# The U.S. is more dangerously divided than any other wealthy democracy. Is there a way back from the brink? (Yascha Mounk)



## Creamu (Jun 12, 2022)

'[...]

Drawing on the Variety of Democracies (V-Dem) data set, published by an independent research institute in Sweden that covers 202 countries and goes back more than two centuries, its authors assess to what degree each country suffers from “pernicious” levels of partisan polarization. Do their citizens have such hostile views of opponents that they’re willing to act in ways that put democracy itself at risk?

The authors’ conclusion is startling: No established democracy in recent history has been as deeply polarized as the U.S. “For the United States,” Jennifer McCoy, the lead author of the study and a political-science professor at Georgia State University, told me in an interview, “I am very pessimistic.”

On virtually every continent, supporters of rival political camps are more likely to interact in hostile ways than they did a few decades ago. According to the Carnegie study, “us versus them polarization” has been increasing since 2005. McCoy and her colleagues don’t try to explain the causes, though the rise of social media is obviously a contributing factor.

[...]

Among countries whose political institutions have been relatively stable, the pace and extent of American polarization is an eye-popping outlier. “Very few countries classified as full liberal democracies have ever reached pernicious levels,” the study’s authors write. “The United States stands out today as the only wealthy Western democracy with persistent levels of pernicious polarization.” When I spoke by phone with McCoy, she was even more categorical: “The situation of the United States is unique.”

To live in a country where political disagreements turn into personal vendettas is no fun, but a growing body of research reveals more systemic effects. Pernicious polarization makes good-faith efforts to tackle social problems such as public-health crises harder and bad-faith efforts to turn them into political gain easier. At worst, an erosion of trust in democratic norms and political institutions can end up as political violence and civil war.

[...]

Unfortunately, the data in the Carnegie study do not offer much cause for optimism. About half of the time a country experienced serious polarization since 1900, mutual distrust and hatred turned into a permanent condition. Although political tensions waxed and waned, these countries never fell below the level of pernicious polarization for any extended period. And many countries never recovered. Once pernicious polarization has set in, it stays.

[...]

The fundamental premise of democracy is that citizens agree to be ruled by whoever wins an election. But if many citizens come to believe that letting the other side rule poses a threat to their well-being, even their lives, they may no longer be willing to accept the outcome of an election they lose. This makes it easier for demagogues to attract fervent supporters, and even to turn them against a country’s political institutions. The January 6, 2021, assault on the Capitol is just such a symptom of the malaise.

[...]

In many of the countries that have experienced pernicious polarization, partisan political identity aligns almost perfectly with visible markers of ethnic or religious identity. In Lebanon and Kenya, for example, it is enough to see or hear a person’s name to know which way they’re likely to vote. When polarization spikes in these places, supporters and opponents of a political candidate don’t just yell at each other; they withdraw from all social cooperation, and their animosity grows vengeful and deadly.

[...]

Soothsayers of doom are in demand for a reason. American partisan polarization has, without a doubt, reached a perilous level. But America’s comparative competence at managing its ethnic and religious diversity, which has so far ensured that partisan political identities do not neatly map onto demographic ones, could be a saving grace.

We urgently need visionary leaders and institutional reforms that can lower the stakes of political competition. Imagining what a depolarization of American politics would look like is not too difficult. The only problem is that America’s political partisans may already hate one another too much to take the steps necessary to avoid catastrophe.'

-Yascha Mounk







https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...crat-republican-partisan-polarization/629925/


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## Hanafuda (Jun 12, 2022)

That's pretty rich coming from The Atlantic. They're as guilty of participating in this and accelerating it as anyone.


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## Creamu (Jun 12, 2022)

Hanafuda said:


> That's pretty rich coming from The Atlantic. They're as guilty of participating in this and accelerating it as anyone.


Yes, I agree. Good observation.


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## Lacius (Jun 12, 2022)

When one party in this country moves so far to the right that they reject democracy in favor of authoritarianism, I would guess that's the problem.


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## Creamu (Jun 15, 2022)

Lacius said:


> When one party in this country moves so far to the right that they reject democracy in favor of authoritarianism, I would guess that's the problem.


What would you propose as a solution?


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## SRKTiberious (Jun 30, 2022)

Lacius said:


> When one party in this country moves so far to the right that they reject democracy in favor of authoritarianism, I would guess that's the problem.


Blaming the reaction to the problem again, I see.

Unlike you, *normal* people don't exactly think that you should be able to flash little kids in the street with police protection or murder and dismember children for the sole 'crime' of gestating.


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## Lacius (Jun 30, 2022)

SRKTiberious said:


> Unlike you, *normal* people don't exactly think that you should be able to flash little kids in the street with police protection or murder and dismember children for the sole 'crime' of gestating.


A majority of people in the United States are in favor of LGBTQ rights, and a majority of people in the United States are in favor of women having bodily autonomy rights. If you aren't in favor of these things, then by some definitions, you're not the "normal" one.

It should go without saying, but I'm unaware of any political party in the US in favor of "flashing kids" or "murdering and dismembering children."



SRKTiberious said:


> Blaming the reaction to the problem again, I see.


I like that you're trying to defend, not deny, that the political right in this country has become authoritarian and anti-democratic. Thank you for at least being honest.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 15, 2022)

Lacius said:


> When one party in this country moves so far to the right that they reject democracy in favor of authoritarianism, I would guess that's the problem.


Imagine thinking that sending an issue back to the states to be voted on by the representatives closest to the people as being authoritarian. Talk about emotional damage here.


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## Creamu (Jul 20, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Imagine thinking that sending an issue back to the states to be voted on by the representatives closest to the people as being authoritarian. Talk about emotional damage here.


I'm not sure that is the implication here. Don't you think that democracy has been falling out of favor in general?


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 21, 2022)

Creamu said:


> I'm not sure that is the implication here. Don't you think that democracy has been falling out of favor in general?


I think democracy fell out of favor when the Constitution was ratified, creating our republic. The republic has fallen out of favor with the left over the years because it blocks them from implementing their globalist agenda.


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## Creamu (Jul 27, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I think democracy fell out of favor when the Constitution was ratified, creating our republic. The republic has fallen out of favor with the left over the years because it blocks them from implementing their globalist agenda.


So your perspective is that the USA is not democratic but authoritarian left?


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## Xzi (Jul 27, 2022)

Creamu said:


> So your perspective is that the USA is not democratic but authoritarian left?


We'd have a lot more dead landlords if that was the case.  Instead we don't even have universal healthcare like every other developed nation, let alone a leftist political party to vote for.  As a correction, the US is a _democratic_ republic, and the fact that TraderPat chooses to omit the first half just further proves that Republicans hate democracy. What they really want is oligarchy or dictatorship.


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## Creamu (Jul 27, 2022)

Xzi said:


> We'd have a lot more dead landlords if that was the case.


Because of the riots?


Xzi said:


> Instead we don't even have universal healthcare like every other developed nation, let alone a leftist political party to vote for.


What I don't understand is why open borders and universal healthcare are both associated with leftism? How can you advocate for both at the same time. It's very strange to me.


Xzi said:


> As a correction, the US is a _democratic_ republic, and the fact that TraderPat chooses to omit the first half just further proves that Republicans hate democracy. What they really want is oligarchy or dictatorship.





Creamu said:


> 'Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most
> Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the
> US.5,6 At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and
> Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”
> ...


https://gbatemp.net/threads/50-expe...gones-tori-b-powell-multiple-articles.616062/


It seems like 1/5 of Republicans don't believe in democracy yes, but alot of democrats (1/10) are also against the idea. With 15% of the populus you can overthrow a government (hypothetically speaking) if this segment collectivises and has will power.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 27, 2022)

Creamu said:


> So your perspective is that the USA is not democratic but authoritarian left?


The USA was founded as a republic. That's what all the Founders called it. They understood the dangers of a pure democracy, so they designed checks and balances to prevent tyranny of the majority.

As time passed, we as a country moved away from the Constitution. Courts started making rights out of whole cloth, the federal government took power away from the states and Congress gleefully gave their power to the administrative state. We are in the process of reversing that trend and giving power back to the states and the people where it belongs. That is why the left is all over the internet seething and crying. They crave a centralized authoritarian government.


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## Creamu (Jul 27, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The USA was founded as a republic. That's what all the Founders called it. They understood the dangers of a pure democracy, so they designed checks and balances to prevent tyranny of the majority.
> 
> As time passed, we as a country moved away from the Constitution. Courts started making rights out of whole cloth, the federal government took power away from the states and Congress gleefully gave their power to the administrative state. We are in the process of reversing that trend and giving power back to the states and the people where it belongs. That is why the left is all over the internet seething and crying. They crave a centralized authoritarian government.


Very interesting. This question has occupied my mind for a while now, so much so that I have made this thread about the redistribution of power:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/roe-v-wade-solve-et-coagula-usa-meta-analysis.615114/

In a different thread I have put together articles that indicate that the populus is increasingly loosing believe in the current ruling class:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/50-expe...gones-tori-b-powell-multiple-articles.616062/

What is the idea here? I think they want to decentralize power, so it is harder to take the whole thing over in one move (hypothetically speaking). While they do this they want the single states so interdependent and disfuncional that they cannot secede.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 27, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Very interesting. This question has occupied my mind for a while now, so much so that I have made this thread about the redistribution of power:
> https://gbatemp.net/threads/roe-v-wade-solve-et-coagula-usa-meta-analysis.615114/
> 
> In a different thread I have put together articles that indicate that the populus is increasingly loosing believe in the current ruling class:
> ...


The populous is losing faith in the ruling class because the ruling class and their sycophants in the media, Hollywood and academia have shown themselves to be against the people. I used to think they were just inept, but now I know all of this is on purpose. They tell us what they are gonna do and we're shocked when it actually happens. I'm not surprised anymore.

For decades, the "elite" have been talking about depopulation and we just shrugged it off. Now we have governments limiting fertilizer for farmers. We see how well that went in Sri Lanka when people started starving and now Trudeau is wanting to do the same in Canada and we see the farmers in the Netherlands fighting back. We are finally taking what the "elites" say at face value because we see now that they are serious.


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## Creamu (Jul 27, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The populous is losing faith in the ruling class because the ruling class and their sycophants in the media, Hollywood and academia have shown themselves to be against the people. I used to think they were just inept, but now I know all of this is on purpose. They tell us what they are gonna do and we're shocked when it actually happens. I'm not surprised anymore.
> 
> For decades, the "elite" have been talking about depopulation and we just shrugged it off. Now we have governments limiting fertilizer for farmers. We see how well that went in Sri Lanka when people started starving and now Trudeau is wanting to do the same in Canada and we see the farmers in the Netherlands fighting back. We are finally taking what the "elites" say at face value because we see now that they are serious.


Where do you see things moving within the coming 10 years. What would be a desirable outcome in your view, and what should be done to move in this direction?


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## SonowRaevius (Jul 28, 2022)

It only seemed like the US had together on the surface, but deep down there were problems and people causing those problems. 

The division is still the same as it was decades ago, and if anything the right now using their old  1950-1980's playbook: 
Call anyone that doesn't agree with you a socialist/communist
Call anyone of the LGBT+ community a pedophile/groomer. 
Call white people to arms and tell them that they are being replaced by minorities.
Try to declare the US a Christian state based on false Christian views and ignore anyone else's Freedom of Religion. 
Holding Rallies while donning white masks (ironic considering how many of the same people refused to wear a mask claiming "they couldn't breather") 
Tell your base their rights are being stripped away, while stripping other people of rights.

The only thing that is different now than then is that people aren't willing to put up with that and the right, being the bullies that they are, are trying to declare they are "under attack" or "these people are trying to divide the nation"  when in reality it is just people  who are tired of their bullshit and aren't taking things sitting down. Not to mention that ANYONE that disagrees with one thing from them is now "a leftist/liberal".


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## Creamu (Jul 28, 2022)

SonowRaevius said:


> It only seemed like the US had together on the surface, but deep down there were problems and people causing those problems.


I would argue, that this division is a device in the toolbox of the powerful to rule of a populus


SonowRaevius said:


> The division is still the same as it was decades ago, and if anything the right now using their old  1950-1980's playbook:


That it is interesting. From my reading they are going for a 1980s Ronald Reagan style script with Desantis next.


SonowRaevius said:


> Call anyone that doesn't agree with you a socialist/communist


How common is that?


SonowRaevius said:


> Call anyone of the LGBT+ community a pedophile/groomer.


To be fair, confronting children with sexualized themes is something that triggers defense mechanisms in many.


SonowRaevius said:


> Call white people to arms and tell them that they are being replaced by minorities.


A demographic change is happening throughout the whole western world simultaneously. How can this be explained without human will?


SonowRaevius said:


> Try to declare the US a Christian state based on false Christian views and ignore anyone else's Freedom of Religion.


I agree, the USA was never a christian project and it doesn't seem like it ever will be.


SonowRaevius said:


> Holding Rallies while donning white masks (ironic considering how many of the same people refused to wear a mask claiming "they couldn't breather")
> Tell your base their rights are being stripped away, while stripping other people of rights.
> 
> The only thing that is different now than then is that people aren't willing to put up with that and the right, being the bullies that they are, are trying to declare they are "under attack" or "these people are trying to divide the nation"  when in reality it is just people  who are tired of their bullshit and aren't taking things sitting down. Not to mention that ANYONE that disagrees with one thing from them is now "a leftist/liberal".


What would you suggest should be done with these people?


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## SonowRaevius (Jul 28, 2022)

Creamu said:


> How common is that?


Pretty frequent. It's rather annoying when you suggest even remotely anything, even moderate suggestion to thing only to be called a commie/socialist for it. 


Creamu said:


> To be fair, confronting children with sexualized themes is something that triggers defense mechanisms in many.


I can understand that, but there is a difference between attraction, love, and sex. The problem is some have an issue seperating those three. For instance, simply saying "Oh Timmy's dads are gay" is a lot different than "Timmy's dads like fuck each other".  Though I think having "sexual" in the title muddles things a bit too much there, even with Asexuality, which has no sex involved at all. 


Creamu said:


> A demographic change is happening throughout the whole western world simultaneously. How can this be explained without human will?


The thing is though, replacement would mean that those jobs were meant for certain people and not just whoever comes along. The people I am talking about in question think that all jobs where any minority is hired is a "Diversity Hire" and only got the job on the merit of them being a Minority and nothing more. That being said, demogaphic shifts are bound to happen when a society starts to become more equal and just, and view things as normal instead of "different", "abnormal", or "special". 



Creamu said:


> What would you suggest should be done with these people?


Nothing as it is what it is and you can't force people to change their minds suddenly on a subject, and will only encourage them to simply put on a mask for society itself.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Where do you see things moving within the coming 10 years. What would be a desirable outcome in your view, and what should be done to move in this direction?


Ideally, the federal government should be drastically reduced. Everything that is duplicated at the state and federal level should be eliminated at the federal level. We need to drastically reduce the authority and reach of the administrative state.

We must get off this fiat system. It boggles the mind that the same people who rail against big banks will vehemently defend the Federal Reserve, who has been failing at their primary job since day 1. 

We need to stop being the world's police. It's ridiculous that we have troops in so many different countries.

We need new trade deals. While we are sitting here practicing free trade, almost every other country, mostly our allies put tariffs on our goods. That is not fair to what is left of our manufacturing. The supply chain problems we are still experiencing would be solved by moving manufacturing back to the United States. I'd rather pay a little more for a product than not be able to purchase the product at all.

We need to go back to the states being where new ideas are tried. If they are successful, more states will follow. If ideas fail, it only affects that one state and everybody moves on. We are seeing the beginning of state legislatures asserting their constitutional authority now.

There are many other things that need fixing, but this would enable the fixes to be implemented. For this to happen, we need to come together as a country. The "elite" fear us being united. That is why they spend so much time and effort to keep dividing us. First by race, then income, then sexuality and on and on, and we still fall for it. I know we will come together even though there are some here who would disagree.


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## Xzi (Jul 28, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Because of the riots?


Because we'd have an auth-left leader like Mao who would have them executed.



Creamu said:


> What I don't understand is why open borders and universal healthcare are both associated with leftism? How can you advocate for both at the same time. It's very strange to me.


Lol, healthcare is already much cheaper in Mexico for one, to the extent that a lot of Americans cross the border to get medications/surgeries.  For another thing, as long as we allow corporations to exploit migrant workers, we're allowing everybody's wages and standard of living to be suppressed.  And lastly, cut 10% out of corporate welfare and/or our bloated military budget, we'd have no problem funding universal healthcare even with "open borders."  It's clearly not a problem for European nations, and many of them accept a lot more immigrants than the US, relative to their landmass.



Creamu said:


> It seems like 1/5 of Republicans don't believe in democracy yes, but alot of democrats (1/10) are also against the idea. With 15% of the populus you can overthrow a government (hypothetically speaking) if this segment collectivises and has will power.


Where did you get that idea?  It would take significantly more than 15% just to overcome local police, let alone the national guard or the military.  A lot of these people would also think differently if they were able to live in a more representative democracy with 8-10 major political parties.  The issue is that they lack representation in the two-party system.  Making it a one-party system as TraderPat wants would not fix anything, it would only ostracize a much larger portion of the population.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Because we'd have an auth-left leader like Mao who would have them executed.
> 
> 
> Lol, healthcare is already much cheaper in Mexico for one, to the extent that a lot of Americans cross the border to get medications/surgeries.  For another thing, as long as we allow corporations to exploit migrant workers, we're allowing everybody's wages and standard of living to be suppressed.  And lastly, cut 10% out of corporate welfare and/or our bloated military budget, we'd have no problem funding universal healthcare even with "open borders."  It's clearly not a problem for European nations, and many of them accept a lot more immigrants than the US, relative to their landmass.
> ...


We can't cut our military budget until we stop being the world's police. You can't  take the responsibility of the security of other countries, have unlimited social programs, and unlimited migration. Europe can do universal healthcare because we pay for their defense. Why is this such a hard concept for leftist to understand? I know you all can't be that stupid, right?

I understand that the Federal Reserve can just print money but we are already seeing the effects of that.

Where have I ever said I want one party rule? Be very specific. Give me a date/timestamp of my comment or stfu. The lies a few people on here say about me are pathetic.


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## Xzi (Jul 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> We can't cut our military budget until we stop being the world's police. You can't take the responsibility of the security of other countries, have unlimited social programs, and unlimited migration. Europe can do universal healthcare because we pay for their defense. Why is this such a hard concept for leftist to understand? I know you all can't be that stupid, right?


Absolute idiocy, almost every European nation has its own military, and several have recently decided to expand theirs following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.



TraderPatTX said:


> I understand that the Federal Reserve can just print money but we are already seeing the effects of that.


We're seeing a perfect storm of factors causing inflation, yes.  Not least among them however is simple corporate greed, profiteering is way up.



TraderPatTX said:


> Where have I ever said I want one party rule? Be very specific. Give me a date/timestamp of my comment or stfu. The lies a few people on here say about me are pathetic.


You want to take the vote away from the people and hand it to their state representatives instead.  And the only reason you want to do that is because republicans currently control more state legislatures.  You'd be singing a very different tune otherwise, that much is obvious.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Absolute idiocy, almost every European nation has its own military, and several have recently decided to expand theirs following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
> 
> 
> We're seeing a perfect storm of factors causing inflation, yes.  Not least among them however is simple corporate greed, profiteering is way up.
> ...


European countries expanded their military budgets from a tiny portion of their GDP to a small portion of their GDP.

Profits do not cause inflation. Excess dollars, which can only come from the Federal Reserve, causes inflation. Corporations are guilty of a lot of things, inflation isn't one them. Find another boogeyman.

Who do you think votes for state representatives, you dork? Did every leftist on this forum manage to graduate high school without taking a civics class? None of you even have a basic understanding of government structure in the US. All you have is accusing me of saying things I never said, or as it's more commonly referred to as outright lying.


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## Creamu (Jul 28, 2022)

SonowRaevius said:


> Pretty frequent. It's rather annoying when you suggest even remotely anything, even moderate suggestion to thing only to be called a commie/socialist for it.


That's interesting, since it is rather antiquated. Why do you think they are choosing to use this term? Do they get this from pundits? Is it something they use because they don't feel at liberty to say another term they truely mean or is this organic?


SonowRaevius said:


> I can understand that, but there is a difference between attraction, love, and sex. The problem is some have an issue seperating those three. For instance, simply saying "Oh Timmy's dads are gay" is a lot different than "Timmy's dads like fuck each other".


They wouldn't be categorised as gay if they loved eachother in a platonic way.


SonowRaevius said:


> Though I think having "sexual" in the title muddles things a bit too much there, even with Asexuality, which has no sex involved at all.


LGBT+ are quite explicitly about hedonistic sexual practice or identity, without this connection not much would be left.


SonowRaevius said:


> The thing is though, replacement would mean that those jobs were meant for certain people and not just whoever comes along. The people I am talking about in question think that all jobs where any minority is hired is a "Diversity Hire" and only got the job on the merit of them being a Minority and nothing more.


I think it goes much deeper than that. The european people of the world will cease to exist in any recognizeable way if their biospheres get repurposed as a breeding ground for the whole world population to breed in.


SonowRaevius said:


> That being said, demogaphic shifts are bound to happen when a society starts to become more equal and just, and view things as normal instead of "different", "abnormal", or "special".


How is it just if all european peoples countries are taken from them for this project. They have never voted for this.


TraderPatTX said:


> Ideally, the federal government should be drastically reduced. Everything that is duplicated at the state and federal level should be eliminated at the federal level. We need to drastically reduce the authority and reach of the administrative state.


How do you think would this improve the situation?


TraderPatTX said:


> We must get off this fiat system. It boggles the mind that the same people who rail against big banks will vehemently defend the Federal Reserve, who has been failing at their primary job since day 1.


Yes, the central value should be the labour of the people.


TraderPatTX said:


> We need to stop being the world's police. It's ridiculous that we have troops in so many different countries.


That's coming to an end anyway.


TraderPatTX said:


> We need new trade deals. While we are sitting here practicing free trade, almost every other country, mostly our allies put tariffs on our goods. That is not fair to what is left of our manufacturing. The supply chain problems we are still experiencing would be solved by moving manufacturing back to the United States. I'd rather pay a little more for a product than not be able to purchase the product at all.
> 
> We need to go back to the states being where new ideas are tried. If they are successful, more states will follow. If ideas fail, it only affects that one state and everybody moves on. We are seeing the beginning of state legislatures asserting their constitutional authority now.


Would you allow for freedom of association for states?


TraderPatTX said:


> There are many other things that need fixing, but this would enable the fixes to be implemented. For this to happen, we need to come together as a country. The "elite" fear us being united. That is why they spend so much time and effort to keep dividing us. First by race, then income, then sexuality and on and on, and we still fall for it. I know we will come together even though there are some here who would disagree.


I would argue that the 'diversity is our strengh' agenda is meant for this but in a different way. You can't just overcome race as if it is not a natural reality. So uniting on those grounds must happen yes, but I think there are limits how far this can go.


Xzi said:


> Because we'd have an auth-left leader like Mao who would have them executed.


I see your point. Do you believe BLM is a organic movement or one instructed by globalist plutocrats?


Xzi said:


> Lol, healthcare is already much cheaper in Mexico for one, to the extent that a lot of Americans cross the border to get medications/surgeries.


Does Mexico allow for immigration like the USA does?


Xzi said:


> For another thing, as long as we allow corporations to exploit migrant workers, we're allowing everybody's wages and standard of living to be suppressed.


Yes. Even if they don't exploit them, they function to put more pressure on wages. It is a cyncial thing.


Xzi said:


> And lastly, cut 10% out of corporate welfare and/or our bloated military budget, we'd have no problem funding universal healthcare even with "open borders."  It's clearly not a problem for European nations, and many of them accept a lot more immigrants than the US, relative to their landmass.


But if you have universal healthcare and let people from all around the world enter your country, you will attract people that will make you system collapse sooner or later.


Xzi said:


> Where did you get that idea?  It would take significantly more than 15% just to overcome local police, let alone the national guard or the military.


No, not really. If you have around 10% of a populus that is determined and united to overthrow the system, it's pretty much over. The way these people can disrupt the system you can't get under control by any means. The local police, will they be motivated to act when confronted with such a scenario? Same goes for national guard and military. This are not some robots you can program to do any job.


Xzi said:


> A lot of these people would also think differently if they were able to live in a more representative democracy with 8-10 major political parties.  The issue is that they lack representation in the two-party system.


It doesn't matter when the ruling class does whatever it wants regardless of which party is selected. It is just a bigger smokescreen.


Xzi said:


> Making it a one-party system as TraderPat wants would not fix anything, it would only ostracize a much larger portion of the population.


Maybe, but it would make very clear who is in charge and responsible. This was the downfall of the sowjet system.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Creamu said:


> That's interesting, since it is rather antiquated. Why do you think they are choosing to use this term? Do they get this from pundits? Is it something they use because they don't feel at liberty to say another term they truely mean or is this organic?
> 
> They wouldn't be categorised as gay if they loved eachother in a platonic way.
> 
> ...


It would improve the situation by eliminating bloat and redundancy, saving us trillions of dollars.

Peg the dollar to gold and eliminate the failing petrol dollar. Encourage people to save instead of going further in debt.

Freedom of association is a constitutional right, so yes.

The diversity movement is nothing but a fraud. They never advocate for diversity of thought. The people who advocate for diversity attack those who think outside the accepted corporate media and uniparty narrative.


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## Creamu (Jul 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Freedom of association is a constitutional right, so yes.


What if states use freedom of association to collectivise within ethnic lines and outcompete other states out of ethnic coherency?


TraderPatTX said:


> The diversity movement is nothing but a fraud. They never advocate for diversity of thought. The people who advocate for diversity attack those who think outside the accepted corporate media and uniparty narrative.


Yes they are cynically using people as pawns.


----------



## Xzi (Jul 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Profits do not cause inflation.


Excess profiteering absolutely contributes to an increase in cost of living in the exact same way that inflation does.  It doesn't matter that they're technically not one and the same, as they're often mistaken for one another.



TraderPatTX said:


> Who do you think votes for state representatives, you dork?


Gerrymandered districts of voters.  Which is why no republican president has won the popular vote since the fucking 80s, but they still control a majority of state legislatures.  Again, you probably already know this, you just don't have a problem with cheating as long as it's your "team" doing it.  You want tyranny of the minority to become permanent.


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## Delerious (Jul 28, 2022)

The Democrat and Republican parties have been hijacked by the worst people, and sadly, we, the people, are the ones who put them in their position. In a way, we are getting what we deserve for becoming as complacent as we are. It's a government's duty to see to the welfare of the people, but it's also a people's duty to hold their government accountable. If people fail to hold their government accountable for too long, the power gap only widens. Sadly, it's come to a point where that power gap is so large, that it only becomes more difficult to overcome, especially given the power of corporate America and the military. Even if people do try to rise against the government or against one another, I can only see martial law becoming a thing, and good luck overcoming an army that has tanks and drones at its disposal, and has only been too eager to use them in past wars.

As far as the culture war goes, I'm pretty moderate, so as far as I'm concerned, going to far left or right is an insane way of thinking. The far right are so closed-minded, that they are willing to abandon any Libertarian ideals when it comes to social liberties. The far left tends to see themselves as open-minded, but when you even bring up the debate of what really defines gender, they will close themselves off from the potential of whether their ideology is really true - and in turn, become equally closed minded. I hate this notion that just because people question gender ideology that they are against LGBTQ rights, but for a lot of us in the moderate camp, we're not denying rights to anyone. We're just raising the question because we don't buy the ideology, but we are labelled as the worst of the worst people for even questioning it, so sadly, even we moderates are sometimes thrown into this idiotic culture war that we hardly want to be a part of, which I kind of think is bull shit.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Creamu said:


> What if states use freedom of association to collectivise within ethnic lines and outcompete other states out of ethnic coherency?
> 
> Yes they are cynically using people as pawns.


That would assume that any single ethnicity thinks the same way as an entire block, which none do not, unless you count suburban wine moms as their own ethnicity.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Excess profiteering absolutely contributes to an increase in cost of living in the exact same way that inflation does.  It doesn't matter that they're technically not one and the same, as they're often mistaken for one another.
> 
> 
> Gerrymandered districts of voters.  Which is why no republican president has won the popular vote since the fucking 80s, but they still control a majority of state legislatures.  Again, you probably already know this, you just don't have a problem with cheating as long as it's your "team" doing it.  You want tyranny of the minority to become permanent.


There you go trying to redefine words

Tell me how many Democrat redistricting maps have been shot down by the courts this year alone and compare with the number of Republican redistricting maps have been shot down by the courts.

It's hilarious that we can't speak of cheating in the 2020 election, yet here you are claiming that there is cheating in all elections where Republicans win. Pick a narrative and stick with it. Do we have the most secure elections in the world or do we not? You can't have it both ways.


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## Creamu (Jul 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> That would assume that any single ethnicity thinks the same way as an entire block, which none do not, unless you count suburban wine moms as their own ethnicity.


My 'assumption' here is that some ethnic groups if you let them work unhindered in their natural coherence will outcompete others by alot.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Creamu said:


> My 'assumption' here is that some ethnic groups if you let them work unhindered in their natural coherence will outcompete others by alot.


So should the more successful groups be hindered or should the less successful groups have a level playing field so they have the opportunity to be successful also?


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## Creamu (Jul 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So should the more successful groups be hindered or should the less successful groups have a level playing field so they have the opportunity to be successful also?


What do you mean level playing field. Do you think if you switch out the japanese population with aborigines that they have a chance to uphold the standards of civilisation in japan?


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 28, 2022)

Creamu said:


> What do you mean level playing field. Do you think if you switch out the japanese population with aborigines that they have a chance to uphold the standards of civilisation in japan?


Do you think that a Japanese population could live as aborigines do without starving and dying? Every group has their own strengths and weaknesses. All they need to do is figure out how to use them to their advantage.

What is the end goal? Money? Power? Technological advancement?

What if the end goal is to just be happy with your place in the world? Some people enjoy living off the land. Some enjoy the hustle and bustle of large cities. Personal success is defined by the individual, not outside groups.


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## Creamu (Jul 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Do you think that a Japanese population could live as aborigines do without starving and dying? Every group has their own strengths and weaknesses. All they need to do is figure out how to use them to their advantage.


Yes but most of them cant build and uphold a civilisation as the USA. In fact only the people who built the american civilisation are able to do so. Fishes swim, birds fly, bringing them together and expecting comparable results is not going to happen.


TraderPatTX said:


> What is the end goal? Money? Power? Technological advancement?


Civilisation. High trust society for europeans, japanese etc. Other peoples may live however they choose, but wrecking the biosphere of others is just cruel.


TraderPatTX said:


> What if the end goal is to just be happy with your place in the world?


Then leaving people amoungst themselves is the way to go.


TraderPatTX said:


> Some people enjoy living off the land. Some enjoy the hustle and bustle of large cities. Personal success is defined by the individual, not outside groups.


Merchants that thrive in cities dont contribute anything of substance. Alot of people want to life in civilisation, but who is willing and able to build it.


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## Nothereed (Jul 29, 2022)

Delerious said:


> but when you even bring up the debate of what really defines gender, they will close themselves off from the potential of whether their ideology is really true


That primary comes from the strong response of the far right constantly prosecuting trans people. If that effected you, a lot of us are sorry, that's not the intent, we're just so tired and sick of hearing it, and it's truly begging to hurt people that we have to start assuming that your part of that camp.
Texas has outright said it wants to ban gender affirming care *entirely *for example.
Even if your not a trans person, this still can help you. There are guys who's gender matches with what their birth. In other words, they are a guy, who is sure they are a guy.
 but their hormones, for whatever reason it may be, is not quite aligned right. Maybe their voice still hasn't dropped and it's still pretty late in puberty. Or that their face looks a little more femine than it should. Or that they're developing wider hips, when they really shouldn't be.
 This can be fixed through hormone therapy, which is what is prominently used. The right however, would rather intentionally skew things as "They're changing kids genitals!" Which is extremely false. Doctors only would do it when your 21, legal age, considered a full adult. Primarily since your body is still growing up to around that point, meaning complications.

Further more there's a lot of evidence multiple genders do infact, exist. We already are aware of people who do not match the _binary_ XX XY format. There's some people out there who are XXY or whatever the fuck else I haven't mentioned. But then you also have the complicated thing that is brain development.
Tl;dr the body develops first, before the actual brain does. Which sounds obvious, but that also means that you can have the equivalent of a male body, with a female brain. Due to one being started later than the other, if any other hormone is more dominant than the other during that process, which naturally can happen. Then you get the people who feel genuinely uncomfortable in their own bodies, since their body developed in a prodominantly female esk setup. And is going to develop that way without intervention. While having the brain been developed in a more male esk setup, due to being started later. Not being developed at the sametime as their body.
We also know this isn't a new thing. If we trace back through different languages other than English. You'd quickly fine that there are words for people, that don't fit in the "he or she" binary way far back.


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## leon315 (Jul 29, 2022)

I believe Pelosi keeps poking China by visiting Taiwan as next major move proves US is *desperately need a war *to shift the internal unbearable political and social-economical tensions.

Very dangerous this US' move, by sending Pelosi *THE GREATEST INSIDE TRADER EVER *to such dangerous place like Taiwan right there's ongoing war in Europe, the humanity is never been so dangerously close to the WW3, thanks to Sleeping Joe and Liberalturds!


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## Acid_Snake (Jul 29, 2022)

Lacius said:


> When one party in this country moves so far to the right that they reject democracy in favor of authoritarianism, I would guess that's the problem.


And this here is the problem, and why we will never see a solution.

As long as we have political cultists like Lacius, completely incapable of seeing the crap of his own party, the US will continue its decline.

Because nothing screems democracy more than saying "lets ban all political parties and ideologies except mine, cause everyone else, except me, is radical and extremist".

I hope you do know that this is exactly how Hitler rose to power, by telling everyone that the others were violent and radical and that they should be banned from politics.

Hitler eventually did what you ask for Lacius, he banned the other political parties because of people like you who gave him the Nobel Peace Prize and clapped like seals when he said that the Jews were oppressing the poor German workers.

So yeah good idea Lacius, lets have the same exact fucking discourse and MO as Hitler did to get to power, that's definitely not authoritarian.


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## Lacius (Jul 29, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> And this here is the problem, and why we will never see a solution.
> 
> As long as we have political cultists like Lacius, completely incapable of seeing the crap of his own party, the US will continue its decline.
> 
> ...


I didn't say anything about banning political parties or ideologies, you disingenuous little pissant.

My political party isn't the one rejecting democracy and broadly supporting a violent coup, so I think we both know where you can take the word "authoritarianism" and shove it.

This whole site is a dumpster fire and I generally don't post much here anymore, so the next time you want to quote a post of mine that's nearly two months old only to inadvertently mock yourself, don't. You'll save us both some trouble.


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## MicroNut99 (Jul 29, 2022)

There is always hope but no, America is rotting away.


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## Delerious (Jul 30, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> That primary comes from the strong response of the far right constantly prosecuting trans people. If that effected you, a lot of us are sorry, that's not the intent, we're just so tired and sick of hearing it, and it's truly begging to hurt people that we have to start assuming that your part of that camp.



Understandable. I'm not particularly fond of much of the right's BS over the last several years myself, because it all too often comes down to Raeganomics and culture war these days. It especially must suck to be at the brunt of it.



Nothereed said:


> Texas has outright said it wants to ban gender affirming care *entirely *for example.
> Even if your not a trans person, this still can help you. There are guys who's gender matches with what their birth. In other words, they are a guy, who is sure they are a guy. But their hormones, for whatever reason it may be, is not quite aligned right. Maybe their voice still hasn't dropped and it's still pretty late in puberty. Or that their face looks a little more femine than it should. Or that they're developing wider hips, when they really shouldn't be.



Yeah, we all know how terrible Texas can be in the civil liberties department when the wrong people are in charge (which is pretty much always). Hell, they're also cracking down hard on abortion now, even though a notable portion of conservatives these days are in favor of some form of it within reason.

I don't know what gender affirmation looks like, so I'm ignorant in that category. I realize this may come off as "right thought," but I am one of those who believes that current science can't change what you are in regards to being male or female, and the first step should always be to try and help people accept and embrace that. That's not to say people should have to adopt "masculine" or "feminine" roles or traits based on their biological sex, but not accepting the body you were born into isn't especially healthy in my view. Also, when you change the definition of gender, you might as well change the very definition of what is a man and what is a woman. And if people can't agree on any true definition, then the terms might as well only be reserved for the medical and biological field, and stop using it as an identifier of what we assume based on appearance, or even behavior.

As for hormone therapy, I don't know what that looks like for people who are looking to "fit" more into their biological sex, nor do I know how much is prescribed for people looking to transition. But the body is designed to work with our hormones based on our genetic makeup. If you go too extreme in the other direction, it can cause health problems. Men, for example, can lose muscle and bone density, and their risk of osteoporosis, infertility and breast cancer is increased. For women, they may start to lose their hair, develop acne, grow facial hair and have a deeper voice - and some of those effects are irreversible. Ultimately though, as long as they are a consenting adult, what choices they make are theirs and theirs alone. I'm sure for a lot of people transitioning, they are probably made aware of any real risks.



Nothereed said:


> Further more there's a lot of evidence multiple genders do infact, exist. We already are aware of people who do not match the _binary_ XX XY format. There's some people out there who are XXY or whatever the fuck else I haven't mentioned. But then you also have the complicated thing that is brain development.



The XXY example you give is called Klinefelter Syndrome, which, in and of itself is not necessarily indicative of whether one is a different gender. Furthermore, this is classified as a [genetic condition] in males, and has real physical impacts, such as weak bones, lower energy levels and higher risk of obesity.



Nothereed said:


> Tl;dr the body develops first, before the actual brain does. Which sounds obvious, but that also means that you can have the equivalent of a male body, with a female brain. Due to one being started later than the other, if any other hormone is more dominant than the other during that process, which naturally can happen. Then you get the people who feel genuinely uncomfortable in their own bodies, since their body developed in a prodominantly female esk setup. And is going to develop that way without intervention. While having the brain been developed in a more male esk setup, due to being started later. Not being developed at the sametime as their body.



Hm, the "male" and "female" brain argument is actually said to not really even matter. Even some of the science supporting gender ideology assumes that our brains are rather "agender." Many psychologists agree that your overall behavior is mostly going to come back to your conditioning when growing up - that, and hormones. That's not to say there aren't outliers, as science is a constantly changing field, and there are always going to be core aspects of human nature that play a role.

Also, as far as human development goes, are you referring to development in the womb? Or are you referring to one's reproductive components?

----------------------------------------

Now onto the topic of gender in and of itself, and my case as it stands:

People say that gender is nothing more than a social construct. If that's the case, then the current social aspect of gender is complex and inconsistent. Many of the same people will say that social constructs and norms don't matter. If that's the case with gender, then gender as a whole should not really matter, thus, neither should gender identity, thus, people should just not identify as any gender - or even identify as anything. It should instead come down to only who the individual is when it comes to their own humanistic traits and personality. Furthermore, every cultural representation of what's considered masculine or feminine is different. While there are many commonalities, not every aspect of what's masculine or feminine is going to apply to every culture, especially when you consider the history of things line clothing and hair. Personally, I would say that what could even  - on a scientific level - be considered masculine or feminine would have to be things that resonate at the biological level - i.e. what synchronizes best with testosterone and estrogen. Even then, for all we know, some of those activities could be based on human conditioning - depending on the activity or construct in question. Ultimately though, there is always going to be two different definitions of what makes a man or a woman - one biological and one social. So the question ultimately becomes "how does society agree on a rule?" Do we identify only with the common biological and visual traits of what makes a man or a woman that is the simplest way to define someone as one or the other? And if that's so, then why should it matter to people who say that social constructs don't matter? And why would we want to continue to complicate and convolute something that should otherwise be so simple to such a degree that no matter who you talk to, you're probably going to offend someone in your daily life? Ultimately, there are baseline rules of society that ought to be agreed upon by the majority. If they are not, then the society in question starts having challenges when it comes to how it should function, and as humans, whether we live in a tribe or in civilized society, there are always going to be social constructs that get in the way. But in most societies, gender is boiled down to what is considered immutable, probably because they never had to think about it to the extremes that Western society does, because Western society is probably so obsessed with philosophy that we put ourselves in existential crisis over it. Anyway, that's my (admittedly nonsense) thought on gender.

In any case, I hope in the least that my viewpoints and arguments don't come off as rude. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a powerful debater, so I know there will be holes in my argument, and I'm sure you've probably already heard many of such arguments from others. All said, while I may not personally agree with gender ideology, I'm also not the type to go belittling people who may identify any such way as long as they are genuine about it, and I ultimately believe that people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies, so long as they are at an age where they can make those decisions rationally, and are aware of any potential side effects and irreversible changes along the way.


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## CraddaPoosta (Jul 30, 2022)

This is going to sound stupid, but, Naruto and 9/11 taught me everything I need to know about how to maybe bring this country back together. 

Follow me on this. 

It wasn't 9/11. It was the two weeks afterwards. Any adult who remembers this, remembers the look of pain and of loss on EVERY face. For at LEAST two weeks after. Everyone had little American flags on their antenna for their car. EVERYONE was a patriot. There were no strangers. No one in this nation was NOT family. You fuck with one of us, you fuck with ALL of us. 

It was the most sadly beautiful thing I have ever seen, to this day. The tragedy beyond the lives lost that day was that we couldn't hold on to that sentiment. We went right back to dividing ourselves and hating each other. 

Later in life, I got to experience the tale of the gutsy ninja. It was the Pain arc that taught me a very important lesson, and it tied right into the aftermath of 9/11. 

True understanding only comes from understanding another person's pain. THAT is why we all came together after the Towers fell. THAT is why there were no strangers, only equally wounded brothers. 

We are an amazing people. We are capable of fucking amazing things. We are too devoted to ourselves, our own images and our own selfish natures. 

But, fuck with us. PLEASE fuck with us. Then watch what we can do. Listen for your answer in the thunder. 

I know we can do it. We have proven it time and time again. I just wish it didn't REQUIRE shared pain for us to see ourselves in each other.


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## Lumstar (Jul 30, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> And this here is the problem, and why we will never see a solution.
> 
> As long as we have political cultists like Lacius, completely incapable of seeing the crap of his own party, the US will continue its decline.
> 
> ...



Fighting fire with fire is not going to end well. Right-wing populism, if not conservatism entirely, may be abhorrent to me.
But one-party politics are inherently worse than any conceivable party system.


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## Acid_Snake (Jul 30, 2022)

Lumstar said:


> Fighting fire with fire is not going to end well. Right-wing populism, if not conservatism entirely, may be abhorrent to me.
> But one-party politics are inherently worse than any conceivable party system.


Populism is the main selling point of politicians, always have been, it gets them vote.
What's idiotic is always blindly following a single party. BeLIEving that "my party is pure and yours is corrupt", or "I'm always right and you're always wrong" is infantile.

Now if we were to have this conversation 10 years ago, I would agree 100% that it's the right-wingers that are intolerant, don't listen to reason, are conspiranoid nutjobs, etc, etc, etc

But sadly we don't live in the 90's, 2000's or even 2010's, we're in 2022, and in the last few years it has been the left that brought back censorship, political prosecution, insulting other people's ideas, being overall hateful and intolerant.

You can say all you want about the how the super turbo extreme radical mega ultra death right wingers are taking over, but when I go out in the street I see communist flags and symbols flown aroung, not a single nazi one.


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## Acid_Snake (Jul 30, 2022)

Lacius said:


> I didn't say anything about banning political parties or ideologies, you disingenuous little pissant.
> 
> My political party isn't the one rejecting democracy and broadly supporting a violent coup, so I think we both know where you can take the word "authoritarianism" and shove it.
> 
> This whole site is a dumpster fire and I generally don't post much here anymore, so the next time you want to quote a post of mine that's nearly two months old only to inadvertently mock yourself, don't. You'll save us both some trouble.


Your political party brought back censorship, usage of insults and ad-hominem attacks against political opponents, openly supporting dictatorships (Cuba, Venezuela, China, etc), just to name a few.

And as long as you keep sucking up to the same political party, you are in no right to call yourself a "democracy supporter".

The idea behind democracy is that everyone gets their voice, not just your party, not just you.
And an even greater idea of democracy is that politicians and ideas have to change (for the same reason that diapers need changing).

Don't call yourself a "progressive" if you never change your mind.


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## CraddaPoosta (Jul 30, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> Your political party brought back censorship, usage of insults and ad-hominem attacks against political opponents, openly supporting dictatorships (Cuba, Venezuela, China, etc), just to name a few.
> 
> And as long as you keep sucking up to the same political party, you are in no right to call yourself a "democracy supporter".
> 
> ...


Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Wise words. Unfortunately, we live in an era of thought police, and none of the thought cops understand that "bigotry" means "to so strongly hold onto an idea that one refuses to even entertain any idea to the contrary".

If you require force to ENFORCE your ideology on others, that is the very definition of fascism.


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## Lacius (Jul 30, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> The idea behind democracy is that everyone gets their voice, not just your party, not just you.


Please tell the Republican Party that votes and democracy matter. They're the ones who tried to overturn the last election because they didn't like the results.

You're embarrassing yourself with this "I know you are but what am I?" bullshit.


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## ScaryHobbit (Jul 30, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> Populism is the main selling point of politicians, always have been, it gets them vote.
> What's idiotic is always blindly following a single party. BeLIEving that "my party is pure and yours is corrupt", or "I'm always right and you're always wrong" is infantile.
> 
> Now if we were to have this conversation 10 years ago, I would agree 100% that it's the right-wingers that are intolerant, don't listen to reason, are conspiranoid nutjobs, etc, etc, etc
> ...





Neo Draven said:


> Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
> 
> Wise words. Unfortunately, we live in an era of thought police, and none of the thought cops understand that "bigotry" means "to so strongly hold onto an idea that one refuses to even entertain any idea to the contrary".
> 
> If you require force to ENFORCE your ideology on others, that is the very definition of fascism.


Very wise points, both of you.
Even so, I argue that the extremism on the Left - and _certain forms_ of extremism on the Right (The mainstream media's MO has been to paint _any_ argument the Right makes as "extremist" - no matter how sensible it actually is) - is merely a symptom of the real problem.

The *real* group that is trying to destroy America is the corrupt political Swamp. The Swamp is vast - Corrupt politicians, businessmen, corporations, educators, military, idealogues, you name it.
Most importantly, the Swamp is comprised of *both Democrats and Republicans*, not just one or the other. It is an unholy alliance between Marxists, fascists, corporatists, and globalists of all colors and religions with one singular purpose:
To install a Feudalist system over the entire globe where their select class have total control over every single living thing - and getting _fabulously_ wealthy from it.

In America, this Swamp is centered around both the *Clintons* and the *Bushes* - who in turn do the bidding of the likes of corrupt billionares like Klaus Schwab and the World Economic Forum ("You will own nothing, and you will be happy"), who then do the bidding of their own clients, etc, etc, etc, - all in the persuit of _wealth_.
Presently - the Clintons control the Democrat party, while the Bushes control the Republican party. They rig the elections and actions of their respective parties to both maintain their power, and to keep Americans too hopelessly divided to notice their Constitutional rights and sovereignity being stripped piece by piece.

That's why the Bushes HATE Donald Trump.
Somehow. Trump not only beat their appointed candidates, but also miraculously defeated Hillary Clinton herself to become President.
This has ended up _exposing_ the corruption within the Republican side of the Swamp to the common citizens. And as they are slowly chased out of the party by voters, these corrupt GOP members - including the Bushes - have publically come out in support of the Democrat party - which is still firmly under the Swamp's control.
They're not doing this to appose Trump -they're doing this to _put us back in line._

Trump's election also seriously threw off the Swamp's timing, and introduced a slew of new obstacles that were never there before. Millions of people are now aware of what they have done, and what they are doing.
Because of this, their response to try and catch back up has been to go nearly full fucking fascist - a full court press of censorship, gaslighting, debauchery, and policies designed to force millions of people into poverty and dependency.
That's why you see the insanity you see today.
But their strategy is also a double-edge sword - because you can't _force someone to go back to sleep when they have become wide awake_ - you can only kill them, but that alone could wake many more up if done poorly. And the faster they push, the worse it gets for the Swamp... just ask Sri Lanka.


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## Lumstar (Jul 30, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
> 
> Wise words. Unfortunately, we live in an era of thought police, and none of the thought cops understand that "bigotry" means "to so strongly hold onto an idea that one refuses to even entertain any idea to the contrary".
> 
> If you require force to ENFORCE your ideology on others, that is the very definition of fascism.



From that standpoint, I have criticized the pandemic mandates.
Whether or not I agree with the measures is beside the point, nobody asked me. I never received a ballot seeking my input.


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## lolcatzuru (Jul 30, 2022)

we can very easily solve the problem, stop employing democrats.


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## Acid_Snake (Aug 1, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Please tell the Republican Party that votes and democracy matter. They're the ones who tried to overturn the last election because they didn't like the results.
> 
> You're embarrassing yourself with this "I know you are but what am I?" bullshit.


You are right, but if you also replace "republican" with "democrat", you will still be right.

Which is why you're a fascist biggot as others have pointed out. You never see the crap in your own party and you use lies, censorship and violence to advance your blood-thirsty ideology.

Any sane person knows that no one political party is 100% pure and free of corruption and that all politicians lie.
You just gotta figure out which one lies the least, and sadly for you, that'd be Trump.

Anyone with a basic background knowledge in the US army knows exactly why Hillary is called Killary. Oh but your party is the party of love and peace, except when they are bombing the hell out of Syria.

Keep your eyes closed, eventually you'll hit yourself with a wall so hard you won't be able to afford being a blind cultist anymore.


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## Acid_Snake (Aug 1, 2022)

ScaryHobbit said:


> Very wise points, both of you.
> Even so, I argue that the extremism on the Left - and _certain forms_ of extremism on the Right (The mainstream media's MO has been to paint _any_ argument the Right makes as "extremist" - no matter how sensible it actually is) - is merely a symptom of the real problem.
> 
> The *real* group that is trying to destroy America is the corrupt political Swamp. The Swamp is vast - Corrupt politicians, businessmen, corporations, educators, military, idealogues, you name it.
> ...


Open up Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, and you'll find an uncanny ressemblance to today's democrat party.
People like Lucius are the perfect idiot that back in the day saluted Hitler without thinking twice about it.

Critical Race Theory uses the same antiscientific ideas that the Nazis used to talk about race. Nevermind the fact that scientists are tired of telling these racists idiots that humans don't have races.

Replace the word "Jew" or the word "proletariat" with "cis white men" and "patriarchy" in any of Hitler's discourse and you'll have every democrat's way of thinking.


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## smf (Aug 1, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> For at LEAST two weeks after. Everyone had little American flags on their antenna for their car. EVERYONE was a patriot. There were no strangers.


Sure, people even overlooked Rudy Giuliani....

But that kind of flag waving patriotism where you pretend that you all agree is temporary.



Acid_Snake said:


> Nevermind the fact that scientists are tired of telling these racists idiots that humans don't have races.


There are genetic traits that were more successful in certain parts of the world though.
Like sickle cell anemia, which protects you from malaria.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Aug 1, 2022)

smf said:


> Sure, people even overlooked Rudy Giuliani....
> 
> But that kind of flag waving patriotism where you pretend that you all agree is temporary.


Doesn't HAVE to be. But it was beautiful while it lasted.


----------



## smf (Aug 1, 2022)

Neo Draven said:


> Doesn't HAVE to be. But it was beautiful while it lasted.


It does, because people assume that everyone agrees with them and then they act like dicks.

If on January the 6th 2021, those people had been thinking "I believe the election was stolen, but look at all these people who disagree & maybe they are right" then it is unlikely things would have kicked off they way they did.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2022)

@Acid_Snake

The Democratic Party didn't try to overturn an election they didn't like, with or without violence.
Fascism is a far-right and authoritarian ideology (i.e. Trump). I'm far-left and pro-democracy. By no definition am I a fascist.
Name one group I'm bigoted against. The right-wing nutjobs in the US who are prejudiced against people of color, LGBT people, etc. are the bigots. By no definition am I a bigot.
I never said any party was "pure" or "free from corruption." However, the corruption on the right far exceeds the corruption on the left. The former president was demonstrably one of the most corrupt presidents we've ever had.
The former president is infamous for being one of the biggest liars in American history.
If you dig deep enough, you can find plenty of criticisms of Hillary Clinton's foreign policy by me on this forum. That doesn't change the fact that the Democratic Party is by far less hawkish than the Republican Party. I'm wondering if you have a point.
With respect, you sound ridiculous.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 1, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The Democratic Party didn't try to overturn an election they didn't like, with or without violence.





> *Franklin Delano Roosevelt* (/ˈdɛlənoʊ/;[1][2] /ˈroʊzəˌvɛlt, -vəlt/[3][4] _ROH-zə-velt, -⁠vəlt_; January 30, 1882 – April 12, 1945), often referred to by his initials *FDR*, was an American politician and attorney who served as the 32nd president of the United States from 1933 until his death in 1945. As a member of the Democratic Party [...]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2022)

Creamu said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt


If you have a point, please make it.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 1, 2022)

Lacius said:


> If you have a point, please make it.


My point is that the Democratic Party did overturn an election they didn't like, with violence.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 1, 2022)

Creamu said:


> My point is that the Democratic Party did overturn an election they didn't like, with violence.


What was the election, when was the election, who was the candidate, and where was the violence?

If you are going to make bold claims, please be specific, because I have no idea what you're talking about, and you seem to be wasting my time.

FDR won his elections by pretty comfortable margins.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 1, 2022)

Lacius said:


> What was the election, when was the election, who was the candidate, and where was the violence?
> 
> If you are going to make bold claims, please be specific, because I have no idea what you're talking about, and you seem to be wasting my time.
> 
> FDR won his elections by pretty comfortable margins.


He 'liberated' germany.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 1, 2022)

Creamu said:


> He 'liberated' germany.


Once upon a time, Plastic Man, Mister Fantastic, Elongated Man, and Stretch Armstrong came together to hear this comment and replied in unison with "Now that is a stretch!"

Didn't Germany declare war on the United States first, in solidarity with Japan? Kinda a whole different sort of deal.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 1, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> Once upon a time, Plastic Man, Mister Fantastic, Elongated Man, and Stretch Armstrong came together to hear this comment and replied in unison with "Now that is a stretch!"
> 
> Didn't Germany declare war on the United States first, in solidarity with Japan? Kinda a whole different sort of deal.


At this point the USA is famous for dubious claims for being dragged into wars. Weapons of mass. Fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. No shame.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 1, 2022)

Creamu said:


> At this point the USA is famous for dubious claims for being dragged into wars. Weapons of mass. Fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. No shame.



Funny that, the last big example of this was with a... baseball enthusiast!.. who was also a Republican president that squeaked in without the popular vote. Plenty of shame, but not much that supports your original point, conspiracy-kun.

Swing and a miss!


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 1, 2022)

Does the rioting and destruction in DC on the day of Trump's inauguration count? The damage was more spread out but much higher than on Jan 6th. Fewer grandmas picking up discarded water bottles litter, and more burning of police cars.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 1, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> Funny that, the last big example of this was with a... baseball enthusiast!.. who was also a Republican president that squeaked in without the popular vote. Plenty of shame, but not much that supports your original point, conspiracy-kun.
> 
> Swing and a miss!


The USA, the manhatten project to be exact, developed the nuclear bomb, while estimating a 10% chance of whiping out the entire planet when testing it for the first time. When the nuclear bomb was developed unfortunatly germany was already defeated and japan asked for capitulation. So what did the USA do? It nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki after japan asked for capitulation. They wanted to nuke Kyoto, because it was and thankfully still is the historical/cultural center of japan, but that got too much push back. So the USA nuked a country that sought for capitulation, not to speak of the countless equally horrific fire bombings (civil targets; not of strategic benifit). Interesting development for an actor that was forced into war.

So how did the war with japan begin? The USA cut off the oil supply of the japanese. Doing this is putting your enemy into a position where he can go nowhere but physical escalation. When the japanese pilots approached pearl habor, the american government was aware of this, but chose not to tell the people on the ground. Why were they so interested in letting this happen without sounding alarm. The idea for the average american, many of them german themself, of engaging in such a war was quite unpopular, so a catastrophic event was a nice bump to kickstart the project.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 1, 2022)

Creamu said:


> I think it goes much deeper than that. The european people of the world will cease to exist in any recognizeable way if their biospheres get repurposed as a breeding ground for the whole world population to breed in.


Ironically, the East Europeans had a much higher chance of surviving as a people under the dragonian Soviet rule than in the EU. Ukraine will learn that lesson once they are asked to take in people of other ethnicities or but cut from those sweet sweet Euros.


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 1, 2022)

Creamu said:


> The USA, the manhatten project to be exact, developed the nuclear bomb, while estimating a 10% chance of whiping out the entire planet when testing it for the first time. When the nuclear bomb was developed unfortunatly germany was already defeated and japan asked for capitulation. So what did the USA do? It nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki after japan asked for capitulation. They wanted to nuke Kyoto, because it was and thankfully still is the historical/cultural center of japan, but that got too much push back. So the USA nuked a country that sought for capitulation, not to speak of the countless equally horrific fire bombings (civil targets; not of strategic benifit). Interesting development for an actor that was forced into war.
> 
> So how did the war with japan begin? The USA cut off the oil supply of the japanese. Doing this is putting your enemy into a position where he can go nowhere but physical escalation. When the japanese pilots approached pearl habor, the american government was aware of this, but chose not to tell the people on the ground. Why were they so interested in letting this happen without sounding alarm. The idea for the average american, many of them german themselves, of engaging in such a war was quite unpopular, so a catastrophic event was a nice bump to kickstart the project.


You act like the Japanese were done and seeking surrender. The American, British, and Chinese governments reiterated the demand for unconditional surrender of Japan, specifically stating that "the alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction".

Japan rejected this claim assuming they could negotiate something more beneficial. The Soviets were moving in and took out Japan's largest fighting force the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. And were staging for a brutal main land assault. With the fanaticism in the Japanese military at the time, it's unlikely many of the generals and admirals would have stopped fighting. Right or wrong the nukings were shock and awe meant to bring an immediate stop to the war. Hiroshima was Aug 6th with Nagasaki on the 9th. Over the evening of the 9-10th the Emperor announced his decision to accept the terms demanded by the Allies in the Potsdam Declaration. With official announcements as public broadcast on the 15th along with their surrender. Sept 2nd was when the surrender documents were signed.

The manhatten project also wasn't in a vacuum. The Germans were researching nuclear weapons as well. However, due to corruption and ineptitude, they never got very far. This was unknown to the allies at the time as it was a secretive project with few in the German government being aware of the failures.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 1, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> You act like the Japanese were done and seeking surrender. The American, British, and Chinese governments reiterated the demand for unconditional surrender of Japan, specifically stating that "the alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction".
> 
> Japan rejected this claim assuming they could negotiate something more beneficial. The Soviets were moving in and took out Japan's largest fighting force the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. And were staging for a brutal main land assault. With the fanaticism in the Japanese military at the time, it's unlikely many of the generals and admirals would have stopped fighting. Right or wrong the nukings were shock and awe meant to bring an immediate stop to the war. Hiroshima was Aug 6th with Nagasaki on the 9th. Over the evening of the 9-10th the Emperor announced his decision to accept the terms demanded by the Allies in the Potsdam Declaration. With official announcements as public broadcast on the 15th along with their surrender. Sept 2nd was when the surrender documents were signed.
> 
> The manhatten project also wasn't in a vacuum. The Germans were researching nuclear weapons as well. However, due to corruption and ineptitude, they never got very far. This was unknown to the allies at the time as it was a secretive project with few in the German government being aware of the failures.


You can spin narratives to a point where nuclear attacks on civil targets become rationalizable. Apart from that this is messed up nonsense concocted by psychopaths of the highest degree.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 2, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Ironically, the East Europeans had a much higher chance of surviving as a people under the dragonian Soviet rule than in the EU. Ukraine will learn that lesson once they are asked to take in people of other ethnicities or but cut from those sweet sweet Euros.


The east has (at least in part) learned it's lesson from their bolshevik leaders that erradicated 66.000.000 of them according to Solschenizyn. How the ukraine was unable to learn this lesson after things like the holodomor is beyond me. This not even 100 years ago.

Also you can survive annihilation of a huge chunk of your population. What you cannot survive is getting spiritually crippeld and demographicly overrun.


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 2, 2022)

Creamu said:


> You can spin narratives to a point where nuclear attacks on civil targets become rationalizable. Apart from that this is messed up nonsense concocted by psychopaths of the highest degree.


Where's the spin? I left it as right or wrong and stated nothing for historical facts.

We have no way of knowing how things would have played out were other choices made. But to truly understand history one has to have all of the facts in front of them, as well as be able to place themselves into the shoes of another looking at only the information available to them to say without a doubt if someone was a hero or demon.

Some would argue that the fire bombings were more cruel, and the joint western assault by the Soviets and eastern assault by MacArthur would have been much more costly.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 2, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Where's the spin? I left it as right or wrong and stated nothing for historical facts.
> 
> We have no way of knowing how things would have played out were other choices made. But to truly understand history one has to have all of the facts in front of them, as well as be able to place themselves into the shoes of another looking at only the information available to them to say without a doubt if someone was a hero or demon.
> 
> Some would argue that the fire bombings were more cruel, and the joint western assault by the Soviets and eastern assault by MacArthur would have been much more costly.


EDIT: I suggest opening another thread since this is going too far off-topic.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 2, 2022)

'No established democracy in recent history has been as deeply polarized as the U.S. “For the United States,” Jennifer McCoy, the lead author of the study and a political-science professor at Georgia State University, told me in an interview, “I am very pessimistic.”'

-Yascha Mounk

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...crat-republican-partisan-polarization/629925/

'In a survey, YouGov asked: “Do you personally believe that in the U.S., Democrats are trying to replace white Americans with immigrants and people of color who share Democrats’ views?”

73% of Trump voters responded “yes,” while just 8% of Biden voters – and 10% of Democrats overall – said the same. 33% of independent voters also said they believe that the Great Replacement is being pushed by Democrats.

The survey also asked: “Do you personally believe that in the U.S., Jewish people are trying to replace white Americans with immigrants and people of color who share Jewish people’s views?”

To this question, just 12% of Trump voters responded “yes,” as did 7% of Biden voters.'

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/new...eople-some-think-jews-are-doing-the-same.html

'- 50.1 percent expect to see a second American Civil War within years
- More than 40 percent favor a 'strong leader' over democracy and adhere to immigrant takeover belief
- One fifth expect to be gun-toting at a January 6 Capitol riot-style melee in the coming years
- California university researchers say results 'exceeded our worst expectations'
- Study follows mass shootings and comes amid controversial Washington hearings into January 6 insurrection'

-James Reinl

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...avis-democracy-threat-civil-war-politics.html

''Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most
Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the
US. At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and
Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”
Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump
(and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that
“democracy is [the] best form of government.”'

-Garen J. Wintemute

https://www.riotimesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/US-civil-war.pdf

'America is not split into two tribes, as we're sometimes told. In fact, we've identified seven distinct groups of Americans. These are our Hidden Tribes of America: distinguished not by who they are or what they look like, but what they believe.'








https://hiddentribes.us/


----------



## Viri (Aug 2, 2022)

The people with power want the poor peasants to be divided. The people with power will try their best to keep poor people divided, because it's easier to control them.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 2, 2022)

Creamu said:


> The USA, the manhatten project to be exact, developed the nuclear bomb, while estimating a 10% chance of whiping out the entire planet when testing it for the first time. When the nuclear bomb was developed unfortunatly germany was already defeated and japan asked for capitulation. So what did the USA do? It nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki after japan asked for capitulation. They wanted to nuke Kyoto, because it was and thankfully still is the historical/cultural center of japan, but that got too much push back. So the USA nuked a country that sought for capitulation, not to speak of the countless equally horrific fire bombings (civil targets; not of strategic benifit). Interesting development for an actor that was forced into war.
> 
> So how did the war with japan begin? The USA cut off the oil supply of the japanese. Doing this is putting your enemy into a position where he can go nowhere but physical escalation. When the japanese pilots approached pearl habor, the american government was aware of this, but chose not to tell the people on the ground. Why were they so interested in letting this happen without sounding alarm. The idea for the average american, many of them german themself, of engaging in such a war was quite unpopular, so a catastrophic event was a nice bump to kickstart the project.


If I'm not mistaken, it seems as though you're actually damning the USA for its involvement in World War 2 and are trying to throw shade and blame on the Democrats for their involvement in a war against the most famous genocidal tyrant of all time... I did Nazi that comming from a conservative! Eh? Ehhhh? 

Seriously though, this kinda sums up my problem with most of your threads. You pull statistics and opinions from the fringes, play pretend enlightened centrist, and make outrageous claims by skirting around the bigger issues and sniping at ice-cold trivial factoids whenever you think it might benefit your position... and like this train to nowhere you yourself started, you often derail.




Viri said:


> The people with power want the poor peasants to be divided. The people with power will try their best to keep poor people divided, because it's easier to control them.


This is half true, but I actually want to use conspiracy-kun's chart to prove a point for a second. Putting aside how unreliable his sources tend to be, the chart isn't built to show a divide so much as show a center majority of indifferent, exhausted, and uninterested people. There is some truth that dividing people can make them easier to control, but it really is only half the equation. The other half is to burn out the majority so they don't take up arms for one side or another, because at some point dominance might get achieved if one side gets enough power off the fence. The majority of Americans want things like public healthcare, more funding for schools, support programs for kids, legalized marijuana, judicial reform, and abortion rights since they're kinda obvious positive things, but "centrists" would rather justify Nazis and handwave rights for all than allow progressives to seem like anything more than the other side of the insurrectionist right because a side getting power leads to change.

Long story short, everyone should ignore these crazy threads and find what pumps you up to fight for progress!


----------



## ScaryHobbit (Aug 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> The Democratic Party didn't try to overturn an election they didn't like, with or without violence.


Either you are a terrible liar, or you have a terrible memory.

The nights after Trump was elected:




Trump's Inauguration:


And that's just been around Election Time. Portland for example has been a warzone for over 5 years now.

Then there was the George Floyd riots, where people attacked the White House itself:




The Swamp's goal for all of this violence was to try to force Trump to use the military against the rioters - hoping it would create a massacre. Then they would use that massacre to accuse Trump of being a dictator.

As for the Democratic *Party* - well, they put all their hopes on Special Counsel Robert Mueller to arrest Trump for "Russian Collusion", claiming that "Russian Collusion" rigged the election for Trump.
Mueller's findings: *Trump exonerated of any and all wrongdoing.* No arrest.
After that, the Dems tried to impeach him despite there being no evidence of Trump committing _any_ crimes.
They wanted Trump arrested and removed not because he committed any crime (which has been proven over and over again he did not), but because they wanted him _gone_ by any means necessary.

(PS to others: The arguing over WW2 and the atom bombs is distracting. We should stay on-topic.)


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 2, 2022)

ScaryHobbit said:


> Rawr I'm insane and the libs were trying to martyr cult themselves into rebellion rawr conservative nonsense!
> 
> (PS to others: The arguing over WW2 and the atom bombs is distracting. We should stay on-topic.)



And thus my point is proven. Riots aren't the same as a coup, injustice isn't the same as insurrection, and the far left is not the same as the far right. It even ends with "Skip the pointing out of Nazi apologetics, lets get back to center." Golden.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 2, 2022)

First of all I am positioned counter to the conservative position.


Dakitten said:


> Seriously though, this kinda sums up my problem with most of your threads. You pull statistics and opinions from the fringes,


Yascha Mounk is as mainstream academic source as you can possibly get.


Dakitten said:


> play pretend enlightened centrist,


I am a centrist in so far that I want the will of the peoples of this planet reflected in their own governments. This excludes of course international merchants that want to benifit from rooted people against their interests. In this sense I am an absolute centrist.


Dakitten said:


> and make outrageous claims


We live in outrageous times.


Dakitten said:


> by skirting around the bigger issues and sniping at ice-cold trivial factoids whenever you think it might benefit your position...


Can you demonstrate this for me, I don't know what you mean.


Dakitten said:


> and like this train to nowhere you yourself started, you often derail.


Are you saying I want to derail my own threads?



ScaryHobbit said:


> (PS to others: The arguing over WW2 and the atom bombs is distracting. We should stay on-topic.)


I agree. I did anticipate that whatever ones perspective on my take was, that it would be met with humour (in retrospect obviously a miscalculation on my part). While there should be place in threads for humour and excursions, it is important to respect the structual integrity of a thread. As I saw that explaining my position wasn't going to get back on topic any time soon I aborted the discussion.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2022)

ScaryHobbit said:


> Either you are a terrible liar, or you have a terrible memory.
> 
> The nights after Trump was elected:
> 
> ...



Nobody seriously tried to overturn the 2016 election. Don't confuse trying to overturn an election with justified criticisms of Trump and the Electoral College system (Clinton won the popular vote against Trump). The Republican Party literally tried to change the results of an election they didn't like. The Democratic Party has never done anything comparable.

The Mueller report didn't exonerate Trump. Quite the opposite. It laid out all the ways in which he demonstrably obstructed justice. There was also no counterintelligence investigation as a part of the Mueller investigation, which is a significant part of the story to be left out.

There is plenty of evidence for the things Trump was impeached for, and bipartisan majorities voted to convict him on the second impeachment. Regarding both impeachments, many Republican senators who voted to acquit did so acknowledging that Trump was actually guilty but that it wasn't worth conviction. Regarding the second impeachment specifically, many Republican senators acknowledged and condemned Trump's actions leading up to and on January 6, but they voted to acquit solely because he wasn't president anymore.

It should go without saying, but the BLM protests, in addition to being 96-98% peaceful and having a central cause that's noble unlike trying to overturn a democratic election, have nothing to do with this conversation.


----------



## Acid_Snake (Aug 2, 2022)

smf said:


> There are genetic traits that were more successful in certain parts of the world though.
> Like sickle cell anemia, which protects you from malaria.


yeah but that's not enough to classify humans into races.

Biologically speaking, race mixing can hav very detrimental results, just look at dogs with multiple breeds and how they have all sorts of problems. This doesn't happen with humans, the result of a white human breeding with a black human is another perfectly normal human being.

Also, biologically speaking, the manifestation of racial traits implies such race is indeed the one you'd observe genetically, but this again doesn't happen with humans, you can have extremely black people who happen to be genetically european, or white people who happen to be genetically african. You can look like one race, but be genetically built like another.

This is because there's no such thing as human races, we only have one race, and lots of different genetic makeup that may or may not determine how we look like depending on which genes are dominant and which aren't.


----------



## Acid_Snake (Aug 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> @Acid_Snake
> 
> The Democratic Party didn't try to overturn an election they didn't like, with or without violence.
> Fascism is a far-right and authoritarian ideology (i.e. Trump). I'm far-left and pro-democracy. By no definition am I a fascist.
> ...


- No they don't need to overthrow an election, they just steal it with fake mail-in ballots, like the ones my cuban family received despite not being citizens.

- Fascism is not right-wing or left-wing, classifying fascism as right-wing when Mussilini himself used Lenin's 1917 revolution as an example of fascism, stupidity much?. Someone uses words without knowing what they mean...
Anyhow, Mussolini, the father of fascism and a well known radical socialist, would be very happy to see that you are one of his most advanced students.

- Anyone who is right-wing, conservative or christian. You literally go around saying that everyone in these groups must be eliminated from society, and you use false flag attacks and accuse them of violence (where there's none) to justify this extermination. Exactly like Hitler did to get rid of his opposition.

- That's not objectively true. Unless you have a list of every lie ever said by every president, in which case you'd find yourself having to point fingers in your direction too. Now I'm not saying Trump never lied, I'm not a cultist like you who would suck it up to a politician, that's just sad. But you can't say "this is the most lying president ever" and be taken seriously with such a childish statement. Also we all know how much the left hates the truth, you've already lied a few times in this thread and you keep lying despite people calling you out on your bullshit. You guys can't even stand *basic truths* such as the *fact* that only *women* can get *pregnant*, and you dare call the other side liers? You manipulate information and change history and definitions to fit your truthless ideals. You even behave like Grade A fascists while calling others fascists, which is exactly what the fascists (Hitler and Mussolini) did to gain power.

- The democratic party held power for 8 years after that piece of shit Bush fucked shit up in the middle east. What did you guys do to fix the issue? Oh right, bomb the hell out of them. More drone strikes were issues by Obama than any republican president, but hey they gave him the Nobel Peace Prize (they gave it to Hitler too though...).
Then came in *Trump with historical paece treaties* between Isreal and Saudi Arabia, and historical peace treaties between North and South Korea. *What is Biden doing *with that again? Oh right, *there's bombings* in Gaza *again*, and there's also bombings in the Korean border again.

With respect, you sound like an iliteraly braindead amoeba.


----------



## Zyvyn (Aug 2, 2022)

Creamu said:


> '[...]
> 
> Drawing on the Variety of Democracies (V-Dem) data set, published by an independent research institute in Sweden that covers 202 countries and goes back more than two centuries, its authors assess to what degree each country suffers from “pernicious” levels of partisan polarization. Do their citizens have such hostile views of opponents that they’re willing to act in ways that put democracy itself at risk?
> 
> ...


Corruption has just fucked up everything. Now I'm not saying its on one side, it's everywhere. but, it has gotten much much worse in the past 8 or so years.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 2, 2022)

Creamu said:


> That's interesting, since it is rather antiquated. Why do you think they are choosing to use this term? Do they get this from pundits? Is it something they use because they don't feel at liberty to say another term they truely mean or is this organic?
> 
> They wouldn't be categorised as gay if they loved eachother in a platonic way.
> 
> ...


A smaller federal government with limited power, as designed, would limit the government's interference in the markets. I'm not advocating for zero regulations but the government is literally picking winners and losers based on ideology. See for example, Solyndra.

The dollar needs to be put back on the gold standard. Putin just did this with the ruble and it is doing fantastic.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 2, 2022)

Zyvyn said:


> Corruption has just fucked up everything. Now I'm not saying its on one side, it's everywhere. but, it has gotten much much worse in the past 8 or so years.


The corruption has always been here. We are just waking up to how far it really goes with more waking up every day.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 2, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> And this here is the problem, and why we will never see a solution.
> 
> As long as we have political cultists like Lacius, completely incapable of seeing the crap of his own party, the US will continue its decline.
> 
> ...


Zelenskyy just banned every opposition party in Ukraine and the left still cheers him. There is not a single authoritarian that a leftist does not love.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 2, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> - No they don't need to overthrow an election, they just steal it with fake mail-in ballots, like the ones my cuban family received despite not being citizens.


There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election. Among the few instances of fraud that were found, many of them were for Trump.



Acid_Snake said:


> - Fascism is not right-wing or left-wing


Fascism is, by definition, a "far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism



Acid_Snake said:


> - Anyone who is right-wing, conservative or christian. You literally go around saying that everyone in these groups must be eliminated from society


I've never said anything like this, nor do I believe it.



Acid_Snake said:


> - That's not objectively true. Unless you have a list of every lie ever said by every president, in which case you'd find yourself having to point fingers in your direction too. Now I'm not saying Trump never lied, I'm not a cultist like you who would suck it up to a politician, that's just sad. But you can't say "this is the most lying president ever" and be taken seriously with such a childish statement. Also we all know how much the left hates the truth, you've already lied a few times in this thread and you keep lying despite people calling you out on your bullshit. You guys can't even stand *basic truths* such as the *fact* that only *women* can get *pregnant*, and you dare call the other side liers? You manipulate information and change history and definitions to fit your truthless ideals. You even behave like Grade A fascists while calling others fascists, which is exactly what the fascists (Hitler and Mussolini) did to gain power.


I said one of the biggest liars in American presidential history, which is demonstrably true.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...isleading-claims-total-30573-over-four-years/



Acid_Snake said:


> - The democratic party held power for 8 years after that piece of shit Bush fucked shit up in the middle east. What did you guys do to fix the issue? Oh right, bomb the hell out of them. More drone strikes were issues by Obama than any republican president, but hey they gave him the Nobel Peace Prize (they gave it to Hitler too though...).
> Then came in *Trump with historical paece treaties* between Isreal and Saudi Arabia, and historical peace treaties between North and South Korea. *What is Biden doing *with that again? Oh right, *there's bombings* in Gaza *again*, and there's also bombings in the Korean border again.



Obama ended a war, Trump continued wars, and Biden ended a war.
Trump carried out more strikes in Somalia and Yemen than all other presidents combined.
Trump attempted to stop the reporting of drone strike death numbers.
Until recently, there have been very few drone strikes under Biden.
The Biden administration is very much helping to broker peace in the Middle East: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-israel-saudi-arabia-egypt-negotiating-deal-tiran-sanafir



Acid_Snake said:


> With respect, you sound like an iliteraly braindead amoeba.


What kind of braindead amoeba? Lol.


----------



## chrisrlink (Aug 2, 2022)

at this rate i rather see the US being a colony again especially since UK politics are so much better since the 18th century (similar to Canada or Austrailia) have a PM that listens to the royals but keep most of the freedoms we have today we have failed as an independant republic and the english monarchy thiough evolved has stood strong since the dark ages


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Nobody seriously tried to overturn the 2016 election. Don't confuse trying to overturn an election with justified criticisms of Trump and the Electoral College system (Clinton won the popular vote against Trump). The Republican Party literally tried to change the results of an election they didn't like. The Democratic Party has never done anything comparable.
> 
> The Mueller report didn't exonerate Trump. Quite the opposite. It laid out all the ways in which he demonstrably obstructed justice. There was also no counterintelligence investigation as a part of the Mueller investigation, which is a significant part of the story to be left out.
> 
> ...


Rachel Maddow, is that you?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 2, 2022)

Lacius said:


> There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election. Among the few instances of fraud that were found, many of them were for Trump.
> 
> 
> Fascism is, by definition, a "far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement."
> ...


I'm going to enjoy watching you people be blindsided when states start recalling their electors.

Wikipedia just changed the definition of recession and locked the page. The CDC was caught changing the definition of vaccine. And the left can't even define a woman anymore. Weird how the left is always changing the definitions of words to suit the narrative.

Using WaPo as a source? Do you know how many ex-CIA and ex-FBI employees work there?


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 2, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I'm going to enjoy watching you people be blindsided when states start recalling their electors.
> 
> Wikipedia just changed the definition of recession and locked the page. The CDC was caught changing the definition of vaccine. And the left can't even define a woman anymore. Weird how the left is always changing the definitions of words to suit the narrative.
> 
> Using WaPo as a source? Do you know how many ex-CIA and ex-FBI employees work there?


Bad news, I saw an "article" saying that "fact checkers" say Wisconsin can't recall their electors.

That was literally all it said as a news item. Someone's getting desperate.


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 2, 2022)

Creamu said:


> First of all I am positioned counter to the conservative position.


Bad news, you are no longer left-wing enough for liberals.

Here's your deplorables t-shirt. Beer and cookies are on the snack table.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 2, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Bad news, you are no longer left-wing enough for liberals.
> 
> Here's your deplorables t-shirt. Beer and cookies are on the snack table.


Thanks for the warm welcome and invitation. Can we combine left social positions with right wing statehood?


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 2, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome and invitation. Can we combine left social positions with right wing statehood?


Sure we can go for a small stream-lined Federal government and states can enact whatever social positions they want within their borders. But they shouldn't be financing and influencing the elections in other states pushing their views. That's for the citizens of each state to decide.

To change people's minds you need to attend the monthly meetups where we all shoot targets at the gun range and then finish off the day eating lots of tasty BBQ meats and drinking beer and we argue our viewpoints with one another.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 2, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Sure we can go for a small stream-lined Federal government and states can enact whatever social positions they want within their borders. But they shouldn't be financing and influencing the elections in other states pushing their views. That's for the citizens of each state to decide.
> 
> To change people's minds you need to attend the monthly meetups where we all shoot targets at the gun range and then finish off the day eating lots of tasty BBQ meats and drinking beer and we argue our viewpoints with one another.


Would you allow for freedom of association?


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 2, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Would you allow for freedom of association?


Outside of the intolerant left, the vast majority of people don't care. Unless you are associating with a hate group or are a pedo who wants to "associate" with kids.


----------



## lokomelo (Aug 3, 2022)

USA just provoked China, no one really knows what the goals are. This was made under Democrat government witch, in theory, is the least lunatic side of US politics.

So I don't know where is this division, if both sides are highly aggressive and don't care if tomorrow will be a nuclear tomorrow.

Maybe the division is poor and rich, or minorities and white, but I'm sure now that Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same thing.


----------



## ScaryHobbit (Aug 3, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> And thus my point is proven.


What point? I don't believe I was replying to you.



Dakitten said:


> Riots aren't the same as a coup,


So you are okay with your side causing violence, as long as - and since it's - "not a coup"?



Dakitten said:


> injustice isn't the same as insurrection,


Are you claiming that injustice is better than "insurrection"? Do you actually _want_ injustice?
Or if you are actually against injustice, do you believe it is "just" to burn down or vandalize the neighborhoods of innocent people in response to political issues?





Dakitten said:


> and the far left is not the same as the far right.


How so? What does this mean?
Who exactly is "far left" or "far right"? What if someone is neither?
Or is it whichever side you are on are "the good guys" and anyone who disagrees with you are "the bad guys"?



Dakitten said:


> It even ends with "Skip the pointing out of Nazi apologetics, lets get back to center." Golden.


Oh, now it makes sense.
You just wanted to have the thread go off-topic, and me calling it out made you mad.


----------



## ScaryHobbit (Aug 3, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Fascism is, by definition, a "far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism


Citing Wikipedia in any grade school or college paper will earn you a failing grade, every time.


----------



## Lacius (Aug 3, 2022)

ScaryHobbit said:


> Citing Wikipedia in any grade school or college paper will earn you a failing grade, every time.


Addressing people as miserable little pissants would also get me a failing grade, so I guess it's a good thing this isn't a fucking paper.

It should also be noted that Wikipedia is the greatest compendium of information known to exist on the planet. We don't cite it in papers because it's a compendium of sources and not a primary source, not because it's somehow unreliable or inaccurate.

Be sure to let me know if/when you decide to actually add something of substance to the discourse. Piss off until then.


----------



## MariArch (Aug 3, 2022)

Secession


----------



## ScaryHobbit (Aug 3, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Addressing people as miserable little pissants would also get me a failing grade, so I guess it's a good thing this isn't a fucking paper.
> 
> It should also be noted that Wikipedia is the greatest compendium of information known to exist on the planet. We don't cite it in papers because it's a compendium of sources and not a primary source, not because it's somehow unreliable or inaccurate.
> 
> Be sure to let me know if/when you decide to actually add something of substance to the discourse. Piss off until then.


Yes, Wikipedia is so great - that anyone can edit its pages at any time to say anything regardless of how factual it actually is.
Which is precisely why it's banned in papers.

Your massive coping and your foul language suggest I'm over the target.

Not that I'll convince you regardless.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 3, 2022)

Creamu said:


> First of all I am positioned counter to the conservative position.


You come off as an "enlightened centrist" a lot more often than not while sniping at the left, which is absolutely ally to the conservative position... which is why you get those folks flocking to your threads rather often.


Creamu said:


> Yascha Mounk is as mainstream academic source as you can possibly get.


He's a bit of a weird duck shifting from democratic socialist to off-nationalist, but I'll yield that he is a better starting point than some of your other threads. My generation seems to shift positions alot.


Creamu said:


> I am a centrist in so far that I want the will of the peoples of this planet reflected in their own governments. This excludes of course international merchants that want to benifit from rooted people against their interests. In this sense I am an absolute centrist.


We all know, comrade. You've made it very clear.


Creamu said:


> We live in outrageous times.


Agreed.


Creamu said:


> Can you demonstrate this for me, I don't know what you mean.
> 
> Are you saying I want to derail my own threads?


You're the one who lead Lacius down the odd rabbit hole of "the Dems DID take out one political rival!" and then tried to justify it with "the USA does tons of bad stuff! They made the bomb and used it, after all!" as though it turns the situation on its head as simply as that. Most world conflicts aren't completely black and white, but holy hell, that was a RIDE to watch you try and victimize the Nazis.



Creamu said:


> I agree. I did anticipate that whatever ones perspective on my take was, that it would be met with humour (in retrospect obviously a miscalculation on my part). While there should be place in threads for humour and excursions, it is important to respect the structual integrity of a thread. As I saw that explaining my position wasn't going to get back on topic any time soon I aborted the discussion.


I'd have more respect for you if you just nutted up and accepted you made a mistake with a bad take, rather than "aborting the discussion".


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 3, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> yeah but that's not enough to classify humans into races.
> 
> Biologically speaking, race mixing can hav very detrimental results, just look at dogs with multiple breeds and how they have all sorts of problems. This doesn't happen with humans, the result of a white human breeding with a black human is another perfectly normal human being.
> 
> ...


Just tagging this one in here for the giggles, holy cow is there some olympic level mental gymnastics going on here. Going back to SMF's post and your prior reply too, you're saying CRT is bad because race doesn't even exist at all? Wow... I wish someone had told non-white folk that before slavery, genocide of natives in the Americas on the whole, Jim Crow laws, the Holocaust, etc!

Even if the genetic component of race is not very viable, there is obviously a cultural concept of race that has been and still is quite active.



Acid_Snake said:


> - No they don't need to overthrow an election, they just steal it with fake mail-in ballots, like the ones my cuban family received despite not being citizens.


Cute anecdote, but investigations have largely proven this to not only be wrong, but a lot of voter fraud was actually attempted by the conservatives (not even including the textbook voter intimidation tactics everywhere). Even when working on that election myself, we were subjected to constant public harassment from one particular party, but I'm proud to say our county was very professional in the face of adversity. Side note, even if your cuban relatives did receive mail-in ballots, they couldn't have used them without being registered in the system.



Acid_Snake said:


> - Fascism is not right-wing or left-wing, classifying fascism as right-wing when Mussilini himself used Lenin's 1917 revolution as an example of fascism, stupidity much?. Someone uses words without knowing what they mean...
> Anyhow, Mussolini, the father of fascism and a well known radical socialist, would be very happy to see that you are one of his most advanced students.


Fun fact: Mussolini was expelled from the Italian Socialist Party prior to taking power, at which point his allies spoke out against the teachings of Marx. He may have used the socialist title to gather power, but his methods were far from any sort of socialism anybody would take seriously, including the Italians he butchered! He was a nationalist, and a fan of Pluto's "The Republic" (uh oh...) and saw other countries as enemies to the Italian economy. Hell, by the end of everything, his party was called the "Partito Fascista Repubblicano", aka the FASCIST REPUBLICAN PARTY! Kinda telling, no? He was also then shot by communists. OOPS, they must have targeted one of their own! 

Seriously, stop being willfully ignorant and malicious. NOBODY wants a police state of murder-censors, save maybe some religious zealots. This is extremely true of the racial minorities and the left as a whole, but Neo-Nazis do seem to still affiliate with a party that has done a lot to promote them in recent years...



Acid_Snake said:


> - Anyone who is right-wing, conservative or christian. You literally go around saying that everyone in these groups must be eliminated from society, and you use false flag attacks and accuse them of violence (where there's none) to justify this extermination. Exactly like Hitler did to get rid of his opposition.


Nobody has called for your death, comrade. Nobody has attempted your murder, least of all leftists from this form, and you're not hiding in an attic from Joe Bidin's deathstrike drones. Also as he was allies with the above, surprise surprise Hitler was extremely right-wing.



Acid_Snake said:


> - That's not objectively true. Unless you have a list of every lie ever said by every president, in which case you'd find yourself having to point fingers in your direction too. Now I'm not saying Trump never lied, I'm not a cultist like you who would suck it up to a politician, that's just sad. But you can't say "this is the most lying president ever" and be taken seriously with such a childish statement. Also we all know how much the left hates the truth, you've already lied a few times in this thread and you keep lying despite people calling you out on your bullshit. You guys can't even stand *basic truths* such as the *fact* that only *women* can get *pregnant*, and you dare call the other side liers? You manipulate information and change history and definitions to fit your truthless ideals. You even behave like Grade A fascists while calling others fascists, which is exactly what the fascists (Hitler and Mussolini) did to gain power.


Nobody here has said that the left is innocent of any wrongdoing at any point in time ever. I'm fairly certain most leftists in this forum are rather dissatisfied with Democratic leadership on the whole! This doesn't mean, however, that they are "just as bad". There is no equivalency here, the conservative party has dropped the pretext and embraced totalitarianism. Several key figures have called for a theocratic approach to the law, the rights of women and minorities have been attacked, and Trump is a self admitted sexual assailant amidst a crowd of high ranking right wing sexual assailants.

Also, as mentioned above... Mussolini's party was literally the "Fascist Republican Party", so... kinda hard to not call him a Fascist when he did it himself. Its right there, before "Republican Party" for some reason. Get rekt.



Acid_Snake said:


> - The democratic party held power for 8 years after that piece of shit Bush fucked shit up in the middle east. What did you guys do to fix the issue? Oh right, bomb the hell out of them. More drone strikes were issues by Obama than any republican president, but hey they gave him the Nobel Peace Prize (they gave it to Hitler too though...).
> Then came in *Trump with historical paece treaties* between Isreal and Saudi Arabia, and historical peace treaties between North and South Korea. *What is Biden doing *with that again? Oh right, *there's bombings* in Gaza *again*, and there's also bombings in the Korean border again.


Considering the horrible human rights violations in Israel and Saudi Arabia, I think I speak for most folk when I say it wasn't the best look nor the best decision to negotiate with them or Putin.

Again, most leftists were plenty appalled by Obama, quite a few of us don't think he should have even been nominated for a Nobel prize, but he was still small potatoes to what came before and after. Bad is not the same as worse. Also, Hitler was only nominated posthumously as a joke, so... wrong again?



Acid_Snake said:


> With respect, you sound like an iliteraly braindead amoeba.


Said the pot to the very patient school teacher~


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 3, 2022)

ScaryHobbit said:


> What point? I don't believe I was replying to you.


I wouldn't care if you were, I was using you to point out that Cemu's threads attract a rather nasty crowd.



ScaryHobbit said:


> So you are okay with your side causing violence, as long as - and since it's - "not a coup"?





ScaryHobbit said:


> Are you claiming that injustice is better than "insurrection"? Do you actually _want_ injustice?
> 
> Or if you are actually against injustice, do you believe it is "just" to burn down or vandalize the neighborhoods of innocent people in response to political issues?


Depends on the situation, but yeah violence itself isn't some sort of ultimate evil. The Antifa movement had plenty of good reasons to riot, and while the loss of life is always tragic, the lack of justice for decades is more to blame than anything. It sucks that it got to that point, but quiet protests were not enough to draw due attention.

That being said, the insurrection was in response to a small group of extremists committing a knowing act of treason under a false pretense. Those dumb clucks WISH they had Antifa's numbers and righteousness behind them, but so it goes... To jail in larger quantities, with any luck.

To be fair, I've no objections to Antifa members guilty of crimes being subject to the law either, as they did disrupt the peace and brought a bad look to a largely peaceful movement, even if it was understandable as to why.



ScaryHobbit said:


> How so? What does this mean?
> Who exactly is "far left" or "far right"? What if someone is neither?
> Or is it whichever side you are on are "the good guys" and anyone who disagrees with you are "the bad guys"?


This isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. I don't care about somebody's politics or religion until it is used as a cudgel against others. Trump supporters who wear stupid shirts and spam forums with silly rants? Annoying, but harmless. Supporters of the march in Charlottesville who were accessories to murder and spoke out against Jewish individuals? Bad guys with a bad cause.  Antifa members who needlessly burned down buildings out of frustration? Bad guys with a good cause. @TraderPatTX insisting that women who have abortions are murderers and that he knows better than they do about how their bodies function? Bad guy who needs to unplug for a couple years.

See? Simple. The left and right stuff comes from more intricate political views, and I can enjoy some boxing with good faith actors about social policy, but bad isn't hard to understand.



ScaryHobbit said:


> Oh, now it makes sense.
> You just wanted to have the thread go off-topic, and me calling it out made you mad.


This goes back to my opening statement with you. I wasn't the one who derailed the topic to compare the ills of Democrats to Nazis, I just felt it bad taste for the one who did so to switch gears just because he wasn't getting the sorts of reactions he seemed to be looking for when he did it.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 3, 2022)

Social constructs are real, so if I think I am right then that's all that matters.  BLM would have done better to target DC than to target their own neighbors, but then they'd be committing a horrible crime of threatening democracy--the same crime that every government commits right before being destabilized (then "saved") by America.  Apparently American propaganda is the best propaganda, but those who swallow it whole don't recognize their own supreme nationalism.  "Being ugly is noble" as long as you have something to be angry about.  This thread really does attract nasty people.  Look what you did @Creamu !


----------



## Jayro (Aug 3, 2022)

Creamu said:


> What would you propose as a solution?


Just keep letting them embarrass themselves with their baseless conspiracy theories, hate-filled rhetoric, and their propaganda built upon lies... Their house of cards won't stand long. It's already losing traction fast.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 3, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> You come off as an "enlightened centrist" a lot more often than not while sniping at the left, which is absolutely ally to the conservative position...


We can debate how much I qualify as a centrist. The conservative position I have often described as being the same as the left only with more latency. Apart from that, america is a mess, who would want to conserve that, makes no sense.


Dakitten said:


> which is why you get those folks flocking to your threads rather often.


Interesting. I can assure you that I find the conservative position more objectionable than the left.


Dakitten said:


> He's a bit of a weird duck shifting from democratic socialist to off-nationalist, but I'll yield that he is a better starting point than some of your other threads. My generation seems to shift positions alot.


Okay, would you also agree that I have diverse sources from left to right, mainstream to more local and nieche sources?


Dakitten said:


> We all know, comrade. You've made it very clear.


Good.


Dakitten said:


> You're the one who lead Lacius down the odd rabbit hole of "the Dems DID take out one political rival!" and then tried to justify it with "the USA does tons of bad stuff! They made the bomb and used it, after all!" as though it turns the situation on its head as simply as that. Most world conflicts aren't completely black and white, but holy hell, that was a RIDE to watch you try and victimize the Nazis.


Wouldn't you agree that america is corrupt and morally on shaky grounds regardless what the plebs voted in any given time?


Dakitten said:


> I'd have more respect for you if you just nutted up and accepted you made a mistake with a bad take, rather than "aborting the discussion".


I aborted the discussion within this thread. I suggested continuing the discussion in a dedicated thread.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 3, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Look what you did @Creamu !


What have I done... : O


Jayro said:


> Just keep letting them embarrass themselves with their baseless conspiracy theories, hate-filled rhetoric, and their propaganda built upon lies... Their house of cards won't stand long. It's already losing traction fast.


Why not speed up the process then?


----------



## Jayro (Aug 3, 2022)

Creamu said:


> What have I done... : O
> 
> Why not speed up the process then?


We already are, hardly anyone will vote red in 2024 compared to 2016 and 2020. Plus factoring in 4 years worth of newly-eligible young voters, and it's a blue wave to victory again.


----------



## mrgone (Aug 3, 2022)

I know this is not really a viable answer, but
as a Shadowrun player for nearly 30 years
i am for the separation into UCAS(cool USA + Canada) and CAS (uncool USA)


----------



## Iamapirate (Aug 3, 2022)

From what I can gather as a foreigner it seems many Americans lack in commonality and are isolated in their own echo chambers, greatly exacerbated by social media. Instead of sharing same universal values, everyone who is even slightly different from me in ideology is stupid/evil/traitor and as such must be reeducated and suppressed. It's sad because this is not the real world.


----------



## Iamapirate (Aug 3, 2022)

Jayro said:


> We already are, hardly anyone will vote red in 2024 compared to 2016 and 2020. Plus factoring in 4 years worth of newly-eligible young voters, and it's a blue wave to victory again.


How can you say this when Biden is not only historically unpopular but Trump is actually beating him in 2024 polling (the aggregate)


----------



## Iamapirate (Aug 3, 2022)

Lacius said:


> Please tell the Republican Party that votes and democracy matter. They're the ones who tried to overturn the last election because they didn't like the results.
> 
> You're embarrassing yourself with this "I know you are but what am I?" bullshit.


I wish Trump could've taken his loss well like Clinton and the Democrats did am I right?


----------



## Lacius (Aug 3, 2022)

ScaryHobbit said:


> Yes, Wikipedia is so great - that anyone can edit its pages at any time to say anything regardless of how factual it actually is.
> Which is precisely why it's banned in papers.
> 
> Your massive coping and your foul language suggest I'm over the target.
> ...


That isn't why Wikipedia isn't cited in papers. I already explained the real reason.

On just about every important topic that would likely come up in a research paper, there are usually experts in that field that get notifications when a particular page is altered. If those alterations don't meet Wikipedia's rigorous source and citation standards, it's reverted very quickly.



Iamapirate said:


> I wish Trump could've taken his loss well like Clinton and the Democrats did am I right?


Clinton and the Democrats conceded the 2016 election literally hours after it was called (it was the middle of the night when it was called), lol.

On the other hand, Trump still hasn't conceded the 2020 election, and most Republicans believe the debunked conspiracy theory that it was stolen. It has been nearly two years.

You look ridiculous when you act like these elections are at all comparable.


----------



## Jayro (Aug 3, 2022)

Iamapirate said:


> How can you say this when Biden is not only historically unpopular but Trump is actually beating him in 2024 polling (the aggregate)


Trump will be in prison soon, so he's not a threat any longer. I'm more worried about the Magas electing DeSantis.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 3, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Trump will be in prison soon, so he's not a threat any longer. I'm more worried about the Magas electing DeSantis.


Are you sure they are going to do that? Please no DeSantis nooo


----------



## Jayro (Aug 3, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Are you sure they are going to do that? Please no DeSantis nooo


I've been following the Jan 6th hearings, so yeah.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 3, 2022)

Jayro said:


> I've been following the Jan 6th hearings, so yeah.


They are just teasing you. I'm sure trump will be able to a candidate for 2024.


----------



## Jayro (Aug 4, 2022)

Creamu said:


> They are just teasing you. I'm sure trump will be able to a candidate for 2024.


Technically, he CAN run for office from prison.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 4, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> - Anyone who is right-wing, conservative or christian. You literally go around saying that everyone in these groups must be eliminated from society, and you use false flag attacks and accuse them of violence (where there's none) to justify this extermination. Exactly like Hitler did to get rid of his opposition.


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 

Like Hitler did ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

There was some kid calling for my death on Call of Duty because he's a sore loser and I kicked his ass. Just like Hitler ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Better watch out. Stay inside your house the left is after you. Your life is in danger. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hajajjajjajdnjdjdkkdjdj


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 4, 2022)

lokomelo said:


> USA just provoked China, no one really knows what the goals are. This was made under Democrat government witch, in theory, is the least lunatic side of US politics.
> 
> So I don't know where is this division, if both sides are highly aggressive and don't care if tomorrow will be a nuclear tomorrow.
> 
> Maybe the division is poor and rich, or minorities and white, but I'm sure now that Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same thing.


Are people seeing the difference between real war mongering and establishing new trade deals (China) and opening dialog (North Korea) during the previous four years?


----------



## Zyvyn (Aug 4, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The corruption has always been here. We are just waking up to how far it really goes with more waking up every day.


Its literally 80% of our government.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 4, 2022)

Zyvyn said:


> Its literally 80% of our government.


They have been working on it for over 100 years, all the while putting us to sleep with entertainment and pitting us against each other.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 4, 2022)

Zyvyn said:


> Its literally 80% of our government.





TraderPatTX said:


> They have been working on it for over 100 years, all the while putting us to sleep with entertainment and pitting us against each other.


How do you see things develope for the current rulers? Will they be able to hold power for long and if not what is coming to them?


----------



## smf (Aug 5, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The CDC was caught changing the definition of vaccine.


You were caught pretending that the CDC were caught.

The CDC definition was misunderstood by idiots and so they removed some of the wording that was causing the idiots problems.

Immunity is on a scale, but idiots think it's 0 or 100%. Don't you think the CDC has an obligation to tell people information that their tiny minds can cope with?



TraderPatTX said:


> They have been working on it for over 100 years, all the while putting us to sleep with entertainment and pitting us against each other.



You being triggered, is different to you being pitted against others.

The only people pitting people against each other are people like:


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 9, 2022)

Creamu said:


> How do you see things develope for the current rulers? Will they be able to hold power for long and if not what is coming to them?


The current rulers will not be in power for long. Too many people are waking up. Nothing can stop what is coming.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 9, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The current rulers will not be in power for long. Too many people are waking up. Nothing can stop what is coming.


What are they going to do about it?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 9, 2022)

smf said:


> You were caught pretending that the CDC were caught.
> 
> The CDC definition was misunderstood by idiots and so they removed some of the wording that was causing the idiots problems.
> 
> ...



You gonna use the same lame excuse for the changing of the definition for "recession"?

Sure, Alex Jones has so much to gain by dividing people and not the politicians who need a divided nation to win elections and control us. I can't believe you are actually this dumb.



Creamu said:


> What are they going to do about it?


I don't understand the question. Who is they?


----------



## Creamu (Aug 9, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I don't understand the question. Who is they?


The people who are waking up. Waking up in and of itself is not a effective move.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> The people who are waking up. Waking up in and of itself is not a effective move.


But it is.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> But it is.


Waking up is the lowest effort move possible.


----------



## smf (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You gonna use the same lame excuse for the changing of the definition for "recession"?
> 
> Sure, Alex Jones has so much to gain by dividing people and not the politicians who need a divided nation to win elections and control us. I can't believe you are actually this dumb.



What has changed?

_In the United States, a recession is defined by the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) as "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the market, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales"_



TraderPatTX said:


> Maybe you could actually have a serious adult conversation instead of slinging insults like a petulant child?





Creamu said:


> The people who are waking up. Waking up in and of itself is not a effective move.


The people aren't "waking up". Trump barely won the presidency, then he lost the presidency, now everything has gone to shit and are looking to the president to fix it. But Biden was only ever elected to prevent Trump being elected.

What do you think they should be waking up from?


----------



## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> The people aren't "waking up".
> 
> What do you think they should be waking up from?


Oh, they are waking up. After funding the biggest medical project fighting AIDS, efforts that could have gone to the research for children with cancer for example, people can now watch the easily containable spread of monkeypox (skin to skin), while their liberties were invaded for the inplausible containment of COVID. That is going to be exremely costly for those who want them asleep.


----------



## smf (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Oh, they are waking up. After funding the biggest medical project fighting AIDS, efforts that could have gone to the research for children with cancer for example, people can now watch the easily containable spread of monkeypox (skin to skin), while their liberties were invaded for the inplausible containment of COVID. That is going to be exremely costly for those who want them asleep.


It sounds like you are having a cheese dream.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThinkOfTheChildren

What exactly is your point about monkeypox and covid? As it seems unclear to me.


----------



## osaka35 (Aug 10, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Technically, he CAN run for office from prison.


unfortunately so. There is no law preventing a convicted felon from running for president. Just from voting for one.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

osaka35 said:


> unfortunately so. There is no law preventing a convicted felon from running for president. Just from voting for one.


But Are not most Fellons US elected. Just not imprisoned because they payed way out or have a backer who cover up for them?


----------



## tabzer (Aug 10, 2022)

osaka35 said:


> unfortunately so. There is no law preventing a convicted felon from running for president. Just from voting for one.


Why run for office if no one can vote for you?


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Why run for office if no one can vote for you?


I would think to get cred to push for later office. Most incubus win after all. Right now a old and I would say lazy president and a prior muti bankrup and lier and probably a felon for not stopping 2020 raid. So worse and worser. So can really anyone say the criminal don't run the Gov. Really


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Waking up is the lowest effort move possible.


Waking up is only the first steps of many steps. Waking up leads to action.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Waking up is only the first steps of many steps. Waking up leads to action.


But very few are willing and able to admit the truth of that statement.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> What has changed?
> 
> _In the United States, a recession is defined by the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) as "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the market, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales"_
> 
> ...


The last 10 times we have had 2 negative GDP quarters, a recession was called. For some reason, that has changed. Tell me you actually know the history you were actually alive when it happened.

So Biden wasn't elected to be a leader? He wasn't elected to run the country? I seem to remember many campaign promises of eliminating Covid and not raising taxes on anybody making less than $400k. You claim to be against disinformation/misinformation, yet people lie to your face and you still bow down to them.

"Biden was elected because I have TDS so bad and the mean tweets made me rageful."
-smf


----------



## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> It sounds like you are having a cheese dream.
> 
> https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThinkOfTheChildren


Well, you will never see such a trope for homosexuals unless it is ironic.


smf said:


> What exactly is your point about monkeypox and covid? As it seems unclear to me.


What in particular.



TraderPatTX said:


> Waking up is only the first steps of many steps. Waking up leads to action.


Preparedness leads to action.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The last 10 times we have had 2 negative GDP quarters, a recession was called. For some reason, that has changed. Tell me you actually know the history you were actually alive when it happened.
> 
> So Biden wasn't elected to be a leader? He wasn't elected to run the country? I seem to remember many campaign promises of eliminating Covid and not raising taxes on anybody making less than $400k. You claim to be against disinformation/misinformation, yet people lie to your face and you still bow down to them.
> 
> ...


Seriously believe what you want but for your information I am 54 years old know both Joe Biden and Donald Trump are corrupt. First Joe has used a lot of people $ from a lot of places to finance his pocket. Donald has filled bancupy to much to name and both have lied to the people. I wish so much someone would step forward who at least could help us and tell the damn truth but I know it won't happen!


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Preparedness leads to action.


Waking up leads to preparedness.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Waking up leads to preparedness.


But who is the criminal? If you go after people who work day to day but are blinded by the lies or the one's who lie and cheats all. One is easy the blind the lier is always protected and paranoid.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Waking up leads to preparedness.


What will they be preparing for?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Randqalan said:


> But who is the criminal? If you go after people who work day to day but are blinded by the lies or the one's who lie and cheats all. One is easy the blind the lier is always protected and paranoid.


That's where discernment comes in.



Creamu said:


> What will they be preparing for?


Taking action like what we've seen with parents at school boards and during the primaries. People are running for and winning local elections. Local action = national impact.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> That's where discernment comes in.


To me to simple an answer. So may not be informed. So of course won't give a damn. Some might even convert back the lies.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Randqalan said:


> To me to simple an answer. So may not be informed. So of course won't give a damn. Some might even convert back the lies.


Why do people talk like people lying is a new concept? It's always been around, but suddenly, now the left wants to censor all speech they do not agree with. Where does the censorship stop? Who determines what is a lie and what isn't? That's why censorship, especially by government or oligarchic corporations is a dangerous slope to go down. Unfortunately, we've already started our decent to authoritarianism. This is what people are waking up to every day.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Why do people talk like people lying is a new concept? It's always been around, but suddenly, now the left wants to censor all speech they do not agree with. Where does the censorship stop? Who determines what is a lie and what isn't? That's why censorship, especially by government or oligarchic corporations is a dangerous slope to go down. Unfortunately, we've already started our decent to authoritarianism. This is what people are waking up to every day.


Did I ever say they could not lie. No I said I don't like or trust them. Republican or Democrats.  What is a lie is when someone says they have or will do something and don't.


----------



## Youkai (Aug 10, 2022)

probably about 90% or even more of all humans on this planet are either stupid as hell or just completely ignorant to everything (which also is pretty much stupid) and thats not only in the US.

Even those who think they are the only ones knowing the truth (no only talkin about the conspiracy theorist but also pretty much every other organisation no matter what) all never think further then their own agenda and even though sometimes it "could" be possible to somehow get an agreement with proper facts and a good discussion, noone would listen anyways.

Its like everyone knows that if we go on as we do the world will sooner or later be so bad that we can't life on it anymore but then again most people don't care and others who care a lot want everyone to stop living yet for the chance to have a better future for the next generations ... I have to say yes we need to do something but I also wouldn't want to stop everything completly like traveling or heating my flat in winter or whatever even knowing it might be an important step into the right direction.

Same with everything else like most Trum Voters properly want the "American freedom" which also includs killing whoever they want with their weapons including the plante, which they feel thretened by people like Biden who tries to somehow manage to get all sides under one cover which can never work really well as usually this makes everyone feel angry as you are either for or against them and nothing inbetween.


Humans just suck


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Randqalan said:


> Did I ever say they could not lie. No I said I don't like or trust them. Republican or Democrats.  What is a lie is when someone says they have or will do something and don't.


But why is the left freaking out so much. Politicians and the media have been lying to us for decades, but now they are crying about it. Something changed to make them come out of the authoritarian closet and fly their fascist freak flags.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

Youkai said:


> probably about 90% or even more of all humans on this planet are either stupid as hell or just completely ignorant to everything (which also is pretty much stupid) and thats not only in the US.
> 
> Even those who think they are the only ones knowing the truth (no only talkin about the conspiracy theorist but also pretty much every other organisation no matter what) all never think further then their own agenda and even though sometimes it "could" be possible to somehow get an agreement with proper facts and a good discussion, noone would listen anyways.
> 
> ...


A few typos like me but is my thoughts exactly. No side is completely wrong or completely correct. I just wished America would wake really up and see that we are all in the same land. Enough of this BS left right crap our government wants us devided. Always easier to rule by putting people against each other.

I am not freaking out I expect this really by both dem and rep.


TraderPatTX said:


> But why is the left freaking out so much. Politicians and the media have been lying to us for decades, but now they are crying about it. Something changed to make them come out of the authoritarian closet and fly their fascist freak flags.



It called internet we can fact check but even some of it is lies as anyone can tell. News media always looks for dark it draws most attention. Or most wanted like scene News.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Taking action like what we've seen with parents at school boards and during the primaries. People are running for and winning local elections. Local action = national impact.


Haha. No. You will not elect an illegitimate government away.


----------



## Randqalan (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Haha. No. You will not elect an illegitimate government away.


Very true.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Randqalan said:


> A few typos like me but is my thoughts exactly. No side is completely wrong or completely correct. I just wished America would wake really up and see that we are all in the same land. Enough of this BS left right crap our government wants us devided. Always easier to rule by putting people against each other.
> 
> I am not freaking out I expect this really by both dem and rep.
> 
> ...


The media and fact checkers are some of the biggest liars. Remember when Russian collusion was fact? Remember when Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation? They are outing themselves and now have 11% approval with the people.


----------



## Jayro (Aug 10, 2022)

osaka35 said:


> unfortunately so. There is no law preventing a convicted felon from running for president. Just from voting for one.


That never made sense to me though. And if a felon did win president, what then? It's never been done before, and I don't think there's anything written if it were to happen.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

osaka35 said:


> unfortunately so. There is no law preventing a convicted felon from running for president. Just from voting for one.


No law can change the requirements to be president or vice president. That is why presidential term limits had to be a constitutional amendment. Same applies for Congress and every other elected office outlined in the Constitution.


----------



## Youkai (Aug 11, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The media and fact checkers are some of the biggest liars. Remember when Russian collusion was fact? Remember when Hunter's laptop was Russian disinformation? They are outing themselves and now have 11% approval with the people.



Same as allways they are not always right but also definietly not always wrong.

not sure about America though but in my Country they sometimes tend to not tell you everything to put you into the line they want to see you but its not like they are telling something completly wrong just taking your chance (if you don't research yourself) to make up your own opinion upon all available informations.

(different topic but same with Corona, in my country they were like "100 ppl a day are dying its so bad we need to vaccinate our children" then you look at official statistics saying yes 100ppl a day plus the usualy 3000 that die because of other stuff and also only 8 children died within the last 3 years due to covid .... so the panic they cause is completely bullshit at least directed at the "poor" kids that have to suffer because people don't take the vaccine)


----------



## AHB (Aug 11, 2022)

I'll just leave this here as an accurate summary of the current state of affairs:



Spoiler: source is The Empty Man (2018 sequel series to the 2014 comic book miniseries of the same name)


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 12, 2022)

Youkai said:


> Same as allways they are not always right but also definietly not always wrong.
> 
> not sure about America though but in my Country they sometimes tend to not tell you everything to put you into the line they want to see you but its not like they are telling something completly wrong just taking your chance (if you don't research yourself) to make up your own opinion upon all available informations.
> 
> (different topic but same with Corona, in my country they were like "100 ppl a day are dying its so bad we need to vaccinate our children" then you look at official statistics saying yes 100ppl a day plus the usualy 3000 that die because of other stuff and also only 8 children died within the last 3 years due to covid .... so the panic they cause is completely bullshit at least directed at the "poor" kids that have to suffer because people don't take the vaccine)


Of course our corporate media has to tell little truths. It makes passing off their big lies so much easier.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 13, 2022)

Jayro said:


> That never made sense to me though. And if a felon did win president, what then? It's never been done before, and I don't think there's anything written if it were to happen.


Eugine Debs proudly won some whole percentage points from inside a cell!



TraderPatTX said:


> Waking up is only the first steps of many steps. Waking up leads to action.





TraderPatTX said:


> Of course our corporate media has to tell little truths. It makes passing off their big lies so much easier.


Take the red pill, Neo. See the world for what it truly is. Kansas is going bye-bye.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 13, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> Eugine Debs proudly won some whole percentage points from inside a cell!
> 
> 
> 
> Take the red pill, Neo. See the world for what it truly is. Kansas is going bye-bye.


You can choose to keep defending the corporate media all you want. They need all the clicks they can get from you. Remember, they are rich and you are not. So the next time you rail against the rich, I will remind you how you defend them.


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 13, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You can choose to keep defending the corporate media all you want. They need all the clicks they can get from you. Remember, they are rich and you are not. So the next time you rail against the rich, I will remind you how you defend them.


Pretty sure Eugene Debs was the victim of corporate media 'till his last breath, comrade... unless you're getting defensive over my red pill comment, in which case I must be the one to break it to you that you are in fact the problem and not the solution to the country's ails. You're waking up in the minority, your pills are getting harder for the rest of the sane populous to swallow, and the most hopeful thing about the United States is that collectively your kind of ignorance is being recognized and denounced~

Get good.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 13, 2022)

"The official narrative is the correct narrative." 

Your "officials" aren't speaking words that represent reality.  They speak the words that they want to see in history books.  Spouting propaganda bolstering the US official position represents the desire to believe, not what is believed.  Remember, you already elected Trump, which undermines the entire institution that got him elected.  You never fixed the problem, you just try to handwave it as some sort of fluke, and somehow people are smarter now.  The broken system is going to fix itself because politicians are inherently good?  Ya, right.  Pandora's box has been opened and you are trying to find shelter in an empty box.  

Tell us about sanity.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 13, 2022)

tabzer said:


> "The official narrative is the correct narrative."
> 
> Your "officials" aren't speaking words that represent reality.  They speak the words that they want to see in history books.  Spouting propaganda bolstering the US official position represents the desire to believe, not what is believed.  Remember, you already elected Trump, which undermines the entire institution that got him elected.  You never fixed the problem, you just try to handwave it as some sort of fluke, and somehow people are smarter now.  The broken system is going to fix itself because politicians are inherently good?  Ya, right.  Pandora's box has been opened and you are trying to find shelter in an empty box.
> 
> Tell us about sanity.


Is there a way back from the brink?


----------



## tabzer (Aug 14, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Is there a way back from the brink?


For who?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 14, 2022)

Dakitten said:


> Pretty sure Eugene Debs was the victim of corporate media 'till his last breath, comrade... unless you're getting defensive over my red pill comment, in which case I must be the one to break it to you that you are in fact the problem and not the solution to the country's ails. You're waking up in the minority, your pills are getting harder for the rest of the sane populous to swallow, and the most hopeful thing about the United States is that collectively your kind of ignorance is being recognized and denounced~
> 
> Get good.


I'm am really going to enjoy watching you reeee on these threads over the next few months.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 14, 2022)

tabzer said:


> For who?


For those who rule at the moment.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 14, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I'm am really going to enjoy watching you reeee on these threads over the next few months.


You mean like this:


----------



## Dakitten (Aug 14, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I'm am really going to enjoy watching you reeee on these threads over the next few months.


And again, you ignore the substance and jerk yourself off on copium.  Pity you can't ever back up your nonsense, but that is okay since I've been enjoying watching you make a fool of yourself since you joined~


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 14, 2022)

Creamu said:


> You mean like this:



This is how I picture DAKitten, LainaGabranth, Nothereed, Xzi, Dark_Ansem when they reply to my comments with zero facts or substance. All they have are insults.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 14, 2022)

Creamu said:


> For those who rule at the moment.


We don't know who rules.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 14, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> This is how I picture DAKitten, LainaGabranth, Nothereed, Xzi, Dark_Ansem when they reply to my comments with zero facts or substance. All they have are insults.


If your going to  mention us @Dakitten @LainaGabranth @Xzi @Dark_Ansem
At least have the balls to do it.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 14, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> If your going to  mention us @Dakitten @LainaGabranth @Xzi @Dark_Ansem
> At least have the balls to do it.


I mean we've established that he's a coward. Trader does not adopt any real positions based on evidence, he just thinks it's still 2014 and that "owning the libs" is a personality.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 14, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> when they reply to my comments with zero facts or substance.  All they have are insults.


You mean when we reply to your posts which contain zero facts or substance.  Why waste more time than I have to calling a dumbass a dumbass?  I've got better things to do than school pre-teens on the internet who sleep with a Trump blowup doll.  If the Biden supporters here were half as deranged or divorced from reality, I'd jump down their throats too.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 14, 2022)

tabzer said:


> We don't know who rules.


That is true, but we can make decent assumptions about them.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> That is true, but we can make decent assumptions about them.



I don't know what I believe.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

tabzer said:


> I don't know what I believe.


For now all you need to know is I'm not a victim here, because you are pathetic and can't victimize anyone.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 15, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> If your going to  mention us @Dakitten @LainaGabranth @Xzi @Dark_Ansem
> At least have the balls to do it.


@Dakitten, @LainaGabranth, @Xzi, @Dark_Ansem and yourself have nothing of value to say. All you have are insults. Zero substance.

Is that better, sport?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 15, 2022)

Xzi said:


> You mean when we reply to your posts which contain zero facts or substance.  Why waste more time than I have to calling a dumbass a dumbass?  I've got better things to do than school pre-teens on the internet who sleep with a Trump blowup doll.  If the Biden supporters here were half as deranged or divorced from reality, I'd jump down their throats too.


Once again, you are incapable of refuting what I say with facts. I'd bet it's because you don't know how to research on your own and need the corporate state-run media to feed you what they want you to know. All you know is regurgitation.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> That is true, but we can make decent assumptions about them.


If you want to know who rules, look at who we are not allowed to call out on social media without getting banned.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 15, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If you want to know who rules, look at who we are not allowed to call out on social media without getting banned.


Really?
Okay, I too can play that game. I wanted to know who is in power of the next 23-25 years of what counts as constitutional, that be the supreme court right?
Oh wait. 3 of those members were appointed by a single president. Revoking people's rights. Golly.
It's almost like this argument your making is incredibly stupid.

Oh by the way, you know truth social? Yeah leftists (the very few ones who tried anyways) got banned there for providing evidence that countered that right wing hell hole. While here? I mean are you getting banned?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 15, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Really?
> Okay, I too can play that game. I wanted to know who is in power of the next 23-25 years of what counts as constitutional, that be the supreme court right?
> Oh wait. 3 of those members were appointed by a single president. Revoking people's rights. Golly.
> It's almost like this argument your making is incredibly stupid.
> ...


You mean the 3 Supreme Court members who just had their lives threatened by a crazed leftist? Those three?

You know the exact reason why leftists are getting banned from Truth Social? You know all of their stories? Do tell. I'm sure it will be fascinating reading.

I'm not calling anybody in positions of power out for their misdeeds here, so why would I be banned from here? As far as I know, I follow all the rules of this forum. I'm actually nicer to people than others are towards me. I don't even curse here.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 15, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You mean the 3 Supreme Court members who just had their lives threatened by a crazed leftist? Those three?


You really are going to make this argument?
The same 3 that got protested outside their homes as public officials?

Okay. Because NONE of them were threatening the supreme court. Justices.Don't believe me?



Are they carrying weapons?
No?
Chanting loudly must be a weapon then right?

You REALLY want to challenge this? People have the right to be angry that their rights are being taken away. and protest. They are doing that without getting armed, without threatening violence. If your telling me picket signs are violence then well all is lost on you.

Meanwhile here you are playing the game of "Well what about (enter smear here)"


How about actual death threats to FBI agents that Trump leaked?

You think THAT'S warranted?

Because Trump gave the the copy of the warrent to someone, which contained the evidence of who he was searched by. And now they doxed those people
You think that's warranted after WE KNOW what people's lives become when they become sicked by YOUR MOB.

Alex Jones, a person that is in the right, made peoples lives *hell* for those who he  defamed in sandy hook for *years*
His fans made them move over, and over and over. His fans kept chasing after them, kept finding them, kept threatening violence to them.

All to keep grifting and getting money out of his followers. Until he finally reccently, after a trial, after YEARS he admits that he KNEW that it was false and wrong.

And *YOU *are going to play the card of "Threatening their lives"

No fuck off. And your facist bullshit. No amount of whataboutism is going to going to make removing womens rights okay. And no amount of playing the victim card is going to make people believe you. Because your not the victim, your playing as the aggressor.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 15, 2022)

Oh and remember the time on jan6th that the rioters there were armed and chanting kill mike pence?
 But a bunch of protests with picket signs chanting about abortion rights is violence _totally_.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 15, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> @Dakitten, @LainaGabranth, @Xzi, @Dark_Ansem and yourself have nothing of value to say. All you have are insults. Zero substance.
> 
> Is that better, sport?


Yeah because every time I invite you to a real debate you bitch out.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

I kindly ask to get back on topic.

'Drawing on the Variety of Democracies (V-Dem) data set, published by an independent research institute in Sweden that covers 202 countries and goes back more than two centuries, its authors assess to what degree each country suffers from “pernicious” levels of partisan polarization. Do their citizens have such hostile views of opponents that they’re willing to act in ways that put democracy itself at risk?

The authors’ conclusion is startling: No established democracy in recent history has been as deeply polarized as the U.S. “For the United States,” Jennifer McCoy, the lead author of the study and a political-science professor at Georgia State University, told me in an interview, “I am very pessimistic.”

On virtually every continent, supporters of rival political camps are more likely to interact in hostile ways than they did a few decades ago. According to the Carnegie study, “us versus them polarization” has been increasing since 2005. McCoy and her colleagues don’t try to explain the causes, though the rise of social media is obviously a contributing factor.'


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Once again, you are incapable of refuting what I say with facts.


The post I replied to was nothing but whinging, what "facts" am I meant to break out in this scenario, hmm?  Again, there's no point in going into deep political discussions with you when you're a Trump supporter who lives outside of reality.  This is what your entire party looks like now:






I can't force you to wake up and realize you've been living in a cult, only you can do that.  Maybe afterwards we can finally have reasonable, level-headed discussions.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 15, 2022)

Love or hate Trump, admit you have a burning passion for him.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Love or hate Trump, admit you have a burning passion for him.


That is what I like about him, he moves people.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Love or hate Trump, admit you have a burning passion for him.


I do have a passion for bashing Nazi skulls in (let's say metaphorically so I don't get a warning/suspension).  Trump just happens to be the face of modern American fascism, though the entire Republican party has followed him off the deep end, so he's hardly the only problematic individual within it now.







​


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

That low framerate gif... oof...


Xzi said:


> I do have a passion for bashing Nazi skulls in (let's say metaphorically so I don't get a warning/suspension).  Trump just happens to be the face of modern American fascism, though the entire Republican party has followed him off the deep end, so he's hardly the only problematic individual within it now


I do believe without him the apparatus of the republican party will course correct hard.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> I do believe without him the apparatus of the republican party will course correct hard.


Republicans have already committed to rigging elections rather than trying to fix their party's platform.  If Trump is barred from running for office again, who they nominate next will tell us a lot about the direction they're headed in.  If it's someone like DeSantis, they're too far gone to return to sanity.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Republicans have already committed to rigging elections rather than trying to fix their party's platform.  If Trump is barred from running for office again, who they nominate next will tell us a lot about the direction they're headed in.  If it's someone like DeSantis, they're too far gone to return to sanity.


Its going to be Ron DeSantis and he is the worst, becareful what you wish for.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Its going to be Ron DeSantis and he is the worst, becareful what you wish for.


Oh I'm not wishing for it, and I certainly can't be blamed for who they nominate, I can just see the writing on the wall.  Even before Trump came along, Republicans would always salivate over "strongman" authoritarians like Putin, so it's not surprising that they've decided to dive down this rabbit hole.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Oh I'm not wishing for it,


Good


Xzi said:


> and I certainly can't be blamed for who they nominate,


Yes


Xzi said:


> I can just see the writing on the wall.


You are correct


Xzi said:


> Even before Trump came along, Republicans would always salivate over "strongman" authoritarians like Putin, so it's not surprising that they've decided to dive down this rabbit hole.


Yeah it either gonna be Trump or DeSantis. I personally prefer Trump because DeSanits is a competely fake a**kisser.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Yeah it either gonna be Trump or DeSantis. I personally prefer Trump because DeSanits is a competely fake a**kisser.


Well if the only realistic options are Trump, or DeSantis if he can't run, then clearly the Republican party has no intent to return to any degree of moderation or sanity.  We'd need more viable political parties in order to force them to have that "come to Jesus" moment, as it would divide their voter base.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Well if the only realistic options are Trump, or DeSantis if he can't run, then clearly the Republican party has no intent to return to any degree of moderation or sanity.


Yeah, don't expect them to become sane.


Xzi said:


> We'd need more viable political parties in order to force them to have that "come to Jesus" moment, as it would divide their voter base.


What do you have in mind?


----------



## tabzer (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> That is what I like about him, he moves people.



He makes politics popular in a time when America was about to die of irrelevance.  (Make people vote again)


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

tabzer said:


> He makes politics popular in a time when America was about to die of irrelevance.  (Make people vote again)


In other words, he brought a reality TV/fake wrestling mindset to politics.  That's not a good thing.  It's not a vote for fucking prom king, it's a vote for who you think can best handle the challenges facing the country, and he clearly couldn't handle any of them.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

Xzi said:


> In other words, he brought a reality TV/fake wrestling mindset to politics.


Yes


Xzi said:


> That's not a good thing.


Yes and no


Xzi said:


> It's not a vote for fucking prom king,


It acutally is


Xzi said:


> it's a vote for who you think can best handle the challenges facing the country,


That actually not what this is. Do you thing Biden makes decisions?


Xzi said:


> and he clearly couldn't handle any of them.


Yes


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> It acutally is


Wrong, that's what American Idol is for.  People should be taking a vote for president more seriously, but Trump's loonies are incapable of that either due to lack of education or lack of morals and ethics.  The only Republicans who can actually expect to get something in return for their vote are the ultra-wealthy.



Creamu said:


> That actually not what this is. Do you thing Biden makes decisions?


Obviously the executive branch has to make some important decisions, yes.  Not _all_ the decisions of the federal government, but still.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

@Xzi okay we will have to disagree on that one.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 15, 2022)

Someone loves his institution.  A real nationalist.  Not the fake Trump kind.  Better!


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


> @Xzi okay we will have to disagree on that one.


If you truly believe the president has zero power in the federal government, and that every town drunk is fit to become president, then that certainly goes a long way toward explaining Bolsonaro's election.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

Xzi said:


> If you truly believe the president has zero power in the federal government, and that every town drunk is fit to become president, then that certainly goes a long way toward explaining Bolsonaro's election.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


>



The most outlandish thing about this is that Camacho is actually a better president than Trump, since he sought out the smartest person on Earth to try to solve problems.  Trump would never admit that there's anybody smarter than him.  I suppose that's the difference between just being plain stupid, and being a stupid narcissist.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

Xzi said:


> The most outlandish thing about this is that Camacho is actually a better president than Trump, since he sought out the smartest person on Earth to try to solve problems.  Trump would never admit that there's anybody smarter than him.  I suppose that's the difference between just being plain stupid, and being a stupid narcissist.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

Creamu said:


>



Ah a rare moment of almost becoming self-aware.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 15, 2022)

I have to say it's really funny looking back at screenshots of my old posts and seeing me arguing constantly with Xzi about stupid shit thinking I was a "centrist" while just arguing right wing talking points.

Glad to see that division doesn't have to last forever. We just need people on the right to learn what they're talking about and quit arguing from ego, and rather from logic.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 15, 2022)

Trump is very smart.  Smarter than a lot of people here.  He's even more informed too.  He has the documents to prove it.  People calling him stupid should quit arguing from ego, and rather from logic.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 15, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I have to say it's really funny looking back at screenshots of my old posts and seeing me arguing constantly with Xzi about stupid shit thinking I was a "centrist" while just arguing right wing talking points.
> 
> Glad to see that division doesn't have to last forever. We just need people on the right to learn what they're talking about and quit arguing from ego, and rather from logic.


To be fair I'm not the best at "de-programming."  There is some common ground to be found between leftists and conservatives, which is why Bernie Sanders always interviews so well on Fox News.  They can correctly identify some of the problems with our system, it's just that their solutions to those problems are misguided at best, malicious and deranged at worst.  Attacking already-marginalized groups and communities is never going to solve anything, it's the capitalist class that are leeching off of all of us.

Living in conservative majority towns and cities most of my life has made my fangs grow a bit sharper than they need to be.



tabzer said:


> Trump is very smart. Smarter than a lot of people here.


We're talking about a man that, by his own admission, doesn't read or exercise.  If he was even a tiny bit smarter and/or less narcissistic, he'd be able to understand that a person like him should never be in charge of the country's well being.  And if he wasn't born rich, he'd be flipping burgers at McDonald's (not that there's anything wrong with that).  He's the ultimate representation of affluent white privilege.


----------



## JaapDaniels (Aug 15, 2022)

tabzer said:


> Trump is very smart.  Smarter than a lot of people here.  He's even more informed too.  He has the documents to prove it.  People calling him stupid should quit arguing from ego, and rather from logic.


Okay let's get real here (mister orange face):

The only papers he's got are stolen papers.
IQ is hard to say, i never caught him in something smart, i've seen him cheat/street smart:
Blaming others for your failing isn't smart.
Making a marter of yourself when losing an argument isn't smart..
Using fake religious arguments to justify your doings isn't smart.
Tax fraud isn't a smart thing.

From logic he failed before beïng president.
He is plain stupid, not a moment of thinking needed.
He is though good at playing the game of politics, more than any before and after him:
Just a waste he's using it to hide his taxes.
Just a waste he's using it to take rights from the people.
Just a waste he made climate change worse.
Just a waste he made USA more a communistic like country, without the bennefits (just taking the rights to be who you are).
Something about his friends is alarming: putin, Kim Jong-un...

But then i see what the other option is, it's a discrease... (biden)

He can't even speak normal (forget about formal) english.
He's not confident.
Looks weak.
Doesn't have a clear view on where to go.
About the child sniffing: it's sure wierd but far better than pussy grabbin.
As long as USA president candidates are as old as these candidates, you don't seem to seek seriously for a good candidate.
There's a reason for retirement:

Not understanding the changes anymore.
Slow learning.
High chance on health issues.
Depending on way too many people.
Puting religous thinking back where it doesn't belong.
He want his youth back, and abuses the people to get there.
Please  move on! For you're destabelizing not only the USA, but all western world by these poor decisions.
You'll need a leader of the pack (so biden is out), with a brain that functions in resolving crisises (so Donald is out, for he didn't sole one but he created a lot of crisis).


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 15, 2022)

>Actually carring about Tabzer posts
lol, lmao even

the guy doesn't actually have anything to say beyond basic bitch redditor shit


----------



## tabzer (Aug 15, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> >Actually carring about Tabzer posts
> lol, lmao even
> 
> the guy doesn't actually have anything to say beyond basic bitch redditor shit



That's kind of funny because my last post copied something you said.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 15, 2022)

Let's get back on topic:

'Margaret Sullivan

One thing I’ve wondered about reading your book is how concerned you are about the current state of American democracy, and really the state of global democracy. You come at it from a different point of view, suggesting this is just what democracy looks like, but how worried are you?

Sean Illing

Oh, I’m worried. I think the failure to see this distinction is making it more difficult for us to defend the liberal democracy that we have. Many of us want democracy to be a battle of ideas and policies, rooted in facts and evidence-based discourse.

But I really do see democracy as a competition of communication styles, where every imaginable kind of rhetoric and bullshit artistry and demagoguery is allowed to flourish. And that means it’s a fight, not just between arguments but between clashing rhetorics, between ways of thinking. And it is always, whether we recognize it or not, a battle for power.

So one concern I have is that I don’t think the Democratic Party in this country gets this. I really don’t. Even when they hold power, they seem incapable of exercising it. Why is that? There are probably lots of reasons. But one is that they can’t stop believing that democracy should be practiced in a certain way, and in a certain manner, and in accordance with certain rules. And I think that’s because they’re devoted to liberal democracy.

The Republicans are not devoted to liberal democracy. They’re actually willing to play dice with democracy. Republicans are saying, Look, almost half the country will follow us no matter what we do. Many of them only consume media that affirms their biases anyway. So let’s just seize and exercise power by any means necessary. The overturning of Roe v. Wade is an obvious recent example.

[...]

Trump’s great contribution was to show the Republican Party what’s actually possible if you stop caring about the liberal democratic game and just go after power. So Democrats accept the constraints of liberalism, and Republicans ruthlessly exploit the advantages our media and our political system afford them. They’re playing different games.

I’m not claiming that liberal democracy is dead. I would never claim that. I mean, it’s a possibility. But I am saying that the age of liberal democracy is over. And that means that this long postwar period of mostly stable liberal democracy was a period in which a gatekeeping media system managed a norms-driven discourse. And that is over.

[...]'

-Sean Illing

https://www.vox.com/vox-conversatio...rsations-the-paradox-of-democracy-sean-illing


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 15, 2022)

I mean, yeah, you'd have to be an idiot to not think the Republican party has gone off the deep end. They straight up do not value empiricism whatsoever anymore. Something doesn't have to be true or grounded in any reality, these guys will just make shit up and believe it. Did you see that shit MTG was preaching about, where she thinks solar generators just stop working at night, as if no one installs batteries with them?? No one in the audience dared to say "Hey, what the fuck are you talking about you moron?"


----------



## SG854 (Aug 16, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I have to say it's really funny looking back at screenshots of my old posts and seeing me arguing constantly with Xzi about stupid shit thinking I was a "centrist" while just arguing right wing talking points.
> 
> Glad to see that division doesn't have to last forever. We just need people on the right to learn what they're talking about and quit arguing from ego, and rather from logic.


Were you morvoran in the past life?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 16, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Were you morvoran in the past life?


Nah, I was an old user here. I can DM you my old profile if you want. I think I even argued with you specifically LMAO


----------



## SG854 (Aug 16, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Nah, I was an old user here. I can DM you my old profile if you want. I think I even argued with you specifically LMAO


Sure why not, I'm curious. I don't take politics seriously anymore tbh. I don’t care as much anymore. And my opinions changed like you.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 16, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> You really are going to make this argument?
> The same 3 that got protested outside their homes as public officials?
> 
> Okay. Because NONE of them were threatening the supreme court. Justices.Don't believe me?
> ...



I would say that I hate to call our your ignorance, but it is kinda fun.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/man-c...o-kill-supreme-court-justice-brett-kavanaugh/


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 16, 2022)

Randqalan said:


> Seriously believe what you want but for your information I am 54 years old know both Joe Biden and Donald Trump are corrupt. First Joe has used a lot of people $ from a lot of places to finance his pocket. Donald has filled bancupy to much to name and both have lied to the people. I wish so much someone would step forward who at least could help us and tell the damn truth but I know it won't happen!


How is filing for bankruptcy being corrupt? Many companies do it year in and year out.


----------



## Iamapirate (Aug 20, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Trump will be in prison soon, so he's not a threat any longer. I'm more worried about the Magas electing DeSantis.


I agree that DeSantis would be a better candidate that Trump. A better President too.


----------



## Jayro (Aug 20, 2022)

Iamapirate said:


> I agree that DeSantis would be a better candidate that Trump. A better President too.


If 'better' you mean better at being an asshole to LGBTQ+ people, then yeah... he's already being quite the cunt about that.


----------



## Iamapirate (Aug 20, 2022)

Jayro said:


> If 'better' you mean better at being an asshole to LGBTQ+ people, then yeah... he's already being quite the cunt about that.


I think all of his rhetoric and policy are pretty common sensical but I can see how someone within that deranged bubble might feel threatened by it.


----------



## Jayro (Aug 20, 2022)

Iamapirate said:


> I think all of his rhetoric and policy are pretty common sensical but I can see how someone within that deranged bubble might feel threatened by it.


Nothing deranged about it, he's a prick of a republican... Nuff said.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 20, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Nothing deranged about it, he's a prick of a republican... Nuff said.


Very funny seeing people call Death Santis "common sensical" lmfao. Having a doctor swatted because he wasn't spewing pseudoscience bullshit is definitely not common sense.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 20, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Nothing deranged about it, he's a prick of a republican... Nuff said.


DeSantis is a a**kisser and careerclimber and will do anything that furthers his cause.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 20, 2022)

Creamu said:


> DeSantis is a a**kisser and careerclimber and will do anything that furthers his cause.


extremely rare Creamu w


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

Creamu said:


> DeSantis is a a**kisser and careerclimber and will do anything that furthers his cause.


You just described every single politician. Take for example, Liz Cheney, whose net worth went from $7 million to over $44 million during her 6 years in the House.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You just described every single politician. Take for example, Liz Cheney, whose net worth went from $7 million to over $44 million during her 6 years in the House.


Which is why you should support positions that eliminate both parties and maximize the liberty of individuals.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Which is why you should support positions that eliminate both parties and maximize the liberty of individuals.


I already do. It's called decentralization of power. You should look into it someday.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I already do. It's called decentralization of power. You should look into it someday.


If you support states having the ability to take away civil liberties from its citizens, you do not support liberty. If you have any opposition to states not being able to make laws against gay marriage for example, liberty is not your concern, and you should quit trying to adopt its aesthetic.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> If you support states having the ability to take away civil liberties from its citizens, you do not support liberty. If you have any opposition to states not being able to make laws against gay marriage for example, liberty is not your concern, and you should quit trying to adopt its aesthetic.


If you support the federal government having the ability to take away civil liberties from its citizens, you do not support liberty.

I think states and the federal government should get out of the marriage business, but once again, you want the federal government involved in all aspects of our lives.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If you support the federal government having the ability to take away civil liberties from its citizens, you do not support liberty.
> 
> I think states and the federal government should get out of the marriage business, but once again, you want the federal government involved in all aspects of our lives.


Lol so you're in agreement then.  Marriage equality is _granting_ civil liberties under law to a marginalized group. It doesn't take anything away from anybody.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If you support the federal government having the ability to take away civil liberties from its citizens, you do not support liberty.
> 
> I think states and the federal government should get out of the marriage business, but once again, you want the federal government involved in all aspects of our lives.


So just to clarify, can you tell me what your problem is with a nationally protected right to marriage?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Lol so you're in agreement then.  Marriage equality is _granting_ civil liberties under law to a marginalized group. It doesn't take anything away from anybody.


If the state and federal governments were not in the marriage business, there would be nothing for them to grant. A couple would just go find somebody to officiate the wedding and they'd go about their business. 

But the left doesn't want that. They want the federal government to step in and control every aspect of our lives.

I personally do not care who gets married. I also do not care who turns down requests to officiate any kind of weddings.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> So just to clarify, can you tell me what your problem is with a nationally protected right to marriage?


What is your problem with state and federal governments staying out of marriages? Why should we tolerate having to ask permission and pay money for a license just to get married? Eliminate the licenses and fees would allow anybody to get married to whoever they desire.

Nobody has to ask permission to date or to get engaged. We shouldn't be asking for permission to get married too. Let the people decide, not governments.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> What is your problem with state and federal governments staying out of marriages? Why should we tolerate having to ask permission and pay money for a license just to get married? Eliminate the licenses and fees would allow anybody to get married to whoever they desire.
> 
> Nobody has to ask permission to date or to get engaged. We shouldn't be asking for permission to get married too. Let the people decide, not governments.


Which is EXACTLY why nationally protecting that right would solve it. Just to clarify, since you claim to be anti-authoritarian, why do you hold a position that would allow authorities to outright ban gay marriage? Just curious.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Which is EXACTLY why nationally protecting that right would solve it. Just to clarify, since you claim to be anti-authoritarian, why do you hold a position that would allow authorities to outright ban gay marriage? Just curious.


What are you talking about? I'm saying to get the state and federal governments our of marriage. Why do you want them all up in your bedroom?

Besides, if the government can grant it, then the government can take it away too. You are literally arguing for more government and I'm arguing for less government.

Less government = anti-authoritarian
More government = authoritarian


----------



## Xzi (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> What are you talking about? I'm saying to get the state and federal governments our of marriage. Why do you want them all up in your bedroom?


State/federally recognized marriage is mostly about the tax benefits, and everybody should have access to that.



TraderPatTX said:


> Less government = anti-authoritarian
> More government = authoritarian


You need to learn a little nuance.  This is not necessarily the case in the modern day and age, as corporations jump at the chance to privatize the functions of government which are underfunded.  This leads to oligarchy, which is about as authoritarian as it gets.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> What are you talking about? I'm saying to get the state and federal governments our of marriage. Why do you want them all up in your bedroom?
> 
> Besides, if the government can grant it, then the government can take it away too. You are literally arguing for more government and I'm arguing for less government.
> 
> ...


And if the states grant it, they can also take it away from themselves. Which is why the national level is just better at that point.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

Xzi said:


> State/federally recognized marriage is mostly about the tax benefits, and everybody should have access to that.
> 
> 
> You need to learn a little nuance.  This is not necessarily the case in the modern day and age, as corporations jump at the chance to privatize the functions of government which are underfunded.  This leads to oligarchy, which is about as authoritarian as it gets.


You can still filed married as you can show proof that you are married. You don't need a federally issued marriage license. We could also eliminate federal income tax, but what would those 87,000 armed agents do?

So getting the federal government out of the marriage business leads to oligarchy. I don't know if I want to laugh or feel sorry for you right now.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> And if the states grant it, they can also take it away from themselves. Which is why the national level is just better at that point.


You will literally argue pro-federal government control in any argument because you hate that we are a republic and not a straight democracy.

If a state did take it away, you can always just move to another state. That's how this country has worked since the very beginning.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You will literally argue pro-federal government control in any argument because you hate that we are a republic and not a straight democracy.
> 
> If a state did take it away, you can always just move to another state. That's how this country has worked since the very beginning.


Hmm, so, that's not an actual argument as to why equal marriage rights nationwide is a bad thing. Care to answer?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Hmm, so, that's not an actual argument as to why equal marriage rights nationwide is a bad thing. Care to answer?


First of all, I never said equal marriage is a bad thing. So you are starting off with a false premise. I'd ask you to quote me where I said that, but you've already been caught altering my words in the past, so I'll skip that part.

The bottom line is we just disagree over the amount of control and influence the federal government has over our lives. You want them all up in your bedroom and I just want to be left alone to make my own decisions.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You can still filed married as you can show proof that you are married. You don't need a federally issued marriage license. We could also eliminate federal income tax, but what would those 87,000 armed agents do?


So your proposal is a state-issued license?  That's no different in practice.  And lol @ paranoia about armed IRS agents.  We have a lot of other agencies to come knocking on your door if you're suspected of committing a felony.



TraderPatTX said:


> So getting the federal government out of the marriage business leads to oligarchy. I don't know if I want to laugh or feel sorry for you right now.


I was arguing against the notion that less government automatically equals less authoritarianism.  With marriage specifically people don't _have_ to have it recognized by the state, they _want _to for the tax benefits, as I said previously.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

Xzi said:


> So your proposal is a state-issued license?  That's no different in practice.  And lol @ paranoia about armed IRS agents.  We have a lot of other agencies to come knocking on your door if you're suspected of committing a felony.
> 
> 
> I was arguing against the notion that less government automatically equals less authoritarianism.  With marriage specifically people don't _have_ to have it recognized by the state, they _want _to for the tax benefits, as I said previously.


The proof would come from whoever officiated your wedding.

Tell me again why IRS agents need guns. Also tell me what group of people are statistically more likely to be audited because they lack the resources to hire big time attorneys and accountants.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The proof would come from whoever officiated your wedding.


Okay?  And one of the first places you would want to present that proof would be...at the tax office.  If we're getting all philosophical about it, religion doesn't need to be involved in marriage either, but most people choose to involve it.



TraderPatTX said:


> Tell me again why IRS agents need guns. Also tell me what group of people are statistically more likely to be audited because they lack the resources to hire big time attorneys and accountants.


IRS agents don't typically carry guns, they're about as nerdy as federal agents get.  And part of the inflation reduction act was an order for the IRS to start auditing more high-income individuals and corporations, as they were granted more funding to do so.  A lot of what you're parroting is paranoia from the wealthy elites.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Okay?  And one of the first places you would want to present that proof would be...at the tax office.  If we're getting all philosophical about it, religion doesn't need to be involved in marriage either, but most people choose to involve it.
> 
> 
> IRS agents don't typically carry guns, they're about as nerdy as federal agents get.  And part of the inflation reduction act was an order for the IRS to start auditing more high-income individuals and corporations, as they were granted more funding to do so.  A lot of what you're parroting is paranoia from the wealthy elites.


If you want to file your taxes married, then yes, you would have to show the IRS that you are married. The 1st Amendment disagrees with you. Weddings have been officiated in churches, synagogues, and mosques for centuries.

A lot of what I'm parroting is statistical information. The government is not going to spend $2 million to recover $500,000 in taxes. If they do, then they really are stupid and so are you for thinking that actually makes sense.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The 1st Amendment disagrees with you.


The first amendment agrees with me that people have both freedom _of _religion and freedom _from_ religion.



TraderPatTX said:


> The government is not going to spend $2 million to recover $500,000 in taxes.


Of course not.  They could easily recover $4 million+ from one tax dodging big fish, as opposed to recovering it $500 at a time from the poor.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> *I'd ask you to quote me where I said that, but you've already been caught altering my words in the past, so I'll skip that part.
> 
> You want them all up in your bedroom*


I just think it's funny that you get this pressed about a constitutionally supported marriage right. Why?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

Xzi said:


> The first amendment agrees with me that people have both freedom _of _religion and freedom _from_ religion.
> 
> 
> Of course not.  They could easily recover $4 million+ from one tax dodging big fish, as opposed to recovering it $500 at a time from the poor.


You do know that there are alternatives from religious weddings, right?

Why spend all that money going after rich people when all they have to do is send one letter to a poor person and they'll relent instantly?

A better question would be, why are the poor being taxed anyway? Eliminating income taxes for them would help them immensely. But the left isn't interested in actually helping people.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I just think it's funny that you get this pressed about a constitutionally supported marriage right. Why?


Looking thru the Constitution trying to find the right to marriage, but only finding the 10th Amendment.

Once again, I never said I was against marriage for everybody. Either learn to read or stop putting words in my mouth.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Looking thru the Constitution trying to find the right to marriage, but only finding the 10th Amendment.
> 
> Once again, I never said I was against marriage for everybody. Either learn to read or stop putting words in my mouth.


Great, so then you wouldn't have any problem with a theoretical amendment that ratifies equal marriage into law!


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Great, so then you wouldn't have any problem with a theoretical amendment that ratifies equal marriage into law!


Go ahead and pass it. Guess what, you need 3/4th's of the evil states to ratify it.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 22, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Go ahead and pass it. Guess what, you need 3/4th's of the evil states to ratify it.


Do you think those states should be allowed to prevent people from getting married? That is, after all, government intervention.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 22, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Do you think those states should be allowed to prevent people from getting married? That is, after all, government intervention.


You must live a very privileged life to only care about marriage. There are people currently unable to make ends meet. They are having a hard time buying gas and food and here you are arguing about marriage.

If anybody wants to see why we are so divided, here is a prime example. People are suffering from inflation and Laina here is arguing about culture war crap.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You must live a very privileged life to only care about marriage. There are people currently unable to make ends meet. They are having a hard time buying gas and food and here you are arguing about marriage.
> 
> If anybody wants to see why we are so divided, here is a prime example. People are suffering from inflation and Laina here is arguing about culture war crap.


I'm not enough of a pseudo intellectual to care which fallacy it is but it is definitely fallacious to argue that because I ask you a question on one issue, it must mean I hold zero stances whatsoever on any other issue. 

Like, hello?? You're talking to the girl who wants to eliminate currency in general. Inflation means nothing to me, because it's just a symptom of what I see as a greater plague on humanity.


----------



## MadonnaProject (Aug 23, 2022)

No, america is in its death throes. There will always be an america just not the country it once was.

Too many freedoms, too much entitlement, no propensity to learn or consider one's self wrong,  too much mingling with lesser nations and embattled people from those nations.

One always wondered what would be the saturation point for a cultural melting pot. I guess we see it now. The UK is much the same. Just go to London. The cultural melting pot is spilling over.

Good riddance though.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

I'm surprised you have the ability to recognize the exploitation of other countries by America and still somehow make the lobotomite tier argument that the "cultural melting pot" has anything to do with it.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I'm not enough of a pseudo intellectual to care which fallacy it is but it is definitely fallacious to argue that because I ask you a question on one issue, it must mean I hold zero stances whatsoever on any other issue.
> 
> Like, hello?? You're talking to the girl who wants to eliminate currency in general. Inflation means nothing to me, because it's just a symptom of what I see as a greater plague on humanity.


You must be super privileged if inflation means nothing to you, because the working poor and middle class are getting pounded right now. And they will vote accordingly come November.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You must be super privileged if inflation means nothing to you, because the working poor and middle class are getting pounded right now. And they will vote accordingly come November.


I would like you to demonstrate that I hold no opinion on inflation.

Here's a protip though: A statement not being made prior does not mean I hold no opinion on it.
Let's hear it, dingus.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I would like you to demonstrate that I hold no opinion on inflation.
> 
> Here's a protip though: A statement not being made prior does not mean I hold no opinion on it.
> Let's hear it, dingus.


You just made the comment less than 2 hours ago and I quoted you verbatim. I can understand you not remembering something you said a month ago, but 2 hours ago? Really?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You just made the comment less than 2 hours ago and I quoted you verbatim. I can understand you not remembering something you said a month ago, but 2 hours ago? Really?


Well it's just kind of weird that, y'know, reading my post history, I've never once said inflation isn't an issue or that I hold no opinion on it conceptually. Why are you arguing against the Laina in your head?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Well it's just kind of weird that, y'know, reading my post history, I've never once said inflation isn't an issue or that I hold no opinion on it conceptually. Why are you arguing against the Laina in your head?


Once again, is this you? It sure seems like it's you. And it's from this thread only six comments above this one. What is wrong with you?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

I want you to read what comes after "me" in that sentence out loud and try telling us what you think it means


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I want you to read what comes after "me" in that sentence out loud and try telling us what you think it means


Yet you defend who is purposefully causing this inflation which means you really don't care about humanity at all. The left only cares about control and power. Just because you see it a certain way does not mean it's not hurting people here in the real world. People who can't afford to buy gas or food don't care how you see inflation. You lack empathy.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Yet you defend who is purposefully causing this inflation which means you really don't care about humanity at all. The left only cares about control and power. Just because you see it a certain way does not mean it's not hurting people here in the real world. People who can't afford to buy gas or food don't care how you see inflation. You lack empathy.


Sooooooooo, I noticed that wasn't explaining how I "don't care about inflation."


----------



## tabzer (Aug 23, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Inflation means nothing to me, because it's just a symptom of what I see as a greater plague on humanity.



Greater plagues, such as tax status weddings.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You do know that there are alternatives from religious weddings, right?


Yes, now you've circled back to agreeing with me.  All I said was "religion does not have to be a part of marriage, but many people choose to include it anyway."



TraderPatTX said:


> Why spend all that money going after rich people when all they have to do is send one letter to a poor person and they'll relent instantly?


Because not all of them will relent instantly, and it takes a lot more resources to go after a million poor people than it does to go after one billionaire.  And again, it's written into the bill that the IRS must start pursuing more wealthy tax dodgers.  Failure to do so would provide solid grounds for a lawsuit, class action or otherwise.



TraderPatTX said:


> A better question would be, why are the poor being taxed anyway? Eliminating income taxes for them would help them immensely.


Sure, that'd be great.  We already have tax brackets for that reason, and so it would help a lot more if we mandated a much higher minimum wage and better working conditions, but nevertheless.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 23, 2022)

The 9/11 religion seems pretty prevalent these days


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Once again, is this you? It sure seems like it's you. And it's from this thread only six comments above this one. What is wrong with you?View attachment 323848


wait why did you increase the gamma on this image specifically


----------



## Xzi (Aug 23, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The 9/11 religion seems pretty prevalent these days


Accidentally based, the Republican party does indeed worship the Saudi royal family.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Accidentally based, the Republican party does indeed worship the Saudi royal family.


This is how you know the right is bad at parody LMAO


----------



## mituzora (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> *The left only cares about control and power*.


I think you're projecting there bud.  

the practical left only cares about their rights not being infringed upon because of some old fucks who can't let go of the past and adapt to the ever changing world around them.

Federal rights protect shit that would otherwise, be removed at the state's discretion.  and giving access to gay couples to legally get married is one of those rights.  otherwise, they wouldn't be able to legally get married and get all of the benefits of being a married couple in many states.

also inb4 move away;  moving is expensive, neigh impossible for many people, especially the people that would be affected by the repeal of federal amendments.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 23, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Accidentally based, the Republican party does indeed worship the Saudi royal family.



The Patriot Act only gives power to republicans.  I did not know that!


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Yes, now you've circled back to agreeing with me.  All I said was "religion does not have to be a part of marriage, but many people choose to include it anyway."
> 
> 
> Because not all of them will relent instantly, and it takes a lot more resources to go after a million poor people than it does to go after one billionaire.  And again, it's written into the bill that the IRS must start pursuing more wealthy tax dodgers.  Failure to do so would provide solid grounds for a lawsuit, class action or otherwise.
> ...


There are stories dating from 2000 all the way to the present about how rich people get audited less than poor people. The uniparty is going to make sure their rich friends will never get audited. It's like when the Dems raise taxes, but then put in loop holes for their buddies. 

I support a $100 an hour minimum wage. You leftists half-ass everything. Imagine asking for a paltry $15 an hour.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The Patriot Act only gives power to republicans.  I did not know that!


I remember the Patriot Act being a bipartisan screwing over of the people. And they didn't even whisper sweet nothings into our ears while doing it.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

mituzora said:


> I think you're projecting there bud.
> 
> the practical left only cares about their rights not being infringed upon because of some old fucks who can't let go of the past and adapt to the ever changing world around them.
> 
> ...


Show me in the Constitution where it says marriage of any kind is a right?

The poorest people were moving all around this country before there were cars.

Illegal aliens walk thousands of miles to our southern border to sneak in.

Pretty much what you are saying is "Poor and minority Americans are too lazy to move to a different state that shares their beliefs".


----------



## mituzora (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Show me in the Constitution where it says marriage of any kind is a right?


show me where I said marriage is a constitutional right.  I did not state that it was.  that's you filling in the blanks in your head.


TraderPatTX said:


> The poorest people were moving all around this country before there were cars.



yes, the poorest people were moving before cars,  did I say you need a car to move?  I did not.  again, you're filling in blanks here.  being expensive doesn't mean you need a car.  


TraderPatTX said:


> Illegal aliens walk thousands of miles to our southern border to sneak in.


yeah, and they also get assistance by convoys and everything else.  it also costs an arm and a leg to get across the border as well, which while many cross the border, many can't because they can't afford the time or money to do so.


TraderPatTX said:


> Pretty much what you are saying is "Poor and minority Americans are too lazy to move to a different state that shares their beliefs".


No, but again, here we go filling in assumptions with red herrings once more.  so typical Pat, so typical.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

mituzora said:


> show me where I said marriage is a constitutional right.  I did not state that it was.  that's you filling in the blanks in your head.


I think he got confused and misread me talking about a *theoretical*, proposed for the sake of argument amendment that would ratify it, mainly to bait Trader into going mask off and just admitting he doesn't want equal rights.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 23, 2022)

mituzora said:


> show me where I said marriage is a constitutional right.  I did not state that it was.  that's you filling in the blanks in your head.
> 
> 
> yes, the poorest people were moving before cars,  did I say you need a car to move?  I did not.  again, you're filling in blanks here.  being expensive doesn't mean you need a car.
> ...


You said federal rights. But who knows what you really meant. The left is always changing the meaning of words from one day to the next.

You said moving was expensive. I countered with the poorest people have been moving around this country since it's founding.

The media never mentions illegal aliens ever get assistance. Would be interesting if our "smart" media would investigate who is helping people break the laws in our country. They could be considered accessories.

Your entire argument was based on what would people do if states passed laws restricting freedoms because it was so expensive to move and now you are saying I'm filling in with assumptions.

Quit making arguments that you can't defend when challenged.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 23, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You said federal rights. But who knows what you really meant. The left is always changing the meaning of words from one day to the next.
> 
> You said moving was expensive. I countered with the poorest people have been moving around this country since it's founding.
> 
> ...


Yes, I said federal rights.  I didn't say a damn thing about marriage being a constitutional right.  Just because something is federally protected doesn't mean it has to be a constitutional amendment.  they are not exclusively the same thing (but I know you think so because you're always on and on about how the constitution is the only law of the land which is horse shit and you know it)

please define media, because I've seen many things in the media who speak about aliens getting assistance, rather it be to cross the border or to get assistance while living here.  You wanna start investigating crimes, then start investigating the bullshit of corporations paying off congress to pass laws and shit.  

inb4 and arguing are two different things, but in the event you don't understand the acronym, I was beating you to your typical "move to another state argument" which your argument states that people do this all the time, and blah-de-blah not even considering the nuances of an argument in any capacity.  Just because people can doesn't make it any more difficult to do, (which I never said impossible, I said "neigh" impossible, which means nearly impossible, for the record.)

I'm not making arguments that I can't defend, but you sure as hell are tying to use argumentative fallacies to make it look that way.

but I'm just wasting bandwidth typing this up, because you're not here to listen,  you're here to bash on all of the people who have differing opinions than you, just like you do on every single political post.

also, your "left is always changing the meaning of words" is just another logical fallacy to make leftists look bad.  bodily autonomy has always meant the same thing,  rights have always meant the same thing, but you're too far stuck up your own ass to listen to anyone who tells you the clearly defined phrases that us "leftists" use.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 23, 2022)

Daily reminder the constitution is just a piece of paper and the only reason it's obeyed is because we the people said so. Which means it can be changed. It, and the founding fathers (who were slave owners btw, thus making them hypocritical) should not be deified or held in any high regard.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 24, 2022)

Yall keep aguing.. dont mind me, im just watching, till i want to join in


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Yes, I said federal rights.  I didn't say a damn thing about marriage being a constitutional right.  Just because something is federally protected doesn't mean it has to be a constitutional amendment.  they are not exclusively the same thing (but I know you think so because you're always on and on about how the constitution is the only law of the land which is horse shit and you know it)
> 
> please define media, because I've seen many things in the media who speak about aliens getting assistance, rather it be to cross the border or to get assistance while living here.  You wanna start investigating crimes, then start investigating the bullshit of corporations paying off congress to pass laws and shit.
> 
> ...


I never said the Constitution is the only law in the land, but the Constitution is the highest law of the land. You can't even argue against that. Talk about an argumentative fallacy. Look in the mirror, sport.

Corporations are the ones giving tax deductible donations to international NGO's to help illegal aliens come break our laws.

I've moved state to state many times in my life. It's inconvenient, but not neigh impossible.

If the left does not change the meaning of words, then please define the following words.

1. Woman
2. Vaccine
3. Recession

I don't have to say anything to make leftists look bad. You all do a fine job doing it yourselves.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If the left does not change the meaning of words, then please define the following words.


Here's a question for you.

What is the objective definition of "Chair?"


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Here's a question for you.
> 
> What is the objective definition of "Chair?"


Chair: a device designed by the patriarchy for sitting. Often used to control and enslave women and BIPOC who desire to stand

see also Stool: a chair-like device with no back forcing women and BIPOC to sit upright with no back support


----------



## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I never said the Constitution is the only law in the land, but the Constitution is the highest law of the land. You can't even argue against that. Talk about an argumentative fallacy. Look in the mirror, sport.
> 
> Corporations are the ones giving tax deductible donations to international NGO's to help illegal aliens come break our laws.
> 
> ...


Woman - an adult female.  Not specifically biological, but traditionally defined by your sex at birth, but not exclusively defined by your sex at birth
Vaccine - a specific type of medicine that uses methods to train your body to attack viruses so you become "immune" to something.  usually injected, and traditionally had the proteins of a virus to train your body to attack those proteins. 
Recession - a period of time where purchasing power of a citizen drops significantly due to many various reasons. 

There you go.

Kudos to you for being able to move from states, but you're not everyone else now are you?  let you in on some of my specifics.  I am able to move, but I have to pull my kids out of their clinics, their school systems, find a new job, and leave an entire life behind me.  It's doable, but there's so many things that need to change for me to be able to move.  I can't just move at the drop of a hat.   I know plenty of people who have it worse too.  again, "neigh impossible" still fits here.  you can't judge everyone else by your personal position, which is what you're doing, and it's a small sample at best.

No argumentative fallacies here;  just stating that federal law doesn't mean the constitution, which from your response, you assumed that I meant constitution, which I in fact, did not.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Chair: a device designed by the patriarchy for sitting. Often used to control and enslave women and BIPOC who desire to stand
> 
> see also Stool: a chair-like device with no back forcing women and BIPOC to sit upright with no back support


No, no coping. We all know right wing comedy isn't funny anyways. Let's hear the objective definition of chair.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Woman - an adult female.  Not specifically biological, but traditionally defined by your sex at birth, but not exclusively defined by your sex at birth
> Vaccine - a specific type of medicine that uses methods to train your body to attack viruses so you become "immune" to something.  usually injected, and traditionally had the proteins of a virus to train your body to attack those proteins.
> Recession - a period of time where purchasing power of a citizen drops significantly due to many various reasons.
> 
> There you go.


How do you know a woman is female? Are you assuming gender?

If that's the definition of vaccine, then people have a lot 'splaing to do.

What is the prime indicator used to define the start of a recession for the past 10 recessions, but is not used for this current one?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> No, no coping. We all know right wing comedy isn't funny anyways. Let's hear the objective definition of chair.


I'm pretty sure I nailed that one.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> How do you know a woman is female? Are you assuming gender?
> 
> If that's the definition of vaccine, then people have a lot 'splaing to do.
> 
> What is the prime indicator used to define the start of a recession for the past 10 recessions, but is not used for this current one?


Not necessarily, but it's safe to assume that an AFAB person is a woman until stated otherwise.  To be defined as a Woman typically carries some traditionally understood behaviors(see feministic), but doesn't always fit into that role.  It's certainly not defined by your genitalia as you seem to be alluding to.

Not really, that's been a well-understood definition for a long time.  Just because you have to get boosters with certain viruses, or yearly vaccinations doesn't change that definition.

I have no clue what prime indicator that you're talking about,  not gonna lie.  recessions can happen for a myriad of things.  My guess is inflation?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I'm pretty sure I nailed that one.


Well you got the whole squad laughing. Just not with you :^)

No, the reason you're having to defer to weak sarcasm is because there *is* no objectively definition for a chair. Is the ground a chair?  It's "stationary", usually flat enough to support you, and so on. Tables? Desks? Bar stools? An upside down bucket?

The reason these are important questions to ask is that *NO,* and I mean *NONE AT ALL*, definition is objective in nature. We agree upon them. That's verbatim why the word "literally" has become a synonym for figuratively, why "irony" has become a synonym for insincere or in jest, and so on.

The fact of the matter is, you cannot define anything more objectively than I can. You do not have an objective definition for woman, recession, or vaccine. And you never will, because no one can. Words are made up. They only exist because we made them. We designed the squiggles that represent them in alphabets, and we designed the mouth sounds that represent them in languages, with agreement deciding their meaning.

The difference between you and I however is that you propose definitions that exclude themselves, because they do not actually properly exclude or isolate the unintended from the intended definition.

In conclusion, you are holding ontologically impossible positions and then using a forced smugness to hide the fact you do not believe anything.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Well you got the whole squad laughing. Just not with you :^)
> 
> No, the reason you're having to defer to weak sarcasm is because there *is* no objectively definition for a chair. Is the ground a chair?  It's "stationary", usually flat enough to support you, and so on. Tables? Desks? Bar stools? An upside down bucket?
> 
> ...


ha!  perfect.  couldn't have said it better myself.

also, if you look up any of those words, I guarantee you they have a few different definitions, based off of the dictionary, source, locale, etc.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Not necessarily, but it's safe to assume that an AFAB person is a woman until stated otherwise.  To be defined as a Woman typically carries some traditionally understood behaviors(see feministic), but doesn't always fit into that role.  It's certainly not defined by your genitalia as you seem to be alluding to.
> 
> Not really, that's been a well-understood definition for a long time.  Just because you have to get boosters with certain viruses, or yearly vaccinations doesn't change that definition.
> 
> I have no clue what prime indicator that you're talking about,  not gonna lie.  recessions can happen for a myriad of things.  My guess is inflation?


So in other words, you look at a person and determine, without even asking what gender they are. Guess the rules don't apply to everyone.

The CDC literally changed the definition because these shots did not adhere to the classic definition.

This is why the left is often wrong. There are many times and many subject matters that you all have no clue, but you all pretend that you do. The last 10 recessions over the past few decades have always started when quarterly GDP contracted for two straight quarters. Literally everybody knows this. Now all of a sudden, when a Democrat is president, it's nuanced. And the leftist seals on here all clap in unison and pretend that all is well in the land.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Well you got the whole squad laughing. Just not with you :^)
> 
> No, the reason you're having to defer to weak sarcasm is because there *is* no objectively definition for a chair. Is the ground a chair?  It's "stationary", usually flat enough to support you, and so on. Tables? Desks? Bar stools? An upside down bucket?
> 
> ...


Imagine thinking holding a position that defining words as they have been spoken for generations is impossible and a sign of smugness.

The smugness is thinking that you can change definitions of words to fit a narrative to protect a certain group of people from scrutiny.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Imagine thinking holding a position that defining words as they have been spoken for generations is impossible and a sign of smugness.
> 
> The smugness is thinking that you can change definitions of words to fit a narrative to protect a certain group of people from scrutiny.


Imagine not thinking that definitions are fluid and subject to change.  sorry that it disrupts your minuscule world view on things.  
If you're really getting bent out of shape on a change of a definition, than that's kind of a problem.  but I digress.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So in other words, you look at a person and determine, without even asking what gender they are. Guess the rules don't apply to everyone.
> 
> The CDC literally changed the definition because these shots did not adhere to the classic definition.
> 
> This is why the left is often wrong. There are many times and many subject matters that you all have no clue, but you all pretend that you do. The last 10 recessions over the past few decades have always started when quarterly GDP contracted for two straight quarters. Literally everybody knows this. Now all of a sudden, when a Democrat is president, it's nuanced. And the leftist seals on here all clap in unison and pretend that all is well in the land.


Yes, actually I do initially, and I repeat INITIALLY use what has been given to my brain to make an initial judgement call.  there's nothing wrong with that.  it's when someone corrects you and then you get butthurt that they're wrong about their gender that's the problem.  They correct you, you acknowledge,  move on,  it's not that hard of a concept.

the CDC is not the be-all-end-all to definitions.  

All this arguing about minute definitions is pointless.  it doesn't matter what my answers are, you're just going to find some stupid left-handed rebuttal about how I'm stupid and wrong and blah-de-blah because I'm a "leftist" 

I forgot, I'm talking to a brick wall who thinks that anything that opposes them is leftist and stupid.  

you want to bring up something else to argue about than stupid little minute definitions, then by all means,  otherwise, I'm done with this annoying back and forth.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Imagine not thinking that definitions are fluid and subject to change.  sorry that it disrupts your minuscule world view on things.
> If you're really getting bent out of shape on a change of a definition, than that's kind of a problem.  but I digress.


Fluid means that the definitions change over time and are agreed upon by everybody who speaks the language. These latest changes are done specifically to protect a narrative.

Imagine getting bent out of shape towards somebody who does not accept and actually questions the state-run narratives, but I digress.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> There are stories dating from 2000 all the way to the present about how rich people get audited less than poor people.


No shit, we've already been over the intentional underfunding of the IRS.  The bill intends to remedy that, though only time will tell how effective it is.



TraderPatTX said:


> I support a $100 an hour minimum wage.


Yet you support a party that has no problem allowing corporations to subsidize their wages with welfare.  Republicans would sooner eliminate the minimum wage altogether than raise it a single cent.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Yes, actually I do initially, and I repeat INITIALLY use what has been given to my brain to make an initial judgement call.  there's nothing wrong with that.  it's when someone corrects you and then you get butthurt that they're wrong about their gender that's the problem.  They correct you, you acknowledge,  move on,  it's not that hard of a concept.
> 
> the CDC is not the be-all-end-all to definitions.
> 
> ...


If corrections were all that were happening, it wouldn't be a big deal. People are getting fired for not using the "proper" pronouns. The people who need to move on, are the fascists who are perpetuating this fraud.

The CDC, NIAID and Anthony Fauci himself is the embodiment of science itself. To doubt this is heresy.

The topic is how divided we are as a country. Part of that division entails the left changing language to suit their fake narratives. If you are not happy with the topic, I suggest you waltz on over to a different thread. Nobody is keeping you here.


----------



## City (Aug 24, 2022)

Because right and left in the US are generally divided in the middle. I said GENERALLY, so 50/50 but also 60/40 and the opposite. A normal democracy would have the winning party that would be like "we won and we're going to do this our way, but we're still going to listen to you". With the US, though, after Obama it seems that it shifted into "we will do whatever and fuck you", with very, very rare cases where both parties agreed on something, or that collaborated.

Your neighbor that voted the other party is still your neighbor. Just because his party lost doesn't mean that his opinion doesn't matter anymore, especially when, in the US case, the "neighbor" is close to half the population. Claiming that the other side is made of terrorists doesn't help anyone.

How can you be an american politician and have the balls to just ostracize half of your people just because they didn't vote for you?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> No shit, we've already been over the intentional underfunding of the IRS.  The bill intends to remedy that, though only time will tell how effective it is.
> 
> 
> Yet you support a party that has no problem allowing corporations to subsidize their wages with welfare.  Republicans would sooner eliminate the minimum wage altogether than raise it a single cent.


It'll be as effective as it is at lowering inflation, which is not at all.

Scandinavian countries that all you knuckleheads love to brag about don't have minimum wage and they are some of the happiest countries in the world.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> It'll be as effective as it is at lowering inflation, which is not at all.


Not enough, certainly.  A 15% minimum corporate tax is a joke considering that the rate was 90% on corporations during the middle class' most prosperous years in America.



TraderPatTX said:


> Scandinavian countries that all you knuckleheads love to brag about don't have minimum wage and they are some of the happiest countries in the world.


Be sure to let me know when Republicans are ready to provide all the social safety nets that Scandinavian countries do, then.  Young people in America might even be able to afford to buy houses with that kind of government assistance.


----------



## City (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Be sure to let me know when Republicans are ready to provide all the social safety nets that Scandinavian countries do, then.  Young people in America might even be able to afford to buy houses with that kind of assistance.


Because Scandinavians pay a ton of taxes, something Americans aren't fond of doing, not to mention the terrible way they treat stuff that's made for the public, like public transport and parks. Places like Denmark, for example, have people who lose >80% of their income in taxes. Is it worth it? For the individual, maybe. But for everyone? Absolutely.

Then again, if you live in Denmark, chances are you can easily bike your way to work, whereas in the US you probably need more than an hour to reach your office by car. It's a complicated issue.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

City said:


> Because Scandinavians pay a ton of taxes, something Americans aren't fond of doing


Yeah we prefer to go into debt for life over a single medical bill.



City said:


> Places like Denmark, for example, have people who lose >80% of their income in taxes.


They'd have to already be rich, which means they want for absolutely nothing even when paying that much in taxes.  As above, America had a 90% tax rate on the ultra wealthy in the past, and it paved the way for the strongest middle class we've ever had.  The rich conned us (some of us) into believing that cutting their taxes would be good for everybody, and that obviously hasn't panned out.  Never too late to correct that mistake, though.


----------



## City (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Yeah we prefer to go into debt for life over a single medical bill.
> 
> 
> They'd have to already be rich, which means they want for absolutely nothing even when paying that much in taxes.  As above, America had a 90% tax rate on the ultra wealthy in the past, and it paved the way for the strongest middle class we've ever had.


Keep in mind that doctors everywhere (in first world countries at least) are getting more and more interested in the private sector, with some european countries already becoming private healthcare's bitch. Obviously not as much as the US is, but give it a few decades, they're getting there.

Also no, an average salary in Denmark is taxed at 86%.

My personal belief that would be as close to perfection as it can would be to give free healthcare to everyone as it already is in some countries (looooong queues), but if you didn't hurt yourself in a stupid way, like drunk driving or smoking, then you get more priority. Not saying that we should let a drunk driver bleed to death after an accident, just that, if there was an accident between a drunk driver and a pedestrian and they both need medical attention at the same level of urgency, the latter should always have the priority. The drunk driver will get his turn.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

City said:


> Also no, an average salary in Denmark is taxed at 86%.


Well, if that takes care of all the necessities I'd be more than happy to pay it.  Most people in the US can barely afford just rent, food and gas with 100% of their income right now.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Imagine thinking holding a position that defining words as they have been spoken for generations is impossible and a sign of smugness.
> 
> The smugness is thinking that you can change definitions of words to fit a narrative to protect a certain group of people from scrutiny.


He says, literally speaking modern English, a bastardized version of the original language


----------



## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The topic is how divided we are as a country. Part of that division entails the left changing language to suit their fake narratives. If you are not happy with the topic, I suggest you waltz on over to a different thread. Nobody is keeping you here.


Definitions and a country divided are two different things.  At least the "leftists" aren't getting bent out of shape for some nuanced changes in a definition.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Definitions and a country divided are two different things.  At least the "leftists" aren't getting bent out of shape for some nuanced changes in a definition.


Do you think whenever Trader sees multiple definitions to a word, or any etymology class he just starts screeching uncontrollably


----------



## appleburger (Aug 24, 2022)




----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 24, 2022)

appleburger said:


>


Holy fuck I got hit with some nostalgia right there. But it's also a good point, the book was literally about etymology. You'd think a guy who harps constantly about "state's rights" and individual liberties would be able to understand that we, society as a whole, decide the definitions to words.

Definitions don't even have to point to "objective" things either, be they biological or physical or whatever. For example, I can say "That's cool," and someone will instantly understand that I am giving a statement of approval to whatever thing or action I am calling "cool," despite no one actually truly being able to define what "cool" is. Why was a word for temperature given meaning to define something that also means something positive socially as well?

It's almost as if.

No words are objectively defined.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

City said:


> Because right and left in the US are generally divided in the middle. I said GENERALLY, so 50/50 but also 60/40 and the opposite. A normal democracy would have the winning party that would be like "we won and we're going to do this our way, but we're still going to listen to you". With the US, though, after Obama it seems that it shifted into "we will do whatever and fuck you", with very, very rare cases where both parties agreed on something, or that collaborated.
> 
> Your neighbor that voted the other party is still your neighbor. Just because his party lost doesn't mean that his opinion doesn't matter anymore, especially when, in the US case, the "neighbor" is close to half the population. Claiming that the other side is made of terrorists doesn't help anyone.
> 
> How can you be an american politician and have the balls to just ostracize half of your people just because they didn't vote for you?


Oh I agree 100 percent on this.  despite my "leftist" views,  I will gladly talk to my right-winged friends and coworkers, because they're still human and they on average have at least a valid reasoning of why they follow their politics the way they do.  I also have healthy debates with people about politics all the time,  On the internet though, it seems like the extremism is turned up to 10 on both sides. 

I don't intend to come off as an extremist by any means,  I'm left leaning, but I'm closer to the center than I put off.  people in these political threads just tend to bring out the worst of my leftist views.  

Pat for example asking me to define a woman,  I gave an answer that normally wouldn't flow in the "SJW" state of mind.  

I think the problem has to do with social media and the internet as a whole bringing out the absolute worst in people, and that includes their "die on their hill" political stance.  in a normal setting, I interact with right-leaning people without a problem, despite having largely different opinions on the way the world works.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Oh I agree 100 percent on this.  despite my "leftist" views,  I will gladly talk to my right-winged friends and coworkers, because they're still human and they on average have at least a valid reasoning of why they follow their politics the way they do.  I also have healthy debates with people about politics all the time,  On the internet though, it seems like the extremism is turned up to 10 on both sides.
> 
> I don't intend to come off as an extremist by any means,  I'm left leaning, but I'm closer to the center than I put off.  people in these political threads just tend to bring out the worst of my leftist views.
> 
> ...


The really fucked up part is that Trader still took issue with your definition for woman despite this. It's never enough for the right, you basically have to agree on everything, as much as they do, or you aren't good enough lmfao

I'm the furthest left in this thread and I still think your definition was actually quite correct.


----------



## appleburger (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> I think the problem has to do with social media and the internet as a whole bringing out the absolute worst in people, and that includes their "die on their hill" political stance.  in a normal setting, I interact with right-leaning people without a problem, despite having largely different opinions on the way the world works.


I've thought about this a lot, and by nature of the internet, we have to fill in the blanks since we aren't interacting in person. 

I feel fairly confident this is similar to how we act with drivers on the road, as well.  We seem to 'thingify' people when we can't actually interact with them, and we're very adept at convincing ourselves we are correct about the initial blanks we fill.  We can't really have world views without making some assumptions, leaps of faith, and then testing all of it - which is hard to do when we're all naturally inclined to be somewhat stubborn.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Definitions and a country divided are two different things.  At least the "leftists" aren't getting bent out of shape for some nuanced changes in a definition.


Nuanced = this definition doesn't work with the propaganda so it must me changed immediately. And if you use the old definition, you're a fascist transphobe who eats kittens.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Nuanced = this definition doesn't work with the propaganda so it must me changed immediately. And if you use the old definition, you're a fascist transphobe who eats kittens.


Does it bother you that words are fabricated? Because you really seem like it does.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Does it bother you that words are fabricated? Because you really seem like it does.


The only thing that's fabricated is the propaganda and mis-dis-malinformation that you spread.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The only thing that's fabricated is the propaganda and mis-dis-malinformation that you spread.


You have also said things that are propaganda! Curious!


----------



## tabzer (Aug 25, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Why was a word for temperature given meaning to define something that also means something positive socially as well?



Is that a real question?  Do you sincerely not see a connection?



LainaGabranth said:


> It's almost as if.
> 
> No words are objectively defined.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> You have also said things that are propaganda! Curious!


If only you could provide an example... alas, you can not.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If only you could provide an example... alas, you can not.


Just as you can't for anything I say. Welcome to Zero-Sum, son.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Just as you can't for anything I say. Welcome to Zero-Sum, son.


I post screenshots of your ridiculousness almost daily for the laughs.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I post screenshots of your ridiculousness almost daily for the laughs.


Yeah, but no one laughs. Not even you do lmao


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Yeah, but no one laughs. Not even you do lmao


Most of the time I feel sorry for you. I wonder, is this person really like this irl? I seriously doubt it, but it wouldn't surprise me. That's why you come on here and say lame things and have to put lmao at the end of your comments to signify that this comment is supposed to be funny to all your NPC friends.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Most of the time I feel sorry for you. I wonder, is this person really like this irl? I seriously doubt it, but it wouldn't surprise me. That's why you come on here and say lame things and have to put lmao at the end of your comments to signify that this comment is supposed to be funny to all your NPC friends.


we are now at the stage of discourse where you are irrationally upset by four characters


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> we are now at the stage of discourse where you are irrationally upset by four characters


You assuming my emotional state day in and day out is peak arrogance. You act like you know me when in reality you don't. I'd appreciate it if you stop acting like you do. 

With the extra brain power gained by not concerning yourself trying to guess my emotional state, you might be able to piece together a coherent argument for once.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You assuming my emotional state day in and day out is peak arrogance. You act like you know me when in reality you don't. I'd appreciate it if you stop acting like you do.
> 
> With the extra brain power gained by not concerning yourself trying to guess my emotional state, you might be able to piece together a coherent argument for once.


oh, so it's okay for you to act like lefties are bent out of shape and salty for the dumbest of reasons but it's not okay to be called out for the same behavior.  

man you're hypocritical as hell, talking about how it's only okay for leftists and shit to do things, but then turn around and get butthurt when someone calls you out for the same thing. grow up dude.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

mituzora said:


> oh, so it's okay for you to act like lefties are bent out of shape and salty for the dumbest of reasons but it's not okay to be called out for the same behavior.
> 
> man you're hypocritical as hell, talking about how it's only okay for leftists and shit to do things, but then turn around and get butthurt when someone calls you out for the same thing. grow up dude.


It would be a lot easier to take you seriously if you called out the lefties here for bad behavior, but we all know why you don't.

You need to remember, this is all just banter, nothing more. Nobody here needs a knight in shining armor to come save them from the "big bad fascist guy" here.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> It would be a lot easier to take you seriously if you called out the lefties here for bad behavior, but we all know why you don't.
> 
> You need to remember, this is all just banter, nothing more. Nobody here needs a knight in shining armor to come save them from the "big bad fascist guy" here.


no, you're right, they don't need a "knight in shining armor" because they can hold their own no problem.  I'm not here to support them,  they can do that just fine,  I'm here to call you out on your ungodly hypocritical behavior.

I personally never called you a fascist.  so thanks for putting those words in my mouth.  oh wait, you're making generalizations and lumping me in with the rest of the lefties, aren't you.  You're pretty keen on that.

I'd take you a lot more personally if you weren't so fast to jump to logical fallacies when you want to argue, and roundabout bullshit.  but instead of arguing a logical point, you'll turn around and ask a question entirely left field (such as asking someone to define things) then turn around and act like that has something to do with the topic at hand.

anyways, this has just become a bashful off-topic back and forth, so I'm out.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

mituzora said:


> no, you're right, they don't need a "knight in shining armor" because they can hold their own no problem.  I'm not here to support them,  they can do that just fine,  I'm here to call you out on your ungodly hypocritical behavior.
> 
> I personally never called you a fascist.  so thanks for putting those words in my mouth.  oh wait, you're making generalizations and lumping me in with the rest of the lefties, aren't you.  You're pretty keen on that.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I offended your sensibilities by lumping you with a group of people that you obviously identify with and defend here.

I never said you called me a fascist, but most of your lefty friends here have because they have weak arguments. You only imagined that I said you called me fascist. That's on you.

Every one of your comments paints a nice pretty picture of why we are divided as a country. I never spoke to you ever and you start off by attacking me. That is entirely on you too. And then you end with this hit-and-run saying that you are out after spending multiple comments literally screaming at me like I took your toy away. 

Here's some words of advice. Grow up. Learn to talk to people. And try to not be so emotional in public. You'll get further in life like that.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Sorry if I offended your sensibilities by lumping you with a group of people that you obviously identify with and defend here.
> 
> I never said you called me a fascist, but most of your lefty friends here have because they have weak arguments. You only imagined that I said you called me fascist. That's on you.
> 
> ...





mituzora said:


> I think you're projecting there bud.
> 
> 
> the practical left only cares about their rights not being infringed upon because of some old fucks who can't let go of the past and adapt to the ever changing world around them.
> ...



Sounds like you decided to attack me first;  quoted is my first post in this thread.  oh wait, saying you're projecting is a personal attack I guess....

Nobody is screaming here.  again, sounds like you're projecting.

Here's some words of advice:  Take your own advice.  Grow Up, learn how to speak to people, instead of bashing people with different opinions, and try not to be so emotional in public when they call you out.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Sounds like you decided to attack me first;  quoted is my first post in this thread.  oh wait, saying you're projecting is a personal attack I guess....
> 
> Nobody is screaming here.  again, sounds like you're projecting.
> 
> Here's some words of advice:  Take your own advice.  Grow Up, learn how to speak to people, instead of bashing people with different opinions, and try not to be so emotional in public when they call you out.


I thought you were out? Why are you still here?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 26, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You assuming my emotional state day in and day out is peak arrogance. You act like you know me when in reality you don't. I'd appreciate it if you stop acting like you do.
> 
> With the extra brain power gained by not concerning yourself trying to guess my emotional state, you might be able to piece together a coherent argument for once.


I have never heard anyone who is extremely secure say something like "Y-YOU DON'T KNOW MY EMOTIONAL STATE" lmaoooooo


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I have never heard anyone who is extremely secure say something like "Y-YOU DON'T KNOW MY EMOTIONAL STATE" lmaoooooo


I have never heard anyone who won a debate based on emotional arguments.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 26, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I have never... won a debate


we know


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> we know


We all know you can change people's words to fit your narrative. It's called propaganda.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 26, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> We all know you can change people's words to fit your narrative. It's called propaganda.


Yeah the big spooky reptilian shapeshifting jewish Laina is propagandizing your temper tantrums


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Yeah the big spooky reptilian shapeshifting groomer Laina is projecting their fantasies


FIFY


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 26, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> FIFY


Look who's editing posts now :^)


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Look who's editing posts now :^)


Don't like the taste of your own medicine? Cry moar, hypocrite.

Hey, @mituzora, found a hypocrite for you. Let's see if you have actual principles, unless you too are a hypocrite.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 26, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Don't like the taste of your own medicine? Cry moar, hypocrite.
> 
> Hey, @mituzora, found a hypocrite for you. Let's see if you have actual principles, unless you too are a hypocrite.


See you misunderstand, I don't care about people editing my posts. You however always soapbox about it like it's a big deal. Why?


----------



## appleburger (Aug 26, 2022)

@TraderPatTX , I'll play ball with you on the topic of gender - I'll make a deal with you; I'm going to refrain from lumping you in with 'the right' or boxing you up in general for this.

 I do want to understand what exactly you object to and why.  I know I've thrown you shade previously, but I'm gonna try a different approach and try to refrain from 'dunk' style posts and try to see if I can better understand your position and see where we ultimately are thinking differently.

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but it looks to me like you don't reject etymological changes, but that you reject the underlying premise behind the changes being talking about.

That premise being: adjusting our view on gender from purely physical in regards to sex, to cultural or attitudinal characteristics distinctive to the sexes.

Did I sum up your point?  Please feel free to correct that or add an addendum if I missed something.

Edit - I'm not sure if we can say this is tangentially on topic for this thread, but I'm okay with moving it if needed.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 26, 2022)

appleburger said:


> @TraderPatTX , I'll play ball with you on the topic of gender - I'll make a deal with you; I'm going to refrain from lumping you in with 'the right' or boxing you up in general for this.
> 
> I do want to understand what exactly you object to and why.  I know I've thrown you shade previously, but I'm gonna try a different approach and try to refrain from 'dunk' style posts and try to see if I can better understand your position and see where we ultimately are thinking differently.
> 
> ...


Ill sum it up for you.....

Pro-Life V.S. Pro-Choice and who is shity and a hypocrite... basicly this thread is shit.... but then again its a creamu thread


----------



## appleburger (Aug 26, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Ill sum it up for you.....
> 
> Pro-Life V.S. Pro-Choice and who is shity and a hypocrite... basicly this thread is shit.... but then again its a creamu thread


My goal here is understanding.  Don't get me wrong, I love dunk posts as much as the rest of you, just check my post history.

If I'm trying to really debate/discuss/explore something, though, I prefer the Socratic route so we don't have to spend too much energy refuting assumptions - especially with topics like this one.  Makes for more interesting conversation, too imo.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> See you misunderstand, I don't care about people editing my posts. You however always soapbox about it like it's a big deal. Why?


I don't like people changing my words. It doesn't matter that you don't care. That's called projection and you do it all the time.

I write words with intent behind them. You changing my words is you trying to change my intent. It's deceitful, disingenuous, and only makes you look untrustworthy. So unless you are 12, you should know better.

It's pretty stupid that the quote feature allows others to alter that text to begin with. I expect more from a tech site.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

appleburger said:


> @TraderPatTX , I'll play ball with you on the topic of gender - I'll make a deal with you; I'm going to refrain from lumping you in with 'the right' or boxing you up in general for this.
> 
> I do want to understand what exactly you object to and why.  I know I've thrown you shade previously, but I'm gonna try a different approach and try to refrain from 'dunk' style posts and try to see if I can better understand your position and see where we ultimately are thinking differently.
> 
> ...


The topic of this thread is pretty broad so I don't think you need to be worried about that.

However, I don't remember speaking of gender in this thread or in any other thread on here. If I have, I'm sure somebody will be more than happy to prove me wrong.

The reason why I try not to comment on gender is because I don't really care what people imagine what they are. I'm too old to play dressup or make-believe, especially with grown adults, and I'm not about to start changing my normal language that I've been speaking since I first started talking decades ago to appease people's delicate sensitivities.

But if all of you want to play dressup and make-believe on your own, have fun. I have adult things to worry about like inflation, gas prices, a human trafficker in the White House, the collapse of the banking system and fiat currency and rising crime. People are actually physically suffering at the hands of our uniparty government so if there are people out there that believe their perceived gender is a priority in their life, it just goes to show how privileged their life is.

I thank you for coming at me like an adult. I haven't had too many intelligent conversations here since it's the same 5 trolls who respond to my every comment (I kinda think they want me). I really appreciate a well thought out and even keeled comment that I can intelligently respond to. I hope others take note.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 26, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I do projection
> 
> You changing my words to change my intent. It's deceitful, disingenuous, and only makes me look pretty stupid


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 26, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> But if all of you want to play dressup and make-believe on your own, have fun. I have adult things to worry about like inflation, gas prices, a human trafficker in the White House, the collapse of the banking system and fiat currency and rising crime. People are actually physically suffering at the hands of our uniparty government so if there are people out there that believe their perceived gender is a priority in their life, it just goes to show how privileged their life is.


This is why I love calling you a coping weirdo because it's like, no one who isn't extremely insecure thinks that trans and other GNC people EXCLUSIVELY care about gender identity as an issue and none whatsoever. I've always been curious why stupid people have to fabricate people to soapbox about issues with. If you truly cared about the "uniparty" (lmao) you would actually be able to criticize it and listen to the criticism that comes from people on the left. You, for example, do not criticize the party for manufacturing consent, or creating issues specifically to drum up support for them with. You also exclusively spend your time here whining about "the left" relative to the Democrat party, even though they A) aren't left, and B) aren't active enough to justify demonization, and yet whenever the right misbehaves you are completely silent in criticizing them.

The fact of the matter is, you don't care about these issues, you just want to *look* like you do, for the sake of appearances. Don't worry though, everyone sees through it.


----------



## appleburger (Aug 27, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The topic of this thread is pretty broad so I don't think you need to be worried about that.
> 
> However, I don't remember speaking of gender in this thread or in any other thread on here. If I have, I'm sure somebody will be more than happy to prove me wrong.
> 
> ...


Oh, I saw the definitions and and false narrative comments and interpreted that as a rejection of:

_Adjusting our view on gender from purely physical in regards to sex, to cultural or attitudinal characteristics distinctive to the sexes._

For sake of argument though, would you accept or reject this change in view of gender?

*Edited for clarity


----------



## mituzora (Aug 27, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Don't like the taste of your own medicine? Cry moar, hypocrite.
> 
> Hey, @mituzora, found a hypocrite for you. Let's see if you have actual principles, unless you too are a hypocrite.


You asked me why I was still here, so I left.  You @'d me so, here I am.  but on the subject of changing people's quotes, you both did it, but when she did it back to you, you got super bent out of shape,  don't dish out what you can't take yourself.  How is this hypocritical when you both did it to each other, so in that regard, neither of you are better than one or the other.  At this point, you two are just going back and forth with each other.  Let me ask you this,  why is it hypocritical when she does it, but it's okay when you do it?  are you willing to call yourself a hypocrite for doing the same thing?  Not bashing here, a legitimate question.  I do think quote changing and then bashing each other over nothing is childish on both fronts.


TraderPatTX said:


> However, I don't remember speaking of gender in this thread or in any other thread on here. If I have, I'm sure somebody will be more than happy to prove me wrong.



You're RIght, I am going to say something, because you asked me to define woman, and then got bent out of shape when I said assumptions are okay,  assuming you were attempting to make a point.  If you don't care about people calling themselves different genders, that's kinda not okay, but it's your provocative, and it's not that big of a problem as long as you aren't being a dick about it.  You don't have to accept something to tolerate it, and please if there is someone using a gender reassignment as to justify problematic behaviors., by all means, call them out, because that causes problems for the people who really do feel like a different gender.  They're the reason why there's so many people who have problems with gender reassignment as a whole, and frankly I have issues with it too.  I personally accept people going by a different gender than assigned at birth, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to call them out for being a toxic person. 

I'd gladly talk to you in a regular, non heated conversation.  But when you get heated yourself, it's hard for me to have said conversation.  Hopefully I've made that clear with my interactions with you outside of the political posts. My first post on this thread was not heated, minus the "microaggression" of stating that you were projecting.  You don't want me to come at you heated?  don't reply back to me with a heated response and then questioning a bunch of definitions to fit your narrative of bad left people not being able to make definitions. Sorry if you don't think I can't have a logical conversation with you. 

back on the subject, I agree with you,  this is why the country is so divided, because no matter what side you're on,  one person can say something the opposite of your beliefs, and the other person immediately sees red, starts bashing, and refuses to listen.  I definitely know I am guilty of this too.  I think this is exasperated with the last decade of social media addiction and algorithms built to push the hateful rhetoric.  honestly if we met in person, we'd probably get along just fine as I get along just fine with people that have completely differing opinions to my own, but for some reason the internet likes to take those opinions and turn them to 11.

edit:  back on the gender subject;  there's a really good episode of South Park called the Death camp for Tolerance which addresses this to an extent.  It's still pretty topical and I think it's incredibly important to watch for both sides.  If you haven't seen it,  It's an amazing episode and I would advise you to watch through it if you want.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 27, 2022)

City said:


> Because right and left in the US are generally divided in the middle.


False. There is a large section of people who likely are left leaning. But don't vote due to disenfranchisement. Most of the country is left leaning at this point. And I say left very loosely here, including left of or including Democrats which is moderate right.


----------



## City (Aug 27, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> False. There is a large section of people who likely are left leaning. But don't vote due to disenfranchisement. Most of the country is left leaning at this point. And I say left very loosely here, including left of or including Democrats which is moderate right.


"Likely".


GTFO


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 27, 2022)

City said:


> "Likely".
> 
> 
> GTFO


It's just a statement of fact. I say likely because basing off of evidence that is not yet proven, but using evidence relating to the subject to infer what it would be.

To explain what I mean. We don't know what every persons opinion is, left or right leaning. However, we can infer by just one major proven factor
population density. In more dense areas, people are more left leaning. There's more people living in cities than rual areas. As result, _likely_ being left leaning just under that one correlation.
However, while it is a inference, that doesn't make it  fact. Because if I said "most people are left leaning" that would be factually wrong. Hence the probability statement thrown in. Making it factual to say. There's not much to prove other wise.

now why your getting so bent out of shape over the term "likely" and not explaining why, well, I got a few guess as to why.


----------



## City (Aug 27, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> It's just a statement of fact. I say likely because basing off of evidence that is not yet proven, but using evidence relating to the subject to infer what it would be.
> 
> To explain what I mean. We don't know what every persons opinion is, left or right leaning. However, we can infer by just one major proven factor
> population density. In more dense areas, people are more left leaning. There's more people living in cities than rual areas. As result, _likely_ being left leaning just under that one correlation.
> ...


"statement of fact"

"likely"

OMFG


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 27, 2022)

City said:


> "statement of fact"
> 
> "likely"
> 
> OMFG


Wow that is sure whole lot of cope.
If a weighted coin was designed to land on tails more frequently than heads. It would be a statement of fact to say "it's likely to land on tails"
Me saying "it's likely most people are left leaning because of population density"
Is also a statement a fact.
Saying that the the coin WILL land on tails is not a statement a fact. Because the coin can still land on heads, just very unlikely. Same for my statement. It would be wrong to say "most people are left leaning"
Because the actual result is unproven. And thus a very small chance to be wrong. A already small chance decreasing but never reaching 0 as population density in a area increases.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 28, 2022)

City said:


> "Likely".
> 
> 
> GTFO


cope


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 28, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> False. There is a large section of people who likely are left leaning. But don't vote due to disenfranchisement. Most of the country is left leaning at this point. And I say left very loosely here, including left of or including Democrats which is moderate right.


you kinda ruined your augment there....


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 28, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> you kinda ruined your augment there....


fair enough, went a little too far with my assertion there, oh well.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

appleburger said:


> Oh, I saw the definitions and and false narrative comments and interpreted that as a rejection of:
> 
> _Adjusting our view on gender from purely physical in regards to sex, to cultural or attitudinal characteristics distinctive to the sexes._
> 
> ...


People can do whatever they want as long as they aren't bothering me or harming others. Taking kids to drag strip bars is harmful. Talking to kindergarteners about sex is harmful and creepy. Telling kids to hide it from their parents screams of stranger danger. Forcing other people to talk in a strange way so they can feel good about themselves is peak privilege. Assigning unwanted labels like Latinx is colonization, especially since the group that it labels hates it with a 90%+ majority.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

mituzora said:


> You asked me why I was still here, so I left.  You @'d me so, here I am.  but on the subject of changing people's quotes, you both did it, but when she did it back to you, you got super bent out of shape,  don't dish out what you can't take yourself.  How is this hypocritical when you both did it to each other, so in that regard, neither of you are better than one or the other.  At this point, you two are just going back and forth with each other.  Let me ask you this,  why is it hypocritical when she does it, but it's okay when you do it?  are you willing to call yourself a hypocrite for doing the same thing?  Not bashing here, a legitimate question.  I do think quote changing and then bashing each other over nothing is childish on both fronts.
> 
> 
> You're RIght, I am going to say something, because you asked me to define woman, and then got bent out of shape when I said assumptions are okay,  assuming you were attempting to make a point.  If you don't care about people calling themselves different genders, that's kinda not okay, but it's your provocative, and it's not that big of a problem as long as you aren't being a dick about it.  You don't have to accept something to tolerate it, and please if there is someone using a gender reassignment as to justify problematic behaviors., by all means, call them out, because that causes problems for the people who really do feel like a different gender.  They're the reason why there's so many people who have problems with gender reassignment as a whole, and frankly I have issues with it too.  I personally accept people going by a different gender than assigned at birth, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to call them out for being a toxic person.
> ...


If you read further in history, you would have seen that @LainaGabranth changed my words first, but I guess you were too lazy to do even that.

The rest I didn't read, because sometimes I too, am lazy.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 30, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If you read further in history, you would have seen
> 
> The rest I didn't read, because I am lazy.


:^)

The difference between you and me is that you don't know how forums work and get mad at fictional understandings of honor while I, a based DBL don't give a shit about your feelings. Reality > your emotions


----------



## appleburger (Aug 30, 2022)

Okay, so I'm going to assume you accept this, then:
_Adjusting our view on gender from purely physical in regards to sex, to cultural or attitudinal characteristics distinctive to the sexes._

If that's the case, then we both are in agreement on what we mean by gender, so that helps us get some footing.

So now I feel like I can work with this and look at what you object to in regards to the Trans community as a whole.


TraderPatTX said:


> People can do whatever they want as long as they aren't bothering me or harming others.


Might sound obvious at first, but what do we mean by 'bothering me or harming others.'?

I understand what you're going for by then following this up with acts you deem harmful that you object to, but I'm trying to get what's in your head into mine, so I'm interested in where you draw those lines objectively (or as close as we can get) in addition to that.

As for this:


> Taking kids to drag strip bars is harmful. Talking to kindergarteners about sex is harmful and creepy. Telling kids to hide it from their parents screams of stranger danger. Forcing other people to talk in a strange way so they can feel good about themselves is peak privilege. Assigning unwanted labels like Latinx is colonization, especially since the group that it labels hates it with a 90%+ majority.


What do you believe caused these?


----------



## mituzora (Aug 30, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If you read further in history, you would have seen that @LainaGabranth changed my words first, but I guess you were too lazy to do even that.
> 
> The rest I didn't read, because sometimes I too, am lazy.


alright, way to act like a child there.  you sound like a sibling bickering over spilled milk.

you literally sound like a petty brat that is pissed that their sibling isn't getting yelled at.   way to prove that you can't take anything in a serious manner on these forums.  You're not here to argue logic, you're just here to stir up the pot.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

mituzora said:


> alright, way to act like a child there.  you sound like a sibling bickering over spilled milk.
> 
> you literally sound like a petty brat that is pissed that their sibling isn't getting yelled at.   way to prove that you can't take anything in a serious manner on these forums.  You're not here to argue logic, you're just here to stir up the pot.


I asked her politely to refrain from changing my words. She continues to this day. Now I just ignore her as she is nothing but a petty troll.

Let me know when you tell her these exact words. I'd be interested to see how far you get.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

appleburger said:


> Okay, so I'm going to assume you accept this, then:
> _Adjusting our view on gender from purely physical in regards to sex, to cultural or attitudinal characteristics distinctive to the sexes._
> 
> If that's the case, then we both are in agreement on what we mean by gender, so that helps us get some footing.
> ...


I explained it in my comment.

Don't make me use weird words and definitely do not try to cancel me when I refuse. That's straight up fascist.

Quit trying to get kids to take puberty blockers and irreversibly alter their bodies with surgery. Kids still believe in Santa Clause, they already live in a fantasy land and not able to make life changing decisions.

Quit letting men take over women's sports. It is physically unfair and robs women of potential scholarships.

Quit talking to kindergartners about sex and telling them to keep it from their parents. It's creepy as hell and screams of stranger danger.

Stupid suburban wine moms who crave attention because their husbands are spending nights with their mistresses. Dave Chappelle also summed it up pretty nicely in his "controversial" Netflix special.

These are really pretty simple concepts and should be noncontroversial. They used to be not many years ago.


----------



## appleburger (Aug 30, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I explained it in my comment.


I didn't get across what I meant, then - I'll try and re-phrase:

I meant specifically, what do you think is causing that list of things to happen?  They're related, right?  So I'm offering to clear up the ambiguity to get me closer to how you think about this.

*Example*, if we were talking about Nazis, I could list out things Nazis have done that I object to, but we can then go a step further and list _why _they felt justified doing those things.  It's why we bring up Marxism, communism, etc. when we talk about them, right?  We're highlighting the fundamental issue - it helps explain the flawed thinking, and from there the reasoning takes care of the rest.  Otherwise, you give Nazi defenders in this case, an opportunity to list out other aspects of Nazi-ism that aren't so bad, or a counter list of justifications, and you can do that all day long.

I'm interested in understanding what you believe is causing the lists you gave in regards to the trans community, because listing them together in your post strongly suggests you believe there's a common thread.

If you're not sure, that's fine, too - but it reads like you're suggesting these are all expected behavior from any given member of the trans community, I just didn't want to make that assumption.

I promise my goal isn't endless questions, I'm trying to understand your case so we can be on the same page and I can offer counter points where we differ on this.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

appleburger said:


> I didn't get across what I meant, then - I'll try and re-phrase:
> 
> I meant specifically, what do you think is causing that list of things to happen?  They're related, right?  So I'm offering to clear up the ambiguity to get me closer to how you think about this.
> 
> ...


That's easy. The transgender agenda is spread by the state-run media with huge assists from social media and fact checkers. It's how a minority voice seems to be a majority.

They are forced to silence dissenting speech (Libs of TikTok) because their arguments do not hold up. It's interesting that the University of Washington Medicine quietly retracted their study showing that hormone treatments and gender reassignment surgery drastically decreased depression in trans teens. The study was flawed and collapsed when questioned. Parents are actually announcing that their 4 year olds are coming out as trans. That's not an original idea from a 4 year old. That idea was planted there by someone seeking attention.

People with gender dysphoria need psychological help, not irreversible hormone treatments and surgery. My heart goes out to them because they are being lied to.

Why anybody still puts their trust in the media is beyond me. They lie about everything. They are just trying to divide us into smaller and smaller groups so we continually fight each other and ignore their crimes. And we keep falling for it.

Don't worry about asking too many questions. I hope my response clears a few things up for you.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 31, 2022)

Fascism: The complete control of economy, politics, and culture, all under one party in a nation that exalts racial purity and supremacy over all else

What fascism is not: "Hey, you can't just call me slurs for asking you to use different pronouns."


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I asked her politely to refrain from changing my words. She continues to this day. Now I just ignore her as she is nothing but a petty troll.
> 
> Let me know when you tell her these exact words. I'd be interested to see how far you get.


I just think it's funny how mad you get like you think you're owed respect or have any resemblance of honor in a video game forum.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 31, 2022)

I go a few days without responding to this shit.


TraderPatTX said:


> Taking kids to drag strip bars is harmful


Which doesn't happen. We already went over this story. Either the 16 year old knew what was happening (had his phone on him. Could of called the police at any time. Or told his dad something was wrong) and the timeline of events don't make sense from a time perspective.
Moving on from that non story




TraderPatTX said:


> Talking to kindergarteners about sex is harmful and creepy.


Except nobody does. Unless your (the person arguing) is trying to conflate sex with gender. Talking about gender is fine. We do it all the time. What the fuck do you think pronouns are? Again, only you are the one trying to imply there is some sort of kabal that needs to check everyones pants. Which unironically you seem to support them by refusing to believe gender exists.




TraderPatTX said:


> That's easy. The transgender agenda is spread by the state-run media


State run?
Really???
Okay trader, last time I checked every fucking news outlet under the sun is run as a corporation. How the fuck would it be state run? Do you even know what that means????




TraderPatTX said:


> They are forced to silence dissenting speech (Libs of TikTok)


Libs of tiktok was found to actually be intentionally misclipping of people to prove their argument, causing teachers extreme harassment from otherwise mundane boring videos.

So no. It's not just "dissenting speech" it's violent speech towards another group of people design using fake evidence to keep beating a drum against group of minorities. Just like Alex Jones and sandy hook. aka stotastic terrorism.




TraderPatTX said:


> People with gender dysphoria need psychological help,


That's false. Doctors identified best practices. Most of the time, resolving the issue requires transitioning. So no.
You don't know more than doctors. So please stop trying to rule what they should do.
They already have a damn mess to deal with mother's having to give birth to fetuses with no heads because of your own laws. All because it's still alive. Or doctors afraid to do anything that could look as an abortion due to 10 years of jailtime and 10,000 dollars that they very likely can't pay for. You know. Considering student loan debt.




TraderPatTX said:


> Why anybody still puts their trust in the media is beyond me.


Why do you continue to trust it? Because trader, you are consuming that media. You just went on to talk about libs of tick tock. Suprise, that's part of the media.

We don't live in a world where just news is the media. Just like the democrats and republicans. Your given two fake options. And so you have rejected one option. And embraced the other fake option.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> They lie about everything. They are just trying to divide us into smaller and smaller groups so we continually fight each other and ignore their crimes.


Okay is that not exactly what you are perpetuating? Think for fuck sake. Your side is constantly attacking. One year it was abortion. Another it was trans. Another year and it was against Mexicans. Another year it was against gay people. And that's just the start.
Edit: what about masks? I already pointed out before but I'll repeat. If we didn't waste our time debating if masks work or not, or your side arguing that hydroxy worked (which it clearly doesn't) we could of spent more time fucking over bill gates and him patenting one of the covid vaccines. Because that is utterly spineless to profit off the need of a vaccine. People died because poorer countries couldn't afford it.
None of those attacks are uniting. NONE. They are dividing.
What do you get in return from these attacks? To you stopped an evil threat. But what else? Did it fix your job? Did it make it so people are less poor? Did it make the rich have less power over us? Did it fix the busted two tier justice system?
Did it make your life easier?
No. None of them do.
Go outside. Unplug.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> I go a few days without responding to this shit.
> 
> Which doesn't happen. We already went over this story. Either the 16 year old knew what was happening (had his phone on him. Could of called the police at any time. Or told his dad something was wrong) and the timeline of events don't make sense from a time perspective.
> Moving on from that non story
> ...


https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/l...test/287-c7984c66-6141-4690-97b1-ec0b9882b4bb

What's the word when government tells corporations what to do and say? Hint: bundle of sticks

Misclipping, lol. They admit that they are intentionally telling kids not to tell their parents what they are talking about in class. What was clipped out? They all saying "Sike!! Gotcha bitch" at the end?

Mutilating kids is not a treatment. Not sure what the rest of this paragraph is about.

Media = Corporate media/government conglomerate. I thought you people were against corporations?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Okay is that not exactly what you are perpetuating? Think for fuck sake. Your side is constantly attacking. One year it was abortion. Another it was trans. Another year and it was against Mexicans. Another year it was against gay people. And that's just the start.
> Edit: what about masks? I already pointed out before but I'll repeat. If we didn't waste our time debating if masks work or not, or your side arguing that hydroxy worked (which it clearly doesn't) we could of spent more time fucking over bill gates and him patenting one of the covid vaccines. Because that is utterly spineless to profit off the need of a vaccine. People died because poorer countries couldn't afford it.
> None of those attacks are uniting. NONE. They are dividing.
> What do you get in return from these attacks? To you stopped an evil threat. But what else? Did it fix your job? Did it make it so people are less poor? Did it make the rich have less power over us? Did it fix the busted two tier justice system?
> ...


So you think that debating is a waste of time and we should just accept every leftwing point of view, even if it's been proven false?

I guess calling people fascists, Nazis, racists, homophobes, terrorists, transphobes, Islamaphobes, sexists, deplorables, etc is what you call uniting? I know you can't see me but I'm currently flipping you off.

You sure do seem wound up for somebody who takes frequent breaks. Maybe you should try meditation. It gets me through those tough days too. Good luck, bro.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Mutilating kids is not a treatment.


And that's my daily dose of you.
I've gone over this how many times now?
How many?
FFs.
Hormone therapy (including puberty blockers in this statement. Which is done at 12) is only done at the age 16. That's it.
Nothing else happens while they are a kid
Sex change (changing your whatever's to something else) is strictly at 21+ thing.

No matter how many times I tell you, no matter how many times I try to get through to you, no matter what amount of effort I try. You come back to the exact same talking points. And that's why I'm tired of it. Because I'm not talking to a person. I'm talking to some brick wall who pretends they know more than doctors and believes they are infallable.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> And that's my daily dose of you.
> I've gone over this how many times now?
> How many?
> FFs.
> ...


Sorry if I refuse to take your word on things when you provide no proof and I see the exact opposite being pushed everywhere. If you notice, I provided a link disproving you and a picture that you completely ignored because you can't defend it.

I know you can't see me, but I'm flipping you off and laughing hysterically.


----------



## mrdude (Aug 31, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> "Hey, you can't just call me slurs for asking you to use different pronouns."


Pronouns are Sooooo yesterday, today it's all about adjectives - you can now  refer to me as "The Supreme Overlord", if you don't I'll be offended and start bitching about it to anyone that will listen.....hopefully Soros, The MSM  and Antifa will be on my side.


----------



## appleburger (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> That's easy. The transgender agenda is spread by the state-run media with huge assists from social media and fact checkers. It's how a minority voice seems to be a majority.
> 
> They are forced to silence dissenting speech (Libs of TikTok) because their arguments do not hold up. It's interesting that the University of Washington Medicine quietly retracted their study showing that hormone treatments and gender reassignment surgery drastically decreased depression in trans teens. The study was flawed and collapsed when questioned. Parents are actually announcing that their 4 year olds are coming out as trans. That's not an original idea from a 4 year old. That idea was planted there by someone seeking attention.
> 
> ...


Perfect, this is what I was looking for.  Let's keep going.  I'm going to select your opening statement first:



> The transgender agenda is spread by the state-run media with huge assists from social media and fact checkers. It's how a minority voice seems to be a majority.


So, I think we can break this into these parts (Please change what I have in bold, if we're not on the same page):

*There is a transgender agenda.*
I'm assuming this is what we both would mean by agenda:
_the ongoing process by which various groups attempt to transfer their interests to be the interests of public policymakers._

*This agenda is spread by state-run media, social media, and fact checkers.*
So, would you say the adoption of this agenda is equally due to each of these?  Why or why not?  I read it as the state-run media is the perpetuator, and then affirmed by social media and fact checkers.

*This agenda reflects a minority opinion.  The majority of Americans disagree with the points from the agenda.*
I think we can attempt to put this to the test.  Now, I don't expect either of us to have full knowledge of what's going on, of course, but we can use some evidence to help make sense of why you or I would be convinced otherwise.

The first step will be to agree on a decent source for measuring this.  I think our best bet will be through survey research, though I'm open to suggestion.

As for the ideal 'perfect' source, we'd need to find something as nonbiased as possible, however I realize that's a tall order. My vote is Pewresearch: https://www.pewresearch.org/about/

Quick article defending the reliability of Pew: https://www.thefactual.com/blog/is-pew-research-biased/

Pew is often used as a source for fact checker sites itself, so I felt it'd make sense to go that route, but I'm open to suggestions if you want to pull in survey data from elsewhere - we can also wait to pass judgment until after we pull up a survey to reference our points and go from there.

*Edited for clarity


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 31, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Fascism: The complete control of economy, politics, and culture, all under one party in a nation that exalts racial purity and supremacy over all else
> 
> What fascism is not: "Hey, you can't just call me slurs for asking you to use different pronouns."


Well, yea.... thats just common decency


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 31, 2022)

mrdude said:


> Pronouns are Sooooo yesterday, today it's all about adjectives - you can now  refer to me as "The Supreme Overlord", if you don't I'll be offended and start bitching about it to anyone that will listen.....hopefully Soros, The MSM  and Antifa will be on my side.


I feel bad for the conservatives who have to tell themselves posts like this are funny LMAO


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 31, 2022)

came back, how u all doin, hope you all enjoy the arguing, i know i am


----------



## tabzer (Sep 1, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> I feel bad for the conservatives who have to tell themselves posts like this are funny LMAO



Who do they think they are fooling?  LMAO


----------



## Marc_LFD (Sep 1, 2022)

It's not just the U.S., most of the Western world.

If I could I would just ditch to some other planet to avoid the insanity and nonsense. Whomever created humans gave them too much power and now there's humanoids trying to play deities.

I honestly wouldn't mind living without technology, it'd actually be a breath of fresh air. Just nature and what comes of it.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Sep 1, 2022)

Complaining about humans as a race is a very weak take. Realizing that it's people in power who have created systems that unjustly coerce people into behaving irrationally just to survive and keep said higher ups in power, and then wanting to [REDACTED] said people in power is the best outlook. Wanting to abandon a planet because your slave masters made your neighbor a shithead is weak nerd shit.


----------



## tabzer (Sep 1, 2022)

So it's not your fault that you are a shithead.  It's the fault of your "slave masters".  Compelling.


----------



## SG854 (Sep 1, 2022)

mrdude said:


> Pronouns are Sooooo yesterday, today it's all about adjectives - you can now  refer to me as "The Supreme Overlord", if you don't I'll be offended and start bitching about it to anyone that will listen.....hopefully Soros, The MSM  and Antifa will be on my side.


Does mrsdude approve of this behavior?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

appleburger said:


> Perfect, this is what I was looking for.  Let's keep going.  I'm going to select your opening statement first:
> 
> 
> So, I think we can break this into these parts (Please change what I have in bold, if we're not on the same page):
> ...


You see it every day. School boards making policy against parents' wishes. The fact that they are telling kids to not tell their parents tells you all you need to know. These same policies get pushed to the state and national level.


appleburger said:


> *This agenda is spread by state-run media, social media, and fact checkers.*
> So, would you say the adoption of this agenda is equally due to each of these?  Why or why not?  I read it as the state-run media is the perpetuator, and then affirmed by social media and fact checkers.


I would say that 10 years ago, nobody was talking about this until the media started focusing on it. Back in the day, today's "trans" were just cross-dressers and tomboys. 


appleburger said:


> *This agenda reflects a minority opinion.  The majority of Americans disagree with the points from the agenda.*
> I think we can attempt to put this to the test.  Now, I don't expect either of us to have full knowledge of what's going on, of course, but we can use some evidence to help make sense of why you or I would be convinced otherwise.


Obviously transgender along with the rest of the alphabet people are minorities or they wouldn't be able to say they are oppressed. Yet they never say how they are oppressed. Minors in general are not allowed to undergo medical procedures without parental consent, trans or not. Not sure what other "rights" are being trampled as it's never said.


appleburger said:


> The first step will be to agree on a decent source for measuring this.  I think our best bet will be through survey research, though I'm open to suggestion.
> 
> As for the ideal 'perfect' source, we'd need to find something as nonbiased as possible, however I realize that's a tall order. My vote is Pewresearch: https://www.pewresearch.org/about/
> 
> ...


Earlier divisions have been sexual orientation, race, sex, income, political party. How many on the left have you heard say "We are all Americans" in the last 10 years? Very few. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. The rich "elite" keep dividing us into smaller and smaller groups to pit us against each other so we ignore what they are doing and we keep falling for it every damn time. People need to understand when America loses, We the People lose, not just some of us.


----------



## appleburger (Sep 1, 2022)

> appleburger said:
> 
> 
> > *There is a transgender agenda.*
> ...


This was a definition check to make sure we both mean the same thing when we say 'agenda', so I think we're in agreement with the definition.



> *This agenda is spread by state-run media, social media, and fact checkers.*
> So, would you say the adoption of this agenda is equally due to each of these? Why or why not? I read it as the state-run media is the perpetuator, and then affirmed by social media and fact checkers.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         I would say that 10 years ago, nobody was talking about this until the media started focusing on it. Back in the day, today's "trans" were just cross-dressers and tomboys.


I'm hearing that you feel information from the media cannot be trusted, like you've said previously.  What's your preferred source for information?  Why do you trust it?  Do you feel your political opponents are more inclined to consume state-run media than your peers?  Or do you feel the majority of people are guilty, regardless of political beliefs?



> Obviously transgender along with the rest of the alphabet people are minorities or they wouldn't be able to say they are oppressed. Yet they never say how they are oppressed. Minors in general are not allowed to undergo medical procedures without parental consent, trans or not. Not sure what other "rights" are being trampled as it's never said.


I think we missed each other, here - I thought you were saying the smaller (minority) opinion looks more popular than it is due to media.  As an example, "only 10% of Americans support the idea of trans identities, but the media makes it look like it's 90%" - something along those lines.

Can you help me understand what you mean by "That's how the minority sounds like the majority"?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

appleburger said:


> I'm hearing that you feel information from the media cannot be trusted, like you've said previously.  What's your preferred source for information?  Why do you trust it?  Do you feel your political opponents are more inclined to consume state-run media than your peers?  Or do you feel the majority of people are guilty, regardless of political beliefs?


How many times does the corporate media have to lie before people stop believing them? I stopped taking them seriously years ago, and I'm including Fox News in that group. Judging by the comments people respond to me with here, yes, the left does consume corporate media and they don't even question it. I think we are in a transition.

I follow citizen journalists because they tend to report directly from court documents and filings and other originally sourced materials and when they are wrong, they issue public corrections, not stealth edits like the corporate media does.


appleburger said:


> I think we missed each other, here - I thought you were saying the smaller (minority) opinion looks more popular than it is due to media.  As an example, "only 10% of Americans support the idea of trans identities, but the media makes it look like it's 90%" - something along those lines.
> 
> Can you help me understand what you mean by "That's how the minority sounds like the majority"?


The minority uses the corporate media, social media and Hollywood as bullhorns. Since that is what the majority of people see and hear, it gives the impression that the minority is actually a majority. That is why people are being censored and canceled on all platforms for wrongthink.


----------



## appleburger (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Judging by the comments people respond to me with here, yes, the left does consume corporate media and they don't even question it. I think we are in a transition.


If you had to pick the best example of a corporate media talking point on trans activism, what would it be?  What is that in conflict with?


TraderPatTX said:


> I follow citizen journalists because they tend to report directly from court documents and filings and other originally sourced materials and when they are wrong, they issue public corrections, not stealth edits like the corporate media does.


What are some of your go-to citizen journalist sources?  I won't be pedantic about it, just curious.



TraderPatTX said:


> The minority uses the corporate media, social media and Hollywood as bullhorns. Since that is what the majority of people see and hear, it gives the impression that the minority is actually a majority. That is why people are being censored and canceled on all platforms for wrongthink.


I understand what you mean when you say 'the state-run media pushed the trans agenda', but I don't understand the minority looking like the majority just yet, because I can think of two meanings for each of those terms.

I'd like to find some more specific verbiage from minority and majority, since they're vague enough to allow for these interpretations:
1. Population of people that do/don't identify as trans
2. Population of people that do/don't agree with the trans agenda

So, when you say 'the impression that the minority is actually a majority', can you help me make that statement more specific?

Now that we're getting to some specifics, I think it's a good point to introduce some numbers.  Like I said in my earlier post, you (or anybody else who) can offer an alternative if you'd like.  I feel like this should be a decent one, though: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-...ws-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/

Disclaimer - I have not read this.  I'm offering it as a road map for where we take this discussion, and I'll want to use some sort of frame of reference that's as close to hard data as I can afford - the source is subject to change if we want.

That being said - does any of the data on that page surprise you?  Is any of it in conflict or support of what you would have expected?  I'll get to reading through it and let you know what I think, assuming we're still on the same page and train of thought here.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

appleburger said:


> If you had to pick the best example of a corporate media talking point on trans activism, what would it be?  What is that in conflict with?


That hormone treatments are reversible.


appleburger said:


> What are some of your go-to citizen journalist sources?  I won't be pedantic about it, just curious.


Depends on the topic. For this one in particular, nobody, even though Christopher Rufo does fine work.


appleburger said:


> I understand what you mean when you say 'the state-run media pushed the trans agenda', but I don't understand the minority looking like the majority just yet, because I can think of two meanings for each of those terms.
> 
> I'd like to find some more specific verbiage from minority and majority, since they're vague enough to allow for these interpretations:
> 1. Population of people that do/don't identify as trans
> ...


Both. It is established fact that social media is full of bots programmed to push certain agendas.


appleburger said:


> Now that we're getting to some specifics, I think it's a good point to introduce some numbers.  Like I said in my earlier post, you (or anybody else who) can offer an alternative if you'd like.  I feel like this should be a decent one, though: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-...ws-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/
> 
> Disclaimer - I have not read this.  I'm offering it as a road map for where we take this discussion, and I'll want to use some sort of frame of reference that's as close to hard data as I can afford - the source is subject to change if we want.
> 
> That being said - does any of the data on that page surprise you?  Is any of it in conflict or support of what you would have expected?  I'll get to reading through it and let you know what I think, assuming we're still on the same page and train of thought here.


It shows that a majority of people are against discrimination. That's easy to agree with. People shouldn't be discriminated against, especially those with mental issues. There is nothing surprising about that survey.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Christopher Rufo


LIKE CLOCKWORK LOL.
Of course you listen to the guy that manufactured the CRT outrage, it explains why you so constantly mirror his rhetoric.


----------



## tabzer (Sep 2, 2022)

Seeing systemic racism in choosing which socks to wear is a healthy state of being.


----------



## Jayro (Dec 27, 2022)

Creamu said:


> The U.S. is more dangerously divided than any other wealthy democracy. Is there a way back from the brink?


Absolutely. Get rid of all Libertarians and Republicans. Sounds hastey, but good can't thrive while living among evil. If we were a fully democratic nation (left-wing across the board), where everyone was caring to each other, we help the homeless, fully fund public schools, and tie the hands of billionaires (Including lobbyists), then we'd be a much better-off nation than we are now. There's literally no need to be a conservative in today's world. They're backward-thinking, pro-corporation, anti-humanitarian, greedy as fuck, they vote down anything that actually HELPS the American people, and they get very hung up on stupid things that don't really matter or concern them. (Like drag queens reading stories to children, for example.)

	Post automatically merged: Dec 27, 2022



SG854 said:


> Does mrsdude approve of this behavior?


If he even had a girlfriend or wife, I'd be shocked. But then again, women are suckers for toxic men...


----------



## CommanderCool (Dec 27, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Absolutely. Get rid of all Libertarians and Republicans. Sounds hastey, but good can't thrive while living among evil. If we were a fully democratic nation (left-wing across the board), where everyone was caring to each other, we help the homeless, fully fund public schools, and tie the hands of billionaires (Including lobbyists), then we'd be a much better-off nation than we are now. There's literally no need to be a conservative in today's world. They're backward-thinking, pro-corporation, anti-humanitarian, greedy as fuck, they vote down anything that actually HELPS the American people, and they get very hung up on stupid things that don't really matter or concern them. (Like drag queens reading stories to children, for example.)
> 
> Post automatically merged: Dec 27, 2022
> 
> ...


waiting on traderpattx tirade in 3...2...1...


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 27, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Absolutely. Get rid of all Libertarians and Republicans. Sounds hastey, but good can't thrive while living among evil. If we were a fully democratic nation (left-wing across the board), where everyone was caring to each other, we help the homeless, fully fund public schools, and tie the hands of billionaires (Including lobbyists), then we'd be a much better-off nation than we are now. There's literally no need to be a conservative in today's world. They're backward-thinking, pro-corporation, anti-humanitarian, greedy as fuck, they vote down anything that actually HELPS the American people, and they get very hung up on stupid things that don't really matter or concern them. (Like drag queens reading stories to children, for example.)
> 
> Post automatically merged: Dec 27, 2022
> 
> ...





Jayro said:


> Absolutely. Get rid of all Libertarians and Republicans. Sounds hastey, but good can't thrive while living among evil.


Get rid of us how? Gonna bring back the gas chambers? Those worked very efficiently the last time the left used them.


Jayro said:


> If we were a fully democratic nation (left-wing across the board), where everyone was caring to each other, we help the homeless, fully fund public schools, and tie the hands of billionaires (Including lobbyists), then we'd be a much better-off nation than we are now. There's literally no need to be a conservative in today's world. They're backward-thinking, pro-corporation,


The left supports the following:

1. The FBI and Twitter infringing on people's 1st Amendment rights.
2. The CIA and DOD running psyops on social media.
3. Silencing Harvard doctors and the most peer reviewed cardiologist by tech employees at the direction of the government.
4. Forcing people to take experimental jabs from Big Pharma paid for by taxpayers.
5. Forcing people to buy health insurance from private corporations.
6. Regurgitate whatever the tax exempt corporate media feeds you.
7. Supported corporations stay open and in business during Covid while small businesses were shut down forever.

How's that homeless problem in California going? Looks like it's getting worse.

Name a public school that is not fully funded.

We can at least agree about lobbyist. Nice.


Jayro said:


> anti-humanitarian, greedy as fuck, they vote down anything that actually HELPS the American people, and they get very hung up on stupid things that don't really matter or concern them. (Like drag queens reading stories to children, for example.)


The left supports drag queens who are also on the sex registery as pedos reading to kids.

https://metrovoicenews.com/convicted-sex-offenders-holding-drag-queen-story-time-at-texas-libraries/

Hope this clears up some stuff for you.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 27, 2022)

We’re not going to have a kumbaya moment here, so I suggest that everyone puts down their pitchforks and bows out. Flaming in the section is strictly prohibited, and there won’t be another warning after this one - simmer down, boys and girls.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 28, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Absolutely. Get rid of all Libertarians and Republicans


Objectively correct take. Though you said Republicans twice!


----------



## Jayro (Dec 28, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Objectively correct take. Though you said Republicans twice!


Exactly, gotta make sure you get _ALL_  of them, not leaving any behind.


----------



## SG854 (Dec 28, 2022)

Then any other wealthy democracy? Isn't that a good thing. 

Don't wanna be all a hive mind of all racists.


----------



## BlueFox gui (Dec 28, 2022)

left wing people and right wing people having wild gay sex in american lande


----------



## SG854 (Dec 28, 2022)

BlueFox gui said:


> left wing people and right wing people having wild gay sex in american lande


Right Wing people just don't want to admit it like Left Wing


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 28, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Exactly, gotta make sure you get _ALL_  of them, not leaving any behind.


I'm genuinely curious about how you plan on getting rid of 74 million+  people.


----------



## Xzi (Dec 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I'm genuinely curious about how you plan on getting rid of 74 million+  people.


Deport 'em to Russia, it's exactly the type of country they claim to want to live in anyway.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 28, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Deport 'em to Russia, it's exactly the type of country they claim to want to live in anyway.


The largest passenger plane is the Airbus A380-800 and can hold a maximum 853 people. Only 242 were made before it was retired in 2021. It would take 86,753 separate flights. That is logistically impossible.

If this is a serious thought, you people need hobbies to occupy your time. Or jobs.


----------



## Jayro (Dec 28, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Deport 'em to Russia, it's exactly the type of country they claim to want to live in anyway.


Exactly.They wanna live under Authoritarianism, so ship 'em off to Russia.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Exactly.They wanna live under Authoritarianism, so ship 'em off to Russia.


How is decentralizing power back to the states and away from the federal government authoritarianism?


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Deport 'em to Russia, it's exactly the type of country they claim to want to live in anyway.


This wouldn’t be the first time left-wingers are deporting “wrong-minded” people into the frozen depths of Russia.

I am told trains were very effective.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> This wouldn’t be the first time left-wingers are deporting “wrong-minded” people into the frozen depths of Russia.
> 
> I am told trains were very effective.


The Coexist crowd can't even live up to their own hype. They have to constantly censor, ban and "get rid" of opposing viewpoints and then gaslight everybody saying they aren't the authoritarians.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The Coexist crowd can't even live up to their own hype. They have to constantly censor, ban and "get rid" of opposing viewpoints and then gaslight everybody saying they aren't the authoritarians.


I can understand general dislike of right-wingers since they’re polar opposites - you can find some kind of reasonable-ish justification. That, and they’re not very likeable in general. The dislike of libertarians has always puzzled me since all they really want is to be left alone. I’m sure it has to do with them “not wanting to contribute to society”, or something along those lines. The funny thing is that the proposed solution (in jest, but still) is to take everyone who isn’t like-minded and “getting rid of them”. The joke writes itself.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I can understand general dislike of right-wingers since they’re polar opposites - you can find some kind of reasonable-ish justification. That, and they’re not very likeable in general. The dislike of libertarians has always puzzled me since all they really want is to be left alone. I’m sure it has to do with them “not wanting to contribute to society”, or something along those lines. The funny thing is that the proposed solution (in jest, but still) is to take everyone who isn’t like-minded and “getting rid of them”. The joke writes itself.


The people who call other people authoritarian want to move those same people to another country by force. The irony is not lost on me.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The people who call other people authoritarian want to move those same people to another country by force. The irony is not lost on me.


Packing people on trains and sending them camping is a bit extreme of a solution.

…

A final solution, if you will.

…

I’ll stop before someone invokes Godwin’s Law, I can giggle in my little corner and enjoy the irony of the situation all by myself. :V


----------



## Xzi (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> This wouldn’t be the first time left-wingers are deporting “wrong-minded” people into the frozen depths of Russia.


True, but the difference is I couldn't possibly care less what they do or what happens to them after they get there.  They get to pretend they're living in paradise, the rest of the US gets to make much faster progress without needing to cater to a bunch of voters who have the IQ of Chia pets.   Win-win.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

Xzi said:


> True, but the difference is I couldn't possibly care less what they do or what happens to them after they get there.  They get to pretend they're living in paradise, the rest of the US gets to make much faster progress without needing to cater to a bunch of voters who have the IQ of Chia pets.   Win-win.


I will say that I find the American right-wing being enamoured with Russia/siding with Russia in the Ukraine conflict is a little bizarre to say the least, having the Red Scare from just a few decades prior in mind. I suppose it depends on what specific camp you ask. Some just don’t want the government to spend more on a conflict they feel doesn’t concern them, which is justifiable if they have other ideas on how that money/resources could be used domestically. Others actually believe Putin’s in the right and they buy the “anti-Nazism” mission spiel, which is plain stupidity of the highest order - that’s not why Putin wants his grubby hands on Ukraine. Either way, violence or forced relocation aren’t the answer, but the implications of the suggestion are still funny, in that funny-sad way (when nested in historical context).


----------



## Xzi (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I will say that I find the American right-wing being enamoured with Russia/siding with Russia in the Ukraine conflict is a little bizarre to say the least, having the Red Scare in mind from just a few decades prior. I suppose it depends on what specific camp you ask. Some just don’t want the government to spend more on a conflict they feel doesn’t concern them, which is justifiable if they have other ideas on how that money/resources could be used domestically. Others actually believe Putin’s in the right and they totally believe in the “anti-Nazism” mission spiel, which is plain stupidity of the highest order - that’s not why Putin wants his grubby hands on Ukraine. Either way, violence or forced relocation aren’t the answer, but the implications of the suggestion are still funny, in that funny-sad way (when nested in historical context).


I am, of course, being facetious with the suggestion.  At the same time, I'm not sure what else a nation is meant to do with an entire political party which is hellbent on rejecting democracy wholesale.  They're in desperate need of a dose of reality, to see with their own eyes what quasi-religious authoritarian oligarchy does to a country.  Apparently the sorry state the Russian military proved itself to be in hasn't been enough of a demonstration on its own.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I will say that I find the American right-wing being enamoured with Russia/siding with Russia in the Ukraine conflict is a little bizarre to say the least, having the Red Scare from just a few decades prior in mind. I suppose it depends on what specific camp you ask. Some just don’t want the government to spend more on a conflict they feel doesn’t concern them, which is justifiable if they have other ideas on how that money/resources could be used domestically. Others actually believe Putin’s in the right and they buy the “anti-Nazism” mission spiel, which is plain stupidity of the highest order - that’s not why Putin wants his grubby hands on Ukraine. Either way, violence or forced relocation aren’t the answer, but the implications of the suggestion are still funny, in that funny-sad way (when nested in historical context).


I find the American left-wing being enamored with Ukraine is completely bizarre considering 3 short years ago, Democrats labeled Ukraine's Azov Battalion as nazi's. In 2018, they made sure no funds in that omnibus bill were to be made available to Azov. The Christchurch shooter, also a neonazi, claimed to be trained by Azov battalion. 

But now, all of that gets memory holed. Why? And why now? Ukraine has been in civil war since 2014 and nobody cared until Putin went in.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

Xzi said:


> I am, of course, being facetious with the suggestion.  At the same time, I'm not sure what else a nation is meant to do with an entire political party which is hellbent on rejecting democracy wholesale.  They're in desperate need of a dose of reality, to see with their own eyes what quasi-religious authoritarian oligarchy does to a country.  Apparently the sorry state the Russian military proved itself to be in hasn't been enough of a demonstration on its own.


The thing about democracy is that you kind of have to accept the result even when it doesn’t quite work out the way you expected it to - both sides of the aisle have issues with that concept. On the flip side, democracy is tyranny of the stupid, so the republic has certain stopgaps to prevent both from exercising their most base instincts.


TraderPatTX said:


> I find the American left-wing being enamored with Ukraine is completely bizarre considering 3 short years ago, Democrats labeled Ukraine's Azov Battalion as nazi's. In 2018, they made sure no funds in that omnibus bill were to be made available to Azov. The Christchurch shooter, also a neonazi, claimed to be trained by Azov battalion.
> 
> But now, all of that gets memory holed. Why? And why now? Ukraine has been in civil war since 2014 and nobody cared until Putin went in.


Even assuming the absolutely ridiculous scenario of Ukraine being a straight-up national socialist country (it isn’t one) Putin would *still* be in the wrong for attacking a sovereign country unprovoked (with clear intentions of annexation, too). The guilty party is always the initial aggressor, and internal tensions in Ukraine are Ukraine’s problem that the Ukrainian government should deal with. At the end of the day Russia attacked a sovereign democratic country, and not once, but twice. It’s hard to find excuses for them.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> which is justifiable if they have other ideas on how that money/resources could be used domestically.


I have a crazy idea: why not not spend it?

The reason why many right-wingers are siding with Russia or remain neutral is simple. There is part of world which has declared anal sex as the highest value and then there is the rest of the world.


----------



## Lumstar (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I will say that I find the American right-wing being enamoured with Russia/siding with Russia in the Ukraine conflict is a little bizarre to say the least, having the Red Scare from just a few decades prior in mind. I suppose it depends on what specific camp you ask. Some just don’t want the government to spend more on a conflict they feel doesn’t concern them, which is justifiable if they have other ideas on how that money/resources could be used domestically. Others actually believe Putin’s in the right and they buy the “anti-Nazism” mission spiel, which is plain stupidity of the highest order - that’s not why Putin wants his grubby hands on Ukraine. Either way, violence or forced relocation aren’t the answer, but the implications of the suggestion are still funny, in that funny-sad way (when nested in historical context).



It goes full circle I guess. McCarthyism is a large part of how Republicans veered to the right. Today, they think Russia forcibly annexing former USSR territory is no big deal.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> The thing about democracy is that you kind of have to accept the result even when it doesn’t quite work out the way you expected it to - both sides of the aisle have issues with that concept. On the flip side, democracy is tyranny of the stupid, so the republic has certain stopgaps to prevent both from exercising their most base instincts.
> 
> Even assuming the absolutely ridiculous scenario of Ukraine being a straight-up national socialist country (it isn’t one) Putin would *still* be in the wrong for attacking a sovereign country unprovoked (with clear intentions of annexation, too). The guilty party is always the initial aggressor, and internal tensions in Ukraine are Ukraine’s problem that the Ukrainian government should deal with. At the end of the day Russia attacked a sovereign democratic country, and not once, but twice. It’s hard to find excuses for them.


You don't even have to assume. Zelenskyy banned all opposing political parties. He has an entire battalion of SS forces. There is strong evidence of war crimes being committed by Ukrainian forces. These same forces have been bombing the Donbas region for years.

There is more to this conflict than what we are being told and NATO and the US are literally playing with fire against a nuclear armed country.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2022



Lumstar said:


> It goes full circle I guess. McCarthyism is a large part of how Republicans veered to the right. Today, they think Russia forcibly annexing former USSR territory is no big deal.


It's weird how the anti-war left have become very pro-war with their neocon allies in the uniparty. You people are willing to start a nuclear war over a former USSR territory. It's a crazy notion that we spend hundreds of billions of dollars every year protection the borders of other countries and completely ignore our own. Even the money allocated to Border Patrol in this omnibus bill can only be used to process illegal aliens. It can't be used to enforce immigration laws.

Honest question. Why is Ukraine's borders more important than our own?


----------



## JaapDaniels (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You don't even have to assume. Zelenskyy banned all opposing political parties. He has an entire battalion of SS forces. There is strong evidence of war crimes being committed by Ukrainian forces. These same forces have been bombing the Donbas region for years.
> 
> There is more to this conflict than what we are being told and NATO and the US are literally playing with fire against a nuclear armed country.
> 
> ...


If moral is lost wat's the point of any war?
If ukraine falls it means europe falls.
Since europe is tight bound with USA, maybe it matters a bit more then...
More than:

a few drugs couriers.
a few guns.
some people crossing the border that might not do the outmost best to fit in.
There are problems around your borders no mather what, they're the same here, these can in most cases be dealt with just a slight patience.
Ukraine falling, and you've got a dam breach wich gonna set us back about a pre WW1.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

JaapDaniels said:


> If moral is lost wat's the point of any war?
> If ukraine falls it means europe falls.
> Since europe is tight bound with USA, maybe it matters a bit more then...
> More than:
> ...


Ukraine fell in 2014 when the US instigated a color revolution against the lawfully voted president at that time. The corrupt US government have been doing regime changes for decades and the only people who suffer are the citizens of these countries that were at least stable and US taxpayers. The people who benefit are the uniparty here in the US, the military industrial complex and the central bankers.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You don't even have to assume. Zelenskyy banned all opposing political parties. He has an entire battalion of SS forces. There is strong evidence of war crimes being committed by Ukrainian forces. These same forces have been bombing the Donbas region for years.
> 
> There is more to this conflict than what we are being told and NATO and the US are literally playing with fire against a nuclear armed country.


The only answer to this conflict is a unilateral retreat from all annexed territories by Russia, followed by reparations. Nothing short of that is acceptable as far as the non-aggression policy is concerned. Russia is not in a position to “support separatist forces” in a sovereign country, it’s none of Russia’s business and it should be held liable for all the damage and loss of life caused.



TraderPatTX said:


> Ukraine fell in 2014 when the US instigated a color revolution against the lawfully voted president at that time. The corrupt US government have been doing regime changes for decades and the only people who suffer are the citizens of these countries that were at least stable and US taxpayers. The people who benefit are the uniparty here in the US, the military industrial complex and the central bankers.


The U.S. has never invaded Ukraine, Russia has. If the Ukrainian people wanted to overthrow their government, that’s their business.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I can understand general dislike of right-wingers since they’re polar opposites - you can find some kind of reasonable-ish justification. That, and they’re not very likeable in general. The dislike of libertarians has always puzzled me since all they really want is to be left alone. I’m sure it has to do with them “not wanting to contribute to society”, or something along those lines. The funny thing is that the proposed solution (in jest, but still) is to take everyone who isn’t like-minded and “getting rid of them”. The joke writes itself.


This, right here. I have heard at least a half dozen people just here on GBAtemp trying to conflate "Libertarian" with "Republican", which seems funny to me. 

Libertarians LITERALLY want to just be left alone, and to be allowed to ignore YOU, too. 

Part of leaving us alone means that you cannot try to legally force us to call a man a woman, just because he has "preferred pronouns" and a mental disorder. It means that you cannot illegally tax us and send more than $68 billion to a foreign nation which is not a part of the UN, because of their own internecine conflicts. 

Libertarians are not Republicans. But it's funny that we are conflated with them because we, too, refuse to be controlled by the left, so automatically, we're the right. 

You never see any riots started by people demanding actual liberty for ALL people, in ALL things. That's what Libertarians are about. We're not Trump-worshiping Nazis, as the left and several trolls here would have you believe.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> The only answer to this conflict is a unilateral retreat from all annexed territories by Russia, followed by reparations. Nothing short of that is acceptable as far as the non-aggression policy is concerned. Russia is not in a position to “support separatist forces” in a sovereign country, it’s none of Russia’s business and it should be held liable for all the damage and loss of life caused.


That's not diplomacy. And if a country is bombing their own citizens, maybe the world should take an interest. Having a proxy war with a major nuclear power, however, is not a smart idea. Saying that your solution is the only answer is short sighted and you are too smart for that. Remove your emotions from the situation and take another look at it. Look at all the evidence, not just evidence you agree with.


Foxi4 said:


> The U.S. has never invaded Ukraine, Russia has. If the Ukrainian people wanted to overthrow their government, that’s their business.


The U.S. doesn't have to invade countries except to feed the military industrial complex. The CIA ousts world leaders all the time who refuse to play ball with the central bankers.

If the CIA was disbanded like JFK was gonna do before his assassination, there would be 95% less wars in the world. It would save billions of people. Instead of looking at root causes for events, people get distracted by shiny propaganda from the tax exempt corporate media who push whatever the uniparty wants at any given time.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> That's not diplomacy.


Expecting the invading force to retreat from your territory is peak diplomacy. Violent land grabs under the pretense of “protecting the population” is not. Russia needs to retreat from the territories it has no legal claim for.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> Expecting the invading force to retest from your territory is peak diplomacy. Violent land grabs under the pretense of “protecting the population” is not. Russia needs to retreat from the territories it has no legal claim for.


By the same rationale, the United States should surrender the sovereign kingdom nation of Hawai'i. We kind of totally illegally annexed that entire nation. Which is to say nothing of the Indian Removal Act, the Trail of Tears and Manifest Destiny. 

But we got $68 billion to give Ukraine! 

I understand why the rest of the world laughs at us.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> You never see any riots started by people demanding actual liberty for ALL people, in ALL things. That's what Libertarians are about. We're not Trump-worshiping Nazis, as the left and several trolls here would have you believe.


I like Trump because all the right people hate him. From the Democrats to most of the Republican Party (federal and state) like Mitch McConnell, Mitt Romney, and all the other Republicans who voted for this massive $1.7 trillion monstrosity, the Georgia and Arizona GOP, to the FBI, CIA, European leaders, Paul Ryan, the unelected bureaucrats, rich Hollywood types, the dying corporate media, college academia, corporate boardrooms, tech giants, Big Pharma, public sector unions, private sector union leadership, the WEF, and groomers.

I apologize if I missed anybody.

People who love Trump include over 74 million Americans, untold number of people globally and the U.S. military. I think I'm in good company.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2022



Foxi4 said:


> Expecting the invading force to retreat from your territory is peak diplomacy. Violent land grabs under the pretense of “protecting the population” is not. Russia needs to retreat from the territories it has no legal claim for.


Expecting the invading force to retreat is not diplomacy. That's called war.

I wonder if people will have this same zeal for war when China moves into Taiwan. Hmm...


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I like Trump because all the right people hate him. From the Democrats to most of the Republican Party (federal and state) like Mitch McConnell, Mitt Romney, and all the other Republicans who voted for this massive $1.7 trillion monstrosity, the Georgia and Arizona GOP, to the FBI, CIA, European leaders, Paul Ryan, the unelected bureaucrats, rich Hollywood types, the dying corporate media, college academia, corporate boardrooms, tech giants, Big Pharma, public sector unions, private sector union leadership, the WEF, and groomers.
> 
> I apologize if I missed anybody.
> 
> ...


I am a Libertarian who supports Trump for those EXACT reasons, brother. The right people hate what I support.

I am not just a Libertarian. I am a South Park Libertarian, which, joyfully, is an actual thing.

Matt and Trey went on record explaining their political views. They said, to paraphrase from memory, that they hated both conservatives and liberals, but they hated liberals more.

THAT is a political ideology that I can get behind. Leave everyone alone. EVERYONE. If they're not fucking you, stay out of their bedroom and what they do in it. If you did not impregnate them, don't try to stop them from getting an abortion. If they're not your ally, don't feel bad if you nope the fuck out of their own conflict over their territory. Just because YOU imagine that you are a girl, even though you were born with a penis, doesn't mean I HAVE to call you "ma'am", or be forced to by law. 

Liberty for all people means liberty for ALL people.

It doesn't mean that liberals get to use their SJW crazed ideology to browbeat, cancel, cudgel and bash everyone who doesn't agree with them.

EVERYONE can go fuck off and leave everyone else alone. Why haven't we tried this yet?

Oh, that's right. The left refuses to let anyone do ANYTHING that they don't agree with. Not enough representation.

Their utopian world features an entire planet filled with gender-fluid non-binary morbidly obese "individuals" who all get "I Participated" trophies, no one ever gets their feelings hurt, everyone has a safe space, and the world is just a fluffy cotton ball that is rainbow colored.

Please. Fuck ALL the way off with that bullshit. The only Nazis are on the left. The ONLY NAZIS ARE ON THE LEFT, WHERE THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN. IT'S IN THE FUCKING NAME. THE LEFT ARE SOCIALISTS. WHAT DOES "NAZI" MEAN?!

Fucking morons.

Being fat is not beautiful or healthy. There are only two genders. FUCK Ukraine. No, I won't wear a mask. No, I won't get a vaccine. "Diversity" does not equate to "competency". NO LIVES MATTER. Epstein didn't kill himself.

Thanos was right.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> I am not just a Libertarian. I am a South Park Libertarian, which, joyfully, is an actual thing.


Libertarianism is already a fantasy land ideology but having one come outright and say they get their opinions from fiction is even funnier. I quit reading here because I'm sure the rest of the post is posturing from an insecure guy who thinks fiction can give you good opinions for reality.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Libertarianism is already a fantasy land ideology but having one come outright and say they get their opinions from fiction is even funnier. I quit reading here because I'm sure the rest of the post is posturing from an insecure guy who thinks fiction can give you good opinions for reality.


You have been commanded, repeatedly, NOT to speak to me, sir. 

I have you blocked. I only saw this because you tagged me. 

Stop speaking to me. Stop tagging me. Stop mentioning my name. 

NO MEANS NO! I SAID NO! ACCEPT NO FOR AN ANSWER AND STOP FORCING YOURSELF ON ME!


----------



## JaapDaniels (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> I am a Libertarian who supports Trump for those EXACT reasons, brother. The right people hate what I support.
> 
> I am not just a Libertarian. I am a South Park Libertarian, which, joyfully, is an actual thing.
> 
> ...


You poor f*ck.


----------



## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> You have been commanded, repeatedly, NOT to speak to me, sir.
> 
> I have you blocked. I only saw this because you tagged me.
> 
> ...


tagged


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> tagged


You're missing the point. Me and this man go way back. He has a hate boner for me which is still rigid after all this time. Stalks me on every post I comment on. He has a crush on me, I think. I would be flattered, but I like women.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> I am a Libertarian who supports Trump for those EXACT reasons, brother. The right people hate what I support.


I consider myself a classical liberal in the vein of the Founders like Benjamin Franklin and James Madison.


CraddaPoosta said:


> I am not just a Libertarian. I am a South Park Libertarian, which, joyfully, is an actual thing.
> 
> Matt and Trey went on record explaining their political views. They said, to paraphrase from memory, that they hated both conservatives and liberals, but they hated liberals more.
> 
> ...


It is our responsibility as citizens to protect people's life, liberty and their ability to pursue happiness. Even more so for those who cannot defend themselves.


CraddaPoosta said:


> It doesn't mean that liberals get to use their SJW crazed ideology to browbeat, cancel, cudgel and bash everyone who doesn't agree with them.
> 
> EVERYONE can go fuck off and leave everyone else alone. Why haven't we tried this yet?
> 
> ...


It's ironic that the people who call others fascist are perfectly ok with the FBI infringing on American's 1st Amendment rights.


CraddaPoosta said:


> Being fat is not beautiful or healthy. There are only two genders. FUCK Ukraine. No, I won't wear a mask. No, I won't get a vaccine. "Diversity" does not equate to "competency". NO LIVES MATTER. Epstein didn't kill himself.


Beautiful is a relative term. Ain't nothing wrong with a woman being a little thicc.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Beautiful is a relative term. Ain't nothing wrong with a woman being a little thicc.


True. But the left is actively working towards "body acceptance" and ending "fat shaming". 

I do not see it as a bad thing whatsoever for society to react to gluttons the way that many cultures do. What is the obesity rate in Japan, for example? Compare that to America. 

Why is that? It isn't just because of their diet and lifestyle. It's because it is publicly shameful to be grossly overweight in Japan, and I 100% fully agree with that mentality. 

I see shame as a WONDEFUL deterrent against shameful or despicable behavior, and I consider gluttony to be both. We could learn a lot from Japan.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> True. But the left is actively working towards "body acceptance" and ending "fat shaming".
> 
> I do not see it as a bad thing whatsoever for society to react to gluttons the way that many cultures do. What is the obesity rate in Japan, for example? Compare that to America.
> 
> ...


Japan lacks diversity and I have it on good authority that diversity is a strength. We probably shouldn't look to Japan for any wisdom for that reason.


----------



## Nothereed (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> You have been commanded, repeatedly, NOT to speak to me, sir.
> 
> I have you blocked. I only saw this because you tagged me.
> 
> ...


They only quoted you.  So you blocked them, but can't bother to continue to ignore them? That's a you problem.
That's as if I went On Leauge of legends, muted a player, and then unmuted them just to complain about them trying to talk to me. Like bruh you have tools to ignore what they say, and you actively defeat the purpose of using them.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Japan lacks diversity and I have it on good authority that diversity is a strength. We probably shouldn't look to Japan for any wisdom for that reason.


I see what you did there.

Diversity, by itself, doesn't add anything when it comes to competence or capability or ability. I mean, if we're all the same, no matter what race or gender or religion you are, then isn't diversity moot in the first place? Aren't we already one homogenous hodgepodge of self-entitlement and superiority, as 'Murikkkans?

Since we're both playing Devil's Advocate here, it's pleasant to know at least SOMEONE else out there sees through the bullshit and inconsistencies.



Nothereed said:


> They only quoted you.  So you blocked them, but can't bother to continue to ignore them? That's a you problem.
> That's as if I went On Leauge of legends, muted a player, and then unmuted them just to complain about them trying to talk to me. Like bruh you have tools to ignore what they say, and you actively defeat the purpose of using them.


This man has REPEATEDLY been asked and then commanded to not speak to me. The same person gets the fuse lit on his manpon when you refuse to obey HIS desire to be recognized as his lie. I am once again using YOUR words, leftist.
What part of NO! do you not comprehend? Do you want people to respect it when you tell them NO?

But here you are, defending a man who refuses to do the same. Why? Why can't you respect my negation of consent? I SAID NO!

Where's your #MeToo bullshit now? He keeps forcing himself on me. And you are trying to be an enabler.

There's the left for ya.

This is why the US is so divided. One side wants to call ALL the shots and force everyone else to do everything that THEY refuse to do. It's the hypocrisy, more than anything else. 

Which is why I am a SOUTH PARK LIBERTARIAN. The comedy comes from YOU. Still a Libertarian, but one who enjoys laughing hysterically at both sides and making fun of all of it, all along the way, because it's all a fucking joke. 

I'd much rather laugh at life than cry because of it. I'd rather laugh than be offended or angry. 

Get over yourselves. All of you.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Expecting the invading force to retreat is not diplomacy. That's called war.


Retreating when called upon is diplomacy. Retreating once your forces are beaten within an inch of their lives is (losing) a war. Russia is an uninvited aggressor and they should be fought relentlessly until they retreat or perish, that’s the only fair resolution. Their war machine is significantly larger, which makes that scenario unlikely, but I’m willing to bet Ukrainians are more than willing to die testing that theory 

As for everybody else, this isn’t a thread about  @LainaGabranth and what their gender is, so you ought to cut it out right about now. There won’t be any further warnings in this regard.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> Retreating when called upon is diplomacy. Retreating once your forces are beaten within an inch of their lives is (losing) a war. Russia is an uninvited aggressor and they should be fought relentlessly until they retreat or perish, that’s the only fair resolution. Their war machine is significantly larger, which makes that scenario unlikely, but I’m willing to bet Ukrainians are more than willing to die testing that theory
> 
> As for everybody else, this isn’t a thread about  @LainaGabranth and what their gender is, so you ought to cut it out right about now. There won’t be any further warnings in this regard.


The topic IS about the division in America, and the "transgender" social justice war is a major component of that.

Pointing out specific examples of people belonging to that "community" being less-than-friendly, stalking people, trolling them, inentionally trying to bait them and all of the other wonderful things that SOME of these folks do is 100% on-topic.

The other day, CommanderCool was calling people retards and directly, openly flaming anyone who didn't agree with him. He didn't get a warning. He got a "topic cleanup". I wonder why you made that decision? Pretty sure calling someone a RETARD is absolutely against the ToS. 

We are divided because SOME folks on the left refuse to obey the same rules they want to enforce on others.

Discuss.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> The topic IS about the division in America, and the "transgender" social justice war is a major component of that.
> 
> Pointing out specific examples of people belonging to that "community" being less-than-friendly, stalking people, trolling them, inentionally trying to bait them and all of the other wonderful things that SOME of these folks do is 100% on-topic.
> 
> ...


CommanderCool spent a week in the corner for his bad behavior previously.


----------



## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> CommanderCool spent a week in the corner for his bad behavior previously.


I got two weeks for my first offense. 

Again. Make it make sense. 
And you were on that topic. The only thing I said was "Rainbow Nazi Party" in reference to the left. But, you can see on THIS VERY TOPIC how many conservatives have been openly called Nazis, or accused of association with the Nazi party, and... nothing. 

So, it's perfectly fine to call anyone on the right a Nazi. But do the EXACT SAME THING in return, and BOOM! Cancelled. 

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't make sense. 

There are some good and decent moderators here. That's a good place to leave it. Read every word carefully. End with a positive statement.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> Retreating when called upon is diplomacy. Retreating once your forces are beaten within an inch of their lives is (losing) a war. Russia is an uninvited aggressor and they should be fought relentlessly until they retreat or perish, that’s the only fair resolution. Their war machine is significantly larger, which makes that scenario unlikely, but I’m willing to bet Ukrainians are more than willing to die testing that theory


It'll be interesting to see Ukraine beat a bigger, stronger country with enough nukes to make every square mile of Ukraine the same as Chernobyl. Nobody seems interested to sit down and talk, except for Putin. There's nothing wrong with at least trying to sit down and talk. Why is everybody completely against this?

Did Zelenskyy ever apologize for shooting missiles into your country and killing Polish citizens, because he just did the same to Belarus.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2022



CraddaPoosta said:


> I got two weeks for my first offense.
> 
> Again. Make it make sense.
> And you were on that topic. The only thing I said was "Rainbow Nazi Party" in reference to the left. But, you can see on THIS VERY TOPIC how many conservatives have been openly called Nazis, or accused of association with the Nazi party, and... nothing.
> ...


This entire thread is meant to focus on our differences to cause arguments and hopefully get people banned from the forums. Maybe I should start a new thread highlighting the things we actually agree on.

The very least, it would be a more interesting topic than focusing on our differences and further dividing us.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> You have been commanded, repeatedly, NOT to speak to me, sir.
> 
> I have you blocked. I only saw this because you tagged me.
> 
> ...


OH GOD I FORGOT WHO YOU WERE LOL

ARE YOU THAT NARUTO AVI WHO GOT MAD AT ME LMFAOOOOO
i literally do not even fucking remember you i just see some new name rambling off about being a pedotarian

	Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2022



Foxi4 said:


> Retreating when called upon is diplomacy. Retreating once your forces are beaten within an inch of their lives is (losing) a war. Russia is an uninvited aggressor and they should be fought relentlessly until they retreat or perish, that’s the only fair resolution. Their war machine is significantly larger, which makes that scenario unlikely, but I’m willing to bet Ukrainians are more than willing to die testing that theory
> 
> As for everybody else, this isn’t a thread about  @LainaGabranth and what their gender is, so you ought to cut it out right about now. There won’t be any further warnings in this regard.


why would you stop the seething, it's fucking hilarious
please don't white knight for me thank you


----------



## mrmagicm (Dec 29, 2022)

USA is becoming WEAK because of division, everybody in the world noticed that.......That's all FOLKS!! **

This is due from the LEFT wing of your parties trying to improve the wishs of minorities at all cost making woke decisions...If they make some more individually happier, they globally makes you weaker. Soon, immigration, BLM, LGBT, other minorities who want to have their voice listened will reduce the power of your own country and will complain at the end because the cake becomes "smaller", they have already done it to Europe.


----------



## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

mrmagicm said:


> USA is becoming WEAK because of division, everybody in the world noticed that.......That's all FOLKS!! **
> 
> This is due from the LEFT wing of your parties trying to improve the wishs of minorities at all cost making woke decisions...If they make some more individually happier, they globally makes you weaker. Soon, immigration, BLM, LGBT, other minorities who want to have their voice listened will reduce the power of your own country and will complain at the end because the cake becomes "smaller", they have already done it to Europe.


bro wants to take away rights from black people


----------



## smf (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> This is why the US is so divided. One side wants to call ALL the shots and force everyone else to do everything that THEY refuse to do.


This argument can be used against "both sides".

The right just is better at throwing tantrums



mrmagicm said:


> Soon, immigration, BLM, LGBT, other minorities who want to have their voice listened will reduce the power of your own country and will complain at the end because the cake becomes "smaller", they have already done it to Europe.



Yes, it happened in Europe after we defeated the Nazi's.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> bro wants to take away rights from black people


All U.S. citizens already have equal rights.


----------



## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> All U.S. citizens already have equal rights.


didnt ask


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

smf said:


> This argument can be used against "both sides".
> 
> The right just is better at throwing tantrums


The left has a long history covering decades of throwing tantrums. From spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam, bombing the Capitol, almost tearing down the doors to the Supreme Court, gluing their hands to whatever is around, sitting in the middle of the road, burning down buildings, attacking law enforcement, trying to cancel Goya and Joe Rogan, creating the KKK, assassinating presidents and the desire for little kids to see grown men simulate sex on a stage.

I could go on, but you get the picture.


----------



## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The left has a long history covering decades of throwing tantrums. From spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam, bombing the Capitol, almost tearing down the doors to the Supreme Court, gluing their hands to whatever is around, sitting in the middle of the road, burning down buildings, attacking law enforcement, trying to cancel Goya and Joe Rogan, creating the KKK, assassinating presidents and the desire for little kids to see grown men simulate sex on a stage.
> 
> I could go on, but you get the picture.


How many coups has the left tried, again? Zero? And how many coups has the right tried? Huh... 

Oh and if you're going to make all those claims, you gotta include sources. Facts don't care about your feelings and all that.


----------



## mrmagicm (Dec 29, 2022)

Ack: You just can't argue with the result....The state has never been more dangerously divided, and everyone thinks it's the truth. I think right wing (always the conservative) in many countries are becoming fed up of the left wing using social media complaining about egality all the time, as you get the egality you deserve in all country with your work, not by force..
As usual, you take the skull icon or other words and brandish it like a sword , and blind yourself the real reason of this fact.


----------



## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> I see what you did there.
> 
> Diversity, by itself, doesn't add anything when it comes to competence or capability or ability. I mean, if we're all the same, no matter what race or gender or religion you are, then isn't diversity moot in the first place? Aren't we already one homogenous hodgepodge of self-entitlement and superiority, as 'Murikkkans?
> 
> ...


that's not very libertarian of you man, you need to respect his first amendment right to tag you. If it bothers you, then it's your responsibility to fix it.

_What is the libertarian view on verbal harassment? What rights does it violate, if any?_ (n.d.). Quora. https://qr.ae/prneR7


	Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2022



mrmagicm said:


> Ack: You just can't argue with the result....The state has never been more dangerously divided, and everyone thinks it's the truth. I think right wing (always the conservative) in many countries are becoming fed up of the left wing using social media complaining about egality all the time, as you get the egality you deserve in all country with your work, not by force.
> Same thing from you...As usual, you take the skull icon or other words and brandish it like a sword , and blind yourself the real reason of this fact.


cite a source man


----------



## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> How many coups has the left tried, again? Zero? And how many coups has the right tried? Huh...


Maybe not a coup, but the left tried to secede from the Union and started the Civil War.


ack said:


> Oh and if you're going to make all those claims, you gotta include sources. Facts don't care about your feelings and all that.


Too bad you aren't curious enough to search for yourself. I gave you plenty of terms to Google. Now run off and learn something.


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## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Maybe not a coup, but the left tried to secede from the Union and started the Civil War.
> 
> Too bad you aren't curious enough to search for yourself. I gave you plenty of terms to Google. Now run off and learn something.


that's not how it works buddy. If YOU are going to make a claim in an argument, it is YOUR responsibility to back up that claim with evidence and reasoning.


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## JaapDaniels (Dec 29, 2022)

Since i'm dutch living in the netherlands, i might be completely wrong about the USA...
but when i was you i had 4 news channels:

The news papers: relaiable to a certain point, you knew they already took a stance before reports.
TV: most peale had just regular analogue antenna so only state approved news.
Radio: total chaos, you went up a KHz and they told you the excact opposite story.
The street: mostly for, the new illigal hardware/software mods.
Today it's a mess:

we've got the web: HTTPS, known name... but its just gossip, there's no source, half the stories are pulled back later...
If it's the same in the USA as here, i do understand the differences, for we all get fed up with not hearing whole stories, there is no factchecking possible without a source, and i do understand you don't trust your government to be trustworthy.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> that's not very libertarian of you man, you need to respect his first amendment right to tag you. If it bothers you, then it's your responsibility to fix it.
> 
> _What is the libertarian view on verbal harassment? What rights does it violate, if any?_ (n.d.). Quora. https://qr.ae/prneR7
> 
> ...


Just because you have liberty doesn't mean that there are not consequences to your actions if they are willfully harmful to another person. You HAVE the liberty to get drunk. You even have the liberty, technically, to go driving when you are beyond the legal limit. But, if you do, you have already accepted that if your actions cause potential harm to others, there will be consequences for them.

You're trying to compare libertarianism to anarchy. We still have rules. We're just not going to repeatedly force them down your throat, until you harm someone else.

You are also COMPLETELY missing my sardonicism. I am not the kind of guy who screams "NO! NO! I SAID NO!" when someone does something I don't like. I was being patently, obviously, annoyingly facetious when I was doing that. DId that escape you? It went over your head, didn't it? It did.

I'll spell it out for you. I was openly making a gross parody of exactly what the left does when someone says something they don't like. It's the Karen at the airport screaming "RAPE!" when the cop goes to arrest her for causing a scene.

Are we up to speed now, chum? We good?


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> that's not how it works buddy. If YOU are going to make a claim in an argument, it is YOUR responsibility to back up that claim with evidence and reasoning.


This should get you started.

https://www.amren.com/news/2021/01/...83-bill-clinton-let-them-out-of-prison-early/

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-terrorist-rosenberg/


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## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> This should get you started.
> 
> https://www.amren.com/news/2021/01/...83-bill-clinton-let-them-out-of-prison-early/
> 
> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/blm-terrorist-rosenberg/






Do you _really_ want these guys to be backing up your claims? Just sayin


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> View attachment 344968
> Do you _really_ want these guys to be backing up your claims? Just sayin


Oh, a far left media outlet who is losing subscribers and readership is calling another publication alt-right. Why should I trust what they say when nobody else is trusting what they say?

What exactly are you disputing here? That the Senate building was bombed? That is was bombed by far leftist terrorists? That it happened in 1983? Point out something in the story that is not true. I don't care if you like the source or not. You said something about facts and feelings earlier. I think it applies here.


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## ack (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Oh, a far left media outlet who is losing subscribers and readership is calling another publication alt-right. Why should I trust what they say when nobody else is trusting what they say?
> 
> What exactly are you disputing here? That the Senate building was bombed? That is was bombed by far leftist terrorists? That it happened in 1983? Point out something in the story that is not true. I don't care if you like the source or not. You said something about facts and feelings earlier. I think it applies here.


I'm saying that the source does not seem reliable. Oh and it isnt just one source, if you look at the screenshot you can see that it cites 5 sources just for the claim that it is white supremacist.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> I'm saying that the source does not seem reliable. Oh and it isnt just one source, if you look at the screenshot you can see that it cites 5 sources just for the claim that it is white supremacist.


Facts matter more than sources. 

Evil men have told the truth. The truth is the truth, no matter where it comes from. 

There might be a different spin put on it, depending on who is relating said truth, and there may be an agenda behind it, but a fact is a fact is a fact. This is why it's important to research things from as many sides as possible, always. 

The truth is the nugget left behind after you wash off all the bullshit.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> It'll be interesting to see Ukraine beat a bigger, stronger country with enough nukes to make every square mile of Ukraine the same as Chernobyl. Nobody seems interested to sit down and talk, except for Putin. There's nothing wrong with at least trying to sit down and talk. Why is everybody completely against this?
> 
> Did Zelenskyy ever apologize for shooting missiles into your country and killing Polish citizens, because he just did the same to Belarus.


There’s nothing to talk about. As for the missiles, they were shot down debris. Ukraine maintains they were Russian, but our investigation in Poland says otherwise. The matter is complicated as the two sides use the same hardware to a large extent. Time will tell how it shakes up - it was clearly an accident either way.





LainaGabranth said:


> why would you stop the seething, it's fucking hilarious
> please don't white knight for me thank you


We have community standards, and they’re binding for all users, including yourself. If you’re inviting the flaming, you’re welcome to take it to your profile where it won’t derail the discussion.



CraddaPoosta said:


> The topic IS about the division in America, and the "transgender" social justice war is a major component of that.
> 
> Pointing out specific examples of people belonging to that "community" being less-than-friendly, stalking people, trolling them, inentionally trying to bait them and all of the other wonderful things that SOME of these folks do is 100% on-topic.
> 
> ...


You don’t actually know what was and was not discussed with that user since moderation isn’t public. It’s also final and not up to debate.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> I'm saying that the source does not seem reliable. Oh and it isnt just one source, if you look at the screenshot you can see that it cites 5 sources just for the claim that it is white supremacist.


Point out something from the source that is wrong or just move on. I'm not gonna sit here and argue over mUh SoUrCeS with you.

I'm not required to use your preferred sources. I just clicked on the first link that popped up and scanned the story to make sure it was factual to what I remembered.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> The U.S. has never invaded Ukraine, Russia has. If the Ukrainian people wanted to overthrow their government, that’s their business.


So if the American people wanted to overthrow theirs, see Jan6, it would be ok for Russia to financially and logicstically support that, right?


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> There’s nothing to talk about. As for the missiles, they were shot down debris. Ukraine maintains they were Russian, but our investigation in Poland says otherwise. The matter is complicated as the two sides use the same hardware to a large extent. Time will tell how it shakes up - it was clearly an accident either way.


If it was truly an accident, then there should have been an apology. 

It looks like these people are trying to start World War III instead of sitting down and talking.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> So if the American people wanted to overthrow theirs, see Jan6, it would be ok for Russia to financially and logicstically support that, right?


History is written by the victors, is it not? That’s of course assuming the January 6th rioters were actually intending to overthrow the government and weren’t in the throes of a sudden influx of collective stupidity, and the F.B.I. found scant evidence of that being the case.


TraderPatTX said:


> If it was truly an accident, then there should have been an apology.
> 
> It looks like these people are trying to start World War III instead of sitting down and talking.


We know for a fact that it was an accident based on the collected fragments and the trajectory.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

One component to all of this I think a lot of people miss is the fact that most of the western world, America, in particular, has become absolutely desensitized to all of this.

To suffering. To mass shootings. To pandemic outbreaks. To overseas wars. To the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives. To politicians blaming other politicians when we don't respond correctly to a national weather disaster.

A lot of us are just beyond numb, and we don't give a fuck anymore. We're circling the wagons, keeping that circle small and tight, choosing to take care of and protect our own, and trying to block out the rest of the noise.

A lot of us just want to be left alone to do exactly that, while the kids fight it out amongst themselves. As long as no one is bleeding, let 'em fight. That's how I was raised. As long as no one is honestly trying to hurt the other, let the kids scrap, then shake hands and hug it out afterwards.

Just leave the rest of us who don't feel like playing THE FUCK ALONE.

That's what liberty means to me. Cheers.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> History is written by the victors, is it not? That’s of course assuming the January 6th rioters were actually intending to overthrow the government and weren’t in the throes of a sudden influx of collective stupidity, and the F.B.I. found scant evidence of that being the case.


Please answer the question. Would it be ok for Russia to support a revolution in the US?
(And yes, history is written by the victors. Kiev wanted to challange Moscow and might be swallowed by Poland, Hungary and Russia.)


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> One component to all of this I think a lot of people miss is the fact that most of the western world, America, in particular, has become absolutely desensitized to all of this.
> 
> To suffering. To mass shootings. To pandemic outbreaks. To overseas wars. To the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives. To politicians blaming other politicians when we don't respond correctly to a national weather disaster.
> 
> ...


Words typed by someone who got his opinions on politics from a show about children btw

Not that libertarians don't already have amusing views on age of consent laws :^)


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

@Foxi4 , didn't you just warn a specific user not to do what this user just did?

Just bringing it to your attention. It sounded an awful lot like you advised that any personal discussions should be kept off of this topic to keep it decluttered, and because directly flamebaiting is against the ToS. As is making an insinuation that I have relationships with minors. That is a vile and horrible accusation.

Based on context, and being the only person this individual could possibly be directing this toxic, reprehensible statement towards, I feel attacked, personally. I don't believe such a comment is relevant or helpful to this discussion, and that it definitely violates the clearly posted rules of this forum.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Please answer the question. Would it be ok for Russia to support a revolution in the US?
> (And yes, history is written by the victors. Kiev wanted to challange Moscow and might be swallowed by Poland, Hungary and Russia.)


If there actually was one? Sure, why not. I’m pretty sure it would sour international relationships should said uprising lose. For the record, when the United States rebelled against King George, Poles supported the founding fathers. Tadeusz Kościuszko was one of the more famous foreign Revolutionary War generals - he sailed over to the newfound States in 1776 along with a contingent of soldiers and enlisted with the Continental Army as a colonel, he was quickly promoted to Brigadier General. He was originally tasked with fortifying and defending the Delaware river, there’s a statue at Fort Billington commemorating his contributions to the war effort.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Kościuszko

There’s also general Kazimierz Pułaski, who’s considered the “father of American cavalry”. The title alone says it all as far as his contributions are concerned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_Pulaski

The government at the time didn’t take an official stance (on account of more relevant troubles at home), but individual military men spared no expense supporting the revolution against who they perceived to be an unjust king.


CraddaPoosta said:


> I feel attacked, personally.


Maybe you should report it then.

The conversation ends here. You can all act like grown-ups and move along or you can test your luck some more - that would be ill-advised.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 29, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Please answer the question. Would it be ok for Russia to support a revolution in the US?
> (And yes, history is written by the victors. Kiev wanted to challange Moscow and might be swallowed by Poland, Hungary and Russia.)


This doesn't even make sense as an objection. Who cares if Russia supported a coup in the US? It was a coup in the US FIRST. That's more important to worry about.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> If there actually was one? Sure, why not. I’m pretty sure it would sour international relationships should said uprising lose. For the record, when the United States rebelled against King George, Poles supported the founding fathers. Tadeusz Kościuszko was one of the more famous foreign Revolutionary War generals - he sailed over to the newfound States in 1776 along with a contingent of soldiers and enlisted with the Continental Army as a colonel, he was quickly promoted to Brigadier General. He was originally tasked with fortifying and defending the Delaware river, there’s a statue at Fort Billington commemorating his contributions to the war effort.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Kościuszko
> 
> ...


Thank you for the snip. This should be a forum where we can openly exchange ideas without personal attacks.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> I DID report it and contacted a moderator, which is exactly what we are supposed to do. You just got done issuing a warning about this to everyone on the thread, and the behavior continued. I am doing exactly what the rules say.


There was no report at the time of writing my reply. There was one afterwards, and was acted upon. For the record, you can just make a report - you don’t have to announce it to the world that you did.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 29, 2022)

fixed my post


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## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> fixed my post


You will find that it was plenty fixed before you added your two cents.

Can we act like adults now?


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> You will find that it was plenty fixed before you added your two cents.
> 
> Can we act like adults now?


This is one of the reasons I wish that when you blocked someone here, they couldn't see YOUR posts, either. It would solve at least a few problems. 

I like your style, though. At least you treat everyone the same. Good form.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> You will find that it was plenty fixed before you added your two cents.
> 
> Can we act like adults now?


My post was fiiiiiiiine, the guy's said it plenty of times in the past to other members. The instant he gets a joke about his ideology back, he cries wolf. Sad! Won't survive the winter! Low energy!


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## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> This is one of the reasons I wish that when you blocked someone here, they couldn't see YOUR posts, either. It would solve at least a few problems.
> 
> I like your style, though. At least you treat everyone the same. Good form.





LainaGabranth said:


> My post was fiiiiiiiine, the guy's said it plenty of times in the past to other members. The instant he gets a joke about his ideology back, he cries wolf. Sad! Won't survive the winter! Low energy!


I’m gonna institute levels of gender equality like you both ain’t ever seen if you don’t kiss and make up, then I’ll show how good my form is. 

In any case… division in American politics, yes?


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I’m gonna institute levels of gender equality like you both ain’t ever seen if you don’t kiss and make up, then I’ll show how good my form is.
> 
> In any case… division in American politics, yes?


Part and parcel to the conversation, played out in living color. 

When you decide that someone is your enemy, you disregard every single other possible facet or aspect of their character or person. 

This is why there can't be any true lasting peace in America as long as we are a two-party system where each side demonizes the other and associates only the absolutely worst possible features with each opposing side. 

There are good Republicans and Democrats. The extremists, though, are the ones who make the most noise and get the most coverage. Extremism comes in many forms, but all of them have one thing in common. 

Intolerance. 

No one who is that zealously, fanatically devoted to any specific ideology will ever reach across the aisle, or even try to make any compromise. It is the dictionary defiinition of a bigot. 

To hold an idea so firmly that one refuses to even entertain or consider any idea to the contrary. 

There are a lot of people like that, here, today, on this thread. Funnily, many of them are demanding the same tolerance they absolutely refuse to grant to others. 

Which is why I am a Libertarian. "Leave me the fuck alone, and I will leave you the fuck alone". Everyone is happy.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I’m gonna institute levels of gender equality like you both ain’t ever seen if you don’t kiss and make up, then I’ll show how good my form is.
> 
> In any case… division in American politics, yes?


The left thrive on division. Even in my thread about topics we can agree on, they go on there just to push division. They literally cannot help themselves.

In @CraddaPoosta 's defense, when Laina "quotes" you, they always change what you wrote to mean something you did not intend for it to mean. I wish the forum would lock comments so they can't be altered in replies. I don't like blocking people, but changing my words is inexcusable.


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## Foxi4 (Dec 29, 2022)

ack said:


> I'm saying that the source does not seem reliable. Oh and it isnt just one source, if you look at the screenshot you can see that it cites 5 sources just for the claim that it is white supremacist.


Just to resolve this thread of the conversation, Susan Rosenberg was indeed charged in the Washington Bombings case for aiding and abetting multiple bombings between 1983 and 1984, as well as supplying the group with firearms and getaway cars. Us common folk must say that those crimes are alleged, but considering she was arrested *while in possession of explosives* (750lbs of them, I might add) you can draw your own conclusions. Some of those charges were dropped as part of a plea bargain. Her sentence was commuted by Bill Clinton in 2001. The U.S. doesn’t really apply the moniker of domestic terrorist to its citizens, but considering the crimes she was allegedly involved in, the description is apt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Rosenberg


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The left thrive on division. Even in my thread about topics we can agree on, they go on there just to push division. They literally cannot help themselves.
> 
> In @CraddaPoosta 's defense, when Laina "quotes" you, they always change what you wrote to mean something you did not intend for it to mean. I wish the forum would lock comments so they can't be altered in replies. I don't like blocking people, but changing my words is inexcusable.


THIS. ALL DAY. 

Worse, in most places, they know they can get away with saying things that if anyone on the right or the conservative side said, they would IMMEDIATELY be lambasted for, at the least, and cancelled or moderated, suspended or banned, at worst. 

Look at Twitter. Look at how many people are either leaving, or threatening to, tearfully, because their leftist playground is finally getting a hall monitor during recess. 

It's like a fucking chihuahua locked in a hot car with the window barely cracked, yapping until it's frothy. Then, when the cops show up, YOU get arrested for trying to convince it to calm down before it passes out from heat exhaustion. That's what dealing with liberals is like. 

It isn't the point that they are completely powerless, and even if they COULD get through that window, they could only nip you a little bit. It's the hate and the aggression. The sense of self-righteousness. Hiding behind authority when just screaming at the top of their lungs doesn't work. 

And the icing on the cake is how mad they get when you use the same exact tactics on them, by running to tell the teacher. 

Case in point. Quod erat demonstrandum. Cheers.


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## Nothereed (Dec 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> *The left thrive on division. *Even in my thread about topics we can agree on, they go on there just to push division. They literally cannot help themselves


I am going to say what am I going to say. and then I'm going to leave.

If it was true the actual left thrived on "division" why is it:
1. They actively fight for peoples rights (see blacks, see other repressed groups due to laws. Racism didn't magically fade away. It never really has. It just can't be nearly as open)
2.  The only fight they want to have is:
Get rid of the rich.
And punch Nazi's in the face.

And unlike the right. The left is pretty damn well educated on what a Nazi is. It's just really fucking terrible that there's a fascist movement. Which is dividing people. Have a bucket list of that:

1.Anti-muslim rehstoric
2.Anti-trans rhetoric (300 trans bills
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2...posed-306-bills-targeting-trans-people-past-2)
3. Anti-sememtism
4.anti-lgbtq
5.xenophobic (see both Texas and Florida migrant ordeals)
6. Authoritarianly against the choice to have an abortion. (You know, asking Facebook or other companies for people's information so you can arrest them for going to another state to get an abortion is _totally normal and in no shape or form or way genuinely big brotheresk)_
7. Actively wanting a civil war and attempting a coup.
8. constantly announcing the left is the cause all problems despite the fact the actual left isn't in power, ie middle right party has.
9. Actively continuing to support laws that are not democratic, or not wanting to get rid of the electoral collage in place of a (ranked) popular vote.
10. Remember the "war on Christmas"
Yeah I do. They didn't do it this year. But they lost their mind over "happy holidays"
And making bogus stories last year.
11. " culture wars!"
12. Anti union
13. Some are still some how fucking against racial marriage equality
14. Actively slandering the person who stopped the club q shooting. Stopping a shooting should be good, period the end. But apparently not enough for right wingers.
15. Often right wingers  display the Confederate flag, the one in support of slavery. Which is ironic since they claim a party switch didn't happen. Oops.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2022

Oh right...
16. Attacking power sub stations 
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/thre...terial-support-plot-attack-power-grids-united

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/26/physical-attacks-electrical-grid-peak-00075216
Which white supremicist openly said it was their doing. Double oopsie.


I can make the list go on _ much_ further.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 29, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> I am going to say what am I going to say. and then I'm going to leave.


If you are just going to leave, then I'm not going to waste my time reading your comment.

And just like I told PrivatePyle the other day. You don't have to announce you are leaving. People are not going to suddenly care more about you.


Nothereed said:


> If it was true the actual left thrived on "division" why is it:
> 1. They actively fight for peoples rights (see blacks, see other repressed groups due to laws. Racism didn't magically fade away. It never really has. It just can't be nearly as open)
> 2.  The only fight they want to have is:
> Get rid of the rich.
> ...


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## smf (Dec 30, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The left has a long history covering decades of throwing tantrums. From spitting on soldiers returning from Vietnam,


People on your side having a tantrum about things that didn't happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image

	Post automatically merged: Dec 30, 2022



TraderPatTX said:


> Maybe not a coup, but the left tried to secede from the Union and started the Civil War.


The confederates were conservative...


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## Oddx (Dec 30, 2022)

smf said:


> The confederates were conservative...


no sir.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 30, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> I’m gonna institute levels of gender equality like you both ain’t ever seen if you don’t kiss and make up, then I’ll show how good my form is.
> 
> In any case… division in American politics, yes?


Look, if people are gonna be mad at me for anything I say or do, I'm gonna have fun with it >:^) 

America's division is a class thing, through and through. The working class is divided between two schools of thought, the idea that workers own the fruits of their labor, and the idea that the ruling class owns it all because some books and agreements say so. At the end of the day that's all this nonsense is. All of the dressup shit about progressive vs regressive is just a smokescreen for the fact that our division stems 100% objectively from ultrawealthy, dead weight pieces of shit who want society to exclusively favor them and never take away what they're hoarding unethically.


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## Nothereed (Dec 30, 2022)

Oddx said:


> no sir.


https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...war-flying-confederate-flag/story?id=71656456







https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-confederate-idUSKCN24K0I0
Article headline: Trump says Confederate flag proud symbol of U.S. South



Unless you want to tell me waving a flag that represented the side of slavery, in the same breath as a right wing president is not in support of slavery, and it's somehow a happen chance.
Like defending Charlottesville and saying there was good sides on both sides when the rhetoric openly called back to either the nazi's or KKK. I think it was leaning on the nazi's since they had a slogan saying "jews won't replace us" that they chanted.

Oh Right
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ke-says-of-course-trump-voters-are-his-voters
headline
"Former KKK Leader David Duke Says 'Of Course' Trump Voters Are His Voters"

Tl:dr
Yes sir,  The confederates were conservative... If they weren't, why would they still fight racial marriage equality. have both trump (a representive of the Republican party, which is conservative), and the confederate flag(representation of slavery) together.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 30, 2022)

smf said:


> People on your side having a tantrum about things that didn't happen.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image
> 
> Post automatically merged: Dec 30, 2022


I guess I'll just ignore all of the videos I've seen showing leftists spitting on soldiers. Not to mention my dad's friends coming back from Vietnam telling their first hand accounts of being spat on.


smf said:


> The confederates were conservative...


I guess George Wallace was a conservative too, lol. Woodrow Wilson? FDR? Lyndon Johnson? The segregationists that Biden hung out with for decades? Robert Byrd? The Great Party Switch of *insert year here* never happened. It was a media lie. In fact, the political parties didn't even have official colors until the media decided on their own to make Republicans red and Democrats blue. Before, the colors would switch for each election.


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## CommanderCool (Dec 30, 2022)

guys how do i untag threads?


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## Foxi4 (Dec 30, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> guys how do i untag threads?


There should be a “…” icon at the top of the thread - click it, then find the “Unwatch” option. Sadly, you can’t actually “unwatch” what you’ve witnessed, we don’t have the technology for that yet, but it *will* stop the notifications.


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## CommanderCool (Dec 30, 2022)

Foxi4 said:


> There should be a “…” icon at the top of the thread - click it, then find the “Unwatch” option. Sadly, you can’t actually “unwatch” what you’ve witnessed, we don’t have the technology for that yet, but it *will* stop the notifications.
> 
> View attachment 345134


cool thanks.


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## Oddx (Dec 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...war-flying-confederate-flag/story?id=71656456
> View attachment 345036
> View attachment 345037
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-confederate-idUSKCN24K0I0
> ...


politicians are chameleons, throughout time terms like left, right, conservative, liberal, democrat, republican, etc get shifted around, and these extra terms just help muddy the waters by design. You link modern flags with names printed on them as proof. all it proves is someone was clueless of history. 

before responding please go look up which group of people actually recorded votes to/and free the slaves and the complete lack of from the other group, maybe you will be surprised.


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

Oddx said:


> politicians are chameleons, throughout time terms like left, right, conservative, liberal, democrat, republican, etc get shifted around,


left and right don't shift, and the following terms, progressive and conservative don't. A political party, or parties, do however.

Leftism has a root that can be traced. As the same with the right.



Oddx said:


> and these extra terms just help muddy the waters by design.


Eh no. They have meaning. 



Oddx said:


> You link modern flags with names printed on them as proof. all it proves is someone was clueless of history.


Republicans of today live in the south, correct? The rust belt if you would. It's these same Republicans that complain about gay people existing, or trans people existing. Boil it down to what it is, which is fear of difference combined with hate. And their action is to fight change. "No, trans people aren't really people, it's just mental illness" they say. "The gay's a brainwashing our children" They say.

In which way is that kind of rhetoric, any different than the language Dixiecrat used to explain why they should keep slaves, or explain why slaves were just "naturally inferior"

I find it strange that if your going to say that I'm clueless of history. Then your clearly clueless of the connections I'm drawing, the republican party's reasoning for being against choice regarding abortion was "it's states rights problem"
The very same argument slave owners used to try to keep slaves.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> left and right don't shift, and the following terms, progressive and conservative don't. A political party, or parties, do however.
> 
> Leftism has a root that can be traced. As the same with the right.
> 
> ...


No one said "trans people" aren't people. We're saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental illness as classified by the APA, and that the way to deal with this mental disorder is not to mutilate your genitals and convince CHILDREN that they can CHOOSE their gender. There are other ways to deal with this socially constructed mental disorder. 

Please show me on this doll where mean, evil Republicans hurt you.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> No one said "trans people" aren't people. We're saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental illness as classified by the APA, and that the way to deal with this mental disorder is not to mutilate your genitals and convince CHILDREN that they can CHOOSE their gender. There are other ways to deal with this socially constructed mental disorder.
> 
> Please show me on this doll where mean, evil Republicans hurt you.


To be honest every time you talk I'm starting to think libertarianism is the real mental disorder.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> To be honest every time you talk I'm starting to think libertarianism is the real mental disorder.


Sir, stop talking to me.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> Sir, stop talking to me.


I'm not a sir so it doesn't apply to me ;^)


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> No one said "trans people" aren't people. We're saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental illness as classified by the APA, and that the way to deal with this mental disorder is not to mutilate your genitals and convince CHILDREN that they can CHOOSE their gender.


Already you obviously don't understand trans people at all, or listening to medical field you supposedly pull from. gender dysphoria is because of a mismatch. Your brain is telling you something other than what your body is. The only solution we have is to bring the body closer to what the mind is expecting. That can be done through hormones at the appropriate age. And much later on, the person can change their genitals.

Nearly every single person in the medical field recommends gender affirming care if the patient has gender dysphoria. Which is funny that your ignoring.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 31, 2022

For example, people with gender dysphoria have an obscenely high likely hood to commit suicide. Not only does that likely-hood go down by miles with support from family members and gender affirming care, but they become more comfortable with themselves. It could bring back that person, who closed away because of depression stemming from it.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Already you obviously don't understand trans people at all, or listening to medical field you supposedly pull from. gender dysphoria is because of a mismatch. Your brain is telling you something other than what your body is. The only solution we have is to bring the body closer to what the mind is expecting. That can be done through hormones at the appropriate age. And much later on, the person can change their genitals.
> 
> Nearly every single person in the medical field recommends gender affirming care if the patient has gender dysphoria. Which is funny that your ignoring.


You claimed that people on the right do not view "trans people" as people. This is an absolutely false argument. No one sees someone with a mental disorder as being less than human. We just disagree on the treatment process. You support enabling of a mental disorder. We support therapy that does not mutilate the body. 

Please tell me what is evil about this. You CANNOT surgically alter your chromosomes. You cannot turn a penis into a vagina, period. You can't just grow ovaries or testicles. Transition or "gender-affirming surgery" is an absolute farce of medicine, and only produces fake versions of the original. 

You are the party of tolerance, right? Tolerate the fact that many people, MOST people, reject your claims that taking chemicals to be a better fake version of the gender you can never be could possibly be a safe and healthy treatment for the severe mental disorder that is gender dysphoria. 

Leave those kids alone.


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## RetroGen (Dec 31, 2022)

And what if gender dysphoria is very much genuine and (some) libertarians actively use their coercive power to deny these people the liberty to live their lives as they see fit?  That's counter to foundational principles of personal liberty, making the political position self-contradictory and dubiously motivated.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 31, 2022)

RetroGen said:


> And what if gender dysphoria is very much genuine and (some) libertarians actively use their coercive power to deny these people the liberty to live their lives as they see fit?  That's counter to foundational principles of personal liberty, making the political position self-contradictory and dubiously motivated.


"Libertarians" are just Republicans who love weed and hate age of consent laws. That's all. It's an ideology entirely centered around larping like you're unique when you're as basic as it gets.


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> We just disagree on the treatment process. You support enabling of a mental disorder. We support therapy that does not mutilate the body.


So you disagree with the doctors, the physiologists, who all say that gender affirming care works, that it stops them from being nearly as depressed and suicidal.

You'd want to deny pre-teens and teens the right to live. How fucked do you have to be?


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

RetroGen said:


> And what if gender dysphoria is very much real and (some) libertarians actively use their coercive power to deny these people the liberty to live their lives as they see fit?  That's counter to foundational principles of personal liberty, making the political position self-contradictory and dubiously motivated.


That's the entire point, my friend. If they weren't trying to force us to call them 'ma'am' when they have stubble and an Adam's Apple, we'd all be cool. The problem exists when others try to FORCE other people into a specific set of behavior. 
BE the princess you always dreamed of. Wear the biggest fake titties you can find. Rock that dress. Slay, queen! 

Just don't try to DEMAND that I view you as a woman, or call you 'ma'am'. That is how liberty works. You live your life, I live mine, neither of us fucks with the other. 

Why is that so hard for you liberals to do? Why is it IMPOSSIBLE for people who believe in gender fluidity to do? 

Give the same respect and tolerance you are demanding, hypocrites. If you want to be left alone to live your fantasy, then leave the rest of us the fuck alone, and just get on with your business. That's a solution that works for everybody.


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

That's like saying if someone suffers under chronic depression, and suicidal tendencies, that they don't deserve medication because it's a "mental disorder" because you disagree with the treatment method.

It's obtuse and obscene.


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## AncientBoi (Dec 31, 2022)

THIS is what tRUMP's legacy has done to us [.]


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## RetroGen (Dec 31, 2022)

Liberty for me, but not for thee (LGBTQ+).  That is the libertarian view being presented here.  It should be no surprise that such a bigoted view is strongly rejected.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> So you disagree with the doctors, the physiologists, who all say that gender affirming care works, that it stops them from being nearly as depressed and suicidal.
> 
> You'd want to deny pre-teens and teens the right to live. How fucked do you have to be?


Absolutely NOTHING I said comes close to "denying pre-teens and teens" "THE RIGHT TO LIVE".

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA. What a stupid fucking argument built out of thin air. NO ONE SAID THAT.

NO ONE IS DENYING ANYONE "THE RIGHT TO LIVE".

We're just saying that 11-year-old Timmy isn't mentally, emotionally or physically mature enough to decide that he is a girl, and it is because of enablers like YOU that little Timmy wants to chop off his penis and pretend that he is a girl.

We would rather see him in intensive therapy to help him realize that gender is not fluid, that XX and XY exist, and that he doesn't need to harm himself to love himself.

We're the ones trying to save the kids. Not you. Get off that fucking cross. We need the wood.



RetroGen said:


> Liberty for me, but not for thee (LGBTQ+).  That is the libertarian view being presented here.  It should be no surprise that such a bigoted view is strongly rejected.


What part of "you live your life without trying to force behavior on me" sounds like "liberty for me, but not for thee", to you?


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> Why is that so hard for you liberals to do? Why is it IMPOSSIBLE for people who believe in gender fluidity to do?


Why? Because you refuse to treat them with the same respect. If you honestly accidentally "ma'med" a guy, and I mean dick balls, and cis.  You would be curtous enough to say "sorry, I meant to say sir"

But if it's someone else, who looks like a guy, talks like a guy, and refers to them as a guy. But you learned they had a vagina one day, that suddenly you would disregard referring to them as a guy, and go out of your way to say her, purely over that? Then simply put, we don't like you because you refuse to be curtous or respect another human being. So why should we be respectful to you.



CraddaPoosta said:


> NO ONE IS DENYING ANYONE "THE RIGHT TO LIVE".


By denying people hormone therapy, by denying who that person is, you're sending them to die. You are trying to legislate them out of existence. You are denying their right to live.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Why? Because you refuse to treat them with the same respect. If you honestly accidentally "ma'med" a guy, and I mean dick balls, and cis.  You would be curtous enough to say "sorry, I meant to say sir"
> 
> But if it's someone else, who looks like a guy, talks like a guy, and refers to them as a guy. But you learned they had a vagina one day, that suddenly you would disregard referring to them as a guy, and go out of your way to say her, purely over that? Then simply put, we don't like you because you refuse to be curtous or respect another human being. So why should we be respectful to you.


Who said I treated them any differently? Except, of course, when they try to DEMAND that I lie.

I won't do that. Not for any reason. I will NOT lie to a man's face and call him a woman, just because he is suffering from gender dysphoria. It's wrong to expect me to.

Your example is utterly ridiculous. You are comparing accidentally misgendering someone to refusing to play along with someone's fantasy.

It's OKAY for someone to say no to you. You need to learn how to deal with that. You can't force people to do anything, just because of your feelings. If you want the liberty to be whatever you think you are, you HAVE to accept that others have the liberty to just say, "Nope. Not playing. Go have your tea party or whatever, but I am not calling you 'ma'am'."

If you feel that harms you, that's YOUR problem, because if someone refusing to lie to you to support YOUR lie bothers you, YOU are the one with the problem.

One we wish you would find a better solution for than genital mutilation and permanent hormone therapy. There ARE better, safer solutions than being an enabler.

No one is "denying" them hormone "therapy" if that is what they use their liberty for and choose to do. What part of this is not sinking in? 

Go GET your fake titties! Get that offensive penis removed from your "totally female" body! Get all of the PLASTIC SURGERY you want! Rock on witchyo bad self!

Just don't try to force me, demand me, cudgel me, browbeat me, bash me, threaten me or attack me because I noped the fuck out of your little game. 

It's OKAY to be told NO! Isn't that what you have been trying to push for years? NO MEANS NO!

Why can't you take your own advice?


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> One we wish you would find a better solution for than genital mutilation and permanent hormone therapy. There ARE better, safer solutions than being an enabler.


depression is counted as a mental disorder. Autism is counted as a mental disorder. Bioploar is a mental disorder. How do you exactly "enable" a autistic person. An autistic person, is their own person, it's apart of who they are.
No, you're just looking for an excuse to be an ass hat. To justify the hate you have.


CraddaPoosta said:


> Your example is utterly ridiculous. You are comparing accidentally misgendering someone to refusing to play along with someone's fantasy.


How is it a fantasy when they live among you. How. You see, I live with a trans gender person, two of them. One of them identifies as she. Every person has called her a she, not because she requested, but because she looks, and sound the part.
To random strangers, they see her, as her. Only the people she interacted with a lot, does she have to occasionally ask to refer to her as her. And many of them already default to it.
You would be the type to take that she, and put it to a he, if you learned their genitals. And only by that. If you met her as a random stranger, you would go with she. If you learned what she had, you'd go out of your way to go say he.

 That's why I made that example, to show your hypocrisy.

Because we don't identify people by what's in their pants. We use contexts, voice, clothing, body language. Unless your telling me you go check every dude for a cock down there, this shouldn't be disputable.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> depression is counted as a mental disorder. Autism is counted as a mental disorder. Bioploar is a mental disorder. How do you exactly "enable" a autistic person. An autistic person, is their own person, it's apart of who they are.
> No, you're just looking for an excuse to be an ass hat. To justify the hate you have.
> 
> How is it a fantasy when they live among you. How. You see, I live with a trans gender person, two of them. One of them identifies as she. Every person has called her a she, not because she requested, but because she looks, and sound the part.
> ...


The treatment for a cutter is not to give them a knife.

XX. XY. That is who we are. If there is a wire crossed in your brain, or a chemical imbalance in your system that prevents you from feeling this way, there are treatments that do not permanently maim the human body. Any and all of those should be examined first.

And AGAIN, even if it wasn't for medicinal treatment; even if it were just for FUNSIES. If you want to chop off your testicles and pretend to be a woman, FINE! GO FOR IT. FUCKING GO FOR IT!

Just allow me the liberty of refusing to call a person who chopped off his nuts "ma'am".

That's fair. That's as fair as it gets. Live your life, I will live mine. Don't fuck with me, I don't fuck with you.

That is what being a Libertarian is about. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. I just won't try to use the law to force it upon you, because I want you to have the same freedom to tell ME to go fuck myself if I wanted YOU to do something that would intrude upon your own personal liberty.

I can't make it any clearer for you. You can put the cudgel down. I want the same respect that you are demanding.

In your scenario, I would ABSOLUTELY refuse to call that person 'she' after learing that HE is a man. You're absolutely right about that. But that is because I refuse to lie. It's important to me to be honest in all things, and I will NOT play this game with grown adults. I will NOT lie under any circumstance, and calling a man "she" or "her" would be a lie.

Respect my right to say no, or stop demanding preferential treatment.


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> Just allow me the liberty of refusing to call a person who chopped off his nuts "ma'am".
> 
> That's fair. That's as fair as it gets. Live your life, I will live mine. *Don't fuck with me, I don't fuck with you.*


So you want to be that asshole that everyone "should" respect, because he says so?
Because you're choosing to fuck with other people's lives, and then saying people don't have the right to fuck with you.

You know what we call that? If you had power?
We'd call you a tyrant. A unfeeling shit head with blatant disregard for the majority of people or their sentiment. Is that how you want to remembered?

Because your liberty does not go beyond the bounds of another persons liberty, and your absolutely stepping on it as much as you can. Trans people want to just fucking exist. You'd rather see them not.


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## CraddaPoosta (Dec 31, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> So you want to be that asshole that everyone "should" respect, because he says so?
> Because your choosing to fuck with other people's lives, and then saying people don't have the right to fuck with you.
> 
> You know what we call that? If you had power?
> ...


How am I stepping on someone's liberty by refusing to lie, because that is against my moral code and my set of strongly-held virtues?

Tyrants are not the ones saying "Please just leave me alone".

Tyrants are the ones screaming, "IT'S MA'AM!!!" with a bulging Adam's Apple and a penis.

You said, and I quote, "Your liberty does not go beyond the bounds of another person's liberty".

Could NOT agree more. So, you agree that you should respect MY liberty to refuse to be an enabler when I firmly believe that there are better, less harmful treatment methods than surgical mutilation?

I expect for you to abide by that in the future. Don't go back on your word, now. That cudgel works both ways.

NO ONE SAID "TRANS PEOPLE" SHOULD NOT EXIST, EXCEPT FOR THE STRAWMAN YOU HAVE CONSTRUCTED. 

We're saying that "trans people" are NOT special and CANNOT force other people to behave a specific way, based on their feelings. We're asking for the same respect that "trans people" are trying to not only demand, but legally legislate against other people. Why is that so hard for you to process?

Why do you feel the need to keep inventing devils where none exist? You KEEP saying things NO ONE HERE has said. Stick to what is said, kiddo. You're embarrassing yourself. 

You WANT people to hate "trans people" so you feel justified in your moral outrage. None of that has been expressed on this thread. Except for what YOU invented, because if you don't have an enemy to fight, you're just up here White Knighting for people who aren't actually being attacked, especially not in the way you are claiming.


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## Nothereed (Dec 31, 2022)

CraddaPoosta said:


> How am I stepping on someone's liberty by refusing to lie, because that is against my moral code and my set of strongly-held virtues?


So it's apart of your virtues that you have to check every guy for a dick? Is that what your arguing.

Because I have to ask, how do you know that the people you've talked to in day to day life, isn't trans. How would you know.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 31, 2022

I'm asking an impossible question, because what you said is an impossible statement. trans people pass so well that a day to day person wouldn't know. How would of you avoided "lying" to them, if you didn't know what was in their pants. Surely you don't check every stranger down every time you talk to them.


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## LainaGabranth (Dec 31, 2022)

is the naruto guy going on a schizo meltdown again


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## Foxi4 (Dec 31, 2022)

This is the second time this thread turns into a discussion about gender dysphoria. Since you guys can’t have nice things, they’ll be taken away until you simmer down. I’m not cleaning your litter box, you were all told.

Locked.


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