# ‘Transgender’ Could Be Defined Out of Existence Under Trump Administration



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html

Couple of highlights:



> the department argued in its memo that key government agencies needed to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender as determined “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable.” The agency’s proposed definition would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times. Any dispute about one’s sex would have to be clarified using genetic testing.





> “Sex means a person’s status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth,” the department proposed in the memo, which was drafted and has been circulating since last spring. “The sex listed on a person’s birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person’s sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence.”





> The move would be the most significant of a series of maneuvers, large and small, to exclude the population from civil rights protections and roll back the Obama administration’s more fluid recognition of gender identity. The Trump administration has sought to bar transgender people from serving in the military and has legally challenged civil rights protections for the group embedded in the nation’s health care law.





> For the last year, the Department of Health and Human Services has privately argued that the term “sex” was never meant to include gender identity or even homosexuality, and that the lack of clarity allowed the Obama administration to wrongfully extend civil rights protections to people who should not have them.



--

My take: so yeah, this is uh... Bad. With the capital B. This would pretty much eradicate someone being trans in America on a legal perspective. The act seems driven by little more than pettiness and religious pushing. (America is totally secular guys.)

Fuck Trump and the group of idiots that came with him.


----------



## Jayro (Oct 22, 2018)

As someone who thought long and hard about transitioning, I also find this stupid.


----------



## The Real Jdbye (Oct 22, 2018)

This is just retarded and I feel like a lot of people are going to be moving elsewhere as a result.
Everyone has different opinions on the whole trans thing but just pretending it doesn't exist is not the solution.


----------



## kuwanger (Oct 22, 2018)

"the department argued in its memo that key government agencies needed to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender"

Ah, yes.  Just like key government agencies need to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of race, creed, sexual orientation, and favorite flavor of ice cream.  Because without that sort of information on each individual citizen, the government cannot function.


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Oct 22, 2018)

small government... except when you know, you have to tell other people how to live their lives. 
This is so wrong.


----------



## Taleweaver (Oct 22, 2018)

Sigh... I could've predicted something like this in advance. With that mid-term election coming up, the population needs to be distracted once again (the thing circulated since spring .. How come this is only public now?). 

Other than the timing being good in an evil way, it shows how little the current government knows. It's there really no one who might have thought that this pisses all over transgenders rights?


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 22, 2018)

This is the kind of government overreach that Republicans should be against. This is literally the government interfering with the lives of their people for no reason other than to be involved.


----------



## Jayro (Oct 22, 2018)

I live under Tyrant Trump's rulings, and he's truly awful. Clueless about how the world actually operates from any perspective that isn't a business deal shitting all over everyone. I have many trans friends, and this actually breaks my heart that my country's shitty leader is trying to erase their identities. I took Obama for granted, and I miss him deeply.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

1984:
"They first started by subverting the language... For if you control the language, you control the people."

My God, he genuinely wants to overthrow the government. He wants to create a totalitarian society with him at the top.


----------



## ItsMetaKnight (Oct 22, 2018)

That would actually finally be something good.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

To be fair, though, unless I'm misreading this, they only want sex to mean 'biological yada yada'. Which honestly I think is fair. The male and female body are wildly different. If a doctor mistakes you for a girl and gives you medicine designed for a girl, it could really mess you up.

This comes from first hand experience, btw. Not trans, just very feminine.


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> To be fair, though, unless I'm misreading this, they only want sex to mean 'biological yada yada'. Which honestly I think is fair. The male and female body are wildly different. If a doctor mistakes you for a girl and gives you medicine designed for a girl, it could really mess you up.
> 
> This comes from first hand experience, btw. Not trans, just very feminine.


But it's still an extreme overreach. This isn't something the government should be involved with, both the medical field side and the definition of the word side. Sex, gender, sexuality, and such shouldn't be defined by the government. This also goes for medical malpractice, that's something that already has it's own thing.


----------



## kuwanger (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> If a doctor mistakes you for a girl and gives you medicine designed for a girl, it could really mess you up.



That'd be a valid point...if the health care system was part of the US government.  Meanwhile, there's things like intersex or ethnicity which also can have medical implications, but that doesn't justify the government knowing anything about it.  Health records are specifically one of the things that are meant to be confidential precisely because they're potentially very abusable.

Really, if I want to tell one part of the government I'm 2 foot tall, blue, and one of my parents is literally from Venus*, it's really none of their business to refute me.  At best for limited identification purposes, it might make sense that the government may take a picture and may give their subjective impression of my appearance.  The other 99.99% of the time, though, it's entirely irrelevant.

* As long as I was born in the US or have one US parent, it should be irrelevant in all cases.  In many cases, it wouldn't matter if both my parents were from Venus and I was born on Mars.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> But it's still an extreme overreach. This isn't something the government should be involved with, both the medical field side and the definition of the word side. Sex, gender, sexuality, and such shouldn't be defined by the government. This also goes for medical malpractice, that's something that already has it's own thing.



I do agree that it's a step too far too fast(That's why it screams 1984 to me). But at the same time, I hesitate to say it was entirely wrong in principle. There are serious dangers in getting sex mixed up in the medical field.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And besides, doesn't this only apply to 'key government departments?'


----------



## ItsMetaKnight (Oct 22, 2018)

Jayro said:


> Shallow minds have shallow thoughts.


Why are you getting personal and insult me? I just have the opinion that there is only male and female, and that you have to deal with what you are born with. Going against it is like fighting nature. To me it looks like a psychological disorder, not a "gender variant" or whatever.
This is a discussion thread and if you don't tolerate different opinions, you should not be here.
Insuting me just for saying my opinion is really uncalled for.


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> To be fair, though, unless I'm misreading this, they only want sex to mean 'biological yada yada'. Which honestly I think is fair. The male and female body are wildly different. If a doctor mistakes you for a girl and gives you medicine designed for a girl, it could really mess you up.
> 
> This comes from first hand experience, btw. Not trans, just very feminine.


The problem is that this is how it's listed on official documents. Realistically outside of medical documents (which I suppose is either already covered or just takes a second to clear up), there is _zero_ reason to specify someone's biological gender on official documents. This is the reasoning as to why changing this on a government document (so say, your passport or drivers license) is considered to be permissible (unless the document is in use bc you got in trouble w/ the legal system, in which case, though shit, gotta wait that out).

The problem that this creates is that it gets "rid" of people being violent against people who identify as trans (quotation marks since the violence still exists, it's just no longer considered a crime specificially _because_ they were trans, which would be a hate crime), gets rid of the rights trans people have needed to get in order to not get harassed (and even then in America that's still an issue.) and just _gets rid of trans peoples existence in general_. Make your "can't commit crimes against trans people if you make sure they don't legally exist" jokes, but realize that this is literally the end goal with this.

It basically prevents people from IDing as trans and having said status recognized by a legal body in cases of say:

Getting send to jail for comitting a crime (you'd end up being send to the jail which your legal document recognizes, which would mean you get locked up as the sole female in a jail filled with males or vice versa.)
Having a defense against people starting harassment campaigns or comitting violence against you for being trans and having this recognized as a hate crime.


----------



## Taffy (Oct 22, 2018)

Not to sound insensitive, but where do most people stand on the subject of gender changing? Like, do most people who change identify as what they changed to? Or do they identify as something in-between?

I see nothing wrong with it... if somebody wants to be a girl or a boy instead of a boy or a girl then so be it.

but I mean, make up your mind. don't be constantly changing your gender all the time...


----------



## Jayro (Oct 22, 2018)

ItsMetaKnight said:


> Why are you getting personal and insult me? I just have the opinion that there is only male and female, and that you have to deal with what you are born with. Going against it is like fighting nature.
> This is a discussion thread and if you don't tolerate different opinions, you should not be here.
> Insuting me just for saying my opinion is really uncalled for.


Not trying to, that's just a very shallow way of thinking. It's not open-minded like society needs right now. I didn't mean to offend you directly.


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> I do agree that it's a step too far too fast(That's why it screams 1984 to me). But at the same time, I hesitate to say it was entirely wrong in principle. There are serious dangers in getting sex mixed up in the medical field.


But that's something that shouldn't require this kind of approach. Medical malpractice should be handled on a case-by-case basis. As well I don't see how this kind of approach would be related to malpractice.


----------



## kuwanger (Oct 22, 2018)

ItsMetaKnight said:


> Going against it is like fighting nature.



I don't know.  Nature spent a lot of time and effort burying all those life forms, putting them under extreme pressure and temperature, and then converting them to a soup of hydrocarbons.  I guess we should leave well enough alone and not fight nature by pumping/digging it up and burning it.  Same thing for an earthquake knocks down a building.  Or rain leaking through a roof.

I mean, the whole progress of technology heavily hinges on exploiting nature precisely to fight nature because nature sucks*.

* Watch enough documentaries on parasites and you'll probably agree.


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

ItsMetaKnight said:


> Why are you getting personal and insult me? I just have the opinion that there is only male and female, and that you have to deal with what you are born with. Going against it is like fighting nature. To me it looks like a psychological disorder.
> This is a discussion thread and if you don't tolerate different opinions, you should not be here.
> Insuting me just for saying my opinion is really uncalled for.


So instead of considering that a good solution to "hey, maybe person x is uncomfortable in their own body and feels much happier by being the opposite gender" is "let them identify as to what gender they want to be" (since yknow, that makes them happy, Occams Razor means that this is the easiest solution to the problem) you'd rather go on directly and force them to be uncomfortable and unhappy by denying any right they could have when it comes to these matters or _protecting them from _close-minded individuals that refuse to recognize them and would commit violent acts against them for wanting to be happy.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> The problem is that this is how it's listed on official documents. Realistically outside of medical documents (which I suppose is either already covered or just takes a second to clear up), there is _zero_ reason to specify someone's biological gender on official documents. This is the reasoning as to why changing this on a government document (so say, your passport or drivers license) is considered to be permissible (unless the document is in use bc you got in trouble w/ the legal system, in which case, though shit, gotta wait that out).
> 
> The problem that this creates is that it gets "rid" of people being violent against people who identify as trans (quotation marks since the violence still exists, it's just no longer considered a crime specificially _because_ they were trans, which would be a hate crime), gets rid of the rights trans people have needed to get in order to not get harassed (and even then in America that's still an issue.) and just _gets rid of trans peoples existence in general_. Make your "can't commit crimes against trans people if you make sure they don't legally exist" jokes, but realize that this is literally the end goal with this.
> 
> ...





Lilith Valentine said:


> But that's something that shouldn't require this kind of approach. Medical malpractice should be handled on a case-by-case basis. As well I don't see how this kind of approach would be related to malpractice.



Yeah, and on top of this it also sets a bad precedent. There's a very slippery slope we take if this gets passed, and I really don't like it.


----------



## silvershadow (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> To be fair, though, unless I'm misreading this, they only want sex to mean 'biological yada yada'. Which honestly I think is fair. The male and female body are wildly different. If a doctor mistakes you for a girl and gives you medicine designed for a girl, it could really mess you up.
> 
> This comes from first hand experience, btw. Not trans, just very feminine.



I agree.

But ill add: this law doesnt change the kind of person you are. If it does, then you have other issues that you need to take care of unrelated to the government. (possibly mind/mental issues). The term "mental" doesnt have to mean something negative.

"you cant be soo weakminded that what other people think, makes you change who you are. Fuck them. You are still you, only difference is a few legal government stuff".


I do not feel sympathy for transgender people that want to identify themself to the whole world as transgender. I will feel sympathy though for someone that was born with a "V" but went their whole life calling themself a male. This would be hard for them. I would say they should be allowed to call themselves male still and not have to start calling themselves female. (and ofcourse vice versa)

I understand not everyone will feel the same way though. Opinion is opinion and i hope i didnt offend anyone with the above.


----------



## kuwanger (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> you'd rather go on directly and force them to be uncomfortable and unhappy by denying any right they could have when it comes to these matters



Well, as we all know the 1st Commandment is to be uncomfortable and unhappy.  The 2nd Commandment is to try to make everyone else equally uncomfortable and unhappy.


----------



## Taffy (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> To be fair, though, unless I'm misreading this, they only want sex to mean 'biological yada yada'. Which honestly I think is fair. The male and female body are wildly different. If a doctor mistakes you for a girl and gives you medicine designed for a girl, it could really mess you up.
> 
> This comes from first hand experience, btw. Not trans, just very feminine.



So if you decide to make the switch, you're not actually that gender from a biological/medical stance? Like if you need some kind of medical attention, if you're a girl who became a guy then you can't take guy medicine or bad stuff happens?

Or are you just saying if you're a girl who looks like a boy and a doctor mistakes you for a boy and you get boy medicine things happen?


this concept confuses me ._.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

Taffy said:


> So if you decide to make the switch, you're not actually that gender from a biological/medical stance? Like if you need some kind of medical attention, if you're a girl who became a guy then you can't take guy medicine or bad stuff happens?
> 
> 
> this concept confuses me ._.



Well... Yeah... I mean, if I woke up tomorrow and said f*** it, ima be woman, I would identify as a woman, and that's fine. But that doesn't change the fact that I have a d***.[1] I would still have wildly different hormones and chemicals and etc, then a woman with a 'V'.

Those hormones make all the difference in Medicine, as it's been proven repeatedly that many cures and drugs that have one effect on a guy have different effects on women and vice versa.

I got mistaken for a gal one time and got some over the counter drugs. I was vomiting all night. I later found on the side "Unsutiable for men, may have adverse side effects."

[1]If you have it cut off its a different story, but I won't get into that.


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 22, 2018)

Taffy said:


> So if you decide to make the switch, you're not actually that gender from a biological/medical stance? Like if you need some kind of medical attention, if you're a girl who became a guy then you can't take guy medicine or bad stuff happens?
> 
> Or are you just saying if you're a girl who looks like a boy and a doctor mistakes you for a boy and you get boy medicine things happen?
> 
> ...


I'll shoot you a PM because I know this conversation will derail the thread something horrible.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I'll shoot you a PM because I know this conversation will derail the thread something horrible.



Too late. Already accidentally did it, lol.


----------



## Brayton (Oct 22, 2018)

AAAAAAAAAAAA! PEOPLE ALREADY THINK I'M A BOY! BIOLOGICALLY YES, BUT STILL!


----------



## kevin corms (Oct 22, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> But it's still an extreme overreach. This isn't something the government should be involved with, both the medical field side and the definition of the word side. Sex, gender, sexuality, and such shouldn't be defined by the government. This also goes for medical malpractice, that's something that already has it's own thing.


Who should define it then? People can do what they want to themselves, but they cant actually change what they are... Whats next people will identify as cats? Or maybe im tired of being a white male, maybe I can just become a black man now? I think its time we used some common sense.


----------



## Exannor (Oct 22, 2018)

From what I've read only from the highlights(I haven't read the entire nytimes news article yet), is that this is entirely biologically based and not based on what you think you are.

In my opinion, this topic is being blown out of proportion and this can be an actually good thing for getting the right care. A couple of comments on this post already state that especially with our current status on the laws of healthcare. While I do think there should be an added bit that states whether or not the person has transitioned or not (which would also give away to the doctor or even police officer what sort of hormonal drugs the patient has been taking) on official documents, this is still just a memo so they are only talking about it right now and it might still be in the works or may need to be ironed out a bit more, they might not actually put it into law or not even put it on official documents.


----------



## AmandaRose (Oct 22, 2018)

kevin corms said:


> People can do what they want to themselves, but they cant actually change what they are.


Hmm so my birth certificate says I am female. My government class me as female. I have all the same rights as any other female. I look like a female. I think like a female I talk life a female dress like a female smell like a female. But no @kevin corms has spoken and according to him I am still male lol.

Oh and for the record Kevin I didn't change who I was I BECAME WHO I ALWAYS WAS.

*#WontBeErased*


----------



## kuwanger (Oct 22, 2018)

kevin corms said:


> Who should define it then?



Uh, no one?  Again, there's no point in the government needing this information or otherwise defining it.  If you go to a hospital and give functionally incorrect information* and it results in you being hurt, then you suffer the consequences.



kevin corms said:


> Whats next people will identify as cats? Or maybe im tired of being a white male, maybe I can just become a black man now? I think its time we used some common sense.



Common sense is you don't ask questions that are irrelevant or try to push round pegs into square holes just to fulfill some bureaucratic obsession.  If I want to identify as a cat, well, why the fuck does the government form even have a box for that?

* If a drug reacts to the balance of hormones in the body, then that's what's relevant.  If you think your ancestry is from North Africa but it's more from India and that causes adverse side effects in medication, again you suffer the consequences.

Edit:  Okay, here's the real problem.  It's not that government wants to have forms that have you "say M or F".  It's that the whole purpose of "defining" gender is to use as a tool of oppression.  "Oh, you wrote 'M' on one form and 'F' on another  That's fraud!"  There's no functional reason for including it except to oppress those who may answer differently at some time in their life.  Can you imagine even the potential of going to jail because you answered some form with inconsistent or inaccurate information about your ethnicity?  That's "natural" too yet we've steered very clear of trying to codify that into law (at least in modern times) for good reason--we have a long history of oppression in codified racism.  It's the same bullshit that was pulled with the "Defense of Marriage Act".  I see no purpose in government attempting to dictate to people what they are or not or how they should live their own lives.


----------



## Vorpal Blade (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> [Realistically] outside of medical documents [there] is _zero_ reason to specify someone's biological gender on official documents.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> ...



So where exactly is the line drawn here for you? From my understanding, you think it is okay to have biological sex in the privacy of medical documents; but in all public sectors you can inherit any sex-related privilege you want?

Biological sex swapping would open up a realm of abuse in the public sphere. It just seems too convenient to have the law manipulated to your desires — as seen by your examples: Y could be sent to an X prison; and broadening criminality with the institution of “hate” crimes. Two other controversial scenarios are: locker/bath rooms and sports. Both scenarios benefit the most with its respective sex.

There is nothing Orwellian about keeping things practical and uniform. A structured society needs definitive laws to maintain order. What would actually be Orwellian is if it was _illegal_ to identify a different gender.


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Oct 22, 2018)

kevin corms said:


> Whats next people will identify as cats? Or maybe im tired of being a white male, maybe I can just become a black man now? I think its time we used some common sense.


Too late, dude.
Fursonas are already a thing lol
inb4 people want to be identified as furries in their driver's license too.
Oh and vitiligo is a thing as well 


But now for the serious stuff, it makes sense from a medical standpoint to specify either one or the other.
If you go for a checkup or require attention, medicines tend to have a lot of side-effects, and they are dependant of sex of the individual.
If you are taking hormones, or made the transition, or whatever, you still need to be treated by the sex you were born as, not the one you transitioned to.

This gets even more dangerous if you are under heavy doses of medicaments or drugs which affect hormones and additional stuff you might require if you just under-went the change.
If medicine has its side-effects by itself, now image the catastrophic results it would have if you are under heavy doses of other stuff which greatly changes how your body works.

Now from a government standpoint...
I don't really care to be honest, it's unnecessary that they make such a change when people of the LGBT community could already be identified as whatever the heck they want.

This only makes sense in a medical standpoint, not a government one.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 22, 2018)

Is this true?

After the media lied about Trump and the anti illegal immigration and child separation, I don’t trust what they say at face value anymore. 

You can find video’s of Democrats on camera, like Hillary, Bill Clinton, Obama, Dianne Feinstein (You’ll recognize from the Kavanaugh case) saying that we need to tighten our borders and stop criminals from entering this country. Yet no one called them racist, and people act like Trump was the first one to say it. Then they lie about how Trump is handling this, lie about how kids are treated when separated, and show pictures of illegal immigrant kids taken during the Obama era and blame it on Trump. And the Democratic Party pretends they were always for open borders but video footage says otherwise.

I just don’t trust what the media says at all. Too many times I caught them lying. I’m going to research this transgender thing more to see if there is something missing to the story that they aren’t telling you. If it’s true then i’m against it, if not then it’s another case of media lying.


----------



## ShadowOne333 (Oct 22, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Is this true?
> 
> After the media lied about Trump and the anti illegal immigration and child separation, I don’t trust what they say at face value anymore.
> 
> ...


How was the illegal immigration and child separation a lie?
Dude, I live at the border, and believe me, it is way too real.


----------



## kuwanger (Oct 22, 2018)

SG854 said:


> You can find video’s of Democrats on camera, like Hillary, Bill Clinton, Obama, Dianne Feinstein (You’ll recognize from the Kavanaugh case) saying that we need to tighten our borders and stop criminals from entering this country. Yet no one called them racist, and people act like Trump was the first one to say it.



If you want to talk about this in a separate thread...


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> So instead of considering that a good solution to "hey, maybe person x is uncomfortable in their own body and feels much happier by being the opposite gender" is "let them identify as to what gender they want to be" (since yknow, that makes them happy, Occams Razor means that this is the easiest solution to the problem) you'd rather go on directly and force them to be uncomfortable and unhappy by denying any right they could have when it comes to these matters or _protecting them from _close-minded individuals that refuse to recognize them and would commit violent acts against them for wanting to be happy.


The fact that you, yourself are being closed minded about someone else's views is exactly why politics and GBAtemp should never intertwine. These threads always spiral down so damn fast because of attitudes like yours.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



AmandaRose said:


> Trump is one step away from growing a mustache and having his deluded followers goose steping around the country. What next does he build gas Chambers then have his followers round up every transgender in the land??
> 
> Sorry Trump we refuse to and
> *#WontBeErased*


Not gonna lie, I can't wait until this administration is done and over with. It's become the worst meme in US history.


----------



## AkikoKumagara (Oct 22, 2018)

Because living our lives isn't hard enough already...


----------



## k7ra (Oct 22, 2018)

Jayro said:


> I live under Tyrant Trump's rulings, and he's truly awful. Clueless about how the world actually operates from any perspective that isn't a business deal shitting all over everyone. I have many trans friends, and this actually breaks my heart that my country's shitty leader is trying to erase their identities. I took Obama for granted, and I miss him deeply.


Check Russia, UK, China and other places.
Trump is nice if compare with other presidents.
And trans is trans, but they should not hide it male trans, woman trans.
They should have same gender standards that ppl receive by birth.
It's their choice to live their lives as trans, but they still same what their parents make them


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

Memoir said:


> The fact that you, yourself are being closed minded about someone else's views is exactly why politics and GBAtemp should never intertwine. These threads always spiral down so damn fast because of attitudes like yours


Kindly do explain how I'm being "closed minded" by giving a proper counter to his argument.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



k7ra said:


> Check Russia, UK, China and other places.
> Trump is nice if compare with other presidents.
> And trans is trans, but they should not hide it male trans, woman trans.
> They should have same gender standards that ppl receive by birth.
> It's their choice to live their lives as trans, but they still same what their parents make them


Just because it's more shit elsewhere does not mean you can't complain about the shortcomings of where you live.

By that logic, the only ones allowed to complain about anything are the people currently living in warzones whose houses have been destroyed and currently have to hope for rescue workers to arrive.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

(also being trans/gay/bi isn't a choice, that kind of attitude is used by homophobes and transphobes to defend their shitty views)


----------



## Drak0rex (Oct 22, 2018)

Yes! MAKE BIOLOGY GREAT AGAIN! I'm fully on board. Way too many special little snowflakes begging for attention. The world has much more serious issues than little boys who want to grow up to be little girls.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

wew


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

Drak0rex said:


> Yes! MAKE BIOLOGY GREAT AGAIN! I'm fully on board. Way too many special little snowflakes begging for attention. The world has much more serious issues than little boys who want to grow up to be little girls.


Except the Trump administration is going out of its way to repeal this and there is zero motivation for this move that would go under "fixing more serious issues".

If as you say, they care about more serious issues, they wouldn't even be concerning themselves with this subject at all.


----------



## k7ra (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Kindly do explain how I'm being "closed minded" by giving a proper counter to his argument.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Oh, so if I complain against trans it is fine???
Because then: gays, trans and other ppl would come and cry thats not normal.
But originally its other way
Many ppl shut up and acept ppl like that, because if you said anything then you would have problems.

Well, like I said before: It's their life and their choices, so they should not spread it on others.
And no government can change the way ppl wiling to live as they like.

But gender should be writen that you receive on birth


----------



## Ericthegreat (Oct 22, 2018)

ItsMetaKnight said:


> Why are you getting personal and insult me? I just have the opinion that there is only male and female, and that you have to deal with what you are born with. Going against it is like fighting nature. To me it looks like a psychological disorder, not a "gender variant" or whatever.
> This is a discussion thread and if you don't tolerate different opinions, you should not be here.
> Insuting me just for saying my opinion is really uncalled for.


From what I read, and I don't know much about this, it's the department of health and human services, so maybe they do need to know your biological identity? I hope everyone agrees there are medical emergencys where someone might need to know your gender, and though yes we have electronic medical records, they still can take a long time to pull up. (The same issue as "do not resuscitate" which I do support under certain circumstances.) Maybe they could have you registered that separately, or how about if we had "gender" and "birth gender" fields? Could also be when they scan your driver's in a hospital?


----------



## Kallus (Oct 22, 2018)

This is good.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

this is a complicated issue, we need to listen to everyone


----------



## leon315 (Oct 22, 2018)

> Any dispute about one’s sex would have to be clarified using genetic testing.



well he's not my president, and i don't live in states, but i agree with him, sex CAN NOT be changes and there are only 2 on this planet:
-XX;
-XY;

even the individual's appearance has been alternated through surgery.


----------



## Harumyne (Oct 22, 2018)

As a psychonaut with years of otherworldly testing I have come to find the spirit whatever you will call it upon ego death is genderless, some people aren't capable of living by what their meatsuit was configured for, you will all laugh but maybe not on the next level.

I'm going to say that politics is politics and that nobody should change based on what some tyrant says.
See: divide and rule.

What does this actually change? who gives a shit really if that person down the street wants to live as a female? I'm not going to go about ranting political correctness at them, I would be the fucking idiot.

People should just do what they want, and don't forget all the real bad shit big bully America is doing to it's people and other countries' people, also your privacy doesn't exist.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

I dated a transgender girl and most of you cant imagine the amount of shit they have to go through. I got to see first hand how much it affected her. Stuff like this only makes it worse. It genuinely ruins lives to be invalidated like this. And I know people will say you shouldnt let what other people say get to you or it's just science, but you really have no clue what being in that position is like. Its easy to say they dont have it bad from the outside.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

IMO there needs to be some regulation towards the whole identification process, otherwise government documents such as a driving license or passport is going to be completely swamped by totally different options for gender that some countries may not recognize.


----------



## Kallus (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> I dated a transgender girl and most of you cant imagine the amount of shit they have to go through. I got to see first hand how much it affected her. Stuff like this only makes it worse. It genuinely ruins lives to be invalidated like this. And I know people will say you shouldnt let what other people say get to you or it's just science, but you really have no clue what being in that position is like. Its easy to say they dont have it bad from the outside.



Gender is a permanent label people shouldn't get worked up over. You can act like the opposite gender as much as your heart desires but when the government is involved it's going to always be the real deal. What's on paper does not "invalidate" anybody at all. It's nothing to get worked up over, as I said.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kallus said:


> Gender is a permanent label people shouldn't get worked up over. You can act like the opposite gender as much as your heart desires but when the government is involved it's going to always be the real deal. What's on paper does not "invalidate" anybody at all. It's nothing to get worked up over, as I said.


This exactly what I'm talking about. You can say its nothing to get worked up over because it doesnt affect you. It never will affect you. 
What you're missing is that they arent acting like the other gender. They internally are the other gender and are stuck in the wrong body.


----------



## guisadop (Oct 22, 2018)

Nice. So-called "transexuals" make up only 0.7% of the population, there really shouldn't be widespread acceptance of them.


----------



## Harumyne (Oct 22, 2018)

Just like how people living in the west mostly won't see the injustice the world is receiving, for example if you were born in Syria.

People in the west will go on as they do without worrying about being bombed by an English or American drone for example, so why care?

Apathy fucking sucks, and this goes for most people not on the side suffering, pretending it doesn't exist because they don't feel it.


----------



## Kallus (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> This exactly what I'm talking about. You can say its nothing to get worked up over because it doesnt affect you. It never will affect you.
> What you're missing is that they arent acting like the other gender. They internally are the other gender and are stuck in the wrong body.



That's where you're wrong buddy. I've been friends and worked with transgender people. They do not care what it says on the papers. They understand they are not the gender they claim to be, it's just a social thing for them and they get it. The only thing they value is how they are treated by people around them. Not a dumb label.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Elemi said:


> Just like how people living in the west mostly won't see the injustice the world is receiving, for example if you were born in Syria.
> 
> People in the west will go on as they do without worrying about being bombed by an English or American drone for example, so why care?
> 
> Apathy fucking sucks, and this goes for most people not on the side suffering, pretending it doesn't exist because they don't feel it.


It's very sad


----------



## Darth Meteos (Oct 22, 2018)

liberty for all
until it's personal liberty, then we gotta put our foot down
too many heathens in this christian country


----------



## Asia81 (Oct 22, 2018)

Good thing, nice move trump.
Now we need this for france.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kallus said:


> That's where you're wrong buddy. I've been friends and worked with transgender people. They do not care what it says on the papers. They understand they are not the gender they claim to be, it's just a social thing for them and they get it. The only thing they value is how they are treated by people around them. Not a dumb label.


That is completely false. Transgender people are fighting hard to be recognized by the government. It's not a dumb label, when your country itself is invalidating you it can be crippling. You're arguing for the continued oppression of people and for the government to dictate peoples own identity to them. Transgender people are not the gender they are born as, that's the whole point. They were born as the wrong gender and it causes dysphoria.


----------



## Kallus (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> That is completely false. Transgender people are fighting hard to be recognized by the government. It's not a dumb label, when your country itself is invalidating you it can be crippling. You're arguing for the continued oppression of people and for the government to dictate peoples own identity to them. Transgender people are not the gender they are born as, that's the whole point. They were born as the wrong gender and it causes dysphoria.



Yes, it is a dumb label. Don't get worked up over it.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Identities are self created


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kallus said:


> Yes, it is a dumb label. Don't get worked up over it.


Again, you dont get to dictate that the label is dumb. The transgender community has generally been outspoken about caring what they are labeled as.


----------



## WeedZ (Oct 22, 2018)

You guys know this isnt a ban on trisitioning right? You do realize that this is already how government works..? Its a measure to keep it from changing, like allowing laws that would let people change birth records and whatnot.


----------



## nando (Oct 22, 2018)

ShadowOne333 said:


> How was the illegal immigration and child separation a lie?
> Dude, I live at the border, and believe me, it is way too real.




trump told him bad negative news about trump are lies, therefore they are lies.


----------



## Kallus (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Again, you dont get to dictate that the label is dumb. The transgender community has generally been outspoken about caring what they are labeled as.



The person above your post, who is trans, does not buy the "born in the wrong body" stuff. Not all trans people are like your girlfriend.


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> You guys know this isnt a ban on trisitioning right? You do realize that this is already how government works..? Its a measure to keep it from changing, like allowing laws that would let people change birth records and whatnot.


It'd also prevent someone who is trans for being recognized as such ie. when it comes to going to the bathroom they want to.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Again, you dont get to dictate that the label is dumb. The transgender community has generally been outspoken about caring what they are labeled as.


Thats true, you cant invalidate them


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

Kallus said:


> The person above your post, who is trans, does not buy the "born in the wrong body" stuff. Not all trans people are like your girlfriend.


Lemme compare this to another time another minority group was oppressed. Remember slavery/post slavery oppression? It might shock you that there were black people who were fine with it. Doesnt make it ok. Just because someone isnt bothered by it doesnt mean that it isnt bad.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Lemme compare this to another time another minority group was oppressed. Remember slavery/post slavery oppression? It might shock you that there were black people who were fine with it. Doesnt make it ok. Just because someone isnt bothered by it doesnt mean that it isnt bad.


We've normalized it


----------



## WeedZ (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> It'd also prevent someone who is trans for being recognized as such ie. when it comes to going to the bathroom they want to.


Recognized by who? The government? We all hate the government. It all comes back to people. Some will be cool, some will be assholes. This changes nothing. And the bathroom thing, some will have unisex, some wont. This seems like such a nonissue to me. In the end, nothing will change, and in time, no one will care.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> Please don't speak for me. A good chunk of the fun of being a girl is fitting in with other girls.


You're speaking for other people. You're saying because YOU dont care, therefore other people shouldnt. When clearly people do care. People are working hard for this. Shouldnt people be able to choose if their documented gender is their born one or transitioned one? You can keep it the same if you dont care or be able to change it. Everyone would be happy. But you're saying because it doesnt upset you, other people should have to abide by your rules.


----------



## Kallus (Oct 22, 2018)

Alright. This thread took a turn for the worst. Bunker anybody?


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Recognized by who? The government? We all hate the government. It all comes back to people. Some will be cool, some will be assholes. This changes nothing. And the bathroom thing, some will have unisex, some wont. This seems like such a nonissue to me. End the end, nothing will change, and in time, no one will care.


Let's say someone who is trans (IDs as/is female, under this new status, they'd be written up as male) goes to the bathroom for that which gender they ID as/are. 

Some asshole with a bone to pick then proceeds to make their life hell over this and eventually this goes to the point where legislation becomes involved.

What defense can someone make against this under these changes? Their status as IDing/being a female isn't written down anywhere on a legal document. Their documents all refer to them as a male, even though they ID/are a woman.

Would this person be forced to go to the male bathroom and as a result be forced into a constant reminder that they can't be who they want to be?

(Sidenote: I'm in full support of unisex bathrooms, the only thing seperating male and female bathrooms is urinoirs and those are disgusting anyway.)


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> You're speaking for other people. You're saying because YOU dont care, therefore other people shouldnt. When clearly people do care. People are working hard for this. Shouldnt people be able to choose if their documented gender is their born one or transitioned one? You can keep it the same if you dont care or be able to change it. Everyone would be happy. But you're saying because it doesnt upset you, other people should have to abide by your rules.


People will never reach agreement on this issue


----------



## Enkuler (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Couple of highlights:
> 
> 
> > ...adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender as determined “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable...
> ...


Haha! yeah, the kind of religious people who recognize science only when it pleases them!
(Note, I'm not saying all religious people do that.)



Jayro said:


> As someone who thought long and hard about transitioning, I also find this stupid.


Why did you decide otherwise finally? You're of course free not to answer, but I'd find it really annoying if the main reason was people still living in the 18th century.
Sorry if you already answered (I didn't read all the thread).


----------



## VinsCool (Oct 22, 2018)

And people wonder why so many stay hidden in closet, living in pain.


----------



## Wolfy (Oct 22, 2018)

Meh, I agree that there needs to be an inclusion of transgender as an option as they should have the same rights and they do.

I think this is more of an attack on the ideology going around that you can be any "gender" you believe is what you are, which is quickly spiraling out of control.

Like I understand, you want to label yourself for whatever reason you may have, but that could just be a subcategory of 'transgender'. It's neither of the existing ones.

When you try and make literally ALL of them into Law, that's where things can troubling and should be stopped like they're trying to do.


LOVE AND PEACE PEOPLE! No reason to riot and block traffic because you feel 'entitled'.


----------



## ihaveahax (Oct 22, 2018)

Remember to go vote on November 6, which are just about 2 weeks away. Because some people's lives literally depend on it, because of legislation like this.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> Meh, I agree that there needs to be an inclusion of transgender as an option as they should have the same rights and they do.
> 
> I think this is more of an attack on the ideology going around that you can be any "gender" you believe is what you are, which is quickly spiraling out of control.
> 
> ...


peace and love


----------



## Cubuss (Oct 22, 2018)

And people say trump isn't doing any thing good as president,


----------



## AkikoKumagara (Oct 22, 2018)

Kallus said:


> That's where you're wrong buddy. I've been friends and worked with transgender people. They do not care what it says on the papers. They understand they are not the gender they claim to be, it's just a social thing for them and they get it. The only thing they value is how they are treated by people around them. Not a dumb label.


You don't speak for transgender people. I care.


----------



## Delerious (Oct 22, 2018)

So the way I see it, there are a few arguments for and against this case. One argument for is that it makes things easier on the government and those processing paperwork to simply have to narrow it down two options. Also, when it comes to a lot on the government side, they associate your national record with your medical record and your birth certificate, so I can understand to this degree why moderates, republicans and those processing paperwork would rather have this, especially when there are gender-fluid people out there who are going to mark their paperwork differently every time.

One alternative is that sex should only be used for medical paperwork, since it is for the sole purpose of the doctor knowing how best to treat their patient, and gender identity should be used elsewhere. The one place I can see this being a problem is where the parent is filling out paperwork for their child. People insist that just because a boy is more feminine, or that a girl is more masculine, it makes them transgender, but it's a similar scenario to thinking you have a particular illness just because you have one or two symptoms of it. So no, I don't think transgender should be a usable option to represent someone under the age of 18. People say that any child or teenager should have the right to choose their gender, but the hard truth there is that the prefrontal cortex of the brain, which is responsible for rationalization between emotions, is still undergoing development, and in fact, isn't even fully developed until around age 25.

Anyway, in all honesty, I see little wrong with going on the consensus of what your are born with as far as governmental stuff goes, since it also aligns with medical records. And people have, for a while now, been disputing the definition of sex and gender. The one part that raises most issues is that they seem to be associating this with social status. I'm not sure it it's the Trump administration, or if it's just NYT doing their own special filtering, but if governmental status and social status are synonymous, then that's where things get messed up.

--

I realize this is going to get a lot of hate, since I'm a moderate/centrist, I take things for what I perceive as face value, and I try to analyze things on a case-by-case scenario. I hate taking sides, political parties, party journalists and this stupid political climate where people have to get sensitive over every god-damned issue because they can't go off the simple principle of live and let live, or they can't understand that not everything is black and white.

A wise Whiterun guard once told me, "Stormcloaks, Imperials, dragons. Ain't no matter to me what I kill. Let them come." ~ Kill indiscriminately, peeps.

--



Ev1l0rd said:


> Let's say someone who is trans (IDs as/is female, under this new status, they'd be written up as male) goes to the bathroom for that which gender they ID as/are.
> 
> Some asshole with a bone to pick then proceeds to make their life hell over this and eventually this goes to the point where legislation becomes involved.
> 
> ...



1. This issue is not so much related to the topic of this thread. To me anyway, it's more about paperwork than anything. But I do certainly agree that it's an issue that ought to be addressed, and Trump's administration isn't quite making anything better here.

2. Sadly, assholes are everywhere and give people grief for a variety of reasons. I had a friend in elementary school who was bullied because he breathed through his mouth, and some thought it was gross and annoying. Bullying isn't exclusive to a group of people, it is a plight in a lot of schools, and even in work places. The best thing you can do is report it, but even that takes some mustering of courage.

3. I don't necessarily agree with government status equaling social status, either.

4. This sounds like a case of gender dysphoria to me. We all have to accept ourselves for who we are and own up to it, but gender dysphoric people are unable to cope. In this case, they need legit psychological help. Keep in mind also that transgender and gender dysphoric are not the same. Gender dysphoric people are under anxiety because of the gender they are born with. These are the ones that often commit suicide, even after transitioning, and sadly, the current political climate only raises their anxiety. The remedy for a schizophrenic patient isn't to let him go untreated. This is the same case for a gender dysphoric individual. The only cure for something like this is help, and hopefully the understanding that they are fine the way they are, whether they choose to transition or not.

5. I support unisex restrooms as well.

--



VinsCool said:


> And people wonder why so many stay hidden in closet, living in pain.



This is usually the case for gender dysphoric people. The best they can do is seek psychological help, and hopefully accept who they are whether or not they choose to transition. The document in question seems to be more for government paperwork than anything. People need to come to the understanding that they're not under a magnifying glass by the state just because they're different. Same can't be said for society though, sadly enough. Either way, I doubt a couple of government papers are going to make the difference for how you're treated in the real world, unless they outright called for discrimination against that group of people.

Moral of the story - don't freak out over every little thing the news reports. 98% of the time it's meant for fear-mongering, same as what Fox News tries to do in the case of terrorism and "persecution" of Christians and Jewish people.


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

There's no reason to argue against the same protections under law for transgender people that everyone else receives.  You'd have to be a really insecure douchebag to believe you have to "lose" something as a heterosexual in order for the government and society at large to treat trans individuals with basic human decency.


----------



## Wolfy (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> I can get on board with that. For the sake of having an international standard, a non-malleable definition is useful.
> 
> Your life only depends on this if you never had one to begin with. (I.E. if you are an NPC)



Haha thanks, I mean I'm hoping people actually try and calm down and think about everything going on lately, since everything that keeps getting blown up is because Trump got elected so literally everyone is basically required to hate him. I don't like the guy per say, but I like his policies more than Hillary's, and yes, she should be in jail.


----------



## Song of storms (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> 1984:
> "They first started by subverting the language... For if you control the language, you control the people."
> 
> My God, he genuinely wants to overthrow the government. He wants to create a totalitarian society with him at the top.


Of course there had to be someone quoting that fucking book.


----------



## Jayro (Oct 22, 2018)

Enkuler said:


> did you decide otherwise finally? You're of course free not to answer, but I'd find it really annoying if the main reason was people still living in the 18th century.
> Sorry if you already answered (I didn't read all the thread).


My family is all Republicunts.


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> I don't like the guy per say, but I like his policies more than Hillary's, and yes, she should be in jail.


Hillary isn't running any more, 'lesser of two evils' is no longer a good excuse for supporting shitty policies.


----------



## Wolfy (Oct 22, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Hillary isn't running any more, 'lesser of two evils' is no longer a good excuse for supporting shitty policies.



Never said I was using her as an excuse, and which policies are shit per say?


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> Never said I was using her as an excuse, and which policies are shit per say?


How about the one in this very thread.


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> Never said I was using her as an excuse, and which policies are shit per say?


That list would go on for days, but most of all I don't know how anyone could support a president who bends over backward for dictators and despots regularly.  First Putin, then Kim Jong Un, and now the Saudi royal family.  As long as they praise him or have enough money on the table, the US is free for pillaging under Trump.


----------



## Wolfy (Oct 22, 2018)

Xzi said:


> That list would go on for days, but most of all I don't know how anyone could support a president who bends over backward for dictators and despots regularly.  First Putin, then Kim Jong Un, and now the Saudi royal family.  As long as they praise Trump or have enough money on the table, the US is free for pillaging.



What exactly has he been bending over backwards for Kim Jong Un other than trying to fix the relations between them and South Korea? Both of their leaders who've been at war and you think that it's a bad thing? Seriously?!


----------



## th3joker (Oct 22, 2018)

trans kids... too yong to choose bedtime. old enough to choose gender. 

it is a mental disorder.


----------



## ihaveahax (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> What exactly has he been bending over backwards for Kim Jong Un other than trying to fix the relations between them and South Korea? Both of their leaders who've been at war and you think that it's a bad thing? Seriously?!


I would think it's because he constantly praises dictators like Kim Jong Un, wishing he was one himself, while simultaneously attacking allies like Canada.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 22, 2018)

I thought this was a gaming forum.


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> What exactly has he been bending over backwards for Kim Jong Un other than trying to fix the relations between them and South Korea? Both of their leaders who've been at war and you think that it's a bad thing? Seriously?!


It's one thing to try and fix relationships between countries. It's another thing entirely to refer to the guy as someone he "loves".


----------



## chrisrlink (Oct 22, 2018)

Xzi said:


> That list would go on for days, but most of all I don't know how anyone could support a president who bends over backward for dictators and despots regularly.  First Putin, then Kim Jong Un, and now the Saudi royal family.  As long as they praise him or have enough money on the table, the US is free for pillaging under Trump.


about the saudi's didn't hey say if the assassination of the reporter was true they'll be hell to pay? anyways sooner or later if trump has his way LGBT community will be classed as low aa illegals with no protections either way if we don't push back it'll just get way worse


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Very sad indeed


----------



## Wolfy (Oct 22, 2018)

Jack54782 said:


> I thought this was a gaming forum.



Lol me too, the politics forum is a different place entirely.


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> What exactly has he been bending over backwards for Kim Jong Un other than trying to fix the relations between them and South Korea? Both of their leaders who've been at war and you think that it's a bad thing? Seriously?!


He gave up all our bargaining chips up front under the false assumption that NK would stop their nuclear program.  It hasn't been stopped or even slowed.  And despite the fact that Kim blatantly lied to his face, Trump then fell in love:



I guess it gets lonely when your wife is always several states away.  Regardless, you'd think he could find gay love with somebody slightly less hated.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> Never said I was using her as an excuse, and which policies are shit per say?


Trump and Hillary are just two different sides of the same coin. They are both power crazed lunatics trying to convince their fanbase that the other side is evil while doing whatever their donors want them to. They appeal to different groups but have the same end goal, fool people into thinking they're rational and the other side is evil. 

Trump will tell you hes for whatever will get votes, same as Hillary. He was pro transgender people before, now hes flipping to appeal to a different demographic. He and Hillary should both be jailed.


----------



## Wolfy (Oct 22, 2018)

Just curious for a second, anyone here think Trump has done anything useful for the country?


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

You really don't know how good you have it.


----------



## Wolfy (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> People who support trump, vs people who cry about his policies
> 
> You really don't know how good you have it.



*when you look at the people literally looting stores and destroying cars and property because their angry about something

The people who will literally be mobbing up on you and screaming into your face because their "right".


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Trump will tell you hes for whatever will get votes, same as Hillary.


The difference is that Dems actually follow through on stuff like healthcare, environmental protections, equality under the law and etc.  Absolutely Republicans will _tell_ you they're for all those things, but they haven't proven it with their actions once in like fifty years.  It's obvious it's just gaslighting when they say this stuff.  FFS, Trump promised universal healthcare during the campaign.  Even his supporters must've known he was full of shit right away on that one.


----------



## Song of storms (Oct 22, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> Lol me too, the politics forum is a different place entirely.


There has always been a more controversial section like this one in all forums, from small to big. It's mostly done to avoid users sperging all over the rest of the boards.

I also dare to say that the staff (so far) has done a good job with moderating this. Trust me, I come from a time before the Web 2.0 and there could have been a lot worse.


----------



## CoinKillerL (Oct 22, 2018)

This time trump is right. Just get tf with your trans shit outta here and see the reality how is it.
There are ONLY 2 genders, and that is scientifically approved. Stop saying transgender is an acutal gender. Just stop.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

CoinKillerL said:


> This time trump is right. Just get tf with your trans shit outta here and see the reality how is it.
> There are ONLY 2 genders, and that is scientifically approved. Stop saying transgender is an acutal gender. Just stop.


Transgender isnt a gender. At least know the basics of the subject before speaking on it when it affects peoples lives.


----------



## Sheimi (Oct 22, 2018)

CoinKillerL said:


> This time trump is right. Just get tf with your trans shit outta here and see the reality how is it.
> There are ONLY 2 genders, and that is scientifically approved. Stop saying transgender is an acutal gender. Just stop.


Trump isn't right at all mate. It is a ploy to gain more votes from the go happy Christians. May be Christian and trans.

Suddenly, moving to Canada isn't a bad idea.


----------



## jacksprat1990 (Oct 22, 2018)

CoinKillerL said:


> This time trump is right. Just get tf with your trans shit outta here and see the reality how is it.
> There are ONLY 2 genders, and that is scientifically approved. Stop saying transgender is an acutal gender. Just stop.



I completely agree with your argument. It's trendy bullshit and people seriously need to get a grip.


----------



## CoinKillerL (Oct 22, 2018)

Sheimi said:


> Trump isn't right at all mate. It is a ploy to gain more votes from the go happy Christians. May be Christian and trans.
> 
> Suddenly, moving to Canada isn't a bad idea.


i know, i never liked trump too much, but when he's right he's just right. Oh, and i'm atheist, so do not call me a christian, before y'all do


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Very sad!


----------



## CoinKillerL (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> You know, eventually, people are going to want a Caesar.
> 
> Politics are going to get more and more radicalized, more and more militant. It's inevitable, really, and the U.S. government is going to keep bending backwards to accommodate all the retardation while trying to keep its act together until it can't anymore. In some places in Europe, antifa is already in power, and there are videos on youtube of them beating up cops, starting fires, destroying things, and generally acting like locusts. Even now, I talk to people on the street who are pretty much fed up with antifa, because they destroy people's way of life, they destroy civilization itself.
> 
> Hate trump all you want, but he is holding back the night, and his willingness to keep all you plebians caged is literally the only thing preventing the right from busting down your doors and executing you.


i don't hate trump. it's just not my favourite but he makes some decisions i higly respect.


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

jacksprat1990 said:


> I completely agree with your argument. It's trendy bullshit and people seriously need to get a grip.


You guys are completely missing the point.  This isn't for the purposes of defining gender scientifically, the government is not a scientific institution.  It's for the purposes of granting equal protection under the law to trans individuals versus essentially declaring that they aren't human or recognized.  If you believe the latter is appropriate, your lack of empathy is at the level of a sociopath.


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> Meanwhile, other European countries (Such as Poland) are assembling literal right wing death squads.


Got a source on this? When searching this I get a bunch of WW2 shit/neonazis committing crimes and stuff that seems to be memes, which don't hold much value when it comes to this stuff.

Or am I mistaking the definition and is this a notice w/r/t how Trump is holding back the neonazis in the Republican party? Because if so, literally all other Republican presidents have probably done a better job.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Sad, sad


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> Sociopathy being a negative disorder is an invention of feel-good psychology, which is pseudoscience.


Way to completely ignore the point being made.  Substitute psychopathy or any other mental disorder that you feel is "bad enough" if sociopathy somehow isn't a negative thing in your eyes.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

i cry


----------



## LightyKD (Oct 22, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> 1984:
> "They first started by subverting the language... For if you control the language, you control the people."
> 
> My God, he genuinely wants to overthrow the government. He wants to create a totalitarian society with him at the top.




Um....yeah..... The man is infatuated with dictators.The United States is at a point where the damn thing needs to be scrapped and a new, more fair and more common sense friendly constitution and government needs to be built in its place.


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-with-polands-volunteer-militia-idUSKCN1MS1OP
> 
> Here you go.


...that article details volunteer militia in Poland to defend against Russia. Which is good. Since Russia is run by an all-but-in-name dictator who has tried to annex (parts of) other East European countries before. (The area that is known in my language as de Krim.)


----------



## Xzi (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> Psychopathy is pretty much the same thing, only in isolation from empathetic faculties. You intended to discredit the person you were speaking to by calling them a sociopath, which is an ad hominem attack that doesn't address his main points.


I did not call him or anyone else a sociopath directly, your reading comprehension is apparently pretty poor.  He and the person he quoted were discussing this in scientific terms, and this isn't about science.



seren3 said:


> And to your main point, undefining transsexuality does not remove the rights of trans people - rather, they are relegated to the same rights that everyone else has - which includes the right to prance around like a silly fairy man, calling yourself whatever you like.


Obviously it doesn't work that way or gay marriage would've been made legal at the same time as straight marriage.  You're being disingenuous and flippant.  If you don't want to participate in this discussion then nobody's forcing you to.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> And to your main point, undefining transsexuality does not remove the rights of trans people - rather, they are relegated to the same rights that everyone else has - which includes the right to prance around like a silly fairy man, calling yourself whatever you like.


Except transgender people already dont have all the same rights. In many places in the US a transgender person and their s.o. couldn't adopt a kid for example.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

You guys sure like to argue


----------



## FAST6191 (Oct 22, 2018)

I am still somewhat hazy on what is proposed, what problem it is theoretically to address and what the potential fallout is to be. The article linked by the OP spends some time discussing title 9 and how it deals with sexism -- unless we are going to go full moron and go with the "dominant group" definitions of things then you can say (or be demonstrated to be acting such that) you are doing or not doing something on the basis of sex and get pinged either way. If it sought to specifically exclude such things from consideration in such cases (excluding people for arbitrary characteristics is bad, let them compete on merit) then I could see a problem but nothing along those lines. Also as we are dealing with government documents and are nominally a technical site then while I am at it https://web.archive.org/web/20160731010249/https://qntm.org/gay .

I have previously covered my thoughts on the notion of transgenderism but might as well go again. I generally boil it down to if you are not hurting anybody else then I don't give a fuck, I find it utterly bizarre that anybody would give enough of a shit about their gender to want to change it but there are many such things I find bizarre and it does seem to be real with positive outcomes for allowing people to change. If you do want to change on official documents I would expect it to be the sort of thing a medic oversees and signs off on -- pending better medicine (itself a minefield -- what would you do if you could take a pill and then stop giving a fuck about it?) I thoroughly support the hormones, living as* for an extended period, counselling and more (surgery would be optional but certainly enhances a claim) regime. The more genders than atoms in the universe thing I find to be odd -- if you want to define some group of characteristics and give them a proper noun then so be it, the notions of gender seem useful enough without them and not enhanced by them. I should also note at this point the only people I have ever met that I would usefully describe as fluid with respect to time have been people that changed, (occasionally changed back) and then got the types of dementia that see you living in different periods in your life, now this does not preclude it from existing but I am still awaiting evidence of something else. Sadly I have not seen any claimants be tested a la the Russian blue (Russian has two words for blue, or actually two types of blue but if you strain a speaker's mind by getting them to do complex maths it goes back to the one most other languages and physics/biology recognise) or Australian Aboriginal compass (many such individuals, perhaps most, will be able to tell you the compass direction even inside a windowless building after having being taken through a series of turns, again load their minds down with maths and it goes away) and I am not entirely sure how I would construct such a test either. I would also however need to reaffirm that I am categorically opposed to mandating pronouns by law (which would extend to "government funded institutions can not enact such rules") or "hate speech" specifics here -- it might make you a horrible cunt to do such a thing but it is not and should not something you need to be put in bracelets and stuck before the beak for. If you go punch someone because "they is a t****** yo" you have merely punched someone without reason and such a thing should be able to be handled by the regular laws against not punching people, no problem with it being considering at sentencing though.

*itself an interesting conundrum as I would have thought the idea of gender roles would be tricky for such a group.

"The Trump administration has sought to bar transgender people from serving in the military"
Not sure entirely why it is here in this (other than maybe as a type of rabble rousing) but OK. If you can handle the training (which can be role specific* but I see no reason for it to be different for sexes) and the job I have no issue with transgender people playing here, to exclude them would something that needs some other major justification which I can't see happening (I can't see the trait inherently or so probabilistically rendering them unfit or unable). If we are to have such nonsense as gender specific requirements (training itself if it is merited is a different matter) then it could get a bit hazy but that seems handily solved by eliminating such requirements.
*front line combat vs administrative roles sort of thing (you don't need to be able to carry your fellow office worker a given distance). We can discuss resulting efficacy if you like as well, and there is some data there on mixed units.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Why don't we just be friends?


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> I actually do have a good justification for why trans people (and women) shouldn't serve in the military - it hurts morale.
> 
> Most soldiers have a girlfriend or a wife waiting at home. When a male infantryman serves alongside with a woman, he may be tempted to disobey orders to protect her, jeopardizing the mission. Men have a very deep-rooted instinct to protect women. Seeing women dying right alongside of men also demoralizes men.
> 
> That, and I'm sure you've read the statistics about the gap between male and female physical performance, how mtf trans athletes are breaking all the women's records and generally shitting on the accomplishments of women. Women and MtF's in the military would lessen the camaraderie and effectiveness of any squad they are assigned to. MtF's have I don't have as much issue with FtM's serving in the military, but people born female have lower bone density than men, so even they would slow down a squadron of cis men.


Everyone should have to pass the exact same physical test to get into the military. That would eliminate any issues with women being on average weaker. Past that, saying that women shouldnt be allowed to be in the military because it could affect the men is so backwards. Theres no study to show that the military is less affective by virtue of there being a woman there. Men and women should be treated exactly equally except when a biological difference is involved. And this means I also think in cases of a draft, women should have the same criteria to be drafted (although I am against drafts as a whole).


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

Love is love


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> Actually, there is!
> https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Milit...-Army-and-Navy-are-so-against-women-in-combat
> 
> 
> ...


See you ignored what I said. I said women should pass the SAME TESTS to get in as men. Your link says "women who are weaker than men do less well in the military". No shit.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> Right then, if we're not going to be intellectually honest with each other, then I'm just going to insult you with image macros.


"they are weaker, more prone to injury, less adept at shooting weapons accurately" this is all reasoning why those specific women wouldnt pass the test. Same as men who cant shoot or are weak. Then it gets a bunch of men to say that women are scary without providing any statistics on the matter. Show me where it provides data, not an opinion but data, that having equally qualified women would make the military weaker.


----------



## FAST6191 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> I actually do have a good justification for why trans people (and women) shouldn't serve in the military - it hurts morale.
> 
> Most soldiers have a girlfriend or a wife waiting at home. When a male infantryman serves alongside with a woman, he may be tempted to disobey orders to protect her, jeopardizing the mission. Men have a very deep-rooted instinct to protect women. Seeing women dying right alongside of men also demoralizes men.
> 
> That, and I'm sure you've read the statistics about the gap between male and female physical performance, how mtf trans athletes are breaking all the women's records and generally shitting on the accomplishments of women. Women and MtF's in the military would lessen the camaraderie and effectiveness of any squad they are assigned to. MtF's have I don't have as much issue with FtM's serving in the military, but people born female have lower bone density than men, so even they would slow down a squadron of cis men.


That might be a case, or part of one, for front line units, less of one for those not likely to see direct action. Similarly I don't see it necessarily being grounds to preclude people -- so biology means vast swathes of people possessing the otherwise utterly banal characteristic of female biology can't handle it (I would agree entirely on physical size, muscle mass, bone density and we could continue this to all sorts of traits desirable in your cannon fodder) and even among those exceptions they might not tend to go too much more than your average male biology grunt. Morale wise I would want to see the studies on its long term effects if the physical side of thing is taken care of -- "it may" is not justification enough, partially as I heard the same about gay people and that seems to be working out OK.


----------



## ItsKipz (Oct 22, 2018)

Oh this is gonna be 7 pages of fun isn't it.

Feel free to think whatever you want about transgender people, but saying they don't exist is just stupid.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

We should all love each other


----------



## Nerdtendo (Oct 22, 2018)

I know there's a good reason for a politic section but I wish there wasn't a politic section


----------



## Sheimi (Oct 22, 2018)

jacksprat1990 said:


> I completely agree with your argument. It's trendy bullshit and people seriously need to get a grip.


Please explain how this is "trendy"


----------



## osaka35 (Oct 22, 2018)

"screw research and depth of thought. Someone makes me uncomfortable, so I'm going to make sure the whole lot of them are defined out of reality"
-Current US Administration

I wonder why infantile comfort of familiar bigotry is a speed-way to leadership in the highest of places. The black-hole of compassion or care shown by our "leaders" certainly illustrates their lack of abilities and integrity required of their position. Terrifyingly depressing. Someone needs to tell them, slowly and with small words, there is an objective reality outside of their own heads and wallet.



seren3 said:


> I actually do have a good justification for why trans people (and women) shouldn't serve in the military - it hurts morale.
> 
> Most soldiers have a girlfriend or a wife waiting at home. When a male infantryman serves alongside with a woman, he may be tempted to disobey orders to protect her, jeopardizing the mission. Men have a very deep-rooted instinct to protect women. Seeing women dying right alongside of men also demoralizes men.
> 
> That, and I'm sure you've read the statistics about the gap between male and female physical performance, how mtf trans athletes are breaking all the women's records and generally shitting on the accomplishments of women. Women and MtF's in the military would lessen the camaraderie and effectiveness of any squad they are assigned to. MtF's have I don't have as much issue with FtM's serving in the military, but people born female have lower bone density than men, so even they would slow down a squadron of cis men.



Your personal opinions do not reflect reality. folks have a deep-rooted tendency to protect other people. Limiting it to just male to defend women is called cherry-picking.

mtf trans athletes, just like other female athletes by the way, are required to pass testosterone level test, among other things. How do you believe mtf athletes are different than other female athletes?


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

let's all circle up and sing kum-ba-ya


----------



## Viri (Oct 22, 2018)

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread! Where is that munching on popcorn gif when I need it? 



seren3 said:


> I actually do have a good justification for why trans people (and women) shouldn't serve in the military - it hurts morale.


If I recall, that's also why people get blind folded when they're about to get executed via a firing squad. The blindfold prevents the soldiers from seeing the victim's eyes as they get shot, and fucking with their moral.

Just a fun off topic fun fact.


----------



## osaka35 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> My opinion is also the opinion of the United States Marines.
> 
> The biggest difference is bone density and structure. Men have naturally more dense bones than women, however, estrogen has a property that preserves bone desnity. What this means is that MtF athletes have an unfair advantage over female ones, even with similar testosterone levels, because they retain stronger bones after they transition.
> 
> ...


The United States Marines, along with most of the rest of the military, were also against racial integration. They got over it. They don't like going against the status quo, which isn't the best argument against social necessity. If you're referring to the cherry picking you did, why do you believe they aren't capable of cherry picking? It's a pretty sexist atmosphere there, so it'd be pretty surprising if they gave it much thought at all.

Aye, professional athletes that use their bones have stronger bones, and male athletes tend to have stronger bones. Is it due to the need created by their muscles? Or some other aspect? Really the question is, how much does stronger bones impact ability to perform an athletic task? Are you suggesting the largest factor separating the #1, #2, or #3 spots of female athletes is how strong their bones are? I'm not sure how the loss of bone density later in life relates to not getting first place at the peak of your abilities.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 22, 2018)

osaka35 said:


> The United States Marines, along with most of the rest of the military, were also against racial integration. They got over it. They don't like going against the status quo, which isn't the best argument against social necessity. If you're referring to the cherry picking you did, why do you believe they aren't capable of cherry picking? It's a pretty sexist atmosphere there, so it'd be pretty surprising if they gave it much thought at all.
> 
> Aye, professional athletes that use their bones have stronger bones, and male athletes tend to have stronger bones. Is it due to the need created by their muscles? Or some other aspect? Really the question is, how much does stronger bones impact ability to perform an athletic task? Are you suggesting the largest factor separating the #1, #2, or #3 spots of female athletes is how strong their bones are? I'm not sure how the loss of bone density later in life relates to not getting first place at the peak of your abilities.


They were against integration. Now a lot of surface-to-air missiles, mortars and the like have to have very obvious instructions on how to operate them printed on placards on the backs of the guns. That was never a necessity before, but they have been forced to lower their standards, because communication between a group of diverse people is more difficult, than communication between people who are mostly similar. It lowers cohesion as a squad. Ever wonder why every military ever has required their people to wear uniforms? It's because diversity weakens people.

It's fine for you to believe whatever you like - you're not in the military. But don't tell them how to do their jobs. They understand warfare far better than you. You're speaking from the social commentary ivory tower of civilian life. 

Stronger bones allow you to break weaker ones, and also allow you to lift heavier weights without your arms breaking. You should reread what I said - estrogen preserves bone density over time, that's why it's frequently used to treat osteoperosis. When you give estrogen to a man (who already has stronger bone density) it actually works against the loss of bone density later in life - in effect, not only are they stronger than women, but they will continue to be stronger, throughout their lives. Not exactly a fair deal, and that's why you hear about so many transexual athletes breaking female records right now.


----------



## Deleted-401606 (Oct 22, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html
> 
> Couple of highlights:
> 
> ...



You must be slow.


----------



## osaka35 (Oct 22, 2018)

seren3 said:


> They were against integration. Now a lot of surface-to-air missiles, mortars and the like have to have very obvious instructions on how to operate them printed on placards on the backs of the guns. That was never a necessity before, but they have been forced to lower their standards, because communication between a group of diverse people is more difficult, than communication between people who are mostly similar. It lowers cohesion as a squad. Ever wonder why every military ever has required their people to wear uniforms? It's because diversity weakens people.
> 
> It's fine for you to believe whatever you like - you're not in the military. But don't tell them how to do their jobs. They understand warfare far better than you. You're speaking from the social commentary ivory tower of civilian life.
> 
> Stronger bones allow you to break weaker ones, and also allow you to lift heavier weights without your arms breaking. You should reread what I said - estrogen preserves bone density over time, that's why it's frequently used to treat osteoperosis. When you give estrogen to a man (who already has stronger bone density) it actually works against the loss of bone density later in life - in effect, not only are they stronger than women, but they will continue to be stronger, throughout their lives. Not exactly a fair deal, and that's why you hear about so many transexual athletes breaking female records right now.


You have the bad luck of talking with someone who's actually getting a PhD in the field that put the placard on the back of guns.

You know they do this, but the reason why they do this is something you completely made up. You jumped to a conclusion based only on the end result and your bias. This is a you problem, and you should seriously look into this.

The reason the placard is on the back of guns is because it improved the bottom line. Instruction and clear communication is required for clear and quick understanding. It is a continual process of refinement and improvement. we didn't "need" them so much as doing it would help improve the safety and well-being of everyone involved. Your assumption it has something to do with integration is something you should look into.

So you're saying those who would break those records aren't doing so because...their bones are breaking? Or would break if they pushed themselves that hard? You're not really making the connection between your argument and "they have stronger bones".


----------



## PrincessLillie (Oct 22, 2018)

Among the many reasons I want our president impeached, this is one of the primary ones. We just want to be normal people, jfc.


----------



## Viri (Oct 22, 2018)

ihaveamac said:


> Remember to go vote on November 6, which are just about 2 weeks away. Because some people's lives literally depend on it, because of legislation like this.


I do remember, and I'm voting straight R.


----------



## heyd_s (Oct 22, 2018)

fuck trans entlitlement, you don't get to have special treatment just bc u "indentify" with the opposite gender


----------



## Subtle Demise (Oct 22, 2018)

I waited to reply until after I read the article, and just as I thought, the author constantly flip flopped between the words sex and gender. Aren't they supposed to be different?  As far as I can tell DHHS just wants the legal definition of sex to be differentiated from gender.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Oh, and the people calling for impeachment and making Hitler comparisons are pretty funny. What direct power does Trump have over DHHS? People seem to think the president has more power than he does. Despite Bush Jr's attempts to have himself declared God-Emperor of the USA after 9/11, thankfully the presidency is not the supreme monarchy people make it out to be. There is still plenty of red tape and sone semblance of checks and balances.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 22, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> I waited to reply until after I read the article, and just as I thought, the author constantly flip flopped between the words sex and gender. Aren't they supposed to be different?  As far as I can tell DHHS just wants the legal definition of sex to be differentiated from gender.


Sex, Gender Identity, Gender Expression are the same thing. It all comes from the biological body and brain. For the majority of people gender identity matches sex. Only for a few people its different, but it too also comes from the mind. Anyone that says otherwise is making stuff up.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Subtle Demise said:


> I waited to reply until after I read the article, and just as I thought, the author constantly flip flopped between the words sex and gender. Aren't they supposed to be different?  As far as I can tell DHHS just wants the legal definition of sex to be differentiated from gender.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> Oh, and the people calling for impeachment and making Hitler comparisons are pretty funny. What direct power does Trump have over DHHS? People seem to think the president has more power than he does. Despite Bush Jr's attempts to have himself declared God-Emperor of the USA after 9/11, thankfully the presidency is not the supreme monarchy people make it out to be. There is still plenty of red tape and sone semblance of checks and balances.


This video from a Sex Researcher should explain it.


----------



## Sonansune (Oct 22, 2018)

there are lots issues on both sides, and innocents on both sides are always the one get hurt....
i do not believe in any religions, but this world is indeed messed up like some religious ppl said.


----------



## The Catboy (Oct 22, 2018)

kevin corms said:


> Who should define it then? People can do what they want to themselves, but they cant actually change what they are... Whats next people will identify as cats? Or maybe im tired of being a white male, maybe I can just become a black man now? I think its time we used some common sense.


It's not the government's job to define these words.
The answer is no because that's a garbage slippery slope argument made out of ignorance


----------



## Sonansune (Oct 22, 2018)

@kevin corms well... the example u given happened years ago. Rachel Dolezal lol.


----------



## FAST6191 (Oct 23, 2018)

Ericjwg said:


> there are lots issues on both sides, and innocents on both sides are always the one get hurt....
> i do not believe in any religions, but this world is indeed messed up like some religious ppl said.


What would some of those various sides and hurt parties be in this case?



Lilith Valentine said:


> It's not the government's job to define these words.


If they are going to enact things based upon concepts it is awfully useful to have definitions to work to though. Nebulous concepts defined in the moment or that are liable to shift being hard to base rule sets around.

Some time back people were having a definition of marriage discussion. Part of that hinged upon the idea that the government would get to define such a thing rather than leave it to various religious bodies and what have you. This would seem to be a functional equivalent in terms of the reasoning for needing definitions.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 23, 2018)

LightyKD said:


> Um....yeah..... The man is infatuated with dictators.The United States is at a point where the damn thing needs to be scrapped and a new, more fair and more common sense friendly constitution and government needs to be built in its place.



What exactly would that look like?


----------



## Kurt91 (Oct 23, 2018)

I always figured that "sex" on a form meant physically and biologically, while "gender" meant mentally or psychologically. It sounds as though the government just wants to make this distinction official when filling out forms, so that people don't write down their gender where the form wants their sex.

Yes, this makes a major difference on medical records, as somebody has already stated. There can be disastrous consequences if you get medicine that's meant for a person of the opposite sex. People have also claimed that while this is an important distinction medically, as far as government forms go, the distinction does not need to be there. I'm not quite certain about that.

Let's say that there was a major disaster, like a car crash or some other issue that makes it so that the patient coming in is knocked out or otherwise comatose and unable to express themselves directly. Wouldn't the first thing a medic do be to look for some sort of government ID, like a drivers license or something to identify the patient? In that case, wouldn't it be important to know right off the bat that the "sex" section is accurately filled out? I mean, otherwise the best-case scenario would be the hospital having the patient's ID already, yet still having to search other forms to make absolutely certain that the person didn't fill it in as their psychological gender, or whether the person has had sex-reassignment surgery, or something.

While I was never interested enough to learn the details about his job, my father is a funeral home director. He has to work with information from both hospitals and the government about the deceased that he works with. I don't know what the details would imply regarding his job, but that means that there is at least one certifiable instance where medical records and government records overlap, and so I would imagine that it would be best to have universally one straight answer across both types of record.


----------



## ihaveahax (Oct 23, 2018)

Viri said:


> I do remember, and I'm voting straight R.


You're free to vote for whoever you want, whichever party best represents your values.


----------



## osaka35 (Oct 23, 2018)

Sex is biological
Sexual orientation is biological
Gender is social

Social means it is a mutually defined thing, not an inherent property of reality. A property of reality would be, let's say, hair colour. Social would be whether we call it brown or brunnette. Descriptive rather than prescriptive, yes?

Social meanings change to reflect our current understanding, or a change in cultural desires. It's hard for nearly all growing up in a particular culture to accept culture or understandings are not required to stay static. Because that's neither how understanding or culture works. Most folks develop past the static mode of thinking, but it does require effort.

So, to reiterate

Sex is biological
Sexual orientation is biological
Gender is social

Sexual identity...well, it requires understanding the above first.


----------



## Sonansune (Oct 23, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> What would some of those various sides and hurt parties be in this case?


ah.... i consider 2 sides, trans and non-trans. if u going to details, then there are ALOT more than 2 parties.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osaka35 said:


> Sexual orientation is biological


so bi, pan, an all those are biological?


----------



## Viri (Oct 23, 2018)

ihaveamac said:


> You're free to vote for whoever you want, whichever party best represents your values.


I already know that. I actually did research all the candidates who are running in my state.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Ericjwg said:


> pan


Huh?


----------



## XDel (Oct 23, 2018)

Biology never acknowledged it in the first place. 
You have male, you have female, and once in a blue moon, you have someone born with a little of both. 
That said, I can walk out the door with a skirt and my cock tucked between my legs and I'd still be a man, maybe not a gentleman, but a man none the less. 
Likewise, a girl can put on the clothing that a culture has designated to males, and all she has done is change her cloths. She can of course say she feels like a man, but biologically can never fathom what that means. And besides, do all males feel the same or vice versa? When I was younger, I was more "feminine", now that I am older, been bruised a bit, and have more experience; I act more "masculine" now, though the whole time I always felt like a male, only more sensitive and emotive when I was younger (not that I still don't cry). 
Further more, assuming we could all be what ever sex we claimed to be on paper, assume we could marry and fuck what ever and who ever we wanted. Would that truly fulfill us for the rest of our days, or is there not more to life? 
Needless to say, when people have real sorrows in their life, discussions like this never arrive because what really matters in life can't be ignored. Though in times of comfort, wealth, and ease... we tend to grow soft.


----------



## LightyKD (Oct 23, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> What exactly would that look like?



That's a good question and one that even stomps me because in the history of our species, most revolutions are bloody. With the way humans are today, with how connected we are I doubt the US would be able to handle such a drastic change. At best, we should hope that people straighten the f*ck up and force some massive changes to the constitution via extreme protesting. That might be a tab bit bloody but at least it's not all out civil war.


----------



## CORE (Oct 23, 2018)

What a Ridiculous Thread Trump is just cleaning up Obamas mess and Trans people need help not encouraged to mutalate themselves that includes being bullied or called names. A Man who gotten his genitals Peeled like a bananna and turned inside out is not something anyone should celebrate same goes for a woman getting a Bionic Penis when there is genuine Men with problems and dont get help it the same for peeps that cant have children and have to go through procedures they are being shit on and for any imbecile that thinks im hateful tell the friends I know and who approve what I am saying. Enough of this nonsense we are Human Male and Female I have seen plenty of lesbians argue about transmen not lesbian because they are trans and vice versa then transmendogs. 

A Transmandog not only feels like a woman but a dog too and engages un puppy play. 

Another example is a Transwhitemale who does not just feel like a woman but a Philippino Woman. 

It is a Psychological Disorder and is not to be encouraged.  Oh im being Hateful and insensitive, your so wrong the Truth hurts and I wish anyone going through these motions no harm and hope and pray that they will eventually find Peace in who they really are stop listening and letting the Media and those dark thought's dictate to you. 

Your Worth More Than That.


----------



## Carnelian (Oct 23, 2018)

We need a Trump in Canada, so the antifas/liberals/leftists will stop their bullshit.


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

CORE said:


> What a Ridiculous Thread Trump is just cleaning up Obamas mess and Trans people need help not encouraged to mutalate themselves that includes being bullied or called names. A Man who gotten his genitals Peeled like a bananna and turned inside out is not something anyone should celebrate same goes for a woman getting a Bionic Penis when there is genuine Men with problems and dont get help it the same for peeps that cant have children and have to go through procedures they are being shit on and for any imbecile that thinks im hateful tell the friends I know and who approve what I am saying. Enough of this nonsense we are Human Male and Female I have seen plenty of lesbians argue about transmen not lesbian because they are trans and vice versa then transmendogs.
> 
> A Transmandog not only feels like a woman but a dog too and engages un puppy play.
> 
> ...


I think the best solution is to stop worrying so much about gender

men and women are pretty similar tbh - so why even put the M or F on the driver's license? 

What about occupations? Base them on merit. If you're strong enough then go ahead and be a firefighter. what does it matter if you have balls?

As for prisons, put the prisoner into the one that matches his/her genitals. 

And for people who think that they're animals, what does it matter? Let them be.


----------



## CORE (Oct 23, 2018)

I Agree but leave Kids out of it and stop shoving it in peoples face. 

Stop messing with kids calling them purple penguins non binary and other crap and creepy storytime with drag queens who look like something straight outta horror movie with horns. 

If adults want to mess around it quite up to them in theyre time. 

Everyone is guilty of having theyre moments EVERYONE.  So noone is better than anybody else.


----------



## seren3 (Oct 23, 2018)

I wish people wouldnt fight


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

CORE said:


> I Agree but leave Kids out of it and stop shoving it in peoples face.
> 
> Stop messing with kids calling them purple penguins non binary and other crap and creepy storytime with drag queens who look like something straight outta horror movie with horns.
> 
> ...


It really bothers me when they give kids sterilizing drugs

Come on man, kids do NOT know what they're doing

16 fine you're old enough to make your own decisions, but when 5 year olds are caught up in this culture war it is pretty depressing


----------



## AkikoKumagara (Oct 23, 2018)

I love all the eDoctors here who know the best way to deal with gender dysphoria. Congrats to all of you on your hard work in becoming certified eDoctors.


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

Sophie-bear said:


> I love all the eDoctors here who know the best way to deal with gender dysphoria. Congrats to all of you on your hard work in becoming certified eDoctors.


Not saying I am a doctor, but from my years so far in med school let me say this

We have no clue about any of this stuff on scientific level and these kids are essentially a giant experiment - it's like when we started pumping kids full of Ritalin - no one really knew what would happen. Hormone replacement could be pretty dangerous considering we know estrogen can lead to breast and cervical cancer.


----------



## AkikoKumagara (Oct 23, 2018)

x65943 said:


> Not saying I am a doctor, but from my years so far in med school let me say this
> 
> We have no clue about any of this stuff on scientific level and these kids are essentially a giant experiment - it's like when we started pumping kids full of Ritalin - no one really knew what would happen. Hormone replacement could be pretty dangerous considering we know estrogen can lead to breast and cervical cancer.



Most risks are outlined, acknowledged, and accepted before any treatment is even administered. Just like any other drugs, there are potential risks and side effects. Weird it's only a problem here in this specific form of treatment, though.


----------



## CORE (Oct 23, 2018)

It the same with the toilets nonsense too many will use that as an excuse and childrens innocence and mind gets permanently scarred including adults too for that matter.

Has already happened and still happening. 

There is no need for a Trans Bathroom and again im not being hateful it the Truth.


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

Sophie-bear said:


> Most risks are outlined, acknowledged, and accepted before any treatment is even administered. Just like any other drugs, there are potential risks and side effects. Weird it's only a problem here in this specific form of treatment, though.


Do you know how they know about those risks? Prior use.

For an unprecedented use - no one knows the risks.

Look up vioxx or digoxin if you want to read about drugs where the risks weren't known and a lot of people died.

EDIT: not to mention a kid can never truly give informed consent


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

CORE said:


> It the same with the toilets nonsense too many will use that as an excuse and childrens innocence and mind gets permanently scarred including adults too for that matter.
> 
> Has already happened and still happening.
> 
> There is no need for a Trans Bathroom and again im not being hateful it the Truth.


Best solution is single use bathrooms.


----------



## CORE (Oct 23, 2018)

Autism.  ADHD.  = Suicide messing with chemicals in the brain can not so easily be fixed.  EXPERIENCE Makes You Doctor Not Theory.  Go through it yourself and then you reevaluate that PHD.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I have to disagree with that Women have a unique and at times painful time of the month which is very personal and private. 

Something most Men Trans or not will not understand anything about.


----------



## aykay55 (Oct 23, 2018)

This will never pass Congress. These are one of those core American values that will never change unless you put everyone at gunpoint and even then not everyone would vote yes. If it impossibly passes Congress the Supreme Court will take it out anyway. We've come too far to return to homophobia. I'm not too afraid about this. By the way, anyone know the laws on LGBT in Russia?


----------



## lexluth0r (Oct 23, 2018)

Good it’s a serious mental condition that needs to be addressed


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 23, 2018)

CORE said:


> Autism.  ADHD.  = Suicide messing with chemicals in the brain can not so easily be fixed.  EXPERIENCE Makes You Doctor Not Theory.  Go through it yourself and then you reevaluate that PHD.
> Something most Men Trans or not will not understand anything about.


I can go over everything that goes against your statement right here.
ADHD is a spectrum there is multiple issues at play and often not just one. And for some people medication works correctly for them. In others it doesn't. Problem? It's pretty much near impossible at the current moment to figure out what medication works besides asking the symptoms and what actions are done. Which is semi inaccurate, but closet thing possible. And it's not like you can do a brain scan and figure it out because your going to get jack squat. In my case it didn't work for me. But! I know a friend who  takes medication and that helped them.
In other words.
There is a lot of different factors. Oh and I must ask this.
Do you sir have a PHD?
If someone has a real PHD, I'm pretty damn sure they know what they are saying.
I must also point out you shouldn't rely on medication, it's intended to help in a supplementary way. Just taking a pill isn't going to help.


----------



## AkikoKumagara (Oct 23, 2018)

Feigning concern as a basis for an opinion would be viable if HRT were at all a new thing. It's really not. The risks are recorded at this point. Most places have regulation or law that do not allow for "children" to be given this kind of treatment until they are deemed both mentally and physically fit to handle it. The only things children (that is prepubescent younglings) may be given in almost every case is puberty blockers, which basically just put off what most transgender people would deem adverse and irreversible effects of puberty.
If you're concerned about the risk of the treatment, maybe there should be some concern about the lack thereof as well, which is far more deadly based on research and numbers.


----------



## CORE (Oct 23, 2018)

No I have a Brain and Experience I will leave it at that But some advice Weed wont help it will make the situation worse gradually.

Neither will your Energy Drinks RedBull.  Monster etc. 

I literally mean BRAIN and EXPERIENCE.


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

Sophie-bear said:


> Feigning concern as a basis for an opinion would be viable if HRT were at all a new thing. It's really not. The risks are recorded at this point. Most places have regulation or law that do not allow for "children" to be given this kind of treatment until they are deemed both mentally and physically fit to handle it. The only things children (that is prepubescent younglings) may be given in almost every case is puberty blockers, which basically just put off what most transgender people would deem adverse and irreversible effects of puberty.
> If you're concerned about the risk of the treatment, maybe there should be some concern about the lack thereof as well, which is far more deadly based on research and numbers.


Hormone replacement in its current use IS unprecedented. We do not have adequate data on its use in kids and that includes just T blockers.

Look if you have studies to show me by all means - but they don't exist. It's simply unprecedented.

And I would not say T blockers are light treatment. 

Again treatment for those of adequate age and understanding is something I can agree with. But I think treating children with these drugs is bad science - principally because it interferes with a physicians first duty - primum non nocere.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

lexluth0r said:


> Good it’s a serious mental condition that needs to be addressed


Yes and the way that's been proven to affectively address it is transitioning, not telling people to ignore it or that they're just pretending


----------



## CORE (Oct 23, 2018)

@bi388 
Until they Regret and want to go back Prevention is better than Mistake.
It is not a Box of Lego it is a Human Being.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 23, 2018)

seren3 said:


> They were against integration. Now a lot of surface-to-air missiles, mortars and the like have to have very obvious instructions on how to operate them printed on placards on the backs of the guns. That was never a necessity before, but they have been forced to lower their standards, because communication between a group of diverse people is more difficult, than communication between people who are mostly similar. It lowers cohesion as a squad. Ever wonder why every military ever has required their people to wear uniforms? It's because diversity weakens people.


Shaving heads, wearing similar uniforms, degrading them in training, it's all to destroy individuality and make them all part of cogs to a whole machine. One broken cog takes down the whole war machine. The more they care about themselves and their own individuality, the less they are willing to sacrifice themselves and the less efficient they are in war to protect the country. It's all anti diversity, the opposite of SJW's ideology and the opposite of male individual power.

The arguments point you made are pretty much what I've said myself before. It's just something Women can't compete in. There's a reason new born girls among the poor are killed in China under the one child policy. Because women consume more then they produce. The poor farming family wont survive with only a female. The poor favors males and kill first born girls to survive.

It's the same reason men got paid more then women in the past under a physical labor based economy. A males prime earning years in the past was in his 20's and 30's. And as men grew older and weaker their pay went down. Much different than today's knowledge based economy where a males prime earning years in their 50's because knowledge is cumulative. And for the first time women can actually compete with men. It's just that women priorities are different so they get less pay by choice by working less hours and choose lower pay jobs. But in physical strength there is no contest. Men out compete women.


----------



## CMDreamer (Oct 23, 2018)

Under trumpet's administration, many things can be defined out of existence actually. Examples:

-Good manners.
-Civil rights.
-Foreign Education (knowing how to behave outside of your own country).
-Respect.
-Intelligence (you know what I mean).
-Women respect. (Sorry first lady)

May I continue?

Oh BTW, on topic.
What about those human beings that were born with both sexual genitals? Or how about those human beings that have two diferent DNA profiles? (Mosaicism or Chimerism).

Without any doubt, this administration is a reflection of stupidity, ignorance, egocentrism, lack of respect, and lack of many, many other virtues, that defined USA as a great nation.

A clown is on the crown.


----------



## Haloman800 (Oct 23, 2018)

What happened to the Democrats/left being the party of science? Biologically, there are two genders, male and female.

>inb4 intersex

There are extremely small deviations from the 'norm, but in the same way that we say "humans have 5 digits per hand", even though there are people with 6 fingers, there are only two genders. Deal with it.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

CORE said:


> @bi388
> Until they Regret and want to go back Prevention is better than Mistake.
> It is not a Box of Lego it is a Human Being.


What percentage of people take transition drugs/surgery and end up regretting it? I know it happens but how common is it really, any reliable studies? And even if people regret it, I believe in peoples right to make decisions they may regret. The gov shouldnt stop you.


----------



## TheArcuzHunter (Oct 23, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html
> 
> Couple of highlights:
> 
> ...


I don't know how say this more clearly (if that's how you say it, sorry, bilingual and english isn't my main), but even if it makes you happy,it doesnt mean its right, even if you want people to accept the way you want to be, you can't, because it isn't right in God's Sight. I know what you might think. "Religious crap, get it out of here!", "God is dead", "God doesn't exist!", "God is a lie/myth we keep telling ourselves to feel safe/comfortable", But I believe in God, and everyone can tell their opinion and this can go on forever. God created Adam and Eve, not Adamella and Evoy, it's in the Bible. "That's funny, to base yourself off of the Bible!", "I bet you have sinned!" yes, we all have sinned and we all will , every single person because we aren't perfect and we will never be "On Earth" but we can try to be like Jesus, and that fact doesn't give us the right to keep sinning or to do it in the first place "Because God will forgive me anytime I want". We can all repent. We can all change. Don't pretend someone you aren't. You were born the way you were born, period. If you identify as something or someone you weren't born as, you are defying God, so cease it, repent. If you stop it, you will be forgiven. Even I have thought that God doesn't exist (lots of times), but at the end I come back to him. If you have questions of this matter, talk to me or to an LDS (not LSD) member, and don't explain anything to them, just ask "Can I talk to the Bishop or the Missionaries please" and they will guide you to them, and they will give you tips/guidance/ and the help you need (don't tell your sins to the Missionaries, just to the Bishop, he will know what to do and help you out).
If you feel the guilt/shame deep inside you, do as I recommend you to do. Me? I'm just another LDS member. I'm doing my duty. I try my best.
You don't feel guilt/shame at all? I'll pray for you to understand this message so that it can reach your mind and soul, to be straightened in the path of God.as I said, I'm not perfect. I'm not superior _*TO ANY OF YOU!*_ I'm just someone who is trying to do some good in his life,and to all of you triggered transgenders, I didn't mean to. I'm trying to help you out, that's all. Goodnight!
Edit: yes, I feel bad for saying that, but it's the truth, and the truth hurts.
YOUR BODY IS A TEMPLE, THEREFORE YOU SHALL NOT PUT IMPURITIES IN IT, NEITHER REMOVE ANYTHING FROM IT (Perforations, tattoos, man earrings,etc those are all against God too).


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

Haloman800 said:


> What happened to the Democrats/left being the party of science? Biologically, there are two genders, male and female.
> 
> >inb4 intersex
> 
> There are extremely small deviations from the 'norm, but in the same way that we say "humans have 5 digits per hand", even though there are people with 6 fingers, there are only two genders. Deal with it.


They distinguish between sex and gender

Sex = penis or vagina
Gender = (here is where it gets hairy)

Some people think gender is a social construct, others think it is the way your brain is innately set up to think

Personally there is inadequate evidence to support either idea - so it's hard to say if gender really is a hardcoded phenomenon or simply social conditioning. People will bring up brain scans, but those studies had small sample sizes and found female presenting afab individuals with "masculine appearing brains".

I think if we just let people act how they want and not police.anyone's personal life - we would be in good shape.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 23, 2018)

x65943 said:


> They distinguish between sex and gender
> 
> Sex = penis or vagina
> Gender = (here is where it gets hairy)
> ...


Actually not true. Gender is not a social construct. There is plenty of evidence for this. Watch the video in my post #144 on page 8.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

Haloman800 said:


> What happened to the Democrats/left being the party of science? Biologically, there are two genders, male and female.
> 
> >inb4 intersex
> 
> There are extremely small deviations from the 'norm, but in the same way that we say "humans have 5 digits per hand", even though there are people with 6 fingers, there are only two genders. Deal with it.


Numerous studies support the existence of transgender people 
https://bigthink.com/mike-colagross...ign-with-rather-than-what-they-were-born-with


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Actually not true. Gender is not a social construct. There is plenty of evidence for this. Watch the video in my post #144 on page 8.


Watched your video, she had one piece of data - in the entire video

1. Grey/white matter and another morphological difference

Here is the issue - these are just gross anatomical differences with absolutely no understanding of how that might affect functionality. Hardly proving gender is not a social construct.


----------



## Sheimi (Oct 23, 2018)

lexluth0r said:


> Good it’s a serious mental condition that needs to be addressed


explain how it is a serious mental condition by using non bigoted sources. enlighten me. because i am very interested to be proven wrong about me being trans


----------



## SG854 (Oct 23, 2018)

x65943 said:


> Watched your video, she had one piece of data - in the entire video
> 
> 1. Grey/white matter and another morphological difference
> 
> Here is the issue - these are just gross anatomical differences with absolutely no understanding of how that might affect functionality. Hardly proving gender is not a social construct.


Its not just that one piece. There is lots of other evidence that its not a social construct in addition to that. I've also read much of the research myself and come to that same conclusion. Why not train trans people to stop being trans? Pray the trans away. I mean after all, its all a construct.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 23, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Actually not true. *Gender is not a social construct.* There is plenty of evidence for this. Watch the video in my post #144 on page 8.




_The idea_ of "sex" and "gender" being different, distinguishable things most certainly is a social construct, which effectively never existed in Western culture until the 1970's, and then only among radical feminists. Whether you believe in this thought process or not, you could discuss this with anyone from before 1970 and they would think you're fucking nuts. After 1970 until about 10 years ago, only 90% of the people you spoke to would think you're fucking nuts.

Please read about "Sexologist" John Money and how he invented the modern usage of the word "gender." Until mid-70's sociologists looking for a way to justify more courses in their department latched onto Money's theory, humans with a penis were males, and humans with vaginas were female, PERIOD. Next, read about how Dr. Money totally fucked up David Reimer in childhood with a sex reassignment attempt in infancy, took photos of Reimer and his twin brother in nude, simulated sex acts as small children, etc., and how Reimer eventually committed suicide because of his life being ruined by the guy who came up with this mess of thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money



> Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories. However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences and documents written by the World Health Organization (WHO).




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer



> Reimer said that Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks". Reimer said that Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Reimer said that Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On at "least one occasion", Reimer said that Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity".


----------



## Sheimi (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> What percentage of people take transition drugs/surgery and end up regretting it? I know it happens but how common is it really, any reliable studies? And even if people regret it, I believe in peoples right to make decisions they may regret. The gov shouldnt stop you.


2.2% regret it.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 23, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> This idea of "sex" and "gender" being different, distinguishable things most certainly is a social construct, which effectively never existed in Western culture until the 1970's, and then only among radical feminists. Whether you believe in this thought process or not, you could discuss this with anyone from before 1970 and they would think you're fucking nuts. After 1970 until about 10 years ago, only 90% of the people you spoke to would think you're fucking nuts.
> 
> Please read about "Sexologist" John Money and how he invented the modern usage of the word "gender." Until mid-70's sociologists looking for a way to justify more courses in their department latched onto Money's theory, humans with a penis were males, and humans with vaginas were female, PERIOD. Next, read about how Dr. Money totally fucked up John Reimer in childhood with a sex reassignment attempt in infancy, took photos of Reimer and his twin brother in nude, simulated sex acts as small children, etc., and how Reimer eventually committed suicide because of his life being ruined by the guy who came up with this mess of thought.
> 
> ...


So what your saying is people believed sex and gender were the same thing, until recently when feminist came out with pseudo science to try to justify their ideology. This I knew. But it contradicts with transgenderism, which is what happens when your beliefs are grounded in ideology rather than factual reality. A cognitive dissonance forms.

Women lactate and carry babies in the womb. And women's brains would be structured through evolution to help achieve these tasks of raising children and breast feeding. It would be ridiculous to think male and female brains are the same. And that gender is a construct.


----------



## osaka35 (Oct 23, 2018)

I'm so sorry our public school system failed ya'll.

Let me just say, discovery of something before unknown or ill-defined, does not negate its reality. If you want to go on "history" as a means to establish such things, Native Americans have traditionally a third gender, called "two-spirit" (_Berdache _being an older term, but I hear this is not a pleasant term). Point is, this isn't some new development in humanity. It is newly defined and explored, but not a new development. We're just finally realizing what's going on. Which can be confusing if you don't know much about the situation. It's important to learn about it, rather than instantly dismiss it as silly. Try and understand why someone would feel this makes sense, try and read their logic and their perspective. Then argue about it lol.



seren3 said:


> Okay, so you're a college student. Great. I'm a small business owner, so you know, I actually have a job, and make money. You can get a PhD in Gender Studies too, that doesn't mean you contribute to society.
> 
> I have looked into it. First off, most of my family is in the military - my dad is a Major in the Army, and my brother is in the Marines. I talk to them about this kind of stuff a lot.
> 
> You know, I spent a good amount of time writing up a refutation to your argument, and I know I'm correct, believe me, nothing makes me more depressed than knowing that I'm pretty much always correct, but I just don't feel like it's safe for me to continue posting with what I want to say. You're a moderator and you use feminist words. I have very little doubt in my mind that your reluctance to be intellectually honest is directly related to your desire to demerit me for something over your personal politics - and I won't give you that satisfaction.


I'm sorry you feel that way. Not sure at what point I was ever intellectually dishonest. Please point it out to me if you can cite anything in particular. And what you call "feminist words" I call "normal words used by ethical people".

You attack my education as if it's a negative in an argument about biology, psychology, and instructional design, but use 2nd and 3rd hand experiences as better-than-science proof? It's probably best to re-evaluate how you arrive at being correct.

And while I appreciate your concern, I would never use my position to silence or negatively influence your status. I cannot defend the disenfranchised and then abuse my power when someone disagrees with me. Goes against everything I stand for, not to mention the spirit of this forum. No, you can insult me all you like and I will refuse to do anything beyond point out the flaws in your logic. Another admin might step in if you get personal, but I would be against it even then.  Conflict of interest for me to decide on such things.



SG854 said:


> So what your saying is people believed sex and gender were the same thing, until recently when feminist came out with pseudo science to try to justify their ideology. This I knew. But it contradicts with transgenderism, which is what happens when your beliefs are grounded in ideology rather than factual reality. A cognitive dissonance forms.
> 
> Women lactate and carry babies in the womb. And women's brains would be structured through evolution to help achieve these tasks of raising children and breast feeding. It would be ridiculous to think male and female brains are the same. And that gender is a construct.



"it should be" is not the same thing as "it is". Just because it makes sense to you doesn't mean that's how the world actually works. A foundational aspect of science. All our research shows that males and females don't get different brains. They get the same brain. Hormones, and many other variables, are what contribute to the differences between people. It's easier to think of variations more as 99% variation between individuals, and 1% between sexes. Or, put simply, pretty much all differences can be attribute to individual and environmental differences, rather than those based on sex. Generally, women are taught to prioritize and learn different things than men, and this easily accounts for the perceived "natural" differences mentally and cognitively.Even physically, you have more tendencies, and "on average", than you do certainties.

Even if this wasn't the case, there still wouldn't be the strong distinction you believe exist. Biology is a lot lot more fuzzy in how it does things than most people give it credit for. Nature is quite happy with a "good enough" approach.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

seren3 said:


> I have looked into it. First off, most of my family is in the military - my dad is a Major in the Army, and my brother is in the Marines. I talk to them about this kind of stuff a lot.
> 
> I know I'm correct, believe me, nothing makes me more depressed than knowing that I'm pretty much always correct


Great so I guess your family then has actual statistics and studies proving your argument then? Because otherwise its just conjecture and fear mongering. As for that last part, how narcissistic and delusional can you be, you basically said youre always right and no one else recognizes your true genius.


----------



## DBlaze (Oct 23, 2018)

x65943 said:


> I think if we just let people act how they want and not police.anyone's personal life - we would be in good shape.


I really doubt it, people are fucked up.


----------



## Freezerbomb (Oct 23, 2018)

The age on my birth certificate says I'm 30, but I identify as 8. Why is it legal for schools discriminate against me when I try to enroll in 2nd grade?  Why can't my government issued ID have the age I identify with?

The scale says my weight is 350 pounds, but I identify as 120 pounds. Why is it legal for the roller coaster operator to discriminate against me? Why can't my government issued ID have the weight I identify with?

The photo on my Drivers's license shows a white dude, but I identify as a furry. Why is it legal for the MVD to discriminate against taking a photo in my fursuit? Why can't my government issued ID have the photo I identify with?

The bank says my credit score is bad, but I identify as having good credit. Why is it legal for the bank to refuse me a credit card?  Why can't my credit reports have the score I identify with?

Is there something wrong with my argument? Or is it sound? Is this different than the gender debate? I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## FAST6191 (Oct 23, 2018)

Freezerbomb said:


> The age on my birth certificate says I'm 30, but I identify as 8. Why is it legal for schools discriminate against me when I try to enroll in 2nd grade?  Why can't my government issued ID have the age I identify with?
> 
> The scale says my weight is 350 pounds, but I identify as 120 pounds. Why is it legal for the roller coaster operator to discriminate against me? Why can't my government issued ID have the weight I identify with?
> 
> ...



Yes there is.

Generally a belief is a statement of your mind, a statement on reality, much less one that really could have an impact on another, is a very different matter.

I might think your wife looks like a troll, and a bad one at that, but as beauty is a statement of your mind and I don't live there it is a different matter. I do however live in the universe and a statement on reality there is something that could affect me or someone that did not agree to be part of the game you might be playing at the time.

School wise it gets a bit interesting (short version they reckon they only have so much obligation, after that on your head be it), weight wise should be obvious, your driving licence would act as a form of ID so I guess you could do it from the waist down or possibly get it classified as a religion (see King Arthur in the UK), your credit score is a measure of your financial abilities (or gullibility as the case may be) and it is used to measure risk for a loan.

If we take gender as the product of your own head (I would generally operate under sex = your biology, which may change in the future when genetics gets better but not quite yet, gender = what your head says, for myself I would also allow the option for people to nominally change the former, a serious thing to do and again would take a medic, but that is a slightly different discussion) then it falls under that paradigm.


As for giving hormones to kids it is a very hard one from where I sit, and the sort of thing we have medical ethics be something as involved as it is for. On the one hand it is a very hard decision and while someone might tell "I always knew" everything I know of developmental psychology says hold on now, to say nothing of the far from non zero "failure" rate in the living as part of the traditional hormones+living as+counselling model, and as also mentioned it is somewhat uncharted territory as far as resulting chemical effects* and even the cost of it all (not a cheap hobby). On the other then the resulting efficacy of treatment can be theoretically increased, to say nothing of potentially subjecting people unnecessarily to years, formative years at that, of unpleasantness.

*as ever the choice places to start to look are injury, aberrations and maladies. I am sure there are some kids out there in the world with excised sex organs, unintentional treatments, certain conditions that are relevant here and more besides. Tell me something about those.


----------



## barronwaffles (Oct 23, 2018)

osaka35 said:


> All our research shows that males and females don't get different brains. They get the same brain. Hormones, and many other variables, are what contribute to the differences between people



I'm sorry, but what? There's plenty of papers covering the differences observed on average between the sexes in regards to both the structure and processing pathways - to wave that away as simply being a result of 'hormones and other variables' when those variables are often intrinsically related to sex is absurd.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 23, 2018)

SG854 said:


> So what your saying is people believed sex and gender were the same thing, until recently when feminist came out with pseudo science to try to justify their ideology. This I knew. But it contradicts with transgenderism, which is what happens when your beliefs are grounded in ideology rather than factual reality. A cognitive dissonance forms.
> 
> Women lactate and carry babies in the womb. And women's brains would be structured through evolution to help achieve these tasks of raising children and breast feeding. It would be ridiculous to think male and female brains are the same. And that gender is a construct.




Ok you and I may not be far apart, and I think I misunderstood your meaning in your earlier post. If you read the quote above from Wikipedia about John Money (or just go read the whole article, or find other sources about him, etc) it says before he came along the word "gender" was rarely used except for reference to "grammatical categories." Like when you take Spanish and learn how certain words (and the particles to go with them) are male or female. There was no distinctive meaning to "gender" that could be distinguished from the male and female sexes, and there certainly was no concept that a person could be of one sex, but another gender. 

This is all just something one very pervy freaky Mad Scientist came up with in his head. But, a lot of people have obviously latched on to it, and I'm more or less libertarian, so have at it. Free country and all that. I don't want the government defining this stuff - there shouldn't even be a "HHS" regulatory agency in the first place. But the root of the problem here (what this thread is about) is that Title IX should never have been interpreted to apply to transgenderism (Thanks Obama). The statute says "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance." It applies only to discrimination due to one's biological sex.

I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, this is just the history of this belief/theory - one man came up with it about 65 years ago, and it caught like a religious wildfire. And people defend it as fervently as religion, too.


----------



## NeoSlyde (Oct 23, 2018)

Great !


----------



## shadoom (Oct 23, 2018)

*Points at butterfly*
Is this a gaming related thread?


----------



## Localhorst86 (Oct 23, 2018)

shadoom said:


> *Points at butterfly*
> Is this a gaming related thread?


it's in the "World New, Current Events & Politics" section. Doesn't need to be gaming related.


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Its not just that one piece. There is lots of other evidence that its not a social construct in addition to that. I've also read much of the research myself and come to that same conclusion. Why not train trans people to stop being trans? Pray the trans away. I mean after all, its all a construct.


Saying there is evidence does not make it exist. I have read into this way too much - like WAY TOO MUCH.

And just because something is a social construct, that doesn't mean it's easy to change. Consider that the career criminal and president were born essentially the same. But can you simply pray the crime away or make someone a functioning member of society just because his actions are learned? Of course not. Social conditioning is very strong and perhaps permanent in many cases. Just because something is learned behavior that doesn't make it possible to change. Think of wife beaters or pedophiles.


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> I don't know how say this more clearly (if that's how you say it, sorry, bilingual and english isn't my main), but even if it makes you happy,it doesnt mean its right, even if you want people to accept the way you want to be, you can't, because it isn't right in God's Sight. I know what you might think. "Religious crap, get it out of here!", "God is dead", "God doesn't exist!", "God is a lie/myth we keep telling ourselves to feel safe/comfortable", But I believe in God, and everyone can tell their opinion and this can go on forever. God created Adam and Eve, not Adamella and Evoy, it's in the Bible. "That's funny, to base yourself off of the Bible!", "I bet you have sinned!" yes, we all have sinned and we all will , every single person because we aren't perfect and we will never be "On Earth" but we can try to be like Jesus, and that fact doesn't give us the right to keep sinning or to do it in the first place "Because God will forgive me anytime I want". We can all repent. We can all change. Don't pretend someone you aren't. You were born the way you were born, period. If you identify as something or someone you weren't born as, you are defying God, so cease it, repent. If you stop it, you will be forgiven. Even I have thought that God doesn't exist (lots of times), but at the end I come back to him. If you have questions of this matter, talk to me or to an LDS (not LSD) member, and don't explain anything to them, just ask "Can I talk to the Bishop or the Missionaries please" and they will guide you to them, and they will give you tips/guidance/ and the help you need (don't tell your sins to the Missionaries, just to the Bishop, he will know what to do and help you out).
> If you feel the guilt/shame deep inside you, do as I recommend you to do. Me? I'm just another LDS member. I'm doing my duty. I try my best.
> You don't feel guilt/shame at all? I'll pray for you to understand this message so that it can reach your mind and soul, to be straightened in the path of God.as I said, I'm not perfect. I'm not superior _*TO ANY OF YOU!*_ I'm just someone who is trying to do some good in his life,and to all of you triggered transgenders, I didn't mean to. I'm trying to help you out, that's all. Goodnight!
> Edit: yes, I feel bad for saying that, but it's the truth, and the truth hurts.
> YOUR BODY IS A TEMPLE, THEREFORE YOU SHALL NOT PUT IMPURITIES IN IT, NEITHER REMOVE ANYTHING FROM IT (Perforations, tattoos, man earrings,etc those are all against God too).


Let's say these people defy god. Why should that of all things be _your_ problem. If they defy the big man in the loincloth up above that supposedly watches over us, then they will get their punishment when it comes. In short: if someone goes against "god", why should that concern you. Instead, be smug and satisfied because you can go to heaven and everyone who in your eyes goes against God goes to hell.

No reason to make their lives on earth hell if they're going to hell anyway.

Honestly, I don't get why people that are religious feel so obliged to push this shit onto people. If you defy god, you'd get punished for it when you die right? So be happy, be smug, be self-satisfied, because the people that "sin" in your eyes will get their just judgement eventually. No need to be the judge yourself. Or might it actually be that you consider your god a fraud and need to take this sense of justice in your own hands to make those words carry any meaning?

(Note: I'm not religious, I just don't get this entire mindset of "I'm religious and gay/bi/trans people are against this religion so I should make their lives hell".)


----------



## osaka35 (Oct 23, 2018)

barronwaffles said:


> I'm sorry, but what? There's plenty of papers covering the differences observed on average between the sexes in regards to both the structure and processing pathways - to wave that away as simply being a result of 'hormones and other variables' when those variables are often intrinsically related to sex is absurd.


It's the "on average" bit you should focus on.

The problem is nature vs nurture. You don't just get a brain from genetics and then nothing changes. Your environment plays an intense role in brain development and the like, and it's hard to separate cultural and environmental input from biological input. When you measure different structure and processing, you're examining the end result of the process and trying to guess at what brought you there. Most folk like to assume it proves males and females are just completely different. But when you read the literature, you tend to see "more likely" when talking about sexes and the like. Meaning, the bell curve is in a different place. It's not saying they're categorically different. The overlap of the bell curves are probably closer to 98 or so percent in regards to cognitive abilities. Which from my perspective, isn't much to base anything on, really. The differences folks see probably just comes down to environment and social pressures to develop along certain paths. Social psychology is a much stronger force than folks give it credit.

And even if there were huge differences, everyone should be allowed to do things to the best of their ability. The difference between the mean average and the potential of any particular individual throws people for a loop.


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 23, 2018)

Trump is doing nothing wrong. He's reverting to the fact-based definition and not the emotion one. Look, I don't care if your wear a fucking tutu while being a bodybuilder. I don't care if you look in the mirror and see some weird cat creature, go ahead, do that, be whatever the hell you want! It's a free god damn country! Do what you want with yourself! If you want to be something different, if you want to feel like something different, it doesn't matter! You go do it, man! Power to you!

But please, don't expect others to go along with it, after all, this is a free god damn country.



--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osaka35 said:


> You don't just get a brain from genetics and then nothing changes


Genetics play a massive role in it, though. People think that intelligence is something anyone can get if they just work hard, but that isn't it. You gotta get really lucky to be smart, that's about it. Of course you can still be really successful compared to someone smarter than you if you work hard, but they'll still be smarter than you. Kinda how the smartest guy on Earth right now is just a bartender and hasn't done anything with his life. Same applies to gender. You're born male or female, and then you might get put into a different gender role if you're brought up differently.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> Trump is doing nothing wrong. He's reverting to the fact-based definition and not the emotion one.



I would say reverting to the legislatively intended definition from when Title IX was made law, rather than the policy of the previous administration which had the effect of new law without the Congress ever voting on it.


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 23, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> I would say reverting to the legislatively intended definition from when Title IX was made law, rather than the policy of the previous administration which had the effect of new law without the Congress ever voting on it.


I don't know what you're trying to say, but Title IX protects people from discrimination based on things that you are that you cannot change. People argue that "oh, but I feel like an otherkin, I feel like a man or a woman, yada yada yada" but that's it, you feel like it, it doesn't mean you are. Making laws based on feelings is a really stupid way to make laws. You are either a man or a woman, you cannot change that, but your gender role is something you CAN change, with enough CBT and such, if you really wanted to. This is not something you are born with, it's something that was "nutured" into you, and you can thank your parents if you're a guy and feel like you want to be a girl. They fucked up their parenting and is causing you that trauma.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say, but Title IX protects people from discrimination based on things that you are that you cannot change.



I'm saying Title IX was passed into law in 1972, and the Congress' intent when it passed was to prohibit discrimination based on "sex" ... that's all it says. Male/female biological sex designation, not a person's choice to emulate a gender role that differs from their sex. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just there is a specific reason for this action and that is to reaffirm the application of Title IX to only the circumstances that were intended when it was made law. If Congress wants to pass a new Title to the Civil Rights Act to cover transgenders, it can do that. But the Executive Branch doesn't get to just declare that (even though under Obama, it did).

Oh and I watched the video you just linked -- good stuff.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say, but Title IX protects people from discrimination based on things that you are that you cannot change. People argue that "oh, but I feel like an otherkin, I feel like a man or a woman, yada yada yada" but that's it, you feel like it, it doesn't mean you are.


Heres the difference. Theres real documented evidence showing that transgender people have biological similarities in their brain to the gender they identify as rather than the one they were born as, implying they are literally the other gender mentally stuck in the wrong body. There is 0 evidence to suggest otherkin are wolves/dragons brains stuck in a human body.


----------



## TheArcuzHunter (Oct 23, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Let's say these people defy god. Why should that of all things be _your_ problem. If they defy the big man in the loincloth up above that supposedly watches over us, then they will get their punishment when it comes. In short: if someone goes against "god", why should that concern you. Instead, be smug and satisfied because you can go to heaven and everyone who in your eyes goes against God goes to hell.
> 
> No reason to make their lives on earth hell if they're going to hell anyway.
> 
> ...


Just telling you gay/bi/lesbi/trans/etc etc, you could change. Even if your life is hell right now, you can change, and it will all be better. Be happy with who you are, and if you aren't, don't stop trying, fight against the thought of being someone you want to be (for example female if you're male) that you really aren't, and if you do, you will be forgiven!


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> Just telling you gay/bi/lesbi/trans/etc etc, you could change. Even if your life is hell right now, you can change, and it will all be better. Be happy with who you are, and if you aren't, don't stop trying, fight against the thought of being someone you want to be (for example female if you're male) that you really aren't, and if you do, you will be forgiven!


Scientific research disagrees with you. Being gay or trans or whatever is not wrong. Its not a 'sin' because sins dont exist. It isnt immoral because it doesnt hurt other people. Theres nothing to forgive, stop trying to tell other people what they should or shouldnt do when it doesnt hurt you or anyone else. A trans woman IS a woman, not a man. They arent 'trying' to be a woman.


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> implying they are literally the other gender mentally stuck in the wrong body.


Shouldn't that be classified as a brain defect? If your brain developed in a way that does not match your body, something fucked up in your development. Heck, we should find a treatment for it that doesn't end up in suicide, because I feel bad for them.


----------



## TheArcuzHunter (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Scientific research disagrees with you. Being gay or trans or whatever is not wrong. Its not a 'sin' because sins dont exist. It isnt immoral because it doesnt hurt other people. Theres nothing to forgive, stop trying to tell other people what they should or shouldnt do when it doesnt hurt you or anyone else. A trans woman IS a woman, not a man. They arent 'trying' to be a woman.


Hey, stop that. I'm just doing my duty. God exists, and if you think otherwise, I'll pray for you to think otherwise. God gave us "Free Agency" so that we can be tested on Earth, the Devil rules earth, but in the end, God will make "the second coming" happen, and judge all of us. We all still have time to Change. Make fun of me, don't care. I'm just trying to help out you people. It's my duty.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> Shouldn't that be classified as a brain defect? If your brain developed in a way that does not match your body, something fucked up in your development. Heck, we should find a treatment for it that doesn't end up in suicide, because I feel bad for them.


I dont care how its classified tbh, and i totally agree we need to find treatment. It just seems to me the best treatment for that is transitioning. Trans people can correct me here if im wrong but afaik thats the only treatment thats known to be effective. 


TheArcuzHunter said:


> Hey, stop that. I'm just doing my duty. God exists, and if you think otherwise, I'll pray for you to think otherwise. Make fun of me, don't care. I'm just trying to help out you people. It's my duty.


Im not making fun of you, im telling you to stop invalidating other people. Its really shitty of you. It is not your duty to go around telling other people that their identity is fake and need to live an incongruent life because of your personal beliefs.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> Shouldn't that be classified as a brain defect? If your brain developed in a way that does not match your body, something fucked up in your development. Heck, we should find a treatment for it that doesn't end up in suicide, because I feel bad for them.





TheArcuzHunter said:


> Hey, stop that. I'm just doing my duty. God exists, and if you think otherwise, I'll pray for you to think otherwise. Make fun of me, don't care. I'm just trying to help out you people. It's my duty.


Nope.
Get down your horses and treat people with respect, the same respect should be given back to you.


----------



## TheArcuzHunter (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> I dont care how its classified tbh, and i totally agree we need to find treatment. It just seems to me the best treatment for that is transitioning. Trans people can correct me here if im wrong but afaik thats the only treatment thats known to be effective.
> 
> Im not making fun of you, im telling you to stop invalidating other people. Its really shitty of you. It is not your duty to go around telling other people that their identity is fake and need to live an incongruent life because of your personal beliefs.


Just be happy with who you are. That's it.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



sarkwalvein said:


> Nope.
> Get down your horses and treat people with respect, the same respect should be given back to you.


I am! Just saying what's right, because being gay/lesbian/Bi/trans/etc is against God's commandments and rules, and it was demonstrated with "Sodom and gomorrah", those 2 cities where filled in sin, sexual relationships between the same sex, trans, etc. and God destroyed those two cities with fire. You can change, so change! If you don't, you will not prevail, and I encourage you to change! Be who you are! Don't try to be someone you aren't, because that's not right in the eyes of God!


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> It just seems to me the best treatment for that is transitioning. Trans people can correct me here if im wrong but afaik thats the only treatment thats known to be effective.


Transitioning doesn't help anyone at all, my friend. Stuff like suicide rates are up to almost 50% for female to male after transitioning. There should be at least some reduction, bu there isn't. The suicide rate is the exact same. We need to find a better way to treat them. I don't hate transgender people at all, don't get me wrong, I just think that when people made criticism of transitioning, people got defensive and are now defending it to the death even though it just doesn't do enough to help, if it even helps at all.




sarkwalvein said:


> Nope.
> Get down your horses and treat people with respect, the same respect should be given back to you.


That's why I say the things i do. Ignoring the fact that respect is a two way street, and I have no reason to respect them, I do treat people with common decency, and one of those things that I do is tell people the truth, and make sure that they're ok. Transitioning doesn't help anyone, and we gotta find a better way to treat it.

Note: I don't agree with the other guy's religious views on this subject.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> Transitioning doesn't help anyone at all, my friend. Stuff like suicide rates are up to almost 50% for female to male after transitioning. There should be at least some reduction, bu there isn't. The suicide rate is the exact same. We need to find a better way to treat them. I don't hate transgender people at all, don't get me wrong, I just think that when people made criticism of transitioning, people got defensive and are now defending it to the death even though it just doesn't do enough to help, if it even helps at all.


Oh I agree that there should be more help for sure, the suicide rate is a horrible problem and those numbers are really scary. I just dont think that other help and transitioning are mutually exclusive. We as a nation need to put far more stock into researching and treating all kinds of problems, gender dysphoria included. Id love to see more tax money go to that rather than giving more tax breaks to Jeff Bizos and co.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> That's why I say the things i do. Ignoring the fact that respect is a two way street, and I have no reason to respect them, I do treat people with common decency, and one of those things that I do is tell people the truth, and make sure that they're ok. Transitioning doesn't help anyone, and we gotta find a better way to treat it.
> 
> Note: I don't agree with the other guy's religious views on this subject.


Well, being sincere is for the better.
I kind of read your post like it was a sarcastic comment, as if your were setting yourself on a pedestal.
My bad.


----------



## osm70 (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> Just telling you gay/bi/lesbi/trans/etc etc, you could change. Even if your life is hell right now, you can change, and it will all be better. Be happy with who you are, and if you aren't, don't stop trying, fight against the thought of being someone you want to be (for example female if you're male) that you really aren't, and if you do, you will be forgiven!






TheArcuzHunter said:


> Just be happy with who you are. That's it.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...




OK, for the sake of the argument, let's assume these 2 things:

1. God exists

2. I am gay or trans or non-binary or whatever

Are you saying God will punish me for something I have no control of? If so, he's an asshole and I see no reason to obey him.


----------



## TheArcuzHunter (Oct 23, 2018)

osm70 said:


> OK, for the sake of the argument, let's assume these 2 things:
> 
> 1. God exists
> 
> ...


Wait, what? sorry I don't understand that statement, *theoretically* you can't control if you're gay or trans? Is that what you're saying?


----------



## SG854 (Oct 23, 2018)

x65943 said:


> Saying there is evidence does not make it exist. I have read into this way too much - like WAY TOO MUCH.
> 
> And just because something is a social construct, that doesn't mean it's easy to change. Consider that the career criminal and president were born essentially the same. But can you simply pray the crime away or make someone a functioning member of society just because his actions are learned? Of course not. Social conditioning is very strong and perhaps permanent in many cases. Just because something is learned behavior that doesn't make it possible to change. Think of wife beaters or pedophiles.


This doesn't make sense. Because isn't a common complaint among trans people that they are raised the opposite of what they actually feel. So if they are raised to match their sex at birth then wouldn't that be the default and wouldn't it be hard to turn transgender, since after all its hard to change how you are raised.

This would mean trans started acting trans by choice when they got older which contradicts that it was hard to change.
Or do you think trans were raised trans at birth which is why they act trans? That it's all a construct and there is nothing in the brain that affects this?


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> Wait, what? sorry I don't understand that statement, *theorically* you can't control if you're gay or trans? Is that what you're saying?


Being trans is biological. You cannot control it, theres physical brain differences. So god made you born in a way that if you lived the way you want to, youd be 'sinning'.


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 23, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> Well, being sincere is for the better.
> I kind of read your post like it was a sarcastic comment, as if your were setting yourself on a pedestal.
> My bad.


Nah don't worry about it man. Like, I'm not gonna start saying "Transgenders are evil and we gotta get rid of them!", but I'm also not gonna totally go along with something that's not actively helping them, and could be hurting them. If anything, that's being incredibly rude and disrespectful if you can't tell someone when they're doing something that's hurting them, or maybe not not hurting them, but not helping them in the way they think it is.


osm70 said:


> OK, for the sake of the argument, let's assume these 2 things:
> 
> 1. God exists
> 
> ...



The idea of a God is to impose morals onto a populace through force. While there are objective morals, people made religions to enforce subjective ones as well. I am not sure about a god, but you don't have to worry about what you're doing is immoral objectively. You're not hurting anyone, so you should be fine. But, if a Christian God does exist, and you are gay, then yes, you will be punished. Just don't worry too much about it, life's too short to worry about if being gay is ok.


----------



## osm70 (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> Wait, what? sorry I don't understand that statement, *theoretically* you can't control if you're gay or trans? Is that what you're saying?


Yes, I am saying that being gay or trans or non-binary is not my fault. I was born that way and there's nothing I can do to change it.


----------



## TheArcuzHunter (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Being trans is biological. You cannot control it, theres physical brain differences. So god made you born in a way that if you lived the way you want to, youd be 'sinning'.


That's just big bullcrap.
I see that you aren't going to cooperate in "changing", so I'm not going to keep on arguing anymore. My last words: Please change, not for me, for God. Love yourself as you came to earth, not who you want to be.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> That's just big bullcrap.
> I see that you aren't going to cooperate in "changing", so I'm not going to keep on arguing anymore. My last words: Please change, not for me, for God. Love yourself as you came to earth, not who you want to be.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/
https://bigthink.com/mike-colagross...ign-with-rather-than-what-they-were-born-with
https://www.the-scientist.com/featu...ifferent-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027
Tfw science is bullcrap and people who believe in facts are not 'cooperating'


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> You cannot control it, theres physical brain differences. So god made you born in a way that if you lived the way you want to, youd be 'sinning'.


Actually, under the Catholic religion, mental illness is a reason for a sin to be exempt. In Catholicism, if you're mentally ill and do something, God is understanding and won't punish you. That's in Catholicism anyways.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> Actually, under the Catholic religion, mental illness is a reason for a sin to be exempt. In Catholicism, if you're mentally ill and do something, God is understanding and won't punish you. That's in Catholicism anyways.


Well then if being gay or trans is considered by religion to be a mental illness, doesnt that make it ok? since youd be exempt.


----------



## osm70 (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> *That's just big bullcrap.*
> I see that you aren't going to cooperate in "changing", so I'm not going to keep on arguing anymore. My last words: Please change, not for me, for God. Love yourself as you came to earth, not who you want to be.


Source?


----------



## Wurstmann (Oct 23, 2018)

I am ok with defining gender solely based on your genitals. But once you have transitioned it should be adjusted and not say your old gender in the papers. Gender is binary except in very rare cases. Gender != sexual identity. Somebody with a penis should only be allowed to use men's bathrooms, no matter what they identify as. Just as someone with a penis but identifying as a woman should never be allowed to use women's parking spaces. Or participate in women's sports. And no, this is not about the imaginary pretend trans rapist, it's about not destroying safe spaces for a majority because of a minority.


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 23, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Well then if being gay or trans is considered by religion to be a mental illness, doesnt that make it ok? since youd be exempt.


Well, my understanding is that it's not really ok, but God won't punish you for being gay in itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were burned because people were indulging in homosexual acts for the sake of pleasure itself, which is a big no no in almost any religion. If you're gay, admit to yourself that it's a sin and repent, then I don't think in Catholicism you would be punished. If you act on it, and then repent after, you'd probably be fine. See the thing is this was crafted way back when people just saw homosexuality as a thing you can control. Now that we know that it's just something you are born with, then God is probably more forgiving of it than people thought when the Bible was written.


----------



## FAST6191 (Oct 23, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> But, if a Christian God does exist, and you are gay, then yes, you will be punished. Just don't worry too much about it, life's too short to worry about if being gay is ok.


But they tell me I will be sitting in fire for eternity (which is a rather long time) at a table unable to reach food because I am only allowed to use these massive sticks or something.


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

SG854 said:


> This doesn't make sense. Because isn't a common complaint among trans people that they are raised the opposite of what they actually feel. So if they are raised to match their sex at birth then wouldn't that be the default and wouldn't it be hard to turn transgender, since after all its hard to change how you are raised.
> 
> This would mean trans started acting trans by choice when they got older which contradicts that it was hard to change.
> Or do you think trans were raised trans at birth which is why they act trans? That it's all a construct and there is nothing in the brain that affects this?


I think gender itself is a social construct. For whatever reason people start to act certain ways.

Consider that men and women don't act the same way in every culture. In some contexts men act more stereotypically "Western feminine".

If it was in born I am just saying you would see more consistency in how men and women act across cultures.

Now this doesn't end the debate. But I think there is not enough evidence either way. And personally through the principle of parsimony where the most simple explanation is usually correct - I think it's a construct.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 23, 2018)

x65943 said:


> I think gender itself is a social construct. For whatever reason people start to act certain ways.
> 
> Consider that men and women don't act the same way in every culture. In some contexts men act more stereotypically "Western feminine".
> 
> ...


Except it is universal. Look towards countries with the most gender equality. They have the biggest male and female differences. When you neutralize environment as much as you can gender differences get bigger not smaller. Because people are free to choose what they desire most.

Countries with less gender equality have less male and female differences in career choices because women are forced to choose careers they don't want in order to survive. They take whatever they can get. There main concern is making that dollar. Women and men are capable of many of the same things, but women gravitate towards certain things because of evolution.

These differences are observable in a babies early months of birth. Males look at objects more, female looks at faces more. This is before any socialization happens. Females that have Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia have male like characteristics later in life. Gender differences is even observable in other animals like monkeys. Male monkeys prefer trucks with wheels, while females prefer dolls.

Saying its a gender construct invalidates that Transgenderism exists that its all made up. And we should from birth raise kids to match their sex since this will save a lot of headaches, this will stop future bullying and future problems from being transgender.


----------



## Jhyrachy (Oct 23, 2018)

Saying that gender is a social construct is misleading at best, malicious at worst.

There are tangible differences in how a 'female' brain is wired in comparison to a 'male' one (not so fun fact: a lot of transgender people  will find to have a 'female' brain in a male body and also the other way around)

We have to learn why is that so and to embrace the differences that we have, not try to deny them


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 23, 2018)

TheArcuzHunter said:


> Just telling you gay/bi/lesbi/trans/etc etc, you could change. Even if your life is hell right now, you can change, and it will all be better. Be happy with who you are, and if you aren't, don't stop trying, fight against the thought of being someone you want to be (for example female if you're male) that you really aren't, and if you do, you will be forgiven!


Trivializing ones gender identity and sexuality is what you're doing here.

Being gay/bi/lesbian isn't a "choice". There is scientific research that indicates it isn't. Suppressing it leads to much worse instances such as priests sexually abusing young boys. Not suppressing it would result in there being a whole lot less holy water being sprayed over these kids backs, which is a good thing.

Same w/r/t being trans: suppressing it leads to suicidical thoughts and loads of unhappiness and telling people just to be happy with it when we have the means to change it is the same as telling a depressive person they should just stop being sad. It's ineffective and flat out offensive to the person in question.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 23, 2018)

Nobody's being "defined out of existence" or "dehumanised", it's just simply a new definition of "sex", which is correct. This doesn’t deny any person’s humanity or existence.


----------



## Awstoned (Oct 23, 2018)

i mean no offense 


but why is this on a video game forum


----------



## VinsCool (Oct 23, 2018)

Awstoned said:


> i mean no offense
> 
> 
> but why is this on a video game forum


Because a section was specifically created for that. Nothing wrong with having other discussions in here.


----------



## Jhyrachy (Oct 23, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Same w/r/t being trans: suppressing it leads to suicidical thoughts and loads of unhappiness and telling people just to be happy with it when we have the means to change it is the same as telling a depressive person they should just stop being sad. It's ineffective and flat out offensive to the person in question.



This part is a lot more complex because 'Trans people' is just a blanket term to cover them all while people have differents needs.

Some people will embrace the transgender identity while overs, even while transitioning, will reject it stating that they just want to be a 'male' or a 'female', nota an 'MtF' or an 'FtM'

Depression and suicide also is linked to the quality of the surgery and procedure they perform because it impacts all their life, including the sexual one. That's why I had patients who performed estethic surgery but not genital surgery


----------



## Freezerbomb (Oct 23, 2018)

osm70 said:


> OK, for the sake of the argument, let's assume these 2 things:
> 
> 1. God exists
> 
> ...



What if you were a pedophile? Is that something that can be helped? Does that make it ok if you have no control over it?


----------



## Jhyrachy (Oct 23, 2018)

Freezerbomb said:


> What if you were a pedophile? Is that something that can be helped? Does that make it ok if you have no control over it?


First of all, we start breaking down what actual pedophile means:
The broader and 'ufficial' terms is: 'Pedohebephilia' and is devided in:
Infantophilia -> sexual preference for toddlers and infants (generally under 5 y/o)
Pedophilia -> sexual preference for PRE-PUBESCENT child
Hebephilia -> sexual preference for PUBESCENT
Ephebophilia -> sexual preference for POST-Pubescent

All of those imply sexual preference for a minor (under age of 18)

In the USA and some others country, often people mix all of them in an hot mess and group as 'pedophile' one who have sex with a 16 y/o without considering Her/his growth phase.

The first two, infantophilia and pedophilia are the worst because child of that age/growth do not feel the same sexual urges of adolescent and adults and their body is not developed enough to have safe sexual encounters.

If someone drop in this kind of definition, must not be persecuted if he/she never acted against anyone, but must be followed with a psychological help and often medicine to manage libido to prevent the act. If we shame people to hide until they no longer can control their urge, we are not doing anyone a favour.

The others two are less problematic, medically speaking, because often their body and mind is prone and ready to have sexual encounters, and the problem is just of the society, that's why in europe most country have a 14 y/o age of consent while the USA has an 18 y/o one. So if someone has a sexual preference like that, if the partner gave consent, there is nothing bad in consuming a relationship.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Oct 23, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> Y
> As for giving hormones to kids it is a very hard one from where I sit, and the sort of thing we have medical ethics be something as involved as it is for. On the one hand it is a very hard decision and while someone might tell "I always knew" everything I know of developmental psychology says hold on now, to say nothing of the far from non zero "failure" rate in the living as part of the traditional hormones+living as+counselling model, and as also mentioned it is somewhat uncharted territory as far as resulting chemical effects* and even the cost of it all (not a cheap hobby). On the other then the resulting efficacy of treatment can be theoretically increased, to say nothing of potentially subjecting people unnecessarily to years, formative years at that, of unpleasantness.


I feel it should definitely be 18+ to consider hormones, we dont allow people to smoke, drink, sign a contractual agreement, but yet to make unalterable a decision that they may possibly regret (especially those that have parents that may be choseing for them). Also in male - female, the penis does not grow large enough to be inverted into a vagina if hormones are given too early (I'm pretty sure this is true, and not that i would agree if this wasnt the case, but its a argument that even the transgender community should be behind. And yes im sure some if not most are.).


----------



## Freezerbomb (Oct 23, 2018)

Jhyrachy said:


> First of all, we start breaking down what actual pedophile means:
> The broader and 'ufficial' terms is: 'Pedohebephilia' and is devided in:
> Infantophilia -> sexual preference for toddlers and infants (generally under 5 y/o)
> Pedophilia -> sexual preference for PRE-PUBESCENT child
> ...



Good, We seem to be on the same page. The majority of humans realize that desire to have sex with a child/baby is wrong, because it could harm them physically and psychologically. Having harmful desires does not make him/her evil. However, acting on them does.

I won't give an opinion on gender identities. However, if being trans does indeed do psychological harm, and it's something that could spread to others through influence, then there is most certainly a problem here.

If you haven't read about Mass Hysteria before, this is a good read.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases.

.


----------



## astronautlevel (Oct 23, 2018)

Freezerbomb said:


> Good, We seem to be on the same page. The majority of humans realize that desire to have sex with a child/baby is wrong, because it could harm them physically and psychologically. Having harmful desires does not make him/her evil. However, acting on them does.
> 
> I won't give an opinion on gender identities. However, if being trans does indeed do psychological harm, and it's something that could spread to others through influence, then there is most certainly a problem here.
> 
> ...


I can't believe someone would be idiotic enough to compare being transgender with pedophilia.


----------



## Freezerbomb (Oct 23, 2018)

astronautlevel said:


> I can't believe someone would be idiotic enough to compare being transgender with pedophilia.


I'm sorry that you were offended. I made no comparison between transgender & pedophilia. I was only applying osm70's principle about free will in a different situation to show the flaws in his logic. Although, calling someone idiotic is kinda rude. You should apologize.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Oct 23, 2018)

Jhyrachy said:


> The others two are less problematic, medically speaking, because often their body and mind is prone and ready to have sexual encounters, and the problem is just of the society, that's why in europe most country have a 14 y/o age of consent while the USA has an 18 y/o one.


Actually the age of consent in most US states is 16. Most also don't require parental permission or "close-in-age" statutes either.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Oct 23, 2018)

Freezerbomb said:


> I'm sorry that you were offended. I made no comparison between transgender & pedophilia. I was only applying osm70's principle about free will in a different situation to show the flaws in his logic. Although, calling someone idiotic is kinda rude. You should apologize.


I apologize for reading this post and the one before and thinking that people react like hysterical crybabies. Even though getting defensive and reacting out of proportion when there was no attack can be considered not something particularly wise, there is no reason to stereotype all babies as hysterical crying beings.


----------



## Freezerbomb (Oct 23, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> I apologize for reading this post and the one before and thinking that people react like hysterical crybabies. Even though getting defensive and reacting out of proportion when there was no attack can be considered not something particularly wise, there is no reason to stereotype all babies as hysterical crying beings.



Did you quote my post on purpose? Or are you talking to someone else?

What do you mean by defensive, attacks and crybabies? You're post seems a bit serious and emotional. I'm so confused.

.


----------



## AmandaRose (Oct 23, 2018)

Freezerbomb said:


> Did you quote my post on purpose? Or are you talking to someone else?
> 
> What do you mean by defensive, attacks and crybabies? You're post seems a bit serious and emotional. I'm so confused.
> 
> .


You were quoted for the fact you got all upset and pissed and demanded an apology and said @sarkwalvein said you were idiotic when all sarkwalvein said was you made an idiotic comment which is totally different from being idiotic.


----------



## x65943 (Oct 23, 2018)

The facts: we know almost nothing definitive about gender

The spin: we do

The bad actors: profess we do with bad science and outright lies

The strategy: claim and profess agenda with authority until the other side is quiet

The result: the appearance of unanimity in facts despite lack of facts

This thread: endless stating useless information with no real dialogue. Both sides shouting but almost no one listening or intending to listen - with only a thin veneer of understanding.

The bigger picture: this may be seen as a microcosm of politics in every sphere, not just today, but throughout history.


----------



## Freezerbomb (Oct 23, 2018)

AmandaRose said:


> You were quoted for the fact you got all upset and pissed and demanded an apology and said @sarkwalvein said you were idiotic when all sarkwalvein said was you made an idiotic comment which is totally different from being idiotic.



lol, I never got upset. In my country it's normal to ask for an apology when someone is rude. But I don't really care about that. I'm just going to stay away from this area of gbatemp from now on. It's too dramatic here.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 24, 2018)

x65943 said:


> *The facts: we know almost nothing definitive about gender*
> 
> The spin: we do
> 
> ...




Wait, not so fast. When you say "The facts: we know almost nothing definitive about gender," this presupposes that 'gender' (as a thing separate from biological sex) is something real and that there are things to know about it, we just don't know about it yet. If you look back a couple pages to my post about John Money, this "gender" as a separate thing from a person's biological sex is just an idea that a very messed up individual thought up. Read about the sick shit he did and you'll understand why he thought it up. 

So "The facts" are that some people _believe _this, some don't. Biology says there are two sexes, male and female.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 24, 2018)

x65943 said:


> The facts: we know almost nothing definitive about gender
> 
> The spin: we do
> 
> ...


I don’t know why that gender as a social construct is being pushed at all. Gender scholars should accept that they are wrong, and shouldn’t be called scholars. They don’t do any good scientific  research and have an agenda they are pushing. People that take gender studies in colleges come out dumber then when they went in.

And college campuses have a liberal agenda they are pushing that is anti science. People go in and are exposed to propaganda. Many people leave academia because they are bullied for comming out with the facts. Theorists only act on theory, they don’t bother to read the research because that takes time and effort they don’t want to put in. People say there is an agenda because it’s true. Scientific research is being skewed because it makes people happy. You can thank feminism and transgender activists for this.

Thousands of studies document the effects of prenatal testosterone. Higher levels makes children more into more male typical behaviors. Lowers levels gives them more female typical behaviors and males have more female friends. It also affects sexual orientation. Even in animals, males that have lowers levels of testosterone have more female interests and are interested in male animals. If gender is a construct then sexual orientation is a choice. And I’m sure gender as a construct advocates won’t go there.

This is not to say environment does not play a role. Both environment and biology do. But environment does not override biology. A male that wants to play with female toys, parents can try all they want to encourage him to play with boys toys, but he is still going to prefer girls toys and when he gets older gravitate towards female typical occupations.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Oct 24, 2018)

One of the main things I have to say is that no one will ever be "defined out of existence"....


----------



## Viri (Oct 24, 2018)

Freezerbomb said:


> What if you were a pedophile? Is that something that can be helped? Does that make it ok if you have no control over it?


If you have no control over it, and have an uncontrollable urge to rape children, then you should be in a mental ward, and get chemically castrated before you're ever allowed to leave.


----------



## orangy57 (Oct 24, 2018)

dude WHATS THE DEAL WITH RELIGIOUS PEOPLE just let people live their lives, gotdang. Like gay marriage, why do people care so much that they had to make it illegal for almost 2,000 years? How does it affect them?


----------



## supersonicwaffle (Oct 24, 2018)

This is all so confusing.
To tell you the truth, I haven't looked much into things as I simply have no interest in what people do with their lives unless it's unlawful.

Here's what my understanding regarding the topic is:

sex and gender used to be used interchangeably
the left has pushed to define sex as biological and gender as a social construct. The consequence would be that the terms aren't interchangeable anymore.
a memo from the trump administration has been leaked that defines sex as a biological trait
Here's what I don't understand

I haven't seen the memo but my interpretation is that it gives credit to sex and gender being seperate things and thus acknowledging what the left has been fighting for
Left wing media (nytimes) is using sex and gender interchangeably, thus discrediting the idea that sex and gender are seperate things
The OP is using sex and gender interchangeably, thus discrediting the idea that sex and gender are seperate things
People make an argument here that the government has no business to define sex but gender needs to be defined to grant protection to transgender people. This doesn't make sense to me, please clarify. Would you agree that something that isn't regulated / defined gives you the liberty to do as you wish?
The way it currently looks to me is that people on the left really need to learn how to make an argument that doesn't undermine their cause!


----------



## Ev1l0rd (Oct 24, 2018)

Freezerbomb said:


> I'm sorry that you were offended. I made no comparison between transgender & pedophilia. I was only applying osm70's principle about free will in a different situation to show the flaws in his logic. Although, calling someone idiotic is kinda rude. You should apologize.


Ah yes. Because a 30 or so something man wanting to take his dick out and fuck a 5 year old is totally comparable to someone being stuck in the wrong body.

Yep. Totally comparable.


----------



## Navonod (Oct 24, 2018)

I'd care but I'm honestly tired off seeing the word used by people who are misusing for attention.


----------



## supersonicwaffle (Oct 24, 2018)

osm70 said:


> 2. I am gay or trans or non-binary or whatever





Freezerbomb said:


> What if you were a pedophile? Is that something that can be helped? Does that make it ok if you have no control over it?





Ev1l0rd said:


> Ah yes. Because a 30 or so something man wanting to take his dick out and fuck a 5 year old is totally comparable to someone being stuck in the wrong body.
> 
> Yep. Totally comparable.



Are you saying gay people are stuck in the wrong body? How bigoted!

See, this is what it looks like to intentionally miss the point. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but maybe you should try harder.

He was giving an extreme example to ask a christian person to what extent god forgives people for actions they have no control over even if it's a sin or, in the case of a pedophile, abuse.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

This whole situation perfectly explains how people will try their hardest to make Trump seem like some evil rights-hating monster for something that is completely fine. It's actually quite funny.

"What? He defines sex as something defined from your biology??? What a racist sexist bigot!!!!!"


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 24, 2018)

x65943 said:


> The facts: we know almost nothing definitive about gender
> 
> The spin: we do
> 
> ...



The radical centrist appears.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> This whole situation perfectly explains how people will try their hardest to make Trump seem like some evil rights-hating monster for something that is completely fine. It's actually quite funny.
> 
> "What? He defines sex as something defined from your biology??? What a racist sexist bigot!!!!!"


The term is transGENDER not transSEX and biologically these people are mentally the gender than they identify as. He is *incorrectly* labeling their gender based off of biology because a trans woman has a womans brain biologically.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

bi388 said:


> The term is transGENDER not transSEX and biologically these people are mentally the gender than they identify as. He is *incorrectly* labeling their gender based off of biology because a trans woman has a womans brain biologically.


No, he's correctly labeling sex based off biology. Nothing about gender, although gender is a massive part of sex. For some reason, people like to get "sex", "gender" (which is the mental and physilogical of sex), and "gender identity" mixed up.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> No, he's correctly labeling sex based off biology. Nothing about gender, although gender is a massive part of sex.


Except his administration is claiming that biologically these people are born as one gender and need to be identified that way, ignoring the fact that there are biological similarities with the gender they identify as. He is ignoring facts that go against his agenda.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

bi388 said:


> Except his administration is claiming that biologically these people are born as one gender and need to be identified that way, ignoring the fact that there are biological similarities with the gender they identify as. He is ignoring facts that go against his agenda.


If you actually read it and searched into it, he clearly talks about the definition of sex. Sex isn't gender identity.


----------



## ferret7463 (Oct 24, 2018)

why is this topic even on a "Video Game" forum? I'm sure there are a lot of other places that you can spew this SJW garbage at.......


----------



## Attacker3 (Oct 24, 2018)

ferret7463 said:


> why is this topic even on a "Video Game" forum? I'm sure there are a lot of other places that you can spew this SJW garbage at.......


Because this is the politics section. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. At least we're not like other video game forums that have a massive political bias in favor of the left. In this we actually have people debating and the mods staying away.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> If you actually read it and searched into it, he clearly talks about the definition of sex. Sex isn't gender identity.


I read it, he talks about biology but only mentions the stuff that fits with his agenda. He never mentions the biological differences that link trans people to the gender they identify as. Ignoring facts that arent part of his narrative. I'm talking physical observable differences in the brains biology.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

ferret7463 said:


> why is this topic even on a "Video Game" forum? I'm sure there are a lot of other places that you can spew this SJW garbage at.......


Although this is probably borderline propaganda, this is the politics section. Don't wanna see it? Don't come here.


----------



## WeedZ (Oct 24, 2018)

Attacker3 said:


> Because this is the politics section. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. At least we're not like other video game forums that have a massive political bias in favor of the left. In this we actually have people debating and the mods staying away.



We're always here. Always watching.


----------



## ferret7463 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> Although this is probably borderline propaganda, this is the politics section. Don't wanna see it? Don't come here.


it keeps showing up on the front page.....


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

bi388 said:


> I read it, he talks about biology but only mentions the stuff that fits with his agenda. He never mentions the biological differences that link trans people to the gender they identify as. Ignoring facts that arent part of his narrative. I'm talking physical observable differences in the brains biology.


Yes, it's called gender identity disorder/gender dysphoria. Just because you have a mental condition doesn't change your *sex*. Your sex is 100% biological and will stick with you, and your genitals are proof of your sex.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> Yes, it's called gender identity disorder/gender dysphoria. Just because you have a mental condition doesn't change your *sex*. Your sex is 100% biological and will stick with you, and your genitals are proof of your sex.


You arent listening to me. I'm talking about biologically. There is a biological difference in the physical brain between a transgender person born male and a non trans male. But he is fine with ignoring that biological difference cause it doesnt hell him.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ferret7463 said:


> it keeps showing up on the front page.....


Then ignore it? Xbox one stuff shows up, I dont have an xbox one, I dont go there and complain.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

bi388 said:


> There is a biological difference in the physical brain between a transgender person born male and a non trans male.


Yes, the chemistry between the normal and the gender dysphoric brain is different, I never denied that. That's why I said it was a mental condition.



bi388 said:


> But he is fine with ignoring that biological difference cause it doesnt hell him.


He's not ignoring it. He's talking about sex, NOT gender identity.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> Yes, the chemistry between the normal and the gender dysphoric brain is different, I never denied that. That's why I said it was a mental condition.
> 
> 
> He's not ignoring it. He's talking about sex, NOT gender identity.


If sex is defined by physical differences between the sexes, then it would follow you have to also look at the fact a trans woman has a physically female brain, but he doesnt.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

bi388 said:


> If sex is defined by physical differences between the sexes, then it would follow you have to also look at the fact a trans woman has a physically female brain, but he doesnt.


Uh you do know that the mental aspect of sex is called gender, right? Gender dysphoria makes your chemistry different from those of the same sex as you, it doesn't affect your sex. You can not change your sex, and your genitals are proof of your sex. And does he have to be transgender to define sex as biological? I don't see why that matters. Anywho, his logic is correct, and people are just bending what he's actually saying to make him look evil.


----------



## AmandaRose (Oct 24, 2018)

Absolutely love how the haters here keep saying being transgender is a mental health disorder yet the World Health Organisation and many of the worlds doctors and scientists say its not. But hey I guess its just easier for the haters to say that myself and every other transgender is mentally ill.


----------



## J-Machine (Oct 24, 2018)

i think its important to have a distinction between sex and gender. mainly for medical reasons. That being said only acknowledging the biological aspect of ones identity is very wrong.


----------



## WeedZ (Oct 24, 2018)

bi388 said:


> You arent listening to me. I'm talking about biologically. There is a biological difference in the physical brain between a transgender person born male and a non trans male. But he is fine with ignoring that biological difference cause it doesnt hell him.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Is there a physical difference between the brains of Male and females or is it different between cis and gender dysphoric. Because if it's the latter it's not evidence that gender can be measured, just that dysphoria can be diagnosed with fmri.



AmandaRose said:


> Absolutely love how the haters here keep saying being transgender is a mental health disorder yet the World Health Organisation and many of the worlds doctors and scientists say its not. But hey I guess its just easier for the haters to say that myself and every other transgender is mentally ill.



I'm not a hater, but if your mind and body are two different genders, there's a disorder there. Something went wrong. Either a mental or genetic disorder. But that can be debated.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> Uh you do know that the mental aspect of sex is called gender, right? Gender dysphoria makes your chemistry different from those of the same sex as you, it doesn't affect your sex. You can not change your sex, and your genitals are proof of your sex. And does he have to be transgender to define sex as biological? I don't see why that matters. Anywho, his logic is correct, and people are just bending what he's actually saying to make him look evil.


Look. Biological means your physical body structure. Your brain is part of your physical body structure. So if your sex is whatever group your physical body resembles, theres the issue that trans people have brains that do not resemble their born sex's brain structure, but rather their identifies sex's. This contradicts trump's "you are whatever sex your biology is" thing. If you cant see how a trans woman having physical characteristics of a woman contradicts trump saying that it is all based off of physical characteristics, I cant help.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



WeedZ said:


> Is there a physical difference between the brains of Male and females or is it different between cis and gender dysphoric. Because if it's the latter it's not evidence that gender is can be measured, just that dysphoria can be diagnosed


I posted some studies a few pages back, it seems that there are physical differences between male and female brains and that trans peoples brains closer resemble their identities genders brain.


----------



## Kingy (Oct 24, 2018)

bi388 said:


> but rather their identifies sex's


Look, It's incorrect to say you have a different sex, because you can't change sex. I've said this countless times, sex =/= gender identity. When somebody is trans"gender", they change their gender identity, not their sex or gender. You'll always biologically be the same sex/gender wether you like it or not.


----------



## bi388 (Oct 24, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> Look, It's incorrect to say you have a different sex, because you can't change sex. I've said this countless times, sex =/= gender identity. When somebody is trans"gender", they change their gender identity, not their sex or gender. You'll always biologically be the same sex/gender wether you like it or not.


Transgender doesnt mean you changed sex. It means you were born with the physical brain of the other sex. So biologically you arent the same as the sex you are born as because your brain is biologically different from theirs.


----------



## Freezerbomb (Oct 24, 2018)

Ev1l0rd said:


> Ah yes. Because a 30 or so something man wanting to take his dick out and fuck a 5 year old is totally comparable to someone being stuck in the wrong body.
> 
> Yep. Totally comparable.


There was no comparison made. Do you even know what that word means? The only similarity between them is that they are labels invented by people. Hint: If you want people to take you seriously, lose the sarcasm.


----------



## KingVamp (Oct 24, 2018)

Quite frankly, the thread blow up so quickly and I'm still trying to process it all, including the OP, but...


bi388 said:


> I posted some studies a few pages back, it seems that there are physical differences between male and female brains and that trans peoples brains closer resemble their identities genders brain.


Even if this true, being more likely to be feminine or masculine seems like a big jump from that to a whole gender change, to me.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 25, 2018)

bi388 said:


> I posted some studies a few pages back, it seems that there are physical differences between male and female brains and that trans peoples brains closer resemble their identities genders brain.


And yet some people deny those studies and say gender is a social construct.



WeedZ said:


> I'm not a hater, but if your mind and body are two different genders, there's a disorder there. Something went wrong. Either a mental or genetic disorder. But that can be debated.


Something went wrong in the womb and some developmental problem happened that caused this.

The only reason I see them say it's not a disorder is because that's the best they got right now since there is no cure.
So might as well say they are normal and see them as normal people so they are not bullied.

But if technology advances and we can manipulate the brain so that their brain matches sex organs, will it then be classified a disorder in the future? A disorder that we can cure. This is why I think they don't classify it as a disorder now, because it's best way to handle this situation for now.


----------



## Harumyne (Oct 25, 2018)

SG854 said:


> And yet some people deny those studies and say gender is a social construct.
> 
> 
> Something went wrong in the womb and some developmental problem happened that caused this.
> ...



That sounds horrible mate! a future where someone's brain can be altered to fit in with society like a jigsaw piece? fuck that man, if that was a possibility on earth I would drop so much acid they wouldn't know where to start! oh wait, too late! 

Imagine that as a possibility, and where would it end?

The technology would pose a double edged sword and in the wrong moral application could spell doom for us all!

And it's not nice to be denied for simplicity, that's my view.


----------



## SG854 (Oct 25, 2018)

Elemi said:


> The technology would pose a double edged sword and in the wrong moral application could spell doom for us all!


We all can turn into metrosexuals and crab people will invade


----------



## Harumyne (Oct 25, 2018)

SG854 said:


> We all can turn into metrosexuals and crab people will invade


At least we all know where to attack to inflict massive damage.


----------



## Jhyrachy (Oct 25, 2018)

The best thing about this kind of thread is the people who has no idea about what they are talking about and act all mighty because they found something on the internet that support their position.

And this is valid for both side.


----------



## Dominator211 (Oct 25, 2018)

Your Basically taking away people rights. let them choose they aren't hurting anyone. this is why I fear for this country people making decisions like these without consulting the people's opinion. I love to live in America without a doubt, i just worry for the future of my generation and my kids


----------



## FAST6191 (Oct 26, 2018)

Elemi said:


> That sounds horrible mate! a future where someone's brain can be altered to fit in with society like a jigsaw piece? fuck that man, if that was a possibility on earth I would drop so much acid they wouldn't know where to start! oh wait, too late!
> 
> Imagine that as a possibility, and where would it end?
> 
> ...



Are we not already there? We just misdiagnose it as ADHD or similar.

Are you bored working in an office for 70% of your awake week with no natural light and living in surburbs where you likely don't know your neighbours more than one house either way and the only friends you have being those from school (a diminishing resource as time goes on), work or your family? Why not try ritalin and zoloft? Move somewhere with people, get a job that interests you and actually meet some people? That is way more trouble than a few pills 4 times a day.
This is before we even consider what school typically is (hint, the militaries and factories of the 1800s did not want people that could think and their desires still form the basis of the current systems).

Anyway choices are good.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Oct 26, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> Are we not already there? We just misdiagnose it as ADHD or similar.
> 
> Are you bored working in an office for 70% of your awake week with no natural light and living in surburbs where you likely don't know your neighbours more than one house either way and the only friends you have being those from school (a diminishing resource as time goes on), work or your family? Why not try ritalin and zoloft? Move somewhere with people, get a job that interests you and actually meet some people? That is way more trouble than a few pills 4 times a day.
> This is before we even consider what school typically is (hint, the militaries and factories of the 1800s did not want people that could think and their desires still form the basis of the current systems).
> ...


Why ritalin when you have the temps and videogames?


----------



## Aeter (Oct 26, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> Are we not already there? We just misdiagnose it as ADHD or similar.
> 
> Are you bored working in an office for 70% of your awake week with no natural light and living in surburbs where you likely don't know your neighbours more than one house either way and the only friends you have being those from school (a diminishing resource as time goes on), work or your family? Why not try ritalin and zoloft? Move somewhere with people, get a job that interests you and actually meet some people? That is way more trouble than a few pills 4 times a day.
> This is before we even consider what school typically is (hint, the militaries and factories of the 1800s did not want people that could think and their desires still form the basis of the current systems).
> ...


Ah there's someone who makes sense here, good.

Let me try to make some sense too.

I see a lot of people confusing words like sex and gender and I get that. But let's just stick with sex is male or female (yes there's also others but those are exceptions, like micro-penis and huge clitoritis or something) and gender is a lifestyle choice like being a gamer or a sports type. Sports types for example like talking about running all the time and run to work and love runner's highs and all that, it's their lifestyle. Same as gender, you identify as a woman although your sex is male, just means you probably like putting on makeup, grow long hair, play with barbies rather than legos, etc., etc. and that's fine. Everyone should be able choose what they want to be and how to live. The government shouldn't have any say in that. The problem is that we still have things like hate crimes, racial as well as gender based or what have you. That's what needs to be erased if you want true equality. No documents need to have your race or gender or sex on it, except for the private medical files of your doctor, because to him/her/apache helicopter/frankenstein it can be very helpful diagnosing an illness for instance. If official documents don't specify these things any more, we can start treating each other equally and stop speaking of hate crimes and just call it crime. It shouldn't matter if you call someone a black transexual fartsniffer or a white gay nazi furry, as long everyone receives equal treatment and equal lawful punishment for crossing the law. Now you have racism and genderism existing because they have special laws and the media likes to jump on these things like trampolines because it creates a lot of uproar and that's what the media wants, otherwise they'd have nothing to do. 
If you want equal treatment, you need equal laws that apply to everyone and the removal of putting people in specific boxes, be it with legal documents or whatever.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Oct 26, 2018)

Aeter said:


> Ah there's someone who makes sense here, good.
> 
> Let me try to make some sense too.
> 
> ...


In the case of DHHS, they want to know sex because that's one of the factors they use in dealing out assistance. A single mother is more likely to get assistance than a single dad in my experience. I apply and I have to do these phone interviews and tons of paperwork, check stubs, all that shit. The phone interview was more like an interrogation and they made sure to set it up for a date and time I was going to be at work, so I had to take a long lunch for it. It would have been easier to apply for a job at the CIA. My ex applies, gets food stamps and medicaid for her and our kids, no problem.


----------



## Harumyne (Oct 26, 2018)

LSD can set you free, no more worrying about what others think of you in a way which hurts your psyche/mental state, _knowing _that you are an individual and that maybe you are right and they are wrong or at least misguided, the ability to even forgive those who hate you because you understand that maybe they are jealous that they never went down the other road that they know you did when faced with said choice.

The world isn't the same as it was pre-war, we are in alien times, bois.

Time to reconfigure!


----------



## pasc (Oct 26, 2018)

The brain differences in TG people are provable.

How do they intend to "remove that out of existance" ?

T-F...


----------



## Harumyne (Oct 26, 2018)

pasc said:


> The brain differences in TG people are provable.
> 
> How do they intend to "remove that out of existance" ?
> 
> T-F...



I think this thread is out of proportion, it's just the law for documents of identity, etc.

While it is shit what they're doing, it doesn't mean people will physically have to alter the way they live, sure it means people will have to be ready for the fact that getting a job and similar things, you will give away that you're transitioning because they will see either the F or M printed in bold type below your name, and yeah, lack of personal privacy/transparency.


----------



## dAVID_ (Oct 26, 2018)

The only real usefulness I see in this is the "objective sex" part. As said earlier, being transgender doesn't affect your sex, that will always stay the same.
For instance, the maximum recommended dose of alcohol is different in men and women. If you were to be a woman but confused as a man, you could get harmful medical advice.
But I don't find eliminating the concept of being transgender as something that will benefit society.


----------



## kevin corms (Oct 31, 2018)

AmandaRose said:


> Hmm so my birth certificate says I am female. My government class me as female. I have all the same rights as any other female. I look like a female. I think like a female I talk life a female dress like a female smell like a female. But no @kevin corms has spoken and according to him I am still male lol.
> 
> Oh and for the record Kevin I didn't change who I was I BECAME WHO I ALWAYS WAS.
> 
> *#WontBeErased*


Do what you want, im not erasing you. But you are a male, its insane to say otherwise. To summarize, you are a male who acts and looks like a female... and thats 100% ok with me.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Dominator211 said:


> Your Basically taking away people rights. let them choose they aren't hurting anyone. this is why I fear for this country people making decisions like these without consulting the people's opinion. I love to live in America without a doubt, i just worry for the future of my generation and my kids


This is insane, you are what you are. It has nothing to do with rights, if someone is a woman then they are a woman or vice versa. How is this even a debate? Having said that, if a man wants to act and look like a woman or vice versa, they have every right to do so without people demonizing them for it. Or is this about people wanting to be able to lie about who they are and they are somehow feeling its their right?


----------



## OrGoN3 (Oct 31, 2018)

I'm just going to leave one point, and it really bugs me. Here we go. About 6 months ago, US Citizenship was granted to an Artificial Intelligent Robot. The first robotic citizen. Now, 6 months later, for some reason, the US government is still debating about _human_ rights? This is disgusting and deplorable.

Every human is entitled to the same rights as every other human. No ifs, ands, or buts! We've already began classifying robots as sentient/alive, and we're still arguing over which bathroom someone can use? Let me reveal a secret with you: No matter which bathroom is open, when I gotta go, I gotta go. And I do.

And no, this isn't me starting a rally against AI citizens. It's just that we have reached such a high level of technology, and we're still attempting to limit people's rights because they feel different?

</2cents>


----------



## kevin corms (Oct 31, 2018)

OrGoN3 said:


> I'm just going to leave one point, and it really bugs me. Here we go. About 6 months ago, US Citizenship was granted to an Artificial Intelligent Robot. The first robotic citizen. Now, 6 months later, for some reason, the US government is still debating about _human_ rights? This is disgusting and deplorable.
> 
> Every human is entitled to the same rights as every other human. No ifs, ands, or buts! We've already began classifying robots as sentient/alive, and we're still arguing over which bathroom someone can use? Let me reveal a secret with you: No matter which bathroom is open, when I gotta go, I gotta go. And I do.
> 
> ...


that was Saudi Arabia that granted a robot citizenship, thats an entire other thread. This has nothing to do with human rights, you simply cant actually change what you are. Nobody is being thrown in jail for being trans or anything like that, although we could go a long way in making our culture more accepting of people who look and act like the opposite sex. People are always fighting the wrong battles because of insane people using identity politics.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


----------



## sarkwalvein (Oct 31, 2018)

kevin corms said:


> you simply cant actually change what you are


Honest question. What makes you think this?
I mean, people are not static... well, unless you believe in fate and the nonexistence of free will. In that case you always were what you were going to be and that's it.
Otherwise you can't change the past, but other than that how can't you change what you are?
What do you mean by that?

Actually, what defines you, according to you?
What are those things that are unchangeable and why? Are you talking perhaps about some technological limitation of the current time?

I am not sure I follow what are you trying to say, so I don't know if I agree or disagree.
If you are talking about something technological, sure that could be changed in the future... I mean, just lift some bans and put some research on it and it will be reached, but are you talking about that? What are you talking about?


----------



## kevin corms (Oct 31, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> Honest question. What makes you think this?
> I mean, people are not static... well, unless you believe in fate and the nonexistence of free will. In that case you always were what you were going to be and that's it.
> Otherwise you can't change the past, but other than that how can't you change what you are?
> What do you mean by that?
> ...



Im talking at a biological level, you cant change that. Im really not sure what will happen in the future, I cant see how we will be changing somebodies dna/biology anytime soon though. Again, im not against people identifying as a different sex, but that doesnt change who they are.


----------



## Aeter (Nov 1, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> In the case of DHHS, they want to know sex because that's one of the factors they use in dealing out assistance. A single mother is more likely to get assistance than a single dad in my experience. I apply and I have to do these phone interviews and tons of paperwork, check stubs, all that shit. The phone interview was more like an interrogation and they made sure to set it up for a date and time I was going to be at work, so I had to take a long lunch for it. It would have been easier to apply for a job at the CIA. My ex applies, gets food stamps and medicaid for her and our kids, no problem.


Yes, that is a problem now. Hence, why I said sex should not be on any legal documents whatsoever. And that is a start to work towards equality for all. In the mean time you can just say your a woman but are swallowing male hormones and that's what caused your deep voice or some shit.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



kevin corms said:


> Im talking at a biological level, you cant change that. Im really not sure what will happen in the future, I cant see how we will be changing somebodies dna/biology anytime soon though. Again, im not against people identifying as a different sex, but that doesnt change who they are.


It does change "who" they are, it just doesn't change their sex chromosomes.


----------

