# Barack Obama or John McCain?



## caffolote (Aug 1, 2008)

Who do you want to win the election? Personally, I think Obama should win.


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## podunk1269 (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't like either:
McCain is the damn antichrist, but Obama keeps changing his mind on shit


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## scoozer (Aug 1, 2008)

obama


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## arctic_flame (Aug 1, 2008)

Anyone in the UK who watches "Mock the week" will no longer be able to take this topic seriously...

Obama anyway.


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## Deleted User (Aug 1, 2008)

OBAMA MUTHA****ERS!!

McCain is too likely to sever our relationships with other countries with his temper.


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## Defiance (Aug 1, 2008)

McCain.  They both suck, but Obama sucks more.


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## Jax (Aug 1, 2008)

Obama.

You should add a poll.


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## jumpman17 (Aug 1, 2008)

America is so screwed. How do I vote "None of the above, start over and find new candidates" on the ballet?


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## dinofan01 (Aug 1, 2008)

Nether really appeal to me actually. I guess Mccain. But I would prefer
Bill Clinton back. J/k


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## Alerek (Aug 1, 2008)

Already going with Obama, and that's completely aside from the fact that McCain's chances of outliving his term are drastically lower than his competition.


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## comtois (Aug 1, 2008)

caffolote said:
			
		

> Who do you want to win the election? Personally, I think Obama should win.



well, with the two choices, i want obama to win.  personally, i think hillary should win.

how many cancerous growths did mccain have removed this week?


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## Twiffles (Aug 1, 2008)

Obama, because my neighbors are obsessed with him.
But really, I want WeeGee for president.


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## SargeSmash (Aug 1, 2008)

McCain.  I'm no fan of his, but I'll take the lesser of two evils.  As a conservative, we didn't exactly have any good choices this time around.

Obama is charming, and displays leadership ability in scripted situations, but he fumbles horribly in impromptu situations.  Heck, he makes Bush look like a genius in those instances.  That _is_ the primary thing that I hear, that he's charismatic, and a great leader.  But you have to ask yourself, would he lead us in the right direction?  I would argue not.  I don't think I've heard a good idea out of him yet.

I'd take Reagan back in a heartbeat.  Heck, I think Reagan could govern better from beyond the grave than these two.


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## fischju (Aug 1, 2008)

McCain on GTA IV: 'Sin against God'
Obama on GTA IV: 'Parents should police what their kids play'

Hm....


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## layzieyez (Aug 1, 2008)

Obama.  And I'm in the military.  McCain was opposed to all the great changes added to the G.I. Bill and he's supposed to be pro-military?  What a two faced liar.  He's totally out of touch with young people in general.  He's admitted he knows nothing of email and internet.  He let the world pass him by and now he wants to lead the world.


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## Costello (Aug 1, 2008)

This is what most of us european think (at least, us French): Mc Cain = Bush because they're from the same political party, and Bush = ultimate worst president ever. 
So yeah, everyone pretty much goes with Obama here.
But hey, we don't get to vote so I don't know what this is worth. Probably nothing.


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## NeSchn (Aug 1, 2008)

podunk1269 said:
			
		

> I don't like either:
> McCain is the damn antichrist, but Obama keeps changing his mind on shit


No, I say it goes the other way around.

I say go with Ralph Nader.


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## SkankyYankee (Aug 1, 2008)

Obama is the lesser of two evils as of NOW. You can pinpiont the exact time McCain turned to the crazy right wingers instead of the middle ground, around middle or 02 or 03 if i'm not mistaken. His stances in 99' were so different i was gonna vote for him if he won the primary, talk about flip flop. Obama seems like the better canidate but he also seems just as inexperienced as Bush Jr. If McCain keeps up the american aggression on the world its only a matter of time before someone tries to nuke NYC, which living in NE means ill die a slow death from fallout. Obama would then be the only choice left.


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## granville (Aug 1, 2008)

Obama. I'm amazed this thread has managed to stay civil!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I give it another hour at the most...


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## SkankyYankee (Aug 1, 2008)

NeSchn said:
			
		

> podunk1269 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Its choices like that that allowed Bush Jr. in and why he was re-elected.


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## bobrules (Aug 1, 2008)

Lol speaking of anti christ, it's definitely obama, although on radio they say it's actually tony blair. I don't mind obama, but I think he might ultimately destroy United states.


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## Gamesphere (Aug 1, 2008)

It's kind of scary how many make up their mind for voting without substantial cause and reasoning.

If I could vote(Underage), I'd defienetly vote for Obama.

Why? Obama supports universal healthcare. Something we REALLY REALLY REALLY need in this deteriorating country. (You EU residents have it sooo good) but not only that, Obama is a strong leader. He interacts well with others and would be a great representative for the US in overseas business. He's young compared to previous presidents, but that only makes him more approachable. Some would say his inexperience is something to worry about, but he'll get through it. He's african-american which would be a plus for me,(History) BUT IS NOT the SOLE REASON I'd vote for him. If he had the same views as John McCain, I wouldn't think twice about not picking him..

On the John McCain side, Something is bothering me. Not only because his views are very similar to Bush, but the way he's running his campaign... He said distinctly in the beginning that his campaign was not going to be a slander, but now that's all that's playing on TV. Horrible ads comparing Obama to Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears? Huh? Where could yo uever make that connection. McCain challenged Obama to "Go visit the troops in Iraq", Obama visits and then it becomes a matter of " He's not in the US, where the problems matter" What? Make up your mind....  We seriously need a revolution in the White House, not just a change.... McCain isn't looking to bring that.


Im proud to call myself an "informed" American, I watch the News everyday, MSNBC Keith Obermann 

The best part about it? Im only 15


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## arctic_flame (Aug 1, 2008)

Gamesphere said:
			
		

> It's kind of scary how many make up their mind for voting without substantial cause and reasoning.
> 
> If I could vote(Underage), I'd defienetly vote for Obama.
> 
> ...



Although I agree with you, you're not looking at all sides of the argument. We have it sooo good? The NHS uses more public money than ever before on worse and worse service. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. You wouldn't want bumper tax increases to fund said universal healthcare.

Also, the mainstream media is a terrible way of informing yourself, you tend to get very skewed views depending on what "wing" the particular news programme has sided with. I just did a little research on Keith Olbermann, and his views in particular are quite disturbing...

Keep an open mind. I believe Obama is the lesser of 2 evils in this campaign.


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 1, 2008)

McCain
Aside from what some uneducated types would want you to believe who just follow what the press tell them to think he does work from both sides of the isle at times.  His plans more than less are sound, and while he has changed his mind on stuff in many cases it wasn't just for political expediency.  I wanted this guy instead of Bushie back in 2000, and since that time he's done some nice across the isle work with things like McCain-Feingold, McCain-Kennedy, etc.  He's a R, but he's also a little bit liberal...he's moderate in enough things.  He at the least doesn't use the bible like a diving rod like the current man does, and McCain listens to people and takes advice.

Obama
I was a fan of this guy but ever since shortly after offing Clinton he has been steadily pissing me off.  The guy was (is?) about change, but the thing is he never talked much substance until after Clinton.  I liked his tone, his general hope message, and the way he handled himself wanting to be above the race card and other bs.  Problem is since being the man of the party he has very reversed himself on those points, but he's also spelled out a lot of plans that really are financially irresponsible and frightening.  He has talked about how this and that can pay for stuff and who should get pillaged more or less in taxes, etc and it's insane.  Yes the rich should pay more in taxes, proportionately more, not just because they make more in general.  He wants to tax business and he talks about cutting us middle class and less types a break...but dumbass doesn't get if you hose the businesses those expenses pass onto US and we pay more and lose more.  Also he has been time and again panding the damn race card...'he has a funny name, he has crazy ideas, he's not like the other guys on the currency, oh and also he's black.'  What kind of crap is that to run a pep rally off of, and then underhandedly say the republicans and mccain will try and scare them over him being black.  McCain has never gone near that race card or the party in general either...it's disgusting and I've lost faith in the jerk and hope he gets buried.  Seems general polls are showing the same with his great 12% average lead down to margin of error now.


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## abaddon41_80 (Aug 1, 2008)

McCain is much more capable than Obama, imo.  I have been saying that Obama is much more of a celebrity than a politician since long before those commercials aired.  But then again I still think Bush has been an average president considering his situation so I might be an idiot


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## Gamesphere (Aug 1, 2008)

I knew this argument would appear. IMO he referenced race, but he didn't play the race card... He didn't say he thinks McCain and party would say that.

What Obama was trying to get at, Is the republicans are using low-road politics to distract the American people from the REAL Issues...And Frankly, that is just what they are doing. 


@artic flame, Yes, I know to be wary of bias in News media. I'd like to see Keiths veiws if you have the link. Please don't link me to Wikipedia X(, All I know is, Obermans views CANNOT be any worse then the horrible scumbag that walks the earth known as Bill'O'Riley....


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## bobrules (Aug 1, 2008)

I think Obama did play the race card, by saying that he is different than McCain. So he's trying to make african american think that John McCain is treating him differently cause he looks different.


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## Prophet (Aug 1, 2008)

Obama.

Because he is black and my niece and nephew need some light.

Because although I can't say I'm optimistic that his presidency will be as grand and revolutionary as I wish, I think that I can afford him a chance. After 8 years of seeing the American ideals twisted via fear, I think we can afford an inspirational figure a chance to bring about the "change" he seems to genuinely believe in. How ever naive it might ultimately be.

Lastly, because he is the lesser of two evils. McCain voted against making Martin Luther Kings birthday a national holiday. So yeah, I'd rather see the nation burn than give it to him.


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## cosmo2389 (Aug 1, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> McCain. They both suck, but Obama sucks more.



Seconded!

I mean think about it... McCain seems to be veerrrry close-minded and wants to continue the war (both things I don't agree with) and Obama screams "Change, Change, Change..." but fails to tell exactly what he plans to change... 

Also, Obama is on tour and being followed as if he were a pop star or something of the like and I don't think someone like him will be able to handle the country very well... I mean he lacks experience and also has rather mysterious origins... He spent quite some time growing up in the Middle East and on last check, the Middle East is generally a haven for those who have a strong disinterest/dislike of America. And another thing, if you do notice he does tend to talk down to his main group of supporters (aka African Americans). Oh yeah, as someone else stated (who I cannot seem to remember their name), "You definitely shouldn't raise taxes in a down market."

Thus the bad outweighs the good for both, and McCain at least seems to have less bad things against him...

Overall I would probably not even vote if I didn't have such a strong want for Obama to lose...


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## Sonicslasher (Aug 1, 2008)

Gamesphere said:
			
		

> If I could vote(Underage), I'd defienetly vote for Obama.
> 
> Why? Obama supports universal healthcare. Something we REALLY REALLY REALLY need in this deteriorating country. (*You EU residents have it sooo good*) but not only that, Obama is a strong leader. He interacts well with others and would be a great representative for the US in overseas business. He's young compared to previous presidents, but that only makes him more approachable. Some would say his inexperience is something to worry about, but he'll get through it. He's african-american which would be a plus for me,(History) BUT IS NOT the SOLE REASON I'd vote for him. If he had the same views as John McCain, I wouldn't think twice about not picking him..
> 
> The best part about it? Im only 15


God dammit.....

Universal health care is the LAST thing we need...
This isn't god damn Europe or goddamn Singapore or goddamn Germany, this is the USA! 
And in the USA we are spending TOO MUCH goddamn money on TOO MANY programs that aren't working.
Universal health care is SOCIALISM, equal share, level playing field.  And yes, I think Obama is a SOCIALIST! 
Another reason it's bad, England is my example of choice, HIGH FUCKING TAXES. Who do you think pays the government for all this goddamn foolishness, Bill Gates?
I'm 15, and a conservative. Not democrat nor republican, but a conservative!

Don't get me start on the fucking global warming issue.....It's a myth...IMO
DRILL FOR OIL!!!! USA USA USA (You people in the USA the envy EU residents can suck mah balls)


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## ca82686 (Aug 1, 2008)

I forget who said it, but some pundit said "since when does crashing a plane make you qualified to be president?" - i agree with that, McCain is just so, so old, and completely out of touch with everything, he even said iraq - pakistan border, and just so many more things.  oh, and newsflash, obama is black, so race is a valid topic of discussion, hes not playing any cards, because, he is the card.  I'm not sure how stating a fact that he doesn't look like all the other presidents means he is playing a race card, he doesn't look like all the other presidents.  People who would vote for mccain scare me.


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## podunk1269 (Aug 1, 2008)

dinofan01 said:
			
		

> Nether really appeal to me actually. I guess Mccain. But I would prefer
> Bill Clinton back. J/k



not joking, I wish bill was back too


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## cosmo2389 (Aug 1, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> I forget who said it, but some pundit said "since when does crashing a plane make you qualified to be president?" - i agree with that, McCain is just so, so old, and completely out of touch with everything, he even said iraq - pakistan border, and just so many more things. oh, and newsflash, obama is black, so race is a valid topic of discussion, hes not playing any cards, because, he is the card. I'm not sure how stating a fact that he doesn't look like all the other presidents means he is playing a race card, he doesn't look like all the other presidents. People who would vote for mccain scare me.



While Obama is African-American, the race card factor shouldn't have become as important and prominent as it has. Everyone has to remember, this is a political campaign not a racial standoff, and something that regards skin color shouldn't have become this important.

Also, YOU scare me...


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## ca82686 (Aug 1, 2008)

they just need something, anything to talk about, this one comment just exploded for no apparent reason, and then mccain saying zomg its shameful blah blah blah shut up, you're the one playing paris hilton ads talking about obama, I used to respect McCain until he turned out to be a two faced puppet.  Maverick my ass, he is now bush jr.  and good, good, keep being afraid, it feeds my powers.


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## cosmo2389 (Aug 1, 2008)

Actually I haven't even seen those ads... I somewhat agree with your Bush Jr. comment though... I just 
disike Obama more than McCain...


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## abaddon41_80 (Aug 1, 2008)

Gamesphere said:
			
		

> I knew this argument would appear. IMO he referenced race, but he didn't play the race card... He didn't say he thinks McCain and party would say that.
> 
> What Obama trying to get at, Is the republicans are using low-road politics to distract the American people from the REAL Issues...And Frankly, that is just what they are doing.



But Obama is the one that brought up race to begin with and he did say that the republicans would try and use it to distract from the real issues which he doesn't even discuss.  All Obama does is say what he thinks people want to here and bring up his race/name to try and get people to like or relate to him and he is going to win through that, not through ability


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## ca82686 (Aug 1, 2008)

thats what everyone says aba, its what they do to get elected.  I've always said once bush gets out of there, it can only get better, because right now we're basically in shambles, but if Mccain gets in there, we are really, really screwed.  Obama at least has the potential to be good, McCain represents all that is wrong in this country, and I don't mean to say Obama is the answer, but, lets just give him a shot, he really cant be worse than bush.  also why does everyone say reagan was a good president?  Iran-contra accord much?  why do the republicans think reagan is some sort of hero, he was a movie star, so if they played the hilton-britney adds against him, it would make sense, since he actually was a movie/pop star.  why should obama be chastised because he is popular?  lets see, a croud of 200,000 people in germany vs. a few people in a grocery store, hmm, i think mccain is just kind of jealous.  He's the one who suggested the trip to obama.  Its all just a load from him and his growths.


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## Prophet (Aug 1, 2008)

Sonicslasher said:
			
		

> Universal health care is SOCIALISM, equal share, level playing field. And yes, I think Obama is a SOCIALIST!
> EGAD MAN, WE MUST STOP HIM!!! LEST HIS DEMONIC VISIONS OF HEALTHCARE EQUALITY BECOME OUR DYSTOPIAN* REALITY!!!
> Um, Hi. I am socialist, could you tell me what exactly is so bad about an “equal share” and “leveled playing field”? Enlighten me please.
> 
> ...


People like you, people who can put together a coherent idea, seemingly independent of propaganda... You, are singularly the reason that I still hold a glimmer of faith in this country. I am completely serious in this: thank you. This thread was on the fringe of becoming another haven for ignorance, caged thought and parroting, but that comment even in the midst of it's probable burial; it leaves me smiling. Because at the very least I know, however small in numbers, there are people who exist beyond the imposed veil of a corrupt system.


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## Gamesphere (Aug 1, 2008)

Exactly Exactly EXACTLY! Thank you ca82686 and Prophet



			
				Sonicslasher said:
			
		

> God dammit.....
> 
> Universal health care is the LAST thing we need...
> This isn't god damn Europe or goddamn Singapore or goddamn Germany, this is the USA!
> ...



Just this alone sounds like your born during the 40's.... 

Do you fear the Red Scare? Are you disapproving of the Olympics being held in Beijing? 

What's wrong with socialism when it's helping millions of people let alone yourself! Don't you know taxes are already high? And a level playing field, Whats wrong with that? Or do you prefer being the higher up looking down on others? Heaven forbid they were to be equal as you...

Global Warming is a myth IYO, im fine with whatever you believe in, I just ask everyone who doesn't believe, IF it is true, What the hell are you gonna do when the seas levels rise? Saying a sorry, isn't going to make them drop....

Drill for Oil, You're talking about The Government spending money on ridiculous foolishness let alone the war, Do you realize that drilling for oil can cost millions of tax payer money?? And since you seem not to know anything about oil drilling, Did you know it may take at least 4 to 5 years to even hit oil?? In the meantime, we are using a whole lot of money that can be put to setting up a solid healthcare system or even fixing are damn failing economy. Or even better, How about we put that money to good use by researching and producing renewable resources that we can use for power and fuel...


Thank God, You are not President.


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## abaddon41_80 (Aug 2, 2008)

ca82686 said:
			
		

> thats what everyone says aba, its what they do to get elected.  I've always said once bush gets out of there, it can only get better, because right now we're basically in shambles, but if Mccain gets in there, we are really, really screwed.  Obama at least has the potential to be good, McCain represents all that is wrong in this country, and I don't mean to say Obama is the answer, but, lets just give him a shot, he really cant be worse than bush.  also why does everyone say reagan was a good president?  Iran-contra accord much?  why do the republicans think reagan is some sort of hero, he was a movie star, so if they played the hilton-britney adds against him, it would make sense, since he actually was a movie/pop star.  why should obama be chastised because he is popular?  lets see, a croud of 200,000 people in germany vs. a few people in a grocery store, hmm, i think mccain is just kind of jealous.  He's the one who suggested the trip to obama.  Its all just a load from him and his growths.



I understand that politicians do say what people want to hear when they are running for office but they still discuss the issues, Obama almost completely ignores the issues and just focuses on making people like him.  And btw, it would be easy for someone to be worse than Bush


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## Panzer Tacticer (Aug 2, 2008)

If "none of the above" was actually on the ballot, a non person would actually get elected me thinks.

I feel sad for the US. Oh well, no one cried for me when I had to vote last federal election in Canada, at least now an American will know how it felt to be a Canadian come election time.


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## Sonicslasher (Aug 2, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> EGAD MAN, WE MUST STOP HIM!!! LEST HIS DEMONIC VISIONS OF HEALTHCARE EQUALITY BECOME OUR DYSTOPIAN* REALITY!!!
> Um, Hi. I am socialist, could you tell me what exactly is so bad about an “equal share” and “leveled playing field”? Enlighten me please.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR
^

Better to be dead then red!


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## Sonicslasher (Aug 2, 2008)

Gamesphere said:
			
		

> Exactly Exactly EXACTLY! Thank you ca82686 and Prophet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BadAnimal (Aug 2, 2008)

SargeSmash said:
			
		

> McCain.  I'm no fan of his, but I'll take the lesser of two evils.  As a conservative, we didn't exactly have any good choices this time around.
> 
> Obama is charming, and displays leadership ability in scripted situations, but he fumbles horribly in impromptu situations.  Heck, he makes Bush look like a genius in those instances.  That _is_ the primary thing that I hear, that he's charismatic, and a great leader.  But you have to ask yourself, would he lead us in the right direction?  I would argue not.  I don't think I've heard a good idea out of him yet.
> 
> I'd take Reagan back in a heartbeat.  Heck, I think Reagan could govern better from beyond the grave than these two.



QFT.

McCain is another Bush and that doesn't make me too happy. I'm a conservative and Bush is no conservative. He spends money like a Democrat. I don't understand why the liberals don't like Bush, he's one of them.

Obama is a Socialist, communist, inexperienced, America-hating idiot. The first thing he'll do is raise our taxes. You people better be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.

If we could only have Reagan back. I thought Fred Thompson was the closest thing we had to a Reagan.

Sigh.


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## ca82686 (Aug 2, 2008)

ha, you're welcome prophet and game, glad to be of service, its rare nowadays, and, wow, i think we got someone prophet was talking about right above me =P  ...why is obama those things, per say?  and isnt saying communist and socialist rather redundant?  I'm not seeing why he hates america, other than hes a secret muslim right?  reagan was not that great, read my earlier post.  yep, those damn democrats, last time we had one in we had the largest surplus in history, damn that bill clinton.


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## BadAnimal (Aug 2, 2008)

Sonicslasher said:
			
		

> Universal health care is the LAST thing we need...
> This isn't god damn Europe or goddamn Singapore or goddamn Germany, this is the USA!
> And in the USA we are spending TOO MUCH goddamn money on TOO MANY programs that aren't working.
> Universal health care is SOCIALISM, equal share, level playing field.  And yes, I think Obama is a SOCIALIST!
> ...



QFT Sonicslasher. 15 eh? I'm impressed.


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## Trippy (Aug 2, 2008)

Third party or whoever's left.


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## Codekingmss (Aug 2, 2008)

Closest thing Republican had to a decent candidate was Ron Paul.  He's intelligent, and knows what needs to happen in the next few years.

Unfortunately, he's unelectable due to the fact that half the things that he writes (or is attributed to him) are paranoid and out of touch with reality.

We do need a new Reagan.  He was the best president this country has ever had.


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## ca82686 (Aug 2, 2008)

ca82686 said:
			
		

> ha, you're welcome prophet and game, glad to be of service, its rare nowadays, and, wow, i think we got someone prophet was talking about right above me =P  ...why is obama those things, per say?  and isnt saying communist and socialist rather redundant?  I'm not seeing why he hates america, other than hes a secret muslim right?  reagan was not that great, read my earlier post.  yep, those damn democrats, last time we had one in we had the largest surplus in history, damn that bill clinton.


are you kidding, ca82686?   you are such a communist, and obviously hate ameirca just like that obama, because he doesnt wear a flag lapel, because that obviously shows a feeling that should live in your heart.  owait, im me, so that means im a communist too, IN SOVIET RUSSIA, COMMUNISM SERVES YOU

oh, sorry about that, I figured i'd hijack my own post before someone else did.  ...why does everyone think reagan was so great?  im still not getting it, no one will give any reasoning behind this.


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## Codekingmss (Aug 2, 2008)

The reason Clinton had such a surplus was pure luck in timing.  

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble for more information.


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## Gamesphere (Aug 2, 2008)

Why the fuck are we linking to Wikipedia as sources? I could go on there and make sure every President is a damn monkey. Wikipedia is not a damn source for anything....



			
				Sonicslasher said:
			
		

> Prophet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You Idiot, He's using sarcasm dumbass... not agreeing with you...

Im sorry but some of this shit pisses me off, The world could honestly be such a better place than it is right now if it wasn't for blind opinions.


DBLE EDIT: Ok, You ass, Now you are really acting 15... I never said any of those words so stop changing the quote tags....moron...


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## Sonicslasher (Aug 2, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> DBLE EDIT: Ok, You ass, Now you are really acting 15... I never said any of those words so stop changing the quote tags....moron...


Oh fuck, sorry about that!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Again, that was a mistake!!!


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## dark42 (Aug 2, 2008)

Obama FTW!
He came to my town recently.
Politicians usually don't campaign here because we have a population of about 16,000.
I think this is the first time a candidate has done this since Truman, but he was from this state.

Well, that and I agree with him on most issues, except that he supports tougher copyright laws. >_>
Oh well, he'll end this stupid war Bush started.


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## Sonicslasher (Aug 2, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Oh well, he'll end this stupid war Bush started.


He won't.


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## virtualboy (Aug 2, 2008)

The fact is Bush JR inherited this war. Bush SR started it and his mistake was not finishing it when he had the chance.


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## XeonZ (Aug 2, 2008)

Codekingmss said:
			
		

> The reason Clinton had such a surplus was pure luck in timing.
> 
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble for more information.




Yeah the rise of the Internet did help him a lot.  Bush Sr's taxes had a little to do with it too and at least give him some credit he wasn't deficit spending like Reagan.

I'd probably vote for Obama.  His economic plan appeals to me for the most part and I think it's good that he can gather support in other countries.  Though I do hope the US will be a tad bit more isolationist than what have been recently.  I know McCain says he'll cut taxes while cutting government spending but we'll see.  I will support McCain on his net neutrality stance though.


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## The Teej (Aug 2, 2008)

DO YOU SMELL WHAT BARACK IS COOKING?

I'm totally going with Obama. He seems like a nice guy.


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## Defiance (Aug 2, 2008)

The Teej said:
			
		

> DO YOU SMELL WHAT BARACK IS COOKING?
> 
> I'm totally going with Obama. He seems like a nice guy.



That's the thing.  He _seems_ like a nice guy.  But if you actually know what's going on, you might change your opinion...  Bush is a great President, it's the Congress fault he can't do anything you guys want...


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## XeonZ (Aug 2, 2008)

How is he a great president?  I hear he's a nice guy but that's it.  And he had a republican congress under him for what, 6 years?


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## Rugapand (Aug 2, 2008)

You guys are screwed either way,because of your oilwar in Iraq(also known as Nam 2:let's try to fuck up another nation) your country's defecit is sky high and no-tax Mcsrooge(Pres. Bush) isn't willing to raise taxes to fund anything and neither sides will probably change that...So yah good luck with picking a lesser evil(BTW obama probably is your only true hope for salvation)


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## Jockel (Aug 2, 2008)

Nin10doFan said:
			
		

> Bush is a great President


Doubt that. Highly.
@Sonicslasher: You make me angry. You are just short sighted and stupid.


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## CPhantom (Aug 2, 2008)

This is the election. 'Nuff now.


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## abaddon41_80 (Aug 2, 2008)

I am a Bush supporter but he is not a "great" president.  He is a decent president and the media makes him out to be much worse than he really is


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## Pizzaroo (Aug 2, 2008)

*post removed because everyone likes obama and I dont want this to start a flame war*


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 2, 2008)

Ok I posted once and figured that would be it but I've seen a lot of misinformation and stupid comments people are writing here as fact that really just isn't true.  I'm not going to refute the hell out of the stuff, but if you bothered to look farther than the evening news, foreign news, or disengenuous print media sources things would be ironed out quick.

1) The republican party and in particular McCain has NOT been playing the race card or fear of the black people card as certain public people are trying to make it appear like.  The first strike was Obama like it or not.  Weeks ago the man said some lines to the effect of 'they will try and scare you, they will say I'm a muslim, pick on my funny name...and on yah he is black too!'  What the hell in that is not playing a race card?  Just the other day he did it again except comparing it to powdered wig white dudes on the currency as a new direction.  It's very uncool as McCain has tried very hard NOT to have that crap played out by his campaign...If anything credit there has to be given even if you hate that vapid celebrity hit piece on Obama.

2) Universal healthcare works, to a point, but also it really is dependent on the entire system of taxation and management of the government, but also a huge factor is total population.  In a place like Canada or France where you have a sliver of the total bodies in the country you can manage it to a somewhat respectable level.  The US is over 300M people now, the level of taxation under the current system would break the back of the country, a massive overhaul of the system would need to take place, but also just with the population the level of tax would be insane to fund it.  Combine all that just with the general turn around time for free healthcare going into the weeks or worse depending on things, it's a bad idea.  What needs fixing is a massive overhaul of both the way the insurance industry handles claims, but also how both the doctors overcharge for services and how medical suppliers massively overprice their items for sale which snowballs through the doctors into your wallet.

3) McCain has more qualifications than being shot down and beaten for a few years in Vietnam.  Go check his war record, at least the highlights of it up on the Wikipedia.  You don't become a highly decorated Colonel in the armed forces being a punching bag to the enemy.

4) Only republicans are taking the 'low road' with politics.  That's crap.  Go check politico.com which pounce on both sides evenly and you'll see a sharply different image of how and what is doing it to whom.  Both sides play it dirty and damn well evenly enough.  Obama has done stuff, McCain has done stuff...neither is a patron saint.

5) *Prophet* Problem with socialism?  Not everyone deserves to have everything everyone has being 100% equal.  It doesn't work, it can't work, humanity on the whole wouldn't tolerate it.  A great way to put this let me see.  Say I give you $100 as a gift for doing me a huge favor.  Some guy comes up to me seeing me do that and bitches about it saying it's not fair because he can do it too or whatever else, and me being the good socialist wanting everything to be equal and free takes $50 from you and gives it to him despite the fact YOU worked for your $100 and now got 1/2 pay.  Do you think you'd feel screwed?  Yah it's a crude example, but everyone does a certain job in society, some make more, others make less but what you earn you earn, and it's not any governments right or task to say even though that guy sat on his butt for 1/2 a day and worked bagging groceries for the other half, and you who worked 8hrs in a factory should have the same benefits and pay to be socially fair.  It's crap.

6) Like it or not a solid energy plan is to run up the cost of gas over $4 and try and ram through solar, wind and water as the future that's hear now as it's not, and it's not viable to run much of anything in many corners of the country while it is in others.  A viable plan is all encompassing, you need to lease the land (not taxing but making $ off the companies) to go after oil.  While doing so, you can use this money either to finally strongly research 'new energy' and apply it, or use it toward another part of the country that is budgetarily suffering.

7) Bush Jr = McCain == BULLSHIT.  While they do agree on a few things, such as the 'surge' working, drilling on top of going after all new sources of energy, and some others, they more disagree than agree.  I can't list them all, it's a bitch but for starters go look at his record from the 1990s, and if you want recent try McCain-Feingold and McCain-Kennedy as a start.  Bush don't like working with dems, he also doesn't listen to people who have ideas...McCain does both and works with them at times too.


*Gamesphere* - If you consider yourself informed, up to date, and getting even news you're a lost cause.  NBC is the most left leaning tv media outlet of news and Olbermann tips the scales quite far to the left, not to insanity by any means but he's no centrist.  Seriously...if you have to watch that balance it out with the right leaning Fox, or screw both and go read the BBC and the AP News if you want something with opinion tossed out and facts thrown in.


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## Dack (Aug 2, 2008)

I believe it was "the now show" on Radio 4 that had Obama on the 'Bob The Builder' ticket - Can we fix it....yes we can! while McCain was on the "now why did I come in here again" ticket.


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## Sonicslasher (Aug 2, 2008)

@Vampire
I completely agree with you!


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 3, 2008)

My time in college was spent in political science for the full run with an emphasis on parties and politics, then sprinkled in some constitutional law, international politics and policy as well, and some political philosophy.  I tend to keep up, know how to sift out the bullshit, and know places I can go to get the minimal to no-spin answers when I want them.  Sadly in this day you have of the big 3 in cable news one leans moderately right (far if you count Hannity), CNN is moderately left, and NBC is far left.  The print media depending on what market you're in is mostly moderate to moderately left, few tilt right, some go nutbag left like the NY Times.  As far as the world news outlets, much just play off what gets pumped out from our markets to theirs so it's taken on face value coupled with the popular negative american stereotype the stupid population here on the whole arrogantly reinforces without any damn clue of it or care.  The AP news I know is a nice level headed bit, and the BBC ignores the spin and bothers with research thankfully, and Reuters doesn't get nut bagged out really either.

But, if you want level political commentary and news releases 365/7 use POLITICO.COM as they give it all over the whole spectrum and I haven't seen any covered agendas as even the opinion pieces have other editors who counter with theirs so you can get both sides.


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## Prophet (Aug 3, 2008)

Vampire Hunter D said:
			
		

> 5) *Prophet* Problem with socialism?  Not everyone deserves to have everything everyone has being 100% equal.  It doesn't work, it can't work, humanity on the whole wouldn't tolerate it.  A great way to put this let me see.  Say I give you $100 as a gift for doing me a huge favor.  Some guy comes up to me seeing me do that and bitches about it saying it's not fair because he can do it too or whatever else, and me being the good socialist wanting everything to be equal and free takes $50 from you and gives it to him despite the fact YOU worked for your $100 and now got 1/2 pay.  Do you think you'd feel screwed?  Yah it's a crude example, but everyone does a certain job in society, some make more, others make less *but what you earn you ear*n, and it's not any governments right or task to say even though that guy sat on his butt for 1/2 a day and worked bagging groceries for the other half, and you who worked 8hrs in a factory should have the same benefits and pay to be socially fair.  It's crap.



What you earn you earn? Is this the same capitalism that allows the privileged to live off of trust funds, never lifting a finger, while the less fortunate work them selves weary for minimum wage?

Your example and argument are as simplistic as they are flawed. You seem to believe that many people are lazy and they should starve for it rather than being coddled by the system. That is a point I grant you, however it isn't a point against socialism but rather a statement made against the ills of mankind as a whole. Socialism is the philosophy of equality in all things. EQUALITY in work-load as well. I often think of socialism as a function of higher evolution; a tier that mankind is not quite ready to ascend to. But the way you speak of it is as if we should not still aspire to reach it.

Furthermore, not only have you made a very clumsy attempt at explaining the ills of socialism (A system I fear you lack any insight into), but you seemingly sweep the flaws of capitalism under the rug. There is a facade to capitalism that few seem to be capable of piercing; a proverbial carrot on a stick. YOU CAN GET RICH HERE !!! RAGS TO RICHES!!! yada, yada. The truth is this: yes you can go from rags to riches, but you can also be born into your rags and die in them. You can be born into rags and face an insurmountable journey to riches, while some men are born with the world handed to them. Capitalism allows the exceptional and the lucky, to excel/maintain. But for the laymen, for the rank and file men and women of a capitalist nation there is no probable climb; for them they must resign them selves to the class they were born into. And this is the system you choose to endorse? A system that would see to it that the rich stay warm and the poor stay cold, with no care for fairness nor equality.

Gandhi once said, "There is a sufficiency in the world for man's need but not for man's greed." When I find people who seemingly foam at the mouth at the very mention of socialism, I attribute it to their greed getting the best of them. Your example plays right into this. Socialism is not about taking something from one person and giving it to someone else. It is about reclaiming, it is about redistributing, that which in all rights already belongs to the people. We are all American's and it is only just, that the America I live in is equal to the America you live in. I deserve a place to rest my head at night, independent of my social and financial standings. I deserve to not die of illness, because my parents are living check to check. When a child is born it should not feel as though it is some twisted lottery. Birth should not be a race, where those fortunate enough to be born into middle class start closer to the finish line. 

I argue this: Capitalism is only appealing to those who she has seen fit to bless. Come take a walk through the projects with me, tell me what has capitalism done for them.


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 3, 2008)

Your socialist utopian insanity is about as flawed as my intentionally overly basic swipe at the unfairness of socialism in society.  I'm not privledged, I don't make 50K a year, but I don't feel entitled to all the crap someone making 100k+ a year does.  They do their purpose in life and earn a pay commensurate with what they do, and what I do in life gets me the pay that I earn.

I don't need your 'projects' crap excuses either.  I've had to deal with unemployment and it drying up, selling off large amounts of what little property I have, sucking up to get cash from family for what I could, extending loans/taking out lines of credit, and not making ends meet for a few years.  Just in the last 2 years I've mostly dug that pit full of dirt but still have a ways to go.  No, I don't like someone else can drive around in some 4MPG Hummer and not give a fuck, but I don't feel that I should be entitled to every damn thing that person has either.

I understand the concept that socialism is a form of equality.  I don't agree that capitalism allows those who already have to be graced for life into such a level of well being.  One well sized bad decision, one stupid comment the press will eat up, one financial blunder and they'll be brown bagging $2 wine with a screw top just as much as some screw top wine drinking bum could find a way to get away from that and get a job and a new start.  Either way it's hard to blow and hard to bounce away from it, but it can be done.  I have zero respect for someone who is disadvantaged who just pisses and whines the world isn't fair and they deserve this, that, and the other thing just as much as I hate some entitled feeling rich piece of crap brat who has an inheritance coming so it never likely will matter for their snobbish piece of crap existence what the little people do.

What you see in socialism as reclaiming is just a fancy word for what you're saying people piss you off with, which is them saying stealing.  Stealing, reclaiming...at the root they're just the same form of redistribution of wealth.  The thing is, the concept of stealing and reclaiming are taking some basic need or tangible from someone who has it away, and giving it to someone else who hasn't to make things more fair...more socially right...equality as you said.  I never said someone deserves to die and rot in a pit of they can't take care of themselves, but what I am saying is that to make sure someone doesn't drop and rot you don't take such vast amounts way at exponential levels depending on how much more you make as that's just insane.


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## Prophet (Aug 3, 2008)

Vampire Hunter D said:
			
		

> Your socialist utopian insanity is about as flawed as my *intentionally* overly basic swipe at the unfairness of socialism in society.
> Intentionally? Do you fear complexity?
> 
> 
> ...


You have just jumped the shark my friend. Stealing and reclaiming are not the same, in anyway. Here let me get the old dictionary:

Steal: to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force.

Reclaim:  To claim back; to demand the return of as a right; to attempt to recover possession of.

Your idea of Socialism seems to resemble a Robin Hood justification; stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. This is almost right, but where you see Robin Hood as “stealing” I see him as “reclaiming” gold for the unfairly taxed. 

This is Socialism. Every man is born with inalienable and innate liberties, most chiefly: A share of the earth. Every person, owns a piece of this world and we are within our rights to choose not to share our piece. That is fine, but we must consider this: if our ancestors had done that what would have ever been accomplished? Civilization has flourished because men have decidedly come together and pooled their resources, in hopes of building together that which they could never erect alone. This is the basis of civilization; the idea that we fare better in mass then we do alone. What we have today is the very product of this archaic pact made by our ancestors; a pact that we have sadly abandoned. The thrones that were built by the toil of the many are now occupied by the few. When a man is born today, he is born with the same rights that he would have received at the dawn of civilization: a share of the earth, a share of it's wealth, a share of it's tragedies, a share of its wonders. No one should be allowed to monopolize the fruits of civilization, because “civilization” is an endeavor that we all have a stake in, an endeavor that some of us have given blood for and some have given sweat to and some have done little for and some have done much for, but all have done their best by. Yes, this is the greatest tenant of socialism, it's success hinges on all of us doing our best and I believe this is where me and you begin to  drift apart. Because you believe some men are innately lazy, happy to reap the rewards of another man's toil. And in our society, this does exist. In fact it runs rampant. But the error you make is in assuming that it is the men that are corrupt rather than the system. I don't believe myself to be naive, nor optimistic but I have faith in the spirit of man. I have faith that if food is provided, if basic luxuries are given, if happiness is not stifled... if men are not pitted against one another fighting for status/wealth/survival, then I believe that instinctively we will share the burden fairly. We will carry our weight and rejoice at how surprisingly light the burden is. In a true socialist state, (which the world has yet to see) I believe that men will continue to do that which is in the best interest of self and I believe what is best for self will simultaneously be what is best for the group and the nation.


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## Apex (Aug 3, 2008)

abaddon41_80 said:
			
		

> I am a Bush supporter but he is not a "great" president.  He is a decent president and the media makes him out to be much worse than he really is



So you know him personally?

The media works with what it's given.


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## solange82200 (Aug 3, 2008)

Ugh, I'm shocked at all the nasty conservatives on here. Yuck.

Anyway, I agree Obama isn't the most experienced candidate, but I would rather vote for Sonic the Hedgehog as president rather than have a Rethuglican in power again. They disgust me beyond belief. A bunch of redneck warmongers. Have you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly? That basically sums up what the majority of Republicans think. What a bunch of evil fucktards. And no, I do not want the US to be a socialist country. I do not want Universal Healthcare. But you know what I want less? A fucking worthless WAR that is costing us 12 BILLION DOLLARS per MONTH. For what??? What do WE get out of it? What do I get out of it????? Most of Iraq doesnt even want our help. Bush IS the worst president ever, I am repulsed at the idiots who voted for him. Maybe that is why Bush hasn't bothered hunting down Osama Bin Laden, because he knows he owes him one. If 9/11 wouldnt have happened, he wouldn't have been able to get elected again using his fearmonger tactics.

Oh, and I would like to know what you republicans think of Dick Cheney's little bullshit answer when asked what he thinks about the majority of American's disapproving of the Iraq war. Remember, when he said "So?"? You people are proud of that? You have a vice president representing you who doesn't even care what you think? Yeah, that's real fucking American!


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## DarkAura (Aug 3, 2008)

I swore I posted here....  Where did mah post go?

Oops, I mixed up this topic with another.  They sound similar to me.  Merge?


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## solange82200 (Aug 3, 2008)

Vampire Hunter, McCain himself isnt stupid enough to play the race/muslim card, but have you heard any of the Republican talk show hosts or tv show hosts? They make a point of referring to him as Barrack HUSSEIN Obama, meanwhile never using any other candidate's middle name, they talk nonstop about the fact that he must be like Jeremiah Wright, insinuating that he hates white people. They more or less call Michelle Obama a militant, all because of the "For the first time in my adult life I'm really proud of my country" comment, which even LAURA BUSH took her side on, saying that it didn't come out the way it was intended to. All the people that Republicans look up to (Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.) ALL do the exact same things that Obama is saying they do. They take everything he says or does and miscontrues it, meanwhile giving McCain a free pass. They love to talk about Michelle Obama's verbal slip, but you never hear them mention how Cindy McCain was a drug addict who stole from her own charity. So seriously, I dont see how you can say that Obama is lying when he says that "they" do those things. It's a fact


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## SylvWolf (Aug 3, 2008)

Vampire Hunter D is the most intelligent person in here. I was going to make a few posts similar to yours, but I think you summed up almost everything I had to say nicely.

Oh, and on communism. It just doesn't work. It kinda seems good on paper, but name me one time when it has truly succeeded. There's always political corruption, and there's always a group of people doing better than the common people. The only way for communism to have a hope of working is if the leaders can be equal to the subjects, and it is against human nature to do that. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Honestly, it would take a George Washington, and people just aren't like that anymore. In communism, EVERYONE has to be equal, and that is why it will always fail - people, for all they say, like to be better than others.

And I support McCain. He may not be the best candidate and I certainly would've rather seen a different Republican, but I just can't see Obama doing a good job as president. Raising taxes at this stage of the game would completely destroy the US economy. It's doing bad now but wait until taxes are raised... And the war in Iraq, no matter if you agree with it or not, has to be finished right. If we pulled out now, the situation would fall apart and violence would shoot right back up. What would the last 5 years mean if that were to happen? Again, McCain is surely not the best candidate for president but he's the best we got right now.

Might as well tackle Bush. He hasn't been the greatest president, nor has he really been a good one. He's been an average to below average president. And he's not responsible for much else besides the war in Iraq. The gas prices, economy, and housing crisis are all out of his control. I don't know what you people think he can do about that. He seems like an idiot, but I still think that's just an act. And he's definitely not the worst president ever. There have been much worse. Buchanan anybody? Seven seceded states and no action? Look it up sometime.

Go America. Peace out.


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## ca82686 (Aug 3, 2008)

this thread is still going on?  wow, an actual bush supporter, are you one of the 10% of people who still support him?  i feel like I'm meeting a celebrity, may I have your autograph?  Anyways, how will making the bush tax cuts, which have crippled our economy as it is, permanent help any more than raising taxes?  Say what you will, but theres one things the democrats can do most of the time, and that is balance the budget.  I'm sure some political scientists will site examples from wikipedia refuting this, but, its true.  There is no evidence that if we pulled out now that everything would fall apart, the leader of iraq agreed that we need some sort of scaled back withdrawl of troops, thats what is crippling our economy, a war that was made because saddam tried to kill bush's daddy, and to finish what he started.  

Also reagan wasn't the greatest president, he wasn't even close, why does everyone keep insisting he is a hero?  Anyways, if you support McCain, you support the downfall of the United states of America, and 100 years in iraq, and most likely a war with iran as well, as he so cheerfully sung "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran".  So way to go.  With Obama we at least have a chance at having a decent president and a chance at restoring our place at home and abroad as the land of opportunity and not a war mongering police state.  With McCain the chances are 0, and we'll just have business as usual, and a 3rd term for bush, or perhaps even worse.


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## Heran Bago (Aug 3, 2008)

Valkrys said:
			
		

> He may not be the best candidate and I certainly would've rather seen a different Republican, but I just can't see Obama doing a good job as president. Raising taxes at this stage of the game would completely destroy the US economy. It's doing bad now but wait until taxes are raised... And the war in Iraq, no matter if you agree with it or not, has to be finished right.



Yes because continually lowering taxes on the rich and blowing money we don't even have on another pointless war can only help the economy. It worked these last several years. Historically, war does stimulate the economy, but recent examples like the Korean war and this thing show you have to go about it the right way or it just doesn't work.

What the American economy needs is a real Republican. We haven't seen one of those in like 20 years and I don't think we'll see another one in quite some time, if ever. The republican party, as a political party, has gone to shit.

Obama would at least help our global image. I'm not crazy about either candidate really...


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## ca82686 (Aug 3, 2008)

yeah, the republicans were at least a bit more respectable when they actually stood for things and had ideals and ideas and such, but as of recent they turned into a religious cult, thinking that women have no rights to do anything other than make babies so they can grow up to be dead soldiers,  stoning gay people for being different, and war mongers, slinging more hate speak into a debate that it would make a muslim extremist blush.  They reject science like stem cells, which could potentially cure every disease known to man, and are holding us back as a species.


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## aslacker55 (Aug 3, 2008)

ca82686 said:
			
		

> yeah, the republicans were at least a bit more respectable when they actually stood for things and had ideals and ideas and such, but as of recent they turned into a religious cult, thinking that women have no rights to do anything other than make babies so they can grow up to be dead soldiers,  stoning gay people for being different, and war mongers, slinging more hate speak into a debate that it would make a muslim extremist blush.  They reject science like stem cells, which could potentially cure every disease known to man, and are holding us back as a species.



I'm a Republican, served in the army, yes I'm religious, I'm also anti-abortionist, I don't believe in same sex marriage, my stand point on fetal stem cells is obvious (anti-abortionist), and I support my Commander in Chief's decision. 

Does that mean that I'm holding back my species or I'm in a cult? Or may be you just don't like us and our way of thinking.


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## ca82686 (Aug 3, 2008)

yup, because your blind faith and patriotism prevent you from obtaining anything more that could be offered for the good of humanity from doing things such as stem cells.  But i do respect that you served our country and what it used to stand for, and the freedoms we used to have, back when we actually had things like that.


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## aslacker55 (Aug 3, 2008)

ca82686 said:
			
		

> yup, because your blind faith and patriotism prevent you from obtaining anything more that could be offered for the good of humanity from doing things such as stem cells.  But i do respect that you served our country and what it used to stand for, and the freedoms we used to have, back when we actually had things like that.



I'm proud of my country and if they need me, I would be there. Also, I work as a Registered Nurse for City of Hope (Cancer Research Hospital). Stem Cell research are mostly for people that have brain or spinal cord injuries or disease.  At the hospital, we hardly talk about stem cells research. It's not that big of deal, outside of politics.


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## ca82686 (Aug 3, 2008)

Yeah, this is one of the best places in the world to be if not the best, because of people who fought for it like you.  Stem cells aren't that big a deal because the president wont even let funding be done for them, it has the potential to be the cure all end all of medicine, but without funding and testing we will never know.


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## aslacker55 (Aug 3, 2008)

ca82686 said:
			
		

> Yeah, this is one of the best places in the world to be if not the best, because of people who fought for it like you.  Stem cells aren't that big a deal because the president wont even let funding be done for them, it has the potential to be the cure all end all of medicine, but without funding and testing we will never know.



There are actually research being done on mature stem cells. The problem with stem cell research funding, is the fetal stem cells. The fetal stem cells are the one's that can differentiate to any type of cells, mature stem cells are limited in what they can be turned into. The only way to get fetal stem cells are from unborn fetuses, mostly from aborted babies. Republican are mostly anti-abortionist, they will never fund something that promotes abortions. That's what they believe in, I do hope that they find a way to get fetal stem cells without the need of dead fetuses.


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## ca82686 (Aug 3, 2008)

yes, those are the stem cells i was talking about, the embryonic ones, and there are frozen embryos that are going to be tossed out and/or destroyed anyways, so toss them into the garbage, or potentially cure every disease known to man, tough choice =P


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## XeonZ (Aug 3, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> And I support McCain. He may not be the best candidate and I certainly would've rather seen a different Republican, but I just can't see Obama doing a good job as president. Raising taxes at this stage of the game would completely destroy the US economy. It's doing bad now but wait until taxes are raised... And the war in Iraq, no matter if you agree with it or not, has to be finished right. If we pulled out now, the situation would fall apart and violence would shoot right back up. What would the last 5 years mean if that were to happen? Again, McCain is surely not the best candidate for president but he's the best we got right now.
> 
> Obama actually intends to give working class families tax cuts, not raise their taxes.  The only class he'll tax more is the upper class of people, which I'm not in agreement that even that should be done as I don't think they deserve it.
> 
> QUOTEMight as well tackle Bush. He hasn't been the greatest president, nor has he really been a good one. He's been an average to below average president. And he's not responsible for much else besides the war in Iraq. The gas prices, economy, and housing crisis are all out of his control. I don't know what you people think he can do about that. He seems like an idiot, but I still think that's just an act. And he's definitely not the worst president ever. There have been much worse. Buchanan anybody? Seven seceded states and no action? Look it up sometime.



Yeah I'd call him a mediocre president myself.  Though the way the government, Bush included, is deficit spending is a little unsettling.  Though the economy isn't his fault I don't think he's tried hard to improve it either.


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## abaddon41_80 (Aug 3, 2008)

Apex said:
			
		

> abaddon41_80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Obama and his wife brought those things down upon themselves.  If Obama really didn't want people thinking he hated white people maybe he shouldn't have stayed at a church where the pastor seemed racist for 20 years.  Maybe his wife shouldn't have openly said that she will try and help black people more than white people.  All people are doing is bringing those things up for people to be educated.  That is not nearly as bad as the hundreds and hundreds of television shows and publications making fun of every republican every chance they get

BTW, some of you are stereotyping republicans.  I am an atheist, pro-choice, stem-cell research supporting, and pretty peaceful republican.  I don't mind homosexual marriage and I am certainly not racist.  If you ever meant me you would probably think I was a democrat.


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## nIxx (Aug 3, 2008)

Hi i´m from germany and i like Obama 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 and after what McCain said the last weeks i think McCain "could" be the next Bush and Bush really failed with lot of things not only the war in iraq and afghanistan (in my opinion). And to the taxes without the taxes the mountain of debts will rise and rise 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .

But a really good thing is that before this election i never saw so many teenagers interested in politics but now with Obama much more teenager concerned with political matters.


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 3, 2008)

_Solange_ Yes I'm quite aware with the retarded crap that comes out of the mouths of conservative talk radio show hosts and since they by far get the most air time since liberal talk keeps taking the tank I can see how it would seem one sided, but they pull the same lies and slander too on their targets.  Thing is, talk show hosts don't run the nation.  While they do spout off some crap they do at least bring up some concerns as well.  I don't fall into that crap completely, but even if they harp on it I think there is some level of a valid concern if you're going to have a guy representing a country who went to church with and followed the sermons as gospel from a guy who spouts off some crazy stuff, and I'm not fool enough to think the only times ever were those on tape.  I think picking on his wife is a bit extreme, and perhaps her views have changes, but that thesis she did for college was fairly disgusting and a real warped version of reality in part.  Yes those people like Hannity will give McCain a pass while tearing into Obama, but on the flip side you have the 3 national broadcast networks and 2 cable news channels who blast McCain much harder than Obama and tear into every little thing too, mind you due to tv in a typically more presentable fashion outside the opinion hour shows like Olbermann has so it's really a fair game or at best left leaning favored as more to tv and newspapers than talk radio.

I really can't argue with our admin buddy there Heran either.  More or less the base of the Republican party still exists, but that base is now a minority crowded out by 'new' republicans which I'd dare say lean more away from moderate into slightly left in how they want to handle things.  I think they've learned that moderates and democrats (or just hte D party alone) have a higher body count so instead of sticking to principle they're pandering.  I agree that Obama at this hour would improve our standing in the eyes of the world on a social level and for appearances, but in practice he's got a lot of plans that'll do more damage than good with the way things are right now.  Heran is right, you need a real by the original 20yo book Republican and McCain while he's not that he at least has some brains to know on some policies and things he'd have to be so that least that's something.  McCain is your moderate and at some points liberal republican, weird combo, but he on other points is very classic republican conservative too so he's an unpredictable mixed bag.  The sick thing right now is it's 1 on 1, and they'll say whatever to get a vote, but track record and standing voting record is where you need to look, and comparing the two you'll see McCain would be better right now for fixing things up a bit.

_Xeon_ he would like you to think that way but you need to realize his talk is very self centered and doesn't take reality into the bigger picture.  Obama as it stands wants to keep the Bush tax cuts except for those making over $200K a year which on the surface seems great.  But, he's got quirks.  Are you aware he wants to up the Capital Gains tax from 15% to 20-28%?  While this appears like it would hosing the rich the most, we're now living in the land of e-trade.com and the land of 401ks based on corporate stock.  Now who perhaps uses e-trade and 401ks the most?  Those under the 200K level, many people who bank 50K a year in their home (mine combined pre-tax is 60k) buy stocks as investments and their 401ks are nestled in it.  His tax plan makes NO previsions for that type of person, it basically punishes anyone dealing with stock.  Would it be fair to harm someone who retires making 50K a year by taking away 28% of their 401 retirement fun when the stock is cashed out, or to 'care for the non-rich' to hit them with 28%?  Also another factor all said and done, the rich...they employ you, they run the businesses that create jobs, and as such set prices.  Do you really think if we raise their taxes to pre-Bush tax cuts (which Obama wants) and combined with the Capital Gains tax hike they won't pass that shit off onto YOU?  They'll want to keep making their same profits, so they'll raise the costs on food, goods, services, utilities, fuel, oil, etc.  In essence YOU will be paying the tax increase without supposedly getting one.  They can't legally stop them from raises costs, so you'll get jacked.

Oh and I dunno if I ever covered it on McCain, but in relation to the wars going on he's no Bush and I hate the tv/print media shovel that crap and take sentences as bylines out of paragraphs to do so.  He's no fan of Iraq, he wants the gov't there to get their shit together and take over.  He's no fan of a timetable, any sane person shouldn't be.  After this long if you just say June 09 we're home, it'll just keep the enemy in waiting to deal with it later and who loses but us in lives and billions making it all pointless.  McCain knows like Obama the fight is in Afghanistan, he just won't cut n' run until it's fixed and I can't blame him for that.  Bush though isn't that way, he'd stay there for as long as it takes or until removed with force by the locals.  Bush wants to keep a hold on the land there as a breaking point into other troublemakers back yard, to protect oil, and to see if we can get a cut of that action (mind you I think perhaps those iraqis should be paying us in oil or something with what they're raking in now with it around $4/gallon.)


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## Prophet (Aug 3, 2008)

Valkrys said:
			
		

> Oh, and on communism. It just doesn't work. It kinda seems good on paper, but name me one time when it has truly succeeded. There's always political corruption, and there's always a group of people doing better than the common people. The only way for communism to have a hope of working is if the leaders can be equal to the subjects, and it is against human nature to do that. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Honestly, it would take a George Washington, and people just aren't like that anymore. In communism, EVERYONE has to be equal, and that is why it will always fail - people, for all they say, like to be better than others.



I agree with you completely; men are corrupt and they will inevitably create systems that are corrupt. But this is not reason enough not to pursue true socialism, untwisted and skewed as communism. There was a time when people laid similar claims at the feet of democracy and to a degree they were right. We don't shoulder the burden of democracy well either, just look at the amount of people who don't even vote. All I'm saying is this: every step we take toward socialism is a step taken toward mankind's logical betterment. I am not saying tomorrow we revamp the system, or destroy and rebuild. But we can transform the system over time. Our children's children could inherit a world of equality. The system is not perfect, but in slowly adopting it we can vow to pursue it's perfection. Just as we have done with amendments, just as we have done with civil rights; we must suffer the discomfort of change so that tomorrow might be brighter than today. 

Are you truley content, to freeze america? As a system, would you be content to see it stay as it is right at this moment?


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## Wolfsclaw (Aug 3, 2008)

@Prophet: But how is that going to happen with your two-party "democratic" system and all the neo-conservatism in your country? I'd hope for a stronger Green and a stronger Democratic Socialism party but these have always been minor parties and it doesn't seem like they will be gaining strength soon, does it? 

"Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice and Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality."
-- Mikhail Alexandrovich Bakunin

@Valkrys: 
"It kinda seems good on paper, but name me one time when it has truly succeeded."

Cuba. Of course it has its flaws - namely unfair dealing with oppositional people, one-party system, partly unfair payment, human rights abuses, censorship, no real freedom of speech etc. - but in my opinion food and water for everyone on the island (compare it to its neighbours like Haiti or Jamaica!), 0% illiteracy rate, very high standard in education and the world's best health care system is something that is worth it. Yes, the people are in western standards poor, but they are all equally poor and they still have enough for living a long and mostly healthy and happy life. I don't think that's guaranteed when you live in the USA which is the richest country in the world.

Also, not every theory of communism had been put in practice as of today. There had been no Trotskyist state (that is: a trotskyist ruling party) as far as i know. There had been no only-Marxist state which would have required a revolution from the workers themselves, not from a party and not centralistic (like Marxism-Leninism). Things like Stalinism or heavy suppression by state destroyed what could have been done too many times. Plus, some states name themself communist, when they are actually not. Examples are China, Libya, North Korea, Vietnam or Bangladesh.


Also, just by the way, like communism (or better: socialism), anarchism also seems to be something that is not taken seriously in many people's eyes.
Everyone who sees it like that - i recommend this nice wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution


			
				QUOTE said:
			
		

> George Orwell describes a scene in Aragon during this time period in his book Homage to Catalonia. [1]
> 
> "I had dropped more or less by chance into the only community of any size in Western Europe where political consciousness and disbelief in capitalism were more normal than their opposites. Up here in Aragon one was among tens of thousands of people, mainly though not entirely of working-class origin, all living at the same level and mingling on terms of equality. In theory it was perfect equality, and even in practice it was not far from it. There is a sense in which it would be true to say that one was experiencing a foretaste of Socialism, by which I mean that the prevailing mental atmosphere was that of Socialism. Many of the normal motives of civilized life--snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.--had simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society had disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England; there was no one there except the peasants and ourselves, and no one owned anyone else as his master."



Who knows, maybe in a hundred or in a thousand years, anarchism will be considered more worthy for the world than a republic. We're always part of a progress.


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## saxamo (Aug 3, 2008)

By January 2009, when the next president takes office, it will be obvious that we are in a Greater Depression. Millions of Americans will be angry, desperate and uncomfortably awakened and confused. People (have already, and) will be losing their homes, their incomes, their ability to buy food and fuel and health care. And giant predators, from banks and corporations to foreign property owners to Blackwater, will be trying to exploit the crisis for selfish gain.

Now let's say that you are part of some organized movement that's technically against the law. Maybe a few hundred people have occupied an abandoned suburb and you are tearing down houses and making gardens. Or some farmers are refusing to leave land that the banks claim to own. Or the people in one poor neighborhood have run out of food, and they march to the Whole Foods in a rich neighborhood and take what they need. Or half a million people march to protest the Iraq war, and because they don't have jobs or health insurance to lose, they don't go home, but occupy the center of a major city for days.

Now, what would President McCain do? He would send in the fucking military and smoke your ass, and if you weren't killed, you would be shipped to a "detention facility," and never heard from again.

What would President Obama do? I could be wrong, but I think he would go in person and listen to you, ask you what you needed and how he could help. Then he would go back to the big money people, and explain your position to them, and ask them what they needed. Then he would work out a compromise, and he would go on TV and explain the whole situation and how he resolved it and why. Nobody would be completely happy, but we would avoid a big disaster and gain in understanding.

Barack Obama's candidacy is the kind of opportunity that only comes along once or twice a century. He has honesty, courage, intelligence, charisma, and great political instincts, but most important, he shows a willingness and ability to channel bottom-up energy, to challenge the people to act, and to serve as a focus for public passion, where McCain would go in the back room and flush it down the toilet. When you look on the level of human spirit, Obama represents our only chance to renew America without passing through really horrific violence.

However, we can't just sit back and expect him to take care of us. That's the kind of thinking that ruined America in the first place. We're going to have to organize boycotts and strikes and local currencies and secession movements and illegal mutual aid networks and mass physical actions that are tactical and not merely symbolic. We'll have one, or four, or maybe eight years with Obama in office, and we should think of him not as a leader but as a weapon, a lever big enough to move the country. In the last hours before the French Revolution, the lawmakers relented and passed a bunch of huge reforms, but by the time anyone found out, it was too late, they were already burning the palaces.


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## Prophet (Aug 3, 2008)

Wolfsclaw said:
			
		

> @Prophet: But how is that going to happen with your two-party "democratic" system and all the neo-conservatism in your country? I'd hope for a stronger Green and a stronger Democratic Socialism party but these have always been minor parties and it doesn't seem like they will be gaining strength soon, does it?
> 
> "Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice and Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality."
> -- Mikhail Alexandrovich Bakunin
> ...



Great post. To be perfectly honest, I doubt that socialism or anarchism for that matter, will be reached without first seeing the world in ruin. But I maintain that universal health care would be a step (no matter how tiny) in the right direction of transforming our own system into something more socialistic. It's sad but it will probably take a war of measures the world has never seen to usher in any significant change in ruling methodology. And even then old habits die hard. Men much like history, often repeat themselves. None the less, it is still important that we aspire to be better as men and neighbors. Because I believe the fruition of man's collective and purest aspirations would be something very similar to socialism.


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## Wolfsclaw (Aug 4, 2008)

saxamo said:
			
		

> By January 2009, when the next president takes office, it will be obvious that we are in a Greater Depression. Millions of Americans will be angry, desperate and uncomfortably awakened and confused. People (have already, and) will be losing their homes, their incomes, their ability to buy food and fuel and health care. And giant predators, from banks and corporations to foreign property owners to Blackwater, will be trying to exploit the crisis for selfish gain.
> 
> How angry are the people now? I thought the economical depression was already happening and - correct me if i'm wrong - i haven't heard much of direct action being taken against it. That probably is because i'm watching from overseas and i don't have a first person perspective. But as of now it seems to me most people deal with it one way or another. I doubt that the reactions will actually worsen that much by January 2009.
> 
> ...



I don't mean to bitch, but Louis XVI was active until he was taken prisoner in 1792 =P which means that from 1789-1793 france was a constitutional monarchy. But that's just on a sidenote  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Oh and no palaces were burning.... okay, I'm stopping it.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Oh, and sorry for the long post. Plus i was using too many quotes so I had to put some into " marks. I hope it don't matter.


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## OrcMonkey© (Aug 4, 2008)

mccain is same as bush


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 4, 2008)

Saxamo it saddens me Americans like you think such ways about both the candidates as you're well off the mark, but if that's what you were fed or somehow by some rational thought came to on your own I'd ask you to go back and search for some facts as your opinion on both candidates would shift some.  McCain considering his bad time back in the war would be the least likely to stick people within some detention/torture camp if people didn't agree with him.  And Obama may act like he is a listener, but he's a bit hard of hearing and not that big of a compromiser as he's laid out what he wants to do and how he'll do it, and telling 'rich people' what others want and then hearing their side and meeting half way ain't going to happen.

Both of them are fairly set in their ways, compromise to a point is possible, but it gets really tiring hearing such uninformed crap get spewed about both of them from blind fanboy fanatics from both camps trying to scare people into joining theirs instead of the other.  Let the FACTS set you free.


...and kirby if mccain = bush, then obama = castro (without the suppression and violence.)  Get your head out of the sand man.


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## Devante (Aug 4, 2008)

Do any of you really think it matters who the president is?

It's not the president that makes any difference.
It's the people that make the president and make the congress and make the etc.  who they are.

Why is this thread 3 pages long? It doesn't matter who the president is. ha.

Zombies.

Don't worry, me too.


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 4, 2008)

Actually the President does make a difference if the congress is of the same train of thought and party as they'll shovel any kind of crap damning the consequences through short of having a judicial bitchslapping by the supreme court.  The best run government is a mix of ideas (one party in executive and the other in the legislative) because if you want anything done you have to work togther, and if you piss away your 2-6 years doing crap the people will see your ass to the door.  All that stuff right now Obama is preaching whether good or obtusely bad considering the congress will get drafted and likely with little meddling or considering the consequences will get passed.


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## Lametta (Aug 6, 2008)

I'd go for Obama but Im not american and can't vote... McCan seems to me another bush all war and useless evil military things.


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 6, 2008)

Well considering you're that badly informed I'm glad you're in Italy.


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## saxamo (Aug 8, 2008)

First off, don't blow me off as some romanticizing kid caught in the hype. I read up on this stuff, and have done my homework as you'll see. I took a bit of liberty in my last post. It was a _Scenario._ Do you think I believe much of that will physically take place? I was hoping at least some of you would get it. I see my error now, though. I don't think you personally would even come close to understanding because an overall glance shows me that you're not the type to have been involved with any organized, progressive, or (less likely) radical activism.

Personally, neither candidate is ideal. The one who comes closest to mainstream America on the issues is Kucinich, but he's not perfect either. American politics is like an abusive relationship. The system, as it stands right now is ineffective and close-minded. But...I'm in the "do everything you can" boat, and in this case that would be voting for Obama. 

I don't really understand your beef with Obama. What, do you not trust him? Think he's some kind of fake? I will agree that now that he's gotten the nomination, he's gone not to the center, but in some ways to the right (telecom immunity, guns, etc.) but his campaign message is still clear. He really is behind all those power words he utilizes: Hope, Change, Grassroots mobilization. I mean, people are even calling him a peace hero. This is a regular guy we are talking about. Not some "holier-than-thou" sleazeball politician.

And don't go on that inexperience argument, cause it's bullshit. He's been a senator long enough...He is plenty experienced. 

I don't have much to give on McCain, except his lies. I don't know where you get this idea that he will in some ways be better than Bush
Have you even seen his latest Ad? If you're remotely familiar with the concept of the Antichrist, it has all the subtlety of a Superbowl halftime show, with only a brief awkward bit at the end to pretend the ad is really about Obama's inexperience. I mean, do I have to say anything more?

And above anything else, He's crazy.






There isn't really much else to say. We're of drastically different mindsets, so I don't expect us to agree. I'm just merely stating what I believe in a more FACTUAL manner. Obama will come out ahead in the fall, and I hope it improves your life in some way as well.


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## GeekyGuy (Aug 8, 2008)

They should put the two dudes in a cell together, each with a spiked baseball bat in hand. Whomever comes out alive should win. With that kind of fight, my money would be on McCain. But I don't wish for either of these guys to be running the country. The only person I felt would ever have made a decent president, aside from George Washington, was Jerry Garcia, but he's dead (no pun intended).


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## SonicFan49 (Aug 8, 2008)

Obama, hands down.


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## Defiance (Aug 8, 2008)

When McCain wins, I'm going to quote this post and say: 'Told you so.'


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## VmprHntrD (Aug 8, 2008)

Saxamo no I'm not into anarchist and extremist things that's for sure, and also I think Kucinich is a bit out there, but not rotten either.  I actually am lost somewhere between feeling pity and laughter between your unprovable kind of twisted and nonsensical view of McCain.  Time and again every election in many countries you find the people who want to tag X politician as the anti-christ, and time again it's just a crap red herring to use that laughably fails time and again.

I don't personally dislike or hate Obama, but I don't like about him isn't him, it's his way he ran the campaign and how he presented it.  When it was him and Hil at it, it was all about HOPE, CHANGE, SOMETHING NEW...but when pressed he wouldn't give much of a straight answer on most topics, and would just kind of parrot her when needed with having very little difference known.  Once he bags the thing, then suddenly this entire new set of principles, ideas, stump speeches, and various broken promises all start to come out into the open.  That, that there is what I have a problem with.  He hoaxered his way into the nomination playing off the anger of the masses in the youth vote and the DNC at large making promises of change, a better life, new things and then changes the rules.  Hell if you want to stick with your antichrist's coming argument, that fits.  For he who is the anti-Christ (if I'm remembering this right) will come upon the world as a relative unknown, be the most friendly, give great promises, rouse the masses, appeal to the world, and once he has people in his grasp and control...WHAM.  I don't believe in that bunk mind you, but I don't ignore such arguments either and so far of the two he fits better whereas McCain is the same McSame maverick dude who has been at it for a quarter century in the house and senate.  He doesn't play the nice guy then go 666, he just listens, does what HE thinks is best, not what either party wants, and it has worked well so far.


Oh by the way I saw you linked up the Daily KOS, and I'm not sure if you care or are aware, but they are the #1 location next to MoveOn.org that lie, spin, create fake news, and twist reality for the more militant and angry extreme end of the left in this country.  I can't take news from any site that would say for a recent example would make a post over Tony Snow's death in which it was nothing but laughing at his pain and death, wishing it was more worse in hell, wanting to brutalize the corpse, and so on.  That site is NOT balanced nor are the tools that post there.  Please be smart, don't go back, read politico.com to get all the straight news pro/con on both of the candidates and US politics in general.

Look I've said my piece at least as far as you're concerned and I've shown another way to look at things, and also have given you fair warning about the high level of anger, hatred, and disinformation of dailykos.  It's up to you to keep listening to stories or to start listening to facts.  I could give a damn who you vote for, but at least do it because you had REAL info, not that kos crap, that not made by mccain anti-christ obama clip, or that other one calling McCain so called insane as it's all easily debunked.


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## saxamo (Aug 9, 2008)

Politico ain't perfect, either. But you'll find juicy stuff behind every news outlet, I guess. 

All we can say now is let the best man win.


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## RebelX (Aug 10, 2008)

I was hesitant to make a thread like this, I guess you had the balls to do it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Me, im for Obama. Period.


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## saxamo (Nov 5, 2008)

Hate to bring back a dead topic but, told you so!


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## BlueStar (Nov 5, 2008)

Nin10doFan said:
			
		

> When McCain wins, I'm going to quote this post and say: 'Told you so.'



Go on then.


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## Defiance (Nov 5, 2008)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> Nin10doFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hoping you guys would forget that!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



It'll be funny when he screws shit up.


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## cosmo2389 (Nov 5, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Saxamo no I'm not into anarchist and extremist things that's for sure, and also I think Kucinich is a bit out there, but not rotten either. I actually am lost somewhere between feeling pity and laughter between your unprovable kind of twisted and nonsensical view of McCain. Time and again every election in many countries you find the people who want to tag X politician as the anti-christ, and time again it's just a crap red herring to use that laughably fails time and again.
> 
> I don't personally dislike or hate Obama, but I don't like about him isn't him, it's his way he ran the campaign and how he presented it. When it was him and Hil at it, it was all about HOPE, CHANGE, SOMETHING NEW...but when pressed he wouldn't give much of a straight answer on most topics, and would just kind of parrot her when needed with having very little difference known. Once he bags the thing, then suddenly this entire new set of principles, ideas, stump speeches, and various broken promises all start to come out into the open. That, that there is what I have a problem with. He hoaxered his way into the nomination playing off the anger of the masses in the youth vote and the DNC at large making promises of change, a better life, new things and then changes the rules. Hell if you want to stick with your antichrist's coming argument, that fits. For he who is the anti-Christ (if I'm remembering this right) will come upon the world as a relative unknown, be the most friendly, give great promises, rouse the masses, appeal to the world, and once he has people in his grasp and control...WHAM. I don't believe in that bunk mind you, but I don't ignore such arguments either and so far of the two he fits better whereas McCain is the same McSame maverick dude who has been at it for a quarter century in the house and senate. He doesn't play the nice guy then go 666, he just listens, does what HE thinks is best, not what either party wants, and it has worked well so far.
> 
> ...



Nice post! Brings about interesting ideas, I agree with this view of Obama. Of course, we can't change that now... But I just hope things do go well!


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## gizmo_gal (Nov 5, 2008)

I voted for Obama, but I would've preferred Hillary.


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