# Intellivision Amico announced, boldly claims that it'll have better 2D graphics than the PS4 or XB1



## Naendow (Oct 21, 2018)

Sounds interesting imo. But I don't think that this is something most people would buy.


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## Chary (Oct 21, 2018)

Ah yes, I'm glad Intellivision will finally bring about revolution with its amazing pixel art games that'll totally have better graphics than the PS5 will. Sony fans are quaking in their boots.

Thinking realistically, I'm sure this'll be a neat little addition to the NES Classics and Super NTs already out there, but they seem to be trying too hard to oversell on this little product.


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## Naendow (Oct 21, 2018)

I haven't looked on the controller before. What can you do with a touchpad and one button today?


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## Deleted User (Oct 21, 2018)

Naendow said:


> I haven't looked on the controller before. What can you do with a touchpad and one button today?


the entirety of the android play store and ios app store only use a touchpad and no buttons


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## Naendow (Oct 21, 2018)

LiveLatios said:


> the entirety of the android play store and ios app store only use a touchpad and no buttons


True. But we're not talking about mobile games. And except for that, smartphones have a display with touch capabilities, not a touchpad.


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## tech3475 (Oct 21, 2018)

At first I thought it said 'better 3D graphics'.

Makes me wonder what games they'll have to justify that claim and to entice sales for what feels like a niche product, particularly at that price and with the age restriction.

So far it doesn't fill me with much confidence.



Naendow said:


> I haven't looked on the controller before. What can you do with a touchpad and one button today?



I suspect the round button in the d pad and they'll use the touch screen for everything else.

The controller alone makes it a poor console in my book.


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## Naendow (Oct 21, 2018)

That is also possible. But that would still he really weird to play with.


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## Song of storms (Oct 21, 2018)

With that claim, they probably meant 2D graphics with a lot of details. Something that technically wasn't that much explored, as indie devs will usually play with big sprite tiles. Take Stardew Valley, for example. A beautiful game but you just know that it could have been better.

The current gen consoles have been out for enough time to draw conclusions about the state of 2D sprites in the gaming industry and I agree with them. Let's hope that they can actually deliver. I feel like developers have gone the extra mile with 3D models improvements but have never touched 2D games' graphics complexity with that same passion again. But that's not up to Intellivision, rather to the developers that will choose to develop on this system. What's stopping from developers to simply put the same portings on their console?

If the project won't be canceled, it will be interesting.


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## Nyteshade714 (Oct 21, 2018)

This just in: the world doesn't understand sarcasm


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## Deleted User (Oct 21, 2018)

Naendow said:


> True. But we're not talking about mobile games. And except for that, smartphones have a display with touch capabilities, not a touchpad.


literally the same thing, just one displays something at the same time


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## Arras (Oct 21, 2018)

Song of storms said:


> With that claim, they probably meant 2D graphics with a lot of details. Something that technically wasn't that much explored, as indie devs will usually play with big sprite tiles. Take Stardew Valley, for example. A beautiful game but you just know that it could have been better.
> 
> The current gen consoles have been out for enough time to draw conclusions about the state of 2D sprites in the gaming industry and I agree with them. Let's hope that they can actually deliver. I feel like developers have gone the extra mile with 3D models improvements but have never touched 2D games' graphics complexity with that same passion again. But that's not up to Intellivision, rather to the developers that will choose to develop on this system. What's stopping from developers to simply put the same portings on their console?
> 
> If the project won't be canceled, it will be interesting.


That's almost always a software thing though, not hardware. I have absolutely no idea what they mean with that graphics comment.


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## gman666 (Oct 21, 2018)

*Looks at date* April fools is really far away hmmm.


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## Song of storms (Oct 21, 2018)

Arras said:


> That's almost always a software thing though, not hardware. I have absolutely no idea what they mean with that graphics comment.


As I wrote in the post you just quoted, yes.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 21, 2018)

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There are no limitations in 2D graphics, there are zero devs in existence who don't have enough resources for their 2D games.


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## spinal_cord (Oct 21, 2018)

Naendow said:


> I haven't looked on the controller before. What can you do with a touchpad and one button today?



It isn't, the round bit is a 16 direction d-pad, and the touch pad might well be one, but originally it was a phone style number pad, where you would slide an overlay in that showed what the buttons do.



Foxi4 said:


> There are no limitations in 2D graphics



Hardware-wise yes there are. A textured polygon is not the same as 2d hardware.


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## Deleted User (Oct 21, 2018)

I was thinking of learning to make a 2d platformer, perhaps I should make one for this.


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## Arras (Oct 21, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> It isn't, the round bit is a 16 direction d-pad, and the touch pad might well be one, but originally it was a phone style number pad, where you would slide an overlay in that showed what the buttons do.
> 
> 
> 
> Hardware-wise yes there are. A textured polygon is not the same as 2d hardware.


But when you can push millions of textured 2d polygons, what's the practical difference?


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## Reploid (Oct 21, 2018)

3D would be more bold


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## smf (Oct 21, 2018)

Arras said:


> That's almost always a software thing though, not hardware. I have absolutely no idea what they mean with that graphics comment.



I assume they mean it has an 8k video output, but using a cheap gpu with weaker 3d.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 21, 2018)

spinal_cord said:


> It isn't, the round bit is a 16 direction d-pad, and the touch pad might well be one, but originally it was a phone style number pad, where you would slide an overlay in that showed what the buttons do.
> 
> Hardware-wise yes there are. A textured polygon is not the same as 2d hardware.


It sure is to the human eye. There's a reason why we've abandoned tile maps - there's absolutely no point in using tiles when we have an abundance of memory available. The only reason why "2D graphics" used that model in the past was to squeeze more complex graphics onto the screen in a smaller memory footprint. Nowadays you can feasibly address every single individual pixel on the screen *and* have loads of memory left to spare, in the past we had to use tiles and palettes, effectively restricting what could be displayed. Of course displaying something in this way would be silly since just plopping your pseudo-sprite onto a quad is a zillion times easier and makes transformations seamless. I also vehemently disagree with the idea that 2D is inherently different than 3D - everything you display on a screen ever is 2D, it's virtual space displayed on a 2D pixel matrix. It makes zero difference to the eye, one method is simply better than the other. If you can think of a possible limitation of 2D graphics on a modern machine, do tell what it is and where's the demand for it. As far as I'm concerned, you can feasibly plop a pseudo-sprite on a model of any desired complexity, transform it however you want, apply any effects you want, resize at will, the world is your oyster. There's no "better 2D" over the horizon, there's nothing to improve.


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## Deleted User (Oct 21, 2018)

This isn't the 90's anymore, outrageous claims that probably aren't true definitely won't fly these days and they'll most definitely be called out on it.

If it does end up being true, well then I guess they're fucking revolutionaries in the console industry.


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## Vieela (Oct 21, 2018)

By the time this releases it will probably already become depracated by the PS5... It's not a really good idea to compare it like that for now. Plus, "best 2D graphics"? how would this work? Isn't it quite easy to pull off really good looking 2D imagery?


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## Bladexdsl (Oct 21, 2018)

LMAO they can keep their shitty 2d graphics this thing is gonna bomb harder than the ouya!


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## DarkOrb (Oct 21, 2018)

No way that this is no joke! It has to be a joke. The whole damn article reads like an april 1st joke!


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## smf (Oct 21, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The only reason why "2D graphics" used that model in the past was to squeeze more complex graphics onto the screen in a smaller memory footprint.



There is also the cpu time required to move those pixels round. If memory was cheap in the 1980's then the NES would still have used tilemaps, because the 6502 was too slow to move all those pixels around itself. This console will almost certainly have some form of GPU to accelerate drawing.



Foxi4 said:


> There's no "better 2D" over the horizon, there's nothing to improve.



The output resolution can always be improved. Neither the X1 or PS4 can output greater than 4k.

For the cost the cpu and gpu are obviously going to be less capable, but outputting 8k with accelerated 2d could be what they mean as better. They may even have gone back to multiple layers and hardware sprites.

Don't forget it's not going to come out for another 2 years & they are saying it's better than consoles that will probably have been replaced by the time it comes out.


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## Song of storms (Oct 21, 2018)

Imagine a "Where's Waldo?" videogame in 4K!


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## Foxi4 (Oct 21, 2018)

smf said:


> There is also the cpu time required to move those pixels round. If memory was cheap in the 1980's then the NES would still have used tilemaps, because the 6502 was too slow to move all those pixels around itself. This console will almost certainly have some form of GPU to accelerate drawing.


Surely you're not going to make that argument in 2018, right? Moving an image on X/Y planes is not a huge feat anymore. We're not talking about the NES, a lot can change in a couple of decades.


> The output resolution can always be improved. Neither the X1 or PS4 can output greater than 4k.


Yeah, and neither do most modern displays. If resolution is your only proposed improvement, that's not a 2D-specific issue, it's a matter of graphical standards. 8K is around the corner, but talk about diminishing returns. I can't wait to play some retro-styled indie 2D game on a hipster console, now in 8K. Y'know what would've made Undertale a much better game? If it ran at 8K. Obviously there are *some* limitations out there, but they're technological, not specifically 2D-related.


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## smf (Oct 21, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Surely you're not going to make that argument in 2018, right?



I was pointing out that it wasn't the only reason and the processing ability was also important.



Foxi4 said:


> Moving an image on X/Y planes is not a huge feat anymore.



It depends on how much processing power you have and how many layers of parallax scrolling and how many sprites you have on screen.



Foxi4 said:


> If resolution is your only proposed improvement, that's not a 2D-specific issue, it's a matter of graphical standards.



How is it not a 2D specific issue? If you have a console that can do 2d at 8k, but not 3d at all & a console that can do 2d & 3d but only at 4k. Then the 8k console has better 2d than the 4k console. You might think it's not worth having the 8k console, because you want 3d. But they couldn't honestly claim it had better graphics, without putting the caveat that it only applied to 2d.

Of course it depends on what they mean by better and this thing isn't out for another 2 years. Maybe they've gone back to sprites and tile maps and by better they mean easier to program. Until we know more it's just conjecture.

I'm disagreeing with the "there is no way that what they are saying makes any sense" argument, because there are ways that what they are saying makes sense.

They are targeting parents who don't want their kids to play violent games, they aren't targeting us.


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## The Catboy (Oct 21, 2018)

A lot of bold and stupid calms being made lately. First Huawei with their extremely bold and stupid claim that their phone was better than the Switch, only to be followed by this bold and extremely stupid claim.


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## DarthDub (Oct 21, 2018)

What if I told you that you can make beautiful 2D games in Unity already? What a joke.


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## mightymuffy (Oct 21, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There are no limitations in 2D graphics, there are zero devs in existence who don't have enough resources for their 2D games.


Oh dear, that went WAAAY over your head didn't it...

Quality read, gave me a good laugh ...almost made me interested in buying one hehe!


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## Pluupy (Oct 21, 2018)

Bladexdsl said:


> LMAO they can keep their shitty 2d graphics this thing is gonna bomb harder than the ouya!


I dont know about _that_ hard... This is at least being made by competent people.


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## froggestspirit (Oct 21, 2018)

"Finally! no more tactile buttons on my controller!"-No one ever


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## smf (Oct 21, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> What if I told you that you can make beautiful 2D games in Unity already? What a joke.



You're not telling anyone anything they don't already know. It also doesn't say anything about their claim.

All they've said is that they are releasing a system in two years time and it's 3d won't be as good as the ps4 or x1 but it's 2d will be better. Meanwhile the PS5 will be out with better 2d and 3d support. 

How good Unity is on the PS4 is irrelevant.


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 21, 2018)

smf said:


> How good Unity is on the PS4 is irrelevant.


This console that shares similar ideas as the Ouya, but making a stronger emphasis on production of cheap shovelware is irrelevant.


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## Osha (Oct 21, 2018)

ITT: People don't understand jokes.


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## Spoda (Oct 21, 2018)

They must have forgotten that the PS4/Xbox One was released in 2013. It darn right BETTER have better 2d graphics than the PS4/Xbox One, especially in 2020. 

Regardless of that, I think this company is trying to create hype by using PS4/Xbox One's name.


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## osaka35 (Oct 21, 2018)

I was assuming they meant it tongue-and-cheek, but. well. sure, bring it on intellivision.


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## Arras (Oct 21, 2018)

smf said:


> I was pointing out that it wasn't the only reason and the processing ability was also important.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But even if they hypothetically add 8K output, that still makes no sense. Next to no displays support it, and most 2D games are upscaled for higher resolutions anyway, even on modern consoles, usually because of art style decisions. Hell, imagine a fully animated true 8K 2D game - the amount of space you need to store the sprites alone and the work to create sprites that high resolution would be insane.


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## Rabbid4240 (Oct 21, 2018)

Uh huh. Sure.


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## CrossOut (Oct 21, 2018)

If this turns out to be real lets hope that it doesn't turn out to be a sham like The Coleco Chameleon was haha.


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## hippy dave (Oct 21, 2018)

2D games are still the best, so this sounds great!


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## jumpman17 (Oct 21, 2018)

So...I should be expecting all games to look better than Cuphead and Shantae: 1/2 Genie Hero then...that's what your telling us right Intellivision?

Talk about setting your hype level to stupid and setting yourself up for failure.


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 21, 2018)

jumpman17 said:


> So...I should be expecting all games to look better than Cuphead and Shantae: 1/2 Genie Hero then...that's what your telling us right Intellivision?
> 
> Talk about setting your hype level to stupid and setting yourself up for failure.


But Noes!
Shantae uses 3D backgrounds and bosses, and 3D in this console is forbidden and prosecuted, offending developers will be beheaded in the guillotine!
The same applies for anybody charging more than $8 for a game or putting any content that would be considered above E10+, and we all know Cuphead doesn't meet that criterium.

Expect some beautiful, parallax scrolled and sprite galore Flappy Bird clones!


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## smf (Oct 21, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> This console that shares similar ideas as the Ouya, but making a stronger emphasis on production of cheap shovelware is irrelevant.



And we didn't think the joke presidential candidate would be elected either.

Companies build products, people decide whether to buy them or not.

The only thing I'd question is why they are telling us about it 2 years before it's going to be on sale.



jumpman17 said:


> So...I should be expecting all games to look better than Cuphead and Shantae: 1/2 Genie Hero then...that's what your telling us right Intellivision?



No that isn't what they have said.


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 21, 2018)

smf said:


> And we didn't think the joke presidential candidate would be elected either.
> 
> Companies build products, people decide whether to buy them or not.
> 
> The only thing I'd question is why they are telling us about it 2 years before it's going to be on sale.


Good point.
It doesn't produce any kind of hype in me anyway, what could mean I am not part of the target market, or that the interested target market doesn't really exist.
For me it only means that I don't have any hope in it, specially due to way they are marketing it with big words against the competition, all while putting from the start some conditions (like very budget price limitations to software and E10+ limitation), that would lead IMHO to a shovelware style of cheap games.


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## orangy57 (Oct 21, 2018)

Pulling a classic intellivision move, weird asl controllers


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## Deleted User (Oct 21, 2018)

That's a bizarre claim if I ever heard one. It might've worked in the 90s, where 3D was in its infancy and systems like the Neo Geo and CPS2 could handle more frames of animation in-memory than, say, the PS1. However, it's 2018, and unless this system is sporting a ridiculous amount of VRAM (which it most definitely isn't), they're all just talking out of their asses.


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## Jayro (Oct 21, 2018)

"Better 2D graphics"

That's so fucking cringe to read. Like, I could say that Crayola makes the best 2D colors, or that calendars have tell best 2D time. Anyone else think this article sounds stupid as hell?





Song of storms said:


> With that claim, they probably meant 2D graphics with a lot of details. Something that technically wasn't that much explored, as indie devs will usually play with big sprite tiles. Take Stardew Valley, for example. A beautiful game but you just know that it could have been better.
> 
> The current gen consoles have been out for enough time to draw conclusions about the state of 2D sprites in the gaming industry and I agree with them. Let's hope that they can actually deliver. I feel like developers have gone the extra mile with 3D models improvements but have never touched 2D games' graphics complexity with that same passion again. But that's not up to Intellivision, rather to the developers that will choose to develop on this system. What's stopping from developers to simply put the same portings on their console?
> 
> If the project won't be canceled, it will be interesting.


Then I expect 2D games with 8K graphics resolution and 1:1 pixel detail. Not this "16-bit graphics scaled to fit 1080p" crap.


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## Ericthegreat (Oct 21, 2018)

Chary said:


> View attachment 147235
> View attachment 147236 View attachment 147237​
> Earlier this year, we were teased at the existence of an upcoming Intellivision-based retro throwback system, and five months later, more information about the curious piece of hardware have been unveiled. This system now sports the name of the Intellivision Amico, with a few notable features and details. Firstly, the Amico will retail anywhere in the range of $149 to $179 dollars, when it launches two years from now, in 2020. A bold claim also states that the power within the system will offer "the most advanced 2D sprite-based graphics the world has ever seen", also putting above what either the PlayStation 4 or Xbox One, or according to them, a 'PlayStation 5' could ever reasonably output in terms of 2D visuals. Games for the system are set to have prices from $3 to $8 apiece, with the available titles only being 2D-based games and capped at most at an E10+ rating due to the heavy "family focus" the system has. Its controllers are small, with a touchscreen built into them, while the system itself will have WiFi features, as well as an HDMI port. Games both old and new will be coming to the Amico, and will have updated visuals, multiplayer, and achievements. Development kits are due out in Summer 2019.


I am interested, if it brings cool new retro games, I might buy it.


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 21, 2018)

Ericthegreat said:


> I am interested, if it brings cool new retro games, I might buy it.


But why would it?
Current gen consoles are much more likely places for quality retro games to occur.

Here they are advertising "very low budget games" (<$8) "targeted at e10+ or below". To me it seems like a recipe for bad quality software made on a hurry with the minimal costs. I don't think this is a good incentive for retro game developers to put any effort on making good quality retro games that have to sell for some pennies.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Oct 21, 2018)

This is a hard no from me. I hope they don't blame the consumers for this when it fails.


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## eyeliner (Oct 21, 2018)

The price tag and the limitation on age rating for the gameware  is like someone shooting their testicles in order to reproduce.

It barely makes sense. My daughter of 4 is less interested in Wii gaming (or any other peripheral devices) than the Switch.
If this was something akin to the Switch, I could see some potential.
If this is supposed to rekindle Intellivision's history in videogames, it won't go far. First, Intellivision games are ancient, and barely worthy to revisit.
The age restriction will kill:
Roguelikes
Shoot-em-ups
Fighting games.

So it will house:
Match 3 games
Find hidden objects games
Puzzle games

Yes, success awaits.

I hope it is hackable.


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## Heran Bago (Oct 21, 2018)

lmfao intellivision looking to recreate their late 80s success.


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## haxan (Oct 21, 2018)

sounds like a great place for indie games to start but the idea for a developer to invest in a new system that the market doesn't have much of an eye on is very risky. I do hope that it does take off.


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## smf (Oct 21, 2018)

Arras said:


> But even if they hypothetically add 8K output, that still makes no sense. Next to no displays support it, and most 2D games are upscaled for higher resolutions anyway, even on modern consoles, usually because of art style decisions. Hell, imagine a fully animated true 8K 2D game - the amount of space you need to store the sprites alone and the work to create sprites that high resolution would be insane.



They are launching this in 2 years time, so 8k will have advanced. I'm not saying for sure it has 8k, but that would be better.

It wouldn't be hard to make 2d hardware better than ps4 or x1 because they are framebuffer based, while from the description it's probably just modern 2d hardware with lots of sprites. Maybe it's like neogeo where pretty much everything is a sprite. Fill rate will be irrelevant, because you aren't filling anything.

Rather than having to waste time building up scenes in open gl, you might just poke x,y coordinates in a sprite and point it at an area of ram, set priority etc. Whether any games will take advantage of all the power or not is another matter.

The "no ports" could be because the hardware is so different that it will be impossible to port anything to it.

The term "better" might not mean what you think it does.



sarkwalvein said:


> Good point.
> It doesn't produce any kind of hype in me anyway, what could mean I am not part of the target market, or that the interested target market doesn't really exist.
> For me it only means that I don't have any hope in it, specially due to way they are marketing it with big words against the competition, all while putting from the start some conditions (like very budget price limitations to software and E10+ limitation), that would lead IMHO to a shovelware style of cheap games.



I'm sure there are plenty of parents in the US who want their children to be playing wholesome games. Of course there are also parents who want their children to learn how to shoot people as soon as they can hold a gun.



Heran Bago said:


> lmfao intellivision looking to recreate their late 80s success.



How is this any different to nintendo, sony etc trying to recreate their success each time they bring out a new product?

It sounds like a nice challenge to write an emulator for it anyway.


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## wiewiec (Oct 21, 2018)

I think it could compete with etch-a-sketch with this age target


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## Deleted User (Oct 21, 2018)

"with the available titles only being 2D-based games and capped at most at an E10+ rating "

LOL this thing is going to fail so hard cant wait to see it crash and burn


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## Foxi4 (Oct 21, 2018)

mightymuffy said:


> Oh dear, that went WAAAY over your head didn't it...
> 
> Quality read, gave me a good laugh ...almost made me interested in buying one hehe!


I have to take the statement at face value because it's a commercial release, not a comedy club routine.



smf said:


> I was pointing out that it wasn't the only reason and the processing ability was also important.
> 
> It depends on how much processing power you have and how many layers of parallax scrolling and how many sprites you have on screen.
> 
> ...


Please name a proposed GPU that would prioritise 2D over 3D and would be better at it than VEGA, the most obvious choice for the PS5. If you're telling me that this dead brand will specifically work on a custom GPU with custom 2D hardware that surpasses what AMD can do on their chips already, I'm just going to giggle. As for the whole "kids" argument, you know what else parents won't give to their children? 4K plus displays that cost thousands of dollars.


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## tbb043 (Oct 21, 2018)

Naendow said:


> I haven't looked on the controller before. What can you do with a touchpad and one button today?



Touchpad? On Intellivision? that would be weird. The original was buttons for 0-9 and two more, but overlays to "change" them to whatever the game wanted them for. Then on the sides, TWO buttons (on each side) not one. And the control disc, of course, but I don't think anyone liked that....


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## Pickle_Rick (Oct 22, 2018)

Sounds interesting. But how does one render "better 2D graphics"? I mean the XB1 has Cuphead and that's literal cell animation. All three consoles have Sonic Mania. Which looks great and is completely 100% software rendered too. I don't get the claim.


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## GamerzHell9137 (Oct 22, 2018)

Better 2D than PS4Bone? What? PS4Bone isn't limited to 2D layers or anything so i have no idea what they mean with "better 2D games". Do they have their own Engine or something that's coming with the dev units?
The only way to make better 2D on the console is if the system was more powerful than PS4Bone.


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## Burlsol (Oct 22, 2018)

Naendow said:


> I haven't looked on the controller before. What can you do with a touchpad and one button today?


Depending on the size and number of detected inputs per region, a touchpad can act as a full controller in some cases. Playing PSX games on your phone using the touchscreen for most inputs is something you can already do. While this might not be conducive to hardcore gaming needing split second complex inputs, it does function reasonably well for most applications.


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## XDel (Oct 22, 2018)

Better than an Nvidia card from the distant future!!!


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## DarkCoffe64 (Oct 22, 2018)

I guess that statement could be true, I mean, are there 2d games on modern consoles anymore? :v
If we talk triple A games, that is.


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## Captain_N (Oct 22, 2018)

They did not claim it has better 2d graphics then a snes....


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## marazzmatika (Oct 22, 2018)

That is a bit dumb. Saying about best sprites is just feels not right.


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## Enryx25 (Oct 22, 2018)

So games like Cuphead, Sonic Mania and Octopath Traveler?


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## medoli900 (Oct 22, 2018)

Is this real life? Are we in Game Dev Tycoon all of a sudden? This sounds just like the new console announcement that you'd find in Game Dev Tycoon.


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## WhiteMaze (Oct 22, 2018)

Song of storms said:


> With that claim, they probably meant 2D graphics with a lot of details. Something that technically wasn't that much explored, as indie devs will usually play with big sprite tiles. Take Stardew Valley, for example. A beautiful game but you just know that it could have been better.
> 
> The current gen consoles have been out for enough time to draw conclusions about the state of 2D sprites in the gaming industry and I agree with them. Let's hope that they can actually deliver. I feel like developers have gone the extra mile with 3D models improvements but have never touched 2D games' graphics complexity with that same passion again. But that's not up to Intellivision, rather to the developers that will choose to develop on this system. What's stopping from developers to simply put the same portings on their console?
> 
> If the project won't be canceled, it will be interesting.



Exactly. Which is precisely why its hilarious. 

Saying the Intellivision Amico has better* 2D graphics* than the Xbox One or the PS4, is the same as saying that a NES or a Master System have better *8-bit graphics* than a PS4 or Xbox One.


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## spinal_cord (Oct 22, 2018)

Arras said:


> But when you can push millions of textured 2d polygons, what's the practical difference?



To the player, very little. To the coder, lots. 3D space doesn't measure anything in pixels, 2D space does, meaning in 3D space it is much harder to line up multiple textures to create a perfect map, which is how 2D games work. With 2D based consoles, the background gfx and sprites are handled by hardware, the coder usually just needs to tell the hardware where in memory the data is held and the hardware does the rest, tiles will be perfectly lined up with no gaps etc and there are far less RAM and CPU requirements. Just because a system has an abundance of horse power, doesn't mean you should waste it.
If you look at some 3D games, the gfx glitches reveal how difficult it is to line up a few poly's next to each other, you will see a line, sometimes less than a pixel wide between the textures. You can't get that in 2D.

In summary, 2D games look and work far better on specifically designed 2D hardware than they do on 3D hardware.



Enryx25 said:


> Octopath Traveler



Octopath is very visibly 3D, the textures do not resize evenly and they have horrible artefacts when moving.


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## smf (Oct 22, 2018)

WhiteMaze said:


> Saying the Intellivision Amico has better* 2D graphics* than the Xbox One or the PS4, is the same as saying that a NES or a Master System have better *8-bit graphics* than a PS4 or Xbox One.



But they don't, you're letting your ROLFLMAO cloud your logic.

Maybe, just maybe, this does have better 2d graphics than a PS4/X1 but worse 3d graphics.

How exactly would you expect them to sell you that?

"Hey look at our new console, it has worse 3d graphics than the PS4 or X1"?

or do you think, they would do what anyone with half a brain would say and make the claim they did?

If you can't comprehend that it's possible to have better 2d than PS4 or X1 then you have no idea about progress. You know the PS5 will have better 2D than the PS4 right?

Also it was common in the PS1 vs Saturn days to say that the PS1 was better at 3d and the Saturn was better at 2d. So it's not like they've come up with a new way of explaining things.



Pickle_Rick said:


> All three consoles have Sonic Mania. Which looks great and is completely 100% software rendered too. I don't get the claim.



Maybe they just mean you don't have to software render it? Which from a developer point of view could be classed as better. We don't know enough about what they actually mean, to be able to work out whether what they claim is true.


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## Lumstar (Oct 22, 2018)

Maybe developers will be more keen on pushing 2D games further with an SDK and system environment tailor made for it.


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## DarkIrata (Oct 22, 2018)

The moment when people are too twisted to understand a marketing joke.. (i mean the *boldly claims that it'll have better 2D graphics than the PS4 or XB1 *part~)


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## wiewiec (Oct 22, 2018)

DarkIrata said:


> The moment when people are too twisted to understand a marketing joke..



Aha, so dev kits are not for devs wanna cash up to 10$ per game? Or I not get the joke :|


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 22, 2018)

DarkIrata said:


> The moment when people are too twisted to understand a marketing joke..


That's actually the pose the investors of the company may be making after seeing what a disastrous PR was this type of advertising.
I guess PR people will be fired. If they even exist in this "company".


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## smf (Oct 22, 2018)

DarkIrata said:


> The moment when people are too twisted to understand a marketing joke..



Don't you have to be twisted to think it is a marketing joke?

There are quite a few people excited about this who think that 3d took off too early.

It could end up being the spiritual successor to the neogeo and saturn, a real 2d sprite power house.


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## DarkIrata (Oct 22, 2018)

wiewiec said:


> Aha, so dev kits are not for devs wanna cash up to 10$ per game? Or I not get the joke :|





sarkwalvein said:


> That's actually the pose the investors of the company may be making after seeing what a disastrous PR was this type of advertising.
> I guess PR people will be fired. If they even exist in this "company".





smf said:


> Don't you have to be twisted to think it is a marketing joke?
> 
> There are quite a few people excited about this who think that 3d took off too early.
> 
> It could end up being the spiritual successor to the neogeo and saturn, a real 2d sprite power house.



Ok, my mistake to not specify that i mean the "*boldly claims that it'll have better 2D graphics than the PS4 or XB1*" part. Oh boi..


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## BlackWizzard17 (Oct 22, 2018)

That's cool an all but can it outperform 2d graphics better than the sega Saturn? No? Check and mate.


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## Naster (Oct 22, 2018)

What's this a OUYA 2?


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## Osha (Oct 22, 2018)

DarkIrata said:


> The moment when people are too twisted to understand a marketing joke.. (i mean the *boldly claims that it'll have better 2D graphics than the PS4 or XB1 *part~)


Don't bother, they're too busy circlejerking. GBAtemp is insanely cynical, and it's to a fault.


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## wiewiec (Oct 22, 2018)

Naster said:


> What's this a OUYA 2?


For me is is, but OUYA not give restrictions what genre games it must have - here with Amico there will be no ports (oh yeah all exclusives) but restricted to games for kids... so even not clone of street fighter game.

If I have kids better is to buy Android tablet than this crap


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## olixus (Oct 22, 2018)

i think it looks more like a gimmick than. however it should be interesting if sales go well.


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## smf (Oct 22, 2018)

DarkIrata said:


> Ok, my mistake to not specify that i mean the "*boldly claims that it'll have better 2D graphics than the PS4 or XB1*" part. Oh boi..



I knew what you meant, you have to be twisted to think that is a joke.



BlackWizzard17 said:


> That's cool an all but can it outperform 2d graphics better than the sega Saturn? No? Check and mate.



A PS4 can do better 2d graphics than a Saturn. Why don't you think it's possible for a console that isn't going to be out for another two years to beat them both?



wiewiec said:


> If I have kids better is to buy Android tablet than this crap



I reckon we'll move away from giving kids tablets. In the old days you had one tv and we couldn't play all day because we weren't allowed to monopolise the tv. Some idiot then thought the best idea would be to let kids use tablets 24 hours a day.


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## AdenTheThird (Oct 22, 2018)

curioser and curioser...


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## wiewiec (Oct 22, 2018)

smf said:


> I knew what you meant, you have to be twisted to think that is a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said that i think that kid be more enjoyed using tablet than this console. Restricting genres by age also isn’t great marketing idea


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## smf (Oct 22, 2018)

wiewiec said:


> I said that i think that kid be more enjoyed using tablet than this console.



Or maybe they'd enjoy crystal meth more, but what they enjoy more is irrelevant as they aren't independently wealthy.



wiewiec said:


> Restricting genres by age also isn’t great marketing idea



It seems to work well for children's cartoons, which I assume you also don't watch.


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## wiewiec (Oct 22, 2018)

smf said:


> Or maybe they'd enjoy crystal meth more, but what they enjoy more is irrelevant as they aren't independently wealthy.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to work well for children's cartoons, which I assume you also don't watch.



Their target is wrong, wii was underrated for some time by gamers as it was marketed as for family. But here, target as for family, but shuts door as it states that there will not be violence in their games...


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## WhiteMaze (Oct 22, 2018)

smf said:


> But they don't, you're letting your ROLFLMAO cloud your logic.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, this does have better 2d graphics than a PS4/X1 but worse 3d graphics.
> 
> ...



The Saturn being better than the PS1 when it comes to 2D graphics, can be seen as literally a myth. It all depends on what you mean and what your wording is. 

The Saturn was definitely known to be harder to develop for in 3D, and as far as my knowledge leads me, it was due to the Saturn working only with certain polygons in a 3 dimensional environment. So if you want to call the PS1 superior due to that, it's your choice.

At the end of the day, you can have 2 completely separate systems, with one of them having a faster processor, and better specs than the other, while having worse graphics than the less powerful system. And the opposite is also true.

So it all comes down to how much work is put in to each asset, especially when we talk about 2D graphics. In other words, this new console having better or worse 2D graphics, literally comes down to the amount of work put in developing those graphics and not so much in each systems specs..

So yes, I do think this claim is ridiculous. It doesn't matter what horsepower you got in there if you don't work your graphics enough in modelling/developing of a game. 2D is still 2D, and 8-bit is still 8-bit. How you work them is what defines better or worse graphics ..


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## wiewiec (Oct 22, 2018)

WhiteMaze said:


> The Saturn being better than the PS1 when it comes to 2D graphics, can be seen as literally a myth. It all depends on what you mean and what your wording is.
> 
> The Saturn was definitely known to be harder to develop for in 3D, and as far as my knowledge leads me, it was due to the Saturn working only with certain polygons in a 3 dimensional environment. So if you want to call the PS1 superior due to that, it's your choice.
> 
> ...



Thant why now often we have 2.5D games than for me is far superior to pure 2d.


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## BlackWizzard17 (Oct 22, 2018)

smf said:


> A PS4 can do better 2d graphics than a Saturn. Why don't you think it's possible for a console that isn't going to be out for another two years to beat them both?


Issa joke, oh course it's entirely possible but really not necessary.


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## DSAndi (Oct 22, 2018)

Well the Intellivision from the past is more for older people that are 45+.
I dont really get what this new thing should be. The Controllers look similar to the old ones. 16 dircetions to go, but then again analoge sticks can do the same or not ?

EWhat games will it offer ? The old intellivision ones ? New 2D games ?
Then the price, well i got thouse flashback controllers and USB Adapters for em. I can use a raspberry pi, or a PC and thouse controllers and have great emulation of the intellivision.

For what i need this Amico ?


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## smf (Oct 22, 2018)

WhiteMaze said:


> The Saturn being better than the PS1 when it comes to 2D graphics, can be seen as literally a myth. It all depends on what you mean and what your wording is.



It's not a myth. It doesn't depend on what you mean.

Saturn has tile maps in hardware, PS1 has to use the GPU to render it.

You can do it, but Saturn does it better. For 3d the Saturn is terrible though.

You can do it, but PS1 does it better.


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## Pickle_Rick (Oct 22, 2018)

smf said:


> Maybe they just mean you don't have to software render it? Which from a developer point of view could be classed as better. We don't know enough about what they actually mean, to be able to work out whether what they claim is true.


Not really, the game engine will take care of that. It's not like there aren't a ton of 2D game engines (or plugins for 3D ones) that make working with 2D on 3D hardware easy as hell. Just as easy as dedicated 2D hardware. (Probably even easier because the engines probably have better tools.)


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Oct 23, 2018)

Looks like two fuckin' iPods on a dock station. Another 'classic' console, eh.

SEGA started the trend but it was Nintendo that made it popular and now Nintendo gets all the fame for being 'the first' and whatever small figures are released by Sony or etc they're 'amiibo ripoffs'. Nintendo fanboys. lol


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## HEADBOY (Oct 23, 2018)

This ought to be interesting, I wonder if the OS is going to be Linux based so modern game engines and frameworks can work on it without much effort? Or will it be based off of AOSP?


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Oct 23, 2018)

awesomehero said:


> This ought to be interesting, I wonder if the OS is going to be Linux based so modern game engines and frameworks can work on it without much effort? Or will it be based off of AOSP?


Possibly.

Amazon uses the Fire OS but in reality it's just the Android OS with added intrusive ads and a shitty home launcher. Thankfully you can customize it.


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## smf (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickle_Rick said:


> Not really, the game engine will take care of that. It's not like there aren't a ton of 2D game engines (or plugins for 3D ones) that make working with 2D on 3D hardware easy as hell.



Right, layers upon layers of abstraction for kiddy programmers which wastes processing resources.



awesomehero said:


> This ought to be interesting, I wonder if the OS is going to be Linux based so modern game engines and frameworks can work on it without much effort? Or will it be based off of AOSP?



Or maybe it's based off something else. If it's Linux or Android based and can run existing tools, then it will be hugely boring & will fail hard. I'd rather something innovative & you can't get that going down the boring out of date Linux route.


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## HEADBOY (Oct 23, 2018)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Possibly.
> 
> Amazon uses the Fire OS but in reality it's just the Android OS with added intrusive ads and a shitty home launcher. Thankfully you can customize it.





smf said:


> Right, layers upon layers of abstraction for kiddy programmers which wastes processing resources.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe it's based off something else. If it's Linux or Android based and can run existing tools, then it will be hugely boring & will fail hard. I'd rather something innovative & you can't get that going down the boring out of date Linux route.



You make a good point, the only way I can see developers bother to make games if they make something completely different is if they either make a toolset like Microsoft did with XNA(Does anyone remember that?), or have popular middleware like Unity, Unreal Engine and Game Maker develop a special version for their platform (not too different from Unity for Wii U in hindsight).


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## olixus (Oct 23, 2018)

i do think it is a lot of bullshit 2d graphics are basically just 2d


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## SonicfanCEMUTesting (Oct 23, 2018)

Looks like a bootleg.


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## smf (Oct 23, 2018)

awesomehero said:


> You make a good point, the only way I can see developers bother to make games if they make something completely different is if they either make a toolset like Microsoft did with XNA(Does anyone remember that?), or have popular middleware like Unity, Unreal Engine and Game Maker develop a special version for their platform (not too different from Unity for Wii U in hindsight).



The spectrum next says high. https://www.specnext.com/category/games_apps/

There aren't as many games in development for it as you would want, but it's not exactly in the same league.



XxBLUExX said:


> i do think it is a lot of bullshit 2d graphics are basically just 2d



Right, not 3d. So Intellivision Amico doesn't have as good a 3d graphics as the PS4 or X1. But the PS4 and X1 aren't as good at 2d graphics as they could be, because they use 3d hardware to do it.

Think of it like using a CPU to software render 3d, you can do it but it's not as good as something that was designed for the job. Throughout history there are examples of dedicated hardware being used to create better solutions. When the Amiga blitter was being designed there had only been a truck sized version that someone had designed for a Sun workstation, everyone else was using software. It was revolutionary for it's time.


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## Pickle_Rick (Oct 23, 2018)

smf said:


> Right, layers upon layers of abstraction for kiddy programmers which wastes processing resources.


Who the fuck still bothers to make games against the bare metal? This isn't the 80s-90s where every drop of performance matters. 2D games aren't the most resource intensive anyway. Especially if you use a game engine with GPU acceleration (which is most of them).


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## smf (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickle_Rick said:


> Who the fuck still bothers to make games against the bare metal? This isn't the 80s-90s where every drop of performance matters.



Why shouldn't every drop of performance matter? Why waste performance that you could use to make a better game?

Everyone would write games against the bare metal if you were targeting a single platform and it was easy enough.

Who the fuck wants to deal with the hell of all those shitty layers of graphics libraries? Maybe the youngsters who don't know any better.


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 23, 2018)

smf said:


> Why shouldn't every drop of performance matter? Why waste performance that you could use to make a better game?


Game developers never write against the bare metal nowadays because they want to be able to use standard game engines, reduce costs on engine development and reassign resources to game development, and to increase the reach to multiple platforms in order to obtain enough profit to assure your investment.


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## smf (Oct 24, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> Game developers never write against the bare metal nowadays because they want to be able to use standard game engines



They use standard game engines because writing all of the code to drive direct3d/ogl is insane. If you can cut out that insanity, then you wouldn't use a standard game engine.


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## sarkwalvein (Oct 24, 2018)

smf said:


> They use standard game engines because writing all of the code to drive direct3d/ogl is insane. If you can cut out that insanity, then you wouldn't use a game engine.


But then your game won't be easy to port to other platforms anymore, so you will lose quite some potential audience.


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## smf (Oct 24, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> But then your game won't be easy to port to other platforms anymore, so you will lose quite some potential audience.



But you are targeting a different audience on this platform and there is a no ports rule. Which could be because you can't port to it.

Although porting a game that directly hits hardware might not be that hard to port either. Porting software written in C from Saturn/PS1 era isn't that hard.


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## thedrev (Oct 24, 2018)

So they claims that for 2D only the Amico is more powerfull that the PS4... It seems that Intellivision did not learn from it's previous mistakes by making this claim. 
When they released the IntelliVision in 1980 they also said that it's more powerfull than the Atari 2600, which is true, but the system did not have good controllers and not good publisher supports. 
And also, how many power do you need to make a 2D game ? It really does not matter if you dev on a PS4 or PS3, (or PS2)


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## smf (Oct 26, 2018)

thedrev said:


> And also, how many power do you need to make a 2D game ? It really does not matter if you dev on a PS4 or PS3, (or PS2)



Well that is a different matter. You could buy a Range Rover or Lambourghini.

The Range Rover would be great offroad, but how often do people actually drive them off road?

The Lambourghini would be great round a track, but how many are ever taken round a track?

What they are saying is that it's a console for 2d games and you shouldn't be worried about slow down as it can cope with any 2d game that you've ever seen before. So it's not like those nes on a chip consoles.

We don't have much information about the specification, so it may be able to do sprite scaling. So games like outrun, space harrier etc. It kinda blurs the line of 2d vs 3d.

I do think they have a major cost problem.


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## Deleted User (May 2, 2019)

I like the idea of a console for modern 2D games. Was really disappointed Mighty Switch Force 2 didn't get a remaster for the Wii U port like the first, as it was my first 1080p 2D platformer and I was blown away by the HD sprite look.

But if I'm buying a 2D only console, then it has to be portable and no more than $100USD


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## Foxi4 (May 2, 2019)

Snugglevixen said:


> I like the idea of a console for modern 2D games. Was really disappointed Mighty Switch Force 2 didn't get a remaster for the Wii U port like the first, as it was my first 1080p 2D platformer and I was blown away by the HD sprite look.
> 
> But if I'm buying a 2D only console, then it has to be portable and no more than $100USD


The thread hasn't been active since October last year... Y'think it's dead, @Snugglevixen? Yeah, it's dead.


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## raxadian (May 5, 2019)

tech3475 said:


> At first I thought it said 'better 3D graphics'.
> 
> Makes me wonder what games they'll have to justify that claim and to entice sales for what feels like a niche product, particularly at that price and with the age restriction.
> 
> ...



Yeah, is like they forgot most fondly remembered 2D games were for the Sega Genesis and the SNES.


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## wiewiec (May 5, 2019)

raxadian said:


> Yeah, is like they forgot most fondly remembered 2D games were for the Sega Genesis and the SNES.



I could make sense, but this age restriction for games probably kill it...


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## raxadian (May 5, 2019)

wiewiec said:


> I could make sense, but this age restriction for games probably kill it...



Not to mention the shitty controller. If you want the golden era of 2D to be back then make a controller with at least four buttons, select, start and the directional gamepad.


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