# Can someone explain to me the importance of Pride parades.



## yusuo (Jul 1, 2019)

Im all for equal opportunities for all, man/woman/gay/straight/other. However I've never seen the point of pride parades, my main argument is lgbt peeps want to be a place where theyre equal but throw big spectacles where they're the centre of attention.

I know this is just my naivety as a straight male and without knowing anyone on a close personal level where the importance can be explained to me I resort to asking the forum as I know as we have a diverse community here.

Just for the record, I'm all for equal rights, what a person does in their own life's shouldn't affect anyone but them as long as people aren't hurting each other (without consent) alls good with me.


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## Lacius (Jul 1, 2019)

yusuo said:


> Im all for equal opportunities for all, man/woman/gay/straight/other. However I've never seen the point of pride parades, my main argument is lgbt peeps want to be a place where theyre equal but throw big spectacles where they're the centre of attention.
> 
> I know this is just my naivety as a straight male and without knowing anyone on a close personal level where the importance can be explained to me I resort to asking the forum as I know as we have a diverse community here.
> 
> Just for the record, I'm all for equal rights, what a person does in their own life's shouldn't affect anyone but them as long as people aren't hurting each other (without consent) alls good with me.


For much of history, LGBT people have been met with violence and discrimination. They've been told to deny who they are or to at least hide it. Pride parades are a counterprotest to that, symbolizing the famous phrase, "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it."

Without pride and pride parades, basic LGBT identity would be challenged.


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## Minox (Jul 3, 2019)

I think once upon a time pride festivals served a point, but the way they have evolved into flaunting sexual fetishes makes me wonder if this is how most LGBT people want to be viewed or if maybe just maybe they want to live like just about anyone else.


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## Lacius (Jul 3, 2019)

Minox said:


> I think once upon a time pride festivals served a point, but the way they have evolved into flaunting sexual fetishes makes me wonder if this is how most LGBT people want to be viewed or if maybe just maybe they want to live like just about anyone else.


Pride parades still serve the same purpose I outlined above. LGBT identity and LGBT rights are still being actively challenged. LGBT discrimination is still rampant. Violence against LGBT individuals is an epidemic. Homophobia isn't over.


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## SuperDan (Jul 3, 2019)

the whole LGBT thing at the moment is more business related than ever .. for the last month LGBT EVERYTHING ... its basically a marketing scheme
its not about PEOPLE its about money .... be gay/straight/zir /sis/ whatever its fine but ... a MONTH thats bullshit .... veterans should get a  month of respect  i was in the army 6 years ..... i think its simply madness


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## Lacius (Jul 3, 2019)

SuperDan said:


> the whole LGBT thing at the moment is more business related than ever .. for the last month LGBT EVERYTHING ... its basically a marketing scheme
> its not about PEOPLE its about money .... be gay/straight/zir /sis/ whatever its fine but ... a MONTH thats bullshit .... veterans should get a  month of respect  i was in the army 6 years ..... i think its simply madness


Corporations have co-opted Pride for profit, but that doesn't detract from the need for Pride.

Edit: Also, veterans get a month, too.


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## Dartz150 (Jul 3, 2019)

SuperDan said:


> the whole LGBT thing at the moment is more business related than ever .. for the last month LGBT EVERYTHING ... its basically a marketing scheme
> its not about PEOPLE its about money .... be gay/straight/zir /sis/ whatever its fine but ... a MONTH thats bullshit .... veterans should get a  month of respect  i was in the army 6 years ..... i think its simply madness


^This.

For me it has lost it's meaning since some LGBT people (not all) just go to the parades to show everyone their ugly and furry coloured ball sacks.


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## SuperDan (Jul 3, 2019)

Dartz150 said:


> ^This.
> 
> For me it has lost it's meaning since some LGBT people (not all) just go to the parades to show everyone their ugly and furry coloured ball sacks.


Exactly that too ... or its becoming a joke ...  im from London .. but have lived in USA for 7 years now ..... & they have full blown transsexuals " Flamers " reading to 3-6 year olds in the Library... Im Not ready to explain why to my sons ..does a man feel like a woman ect ect ..... and dress like one ..  i dont think they should have to deal with it as a child ..lifes already confusing as a kid


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## Lacius (Jul 3, 2019)

SuperDan said:


> Exactly that too ... or its becoming a joke ...  im from London .. but have lived in USA for 7 years now ..... & they have full blown transsexuals " Flamers " reading to 3-6 year olds in the Library... Im Not ready to explain why to my sons ..does a man feel like a woman ect ect ..... and dress like one ..  i dont think they should have to deal with it as a child ..lifes already confusing as a kid


This is the kind of LGBT erasure that keeps Pride relevant.


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## yusuo (Jul 3, 2019)

Lacius said:


> This is the kind of LGBT erasure that keeps Pride relevant.





SuperDan said:


> Exactly that too ... or its becoming a joke ...  im from London .. but have lived in USA for 7 years now ..... & they have full blown transsexuals " Flamers " reading to 3-6 year olds in the Library... Im Not ready to explain why to my sons ..does a man feel like a woman ect ect ..... and dress like one ..  i dont think they should have to deal with it as a child ..lifes already confusing as a kid


Yeah, I don't agree with you super Dan, the sooner its explained to a child the more likely they will consider it normal, hiding it instills distrust, instills bigatory and instills exclusion.

As soon as they ask, tell but sure as hell don't hide them from the situation, I didn't hide anything from my kids, when they stumbled into a situation, I talked to them.


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## SuperDan (Jul 3, 2019)

Lacius said:


> This is the kind of LGBT erasure that keeps Pride relevant.


We Live in a Backward Mentality World .. These Days PC Correct Nonsense ... its just arseholey people who just love to argue over anything and everything at all LGBT ..Bacon ... Trump Blah Blah Blahhh its just middle class grown up living at home with their parents ... just dying to be something important for the EGO !!....   wanna make a change ..do something & no not a shitty protest again .... where we all have a lovely lunch afterward and talk about it for the rest of the year ...DO Something .... Become something not a arsehole moaning about everything ....

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



yusuo said:


> Yeah, I don't agree with you super Dan, the sooner its explained to a child the more likely they will consider it normal, hiding it instills distrust, instills bigatory and instills exclusion.
> 
> As soon as they ask, tell but sure as hell don't hide them from the situation


nah kids are too young to be exposed to it... they will encounter it sooner or later ..... its just life ,,,..


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## Stwert (Jul 7, 2019)

Simple really, to raise awareness and have a damn good party


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## Drak0rex (Jul 8, 2019)

Stwert said:


> Simple really, to raise awareness and have a damn good party


Yes, we're aware gay people exist. Let us now move on to more important issues than
 what people like to do with their genitals.


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## DinohScene (Jul 8, 2019)

Take it from an actual gay guy.
Pride parades are dumb.

If anything they invoke more discrimination, idiots dressing up as peacocks sucking rubber dicks all day isn't a way to say "I'm xxxxsexual".
If it wasn't for the double mars symbol tattoo'd on me chest, you likely wouldn't know I was gay.


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## yusuo (Jul 8, 2019)

DinohScene said:


> Take it from an actual gay guy.
> Pride parades are dumb.
> 
> If anything they invoke more discrimination, idiots dressing up as peacocks sucking rubber dicks all day isn't a way to say "I'm xxxxsexual".
> If it wasn't for the double mars symbol tattoo'd on me chest, you likely wouldn't know I was gay.


Thanks dinoh, this was my thoughts, a way for an individual group of people to fit in, in my opinion isn't by shining a spotlight on it. 

It's a hard one to answer really as I do get the positive side, to bring the conversation out of the closet so to speak, but it seems counter productive to the point at hand.


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## Virtual-Wii-noob (Jul 8, 2019)

Minox said:


> I think once upon a time pride festivals served a point, but the way they have evolved into flaunting sexual fetishes makes me wonder if this is how most LGBT people want to be viewed or if maybe just maybe they want to live like just about anyone else.


yeah i'm not LGBT myself but someone i know who is said that they don't do pride festivals and all that because they just want to live like all the rest of us but just love different people


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## Lucifer666 (Jul 8, 2019)

SuperDan said:


> why to my sons ..does a man feel like a woman ect ect ..... and dress like one ..  i dont think they should have to deal with it as a child ..lifes already confusing as a kid



You mean why a woman might have some male secondary sex characteristics? Your kids will not give a damn unless you are the one making it weird and taboo for them. Cry me a river. They will have much bigger problems to deal with. How DARE someone doing her best to live as her true self take up something like reading to kids, am I right? Do you want all trans people to be locked up in a basement away from sight?



SuperDan said:


> wanna make a change ..do something & no not a shitty protest again .... where we all have a lovely lunch afterward and talk about it for the rest of the year ...DO Something .... Become something not a arsehole moaning about everything ....



What the hell do you mean by 'do something' if not making a point to the world via a march/protest? How is that not 'doing something'?



DinohScene said:


> Take it from an actual gay guy.
> Pride parades are dumb.
> 
> If anything they invoke more discrimination, idiots dressing up as peacocks sucking rubber dicks all day isn't a way to say "I'm xxxxsexual".
> If it wasn't for the double mars symbol tattoo'd on me chest, you likely wouldn't know I was gay.



You are obviously valid for thinking the way that you do, but you should at least be aware that the vast majority of LGBT+ people do not share the same stance (myself included). I make an effort and a big scene at pride every year, and I love it. You are not necessarily better for wanting to appease the cis/straight people who are grossed out by pride (and who are subsequently the reason pride events are important.)


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## yusuo (Jul 8, 2019)

Lucifer666 said:


> You mean why a woman might have some male secondary sex characteristics? Your kids will not give a damn unless you are the one making it weird and taboo for them. Cry me a river. They will have much bigger problems to deal with. How DARE someone doing her best to live as her true self take up something like reading to kids, am I right? Do you want all trans people to be locked up in a basement away from sight?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi lucifer, you're probably can give a decent opinion in this case then, can you advise me how marching in pride, and I guess in a sense identifying who you are at a scale be productive in the fight for equality and acceptance and in turn manage the ability to fit in and be anonymous while maintaining who you are.


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## DinohScene (Jul 8, 2019)

Lucifer666 said:


> You are obviously valid for thinking the way that you do, but you should at least be aware that the vast majority of LGBT+ people do not share the same stance (myself included). I make an effort and a big scene at pride every year, and I love it. You are not necessarily better for wanting to appease the cis/straight people who are grossed out by pride (and who are subsequently the reason pride events are important.)



I personally am against pride parades, homosexuality should be as normal as heterosexuality.
There shouldn't be a need for parades really.

But no, I don't want to appease anyone lol.
If people don't like me then that's their fucking problem.


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## eyeliner (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Without pride and pride parades, basic LGBT identity would be challenged.


I personally disagree with that particular stance. Yes, I'm straight. But does that matter?
Parades seems baffling because they fight against their original intended purpose. Someone flaunting fairy wings, with heavy makeup, while showing a beer belly in tight clothing are not there to make a stand. They are ripe to ridicule.

My point is, why are they making a cosplay if they are not like that every day? There's carnival for that.

And also, now that we are on the subject, should someone care if other people are gay? Why do gay people need to come out of the closet? Who put them there? I find this kind of thing confusing, because straight people don't make a press note about it.

Your freedom as a gay person fades as soon as you give explanations to others (excluding mom and dad, of course). Just be. Live and go out with your partner. Or do you need to tell the world that you love someone because your genitalia match? Let the world adapt to you instead of the other way around.

That kind of social inertia needs to disappear ASAP.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 8, 2019)

Lucifer666 said:


> You are not necessarily better for wanting to appease the cis/straight people who are grossed out by pride (and who are subsequently the reason pride events are important.)



The same could be said about those taking part in the "parades" and acting the way they do. I feel that these events used to have some significant meaning and aimed to incite change and enlighten those who didn't understand that culture. Nowadays it just seems that it's all a show and an excuse for people to make a scene.


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## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

eyeliner said:


> Someone flaunting fairy wings, with heavy makeup, while showing a beer belly in tight clothing are not there to make a stand. They are ripe to ridicule.





eyeliner said:


> Why do gay people need to come out of the closet?


These comments demonstrate the need for Pride.



eyeliner said:


> Let the world adapt to you instead of the other way around.


That's the purpose of Pride.


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## eyeliner (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> These comments demonstrate the need for Pride.
> 
> 
> That's the purpose of Pride.


Why? I sincerely ask, because I fail to see a validation in those parades.

I know, for instance that I shock people by being so uncaring about one's sexuality (seriously, people already told me that). I just don't care who you love, I love you regardless. So maybe I have a bit of a defect in grasping the needs for such marches.

So, Lucius, considering that you seem to be a better enlightened person than I am (I am dumb in these matters, for sure) could you please explain to me a bit why are these a need? Not that they disturb me, though... I just find some people there have a bad taste in clothing...


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## Stwert (Jul 8, 2019)

Drak0rex said:


> Yes, we're aware gay people exist. Let us now move on to more important issues than
> what people like to do with their genitals.



It was intended to be tongue in cheek, just so I could segue into the joke about it being a party.

Personally I don’t give a damn who does what, and with which, and to whom. Live and let live.


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## Nerdtendo (Jul 8, 2019)

SuperDan said:


> We Live in a Backward Mentality World .. These Days PC Correct Nonsense ... its just arseholey people who just love to argue over anything and everything at all LGBT ..Bacon ... Trump Blah Blah Blahhh its just middle class grown up living at home with their parents ... just dying to be something important for the EGO !!....   wanna make a change ..do something & no not a shitty protest again .... where we all have a lovely lunch afterward and talk about it for the rest of the year ...DO Something .... Become something not a arsehole moaning about everything ....
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



How do you handle the current political climate of America with kids? I'm almost 18 years old. In 5-6 years, I'll probably have little ones of my own (which I'm super stoked about). I'm really nervous on how to keep them on the straight and narrow as they're growing up. Once they mature, they can make whatever choice they make and I'll always love them, but when they 8, 9, 10... anywhere around that age, I don't want them to be exposed to the pressure of having to pick a sexuality.


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## yusuo (Jul 8, 2019)

Nerdtendo said:


> How do you handle the current political climate of America with kids? I'm almost 18 years old. In 5-6 years, I'll probably have little ones of my own (which I'm super stoked about). I'm really nervous on how to keep them on the straight and narrow as they're growing up. Once they mature, they can make whatever choice they make and I'll always love them, but when they 8, 9, 10... anywhere around that age, I don't want them to be exposed to the pressure of having to pick a sexuality.


That reads as if sexuality is a choice that must be made, surely its something you just know and as such as long as they feel comfortable informing you of who they are, with the same comfortablity as whether informing you that spongebob is better than adventure time then there is no conundrum to worry about


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## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

I'll take each comment piece by piece.



eyeliner said:


> Someone flaunting fairy wings


"Fairy" is, historically, a derogatory term for gay men. Fairy wings a.) reclaim the term, and b.) serve as a counterprotest to the challenging of LGBT identity. By saying people shouldn't wear fairy wings is to, metaphorically, put someone back into the closet.



eyeliner said:


> with heavy makeup


Makeup, drag, etc. also serve as a counterprotest to the challenging of LGBT identity. By saying people shouldn't wear heavy makeup, you're (ignoring the inherent idiom) literally saying to go back into the closet.



eyeliner said:


> They are ripe to ridicule.


The fact that you think it's okay to ridicule appropriate presentations of LGBT identity that serve as a political counterprotest to LGBT erasure/denial is homophobic, whether you intended to do it or not.

It's also okay for people to just have fun.



eyeliner said:


> My point is, why are they making a cosplay if they are not like that every day?


Exaggeration is an effective counterprotest. That's also like saying, "Why do a parade if you're not going to do a parade everyday?"



eyeliner said:


> There's carnival for that.


A carnival doesn't deal with the issues of LGBT rights and identity, so you're missing the point of Pride.



eyeliner said:


> And also, now that we are on the subject, should someone care if other people are gay?


No one should be bothered by it, if that's what you mean by "care," but it's also part of one's identity.

That's like saying that no one should care if I'm male. It's true that no one should be bothered by it, and it's true that no one should dwell on my sex and gender too long, but being male is also an important part of my identity, and a person who doesn't know that I'm male can't know me as well as someone who does know that I'm male.

Given the aforementioned issues with the denial of LGBT identity and LGBT-erasure, it's also extremely important for people to know about one's LGBT identity. For example, if you don't know anyone who is openly gay because nobody talks about it, then the plight of the gay community is just as invisible.



eyeliner said:


> Why do gay people need to come out of the closet?


In addition to the aforementioned LGBT identity issues above, gay people often need to come out of the closet because they are outwardly indistinguishable from straight people. Black identity is important to people of color, but they usually don't need to come out because it's outwardly apparent.



eyeliner said:


> Who put them there? I find this kind of thing confusing, because straight people don't make a press note about it.


Society put LGBT people into the closet because the assumption (rightfully or not) is that someone is straight, since so many people are straight. If we didn't assume a person's sexual orientation, identity, etc., then everyone would have to come out.

Straight people don't have to come out because they fit the default assumption, so there's no misinformation to correct.



eyeliner said:


> Your freedom as a gay person fades as soon as you give explanations to others


I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but if a person loses any freedoms from coming out to others, then there's a problem, and that problem is more than enough reason for the need for Pride.



eyeliner said:


> Just be. Live and go out with your partner.


The aforementioned discrimination against LGBT people, violence against LGBT people, prejudice against LGBT people, and LGBT-erasure are obstacles that get in the way of this goal, hence the need for Pride. Certain people don't want to let LGBT people "just be." That's the point.



eyeliner said:


> Or do you need to tell the world that you love someone because your genitalia match?


Saying a person shouldn't acknowledge to the world that he or she loves someone with similar genitalia is LGBT-erasure, and you can read above for the issues that brings.



eyeliner said:


> Let the world adapt to you instead of the other way around.


The world cannot adapt to LGBT people if they're invisible, hence the need for coming out, Pride, etc.



eyeliner said:


> That kind of social inertia needs to disappear ASAP.


Then you should be an LGBT ally and support Pride.



eyeliner said:


> I know, for instance that I shock people by being so uncaring about one's sexuality (seriously, people already told me that).


It's one thing to not be bothered by it, if that's what you mean by "care." It's another thing to be blasé about it as if it's unimportant to the person's identity. You can see above for why straight people don't have to come out.



eyeliner said:


> I just don't care who you love


That sounds inconsiderate and as if you don't care about someone. Imagine saying that to your friend after he tells you he's seriously dating a new woman or getting married.



eyeliner said:


> So, Lucius


I guess a person's identity really isn't important to you, because that's not my name. 



eyeliner said:


> I just find some people there have a bad taste in clothing...


Throwing shade about people's stylistic choices? Perhaps you belong in the Pride Parade.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jul 8, 2019)

yusuo said:


> That reads as if sexuality is a choice that must be made, surely its something you just know and as such as long as they feel comfortable informing you of who they are, with the same comfortablity as whether informing you that spongebob is better than adventure time then there is no conundrum to worry about


Exactly. It's part of who you are. The pressure lies in the social expectancy. However, that's not important nor crucial to you and yours. The choice is whether or not you accept yourself.


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## yusuo (Jul 8, 2019)

Memoir said:


> Exactly. It's part of who you are. The pressure lies in the social expectancy. However, that's not important nor crucial to you and yours. The choice is whether or not you accept yourself.


And unfortunately whether you accept yourself or not is currently dictated by the reactions and feelings of those around you, and I'm starting to get the point of pride now.

Yes it's been commercialised and blown up to be bigger than the original message a little but I guess the underlying meaning is saying its ok to feel the way you do, you're not the only one.

This thread has been eye opening for me, thanks all


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## Nerdtendo (Jul 8, 2019)

yusuo said:


> That reads as if sexuality is a choice that must be made, surely its something you just know and as such as long as they feel comfortable informing you of who they are, with the same comfortablity as whether informing you that spongebob is better than adventure time then there is no conundrum to worry about


Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that something like this should come naturally and not forced upon by social pressures. Growing up. I played soccer. I hated soccer but I played because that's what everyone did. No one was trying to pressure me into doing it, but as an 8 year old just trying to do his best, I didn't realize that no one would dislike me if I didn't play soccer.

Same mindset here. Children (and probably my children specifically) don't understand a whole lot. They will never think for themselves and if society starts to lean towards "gay is the way" they'll suddenly decide they're gay without really understanding what that means.

Does that make any sense?


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## yusuo (Jul 8, 2019)

It does, and I see what you're saying, if the expectation is straight then straight thoughts will prevail as is the norm, and vice versa.

What the movement should accomplish is an equilibrium between the two and ultimately dissolve any expection of sexuality, leaving any choice to be a naturally conceived decision, without any outside influence regardless.


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## Nerdtendo (Jul 8, 2019)

yusuo said:


> It does, and I see what you're saying, if the expectation is straight then straight thoughts will prevail as is the norm, and vice versa.
> 
> What the movement should accomplish is an equilibrium between the two and ultimately dissolve any expection of sexuality, leaving any choice to be a naturally conceived decision, without any outside influence regardless.


I think that's the best outcome but it seems pretty unlikely. People push agendas


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## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

Nerdtendo said:


> Not what I'm saying. I'm saying that something like this should come naturally and not forced upon by social pressures. Growing up. I played soccer. I hated soccer but I played because that's what everyone did. No one was trying to pressure me into doing it, but as an 8 year old just trying to do his best, I didn't realize that no one would dislike me if I didn't play soccer.
> 
> Same mindset here. Children (and probably my children specifically) don't understand a whole lot. They will never think for themselves and if society starts to lean towards "gay is the way" they'll suddenly decide they're gay without really understanding what that means.
> 
> Does that make any sense?


There's quite a difference between "gay is a possibility" and "gay is the way." The former makes it so LGBT youth don't feel isolated, and it doesn't affect straight youth. The latter doesn't exist, and if it did, it wouldn't actually change anyone's sexuality. "Straight is the way," which is the default, doesn't make gay kids straight, for example.

Exposing children to Pride can't/won't make them any more likely to be LGBT. There's also nothing wrong with being LGBT.


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## MasterXD34 (Jul 8, 2019)

eyeliner said:


> I personally disagree with that particular stance. Yes, I'm straight. But does that matter?
> Parades seems baffling because they fight against their original intended purpose. Someone flaunting fairy wings, with heavy makeup, while showing a beer belly in tight clothing are not there to make a stand. They are ripe to ridicule.
> 
> My point is, why are they making a cosplay if they are not like that every day? There's carnival for that.
> ...



*Yes, I agree with your statement, however so people who are LGBT might want to tell others, because they want to let others know that they are gay, and what not. Basically they will feel out of place because they never expressed who they were as a person. I wish I can give a better understanding.*


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## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

The point of any parade is to force your ideas down someone else's throat. Trump did it with the military display during the Fourth of July just like Hitler did back in World War II. A mighty display that can't be ignored. That's the whole intention of a parade, to make people look. It always makes me wonder about the people that try so hard to be noticed. Kind of sad. Like it or not people get. uncomfortable with the subject of sexuality.  To make a big display in spite of that fact is selfish and childish. How would the average person react if I walked around with my girl feigning sex in the middle of anywhere? Telling them that "it's a natural thing and it doesn't matter what you think, I have a right to express myself." It's just selfish. And the whole pride thing has become a commercial success so you can expect to see more and more of it. I used to think we need a straight parade but who wants to see that? Probably just as many people that want to see some weirdo dressed up like a giant butterfly with dicks sticking out of his head for antenna. I'm okay with people doing whatever they want on their own. And I'm okay with people expressing themselves to a point but the minute you force me to watch something i don't want to see you become an oppressor as well. Everybody's oppressed. I'm a white guy but I get told "you'll never understand it because you're a man" or I get told "it's a black thing you couldn't understand it" if I said to anybody "It's a white thing you can't participate"  what do you think would happen?  Or you can't do it because you are a woman? Holy shit. I've lived in the San Francisco Bay Area all my life, If I ever pulled some shit like that there would be a lynch-mob outside my house or at least a YouTube campaign against me. But people can walk around saying  just about anything they want about white guys around here and all they might get is "Oh that's cold."  I know I haven't had a raw deal or anything I'm just saying everybody has their own oppressors. Why must you fight everywhere you go? Your argument loses steam the more you complain. The crazy old man screaming at the light post might actually know something, but who cares he's a crazy old man screaming at a light post. Sexuality does not have to be something you advertise 24/7.  Do what you want at home, and leave me alone. And flamers, I'm sorry you guys but I don't see how acting feminine and semi brainless is cool or sexy to anybody. I can't stand women that will act that way either. Fucking anoying. A moron is a moron. Have a little self-respect. Stop acting so stupid and just be a person . Everything doesn't have to be about your sexuality. Kinda more like an obsession isn't it? It's kind of like a little kid that insists on dressing up as Batman all the time no matter where they go or else they throw a bitch fit. It wasn't appropriate at your Aunt Sally's funeral and it's not appropriate to dress however you want as an adult either. I'm all for being a weirdo, normal is a boring lie, you just don't have a right to make everybody around you uncomfortable all the time just because you find it liberating or fun. Get life.  And Pride isn't exclusive to LGBTADXYZs. Just saying.


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## Hanafuda (Jul 8, 2019)

PRIDE, i.e. being proud, is a really poor choice of words for what it's about. I suppose it came from 'black pride' a few decades ago, but that too was a poor choice of words. Pride is for something one has accomplished. Be proud of the result of hard work, of succeeding at a goal. A person really shouldn't be proud of the circumstances of their birth, regardless of whether it was wealthy, poor, tall, short, black, white, gay, straight, smart, stupid, etc. 

But that doesn't mean there's no value in the LGBT community having a celebratory event. I was at the parade in Manhattan last week (just a spectator, and just by chance as I was there on vacation) and it was a very positive and 'mentally-healthy' event. But as prejudices against homosexuality wane, there shouldn't be a need to continue holding it forever. Just because you _want_ to parade around in public in leather gear with your dong on display doesn't mean you're entitled to do so.


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## AmandaRose (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> The point of any parade is to force your ideas down someone else's throat.



Actually the point of Pride is to commemorate the events of the Stonewall Riots that took place between June 28 – July 3, 1969 and to make sure they never happen again. For those that don't know what happened several police offices raided the Stonewall Inn for zero reason other than the beat the shit out of gay and transgender people simply because they were gay or transgender. The police officers involved had not been ordered there by their superiors they had simply made the decision themselves to go and bash the patrons of the Stonewall Inn.

What happened next was the whole of Greenwich Village not only the lgbt community but also the straight community joined together in protest at the police brutally of the lgbt community. This lasted for several days and actually led to vital changes and laws being made by the police  and the American government.


One year later an event was formed to remember all the people that stood up for the rights of the lgbt community.

This event was called. The Christopher Street Liberation Day. This is the event we now know as pride.

It is a shame that not many people actually know about the Stonewall riots and that includes people in the lgbt community not actually knowing what pride is truly about sadly.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> The point of any parade is to force your ideas down someone else's throat.


Sure, but that doesn't mean that all parades are equal. Some are good ideas, and some are bad ideas.



mikefor20 said:


> Trump did it with the military display during the Fourth of July just like Hitler did back in World War II. A mighty display that can't be ignored.


Those are examples of bad parades. It doesn't mean all parades are bad.



mikefor20 said:


> That's the whole intention of a parade, to make people look.


Sure, but that doesn't say anything about whether or not the parade is good.



mikefor20 said:


> It always makes me wonder about the people that try so hard to be noticed.


See my previous posts on the history of LGBT discrimination, LGBT violence, and the denial of LGBT identity. In a nutshell, there wouldn't be progress on LGBT rights if LGBT individuals were invisible.



mikefor20 said:


> Kind of sad.


I think homophobia is what's sad.



mikefor20 said:


> Like it or not people get. uncomfortable with the subject of sexuality.


People get uncomfortable with the subject of race, but that doesn't mean we should ignore race issues.



mikefor20 said:


> To make a big display in spite of that fact is selfish and childish.


To deny LGBT identity is what's selfish and childish.



mikefor20 said:


> How would the average person react if I walked around with my girl feigning sex in the middle of anywhere?



People largely aren't feigning sex, so that's a false analogy.
You doing anything in the middle of the street that's supposed to be analogous to Pride would be ridiculous without context.



mikefor20 said:


> Telling them that "it's a natural thing and it doesn't matter what you think, I have a right to express myself."


When it comes to LGBT identity (not "feigning sex in the middle of the street"), that's a perfectly acceptable sentiment to have.



mikefor20 said:


> It's just selfish.


I guess it technically is. People of color wanting to end slavery was technically selfish. That doesn't mean it's bad.



mikefor20 said:


> And the whole pride thing has become a commercial success so you can expect to see more and more of it.


It's a good thing that there's going to be more. That's how it should be.



mikefor20 said:


> I used to think we need a straight parade


Why?

Everyday is straight pride.
LGBT pride is a counterprotest to LGBT discrimination, violence and erasure.
Straight pride isn't a counterprotest to anything (other than gay pride).



mikefor20 said:


> but who wants to see that? Probably just as many people that want to see some weirdo dressed up like a giant butterfly with dicks sticking out of his head for antenna.


More people probably want to see the latter.



mikefor20 said:


> I'm okay with people doing whatever they want on their own.


This statement is why Pride needs to exist. You're basically saying, "I'm okay with people doing whatever they want as long as it's in the closet." It's a homophobic denial of LGBT identity.



mikefor20 said:


> And I'm okay with people expressing themselves to a point but the minute you force me to watch something i don't want to see you become an oppressor as well.


Nobody is requiring you to go to Pride. In addition, in a public space, you do not have the right to only see things you want to see. That's just silly. There is nothing oppressive about Pride. Pride is a counterprotest to oppression.



mikefor20 said:


> Everybody's oppressed. I'm a white guy but I get told "you'll never understand it because you're a man" or I get told "it's a black thing you couldn't understand it" if I said to anybody "It's a white thing you can't participate"  what do you think would happen?  Or you can't do it because you are a woman? Holy shit. I've lived in the San Francisco Bay Area all my life, If I ever pulled some shit like that there would be a lynch-mob outside my house or at least a YouTube campaign against me. But people can walk around saying  just about anything they want about white guys around here and all they might get is "Oh that's cold."  I know I haven't had a raw deal or anything I'm just saying everybody has their own oppressors.


White people are not systemically oppressed, and men are not systemically oppressed. It's not at all comparable to, for example, LGBT oppression.



mikefor20 said:


> Why must you fight everywhere you go? Your argument loses steam the more you complain. The crazy old man screaming at the light post might actually know something, but who cares he's a crazy old man screaming at a light post.


You don't seem to understand that oppressed minorities had to fight hard for every right they have, and complacency inevitably leads to the rollback of those hard-fought rights. Someone who is not part of a group that has faced systemic oppression might not understand. Pride is what led to LGBT rights, and there's still a lot of progress to be made.



mikefor20 said:


> Sexuality does not have to be something you advertise 24/7.


Except it is something that's advertised 24/7. The fact that you are male is probably advertised 24/7, but you don't see me telling you to hide your sex or gender.

There are many aspects of our personalities that are advertised 24/7: race, gender, etc. LGBT identity is just as much an important part of one's personality, and it needs to be acknowledged. You don't feel like it needs to be because you are straight, and straight is the default assumption.



mikefor20 said:


> And flamers, I'm sorry you guys but I don't see how acting feminine and semi brainless is cool or sexy to anybody. I can't stand women that will act that way either. Fucking anoying. A moron is a moron. Have a little self-respect. Stop acting so stupid and just be a person .


There's a LOT to unpack here.

Being feminine isn't an act. Asking a gay person to act less feminine is like asking you to act feminine; those are the acts, they're not going to come naturally, and they're also pointless.
Calling a gay man who acts feminine a "flamer" is historically a homophobic slur.
There is nothing wrong with a man being feminine.
Saying a gay man shouldn't act feminine is also sexist, since the implication is that there's something wrong with being feminine.
Comparing femininity to brainlessness is sexist for obvious reasons.
Saying you can't stand women who act feminine is also sexist for obvious reasons.
Saying that being feminine is contrary to "just being a person" is the objectification of femininity, which is sexist for obivious reasons.



mikefor20 said:


> Everything doesn't have to be about your sexuality. Kinda more like an obsession isn't it?


Can you imagine saying the same thing about race? "Stop acting so black. Everything doesn't have to be about your race. Kinda more like an obsession, isn't it?" Sexuality is a part of one's identity, and you express your sexualty too. Also, see above for the need for Pride when it comes to LGBT sexuality.



mikefor20 said:


> It's kind of like a little kid that insists on dressing up as Batman all the time no matter where they go or else they throw a bitch fit. It wasn't appropriate at your Aunt Sally's funeral and it's not appropriate to dress however you want as an adult either.


I don't remember seeing butterfly-dick-antennas at Aunt's Sally's funeral, so I don't know what your point is here.

On topic, I think a kid dressing as Batman at Pride is a great idea.



mikefor20 said:


> I'm all for being a weirdo


As long as it's in the closet.



mikefor20 said:


> normal is a boring lie


You're asking LGBT people to lie by omission (or even explicitly lie).



mikefor20 said:


> you just don't have a right to make everybody around you uncomfortable all the time just because you find it liberating or fun.



You don't have to go to Pride.
If a person makes you uncomfortable because he (or she) is too feminine, outwardly gay, black, etc., that's your hangup and your problem. The right of the minority to express his or her identity far outweighs your right to not be uncomfortable in a public space. I'm sure some people here are uncomfortable with your toxic masculinity, but I don't think anyone is going to argue against your freedom to express your identity.



mikefor20 said:


> Get life.


You're the one obsessing over other people's lives, not them.



mikefor20 said:


> And Pride isn't exclusive to LGBTADXYZs. Just saying.



No, pride (little p) is not exclusive to the LGBT community.
Pride (big P) typically refers to the LGBT counter protest against the aforementioned homophobia.
Your use of a lot of (fake) letters on the LGBT acronym disparages the LGBT community if you're implying that it's not an important group that should be taken seriously.



Hanafuda said:


> PRIDE, i.e. being proud, is a really poor choice of words for what it's about. I suppose it came from 'black pride' a few decades ago, but that too was a poor choice of words. Pride is for something one has accomplished. Be proud of the result of hard work, of succeeding at a goal. A person really shouldn't be proud of the circumstances of their birth, regardless of whether it was wealthy, poor, tall, short, black, white, gay, straight, smart, stupid, etc.
> 
> But that doesn't mean there's no value in the LGBT community having a celebratory event. I was at the parade in Manhattan last week (just a spectator, and just by chance as I was there on vacation) and it was a very positive and 'mentally-healthy' event. But as prejudices against homosexuality wane, there shouldn't be a need to continue holding it forever. Just because you _want_ to parade around in public in leather gear with your dong on display doesn't mean you're entitled to do so.



"Pride" just means you're feeling proud, and that can refer to identity as well as accomplishments.
See my (long) post above for the part about how rights are inevitably rolled back with complacency.
The LGBT rights movement has a long way to go.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

You can justify anything with useless prattle. My point still stands. I don't care what other people do as long as they leave other people alone about it. I don't care if your visibility makes you feel better about yourself. You don't have a right to feel better about yourself. Leave everybody alone. Or expect to be put under the magnifying glass. It's like when celebrities bitch about not having any privacy. Or a hot chick complains that you're staring at her boobs. The fool got paid to be in the spotlight and the chick put that push-up bra on and have them up and out. Not my fault I noticed. You want attention and visibility but only on your terms. It's good to want things. Pride Celebration sucks. It's really inconvenient for anybody who doesn't want to participate. I'm really glad it's once a year. I don't think I'd feel any different about a straight Pride Parade either. It's all a bunch of annoying assholes are too loud and clogging all the BART trains. They should all just go home.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

For the record I know a lot about Stonewall I was born and raised around here. I knew about it since I was a child. It was a tragedy. But it somewhat has become as footnote and the parade is just a reason to make noise and get in people's faces. Don't they have sporting events for that?


----------



## leon315 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> For much of history, LGBT people have been met with violence and discrimination. They've been told to deny who they are or to at least hide it. Pride parades are a counterprotest to that, symbolizing the famous phrase, "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it."
> 
> Without pride and pride parades, basic LGBT identity would be challenged.


i WISH those LGBT people pay a visit to Putin's Moscow, The view is very breathtaking.


----------



## osm70 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> [1] In a nutshell, there wouldn't be progress on LGBT rights if LGBT individuals were invisible.
> 
> [2] Everyday is straight pride.
> 
> ...



1. LGBT is not invisible. We all know LGBT people exist.

2. It is? I haven't noticed.

3. So, what if someone is basically saying this: "I don't care if you are gay. I don't want to hear it. I also don't care if you are straight. I don't want to hear it either. Basically, don't tell me you fell in love (with anyone) because I do not care"? What kind of a person would that make me?

4. Default assumption? When I see someone I don't know, I don't "assume" any sexualities to them. What their sexuality might be never crosses my mind.

5. Yes. I can imagine it.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

We're here we're queer get used to it? What about the phrase I don't give a fuck, go fuck yourself and leave me the hell alone? Isn't that the original American Mantra right there? Isn't that what everybody really wants is to be left alone? The American dream? Live and Let Live? Isn't that what the whole argument was in the first place is that you have a right to do whatever you want with two consenting adults? And to leave you the hell alone about it? But that's not good enough and now you have to be in every show? Every movie? Do you honestly believe that that's equal representation or do you want more rights? Do you want more representation? What percentage of the population is gay? Is it enough to justify exposure in everything and everywhere? I'm part Portuguese but You don't see Portuguese people on TV much. And it's not enough to have Portuguese actors and actresses, they have to identify as Portuguese ans fly a flag and participate in Portuguese marches or I'm not happy. Where's my exposure? Where does it end? Everybody needs to shut the fuck up and leave everybody else alone about it that's where it needs to end. You really don't have a right to exposure or to be included. Selfish cry baby stuff


----------



## yusuo (Jul 8, 2019)

Wow since the thread was moved this has derailed somewhat, I'm officially abandoning this thread


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## Heichart (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> We're here we're queer get used to it? What about the phrase I don't give a fuck, go fuck yourself and leave me the hell alone? Isn't that the original American Mantra right there? Isn't that what everybody really wants is to be left alone? The American dream? Live and Let Live? Isn't that what the whole argument was in the first place is that you have a right to do whatever you want with two consenting adults? And to leave you the hell alone about it? But that's not good enough and now you have to be in every show? Every movie? Do you honestly believe that that's equal representation or do you want more rights? Do you want more representation? What percentage of the population is gay? Is it enough to justify exposure in everything and everywhere? I'm part Portuguese but You don't see Portuguese people on TV much. And it's not enough to have Portuguese actors and actresses, they have to identify as Portuguese ans fly a flag and participate in Portuguese marches or I'm not happy. Where's my exposure? Where does it end? Everybody needs to shut the fuck up and leave everybody else alone about it that's where it needs to end. You really don't have a right to exposure or to be included. Selfish cry baby stuff



You are calling someone selfish cry baby while being a selfish cry baby. Think about it.


----------



## Glyptofane (Jul 8, 2019)

Minox said:


> I think once upon a time pride festivals served a point, but the way they have evolved into flaunting sexual fetishes makes me wonder if this is how most LGBT people want to be viewed or if maybe just maybe they want to live like just about anyone else.


They might gain support if they could be seen as behaving like normal people. As it is, they push too hard, too fast and appear to be losing support.

https://www.richmond.com/sports/ap/...cle_d4533f6d-568c-564b-9650-95746ed48671.html


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## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Saying leave me alone isn't selfish. That's a true right. Saying watch what I do and applaud me me even though you don't care to see it in the first place is selfish.  Get used to it. That's a phrase that gets yelled at people constantly when they are being forced to do something they don't want to do. You know they used to tell the gay guys to get used to having sex with women. Just saying


----------



## AmandaRose (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> But that's not good enough and now you have to be in every show? Every movie? Do you honestly believe that that's equal representation or do you want more rights?


 As most people on this site know I'm a transgender woman from Scotland. Let's look at how many trans actors or characters are on British TV. There is a grand total of 1 trans actress on British TV the Scottish actress Annie Wallace who plays the trans character of Sally St Claire in the soap Hollyoaks. And another trans character in the soap Emmerdale that is played by a cis woman.

Yes the gay community is better represented but still it's something like 1 in every 30 charecters are gay. To say the lgbt community is taking over tv is simply laughable when people use it against British TV programmes.

Now I have no idea what happens on TV in America but I would be genuinely interested to hear how many trans actors and actresses are on American TV.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

According to statistics not even one in 30 Americans is gay. So why do they deserve one in 30 representation on TV? Why is not having one in 30 on TV even an issue if you're 4% of the population or 10% of the population?


Now we are getting derailed though. Back to the parade. Self-serving spectacle that has lost any true meaning. Sorry to tell you. It's a commercial thing now. Just like everything else in this country. And it's annoying as hell. If you live anywhere near the city you'd agree. It's at least inconvenient. Even if you like the parade.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> You can justify anything with useless prattle.


I wouldn't call my response "useless prattle." I tried to respond succinctly to each of your points; there were just a lot of points in your large block of text. Perhaps your post was the prattle?



mikefor20 said:


> My point still stands.


It really doesn't. See my post above.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't care what other people do as long as they leave other people alone about it.



AKA "Do it in the closet."
Nobody is forcing you to attend Pride.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't care if your visibility makes you feel better about yourself.


This is called a lack of empathy towards others. It's common among members of a majority who don't understand the plight of the minority.



mikefor20 said:


> You don't have a right to feel better about yourself.


People have a constitutional right to the pursuit of happiness in the United States, as well as a constitutional right to free expression.



mikefor20 said:


> Leave everybody alone.


Nobody is forcing you to attend Pride.



mikefor20 said:


> Or expect to be put under the magnifying glass.


I don't think anybody at Pride has anything left to hide. That's kind of the point.



mikefor20 said:


> It's like when celebrities bitch about not having any privacy.


People in the United States also have a constitutional right to a _reasonable_ expectation of privacy, even celebrities. Also, one can complain about not having as much privacy as he or she wants as a celebrity while acknowledging that it's a necessary evil that comes with the territory. I'm not sure what your point is here.



mikefor20 said:


> Or a hot chick complains that you're staring at her boobs.


If you had empathy, you would understand that the "hot chick" likely feels uncomfortable by your _leering_, and you shouldn't do it.



mikefor20 said:


> You want attention and visibility but only on your terms.


What are you even talking about? What terms?



mikefor20 said:


> It's good to want things. Pride Celebration sucks. It's really inconvenient for anybody who doesn't want to participate.



Pride doesn't suck.
Homophobia is likely much more inconvenient.
If a little inconvenience is a price you're unwilling to pay in the pursuit of LGBT equality, you've got a problem.



mikefor20 said:


> I'm really glad it's once a year.


Unless you're suggesting that all parades should be banned, the fact that you're drawing the line with Pride is homophobic.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't think I'd feel any different about a straight Pride Parade either. It's all a bunch of annoying assholes are too loud and clogging all the BART trains. They should all just go home.


You and I are in agreement. Straight pride parades are unnecessary and only serve as a homophobic counterprotest to LGBT Pride.



mikefor20 said:


> For the record I know a lot about Stonewall I was born and raised around here. I knew about it since I was a child. It was a tragedy. But it somewhat has become as footnote and the parade is just a reason to make noise and get in people's faces. Don't they have sporting events for that?


The LGBT rights movement started with Stonewall, and it's very important, but Pride is about LGBT rights in general. There was also a big focus on Stonewall this year.


----------



## osm70 (Jul 8, 2019)

Glyptofane said:


> They might gain support if they could be seen as behaving like normal people. As it is, they push too hard, too fast and appear to be losing support.
> 
> https://www.richmond.com/sports/ap/...cle_d4533f6d-568c-564b-9650-95746ed48671.html



The link gives me this:


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

As a gay person, I don't see the point of them either. If anything it makes me feel very uncomfortable when walking in town during a parade.
I'd much rather see a pride celebrating "love" in general, without any distinction.

Also LGBT rights aren't really challenged in "western" countries anymore. There will always be hateful people but they're now a minority. Do not misinterpret asking whether something is relevant to society (ex: whether "non binary" makes sense to be added to the law) from pure "hate", these are very different things.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

osm70 said:


> 1. LGBT is not invisible. We all know LGBT people exist.


When people who are LGBT are told to go back into the closet and/or not express themselves, they're invisible. Without out gay people in straight people's lives, there's no empathy, and there's no progress on LGBT rights.



osm70 said:


> 2. It is? I haven't noticed.


Probably because it's the default.



osm70 said:


> 3. So, what if someone is basically saying this: "I don't care if you are gay. I don't want to hear it. I also don't care if you are straight. I don't want to hear it either. Basically, don't tell me you fell in love (with anyone) because I do not care"? What kind of a person would that make me?


You should read my previous post with my example about how one should or shouldn't respond to a friend getting married. Saying, "I don't care who you love" or "I don't care who you married" or "I don't care about your wife" is insensitive at best.



osm70 said:


> 4. Default assumption? When I see someone I don't know, I don't "assume" any sexualities to them. What their sexuality might be never crosses my mind.


People generally assume a person is straight unless told otherwise. That's why people come out as gay but not as straight. They don't have to.



osm70 said:


> 5. Yes. I can imagine it.


And what is your response?


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

LOL I don't have time to respond to all that. I was on my way out the door in the first place. My point does still stand. It really dowa. And leaving people alone about it doesn't mean in the closet it just means not in the face. Have some tact.  Act like a human being and not some kind of caricature. You have to be able to understand that if you're not a moron.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> When people who are LGBT are told to go back into the closet and/or not express themselves, they're invisible. Without out gay people in straight people's lives, there's no empathy, and there's no progress on LGBT rights.
> 
> 
> Probably because it's the default.
> ...




I really don't have the time right now but wow this post is hilarious. I don't know why people are so sensitive about this. You are really not oppressed these days. Not around here. I don't know about the rest of the country but the bay Area is very gay friendly. Some people don't like them but they are viewed as assholes. I do not mind gay people. But I still don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it if you're straight gay or in love with that chuck-e-cheese suit. I don't really care. I do have empathy. I just don't think everybody deserves empathy. Look around.


----------



## Glyptofane (Jul 8, 2019)

osm70 said:


> The link gives me this:
> 
> View attachment 172534


Weird, "legal reasons". The headline is "Poll: Share of young adults comfortable with LGBTQ people drops from 63% to 45%".


----------



## Bimmel (Jul 8, 2019)

It's a great way to masturbate in public and nobody cares.


----------



## AmandaRose (Jul 8, 2019)

Here is a deal for all those who want pride to stop.

Help end homophobia and transphobia and we will have no need for Pride. It's that simple really. Plus it's a win/win for everyone


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> We're here we're queer get used to it? What about the phrase I don't give a fuck, go fuck yourself and leave me the hell alone?


Your phrase carries a lot more animosity than the LGBT one.



mikefor20 said:


> Isn't that the original American Mantra right there?


"E pluribus unum" is quite the opposite. Don't be ridiculous.



mikefor20 said:


> Isn't that what everybody really wants is to be left alone? The American dream? Live and Let Live? Isn't that what the whole argument was in the first place is that you have a right to do whatever you want with two consenting adults? And to leave you the hell alone about it?


That's right. Pride exists because LGBT people have not (and are not) being treated with respect and dignity. Things would be much simpler if people would "live and let live."



mikefor20 said:


> But that's not good enough and now you have to be in every show? Every movie?


Pride isn't about being in movies in TV shows. You seem to have missed the purpose of Pride. It's about being treated equally and not having to hide one's identity.



mikefor20 said:


> Do you honestly believe that that's equal representation or do you want more rights? Do you want more representation? What percentage of the population is gay?


I don't know what you're talking about. I'm talking about anti-discrimination, anti-violence, anti-stigma, equality under the law, etc.

As for the percentage of people who are gay, it's about 5%. That's approximately 16.4 million people in the USA. That's bigger than the populations of 46 states.



mikefor20 said:


> Is it enough to justify exposure in everything and everywhere?


Absolutely. Pride is about not keeping people locked in the closet because you're homophobic, sexist, etc.



mikefor20 said:


> I'm part Portuguese but You don't see Portuguese people on TV much. And it's not enough to have Portuguese actors and actresses, they have to identify as Portuguese ans fly a flag and participate in Portuguese marches or I'm not happy.


If Portuguese people are an oppressed minority, they should do parades.



mikefor20 said:


> Where's my exposure? Where does it end? Everybody needs to shut the fuck up and leave everybody else alone about it that's where it needs to end. You really don't have a right to exposure or to be included. Selfish cry baby stuff


You're literally whining, "Where's MY exposure?" and you're saying that LGBT people taking a stand for basic rights and basic dignity is the "cry baby stuff"?

It's also quite telling that you're now saying LGBT people have no right to inclusion. You've gone from "live and let live" to "they shouldn't be included."


----------



## osm70 (Jul 8, 2019)

I guess what I have a hard time understanding is homophobia itself. Here in the Czech Republic, that practically doesn't happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Czech_Republic

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Lacius said:


> When people who are LGBT are told to go back into the closet and/or not express themselves, they're invisible. Without out gay people in straight people's lives, there's no empathy, and there's no progress on LGBT rights.
> 
> 
> Probably because it's the default.
> ...



1. Don't worry, I read it.

2. It's the same as the LGBT thing.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

Glyptofane said:


> They might gain support if they could be seen as behaving like normal people. As it is, they push too hard, too fast and appear to be losing support.
> 
> https://www.richmond.com/sports/ap/...cle_d4533f6d-568c-564b-9650-95746ed48671.html


Support for the LGBT community has increased dramatically since the LGBT rights movement and Pride, and support for the LGBT community is higher than it has ever been. For example, as of 2018, 68% of Americans support same-sex marriage. In 2008, that number was 39%.



mikefor20 said:


> Saying leave *me* alone isn't selfish.


That statement literally has the word "me" in it, and the statement is literally about making things only about you. I can't think of a more selfish statement. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to want to be left alone, but it's selfish.



mikefor20 said:


> Saying watch what I do and applaud me me even though you don't care to see it in the first place is selfish.


Nobody wants this.



mikefor20 said:


> Get used to it.


People are gay and are going to express it. They have every right. Get used to it.



mikefor20 said:


> That's a phrase that gets yelled at people constantly when they are being forced to do something they don't want to do.


If you can't deal with the fact that expressive gay people exist, that's your problem. You can either get used to it or obsessively stress out about it.



mikefor20 said:


> You know they used to tell the gay guys to get used to having sex with women. Just saying


This is one of the many reasons why Pride exists.



mikefor20 said:


> According to statistics not even one in 30 Americans is gay.


It's closer to 1/20.



mikefor20 said:


> So why do they deserve one in 30 representation on TV? Why is not having one in 30 on TV even an issue if you're 4% of the population or 10% of the population?


They should have 1/20 representation if everything is equal and discrimination isn't occurring.
Having media representation is part of Pride. Like coming out, the visibility of gay people in media contributes to the gay rights movement. It also helps LGBT youth feel less isolated.



mikefor20 said:


> Self-serving spectacle that has lost any true meaning.


You can check my previous posts on the subject for the meaning of Pride. It's a counterprotest to LGBT discrimination, violence, and existence-denial. These are pretty important.



mikefor20 said:


> It's a commercial thing now. Just like everything else in this country. And it's annoying as hell. If you live anywhere near the city you'd agree. It's at least inconvenient. Even if you like the parade.


I agree that the commercialism of Pride is a real concern, but that doesn't invalidate the need for Pride.



deinonychus71 said:


> As a gay person, I don't see the point of them either. If anything it makes me feel very uncomfortable when walking in town during a parade.
> I'd much rather see a pride celebrating "love" in general, without any distinction.
> 
> Also LGBT rights aren't really challenged in "western" countries anymore. There will always be hateful people but they're now a minority. Do not misinterpret asking whether something is relevant to society (ex: whether "non binary" makes sense to be added to the law) from pure "hate", these are very different things.



LGBT rights still have a long way to go.
Complacency inevitably leads to a rollback of rights.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mikefor20 said:


> My point does still stand. It really dowa.


No, it really dowan't.



mikefor20 said:


> And leaving people alone about it doesn't mean in the closet it just means not in the face.


Nobody asked you to go to Pride. You seem to be ignoring this each time I say it to you.



mikefor20 said:


> Act like a human being and not some kind of caricature.


Before I take offense, what am I allegedly a caricature of?



mikefor20 said:


> You have to be able to understand that if you're not a moron.


If your intent is to get this thread locked, keep calling people names. Given my responses to your posts, I can understand why you might want this thread to get locked though.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't know why people are so sensitive about this.


You're the one obsessing over other people's sexualities and whether or not they can express their sexual identities.



mikefor20 said:


> You are really not oppressed these days. Not around here. I don't know about the rest of the country but the bay Area is very gay friendly.


Anti-LGBT discrimination happens all the time. Anti-LGBT violence and murder happens all the time. It is legal to be fired for being gay in many states. People actively want to rollback other gay rights, such as same-sex marriage. And, of course, people like you want to stuff people back into the closet and don't think they should be able to express their sexual identities in public.



mikefor20 said:


> Some people don't like them but they are viewed as assholes.


That's prejudice, which is one of the reasons why Pride exists.



mikefor20 said:


> I do not mind gay people. But I still don't want to hear it.


That's a denial of gay identity, and it's one of the reasons why Pride exists.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't want to hear it if you're straight gay or in love with that chuck-e-cheese suit.


So, you never feel inclined to talk about your romantic partners with others? From the point of view of everyone around you, you're a sexless being?

You also do understand that we are talking about the LGBT community at large. Gender identity, for example, is something you flaunt every day.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't really care. I do have empathy. I just don't think everybody deserves empathy. Look around.


If you're selectively deciding that LGBT people don't deserve empathy, then that's homophobic prejudice.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



AmandaRose said:


> Here is a deal for all those who want pride to stop.
> 
> Help end homophobia and transphobia and we will have no need for Pride. It's that simple really. Plus it's a win/win for everyone


I meant to state this as some point but forgot to. Anyone complaining about Pride should advocate for LGBT rights and vote for pro-LGBT policies and politicians. Doing anything else perpetuates the need for Pride.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osm70 said:


> It's the same as the LGBT thing.


I'm also arguing that they're comparable.
Are you going to articulate whether or not they're good things, or was your post meant to lack substance?


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> Here is a deal for all those who want pride to stop.
> 
> Help end homophobia and transphobia and we will have no need for Pride. It's that simple really. Plus it's a win/win for everyone



Dear Anakin,
For all the "If you're not with me then you're against me" people out there

It's not necessarily about whether we are "in favor of LGBT" or not, but how it's being done. You can agree with the general intent while disagreeing with the method. That's what -a lot- of people on the thread have been saying. That does NOT make them homophobic or transphobic.
And by the way, you can replace "homophobic" by pretty much any social modern issue and it still works, criticize one manifestation of feminism and you're automatically anti-feminist, etc.

Look at this thread, there's at least 2 gay people telling you they're against it (me included).
And here's the reason: I don't believe this kind of event do anything to help reduce homophobia or transphobia. If anything, it reaffirms differences. Someone who was against it is not going to be swayed by it. The problem with xxxxphobia does not get resolved by shoving more of it down people throats, especially when -some people- in these parades are doing everything they can to encourage stereotypes.

I do not want to be more visible, I just want to be normal. And I've had no problem being normal in my entire life as I don't get over the top and don't over publicize my sexuality, which I think is fair.
Funnily enough, the only time I'm reminded of my sexuality is when colleagues ask me "were you at the parade this weekend?".



Lacius said:


> LGBT rights still have a long way to go.
> 6z inevitably leads to a rollback of rights.



In western countries (well, the US as it's where most of the social battles are fought first) if we're at the point where people are just complaining cause they can't play a gay character in smash bros (yes yes resetera), I'd say we're in a pretty good place. Someone openly against gay people today is just being trashed publicly. Again, I'm well aware that hate crime is a thing, it's a thing and will always be a thing as it "naturally" come with differences, but there is no systemic homophobia anymore, which is what matters.


To conclude, a pride celebrating the "living together", "differences" or simply "love" or whatever would sound a lot better to me. It would remind us that social battles are about bringing people around what we have in common instead of pointing out differences.


----------



## Spider_Man (Jul 8, 2019)

to be fair i dont see the point in them, you cant change a persons view on something and i think things like this only provokes them.

its sad that we live in a world like this where others cant simply live how they like as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.

i get equality and all that, but it seems we live in a world where equality isnt as equal as it seems, for example if we did a day dedicated to straight people, the lgbt would be kicking off finding it offensive.

if we did the opposite of mobo awards, the black community would find it offensive.

i think everyone should be entitled to equality but we shouldnt have to dedicate a day/event to its cause.


----------



## Heichart (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> Saying leave me alone isn't selfish. That's a true right. Saying watch what I do and applaud me me even though you don't care to see it in the first place is selfish.  Get used to it. That's a phrase that gets yelled at people constantly when they are being forced to do something they don't want to do. You know they used to tell the gay guys to get used to having sex with women. Just saying



You want people to let you alone while not letting people alone. You are the one doing what you don't want others to do.


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## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Support for the LGBT community has increased dramatically since the LGBT rights movement and Pride, and support for the LGBT community is higher than it has ever been. For example, as of 2018, 68% of Americans support same-sex marriage. In 2008, that number was 39%.
> 
> 
> That statement literally has the word "me" in it, and the statement is literally about making things only about you. I can't think of a more selfish statement. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to want to be left alone, but it's selfish.
> ...



You should do podcasts. Lol hilarious how you read something and rearrange it in your head ever so subtly so you can make it fit your purpose LOL. There's so many things wrong with what you just posted. When you pull sentences out of context like that you change the meaning. Clever girl. I still stand by my previous statement. I have a right to be left alone just as much as anybody. If I'm sitting there minding my own business and you come in here chanting and hooting and hollering and bothering the hell out of me it's your fault not mine. Go away. We don't need Crusades all the time. This world is all messed up you guys need to figure out something else to fight for. Especially around here. You are not in any way shape or form oppressed anymore. Not any more than anyone else who isn't perfect. And nobody's perfect. I do not feel sorry for you. I do not think you're courageous. I just think you're a person. The reason in the previous post where that guy said he didn't even consider the sexuality isn't because he assumed someone is straight, it's because he doesn't care. Which is why I don't want to hear about it either. Or watch you wave a rubber dick while you prance around in leather chaps. that's not homophobic, I just don't care. I don't care about your movement. I don't care about your feelings. Everybody's become such whiny babies lately. PC social justice Warriors are ruining Society. people need to leave everybody else alone shut the hell up and get a life. I don't care what makes you happy. That doesn't make me an asshole or a homophobe it just I don't care. get a grip! You are not special. I don't care what mr. Rogers told you. And I didn't go to Pride by the way. I know better. But I do have to commute on the bart trains. I do have to deal with it. Because I live in the area. Get a grip

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Heichart said:


> You want people to let you alone while not letting people alone. You are the one doing what you don't want others to do.



This Thread asked the question what the parades are for. I answered it. That's how this started. I didn't ask the question.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> In western countries (well, the US as it's where most of the social battles are fought first) if we're at the point where people are just complaining cause they can't play a gay character in smash bros (yes yes resetera), I'd say we're in a pretty good place.


That would be a pretty good place, but that's not where LGBT rights are at. See my post above about where it's at.



deinonychus71 said:


> but there is no systemic homophobia anymore, which is what matters.


Systemic homophobia isn't just present; it's rampant. See my post above.



deinonychus71 said:


> Look at this thread, there's at least 2 gay people telling you they're against it (me included).
> And here's the reason: I don't believe this kind of event do anything to help reduce homophobia or transphobia. If anything, it reaffirms differences. Someone who was against it is not going to be swayed by it. The problem with xxxxphobia does not get resolved by shoving more of it down people throats, especially when -some people- in these parades are doing everything they can to encourage stereotypes.


LGBT visibility leads to an increase in support and empathy. LGBT supports, as well as LGBT rights, have skyrocketed since Pride. The things you're saying now were some of the same things that were said when people were skeptical of Pride in the first place.

Oh, and it also serves as a counterprotest to those who thing LGBT people should only be LGBT in private.



Retroboy said:


> to be fair i dont see the point in them, you cant change a persons view on something and i think things like this only provokes them.



It does change minds. If it weren't for the change in support from straight people who were originally against LGBT rights, there wouldn't be LGBT rights.
It's a counterprotest to those who deny LGBT identity.



Retroboy said:


> its sad that we live in a world like this where others cant simply live how they like as long as it doesnt harm anyone else.


That's why Pride is needed.



Retroboy said:


> i get equality and all that, but it seems we live in a world where equality isnt as equal as it seems, for example if we did a day dedicated to straight people, the lgbt would be kicking off finding it offensive.


That's because straight pride events are homophobic counter protests to LGBT Pride. In addition, straight people aren't an oppressed minority, which makes straight pride events purposeless.



Retroboy said:


> if we did the opposite of mobo awards, the black community would find it offensive.


White people are not an oppressed minority, and it would be a counterprotest to black musicians.



Retroboy said:


> i think everyone should be entitled to equality but we shouldnt have to dedicate a day/event to its cause.


Without LGBT visibility and Pride, rights are rolled back, and people become less empathetic.


----------



## osm70 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> *Support for the LGBT community has increased dramatically since the LGBT rights movement and Pride, and support for the LGBT community is higher than it has ever been. For example, as of 2018, 68% of Americans support same-sex marriage. In 2008, that number was 39%. [1]*
> 
> *LGBT rights still have a long way to go. [2]*
> 
> ...



1. 80% in the Czech Republic... as of 2013.

2. What do you mean? What is the problem?

3. Oh, here it is. The answer to number two. In the Czech Republic, being fired for being gay is illegal, no one is trying to take LGBT rights away, violence and murder don't seem to target LGBT specifically... etc, etc.

4. Yeah, well... I forgot what we were talking about.



So, there you have it. The situation in my country. With it being the way it is, we don't understand the point of Pride. If you ask the typical average Czech person what are the parades for, they will most likely say "A cry for attention - look at me, I am special!". And if you try to say it's to stop homophobia, they will go like "but that doesn't actually happen".


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## Sono (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> -snip-


(I'm sick of refreshing the browser page just so I can quote the latest edit, so be happy with a snip)

I think the reason you're being called a caricature and a moron is because you seem to be repeating the same things, without thinking about what the other has said.

Try thinking critically, and try processing what the other person has said before replying with the same copypaste answers.

Also, the "dowan't" response from you is low-key childish. If you want to be taken in just the slightest bit seriously, avoid these kind of repsonses.



In my opinion these parades have slightly gotten out of hand. This should be a parade for people being proud of themselves for who they are, not a circus.

Also, we don't choose to go to a parade, and we don't tell the people on the parade to block the train tracks so we miss our connections, despite arriving hours earlier to prevent missing a connection.


Here where I live there was a parade, but I could only hear complaints about it. Not because they are homophobe and transphobe (I mean, they are, but they didn't bring up ANY points which were homophobic or transphobic), but because they hindered public transport.

The result? The parade had a backlash, and ended up having the opposite effect, upsetting everyone, and hating "the gays" even more.

At least protesters remain in one place, and don't always block public transport. And even if they do, not for more than ten minutes.


In my opinion, if you really want to do something, do it in a way so that people take you seriously. Don't dress like a clown. You can have parades in casual clothing, and that way you don't scare off little children. Moderation. Too much stuff can be harmful, even if it's a good thing.


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## AmandaRose (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> Dear Anakin,
> For all the "If you're not with me then you're against me" people out there
> 
> It's not necessarily about whether we are "in favor of LGBT" or not, but how it's being done. You can agree with the general intent while disagreeing with the method. That's what -a lot- of people on the thread have been saying. That does NOT make them homophobic or transphobic.
> ...


Nowhere did I say anyone posting here is homophobic or transohobic what I said is we should all work together to end homophobia and transphobia.

You also say that in America there is  no more systemic homophobia yet fail to meantion that America is hugely transphobic.

You also state 

To conclude, a pride celebrating the "living together", "differences" or simply "love" or whatever would sound a lot better to me

Ok I suggest you come to Glasgow during pride. Our pride event is made up of 50% lgbt and 50% straight people celebrating life in general. Don't judge all pride events by what you see in your own country they are not all like that.


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## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Sono said:


> (I'm sick of refreshing the browser page just so I can quote the latest edit, so be happy with a snip)
> 
> I think the reason you're being called a caricature and a moron is because you seem to be repeating the same things, without thinking about what the other has said.
> 
> ...




Right, intentionally pushing people and making them uncomfortable doesn't make you right it just makes you a fake bully caricature without any real substance.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> You should do podcasts. Lol hilarious how you read something and rearrange it in your head ever so subtly so you can make it fit your purpose LOL. There's so many things wrong with what you just posted. When you pull sentences out of context like that you change the meaning. Clever girl.


If you're going to say I pulled sentences out of context, put up or shut up.



mikefor20 said:


> I have a right to be left alone just as much as anybody. If I'm sitting there minding my own business and you come in here chanting and hooting and hollering and bothering the hell out of me it's your fault not mine. Go away. We don't need Crusades all the time.


For the nth time, *nobody is forcing you to attend Pride.*
Nobody is bursting into your house and making you watch Pride. Nothing about Pride conflicts with your right to privacy or your "right to be left alone."



mikefor20 said:


> This world is all messed up you guys need to figure out something else to fight for. Especially around here. You are not in any way shape or form oppressed anymore. Not any more than anyone else who isn't perfect. And nobody's perfect.


If you actually read my posts, you would see that LGBT rights have a long way to go. There's anti-LGBT discrimination, anti-LGBT violence, people like you who are anti-LGBT expression, and large groups wanting to roll back the LGBT rights that currently exist.

It's also possible to advocate for multiple things. A person who is supportive of LGBT rights isn't exclusively supportive of LGBT rights.



mikefor20 said:


> I do not feel sorry for [LGBT people].


There's that lack of empathy.



mikefor20 said:


> I do not think you're courageous.


There it is again.



mikefor20 said:


> Which is why I don't want to hear about it either. Or watch you wave a rubber dick while you prance around in leather chaps.


Then don't. It doesn't mean Pride should be canceled.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't care about your movement.


Not caring about LGBT rights is:

Homophobic
Unempathetic



mikefor20 said:


> I don't care about your feelings.


That is literally, and by definition, unempathetic.
It's also hypocritical. If you don't care about others' feelings, why are you posting about your hurt feelings here for us to read?



mikefor20 said:


> Everybody's become such whiny babies lately.


You're the one whining about how a Pride event that barely affects you causes you anxiety.



mikefor20 said:


> PC social justice Warriors are ruining Society.


Social justice makes for a better society for everyone. To live in a society that is unjust for some is to live in a society that is unjust for all, since the line between you and the oppressed is arbitrary.



mikefor20 said:


> people need to leave everybody else alone shut the hell up and get a life.


Pride is about, metaphorically, "being left alone." So, you start.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't care what makes you happy. That doesn't make me an asshole or a homophobe it just I don't care.


Not caring about others' happiness arguably does make you a bitter asshole. Not caring about the plights of the LGBT community also makes you a homophobe. You can see one of my earliest responses to you on what about your comments are homophobic and sexist. It was a good dissection of your commentary, if I say so myself. I was pretty _proud_ of it. Get it? Pride?



mikefor20 said:


> You are not special.


Everybody is special, and everybody deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. If nothing else, that's what Pride is about.



mikefor20 said:


> I don't care what mr. Rogers told you.


You're the antithesis of Mr. Rogers.
_"Bah humbug. Don't be my neighbor. I don't care about any of you. Stop having fun. Stop fighting for the rights I already have."_



mikefor20 said:


> And I didn't go to Pride by the way. I know better. But I do have to commute on the bart trains. I do have to deal with it. Because I live in the area. Get a grip


If you didn't go to Pride, then it barely affects you. As for what you see in public spaces, you don't have much control over that, and you're complaining about a larger issue that doesn't apply only to Pride. Also, as I've said before, if you aren't willing to suffer through the minor inconvenience that is Price for the sake of LGBT rights, that's a problem.



mikefor20 said:


> This Thread asked the question what the parades are for. I answered it. That's how this started. I didn't ask the question.


That doesn't mean you're not whining about it.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osm70 said:


> 2. What do you mean? What is the problem?


Why did you ask me a question only to acknowledge I answered it in the next part of your post?



osm70 said:


> 3. Oh, here it is. The answer to number two. In the Czech Republic, being fired for being gay is illegal, no one is trying to take LGBT rights away, violence and murder don't seem to target LGBT specifically... etc, etc.


I'm talking about the United States and the Earth broadly. I don't know a lot about gay rights in your country, but if I assume it's 100% perfect (I doubt it), that doesn't address the global issues. Pride is still relevant.



osm70 said:


> 4. Yeah, well... I forgot what we were talking about.


It's too bad there isn't an easily accessible written record.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

Sono said:


> (I'm sick of refreshing the browser page just so I can quote the latest edit, so be happy with a snip)


I have made almost no edits in this thread. Responses are being merged.



Sono said:


> I think the reason you're being called a caricature and a moron is because you seem to be repeating the same things, without thinking about what the other has said.



That doesn't explain what I'm allegedly a caricature of.
I'm providing what I would consider to be thoughtful and succinct responses to individual points, as you can plainly see from the space my posts are taking up despite the relatively low word counts. The giant blocks of text I'm responding to often repeat their points without addressing mine, hence why I'm feeling a bit repetitive. In other words, some people are hitting "reply" to my post and then typing what they want to say without addressing much of my post.
Aside from arguably wasting my time, I'm not sure what's moronic about anything I've posted.



Sono said:


> Try thinking critically, and try processing what the other person has said before replying with the same copypaste answers.


As I said above, I've been responding to most posts point by point. I have intended for my reponses to be thoughtful and direct.



Sono said:


> Also, the "dowan't" response from you is low-key childish. If you want to be taken in just the slightest bit seriously, avoid these kind of repsonses.


Respectfully, I'm not very impressed by pearl-clutching. I'm allowed to have fun, and I wasn't using the typo to suggest any of his points were wrong.



Sono said:


> In my opinion these parades have slightly gotten out of hand. This should be a parade for people being proud of themselves for who they are, not a circus.


I don't see why it can't be both.



Sono said:


> Also, we don't choose to go to a parade, and we don't tell the people on the parade to block the train tracks so we miss our connections, despite arriving hours earlier to prevent missing a connection.


If that's not a minor inconvenience you're willing to suffer for the sake of the LGBT rights movement, that's potentially problematic. LGBT Pride also isn't the only event with these kinds of inconveniences. Which ones should also be done away with?



Sono said:


> Here where I live there was a parade, but I could only hear complaints about it. Not because they are homophobe and transphobe (I mean, they are, but they didn't bring up ANY points which were homophobic or transphobic), but because they hindered public transport.


If these people are admittedly homophobic and transphobic, then I'm not sure you're in a position to assign inward motive to their outward complaints.



Sono said:


> The result? The parade had a backlash, and ended up having the opposite effect, upsetting everyone, and hating "the gays" even more.


Support for Pride is largely positive, with support for the LGBT community consistently growing. And, as I and someone else said earlier, the quickest way to get rid of Pride is to do away with the need for Pride. If you don't like the inconvenience it brings, become an LGBT ally and vote for pro-LGBT politicians and policies.

Here in the US, there were protests awhile back from the Black Lives Movement. People were complaining about the traffic, etc., but that was an intended consequence of the protest. It gets people to pay attention to the plights of the black community, it makes people realize that the solution is to address issues of systemic racism, and comparing the plight of the black community to the minor traffic inconvenience put things into perspective.

I'm sympathetic to the inconvenience. I hate traffic, and I don't know anyone who likes it. Compared to the issues facing the LGBT community, however, I'm less than concerned about the traffic, etc. It's also arbitrary to complain about traffic specific to Pride but not other events.



Sono said:


> At least protesters remain in one place, and don't always block public transport. And even if they do, not for more than ten minutes.


See above about the Black Lives Matter protests. You'd be surprised. Historically, disruption is often the goal with protests. That's not the case with Pride.



Sono said:


> In my opinion, if you really want to do something, do it in a way so that people take you seriously.


What the LGBT community is doing now is apparently working.



Sono said:


> Don't dress like a clown.


People largely don't dress like clowns, so I'm not sure why we are focusing on a minority of parade goers. There's also nothing wrong with wearing a costume during Pride. Pride goers generally like to see that.



Sono said:


> You can have parades in casual clothing, and that way you don't scare off little children.



That takes a lot of the fun out of it.
You're metaphorical putting LGBT people back into the closet but hindering identity expression.
I don't think I've ever seen scared children at Pride, aside from the generically fussy baby.



Sono said:


> Moderation. Too much stuff can be harmful, even if it's a good thing.


The point of identity expression is to go as big or as small as you want to.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mikefor20 said:


> Right, intentionally pushing people and making them uncomfortable doesn't make you right it just makes you a fake bully caricature without any real substance.


Poking fun at a single typo isn't bullying. Learn what bullying is.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

@Lacius, your posts are all split up and it makes it a little hard to figure out what you were referring to, however I think there's a middleground between "do it in the closet" and pride scale celebration.

For example, I don't think most people have an issue with a gay couple holding hands in public, I think they would have a problem with gay people kissing for five minutes though.
But to be honest, people also tend to have issues with straight people kissing audibly for five minutes straight (ok maybe they don't point it out as much?). It's common decency at this point.

Now, if you happen to see someone bitching about a couple holding hands, please call them out loudly, and we'll see how people react around you.
That is what matters, it's whether the general population accepted an idea as "normal", and maybe I'm naive? But I think they did.

Now for the "utility" aspect of Pride, it seems that there's a correlation versus causation issue with your statement here. I may as well say that the Internet played a huge part as well (I'm also pretty sure it had a much bigger impact than Pride), we can't know for sure.
However what I know is that a truly homophobic/transphobic person will not change their mind because of Pride, but it will reinforce their wrong assumptions about them because of some of the people going to the Pride and being over the top.



Lacius said:


> White people are not an oppressed minority, and it would be a counterprotest to black musicians.


Getting a little off topic here, but to me the anti-"middle-age straight white male" is becoming more than a meme. I know it's mainly being used to make a point, but it's built on the exact same fallacies and stereotypes that lead to xxxxphobias/xxxxxism. And more importantly, it has 0% to do with inclusion and 100% to do with payback or revenge. Pretty funny how it works, the bullied becoming the bullies.
So if that keeps going on, you could very well see in the coming months/year a pride to fight these new stereotypes.



AmandaRose said:


> You also say that in America there is  no more systemic homophobia yet fail to meantion that America is hugely transphobic.


I didn't fail to mention it, but if you want to get to this specific topic, I think the larger problem isn't that America is more transphobic, but 'some people' (I will not name them) want to bring new social changes but have no intention of creating an environment that is debate-friendly.
And so again, when you try to shove new things down people throats without even bothering to explain your point of view to them (or listen to theirs) it doesn't go well.
For example, when Fox News' Tucker (whom I don't really like for his impressive track record for fallacies) jokingly say "oh apparently now there are x genders, so that's a thing", I think he has a point. Who decide that these should be officially recognized? When was there a debate around it? How can some people be so sure they have the high ground (Anakin... ok I'll stop) that there doesn't need to be a debate?



AmandaRose said:


> Ok I suggest you come to Glasgow during pride. Our pride event is made up of 50% lgbt and 50% straight people celebrating life in general. Don't judge all pride events by what you see in your own country they are not all like that.


The USA is not my country, I only live there  I'm from France.
But that's not really the point I was making. For someone who already wants to look as "pro-LGBT" as possible, sure they will join. The problem is how to convince / turn the opinion around for people who are against it?


----------



## osm70 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> I have made almost no edits in this thread. Responses are being merged.
> If that's not a minor inconvenience you're willing to suffer for the sake of the LGBT rights movement, that's potentially problematic. [1]
> 
> LGBT Pride also isn't the only event with these kinds of inconveniences. Which ones should also be done away with? [2]
> ...



1. No, it's not something I want to suffer for any sake. I am a university student. If I have an exam and I don't arrive on time, I auto fail, even if I am late by just 2 minutes. (And no, no one cares why I am late. Sick? - Fail, Train didn't come? - Fail, Stopped by the police for questioning? - Fail, etc) That's not a minor inconvenience, that's 3 years of my life down the drain. If that happened to me, I would be pissed off at those who blocked the traffic.

2. All of them

3. Agreed


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> @Lacius, your posts are all split up and it makes it a little hard to figure out what you were referring to


My responses immediately follow the quoted text above.



deinonychus71 said:


> For example, I don't think most people have an issue with a gay couple holding hands in public, I think they would have a problem with gay people kissing for five minutes though.
> But to be honest, people also tend to have issues with straight people kissing audibly for five minutes straight (ok maybe they don't point it out as much?). It's common decency at this point.


LGBT PDA and straight PDA is a big issue as well, and it's another reason for Pride. For example, while they arguably shouldn't be doing it, couples discovered to be having sex in a semi-public place are far more likely to be arrested if they're LGBT.



deinonychus71 said:


> That is what matters, it's whether the general population accepted an idea as "normal", and maybe I'm naive? But I think they did.


Pride is largely about normalizing the existence of LGBT people.



deinonychus71 said:


> Now for the "utility" aspect of Pride, it seems that there's a correlation versus causation issue with your statement here. I may as well say that the Internet played a huge part as well (I'm also pretty sure it had a much bigger impact than Pride), we can't know for sure.
> However what I know is that a truly homophobic/transphobic person will not change their mind because of Pride, but it will reinforce their wrong assumptions about them because of some of the people going to the Pride and being over the top.


You're right. A lot of factors went into the increasing acceptance of LGBT people and LGBT rights. However, arguably the biggest was people coming out. Before the coming out movement, the LGBT community was as invisible as they were vilified. Once people's kids, neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc. started coming out, the mental image of depraved monsters in the sewers that nobody had ever seen before began to go away.

It's also worth noting the Pride is specifically for the LGBT community and LGBT allies, and it's their space to do as they wish. That's why the costumes, for example, are largely popular; the people at Pride are mostly the people already supportive of Pride. There's not much of an incentive to tone it down when the people who want it toned down are the people who are never going to attend in the first place.



deinonychus71 said:


> Getting a little off topic here, but to me the anti-"middle-age straight white male" is becoming more than a meme. I know it's mainly being used to make a point, but it's built on the exact same fallacies and stereotypes that lead to xxxxphobias/xxxxxism. And more importantly, it has 0% to do with inclusion and 100% to do with payback or revenge. Pretty funny how it works, the bullied becoming the bullies.
> So if that keeps going on, you could very well see in the coming months/year a pride to fight these new stereotypes.


White people aren't systemically oppressed. Men aren't systemically oppressed. They never will be.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osm70 said:


> 1. No, it's not something I want to suffer for any sake. I am a university student. If I have an exam and I don't arrive on time, I auto fail, even if I am late by just 2 minutes. (And no, no one cares why I am late. Sick? - Fail, Train didn't come? - Fail, Stopped by the police for questioning? - Fail, etc) That's not a minor inconvenience, that's 3 years of my life down the drain. If that happened to me, I would be pissed off at those who blocked the traffic.


I have a lot of points in a previous post about how, although I'm sympathetic to traffic frustrations and the like, I'm not very concerned about these issues in comparison to the issues facing the LGBT community. In other words, I think the benefits of Pride far outweigh the minor logistical inconveniences.

Also, if you're late for an exam, it's not the fault of the LGBT community. In this specific example, Pride is scheduled far in advance, and you can work around it. Regardless, you should plan to arrive hours in advance if you literally cannot afford to be late.



osm70 said:


> 2. All of them
> 
> 3. Agreed


I'll give you credit for being consistent.


----------



## osm70 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> In this specific example, Pride is scheduled far in advance, and you can work around it.


Nevermind then. There goes my argument.


----------



## Sono (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> I have made almost no edits in this thread. Responses are being merged.



I'm typing fairly slow, so each time it merges, I have to re-quote it.



Lacius said:


> That doesn't explain what I'm allegedly a caricature of.
> I'm providing what I would consider to be thoughtful and succinct responses to individual points, as you can plainly see from the space my posts are taking up despite the relatively low word counts. The giant blocks of text I'm responding to often repeat their points without addressing mine, hence why I'm feeling a bit repetitive. In other words, some people are hitting "reply" to my post and then typing what they want to say without addressing much of my post.
> Aside from arguably wasting my time, I'm not sure what's moronic about anything I've posted.



I think it's because you seem to be extremely biased (not the right word) towards LGBT stuff, but feminist-levels strong, where you can only reply "I'm sorry for existing", because no matter what we do, it's always wrong.



Lacius said:


> As I said above, I've been responding to most posts point by point. I have intended for my reponses to be thoughtful and direct.



Try to put some reasoning into your opinion instead of just a repsonse, and try to prove why you're right.




Lacius said:


> Respectfully, I'm not very impressed by pearl-clutching. I'm allowed to have fun, and I wasn't using the typo to suggest any of his points were wrong.



I don't think jokes are allowed in a topic serious like this. It's like if I would've made an LGBT joke (which I hope doesn't exist). It's distasteful in my opinion.




Lacius said:


> I don't see why it can't be both.



Circuses don't cause traffic jams after they have settled for the few days they are staying.




Lacius said:


> If that's not a minor inconvenience you're willing to suffer for the sake of the LGBT rights movement, that's potentially problematic. LGBT Pride also isn't the only event with these kinds of inconveniences. Which ones should also be done away with?



Sorry, it's not my fault that ticket prices are high and this is the only connection available. It's a MAJOR inconvenience. Minor inconvenience would be having to walk 15 minutes to the nearest connection. Major inconvenience is when I have to wait a whole day for the next train, while also having to fork over money again for my non-revokable ticket.




Lacius said:


> If these people are admittedly homophobic and transphobic, then I'm not sure you're in a position to assign inward motive to their outward complaints.



I sure am. I know the people around me much better than you, so I know when they are being LGBT-phobic, and when they are legit upset and angry at some major inconveniences.




Lacius said:


> Support for Pride is largely positive, with support for the LGBT community consistently growing. And, as I and someone else said earlier, the quickest way to get rid of Pride is to do away with the need for Pride. If you don't like the inconvenience it brings, become an LGBT ally and vote for pro-LGBT politicians and policies.



That's like saying "try befriending the bully" just to get bullied when nobody is looking.

Edit: I misread this block of text.

Sure, if the community becomes less toxic and less pushing then I will.



Lacius said:


> Here in the US, there were protests awhile back from the Black Lives Movement. People were complaining about the traffic, etc., but that was an intended consequence of the protest. It gets people to pay attention to the plights of the black community, it makes people realize that the solution is to address issues of systemic racism, and comparing the plight of the black community to the minor traffic inconvenience put things into perspective.



I have nothing to say, because I don't live in the USA.



Lacius said:


> I'm sympathetic to the inconvenience. I hate traffic, and I don't know anyone who likes it. Compared to the issues facing the LGBT community, however, I'm less than concerned about the traffic, etc. It's also arbitrary to complain about traffic specific to Pride but not other events.



Because other events don't block the train tracks.



Lacius said:


> See above about the Black Lives Matter protests. You'd be surprised. Historically, disruption is often the goal with protests. That's not the case with Pride.



They most likely disrupted stuff to get attention. In this case the disruption is getting out of hand each year.




Lacius said:


> What the LGBT community is doing now is apparently working.



In my opinion it would work even better in casual clothing, and that way they would seem like nice, warmhearted, and normal people, instead of drunk clowns.




Lacius said:


> People largely don't dress like clowns, so I'm not sure why we are focusing on a minority of parade goers. There's also nothing wrong with wearing a costume during Pride. Pride goers generally like to see that.



Ok, I give you the point on this one. But there should be a limit on the absurdity of the costume. This should not be a sex parade, but a movement to bring attention so people could have better lives.



Lacius said:


> That takes a lot of the fun out of it.
> You're metaphorical putting LGBT people back into the closet but hindering identity expression.
> I don't think I've ever seen scared children at Pride, aside from the generically fussy baby.



1) who said it must be fun? I thought people are doing this movement to have a better life, not to show off their weird sexual desires (don't take this out of context, kthx).
2) can you please stop with this "putting them back to the closet" thing? My mind never crossed such thing, and I would appreciate if you could stop that. Thanks.
3) ok, I also give you this point because of one of your points mentioned above. But those minority who aren't casually parade-ing do scare children.



Lacius said:


> The point of identity expression is to go as big or as small as you want to.



Tell that to an exhibitionist (again, don't take this out of context, thanks).


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> White people aren't systemically oppressed. Men aren't systemically oppressed. They never will be.



I can guarantee you, if you keep that stance, one day you'll be on the wrong side of the fence. ANY form of prejudice based on immutable properties can become a form of oppression.
I have a very personal example for you. I had a nice group of furry friends back in the day (like a decade ago), the overwhelming majority being gay or bi (well yeah, furries). The few who were straight were mocked, but apparently that wasn't a big deal when they were affected by it.
Everyone can be bullied and everyone can be a bully.


----------



## Sono (Jul 8, 2019)

(can't find the original quote)
"Men aren't systematically oppressed"

...feminists, anyone?

Also, this thread shows that "straight cis white male" are worthless, and have no right to live to have any saying in this LGBT movement.


----------



## AmandaRose (Jul 8, 2019)

Sono said:


> Because other events don't block the train tracks.



I totally disagree with that statement. Here in Glasgow nearly every weekend the trains are hugely disrupted by various sporting events and music concerts ect. If the Rangers football team are playing at home that weekend there is a extra 52 thousand people on the trains or jamming up the roads. Then if Celtic football team are also playing at home we have another 60 thousand people on the trains/roads then if we are really unlucky and Partick Thisle football club are also playing at home that's another 5 thousand people on trains/roads and if we are really really unlucky and the Glasgow Warriors Rugby club are at home add another 10 thousand to that list. If you then add in the music festival season which it is currently you are looking at another 40 thousand people. 

Like I said this can be nearly every weekend. The Pride parade is for 1 day here. And yet its the only thing people moan about causing disruption which is funny cause it causes less disruption that the events meantioned above.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

Sono said:


> I think it's because you seem to be extremely biased (not the right word) towards LGBT stuff, but feminist-levels strong, where you can only reply "I'm sorry for existing", because no matter what we do, it's always wrong.


I honestly don't know what you're arguing here.



Sono said:


> Try to put some reasoning into your opinion instead of just a repsonse, and try to prove why you're right.


I'd say I've done that. Regardless, I'd rather you respond substantively to my posts, rather than say things like (paraphrased), "Your posts are bad."



Sono said:


> I don't think jokes are allowed in a topic serious like this. It's like if I would've made an LGBT joke (which I hope doesn't exist). It's distasteful in my opinion.


respectfully, whether or not you think jokes are allowed is at the bottom of my list of concerns, and I don't think you would find much agreement.

An LGBT joke, depending on the joke, can be distasteful. I made a gay joke earlier in the thread about someone throwing shade around about Pride outfits. It wasn't in poor taste, and it's fine.

What's also fine is referencing a person's typo. It was mildly funny, and nobody got hurt. If someone did get hurt because I acknowledged a typo, that person needs to grow thicker skin. It wasn't an insult.



Sono said:


> Circuses don't cause traffic jams after they have settled for the few days they are staying.


I'm not particularly interested in comparing the traffic impact of a circus vs. the traffic impact of a Pride parade. It's irrelevant to most of my points, and it's irrelevant to the one I was responding to.



Sono said:


> Sorry, it's not my fault that ticket prices are high and this is the only connection available. It's a MAJOR inconvenience. Minor inconvenience would be having to walk 15 minutes to the nearest connection. Major inconvenience is when I have to wait a whole day for the next train, while also having to fork over money again for my non-revokable ticket.


You should plan ahead next time. Life is full of minor inconveniences, and the gays are not responsible for your problems.



Sono said:


> I sure am. I know the people around me much better than you, so I know when they are being LGBT-phobic, and when they are legit upset and angry at some major inconveniences.


It's impossible for you to call for the operation of homophobic minds when they're complaining about an LGBT event, regardless of the specific aspects they're complaining about. True homophobes are never going to be happy with Pride, obviously, so they're also irrelevant to the conversation.



Sono said:


> That's like saying "try befriending the bully" just to get bullied when nobody is looking.


The LGBT community isn't the bully; it's society's systemic issues that have necessitated Pride in the first place. If you don't want Pride to be a thing, then as a member of society, it's partly your responsibility to end the need for Pride.



Sono said:


> Because other events don't block the train tracks.


I doubt Pride is the only event that causes the same kinds of inconveniences. If it is, then you don't have much to complain about if the only substantive traffic problem happens once a year for you.



Sono said:


> They most likely disrupted stuff to get attention. In this case the disruption is getting out of hand each year.


Disruption for attention is often the point of a protest.



Sono said:


> In my opinion it would work even better in casual clothing, and that way they would seem like nice, warmhearted, and normal people, instead of drunk clowns.


Contrasting outwardly gay people with "normal people" is an example of why Pride is necessary.



Sono said:


> But there should be a limit on the absurdity of the costume. This should not be a sex parade, but a movement to bring attention so people could have better lives.


I don't see the problem with there being some racy attire, and it also doesn't address the topic of whether or not Pride should exist.



Sono said:


> 1) who said it must be fun?


Historically, people were told that gay people lived sad and lonely lives without fulfillment. One of the purposes of Pride was to correct this false narrative. That's part of the reason why Pride is fun and lively. I'm also not particularly interested in talking about why Pride should be fun, because that's pointless. Something is allowed to be fun for the sake of being fun. If you're going to tell me why it should not be fun, I'm listening.



Sono said:


> 2) can you please stop with this "putting them back to the closed" thing? My mind never crossed such thing, and I would appreciate if you could stop that. Thanks.


If you don't want to be called out on suggesting that gay people should at least somewhat go back into the closet, don't do it.



Sono said:


> 3) ok, I also give you this point because of one of your points mentioned above. But those minority who aren't casually parade-ing do scare children.


I'm not saying this is something that cannot and never happens, but children generally aren't anymore afraid of Pride than any other parade-like event. This is a false narrative.



Sono said:


> Tell that to an exhibitionist (again, don't take this out of context, thanks).


In what world does that address my point?



deinonychus71 said:


> I can guarantee you, if you keep that stance, one day you'll be on the wrong side of the fence. ANY form of prejudice based on immutable properties can become a form of oppression.
> I have a very personal example for you. I had a nice group of furry friends back in the day (like a decade ago), the overwhelming majority being gay or bi (well yeah, furries). The few who were straight were mocked, but apparently that wasn't a big deal when they were affected by it.
> Everyone can be bullied and everyone can be a bully.


Don't confuse isolated prejudice with systemic oppression.



Sono said:


> (can't find the original quote)
> "Men aren't systematically oppressed"
> 
> ...feminists, anyone?
> ...


There is a difference between "men aren't systemically oppressed" and "straight cis white males are worthless." Don't put words in my mouth. I'm get bored when other people argue against strawmen.



Sono said:


> and have no right to live to have any saying in this LGBT movement.



I never said straight white men don't have a right to live.
I'm not sure why straight white men would have "any say in the LGBT rights movement." If you mean to suggest that I'm arguing they can't have an opinion on the LGBT rights movement, I never said that. Don't confuse my correcting of misinformation or calling out homophobia as a suggestion that people don't have a right to an opinion.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 8, 2019)

For the general premise of the thread then I am also not sure. If people want to wander through with a sign and holding hands then their weekend to waste, hopefully traffic is not too bothered. I struggle to see where parading (heh) around doing things I would normally have to part with some cash and go to a fun club to see, or the potentially harder task of finding someone willing to participate, is supposed to help things (and to pull up an example from earlier I have no problem with a drag queen reading to kids in a library, and generally find the toilet issue a complete non issue). Similarly having that kid wander along doing things I would similarly have to visit said clubs to see (and attempting to get a personal show is likely to win me a set of shiny bracelets) is probably going to be actively counter productive (if equality with "normal" is the goal then do the change the relevant parameters test and ask if it would be openly welcomed there). This is also before we contemplate whether it is time for the "it is done, now some people to finish the final clean up and keep guard lest something sneak back in are all that is needed" approach or whether something more overt needs to continue.

Some have said that is less of an issue awareness thing these days and more of a "remember what we had to fight through" which could make some sense, but nothing I am particularly inclined to assign any great value to beyond "their weekend to waste", and would also serve to cast the more dubious aspects mentioned above in even harsher light.



AmandaRose said:


> Here is a deal for all those who want pride to stop.
> 
> Help end homophobia and transphobia and we will have no need for Pride. It's that simple really. Plus it's a win/win for everyone



Is that not an impossible task? There will likely always be someone that cares about such things; if nothing else I doubt we are getting rid of certain takes on religion any time soon and that tends to go hand in hand with such things. Or are we going for some kind of exponential "not completely there but might as well be" type line?
Going the other way then what might such a complete line look like? As it stands there are rather split opinions on the messages on cakes with regards to what is free speech and what is an action that might see the law come down on it, never mind potentially more complicated things.

Do we also then need pride events for other aspects? Or maybe just aspects one can not choose?


----------



## SuperDan (Jul 8, 2019)

Nerdtendo said:


> How do you handle the current political climate of America with kids? I'm almost 18 years old. In 5-6 years, I'll probably have little ones of my own (which I'm super stoked about). I'm really nervous on how to keep them on the straight and narrow as they're growing up. Once they mature, they can make whatever choice they make and I'll always love them, but when they 8, 9, 10... anywhere around that age, I don't want them to be exposed to the pressure of having to pick a sexuality.


We live out in the deep south . Life is much simpler . My boys are 8 & 12 all they care about is games & hunting atm .


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## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

More ridiculous bulshit. Look, if you don't want to be judged keep it to yourself and leave everybody else alone about it. Otherwise you brought all of the Prejudice and bullshit upon yourself. Get used to it LOL. Why should try so hard to make one group feel comfortable while the other one doesn't? Everybody has their Kinks everybody has their private life. As long as they keep it private nobody judges them. The minute you go and put it in someone's face you deserve the ridicule. You must want it. That's why you do it. Bitching that I have to accept you is bullshit. Because if your feelings have validity then so do mine. I personally don't care what you do I just don't want to hear about it or see it because I don't care to see it. I don't see what the problem is. Keep your bullshit to yourself or expect someone to call you out on it once in awhile. I'm convinced you all really like that anyway. I'm convinced that that's what you're going for in the first place. Waiting for someone to say something so you can jump all over them about it. Let's Make a Deal everybody leave each other alone and then they'll be no problem. How fucking simple is that? What's the problem with that? Oh without full visibility things will revert!! No they will not. Why does everybody think that they have to preach all the time? All this Pride anti gluten Pro vegan toxic masculinity let's bubble wrap the world so that nobody gets a boo-boo people are pissing me the fuck off. Stop with your Crusades and leave everybody alone and people will leave you alone too. And quit being such babies. Just because your Femme doesn't mean you need to be a bitch. It's toxic femininity that's what it is. And if you're not a bitch everybody tries to attack you. Well I'm not afraid of the bitches. You just need to get a grip.


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## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Don't confuse isolated prejudice with systemic oppression.


So constantly blaming negative reviews on 'male toxicity' is not systemic?
I really don't get how the people who are supposed to be the most progressive/pro-rights also end up being the ones perpetrating the very same type of prejudice they're calling out.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> So constantly blaming negative reviews on 'male toxicity' is not systemic?
> I really don't get how the people who are supposed to be the most progressive/pro-rights also end up being the ones perpetrating the very same type of prejudice they're calling out.


Don't confuse toxic masculinity with masculinity.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> So constantly blaming negative reviews on 'male toxicity' is not systemic?
> I really don't get how the people who are supposed to be the most progressive/pro-rights also end up being the ones perpetrating the very same type of prejudice they're calling out.


Preach!


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> More ridiculous bulshit. Look, if you don't want to be judged keep it to yourself and leave everybody else alone about it. Otherwise you brought all of the Prejudice and bullshit upon yourself. Get used to it LOL. Why should try so hard to make one group feel comfortable while the other one doesn't? Everybody has their Kinks everybody has their private life. As long as they keep it private nobody judges them. The minute you go and put it in someone's face you deserve the ridicule. You must want it. That's why you do it. Pitching that I have to accept you is bullshit. Because if your feelings have validity then so do mine. I personally don't care what you do I just don't want to hear about it or see it because I don't care to see it. I don't see what the problem is. Keep your bullshit to yourself or expect someone to call you out on it once in awhile. I'm convinced you all really like that anyway. I'm convinced that that's what you're going for in the first place. Waiting for someone to say something so you can jump all over them about it. Let's Make a Deal everybody leave each other alone and then they'll be no problem. How fucking simple is that? What's the problem with that? Oh without full visibility things will revert!! No they will not. Why does everybody think that they have to preach all the time? All this Pride anti gluten Pro vegan toxic masculinity let's bubble wrap the world so that nobody gets a boo-boo people are pissing me the fuck off. Stop with your Crusades and leave everybody alone and people will leave you alone too. And quit being such babies. Just because your Femme doesn't mean you need to be a bitch. It's toxic femininity that's what it is. And if you're not a bitch everybody tries to attack you. Well I'm not afraid of the bitches. You just need to get a grip.


If you're going to call my responses "ridiculous bullshit," have the courage to tag me. Also, you're probably going to get this thread locked.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Don't confuse toxic masculinity with masculinity.


He doesn't seem to be the one who's confused


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Don't confuse toxic masculinity with masculinity.


I am not.
I'm sorry, you're not providing an argument. A certain category of the population is constantly targeted right now for anything that isn't pro lgbt or pro feminism and that isn't "right" by any mean, as it targets people by proxy.
If I didn't like Star Wars, it has nothing to do with the color of my skin or my sexuality or my gender, but this type of fallacy comes back everytime and is relayed by a lot of medias and is targeted at one category of people based on the color of their skin, their gender and their sexuality. That's typically the type of prejudice you guys should be fighting to eradicate.
Any argument that will start with "but historically" is dishonest at best. It does not matter, if you're truly for equality, you shouldn't be looking for payback of revenge, you should genuinely be against all types of prejudice.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> If you're going to call my responses "ridiculous bullshit," have the courage to tag me. Also, you're probably going to get this thread locked.


Courage has nothing to do with it. You know you're being ridiculous. I like your conviction your logic is flawed. There's no way in hell that you have a right to be in my face there's no way that saying keep it to yourself and stop offending people is a bad thing. Nobody has a right to belong. People shouldn't really want to anyway. We should just leave people alone about it. Your sexuality means something to you but I don't give a damn. And I really shouldn't. Because I have a life. Just saying. You're not courageous. I am not impressed. You don't deserve a cookie just for being yourself. And I don't care to hear about it. If you put it in my face oh, you deserve the comments. That's your bad


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> I am not.
> I'm sorry, you're not providing an argument. A certain category of the population is constantly targeted right now for anything that isn't pro lgbt or pro feminism and that isn't "right" by any mean, as it targets people by proxy.
> If I didn't like Star Wars, it has nothing to do with the color of my skin or my sexuality or my gender, but this type of fallacy comes back everytime and is relayed by a lot of medias and is targeted at one category of people based on the color of their skin, their gender and their sexuality. That's typically the type of prejudice you guys should be fighting to eradicate.
> Any argument that will start with "but historically" is dishonest at best. It does not matter, if you're truly for equality, you shouldn't be looking for payback of revenge, you should genuinely be against all types of prejudice.





mikefor20 said:


> He doesn't seem to be the one who's confused


If you're going to argue males are systematically oppressed and then cite the usage of the term "toxic masculinity" as evidence for that, then you are confusing the two.

Also, if you're arguing that calling out homophobes is oppression (against the homophobes), I'm not particularly interested in that conversation. Freedom of speech doesn't include freedom from consequences.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mikefor20 said:


> Courage has nothing to do with it. You know you're being ridiculous. I like your conviction your logic is flawed. There's no way in hell that you have a right to be in my face there's no way that saying keep it to yourself and stop offending people is a bad thing. Nobody has a right to belong. People shouldn't really want to anyway. We should just leave people alone about it. Your sexuality means something to you but I don't give a damn. And I really shouldn't. Because I have a life. Just saying. You're not courageous. I am not impressed. You don't deserve a cookie just for being yourself. And I don't care to hear about it. If you put it in my face oh, you deserve the comments. That's your bad


When you spew sexist and homophobic bile like you did, you're going to get called out. As I just said before, freedom of speech doesn't include freedom from the consequences of that speech.


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## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Wow once again more bullshit. Telling you to be discreet is not homophobic it's just a good taste. I actually don't have any more time for you. I hope you get all those issues worked out. Your daddy can't hurt you anymore. Maybe the nightmares will stop. LOL. Keep it to yourself or more judgment will come your way no matter what you do. And that goes for the way you do anything in life. Maybe you need a baba and a nice nap.


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## Nerdtendo (Jul 8, 2019)

SuperDan said:


> We live out in the deep south . Life is much simpler . My boys are 8 & 12 all they care about is games & hunting atm .


Oh good. I'm already in Texas. I think I'll stick around


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## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> Wow once again more bullshit. Telling you to be discreet is not homophobic it's just a good taste. I actually don't have any more time for you. I hope you get all those issues worked out. Your daddy can't hurt you anymore. Maybe the nightmares will stop. LOL. Keep it to yourself or more judgment will come your way no matter what you do. And that goes for the way you do anything in life. Maybe you need a baba and a nice nap.


Telling a person to hide his or her sexual identity is homophobic.

Also, you're projections are unimpressive, and they don't deserve a response.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> If you're going to argue males are systematically oppressed and then cite the usage of the term "toxic masculinity" as evidence for that, then you are confusing the two.
> 
> Also, if you're arguing that calling out homophobes is oppression (against the homophobes), I'm not particularly interested in that conversation. Freedom of speech doesn't include freedom from consequences.



You got everything wrong.

"toxic masculinity" is a term used by medias (and twitter people it seems) as a shield whenever they're not happy with a backslash. Happened with a lot of game/movie flops recently.
The FACT that they are calling it "toxic masculinity" where what is really is is just people disliking something IS prejudice. It wouldn't if it was "toxic people", but the fact is when you mention a gender, you're encasing a category of the population based on a physical property of said people. Freedom of consequences? What do you do of that silly guy that's just there supporting all kinds of change and is now targeted by proxy as a male? Naah, I guess not all the fights for equality are worth fighting for.
And guess what? There are women disliking the new Star Wars! Gay people too! There are natives who had no issue with how G&W was depicted in Smash Bros! These voices are NEVER heard for some reason.

Still can't see why that's a problem? Well sorry, can't help any more than that. Being blind to double standards is so much easier, let's all jump in the bandwagon and shame the scapegoat.




Lacius said:


> Also, if you're arguing that calling out homophobes is oppression (against the homophobes)


When it's actually homophobia yes.
But when people are trigger-happy with that word it needs to be called out to. Not all comments are homophobic. Questioning the pride definitely isn't.
If it's about having to hide it, then I agree with the homophobic nature of that comment.
However, not hiding it does not mean going over the top at all costs when in public.


----------



## Sono (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> I honestly don't know what you're arguing here.



I'm not arguing, I just stated what I'm seeing.




Lacius said:


> respectfully, whether or not you think jokes are allowed is at the bottom of my list of concerns, and I don't think you would find much agreement.
> 
> An LGBT joke, depending on the joke, can be distasteful. I made a gay joke earlier in the thread about someone throwing shade around about Pride outfits. It wasn't in poor taste, and it's fine.
> 
> What's also fine is referencing a person's typo. It was mildly funny, and nobody got hurt. If someone did get hurt because I acknowledged a typo, that person needs to grow thicker skin. It wasn't an insult.



I'm just saying that jokes can make someone look like they aren't serious, which makes it hard to look at what they have to say and take it seriously (as in, not see it as a complete joke).




Lacius said:


> You should plan ahead next time. Life is full of minor inconveniences, and the gays are not responsible for your problems.



If you read back my post then I clearly stated that I planned many hours ahead.




Lacius said:


> It's impossible for you to call for the operation of homophobic minds when they're complaining about an LGBT event, regardless of the specific aspects they're complaining about. True homophobes are never going to be happy with Pride, obviously, so they're also irrelevant to the conversation.



My entire family is racist, and most of them are also LGBT-phobe. I did learn over the many years to recognize when they are hating LGBT or hating generally the people themselves. Also, we have such language constructs which makes it even easier to tell the difference.




Lacius said:


> The LGBT community isn't the bully; it's society's systemic issues that have necessitated Pride in the first place. If you don't want Pride to be a thing, then as a member of society, it's partly your responsibility to end the need for Pride.



(see my edit)

But yes, I give you the point on this one.




Lacius said:


> I doubt Pride is the only event that causes the same kinds of inconveniences. If it is, then you don't have much to complain about if the only substantive traffic problem happens once a year for you.



...you know what? Fair enough. Let's just hope that (as mentioned above) the marching day doesn't fall on an exam date when you require everything to work, otherwise you have thrown out years of your life for nothing.




Lacius said:


> Disruption for attention is often the point of a protest.



I think there can be attention without distruption. I have seen people getting attention without disruption, and it worked out quite well for them. They didn't try to shove down anything on you if you *politely* told them that you sadly can't help them with that.




Lacius said:


> Contrasting outwardly gay people with "normal people" is an example of why Pride is necessary.



I think the opposite should happen. I think LGBT people should be integrated into the society (as in, accepted, treated as a normal human being) instead of being contrasted and be the center of attention.

I think this is the main problem with the LGBT movement for the people neutral (as in, not ally, nor enemy) to the LGBT community.

Also, don't come with "sending them back to the closet". Read again. Those minority who want to be the center of attention can do so at their own discretion. I'm pretty sure most LGBT people only want a better life, and want to be treated as a normal human being, and not always being in the center of attention.
Why do you think big well-known celebrities have so many haters? Because they are the center of attention.

Again, I repeat: I know some LGBT people also want to be the center of attention. That's fine. But it's only a minority. Most of them only want to get rid of the bullying because of who they are, and want to be accepted as-is, and couldn't care about the slightest of being in the center of attention.




Lacius said:


> I don't see the problem with there being some racy attire, and it also doesn't address the topic of whether or not Pride should exist.



I'm trying to stay as side-neutral as possible to prevent any bias from leaking into my well though-out ... text (opinion is usually biased, and I don't want too much of that). I don't see how that's race-y, but I didn't wanted to do that.

It really doesn't address if pride should exist or not. I'm just saying that there are more effective ways of dealing with this problem, which cause less distraction, and in turn less angry people, and thus more people who are going to be likely to support this change.




Lacius said:


> Historically, people were told that gay people lived sad and lonely lives without fulfillment. One of the purposes of Pride was to correct this false narrative. That's part of the reason why Pride is fun and lively. I'm also not particularly interested in talking about why Pride should be fun, because that's pointless. Something is allowed to be fun for the sake of being fun. If you're going to tell me why it should not be fun, I'm listening.



I thought that "gay" meant happy and silly and fun. Besides, I'm pretty sure they could've just escaped somewhere and had some fun time together every day or week or however often they were able to meet. But I digress.

Also yes, I worded my response a bit badly; English is not my main language. I meant that in my opinion fun should come second or third, not first. If you want fun, you could just go onto a regular (gender-neutral - nobody cares what you are because you are accepted regardless - ) parade.

Also sure, nobody said they can't have fun and be proud, but everything has its limits. Again, minority, but sadly it's always the minority which has the loudest bark/noise/voice/<insert any sound-related term>.




Lacius said:


> If you don't want to be called out on suggesting that gay people should at least somewhat go back into the closet, don't do it.



I didn't do it, hence I pointed out that you should not do it, because I knew that you were going to point it out.



Lacius said:


> I'm not saying this is something that cannot and never happens, but children generally aren't anymore afraid of Pride than any other parade-like event. This is a false narrative.



I'll give this a pass. Let's assume this is true, and I'll keep it in mind after you pointer out that it's only a minority who are the "weird" ones.



Lacius said:


> In what world does that address my point?



Exhibitionists are expressing their identity in a way which is not really great, especially for children. They shouldn't "go as big as they want". That's what I meant. (and because my wording is bad, I'm clarifying that with this I'm no way saying that LGBT are exhibitionists. Thanks)

In my opinion inflating a balloon too much bursts it, and it hurts. This also somewhat applies here. Trying to "show off" (bad wording, you should get what I mean) too much will eventually backlash.



Lacius said:


> Don't confuse isolated prejudice with systemic oppression.



Yeah, I did mix it up.

But men are systematically oppressed in some ways: they are not allowed to take a woman's job, not allowed to wear long skirts, and are expected to be muscly hulks who can bear any pain which hits them.
Which in my opinion is bullshit. This may be related to the LGBT, but you don't have to be gay or trans or anything to have these affect you.



Lacius said:


> There is a difference between "men aren't systemically oppressed" and "straight cis white males are worthless." Don't put words in my mouth. I'm get bored when other people argue against strawmen.



I didn't put enough line breaks to separate that from the thing above it. I didn't say the two are related, I just stated that this thread feels like anyone non-LGBT's opinions are invalid because they aren't pro-LGBT.

This is only an opinion though, this is how I see it, so take it as that.



Lacius said:


> I never said straight white men don't have a right to live.
> I'm not sure why straight white men would have "any say in the LGBT rights movement." If you mean to suggest that I'm arguing they can't have an opinion on the LGBT rights movement, I never said that. Don't confuse my correcting of misinformation or calling out homophobia as a suggestion that people don't have a right to an opinion.



1) I didn't say that either. Probably bad wording.
2) because "straight cis" people are which cause this problem in the first place? It's not possible to solve this problem without both sides coming to an equilibrium, an "agreement" which is very good to both sides. I don't know how to word this, so you have to unpack the previous sentence to understand what I meant.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Telling a person to hide his or her sexual identity is homophobic.
> 
> Also, you're projections are unimpressive, and they don't deserve a response.



I don't see why your sexual identity has to be a part of everything you do. Ridiculous. Obsess much? Keep it to yourself and it's all good dude


----------



## AmandaRose (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> I don't see why your sexual identity has to be a part of everything you do. Ridiculous. Obsess much? Keep it to yourself and it's all good dude


What I would say to that is the following.

If I tell people I am a trans woman I get a whole load of abuse and told to stop telling people.

If I don't tell people I'm trans and then they find out I then get a whole lot of abuse and told I should have told them straight away and not have kept it quiet.

I have had both the above happen to me on this site and IRL in the past.

So if I keep it to myself like you say then I get abuse and if I honest about who I am I get abuse so which one am I meant to do?


----------



## Sono (Jul 8, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> What I would say to that is the following.
> 
> If I tell people I am a trans woman I get a whole load of abuse and told to stop telling people.
> 
> ...



I think it's because women are sadly abused a lot by men (both verbally and physically, ranging from perverted things to straight up physical attacks), and has little to do with being trans.

I know there is a minority who explicitly target trans people, but here the underlying source of the problem is being a woman in this society, and has very little to do with being trans.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> What I would say to that is the following.
> 
> If I tell people I am a trans woman I get a whole load of abuse and told to stop telling people.
> 
> ...



Quite honestly I can't relate as I've never faced that problem, but going to conventions I've made gender mistakes in the past.
I think there can be wrong behaviors on both sides:
- If you tell the gender you wish to be called, and they insist on calling you something else or make fun of you for that, they are bullies, this is actual transphobia and you should probably stay away from them
- If you tell the gender you wish to be called, and they make a mistake here and there, I think it shouldn't be a big deal. It can be genuinely hard to someone to get their mind around the idea of a gender swap. Doesn't mean they meant to hurt.
- If you don't tell the gender, but then get all pissy, I believe it's 100% on you.
- If you tell a non binary gender, I believe you're pushing it to a degree that the society isn't ready to accept, and I don't think "the society" should be blamed for that. I would keep that for my circle of friends for now. I also don't believe that not understanding the point of "non binary" is transphobic.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Telling a person to hide his or her sexual identity is homophobic.



Is that what in the poster in question was suggesting?

I am no fan of don't ask, don't tell. I can similarly see "just pretend like you are not" being a troubling course of action to suggest. There is something of a gulf between that and being told you are bad person for not condoning someone, or indeed 50 someones synchronously*, gyrating down the high street on a Saturday afternoon in a nowt but a jockstrap of leather and combat boots, which if I am reading their previous posts correctly (some I only skimmed) seems to be more where they are coming from**.

**and doing the "if the roles were reversed"/with no other context test then I dare say they are not without a point. Shock factor can be something useful at times but I am still going to question if it is not preaching to the choir and being unlikely to win others over.

*or if the various bits of footage I saw was anything to go by then anything but synchronously, though I suppose defying stereotypes is something some people seek to do.


----------



## Deleted-481927 (Jul 8, 2019)

Minox said:


> I think once upon a time pride festivals served a point, but the way they have evolved into flaunting sexual fetishes makes me wonder if this is how most LGBT people want to be viewed or if maybe just maybe they want to live like just about anyone else.


It's a celebration of how far we've come - and how much more there is to do.

Look at Birmingham LGBT teaching row, Brunei, many other places, just because it's legal doesnt mean its accepted to be trans, non binary, gay, bi, ace, etc.

There's still progress to be made throughout society.


----------



## XDel (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> For much of history, LGBT people have been met with violence and discrimination. They've been told to deny who they are or to at least hide it. Pride parades are a counterprotest to that, symbolizing the famous phrase, "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it."
> 
> Without pride and pride parades, basic LGBT identity would be challenged.




Does this come from your own objective observation and research, or is this something you have just heard repeated over and over again like it were a fact?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



yusuo said:


> Im all for equal opportunities for all, man/woman/gay/straight/other. However I've never seen the point of pride parades, my main argument is lgbt peeps want to be a place where theyre equal but throw big spectacles where they're the centre of attention.
> 
> I know this is just my naivety as a straight male and without knowing anyone on a close personal level where the importance can be explained to me I resort to asking the forum as I know as we have a diverse community here.
> 
> Just for the record, I'm all for equal rights, what a person does in their own life's shouldn't affect anyone but them as long as people aren't hurting each other (without consent) alls good with me.




Here ya go:


----------



## orangy57 (Jul 8, 2019)

They march because they need to use greater measures so that people can finally accept them, often times people will just say that they're fine with LGBT people but only "as long as they're not talking to me." This shouldn't be the case though, they need to spread their message so that they'll finally be normalized in society and not outcasts that "regular" people don't want to be around. LGBT people have also been trying for their rights for hundreds of years, so it's kinda time for them to celebrate for all those who were marginalized and discriminated against due to their sexuality.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> You got everything wrong.
> 
> "toxic masculinity" is a term used by medias (and twitter people it seems) as a shield whenever they're not happy with a backslash. Happened with a lot of game/movie flops recently.
> The FACT that they are calling it "toxic masculinity" where what is really is is just people disliking something IS prejudice. It wouldn't if it was "toxic people", but the fact is when you mention a gender, you're encasing a category of the population based on a physical property of said people. Freedom of consequences? What do you do of that silly guy that's just there supporting all kinds of change and is now targeted by proxy as a male? Naah, I guess not all the fights for equality are worth fighting for.
> ...


That's not what toxic masculinity is.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

XDel said:


> Does this come from your own objective observation and research, or is this something you have just heard repeated over and over again like it were a fact?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Objective observation and research.


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

I didn't say that coming out of the closet was a bad thing. I didn't say to hide your sexuality. I simply said it doesn't need to be a component in everything you do. And who are you trying to kid if you telling me that the only way you identify sexually is if you dress up as a giant caterpillar with a dick hanging off your face? That's what I'm talkin about. I'm not denying your right to do it but I don't think you then say you don't deserve to be criticized for it. You're doing things that are making other people uncomfortable. Then you're going to hear their comments. That's what I'm saying. Not to hide who you are. Are you really so flaming that you can't maintain? That you can't fit in when you need to? You don't have to let it fly all the time right? That sounds like an addict to me. An obsession. That's what I'm saying. For the record I have many friends and family members who are gay. I don't give a fuck. I'm saying running around doing a bunch of stuff that makes other people feel uncomfortable and telling them it's their responsibility to get used to it is stupid. Selfish.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 8, 2019)

Lacius said:


> That's not what toxic masculinity is.


You know, you can keep answering with one sentence statements and no arguments. My comment already answers that: It doesn't matter, it is used as an excuse to target a category of people.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Is that what in the poster in question was suggesting?
> 
> I am no fan of don't ask, don't tell. I can similarly see "just pretend like you are not" being a troubling course of action to suggest. There is something of a gulf between that and being told you are bad person for not condoning someone, or indeed 50 someones synchronously*, gyrating down the high street on a Saturday afternoon in a nowt but a jockstrap of leather and combat boots, which if I am reading their previous posts correctly (some I only skimmed) seems to be more where they are coming from**.
> 
> ...


Yes, that is what he was suggesting. If you haven't done so, also check out his earlier posts where he says men shouldn't act feminine in front of him (as well as a lot of other homophobic nonsense).


----------



## mikefor20 (Jul 8, 2019)

Orangy57 said:


> They march because they need to use greater measures so that people can finally accept them, often times people will just say that they're fine with LGBT people but only "as long as they're not talking to me." This shouldn't be the case though, they need to spread their message so that they'll finally be normalized in society and not outcasts that "regular" people don't want to be around. LGBT people have also been trying for their rights for hundreds of years, so it's kinda time for them to celebrate for all those who were marginalized and discriminated against due to their sexuality.



Backwards logic to me. Showing me something I don't like over and over again makes me accept it? No. That makes it worse usually. Use a little logic and less campaign statements. I realize that these arguments have been had before and you guys have your little slogans you like to use and think you won but I don't think you even know what you're talking about in the first place. Punching someone more doesn't make it hurt less.  It just pisses them off. And be real you are celebrating for yourselves. You're not servicing anybody but yourselves.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> You know, you can keep answering with one sentence statements and no arguments. My comment already answers that: It doesn't matter, it is used as an excuse to target a category of people.


I've wasted a lot of time in this thread, and I'm probably not going to do that again. If you aren't going to do very basic research on toxic masculinity before throwing around the term incorrectly, I don't exactly see it as my burden to spoon-feed you a lesson on what the difference is between masculinity (which isn't bad) and toxic masculinity (which is bad).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mikefor20 said:


> I don't see why your sexual identity has to be a part of everything you do. Ridiculous. Obsess much? Keep it to yourself and it's all good dude


You don't know anything about my sexual identity, so I'm not sure how I'm obsessing over it.


----------



## orangy57 (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> Backwards logic to me. Showing me something I don't like over and over again makes me accept it? No. That makes it worse usually. Use a little logic and less campaign statements. I realize that these arguments have been had before and you guys have your little slogans you like to use and think you won but I don't think you even know what you're talking about in the first place. Punching someone more doesn't make it hurt less.  It just pisses them off. And be real you are celebrating for yourselves. You're not servicing anybody but yourselves.



so wait you're saying you don't like gay people


----------



## Lacius (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> And be real you are celebrating for yourselves. You're not servicing anybody but yourselves.


As I said very early in our conversation, something doesn't have to be selfless for it to be morally good. Ending slavery and combating racism were selfish endeavors, technically speaking.

At the same time, however, creating a more just society for one group makes it a more just society for everyone.


----------



## AmandaRose (Jul 8, 2019)

mikefor20 said:


> I'm saying running around doing a bunch of stuff that makes other people feel uncomfortable and telling them it's their responsibility to get used to it is stupid. Selfish.


We have a lifetime of being made to feel uncomfortable by homophobic/transphobic people you are made to feel uncomfortable 1 day a year.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 9, 2019)

Lacius said:


> I've wasted a lot of time in this thread, and I'm probably not going to do that again. If you aren't going to do very basic research on toxic masculinity before throwing around the term incorrectly, I don't exactly see it as my burden to spoon-feed you a lesson on what the difference is between masculinity (which isn't bad) and toxic masculinity (which is bad).



You wouldn't be wasting your time if you were reading what people were telling you. It's the second time I'm telling you it doesn't matter what it truly means since it fallaciously used non stop by different social actors.
Take another commonly used hasty generalization: "middle age straight white male" to negatively talk about some people. Nothing bad with any of these words, and yet used to mock a category of people.

But again, if you weren't able to see the double standard previously, you're not going to start now.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> You wouldn't be wasting your time if you were reading what people were telling you. It's the second time I'm telling you it doesn't matter what it truly means since it fallaciously used non stop by different social actors.
> Take another commonly used hasty generalization: "middle age straight white male" to negatively talk about some people. Nothing bad with any of these words, and yet used to mock a category of people.
> 
> But again, if you weren't able to see the double standard previously, you're not going to start now.


And now, once again, you're confusing an isolated thing with systemic oppression.

But again, if you weren't able to see the difference previously, you're not going to start now.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 9, 2019)

Lacius said:


> And now, once again, you're confusing an isolated thing with systemic oppression.
> 
> But again, if you weren't able to see the difference previously, you're not going to start now.



It's not isolated at all. Like at all.


----------



## Lacius (Jul 9, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> It's not isolated at all. Like at all.


I don't think you know what systemic oppression is. The powerful majority cannot be systemically oppressed, by definition. What you're describing are isolated incidents.


----------



## deinonychus71 (Jul 9, 2019)

Lacius said:


> I don't think you know what systemic oppression is. The powerful majority cannot be systemically oppressed, by definition. What you're describing are isolated incidents.


So first, I hope we both agree that "majority" in terms of number never mattered. There are more men than women, there are more poor than rich, etc. Pretty easy to find counter examples.
Second, "powerful majority": Are you going to make me link you to all these website of mainstream media relaying this kind of fallacies and then tell me they're "the minority"? Polygon, IGN, Kotaku? If we're talking about "powerful", they're the one "in power" related to the influence they are spreading, so they're totally able to establish "systematic oppression".

I'm not even asking for anyone to feel "bad" for anyone. Sure historically these things don't compare to what LGBTs and people of color have lived. It's not even close. But it is absolutely ridiculous to answer to bullying by becoming bullies ourselves. People living now didn't take part to any past abuse. This along with the constant need of reminding everyone we are victims is why I will never follow LGBT movements.
Well that, and because within LGBT communities you see pretty awful stuff that MILES worse than anything I've read on this thread


----------



## FAST6191 (Jul 9, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> What I would say to that is the following.
> 
> If I tell people I am a trans woman I get a whole load of abuse and told to stop telling people.
> 
> ...



It is not necessarily a topic I would started myself but if you went first then OK.

I have not seen your PMs or profile posts so can't speak to those as far as the site is concerned (if there were any arseholes there then hopefully you brushed them off), and real life I will skip for this one. Site wise you seemed to make a big deal about the username change and out and out declaring yourself as such*, fair enough really -- if you particularly felt the need to do that and found it helpful then so be it (given your apparent age, location, cultural background and knowing something of it I imagine a lot of confusion and inclination to hide things in your past. A ritual shedding of that in some of a "no going back now" is then something I have seen be helpful in the past). After that you seem to have brought it up a fair bit and wedged it in places where it is of dubious relevance at best, occasionally also as some kind of shield or potential argument if not ender then "I R expart" type thing**. Though in the case of the latter never in a matter where it is completely irrelevant or like I have seen some do to see people some people terrified of causing offence shut down, which I would say is credit to you but that would be an insult (I think seriously low of people that try that one, and you have shown far too much cunning to hopefully ever go in for such dubious debate tactics). Can't say I have been there all your posts but it seems we cover much the same ground on the forums and I would say based on that I am slightly dubious of the "abuse if I do, abuse if I hold back" thing as far as they are concerned, though the previous caveat is still in place.

*very far (numbers and time) from the first person to do so, probably won't be the last, indeed I don't think you are at this point but I tend not to keep track of the various aspects of the coming out threads).

**it might well be that you are as far as such matters are concerned, and it might be part of my personal preference for giving people enough rope to hang themselves/hiding my abilities as a means of debate that sees me pick up on it.

Previously we found we have differing opinions on the nature of certain things (a big one being whether someone should end up in front of the beak for deliberately using the non preferred pronouns), and judging by the quotes in some of your avatars we might have further differing opinions on certain matters***, but in general it does seem like a lot of this culminates in a preaching to the choir/raging amongst allies sense of things which almost feels like spam, conversation derailment (if somewhat unintentional), or wasted text. From what I have seen most of the core community here is of the "My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like" persuasion (others that might not have seen such words before then it is a snippet of https://joshhighland.com/2007/08/28/mentors-last-words-the-hacker-manifesto/ ) which only adds to this sense of things.

***the "trans women are women too" one from the other day probably being a start there. Right now it is common thrown out as something of a counter to the terfs and while I don't find them terribly good in their approach I don't disagree with their opposition to the "if you don't sleep with me because I am trans then you are a bigot" notion. Happy to use the given pronouns, happy to call a relationship where you shack up with a woman a lesbian relationship, but if someone does not care to shack up because you are trans then I am not even going to call that person an arsehole as it seems like a perfectly fine thing to put down to personal preference.

For me to judge a person on wasted text though...

Don't really know what to answer the final question with, and would probably look for more nuance there. I would say feel free to make a blog about an issue because of the whole trans thing, a debate thread framed around, have it in profile info if you want and by all means note it in a discussion but think hard if it is really of relevance if putting it in a thread. On the flip side if you want to be a lightning rod (not a position without merit; I imagine you would be the first to say "PM me if you think I can help here, your confidence is assured") then expect shocks. If you don't change anything at all then all is still good as far as I am concerned -- continue to share industry stories, discuss games of old and games of the day, spar in debates, and otherwise help people with their issues (technical or otherwise) on the forums and you are doing pretty much everything these forums focus on and revolve around.



samhhhhh said:


> It's a celebration of how far we've come - and how much more there is to do.
> 
> Look at Birmingham LGBT teaching row, Brunei, many other places, just because it's legal doesnt mean its accepted to be trans, non binary, gay, bi, ace, etc.
> 
> There's still progress to be made throughout society.


On the Birmingham thing then while I have little respect of the "muh religion" argument then having seen the syllabus I do have to wonder what problems it is addressing, and the efficacy of it all (which includes the downsides).


Brunei. Other countries, and the seeming lack of concern for them among many groups (never mind the odd love affair many people that would screech at me about homophobia have for the religions and practices of places that are demonstrably dangerous for such people to live in), is a thing that concerns, however I am not entirely sure what a parade as we see this last few years is supposed to address there.


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## Lacius (Jul 9, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> So first, I hope we both agree that "majority" in terms of number never mattered. There are more men than women, there are more poor than rich, etc. Pretty easy to find counter examples.
> Second, "powerful majority": Are you going to make me link you to all these website of mainstream media relaying this kind of fallacies and then tell me they're "the minority"? Polygon, IGN, Kotaku? If we're talking about "powerful", they're the one "in power" related to the influence they are spreading, so they're totally able to establish "systematic oppression".
> 
> I'm not even asking for anyone to feel "bad" for anyone. Sure historically these things don't compare to what LGBTs and people of color have lived. It's not even close. But it is absolutely ridiculous to answer to bullying by becoming bullies ourselves. People living now didn't take part to any past abuse. This along with the constant need of reminding everyone we are victims is why I will never follow LGBT movements.
> Well that, and because within LGBT communities you see pretty awful stuff that MILES worse than anything I've read on this thread


Your post, and I truly mean this respectfully, is a little rambling, and I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you arguing that straight white men, for example, are not the powerful majority? Are you arguing they are systemically oppressed? If so, how are they being systemically oppressed? Some people using the term "middle age straight white male" in a negative way isn't systemic oppression.


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## deinonychus71 (Jul 9, 2019)

Lacius said:


> Your post, and I truly mean this respectfully, is a little rambling, and I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you arguing that straight white men, for example, are not the powerful majority? Are you arguing they are systemically oppressed? If so, how are they being systemically oppressed? Some people using the term "middle age straight white male" in a negative way isn't systemic oppression.


It derivated from you saying white men cannot be oppressed nor will they ever be. Quite a few posts before that.
And I strongly disagree that it can never be the case since there's more and more examples of that surfacing.


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## Lacius (Jul 9, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> It derivated from you saying white men cannot be oppressed nor will they ever be. Quite a few posts before that.
> And I strongly disagree that it can never be the case since there's more and more examples of that surfacing.


I'd like to know where I said that white men cannot be oppressed (I didn't). There's always going to be someone who hates you, regardless of your demographics and identities.

In reality, I said they will never be systemically oppressed like women, racial minorities, LGBT minorities, etc.


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## Ericthegreat (Jul 9, 2019)

I got an interesting question, at pride parades (there are many in my area), people bring their kids more and more lately, why do some guys still feel the need to whip their dick out, I always imagined this wasnt a real thing and just something people said to make it seem like something really bad was happening, but seems it isnt >.>; If it was 18+ I really wouldnt care, but I see more and more kids going to these. I really think they need to decide, either 18+ or family events.... (I know this is not condoned by the events, just seems no one cares if it happens)


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## ignare (Jul 9, 2019)

not usually any point lol


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## Lacius (Jul 9, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> I got an interesting question, at pride parades (there are many in my area), people bring their kids more and more lately, why do some guys still feel the need to whip their dick out, I always imagined this wasnt a real thing and just something people said to make it seem like something really bad was happening, but seems it isnt >.>; If it was 18+ I really wouldnt care, but I see more and more kids going to these. I really think they need to decide, either 18+ or family events.... (I know this is not condoned by the events, just seems no one cares if it happens)


My experience has been they're generally kid friendly, but that's obviously not always the case.


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## Heichart (Jul 9, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> I got an interesting question, at pride parades (there are many in my area), people bring their kids more and more lately, why do some guys still feel the need to whip their dick out, I always imagined this wasnt a real thing and just something people said to make it seem like something really bad was happening, but seems it isnt >.>; If it was 18+ I really wouldnt care, but I see more and more kids going to these. I really think they need to decide, either 18+ or family events.... (I know this is not condoned by the events, just seems no one cares if it happens)



The same way people stick out their dicks in trains, bus, beach, any public place: parents can't know in advance some weird people think they are free of consequences for what they do.


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## AmandaRose (Jul 9, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> ***the "trans women are women too" one from the other day probably being a start there. Right now it is common thrown out as something of a counter to the terfs and while I don't find them terribly good in their approach I don't disagree with their opposition to the "if you don't sleep with me because I am trans then you are a bigot" notion. Happy to use the given pronouns, happy to call a relationship where you shack up with a woman a lesbian relationship, but if someone does not care to shack up because you are trans then I am not even going to call that person an arsehole as it seems like a perfectly fine thing to put down to personal preference.


The trans woman are women avatar was in direct response to comments in the last transgender thread where 5 site members all said that trans females were not women. Also that is the same thread where I said that if a trans woman called a man transphobic for not sleeping with them then the trans community would immediately have distanced themselfs from that woman. And that is exactly what we did when Lauren Harries did exactly that on Celebrity Big Brother a few years ago. So we are actually on the same page with that one..


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## Durelle (Jul 9, 2019)

Everybody deserves love and happiness.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 9, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> The trans woman are women avatar was in direct response to comments in the last transgender thread where 5 site members all said that trans females were not women. Also that is the same thread where I said that if a trans woman called a man transphobic for not sleeping with them then the trans community would immediately have distanced themselfs from that woman. And that is exactly what we did when Lauren Harries did exactly that on Celebrity Big Brother a few years ago. So we are actually on the same page with that one..


Fair enough. Guess it is one of those overloaded terms these days. Probably some more nuance to consider it in but nothing of great note.



Durelle said:


> Everybody deserves love and happiness.


I would say I don't.


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## Lucifer666 (Jul 10, 2019)

yusuo said:


> Hi lucifer, you're probably can give a decent opinion in this case then, can you advise me how marching in pride, and I guess in a sense identifying who you are at a scale be productive in the fight for equality and acceptance and in turn manage the ability to fit in and be anonymous while maintaining who you are.



Sure.

Because it sends a city-wide message of "we're here, we're queer, we are a large enough population to put together something this massive every year, and we're not going anywhere, so there's no getting rid of us"

to those who have a serious issue with it in terms of homophobia/transphobia, this acts as a solution because:

for those who are homophobic/transphobic out of ignorance: they are forced to come to terms with the fact that being gay or trans is a very real and valid experience that inevitably some of their friends/coworkers/doctors/teachers/fellow community members go through that needs to be respected rather than shunned
for those who are homophobic/transphobic out of sheer malice: when pride becomes a fundamental part of your city's identity, being the big yearly event that it is, homophobia/transphobia is less mainstream and more taboo, as it should be

I hope this explanation makes sense.

I personally feel safer moving somewhere given the knowledge that they have a pride parade. It means I likely won't be living in a community where I'm going to feel 'othered' every day of my life

I think that while those who claim "we don't need pride because we should be the same as heterosexual people who don't need pride" have a valid opinion it also stems from enormous amounts of privilege (typically white and in the anglosphere) such that they have never felt desperate to call for and enact change on a societal level before the true equality they speak of will ever be achievable. we don't get to equality by pretending that the issues that target minorities don't exist. If pride and pride month didn't exist I would not be able to find easy proof of widespread support for LGBT people to show to my notoriously bigoted Arab parents, as an example.

EDIT: @Memoir and @DinohScene in retrospect I think you might appreciate this insight, all of which is based on personal experience.


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## Mike9090 (Jul 10, 2019)

I asked this on a different site somewhere and it's such a big thing since 30 years ago being gay gould get you killed in some countries and it wasn't that normal to be gay or whatever. Now most (if not all) countries made it 'legal' to marry as a gay/lesbian couple. It's kind of like celebrating that your country won the war in a way.


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## cots (Jul 10, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> @Lacius, your posts are all split up and it makes it a little hard to figure out what you were referring to, however I think there's a middleground between "do it in the closet" and pride scale celebration.
> 
> For example, I don't think most people have an issue with a gay couple holding hands in public, I think they would have a problem with gay people kissing for five minutes though.
> But to be honest, people also tend to have issues with straight people kissing audibly for five minutes straight (ok maybe they don't point it out as much?). It's common decency at this point.
> ...



I don't have a problem with people holding hands. I do get uncomfortable when I see couples all over each other, kissing or having sex in public (I've witnessed both on multiple occasions, the latter less frequently). There are just sorts of behavior that aren't socially acceptable in a modern society and it would be ass backwards to start considering allowing people to do what they should be doing in private in public. Most people don't like the loudmouth crackhead one the corner harassing people, most people dislike the jerk blasting his radio on the city bus and most people dislike having to hear about your personal sexual preferences or watching you flaunt your "stuff" in front of them.

People that are truly phobic of something aren't going to change their minds easily nor should it be anyone's business to force them to change their minds. If they are acting out and causing problems because of their phobia then it should be considered an issue. Simply stating you dislike something or don't agree with it isn't any sort of phobic behavior. That's just the bullies using terminology incorrectly in an attempt to force their viewpoints on you.


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## Bullseye (Jul 10, 2019)

A summary of this thread:

OP: Question about Pride event

General reply: if you don't agree with anything in our (rainbow) agenda you are a [...]phobic. Any form of reply/argument against is an attack, therefore you are [...]phobic.

Conclusion: questions (or even lack of interest in the topic) are not tolerated in any form or way if they put in doubt any point in the (rainbow) agenda. And by all means it should be the most important thing in everyone's life at all given times.


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## AmandaRose (Jul 10, 2019)

@cots you keep saying you are not transphobic so have a look at this please. And here are some key points from it.

Transphobia can take many different forms, including


1 negative attitudes and beliefs


2 aversion to and prejudice against transgender people
3 disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity
Ok let's look at point 1 first you have severe negatively to the trans community as demonstrated in your posts above and in other threads

Ok next point 2. You have shown in several threads prejudice towards the trans community

Ok let's move to point 3. You keep discounting my gender identity.

You fail several things on this list of what is considered transphobic


You have came here with an agenda to turn what is  a thread about pride and the lgbt community into an attempt to single out and bash the trans community 
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/l...er-nonconforming-identities/whats-transphobia


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## cots (Jul 10, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> @cots you keep saying you are not transphobic so have a look at this please. And here are some key points from it.
> 
> Transphobia can take many different forms, including
> 
> ...




I disagree with your definition of this particular phobia (nor with the general consensus on the "anyone can edit me" wikipedia definition). While an aversion is an extreme dislike, simply not agreeing with someone, what they chose to identify themselves as or having a negative attitude isn't phobic. So aversion wouldn't fit under your current definition, even if the other two values were correct, but they aren't, because a phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, defined by a persistent and excessive fear of an object or situation. I'm not scared or trans people or have any sort of anxiety disorder because of what they believe in, I simply don't agree with a lot of them and the way they go about things.

I don't argue that you may identify as a female, but you have no right to tell me that I have to address you as a female, when you were born a biological male. That is interfering with my belief system. Now, that may be rude, but it's not any sort of phobic behavior. I'm going to chose to identify people based on their biological birth sex, not because I dislike trans people, but because I'm not going to even try to keep up with the current terminology on what people want to be called. If you can identify as anything it could get really tricky, so I rather take a cue from the Government and just address you as how you were born.

Abut the way I view the current people in the trans movement and most of their life style choices. You may view it as negative, but I don't. I think identifying them for what they are and not agreeing with them is a positive and healthy thing for me to do, nor is it extreme or severe. I don't see any negativity involved. You may, but I don't and since you're only taking your viewpoint into consideration I think it would only be fair to only take my viewpoint into consideration. Of course, life isn't fair, so that's also something you're going to have to realize and deal with.


> Ok let's look at point 1 first you have severe negatively to the trans community as demonstrated in your posts above and in other threads



Not the entire community, just most of the current stuff that is going down. Remember, the current trans movement doesn't encompass all of the trans people. The friends I have that are trans want nothing to do with it and think around the same as I do about the entire situation. We're older and have been around longer so we understand more about it then this younger more naive generation does.



> Ok next point 2. You have shown in several threads prejudice towards the trans community



Just the ones acting like clowns or trying to manipulate and control others to support their unhealthy, immoral and self destructing life style choices.



> Ok let's move to point 3. You keep discounting my gender identity.



I don't deny that you think you're a female because you identify as a female, but that doesn't change what I chose to identify you by, which would be your biological birth sex. You should respect my beliefs and the fact that this is what I chose to identify people as. You see, things like this go both ways. 



> You fail several things on this list of what is considered transphobic



As I've already stated, the term is being abused. Simply not liking or disagreeing with a particular way the current trans movement is being handled or the life style lead by some of it's members isn't phobic behavior. I'm not discriminating against trans people for simply disagreeing with how some of them go about life or the choices they make.



> You have came here with an agenda to turn what is  a thread about pride and the lgbt community into an attempt to single out and bash the trans community



No I haven't. I replied to the OP's post regarding parades, which was my first reply, and then I replied to the general conversation going on, like I would any other thread. If there wasn't discussion regarding the trans community here, I wouldn't have replied to it. I don't need to "bash" the trans community I'm referring to in my replies, they're doing a good job at doing that themselves. 




> https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/sexual-orientation-gender/trans-and-gender-nonconforming-identities/whats-transphobia



I see, the general consensus, from this organization is about on par with the wikipedia entry, so I also dismiss most of what they have to say based on this fact along with the fact that plannedparenthood supports and funds abortions.

_"may be denied jobs, housing, or health care, just because they’re transgender."_

This would be discrimination, therefor, it would fall under the category of transphobic behavior. You won't find me refusing anyone these services based solely on their chosen identity, but I sure as well could deny people services and be in my legal right for other factors that currently a lot of trans people participate in. Granted, these factors, which I've mention in my replies above (the entire "flamer" behavior) could be associated with anyone regardless if they are trans are not, I simply could refuse someone services because they are disrespectful, shoving their sexual identify in my face, harassing me, being abuse, bullying me, calling me names (including transphobic), etc ... That sort of behavior doesn't fly with me, not matter what you identify as.

_The stress of transphobia on trans people can be very harmful and can cause:    depression    fear    isolation    feelings of hopelessness    suicide
_
I could see how real discrimination, like the examples listed in my first italic quote, could contribute to these sorts of behaviors, but these sorts of behaviors are generally associated with mentally unstable people (people that don't know how to deal with their emotions in a positive manner). 

By misusing the terminology trans people are creating a hostile situation were younger, more vulnerable members might think that a general dislike is phobic behavior or that they are being abused and therefor turn to these bad coping mechanisms, but in reality they aren't being harmed by someone simply having an opposing viewpoint.

I don't have an answer on how to address people with mentally fragile minds, but teaching them people are mistreating them for simply not agreeing with their lifestyle choices is contributing to the problem. Maybe if the more competent trans members weren't trying to abuse the term and push their agenda on others to try to force them to accept their belief system the weaker minded members wouldn't get so upset.

_Cisgender people who are allies to trans people
_
This is a prime example of the sort of negative thinking that is being promoted in the community. That people are there enemies just because they disagree with them. You enemy is someone that is out to harm you, like, attack you or kill you, at best, deny your services or cause you harm. I'm not your enemy nor is someone who simply doesn't agree with you. I can see that mentally unstable people, who can't deal with opposing viewpoints or their own emotions could consider people not agreeing with them as some sort of personal attack, but it's more than likely not that way (you know, in reality, not in the "I'm going to kill myself because of XYZ" mood).

People are going to disagree with you on a daily basis about all sorts of things, and frankly, trans people can't seem to agree with their sex assigned at birth or that harming or altering your body, which was made perfect, is a sin. How do you expect that others should just change they way they think and agree with you when you can't even agree with yourself?

_What can I do to help stop transphobia?
_
These are laid out in a particular order, some would apply to actual discrimination, while others are just a polite way to go about things and then others are just being manipulative and basically saying you have to agree with them and act a certain way otherwise you're being transphobic, but in reality, if you're using the phobic term correctly, you're not. So I generally don't agree with this section.

Thanks for the link. I had no idea this pro-abortion organization addresses the issue and to be honest I'm surprised it's not 100% bias and full of misinformation, but overall I don't agree with most of it therefor don't consider it valid. Remember, I'm going off the definition of phobia's, real phobia's - not some Wikipedia entry that is being populated throughout the internet created solely by people that are currently involved in and support the current trans movement (which is why, if you do any sort of research on how bias and inaccurate wikipedia can be, you might see my point).

Of course, I've already come to the conclusion that I'm not experiencing any sort of extreme anxiety related to trans people. If you ask my old cross dressing weight lifting male friend (who identified as a female and shared various partners at the same time - not with me of course) how scared of him I get when we used to work weekly in the gym located in his basement he'd probably look at you funny and laugh.


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## Lacius (Jul 10, 2019)

cots said:


> I disagree with your definition of this particular phobia (nor with the general consensus on the "anyone can edit me" wikipedia definition).


_Definitions_ are literally just the "general consensus" of what a word means.


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## deinonychus71 (Jul 10, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> @cots you keep saying you are not transphobic so have a look at this please. And here are some key points from it.
> 
> Transphobia can take many different forms, including
> 
> ...



Hold on a second.
- Having different beliefs is absolutely acceptable. For example, someone saying "I personally think gender refers to your physiological attributes" as a general statement should not be burnt at the stake. I don't think that constitute transphobia at all. It's just disagreeing with a terminology. Transphobia would be assuming X or Y because you are trans, which would be your second point.

- Gender identity is a fairly new concept/social construct. You're demanding that people who were born with a specific moral compass to adapt to a new dogma that has NOT yet reached nationwide/worldwide adoption. It matters, because even though you may certainly be right, a lot of people were raised with a polar opposite idea of what gender is and with a specific set of values for guys and girls. It's "hardcoded" in them, and changing that isn't as simple as pressing a switch button.
That right there is what alt-left and alt-right alike don't understand. They're too quick at pointing fingers and calling everything evil and bad. Being open to peaceful debates is the only way to reach middlegrounds. It's a problem plaguing both extremes.
- Also point 2 about gender identity, I'm not sure if you include non binary genders into that, but if you do, I would please urge you to back down a little bit and try to see the point of view of the other side. There is currently 0 need in society for the recognition of more than 2 genders. You can be whatever you want, and ask to be called whatever you want, but ultimately I think it falls on non binary people to show how officially recognizing more than 2 genders is relevant. As a center-leftist, I really fail to see the relevance and am still waiting for someone to explain it to me.

- The whole concept of transgender(ism?) can be genuinely confusing, without meaning anything "bad": Is there even a consensus on what gender identity mean among transgender people? For example:
* If tomorrow genders are to be blended together and children should be able to enjoy playing with dolls regardless if they're physiologically male or female, what's even the point of using genders? 
* If genders make a difference, does that inform me about a set of activities/tendencies this person tend to prefer? Like if you're physiologically a man and call yourself a woman, does that mean you like pink (awfully simplified but you get the idea). 
I guess what i'm trying to say is... people can get genuinely confused as to what it means.


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## Lacius (Jul 10, 2019)

deinonychus71 said:


> For example, someone saying "I personally think gender refers to your physiological attributes" as a general statement should not be burnt at the stake. I don't think that constitute transphobia at all. It's just disagreeing with a terminology.


Right, and I agree with you, but if a person stubbornly refuses to acknowledge after the fact that people are using the word "gender" to refer to identity because they refuse to accept that one's gender identity can be different from one's physiology, that's transphobia and trans-erasure.


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## Lucifer666 (Jul 10, 2019)

Bullseye said:


> A summary of this thread:
> 
> OP: Question about Pride event
> 
> ...



Nice one. Care to provide even a single example of this?


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## osm70 (Jul 10, 2019)

Lacius said:


> I'd like to know where I said that white men cannot be oppressed (I didn't). There's always going to be someone who hates you, regardless of your demographics and identities.
> 
> In reality, I said they will never be systemically oppressed like women, racial minorities, LGBT minorities, etc.





Lacius said:


> My responses immediately follow the quoted text above.
> 
> 
> LGBT PDA and straight PDA is a big issue as well, and it's another reason for Pride. For example, while they arguably shouldn't be doing it, couples discovered to be having sex in a semi-public place are far more likely to be arrested if they're LGBT.
> ...



I think this is what they meant.


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