# The escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict



## Taleweaver (May 16, 2018)

Note in advance: I'm not sure if there are other threads on this. I can't find recent ones, and...well...despite the populace being at each others throats for many years, things have escalated heavily over the last days.

The recent uprising seems to have two causes:

1) the movement of the Israelian American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jeruzalem. Trump's stance on the mess in the region is at least simple to explain: "Israel is correct". And since Israel claims Jeruzalem as their capital, the move should be legal...right? Of course not: The Palestinians hava also always claimed Jeruzalem as their main capital, and they obviously disagree to being called terrorists by a certain blonde foreigner.
So the least you can say is that the act was controversial. I'm neither Arab nor Jewish, but it would seem to me that it was just unnecessary cruel.

2) the 70th birthday of what Palestines call "Al-Nakba". From what I can find, Palestine was part of the Ottoman empire that lost the first world war. As a result, it was annexed by France and England, who agreed with the world Zionist organisation that it would become a home for Jews. This obviously led to a large influx of Jews, especially after the holocaust. The local Arabs never had any say in the treaties, so this lead to uproar in itself. This escalated when France and England left. The forming of Israel as a country directly resulted in hundreds of thousands of forced Palestinians evacuations in 1948 (the Nakba).

This sort of history isn't pretty. No matter what justification, you wouldn't like it if someone forced you out of your home. And that's what's been going on but on a much larger scale. With riots, cease-fires and wars for seventy years now. Israel has called Hamas (the political Palestinian group who want to take back their annexed country) terrorists ever since the word became popular. But it's getting harder to convince the rest of the world of that claim (unless you're leader of the USA, that is).

In any case...these two things combined have lead to some horrible news. In the just opened American embassy, you see smiling faces: Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner getting blessed. Benjamin Nethanyahu saying it's a great day for peace.
...and meanwhile, on the Palestinian side of the border (no, not ON the border: on _their side_ of the border) Israelian snipers and drones fire en masse at unarmed protesters. Shooting to kill, according to independent reporters (that is, if you consider amnesty international independent).
At the end of the day, the sad result is 68 dead (among which 8 kids and a baby) and well over thousand wounded. Oh, and apparently one light wounded Israelian soldier.

The scary thing isn't so much that most Israelian civilians have no clue about this massacre at their borders (of course they've got reason to celebrate: the country celebrates its seventieth birthday, and America supports their claim on "their" rightful holy city*). It's the audacity to not even bother covering up what they're doing. The Israelian diplomate in Belgium, for example, flat out called the protesters - even the children - terrorists. Nethanyahu thinks that every country would do the same thing they did to prevent their population from harmless protesters.

<*sigh*>

As said, this conflict isn't new. Europe doesn't want to get its hand dirty and USA protects Israel (guess who vetoed the call for an independent investigation on this massacre). Nethanyahu claims being innocent. Palestine is too busy burying its dead and treating their wounded to have any say in the matter.

...

I'm not sure if I dare ask for opinions on the matter, so let me ask a more direct question: is what I'm saying news to you?

(here in Belgium, you've gotta live under a rock not to have noticed it. But I fear this "everyone knows"-thing isn't as everyone-including as I think it is)



*small footnote: from what I can gather, Israel agreed to the United Nations to co-exist with Palestine somewhat after the Nakba. This agreement included that Jeruzalem was to be given to Palestine


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## The Catboy (May 16, 2018)

What Trump did was easily the stupidest thing he's done since he's been in the Oval Office and that's saying something. He damn well knew that this would make matters worse and did it anyways because he's an asshole and he wants to start a war. It's pretty obvious that he wants to drag the US back into the Middle East because he wants to start a war and he doesn't care what causes it to happen.


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## Taleweaver (May 16, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> What Trump did was easily the stupidest thing he's done since he's been in the Oval Office and that's saying something. He damn well knew that this would make matters worse and did it anyways because he's an asshole and he wants to start a war. It's pretty obvious that he wants to drag the US back into the Middle East because he wants to start a war and he doesn't care what causes it to happen.


I'd say that in terms of stupidity, it's about up to par with that "I've got the largest nuclear button!!!"-debacle with North Korea. But in terms of outcome, this is far worse. A next president can undo some damage that Donald does, but no one will be able to revive the deaths caused by this series of events.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

The media are pushing a false narrative about the conflict and it's kind of sickening to see it play out. For those not in the know, the Gaza strip is governed by HAMAS, a known terrorist organisation. The current "protest" is an elaborate smoke screen that's supposed to divert attention from an organised effort by HAMAS to breach the border and do as much damage as possible - they're literally shipping their militia operatives through tire smoke, people armed with pipe bombs, grenades and wire cutters, using civilians as human shields. They're not subtle about it either - one of their leaders, Yahya Sinwar, announced on *national television* back in early April that HAMAS is going to organise a push on the fence, breach the border and "tear their [Jewish] hearts out", now it's mid-may, they're doing exactly what they promised they would and somehow it's Israel's fault. The "evil Jews" are just randomly shooting Palestinians, 10 of whom, as it turns out, were active members of HAMAS and another 3 were a part of Islamic Jihad, another terrorist group - random chance, they just happened to be there, complete coincidence.

The idea that this is some kind of Israeli offensive against Palestinians is preposterous - Israel has complete land and air superiority in the region, they could wipe out Gaza if they wanted to. HAMAS knows this which is why they will not engage in direct armed conflict - they will instead hide their missile sites in schools, their terrorist cells in hospitals and their soldiers in crowds of civilians willing to die for the cause just to make Israel face sanctions when they retaliate and civilians inevitably get hit in the crossfire. It's absolutely disgusting, but Israel is not the aggressor here - they're entitled to defend their land from foreign incursion which is all they're doing here, it's all they have been doing since Israel was established. Time after time Israel was attacked by neighbouring states and we're just supposed to pretend that the only true democracy in the middle east is the aggressor when they've always been on the defensive.

As for Jerusalem, it is the eternal capital of Israel - the only reason why the site is relevant in any way is because it was relevant to the Jews first. The decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem was made by Congress way back in 1995 - Clinton was too scared to do it, Bush was too scared to do it, Obama was too scared to do it, finally Trump came along and did what's right by recognising that the capital of Israel is in fact Jerusalem and that's where the embassy belongs. Not only do I think this is the right thing to do, it is my hope that other countries follow suit.

I too have heard of the Palestinian child that died when tear gas was deployed, of course it's very sad. Why the mother would take a child to an area of active conflict is beyond me, but that's besides the point. The point is that Jews have had a presence in the area for well over 3000 years. Jerusalem is the holiest place in these people's religion, it is older than the oldest symbol you could find in America, or most other countries for that matter, and it is not close. Jews have went through a lot in history, they didn't exactly have it easy, but now a nation that was nearly exterminated finally reclaimed the one place on the planet they can call home and all they're facing is outright blood libel. What right do we have to judge them for defending what is rightfully theirs, theirs in historical terms and theirs through international recognition?

Israel is an independent nation and their border is under siege, that's all there is to it, and the civilian casualties are not their fault - not when there is armed personel carrying grenades and pipe bombs ready kill Israeli citizens as soon as they can slip past the border and the IDF soldiers guarding it. The conflict could end tomorrow if HAMAS wanted it to end - they could accept the partition and move on, but they choose to fight.

I know exactly how to differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys here - Palestinians are free to live in Israel and practice their religion, so are Christians and any other group. Gays, lesbians and other LGBT minorities are free to live their lives in peace. Every citizen is free to participate in Israeli elections, so much so that there are sitting ministers in the government who are actively calling for the dissolution of the state they're governing - that's acceptable because Israel is free. Conversely, on the other side gays are hung from cranes, Jews and Christians are actively persecuted and killed, Jewish visitors to the Temple Mount are not legally allowed to pray at their holiest site and terrorists are in charge of the government. There isn't a grey area here, the sides are very clear and it's really shocking to see that this is somehow a controversy, still, after years of conflict.

Just to be clear, this isn't an opinion of the staff, it's not representative of the site - it's just my opinion. I hope the protests quiet down soon, nobody wants to see civilians killed, but sometimes the use of force is justified.


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## Viri (May 17, 2018)

Jerusalem, is the capital of Israel. They can bitch and moan all they want about it, but it's the truth.


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## lolboy (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> HAMAS, a known terrorist organisation.



This is the problem with world. Enemies can just declare each other as “terrorists” to justify their massacre, because they will find ways to blame it on the “terrorist”.

I consider Israel as terror state and Hamas as terror orginazation. Both should be stopped.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

lolboy said:


> This is the problem with world. Enemies can just declare each other as “terrorists” to justify their massacre, because they will find ways to blame it on the “terrorist”.
> 
> I consider Israel as terror state and Hamas as terror orginazation. Both should be stopped.


There's a very clear definition of what a terrorist is - a terrorist is a person who wants to achieve political objectives through means of violence and, you guessed it, terror. I don't remember Israel ever sending Jews in bomb vests over the border and into Arab territory to kill helpless Muslims, I do however remember the Arab-Israeli War, when Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen have decided that Israel has no right to exist, Jews all need to be killed and together they merrily invaded Israel on exactly the same day the British Mandate over Palestine expired. They did this with a clear intention of pushing Jews out of the region completely and claiming it for Palestinians in direct violation of the UN partition plan. It hadn't even been a full day since Israel declared independence that its immediate neighbours have tried to destroy it, and they have been trying to destroy it ever since. It's easy to accuse a state of being a "terror state" when all they do is fight, but it's generally wise to make an effort and find out why they fight.


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## kumikochan (May 17, 2018)

I have seen most of the videos of the people getting shot and all i could see was people holding kids in the air using them as shields while throwing molotov cocktails and the other people getting shot wich you can clearly see in the videos breached the fence and are trying to cut it with a wire cutter but the whole world moans about the deaths of terrorists who use children as shields while using rocks in a slingshot wich can murder people and throwing cocktails while all the officials stay behind in their mansions fattening up the people with lies with their big orchestrated play for the whole world to see. Glad that a lot of people aren't that blind and see through all the acting.
People probably already have seen these 2 videos but it says enough about most of the Muslim countries surrounding Israel.


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## lolboy (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't remember Israel ever sending Jews in bomb vests over the border and into Arab territory to kill helpless Muslims



No need for that when you got fighter jets and tanks which can destroy entire buildings.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

lolboy said:


> No need for that when you got fighter jets and tanks which can destroy entire buildings.


Buildings full of terrorists are fine to demolish as far as I'm concerned. Buildings full of missiles aimed at my people would be on my demo list too if I were faced with a non-stop onslaught of aggression.


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## lolboy (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Buildings full of terrorists are fine to demolish as far as I'm concerned. Buildings full of missiles aimed at my people would be on my demo list too if I were faced with a non-stop onslaught of aggression.



Yes...all buildings are full of terrorists according to Israel and their supporters.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

lolboy said:


> Yes...all buildings are full of terrorists according to Israel and their supporters.


Ah yes, it's an evil conspiracy, the Juden are up to their old tricks. Give me a break, they just want to live in peace without worrying that a bus full of explosives will ram through their walls.


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## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> As for Jerusalem, it is the eternal capital of Israel - the only reason why the site is relevant in any way is because it was relevant to the Jews first. The decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem was made by Congress way back in 1995 - Clinton was too scared to do it, Bush was too scared to do it, Obama was too scared to do it, finally Trump came along and did what's right by recognising that the capital of Israel is in fact Jerusalem and that's where the embassy belongs. Not only do I think this is the right thing to do, it is my hope that other countries follow suit.


Perhaps none of the other presidents did it because they knew it would ignite a larger conflict within the entire region?  I wonder if you'll be defending another war in the Middle East, probably with Iran, with the same passion.  I think the majority of Americans truly are sick and tired of being the world's police, and this is actually worse in that we'd be starting a conflict to defend another country's interests.  Of course, if there's anything to find amusing in this grim-looking situation, it's that Trump's supporters in the majority hate (((globalists))), aka Israel, aka Jews, but Trump is willing to play ball with anyone for money.


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## Clydefrosch (May 17, 2018)

to be honest, i'd be all for closing off jerusalem for everyone, like us, the rest of the world, putting an end to this. throw everyone out, put the biggest cluster of nuclear weapons in the center and have them blow up if anyone gets close.
if they have any respect for their holy site, they will leave it be.

both sides have pulled some more than shady stunts in this conflict, though its quite obvious that isreal is the mayor force in the conflict and that palestinians are simply resorting to the only chance they have to compete, which is terrorism styled warfare. 
implying that its all elaborated smokescreens and theatrics for the sake of just being terrorists is bullshit, its just the only choice they have against isreali forces, outside of letting themselves be displaced again and again for a few decades as isreal claims more ground, until one day they're all dead and gone.

the entire conflict is pretty much unresolvable at this point, as both sides (as in the general population) can only view the other as cruel and wrong and better off gone forever. noone alive in either country has been around for the start of this, generations all grew up with it going on, learning and ingraining that the other side wants them dead. its a bloodfeud if there ever was one, there is no rational way for it to end without one side being entirely decimated or both sides being forced  to stop by an outside power.
and its clear that the last one isn't happening.

trump moving the embassy was a terrible move, as it pretty much gives legitimation to isreals plans of expansion, which is obviously threatening for palestine, considering isreal has all the firepower in the world to end them if the world wasn't watching. and even that isn't much of a deterent anymore.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Perhaps none of the other presidents did it because they knew it would ignite a larger conflict within the entire region?  I wonder if you'll be defending another war in the Middle East, probably with Iran, with the same passion.  I think the majority of Americans truly are sick and tired of being the world's police, and this is actually worse in that we'd be starting a conflict to defend another country's interests.  Of course, if there's anything to find amusing in this grim-looking situation, it's that Trump's supporters in the majority hate (((globalists))), aka Israel, aka Jews, but Trump is willing to play ball with anyone for money.


Will I support a war against an oppressive state that funds terrorism across the globe and threatens the freedom of not just its immediate neighbours, but also our own, should such a war break out? Absolutely and wholeheartedly. I don't understand how one couldn't - the governments and organisations we're discussing here are *openly hostile* to anyone who's not Muslim, is this even a real choice? In the face of an attack one must defend themselves. As for Trump (nice use of the echo sign, do you know it's considered hate speech?), so far he's managed to end the Korean War through shitposting on Twitter - be it by genius design or by accident fueled by idiocy he's achieved something no previous administration could even dream of accomplishing, no matter what concessions they offered - I'll happily put my money on a blind horse as long as it knows how to win races.


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## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Will I support a war against an oppressive state that funds terrorism across the globe and threatens the freedom of not just its immediate neighbours, but also our own, should such a war break out? Absolutely and wholeheartedly.


Rofl, and you're completely tone deaf as to how the US would look like the aggressors in that situation?  Iran held up their end of the nuclear agreement until Trump reneged on it, and AFAIK they still hold the agreement with other nations that didn't bail.  What the fuck would we hope to accomplish there in the end, anyway?  Another 15-year quagmire like Iraq or Afghanistan?  The US gains nothing, all we'd be doing is spilling American blood and raising the price of oil to the benefit of mostly Russian interests.



Foxi4 said:


> be it by genius design or by accident field with idiocy he's achieved something no previous administration could even dream of accomplishing, no matter what concessions they offered - I'll happily put my money on a blind horse as long as it knows how to win races.


Yup, speeding up nuclear proliferation and escalating conflicts worldwide while fucking up what few diplomatic opportunities you do have (N Korea).  "Winning" in the Charlie Sheen sense.


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## Taleweaver (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The media are pushing a false narrative about the conflict and it's kind of sickening to see it play out. For those not in the know, the Gaza strip is governed by HAMAS, a known terrorist organisation. The current "protest" is an elaborate smoke screen that's supposed to divert attention from an organised effort by HAMAS to breach the border and do as much damage as possible - they're literally shipping their militia operatives through tire smoke, people armed with pipe bombs, grenades and wire cutters, using civilians as human shields. They're not subtle about it either - one of their leaders, Yahya Sinwar, announced on *national television* back in early April that HAMAS is going to organise a push on the fence, breach the border and "tear their [Jewish] hearts out", now it's mid-may, they're doing exactly what they promised they would and somehow it's Israel's fault. The "evil Jews" are just randomly shooting Palestinians, 10 of whom, as it turns out, were active members of HAMAS and another 3 were a part of Islamic Jihad, another terrorist group - random chance, they just happened to be there, complete coincidence.
> 
> The idea that this is some kind of Israeli offensive against Palestinians is preposterous - Israel has complete land and air superiority in the region, they could wipe out Gaza if they wanted to. HAMAS knows this which is why they will not engage in direct armed conflict - they will instead hide their missile sites in schools, their terrorist cells in hospitals and their soldiers in crowds of civilians willing to die for the cause just to make Israel face sanctions when they retaliate and civilians inevitably get hit in the crossfire. It's absolutely disgusting, but Israel is not the aggressor here - they're entitled to defend their land from foreign incursion which is all they're doing here, it's all they have been doing since Israel was established. Time after time Israel was attacked by neighbouring states and we're just supposed to pretend that the only true democracy in the middle east is the aggressor when they've always been on the defensive.
> 
> ...


A good, well-thought and well-written post. I like it for that, though I don't agree with a lot of stuff.

* hamas is indeed known for using weapons for their political means. I obviously don't approve of it, but that doesn't automatically makes them terrorists. The way I see it, there is simply no way to properly talk about reaching a peaceful solution. One of the articles I've recently read talks about peace-seeking groups (on both sides of the border) becoming more and more marginalized.
* when I said that Israelians shot Palestines on their side of the border, I meant exactly that. The "border" on the premise is a 300 meter 'no go' zone, with barb wire marking the end of it. It wouldn't be pretty but at least somewhat understandable if the protesters marched in that no go zone and got shot there. But that isn't what happened: they shot to up to 500 meter in Palestinian territory.
* I mentioned the protesters were unarmed, right? Okay, perhaps a few carried rocks or self-made molotov-cocktails, but the general idea was a peaceful protest. Like people have the right to do around the world. And that includes members of organisations as well.
* so hamas hides in school, hospitals and the like. of course it would be much easier for Israel if they just sat out in the open with bright red "SHOOT ME" signs on their head, but shouldn't the question be: why do these schools, hospitals and the like accept all this? It goes back to the first point, but hamas is popular with the population because they believe in the end goal (and I'm sure they hate the weapons as much as anyone).


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Taleweaver said:


> A good, well-thought and well-written post. I like it for that, though I don't agree with a lot of stuff.
> 
> * hamas is indeed known for using weapons for their political means. I obviously don't approve of it, but that doesn't automatically makes them terrorists. The way I see it, there is simply no way to properly talk about reaching a peaceful solution. One of the articles I've recently read talks about peace-seeking groups (on both sides of the border) becoming more and more marginalized.
> * when I said that Israelians shot Palestines on their side of the border, I meant exactly that. The "border" on the premise is a 300 meter 'no go' zone, with barb wire marking the end of it. It wouldn't be pretty but at least somewhat understandable if the protesters marched in that no go zone and got shot there. But that isn't what happened: they shot to up to 500 meter in Palestinian territory.
> ...


The premise of your response is that it's okay for Palestinians to run up to the border fence brandishing weapons with the clear intention of throwing said weapons over the fence and killing Israeli people, but it is not okay to fire upon them in order to prevent that. That's pretty noble, if a bit naive. They're not "peaceful protests" and the organisers say as much. They're also not armed with "rocks and cocktails", on March 30th IDF shot down two "protesters" armed with AK-47's and hand grenades. Like I said, HAMAS is using the crowds to smuggle in martyrs for the cause and Israel has every right to stop any attempt at a border breach. Once they're at the fence it's already too late - they can discharge any manner of weapons or explosives and harm people on the other side. Israel went through extreme measures to discourage people from approaching the border - they have planes dropping fliers informing people that they should not approach it or they will be shot at, they're doing what they can to minimise collateral, but HAMAS isn't helping. Their idea of peace is the dissolution of the state of Israel, that's not on the table.


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## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The premise of your response is that it's okay for Palestinians to run up to the border fence brandishing weapons with the clear intention of throwing said weapons over the fence and killing Israeli people, but it is not okay to fire upon them in order to prevent that. That's pretty noble, if a bit naive. They're not "peaceful protests" and the organisers say as much. They're also not armed with "rocks and cocktails", on March 30th IDF shot down two "protesters" armed with AK-47's and hand grenades. Like I said, HAMAS is using the crowds to smuggle in martyrs for the cause and Israel has every right to stop any attempt at a border breach. Once they're at the fence it's already too late - they can discharge any manner of weapons or explosives and harm people on the other side. Israel went through extreme measures to discourage people from approaching the border - they have planes dropping fliers informing people that they should not approach it or they will be shot at, they're doing what they can to minimise collateral, but HAMAS isn't helping. Their idea of peace is the dissolution of the state of Israel, that's not on the table.


Dude, Israeli snipers shot Canadian doctors who were very much aware of the border lines and nowhere near them at the time.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...r-shot-while-aiding-palestinians-in-gaza.html

It's common knowledge that the Israelis have been trigger happy for years now with Netanyahu in charge.  He's Israel's Dick Cheney.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Rofl, and you're completely tone deaf as to how the US would look like the aggressors in that situation?  Iran held up their end of the nuclear agreement until Trump reneged on it, and AFAIK they still hold the agreement with other nations that didn't bail.  What the fuck would we hope to accomplish there in the end, anyway?  Another 15-year quagmire like Iraq or Afghanistan?  The US gains nothing, all we'd be doing is spilling American blood and raising the price of oil to the benefit of mostly Russian interests.


An agreement that was, at the time, criticised for being grossly inadequate and should've never been signed in the first place, not to mention that it skirted the law. An international treaty must be approved by 2/3rds of the Senate, the "Iran Deal" was just a fancy of the president that completely overstepped due process. He acted as if he was the deciding body of foreign policy which he was not. Are you even aware of the fact that the agreement did not include the possibility for the IAEA to inspect military sites, the sites where you store *weapons*, nor did it prevent Iran from developing ICBM's? All it accomplished was funnelling a bunch of money into Iran for a promise that they won't develop a nuke while actively working on ICBM's. Guess what happens after the deal expires? They dig up the old papers, documentation that Israeli spies stole, develop a warhead and put it right into their brand-new intercontinental missiles. If you think the Iran deal prevented Iran from developing nukes, I've got a bridge to sell you on the cheap.


> Yup, speeding up nuclear proliferation and escalating conflicts worldwide while fucking up what few diplomatic opportunities you do have (N Korea).  "Winning" in the Charlie Sheen sense.


This is the first time in history that the North Korean dictator stepped into the demilitarised zone to shake hands with South Korean diplomats. You can dispute the methods, but you can't argue with the results. Maybe Iran will stop developing nukes if Trump just shitposts at them incessantly, I don't know how he does his magic, but it works.


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## osaka35 (May 17, 2018)

At a national level, Palestine obviously has the high-ground ethically.

On an individual level, it isn't right to force folks out of their homes today because of how things used to be in the past. Really, palestine should have the larger bargaining chips in peace talks, but the people affected by these decisions have to take the highest priority.

But then you have the grossness of religion gobbing up the works, as usual. That and the ongoing conflict makes who deserves what a bit academic. folks are dying, and their (and our) governments aren't making things better.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Dude, Israeli snipers shot Canadian doctors who were very much aware of the border lines and nowhere near them at the time.
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...r-shot-while-aiding-palestinians-in-gaza.html
> 
> It's common knowledge that the Israelis have been trigger happy for years now with Netanyahu in charge.  He's Israel's Dick Cheney.


Collateral. It's very sad, but it can't be helped - it's a conflict zone right now.


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## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> An agreement that was, at the time, criticised for being grossly inadequate and should've never been signed in the first place, not to mention that it skirted the law.


Oh please.  Buying into the "Obama bad" bullshit and trying to bullshit me at the same time.  The agreement was thorough and kept Iran from enriching Uranium over some very low grade incapable of being used as a warhead, for yes, 10 years.  That's all there is to that, there's a reason other countries were smart enough to stay in the agreement.



Foxi4 said:


> This is the first time in history that the North Korean dictator stepped into the demilitarised zone to shake hands with South Korean diplomats. You can dispute the methods, but you can't argue with the results. Maybe Iran will stop developing nukes if Trump just shitposts at them incessantly, I don't know how he does his magic, but it works.


You're not keeping up with the news, clearly.  N Korea just today canceled a scheduled meeting with S Korea and threatened to pull out of talks with Trump altogether because of his administration's blustering on TV over the matter.



Foxi4 said:


> Collateral. It's very sad, but it can't be helped - it's a conflict zone right now.


"Conflict zone" implies casualties on both sides, and I haven't heard about an Israeli civilian dying in perhaps years.  Palestian civs, daily.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Oh please.  Buying into the "Obama bad" bullshit and trying to bullshit me at the same time.  The agreement was thorough and kept Iran from enriching Uranium over some very low grade incapable of being used as a warhead.  That's all there is to that, there's a reason other countries were smart enough to stay in the agreement.
> 
> 
> You're not keeping up with the news, clearly.  N Korea just today canceled a scheduled meeting with S Korea and threatened to pull out of talks with Trump altogether because of his administration's blustering on TV over the matter.


I'm fine with that also - we have a bigger button, and ours works. The North Korean nuclear site, according to recent intelligence, is unstable and no longer supports missile launches, it basically collapsed, so the dictator is flexing non-existent muscles.


> "Conflict zone" implies casualties on both sides, and I haven't heard about an Israeli civilian dying in perhaps years.  Palestians, daily.


You're not reading the news very closely then. Israeli citizens, commonly children since they're easy targets, but also soldiers, are routinely kidnapped and executed. HAMAS has missile sites concealed across the border and rains fire upon Israel on a pretty tight schedule. Whenever you hear about a carpet bombing in Palestine, that's MOSSAD and the IDF finding and destroying weapons and terrorist cells. Don't be naive, Palestinians have been openly hostile to Israel since literally day 1.


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## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> You're not reading the news very closely then. Israeli citizens, most commonly children since they're easy targets, are routinely kidnapped and executed. HAMAS has missile sites concealed across the border and rains fire upon Israel on a pretty tight schedule. Whenever you hear about a carpet bombing in Palestine, that's MOSSAD and the IDF finding and destroying weapons and terrorist cells. Don't be naive, Palestinians have been openly hostile to Israel since literally day 1.


Neither side _should_ be hostile, but JFC one side are literally Stormtroopers.  Israelis have the best war weaponry and tech in the world, much of it provided by the US.  Cheesy or not, with great power comes great responsibility.  It's on Israel to set an example for the region, not push Muslim genocide with the US being the stooges who have to bankrupt ourselves morally and financially attempting to carry it out.  "They take one of ours and we take twenty of theirs" is not an acceptable attitude for a people who were supposed to have learned something from the Holocaust.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Neither side _should_ be hostile, but JFC one side are literally Stormtroopers.  Israelis have the best war weaponry and tech in the world, much of it provided by the US.  Cheesy or not, with great power comes great responsibility.  It's on Israel to set an example for the region, not push Muslim genocide with the US being the stooges who have to bankrupt ourselves morally and financially attempting to carry it out.  "They take one of ours and we take twenty of theirs" is not an acceptable attitude for a people who were supposed to have learned something from the Holocaust.


It's the only attitude to have against terror. They've learned a lot from the Holocaust - they learned that there are people out there who would want nothing less than the absolute extermination of their nation and that "peacefully sitting it out" is how you end up in a death camp. You're welcome to have a different opinion on this, I'm going to side with the only place that's truly free in the middle east, a place where you can live your life however you want and live in peace. What concessions do you want Israel to make? They handed the authority over Temple Mount to Muslim Wakfs in a gesture of peace and what was the result? The result is that they're now not allowed to pray in the holiest site of Judaism. They allow Palestinians to live in Israel, how many Jews are allowed to live in the Palestinian Authority? I think you're a little jaded, and you're jaded because Israel is backed by the U S. military might which you hate as you perceive it as an engine of chaos.


----------



## xpoverzion (May 17, 2018)

Jewmerica, (cough, cough I mean America) protects Israel because America is nothing more than a vassel state of Israel.  Germany, France, Great Britain, etc are also vassal states for Israel.  Israel's diaspora has a death grip on the economies of these western nations, and therefore can extort them in just about any way she pleases.  Sucks to be the palestinians, Iran, and any other people who want soverignty in this world.  For when you have "Israel" that lives among you, you are not a soverign nation, but rather a unbeknownst subjugated people for her cause.  Any countries that are against Israel and her vassal states are the last hope for the freedom and soverignty of all non-jews.


----------



## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> It's the only attitude to have against terror.


I'm talking about Palestinian civilians being killed, not terrorists.  Though why nobody can learn that all they're doing is creating more terrorists through what they dismiss as "collateral damage" is beyond me.



Foxi4 said:


> They've learned a lot from the Holocaust - they learned that there are people out there who would want nothing less than the absolute extermination of their nation and that "peacefully sitting it out" is how you end up in a death camp.


In other words, to avoid Nazis in the future, we'll become Nazis?  Doesn't make much sense.


----------



## XDel (May 17, 2018)

Both sides are retarded. All conflicts are retarded. People are Children, especially the more "sophisticated" they pretend to be.


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## TotalInsanity4 (May 17, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> Jewmerica, (cough, cough I mean America) protects Israel because America is nothing more than a vassel state of Israel.  Germany, France, Great Britain, etc are also vassal states for Israel.  Israel's diaspora has a death grip on the economies of these western nations, and therefore can extort them in just about any way she pleases.  Sucks to be the palestinians, Iran, and any other people who want soverignty in this world.  For when you have "Israel" that lives among you, you are not a soverign nation, but rather a unbeknownst subjugated people for her cause.  Any countries that are against Israel and her vassal states are the last hope for the freedom and soverignty of all non-jews.


Ok, even though I recognize and willingly condemn Israel for their treatment towards Palestine, you can cut the anti-Semitic bullshit right out


----------



## xpoverzion (May 17, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ok, even though I recognize and willingly condemn Israel for their treatment towards Palestine, you can cut the anti-Semitic bullshit right out


"If you want to know who rules over you, simply find out who it is you are not allowed to criticize."  Voltaire.  "Israel" has you trained very well to shut those up who point a finger in her direction.  Open your eyes.  Israel and her diaspora are an ambitious people just like any other people in the world.  However they acquire money, power, and ifluence, you better believe they are going to use that for for Israels imperial agendas.   

Don't you see.. I could have said in my orginal post that it was Russia, China, or some other nation that is behind why America and the west does what it does.  You would have been perfectly fine with this, and it would have been open for discussion whether it sounded ridiculous or not.  But mention that the Jews and Israel might be up to some unsavory activities at their home, and abroad, and suddenly every one cries anti-semitism.  Again, they have you trained very well.  You have been indoctrinated your entire life to blindly protect them and percieve them as a people that can do no wrong, no matter how much money, power, and influence they have in the world.  They have you played for a fool as their little minion gestopo force.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I'm talking about Palestinian civilians being killed, not terrorists.  Though why nobody can learn that all they're doing is creating more terrorists through what they dismiss as "collateral damage" is beyond me.


You mean the civilians who elected HAMAS as their government? I'm sure they're a peaceful bunch. The "you're just creating more terrorists" talk is all well and good because you don't have missiles flying over your head, buses exploding in your streets and the occasional suicide bomber making your house shake. It's easy to point the finger and the big, bad Jews because your kids aren't getting kidnapped. You said it yourself - Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they're so evil, why wouldn't they just obliterate Palestine? It would make their lives a whole lot easier, would it not? The way I see it, Israel is defending its border while Palestine consistently wants to push into Israeli territory, one side is the aggressor, one side initiated the hostilities and it's that side who's in the wrong. It is encumbent on Arab states to cease their aggression if they want peace in the region - Israel has the means to end it anyways, but unlike some other states in the region, they wouldn't go that far just to win.


----------



## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> You mean the civilians who elected HAMAS as their government? I'm sure they're a peaceful bunch.


The exact same could be said about Netanyahu from the other side.  Extremism breeds extremism.



Foxi4 said:


> You said it yourself - Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they're so evil, why wouldn't they just obliterate Palestine?


Because that would ignite that massive region-wide conflict I was talking about, and Israel would have the US do the dirty work of at least eliminating Iran as a threat before attacking Palestine full stop.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> "If you want to know who rules over you, simply find out who it is you are not allowed to criticize."  Voltaire.  "Israel" has you trained very well to shut those up who point a finger in her direction.  Open your eyes.  Israel and her diaspora are an ambitious people just like any other people in the world.  However they acquire money, power, and ifluence, you better believe they are going to use that for for Israels imperial agendas.


Are we not allowed to criticise Israel? All media coverage of Israel since the 60's has been negative. The UN Human Rights Council, established in 2006, has issued 135 resolutions within its first decade of operating, *68* of which were against Israel. Do you know who's on the council besides the obvious? China, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Egypt, Cuba, all gross abusers of human rights. You know who isn't? Israel, the only democracy in the middle east, because Arab states refuse to allow it or even acknowledge it. All you hear about on the news is how Israel is the great oppressor of the poor Palestinians. Do you live under a rock? Can't criticise Israel, that's a good one.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (May 17, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> "If you want to know who rules over you, simply find out who it is you are not allowed to criticize."  Voltaire.  "Israel" has you trained very well to shut those up who point a finger in her direction.  Open your eyes.  Israel and her diaspora are an ambitious people just like any other people in the world.  However they acquire money, power, and ifluence, you better believe they are going to use that for for Israels imperial agendas.
> 
> Don't you see.. I could have said in my orginal post that it was Russia, China, or some other nation that is behind why America and the west does what it does.  You would have been perfectly fine with this, and it would have been open for discussion whether it sounded ridiculous or not.  But mention that the Jews and Israel might be up to some unsavory activities at their home, and abroad, and suddenly every one cries anti-semitism.  Again, they have you trained very well.  You have been indoctrinated your entire life to blindly protect them and percieve them as a people that can do no wrong, no matter how much money, power, and influence they have in the world.  They have you played for a fool as their little minion gestopo force.


I don't give a damn if you say that Israel is pulling strings behind the scenes and trading favors with America, because I already know that's the case. But the second you start an argument with the word "Jewmerica", your position is done.


----------



## Taleweaver (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The premise of your response is that it's okay for Palestinians to run up to the border fence brandishing weapons with the clear intention of throwing said weapons over the fence and killing Israeli people, but it is not okay to fire upon them in order to prevent that.


Erm...the premise of my response was to stress that they were unarmed and intended to a peaceful demonstration on their side of the no-go zone. I honestly don't believe any protester attempted to throw a stone at an armed Israelian soldier *from somewhere between 300 to 800 meters away*.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

Taleweaver said:


> Erm...the premise of my response was to stress that they were unarmed and intended to a peaceful demonstration on their side of the no-go zone. I honestly don't believe any protester attempted to throw a stone at an armed Israelian soldier *from somewhere between 300 to 800 meters away*.


I didn't know that stones look like AK-47's. Y'know, the AK-47's Palestinians use to shoot down Israeli drones fitted with fliers and non-lethal crowd control measures? Those ones. I'm not saying that there are no unarmed civilians there - there are, that's the point. The problem is that there are also gunmen among them, which is why Israel deployed snipers as opposed to mowing people down willy-nilly. Do you know how they cross the border wall without actually getting across the "800 meters" perimeter? With firebomb kites. They build kites, attach flammable liquids to them, light them up and fly them over the fence to cause brush fires in Israel. Here's a peaceful Palestinian being interviewed by NPR, brandishing a firebomb kite decorated with a swastika, happily announcing that he knows what it means and that he wants to burn Jews. Lovely people. Unarmed and innocent.


----------



## xpoverzion (May 17, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Are we not allowed to criticise Israel? All media coverage of Israel since the 60's has been negative. The UN Human Rights Council, established in 2006, has issued 135 resolutions within its first decade of operating, *68* of which were against Israel. Do you know who's on the council besides the obvious? China, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Egypt, Cuba, all gross abusers of human rights. You know who isn't? Israel, the only democracy in the middle east, because Arab states refuse to allow it or even acknowledge it. All you hear about on the news is how Israel is the great oppressor of the poor Palestinians. Do you live under a rock? Can't criticise Israel, that's a good one.


Mostly, I am referring to criticism not being allowed at "Israel" that exists within other nations.  Israel is hardly a democracy in the middle east.  It's a highly racist apartheid state that prefers itself to be an all Jewish nation if possible.  Israel is essentially a white collar KKK/Nazi regime that uses financial extortion to coerce it's vassal states to do it's bloodshedding around the world.  

I know... All these concepts are really difficult for the average goy to comprehend.  It's a game of chess out there, not checkers.


----------



## Hanafuda (May 17, 2018)

Taleweaver said:


> 'world Zionist organisation'




Ok that's as far as I got.


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## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> Mostly, I am referring to criticism not being allowed at "Israel" that exists within other nations.  Israel is hardly a democracy in the middle east.  It's a highly racist apartheid state that prefers itself to be an all Jewish nation if possible.  Israel is essentially a white collar KKK/Nazi regime that uses financial extortion to coerce it's vassal states to do it's bloodshedding around the world.
> 
> I know... All these concepts are really difficult for the average goy to comprehend.  It's a game of chess out there, not checkers.


That's demonstrably false based on census data. Like I said, Israel is so free that it literally allows people to elect Muslim representatives that actively campaign for its dissolution. Muslims, Christians and Jews can freely live there or visit, meanwhile if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport, many Arab countries will turn you away at the border. The problem is so prevalent that Israeli border security now instituted a policy that allows visitors to ask them not to stamp their passports so as to not impede future travel. No Jew is going to kidnap you for ransom in Israel, matters are very different in the neighbouring Arab states where just you being there and not being Muslim and ethnically Arab exposes you to danger. The terrible apartheid of Israel openly embraces homosexuality, like every good fascist state does, eh? Meanwhile in many countries in the region homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. You're believing lies, I'm not sure why I'm even discussing this with you. Israel is the only outpost of modernity and liberty in the middle east and it gets criticised for no reason other than its relationship with the United States, it's considered imperialist when historically it has always belonged to the Jews.


----------



## DarthDub (May 17, 2018)

Why are Jews hated so much? I did some reading on antisemitism last night and it's insane how much persecution they go through.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 17, 2018)

News straight from the horse's mouth today - HAMAS has now announced that 50 out of the 62 casualties during the border clashes so far were positively identified as HAMAS militants. We already know that an additional 3 were members of Islamic Jihad, totalling in 53 terrorists out of 62 deaths. But yeah, Israel is just shooting at people indiscriminately. You can't even accuse me of a right-wing bend here, this was reported by the CNN. So much for the "spontaneous peaceful protests" narrative. There are also reports that HAMAS pays civilians $300 to get wounded and $500 to the families of the dead because they want more of those great photo ops of Israeli soldiers shooting "civilians". They're literally recruiting meat shields, but it's Israel who's at fault. This is a concentrated effort to breach the border and kill Jews, and it's becoming painfully obvious.

https://edition-m.cnn.com/2018/05/16/middleeast/hamas-members-gaza-deaths/index.html?rm=1


----------



## Xzi (May 17, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> Why are Jews hated so much? I did some reading on antisemitism last night and it's insane how much persecution they go through.


The right-wing conspiracy nut (Trump supporter) narrative is that Jews control pretty much all major institutions worldwide.  Media, finance, militaries, everything.  Not capable individuals that worked their way up, but just "cheating" and "sneaking," the same smears that have been used since WW2.

Personally I have no issue with Jewish people, most are very talented and/or dedicated individuals.  That doesn't mean I have to praise Israel when they try to use the US to their own ends on the global scale.  The amount of financial and arms support we send to them annually should be more than enough.  Not that we should be supporting an extremist like Netanyahu at all.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The right-wing conspiracy nut (Trump supporter) narrative is that Jews control pretty much all major institutions worldwide.  Media, finance, militaries, everything.  Not capable individuals that worked their way up, but just "cheating" and "sneaking," the same smears that have been used since WW2.
> 
> Personally I have no issue with Jewish people, most are very talented and/or dedicated individuals.  That doesn't mean I have to praise Israel when they try to use the US to their own ends on the global scale.  The amount of financial and arms support we send to them annually should be more than enough.  Not that we should be supporting an extremist like Netanyahu at all.


Nice stereotyping there, I'm sure every Trump supporter is a racist member of the NRA and KKK who secretly maintains a stash on Nazi memorabilia and listens to Alex Jones in a survival shelter in the basement while turning satellite dishes around to receive alien transmissions, simultaneously operating several cameras to ensure that FEMA isn't at the door to take away the 45+ guns every single one of them has to hunt the Juden with, which is all very hard when wearing a High Dragon hood. Nevermind the fact that half of the country voted for him and his job approval rating averages at 43.4% now, the highest point in months. Half of America is just racist bigots, it all makes sense.

We totally shouldn't support an extremist like Netanyahu, instead we should make deals with Glorious Leader Kim Jong Un, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and other vile dictators because unlike a legitimate Prime Minister of a democratic country they're not extreme and can be trusted. We shouldn't help Israel remain a beacon of hope in the middle east, what we need to do is send more pallets of untraceable cash to Iran so that they... don't spend it on missiles and terror, I guess. The cognitive dissonance is palpable.

Boy, oh boy - I really hope the left keeps this attitude up for two more years. Please, continue to berate half of the country, you're bolstering Trump's re-election efforts.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Nevermind the fact that half of the country voted for him and his job approval rating averages at 43.4% now, the highest point in months. Half of America is just racist bigots, it all makes sense.


Half of America, lol.  Only 59.7% of Americans even voted in 2016, and of those, Trump got less than half of the popular vote by around three million.  So yes, more like 30-33% are "alt-right" aka ignorant nationalist douchebags who want America to be a whites-only country.



Foxi4 said:


> We totally shouldn't support an extremist like Netanyahu, instead we should make deals with Glorious Leader Kim Jong Un, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and other vile dictators


It's all open season with Trump in charge, he's praised nearly every dictator in the past.  Right now he's more focused on trying to become a dictator himself.  I wonder how many more times he's going to request a military parade.



Foxi4 said:


> We shouldn't help Israel remain a beacon of hope in the middle east, what we need to do is send more palettes of untraceable cash to Iran so that they... don't spend it on missiles and terror, I guess.


You realize that was already Iranian money that we gave back to them in exchange for hostages, right?  Oh never mind, this is another stupid line of attack that will be played on Faux News ad nausem until roughly 2050.



Foxi4 said:


> Boy, oh boy - I really hope the left keeps this attitude up for two more years. Please, continue to berate half of the country, you're bolstering Trump's re-election efforts.


Sure I am.  That's why nearly every candidate Trump has endorsed since being inaugurated has lost.  The only way Republicans come out of the 2018 midterms with any leg to stand on is if they keep as many people from voting as possible.


----------



## Deleted User (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> So yes, more like 30-33% are "alt-right" aka ignorant nationalist douchebags who want America to be a whites-only country.


Holy shit you are stereotyping hard. Might as well come out and say that all liberals and leftists hate America and want it to burn to the ground. No? Alright, let's move on then.

30-33% of people voted for Trump then? Well, tell me. Was this election a vote between two good options, or two bad options? Two bad options? Thought so. That means that a lot of those people most likely voted for whichever party best represented their views (living in Arizona we see the negatives of immigration, unlike a places like New York and Pennsylvania). That also means they most likely voted for the lesser of two evils. You'd be surprised how much of a minority the "alt-right" is. It is simply a vocal minority.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

blujay said:


> Holy shit you are stereotyping hard. Might as well come out and say that all liberals and leftists hate America and want it to burn to the ground. No? Alright, let's move on then.


No, let's not.  These are labels that Trump supporters typically self-identify with, I'm not the one labeling them as "alt-right," or "neo-nazi."  Trump embraced these groups early during the campaign, and continued to do so throughout it.  He's refused several times to denounce white supremacist leaders.  It's not at all surprising that these types congregate around Trump, it's been a whole lot of not-so-subtle racist dogwhistles from the beginning.



blujay said:


> 30-33% of people voted for Trump then? Well, tell me. Was this election a vote between two good options, or two bad options? Two bad options? Thought so.


I would've preferred Bernie, but even minus him we had one qualified, experienced candidate, and one reality TV star.  They were not equal options.  Actions have consequences and now that we're seeing the trainwreck that is the Trump presidency, the people who enthusiastically supported him are having a hard time owning up to reality and taking their share of responsibility for this mess.


----------



## Deleted User (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> No, let's not.  These are labels that Trump supporters typically self-identify with, I'm not the one labeling them as "alt-right," or "neo-nazi."  Trump embraced these groups early during the campaign, and continued to do so throughout it.  He's refused several times to denounce white supremacist leaders.  It's not at all surprising that these types congregate around Trump, it's been a whole lot of not-so-subtle racist dogwhistles from the beginning.


*ignores rest of my point*
Has Clinton or Obama denounced alt-left leaders/groups (like Antifa?). Honestly, I don't care enough to argue with you when you don't even respond to the rest of my point, so I didn't do more than a quick google search about Clinton or Obama denouncing groups like Antifa, so if they have please inform me.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

blujay said:


> Has Clinton or Obama denounced alt-left leaders/groups (like Antifa?)


Antifa are not affiliated with the Democratic party in any way, they're mostly anarchists.  Anarchy is incompatible with organized institutions.  Nor has the left ever had a leader to galvanize the "alt-left" like Trump has galvanized the alt-right.  In the end it's simply the old Southern Strategy in new clothes.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Half of America, lol.  Only 59.7% of Americans even voted in 2016, and of those, Trump got less than half of the popular vote by around three million.  So yes, more like 30-33% are "alt-right" aka ignorant nationalist douchebags who want America to be a whites-only country.
> 
> It's all open season with Trump in charge, he's praised nearly every dictator in the past.  Right now he's more focused on trying to become a dictator himself.  I wonder how many more times he's going to request a military parade.
> 
> ...


Money that was rightfully frozen as part of the Iranian asset freeze after a slew of international law violations, threats of WMD development, acts of terrorism and actual bombings. It should've never been returned to them and it was, as expected, immediately funneled into military expansion. Of course you wouldn't know that because as an Obama fanboy you probably bought the idea that the Iranian regime is moderate. I have to give Barack some credit here, he knew exactly who to as for foreign policy advice - a fiction writer, Ben Rhodes. Only the best experts for the job, someone has to write a compelling narrative.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Of course you wouldn't know that because as an Obama fanboy you probably bought the idea that the Iranian regime is moderate.


Moderate or not, attitudes toward the US in Iran were shifting in a positive direction.  At least until the orange fuckwit got involved and shit all over America's standing on the world stage.


----------



## Glyptofane (May 18, 2018)

The definition of a terrorist is anyone Israel dislikes, has stolen land from, or intends to have America bomb to smithereens sometime in the near future.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> No, let's not.  These are labels that Trump supporters typically self-identify with, I'm not the one labeling them as "alt-right," or "neo-nazi."  Trump embraced these groups early during the campaign, and continued to do so throughout it.  He's refused several times to denounce white supremacist leaders.  It's not at all surprising that these types congregate around Trump, it's been a whole lot of not-so-subtle racist dogwhistles from the beginning.
> 
> 
> I would've preferred Bernie, but even minus him we had one qualified, experienced candidate, and one reality TV star.  They were not equal options.  Actions have consequences and now that we're seeing the trainwreck that is the Trump presidency, the people who enthusiastically supported him are having a hard time owning up to reality and taking their share of responsibility for this mess.



If Bernie won, still would've better than the dog-faced Clinton bitch winning.


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## Viri (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> If Bernie won, still would've better than the dog-faced Clinton bitch winning.


IT WAS HER TURN!


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## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Viri said:


> IT WAS HER TURN!



Do you think I care about her or any of the Clinton losers? Hell no. She's hardly that much of a diplomat and got all tits up because she didn't get her way.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> If Bernie won, still would've better than the dog-faced Clinton bitch winning.


We don't elect politicians for their pretty faces obviously, Trump's face looks like an Orangutan's ass.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Moderate or not, attitudes in Iran were shifting toward the US.  At least until the orange fuckwit got involved and shit all over America's standing on the world stage.


No, they weren't. Do you think I have the word "rube" tattooed on my forehead? Iran has increased its military budget by 30% since the deal was signed. Not quite the 40% Trump claimed, but 30% is bad enough. The only things they're turning towards the U.S. are the barrels of their weapons, they never intended to become your buddies and believing otherwise is just naive.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> We don't elect politicians for their pretty faces obviously, Trump's face looks like an Orangutan's ass.



And Clinton looked like an washed up pornstar who had a rough career. I'm glad that back-peddling bitch is not in office.


----------



## Viri (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Do you think I care about her or any of the Clinton losers? Hell no. She's hardly that much of a diplomat and got all tits up because she didn't get her way.


REeeeeeeee! She was supposed to break the glass ceiling, you bigot! She did such a wonderful job as Secretary of State! It was her turn!


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> No, they weren't. Do you think I have the word "rube" tattooed on my forehead? Iran has increased its military budget by 30% since the deal was signed. Not quite the 40% Trump claimed, but 30% is bad enough. The only things they're turning towards the U.S. are the barrels of their weapons, they never intended to become your buddies and believing otherwise is just naive.


Oh Jesus, not 30%?!?!  Don't we increase our annual military budget by hundreds of percentage points nearly every year?  Should every other country on Earth take that as a sign of aggression?  This is ridiculous logic.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Viri said:


> REeeeeeeee! She was supposed to break the glass ceiling, you bigot! She did such a wonderful job as Secretary of State! It was her turn!



Oh yes, I'm a bigot because I didn't vote for Clinton? I had to be coerced into voting for only one party, and couldn't chose any other party, and I'm somehow a bigot? Sorry, but that's just a dick move to label me as such just
because I didn't vote the way the popular vote dictated. Clinton can go on a whiny bitchfest for all I care.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Viri said:


> REeeeeeeee! She was supposed to break the glass ceiling, you bigot! She did such a wonderful job as Secretary of State! It was her turn!


You flew right under his sarcasm detector, you have humour of mass distraction and I applaud you for that. I'm with Her, girl power, Pokemon Go-to-the-polls! Now, where's my delicious cruelty-free soy drink...


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> And Clinton looked like an washed up pornstar who had a rough career. I'm glad that back-peddling bitch is not in office.


Well, we know pornstar wasn't an option for Trump from Stormy's account of things.  Again though you're missing the point.  If you can't criticize her based on her professional career, she was the better candidate regardless of comments on her looks and/or thinly-veiled misogyny.  America should've been over the "better candidate to have a beer with" phase after GWB.  It's not a president's job to be the friendly town drunk, for fuck's sake.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Well, we know pornstar wasn't an option for Trump from Stormy's account of things.  Again though you're missing the point.  If you can't criticize her based on her professional career, she was the better candidate regardless of her looks and thinly-veiled misogyny.



I'm not being misogynist,how dare you accuse me of such? I didn't agree with her support of the TPP, I didn't like how she acted dumb and innocent with the whole "accidental" email scandal. I didn't like how she called anyone who didn't vote for her "deplorable", because apparently according to her, you can't vote for anyone else who doesn't agree with her policies. That was just a douche move on her part to assume that "vote for me or else I get to call you names", what an idiot. She tried to act cool by saying "Pokemon Go" vote during the election, wow, she can connect to other people trying to be hip, what an accomplishment. I don't like the vibe she gave me, I don't like how people who voted for her treat those who didn't vote for her like garbage. Who the hell is she to act like she and anyone who voted for her are somehow better than those who didn't vote for her? Seriously.  I thought people were allowed to vote for whoever they wanted without the opposite parties being whiny crybabies and using insults, remind me why people can't accept others' opinions without going on a bitchfest again?

If people can't agree with other people in who they vote for without resorting to insults and lumping people together as a group without being an immature and inconsiderate douchebag, they all need to shut up and accept it and move on.

I may not like Hillary, but I don't go around yelling to everyone who voted for her and lumping them with epithets or ad hominem attacks, that's just a low blow and a again, a douchebag move to make. If you want to hate me and insult me solely based on what my views are and why I voted who I voted for, that's not my problem.


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## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Oh Jesus, not 30%?!?!  Don't we increase our annual military budget by hundreds of percentage points nearly every year?  Should every other country on Earth take that as a sign of aggression?  This is ridiculous logic.


It's a good thing the U.S. has those bases there to keep the region stable, I dread to think what would've happened if you didn't. There are two ways to think about the world - way number one is that the United States, the country in charge of the largest military force in the world, should withdraw into its borders, just let things play out and then everything will be fine. This is patently false and has no historical precedent - if not for American intervention, I would either speak German or wouldn't be alive at all. On the flip side there also wouldn't be any Jews left, so technically you're correct - there would be no conflict in the middle east, besides the fights between Muslims themselves which have only lasted for what, a thousand years now? The alternative viewpoint to that is that we require American presence in the world in order to prevent countries adversary to the interests of the West, to freedom, democracy and liberty, from committing genocide, establishing trade blockades and terrorising us into non-existence. I'm a libertarian, I'm no fan of the government, but I'm not stupid enough not to realise that the latter view is correct, not the former.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I'm not being misogynist,how dare you accuse me of such? I didn't agree with her support of the TPP, I didn't like how she acted dumb and innocent with the whole "accidental" email scandal. I didn't like how she called anyone who didn't vote for her "deplorable", because apparently according to her, you can't vote for anyone else who doesn't agree with her policies. That was just a douche move on her part to assume that "vote for me or else I get to call you names", what an idiot. She tried to act cool by saying "Pokemon Go" vote during the election, wow, she can connect to other people trying to be hip, what an accomplishment. I don't like the vibe she gave me, I don't like how people who voted for her treat those who didn't vote for her like garbage. Who the hell is she to act like she and anyone who voted for her are somehow better than those who didn't vote for her? Seriously.  I thought people were allowed to vote for whoever they wanted without the opposite parties being whiny crybabies and using insults, remind me why people can't accept others' opinions without going on a bitchfest again?


Sure, there are plenty of things to nitpick about when it comes to Hillary, and she really was pretty bad at campaigning.  Any flaw she might've had though, Trump also had, and usually worse.  At this point he can barely string together two coherent sentences.  We're going to have to remove him before 2020 for mental health reasons even if he's not removed on criminal charges.  So do I think Hillary would've been perfect?  Far from it.  Do I think she'd have passed more than one item of legislation after two years in office and kept the US at a more stable place internationally?  100% yes.

I remember one of the biggest nitpicks for Hillary was that she was supposedly a "warhawk."  Well look where we are with Trump now.  The hypocrisy is unending.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Sure, there are plenty of things to nitpick about when it comes to Hillary, and she really was pretty bad at campaigning.  Any flaw she might've had though, Trump also had, and usually worse.  At this point he can barely string together two coherent sentences.  We're going to have to remove him before 2020 for mental health reasons even if he's not removed on criminal charges.  So do I think Hillary would've been perfect?  Far from it.  Do I think she'd have passed more than one item of legislation after two years in office and kept the US at a more stable place internationally?  100% yes.
> 
> I remember one of the biggest nitpicks for Hillary was that she was supposedly a "warhawk."  Well look where we are with Trump now.  The hypocrisy is unending.



Okay, but do you think that one could ever express their political views/why they voted the way they did without someone on the opposite side of said views without name-calling, ad hominem attacks and going on a whiny bitchfest? Is that even remotely possible on the internet? Because if that never changes, what's the point in expressing views?


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Okay, but do you think that one could ever express their political views/why they voted the way they did without someone on the opposite side of said views without name-calling, ad hominem attacks and going on a whiny bitchfest? Is that even remotely possible on the internet? Because if that never changes, what's the point in expressing views?


I dunno, a big part of Trump's platform was the anti-PC stuff, aka "fuck your feelings."  It's hard to have a civil discourse when one side believes people with racist/bigoted views should be able to spew their bile in public and not feel shamed for it.

I say forced DNA tests for everybody so people might realize we are all mixed and America truly is a melting pot.  I'm a pale whitey, but even I'm 9% African.  



Foxi4 said:


> It's a good thing the U.S. has those bases there to keep the region stable, I dread to think what would've happened if you didn't. There are two ways to think about the world - way number one is that the United States, the country in charge of the largest military force in the world, should withdraw into its borders, just let things play out and then everything will be fine. This is patently false and has no historical precedent - if not for American intervention, I would either speak German or wouldn't be alive at all. On the flip side there also wouldn't be any Jews left, so technically you're correct - there would be no conflict in the middle east, besides the fights between Muslims themselves which have only lasted for what, a thousand years now? The alternative viewpoint to that is that we require American presence in the world in order to prevent countries adversary to the interests of the West, to freedom, democracy and liberty, from committing genocide, establishing trade blockades and terrorising us into non-existence. I'm a libertarian, I'm no fan of the government, but I'm not stupid enough not to realise that the latter view is correct, not the former.


I get it.  You can justify any US aggression worldwide under the flimsy excuse of "controlling terror."  Problem is, anything can and will be labeled terror at some point.  Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.


----------



## cots (May 18, 2018)

Taleweaver said:


> ...



This is what you get when you only read about the subject on Liberal news sites. Why not trying to educate yourself from others sources too? Don't take one groups word on it or what you learned in grade school (as they have implemented various tactics in the past 30 years to indoctrinate children into their party). College is a good resource, make sure to read Republican sites too and try out community focused stuff like Wikipedia. My Sisters husband is Jewish and he is also a democrat, but he will go on and on about how Obama and Clinton screwed things up more and more. See, normal democrats have their own minds, but Liberals are just sheep (same for Alt-Right whereas normal Republicans aren't so extreme, but don't let CNN tell you that.)


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I dunno, a big part of Trump's platform was the anti-PC stuff, aka "fuck your feelings."  It's hard to have a civil discourse when one side believes people with racist/bigoted views should be able to spew their bile in public and not feel shamed for it.
> 
> I say forced DNA tests for everybody so people might realize we are all mixed and America truly is a melting pot.



And just because he says that, everyone else somehow automatically feels that way? Really? Wow, it's good to know that just because on out of 300 million people thinks that way, everyone else who voted for him automatically thinks that way, gotcha. See, I was hoping that people could come to an understanding and speak with some level of civility, but as usual, I was wrong, what a shock. Time for me to GTFO, because clearly, a civil discussion while having opposing views on politics is nothing but a half-assed effort. Peace out.

What the hell is the point in even trying to be civil if people treat you like shit?


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> And just because some people think that way, everyone else somehow automatically feels that way? Really? See, I was hoping that people could come to an understanding and speak with some level of civility, but as usual, I was wrong, what a shock. Time for me to GTFO, because clearly, a civil discussion while having opposing views on politics is nothing but a half-assed vain effort. Peace out.


I didn't say everyone feels that way, just that it's hard to have a discourse with those that do.  It's a wall that's impossible to climb.  My brother is an alt-right Trump supporter, so I'd know, I've tried to climb it several times.


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## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I didn't say everyone feels that way, just that it's hard to have a discourse with those that do.  It's a wall that's impossible to climb.



Ah, so there's no point in even engaging with those with opposing opinions/views, gotcha. Can't win, don't try. Ciao.


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## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Ah, so there's no point in even engaging with those with opposing opinions/views, gotcha. Can't win, don't try. Ciao.


I mean, the racist isn't going to convince others to be racist, and the others aren't going to convince the racist to not be racist, so in a sense, yeah.  There's some discourse to be had while dancing around the subject, but it always comes up eventually.


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## cots (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I dunno, a big part of Trump's platform was the anti-PC stuff, aka "fuck your feelings."  It's hard to have a civil discourse when one side believes people with racist/bigoted views should be able to spew their bile in public and not feel shamed for it.



People who still believe that racism and bigotry is still the way the majority of people act are not helping the situation. It's also pretty damn rude to call people "racist" and "bigot" without really knowing the definition and just repeating what you've read on ABC. Liberals preach equality, but they constantly try to control people and anyone who doesn't agree with them is at least called those words (not to mention people that lose their jobs, health care, housing, get targeted by the IRS for simply believing something different.) Sure, there are intolerable people all around us, but they are just a vocal minorities.


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## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Remember guys, black unemployment has reached historic lows, the economy is on the up and up, the Korean War seems to be winding down, tax reform has passed and people's wages are going up, the individual mandate has been repealed and we somehow didn't witness people dying en masse as a result, and now we need to depose the president as quickly as possible. He's clearly insane, this is the exact opposite of what we expected, which must mean that he's crazy.

See @Xzi, the thing here's what you don't understand about Trump - he's a package deal. I'm pretty sure he did sleep with that porn star, he's rude, he goes on rants on Twitter, he jumps between unrelated talking points when he's speaking, he's not "presidential" and he keeps firing people faster than he can hire new ones. People are okay with that because *we already knew that* when he started his campaign, we all watched The Apprentice, we all knew he was a playboy in the 90's, all of his flaws were immediately priced in because they were right there in the open.

That's not what Clinton was - her flaws are all the world's most poorly-kept secrets, everything she does or says comes across as shady, disingenuous, effectively robotic because we all know it's not her talking, it's just canned speech devised by a PR department somewhere. That, and her less-than-transparent charity, makes her come across as a fake cardboard cutout. Meanwhile, whenever Trump opens his mouth or tweets, you know that you've got a very brief insight into his mind, for better or for worse - the man can't shut up to save himself.

The only equivalent on your side is Bernie, but he's an actual old crazy person from Loonbagia, so his chances for election are about as good as those of the Lucky Charms leprechaun. I'm not even sure if he'll be alive come 2020, but to be fair, he's 569 years old as it is so anything can happen. As long as we supply him with pudding cups he might be alright.


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## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

cots said:


> Sure, there are intolerable people all around us, but they are just a vocal minorities.


Indeed.  The problem is that Trump gives them a larger platform to spread their hatred and convince themselves that they are the majority.



cots said:


> People are okay with that because *we already knew that* when he started his campaign, we all watched The Apprentice, we all knew he was a playboy in the 90's, all of his flaws were immediately priced in because they were right there in the open.


He paid a porn star hush money during the campaign.  Russia did everything possible to assist in his election and hurt Hillary's chances.  His flaws were not in the open, he just used his Alzheimer's to distract from the truly criminal and unethical behavior.  And no, people certainly are not okay with all this, Trump's approval ratings are historical lows for the first two years in office.  He gets 40% at best, usually closer to 30%.  If he starts a war, even some of his supporters will abandon him, as he campaigned on a strictly "America first" nationalist platform.


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## cots (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Indeed.  The problem is that Trump gives them a larger platform to spread their hatred and convince themselves that they are the majority.



They aren't the majority. I mean, real Alt-Right wingnuts are rare, but very vocal. Alt-Right are like Neo Nazi's. I get sick of the media trying to say if you have Republican values that you are "alt-right". I don't like being compared to extremest that ignore the law, try to tell other people what to do, what to believe and hold in massive hatred inside of them. I grew up in a small farming town and mostly all of the farmers and their kids were pretty racist. We had maybe 3 black kids in our Middle School (none in Elementary). So I grew up believing that black people were inferior until I got older and realized that they weren't. If I would have only taken one sides word for it I would probably still dislike black people, but I opened my mind and learned other points of view. Normal democrats and republicans aren't so bad, it's a shame that the media focuses on the loud mouth, attention seeking, control freaks.


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## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

cots said:


> People who still believe that racism and bigotry is still the way the majority of people act are not helping the situation. It's also pretty damn rude to call people "racist" and "bigot" without really knowing the definition and just repeating what you've read on ABC. Liberals preach equality, but they constantly try to control people and anyone who doesn't agree with them is at least called those words (not to mention people that lose their jobs, health care, housing, get targeted by the IRS for simply believing something different.) Sure, there are intolerable people all around us, but they are just a vocal minorities.


"Agree with me or you're a sexist, racist, bigoted homophobe who hates the disabled" is such a constant in modern political discourse that I've began to tune it out, like white noise. There's only so many times you can call someone all those things before these words lose all meaning, and they shouldn't because there are real bigots out there. Very few and very far between, but they're despised universally, by the left and the right. "Fuck your feelings" is an absolute necessity in this day and age, it's the only thing that can turn the tide of PC and actually allow us to have meaningful conversations without jumping at each other's throats. If we just agree from the outset that "how we feel" about things doesn't matter, we can move forward. If we don't, we'll just regress into more and more chaos. Your post really cheered me up, it's rare to see an actual moderate who'll look at both sides and use reason to determine what's likely to be true, try to distill what's really going on and make decisions based on that.


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## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

cots said:


> They aren't the majority. I mean, real Alt-Right wingnuts are rare, but very vocal. Alt-Right are like Neo Nazi's. I get sick of the media trying to say if you have Republican values that you are "alt-right". I don't like being compared to extremest that ignore the law, try to tell other people what to do, what to believe and hold in massive hatred inside of them. I grew up in a small farming town and mostly all of the farmers and their kids were pretty racist. We had maybe 3 black kids in our Middle School (none in Elementary). So I grew up believing that black people were inferior until I got older and realized that they weren't. If I would have only taken one sides word for it I would probably still dislike black people, but I opened my mind and learned other points of view. Normal democrats and republicans aren't so bad, it's a shame that the media focuses on the loud mouth, attention seeking, control freaks.


Traditional Republicans are becoming a rare breed because the party was first co-opted by the Tea Party, and now it's been co-opted by Trump.  The Republican party is losing all their values because Trump has no values.  A majority of Evangelicals would continue to support him even if he fucked a cantaloupe on live TV.  These people really have no shame or feel for hypocrisy any longer.  I wish we could have the Republicans of the 90s back, even despite their flaws.


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## Viri (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm pretty sure he did sleep with that porn star,


DRUMPF FUCKED A PORN STAR 10 YEARS AGO, IMPEACH!


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## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Viri said:


> DRUMPF FUCKED A PORN STAR 10 YEARS AGO, IMPEACH!


The cover-up during an election is obviously a bigger story than the fact that Trump has had to pay for every time he's had sex.  Although I recall a blowjob supposedly being enough to impeach Clinton on its own.

Oh, and the Stormy Daniels lawsuit ended up tying into the Russia investigation, which was quite amusing.  Turns out a Russian oligarch may have reimbursed Michael Cohen (Trump's lawyer) after he made the payment to Daniels.


----------



## Viri (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The cover-up during an election is obviously a bigger story than the fact that Trump has had to pay for every time he's had sex.


And I'm sure he grabbed her by the pussy too!


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## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Traditional Republicans are becoming a rare breed because the party was first co-opted by the Tea Party, and now it's been co-opted by Trump.  The Republican party is losing all their values because Trump has no values.  A majority of Evangelicals would continue to support him even if he fucked a cantaloupe on live TV.  These people really have no shame or feel for hypocrisy any longer.  I wish we could have the Republicans of the 90s back, even despite their flaws.


What was wrong with the Tea Party? Their primary goal was to reduce the size and scope of government - something you could get behind based on your sentiments regarding the military. I don't know what you heard on TV, but they weren't particularly interested in social issues. To be fair though, the "Tea Party" wasn't exactly uniform, it was an amalgamation of individuals with varied views on social issues and a similar approach towards government.


Viri said:


> DRUMPF FUCKED A PORN STAR 10 YEARS AGO, IMPEACH!


You're too funny.


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## cots (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> "Agree with me or you're a sexist, racist, bigoted homophobe who hates the disabled" is such a constant in modern political discourse that I've began to tune it out, like white noise. There's only so many times you can call someone like that before those words lose all meaning, and they shouldn't because there are real bigots out there. Very few and very far between, but they're despised universally, by the left and the right. "Fuck your feelings" is an absolute necessity in this day and age, it's the only thing that can turn the tide of PC and actually allow us to have meaningful conversations without jumping at each other's throats. If we just agree from the outset that "how we feel" about things doesn't matter, we can move forward. If we don't, we'll just regress into more and more chaos. Your post really cheered me up, it's rare to see an actual moderate who'll look at both sides and use reason to determine what's likely to be true, try to distill what's really going on and make decisions based on that.



Liberals are too focused on the way they feel and think the way to live is the please everyone. I was taught to deal with my emotions in a positive way instead of holding them inside and letting them control me. Liberals just don't understand how the world works and live in some fantasy land. Kids these days are not properly taught to deal with their emotions and conflict; take for example a bully. When I was young and someone would bully me my Dad told me to "beat the shit out of him and he won't bug you again". Ironically it worked and most of the people I fought ended up becoming my friends (I fought a lot, I lived in a rural farming town and was a skinny nerd. I wouldn't always win, that's for sure, but if you don't stand up against bullies you won't get respect). So now a days kids get bullied, but are unequipped with the skills to deal with stuff rationally so they end up killing themselves, shooting each other, require medication and counseling to deal with not dealing with things properly when all they had to do is stand up for themselves. A lot of times when you do "stand your ground" the bully will simply back down, but you also have to be reading to defend yourself if you are physically attacked. Letting the way you feel control your life is not living a productive life in society, but Liberals don't care about that as all they want to do is let their feelings control them and have no self control and have society be "okay" with that.


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## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> What was wrong with the Tea Party? Their primary goal was to reduce the size and scope of government - something you could get behind based on your sentiments regarding the military. I don't know what you heard on TV, but they weren't particularly interested in social issues. To be fair though, the "Tea Party" wasn't exactly uniform, it was an amalgamation of individuals with varied views on social issues and a similar approach towards government.


Eh, it was the same "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" nonsense coming from the top down.  They'd never advocate cuts to the military, only cuts to social spending, healthcare, the EPA, etc.  Smaller government with the intention of making it more efficient is fine, but all we've had in recent years is smaller government with the intention of choking out services that people rely on for their livelihood.

Also, I doubted their intentions.  Republicans haven't been fiscally responsible for decades.  GWB and Trump are record spenders, and we never get anything in return for all their spending.


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## cots (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Traditional Republicans are becoming a rare breed because the party was first co-opted by the Tea Party, and now it's been co-opted by Trump.  The Republican party is losing all their values because Trump has no values.  A majority of Evangelicals would continue to support him even if he fucked a cantaloupe on live TV.  These people really have no shame or feel for hypocrisy any longer.  I wish we could have the Republicans of the 90s back, even despite their flaws.



The Tea-Party and the Alt-Right are both very vocal minorities that the Liberals like to focus on and tell their audience that "these are how all republicans are". If they would report on the actual majority they would have not so much to shock people with. The Liberal media is giving these minorities a lot more attention then they deserve. The Republican party is pretty split by Trump as he's not a politician and does what he thinks best for America and doesn't do what they want him to do. A lot of top players dislike him because of this. Everyone always talks about "draining the swamp", but when it happens they complain if it doesn't happen they complain and if nothing happens they complain.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The cover-up during an election is obviously a bigger story than the fact that Trump has had to pay for every time he's had sex.
> 
> Oh, and the Stormy Daniels lawsuit ended up tying into the Russia investigation, which was quite amusing.  Turns out a Russian oligarch may have reimbursed Michael Cohen (Trump's lawyer) after he made the payment to Daniels.


It's so incredibly entertaining that an investigation that, over the course of nearly 2 years, produced zero evidence of collusion has now completely divorced itself from attempting to prove any manipulation of the election results and is now more interested in Trump's personal dealings, including what kind of pussy he likes to grab. It's going to be really funny when the charade is over and Mueller has to admit in front of the world that he didn't find a thing. Remember, all of this started with the idea that Russia attempted to maliciously swing an election, of which there's still no evidence, and now we're more interested in Cohen's slush fund for Trump whores. We're so removed from the original point of the investigation that I fail to see how it could continue for much longer, and you're not going to be happy with the results.

As for the "oligarch reimbursement", that's total nonsense. Cohen was hired by Columbus Nova LLC, an *American* company and subsidiary of Renova, owned by Andrew Intrater, as a consultant. The conspiracy theory goes that since Intrater is a cousin of Victor Vekselberg owner of Renova, and since Renova lost money on the stock market when the U.S. put sanctions on Russia,  it must've been *evil Russian Putinbucks!* whereas in reality chances are that Columbus Nova just wanted some consultation on how to operate effectively in Trump's America and Cohen, a lawyer nobody who deals with Trump's minor issues, happened to be available. There's nothing there, you're assigning guilt by association. You're so many levels removed from Trump it's not even funny - there's a porn actress getting money from a lawyer who's getting money from an American business that's getting money from a Russian business that's getting money from an oligarch who, presumably, is getting orders from Putin? Okay. Stormy must have grade-A pussy, or, more likely, you're getting wrapped up in tinfoil and red string.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

cots said:


> The Republican party is pretty split by Trump as he's not a politician and does what he thinks best for America and doesn't do what they want him to do. A lot of top players dislike him because of this. Everyone always talks about "draining the swamp", but when it happens they complain if it doesn't happen they complain and if nothing happens they complain.


Don't get it twisted, "top players" dislike Trump for the same reasons that most of us do.  He's disorganized, lazy (at his golf resort resort most of the time), rude, unethical, and criminal.  People warp this into "they hate him because he's different," but different is not a free pass to skirt the law.  Clinton was impeached for a lot less than what Trump has done, and Obama would've been impeached for even a tenth of it (to paraphrase Flynn's comments on Hillary).



Foxi4 said:


> It's so incredibly entertaining that an investigation that, over the course of nearly 2 years, produced zero evidence of collusion has now completely divorced itself from attempting to prove any manipulation of the election results and is now more interested in Trump's personal dealings, including what kind of pussy he likes to grab.


Misleading.  The financials of a Russian oligarch transferring money to Trump's lawyer have nothing to do with the personal aspects of this case, which will get plenty of air during the Stormy Daniels lawsuit.



Foxi4 said:


> It's going to be really funny when the charade is over and Mueller has to admit in front of the world that he didn't find a thing.


Holy shit are you ever dreaming.  Even the Senate intelligence committee found evidence of collusion, and the scope/clearance of their investigation was nowhere near the level of Mueller's.  The last few days have seen a lot more of the dominoes fall in this case and a lot more of the Trump-Russia connections are becoming clearer.  Cambridge Analytica and the NRA are probably the most obvious among them.


----------



## Viri (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Obama would've been impeached for even a tenth of it


How come Obama wasn't impeached for having the ATF smuggle a shit ton of guns to Mexico, and causing gang members to get high powered assault rifles. Or is that not 1/10th of the nono stuff Trump did? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

Oh, and can someone tell me what the very first thing Obama invoked executive privilege on? I forgot.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Don't get it twisted, "top players" dislike Trump for the same reasons that most of us do.  He's disorganized, lazy (at his golf resort resort most of the time), rude, unethical, and criminal.  People warp this into "they hate him because he's different," but different is not a free pass to skirt the law.  Clinton was impeached for a lot less than what Trump has done, and Obama would've been impeached for even a tenth of it (to paraphrase Flynn's comments on Hillary).
> 
> It's so incredibly entertaining that an investigation that, over the course of nearly 2 years, produced zero evidence of collusion has now completely divorced itself from attempting to prove any manipulation of the election results and is now more interested in Trump's personal dealings, including what kind of pussy he likes to grab.
> 
> ...


See post above. Trump will serve the rest of his term, and after that there's a fair chance he'll serve another 4 years. The sooner you come to terms with that the sooner you can start making America great again with the rest of us.


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## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Viri said:


> How come Obama wasn't impeached for having the ATF smuggle a shit ton of guns to Mexico, and causing gang members to get high powered assault rifles. Or is that not 1/10th of the nono stuff Trump did? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal


Yes, it happened under Obama, but even your own link contradicts that Obama ordered the operation.

"*Gunwalking*", or "*letting guns walk*", was a tactic of the *Arizona Field Office of the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives*"

As a matter of fact, these various gunwalking operations began under GWB and barely extended into Obama's first term:

"The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007."



Foxi4 said:


> See post above. Trump will serve the rest of his term, and after that there's a fair chance he'll serve another 4 years. The sooner you come to terms with that the sooner you can start making America great again with the rest of us.


In two years Trump will be a fucking potato.  Like I said, removal for mental health reasons is likely if he's not removed for criminal charges.  The sooner you accept that the swamp in DC is at the highest point it's ever been right now, the better.  Oh, and by my count, it seems like you'd rather make Israel and Iran great again before having the first thought about any American citizen.


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## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I mean, the racist isn't going to convince others to be racist, and the others aren't going to convince the racist to not be racist, so in a sense, yeah.  There's some discourse to be had while dancing around the subject, but it always comes up eventually.



Gee, I find that very comforting, no really. I should engage in civil political discussions more often, totally not in vain at all.


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## cots (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> See post above. Trump will serve the rest of his term, and after that there's a fair chance he'll serve another 4 years. The sooner you come to terms with that the sooner you can start making America great again with the rest of us.



I think he'll get reelected no problem. I'll vote for him again. The economy is doing so much better than what happened under Obama. I remember the Liberal sites reporting on "48,000" jobs were created this month, but Trump has the unemployed down to such a historic rate and they don't report on it - at all (at least not in their headlines like they did with Obama). There is more spending, people are making more money, more stores are opening - business is good. Hell, even people can afford to buy business jets again (I wish I was one of them). I watched a lot of stores close and watched one of my favorite stores become a ghost town (they had to sell off part of their parking lot to pay the bills). Now I go there are I have to wait in line and there are actually knowledgeable staff on hand (under Obama most were let go and they hired a bunch of morons to replace them). Some say this is the result of the Obama administration. That's wrong. The result of Obamas administration was clear for about 2 years after he left office. Trump is turning things around. The sooner the Liberals can accept this and stop fussing over his personal life maybe we can work together, but I doubt that will happen. Liberals believe things must be their way or no way at all. Reminds me of the leader of North Korea.


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## Viri (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Yes, it happened under Obama, but even your own link contradicts that Obama ordered the operation.
> 
> "*Gunwalking*", or "*letting guns walk*", was a tactic of the *Arizona Field Office of the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives*"
> 
> ...


Uhu, and he let it go on until 2011, totally innocent, and 100% Bush's fault! Tell me once again, what was the very first thing Obama invoked executive privilege on, and why did he do it? Is this not 1/10 of all the nono stuff that FUCKING DRUMPF did?


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Viri said:


> Uhu, and he let it go on until 2011, totally innocent, and 100% Bush's fault! Tell me once again, what was the very first thing Obama invoked executive privilege on, and why did he do it? Is this not 1/10 of all the nono stuff that FUCKING DRUMPF did?


It never should've happened, but it's stupid to blame GWB or Obama for it.  These were ATF operations.



the_randomizer said:


> Gee, I find that very comforting, no really. I should engage in civil political discussions more often, totally not in vain at all.


It's never in vain as long as you're not talking to certain unsavory individuals.  Most people are open to new ideas and viewpoints, some people just want to keep themselves inside their Fox/CNN bubbles.


----------



## Viri (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> It never should've happened, but it's stupid to blame GWB or Obama for it. These were ATF operations.


They allowed it to go on, and once again, can you tell me what the very first thing Obama invoked executive privilege on? And why did he do such a thing?


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> It never should've happened, but it's stupid to blame GWB or Obama for it.  These were ATF operations.
> 
> 
> It's never in vain as long as you're not talking to certain unsavory individuals.  Most people are open to new ideas and viewpoints, some people just want to keep themselves inside their Fox/CNN bubbles.



Well it sure as hell feels like it's in vain, because from what I see, no one ever wants to agree on anything.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Viri said:


> They allowed it to go on, and once again, can you tell me what the very first thing Obama invoked executive privilege on? And why did he do such a thing?


Honestly, you're being naive here.  The CIA, ATF, and other US institutions have been selling/trading/giving away arms for decades, if not for a century now.  If you think it's not going on under Trump right this moment, you're smoking some stronger shit than me.  It's only a matter of if the public finds out about it.



the_randomizer said:


> Well it sure as hell feels like it's in vain, because from what I see, no one ever wants to agree on anything.


The point is never to agree on everything.  The point is a reasoned discourse that can lead to a better understanding of each other's views and perhaps a common middle ground.  It's getting harder as the right is moving further right and telling us that it's the left which has moved, though.  "Alternative facts" might well be the ultimate downfall of the US.

The pendulum always swings back in American politics.  Trump and the Republicans own everything right now, which means the checks and balances are not working as they should.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (May 18, 2018)

blujay said:


> *ignores rest of my point*
> Has Clinton or Obama denounced alt-left leaders/groups (like Antifa?). Honestly, I don't care enough to argue with you when you don't even respond to the rest of my point, so I didn't do more than a quick google search about Clinton or Obama denouncing groups like Antifa, so if they have please inform me.


http://time.com/4259468/obama-trump-violence-rallies/

Not directly, but heavily implied

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



the_randomizer said:


> And Clinton looked like an washed up pornstar who had a rough career. I'm glad that back-peddling bitch is not in office.


I'm sorry? Since when have we stooped to making fun of female politicians appearances? Why would you think that's ok?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



the_randomizer said:


> I'm not being misogynist,how dare you accuse me of such?


I'm sorry dude, but you can't say that one of your reasons for being glad a woman isn't in office is because she looks like a "washed-up pornstar" and then completely duck out of any criticism from the fallout. Even if you yourself are not misogynistic, that was an incredibly misogynist comment, and if you're parroting that from someone else you might want to reevaluate what role they play in your life

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Viri said:


> DRUMPF FUCKED A PORN STAR 10 YEARS AGO, IMPEACH!


Bill Clinton was impeached for less


----------



## Deleted User (May 18, 2018)

can't believe i need to read this political shit here too.

Hamas themselves said that 50 people that was killed belong to their group. they are terrorist that put guns on little children and force them to go to the border. hamas hide behind helpless people. leader Hamas himself said that they not doing harmless protests. they want to hurt us as much as possible. israel doing what every country will do in their situation. protecting themselves.
It's either them or us.
when they protest they shooting on us and puting improvised explosive devices near to the fence. they using their own pepole as a shield.
they have so many other country's to go to. we have only one small country. and this country is more free and democratic than any other muslim country in the world.
 90% of the money we and the world send to gaza is going to hamas. and instead of using the money to make the life of the poor pepole in gaza better they buying wepons, bombs and missiles.
you all relying on what you hear in the news.
i live there and i was in the army and now my brother is in the army and i know some things that they won't tell you in the news.
for example did you know that Israel tried number of times to deliver Humanitarian aid to gaza but hamas didnt let them pass. other example: one poor palestinian came to the fence and said to our soldiers that hamas want pay him unless they shoot him in the legs. they didnt do it. there are many more examples you not going to hear. one final thing. if protests really was harmless we wouldn't kill a single person.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Bill Clinton was impeached for less


Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury before a grand jury which is a felony punishable by fine and/or imprisonment for up to 5 years under 18 U.S. Code § 1621.


sergey3000 said:


> can't believe i need to read this political shit here too.
> 
> Hamas themselves said that 50 people that was killed belong to their group. they are terrorist that put guns on little children and force them to go to the border. hamas hide behind helpless people. leader Hamas himself said that they not doing harmless protests. they want to hurt us as much as possible. israel doing what every country will do in their situation. protecting themselves.
> It's either them or us.
> ...


On that last part, I did mention that HAMAS is paying civilians for becoming meat shields, but I posted the wrong figures - it's actually $200 for an injury, $500 for grievous injury and $3000 for death (paid out to the "martyr's" family, of course), significantly more than I originally thought. Israeli soldiers were instructed not to shoot to kill and were ordered to incapacitate attackers unless lethal force is absolutely necessary, so people are running at the border fence, getting shot in the leg, as most of the wounded were (to my knowledge) and then they're heading straight to the authorities to get their juicy check, and they will continue to do so because over there $200-$500 is a whole lot of money. It's truly disgusting. Speaking of casualties, remember that 8 month old child that, as we were told, died due to deployment of tear gas? The child shouldn't have been there in the first place, but besides that, as it turns out, she actually died due to a pre-existing medical condition, according to a statement by a Gazan doctor who examined her. All a lie to pin the death of a toddler on Israel, but now the photo's already out there, so the damage is done - everyone thinks IDF kill kids on purpose even though it's a complete falsehood.


----------



## matthi321 (May 18, 2018)

what a shithole


----------



## Taleweaver (May 18, 2018)

Okay...this thread is becoming pretty long. As I hoped, I got some replies from different sides. I'm not going to comment on everything (just the direct quotes on my behalf), but that isn't because I'm not interested. I do know that true objectivity is hard to come by, and even though I don't like hearing some things, it wouldn't be fair to dismiss it...





Hanafuda said:


> Ok that's as far as I got.


I added the quotations because I wasn't familiar with the organisation. Since they (apparently?) offend you, I removed them. But if such a trivial thing sets you off, I don't think you'd want to continue reading in the first place.


cots said:


> This is what you get when you only read about the subject on Liberal news sites. Why not trying to educate yourself from others sources too? Don't take one groups word on it or what you learned in grade school (as they have implemented various tactics in the past 30 years to indoctrinate children into their party). College is a good resource, make sure to read Republican sites too and try out community focused stuff like Wikipedia. My Sisters husband is Jewish and he is also a democrat, but he will go on and on about how Obama and Clinton screwed things up more and more. See, normal democrats have their own minds, but Liberals are just sheep (same for Alt-Right whereas normal Republicans aren't so extreme, but don't let CNN tell you that.)


I haven't forgotten last time I attempted reasoning with you. Next time you ignore what I say, I'll return the courtesy and put you on my ignore list.


----------



## lolboy (May 18, 2018)

sergey3000 said:


> i live there and i was in the army and now my brother is in the army and i know some things that they won't tell you in the news.



*Me:*
Everyone no need to seek the truth anymore! Some guy on gbatemp says he was in the army and he knows everything! If that is not convenient for you then wait there is more! His brother is also in the army!

*Random guy: *
Really? What did he say about killing of the innocent?

*Me: *
He said that there are no innocent people. All the people that were killed by snipers were carrying explosive devices and Hamas forced them!

*Random guy: *
Wait what? Saddam and Al-qaeda had a baby and he is now raised by Hamas? We need to invade now!


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

lolboy said:


> *Me:*
> Everyone no need to seek the truth anymore! Some guy on gbatemp says he was in the army and he knows everything! If that is not convenient for you then wait there is more! His brother is also in the army!
> 
> *Random guy: *
> ...


You do realise that HAMAS themselves announced this, right? A high-ranking official said during an interview that among the casualties of the recent clash they've identified 50 HAMAS militants. They weren't innocent, they were Palestinian operatives. You don't have to "believe a guy on GBATemp", HAMAS themselves are telling you that this is the case. You can choose to be willfully ignorant, but don't double down on stupid - it's a bad look.


----------



## lolboy (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> You do realise that HAMAS themselves announced this, right? A high-ranking official said during an interview that among the casualties of the recent clash they've identified 50 HAMAS militants. They weren't innocent, they were Palestinian operatives. You don't have to "believe a guy on GBATemp", HAMAS themselves are telling you that this is the case. You can choose to be willfully ignorant, but don't double down on stupid - it's a bad look.



Dude...I get it. You like to defend Israel.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury before a grand jury which is a felony punishable by fine and/or imprisonment for up to 5 years under 18 U.S. Code § 1621.


I'm fully aware of the reason he was impeached. I'm also fairly confident in stating that Trump were in court right now, we'd have a similar statement in the Stormy Daniels front. Quite frankly I'm interested as to what he'd say under oath because there are a lot of things regarding ties to various entities that he's said in the past that he's either flip-flopped on or been proven to be lying about


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm fully aware of the reason he was impeached. I'm also fairly confident in stating that Trump were in court right now, we'd have a similar statement in the Stormy Daniels front. Quite frankly I'm interested as to what he'd say under oath because there are a lot of things regarding ties to various entities that he's said in the past that he's either flip-flopped on or been proven to be lying about


He doesn't have to testify, and neither did Bill. Bill's biggest mistake was volunteering to testify and not pleading the fifth. A sitting president is not obligated to testify about their private matters, they are however obligated to tell the truth under oath. It is not illegal to fuck porn stars, it is illegal to lie before Congress. That, and Bill was a much bigger sleazebag than Trump - in many cases consent was... shall we say, "questionable". If he was a President today, he wouldn't just be impeached, #metoo would hang him. People have short memories.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Bill Clinton was impeached for perjury before a grand jury which is a felony punishable by fine and/or imprisonment for up to 5 years under 18 U.S. Code § 1621.


If Trump ever goes under oath, he'll perjure himself ten times in ten seconds.  It's why the whole "I want to interview with Mueller" schtick is disingenuous bullshit.



Foxi4 said:


> That, and Bill was a much bigger sleazebag than Trump - in many cases consent was... shall we say, "questionable".


Rofl, Trump's talked about fucking his own daughter and constantly makes sexual remarks about underaged girls.  It doesn't get any more sleazebag than that.  Here's Bill Gates' comments from just yesterday, discussing how creeped out he was about Trump knowing so much about his daughter, her appearance in particular:

http://time.com/5282132/bill-gates-donald-trump-daughter/

If Clinton was a playboy, Trump is a fucking pedo.  Just another one of those "quirks" that his mostly-degenerate fanbase eats up about him.  And questionable consent?  "Grab her by the pussy" was not a Bill Clinton line, that much I can assure you.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> If Trump ever goes under oath, he'll perjure himself ten times in ten seconds.  It's why the whole "I want to interview with Mueller" schtick is disingenuous bullshit.
> 
> 
> Rofl, Trump's talked about fucking his own daughter and constantly makes sexual remarks about underaged girls.  It doesn't get any more sleazebag than that.  Here's Bill Gates' comments from just yesterday, discussing how creeped out he was about Trump knowing so much about his daughter, her appearance in particular:
> ...


Mueller has already conceded that he's not going to push for an indictment and Trump can't be subponead, it's over. Even deposing him on mental health grounds as you suggest is impossible provided you know how the process actually works. Trump could be a genuine basket case wearing clown clothing to work and talking in tongues and you're still not going to get a Senate majority to approve Section IV, so he'd effectively get a 21-day vacation. Abandon hope. As for Bill, he's about as close as you can get to a rapist, but you're welcome to have a different opinion on Bill "Weinstein" Clinton.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Mueller has already conceded that he's not going to push for an indictment and Trump can't be subponead, it's over.


I've only heard this from clearly fake right-wing sources like Giuliani.  Mueller's team doesn't make a bunch of public statements, they stay professional.



Foxi4 said:


> As for Bill, he's about as close as you can get to a rapist, but you're welcome to have a different opinion on Bill "Weinstein" Clinton.


I don't defend Clinton's actions, it's just ridiculous that you refuse to acknowledge how much worse Trump's actions have been.  Both Bill and Donald are known associates of Harvey Epstein.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I've only heard this from clearly fake right-wing sources like Giuliani.  Mueller's team doesn't make a bunch of public statements, they stay professional.
> 
> I don't defend Clinton's actions, it's just ridiculous that you refuse to acknowledge how much worse Trump's actions have been.  Both Bill and Donald are known associates of Harvey Epstein.


His team doesn't make any statements because they have nothing on the Donald. As for Epstein, he's not in charge of where Bill puts his penis. Like I said before, Trump is a package deal with the pussy already priced in, Clinton lied in front of Congress that he was clean when in fact, he was covered in effluvia. As it stands, one of them is a criminal, the other one is the sitting president of the U.S.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 18, 2018)

lolboy said:


> Dude...I get it. You like to defend Israel.



As I recall, supporting a particular country isn't a criminal offense. And speaking of crimes, collusion with Russia isn't technically illegal, either. So there's that. Israel is the only US ally in the middle east.

As far as I can tell, MS-13 and Hamas can all burn in hell for all I care.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> His team doesn't make any statements because they have nothing on the Donald.


The fact that you or anyone calls him "the" Donald is a real testament to their level of impartiality on his guilt.  US-based banks have refused to loan to Trump for the longest time because he welches on all his debts.  Before Trump even thought about running for president he was getting his money from "elsewhere."  You have to be shitting me if you think an independent investigation looking closely into all of Trump's finances won't find anything illegal.  They've got fucking *everything* Cohen had, and he's definitely going down for a lot of it.  None of it tying back to Trump, however?  Very unlikely.



Foxi4 said:


> Like I said before, Trump is a package deal with the pussy already priced in, Clinton lied in front of Congress that he was clean when in fact, he was covered in effluvia.


Still ignoring the porn star hush payoff *during the election period,* but okay.  You justify hypocrisy however you like.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 18, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The fact that you or anyone calls him "the" Donald is a real testament to their level of impartiality on his guilt.  US-based banks have refused to loan to Trump for the longest time because he welches on all his debts.  Before Trump even thought about running for president he was getting his money from "elsewhere."  You have to be shitting me if you think an independent investigation looking closely into all of Trump's finances won't find anything illegal.  They've got fucking *everything* Cohen had, and he's definitely going down for a lot of it.  None of it tying back to Trump, however?  Very unlikely.
> 
> 
> Still ignoring the porn star hush payoff *during the election period,* but okay.  You justify hypocrisy however you like.


You do realise that payments made to Michael Cohen implicate Michael Cohen, not Trump, right? Assuming that we are in the conspiracy theory reality you want to live in, this still isn't a problem for the POTUS. As of today no evidence presented implicates the president in any way, criminal or otherwise. You talk the big game, but you don't seem to be familiar with all the laws you're referring to. Michael Cohen can be hired by any company at any time, he's not Trump's slave and he wasn't a part of the campaign effort. What you're desperately clinging to is the "donation in kind" regulation, this does not wash when the payment is, number one, unrelated to Trump, and number to, not a donation towards the campaign. This does not violate campaign finance law. You know what does? Hilary's slush fund. It's funny how donations from Saudi Arabia dried up when she lost the race, look like the Saudis aren't that interested in charity. The investigation is a fool's errand and Mueller knows this, the DOJ will have to hand over documentation to the congressional committee and the whole deal will be promptly closed shut in due time.

I do have a question though - if it turns out that Trump is indeed completely innocent in all this and the two-year investigation ends with no impropriety found, will you change your tune about Trump? Based on your rhetoric I think you just hate the man more than anything else and you got bit by the collusion bug, you see it everywhere and you'll never stop. You have Trump Derangement Syndrome big time and it's affecting your ability to reason.


----------



## deinonychus71 (May 18, 2018)

Don't forget that Europe gets royally screwed by Trump's decision... cause many European companies were trading with Iran (for oil, mainly, but not only) and the price of oil is/will skyrocket again, mainly affecting Europe. Any company doing business with Iran know (in dollars, which is the international currency anyway) is in trouble, and can potentially kicked out of the american market.
So it could have to do with Trump trying to mess up with Germany again, it wouldn't be the first time.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> As of today no evidence presented implicates the president in any way, criminal or otherwise.


Of course not, Trump is the big fish.  Going after him first would make Mueller and his team look like idiots.  They're flipping one person at a time on the way up to Trump, with 23 indictments so far.



Foxi4 said:


> I do have a question though - if it turns out that Trump is indeed completely innocent in all this and the two-year investigation ends with no impropriety found, will you change your tune about Trump? Based on your rhetoric I think you just hate the man more than anything else and you got bit by the collusion bug, you see it everywhere and you'll never stop.


I do hate Trump, yes.  Not only as a sleazeball lying politician, but just as a man in general.  He was born into wealth and has never done an honest day's work in his life.  Once daddy's money was frittered away on bankrupt casinos and the like, he became a conman to pay the bills.  Yet he has the gall to call anybody else lazy and dishonest.

Even minus the Mueller investigation, Trump has emoluments scandals, pay to play scandals, over 20 women accusing him of sexual assault, and more.  Trump's swamp is spilling into other nearby states at this point.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 19, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Of course not, Trump is the big fish.  Going after him first would make Mueller and his team look like idiots.  They're flipping one person at a time on the way up to Trump, with 23 indictments so far.
> 
> 
> I do hate Trump, yes.  Not only as a sleazeball lying politician, but just as a man in general.  He was born into wealth and has never done an honest day's work in his life.  Once daddy's money was frittered away on bankrupt casinos and the like, he became a conman to pay the bills.  Yet he has the gall to call anybody else lazy and dishonest.
> ...


There's a couple billion dollars in his account that indicate he's smarter and more hard-working than most of us, but that's okay. Like I said, everything is priced in and once this fake controversy finally blows over Trump can issue pardons to anyone who was unjustly persecuted against by the investigation team, most notably General Flynn who was doing his job, could legally meet with Kislyak and was caught in the good 'ol perjury trap for unnecessarily hiding his completely legitimate meeting. Still no evidence of collusion and we're 2 years in, but you can live the dream if you want - I'm done with the subject, I just wanted you to admit your bias. We can return to the subject at hand, which is the invasion of Israel's border.


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> There's a couple billion dollars in his account that indicate he's smarter and more hard-working than most of us, but that's okay.


That's not how money works, and I'm sure you know that.  Otherwise fast food workers would be the richest people in America given the amount of product they pump out per hour.



Foxi4 said:


> Still no evidence of collusion and we're 2 years in


The US Senate and every single US intelligence agency disagree.  There's no evidence that corrupt Republicans are going to do anything about it, but we'll see how well that has worked out for them come November.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 19, 2018)

Xzi said:


> That's not how money works, and I'm sure you know that.  Otherwise fast food workers would be the richest people in America given the amount of product they pump out per hour.
> 
> 
> The US Senate and every single US intelligence agency disagree.  There's no evidence that corrupt Republicans are going to do anything about it, but we'll see how well that has worked out for them come November.


Don't worry, we can revisit this conversation when Trump's America Season 2 starts.


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Don't worry, we can revisit this conversation when Trump's America Season 2 starts.


Assuming he's not removed by then, maybe after four years in office he'll have a whole *two* items of legislation passed?


----------



## lolboy (May 19, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> As I recall, supporting a particular country isn't a criminal offense. And speaking of crimes, collusion with Russia isn't technically illegal, either. So there's that. Israel is the only US ally in the middle east.
> 
> As far as I can tell, MS-13 and Hamas can all burn in hell for all I care.



Thanks for sharing I guess...?  I don't recall asking for your invading opinion? Get it? Because you guys like to invade


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (May 19, 2018)

Xzi said:


> In other words, to avoid Nazis in the future, we'll become Nazis? Doesn't make much sense.



I think this sums up quite well what Israel is becoming.


----------



## Ericthegreat (May 19, 2018)

I remember hamas not long ago launching missels at isreal, as far as I'm concerned they shot first, iron dome or not, if misses were being shot at the us, we would all welcome a nuke.... Morally correct or not, (we did it once already).


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2018)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> I think this sums up quite well what Israel is becoming.


Definitely my thoughts as well when I heard Netanyahu is still in office after starting in 2009.

It's disappointing to say the least.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (May 19, 2018)

Ericthegreat said:


> I remember hamas not long ago launching missels at isreal, as far as I'm concerned they shot first, iron dome or not, if misses were being shot at the us, we would all welcome a nuke.... Morally correct or not, (we did it once already).


Pretty sure they shot those missiles in retaliation.


----------



## Ericthegreat (May 19, 2018)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Pretty sure they shot those missiles in retaliation.


In retaliation to what? From what I heard it was fishing lines. (Food and money are important I understand but you don't launch misses and expect no retaliation.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (May 19, 2018)

Ericthegreat said:


> In retaliation to what? From what I heard it was fishing lines. (Food and money are important I understand but you don't launch misses and expect no retaliation.


Retaliation to years  decades of oppression.


----------



## Old (May 19, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Assuming he's not removed by then, maybe after four years he'll have a whole *two* items of legislation passed?



Karma's coming FAST for the dotard....all should be wrapped up neatly, well before the end of the year.  Many of us assumed that when Cohen 'the fixer' & several Russian mobsters flipped recently that the FINAL nail in the coffin had been driven, but then ol' senile Rudy showed up on TV and PROPELLED the orange dumpster fire into *high* gear!  
He's got roughly five _decades_ of abject heinousness, villainy, and sadism to atone for, and the repub ghouls that have been enabling/aiding him will fade into the wrong side of history/die in Federal prison.  The darkest patch is over; nearly time for popcorn & rebuilding!  
#BASTA


----------



## Ericthegreat (May 19, 2018)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Retaliation to years  decades of oppression.


And that makes it okay to launch missels? I might agree, but how do you then not expect the other country to kill you and your people? I don't understand how people don't understand or agree with this. Let's say it was your house, you had all the food, and you didn't wanna share, so the people outside decide to kill you, you would let them kill you or your children? Or would you just kill them all because you can? I'm not saying it's not horrible, it's just how every great nation treats smaller nation's.


----------



## TheDarkGreninja (May 19, 2018)

Ericthegreat said:


> And that makes it okay to launch missels? I might agree, but how do you then not expect the other country to kill you and your people? I don't understand how people don't understand or agree with this. Let's say it was your house, you had all the food, and you didn't wanna share, so the people outside decide to kill you, you would let them kill you or your children? Or would you just kill them all because you can? I'm not saying it's not horrible, it's just how every great nation treats smaller nation's.



I didn't say either party was right, just they had their justification.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 19, 2018)

lolboy said:


> Thanks for sharing I guess...?  I don't recall asking for your invading opinion? Get it? Because you guys like to invade



Ha ha ha ha...ha!  That's so funny I forgot to laugh, I'll be sure to share my invading opinions more often, you know, just to solely piss you off. Sound good?

What other enlightening, condescending suggestions do you have?


----------



## Foxi4 (May 19, 2018)

TheDarkGreninja said:


> Pretty sure they shot those missiles in retaliation.


The "retaliation" narrative is completely fake and has no basis in fact - both the Israeli authorities and the international community have offered Palestinians a free and independent state both larger in territory than Israel's and with its capital in East Jerusalem, and each time Palestinians have responded with aggression. They do not want peace, or even an independent state, they want to expel the Jews from the region. This is consistent across all states in the middle east - there are barely any Jews left there outside of Israel. I'll post a little history lesson for those unfamiliar with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the British Mandate, the UN resolutions concerning the two-state solution and the many wars initiated by Palestinians in response to them.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (May 19, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> There's a couple billion dollars in his account that indicate he's smarter and more hard-working than most of us, but that's okay.


If that's genuinely what you believe, you should look up a documentary series on Netflix called "Trump: An American Dream"


----------



## lolboy (May 19, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> you know, just to solely piss you off. Sound good?



Please don’t use the “Let’s destabilize entire regions, steal resources and piss the local people off” strategy.

GBAtemp for me is a way out of reality where enough people are pissed and hurt. I am just here to enjoy content made and shared by creative minds.


----------



## Glyptofane (May 19, 2018)

Ericthegreat said:


> I remember hamas not long ago launching missels at isreal, as far as I'm concerned they shot first, iron dome or not, if misses were being shot at the us, we would all welcome a nuke.... Morally correct or not, (we did it once already).


Seems Israel actually did start calling Hamas' crude rockets "missiles" for the first time within the last year and people are actually going along with this now? Unbelievable.


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## Foxi4 (May 19, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> If that's genuinely what you believe, you should look up a documentary series on Netflix called "Trump: An American Dream"


I'm well-aware of how he makes his money. I also think people grossly underestimate him as a person - just having a rich parent who give you some money which makes you "temporarily rich" isn't enough, you also need to know how to multiply that money. If just having money in the first place was all it took, lottery winners wouldn't blow through their winnings straight back into poverty. He had his ups and his downs, but he clearly knows both how to make money and how to traverse the financial world.


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## TotalInsanity4 (May 19, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm well-aware of how he makes his money. I also think people grossly underestimate him as a person - just having a rich parent who give you some money which makes you "temporarily rich" isn't enough, you also need to know how to multiply that money. If just having money in the first place was all it took, lottery winners wouldn't blow through their winnings and straight back into poverty. He had his ups and his downs, but he clearly knows both how to make money and how to traverse the financial world.


No, I think you actually need to watch it, because he IS one of those "lottery winners" that blows his money. Literally the reason he's able to do what he does is that he has a name and uses that as leverage to ask banks for loans, which he rarely fully repays


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## Ericthegreat (May 19, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> Seems Israel actually did start calling Hamas' crude rockets "missiles" for the first time within the last year and people are actually going along with this now? Unbelievable.


Huh, they still can kill people, it doesn't matter if isreal can shoot them down, they are still firing them....


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## Foxi4 (May 19, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> No, I think you actually need to watch it, because he IS one of those "lottery winners" that blows his money. Literally the reason he's able to do what he does is that he has a name and uses that as leverage to ask banks for loans, which he rarely fully repays


Like I said, seems like he knows how to make money and how to operate in the financial world. Welcome to the world of hedge funds.


Ericthegreat said:


> Huh, they still can kill people, it doesn't matter if isreal can shoot them down, they are still firing them....


The idea that a conflict is only moral when the casualties have equal parity is idiotic - "this is bad because not enough Jews are dead" is not an argument. More dead Jews doesn't make things better, the facts on the ground are that a country that erected a fence, an Iron Dome anti-missile system and trained an advanced military force specifically to *prevent* casualties is being attacked and is effectively defending itself.


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## Ericthegreat (May 19, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The idea that a conflict is only moral when the casualties have equal parity is idiotic - "this is bad because not enough Jews are dead" is not an argument. More dead Jews doesn't make things better, the facts on the ground is that a country that erected a fence, an Iron Dome anti-missile system and trained an advanced military force specifically to *prevent* casualties is being attacked and is effectively defending itself.


I can't figure out why people even think like this, there should be no argument here. If it was any of these people's own country I'm pretty sure they'd be happy with the destruction of the other side. Imagin living in isreal, everyday thinking "is today the day the middle is gonna make it and kill me", it's like the people think they just should have no fear, and cry for palestine instead of their selves.


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## mitcha (May 19, 2018)

ppl who support israel the colonist country, you have no heart , there are handred and handred childrens wooman who ben killed by israel the sionist , without no mercy.
and you tell the world they respond to a rocket shiting lol , a rock shooting in manifestations lol.

even the ONU declare israel : colonist 

its like on WW2 when germany surounded but the RAF and airusa : kills tousends of civiliens , take a look at a documentary who you own press did at the time (Hellstorm).

for the respect of humains , palestinien are opressed every day with checkcontrol every miles , a wall of shame , a lands becaumes to colonist in just hours , palestine is a country without army , israel is a super power country and supported by USA anither super power country.

ww3 is coming soon everage 150 years , and the world end by this war , nuclear war, for what : oil , petrol , gas ....


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## Old (May 19, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> No, I think you actually need to watch it, because he IS one of those "lottery winners" that blows his money. Literally the reason he's able to do what he does is that he has a name and uses that as leverage to ask banks for loans, which he rarely fully repays



Truth told, he's flat broke.  After a lifetime of blowing through daddy drumpf's (a nazi robber baron himself) bread and 'business related' failures, he's since taken his grifting game to the White House.  How does one _fail_ in the casino business, ffs?  lol  Takes a special kind of stupid!  He's been *owned* by Putin & various Russian oligarchs for at least 20 years.  Even a modicum of research explains everything very clearly.

With Vlad's help, he shagged his way through the south and flyover states; the low IQ crowd got conned by the 'don'.   After eight (prosperous) years of Obama, their racist backlash manifested in the form of an impotent senile conman.  Sad!  
Thankfully, Bob's got a nose for bullshit and the end is in sight!


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## Xzi (May 19, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm well-aware of how he makes his money. I also think people grossly underestimate him as a person - just having a rich parent who give you some money which makes you "temporarily rich" isn't enough, you also need to know how to multiply that money.


He didn't multiply his money rofl, he lost everything (how the fuck do you even bankrupt a casino) and then turned to shadier international sources for loans which he never paid back.  Making money is easy when you're born rich, and Trump couldn't even do that right.



Old said:


> snip


The "Make America Great Again" hats made in China probably should've tipped his supporters off to his true intentions from the beginning.


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## Joe88 (May 19, 2018)

Old said:


> How does one _fail_ in the casino business


It's because the whole atlantic city area which has been doing terrible for years now and many casinos have been closing, the whole place has been dying and people have been trying to revive it by bringing new casinos but its not really working (see ap link below), eventually the whole thing will be gone within the next 10-20 years imo
https://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/new-jersey/atlantic-city/closed-casinos
http://www.businessinsider.com/atlantic-city-is-now-a-ghost-town-2017-7
https://apnews.com/a1fa0a98788448c9...-casino-revenues-down-6.5-percent-in-February
http://inthesetimes.com/working/ent...ers_Stunned_As_Casino_Economy_Begins_to_Crash


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## Xzi (May 19, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> It's because the whole atlantic city area which has been doing terrible for years now and many casinos have been closing, the whole place has been dying and people have been trying to revive it by bringing new casinos but its not really working (see ap link below), eventually the whole thing will be gone within the next 10-20 years imo
> https://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/new-jersey/atlantic-city/closed-casinos
> http://www.businessinsider.com/atlantic-city-is-now-a-ghost-town-2017-7
> https://apnews.com/a1fa0a98788448c9...-casino-revenues-down-6.5-percent-in-February
> http://inthesetimes.com/working/ent...ers_Stunned_As_Casino_Economy_Begins_to_Crash


That might be the case _now_, sure, but as the first article states, Trump opened his casino(s) beginning in 1990.  I doubt the city was also on a verge of a crash then, or none of the other casinos would've made it to today.


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## TotalInsanity4 (May 19, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> It's because the whole atlantic city area which has been doing terrible for years now and many casinos have been closing, the whole place has been dying and people have been trying to revive it by bringing new casinos but its not really working (see ap link below), eventually the whole thing will be gone within the next 10-20 years imo
> https://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/new-jersey/atlantic-city/closed-casinos
> http://www.businessinsider.com/atlantic-city-is-now-a-ghost-town-2017-7
> https://apnews.com/a1fa0a98788448c9...-casino-revenues-down-6.5-percent-in-February
> http://inthesetimes.com/working/ent...ers_Stunned_As_Casino_Economy_Begins_to_Crash


While that's true, Trump also took out multiple gigantic loans on the Trump Taj Mahal which he promised would be repaid, and then abandoned the casino and to my knowledge never paid the loans back when it crashed


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## Old (May 19, 2018)

Xzi said:


> He didn't multiply his money rofl, he lost everything (how the fuck do you even bankrupt a casino) and then turned to shadier international sources for loans which he never paid back.  Making money is easy when you're born rich, and Trump couldn't even do that right.
> 
> 
> The "Make America Great Again" hats made in China probably should've tipped his supporters off to his true intentions from the beginning.



The 'MAGA' (maggot) hats will be looked upon with shame and disdain in the future, even more than they already are, mark my words.

Someone will be cleaning out a deceased relative's house in 20 years and find one of the red caps in the bottom of a closet.....(disgusted/shocked expression)..._"M-mom?  Uncle Mike was a-a-a....??" _ (sobbing)
It'll be akin to finding a kkk robe or a nazi uniform hidden away within a beloved relative's wardrobe.


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## Megadriver94 (May 20, 2018)

Israel should at the very least leave Gaza alone, maybe let Egypt have parts of it. Ben Netanyahu is a damn war criminal who doesn't really care how many Gentiles have to die in the name of his nation.


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## AsPika2219 (Jun 2, 2018)

Poor Palestine peoples....


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## Flame (Jun 3, 2018)

both side should come to reality. cause this thing called a god is fake. my god is more real then your god. lol no. is they any evidence of this thing called a god. this thing called a god was created by one ; 3000 years or so ago, by another 2000 years or so ago,  and the other 1000 years or so ago because they fucking knew nothing.

in the "holy" books is they any real science in them? they talk about flat earth. and the world being 10,000 years old(?).

how many religion is they over the years? why is _your_ one the truth but the others load of bollocks?

Evolution is science fact. but why do religious people get so angry with it?

why does religion need so much money? cant god make it for them?





so killing in the name of your religion is beyond madness. make love. not war.


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## notimp (May 22, 2020)

First - the PR initiative:


Then green light and preparations for annexation:

"The united nations middle east envoy has called on Israel to abandon its plan to annex parts of the occupied west bank. 'The continued threat of annexation by Israel of parts of the west bank would constitute a most serious violation of international law, deal a devastating blow to the two state solution, close the door to a renewal of negotiations, and threaten efforts to advance regional peace and a broader effort to maintain international peace and security' -- on tuesday palestinian authority president Mahmud Abbas declared an end to security cooperation with Israel and the United States and said all agreements between palestine and the two countries are now null and void.

src: 
At 10 min in.


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Only 15 left in stock, order soon. 100% made in USA.


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