# Jeffery Epstein indicted on charges of child sex trafficking



## Xzi (Jul 10, 2019)

So most people probably saw this story break yesterday.  Epstein, for those unaware, is a multimillionaire with connections to several rich and powerful figures in the realms of business and politics.  His charges carry with them a sentence of up to 45 years in jail if found guilty.  Which is rather lenient for charges of this type, if you ask me.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...trafficking-molesting-underage-girls-n1027356

Perhaps even more interesting than a man of his status finally being brought to justice, is the implications it may have for other individuals closely connected to Epstein.  In 2007, Alexander Acosta was a US attorney in Miami who helped win a sweetheart deal for Epstein in a state-level case involving multiple minors as victims.  Epstein was sentenced to only 13 months in a county jail, and reportedly had unprecedented freedom while serving that sentence.  Acosta is now serving as Labor Secretary in the Trump administration, and is under fire for that unethical and possibly illegal plea deal.  Calls to resign may end up being the least of his worries.

Epstein has also been known to have close ties to both Donald Trump and Bill Clinton.  The extent of their involvement with Epstein's crimes, if any, is still unknown.  I say the more pedophiles in high places this case shines a light on and brings down, the better.  Hopefully they've got all the evidence locked up tight, because I can see much of it "mysteriously" disappearing otherwise.  Or perhaps we'll see yet another cover-up by Bill Barr.  Only time will tell.


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## Lacius (Jul 10, 2019)

There's a minor mistake: Acosta wasn't a defense lawyer. He was the U.S. Attorney in Miami. This would be like the prosecutor offering a sweetheart deal, and the fact that Acosta did this has never been satisfactorily explained.


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## Xzi (Jul 10, 2019)

Lacius said:


> There's a minor mistake: Acosta wasn't a defense lawyer. He was the U.S. Attorney in Miami. This would be like the prosecutor offering a sweetheart deal, and the fact that Acosta did this has never been satisfactorily explained.


Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.


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## DBlaze (Jul 10, 2019)

Ah, so how long until people claim mr bad man is pedophile by association?
you know it's going to happen


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## Xzi (Jul 10, 2019)

DBlaze said:


> Ah, so how long until people claim mr bad man is pedophile by association?
> you know it's going to happen


Well, keeping in mind that nothing has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law yet, quotes like this one and sworn depositions like this certainly don't help lend him any plausible deniability.  His association with Epstein is of minimal importance, unless it turns out that he knew about Epstein's degenerate activities all along, or participated in them himself.


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## drewby (Jul 11, 2019)

Keep in mind that Trump's "ties" to Epstein are very small. Apparently, Trump found out that Epstein was a pedo YEARS ago, and dissociated himself from him about 15-20 years ago. Bill Clinton has flight records of going to Epstein's private island from only about 3 or 4 years ago, where all of this apparently took place. I'm just saying that we should probably look into what Bill was doin' over there...


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## Lacius (Jul 11, 2019)

Drew That Gamer said:


> Keep in mind that Trump's "ties" to Epstein are very small.


That's a bit of an understatement.


> Trump and Epstein, along with private equity mogul Tom Barrack, were a “set of nightlife musketeers” together during the 1980s and ‘90s.) Trump was also directly accused of raping a 13-year-old at one of Epstein’s parties, but the 2016 lawsuit was later dropped


https://www.vanityfair.com/news/201...nce-as-jeffrey-epstein-friends-begin-to-sweat

To be clear, I'm far more interested in why Epstein got the sweetheart deal from Acosta. His defense of the deal doesn't make a lot of sense.


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## drewby (Jul 11, 2019)

Lacius said:


> That's a bit of an understatement.
> 
> https://www.vanityfair.com/news/201...nce-as-jeffrey-epstein-friends-begin-to-sweat
> 
> To be clear, I'm far more interested in why Epstein got the sweetheart deal from Acosta. His defense of the deal doesn't make a lot of sense.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ar-Lago-sexually-assaulted-underage-girl.html

Trump knew some shady shit was up with Epstein, and cut him off YEARS ago.

Edit: He banned Epstein from Mar-a-Lago in 2000.


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## Lacius (Jul 11, 2019)

Drew That Gamer said:


> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ar-Lago-sexually-assaulted-underage-girl.html
> 
> Trump knew some shady shit was up with Epstein, and cut him off YEARS ago.
> 
> Edit: He banned Epstein from Mar-a-Lago in 2000.



This flies in the face of the narrative that Trump's ties to Epstein were "small."
The article outlines how Trump likely flew on Epstein's plane with him. If we should "look into what Bill was doing," then to be consistent, you must now say we should "look into what Trump was doing." I'll be waiting.
It sounds like, aside from banning him from Mar-a-Lago, Trump swept Epstein's crimes under the rug. In other words, this gives the impression that Trump didn't contact the legal authorities. The authorities are the ones who want to talk to Trump about this after hearing about it from someone else.
As I said earlier, the Trump-Epstein connection doesn't particularly interest me (without more information), since it doesn't seem to be relevant to Acosta sweetheart deal.


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## Xzi (Jul 12, 2019)

Alex Acosta has resigned as Labor Secretary over his handling of the previous Epstein plea deal.  He previously held a press conference to defend that plea deal, but his reasoning was not convincing, and he apparently didn't put on the grandstanding show that Trump wanted to see.


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## Taleweaver (Jul 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Perhaps even more interesting than a man of his status finally being brought to justice, is the implications it may have for other individuals closely connected to Epstein.


Ugh... Again? I'm frankly getting tired of this "let's find out if we can find a connection here" kind of reasoning. What's next? "<person> has been spotted watching a weinstein produced movie once. Therefore, he must be guilty by association"?

During the Kavanaugh days, it was as if the guy was assumed guilty (and Trump a monster for nominating him), whereas in reality he had not even been accused before.

Likewise : this is a case about Epstein. Get him trialed properly, then sentenced properly. Can we please hold off the mud slinging at others at the very least until after that? Pretty please?
(this goes mostly to reporters, really. These should be reporting on e.g. Muellers testimony, rather than vague suggestions)


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## Xzi (Jul 13, 2019)

Taleweaver said:


> During the Kavanaugh days, it was as if the guy was assumed guilty (and Trump a monster for nominating him), whereas in reality he had not even been accused before.


For me, the bigger issue with Kavanaugh was his disqualifying temperament and the sense of entitlement that he emanated.  And that's despite the fact that Ford's testimony was compelling and believable.  Under any other president, his nomination would've been withdrawn.



Taleweaver said:


> Likewise : this is a case about Epstein. Get him trialed properly, then sentenced properly. Can we please hold off the mud slinging at others at the very least until after that? Pretty please?


Sure, but we all know Epstein wasn't the only one involved, and the evidence in this case is likely to further solidify that point as it's presented.  It takes a circle of enablers to allow something like this to continue on for decades.


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## Hanafuda (Jul 13, 2019)

Xzi said:


> And that's despite the fact that Ford's testimony was compelling and believable.



No it wasn't.


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## SG854 (Jul 15, 2019)

Hanafuda said:


> No it wasn't.


Apparently not being able to remember what, when, where, how she got to the party, where it was at, how she got home and having no single witness to corroborate the story including her close friend who said she never even met Kavanaugh is compelling evidence and believable.


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## Glyptofane (Jul 15, 2019)

It is my hope that anyone involved with this goes down, but I suspect most of the highest profile scumbags' involvement will never come to light.


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## Xzi (Jul 16, 2019)

SG854 said:


> Apparently not being able to remember what, when, where, how she got to the party, where it was at, how she got home and having no single witness to corroborate the story including her close friend who said she never even met Kavanaugh is compelling evidence and believable.


Kavanaugh had drunken blackouts for such long periods of time that he had to pull out a fucking calendar.  Her testimony clearly got to him, or he wouldn't have been crying and screaming about how much he liked beer.  Like I said, under any sane president, his nomination would've been withdrawn.  Both the alcoholism and his temperament should've been individually disqualifying for the highest court in the nation.  It shouldn't be that hard to find a non-controversial nominee, the Trump administration had already done it once with Gorsuch.


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## SG854 (Jul 16, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Kavanaugh had drunken blackouts for such long periods of time that he had to pull out a fucking calendar.  Her testimony clearly got to him, or he wouldn't have been crying and screaming about how much he liked beer.  Like I said, under any sane president, his nomination would've been withdrawn.  Both the alcoholism and his temperament should've been individually disqualifying for the highest court in the nation.  It shouldn't be that hard to find a non-controversial nominee, the Trump administration had already done it once with Gorsuch.


That’s your evidence for why he’s guilty? U Mad Bro



WTF! That’s the most fucked up logic ever and you’re really biased as shit.

That was you take away. Not because he was falsely accused which can ruin his life is why he got mad, no it’s U Mad Bro cuz you know you guilty. That’s not how evidence works. You need to corroborate evidence, you need to at least remember shit.



I wouldn’t put you near anywhere to judge someone’s life.


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## Xzi (Jul 16, 2019)

SG854 said:


> That’s your evidence for why he’s guilty? U Mad Bro


I didn't make a determination on whether he's guilty or not, I only stated that he is blatantly unfit to serve on the supreme court.  And that's even if he had been proven innocent beyond all shadow of a doubt, which he wasn't.



SG854 said:


> That was you take away. Not because he was falsely accused which can ruin his life
> 
> I wouldn’t put you near anywhere to judge someone’s life.


This wasn't a life or death situation.  Nobody is _owed_ the honor of becoming a supreme court justice.  All you're doing is demonstrating the exact same type of entitlement that should've been disqualifying for Kavanaugh in the first place.


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## SG854 (Jul 16, 2019)

Xzi said:


> I didn't make a determination on whether he's guilty or not, I only stated that he is blatantly unfit to serve on the supreme court.  And that's even if he had been proven innocent beyond all shadow of a doubt, which he wasn't.
> 
> 
> This wasn't a life or death situation.  Nobody is _owed_ the honor of becoming a supreme court justice.  All you're doing is demonstrating the exact same type of entitlement that should've been disqualifying for Kavanaugh in the first place.


You said her testimony clearly got to him. Either implying that he is guilty or that he is innocent but her false accusation got to him, so fuck him for not maintaining his cool on a situation that can ruin his life because of some lying bitch.



He was being falsely accused, it’s understandable he lashed out. You’re just biased as shit and want any excuse just to use against him. Do you not understand the situation of being accused of sexual assault and the  effects it has to ruin a persons life. It was a life ruining situation. Do you not understand that.



Your last paragraph threw me off. I was taking about sexual accusations. It had nothing to do with him being guaranteed a position. What a great way to manipulate the argument just to paint me as entitled. And that last paragraph clearly showed I was talking about sexual accusation. Stop manipulating the argument and pay attention to what I say.


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## chrisrlink (Jul 16, 2019)

question is, is trump stupid enough to pardon him and give democrats even more ammo for impeachment?


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## Drud1995 (Jul 16, 2019)

Deleted


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## Xzi (Jul 16, 2019)

SG854 said:


> He was being falsely accused


You cannot prove that either way since there was never a proper investigation.  If I was innocent, I'd gladly subject myself to that to prove my innocence beyond any doubt.



SG854 said:


> Either implying that he is guilty or that he is innocent but her false accusation got to him, so fuck him for not maintaining his cool on a situation that can ruin his life because of some lying bitch.


Yes, he can fuck right off back to his six-figure income doing something else.  Again, not the life or death situation you're making it out to be.



SG854 said:


> You’re just biased as shit and want any excuse just to use against him.


You're the one presuming his innocence based on absolutely nothing.  I simply disagree with degrading the integrity of the Supreme Court in order to allow some entitled trust fund manbaby to feel special.  Neil Gorsuch is obviously a partisan hack, but I had no such objections to his confirmation, because he was at least able to keep his shit together and act like an adult for an hour or so during his confirmation hearing.

Let's try to stick to the topic at hand though, shall we?  We aren't going to agree on this and there's no use in litigating the past.


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## Xzi (Jul 18, 2019)

Epstein has been denied his requested bail.  Glad we seem to have a judge with a conscience presiding over this case.


			
				Bloomberg said:
			
		

> U.S. District Judge Richard Berman on Thursday turned aside Epstein’s bid to be confined to his Manhattan mansion, where he had offered to pay for armed guards and wear an ankle bracelet showing his location.
> 
> “I doubt that any bail package can overcome danger to the community,” the judge said.
> 
> While also noting that the wealthy money manager might flee, Berman rested his decision on the threat Epstein posed to alleged victims and potential witnesses. He noted the “compelling testimony” at a bail hearing Monday from two women who said Epstein had sexually abused them when they were teens.




Forthcoming within a matter of days are 2,000 pages of documents expected to reveal the names of numerous powerful and wealthy individuals with close ties to Epstein.


			
				Forward said:
			
		

> A legal document expected to be released within days is likely to reveal allegations of sexual abuse by “numerous prominent American politicians, powerful business executives, foreign presidents, a well-known prime minister, and other world leaders” with ties to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, Vanity Fair reported Wednesday.
> 
> The document will be unveiled by the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, which is hearing a defamation case brought by Virginia Roberts Giuffre, one of Epstein’s accusers, against Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein’s longtime friend.
> 
> “It’s going to be staggering, the amount of names,” a source with litigation against Epstein told Vanity Fair. “It’s going to be contagion numbers.”


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## Hanafuda (Jul 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> I didn't make a determination on whether he's guilty or not, I only stated that he is blatantly unfit to serve on the supreme court.  And that's even *if he had been proven innocent* beyond all shadow of a doubt, which he wasn't.






Xzi said:


> *You're the one presuming his innocence* based on absolutely nothing.




You're supposed to presume a person's innocence, until proven guilty. You're insistence that Kavanaugh, or anyone accused of misconduct or crimes, needs to prove their innocence is misplaced.


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## Xzi (Jul 18, 2019)

Hanafuda said:


> You're supposed to presume a person's innocence, until proven guilty. You're insistence that Kavanaugh, or anyone accused of misconduct or crimes, needs to prove their innocence is misplaced.


The law is supposed to presume a person's innocence until proven guilty.  Unfortunately, justice is not blind, and that presumption of innocence often depends on a person's ethnicity, wealth, and circumstances.  Additionally, neither my opinion nor public opinion are restricted by the letter of the law.


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## Xzi (Jul 26, 2019)

Epstein was found injured in his cell after a likely suicide attempt, though assault hasn't been completely ruled out.  Prosecutors might use this as evidence that Epstein knows he's guilty.



			
				NBC NY said:
			
		

> Lisa Bloom, a lawyer who represents some of the Epstein accusers, tweeted Thursday that neither her clients nor she "wish suicide upon anyone, not even a recidivist predator who has tricked and hurt so many women."
> 
> "We want him to stay alive to face the justice and accountability which is so long overdue," Bloom tweeted. "And it's coming."


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## IncredulousP (Jul 26, 2019)

Child molesters typically don't survive jail.


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## DCG (Aug 10, 2019)

Aaand he's dead.
How could he kill himself on suicide watch... Really makes you think.


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## GhostLatte (Aug 10, 2019)

Something very suspicious is up here.


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## Xzi (Aug 11, 2019)

DCG said:


> Aaand he's dead.
> How could he kill himself on suicide watch... Really makes you think.





GhostLatte said:


> Something very suspicious is up here.


Apparently he was taken off suicide watch just before committing suicide.  Very suspicious indeed, someone almost certainly got a big payoff.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 11, 2019)

even on suicide watch, i feel like some people underestimate just how quickly you could kill yourself if you really wanted it


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## GreatCrippler (Aug 11, 2019)

Clydefrosch said:


> even on suicide watch, i feel like some people underestimate just how quickly you could kill yourself if you really wanted it



A pedophile on suicide watch... "Here's a rope. I'm going to look away for 5 minutes. What you do with that time is entirely up to you."


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## EmulateLife (Aug 11, 2019)

"We can get you out but it's going to cost you a big chunk of that fortune. We'll stage it as a suicide. You'll have to leave the country forever"


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## sarkwalvein (Aug 11, 2019)

EmulateLife said:


> "We can get you out but it's going to cost you a big chunk of that fortune. We'll stage it as a suicide. You'll have to leave the country forever"


"Oh, take half my fortune, there are children all over the world" - he said.

PS: too soon?... "dear SarkW, you shouldn't joke about some topics"... oh well.


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## Deleted User (Aug 11, 2019)

Welp, he's gone to hell now...
Hope his victims will be able to move on with their lives, trust me he's getting eternal life in prison now...


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## Chary (Aug 11, 2019)

He’s dead, by “suicide”, and no one is surprised. At least trash got taken out.


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## Viri (Aug 11, 2019)

Well, at least he saved the tax payers their money! Also, on a different topic, they found the CEO of Activision-Blizzard's name/email in his "little black book".


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## Edgarska (Aug 11, 2019)

MicmasH_Wii said:


> Welp, he's gone to hell now...
> Hope his victims will be able to move on with their lives, trust me he's getting eternal life in prison now...



A hypothetical cosmic punishment does nothing to bring justice to his very real victims.
Regardless, this was not only about the victims "being able to move on", but bringing the rest of the perpetrators to justice so that there be no more victims.


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## Deleted User (Aug 11, 2019)

Edgarska said:


> A hypothetical cosmic punishment does nothing to bring justice to his very real victims.
> Regardless, this was not only about the victims "being able to move on", but bringing the rest of the perpetrators to justice so that there be no more victims.


Well, to each his own but yeah, they need to catch his pals.


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## Xzi (Aug 11, 2019)

MicmasH_Wii said:


> Well, to each his own but yeah, they need to catch his pals.
> bill


Recently unsealed documents show both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump had flown on Epstein's private jet.  No proof that either engaged in pedophilia...yet.  Plenty of other rich/powerful figures are facing accusations of that in connection to these documents, though.


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## Deleted User (Aug 11, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Recently unsealed documents show both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump had flown on Epstein's private jet.  No proof that either engaged in pedophilia...yet.  Plenty of other rich/powerful figures are facing accusations of that in connection to these documents, though.


Regardless of my political ideas, if Donald Trump was guilty of this I would want him to face life in prison.


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## EmulateLife (Aug 11, 2019)

I heard around a decade ago Clinton and Trump took trips with Epstein to Lolita Island.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2019)

I doubt it was suicide. Many people are glad about the news and wanted him silenced. Can't be too difficult to bribe a few prison guards to look the other way for a while.


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## regnad (Aug 11, 2019)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I doubt it was suicide. Many people are glad about the news and wanted him silenced. Can't be too difficult to bribe a few prison guards to look the other way for a while.



I don’t think it’s impossible that it was suicide, but suicide shouldn’t have happened. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to imagine that he was given the time and means to do it.


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## anhminh (Aug 11, 2019)

The only surprise thing is it took this long for him to be dead.


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## Viri (Aug 11, 2019)

We can only hope his buddies, who did unspeakable things to kids are caught and flogged in jail.


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## Zaybokk (Aug 11, 2019)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I doubt it was suicide. Many people are glad about the news and wanted him silenced. Can't be too difficult to bribe a few prison guards to look the other way for a while.


yeah we know better .... of course .. same thing has happened before many times .. very wealthy men- i mean Come on.. all has to do is pay off and bribe a few people in *The right places*-(which he knows them all in High Places-) u better believe it.. pays Certain ones off , then Slips out back door, changes Identity , face reconstruction and wig-long hair and makeup on , and never seen again
we can only Speculate the rest , u better Believe there's a lot more too it, what they tell you is most easiest story for people to believe , why u think that's first story by the *Mainstream media*Aka-(Fake-News) to tell u this??..


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## DCG (Aug 11, 2019)

The thing I am sad about though, is this will probably be the end of the story...

The victims can't sue him any more.
He can't flip on anyone anymore.
The elites get off scott free again.

Maybe one or two will be shown in a bad light, but we lost the center piece...


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## D34DL1N3R (Aug 11, 2019)

If you support Trump, you also support raping 13 year old girls.

https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/jeffrey-epstein-lawsuit-docs-signed.pdf


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## Zaybokk (Aug 11, 2019)

DCG said:


> The thing I am sad about though, is this will probably be the end of the story...
> 
> The victims can't sue him any more.
> He can't flip on anyone anymore.
> ...



Unfortunately this is always the case, extremely wealthy men getting off the Hook** and or - Just a slap on the wrist**.. really sad,


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## Thunder Hawk (Aug 11, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> If you support Trump, you also support raping 13 year old girls.
> 
> https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/jeffrey-epstein-lawsuit-docs-signed.pdf


How can anyone take this at face value?


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## Deleted User (Aug 11, 2019)

Thunder Hawk said:


> How can anyone take this at face value?


It's bad if it did happen, but it's gone through court before. We can complain about the court systems being corrupt, but what are the implications?
Wealthy people aren't to be trusted, but then that means all mainstream politicians are out of the question, their all well off financially. That includes both sides.


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## Zaybokk (Aug 11, 2019)

MicmasH_Wii said:


> It's bad if it did happen, but it's gone through court before. We can complain about the court systems being corrupt, but what are the implications?
> Wealthy people aren't to be trusted, but then that means all mainstream politicians are out of the question, their all well off financially. That includes both sides.


well not quite putting it like that- abit more than just simply wealthy people per say*.. but certain things are every true indeed


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## D34DL1N3R (Aug 11, 2019)

Thunder Hawk said:


> How can anyone take this at face value?



How can anyone not? And how can anyone laugh and think it's amusing? That much alone shows your character. People knew Trump was a complete scum looooooooooooong before he took office and there is plenty record of it. Only a deplorable would actually believe that a 13 year old girl just "Trumped Up" everything she said. Yes, pun intended. That's the entire problem with Trump supporters. Blind eye to EVERYthing the guys says and does. Even things that have video and audio proof. Complete denial.

I 100% with ZERO doubt in my mind believe it happened. And anyone else, including Clinton, that was involved with Epstein & illegal activities can be proven - should be held accountable for their actions.

Difference is. I can say lock him up if Clinton (or anyone else) was involved. Deplorable dotards will never say the same about their precious orange loser.


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## Thunder Hawk (Aug 11, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Even things that have video and audio proof. Complete denial.


Can I have links to these? Complete with full context?


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## Deleted User (Aug 11, 2019)

Buddy, I would support Trump being locked away if they proved it.
But the problem is, there is heavy polititcal opposition to this guy and they have proven they are willing to lie to take him out.
Your right, it's best to be skeptical whether you like him or not.


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## D34DL1N3R (Aug 11, 2019)

Thunder Hawk said:


> Can I have links to these? Complete with full context?



Seriously? Are you REALLY that incapable of fact checking and investigating on your own? They're ALL OVER THE PLACE for Christs sake. In plain view. I'm not going to hold your effing hand. I understand Trumpers have a difficult time fact checking, reading, you know.. those sorts of things. But with a little patience and practice, you can learn in no time. Hell, there's even adult education classes than can possibly help with such things. Smh.


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## Deleted User (Aug 11, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Seriously? Are you REALLY that incapable of fact checking and investigating on your own? They're ALL OVER THE PLACE for Christs sake. In plain view. I'm not going to hold your effing hand. I understand Trumpers have a difficult time fact checking, reading, you know.. those sorts of things. But with a little patience and practice, you can learn in no time. Hell, there's even adult education classes than can possibly help with such things. Smh.


Yes, because conservative news, instead of being treated equally, is stuffed under. Although only 6 people own ALL of the news, there are countless news agencies that repeat the same thing, so you get a lot of duplicates.
And don't you realize, because we are biased, we will go out and seek what we want, instead of reading something we don't trust?

I agree with you, we should look for ourselves, but on each side of the issue so we can decide what's real, based on the whole story and not one side of it.

Not looking to start an arguement, by the way, no problem man.


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## sarkwalvein (Aug 11, 2019)

What is this? The supreme court of the temps?
Why don't you leave up the investigation and judgment to people that have the faculty to do it?
Any verdict reached here has no effect anyway.
And this chit-chat way of throwing rumors as fact or in the other side asking for proof as if you had the faculty to reach some verdict... as if your opinions or childish quarrels mattered.

Again... "politics" section... but this gossipy way of discussing topics while pretending they are well researched... it's IMHO nauseating.


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## D34DL1N3R (Aug 11, 2019)

MicmasH_Wii said:


> Yes, because conservative news, instead of being treated equally, is stuffed under. Although only 6 people own ALL of the news, there are countless news agencies that repeat the same thing, so you get a lot of duplicates.
> And don't you realize, because we are biased, we will go out and seek what we want, instead of reading something we don't trust?
> 
> I agree with you, we should look for ourselves, but on each side of the issue so we can decide what's real, based on the whole story and not one side of it.
> ...



It's all good.  I fully support locking up any and every Republican AND Democrat found guilty. I just find in FAR more cases than not, Trump supports will stick by him regardless. He could be found 100% guilty of any given crime, and they would still say he's innocent.


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## Deleted User (Aug 11, 2019)

sarkwalvein said:


> What is this? The supreme court of the temps?
> Why don't you leave up the investigation and judgment to people that have the faculty to do it?
> Any verdict reached here has no effect anyway.
> And this chit-chat way of throwing rumors as fact or in the other side asking for proof as if you had the faculty to reach some verdict... as if your opinions or childish quarrels mattered.
> ...


Dude you hit it on the nail. damn i'm guilty of participating in this, sorry guys


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## DarthDub (Aug 12, 2019)

Is he really dead though?


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## Zaybokk (Aug 12, 2019)

DarthDub said:


> Is he really dead though?


if u believe he is.., your only fooling yourself.. dude the fake* news companies these days ,  u can't believe nothing they say..


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## Xzi (Aug 12, 2019)

DarthDub said:


> Is he really dead though?


Well, if he survived committing suicide, he definitely didn't survive the autopsy. 

I think it's possible this was a murder made to look like a suicide, or he was forced to commit suicide at gunpoint, but the theory that he's still alive is a bit too loony for me.  I'm confident that he's not hanging out on an island somewhere with Tupac and Elvis.


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## EmulateLife (Aug 12, 2019)

He's was a pederass dudes.


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## Costello (Aug 12, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> If you support Trump, you also support raping 13 year old girls.
> 
> https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/jeffrey-epstein-lawsuit-docs-signed.pdf


I couldnt find any serious news source about this. All I find when I look up the subject is basically user posted content sites like Medium, Vox, etc.
Do you have another more reliable source? this seems a bit random, to be honest


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## Thunder Hawk (Aug 12, 2019)

Costello said:


> I couldnt find any serious news source about this. All I find when I look up the subject is basically user posted content sites like Medium, Vox, etc.
> Do you have another more reliable source? this seems a bit random, to be honest


Looks like someone didn't flatten the pdf either. The black bars can be removed to reveal the address and phone number.
radaronline.com seems like a tabloid site or something.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Aug 12, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well, if he survived committing suicide, he definitely didn't survive the autopsy.


Damn, playing dead seemed like a good plan at first.


----------



## DCG (Aug 12, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well, if he survived committing suicide, he definitely didn't survive the autopsy.
> 
> I think it's possible this was a murder made to look like a suicide, or he was forced to commit suicide at gunpoint, but the theory that he's still alive is a bit too loony for me.  I'm confident that he's not hanging out on an island somewhere with Tupac and Elvis.



To be honest,
I'd like to see the corpse (cut open preferably) and a dna test by a russian company.
Just to be sure... I could declare myself dead through a new account claiming to be my sister here... (I know, scale, but still, it could be done in his case).


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 12, 2019)

Costello said:


> I couldnt find any serious news source about this. All I find when I look up the subject is basically user posted content sites like Medium, Vox, etc.
> Do you have another more reliable source? this seems a bit random, to be honest



You can always contact the necessary authorities to find out if it was actually filed or not. Wouldn't it be public information? There IS more info though on this, and I wouldn't for one second exclude the possibility that these charges were "fixed" before the election. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4154484/katie-johnson-v-donald-j-trump/

Regardless if the accusations are true or not, it IS very disturbing. But what may be almost more disturbing is the fact the Trump supporters flat out refuse to believe that he is capable of such things. Instead of being disgusted and thinking... "Hey, it could be true. This is a 13 year old girl we're talking about.", they automatically run to his defense with some ludicrous notion that he is incapable of ANY wrongdoing - no matter how significant or insignificant it may be. Trumpers, ask yourself this. If your minor daughter came to you and said she was raped by someone you respected and thought was a good person, would you just blow it off and tell her it never happened? Even if she had zero proof. Would you just say "Nope. Pictures or it didn't happen."?

I'll tell you this. I was molested as a child. Many times, by two different people. Just because there isn't a video or pictures of it floating around, are you going to tell me it didn't happen? Perhaps start to suspend your belief for a moment that Trump is some sort of amazing Christian leader with great vales and morals that we all should look up to and respect, and think that maybe... just maybe... every single accusation against him is true. Or at least a good enough amount of them. The completely blind allegiance to Trump by his following makes me literally sick to my stomach.

Remember when every other president in history had THIS many accusations of wrongdoing, compulsive lying, sexual assaults, etc, etc,...? Me neither. So why just Trump? Why not every other Republican or Democrat? Look at his history as a person in general. As a business man in general. There's plenty out there that shows what a complete asshat & rotten person the guy was LONG before he took office. Why are the accusations so incredibly hard for his supporters to believe? Even as POSSIBLY having happened. Not just this one, but ALL of them. It's ALWAYS just a flat out "NOPE! DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!", with ZERO critical thinking skills whatsoever. It's not even like there are not pictures of Trump and Epstein together. I'll go back to this too - if things of this nature came out about Democrat candidates, a Democrat President, or otherwise - you bet your ass I would take it 100% seriously. And if Clinton or anyone else is brought up on charges related to Epstein... lock them up. ALL OF THEM. Can't say the same for the Cult of Trump. Ever.


----------



## Thunder Hawk (Aug 12, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Instead of being disgusted and thinking... "Hey, it could be true. This is a 13 year old girl we're talking about.", they automatically run to his defense with some ludicrous notion that he is incapable of ANY wrongdoing - no matter how significant or insignificant it may be.



Huh? That's odd. "Hey, it could be true. This is a 13 year old girl we're talking about."? I might be missing something, but it almost appears like you're saying that the accusations might be true just because of the girl's age alone. I don't see the connection here. 



D34DL1N3R said:


> I'll tell you this. I was molested as a child. Many times, by two different people. Just because there isn't a video or pictures of it floating around, are you going to tell me it didn't happen?



I hope you took legal action against those people, if that did happen.



D34DL1N3R said:


> If you support Trump, you also support raping 13 year old girls.



That's a bit of a ridiculous claim to make.


----------



## D34DL1N3R (Aug 12, 2019)

Thunder Hawk said:


> Huh? That's odd. "Hey, it could be true. This is a 13 year old girl we're talking about."? I might be missing something, but it almost appears like you're saying that the accusations might be true just because of the girl's age alone. I don't see the connection here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) You completely missed the ENTIRE point.

2) I was a CHILD when these things happened. And we all know how court cases go when a person tries to file charges 30+ years after the incidents happened, with no proof.

3) In the grand scheme of things, no, it's really not. If you support a person, you are also in support of their actions AND alleged actions. If all of the allegations about Trump, sexual and otherwise (and we all know there are a LOT of them) were claimed towards a Democrat or any other Republican - I certainly would NOT be in support of them. Period. Thing is... there is not now and has never been in the past, a candidate with the sheer amount of, or types of, accusations Trump has against him. For his supporters to actually believe that EVERY, SINGLE accusation about him is a complete fabrication is outlandishly absurd.


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## SG854 (Aug 12, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> You can always contact the necessary authorities to find out if it was actually filed or not. Wouldn't it be public information? There IS more info though on this, and I wouldn't for one second exclude the possibility that these charges were "fixed" before the election. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4154484/katie-johnson-v-donald-j-trump/
> 
> Regardless if the accusations are true or not, it IS very disturbing. But what may be almost more disturbing is the fact the Trump supporters flat out refuse to believe that he is capable of such things. Instead of being disgusted and thinking... "Hey, it could be true. This is a 13 year old girl we're talking about.", they automatically run to his defense with some ludicrous notion that he is incapable of ANY wrongdoing - no matter how significant or insignificant it may be. Trumpers, ask yourself this. If your minor daughter came to you and said she was raped by someone you respected and thought was a good person, would you just blow it off and tell her it never happened? Even if she had zero proof. Would you just say "Nope. Pictures or it didn't happen."?
> 
> ...


Most Parents will believe their kids right away but if criminal charges are to happen you need proof. You can’t just charge everyone that gets accused. Human Memories is very unreliable, and can be subjected to false memories.

Lots of therapists got sued in the 90’s because they believed they could recover old lost memories and instead implanted false memories of fathers raping their daughters. So now they follow guidelines of what questions they can and can’t ask to prevent this from happening again.

You can’t put that burden on the accused, so evidence is needed. And people would need to get a rape kit as soon as they can before evidence is long gone. If too much time is passed and evidence is destroyed i’m sorry but that’s just the way it is to prevent people from abusing the system/misremembering and innocents goes to jail.

If you can think of a better way of preventing innocent people from going to jail then tell us how.


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## D34DL1N3R (Aug 12, 2019)

SG854 said:


> Most Parents will believe their kids right away but if criminal charges are to happen you need proof. You can’t just charge everyone that gets accused. Human Memories is very unreliable, and can be subjected to false memories.
> 
> Lots of therapists got sued in the 90’s because they believed they could recover old lost memories and instead implanted false memories of fathers raping their daughters. So now they follow guidelines of what questions they can and can’t ask to prevent this from happening again.
> 
> ...



I honestly do not see what ANY of that has to do with my post. I'm obviously already aware that burden of proof lies on the accuser. And it almost sounds as if you're saying that without proof of myself being molested, it's possible that those memories were just planted in my head. If I misunderstood, then I misunderstood. But I still don't see how any of it really relates to anything at all that I've posted. Shrug.


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## Flame (Aug 13, 2019)

crazy all this.


who ever gave the order to kill him is like the most powerful being in the universe. all he had to do was click his fingers.

i mean like he was under watch 24/7. in a place which was not doable what he did. if this happened in North Korea, we would be that's normal. but it happened in a place where  it thinks and acts like its the leader of the world and which everything is fair and right.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 13, 2019)

Flame said:


> who ever gave the order to kill him is like the most powerful being in the universe


Money is more influential than you realize. That being said, I personally have no idea what really happened without more information available. I'm not even sure he's alive or dead.


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## Flame (Aug 13, 2019)

IncredulousP said:


> Money is more influential than you realize. That being said, I personally have no idea what really happened without more information available. I'm not even sure he's alive or dead.



Oh, money is everything. the average Joe didn't kill him. the rich and powerful did.


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## Saiyan Lusitano (Aug 13, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> If you support Trump, you also support raping 13 year old girls.


Trump is a businessman and plays his cards as he sees fit with his supporters but saying that is completely ridiculous.

Can people be influenced and do what others may say? Yes.
Who is responsible for when someone takes action? The person who decided to commit the crime.


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## D34DL1N3R (Aug 13, 2019)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Trump is a businessman and plays his cards as he sees fit with his supporters but saying that is completely ridiculous.



See my response to the other person who said the same thing as you. It's not ridiculous in the slightest. I'll also add the facts that Trump has bragged about sexually assaulting women, about liking young girls, about walking in on naked girls in the Miss American Pageant dressing room just because he can, and about what a great guy Epstein is. Anyone who doesn't take the claims seriously, even IF they never happened, is as much a complete despicable loser as Trump himself.


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## SG854 (Aug 14, 2019)

D34DL1N3R said:


> I honestly do not see what ANY of that has to do with my post. I'm obviously already aware that burden of proof lies on the accuser. And it almost sounds as if you're saying that without proof of myself being molested, it's possible that those memories were just planted in my head. If I misunderstood, then I misunderstood. But I still don't see how any of it really relates to anything at all that I've posted. Shrug.


In the first sentence I answered the question that parents would believe their kids right away.

And what I said does address your entire point. If you want someone to believe you, outside of your parents, like making accusations against Trump then you need to have evidence. There’s no other way.

There’s is a possibility that Trump can do stuff your saying but that’s true for everyone even the most innocent people you won’t expect. You won’t get very far with the thought of well there’s that possibility of evil. Might as well think like that for your parents or people that’s close to you, you never know the capabilities of even the most unsuspecting people. You always hear stories of wow I never expected them of being like that like you were saying.

You need proof even to think negatively of them, if not then your anger towards a person is baseless, because just like them possibly being evil there is also a possibility of them being innocent.

Trump is a special case, he get called everything in the book racist, sexist, stupid, liar for months and months. Some of the claims turned out false hysteria. It’s basically become the boy who cried wolf, or in this case the leftist that cried racist. This is why people don’t take this stuff seriously anymore and are sick of hearing Trump Trump Trump. They just don’t know what to believe anymore when everything is producing conflicting information and people are acting hysterical.



You did misunderstood. I wasn’t saying that you specifically are making stuff up.


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## D34DL1N3R (Aug 14, 2019)

SG854 said:


> In the first sentence I answered the question that parents would believe their kids right away.
> 
> And what I said does address your entire point. If you want someone to believe you, outside of your parents, like making accusations against Trump then you need to have evidence. There’s no other way.
> 
> ...



Too tired to write about everything that's wrong with that. I'll get back to you on it though for sure.


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## notimp (Aug 14, 2019)

Here are some relative pointers for the conspiracy theories around his death.

On the german (far) left, there is a similar mythos people like to keep alive today - where the members of a left wing german terror cell in the seventies were found hanged, or shot to death in their prison cells - which one of the survivers claimed were extrajudicial killings, which the government denied. Later another member of the cell stated, that killing themselves, and then blaming it on the government would have been a last stand information warfare strategy, that was discussed by the terror group internally. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammheim_Prison )

There is a second incident also mythified by the german far left, where a bombing investigation with political ties was not finished to everyones satisfaction. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oktoberfest_bombing )

State agencies in the past are confirmed having run criminal networks (France in Vietnam), or withholding critical correspondence from the acting president (CIA pre vietnam war involvement).

So what most conspiracy theories are referencing here is "state involvement", or "state agency involvement".

Never take those theories at face value - they never are "for sure what happened" but there have been strange coincidences, that point at certain 'potentials', in countries all over the world in the past.

So when stuff like "people familiar with the institution and acting employees of the prison voiced, that it would be extremely not the norm that Epstein would be taken off of suicide watch" happens - everyone who has dabbled in some of those conspiracy theories, all of a sudden has a one track mind. 

Just know, that all of it is purely speculation - and that is all that it ever will be. (Even with freedom of information requests after 50 years, I think there is no precedent for stuff like this ever 'leaking' or surfacing.) People are only acting on rumors here.

Another urban legend revolves about the bounding principal of 'a common secret' that several people of a group have an incentive in not having leak out. (Mutually ensured destruction principal.) Which kind of creates tight bonds.

This also plays into the principal of secret agencies dealing in Kompromat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kompromat) at which point we are fully in a John le Carré spy novel, and hopefully all recognize, that all of this is purely speculative.


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## dAVID_ (Aug 14, 2019)

According to Wikipedia, he wasn't in suicide watch but still had to be checked over every 30 minutes. As it turns out, that wasn't the case, which gave him a window to commit suicide.


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## notimp (Aug 14, 2019)

Yes, guards were asleep for three hours, then tried to cover that up by forging the reports. Thats the current "what happened".

Suidice watch was lifted after a psychological evaluation, within one week after hist first suicide attempt.

Checkins every 30 min arent suicide watch.  (That is 24/7 monitoring.)


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## Glyptofane (Aug 14, 2019)

Glad to see everyone is united on this suicide story being a crock of shit. Only The New York Slimes seems to be pushing for everyone to accept the narrative to the point of basically calling conspiracy theorists terrorists. The suicide itself is as much a conspiracy theory as the other alternatives as there is no real proof and it's still the less believable one at that. This weasel was either murdered or swooped up and shipped to Israel.


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## notimp (Aug 14, 2019)

Too much emotion, too much certainty. I'm in here to actually point at the trappings of conspiracy theories in general. Without making them taboo to think about, because it is PC. 

They are not the 'logical conclusion', they are not 'obviously what happened', they are thought excercises that sometimes are fun to think about, and sometimes are just plain stupid. 

If you let them take over your "believes of the world" you ostracized yourself (there have been counterculture personalities (singers, comedians) who peddled some of the more outrageous ones, and the only thing that happened was that people started, to look at them funny..  ). So yes, its "edgy and exciting" to think about that stuff a little differently - but in the end, we all just do it for the kicks..


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## Jiehfeng (Aug 15, 2019)

I just found out, so forgive me if some of you already knew:




 

(fact checked)


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## notimp (Aug 15, 2019)

I'd recommend double the amount of tinfoil on that one. Just to be safe.


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## notimp (Aug 15, 2019)

Oh, btw. this story has come out through freedom of information requests. 

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/...er-king-jr-and-dangers-unchecked-surveillance

In case you dind't know. 

And remember, we are only doing this for the kicks. No certainty to be had here. Keep your sanity. 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

More context:

On Baden:


> At 85, he estimates that he has performed more than 20,000 autopsies, and he has been hired as a forensic expert for cases involving civil rights activists (Medgar Evers), athletes (Kobe Bryant, Aaron Hernandez) and celebrities (John Belushi).


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/13/michael-baden-jeffrey-epstein-autopsy/

He even stars in some HBO show.. 


--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Ah. Reading debunks this one.



> Perhaps proving his point, when New York City Chief Medical Examiner Barbara Sampson announced on Sunday night that Baden had witnessed Epstein’s autopsy at the request of the deceased financier’s legal team — a routine precaution in high-profile cases — the news further inflamed some online conspiracy theorists.


src: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/13/michael-baden-jeffrey-epstein-autopsy/

So he only whitnessed it (didn't oversee) and did so as part of the deceaseds legal team.

Epsteins legal team, should have no hightened interest in masking the cause of his death.

(How would that strange conspiracy theory go?  )

Also he was only a professional witness in the autopsy.
Also with 20.000 cases under his helm, there are bound to be a few 'special ones' amongst them.

So guys - next time, more reading before posting memes.


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## notimp (Aug 15, 2019)

Here I made you your own contingency conspiracy theory, that makes it work again. 

Because the Epstein estate is now sued by alleged victims as well, they needed to make sure that the autopsy result of their guy is in line with the 'masked' autopsy result of the state. And they still had to send their own guy - because otherwise it would have seemed suspicious, and...

- ok, listen - its not the best one of these, but it still works.. 

Also notice, that the meme used the phrase "to watch over" which turns out not to be strictly true. So... Whats the best conspiracy theory here? Russian troll army made the meme?


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## Jiehfeng (Aug 16, 2019)

Well I don't have time to check all of that, but I get the point here I think. In any case, fact is that he was involved in the most infamous autopsies, and now this. And if there is some underhanded stuff going on here, the last thing you'd trust is the media.


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## Glyptofane (Aug 16, 2019)

Jiehfeng said:


> Well I don't have time to check all of that, but I get the point here I think. In any case, fact is that he was involved in the most infamous autopsies, and now this. And if there is some underhanded stuff going on here, the last thing you'd trust is the media.


I find this highly suspicious as well, but there are a couple points worth mentioning. I didn't realize this was the guy behind the autopsy originally, but a few days ago he was saying it was "likely suicide", but wouldn't yet call it as the definitive cause of death. Yesterday we learned that the autopsy allegedly states that Epstein had broken bones in his neck. It takes a serious gallows level hanging to cause this. Most self hangings end in death through asphyxiation, since there's just not enough force to break the neck.


> Epstein, 66, was found with the sheet wrapped around his neck and secured to the top of a bunk bed, the New York Post reported Monday. He kneeled toward the floor and used the noose to strangle himself, the paper added, citing an unnamed law enforcement official.


This statement was made before the neck bones revelation, but what it means now is that he broke his neck by leaning forward with a paper sheet wrapped around his neck. This is just too stupid to even entertain.


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## notimp (Aug 16, 2019)

Jiehfeng said:


> Well I don't have time to check all of that, but I get the point here I think. In any case, fact is that he was involved in the most infamous autopsies, and now this. And if there is some underhanded stuff going on here, the last thing you'd trust is the media.


Neh, not how that goes.

The point is, can you make a congruent (good  ) conspiracy theory out of that factoid - combined with the others. And the answer is - no.

As someone that had helmed 20.000 autopsies in the past - there is a numbers thing, that there are likely some pretty interesting ones amongst them. First autopsies usually are only insisted on in cases where people arent sure what a person might have died from - so if you get 20.000 of them under your helm in your lifetime - and you are good at it, chance are that you'll see some pretty strange ones in your lifetime... 

Because MLK and JFK are not in a direct connection to our Epstein-boy here, what happens here very likely is 'chance clustering'.
(Whats interesting about his life? Oh, he met those interesting people... (- on his job))

It still would be juicy - for a conspiracy theory, if he would have been the guy that kind of makes the final call in terms of 'cause of death' - but here he isnt.

He is just the 'independent' opinion for the defense, who very likely has chosen him, because he's a 'celebrity pathologist' (Appartently thats a thing..  Call it high profile, but he's gone for celebrity appeal in the past (HBO show), so...  ).

So any good conspiracy theory ends here.

Media usually isn't lying on stuff like "who employed him (defense)", or "how many cases he's given an opinion on" over his career. Those are checkable facts. So anyone can pick up a telephone and doublecheck. If as media you'd lie, on those - your reputation as a paper (FOX apparently operates on a different ruleset), would be out of the window in no time.

Also if everyone lies on everything.. What are we interested in conspiracy theories for?  No - the juicy ones, are those - where there aren't necessarily better explanations for stuff out there. 

If something is just an 'odd coincidence' with no likely hidden nefarious purpose - thats not fun.


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## Jiehfeng (Aug 16, 2019)

notimp said:


> Neh, not how that goes.
> 
> The point is, can you make a congruent (good  ) conspiracy theory out of that factoid - combined with the others. And the answer is - no.
> 
> ...



"Celebrity Pathologist" is just one reason among many that could be behind why he was used. All these are possibilities that are not worth arguing on, at least for me. There can be many things we don't know beside common knowledge here, so I'll personally leave it at that, I hope someone else will entertain your same reasoning.


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## Viri (Aug 16, 2019)

Well, that's just creepy.



Spoiler



https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1161258497050390528


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## notimp (Aug 16, 2019)

But its a good enough reason.  (Probability wise. And because the guy turned out not to be the pathologist in charge.)

It would be interesting to find out though, how often the 'top level pathologist' in a department is used for 'the high profile cases' probably often. (If you are the best heart surgeant in New York, kind of thing...  ), and how often they have 'changed' over lets say three decades.

Just for the probability assessment.

Also in this case the conspiracy theory would probably argue, that they used a "known and trusted guy" - but then the prison guards sleeping in question had one trainee amongst them - so, there the conspiracy theory would probably say - that those where easily payed off.. 

And thats the flexibility of those theories. 

The fun ones are still those, where there is almost no other plausible explanation, and they still remain odd - and strangely congruent looking.


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## Youkai (Aug 16, 2019)

Well it seems there are much much more pedophile people than you would assume ...
But as bad as it might be, some "kids" with 14 actually look like they are 18+ especially when they use makeup and such.

I wouldn't offer them money but if a 14 years old girl who looks really good come to me I also wouldn't say no (probably) ... 


I know ppl will hate me but if the girls accepted the money and were not "forced" to do it the only crime would be that they are underage but they kinda did it out of their own free will it seems so I for one don't see much of a problem here.


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## Jiehfeng (Aug 16, 2019)

Youkai said:


> Well it seems there are much much more pedophile people than you would assume ...
> But as bad as it might be, some "kids" with 14 actually look like they are 18+ especially when they use makeup and such.
> 
> I wouldn't offer them money but if a 14 years old girl who looks really good come to me I also wouldn't say no (probably) ...
> ...



After the age of 14, humans are biologically mature enough for sex and it is also the point where intelligence stops growing, and from there it's just knowledge/experience. And similar to what you said, I notice a lot of the new generation, especially girls look older than most old women lol.

So anything done from that point is only wrong in terms of legality I think. A lot of teenagers from that age also do it with others. These are just the facts, I didn't put much thought into it further, but I would be curious to know from others what is morally or in any way wrong for consensual sex from that point.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 16, 2019)

Youkai said:


> Well it seems there are much much more pedophile people than you would assume ...
> But as bad as it might be, some "kids" with 14 actually look like they are 18+ especially when they use makeup and such.
> 
> I wouldn't offer them money but if a 14 years old girl who looks really good come to me I also wouldn't say no (probably) ...
> ...


I think the key point is the concept of consent and determining a hard line at which point it is reasonable to assume that someone has matured enough to be of sound body and mind, to give permission with full knowledge of any repercussions. Not only is this line contentious, but the definition of consent is as well; there are many different ages in different states/countries considered legal age of consent.

Ideally, it is not about being attracted to the appropriate shape/size of someone, rather, it is about avoiding taking advantage of someone's inability to fully reason and understand the consequences of their actions, in addition to ensuring that all parties are equipped mentally and emotionally to handle such actions.


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## Jiehfeng (Aug 16, 2019)

IncredulousP said:


> I think the key point is the concept of consent and determining a hard line at which point it is reasonable to assume that someone has matured enough to be of sound body and mind, to give permission with full knowledge of any repercussions. Not only is this line contentious, but the definition of consent is as well; there are many different ages in different states/countries considered legal age of consent.
> 
> Ideally, it is not about being attracted to the appropriate shape/size of someone, rather, it is about avoiding taking advantage of someone's inability to fully reason and understand the consequences of their actions, in addition to ensuring that all parties are equipped mentally and emotionally to handle such actions.



I guess it comes down to that. While intelligence does stop growing at around 14, maturity can take any length of time. Personally I matured for the most part at around 13-14, while most kids my age remained the same till around 17 or so. (this is basic mental maturity, not the kind that has even adults being immature)

So yeah, it's basically best to just not go there. If you couldn't help yourself then your desires are pretty much out of control.


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## arcanine (Aug 17, 2019)

Well it turns out this absolute cunt has taken the easy way out. Shame we won't get to enjoy knowing he is rotting in prison for the rest of his miserable life. Though at least this way there is no way for him to ever harm anybody else.


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## notimp (Aug 17, 2019)

arcanine said:


> Well it turns out this absolute cunt has taken the easy way out. Shame we won't get to enjoy knowing he is rotting in prison for the rest of his miserable life. Though at least this way there is no way for him to ever harm anybody else.


There you have your humanity. People sometimes only wait for excuses to bask in the suffering of others. Which they very happily will induce.

Understand, that I get just how effed up and wrong even just the part of what I read about his life was. But everytime someone tells me, I have children, so now I want to tell you about how I would have received joy from letting him rot, and was shortchanged by him killing himself, I think to myself - yes, this is also what society tries to prevent.

If you are personally connected to one of the victims - slightly different story. But you are not (statistically speaking). You are just sharing your violence fantasies with the world.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 17, 2019)

notimp said:


> There you have your humanity. People sometimes only wait for excuses to bask in the suffering of others. Which they very happily will induce.
> 
> Understand, that I get just how effed up and wrong even just the part of what I read about his life was. But everytime someone tells me, I have children, so now I want to tell you about how I would have received joy from letting him rot, and was shortchanged by him killing himself, I think to myself - yes, this is also what society tries to prevent.
> 
> If you are personally connected to one of the victims - slightly different story. But you are not (statistically speaking). You are just sharing your violence fantasies with the world.


Agreed. It's revenge, not punishment. Revenge doesn't cause anything but further suffering. His misery wouldn't unrape those kids, nor fix their lives, nor prevent something like this from happening again. It's a primal, emotional instinct to do harm to those that cause us misery, and while revenge may be cathartic, it is short-lived and ultimately fruitless.


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## arcanine (Aug 18, 2019)

notimp said:


> There you have your humanity. People sometimes only wait for excuses to bask in the suffering of others. Which they very happily will induce.
> 
> Understand, that I get just how effed up and wrong even just the part of what I read about his life was. But everytime someone tells me, I have children, so now I want to tell you about how I would have received joy from letting him rot, and was shortchanged by him killing himself, I think to myself - yes, this is also what society tries to prevent.
> 
> If you are personally connected to one of the victims - slightly different story. But you are not (statistically speaking). You are just sharing your violence fantasies with the world.


I have no moral qualms about revelling in the suffering of a monster who calculatedly trafficked children so that they can be raped over and over again. I think it would be immoral not to. If there isn't a horrifying punishment for this behaviour, then perhaps some people who might be considering it wouldn't think twice.


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## spotanjo3 (Aug 18, 2019)

The reason those people are pervert because of influence from porn. It made some people doing crazy things and disgusting things.


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## notimp (Aug 18, 2019)

azoreseuropa said:


> The reason those people are pervert because of influence from porn. It made some people doing crazy things and disgusting things.


*sigh*
What was it? Too much certainty, too much emotion.



(Also - no.)

Wait a little - edit to follow.

edit: @azoreseuropa : Here for you. 


(And please dont directly switch to homophobia after watching that.  )

Also - read this, if interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_Sexuality



Or this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_in_Furs

So, the cause of sexual perversions is probably not porn. Although through porn, pretty much the vast majority of those have become more 'commonly accepted'. Which actually helps most people that are into something like that.

The thing is - we cant (nor should) do that with pedos, because we have to keep the well being of the child in mind. And when you add together the potential abuses of power (as in a power mismatch in a relationship) that might not be entirely consensual, and that a childs sense of self and the world is still developing, and that there is a built in dependency - you can easily mess up peoples lives pretty good at that point. Thats part of why its a crime. And there is little to no moral ambiguity there. Its a crime for a reason. Society shuns it, for a reason.

With other forms of sexual perversion - not so much anymore. (Trumps alleged pee tapes, mainstream enough for you?  ) But as far as I know - there is no rise in sexually motivated crimes in the timeframe pr0n became widely available online. It probably even had the reverse effect. (Look for studies..  )


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## WeedZ (Aug 18, 2019)

@notimp you need to get your thoughts together before posting, or at least edit your previous posts if you have an after thought. This double/triple/quadruple posting makes threads a pain to read.


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## notimp (Aug 18, 2019)

The last posting was a direct reply to the posting before.

I edited it with more context.

I will keep it in mind in the future.

edit: Also some of the postings on the past page were 'work in progress' and only contextualized later.

So when people were into the coroner conspiracy - I first gave some (proven) context for a states shady action in the MLK case, then looked up the coroner, saw how many autopsies he did (has an impact on probability. people usually resort to conspiracy theories, when they think, that there is no way that something could be chance, but with 20.000 done in a lifetime that changes), then I posted a video on what kind of personality type the guy seemed to be (likes to be a celebrity). Then I read that he was actually employed by the defense, and was not - as indicated - overlooking the autopsy - so none of the earlier stuff mattered much anymore.

So first I was in fact finding mode - and then (later) posted something like a conclusion (Which made the topic 'disjointed'.).

While we are still pooling together factoids, its hard to have my conclusion ready to go as well... 

I know that this is a sensitive topic - but then I also dont want to just be like - 'hey this sounds like a conspiracy theory' - so probably not true. Lets show people a little how to judge based on a few more things than just feeling.  (probability, plausibility, ... that stuff.

Most often, when posting a video in this forum, I actually try to make analogies - that would allow people to see a little more of the circumstances in other cases - that seemed similar. I cant make a 'this is why, and what you should think' suggestion on those cases, because - they are analogies. Either they work for you - or they don't. 

F.e.: When people stated that violent protest is just for people getting off on watching the world burn, I show them monks burning themselves on streets in protest historically, and people ridiculing them for the same reasons ('they just troublemakers') - they ridiculed all violent protest in the past. But also I'm hopefully responsible enough - to state multiple times, that violent protest is not needed, nor wanted in democracies, generally and specifically speaking, its just - that people usually don't do it 'only to watch the world burn'. The example was taken from a different thread - with a similar issue. I don't want to tell you how the world works. Sometimes I just want to present allegories. (Stories that seem similar, in maybe a context thats a little different.)



arcanine said:


> I have no moral qualms about revelling in the suffering of a monster who calculatedly trafficked children so that they can be raped over and over again. I think it would be immoral not to. If there isn't a horrifying punishment for this behaviour, then perhaps some people who might be considering it wouldn't think twice.


It can't be immoral not to derive pleasure from the suffering of another person. Because not all people do.

Now, your position is generally socially accepted. But then there is something about sharing that feeling with the public to get a "common/shared notion" of basking in someones suffering. We generally don't want that as a society. The second line you crossed was to feel deprived, once the other person died, because you (as per your argument), couldnt get enough of the suffering to feel - what you needed to feel.

So those sorts of feelings are normal or at least somewhat common. To try to connect in them with others, publicly is a little more problematic. To feel betrayed by someones death, because you couldn't see them suffer enough - is a little more over the line.

The point I would make is, that none of you getting pleasure out of it, actually would help the victims, or even potential victims in the future. So from that position as well, its hard to see your position as 'a moral one'.

Moral philosophy is not 'clear cut' though. So you could still be right and I could be wrong.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 18, 2019)

azoreseuropa said:


> The reason those people are pervert because of influence from porn. It made some people doing crazy things and disgusting things.


Please don't spread misinformation. People have been committing these acts millennia before porn existed.


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## spotanjo3 (Aug 18, 2019)

IncredulousP said:


> Please don't spread misinformation. People have been committing these acts millennia before porn existed.



I am talking about the future.. Not before that. It is much worse now after porn existed.


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## TheMrIron2 (Aug 18, 2019)

azoreseuropa said:


> I am talking about the future.. Not before that. It is much worse now after porn existed.


Did you read _any_ of the research notimp cited? His post completely debunks what you're saying.


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## notimp (Aug 18, 2019)

azoreseuropa said:


> I am talking about the future.. Not before that. It is much worse now after porn existed.


Actually no:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault

Google for:

correlation porn sexual violence

to find more sources.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 18, 2019)

azoreseuropa said:


> I am talking about the future.. Not before that. It is much worse now after porn existed.


You can't know the future. Additionally, there are yet to be many studies on long-term effects of sexual crime rate due to new-age pornography.

I do believe it is also necessary to mention: not all child molesters are pedophiles, and not all pedophiles are child molesters.

Rape is a serious offense and the prime motives are very complex, psychologically. It is not solely attraction that incites molestation by molesters.


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## arcanine (Aug 18, 2019)

notimp said:


> It can't be immoral not to derive pleasure from the suffering of another person. Because not all people do.


I didn't mean it was immoral not to derive pleasure from it. I meant it is immoral not to do it. Punishing behaviour which is unacceptable is how animal societies work. Canines, apes, dolphins, and lots of other later-evolving mammals will inflict pain on members of their pack in order to bring them in line. If they don't do it, there is less incentive for the pack to remain well-behaved and cohesive. Put another way, if there are no negative consequences to an action then an individual is more likely to do it if they are already inclined to do so, whereas if they know there is a chance of a horrible consequence to them of that action, then they might (attempt to) restrain themselves from that action. There is nothing immoral about imposing punishment under circumstances like this, and failing to punish behaviour like this is immoral as it increases the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated and therefore impacts negatively on the welfare of others. Taking pleasure from knowing that a disgusting act is being punished is cathartic yes, and this is important for the human psyche. Again, I do not consider this immoral as long as the punishment is proportionate to the action.



notimp said:


> Now, your position is generally socially accepted. But then there is something about sharing that feeling with the public to get a "common/shared notion" of basking in someones suffering.


You are assuming I share these views and attitudes with others. I don't. I don't need to know whether something is socially accepted or shared with the public, or a common/shared notion, to decide for myself whether or not I consider it to be moral. I make those decisions as an individual, not a member of a collective. It's what empathy is for. I don't need to negotiate morals with others because I can determine for myself whether or not my actions are harmful to others, and if that harm is necessary.



notimp said:


> We generally don't want that as a society. The second line you crossed was to feel deprived, once the other person died, because you (as per your argument), couldnt get enough of the suffering to feel - what you needed to feel.


Would you not consider it a miscarriage of justice if he were let off on a technicality and allowed to go free with no punishment? How is it any different to know that this happened because of suicide?



notimp said:


> So those sorts of feelings are normal or at least somewhat common. To try to connect in them with others, publicly is a little more problematic. To feel betrayed by someones death, because you couldn't see them suffer enough - is a little more over the line.


Again, I don't care if this is a line for others. If somebody has orchestrated the rape of children then I will openly acknowledge that I derive pleasure from knowing that they now are suffering as a result.



notimp said:


> The point I would make is, that none of you getting pleasure out of it, actually would help the victims, or even potential victims in the future. So from that position as well, its hard to see your position as 'a moral one'.


Ahh, I think I see the disconnect here. I am not feeling pleasure on my own behalf. It's not a sense of self-satisfaction that I KNOW that MY NEED for retribution was met. As you have said, it doesn't affect me at all either way as I don't know the victims or the perpetrator. But empathy allows me to take the perspective, to an extent, of the victims and the people who love them. And I know that THEY would be justified in feeling robbed of the knowledge that he is being punished for his actions, and I feel cheated on their behalf. The pleasure I feel in knowing a disgusting child rapist is now suffering is because I know that this will represent in some way reparations for the victims and their families.



notimp said:


> Moral philosophy is not 'clear cut' though. So you could still be right and I could be wrong.


Well there we definitely agree. I do not believe in objective morality, but I think that wellbeing is a reasonable basis for some shared understanding of morals. And a world without punishment would be contrary to wellbeing in my opinion.


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## EmulateLife (Aug 18, 2019)

I think porn can trigger certain individuals that are already sick in the head. There's this channel Court TV and they show entire trials here in U.S. One just finished in Florida where this 29 year old guy was obsessed with this porn cam model from Bulgeria, and he stole like 200k from his family and gave it to her. Then when they tried to stop him he murdered his mom, dad and brother. He thought he was in a relationship with this women.


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## notimp (Aug 18, 2019)

EmulateLife said:


> I think porn can trigger certain individuals that are already sick in the head.


Yes, potentially - but then they are very likely to get a 'release' shortly thereafter..  So the thing of 'obsessing about some thing that you might want, but dont have' - doesnt accumulate and doesnt amplify negative (harmful) thoughts in the same way. Because its actually interrupted by periods of feeling good.  I've not read into the theory of sex addiction (think David Duchovny ) so I dont know when for some people it becomes bothersome - but generally, its really not that much of a problem. 

If you look at the relationship between sex crime, and availability of porn in society.


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## notimp (Jan 16, 2020)

The department of public prosecution of the virgin islands currently sues the Epstein trust for compensation payments in cases where the accusation reads as follows:

The Billionaire had raped and held hostage up to a dozen children on the isle of Saint James during a period from 2001 to 2019. One such 15 year old women, according to the accusation papers, was abused by Epstein, and then tried to escape the Island swimming, was caught and held hostage again.

The accusations before Epsteins suicide only covered the period from 2002 to 2005.

Epstein owned two islands in the region, and according to the prosecution had created a professional network of human trafficking to get young women, between the ages of 12-17 onto the Islands by boat, helicopter, or plane.

Now - the attorney general of the Virgin Islands is sufficiently neutral by all accounts and the Virgin Islands if anything has an incentive not to get into the media with human trafficing again, so you ought to believe, that they have a case here. Presumption of innocence also isnt exactly applicable here, because the guy actually killed himself.

src: f.e.: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/15/jeffrey-epstein-virgin-islands-trafficking

What was the Trump quote again?

Trump called Epstein a ‘terrific guy’ who enjoyed ‘younger’ women before denying relationship with him
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1e0f00-a1be-11e9-bd56-eac6bb02d01d_story.html

How young Donald, how young exactly?


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## eyeliner (Jan 16, 2020)

notimp said:


> There you have your humanity. People sometimes only wait for excuses to bask in the suffering of others. Which they very happily will induce.
> 
> Understand, that I get just how effed up and wrong even just the part of what I read about his life was. But everytime someone tells me, I have children, so now I want to tell you about how I would have received joy from letting him rot, and was shortchanged by him killing himself, I think to myself - yes, this is also what society tries to prevent.
> 
> If you are personally connected to one of the victims - slightly different story. But you are not (statistically speaking). You are just sharing your violence fantasies with the world.



I apologise for the late intervention, but:
If any sonofabitch ever mistreated one of my children, wife, mother or brother, I'd make sure that same sonofabitch suffer, long and hard and I would have no problems in killing him myself, preferably with a whole lot of suffering on his/her part.

Some things are inexcusable (molesting / rape / murder / abuse), and I'd make pretty sure I'd have my time with that specific entity. In anyway, taking as long as it took, I'd find him and would have my way.

Yes, *I AM ALL YOU REGARD AS WRONG*. I bask in the suffering of molesters or any other that attacks women and children, or men. I love to know they suffer if they go to prison, preferably turned to bitches, ending in suicide later.

Yes, I am also human.


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## notimp (Jan 16, 2020)

And thats a white knight, gone too far (self justice, ...).

You have to take the anger out when it comes to punishment. (Rule of law, not rule of emotion, he said, or vendetta). For the perpetrator in this case (dozen to a hundred of child trafficing incidences, hindering investigations, ...) a life sentence was already the likely outcome.

You dont have to one up that with 'i'd have killed him personally'. The crimes already can't be undone.

Now what do we do with Donald Trump who had known about that guys reputation, not only did nothing, but visited his parties and gave him additional social reputation by giving statements to the media what a great guy he was?

(Part of the real answer is 'stop personalizing politics' btw.)


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## eyeliner (Jan 16, 2020)

Look, man... Donald Trump is an idiot, but is he a molester?
You can't lock up someone for being an idiot, but you can surely punish crimes. He'll have his due.


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## notimp (Jan 16, 2020)

Bringing him up in this context was a bit unfair, I agree.  I was just wondering, as he goes for Miss world participants, what qualifies as 'young' for him.. Still unfair, I know.


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## Viri (Jan 16, 2020)

Wow, I didn't realize how old this thread was, when it popped up in my feed. My first thought was, "wait, they're indicting a corpse on child sex trafficking charges?!" Are they going to do what they did to Pope Formosus to Epstein? Shit, I'd watch that!


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## notimp (Jan 16, 2020)

It pays to follow stories past the first two weeks of initial reporting. So sorry for necrobumping, but I might do that a few times for that.  You usually get a bigger picture that way. 

And yes, sorry its not always Trump this, Trump that...


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## eyeliner (Jan 16, 2020)

notimp said:


> Bringing him up in this context was a bit unfair, I agree.  I was just wondering, as he goes for Miss world participants, what qualifies as 'young' for him.. Still unfair, I know.


I know where you come from. No need to explain. I just hope to convey the message that sometimes justified rage happens sometimes. I just put up my own view. And I know I'd be perfectly capable to see it through.

The Trump thing was just the most known example, because a lot of rich friends of Eppstein's did the same.


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## IncredulousP (Jan 17, 2020)

eyeliner said:


> In anyway, taking as long as it took, I'd find him and would have my way.


This is vengeance, revenge. Not justice.
 It's because of this very mindset that we have established right to due trial.

What would you gain from further suffering? It may feel cathartic in the moment, but I guarantee it's fleeting. It won't undo the harm to your loved ones. It won't make that pain go away. You'll just carry more pain because of your actions.


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## eyeliner (Jan 17, 2020)

IncredulousP said:


> This is vengeance, revenge. Not justice.
> It's because of this very mindset that we have established right to due trial.
> 
> What would you gain from further suffering? It may feel cathartic in the moment, but I guarantee it's fleeting. It won't undo the harm to your loved ones. It won't make that pain go away. You'll just carry more pain because of your actions.


Then I hope we agree to disagree?


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## Taleweaver (Jan 17, 2020)

Heh... When I saw this thread bumped, I thought you heard the same story on the news : Eppstein's death has been investigated. He's been strangled. So this theory of suicide... Is dat 'can go straight out of the window', but I'm sure that these findings will be denied and /or discussed until nobody cares anymore.


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## arcanine (Jan 17, 2020)

IncredulousP said:


> This is vengeance, revenge. Not justice.


Personally I believe there is a limit to the extent to which people are deserving of justice.


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## notimp (Jan 19, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> Heh... When I saw this thread bumped, I thought you heard the same story on the news : Eppstein's death has been investigated. He's been strangled. So this theory of suicide... Is dat 'can go straight out of the window', but I'm sure that these findings will be denied and /or discussed until nobody cares anymore.


Uh, nice. 

NYT has the rebuttal: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-homicide-autopsy-michael-baden.html



> *Epstein’s Autopsy ‘Points to Homicide,’ Pathologist Hired by Brother Claims*
> The New York City medical examiner strongly disputed the claim that evidence from the autopsy suggested strangulation.
> 
> Published Oct. 30, 2019Updated Oct. 31, 2019
> ...



Well, at least my assessment, that the fame seeker pathologist was not payed off was correct..


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## notimp (May 28, 2020)

Netflix has published a documentary series, where the victims are given a voice.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12312250/

The legal procedure for unknow reasons took 25 years. Enough said.


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## notimp (Jun 30, 2020)

Weee.. lets play a name game! 



Primary source accuses former israeli prime minister, hedge fund managers, an unknown foreign president, governors, senate majority leaders, the owner of a french hotel chain and others of having slept with her after being handed over to them by Esptein. Now thats how good conspiracy theories start..  

edit: Better sources for the accusations:
https://www.businessinsider.com/ins...inia-roberts-unsealed-memoir-2019-8?r=DE&IR=T
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epstein-unsealed-documents-name-powerful-men-in-sex-ring


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## notimp (Jul 7, 2020)

Now this (former reddit CEO tweet) is how good conspiracy theories start - Part 2:


Ghislaine Maxwell is arrested by now btw. (Was captured in Bradford, New Hampshire).


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## notimp (Jul 8, 2020)

She literally was picked up in her own vacation home. So why didn't she flee? Because she has federal immunity granted related to most possible charges.

(interesting part starts around the midpoint of the video)


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## notimp (Sep 28, 2020)

New Documentary is out. (Havent seen it.)

"Surviving Jeffrey Epstein" on Lifetime, four part series.


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