# Shooting takes place at Florida gaming tournament



## PRAGMA (Aug 26, 2018)

WARNING DISTURBING, ONLY WATCH IF YOUR SURE.
Sad times 


Spoiler








Its apparently 15 total victims now 
Jacksonville Landing shooting: 15 total victims. 4 dead. Per my sources.— Vic Micolucci WJXT (@WJXTvic) August 26, 2018


One suspect is dead at the scene, unknown at this time if we have a second suspect.  Searches are being conducted. https://t.co/qBJvkaO7xT— Jax Sheriff's Office (@JSOPIO) August 26, 2018


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.


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## VitaType (Aug 26, 2018)

Guess I will never really understand why people doing such things. Well, maybe that's also a good thing somehow...




snails1221 said:


> [ snip - shaunj66 ]


Just don't. Don't.


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## Ric-Are-Those (Aug 26, 2018)

You know life is just great when you wake up to complain that August is almost over and there's no CFW in sight and you see this on the front page. 

A meteor needs to take us and soon


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

VitaType said:


> Guess I will never really understand why people doing such things. Well, maybe that's also a good thing somehow...



I fail  to see how is a good thing, that a psycho goes nut and start killing people.


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## snails1221 (Aug 26, 2018)

WildDog said:


> I fail  to see how is a good thing, that a psycho goes nut and start killing people.


He meant a good thing that he doesn't understand their mindset


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## VitaType (Aug 26, 2018)

WildDog said:


> I fail  to see how is a good thing, that a psycho goes nut and start killing people.


I mean maybe it's a good thing that I don't understand how people can do something like that.


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## Yiffna (Aug 26, 2018)

Sad news. Hopefully the injured will be ok. To go from playing a game to facing gun fire is unimaginable.


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## snails1221 (Aug 26, 2018)

VitaType said:


> Guess I will never really understand why people doing such things. Well, maybe that's also a good thing somehow...
> 
> 
> 
> Just don't. Don't.


Just don't what? I meant that in a perfectly respectful manner


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## nolimits59 (Aug 26, 2018)

WildDog said:


> I fail  to see how is a good thing, that a psycho goes nut and start killing people.


Well, some people always think that there is a balance in life in general, i guess i can understand that but yeah, thats somehow really complicated to understand still...


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

VitaType said:


> I mean maybe it's a good thing that I don't understand how people can do something like that.


ohh yes, me neither. I don't get what makes them go boom, there is always an alternative to suicide or mass murder..


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## NFates (Aug 26, 2018)

There are filmings where you can see a laser on the guy with the red hoodie right before the camera goes out. 

Tragic, and now some people interested in eSports will back off and the community will receive backlash because of something one jackass did.


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## Vieela (Aug 26, 2018)

This is such a terrible thing to hear. It's sad to see more and more of these events happening everyday, especially because of how cold they are. My condolences to the families of the people who have passed away and i really hope the best to the ones who got injured.


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## Deleted User (Aug 26, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.


Mental healthcare is absolutely pisspoor and you can walk in and get guns with practical no check


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## ChaosEternal (Aug 26, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.


The statistics don't hold out for such a conclusion; it's safer than it's ever been. Violent crime has been dropping for decades on pretty much all fronts. Shootings like these, as tragic as they are, represent only a tiny blip on the radar in terms of overall violence. As for why they occur, I'm nowhere near qualified to even attempt to answer that. StarGazerTom's answer would be my best guess.


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## Deleted User (Aug 26, 2018)

Minor update: the dude who got shot while playing had his thumb hit. That could be the end of his pro-gaming career.


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## Justinde75 (Aug 26, 2018)

Can anybody tell me any pros of the Government allowing guns?


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## Deleted User (Aug 26, 2018)

Justinde75 said:


> Can anybody tell me any pros of the Government allowing guns?


Don't shill. Too soon. Like, waaaaaay too fucking soon. Let the barrel cool down atleast.


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## Justinde75 (Aug 26, 2018)

StarGazerTom said:


> Don't shill. Too soon. Like, waaaaaay too fucking soon. Let the barrel cool down atleast.


What does this have to do with shilling? Its a serious topic.


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## ItsKipz (Aug 26, 2018)

Any other first-world country would have tripled their gun control after one of these events, yet the US has hundreds of them a year with 0 change. When will we realize what needs to be done?



StarGazerTom said:


> Don't shill. Too soon. Like, waaaaaay too fucking soon. Let the barrel cool down atleast.


Is it also too soon to talk about the 9.5 THOUSAND other people killed by gun violence in the US this year alone? Or the 272 people injured in the last 3 DAYS? 232 mass shootings since January 1st, 2018. SOMETHING needs to be done.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 26, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> Any other first-world country would have tripled their gun control after one of these events, yet the US has hundreds of them a year with 0 change. When will we realize what needs to be done?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



You mean find a way to better our health mentally? It's never a sane person that does this, just saying. "Gun control" is only a part of the problem, and it's not even the worst part.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 26, 2018)

StarGazerTom said:


> Don't shill. Too soon. Like, waaaaaay too fucking soon. Let the barrel cool down atleast.


It seems like somehow it always is. That's a conversation that needs to be had if we don't want this to keep happening


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

ChaosEternal said:


> The statistics don't hold out for such a conclusion; it's safer than it's ever been. Violent crime has been dropping for decades on pretty much all fronts. Shootings like these, as tragic as they are, represent only a tiny blip on the radar in terms of overall violence. As for why they occur, I'm nowhere near qualified to even attempt to answer that. StarGazerTom's answer would be my best guess.



Well i don't live there, so all the info i get is from different news sources. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/us/violent-crime-murder-chicago-increase-.html
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...ime-increases-second-straight-year/699161001/

It could be yellow press that just want to sell newspapers, i couldn't know.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> It seems like somehow it always is. That's a conversation that needs to be had if we don't want this to keep happening



It's a conversation that's always had with no positive outcome. Whether it's "for" or "against", nothing happens.


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## ItsKipz (Aug 26, 2018)

Memoir said:


> You mean find a way to better our health mentally? It's never a sane person that does this, just saying. "Gun control" is only a part of the problem, and it's not even the worst part.


Every mass shooting has one thing in common - a gun. That's also the easiest one to fix. Make access to guns harder for people with mental health issues, implement basic background checks, implement mandatory waiting periods, and literally 90% of all violence in the USA is gone. The only people who oppose basic gun control are murderers.


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## Deleted User (Aug 26, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> Is it also too soon to talk about the 9.5 THOUSAND other people killed by gun violence in the US this year alone? Or the 272 people injured in the last 3 DAYS? 232 mass shootings since January 1st, 2018. SOMETHING needs to be done.


Not at all. I'm in the full belief somethinf does need to be done. My focus would be a hard-core push on increasing the requirements to purchase a gun, and for mental healthcare become top priority, country wide.

But, as a non-american, all i can do, as an outsider, is to watch in horror.


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## Aldoria (Aug 26, 2018)

that's disgusting


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 26, 2018)

StarGazerTom said:


> Not at all. I'm in the full belief somethinf does need to be done. My focus would be a hard-core push on increasing the requirements to purchase a gun, and for mental healthcare become top priority, country wide.
> 
> But, as a non-american, all i can do, as an outsider, is to watch in horror.


How do you think I feel as someone who lives in this forlorn country?


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## Justinde75 (Aug 26, 2018)

Memoir said:


> It's a conversation that's always had with no positive outcome. Whether it's "for" or "against", nothing happens.


It still doesnt make sense to allow guns in a soceity where everybody should feel safe. There is really no need for serious "self defense" like this.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 26, 2018)

Justinde75 said:


> It still doesnt make sense to allow guns in a soceity where everybody should feel safe. There is really no need for serious "self defense" like this.



There's no real reason as to why people just decide to shoot up a public event, but it happens.


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## ItsKipz (Aug 26, 2018)

StarGazerTom said:


> Not at all. I'm in the full belief somethinf does need to be done. My focus would be a hard-core push on increasing the requirements to purchase a gun, and for mental healthcare become top priority, country wide.
> 
> But, as a non-american, all i can do, as an outsider, is to watch in horror.


Basic background checks, mental healthcare efforts increased, mandatory waiting periods - the US government won't do any of these because they're funded by the murderers we call the NRA.


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## Justinde75 (Aug 26, 2018)

Memoir said:


> There's no real reason as to why people just decide to shoot up a public event, but it happens.


Going the "It just happens" way won't change anything.


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## ChaosEternal (Aug 26, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> Basic background checks, mental healthcare efforts increased, mandatory waiting periods - the US government won't do any of these because they're funded by the murderers we call the NRA.


All you're going to do is hurt your own cause if you use rhetoric like that. The NRA doesn't even spend that much money compared to quite a few other interest groups for that matter.


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## ItsKipz (Aug 26, 2018)

ChaosEternal said:


> All you're going to do is hurt your own cause if you use rhetoric like that. The NRA doesn't even spend that much money compared to quite a few other interest groups for that matter.


The NRA is the only reason basic gun control doesn't exist yet, let's not kid ourselves.


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

An insane person will find the way to arm himself with a weapon that can hurt people, even if they are illegal.
The question is what makes someone go to the extent to kill other people and why there is so much hate going on...  Of course is not a full representation of the US or their people...  But a lot of hate groups originate in the US and then try to spread all over the world.
Then we have to witness this insane events.


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## ChaosEternal (Aug 26, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> The NRA is the only reason basic gun control doesn't exist yet, let's not kid ourselves.


For a large part it does exist, it's just not utilized properly. If we even enforced the laws we had on-hand, we'd already by doing a whole lot better than we are now. Regardless, my argument wasn't that the NRA doesn't have influence on government policy, it's that they don't have outsize influence on government policy, at least through money. The problem isn't so much the funding, it's that a significant portion of the population either doesn't want or can't agree on gun control.


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## supergamer368 (Aug 26, 2018)

We really can't go two weeks without another shooting can we? And now let's watch, as the USA helps to control guns so they don't get into the wrong hands! Wait, no. They're not doing anything about it and they probably never will. That makes me feel so safe! Can't wait to go to school or even to the Burger King down the street knowing that there are dangerous people with guns who could easily attack! Back to the main focus, I send my condolences to the victims and their families, and rest in peace to those who did not survive.


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## Delerious (Aug 26, 2018)

Sad to see lives taken at an early age, and for others to be crippled, whether it be physically or mentally.



WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.



Violent crimes per 100,000 people have been on a downslope for the most part over the years. Apparently though, in the last few years, there has been some resurgence. Meanwhile, theft and drug-related crime have been relatively stagnant since 2004. All in all, the U.S. is really no more dangerous than most other countries, though some areas still have a reputation, much like how London seems to be developing a reputation for stabbings.



Justinde75 said:


> Can anybody tell me any pros of the Government allowing guns?


Power for the individual, mostly. Sadly, you have situations like these that keep popping up and only give guns a bad reputation, just like how bad dog owners give pit bulls a bad rep.


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## LightyKD (Aug 26, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> Any other first-world country would have tripled their gun control after one of these events, yet the US has hundreds of them a year with 0 change. When will we realize what needs to be done?
> 
> 
> Is it also too soon to talk about the 9.5 THOUSAND other people killed by gun violence in the US this year alone? Or the 272 people injured in the last 3 DAYS? 232 mass shootings since January 1st, 2018. SOMETHING needs to be done.



The U.S. stopped being a "first-world" country years ago. Just look at all the signs: mass surveillance, mass incarceration, income inequality, piss poor healthcare, horrible education system, fascism rearing it's ugly head and a "President" that wants desperately to be a dictator.


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## Zonark (Aug 26, 2018)

Ugh this sickens me hearing about this saddens me. I give my condolences to the victims and all effected by this horrific event. No longer are people afraid of jail there is no fear in which people only weigh the consequences only on getting locked up.


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## Wilthril (Aug 26, 2018)

That's really sad news. My condolences to the victims.


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## elm (Aug 26, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.




No, the World and most definitely the U.S. is not a safe place anymore, we live in sad times and morons that have to act like monsters for no apparent reasons. It really doesn’t help that we have the biggest most incompetent, ignorant, racist president that was ever elected, things are going to get a lot worse than better!


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## Deleted User (Aug 26, 2018)

I watched the video... stomach turning stuff. Fucking ruined my buzz. Hopefully it was just the one shooter and that they're dead.


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## VitaType (Aug 26, 2018)

Memoir said:


> It's a conversation that's always had with no positive outcome. Whether it's "for" or "against", nothing happens.


I don't follow the news about it to close, but the last thing they showed here on the news about that "guns/gun control in US"-topic was a massive gathering of people for more gun control. It was organized by the survivors of the Parkland shooting at the beginning of the year. I think it was called "March for our Lives" or such and even had demonstrations outside of the US. Did they really changed nothing at all?


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## Delerious (Aug 26, 2018)

LightyKD said:


> The U.S. stopped being a "first-world" country years ago. Just look at all the signs: mass surveillance, mass incarceration, income inequality, piss poor healthcare, horrible education system, fascism rearing it's ugly head and a "President" that wants desperately to be a dictator.



I personally blame Bush. He's the one that gave the U.S. most of that. For the Trump part, I think he's more of an idiot than anything. I don't jump the gun on calling people fascist until I see concrete evidence. From what I've seen, everyone still has the same social and economic rights they had under Obama, so obviously fascism isn't as big of a thing as people keep on claiming. And honestly, the current social/political climate is just causing more issues - people calling each other fascists when 80% of them don't really even know what a fascist is really goes to show how stupid citizens of the western world are making themselves out to be.


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## Jack Daniels (Aug 26, 2018)

first there's this problem, that as long as people keep sayin' there's evil, there will be shootouts. 
it's not there! 
it's a state of mind.
if you'll keep sayin' such bullshit you'll make demons around you, you're ignorant to a world around you.

there's multiple kinds of people for doing shootouts.

teens who got dumped or turned down, doesn't need any better explenation.
people who don't get enough sleep for a long period of time (so that barking dog in the appartment might actual being responsible).
people on meds that boost energy for extended time.
people who're forced in a lifestily like religious or sexual they can't cope (yes this applies to all religion).
someone who loses someone who's dear to him or her.
people who're unable to cope when seen or experienced violent acts.
people without reason to life for, you might think it will heal in time, but sad as it is, even with meds and help some will just not find a way out... there's two ways it could go depending on reason of depression: suicide or killing the rest.
a cult itself (a religous group that sepperates themselves completely) could lead to such things.
never being able to be good enough for one of your parents could be enough for a shootout.
wrong diagnosed psychic condition setting a person on wrong meds.
a tumor in the brain.
most of these people ar between 12 and 30 years old.
note that each time there's violence used there's a chance that there's a new monster created.
each time you'll give a gun or so to a non adult (or not fully grown in mind) this might mean you'll given the tools for the next shootout.
and no, there's no telling of a state of mind, nor is it possible to always give the treatment to a person in needs.
shootouts will be there, no matter what you do...

but please stop talkin' religious based crap about a situation you don't understand.
just keep it the way it is: you just can't see yourself in such a situation.

most killers didn't see themselves ever come in such a situation, it's just that they lost control.


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## qqq1 (Aug 26, 2018)

StarGazerTom said:


> Mental healthcare is absolutely pisspoor and you can walk in and get guns with practical no check


Yup, no check. Well except for the federal background check that is required. I'm guessing you've never bought a gun.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Justinde75 said:


> Can anybody tell me any pros of the Government allowing guns?


The original point of the government allowing guns was not for any benefit of the government. It was so the people would be able to keep the government in check from turning into the monarchy we had just broken away from. Sadly the people would be no match for the government these days.


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## Nomi20 (Aug 26, 2018)

I hate this world


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## mike a (Aug 26, 2018)

I live in Florida and will tell you all there are lots of crazies here, you've been warned


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## Jack Daniels (Aug 26, 2018)

Nomi20 said:


> I hate this world


that's allright mate!


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## Nomi20 (Aug 26, 2018)

Only the people that do this. It makes me feel as if I am not safe anywhere.


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## Zonark (Aug 26, 2018)

Legit I think it’s the tap water I mean We bury the dead the body’s flow into the tap water. It’s been proven that Cannibalism causes people to slowly go insane basically as more people are born more of this is a risk not to mention we try to control kids that are keep in mind kids being kids with medication Such as  Ritalin which is been proved to cause psychotic tendencies


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## TheMCNerd2017 (Aug 26, 2018)

Why are these shootings becoming more and more common each day? It's like there is some big secret organization setting up these shootings.


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## ItsKipz (Aug 26, 2018)

TheMCNerd2017 said:


> Why are these shootings becoming more and more common each day? It's like there is some big secret organization setting up these shootings.


Easy access to guns + a nation-wide mental health problem in the USA.


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## Zonark (Aug 26, 2018)

TheMCNerd2017 said:


> Why are these shootings becoming more and more common each day? It's like there is some big secret organization setting up these shootings.


It’s called pharmaceutical companies


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## Rob Blou (Aug 26, 2018)

I used to work at a video game store (the popular one) and we had a big fraud problem. Ppl used stolen credit card and used a technique to be able to slide the card instead of inserting it. That way they didn't need to know the nip of the stolen card to buy stuff. We were loosing thousands of dollars because of that .... I did really basic trouble shooting that looked like this:
-I can't prevent malicous ppl to get in our store.
-I can't know if a card is stolen or not
-I can't prevent other employees to fall for this trap
How can I stop this at the source to minimize the fraud problem as much as possible even when I'm not there?
I taped the slot were you slide the card on our machines. We usually only need to slide cards when we do a credit card refund so we only had to remove the tape when we had credit card fefund. After that, 0 credit card fraud.

So how can we minimize the mass shooting as much as possible by going as close as possible to the source? 
It Doesn't take a genius.


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## 8BitWonder (Aug 26, 2018)

Interesting how so many people suddenly become gun and gun safety experts right after these things happen.

My narcissism aside, it's tragic to hear some people lost their lives and were injured over such a trivial gathering.


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## bodefuceta (Aug 26, 2018)

It's time to blame the elephant in the room and do something about it. The common element in the overwhelming majority if not all of these ocurrences. The thing that NEEDS to be banned. Psychotropic drugs.


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

Rob Blou said:


> So how can we minimize the mass shooting as much as possible by going as close as possible to the source?
> It Doesn't take a genius.


The source is???
If you think the source are the firearms, that's not the source.
In Canada you can get weapons, want AR15? you can get one for little money. Check marstar.ca 
Yet you don't have that many shootouts in Canada do you?
In switzerland you can get weapons too, in fact in most of the countries of Europe you can get firearms. Yet there are not many shootouts.

I guess the problems is somwhere else, i don't know where, but not in the guns. Maybe the health care?


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## ItsKipz (Aug 26, 2018)

8BitWonder said:


> Interesting how so many people suddenly become gun and gun safety experts right after these things happen.
> 
> My narcissism aside, it's tragic to hear some people lost their lives and were injured over such a trivial gathering.


There's only one common thread between every mass shooting - easy access to guns.


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## DarthDub (Aug 26, 2018)

It's Florida. Lots of crazies over there. Seriously, just look up Florida Man on Google and you'll see what I mean. I would never go near there. May the people who died rest in peace..


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## Rob Blou (Aug 26, 2018)

bodefuceta said:


> It's time to blame the elephant in the room and do something about it. The common element in the overwhelming majority if not all of these ocurrences. The thing that NEEDS to be banned. Psychotropic drugs.


You forgot video games, movies and every thing else that we can blame instead of going at the source of what we can control .... it really saddens me and make me angry.


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## bodefuceta (Aug 26, 2018)

Rob Blou said:


> You forgot video games, movies and every thing else that we can blame instead of going at the source of what we can control .... it really saddens me and make me angry.


There's zero evidence for any of that, mate.


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

Rob Blou said:


> You forgot video games, movies and every thing else that we can blame instead of going at the source of what we can control .... it really saddens me and make me angry.


Again what's the source???


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## VitaType (Aug 26, 2018)

Rob Blou said:


> So how can we minimize the mass shooting as much as possible by going as close as possible to the source?


But how exactly will a change to debit cards prevent mass shootings? *scnr*


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## 8BitWonder (Aug 26, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> There's only one common thread between every mass shooting - easy access to guns.


You're kidding yourself if you think easy access to guns is the only common thread, there's also irrationality.

No rational person would commit a mass killing. With or without easy access to guns.


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## Aletron9000 (Aug 26, 2018)

It seems like every month there is another news story about a shooting. It's just getting worse.


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## bodefuceta (Aug 26, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> There's only one common thread between every mass shooting vehicle-rammings - easy access to guns cars and trucks.


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## Rob Blou (Aug 26, 2018)

WildDog said:


> The source is???
> If you think the source are the firearms, that's not the source.
> In Canada you can get weapons, want AR15? you can get one for little money. Check marstar.ca
> Yet you don't have that many shootouts in Canada do you?
> ...


I live in Canada and I looked at what is required to get any firearms in Canada ... It's way harder than in the states. It's not even comparable. But lets say you're right and there are just more crazy ppl in the US ... we can't prevent where crazy ppl go, we can't predict if someone will flipout and become crazy ect ect ... the only thing we can control that will massively reduce this problem in a short period of time is limiting firearm access. Yes education need to be improved but that's a solution that requires a lot of time and it's a must, but there's only 1 real short/medium term solution.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



bodefuceta said:


> There's zero evidence for any of that, mate.


It was sarcastic ...


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## bodefuceta (Aug 26, 2018)

Rob Blou said:


> I live in Canada and I looked at what is required to get any firearms in Canada ... It's way harder than in the states. It's not even comparable. But lets say you're right and there are just more crazy ppl in the US ... we can't prevent where crazy ppl go, we can't predict if someone will flipout and become crazy ect ect ... the only thing we can control that will massively reduce this problem in a short period of time is limiting firearm access. Yes education need to be improved but that's a solution that requires a lot of time and it's a must, but there's only 1 real short/medium term solution.


What about the people who have their lives protected by legal firearms? Does their lives not matter? They're not in the headlines after all. Yes a lot more are protected by them than killed, it's fact.


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## Priestiality (Aug 26, 2018)

All you dipshits talking about "too soon" should look at the history of mass shootings in this country and you'll see EVERY. FUCKING. TIME. there's some idiot talking about "It's too soon" "the bodies aren't even cold yet" and they repeat that until the next fucking shooting and then we reset the "too soon" timer once again. It's not too fucking soon, it's too fucking late.


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## Garro (Aug 26, 2018)

bodefuceta said:


> What about the people who have their lives protected by legal firearms? Does their lives not matter? They're not in the headlines after all. Yes a lot more are protected by them than killed, it's fact.


What about them? If they got their weapon legally, and if there was a decent background check before the acquisition of the gun, there's no issue.


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## bodefuceta (Aug 26, 2018)

Garro said:


> What about them? If they got their weapon legally, and if there was a decent background check before the acquisition of the gun, there's no issue.


This is correct logically. But when the same people who deems who is sane actually prescribes drugs that are responsible for incidents like this, it's a tough situation.


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## Rob Blou (Aug 26, 2018)

bodefuceta said:


> What about the people who have their lives protected by legal firearms? Does their lives not matter? They're not in the headlines after all. Yes a lot more are protected by them than killed, it's fact.


No it's not and I'm not talking about eliminating every single firearms, I'm talking about doing a through background check and maintaining a registry... just common sense. What's the main reason why someone will break into your house with a weapon? To steal your stuff ... what is more dangerous, pulling out a gun, or letting him take your stuff without threatening him, then call your insurance company and get brand new things? You're way more likely to get shot by pulling out a gun against a desperate man who also has one.


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## The Catboy (Aug 26, 2018)

It saddens me that mass shooting are a normal thing in the US, yet we continue to ignore cause of them. We continue to allow innocent people to be killed in droves because addressing the problems should also mean working on fixing those problems. Of we don't do that, we give the same song and dance, thoughts and prayers, and wait for the next mass shooting that media picks up.
Easy access to fire arms is part of the problem. Easy access to guns like an AR-15 are part of the problem. Poor quality background checks and lack of mental screening is a problem. Pretending any of these is a violation of the Second Amendment is a problem. The US has exclusive problems that every other devolved society had fixed years ago.


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## zeveroth (Aug 26, 2018)

Tragic news . 

This is just a few hours east of me. My son is going to the patriots game in a couple weeks .


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## ganons (Aug 26, 2018)

Why wasn't this announced immediately as a terrorist attack?


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## Captain_N (Aug 26, 2018)

I can just hear cnn and msnbc talking about banning guns. They never blame the person actually holding the gun do they? The libs that want gun control can give theirs up first. go ahead and set the example. The thieves will know who to steal from because they will know yall aint got no protection....


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## Rob Blou (Aug 26, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> I can just hear cnn and msnbc talking about banning guns. They never blame the person actually holding the gun do they? The libs that want gun control can give theirs up first. go ahead and set the example. The thieves will know who to steal from because they will know yall aint got no protection....


Well ...  I don't know what gun companies put in your water or what brainwash technique they use but it's working. It's not like you have hundreds of other countries to take as example and pull stats from hey?


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## LittleFlame (Aug 26, 2018)

Jesus christ the screaming at the end of that video


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## WildDog (Aug 26, 2018)

Rob Blou said:


> No it's not and I'm not talking about eliminating every single firearms, I'm talking about doing a through background check and maintaining a registry... just common sense. What's the main reason why someone will break into your house with a weapon? To steal your stuff ... what is more dangerous, pulling out a gun, or letting him take your stuff without threatening him, then call your insurance company and get brand new things? You're way more likely to get shot by pulling out a gun against a desperate man who also has one.


The issue with that, is that you don't know the intention of the theft.. He may just want to take your stuff and leave you, or he may want to hurt or kill as well.
I know you are from Canada, that's why i put  the marstar.ca example, but since i read your post that you are not against banning but making better background checks. I do agree with you on that.


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## The Catboy (Aug 26, 2018)

ganons said:


> Why wasn't this announced immediately as a terrorist attack?


Because it's easier to repeat the thoughts and prayers cycle if we avoid the issues.


----------



## ganons (Aug 26, 2018)

Don't want to sound insensitive but is the killer going to be made out as lone wolf or has mental illness?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 26, 2018)

ChaosEternal said:


> All you're going to do is hurt your own cause if you use rhetoric like that. The NRA doesn't even spend that much money compared to quite a few other interest groups for that matter.


The NRA is quite literally the reason that all US gun registration is done on paper; they managed to convince the Supreme Court (read: paid a shitton of money on lawyers) that a searchable digitized database was unconstitutional

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ganons said:


> Don't want to sound insensitive but is the killer going to be made out as lone wolf or has mental illness?


Depends on their race


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

I really hate when shootings like these happen because, as tragic as they are, they're immediately repurposed as ammunition for the anti-2nd Amendment crowd, even before the blood is dry and the bodies cold. Every single day I keep hearing that mass shootings are now part and parcel of American life when in reality violent crime across the board is at an all-time low. In fact, once you factor in that most "mass shootings" are inner city gang violence using illegal guns and not what the average person understands as a mass shooting, as in a maniac shooting random people, your likelihood of ever being in one becomes slightly higher than that of being hit by lightning. This thread is no different - it only took a handful of replies before the big question was asked. The actual question being posed is "what is the cost of freedom?", not "why do people need guns?" - self-preservation is a natural instinct and self-defense is an inalienable right, people must pursue it unrestricted if they are to be free. Tyranny is always preceeded by confiscation of arms as only an unarmed populace is docile. Americans are one of the few nations that still have their inalienable rights and I hope they retain them, as heartbreaking as this kind of news is. There will always be crazy, evil people out there, but law must be tailored to the majority, not the exceptions.


----------



## Whole lotta love (Aug 27, 2018)

Priestiality said:


> All you dipshits talking about "too soon" should look at the history of mass shootings in this country and you'll see EVERY. FUCKING. TIME. there's some idiot talking about "It's too soon" "the bodies aren't even cold yet" and they repeat that until the next fucking shooting and then we reset the "too soon" timer once again. It's not too fucking soon, it's too fucking late.



funny how it's never "too soon" if the shooter is black or brown.

RIP to the murdered, wishing a fast and full recovery to those injured.


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## GhostLatte (Aug 27, 2018)

Waiting for the media to spin this and blame video games as the issue rather than proper gun control.


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## 8BitWonder (Aug 27, 2018)

drazenm said:


> America the wacky. That country seriously needs to be nuked, flattened, exterminated, cleansed, left in nuclear winter for few centuries and naturally populated. That land is cursed, literally cursed, build on top of millions of corpses. Interesting fact that I've read the other day, statistics say that Americans killed 100 million, yes you've read it right, 100 MILLION! Native Americans, that's just 1 entity, where are others whose blood is on Americans hands? Figure is probably somewhere around Billion. So you asks yourselves why are you children turning into degenerates, mutants, freaks. No need to ask anymore.


Preaching for nuclear genocide is a pretty bold move on your part.
Especially considering that kind of thing is frowned upon pretty much globally.


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## XDel (Aug 27, 2018)

We've more shootings and killings now a days than in the old west before we started data basing, before the mass prison system, and most importantly before the mass media as it exists today.


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## J-Machine (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Because it's easier to repeat the thoughts and prayers cycle if we avoid the issues.


because this was a guy who lost in the tourney ergo not terrorism.



GhostLatte said:


> Waiting for the media to spin this and blame video games as the issue rather than proper gun control.


oddly enough video games are partly to blame because someone who hates loosing decided to join a game tournament.




XDel said:


> We've more shootings and killings now a days than in the old west before we started data basing, before the mass prison system, and most importantly before the mass media as it exists today.


the rates are much lower than they used to be. The problem is that the news prey on negative events that make us afraid or angry as it brings in more ratings. the spin and higher occurrences of these shootings being televised are purely greed from some sick people.


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## Rob Blou (Aug 27, 2018)

https://twitter.com/ChrisLutolf/status/1033805973138415616


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## zeveroth (Aug 27, 2018)

The sheriff said it was 3 fatalities including the 24 yr old who shot himself.  9 others shot 2 injured


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## Subtle Demise (Aug 27, 2018)

Justinde75 said:


> Can anybody tell me any pros of the Government allowing guns?


It was orignally in the constitution as a deterrent against tyranny, among other reasons. I think the government would like to end all gun ownership, but there are so many in circulation now that it wouldn't be feasible to get rid of them all.


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## kingfrost (Aug 27, 2018)

Yes the bad people re the people simply reporting what happens not the ones who push for fear tactics about gun control to sell more guns while making it easier, and easier to buy them legally. 

Its clear that both sides are politicizing a tragedy here but only one is acting like this sort of tragedy must be a fact of life .


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## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

J-Machine said:


> because this was a guy who lost in the tourney ergo not terrorism.


That is a terrible excuse for terrorism.


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## J-Machine (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That is a terrible excuse for terrorism.


terrorism means: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. this is not terrorism


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## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

J-Machine said:


> terrorism means: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. this is not terrorism


You got me there, there doesn't appear to be a political, religious, nor any motive beyond being a poor loser. At the same it does pose an argument for better mental screening. If this was a reaction from a poor loser, then it's obvious that he wasn't mentally sound from the start and shouldn't have been able to buy a gun on those grounds alone.


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## MaverickWellington (Aug 27, 2018)

I hope as many people as possible got out okay. This is depressing as shit to see.


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## Subtle Demise (Aug 27, 2018)

LightyKD said:


> The U.S. stopped being a "first-world" country years ago. Just look at all the signs: mass surveillance, mass incarceration, income inequality, piss poor healthcare, horrible education system, fascism rearing it's ugly head and a "President" that wants desperately to be a dictator.


If you think it's better anywhere else, what about the UK and having a CCTV camera on every street corner? What about making knives illegal? People get arrested for being mean on facebook for Christ's sake.

My point is, governments aroubd the world are perpetuating the police state and people are acting out. We live in a world where everyone is treated as a potential criminal, guilty until proven innocent. Police shoot first and ask questions later. People wonder why I think that government has no right to have a monopoly on violence.

If the person who did this had no access to a gun, they would have gotten creative and attacked with something far more sinister. Crude explosive devices and incendiaries like molotov cocktails are easy to make and rarely require any sort of controlled substance. The number of people you can kill with a gun is limited to how much ammunition you can carry. Potential kill counts of bombs and napalm are much higher. Even simple arson has the potential to kill an entire building plus even more if the fire spreads. 

People who commit these terrible acts are depraved and borderline subhuman. Don't underestimate the lengths they would go to in order to destroy as many lives as possible. The shooter at least had the decency to kill himself before he took any more lives. I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for the survivors and the families of the dead and hope that someday they'll be able to recover from the loss and horror.


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## orangy57 (Aug 27, 2018)

sweet jesus, that audio sent a chill down my spine.

Why do people do this shit? It feels like every day it seems more and more reasonable to ban guns in the US.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I really hate when shootings like these happen because, as tragic as they are, they're immediately repurposed as ammunition for the anti-2nd Ammendment crowd, even before the blood is dry and the bodies cold. Every single day I keep hearing that mass shootings are now part and parcel of American life when in reality they're at an all-time low. In fact, once you factor in that most "mass shootings" are inner city gang violence using illegal guns and not what the average person understands as a mass shooting, as in a maniac shooting random people, your likelihood of ever being in one becomes slightly higher than that of being shot by lightning. This thread is no different - it only took a handful of replies before the big question was asked. The actual question being posed is "what is the cost of freedom?", not "why do people need guns?" - self-preservation is a natural instinct and self-defense is an inalienable right, people must pursue it unrestricted if they are to be free. Tyranny is always preceeded by confiscation of arms as only an unarmed populace is docile. Americans are one of the few nations that still have their inalienable rights and I hope they retain them, as heartbreaking as this kind of news is. There will always be crazy, evil people out there, but law must be tailored to the majority, not the exceptions.


So when is ok to talk about gun control? It's always "too soon," then another one happens, then it's "too soon" again. These issues that only exist in the US won't fix themselves if we keep saying that "it's too soon."
Gun regulations do not violate the Second Amendment. The 2ND protects people from full gun bans and from the government coming to your house and taking your guns. It does not mean that there can't be a bans on the sale of select guns, it does mean that there can't be deeper background checks, it does mean freedom from regulation. Our system is the problem and there needs to be something done, something that apparently the rest of the world has already figured out.


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## Priestiality (Aug 27, 2018)

Whole lotta love said:


> funny how it's never "too soon" if the shooter is black or brown.
> 
> RIP to the murdered, wishing a fast and full recovery to those injured.


Within minutes of it happening the #MAGAt side of Twitter was trying to claim it was a black dude upset he lost before any information had even come out.


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## MrCokeacola (Aug 27, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> Waiting for the media to spin this and blame video games as the issue rather than proper gun control.


Video games are to blame though...


----------



## Bungee_Cord (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.


America is a sh*tshow in general. If i were a foreigner i'd never move here.


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## XDel (Aug 27, 2018)

J-Machine said:


> because this was a guy who lost in the tourney ergo not terrorism.
> 
> 
> oddly enough video games are partly to blame because someone who hates loosing decided to join a game tournament.
> ...



Oh, I don't doubt that they misuse Operation Mockingbird, despite Wiki claiming it was an alleged program. 
Before Youtube took me down, I was sharing a clip I'd downloaded from CNN's Web Stream where in George Bush Jr. openly stated during a press meeting, that they (who ever they is) create and use false media, but said that there are laws and guidelines that they have to follow and insisted that they do. 

I was shocked because before that moment, I'd never see anyone within government openly admit to Operation Mockingbird's existence, not to mention openly admitting that such methods are used. 
In this case, Bush said that they were legalized, in case the media did not have the footage they needed to get the effect they were trying to invoke from the public. So in short, what the laws of Operation Mockingbird (legalized in the 70's though I forget the exact date), allow, is for a re-enactment to be aired as the real thing, so long as the re-enactment does not attempt to distort the truth of what really happened in any way. 

I of course have seen no reason to believe that these guidelines are followed, nor do I believe that everything we are presented really happened, or at the very least, happened as they are said to have happened. I could list a few examples, but then I'd be written off as a tinfoil hat wearing lunatic, as opposed to someone who studied as if trying to present a case before a judge in a court of law. 

That being said, the wars across the world, and not just the ones America has been involved in, have taken more life than through out recorded history. Likewise, as the 20th century went on, violent crime has begun to increase. The irony is that data basing, social security, the mass prison system, and so forth, were put into place during a time when violent crime was still relatively low. Though thanks to the betrayal to the American people during the course of World War I and World War II, violence and resistance against the newly found Empire did begin to increase, and once the media mastered the art of turning us upon one another, it increased even more. And so it is my belief that Data Basing, Prison Building, and Personal ID, and so forth; these blatant breachs of the Fourth and Fifth Amendments if not others, were done in preparation for the New World agenda which they knew there would be much resistance against. 

Human's can be shady little monsters, but we'd be a lot less shady without the new propaganda technologies that enchant us so.


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## Soulsilve2010 (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.


Because of how this country treats mental health,guns aren't the issue.People not getting the help they need is.


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## aaronz77 (Aug 27, 2018)

My parents retired and moved to Jacksonville, FL a few years ago. I knew they went downtown almost every Sunday for lunch. Kind of a tense few minutes for me trying to get in touch with them earlier today. My dad said they were watching the news coverage on TV, from home thank goodness. I just don't understand the hatred everyone has for everyone else in this world. wtf..


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## Cha0tic (Aug 27, 2018)

God damn and I almost moved to jacksonville, honestly I will never understand why people do this and they may sound messed up but instead of taking others lives for no reason just put the gun to your head and end yourself instead of ending peoples lives who have done nothing to deserve a fate.

I'd rather them get help then end their own life but sometimes seeing this gets me so heated and upset, no one deserves to have their life taken.


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## Coto (Aug 27, 2018)

You must be a very lowlife to take away lives on an event where young people play videogames. Dunno what was the problem with the killer. But I do hope the USA takes 0 tolerance and provides better security at crowded events from now on.


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## Chary (Aug 27, 2018)

Coto said:


> provides better security at crowded events from now on.


EVO already has officially stated that their next competition will have beefed up security, so it looks like lots of people are on edge, and rightfully so. I'm sure others will follow suit.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Priestiality said:


> Within minutes of it happening the #MAGAt side of Twitter was trying to claim it was a black dude upset he lost before any information had even come out.


Here in my neck of the woods there was a teenaged girl that was kidnapped earlier in the summer who was unfortunately very recently found dead. The right-wing news outlets immediately published spin stories about how her suspected murderer was in the country illegally. Guess what isn't the case.


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## Sicsuicide (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.


It's not an everyday thing in the us.
I actually live in FL and shooting or the likes of this is rare.
Now over all violence not so rare


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## Limp-Bones (Aug 27, 2018)

My opinion is civilians don't need an assault rifle or some kind of automatic weapons to defend themselves. People change. One moment the person is normal then something happens to they're lives and he/she goes nuts and starts shootin. Too much freedom isn't a good thing nowadays... maybe 10-20 years ago yeah but now its fairly exploitable to do nasty deeds...


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## Glyptofane (Aug 27, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> It's Florida. Lots of crazies over there. Seriously, just look up Florida Man on Google and you'll see what I mean. I would never go near there. May the people who died rest in peace..


I have to go to Florida for a work trip in November... Man, I have never wanted to go there and still don't.


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## Sicsuicide (Aug 27, 2018)

CT-4169 said:


> My opinion is civilians don't need an assault rifle or some kind of automatic weapons to defend themselves. People change. One moment the person is normal then something happens to they're lives and he/she goes nuts and starts shootin. Too much freedom isn't a good thing nowadays... maybe 10-20 years ago yeah but now its fairly exploitable to do nasty deeds...



Automatic weapons aren't for sale to anyone in the civilian class 
Cops and Military have access to those 
Any automatic weapons on the street are ill gotten goods.


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## LightyKD (Aug 27, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> If you think it's better anywhere else, what about the UK and having a CCTV camera on every street corner? What about making knives illegal? People get arrested for being mean on facebook for Christ's sake.
> 
> My point is, governments aroubd the world are perpetuating the police state and people are acting out. We live in a world where everyone is treated as a potential criminal, guilty until proven innocent. Police shoot first and ask questions later. People wonder why I think that government has no right to have a monopoly on violence.
> 
> ...



I actually agree with you. It's part of the reason why I'm not 100% anti gun. I'm all for good government but we simply don't have good government any more except for a few places. People need a way to fight against the police-state and if the "government" in power has all of the weapons then you can consider all of us toast. I believe there should be better background checks and maybe a little bit more in restrictions but to completely ban guns or weapons in general, that's just silly. I think a major issue is that people aren't able to just "fight it out". What the fuck ever happened to letting two people fight, one person wins and the both get to walk away alive?! We're humans, we will always have some form of aggression. It's all about how we use that aggression and not taking it too far. People just gave up on having a bit of edge and went all submissive to the 1%.


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## Glyptofane (Aug 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Depends on their race


David Katz, Jewish. The term "white" has already been scrubbed from the headline on Daily Mail.


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## snails1221 (Aug 27, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> I have to go to Florida for a work trip in November... Man, I have never wanted to go there and still don't.


I visit family in Florida twice a year and it's not scary whatsoever. I guess it just depends on what part you're in.


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## spotanjo3 (Aug 27, 2018)

Not surprised. You gotta expect it. More murdering is continue to come all the time. It is not getting better at all. Gun banned wont work. Gun blackmarket are everywhere and its the problem. Nothing we can do about it. Very sad, indeed.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

@Chary maybe you can tell me what's going on
But when I did research about this shooting this afternoon, I saw some report of shooting dating from august 25th
it was for a same event and at same place
It was reported one dead and 2 wounded iirc


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> David Katz, Jewish. The term "white" has already been scrubbed from the headline on Daily Mail.


Jesus Christ just leave

And where on Earth are you seeing either of those things


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## Limp-Bones (Aug 27, 2018)

Seems like we all need some meteor to solve our problems and just start over again lol


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## SonowRaevius (Aug 27, 2018)

My thoughts on this 

"Oh, another one" and then I continue on with life. 

I doesn't mean that I don't empathize with those that lost someone they love today, but when you hear about another shooting every week you sort of start to at least become numb to the news of them a bit and that is probably the saddest thing about the whole ordeal.


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## Limp-Bones (Aug 27, 2018)

SonowRaevius said:


> My thoughts on this
> 
> "Oh, another one" and then I continue on with life.
> 
> I doesn't mean that I don't empathize with those that lost someone they love today, but when you hear about another shooting every week you sort of start to at least become numb to the news of them a bit and that is probably the saddest thing about the whole ordeal.


Yeah I know what you mean.. It's like every time I turn on the TV its like this...


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## snails1221 (Aug 27, 2018)

SonowRaevius said:


> My thoughts on this
> 
> "Oh, another one" and then I continue on with life.
> 
> I doesn't mean that I don't empathize with those that lost someone they love today, but when you hear about another shooting every week you sort of start to at least become numb to the news of them a bit and that is probably the saddest thing about the whole ordeal.


As sad as it is to say, this tbh


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

SonowRaevius said:


> My thoughts on this
> 
> "Oh, another one" and then I continue on with life.
> 
> I doesn't mean that I don't empathize with those that lost someone they love today, but when you hear about another shooting every week you sort of start to at least become numb to the news of them a bit and that is probably the saddest thing about the whole ordeal.


I totally understand how you feel
When you start thinking there are more shooting in usa than in middle-eastern


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## Glyptofane (Aug 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Jesus Christ just leave
> 
> And where on Earth are you seeing either of those things


What are you talking about? I already said it was from Daily Mail and you are the one who mentioned race. I saw the headline hours ago when they were framing it as a "white" shooter and the surname Katz is not of mysterious origin. Everyone knows this.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

when you feel bad for those arabian in Iraq who die in shooting but no longer give a fuck about american dying in shooting


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## spotanjo3 (Aug 27, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> I have to go to Florida for a work trip in November... Man, I have never wanted to go there and still don't.



I lived in Florida for 9 years. Saw the news for 9 years everyday shooting everywhere in Florida. I am glad that I moved back to somewhere last October. No more Florida for me for a several reasons. The gun is not the reason that I left, mind you.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> So when is ok to talk about gun control? It's always "too soon," then another one happens, then it's "too soon" again. These issues that only exist in the US won't fix themselves if we keep saying that "it's too soon."
> Gun regulations do not violate the Second Amendment. The 2ND protects people from full gun bans and from the government coming to your house and taking your guns. It does not mean that there can't be a bans on the sale of select guns, it does mean that there can't be deeper background checks, it does mean freedom from regulation. Our system is the problem and there needs to be something done, something that apparently the rest of the world has already figured out.


To what end? There are approximately 300 million guns in private hands in America that are not being used in a mass shooting. More than one-third of the population is armed. Why are you so eager to infringe upon their right to bear arms? Because of the occasional psychopath? I don't buy it. "Certain guns" are already restricted in America, what exactly do you want to restrict? "Assault weapons"? Meaning what? It's curious that cities with the strictest gun laws like Chicago have the highest "mass shooting" rates, it's almost as if it wasn't the guns that were the problem but poverty, crime and mental illness. I see no reason why a law-abiding citizen healthy in mind and body shouldn't be armed, and as far as I'm concerned every single willing adult should at least be familiar with firearms. Shall not be infringed, that is all. It's not really up to debate or discussion - freedom is always one generation away from extinction.


----------



## frankGT (Aug 27, 2018)

Fkin mericans and they'r fkin guns.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> What are you talking about? I already said it was from Daily Mail and you are the one who mentioned race. I saw the headline hours ago when they were framing it as a "white" shooter and the surname Katz is not of mysterious origin. Everyone knows this.


I didn't see Daily Mail, I'm not sure if it was my eyes decieving me or if you revised your post, but I saw "from all the headlines." And yeah. "Katz" is a conjugated form of "Katzen" in German, which means "cat."

And to address me bringing up race: I was making a dark and somber joke about reality, and one that I believe the person I quoted was also making. If the shooter is brown, he's "a lone wolf terrorist" and "most likely illegal." If he's white, he's "mentally ill." And, as you have proved with all the grace of walking face-first into a pole: if neo-nazis think he's Jewish, then he can't be white and is by definition Satan incarnate

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Foxi4 said:


> Why are you so eager to infringe upon their right to bear arms? Because of the occasional psychopath? I don't buy it.


Wait, hold on... Do you think that there's some sort of boogyman conspiracy that anti-gun liberals are all in on, rather than just wanting to reduce a rather significant fatality rate?...


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## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> To what end? There are approximately 300 million guns in private hands in America that are not being used in a mass shooting. More than one-third of the population is armed. Why are you so eager to infringe upon their right to bear arms? Because of the occasional psychopath? I don't buy it. "Certain guns" are already restricted in America, what exactly do you want to restrict? "Assault weapons"? Meaning what? It's curious that cities with the strictest gun laws like Chicago have the highest "mass shooting" rates, it's almost as if it wasn't the guns that were the problem but poverty, crime and mental illness. I see no reason why a law-abiding citizen healthy in mind and body shouldn't be armed, and as far as I'm concerned every single willing adult should at least be familiar with firearms. Shall not be infringed, that is all. It's not really up to debate or discussion - freedom is always one generation away from extinction.


I didn't suggest taking anyone's guns away nor did I suggest any of that. I stated that banning the sale of some guns isn't a violation of the 2nd, that doesn't mean taking people's guns. I suggested that better testing could help filter out people who are mentally unstable, which isn't a violation of the 2ND. If someone is a perfectly healthy and of sound mind, then these regulations only mildly inconvenience them.


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## weatMod (Aug 27, 2018)

still not the worst thing EA is responsible for


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## bitjacker (Aug 27, 2018)

why not require people to carry guns? I know if i was in a place getting shot at, and if i had a gun, I would gladly shoot the active shooter in the noggin. I sure as hell dont want to live in fear.


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## weatMod (Aug 27, 2018)

>Florida


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Sicsuicide said:


> Automatic weapons aren't for sale to anyone in the civilian class
> Cops and Military have access to those
> Any automatic weapons on the street are ill gotten goods.


This fact alone is just confusing to me. If the government was interested in saving lives, you would think they'd restrict access to weapons that statistically cause the most deaths, meaning handguns. Rifles are not the weapon of choice for mass shooters, automatic or semi-automatic - the most commonly used weapon in such instances is a handgun, provided we accept the current ludicrous definition of a mass shooting, which I obviously don't.


Lilith Valentine said:


> I didn't suggest taking anyone's guns away nor did I suggest any of that. I stated that banning the sale of some guns isn't a violation of the 2nd, that doesn't mean taking people's guns. I suggested that better testing could help filter out people who are mentally unstable, which isn't a violation of the 2ND. If someone is a perfectly healthy and of sound mind, then these regulations only mildly inconvenience them.


That's always the excuse. Tell me one thing, if the proponents of gun regulation are so interested in reducing the death toll, why are they racing to ban "assault weapons", which is a trumped-up term they invented as no actual assault rifles can be legally sold to citizens in the United States as there's a blanket ban on automatics across the land? Semi-automatic rifles are not particularly deadly if you look at the data - they're used in the great minority of crimes, the most common weapon of choice is the handgun due to its portability and ease of concealment. Why are they sounding the alarm about the AR-15? Because looking at the numbers, all I can think of is "it looks kinda scary", which isn't an argument. All I keep hearing about is "we need to change the gun laws", but I'm not hearing any concrete solutions. You want to talk, let's talk then - what do you propose? How would you solve this conundrum? As far as I'm concerned, guns aren't even the issue - as I mentioned before, it's poverty, crime and mental health. There doesn't seem to be any discernable correlation between how strict or lax the regulations are and how likely it is that a mass shooting will occur in a given state, so there necessarily must be a different solution, but what? Anything short of mass confiscation would be ineffective, and mass confiscation is unacceptable and unpalatable to freedom, so what would you like to do?


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## Priestiality (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> To what end? There are approximately 300 million guns in private hands in America that are not being used in a mass shooting. More than one-third of the population is armed. Why are you so eager to infringe upon their right to bear arms? Because of the occasional psychopath? I don't buy it. "Certain guns" are already restricted in America, what exactly do you want to restrict? "Assault weapons"? Meaning what? It's curious that cities with the strictest gun laws like Chicago have the highest "mass shooting" rates, it's almost as if it wasn't the guns that were the problem but poverty, crime and mental illness. I see no reason why a law-abiding citizen healthy in mind and body shouldn't be armed, and as far as I'm concerned every single willing adult should at least be familiar with firearms. Shall not be infringed, that is all. It's not really up to debate or discussion - freedom is always one generation away from extinction.


Why are you so eager to focus on "shall not be infringed" while ignoring "well-regulated militia"?


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## SonowRaevius (Aug 27, 2018)

bitjacker said:


> why not require people to carry guns? I know if i was in a place getting shot at, and if i had a gun, I would gladly shoot the active shooter in the noggin. I sure as hell dont want to live in fear.


Just because people can open carry and even have their weapons on them at the time doesn't mean that the shooter will be shot or even caught, especially if you do so in a crowded area with lot of people.

Even if they do start opening fire on the suspect what about bystanders?
What about someone who isn't fully trained with their firearms?

Arming people could quite potentially turn a bad situation into a worse one easily, especially among the chaos of a situation like that. 

I am not saying that responsible people should have their guns or their right to own guns taken away, but something does actually need to be done about the issues we are seeing with gun violence in the US.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

bitjacker said:


> why not require people to carry guns? I know if i was in a place getting shot at, and if i had a gun, I would gladly shoot the active shooter in the noggin. I sure as hell dont want to live in fear.


Then, police comes in the room, sees you shooting someone, then they shoot you


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## bitjacker (Aug 27, 2018)

There would be a 15 minute window.


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## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> This fact alone is just confusing to me. If the government was interested in saving lives, you would think they'd restrict access to weapons that statistically cause the most deaths, meaning handguns. Rifles are not the weapon of choice for mass shooters, automatic or semi-automatic - the most commonly used weapon in such instances is a handgun, provided we accept the current ludicrous definition of a mass shooting, which I obviously don't.
> That's always the excuse. Tell me one thing, if the proponents of gun regulation are so interested in reducing the death toll, why are they racing to ban "assault weapons", which is a trumped-up term they invented as no actual assault rifles can be legally sold to citizens in the United States as there's a blanket ban on automatics across the land? Semi-automatic rifles are not particularly deadly if you look at the data - they're used in the great minority of crimes, the most common weapon of choice is the handgun due to its portability and ease of concealment. Why are they sounding the alarm about the AR-15? Because looking at the numbers, all I can think of is "it looks kinda scary", which isn't an argument. All I keep hearing about is "we need to change the gun laws", but I'm not hearing any concrete solutions. You want to talk, let's talk then - what do you propose? How would you solve this conundrum? As far as I'm concerned, guns aren't even the issue - as I mentioned before, it's poverty, crime and mental health. There doesn't seem to be any discernable correlation between how strict or lax the regulations are and how likely it is that a mass shooting will occur in a given state, so there necessarily must be a different solution, but what? Anything short of mass confiscation would be ineffective, and mass confiscation is unacceptable and unpalatable to freedom, so what would you like to do?


I purpose we get on the same level as the rest of the world. It's suspicious that mental health issues exist in the rest of the world, same with poverty. Yet you don't hear about this shit happening anywhere else. This is exclusively an issue in the US.


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Aug 27, 2018)

Been reading news on Bing which are random but a lot end up on being about articles of shootings. Banning guns wouldn't really do any good because if anyone wants a gun, he/she can buy it illegally, anyway.

Shootings in Chicago happen a lot from what I've read but no one seems to care.

UK can't ban knives because it's a kitchen utility otherwise they'd try.

Don't forget cars too which can be used as a weapon but is it going to get banned? Nope.

If guns do get banned, it's to strip citizens of their right for self-protection.

Anything can be a weapon, when you think about it, anyhow.

RIP.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I purpose we get on the same level as the rest of the world. It's suspicious that mental health issues exist in the rest of the world, same with poverty. Yet you don't hear about this shit happening anywhere else. This is exclusively an issue in the US.


Actually, it happens everyday in middle eastern
Its just that we care less about it happening in usa lol


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## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> Actually, it happens everyday in middle eastern
> Its just that we care less about it happening in usa lol


Having to compare the US to war-torn nations is just sad


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Having to compare the US to war-torn nations is just sad


Its sad to say, but wwiii is here
Its just that the ennemies arent country but terrorist
Terrorists and their followers


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## Priestiality (Aug 27, 2018)

SonowRaevius said:


> Just because people can open carry and even have their weapons on them at the time doesn't mean that the shooter will be shot or even caught, especially if you do so in a crowded area with lot of people.
> 
> Even if they do start opening fire on the suspect what about bystanders?
> What about someone who isn't fully trained with their firearms?
> ...


Cops have already said arming teachers is a dumb idea because a cop isn't going to stop and question the person holding a gun in an active school shooting situation, they're going to shoot that person unless they immediately drop the gun and lay on the ground before the cop gets a bead on them.


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## RealLatias (Aug 27, 2018)

Sad News to see this coming to my community, I send best of wishes to all those involved. I live in Jacksonville, FL.


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## SirNapkin1334 (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.


Because trump doesn’t give a shit about gun laws. How many shootings are there a year in Germany? It’s a place I’m looking to escape to.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 27, 2018)

bitjacker said:


> why not require people to carry guns? I know if i was in a place getting shot at, and if i had a gun, I would gladly shoot the active shooter in the noggin. I sure as hell dont want to live in fear.


I want you to think REALLY hard about what happens in a crowd panic mentality where multiple people (God forbid EVERYONE) have a handgun

Person A draws their weapon and fires
Person B immediately draws their weapon in response with the noble intention of neutralizing Person A
Persons C on, who may not have known where the initial shot came from, draw their weapons and aim them at the nearest person who had their gun up before them and is shooting

See how this might get problematic very quickly?...


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I want you to think REALLY hard about what happens in a crowd panic mentality where multiple people (God forbid EVERYONE) have a handgun
> 
> Person A draws their weapon and fires
> Person B immediately draws their weapon in response with the noble intention of neutralizing Person A
> ...


This


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Priestiality said:


> Why are you so eager to focus on "shall not be infringed" while ignoring "well-regulated militia"?


Because I'm an English major and I know how the grammatical structure of the Second Amendment works. The construction used, although archaic by modern standards, is important for the preservation of its actual meaning.

The Second Amendment is composed of two clauses which are not of equal weight - one is subordinate to the other. If you were to re-create it in a more modern form, the spirit of the writing is quite clear. A "well-regulated militia" is an organised group of armed citizens and its existence is "necessary for the security of a free state". As such, the "right of the people" to "keep and bear arms" shall "not be infringed" as doing otherwise would *prevent* "the people" from forming militias in the first place. The right to bear arms is granted de facto.

The first part of the Second Amendment is a nominative absolute - "the right [...] to bear arms [...] shall not be infringed" and "here's why" is how you should think about it. This interpretation is supported by contemporary writing, most notably the Federalist Papers, particularly Federalist no. 46 by Madison:



> Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.


Here we learn that "the American people" are an armed populace, which is an advantage compared to other nations, and it is of utmost importance that they remain armed to ensure that the government remains subordinate to the people. Of those armed people some, not all, can be appointed to militias, and if you read the full paper you'll also learn that the militias were meant to be of considerable size in order to stand a chance should the federal government become tyrannical. You don't have to be a scribe to understand that this was the intent all along and that's the actual meaning of the Amendment. There is no *other* interpretation of the Second Amendment, there's only lack of understanding or gaps in knowledge that people fill in with imaginary intentions that are not in the document at all.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Because I'm an English major and I know how the grammatical structure of the Second Ammendment works. The construction used, although archaic by modern standards, is important for the preservation of its actual meaning.
> 
> The Second Ammendment is composed of two clauses which are not of equal weight - one is subordinate to the other. If you were to re-create it in a more modern form, the spirit of the writing is quite clear. A "well-regulated militia" is an organised group of armed citizens and its existence is "necessary for the security of a free state". As such, the "right of the people" to "keep and bear arms" shall "not be infringed" as doing otherwise would *prevent* "the people" from forming militias in the first place. The right to bear arms is granted de facto.
> 
> ...


Well, maybe you could tell me the purpose of a well armed militia?
I mean, what do they do exactly?
What, when, how?


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I purpose we get on the same level as the rest of the world. It's suspicious that mental health issues exist in the rest of the world, same with poverty. Yet you don't hear about this shit happening anywhere else. This is exclusively an issue in the US.


I'm not saying that the fact that people get shot is not in part because they have access to guns - it is. Without guns there would be no shootings, without cars there would be no road accidents, what of it? The problem here is the black market which will never wholly be eliminated and the cost in freedom which in my estimation is just too great to bear. By saying that the United States should "get on the same level with the rest of the world" you're effectively advocating for a blanket ban on firearms, which I knew was your intention from the start and which you vehemently denied. All I wanted was for you to admit that and say it out loud instead of pulling wool over people's eyes as if that wasn't at all what you meant and that you had a magical law that wouldn't ostensibly limit their freedom. It's the lying that I don't like, not your sentiment - we can't have a discussion if you plan on being dishonest or refuse to acknowledge what you actually want.



Noctosphere said:


> Well, maybe you could tell me the purpose of a well armed militia?
> I mean, what do they do exactly?
> What, when, how?


Ideally they don't do anything at all if they don't have to. They exist as one of many cogs in the checks and balances system. More specifically they're an ace in the sleeve against the very real possibility of a rise of a tyrannical government.


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## aerios169 (Aug 27, 2018)

damn guys, i am so sorry =/ ... donald Trump talks trash about Mexico but  if you dont do any bad things you are akind oF safe menwhile in USA someone gets creazy and kill you


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## Delerious (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I purpose we get on the same level as the rest of the world. It's suspicious that mental health issues exist in the rest of the world, same with poverty. Yet you don't hear about this shit happening anywhere else. This is exclusively an issue in the US.



No, you just have people stabbing each other at random in the UK. Hence why they banned knives over there, and guess what... people are still stabbing each other over there.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

Maybe someone can tell me why they sell fully automitic weapon to public?
Because obviously, it isnt the problem here
When you know that a 10 years old girl killed her instructor with a uzi when she was in a shooting stand


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> Maybe someone can tell me why they sell fully automitic weapon to public?
> Because obviously, it isnt the problem here
> When you know that a 10 years old girl killed her instructor with a uzi when she was in a shooting stand


I will PayPal you the full price of the weapon plus $100 if you purchase a fully automatic weapon in the United States. It's literally illegal to sell automatics in the states. The only entities allowed to own them are the police and the military, private citizens must have a permit from the ATF in order to own them, let alone purchase them, so good luck. What you're not accounting for is that criminals and crazy people don't follow the law, so any form of excessive regulation only affects law-abiding citizens.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Sad to hear.  Unfortunately it seems like, in a twisted sort of way, a guy shooting up a gaming tournament because he lost a match of Madden is peak America now.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I will PayPal you the full price of the weapon plus $100 if you purchase a fully automatic weapon in the United States. It's literally illegal to sell automatics in the states. What you're not accounting for is that criminals and crazy people don't follow the law, so any form of excessive regulation only affects law-abiding citizens.


Seriously? I though there was gun and bullet store where they were selling automatic weapons in usa


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## Delerious (Aug 27, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> Maybe someone can tell me why they sell fully automitic weapon to public?
> Because obviously, it isnt the problem here
> When you know that a 10 years old girl killed her instructor with a uzi when she was in a shooting stand



While it's not illegal, it's very difficult to do. Especially since you're likely to spend over 10k USD just to get one. Also, some state have banned automatic weapons completely. So unless you know the right people, you're not likely going to be able to get a fully automatic weapons very easily, and good luck getting any ammo, as well.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> Seriously? I though there was gun and bullet store where they were selling automatic weapons in usa


There are none. All automatics are heavily scrutinised by the ATF and only a highly select few can own them. Usually they need a pretty good reason to own them as well. You can't just walk into a store and buy a weapon, automatic or not, the process is much more complicated than Hollywood would have you believe.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> There are none. All automatics are heavily scrutinised by the ATF and only a highly select few can own them. Usually they need a pretty good reason to own them as well. You can't just walk into a store and buy a weapon, automatic or not, the process is much more complicated than Hollywood would have you believe.


Then maybe you can explain me 3d printer?


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## chrisrlink (Aug 27, 2018)

Jack Daniels said:


> first there's this problem, that as long as people keep sayin' there's evil, there will be shootouts.
> it's not there!
> it's a state of mind.
> if you'll keep sayin' such bullshit you'll make demons around you, you're ignorant to a world around you.
> ...



don't forget of political convictions (because trump is in power some people think it's ok to mass murder muslims or mexicans)


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## bitjacker (Aug 27, 2018)

The nature of war has changed.


TotalInsanity4 said:


> I want you to think REALLY hard about what happens in a crowd panic mentality where multiple people (God forbid EVERYONE) have a handgun
> 
> Person A draws their weapon and fires
> Person B immediately draws their weapon in response with the noble intention of neutralizing Person A
> ...


That could be the outcome. I guess if im in close enough proximity to some crazy shit I would like to be able to defend my life.


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## chrisrlink (Aug 27, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> Then maybe you can explain me 3d printer?


btw why is it legal to 3d print a gun now? suicide by cop is going to spike over this


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Delerious said:


> While it's not illegal, it's very difficult to do. Especially since you're likely to spend over 10k USD just to get one. Also, some state have banned automatic weapons completely. So unless you know the right people, you're not likely going to be able to get a fully automatic weapons very easily, and good luck getting any ammo, as well.


Let's be more specific here. In order to own a fully automatic weapon in the United States, it has to be registered with the ATF which holds a registry for all fully automatic weapons. This registry was closed in 1986, which effectively means that no weapon made after 1986 can be registered. Those that are in private hands can be resold at ridiculous prices to collectors provided they pay for a tax stamp from the ATF and complete a rigorous background check. The possession of each automatic is tracked, there's virtually no way to purchase one unless your pockets are incredibly deep and those that are sold are all antiques by any statistical measure. You're not going to buy one in a mall, you're likely not going to buy one if you tried, and claiming otherwise is plain fearmongering.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> There are none. All automatics are heavily scrutinised by the ATF and only a highly select few can own them. Usually they need a pretty good reason to own them as well. You can't just walk into a store and buy a weapon, automatic or not, the process is much more complicated than Hollywood would have you believe.


It really isn't complicated at all.  To buy a weapon you initial a few things and wait thirty minutes to an hour.  Afterward, converting to a fully automatic simply requires the purchase of a bump stock, which is still legal in all but seven states.

Hell, these days you can bypass the purchase altogether and just 3D print an untraceable gun with any firing mode you prefer.


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## MrCokeacola (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> There are none. All automatics are heavily scrutinised by the ATF and only a highly select few can own them. Usually they need a pretty good reason to own them as well. You can't just walk into a store and buy a weapon, automatic or not, the process is much more complicated than Hollywood would have you believe.


So the 1000s of gun reviewers on youtube all had to got though a huge complicated processes to get their guns. Neat.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> Then maybe you can explain me 3d printer?


3D printed guns can't go through 30 rounds without shattering, let alone sustaining automatic fire. You can make illegal modifications to make existing weapons automatic or you could machine certain parts from metal if you wanted to, but the "illegal" part is the important one here. On the subject of 3D prints, they basically invalidate any gun control measures as-is and I don't see how they won't cause a revolution in how we think about guns in the long term.


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## chrisrlink (Aug 27, 2018)

bodefuceta said:


> It's time to blame the elephant in the room and do something about it. The common element in the overwhelming majority if not all of these ocurrences. The thing that NEEDS to be banned. Psychotropic drugs.


your kidding right thething that needs to be done is more psychological testing not prison too bad both prisons and mental hospitials are overcrowded


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> It really isn't complicated at all.  To buy a weapon you initial a few things and wait thirty minutes to an hour.  Afterward, converting to a fully automatic simply requires the purchase of a bump stock, which is still legal in all but seven states.
> 
> Hell, these days you can bypass the purchase altogether and just 3D print an untraceable gun with any firing mode you prefer.


A bump stock, or even a crank, does not make a weapon automatic - that's a clear misunderstanding of what the word "automatic" means.



MrCokeacola said:


> So the 1000s of gun reviewers on youtube all had to got though a huge complicated processes to get their guns. Neat.


That's correct.


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## Noctosphere (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> 3D printed guns can't go through 30 rounds without shattering, let alone sustaining automatic fire. You can make illegal modifications to make existing weapons automatic or you could machine certain parts from metal if you wanted to, but the "illegal" part is the important one here. On the subject of 3D prints, they basically invalidate any gun control measures as-is and I don't see how they won't cause a revolution in how we think about guns in the long term.


You say 30 rounds, its still a lot when you consider you can print many guns and bring them in an airport without being detected


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> You say 30 rounds, its still a lot when you consider you can print many guns and bring them in an airport without being detected


And how would you do that, pray tell? The rounds are still made of metal, y'know. And even if you could, so what? You'll get caught at the first x-ray scanner. I got stopped over a bottle of lemon juice because the bottle vaguely resembled a grenade.


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## DJPlace (Aug 27, 2018)

what the shit.... i bet the asshole did not get his pre-order bonus and said fuck it i'm killing everyone


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## Delerious (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> A bump stock, or even a crank, does not make a weapon automatic - that's a clear misunderstanding of what the word "automatic" means.



It just makes it rapid-fire, right? Also, for those saying that we aren't doing anything about automatic weapons and bump stocks - 



> *Regulatory status in the United States*
> The ATF ruled in 2010 that bump stocks were not a firearm subject to regulation and allowed their sale as an unregulated firearm part.[5][9][10] In the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, twelve bump fire stock devices were found at the scene.[11] The National Rifle Association stated on 5 October 2017, "Devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations", and called on regulators to "immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law".[12] The 2017 shooting generated bipartisan interest in regulating bump stocks.[13] On 4 October 2017 senator Dianne Feinstein introduced a bill to ban bump stocks,[5] but as of November 3, 2017, no Congressional action had resulted. Instead, President Trump instructed the ATF to issue regulations to treat bump stocks as machineguns. A notice of proposed rulemaking was issued by the ATF on March 29, 2018, and opened for public comments.[14]
> 
> Sale of bump stocks has been illegal in California since 1990. They were banned in New York with the passage of the NY SAFE Act in 2013. In his final day as governor in January 2018, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie signed legislation making the gun accessory illegal in New Jersey.[15] The device's legal status is unclear in Connecticut, Michigan, Minnesota, Puerto Rico, and Washington, D.C.[16] Massachusetts banned bump stocks after the 2017 Las Vegas shooting.[8]
> ...


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Delerious said:


> It just makes it rapid-fire, right? Also, for those saying that we aren't doing anything about automatic weapons and bump stocks -


Extremely inaccurate rapid fire, yes. It negates any aiming capability after the first round due to the nature of how a bump stock works - it's effectively a spring. The force of recoil pushes the weapon backwards into the stock and as the gasses exit the weapon, the spring pushes it back onto your finger, causing a semi-automatic to fire another round. The problem with that is that you're at the mercy of recoil - you're allowing the body of the weapon to fly wherever it pleases as long as it moves back and forth on the axis, so you're spraying and praying. A crank is a little different, it's a turning mechanism that rapidly pulls the trigger, and here you have the opposite problem - the weapon stays firmly on the axis, but the cranking motion moves it up and down, negating accuracy again. They're neat party tricks, but they have no practical use besides wasting ammunition. A fully automatic weapon is capable of loading and discharging rounds automatically without having to pull the trigger multiple times, that's not what a bump stock or a crank provide.


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## Nitro-Gale (Aug 27, 2018)

Shit man... I watched the stream for it on a mirror link. It was enough to make me set down my phone and take a breather.

I could distinctly hear one person in clear agony saying "Oh God, what did you shoot me with?" before more shots were fired.

To think there were possibly young children who may have said their last words on that stream, what the hell has this country come to?


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## Joe88 (Aug 27, 2018)

chrisrlink said:


> btw why is it legal to 3d print a gun now? suicide by cop is going to spike over this


If we are talking about the thing from a few weeks ago about 3d printed guns with the AR15, what every news organization failed to mention was only the receiver was 3d printed, everything else was made of metal, all parts from an actual gun.
Now 3d printed handguns exist "but" they will pretty much break apart, they have a very short range, and the actual bullet speed, penetrating force is a problem, but they still contain metal, the bullets, the firing pin wont get passed metal detectors or xray machines.

You can make a shotgun out of plumbing supplies and other basic stuff from the hardware store.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> If we are talking about the thing from a few weeks ago about 3d printed guns with the AR15, what every news organization failed to mention was only the receiver was 3d printed, everything else was made of metal, all parts from an actual gun.
> Now 3d printed handguns exist "but" they will pretty much break apart, they have a very short range, and the actual bullet speed, penetrating force is a problem, but they still contain metal, the bullets, the firing pin wont get passed metal detectors or xray machines.
> 
> You can make a shotgun out of plumbing supplies and other basic stuff from the hardware store.


People who are worried about 3D printing are grossly unaware of pipe guns. You can cobble together something that shoots bullets out of just about anything. Your neighbours could have home-made guns in their garage and you wouldn't be any wiser. The panic is silly and unjustified.


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## Anfroid (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> People who are worried about 3D printing are grossly unaware of pipe guns. You can cobble together something that shoots bullets out of just about anything. Your neighbours could have home-made guns in their garage and you wouldn't be any wiser. The panic is silly and unjustified.


My dad's uncle made guns out of random junk for a hobby, scared the shit out of us when he aimed at his foot and shot a blank.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Anfroid said:


> My dad's uncle made guns out of random junk for a hobby, scared the shit out of us when he aimed at his foot and shot a blank.


That's quite funny, in a morbid kind of way. I hope he didn't burn his foot in the process, the gasses are quite hot, even a blank can severely harm a person if shot from a small enough distance.


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## nWo (Aug 27, 2018)

The world, is a strange and crazy place.


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## Anfroid (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> That's quite funny, in a morbid kind of way. I hope he didn't burn his foot in the process, the gasses are quite hot, even a blank can severely harm a person if shot from a small enough distance.


Not that it would make much of a difference, he was already in a wheelchair at the time. He had to have been past his 80's at the time.


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## haxan (Aug 27, 2018)

oh my god! that's so horrible


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Anfroid said:


> Not that it would make much of a difference, he was already in a wheelchair at the time. He had to have been past his 80's at the time.


That's even more morbid, but goes to show that where there's a will, there's a way. Even if you're 80 and wheelchair-bound you can still make a gun out of scrap. Your dad's uncle was a right prankster.


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## pustal (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Sad news, it seems the US is no longer a safe place. I wonder what's wrong with their society that the mass shootings are more and more common every day.



Division, everything has to be a duality, there are is no discussion or complexity sold to people. Then there is a culture of fear sold to the population. To top that out, there are religious currents in power even that either or both believe the end of the world is coming and that their riches are rewards from God. This makes them act with disregard for futures generations because why should they care or if they were rewarded, they are doing nothing wrong.

Either way, in the midst of fear and polarization, some feel forgotten, and some are indeed forgotten such is the case with people with mental problems. Where once there was a country that had very bad mental healthcare, it closed down most mental institutions overnight and now it has severe lacking of it.

On top of all that there is a great arms dealing industry that lobbies astroturfs and rallies all it can to avoid any long of gun studies or regulation.



Justinde75 said:


> Can anybody tell me any pros of the Government allowing guns?





Justinde75 said:


> It still doesnt make sense to allow guns in a soceity where everybody should feel safe. There is really no need for serious "self defense" like this.



The problem is not in allowing guns but having little to no restriction on ownership. You should be able to own a gun if you don't feel safe or if you want to hunt or something. This if you are capable and fit to own one and you should only be able to have a gun signed for hunting or protection.



qqq1 said:


> Yup, no check. Well except for the federal background check that is required. I'm guessing you've never bought a gun.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole
http://time.com/5170667/charleston-loophole-fix-nics/
Etc...



Foxi4 said:


> This fact alone is just confusing to me. If the government was interested in saving lives, you would think they'd restrict access to weapons that statistically cause the most deaths, meaning handguns. Rifles are not the weapon of choice for mass shooters, automatic or semi-automatic - the most commonly used weapon in such instances is a handgun, provided we accept the current ludicrous definition of a mass shooting, which I obviously don't.
> That's always the excuse. Tell me one thing, if the proponents of gun regulation are so interested in reducing the death toll, why are they racing to ban "assault weapons", which is a trumped-up term they invented as no actual assault rifles can be legally sold to citizens in the United States as there's a blanket ban on automatics across the land? Semi-automatic rifles are not particularly deadly if you look at the data - they're used in the great minority of crimes, the most common weapon of choice is the handgun due to its portability and ease of concealment. Why are they sounding the alarm about the AR-15? Because looking at the numbers, all I can think of is "it looks kinda scary", which isn't an argument. All I keep hearing about is "we need to change the gun laws", but I'm not hearing any concrete solutions. You want to talk, let's talk then - what do you propose? How would you solve this conundrum? As far as I'm concerned, guns aren't even the issue - as I mentioned before, it's poverty, crime and mental health. There doesn't seem to be any discernable correlation between how strict or lax the regulations are and how likely it is that a mass shooting will occur in a given state, so there necessarily must be a different solution, but what? Anything short of mass confiscation would be ineffective, and mass confiscation is unacceptable and unpalatable to freedom, so what would you like to do?



Bullet serialization and registration. If a shell is empty you'd know who purchased it. Secondary market regulation, along all loopholes. Inheritance regulation. Deep mental evaluation. Ban on automatic or military grade weapons - even if difficult to have, non military personal should not have them. Required training and approval for licensing. Gun free zones (urban areas, public spaces). Regulation on storage - i.e: to have a gun you'd be required to have a secured safe for it. Mandatory reporting on any missing weapons.

Aside that, a program of volunteer illegal gun purchasing program like in Australia would definitely help.


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## netovsk (Aug 27, 2018)

Kevlar might become a fashion trend one of these days.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

pustal said:


> Bullet serialization and registration.


Interesting and possibly effective, but massively impractical.


> Secondary market regulation, along all loopholes.


The secondary market is already regulated, there are no loopholes. The "gun show loophole" is total nonsense, sales made at gun shows are not exempt from the very same checks that occur during a sale in a store. Every purchase from an FFL requires a federal check, regardless of location.


> Inheritance regulation.


...is already in place. Inheritance is not restricted unless a person is prohibited from owning firearms, a felon cannot inherit a gun.


> Deep mental evaluation.


That's fine.


> Ban on automatic or military grade weapons - even if difficult to have, non military personal should not have them.


Why? When was the last time a fully automatic weapon was used in a mass shooting?


> Required training and approval for licensing.


Okay.


> Gun free zones (urban areas, public spaces).


Arguably unconstitutional and ineffective. Citizens are allowed to bear arms, they must either be allowed to open carry or concealed carry, otherwise they're incapable of self-defense, which is a primary reason for owning firearms.


> Regulation on storage - i.e: to have a gun you'd be required to have a secured safe for it.


Those restrictions are already enacted in many states and are not effective, but I'm not opposed to safe storage - it's prudent.


> Mandatory reporting on any missing weapons.


Self-regulating. Weapons are expensive, of course you would report it if yours went missing.


> Aside that, a program of volunteer illigal gun purchasing program like in Australia would definitely help.


The gun buy-back programme was a giant flop, only 1/3rd of citizens turned their weapons in. If you promise to give me $100 for every illegal weapon I turn in, I'm immediately building 10 pipe guns to get some free money. Speaking of Australia, the citizens are rapidly rearming themselves and importing guns in, just figured I should mention that.

Some good points, mostly things that are already in place, with a healthy dash of myths.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Extremely inaccurate rapid fire, yes.


Just like a fully automatic weapon.  You don't need accuracy in a crowded building/event.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Just like a fully automatic weapon.  You don't need accuracy in a crowded building/event.


Nothing like an automatic weapon, actually. You fail to understand the mechanics at work. I suggest you watch at least one comparison video between a real automatic rifle and a bump-stocked one. *The entire weapon* moves, you have little to no control, it literally fires itself as it moves back and forth. That's not automatic, that's stupid, and no different than just pulling the trigger really fast. The case you're making is about the magazine size, not the stock. You can go through a magazine really quickly, with or without a bump stock, your objection is just silly.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Nothing like an automatic weapon, actually. You fail to understand the mechanics at work. I suggest you watch at least one comparison video between a real automatic rifle and a bump-stocked one. *The entire weapon* moves, you have little to no control, it literally fires itself as it moves back and forth. That's not automatic, that's stupid, and no different than just pulling the trigger really fast.


I've fired both full autos and bump stock modified weapons.  Yes, a bump stock does make a gun a little more unruly, but it's not uncontrollable by any definition.  Just slightly more inaccurate than a full auto weapon, which often come in higher calibers and thus have more kick to them even if it's less of the gun that moves overall.  Bottom line: you don't buy a full auto or a bump stock for hunting/target shooting.  They're only good at spray and pray, aka mass murder.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I've fired both full autos and bump stock modified weapons.  Yes, a bump stock does make a gun a little more unruly, but it's not uncontrollable by any definition.  Just slightly more inaccurate than a full auto weapon, which often come in higher calibers and thus have more kick to them even if it's less of the gun that moves overall.  Bottom line, you aren't buying a full auto or a bump stock for hunting/target shooting.  They're only good at spray and pray, aka mass murder.


I can agree with the last sentiment, however I'm of the opinion that people are innocent until proven guilty and it's not for you to assume what they're going to do with their weapon. They just might *like* shooting, that's reason enough and none of your concern. Just out if curiosity, what is the difference between how you fire a full auto and a bump-stocked semi? Because there's a very specific difference and I wonder if you know it, as a test.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I can agree with the last sentiment, however I'm of the opinion that people are innocent until proven guilty and it's not for you to assume what they're going to do with their weapon. They just might *like* shooting, that's reason enough and none of your concern.


In most cases you're guilty of a crime just by owning a full auto in the first place.  Common sense says the same needs to happen for bump stock modified weapons, but it seems to be an issue completely forgotten about at the federal level.  Until the next mass shooting with a modded weapon, anyway.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> In most cases you're guilty of a crime just by owning a full auto in the first place.  Common sense says the same needs to happen for bump stock modified weapons, but it seems to be an issue completely forgotten about at the federal level.  Until the next mass shooting with a modded weapon, anyway.


I've added an extra question in an edit, you may have missed it. I was wondering if you know what the fundamental difference in firing technique is between a full auto and a bump-stocked semi, since that seems to be the crux of our disagreement.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I've added an extra question in an edit, you may have missed it. I was wondering if you know what the fundamental difference in firing technique is between a full auto and a bump-stocked semi, since that seems to be the crux of our disagreement.


I don't remember TBH.  I fired both as rentals at an outdoor range, and the owner showed me and my friends how to fire each at the time, but this was years ago.  I only own a handgun (.45) and shotgun (12ga) myself for target/clay pigeon shooting, and I guess a last line of home defense if need arises (not that it ever has or I expect it to).  So those are the only weapons I'm currently familiar with firing.

Edit: additionally, you might be shocked to hear that I don't mind 2A, it's fine as it is.  It's the mistakes we've made as a nation with other things (like mental health treatment for one) _in conjunction _with 2A that have created a serious problem with mass shootings in this country.  As usual, a lot of stingy shortsightedness in spending has led to a much larger cost down the road, this time paid in blood.


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## Tigran (Aug 27, 2018)

XDel said:


> We've more shootings and killings now a days than in the old west before we started data basing, before the mass prison system, and most importantly before the mass media as it exists today.



Thing is.. Int he old west you actually had to check your gun at the sheriffs station before going into town in a lot of places.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



SonowRaevius said:


> My thoughts on this
> 
> "Oh, another one" and then I continue on with life.
> 
> I doesn't mean that I don't empathize with those that lost someone they love today, but when you hear about another shooting every week you sort of start to at least become numb to the news of them a bit and that is probably the saddest thing about the whole ordeal.



How many more before it's you that can't continue on with life?


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## Foupen (Aug 27, 2018)

Oh my god. Shit like this is why civilians shouldn't be allowed to carry guns. At the very least, strict gun regulations and family background checks should be done first before people can obtain guns in order to avoid dangerous people from obtaining guns. It's obvious that guns cause more harm than good. Some people might say guns do not kill people do, but what those people don't understand is that killers look for a fast quick kill, so they can leave the scene quickly and guns are the perfect weapon for that. I'm not a liberal nor even American but US seriously needs strict gun control. F**k NRA.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I don't remember TBH.  I fired both as rentals at an outdoor range, and the owner showed me and my friends how to fire each at the time, but this was years ago.  I only own a handgun (.45) and shotgun (12ga) myself for target/clay pigeon shooting, and I guess a last line of home defense if need arises (not that it ever has or I expect it to).  So those are the only weapons I'm currently familiar with firing.


There's a very distinct mechanical difference between how the two operate and I refuse to believe that you would just "forget it" because firing a bump-stocked weapon is very unusual and unlike firing anything else, which casts a shadow of doubt on your account. The way you fire it is precisely why I said it's stupid and ineffective, it's a little bit more than just "unruly" and nothing like an automatic weapon, or any other firearm for that matter. No matter, I was just curious. I won't keep you in the dark. In short, you don't actually pull the trigger - you can't, the stock fully covers it. In order to fire you must "stretch" the weapon by applying force to the forward grip which pulls the weapon forward while the rear grip stays in place. Once the weapon fires, the recoil acts upon you by moving the weapon backwards and once absorbed enough, the force you're applying to the forward grip continues the cycle. This effectively negates *any* control you have over the forward grip as you're not actually holding it firmly as you would with an automatic, you're "stretching" the weapon at all times.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> There's a very distinct mechanical difference between how the two operate and I refuse to believe that you would just "forget it" because firing a bump-stocked weapon is very unusual and unlike firing anything else, which casts a shadow of doubt on your account. The way you fire it is precisely why I said it's stupid and ineffective, it's a little bit more than just "unruly" and nothing like an automatic weapon, or any other firearm for that matter.


Well it was in my early 20s, I'm now in my 30s and I've smoked a lot of weed since then.  But point taken, watching the video that is quite unique and it might not have been a bump stock I fired, I can't be sure now.

Regardless, that style of fire doesn't seem like it would be _that_ hard to get used to with a little practice.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Foupen said:


> It's obvious that guns cause more harm than good.


It's not in the least bit obvious. According to the CDC defensive gun use is commonplace. They concluded that most national surveys find that firearms are used in self-defense anywhere between 500,000 to even 3,000,000 times a year, in contrast with 300,000 gun-related violent crimes yearly. Most of those uses go unreported as the weapon is often never discharged, but even if we go with the reported, conservative estimate that's at least 67,000 instances of confirmed DGU, which translates to a lot of saved lives. Even if this wasn't the case, statistics should not affect one's right to self-defense - Americans are among the few nations who are still free to protect themselves and their homes from assault and ideally it should stay that way.



Xzi said:


> Well it was in my early 20s, I'm now in my 30s and I've smoked a lot of weed since then.  But point taken, watching the video that is quite unique and it might not have been a bump stock I fired, I can't be sure now.
> 
> Regardless, that style of fire doesn't seem like it would be _that_ hard to get used to with a little practice.


Even trained marksmen don't recommend bump stocks - just pulling the trigger quickly is a superior alternative unless your intention is to blast through a magazine as quickly as possible to turn a target dummy into a bunch of dust, which I can imagine to be a fun experience. There's a lot of different mods out there, you may have fired a crank or a hell-fire trigger, the latter seems to fall in line with the timing.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> It's not in the least bit obvious. According to the CDC defensive gun use is commonplace, they've found that most national surveys find that firearms are used in self-defense anywhere between 500,000 to even 3,000,000 times a year, in contrast with 300,000 gun-related violent yearly. Most of those uses go unreported as the weapon is often never discharged, but even if we go with the reported, conservative estimate that's at least 67,000 instances of confirmed DGU, which translates to a lot of saved lives. Even if this wasn't the case, statistics should not affect one's right to self-defense - Americans are among the few nations who are still free to protect themselves and their homes from assault and ideally it should stay that way.


There's no denying that so much gun ownership is a double-edged sword.  We buy guns to protect ourselves from guns.  Nobody buys a gun with the express intention of murder or reports their primary use of them as such, but gun murders happen constantly anyway.


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## XDel (Aug 27, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Thing is.. Int he old west you actually had to check your gun at the sheriffs station before going into town in a lot of places.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> How many more before it's you that can't continue on with life?



Sure thing, many towns did have this policy, but a policy is like bringing a napkin to a gun fight. Only two things kept people from violating those laws day in and day out. One was the fear of being shot back, the second was an individual agreement to abide by the laws set forth as an honorable means to attempt to evade fights and murders, where in guns are employed to reach those ends. 
Mind you, removing guns does not remove the means, guns just make some things easier, and again, if someone really wanted to, they could put together a group that out numbered and out gunned a town's militia or what have you, and topple it, should they have desired. 
What people need more than control, is to have meaningful education about guns amongst other things, readily available as opposed to the non-sense that pases as news and entertainment these days.


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## Deleted User (Aug 27, 2018)

Today in Florida: Florida.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> There's no denying that so much gun ownership is a double-edged sword.  We buy guns to protect ourselves from guns.  Nobody buys a gun with the express intention of murder or reports their primary use of them as such, but gun murders happen constantly anyway.


It's not the criminals I'm worried about, criminals will find a way no matter how you legislate, especially when the U.S. has insecure borders and smuggling people and cargo from South America is still relatively commonplace. It's the principle of bearing arms that's important to many people, the right to self-determine your fate and, in a lot of ways, preventing the government from taking things too far. As my main man Shapiro says, "the fact that my grandparents didn't fear tyranny is why there are ashes in Europe" - love him or hate him, but he's right. As I said earlier, freedom is always one generation away from extinction and I firmly believe that citizens should de facto distrust their representatives, keep'em honest.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> It's not the criminals I'm worried about, criminals will find a way no matter how you legislate, especially when the U.S. has insecure borders and smuggling people and cargo from South America is still relatively commonplace. It's the principle of bearing arms that's important to many people, the right to self-determine your fate and, in a lot of ways, preventing the government from taking things too far. As my main man Shapiro says, "the fact that my grandparents didn't fear tyranny is why there are ashes in Europe" - love him or hate him, but he's right. As I said earlier, freedom is always one generation away from extinction and I firmly believe that citizens should de facto distrust their representatives, keep'em honest.


IMO using 2A to overthrow a tyrannical government or stand up to the police state long ago became a pipe dream, the US populace is far too complacent.  Not to mention that our weapons wouldn't do shit against the military if they decided to get hostile, and everybody is aware of that fact.


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## Tigran (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> IMO using 2A to overthrow a tyrannical government or stand up to the police state long ago became a pipe dream, the US populace is far too complacent.  Not to mention that our weapons wouldn't do shit against the military if they decided to get hostile, and everybody is aware of that fact.



Not to mention, most of the people who claim they want guns to fight the goverment... would be absolutely useless. They could easily be taken out while they stand in their doorways like idiots shooting wildly.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> IMO using 2A to overthrow a tyrannical government or stand up to the police state long ago became a pipe dream, the US populace is far too complacent.  Not to mention that our weapons wouldn't do shit against the military if they decided to get hostile, and everybody is aware of that fact.


I disagree. If there was an *actual* tyrannical government in place, I honestly believe private citizens would stand up against it effectively, and Vietnam shows precisely how and why - the U.S. military is not designed for combating long-term guerilla warfare, it's designed with shock and awe in mind. Moreover, I very much doubt that the American military would happily turn against their friends and family - this would immediately cause a civil war. Finally, because of the sheer number of armed citizens, any conventional or even unconventional warheads are basically non-starters due to collateral - there's a gun owner on every street in the U.S., what are you going to do about it, bomb every single street? This is precisely why confiscation is not an option - because the *threat* of armed rebellion is enough to ensure that you'll never have to rebel.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> This is precisely why confiscation is not an option - because the *threat* of armed rebellion is enough to ensure that you'll never have to rebel.


You're giving the average US citizen far too much credit in assuming they would know when authoritarianism was taking root and our rights were being stripped away.  That shit kicked into overdrive after 9/11 and GWB's policies like the Patriot Act, but the majority of vocal 2A people were on his side, and plenty of other citizens were simply apathetic.  Some years later, _all_ internet traffic starts running through and being stored in a massive NSA server complex underneath Utah, including everyone's personal data.  Still not a peep from the tyranny fighters.  Now we've got Trump and a whole new set of problems, not the least of which being that he's the first president implicated in multiple felonies, but still they'll do nothing and many support him.

Long story short, there is no threat of armed rebellion because people (in particular any 2Aer that needs the NRA to tell them how to feel) are either apathetic, completely inattentive to politics/current events, or just plain ignorant/stupid and thus easy to manipulate.  The US education system has failed us many times over.  If anything, the government will collapse under the weight of incompetence of our elected leaders long before citizens stage an armed rebellion against it.


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## Bladexdsl (Aug 27, 2018)

did someone forget it was just a game?


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## Kourin (Aug 27, 2018)

How many shootings is it going to take for America to do something?


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> You're giving the average US citizen far too much credit in assuming they would know when authoritarianism was taking root and our rights were being stripped away.  That shit kicked into overdrive after 9/11 and GWB's policies like the Patriot Act, but the majority of vocal 2A people were on his side, and plenty of other citizens were simply apathetic.  Some years later, _all_ internet traffic starts running through and being stored in a massive NSA server complex underneath Utah, including everyone's personal data.  Still not a peep from the tyranny fighters.  Now we've got Trump and a whole new set of problems, the least of which being that he's the first president implicated in multiple felonies, but still they'll do nothing and many support him.
> 
> Long story short, there is no threat of armed rebellion because people (in particular any 2Aer that needs the NRA to tell them how to feel) are either apathetic, completely inattentive to politics/current events, or just plain ignorant/stupid.  The US education system has failed us many times over.  If anything, the government will collapse under the weight of incompetence of our elected leaders long before citizens stage an armed rebellion against it.


You're partially right - you can boil a frog without protest as long as you do it slowly. The offense would have to be pretty sudden and egregious. It also depends on your definition of what's an offense or what's tyrannical. As for the case for citizens against the federal government, your mileage may vary - the Bundy stand-off shows that the whole point of the 2nd is still alive and well as Mr.Bundy, his family and his associates are free with their charges dismissed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff


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## Deleted User (Aug 27, 2018)

It's been proven repeatedly that gun sales has no correlation with violent crime. If that guy didn't have a gun, he would've used a dirty bomb, if he didn't have this, then he would've used that.

There really should be better mental healthcare, but instead, everyone's rallying once more behind the age old banner of 'guns are bad'.

Taking guns out of the people's hands, for ANY reason, is not the answer. Though a lot of the centrist suggestions of minor gun control make sense on the surface, that doesn't change the fact that youre denying people their right to self defense. Fun fact, I have a history of suicial attempts and chronic depression. So should I be denied a gun?


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> You're partially right - you can boil a frog without protest as long as you do it slowly. The offense would have to be pretty sudden and egregious. It also depends on your definition of what's an offense or what's tyrannical. As for the case for citizens against the federal government, your mileage may vary - the Bundy stand-off shows that the whole point of the 2nd is still alive and well as Mr.Bundy, his family and his associates are free with their charges dismissed.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff


The point of 2A is to terrorize parks employees and fill a wildlife refuge building with garbage and shit?  Huh, TIL.  

I can see how they _might've_ thought they were making a good point with their actions, but they just came off as douchebags, and I'm glad people sent them dildos in the mail during that.  They chose the most cowardly way to show resistance that they possibly could.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> It's been proven repeatedly that gun sales has no correlation with violent crime. If that guy didn't have a gun, he would've used a dirty bomb, if he didn't have this, then he would've used that.
> 
> There really should be better mental healthcare, but instead, everyone's rallying once more behind the age old banner of 'guns are bad'.
> 
> Taking guns out of the people's hands, for ANY reason, is not the answer. Though a lot of the centrist suggestions of minor gun control make sense on the surface, that doesn't change the fact that youre denying people their right to self defense. Fun fact, I have a history of suicial attempts and chronic depression. So should I be denied a gun?


Yes, you should, and I'm a gun advocate. Not for your sake, mind - anyone can attempt suicide if they put their mind to it, that's beyond our control. What is in our control is gun ownership, and I firmly believe that if you're mentally unstable, a gun is the last thing you need - you'd pose a danger to others, no offense. I wish you well on your road to recovery though - life is worth living, I'm sure you have friends here on the Temp, and finding a therapist might help too if you have trouble opening up.


Xzi said:


> The point of 2A is to terrorize parks employees and fill a wildlife refuge building with garbage and shit?  Huh, TIL.
> 
> I can see how they _might've_ thought they were making a good point with their actions, but they just came off as douchebags, and I'm glad people sent them dildos in the mail during that.  They chose the most cowardly way to show resistance that they possibly could.


Seems to me like they won - they are free, they got their cattle back, the cattle continue to "illegaly" graze on the same land it grazed on for generations and nobody got killed in the process. Cowardly? Maybe, but it worked for them.


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## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not saying that the fact that people get shot is not in part because they have access to guns - it is. Without guns there would be no shootings, without cars there would be no road accidents, what of it? The problem here is the black market which will never wholly be eliminated and the cost in freedom which in my estimation is just too great to bear. By saying that the United States should "get on the same level with the rest of the world" you're effectively advocating for a blanket ban on firearms, which I knew was your intention from the start and which you vehemently denied. All I wanted was for you to admit that and say it out loud instead of pulling wool over people's eyes as if that wasn't at all what you meant and that you had a magical law that wouldn't ostensibly limit their freedom. It's the lying that I don't like, not your sentiment - we can't have a discussion if you plan on being dishonest or refuse to acknowledge what you actually want.


I am not playing your game anymore, I know what you are doing and that you are trying to control the conversation in your favor through strawman arguments. I never said anything along those lines, but you are the one choosing the distort my statements in an attempt to make me look like I am advocating for a blanket ban on guns. Other countries still have guns, what they don't have is guns like handguns and AR-15s. Other countries have better background checks, mental screenings, and training before the person can get a gun. Other countries don't have regular mass shootings because of these regulations. I won't admit shit because you are making it up to make me look bad.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Seems to me like they won - they are free, they got their cattle back, the cattle continue to "illegaly" graze on the same land it grazed on for generations and nobody got killed in the process. Cowardly? Maybe, but it worked for them.


Seems like the whole thing got dismissed based on something the government prosecutors did wrong.  Possibly on purpose given that the government was being run by Trump when it went to trial.  So I guess it's a "win" based on a technicality and a changing political climate that allows for bending or altogether breaking laws, but the ends still don't justify the means.  Not to mention one of their buddies got shot up and killed by the feds after pulling a weapon on them during the occupation period.  The remaining dipshits will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.


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## Joom (Aug 27, 2018)

ItsKipz said:


> Every mass shooting has one thing in common - a gun. That's also the easiest one to fix. Make access to guns harder for people with mental health issues, implement basic background checks, implement mandatory waiting periods, and literally 90% of all violence in the USA is gone. The only people who oppose basic gun control are murderers.


Except you can't force this on private sellers, which makes your point moot. Anyone can come off the street into a gun show, and walk out with anything without any sort of background check. You wanna control guns? Make the ammunition super difficult to obtain. They're kinda useless without that, and that'd be much easier to regulate than guns themselves.


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## WhiteMaze (Aug 27, 2018)

ChaosEternal said:


> The statistics don't hold out for such a conclusion; it's safer than it's ever been. Violent crime has been dropping for decades on pretty much all fronts. Shootings like these, as tragic as they are, represent only a tiny blip on the radar in terms of overall violence. As for why they occur, I'm nowhere near qualified to even attempt to answer that. StarGazerTom's answer would be my best guess.



Trying to defend such a horrible situation with general crime percentage, is not only despicable, but also very disturbing to hear. This is exactly the horrific type of mentality that has driven the United States to the current situation.

This is a massive problem, seen only in the USA, yet it refuses to change its gun policies while people keep dying.

With all that said, I hope you change your mindset soon. Peace.

*EDIT:* I've calmed down.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am not playing your game anymore, I know what you are doing and that you are trying to control the conversation in your favor through strawman arguments. I never said anything along those lines, but you are the one choosing the distort my statements in an attempt to make me look like I am advocating for a blanket ban on guns. Other countries still have guns, what they don't have is guns like handguns and AR-15s. Other countries have better background checks, mental screenings, and training before the person can get a gun. Other countries don't have regular mass shootings because of these regulations. I won't admit shit because you are making it up to make me look bad.


I'm not playing any games at all. My assumption was that you are advocating for a blanket ban since that's the de facto state of matters in the "other" countries you're referring to, presumably European ones. I can assure you that you can purchase rifles like the AR-15 in Europe, as well as handguns (although some countries, like the UK banned them entirely), providing you have the appropriate permits, which you probably won't get since in most places the law is expressly designed to be a complicated system of ropes and pulleys that deny applications. In my home country I definitely wouldn't be able to get one unless I was "good friends" with the local PD, and I mean a financial friend, and corruption is not my game. I'm also not sure what you even mean by "not like handguns or AR-15", there's not a lot out there that wouldn't be either a handgun or a rifle. Do you mean shotguns? I genuinely don't know. There's nothing scary about an AR-15 - it's a modular semi-automatic rifle platform like dozens of others, its only crime is that it's popular and it's popular because it's good and cheap. In the UK for instance the Beretta ARX 160 is a popular "AR-like" civilian rifle, there's nothing particularly wrong with it either.

http://www.beretta.com/en/arx160/



Xzi said:


> Seems like the whole thing got dismissed based on something the government prosecutors did wrong.  Possibly on purpose given that the government was being run by Trump when it went to trial.  So I guess it's a "win" based on a technicality and a changing political climate that allows for bending or altogether breaking laws, but the ends still don't justify the means.  Not to mention one of their buddies got shot up and killed by the feds after pulling a weapon on them during the occupation period.  The remaining dipshits will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.


A win's a win. You're thinking of LaVoy Finicum, he was a genuine idiot and I'm not surprised he got shot - you don't taunt federal agents to shoot you while reaching for a gun, that's not standing your ground anymore.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not playing any games at all. My assumption was that you are advocating for a blanket ban since that's the de facto state of matters in the "other" countries you're referring to, presumably European ones. I can assure you that you can purchase rifles like the AR-15 in Europe, as well as handguns, providing you have the appropriate permits, which you probably won't get since in most places the law is expressly designed to be a complicated system of ropes and pulleys that deny applications. In my home country I definitely wouldn't be able to get one unless I was "good friends" with the local PD, and I mean a financial friend, and corruption is not my game. I'm also not sure what you even mean by "not like handguns or AR-15", there's not a lot out there that wouldn't be either a handgun or a rifle. Do you mean shotguns? I genuinely don't know. There's nothing scary about an AR-15 - it's a modular semi-automatic rifle platform like dozens of others, its only crime is that it's popular and it's popular because it's good and cheap. In the UK for instance the Beretta ARX 160 is a popular "AR-like" civilian rifle, there's nothing particularly wrong with it either.
> 
> http://www.beretta.com/en/arx160/
> 
> A win's a win. You're thinking of LaVoy Finicum, he was a genuine idiot and I'm not surprised he got shot - you don't taunt federal agents to shoot you while reaching for a gun, that's not standing your ground anymore.


I've been talking about counties like Japan and Australia. You can buy and own guns in both countries, but it comes with strick regulations that have been proven to work in those countries. Law abiding citizens still get their guns for sport, hunting, etc.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I've been talking about counties like Japan and Australia. You can buy and own guns in both countries, but it comes with strick regulations that have been proven to work in those countries. Law abiding citizens still get their guns for sport, hunting, etc.


I'm not keen on comparisons with Japan simply because Japanese culture as a whole is very different from American culture, or even Western culture in general. As for Australia, they're a very insular society and it's not immediately obvious that the gun "ban" or the buy-back programme had any effect as statistically the rates of gun crime were already declining before the legislation was implemented. Again, worth noting, Australians are rapidly re-arming themselves in recent years, so there's that. Besides, in both cases you're sort of diminishing your own argument. You're telling me that there are cultures out there that have access to guns and aren't committing mass shootings, which really roast my almonds because that's exactly what the gun lobby is saying. The regulations "are working" [Citation Needed] in those counties, but that doesn't mean they'll work elsewhere.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> You're thinking of LaVoy Finicum, he was a genuine idiot and I'm not surprised he got shot


They're all genuine idiots and I'm surprised they didn't all get shot, that would've been an understandable response to their actions.  The feds gave them a lot of leeway that probably wouldn't have been afforded to them if their skin color was anything other than white.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Aug 27, 2018)

Sad.

Yes, I mean it, "sad", that's the only thing I wanted to say, and this whole sentence down here is only to bypass the "not one word only" post rule, just that, I guess you can ignore this line completely, just read the "Sad." above.


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Yes, you should, and I'm a gun advocate. Not for your sake, mind - anyone can attempt suicide if they put their mind to it, that's beyond our control. What is in our control is gun ownership, and I firmly believe that if you're mentally unstable, a gun is the last thing you need - you'd pose a danger to others, no offense. I wish you well on your road to recovery though - life is worth living, I'm sure you have friends here on the Temp, and finding a therapist might help too if you have trouble opening up.



I get what you mean, making a dirty bomb to destroy my life and the lives of others would take weeks of preparation, it's not something I can pull out in a moment of weakness.

But that's where my agreement with you ends. It's just a fundamental value I have, I deserve the right to self-defense.



Lilith Valentine said:


> I am not playing your game anymore, I know what you are doing and that you are trying to control the conversation in your favor through strawman arguments. I never said anything along those lines, but you are the one choosing the distort my statements in an attempt to make me look like I am advocating for a blanket ban on guns. Other countries still have guns, what they don't have is guns like handguns and AR-15s. Other countries have better background checks, mental screenings, and training before the person can get a gun. Other countries don't have regular mass shootings because of these regulations. I won't admit shit because you are making it up to make me look bad.



Other countries don't have mass shootings because they have dirty bombs.

Also, please give me sources for your claim that America has 'regular mass shootings'. Like what does that even mean?


----------



## WhiteMaze (Aug 27, 2018)

TerribleTy27 said:


> I get what you mean, making a dirty bomb to destroy my life and the lives of others would take weeks of preparation, it's not something I can pull out in a moment of weakness.
> 
> But that's where my agreement with you ends. It's just a fundamental value I have, I deserve the right to self-defense.



Everyone, everywhere in the world, has the right to self-defense.

In *America* however, self-defense means owning rifles, handguns, semi-automatic weapons, and bazookas. And if you do your paperwork right, I'm pretty sure you can get a small Tank or an Anti-Aircraft Battery too (in case an evil wasp finds its way into your backyard).


----------



## Deleted User (Aug 27, 2018)

WhiteMaze said:


> Everyone, everywhere in the world, has the right to self-defense.
> 
> In *America* however, self-defense means owning rifles, handguns, semi-automatic weapons, and bazookas. And if you do your paperwork right, I'm pretty sure you can get a small Tank or an Anti-Aircraft Battery too.



sorry, looks like I misworded myself. I meant I have a right to arms.

Btw, what's wrong with Semis? I get not allowing people tanks and AABs 

(which is a compromise, I think you have the right to own whatever the hell you want, but I get that you don't need a tank for defense), 

but semi-automatic and rifle weapons are incredibly useful for home and business defense in dangerous neighbourhoods.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Aug 27, 2018)

WhiteMaze said:


> or an Anti-Aircraft Battery too (in case an evil wasp finds its way into your backyard).


Lol, that made me laugh seriously. That must be some monster wasp, early Permian style.


----------



## WildDog (Aug 27, 2018)

While i live in the Netherlands, i'm not dutch. My home coutries when it comes to weapons has laws that are similar to the US. Been a gun owner (in my home country not NL), since i was 18. Never did a massacre neither my friends or their friends..
On a side note for those who say getting a fully automatic weapon in the US is hard or not possible, LOL... While it's true that getting a full auto that was made after 1986 is a big NOOOO by BATFE. You can still make your own using parts you can buy in gun store..
Example:
The Glock 17 (the gun i  carry with my in my home country).  It's cheap, accurate and most important reliable. Retail price in the US about 500 something,  for about another 100 you can get an Auto sear..
Now let's go to news favourite "Evil" black rifle... The AR15.
Wnat one that's full auto?
You only need 
- BCG that's ready for full auto (90 US retail price)
- Full auto trigger group (about 150 US retail complete)
- Upper of your liking (from 300 to 1000 depending components)
- 80% lower  (from 50 us to 200), the another 100 to mill the rest of the lower and you get a lower that can take your full auto trigger group
-Rest of the parts (buffer spring, buffer tube, etc another 200)
All those parts can be bought legally in a lot of retail places, in fact it's the cheaper way to use an AR15 that's Semi and full auto. Have quite a lot friends in the US, that did that.
Yet neither of them who owns this type of AR-15 among other weapons went and did a massacre.
Firearms are not the issue, they are just a tool. If they were not there legally, they would get it illegal or even use home made weapons which can be as dangerous.
There is really a mental health issue going on there.  Incels, radicals, violent antifa, violent racist, it seems it's a nest for hatred that ends in deaths.


----------



## zacchi4k (Aug 27, 2018)

And this is why I would never go live in the USA. I don't want to sound offensive, but there simply are a lot of things there which are a big no-no for me.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also who's waiting for almost all the media to point fingers at violent video games and say that they're the fault and all the usual shit? Cmon, we all know it's going to happen


----------



## Kigiru (Aug 27, 2018)

What the fuck is wrong with America?
Here in Poland we have one of the most less restrictive gun laws in Europe and the number of shootings is marginal, so i can't see how it's connected to this wave of shootings in USA. The source of the problem must be somewhere, but blanket ban on all guns is simply not an answer and just scapegoating the actual problem.


----------



## Ritsuki (Aug 27, 2018)

I don't want to debate about this, been there, done that countless times here. Just sad to see that there is still some people thinking there's nothing wrong with the whole weapon thing in the US after that many shootings. And I live in a country with a greater firearm per inhabitant ratio (military grade firearm) than the US.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Aug 27, 2018)

Priestiality said:


> Why are you so eager to focus on "shall not be infringed" while ignoring "well-regulated militia"?


Militia =/= military. Militia is a civilian fighting force.


----------



## WildDog (Aug 27, 2018)

Ritsuki said:


> I don't want to debate about this, been there, done that countless times here. Just sad to see that there is still some people thinking there's nothing wrong with the whole weapon thing in the US after that many shootings. And I live in a country with a greater firearm per inhabitant ratio (military grade firearm) than the US.



That's a good example why, firearms are NOT the issue, there are lot of weapons in switzerland, you have SIG one of the most famous gun maker, that mostly makes military weapons from the Sig P2XX,  20XX to rifles like the Sig SG55X family to the  SG516 family and now they are making AR 15 derivates.  Yet when was the last time a swiss person went to a tournament and started shooting people???
It's a mental issue, if it was A DC Comic. The US would be the Red Lantern HQ....  Most of the sub culture that spawn from there is just based in hate for something or someone, that's not healthy at all.


----------



## Dr.Hacknik (Aug 27, 2018)

I love how GBAtemp is full of Left sided nut cases who want to take away freedoms that we've had for years. There's no reason to take them away. Sure, the instances where guns for self defense are not needed are becoming slim; but still. Having a weapon is a good comfort. It at least gives you confidence to ensure one's safety in a situation. For example, there have been instances where (personally family) have had to pull guns on people attempting to rob them. Sometimes people have pulled knives on family that are in their car, of course naturally, my family member would pull a gun on the attacker. So, who wins? The guy with a knife, or my family member with a gun. You don't need to shoot an attacker to get them to run away. They simply need to know that you have control of the situation; and pointing a loaded weapon is usually enough.

But truly, it's sickening for this whole situation. And surprise surprise!~ This shit has been happening for decades folks! This is no new subject matter, and it won't stop anytime soon. The only reason that it 'seems' like it's happening more often, is because people are now paying more attention to the minority of violence. Yes, shootings are the minority. There are many more instances where gun violence is present. People need to stop being so blind, and start looking at a bigger picture, Will, logically, getting rid of all types of weapons for a US citizen truly help? There is the higher chance that criminals will simply buy them off the black market; and if you think it's difficult these days? You're quite wrong.


----------



## Ritsuki (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> That's a good example why, firearms are NOT the issue, there are lot of weapons in switzerland, you have SIG one of the most famous gun maker, that mostly makes military weapons from the Sig P2XX,  20XX to rifles like the Sig SG55X family to the  SG516 family and now they are making AR 15 derivates.  Yet when was the last time a swiss person went to a tournament and started shooting people???
> It's a mental issue, if it was A DC Comic. The US would be the Red Lantern HQ....  Most of the sub culture that spawn from there is just based in hate for something or someone, that's not healthy at all.



Yes, my point exactly, it's not about how many people have weapons, it's who and how they got them. That's why there should be background checks and training for people who have guns, and forbid the use to people underage, and a no gun policy in public area. That's a few things that can be done IMHO.


----------



## ChaosEternal (Aug 27, 2018)

WhiteMaze said:


> Trying to defend such a horrible situation with general crime percentage, is not only despicable, but also very disturbing to hear. This is exactly the horrific type of mentality that has driven the United States to the current situation.
> 
> This is a massive problem, seen only in the USA, yet it refuses to change its gun policies while people keep dying.
> 
> ...


I was refuting that guy's claim, not stating that I see no problem with the current situation. I have my own thoughts on what should be done to combat gun violence, I simply have not posted them here.


----------



## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> They're all genuine idiots and I'm surprised they didn't all get shot, that would've been an understandable response to their actions.  The feds gave them a lot of leeway that probably wouldn't have been afforded to them if their skin color was anything other than white.


I don't know why you'd make this a race thing all of a sudden, but even assuming that was the case, black people are statistically less likely to be shot by law enforcement in an engagement, they simply have more engagements with the police since black neighbourhoods are more strictly policed.


TerribleTy27 said:


> I get what you mean, making a dirty bomb to destroy my life and the lives of others would take weeks of preparation, it's not something I can pull out in a moment of weakness.
> 
> But that's where my agreement with you ends. It's just a fundamental value I have, I deserve the right to self-defense.
> 
> ...


You absolutely deserve the right to self-defense, it's just that self-defense is not your priority due to your mental state. If you were blind I wouldn't be keen on giving you a weapon either, it's about mental and physical capability, not about your rights.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't know why you'd make this a race thing all of a sudden, but even assuming that was the case, black people are statistically less likely to be shot by law enforcement in an engagement, they simply have more engagements with the police since black neighbourhoods are more strictly policed.


Not sure where you get your stats from, but your sentence kind of reads like a joke, the kind of "I didn't make you fall, I just left my leg there and you tripped over it /LOL".


----------



## WildDog (Aug 27, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> Not sure where you get your stats from, but your sentence kind of reads like a joke, the kind of "I didn't make you fall, I just left my leg there and you tripped over it /LOL".


Some people just drank way too much "American Dream" Kool Aid. No matter what  everything in the US is OK and when something happens is because of those filthy migrants!!!
A few days ago he posted this, 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Because one kid was killed by a migrant,  yet he fails to post about the rest of the people that's killed daily by "Native Americas" IE saxons who went there and took the land from the real americans...


I wonder why he was stopped??? and if they were afraid they had a weapons, why they had their weapons unholstered, like they do when they suspesct someone has a weapon???

Like i said to much hatred going on, too much racism and violence. Yet then we have to hear their president call every single country a shithole and hear how they are the only ones with freedom.
Then we have to see this type of sad news, where some people just went to play some games and did end death...


----------



## ChaosEternal (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> -snip-


Perhaps he believes that illegal immigration's costs aren't worth the benefits it brings and should be curtailed, just like many people here believe that the costs that guns bring aren't worth their benefits. That he draws those lines differently than you doesn't mean he isn't genuine.


----------



## kingfrost (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Some people just drank way too much "American Dream" Kool Aid. No matter what  everything in the US is OK and when something happens is because of those filthy migrants!!!
> A few days ago he posted this,
> 
> 
> ...




I just wanted to say that that political cartoon is in horrible taste and that politicizing the death of a human being to push immigration reform is no better than what most of you accuse people who want gun control to do.

Also there is a difference between a human being and a weapon. Yes a human can kill people but a weapon exists ONLY to kill.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Some people just drank way too much "American Dream" Kool Aid. No matter what  everything in the US is OK and when something happens is because of those filthy migrants!!!
> A few days ago he posted this,
> 
> 
> ...



You do realize that "Native Americans" migrated here, right? It was a long ass time ago, but they aren't exactly more "native" to this land than the Europeans who migrated here.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



kingfrost said:


> Also there is a difference between a human being and a weapon. Yes a human can kill people but a weapon exists ONLY to kill.



Tell that to my kitchen knife.


----------



## 0scar64 (Aug 27, 2018)

Before I start, I was in school in Colorado during Columbine, I've had relatives killed by guns, and I've worked at a skidrow pawn shop that sold guns as well.

As for background checks, they work just fine and block people who shouldn't have them. One big problem is prosecution. If someone is denied they can't purchase and it's forwarded to the Feds I believe, from what I've heard and seen they don't bother to prosecute. Furthermore, gun dealers can deny even if the background check clears and they do.

Working at a skidrow pawn shop, I dealt with the police everyday regarding stolen items and helping them trace stuff etc. Criminals steal. Ban private ownership of firearms? Well criminals will and have stolen police and military firearms quite often in my experience...

Mental health is a definite issue and tricky one too. Had a relative that was never quite right and eventually stole a gun and killed several others before killing himself. Those closest to him had at least several years to do something but didn't when it got really bad. Just ignored it. Once the rest of the family learned how bad it was, many chose to protect themselves with a gun.

The other big issue along with mental health is the media IMO. Absolutely glorifies violence by focusing on the perpetrator. 

How many "famous" killers can you name?

Now how many victims can you name?

I'd be curious to see what would happen if the media ignored the perpetrator and focused on the victims...


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Joom said:


> Except you can't force this on private sellers, which makes your point moot. Anyone can come off the street into a gun show, and walk out with anything without any sort of background check. You wanna control guns? Make the ammunition super difficult to obtain. They're kinda useless without that, and that'd be much easier to regulate than guns themselves.


Sure you can, you arrest the private seller as an accomplice to the crime if their gun was used in one and they didn't administer a full background check. I feel like THE only reason we still have problems with people stealing/buying guns and killing themselves and/or others is because we as a society, for some reason, have been afraid of punishing the original owners for lack of basic fucking common sense when storing or selling a piece of equipment who's only intended purpose is ultimately to forcibly remove bullet-sized pieces of flesh from people and animals

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TerribleTy27 said:


> Also, please give me sources for your claim that America has 'regular mass shootings'. Like what does that even mean?


Using the definition of "a shooting with four or more casualties": http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/query/0484b316-f676-44bc-97ed-ecefeabae077


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## PICTOCHAT (Aug 27, 2018)

Only in America...


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

sarkwalvein said:


> Not sure where you get your stats from, but your sentence kind of reads like a joke, the kind of "I didn't make you fall, I just left my leg there and you tripped over it /LOL".


I don't see what's confusing about it. Black Americans are less likely to be killed during an encounter with the police, but they have more encounters. They're also more likely to be treated rough, but ultimately, less likely to be shot dead.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/...police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html


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## WildDog (Aug 27, 2018)

Memoir said:


> You do realize that "Native Americans" migrated here, right? It was a long ass time ago, but they aren't exactly more "native" to this land than the Europeans who migrated here


When the real native americans migrated they were the first to move.. When the "US native" moved there, the natives have been there for a long long long time.
Then the US killed them...
And now you complaing about a Mexican how is more native to the North of America than the "true american" who is more british and irish than anything else.


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## ChaosEternal (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> When the real native americans migrated they were the first to move.. When the "US native" moved there, the natives have been there for a long long long time.
> Then the US killed them...
> And now you complaing about a Mexican how is more native to the North of America than the "true american" who is more british and irish than anything else.


He didn't say a single thing about Mexicans in his comment. You're projecting things onto him that he isn't saying. That's not arguing in good faith.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

The argument of "land-grabbing" is a silly one as Native Americans, by and large, had no concept of land ownership. There were no countries that the colonisers "invaded", they simply settled on the land and either bought it from the natives or fought for it. I'm not dismissing the great harm done to Native American tribes, but I'm not entirely sure what colonisation or immigration have to do with the thread, it's off-topic discussion. At the end of the day Americans established a sovereign state and that state has borders - you don't get to enter it unless you're welcome and you have no inherent right to reside in the U.S. if you're not a citizen.


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## WildDog (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The argument of "land-grabbing" is a silly one as Native Americans, by and large, had no concept of land ownership. There were no countries that the colonisers "invaded", they simply settled on the land and either bought it from the natives.


Ah i see that's why they coexist in peace.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Ah i see that's why they coexist in peace.


I also want to point out that Mexicans are not Native Americans - large sections of the population are Spaniards, they're intermixed with Native Americans just like Americans are. The entire continent is a melting pot, the majority of the population that lived there prior to colonisation died out due to disease which was an unfortunate consequence of contact with European pathogens.


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## kingfrost (Aug 27, 2018)

Memoir said:


> You do realize that "Native Americans" migrated here, right? It was a long ass time ago, but they aren't exactly more "native" to this land than the Europeans who migrated here.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Your kitchen knife wasn't designed to be a weapon and wouldn't even be effective as one in that context but knives are used to kill people so I don't see how you can even make that argument. It is a weapon. Its original purpose was to kill.

We don't regulate knives because there's not mass stabbings going on right now and certainly not with kitchen knives.

I also love the argument that guns are the only way to ensure freedom and then the same people argue that without guns people would just use bombs which invalidates their earlier point.


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## Priestiality (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> English major





Foxi4 said:


> here's why is how you should think about it





Foxi4 said:


> Ammendment




Ok.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Priestiality said:


> Ok.


That's quite funny. Well-spotted, I'll have to comb through my posts, for whatever reason the misspelling shows up in my predictive text on mobile. Foiled by Android yet again, thanks Google. As for your second quote, it's a perfectly correct sentence, but I added some extra quotation marks to improve legibility a little bit since it is quite hard to follow.


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## Pluupy (Aug 27, 2018)

Justinde75 said:


> Can anybody tell me any pros of the Government allowing guns?


To reduce excessive animal populations during their respective hunting seasons and to protect yourself.



Bungee_Cord said:


> America is a sh*tshow in general. If i were a foreigner i'd never move here.


I would rather live in usa than dominican republic. At least someone would hear you scream in usa when you're murdered. Guns are not easy to find in dominican republic outside of pistols. In the boonies, your best weapon is likely a machete.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The argument of "land-grabbing" is a silly one as Native Americans, by and large, had no concept of land ownership. There were no countries that the colonisers "invaded", they simply settled on the land and either bought it from the natives or fought for it.


I'd love for you to try to present that argument to someone living on a Native American reservation today


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't know why you'd make this a race thing all of a sudden, but even assuming that was the case, black people are statistically less likely to be shot by law enforcement in an engagement, they simply have more engagements with the police since black neighbourhoods are more strictly policed.


I wasn't specifically referring to blacks.  Say a group of Muslim-Americans had shown up in public armed to the teeth and they moved to occupy a federal building.  Do you really think any of them would still be alive today?  And would the media have danced around the term, or would they have been called terrorists outright?


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## WildDog (Aug 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'd love for you to try to present that argument to someone living on a Native American reservation today



What??? Reservation?? why they need to be protected like wild animals??
After all they are the best friend with the "US Native".....
Foxie4 seems he/she drank too much "American Dream" kool-aid


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'd love for you to try to present that argument to someone living on a Native American reservation today


Happily. I know it's a rough break, but America is the fruit of conquest, one party clearly won. Nobody who lives today has anything to do with that.


Xzi said:


> I wasn't specifically referring to blacks.  Say a group of Muslim-Americans had shown up in public armed to the teeth and they moved to occupy a federal building.  Do you really think any of them would still be alive today?  And would the media have danced around the term, or would they have been called terrorists outright?


It depends on why they're there and whether or not they posed a threat to anyone besides themselves. The Waco siege taught the federal government that it's generally not a good idea to run in guns blazing.



WildDog said:


> What??? Reservation?? why they need to be protected like wild animals??
> After all they are the best friend with the "US Native".....
> Foxie4 seems he/she drank too much "American Dream" kool-aid


I have an insatiable thirst for freedom which may result in me being insensitive at times.


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## WildDog (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I have an insatiable thirst for freedom which may result in me being insensitive at times.


Freedom and the US?? ahaha yes it's clear you took too much "American Dream" Kool Aid.  But hey move to the US and enjoy being part of the only country with Freedom.


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## 8BitWonder (Aug 27, 2018)

kingfrost said:


> ...
> I also love the argument that guns are the only way to ensure freedom and then the same people argue that without guns people would just use bombs which invalidates their earlier point.


Guns are the only way people could realistically protect themselves against a tyranny or an unjust shift in government, as impossibly unlikely as those seem.

I'd probably go as far as to say we'll collapse as a nation before any tyranny could ever happen.
But still, if you disarm the entire populace there would be nothing they could do against armed forces ordered by said tyrant or group.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> It depends on why they're there and whether or not they posed a threat to anyone besides themselves.


I seriously doubt that it does matter, they would immediately be perceived as being a larger threat because of their skin color.  If you ever see a black or Muslim or Latino group doing something like this, chances are they've fully prepared themselves to die going into it.  They wouldn't have the same sense of entitlement or delusions of grandeur that the Bundy gang did.

Regardless, the whole event was unfiltered stupidity.  It's akin to burning down a public library because you don't like the lines at the DMV.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I seriously doubt that it does matter, they would immediately be perceived as being a larger threat because of their skin color.  If you ever see a black or Muslim or Latino group doing something like this, chances are they've fully prepared themselves to die going into it.  They wouldn't have the same sense of entitlement or delusions of grandeur that the Bundy gang did.
> 
> Regardless, the whole event was unfiltered stupidity.  It's akin to burning down a public library because you don't like the lines at the DMV.


It also worked, so there's that. I don't know what your argument is. You were doubting the idea of an effective armed rebellion, I showed you an armed rebellion, you're unhappy with the example - what is it that you want, exactly?


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## guily6669 (Aug 27, 2018)

I had previously seen this on TV.

Sad emo kids giving bad reputation again, I bet news like games are bad and turn kids into killers will pop up again.

Which is stupid, psychopaths are the ones that kill ppl but lot of stupid brains paint games as the reason and not the persons with brain damage in first place...


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> It also worked, so there's that. I don't know what your argument is. You were doubting the idea of am armed rebellion, I showed you an armed rebellion, you're unhappy with the example - what is it that you want, exactly?


Armed rebellion isn't occupying a single federal building, cowering in a little corner of the country, and begging people to send you supplies.  There were no policy changes as a result of this, nor was the government overthrown.  This again demonstrates the ability to easily terrorize your local community with guns, but it doesn't demonstrate the type of will and strategy needed to truly push back against tyranny.  I'm 100% sure that the Bundy gang doesn't give a shit about constitutional violations as long as they occur under a Republican president/government.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Freedom and the US?? ahaha yes it's clear you took too much "American Dream" Kool Aid.  But hey move to the US and enjoy being part of the only country with Freedom.


I'd love to, but I like the climate here, plus this is where my love lives, so I wouldn't move anywhere else, even for all the guns in the world. Maybe in the future - retirement in the states sounds good.



Xzi said:


> Armed rebellion isn't occupying a single federal building, cowering in a little corner of the country, and begging people to send you supplies.  There were no policy changes as a result of this, nor was the government overthrown.  This again demonstrates the ability to easily terrorize your local community with guns, but it doesn't demonstrate the type of will and strategy needed to truly push back against tyranny.  I'm 100% sure that the Bundy gang doesn't give a shit about constitutional violations as long as they occur under a Republican president/government.


That's fine, you can have an opinion. Ultimately they succeeded in all of their stated goals.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> That's fine, you can have an opinion. Ultimately they succeeded in all of their stated goals.


Right, and their stated goals had nothing to do with armed rebellion against tyranny.  It was about their own ego and wealth, the same motivations that have caused so many problems in government in the first place.  In that sense, it was a good way to show solidarity with tyranny.


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## PalindromicBreadLoaf (Aug 27, 2018)

Well that’s absolutely terrible. I heard about it in my World Studies class today, we whatched this exact video too. ‘Tis to sad that someone would have the mindset to do this.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Right, and their stated goals had nothing to do with armed rebellion against tyranny.  It was about their own ego and wealth, the same motivations that have caused so many problems in government in the first place.  In that sense, it was a good way to show solidarity with tyranny.


The whole debacle was about grazing cattle on state-owned land, something farmers were allowed to do for generations, or centuries if you look at the big picture. It had nothing to do with ego. It had everything to do with a ridiculous back payment request issued by the government.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> The whole debacle was about grazing cattle on state-owned land, as they have been for generations, or centuries if you look at the big picture. It had nothing to do with ego.


I'm aware.  In other words, they were using state-owned land to enrich themselves because they let their own land go to shit.  They were stealing from taxpayers, then got mad when they were finally held accountable for it.  That has everything to do with ego and greed.  It's the same type of reaction a child will give you when pointing out that they've done something wrong.

"I've been breaking the law for decades so I should be able to keep doing it" is not a valid argument.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I'm aware.  In other words, they were using state-owned land to enrich themselves because they let their own land go to shit.  They were stealing from taxpayers, then got mad when they were finally held accountable for it.  That has everything to do with ego and greed.  It's the same type of reaction a child will give you when pointing out that they've done something wrong.


Not exactly. BLM doubled the conservation area which now was supposed to include the allotment in question. As a sign of defiance Bundy refused to renew his grazing permit (1993) which until then he was happy to pay. Mounting a conservation effort on the allotment in question would greatly diminish his ability to operate as a cattle rancher. In response BLM wanted to charge him back payments in excess of a million dollars and seized his cattle which were "trespassing" on land that until 5 minutes ago was perfectly suitable for grazing. The grass is there, it costs you as a taxpayer absolutely nothing, I reject the premise that Bundy was taking advantage of taxpayer money *or* the premise that the state has a claim of ownership on grass in the middle of Nevada, although legal scholars disagree. As far as I'm concerned the land belongs to the people unless it is expressly private property, but this is a whole different argument that has nothing to do with the shooting. It was an armed act of defiance against the federal government that was successful, that's the only reason why it was brought up, your opinion of the Bundies is irrelevant.


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Not exactly. BLM doubled the conservation area which now was supposed to include the allotment in question.


Well which is it?  Was he breaking the law for decades or was it a recent, sudden change?  Everything I've read on the matter suggests the former, that they knew it wasn't land that belonged to them from the start.



Foxi4 said:


> It was an armed act of defiance against the federal government that was successful, that's the only reason why it was brought up, your opinion of the Bundies is irrelevant.


It's not a good example of armed rebellion, because again, it resulted in no policy or governmental changes whatsoever.  They successfully fed their own selfish ego and wealth, but that's absolutely all.  And if not for (likely purposeful) incompetence on the prosecution's behalf, they'd be in jail right now where they belong.  In other words, their big "success" was breaking the law and facing no consequences; they were "successful" in the same way OJ Simpson was.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 27, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Well which is it?  Was he breaking the law for decades or was it a recent, sudden change?  Everything I've read on the matter suggests the former, that they knew it wasn't land that belonged to them from the start.
> 
> It's not a good example of armed rebellion, because again, it resulted in no policy or governmental changes whatsoever.  They successfully fed their own selfish ego and wealth, but that's absolutely all.  And if not for (likely purposeful) incompetence on the prosecution's behalf, they'd be in jail right now where they belong.  In other words, their big "success" was breaking the law and facing no consequences; they were "successful" in the same way OJ Simpson was.


Okay. I'll explain this one more time and we'll leave it there because it's steering the conversation off-topic. The Bundies believe that they are entitled to graze their cattle on state-owned land as any land that is "owned" by the state is effectively public, not to mention that they reject the notion of state-owned land to begin with. The new conservation plan would make it impossible for them to graze their cattle on land that they were previously permitted to use, as per their permit. They refused to go along with the plan and did not renew their permit as an act of defiance. They believed that their right to utilise public land was infringed upon by the state, which they perceived as an act of state tyranny. The situation ended in an armed stand-off during which they defended what they believed were their rights and the government backed down. This is the definition of armed rebellion and civil disobedience. Rightly or wrongly the Bundies defended what they perceived as their rights, but this is not a thread about the Bundies. I don't support or disavow their actions, I have no opinion on the matter, I was merely citing a case which fits the criteria of armed citizens defending themselves from what they perceived as tyrannical government encroachment. Whether they're right or wrong, likable or not, or even widely supported or not is immaterial to the subject.


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## Joom (Aug 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Sure you can, you arrest the private seller as an accomplice to the crime if their gun was used in one and they didn't administer a full background check.


Again, there's absolutely no way to enforce this. Not everyone has the resources nor the capability to do such a check, nor are they mind readers. Car manufacturers aren't held accountable for vehicular manslaughter cases, so why should gun sellers be if they're operating within the law? There are plenty of states that don't enforce anything on private sellers because it's redundant. Also, you might find this relevant article interesting.

https://www-baltimoresun-com.cdn.am...cksonville-david-katz-08272018-story,amp.html


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## Xzi (Aug 27, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Okay. I'll explain this one more time and we'll leave it there because it's steering the conversation off-topic. The Bundies believe that they are entitled to graze their cattle on state-owned land as any land that is "owned" by the state is effectively public, not to mention that they reject the notion of state-owned land to begin with. The new conservation plan would make it impossible for them to graze their cattle on land that they were previously permitted to use, as per their permit. They refused to go along with the plan and did not renew their permit as an act of defiance. They believed that their right to utilise public land was infringed upon by the state, which they perceived as an act of state tyranny. The situation ended in an armed stand-off during which they defended what they believed were their rights and the government backed down. This is the definition of armed rebellion and civil disobedience. Rightly or wrongly the Bundies defended what they perceived as their rights, but this is not a thread about the Bundies. I don't support or disavow their actions, I have no opinion on the matter, I was merely citing a case which fits the criteria of armed citizens defending themselves from what they perceived as tyrannical government encroachment. Whether they're right or wrong, likable or not, or even widely supported or not is immaterial to the subject.


I'm willing to cede that it was _technically_ an armed rebellion, but for the purposes of petty, selfish shit.  If they wanted to make a real difference for people other than themselves, they could be doing that by taking a stand right now, as Trump's ridiculous tariffs have negatively impacted _all_ US farming.  Yet unsurprisingly there's not a peep from the Bundy clan.  This is why I know that true, wide-scale rebellion will never happen.  The majority of the 2A crowd is too dumb to see through to the real problems in America, and too shortsighted/selfish to fight against anything that doesn't impact them personally and directly.  They also treat politics like cheering for a sports team, which is why they completely ignored it when Trump became the first president to state openly that he wanted to seize guns without due process.


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## Sicsuicide (Aug 28, 2018)

snails1221 said:


> I visit family in Florida twice a year and it's not scary whatsoever. I guess it just depends on what part you're in.



It's no different from anywhere else in the world you got the good places and the bad places.
The problem is televised news never shows anything good.
It's like a highlight reel for violence in the us


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 28, 2018)

Joom said:


> Again, there's absolutely no way to enforce this. Not everyone has the resources nor the capability to do such a check, nor are they mind readers. Car manufacturers aren't held accountable for vehicular manslaughter cases, so why should gun sellers be if they're operating within the law? There are plenty of states that don't enforce anything on private sellers because it's redundant. Also, you might find this relevant article interesting.
> 
> https://www-baltimoresun-com.cdn.am...cksonville-david-katz-08272018-story,amp.html


Sure you can, if you don't have the resources you go to an intermediary who does and assumes responsibility from there on out. And if you choose not to do that, you have to be able to produce evidence that you took reasonable measures to check, for instance, arrest records

Those changes alone would go miles in closing the gun show loophole, and it could even be argued that it would aid in fighting the black market trade as well


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## bodefuceta (Aug 28, 2018)

His reddit is "ravenchamps", anti-trump and on mental prescription drugs as usual.


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## Xzi (Aug 28, 2018)

Sicsuicide said:


> It's no different from anywhere else in the world you got the good places and the bad places.
> The problem is televised news never shows anything good.
> It's like a highlight reel for violence in the us


To be fair, televised news always has fluff pieces and current events too, it just so happens that so many current events tend to be gun murders in the US.  For 2016, The US is actually top of the list among all countries when it comes to what are classified as gun suicides.  We're sixteenth in gun murders per 100,000 citizens.  Which sounds pretty good until you realize that countries like Nicaragua, Barbados, Ukraine, and Turkey all have lower gun murder rates.  Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

So overall I'd say we're simply a nation obsessed by guns and violence, unfortunately.  See: Tool's Vicarious.


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## Zyvyn (Aug 28, 2018)

I heard this live that is one of the worst things I have ever heard people screaming scared for there lives


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## Deleted User (Aug 28, 2018)

This is what, the 3rd recent Jacksonville shooting? I recall one of them being a guy that people outwardly hated on their local news and were happy he went on a spree to justify his death. Social pressure out there must be hellishly intense.


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## Taleweaver (Aug 28, 2018)

Just sending my condoleances.


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## WildDog (Aug 28, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Happily. I know it's a rough break, but America is the fruit of conquest, one party clearly won. Nobody who lives today has anything to do with that.


Wait but didn't you say that the real natives americans didn't have a notion of "this is mine not yours"? and that the settlers went there peaceful and made a country out of land that the natives didn't want??
Now all the sudden is a conquest? maybe it was always a conquest.  Stop drinking the Kool aid for a second, it was a genocide, most of the natives were murdered because they wanted their land.


Foxi4 said:


> I'd love to, but I like the climate here, plus this is where my love lives, so I wouldn't move anywhere else, even for all the guns in the world. Maybe in the future - retirement in the states sounds good.


Now i see, it's about guns, for what you said, in your country you need to be friend a police officer and bribe him. That's a shame... 
But let me tell you something, that may be the case in Poland.. In other parts of the world you can own guns if you want. Hell you don't even need to leave Europe to enjoy that freedom.
I been using guns since i was 11, i was able to buy my own weapons since i was 18... Never i had to give a reasson why i want one, neither i need a excuse like "but but but if a tyrant rise". I was able to get them, because i'm a free citizen and not a subject. I think here in the Netherlands you need to be part of gun club, so people here can get them too if they want.
But yes i guess if you are from a country with less freedom than the US and drink too much "American Dream" Kool Aid, then yes the US will be the Land of Free(of course you have to pay first the IRS, then you get some freedom xD).
Also, the well regulated milita and other crap from the 2A worked in 1776...  What do you think  bubba and billy bob with their Ar15 and smalls arms can do against a company of Tanks?
Tyrants today don't use the force at once, they slowly take you away rights till you are a subject.
In the end, if people wants to own guns, they should be able to, after they pass a basic safety and a check out that they are not insane.


But like you said, this is going off topic and nothing of this has to do with the shooting.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Wait but didn't you say that the real natives americans didn't have a notion of "this is mine not yours"? and that the settlers went there peaceful and made a country out of land that the natives didn't want??
> Now all the sudden is a conquest? maybe it was always a conquest.  Stop drinking the Kool aid for a second, it was a genocide, most of the natives were murdered because they wanted their land.


You realise that it can be both, right? Native Americans had no concept of land ownership - they still don't. I also never said it was always peaceful, I said that land was either purchased or fought over and the colonisers clearly won - that's conquest. There was no independent state in place before the colonisers established one, there were tribes with territories, which is not quite the same thing.


> Now i see, it's about guns, for what you said, in your country you need to be friend a police officer and bribe him. That's a shame...
> But let me tell you something, that may be the case in Poland.. In other parts of the world you can own guns if you want. Hell you don't even need to leave Europe to enjoy that freedom.
> I been using guns since i was 11, i was able to buy my own weapons since i was 18... Never i had to give a reasson why i want one, neither i need a excuse like "but but but if a tyrant rise". I was able to get them, because i'm a free citizen and not a subject. I think here in the Netherlands you need to be part of gun club, so people here can get them too if they want.
> But yes i guess if you are from a country with less freedom than the US and drink too much "American Dream" Kool Aid, then yes the US will be the Land of Free(of course you have to pay first the IRS, then you get some freedom xD).
> ...


I don't live in Poland. This entire rant was based on an imaginary premise. It's quite funny that you criticise the IRS when you live in the Netherlands, a country with a 36.55%-51.95% income tax, a VAT of up to 21% to boot, a literal *wealth tax* at 30% and more. You pay so much for just existing that you're basically a slave, but I'm the one drinking Kool-aid. I can't imagine anything more fair than taxing people for making money with income tax, taxing them *again* if they choose to spend the money post-tax *or* taxing them anyways if they choose to save instead. You're literally getting taxed twice on the same income regardless of what you do with your money.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 28, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> It's quite funny that you criticise the IRS when you live in the Netherlands, a country with a 36.55%-51.95% income tax, a VAT of up to 21% to boot, a literal *wealth tax* at 30% and more. You pay so much for just existing that you're basically a slave, but I'm the one drinking Kool-aid. I can't imagine anything more fair than taxing people for making money with income tax, taxing them *again* if they choose to spend the money post-tax *or* taxing them anyways if they choose to save instead. You're literally getting taxed twice on the same income regardless of what you do with your money.


Except that in the Netherlands, it's people who can afford to be taxed while still being able to make money that are being taxed heaviest, rather than placing a disproportionate burden on the lower class while the upper classes get tax breaks. Plus, in the situation of Netherlands' taxing vs the IRS, don't they straight up just hand you a receipt and say "here, check this, if it's wrong please correct it so our records are in order" as opposed to our convoluted system of "you do your own taxes even though we already have a Federal-Level department that calculates them if something looks fishy anyway, and if we audit you and you've messed ANYTHING up then you've committed tax fraud and we'll fine you and/or send you to prison"?

Either way, though, this discussion is SO FAR removed from the original source topic at this point, and I don't know about you but I'd say that it's rather irreverent to argue about income tax over the metaphorical bodies of three innocent victims


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## WildDog (Aug 28, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> You realise that it can be both, right? Native Americans had no concept of land ownership - they still don't. I also never said it was always peaceful, I said that land was either purchased or fought over and the colonisers clearly won - that's conquest. There was no independent state in place before the colonisers established one, there were tribes with territories, which is not quite the same thing..


So they had not concept of land ownership but they had divition among tribes...So each piece of land did belong to a tribe... Yet they did not know what land ownership was.... Ok.



Foxi4 said:


> You live in the Netherlands, a country with a 36.55%-51.95% income tax, a VAT of up to 21% to boot, a literal *wealth tax* at 30% and more. You pay so much for just existing that you're basically a slave.


Yes, i'm such a slave with the easy system that was set up by the government. Trust me i pay my taxes with a smile. I can see what they do with it, plusi gey paid plenty thar i can afford whatever i want, best part i don't have to worry about a wacko going in a killing spree because he lost... Such a slave


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Aug 28, 2018)

More info about the shooter available here: https://www.thejc.com/news/us-news/...ills-two-wounds-ten-in-mass-shooting-1.468946

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



WildDog said:


> Wait but didn't you say that the real natives americans didn't have a notion of "this is mine not yours"? and that the settlers went there peaceful and made a country out of land that the natives didn't want??



If you think European-Americans were the ones who murdered Native Americans then you really don't know history, do you. Native Americans back in those days were murdering each other to have _more_ land for themselves instead of the mentality of; _it's our land and we gotta stick together against any foreigners who want to take it away from us_.

Yeah, European-Americans did murder them but so did Native Americans themselves too.



WildDog said:


> Stop drinking the Kool aid for a second



That's rich considering you wrote a lot of nonsensical stuff.



WildDog said:


> Hell you don't even need to leave Europe to enjoy that freedom.



Well, that depends on which country you're referring to. European countries non-EU are more like that, European countries part of the EU have shackles they need to abide by. And thus, it's no surprise a lot are anti-EU nowadays and want their countries to exit the EU.



WildDog said:


> US will be the Land of Free



It used to be at one point.



WildDog said:


> real natives americans



There's only one kind of Native Americans and that are the Native Indians which were and are the genuine population of US. Saying "real native" is rather oxymoron.



WildDog said:


> I been using guns since i was 11



Oh, wow. So impressive.



WildDog said:


> So each piece of land did belong to a tribe... Yet they did not know what land ownership was


You basically answered your own question and still can't figure it out.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

https://www.nationalreview.com/news...ban-for-those-convicted-of-domestic-violence/

It begins.


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## Foxi4 (Aug 28, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Except that in the Netherlands, it's people who can afford to be taxed while still being able to make money that are being taxed heaviest, rather than placing a disproportionate burden on the lower class while the upper classes get tax breaks. Plus, in the situation of Netherlands' taxing vs the IRS, don't they straight up just hand you a receipt and say "here, check this, if it's wrong please correct it so our records are in order" as opposed to our convoluted system of "you do your own taxes even though we already have a Federal-Level department that calculates them if something looks fishy anyway, and if we audit you and you've messed ANYTHING up then you've committed tax fraud and we'll fine you and/or send you to prison"?
> 
> Either way, though, this discussion is SO FAR removed from the original source topic at this point, and I don't know about you but I'd say that it's rather irreverent to argue about income tax over the metaphorical bodies of three innocent victims





WildDog said:


> So they had not concept of land ownership but they had divition among tribes...So each piece of land did belong to a tribe... Yet they did not know what land ownership was.... Ok.
> 
> 
> Yes, i'm such a slave with the easy system that was set up by the government. Trust me i pay my taxes with a smile. I can see what they do with it, plusi gey paid plenty thar i can afford whatever i want, best part i don't have to worry about a wacko going in a killing spree because he lost... Such a slave


Depending on the level of income and expenses you might be working for free for the majority of the year. I don't know how you call that other than slavery. I'm happy that your slave masters feed and clothe you, but you're still a slave. You're comfortable in your captivity, but ultimately you're a serf working for your lords *for free* for a significant portion of the year, often more than half of it. That's sad.

As for Native Americans, they believed that they're one with the land and belong to the land, but had no concept of private property, property rights or land ownership. This is a well-documented fact, I'm not sure what's controversial about it. Residing on a territory and claiming ownership of land are not the same thing. No culture on American soil, North or South, has established an independent and recognisable nation state - besides a few notable exceptions like the Aztecs or Mayans etc., but that's neither here nor there as all of them died out.

With all that said, @TotalInsanity4 is right - we should return to the discussion at hand. We can discuss freedom, or lack of thereof, over private messages if you'd like.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 28, 2018)

WildDog said:


> So they had not concept of land ownership but they had divition among tribes...So each piece of land did belong to a tribe... Yet they did not know what land ownership was.... Ok.


So to Foxi's credit he's kind of right but is severely misinformed as to how the Native Americans viewed land overall. It's true that they have no concept of land ownership, but that's due to the fact that they believed NO ONE should have "ownership" of land, due to the fact that it's a natural resource (in that sense I guess you could say that they, as a collective, were one of the only true functional communist society in history). The early settlers knew this and also knew that they would never be able to fairly take land from them due to that, and they didn't want to share, because of religious conquest reasons. So because of that, they wrote up contracts that either the Crown or the US government would recognize as legally binding (depending on when in the timeline we're looking) and passed them off as peace treaties, while in the "fine print" they were in fact bills of sale. This worked due to the fact that the Natives spoke very little English and read virtually none. So after that, as we all learned in history class, tribes kept getting pushed to the west, yadda yadda yadda, until the government set up reservations that are jokes compared to the amount of land that Natives were allowed to freely occupy before. Nowadays, those reservations are basically recognized as separate localized governments with their own laws, and various tribes are super possessive of those reservations because they don't want to lose any more land

Source: I have a friend with Native heritage that's a member of the Cherokee Nation


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## jeffyTheHomebrewer (Aug 29, 2018)

Ric-Are-Those said:


> You know life is just great when you wake up to complain that August is almost over and there's no CFW in sight and you see this on the front page.
> 
> A meteor needs to take us and soon


Complain that august is almost over? I'm glad that it's almost over! it's been too hot all month!


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## Jack Daniels (Aug 30, 2018)

chrisrlink said:


> don't forget of political convictions (because trump is in power some people think it's ok to mass murder muslims or mexicans)


you're right, there's an endless list to expand...
but still the point is: shootouts will be there, you can minimize chances by making it harder to get the supplies needed or by better (mental) health control...


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