# Is Nintendo running on brand loyalty?



## Slyakin (Nov 13, 2010)

I've been contemplating about Nintendo, and I think that they're slipping. Like Apple, they seem to just keep on running by making remakes and what seems to be "Plan B" games. Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing very well either; the Xbox and Playstation are slowly catching up.


Is Nintendo just milking fanboys of their money? It kinda feels like it.


----------



## emigre (Nov 13, 2010)

TBf every company look to milk their moronic fanboys.


----------



## Slyakin (Nov 13, 2010)

emigre said:
			
		

> TBf every company look to milk their moronic fanboys.


That's what I've been thinking.


----------



## monkat (Nov 13, 2010)

Well, yes and no.

Does the name Mario boost sales? Of course.
Do they make bad games just for money? Nah
Do they recycle games akin to guitar hero/rockband? Not that badly (look at how much changes between non-sequel games, 64->sunshine->galaxy)

They make excellent games, and their characters become known for it, and its an unwritten deal between us that they won't fuck us with a flagship title. Even wii music must have been fun for the "wii crowd"


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> They make excellent games, and their characters become known for it, *and its an unwritten deal between us that they won't fuck us with a flagship title.*


----------



## Slyakin (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> monkat said:
> 
> 
> 
> > They make excellent games, and their characters become known for it, *and its an unwritten deal between us that they won't fuck us with a flagship title.*


What I think is the worst Metroid ever.


----------



## pocchama1996 (Nov 13, 2010)

Slyakin said:
			
		

> Urza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What I think is the second best Metroid ever.


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

pocchama1996 said:
			
		

> What I think is the second best Metroid ever.








Who I think is a disgrace to gamers everywhere.


----------



## Slyakin (Nov 13, 2010)

pocchama1996 said:
			
		

> What I think is the second best Metroid ever.


Oh, you said _*best.*_


WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.


----------



## monkat (Nov 13, 2010)

I personally quite liked other m, while the prime series wasn't fun for me.

Personal preference and making bad games are different.


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Why's Other M get all the hate?
I think it's a rather fun game that adds a bit to the Metroid formula.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

pocchama1996 said:
			
		

> Slyakin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Why's Other M get all the hate?
> I think it's a rather fun game that adds a bit to the Metroid formula.
> Off the top of my head and in no particular order:
> 
> ...


Uh, Fusion and Zero Mission were awesome.


----------



## Presto99 (Nov 13, 2010)

The Prime games and Other M are totally different; it doesn't make one or the other bad. And you shouldn't nessacarily judge someone based on their post count. (See:me  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


----------



## monkat (Nov 13, 2010)

Juan - why is zero mission not a "true" metroid game, while the original is? Its a remake. A really good one, at that. Fusion wasn't bad either...


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 13, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> What I think is the worst Metroid ever. There's no any exploration, is only a mocking Sakamoto’s crazy statements ("maternal instincts", "so young and naive" trailer, etc.). So please, don't compare this shit with Super Metroid. I insist that Retro be assigned to make a 2D Metroid for the home console. It would be glorious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand Other M but how are Fusion and Zero Mission not "true Metroids"?
Zero Mission is a remake of the first Metroid.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well simply because the linearity imposed by Sakamoto to place certain presentations what make just losing the spirit of the original Metroid, making them lineal. The best thing would have been a completely revamped NES Metroid technically and solving the two major challenges to the game, but no, Sakamoto wanted place a story in the game although the animations are 4 or 5 that say nothing.


----------



## Slyakin (Nov 13, 2010)

You guys are getting off topic.


----------



## monkat (Nov 13, 2010)

No. You're getting off-topic.


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also, Juan, they are indeed true Metroid games. While not the best in the series, they're still loads better than what most kids today play.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Urza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You ignored "maternal instinct" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Oh. And Fusion sucks as Metroid for that, it's lineal, like all Sakamoto's Metroid except Super Metroid, developed between Yokoi: The TRUE creator.

Nintendo is doing it pretty well to destroy their franchises. DKC would be great because Retro make it.


----------



## Rydian (Nov 13, 2010)

Your MOM is off-topic.

Anyways...

When Nintendo DOES just re-release games, they're quite clear about it.  _"Sup guys, we're porting X from system X so new gamers can enjoy it and those of you with broken system X can enjoy it again.  Have fun."_

Other companies, not so much.  Hell, many of the Burnout games include tracks from the previous ones, to the point that somebody looking at a screenshot between an old and new one might not be able to tell the difference, even though it's supposed to be a new game it's often just an expansion pack.


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 13, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe because its a dumb thing to complain about?


----------



## Gullwing (Nov 13, 2010)

Slyakin said:
			
		

> I've been contemplating about Nintendo, and I think that they're slipping. Like Apple, they seem to just keep on running by making remakes and what seems to be "Plan B" games. Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing very well either; the Xbox and Playstation are slowly catching up.
> 
> 
> Is Nintendo just milking fanboys of their money? It kinda feels like it.


Catching up on present Wii sales doesnt mean that ps3 and 360 catch up on wiis' total sales... The wii has been extremely succesfull... You really cant say that nintendo is revising stuff... Just think of Super Mario Galaxy 2 , Twillight princess etc. Following a formula doesnt mean revision...


----------



## pocchama1996 (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> pocchama1996 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who I think is a disgrace to "true" gamers everywhere, in addition to being an elitist.

Anyways the reason I like this metroid so much is because the whole "samus has feelings!!!1" thing doesnt bother me I read the manga this IS how she is supposed to be. 
The gameplay was straight up fun thats all thats important to me in that aspect.
Cutscenes tied it all together nicely.
Don't think of this as a prime - 2d mix think of it as a start to a new kind of metroid.
theres
sidescroller
prime/fps
and now
overhead/otherm


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

But don't worry guys. Sakamoto is already planning Metroid: Other M 2, where instead of maternal insticts, we get to explore "love" between Samus Aran and Anthony Higgs (Remember him?). It will be a daring love story! This time, Samus Aran has to prove how tough she is to Anthony Higgs. She will do things like go through Norfair without her varia suit just to impress him! She’ll probably turn off her missiles in big boss fights just to make sure she gets his attention.

Oh, it’ll be great! Preorder today!


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

pocchama1996 said:
			
		

> Anyways the reason I like this metroid so much is because the whole "samus has feelings!!!1" thing doesnt bother me I read the manga this IS how she is supposed to be.
> The gameplay was straight up fun thats all thats important to me in that aspect.
> Cutscenes tied it all together nicely.
> Don't think of this as a prime - 2d mix think of it as a start to a new kind of metroid.
> ...


I'm going to agree with this. 
Few complained when Legend of Zelda went 3rd person, but when they gave it a chance it became perhaps the best move Nintendo made.

Is it really so wrong to want the same success with another series?


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> pocchama1996 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You seem to praise Retro Studios alot.


----------



## Fudge (Nov 13, 2010)

At this point, I say yes. They need something new and interesting. It seems they keep rehashing old ideas and franchises. A good example of brand loyalty is Kirby's Epic Yarn. It was great, but it didn't need Kirby. However, without the Kirby name, it probably wouldn't sell.


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Urza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, I obviously don't play games "just for voice acting and soundtrack." They are however essential components of a video game and are capable of adding to or taking away from the overall experience of the game, thus only two points on my list of nine (math is power). Normally I wouldn't care too much about the voice acting, however in Other M its very prevalent and you're forced to sit through cut-scene after cut-scene that are excruciatingly long (I actually solved the voice acting issue by playing the Japanese release with English subtitles).

This brings me to your comment on plot. Yes, previous Metroid games have little to no plot, _and that's why it wasn't a problem_. I wasn't forced to sit through two hours of cut-scenes that were completely inane and written by someone who clearly didn't have an understanding of good storytelling. Samus was a badass bounty hunter. Other M completely emasculates her, creating out of nothing "maternal instincts" (as Juanmatron pointed out, were silly), and subjecting her actions to the whim of an NPC who is clearly a douche. I won't even go into the concept of Samus having a _battle school love story_.

As for controls, why exactly should I be playing a modern video game with something that resembles the completely obsoleted design of a 15 year old console? And for that matter, why should there be a complete paradigm shift in the control scheme randomly throughout the game? They basically took the worst of the third-gen, the worst of the current-gen, and forced you to use them both at once. It makes no sense (like have to shake the control to spin and pick up objects in NSMB Wii, why?)

I hope however that now I've thoroughly explained my viewpoint, so you can stop jumping to silly conclusions.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

ZaeZae64 said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, real fans of a franchise hate when an "artist" change/destroy the scheme's gameplay.


----------



## Rydian (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Few complained when Legend of Zelda went 3rd person, but when they gave it a chance it became perhaps the best move Nintendo made.


Also Mario in an RPG series (actually two of them).


----------



## Goli (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Why's Other M get all the hate?
> I think it's a rather fun game that adds a bit to the Metroid formula.
> I think the same.
> We should be friends.
> QUOTE(fudgenuts64 @ Nov 13 2010, 06:51 PM) At this point, I say yes. They need something new and interesting. It seems they keep rehashing old ideas and franchises. A good example of brand loyalty is Kirby's Epic Yarn. It was great, but it didn't need Kirby. However, without the Kirby name, it probably wouldn't sell.


Xenoblade, The Last Story, Flingsmash, Art Style games, and countless others not new enough for you?
The fact is that Nintendo's new IPs don't sell us much as their old ones, that's why they keep releasing "rehashes" of their "old ideas and franchises".


----------



## monkat (Nov 13, 2010)

Rydian said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Three!

Paper mario, mari&luigi...

And...


Super marioooo r-p-g, it is the only one just for me!


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

fudgenuts64 said:
			
		

> At this point, I say yes. They need something new and interesting. It seems they keep rehashing old ideas and franchises. A good example of brand loyalty is Kirby's Epic Yarn. It was great, but it didn't need Kirby. However, without the Kirby name, it probably wouldn't sell.



The game is WAY too easy. The saccharine art style of the game will repel people (“This game looks like it was made for babies!”). And the Yarn Theme is just another ‘puzzle’ orientated theme with collect-a-thons that don’t have any place in a proper 2d side scroller. All this art style junk seems to me to fall under the “developers think they are geniuses” syndrome. When will developers realize their creativity doesn’t matter? It is the player’s creativity that matters. It isn’t the developers’ imagination that means anything. It is the player’s imagination that means everything. Games like Epic Yarn feel as if there is no gameplay skeleton and you are consuming cotton candy. It just turns to sugary vapor when you consume it. The original Kirby games were fun because you could get any power from any enemy. This made each playthrough different and surprising. But unfortunately, that would make Nintendo developers actually do some work. The Kirby-as-Yarn-Things transformations are more puzzle like in execution than arcade like.

How about Nintendo make a REAL Kirby game for once? Kirby has been doing so much strange and silly stuff that it would be a SURPRISE for a Kirby game to be normal.


----------



## pocchama1996 (Nov 13, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> fudgenuts64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually the art style is what drew me to the game, I personally love it and the music and that good happy feeling you get when you play the game.


----------



## Goli (Nov 13, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> fudgenuts64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love how you copy pasted what you just posted from another thread.
Anyways, on my previous post I didn't answer the thread's question.
I think they're not, if they were all their "loyal fans"'d buy everything they release, but that's not the case.
See commercial failures such as Xenoblade, Zangeki no Reginleiv, etc, etc.


----------



## Slyakin (Nov 13, 2010)

pocchama1996 said:
			
		

> Actually the art style is what drew me to the game, I personally love it and the music and that good happy feeling you get when you play the game.


But should art style be the only way to sell a game?


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 13, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, real fans of a franchise hate when an "artist" change/destroy the scheme's gameplay.


Despite the fact it barely did. People are just complaining Samus isn't an emotionless robot anymore.
Although I will agree her VA was bad. But I don't see what was so bad about the controls. I had little to no trouble with them.
Also "real fans" *cough elitist cough*


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Spoiler






			
				Urza said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, you made 8 points... not 9 (or at least this was the case when I quoted you unedited post).
Remember the original Resident Evil? Remember that voice acting? If the gaming community looked at games the way you do, we would have never had Resident Evil 2 and 3 (4 and 5, we could have done without in my opinion).

I will agree with you that a game's plot has a large impact on the player's views of the game, but it's not everything. SMB has a plot, and it's the most generic plot of all time, but gameplay makes up for it even though it's generic gameplay. 
Samus is a woman, deal with it. She has emotions and feelings, these things actually happen.

Gameplay elements from that time period are actually some of the best. Look at what we have today: FPS and ShovleWare. Other M's gameplay feels like a MASSIVE improvement to that.
Motion controls were likely added as a way to keep the Wii's gimmick present in the game. It's not even that big of an obstacle in the first place.



Adding to a series to make it feel new when you play it is NOT a bad thing.
Although, it would seem that way from the lineup of games we get from the Xbox...


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> The game is WAY too easy.


As far as I'm concerned, this statement is fundamentally flawed, as I don't consider Epic Yarn a "game."

It's more of a sensory experience. There's not really any challenge, you go through, press buttons, and watch the action unfold in front of you. The graphics and sound are gorgeous, brilliantly done, and despite myself I really enjoyed playing through.

I obviously enjoy actual Kirby games as well (Super Star is probably my favorite game of all time), but this was just a different kind of thing.


----------



## Slyakin (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I... never thought of it like that.

But if you say that, shouldn't it be in a digital format, not disc?


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed.


----------



## Rydian (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> It's more of a sensory experience.


Rez?


----------



## Goli (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what you do in every game.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Graphics and sound? It is that your argument?

And yes, Super Star is the best Kirby game ever. The remake for DS is also awesome.


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> First of all, you made 8 points... not 9 (or at least this was the case when I quoted you unedited post).
> Remember the original Resident Evil? Remember that voice acting? If the gaming community looked at games the way you do, we would have never had Resident Evil 2 and 3 (4 and 5, we could have done without in my opinion).Once again, you fail to comprehend the weight of my separate judgments.
> 
> _I don't judge a game strictly on voice acting_. You seem to keep bringing this up as an attempt to give you something to respond to. It's simply another unsavory aspect of an otherwise still flawed game. Resident Evil had _redeeming qualities_ which made up for the technical limitations of the time (not to mention it didn't have two hours of cut scenes).
> ...


Seeing as creative choices are very subjective, its more of a statement of opinion than an argument.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Samus is a woman, deal with it. She has emotions and feelings, these things actually happen.



Emotion and feelings =/= Maternal Instinct/Period. 
Emotion and feeling=/= weak and crybaby.

We must continue this discussion on the chat. EVERYBODY. We can't quote everybody :/. Except if someone make a C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!


----------



## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 13, 2010)

This poll needs a kind of option.


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Spoiler






			
				Urza said:
			
		

> Once again, you fail to comprehend the weight of my separate judgments.
> 
> _I don't judge a game strictly on voice acting_. You seem to keep bringing this up as an attempt to give you something to respond to. It's simply another unsavory aspect of an otherwise still flawed game. Resident Evil had _redeeming qualities_ which made up for the technical limitations of the time (not to mention it didn't have two hours of cut scenes).
> 
> ...








			
				Urza said:
			
		

> As much as I really don't have to, I really just don't want to read all of this again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know that English isn't your first language, and I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you're trying to say.


If what you're trying to say is that Samus had too much emotion in Other M, fine, I agree that they went a bit overboard, but I believe they were trying to make her more relatable than an unfeeling husk of flesh.

Besides, read the manga and you'll see that she often becomes overwhelmed by feelings.



*ON TOPIC*

I believe yes, Nintendo has shown that they rely on the fan-factor a bit much, but can you really say any different for other companies?

I'd be great if they were to introduce new characters and new series to the Nintendo family, but do you think that it would be well received?
As said before, Kirby was just added to Epic Yarn in order to make it sell, it worked. Do you believe it would have sold as well if it did not have Kirby's name on it?
Same with Doki Doki Panic in the English countries. Though a great game, it would have done terribly if it didn't have Mario's mug on the box.


----------



## ProtoKun7 (Nov 13, 2010)

Goli said:
			
		

> Urza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not with Kinect, you don't.


----------



## Hadrian (Nov 13, 2010)

Slyakin said:
			
		

> I've been contemplating about Nintendo, and I think that they're slipping. Like Apple, they seem to just keep on running by making remakes and what seems to be "Plan B" games. Nintendo doesn't seem to be doing very well either; the Xbox and Playstation are slowly catching up.
> 
> 
> Is Nintendo just milking fanboys of their money? It kinda feels like it.


No to all of that.

Nintendo is still doing very well, they've released a console that isn't much more powerful than the GC and are raking in the cash. Their own games sell very well regardless of how easy they are to pirate and they've got the two opposing console manufacturers to release motion controls and sports games that ape their own.

Running on brand loyalty? Not really, loyalty alone doesn't mean good sales. Look at Sega and how their console sales went downhill after the Mega Drive.
Look at how many PS1/PS2 owners there are and then look at how many of them have a PSP.

As for "remakes", they don't do that many but when they do they add content. They are doing what people want, people want a new DKC game they get Retro to make a new game. 3DS announced...people want Zelda OoT, so they give it. They could easily do a lot more, they could release Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker on the Wii or 3DS and people will buy them but they don't.

They also go for innovation, right now they're seeing what to do with Vitality Sensor and how to make it innovative and interesting enough for their games, I doubt it'll be worth it but at least they're giving it a go.

If anything Sony & Microsoft are the ones who are just doing the same thing over and over, taking what has made Nintendo a success in recent years and just repeating it. If only Nintendo did that with their online services though of course not charge too much like Microsoft does.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, Metroid have two completely different views today, the first is from Retro Studios, which is the most faithful to the original trilogy, Samus is just an avatar and in the case of Prime the game is in first person by the fact that he sees and thinks Samus is what the player sees and thinks in the case of the first and the original trilogy is the player versus the planet.

The second view is from Yoshio Sakamoto, who was determined to put an story with a poor quality manga in the Metroid universe and life have Samus, the original trilogy was never about Samus, Sakamoto's Metroids yes. We can see this since Metroid Fusion he has a huge obsession with the character. Which before the advent of Fusion, Samus was nothing more than a Mii, an avatar.

*OFF-TOPIC*

Why I write on GBAtemp? Because to practise my english. GBAtemp is a good comunity  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




LOL. Now there's 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 and 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 now


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you ever played Super Metroid?
Samus is all over the place, and it becomes more of a story about her vengance against Ridley and Mother Brain for stealing the one thing that made her feel human than about the Metroid itself.

I may be add-libbing, but it's not hard to see it that way.


----------



## yuyuyup (Nov 13, 2010)

Worthless topic, quit hating nintendo and get a life


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

yuyuyup said:
			
		

> Worthless topic, quit hating nintendo and get a life


Worthless post, quit hating discussion and get a life


----------



## Hadrian (Nov 13, 2010)

yuyuyup said:
			
		

> Worthless topic, quit hating nintendo and get a life


I don't see "hating" with the topic.


----------



## yuyuyup (Nov 13, 2010)

Urza said:
			
		

> yuyuyup said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so would you like me to list all the brilliant wii/ds titles that have come out this year ?  Or is every single great wii/ds game that came out this year under dispute according to you ?  Cause if you ask me, when a fuckton of great games come out for a system, it seems incredibly fanboyish to say Nintendo is running on sheer brand loyalty.  But whatever, yeah I guess nobody likes Sonic Colors, Goldeneye, Sin and Punishment 2, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Monster Hunter Tri, etc etc etc.


----------



## Urza (Nov 13, 2010)

yuyuyup said:
			
		

> Urza said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And because you have an opinion, nobody else should be allowed a conflicting one?


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Have you ever played Super Metroid?
> Samus is all over the place, and it becomes more of a story about her vengance against Ridley and Mother Brain for stealing the one thing that made her feel human than about the Metroid itself.
> 
> I may be add-libbing, but it's not hard to see it that way.
> ...



We talking about Nintendo. Not about the great games from third parties and sequels of awesome games from 2007.


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not only does that not prove that you played, it's also almost unreadable.
That proves that you know of Super Metroid, possibly from a Youtube video or from a discussion here.

If you've played past the part where it says "Super Metroid" in large letters, you'd know what I was talking about.


----------



## jan777 (Nov 13, 2010)

Dont you just love it when a topic that has potential to be a good one becomes a slightly off topic war against each other preferences? Damn guys.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This thread gonna be LEGEN-DARY and will appear here





.


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 13, 2010)

Spoiler






			
				Juanmatron said:
			
		

> *Gibberish*
> lolwut?
> 
> Thanks for not addressing the very post you quoted.








			
				Juanmatron said:
			
		

> jan777 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Hadrian (Nov 13, 2010)

jan777 said:
			
		

> Dont you just love it when a topic that has potential to be a good one becomes a slightly off topic war against each other preferences? Damn guys.


When is someone gonna accuse someone else of being a nazi?

Would be nice to get back on topic.

How about what they're doing with 3DS and if they're just repeating old glories with that.  Seems to me that they don't seem to have anything new for it. They basically have two N64 games and some new titles that could be done on the N64 but in 3D...its kinda like the GBA again, a new console only more powerful.

Sort of like they want to recapture the gamers that left for the 360.


----------



## Rydian (Nov 13, 2010)

The OOT remake is excusable, people have been not-shutting-the-fuck-up about always wanting to play OOT on EVERY GODDAMN SYSTEM THAT EVER COMES OUT every since... the original came out.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 13, 2010)

Rydian said:
			
		

> The OOT remake is excusable, people have been not-shutting-the-fuck-up about always wanting to play OOT on EVERY GODDAMN SYSTEM THAT EVER COMES OUT every since... the original came out.
> 
> Would not surprise me at all that was one of the launch games, mostly because the game looks like the N64 with a new texture pack (we have seen several packages of new textures for the emulated "version" game) and geometry, somewhat improved by tessellation implemented by hardware. I don't have any problems with this, but there's a problem with Ocarina of Time:
> 
> ...



Why?


----------



## p1ngpong (Nov 13, 2010)

To get slightly back on topic I think it has been proven that gaming consumers are very fickle ones. And just because you are successful in one gen it does not mean you will be successful in the next. Nintendo is an obvious example of this, they ruled in the NES and SNES eras, did not in the N64 and GC era, but now they are on top again. Sony ruled during the PSone and PS2 eras, now they are in third place with the PS3. So much for blind loyal gamers, the top spot shifts all the time and you cant really predict who will be number one when the next gen comes. Nobody gave the Wii a chance before its release, and look where it is now.


----------



## MFDC12 (Nov 13, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> My question is ... why the team developing Zelda does not want to make a natural successor of "Ocarina of Time"?



They did.. its called majora's mask, which hasn't achieved as much popularity as OoT (and would like to see a remake for the 3ds as well  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)


----------



## Sterling (Nov 14, 2010)

MFDC12 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For a rush job, it was a very good game. I believe they were given around 7 or 8 months to complete it?


----------



## MFDC12 (Nov 14, 2010)

Sterl500 said:
			
		

> MFDC12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree completely.. its a very good game. My favorite zelda game too, its practically the only game my n64 has seen since i got it for christmas '00.


----------



## DeMoN (Nov 14, 2010)

They don't release enough Mario/Zelda/flagship games to be considered as running on brand loyalty.  Compare to Apple, which releases a new device every year; that's called milking consumers for money.


----------



## Sterling (Nov 14, 2010)

DeMoN said:
			
		

> They don't release enough Mario/Zelda/flagship games to be considered as running on brand loyalty.  Compare to Apple, which releases a new device every year; that's called milking consumers for money.


Considering Apple isn't even remotely a gaming company... Then yes, 600 dollar hardware revisions is milking the consumer. Who I feel no sympathy for. I would only care about brand loyalty if the Nintendo Flagship games went the route of the CD-i Zelda Games. That is if none of the games had any redeeming qualities worth mentioning.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Nov 14, 2010)

Brand loyalty? How dare you suggest such blasphemy? Are you seriously suggesting a world without mario, zelda, metroid, kirby, pokemon etc etc etc is a good one? Plus, if you've been asleep all these years the DS has been out, nintendo just added a few more 3rd-party flagship titles (ace attorney, prof layton, etc?). And there's still advance wars, fire emblem, golden sun and (insert games here). What, exactly, in this lineup screams "brand loyalty"???

Hey, wanna talk brand loyalty? Look at those shmucks lining up for every Halo title. "Hey it's Halo: I teabagged your mum XXCLM!!! Gotta get the Snoozebox RROD!!!" What the hell. At least Sony is trying something new once in a while.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

MFDC12 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry but no. Nintendo is doing very well to destroy their franchise. They killing Metroid, they killing Kirby, they kill StarTropics, they already killed StarFox, and I'm sure they won't make another F-Zero because one simply reason: Miyamoto couldn't do a better job than Amusement Vision with F-Zero GX.

Oh, and same with DKC. I hate how everybody only talks about all the good of Miyamoto. I would like to talk about how bad designer is and the trouble that Miyamoto is disgustingly guard with their sagas, to the point that if someone does it better than he, he send the game into oblivion or simply change the rules of title or what is the same: Change the gameplay.


----------



## MFDC12 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> MFDC12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess im a little confused what you mean by successor then.

successor - noun - one that follows (source)
Since it followed OoT's story, it is therefore a successor. Regardless if its recycled material (I assume you mean sprites, textures, etc btw) it is a sequel to OoT because it happens right after.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Nov 14, 2010)

If they are running on brand loyalty then they sure do make some amazing brands.

Mario games will pretty much sell no matter what they are. But they still were able to make Super Mario Galaxy after 25 years of the brand. And Super Mario Galaxy is easily one of (if not the best) Mario games ever made. It's polished to a shine and perfect in pretty much every way. I'm saying this as someone who is not brand loyal to Nintendo. I'm saying this as a guy who likes great games.

Sure they made some shitty/cash-in games as of late (all those "Wii series" games outside of Wii Sports Resort which was actually pretty fun) but when it comes to their big name franchises (Mario, Zelda, Kirby, etc), they produce AAA work every time.

And most companies do run off brand loyalty. How do you think Activision is swimming in money? By people blindly buying every Guitar Hero and Call of Duty game out there, even though they're little more than reskins of the last game every time.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

MFDC12 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mayora's Mask is like a sequel. Don't tell me now Super Mario Galaxy 2 is the natural succesor of Super Mario Galaxy.

*Original Game - Natural Succesor*
Super Mario 64 - Super Mario Galaxy
Ocarina of Time - ???


----------



## monkat (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Mayora's Mask is like a sequel. Don't tell me now Super Mario Galaxy 2 is the natural succesor of Super Mario Galaxy.
> 
> *Original Game - Natural Succesor*
> Super Mario 64 - Super Mario Galaxy
> Ocarina of Time - ???



I'm confused. A successor takes the place of the original, for better or worse.

Think of it like a business CEO. His successor is the next CEO. A King's successor is, typically, his son, the next King.

Super Mario 64 -> Super Mario Sunshine (for better or worse)

OoT -> Majora is a little different, seeing that they were released on the same console, with relatively close dates. If you don't consider Majora's to be the successor, then Windwaker certainly is.

Also, Super Mario Galaxy 2 is hailed as better, and is certainly newer than the original, so (again, complicated due to relatively close release dates), yeah, it is the successor.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Mayora's Mask is like a sequel. Don't tell me now Super Mario Galaxy 2 is the natural succesor of Super Mario Galaxy.
> 
> *Original Game - Natural Succesor*
> Super Mario 64 - Super Mario Galaxy
> Ocarina of Time - ???



Last time I checked a successor is what comes after a predecessor.

Don't bullshit this with "natural successors" and what not. Majora's Mask came after Ocarina of Time. It's a successor. Super Mario Sunshine came after Super Mario 64. It's a successor.

But if you really want something to fit your "family tree"...

Ocarina of Time - Twilight Princess.

EDIT: Typo.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you really think that Twilight Princess is the natural successor to Ocarina of Time? Honestly in all my time playing the game I did not think at any time that the game world was the Hyrule of Ocarina of Time Zelda so it's as if Aonuma and his team did not want to play or would not be able to try to overcome Ocarina of Time and Link to the Past. Please believe me then I would like to recap a bit.

* Majora's Mask takes place in a completely different world to Hyrule named "Termina".
* The Wind Waker action happens in a world that although they say it's Hyrule, in fact it is because it is a world all its own in itself.
* The Hyrule from the Twilight Princess is another world apart from the classic Hyrule.
* Apparently Skyward Sword happen in another world completely foreign to the Hyrule of life.
* That's without taking about the worlds of Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks.

I'm not saying it's bad that Aonuma and his team propose new worlds, why should we criticize Retro Studios to do the same with Metroid, but that will not do a Zelda to return to the classic Hyrule instead they make us new worlds to visit makes me think that just do not feel like it.
So ... do not kid yourself, Aonuma and his team don't want to make a spiritual successor of "Ocarina of Time", is unwilling to continue with the classic Zeldas, who expect one so he deceives himself and is sad that I personally have been deceived so long. Who was going to say that Ocarina of Time was the last time he would visit the classic Hyrule...


----------



## Master Mo (Nov 14, 2010)

Haven`t really followed this thread and I don`t really care for the discussions here about sequels (
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) but I thank god, that Nintendo is still making these games. I would be quite mad if they would stop doing them I guess  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Honestly I couldn`t live without Mario-, Zelda- or Metroid-games 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I also really don`t mind them, that they tend to use familiar characters in different contexts (genres), since storytelling is not really a strength of Nintendo and therefor Characters are often just a skin for a gameplay-idea... (like Luigis Mansion or KirbyEY, which I both adore - and where the f**k is my Luigis Mansion NPC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




... would be great with pointer).


----------



## Rydian (Nov 14, 2010)

... doesn't majora's Mask happen right after OOT, to THE SAME LINK?


----------



## MFDC12 (Nov 14, 2010)

Rydian said:
			
		

> ... doesn't majora's Mask happen right after OOT, to THE SAME LINK?



thats what i was saying earlier too. video for Juanmatron to watch


----------



## Samurai Goomba (Nov 14, 2010)

I wish people would stop BAWWWing about EVERY fucking game.

Oh, and there's nothing I hate more than someone using the words "true" or "real" before the word fan. These so-called "true" Metroid and Sonic "fans" (among others) are fucking ridiculous. There were actually people complaining about Sonic having green eyes when Sonic 4 was revealed. What. The. Hell.

Anyway, in response to the original post, of course they are. But so is every other major company in the industry. They're going to keep selling Mario/Zelda games for as long as people keep buying them. It's just good sense.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

MFDC12 said:
			
		

> Rydian said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know that. That is called "sequel". I'm talking about a succesor, referring to the *gameplay* (making them better), not history.


----------



## monkat (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> MFDC12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



....what?

The gameplay in any 3D Zelda game is exactly the same, save for a new controller....


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There’s a huge difference between the Aonuma Zeldas and Miyamoto Zeldas. Where Miyamoto made rich and dynamic overworlds, Aonuma makes poor and static ones.

From the first Zelda to Ocarina of Time, the overworld was growing, not (just) in size, but what you could do in it and what it held inside. The first Zelda doesn’t even make a difference between overworld and dungeons. The way how the game is played is the same (no puzzles to solve or anything), except the triggers where you have to kill the enemies to advance to the next room.

A Link to the Past had some puzzle elements in it, which mostly consisted of finding the master key to get to the boss, but beating the dungeon usually gave you something useful in the overworld.

Ocarina of Time had dungeons with frustrating backtracking, but getting the item usually gave a new way to experience the overworld (that was huge, full of content).

Majora’s Mask had lots of events in the overworld, but after the 37?th time you had played through the same events to see whether Kafei had checked his mail, started to become boring.

Wind Waker didn’t have much of an overworld, an island on each square of the map, shooting enemies with the cannon and what you could find was a treasure under the sea with your grappling hook. Getting a new item from a dungeon didn’t even allow you to experience the overworld in a new fashion.

Twilight Princess looked like a huge improvement and going back to OoT from the surface, but the game felt like playing the OoT Kokiri forest over and over again without the people in it and without surprises to find.

Phanton Hourglass had the same idea as Wind Waker, except that you had to solve puzzles in the overworld just as well.

As far as I’m concerned, Spirit Tracks can stay on the store shelf. I’m not buying it because it obviously isn’t what I consider as a Zelda game.

Everything in Zelda basically revolves around the overworld and how you can play it.

I didn’t write this despite of being a Zelda fan, I wrote it BECAUSE of being one.

I won't say anything more. Only this:


----------



## monkat (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> I didn’t write this despite of being a Zelda fan, I wrote it BECAUSE of being one.



Frankly, chill.

Just because you have imaginary standards for what a Zelda game should be, doesn't mean you're right about the definition of successor.

Period.


----------



## Samurai Goomba (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> I didn’t write this despite of being a Zelda fan, I wrote it BECAUSE of being one.


Ugh. What an utterly obnoxious and arrogant individual you have proven to be.


----------



## Ossot (Nov 14, 2010)

I answered yes, but I'm an inbetween. Nintendo is not running on brand loyalty with it's SOFTWARE.

It is, however, running on brand loyalty when it comes to its hardware, more specifically, the Wii. It lacks features which are beyond expected in this generation. No HD, no native movie playback, not even DVD, virtual console is all but dead, no indie development, a small collection of wiiware, horrible online system, and they absolutely fail to back 3rd party devs. 

So while everyone is arguing Zelda. That's great. Despite what you think of Zelda, Zelda will never be a problem for nintendo. Nor will any of it's IP. It's problem is everything else. You think Mario can move units on a Wii, make a beautiful HD one and release it over xbla and PSN and see how many units it moves. Or, god forbid, a Super Smash Bros versus Marvel type game in HD with online through XBLA and PSN. 

I adore Nintendo. It was my first real console. I've owned every single system they've released. But I would love nintendo more if they would follow Sega's suit and just go software only. Develop games nintendo. You innovated with some hardware, but software is the real reason you're loved today.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Sorry but no. Nintendo is doing very well to destroy their franchise. They killing Metroid, they killing Kirby, they kill StarTropics, they already killed StarFox, and I'm sure they won't make another F-Zero because one simply reason: Miyamoto couldn't do a better job than Amusement Vision with F-Zero GX.
> 
> Oh, and same with DKC. I hate how everybody only talks about all the good of Miyamoto. I would like to talk about how bad designer is and the trouble that Miyamoto is disgustingly guard with their sagas, to the point that if someone does it better than he, he send the game into oblivion or simply change the rules of title or what is the same: Change the gameplay.




Destroy??? What, one game destroys a franchise, that's it? Are you even reading what you are typing right now? The fact that people actually wait, and clamor and more-or-less get excited by an upcoming nintendo AAA title means the franchises are far from dead. Sure, some franchises get the preferential treatment, but pretty soon they all come out into the consumers' hands anyway. Kirby is back, kid icarus is due out soon, even starfy (game i don't know crap about) was made for DS.

All you're spouting is your biased opinions. Go out there and worship Sony or MS or some crap. Miyamoto hater.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, and yes. Don't tell me "Miyamoto hater" when what I said is true. There's a problem when the producer becomes an "artist", the difference between a producer and an artist is that one are looking for please consumers while the second himself. In case of Nintendo that we have repeated one of the endemic ills of "Industry", the transformation of the editor in "artist" and head of all of them have the "untouchable" Miyamoto. Do you think I exaggerate? Then you have little memory.

* Miyamoto is who after Iwata said Wii Music was a fiasco for not moving consoles, said it was the fault of consumers have not learned to appreciate. *But don't worry, all we know Wii Music is just perfect.*
* Miyamoto is the one who was for years against the development of a Super Mario Bros, wine Takeshi Tezuka and launched NSMB DS and sold millions of copies and forcing his appearance on Wii against the real wishes of Miyamoto, who believes consumers should be educated to play with derivatives of Super Mario 64.
* Miyamoto is Nintendo's manager who continuously keeps saying he would like a Wii HD.
* Miyamoto thinks is a good idea make ports of GCN titles (New Play Control), there's no problem here, but the real problem is only ports for games produced by he. You think I mad? Then, why F-Zero GX doesn't have a port for Wii and Chibi Robo (largest sales fiasco than F-Zero GX) has it?
*Oh, and he's the guy who said DKC: Returns doesn't need cooperative mode likes other DKC games.

In the present, I respect more producers of Nintendo than Miyamoto like Takeshi Tezuka, Toshihiko Nakago and Kensuke Tanabe.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Nov 14, 2010)

Yeah, right... Come up with something that isn't

1. QQ-ing at any slightly different game nintendo releases
2. Tomb raiding fior some franchises that are currently in hibernation
3. Bashing Miyamoto.
4. Thinking you know and are absolutely right about everything nintendo.

then perhaps you'll be taken seriously. You think your judgment is the gold standard to what nintendo does??? Get over yourself, troll.


@Graph - dude. whoever made that is seriously sniffing coke and pot at the same time. Does he not know about basic economics??? Supply and demand? Market share? What was competition back in NES days compared to GC days??? Are you seriously huffing that shit and accepting it as fact???


----------



## Kwartel (Nov 14, 2010)

I dunno in other countries, but in Holland half of the kids has a DS and a Wii at home.. so it doesn't run on loyal gamers, but on rich parents.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 14, 2010)

Ossot said:
			
		

> I answered yes, but I'm an inbetween. Nintendo is not running on brand loyalty with it's SOFTWARE.
> 
> It is, however, running on brand loyalty when it comes to its hardware, more specifically, the Wii. It lacks features which are beyond expected in this generation. No HD, no native movie playback, not even DVD, virtual console is all but dead, no indie development, a small collection of wiiware, horrible online system, and they absolutely fail to back 3rd party devs.
> 
> ...


What, have you been looking at other companies? Because of daring innovations, other companies started to copy them. Plus without their new hardware innovations, improvements and experiences of games would have been lost.Go Sega? psssh... 

Anyway yes brand loyalty with software at some periods of time and then other parties come out of nowhere.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> Yeah, right... Come up with something that isn't
> 
> 1. QQ-ing at any slightly different game nintendo releases
> 2. Tomb raiding fior some franchises that are currently in hibernation
> ...



1º Any objections lady?
2º Franchises in hibernation like StarFox, F-Zero, StarTropics, Ice Climbers, Devil World and etc? Only Retro Studios can bringing life to old franchises that Nintendo has run into the ground. They do it awesome with Metroid and pretty well with DK.
3º Okay okay, Wii Music is just perfect and is our fault.
4º I only know N64/GCN just fail, but why if is that "correct"?

Look how troll I am: I hate Miyamoto/Sakamoto/Aonuma's philosophy, I hate Sony PlayStation for begin the cinematic era, I hate Heavy Rain, I like Super Mario Bros. 3 over Super Mario World and I LOVE chocolate (Doc Louis cameo 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I'm just a pure fanboy!!


----------



## Ossot (Nov 14, 2010)

KingVamp said:
			
		

> What, have you been looking at other companies? Because of daring innovations, other companies started to copy them. Plus without their new hardware innovations, improvements and experiences of games would have been lost.Go Sega? psssh...
> 
> Anyway yes brand loyalty with software at some periods of time and then other parties come out of nowhere.



Oh for sure, xbox and sony did indeed copy them. They want to hit the mass market as well. They want random mommies and daddies and 4 year olds. But this is gbatemp, so I figured the demographic I was speaking with would be more interested in what we would consider hardcore and triple AAA titles, not dancing game clones. Nintendo's recent innovations changed what I would call generic gaming. They created what I would call a superficial extra. Even a game that uses the Wiimote properly is hardly earth shatteringly unique. Twilight Princess is twilight princess. Mario is Mario. Perhaps its due to the large amount of shovelware and waggle fests that I, and most, have such a jaded view of motion controls, but I've never played a game where I felt without the motion controls it would be any less of a game, nor have I played a game where I desperately wanted motion controls. Again, I think moms and dads and little kids LOVE the gimmick, but gamers, the kind of gamers that can move 5mil units of something like Fallout in a few weeks -- they don't care about motion controls. 

But I see your point, and await someone's reply of how many Kinects have been sold and are forecast to be sold. As again, see the fourth sentence of the above paragraph.


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Shinigami357 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Green Eyes~
2. StarFox 64 3D. But I will agree with you on the others besides Devil World. Sorry but I just dont find it fun.
3. One bad game = Bad Developer apparently
4. How're the N64 and GC fail? They had some pretty great games.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

ZaeZae64 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




1º Wut?
2º A remake. Okay... Sorry, but StarFox is dead since Argonaut doesn't exist. StarFox wasn't created by Miyamoto.
3º He calling you and me "idiot" for not buy it. I ever thinked Wii Music is an awesome idea destroyed by Miyamoto. This must be Mario Artist: Sound Maker and not this. And again, read what I said. He's disgustingly protector with their sagas to the point if someone makes it better, he change the gameplay or he send it to the obilion.
4º I love them, but their sales are patetic. How many they sell? Even that, GameGube is only a bad version of StarCube. Don't confuse, they not a fail, but if PS1 sell 100 million and PS2 sell 140 million, it's totally a "fail".

Now, let me rest, I'm angry since I read this. Jezz, how idiot is Nintendo sometimes...


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> ZaeZae64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I'm comparing your complaints about Other M to the people who complained about Sonic having Green eyes.
2. Because if the person who made the series left its *destined* to die right?
3. He did? where?
4. Oh. I thought you were saying it was just a fail in general.


----------



## Deleted User (Nov 14, 2010)

They make lots and lots of money from remakes instead of originals.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

ZaeZae64 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1º Compare green eyes with maternal instincts. LOL
2º Again, StarFox is dead since Argonaut  was dissolved. 
3º DKC, F-Zero and Pilotwings are examples.
4º I have a GameCube and I'm proud to have one. 

PD: Dammit, how idiot is Nintendo. They can put SMAPH-S, a graphic cart even more powerful than PICA200 with OpenGL 2.0 and they do this? How hypocrite...


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 14, 2010)

Ossot said:
			
		

> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What you call a "gimmick" cannot help the experiences of the *"kind of gamers that can move 5mil units of something like Fallout in a few weeks" *.

So you are saying anything Nintendo invented or going to invent ,which may soon be copy by other companies, is a gimmick that will only *"appeal to moms and dads and little kids"*?  

I mean look at Mario and Zelda, those are not kid games...


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> 1º Compare green eyes with maternal instincts. LOL
> 2º Again, StarFox is dead since Argonaut  was dissolved.
> 3º DKC, F-Zero and Pilotwings are examples.
> 4º I have a GameCube and I'm proud to have one.
> ...



1. They're both dumb things to complain about.
2. I'm no expert but exactly what did Argonaut games do with StarFox?
3. But I'm asking where he said this.
4. Me too


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Nov 14, 2010)

KingVamp said:
			
		

> Ossot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What I got from his statement is that the Wii hardware itself is a gimmick (spoiler alert: it is) and that though they apply this gimmick to their big franchises (like Mario and Zelda), the games are still Mario and Zelda.

Fact is Nintendo is trying to appeal to "moms and dads and kids". If you say they're not then you're plainly stupid. Yeah, they've been releasing all these games with their classic characters like Kirby and Mario, but that's because they're kid friendly. They released Metroid: Other M, which was not kid friendly, and you know what happened? Well first, it was a mediocre game, and second, it sold pretty bad for a Metroid game. 

And Mario sure as hell is appealing to gamers but it's also appealing to kids. Bright colors, silly characters, etc. And now with the Super Guide, it's now even more friendly for kids.

As for Zelda, mind you it was a launch title for the Wii and it was really before the Wii was defined as a family console. Plus it was definitely more kid friendly than Metroid. Sure, it had swords and stuff but it was still barely a T-rating.

You're not really getting what he's saying.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

ZaeZae64 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1º Okay.
2º Argonaut Games did StarFox SNES and Lylat Wars. Miyamoto only draw late the sketches of StarFox Team. When they dissolved, StarFox died. So tell me, after Lylat Wars, there's any good StarFox?
3º 
DKC: Rare makes a freaking awesome game. What Miyamoto do? He makes Jungle Beat, a great game but no better than DKC.
F-Zero: Nintendo EAD made F-Zero SNES and F-Zero N64. Amusement Vision makes F-Zero GX, this has increible graphics and it looks more arcade, doing better F-Zero. Why Nintendo didn't make another F-Zero since 2003? Choose one of this two: Miyamoto can't make a better job than Amusement Vision or the hobby to use USB Loader.
Pilotwings: Factor5, year 2005, they dominate perfectly GCN's hardware, they gonna release a Pilotwings game for GCN. A "black hand" launch it to the obilion. I have no doubt it was Miyamoto. Why? After the success of Rare with DKC and the possitive reviews of F-Zero GX, Miyamoto decided to no continue those sagas, because he can't do a better job than Rare/AM Vision. If not, why Miyamoto says to make ports of games only that he was the director? Why Nintendo port Chibi Robo and no F-Zero GX if Chibi Robo sold less than F-Zero GX? The absence of F-Zero GX for New Play Control, denial of emergence of a Pilotwings Factor5 under seal and the fact that Miyamoto decided to bury Donkey Kong Country once Rare was bought by Microsoft which says a lot about is the dark side of Miyamoto. These games would not be wrong with the Wii catalog, but not only would add that the recent drought of games we have had have been very good to have those games.
4º GCN the best!


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> 2º Argonaut Games did StarFox SNES and Lylat Wars. Miyamoto only draw late the sketches of StarFox Team. When they dissolved, StarFox died.
> 3º
> DKC: Rare makes a freaking awesome game. What Miyamoto do? He makes Jungle Beat, a great game but no better than DKC.



I hope you realize that Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat (which was pretty damn good) and Donkey Kong Country Returns kinda shows that you don't need a single studio to make good games in a series. Rare stopped doing DKC games a long time ago, but we still got DK: JB (which was good) and the upcoming DKCR. It's quite possible that another studio will take Star Fox.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 14, 2010)

There are other games out there like red steel and no more heroes that wouldn't have been that good without motion controls. 

OK It might be Mario and Zelda, but you can do stuff in the games that you couldn't on a game cube.

I can see they are trying to appeal to moms and dads and kids. but not all companies are. 

Without Nintendo innovation of their hardware those games wouldn't been as good as they're now.


----------



## Fudge (Nov 14, 2010)

Goli said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's how they maintain a profit margin. I love the Art Style games, but I doubt they barely sold at all.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Retro seems to be very apt at bringing to life old franchises that Nintendo has run into the ground. What is next on Retro’s plate? Starfox? Startropics? A new 2D Zelda? Or, perhaps since Nintendo ran Metroid into the ground again, Retro can once again bring it back to life. This time… in amazing 2D…

Oh yes, I know DKC4 for you, honestly, meh.

And DKC4 is directed by Kensuke Tanabe. Miyamoto only tried to eliminate cooperative mode on the game because [sarcasm]*that makes the game more perfect*[/sarcasm]. Maybe to do DKC4 worse than Jungle Beat?


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 14, 2010)

This thread:

Genuine discussion with Juan crying in the background.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> This thread:
> 
> Genuine discussion with Juan crying in the background.








Can we use the chat for this? Srly, try to feel me bad on the chat  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## monkat (Nov 14, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> This thread:
> 
> Genuine discussion with Juan crying in the background.



I thought he said "that's all I'll say" a few hours ago.

...he kept whining.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Nov 14, 2010)

KingVamp said:
			
		

> There are other games out there like red steel and no more heroes that wouldn't have been that good without motion controls.
> 
> OK It might be Mario and Zelda, but you can do stuff in the games that you couldn't on a game cube.
> 
> ...



I hope you realize that pretty much every single Metroid game before Prime was fantastic outside of maybe the first one (which is probably only "bad" due to how outdated it is) and the GBC. The console predecessor to Prime was Super Metroid. I'm pretty sure Super Metroid didn't run the series into the ground.

Zelda was run into the ground? Well that's news. I mean I know some people thought Twilight Princess was the worst 3D Zelda game out there but it was still fantastic and it still sold 5+ million copies.

And I have no idea what point you're trying to make about DKC. You're just sounding like one of those desperate Sonic fanboys who just cries about every Sonic game because it's not as good as 1, 2, or 3. Jungle Beat was still really damn entertaining, crying about a great game not being as great as a classic is just plain moronic.


----------



## ZaeZae64 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Can we use the chat for this? *Srly, try to feel me bad on the chat *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Errr....?_?


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Super Metroid didn't do that. Unfortunately, Super Metroid didn't sell so much and they launch it into the obilion after Retro Studios make a freaking miracle: Revive Metroid and adapt it for 3D. Oh, and I don't believe the stupid history of Metroid64.

Twilight Princess sold a lot because it remember Ocarina of Time greatly in appearance, however I found people who have not finished the game and just leaving it, which is a bad sign.

I don't compare DKC with Jungle Beat. Jungle Beat is just an spin-off like DKC. It's like compare Mario Kart with Paper Mario, I'm not crying, cry for that? WTF? Why I would cry for a great game? I only say Jungle Beat use a different gameplay that we see in DKC, obviosly, because DKC was developed by Rare and Jungle Beat by Nintendo EAD. I love Jungle Beat but DKC is far better.

Oh, and stop saying that about Sonic fans, you make them feel bad. Sonic was my first videogame, so respect man.


----------



## Crimsonclaw111 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Oh, and stop saying that about Sonic fans, you make *them* feel bad. Sonic was my first videogame, so respect man.



"them" meaning you.

All companies run off loyalty of some sort.  Nintendo deserves it.  Even their worst games tend to be at least better than average.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Crimsonclaw111 said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What?


----------



## Midna (Nov 14, 2010)

He's attempting to discredit your argument by implying that you are a Sonic fanboy.


----------



## Ossot (Nov 14, 2010)

KingVamp said:
			
		

> There are other games out there like red steel and no more heroes that wouldn't have been that good without motion controls.
> 
> OK It might be Mario and Zelda, but you can do stuff in the games that you couldn't on a game cube.
> 
> ...



I may be wrong, but didn't, or maybe isn't, NMH coming out for PS3 as well? The motion controls didn't define NMH anymore than they define TWP. 

As for Red Steel. Again, it attempted to use motion controls. I gotchya. It was a mediocre FPS style game with motion controls. Without motion controls it's a mediocre FPS style game. Both of your examples exemplify my exact point. The bulk of wii games, with or without motion controls, are the exact same game. While something like Boom Blox actually does rely on motion controls and would be an entirely different game, it, the game itself, hardly revolutionized the industry. 

There's no denying Nintendo moved a gajillion units due to their motion controls. There's no denying the competitors are attempting to duplicate those results. No one in their right mind would argue either of those points. Where we differ is in the driving force behind those facts. While you think it's industry changing innovation that will affect "gamers," I think it's a gimmick that is aimed at the mass market of NON gamers. It's capitalism not creative genius. Nintendo traded in it's core demographic, the people who grew up with it, in lieu of the layman.

I'm 28, so the bulk of my friends are ~30. We all grew up having nintendo blow our minds and blowing into NES cartridges. Not when it was cool, and trendy, and retro, but when it was cutting edge. I'm the only person I know, short of these forums, who will ever defend Nintendo. Do we no longer love Mario? Not at all. But why go buy some "good" Wii game which will more than likely force you to hold your controller at odd angles and cut off any much-too-bright light sources which you may face your Wiimote at, when you could spend the $50 on something like Fable 3. Which I merely use as an example of a contemporary alternative. Is Mario a great game? For sure. I like every Mario released on the Wii. But I'd be willing to bet you a shit ton, you take any of the Marios, the Zeldas, whatever, and release it in HD on 360/PS3 with true online multiplayer and sans motion controls, and it will sell every bit as many units, and I'd be willing to make a small wager, quite a bit more.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> He's attempting to discredit your argument by implying that you are a Sonic fanboy.



I know that, but is a pretty bad argument and more when my first videogame was Sonic.


----------



## Crimsonclaw111 (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Midna said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The way you worded your posts made it seem (to me) that you took the sonic fan insults personally.  I was trying to clarify.

Ah, I see where I messed up.  I meant to put a question mark instead of a period in my other post.


----------



## Midna (Nov 14, 2010)

Ossot said:
			
		

> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, now they've got the attention of the mass market, all signs point to Nintendo's next gen being a campaign to recapture the core gamers who deserted after the Wii. I hope so, anyway.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> Ossot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nintendo doesn't need core gamers. We only have to see this graphic to know that:







NES won because it was made for people with "playable superhuman abilities". Do you want to know who were the majority of those players with "playable superhuman abilities" playing a videogame console during the arcade era?






People do not buy games to pass them, they but games to have fun with them, after all, it is the functionality of videogames.


----------



## Midna (Nov 14, 2010)

On the topic of the Wii's new controls being useless, I disagree. I believe more than motion controls, the Wii benifited from it's pointer controls. Aiming with an analog stick in Zelda is damn hard. When pointer controls were added to TP, aiming the bow or other projectile weapon became really easy, convenient and precise. The double clawshot minigame is almost impossible in GC Twilight Princess. Other games benifited greatly from pointer controls, like the Metroid Prime series. I believe Corruption's control scheme to be far superior to Prime and Echoes on the gamecube.

Also Juan. Do not believe the larger part of the gaming market is 8 year olds, but rather teens. Heh, my father was a gamer during the arcade and later the NES era. Those games are damn hard. They were never meant for 8 year olds, or used by them either. I know that almost every gamer teen nowadays has a 360 or a PS3. And they play mostly CoD on them. Nintendo also needs those idiots who think violence and graphics = good games.


----------



## Midna (Nov 14, 2010)

Double Dragon Post


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 14, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> Well, now they've got the attention of the mass market, all signs point to Nintendo's next gen being a campaign to recapture the core gamers who deserted after the Wii. I hope so, anyway.
> 
> Edit: I believe more than motion controls, the Wii benifited from it's pointer controls. Aiming with an analog stick in Zelda is damn hard. When pointer controls were added to TP, aiming to bow or other projectile weapon became really easy, convenient and precise. The double clawshot minigame is almost impossible in GC Twilight Princess. Other games benifited greatly from pointer controls, like the Metroid Prime series. I believe Corruption's control scheme to be far superior to Prime and Echoes on the gamecube.


Thank you 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




@Guild McCommunist So you think they should go Sega?


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> On the topic of the Wii's new controls being useless, I disagree. I believe more than motion controls, the Wii benifited from it's pointer controls. Aiming with an analog stick in Zelda is damn hard. When pointer controls were added to TP, aiming to bow or other projectile weapon became really easy, convenient and precise. The double clawshot minigame is almost impossible in GC Twilight Princess. Other games benifited greatly from pointer controls, like the Metroid Prime series. I believe Corruption's control scheme to be far superior to Prime and Echoes on the gamecube.
> 
> Also Juan. Do not believe the larger part of the gaming market is 8 year olds, but rather teens. Heh, my father was a gamer during the arcade and later the NES era. Those games are damn hard. They were never meant for 8 year olds, or used by them either. I know that almost every gamer teen nowadays has a 360 or a PS3. And they play mostly CoD on them. Nintendo also needs those idiots who think violence and graphics = good games.



I say NES was do it for kids and won. NES never go to the hardcore market and it was a success. So, why Nintendo needs core public?

I think the secret of success for Nintendo would be back experiences while NES and SNES games are also added to the catalog of the GCN and N64 eras.


----------



## Ossot (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Nintendo doesn't need core gamers. We only have to see this graphic to know that:



Perhaps we're arguing different points. The more back and forth we have the more it seems that may be the case. It appears as if I'm arguing whether Wii's motion controls IMPROVED the gaming industry, and you're arguing whether Wii's motion controls improved their stock price.

Also, for what it's worth, unless that image was sarcastic, I don't know how an image showing Nintendo's sales peaking when they were aiming for the core market helps your point. But that's neither here nor there, as I imagined the Wii's sales being on it as well. Which, in that case, would. 

edit: Actually, open reading your post, you seem to think that kids weren't the hardcore market in the 1980s. The 15-35 year old demographic wasn't quite the same then as it is today. The reason the "hardcore" demographic today consists of an older crowd is because it is, largely, the SAME people that were playing NES 20+ years ago. NES was aimed at kids because there simply was no other market.


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

Ossot said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nintendo wanted to make a console with a price of 100$. Why Wii cost that price? WiiMote isn't the reason. The reason was this console:






And that image wasn't sarcastic. It's the true, even if we doesn't like that true.


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> I say NES was do it for kids and won. NES never go to the hardcore market and it was a success.


Beat Contra without the Konami Code and say that.

Hard games used to be the thing, but now if a game is hard, people won't buy it.


----------



## Ossot (Nov 14, 2010)

Okay, now I'm sure of it, and done. You seem like a reasonably intelligent guy. I can't imagine actually learning a second language enough to do as much with it as you have. So I'm not insulting you for not speaking English as well as this debate warrants, but the fact is, you don't. Things are clearly being lost in translation, and that's not something even 10 more pages of this thread could remedy. 

Have a good evening.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Nov 14, 2010)

Juanmatron said:
			
		

> Ossot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stop talking in pictures, this isn't 4chan.

You're not making any sense. Why are you talking about Wii pricing now? Yeah it was cheap when it came out and being a relatively inexpensive console it made it sell more, but it's not relevant to the topic at hand. The Wii sold because it appealed to the casual market. Period. The Kinect is $150 (which is pricey as hell for a peripheral), not counting the price of a Xbox 360 if you don't have one, and it still did some major selling at launch.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 14, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Juanmatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't blood,violence, good storyline, and blood the new thing? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 jk 

I'm lost on Juan argument, what is he arguing again?


----------



## Juanmatron (Nov 14, 2010)

KingVamp said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Konami already makes games for DOS and Atari, Contra has DOS and Atari version. They launched those games to see if they sell on the system.

I argumented Metroid Other Shit and then... I can't remember! That's why we must use the chat dammit!


----------



## Shinigami357 (Nov 15, 2010)

KingVamp said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




He isn't arguing. He's just raging that mario and nintendo ran sonic and atari to the ground. Of course there's no mention of all the crappiest sonic titles here, right? Oh, whoops


----------



## Canonbeat234 (Nov 15, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stop right there troll!! He wasn't arguing about anything from Sonic nor Atari, he was making some valid points which does take time to do research on. 

From what I have read so far, Juan's argument is base on the titles that Nintendo made which some of them weren't successful. Nintendo made a DS game which is called Starfox:Command. StarFox was made by Rareware which is the reason why there will be no more sequels. Personally, DKC on the SNES was originally made by Rareware. DKC: Returns to my surprise is looking good even though its being made by Nintendo. 

On Topic: Nintendo has been doing this for a while now, SEGA is no innocent company either. SEGA has fuck themselves due to being irresposible, unorganized, and prideful. Why do you think SEGA can releasing the classic Sonic games fron Genesis unto every bloody gaming device they can think of. What Nintendo is doing that SEGA overlooked is that Nintendo kept the formula simple. Mario - Rescue the princess. Zelda - Link saves Hyrule/World-whatever. These two things shown that the main core gameplay were always there but with twist and turns into it. SEGA made a Sonic game it has been like this...

Sonic - Defeat Robotnik (scratch that)
- Defeat ancient god (scratch that)
- Introduce new character/play the dark side (scratch that)
- Play with all Sonic characters while defeating Robotnik's metallic hedgehog (scratch that)
- Introduce new chracter w/ darker storyline plus complex plot device (scratch that)
- Defeat ancient god (scratch that)
- Defeat Robotnik (Wait, this works?)

You see what SEGA had to do in order to bring around town again?


----------



## Shinigami357 (Nov 15, 2010)

Wait, what? What BS is this? Valid points? Any troll with 5 minutes of google can come up with his ridiculous claims.

1. Nintendo is "killing" metroid blah blah and blah.
- Not true. It's called "change", learn to deal with it. Change is what Nintendo is good at. He won't accept it coz that's wht happens when the changes come: people panic. It's a knee-jerk reaction. If the change is bad, Nintendo will maybe try to improve it or dump it, either way, the series is progressing, not dying. Invalid point.
2. Nintendo "killed" some of it's series
- This is half-true at best. Some of these series' are in hibernation. Nintendo will bring them out as they please. It is their decision, not yours, and you have no say on what they want to do with it. Not one damn thing. Some series died? Oh, right that's just part of natural progression. Some things come to an end, others prosper. Deal with it. Invalid point.
3. Miyamoto sucks
- LOL at this. Seriously? What, a few games and you pass verdict? Again, he's judgmental at best. You don't have any damn right to judge someone who's been in the industry this long. Making decisions in a multi-million company is tough, and some mistakes happen. Again DEAL WITH IT. 

Which one of those are even valid points??? He's the one trolling here.


----------



## Canonbeat234 (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm not going to argue, he didn't say Miyamoto sucks! He did complain about some titles that will never get release heck that's business. I will never get to see Jazz Jackrabbit on 3D that's for sure.

Now the Metriod part, you people created that stupid topic from the very beginning! He was first complaining about Metriodther M. If I remember clearly, Nintendo is about innovation so that's one for you about Metriod. Same thing as for Kirby although I wonder who did created KirbyEY? HAL productions?

Also I called you a troll because he was voicing concerns and bash Nintendo more than he did to SEGA. The topic was about brand loyality not Metriod: Other M. So whoever the hell brought that game up is direcly the troll!

Edit: Then again, this topic reminds of those articles from CNN. Badly written.


----------



## SPH73 (Nov 15, 2010)

Slyakin said:
			
		

> I've been contemplating about Nintendo, and I think that they're slipping.



I think you're pretty much alone in that opinion when it comes to open minded, level headed gamers. Although this poll might fall in your favor, those who voted "yes" are just kidding themselves. All companies are running on brand loyalty. And to say otherwise is totally stupid. 

But let's pretend I'm taking this topic seriously for a moment.... Super Mario Galaxy 2 is easily GOTY material, and there's nothing else like it on the market. Not to mention games like Kirby's Epic Yarn and Donkey Kong Country Returns. The company is producing some of their best conent in years. And we can't ignore all the amazing games on the Nintendo DS. Honestly, gamers are spoiled. This has been a tremendous generation for everyone. (well, maybe not sony, but hey, even Apple has done well the gaming sector.) And that's just the way it is....


----------



## Twiffles (Nov 15, 2010)

What's that? A thread about how "Nintendo is slipping"? 10 pages of forum discussion that's filled with implied statements, minor personal attacks, and fanboyish remarks? Oh no!

Stupid jokes aside, since I didn't reply when the topic first started, I'll leave an opinion.
Overall, you can say they are relying on brands, but not exactly loyalty. Like as stated dozens of times, the names they sell have reached a point in pop culture that everyone and their mother knows who Mario is, literally. As for fanboy milking, that's like EVERY company out there with a major franchise or the like.

Business is business. So guess what?


Spoiler


----------



## DJ91990 (Nov 15, 2010)

While I do like the most of the following games;

Super Mario
Mario VS DK
Mario Kart
Mario (insert sport here)
The Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Pokemon

I think that they need to either
1) Make more sequals to the following franchises;
Pikmin
Kid Icarus
Star Fox

2) Make an original game franchise that is still as fun as the others mentioned above

ALSO!
NO MORE DAMN PERIPHERALS!!
NINTENDO! You are making SOFTWARE for a VIDEO GAME SYSTEM! Nintendo is not a TOY that EVOLVES! If I see ONE MORE WII ADD-ON! I'll QUACK LIKE A DUCK FROM MADNESS!

Speaking of Ducks....DUCK HUNT 3DS AND DUCK HUNT WII! MAKE IT HAPPEN NINTENDO!!

The former Nintenfreak now known as the V-Game Freak, DJ91990 has spoken.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Nov 15, 2010)

Seriously though, asking if any video game company runs on "brand loyalty" is like asking if zerg only builds tech buildings on creep.  Isn't this the reason we even have fanboys?

In my opinion, Nintendo partly lives off brand loyalty and partly because they never hesitate on their ever-evolving definition of video games. Like I said before, it's all change, and the simple fact that people care enough about the changes to have an opinion means that whether they like it or not, the changes are affecting them. If they ran off of pure brand loyalty, why risk alienating the fanbase? It only means that the company is confident enough that they can exist with less brand loyalty if it means making the product better.


----------



## GundamXXX (Nov 15, 2010)

I odnt think theyre running on brand loyalty, they just make sure that their loyal fans are never dissapointed. 

Then again I guess if yuo consider their innovativeness part of their brand you can consider running on it because theyre always showing new concepts etc and because of that they created a loyal fanbase


----------

