# BREXIT [Poll] vote!



## Phantom64 (May 27, 2016)

Should the UK leave the EU? Vote yes or no! Feel free to choose whatever you want!

BREXIT results:
Leave 51.9%
Remain 48.1%

The aftermath here! 
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215


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## Phantom64 (May 27, 2016)

i'll bump this thread every 5 votes- 
(i think this is one of my rare serious thread)


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## hobbledehoy899 (May 27, 2016)

god save the queen


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## Feeling it! (May 27, 2016)

Phantom64 said:


> i'll bump this thread every 5 votes-because getting banned sounds amazing.


I think the world should leave the UN.


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## Pleng (May 28, 2016)

Phantom64 said:


> (i think this is one of my rare serious thread)



Probably should have posted it in 'General Off Topic', then!


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## FAST6191 (May 28, 2016)

hobbledehoy899 said:


> god save the queen


The fascist regime?


I don't place any value in word association as a psychological test for anything other than being a good indicator that someone is not braindead if they make a meaningful response, that said "the fascist regime" would be mine if someone says that.

For a more serious reply then I will not be voting, mainly as I have never bothered before and see no point in starting now. If I had to think about it then nobody has mad a convincing argument that there is a sensible exit plan in place and "it'll be all right on the night" is not a thing I can get behind. I could see how it might be better for some, the question is how much and what about whether it is better for Europe (I like Europe, some good people there)? I could also see how it could be worse and much like I have never seen taxes go down I have also never seen charitable/public works/funding sources reorganise to anything other than making the people holding the pot more money. Everybody involved also seems to have taken a page from the playbook of the septics as well as we have simplistic vote blah on blah, rhetoric up the arse, fallacies too (the whole Brussels sets our laws stuff irritates immensely) and no sensible debates or anything. I thought it was bad when the political parties discovered the internet and also found they could skirt many restrictions placed on more traditional forms of media. I don't imagine an exit from Europe would be apocalyptic and I don't see staying as a bad thing either. To that end in the absence of a compelling reason to leave I guess that would determine what I voted for, if I voted.

Edit. Might as well stick it in GOT.


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## hobbledehoy899 (May 28, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> The fascist regime?


"The uploader has not made this video available in your country."


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## Feeling it! (May 28, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> The fascist regime?
> 
> 
> I don't place any value in word association as a psychological test for anything other than being a good indicator that someone is not braindead if they make a meaningful response, that said "the fascist regime" would be mine if someone says that.
> ...



Sex pistols? that is my favourite stand in jojo part5.


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## Frederica Bernkastel (May 28, 2016)

The whole Brexit debate is overladen with false information, and it's proven a great indicator of how gullible some people are as almost nobody I've met can back up their reasoning.

So many assumptions are made in the arguments as to why we should consider leaving, such as for example the amount we get back from our investment into the EU, or that by leaving we'll be able to continue trading without having to sign a trade agreement which would mandate free movement of people (y'know, the thing that UKIP touted as one of the biggest problems of being in the EU?).  Speaking of trade, that other little fact so many people like to throw around about us being unable to trade with countries outside of the EU right now?  Well, turns out that most of those have either signed, or are in the process of negotiating, trade deals with the EU.

Oh, but why are those deals taking so long?  Politics, and that's the same complicated bullshit we'd have to go through in order to set up those deals ourselves.  Only at significantly greater cost to us, as suddenly we've gotta pay the salaries of all these people tied up in negotiations.  Is it worth it?  Is there a net gain?

With any luck our country hasn't been completely brainwashed yet, so hopefully history will repeat itself.


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## KSP (May 28, 2016)

I'm not from UK, but isn't the whole EU thing just a little too gullible to really be sustainable?

Its like asking USA and Canada to share the same border and currency as Bangladesh. The various countries in the EU are just too wildly different in their level of development. I like going to Europe and using the same money across the board, but even I can sense that the union is a naive notion.


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## AyanamiRei0 (May 28, 2016)

I haven't mainly because i couldn't give a damn at the end the general public doesn't get to decide it's the people in parliament that gets to decide whats "best" for this country even if we voted well that's what i personally think


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## FAST6191 (May 28, 2016)

Says a person from the united states? That said I do usually find reason to laugh when someone blathers on about states rights, that or immediately assume it is code like "I'm not racist but".


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## KSP (May 28, 2016)

I admit I know jack squat about Europe, other than going there on vacation from time to time.

Its nice to be able to watch from the sidelines on how all this is gonna turn out.


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## Frederica Bernkastel (May 28, 2016)

AyanamiRei1 said:


> I haven't mainly because i couldn't give a damn at the end the general public doesn't get to decide it's the people in parliament that gets to decide whats "best" for this country even if we voted well that's what i personally think


Er, no, you're fully entitled to have opinions and thoughts about what happens to the UK.  People sitting in parliament are chosen by you to represent them, and that's all - You should very much care about the general public choosing what goes on, because that's exactly why we still have elections, including this one.



KSP said:


> I'm not from UK, but isn't the whole EU thing just a little too gullible to really be sustainable?.


I don't really know where to start ... the EU is far more than just relaxed borders, and significantly less than an entire country.


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## Phantom64 (May 29, 2016)

Make Europe Great Again
Anyway, the EU needs to be reformed and being something near the citiziens. Not something far from the citiziens, this will only increase nationalism and populism.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

i'd make a long discussion about the EU but it's 1:30 and i'm sleepy as ****


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## natemontage (May 29, 2016)

If the UK leaves, good luck with all those new trade agreements. I'm sure the EU nations will be more than happy to put you ahead of all the other countries that are part of the EU.


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## pwsincd (May 29, 2016)




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## rasputin (May 29, 2016)

LOL, thinking your vote counts!!


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## RevPokemon (May 30, 2016)

Welp most brexit supporters are ringwinged nuts soO.


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## VinsCool (May 30, 2016)

I'm curious. Would this change anything to the world situation?


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## Phantom64 (May 30, 2016)

VinsCool said:


> I'm curious. Would this change anything to the world situation?


Yes, many things.


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## FAST6191 (May 30, 2016)

VinsCool said:


> I'm curious. Would this change anything to the world situation?


Even without the butterfly effect then yeah it would probably send out some decent ripples, though it would not be as world changing as Russia and China teaming up or something.
If you have not seen the following or do not otherwise know it then do so



It would however change depending upon what happened next.
Three scenarios. In no case do I expect it to become a military dictatorship or anything truly silly. The UK would likely still be a member of the UN and Nato and all sorts of other agreements/groups like that, I am not sure what might change there (the UK is a far bigger player in some of those than the population and military potency might suggest and in some cases it is so as a kind of EU proxy but not really). No country is likely to go bankrupt instantly because of it and nobody is likely to see a massive boon either.

The UK become a somewhat isolationist type country a la Russia of 10 years ago (or indeed Russia prior to this latest round of nonsense), whether by choice or by circumstance/"punishment" I do not know. You then need visas (or maybe visa waiver is continued), immigration is a pain and emigration is the same as people coming from places that aren't white face today (maybe think those moving to the US -- family, money or serious education* in areas somewhere else wants). Trade agreements exist but nowhere near as free and easy as they are today, possibly as a certain penalty for leaving from various other places (France and the US already threatened such things, Germany on the other hand said it would be nice, possibly because it sells a lot of cars to the UK market). Seemingly a wet dream for certain political parties and would be a nightmare for others.

The UK leaves the EU but stays within the EEC/EEA/other things that could technically count as Europe (which are all separate, if they technically still exist). Not sure what I want to point to as a historical example, mainly as the choices for similar models are far smaller or were heading towards EU membership anyway. The extent of this is a bit of sliding scale but who knows. I think this is what most of those campaigning to leave hope will happen but seemingly have not got in place.

It stays, business as usual. Some might remember, most would forget fairly quickly and probably even if the results are tight.

*it is worth remembering that emigration is a major thing for people graduating from UK universities -- science, engineering, maths, medicine, IT and such all see lots of people leave after things have finished or once they have a bit of experience. The EU is a significant component of that. Said same fields also often retire to various places in Europe where I am told a lot of places then get a significant income. If it was then as much of a ball ache as moving to the US is it might change what people go in for as the UK would not likely be able to sustain as many graduates as it makes in the lifestyle to which they wish to become accustomed (IT is rapidly falling and science and engineering in the UK is not a lucrative field for the amount of time you need to sink into it to be able to do it).

Some have pondered what might happen to the other non England countries in the UK. The results of the last election are that Scotland is largely run by the SNP (a political party primarily concerned with Scotland, what with it being in the title), this comes after a very narrow referendum within Scotland on whether to stay in the UK. Depending upon the voter breakdown it might see a call for another referendum, though curiously the EU was a bit hazy on what position Scotland might take during the independence referendum so that might be interesting. I doubt anything major would happen to Wales or Northern Ireland, though it is not impossible that something could happen to Northern Ireland with regards to joining the republic or strengthening ties there. You also have things like Gibraltar (a city sized area on the south of Spain that the UK sort of owns) but that gets complex and we would also have to consider the rest of the former empire, several of which are variously renegotiating or otherwise contemplating their level of ties with the UK and not having the easier access to Europe would factor into that. I doubt if the UK stays and voter lines in Scotland say leave that it would make for another referendum there but the other way around might accelerate things towards another.

It is worth considering also that nobody has ever left the EU, much less a major player within it. For all I mentioned UK internal politics then various other parts of the EU, including said major players, also have their own internal matters to consider and the UK blazing a trail might have knock on effects there. It is not unlike what you see in Quebec for some of those, though possibly with longer and more complex history (people see countries in the EU as old, they are not always and former city states and regions are prominent features today within lots of them). I do not know if it would be quite as huge as a state that matters leaving the US but it would pose similar issues.

The EU itself then. In terms of money in and money out directly (if we are doing secondary effects then we will be here all year and tertiary is too complex to even consider for me) from taxes and whatnot then the EU gets more from than it gives to the UK. Though it is nowhere near enough to massively destabilise things if the UK did stop contributing, though at the same time it would probably see budgets have to be redrawn for reasons other than the UK no longer getting things (I am not sure what things are in agreement to be funded for so many years regardless). The EU does fund a lot of building works and arts and sports and education and other public works that governments also attempt to fund within the UK.
Equally the UK is probably not a major draw for the EU as a concept -- nobody really sits there and thinks "ooh if we have good relations with the EU then we have de facto access to the UK". It might be a perk for some and a reason to go for it but the EU - the UK is a potent entity still. At the same time if the EU can not hold it together and keep the UK in it then it is not going to be a point in its favour. I don't think anywhere would suddenly start speaking to the EU if it was less the UK a la like some places pull out of things if some others decide to call Palestine a state.

For companies (individuals is a very different matter) the UK is not a tax haven for anything really (Monaco and for tech then the Republic of Ireland being the big ones there), nor a particularly useful place for lax laws for finance or environmental laws. It does have a fairly potent financial industry though which would see some things happen. To that end I don't imagine it will see things like what the Republic of Ireland saw a couple of years ago when they were mulling over things and even more attractive places for tech companies decided to pop up. It does however have the biggest stock exchange in terms of market cap in the EU by a considerable way, though volume wise the next European one is greater.

The UK does have a lot of very nice ports*, several of which are largely owned by China and deal with Chinese ships an awful lot, several of which are truly ridiculously huge (post-panamax if you want a term to go searching with) and the EU does not have many things that could otherwise handle them, Germany being notably absent from the list (though with countries on all sites having them and being close to their major cities it is not a big thing). Despite then having to be shipped out afterwards to the mainland the UK is a gateway to Europe for a lot of things. If taxes and tariffs get complicated then the UK becomes a less useful destination and it is doubtful whether the domestic market is big enough to otherwise sustain them in the long term.

*more than any other country in Europe, and a significant percentage of the options in Europe.

I must confess I am not sure to what extent the UK influences EU policy on things. Those that encourage a vote to leave say they want Brussels (by which they mean the EU) to stop controlling UK laws which is a near criminal oversimplification of things as the UK does send people to oversee, debate and vote on what happens. Do also remember that the EU enjoys a somewhat better relationship on the laws front than the US Federal government does to its states. I could point to 10 examples of US states and federal government butting heads from my head, other than this whole migrant thing and maybe the handling of Greece I have not really got much like that for the EU (though said handling is probably the only reasons the referendum in the UK was able to get any real traction). At least for the EU to the UK, some of countries where religion is a bigger thing do occasionally have some issues with some things. Their one nation that is Europe thing they aim for is often poorly executed but seldom to the extent it truly bothers people and most treat it as something of a running joke. The UK potentially not answering to the EU court of human rights would also possibly change things a bit -- a lot of rulings it makes on tech and bioethics are fairly far reaching and not always what the top level UK courts could be trusted to do, though at the same time the ongoing EU vs Google spat showcases the other side of things there. Patents might also be interesting if the UK does not inherently be part of the European patents any more, though that would probably be a minor thing at best.

If it sounds like I mainly looked at internal UK and Eu politics it is because it is where most of it would play out -- the UK is a small island nation, one that acts a bit bigger than its population might dictate compared to elsewhere. It is however one that has very little in the way of natural resources, exportable agriculture, bulk industry or high tech industry you can not get anywhere else (they do exist but none are a major factor in the UK or in their respective markets), it is then what you might call a service economy. There would be ripples and certain things like if you ship something or want to have a bank account somewhere or possibly how it works if you want to go on holiday/travel for business.


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## DjoeN (May 30, 2016)

EU: Started as a nice concept that got f*** by greedy politicians and countries (not all)

Brexit: yes or no
I would say NO, i'm pro EU but not the way it's doing now.
And that's all i'm gonna say about it, you can rant on forever about the EU

[EDIT]
1 thing, what @FAST6191 says:
The EU should indeed stop controlling EU independent country laws and rights! (Not just the UK) and start looking at there own European laws (and rights) and fix them first so they do make some sense, before pushing them out!


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## mgrev (May 30, 2016)

ayyyy. non-eu member here. it's pretty gud


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## FAST6191 (May 30, 2016)

DjoeN said:


> I would say NO, i'm pro EU but not the way it's doing now.
> And that's all i'm gonna say about it, you can rant on forever about the EU



A while ago, mainly in the run up to the US healthcare stuff, various people were trying to describe how the NHS (UK health service for those unaware) was perceived within the UK. I think my favourite summation ran something like you will be able to find many people to whine, bitch, piss and moan about the NHS all day long, however if you suggesting getting rid of it you would find basically nobody that would back you and you would probably also face massive hostility. It might not be quite the same for the EU, in that those I imagine not inherently for it would probably be indifferent or ignorant of what it does rather than be in considered outright opposition, but many of the same sentiments would likely carry.


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## Flame (May 30, 2016)

I am British... And no I don't want Britain to leave EU.



every economist saying that the UK would be worse off from the UK in the 1st 15 years. Things will improve after..


but fuck that; 15 years from now is too long and too much of life time and maybe prime of my life.


*BUT* saying that I would want a all the tax loop holes closed which big companies are using to they advantage which is being part of EU..


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## TayTayTheKiller (May 30, 2016)

Flame said:


> I am British... And no I don't want Britain to leave EU.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Getting sucked into the scare tactics and bullshit I see lol. I'm voting to leave, We will be just fine.

Edit>>

And on the huge plus if we leave, that c**t Cameron will be out of number 10 at long last.


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## Flame (May 30, 2016)

TayTayTheKiller said:


> Getting sucked into the scare tactics and bullshit I see lol. I'm voting to leave, We will be just fine.




I know we will be fine. But not having a growing economy means less jobs. I care about jobs.


and scary tactics?

funny I was thinking that is the tactics what Boris uses. "Soon we will be state of united states of europe and our vote will mean nothing in a UK election" who wants to be PM one day.


plus the newspaper "the Sun" wants us to leave...


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## tech3475 (May 30, 2016)

I'm undecided, the debate seems to be 99% unsubstantiated soundbites for headlines. 

People on both sides saying 'x will happen' but I'm rarely seeing a why.

For me the ideal would just be something saying here's the benefits and here's the issues with verified sources and then let me decide from there.


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## Deleted-355425 (May 30, 2016)

i vote leave, time to close the gates.


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## Uwabami (May 30, 2016)

I think England should leave. For decades, politicians have blamed their own faults on Europe and took the credit for things Europe did well. Now big-mouths like David Cameron have to deliver the referendum they always threatened to distract from their own fuck-ups. Cameron himself doesn't want to leave, because he knows they're better off in the EU. And he knows that Scottland, Ireland and Wales do not want to leave and would probably start another referendum to secede from the UK and stay in the EU.

Now, I know there's a lot of things wrong in the EU, for instance, I don't like that the commission is decided by the European Governments and not directly by the voters. The lack of solidarity is another point. And I know my own Government (for which I didn't vote for what it's worth) is partly to blame for this.

But England has torpedoed all attempts in the past to change those and many other shortcomings (like a financial transaction tax to stop another clusterfuck in the market) and continues to do so. They got their rebate (Thatcher's famous "I want my money back") and they do the dirty work and quite a lot of spying on behalf of the US Administration inside the EU (which is why the US wants the UK to stay).

I really would like to see England leave, because they would very soon find out what exactly the EU did for them in the past and that their own government lied to them about blame and credit. Banks have already said they would move to another city (like Frankfurt) to stay in the common market and britain doesn't have any other sector to speak of, because the great Thatcher herself killed off all the others to build "The City". There are no medium-sized businesses left in the UK, which is the backbone of all wealthy countries.

Let them leave and find out what the EU is really worth and then beg us to take them back. But this time there won't be a rebate.


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## Deleted User (Jun 14, 2016)

It's so nice to see all the fear mongering and bullshit being spewed by the left. And to watch it all unfold without consequence! Its great


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

VinLark said:


> It's so nice to see all the fear mongering and bullshit being spewed by the left. And to watch it all unfold without consequence! Its great



You're right, fear-mongering and bullshit is usually reserved for the far right (defend our country in the middle east, saddam's got nukes, putin is satan himself, the gays are evil, foreigners will kill us all).

But thanks for your lesson in European Politics, 13-year old kid from the US!


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## Deleted User (Jun 15, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> You're right, fear-mongering and bullshit is usually reserved for the far right (defend our country in the middle east, saddam's got nukes, putin is satan himself, the gays are evil, foreigners will kill us all).
> 
> But thanks for your lesson in European Politics, 13-year old kid from the US!


Sure, anytime tomato (your profile picture looks like a tomato) from a foreign country.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

VinLark said:


> Sure, anytime tomato (your profile picture looks like a tomato) from a foreign country.



It's not your fault you can't recognize vegetables when you see them when all you eat is junk food.

And I'm from a European country directly involved in this situation. Also, I'm sure I know a lot more about US Politics than you do. Go back to your Clan Meeting/Trump Rally... (same thing)


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## Deleted User (Jun 15, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> It's not your fault you can't recognize vegetables when you see them when all you eat is junk food.
> 
> And I'm from a European country directly involved in this situation. Also, I'm sure I know a lot more about US Politics than you do. Go back to your Clan Meeting/Trump Rally... (same thing)


K

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I love that you assume I support Trump. Don't know where you got that from. 
Also don't know why your being so passive aggressive. If you want to say something nothing is stopping you.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

VinLark said:


> I love that you assume I support Trump. Don't know where you got that from.
> Also don't know why your being so passive aggressive. If you want to say something nothing is stopping you.





VinLark said:


> It's so nice to see all the fear mongering and bullshit being spewed by the left. And to watch it all unfold without consequence! Its great



You accused "the left" (which from an US POV should be pretty much everyone in Europe) of "fear-mongering" and "bullshit". Gee, and you call my rebut "passive-aggressive". I wonder how I was able to figure out you're a Trump supporter?


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## pastaconsumer (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm confused... What would this mean for the US if the UK left the EU?


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

TheGrayShow1467 said:


> I'm confused... What would this mean for the US if the UK left the EU?



Harder to inject US policy into the EU Commission. Harder to get Top Secret transcripts from the Commission and Parliament. UK as a business partner will be less attractive.


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## Deleted User (Jun 15, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> You accused "the left" (which from an US POV should be pretty much everyone in Europe) of "fear-mongering" and "bullshit". Gee, and you call my rebut "passive-aggressive". I wonder how I was able to figure out you're a Trump supporter?


I wasn't directing my post to anyone. If your logic is me saying something bad about the left that means me being an automatic Trump supporter, than sign me up. I was just saying there is a lot of fear-mongering on the left. I wasn't looking to rip apart the left. Though I could.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

VinLark said:


> I wasn't directing my post to anyone. If your logic is me saying something bad about the left that means me being an automatic Trump supporter, than sign me up.



You were directing your post at "the left", you know, these know-it-all hippies who don't shave and think you should treat everyone as the human being they are - even "those gays" and "those arabs".


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## Deleted User (Jun 15, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> You were directing your post at "the left", you know, these know-it-all hippies who don't shave and think you should tread everyone as the human being they are - even "those gays" and "those arabs".


I really think your being sarcastic now.....

Your taking my post so out of context your making me sound like I said kill all gays. Jesus Christ calm down. 
I can see why your part of the left now.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

VinLark said:


> I really think your being sarcastic now.....
> 
> Your taking my post so out of context your making me sound like I said kill all gays. Jesus Christ calm down.
> I can see why your part of the left now.



I never accused you of wanting to murder someone. And wow, you think I'm being sarcastic? What made you think that, Mr. "there is a lot of fear-mongering on the left"? Fox News or the Drudge Report?


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## Deleted User (Jun 15, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I never accused you of wanting to murder someone. And wow, you think I'm being sarcastic? What made you think that, Mr. "there is a lot of fear-mongering on the left"? Fox News or the Drudge Report?


Ok yeah. I am done here. Your obviously a crazy leftest looking for a internet dual to make your ego feel better. This is getting nonsensical now. Bringing up those good ol' right stereotypes.


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## vayanui8 (Jun 15, 2016)

I can't say I really know enough about Europe to make a judgement on it. However, if the EU is as incompetant as the UN then I'm not surprised that people want to leave.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

VinLark said:


> Ok yeah. I am done here. Your obviously a crazy leftest looking for a internet dual to make your ego feel better. This is getting nonsensical now. Bringing up those good ol' right stereotypes.



Wait, you really didn't notice you started it by stereotyping "the left", which again, from a US POV is really everyone in Europe (health care, unemployment benefits, free education in most countries, modern voting laws that don't discriminate anyone).



vayanui8 said:


> I can't say I really know enough about Europe to make a judgement on it. However, if the EU is as incompetant as the UN then I'm not surprised that people want to leave.



England benefits massively from the EU's common market and poorer parts of the country like Cornwall are dependent on EU money, as are farmers. The EU does need a lot of reforms, but one of the biggest breaks on those has been England (not the UK as a whole).

Leaving the common market will of course hurt their economy. And again: Scotland and probably Northern Ireland and Wales want to stay.


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## AkGBA (Jun 15, 2016)

vayanui8 said:


> I can't say I really know enough about Europe to make a judgement on it. However, if the EU is as incompetant as the UN then I'm not surprised that people want to leave.



Well, the UN and the EU have different roles. You can't possibly compare an assembly of countries which goals is peace on Earth to an economic union between neighbor states.

That said, I don't know what to vote, about the Brexit.
What I do know is that I'm fed up with the current state of the EU. Only a economic union,, with economic policies only which only benefits big companies and right wing parties. Did you know that the EU parliament has never had a left majority ? Only right from start.

Time to stop this, and let's make a social union, that can benefits every EU citizen, not only companies.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

AkGBA said:


> Well, the UN and the EU have different roles. You can't possibly compare an assembly of countries which goals is peace on Earth to an economic union between neighbor states.
> 
> That said, I don't know what to vote, about the Brexit.
> What I do know is that I'm fed up with the current state of the EU. Only a economic union,, with economic policies only which only benefits big companies and right wing parties. Did you know that the EU parliament has never had a left majority ? Only right for start.
> ...



Well, for this we'll need a closer political union with ministers and a "president" of sorts. Especially England, but also our countries have prevented this in the past. But in the end, we need a "United States of Europe" to stay together and equate wealth in all regions.


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 15, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Well, for this we'll need a closer political union with ministers and a "president" of sorts. Especially England, but also our countries have prevented this in the past. But in the end, we need a "United States of Europe" to stay together and equate wealth in all regions.



We don't need the EU, we've had rescissions and a overload on our health service since we joined and it's time the gravel boat gets shut.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

mech said:


> We don't need the EU, we've had rescissions and a overload on our health service since we joined and it's time the gravel boat gets shut.



Good. Leave. You've only looked out for yourselves (the "Rebate") and were always the break on real reforms. Good riddance.


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## spinal_cord (Jun 15, 2016)

mech said:


> We don't need the EU, we've had rescissions and a overload on our health service since we joined and it's time the gravel boat gets shut.



We have had plenty recessions before the EU came about (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_Kingdom) AS for the NHS, it was only formed a couple (literally) of years before the EU.


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

spinal_cord said:


> We have had plenty recessions before the EU came about (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_Kingdom) AS for the NHS, it was only formed a couple (literally) of years before the EU.



I hope you didn't take my rebut to your countryman personal. I do like Brits, got some friends there as well, but I also believe you should leave the EU. That doesn't mean we can't trade or be friends anymore.


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## Youkai (Jun 15, 2016)

It is always so funny to hear English people saying in interviews how bad the EU is and that they are only paying and not receiving anything XD

A lot of EU money goes into the UK and it is no wonder that Cameron who was the worst anti EU guy for a long time is now begging the people no to vote against the EU ... It was already a big mistake not to get the Euro in my opinion as it would not only have benefited th thete UK but the whole EU as well -.-

Maybe the Government should try to inform the people as good as possible before letting them vote for something as important as leaving the EU,
I think most people (me as well) are hardly enough informed about what the EU does as usually we only get infos like "the EU uses up X amount of Euro to regulate how a banana has to look like ..." and stuff like that.




> In 2014 the UK received €6.98 billion in EU funding. Of this, €3.95 billion, or 57%, went on farm spending, *which is above the EU average* of 42%. Regional policy accounted for €1.72 billion (25%), *well below the EU average* of 42%. Research and development accounted for €1.02 billion (15%), *more than double the EU average* of 7%.



But I have to admit that the UK pays more than it gets like 90% of all the country's with exceptions like Greece and such ...


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## Uwabami (Jun 15, 2016)

Youkai said:


> It is always so funny to hear English people saying in interviews how bad the EU is and that they are only paying and not receiving anything XD
> 
> A lot of EU money goes into the UK and it is no wonder that Cameron who was the worst anti EU guy for a long time is now begging the people no to vote against the EU ... It was already a big mistake not to get the Euro in my opinion as it would not only have benefited th thete UK but the whole EU as well -.-
> 
> ...



The UK gets access to the common market. Again: ask Norway and Switzerland how paying for access without having any say on its rules has been like. Also, Scots, and likely the Irish and Welsh as well would consider another referendum to leave the UK and stay in the EU. There's a real chance this will tear the UK apart.


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## Originality (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm voting to stay. That's all I need to say.
There's no need for a show against those who want to go.


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## emigre (Jun 15, 2016)

Yeah, I'm voting to remain. To leave a huge economic block is insane particularly it's going to have on our economy. The EU is far from an ideal set up in terms of current organisation and vision. But there's certainly good with EU money used to invest in some of the poorest parts of Britain in the North and Wales. The Leave campaign has not been able to provide a tangible argument let alone vision to make me even contemplate leaving, you cannot magically make up for the lost of an economic union and billions lost from there to the promise of new Jerusalem. The idea that we could have a relationship with the EU like Norway is pretty farcical in itself where we would end be ending up paying 90% of what EU members pay in and 0% of the say.

But hey, for a lot of people this isn't an economic argument but an emotional argument whether it be wanting to give politicians a punch in the face or the inane belief the EU is entirely responsible for the problems we have in Blighty. The frustrating thing for me the complete failure of the Remain who focused so much on Project Fear which is a terrible way to run any kind of campaign.


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## CosmoCortney (Jun 19, 2016)

VinsCool said:


> I'm curious. Would this change anything to the world situation?


It would change a lot. The UK is one of the 4 biggest economical countries of the EU. A Brexit would be a huge loss for the Europen economy. For instance, Airbus machine parts are mainly produced in the UK, Germany, France and Spain. If the UK leaves the EU the business will become very obfuscating I think. For us European citizens it will be very annoying if we want to go on vacation to the UK, work there for some time and so on due the lack of the Schengen Agreement. Import and export can easily be adhered by extra taxes.

please correct me if i'm wrong


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 20, 2016)

Disappointing that so many people said 'No' in this thread's poll. I guess sovereignty means nothing to them. 

And of course all the Germans are saying how 'good' the EU is for the UK, no surprises there. 



Uwabami said:


> You're right, fear-mongering and bullshit is usually reserved for the far right!


Everyone who doesn't share my ideology must be far right!


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## Deleted User (Jun 20, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Disappointing that so many people said 'No' in this thread's poll. I guess sovereignty means nothing to them.
> 
> And of course all the Germans are saying how 'good' the EU is for the UK, no surprises there.
> 
> ...


Haha yep. Pretty sad if I do say so myself. Can't wait to see what happens. It's like a movie. Wow!


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## FAST6191 (Jun 20, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Disappointing that so many people said 'No' in this thread's poll. I guess sovereignty means nothing to them.


How does being in the EU trouble the sovereignty of the UK? Also even if it did would it be a bad thing?


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## EmanueleBGN (Jun 20, 2016)

I hope that UK leave EU and that other Countries will follow its choise to destroy the EU dictatorship


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 20, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> How does being in the EU trouble the sovereignty of the UK? Also even if it did would it be a bad thing?


Because EU law effectively takes precedence over UK legislature, which began with the European Communities Act and has continually been reinforced since then, especially by the European Court of Justice in recent years. Thankfully the migrant crisis and talk of a European army has put the importance of sovereignty into perspective, not for only the UK but other nations in Europe as well.

And as for your second question, it's because (believe it or not) Democracy is important, and being able to exercise it without exterior influence from bureaucrats and other nations is a good thing. The way things are headed, more and more power will be taken from the people of the UK. Economic trade agreements are one thing, but to not see the growing authoritarianism of the EU would be naïve, at least in my view.

I hope that Brexit does occur, and that it will produce a domino effect for other nations negatively affected by the EU (Greece and Sweden for example) that already have some anti-EU sentiment to get out as well.

_Edit_: Fixed some grammar and typos.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 20, 2016)

The UK, and every other country in the EU, does not sit there complying with surprise mandates from on high and paying for the privilege -- they send people, elected no less and done so at the same frequency as national elections happen these days, to discuss and debate said things along with the rest of Europe (give or take some fuzziness with some countries like Norway). Functionally I am not seeing a great difference to states in the US, provinces in Canada, states and territories in Australia, German states, French regions and departments, the various countries in the UK and so on and so on. Granted each of those is not without their own issues in the places they form parts of but I would place the notion of a one of those leaving as similar to any of those others leaving.

Also there is a international army composed largely of EU types, it is called NATO.


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 20, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> The UK, and every other country in the EU, does not sit there complying with surprise mandates from on high and paying for the privilege -- they send people, elected no less and done so at the same frequency as national elections happen these days, to discuss and debate said things along with the rest of Europe (give or take some fuzziness with some countries like Norway).


And Brits take up less than 10% of the EU parliament. And let's not forget about the European Council or the European Commission, the members of the latter of which are appointed by the Council and approved by the Parliament. So there's clearly very little in regards to direct representation of the interests of British people, especially when you consider than over half (depending on who you ask) of British laws from the past two decades have been EU regulations or directives. And that's not even going into the thousands of civil servants that play their roles in EU administration.



FAST6191 said:


> Functionally I am not seeing a great difference to states in the US, provinces in Canada, states and territories in Australia, German states, French regions and departments, the various countries in the UK and so on and so on. Granted each of those is not without their own issues in the places they form parts of but I would place the notion of a one of those leaving as similar to any of those others leaving.


Firstly, you're wrong about France, as it doesn't have separate governments for its various regions. And secondly, states (as in those of the US of Australia) don't have their own independent economies as such, they often have shared histories going back a hundred years or more, and 'well the US is no different' isn't exactly what I would call a strong argument. The EU (in one form or another) has existed only for a few decades, why would you want your nation diminished to the level of a state/regional government?



FAST6191 said:


> Also there is a international army composed largely of EU types, it is called NATO.


NATO is an alliance involving the militaries of a number of nations, not the independent army of a supra-national system.


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## T-hug (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm voting out.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 20, 2016)

I am not seeing the problem with the first one -- smaller and smaller divisions will almost always represent smaller parts of the whole. Indeed not doing so is usually considered a bad thing unless you can point to a working meritocracy, and as dearly as I would love to see one of those I imagine I will see a pure communist setup work before then.

I would argue otherwise on independent economies and histories, not to mention the EU itself might be relatively new but the concepts underpinning it go deeper. It has gone wrong in fairly spectacular fashion a couple of times but the concepts were there. The lead up to world war 1 and the groups involved would be where I look for the older ones there. Equally if many of the examples, several of which are newer nations as these things go, don't have independent economies now then I would wonder how much of that is due to modern communications and transport, as well as how much actually still is a somewhat local affair (I know you usually get places in a larger country that get referred to as a breadbasket but I would still look there).
On percentage of laws then quite possibly, how many of those have been terribly opposed or otherwise saw notable opposition we could consider in this? It causes some problems for police where much of their ongoing training would appear to be in EU driven stuff but that would probably be an implementation within the forces thing rather than something more. Otherwise I dare say the US federal government enjoys a greater amount of opposition. Similarly though I have no great problem with the higher courts of the UK I would place more stock in the EU courts for many things, and I definitely trust them to maintain a working IP system more than I trust the UK government to do it. The matter of civil servants creating policy then I would find that preferably to the US style vote every position approach.

Why wouldn't I want the world to get smaller?

Generally I would find national pride to be a good concept in matters of sports, which I can happily ignore for most things, but not much more than that. I dare say that influences more of where I find myself and that might be a fundamentally different one to the position you hold. I said earlier that the "one nation that is Europe" concept the EU seems to push is pretty laughable in their implementation. However I would sooner consider what negatives the UK leaving Europe might have on Europe as a whole than what, seemingly minor, perks there might be for the UK. If it was the route to the land of milk and honey I would possibly still have pause.

France might have been a suspect choice/exercise in list padding, though there would appear to be enough regional identities in parts to have certain takes on separatist movements so I will say there is scope to say something there.

On NATO then as long as my TV says "NATO forces engaged or were engaged, were deployed to ?, were sent to resolve a conflict....." I am not going to be able to be able to make much of a distinction. If the theoretical EU army stood much of a chance of being an aggressor force I would go have a think but I am not seeing it.


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 20, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> ~snip~


Well, I suppose we just have different views on the role that a nation should have. I believe that each people (whether it be the British people, or the Australian people, or whoever) should stand up for their own interests and pursue more direct democracy and self-governance. I do not like the idea of making/forcing the British people (or the people of any nation) to make personal sacrifices on the behalf of the rest of Europe or those beyond.

And lastly, I believe 'NATO forces' is just a shorthand for 'the forces of [some number of] NATO members'.


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## Youkai (Jun 20, 2016)

Some people would prefer the old times where every little town was their own "nation" and had their kind which they would follow into war with their neighbours instead of standing together with as much of the whole world as possible.

and Xip you know, we Germans in this thread are not actually saying the UK should not leave because this would benefit us ... actually with UK leaving a lot of the Financial stuff that the EU currently does in London (I read ~700.000 people working for financial companies there and a big lot of them because of the EU) would mainly go to Frankfurt (probably) which would benefit us a lot ... and even if some companies would have a harder time trading with the UK we would still have a big Europe to trade with and the UK would be all alone which would hurt any company that does import and export !

in TV they even said it could help us because the change in the Euro price could be a good thing for us

not sure about the big thing all together but for us small people it would be good if they leave still most people think in the long term it would be bad for all of Europe


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 20, 2016)

Youkai said:


> Some people would prefer the old times where every little town was their own "nation" and had their kind which they would follow into war with their neighbours instead of standing together with as much of the whole world as possible.


It is possible to stand together with others and still be sovereign. The situation you're describing is merely relinquishing one's freedom. Why is it so bad for people to want to decide how they would want to live their own lives?



Youkai said:


> and Xip you know, we Germans in this thread are not actually saying the UK should not leave because this would benefit us


Yes, and I'm sure Germany said the same thing to Greece.



Youkai said:


> and even if some companies would have a harder time trading with the UK we would still have a big Europe to trade with and the UK would be all alone which would hurt any company that does import and export


So no EU countries trade with Iceland, Norway, Switzerland or Lichtenstein? Do EU countries not do trade with China, the US or Australia? Last time I checked we weren't part of the EU.

The UK could still be part of the European Economic Area without being part of the EU. The notion that Brexit would mean that the UK wouldn't be able to trade (or even have a significantly harder time trading) with EU countries any more is a big joke.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 20, 2016)

I suppose you then have to ask what is a nation or people, and when does it become one, and when do two or more nations merge. Is it language, is it ease of governance (anybody can reasonably be anywhere in the world in 24 hours for not an awful lot of money, bulk transport is similarly cheap and communications are bordering on free and instant for nearly everybody), is it some take on ethnicity, is it poor governance (how many separatist movements spring from places where people are allowed to get on with their customs and traditions?), what historical factors would want to be considered and indeed how many of those would want to be actively ignored because they are not terribly useful?
Many countries would show a divide in spending vs revenue (in England it is North - South, give or take some things Cornwall does with the north getting more than it gives) and it then risks going into ever smaller lines (various towns in the UK have made bids to be self governing zones distinct from the counties they find themselves in, money, healthcare, local laws and more being cited as reasons for attempting it). That you would consider the Australian people a distinct concept would be a good thing to explore there; most would say it is the case and the only times anybody in the UK really hears about it or considers it would be if rugby is on (nobody cares about cricket that did not go to public school (others reading UK public school more or less means private school elsewhere) or is over 60), they or a friend is going on holiday/doing a working holiday/was once a £10 pom, are currently watching a film/tv show set there or... actually I am not sure much is imported from Australia either (New Zealand lamb is about as close as that gets, though numbers wise there might be something to be said for Australian beef).
What might those personal sacrifices be as well? What tangible effects might there be and would they be outweighed by the less tangible (no visa travel and the ability to work or find someone with skills to come work for me or ship me something without issue is pretty sweet, even if I personally/directly don't make use of a lot of it).

If we do go with the idea that the EU is a new concept then would not some of this be the teething problems of a new nation? There are other regions with similar areas (inhabited ones even), geographic closeness, population, general takes on industry, climates... that get called nations.

Edit
" The UK could still be part of the European Economic Area without being part of the EU. The notion that Brexit would mean that the UK wouldn't be able to trade (or even have a significantly harder time trading) with EU countries any more is a big joke. "
True, however how long would the negotiations take, what concessions would have to be given, is there a viable plan in place and more do also want to be considered. This would be one of the times I go selfish and care about the immediate future than some more abstract more distant future (I am not getting younger and things are starting to pick up for me, if I theoretically have a harder or more complex time for the next few years as things get ironed out then I am going to be one foot in the grave at that point and certainly past my prime, to say nothing of my generally caring for the EU region a bit more than I do the UK -- the UK is probably fat enough to take it).


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## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

And the pound hits the lowest level since 1985. The economic impact is going to be interesting.

So who reckons the new PM will be? Cameron is a dead man walking now.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And Britain votes for Brexit!

The pound hits the lowest level since 1985. The economic impact is going to be interesting.

So who reckons the new PM will be? Cameron is a dead man walking now.


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## VinsCool (Jun 24, 2016)

I hope you Britain people won't suffer too much from it.


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Freedom has prevailed.


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## proflayton123 (Jun 24, 2016)

The pound has dropped.. Very badly 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

The pound has literally become toy money now. I think it looks likely stuff like clothes and food will increase. After the last couple of years, I really didn't want another hit to my finances.

Time to start the London Independence movement.


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

Wowowowowowo the pound has dropped bad. Good luck people living in the UK...

Sent from my potato I bought with my 0.7432 pound


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

Welp, Great Britain just fucked themselves


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

Better get your wallets ready because you US people get a 20% discount on the pound. Your nationalism fucked you guys up hard.

GG Britain


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## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

Don't blame me lads, I voted remain.

Lulz at Brexiters wanting Cameron to stay on, Cam would have no authority. I gonna give D-Cam three months max.


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)




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## Xenon Hacks (Jun 24, 2016)

lol im just watching the pound drop live on my phone


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## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

I have £18k saved up in the bank, the realisation my life savings is worthless now is fucking depressing.


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## Xenon Hacks (Jun 24, 2016)

Should have converted your money to USD to an offshore account to be safe before the final vote 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

Well I guess you can say this is....

TotalInsanity huehuehuejue

I'm sorry


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## I pwned U! (Jun 24, 2016)

If only the people that voted in favor heeded John Oliver's warning and listened to the song at the end...


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## grossaffe (Jun 24, 2016)

A crash is to be expected in a time of uncertainty.  The pound will rebound, the question is where it'll settle.



I pwned U! said:


> If only the people that voted in favor heeded John Oliver's warning and listened to the song at the end...


You know, I watched that a night or two ago, and I didn't really see much to really explain exactly why it was a bad idea.  He spent more time dragging the supporters of the exit through the mud than he did explaining precisely why it's a bad idea.


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## T-hug (Jun 24, 2016)

The market reaction is hilarious, overreaction everywhere. It's day 1 not the end of the world.


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

OH no the pound is physically useless! Nooooo 

Yeah it will rebound. This is a knee jerk reaction


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> Youknow, I watched that a night or two ago, and I didn't really see much to really explain exactly why it was a bad idea.  He spent more time dragging the supporters of the exit through the mud than he did explaining precisely why it's a bad idea.


Welcome to the entire Remain campaign: "Look at how racist Leavers are! You don't want to be racist, do you?"


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## Costello (Jun 24, 2016)

As a French and European I was hoping for more unity, I always thought we were going towards some sort of European nation, something like the United States of Europe. But it's safe to say all hope is now lost. The British people have spoken and they don't want to be a part of this. Is it a dumb decision, should we resent them? I don't believe so. I believe the people over there in the UK are angry and they think leaving the EU is going to solve their problems. I am certainly not in a position to tell whether they are correct. All I can say is I sincerely hope they won't regret this decision.

Goodbye my British friends, we still love you though. 
A european


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> You know, I watched that a night or two ago, and I didn't really see much to really explain exactly why it was a bad idea.  He spent more time dragging the supporters of the exit through the mud than he did explaining precisely why it's a bad idea.


He gave plenty of reasons

Over-regulation is an exaggeration
It's more expensive to leave than to stay
Pound will destabilize because it isn't tied to the euro anymore
There's literally no backup plan
There's not even a good reason for leaving, aside from wanting to secure the borders, and they won't even be able to do that without leaving the EU trade agreement (which would be committing financial and economic suicide)


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

Haha we won  byyyyyyyeeeee


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Costello said:


> As a French and European I was hoping for more unity, I always thought we were going towards some sort of European nation, something like the United States of Europe. But it's safe to say all hope is now lost. The British people have spoken and they don't want to be a part of this. Is it a dumb decision, should we resent them? I don't believe so. I believe the people over there in the UK are angry and they think leaving the EU is going to solve their problems. I am certainly not in a position to tell whether they are correct. All I can say is I sincerely hope they won't regret this decision.
> 
> Goodbye my British friends, we still love you though.
> A european


People like you are the exact reason why Brexit is a good idea.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> People like you are the exact reason why Brexit is a good idea.


??? Explain?


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## Jao Chu (Jun 24, 2016)

Lol, now watch all the left-tards start slinging labels like xenophobics, islamaphobics etc. to the people who voted in favour of withdrawal from the EU 

The people have spoken, 2016, the year where progressivism collapses and common sense prevails


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

Jao Chu said:


> Lol, now watch all the left-tards start slinging labels like xenophobics, islamaphobics etc. to the people who voted in favour of withdrawal from the EU
> 
> The people have spoken, 2016, the year where progressivism collapses and common sense prevails


So tell me, then, why was the in/out referendum a good idea?

To be completely honest I didn't even know until now that it could even be perceived as xenophobic to want to leave, but meh. Also, you might want to get your obsession with hating the left political wing checked, it's getting kind of unhealthy


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)




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## vayanui8 (Jun 24, 2016)

I wouldn't worry about the value of the pound yet. When a major change like this takes place things are extremely unstable. It'll all stabilize after a little while and its value will become similar to what it was before. Give it a little time and things will even out. Hopefully it doesn't take long


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

the People of UK are sick of the country being leeched on and ass raped. Finally we have broken free of the sponges.


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## vayanui8 (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So tell me, then, why was the in/out referendum a good idea?
> 
> To be completely honest I didn't even know until now that it could even be perceived as xenophobic to want to leave, but meh. Also, you might want to get your obsession with hating the left political wing checked, it's getting kind of unhealthy


I believe one of the motivations for leaving was that the EU's policy was sending more refugees to the UK than many people wanted. This is pretty often used to throw accusations of racism at people so I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's whats happening


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## DjoeN (Jun 24, 2016)

In the end, not much will change 
Ppl adopt, so we will learn to live with the UK like we do with Switserland and Norway

Maybe more countries will follow
Time will tell how good/bad it was/is and what's gonna happen 

Maybe it's the start of the EU falling appart like USSR once did :/ or not!

Anyway, we need rules to trade between countries, in or out the EU, new rules will be needed with the UK!
Ow wait, maybe it's the start of someting new: "Trade Federation"
Then we only need a new Sith Lord! and Emperor!


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

XD The people on another forum I am on are literally circlejerking talking about how this will ruin the economy and we should be ashamed of ourselves for supporting Brexit.

The person wanted Britain to not leave because he was receiving benefits from the EU. XDDDDD. Wow nice


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

vayanui8 said:


> I believe one of the motivations for leaving was that the EU's policy was sending more refugees to the UK than many people wanted. This is pretty often used to throw accusations of racism at people so I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's whats happening


Ah, I guess that's understandable

Why exactly would leaving the EU help that situation, though?...


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## proflayton123 (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ah, I guess that's understandable
> 
> Why exactly would leaving the EU help that situation, though?...


Thing is, it wouldn't 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## grossaffe (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> He gave plenty of reasons
> 
> Over-regulation is an exaggeration *| This does not explain that leaving is a bad idea.*
> 
> ...


I went into the video knowing little about the repurcussions of England leaving the EU, and I left knowing little about the repurcussions.  There were a couple assertions of doom-and-gloom, and a lot of attacks on certain outspoken supporters of exiting, but not really much covering the facts.


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## retrofan_k (Jun 24, 2016)

The end of the day, the UK has already gone to shit for a long time, so it makes no difference being "in"or "out".  People will be butt hurt either side, yet I'm just glad I got my USD at a good rate before it dropped like it has now.


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

The part that stood out is when one of his points where "da are wasict and that's why we should vote remain". Like wtf? Two people said racial remarks. That's not a point


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## vayanui8 (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ah, I guess that's understandable
> 
> Why exactly would leaving the EU help that situation, though?...


I'd assume it would now allow Britain to put up tighter birder security, and they no longer have to adhere to policies put in place by the EU that allowed people to come in from other EU counties without the need of a passport.


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

DjoeN said:


> Maybe it's the start of the EU falling appart like USSR once did


One can only hope.



DjoeN said:


> Anyway, we need rules to trade between countries, in or out the EU, new rules will be needed with the UK!


It's called the European Economic Area.



proflayton123 said:


> Thing is, it wouldn't


It will allow the UK parliament to decide for themselves how many people they want to take in, regardless of EU regulations, as well as set up border control and security on their own terms, not to mention the 'free movement of EU citizens'.

There are more arguments for Brexit than those to do with immigration. Though, as an Australian, I understand why it would be #1 for many people.


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## Vappy (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ah, I guess that's understandable
> 
> Why exactly would leaving the EU help that situation, though?...


It wouldn't, since to keep trading with the EU we'd have to comply with virtually all the same rules we do currently anyway. The entire thing was a power play by Cameron who was sure the vote would just go Remain, played up by scaremongers.


Spoiler


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> I went into the video knowing little about the repurcussions of England leaving the EU, and I left knowing little about the repurcussions.  There were a couple assertions of doom-and-gloom, and a lot of attacks on certain outspoken supporters of exiting, but not really much covering the facts.


Watch this, it helped me a little bit (ignore the... odd source, I know you wouldn't expect political advice from a gamer channel)


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## Jao Chu (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So tell me, then, why was the in/out referendum a good idea?
> 
> To be completely honest I didn't even know until now that it could even be perceived as xenophobic to want to leave, but meh. Also, you might want to get your obsession with hating the left political wing checked, it's getting kind of unhealthy



Lol, you really have a problem with me being passionate about something, hey? You know what happens when someone is passionate? Music gets produced, art is created and man steps foot on an extraterrestrial body (the moon)

Why are you always the first to quote me when i speak about political stuff? Perhaps it is, in fact, that your habits are the unhealthy ones?

All I am doing is exercising this little thing called free speech, Your "country" says you are from the US, so perhaps you are familiar with it? It's one of the most fundamental things for democracy 

Of course, i respect your right to voice your opposing opinions to my own, but damn man, the obsession with me is getting out of control 

And regarding the xenophobia labelling of pro br-exit persons, go and check out your typical left-wing media outlets, they already slinging those labels around. Vox, in particular.


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Also, you might want to get your obsession with hating the left political wing checked, it's getting kind of unhealthy


>implying the left doesn't attack anyone and everyone who disagrees with their ideology as being 'the evil racist right wing'


----------



## Youkai (Jun 24, 2016)

Still I doubt they will actually leave ^^V
The difference between "stay and leave" is not that big and as far as I know this was only to show that they want to leave (recommend to do so) but in the end the government has the last word here.


----------



## grossaffe (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Watch this, it helped me a little bit (ignore the... odd source, I know you wouldn't expect political advice from a gamer channel)


Didn't find that very informative, either.  I think the only fact I gleaned from it was Nigel doesn't know what's going to happen.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> Still I doubt they will actually leave ^^V
> The difference between "stay and leave" is not that big and as far as I know this was only to show that they want to leave but in the end the government has the last word here.


Admit that your Fourth Reich is coming to an end :^)


And Britain, never forget who your true allies are...


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

Jao Chu said:


> Lol, you really have a problem with me being passionate about something, hey? You know what happens when someone is passionate, Music gets produced, art is created and man stepped foot on an extraterrestrial body (the moon)


What are you passionate about?...


> Why are you always the first to quote me when i speak about political stuff? Perhaps it is, in fact, that your habits are the unhealthy ones?


90% of the time it's because I'm already watching the thread and you comment on it later on down the line. 10% of the time it's because I stumble into the thread from the front page while you're saying something. Don't give yourself that much credit hon :^)


> All I am doing is exercising this little thing called free speech, Your "country" says you are from the US, so perhaps you are familiar with it? It's one of the most fundamental things for democracy


I never challenged that


> Of course, i respect your right to voice your opposing opinions to my own, but damn man, the obsession with me is getting out of control


By the way, you really slickly dodged the question I initially asked, regarding why the in/out referendum was a good idea in your eyes. Don't argue just for the sake of arguing, especially if it isn't productive


> And regarding the xenophobia labelling of pro br-exit persons, go and check out your typical left-wing media outlets, they already slinging those labels around. Vox, in particular.


I've been perusing Flipboard the last few weeks (and I have a relatively balanced set of sources, I should add. I could probably tune it better for international news, though), and I've heard various reasons why leaving would be a bad idea, but this is legit the first I've heard of it being an issue of race. I guess thank you for giving me that piece of info? I legitimately didn't know it before now


----------



## rasputin (Jun 24, 2016)

Nothing has changed the same evil elite rule us.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> Didn't find that very informative, either.  I think the only fact I gleaned from it was Nigel doesn't know what's going to happen.


Eh, that's fair. I guess if I were a UK citizen I would just be really concerned about diving headfirst into a decision with no roadmap ahead of you


----------



## Youkai (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Admit that your Fourth Reich is coming to an end :^)
> 
> 
> And Britain, never forget who your true allies are...
> ...



Not sure if this was a Joke or not but I think people who still think that Germany tries to conquer the world need to go see a doctor -.-V
I feel really offended by jokes like this as not even my grandparents actually fought at the last war and noone of us has anything to do with it.


And the EU is nothing governed by Germany even though I have to admit in German news they make it sound like Merkel has a saying in a lot of matters oO

I somehow I don't get why you have an Australian Flag and speak like you are the number one British guy who ...


----------



## grossaffe (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Eh, that's fair. I guess if I were a UK citizen I would just be really concerned about diving headfirst into a decision with no roadmap ahead of you


Don't get me wrong, I'm very much undecided on the issue.  Just the videos posted to this point haven't really done much to inform me on the issue.  They're telling me it's a bad idea, but I've not been provided the information that, were I to review it, would lead me to conclude it's a bad idea.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm very much undecided on the issue.  Just the videos posted to this point haven't really done much to inform me on the issue.  They're telling me it's a bad idea, but I've not been provided the information that, were I to review it, would lead me to conclude it's a bad idea.


Part of it is that a week ago I knew next to nothing about it, so I'm still playing catch-up lol


----------



## grossaffe (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Part of it is that a week ago I knew next to nothing about it, so I'm still playing catch-up lol


I didn't even know it was a thing until I stumbled across the John Oliver video, so I will credit it with that: it informed me that there was a referendum to leave the EU.  Of course I would've found out this morning (as in Thursday) when it was mentioned on the radio as I was driving to work.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> Not sure if this was a Joke or not but I think people who still think that Germany tries to conquer the world need to go see a doctor -.-V
> And the EU is nothing governed by Germany even though I have to admit in German news they make it sound like Merkel has a saying in a lot of matters oO


It was a joke with a kernel of truth. I think that you'd have to be naïve to suggest that Germany (read: Merkel) doesn't have the primary influence on EU matters (especially immigration).



Youkai said:


> I somehow I don't get why you have an Australian Flag and speak like you are the number one British guy who ...


I may be Australian, but I have familial ties to the UK (as well as to Greece and Cyprus), so I feel it does give me reason to take interest in the EU, and probably does influence my views on it.


----------



## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

Does this pound dilemma mean I can get a discount on the UK steam store.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

VinLark said:


> Does this pound dilemma mean I can get a discount on the UK steam store.


Actually it means it'd be more expensive


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

We proudly welcome Scottland and Northern Ireland to the European Union.
- President of the European Parliament, 2018.


----------



## grossaffe (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Actually it means it'd be more expensive


If the British prices remain unchanged, then exchanging USD for BP with the current exchange rate would hypothetically make your money go further.  Perhaps Steam is on top of that, though, and will adjust with the exchange rate accordingly.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> If the British prices remain unchanged, then exchanging USD for BP with the current exchange rate would hypothetically make your money go further.  Perhaps Steam is on top of that, though, and will adjust with the exchange rate accordingly.


I guess that's what I assumed they'd do, but maybe that won't be the case


----------



## EmanueleBGN (Jun 24, 2016)

FREEDOM! Great vote, Britons!


----------



## Jao Chu (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> What are you passionate about?...



Well, in my opinion, if i am willing to spend time debating on a gaming forum about something, as opposed to doing my regular tasks of a Friday afternoon, then i must feel quite strongly about it. Which in-turn translates into being passionate somewhat. Perhaps it was the wrong choice of words, but i needed it for the analogy  



TotalInsanity4 said:


> 90% of the time it's because I'm already watching the thread and you comment on it later on down the line. 10% of the time it's because I stumble into the thread from the front page while you're saying something. Don't give yourself that much credit *hon* :^)



Aww, you've even got a pet name for me now? I feel special 



TotalInsanity4 said:


> By the way, you really slickly dodged the question I initially asked, regarding why the in/out referendum was a good idea in your eyes. Don't argue just for the sake of arguing, especially if it isn't productive



Apart from the odd slur about the regressive left and the occasional rant about transgender bathrooms, i don't generally share my political views in the public domain since the world is dominated by left-wing policies and some of them frighten me a touch, especially those policies regarding hate-speech (A.K.A The quashing of the first amendment) which has enabled the police to arrest somebody for speaking their mind on an online platforms. So allow me to don my tin-foil hat here and ask if we could continue the topic of Brexit in PM's?



TotalInsanity4 said:


> I've been perusing Flipboard the last few weeks (and I have a relatively balanced set of sources, I should add. I could probably tune it better for international news, though), and I've heard various reasons why leaving would be a bad idea, but this is legit the first I've heard of it being an issue of race. I guess thank you for giving me that piece of info? I legitimately didn't know it before now



No worries mate, glad I could help  And yes, balanced news sources are the key to being well informed. If somebody were getting their news primarily from Vox, Salon, Buzzfeed, MTV Decoded, wow, they would have a very warped view of the world and current political climate!

I'm on the other side of the political compass, but that doesn't mean i take everything written on Breitbart, Fox News etc. etc. as gospel either. I'm always dubious of everything.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm glad this happened. This will be the best demonstration for nut-jobs of how devestating the results are. Maybe now that the big brake (preventing real reforms) and leech (not paying the same as everybody else: see Britain Rebate) is gone, the other countries can finally make some progress on making Europe more democratic.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Jao Chu said:


> the first amendment


Go back to America plz


In all seriousness though...


Jao Chu said:


> I'm always dubious of everything.


I feel similarly. Although, despite my disdain for the majority of the Left today, at the end of the day I do consider myself center-to-center-left, and I find many Right-wing commentators just as questionable and anti-freedom as Left ones, just in different ways.

Wherever one falls on the compass, the most important thing is for people to think for themselves, and make up their own minds by looking at evidence objectively.


----------



## mudassirul (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Freedom has prevailed.
> 
> View attachment 54004


The Irish and Welsh are next, a free North Ireland and Wales and a broken and divided Kingdom!


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

mudassirul said:


> The Irish and Welsh are next, a free North Ireland and Wales and a broken and divided Kingdom!



Scotland will have another referendum as well. The UK will soon be history.


----------



## rasputin (Jun 24, 2016)

Cameron is resigning.


----------



## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I'm glad this happened. This will be the best demonstration for nut-jobs of how devestating the results are. Maybe now that the big brake (preventing real reforms) and leech (not paying the same as everybody else: see Britain Rebate) is gone, the other countries can finally make some progress on making Europe more democratic.


Devastation? This is pretty bad but it isn't "oh my god next war world III" like the left was saying.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

VinLark said:


> Devastation? This is pretty bad but it isn't "oh my god next war world III" like the left was saying.



I don't know what you're talking about. No one was talking about WW3. It will be devastating in the economical sense as well as for the UK as a whole. Scotland and Northern Ireland will most likely leave the UK to stay in the EU. The UK is history.


----------



## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

EmanueleBGN said:


> FREEDOM! Great vote, Britons!



I am certainly looking forward to the upcoming economic and political instability. That's certainly worth the 'freedom'. Can someone actually explain to me what this 'freedom' will entail?

Gotta say, I'm pretty chuffed I called out Cameron's timeframe. BooYah on that.


----------



## Youkai (Jun 24, 2016)

@Xiphiidae 
look at this :






You said that Germany wants to control all the EU countries trough the EU but than again 1/3 or the people here in Germany seem to want to leave too ... in your logic that would mean those people don't want their own country to be big .... I would say the they are actually just unhappy that the EU does NOT do what the German people would like it to do.

I would never want to leave the EU but I would prefer them to do important things instead of controlling how curved our bananas are allowed to be and forbidding my beloved Linda (potato) and stuff like this ... the EU did a lot of shit for me and wastes a big amount of money for politicians that go to work 1-2 days a week do nothing at all and get 10k€ a month ... still there are benefits.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> @Xiphiidae
> look at this :
> 
> 
> ...


Must you pull out that tired old Banana thing which is not even true anymore?

Yes, the EU needs reforms, but guess who was the big break hindering them?


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Must you pull out that tired old Banana thing which is not even true anymore?
> 
> Yes, the EU needs reforms, but guess who was the big break hindering them?


Well perhaps after 70% UK joins the EU back and the pound becomes as strong as the Venezuelan Bolivar, England will beg its way in again.
(But then they wouldn't hold a strong word anymore)


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> Well perhaps after 70% UK joins the EU back and the pound becomes as strong as the Venezuelan Bolivar, England will beg its way in again.


You know, I've heard that even from some UK politicians. Cameron and his predecessors blaimed their own fuck-ups on the EU for years and took credit for EU archievments.

It's no suprise people followed their advice after decades of EU bashing.

And it's not like this will help their situation in any way. If they want to stay in the common market, they'll have to pay and keep their borders open. It's the rules, and now they'll have to follow them without being part of making them. Ask Norway and Switzerland how that feels.


----------



## WiiUBricker (Jun 24, 2016)

More importantly, if the UK leaves the EU, do you have to pay customs if you import stuff from UK to EU countries?


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> You said that Germany wants to control all the EU countries trough the EU but than again 1/3 or the people here in Germany seem to want to leave too ... in your logic that would mean those people don't want their own country to be big .... I would say the they are actually just unhappy that the EU does NOT do what the German people would like it to do.


1. I never said that, I just said that Germany has the primary influence. 

2. And that doesn't even mean that it benefits the German people. It benefits people like Tusk and Merkel, not to mention the owners of big German businesses. The German people _should_ want to get rid of Merkel and the EU, as they are the ones who are forcing irresponsible migration policy on them, which is what harms the people of Germany the most. Those 1/3 that want out are the smart ones. 




Youkai said:


> the EU did a lot of shit for me and wastes a big amount of money for politicians that go to work 1-2 days a week do nothing at all and get 10k€ a month ... still there are benefits.


Welcome to 'efficient' German bureaucracy.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> 1. I never said that, I just said that Germany has the primary influence.
> 
> 2. And that doesn't even mean that it benefits the German people. It benefits people like Tusk and Merkel, not to mention the owners of big German businesses. The German people _should_ want to get rid of Merkel and the EU, as they are the ones who are forcing irresponsible migration policy on them, which is what harms the people of Germany the most. Those 1/3 that want out are the smart ones.
> 
> ...


I didn't vote for Merkel, but the migrant crisis is not as bad as some media outlets are making it out to be.

By the way, the UK and the other countries threatening to leave the EU because of it are the ones who caused the crisis beginning in colonial times up to the Irak war. It's their mess, really.



WiiUBricker said:


> More importantly, if the UK leaves the EU, do you have to pay customs if you import stuff from UK to EU countries?


Only if they leave the common market, which would be economic suicide. Banks and car manufacturers already said that would make them leave. Production would need a few years to move, but banks could move practically over night.


----------



## Youkai (Jun 24, 2016)

Well even if the banana thing is something old there are still a big lot of things the EU spends way to much money on even though it doesn't make any sense.
http://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...money-pointless-projects-says-Stephen-Pollard
http://www.euractiv.com/section/reg...sted-on-white-elephant-airports-say-auditors/

Well as I said I am pro EU but still seeing millions of Euros being wasted makes me angry as this is a lot more money than I will ever earn in my whole life just thrown out for nothing.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> By the way, the UK and the other countries threatening to leave the EU because of it are the ones who caused the crisis beginning in colonial times up to the Irak war. It's their mess, really.


Last time I checked, Tony Blair isn't PM anymore. It seems pretty ridiculous to me to force the British people to personal sacrifices for something that has nothing to do with them. I don't believe your ordinary British family are the ones who went to fight in Iraq. 

Ah, yes, always blame the colonialism bogeyman; always focus on the past, never the present or future, and always blame the West as being solely responsible for the problems in the Middle and Near East :^) 

And you say 'other countries'. Like who? Sweden? Greece? As far as I know, they were quite against the war in Iraq.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> Well even if the banana thing is something old there are still a big lot of things the EU spends way to much money on even though it doesn't make any sense.
> http://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...money-pointless-projects-says-Stephen-Pollard
> http://www.euractiv.com/section/reg...sted-on-white-elephant-airports-say-auditors/
> 
> Well as I said I am pro EU but still seeing millions of Euros being wasted makes me angry as this is a lot more money than I will ever earn in my whole life just thrown out for nothing.


EVERY form of government is guilty of pork-barrel spending. Citing tabloids and claiming a 400 million people entity has a bigger budget then you on your own hardly gives you any credibility.

Yes, there are big problems, but most of the things the Brexit campaign blamed on the EU were home-made.



Xiphiidae said:


> Last time I checked, Tony Blair isn't PM anymore. It seems pretty ridiculous to me to force the British people to personal sacrifices for something that has nothing to do with them. I don't believe your ordinary British family are the ones who went to fight in Iraq.
> 
> Ah, yes, always blame the colonialism bogeyman; always focus on the past, never the present or future, and always blame the West as being solely responsible for the problems in the Middle and Near East :^)
> 
> And you say 'other countries'. Like who? Sweden? Greece? As far as I know, they were quite against the war in Iraq.


I didn't blame anyone personally, but a country as an entity certainly bears responsibility. Just like I and my family did not commit any crimes during both world wars, I still think my country is responsible.

And I was not only talking about the war in Iraq. Please don't twist my words.


----------



## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

Nice move UK!


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I didn't blame anyone personally, but a country as an entity certainly bears responsibility. Just like I and my family did not commit any crimes during both world wars, I still think my country is responsible.


Even if you believe that (I don't; the Germany that exists now is completely different from the Germany that existed 75 years ago, it would make no sense to force responsibility or blame on modern-day Germany for what happened then), that is still not an argument for forcing the responsibility upon the ordinary working people of Britain; they should not be forced to make personal sacrifices.

I think the individuals actually responsible should hold the moral responsibility; I believe Tony Blair and G.W. Bush probably should be charged for war crimes, but that is no argument for Britain taking in migrants.



Uwabami said:


> And I was not only talking about the war in Iraq. Please don't twist my words.


I'm not saying _only_ the Iraq War, but you mentioned it specifically, and there's little-to-no relationship between Euroscepticism and Middle Eastern involvement, at least from what I can see.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Even if you believe that (I don't; the Germany that exists now is completely different from the Germany that existed 75 years ago, it would make no sense to force responsibility or blame on modern-day Germany for what happened then), that is still not an argument for forcing the responsibility upon the ordinary working people of Britain; they should not be forced to make personal sacrifices.
> 
> I think the individuals hold the moral responsibility; I believe Tony Blair and G.W. Bush probably should be charged for war crimes, but that is no argument for Britain taking in migrants.
> 
> ...


But the UK as a country can't act like this is not at least partly their fault as well.

Speaking of ordenary workers: they'll suffer the most from this. Poor parts of the UK like Cornwall are dependant big time on EU subsidies. I hardly believe a neocon government will step in to make up for all that EU money.

This is the reason Scotland and Northern Ireland will probably leave now by the way, they perceive the EU as a counter weight to the (in their view) too conservative UK government.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Speaking if ordenary workers: they'll suffer the most from this. Poor parts of the UK like Cornwall are dependant big time on EU subsidies. I hardly believe a neocon government will step in to make up for all that EU money.


Poor people in the UK survived before the EU and they will survive after, just as they do in somewhere like Australia. If you truly believe that the UK cannot protect its citizens without a supra-national entity controlling them, then I don't know what to tell you. Also, it's worth mentioning that generally richer areas voted Remain (e.g. London), whereas poorer areas (at least outside Scotland) tended to vote Leave (this isn't a super-strong connection, but there is a correlation).

At any rate, don't be so focused on the short-term; the Tories won't be in power for ever.



Uwabami said:


> This is the reason Scotland and Ireland will probably leave now by the way, they perceive the EU as a counter weight to the (in their view) too conservative UK government.


Then that is their decision. I would just vote for a more Left-leaning party.


----------



## EmanueleBGN (Jun 24, 2016)

emigre said:


> I am certainly looking forward to the upcoming economic and political instability. That's certainly worth the 'freedom'. Can someone actually explain to me what this 'freedom' will entail?
> 
> Gotta say, I'm pretty chuffed I called out Cameron's timeframe. BooYah on that.


so, the capitalistic economy is more important than Democracy and People? Remove directly the elections and let the bankers and the EU dictators to decide for us (like in Italy that the last three prime ministers are dictators unelected)


----------



## Youkai (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Poor people in the UK survived before the EU and they will survive after



lol poor people survived hundred of years ago as well but I wouldn't want to go back only because it somehow worked XD


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Poor people in the UK survived before the EU and they will survive after, just as they do in somewhere like Australia. If you truly believe that the UK cannot protect its citizens without a supra-national entity controlling them, then I don't know what to tell you. Also, it's worth mentioning that generally richer areas voted Remain (e.g. London), whereas poorer areas (at least outside Scotland) tended to vote Leave (this isn't a super-strong connection, but there is a correlation).
> 
> At any rate, don't be so focused on the short-term; the Tories won't be in power for ever.
> 
> ...


I didn't say they won't survive I'm not someone for horror scenarios, but realistically, they will be set back. Rising prices for everyday commodities are certainly a big part of that.

The maps I saw showed that rich parts (like London) were for BREMAIN and poorer parts like Cornwall and the North were for the BREXIT. This was an emotional decision, not a rational one.



EmanueleBGN said:


> so, the capitalistic economy is more important than Democracy and People? Remove directly the elections and let the bankers and the EU dictators to decide for us (like in Italy that the last three prime ministers are dictators unelected)


This sounds a lot like an Italian problem, not like a European problem. But I agree that the people should be able to elect the commission directly. There is a lot to be done in the EU, but people tend to blame all their problems on it, when in reality, they benefit greatly from it.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> lol poor people survived hundred of years ago as well but I wouldn't want to go back only because it somehow worked


Read the rest of my post. The EU is not a prerequisite for giving poor people assistance.



Uwabami said:


> I didn't say they won't survive I'm not someone for horror scenarios, but realistically, they will be set back. Rising prices for everyday commodities are certainly a big part of that.


Because slightly cheaper food for a short while is more important than democracy, freedom and being able to decide how to live your own life? See @EmanueleBGN's post.



Uwabami said:


> There is a lot to be done in the EU, but people tend to blame all their problems on it, when in reality, they benefit greatly from it.


That must be why four of the five richest countries in Europe aren't in the EU :^)



Uwabami said:


> The maps I saw showed that rich parts (like London) were for BREMAIN and poorer parts like Cornwall and the North were for the BREXIT. This was an emotional decision, not a rational one.


Ah, yes, because you're an omniscient god and you can read everyone's minds and perfectly know their motivations, and it just happened that the people with whom _you_ agree were the correct, intelligent, rational people, whereas those with whom you disagree were the stupid, emotional people, of course.

Please, with no due respect whatsoever, get over yourself.


----------



## Pleng (Jun 24, 2016)

The margin was so slim, and with Scotland an N Ireland wishing to remain, I really dont think that the Kingdom deserves to call itself United any more


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Read the rest of my post. The EU is not a prerequisite for giving poor people assistance.
> 
> 
> Because slightly cheaper food for a short while is more important than democracy, freedom and being able to decide how to live your own life? See @EmanueleBGN's post.
> ...


Four of the five richest countries, that's interesting. Who are you refering to besides Norway and Switzerland (and even they are in the common market)?

Regarding freedom: I respect their vote and I said many times already I even appreciate them leaving, because they never really liked being part of the EU (well, young people seem to like the EU it seems).

And no, I'm not a dictator nor a god. If people base their decision admittedly on how it feels instead of cold hart facts, it an emotional decision. A valid decision that has to be respected nontheless.


----------



## cearp (Jun 24, 2016)

WiiUBricker said:


> More importantly, if the UK leaves the EU, do you have to pay customs if you import stuff from UK to EU countries?


the uk can be out of the eu but still have agreements with other countries, i doubt things like mail and travel will be that affected.
although maybe they will be, we will see.


----------



## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

EmanueleBGN said:


> so, the capitalistic economy is more important than Democracy and People? Remove directly the elections and let the bankers and the EU dictators to decide for us (like in Italy that the last three prime ministers are dictators unelected)



No disrespect bro, but the big stuff like Iraq, healthy system reforms, education reforms, austerity in Britain was decided by our democratically elected governments. Those things don't change with Brexit.

Can someone please explain to me how my new found freedom works? What can iI do which I couldn't do before?



Uwabami said:


> The maps I saw showed that rich parts (like London) were for BREMAIN and poorer parts like Cornwall and the North were for the BREXIT. This was an emotional decision, not a rational one.



I agree. I think in recent the already exiting mistrust in the 'elites' has intensified due the lack of economic recovery, immigration and dysfunctional housing market. Seeing Cornwall vote leave was really interesting because IIRC they get a lot of EU development money, money they wouldn't get from central government. The British political establishment needs to have a long hard look at itself in the mirror.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Four of the five richest countries, that's interesting. Who are you refering to besides Norway and Switzerland (and even they are in the common market)?


Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Monaco (although Monaco's status is unique; it's not a formal member of the EU but participates somewhat). 

And yes, they're members of European Economic Area. But, of course, Brexit has nothing to do with the EEA, and just shows that EU membership is by no means a prerequisite for trade. 



Uwabami said:


> And no, I'm not a dictator nor a god. If people base their decision admittedly on how it feels instead of cold hart facts, it an emotional decision. A valid decision that has to be respected nontheless.


You do not know anyone's motivations. You do not get to decide what is chiefly emotional and what is chiefly rational.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Monaco (although Monaco's status is unique; it's not a formal member of the EU but participates somewhat).
> 
> And yes, they're members of European Economic Area. But, of course, Brexit has nothing to do with the EEA, and just shows that EU membership is by no means a prerequisite for trade.
> 
> ...


Lichtenstein is mainly represented by Switzerland in many foreign relations. And they are very small, as is Monaco. Does the Vatican count as well? Yes, they are rich per capita, but as I country, they don't have that big of an impact.

No, I'm telling you what my perception is, exercising my freedom of speech. In no way did I claim to know the only valid truth. Please stop making me out as some kind of extremist.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> No, I'm telling you what my perception is, exercising my freedom of speech. In no way did I claim to know the only valid truth. Please stop making me out as some kind of extremist.


You said: 


Uwabami said:


> This was an emotional decision, not a rational one.



That's not "telling me what my perception is", it's making a claim. Either provide evidence to back it up or admit that it's baseless.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> You said:
> 
> 
> That's not "telling me what my perception is", it's making a claim. Either provide evidence to back it up or admit that it's baseless.


I saw a few documentaries on TV were they interviewed people on the issue. Also, I have friends in the UK who claimed as much as well.

Everything I say here is my personal opinion, as long as I don't say otherwise. Do I have to make the obvious clear every time? I'm neither the pope nor the World President - I'm just telling you my view on the subject. I never claimed other people's views are invalid.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I saw a few documentaries on TV were they interviewed people on the issue. Also, I have friends in the UK who claimed as much as well.
> 
> Everything I say here is my personal opinion, as long as I don't say otherwise. Do I have to make the obvious clear every time? I'm neither the pope nor the World President - I'm just telling you my view on the subject. I never claimed other people's views are invalid.


Then don't say "This was an emotional decision, not a rational one.", say "To me it seems that the decision was more emotional, although I have little-to-nothing to support this _feeling_ I have."

Once again, you do not know people's motivations, and don't pretend that you do.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Then don't say "This was an emotional decision, not a rational one.", say "To me it seems that the decision was more emotional, although I have little-to-nothing to support this _feeling_ I have."
> 
> Once again, you do not know people's motivations, and don't pretend that you do.


You're nitpicking here. It's more than obvious this is my personal opinion unless I state the opposite. Your arguments fall flat, so you're sidelining the argument. Cheap eristics, nothing more.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> You're nitpicking here. It's more than obvious this is my personal opinion unless I state the opposite. Your arguments fall flat, so you're sidelining the argument. Cheap eristics, nothing more.


Then it's clear you do not know the difference between stating an opinion and making a claim. 

Good job providing no evidence as to why my "arguments fall flat" or how I'm "sidelining the argument", by the way :^) 


I think I've made my case for Brexit well enough, and you're free to disagree, so I don't think there's much more to contribute lest we descend into bickering. At the end of the day, Democracy has prevailed, and whining about it won't change anything. Have a good one _b


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Then it's clear you do not know the difference between stating an opinion and making a claim.
> 
> Good job providing no evidence as to why my "arguments fall flat" or how I'm "sidelining the argument", by the way :^)
> 
> ...


Yes I did, several times. As I said, you're using cheap eristics. Statistics by several institutes are supporting my claim but I'm sure you're not interested in that - you already made up your mind.

And I don't know where your problem is - I'm IN FAVOUR of the Brexit.


----------



## Flame (Jun 24, 2016)

I blame the Right wing. Buch of fucking nut jobs.


----------



## raulpica (Jun 24, 2016)

emigre said:


> Can someone please explain to me how my new found freedom works? What can iI do which I couldn't do before?


You're now free to find more jobs! Those bloody immigrants won't be able to steal them anymore!

[/s]


----------



## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

raulpica said:


> You're now free to find more jobs! Those bloody immigrants won't be able to steal them anymore, now!
> 
> [/s]



Those dirty muslim polish immigrants have been taking my jobs, benefits and women.


----------



## raulpica (Jun 24, 2016)

emigre said:


> Those dirty muslim polish immigrants have been taking my jobs, benefits and women.


With their weird foods and dressage! Pass me some <generic dish with minced meat and potatoes>, matey!


----------



## Flame (Jun 24, 2016)

The older generation once again handing the youth / younger generation a future they do not want. Hopeless.


99% of people who voted to stay will die in 2 years cause of old age. the youth will now suffer.



thanks leave people.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Yes I did, several times. As I said, you're using cheap eristics. Statistics by several institutes are supporting my claim but I'm sure you're not interested in that - you already made up your mind.


As I said, I do not want to descend into bickering, as much as you might like to. I'm that that "statistics" from several "institutes" support your "claim", but there are just as many 'experts' who would draw the opposite conclusions. 

And it's quite the opposite; my mind is always open and I'm always prepared to change it in light of new evidence. I suggest you don't take everything you read as gospel, and think for yourself. 

As I said before, I have no desire to continue this any further, as we will just be going in circles.



Flame said:


> The older generation once again handing the youth / younger generation a future they do not want. Hopeless.
> 
> 99% of people who voted to stay will die in 2 years cause of old age. the youth will now suffer.
> 
> thanks leave people.


"Democracy is only good when people like me are voting! Anyone unlike me is a bad person! Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong!"


----------



## Depravo (Jun 24, 2016)

raulpica said:


> With their weird foods and *dressage*!


Isn't that making a horse walk sideways and stuff?



Spoiler: Dressage


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> As I said, I do not want to descend into bickering, as much as you might like to. I'm that that "statistics" from several "institutes" support your "claim", but there are just as many 'experts' who would draw the opposite conclusions.
> 
> And it's quite the opposite; my mind is always open and I'm always prepared to change it in light of new evidence. I suggest you don't take everything you read as gospel, and think for yourself.
> 
> ...


YOU'RE the one saying anyone not supporting your opinion is an extremist dictator, I NEVER SAID ANYTHING to that effect. I'm sure you're either trolling or a child now, thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## raulpica (Jun 24, 2016)

Depravo said:


> Isn't that making a horse walk sideways and stuff?


I was mocking those people that want to speak using fancy words they don't know anything of.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> YOU'RE the one saying anyone not supporting your opinion is an extremist dictator, I NEVER SAID ANYTHING to that effect. I'm sure you're either trolling or a child now, thanks for clearing that up.


Please don't put words like that in my mouth; I never mentioned the words "extremist" or "dictator", I merely said that it's unjustifiable to claim that you're perfectly aware of everyone's motivations. I'm not saying that Leave or Remain is more 'correct', as I cannot see the future or read people's minds, I just personally see Brexit as a desirable thing because I value a particular notion of sovereignty, that's all.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Please don't put words like that in my mouth; I never mentioned the words "extremist" or "dictator", I merely said that it's unjustifiable to claim that you're perfectly aware of everyone's motivations. I'm not saying that Leave or Remain is more 'correct', as I cannot see the future or read people's minds, I just personally see Brexit as a desirable thing because I value a particular notion of sovereignty, that's all.


And I favour the Brexit because I believe it finally gives us the chance for big reforms in the EU without Britain's disruptions. We are in dire need of more democratic processes in the EU.

And you started putting words in my mouth. I was just paraphrasing.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> And I favour the Brexit because I believe it finally gives us the chance for big reforms in the EU without Britain's disruptions. We are in dire need of more democratic processes in the EU.


Fair enough, we agree but for entirely opposite reasons then. 



Uwabami said:


> And you started putting words in my mouth. I was just paraphrasing.


I didn't put any words in anyone's mouth. Maybe I was just 'paraphrasing' too :^)


----------



## Flame (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> "Democracy is only good when people like me are voting! Anyone unlike me is a bad person! Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong!"



1st I am a Brit. im pissed as fuck. Don't push it.

2nd. Did you read what I wrote? 

you live in down under. I know the type of person who voted in the UK, being that I live here is: Old. far right wing.





funny didn't the Turks vote to invade Cyprus by elected people in a Democracy?


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Flame said:


> 1st I am a Brit. im pissed as fuck. Don't push it.
> 
> you live in down under. I know the type of person who voted in the UK, being that I live here is: Old. far right wing.


Maybe you should have tried to convince some of the evil old people to vote Remain then :^)



Flame said:


> funny didn't the Turks vote to invade Cyprus by elected people in a Democracy?


Yes, and now the EU wants Turkey to be a member despite them illegally occupying the land of another EU nation and having committed acts of ethnic cleansing against them. The EU sounds very moral.

At any rate, I don't remember ever saying that Democracy makes any action justifiable. Nice try though.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Maybe you should have tried to convince some of the evil old people to vote Remain then :^)
> 
> 
> Yes, and now the EU wants Turkey to be a member despite them illegally occupying the land of another EU nation and having committed acts of ethnic cleansing against them.
> ...


NOBODY wants them to join in the near future. It was an option before Erdogan became president, because for a long time, Turkey was on a good way. Now this option is off the table for a long time to come. There are clear benchmarks for potential new members.

And old people are fucking with young people's future everywhere. Part of the problem is that old people are voting and many young people are not.


----------



## Flame (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Maybe you should have tried to convince some of the evil old people to vote Remain then :^)
> 
> 
> Yes, and now the EU wants Turkey to be a member despite them illegally occupying the land of another EU nation and having committed acts of ethnic cleansing against them.
> ...




occupying? For centuries it was the Turks. In the 1900's it become Cyprus. I wonder who made it Cyprus ... *cough*Britain*cough*



Didn't the turks invade to save they people ethnic cleansing against them. Why would they invade a nation which doesn't have jack? :^)


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> NOBODY wants them to join in the near future. It was an option before Erdogan became president, because for a long time, Turkey was on a good way. Now this option is off the table for a long time to come. There are clear benchmarks for potential new members.


I hope so.



Uwabami said:


> And old people are fucking with young people's future everywhere. Part of the problem is that old people are voting and many young people are not.


In Australia, voting in elections and referendums is compulsory, and where I live, young people are infinitely more interested and active in politics than old people. The UK and Europe seem like a very different experience than being here.



Flame said:


> occupying? For centuries it was the Turks. In the 1900's it become Cyprus. I wonder who made it Cyprus ... *cough*Britain*cough*


Yes, but Hellenic people had been living there and continued to live there since before Ottoman invasion, much like they did in Greece (which only became independent in the 1800s), and it's because of that connection to Britain that my father and his parents were able to emigrate to Australia in the first place.



Flame said:


> Didn't the turks invade to save they people. Why would they invade a nation which doesn't have jack?


The same reason why they committed genocide against the Arminians and the Hellenic people in Cappadocia and Anatolia, I imagine.


----------



## Flame (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> The same reason why they committed genocide against the Arminians and the Hellenic people in Cappadocia and Anatolia, I imagine.





You are just pulling things from your arse now.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Flame said:


> You are just pulling things from your arse now.


And a few pages back he argued that Germany shouldn't be made responsible for past crimes.


----------



## Flame (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> And a few pages back he argued that Germany shouldn't be made responsible for past crimes.




Your okay. Uwabami.

I hope to see you around GBA temp more.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Flame said:


> You are just pulling things from your arse now.


Armenian Genocide

Greek Genocide

Turkish Invasion of Cyprus

"Turkey was found guilty by the European Commission of Human Rights for displacement of persons, deprivation of liberty, ill treatment, deprivation of life and deprivation of possessions. The Turkish policy of violently forcing a third of the island's Greek population from their homes in the occupied North, preventing their return and settling Turks from the mainland there is considered an example of ethnic cleansing."

Of course, I'm not saying that Greeks/Greek Cypriots were 100% victims or without blame, but nor were the Turkish people.



Uwabami said:


> And a few pages back he argued that Germany shouldn't be made responsible for past crimes.


That's because current Germany is not Nazi Germany, and present day Germany fully acknowledges the horror that was the Holocaust. Current Turkey is the Turkey that invaded Cyprus, and continues to deny the existence of any genocides committed by the Republic of Turkey or the late Ottoman Empire.


Good job on the two of you justifying and/or ignoring ethnic cleaning (and perhaps genocide) for the sake of supporting the EU though, you must be very morally upstanding people.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Flame said:


> Your okay. Uwabami.
> 
> I hope to see you around GBA temp more.


Thanks. And I hope the UK will rejoin the EU once the UKIP people were proven wrong and the EU is reformed. The EU without Britain isn't the same.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm hoping that UK leaves that cesspool of the EU and then other European countries start doing the same.


----------



## Flame (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Thanks. And I hope the UK will rejoin the EU once the UKIP people were proven wrong and the EU is reformed. The EU without Britain isn't the same.








 


its going to be cold and rainy few decades ... I hope to see you on the other side of the rainbow.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Armenian Genocide
> 
> Greek Genocide
> 
> ...


You are correct on their handling of their past. But I still don't like how you try to destroy others in an argument with false claims.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> false claims


Please explain.


----------



## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

k, this thread is descending into something.


----------



## Gingerbread Crumb (Jun 24, 2016)




----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Please explain.


Like how you claimed I was dismissing everyone else's opinion when I did no such thing? Or accused me if being a totalitarian?

Or how you just accused me of being OK with ethnic cleansing?


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Like how you claimed I was dismissing everyone else's opinion when I did no such thing? Or accused me if being a totalitarian?


I did neither of the things you're accusing me of. Evidence please.



Uwabami said:


> Or how you just accused me of being OK with ethnic cleansing?


I didn't say that you were okay with it, I suggested that it's possible that you intentionally overlooked it for the sake of supporting the EU. I said what I said because I brought up ethnic cleansing committed by Turkey, to which Flame responded with "You are just pulling things from your arse now", which you seemingly agreed with. Did you not agree with his response?


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> I did neither of the things you're accusing me of. Evidence please.
> 
> 
> I didn't say that you were okay with it, I suggested that it's possible that you intentionally overlooked it for the sake of supporting the EU. I said what I said because I brought up ethnic cleansing committed by Turkey, to which Flame responded with "You are just pulling things from your arse now", which you seemingly agreed with. Did you not agree with his response?


I'm completely conviced you're trolling now - welcome to my ignore list.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I'm completely conviced you're trolling now - welcome to my ignore list.


I'm not trolling at all. Making light of ethnic cleansing is something I, unsurprisingly, take seriously.

If you cannot provide evidence for the claims of me that you're making, then I don't know what to tell you. Feel free to ignore me, you won't be missed.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Scotland will have another referendum as well. The UK will soon be history.



Scotland has had their chance. Tuff shit.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> Scotland has had their chance. Tuff shit.


Oh, they just announced they'll try again a few hours ago.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Oh, they just announced they'll try again a few hours ago.



Doesn't mean they will get one. They just want to leech on eu's money and don't get the shit that comes with it because there is no work or money to be made in Scotland for all the immigrants. Some places never learn.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> Doesn't mean they will get one. They just want to leech on eu's money and don't get the shit that comes with it because there is no work or money to be made in Scotland for all the immigrants. Some places never learn.


Oh, I think they'll get one. And the EU just might take them in just to spite the Tories and UKIP.


----------



## mustafag32g (Jun 24, 2016)

They left LOOL, their economy is going to get fuked! They will never be a part of Europe! ASS****


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

I wonder why the Germans haven't protested to have Merkel kicked out of the govt because she's one of the reasons why Europe is the way it is now.

#LetsMakeEuropeGreatAgain

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mustafag32g said:


> They left LOOL, *their economy is going to get fuked*! They will never be a part of Europe! ASS****


Don't you live in Argentina as per the flag on your profile? That's a bit ironic. lol


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> I wonder why the Germans haven't protested to have Merkel kicked out of the govt because she's one of the reasons why Europe is the way it is now.
> 
> #LetsMakeEuropeGreatAgain


There are protests against her by a very vocal minority. We too have racists like you.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> There are protests against her by a very vocal minority. We too have racists like your.


Why am I a racist?


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Why am I a racist?


Your hashtag is a very clear indicator. And your critique of Merkel (whom I don't like myself, but for other reasons) is clearly directed at her migrant policy.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Your hashtag is a very clear indicator.


No. I've never had a problem with anyone but Europe needs to have control on who is allowed to enter each and every country. This makes me a racist now?



Uwabami said:


> And your critic of Merkel (whom I don't like myself, but for other reasons) is clearly directed at her migrant policy.


Merkel is a bitch and she's trying to destroy Europe.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> No. I've never had a problem with anyone but Europe needs to have control on who is allowed to enter each and every country. This makes me a racist now?
> 
> 
> Merkel is a bitch and she's trying to destroy Europe.



Haha, yeah, right. It's not poor governance in other countries. The single problem Europe faces in these times is Angela Merkel, empress and dictator of Europe.

Must be nice to live in such a small world where every problem has an easy answer. Doesn't matter if it's true or not.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Don't you live in Argentina as per the flag on your profile? That's a bit ironic. lol


I don't know about him but I'm Argentinian as my flag says, and I also think this will not only destroy UK economy, but also make UK a memory of the past. 
I already stated it some posts ago. Scotland and Northern Ireland will be proudly welcomed to the EU.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Haha, yeah, right. It's not poor governance in other countries. The single problem Europe faces in these times is Angela Merkel, empress and dictator of Europe.
> 
> Must be nice to live in such a small world where every problem has an easy answer. Doesn't matter if it's true or not.


You think Portugal doesn't have its issues? I wish.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> I don't know about him but I'm Argentinian as my flag says, and I also think this will not only destroy UK economy, but also make UK a memory of the past.
> I already stated it some posts ago. Scotland and Northern Ireland will be proudly welcomed to the EU.



They will - and so will the rest of the UK once they change their mind.


----------



## Gingerbread Crumb (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Please explain what he means by this then. And don't play dumb. This is painfully obvious.


There have been some rapist and criminals getting through after the gates were open. Does that mean all? Nope of course not but some actually are like that because of the things they've been taught as children in their countries. Is this racist though? No it isn't because like I said before not all of them are like this but some of them are. So when he says that he means good they should keep their trash he means they should keep the garbage that got mixed in with the good people that actually were seeking refuge.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> You think Portugal doesn't have its issues? I wish.



That was sarcasm. People keep blaming everything on Merkel. First they bullied her into taking a leading role and now that she reluctantly did, they call her a dictator. Don't get me wrong, I don't like what she or her party stands for, but this accusation game is childish.

Nobody forced Greece and Portugal to make so much debt. And it felt really nice to be insulted as a country for helping you out even though the treaties clearly forbid it. Thanks for that.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

Gingerbread Crumb said:


> There have been some rapist and criminals getting through after the gates were open. Does that mean all? Nope of course not but some actually are like that because of the things they've been taught as children in their countries. Is this racist though? No it isn't because like I said before not all of them are like this but some of them are. So when he says that he means good they should keep their trash he means they should keep the garbage that got mixed in with the good people that actually were seeking refuge.



Uwabami called me a racist for no good reason so there's not much point trying to reason with him.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Gingerbread Crumb said:


> There have been some rapist and criminals getting through after the gates were open. Does that mean all? Nope of course not but some actually are like that because of the things they've been taught as children in their countries. Is this racist though? No it isn't because like I said before not all of them are like this but some of them are. So when he says that he means good they should keep their trash he means they should keep the garbage that got mixed in with the good people that actually were seeking refuge.



He didn't say it like that, he was generalizing. You made this distinction. And calling people garbage, no matter what they did is wrong in my opinion, you may see things differently. We may agree on calling actual, proven rapists and murderers that.



Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Uwabami called me a racist for no good reason so there's not much point trying to reason with him.



You quoted Trump and otherwise implied you're not that keen on foreigners. This doesn't shed a good light on you - but maybe you "misspoke", as people in your situation usually claim.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Gingerbread Crumb said:


> It seems like you're right there are just some people who won't listen no matter how many time you tell them something is clearly wrong or fishy. I know people don't like being wrong but only time will show them this was the right decision.



Pot meet Kettle.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Uwabami called me a racist for no good reason so there's not much point trying to reason with him.



I gave you a reason:



Uwabami said:


> Your hashtag is a very clear indicator. And your critique of Merkel (whom I don't like myself, but for other reasons) is clearly directed at her migrant policy.



Is your attention span that short?


----------



## mustafag32g (Jun 24, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> I wonder why the Germans haven't protested to have Merkel kicked out of the govt because she's one of the reasons why Europe is the way it is now.
> 
> #LetsMakeEuropeGreatAgain
> 
> ...


I livet in Denmark bro  not Argentina god damn, just picked a flag P


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Is your attention span that short?


And I explained you were wrong.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> And I explained you were wrong.



That's your opinion. You were citing a racist and your rhetoric didn't sound like your stance on foreigners is a nice one. If you really aren't a racist, you're making it hard to notice.


----------



## Lia (Jun 24, 2016)

Well. We fucked up. I'M MOVING TO IRELAND BOYS, WHO'S WITH ME?


----------



## Touko White (Jun 24, 2016)

I want to move to japan with someone I know irl. ^^
dunno what its like there though.


----------



## Joe88 (Jun 24, 2016)

Touko White said:


> I want to move to japan with someone I know irl. ^^
> dunno what its like there though.


Not that best idea as japan is very xenophobic.


----------



## Touko White (Jun 24, 2016)

Joe88 said:


> Not that best idea as japan is very xenophobic.


oh, ok... :/


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Joe88 said:


> Not that best idea as japan is very xenophobic.



Depends, they mainly hate people from other south-east asian countries. And many people get friendlier once they know you're not from the US. I think they still bear some grudge...


----------



## Touko White (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Depends, they mainly hate people from other south-east asian countries. And many people get friendlier once they know you're not from the US. I think they still bear some grudge...


well we don't want to pour into there country all at once like we accuse others of doing


----------



## Lia (Jun 24, 2016)

Touko White said:


> well we don't want to pour into there country all at once like we accuse others of doing


Come to Ireland with me o_o


----------



## Touko White (Jun 24, 2016)

Zelock said:


> Come to Ireland with me o_o


might be an idea. my dad came from there.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

Touko White said:


> might be an idea. my dad came from there.



And your team may end up staying longer in the Euro Cup if you move to Ireland


----------



## Touko White (Jun 24, 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/The-UK-should-have-stayed-in-the-EU-630889727061307/?fref=ts

I made this btw
probabley won't post anything from it


----------



## Gingerbread Crumb (Jun 24, 2016)




----------



## Haloman800 (Jun 24, 2016)

Press F to pay respects


Spoiler


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

Touko White said:


> well we don't want to pour into there country all at once like we accuse others of doing


Yeah, funny how it always seems ok when you're the one doing it


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

Zelock said:


> Well. We fucked up. I'M MOVING TO IRELAND BOYS, WHO'S WITH ME?





Zelock said:


> Come to Ireland with me o_o


And as an additional bonus, enjoy finally some good beer and steak.


----------



## DKB (Jun 24, 2016)

lol 

this thread is edgy


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

DKB said:


> lol
> 
> this thread is edgy



It's a peice of history


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## Depravo (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> It's a peice of history


So is the Titanic.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

Depravo said:


> So is the Titanic.


You mean UK will sink?


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 24, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> That's your opinion. You were citing a racist and your rhetoric didn't sound like your stance on foreigners is a nice one. If you really aren't a racist, you're making it hard to notice.









I'm just not going to bother with you anymore.


----------



## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> You mean UK will sink?



Nope, the quality of this thread is sinking.


----------



## bitjacker (Jun 24, 2016)

The eu was a really dumb idea in the first place.


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## Youkai (Jun 24, 2016)

seeing this is so sad and actually makes me angry ...
The young people who have to life with the decision wanted to stay but those 65+ who might die soon anyway forced the brexit on the young people who would have preffered their future within the European Union


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## Touko White (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> View attachment 54047  seeing this is so sad and actually makes me angry ...
> The young people who have to life with the decision wanted to stay but those 65+ who might die soon anyway forced the brexit on the young people who would have preffered their future within the European Union


I'm just going to quote from my sister:



			
				Sophie Dignam said:
			
		

> So not only am I now living in a country where over half the population believe in the vile campaigns from Nigel Farage, and blame 'immigrants' for the problems in their lives that they're too lazy to take control of... but this half of the population have now made it 10000% harder for me to ever move away from them and work abroad



She's 18, by the way. 

Here's a comment I wrote on the post:



			
				me said:
			
		

> It's true, though. If people really believe immigrants are the problem to everything (reminds me of Hitler!) then really, people like that should be thrown under a bus. Sure you get bad people come here for bad things but it doesn't mean single out every country except your own


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

Youkai said:


> View attachment 54047  seeing this is so sad and actually makes me angry ...
> The young people who have to life with the decision wanted to stay but those 65+ who might die soon anyway forced the brexit on the young people who would have preffered their future within the European Union


Yes, it is sad. And, TBH, I really don't think BREXIT will ever happen.
The referendum is not binding, and given these results probably there wil be yet another referendum next year or so.
The only thing this stupidity will have achieved is shaking the markets, and making the whole world economy a little worse in the short term, specially for the British.
In the end, when they don't BREXIT, they will notice the lack of meaning of the bad time they forced upon themselves.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

It's a hard pill to swallow when you don't win and 'think' you are right, but don't worry, the country will be run correctly now


----------



## Depravo (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> but don't worry, the country will be run correctly now


The naivety in that statement is genuinely staggering and that's NOTHING to do with EU membership.


----------



## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> It's a hard pill to swallow when you don't win and 'think' you are right, but don't worry, the country will be run correctly now



You are aware we still have a Tory government, right? With a Tory party in actual civil war, right?


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

by correct i do me without outsiders interfering, either way this topic should be locked now.. we have made our decision.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



emigre said:


> You are aware we still have a Tory government, right? With a Tory party in actual civil war, right?



yup i voted them in.


----------



## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> by correct i do me without outsiders interfering, either way this topic should be locked now.. we have made our decision.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



I mean this in the sweetest way but based on your posts, I think you're actually politically illiterate.


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

emigre said:


> I mean this in the sweetest way but based on your posts, I think you're actually politically illiterate.



Me and all the others who voted and won must all be crazies, that know absolutely nothing.


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## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> Me and all the others who voted and won must all be crazies, *that know absolutely nothing*.



With you, that seems very true.


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

emigre said:


> With you, that seems very true.








Here you go, there should be enough to go around.


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## emigre (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> Here you go, there should be enough to go around.



Ah another insightful contribution from yourself.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

Well... It is getting even sadder I feel it for you.
Coming from a country of assholes that don't learn and fall once and again into the lies of populists and demagogues, suffering their stupidity once and again, I have already lost faith in "democracy", and in people.
Ugh... good luck.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> Here you go, there should be enough to go around.


You do realize that is tears as in "your hair won't tear" and not "there will be no more tears in your eyes," right?

I feel as though that adds to the irony of all of your previous statements


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## Depravo (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You do realize that is tears as in "your hair won't tear" and not "there will be no more tears in your eyes," right?
> 
> I feel as though that adds to the irony of all of your previous statements


I'm afraid in this case the advertising slogan does indeed refer to crying tears from the eyes. It's the only thing he's got right so far.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 24, 2016)

Depravo said:


> I'm afraid in this case the advertising slogan does indeed refer to crying tears from the eyes. It's the only thing he's got right so far.


Are you sure? I'm fairly certain it's a marketing ploy that's written to be intentionally confusing


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## Seriel (Jun 24, 2016)

(And this is an example of why you do not bring up politics on an online forum...)


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## Arras (Jun 24, 2016)

Honestly, I have no idea what to think about this whole thing - and neither do most people who voted Leave as far as I can tell. Hoo boy.


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## vayanui8 (Jun 24, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Are you sure? I'm fairly certain it's a marketing ploy that's written to be intentionally confusing


Its Baby shampoo thats supposed to not hurt if it gets in their eyes


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

vayanui8 said:


> Its Baby shampoo thats supposed to not hurt if it gets in their eyes


Well, at least babies won't cry while the UK falls apart. /s


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

They had david beckham and all the other knowledgable people calling for the UK to remain, what could of gone wrong


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## Lia (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> They had david beckham and all the other knowledgable people calling for the UK to remain, what could of gone wrong


52% of people in the UK have an IQ lower than 20. That's what went wrong.


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## sarkwalvein (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> They had david beckham and all the other knowledgable people calling for the UK to remain, what could of gone wrong


For the sake of the Queen,
COULD HAVE!

PS: Sorry, it gets me frustrated when I see native speakers kill the language.


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

Italy, France and the Dutch will leave the EU next.


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## Lia (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> Italy, France and the Dutch will leave the EU next.


Please no.


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## Depravo (Jun 24, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> For the sake of the Queen,
> COULD HAVE!
> 
> PS: Sorry, it gets me frustrated when I see native speakers kill the language.


*LIKE! LIKE! LIKE! LIKE! LIKE!*


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 24, 2016)

im done with this topic now,


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## Deleted User (Jun 24, 2016)

This thread is turning into a circlejerk.


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## Uwabami (Jun 24, 2016)

mech said:


> im done with this topic now,


Hey that's the guy who went back on is promise that the £350 Million a week not going to the EU (as if) would be spend on the NHS, right?

He's the King of Trolls!


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## cearp (Jun 25, 2016)

i can understand accepting refugees, but why the uk never really means tested people coming in, like australia does, is beyond me.
sure immigrants cannot be the excuse for everything, but in a small country like the uk, it doesn't need more people that can't really help.
some places really are unrecognizable, it's not just like your 'china town' that some countries have, but in the uk there are litarally big areas of just foreign people, to the native pale uk people, of course this is uncomfortable that other people are in a way, taking over areas of your country, no matter how small or isolated with regards to the big picture of the whole country.

so i can completely understand that some people want to try and put an end to it.


----------



## Viri (Jun 25, 2016)

Spoiler


----------



## Armadillo (Jun 25, 2016)

cearp said:


> i can understand accepting refugees, but why the uk never really means tested people coming in, like australia does, is beyond me.



We have a points system for people coming in from outside the EEA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)

If you mean for people coming from within, well, you can't, free movement. Which is apparently why majority voted to leave.


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## cearp (Jun 25, 2016)

Armadillo said:


> We have a points system for people coming in from outside the EEA.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points-based_immigration_system_(United_Kingdom)
> 
> If you mean for people coming from within, well, you can't, free movement. Which is apparently why majority voted to leave.


sure i mean points for inside eea, but yeah i guess that takes defeats of the point of being a member 
but i can't imagine why motivated hopeful people WOULDN'T move from a poorer eea country to a richer one... if people are willing to risk life and limb to travel from warn torn countries to try and get into the uk, why wouldn't people from poorer eea countries do it? (and they do, the uk had a cap on romanians and bulgarians for 7 years i think)
but there has to be more of a restriction, which sure, the eu doesn't like.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

cearp said:


> sure i mean points for inside eea, but yeah i guess that takes defeats of the point of being a member
> but i can't imagine why motivated hopeful people WOULDN'T move from a poorer eea country to a richer one... if people are willing to risk life and limb to travel from warn torn countries to try and get into the uk, why wouldn't people from poorer eea countries do it? (and they do, the uk had a cap on romanians and bulgarians for 7 years i think)
> but there has to be more of a restriction, which sure, the eu doesn't like.


That's the funny part: If they stay in the common market (which they will), they'll still have to pay their member fees and they'll still have to follow the Schengen treaty (free movement) - only difference: they can't participate in the rule making process anymore.

Isn't that funny? Dumb populists fucking over a whole country by lying to other dumb people with false arguments? Nigel Farage is the biggest troll in UK history.

Oh, and: most immigrants to the UK come from the Common Wealth, not the EU.


----------



## Armadillo (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> That's the funny part: If they stay in the common market (which they will), they'll still have to pay their member fees and they'll still have to follow the Schengen treaty (free movement) - only difference: they can't participate in the rule making process anymore.
> 
> Isn't that funny? Dumb populists fucking over a whole country by lying to other dumb people with false arguments? Nigel Farage is the biggest troll in UK history.
> 
> Oh, and: most immigrants to the UK come from the Common Wealth, not the EU.



This.

No idea why people think we will get to stay in the market and get a different deal to Norway in regards to movement of people.


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 25, 2016)

So many butthurt and in-denial Remainers and EU-supporters, makes me smile :^)

I can only hope that parties like Sverigedemokraterna, Perussuomalaiset, PVV and AfD become more popular and usher in an era of emboldened Euroscepticism.

Remember, Remainers, if Democracy doesn't go your way, you can just call everyone who disagrees with you racist, stupid, just going to die soon, or any other form of baseless attack! Democracy and free speech are only good when they help your agenda, right? If it's democracy you don't like, you can just call it 'populism'!


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> So many butthurt and in-denial Remainers and EU-supporters, makes me smile :^)
> 
> I can only hope that parties like Sverigedemokraterna, Perussuomalaiset, PVV and AfD become more popular and usher in an era of emboldened Euroscepticism.
> 
> Remember, Remainers, if Democracy doesn't go your way, you can just call everyone who disagrees with you racist, stupid, just going to die soon, or any other form of baseless attack! Democracy and free speech are only good when they help your agenda, right? If it's democracy you don't like, you can just call it 'populism'!


I still haven't seen anyone be called racist yet, aside from that one guy


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I still haven't seen anyone be called racist yet, aside from that one guy


That's just one example, but I'm referring to the Remain campaign in it's entirety, which (in my view) was in part based upon attacking Leave supporters as being 'racist' for wanting the UK to have more control over its own immigration laws etc.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> That's just one example, but I'm referring to the Remain campaign in it's entirety, which (in my view) was in part based upon attacking Leave supporters as being 'racist' for wanting the UK to have more control over its own immigration laws etc.


I gotcha, but don't incite a squabble where there isn't one


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## Xiphiidae (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I gotcha, but don't incite a squabble where there isn't one


I would appreciate if you wouldn't claim that I'm doing things that I'm clearly not. If you look closely, my post wasn't a reply to anyone, but it stood on its own.


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## cearp (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Oh, and: most immigrants to the UK come from the Common Wealth, not the EU.


i am not sure of true facts and figures, only personal experiences when i have been to poorer parts of london. if you have not been yourself, i don't recommend going!


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 25, 2016)

cearp said:


> i am not sure of true facts and figures, only personal experiences when i have been to poorer parts of london. if you have not been yourself, i don't recommend going!


I second this.


Also, the notion that "most immigrants to the UK come from the Common Wealth" may well be true, but I will say that I've never had a harder time going through customs than when I went to the UK. I was grilled with dozens of questions; the customs officials were convinced that I couldn't have been going there on holiday, and that I had to be there to steal jobs.


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## Armadillo (Jun 25, 2016)

As someone who actually lives in what would be considered "poorer parts" of London, I'd say come on over, it's still great.


----------



## Viri (Jun 25, 2016)

Spoiler


----------



## cearp (Jun 25, 2016)

Armadillo said:


> As someone who actually lives in what would be considered "poorer parts" of London, I'd say come on over, it's still great.


i friendily disagree - but what do you think are great about the poorer areas of london?


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## Armadillo (Jun 25, 2016)

cearp said:


> i friendily disagree - but what do you think are great about the poorer areas of london?



I wouldn't say one specific thing is great or worth specifically visting (afterall most tourist stuff is in central london).

I was speaking more generally against, the whole "it's gotten bad and some areas are entirely unrecognizable and foreign", so great was a poor choice of words on my part.


Just as someone who lives here, rather than just visiting, I don't agree with the sentiment that it's awful with whole areas being unrecognizable and foreign and unwelcoming to the "native" population.


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## Viri (Jun 25, 2016)

Spoiler


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

All the leftys are saying over 50% of the voters are racists on the radio, online and tv so they really are butthurt. Lily Allen is a cunt.

I'm still smiling. Has anyone heard the laughing police man song?


----------



## Pleng (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Italy, France and the Dutch will leave the EU next.



No chance. When the Ununited Kingdom falls flat on it's face, and it will, there'll be no way any other country would dare think of leaving. This is actually going to end up giving the EU even _more_ power and a mandate to do whatever it likes; which is, ironically, what all the leave voters were scared of happening if we stayed.


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## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Pleng said:


> No chance. When the Ununited Kingdom falls flat on it's face, and it will, there'll be no way any other country would dare think of leaving. This is actually going to end up giving the EU even _more_ power and a mandate to do whatever it likes; which is, ironically, what all the leave voters were scared of happening if we stayed.




http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ance-Holland-Denmark-all-call-for-referendums


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ance-Holland-Denmark-all-call-for-referendums


Citing a tabloid. Classy. Those "Eurosceptics" are proven racists (especially LePen and Wilders) who have all babbled about superior races at some point. But then, that's your style, right? Some of your posts in this thread have already been deleted for racism.

The UK will tear apart once Scotland and Northern Ireland leave and the UK will have enormous economic problems. When you realize this, you'll probably deny having voted Leave.

But do continue your circle-jerk with the Australian dude who doesn't even see the irony in the fact that he was harrassed by UK customs but still supports harsher immigration laws (which the UK can't impose while staying in the market).


----------



## Pleng (Jun 25, 2016)

Yes and why do you think they're all calling for referendums _right now_? It's because they know that this is their last hope of ever getting one. It's a desperate attempt to say "look Britain's leaving the EU, so can we" before the UK folds in on itself.

If they genuinely thought that leaving the EU will lead to Britain prospering they'd be waiting until that happens to make the call. "Look how well the UK has done - we can do that too". But that will never happen.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Citing a tabloid. Classy. Those "Eurosceptics" are proven racists (especially LePen and Wilders) who have all babbled about superior races at some point. But then, that's your style, right? Some of your posts in this thread have already been deleted for racism.
> 
> The UK will tear apart once Scotland and Northern Ireland leave and the UK will have enormous economic problems. When you realize this, you'll probably deny having voted Leave.
> 
> But do continue your circle-jerk with the Australian dude who doesn't even see the irony in the fact that he was harrassed by UK customs but still supports harsher immigration laws (which the UK can't impose while staying in the market).



Quoting a Nation wide known Paper is alot more credible then the shit you are spouting.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

https://twitter.com/9GAGGifs/status/746614275154841601
lololol


----------



## cearp (Jun 25, 2016)

Pleng said:


> If they genuinely thought that leaving the EU will lead to Britain prospering they'd be waiting until that happens to make the call. "Look how well the UK has done - we can do that too". But that will never happen.


why not *'*_*if they genuinely thought it would lead to prospering, they wouldn't wait'*_
i don't really get what you mean by that. if they genuinely thought it (= if they believe it), why wait?


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Quoting a Nation wide known Paper is alot more credible then the shit you are spouting.



Haha, you believe that then, OK. At least it shows why you voted Leave, you let Tabloids do the "thinking" for you. Great. At least the UK will demonstrate to all "Eurosceptics" how leaving the EU will turn out for them. Farrage went back on his NHS promise just hours after the referendum, but that doesn't matter anyways, since the numbers he's been passing around don't add up.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Scotland and N Ireland wont be let back into the EU, they have nothing to offer or have anything for the leeches. I bet germany will still sell their VW cars to the UK as we are the only ones who buy them. still laughing.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Scotland and N Ireland wont be let back into the EU, they have nothing to offer or have anything for the leeches. I bet germany will still sell their VW cars to the UK as we are the only ones who buy them. still laughing.



Oh, they will be taken in, they pass all benchmarks. And VW are sold all over the world. Unlike your car industry, ours is still relevant. Or any industry, to be frank - Thatcher did make sure to kill them all off.


----------



## Pleng (Jun 25, 2016)

cearp said:


> why not *'*_*if they genuinely thought it would lead to prospering, they wouldn't wait'*_
> i don't really get what you mean by that. if they genuinely thought it (= if they believe it), why wait?



Basic politics - they have to convince the electorate. And there's clearly more chance of convincing the electorate after they see a prospering UK. So _if_ they thought that the UK was really going to be stronger outside the EU, then they would wait until there was sufficient evidence to back this up so that they would have decent material to campaign with. 

As they know full well that the UK is going to crash and burn, they are calling for referendum _now_ out of desperation and would be campaigning under a far weaker "look the UK is going to do it so let's follow suit", which is pretty much the only argument they have. Because it's better then the alternative - fighting a campaign while the UK is folding in on itself


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Oh, they will be taken in, they pass all benchmarks. And VW are sold all over the world. Unlike you car industry, ours is still relevant. Or any industry, to be frank - Thatcher did make sure to kill them all off.



Yup, when you are not rigging the cars to pass EU laws, real respect for your EU LOL, They are about to go under. All i see is bullshit and lies coming from your direction and country 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Pleng said:


> Basic politics - they have to convince the electorate. And there's clearly more chance of convincing the electorate after they see a prospering UK. So _if_ they thought that the UK was really going to be stronger outside the EU, then they would wait until there was sufficient evidence to back this up so that they would have decent material to campaign with.
> 
> As they know full well that the UK is going to crash and burn, they are calling for referendum _now_ out of desperation and would be campaigning under a far weaker "look the UK is going to do it so let's follow suit", which is pretty much the only argument they have. Because it's better then the alternative - fighting a campaign while the UK is folding in on itself




What is the time frame on this 'crash and burn'? so i can quote you later down the line for being wrong.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Yup, when you are not rigging the cars to pass EU laws, real respect for your EU LOL, They are about to go under. All i see is bullshit and lies coming from your direction and country



Classy. Yes, they did manipulate the cars, so did many others. We still have many other manufacturers and they are all doing very well, thank you very much. The sad remainder of manufacturing and service left in the UK is taking a massive hit from the BREXIT, go read an actual paper for once.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Classy. Yes, they did manipulate the cars, so did many others. We still have many other manufacturers and they are all doing very well, thank you very much. The sad remainder of manufacturing and service left in the UK is taking a massive hit from the BREXIT, go read an actual paper for once.



You just told me all papers were full of shit, verbal diarrhoea from your self. The whole argument that we don't produce anything is one of the many reasons we are leaving. We wont be buying your crap in the future, The car scandal ahh yes VW, SEAT, skoda, porchse who has a huge stake in those scandal company's. Pull the other one, $10billion dollars going to American has got to sting.


----------



## Pleng (Jun 25, 2016)

Well it's already started, hasn't it? Enough money was wiped off the stock market yesterday to cover our EU membership fees for the last 15 years. The value pound dropped by 10%, which is unheard of. Within hours of the announcement, the first company came out to announce that it's relocating 2000 of its jobs abroad. 

There will likely be steady declines over the next couple of years, with bigger drops when Scotland and N Ireland call for independence - further, heavier drops if they are successful in doing so.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mech said:


> You just told me all papers were full of shit



No, he implied the tabloid that _you_ quoted from was full of shit. He's reinforced that opinion by telling you to go and read a _proper_ newspaper.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> You just told me all papers were full of shit, verbal diarrhoea from your self. The whole argument that we don't produce anything is one of the many reasons we are leaving. We wont be buying your crap in the future, The car scandal ahh yes VW, SEAT, skoda, porchse who has a huge stake in those scandal company's. Pull the other one, $10billion dollars going to American has got to sting.



I have never said all papers are full of shit, I said TABLOIDS are. Sad you don't know the difference, but very telling. And yes, I think it's well deserved for VW to pay these fines for their crimes. -They can easily afford it.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I have never said all papers are full of shit, I said TABLOIDS are. Sad you don't know the difference, but very telling. And yes, I think it's well deserved for VW to pay these fines for their crimes. -They can easily afford it.



They got bailed out, they cant afford it 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> They got bailed out, they cant afford it



VW never got bailed out. They're still the biggest car manufacturer in Europe and one of the biggest in the world. And we have plenty of others besides VW. You're grasping at straws now.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> VW never got bailed out. They're still the biggest car manufacturer in Europe and one of the biggest in the world. And we have plenty of others besides VW. You're grasping at straws now.



My point still stands, your country is corrupt as fuck. Im glad we are no longer joined at the hip.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> My point still stands, your country is corrupt as fuck. Im glad we are no longer joined at the hip.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Reports

Huh, looks like we're doing better than the UK in that aspect. Have fun in your small little fantasy world, where the Empire still exists and the UK is still relevant.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Citing a tabloid. Classy. Those "Eurosceptics" are proven racists


"You can only be unbiased if you agree with me! If you disagree with me you're a racist!"



Uwabami said:


> But do continue your circle-jerk with the Australian dude


Don't presume people's genders :^)


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Germans calling others racist? BAHAHAH


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Germans calling others racist? BAHAHAH



Further proving the small world you live in. Saying all Germans are racist but forgetting atrocious crimes England committed in the "colonies". We'll see how living in the past will turn out for you.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Further proving the small world you live in. Saying all Germans are racist but forgetting atrocious crimes England committed in the "colonies". We'll see how living in the past will turn out for you.


Not nice being labelled a racist is it? life lesson there for your sorry ass.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Not nice being labelled a racist is it? life lesson there for your sorry ass.



I have never said or done anything racist while you continue to do so all the time. Calling me a racist solely for being German is racist in itself.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Pot kettle black.


----------



## T-hug (Jun 25, 2016)

Guys if we can't have sensible, respectful discussions then the thread will be closed.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Further proving the small world you live in. Saying all Germans are racist but forgetting atrocious crimes England committed in the "colonies". We'll see how living in the past will turn out for you.


>don't blame Germany for the past 
>blame Britain for the past


----------



## Deleted User (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Italy, France and the Dutch will leave the EU next.


pls not


----------



## AkGBA (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Pot kettle black.



God this kid is annoying. Congrats, you're the first in my ignore list.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> >don't blame Germany for the past
> >blame Britain for the past



This is why the losers are never wrong and cant admit defeat. Funny how things work out though isnt it. Hard pill to swallow being on the losing side.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> This is why the losers are never wrong and cant admit defeat. Funny how things work out though isnt it. Hard pill to swallow being on the losing side.


I never said not to blame Germany for its past. I said not to blame innocent individuals while also forgetting your own country's past.

And we will see who will end up being on the losing side. I just feel bad for the other half of your country who will have to suffer for your short-sighted decision.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I never said not to blame Germany for its past. I said not to blame innocent individuals while also forgetting your own country's past.
> 
> And we will see who will end up being on the losing side. I just feel bad for the other half of your country who will have to suffer for your short-sighted decision.



The other less then half you mean, if it was half it would of been a draw. The minority lost and that's how voting is suppose to work.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> The other less then half you mean, if it was half it would of been a draw. The minority lost and that's how voting is suppose to work.


It was very, very close. And your country is now bitterly divided. But yes, the OUT Campaign has won and we will respect that. No more cherry-picking and rebates, though.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> It was very, very close. And your country is now bitterly divided. But yes, the OUT Campaign has won and we will respect that. No more cherry-picking and rebates, though.



It might not of been though, nobody campaigned in papers, tv etc to leave because of the flood of stay crap and scare mongering being told 24/7 on the run up to it. Just goes to show the best result didn't need any slander and bullshit.


----------



## Depravo (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Just goes to show the best result didn't need any slander and bullshit.


*giggles*


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> It might not of been though, nobody campaigned in papers, tv etc to leave because of the flood of stay crap and scare mongering being told 24/7 on the run up to it. Just goes to show the best result didn't need any slander and bullshit.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> View attachment 54127



His party isn't even in power so I'm not sure what you mean lol.


----------



## Depravo (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> His party isn't even in power so I'm not sure what you mean lol.


Boris Johnson's party is not in power? Now I know you're just trolling.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> His party isn't even in power so I'm not sure what you mean lol.


Of course the Tories are in power. And this gent will probably be your next prime minister...


----------



## mudassirul (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> His party isn't even in power so I'm not sure what you mean lol.


Are you sure, I'm pretty sure he's a member of the Conservative party, the same one that our current PM Cameron is in!


----------



## Phantom64 (Jun 25, 2016)

*Should the UK leave the EU? The aftermath! 
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215*


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

Phantom64 said:


> *Should the UK leave the EU? The aftermath!
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215*


Social Media is flaring up as well:

#Bregret
#WhatHaveWeDone
#londependence

Looks like a lot of people just wanted to teach Cameron a lesson. But it's reality now - out is out.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Scotland and N Ireland wont be let back into the EU, they have nothing to offer or have anything for the leeches. I bet germany will still sell their VW cars to the UK as we are the only ones who buy them. still laughing.





Uwabami said:


> Oh, they will be taken in, they pass all benchmarks. And VW are sold all over the world. Unlike your car industry, ours is still relevant. Or any industry, to be frank - Thatcher did make sure to kill them all off.



To be honest, I've lived in many places around the world. And you find VW in every fucking place, and I'm not saying they are good or bad, but they are all around.
Regarding British cars, you almost have to pull a Sherlock Holmes to find one outside the UK.
That is the harsh? reality.


----------



## pwsincd (Jun 25, 2016)




----------



## Aurora Wright (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Italy, France and the Dutch will leave the EU next.


Luckily we can't, thanks to our constitution, have referenda about this kind of things.


----------



## Phantom64 (Jun 25, 2016)

Aurora Wright said:


> Luckily we can't, thanks to our constitution, have referenda about this kind of things.


Thankfully. Thanks articolo 75. :^))))


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

Aurora Wright said:


> Luckily we can't, thanks to our constitution, have referenda about this kind of things.


You're very lucky.


----------



## Aurora Wright (Jun 25, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> You're very lucky.


Heh, one of our populist parties yesterday changed a writing on their site without saying anything... earlier they said people have the right to choose to stay in the EU or not, they changed it with "we need a better Europe, we'll change it from the inside" or something like that XD


----------



## Phantom64 (Jun 25, 2016)

Aurora Wright said:


> Heh, one of our populist parties yesterday changed a writing on their site without saying anything... earlier they said people have the right to choose to stay in the EU or not, they changed it with "we need a better Europe, we'll change it from the inside" or something like that XD


OMG TRUE. I literally died. M5S? :^)


----------



## Aurora Wright (Jun 25, 2016)

Phantom64 said:


> OMG TRUE. I literally died. M5S? :^)


Yeah lol


----------



## Pleng (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> The other less then half you mean, if it was half it would of been a draw. The minority lost and that's how voting is suppose to work.



Not according to Nigel Farage, one of the main protagonists of the OUT campaign. Ho hum...


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 25, 2016)




----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> View attachment 54137



That post of yours has summed it all up perfectly. 







--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

They people who lost are sat thinking, how the hell did we lose? we are always right and know best for everyone else and always have?! derp derp derp.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> That post of yours has summed it all up perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And here I secretly enjoying my Schadenfreude.
(but perhaps you will get that the other way around)


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> And here I secretly enjoying my Schadenfreude.
> (but perhaps you will get that the other way around)



Dont be sour, we may give you back the Falklands now the people have taken charge of the UK.


----------



## rasputin (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> His party isn't even in power so I'm not sure what you mean lol.



?wtf? .... anyway 2nd Scottish referendum is now official... you do know where that is yes?


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

rasputin said:


> ?wtf? .... anyway 2nd Scottish referendum is now official... you do know where that is yes?



no it isnt.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Dont be sour, we may give you back the Falklands now the people have taken charge of the UK.


Hahaha. Perhaps, I find that not realistic but who knows. What I'm sure of is you have willingly decided to make your future harsh as hell and you don't realise it.

PS: Would also Gibraltar go back to Spain? /s


----------



## XDel (Jun 25, 2016)

Consolidation is always bad.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Either way, what do we care? We have left the EU and gotten what we want 
Scotland can do as they wish.


----------



## Viri (Jun 25, 2016)

Spoiler


----------



## Clydefrosch (Jun 25, 2016)

I'm waiting for the REBRENTRY movement now.


----------



## Lia (Jun 25, 2016)

Clydefrosch said:


> I'm waiting for the REBRENTRY movement now.


Yes please

It still sounds like a kind of breakfast tho.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

Also I just discovered something

Only 72% of the total UK population voted, and to constitutionally pass a referendum like this there needs to be at least 75% to represent the total population. So technically it wasn't even a legal decision


----------



## Lia (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Also I just discovered something
> 
> Only 72% of the total UK population voted, and to constitutionally pass a referendum like this there needs to be at least 75% to represent the total population. So technically it wasn't even a legal decision


Wait really?
HALLELUJAH


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Also I just discovered something
> 
> Only 72% of the total UK population voted, and to constitutionally pass a referendum like this there needs to be at least 75% to represent the total population. So technically it wasn't even a legal decision



not sure where you read that shit, its who ever has the higher % lol.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

Zelock said:


> Wait really?
> HALLELUJAH


Yeah, there's a group trying to nullify the decision on that basis currently (or at least so says my dad, who practically lives in Germany 4 months out of the year and likes to stay updated on European politics. I'll try to find a source on that in a bit)


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Yeah, there's a group trying to nullify the decision on that basis currently (or at least so says my dad, who practically lives in Germany 4 months out of the year and likes to stay updated on European politics. I'll try to find a source on that in a bit)



So the germans are trying to stop us leave the EU? im not really sure what it has to do with any of the countries in the EU.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> So the germans are trying to stop us leave the EU? im not really sure what it has to do with any of the countries in the EU.


You can't read, can you


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You can't read, can you



I dont even know why you are iin this thread dont you have trump to worry about?


----------



## emigre (Jun 25, 2016)

The referendum is non binding. Legally Parliament doesn't have to act on it.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

im still seeing butt hurt lefties crying about this, you have had your 40 years fucking up the country. we won and would win again if it came down to it 


Hear that? its the sound of the free ride gates closing, im going to bet English speaking classes will be down in the EU from here on out hahah £££££££££££££££££££££


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> im still seeing butt hurt lefties crying about this, you have had your 40 years fucking up the country. we won and would win again if it came down to it
> 
> 
> Hear that? its the sound of the free ride gates closing, *im going to bet English speaking classes will be down in the EU from here on out hahah* £££££££££££££££££££££


I'm gonna play a game of "willfully ignorant" and ask you to explain that to me


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Heres a good statement "Butt hurt lefties everywhere if only you hadn't of shut down the immigration debate time after time maybe this wouldn't have happened"

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Well the EU will have to figure out where the next lot of free handouts is going to come from and learn their language.


----------



## Lia (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> So the germans are trying to stop us leave the EU? im not really sure what it has to do with any of the countries in the EU.


"and likes to stay up to date on European politics."
Don't assume this has anything to do with Germany.
You might be right, but I'm just throwing it out there.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> So the germans are trying to stop us leave the EU? im not really sure what it has to do with any of the countries in the EU.


His dad is not German, he lives in Germany 4 months out of 12 - it seems you have some problems with reading comprehension. This is not the first time you failed to understand what someone else wrote in clear, simple English.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> His dad is not German, he lives in Germany 4 months out of 12 - it seems you have some problems with reading comprehension. This is not the first time you failed to understand what someone else wrote in clear, simple English.



oh i understand im just only listening to my own views and obviously everyone else is wrong, just like the supporters of the STAY campaign think and act. Gets annoying doesn't it


----------



## AkGBA (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> oh i understand im just only listening to my own views and obviously everyone else is wrong, just like the supporters of the STAY campaign think and act. Gets annoying doesn't it


Did you even vote ?
Are you old enough to vote ?


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

AkGBA said:


> Did you even vote ?
> Are you old enough to vote ?



I thought you blocked me? i see the lefties are still liars and full of shit, same old same old.


----------



## AkGBA (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> I thought you blocked me? i see the lefties are still liars and full of shit, same old same old.



Yeah, wanted to be entertained.
You didn't answer though...


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

AkGBA said:


> Yeah, wanted to be entertained.
> You didn't answer though...



i voted to stay and im 69.


----------



## insidexdeath (Jun 25, 2016)

Both remain and leave has its ups and downs. However, it's riskier to leave than it is to remain, but it depends on how well the UK does in the long run. If we do well, then leaving would benefit us more than remaining. Only thing I'm afraid of is Scotland asking for its independence since the main argument of them staying part of the U.K. is the EU. If that happens, we're screwed.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

insidexdeath said:


> Both remain and leave has its ups and downs. However, it's riskier to leave than it is to remain, but it depends on how well the UK does in the long run. If we do well, then leaving would benefit us more than remaining. Only thing I'm afraid of is Scotland asking for its independence since the main argument of them staying part of the U.K. is the EU. If that happens, we're screwed.




Heres somthing to think about and i quote:

" Sturgeon has a population of 3m, how on earth is she going to raise the cash to pay the EU the membership fees, or is she kissing their feet in the hope that they will give her a shedload of free money in return for taking a few million refugees? Scotland is afraid, very afraid, that they will have to stand on their own two feet, and she is seeking a safe refuge in the EU where she can sell the soul of the country to the highest bidder. That isn't leadership. They may as well vote to disband the Scottish Parliament and have the country run from Brussels.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. "


----------



## AkGBA (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> i voted to stay and im 69.



Yeah I see. So you're too young to vote, right ? And you want to teach us about politics.
Nice try. Come again after finishing your education.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

AkGBA said:


> Yeah I see. So you're too young to vote, right ? And you want to teach us about politics.
> Nice try. Come again after finishing your education.




Asking for a re-vote after the people have spoken to get the result they want, i think they need to learn about politics. 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629646


The UK's European Commissioner Lord Hill is to stand down, saying "what is done cannot be undone" after the UK voted to leave the European Union.

lawls


----------



## insidexdeath (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Heres somthing to think about and i quote:
> 
> " Sturgeon has a population of 3m, how on earth is she going to raise the cash to pay the EU the membership fees, or is she kissing their feet in the hope that they will give her a shedload of free money in return for taking a few million refugees? Scotland is afraid, very afraid, that they will have to stand on their own two feet, and she is seeking a safe refuge in the EU where she can sell the soul of the country to the highest bidder. That isn't leadership. They may as well vote to disband the Scottish Parliament and have the country run from Brussels.
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch. "



The EU needs Scotland, just as much Scotland needs the EU. Scotland actually has resources, if it does manage to get its independence, they will be able to pay the fees on their own.

Let's also not forget that Northern Ireland is also not happy with the results, and they could as well become part of Ireland if a referendum does take place. This is exactly why I said it's now up to how we handle leaving the EU and how to recover from such losses.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> I dont even know why you are iin this thread dont you have trump to worry about?


lololol
does everybody frightened to listen something they don't like sound like that?
nah... only those that know for sure they couldn't even start to defend their position.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

So I did a little bit of research and it appears that he was kind of right, but messed up on a few details: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/0...erendum-as-millions-call-for-second-vote.html

Basically, the final decision is up to Parliament


----------



## insidexdeath (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> So I did a little bit of research and it appears that he was kind of right, but messed up on a few details: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/0...erendum-as-millions-call-for-second-vote.html
> 
> Basically, the final decision is up to Parliament


It is up to the parliament now, but they can't just reject this referendum, it would literally stab democracy in the back.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

there really is no way around this, like i said a hard pill to swallow.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> there really is no way around this, like i said a hard pill to swallow.


I asked you a question a while back that you still haven't answered, by the way


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I asked you a question a while back that you still haven't answered, by the way



what question?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm gonna play a game of "willfully ignorant" and ask you to explain that to me


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

i already answered, go and re read.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> there really is no way around this, like i said a hard pill to swallow.


It's a sweet pill to swallow man.

1. Unrealistic theory
Scotland and Northern Ireland will come into the EU.
Even Gibraltar will go back to Spain.
The UK will divide and England will be a country left alone.
We will learn of the UK in history books.

2. Realistic theory
The brexit will never happen. 
There will be a second referendum, even a third one.
"Democracy" will be shown to be a joke once again.

I go for 2.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> It's a sweet pill to swallow man.
> 
> 1. Unrealistic theory
> Scotland and Northern Ireland will come into the EU.
> ...



You wont go for either because you are not British.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> You wont go for either because you are not British.


You're wrong, you don't have to be British to predict what will happen.
The same way you don't have to be a warrior to predict the result of a war.

Why are you so dense? You amuse me. I suppose not even a rifle bullet would get through that skull of yours, well that is quite a "positive" I suppose.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> You're wrong, you don't have to be British to predict what will happen.
> The same you don't have to be a warrior to predict the result of a war.
> 
> Why are you so dense? You amuse me. I suppose not even a rifle bullet would get through that skull of yours, well that is quite a "positive" I suppose.



Here come the personal insults, you better get used to not giving out orders to us any more we are not a part of the sinking ship that is the EU. There is nothing to predict we won. let that sink into your thick skull, WE WON, its over lol.


----------



## insidexdeath (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> i already answered, go and re read.


 you didn't really reply to my Scotland argument though. I'm not even sure if you know what you're talking about if all you've done regarding Scotland is quote what other people had to say in the matter.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

insidexdeath said:


> you didn't really reply to my Scotland argument though. I'm not even sure if you know what you're talking about if all you've done regarding Scotland is quote what other people had to say in the matter.



I thought this was the brexit topic though, who gives a shit about what scotland wants, they had their chance and missed it.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Here come the personal insults, you better get used to not giving out orders to us any more we are not a part of the sinking ship that is the EU. There is nothing to predict we won. let that sink into your thick skull, WE WON, its over lol.


Sorry, I am not trying to insult you, but it is frustrating talking to an entity that doesn't make sense.
Please, read what you have written and see that you sound like a broken record, and you put words in some other persons mouth. It's becoming difficult not to feel some shame for you.


----------



## 59672 (Jun 25, 2016)

insidexdeath said:


> It is up to the parliament now, but they can't just reject this referendum, it would literally stab democracy in the back.



Indeed, it would make them look especially bad after all they had said about following through with the vote no matter what and it being the will of the people. That is until leave won, they really weren't expecting that one.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> Sorry, I am not trying to insult you, but it is frustrating talking to an entity that doesn't make sense.
> Please, read what you have written and see that you sound like a broken record, and you put words in some other persons mouth. It's becoming difficult not to feel some shame for you.



Im just laughing at all you morons thinking if you complain enough that the UK will stay in the EU or get another vote. ive got all day.


----------



## brickmii82 (Jun 25, 2016)

I predict this thread will be locked.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Im just laughing at all you morons thinking if you complain enough that the UK will stay in the EU or get another vote. ive got all day.


You fail to notice you are being laughed at, you've made a joke of yourself.


brickmii82 said:


> I predict this thread will be locked.


I fully agree with this prediction.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> You fail to notice you are being laughed at, you've make a joke of yourself.
> 
> I fully agree with this prediction.



Doesnt matter what you say, it wont change anything, and im very happy with my self for getting my vote in and winning. cheers


----------



## VinsCool (Jun 25, 2016)

brickmii82 said:


> I predict this thread will be locked.


Expected it to be much sooner than this though.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 25, 2016)

So, I've read what the media's been saying and it basically comes down to "UK is racist towards immigrants because of they're leaving the EU and that's bad!". For heaven's sake, they've blown it out of god damn proportion!

UK leaving the EU doesn't mean they'll stop being Europeans and UK won't magically leave the European continent, what's happening is that UK wants to become independent from the EU and that's been promoted as a horrible idea when it really isn't. Having more control in who enters the country is always an excellent idea and while some may think owning passports is unnecessary, the silver-lining is that the European ID-owners with a passport will be able to travel anywhere in the world (i.e., outside Europe) if they want (very likely unless they've got no desire to try something different and a place they've never been to).

And like the saying goes; It will get worse before it gets better. Ultimately it's better this way because thanks to Merkel and the EU they're ruining the European continent so European countries taking their own initiative against EU is the first step in the right direction.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Doesnt matter what you say, it wont change anything, and im very happy with my self for getting my vote in and winning. cheers


It's not about your vote, it's about your lack of ability to read, write, make a point, defend your opinion.
You "read" something and reply something else that doesn't even matter.
Before I said something like:


sarkwalvein said:


> It's a sweet pill to swallow man.
> 
> 1. Unrealistic theory
> Scotland and Northern Ireland will come into the EU.
> ...


Stating: 1. ... theory, and 2. .... theory, making it obvious there are two possibilities I see as somewhat plausible; at the end I say "I go with 2", meaning I predict 2 will happen.

Then you reply (in other words) "you can't predict because you are not British."
Man, that sure makes no sense. You made a joke of yourself there.

Then you say something like "you better get used to not giving out orders to us any more we are not a part of the sinking ship that is the EU"
Hell, do you think a single individual, even an ARGENTINE, has been giving UK orders and making their economy go to the drain.
Again, that sure makes no sense. You made a joke of yourself there.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

i never said you couldn't predict any of your points, i said what does it matter and who cares you are not British and it wont change anything. You are pissing in the wind.


----------



## Lia (Jun 25, 2016)

Please... Someone just lock this already...


----------



## VinsCool (Jun 25, 2016)

Zelock said:


> Please... Someone just lock this already...


Reported, it's just a matter of time before the thread _collapses_ even more.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

You cant just lock a topic because it doesn't involve your opinion lol


----------



## Lia (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> You cant just lock a topic because it doesn't involve your opinion lol


I want to lock it because it is turning into literal cancer.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> You cant just lock a topic because it doesn't involve your opinion lol


This thread has become a trash container.
It holds no opinions.
Only a kid that spits nonsense trolling around and a group of idiots, the worst me, baiting, trying to make sense and replying to it.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

Get used to it, the taste wont go away for a while.


----------



## Flame (Jun 25, 2016)

The EU now has 1 'GB' of free space...


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> i already answered, go and re read.


Sorry, I missed it since you didn't quote me and tacked it onto the end of a reply you previously made


mech said:


> Well the EU will have to figure out where the next lot of free handouts is going to come from and learn their language.


Although to be fair I'm still having a hard time understanding what that sentence says, despite the fact that it's written by a native English speaker who appears to be berating non-native English speakers


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 25, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Sorry, I missed it since you didn't quote me and tacked it onto the end of a reply you previously made
> 
> Although to be fair I'm still having a hard time understanding what that sentence says, despite the fact that it's written by a native English speaker who appears to be berating non-native English speakers



Insult all you like, I'm not going to lower my self.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 25, 2016)

mech said:


> Insult all you like, I'm not going to lower my self.


While yes, that was an insult, I'm actually genuinely curious as to what you meant


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 26, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> While yes, that was an insult, I'm actually genuinely curious as to what you meant



If you don't understand then don't let it worry you, I mean are you living in the EU? Probably not, that's why you don't get it and is pretty pointless explaining.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 26, 2016)

mech said:


> If you don't understand then don't let it worry you, I mean are you living in the EU? Probably not, that's why you don't get it and is pretty pointless explaining.


No, I'm not, but this is a decision that will affect trade on an international level so I'm still curious about your stance


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 26, 2016)

Corbyn is being blamed for the lost referendum now, it's always someone else's fault and now they are picking at their own!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Scotland will need the go ahead from the new Prime minister of the UK to have another referendum of their own to leave the UK. They may just get told 'tuff luck'.


----------



## barronwaffles (Jun 26, 2016)

Niggas' saying this is going to be the death of either the EU or Great Britain need to chill.


----------



## Viri (Jun 26, 2016)

Spoiler


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 26, 2016)

Lovely jubberly.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 26, 2016)

mech said:


> Lovely jubberly.


I'm glad that England (!) is out because of people like you, UKIP and the Tories (which you can't even tell apart as you have proven to us a few pages back).

I'm sad for my hospitable, witty friends over there, who will have to suffer because of your xenophobic stupidity.

It won't even do what you wanted to archive (you'll still pay membership fees and you will still have to keep your borders open) and even Nigel Farage already had to back-padal on his lies.

The only good that will come of this is that we can reform Europe without the Tories disrupting. And maybe it will show people of other countries that the easy solution isn't always the right one.


----------



## Viri (Jun 26, 2016)

So, how many people live in the Vatican city? I think less than 1k according to Wiki?

If that's is true, there are sure a lot of ghost in the Vatican city signing a UK petition.

{"name":"Vatican City","code":"VA","signature_count":11012}

There sure are a lot of people outside of the UK voting on petitions that are supposed to be for UK citizens only.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215.json


----------



## Vengenceonu (Jun 26, 2016)

Can we have a Gbatemp referendum--A Mech-xit if you will--- so we can just just leave @mech here by himself since he likes this cancerous thread so much.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 26, 2016)

I cannot imagine how foolish and ignorant you have you be to believe that "just because Parliament has the last say, that means Brexit won't actually happen!", it's just as absurd as believing "just because the PM declared war, doesn't mean that a war's going to happen, he hasn't signed the paperwork yet!". And let's not even go into "the turnout wasn't high enough, so the referendum doesn't count!"

It's bizarre that people can be this much in denial. You would think that if any of the "referendum doesn't count" points were valid, Cameron would have mentioned them before resigning?



AkGBA said:


> Did you even vote ?
> Are you old enough to vote ?


I thought only old people supported Leave and all young people supported Remain :^)



Vengenceonu said:


> Can we have a Gbatemp referendum--A Mech-xit if you will--- so we can just just leave @mech here by himself since he likes this cancerous thread so much.


Can't have people expressing their own opinions now, can we, Comrade?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 26, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Can't have people expressing their own opinions now, can we, Comrade?


Is he not expressing his opinion?


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 26, 2016)

Hilary Benn sacked as Corbyn faces 'no confidence' pressure.

It looks as though the Labour Party is falling apart because the IN campaigners are looking for a scape goat, they want blood! Lol. 

http://news.sky.com/story/1717625/corbyn-sacks-hilary-benn-over-leadership-coup

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36632539

It's sad they are trying to out each other now.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Viri said:


> So, how many people live in the Vatican city? I think less than 1k according to Wiki?
> 
> If that's is true, there are sure a lot of ghost in the Vatican city signing a UK petition.
> 
> ...




It's been proven that most is all foreign sign ups and bogus signatures. The lefties are looking desperate and it's hilarious!


----------



## Costello (Jun 26, 2016)

I will not lock this thread, there is still a lot to be said.
However I will ask you to stay civil to each other. 
It's OK to disagree but don't insult each other because you think your opinion is better than everyone else's.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 26, 2016)

Costello said:


> I will not lock this thread, there is still a lot to be said.
> However I will ask you to stay civil to each other.
> It's OK to disagree but don't insult each other because you think your opinion is better than everyone else's.


Thank you.

I'm a proud European and fully support Brexit as well as any other European country that decides to take the same measures.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 26, 2016)

An 8th member of Corbyns's cabinet has resigned because he wont step down.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

edit: read it wrong.


----------



## Phantom64 (Jun 26, 2016)

Phantom64 said:


> i'll bump this thread every 5 votes-
> (i think this is one of my rare serious thread)


I think this thread doesn't need to be bumped anymore, perfect


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 26, 2016)

BBC: Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud

Quotes from the article: "has zero chance of being enacted", "You can't simply invent new hurdles if you are on the losing side".


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 26, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> BBC: Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud
> 
> Quotes from the article: "has zero chance of being enacted", "You can't simply invent new hurdles if you are on the losing side".



Thats gold LOL article opens with:

The House of Commons petitions committee has said it is investigating allegations of fraud in connection with a petition calling for a second EU referendum.
Any signatures found to be fraudulent would be removed, it said.
More than 3.1 million people have signed the petition, although PM David Cameron has previously said there will be no second referendum.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I hope they all get fined or a criminal record for fraud.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 26, 2016)

Response from the Petitions Committee. 

Apparently tens of thousands of the signatures were from North Korea, the Vatican and the British Antarctic Territory.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 26, 2016)

i know i know! but i had to post it HAHA


----------



## Youkai (Jun 27, 2016)

I think it is interesting to see how so many people in england actually started whining about the "bad" decision they made oO
I have seen in JAPANESE TV ! (yes they are pretty much interested oO) that a lot of Brexit voters in GB now say they are sorry and that they only wanted to show that they are unhappy but never wanted to actually leave ... and I read that AFTER the vote many people searched "what happens after the brexit" or other things asking if its a good thing to leave or not trough google.

And on top now the English Politicians are all like "we don't need to leave now" and "we do not know how long it might take" while all those evil foreigners in the EU say that now after they voted to leave they should leave asap
(while so many ppl before the exit vote said the evil European countries won't let them go...)


----------



## Ray Koopa (Jun 27, 2016)

It surely gives some people to think about. Especially those high in the EU.

Anyway, how dumb were most of those Yes voters? *After* the poll sites closed, they started googling what it would mean to leave the EU.

Dumb people, dumb people everywhere.
In the end, I hope Ireland and Scotland leave the UK, let those royal asslickers do their own job, and join the EU again. That would be fun!


----------



## Greymane (Jun 27, 2016)

I realy dont have enough popcorn, for the amount of shenanigans going on around the brexit.
And i dont even need to use my own salt, others people are salty enough.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jun 27, 2016)

I haven't been following this at all. Who left what, what's happening? Decided to check this thread out today.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 27, 2016)

BurningDesire said:


> I haven't been following this at all. Who left what, what's happening? Decided to check this thread out today.


Nobody left anything. 
Some drama queen islanders are making a lot of noise about what they will never end up doing.


----------



## BurningDesire (Jun 27, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> Nobody left anything.
> Some drama queen islanders are making a lot of noise about what they will never end up doing.


Oh okay, if anything drastic happens tag me. Even though I do not live in the UK i've been catching up on this thread. Quite interesting.


----------



## InsaneNutter (Jun 27, 2016)

BurningDesire said:


> I haven't been following this at all. Who left what, what's happening? Decided to check this thread out today.



The UK voted to to leave the EU, which will probably happen in around two years time.

After that Scotland will most likely have another referendum to leave the UK, likely succeeding this time as the majority also want to remain in the EU.

This will probably cause Northern Ireland to do the same, as the majority want to remain in the EU.

The end result been the people all countries involved will likely be worse off.

Fun times.


----------



## Youkai (Jun 27, 2016)

BurningDesire said:


> I haven't been following this at all. Who left what, what's happening? Decided to check this thread out today.



lol this actually shows the ignorance of many Americans very well ... sadly ...

At least there are some Americans here who actually (no sarcasm) know better about the EU and the importance of the Brexit than lot of Europeans



InsaneNutter said:


> The UK voted to to leave the EU, which will probably happen in around two years time.
> 
> After that Scotland will most likely have another referendum to leave the UK, likely succeeding this time as the majority also want to remain in the EU.
> 
> ...



Pretty much this + you can already feel / see it in the exchange market ...
The GBP and € both fall down alot but for the GBP its much worse than for the € ... i think even the US$ is affected ... same with the JPY and whatever there is ...

This could hurt some places export / import companies very much.


----------



## chaosrunner (Jun 27, 2016)

no cuz uk has hot pornstars


----------



## BurningDesire (Jun 27, 2016)

Youkai said:


> lol this actually shows the ignorance of many Americans very well ... sadly ...
> 
> At least there are some Americans here who actually (no sarcasm) know better about the EU and the importance of the Brexit than lot of Europeans
> 
> ...


It's not that I am ignorant it's that I do not give two flying fucks about politics lmao.

Anyways thank you (and the post above) for informing me  now I don't have to feel stupid when people bring this up.


----------



## Ray Koopa (Jun 27, 2016)

Didn't I hear Texas wanted to leave the US soon?

Understandable, looking at the current presidential candidates, lol


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

Yeah, just like Bavaria... They're just bluffing...


----------



## DjoeN (Jun 27, 2016)

InsaneNutter said:


> The UK voted to to leave the EU, which will probably happen in around two years time.
> 
> After that Scotland will most likely have another referendum to leave the UK, likely succeeding this time as the majority also want to remain in the EU.
> 
> ...


Why nobody talks about Wales? (I know Wales isn't really aknowledged as country but more as region with limited self-government)
Pitty Wales has nothing to say when it comes to international stuff (only limited when it comes to internal affairs)


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

DjoeN said:


> Why nobody talks about Wales? (I know Wales isn't really aknowledged as country but more as region with limited self-government)
> Pitty Wales has nothing to say when it comes to international stuff (only limited when it comes to internal affairs)



Because Wales voted Leave


----------



## Aurora Wright (Jun 27, 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story just leaving this here...


----------



## Noroxus (Jun 27, 2016)

Aurora Wright said:


> https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story just leaving this here...



Humans can be so disgusting at times....
I feared that the Brexit would spark even greater xenophobia in the country.


----------



## InsaneNutter (Jun 27, 2016)

DjoeN said:


> Why nobody talks about Wales? (I know Wales isn't really aknowledged as country but more as region with limited self-government)
> Pitty Wales has nothing to say when it comes to international stuff (only limited when it comes to internal affairs)



The majority in Wales voted to leave the EU, the same as England, so would have no reason to want to leave the UK.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

It's time to close this thread. Nazis are starting to spread proven misinformation and agitation. No actual, credible sources: obvious racist websites.

The mods of GBAtemp should be ashamed not to ban those racists and shutting this clusterfuck down. Shame on you!


----------



## rasputin (Jun 27, 2016)

Sterling continuing to plummet, everyone in the UK needs to dump currency for assets/gold now!


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> It's time to close this thread. Nazis are starting to spread proven misinformation and agitation. No actual, credible sources: obvious racist websites.
> 
> The mods of GBAtemp should be ashamed not to ban those racists and shutting this clusterfuck down. Shame on you!


The website is racist but the news gathered about the women raped are racist? No. You're just trying to have things your way because you can't admit things need to change.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I didn't say there haven't been any rapes by foreigners, but the facts are skewed and many of these cases have been proven to be wrong or misrepresented. And crime statistics prove that a lot more native citizens are committing crimes than immigrants (obviously, as they are the majority).
> 
> I hope the mods will shut this down soon, or I will report this to the authorities. I know the owner of this forum lives in the UK and this clearly violates UK/EU law.


And you're again trying to block others from expressing how they feel about the continent they so much love. I get that you don't care about Europe and it could go to the toilet and you'd be find with it, but others love it.

Taking back control is a necessity that European countries need since EU has been doing a disaster of a job. Especially Merkel who should've resigned since she's only done more harm than good.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> And you're again trying to block others from expressing how they feel about the continent they so much love. I get that you don't care about Europe and it could go to the toilet and you'd be find with it, but others love it.
> 
> Taking back control is a necessity that European countries need since EU has been doing a disaster of a job. Especially Merkel who should've resigned since she's only done more harm than good.



I love Europe and this is why we can't let racists like you win. And spreading false information and agitating people is not covered by freedom of speech in the EU.


----------



## vayanui8 (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I didn't say there haven't been any rapes by foreigners, but the facts are skewed and many of these cases have been proven to be wrong or misrepresented. And crime statistics prove that a lot more native citizens are committing crimes than immigrants (obviously, as they are the majority).
> 
> I hope the mods will shut this down soon, or I will report this to the authorities. I know the owner of this forum lives in the UK and this clearly violates UK/EU law.


This is ridiculous. You don't have to agree with him but hes done nothing out of hand. Hes allowed to post what he wants and he hasn't been racist like you claim. Just because you don't like what he has to say doesn't mean you can silence him.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

vayanui8 said:


> This is ridiculous. You don't have to agree with him but hes done nothing out of hand. Hes allowed to post what he wants and he hasn't been racist like you claim. Just because you don't like what he has to say doesn't mean you can silence him.



The website he's linked to is in clear violation to EU law, we have different laws than the US.

And how is linking to "White Power" forums littered with misinformation not racist? He's even admitted this.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I love Europe and this is why we can't let racists like you win. And spreading false information and agitating people is not covered by freedom of speech in the EU.


Just leave the thread if it offends you so badly. My god.


----------



## vayanui8 (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> The website he's linked to is in clear violation to EU law, we have different laws than the US.
> 
> And how is linking to "White Power" forums littered with misinformation not racist? He's even admitted this.


He linked to 1 forum post that includes information only. It doesn't have any opinions in it


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> I love Europe and this is why we can't let racists like you win. And spreading false information and agitating people is not covered by freedom of speech in the EU.


The link I provided does have sources for the women who're raped as well as the videos. Stop trying to use the race card, that's just utter B.S. since you can see on the videos that the men, the so-called 'refugees' (there are actual honest refugees out there but most of them are adult men with terrible intentions) taking a woman and raping her.

You say that's not evidence?



vayanui8 said:


> This is ridiculous. You don't have to agree with him but hes done nothing out of hand. Hes allowed to post what he wants and he hasn't been racist like you claim. Just because you don't like what he has to say doesn't mean you can silence him.


Exactly. He's just like that other guy on here who called me and others "racist".


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 27, 2016)

vayanui8 said:


> This is ridiculous. You don't have to agree with him but hes done nothing out of hand. Hes allowed to post what he wants and he hasn't been racist like you claim. Just because you don't like what he has to say doesn't mean you can silence him.



This is what every person on the 'UK shouldn't leave and be their own country again' says now to the people who voted to leave like my self, apparently we are all racist bigots. They are just sour because they lost.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Your memory doesn't serve you, I said on several occasions that I am PRO BREXIT. Still am. And posts of yours have already been removed from this thread for racism.
> 
> Again: Agitation and hate speech are not covered by freedom of speech laws in the EU.


Providing sources for the crimes happening is not racism. It's facts.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jun 27, 2016)

The petition of the second EU referendum is bogus:


----------



## sarkwalvein (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Edit:
> On a lighter note: there's a second BREXIT happening right now in the EuroCup. If the mods are distracted watching that, I might understand.


Oh my, the National Team of a country of ~300.000 habitants is taking them out.
I have to watch that, perhaps that helps me deal with my late Argentina-Chile sourness.


----------



## vayanui8 (Jun 27, 2016)

So apparently alot of the false votes for a second referendum was part of a 4chan prank
http://heatst.com/uk/exclusive-brexit-2nd-referendum-petition-a-4-chan-prank-bbc-report-it-as-real/


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

vayanui8 said:


> So apparently alot of the false votes for a second referendum was part of a 4chan prank
> http://heatst.com/uk/exclusive-brexit-2nd-referendum-petition-a-4-chan-prank-bbc-report-it-as-real/



Doesn't surprise me. The petition is not binding (as is the referendum by UK constitution by the way) and doesn't have any way to check whether petitioners are UK citizens or not. Perfect 4chan bait.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 27, 2016)

Take, for instance, anything FOX news says. If you blindly believe anything they air just because they have "video evidence," you're an idiot. Video can be tampered with just as easily as anything else, and even if it isn't it is still very easy to blow it out of proportion by leaving out information or claiming things that don't apply to the video


----------



## Viri (Jun 27, 2016)

Any online petition can be manipulated and should not be taken srs enough that it can determine the future of a country. It's honestly too easy to manipulate.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

BREXIT #2 complete before BREXIT #1. No stalling on this one...


----------



## vayanui8 (Jun 27, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Take, for instance, anything FOX news says. If you blindly believe anything they air just because they have "video evidence," you're an idiot. Video can be tampered with just as easily as anything else, and even if it isn't it is still very easy to blow it out of proportion by leaving out information or claiming things that don't apply to the video


I don't think we should blindly trust any news source. While some may be more reliable than others, pretty much any source proves itself to be biased in one way or another.


----------



## DjoeN (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> BREXIT #2 complete before BREXIT #1. No stalling on this one...


Now we only need Wales to follow the English with BREXIT #2 this friday


----------



## vayanui8 (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> It's not only tampering. Showing an untampered video out of context can be used to mislead people as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think theres merit to having a wide variety of sources. Sometimes even a bad source will have good information. This especially applies to youtube. Youtube may have alot of BS on it, but it also has a massive selection. Sometimes it can have actual footage, and other times it can  be a good medium for expressing someones views. Just because it may not always be reliable doesn't mean it never is. Its better to see an argument from all sides rather than just one. By seeing opposing viewpoints you can gain newfound respect and understanding for them rather than just looking down on them.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 27, 2016)

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36640889

We will have a new PM by September 2nd.


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

mech said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36640889
> 
> We will have a new PM by September 2nd.



Why the delay? #BREGRET? Stalling?


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> You should take a look at this, we are not in the United States:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom



Who did I say I hate? I think you guys are trying to hard, I'm not seeing any of your posts adding anything to the thread so I'm sure a mod will delete them


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 27, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Why the delay? #BREGRET? Stalling?


I think it's just bureaucracy


mech said:


> I think you guys are trying to hard


*wink*


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 27, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I think it's just bureaucracy



The OUT Campaign promised to "trigger article 50" the day after the referendum. Now not only the Prime Minister, but the BREXIT people are stalling. They probably all thought they'd never win. Again England (not the UK) is causing trouble for everyone else like a spoiled child.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mech said:


> Who did I say I hate? I think you guys are trying to hard, I'm not seeing any of your posts adding anything to the thread so I'm sure a mod will delete them



Read the article. You should probably read more in general. And tabloids don't count.


----------



## mightymuffy (Jun 27, 2016)

Well Roy Hodgson has also just resigned... Clearly the Leave voters were right, there's plenty new jobs available....!


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jun 28, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> Then you didn't read my posts, I said that some of these cases were uncovered as hoaxes and some were out of context.


You haven't demonstrated this, but even if what're you're claiming is true, how does that make the argument itself invalid? You yourself are saying that not all of the cases are untrue, and hence there is something to be said for it.



Uwabami said:


> And he pretended (just like the illegal forum he linked to) that ONLY foreigners are rapists by OMISSION.


This is unbelievable grasping at straws, to be honest. Is no one allowed to mention any crimes committed by migrants because that would be racist "by omission"? Nothing he said claimed or even implied or suggested that only foreigners are rapists, that is categorically untrue and it is intellectually dishonest for you to even claim that he believes that.



Uwabami said:


> You can't be serious. Just take the video about Merkel and Cologne, there was almost nothing truthful in there. And the tone is more that obvious.


Last time I checked, even if it is shown to be untrue, that doesn't necessarily make it illegal.



Uwabami said:


> I hope you're proud of yourself defending racist propaganda.


You have not been able to demonstrate how it is racist at all. Do you dismiss anything that goes against your worldview as being "propaganda"?


----------



## Viri (Jun 28, 2016)

Shut up guys, did you not read his post?




Uwabami said:


> I hope the mods will shut this down soon, or I will report this to the authorities. I know the owner of this forum lives in the UK and this clearly violates UK/EU law.



He's gonna call the cops on us!


----------



## WolfSaviorZX (Jun 28, 2016)

Deleted


----------



## ertaboy356b (Jun 28, 2016)

It's funny that Non UK people also votes. lol


----------



## WolfSaviorZX (Jun 28, 2016)

Deleted


----------



## Uwabami (Jun 28, 2016)

WolfSaviorZX said:


> True but Brexit may lead to more nations leaving the EU and killing the EU altogether. If France leaves, I don't see how all the small nations would like to be ruled almost exclusively by Germany. Border wall would for sure help, right now the issue is Border Control is under staffed (there is already portions of a Border Fence built but not enough). The Tunnels are only a minor issue, and if Border Control is less stressed to control above ground, they will be more focused on underground invasions (which will be a lot slower and much easier to detect).


Don't hold your breath for that. They will not leave the EU, there's no majority for that in France. Same goes for Italy, their constitution even forbids referendums on that. I don't even know why you would want that, this would be bad for the US as well, because their biggest allies would decent into chaos.

And regarding your wall: If people come in as tourists and overstay, your wall won't help. Statistics say this is the major entry point.


----------



## AkGBA (Jun 28, 2016)

Thanx @Costello for the cleaning.


----------



## Costello (Jun 28, 2016)

as I said this thread will stay open as long as there are things to say about it. I had to do a bit of clean up though.

I won't let anyone dictate how this forum should be governed. This place is for discussion, if we lock discussion threads to prevent discussion what's even the fucking point?

I have already stated my personal opinion. I am profoundly pro-Europe, anti-racism, anti-fascism, I married a woman from a country that is 5000 miles away from my own, so I cannot stand the hatred between people. While I believe my values and opinions are true and righteous, that does NOT mean I should prevent other people from expressing their own point of views (within the boundaries of the law indeed).

Uwabami, you get a one-day suspension for being a complete moron and threatening to "report the site to the authorities". The posts that were deemed offensive have been removed. And to anyone dissatisfied by the fact that we weren't quicker to remove these posts: all mods are volunteers, we don't get paid to do this, so if there is no one around at the time the posts aren't going to remove themselves.

Again please stay civil to each other or we will start to hand out harsher warnings.


----------



## WolfSaviorZX (Jun 28, 2016)

Deleted


----------



## brickmii82 (Jun 28, 2016)

Costello said:


> as I said this thread will stay open as long as there are things to say about it. I had to do a bit of clean up though.
> 
> I won't let anyone dictate how this forum should be governed. This place is for discussion, if we lock discussion threads to prevent discussion what's even the fucking point?
> 
> ...


I agree and appreciate your decision. I have a question though, why was my post about the region being alright regardless of outcome deemed off-topic and/or offensive? Any ways, again, UK/Britain/England... Hell, Europe has been through much harsher, more volatile, much more dangerous and tougher ordeals than Brexit. They/you are a tough people. All Europeans are. You deserve more credit than what you're allowing yourselves to have. One day, I hope to explore your amazing cultures throughout Europe. French, English, Itailian, German, Dutch... You all have extensive histories that you've grown from! This will just be another period of change. You'll be OK.


----------



## Costello (Jun 28, 2016)

brickmii82 said:


> I agree and appreciate your decision. I have a question though, why was my post about the region being alright regardless of outcome deemed off-topic and/or offensive? Any ways, again, UK/Britain/England... Hell, Europe has been through much harsher, more volatile, much more dangerous and tougher ordeals than Brexit. They/you are a tough people. All Europeans are. You deserve more credit than what you're allowing yourselves to have. One day, I hope to explore your amazing cultures throughout Europe. French, English, Itailian, German, Dutch... You all have extensive histories that you've grown from! This will just be another period of change. You'll be OK.


well I might have gotten a little carried away with all those posts to delete, anything slightly off topic got caught in the shit storm

edit: hmm and now this very post is off topic. If you have any further question about moderation take it to a PM.


----------



## Flame (Jun 28, 2016)

Im laughing at people who are "upset" that Farage promised £350m for the NHS, Now his backing down and saying other crap.


well dipsits.

Hitler promised not to invade Czechoslovakia . Welcome to the real world.


----------



## Deleted-355425 (Jun 30, 2016)

S&P cuts rating on EU to 'AA' after Brexit.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...gn=Feed:+reuters/businessNews+(Business+News)


----------



## brickmii82 (Jun 30, 2016)

mech said:


> S&P cuts rating on EU to 'AA' after Brexit.
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-rating-s-p-idUSKCN0ZG2LS?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Feed:+reuters/businessNews+(Business+News)


Damn. UK got hit too. They're just knee-jerk reactions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ya.../p-cuts-u-k-top-175639590.html?client=safari#


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## emigre (Jun 30, 2016)

This referendum has sent the country to the shit. BoJo who played a big part in creating the mess now doesn't want to clean it. The UK is going to the dogs.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



mightymuffy said:


> Well Roy Hodgson has also just resigned... Clearly the Leave voters were right, there's plenty new jobs available....!



Woy had an plan when he exited Europe, shame the Leave campaign didn't.


----------



## Engert (Jun 30, 2016)

emigre said:


> This referendum has sent the country to the shit. BoJo who played a big part in creating the mess now doesn't want to clean it. The UK is going to the dogs.
> .



I gotta say, I was happy for Uk but the lack of confidence from the Brexit camp doesn't seem very inspiring.
Farage is the only one I still like and I especially loved his EU speech where he told everyone to go fuck themselves.


----------



## emigre (Jun 30, 2016)

Engert said:


> I gotta say, I was happy for Uk but the lack of confidence from the Brexit camp doesn't seem very inspiring.
> Farage is the only one I still like and I especially loved his EU speech where he told everyone to go fuck themselves.



I hope Farage is fucked to death by a Belgian horse. The guy is an utter cunt who behavior legitamises racism.


----------



## Engert (Jun 30, 2016)

emigre said:


> I hope Farage is fucked to death by a Belgian horse. The guy is an utter cunt who behavior legitamises racism.



Bullshit. That guy is dead on but I don't like when he said that all the money that goes to EU will still go to EU and the immigration laws won't change for now. It's like wtf? That was your campaign message you liar!


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 1, 2016)

Engert said:


> That guy is dead on


Explain?


----------



## Engert (Jul 1, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Explain?



Okay, there's three problems with most politicians.
They lie.
They are inexperienced.
They are out of touch with common man in the street.

Due to discontent from the masses regarding globalism, a new trend of politicians like Farage or Trump have emerged where they are more in touch with the common man on the street than other politicians but they still lie and they are inexperienced. 

Farage wants an identity for UK, an independent political system from EU and better trade deals which should benefit the people of UK. This is where he's dead on.
These all sound like good ideals and they are but then the other two traits of politicians kick in. 
First is the inexperience. His party is in complete disarray and they don't know what to do now that they won. Half of them have resigned and the can't get their shit together. Not a very good vote of confidence for everyone watching these developments.
Then there are the lies.
U.K. Already sends money to EU. Brexit vote promised that this money would stop going to EU. Now that they won they say that the money would still go to EU. That's one lie. The other is related to immigration. They promised they'd stop immigration but now they're saying that there'll be no changes in immigration. 
So politicians are scum but mostly in countries where politics are considered a career and not public service.


----------



## emigre (Jul 1, 2016)

Entertainment, I mean this in a nice way. You hanger no idea on what you're talking about.


----------



## Engert (Jul 1, 2016)

You're a split country now after this vote emigre but what's your take on the situation?


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jul 1, 2016)

Uwabami's still at it, I see. Also, this is directed at Uwabami, a screenshot from TMNT GBA:






Yes, Rocky, let's go the distance!


----------



## mocalacace (Jul 2, 2016)

The fear mongering comes from those with the most to lose.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 2, 2016)

mocalacace said:


> The fear mongering comes from those with the most to lose.


I'd argue that it most definitely comes from those with the least to lose, unless I'm misunderstanding you


----------



## mocalacace (Jul 3, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'd argue that it most definitely comes from those with the least to lose, unless I'm misunderstanding you


I was talking about the elite, MSM, and leftists.


----------



## AkGBA (Jul 3, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> There is trolling, bullying and hate speech. How the hell would they tell the difference between the three? They can't. It'd be based on guesses.
> 
> Safe space is an illusion.



Man... You got weird sources.
Anyway, hate speech is "all conduct publicly inciting to violence or hatred directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, color, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin".

Can't you tell the difference with trolling ?


----------



## Engert (Jul 3, 2016)

The definition of hate speech two posts above is correct but what's annoying is when people want a stop to immigration and than the whole nation is labeled racist. Are you fucking kidding me people?


----------



## AkGBA (Jul 3, 2016)

Engert said:


> The definition of hate speech two posts above is correct but what's annoying is when people want a stop to immigration and than the whole nation is labeled racist. Are you fucking kidding me people?



Well, there's a link. See the rise of racist incidents starting the day after the brexit vote.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jul 3, 2016)

AkGBA said:


> Well, there's a link. See the rise of racist incidents starting the day after the brexit vote.


You can thank the EU for the screw up that Europe's in today.


----------



## Engert (Jul 3, 2016)

AkGBA said:


> Well, there's a link. See the rise of racist incidents starting the day after the brexit vote.



That tends to happen when you have an open-door, uncontrollable, unrestricted immigration policy. People get fed up because their jobs are disappearing due to the global economy. That's why they voted Brexit. Because of NAFTA, people in the mid-west United States lost tens of thousands of jobs.Instead of talking like an idealist think of it this way. 
Your neighbor has no house (because of fire, flooding or whatever). You being a good neighbor invite him and his family in your house until his house is repaired.
This seems like the right thing to do, i agree. But think of this on a larger scale now. All your neighbours have no houses because of a flood and your house survive. Would you take them all in? Would this put a strain on your living space, not to mention food? Also think of something else. Some of your neighbors not only that they don't appreciate your hospitality but they are rude to you in your house and some of them even get violent. 
This is how countries work, so please don't speak like an idealist but be more practical. Think of your house/country first then start being generous to your neighbors/countries.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 3, 2016)

mocalacace said:


> I was talking about the elite, MSM, *and leftists*.


Dang right they got the most to lose, they're typically the ones that have to live with whatever decisions are made for the longest amount of time


----------



## Gingerbread Crumb (Jul 3, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Dang right they got the most to lose, they're typically the ones that have to live with whatever decisions are made for the longest amount of time


Most of them should have got off their asses and voted if they didn't like the decision. Hopefully the ones that didn't vote or care are the ones that aren't complaining about the outcome. Oh wait.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 3, 2016)

Gingerbread Crumb said:


> Most of them should have got off their asses and voted if they didn't like the decision. Hopefully the ones that didn't vote or care are the ones that aren't complaining about the outcome. Oh wait.


If we're being honest most of the ones that didn't vote probably didn't even know what the referendum was. (The UK Google search statistics definitely back this up in the DAYS before the vote, and even immediately following)


----------



## Blaze163 (Jul 3, 2016)

There are good points on both sides, but it seems to me a lot of the points in favour of leaving are motivated by tabloid-fed fear and racism. Delusional thoughts that it'd get all immigrants to leave and Britain would be just for the British again. I'm sure there are some economic reasons to leave too, but to me it's better the devil you know. 

Still too early to tell of course, but I'm already seeing knuckle-dragging wankers yelling at any non-white in the street telling them it's 'time to go' and chanting 'England Til I Die'. Ironically while wearing England football shirts made in Taiwan, drinking cheap Swedish lager, wearing trainers from China and watching their precious football on a Japanese TV. Because apparently switching their brains on runs the batteries down or something.


----------



## Gingerbread Crumb (Jul 3, 2016)

Blaze163 said:


> There are good points on both sides, but it seems to me a lot of the points in favour of leaving are motivated by tabloid-fed fear and racism. Delusional thoughts that it'd get all immigrants to leave and Britain would be just for the British again. I'm sure there are some economic reasons to leave too, but to me it's better the devil you know.
> 
> Still too early to tell of course, but I'm already seeing knuckle-dragging wankers yelling at any non-white in the street telling them it's 'time to go' and chanting 'England Til I Die'. Ironically while wearing England football shirts made in Taiwan, drinking cheap Swedish lager, wearing trainers from China and watching their precious football on a Japanese TV. Because apparently switching their brains on runs the batteries down or something.


If these claims are true this is an example of idiots. Like any other group there will always be idiots. It doesn't necessarily mean that, that group or that idea is racist. Unless that idea or group is actually racist.


----------



## Engert (Jul 3, 2016)

Which is why I mentioned earlier that the party who lead the Brexit campaign are completely confused and don't know what to do now that they won. Instead of moving swiftly with a plan, they're actually lying now to the people who voted for them on fundamental promises like the immigration. 
I think with globalization, things would have to get a lot worse before anyone can come up with a better system that works for its citizens.


----------



## Armadillo (Jul 4, 2016)

Engert said:


> That tends to happen when you have an open-door, uncontrollable, unrestricted immigration policy. People get fed up because their jobs are disappearing due to the global economy. That's why they voted Brexit.



But Brexit will do nothing for what they have a problem with.

A huge amount of the immigration to the UK is from non-eu countries, which is done via a point system. Something the EU has no say in & could have been tightened up at any point.

EU immigration.

Leave campaign said we can leave and still have access to the EU single market, and get a deal like Norway. Norway's deal has..free movement of people.

Access to the single market=free movement of people. Comes as a package deal, EU has been very clear on this in the past.

So it's either:

Join the single market & free movement of people.
Stay out of it, fully control borders.

Staying out is not likely to happen, one of the points of the leave campaign was we can stay in it, while leaving the EU.

So in the end, it's likely nothing will be done at all about EU immigration and we also lose any say we have in the EU. Doesn't seem like a very good thing to vote for, if that was your main reason.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jul 4, 2016)

Blaze163 said:


> Delusional thoughts that it'd get all immigrants to leave


That's not going to happen and it's not the issue.


----------



## WeedZ (Jul 4, 2016)

Engert said:


> That tends to happen when you have an open-door, uncontrollable, unrestricted immigration policy. People get fed up because their jobs are disappearing due to the global economy.



Of course an American would bring up job loss to immigration. I haven't really been following European politics, but I can tell you that immigration has little to do with job loss, and I doubt it has much to do with leaving the EU. Take our immigration policies here in the US for example. There's alot of propaganda that Mexicans are coming here illegally and taking jobs. Which is why we need a wall.  But the reality is businesses are outsourcing the majority of unskilled labor to China. Mexicans will work for a few dollars less, since they aren't required to pay taxes on a work visa, but chinese will work for pennies. Honestly, it says more about your lack of skill then it does immigration policy if you're concerned that the company you work for are willing to commit fraud to replace you with an illegally hired immigrant.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jul 4, 2016)

WeedZ said:


> ~snip~


I'm pretty sure you just made an argument _for _combating and reducing [illegal] immigration, and/or open borders. Unless, of course, you're fine with large companies exploiting workers? You do realise that not all people have a wealth of education and/or experience, the jobs that don't require either still need to be done, and that the people doing these jobs deserve to be given a fair wage, right?



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Dang right they got the most to lose, they're typically the ones that have to live with whatever decisions are made for the longest amount of time


Not all (or arguably even most, depending on where you live) young people are leftists, and not all older people are centre-right/right-wing. How much of a bubble do you have to live in in order to believe this?


----------



## DjoeN (Jul 4, 2016)

Now that it's the 4th of july!

Britain had better waited till today to vote!
Then they could celebrate the same day, the same independendce day as the Americans (wouldn't that be ironic  )
- 4th of july, the day the American independence declaration was adopted!
- 4th of july, the day the English broke free from the EU 

Anyway, Happy 4th of July to all Americans


----------



## Engert (Jul 4, 2016)

Armadillo said:


> But Brexit will do nothing for what they have a problem with.
> 
> A huge amount of the immigration to the UK is from non-eu countries, which is done via a point system. Something the EU has no say in & could have been tightened up at any point.
> 
> ...



Exactly, and that's because the labor party is in total meltdown and with no plan whatsoever ,but if it was me leading the labor party the first thing I'd do is invoke the article to leave the Eu and the second thing would be to stop all immigration immediately and start negotiating trade deals which would work for UK. There plenty of countries who would want to trade with England. USA is one of them. And if countries don't want to trade with England? Even better, I'd make things in England and create jobs, and thing like tvs or shirts which are made in China (like one poster said above in this thread) those things would proudly say "Made in UK".

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



WeedZ said:


> Of course an American would bring up job loss to immigration. I haven't really been following European politics, but I can tell you that immigration has little to do with job loss, and I doubt it has much to do with leaving the EU. Take our immigration policies here in the US for example. There's alot of propaganda that Mexicans are coming here illegally and taking jobs. Which is why we need a wall.  But the reality is businesses are outsourcing the majority of unskilled labor to China. Mexicans will work for a few dollars less, since they aren't required to pay taxes on a work visa, but chinese will work for pennies. Honestly, it says more about your lack of skill then it does immigration policy if you're concerned that the company you work for are willing to commit fraud to replace you with an illegally hired immigrant.



The situation in USA is different to Europe. First you can't really stop immigration to preserve the American way of life because America is made of immigrants. The only thing you can do is to have controlled immigration which would improve a lot the life of all immigrants here.
But what's similar is globalization. Instead of slapping the fucking Chinese with huge tariffs, our government has no penalties whatsoever for American companies exporting their manufacturing jobs to China and because the rich want to get reacher with nafta deals, whole towns in Ohio have disappeared and they're now ghost towns. 
Imagine, whole families and way of life gone because of asshole politicians in Capitol Hill.

Here's the take of a British guy in Ohio : http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-35653619


----------



## WeedZ (Jul 4, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> I'm pretty sure you just made an argument _for _combating and reducing [illegal] immigration, and/or open borders. Unless, of course, you're fine with large companies exploiting workers? You do realise that not all people have a wealth of education and/or experience, the jobs that don't require either still need to be done, and that the people doing these jobs deserve to be given a fair wage, right?
> 
> 
> Not all (or arguably even most, depending on where you live) young people are leftists, and not all older people are centre-right/right-wing. How much of a bubble do you have to live in in order to believe this?


Of course people deserve a fair wage for the work they do. Even with strict immigration policies, and laws against employing illegals, corporations will still outsource labor to countries that can do the job cheaper, particularly china. Immigration and job loss are not related issues. That was my arguement.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jul 4, 2016)

WeedZ said:


> Even with strict immigration policies, and laws against employing illegals, corporations will still outsource labor to countries that can do the job cheaper, particularly china. Immigration and job loss are not related issues. That was my arguement.


Of course many corporations have and will outsource labour to China, but the fact remains that there are many companies who profit off paying illegal immigrants very low wages. If these illegal immigrants did not have access to these jobs (i.e. by better denying or preventing their entrance into the country to begin with), then these jobs could be given to citizens, residents or working migrants with fair wages, as the companies would be unable to underpay these people.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jul 4, 2016)

DjoeN said:


> Now that it's the 4th of july!
> 
> Britain had better waited till today to vote!
> Then they could celebrate the same day, the same independendce day as the Americans (wouldn't that be ironic  )
> ...


"Funny"



Engert said:


> America is made of immigrants.


Yep. People are what makes a country work and move forward whether they were born there or immigrants but what about illegal immigrants and criminals, as well as freeloaders? This is why control needs to be applied so there's less probability of something harmful happening.

Btw, homeless folks are an issue that the govt doesn't seem to care about and passers-by tend to ignore because you don't really know if they're pretending to be homeless or they actually are. Never mind taking them to your own house as that would be a huge risk 'cause you'd know nothing about the person.


----------



## WeedZ (Jul 4, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> Of course many corporations have and will outsource labour to China, but the fact remains that there are many companies who profit off paying illegal immigrants very low wages. If these illegal immigrants did not have access to these jobs (i.e. by better denying or preventing their entrance into the country to begin with), then these jobs could be given to citizens, residents or working migrants with fair wages, as the companies would be unable to underpay these people.


They wouldn't have access to those jobs if they enforced labor laws better. I also believe in worker's unions, something our government has been trying to outlaw, when it comes to ensuring fair wages.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I think immigration policy is something to stir patriotism/racism and distract people from more important issues.


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jul 4, 2016)

WeedZ said:


> They wouldn't have access to those jobs if they enforced labor laws better. I also believe in worker's unions, something our government has been trying to outlaw, when it comes to ensuring fair wages.


I see combating illegal immigration and enforcing labour laws as being two sides of the same coin.



> I think immigration policy is something to stir patriotism/racism and distract people from more important issues.


You're welcome to think that, but many many many people disagree and see immigration as a set of very important issues in themselves. Patriotism and criticism of open borders aren't racist, and neither is inherently bad.


----------



## WeedZ (Jul 4, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> I see combating illegal immigration and enforcing labour laws as being two sides of the same coin.
> 
> 
> You're welcome to think that, but many many many people disagree and see immigration as a set of very important issues in themselves. Patriotism and criticism of open borders aren't racist, and neither is inherently bad.


Sorry, I didn't mean to compare patriotism and racism. I was simply saying that topics of immigration can fuel one or both of these things. Of course, which ones depends on the individual. Racism is rampant here when we debate immigration.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

But I do see patriotism as a bad thing. It promotes segregation. Should I feel proud that I just so happen to have been born in the us? Is the us the best country in the world? Of course not. There are things I do like about this country though. We have all sorts of terrain which is kinda cool. Deserts to the west, plains in central united states, mountains to the north/east, etc. I'm assuming that the brexit has put limitations on your free travel in Europe as well, so what do you have? Water to the east, water to the west. You guys segregated yourselves to an island.


----------



## Pleng (Jul 4, 2016)

Uwabami said:


> The OUT Campaign promised to "trigger article 50" the day after the referendum




Do you have a source to verify this? Or are you just one amongst a bunch of morons who had no idea whsr they were actually voting for?



mocalacace said:


> The fear mongering comes from those with the most to lose.



No. Ironically those with the *most* to lose were the very same people who voted *to* lose it.

Absolute insanity.




Saiyan Lusitano said:


> That's not... the issue.



Yea. Have you told the voters that?


----------



## Engert (Jul 4, 2016)

WeedZ said:


> But I do see patriotism as a bad thing. It promotes segregation. Should I feel proud that I just so happen to have been born in the us? Is the us the best country in the world? Of course not. There are things I do like about this country though. We have all sorts of terrain which is kinda cool. Deserts to the west, plains in central united states, mountains to the north/east, etc. I'm assuming that the brexit has put limitations on your free travel in Europe as well, so what do you have? Water to the east, water to the west. You guys segregated yourselves to an island.



It's easy for a lot of people to confuse dumb/stupid unfounded pride with National prosperity which creates a more humble pride. The campaign of any politician should not be " 'Murica the best country in the world " or " UK is the best " but to take care of its citizens first. Very few countries take care of its citizens now. 

US was the best country in the world from 1950 - 1970 where 90% of things were made in USA and it had the economic, technological and cultural superiority than anyone else. Notice the correlation between ' Things made in USA" with prosperity.  Since then we have lost the moral ground, we have done shitty things to many nations, we are not the leaders anymore in most things and we just keep getting worse with more unemployment and people who live in the streets. 
Having said that (I've done my fair share of traveling around the world) USA is still a lot better than most countries i have visited in South America and in Europe. 
Things are a lot easier and more practical in US than any countries i have visited. 
So if you ask me if i'm proud to be born in US, i'd say NO but i wouldn't  live anywhere else besides here. What makes a country cool is not just the geography, buildings but its way of life and the people. There are things that i like in US which i can't find anywhere else. 
So if i go to England i'd like to see a British way of life and if i go to a remote place in South America i'd like to see a unique way of life there and i don't want to see globalization like Coca Cola, ATM machines and Wells Fargo banks.
The problem with US or countries like England is that you have horrible politicians who don't give a shit about you or me but only care about themselves. If they cared about the people you'd see that would only promote unity and not segregation. Because with prosperity comes happiness and less crime.
Nigel Farage quit by the way, that's how much of spineless assholes these politicians are.


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jul 4, 2016)

Just like to point out that this is the day America celebrates Brexiting before it was cool.


----------



## Saiyan Lusitano (Jul 4, 2016)

Pleng said:


> Yea. Have you told the voters that?


You're now just generalising it.



JoostinOnline said:


> Just like to point out that this is the day America celebrates Brexiting before it was cool.


Another user that thinks it's a funny joke mentioning it.


----------



## grossaffe (Jul 4, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Another user that thinks it's a funny joke mentioning it.


don't be such a stick in the mud.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 4, 2016)

So Nigel Frarage just abandoned ship like the little bitch he is


----------



## Pleng (Jul 5, 2016)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> You're now just generalising




Not really. Surveys in the lead up to the vote were pretty consistent in showing immigration as the main issue.

Let's put it another way. If the immigration 'issue' had been solved already, do you honestly think 'OUT' would have won?


----------



## Xiphiidae (Jul 5, 2016)

Engert said:


> Nigel Farage quit by the way, that's how much of spineless assholes these politicians are.





TotalInsanity4 said:


> So Nigel Frarage just abandoned ship like the little bitch he is


The entire raison d'être of him and his party was, believe it or not, 'UK Independence'. That was accomplished (I suppose), so of course he'd resign. Why would he not? His role was just to campaign for UK leaving the EU; he has never been in a position to have any control on what happens after.


----------



## Costello (Jul 5, 2016)

Xiphiidae said:


> The entire raison d'être of him and his party was, believe it or not, 'UK Independence'. That was accomplished (I suppose), so of course he'd resign. Why would he not? His role was just to campaign for UK leaving the EU; he has never been in a position to have any control on what happens after.


Come on... If he had honestly announced before the brexit campaign "I'm just campaigning for Brexit and I'm quitting afterwards" nobody would have taken him seriously. Everyone was assuming he would endorse some form of leadership in case of a win. Farage or at least Bojo.

This just goes to show they didn't think they would win and didn't plan the aftermath.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 5, 2016)

Costello said:


> Xiphiidae said:
> 
> 
> > The entire raison d'être of him and his party was, believe it or not, 'UK Independence'. That was accomplished (I suppose), so of course he'd resign. Why would he not? His role was just to campaign for UK leaving the EU; he has never been in a position to have any control on what happens after.
> ...


Exactly. Plus, I dunno if you recall, but Farage made a bunch of promises as to what would happen if the UK left the EU. It's kind of difficult to keep them when you're running for the hills away from any kind of leadership position


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## amoulton (Jul 5, 2016)

I'm sorry mandating micro USB while claiming EU countries are sovereign is willful idiocy.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 5, 2016)

amoulton said:


> I'm sorry mandating micro USB while claiming EU countries are sovereign is willful idiocy.


Erm


----------



## amoulton (Jul 5, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Erm


Yeah I said it- that is where they crossed the line into power-hungry unelected dictators.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 5, 2016)

amoulton said:


> Yeah I said it- that is where they crossed the line into power-hungry unelected dictators.


?? Explain, I'm officially lost


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## amoulton (Jul 5, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> ?? Explain, I'm officially lost


The EU mandated that all mobile phone have micro-usb. It's madness- I mean if people don't want freedom, at least let them vote in the people who strip the freedoms.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 5, 2016)

amoulton said:


> The EU mandated that all mobile phone have micro-usb. It's madness- I mean if people don't want freedom, at least let them vote in the people who strip the freedoms.


I mean it's always nice to have a universal standard. The only reason that could even be seen as a problem is that Type C just came out and will be popular in a bit


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## amoulton (Jul 5, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I mean it's always nice to have a universal standard. The only reason that could even be seen as a problem is that Type C just came out and will be popular in a bit


Variety is the spice of life- democracy on the other hand- is priceless. I don't disagree that a universal standard is *handy* but they should at least have held a vote on what it would be- or amass a consortium of tech professionals to create a new standard rather than selecting a one standard that *some* companies already use, and placing an undue burden on any companies that don't already use an inexplicably flimsy connector. The fact that EU reps are unelected and give nations no choice but to adopt their standards seems heinous from an [one] American perspective.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 5, 2016)

amoulton said:


> Variety is the spice of life- democracy on the other hand- is priceless. I don't disagree that a universal standard is *handy* but they should at least have held a vote on what it would be- or amass a consortium of tech professionals to create a new standard rather than selecting a one standard that *some* companies already use, and placing an undue burden on any companies that don't already use an inexplicably flimsy connector. The fact that EU reps are unelected and give nations no choice but to adopt their standards seems heinous from an [one] American perspective.


I don't think you quite understand how widespread micro USB is. It's literally only inconveniencing Apple (someone out there probably gives a shit) and the companies that still use weird proprietary connectors that make it so you have to pay extra if you lose your charging cable (trust me, no one gives a shut about those)

Think of it this way: the Universal Serial Bus standard was never invented. Computers today use different connectors from each other to transfer data and every storage company has a proprietary connector on their devices. This means that you have to buy adapters of shady quality in some cases because there are unsupported connection combinations. This is an extreme example, but it's a good way of showing why universal standards are very necessary, especially in the tech world


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## vayanui8 (Jul 5, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I don't think you quite understand how widespread micro USB is. It's literally only inconveniencing Apple (someone out there probably gives a shit) and the companies that still use weird proprietary connectors that make it so you have to pay extra if you lose your charging cable (trust me, no one gives a shut about those)
> 
> Think of it this way: the Universal Serial Bus standard was never invented. Computers today use different connectors from each other to transfer data and every storage company has a proprietary connector on their devices. This means that you have to buy adapters of shady quality in some cases because there are unsupported connection combinations. This is an extreme example, but it's a good way of showing why universal standards are very necessary, especially in the tech world


Universal standards are convenient, but by enforcing them by law you create a number of issues. While this may seem convenient now, it creates a number of issues later. For example, let's say I invent a new type of connector that is more convenient that micro USB. Wireless charging for example. If this becomes the standard everywhere else, the EU is now lagging behind. They are then forced to change the law which can take time and create a greater inconvenience for consumers and companies alike. The problem with laws like this isn't that a universal standard is bad, it's that it's unnecessary. There's no real benefit to these laws other than reducing competition. Unless you have a really great product you aren't going to be able to sell it if it goes against the universal standard. It's an unneeded piece of legislation that isn't helping anyone now and can only inconvenience people in the future if a new, better alternative is created


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## Jayro (Jul 5, 2016)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Welp, Great Britain just fucked themselves


They are no longer great, they have to earn that title back. This is the first time in history that "pulling out" _wasn't_ a good idea.


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## Pleng (Jul 6, 2016)

amoulton said:


> The EU mandated that all mobile phone have micro-usb. It's madness- I mean if people don't want freedom, at least let them vote in the people who strip the freedoms.



So how comes Apple are still selling products within the EU?
Can you provide a source for this so called EU mandate?


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## amoulton (Jul 6, 2016)

Pleng said:


> So how comes Apple are still selling products within the EU?
> Can you provide a source for this so called EU mandate?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=EU+micro+usb+law
They're allowed to contiune doing business in the EU by producing this piece of e-waste.
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD820AM/A/lightning-to-micro-usb-adapter


vayanui8 said:


> Universal standards are convenient, but by enforcing them by law you create a number of issues.


Exactly, USB existed and was deployed ubiquitously without any creepy galactic council oppressing you into it.


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## emigre (Jul 6, 2016)

amoulton said:


> Variety is the spice of life- democracy on the other hand- is priceless. I don't disagree that a universal standard is *handy* but they should at least have held a vote on what it would be- or amass a consortium of tech professionals to create a new standard rather than selecting a one standard that *some* companies already use, and placing an undue burden on any companies that don't already use an inexplicably flimsy connector. The fact that EU reps are unelected and give nations no choice but to adopt their standards seems heinous from an [one] American perspective.



The push towards universal cables is godsend on the consumer level.  When I had a OnePlus One, colleagues with Samsung phones and I would be able to share a cable back and forth. That's great for a consumer and I give them unelected Brussel people props for that.

In terms of what is truly heinous, I think going to war on sexed up charges is more akin to that to provide some perspective. I cannae blame them dirty Europeans for the biggest cock up in British foreign policy.


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## amoulton (Jul 6, 2016)

emigre said:


> The push towards universal cables is godsend on the consumer level.  When I had a OnePlus One, colleagues with Samsung phones and I would be able to share a cable back and forth. That's great for a consumer and I give them unelected Brussel people props for that.
> 
> In terms of what is truly heinous, I think going to war on sexed up charges is more akin to that to provide some perspective. I cannae blame them dirty Europeans for the biggest cock up in British foreign policy.


You're right Iraq is completely stable and in no way in need of a military intervention.


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## AkGBA (Jul 6, 2016)

amoulton said:


> You're right Iraq is completely stable and in no way in need of a military intervention.



Do you understand he was talking about the situation BEFORE going to war against Saddam ?

And if you do, follow-up question about the military intervention you seem to think was needed : Do you think for a fact there was WMDs ? (that's it, I want to watch In The Loop again...).


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## Luanon (Mar 12, 2020)

KSP said:


> I'm not from UK, but isn't the whole EU thing just a little too gullible to really be sustainable?
> 
> Its like asking USA and Canada to share the same border and currency as Bangladesh. The various countries in the EU are just too wildly different in their level of development. I like going to Europe and using the same money across the board, but even I can sense that the union is a naive notion.



Indeed, it would be naive to do such thing in america where nothing is settled but it is also extremely naive to watch Europe under the same prism.
An american country will never feel that they have Country neighbours or even that they completely belong there (since they don’t), Europe has been developing and settling for millenia inventing and creating stuff such as their borders or your language.
You obviously can’t feel one with bangladesh (or mexico) since theyre a different race that could do to you what you did to the real americans but it turns out that where a race does belong a race doesn’t need to live in a constant defensive state and can move on to mutual respect with others.


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## notimp (Mar 12, 2020)

There is no such thing as a human race. (As a qualifier for attributes, morals or behavioral traits.)

The concept was first used to denote (common language and then) national affiliation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)

Nation is an invented concept.

So you are taking a term, thats was basically invented for PR and are attributing universal truths to it like it was physics, or a universal law. Then you use words like - 'obviously' to find excuses for why your personal brand of racism is socially accepted.

Categorize people by the cerial brands they buy next. Use obviously as well, just for good measure.

edit:

Especially in societies that have embraced niches as 'culturally unifying'. (That youtube channel about "nerf guns of a certain brand" with 1.5 mio followers, what race is the presenter there? Because you can obviously not 'feel one' with one of the other subscribers if you dont know what race he is... *sarc*)

Replace the word race with "tribe" - which also works in your example, and it becomes more obvious what you are doing.  Your argument might still work, but there is no 'universal law' ('godgiven') quality to it, that makes it 'obviously' correct.

(The power and embedded meaning of words - advanced level  )

Race is a social construct. As in 'someone made it up'. People later tried to give that concept a 'scientific underpinning' in the way you now try to use it (some forms of now rejected anthropology) and failed miserably.

It doesnt help that you mix it with 'blood and honor' terminology ("after centuries living on their 'motherland' a race can feel at home and become less stressed").

Were you reading grandgrandfathers book collection again?


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## Taleweaver (Mar 12, 2020)

Luanon said:


> Indeed, it would be naive to do such thing in america where nothing is settled but it is also extremely naive to watch Europe under the same prism.
> An american country will never feel that they have Country neighbours or even that they completely belong there (since they don’t), Europe has been developing and settling for millenia inventing and creating stuff such as their borders or your language.
> You obviously can’t feel one with bangladesh (or mexico) since theyre a different race that could do to you what you did to the real americans but it turns out that where a race does belong a race doesn’t need to live in a constant defensive state and can move on to mutual respect with others.


Ahem...small bit of info: that post is from 2016 (from before brexit was a fact, even). I'm not sure what you thought you were doing, but...I don't think it merits much follow-up at this point.


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## Xiphiidae (Mar 13, 2020)

notimp said:


> ~snip~


Question: are there genetic differences between different human populations that are related to ancestry?


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

Boy, the racists in here...


> However, because all populations are genetically diverse, and because there is a complex relation between ancestry, genetic makeup and phenotype, and because racial categories are based on subjective evaluations of the traits, there is no specific gene that can be used to determine a person's race


src: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics
Logic is none of your forte is it?

If something is an invented cultural concept. And was based on language and later nationality, and throughout time was asserted using (mostly self) attribution. How on earth would now genetics help to qualify it?

You cant say, no - no, what my greatgrandfather meant, was obviously genetics, before it was invented. He just done it by smell (/looking at a person), back then. He had to. Because it wasnt invented yet.

So if you want to be racist, yes - genetics might offer you a probability based way, using generalized estimations of potential cultural makeup, based on genetic markers, that can be used to identify regionality - in a probability based way.

So now you went through "race is whoever speaks our language", no, no - "wo is part of our nation" to no, no "who has genetic markers that are correlated with a certain region", ..

For what? Still to magically attribute character attributes to a concept made up by people centuries ago.

Also, there is no genetic definition of race. When you do surveys, you dont ask people for blood samples. To which you reply - "but you should" - because it gives me more of this 'godgiven certainty' quality in race theory, to be racist about?

So while humanity did it by language for centuries, and then switched to nationality, when that was invented, you now want to go with regional mutations that are not necessarily related to phenotype, and never to character traits, values, or a predisposition to 'feel relaxed in a country'? Because it would help you to make the distinction more clear cut?

While the entire world decided, no - thats actually a bad idea... (Thats actual history, not your rewritten story how the term race came to be.)

When did you become a Super-Nazi? And have you genetically tested all of your family members yet?

You cant reverse history from the point genetics were invented (because it sounds more scientific) and then insist, no no - the marker (artificially picked and placed, they just indicate if a certain sequence is there or not, so which one to pick? Headcircumference? Tonguelegth? (to refer back to now rejected anthropological ideas)) (regional mutations), thats race, obviously. No it isnt.

Could you also please stop to sell everyone on your personal race theory in a gaming forum? How often do I have to insist that you are racist, before you stop?

Also, if you still havent gotten it, the more 'clear cut' and 'by birth' you try to make your definition, the more problematic it becomes. Because at some point you then really might ask your friends or favorite youtuber for a saliva sample to sequence, before you can know if you should socialize (or god forbid, fuck) with them. And how you get from there to 'some motherland theory of feeling relaxed by being genetically at home' (notice the world feeling?) is yet another category of insane attribution jumps. If you want to be racist, just say to yourself - I want to be a racist. Dont try to wrap in science for your goal.


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## Xiphiidae (Mar 13, 2020)

notimp said:


> ~snip~


Your entire post is just one long, pathetic strawman. Please try to answer my original question, it's not a difficult one. 
Here's another easy question: why do people with sub-Saharan African ancestry look different to people with European ancestry?


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

Because of chance mutatation (happens in all life forms) and natural selection. I don't want to also explain Darwin to you.

And no, natural selection also isnt a "divine process" that produces better and not so good people, or people that obviously feel better, when they are amongst themselves, or in the 'right' continent. All of that - is you giving attributes to people based on, as we now know, looks (skincolor).

Also a strawman is an argument you yourself create, to then denounce, so you look like you are winning an argument.

I never created my own argument to then denounce it. I stepped through both of your logic.

Also I'm still not likely to get convinced argumentatively by someone flipping crude race theories ("But why do they look like that?!").

Because all that argument ever comes down to, is you not liking people (in your vicinity), because they look different.

So following your logic, we should now define race, by the genetic markers for skin color?

Take a clue.


edit:

Here is what you are doing in principle. If you still want me to take time to argue with racists.

The 'obviously' is a pretty good clue.

You take a man made concept. Race. Say that it is pretty 'science' (not naming which science, btw), which in our days, sometimes can be a stand in for "divine" (== dont ask further  ). Then say - because its obviously 'a thing' "I mean, look at dog races, right?" ((those large and non chance based mutations) where created through breeding focusing in on maximising certain mutations, so much higher variance in attributes), then forget that race even there is a substitute that was given to describe looks, not phenotype.

But you are making it an argument for why looks are the same as phenotype (here we are goin to the level you wanted, namely genetics). Which scientifically is wrong (looks /= phenotype).

And while phenotype never ever was equaling race in human history. And still isnt today.

Why you do that is, because you want an attribution for looks = 'behavior' so badly it hurts. But you cant say that openly, so you now need a helper construction, which is historically positively loaded (when you are talking about your own) which is tribe. Which later became race, btw mostly through the nation concept (as tribes grew bigger (learned how to sustain bigger tribe sizes)).

Darwin came after that, and just also used the word. So he is also not the origin of this 'divine authority figure' concept you are looking for to make it 'obviously' something.

That 'divine' concept for you mostly lies in culture (shared stories), btw. And it is also a clue how race as a concept was originally formed (language, and later PR).

Now lets say you successfully can make the argument that phenotype = race, which you cant - but colloquially - maybe.

Thats the best you ever can get to. All the other concepts. For why people of the same human race have the same phenotype (what about bloodtypes? In Japan there are cultural stories, that bloodtype is very important as an indicator for behavior - thats also just a shared story, you know?) and therefor likes/preferences, or behavior patterns, or cultural preferences are so obviously wrong it hurts. But thats also what you are mainly flogging ideologically. Thats already insanity and not wanted by mainstream culture today, for very obvious reasons. (How about air travel is a thing?) And if you then jump from that to 'well certain races obviously feel more relaxed in their motherland' thats so many steps removed from how reality, or even genetics/natural selection works (mutations over multiple decades), that the closest approximation to that argument is something like - "well obviously humans dont feel well, while driving in trains, because it is much faster, than they were supposed to move (genetically?)".

And if you want to do the same with skin pigment and sun intensity - let me just tell you that things like jackets and airconditioning do exist. And people dont have to wait for multiple generations and chance mutations to 'feel better' in Hawaii.

So if the main concept of that divine'/higher value concept, that you are looking for with that "well obviously this race...:" is cultural (comes from shared stories (first language, then PR)), then dont say it is looks - that translate into behavior - that translates into group preferences - and ultimately preferred region to live in for that race in the world.

Because every single jump there is voluntary and not proven by something like science at all. Someone just said it.


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## FGFlann (Mar 13, 2020)

I've never quite grasped why this is such a contentious issue. There's absolutely nothing wrong with groups of people being different, and it seems wrong to deny reality and assert that racial groups don't have distinct characteristics. It's what you do with this information that matters and speaks to your character.


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

Wrong. It matters which characteristics you assert to different racial groups.

Say some ethnicity (lets even use race) has darker skin (on average, because they also have no skin color controller to assign race tags amongst themselves). Sure.

Say some ethnicity has crooked noses. Not at all sure.

Say a race is greedy by naturell. Alarm bells.

Its not just "what you do with it", because shared stories (lets call them rumors at first) have power.

You have to tell people where interpretations are wrong, not just 'just do the best with them', because that on its own forms group identities, and quickly spirals out of control.

Thats why you sometimes need taboos (RACIST!). But only in very, very seldom instances. We know how tribe mechanics work (tribalism), we know that people want it, the "nation character" (also a myth) has curbed it. Until nations started to want to extinguish other nations, based on characteristics people couldnt change.

Thats the no no.

Hey, if you dont like sexual partners with blond or black hair, be my guest, go for brunettes instead. But dont ralley your folks to make the world blond (recessive gene btw) only. Because that only leads to disaster.

Its faulty logic (looks = behavior) that feels so good, because you get ingroup affirmation. That leads to painting the people outside your group very badly (in the inverse you feel better, while you do it). That leads to much more problematic stuff.

How you define your group is up to you. Just understand that "race" has nothing to it thats very 'divine'. Thats all you need to understand. Because with that you can start questioning doctrine.

At the same time 'shared culture' also is important for feeling like you belong, or even 'understanding whats happening' (point of reference). So its not even that you could just say 'lets just have a free for all', no - everyone find their group. There is one group, society at large especially doesnt like so much. And thats racists, because of reasons (didn't go well in the past). Maybe dont make that one your cultural reference.
-

If you want to hear even more points of reference for why racism is a bad idea, if you are at the point where your ingroup is obviously better than the outgroup (and smarter, and more athletic, and...) what do you do with people that fall outside that norm? In the past - gays, people with genetic disorders, people that dont comply to your cultural ideal (the thing we are actually talking about mostly)... The answer there, in the past were horrifying. (I mean you have to, because your own kind if way as described in shared stories is perfect already. And you mostly have only one ideal image... So thats sadly internal logic. You almost demand it.) So we dont like racists.


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## FGFlann (Mar 13, 2020)

The problem is not of characteristics that are "asserted" to them, the problem is that you are denying the validity of observable traits on racial lines for the sake of debunking exaggerated cultural stereotypes.

It isn't necessary to conflate the two, they are sufficiently distinct.


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> The problem is not of characteristics that are "asserted" to them, the problem is that you are denying the validity of observable traits on racial lines for the sake of debunking exaggerated cultural stereotypes.
> 
> It isn't necessary to conflate the two, they are sufficiently distinct.


Yes and certain 'interpretations' follow because of traits like everyone of us liking some sort of tribalism, so you have to interject earlier.

Thats why we have taboos here.

I love your argument that people are the 'masters of their own believes' and not just 'imprinted with naturells' and that they can change their believes individually. (Freedom!) And differentiate exactly when needed. Agreed.

Group behavior is different (less rational, less enlightened).

And if you have a certain kind of behavior pattern, that always replicated through history (hey, lets go after the other!) you start implementing stories - where this has to stop.

(Where the other cant become exactly like you. And then you arguing, so they have to live in different country, or not live at all. (Hey I know something, we are strong, lets take over!))

Thats stuff you even teach children. So thats imprinted culturally, so the other stuff doesnt happen.

(Neo-)Nazis raise their kids pretty differently in that one point.


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## FGFlann (Mar 13, 2020)

Human behaviour is something we all have to come to terms with. Racism is never going away, nor are people drawing faulty conclusions. The best you can do is try to convince them that their way of thinking is wrong. Even if the odds of succeeding are low, it's the honest choice. Denying the existence of reality is insulting not only to them, but to everyone observing the conversation as well, and only lowers your chance of succeeding.

Those of us who are capable of holding conversations like this don't need to make that same mistake, and we don't need to forbid each other from entertaining certain concepts just because they're uncomfortable.

Don't make the truth good or bad when it just has to be the truth, and nothing else.

There are four lights.


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> The best you can do is try to convince them that their way of thinking is wrong.


Uh. But thats the hardest part. ("Your holding it wrong") Thats the least likely to just work. So you dont do it intellectually, you do it culturally. Even though intellectually its easier to confront.

(Why do you need culture, as an elite?  (In general. Ask Putin.  (If you are far right leaning.  )))

Now long winded paragraph for why manipulation (cultural imprinting) is ok in that one specific instance.

We dont ask much.  We ask, that you pick an ingroup, that isnt defined by characteristics that prevents people to belong, because of something they are born with.

Thats all - everything else is fair game. Your ingroups dont have to be strictly equal - and they can be anything you like, ideology life concept, even size (some cultures are bigger than others, some cultures can be more important than others), just dont make them that exclusive.

We very much understand, that that will not lead to a worse life for you (so you are not suffering for 'god' or a goal 200 years into the future). edit: In most cases. (In cases where there are other cultural taboos, and belonging to the group you were born into is a very needed security anchor - we give you: religion (born into).)

Even if we take that known 'born with' sense of belonging (you can still have Nation, if you like!), that makes bonds so strong in racism in the first place. Just dont insist on 'born with'  as your necessary membership qualification and we are good.

Economically its also more beneficial if we do that, some guys found out.

And that 'born with' bond of your race? Most likely just a story. So you can find something similar in life, hopefully.
-

And we hopefully do it for all the best reasons, and in a very minimalistic way, that doesnt require preaching to everyone to see the wrongs in their ways.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 13, 2020)

I am going to have to go with FGFlann on this one.

Humans after wandering around on foot for millennia to cover the earth, and possibly mixing a bit with some of the other branches of the evolutionary tree, formed distinct genetic and cultural* populations (if riding a horse was about as good as it got, and that was not for everybody even then -- America and parts of Africa where they don't do so well). There are then any number of inherited traits that go along with that.
Historically and colloquially this is known as race. It may lack much descriptive power in a scientific concept, and within science the boundaries have been redrawn on many occasions (and the last few hundred years serving to force further redraws as more was discovered, people move and intermingle), but to forcibly see people drop the word is a bit much and serves no great purpose (especially not one that would want some measure of force, be it physical or battering someone intellectually or socially, even if that is not really force) and hardly invalidates the term. The various flavours of science often have some other terms and further descriptors (haplogroups being a favourite of geneticists, ethnicities for the more social science persuasion) which are helpful if you know what you are talking about along with conversation partners.

*often formed a bit of a feedback loop for the genetics so I will note it in that, even if culture is a learned concept.

As far as I can tell it is completely useless for the man on the street test, which is to say I see someone on the street and observe them to be of a given race (however nebulous and fuzzy edged that concept might be) then it has no bearing as an individual on their moral character or intellectual capacity, or worth as a human being. There may or may not be some correlations within what is termed race and some of those but the distribution curves and percentage differences observed (some of which may be cultural, very stark differences often forming in those, or down to circumstance -- it is not so very hard to manufacture a dumb psychopath by means of deprivation, and in some cases that or lesser versions thereof can be endemic within locations) and as such you would be ignoring a nice bit of maths and logic if you do operate under such assumptions (a rather foolish thing to do when you have time to ponder things). I would similarly encourage ignoring such things (the whole "be aware of the struggle" thing not sitting well at all for me -- everybody struggles and it is often hard to know without first learning of the person's history and possibly speaking to them) but to dismiss it as a concept entirely seems like ignoring data. If you ignore it at hiring level in a company I would consider you a fool too -- it is bastard hard to find people these days so why chop out people arbitrarily? I would say you also deserve a slap (by the law) if you happen to be justifying a pay difference or hiring on such a basis.

It is also rather useful in a variety of fields. If playing medic and a black guy comes in showing what looks like anaemia (bit simple but lack of blood) my diagnostic routine flows towards sickle cell, likewise someone black as the ace of spades walks in having lived somewhere far north and it might well speak to vitamin D possibly being lacking and probably less likely to have skin cancer than the ginger guy that comes in after them that lived in a sunny place for a while (or his similarly ginger girlfriend that had a fondness for tanning beds). Likewise I am unlikely to go whole hog on VR and first person shooters in the orient (not such about Indian subcontinent here and the like) as the motion sickness seems to be a genetic trait within such populations and that limits my market rather a lot.

In the end so there are stupid people in the world. Hardly seems worth nixing a useful term because there are, and in doing so giving such people some power as though they are onto something. For a more in depth conversation there probably would be more terms, however for a first pass generally understood concept... seems fine to me.


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

@FAST6191:

I'm not arguing, what is the right term ("no, no - I believe this is race").

I'm, arguing, why you literally cant have race as a 'born into' concept for 'the important things' (like government, or your main social or legal structure).

You can have nation (can assimilate people), you can have religion (people can convert), you can have cultural heritage (race as a cultural concept), but you cant have race based on characteristics you only are born with.

If you then go with - no no, but in america, we are race!

You are dumb.  (You dont understand the argument.)

I'm not telling you, why race is not the right word for what you have - I'm literally discribing, why you cant have race in todays society as that 'rallying concept' with that born into feel to it, if you go by 'born with or not' (nobody can change them) characteristics of 'membership'.

And you dont have it in the US, or anywere else in the world. You have it as self attribution, because people still wanted it. (What do you 'feel like'.)

But you cant have it as a governing structure, or as a legal structure, or as the main social structure.


Similar issue with religion btw. Islam - we dont like, because of Sharia. Sharia is a legal system that is fixed. That already has all answers to all questions. That cant develop anymore. Race (with born with attributes) in a similarly fixed state, has a very similar issue.

("Drive out the infidels!")

Now you can say you believe in race, or in Sharia - we have no problem with that even. But when you start to want to champion it as the reason why things 'obviously' are a certain way - someone is putting that STOP sign in front of you. (Self attribution is ok.) ("Certain races are..." colloquially is ok to hold as an opinion, but as soon as we get to 'governing, or political structures' it is not. It even isnt allowed in politics (which is why you have *dogwhistles* in populist politics).)

(Now thread explodes, because I brought religion into this..  )


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## FGFlann (Mar 13, 2020)

All the more reason why we should explain the difference between racial and cultural traits to anyone who fails to make the distinction. But I'm not going to deny that convincing people via argumentation is a big task with a low success rate. I would go so far as to say it's futile in the majority of cases.

But the principle doesn't change on our end either; If we deny racial traits as an observable concept instead of directly attacking a fallacious statement such as "x is lazy because they are y skin colour", our effort to disprove what the other person is saying is no more honest.


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

Reason for why, on an abstract level, is simple btw. You want to be able to also create win - win scenarios.

So not just "for us to win, someone else has to lose".
("My race is best", or "My race is the best in that place" because book says so.)

And you want constant input from multiple sides, so the system becomes more stable. (Thats the concept behind democracy.)

edit:


FGFlann said:


> All the more reason why we should explain the difference between racial and cultural traits to anyone who fails to make the distinction.


Thats what Im doing here, hopefully.  But Im also explaining why there are cultural taboos (not many - very, very few, but racism is one.).


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## FAST6191 (Mar 13, 2020)

Probably even more confusing because "I don't like Islam" has some fools claiming racism.

Anyway I am going to disagree. Race is something of a genetic heritage and thus inherently born into, and pending some fun with living genetic manipulation (which does seem to be on the cards for the nearer term -- within out lifetimes I imagine) is then fixed. Plenty of fuzzy edges and delineations other than that thanks to history, and within what might be a greater taxonomy, but the term still holds as a term of common use and general understanding. The associated genetic traits may lean you towards certain occupations, hobbies and the like, as well as preference in locations to live (no chance of finding me somewhere that commonly risks sunburn if given a free choice) as well as medical fun and games when that applies but it that is a different matter.
By the time most people sought to write it down in anything vaguely resembling a scientific manner (I do have a wonderful series of shots of the text of a late 1800s biology textbook around here somewhere that seeks to define it as it was then) it quite often happened that classical empires and other such confederations (or concerts) ran up to the same geological barriers that likely created the delineations/genetic populations.
You can certainly join or create a new culture, or religion is that is to be a distinct concept where you are at, but that is a different matter entirely.

The rallying concept thing I would say you can still have (so few use American in that though, or if they do it is not race as much as some form of nationalism). It is stupid to do but I would say the same about religion and yet we still have that. Mind you with the genetics of the "white" American population you might have some claim to either a nascent one by virtue of the amount of churn there or sub grouping as some kind of distinct from those that spawned them, and the black folks in the US also have some interesting effects thanks to what is effectively a period of isolation (though culture is probably the bigger and more interesting one there if we are doing the anthropology thing).
Anyway that is of little interest to your earlier claim of "There is no such thing as a human race". If I were to go for an analogy it would seem to be like claiming there is no such thing as sport as for the purposes of aspects US immigration law then poker counts, or that there are no such thing as vegetables as some places call pizza a vegetable (after a fashion) or that indeed tomatoes are vegetables despite what botanists say ( https://www.lexisnexis.com/community/casebrief/p/casebrief-nix-v-hedden ).


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

When I said you cant have that form of "race" as a rallying concept in any country in the western hemisphere - I forgot about brazil:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...esident-election-run-off-latest-a8573901.html

https://www.survivalinternational.org/articles/3540-Bolsonaro


When did he make it into government?
https://brazilreports.com/brazil-is...country-in-terms-of-income-distribution/2307/



FAST6191 said:


> Anyway I am going to disagree. Race is something of a genetic heritage and thus inherently born into, and pending some fun with living genetic manipulation (which does seem to be on the cards for the nearer term -- within out lifetimes I imagine) is then fixed.


I refer you to my "race" is never qualified or explorerd geneticaly, and was around as a cultural trope (used as a unifying element, used in wars, ...) long before genetics was a thing. Genetics can be used as an excuse. You can find markers for regional mutations. Those can be visually identifying, or not. You can find differences in genotype that don't impact phenotype, or looks (like bloodtype) and still let you claim, you are the same race - and if you think you can graft your race theory using genetics as an excuse - thats still just you being racist.

And no, genetics arent responsible for your hobbies, or preferred occupation, as a race.

Thats the entire point, you racist.

That you have wonderful shots of your greatgranddads biology book is great and all, but that kind of classification ended in horror. It was naive and all very exciting, and it was a 'fun' thing to try to layer in race theory through scientific means, in fact Darwin produced an entire trend of those, once his theories got widely adopted. Society got rid of all of them. All of them tried to define race post facto, to bring it in line with developments in science, the result were student revolutions to clean academia from those theories and an entire generation that didn't talk about them, because being a Nazi ('cultural purism' aspect) was really en vogue in certain cycles at the time. And there had been a strain of science that lead directly into the ideology that culminated in holocaust - and we subsequently got rid of it. Which then led to false claims - on part of Nazis, it never existed (the horror), and people only did, because they wanted to be unfair to Nazis. Because of course it did.

Take the Bolsonaro example. What to do, if you are one of those indios? You can never do anything that would make Bolsonaro happy. You are scapegoat, for a political movement of the time, because you were born into the wrong race, which apparently - everyone tells you you cant tanscend, because you look a certain way. Sh*t.

Well better not be born into that minority then... Because according to rightwing populists, it is most often the disliked minority at hand, that is responsible for most of your countries issues. Always follows the same playbook. Easy as pie. People love it (born into 'the chosen' group, people know by looks, no negotiation possible). Horrifying results.

So you can still use race theory as a unifying concept if you want, but we dont let you use it anywhere it matters, societally. And if you ever get into pronouncing - "no, no, I like skiiing because I'm caucasian, we all do", we look at you with disgust.

Thats the social contract. Also in our societies we have racial intermixing as a fact and not just as an idea at which point this concept of classification becomes really stupid ("Obviously, a 'racially' mixed individual can feel at home in two different continents, because of his/her genetic makeup") or really confusing for people (so the mixed race people then are better?), which is why if you use it as a social structure of any importance, somehow - you always want to get rid of those people quickly. Sh*t.

And next you get rid of people with genetic 'defects' because they make your race look bad. Sh*t

And next you get into theories, that those are only a thing because your race is not *pure* enough, and not because of chance mutation. 'Obviously.' Sh*t.

Oh human logic, so predictable.

Oh, and fun fact - most common occupation by race, because of genetic makeup? Hunter or gatherer.

Also, how stupid do you have to be to make a recessive genetic trait in haircolor your cultural ideal (blond people, because of pictures and stories, btw) and plan on breeding future races of those. Nazis, just always when you need stupid.


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## FGFlann (Mar 13, 2020)

It's really not that uncommon. Basically every identitarian activist group uses race as a rallying cry.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 13, 2020)

notimp said:


> I refer you to my "race" is never qualified or explorerd geneticaly, and was around as a cultural trope (used as a unifying element, used in wars, ...) long before genetics was a thing. Genetics can be used as an excuse. You can find markers for regional mutations. Those can be visually identifying, or not. You can find differences in genotype that don't impact phenotype, or looks (like bloodtype) and still let you claim, you are the same race - and if you think you can graft your race theory using genetics as an excuse - thats still just you being racist.


The old days were less than stellar -- I mean chemistry at points reckoned organic molecules had the essence of life in them and we could not create them manually, or further back chemists tried to turn lead into gold (atomic physics says will essentially never happen barring incredibly low random chance). Guess I have to dismiss them entirely as well.

You mentioned mixed folks and the fuzzy edges, made even more fun by modern migration patterns. Does make it a rather hard taxonomic problem, does not mean there is not a taxonomy to be had though. If I can sequence some DNA and by virtue of a selection of sequences being there determine to a fair degree much about where a person (and their ancestry) to a fair degree and that aligns well enough, and describes the vast majority of folks in that location that seems like a useful thing to have at some level.



notimp said:


> An no, genetics arent responsible for your hobbies, or prefered occupation, as a race.
> 
> Thats the entire point, you racist.


There is a rather large difference between responsible and influence.

I don't see too many pygmies playing basketball, that tribe that lived up a mountain for a few thousand years (and thus gained a seriously high blood oxygen capacity) tends to feature a fair few runners, as mentioned before the seasickness thing that seems to be very much present within oriental types ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8825456 ) does rather limit the first person shooter market there, my being of ginger stock does see me rather limit my time in the sun (as well as possibly not feel pain as much and be able to drink copious amounts of booze, though that might be the same thing as blue eyes, to say nothing of not get the Asian flush thing as it were for said booze though that matters little other than being an example of an inherited trait). This list goes on for a long time.

Geography plays a nice role too in this (you find yourself in the North Sea and you tend to find yourself in need of good boats and capabilities, far more so than the nice predictable moonsoon setup around Asia and East Africa), possibly an even greater one, but that changes little. I do wonder however if there were reinforcement of traits useful to that (fish is good food after all).

It feels redundant to state, not least of all because I already did, but what they hey. None of that has any influence on your worth as a human being, might well have some influence on what you like/are good at doing (failure is fun but not all the time), nor what I treat individuals as or would suggest anybody apply to a group (you are missing out on good people if you do). If that makes me an unpardonable cunt then so be it.



notimp said:


> Take the Bolsonaro example. What to do, if you are one of those indios? You can never do anything that would make Bolsonaro happy. You are scapegoat, for a political movement of the time, because you were born into the wrong race. Sh*t.
> 
> Well better not be in that born into minority then... Because according to rightwing populists, its is most often the disliked minority at hand, that is responsible for most of your countries issues. Always follows the same playbook. Easy as pie. People love it (born into 'the chosen' group, people know by looks, no negotiation possible). Horrifying results.


So there are morons in the world? Why does that change useful categorisations for general discussion? Do I fear them so much that I consider a long understood term verboten?



notimp said:


> So you can still use race theory as a unifying concept if you want, but we dont let you use it anywhere it matters, societally. And if you ever get into pronouncing - "no, no, I like skiiing because I'm caucasian, we all do", we look at you with disgust.


Is there any basis for skiing unlike some the examples above? I could see something with risk taking courtesy of that pain thing and adaptation to cold (the nice layer of fat growing all over me doing rather better for that than when I run around somewhere hot, as opposed to those that store it in their arse to presumably dissipate it better in that environment) and freeze) but that is just idle speculation at this point.




That said I decided you changed my mind. If there is no such thing as race I can't be racist (not that I ever was) and nor can anybody else (even those of the dominant race). Winner that one.


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## Deleted User (Mar 13, 2020)

Not sure why there's a poll. They left and that's the correct path.

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notimp said:


> When I said you cant have that form of "race" as a rallying concept in any country in the western hemisphere - I forgot about brazil:
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...esident-election-run-off-latest-a8573901.html
> 
> ...


You think yourself as an intellectual, yet you don't even know the terms of races. Just makes it all pointless to even discuss.


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

FGFlann said:


> It's really not that uncommon. Basically every identitarian activist group uses race as a rallying cry.


On the populist level yes/maybe.

But on the societal decision level never (societal contract) willingly. (Neo-Nazis would call that 'doctrine' oppression).

Remember those statements, that face recognition algos discriminated against black people? In designing societal structures, you have to look for that. Or else (quick theoretical example), black people get sidelined, identify and rally over race primarily, which makes it very hard to strike compromises (lets have both sides win a little).

And if that race identity ever becomes the main majority ideology governing your society... Better leave country (if you are intelligent).

So there is always that weird disconnect of 'sorry racially arguing person' you can have this opinion, but from this point forward, we will ignore it.

The conceptual story goes further btw. Because it never ends with 'ok, so now we've all cleanly seperated all races to places where they belong, so now finally we can live happily ever after'. Those idiologies (its very hard to strike compromises, because the classification is so absolute (even your children can never transcend it)), lead to wars. Wars lead to resentments (especially if you then culturally isolate the looser). Leads to wars, ...

Marry europe in the 17 hundreds. (Cycle of wars, all very perfectly 'theoretically argued for' (why they were needed).)

But you dont have to get into that to decide, why race (with that "only born into" quality) is a bad idea as a 'governing structure'. Or rallying structure even (its easy to argue that intellectually (winning that argument), its just convincing people thats the hard part (because the bonds (of that story ('my born brother')) are so strong.). (See religion.)


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## notimp (Mar 13, 2020)

There is also one more point I have to mention, and that is 'purpose'.
So when you take racial identity away from people as a 'higher goal', they loose purpose. ('Wäääh, cant make PC masterrace win in life')

Which is a problem. We (society) hope you find yours somewhere else.  (At least you can choose freely, you just can not 'maximize race interest' to a point where it works better than 'equal to others', (or better than main societal organizing system ('very efficient those Nazis, very efficient.')).)



edit: Qualifier on Islam. Not all people following islam (religion), believe in Sharia as the 'divine' main governing structure (Sharia is a fixed ('godly') law structure) of all (its divine, you know..) societies. Be nice to people, at least try to find out first. 

Also, that 'divinely fixated, since centuries ago, and for centuries ahead' part ('obviously' in the race example) is what becomes problematic in democracies. (You know all answers, why even ask the people? (Or live by our laws that dont come 'directly from god'.)))


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