# The Sega Saturn DRM has been cracked after twenty years



## WooHyun (Jul 12, 2016)

So does this help anything in emulator development?


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## iAqua (Jul 12, 2016)

Am I the only one who has never heard of this console?


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## CeeDee (Jul 12, 2016)

Saturn: 20 years for crack. Unique DRM.
Dreamcast: Cracked instantly. Literally no DRM whatsoever. 

...Well then!


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## endoverend (Jul 12, 2016)

WooHyun said:


> So does this help anything in emulator development?


Quite possibly, and while it's too early to say since there is no release, having better control over the hardware is likely to bring more progress on that front as well as homebrew.


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## almmiron (Jul 12, 2016)

Since cartridge slot have advanced access to motherboard, iso loader by a possible flashcard perhaps is more close to be created? Hope so...


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## MeteK (Jul 12, 2016)

Gret news for Saturn's lovers like me 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



almmiron said:


> Since cartridge slot have advanced access to motherboard, iso loader by a possible flashcard perhaps is more close to be created? Hope so...


Not by cartridge slot, but by VCD card slot !


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## Vappy (Jul 12, 2016)

WooHyun said:


> So does this help anything in emulator development?


He says in the video that his research helped accurate emulation quite a bit, due to there being a bunch of unknowns that they had to estimate.


almmiron said:


> Since cartridge slot have advanced access to motherboard, iso loader by a possible flashcard perhaps is more close to be created? Hope so...


That's basically what he has already, through the VCD slot. Probably a few board revisions and software tweaks away from anything resembling a marketable product though. Maybe check back in a year or so, if he keeps working at it, should be much closer to a release then, if not before.


CeeDee said:


> Saturn: 20 years for crack. Unique DRM.
> Dreamcast: Cracked instantly. Literally no DRM whatsoever.
> 
> ...Well then!


The Dreamcast DID have protection, it was just very easily bypassed.
http://wololo.net/2012/11/12/sega-dreamcast-how-its-security-works-and-how-it-was-hacked/ This sums it up pretty well.


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## Lumstar (Jul 12, 2016)

CeeDee said:


> Saturn: 20 years for crack. Unique DRM.
> Dreamcast: Cracked instantly. Literally no DRM whatsoever.
> 
> ...Well then!



What makes Dreamcast interesting is that only applies to copies. You must modify the console to automatically run a legit imported GD-ROM in the same manner. (no boot disc, swap trick, or anything)


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

What are you guys on about? The Saturn's AP protection was broken years ago, we just lacked a writer capable of reproducing the non-digital protection strip (Rings of Saturn, one of which is wobbly data while the other is literally a logo burned into the surface) on the disc. The modchips aren't "rare" and they're comparatively simple to replicate, the ring data is available, the mechanism is well-known and relatively understood, homebrew is plentiful and even without a hardware solution you could still disc swap using any original Saturn disc to bypass checks - the AP is a complete non-issue in 99% of the games, the latter 1% being games with custom AP and random ToC/loading checks in-gameplay, and even those can be mitigated. The one and only benefit here is ODDE loading, which is indeed an amazing feat as lasers all die eventually and mechanical/optical drives should be replaced as soon as possible, but to say that it's a groundbreaking development is a bit of a stretch.


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## ih8ih8sn0w (Jul 12, 2016)

iAqua said:


> Am I the onlyone who has never geard of this console?


This wasn't a console that was well produced/known about/did well with sales afaik. I probably would be asking the same thing if I didn't have one just laying around...


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## Deleted User (Jul 12, 2016)

Woah, this is pretty groundbreaking. This will totally help us homebrew consoles 20 years from now.

w/e


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

VinLark said:


> Woah, this is pretty groundbreaking. This will totally help us homebrew consoles 20 years from now.
> 
> w/e


Philistine. The Saturn's great, it could easily run laps around its competition in many aspects and its design was far ahead of its time. It's fascinating to this day and the way consoles are designed today, with multi-cpu, multi-gpu setups, is not unlike the Saturn's design. My issue with this breakthrough isn't so much that it's useless, it's the fact that it wasn't made earlier because nobody cared due to having plenty of alternatives. Making an ODDE would've required decapping the SH2 processor where the disc controller was to see what's cooking in the interface, and with cheap modchips and even cheaper swap tricks nobody wanted to go the extra mile.


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## TVL (Jul 12, 2016)

Foxi4 said:


> What are you guys on about? The Saturn's AP protection was broken years ago, we just lacked a writer capable of reproducing the non-digital protection strip (Rings of Saturn, one of which is wobbly data while the other is literally a logo burned into the surface) on the disc. The modchips aren't "rare" and they're comparatively simple to replicate, the ring data is available, the mechanism is well-known and relatively understood, homebrew is plentiful and even without a hardware solution you could still disc swap using any original Saturn disc to bypass checks - the AP is a complete non-issue in 99% of the games, the latter 1% being games with custom AP and random ToC/loading checks in-gameplay, and even those can be mitigated. The one and only benefit here is ODDE loading, which is indeed an amazing feat as lasers all die eventually and mechanical/optical drives should be replaced as soon as possible, but to say that it's a groundbreaking development is a bit of a stretch.



An ODDE for the Saturn has been in existence for quite some time.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

TVL said:


> An ODDE for the Saturn has been in existence for quite some time.


Back when I was dicking around with my Model 1 they did not and it's been at least 2-3 years since I looked into them, but you're right - they're called Rhea and Phoebe (depending on the pin count) and yes, they have been around since 2015, so nothing new is being created here.


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## retrofan_k (Jul 12, 2016)

Nice achievement and props to the guy who cracked it.  However, since owning a Rhea and Phoebe ODE, I don't see much use of this now using stock drives.


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## cearp (Jul 12, 2016)

endoverend said:


> twenty long years of suffering


do you know what suffering is? lol...  some people... exaggerating is not the same as reporting.


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## StriderVM (Jul 12, 2016)

CeeDee said:


> Saturn: 20 years for crack. Unique DRM.
> Dreamcast: Cracked instantly. Literally no DRM whatsoever.
> 
> ...Well then!



I thought that was Dreamcast's protection has been bypassed and not cracked? Same case with the PS1?


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

StriderVM said:


> I thought that was Dreamcast's protection has been bypassed and not cracked? Same case with the PS1?


It was bypassed by using a different kind of medium (mil-CD rather than GD-ROM), cracking it would have no benefit as 1GB CD-R's don't exist, so a GD-ROM can't be "copied". We know what we know about the DC because of the Katana SDK and machines that float around.


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## Bladexdsl (Jul 12, 2016)

only 20 years too late


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## leon315 (Jul 12, 2016)

i can finally watch my 1080p bluray mkv on my sega saturn cd XD


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

Upon watching the interview I can see what the hubbub is about - decoding the CD block is a big deal and as I expected, it required fiddling with the CPU. It's interesting that he managed to make it spew the ROM out without decapping it, well done. This will help out emulators more so than hardware users though, seeing that other ODDE's already exist. Having a plug & play solution is pretty sweet though - I can't wait to shove this into my currently unused VCD slot.


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## sarkwalvein (Jul 12, 2016)

iAqua said:


> Am I the onlyone who has never geard of this console?


Segata Sanshiro for the sake of God!


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

Not having heard of the Saturn is criminal - I love that obsolete little thing. Here ya go, lads - one of my older pieces if you're interested:

https://gbatemp.net/threads/bfwwiwa-issue-1-sega-saturn.361538/


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## chartube12 (Jul 12, 2016)

The Sega Saturn was more powerful then Playstation. It's version of the games it had, featured better graphics and faster load times. The system suffered from being a pain in the ass to program for at the time however, leaving it's full potential unrealized. Ironically the same problem the playstation 3 would eventually have, years later. Without ease of programming, powerful amount of resources are useless.


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## GuyInDogSuit (Jul 12, 2016)

YASSS!! Finally! I miss owning a modded Saturn, but to be honest, I only played a few games, and I kept hoping Sega would continue releasing PC versions of their games on Steam, but so far only Master System and Genesis games for the most part have made it to the west. I don't see why they did a PC release of Panzer Dragoon, but nothing of the sort for the rest of the series.


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## kumikochan (Jul 12, 2016)

Lol i got a Phoebe so don't see the point of this.


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## DinohScene (Jul 12, 2016)

I thought about getting a Saturn.
It's sweet news but ground breaking, not really.


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## Xuman (Jul 12, 2016)

I was one of those unfortunate to have experienced the saturn (brother never let me play it) and ive been planning on getting one but heard about the disc issues and that halted me.

The fact that this guy is working on a plug n play solution makes me very excited!


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## peroxidex (Jul 12, 2016)

CeeDee said:


> Saturn: 20 years for crack. Unique DRM.
> Dreamcast: Cracked instantly. Literally no DRM whatsoever.
> 
> ...Well then!



If you read about it now or showed up late to the party, you may think that.

It was nearly two years after the JP release and in reality, we have the Action Replay CDX demo from Datel to thank for starting it by essentially releasing a MIL-CD. I'm also not sure how boot CDs and modified ISO constitutes no DRM either, but anyway.


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## TeamScriptKiddies (Jul 12, 2016)

The DRM has been broken on the Sega Saturn in many different forms for years now. Still pretty neat for him to make a new ODDE nevertheless


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

It's not so much that the DRM was broken, rather that we finally have the complete image of the program that's responsible for the CD drive and AP, which admittedly we didn't have before. We knew more or less how it worked and found ways to trick or bypass it, but now we actually have the ROM, which helps a bunch. The DRM wasn't really "broken". There's no backdoor there, just an exploit - we still can't burn that ring and squiggle and likely we never will be able to actually break the protection, but just knowing the full CD protocol is a great help in emulation and future ODDE development.


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## TeamScriptKiddies (Jul 12, 2016)

Foxi4 said:


> It's not so much that the DRM was broken, rather that we finally have the complete image of the program that's responsible for the CD drive and AP, which admittedly we didn't have before. We knew more or less how it worked and found ways to trick or bypass it, but now we actually have the ROM, which helps a bunch. The DRM wasn't really "broken". There's no backdoor there, just an exploit - we still can't burn that ring and squiggle and likely we never will be able to actually break the protection, but just knowing the full CD protocol is a great help in emulation and future ODDE development.



I was under the impression this was dumped eons ago and that's how the modchips worked. They were able to dump all the necessary info (the ROM) so they could get the code needed to inject on the fly for booting copies/homebrew etc. Now I'm talking about the actually modchips, not the swap trick and pseudosaturn those operate completely differently.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

TeamScriptKiddies said:


> I was under the impression this was dumped eons ago and that's how the modchips worked. They were able to dump all the necessary info (the ROM) so they could get the code needed to inject on the fly for booting copies/homebrew etc. Now I'm talking about the actually modchips, not the swap trick and pseudosaturn those operate completely differently.


The modchip only sends ring data when the drive firmware requests it, the ROM hidden in the CPU was not dumped until now despite many attempts and the emulation of the drive was purely theoretical, based on hardware I/O sniffing and scarce documentation.


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## RemixDeluxe (Jul 12, 2016)

Would this be better than Rhea and Phoebe since you could run backups and still have a free CD drive and RAM slot for games and accessories?

Assuming this ever becomes publicly sold.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

RemixDeluxe said:


> Would this be better than Rhea and Phoebe since you could run backups and still have a free CD drive and RAM slot for games and accessories?
> 
> Assuming this ever becomes publicly sold.


Yes, because it's integrated into the CD drive firmware and only re-routes data streams rather than blindly emulating it. That said, for the end-user the only difference is the installation which is just more convenient here.


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## RemixDeluxe (Jul 12, 2016)

I hope he will continue with the Sega CD and Dreamcast after this is complete.

You can burn CDs for the Sega CD but as far as I'm aware there is no discless solution and I was hoping there would be an everdrive that could play the Sega Genesis and all its add-ons.

I know the guy that made Rhea has something for Dreamcast. How is that?


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## kingraa777 (Jul 12, 2016)

i have a racket boy modchip in my saturn fully working still but doesnt play well with burning rangers :/
awsum news however


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## DaFixer (Jul 12, 2016)

Great news!
Maybe I to buy a Saturn becase emulation is a bit buggy.


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## RemixDeluxe (Jul 12, 2016)

DaFixer said:


> Great news!
> Maybe I to buy a Saturn becase emulation is a bit buggy.


I think Sega Saturn's emulation is the worst for any system I've ever seen. All the 5th generation consoles in particular were difficult.


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## Pluupy (Jul 12, 2016)

Maybe he should've waited 200 years so this accomplishment would actually be impressive, like an archaeological discovery. Make a leather notebook, use a heavy ink pen, and write in cursive his findings.


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## DaFixer (Jul 12, 2016)

RemixDeluxe said:


> I think Sega Saturn's emulation is the worst for any system I've ever seen. All the 5th generation consoles in particular were difficult.



That becase the Saturn is a nightmare to make games for, worse then the PS3.
It uses a dual cpu architecture and eight co processors....
And to make worse both CPU's uses the same data bus, so programing that all run on the same time was a real pain in the *ss.

I think if it was easy to make games for the saturn,then we really have seen the power of saturn.
Only Panzer Dragoon Saga and the Shenmue proto demo real shows what the saturn can do.


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## Meteor7 (Jul 12, 2016)

All of my excitement. Hugely impressive feat of reverse-engineering aside, I would be jazzed if I can eventually buy a card, slot it into my old, dusty Saturn, and have access to backups and homebrew on my Saturn.


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## XiTaU (Jul 12, 2016)

Currently use Pseudo Saturn but this would be much nicer if he ever releases the board just plug in a usb full of games instead of changing cd's and hoping your drive doesnt die.


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## GuyInDogSuit (Jul 12, 2016)

RemixDeluxe said:


> Would this be better than Rhea and Phoebe since you could run backups and still have a free CD drive and RAM slot for games and accessories?
> 
> Assuming this ever becomes publicly sold.



What are those?



kingraa777 said:


> i have a racket boy modchip in my saturn fully working still but doesnt play well with burning rangers :/
> awsum news however



I used to have one, too. Model 1 Saturn for the win. All my games worked on it, even Burning Rangers. Must have been your rip.



RemixDeluxe said:


> I think Sega Saturn's emulation is the worst for any system I've ever seen. All the 5th generation consoles in particular were difficult.



Yes, it is, I agree. Most games would not even boot.


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## kingraa777 (Jul 12, 2016)

GuyInDogSuit said:


> What are those?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it has problems in the fmvs they dont want to play the rip is fine i tried with an emulator the same iso
???


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## civickm (Jul 12, 2016)

Sweet nice work!


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## hollowtip (Jul 12, 2016)

Foxi4 said:


> What are you guys on about? The Saturn's AP protection was broken years ago, we just lacked a writer capable of reproducing the non-digital protection strip (Rings of Saturn, one of which is wobbly data while the other is literally a logo burned into the surface) on the disc. The modchips aren't "rare" and they're comparatively simple to replicate, the ring data is available, the mechanism is well-known and relatively understood, homebrew is plentiful and even without a hardware solution you could still disc swap using any original Saturn disc to bypass checks - the AP is a complete non-issue in 99% of the games, the latter 1% being games with custom AP and random ToC/loading checks in-gameplay, and even those can be mitigated. The one and only benefit here is ODDE loading, which is indeed an amazing feat as lasers all die eventually and mechanical/optical drives should be replaced as soon as possible, but to say that it's a groundbreaking development is a bit of a stretch.



That's probably why it took twenty years, not because it was really difficult. Not a lot of people were interested in cracking DRM as functional workarounds were already available.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2016)

hollowtip said:


> That's probably why it took twenty years, not because it was really difficult. Not a lot of people were interested in cracking DRM as functional workarounds were already available.


Few attempts were made, but as mentioned in the video, reading the ROM, even with a microscope, was problematic and ultimately unsuccessful. That, coupled with lack of interest and the fact that the console was an underdog to begin with all contributed to a lack of meaningful development and a mostly guesswork-based approach. The same applies to the original Xbox - most of its top titles were made available on PC so we *still* don't have a decent emulator or a complete instruction set of the custom NV2.5 GPU. That, and the documentation for both systems is extremely scarce.


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## robertman2 (Jul 12, 2016)

Foxi4 said:


> Few attempts were made, but as mentioned in the video, reading the ROM, even with a microscope, was problematic and ultimately unsuccessful. That, coupled with lack of interest and the fact that the console was an underdog to begin with all contributed to a lack of meaningful development and a mostly guesswork-based approach. The same applies to the original Xbox - most of its top titles were made available on PC so we *still* don't have a decent emulator or a complete instruction set of the custom NV2.5 GPU. That, and the documentation for both systems is extremely scarce.


Too bad the port of Halo 2 sucks


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## Kurt91 (Jul 13, 2016)

I'm a little curious about something. I keep reading that all of the different developers who made games for the Saturn found it too difficult to learn how to use both processors efficiently and limited themselves to only using one, and it was too difficult to deal with the 4-sided polygons so they "cheated" them into 3-sided polygons even though the extra side was supposed to reduce the number of polygons needed to make a model. I also read that theoretically, the Saturn was supposed to be a more powerful system than the N64 and PlayStation. Were there any games that used the Saturn to it's full potential, and showed off the absolute upper limits of what the system could do?

By the way, off-topic, but I also remember something about there being code to do things much better for the N64 as well, that was declared off-limits by Nintendo. Is there anything that shows off what that system could have done as well, if the developers had permission to go balls-to-the-walls with the system? (But anyways, Saturn topic, so feel free to ignore this second question.)


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## robertman2 (Jul 13, 2016)

Kurt91 said:


> I'm a little curious about something. I keep reading that all of the different developers who made games for the Saturn found it too difficult to learn how to use both processors efficiently and limited themselves to only using one, and it was too difficult to deal with the 4-sided polygons so they "cheated" them into 3-sided polygons even though the extra side was supposed to reduce the number of polygons needed to make a model. I also read that theoretically, the Saturn was supposed to be a more powerful system than the N64 and PlayStation. Were there any games that used the Saturn to it's full potential, and showed off the absolute upper limits of what the system could do?
> 
> By the way, off-topic, but I also remember something about there being code to do things much better for the N64 as well, that was declared off-limits by Nintendo. Is there anything that shows off what that system could have done as well, if the developers had permission to go balls-to-the-walls with the system? (But anyways, Saturn topic, so feel free to ignore this second question.)


Panzer Dragoon Saga and the Shenmue prototypes for the Saturn, and Conker for the N64, I believe


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## GuyInDogSuit (Jul 13, 2016)

<snip>



Kurt91 said:


> I'm a little curious about something. I keep reading that all of the different developers who made games for the Saturn found it too difficult to learn how to use both processors efficiently and limited themselves to only using one, and it was too difficult to deal with the 4-sided polygons so they "cheated" them into 3-sided polygons even though the extra side was supposed to reduce the number of polygons needed to make a model. I also read that theoretically, the Saturn was supposed to be a more powerful system than the N64 and PlayStation. Were there any games that used the Saturn to it's full potential, and showed off the absolute upper limits of what the system could do?
> 
> By the way, off-topic, but I also remember something about there being code to do things much better for the N64 as well, that was declared off-limits by Nintendo. Is there anything that shows off what that system could have done as well, if the developers had permission to go balls-to-the-walls with the system? (But anyways, Saturn topic, so feel free to ignore this second question.)



The Panzer Dragoon series, specifically Saga/Azel. The Saturn was also a better 2D system than the Playstation, though it could NOT do transparencies, so some games, for example, Akumajo Dracula X:  Gekka no Yasoukyoku (Japanese Symphony of the Night), had issues with transparencies and slowdowns, making the game rather inferior to its PS1 counterpart, despite the additions.


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## the_randomizer (Jul 13, 2016)

Kurt91 said:


> I'm a little curious about something. I keep reading that all of the different developers who made games for the Saturn found it too difficult to learn how to use both processors efficiently and limited themselves to only using one, and it was too difficult to deal with the 4-sided polygons so they "cheated" them into 3-sided polygons even though the extra side was supposed to reduce the number of polygons needed to make a model. I also read that theoretically, the Saturn was supposed to be a more powerful system than the N64 and PlayStation. Were there any games that used the Saturn to it's full potential, and showed off the absolute upper limits of what the system could do?
> 
> By the way, off-topic, but I also remember something about there being code to do things much better for the N64 as well, that was declared off-limits by Nintendo. Is there anything that shows off what that system could have done as well, if the developers had permission to go balls-to-the-walls with the system? (But anyways, Saturn topic, so feel free to ignore this second question.)



Yeah,. there were two modes, Turbo3D and Fast3D microcode, one (Fast3D) had an output of 100,000 triangles/sec and the other(Turbo3D)  could go as high as 300-400,000/second, but Nintendo discouraged its used due to graphical degradation. However, companies like Boss Game Studios, Factor 5, Rare all wrote custom microcode to do insane things. World Racing Championship pushed the limits of the N64 with polygons that had a higher count than the average PSX game, supposedly. Factor 5 did some insane things with the N64 hardware as well.

Getting back to the Saturn, many developers had a helluva time because the hardware was a royal PITA to develop for, the dual processors added to that, and the fact the polygons used quads and not triangles; a very weird design choice.


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## AyanamiRei0 (Jul 13, 2016)

endoverend said:


> View attachment 55902​After twenty long years of suffering caused by the Sega Saturn's infamous hardware-based DRM, James Laird-Wah, a computer engineer known as "Dr Abrasive", has finally cracked the twenty year-old console. This DRM was so unique due to its mechanic that required a special groove to be present in all its CDs, requiring a rare modchip for any kind of homebrew. This solution involves a USB emulation of the disc drive.
> 
> This is not a public release as of yet, but this represents major progress for the Saturn homebrew community as hardware testing will now be much more accessible. Post your thoughts below!
> 
> ...




This was pretty interesting to say the least.


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## Schizoanalysis (Jul 13, 2016)

I have about 6 of these "rare" modchips.

Guess I'm lucky..


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## raulpica (Jul 13, 2016)

Jeez, I can understand Haider Raza being a n00b/fail-troll/whatever, but what about you older members steering this thread off-topic THAT much? You should've known better


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## Foxi4 (Jul 13, 2016)

raulpica said:


> Jeez, I can understand Haider Raza being a n00b/fail-troll/whatever, but what about you older members steering this thread off-topic THAT much? You should've known better


It was related by extension - we're essentially talking about three absolute losers when it comes to console wars. The Saturn fell on its face everywhere except Japan, much like the Vita and the Wii U did, although with Wii U it's the North American audience that embraced it. You're right though, we've gone too far off track.


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## Dr Eggman (Jul 14, 2016)

I'm not sure why all the negativity : regardless, this is a breakthrough in the sense that it is using the VCD card slot instead of disk drive emulation or cartridge motherboard access. 

I don't think it's adequate to say "well we have Rhea" when it's prohibitively expensive and small batch produced. I couldn't get one, and paying 165€ for that? I'm sorry,  I could buy like 3-4 Saturn's, chip them,  and burn disks until their lasers die. In addition,  you lose the functionality of being able to play disks (my big problem with it and GDEMU)

I welcome this progress , especially considering how we never saw any progress from the "saroo" cartridge. Though it was open sourced. Maybe someone will be willing to take on the torch and get pcb and software working.


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## The Catboy (Jul 14, 2016)

I am actually kind of impressed that it took this long to actually hack. Compared to the Dreamcast, which was just pathetic.


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## robertman2 (Jul 14, 2016)

How much would a Saturn cost? I kinda want one


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## cearp (Jul 14, 2016)

robertman2 said:


> How much would a Saturn cost? I kinda want one


http://www.ebay.com/sch/Video-Game-Consoles/139971/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=sega+saturn


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## Zoel (Jul 14, 2016)

I still have my Saturn and Genesis hooked up. I was gonna get Phoebe/Rhea, but a plug and play solution is much more simple for me.

Oh and with wireless controllers too.


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## kumikochan (Jul 14, 2016)

Zoel said:


> I still have my Saturn and Genesis hooked up. I was gonna get Phoebe/Rhea, but a plug and play solution is much more simple for me.
> 
> Oh and with wireless controllers too.



The phoebe/rhea is actually a plug and play solution. You take the sd card in, you take it out, you take it in, you take it out. '' Plug and play ''


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## codezer0 (Jul 14, 2016)

Always did want a Saturn, even back then; however, even early on, I ended up recognizing the significant barrier to entry, in that I would have needed some extra hardware just to be able to play all the different region games that we never got here in the States. Even with the 5-in-1 cartridge to put in the system, there was still the apparent need for a modchip for those games that came, for example, with their own game-specific ROM cart. Or so that you could use a native Backup Memory cart with an out-of-region game.

The workaround through the VCD slot like they talked about in the video there is absolutely out of left field... and I rather love it for the fact that the man did some clever thinking to get around the CD-ROM manager chip. If he is able to get these things mass produced, I would certainly not mind picking one up and a Saturn for it, so I could finally play those games that I've long been missing out.

Still, with as apparently over-engineered as the Saturn's AP protection was, it's amazing how quickly the Dreamcast was comparatively "defeated"/bypassed.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 14, 2016)

codezer0 said:


> Always did want a Saturn, even back then; however, even early on, I ended up recognizing the significant barrier to entry, in that I would have needed some extra hardware just to be able to play all the different region games that we never got here in the States. Even with the 5-in-1 cartridge to put in the system, there was still the apparent need for a modchip for those games that came, for example, with their own game-specific ROM cart. Or so that you could use a native Backup Memory cart with an out-of-region game.
> 
> The workaround through the VCD slot like they talked about in the video there is absolutely out of left field... and I rather love it for the fact that the man did some clever thinking to get around the CD-ROM manager chip. If he is able to get these things mass produced, I would certainly not mind picking one up and a Saturn for it, so I could finally play those games that I've long been missing out.
> 
> Still, with as apparently over-engineered as the Saturn's AP protection was, it's amazing how quickly the Dreamcast was comparatively "defeated"/bypassed.


A 5-in-1 is all you really need, it has built-in RAM, and even without it out-of-region games can be ripped using any drive since there's no special encryption - at that point all you have to do is change the region and burn the disc. I found the Saturn very collector-friendly - games that require extra RAM are few and far between. Compared to the Genesis which sometimes required the 32X, the Sega CD or both to run certain games the cost of entry is minimal.


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## codezer0 (Jul 14, 2016)

Foxi4 said:


> A 5-in-1 is all you really need, it has built-in RAM, and even without it out-of-region games can be ripped using any drive since there's no special encryption - at that point all you have to do is change the region and burn the disc. I found the Saturn very collector-friendly - games that require extra RAM are few and far between.


What about for those that came with a companion ROM cart? I know there weren't many, but I would want to know what I could do in that regard.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 14, 2016)

codezer0 said:


> What about for those that came with a companion ROM cart? I know there weren't many, but I would want to know what I could do in that regard.


There are only two games that use them - Ultraman and King of Fighters '95 and its two re-releases, '95+'96 and Best Collection, so four titles altogether. The respective carts come with the original discs and you can change the region of the discs no problem using Saturn Region Changer, a blank CD-R and take advantage of the swap trick. Chances are you'll never play any of those though, so it's a non-issue. Personally I think you're not even missing much without a 5-in-1, but it's convenient for the extra save space.


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## Hop2089 (Jul 14, 2016)

I definitely want that flashcart, it'll save me thousands as there are games I want to play on the Saturn but they are cost prohibitive and then I want
to not worry about the game I do own getting damaged, I especially don't want any of the Cotton games being damaged as they are the same copies I owned near the end of the console's life.


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## codezer0 (Jul 14, 2016)

Foxi4 said:


> There are only two games that use them - Ultraman and King of Fighters '95 and its two re-releases, '95+'96 and Best Collection, so four titles altogether. The respective carts come with the original discs and you can change the region of the discs no problem using Saturn Region Changer, a blank CD-R and take advantage of the swap trick. Chances are you'll never play any of those though, so it's a non-issue. Personally I think you're not even missing much without a 5-in-1, but it's convenient for the extra save space.


There was also _In the Hunt_, but yea. I just wanted to know what to do if I say, came across them for cheap or something.


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## XiTaU (Jul 14, 2016)

codezer0 said:


> There was also _In the Hunt_, but yea. I just wanted to know what to do if I say, came across them for cheap or something.



In the hunt doesnt need a rom cart to play.


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## KingpinSlim (Jul 15, 2016)

The title of this article is highly misleading, as is the source material.

The DRM was circumvented a long, long time ago.
Back before most of GBAtemps current preschool userbase was even born.


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## Dr.Hacknik (Jul 15, 2016)

Lumstar said:


> What makes Dreamcast interesting is that only applies to copies. You must modify the console to automatically run a legit imported GD-ROM in the same manner. (no boot disc, swap trick, or anything)


What i really like about the Dreamcast was that it Supported Windows CE based Software, allowing Dev's to make games easily, and even port PC titles. Without modifying too much of the Source code. --Long live the Dreamcast!


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## ishygdaft (Jul 15, 2016)

I have a Saturn, held on to it for exactly this reason 
Good work!


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## shadow1w2 (Jul 16, 2016)

Looking forward to seeing this as a product.
I was once going to go with a modchip but never got around to trying to purchase one.
Though now my Saturn CD drive stopped reading games so this may be my solution for playing authentic saturn games again.
More excited to see how this effects emulators though as I'd love to see many of those Saturn games get a few enhancements and be playable in other ways.


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## SS4 (Jul 16, 2016)

lol i'm still using the swap trick and double swap trick on mine lol
Only have one original game and i opened the console to tape the part that detect when the lid is open


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## smf (Jul 17, 2016)

Dr.Hacknik said:


> What i really like about the Dreamcast was that it Supported Windows CE based Software, allowing Dev's to make games easily, and even port PC titles. Without modifying too much of the Source code. --Long live the Dreamcast!



It wasn't particularly easier to write games for Windows CE & getting Windows software to run on Windows CE is not particularly easy either. The games written for the dreamcast SDK always seemed to perform better (this is probably the reason that Sega dropped the plan for just having Windows CE).

I saw a Saturn version of the PS1 SDK, which had been used for porting games from one console to the other. It's no real different to that.

The Dreamcast is the only Sega console that I quite like, but Windows CE was not good for the Dreamcast. It also was not good for Sega, because it gave Microsoft a foot in the door. The xbox then pushed Sega out of the hardware market.


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## robertman2 (Jul 18, 2016)

smf said:


> It wasn't particularly easier to write games for Windows CE & getting Windows software to run on Windows CE is not particularly easy either. The games written for the dreamcast SDK always seemed to perform better (this is probably the reason that Sega dropped the plan for just having Windows CE).
> 
> I saw a Saturn version of the PS1 SDK, which had been used for porting games from one console to the other. It's no real different to that.
> 
> The Dreamcast is the only Sega console that I quite like, but Windows CE was not good for the Dreamcast. It also was not good for Sega, because it gave Microsoft a foot in the door. The xbox then pushed Sega out of the hardware market.


No, Sega was pushed out by the PS2, and shooting themselves in the foot with things like the 32X and the horribly botched Saturn US launch


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## pustal (Jul 20, 2016)

iAqua said:


> Am I the only one who has never heard of this console?





ih8ih8sn0w said:


> This wasn't a console that was well produced/known about/did well with sales afaik. I probably would be asking the same thing if I didn't have one just laying around...



I'm surprised. Here in Portugal and next door in Spain at least sold quite well. Many of my friends had one and I wanted one badly. After nagging my parents for a while, they got my a Playstation for my birthday. I had mixed feelings towards it but ended up being a better purchase on the long run.

I ended up buying one, years later on Ebay, but out of my ignorance made a huge mistake. There are two models of the console, the earlier one, without DRM and model 2, with that took 20 years to crack. Guess witch one I bought...

Among the notable games are Nights Into Dreams, Panzer Dragoon saga (including Saga that they lost the source code -.-'), Sega Rally Championship, Virtua Fighter 2 or Grandia (later ported to the Playstation)


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## smf (Jul 21, 2016)

pustal said:


> There are two models of the console, the earlier one, without DRM and model 2, with that took 20 years to crack. Guess witch one I bought...



All Saturns had copy protection. None of them had DRM. All of them can be modded to bypass the copy protection for the last 2 decades http://www.racketboy.com/saturn-modchip/installation.htm

model 2 is the easier to mod.

A mod chip fools the Saturn into thinking it's an original disc, this new method means the Saturn doesn't check that it's an original disc. Essentially it's a solderless mod.


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## Johnny2071 (Feb 25, 2017)

Does this mean we can start seeing development of a Sega Saturn emulator on the Wii U?


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