# Developer shows off SNES raytracing through the custom-made SuperRT chip



## SexiestManAlive (Dec 16, 2020)

sweet, cant wait to play mario world with better looking shadows lol


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## Rabbid4240 (Dec 16, 2020)

This is the most amazing yet hilarious thing I've ever see on the snes


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## Silent_Gunner (Dec 16, 2020)

Reminds me of this:


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## Hakaisha (Dec 16, 2020)

Wow. I'd love to see this Super RT chip somehow be implemented into a future Everdrive release and the emulators. It would be a great compliment to the MSU1 audio, fulfilling the technological advancements that may finally fill the void left by the potential of the Nintendo PlayStation.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Dec 16, 2020)

Okay...
but...
Why?

As a POC, this is pretty cool. I just don't know what benefit it would bring to a console that is predominantly 2D games with a handful of 3D titles?


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## elk1007 (Dec 16, 2020)

This is pretty cool!

It reminds me of reverse emulation on the NES.


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## Deleted User (Dec 16, 2020)

cool, raytracing on the n64 when
gotta see that raytraced mario 64 on real hardware man


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## VitaType (Dec 16, 2020)

Chary said:


> This additional cartridge, which was made from the combination of a Super Famicom Pachinko game, a ton of cables, a shifter board, and a Cyclone V FPGA *allows for the Super Nintendo to render* simple objects, shadows, and reflections, in full ray-traced glory, all at a glorious resolution of 200x160.​



Well... No. The rendering, the process of calculating from the 3D description of the scene to a 2D pixel array (a.k.a. the picture) isn't done on the SNES at all. The SNES seems only to be used to output the image and all the rendering is done on the FPGA.


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## Wolfy (Dec 16, 2020)

I'll be honest, this is amazing in so many ways, don't know if it'll be useful for any end-user.

But cool regardless!


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## x65943 (Dec 16, 2020)

I see the CS guys are on christmas break now - time to unload all their goofy projects


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## MohammedQ8 (Dec 16, 2020)

VitaType said:


> Well... No. The rendering, the process of calculating from the 3D description of the scene to a 2D pixel array (a.k.a. the picture) isn't done on the SNES at all. The SNES seems only to be used to output the image and all the rendering is done on the FPGA.


Like 32x which uses megadrive for power only.


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## jt_1258 (Dec 16, 2020)

Memoir said:


> Okay...
> but...
> Why?
> 
> As a POC, this is pretty cool. I just don't know what benefit it would bring to a console that is predominantly 2D games a handful of 3D titles?


what, your telling me you don't want rtx starfox XD


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## Roamin64 (Dec 16, 2020)

So the SNES itself runs at 3.58 Mhz , but this add-on chip runs on 3 cores at 50 Mhz ? ehheeh


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## Kwyjor (Dec 16, 2020)

MohammedQ8 said:


> Like 32x which uses megadrive for power only.


I remember the AVGN's video, where he showed that Primal Rage 32X would still display backgrounds but not sprites if the 32X video cable wasn't hooked up.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 16, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> Reminds me of this:




With all due respect to the creator of that, its not anywhere near as complex as what's going on with the SNES. The Amiga is just playing back prerendered images. That RT chip is doing it in real time.


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## AkiraKurusu (Dec 16, 2020)

Sweet! Now to get this to run on N64!
I can't wait for Stadium to completely kick SwSh's arse!


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## linuxares (Dec 16, 2020)

Memoir said:


> Okay...
> but...
> Why?
> 
> As a POC, this is pretty cool. I just don't know what benefit it would bring to a console that is predominantly 2D games a handful of 3D titles?


It's one of those "Because I can" kind of things. It really have proper real life value except to show it's possible.


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## Osakasan (Dec 16, 2020)

Memoir said:


> Okay...
> but...
> Why?



Why do people ask this question so often?

The only answer to this is... Why not?


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## AkiraKurusu (Dec 16, 2020)

Osakasan said:


> Why do people ask this question so often?
> 
> The only answer to this is... Why not?





Spoiler: Large Image Hider


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## Deleted User (Dec 16, 2020)

It's always heartening to see these kinds of efforts; in the Automotive and Furniture Industries, this is what creates all the nice mix of vintage and new technology offerings, though obviously they have the faster turnaround which makes them good TV Show candidates.

This probably took longer and it'll definitely become a creative toolset for the next Game Creator; I look forward to enjoying its fruits in the future.


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## HeroKing (Dec 16, 2020)

my first thought process for this and seeing the demo video, Ballz 3D. perfect first example to use with this


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## hamohamo (Dec 16, 2020)

goddamn this is crazy cool but you know what would be not only crazy cool but also useful? ps1 raytracing so i can finally play ridge racer type 4 with rt


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## Silent_Gunner (Dec 16, 2020)

HeroKing said:


> my first thought process for this and seeing the demo video, Ballz 3D. perfect first example to use with this



I'd rather play Rise of the Robots than that abortion of a tech demo. At least that game had an awesome OST!


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## Deleted User (Dec 16, 2020)

Ben Carter confirmed by Dylan Cuthbert to be a former Q-Games developer, showing up in the  game-programming credits for Star Fox 64 3DS port.

Old mate and ex-Q-Games programmer and low level tech boffin extraordinaire @CarterBen’s latest experiment is doing the rounds this morning! A ray tracer fpqa chip for the original Super Nintendo ! https://t.co/DOl72l7o99— Dylan and The Tomorrow Children (@dylancuthbert) December 16, 2020


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## Foxi4 (Dec 16, 2020)

Honestly, this looks good enough to pass as pre-rendered footage from the area, which is impressive from a technical standpoint. Gives me the "cringy 3D cutscene from the early '90" vibes.


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## Bladexdsl (Dec 16, 2020)

but can it run crisis?


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## AkiraKurusu (Dec 16, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> but can it run crisis?


What about DOOM 2?


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## raxadian (Dec 16, 2020)

Memoir said:


> Okay...
> but...
> Why?
> 
> As a POC, this is pretty cool. I just don't know what benefit it would bring to a console that is predominantly 2D games a handful of 3D titles?



Sega Genesis envy?

The Sega Genesis could do basic 3D, the Snes could not. Sure there was the chip thing but that cost extra.


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## AlexMCS (Dec 16, 2020)

Ray tracing goes back to the 80s... I don't get why it's all the rage atm...


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## pedro702 (Dec 16, 2020)

this is basicaly useless on snes, first it has only a couple of 3d games, second noone of them support this chip to do the ray tracing.

So unless someone makes an homebrew game that actualy uses this, its basically useless for any snes owner and afaik the snes cpu is pretty crappy so it would be extremely shortcoming 3d game to feature raytracing and run any decent homebrew game.


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## depaul (Dec 16, 2020)

These legendary old consoles... They just don't wanna die.


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## KimKong (Dec 16, 2020)

Wow this is really amazing!


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## smf (Dec 16, 2020)

I'd be impressed if he could ship it at an affordable price and get people writing games for it.
There are plenty of crazy ideas that I could implement that would ultimately lead nowhere.


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## Allen-R (Dec 16, 2020)

This is pretty dope.


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## ClancyDaEnlightened (Dec 16, 2020)

linuxares said:


> It's one of those "Because I can" kind of things. It really have proper real life value except to show it's possible.



Same reason I'm working on a atari 2600 clone, using a 6502, tia, 6532, with 64k of ram, ay-3-8910, and a atmega 644




Memoir said:


> Okay...
> but...
> Why?
> 
> As a POC, this is pretty cool. I just don't know what benefit it would bring to a console



For shit and giggles, because I want to see what the vcs hardware is really capable of as 2600 is its own bottleneck, so rebuild the hardware into a computer, easier said than done, as david crane (iirc) put it, "the vcs hardware (schematic) was designed by a bunch of analog electronics  engineers, not people who understood digital computers"



That's why programming the vcs doesn't make since........and the memory map....and the schematic......


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## slaphappygamer (Dec 16, 2020)

If I can’t have it in 4K UHD 1440p 160FPS with dot to dot matrix capacitors, I won’t touch it. 


.....really though, this is pretty cool. I’ll probably try it.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Dec 16, 2020)

Osakasan said:


> Why do people ask this question so often?
> 
> The only answer to this is... Why not?


...because outside of being a POC, it has no value? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I know some here love the "ooh, shiny" effect. I'm more of the person who asks what it can bring to the scene.


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## Kwyjor (Dec 16, 2020)

raxadian said:


> The Sega Genesis could do basic 3D, the Snes could not. Sure there was the chip thing but that cost extra.


I'm not sure what you mean. If you're thinking of Virtua Racing, then that also required an extra chip.



AlexMCS said:


> Ray tracing goes back to the 80s... I don't get why it's all the rage atm...


Yes, I dabbled a little in POV-Ray back in the 90s.  It's "all the rage atm" because back in the 90s it would take _several minutes_ to render a single frame.


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## WaffleRaccoon (Dec 16, 2020)

When are we getting Raytracing on the Atari?


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## Osakasan (Dec 16, 2020)

Memoir said:


> ...because outside of being a POC, it has no value? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I know some here love the "ooh, shiny" effect. I'm more of the person who asks what it can bring to the scene.



Oh, come the fuck on, you're esentially shitting on the whole demoscene community. It CAN be done, so why not? No one gets hurt.


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## UltraSUPRA (Dec 16, 2020)

Next we're going to have Super Mario 64 running on the SNES.


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## PatrickD85 (Dec 16, 2020)

Cool, but only if they used this in its time ...


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## JJ1013 (Dec 16, 2020)

Super Mario FX conspirators are going to have a ball with this.


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## jeffyTheHomebrewer (Dec 16, 2020)

when a console from 30 years ago can run raytracing better than your main gaming PC:

_*EL BRUH MOMENTO EFECTO DE SONIDO NÚMERO DOS*_

(google translate is a blessing)


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## smf (Dec 16, 2020)

Osakasan said:


> Oh, come the fuck on, you're esentially shitting on the whole demoscene community. It CAN be done, so why not? No one gets hurt.



The demo scene community is more interested in things that don't seem possible. Like real time ray tracing on a superfx for example.

This is way more interesting....





jeffyTheHomebrewer said:


> when a console from 20 years ago can run raytracing better than your main gaming PC:



spoiler: it can't (& snes is 30 years old).


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## AlexMCS (Dec 16, 2020)

Kwyjor said:


> Yes, I dabbled a little in POV-Ray back in the 90s. It's "all the rage atm" because back in the 90s it would take _several minutes_ to render a single frame.



Consider it in context: SNES application. Yes, I know how painfully slow ray tracing is since it's a recursive tree.


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## smf (Dec 16, 2020)

AlexMCS said:


> Consider it in context: SNES application. Yes, I know how painfully slow ray tracing is since it's a recursive tree.



It's not a snes application, the snes is basically being used as a video output. It's using modern hardware that wasn't available in the 90's.


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## AlexMCS (Dec 16, 2020)

smf said:


> It's not a snes application, the snes is basically being used as a video output. It's using modern hardware that wasn't available in the 90's.



I got it, it's a custom chip being ran on SNES. Nevertheless, the SNES is the point of the news.


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## pedro702 (Dec 16, 2020)

AlexMCS said:


> I got it, it's a custom chip being ran on SNES. Nevertheless, the SNES is the point of the news.


nowadays chips are so small and so powerful you could put a phone chip on a cartridge and do everything a modern smartphone chip does on a snes while only outputting to the snes low rez signal to the tv, so imo its not that "revolutionary" nowadays.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 16, 2020)

smf said:


> It's not a snes application, the snes is basically being used as a video output. It's using modern hardware that wasn't available in the 90's.


It's clear you don't understand how SNES enhancement and by extension how NES mapper chips worked.


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## raxadian (Dec 17, 2020)

Kwyjor said:


> 'm not sure what you mean. If you're thinking of Virtua Racing, then that also required an extra chip.



Sonic Flickies Island is basic 3D with no extra chip.


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## Kwyjor (Dec 17, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Sonic Flickies Island is basic 3D with no extra chip.


That game is done entirely with pre-rendered sprites and has nothing to do with "3D".  John Burton did several excellent videos about it.  It's certainly nothing the SNES couldn't do, even without enhancement chips.


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## Moon164 (Dec 17, 2020)

Memoir said:


> Okay...
> but...
> Why?
> 
> As a POC, this is pretty cool. I just don't know what benefit it would bring to a console that is predominantly 2D games with a handful of 3D titles?


Why Not ?


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

Kwyjor said:


> That game is done entirely with pre-rendered sprites and has nothing to do with "3D".  John Burton did several excellent videos about it.  It's certainly nothing the SNES couldn't do, even without enhancement chips.



I find it amazing you would use a GameHut video as an example, when he has two videos on his channel explaining how 3D was achieved on Toy Story. There's also Duke Nukem on the Genesis that was released in Brazil.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

pedro702 said:


> nowadays chips are so small and so powerful you could put a phone chip on a cartridge and do everything a modern smartphone chip does on a snes while only outputting to the snes low rez signal to the tv, so imo its not that "revolutionary" nowadays.


That's not how it works, this isn't one of those cheap knockoff adapters that let you play Genesis games on SNES. Those have you hook up the TV directly to the cartridge, this RT chip is doing the heavy calculation and converting it to an SNES compatible image format. The SNES still has to apply the color palette to that image, sound, controls, programming etc.


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## raxadian (Dec 17, 2020)

Kwyjor said:


> That game is done entirely with pre-rendered sprites and has nothing to do with "3D".



Is what it was called 3D back then, is not like Duke Nuken 3D was "real" 3D anyway.

But the Sega Genesis could actually render
3D polygons even without any special chips, like with Hard Drivin' and Star Cruising while the Super Nintendo could not.

The reason this was not used more was because A) Most of the games were still in 2D and B) It was barely enough so I didn't look that great.


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## Kwyjor (Dec 17, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> I find it amazing you would use a GameHut video as an example, when he has two videos on his channel explaining how 3D was achieved on Toy Story.


I don't know what you're trying to say? M. Radaxian said "the Sega Genesis could do basic 3D, the Snes could not".  My point, as demonstrated by the video, is that Sonic 3D Blast only uses graphics tricks that could be done just as easily on the SNES.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

Kwyjor said:


> I don't know what you're trying to say? M. Radaxian said "the Sega Genesis could do basic 3D, the Snes could not".  My point, as demonstrated by the video, is that Sonic 3D Blast only uses graphics tricks that could be done just as easily on the SNES.


The Genesis can do basic 3D, GameHut has videos showing it. Doom/Wolfenstein 3D style. Duke was done with no enhancement chips. The SNES needed the SFX chip for its Doom port.


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## Kwyjor (Dec 17, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> The Genesis can do basic 3D, GameHut has videos showing it. Doom/Wolfenstein 3D style. Duke was done with no enhancement chips. The SNES needed the SFX chip for its Doom port.


Yes, fine, the Genesis can do basic 3D, but what makes you think the SNES can't do the same "basic 3D"? The SNES even had its own port of Toy Story!

Yes, the SNES needed the SFX chip for its Doom port – and the Genesis needed the 32X for its Doom port.  No special chips were needed for Wolfenstein on the SNES.  Or Faceball 2000, for that matter. 

Lawnmower Man also springs to mind, but I'm sure there are much better examples than that.




raxadian said:


> But the Sega Genesis could actually render
> 3D polygons even without any special chips, like with Hard Drivin' and Star Cruising while the Super Nintendo could not.


In the end, a "3D polygon" is just a triangle, and there's no need for special hardware to draw a triangle. (Lots of triangles very quickly is a different matter.)


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

Kwyjor said:


> Yes, fine, the Genesis can do basic 3D, but what makes you think the SNES can't do the same "basic 3D"? The SNES even had its own port of Toy Story!
> 
> Yes, the SNES needed the SFX chip for its Doom port – and the Genesis needed the 32X for its Doom port.  No special chips were needed for Wolfenstein on the SNES.  Or Faceball 2000, for that matter.
> 
> ...



That's where you are wrong in thinking these systems are using any sort of 3D polygons or that 3D is just a triangle. Quad 3D was a thing before Tri's became the standard. These classic consoles are using deformed sprites to achieve 3D. The Genesis needed less assistance achieving that type of 3D because it was nearly twice as fast as the SNES CPU. Very little examples exist but the best known demo is the Star Fox type one. What is the RT chip doing? Converting all the images to sprites the SNES can work with and then draw on screen, that's impressive.


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## ov3rkill (Dec 17, 2020)

Can't wait for RTX 3DS since most of those games are in 3D. 

edit: Hey look SuperRT performs better than Cyberpunk.


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## Kwyjor (Dec 17, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> Quad 3D was a thing before Tri's became the standard.


Yes, you're very clever.



> The Genesis needed less assistance achieving that type of 3D because it was nearly twice as fast as the SNES CPU.


People have been talking about this for the last thirty years. Clock speeds are not a useful comparison when the CPUs use entirely different instruction sets.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

Kwyjor said:


> Yes, you're very clever.
> 
> People have been talking about this for the last thirty years. Clock speeds are not a useful comparison when the CPUs use entirely different instruction sets.


Except in this case it actually is, especially when dealing with assembly language. I'm not about to rehash the entire 16 bit wars for you. The slow SNES CPU was best used in combination with its fast co-processors and cartridge enhancement chips. That and this RTX chip is impressive. The Genesis did things without enhancement chips and even slower co-processors at decent frame rates that shouldn't have been possible. That's equally as impressive. Wolfenstein SNES played like crap but looked good. Duke Genesis was a slightly faster but uglier experience.


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## Osakasan (Dec 17, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Sonic Flickies Island is basic 3D with no extra chip.



The game is full 2D. Pre-rendered, but 2D


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

Osakasan said:


> The game is full 2D. Pre-rendered, but 2D


The overhead isometric regular stages are not what people are referring to. It's the special stages with its 3D effect that is similar to the one used in Mickey Mania. 3D isn't an image made up of polygons, its one that shows clear depth, width and height. Polygon based accelerated 3D wasn't a reality until Quake came out. Before that it was all sprite based.


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## pcwizard7 (Dec 17, 2020)

Here my question why.... because we can


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## Deleted User (Dec 17, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> The overhead isometric regular stages are not what people are referring to. It's the special stages with its 3D effect that is similar to the one used in Mickey Mania.



Reminds me of what Konami did in Axelay released 1992 on the Snes.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

Dodain47 said:


> Reminds me of what Konami did in Axelay released 1992 on the Snes.



That's a good example of the SNES's Mode 7 using deformed sprites to create the background layer. The gameplay is all still 2D, but the background does have a nice effect that tries to simulate a 3D horizon. The SNES has its PPU's to thank for its hardware based effects, meanwhile the Genesis has to do it in software with raw CPU power. That's why it's amazing seeing any 3D running on the Genesis when it does appear, its done in software.

Here's a look at software based 3D basketball:


And here's early FPS shooter style 3D:


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## 1B51004 (Dec 17, 2020)

SexiestManAlive said:


> sweet, cant wait to play mario world with better looking shadows lol


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## realtimesave (Dec 17, 2020)

Memoir said:


> Okay...
> but...
> Why?
> 
> As a POC, this is pretty cool. I just don't know what benefit it would bring to a console that is predominantly 2D games with a handful of 3D titles?



Not only that but SNES has long been dead for about 20 years and nobody, absolutely nobody, is going to create a game using this lol.  So pointless.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 17, 2020)

realtimesave said:


> Not only that but SNES has long been dead for about 20 years and nobody, absolutely nobody, is going to create a game using this lol.  So pointless.


People like you completely miss the point. It's not about creating new games it's about enhancing existing ones the same way the MSU1 chip has.


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## SexiestManAlive (Dec 17, 2020)

realtimesave said:


> Not only that but SNES has long been dead for about 20 years and nobody, absolutely nobody, is going to create a game using this lol.  So pointless.


whos making full on games for snes? last time i checked they make romhacks, people can use existing games for this, they dont need to make whole new ones lol


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## Moon164 (Dec 17, 2020)

I can't understand why keep people ask ''why ?''

*Why did they port Sonic to the Super Nintendo?
*
Simply because it is incredible to see a game that many talked about in the 90s that did not run on the Super Nintendo now is finally running, this is incredible for those who lived the rivalry of Sega and Nintendo, at that time it was unimaginable to see Sonic running on a Super Nintendo, of course you can play Sonic on other but more current platforms, but who cares? It is simply incredible to see him on the Super Nintendo and finally dispel the myth.

*Why they brought Cave Story to Sega Genesis ?
*
Simply because it is incredible to see a modern indie running on a much older and limited platform, in addition the possibility of being able to play with a console that I spent my childhood playing is surreal.

*Why will Alwa's Awakening be released for the NES if it has already been released for PC, PS4, Xbox One and Nintendo Switch?, Why are there still people who release games for old consoles like Mega Drive and Dreamcast ?
*
Because are there people who love these platforms, people who grew up playing these platforms and seeing a new game running on that platform is incredible, being able to play a new game on the platform I grew up with is surreal.
*
Why did someone make the Super Nintendo run Ray Tracing?
*
Have you ever wondered why people port Doom to multiple platforms? Or why seeing Super Mario 64 running on Playstation 2 is more impressive and draws more attention than seeing it running on Android/iOS?, nobody cares to see a modern platform running something that we already know could run anyway, but to see a console surpassing its limits to do something that was never imagined at the time, that is surreal, that is impressive. ( It is basically the same logic as the ''impossible ports'' on the Nintendo Switch for example. )

People need to stop asking "why", there are people who grew up with such old platforms and for these people it is simply incredible to see something new running on them, it is simply incredible to see something that was unimaginable for the time finally happening on that platform , that's why.


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## Jayro (Dec 17, 2020)

So you're telling me that we could have had a badass-looking Starfox experience, but instead we got a 12fps dumpster fire on purpose..?


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## raxadian (Dec 18, 2020)

Moon164 said:


> Why did they port Sonic to the Super Nintendo?



Sonic 1 is actually quite easy to port right, is Sonic 2 and later the ones that gives you a headache when running on slower than the Sega Genesis hardware. 

That's hilarious because Sonic 1 exists to show off the Sega Genesis being faster than the Super Nintendo.


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## Jayro (Dec 18, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Sonic 1 is actually quite easy to port right, is Sonic 2 and later the ones that gives you a headache when running on slower than the Sega Genesis hardware.
> 
> That's hilarious because Sonic 1 exists to show off the Sega Genesis being faster than the Super Nintendo.


They really had to pull some magic out of their asses to get Sonic 1 ported though, I hear it was mostly re-written in many parts, like the physics. They're not 100% truly ported, but they're very close.


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## smf (Dec 18, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> It's clear you don't understand how SNES enhancement and by extension how NES mapper chips worked.



You're wrong, I know how they worked. Some of them just compressed data to reduce cartridge costs, but the game still ran on the SNES. However SuperFX games need a SNES, but they aren't running on the SNES.

It's like when people put PC motherboards in classic computer/console cases and claim they have Windows 10 running on an Atari 2600 etc.



Moon164 said:


> *Why did they port Sonic to the Super Nintendo?*





Moon164 said:


> *Why they brought Cave Story to Sega Genesis ?*





Moon164 said:


> *Why will Alwa's Awakening be released for the NES if it has already been released for PC, PS4, Xbox One and Nintendo Switch?, Why are there still people who release games for old consoles like Mega Drive and Dreamcast ?*



I don't ask any of those, you have a real challenge of fitting those games onto different hardware.



Moon164 said:


> Why did someone make the Super Nintendo run Ray Tracing?



The Super Nintendo isn't ray tracing. It's an FPGA that is running 3 50mhz cpu's (I assume ones he downloaded?) running some ray tracing software (source code available since the 80's,maybe he wrote his own?) that uses the SNES as an output device. The DE10 nano even has it's own HDMI, so he could have just output straight to a TV without going through a SNES.

I'm not sure what the challenge is.

The articles I've read are thin on the details, without that it's difficult to get excited and I don't see why anyone else is either.

Hacking a pi zero to dma a rendered scene into a snes would be more impressive to me, because it's not designed for that. A FPGA is designed exactly to do what he did with it. It's also more likely that people would build them (especially if you could load SNES games into RAM and then have the GPU emulate a cartridge interface for a cheap flash cart).



Jayro said:


> So you're telling me that we could have had a badass-looking Starfox experience, but instead we got a 12fps dumpster fire on purpose..?



Obviously not, the DE10 nano didn't exist in 1990. The processing power available today is considerably higher than what they had available back then for the price that people would pay, you'd need room size million $ computers to get close.


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## raxadian (Dec 18, 2020)

Jayro said:


> They really had to pull some magic out of their asses to get Sonic 1 ported though, I hear it was mostly re-written in many parts, like the physics. They're not 100% truly ported, but they're very close.



That's because the Snes cannot emulate the Sega Genesis, the code must be changed. At least they are not atuck using an Apple II to do it.   

Well, that reminds me, whatever happened to thaT Nes game maker project? I read someone was trying to make an open source version...


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## raging_chaos (Dec 18, 2020)

smf said:


> You're wrong, I know how they worked. Some of them just compressed data to reduce cartridge costs, but the game still ran on the SNES. However SuperFX games need a SNES, but *they aren't running on the SNES*.



It's still clear you do not know what you are talking about or how co-processors work in parallel with a CPU. The news of this enhancement chip also isn't for you, it's for those that appreciate what the MSU-1 chip brought to existing SNES games. The community will find ways to support this chip, you can move on.

I don't think anyone here is expecting 100% brand new games to be developed for this at all. However I would like to see some ray traced lighting effects during special effects in RPGs. As said before a ray traced Star Fox would be fun to look at. The possibilities are small but welcome.


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## nashismo (Dec 19, 2020)

This is really amazing! I just fell in love of that demo  Thank you GBAtemp for these things.


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## smf (Dec 19, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> It's still clear you do not know what you are talking about or how co-processors work in parallel with a CPU.



It's clear you're using insults to try to win an argument. But that kind of shit just makes me want to argue with you more, so it's pointless.

If the co-processor is doing all the work and it's modern and expensive, then what is the challenge? Just hook your pc up to the snes and it's running windows and linux on the snes right? I can imagine the click bait youtube videos already.

He's using a genesis controller hooked up to the DE10 and the DE10 Nano developer board is quite capable of outputting a video signal and, the ray tracing is able to run faster when it's not hooked up to a SNES. It's literally better if you run the thing completely standalone.

The DE10 Nano developer board is also heavily subsidized by Intel (for now) which makes it difficult to turn it into a product.



raging_chaos said:


> it's for those that appreciate what the MSU-1 chip brought to existing SNES games.



MSU-1 is more interesting as it is for expanding SNES games. Porting existing games to Super RT would mean rewriting the games, which is going to break the ship of theseus.



raxadian said:


> That's because the Snes cannot emulate the Sega Genesis, the code must be changed.



I read his post as they had to use different algorithms, rather than just translating the 68000 code to 65816.


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## nashismo (Dec 19, 2020)

smf said:


> It's clear you're using insults to try to win an argument. But that kind of shit just makes me want to argue with you more, so it's pointless.
> 
> If the co-processor is doing all the work and it's modern and expensive, then what is the challenge? Just hook your pc up to the snes and it's running windows and linux on the snes right? I can imagine the click bait youtube videos already.
> 
> ...



Just don't be an asshole and let others enjoy this, if you disagree, great, go somewhere else and do something positive or whatever.

These people are amazing and have done this for all of us Snes users, I will always thank people like this. And sure I must say my greatest dream is to see games ported to the Snes using the SA-1 chip, things like NeoGeo games etc, but this is good because it makes the Snes scene alive! And that is always positive.


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## smf (Dec 19, 2020)

nashismo said:


> And sure I must say my greatest dream is to see games ported to the Snes using the SA-1 chip, things like NeoGeo games etc,



That would be amazing. Sure you could stick a Pi in a snes case and just run the neogeo games, but just shoving some modern hardware in and running new software on it isn't the same. Use three SuperFX overclocked to 57mhz on a cartridge and run ray tracing on that monster then I'd see how it has anything to do with the SNES.

I've been tempted to create a memory expansion for the PS1, like the Saturn had for the capcom games. All my PS1 dev gear is out of reach at the moment though. I just won't claim it sticks to the spirit of 90's technology, if I used anything that wasn't possible in the 90's.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 19, 2020)

smf said:


> It's clear you're using insults to try to win an argument. But that kind of *shit just makes me want to argue* with you more, so it's pointless.
> 
> If the co-processor is doing all the work and it's modern and expensive, then what is the challenge? Just hook your pc up to the snes and it's running windows and linux on the snes right? I can imagine the click bait youtube videos already.



It's not an insult, its very clear you have issues with others discussing and enjoying this. What's the challenge? Being able to do it while using the bottlenecks of the SNES hardware to work with. This news wasn't targeted towards you at all. Here's simple PC terms for you, any child should be able to follow:

SNES Ricoh CPU = Ryzen CPU
SNES PPU = Integrated Graphics
SNES SPU = Integrated Sound
RTX Chip = RTX 3090
SNES Console = PC

Is the Ryzen chip calculating real time ray tracing? No. Is the Ryzen chip just sitting there idle doing nothing? No. Is the Ryzen CPU based PC system running ray traced Cyberpunk? Yes. No one anywhere would say, "that Ryzen chip is just sitting there while the RTX 3090 is doing all the work, that's not impressive." The PC is running a ray trace capable game, and by extension the SNES is running a ray trace capable homebrew app. This isn't hard to follow, if data is being feed into and read from the SNES's buffer, then its running it. You're intent on just being negative on this subject, just move on.

Genesis controller? I could swear that looks like a SNES controller plugged into the port to me. Completely rewrite game code? Here is where I know you have no clue what you are talking about. Plotting simple points and having it calculated in parallel as existing code isn't rewriting. The MSU-1 chip didn't rewrite any code, it replaced existing assets in real time. Ever seen a boss that's being fought on a black background? In most cases the background is black because the boss is actually being drawn in the background by the chips responsible for background effects and rotations. In a case like this you replace the 2D assets with ones from the RTX chip in the buffer. Anyone want any Ikaruga style bosses in 2D shooters? This chip could make swapping those assets possible.


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## Deleted User (Dec 19, 2020)

Ben Carter plans to release the code under an open source license.
I wonder if this could be implemented into Snes9x like the MSU-1 support?
I'm planning on releasing the code once it's been tidied up a bit, most likely under some kind of open source license.— Ben Carter (@CarterBen) December 16, 2020


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## raging_chaos (Dec 19, 2020)

Dodain47 said:


> Ben Carter plans to release the code under an open source license.
> I wonder if this could be implemented into Snes9x like the MSU-1 support?
> https://twitter.com/CarterBen/status/1339038909477474304


More than likely this will be supported by emulators first, like the ones from Byuu. I wouldn't expect any real hardware until homebrew support by the community is well underway.


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## Deleted User (Dec 19, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> More than likely this will be supported by emulators first, like the ones from Byuu. I wouldn't expect any real hardware until homebrew support by the community is well underway.


I would love to see this running on Snes9x for the Nintendo Wii.
I hope the code is not too "heavy" on the hardware.


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## smf (Dec 19, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> Being able to do it while using the bottlenecks of the SNES hardware to work with. This news wasn't targeted towards you at all. Here's simple PC terms for you, any child should be able to follow:



Again, with the insults.

So you're saying the challenge is in sending a rendered frame to the SNES, like the Super FX did in 1993? Well they say simple things please simple minds. Oh shit, you've dragged me to your level.

A standalone version without the SNES interface would be cool though, without all the click bait. Then anyone with a mister could play with it & in 24 bit at > 20fps it would look better.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 19, 2020)

smf said:


> Again, with the insults.
> 
> So you're saying the challenge is in sending a frame to the SNES, like the Super FX did in 1993?



The challenge is in writing the code. Is your challenge just to be a troll?

The command program itself is uploaded from the SNES and stored in a local 4K RAM buffer - animation is performed by writing modified commands into this buffer as required. Once a frame is rendered, the PPU converter module turns the framebuffer into a format that can be DMAed directly to the SNES VRAM for display. Stop hating on it, unless you can code an example of you doing something better just move on. You have nothing to add to this discussion.


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## smf (Dec 19, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> The challenge is in writing the code. Is your challenge just to be a troll?



I have a habit of mirroring people, so probably that is how I come across to you.



raging_chaos said:


> Genesis controller?



Yes?

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...n-unmodified-snes-revved-up-with-ray-tracing/

_*His setup also splits out to display debug information via HDMI, and that visual feed is controlled, amusingly enough, with a Sega Genesis controller, since Carter found that kind of controller was easier to connect directly to a De-10 Nano FPGA board.
*_


raging_chaos said:


> Plotting simple points and having it calculated in parallel as existing code isn't rewriting.



But sending an entire world view up to the Super RT, so that it can reflect things outside the visible space, is not just a case of replacing "plotting simple points" in a game. If you don't rewrite the games then you will be left with the same 90's popup and objects disappearing from reflections as soon as they go behind the camera. You might be faster than a stock Super FX, but a 57mhz overclocked Super FX will give you a run for it's money. 

But I look forward to seeing how you solve the issues when you port Star Fox.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 19, 2020)

smf said:


> I have a habit of mirroring people, so probably that is how I come across to you.


Was that supposed to be an attempt at... anything? This is what you are degrading to? You don't even challenge yourself to come up with something meaningful? 

As for the edit you added, the Genesis controller is for debugging. Do you even know what that means? A mouse and keyboard could have been used for debugging. An Atari controller with the same exact interface could have been used. Anyone that's ever soldered an adapter for classic controllers would understand this. You're also conveniently leaving out the second display being used for that debugging and ignoring the part where he clearly says "*The SNES is firmly in the driver's seat here," Carter remarks, "but the FPGA add-on board still picks up largely where the SNES left off*." Just stop this is too far above you.

Here's the blog from the man himself:
https://www.shironekolabs.com/posts/superrt/



nashismo said:


> *Just don't be an asshole and let others enjoy this, if you disagree, great, go somewhere else and do something positive or whatever.*
> 
> These people are amazing and have done this for all of us Snes users, I will always thank people like this. And sure I must say my greatest dream is to see games ported to the Snes using the SA-1 chip, things like NeoGeo games etc, but this is good because it makes the Snes scene alive! And that is always positive.



Well said, it's unfortunate others can't seem to comprehend.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 19, 2020)

smf said:


> You might be faster than a stock Super FX, but a 57mhz overclocked Super FX will give you a run for it's money.
> 
> But I look forward to seeing how you solve the issues when you port Star Fox.



You can stop adding useless edits to your post. You are attempting to compare the SFX co-processor to FPGA just because you saw 50Mhz, while still not saying anything meaningful. Anyone that remembers how the PSX handled lighting effects on sprites during ports will know what to expect out of something like this.

Also theres this: "For debugging, I used the HDMI interface on the DE10 board to output data to a second monitor, along with a Megadrive joypad connected to the GPIO pins to manipulate the debug system. Resource constraints mean that this has to be disabled if all three ray engine cores are enabled, however."







> Just don't be an asshole and let others enjoy this, if you disagree, great, go somewhere else and do something positive or whatever.


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## smallissue (Dec 19, 2020)

I clicked on an article about this on the chrome homepage. I was still sleepy 
i litterally spent 4 minutes confirming this was real.


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## smf (Dec 20, 2020)

raging_chaos said:


> You are attempting to compare the SFX co-processor to FPGA just because you saw 50Mhz, while still not saying anything meaningful.



I'm comparing to the SFX cpu because those are the 3d snes games & ray tracing needs 3d. You're trying too hard to insult me you're missing the obvious points in my posts. I assume you don't cope well with people disagreeing with you. You should work on that.



raging_chaos said:


> Anyone that remembers how the PSX handled lighting effects on sprites during ports will know what to expect out of something like this.



So the same slow down, the same amount of popup with some transparency and reflection that drops in and out as polygons appear and disappear from the screen? Certainly that isn't what I expected from the hype in the articles. Maybe should have waited until a game was actually done.


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## raging_chaos (Dec 20, 2020)

smf said:


> I'm comparing to the SFX cpu because those are the 3d snes games & ray tracing needs 3d. You're trying too hard to insult me you're missing the obvious points in my posts. I assume you don't cope well with people disagreeing with you.
> 
> 
> 
> So the same slow down, the same amount of popup with some transparency and reflection that drops in and out as polygons appear and disappear from the screen? Certainly that isn't what I expected from the hype in the articles.



Just stop already, it's beyond clear the technical aspects of the subject you are attempting to discuss is beyond you.

You can stop trying to flesh out your one sentence posts after the fact as well. There's is a post history.


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## DinohScene (Dec 21, 2020)

Knock it off now.


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## Gunstorm (Dec 21, 2020)

Star fox can be awesome with this


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## nani17 (Dec 21, 2020)

Super Mario Kart RTX edition please


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## Deleted User (Dec 26, 2020)

https://www.shironekolabs.com/posts/the-superrt-tools/
There is a new post about the tools that were used during the development process.


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