were founded to protect the general public, not go against it...

There are also claims that the vaccine is dangerous and deadly... if that was true then why aren't people dropping like flies? My state has a 79% vaccination rate, how come those people haven't died yet? The FDA published the list of ingredients that are contained in each of the vaccinations, all available to the public and anyone can do their own research on whether or not any of these ingredients are dangerous. The side effects are just your immune systems' response to the vaccine as it is basically training your immune system to fight a safe version of the virus. The only side effect I really noticed was a slight headache that went away after a couple days and I really don't know anyone who's had a severe reaction to the vaccine or died.

I'm open to hear anyone's personal experience with the vaccine. Whether anyone has actually had a severe reaction to the vaccine or knows someone who has died from it because all of this "misinformation" is really making it hard to see both sides. I feel that my personal experience is pretty concrete evidence that the vaccine works, is safe and effective since I had a group in my house that was unvaccinated, group that had 2 doses and the group that had the booster, and we all had different outcomes. But I wouldn't want to go through what my dad had to go through last month or I wouldn't want to put anyone else in that position. Would you?


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 2, 2022)

@RyDog I haven't been keeping up with the pandemic stuff as much lately, but are people really saying the vaccine is "deadly"? I don't think the adverse reactions are prevalent enough for anyone to draw such an extreme conclusion. The culture war going on in America is probably to blame for a lot of it, but there have been reasons in the past to be sceptical of vaccines so some of the hesitancy isn't without merit. Look up what happened with polio vaccines in Africa for example. Most of your other points have been discussed to death in the various threads here if you want to take a look.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Feb 3, 2022)

Here in Austria (as I predicted last year) the first "cautious" findings are being made with regard to "contagion". As with influenza....
It is already being said that in a few weeks the whole spook will be over..... and mandatory Vaccinations will "maybe" no longer be necessary for EVERYONE.(Depends on how long the "Mandatory Vaccination Law" will work...)



Spoiler: By the Way...



I've had Covid since Monday (PCR Test made Omicron last variant - CT value 24)




and I'm in Quarantine (no Symptomes,only a little "tired"..) until (longest) February 11th (except the official Test on Monday,February 7th is positive again,otherwise I am "Free Tested")



Thank God and my intact Immunesystem,for me,the Covid Madness is finally over and I can get finally to a normal Life for the next 6 Months - without Vaccination.




Stay well and stay positive to Life.


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 3, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> @RyDog I haven't been keeping up with the pandemic stuff as much lately, but are people really saying the vaccine is "deadly"? I don't think the adverse reactions are prevalent enough for anyone to draw such an extreme conclusion. The culture war going on in America is probably to blame for a lot of it, but there have been reasons in the past to be sceptical of vaccines so some of the hesitancy isn't without merit. Look up what happened with polio vaccines in Africa for example. Most of your other points have been discussed to death in the various threads here if you want to take a look.


The situation with polio in Africa is quite a bit different. The oral vaccine (OPV) used there contains a live sample of the polio virus. This kind of vaccine is called an “attenuated vaccine” - the virus sample administered via OPV has been severely weakened, to the point where it shouldn’t cause the disease (only about 3 cases per million), but it is still very much active. In most cases this doesn’t lead to the development of polio, however in rare cases (manufacturing defect, particularly weak immune system etc.) it can end up infecting the patient. OPV has been phased out in most countries for this reason, replaced with IPV (which is completely inactive), however the unique circumstances concerning distribution in Africa such as the harsh environment or the lack of trained personnel make it one of the only viable options there. The COVID vaccine contains no virus whatsoever - it contains an mRNA instruction for your body to build COVID’s spike proteins upon injection. You physically can’t catch COVID from a COVID shot, you can catch polio from the oral polio vaccine. One contains a complete, living sample of a virus, one does not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 3, 2022)

"I want you to cite me if you say I said things" - tabzer, 2022
*cites said things to prove point of tabzer passing his own opinion for factual data*
"What's the problem?" - Also tabzer, 2022

Don't ask me to prove you said what you said if you're just going to try and divert it again with a "question" that doesn't need to be there. You're literally wasting everyone's time.


----------



## RandomUser (Feb 3, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> @RyDog I haven't been keeping up with the pandemic stuff as much lately, but are people really saying the vaccine is "deadly"? I don't think the adverse reactions are prevalent enough for anyone to draw such an extreme conclusion. The culture war going on in America is probably to blame for a lot of it, but there have been reasons in the past to be sceptical of vaccines so some of the hesitancy isn't without merit. Look up what happened with polio vaccines in Africa for example. Most of your other points have been discussed to death in the various threads here if you want to take a look.


This reminded me of the Tuskegee syphilis study, although it wasn't about vaccine.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 3, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> "I want you to cite me if you say I said things" - tabzer, 2022
> *cites said things to prove point of tabzer passing his own opinion for factual data*
> "What's the problem?" - Also tabzer, 2022
> 
> Don't ask me to prove you said what you said if you're just going to try and divert it again with a "question" that doesn't need to be there. You're literally wasting everyone's time.



You are wasting your own time.  What do you want a source for?  Do you find my disagreement with the world being "'better than ever' since the conception of covid vaccine" to be false or controversial?  Just quoting me saying my opinion and statements about how I look at things doesn't tell me anything about what you want.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 3, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> The situation with polio in Africa is quite a bit different. The oral vaccine (OPV) used there contains a live sample of the polio virus. This kind of vaccine is called an “attenuated vaccine” - the virus sample administered via OPV has been severely weakened, to the point where it shouldn’t cause the disease (only about 3 cases per million), but it is still very much active. In most cases this doesn’t lead to the development of polio, however in rare cases (manufacturing defect, particularly weak immune system etc.) it can end up infecting the patient. OPV has been phased out in most countries for this reason, replaced with IPV (which is completely inactive), however the unique circumstances concerning distribution in Africa such as the harsh environment or the lack of trained personnel make it one of the only viable options there. The COVID vaccine contains no virus whatsoever - it contains an mRNA instruction for your body to build COVID’s spike proteins upon injection. You physically can’t catch COVID from a COVID shot, you can catch polio from the oral polio vaccine. One contains a complete, living sample of a virus, one does not.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine



Yes but the type of people that end up becoming hesitant from that probably aren't going to look into it much further than the headline or opening paragraph, let alone research the different types of vaccines. 

I'm sure the genuine hesitancy is only a small subset anyway, as I said the anti-vax thing seems to be largely political/cultural.


----------



## Dakitten (Feb 3, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You are wasting your own time.  What do you want a source for?  Do you find my disagreement with the world being "'better than ever' since the conception of covid vaccine" to be false or controversial?  Just quoting me saying my opinion and statements about how I look at things doesn't tell me anything about what you want.


People want a source for why you seem to believe you know the vaccine is bad, but they don't understand trolling I guess. Even roadkill would have budged by now, but stupid and crazy are lifestyle choices nowadays...


----------



## tabzer (Feb 3, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> People want a source for why you seem to believe you know the vaccine is bad, but they don't understand trolling I guess. Even roadkill would have budged by now, but stupid and crazy are lifestyle choices nowadays...


I'm not saying the vaccine is %100 bad. I'm saying that the the push for others to take it is reckless and overzealous.  Claims that the vaccine related injuries "cannot be substantiated" instead of "conclusively not" is a way to give vaccines the benefit of the doubt when I don't owe it any.  Considering with what is known about my current situation, I like my choice.

Also, it's been highly ineffective in ending Covid and with fulfilling political promises to end covid related restrictions.  Goal-post shifting technology.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 3, 2022)

Alexander1970 said:


> Spoiler: By the Way...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good luck mate! My son now has several friends in his class test positive so it's only a matter of time for us (since they no longer make the whole class quarantine).


----------



## Dakitten (Feb 3, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I'm not saying the vaccine is %100 bad. I'm saying that the the push for others to take it is reckless and overzealous.  Claims that the vaccine related injuries "cannot be substantiated" instead of "conclusively not" is a way to give vaccines the benefit of the doubt when I don't owe it any.  Considering with what is known about my current situation, I like my choice.
> 
> Also, it's been highly ineffective in ending Covid and with fulfilling political promises to end covid related restrictions.  Goal-post shifting technology.


See, here we go. VAERS is cute and all, but it is only a superficial data gathering source. If you want to follow the monies, the Conutermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) actually tracks vaccine complications that result in compensation. That being said, not a lot of cash cash cash coming out of there, so... Sorry, what is known about your current situation, again? What sources convinced you that vaccines are a bad idea? Most restrictions are sadly quite dead, so political promises have already been made and failed, no points there... 

You seem like a dog barking at the dark, comrade. You know bad things exist, that corruption exists, but all you see is the scenario you want to see in your head. Yes, the vaccine isn't a cure, and it can't stop Covid on its own. Yes, some people in VERY rare circumstances can get injured by it. Yes, a certain political party has tied itself to the disease as a platform topic (since there isn't anything else to float off in right field) and there is a lot of pharma money in politics, but none of this actually applies to the simple reality of how to best handle resisting Covid. Herd Immunity might not be completely viable due to variations, but the more people get vaccinated, the harder it is to spread and continue to change. It doesn't really cost anything outside of your tax dollars in bigger countries, and you absolutely can get it twice and die from it so even if you've caught it before, vaccinating yourself is still the way to go. These are called facts, they've been repeated, verified, checked, repeated, verified, checked, and thrown your way for months now. If you've got something meaningful to counter with, cool, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Feb 3, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> If you've got something meaningful to counter with, cool, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


And that's the sad thing. They actually don't have such evidence to back up their claims. They'll instead just double down on the conspiracy theories thinking it's some "AHA!" or "Gotcha!" moment. Thinking that posting news and videos from already well known conspiratorial sites (like banned.videos and all that) to try and "prove". It's a cycle of delusion for them. If it doesn't fit their views or agenda, they will just go back to harping about the same thing, but reword it differently. Or just completely ignore actual facts and data and double down on the conspiracies.

At this point, you're basically talking to a brick wall.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 3, 2022)

"You're wasting your own time"
I'm not the one drowning the thread in false claims and diversions for almost 200 pages now


----------



## tabzer (Feb 3, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> See, here we go. VAERS is cute and all, but it is only a superficial data gathering source. If you want to follow the monies, the Conutermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) actually tracks vaccine complications that result in compensation. That being said, not a lot of cash cash cash coming out of there, so... Sorry, what is known about your current situation, again? What sources convinced you that vaccines are a bad idea? Most restrictions are sadly quite dead, so political promises have already been made and failed, no points there...
> 
> You seem like a dog barking at the dark, comrade. You know bad things exist, that corruption exists, but all you see is the scenario you want to see in your head. Yes, the vaccine isn't a cure, and it can't stop Covid on its own. Yes, some people in VERY rare circumstances can get injured by it. Yes, a certain political party has tied itself to the disease as a platform topic (since there isn't anything else to float off in right field) and there is a lot of pharma money in politics, but none of this actually applies to the simple reality of how to best handle resisting Covid. Herd Immunity might not be completely viable due to variations, but the more people get vaccinated, the harder it is to spread and continue to change. It doesn't really cost anything outside of your tax dollars in bigger countries, and you absolutely can get it twice and die from it so even if you've caught it before, vaccinating yourself is still the way to go. These are called facts, they've been repeated, verified, checked, repeated, verified, checked, and thrown your way for months now. If you've got something meaningful to counter with, cool, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


The claims that vaccines are safe merits that cases like these are conclusive:

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20211119/p2a/00m/0na/042000c

It's always been that way too.  Like with claims of vaccines contributing to autism, the HPV vaccine which caused Japan to become reluctant about vaccine related promises.  "Correlation does not imply causation." There is a whole list on the CDC's website of vaccines which had issues, but they were able to deflect liability from manufacturers with this one simple trick.  There was always a divide about this topic and it won't go away until the autism, these deaths, and other correlations do have conclusive cause.  Until then, it could be the vaccine, it could be not the vaccine.  The proposition that the vaccine is going to save the world if everybody takes them seems more like a declaration of war than a genuine attempt to fix anything. 

Here's a fact check about the claim that those without a booster after 3 months suffer levels of immunity strength less than being unvaccinated.  The reality appears that it was that the vaccinated were spreading the variant at much faster levels, possibly due to the belief that they were protected.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-immunesystem-covid19-vaccines-idUSL1N2TE17B

The idea of throwing more vaccine at new variants doesn't seem sustainable:

https://www.voanews.com/a/eu-drug-r...t-overuse-of-covid-booster-shots/6395174.html

Anyway, if Lacius considers himself "healthy" even when he claims to get Covid 3x AND 3x vaccine doses, I'm not wholly moved by his attempt to paint grim pictures.  I think you maybe contributing to more placebo related injury for those who live by your measure and application of statistics.


----------



## Mexicangamer (Feb 3, 2022)

So I read a few pages of this topic and it was noticeable the lack of information and the feeling of citizenship of those who have not yet taken the vaccine. First of all, all vaccines ever made were tested by all health entities in the world before they were made available to us, secondly if you don't take them you are putting other lives at risk and overloading hospitals because you will have a more likely to develop severe cases compared to those who are already vaccinated


----------



## Glyptofane (Feb 3, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The claims that vaccines are safe merits that cases like these are conclusive:
> 
> https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20211119/p2a/00m/0na/042000c
> 
> ...


Nobody anywhere is liable for any of these COVID vaccines. That alone should be a good enough reason for anyone to reject them. 

No person who is serious about health is going to repeatedly inject themselves with a bunch of "medicine" they don't need. The available data begins to suggest they've all given themselves subclinical heart disease and some form and degree of AIDS depending on the number of boosters at the very least. I expect there could be a bunch of fertility issues and spike in cancers in the coming years as well. 

It truly is pitiable that they can't tell the difference between propaganda/advertising and actual science, but it's too late for the most of these people anyway. Maybe some of them could recover enough to live out normal enough lives if they unplug now and stop taking boosters. I only know that it won't be me any my family, so good luck to everyone else.


----------



## PagaN (Feb 3, 2022)

f00king poison


----------



## djpannda (Feb 3, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> It truly is pitiable that they can't tell the difference between propaganda/advertising and actual science, but it's too late for the most of these people anyway.


Lolol I literally peed myself from laughing 
Lol  yup the sovereign fake vaccine police (who drink his own piss) vs 99% of the medical field …


----------



## djpannda (Feb 3, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> No person who is serious about health is going to repeatedly inject themselves with a bunch of "medicine" they don't need.


the definition of  a preventive medicine ..
man I can wait to hear your stance against  POLIO MMR VARICELLA Menigcocoal and TDAp vaccine which bout 99% of all kids in ANY SCHOOL (private or public ) need ....


----------



## grabman (Feb 3, 2022)

Gosh Degary is the commonly cited case.  Injected during the trials.  Crippled eats through a tube now.

https://thefederalist.com/2021/06/2...bing-daughters-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/

I mean stuff is going to happen with a rapid mass roll out.  What bothers me about her is she is blacklisted (prob why ya'll don't know about her) and they wrote her up as a stomach ache?  Stomach ache huh?

Look I got mandated and vaccinated.  Forget about whether it works.  Should that really be a thing? Either take this or get fired?  i honestly do hope it helps but logically speaking we were told it would prevent infection and well the virus ended up mutating and now it no longer prevents infection.  Is all this truly working overall?  Or is it causing the virus (which frankly i feel is a bioweapon) to just mutate more!  Perhaps the traditional 2 to 7 year typical time frame was wiser than people thought. 

I came across this odd case of swimmer who can no longer hold his breathe as long after vaccine



Florian Dagoury?  I mean I don't know him personally or anything...

There is also this other guy on twitter I ran into sound engineer.  Can no longer hear certain frequencies.  shame for that fellow...

id link you to his tweet but i can't be bothered here take this!

https://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/investigations/can-the-covid-19-vaccine-lead-to-hearing-issues

look facts are a hard thing to look at and consider.  This is a complicated issue and it requires HONEST debate.  Now is something killing people?  Yup.  Is it a virus in the traditional sense?  Methinks not.  I would call it a bioweapon.  But do I put it past these people to rush a vaccine to market and profit even if it is killing people?  Nope.  big fat nope.  Here's about an hour of athletes dying from the jabs...

https://www.bitchute.com/video/XGajIY6Q8qzX/

Look I think it is important to consider what we know for sure.  This is affecting animals.  Why?  I dunno.  Um look at the last wave.  THE WAVES ARE GETTING BIGGER AND WHAT WE ARE DOING IS NOT WORKING PEOPLE.  Look at the death counts.  Listen there comes a point where you start losing the brains of our society and things really can start falling apart here if we are not careful.  Should you trust television?  Nope.  That is a big fat no.  We have historical precedents here.  One mentioned Tuskegee.  Yes yes.  But there was also a botched vaccine rollout in the 70's and read a book called "Dr. Mary's Monkey"for an amazing story about what is known as SV40 which is essentially a dormant cancer causing gene introduced into the human genome by bad polio vaccine batches.  THEY HAVE SCREWED US BEFORE.  This is a major point.

Anywho I suspect many will die.  Whether they get vaccinated or not.  To me it is obvious it is about the mask.  They want to do away with photo id's and chip the global population.  That is what this is pretense for frankly.

I found these photos of a vaccinated fellows embalming.  btw.  I will leave them here.  Shame they had a great deal of problems with his blood for some reason.  Seemed to be clotting...


----------



## djpannda (Feb 3, 2022)

grabman said:


> Gosh Degary is the commonly cited case.  Injected during the trials.  Crippled eats through a tube now.
> 
> https://thefederalist.com/2021/06/2...bing-daughters-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/
> 
> ...



cool Random pic of blood (edit: sorry, random dark liquid) with no context.....
and NICE, links of *** _*NON-UNBIAS*_  """NEWS??"" the Federalist and Bitchute...
TOTALLY on the up to up


----------



## djpannda (Feb 3, 2022)

this reminds me of the "the vaccine makes you Magneto" crap people tried to claim... after they took a shower and all that shit was disproven, they just moving on to the next excuse about being selfish easy manipulated people


----------



## tabzer (Feb 3, 2022)

@djpannda took the vaccine and he turned out fine.   Look at those sharp mental faculties.

 Vaccine police aren't real.  Where is your non "non-unbias" news sources?  Great question!


----------



## djpannda (Feb 3, 2022)

tabzer said:


> at those sharp mental faculties.
> 
> Vaccine police aren't real.  Where is your non "non-unbias" news sources?  Great question!
> 
> ...


I think you mean “4billlon plus  took the vaccine and turned out fine. 
This has been the most widespread and in-depth real world testing of “Anything” and guess what same level of Adverse effects compared to other vaccines..
But hey fear mongers are going to troll


----------



## Lacius (Feb 3, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I'm not saying the vaccine is %100 bad. I'm saying that the the push for others to take it is reckless and overzealous.  Claims that the vaccine related injuries "cannot be substantiated" instead of "conclusively not" is a way to give vaccines the benefit of the doubt when I don't owe it any.  Considering with what is known about my current situation, I like my choice.


There is no evidence that the vaccines have any significant risk of causing serious harm, and there's evidence that they don't have any significant risk of causing serious harm. I've already explained all of this to you in detail, so why are you still pretending otherwise? If you want to behave rationally, you owe the vaccines much more than the benefit of the doubt.



tabzer said:


> Also, it's been highly ineffective in ending Covid and with fulfilling political promises to end covid related restrictions.  Goal-post shifting technology.


The vaccines have saved millions of lives worldwide, lol. Approximately 2,600 Americans are dying from COVID-19 everyday, and approximately 2,300 of them are unvaccinated.

As for "not ending COVID-19," one can mostly blame the unvaccinated for that. Thank you for reminding us.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 3, 2022)

PagaN said:


> f00king poison


Covid is indeed a poison to the body. The side effects often go on far longer than Covid itself.


----------



## City (Feb 3, 2022)

Lacius said:


> As for "not ending COVID-19," one can mostly blame the unvaccinated for that. Thank you for reminding us.


As someone who supports vaccines I'm sorry, but that's BS.

Ever since the media has taken a liking on blaming the unvaxxed for everything, millions of people everyday go on with their lives without thinking that certain behaviors can be harmful, because they're vaccinated: going out for five minutes? Oh it's ok, I don't need my mask. Feeling like sneezing? It's ok I'll just sneeze it out of my mask because I don't want my mucus inside my mask all day. Girlfriend might have COVID? I should definitely self-isolate, but I really want to go grab a drink with my buddies.

And let's take the biggest issue of them all: work.

"I think I have COVID, I should stay home"

"Ok but I'm not paying you for the day"

"Good news! The test was negative!"


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 3, 2022)

Wow, so much trash and shitpost in the last 24h, you guys never rest when it comes to spreading false information with random pictures and list of facts without link that you invent a cool story on. Like yeah, people that are healthy and then are not anymore happen all the time even without vaccines. Having *one* case happen is not surprising, you're not proving anything, it's very likely not even linked to the vaccine, or we'd have seen a lot of other cases similar to this one (as in : more than in the general population... spoiler : we don't see such an increase ! what a surprise !)



Glyptofane said:


> The available data begins to suggest they've all given themselves subclinical heart disease and some form and degree of AIDS depending on the number of boosters at the very least.


Source for the "data" you talk about, else gtfo.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 3, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> Wow, so much trash and shitpost in the last 24h, you guys never rest when it comes to spreading false information with random pictures and list of facts without link that you invent a cool story on. Like yeah, people that are healthy and then are not anymore happen all the time even without vaccines. Having *one* case happen is not surprising, you're not proving anything, it's very likely not even linked to the vaccine, or we'd have seen a lot of other cases similar to this one (as in : more than in the general population... spoiler : we don't see such an increase ! what a surprise !)
> 
> 
> Source for the "data" you talk about, else gtfo.


That's pretty normal when it comes to the anti-vax crowd. Post stupid shit with no sources and yet are expected to be taken seriously.


----------



## tpax (Feb 3, 2022)

City said:


> As someone who supports vaccines I'm sorry, but that's BS.
> 
> Ever since the media has taken a liking on blaming the unvaxxed for everything, millions of people everyday go on with their lives without thinking that certain behaviors can be harmful, because they're vaccinated: going out for five minutes? Oh it's ok, I don't need my mask. Feeling like sneezing? It's ok I'll just sneeze it out of my mask because I don't want my mucus inside my mask all day. Girlfriend might have COVID? I should definitely self-isolate, but I really want to go grab a drink with my buddies.
> 
> ...


Yea, the vaccine cultists are the biggest threat right now. Here in Germany, if you got your booster shot, you don't need a negative test to do whatever you want (going to a restaurant, visiting a gym, watching a movie in the cinema, and so on). At the same time, it is a known fact, that they spread covid the same way the unvaccinated do, while the unvaccined are isolated from almost anything. Not even being able to visit a hardware store. They even have to test themselves everyday to be able to go to work.
The tabloid press still blaming the unvaccinated for the spread. And the retarded german population believe that obviously made up agenda.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 3, 2022)

City said:


> As someone who supports vaccines I'm sorry, but that's BS.
> 
> Ever since the media has taken a liking on blaming the unvaxxed for everything, millions of people everyday go on with their lives without thinking that certain behaviors can be harmful, because they're vaccinated: going out for five minutes? Oh it's ok, I don't need my mask. Feeling like sneezing? It's ok I'll just sneeze it out of my mask because I don't want my mucus inside my mask all day. Girlfriend might have COVID? I should definitely self-isolate, but I really want to go grab a drink with my buddies.
> 
> ...


The reason the above behaviors are still bad in the first place is because of variants that emerged from there being low vaccination rates in places. That was my point.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 4, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> but it's too late for the most of these people anyway. Maybe some of them could recover enough to live out normal enough lives if they unplug now and stop taking boosters.



I honestly hope that people aren't adversely affected.




djpannda said:


> I think you mean “4billlon plus took the vaccine and turned out fine.



Let me know when they are finished taking the vaccine and we can talk then.


----------



## City (Feb 4, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The reason the above behaviors are still bad in the first place is because of variants that emerged from there being low vaccination rates in places. That was my point.


If we're talking about variants, Africa has nightmare-levels of vaccinations. It's very likely that any variants came from there. Should we ban all African residents from getting anywhere?

Had people not been scared of reporting themselves as sick at work and didn't believe of themselves as saints, this pandemic would've lasted six months at best.


----------



## Tac 21 (Feb 4, 2022)

City said:


> And let's take the biggest issue of them all: work.
> 
> "I think I have COVID, I should stay home"
> 
> ...




this can't be overstated...


r/antiwork has countless stories of bosses not giving a shit and firing people because they didn't come in...because of covid.

it actually makes me sick.

I'm sick of the controversy- if you want to get it get it if not don't bother those people.

I personally waited for the J&J to be available in my state because it was getting pretty annoying- I cross boarder trip often and everyone all shits out- Canada still tries to restrict boarder travel but fuck em- right to come and go.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 4, 2022)

City said:


> Should we ban all African residents from getting anywhere?


We should expand access to vaccinations.


----------



## City (Feb 4, 2022)

Lacius said:


> We should expand access to vaccinations.


Only 2% of vaccines have been administered in Africa. It's hard to help those who don't want to be helped. Yet they travel all over the world. And good luck vaxxing people who live in rural areas or war zones, or where illnesses like Ebola and AIDS are much more important.

There isn't much to do other than:

- Forcing people to wear masks correctly outside all the time (impossible and dystopic)
- Forcing companies to force infected employees to work from home or get paid time off if that's not possible

First one is, as I said, impossible. Second one is also impossible, considering also the millions of people who have a job "off the books". At this rate we can keep going with boosters forever, but you'll never have a 100% vaxxed population. Even if everyone were, there are still places like Africa and rural Asia where it's impossible to immunize all of them.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 4, 2022)

City said:


> Only 2% of vaccines have been administered in Africa. It's hard to help those who don't want to be helped.


You don't understand what this means. It isn't that people have them but don't want them. It's that only 2% of global vaccines have been given to the entire continent of Africa.

The vaccines are the #1 best way to reduce the spread of infection, the formation of new variants, hospitalizations, and death.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 4, 2022)

Lacius said:


> As for "not ending COVID-19," one can mostly blame the unvaccinated for that. Thank you for reminding us.



Imagine if I blamed you, predictibly being yourself, for my favorite politicians not being able to live up to their promises.  

If only everyone got vaccinated at the same exact time.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 4, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Imagine if I blamed you, predictibly being yourself, for my favorite politicians not being able to live up to their promises.
> 
> If only everyone got vaccinated at the same exact time.



"I didn't wear my seatbelt. Why don't seatbelts work?"


----------



## tabzer (Feb 4, 2022)

Lacius said:


> "I didn't wear my seatbelt. Why don't seatbelts work?"



Seatbelts only work if everyone puts one on at the same time.  It is our obligation to fulfill Mr. Biden's promise, together.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 4, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Seatbelts only work if everyone puts one on at the same time.


Seatbelts don't work if people don't use them. Vaccines don't prevent variants if people don't get vaccinated.



tabzer said:


> It is our obligation to fulfill Mr. Biden's promise, together.


I didn't say anything about politics, but I don't think it's the political left that's putting themselves and those around them in harm's way just because they're butthurt their candidate is a big loser.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 4, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Seatbelts don't work if people don't use them. Vaccines don't prevent variants if people don't get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> I didn't say anything about politics, but I don't think it's the political left that's putting themselves and those around them in harm's way just because they're butthurt their candidate is a big loser.



What I said from the beginning was based on the politics (promises, restrictions, mandates). 
I even said politicians.

Vaccines can create variants for highly mutatable diseases.  Maybe your 3x Covid 3x injection breeding ground created a couple variants itself.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 4, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Vaccines can create variants for highly mutatable diseases.  Maybe your 3x Covid 3x injection breeding ground created a couple variants itself.


This is just another one of your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. The science is clear that the best way to reduce the odds of new variants popping up is to limit the spread of disease, which is accomplished by vaccinating as many people as possible.



tabzer said:


> What I said from the beginning was based on the politics (promises, restrictions, mandates).
> I even said politicians.


Don't like masks, etc.? Get vaccinated, and get as many people to get vaccinated as possible.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 4, 2022)

Have those peeps constantly focusing on sources not yet realised that anything that doesn't follow a certain narrative gets banned from (or would never be expressed in the first place on) the sites you would consider a credible source? There is a lot of BS on the uncensored sites yes, but they're also the only place left for alternative views to exist freely.

It's a lot more effective to confront the actual arguments if the goal is to end up with better information. Of course, that's unlikely to happen if everyone is entrenched and the only goal is to win.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 4, 2022)

Lacius said:


> This is just another one of your unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. The science is clear that the best way to reduce the odds of new variants popping up is to limit the spread of disease, which is accomplished by vaccinating as many people as possible.


Yes, hosts with higher resistances are the places where mutations aren't incubated.  It they do, it's because of a conspiracy.

If you got Covid 3x, it's you who is doing something wrong.



Lacius said:


> Don't like masks, etc.? Get vaccinated, and get as many people to get vaccinated as possible.



It's not that I don't like the current situation as much as it is that a promise of effectivity relies on people that aren't me, and cannot be reasonably expected to comply.  It was a dead promise out of the gate and anybody who is reasonable would acknowledge it.  That you would continue to spout such a meritless platitude makes me think you are just an outright shill.  Are you Justin?


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 4, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> Have those peeps constantly focusing on sources not yet realised that anything that doesn't follow a certain narrative gets banned from (or would never be expressed in the first place on) the sites you would consider a credible source? There is a lot of BS on the uncensored sites yes, but they're also the only place left for alternative views to exist freely.
> 
> It's a lot more effective to confront the actual arguments if the goal is to end up with better information. Of course, that's unlikely to happen if everyone is entrenched and the only goal is to win.


You cannot have an argument about "data" if you are not able to provide said data. To provide data, you need it to be public somewhere. That's what's commonly called a source


----------



## zefyx (Feb 4, 2022)

x65943 said:


> The flu vaccine changes every year and its contents are determined by an educated guess as to which strains will be circulating that cycle. For that reason they don't always get it right, but it still confers a degree of protection and saves lives every year.
> 
> As for COVID there is no data showing that mutation by the virus will render the vaccines ineffective - corona viruses don't have the ability to mutate in the same way the flu does. The flu doesn't evolve naturally, rather it's simply shuffling around different components in animal hosts. So the flu is really several different viruses shuffling around their parts.


This didn't age well.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 4, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> You cannot have an argument about "data" if you are not able to provide said data. To provide data, you need it to be public somewhere. That's what's commonly called a source


I'd be pretty surprised if many people here are qualified to comment on actual raw data, instead of just relying on someone else's interpretation of it. Statistical analysis is as difficult as it is boring lol


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 4, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> I'd be pretty surprised if many people here are qualified to comment on actual raw data, instead of just relying on someone else's interpretation of it. Statistical analysis is as difficult as it is boring lol


Yet people go around saying "data shows/suggests that vaccies have this and that dangerous side effect" but are unable to provide anything to substantiate the claim. If anyone's not able to show the data or an analysis of it that substantiates their claims, then their claims are most likely unfounded 
Yes, data analysis is boring, but at least it's not annoying like debunking false claims that people get out of their asses is


----------



## x65943 (Feb 4, 2022)

zefyx said:


> This didn't age well.


To some extent, but also - the vaccines are still highly effective at preventing death and severe illness


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 5, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> Have those peeps constantly focusing on sources not yet realised that anything that doesn't follow a certain narrative gets banned from (or would never be expressed in the first place on) the sites you would consider a credible source? There is a lot of BS on the uncensored sites yes, but they're also the only place left for alternative views to exist freely.
> 
> It's a lot more effective to confront the actual arguments if the goal is to end up with better information. Of course, that's unlikely to happen if everyone is entrenched and the only goal is to win.


Requesting trustworthy sources and discarding junk is literally how you prevent misinformation from spreading. If a “source” is making claims without explaining how they got to that conclusion, without citing the research conducted or the sources they are quoting. Then it’s best to assume they either made everything up or they are deliberately hiding information for a narrative. If a source is making completely different claims from everyone else and aren’t citing where that claim came from, then it’s probably junk. The process of eliminating junk and misinformation is extremely important. Equally, the alternative views on vaccines is based on garbage. The anti-vax movement is not based on science and have only made false claims, spread misinformation, and spreadable diseases. Allowing their comments to go unchecked only encourages the spread of misinformation.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 5, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Requesting trustworthy sources and discarding junk is literally how you prevent misinformation from spreading. If a “source” is making claims without explaining how they got to that conclusion, without citing the research conducted or the sources they are quoting. Then it’s best to assume they either made everything up or they are deliberately hiding information for a narrative. If a source is making completely different claims from everyone else and aren’t citing where that claim came from, then it’s probably junk. The process of eliminating junk and misinformation is extremely important. Equally, the alternative views on vaccines is based on garbage. The anti-vax movement is not based on science and have only made false claims, spread misinformation, and spreadable diseases. Allowing their comments to go unchecked only encourages the spread of misinformation.



So how do you make the claim that the vaccines are safe and effective when nobody has finished taking their 8th booster?


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 5, 2022)

tabzer said:


> So how do you make the claim that the vaccines are safe and effective when nobody has finished taking their 8th booster?


Is this supposed to be some kind of "gotcha" or just an admittance that you are afraid of medicine?


----------



## kekkius (Feb 5, 2022)

Italian, still no magic fluid in my veins, i know only 4 people that didn't get the vaccine, everyone around me continue to get covid, me UngaBunga think "i can get Green pass if i got infected." start to share water bottle, kiss and everything i can with infected people....talk with the 4 friend unsurprisely they are doing the same....moral of the story....we didn't get covid and aborted the mission after 1 month, people around us keep getting covid, we still have no magic fluid and we still have no covid....immagine my face when the government is going to make it mandatory *insert Disappointed meme*.....it feel like AOT zeke make titans, i'm still human, around me only Ymir subject, i fear for the titan control *meme AOT intro start playng*(Conspiracy theory mode off)


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 5, 2022)

kekkius said:


> a


a


kekkius said:


> Italian, still no magic fluid in my veins, i know only 4 people that didn't get the vaccine, everyone around me continue to get covid, me UngaBunga think "i can get Green pass if i got infected." start to share water bottle, kiss and everything i can with infected people....talk with the 4 friend unsurprisely they are doing the same....moral of the story....we didn't get covid and aborted the mission after 1 month, people around us keep getting covid, we still have no magic fluid and we still have no covid....immagine my face when the government is going to make it mandatory *insert Disappointed meme*.....it feel like AOT zeke make titans, i'm still human, around me only Ymir subject, i fear for the titan control *meme AOT intro start playng*(Conspiracy theory mode off)


One of the biggest reasons why Covid is still spreading to the vaccinated is because the current vaccines aren’t as effective on recent variants. This is the purpose of getting boosters, to increase the effectiveness of the vaccines. There’s also the reason of people acting like the vaccines make them immune and doing shit like going to parties/gatherings and letting their guard time. As for the whole, “I’ve never gotten it,” have you been tested? Did you get tested whenever you felt sick or possibly off? There’s always a slight chance that you were asymptomatic. There’s just as much of a chance that you’ve never gotten it, but without regular testing, that’s something that needs be considered.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Is this supposed to be some kind of "gotcha" or just an admittance that you are afraid of medicine?



To make a conclusion before the end of an experiment is unreasonable.  The question was rhetorical to point out that you already said something stupid.  I don't need to trick you.

There are also already anomolies which could or could not be caused by the vaccine.  At very best vaccines _could _be safe and effective.

It may be possible, even considering the unresolved cases, that the vaccine is safer than Covid statistically.

I have a problem with how you lot use statistics though.  Frankly, it's fucked up.

If I told you that you have greater than %50 of suicide and that you will unlikely live out your 30's how willing would you be to abide by those statistics and base all your decisions around them?  Let's say these are definite facts and to deny them would be anti-science.  Is that the type of narrative you want to listen to?  Or maybe you already believe this and are doing your part to fulfill the statistics.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 6, 2022)

tabzer said:


> To make a conclusion before the end of an experiment is unreasonable.  The question was rhetorical to point out that you already said something stupid.  I don't need to trick you.
> 
> There are also already anomolies which could or could not be caused by the vaccine.  At very best vaccines _could _be safe and effective.
> 
> ...


What's fucked up is your blind rejection of the science that shows the vaccines to be safe and effective.


----------



## urherenow (Feb 6, 2022)

ccfman2004 said:


> I do know that COVID-19 was in the US back in 2019 before the doctors here knew what it was as I know somebody who his doctors are pretty sure had COVID in Dec 2019 despite no one knowing about it in the US until 2020.


Ummm... what? It wasn't being called COVID19 yet, but Trump specifically brought it up during his SOTU address. The pre-written transcript of which Pelosi ripped up on national TV? Remember?


----------



## tabzer (Feb 6, 2022)

Lacius said:


> What's fucked up is your blind rejection of the science that shows the vaccines to be safe and effective.


I’m not rejecting potentially anomalous data.  I’ve also already dropped a reference regarding indefinite repeated use of the vaccine that contradicts both the claim of safety and effectiveness.  “Safe and effective” is not a scientific statement.  It’s a catchphrase.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 6, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I’ve also already dropped a reference regarding indefinite repeated use of the vaccine that contradicts both the claim of safety and effectiveness.


There's no substantive evidence that the vaccines aren't safe or effective.

There is very strong evidence they are safe and effective.



tabzer said:


> “Safe and effective” is not a scientific statement.  It’s a catchphrase.


Things can, in fact, be demonstrated to be safe and/or effective scientifically. These are quantifiable metrics that are in science's domain. Try again.


----------



## urherenow (Feb 6, 2022)

I was tested yesterday for travel today (in a few hours). While waiting for my results (felt like less than 10 minutes), 3 people popped positive. I felt more at risk having to be in the same room with the positives... distancing be damned, than I have in the past 2 years. 1 of those positives was both vaxxed, and had zero symptoms. His test was also for pre-travel, and he didn't look too happy...

Been using standard every-day masks here in Japan, but for the next week or so (as soon as I send this edit), it's gonna be nothing but KN95s for me. Can't afford to pop positive for the return trip!


----------



## tabzer (Feb 6, 2022)

Lacius said:


> There's no substantive evidence that the vaccines aren't safe or effective.
> 
> There is very strong evidence they are safe and effective.



There is substantive evidence that we don’t know if the vaccines are responsible for killing people or not.  You have to ignore this to field the claim that vaccines are safe.



Lacius said:


> Things can, in fact, be demonstrated to be safe and/or effective scientifically. These are quantifiable metrics that are in science's domain. Try again.



You use the words subjectively depending on the context of the conversation.  Most of the time, the claim of safety is strictly _relative_ to statistics regarding Covid.  In regards to the vaccine, itself, being “safe” that’s already shot down by the admission of side-effects.

As for effectiveness, I guess 3 months is the upper limit in terms of duration.  In terms of preventing people from contracting it, and spreading it (Covid); those are different measures for the same word.  Just because you can use words in scientific fashion doesn’t mean you are using them scientifically every time you parrot them.  You have been using “safe and effective” as a catchphrase.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 6, 2022)

tabzer said:


> There is substantive evidence that we don’t know if the vaccines are responsible for killing people or not.


I don't think you know what the word "evidence" means, because that isn't how evidence works. Regardless, we have plenty of evidence that the vaccines are not killing people.



tabzer said:


> You use the words subjectively depending on the context of the conversation.  Most of the time, the claim of safety is strictly _relative_ to statistics regarding Covid.  In regards to the vaccine, itself, being “safe” that’s already shot down by the admission of side-effects.


"Don't use seatbelts. The cost/benefit calculation only works relative to your safety in a car accident." Lol.

I've also been clear this whole time that there are significant risks of minor side effects, and these side effects are evidence that your immune system is appropriately responding to the vaccine. In other words, the vaccine is working. What I've been responding to are your claims that the vaccines have, or are likely to have, significant risks of serious side effects and death.

When you repeatedly make these unsubstantiated and conspiratorial claims, presumably by sitting on your keyboard and farting into it, I feel the need to correct you. I don't want people who read the posts in this thread to see your misinformation, not get vaccinated, and then become one of the thousands of people who die per day because of vaccine misinformation.



tabzer said:


> As for effectiveness, I guess 3 months is the upper limit in terms of duration.  In terms of preventing people from contracting it, and spreading it (Covid); those are different measures for the same word.


None of this contradicts the scientifically established efficacy of the vaccines, but I'm not surprised. You aren't even trying anymore.

The efficacy of the vaccines last longer than three months, albeit there is waning efficacy over time. One is significantly less likely to die of COVID-19 even if they were fully vaccinated a year ago but haven't received a booster. The booster, however, is highly recommended, and you're even less likely to die from COVID-19 with it.



tabzer said:


> Just because you can use words in scientific fashion doesn’t mean you are using them scientifically every time you parrot them.  You have been using “safe and effective” as a catchphrase.


I haven't used the words "safe" or "effective" in any other context other than a scientifically quantifiable one. That's kind of the whole point.

I know it's inconvenient for you that your position is an inherently anti-scientific one, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have rejected science.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 6, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I don't think you know what the word "evidence" means, because that isn't how evidence works. Regardless, we have plenty of evidence that the vaccines are not killing people.


A definitive claim of safety merits that those cases are concluded to not being due to the vaccine.  It is real data that contradict the claim, so it cannot be ignored.  

You can skim away the “we don’t know” factor when determining to send someone to jail.

But the vaccine and claims of its safety do not get the benefit of the doubt.



Lacius said:


> None of this contradicts the scientifically established efficacy of the vaccines


You are right.  But what the science says, and what it means for the real world application look like two different things.  “The science” tests have a definite start and finish to curate data.  We have no reason to expect there to be an end, so “the science” saying they are safe and effective is losing relevance every day as the conditions change.  It comes to the point that you are your own misinformation if you aren’t fully informed with the threshold of how many boosters is good for the body, or the current dominating strain, its landscape, its complications and mortality.  Basically, in this ongoing science experiment, your conclusions are really only hypotheses. 



Lacius said:


> What I've been responding to are your claims that the vaccines have, or are likely to have, significant risks of serious side effects and death.



Well, I’ve been responding to claims that they are definitely safe, and that nobody has anything to worry about by jumping into the lifetime regiment of vaccination boosters.  Also, there’s data that a significant number of people may or may not have died from the vaccine.


----------



## KingVamp (Feb 6, 2022)

Lacius said:


> "Don't use seatbelts. The cost/benefit calculation only works relative to your safety in a car accident." Lol.
> 
> I've also been clear this whole time that there are significant risks of minor side effects, and these side effects are evidence that your immune system is appropriately responding to the vaccine. In other words, the vaccine is working. What I've been responding to are your claims that the vaccines have, or are likely to have, significant risks of serious side effects and death.


What he said, is basically just another admission of being anti-medicine.


----------



## Dragon91Nippon (Feb 6, 2022)

First of all No I'm not answering this question, both groups here can hate me equally I don't care

Secondly, why the hell do we do these threads here anyway, Everyone always becomes extremely salty and contemptful towards each other. It seems very unhealthy for this community since after these threads we usually all hate each other at the end of these threads due to differing opinions, at least to some degree. I could quote those with the Most harsh opinions here to prove this (don't worry both sides would be included, I won't favor either side) but I won't because I don't want to mass ping people here.


----------



## Minox (Feb 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> One of the biggest reasons why Covid is still spreading to the vaccinated is because the current vaccines aren’t as effective on recent variants. This is the purpose of getting boosters, to increase the effectiveness of the vaccines.


If it wasn't effective the first times, what's to say it is more effective the 3rd or 4th time?

I've taken the initial doses, but to me it kind of seems like the booster doses are just a form of doubling down on something that ultimately isn't all that effective anymore.


----------



## kekkius (Feb 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> a
> 
> One of the biggest reasons why Covid is still spreading to the vaccinated is because the current vaccines aren’t as effective on recent variants. This is the purpose of getting boosters, to increase the effectiveness of the vaccines. There’s also the reason of people acting like the vaccines make them immune and doing shit like going to parties/gatherings and letting their guard time. As for the whole, “I’ve never gotten it,” have you been tested? Did you get tested whenever you felt sick or possibly off? There’s always a slight chance that you were asymptomatic. There’s just as much of a chance that you’ve never gotten it, but without regular testing, that’s something that needs be considered.


Never felt sick, but got tested every 2 days for work from the 15 October (same for my friends)....in Italy almost everyone have done the "booster", but lemme explain something in my life experience they get COVID way more easy, we got the last "wave" of COVID as soon as they started taking the 3rd shot, to this day 6/2 in Italy you pay 15 euro per test the salary is 1000 euro month, living expenses are 1200 euro month, people with booster take COVID easily than others, people understood that vaccines do not work, but still get them because everyone is POOR and have no time to protest because they need to make money..... From the 15/2 in Italy non vaccinated people can't work anymore, from last august they can only go to grocery store, in my town 94% 2 shots, 85% 3 shots, still 1 case every 20 people, in Italy we got almost 200000 case per day everyday for the last month, soon we are going to have a big economic crisis and people keep telling them self that vaccines work, I'm the living proof that this is bullshit, I'm not afraid of viruses and I'm not afraid of medicines, i just don't give a fluk, i understand vaccinated people, they are afraid of long term side effects... This message was written as soon as I woke up, sorry for the mess ....in the end, if you(everyone) want the shot get shot, but stop talking and keep on living normally, stop making a fuss over a virus that will keep on exist even after we are extinct, UNGABUNGA me will keep on living.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 6, 2022)

Minox said:


> If it wasn't effective the first times, what's to say it is more effective the 3rd or 4th time?
> 
> I've taken the initial doses, but to me it kind of seems like the booster doses are just a form of doubling down on something that ultimately is not that effective anymore.


Boosters help with covering more recent mutations that previous shots are less effective with. Technically the initial shots are still effective against lessening the effects of newer variants but it’s more effective with boosters.


----------



## Minox (Feb 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Boosters help with covering more recent mutations that previous shots are less effective with. Technically the initial shots are still effective against lessening the effects of newer variants but it’s more effective with boosters.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the current boosters are still the same vaccines as the first doses?


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 6, 2022)

Minox said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the current boosters are still the same vaccines as the first doses?


Did a quick search and I am not actually sure but it looks like they are basically updated versions of the OG vaccines. Unfortunately, I am not actually that familiar with anything around this kind of question. I would definitely look that one up or ask a professional who might be able to answer that better.


----------



## kekkius (Feb 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Did a quick search and I am not actually sure but it looks like they are basically updated versions of the OG vaccines. Unfortunately, I am not actually that familiar with anything around this kind of question. I would definitely look that one up or ask a professional who might be able to answer that better.


The 3rd is the same as the previous....new one will come in the end of March with the 4th doses....here in Italy, i do not know elsewhere. Also omicron has spike mutations over 30 of them, so the old vaccines do not work, because they based the vaccines on protein spike....the more you know....just to be clear I read a lot of medicine books in the past 2 year(I'm not completely ungabunga), to understand better the situation, in synthesis the vaccines work to some extent, triggering the immune system to attack some protein receptors (same as the virus), so when you get COVID your immune system is already attacking that's the reason you need more than 1, this technology exist from '87 and will be implemented in future common cancer vaccines, this is just the first time using it on humans, the problem is not the shot, but the fact that you need it again and again and again, because the virus will not magically vanish.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 6, 2022)

I thought everyone knew that boosters weren't tailored for a new variant, but more of the same stuff.  That's why some countries, like Canada for example, bought 10x the vaccines than there are residents.  (4x back in 2020).  The boosters were already a pre-planned contingency method to keep resistance high when it starts to wane.


----------



## GBAer (Feb 6, 2022)

tpax said:


> Yea, the vaccine cultists are the biggest threat right now. Here in Germany, if you got your booster shot, you don't need a negative test to do whatever you want (going to a restaurant, visiting a gym, watching a movie in the cinema, and so on). At the same time, it is a known fact, that they spread covid the same way the unvaccinated do, while the unvaccined are isolated from almost anything. Not even being able to visit a hardware store. They even have to test themselves everyday to be able to go to work.
> The tabloid press still blaming the unvaccinated for the spread. And the retarded german population believe that obviously made up agenda.


Totally agree. I'd much rather be in a room full of the the unvaccinated, that have had a negative test, than a room full of triple jabbed vaccine cultists that haven't been tested.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 6, 2022)

While it's true that vaccinated people like Lacius may have spread Covid 3x the amount of someone who was infected once does, and that contradictions exists in mandate policies...  Anxiety and fear of either or is not the basis to be making rational decisions, and discrimination against someone isn't going to make your life stop sucking.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 6, 2022)

tabzer said:


> A definitive claim of safety merits that those cases are concluded to not being due to the vaccine.  It is real data that contradict the claim, so it cannot be ignored.
> 
> You can skim away the “we don’t know” factor when determining to send someone to jail.
> 
> But the vaccine and claims of its safety do not get the benefit of the doubt.


Numerous replicable and peer-reviewed studies show the vaccines are safe and effective. We also know from the evidence that there has been no increase in the frequency of any serious health condition since the beginning of the pandemic that hasn't already been attributed to something (e.g. COVID-19). I love how you repeatedly and shamelessly keep ignoring this part since the reality of the situation doesn't fit well with your conspiratorial narrative. It makes me laugh.

The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe, and the claims that they aren't or "we don't know" have been debunked.



tabzer said:


> You are right.  But what the science says, and what it means for the real world application look like two different things.  “The science” tests have a definite start and finish to curate data.  We have no reason to expect there to be an end, so “the science” saying they are safe and effective is losing relevance every day as the conditions change.  It comes to the point that you are your own misinformation if you aren’t fully informed with the threshold of how many boosters is good for the body, or the current dominating strain, its landscape, its complications and mortality.  Basically, in this ongoing science experiment, your conclusions are really only hypotheses.


If you get vaccinated now, you will always be one or two doses behind everybody else, which means there will always be ample evidence of the safety and efficacy of the vaccines before you get another dose. With that concern and all others out of the way, please let us know how your first dose goes. 

I can't believe I have to say this, but whether or not the safety of a 48th dose has been established is irrelevant to whether or not the safety of a first, second, third, or fourth dose has been established.



tabzer said:


> Well, I’ve been responding to claims that they are definitely safe, and that nobody has anything to worry about by jumping into the lifetime regiment of vaccination boosters.


The vaccines have been established to be as safe or safer than most commonly prescribed medical treatments.



tabzer said:


> Also, there’s data that a significant number of people may or may not have died from the vaccine.


There is zero data that any significant number of people have died from the vaccines, there is no data I'm aware of that anyone has died from an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine, and we have data that contradicts the claim that any significant number of people have died from the vaccines.

Not only are you spewing unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, but you're spewing debunked unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.



Minox said:


> If it wasn't effective the first times, what's to say it is more effective the 3rd or 4th time?
> 
> I've taken the initial doses, but to me it kind of seems like the booster doses are just a form of doubling down on something that ultimately isn't all that effective anymore.


Although the initial two doses continue to be effective at keeping people from suffering serious illness and death, boosters have been shown to be significantly more effective at keeping people out of the hospital and from dying than the initial two doses alone.



Minox said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the current boosters are still the same vaccines as the first doses?


They are.



tabzer said:


> While it's true that vaccinated people like Lacius may have spread Covid 3x the amount of someone who was infected once does, and that contradictions exists in mandate policies...  Anxiety and fear of either or is not the basis to be making rational decisions, and discrimination against someone isn't going to make your life stop sucking.


Since a vaccinated person is less likely to contract the disease than their unvaccinated counterparts, the unvaccinated (who didn't already have the disease) are more likely to catch and spread the disease.

Before the variants, a vaccinated person was less likely to contract the disease than an unvaccinated person with natural immunity alone.

With the variants, natural immunity offers somewhat more protection than vaccination alone, but vaccination plus natural immunity offers significantly better protection than natural immunity alone. Vaccination, of course, still offers significantly higher protection than not being vaccinated and not having natural immunity.

Even with the variants, the vaccine continues to be the safest and most effective way of reducing the spread of COVID-19, and it's also the best way to reduce one's odds of serious illness or death. In order to have natural immunity in the first place, you have to catch and potentially spread the disease.



GBAer said:


> Totally agree. I'd much rather be in a room full of the the unvaccinated, that have had a negative test, than a room full of triple jabbed vaccine cultists that haven't been tested.


If we stop comparing apples and oranges, I would rather be in a room of vaccinated people with negative tests than in a room of unvaccinated people with negative tests.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Did a quick search and I am not actually sure but it looks like they are basically updated versions of the OG vaccines. Unfortunately, I am not actually that familiar with anything around this kind of question. I would definitely look that one up or ask a professional who might be able to answer that better.


There are no updated versions. The booster terminology is a bit misleading in that it is merely another dose of the vaccine, but it may be beneficial if your 3rd shot is of a different vaccine than the previous 2. I got 2 AZ and then my "booster" was Pfizer (*spit*) and I was told that was deliberate to try to provide the best coverage. I have no idea if any of it is supported by actual data or is just based on modelling.

The difference for me was that I still acted as though I was unvaccinated whenever I went out and was a lot more careful than some other people that thought they were invincible once vaccinated.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 6, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Also, there’s data that a significant number of people may or may not have died from the vaccine.


show the data you are alluding to.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 6, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> There are no updated versions. The booster terminology is a bit misleading in that it is merely another dose of the vaccine, but it may be beneficial if your 3rd shot is of a different vaccine than the previous 2. I got 2 AZ and then my "booster" was Pfizer (*spit*) and I was told that was deliberate to try to provide the best coverage. I have no idea if any of it is supported by actual data or is just based on modelling.
> 
> The difference for me was that I still acted as though I was unvaccinated whenever I went out and was a lot more careful than some other people that thought they were invincible once vaccinated.


Thanks for correcting me. I am not even going to pretend I was even close there.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 6, 2022)

Look peeps, that's how you do it to recognise when you talked out of your ass. A thing none of you vaccine-deniers ever did in this thread, though you were shown to spread misinformation time and time again.
You'd be well to remember how it's done, and that it is what science does all the time (review the position of the consensus in light of the data and facts, which you do not)


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Thanks for correcting me. I am not even going to pretend I was even close there.


It might change in the future as they are looking into the ability to target specific variants, but for now it's just a simple re-charge of your antibody levels.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 6, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> show the data you are alluding to.





tabzer said:


> this post



The claims that vaccines are safe merits that cases like these are conclusive:

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20211119/p2a/00m/0na/042000c

It's always been that way too.  Like with claims of vaccines contributing to autism, the HPV vaccine which caused Japan to become reluctant about vaccine related promises.  "Correlation does not imply causation." There is a whole list on the CDC's website of vaccines which had issues, but they were able to deflect liability from manufacturers with this one simple trick.  There was always a divide about this topic and it won't go away until the autism, these deaths, and other correlations do have conclusive cause.  Until then, it could be the vaccine, it could be not the vaccine.  The proposition that the vaccine is going to save the world if everybody takes them seems more like a declaration of war than a genuine attempt to fix anything.

Here's a fact check about the claim that those without a booster after 3 months suffer levels of immunity strength less than being unvaccinated.  The reality appears that it was that the vaccinated were spreading the variant at much faster levels, possibly due to the belief that they were protected.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-immunesystem-covid19-vaccines-idUSL1N2TE17B

The idea of throwing more vaccine at new variants doesn't seem sustainable:

https://www.voanews.com/a/eu-drug-r...t-overuse-of-covid-booster-shots/6395174.html

Anyway, if Lacius considers himself "healthy" even when he claims to get Covid 3x AND 3x vaccine doses, I'm not wholly moved by his attempt to paint grim pictures.  I think you maybe contributing to more placebo related injury for those who live by your measure and application of statistics.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 6, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Anyway, if Lacius considers himself "healthy" even when he claims to get Covid 3x AND 3x vaccine doses, I'm not wholly moved by his attempt to paint grim pictures.  I think you maybe contributing to more placebo related injury for those who live by your measure and application of statistics.


We have studies that demonstrate the safety and efficacy of the vaccines. They're repeatable and peer reviewed.

Very importantly, we haven't seen the frequency of any medical conditions go up between the beginning of vaccine availability and now that haven't already been associated with something else like COVID-19. You keep ignoring this point, and it isn't surprising. Conspiracy theorists tend to ignore evidence that contradict their baseless ideas.

There is no evidence that vaccinated people were spreading the disease more than their unvaccinated counterparts. The vaccine continues to be the best and safest way to reduce the spread of COVID-19, and that includes delta and omicron. I'm wondering if you read your own source.

As far as I'm aware, I haven't had COVID-19 three times. I had it once in January of 2021 (before the vaccine was available). I might have had it in February of 2020, but 
I never got a test (they weren't readily available), and I'm not convinced it was COVID-19.

Edit: I should also mention that if you're going to talk about me, make sure to tag me or respond to my post directly. Anything else is cowardly.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 6, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The claims that vaccines are safe merits that cases like these are conclusive:
> 
> https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20211119/p2a/00m/0na/042000c
> 
> ...


the answer lies in this sentence. You're welcome, I can read as you see 



> One reason for such a high figure is that various causes of deaths, other than from vaccines, can occur coincidentally. Furthermore, it is necessary to draw a comparison with the uninoculated to determine if a symptom is an adverse reaction, but no such database exists in Japan.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 6, 2022)

I might add, you say we reject data that don't go in our direction. This is false. We take in all conclusive data, and that data exists all over the world and can easily be generalised to Japan, where you are specifically cherry-picking that data does not exist and conclude that hence, it could be dangerous. You're the cherry-picker, not us.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 7, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> I might add, you say we reject data that don't go in our direction. This is false. We take in all conclusive data, and that data exists all over the world and can easily be generalised to Japan, where you are specifically cherry-picking that data does not exist and conclude that hence, it could be dangerous. You're the cherry-picker, not us.


I stated why I think rejecting this data as inconclusive is a disservice and doesn't support definitive claims of safety.

A sentiment from the article:

_"Instead of just saying it 'can't be evaluated,' I want them to draw a proper conclusion," said Yuji Okamoto, 63. His son Hiroyuki, a resident of the city of Higashihiroshima in Hiroshima Prefecture, died aged 30 after getting his second Moderna Inc. vaccine shot. _

There should be no inconclusive data when making the definite claim of safety.  If the safety of the vaccine is guaranteed, there should be a proper method to guarantee it as not being a cause of these deaths.  The claim about these deaths is,"we can't tell if the vaccines did it or not."

Here is a Japanese study that is a little more conclusive about the deaths having causal relationship.  It's interesting and directly contradicts a few claims floating around.

Translated PDF


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I stated why I think rejecting this data as inconclusive is a disservice and doesn't support definitive claims of safety.
> 
> A sentiment from the article:
> 
> ...


In Chile, we've got at least 60 deaths right after some vaccination phase (since 2019). The last one was an athlete and died of heart malfunction, almost a month ago, with no past clinical history of heart diseases:

https://redgol.cl/redsport/Luto-en-...llece-en-la-prueba-de-nado-20220109-0023.html (page in Spanish). So what the Japanese study proves is accurate with what's going on over here,


----------



## Lacius (Feb 7, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I stated why I think rejecting this data as inconclusive is a disservice and doesn't support definitive claims of safety.
> 
> A sentiment from the article:
> 
> ...


If, for example, someone dies of a brain aneurysm after receiving the vaccine, a causal relationship between the vaccine and the aneurysm would not be able to be determined in the absence of evidence that the vaccine did it. You're asking that scientists and medical professionals prove a negative with individual cases, and that isn't how things work. After that, if you want to find out if the vaccine causes brain aneurysms, you check to see if the proportion of the population that suffered brain aneurysms has increased since the release of the vaccine, and if it has, you then check to see if there's a correlation between vaccination status and the increase in brain aneurysms.

There has been no increase in the frequency of any medical condition, that hasn't already been attributed to something, since the vaccines became available. In other words, people are dying (and from the same things) at the rate that we would expect.

This is how science works. I'm sorry if you are unable or unwilling to understand this.



Coto said:


> In Chile, we've got at least 60 deaths right after some vaccination phase (since 2019). The last one was an athlete and died of heart malfunction, almost a month ago:
> 
> https://redgol.cl/redsport/Luto-en-...llece-en-la-prueba-de-nado-20220109-0023.html (page in Spanish). So what the Japanese study proves is accurate with what's going on over here,


There is no evidence that the vaccines caused this heart attack, and as far as I'm aware, there's no evidence the vaccines have caused any heart attacks.

In fact, things like open water swimming and triathlons have been linked to sudden cardiac events. That's not even taking into account the athlete's physical condition, medical history, possible underlying health conditions, genetics, lifestyle, etc.

It's a mistake to say this was caused by, or likely caused by, the vaccine. There's no evidence of this, and since heart attack rates across different demographics haven't changed, there's evidence against it.


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

Lacius said:


> If, for example, someone dies of a brain aneurysm after receiving the vaccine, a causal relationship between the vaccine and the aneurysm would not be able to be determined in the absence of evidence that the vaccine did it. You're asking that scientists and medical professionals prove a negative with individual cases, and that isn't how things work. After that, if you want to find out if the vaccine causes brain aneurysms, you check to see if the proportion of the population that suffered brain aneurysms has increased since the release of the vaccine, and if it has, you then check to see if there's a correlation between vaccination status and the increase in brain aneurysms.
> 
> There has been no increase in the frequency of any medical condition, that hasn't already been attributed to something, since the vaccines became available. In other words, people are dying (and from the same things) at the rate that we would expect.
> 
> ...


You're paid to tell deaths by vaccination are fake.  Are you paying the rent from that job?

I mean 60 people from Chile died without any clinical history of diseases, yet, all they have in common is that at most, were vaccinated within 2 weeks. Deaths ranging from heart diseases like myocarditis, brain diseases like encephalomyelitis , etc.

Do you have any papers other than the United Nations, saying these deaths are totally unrelated to vaccination, and instead, because of a faulty inmune system? .


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> You're paid to tell deaths by vaccination are fake.  Are you paying the rent from that job?
> 
> I mean 60 people from Chile died without any clinical history of diseases, yet, all they have in common is that at most, were vaccinated within 2 weeks. Deaths ranging from heart diseases like myocarditis, brain diseases like encephalomyelitis , etc.
> 
> Do you have any papers other than the United Nations, saying these deaths are totally unrelated to vaccination, and instead, because of a faulty inmune system? .


Can you provide actually medical reports stating that these are actual side effect of COVID vaccine? 
Because I can say that it’s not the Covid Vaccine, maybe it’s the Polio vaccine South Americans get because if you don’t provide actual proof then it’s just verbal diarrhea..
.. https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-020-05115-7


----------



## Lacius (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> You're paid to tell deaths by vaccination are fake.  Are you paying the rent from that job?
> 
> I mean 60 people from Chile died without any clinical history of diseases, yet, all they have in common is that at most, were vaccinated within 2 weeks. Deaths ranging from heart diseases like myocarditis, brain diseases like encephalomyelitis , etc.
> 
> Do you have any papers other than the United Nations, saying these deaths are totally unrelated to vaccination, and instead, because of a faulty inmune system? .


There is a real, albeit very rare, risk of myocarditis with the mRNA vaccines. That being said, there are mitigations against it, and I'm unaware of any evidence that anyone has died as a direct result of it.

As to your other point, deaths (unfortunately) happen all the time. If you're going to say they were caused or likely caused by the vaccines, you need to demonstrate this, particularly when there has been no demonstration that there has been any increase in the frequencies of medical conditions since the release of the vaccines.

Anecdotes are not data, and correlation doesn't equal causation. You might as well be arguing that Legend of Arceus causes brain aneurysms.


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

djpannda said:


> Can you provide actually medical reports stating that these are actual side effect of COVID vaccine?
> Because I can say that it’s not the Covid Vaccine, maybe it’s the Polio vaccine South Americans get because if you don’t provide actual proof then it’s just verbal diarrhea..
> .. https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-020-05115-7


I can actually state the 60 people's names without any clinical diseases background so you can perform your own research instead of your totally trustable diarrhea sources.
Also you're still not proving deaths by vaccination, you're still quoting another disease without even knowing the last 60 chilean casualties. Are you a psychic or plain simply lying to cover up these deaths?

Edit: List of vaccine victims starting 2019, the year chileans 6 months after COVID emerged and 1st generation vaccines were made available:



Spoiler



-Cristopher Mansilla
-Luis Rogel (father of a kid who got encephalomyelitis from a vaccine shot, chilean laws prevent people's identity under 18 to be publicly exposed)
-Nelson Orellana

Renato Esteban Bastías Fischer athlete dead after vaccination

Hidden identity by chilean authorities, yet reported decease by Thrombosis after Astrazeneca dose

74 year old woman dead after vaccination

39 deaths reported by chilean government after vaccine shots

Tomás Vidiella, 83, death after vaccination shot

2 underage dead after vaccination

Doctor Guillermo Solar death. News and COLMED (another chilean health branch provided by the United Nations), hid the fact he was just vaccinated

Doctor René Sánchez death. News and COLMED (another chilean health branch provided by the United Nations), hid the fact he was just vaccinated

Doctor Francisco Briceño death after vaccination (video, a colleague, whose identity was indicated to remain anonymous, mentioned he died right after Pfizer dose)

Doctor Ricardo Tobar Herrera death. News and COLMED (another chilean health branch provided by the United Nations), hid the fact he was just vaccinated

Doctor Juan Carlos Carvajal, Doctor Patricio Morales death. News and COLMED (another chilean health branch provided by the United Nations), hid the fact they were just vaccinated

Doctor Alejandro Goic Goic death. News and COLMED (another chilean health branch provided by the United Nations), hid the fact he was just vaccinated

Doctor Audy Atay death. News and COLMED (another chilean health branch provided by the United Nations), hid the fact he was just vaccinated



Note: List is being currently populated so you can do your own research from these people's medical background.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> I can actually state the 60 people's names without any clinical diseases background so you can perform your own research instead of your totally trustable diarrhea sources.
> 
> Also you're still not proving deaths by vaccination, you're still quoting another disease without even knowing the last 60 chilean casualties. Are you a psychic?


If I cited 60 examples of people who died after playing Legends of Arceus, does that mean they died because they played the video game, or could it be the game had nothing to do with it even though a causal relationship can't be disproved?

When hundreds of millions of people get vaccinated, some of them are going to die in ways that were going to happen with or without the vaccine, and those numbers are going to add up. A causal relationship needs to actually be established, and you can at least begin to do that by checking if the frequency of any medical condition has increased. If you find one, you can see if there's any correlation between it and vaccination. If you find that, you might have found a side effect. This is called science.

It's amazing how many people here think that it's more likely than not that they're right and 99.9% of experts are wrong.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 7, 2022)

Lacius said:


> There has been no increase in the frequency of any medical condition, that hasn't already been attributed to something, since the vaccines became available. In other words, people are dying (and from the same things) at the rate that we would expect.



Except that lab report I linked shows greater frequency of cardiovascular death in those who took the vaccine than what is expected for them.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> I can actually state the 60 people's names without any clinical diseases background so you can perform your own research instead of your totally trustable diarrhea sources.
> 
> Also you're still not proving deaths by vaccination, you're still quoting another disease without even knowing the last 60 chilean casualties. Are you a psychic or plain simply lying to cover up these deaths?


“Also you're still not proving deaths by vaccination, you're still quoting another disease without even knowing the last 60 chilean casualties.”
Lol first step in critical thinking is can you answer ( with medical sources ) the exact question you pose
 You are just guessing on cause of death..
you are missing the fact the all 60 poeple also have drank water, breathed air .. so by you logic 60 people died by oxygen and hydrogen


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> I can actually state the 60 people's names without any clinical diseases background so you can perform your own research instead of your totally trustable diarrhea sources.
> 
> Also you're still not proving deaths by vaccination, you're still quoting another disease without even knowing the last 60 chilean casualties. Are you a psychic or plain simply lying to cover up these deaths?


you have yet to show actual proof that 60 deaths have Anything to do with the vaccine
Look at it this way, roughly number of deaths today are about 150,000 and since bout 60% of the population are vaccinated..that does not mean the vaccine caused 80000deaths.

https://www.worldometers.info/


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

djpannda said:


> you have yet to show actual proof that 60 deaths have Anything to do with the vaccine
> Look at it this way, roughly number of deaths today are about 150,000 and since bout 60% of the population are vaccinated..that does not mean the vaccine caused 80000deaths.
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/


You're still lying and trying to come up with other sources to back up your original claim:
"Can you provide actually medical reports stating that these are actual side effect of COVID vaccine?"

Yes I can and the names are being added as we speak so people can actually investigate each of these chilean's clean medical background and how these evolved to deaths or irreparable body malfunctions as they took the vaccine shots within weeks. Which is absolutely positive with what the Japanese research has shown a few posts back.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 7, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Except that lab report I linked shows greater frequency of cardiovascular death in those who took the vaccine than what is expected for them.


I tried really hard to verify the data in the "lab report" you cited (it wasn't actually a lab report), but I couldn't find anything. Everything I found showed the opposite to be true: There is no difference in non-COVID-19 mortality rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. There were also some major issues with your link, like when it tried to blame suicides on the vaccine and attempted to count those as vaccine deaths.

How likely do you think it is, on any random topic that you aren't an expert on, that you will be right and 99.9% of experts on that topic will be wrong? The answer should be "not very likely."


----------



## Lacius (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> You're still lying and trying to come up with other sources to back up your original claim:
> "Can you provide actually medical reports stating that these are actual side effect of COVID vaccine?"
> 
> Yes I can and the names are being added as we speak so people can actually investigate each of these chilean's clean medical background and how these evolved to deaths or irreparable body malfunctions as they took the vaccine shots within weeks. Which is absolutely positive with what the Japanese research has shown a few posts back.


It's sad when people die, particularly when they seem to be young/healthy and the death comes as a sudden shock. However, these kinds of deaths have always happened, and they appear to happen about as often as they did before vaccine availability. If you're going to argue there's a causal relationship between the vaccine and these (or any other) deaths, it needs to be demonstrated. I typed out a very rough template for how one could attempt to do that.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> You're still lying and trying to come up with other sources to back up your original claim:
> "Can you provide actually medical reports stating that these are actual side effect of COVID vaccine?"
> 
> Yes I can and the names are being added as we speak so people can actually investigate each of these chilean's clean medical background and how these evolved to deaths or irreparable body malfunctions as they took the vaccine shots within weeks. Which is absolutely positive with what the Japanese research has shown a few posts back.


Yet you still have not provided any actual proof

But let’s play your bias narrative
60 deaths you say  are because of the vaccine
Chile has a population of 19millon and vaccination rate of 92% (at least one shot)
Which means about 17.5million Vaccinated Chileans
*17.5million /60 = 0.0034% chance of death from Vaccine*

Compared to 2.34million Covid case in Chile and 39,930 Covid death
*2.34million /39,930 =1.7% chance of death..*
So ..Vaccine for everyone !

(But really we are talking about a country with a 92% vaccination rate
..60(non proved) death is statically nothing

*you have more chance of dying from ring worm 1,770 deaths *https://www.statista.com/statistics/1091037/chile-causes-death/#


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

djpannda said:


> Yet you still have not provided any actual proof
> 
> But let’s play your bias narrative
> 60 deaths you say  are because of the vaccine
> ...


You are trying to come up with math and guess games to prove your original point. I am posting chilean names so you, instead of lying and coming up with updated lies, can actually investigate each death and how the vaccine led them to their demise.

If a subject from the list wasn't vaccinated, maybe your maths could make sense. Because you're taking for granted a population of ~19million is being vaccinated, which is false.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> You are trying to come up with math and guess games to prove your original point. I am posting chilean names so you, instead of lying and coming up with updated lies, can actually investigate each death and how the vaccine led them to their demise.
> 
> If a subject from the list wasn't vaccinated, maybe your maths could make sense. Because you're taking for granted a population of 19million is being vaccinated, which is false.


Lol again you lack to post actually medical proof of your claim.. but only threaten to post the “name” of random people …

I understand math and statistics are too hard for you but. 0.0034% is smaller (a lot smaller) then 1.7%

Chilean deaths
_17.5million /60 = 0.0034% chance of death from Vaccine
2.34million /39,930 =1.7% chance of death from Covid virus_


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

djpannda said:


> Lol again you lack to post actually medical proof of you claim
> 
> I understand math and statistics are too hard for you
> 
> ...


prove 17 millions of chileans are vaccinated first, before you try to claim you're good at maths.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> prove 17 millions of chileans are vaccinated first, before you try to claim you're good at maths.




https://www.chile.travel/en/traveltochileplan/

lol so the Chilean Government is stating vaccination rate of 94.5%
12.4 million (18+)
Under 18not included in the number ..
Mind you I have Some family in *Santiago. *

Funny  I can provide you verifiable proof yet we having seen Annnnyyyything from you



Here’s the story how Chile was able to be one of the most vaccinated country https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8154192/

Chilean deaths
_17.5million /60(unproven) = 0.0034% chance of death from Vaccine
2.34million /39,930 =1.7% chance of death from Covid virus_


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

djpannda said:


> View attachment 297023https://www.chile.travel/en/traveltochileplan/
> 
> lol so the Chilean Government is stating vaccination rate of 94.5%
> 12.4 million (18+)
> ...


I'm giving you names, so if you have somebody, say the police (timespan death proof), to do the research for you, can actually prove what i'm saying is true.

Too bad you can't prove 17 millions of chileans are vaccinated. You're a faliure to maths. Because if you actually knew any of it, you'd know 17 millions used as base, would have been the vaccinated.

So yeah, i'm still updating the list names so people can actually do their own homework on his/her own.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> I'm giving you names, so if you have somebody, say the police (timespan death proof), to do the research for you, can actually prove what i'm saying is true.



Lol you giving names? I can give you meanless names also



Alotto Dix
Sookma Cok
Blum P. Jones
Phil Lashio
Finn Gurrer
Anne Al
Jee Spotte
Puce C.
Slou Paece
Finn Ischer
You can write any name you want but out medical proof of a vaccine sideffect it mean nothing..


Coto said:


> Too bad you can't prove 17 millions of chileans are vaccinated. You're a faliure to maths. Because if you actually knew any of it, you'd know 17 millions used as base, would have been the


Lol I just gave you Chilean offical vaccination rate.. are you trying to imply the Chilean Government and  medical field is lying?


https://www.chile.travel/en/traveltochileplan/

Chilean deaths
_17.5million /60(unproven) = 0.0034% chance of death from Vaccine
2.34million /39,930 =1.7% chance of death from Covid virus_


----------



## wurstpistole (Feb 7, 2022)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I'll take my chances with COVID.



Last seen Jun 2, 2021


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

wurstpistole said:


> Last seen Jun 2, 2021


Rip .
That or just a troll that got bored of being laughed at


----------



## Coto (Feb 7, 2022)

djpannda said:


> Lol you giving names? I can give you meanless names also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you failed to prove your original point and at the same time trying to hold up to your original claims?

List names i'm giving are the vaccination deaths in span of ~2 weeks with known background of no clinical issues whatsoever. If you actually know people from Santiago, ask them for the names i'm writing. Instead of making up random crap, like the maths you tried to do earlier.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 7, 2022)

Coto said:


> So you failed to prove your original point and at the same time trying to hold up to your original claims?
> 
> List names i'm giving are the vaccination deaths in span of ~2 weeks with known background of no clinical issues whatsoever. If you actually know people from Santiago, ask them for the names i'm writing. Instead of making up random crap, like the maths you tried to do earlier.


Funny another post without you providing anything…

  while we wait for you to post actual info  ( anything, other then threatening to post names lolol ) Please look at the offical Chilean vaccination rate of 94.5%



https://www.chile.travel/en/traveltochileplan/

Chilean deaths (updated 18+ Only)
_12.4 million /60(unproven) = 0.0048% chance of death from Vaccine
2.34million /39,930 =1.7% chance of death from Covid virus_


----------



## kekkius (Feb 7, 2022)

Probably last post from me.....in Italy they f**ked up really bad with statistics...before they said "COVID deaths", now after some people started asking questions about people died from cancer or incidents counted as COVID, they say "deaths with COVID" so yes government lies, let my personal experience tales continue....here every 20 hour of COVID jabbing a nurse and a doctor get the equivalent of 1 month of salary, for every person they count as COVID death they get 34 euro bonus, for every day you are in a hospital with COVID the hospital get 3000 euro and this is per person, COVID test are 15 euro each, and this is without the risk raise in their salary. If you talk with a doctor, COVID is bad, if you talk with a doctor that comes from your family, COVID is shit and is getting me rich....paid partes are not super partes( this is truth for everything), try to not believe everything someone says just because of "the experts", get a real life experience, you probably have a brain inside that head. This is not theory, this is my personal life experience, is not big data, but is still data.


Also a doctor friend of mine told me, if you get COVID wait until  the last day you can before getting jabbed, because here in the hospital there is a lot of SUDDEN ILLNESS that never happened before....but hey he is not an "expert".


----------



## tabzer (Feb 7, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I tried really hard to verify the data in the "lab report" you cited (it wasn't actually a lab report), but I couldn't find anything. Everything I found showed the opposite to be true: There is no difference in non-COVID-19 mortality rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. There were also some major issues with your link, like when it tried to blame suicides on the vaccine and attempted to count those as vaccine deaths.
> 
> How likely do you think it is, on any random topic that you aren't an expert on, that you will be right and 99.9% of experts on that topic will be wrong? The answer should be "not very likely."



The "lab's" report .

If you are saying that you found data showing that Japanese post-vac deaths have the same mortality cause rates as a control group, I would think you'd offer that source.

Also, the article addressed suspecting a connection between the vaccine and an accidental death isn't blaming suicides on the vaccine.  You did miss the part where it totally blamed the vaccine for the existence of gravity though. /s  

Rolling dice shouldn't be how someone determines if they are right or wrong.  What's up with the disingenuous band-wagoning attempt?  The %99.9 is just a club that kicks out dissent.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 7, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Also, the article addressed suspecting a connection between the vaccine and an accidental death isn't blaming suicides on the vaccine.


Baselessly suspecting that the COVID-19 vaccine causes suicides is conspiratorial garbage.


----------



## zxr750j (Feb 7, 2022)

Lonelyness will raise suicides, it's a crappy time to be depressed...

I wrote a whole story and deleted it, people seem to be blind to reason sometimes (information trap?).


----------



## tabzer (Feb 7, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Baselessly suspecting that the COVID-19 vaccine causes suicides is conspiratorial garbage.


If "the COVID-19 vaccine causes suicide".  Those are only your words--nobody else's.

What part of it is conspiratorial?  

Frankly, you are just having a shitty attitude.

Japan recorded fewer deaths in 2020 for first time in 11 years


----------



## Lacius (Feb 7, 2022)

tabzer said:


> If "the COVID-19 vaccine causes suicide".  Those are only your words--nobody else's.


I didn't say that. I said, "Baselessly suspecting that the COVID-19 vaccine causes suicides is conspiratorial garbage."



tabzer said:


> What part of it is conspiratorial?


Conspiracy theories generally involve baseless conjecture, by definition.



tabzer said:


> Japan recorded fewer deaths in 2020 for first time in 11 years


"The smaller total may be linked to a sharp fall in seasonal influenza infections as people took strict infection prevention measures, including wearing face masks and washing their hands, amid the novel coronavirus pandemic."

Lol.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> "The smaller total *may be *linked to a sharp fall in seasonal influenza infections as people took strict infection prevention measures, including wearing face masks and washing their hands, amid the novel coronavirus pandemic."



Watch out.  Somebody found "the science".

If only it could be replicated with similar results. 



Lacius said:


> Conspiracy theories generally involve baseless conjecture, by definition.



Step 1: I don't like this study
Step 2: Rephrase an unrelated part of it to say something different and stupid.
Step 3: Call it conspiratorial because it sounds stupid.
Step 4: Debonked.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Step 1: I don't like this study
> Step 2: Rephrase an unrelated part of it to say something different and stupid.
> Step 3: Call it conspiratorial because it sounds stupid.
> Step 4: Debonked.


Step 1. Don't respond to the point that was addressed and deflect.
Step 2.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Step 1. Don't respond to the point that was addressed and deflect.
> Step 2.




I've seen this somewhere.





There it is.

Now that we are on the same page.  Please show your stats that contradict what the study reports.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I've seen this somewhere.
> 
> View attachment 297217
> 
> ...


The point that you aren't addressing is that it's baseless conjecture. You haven't substantively responded to that point.

It isn't my job to show a suicide definitely wasn't cause by the vaccine. It's the article's job to show the vaccine had anything to do with it.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The point that you aren't addressing is that it's baseless conjecture. You haven't substantively responded to that point.
> 
> It isn't my job to show a suicide definitely wasn't cause by the vaccine. It's the article's job to show the vaccine had anything to do with it.


What you said was out of context and a contortion of what was actually said in the report.  I agree that what you said is baseless conjecture.  It's not my job to do the reading for you.

Upon taking the vaccine, someone starts acting erratic.  It's natural to have a suspicion of a connection, which as the article states, is all it is.  It even provides previous medical situations as a basis for why such a consideration is made.  It's no one's argument that vaccines cause suicides.  Nobody is "boosting" vaccine death stats with suicides (Can't speak for the Americans, though). Stop being a shit.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> What you said was out of context and a contortion of what was actually said in the report.


No it wasn't. They baselessly speculated that the vaccine caused a suicide. In the absence of evidence, that's no better than a ridiculous conspiracy theory.



tabzer said:


> Upon taking the vaccine, someone starts acting erratic.  It's natural to have a suspicion of a connection, which as the article states, is all it is.


You can investigate a connection, but it's irrational to suspect a connection in the absence of evidence.



tabzer said:


> It even provides previous medical situations as a basis for why such a consideration is made.


It only provided baseless claims.



tabzer said:


> It's no one's argument that vaccines cause suicides.


The article suggests the vaccines may have caused a suicide, but as I've already said, this is unsubstantiated garbage.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> No it wasn't.


Yes it was.



Lacius said:


> You can investigate a connection, but it's irrational to suspect a connection in the absence of evidence.


Limited contextual and observational evidence of psychosis was the same evidence to support febrile delirium.  The keyword is "suspected" and the word was selected intentionally.  "Connection" also was selected intentionally as to not infer direct cause.

You are literally mucking about the English language to intentionally mudsling a study that you have no other options in debunking.  Quit practicing "the science" as a religion and admit you don't know, instead of making statements of having contradicting evidence that you clearly have no intention of providing.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 8, 2022)

I guess math scared off the other guy…weird most of them stay quiet when presented with actual facts…
I still waiting for him to provide a list of 60 random name

Chilean deaths (updated 18+ Only)
_12.4 million /60(unproven) = 0.0048% chance of death from Vaccine
2.34million /39,930 =1.7% chance of death from Covid virus_


----------



## ghjfdtg (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> "The smaller total may be linked to a sharp fall in seasonal influenza infections as people took strict infection prevention measures, including wearing face masks and washing their hands, amid the novel coronavirus pandemic."
> 
> Lol.


Yep, that's a world wide trend. Flu cases have gone down rapidly since the pandemic. Considering this it's probably not a bad idea to keep precautions when we reach endemic and beyond.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Limited contextual and observational evidence of psychosis was the same evidence to support febrile delirium.


Lack of evidence for one thing is not evidence for another thing. Using words like "suspected" doesn't make a claim any less baseless, irresponsible, or idiotic.

I could be "suspecting" that Legends of Arceus causes brain aneurysms, and I'd be just as foolish.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

ghjfdtg said:


> Yep, that's a world wide trend. Flu cases have gone down rapidly since the pandemic. Considering this it's probably not a bad idea to keep precautions when we reach endemic and beyond.


Regardless of what happens to mask-wearing, etc., I hope some things never go back to normal. For example, I never want to shake hands ever again. It was always a stupid and unhygienic custom.


----------



## KingVamp (Feb 8, 2022)

ghjfdtg said:


> Yep, that's a world wide trend. Flu cases have gone down rapidly since the pandemic. Considering this it's probably not a bad idea to keep precautions when we reach endemic and beyond.


Maybe plastic dividers where they make sense, but I doubt much is going to change even among the people that care, outside something like covid. 



Lacius said:


> Regardless of what happens to mask-wearing, etc., I hope some things never go back to normal. For example, I never want to shake hands ever again. It was always a stupid and unhygienic custom.


Lol I mean, it happens, but not enough for me to get mad/frustrated about it. Maybe you prefer the fist bump, elbow bump or even the foot shake?


----------



## tabzer (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Lack of evidence for one thing is not evidence for another thing.



That's not even what it says, weirdo.   Psychosis and febrile delirium have similar observable qualities. 

Something happened.  What caused it?

*in jumps inspector Lacius*

"Whatever it is, it'd be irrational to consider vaccines!"

You can't be a real person.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> That's not even what it says, weirdo.


I was responding to what you said, weirdo, not what the paper said. Please keep up.



tabzer said:


> Psychosis and  have similar observable qualities.


There was no evidence provided that it was febrile delirium, let alone that it could have been febrile delirium.

Baselessly suggesting a suicide might have been caused by the vaccine is laughably absurd anti-vax propaganda. You might as well be suggesting that vaccines might cause autism.



tabzer said:


> Something happened.  What caused it?


Asking this question is fine, but paper didn't stop here. It suggested it may have been caused by the vaccine, but it did so without evidence that this happened or was even possible.

EDIT: Sorry, forget everything I said. The article flat out claims, baselessly, that the vaccine in fact caused the suicide.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Limited contextual and observational evidence of psychosis was the same evidence to support febrile delirium.





Lacius said:


> Lack of evidence for one thing is not evidence for another thing.





tabzer said:


> That's not even what it says, weirdo. Psychosis and febrile delirium have similar observable qualities.





Lacius said:


> I was responding to what you said, weirdo, not what the paper said. Please keep up.



Look up.  It's not what the paper says nor what I said.  Just shut up.



Lacius said:


> There was no evidence provided that it was febrile delirium



There's no evidence that you are presenting a rational train of thought.  Are you ok?



Lacius said:


> EDIT: Sorry, forget everything I said. The article flat out claims, baselessly, that the vaccine in fact caused the suicide.


Quote it.

Still waiting on the contradictory evidence that you say that exists.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Look up.  It's not what the paper says nor what I said.  Just shut up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Limited contextual and observational evidence of psychosis was the same evidence to support febrile delirium" means "limited evidence for psychosis is evidence for an alternative explanation." If you meant something else, then you need to do a better job constructing your posts.

"It was reported that he completed suicide due to psychosis. However, actually he accidentally died following abnormal behavior due to febrile delirium after vaccination."


----------



## ital (Feb 8, 2022)

Covid proved that people are very, very stupid and remarkably easily influenced to believe things that may or may not be to their benefit. 

Amazingly either side can apply this thought to the other side (aka "the bad guys") and be totally correct whilst remaining totally oblivious of its implications. 

You've got to laugh.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

ital said:


> Covid proved that people are very, very stupid and remarkably easily influenced to believe things that may or may not be to their benefit.
> 
> Amazingly either side can apply this thought to the other side (aka "the bad guys") and be totally correct whilst remaining totally oblivious of its implications.
> 
> You've got to laugh.


~90% of the thousands of Americans dying daily of COVID-19 are unvaccinated, so it's pretty easy to tell where the stupidity lies.


----------



## ital (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> ~90% of the thousands of Americans dying daily of COVID-19 are unvaccinated, so it's pretty easy to tell where the stupidity lies.



And they'd probably express a similar sentiment about your thought process. Thats the point of my statement so think a little harder before replying next time. 

I personally have no three legged mule in this race either way but do enjoy psychological pontification from up here on my high horse.







And with that, he's gone!


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

ital said:


> And they'd probably express a similar sentiment about your thought process. Thats the point of my statement so think a little harder before replying next time.


And my point was that it's clear who's right and who's wrong. These are scientifically quantifiable facts we are dealing with, and it would be a mistake to suggest both sides are equally correct or equally wrong. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but they don't have a right to their own facts.

People making good points typically don't have to get catty.


----------



## ital (Feb 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> And my point was that it's clear who's right and who's wrong. These are scientifically quantifiable facts we are dealing with, and it would be a mistake to suggest both sides are equally correct or equally wrong. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but they don't have a right to their own facts.
> 
> People making good points typically don't have to get catty.


I've already used up my forum patience for the month so am a bit more curt than usual.

In response I'll direct you to check out the issue with the replication crisis and why science isn't all its cracked up to be. Especially where it intersects with big business, public opinion and mass media as that makes it all the murkier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opi...it-comes-to-scientific-studies-thats-often-a/

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/21504366/science-replication-crisis-peer-review-statistics

Like I said, I don't care about this one way or the other nor the people crusading against the other side as I see a much larger picture that transcends these petty polarities and need to be right in anothers eyes/validated for their choice. Both of them don't know what they're talking about as each is using unreliable information sources that often flat out contradict reality as it stands or is edited to push a narrative.

No need to respond. I won't be replying but I do encourage you to think.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

ital said:


> I've already used up my forum patience for the month so am a bit more curt than usual.
> 
> In response I'll direct you to check out the issue with the replication crisis and why science isn't all its cracked up to be. Especially where it intersects with big business, public opinion and mass media as that makes it all the murkier.
> 
> ...


I'm well aware of the replication crisis in science. The good news is, with the publicity that COVID-19 has, there is no replication crisis when it comes to repeating experiments relating to COVID-19, vaccine efficacy, vaccine safety, etc.

Even if the above weren't true, acknowledging the replication crisis isn't itself a refutation of any specific scientific claim.

I encourage you to research your points before posting, since your last post ended up being wholly irrelevant to the topic.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 8, 2022)

ital said:


> And they'd probably express a similar sentiment about your thought process. Thats the point of my statement so think a little harder before replying next time.
> 
> I personally have no three legged mule in this race either way but do enjoy psychological pontification from up here on my high horse.
> 
> ...


2+2=4 period.
no matter how loud they scream that its the answer 5, the earth is flat, vaccines are carry tracking chips, The JFK and JFK JR are  alive ( and Republican) , Obama is a not born American, or Russia is better then the US.

People need to stop cuddling snowflake Conspiracy Theorist and People who "Hint" Racial superiority. Not "correcting" them allows them to think their right..
The Reason Nazi were parading in FL last week in the open, was because it has been a while since someone "Punched a Nazi in the face"


----------



## Glyptofane (Feb 8, 2022)

djpannda said:


> People need to stop cuddling snowflake Conspiracy Theorist and People who "Hint" Racial superiority. Not "correcting" them allows them to think their right..


You're behind the times. It's actually our blood that is superior to yours and this includes the majority of black people refusing the vaccine. I unapologetically and proudly stand with BLM and my fellow black Purebloods on this particular issue.


----------



## djpannda (Feb 8, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> You're behind the times. It's actually our blood that is superior to yours and this includes the majority of black people refusing the vaccine. I unapologetically and proudly stand with BLM and my fellow black Purebloods on this particular issue.


= People who "Hint" Racial superiority


----------



## Lacius (Feb 8, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> and this includes the majority of black people refusing the vaccine.


A majority of Black people have received at least one dose of the vaccine in the United States.


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 8, 2022)

How is this thread still going lol? How is the “COVID state of emergency” still going? We’re on Year 2 of 2 weeks to stop the spread, this is getting a little silly.

As far as I’m concerned, we’re 2 years down the line. There’s nothing “emergent” about the COVID “emergency” - vaccines are readily available and effective. Anyone interested in one should schedule a jab, otherwise we should all get on with our lives. It’s time for business as usual, especially considering the supremely low mortality rate associated with Omicron. There’s absolutely no point in continuing any of the restrictions - I’m told that the majority of people dying from COVID are unvaccinated, so as far as I’m concerned that was their choice (since they have a right to choose, same as with any other medical procedure), by the same token so are the consequences of that choice. Any thinly-veiled excuse along the lines of “stopping the spread”  or “preventing mutation” is a ship that has sailed a good year ago - COVID is on track for becoming endemic and judging by the statistics there’s nothing the federal government, or anybody else for that matter, can do about it. It’s just not going to work, mitigation has failed, on a global scale - I’m okay with that.

I’m done, personally. There’s only so many “cares” I can give about a, for the most part, preventable disease. If people want to risk it, God bless’em. If they want to get jabbed, better still. I’ve stopped caring what people do about it in their personal lives, and I didn’t care much to begin with - at this point I only care about a return to relative normalcy and lifting any and all restrictions. They seem counterproductive at this stage and achieve nothing in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 9, 2022)

I'd agree with you if not for the fact that not all countries (and not all of us citizen, for that matter) have a care-level of 0 for our healthcare being overflowed again by people with the preventable (as you rightly stated) disease. We've seen enough people die of unrelated things for not being able to be treated because of overflowing covid cases, I'm done with that kind of thing for my part. So I'll wait for data showing this is not happening anymore (which is not the case in my birth country nor in my home country currently afaik) before being reckless, thank you


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 9, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> I'd agree with you if not for the fact that not all countries (and not all of us citizen, for that matter) have a care-level of 0 for our healthcare being overflowed again by people with the preventable (as you rightly stated) disease. We've seen enough people die of unrelated things for not being able to be treated because of overflowing covid cases, I'm done with that kind of thing for my part. So I'll wait for data showing this is not happening anymore (which is not the case in my birth country nor in my home country currently afaik) before being reckless, thank you


It is not being overflowed - it’s designed to run at capacity, and that’s what it’s doing. Hospital utilisation rate has remained pretty stagnant for years, in spite of any pandemics or other assorted disasters, natural or otherwise. There hasn’t been a year when ICU beds weren’t “critically short”.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/185904/hospital-occupancy-rate-in-the-us-since-2001/

This graph shows hospital occupancy rates between 1975 and 2019 - the rate is around 65% every single year. Do you know what it was in 2020? Have a wild guess. The system is *designed* to have an occupancy rate of around 65-75% on average, and that’s pretty much what it was. Having staffed beds sit idle throughout the year is waste, that’s why they’re short in supply, not because of any pandemic. In fact, the trend over the years was shutting hospitals down due to a *decrease* in demand. My local hospitals are almost completely vacant at this point since there was an increase of COVID patients, but an overall decrease in just about every other kind of patient there is since everyone’s masking and sitting at home unless absolutely necessary. They’re doing just fine.

Of course that means that sometimes patients need to be treated out of state, but that’s hardly a big deal. It is not uncommon to see occupancy rates in a given state hit numbers above 100% momentarily - that doesn’t mean that hospitals shove two patients into one bed, or multiply beds with magic. They simply find other means of care, including sending them elsewhere.

There’s that, and also the fact that I don’t particularly care if they were overflowing. For all I care, they can strap new beds to the ceiling. The capacity can be at 200% and I’d care equally little if I’m being inconvenienced for two years over something everyone can take a jab against, for free. We’re done, I’ve moved on.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 9, 2022)

They have beds.  They have space.  The primary determinant of capacity is the amount of hired staff on duty (whom they fired after the last wave).

That being said, everyone should be aware that going to the hospital while having Covid dramatically increases your odds of dying.

"science"


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 9, 2022)

tabzer said:


> They have beds.  They have space.  The primary determinant of capacity is the amount of hired staff on duty (whom they fired after the last wave).
> 
> That being said, everyone should be aware that going to the hospital while having Covid dramatically increases your odds of dying.
> 
> "science"


This applies to every disease. It’s an old joke - “I don’t want to go to the hospital, that’s where people go to die”. That doesn’t mean hospitals kill people, the correlation is real because people in hospitals are severely ill, that’s why they’re in the hospital in the first place, they’re liable to die more so than gen pop. It’s the equivalent of saying “I’ll walk to the store instead of driving, the road is where people die”. Yeah, no shit - your odds of having a traffic accident decrease drastically when you’re not participating in traffic. Use your noggin.


----------



## tabzer (Feb 9, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> This applies to every disease. It’s an old joke - “I don’t want to go to the hospital, that’s where people go to die”. That doesn’t mean hospitals kill people, the correlation is real because people in hospitals are severely ill, that’s why they’re in the hospital in the first place, they’re liable to die more so than gen pop. It’s the equivalent of saying “I’ll walk to the store instead of driving, the road is where people die”. Yeah, no shit - your odds of having a traffic accident decrease drastically when you’re not participating in traffic. Use your noggin.


I was being somewhat facetious.  But there is a point that if you hang out in a disease-ridden queue for a test, you might wind up with the disease that you are in queue for.  Hospital waiting rooms are a risky place to be.

Really, can't say that the hospital protocol treatment killed people or not due to the lack of alternative to compare to.  Seemed like when we ran out of ventilators, things started getting better.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 9, 2022)

Lacius said:


> A majority of Black people have received at least one dose of the vaccine in the United States.


Do note, that user is an exposed Neo-Nazi


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 9, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I was being somewhat facetious.  But there is a point that if you hang out in a disease-ridden queue for a test, you might wind up with the disease that you are in queue for.  Hospital waiting rooms are a risky place to be.
> 
> Really, can't say that the hospital protocol treatment killed people or not due to the lack of alternative to compare to.  Seemed like when we ran out of ventilators, things started getting better.


When I went for a test, I was sitting in a car with the windows almost all the way up. I had no contact with anyone at all - I was given a test in a sealed envelope through a thin gap in the window, by an employee in full PPE, and that’s how the bag was collected when my test was complete. In fact, they didn’t even touch the bag once it was filled with my sample, it went directly into a biohazard container. Then again, that speaks to the testing methodology in Wales, not in the U.S., but overall if anyone needs a PCR done, I suggest the drive-through.


----------



## Doina (Feb 20, 2022)

Thanks for sharing!!!


----------



## Glyptofane (Feb 20, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Do note, that user is an exposed Neo-Nazi


And yet it's you guys who turned out to be literal fascists while calling other people nazis. Go figure.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 20, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> And yet it's you guys who turned out to be literal fascists while calling other people nazis. Go figure.


What do you think _fascism_ is?


----------



## Glyptofane (Feb 20, 2022)

Lacius said:


> What do you think _fascism_ is?


The merging of state and corporate power with apparently quite a few witless, mentally ill toadies cheering it on.


----------



## Marc_LFD (Feb 20, 2022)

I don't get why this thread has over 170 pages.

Medical information is private and if some have "pride" in sharing it, okay, but it's still none of your, mine or anyone's business about it. What's next, people sharing their bank account info? Come on.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 20, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> It is not being overflowed - it’s designed to run at capacity, and that’s what it’s doing. Hospital utilisation rate has remained pretty stagnant for years, in spite of any pandemics or other assorted disasters, natural or otherwise. There hasn’t been a year when ICU beds weren’t “critically short”.
> 
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/185904/hospital-occupancy-rate-in-the-us-since-2001/
> 
> ...


Funny how you'd reply with a post about system*s* (plural), from a fellow european with only one example from the other side of the pond. Doesn't add much value. Yes that may be how it happens on your side, it's not necessarily generalizable everywhere. And the simple fact that we get over the designed capacity (which is a function of both space and number of healthcare workers available) shows there is a problem, which is arguably both with the design itself and the numbers reached in strong epidemic and pandemic times.
They're not "doing just fine" everywhere, you being so blindly focused on the US doesn't chance that fact.


----------



## The Catboy (Feb 20, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> And yet it's you guys who turned out to be literal fascists while calling other people nazis. Go figure.


First, I am an Anarchist and wish to dismantle the state. I also do not wish for a military state based on extreme nationalism. As well, can you quote where any of us (besides you,) have posted anything related to propagating “literal fascism.” You have a history posting neo-Nazi and white nationalist propaganda, slogans, and conspiracies. You’ve literally posted the fascist conspiracy of “White Genocide.” You don’t have any grounds to call anyone else a fascist.


----------



## steamcheapcom (Feb 20, 2022)

soon


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 20, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> Funny how you'd reply with a post about system*s* (plural), from a fellow european with only one example from the other side of the pond. Doesn't add much value. Yes that may be how it happens on your side, it's not necessarily generalizable everywhere. And the simple fact that we get over the designed capacity (which is a function of both space and number of healthcare workers available) shows there is a problem, which is arguably both with the design itself and the numbers reached in strong epidemic and pandemic times.
> They're not "doing just fine" everywhere, you being so blindly focused on the US doesn't chance that fact.


You’re right, it’s a different virus across the pond - speaks with an accent.


----------



## RocaBOT (Feb 21, 2022)

That's not what I said, you're being very sassy today


----------



## Milenko (Feb 21, 2022)

Why is this godawful thread still open


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 21, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> That's not what I said, you're being very sassy today


I’m just happy to see the light at the end of the tunnel, at least as far as the UK is concerned. More and more restrictions are being lifted in Britain, so I have good reasons to celebrate - about time.


----------



## KingVamp (Feb 21, 2022)

So, are we just going to close all covid threads?


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 21, 2022)

KingVamp said:


> So, are we just going to close all covid threads?


Once COVID is no longer relevant I suspect the threads will die down naturally. If they become a dumping ground for spam, like the election threads before, then they might get shuttered. It depends - I have a lot of fancy gear, but a functioning crystal ball isn’t part of my tool set.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Feb 21, 2022)

We have February the 21st 2022.
In December 2021,Novavax (allegedly available since today, February 21st, 2022..) and Valneva applied for EMA approval...
Why is this taking so long......?

Biontech/Pfizer:
EMA Application - November 30st 2020 
EMA Approval - December 21st 2020

3 Weeks.....


----------



## KingVamp (Feb 21, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> Once COVID is no longer relevant I suspect the threads will die down naturally. If they become a dumping ground for spam, like the election threads before, then they might get shuttered. It depends - I have a lot of fancy gear, but a functioning crystal ball isn’t part of my tool set.


That's interesting, but this was directed at people saying "why are these threads still open" at every covid thread.


----------



## plasturion (Feb 21, 2022)

as long the "vaccines" are relevant to T-receptors is ok to bump it up.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/OpePUaK78tqI/


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 21, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> More and more restrictions are being lifted in Britain


Yeah, just in time to get killed by a falling tree, or drown in a flood. I swear it's never-ending.


----------



## Foxi4 (Feb 21, 2022)

KingVamp said:


> That's interesting, but this was directed at people saying "why are these threads still open" at every covid thread.


I was under the impression that you’re asking me, considering I was the only person in the thread capable of doing so at the time. My mistake, I suppose.


subcon959 said:


> Yeah, just in time to get killed by a falling tree, or drown in a flood. I swear it's never-ending.


Welcome to Silent Hill - we have rain, fog and gate force winds.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 21, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> Welcome to Silent Hill


Funny because that's exactly what I thought driving around Bolton last Saturday. Sudden snow storm and visibility dropped to nothing.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 21, 2022)

Naughty CDC... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/20/health/covid-cdc-data.html


----------



## KingVamp (Feb 22, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I was under the impression that you’re asking me, considering I was the only person in the thread capable of doing so at the time. My mistake, I suppose.
> 
> Welcome to Silent Hill - we have rain, fog and gate force winds.


Lol No problem.


----------



## subcon959 (Feb 22, 2022)

So it finally got me. My son brought it back from school so there was no way to avoid it. He kicked it in 3 days, but didn't get out of bed for 2 of those due to fever and body aches.

I'm on the vulnerable list so let's see if the 3 shots I had do their job. So far, I have a fever and cough with a weird rustling noise in my lungs when I breathe. Mostly sucks because I'm a carer so it's gonna affect other people too.


----------



## Lacius (Feb 22, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> So it finally got me. My son brought it back from school so there was no way to avoid it. He kicked it in 3 days, but didn't get out of bed for 2 of those due to fever and body aches.
> 
> I'm on the vulnerable list so let's see if the 3 shots I had do their job. So far, I have a fever and cough with a weird rustling noise in my lungs when I breathe. Mostly sucks because I'm a carer so it's gonna affect other people too.


Get well soon.


----------



## Pacheko17 (Feb 24, 2022)

Yes because I'm not an absolute baffoon that believes what their stupid politicians and whatever their uncle on WhatsApp says.

They've all been tested and have been made fast because medicine is now better and this is a worldwide pandemic. If only it had come sooner, I might not have lost my uncle.

I got both doses of Pfizer and will get the booster next month. Absolutely no side-effects besides a sore-arm for 2 days.


----------



## Pacheko17 (Feb 24, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> So it finally got me. My son brought it back from school so there was no way to avoid it. He kicked it in 3 days, but didn't get out of bed for 2 of those due to fever and body aches.
> 
> I'm on the vulnerable list so let's see if the 3 shots I had do their job. So far, I have a fever and cough with a weird rustling noise in my lungs when I breathe. Mostly sucks because I'm a carer so it's gonna affect other people too.


God bless mate, get well soon.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Feb 24, 2022)

I recently got my Pfizer booster shot and all I got was a very mild fever that only lasted for a couple of hours and a sore arm for 1-2 days.


----------



## subcon959 (Mar 8, 2022)

For those waiting for peer-reviewed study.. the data is in for Ivermectin and might just prove to be one of the biggest scandals in history.

https://www.cureus.com/articles/821...3128-subjects-using-propensity-score-matching

Read the whole thing if you have time (it's very readable compared to most studes), but the gist of it is..



> Of the 223,128 citizens of Itajaí considered for the study, *a total of 159,561 subjects were included in the analysis*: 113,845 (71.3%) regular ivermectin users and 45,716 (23.3%) non-users. Of these, 4,311 ivermectin users were infected, among which 4,197 were from the city of Itajaí (3.7% infection rate), and 3,034 non-users (from Itajaí) were infected (6.6% infection rate), with a *44% reduction in COVID-19 infection rate* (risk ratio [RR], 0.56; 95% confidence interval (95% CI), 0.53-0.58; p < 0.0001). Using PSM, two cohorts of 3,034 subjects suffering from COVID-19 infection were compared. *The regular use of ivermectin led to a 68% reduction in COVID-19 mortality* (25 [0.8%] versus 79 [2.6%] among ivermectin non-users; RR, 0.32; 95% CI, 0.20-0.49; p < 0.0001). *When adjusted for residual variables, reduction in mortality rate was 70%* (RR, 0.30; 95% CI, 0.19-0.46; p < 0.0001). There was a 56% reduction in hospitalization rate (44 versus 99 hospitalizations among ivermectin users and non-users, respectively; RR, 0.44; 95% CI, 0.31-0.63; p < 0.0001). *After adjustment for residual variables, reduction in hospitalization rate was 67%* (RR, 0.33; 95% CI, 023-0.66; p < 0.0001).



Remember, this is basically the same conclusion that was being made by some from the start yet the mainstream was strangely dismissive of (to the point of calling it horse de-wormer).

With a 70% reduction in mortality rate, imagine how many people's lives could've been saved if they had been given this dirt cheap drug as a preventative measure along with vaccinations once available.


----------



## Valwinz (Mar 8, 2022)

Funny how Covid seems to have just disappear how odd


----------



## Lacius (Mar 8, 2022)

Valwinz said:


> Funny how Covid seems to have just disappear how odd


Tell that to the approximately 1,500 Americans, mostly unvaccinated, dying each day from COVID-19.


----------



## Valwinz (Mar 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Tell that to the approximately 1,500 Americans, mostly unvaccinated, dying each day from COVID-19.


over here they remove all restrictions and even the be vaccinated to go places so i guess they no longer care about that


----------



## Lacius (Mar 8, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> For those waiting for peer-reviewed study.. the data is in for Ivermectin and might just prove to be one of the biggest scandals in history.
> 
> https://www.cureus.com/articles/821...3128-subjects-using-propensity-score-matching
> 
> ...


This was addressed months ago:
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...brazil-ivermectin-covid-19-prevention-flawed/



Valwinz said:


> over here they remove all restrictions and even the be vaccinated to go places so i guess they no longer care about that


In the United States, restrictions are still recommended in areas with high rates of transmission. In addition, the current recommendation is still for people to get vaccinated regardless of the transmission rate in one's area.


----------



## ital (Mar 8, 2022)

Valwinz said:


> Funny how Covid seems to have just disappear how odd



The Emperor ran away before the little boy spoke the truth about his New Clothes to the vaccinated too loudly.

Can't interrupt the money train!


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 8, 2022)

European countries lifting any and all restrictions for electoral reasons does not mean they're right or that the thing is any less present or dangerous. You'd be well to all remember that.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 8, 2022)

-


----------



## Foxi4 (Mar 8, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> European countries lifting any and all restrictions for electoral reasons does not mean they're right or that the thing is any less present or dangerous. You'd be well to all remember that.


Omicron simply does not warrant keeping the restrictions in place. Studies show that the risk of hospitalisation is 50% lower and the risk of death 91% lower compared to Delta. The new variant accounts for the overwhelming majority of cases and some argue that it’s actually one of the many pathways out of the pandemic since the majority of patients infected with Omicron suffer from symptoms no worse than the average cold while the natural immunity gained in the process of recovering from the infection protects them from other, more deadly variants.

https://time.com/6141679/omicron-end-covid-19/

England has effectively removed all restrictions, including the self-isolation requirement, opting instead to urge the public to practice safe behaviours and stress the importance of hygiene. After an initial spike in cases, which was to be expected, the number of deaths is steadily decreasing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ay-safe-as-covid-19-england-restrictions-lift




That’s not an endorsement of complacency, but ultimately we need to return to normalcy at some point - you have to weigh the risks and benefits. The UK is reaching a point where the drawbacks of a strictly controlled lockdown simply outweigh its benefits. This has absolutely nothing to do with elections and everything to do with data.


----------



## WiiMiiSwitch (Mar 8, 2022)

This thread has existed for too long.
Either Take it or don't


----------



## tabzer (Mar 8, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Tell that to the approximately 1,500 Americans, mostly unvaccinated, dying each day from COVID-19.


oh that's a load of horse-paste.


----------



## Foxi4 (Mar 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> oh that's a load of horse-paste.


Across the entirety of the U.S. the 7-day average sits almost precisely at 1.5K, so he’s not wrong.


----------



## Valwinz (Mar 8, 2022)

never got the vaccines and it seems i won't need to since all restrictions here is been removed


----------



## Glyptofane (Mar 8, 2022)

Valwinz said:


> Funny how Covid seems to have just disappear how odd


Covid's out, war is in, almost as if by the flip of a switch.


----------



## Lacius (Mar 8, 2022)

tabzer said:


> oh that's a load of horse-paste.


I'm sorry if the facts are inconvenient for you.



Valwinz said:


> never got the vaccines and it seems i won't need to since all restrictions here is been removed


The vaccine is still highly recommended, regardless of whether or not you're affected by a mandate.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 9, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I'm sorry if the facts are inconvenient for you.
> 
> 
> The vaccine is still highly recommended, regardless of whether or not you're affected by a mandate.


You are free to believe in the CDC, but "facts" are neither here nor there.  America has among the worst propaganda.  Covid "related" deaths.


----------



## SG854 (Mar 9, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You are free to believe in the CDC, but "facts" are neither here nor there.  America has among the worst propaganda.  Covid "related" deaths.


Everything the CDC has ever said is a lie. Don't believe them, viva la revolution.


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Mar 9, 2022)

Pacheko17 said:


> Yes because I'm not an absolute baffoon that believes what their stupid politicians and whatever their uncle on WhatsApp says.
> 
> They've all been tested and have been made fast because medicine is now better and this is a worldwide pandemic. If only it had come sooner, I might not have lost my uncle.
> 
> I got both doses of Pfizer and will get the booster next month. Absolutely no side-effects besides a sore-arm for 2 days.


The mRNA vaccine stuff is actually pretty damn cool when you look into it more. Its been something they have been tinkering with for awhile now but utilized a version for it to use as a C19 vaccine. I really want to see what they can do with it on more dangerous stuff like HIV which they have been tossing the concept around for awhile now.


----------



## Hanafuda (Mar 9, 2022)

Good article,  if you can get around the NYTimes registration wall.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/briefing/covid-precautions-red-blue-states.html


----------



## Cylent1 (Mar 9, 2022)

WHY?  Why does this thread exist for?
Who cares who gets it and doesn't.  
This is a Dividing post no better than racism!  Shame on you!


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 9, 2022)

Oh wow the fallacious comparisons get thrown faster than thunder here. Though last time it was with nazis, so I guess it's "less worse"? Still not making any proper point though :/


----------



## tabzer (Mar 10, 2022)




----------



## The Catboy (Mar 10, 2022)

tabzer said:


>



Well at least you are finally realizing that the anti-vax movement is a joke


----------



## tabzer (Mar 10, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Well at least you are finally realizing that the anti-vax movement is a joke


First, that's not what is being communicated, and second, people have reason to distrust American productions.  Anti-anti-vax is the joke.  Trying to tell people what medical choices they should make is literally outside of the scope of this forum.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 10, 2022)

tabzer said:


> First, that's not what is being communicated, and second, people have reason to distrust American productions.  Anti-anti-vax is the joke.  Trying to tell people what medical choices they should make is literally outside of the scope of this forum.


When a group of people actively harm their community, we should treat them like a threat. The same should be said of people willfully spreading a virus. I am not telling people to get vaccinated, I am calling those against vaccination a joke and a hazard to other people. Equally, I am calling Russell Brand a joke because he’s just a comedian spreading conspiracies. I am also calling you a joke because you are a joke


----------



## ital (Mar 10, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Funny how all the hullaballoo about the "world-ending" virus went away once the media found something even more profitable to focus on for fearmongering and views: Russia invading Ukraine. Only this time, there's actually something to be concerned about.



No point in mentioning that round here in NPC land as it just wooshes over their heads.

Even when the mainstream news sources are saying what those who can see through the narrative long suspected they still won't think:




In the Pfizer trials, more people died in the vaccine group than in the placebo group, and it takes 22,000 vaccines to save one life from COVID.

Steve Kirsch: "So you killed 150,000 in order to maybe save 10,000 lives."

Pennsylvania State Senate COVID-19 Panel (Full Video):
*Snip*

Thousands of bleating posts in this thread serve as testimony to the proof of Suport The Current Thing thinking that is rife these days.

Edit: Link redirects infinitely, removed. Provide correct link. -Foxi4


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 10, 2022)

ital said:


> In the Pfizer trials, more people died in the vaccine group than in the placebo group, and it takes 22,000 vaccines to save one life from COVID.
> 
> Steve Kirsch: "So you killed 150,000 in order to maybe save 10,000 lives."


Source beyond sketchy links?


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 10, 2022)

-


----------



## ital (Mar 10, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Source beyond sketchy links?


The first link is from the Moderna CEO speaking on FOX News, the second is the Pennsylvania State Senate hosted by Senator Doug Mastriano.

How more official do you want it?


----------



## Veho (Mar 10, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Source beyond sketchy links?


Here you go:

https://www.technologyreview.com/20...re-steve-kirsch-covid-vaccine-misinformation/
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-usa-idUSL1N2QP18K


https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-964291665925



> Pfizer’s study states that *[out of 44,000 participants]* fourteen people in the placebo group and 15 people in the vaccinated group died before January 2021.
> 
> Those figures reflect deaths *from all causes* during Pfizer’s ongoing study of its vaccine.
> 
> *No deaths were considered by the investigators to be related to the vaccine or placebo, [...] All deaths represent events that occur in the general population of the age groups where they occurred, at a similar rate.*


----------



## ital (Mar 10, 2022)

Veho said:


> Here you go:
> 
> https://www.technologyreview.com/20...re-steve-kirsch-covid-vaccine-misinformation/
> https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-usa-idUSL1N2QP18K
> ...



Didn't touch the DNA patent eh? Too hard to wave away?

When someone is in the "in group" and suddenly sees whats wrong they quickly become "out group". Best read for yourself and make up your own mind (LOL!)

I could add more info, sources and calculations but those who get it get it and those who don't have something something.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 10, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Lol, what? In what way do people who don't get the vaccine actively harm their community? The vaccine does not prevent the spread of the virus, as vaccinated people can still get it and spread it. The only "harm" unvaccinated people could possibly cause would be to themselves, by not reducing the symptoms of an already typically mild illness.
> 
> I got the virus last year. After a few pretty unpleasant days, I was pretty much fine. Now a few things smell weird that once didn't. Big whoop. I won't be getting any COVID vaccine, and believe the whole situation was massively overblown. Yes, I'm aware that a small percentage of people who got the illness died, and that really sucks, but there's a lot of things that kill a lot of people that we didn't shut down the world over.


Unvaccinated people are the biggest spreaders of Covid
https://arxiv.org/abs/2111.12806
https://jeffreydachmd.com/wp-conten...nvaccinated-Threaten-the-vaccinated-PNASl.pdf
There’s also the wasted resources on the unvaccinated due to their increase risk of hospitalization and death
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.27.21262356v1
https://infomed.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/bmj.n2282.full_.pdf
https://jeffreydachmd.com/wp-conten...nvaccinated-Threaten-the-vaccinated-PNASl.pdf
This isn’t just limited to Covid, other diseases have been spreading again due to anti-vaxxors
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0046958019894098
Unvaccinated people are a danger to their community and household, especially to those with weaken immune systems.


ital said:


> The first link is from the Moderna CEO speaking on FOX News, the second is the Pennsylvania State Senate hosted by Senator Doug Mastriano.
> 
> How more official do you want it?


Yeah, I am not putting any weight in FOX news, especially when the study released seems to be saying completely different.


Veho said:


> Here you go:
> 
> https://www.technologyreview.com/20...re-steve-kirsch-covid-vaccine-misinformation/
> https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-usa-idUSL1N2QP18K
> ...


Thanks but the actual sketchy link is in his post


Still, it looks like the study doesn’t actually line up with the claims made, which isn’t shocking.


----------



## Veho (Mar 10, 2022)

ital said:


> Didn't touch the DNA patent eh? Too hard to wave away?


Didn't even bother to argue the fact that your other "points" were bogus? Okay then. 


As for the DNA, have you watched the video? The host asks if it's true that the virus contains a DNA sequence patented by Moderna, the CEO replies that "their scientists are analyzing to know if it's real or not." Nothing else. Literally a "no comment" reply. 

As it turns out:

https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...sms-not-evidence-virus-engineered-daily-mail/



> The claim is based on the observation that the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 and a genetic sequence modified and patented by the pharmaceutical company Moderna share a 19-nucleotide long segment. *However, this sequence isn’t unique nor is it a feature specific to manmade sequences. It can be found in other living things, showing that the sequence occurs naturally.* The presence of a short, identical gene sequence isn’t evidence that the virus was engineered.



Moderna are dicks for trying to patent a naturally occurring sequence, but what else is new.


----------



## ital (Mar 10, 2022)

No idea, copied and pasted from a feed I read as it seemed interesting.

What is sketchy is the sheer amount of disinfo though because you can literally find mountains of info saying one thing and then another saying another. 



Veho said:


> As it turns out:
> 
> https://healthfeedback.org/claimrev...sms-not-evidence-virus-engineered-daily-mail/
> 
> ...



Now that is interesting because you can't patent naturally occurring sequences but the odds of it popping up in covid still make me go hmmm.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 10, 2022)

-


----------



## ital (Mar 10, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> In the end, there's no point in arguing, as I'll never convince you of anything, and you'll never convince me of anything.



That is so true.

I wonder if a gaming forum that is entirely free of the taint of politics will ever happen? It literally ruins everything soon that note I'm out.


----------



## Beware (Mar 10, 2022)

How tf is this thread still open? It’s clear none of y’all know anything about basic biology or even history. Ever wonder why you didn’t catch polio as a child?


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 10, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Source beyond sketchy links? Yeah, I'm not putting any weight behind those fearmongering "Science™" articles.
> 
> See, I can do it too.
> 
> In the end, there's no point in arguing, as I'll never convince you of anything, and you'll never convince me of anything.


I am sorry actual scientific articles scare you. But my links aren’t shit like this

This is literally a sketchy link that’s hidden behind another link within his post. 
I am not going to convinced in conspiracies because they aren’t based in reality. Until anti-vaxxors actually provide a source that isn’t tethered to conspiracies, I see no reason to be convinced by them.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 10, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> When a group of people actively harm their community, we should treat them like a threat. The same should be said of people willfully spreading a virus. I am not telling people to get vaccinated, I am calling those against vaccination a joke and a hazard to other people. Equally, I am calling Russell Brand a joke because he’s just a comedian spreading conspiracies. I am also calling you a joke because you are a joke


Lol, you are illiterate.  "Spreading conspiracies"?  I know what you are trying to say about him, but that's not at all what he is doing.  You are just envious.  He cites more sources in a 15 minute video than you have this entire thread.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 10, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Lol, you are illiterate.  "Spreading conspiracies"?  I know what you are trying to say about him, but that's not at all what he is doing.  You are just envious.  He cites more sources in a 15 minute video than you have this entire thread.


You’ve posted one link and YouTube videos. You really think you have a ground to talk? I am not going through a comedian’s video to look for his sources when he’s already got a history of spreading conspiracies. I don’t get my medical information from comedians. He’s not a medical professional nor does he have any qualifications. He’s just a comedian on YouTube. Having sources doesn’t mean someone isn’t spreading garbage. I’ve seen enough misquotes, omitted information, and other garbage (a lot for literally the 3 people,) to realize people are going to just cite a source and it’s still going to be wrong.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 10, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> You’ve posted one link and YouTube videos. You really think you have a ground to talk? I am not going through a comedian’s video to look for his sources when he’s already got a history of spreading conspiracies. Having sources doesn’t mean someone isn’t spreading garbage. I’ve seen enough misquotes, omitted information, and other garbage (a lot for literally the 3 people,) to realize people are going to just cite a source and it’s still going to be wrong.


Why'd you comment on the video if you didn't even watch it?  You sound absolutely stupid when you say "spreading conspiracies".

If you want to criticize something that is said in the video, then feel free.  If you want to misrepresent it without confirming what it is even about, then you are just being stupid.


----------



## Beware (Mar 10, 2022)

Citing ANY source does not mean you have cited a REPUTABLE source.  Y’all really think finding any internet persona that backs your twisted world view amounts to “research.”


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 10, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Why'd you comment on the video if you didn't even watch it?  You sound absolutely stupid when you say "spreading conspiracies".
> 
> If you want to criticize something that is said in the video, then feel free.  If you want to misrepresent it without confirming what it is even about, then you are just being stupid.


Because I am not about to waste my time on a YouTube video from a comedian known for spreading conspiracies. It’s literally not worth my time. He not a reputable source, he’s not an expert, he’s got zero qualifications, and I don’t need to encourage him by watching any more of his videos. Your “research” into this topic can be some random internet funny man, but I am not about to pretend I care what his input is on this topic.
If you think he qualifies as a source, that’s your mistake.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 11, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Because I am not about to waste my time on a YouTube video from a comedian known for spreading conspiracies. It’s literally not worth my time. He not a reputable source, he’s not an expert, he’s got zero qualifications, and I don’t need to encourage him by watching any more of his videos. Your “research” into this topic can be some random internet funny man, but I am not about to pretend I care what his input is on this topic.
> If you think he qualifies as a source, that’s your mistake.



Wow, you really don't like Russell Brand.  Ok.  I can't say that I've been a big fan of his either, but this current series he is doing is as a comedian/commentator/reporter.  As for what I've seen, he hasn't "spread conspiracies" in any of the videos I posted.  I mean, you could talk shit about anyone and use it as a reason to not pay attention to what they are talking about.  I just find it a little ironic because it is so much easier to dismiss someone like you over someone like him.

Also, when you say "spread conspiracies", what do you mean, exactly?  I know of the idea that encouraging conspiracy theories is frustrating for those who want immediate facts, and I know that conspiracies are illegal and possibly threatening.  The verbage you use seems to conflate the two and suggests that you don't even know why "spreading conspiracies" is potentially a bad thing or even understand your own language.

Anyway, if you aren't going to "waste your time" watching a short video, and instead use time to talk about Russell Brand being a bad person and pretend that by doing so refutes the information he brings to the table--go ahead.

It's pretty much that natural immunity is strong, and 2nd shot efficacy is suffering.  Also, people given passports for being vaccinated is more risky than giving those with natural immunity passports.  He seems to think the CDC/WHO should amend the information.  I think they are rackets.  

He's not "the source" in any of these videos.  The studies and the reports he presents are the sources.  The format he does it is nice too, because it is clear which part of his presentation is his own thoughts about the subject and which parts are the actual sources and information (aka facts).  

You can hate Russell Brand with a burning passion but it's your loss when you are responding to me posting a video and can only pretend to know what you are disagreeing with.  You might like being dumb, but what are you doing for me here?


----------



## LoggerMan (Mar 11, 2022)

I'd rather a day or two of side effects from the vaccine than weeks of agony from the virus itself.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 11, 2022)

tabzer said:


> t's pretty much that natural immunity is strong, and 2nd shot efficacy is suffering. Also, people given passports for being vaccinated is more risky than giving those with natural immunity passports. He seems to think the CDC/WHO should amend the information. I think they are rackets.


Natural immunity seems to be failing the countless unvaccinated people in the ER and dying from Covid. There’s a reason why we are using vaccines as a means helping the immune system instead of pretending it’s perfect on its own. If I am wrong, provide a source that isn’t a YouTube comedian. I am not replying to the rest of your post because I literally don’t care. He’s not an expert and I don’t care.


----------



## Lacius (Mar 11, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Wow, you really don't like Russell Brand.  Ok.  I can't say that I've been a big fan of his either, but this current series he is doing is as a comedian/commentator/reporter.  As for what I've seen, he hasn't "spread conspiracies" in any of the videos I posted.  I mean, you could talk shit about anyone and use it as a reason to not pay attention to what they are talking about.  I just find it a little ironic because it is so much easier to dismiss someone like you over someone like him.
> 
> Also, when you say "spread conspiracies", what do you mean, exactly?  I know of the idea that encouraging conspiracy theories is frustrating for those who want immediate facts, and I know that conspiracies are illegal and possibly threatening.  The verbage you use seems to conflate the two and suggests that you don't even know why "spreading conspiracies" is potentially a bad thing or even understand your own language.
> 
> ...





The Catboy said:


> Natural immunity seems to be failing the countless unvaccinated people in the ER and dying from Covid. There’s a reason why we are using vaccines as a means helping the immune system instead of pretending it’s perfect on its own. If I am wrong, provide a source that isn’t a YouTube comedian. I am not replying to the rest of your post because I literally don’t care. He’s not an expert and I don’t care.


Natural immunity is pretty effective, but the problem with natural immunity is you have to actually suffer/survive COVID-19 without natural immunity in order to get natural immunity.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 11, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Natural immunity seems to be failing the countless unvaccinated people in the ER and dying from Covid. There’s a reason why we are using vaccines as a means helping the immune system instead of pretending it’s perfect on its own. If I am wrong, provide a source that isn’t a YouTube comedian. I am not replying to the rest of your post because I literally don’t care. He’s not an expert and I don’t care.


Not only are you not an expert but you continue to demonstrate willful misunderstanding of what has been said.  1 for Russell Brand - 0 for "TheCatBoy"



Lacius said:


> Natural immunity is pretty effective



It's _very _effective.  Apparently, a lot more effective than the vaccines (by itself).  Granted, it is likely that the vaccine may provide an added boost on top of natural immunity, but the concern is that people need vaccination status to be qualified for these vaccine passports while those with natural immunity are cut off.  If the science was being respected, people who survived covid-19 should have more rights/privileges than those with only vaccinations.  I am against the mandates, in general, but it's not hard to see inconsistency between the science and the corporate/political "sales (by) force".


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 11, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Natural immunity is pretty effective, but the problem with natural immunity is you have to actually suffer/survive COVID-19 without natural immunity in order to get natural immunity.


I am aware but the argument about natural immunity is of course the issue of getting Covid. I don’t mean to preach to the choir but at some point repeating the same talking points with the same person just gets old. I’ve honestly stopped trying with them and don’t care anymore.
I think I am going to stop replying to this thread and hope the staff finally lock it. It’s just same conspiracy nut jobs and the same people arguing with them.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 11, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I am aware but the argument about natural immunity is of course the issue of getting Covid. I don’t mean to preach to the choir but at some point repeating the same talking points with the same person just gets old. I’ve honestly stopped trying with them and at this point.
> I think I am going to stop replying to this thread and hope the staff finally lock it. It’s just same conspiracy nut jobs and the same people arguing with them.



You should try checking out the articles/videos people post instead of pretending to know what they are about when you respond to them.  It's hard for you to come up with something "new" to talk about if you are only all output and no input.


----------



## Delerious (Mar 11, 2022)

Honest question: How many people really care about this argument anymore?


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 11, 2022)

Delerious said:


> Honest question: How many people really care about this argument anymore?


I stopped caring months ago


----------



## Xzi (Mar 11, 2022)

Delerious said:


> Honest question: How many people really care about this argument anymore?


Well the remaining diehard (no pun intended) anti-vaxxers definitely spew nothing but stupidity, so it is impossible to care about what they have to say.  We also now have microbial filters that can catch COVID-19 from the air in indoor spaces, but y'know how capitalism be, so we'll see how many buildings are actually upgraded with them.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 11, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You should try checking out the articles/videos people post instead of pretending to know what they are about when you respond to them.  It's hard for you to come up with something "new" to talk about if you are only all output and no input.


This isn’t a “gotcha,” I just stopped caring to even give you a decent reply.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 11, 2022)

-


----------



## tabzer (Mar 11, 2022)

Delerious said:


> Honest question: How many people really care about this argument anymore?


What's the argument?



The Catboy said:


> This isn’t a “gotcha,” I just stopped caring to even give you a decent reply.



Lol, gotcha!

In order to stop something, you have to first *start *something. 

The dictionary is as good as toilet paper to some people.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 11, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Stupidity is in the eye of the beholder. And it seems that the base instinct of mankind is to regard anyone who does not share one's worldview as stupid. "You don't agree with me, you don't see eye-to-eye with me, therefore, you are an idiot."
> 
> But _ad hominem_ attacks typically fail miserably at winning an argument, if such a thing is even possible to win.


Anti-vaxxors are stupid. Until they actually back anything up with legitimate sources, they aren’t worth respecting. This threads been going on for 2 years and not a single anti-vax post has provided anything beyond no sources, misquotes, fake science, or YouTubers.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 11, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Anti-vaxxors are stupid. Until they actually back anything up with legitimate sources, they aren’t worth respecting.


I'm an anti-anti-anti-vaxxor, so I think I'm above all of that.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 11, 2022)

-


----------



## Xzi (Mar 11, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Stupidity is in the eye of the beholder.


Nah it's good ol' fashioned objective stupidity.  Like a Youtube video that's nothing but 12 hours of various fart noises.  Matter of fact, I'd still rate that above vaccine conspiracy theory videos from people who don't understand biology on even a 6th grade level.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 11, 2022)

-


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 11, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Weeks of agony? I'm pretty sure that unless you're very high risk, you'd be looking at a few days of intermittent discomfort. I got sick last year and tested positive for the coronavirus. I had three days that were pretty unpleasant at parts (the malaise ebbed and flowed, it wasn't constant) and then I was pretty much fine. And I'm not a health nut or anything, I have a sedentary lifestyle. I didn't take any vitamins or anything during the illness. Hardly weeks of agony. Others I know who had symptomatic illness from the virus had similar experiences.
> 
> 
> Oh. I guess you're right! Now that I've been told multiple times that we're stupid, I'm convinced. How did I not see it before?
> ...


If you are an anti-vaxxor, then you are stupid. I am tired of pretending I care. This has been going on for 2 years now and thus far anti-vaxxors have brought their hurt feelings to the thread. There is no basis in reality for the anti-vax movement and there's been no evidence provided by anyone in the movement.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 11, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Ah, "objective" stupidity. Right. Who gets to decide when stupidity is objective or not? Who is the arbiter of stupid?


I literally gave you examples.  Imagine an idea so stupid that a sixth grader would be embarrassed to pitch it as anything but a joke.  Like, "the entire electrical grid should be powered by hamsters."  That's objectively stupid.



HopefulFrog said:


> What is foolishness to some is wisdom to others.


No, you're thinking of "one man's trash is another man's treasure."  That's because objects and tools can be repurposed or restored with the proper techniques.  If an idea, thought, or theory is stupid when it's first pitched, it's stupid forever.  I sure as shit hope that nobody has ever perceived anything Steven Seagal has said as wise.  Otherwise they need a psych evaluation ASAP.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 11, 2022)

Xzi said:


> If an idea, thought, or theory is stupid when it's first pitched, it's stupid forever.



You are missing the point of relativity.  We only have your expert opinion on stupidity as reference.  That might be good enough for you but not for others.  Right there is something you consider wise but others consider foolish, and vice-versa.  Thoughts, ideas, and theories are also repurposed.  Until you figure that out, it will be stupid forever, but it looks like you might be dedicated.

To ascertain objectivity, you need a universally immutable metric, if such a thing exists. 

If the power grid could be powered by hamsters, then it could be a viable idea to power the grid with hamsters.  So, if it was our collective goal to make the power grid capable of being powered by hamsters, it would be a helpful tool in making the power grid less taxing and more efficient.

You are highly imaginative with your fart jokes, but you couldn't think about this...  which is impressive, in a way.


----------



## Xzi (Mar 11, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You are missing the point of relativity.


I'm not.  I'm establishing that not _everything_ is relative.  There are absolute truths, and there is such a thing as absolute, objective stupidity.



tabzer said:


> If the power grid could be powered by hamsters, then it could be a viable idea to power the grid with hamsters.


"If" is doing way too much heavy lifting in that sentence.  And it's a stupid idea precisely because it would still be infeasible even if it were theoretically possible.  The food for the hamsters would end up costing more than the value of the energy they produce.



tabzer said:


> You are highly imaginative with your fart jokes, but you couldn't think about this... which is impressive, in a way.


I'd say it's more impressive that there was a moment there where you considered hamsters might solve the world's energy crisis, but really it's just silly.  Shows how easy it is to direct the conspiratorial mind down any pointless rabbit hole.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 11, 2022)

Xzi said:


> I'm not. I'm establishing that not _everything_ is relative. There are absolute truths, and there is such a thing as absolute, objective stupidity.


If are doing that, I don't think you are being effective.  It is also like I said, it is subjective to your determination.  Maybe you understand that, but we won't know for sure.



Xzi said:


> there was a moment there where you considered hamsters might solve the world's energy crisis



Was there?  It seems like you missed the act of repurposing the idea as an effective tool.  Even if the outcome isn't hamsters running the world, its use as a goal could have a potential net positive outcome.   History is littered with situations of engineers, inventors, marketers, scientists using "foolish" ideas to come up with better works.  It's not a matter of conspiracy.  lol.  It's called "thinking out of the box".


----------



## LoggerMan (Mar 11, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Weeks of agony? I'm pretty sure that unless you're very high risk, you'd be looking at a few days of intermittent discomfort.


I'm taking no chances. My body is a train wreck, if something can happen then it probably will.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 11, 2022)

-


----------



## Delerious (Mar 12, 2022)

tabzer said:


> What's the argument?



The argument for or against vaccines, basically. It just seems like a dead argument at this point. Whoever hasn't gotten the vaccine by now likely never will, and most people have already gotten at least one or two doses, so you know - not a lot of "going back" for them. Just saying, the argument between both sides is virtually pointless now. People have made their choices, so why fight against it this late in the game? At some point, the argument just gets dragged out longer than it should.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

Delerious said:


> The argument for or against vaccines, basically. It just seems like a dead argument at this point. Whoever hasn't gotten the vaccine by now likely never will, and most people have already gotten at least one or two doses, so you know - not a lot of "going back" for them. Just saying, the argument between both sides is virtually pointless now. People have made their choices, so why fight against it this late in the game? At some point, the argument just gets dragged out longer than it should.


The issue isn’t really about who does and doesn’t get vaccinated, it’s the misinformation being constantly spread by the same people against vaccines. Someone not wanting to get vaccinated based on misinformation is a something that should be corrected. Someone spreading that misinformation is also something that should be corrected. I am not about forcing people to be vaccinated, I am just want to stop and counter the spread of conspiracies and misinformation on the forums.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 12, 2022)

But misinformation _*for*_ vaccines is ok.



The Catboy said:


> Natural immunity seems to be failing the countless unvaccinated people in the ER and dying from Covid.



It's also a lie to say it isn't about who does and who does not get vaccinated when you are constantly voicing the argument that unvaccinated people are threatening you.  Lol.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 12, 2022)

-


----------



## Beware (Mar 12, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> "Misinformation" has to be my least favorite buzzword I've ever encountered. During the last couple of years it's been thrown around with abandon in an attempt to stifle discussion and disagreement. Anything that doesn't align with the popular, typically liberal, viewpoint is labeled as "misinformation," implying it's provably, obviously, patently false and that those "spreading" it are aware that it's "false" but spread it anyway to sow dissent, or something.
> 
> Claiming to be able to fly by flapping one's arms is misinformation. Arguing against the notion that people who don't get vaccinated are idiots who endanger the holy vaccinated ones is not "misinformation."


This is such a tired mf line.  “What even is misinformation lololo”

when you claim there is some reason to not protect the vulnerable people around you with little to no effort on your part if nothing else you’re an ignorant narcissist with as much knowledge of basic biology as a kindergartener. Ever wonder why you didn’t have polio or measles as a child? Immunocompromised people make up about 3% of the population of the US. Literally every day you leave your house you are putting dozens if not hundreds of people at risk for your own ego. That doesn’t even count the elderly (who still deserve to be alive no matter how “vulnerable” you view them) or children (who have been hospitalized in record numbers due to this plague). Take your intellectually bankrupt semantics and choke on them like so much biomass


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> "Misinformation" has to be my least favorite buzzword I've ever encountered. During the last couple of years it's been thrown around with abandon in an attempt to stifle discussion and disagreement. Anything that doesn't align with the popular, typically liberal, viewpoint is labeled as "misinformation," implying it's provably, obviously, patently false and that those "spreading" it are aware that it's "false" but spread it anyway to sow dissent, or something.
> 
> Claiming to be able to fly by flapping one's arms is misinformation. Arguing against the notion that people who don't get vaccinated are idiots who endanger the holy vaccinated ones is not "misinformation."


Maybe provide a source with actual evidence, credentials, and verifiable. Until anti-vaxxors provide proof that’s actually legitimate, it’s misinformation. I am sorry actual science scares people and I am sorry reality doesn’t care about what the anti-vax movement thinks. Either they provide evidence or their claims are dismissed as misinformation, that’s how actual science works.


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

This conversation clip speaks volumes...

https://rumble.com/vx2dip-the-alchemist-vs-emerald-robinson-and-doctor-malone.html


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> This conversation clip speaks volumes...
> 
> https://rumble.com/vx2dip-the-alchemist-vs-emerald-robinson-and-doctor-malone.html


Shit like this is actual misinformation, this is the shit anti-vaxxors have been bringing to this thread. By no means should this shit be respected or treated like an equal to actual medical research. There’s literally nothing of this that is linked to any research, verifiable, or even reviewed. It’s actual garbage and it should be called that.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 12, 2022)

-


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> You put a lot of trust behind official sources. I doubt you did the "science" yourself, so you have nothing but blind faith in the "experts" and the government to stand behind. You let them do the thinking for you, never once considering that they may not have your best interests in mind.


I trust the research when reality backs up the research. Each claim made by the anti-vax movement has failed to show up in reality. There have been posted countless “concerns” in this thread and time has proven them all wrong. I am not putting my faith in the government, I am trusting medical researchers over some random guy on YouTube. I am trusting the scientific process that has gone into the research, been reviewed, been verified, and can be replicated. The same can not be said of any of the claims made by the anti-vax movement. I raise a few simple questions, why aren’t the claims of the anti-vax backup by reality? Why haven’t any of their claims been replicated or verified? Why does it always come from shady sites with little to no sources?
As for your doubt, I really don't care what you believe of me. Consider the doubt to have been created by the kind of shit XDel just posted. If I should doubt anything, it should be claims without evidence that don't match up to reality. Why should I trust claims made without evidence?


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 12, 2022)

-


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> I appreciate the reasonable response. Also, I'm not 100% anti-vax, I'm just skeptical about the coronavirus vaccine in particular.


I understand the concern about vaccines. As someone who is immunocompromised, I spend literal hours researching every vaccine I am going to get. I also spend a good amount of time talking to my doctors about any concerns about my safety and what to look out for in case I have a negative reaction. I am by no means against concerns about the safety of vaccines because people should care about their own health. I am only against a movement of people spreading misinformation and discouraging others from getting vaccined. This hurts actual skepticism and hurts actual research into the topic when misinformation is spread alongside actual information. Some people either can't or need to be careful when getting vaccinated or even avoiding vaccines and I simply what the information they are getting to not be laced with conspiracies.


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Shit like this is actual misinformation, this is the shit anti-vaxxors have been bringing to this thread. By no means should this shit be respected or treated like an equal to actual medical research. There’s literally nothing of this that is linked to any research, verifiable, or even reviewed. It’s actual garbage and it should be called that.





The Catboy said:


> Shit like this is actual misinformation, this is the shit anti-vaxxors have been bringing to this thread. By no means should this shit be respected or treated like an equal to actual medical research. There’s literally nothing of this that is linked to any research, verifiable, or even reviewed. It’s actual garbage and it should be called that.




...according to Google, though if you check with Klaus Schwab, founder of the World Economic Forum, he says the same thing. Have you never heard of this Fourth Industrial Revolution that he is so proud of?! Have you not seen the research of DARPA and others? Seriously?!?!?! What rock have you been sleeping under?

https://www.bitchute.com/video/6hMRsee96cps/

And here are some more censored doctors, of which there are MANY!!!

https://rumble.com/vsrdax-panel-of-doctors-in-nashville-discussing-mrna-vaccines.html


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Mar 12, 2022)

-


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> ...according to Google, though if you check with Klaus Schwab, founder of the World Economic Forum, he says the same thing. Have you never heard of this Fourth Industrial Revolution that he is so proud of?! Have you not seen the research of DARPA and others? Seriously?!?!?! What rock have you been sleeping under?
> 
> https://www.bitchute.com/video/6hMRsee96cps/
> 
> ...


Yeah, this just sounds like a loosely strung-together conspiracy with little to no backing in reality. Do you have anything other than known sites knowns for spreading conspiracies?


HopefulFrog said:


> I can respect that. And certainly there is some stuff that's wildly out there, conspiracy theories that have no evidence whatsoever behind them. I'm just also personally reluctant to unquestioningly accept something as unbiased truth just because it came from an official source. I do accept scientific consensus on most things, even if I haven't proven them myself, like the Earth being spherical and not flat. But I remain skeptical about the whole coronavirus thing, and consider the overall reaction to it by the world to have been excessive.
> 
> Once again, I appreciate the reasonable response. Posts like that are much more likely to make me stop, think, and consider the viewpoint of the other person than posts like the other guy who told me to go choke on something.


There are moments when I lose my cool with people and that's mostly due to seeing the same circular arguments that are mostly summed up with the very same issue in the post I am quoting above yours. An actual conspiracy that is being held together with shoestring and bubblegum. At some point, this shit gets old and it's frustrating to deal with, even when one isn't posting. Skepticism is something science is supposed to have, that's how verification and peer-review are done. Someone makes a claim, others say, "sus," the claim is studied and tested and if the results are replicated, then the claim it's safe to say the claims add up and can be verified. This is the process that I prefer to trust over the alternative because the alternative hasn't provided anything close to this process. I am also one for expressing concerns about any medical treatment. I didn't get vaccinated when they first became public. I waited out the results, I talked to my doctor, I talked to another doctor and studied the results. My wife was also part of a vaccine trial and I waited out the results of that as well. I don't jump to trusting without spending time watching the results, doing research, talking to professionals, and even researching conspiracies. I do actually research the conspiracies to see if there's any truth mixed in there before forming an opinion. Most of the time the truth is so disconnected that it's barely recognizable, which is why I don't trust sources that I can't verify.


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Yeah, this just sounds like a loosely strung-together conspiracy with little to no backing in reality. Do you have anything other than known sites knowns for spreading conspiracies?
> 
> There are moments when I lose my cool with people and that's mostly due to seeing the same circular arguments that are mostly summed up with the very same issue in the post I am quoting above yours. An actual conspiracy that is being held together with shoestring and bubblegum. At some point, this shit gets old and it's frustrating to deal with, even when one isn't posting. Skepticism is something science is supposed to have, that's how verification and peer-review are done. Someone makes a claim, others say, "sus," the claim is studied and tested and if the results are replicated, then the claim it's safe to say the claims add up and can be verified. This is the process that I prefer to trust over the alternative because the alternative hasn't provided anything close to this process. I am also one for expressing concerns about any medical treatment. I didn't get vaccinated when they first became public. I waited out the results, I talked to my doctor, I talked to another doctor and studied the results. My wife was also part of a vaccine trial and I waited out the results of that as well. I don't jump to trusting without spending time watching the results, doing research, talking to professionals, and even researching conspiracies. I do actually research the conspiracies to see if there's any truth mixed in there before forming an opinion. Most of the time the truth is so disconnected that it's barely recognizable, which is why I don't trust sources that I can't verify.



Do you mean sites that don't censor conversation which true scientific method does not and can not? So like Youtube? You could search it for Dr Malone to some degree, there is plenty of videos about HEK 293, and the 293 abortions performed to get "positive" enough results to test for Vaccines and mRNA's, as well as to enhance flavor in food. That's all available still through google, but nearly everyone has been silenced since they banned the last president on Twitter.

Anyhow, some links for you to browse through; horses mouth kind of stuff. That is to say, IF you are sincere.

On Facebook:
WEF ON FACEBOOK

The Web:

https://www.weforum.org/

Youtube:



There is also DARPA:


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 12, 2022)

Yeah yeah the reptilian aliens want to reset the world and erase you from the face of the Earth, and we're all spies for them. Your 'sources' are so much censored that there are dozens of debunks by the scientific community of their stupidities, go back to sleep bro


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> Do you mean sites that don't censor conversation which true scientific method does not and can not? So like Youtube? You could search it for Dr Malone to some degree, there is plenty of videos about HEK 293, and the 293 abortions performed to get "positive" enough results to test for Vaccines and mRNA's, as well as to enhance flavor in food. That's all available still through google, but nearly everyone has been silenced since they banned the last president on Twitter.
> 
> Anyhow, some links for you to browse through; horses mouth kind of stuff. That is to say, IF you are sincere.
> 
> ...



I don't know what I am looking and I am really not about to waste brain cells trying to piece together whatever conspiracy you are trying to present. Dr. Malone has been discredited multiple times and very little of his research has actually been verified. I don't care if he's got a doctorate or that some organization you've decided to form a conspiracy around says some shit. If it can't be backed by evidence and fails all verification, then it's nonsense and can be dismissed as nonsense.


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I don't know what I am looking and I am really not about to waste brain cells trying to piece together whatever conspiracy you are trying to present. Dr. Malone has been discredited multiple times and very little of his research has actually been verified. I don't care if he's got a doctorate or that some organization you've decided to form a conspiracy around says some shit. If it can't be backed by evidence and fails all verification, then it's nonsense and can be dismissed as nonsense.



Oh, please please PLEASE provide me with the indisputable evidence of his false claims, if you got hot material, believe me, I'd happily start calling him out for lying. On the other hand, if you ain't got nothing, then stop fronting,


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

Here is another doctor courtesy of Canadian Independent aka non-state sanctioned media

 media: https://odysee.com/@RebelNews:9/COV...odkinson:5?r=FU7d4iTGVxtWvTgb2vkC2YLbXFPVni8K


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> Oh, please please PLEASE provide me with the indisputable evidence of his false claims, if you got hot material, believe me, I'd happily start calling him out for lying. On the other hand, if you ain't got nothing, then stop fronting,


Bet
https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jan/06/who-robert-malone-joe-rogans-guest-was-vaccine-sci/
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/arts/music/fact-check-joe-rogan-robert-malone.html
https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...p-fact-check-a87b1044c6256968dcc33886a36c949f
https://www.theatlantic.com/science...lone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...malone-vaccine-misinformation-rogan-mandates/
https://www.businessinsider.com/exp...-claims-by-robert-malone-rogan-podcast-2022-2
https://factcheck.afp.com/http%3A%2F%2Fdoc.afp.com%2F9EU9W7-1
https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...ntific-papers-fueling-covid-19-misinformation
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-cytotoxic-idUSL2N2O01XP




XDel said:


> Here is another doctor courtesy of Canadian Independent aka non-state sanctioned media
> 
> media: https://odysee.com/@RebelNews:9/COV...odkinson:5?r=FU7d4iTGVxtWvTgb2vkC2YLbXFPVni8K


Dr. Hodkinson isn't very accurate either
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dr-roger-hodkinson-covid-hoax/
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9765563716
He's not really as popular, so finding articles is a bit slimmer until he finally gets up there in popularity


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I don't know what I am looking and I am really not about to waste brain cells trying to piece together whatever conspiracy you are trying to present. Dr. Malone has been discredited multiple times and very little of his research has actually been verified. I don't care if he's got a doctorate or that some organization you've decided to form a conspiracy around says some shit. If it can't be backed by evidence and fails all verification, then it's nonsense and can be dismissed as nonsense.


Pretty sad, isn't it? Just another repeatable pattern that these folks exhibit. Posting links from places like Rumble, Bitchute, Banned, Facebook, LBRY/Odysee, Right-Winged YT channels which are very well known to contain conspiracy and crackpot theories and think it proves their points, but when easily debunked they don't believe they're wrong and just double down on the misinformation and conspiracy and repeat the cycle again.


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Bet
> https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jan/06/who-robert-malone-joe-rogans-guest-was-vaccine-sci/
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/arts/music/fact-check-joe-rogan-robert-malone.html
> https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...p-fact-check-a87b1044c6256968dcc33886a36c949f
> ...



Politifact, the NY Times, Factcheck, Reuters... I was hoping you'd have something solid. :/

So I have to ask, what is it about these information outlets that make you invest your faith in them? And how was your attention first drawn to them? Did you start out open to all information outlets, or were these the ones hand picked for you from the get go?

I'm not being sly, I'm just asking in sincerity. I'm dumb founded.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Pretty sad, isn't it? Just another repeatable pattern that these folks exhibit. Posting links from places like Rumble, Bitchute, Banned, Facebook, LBRY/Odysee, Right-Winged YT channels which are very well known to contain conspiracy and crackpot theories and think it proves their points, but when easily debunked they don't believe they're wrong and just double down on the misinformation and conspiracy and repeat the cycle again.


It's sadder that some people literally see that kind of shit and don't think, "Wow, that has no place being compared to reputable sources." Draw a line in the sand and call it out when misinformation is clearly being said. It's ok to be skeptical but don't allow someone who probably believes alien lizard people are putting microchips in our blood and making us girls or something. Sadder knowing alien lizard people aren't real because I def would have fucked one by now.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> Politifact, the NY Times, Factcheck, Reuters... I was hoping you'd have something solid. :/


A lot more solid and they back up way more than the stuff you've been showing. 


The Catboy said:


> It's sadder that some people literally see that kind of shit and don't think, "Wow, that has no place being compared to reputable sources." Like, no, draw a line in the sand and call it out when misinformation is clearly being said. It's ok to be skeptical but don't allow someone who probably believes alien lizard people are putting microchips in our blood and making us girls or something. Sadder knowing alien lizard people aren't real because I def would have fucked one by now.


At least we have great 5G reception from the vaccine, amirite?


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

LinkmstrYT said:


> A lot more solid and they back up way more than the stuff you've been showing.
> 
> At least we have great 5G reception from the vaccine, amirite?


Explain how exactly, how are they backing up what they say because they end up wrong so often.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> Politifact, the NY Times, Factcheck, Reuters... I was hoping you'd have something solid. :/
> 
> So I have to ask, what is it about these information outlets that make you invest your faith in them? And how was your attention first drawn to them? Did you start out open to all information outlets, or were these the ones hand picked for you from the get go?
> 
> I'm not being sly, I'm just asking in sincerity. I'm dumb founded.


You've literally only posted known conspiracy sites, please shut the fuck up. Seriously, just because you don't agree with them and reality, doesn't mean shit. Post something that doesn't come from sites known for posting antisemitic conspiracies.


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> You've literally only posted known conspiracy sites, please shut the fuck up. Seriously, just because you don't agree with them and reality, doesn't mean shit. Post something that doesn't come from sites known for posting antisemitic conspiracies.


The world economic forum is not a conspiracy site, I mean it's the home page of the grand conspiracy (which they are quite open about these days), but not a conspiracy site. As for Bitchute and Rumble, they don't silence, as TRUE SCIENTIFIC debate doesn't silence, ass. 

Wtf do you kids do these days, wait for your microsoft news feed to pop up then swallow it as fucking fact?! Are you kids for real!?!?! Are you that daft and trusting?!? What happened to you?!?!


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> The world economic forum is not a conspiracy site, I mean it's the home page of the grand conspiracy (which they are quite open about these days), but not a conspiracy site. As for Bitchute and Rumble, they don't silence, as TRUE SCIENTIFIC debate doesn't silence, ass.
> 
> Wtf do you kids do these days, wait for your microsoft news feed to pop up then swallow it as fucking fact?! Are you kids for real!?!?! Are you that daft and trusting?!? What happened to you?!?!


Bitchute literally has a tag for sharing antisemitic content and has a tag for sharing White Nationalist content. I am not going to post them but they can be found by literally Googling them. Rumble also has the same history of posting antisemitic and White Nationalist content. Both of them have a history of hosting debunked conspiracies, fake news, and countless other flawed articles. These aren't hidden either, they are literally part of the site and can be found by searching those sites. If you are getting your "TRUE SCIENTIFIC debate" from these sites, that's your stupidity and not one I need to respect. 
I am also not a child, I am literally 30 and not the one posting known conspiracy sites on a gaming forum. I am sorry your delusional world doesn't line up with the rest of reality.


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Bitchute literally has a tag for sharing antisemitic content and has a tag for sharing White Nationalist content. I am not going to post them but they can be found by literally Googling them. Rumble also has the same history of posting antisemitic and White Nationalist content. Both of them have a history of hosting debunked conspiracies, fake news, and countless other flawed articles. These aren't hidden either, they are literally part of the site and can be found by searching those sites. If you are getting your "TRUE SCIENTIFIC debate" from these sites, that's your stupidity and not one I need to respect.
> I am also not a child, I am literally 30 and not the one posting known conspiracy sites on a gaming forum. I am sorry your delusional world doesn't line up with the rest of reality.




Oh believe me, I am aware of the antisemitic and White Nationalist content, but that's kind of how free speech works, you have to let the idiots express them selves as well, then through the process of debate, their folly can be exploited, simple. 

On that note, people would come into my old Youtube account and post the same sort of comments, along with the twisted comments of everyone else who's heart has hardened but in another way, like pro-abortionists, the true NAZI's of our era.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 12, 2022)

XDel said:


> Oh believe me, I am aware of the antisemitic and White Nationalist content, but that's kind of how free speech works, you have to let the idiots express them selves as well, then through the process of debate, their folly can be exploited, simple.
> 
> On that note, people would come into my old Youtube account and post the same sort of comments, along with the twisted comments of everyone else who's heart has hardened but in another way, like pro-abortionists, the true NAZI's of our era.


You are aware that these sites literally host the worst of worst in form of conspiracies and yet you trust them as a source? You don't stop to think that maybe the information shared might be compromised, biased, or just false to spread a narrative? You actually trust these sites because "that's kind of how free speech works?"


----------



## XDel (Mar 12, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> You are aware that these sites literally host the worst of worst in form of conspiracies and yet you trust them as a source? You don't stop to think that maybe the information shared might be compromised, biased, or just false to spread a narrative? You actually trust these sites because "that's kind of how free speech works?"



I mostly post on Rumble and Bitchute but most of the information I follow, as I shared here, comes from the horses' mouth. I go direct to the doctors in question, listen to what is coming out of their own mouths, watch to see who is being silenced, why, and by who, and so on and so forth. And if I do find a post on Bitchute or what ever that captures my curiosity, I search the shit out of it so I can get to the core of the story, the same I do with main stream news outlets and the information they provide. 
In the end you come to find that Bitchute or what ever server a video is being hosted on isn't the problem when there is no censorship, it comes down the the individual content maker, so one can be full of shit, where as the other one might be on top of their game and doing legit journalism. Now when a server starts filtering, blocking, silencing, and banning, then you can't ever hear what the other side really had to say, all you hear is a RE-Presentation of them through some source other than them selves, and there is nothing you can do about it except for trust that that server truly filtered that person because of their disinformation, societal safety, individual safety, or what ever.... the soft dictatorship. BIG BROTHER SAYS YOU SHALL NOT!!!! For Your Health!


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 13, 2022)

XDel said:


> I mostly post on Rumble and Bitchute but most of the information I follow, as I shared here, comes from the horses' mouth. I go direct to the doctors in question, listen to what is coming out of their own mouths, watch to see who is being silenced, why, and by who, and so on and so forth. And if I do find a post on Bitchute or what ever that captures my curiosity, I search the shit out of it so I can get to the core of the story, the same I do with main stream news outlets and the information they provide.
> In the end you come to find that Bitchute or what ever server a video is being hosted on isn't the problem when there is no censorship, it comes down the the individual content maker, so one can be full of shit, where as the other one might be on top of their game and doing legit journalism. Now when a server starts filtering, blocking, silencing, and banning, then you can't ever hear what the other side really had to say, all you hear is a RE-Presentation of them through some source other than them selves, and there is nothing you can do about it except for trust that that server truly filtered that person because of their disinformation, societal safety, individual safety, or what ever.... the soft dictatorship. BIG BROTHER SAYS YOU SHALL NOT!!!! For Your Health!


Why don't you post these direct sources on the Temp? Why filter them through those sites?


----------



## XDel (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Why don't you post these direct sources on the Temp? Why filter them through those sites?



I did share some of them, the World Economic Forum as an example, and DARPA, though that was through their Youtube channel. I can share more, but so far you just assume that I'm taking bits and pieces of random data and creating conspiracy theories out of it. All I am trying to say is take the time, listen to what they are saying, and double check the info that is spoon fed to us all because we are being lied to and we are in some serious danger. If I am wrong, and I'm not, but if I were, then the worse that comes out of listening to me is for me to look like an ass when it turns out tomorrow that the Covid really was a threat to our lives, that the world did need to be shut down, that the mRNA is good for your health, good for baby, and Bill Gates loves us all more than those little girls even.


----------



## XDel (Mar 13, 2022)

Oh ya, and one other aspect is that many of these banned doctors are forced to use sites other than Youtube because of the ridicule and censorship from the giant corporations. Many of them host their own web sites, but have to rely upon Bitchute, Rumble, Odysee, and such to host their videos, or for those who have interviewed them to host them.


----------



## Beware (Mar 13, 2022)

HopefulFrog said:


> Ah yes, the "you're a murderer if you don't vaccinate" spiel. Except, it doesn't make any sense when vaccinated people still get the virus and still transmit it. Also, the flu has been a thing for a long time and kills a lot of people every year. By going outside, you're putting some people at risk from it, you murderer! We should all just encase ourselves in bubbles, never go outside, and refuse to live our lives. Even though we never did that for other illnesses that can be life-threatening to the immunocompromised.
> 
> Furthermore, I've had the illness before, so thanks to natural immunity I should be better protected than any vaccination could provide. And your _ad hominem_ attacks serve well to highlight the inadequacy of your position.
> 
> ...


“Why would I get vaccinated if I can still get or transmit the disease” is the most damning evidence that you lack any actual knowledge of basic biology. This is about risk and harm reduction but of course you don’t care because you’re not in a vulnerable class. Your narcissism is blinding you to even the most rudimentary understanding of how these kinds of diseases spread.

“I’m skeptical of Covid” is also something that could only be said by someone completely insulated to the effects of it while those of us who work in healthcare literally see the results daily.  Must be fucking nice.


----------



## KingVamp (Mar 13, 2022)

XDel said:


> like pro-abortionists, the true NAZI's of our era.





XDel said:


> BIG BROTHER SAYS YOU SHALL NOT!!!! For Your Health!


Complains about big brother, but is totally fine with big brother forcing people to have births, no matter what.


----------



## XDel (Mar 13, 2022)

KingVamp said:


> Complains about big brother, but is totally fine with big brother forcing people to have births, no matter what.


Big brother don't force anyone to have sex in the first place, but big brother does encourage sexuality out the freaking roof no doubt.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 13, 2022)

I love the idea that Malone being banned from Twitter and therefore "discredited" was the primary point of the first "fact check".

All these hit pieces against him from journos with quotes from Doctor's saying "I have never heard of that" as a basis.

And his biggest mistake?  *Citing a peer-reviewed study.*  Lol.  Granted, it turned out to have fundamental issues, and retractions were made.

The guy thinks a lot and has interesting input.  I can see how people who want to control how others think are so enraged with him.

I'm curious about one point that was mentioned.  If the "psuedo" spike-cells generated by cause of the mRNA vaccine aren't toxic, then why does the immune system react to it?  Like, I can see how this topic can get very nuanced and frivolous--but when an editorial staff makes a claim about a Doctor spreading misinformation, this is no longer about "the experts".


----------



## NoobletCheese (Mar 13, 2022)

imo it's virtuous to take the Covid vaccines, and I would never tell anyone not to take them.

But there is a vast chasm between virtues and obligations.  It's virtuous to donate blood, donate to starving children, register as an organ donor, participate in clinical trials, have airbags in your car etc.  But to make them obligatory would require extra justification.

If you're concerned I'm putting you at risk by being unvaccinated, there are many lines of defense at your disposal: multiple Covid vaccines, N95 mask, face shield, gloves, social distancing, daily nasal irrigation & throat gargle, daily shower, weight loss, vitamin D, vitamin C, zinc, work from home, stay at home (home delivery of supplies), avoid contact with the unvaccinated (we're a minority so your chances of encountering us in the wild are significantly lower) and natural immunity if you had prior infection.

If this doesn't achieve an absolute risk reduction to your satisfaction, then I will agree to get regularly tested.  This should place me at a lower relative risk to you than someone who is untested and vaccinated.  Which raises the question: should there be testing mandates for the vaccinated?  After all, freedom doesn't include freedom to put others at risk.  Choices have consequences.

Other minor issues include the right to consent to medical procedures & potential risks associated with the vaccines.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 13, 2022)

XDel said:


> Oh ya, and one other aspect is that many of these banned doctors are forced to use sites other than Youtube because of the ridicule and censorship from the giant corporations. Many of them host their own web sites, but have to rely upon Bitchute, Rumble, Odysee, and such to host their videos, or for those who have interviewed them to host them.


They aren't "banned," they were discredited because their research is bunk. Their research has been reviewed and found to be bunk. They go to these sites so they can share their bunk reports and then complain about being "censored" when people point out that they are spreading trash.


XDel said:


> I did share some of them, the World Economic Forum as an example, and DARPA, though that was through their Youtube channel. I can share more, but so far you just assume that I'm taking bits and pieces of random data and creating conspiracy theories out of it. All I am trying to say is take the time, listen to what they are saying, and double check the info that is spoon fed to us all because we are being lied to and we are in some serious danger. If I am wrong, and I'm not, but if I were, then the worse that comes out of listening to me is for me to look like an ass when it turns out tomorrow that the Covid really was a threat to our lives, that the world did need to be shut down, that the mRNA is good for your health, good for baby, and Bill Gates loves us all more than those little girls even.


You shared random links and then went on a ramble that I am not going to piece together when I know it's conspiracy nonsense. I don't care about organizations nor what they say because at the end of the day, it's only about the results and if those results can be replicated. If there's some conspiracy about "The Great Reset" or some shit like that, then I am going to ignore that because it's not relevant and I don't fucking care. If your research is something worth a damn, then post it and let it be reviewed. If your posts are just conspiracy rambles, then they are going to be dismissed. I am not going to entertain conspiracy rambles. Either make a post with something from an actual reliable source or continue to be called out for your garbage until the staff finally lock this thread.


----------



## XDel (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> They aren't "banned," they were discredited because their research is bunk. Their research has been reviewed and found to be bunk. They go to these sites so they can share their bunk reports and then complain about being "censored" when people point out that they are spreading trash.
> 
> You shared random links and then went on a ramble that I am not going to piece together when I know it's conspiracy nonsense. I don't care about organizations nor what they say because at the end of the day, it's only about the results and if those results can be replicated. If there's some conspiracy about "The Great Reset" or some shit like that, then I am going to ignore that because it's not relevant and I don't fucking care. If your research is something worth a damn, then post it and let it be reviewed. If your posts are just conspiracy rambles, then they are going to be dismissed. I am not going to entertain conspiracy rambles. Either make a post with something from an actual reliable source or continue to be called out for your garbage until the staff finally lock this thread.



Well if you are going to pre-judge everything and jump to conclusions there isn't much we can accomplish in the way of sharing material or conversation, though I did send you a PM with a video I thought you might find amusing.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 13, 2022)

XDel said:


> Well if you are going to pre-judge everything and jump to conclusions there isn't much we can accomplish in the way of sharing material or conversation, though I did send you a PM with a video I thought you might find amusing.


I’d prefer if you didn’t, that would require me unblocking you and I am not about to do that.


----------



## XDel (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I’d prefer if you didn’t, that would require me unblocking you and I am not about to do that.


Unblock me? But I was only being friendly, sheesh.


----------



## Delerious (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The issue isn’t really about who does and doesn’t get vaccinated, it’s the misinformation being constantly spread by the same people against vaccines. Someone not wanting to get vaccinated based on misinformation is a something that should be corrected. Someone spreading that misinformation is also something that should be corrected. I am not about forcing people to be vaccinated, I am just want to stop and counter the spread of conspiracies and misinformation on the forums.



The way I see it, people need to be responsible for themselves. It's one thing to have made this argument several months ago, but again - at this point, those who have not gotten the vaccine have pretty much made up their minds. If some of the users in this forum aren't able to discern fact from fiction, then that's ultimately on them, and they're going to have to live with the possibility that their lack of action may very well harm others. Users on this forum have over 170 pages of this thread to look through - not to mention THOUSANDS of pages on Google - if they really feel inclined to. If at this point, people are still not going to listen, then it's not our responsibility to try and convince them - and in fact, reading/hearing the thing they don't want to read/hear often only has the opposite desired effect among the most stubborn of people. You need look no further than basic psychology to understand that. It's like trying to convince a flat-Earther that the Earth is round. Hell, there are unvaccinated people who have been hospitalized for COVID who STILL say that they would never get the vaccine.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 13, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I love the idea that Malone being banned from Twitter and therefore "discredited" was the primary point of the first "fact check".
> 
> All these hit pieces against him from journos with quotes from Doctor's saying "I have never heard of that" as a basis.
> 
> ...


His mistake wasn’t what he cited, it’s the misinformation he spreads and tries to us his doctorate’s to give credence to.
You could just read how they work if you are actually interested 
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...=The mRNA vaccines do not,it on their surface.
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-mrna-vaccines


Delerious said:


> The way I see it, people need to be responsible for themselves. It's one thing to have made this argument several months ago, but again - at this point, those who have not gotten the vaccine have pretty much made up their minds. If some of the users in this forum aren't able to discern fact from fiction, then that's ultimately on them, and they're going to have to live with the possibility that their lack of action may very well harm others. Users on this forum have over 170 pages of this thread to look through - not to mention THOUSANDS of pages on Google - if they really feel inclined to. If at this point, people are still not going to listen, then it's not our responsibility to try and convince them - and in fact, reading/hearing the thing they don't want to read/hear often only has the opposite desired effect among the most stubborn of people. You need look no further than basic psychology to understand that. It's like trying to convince a flat-Earther that the Earth is round. Hell, there are unvaccinated people who have been hospitalized for COVID who STILL say that they would never get the vaccine.


I get cha but I am actually not trying to convince them because I’ve given up years ago on some of them. I am just trying to counter misinformation until this thread is finally locked.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> His mistake wasn’t what he cited




If that's true, then why do half of your "debunking" articles say otherwise?  Do you read them?   

Also, you ignored a key point that I highlighted about the nature of toxicity of the pseudo spike-proteins which is another bulk that the "debunking" targets.  

Not only are you contradicting the science with your own misinformation (natural immunity), you are contradicting the sources that you post.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 13, 2022)

tabzer said:


> If that's true, then why do half of your "debunking" articles say otherwise?  Do you read them?
> 
> Also, you ignored a key point that I highlighted about the nature of toxicity of the pseudo spike-proteins which is another bulk that the "debunking" targets.
> 
> Not only are you contradicting the science with your own misinformation (natural immunity), you are contradicting the sources that you post.


Provide a source that shows I am wrong, wait you fucking won’t because you never have sources. You only post some bullshit and expect to be respected. Prove me wrong.


----------



## mightymuffy (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Provide a source that shows I am wrong, wait you fucking won’t because you never have sources. You only post some bullshit and expect to be respected. Prove me wrong.


Wow is this feckwit STILL at it.... "I want proof! I WAAANT PRo0oF!11!" Get a grip sunshine, how many times do we have to tell you about said sources? Oh wait, you clearly don't bother reading those posts coz they aren't for you. Or something. Recent proof being a reply you made a few hours back to Xdel ffs.. At least that other horseshit peddler with the toon link avatar has gone quiet...

A lot has changed since this topic was created to be honest: Omicron, should you care to read statistics from, ohhh, someone like the ONS here in the UK, yeah fly by night cowboys that don't know what they're talking about  (I'm sure there's similar US based sites that will provide the same information) But yeah Omicron is not only little more than a severe cold in terms of how ill the worst off become from it, it also  provides immunisation from the Delta variant, plus a better-than-vaccine immunisation from all forms of covid. It's basically the vax that our best scientists couldn't make. Now a vaccination should absolutely still be offered, and still be highly recommended for the elderly, or more vulnerable. But now's the time, if there ever should be one, to basically rub everyone elses faces in it, creating a herd immunity the vax cannot offer by itself. Thus, the need to be vaxxed, for healthy able bodied people like most of us on here, is lessened.

That's not to say a completely new strain will show up.. But a virus by its very nature 'weakens' as it evolves/mutates for a number of reasons. One reason being the hosts it survives in won't try to destroy it so much as it's not considered as great a threat... this is beneficial for both us AND the virus itself! As a result, listen to the top medical scientists, preferably more independant ones, when they say any mutation will Most Likely be a stem from Omicron.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 13, 2022)

mightymuffy said:


> Wow is this feckwit STILL at it.... "I want proof! I WAAANT PRo0oF!11!" Get a grip sunshine, how many times do we have to tell you about said sources? Oh wait, you clearly don't bother reading those posts coz they aren't for you. Or something. Recent proof being a reply you made a few hours back to Xdel ffs.. At least that other horseshit peddler with the toon link avatar has gone quiet...
> 
> A lot has changed since this topic was created to be honest: Omicron, should you care to read statistics from, ohhh, someone like the ONS here in the UK, yeah fly by night cowboys that don't know what they're talking about  (I'm sure there's similar US based sites that will provide the same information) But yeah Omicron is not only little more than a severe cold in terms of how ill the worst off become from it, it also  provides immunisation from the Delta variant, plus a better-than-vaccine immunisation from all forms of covid. It's basically the vax that our best scientists couldn't make. Now a vaccination should absolutely still be offered, and still be highly recommended for the elderly, or more vulnerable. But now's the time, if there ever should be one, to basically rub everyone elses faces in it, creating a herd immunity the vax cannot offer by itself. Thus, the need to be vaxxed, for healthy able bodied people like most of us on here, is lessened.
> 
> That's not to say a completely new strain will show up.. But a virus by its very nature 'weakens' as it evolves/mutates for a number of reasons. One reason being the hosts it survives in won't try to destroy it so much as it's not considered as great a threat... this is beneficial for both us AND the virus itself! As a result, listen to the top medical scientists, preferably more independant ones, when they say any mutation will Most Likely be a stem from Omicron.


I don't read the posts if they include random rambles, conspiracy sites, and anything that isn't just a simple source and explanation. If there's a source backing up the claims made by these members, then they should provide them, otherwise they should be called out until they do.


----------



## subcon959 (Mar 13, 2022)

I dunno if it's because I'm older or not, but I find this constant need to outsource critical thinking a bit weird. When people sit around and talk they don't usually all have a stack of books to cite if needed. Why the constant need to treat a simple conversation and exchange of opinions as something more than it is? It's all a bit odd.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Provide a source that shows I am wrong, wait you fucking won’t because you never have sources. You only post some bullshit and expect to be respected. Prove me wrong.



Lol, I read your sources.  Did you?  Get a grip.  

Lacius already "gently corrected" you about your claim about natural immunity, and it was what Russell was being specific about--with cited references.

Choosing to remain ignorant is kind of your problem.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 13, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Lol, I read your sources.  Did you?  Get a grip.
> 
> Lacius already "gently corrected" you about your claim about natural immunity, and it was what Russell was being specific about--with cited references.
> 
> Choosing to remain ignorant is kind of your problem.


It's not that I wasn't aware of anything, it's that I've stopped trying to give decent replies to your posts because I know you won't do the same for anyone else.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> It's not that I wasn't aware of anything, it's that I've stopped trying to give decent replies to your posts because I know you won't do the same for anyone else.


Oh, so you are *just pretending* to give disinformation.   I've been trolled.   Who is "TheCatBoy"?


----------



## XDel (Mar 14, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Who is "TheCatBoy"?




Mind you, I sent this to him in a PM and he was offended by it, I thought it was funny.


----------



## XDel (Mar 14, 2022)

From the horse's mouth:

Doctor Yuval Noah Harari
World Economic Forum Advisor Explains The Great Reset, 4th Industrial Revolution, Transhumanism, and the Gene-Editing Agenda. Technopoly "FREE WILL IS OVER"


----------



## XDel (Mar 15, 2022)

Hilarious article for smart people!
Don’t Go Down the Rabbit Hole, From The New York Times


----------



## XDel (Mar 15, 2022)

Kevin Durant sounds off on NYC Mayor Eric Adams and the vaccine mandate


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 15, 2022)

tabzer, if you're going to go on saying that "half of your sources say [this]", please CITE the fucking sources that do so. Unless you can say which ones do what you say they do, your word has no value.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 15, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> tabzer, if you're going to go on saying that "half of your sources say [this]", please CITE the fucking sources that do so. Unless you can say which ones do what you say they do, your word has no value.


@The Catboy posted the sources.  I read them and responded.  If you want to be coy and say that the sources didn't say those things, then I would be happy to make you look like a schmuck.

Enjoy:



The Catboy said:


> Bet
> https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/jan/06/who-robert-malone-joe-rogans-guest-was-vaccine-sci/
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/arts/music/fact-check-joe-rogan-robert-malone.html
> https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...p-fact-check-a87b1044c6256968dcc33886a36c949f
> ...


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 15, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> England has effectively removed all restrictions, including the self-isolation requirement, opting instead to urge the public to practice safe behaviours and stress the importance of hygiene. After an initial spike in cases, which was to be expected, the number of deaths is steadily decreasing.


It's almost as if the restrictions were lifted only 2 weeks ago and that the lag between actions and hospitalisations was 2 weeks since the beginning of the f*ing pandemic 2 years ago. And that the lag between hospitalisation and death was also positive (making the total lag more than 2 weeks).
Incidentally, the number of intensive care patients in the UK is growing again, after 2 weeks of no restrictions. Who could have thought? 
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 15, 2022)

tabzer said:


> @The Catboy posted the sources.  I read them and responded.  If you want to be coy and say that the sources didn't say those things, then I would be happy to make you look like a schmuck.
> 
> Enjoy:


which ones? You're giving the whole bunch when you said only "half" of them said what you say they say. I'm not losing my time reading the whole thing if you cannot single out the ones that are relevant to your narrative. You're the one claiming something, you're the one who needs to cite exactly where it is, please. Like I'm trying to help you here, for once, so you can try to not be an ass and not talk to me in such a condescending way.


----------



## Foxi4 (Mar 15, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> It's almost as if the restrictions were lifted only 2 weeks ago and that the lag between actions and hospitalisations was 2 weeks since the beginning of the f*ing pandemic 2 years ago. And that the lag between hospitalisation and death was also positive (making the total lag more than 2 weeks).
> Incidentally, the number of intensive care patients in the UK is growing again, after 2 weeks of no restrictions. Who could have thought?
> https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare


We’re all well-aware of the delay between infection and possible hospitalisation. There was no observable spike in deaths and only a very moderate uptick in cases that doesn’t go beyond the variability expected from this disease. If you expected a slam dunk, it’s falling pretty flat - the last spike was observed in January. Swing and a miss. Graph below, sorted by nation, since we’re talking specifically about England and not Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. Tl;dr/How2Graph, lifting the restrictions had negligible effect, if any.




For the record, I made my post 2 weeks after the rules were relaxed (which happens to be the incubation period of the original virus, variants incubate faster), now it’s been over 3 weeks, which means that you were wrong then and you continue to be wrong now, so I’m not sure why you’re pulling the victory lap routine - the data is stacked against you. If there was going to be some sudden spike, we’d see it by now. In fact, we’d see it last week. All we saw was a moderate uptick, as I stated earlier and as I restated now.

*Edit:* I initially looked up the wrong date, it was 13 days to be exact, one day short of two weeks.


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 15, 2022)

The rules were only scrapped in the UK at the end of February though, I fail to see how an early-march post is more than 2 weeks after that.

To be exact, only rules that were scrapped early february are international arrivals, not local rules about masks and promiscuity. And that's literally what counts.


----------



## NoobletCheese (Mar 15, 2022)

I think we're past the point where citing sources will change anyone's mind.  There's a "credible" source for pretty much any claim these days, just depends which side you're on.   We're in a post-news era.   The news outlets are technically putting out true statements, but still managing to lie by omission.


----------



## Foxi4 (Mar 15, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> The rules were only scrapped in the UK at the end of February though, I fail to see how an early-march post is more than 2 weeks after that.


The restrictions were officially lifted on February 24th. I made my post March 8th. Wanna count the days together, or can you handle that? I’m counting 13 days (since February only has 28), with the NHS estimating Omicron’s incubation period to be between 3 and 5. How about now? Still failing, or just being facetious? Plenty of time for cases to start mounting, especially with this variant, and yet here we are. Initially I remembered the date of 21st, but that’s when the plan was published - it went live on the 24th, so fair enough, one day short of two weeks. Still a weak argument with Omicron in mind. Let me repeat that - 3 to 5 days. Not 2 weeks.


RocaBOT said:


> To be exact, only rules that were scrapped early february are international arrivals, not local rules about masks and promiscuity. And that's literally what counts.


Why are you telling me what rules were changed or lifted in a country *I* live in? I think I know what changed a little bit better than you do. Good grief.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ay-safe-as-covid-19-england-restrictions-lift


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 16, 2022)

Wow okay, I was slightly wrong on the duration indeed. Do you need to be so agressive though? I do not think my messages were, _good grief_.


----------



## Foxi4 (Mar 16, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> Wow okay, I was slightly wrong on the duration indeed. Do you need to be so agressive though? I do not think my messages were, _good grief_.


That’s not the impression I got - you came across as sarcastic and unnecessarily rude when the results you posted were predicted in the very same post you were quoting. If that was not your intention then I apologise, but I have low tolerance for snark, especially when what I’m saying is backed by data, not government propaganda - I’m not a huge fan of the government.

I made a very simple statement of fact - based on all available data regarding Omicron keeping the restrictions in place made no sense to the UK government, and weeks down the line we see the exact result that was expected. It’s simply not as deadly as earlier variants, it incubates fast and it’s extremely contagious, equivalent to the likes of measles. I have no doubt that most cases go completely unreported, but as I stated earlier, the gross majority are about as severe as a cold, with symptoms passing after around three days. If the point you were trying to make was that some people will die from it, you’re not wrong - some people definitely will - people die for all sorts of reasons, the question is whether it’s worth to shut the country down over it. By this point people in risk groups should’ve been vaccinated three times over, if they haven’t gone through the trouble of getting a free shot after two years, they’re clearly not intending to get one now. We can’t stay in our basements forever and pretend that this is an acceptable state of affairs, not when the risk is minimal. From a macro perspective, the value of generating herd immunity via the spread of a (comparatively speaking) benign variant, and the value of returning to a semblance of normalcy, cannot be overstated. If the data we have on Omicron is correct then for all intents and purposes this is the end game for most people - it’s over.

For the record, I wouldn’t be surprised if we *did* see record COVID deaths at some point, as seen across the pond. That’s not because Omicron is particularly deadly - it’s because it spreads like wildfire, infecting orders of magnitude more people than earlier variants. In other words, we’re dealing with a “small slice of a bigger pie” kind of situation - it’s a small subset of a larger total. Most cases will likely never be reported due to the mild nature of the infection and the fast recover time (around three days). Many people will just assume they caught a cold, they’ll never get tested and they’ll never know they had it. Of all the variants out there Omicron is by far the most preferable - most people are open to the risk of sniffles, but not open to the prospect of coughing their organs out. So, to reiterate, this is not an excuse for complacency - people should not treat this as an excuse to engage in irresponsible behaviour or to lower their hygiene standards. With that being said, we’re dealing with a very different virus now, and with the virus changing, so should the approach towards it.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 16, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> which ones? You're giving the whole bunch when you said only "half" of them said what you say they say. I'm not losing my time reading the whole thing if you cannot single out the ones that are relevant to your narrative. You're the one claiming something, you're the one who needs to cite exactly where it is, please. Like I'm trying to help you here, for once, so you can try to not be an ass and not talk to me in such a condescending way.


So, I'm obligated to read the sources but you are not.  If you want to *not *back the sources that you didn't read, you are free to do that.  Also, I agree, wasted my time.  It turns out it wasn't genuine, but shit-flinging.


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 16, 2022)

For the record, I take good care to only cite their data page, and not any page where the government shows their opinion or decisions. Especially because I know said decisions and presented arguments in favour are biased towards their narrative, as is the case with *any* decisionary body. The raw data can at least be looked at without needing to go through the prism of their tendencies and their 'living with covid' or whatever the current argument is at the time (if looking in the past or the future).
I can understand having low tolerance, sorry if it did appear the way you saw it, perhaps my choice of words was not the best it could have been.
The point still stands, once it grows enough to throw current care capacity (which we already established is limited by the number of care workers and is not just a covid problem), we'll have issues getting healthcare again, and it will have to be tackled again. Pretending otherwise that everything will be all good and well forever is at best a sour dream, I'm afraid.

And yes, there is an issue issue with communication of many world governments and decisionary bodies that are unable to be truthful and trustworthy, which makes people do anything to not listen and to invent whatever conspiracy is good for them even in the face of reality. Ultimately however, the problem is still everyone's problem, like for any other preventable illness. Our luck is that it's not as deadly as some others, but still, it causes problems and it'd be nice to handle that on the long term once and for all, instead of relying on short-term patches forever and declaring that it's magically over after 2 years for no valid reason.


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 16, 2022)

*snipped quote to removed post* 

For one, maybe you want to tone it down a bit. Moderation decisions are rarely made alone and you have channels to contact the moderation if you want something checked and sorted, if memory serves.
Next, maybe instead of just posting a video, you could have explained with proper words what it is about, because the name itself is frequently used by random conspiracy theories about whatever. So there is reason to have a bias about said words if you give no context. And you should have expected that and taken the front by explaining first and beforehand to avoid that, imo.
Like if it is serious, expose the actual arguments instead of linking to the video and adding nothing of your own? Because otherwise, yes, if the thing sounds like random bullshit with nothing to show otherwise, the mods have power to take action, they're here for that. Publicly ranting about mod decision is not a solution, it's a temper tantrum at best.


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> So, I'm obligated to read the sources but you are not.  If you want to *not *back the sources that you didn't read, you are free to do that.  Also, I agree, wasted my time.  It turns out it wasn't genuine, but shit-flinging.


I'm not the one stating that the sources say something. You are, which means you already read them. Please don't deform my argument in what it is not, especially when I'm not the one who brought in said sources in the first place.

For fuck's sake, you're the one pretending to have read them, and now you're throwing a tantrum because I ask you to point me in the direction you say you read something because I do not have the time to look at the whole of them if only half say what you say they say? This is ridiculous man, get a grip of yourself!


----------



## XDel (Mar 16, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> For one, maybe you want to tone it down a bit. Moderation decisions are rarely made alone and you have channels to contact the moderation if you want something checked and sorted, if memory serves.
> Next, maybe instead of just posting a video, you could have explained with proper words what it is about, because the name itself is frequently used by random conspiracy theories about whatever. So there is reason to have a bias about said words if you give no context. And you should have expected that and taken the front by explaining first and beforehand to avoid that, imo.
> Like if it is serious, expose the actual arguments instead of linking to the video and adding nothing of your own? Because otherwise, yes, if the thing sounds like random bullshit with nothing to show otherwise, the mods have power to take action, they're here for that. Publicly ranting about mod decision is not a solution, it's a temper tantrum at best.



I believe the title and organization which was posting the original video alone should show that they are in no way affiliated with any web site or organization focused upon conspiracy or coincidence research, and rather was a video made with the global economy in mind. 
Given the DRASTIC changes that the world has allowed itself to endure in the name of a virus that has an exceptionally high survival rate, it becomes which clear that while watching, the lock downs, the "vaccine" mandates, and so forth, all effect the welfare of global economics and the people imprisoned to it. 

If these words elude half of the MODs on this site, then that is not a fault of mine, but of their cognitive abilities or disabilities there in. 

As for explaining my self and where I am coming from each and every post...
...I have been here for years, I already have a reputation, people kind of know what to expect from me and basically where I am coming from because of all my other posts and videos. I really don't have time to break my self down and re-iterate every single post. I am not trying to be a prick but dem's da facts.


----------



## Alexander1970 (Mar 16, 2022)

My Wife (37) got Covid too - Stupid little Thing
She has reacted a little different
 from my (also stupid Man - 52) Symptoms (only a little tired) but everything is fine.
Best Friend (stupid Man too - 59) has a little more (coughing and headache) but not more and is fine.
My "Maid of Honor" has no Symptoms...stupid little Girl (42).
Me Wifes Female College (stupid Woman - 35) had little Headache and was tired,nothing more.
and with many more (stupid) People who I had "Covid Conversation" in the last 4 Weeks....
......
By the Way,we/they are all unvaccinated  - stupid People.


5 stupid Humans - 5 different Reactions.
Why shouldn't that also be true with regard to this
"It helps *everyone*,it is safe for *everyone* and is equal for *everyone* " Vaccination Thing ?
(This Time I do not forget to push the sarcasm Button to OFF *click*)


----------



## appleburger (Mar 16, 2022)

Alexander1970 said:


> My Wife (37) got Covid too - Stupid little Thing
> She has reacted a little different
> from my (also stupid Man - 52) Symptoms (only a little tired) but everything is fine.
> Best Friend (stupid Man too - 59) has a little more (coughing and headache) but not more and is fine.
> ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size_determination

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence


----------



## AncientBoi (Mar 16, 2022)

On the news this morning, they said doctors were contemplating a 4th shot for us seniors. WTF. I got my 3. Sheesh. Now it's getting ridiculous in my book.


----------



## Hayato213 (Mar 16, 2022)

AncientBoi said:


> On the news this morning, they said doctors were contemplating a 4th shot for us seniors. WTF. I got my 3. Sheesh. Now it's getting ridiculous in my book.



Looks like it is going to be one shot  every six months or so, @AncientBoi you to the front of the line


----------



## AncientBoi (Mar 16, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> Looks like it is going to be one shot  every six months or so, @AncientBoi you to the front of the line




Is there a flip the middle finger emoji I can use on you? lol


----------



## Hayato213 (Mar 16, 2022)

AncientBoi said:


> Is there a flip the middle finger emoji I can use on you? lol



Lol don't worry I would be getting my fourth shot in May.


----------



## AncientBoi (Mar 16, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> Lol don't worry I would be getting my fourth shot in May.




Nope. Not me. For my birthday present? Fuq no! lol


----------



## tabzer (Mar 17, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> I'm not the one stating that the sources say something. You are, which means you already read them. Please don't deform my argument in what it is not, especially when I'm not the one who brought in said sources in the first place.
> 
> For fuck's sake, you're the one pretending to have read them, and now you're throwing a tantrum because I ask you to point me in the direction you say you read something because I do not have the time to look at the whole of them if only half say what you say they say? This is ridiculous man, get a grip of yourself!



I'm not throwing a tantrum.  Even if you dipped what little time you spent complaining into checking them, you'd have something to talk about.  My characterization of the hit-pieces are for those who would peruse them, skim them, or lean on them at all.  Who are you?  You went from "I don't believe you" to "you are lying" when has already been apparent from the beginning that I addressed substantive points of the articles.  Do you think I made it up?  If your problem is the volume of the content, I didn't post it.  I do agree that it would be an act of generosity to spend time reading it.  I fail to see my obligation in doing so, again, on your behalf.

I've mentioned one point of particular interest that has yet to be addressed here.  That was about the nature of toxicity of the pseudo spike-proteins.  I think that topic, which was one of the more serious sources of contention, is more interesting than your outrage.


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Mar 18, 2022)

For a matter of clear pointing out, the OG papers causing this whole anti-vax movement was a doctor who had his license pulled ages ago trying to link vaccines and autism. This gained traction when an ex-playboy star was looking for a reason why her kid has autism and spend the effort to point the finger at rather than just taking care of their damn kid.

Ive met more stable minded folk who were considered "on the spectrum" more than I have met those who were anti-vax. Paranoia fueled with misinformation based on what they want to look for to apply their belief of narrative rots the brain faster than any kind of drug ever could. You don't want to learn or accept any actual truth, you rather believe in some crazy ass narrative because it feels better to point the finger and blame something or someone for things that just unfortunately exists in nature or in the general world. I mean shit, its 2022 and the rise of people thinking the earth is flat is almost on the same level of rise as the anti-vax movement. You people need to unglue yourselves from conspiracy chats and websites and go outside.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 19, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> For a matter of clear pointing out, the OG papers causing this whole anti-vax movement was a doctor who had his license pulled ages ago trying to link vaccines and autism. This gained traction when an ex-playboy star was looking for a reason why her kid has autism and spend the effort to point the finger at rather than just taking care of their damn kid.
> 
> Ive met more stable minded folk who were considered "on the spectrum" more than I have met those who were anti-vax. Paranoia fueled with misinformation based on what they want to look for to apply their belief of narrative rots the brain faster than any kind of drug ever could. You don't want to learn or accept any actual truth, you rather believe in some crazy ass narrative because it feels better to point the finger and blame something or someone for things that just unfortunately exists in nature or in the general world. I mean shit, its 2022 and the rise of people thinking the earth is flat is almost on the same level of rise as the anti-vax movement. You people need to unglue yourselves from conspiracy chats and websites and go outside.



"Correlation does not imply causation."

"Look guys, the vaccine works!"

I'd say you should only choose one, lest you are being greedy.  But we are past that point.


----------



## RocaBOT (Mar 19, 2022)

1. That's not how vaccines work. It's never in the bloodstream, it's injected in muscle tissue for a reason.
2. Don't post bullcrap like that without any source, especially when it's trying to copy an "official-looking" type of writing, yet full of disinformation.

You're not helping anyone by spreading this kind of nonsense, if anything you're giving more invalid reasons for people to be afraid of something that's neither happening nor dangerous.


----------



## tabzer (Mar 20, 2022)

-Poor NHS
-Pfizer's heroic journey
-NYT "spreading conspiracy"


----------



## tabzer (Mar 25, 2022)

Because Covid isn't dead yet, some countries are offering a 4th booster.  Will you get it?


----------



## subcon959 (Mar 25, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Because Covid isn't dead yet, some countries are offering a 4th booster.  Will you get it?


Nope, now that I've got natural immunity I reckon I'm good for a while.


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 27, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> 1. That's not how vaccines work. It's never in the bloodstream, it's injected in muscle tissue for a reason.
> 2. Don't post bullcrap like that without any source, especially when it's trying to copy an "official-looking" type of writing, yet full of disinformation.
> 
> You're not helping anyone by spreading this kind of nonsense, if anything you're giving more invalid reasons for people to be afraid of something that's neither happening nor dangerous.


His sources are YouTube funny man, misquotes, or something he made the fuck up. That’s all they’ve ever been


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 30, 2022)

Got my booster shot!


----------



## tabzer (Mar 30, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Got my booster shot!


3rd or 4th?


----------



## Lacius (Mar 30, 2022)

tabzer said:


> 3rd or 4th?


In the United States, people 50+ in age and people who are immunocompromised just became eligible for their second booster. That would be a fourth dose (if starting with the mRNA vaccines).


----------



## The Catboy (Mar 30, 2022)

Lacius said:


> In the United States, people 50+ in age and people who are immunocompromised just became eligible for their second booster. That would be a fourth dose (if starting with the mRNA vaccines).


Although not 50, I am immunocompromised and was just able to get my booster. Moderna was the one my doctor recommended and the one the pharmacy used when they were informed that t I am immunocompromised.


----------



## Deleted member 587857 (Apr 1, 2022)

-


----------



## AsPika2219 (Apr 10, 2022)

Get ready for newest omicron xe variant... detected at Thailand....


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2022)




----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> His sources are YouTube funny man, misquotes, or something he made the fuck up. That’s all they’ve ever been


I don't know what the temper you're replying to is talking about, and I am not going to get into it, it may be BS or not.

But if by "YouTube funny man" you mean Russell Brand I would suggest you don't just lightly disqualify him based on prejudice.
He is very well researched and his videos are not a joke, really.

You may agree or disagree with what he says, but in any case I would say that instead of just automatically disqualifying what he says because "he is a comedian", you at least first check the videos, check perhaps many of them, check many of his sources by yourself and don't jump to conclusions and prejudice before doing that. Then if you disagree it comes at least from a valid position, that of someone that at least knows what they are disagreeing with, and not just because of prejudice.


----------



## sith (Apr 13, 2022)

if you cant see that these jabs are useless, harmful experimental garbage that actually increase your chances of getting sick with covid and other illnesses at this point you are sleeping. 



snip from my government website https://covid-19.ontario.ca/

the more vax doses the more positive cases. next chart down deaths are equal across all statuses. wake up to reality.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2022)

sarkwalvein said:


> I don't know what the temper you're replying to is talking about, and I am not going to get into it, it may be BS or not.
> 
> But if by "YouTube funny man" you mean Russell Brand I would suggest you don't just lightly disqualify him based on prejudice.
> He is very well researched and his videos are not a joke, really.
> ...


I disqualify him because he's not actually a professional. I will give him a listen but I don't care to consider his input on this topic. I am not against him sharing his research and I am not saying he didn't do his research but I am saying that he's not a valid source of information and there's no reason to present him as such. Presenting him as a counter to medical research is silly.


----------



## SG854 (Apr 13, 2022)

sith said:


> if you cant see that these jabs are useless, harmful experimental garbage that actually increase your chances of getting sick with covid and other illnesses at this point you are sleeping.
> View attachment 306093snip from my government website https://covid-19.ontario.ca/
> 
> the more vax doses the more positive cases. next chart down deaths are equal across all statuses. wake up to reality.


There's a saying statistics lie. Especially if you don't properly interpret them. 

Obviously Vaccines do not increase your chance of getting covid. That is


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 13, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I disqualify him because he's not actually a professional. I will give him a listen but I don't care to consider his input on this topic. I am not against him sharing his research and I am not saying he didn't do his research but I am saying that he's not a valid source of information and there's no reason to present him as such. Presenting him as a counter to medical research is silly.


He has been doing journalistic work for years in his YouTube channels. If we go for the "5 years make an expert" then he is not only professional in this, but he is also an expert. He is not new to this job, he had the Trews before this, he didn't start presenting news out of thin air. Of course his research is journalistic, and he is presenting sources. Scientific research is not performed by him in any case, but it is part of the sources for the journalistic research and properly quoted. You should check what he reports about before jumping to conclusions.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 13, 2022)

sarkwalvein said:


> He has been doing journalistic work since years for his YouTube channel. If we go for the "5 years make an expert" then he is not only professional in this, but he is also an expert. He is not new to this job, he had the Trews before this, he didn't start presenting news out of thin air. Of course his research is journalistic, and he is presenting sources. Scientific research is not performed by him in any case, but it is the part of the sources for the journalistic research. You should check what he reports about before jumping to conclusions.


He's a professional journalist, but I wouldn't call him a professional nor an expert in vaccines. I can say he's at least got a greater understanding but I still won't look to him for advice on vaccines. I will admit my previous comments were a bit harsh though.



sith said:


> if you cant see that these jabs are useless, harmful experimental garbage that actually increase your chances of getting sick with covid and other illnesses at this point you are sleeping.
> View attachment 306093snip from my government website https://covid-19.ontario.ca/
> 
> the more vax doses the more positive cases. next chart down deaths are equal across all statuses. wake up to reality.





> About this data
> For COVID-19 cases by vaccination status, vaccination status is limited to Health Canada approved vaccines.
> 
> Rate per 100,000 (7-day average) is the average rate of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 for each vaccination status for the previous 7 days as noted. Rate of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 is calculated by dividing the number of cases for a vaccination status, by the total number of people with the same vaccination status, and then multiplying by 100,000.


Cherrypicking results to back up your claims and removing the limitation warning is just silly. There's more than just one study with fewer limitations and those studies seem to show different results.
https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/corona...irginia/covid-19-cases-by-vaccination-status/
https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm
https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/vaccination-status/
Now yes, people who are vaccinated can still get covid, but those vaccinated and boosted have shown greater recovery rates, fewer long-term side effects, and overall not dying compared to unvaccinated people. The difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated is the rate of death, something found far higher in the unvaccinated crowd.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 13, 2022)

sith said:


> if you cant see that these jabs are useless, harmful experimental garbage that actually increase your chances of getting sick with covid and other illnesses at this point you are sleeping.
> snip from my government website https://covid-19.ontario.ca/
> 
> the more vax doses the more positive cases. next chart down deaths are equal across all statuses. wake up to reality.


When cases are low, you're mostly limited to people who are immunocompromised, etc. who are dying. These are also people who are fully vaccinated/boosted, but the vaccine is less effective if you don't have an immune system to work with. This is why you see the death numbers you mentioned. Click the 60+ age group for the death numbers you just mentioned, and you will see how the unvaccinated are the most susceptible. Expand out to something that isn't the last seven days (when the infection rate was higher), and you can see the unvaccinated are the most susceptible regardless of age group.

Facts should lead to conclusions, not the other way around. The vaccines save lives.


----------



## sith (Apr 13, 2022)

Every one of you straw man, intentionally "misuderstand" or straight up deny in the face of reason. I didn't cheery pick, its just my local site, i didn't exclude any warning, it says in the sidebar how its calculated and gave a link to the site. 60+ are literally the only age group that doesn't follow this correlation, the graph i posted is all time (30 days) not 7.  I somewhat agree, the vaccine due to it's self replicating nature didn't accomplish the same end result (more vulnerability to sars-cov2) in the oldest population.

OT: Russell Brand is genuine, brilliant and bold, with wisdom, love and kindness he looks at things very objectively and makes sound conclusions. His detractors are full of shit. 

edit (removed an incorrect statement, misread a graph)


----------



## Lacius (Apr 13, 2022)

sith said:


> Every one of you straw man, intentionally "misuderstand" or straight up deny in the face of reason. I didn't cheery pick, its just my local site, i didn't exclude any warning, it says in the sidebar how its calculated and gave a link to the site. 60+ are literally the only age group that doesn't follow this correlation, the graph i posted is all time (30 days) not 7.  I somewhat agree, the vaccine due to it's self replicating nature didn't accomplish the same end result (more vulnerability to sars-cov2) in the oldest population.
> 
> OT: Russell Brand is genuine, brilliant and bold, with wisdom, love and kindness he looks at things very objectively and makes sound conclusions. His detractors are full of shit.
> 
> edit (removed an incorrect statement, misread a graph)


I explained to you why the data is what you should expect from an effective vaccine. There's only one person in denial, and it isn't us.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 14, 2022)

Lacius said:


> There's only one person in denial, and it isn't us.



Hmm, hivemind.  Nice.



The Catboy said:


> He's a professional journalist, but I wouldn't call him a professional nor an expert in vaccines.



Nobody has ever presented him as such.  You are being disingenuous.  Why should anybody listen to you?



sarkwalvein said:


> I don't know what the temper you're replying to is talking about, and I am not going to get into it, it may be BS or not.



They were talking about something hopefulfrog said, now deleted, and now it looks like it is about something I said.  I'm not sure if TheCatBoy intentionally made it about me or not.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 14, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Hmm, hivemind.  Nice.


Resistance is futile. Viral resistance, I mean. And if you're vaccinated. Ah, nevermind.

@godreborn would have liked it.


----------



## Stone_Wings (Apr 14, 2022)

The right can SAY whatever they'd like. But when QAnon is now spouting shit like the vaccine contains snake blood so that they can inject us with Satans DNA and with Fox News and the GOP jumping on the Putin train, NOTHING they say has an ounce of validity in my book. NOTHING.


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Apr 14, 2022)

Stone_Wings said:


> The right can SAY whatever they'd like. But when QAnon is now spouting shit like the vaccine contains snake blood so that they can inject us with Satans DNA and with Fox News and the GOP jumping on the Putin train, NOTHING they say has an ounce of validity in my book. NOTHING.


Anyone who takes the words of Q even remotely seriously has far more issues than their political alignment, they are people that need to be put in mental facilities.

Q literally was born from a *chan board. A Channer that was spouting such crazy shit the other anons told him to take his shit elsewhere, which he did...to facebook and other social media platforms. Believing in Q is like believing The Onion as legitimate news and not being aware that its parody/satire on news. To truly believe in any of that is a failure of any form of critical thinking and need to be seriously treated as those who need serious mental care.


----------



## Stone_Wings (Apr 14, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> Anyone who takes the words of Q even remotely seriously has far more issues than their political alignment, they are people that need to be put in mental facilities.
> 
> Q literally was born from a *chan board. A Channer that was spouting such crazy shit the other anons told him to take his shit elsewhere, which he did...to facebook and other social media platforms. Believing in Q is like believing The Onion as legitimate news and not being aware that its parody/satire on news. To truly believe in any of that is a failure of any form of critical thinking and need to be seriously treated as those who need serious mental care.



I shouldn't say NOTHING the right says has any validity as they certainly aren't all QAnon supporters. I'll retract my prior statement and change it to "little to nothing".


----------



## tabzer (Apr 14, 2022)

Both of you are very special and speak to the credibility of this thread, of this website, and maybe even America.


----------



## djpannda (Apr 15, 2022)

..Sounds about right...


----------



## tabzer (Apr 16, 2022)

djpannda said:


> ..Sounds about right...




Did the guy try it and it didn't work for him?  Wondering who determines that something is false.  Maybe his piss saves lives.  Why don't you try it?


----------



## Lacius (Apr 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Did the guy try it and it didn't work for him?  Wondering who determines that something is false.  Maybe his piss saves lives.  Why don't you try it?


You first.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Did the guy try it and it didn't work for him?  Wondering who determines that something is false.  Maybe his piss saves lives.  Why don't you try it?


I would suggest if you have confidence, you give it a try.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 16, 2022)

Lacius said:


> You first.


I said someone had to be first to call it false to begin with.  Who was deceived?  Nobody?  The people complaining about it?



The Catboy said:


> I would suggest if you have confidence, you give it a try.


Learn to read.  You are severely ill-equipped to win this pissing-contest.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I said someone had to be first to call it false to begin with.  Who was deceived?  Nobody?  The people complaining about it?


The problem is that drinking urine, anybody's urine, hasn't been demonstrated to cure COVID-19, so it's recklessly idiotic to recommend it. If that wasn't bad enough, the recommendation occurred while simultaneously rejecting vaccination, something that has actually been demonstrated to be effective at reducing COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and death.

In other words, we don't recommend treatments just because they haven't been disproven to work. We recommend treatments when they've been proven to work. It's like accepting or rejecting a claim to be true. We accept claims to be true when there's evidence for them. We do not accept claims to be true just because they haven't been disproven.

Also, drinking urine is gross. However, I have a feeling the former president wouldn't have thought so.

Edit: And just to be clear, the urine thing is made more laughably ridiculous because there's no established mechanism by which drinking urine would even come close to treating COVID-19.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 16, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The problem is that drinking urine, anybody's urine, hasn't been demonstrated to cure COVID-19, so it's recklessly idiotic to recommend it. If that wasn't bad enough, the recommendation occurred while simultaneously rejecting vaccination, something that has actually been demonstrated to be effective at reducing COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and death.
> 
> In other words, we don't recommend treatments just because they haven't been disproven to work. We recommend treatments when they've been proven to work. It's like accepting or rejecting a claim to be true. We accept claims to be true when there's evidence for them. We do not accept claims to be true just because they haven't been disproven.
> 
> Also, drinking urine is gross. However, I have a feeling the former president wouldn't have thought so.



Posting claims or counter-claims isn't "dismissing" them.  I was perfectly ok without it being brought up.  Someone thought it was important enough to weigh in on it.  A reporter claimed it was false, so I am curious who tested it.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Posting claims or counter-claims isn't "dismissing" them.  I was perfectly ok without it being brought up.  Someone thought it was important enough to weigh in on it.  A reporter claimed it was false, so I am curious who tested it.


I can say with confidence that, as far as we are aware, the claim that drinking urine cures COVID-19 is, in fact, false.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I said someone had to be first to call it false to begin with.  Who was deceived?  Nobody?  The people complaining about it?
> 
> 
> Learn to read.  You are severely ill-equipped to win this pissing-contest.


I happen to sit when I piss, so by default I don't think I was going to win this content from the start. I did read your post and assumed it was something you would take seriously because you refuse to take actual science seriously.


tabzer said:


> Posting claims or counter-claims isn't "dismissing" them.  I was perfectly ok without it being brought up.  Someone thought it was important enough to weigh in on it.  A reporter claimed it was false, so I am curious who tested it.


Has urine actually cured anything?


----------



## tabzer (Apr 16, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I happen to sit when I piss, so by default I don't think I was going to win this content from the start. I did read your post and assumed it was something you would take seriously because you refuse to take actual science seriously.
> 
> Has urine actually cured anything?



I am perfectly fine with saying I don't know.  I haven't tested it.  However, I am aware that people think so, or at least think it has some effect on regulating metabolism.  Animals do it, and it is something I wonder about.  I don't have a scientific conclusion.



Lacius said:


> I can say with confidence that, as far as we are aware, the claim that drinking urine cures COVID-19 is, in fact, false.



Is that how science works?  Theory isn't tested so it is defaulted as "false"?  My question remains.  Who do you trust that has sampled Christopher Key's urine?


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I am perfectly fine with saying I don't know.  I haven't tested it.  However, I am aware that people think so, or at least think it has some effect on regulating metabolism.  Animals do it, and it is something I wonder about.  I don't have a scientific conclusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that how science works?  Theory isn't tested so it is defaulted as "false"?  My question remains.  Who do you trust that has sampled Christopher Key's urine?


Science isn’t blindly throwing stuff at a wall until it sticks. The fact that you don’t know what a scientific theory actually stands for is very telling. That being said, we know urine won’t work because there’s no medicinal properties to urine. There’s no reason to waste time nor resources on something that has never proven to do anything other than be expelled waste.


----------



## subcon959 (Apr 16, 2022)

Well, this has taken a weird turn.


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 16, 2022)

The Science is developing mRNA injections to treat heart attacks caused by the previous mRNA injections. What a time to be alive!

Scientists discover world's first cure for heart attacks using the same mRNA technology as Covid vaccines


----------



## Lacius (Apr 16, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Is that how science works?  Theory isn't tested so it is defaulted as "false"?  My question remains.  Who do you trust that has sampled Christopher Key's urine?


We don't have to try the urine to say, as far as we know, the urine doesn't work. It isn't like we know nothing about urine or COVID-19. If you want to argue it does work, let me know how it tastes while you're at it.

While we are on the topic of how science works, we test hypotheses, not theories.



subcon959 said:


> Well, this has taken a weird turn.


I'm comfortable blaming the nutjobs who drink their own urine.



Glyptofane said:


> The Science is developing mRNA injections to treat heart attacks caused by the previous mRNA injections. What a time to be alive!
> 
> Scientists discover world's first cure for heart attacks using the same mRNA technology as Covid vaccines


There's no evidence of mRNA injections causing "heart attacks."


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 16, 2022)

Lacius said:


> There's no evidence of mRNA injections causing "heart attack."


Confirmed side effects like blood clots and myocarditis do cause heart attacks. Only the prevalence is really in question anymore.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 16, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> Confirmed side effects like blood clots and myocarditis do cause heart attacks. Only the prevalence is really in question anymore.


The clots are not associated with mRNA vaccines. I'm unaware of any evidence that any mRNA vaccine that has resulted in myocarditis has caused a heart attack.

You need to get your facts straight.


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 16, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The clots are not associated with mRNA vaccines. I'm unaware of any evidence that any mRNA vaccine that has resulted in myocarditis has caused a heart attack.
> 
> You need to get your facts straight.


Clots can form from myocarditis and then result in heart attack or stroke. I shouldn't have to explain the entire process of heart disease. I guess you are only thinking of the instantaneous clotting associated with J&J?


----------



## Lacius (Apr 16, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> Clots can form from myocarditis and then result in heart attack or stroke. I shouldn't have to explain the entire process of heart disease. I guess you are only thinking of the instantaneous clotting associated with J&J?


As I already said, there is no evidence of these things (clots and heart attacks) with the mRNA vaccines.


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 16, 2022)

Lacius said:


> As I already said, there is no evidence of these things (clots and heart attacks) with the mRNA vaccines.


Fantastic. The FDA and CDC did identify increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA vaccines, so I guess I'll just have to take your word for it.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 16, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> Fantastic. The FDA and CDC did identify increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following mRNA vaccines, so I guess I'll just have to take your word for it.


They identified a very small risk of myocarditis, not "clots and heart attacks." The risk of myocarditis with actual COVID-19 is significantly higher, FYI.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 16, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> Clots can form from myocarditis and then result in heart attack or stroke. I shouldn't have to explain the entire process of heart disease. I guess you are only thinking of the instantaneous clotting associated with J&J?


Sources? Do you have sources? It seems like there should be a spike in heart attacks and strokes since the vaccines went public, is there a spike, and do the sources link back to the mRNA vaccines?


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 17, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Sources? Do you have sources? It seems like there should be a spike in heart attacks and strokes since the vaccines went public, is there a spike, and do the sources link back to the mRNA vaccines?


You want sources for the complications of myocarditis and stages of heart disease now? What a joke.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> You want sources for the complications of myocarditis and stages of heart disease now? What a joke.


If you are going to claim that the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines can lead to heart-related complications not limited to myocarditis, you need to provide sources. Your posts are, by definition, ridiculous without them.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> You want sources for the complications of myocarditis and stages of heart disease now? What a joke.


You made the claim, there should be sources to back up that claim. If the vaccines are causing heart attacks and strokes, there should be a noticeable uptick since the vaccines went public.


Glyptofane said:


> The Science is developing mRNA injections to treat *heart attacks caused by the previous mRNA injections*. What a time to be alive!
> 
> Scientists discover world's first cure for heart attacks using the same mRNA technology as Covid vaccines





Glyptofane said:


> *Clots can form from myocarditis and then result in heart attack or stroke*. I shouldn't have to explain the entire process of heart disease. I guess you are only thinking of the instantaneous clotting associated with J&J?



This is your post making that claim. I even politely highlighted your claim in case you forgot you said this.


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> If you are going to claim that the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines can lead to heart-related complications not limited to myocarditis, you need to provide sources. Your posts are, by definition, ridiculous without them.





The Catboy said:


> You made the claim, there should be sources to back up that claim. If the vaccines are causing heart attacks and strokes, there should be a noticeable uptick since the vaccines went public.


It's not exactly something that's secret or hidden. That's what's ridiculous. The complications are well known and easily verified through any medical journal and the condition itself is listed in the EUA fact sheets among many other official documents.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> It's not exactly something that's secret or hidden. That's what's ridiculous. The complications are well known and easily verified through any medical journal and the condition itself is listed in the EUA fact sheets among many other official documents.


If sources are so readily available, then please post a reputable source showing that there are heart-related complications that aren't myocarditis and pericarditis, like heart attacks, associated with the mRNA vaccines. Please and thank you.

Given the research I'm aware of, there isn't any evidence a single person has suffered a heart attack as a result of the mRNA vaccines. I'm hard pressed to find evidence a single person has died from the mRNA vaccines for any reason.


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Apr 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Given the research I'm aware of, there isn't any evidence a single person has suffered a heart attack *as a result of the mRNA vaccines*. I'm hard pressed to find evidence a single person has died from the mRNA vaccines for any reason.


That's the key phrase there. The one highlighted. "As a result". Which is what a lot of these folks seems to ignore.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> It's not exactly something that's secret or hidden. That's what's ridiculous. The complications are well known and easily verified through any medical journal and the condition itself is listed in the EUA fact sheets among many other official documents.


Then it shouldn't be too hard to provide a link then.


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 17, 2022)

LinkmstrYT said:


> That's the key phrase there. The one highlighted. "As a result". Which is what a lot of these folks seems to ignore.





The Catboy said:


> Then it shouldn't be too hard to provide a link then.


It's not some extraordinary claim or conspiracy theory that heart disease causes heart attack and stroke which is why I can't in good conscience entertain your feigned ignorance/mind games or whatever it is on the matter.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> It's not some extraordinary claim or conspiracy theory that heart disease causes heart attack and stroke which is why I can't in good conscience entertain your feigned ignorance/mind games or whatever it is on the matter.


It is an extraordinary, conspiratorial, and unsubstantiated claim that the COVID-19 vaccines increase the frequency of heart attacks.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> It's not some extraordinary claim or conspiracy theory that heart disease causes heart attack and stroke which is why I can't in good conscience entertain your feigned ignorance/mind games or whatever it is on the matter.


Cool, then you should just be able to provide a link. Why is that so hard for you to do? This is a very simple request. If what you are saying is true, then there should be at least one link that you can provide


----------



## tabzer (Apr 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> We don't have to try the urine to say, as far as we know, the urine doesn't work. It isn't like we know nothing about urine or COVID-19. If you want to argue it does work, let me know how it tastes while you're at it.
> 
> While we are on the topic of how science works, we test hypotheses, not theories.



You'd have to try the urine. More specifically, Christopher Key's urine. Otherwise, you can say "as far as we_ don't_ know...", or "we don't think it works". Saying it is "false" or, more specifically, saying "it doesn't work" is a hypothesis. I want to know about those test results.



The Catboy said:


> Science isn’t blindly throwing stuff at a wall until it sticks.


I never claimed that about science and you are misrepresenting my point.  I understand your skepticism about drinking urine to cure Covid.  I don't believe it is works.  However, when someone _knows_ "it doesn't work", then I am curious about how they know. Do they drink (Christopher Key's) urine every day and still catch covid? Maybe they caught Covid, but thanks to drinking (Christopher Key's) urine the symptoms were less dangerous.

If the urine could be patented, then maybe it could be just as effective (and profitable) as a fourth boost.


----------



## djpannda (Apr 17, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You'd have to try the urine. More specifically, Christopher Key's urine. Otherwise, you can say "as far as we_ don't_ know...", or "we don't think it works". Saying it is "false" or, more specifically, saying "it doesn't work" is a hypothesis. I want to know about those test results.
> 
> 
> I never claimed that about science and you are misrepresenting my point.  I understand your skepticism about drinking urine to cure Covid.  I don't believe it is works.  However, when someone _knows_ "it doesn't work", then I am curious about how they know. Do they drink (Christopher Key's) urine every day and still catch covid? Maybe they caught Covid, but thanks to drinking (Christopher Key's) urine the symptoms were less dangerous.
> ...



I’m still waiting for your Personal review on how your urine taste.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You'd have to try the urine. More specifically, Christopher Key's urine. Otherwise, you can say "as far as we_ don't_ know...", or "we don't think it works". Saying it is "false" or, more specifically, saying "it doesn't work" is a hypothesis. I want to know about those test results.
> 
> 
> I never claimed that about science and you are misrepresenting my point.  I understand your skepticism about drinking urine to cure Covid.  I don't believe it is works.  However, when someone _knows_ "it doesn't work", then I am curious about how they know. Do they drink (Christopher Key's) urine every day and still catch covid? Maybe they caught Covid, but thanks to drinking (Christopher Key's) urine the symptoms were less dangerous.
> ...



It should could as no great shock that I'm uninterested in arguing the semantic difference between "as far as we know" and "as far as we don't know," lol.


----------



## Glyptofane (Apr 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> They identified a very small risk of myocarditis, not "clots and heart attacks." The risk of myocarditis with actual COVID-19 is significantly higher, FYI.


This is a consideration I have wondered about. There are several studies associating heart damage with the spike protein itself whether the virus is present or not, but we were initially assured this didn't apply to the spike protein produced by the vaccines as it would mainly stay localized to the injection site and lymphatic system, never entering circulation.

The first hints this might have been off were the myocarditis cases. There was some thinking that maybe this only occurred in cases where injections accidentally hit veins instead of muscle tissue.

Then there was a Japanese study on Pfizer biodistribution which showed that this isn't the case and it does in fact enter circulation and ends up producing spike protein in several major organs. That was the one about the ovaries. If all of this is accurate then the spike protein from both the virus and the vaccine would be capable of causing vascular damage and perhaps more.



Lacius said:


> It is an extraordinary, conspiratorial, and unsubstantiated claim that the COVID-19 vaccines increase the frequency of heart attacks.


They cause myocarditis which is a very serious heart condition. I know the media makes it sound like mild inflammation that resolves and that's that, but it's dead heart tissue. There's a lot more to it that can kill in its initial onset or develop into chronic heart disease. Reading up more on the condition itself, I'm actually a bit shocked and aghast that it's seemingly even worse than I initially made it sound.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 17, 2022)

djpannda said:


> I’m still waiting for your Personal review on how your urine taste.


So that's the dealbreaker when it comes to serving the greater community and taking the shot?  Why so selfish?  _As far as I know_, it tastes delicious.



Lacius said:


> It should could as no great shock that I'm uninterested in arguing the semantic difference between "as far as we know" and "as far as we don't know," lol.



Well the real focus was on the difference between "unsubstantiated", "inconclusive", and "false", but it isn't surprising seeing as subtlety tends to break your script.  Someone at the daily beast drank piss (_and then caught Covid_).


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> This is a consideration I have wondered about. There are several studies associating heart damage with the spike protein itself whether the virus is present or not, but we were initially assured this didn't apply to the spike protein produced by the vaccines as it would mainly stay localized to the injection site and lymphatic system, never entering circulation.
> 
> The first hints this might have been off were the myocarditis cases. There was some thinking that maybe this only occurred in cases where injections accidentally hit veins instead of muscle tissue.
> 
> Then there was a Japanese study on Pfizer biodistribution which showed that this isn't the case and it does in fact enter circulation and ends up producing spike protein in several major organs. That was the one about the ovaries. If all of this is accurate then the spike protein from both the virus and the vaccine would be capable of causing vascular damage and perhaps more.


I am not reading that because your claims with literally no sources.


tabzer said:


> You'd have to try the urine. More specifically, Christopher Key's urine. Otherwise, you can say "as far as we_ don't_ know...", or "we don't think it works". Saying it is "false" or, more specifically, saying "it doesn't work" is a hypothesis. I want to know about those test results.
> 
> 
> I never claimed that about science and you are misrepresenting my point.  I understand your skepticism about drinking urine to cure Covid.  I don't believe it is works.  However, when someone _knows_ "it doesn't work", then I am curious about how they know. Do they drink (Christopher Key's) urine every day and still catch covid? Maybe they caught Covid, but thanks to drinking (Christopher Key's) urine the symptoms were less dangerous.
> ...



Yeah not source. Provide an actual study.


----------



## subcon959 (Apr 17, 2022)

At some point, you have to use some critical thinking and common sense, and sources are not a prerequisite (although they increasingly seem to be - I wonder if that's due to a generation that's become too reliant having Google at their fingertips at all times).

I can safely say, without needing sources, there is no way urine contains anything that can prevent or cure Covid19.

I can also just as safely say, without needing sources and based on decades of experience (not just my own) with pharmaceutical drugs, that some people have suffered heart attacks as a result of pretty much every drug ever produced - and therefore mRNA vaccines too. It's obviously not a high number (in this particular case, although it *was* for certain past medicines) for there to be much concern at this point. I also don't believe it would be trivial to prove a direct connection so doubt anyone is going to have that information available.

I think the reason there is all of this debate in the first place is because they were not transparent from the beginning. The best way to minimise conspiracy theories is to give people all the information instead of letting them fill in the blanks.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 17, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Yeah not source. Provide an actual study.


A study on what?  Are you disagreeing with something I said?



subcon959 said:


> I can safely say, without needing sources, there is no way urine contains anything that can prevent or cure Covid19.



If it's of no consequence, it wouldn't matter if you are right or wrong.  Naturally, it is safe to say.

But scientifically it is an unsubstantiated claim.  Two unsubstantiated claims doesn't make one wiser.  People aren't okay with not knowing something that they have to label everything T or F.  I would think that by the ambiguity expressed over one's own genitals and gender that nuance could be appreciated.


----------



## NoobletCheese (Apr 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> If sources are so readily available, then please post a reputable source showing that there are heart-related complications that aren't myocarditis and pericarditis, like heart attacks, associated with the mRNA vaccines. Please and thank you.



"Severe myocarditis weakens the heart so that the rest of the body doesn't get enough blood. Clots can form in the heart, leading to a stroke or heart attack." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539

FDA saying it's "possible" (page 16): https://www.fda.gov/media/143557/download

Reports of heart attacks submitted to VAERS sorted by days to onset: https://openvaers.com/covid-data/cardiac

The key there is "days to onset" which establishes a temporal association.  Obviously if 90% of the population has already been vaccinated then anyone who has a heart attack for any reason is roughly 90% likely to have been vaccinated already, so it's unremarkable if they happened to be vaccinated.   Similarly, anyone who gets food poisoning is going to be someone who eats food, but the temporal closeness of the poisoning to mealtime is what allows us to associate it with a particular meal.




Lacius said:


> I'm hard pressed to find evidence a single person has died from the mRNA vaccines for any reason.



The burden is to prove new drugs are safe, not unsafe.

Normally phase 3 trials must be completed before a drug can be deemed safe and marketed -- Pfizer's isn't due to finish until 2024: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

Actually it will never finish since the placebo group had to be given the treatment for ethical reasons -- letting them get exposed to Covid for research purposes when there is a vaccine available, is considered unethical (and justifiably so imo).   Many countries are 90%+ vaccinated now so we might not ever see a large enough placebo group.

"During the blinded, controlled period, 15 BNT162b2 and 14 placebo recipients died; during the open-label period, 3 BNT162b2 and 2 original placebo recipients who received BNT162b2 after unblinding died."
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1.full.pdf
(Doesn't prove causation between treatment and mortality, but doesn't bode well for proving safety if the treatment group is expected to have less deaths).

Conflict of interest & had to be taken to court to release their trial data.

Personally I would be willing to overlook all of this if informed consent was still a thing, and I also believe it's virtuous to volunteer to participate in a clinical trial.
____________________________________________________

Now assuming the burden is to prove the vaccines are UNsafe and caused people to die, I would presume you are already aware of VAERS mortality reports and hold the position that VAERS data is of insignificant value.  But:

"VAERS is the frontline system of a comprehensive vaccine safety monitoring program in the United States. It is one of several systems CDC and FDA use to help ensure vaccines used in the United States are closely monitored for safety."
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/vaers.html

“Healthcare providers are required by law to report to VAERS...Knowingly filing a false VAERS report is a violation of Federal law (18 U.S. Code § 1001) punishable by fine and imprisonment.” https://vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html

“After initial licensure or approval of COVID-19 vaccines in the United States, initial reports may be too few to allow for data mining immediately. As the data mature, PRR and Empirical Bayesian data mining can then be used.”
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/pdf/VAERS-v2-SOP.pdf

"Vaccine safety experts review all reports of serious adverse events submitted to VAERS...when VAERS staff members investigate a report of a serious adverse event, they ask for the patient’s medical records related to the serious adverse event to learn more about what happened"
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/vaers.html

"VAERS accepts and analyses reports of possible health problems...VAERS scientists review the reports, identify any duplicates, and attach them to the original submission."
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html

“It is generally acknowledged that adverse events are under-reported around the world, with estimates that 90-95% of adverse events are not reported to regulators”
https://www.tga.gov.au/media-release/new-web-service-helps-consumer-reporting-side-effects

“In total, 37 studies using a wide variety of surveillance methods were identified from 12 countries. These generated 43 numerical estimates of under-reporting. The median under-reporting rate across the 37 studies was 94% (interquartile range 82-98%).”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16689555/

“Underreporting is a limitation common to passive surveillance systems, including the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) that monitors the safety of U.S.-licensed vaccines...VAERS sensitivity for capturing anaphylaxis after seven different vaccines ranged from 13 to 76%; sensitivity for capturing GBS after three different vaccines ranged from 12 to 64%. For anaphylaxis, VAERS captured 13–27% of cases after the pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine, 13% of cases after influenza vaccine, 21% of cases after varicella vaccine, 24% of cases after both the live attenuated zoster and quadrivalent human papillomavirus (4vHPV) vaccines, 25% of cases after the combined measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and 76% of cases after the 2009 H1N1 inactivated pandemic influenza vaccine. For GBS, VAERS captured 12% of cases after the 2012–13 inactivated seasonal influenza vaccine, 15–55% of cases after the 2009 H1N1 inactivated pandemic influenza vaccine, and 64% of cases after 4vHPV vaccine.”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X20312548

Here is a paper which tackles the questions:
1. Is the increase in VAERS reports due to the increase in the number of vaccinations?
2. Is the increase in VAERS reports due to what public health officials refer to as “stimulated reporting,” meaning that people are reporting more due to increased awareness of the existence of VAERS and/or increased fear surrounding the COVID-19 vaccines due to media exposure of adverse events, awareness of the reporting system, mobilization by vaccine critics, etc.

How could we say with confidence that a new product is safe if its users have no reliable way of reporting adverse events?   Why do most developed countries have these reporting systems if they are of insignificant value?


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> This is a consideration I have wondered about. There are several studies associating heart damage with the spike protein itself whether the virus is present or not, but we were initially assured this didn't apply to the spike protein produced by the vaccines as it would mainly stay localized to the injection site and lymphatic system, never entering circulation.
> 
> The first hints this might have been off were the myocarditis cases. There was some thinking that maybe this only occurred in cases where injections accidentally hit veins instead of muscle tissue.
> 
> ...


Vaccine-caused myocarditis and pericarditis, which are extraordinarily rare side effects to begin with, almost always clear up with rest and/or treatment. I have found no evidence that anyone has suffered heart attacks as a result, we have seen no increase in the frequency of heart attacks since COVID-19 vaccination began, and I definitely haven't seen any evidence that anyone has died as a result of the mRNA vaccines.



NoobletCheese said:


> "Severe myocarditis weakens the heart so that the rest of the body doesn't get enough blood. Clots can form in the heart, leading to a stroke or heart attack." https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myocarditis/symptoms-causes/syc-20352539
> 
> FDA saying it's "possible" (page 16): https://www.fda.gov/media/143557/download
> 
> ...


Myocarditis caused by an mRNA vaccine has not been shown to increase one's chances of a heart attack. Telling me what myocarditis can do in other cases is irrelevant.

Saying something is "possible" isn't the same as saying something actually happens or is actually likely to happen.

VAERS is an important reporting tool, and it points scientists in the right direction regarding what to study, but it is not a source itself of actual vaccine side effects. Anyone can report anything, and when you have a majority of the population vaccinated, you're going to see a lot of things reported that were going to happen anyway and are not related to the vaccine. Regarding heart attacks, the number matches what we would expect if the vaccines didn't cause them, so we can can conclude the vaccines do not increase one's chances of having a heart attack.

It is important to show that new drugs are safe, yes, but the claim "X causes Y" is actually a positive claim that carries the burden of proof. If a person is going to claim the mRNA vaccines cause heart attacks, for example, that needs to be demonstrated.

There is no evidence the mRNA vaccines cause heart attacks, and there's evidence they don't cause heart attacks, so we can say the claim is false.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Well the real focus was on the difference between "unsubstantiated", "inconclusive", and "false", but it isn't surprising seeing as subtlety tends to break your script.  Someone at the daily beast drank piss (_and then caught Covid_).


You're right that we are dealing with two separate issues. The claim that anybody's urine is an effective COVID-19 treatment is unsubstantiated. We also know a thing or two about urine and COVID-19 that suggest the claim is also false.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> You're right that we are dealing with two separate issues. The claim that anybody's urine is an effective COVID-19 treatment is unsubstantiated. We also know a thing or two about urine and COVID-19 that suggest the claim is also false.


As far as I could tell the tweet wasn't a suggestion.  It was an excuse to talk about drinking urine.  Thanks for making a quarter of the distance.

Sucks that you don't seem to see that you are erring in favor of a pharmaceutical company's  bottom line though.  Even if unsubstantiated or inconclusive, it doesn't make the claims false.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

tabzer said:


> As far as I could tell the tweet wasn't a suggestion.  It was an excuse to talk about drinking urine.  Thanks for making a quarter of the distance.


It was, at the very least, the false suggestion that urine is an effective treatment for COVID-19.



tabzer said:


> Sucks that you don't seem to see that you are erring in favor of a pharmaceutical company's  bottom line though.


I'm erring in favor of scientific evidence.

Whether or not something just so happens to also be in a pharmaceutical company's best financial interest is irrelevant. Selling insulin is in a pharmaceutical company's best financial interest, but that doesn't mean insulin doesn't work. You don't appear to have given a lot of thought to your argument here.



tabzer said:


> Even if unsubstantiated or inconclusive, it doesn't make the claims false.


No, but like I've said a couple times now, we understand what urine is, and we understand how COVID-19 works. We can use these understandings to reach the conclusion that the claim about urine being an effective treatment for COVID-19 is likely false.


----------



## NoobletCheese (Apr 17, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I'm erring in favor of scientific evidence.



imo when people are forced or coerced to take a drug without informed consent, the standard of scientific proof of its safety and efficacy should be higher than usual.   The usual standard of proof seems to be completion of a phase 3 trial in order to get approval, although the exact requirements vary by country.   It seems FDA accepts epidemiological data in lieu of phase 3 completion since Pfizer hasn't actually completed phase 3.

And I don't understand why FDA approved Comirnaty but left Pfizer-BioNTech under EUA even though they are the same formulation:



> In the August 23, 2021 revision, FDA clarified that, subsequent to the FDA approval of COMIRNATY (COVID-
> 19 Vaccine, mRNA) for the prevention of COVID-19 for individuals 16 years of age and older, this EUA would
> remain in place for the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for the previously-authorized indication and uses.
> https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/download



Why not just approve both, or better yet why not just leave them both under EUA until phase 3 is complete?  Everyone would still have access to them.

Re: efficacy


> Given the current state of knowledge about COVID-19, the most direct approach to demonstrate effectiveness for a COVID-19 vaccine candidate is based on clinical endpoint efficacy trials showing protection against disease.
> To ensure that a widely deployed COVID-19 vaccine is effective, the primary efficacy endpoint point estimate for a placebo-controlled efficacy trial should be at least 50%.
> FDA recommends that either the primary endpoint or a secondary endpoint be defined as virologically confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection with one or more of the following symptoms: Fever or chills, Cough, Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing, Fatigue, Muscle or body aches, Headache, New loss of taste or smell, Sore throat, Congestion or runny nose, Nausea or vomiting, Diarrhea
> https://www.fda.gov/media/139638/download



Pfizer CEO says 2 doses gives "limited protection if any" against Omicron, which sounds like <50% which if true would mean FDA's primary efficacy endpoint isn't being met and I can't see how 2-dose mandates would be justified.


----------



## SG854 (Apr 17, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You'd have to try the urine. More specifically, Christopher Key's urine. Otherwise, you can say "as far as we_ don't_ know...", or "we don't think it works". Saying it is "false" or, more specifically, saying "it doesn't work" is a hypothesis. I want to know about those test results.
> 
> 
> I never claimed that about science and you are misrepresenting my point.  I understand your skepticism about drinking urine to cure Covid.  I don't believe it is works.  However, when someone _knows_ "it doesn't work", then I am curious about how they know. Do they drink (Christopher Key's) urine every day and still catch covid? Maybe they caught Covid, but thanks to drinking (Christopher Key's) urine the symptoms were less dangerous.
> ...



Is there a specific urine I would have to drink? Like donkey urine, or horse urine, or Jim Carreys urine?


----------



## SG854 (Apr 17, 2022)

tabzer said:


> So that's the dealbreaker when it comes to serving the greater community and taking the shot?  Why so selfish?  _As far as I know_, it tastes delicious.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 17, 2022)

NoobletCheese said:


> when people are forced or coerced to take a drug without informed consent


I'm not aware of this happening anywhere in the US.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 18, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Is there a specific urine I would have to drink? Like donkey urine, or horse urine, or Jim Carreys urine?


The tweet mentioned Christopher Key and _his urine_.  Who is he and why is his pee so special?


----------



## Lacius (Apr 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The tweet mentioned Christopher Key and _his urine_.  Who is he and why is his pee so special?


Until those questions have been answered, it's fair to say it's a ridiculous claim. It's reasonable to say the claim is false until we're told why this urine differs from what we already understand to be true about urine.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 18, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The tweet mentioned Christopher Key and _his urine_.  Who is he and why is his pee so special?


Who is he? Literally some guy. Is his pee special? no. There's literally no reason to keep entertaining any idea that piss has medical purposes beyond expelled waste from the body. I don't understand why anti-vaxxors need to broadcast their watersports fetish and attempt to justify it.


NoobletCheese said:


> FDA saying it's "possible" (page 16): https://www.fda.gov/media/143557/download


So has there been a spike since 2020?
You posted a lot of links but has there been a spike in heart attacks and strokes related to the Covid vaccine? We should be able to see a pretty clear spike.


----------



## RocaBOT (Apr 18, 2022)

NoobletCheese said:


> imo when people are forced or coerced to take a drug without informed consent, the standard of scientific proof of its safety and efficacy should be higher than usual.   The usual standard of proof seems to be completion of a phase 3 trial in order to get approval, although the exact requirements vary by country.   It seems FDA accepts epidemiological data in lieu of phase 3 completion since Pfizer hasn't actually completed phase 3.
> 
> And I don't understand why FDA approved Comirnaty but left Pfizer-BioNTech under EUA even though they are the same formulation:
> 
> ...


What are you even rambling about? Have you read the thing and have you made a simple search on the name comirnaty?
Like, literally, Comirnaty is a shelf name for the mRNA vaccine produced by Pfizer and BioNTech. You can find that info in less than 5mn with a very basic keyword search on Google or whatever is your favourite search engine. And the letter itself clearly states that the authorisation letter was reissued when Comirnaty got the full-on authorisation so that it would include both brandings, too, it's like end of first page/beginning of 2nd page. So it's not like they decided to keep one branding on a "lesser" status (seeing as both statuses are effectively authorisation for broad use and the final one supplants the emergency one anyway). I did not even have to read the whole thing to find out you're rambling on nothing mate.


----------



## NoobletCheese (Apr 18, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I'm not aware of this happening anywhere in the US.



I'm aware of it happening ubiquitously, here is one anecdote
https://www.jccf.ca/wp-content/uplo...the-president-of-the-U-of-Guelph_B.Bridle.pdf



The Catboy said:


> So has there been a spike since 2020?
> has there been a spike in heart attacks and strokes related to the Covid vaccine? We should be able to see a pretty clear spike.



The burden is to prove the product _doesn't_ cause heart attacks -- please provide evidence of that.  No drug is approved on the basis of "safe until proven dangerous".

A "pretty clear spike" may be:

1. 10,239 reports to VAERS of heart attacks within 14 days of being vaccinated [1]
2. "General acknowledgement" that VAERS is underreported [2][3][4]
3. PRR's for Myocardial Infarction exceeding CDC's threshold for signal detection [5][6]
4. A known link between myocarditis and heart attacks [7]




RocaBOT said:


> the letter itself clearly states that the authorisation letter was reissued when Comirnaty got the full-on authorisation so that it would include both brandings, too, it's like end of first page/beginning of 2nd page.



Authorisation ≠ approval.   Please show where it says Pfizer-BioNTech has received approval.

And why would any of them need to be approved before phase 3 is complete -- why not just leave them under Emergency Use Authorisation until phase 3 has been completed?  What's the downside?


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 18, 2022)

NoobletCheese said:


> I'm aware of it happening ubiquitously, here is one anecdote
> https://www.jccf.ca/wp-content/uplo...the-president-of-the-U-of-Guelph_B.Bridle.pdf
> 
> 
> ...


Did you really not read the thread before posting an entire essay?


Glyptofane said:


> The Science is developing mRNA injections to treat *heart attacks caused by the previous mRNA injections*. What a time to be alive!
> 
> Scientists discover world's first cure for heart attacks using the same mRNA technology as Covid vaccines





Glyptofane said:


> *Clots can form from myocarditis and then result in heart attack or stroke*. I shouldn't have to explain the entire process of heart disease. I guess you are only thinking of the instantaneous clotting associated with J&J?


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 18, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Did you really not read the thread before posting an entire essay?


Why are you still reacting in such an aggressive way when somebody is trying to make a point according to the rules you yourself stated providing links to sources to sustain their statements?

I find your aggressiveness unfair.

And the act of continuously asking for sources and precise citations in the one hand, and then trying to "downplay" (?) a post as an "entire essay" (suggesting it's unnecessary) when sources are provided in the other hand... I find that an act of hypocrisy.

Why do you do this? It's disrespectful and... Well... It disappoints me, but that's personal so who cares.


----------



## Lacius (Apr 18, 2022)

NoobletCheese said:


> I'm aware of it happening ubiquitously, here is one anecdote
> https://www.jccf.ca/wp-content/uplo...the-president-of-the-U-of-Guelph_B.Bridle.pdf
> 
> 
> ...


This is not an example of people being "forced or coerced to take a drug *without informed consent*."

I have already corrected your points about heart attacks and the burden of proof. Were you not listening?

The Pfizer vaccine has actually received full FDA approval, not just authorization.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 18, 2022)

sarkwalvein said:


> Why are you still reacting in such an aggressive way when somebody is trying to make a point according to the rules you yourself stated providing links to sources to sustain their statements?
> 
> I find your aggressiveness unfair.
> 
> ...


I didn’t mean to be aggressive, that’s an oof. But the reason was that there is context to the conversation that seems to have not been taken into consideration before writing a massive post.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 18, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I didn’t mean to be aggressive, that’s an oof. But the reason was that there is context to the conversation that seems to have not been taken into consideration before writing a massive post.


Thanks for replying in a kind way. 

Sorry if I sounded condescending, there's so much violence lately in the news, in the temps and everywhere, people shutting down conversation with violence too... It's driving me crazy.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 18, 2022)

sarkwalvein said:


> Thanks for replying in a kind way.
> 
> Sorry if I sounded condescending, there's so much violence lately in the news, in the temps and everywhere, people shutting down conversation with violence too... It's driving me crazy.


I feel that. I am actually dealing with some personal stuff in my life and might be more on edge than I realized I was. Should really just take a break for bit.


----------



## RocaBOT (Apr 18, 2022)

I mean, as I just said...


RocaBOT said:


> Like, literally, Comirnaty is a shelf name for the mRNA vaccine produced by Pfizer and BioNTech.


They're one and the same. Different brandings because it did not have a commercial name before it was, well, commercialised, but it does not change the fact they are the same product from the same manufacturer and that one supplanting the other also means its authorisation level supplants the authorisation level of the other (be they approval or what-have-you), for all intents and purposes.

I do not know the specifics of the decision process of the US health agencies, nor do I need to for that matter (I do not even live there), but the phase 3 study by Pfizer and BioNTech for their (then candidate) vaccine first concluded in November of 2020, before the Comirnaty name was given to it for general commercialisation - which happened sometime before March 2021 as far as I'm concerned, since that's the name under which it was given to me back then already. While it is not a full closure of the trial (this phase 3 trial, like many others, is continuous and so will continue to make its results more precise over the years of actual commercial use), the results published at the time, based on tens of thousands of participants, were showing 95%+ efficacy on the initial variant at the time with little to no serious safety concern, which was enough to meet the standards of most health agencies over the world (including in the EU and US).
See here for their press release on the results back in mid-Nov. 2020 (remember the vaccine was still candidate and did not receive commercial name at the time, hence its tentative name BNT162b2, you can check easily that it is the internal production name for what is currently named Comirnaty)


----------



## Dr_Faustus (Apr 18, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> The Science is developing mRNA injections to treat heart attacks caused by the previous mRNA injections. What a time to be alive!
> 
> Scientists discover world's first cure for heart attacks using the same mRNA technology as Covid vaccines


Did you even read your own article dude? Shit is talking about how the mRNA technology is being used to generate healthy cells in the heart and essentially "regenerate damaged hearts". Nothing is stated about how this is in ANY WAY about how covid vaccines are "damaging hearts". Its about how the technology that was used to make the vaccines is being deployed to make different types of vaccines/cures. A concept that anyone with half a brain and some basic understanding of the research and development of the mRNA technology can tell you was always meant to be the end goal. This type of research has been going on since the early 90's and the recent usecase of the technology to help accelerate the development of a vaccine for covid is a result in its effectiveness as a viable form of medicine.

Did you seriously think that mRNA technology only existed when covid became relevant, and is only being used for covid? How fucking narrow minded do you have to be to believe that? Its a technology to help package and transit medicine into the human body. The original point of this technology was to explore the potential cures of diseases like HIV, Malaria and shit of that nature. It was always meant to introduce a new delivery method to the human body to help build immunity defense. The usecase of it for covid was an example of how well it could be used as a vaccine, and it has helped considerably in that effect.


If you folks are so rigidly against modern medicine, development and general health then please for the rest of humanity go gather yourselves up and section yourselves off from the world. Build your own isolated community/country and in a few years we can compare notes to see where the disease/death toll is at on both. At this point it seems the only thing viable and credible for those crazy's to want to prove they are right.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 18, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> The Science is developing mRNA injections to treat heart attacks caused by the previous mRNA injections. What a time to be alive!
> 
> Scientists discover world's first cure for heart attacks using the same mRNA technology as Covid vaccines


Before we got off track, I would still like to see a source for this claim. There should easily be at least one source connecting the mRNA to an increase in heart attacks and strokes.


----------



## RandomUser (Apr 19, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> Did you even read your own article dude? Shit is talking about how the mRNA technology is being used to generate healthy cells in the heart and essentially "regenerate damaged hearts". Nothing is stated about how this is in ANY WAY about how covid vaccines are "damaging hearts". Its about how the technology that was used to make the vaccines is being deployed to make different types of vaccines/cures. A concept that anyone with half a brain and some basic understanding of the research and development of the mRNA technology can tell you was always meant to be the end goal. This type of research has been going on since the early 90's and the recent usecase of the technology to help accelerate the development of a vaccine for covid is a result in its effectiveness as a viable form of medicine.
> 
> Did you seriously think that mRNA technology only existed when covid became relevant, and is only being used for covid? How fucking narrow minded do you have to be to believe that? Its a technology to help package and transit medicine into the human body. The original point of this technology was to explore the potential cures of diseases like HIV, Malaria and shit of that nature. It was always meant to introduce a new delivery method to the human body to help build immunity defense. The usecase of it for covid was an example of how well it could be used as a vaccine, and it has helped considerably in that effect.
> 
> ...


@Glyptofane  link to the article is an interesting read. I wonder if this could also possibly pave the way for cures for people that suffers from any forms of CKD. That disease can be stealthy, sometimes no symptoms of having it. Really something needs to be done for CKD. Prognosis of CKD are on average, not good, or have short life expectancy at end stage renal disease.
Then again what do I know? I'm not a doctor.

It is recommended to get your kidney function checked up.


----------



## djpannda (Apr 20, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The tweet mentioned Christopher Key and _his urine_.  Who is he and why is his pee so special?


… weird you were the person you wanted to defend  “possible treatment” when asked to test out your own urine.. you refuse and now claim you don’t know who his is …


----------



## tabzer (Apr 21, 2022)

djpannda said:


> … weird you were the person you wanted to defend  “possible treatment” when asked to test out your own urine.. you refuse and now claim you don’t know who his is …



You aren't very bright, so let's spell it out.  It's possible to disagree with both the person tweeting and who they are tweeting about.  I don't have to agree with either, lol.

It's a ridiculous post.

Are you a democrat just because you don't want to be a republican?


----------



## JonhathonBaxster (Apr 21, 2022)

Ingesting urine to fight off a COVID19 infection is one of the most stupid things I've heard yet regarding possible treatments. It's up there with injecting disinfectants. I'm not sure why its even being discussed.


----------



## djpannda (Apr 21, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You aren't very bright, so let's spell it out.  It's possible to disagree with both the person tweeting and who they are tweeting about.  I don't have to agree with either, lol.
> 
> It's a ridiculous post.
> 
> Are you a democrat just because you don't want to be a republican?


… so did you drink your own piss or did you buy another order on online pee? …


----------



## tabzer (Apr 21, 2022)

djpannda said:


> … so did you drink your own piss or did you buy another order on online pee? …


Paying attention is not your strong suit.  You are the one who introduced piss into this thread.  You tell us.


----------



## djpannda (Apr 21, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Paying attention is not your strong suit.  You are the one who introduced piss into this thread.  You tell us.


Wait are you trying to tell us that…. You really don’t believe the anti vaccine stances and want to just  Rile shit up? Because if you were a true “ Alternative medicine” person you would piss in your own mouth


----------



## tabzer (Apr 21, 2022)

djpannda said:


> Wait are you trying to tell us that…. You really don’t believe the anti vaccine stances and want to just  Rile shit up? Because if you were a true “ Alternative medicine” person you would piss in your own mouth



So you think that the alternative to getting vaccinated is to piss in your mouth.  Got it.  Maybe you should be tackling the education crisis.


----------



## djpannda (Apr 21, 2022)

tabzer said:


> So you think that the alternative to getting vaccinated is to piss in your mouth.  Got it.  Maybe you should be tackling the education crisis.


funny "so you think that THERE IS an ALTERNATIVE to getting Vaccinated"... sounds like your justifying the Golden Showers


----------



## tabzer (Apr 22, 2022)

djpannda said:


> funny "so you think that THERE IS an ALTERNATIVE to getting Vaccinated"... sounds like your justifying the Golden Showers


"Quotes don't matter if" you insert them randomly "and say whatever" you are "thinking" about.

The alternative to getting vaccinated is... not getting vaccinated.  Deep, I know.  I'll help you understand.


----------



## RocaBOT (Apr 22, 2022)

Guys this is ridiculous. Can we just agree that tabzer was just stirring up shit on that pee thing for the 'fun' of it and move on? This is getting nowhere tbh.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 22, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> Guys this is ridiculous. Can we just agree that tabzer was just stirring up shit on that pee thing for the 'fun' of it and move on? This is getting nowhere tbh.


Lol, I didn't bring it into the thread.  If it was a serious rebuttal to something someone said, I want to know.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 22, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> Guys this is ridiculous. Can we just agree that tabzer was just stirring up shit on that pee thing for the 'fun' of it and move on? This is getting nowhere tbh.


Agreed, can we focus on this claim?


Glyptofane said:


> The Science is developing mRNA injections to treat heart attacks caused by the previous mRNA injections. What a time to be alive!
> 
> Scientists discover world's first cure for heart attacks using the same mRNA technology as Covid vaccines


I really want to see those spikes!


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 23, 2022)

Instaroleplay said:


> unvaxxed here. Im one of those wackos who dares to trust in my own inmunologic system. Crazy i knw. The jab is for weak fools brainwashed by pfizer moderna astraseneca, etc.


So, you take no medicine at all?


----------



## RocaBOT (Apr 23, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Lol, I didn't bring it into the thread.  If it was a serious rebuttal to something someone said, I want to know.


you don't need to be the one bringing the info at first to be the one trolling on it for pages and pages, let's close it, you brought nothing and neither did anyone who believes in that shit, and *you were brought arguments as for why it should not be expected to work*. You can still "do your own research" as they call it if you really get interested to know more about this bullshit.


----------



## tabzer (Apr 23, 2022)

RocaBOT said:


> you don't need to be the one bringing the info at first to be the one trolling on it for pages and pages, let's close it, you brought nothing and neither did anyone who believes in that shit, and you were brought arguments as for why it should not be expected to work. You can still "do your own research" as they call it if you really get interested to know more about this bullshit.


I'm genuinely interested in proof that the claim is false.  Did you drink his piss and then catch Covid?  Do you know others that have?  Why was it brought up?  Maybe I was trolled.


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 23, 2022)

Instaroleplay said:


> I also like my genes unspiked. Also, which was the reason Dr. Malone was banned from Twitter?


What sources say that these vaccines cause spikes on your genes? Dr. Malone misused his title and Twitter to spread conspiracies and misinformation.



Instaroleplay said:


> Only the sick take medicine. I arent sick. Unvaxxed, unmasked. And i will outlive all the 475 vaxxed npcs that voted yes.


What’s the context to the 475?


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 24, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> What sources say that these vaccines cause spikes on your genes? Dr. Malone misused his title and Twitter to spread conspiracies and misinformation.
> 
> 
> What’s the context to the 475?


I'm pretty sure he was talking about the poll. Maybe someone changed their vote. Anyway, I'm surprise he takes medicine and not just rely on his "inmunologic system".


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 24, 2022)

KingVamp said:


> I'm pretty sure he was talking about the poll. Maybe someone changed there vote. Anyway, I'm surprise he takes medicine and not just rely on his "inmunologic system".


I literally forgot this thread had poll, I am not gonna lie to you. I am shocked by that as well, I though "meh immune system" was the only way to do things.


----------



## weatMod (Apr 24, 2022)

I know about 50 people that have been fully vaxxed who got infected
 I know  ZERO people who got COVID and  did not get the vax who have been reinfected
not saying that you should get infected to gain immunity but if you have  already had it there is no need for an inefficacious  vaccine


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 24, 2022)

weatMod said:


> I know about 50 people that have been fully vaxxed who got infected
> I know  ZERO people who got COVID and  did not get the vax who have been reinfected
> not saying that you should get infected to gain immunity but if you have  already had it there is no need for an inefficacious  vaccine


I don't disagree with you, but if it is about anecdotal evidence, I know plenty of people that got infected and then reinfected multiple times both before and after getting vaccinated, my siblings among them (but to be fair, those reinfections were nothing serious).

I also know myself, and I've never gotten infected even though pushing it a little travelling multiple times really long distance in planes packed in like sardines during the last six months; and though I am vaccinated and boosted I can say there's also some luck involved there... and I guess also a lot of health regulations in airports and planes.

What I mean anyway is that you will find lucky and unlucky people all around.


----------



## Valwinz (May 6, 2022)

Well Well Well its been limited because blood clotting syndrome.


----------



## SG854 (May 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Agreed, can we focus on this claim?
> 
> I really want to see those spikes!


I think they would rather take Horse Dewormer then use mRNA tech to cure their Heart Issues.


----------



## The Catboy (May 6, 2022)

SG854 said:


> I think they would rather take Horse Dewormer then use mRNA tech to cure their Heart Issues.


Edit: misread 
Yeah, that’s for true


----------



## SG854 (May 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Are you gonna provide a source to that claim?


Anti covid vax do crazy things


----------



## The Catboy (May 6, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Anti covid vax do crazy things


Oh, sorry! I misread your post! I am a bit high from painkillers because I had a major surgery on Monday. I should really just rest instead of arguing online


----------



## SG854 (May 6, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Oh, sorry! I misread your post! I am a bit high from painkillers because I had a major surgery on Monday. I should really just rest instead of arguing online


Maybe you should use horse dewormer. The miracle drug.


----------



## The Catboy (May 6, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Maybe you should use horse dewormer


If I don’t turn into a horse, I am gonna be mildly upset


----------



## weatMod (May 23, 2022)

Gah
 COVID is like  so 2021

the pox is the latest craze now



sometimes I just hate being right all the time


https://gbatemp.net/threads/what-is-the-end-game-with-covid.603233/post-9666671


----------



## pustal (May 23, 2022)

weatMod said:


> Gah
> COVID is like  so 2021
> 
> the pox is the latest craze now
> ...



You should be glad being so wrong then. Cheer up!


----------



## weatMod (May 23, 2022)

pustal said:


> You should be glad being so wrong then. Cheer up!


but I'm not tho


----------



## pustal (May 23, 2022)

weatMod said:


> but I'm not tho


In the post you linked before you are claiming vaccines don't work. I'd tell you to look at the death count before and after the vaccine in vaccinated countries. But you prefer to believe in some random YouTube channel with 135 subs and a convicted felon than reputable sources, so why bother? I won't continue to engage with crazy.


----------



## weatMod (May 23, 2022)

pustal said:


> In the post you linked before you are claiming vaccines don't work. I'd tell you to look at the death count before and after the vaccine in vaccinated countries. But you prefer to believe in some random YouTube channel with 135 subs and a convicted felon than reputable sources, so why bother? I won't continue to engage with crazy.


deaths are down because the  virus has mutated like all viruses to less lethal
not because of vaccines, you can  still get the virus    transmit the virus and  and  die with the vaccine

never heard of this channel before  just saw it so I have no clue about the background
 but I saw this information before

"convicted fellon" LOL
Kim Dotcom did nothing  wrong
F megaupload

but I suppose you take pedowoods side

Besides you totally missed the point of the post 
it was not about the vaccines , I was about predicting they would unleash a pox virus to cause the next  pandemic "pandemic 2" as Gates called it

did you even  read the  headline tiles I posted,  here are screen caps instead , note the dates.


----------



## grabman (Nov 23, 2022)

i find it funny that many moons ago i pointed out some terrible vaccine side effects...i noticed many on this site sipping the mainstream koolaid.  i think it is safe to say that those folks were misinformed.  i suspect far worse.  influencing others for profit?  paid partisans?

hard to say.

but this is damning evidence the vaccines have a problem...i posted the first pictures of this months ago...for those that need video proof here ya go...


----------



## Luke94 (Nov 23, 2022)

grabman said:


> i find it funny that many moons ago i pointed out some terrible vaccine side effects...i noticed many on this site sipping the mainstream koolaid.  i think it is safe to say that those folks were misinformed.  i suspect far worse.  influencing others for profit?  paid partisans?
> 
> hard to say.
> 
> but this is damning evidence the vaccines have a problem...i posted the first pictures of this months ago...for those that need video proof here ya go...



It looks like someone had activated killswitch like in original Deus Ex.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 23, 2022)

Vaccine has worked wonders for me with no side effects. Pretty certain I'm fully immune to Covid at this point or if i get it now it doesn't do anything to me, unlike when it all started and I was on what felt like my deathbed when I got it.


----------



## Milenko (Nov 23, 2022)

No one is immune, and every subsequent infection has the potential for organ damage so it's best to not get it


----------



## kekkius (Nov 23, 2022)

as far as i know, i got no jab, only one time infected, i didn't respect social distance, lock downs, carnival mask or any other thing, i've always met with other people who had covid infection in course, i have asma so my doctor was saying "get the jab is risky for you", i can affirm that normal flu in worse, since covid is just some joint pain a little fever and throat ache, in 3 days with paracetamol you are ok.....while......my friends jabbed 3+ time, being faithful dog of "science" and government, got covid at least 4 time each, always sick in bed like they're dying........fun fact in italy in "hospital" you have to still wear mask, last time i went to check how my asma was going, my doctor introduced me to the pneumologist as "the original" because we were in a hospital i asked them if i had to wear a mask, both answered "no, WE need to wear it!"
btw i personally know a lot of "sudden illness", but this have "no correlation!"
read my old posts if you have time (or read the official data pfizer presented to eu parliment) meawhile tou get in line for the 5th shot!
i am not affraid i just don't give a fluk, the truth is if you are under 50 yo and with no major healt problems, you shouldn't have had the jab, because you alredy had a working immune system.
my 2 cent


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 23, 2022)

Milenko said:


> No one is immune, and every subsequent infection has the potential for organ damage so it's best to not get it


All I'm saying is that I had Covid at the start and it was the worst thing I've ever been through. I got the vaccine, proceeded to work in a busy restaurant full time at the peak of everything in a city where literally nobody was wearing masks. And there is no way that I haven't gotten it again at least once, if not multiple times again. But it hasn't been anything at all like when I first got it. As far as I'm concerned, the vaccine works.


----------



## Minox (Nov 23, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> All I'm saying is that I had Covid at the start and it was the worst thing I've ever been through. I got the vaccine, proceeded to work in a busy restaurant full time at the peak of everything in a city where literally nobody was wearing masks. And there is no way that I haven't gotten it again at least once, if not multiple times again. But it hasn't been anything at all like when I first got it. As far as I'm concerned, the vaccine works.


To be fair, if you've both have corona and taken the vaccine - how do you know which is the effective one?


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 23, 2022)

Minox said:


> To be fair, if you've both have corona and taken the vaccine - how do you know which is the effective one?


You think that the act of getting Covid means you can't get it again? That's demonstrably wrong, I've known too many people now to have gotten it more than once, and again this shit was happening around me a lot.  If the vaccine has nothing to do with how it doesn't seem to affect me any more, then I guess that's quite the coincidence. Or hell, maybe it's a placebo effect because I believed from the start it would help. Whatever the case, I feel extremely confident in saying that it has worked well for me.


----------



## Minox (Nov 23, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> You think that the act of getting Covid means you can't get it again? That's demonstrably wrong, I've known too many people now to have gotten it more than once, and again this shit was happening around me a lot.  If the vaccine has nothing to do with how it doesn't seem to affect me any more, then I guess that's quite the coincidence. Or hell, maybe it's a placebo effect because I believed from the start it would help. Whatever the case, I feel extremely confident in saying that it has worked well for me.


No, that is not what I'm saying.

What I'm trying to point out is the difficulty in being able to point out what has generated the antibodies necessary to fight the virus if you've had both.

It could be one or the other, but it could also just straight up be a combination of both.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 24, 2022)

Minox said:


> No, that is not what I'm saying.
> 
> What I'm trying to point out is the difficulty in being able to point out what has generated the antibodies necessary to fight the virus if you've had both.
> 
> It could be one or the other, but it could also just straight up be a combination of both.


Yeah or it could be the placebo effect at play as well. Could be a mix of a lot of things. I do think the placebo effect goes both ways too, people that are certain the vaccine won't work or is even dangerous may in effect will such side effects upon themselves if they were to get the vaccine. Our brains and bodies are weird like that haha.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 24, 2022)

Still spinning conspiracy theories despite Republicans having a higher death rate from covid. Both sad, because it didn't need to happen, and ironic, considering it could be swinging elections.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 24, 2022)

nah, fauci promised us another winter of death ( despite the fact even i think it was wapo saying most deaths are vaccinated ones) for the unvaccinated, i want my monies worth!


----------



## LinkmstrYT (Nov 24, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> Yeah or it could be the placebo effect at play as well. Could be a mix of a lot of things. I do think the placebo effect goes both ways too, people that are certain the vaccine won't work or is even dangerous may in effect will such side effects upon themselves if they were to get the vaccine. Our brains and bodies are weird like that haha.


Well, having natural and vaccine protection is a big thing to have, too. It's why a lot of doctors suggest getting the vaccine (if you haven't gotten one yet) after recovering from COVID for some weeks. Means more protection and a lot less chances of getting sick again, which also helps in decreasing spread, too, as the body is also fighting off against the virus in the body, so there's less of the virus to spread to others and therefore helps everyone overall.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 24, 2022)

LinkmstrYT said:


> Well, having natural and vaccine protection is a big thing to have, too. It's why a lot of doctors suggest getting the vaccine (if you haven't gotten one yet) after recovering from COVID for some weeks. Means more protection and a lot less chances of getting sick again, which also helps in decreasing spread, too, as the body is also fighting off against the virus in the body, so there's less of the virus to spread to others and therefore helps everyone overall.


You say all that as if I'm not in favor of the vaccine.  I'm saying I absolutely believe it has helped me, but I'm also saying there certainly could be other factors that has helped me get to the point where Covid doesn't seem to have any affect on me anymore.  It's true of any vaccine, I absolutely believe they work, but I also know the placebo effect is real as well, and I've always believed the two can be working together, vaccines work, and when we truly believe they work, it in turn gives them strength in doing what they're meant to do.


----------



## NoobletCheese (Nov 24, 2022)

The department of justice defines mass murder as "3 or more". Let's hope there weren't this many who didn't consent to taking it. Let's hope their employers realized their employees could have just shown up to work asymptomatic with a negative covid test, and others could protect themselves against said employees with multiple doses of vaccine, masks, social distancing etc. Let's hope the humans are rational agents and don't need to hurt people "for the greater good". Let's hope that in the trolley problem, the unfortunate person on the tracks doesn't have their own lever which they could pull and direct the train back at the noble Utilitarian who directed it at them in the first place.


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 24, 2022)

NoobletCheese said:


> The department of justice defines mass murder as "3 or more". Let's hope there weren't this many who didn't consent to taking it. Let's hope their employers realized their employees could have just shown up to work asymptomatic with a negative covid test, and others could protect themselves against said employees with multiple doses of vaccine, masks, social distancing etc. Let's hope the humans are rational agents and don't need to hurt people "for the greater good". Let's hope that in the trolley problem, the unfortunate person on the tracks doesn't have their own lever which they could pull and direct the train back at the noble Utilitarian who directed it at them in the first place.


The fuck you on about?


----------



## NoobletCheese (Nov 24, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The fuck you on about?



Well, it seems to me that if 3 or more people died from it and they didn't want to take it, then wouldn't that be mass murder?  For the greater good of society?   I don't have a problem with this as long as you are a Utilitarian and stick to that rule when it's applied to you.   Self consistency and all that.   It's an effective product though -- 4 doses in a year & still didn't stop transmission... if that's what they mean by "effective" then what do they mean by "safe"?

edit: I havent watched the "died suddenly" video, so I don't know how much of it is true.  But I don't need to know, all I need is agnosticism or reasonable doubt of the product.  It's a low bar for me, it's a high bar for you.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 24, 2022)

I like that people can respect others not getting the vaccine and vice versa.  I have no doubt that it has helped some and hurt others.  I also have no doubt that the media-political complex completely banked on hubris.


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 25, 2022)

NoobletCheese said:


> Well, it seems to me that if 3 or more people died from it and they didn't want to take it, then wouldn't that be mass murder?  For the greater good of society?   I don't have a problem with this as long as you are a Utilitarian and stick to that rule when it's applied to you.   Self consistency and all that.   It's an effective product though -- 4 doses in a year & still didn't stop transmission... if that's what they mean by "effective" then what do they mean by "safe"?
> 
> edit: I havent watched the "died suddenly" video, so I don't know how much of it is true.  But I don't need to know, all I need is agnosticism or reasonable doubt of the product.  It's a low bar for me, it's a high bar for you.


Sources to all of the claims you just made here.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 25, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Sources to all of the claims you just made here.



What "claim" do you contest?  Can you demonstrate an iota of understanding or is this the thing you say when you cannot comprehend what someone is saying?


----------



## SG854 (Nov 26, 2022)

I got jabbed 3 times


----------



## bazamuffin (Nov 26, 2022)

I find it quite sad that it has divided members on this site


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 26, 2022)

tabzer said:


> What "claim" do you contest?  Can you demonstrate an iota of understanding or is this the thing you say when you cannot comprehend what someone is saying?


The post is pure rambles that vaguely implies something and quite honestly I want to understand what’s being referenced to in his post? Did people die from the vaccine? Is that what his post is about? Or is it just vague nonsense? You can say I don’t understand his post because I literally don't, it doesn’t make any sense because it’s vague rambles. When it comes that, I am just going to assume it’s claims about the vaccine and request whatever source he’s vaguely alluding to. It’s not that I am contesting anything because I literally have no idea what I am supposed to be working with here.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 26, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The post is pure rambles that vaguely implies something and quite honestly I want to understand what’s being referenced to in his post? Did people die from the vaccine? Is that what his post is about? Or is it just vague nonsense? You can say I don’t understand his post because I literally don't, it doesn’t make any sense because it’s vague rambles. When it comes that, I am just going to assume it’s claims about the vaccine and request whatever source he’s vaguely alluding to. It’s not that I am contesting anything because I literally have no idea what I am supposed to be working with here.



Now you are rambling.  I listed that as an alternative:



tabzer said:


> or is this the thing you say when you cannot comprehend what someone is saying?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Nov 26, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The fuck you on about?


I genuinely want to know what it is about the conservative skull shape that predisposes them to myopic takes like "if someone dies after being vaccinated, it means the vaccine killed them and the government is responsible."

Maybe they just wanna feel oppressed.


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I genuinely want to know what it is about the conservative skull shape that predisposes them to myopic takes like "if someone dies after being vaccinated, it means the vaccine killed them and the government is responsible."
> 
> Maybe they just wanna feel oppressed.


Either that or some vaguely worded post that’s just intended to sound smart or deep but is actually just a nonsensical word salad


----------



## tabzer (Nov 26, 2022)

Or maybe vaccines aren't as safe and effective as the initial marketing implied.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Nov 26, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Either that or some vaguely worded post that’s just intended to sound smart or deep but is actually just a nonsensical word salad


Yeah, pretty much. I see them and that one crypto guy in the same light at this point, just aesthetics obsessed pseudo intellectuals.


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Yeah, pretty much. I see them and that one crypto guy in the same light at this point, just aesthetics obsessed pseudo intellectuals.


The Mr Pool method, just make vague enough posts that can literally apply to anything if you squint hard enough


----------



## LainaGabranth (Nov 26, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> The Mr Pool method, just make vague enough posts that can literally apply to anything if you squint hard enough


Pretty much. It's why I stand by my statement that the right literally does not believe anything.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 26, 2022)

Calling people "pseudo intellectuals" to be condescending is ironic.  It doesn't demonstrate a higher intellectual capacity.  It's easily interpreted as envy.

Most people understand you have desire to feel superior.


----------



## The Catboy (Nov 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Pretty much. It's why I stand by my statement that the right literally does not believe anything.


Besides vague nonsense rambles that can apply to anything, Q, Mr Pool, etc.


----------



## tabzer (Nov 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Pretty much. It's why I stand by my statement that the right literally does not believe anything.



Why should political interest enforce beliefs?  If you believe something that others see as objectively false, wouldn't the safer path to be non-enforcement?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Nov 26, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Besides vague nonsense rambles that can apply to anything, Q, Mr Pool, etc.


Yeeeeeep. Nothing is more embarrassing than a political ideology founded on vibes and virtue signalling.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> You say all that as if I'm not in favor of the vaccine.  I'm saying I absolutely believe it has helped me, but I'm also saying there certainly could be other factors that has helped me get to the point where Covid doesn't seem to have any affect on me anymore.  It's true of any vaccine, I absolutely believe they work, but I also know the placebo effect is real as well, and I've always believed the two can be working together, vaccines work, and when we truly believe they work, it in turn gives them strength in doing what they're meant to do.



nope, thats fake science, only the vaccine works... thats how denial works right?

	Post automatically merged: Nov 27, 2022



LainaGabranth said:


> Yeeeeeep. Nothing is more embarrassing than a political ideology founded on vibes and virtue signalling.



isnt that what your party does?


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> nope, thats fake science, only the vaccine works... thats how denial works right?


You're seriously asking me how denial works? I mean if you want to deny the placebo effect, have at it, wouldn't surprise me to see vaccine deniers to dismiss other proven science.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> You're seriously asking me how denial works? I mean if you want to deny the placebo effect, have at it, wouldn't surprise me to see vaccine deniers to dismiss other proven science.



no no i was referring to natural protection, also do you seriously not know the definition of irony? saying things now that people said years ago as a fact, but then immediately going back to mkultra programming with " vaccine denier" you bought into a cult, grow up and accept it.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> no no i was referring to natural protection, also do you seriously not know the definition of irony? saying things now that people said years ago as a fact, but then immediately going back to mkultra programming with " vaccine denier" you bought into a cult, grow up and accept it.


I wouldn't consider it ironic that vaccine deniers would decide that the placebo effect isn't real either.  Definitely seems in line with their mentality.  It's like how it doesn't surprise me when people that think 9/11 was entirely an inside job also turn out to think the moon landing was fake or that the earth is flat.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> I wouldn't consider it ironic that vaccine deniers would decide that the placebo effect isn't real either.  Definitely seems in line with their mentality.  It's like how it doesn't surprise me when people that think 9/11 was entirely an inside job also turn out to think the moon landing was fake or that the earth is flat.



i never said the placebo effect isnt real, you didnt answer my question, whats the world for that again? also, thats a weird back handed compliment, you call them a denier, which means they didnt buy into a cult, thats a nice thing to do, then magically,  try to make a dig at them., there are people you can talk to, dont project your self hatred.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> i never said the placebo effect isnt real, you didnt answer my question, whats the world for that again? also, thats a weird back handed compliment, you call them a denier, which means they didnt buy into a cult, thats a nice thing to do, then magically,  try to make a dig at them., there are people you can talk to, dont project your self hatred.


No I know you weren't saying you don't personally think it isn't real.  Was very evident that you were just making fun of vaccine deniers.  You just point to a proven science and said, 'that's fake science' in regard to the placebo effect and that's how denial works, yes.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> No I know you weren't saying you don't personally think it isn't real.  Was very evident that you were just making fun of vaccine deiners.  You just point to a proven science and said, 'that's fake science' in regard to the placebo effect and that's how denial begins, yes.


 
source?


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> source?


You literally said "nope, thats fake science, only the vaccine works... thats how denial works right?" in regard to my post saying that the placebo effect is almost certainly also at play.  And I know you must be smart enough to know the placebo effect is very real, so it was evident that you were just taking shots at those that turn down the science because they did their own research or whatever lol.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> You literally said "nope, thats fake science, only the vaccine works... thats how denial works right?" in regard to my post saying that the placebo effect is almost certainly also at play.  And I know you must be smart enough to know the placebo effect is very real, so it was evident that you were just taking shots at those that turn down the science because they did their own research or whatever lol.



ahh so you are a liar got it, because i VERY clearly commented on your natural immunity post, which your gods denied to sell you on the coolaid


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> ahh so you are a liar got it, because i VERY clearly commented on your natural immunity post, which your gods denied to sell you on the coolaid


When the other day? Sorry didn't go back to see who all was debating with me then.  I honestly didn't realize you were genuinely arguing against the vaccine just now, you genuinely could have fooled me in to thinking you were mocking the mentality of vaccine deniers.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> When the other day? Sorry didn't go back to see who all was debating with me then.  I honestly didn't realize you were genuinely arguing against the vaccine just now, you genuinely could have fooled me in to thinking you were mocking the mentality of vaccine deniers.



 why would i mock someone who was right?


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> why would i mock someone who was right?


Like I said, you fooled me haha, the cadence and the way you addressed it just felt like pure parody.  I apologize for not recognizing that you were serious.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> Like I said, you fooled me haha, the cadence and the way you addressed it just felt like pure parody.  I apologize for not recognizing that you were serious.



im confused, but ok


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> im confused, but ok


haha no worries, happens to the best of us


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> haha no worries, happens to the best of us



i cant tell if you are being sincere or not, but you are welcome.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> i cant tell if you are being sincere or not, but you are welcome.


Well I didn't thank you lol, but no worries, it's all good.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Nov 27, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> Well I didn't thank you lol, but no worries, it's all good.



all words to me a thanks of my presences


----------



## MikaDubbz (Nov 27, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> all words to me a thanks of my presences


ok crazy lol


----------



## NoobletCheese (Nov 29, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Sources to all of the claims you just made here.



So you don't believe that even 3 people have died from it?


----------



## sombrerosonic (Dec 2, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> ok crazy lol


We can ALL BE CRAZY!!!!!


----------



## sith (Dec 2, 2022)

MikaDubbz said:


> It's like how it doesn't surprise me when people that think 9/11 was entirely an inside job also turn out to think the moon landing was fake or that the earth is flat.


i know you don't get irony but you are conflating unrelated things to try and throw shade by association but all you show is that you think 2 planes can demolish 3 buildings to dust in free fall, that people could go with golfcarts to the moon and back in 1970 without harm and prove even people incapable of critical thinking understand that the earth is spherical.


----------



## CommanderCool (Dec 2, 2022)

Doran754 said:


> I found the wannabe dictator.


i found the wannabe bitch afraid of needles


----------



## sombrerosonic (Dec 2, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> i found the wannabe bitch afraid of needles


I found my new bitch


----------



## linuxares (Dec 2, 2022)

Man I wish I had taken a 3rd shot now... COVID sucks.. ugh..thankfully I seem to have passed the worst now but it was no joke. I was not far of needing to go to the ER since the fever didn't want to stabilize to under 41C.


----------



## EldritchPenumbra (Dec 2, 2022)

It's official now, the lock down solved nothing and locations that didn't lock down fared better in the long run than those that did.  It has been proven and admitted that the masks were useless and that the vaccine isn't a vaccine at all, but rather the definition of vaccine was altered for the benefit of peddling the shot as a vaccine. It won't prevent you from getting covid nor does it stop you from spreading it. It will not boost your imune system, but it might weaken it, if not clog your blood stream with a strange stringy substance that doctors and morticians are only now being able to talk about on some main stream social platforms. The only thing that did go according to plan is what Yuval Noah Harari, lead advisor at the world economic forum has said, that being that the shot will go down as,"the point in history where surveillance under the skin began."

Of course why believe me, all this can be confirmed on the official web sites of the CDC, World Economic Forum, United Nations, and World Health Organization of others, but who reads that?


----------



## lolcatzuru (Dec 2, 2022)

linuxares said:


> Man I wish I had taken a 3rd shot now... COVID sucks.. ugh..thankfully I seem to have passed the worst now but it was no joke. I was not far of needing to go to the ER since the fever didn't want to stabilize to under 41C.



why? it wouldnt have helped?


----------



## linuxares (Dec 2, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> why? it wouldnt have helped?


Source?


----------



## lolcatzuru (Dec 2, 2022)

EldritchPenumbra said:


> It's official now, the lock down solved nothing and locations that didn't lock down fared better in the long run than those that did.  It has been proven and admitted that the masks were useless and that the vaccine isn't a vaccine at all, but rather the definition of vaccine was altered for the benefit of peddling the shot as a vaccine. It won't prevent you from getting covid nor does it stop you from spreading it. It will not boost your imune system, but it might weaken it, if not clog your blood stream with a strange stringy substance that doctors and morticians are only now being able to talk about on some main stream social platforms. The only thing that did go according to plan is what Yuval Noah Harari, lead advisor at the world economic forum has said, that being that the shot will go down as,"the point in history where surveillance under the skin began."
> 
> Of course why believe me, all this can be confirmed on the official web sites of the CDC, World Economic Forum, United Nations, and World Health Organization of others, but who reads that?



also, they used the term vaccine because thats was the only way to get it through emergency act


----------



## sombrerosonic (Dec 2, 2022)

linuxares said:


> Man I wish I had taken a 3rd shot now... COVID sucks.. ugh..thankfully I seem to have passed the worst now but it was no joke. I was not far of needing to go to the ER since the fever didn't want to stabilize to under 41C.


Didn't get the vax over here (Mom was afraid it would hurt me), i got covid one and it was shit, my head hurt, No school, and the coughing was horrid.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 2, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Didn't get the vax over here (Mom was afraid it would hurt me), i got covid one and it was shit, my head hurt, No school, and the coughing was horrid.


Yepp, first shot was fine for me. The second one gave me a headache for 3 days. But it's normal after all.


----------



## EldritchPenumbra (Dec 2, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> also, they used the term vaccine because thats was the only way to get it through emergency act


That's a better wording of what I meant.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Dec 2, 2022)

linuxares said:


> Yepp, first shot was fine for me. The second one gave me a headache for 3 days. But it's normal after all.


My dad got the vax, he wasn't ok for a few days. I honestly didn't want to get it because i was very afraid of it.... and i still am, i only need my essentials and ill be ok.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 2, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> My dad got the vax, he wasn't ok for a few days. I honestly didn't want to get it because i was very afraid of it.... and i still am, i only need my essentials and ill be ok.


Everyone is different. A former colleague felt like a truck had hit him after the first one. A lot of others I spoken to never noticed anything after their shots.
My theory is just how hard our immune systems reach to the vaccines.


----------



## Zyvyn (Dec 2, 2022)

linuxares said:


> Yepp, first shot was fine for me. The second one gave me a headache for 3 days. But it's normal after all.


Yeah I had one day after my 2nd or 3rd shot where I got a little sick. But I'm unsure if it was related as I was having health issues around then.


----------



## Minox (Dec 4, 2022)

linuxares said:


> Everyone is different. A former colleague felt like a truck had hit him after the first one. A lot of others I spoken to never noticed anything after their shots.
> My theory is just how hard our immune systems reach to the vaccines.


Yep, it really seems to vary a lot depending on the person. First shot I got hit me like a truck and I had aches/troubles breathing properly for about 3 weeks. Second one didn't really affect me much at all.

I'm not intending to take any more shots though as the risk/reward doesn't seem worth it for me personally.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 4, 2022)

Where is the option to inject COVID directly and get it over with?


----------



## CommanderCool (Dec 4, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Where is the option to inject COVID directly and get it over with?


what the fuck do you think a vaccine is?


----------



## tabzer (Dec 4, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> what the fuck do you think a vaccine is?


An mRNA substitute?


----------



## Minox (Dec 4, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> what the fuck do you think a vaccine is?


The whole deal with the mRNA vaccines was that it wouldn't inject the virus itself. That being said, there are also vaccines that do just that.


----------



## tabzer (Dec 4, 2022)

Minox said:


> The whole deal with the mRNA vaccines was that it wouldn't inject the virus itself. That being said, there are also vaccines that do just that.


Tbf most vaccines have additives with a weakened state of the virus.  

I'd prefer the whole enchilada, and would pay out of pocket.  I have a vacation coming up.


----------



## linuxares (Dec 4, 2022)

Minox said:


> Yep, it really seems to vary a lot depending on the person. First shot I got hit me like a truck and I had aches/troubles breathing properly for about 3 weeks. Second one didn't really affect me much at all.
> 
> I'm not intending to take any more shots though as the risk/reward doesn't seem worth it for me personally.


I think I will fill up now after this... As it was I were 2 times close to the ER if the fever didn't go down. But it did.


----------



## Minox (Dec 4, 2022)

linuxares said:


> I think I will fill up now after this... As it was I were 2 times close to the ER if the fever didn't go down. But it did.


I think that's fair enough. Everyone should make the choice they think is best for them


----------



## lolcatzuru (Dec 4, 2022)

Zyvyn said:


> Yeah I had one day after my 2nd or 3rd shot where I got a little sick. But I'm unsure if it was related as I was having health issues around then.



you dont need to be, it was


----------



## Zyvyn (Dec 5, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> you dont need to be, it was


You are coming off as the kind of person who is just going to blame anything on it.


----------



## lolcatzuru (Dec 5, 2022)

Zyvyn said:


> You are coming off as the kind of person who is just going to blame anything on it.



well im sorry you have that impression, you are coming off as the type of person who isnt listen to what anyone says about it if you dont morally agree with it.


----------



## CommanderCool (Dec 5, 2022)

lolcatzuru said:


> well im sorry you have that impression, you are coming off as the type of person who isnt listen to what anyone says about it if you dont morally agree with it.


implying you have any moral high ground to stand on with any sort of antivaxxing opinion


----------



## Zyvyn (Dec 5, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> implying you have any moral high ground to stand on with any sort of antivaxxing opinion


That was stated due to the reply I recieved being them showing a moral high ground. I don't really care what peoples opinions are. I just don't care for people who constantly say that one opinion is wrong.


----------

