# Bad Video Game Writing



## Ryukouki (Jul 5, 2014)

​It really is time for me to start working on that giant queue of stuff that people have asked me to look into and maybe talk about. This means those random article requests that I've buried in the bottom of my brain for some time, or random little errands like piano music requests - yes, Depravo, I haven't forgotten your _Final Fantasy _cover request for Sleepy City Treno! I intend to actually start on that really soon! 

*coughs* Well, anyway. Enough of that. Today's topic was provided for discussion by Hyro-Sama and by golly it's a really interesting piece for me because I played a lot of the type of games that the discussion topic goes into. It's interesting because this topic hits close to home, being an OCD perfectionist who hates these little typos. And with that, today's subject is about poor video game writing, which can boil down to several different factors.

[prebreak]Continue reading[/prebreak]

With Hyro-Sama having presented me this article from USGamer via JPGamer at first I brushed it off thinking it wasn't too relevant, but I gave it a more thorough read and I realized that I had some stuff I wanted to say about this issue.  

One of the things that I really found to be true was that video games have a bit of a problem when it comes to perception, where we as gamers seem to find that gamers make the assertion that games in general suffer from bad writing, which by itself is a weak form of criticism when spoken of alone without justification. When we look at games, there are always going to be the nonsense and illogical titles that seem to have no real flow or logic in its text, and that can be due to the way the game was scripted, but there are definitely other parts of the script itself that can be accounted for. More often than not, we see games that have been rejected completely on the basis of bad writing, and I'd love to be able to explore some of those reasons. Factors like translation.

Translations

It happens with fan translations, it happens with things that we input into Google translation, heck, it can even happen in big titles. Often times, these bad writing remarks due to translation arise in games that have originated in the East, like Japan or Korea. 



_I still can't believe that this was in the game. _​​Thankfully, gaming translations have improved dramatically. We should hopefully be well beyond this point, but sometimes, these issues still occur. For those that have played a title both in the native Japanese and American tongue, there are often some things that are changed in the script, which can impact the writing in a negative way. Why could such a thing happen?​​Playing translator is no fun, and they're bloody difficult. I've tried being a translator for a student that was studying abroad in my neighborhood, and it's pretty hard because there's a barrier because something that might be funny on one culture might not make any sense in another culture. It's a conundrum that raises a question about whether or not the original script should be used, or whether it should be modified so that the audience being targeted actually knows what's going on. We might just flat out dismiss something because we simply don't understand another country's humor. An example based on what I had been reading was the series _Spice and Wolf, _a chain of light novels that took a pretty long time to get rolling for us in North America. Now, the North American translation was absolutely splendid, explaining foreign elements so that readers don't quite get so lost. On the other hand, some fan translations existed that kept all of the Japanese text intact, with honorifics and cultural puns. Is there a limit to where we need to draw that line in saying something has bad writing without looking at the text itself in comparison to its culture?​​Illogical Scripting​We've seen those games, games where the plot has more holes than Swiss cheese, plots that are incredibly absurd. We've seen scripts where the dialogue looks like it was written by a five year old. Does that mean it automatically has poor writing? Could we definitively say yes here?​​

_He had so much potential but he ended up as a wasted opportunity!_​​On one hand, I have _Call of Duty. _The scripting is just distasteful and droll, and then you have the criticism about the plot being bad, with the defenders pointing at the gameplay to make their point - that gameplay was all that really mattered and that no one played the game for plot. On another hand, you can have a game like Pokémon, which gets slammed by people because the plot is childish and a complete turnoff. Look at its anime counterpart, which has done the same song and dance script for the past decade. Does that necessarily equate to bad writing? How do we even classify "bad writing?" Is bad writing considered writing that isn't for its target demographic? Is bad writing an illogical mess? Is bad writing translation error? Is bad writing coined because it tried to be friendly to its audience by modifying the script so that its audience might actually get the joke/characterization?​​Hurry Up and Finish, I'm Bored Already!​Time after time I continually see games being dismissed on the grounds of bad writing. But instead of flat out saying why the writing was bad, take a second to explain why exactly you found it to be such. Did you think about why it might be that way in the first place? Could it have been to target a specific demographic or audience in an attempt to get their players to understand the joke? Could it be a translation problem? There's a lot more to this iceberg, but that's all I have time for today. Let me know what you think in the comments below!​​


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 5, 2014)

Bad writing for me is when something sounds so ridiculous that I can't even take is serious.
And I don't mean serious as in "look Bayonetta is ridiculous and silly, that's not serious" but rather "look the text is written by 9 year olds, that's not serious".
I remember in FF7 in the German version there was this one scene with Aeris and Cloud that was soo poorly written I had the feeling I read a poorly written fan fiction of the game I'm playing. and yeah the whole plot of AZ was a mess too. Instead of making it Kill everybody out of rage then create a machine to revive pokemon, have said pokemon find out about the killing spree of AZ and finally leaving him, which sounds logical, we got Revive -> killing spree (even though at this point there is no reason to since the pokemon is already alive!) -> discovery -> leave. This was bugging me so much that I couldn't take the final scene seriously.


----------



## emmanu888 (Jul 5, 2014)

INB4 "All our base are belong to us"


----------



## Nathan Drake (Jul 5, 2014)

I feel this is always relevant when the idea of bad writing in video games comes up theses days:


----------



## The Real Jdbye (Jul 5, 2014)

I swear that line wasn't in my copy of Final Fantasy 7. Was that only in the NTSC copy?
I thought the story about AZ and his Floette was rather touching, hadn't really thought about the quality of the story but you learn to never expect much of a story from Pokemon games and I think the story has been improving in the latest generations, so I'm not complaining.

Anyway good post. I think we all have our fair share of video game writing pet peeves. I'm a big AVGN fan so I've seen a lot of it in his videos, it's often hilariously bad.


----------



## TheLostSabre (Jul 5, 2014)

Nathan Drake said:


> I feel this is always relevant when the idea of bad writing in video games comes up theses days:



This. This oh so much...


----------



## zeello (Jul 5, 2014)

The last story to Sonic 06 is bad writing, 1) because it doesn't fit the tone of the series, and 2) because it results in bad or awkward voice acting. This is something they obviously should have accounted for. I believe in safety engineering principle. If something is going to be harder to pull off correctly then it's probably not worth doing. (well that sounds harsh, but you have to ration what you really want to do with a game and what isn't really necessary, and having Sonic die just so the entire cast can stand over his corpse and show off their voice talent in an extended mourning scene probably falls into the latter)

the rest of the game is good writing however

Final Fantasy Tactics (the PS1 version at least) is another example of a bad writing. To have a flashback within a flashback is probably breaking a rule somewhere, I've always thought, and in fact I think I actually remember hearing such a rule eventually but I forgot where.

Metroid Other M is fantastically bad writing, because "confession time". That one scene is like the hiroshima of bad writing.

Although it's not nearly as bad as Blaze the Cat stating that she has a fear of heights in Sonic Rush. Really? REALLY?! For crying out loud one of the levels is called Altitude Limit (implying the maximum height that could conceivably be reached) which takes place in the sky and even has a parachuting sequence and a hang gliding sequence. Funny though how Sonic is not afraid of heights but Blaze is and needs friends to coddle her, oh but I guess it's because she's a girl and he's not, makes sense.

other examples of bad writing:

Sonic series has so many (and rather generic) sealed evils by this point it's a wonder how the Earth hasn't been demolished yet...
..especially since Sonic is weirdly kind of ok with letting the world end. (Sonic Black Knight)
every cutscene in Sonic Colors for Wii (can someone explain why this game even needed cutscenes?)
Metal Gear Solid series with its compulsive need to stop for yet another two hour long cutscene
on audio atrocities website, I heard this one line in Enchanted Arms: "My name is the Ice Queen".
In the very start of Wild Arms, you are treated to a conversation between 'Hanpan' and 'Treasure Hunter' and one is a guy while the other is a hamster. 1) First of all, which one is which? and 2) How the hell is it we know the name of one but not the other despite being the very first time we see either of them? And of the two why would we know the name of a magical talking hamster but not the human?? The only way that would make sense if we were introduced to him first. (would it have been so hard to implement?? "hi there im hanpan the magical talking hamster, I'm waiting for my master. oh here he comes now") 3) Given enough time we can logically deduce that Hanpan is the hamster, because a talking hamster being a treasure hunter can reasonably be construed as being even more silly than a human having a name, (even though Hanpan is in fact ALSO A TREASURE HUNTER *facepalm*) and because 4) obviously, the only reason human wasn't named because ithe game was shamelessly holding out for the part where you get to name him. Yep, nothing to see here folks..


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 5, 2014)

zeello said:


> - Metal Gear Solid series with its compulsive need to stop for yet another two hour long cutscene


 
How is this bad writing? It's more of a game play issue than story writing issue.
The problem with MGS writing is the fact that every sequel has the need to retcon something to work properly.


----------



## GHANMI (Jul 5, 2014)

zeello said:


> - every cutscene in Sonic Colors for Wii (can someone explain why this game even needed cutscenes?)


 

The cutscenes (also, the random Eggman PSA clips playing in the background) in Sonic Colors were brilliant, and genuinely funny. Much unlike with other Sonic titles, they were a highlight of the game, and fit its mood perfectly. The premise of an amusement park in space is absurd enough, and they are certainly written miles better than most other generic excuse plots for platformers.


----------



## zeello (Jul 5, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> How is this bad writing? It's more of a game play issue than story writing issue.


Then it's bad game writing.

Movie critics aren't shy to point out when a movie is too long and/or slow paced, and often point out that it could have been shorter. You wouldn't necessarily say that "it's more of a movie watching issue than a story writing issue". When writing for a game you may do well to understand that you're already competing with gameplay for time, but also the fact that the actual game parts already accomplish certain things without the need for writing (identifying with the character, etc) and you just need to add what's missing. (*ahem* AND do it well)



> The problem with MGS writing is the fact that every sequel has the need to retcon something to work properly.


I might say retconning is not bad writing necessarily



GHANMI said:


> genuinely funny


do you know what the word 'genuinely' even means?



GHANMI said:


> The premise of an amusement park in space is absurd enough, and they are certainly written miles better than most other generic excuse plots for platformers.


The cutscenes are basically just Sonic talking to himself in the mirror, although occasionally Tails appears to say something funny, witty, charming, or emotionally compelling. The story has nothing to do with an amusement park in space. It merely happens to be where the game is set.



> most other generic excuse plots for platformers.


Sonic Colors has no plot


----------



## CamulaHikari (Jul 5, 2014)

The first thing that pops to mind is Lux-Pain's godawful localization. A shame really, because the game was great.


----------



## Veho (Jul 5, 2014)

Bad writing as in dialogue or as in storyline?


----------



## GHANMI (Jul 5, 2014)

zeello said:


> do you know what the word 'genuinely' even means?
> 
> 
> The cutscenes are basically just Sonic talking to himself in the mirror, although occasionally Tails appears to say something funny, witting, charming, or emotionally compelling. The story has nothing to do with an amusement park in space. It merely happens to be where the game is set.
> ...


 

*insert no_fun_allowed.gif here*
It was funny yet not forced, at least for me. It's not like this is an unpopular opinion either; MadWorld editors did a good job with the script.





And technically, it did have a plot:
>Eggman opens amusement park in space
>Sonic & Tails go and investigate
>They find out Eggman is harvesting energy from wisps and destroying ecosystems of planets to further his plans 
>They foil his various plans
>He finishes his WMD for a grand finale
>Sonic saves the day, park destroyed, wisps saved

A plot that's really common in mainstream media.

Nothing to do with an amusement park in space?
Every single cutscene has something to do with the current attraction of that particular level.

 In execution, it gets the exposition job done:
doesn't take itself too seriously 
doesn't get in the way of the gameplay
isn't an annoyance to slog through

Short, concise and enjoyable writing for what the game is.


----------



## zeello (Jul 5, 2014)

GHANMI said:


> *insert no_fun_allowed.gif here*
> It was funny yet not forced, at least for me.


it is absolutely forced. The entire reel is just forced attempts at humor
Cubot/Orbot? Really?



> It's not like this is an unpopular opinion either; MadWorld editors did a good job with the script.


right, cause Madworld at no point tries too hard to be funny



> And technically, it did have a plot:
> >Eggman opens amusement park in space
> >Sonic & Tails go and investigate
> >They find out Eggman is harvesting energy from wisps and destroying ecosystems of planets to further his plans
> ...


Sonic 3 & Knuckles has more plot than that but how much cutscene time?

Also, harvesting energy from wisps? destroying ecosystems of planets? Builds WMD to conquer the earth? This story obv takes itself way too seriously. Send it back. Send it back UNTIL SEGA LEARNS.



> Every single cutscene has something to do with the current attraction of that particular level.


"the grass here is green. can we make Sonic say something funny about green?"



> In execution, it gets the exposition job done:
> doesn't take itself too seriously


actually it does, just in a different way.



> doesn't get in the way of the gameplay


are they skippable?



> Short, concise and enjoyable writing for what the game is.


It is none of those things.


----------



## Psionic Roshambo (Jul 5, 2014)

emmanu888 said:


> INB4 "All our base are belong to us"


 

You gotta have the video to go with it!!!! lol


----------



## migles (Jul 5, 2014)

Ryukouki why isn't the article longer? you just showed 2 in-game pictures, and the article is too short...

or will this be devided in other parts\posts? like a series of articles?

you really missed "a winer is you"

can you maybe make an article of hilarious games a player should play because they are bad/glitchy?


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 5, 2014)

zeello said:


> Then it's bad game writing.
> 
> Movie critics aren't shy to point out when a movie is too long and/or slow paced, and often point out that it could have been shorter. You wouldn't necessarily say that "it's more of a movie watching issue than a story writing issue". When writing for a game you may do well to understand that you're already competing with gameplay for time, but also the fact that the actual game parts already accomplish certain things without the need for writing (identifying with the character, etc) and you just need to add what's missing. (*ahem* AND do it well)



If it had to be bad game writing then the cutscenes not only had to be too long, as in longer than they needed to be, but also bad. However MGS cutscenes never feel too long because the gameplay is slow paced and the cutscenes blend in perfectly into it. Also they always tell and show you as much as they need to tell and show. They also add in some thing to interact with inside those cutscenes. They spend a good amount of time unveiling the plot and developing characters which can't be done inside gameplay without braking the gameplay which would piss of the fans. And it takes the game only so long for cutscenes because of how complex both plot and characters are.
If you don't like MGS because of the length of the cutscenes then the series is simply nothing for you. But they aren't objectively bad written. They are far away from that.



> I might say retconning is not bad writing necessarily


 
Not at all... FF13-2 and 13-3 are "only" retconning a unstable plot that already doesn't work on it's own to justify 2 sequels. I mean 13-2 even ended with a to be continued and they still had to retcon, wtf?


----------



## Black-Ice (Jul 5, 2014)

>How long until Gbatemp cannot resist mentioning FF XIII: 17 posts

Well done XrosBlader821


----------



## zeello (Jul 5, 2014)

bad writing is bad writing if it doesn't fit the context. This is a fundamental point that I don't see their need to elaborate on further. Buy if you simply think the cutscenes in MGS aren't actually too long then that's a different matter entirely.

"as much as they need to tell and show" Yes but can they have done it in less time? Or was the writer not competent enough to pull that off? Furthermore, if the story needed to tell you so many things and show you so many things, doesn't that make it a bad script?

"how complex the plot and characters are" who says it needed to be that complex?

"gameplay is slow placed" this point I hate the most. The game is already slow, so you make it even slower? If anything it might have been more logical to have fast paced cutscenes. Likewise if a game is fast paced then slow cutscenes would be an excellent addition since it would balance things out and give the player some cooldown time, and keep the actiony parts feeling fresh.


----------



## Vipera (Jul 5, 2014)

I don't mind bad translations as long as they are limited to very rare typos and such. What I hate are plot holes of stuff that either isn't explained or has an half-assed excuse. Everyone complains about HURR DURR TEH BABY in Other M, I complain that I still haven't figured out who the hell the "traitor" was.


----------



## zeello (Jul 5, 2014)

I think the traitor in Other M is neat and one of the high points of the story, I also find it rather commendable the game never reveals who it was, effectively making it a talking point for the ages. (and maybe a decade from now someone will figure out who it is) The worst part really is the fact the game goes ahead and gives the traitor a codename on our behalf. Yea, real classy.


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 5, 2014)

Black-Ice said:


> >How long until Gbatemp cannot resist mentioning FF XIII: 17 posts
> 
> Well done XrosBlader821


uhm your point is? Is using FF13 as a example on how to not do it taboo now or what?




zeello said:


> bad writing is bad writing if it doesn't fit the context.


What context? Do you even know what you are talking about? Are you sure? I think not.



> "as much as they need to tell and show" Yes but can they have done it in less time? Or was the writer not competent enough to pull that off?


I'm not sure if I should take you serious at this point. If you wanna insult Kojima for creating scripts that other people couldn't have even dream of then go to DSPgaming on YouTube and join his anti Kojima clan and be one of those people who are laughed at on a daily basis by almost everyone who likes MGS. Seriously though, don't be one of those people.



> Furthermore, if the story needed to tell you so many things and show you so many things, doesn't that make it a bad script?


Yes because having much to tell and show equals a bad script. totally. It does not mean that people actually put a lot of work into it. at all.



> "how complex the plot and characters are" who says it needed to be that complex?


At this point I really don't take you serious anymore. It's metal gear. Of course it's going to be complex. That's what the series is known for and that's what fans love about the series. Unless we talk about Metal Gear rising that game is f*cking Hype.
Go play it it has fast pacing and short cutscenes and completely different gameplay and completely different everthing. 
And fans love it (they don't but I do)



> "gameplay is slow placed" this point I hate the most. The game is already slow, so you make it even slower? If anything it might have been more logical to have fast paced cutscenes. Likewise if a game is fast paced then slow cutscenes would be an excellent addition since it would balance things out and give the player some cooldown time, and keep the actiony parts feeling fresh.


 
Have you actually ever played a Metal Gear Solid game? Are you sure? I think not.
You know these don't get an average of 92+ on metacritic for nothing. And usually the user reviews would look entirely different than legit review but ugh sorry. And don't come with "but it's so much over hyped" cause it's not. Compared to any Final Fantasy ever I don't hear people talking about these games from where ever I look.
Again, if you don't like it then its because you don't like it not because its bad.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jul 5, 2014)

zeello said:


> I think the traitor in Other M is neat and one of the high points of the story, I also find it rather commendable the game never reveals who it was, effectively making it a talking point for the ages. (and maybe a decade from now someone will figure out who it is) The worst part really is the fact the game goes ahead and gives the traitor a codename on our behalf. Yea, real classy.


 

This is sarcastic right? You can't say that the "high point" of the story is a subplot that doesn't actually get concluded or have pay off. You have one boss fight against him in which he escapes and you only learn who he is through deductive reasoning. You don't know why he's doing it or what the purpose is for the story. It's completely unrelated. It's in fact a prime example of why Other M is a poorly written piece of shit.

There was also a good post by soulx that I'll just post here, credits to him:



soulx said:


> With regards to the story, don't forget about that terrible exposition. This is all dialogue taken word for word from the game.
> 
> "I had been reliving the tragic moments of my recent past. Thanks to the Hyper Beam, which was given to me somehow by the baby, I laid Mother Brain to waste. And the explosion that followed destroyed Planet Zebes, along with the remains of Mother Brain, the Space Pirates, and my long-standing nemesis, Ridley. And the baby."
> 
> ...


----------



## Gahars (Jul 5, 2014)

It can be hard to define bad writing because there's a wide range of reasons for why a game can be written poorly. Flat characters, cringeworthy dialogue, nonsensical plots, uninvolving narrative plot structure, painful prose, etc. etc. Sometimes there's too little writing, and then sometimes there's way, way too much. Shit, sometimes even the delivery can make otherwise decent writing seem awful.

In general, people say video games have poor writing because, well, they do, for the most part. For a while, plots were either nonexistent or extremely brief justifications for the action on screen ("The President's been kidnapped by ninjas! Are you bad enough dudes to save him?"). When developers tried to add stories to their games... well, developers aren't writers, and it showed. Even when professional writers were brought on board, many wrote games as if they were writing movies or television programs. We still get this; how many games have stories that seem utterly divorced from the gameplay?

Video game narratives remain stunted because there's no demand for great writing, for two reasons. First, many people just don't care, which is fine. Some games really don't need flowing narratives; sometimes, you just want to jump in and play. The second, and more damaging, cause is that people will rally around and praise awful writing. Take Bioshock Infinite, a confused mess of a story revolving around quantum mechanics written by a man who admits he doesn't understand quantum mechanics. In any other medium, the script would be laughed out of the room, and yet put it in game form and it's compared to Citizen Kane. This lowering of standards encourages and enables poor writing, and does nothing for the industry's reputation.

Another example is Bioware. They're a studio that's been lauded by many for having some of the best writers in the industry... and this is the writing they're turning out (none of that text has been altered). Imagine looking in from the outside and hearing that this is supposed to be some of the best video games have to offer; it's going to give you a pretty poor impression.

So this sort of became a rambling rant, but... video games' writing problems are far, far deeper than perception. People say video games have bad writing because a lot of video games do have bad writing. Some video games have good or great writing, too. If we want to change the perception of writing in video games, we need to promote these games and demand more from game narratives in general. We shouldn't lower our standards; we need to raise them. If developers are going to bother with a story, we should demand good stories, or, hell, just functional ones.


----------



## goober (Jul 5, 2014)

I think the epitome of mostly technically sound but absolutely terrible writing in a videogame is Final Fantasy IX.

The only way IX is able to convey emotions is with ellipses.

Zidane...
Garnet...
Dagger...
Vivi...
Zidane...
Zidane...
Dagger...
Steiner...
Beatrix...

Seriously, I didn't notice it the first time I played but ffs it is absolutely awful when you start to pay attention. Plus, really, Final Fantasy IX's story is easily one of the most mangled and poorly arranged in a modern Final Fantasy with a proper translation. It's cliche after cliche, even for a Final Fantasy game, and over all very lazy in how it conveys just about anything.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jul 5, 2014)

goober said:


> I think the epitome of mostly technically sound but absolutely terrible writing in a videogame is Final Fantasy IX.
> 
> The only way IX is able to convey emotions is with ellipses.
> 
> ...


 

To be fair there was no real voice acting and usually you'd express someone saying something "emotionally" with a pause... like an ellipses

The rest of the complaints can be valid though.


----------



## goober (Jul 5, 2014)

Guild McCommunist said:


> To be fair there was no real voice acting and usually you'd express someone saying something "emotionally" with a pause... like an ellipses
> 
> The rest of the complaints can be valid though.


 
Nope. Not buying it one bit. I mean, yes, games before voice acting used that method a lot at times, but IX takes the cake. Particularly for expressing that very specific emotion and that's what's so jarring. It's almost exclusively used in that game to only denote that general feeling and emotion.

VIII was pretty damn emo and even it doesn't abuse that method nearly as much as IX. It gets close, but again, not nearly as bad.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jul 5, 2014)

goober said:


> Nope. Not buying it one bit. I mean, yes, games before voice acting used that method a lot at times, but IX takes the cake. Particularly for expressing that very specific emotion and that's what's so jarring. It's almost exclusively used in that game to only denote that general feeling and emotion.
> 
> VIII was pretty damn emo and even it doesn't abuse that method nearly as much as IX. It gets close, but again, not nearly as bad.


 

Could have been worse. FFX had some outright horrendous emotion and is a prime example of how to NOT do voice acting in a game. The list of voice actors, the acting itself, is just pretty piss port. At least Final Fantasy IX had better pacing and more emotion.


----------



## goober (Jul 5, 2014)

the_randomizer said:


> Could have been worse. FFX had some outright horrendous emotion and is a prime example of how to NOT do voice acting in a game. The list of voice actors, the acting itself, is just pretty piss port. At least Final Fantasy IX had better pacing and more emotion.


 
I actually didn't mind X so much. It wasn't THAT bad outside of a few scenes. My biggest problem was Yuna, which is basically the perfect personification of IX's ellipses. She's all ellipses, just like IX. Easily one of the most annoying and poorly written characters ever in the Final Fantasy universe. The concept was ok, but the implementation was terrible both in writing and voice acting.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jul 5, 2014)

goober said:


> I actually didn't mind X so much. It wasn't THAT bad outside of a few scenes. My biggest problem was Yuna, which is basically the perfect personification of IX's ellipses. She's all ellipses, just like IX. Easily one of the most annoying and poorly written characters ever in the Final Fantasy universe. The concept was ok, but the implementation was terrible both in writing and voice acting.


 
Ugh, I know, right? It didn't help her voice was so bloody soft-spoken and had no emotion whatsoever. Tidus was equally bad, forced laughter, always whining about Sin, or whining about why me kind of scenarios. The battle system and soundtrack helped make the game tolerable. Final Fantasy Vi however, is how to do FF right in my opinion.


----------



## orcid (Jul 5, 2014)

The worst translation I have ever read in a videogame was in "Champions World class Soccer" (SNES). "penalty shoot-out" is translated with "Elfmeterschießen" in german. "Schießen" means to shoot. In this game the penalty shoot-out is called "scheißen" which means "to shit".


----------



## loco365 (Jul 6, 2014)

I just read all of this and FFIV has completely changed for me:

http://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-iv/

No longer is it really about Cecil trying to save Rosa while Kain is being a complete idiot, I'm starting to see all the smaller things in the story and how for one thing, there is an opposite side to it.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jul 6, 2014)

Final Fantasy Anthology: Final Fantasy V on the Playstation. What the hell happened to the translation?

Wyvern - Y Burn
Lenna - Reina
Farris had a pirate accent (not in JPN version)
An enemy called Steel Dress and Bald Money
Gilgamesh was called Gargamel 

GBA version has the best translation, SFC version has the best audio quality. 

It wasn't just a bad translation, it was horrid, and the game was just a jumbled mess. The GBA translation was far closer to the original script (and yes, I have beaten the Japanese version and understood the dialog). Breath of Fire 2 was also lol-worthy when released in the US.


----------



## Alchemilla (Jul 6, 2014)

The translation of Ragnarok in ToP is really bad because Kangaroo is a fuckin Australian animal and Ragnarok is a god of death or something.

Edit: Wahaha! Gargamel? Isn't that that fuckin guy from Smurfs or some shit?


----------



## Tom Bombadildo (Jul 6, 2014)

Been playing the Fallout series recently, had just finished 2 about a week ago and I'm now on 3 and holy shit is the dialogue in general terrible in this game. I never really noticed before, since I usually just fast-forward through the dialogue and the story stuff...but man is it bad. The story itself is ok, it could hold itself up well enough for Fallout, but then the dialogue is just some giant pile of shit that pushes the game straight to the ground. My main gripe is that the game just assumes whomever is playing is a fucking idiot, and the dialogue is either extremely obvious or is way too short and doesn't end up making any sense., not to mention a majority of the time they just throw 3 different lines you can use in a neutral/good/evil setup

"So yeah you wanna kill them Ghouls?"

"FUCK YOU I'LL KILL ALL OF THEM I DON'T CARE"
"YEAH! EXCELLENT! WONDERFUL! ANYTHING FOR THE SAFETY OF THE WORLD!"
"Sure." 

10/10, best dialogue.


----------



## TheLostSabre (Jul 6, 2014)

zeello said:


> I think the traitor in Other M is neat and one of the high points of the story


I really hope you're joking, for your own sake.


----------



## zeello (Jul 6, 2014)

guys, I already stated that other m has terrible writing. That's actually the first thing I said in this thread regarding other m.


----------



## Arras (Jul 6, 2014)

Alchemilla said:


> The translation of Ragnarok in ToP is really bad because Kangaroo is a fuckin Australian animal and Ragnarok is a god of death or something.
> 
> Edit: Wahaha! Gargamel? Isn't that that fuckin guy from Smurfs or some shit?


Yes.


----------



## zeello (Jul 6, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> What context? Do you even know what you are talking about? Are you sure? I think not.


By context I simply meant writing for a videogame as opposed to book or film/TV.



> I'm not sure if I should take you serious at this point. If you wanna insult Kojima for creating scripts


"how dare you disrespect master kojima"
uh oh.. what have I gotten myself into



> that other people couldn't have even dream of then go to DSPgaming on YouTube and join his anti Kojima clan and be one of those people who are laughed at on a daily basis by almost everyone who likes MGS.


so if I criticize something I will invoke the ire of people who like that thing?
whew I thought it would be something much worse



> Seriously though, don't be one of those people.


if one of us is "one of those people " its you, mister metal gear solid story writing defense force



> Yes because having much to tell and show equals a bad script. totally. It does not mean that people actually put a lot of work into it. at all.


because putting a lot of work into something automatically makes it good



> You know these don't get an average of 92+ on metacritic for nothing.


Its called gamerankings



> And usually the user reviews would look entirely different than legit review but ugh sorry. And don't come with "but it's so much over hyped" cause it's not. Compared to any Final Fantasy ever I don't hear people talking about these games from where ever I look.


You're so downtrodden by those mean ol' FF fans
MGS is the underdog



> again, if you don't like it then its because you don't like it not because its bad.


 
all I did was say the writing is bad and I'm far from the first person to say this


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 6, 2014)

zeello said:


> By context I simply meant writing for a videogame as opposed to book or film/TV.


so in other words MGS writing is bad because it tries to achieve level of writing seen in books or a film & TV.
Yeah you are right, let's reduce our standards just to keep actual crappy VG writing for ever instead trying for reaching better ones.



> if one of us is "one of those people " its you, mister metal gear solid story writing defense force


I wouldn't sound like that if you would actually bring a legit argument for why MGS writing is bad. All you say is ridiculous stuff like "big script = bad", "complex deep characters = bad" which is complete nonsense.



> Its called gamerankings


You mean gamerankings.com ? Where the games still have an average of 92% minus all the HD re-releases?



> all I did was say the writing is bad and I'm far from the first person to say this


And I'm far from the first person to say that I like Other M. Does it mean its a objectively good game? No.


----------



## zeello (Jul 6, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> I wouldn't sound like that if you would actually bring a legit argument for why MGS writing is bad. All you say is ridiculous stuff like "big script = bad", "complex deep characters = bad" which is complete nonsense.


I never said complex or deep characters are bad, I'm just not convinced that it excuses having such a bloated script.


----------



## Gahars (Jul 6, 2014)

Tom Bombadildo said:


> The story itself is ok, it could hold itself up well enough for Fallout


 

Even then...


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 6, 2014)

zeello said:


> I never said complex or deep characters are bad, I'm just not convinced that it excuses having such a bloated script.


And I'm not convinced that you have any legit arguments of why the script is bad other than your own opinion.


----------



## Taleweaver (Jul 6, 2014)

One of the things I find perplexing is why stories in games seem to matter to people. Sure, I know plenty of examples of games with a good story, and some games even go to the point of blending in with books so much it combines just marvelously (999 comes to mind, though I'm sure there are many dozens that fit the description).

But that said...why do you play games? I usually just want to PLAY the game. Mario games keep repeating the same paper thin plot twist over and over, but it doesn't bother anyone. Sure, there's some laughter from even the players themselves, but it's not like anyone is not going to buy the game for that reason.

And even the bad 'Engrish' translations have their place. They're like those old, badly lip-synced Oriental fighting movies: somewhat of a cult phenomenon. Come to think of it...why is this sort of writing not seen more often?  It's campy, cheesy, retarded and ridiculously fun exactly because of it. (the answer to that latter question is probably "check the indie scene more!"...games like retro city rampage do that stuff for breakfast).


The thing with "bad writing" is probably best described as "campy going wrong". And that is somehow reminiscent of movies, for that matter. Horror movies and slashers are best when they're low budget, or made to look like it (Planet terror is a good example). I already explained in a 'games you shouldn't buy' review why unreal tournament 3 had terrible writing. Not so much because of the script in itself, but because the rest of the game looked so darn realistic. It didn't look campy or cheesy in the slightest, and that's why it failed.

But on the plus side...at least it wasn't Duke Nukem forever (linky...though you may want to skip to 5:30).


For anything else...yeah, it's been touched upon by many before me. And I tend to agree: quite some games just have TOO MUCH story. I haven't properly played through other M or FF13 to give a proper impression, but going by what others say, quite some of those long and costly cutscènes were better off not being there in the first place. And perhaps I'm turning into a indie-loving snob, but I think that way of most expensive cutscènes. They rarely add stuff.
-when comparing diablo 3 with torchlight 2 (which is pretty hard NOT to do), the former very clearly has the best cutscènes. But in the end, I couldn't bring myself to care about ANYTHING that was going on.
-From red alert 3, I found myself being pretty embarrassed by the cutscènes. It's a gripe I have with most HD stuff, come to think of it. All that details just make it clear that it's just actors standing in a carbon board decor. I actually found the original C&C movies more engaging (though that may have been to do with that I was younger then)
-bioshock infinite may have one of the best endings in recent years, but most everything up to that point was stuff I just wanted to skip. It had the worst kinds of cutscènes: the unskippable ones that were disguised as an elevator that just kept on going.


(yeah, I'll probably get some disagreeing comments because I'm implying that bioshock infinite has a bad plot, but meh...I can live with it)


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Jul 6, 2014)

There's no reason as to why games cannot have both satisfying gameplay and narratives. Saying, "Well, games are games. They don't need compelling stories so long as the gameplay is good." is just ignorant.


----------



## Pedeadstrian (Jul 7, 2014)

Taleweaver said:


> Citizen Snips!


What Newman said.

Also: Games and their stories cover a broad spectrum. At one end of the spectrum you have something like Angry Birds, where there is no story (well, there is, but come on, I can't bear to call it a story). On the other are  games like 999 where the story is the main focus, and the gameplay is only to immerse the player even more, making them feel like they're the ones that are making the decisions. Of course, you could even include visual novels that have literally no gameplay, but I'm not exactly sure if those are even/can even be defined as games. Like you said, you may be on a indie game bender, where gameplay is more of a focus than story is, and that's fine, but I and a lot of other people prefer games like RPGs, where the story is a big focus, and sometimes the main one. No one in this situation is wrong. One of my favorite games of all time is Xenosaga 3, and at times, it feels like I'm watching an actual movie. 20+ minute cutscenes are obviously not for everyone, but I loved it. I can't speak for everyone, but when I grow attached to characters, whether they be from movies, tv shows, books, or video games, I want to learn more about them. Cutscenes are a great way to do that.


----------



## zeello (Jul 7, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> And I'm not convinced that you have any legit arguments of why the script is bad other than your own opinion.


 
my argument is that if I play a game I do not want a movie. If anything trying to shoehorn a movie into a game just shows you have a low opinion of games

and I wasnt trying to drag my opinion into it, just raising an objective point, regardless of how poorly I may explain it. Writing for theater is different from writing for film, and different from writing a book, etc. Writing a 3-panel daily strip is different from writing a comic book.

Its rather arrogant in a way to put your contribution to a work above the overall quality of the work. Imagine if every staff member did that and not just the writer.


----------



## Taleweaver (Jul 7, 2014)

Hyro-Sama said:


> There's no reason as to why games cannot have both satisfying gameplay and narratives. Saying, "Well, games are games. They don't need compelling stories so long as the gameplay is good." is just ignorant.


The error in that quote is in the fact that all games get lumped up on one heap rather than dividing them into different genres into which it matters into different degrees...and not in the assumed fact that a compelling story is needed. Most 3D shooters aren't bought for the story, so it hardly matters. On the other hand, the majority of RPG's pretty much hinge on the story (visual novels even more). It's a bit shortsighted, but an RPG with a bad story is sort of like a shooter with bad weapons.

And to draw a completely different analogy: I buy most of my stuff without it having a story. This glass that's on my desk? It may have a very freaking compelling story on how it evolved from the sands of some distant shore where it got collected, burned into molten glass that was forged into the glass it is, how it got shipped to a factory, a store and finally in my hands...but I don't give a damn about it. It won't make a better glass because of it, even though there is no reason why it cannot both be a good container for drinking liquids and have a strong compelling narrative.


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 7, 2014)

zeello said:


> my argument is that if I play a game I do not want a movie. If anything trying to shoehorn a movie into a game if anything just shows you have a low opinion of games
> 
> and I wasnt trying to drag my opinion into it, just raising an objective point, regardless of how poorly I may explain it. Writing for theater is different from writing for film, and different from writing a book, etc. Writing a 3-panel daily strip is different from writing a comic book.
> 
> Its rather arrogant in a way to put your contribution to a work above the overall quality of the work. Imagine if every staff member did that and not just the writer.


 
But the writer, in this case, is the director of the game... he literally sets the bar of the overall quality of the work. That's why there is a skip cutscene button since like forever. That's why cut scenes have checkpoints positioned in a way so you can skip canon excuses, which are slideshows anyway and continue with the actual plot while skipping good 10-30 minutes. The Writer is fully aware of the fact that these cutscenes are long and unappealing to some, it would be dumb if he wouldn't but he also doesn't want to make many parts of his script optional at least back in the day he did. But back in the day he also did MGS2 which was the biggest troll move in the entire gaming community. If you don't like the length of these cutscenes then is fully subjective. There is no objectivity in saying the cutscenes are too long when they are technically good, exiting and enjoyable to watch. No one ever created a rule saying that VG cutscenes have to be as short as possible. That's why they work so well in MGS. Back in the day on PS1 it was mind blowing having a fully narrated game with a really good movie style story with gameplay sections in between. It was like playing a game and watching a movie simultaneously.
And Kojima prodictions is aware that long cutscenes turn people off. That's why they literally said that the series innovates itself. That's why Peace Walker and Phantom Pain have and will have relatively shorter cutscenes while focusing more on the gameplay. That's why the Guys behind Monster hunter, a game with technically no plot and full focus on gameplay, helped Kojipro with peace walker to create bossfights that can be tackled in Co-op. That's why Kojipro released Ground Zeroes. It's not a 30$ 2H demo like most people probably like to call it but rather as a 5 hours game where you spend most of the time *not* watching cutscenes but actually playing the game. This time around without any collaborations. Heck most of the story in Ground Zeroes is a unlockble and can be listened to while playing the game. If they had added the parts you listen to as cutscenes the game would've been a hour longer and less people would bitch about how short Ground zeroes is. Again, a obvious downgrade made for the sake of increasing the time you spend playing the game. And both Peace Walker and Phantom Pain will and already have a ungodly amount of replay value. Which is a obvious positive from a gamplay standpoint.


----------



## zeello (Jul 7, 2014)

you don't know how long a cutscene is before skipping it. If a cutscene is only 10 seconds more then I'd like to wait it out. if its 30 minutes more then I wish I had skipped it ssooner. If I skip ANY cutscenes for that matter it would have been better to do so at the very beginning of the cutscene, not watch half of it only to skip the rest.

skipping cutscenes is not an excuse. Its there as a last resort and means something is wrong with the cutscenes. Its like if a game had terrible voice acting that makes you skip the cutscenes, but since you can skip them you give the acting a 10/10 saying ' they can be skipped anyway'. Also the problem is. what if I don't skip the cutscenes? What if I wait it out but my experience suffers as a result?

OK so you admitted mgs2 is not great.

Do you not think that MGS is a series that has not handled popularity gracefully? MGS was a runaway success "hmm people like cutscenes, let's have even more of them" and it just goes out of control because nobody is willing to say when too much is too much and someone does they are silenced or ppl attempt to ridicule that person.

we can agree that its objectively bad if a cutscene is too long. But whether a cutscene is too long or not is subjective.

Being exciting to watch is no excuse. By that logic you could just stock a game s narrative with all your favorite movies. Its basically your underlying argument.The writing is good in a vacuum and that trumps all. You might as well interrupt the game with cat videos from YouTube, and excerpts from Twilight books because Kojima likes Twilight and it's his game damn it. All that matters is that those cat videos are exciting to watch.

"have and will have shorter cutscenes" OK soooo I had a point?

"MGS games are the greatest and Kojima ia a great man and not afraid to ask for help but can do anything by himself" OK OK but I only mentioned the writing. And I have not played Peace Walker except the demo but found issues with the controls/camera. (and the fact you can't pause the game, which I hear isnt like that in the full game but nonetheless doesnt improve my confidence in the full product, even more so considering everything I already know about mgs series)


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 7, 2014)

zeello said:


> you don't know how long a cutscene is before skipping it.


But now that I told you that slideshows in these games are basically used to explain canon, which you shouldn't care about unless you like headaches, you can easily skip those.



> OK so you admitted mgs2 is not great.


No I didn't. It's one of the first games I have ever seen and my favorite MGS game. What I meant is that given the context of the day back then I can understand why averyone was pissed at this game. It wasn't because it's a bad game or anything like that but rather because Kojima decided to be smart and predict what gaming in the future will be about. a hype train manipulating the fans into wanting a game through limited information. It's a post modern game after all. What MGS2 did on purpose was done out of covered up stupidity in FF13. I can talk hours about that. But how about I link a video that spends time talking about that.



> Do you not think that MGS is a series that has not handled popularity gracefully? MGS was a runaway success "hmm people like cutscenes, let's have even more of them" and it just goes out of control because nobody is willing to say when too much is too much and someone does they are silenced or ppl attempt to ridicule that person.


Dude, you can also be someone who says digimon is equally awesome as pokemon and you still get shitstormed to death by pokeboys no matter how right you might be. That's life on the internet, yo.



> we can agree that its objectively bad if a cutscene is too long.


we can't. Because it isn't. There are no guidelines saying how long a cutscene has to be. If you don't like it it's your taste, nothing else.



> Being exciting to watch is no excuse. By that logic you could just stock a game s narrative with all your favorite movies. Its basically your underlying argument.The writing is good in a vacuum and that trumps all. You might as well interrupt the game with cat videos from YouTube, and excerpts from Twilight books because Kojima likes Twilight and it's his game damn it. He has full creative control and that makes the game his soap box.


I don't get your point here.



> "have and will have shorter cutscenes" OK soooo I had a point?


Developers want to make money. There is a certain amount of things that need change for mass appeal. The sales broke records with MGS 1 for PS1 and remained steady for the main releases since. A company obviously wants to grow and expand the audience while trying to balance things out. MGS having long cutscenes isn't perfect but it's far from being objectively bad. if for every 3 people liking long cutscenes there is one disliking the cutscenes then it's obvious that a company should try to appeal to all four people. In other word, they try to appeal to people like you while not fucking up for people like me and after playing Ground Zeroes and Peace Walker I'm convinced that they do a good job about that.



> "MGS games are the greatest and Kojima ia a great man and not afraid to ask for help but can do anything by himself"


I haven't said that 



> OK OK but I only mentioned the writing. And I have not played Peace Walker except the demo but found issues with the controls/camera. (and the fact you can't pause the game, which I hear isnt like that in the full game but nonetheless reeks of MGS series up to its usual antics and only serves to discourage me from getting there full game)


It is pausable if played solo. In multiplayer it obviously isn't. I can't tell how the controls were on the PSP but given the fact that it has 2 less buttons a one less stick I assume it was bad. Play the HD version then. It on both PS3 and 360.


----------



## zeello (Jul 7, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> I don't get your point here.


You're saying it doesn't matter if the cutscenes are too long for a game. You're saying all it matters is that they cutscenes are fun to watch but I disagree.

If a game is a visual novel then its OK for the cutscenes to be much much longer. But since MGS is not then different rules apply. It does not matter how good the cutscenes are in a vacuum because aside from good writing I want a good game and if the writing makes the game worse then its arguably bad writing.



> Developers want to make money. There is a certain amount of things that need change for mass appeal.


so not only I had point but I was objectively right? 



> .if for every 3 people liking long cutscenes there is one disliking the cutscenes then it's obvious that a company should try to appeal to all four people.


The wants of the four are not mutually exclusive. The 3 won't suddenly hate MGS series if the cutscenes were a little shorter. Likewise if the cutscenes were 20 hours long then out of those 3 fans, 2 of them or maybe even all 3 of them might still like it but that isnt a reason to do make 20 hour cutscenes. More to the point, if the cutscenes were that long, it would be bad writing.



> It is pausable if played solo. In multiplayer it obviously isn't. I can't tell how the controls were on the PSP but given the fact that it has 2 less buttons a one less stick I assume it was bad.


 
MGS2 and 3 had access to two sticks but did not use both. So I guess you assume they are bad?


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 7, 2014)

zeello said:


> If a game is a visual novel then its OK for the cutscenes to be much much longer. But since MGS is not then different rules apply.


If the context of these cutscenes really pisses you off that much then maybe you'll be enjoying them more when watching the graphical novel for MGS 1 & 2. Peace walker even uses this graphical novel styled cutscenes to tell its story.



> so not only I had point but I was objectively right?


If you are an artist that needs to be interpreted, yes. If you are in a argument trying to make a point, no.
You haven't used any these arguments. You didn't say the writing in MGS need to be shortened or have more gameplay portions in between them for higher mass appeal. You said long cutscenes are bad because you don't like them. 



> The wants of the four are not mutually exclusive. The 3 won't suddenly hate MGS series if the cutscenes were a little shorter.


You don't know the MGS community then. There are even rumors of people sending Kojima death threats if he doesn't make a sequel.



> MGS2 and 3 had access to two sticks but did not use both. So I guess you assume they are bad?


 
Yes, the controls for these two games do suck balls. Luckily, MGS3 got a 3DS port that fixed that issue (when you play with circle pad pro that is). As for MGS2 you have stick to the outdated crap controls unfortunately. 
One would think that in the HD collections of these games they would fix that but I guess I shall be wrong about that. This probably my biggest critique point about these re-releases.


----------



## zeello (Jul 7, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> If the context of these cutscenes really pisses you off that much then maybe you'll be enjoying them more when watching the graphical novel for MGS 1 & 2. Peace walker even uses this graphical novel styled cutscenes to tell its story.


Well if they could just release a comic book to elaborate everything they wanted to in the story then maybe they should have done that instead?



> You haven't used any these arguments. You didn't say the writing in MGS need to be shortened or have more gameplay portions in between them for higher mass appeal. You said long cutscenes are bad because you don't like them.


I'm saying two things 1) it is possible for cutscenes to be too long, and 2) that it is safe to say MGS series could have benefitted from shorter cutscenes

I don't see what is so controversial about either of those statements.



> You don't know the MGS community then. There are even rumors of people sending Kojima death threats if he doesn't make a sequel.


so I guess what you're saying is, the fans are objectively right?

p.s.man I hope the death threat sending guy isnt you



> Yes, the controls for these two games do suck balls. Luckily, MGS3 got a 3DS port that fixed that issue (when you play with circle pad pro that is). As for MGS2 you have stick to the outdated crap controls unfortunately.
> One would think that in the HD collections of these games they would fix that but I guess I shall be wrong about that. This probably my biggest critique point about these re-releases.


well color me surprised. you said something critical of an MGS game o.o


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 7, 2014)

zeello said:


> Well if they could just release a comic book to elaborate everything they wanted to in the story then maybe they should have done that instead?


But they don't. I watched both of them and I really wasn't having such of blast as if I was playing these games. Which is usually a sign of videogame writing working for video games only. Which is also a sign of MGS writing not being bad simply because the cutscenes are long.
The writing has other problems and you disagreed with me right on my first post in this argument, retconning and creating excuses for sequels.



> I don't see what is so controversial about either of those statements.


both statements don't have arguments to back them up. The "because" is missing. Which shouldn't be missing in a argument.



> so I guess what you're saying is, the fans are objectively right?


No, I was just saying that you don't know how easy it is to piss some fans off. Fans are subjective as fuck. But they are a reliable audience money source though.



> p.s.man I hope the death threat sending guy isnt you


 
To do that I would've to care about canon, which I don't. Caring about MGS canon is like caring if Jesus and the good lord did actually exist. It's a mystery with many contradictions, retcons and plot holes that shall remain mysteries for eternity.


----------



## zeello (Jul 7, 2014)

I dunno why when writing games they never figure out there will be a sequel. Especially when its a mega popular game like MGS. "This series makes lots of money which is why after this game there will be no more sequels ever. EVER" *next day* "y'know, on second thought..."

"because" because it is a rule that applies to every other medium? and because many gamers agree? and because it is a gaming title, not a movie? at some point it is common sense

"you don't know" what makes you presume I don't know? you keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with the topic. Here you implied that a series should cater to those who send death threats.

"is like caring if Jesus and the good lord actually exist"
yea why would anyone care about that. besides every christian ever

"shall remain mysteries for eternity"
hint: they don't exist

also, you said MGS2 is one of the first games you ever saw. So I am arguing with like a little kid from another dimension or something. Not sure if there is a point. "yea the controls suck but I love these 40 minute cutscenes" aha... I'll be on my way then


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 7, 2014)

zeello I really stop having fun at this. You really are too ignorant to be reasoned with and fail to tell a difference between subjective opinions and objective opinions.Like, I'm still not even sure if you actually ever finished a Metal Gear game. Yet still you think you are in a position to say that the series writing is objectively bad while pointing out reasons that are not the source of the problem. Not that you would even show interest into finding the root of the problem out since your opinion is sacred and untouchable. If you are grown up then at least act as one. I'm hating on FF13 games because I played them and know what I'm talking about. You, during neither of your post, seem to know what you are talking about. You also expect long cutscenes to be automatically objectively bad because of common sense. That's dumbest argument I have ever heard. Somehow common sense, something that every human has, still doesn't stand in the way of the series selling millions of copies. Somehow common sense didn't stop Heavy rain and beyond two souls perform well despite having bad plot's and literally only QTE gameplay. I would really think that through again if I were you.


----------



## Arras (Jul 7, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> zeello I really stop having fun at this. You really are too ignorant to be reasoned with and* fail to tell a difference between subjective opinions and objective opinions.* Like, I'm still not even sure if you actually ever finished a Metal Gear game. Yet still you think you are in a position to say that the series writing is objectively bad while pointing out reasons that are not the source of the problem. Not that you would even show interest into finding the root of the problem out since your opinion is sacred and untouchable. If you are grown up then at least act as one. I'm hating on FF13 games because I played them and know what I'm talking about. You, during neither of your post, seem to know what you are talking about. You also expect long cutscenes to be automatically objectively bad because of common sense. That's dumbest argument I have ever heard. Somehow common sense, something that every human has, still doesn't stand in the way of the series selling millions of copies. Somehow common sense didn't stop Heavy rain and beyond two souls perform well despite having bad plot's and literally only QTE gameplay. I would really think that through again if I were you.


I know that probably wasn't your point, but objective opinions don't exist. An opinion is subjective by definition.


----------



## zeello (Jul 7, 2014)

XrosBlader821 said:


> zeello I really stop having fun at this. You really are too ignorant to be reasoned with and fail to tell a difference between subjective opinions and objective opinions.Like, I'm still not even sure if you actually ever finished a Metal Gear game. Yet still you think you are in a position to say that the series wryiting is objectively bad while pointing out reasons that are not the source of the problem.


I was merely citing examples of bad writing in gaming. I did not say those games didn't have good writing or that all of the writing is bad. I only pointed out the slip-ups or negative aspects.



> Not that you would even show interest into finding the root of the problem out since your opinion is sacred and untouchable.


The root of the problem is not the writing to begin with.
Also I admire the ego behind your sentence. "only I know what is wrong with MGS series. You would have known too if you had done the research" You remind me of myself. xD



> If you are grown up then at least act as one. I'm hating on FF13 games because I played them and know what I'm talking about. You, during neither of your post, seem to know what you are talking about. You also expect long cutscenes to be automatically objectively bad because of common sense.


If they are too long then yes. Long cutscenes arent out of the question but you shouldnt go overboard. You say I don't know what I'm talking about but I'm only really saying that one thing. I don't see what there is to argue with unless you think MGS scenes technically don't break this rule since they are either not that long or so good that its worth it. Also, I should add a point in my defense: games are young, and diverse, so it's up in the air what the correct cutscene length for a certain genre should be, but in theory an ideal cutscene lemgtyh does exist and it stands to reason that the longer a cutscene the more likely it becomes too long.

Also if I sit down every night to play for one hour it isn't a bad thing to get roughly thee same amount of cutscenes and gameplay in each session. Not that one night is impromptu 'watch cutscenes' night.



> Somehow common sense didn't stop Heavy rain and beyond two souls perform well despite having bad plot's and literally only QTE gameplay. I would really think that through again if I were you.


OK but no you don't get to do that, Heavy Rain is a story game, that's the whole point. I even mentioned visual novels which is basically what Heavy Rain is. Visual novels are comic books. Heavy Rain is a movie. MGS on the other hand is trying to be a real game at the same time. At some point after all the cutscenes I am going to have to play it.

also its funny I just invoked the impromptu cutscenes night example right before reading this. Because if I played Heavy Rain one hour every night then at least I can expect one full hour of interactive cutscenes, not that on some nights I simply watch cutscenes and never get to do anything while other nights I get a dancing game and can't progress the story until I master a certain song.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jul 7, 2014)

Some games are story focused, others are not. Just because you're not story focused doesn't mean you have a bad narrative, it's just not as in-depth.

Like a game like Vanquish has a goofy narrative but it's serviceable, it wasn't designed for anything more.


----------



## codezer0 (Jul 7, 2014)

It's pretty well known that back in the 8-bit days, most console QA done was pretty much just caring whether the game will boot up and play more than whether the writing was properly localized. This is why we got so much engrish back then.

As to why it still happens now? Well, I'd blame cultural xenophobia and a prideful sense of themselves, like they just don't *expletive* care what anyone outside of Nippon thinks.

Then we have companies like LJN back then who just didn't even care about quality or disregarded QA entirely, and were simply focused on pushing out as many titles per year as they could in the hopes that at least one of them could actually be successful; hindsight is 20/20, but considering it was an age before the internet, timely reviews from anyone who wasn't just renting a copy were hard to come by, so marketing tended to con a great many into thinking it was better than it really was. Annoyingly, that kind of crap still happens.


----------



## CathyRina (Jul 7, 2014)

> If they are too long then yes. Long cutscenes arent out of the question but you shouldnt go overboard. You say I don't know what I'm talking about but I'm only really saying that one thing. I don't see what there is to argue with unless you think MGS scenes technically don't break this rule since they are either not that long or so good that its worth it.


Let me put it this way. When I played my first metal Gear Solid game 3 years ago (MGS3 for 3DS btw.) I started playing in the evening and had to stop after my alarm clock started notifying me that I've played through the whole night. I've been so sucked in by this game that I didn't even notice how long I was playing. That was an unusual experience, I usually can't play the same game for longer than 2 hours straight. I have too much free time... Anyway I assume that the cutscenes need to be good because it wasn't the gameplay. Heck I sucked at this game back then I remember using a sniper rifle to eliminate guards because I couldn't find a way to sneak past them. God, I was so stupid back then for not figuring the gameplay out.



> Also if I sit down every night to play for one hour it isn't a bad thing to get roughly thee same amount of cutscenes and gameplay in each session. Not that one night is impromptu 'watch cutscenes' night.


God, finally a legit argument. You're right! If you play only for one hour then these games are fuck*ng awful. But as far as I see it they are meant to be played for more than an hour straight... I mean after the final boss in MGS4 you have literally an hour long cutscene.
If you dislike all the metal gears for the length of the cutscenes Peace Walker, Rising Revengence, Ground Zeroes (don't buy it, rent it) and The Phantom Pain are probably the ones designed for you. I was playing through some missions of peace walker as we spoken and the average playtime was from 8 minutes to 30 Minutes with like 5 - 10 Minute cutscenes per story mission. Excluding the opening and ending cutscenes as they have a bigger job to do. There is like 120 side missions and all can be even done in coop. And between every Mission you build up your own base, develop new items to tackle missions differently, upgrade your items etc., recruit soldiers for your army. It feels more like a game than a movie since you as a player have a bigger impact on the progress. Same for Rising which is a platinum spin off, which means it's gotta be silly and fully aware of that. Don't buy Ground Zeroes. You probably should rent it and then decide whenever or not you want to buy The Phantom Pain. TPP is taking all features from Peace Walker and expanding them while adding open world on top of it (although coop wasn't announced yet but there will be online multiplayer) And like said earlier I spend 90% of the time playing a game rather than watching cutscenes in my 5 hours play though of Ground Zeroes so it can't be that bad, right?
I could go in detail about that but I think we came to a conclusion. I'd like to end this conversation for the sake of this thread.


----------

