# Ctrl+Alt+Del VS Zero Punctuation



## Veho (Jul 3, 2008)

It seems that Tim Buckley of Ctrl Alt Del fame, and Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of Zero Punctuation, are at each other's throats, in another installment of *Internet Drama*. Ahem. 

A long time ago, in a gaming review far far away, Yahtzee commented briefly on the fact that a comic, being primarily a visual art form, should have more, well, _visuals_, using Tim "Wall-O-Text" Buckley's *CAD* as an example of what not to do. 

Suffice it to say, this escalated. (I'll skip the three pages of links to escapades from both sides, because, damn, three pages. Of links. Wall of walls of text.) 

Leading us to this week's episode of Zero Punctuation, How to make Gaming Webcomics. 







I'll spare you my take on the story, and just let you gather your own info and draw your own conclusions. In case you're not familiar with the subject matter. And then get back here. And vote. And discuss. 

So, in today's installment of *Internet Drama*, who do you vote for? Tim B^U Buckley, or Ben Croshaw?


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## Jax (Jul 3, 2008)

Yahtzee all the way!

BTW, ZP wasn't the first to mock the miscarriage comic.


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## Prime (Jul 3, 2008)

yey Yahtzee! 

I liked his video this week but it wasn't up to the standards of his reviews. I hope he goes back to reviewing games.

I


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## CockroachMan (Jul 3, 2008)

VGCats also mocked CAD before the whole baby thing..






Yeah.. The miscarriage thing was ridiculous, I wouldn't mind if Buckley created a new webcomic more serious, with stuff like that.. but putting it on CAD was a stupid decision.. 

He made some very funny comics in the past, but now it's been some time since I saw something good over there :/


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## .TakaM (Jul 3, 2008)

always hated ctrl alt del, unfunny shit basically.


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## TheWingless (Jul 3, 2008)

Seems like no one really like CAD. Oh well... I don't really care because it's not my problem. If the end comes, then it comes. It's his comic(HE MAKES IT), but he can still be mocked/made fun of for it.


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## deathfisaro (Jul 3, 2008)

I don't get CAD.


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## MR_COW (Jul 3, 2008)




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## jesterscourt (Jul 3, 2008)

This is stupid.  Besides, Something Positive's first comic, like 5 years ago was an abortion joke.


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## Endogene (Jul 3, 2008)

i dont get it, why are they mocking it?


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## BoneMonkey (Jul 3, 2008)

ROFL


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## The Teej (Jul 3, 2008)

MR_COW said:
			
		

>



What... the fuck? Is this real?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Even I'm at a complete loss for words at this (which is rare)

I have never heard about this miscarriage CAD thing, can anyone point me to when this all happened?


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## jaxxster (Jul 3, 2008)

Whats all of this about?


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## Ferrariman (Jul 3, 2008)

The Teej said:
			
		

> MR_COW said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, fan edited.


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## Sc4rFac3d (Jul 3, 2008)

Normally I'm all in for some good ol drama, but this time it's just stupid. Really really stupid.


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## Jax (Jul 3, 2008)

B^U


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## martin88 (Jul 3, 2008)

So what's all this miscarriage thing about?


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## MR_COW (Jul 3, 2008)

Ok.

So CAD is a comic in the vain of Penny Arcade...pretty much the same thing. Awhile ago the two characters had sex, she got preggo, and they got engaged. Now, CAD is a video game humor comic. And all of the sudden they through in this miscarriage story arc, which just seems RIDICULOUS and totally out of place.

Read from here on:

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20080528

It is his comic, but he is still doing very poorly at writing it lately. The ones I posted are parodies making fun of the idea. I mean its a comic that has a joke....and all of the sudden something this serious happens? The hell.....


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## phuzzz (Jul 3, 2008)

MR_COW said:
			
		

> Ok.
> 
> So CAD is a comic in the vain of Penny Arcade...pretty much the same thing. Awhile ago the two characters had sex, she got preggo, and they got engaged. Now, CAD is a video game humor comic. And all of the sudden they through in this miscarriage story arc, which just seems RIDICULOUS and totally out of place.
> 
> ...


QFT.  You would think the would be some sort of "easing in" to such a serious comic, but there wasn't.  I used to like CAD, even with the flak it's been getting, and with Tim being essentially a dick.  But now, I can't read it anymore.  He just went too far out there.


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## 8BitWalugi (Jul 4, 2008)

YAHTZEE FTW! Incidentally, theres a game called Yahtzee.


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## antwill (Jul 4, 2008)

I never really liked nor found CAD funny at all, i couldn't understand how anyone would like it, and then i hear about something stupid like this whole misscarriage thing.


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## stivsama (Jul 4, 2008)

I'm glad Yahtzee is a major majority vote... But 6 people voted for B^u ? As in more than one hand? Must be 6 joke votes, then. I still have hope for humanity, after all.


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## Veho (Jul 7, 2008)

Personally, I don't mind the *B^U*, I don't mind the fact that jokes may or may not be bad; I don't mind the wall of text, I don't mind the fact that the CAD rule indeed does apply to CAD, and I don't care about Buckley being a moron in his private life, because I've always kept creations separate from their creators. I don't even think he's "ripping off" other comics, because, frankly, there are only so many one-link-removed associations to seeing Snake humping another guy, and gaming comics will have the same jokes sometimes. I read CAD, and it's a mediocre comic, which, ironically, places it head and shoulders above 90% of gaming comics out there. 

What I do mind is the fact that any story arc in CAD spanning over more than three strips feels forced, fake, simply awkward, and from the very beginnings, it seemed like Buckley couldn't devise a plot or an overarching story arc to save his life. One-liners are fine (even though it takes him four panels to deliver them), but anything resembling continuity just seems forcefully hammered into the flow of the comic like a nail being forcefully hammered into a flat surface. A 90 degree turn from the usual flow of the comic, hitting a wall of not having any idea how to go on, then heading straight back to the comic's usual flow (instead of things slowly returning to normal), and the whole incident having no consequences whatsoever. These "story arcs" were more like ticks on the main comic, using up time and resources, but not affecting it in any significant way. 

And then came the pregnancy/miscarriage storyline, and the usually ignorable fact that Buckley simply can't do continuity and story arcs struck like a brick. He couldn't think of a way to incorporate the baby into the comic without major changes (changes: a task that has proven impossible for Buckley in the past), so he just gave up, and decided to get rid of the baby, and simply _sprint_ towards the regular wacko randomness of CAD, getting back to normal as soon as possible, and pretending it never happened. And it was done extremely ham-fistedly, with all the subtlety of a brick. 

That's not how you do it. You don't plunge headlong into continuity, you get there gradually. You don't go straight for drama, you ease into it. You don't snap back into randomness like a taut rubber band, you drift towards it over time. And plowing straight into serious issues, when all you've ever did was puns and college humor, would be criticized if done in _any_ media, not just comics, and is therefore a very valid argument. Imagine Spongebob Squarepants suddenly involving blood, guts and decapitations is slow-motion for one and a half minutes during a usual Spongebob-y episode. _Never a good idea._ 

And what made matters worse was his post after the abortion comic "aired". _"I've been planning this for a long time."_ No. He didn't. _"My ex-girlfriend had a miscarriage, we never looked back, that's why we'll shrug the whole issue off in two strips and be back to random in no time, it's only natural."_ No. The "instant back to the daily grind" could be overlooked in previous comics, because the random tangents the comic happened to wander off on were impossible, and very much in tone with the rest of the comic, as such were inconsequential and could be ignored. This escapade, however, can't be approached in the same way. _"I did it to give characters depth."_ Um, no. Why didn't you give the characters depth by having them behave as anything other than one-dimensional cardboard cutouts dancing erratically on a length of string? Saying "something bad happened to them so now they have depth" simply _doesn't work_, especially if the characters' behaviour doesn't change a bit, and it hasn't, and I bet it won't. 

And just one other thing. "It's my comic and I can do whatever I like with it" is simply wrong on so many levels I can't even count that high, and they are both pretty basic levels too. And a cookie to whoever gets the reference. CAD is a product. A very commercial product. It is there to attract people to the site and expose them to ad banners (Step 4: Profit!), or to get people to buy the books and merchandise. In any case, the comic as a product should attract people, and as such should, to some extent, pander to the audience. It can afford to lose some readers by weird interventions, if those interventions attract new readers. The comic can not afford to bleed readers, and while artistic integrity is a wonderful thing, market feedback is what puts bread on the table. And keeping a finger on the pulse of the general populace means listening to critics and their critiques (and there are valid points out there), not sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalalaaaa", or, in this case, "it's my comic and I can do what I like with it". 


So there. My take on the whole thing.


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## superkrm (Jul 8, 2008)

nah
its his comic he can do whatever he wants.
not wrong but true
proven true by his arch
he can either can try to please or displease
shut it down or keep it up

its his right to be profitable or do dumb shite

it is not wrong you just disagree


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## Doomsday Forte (Jul 8, 2008)

Ah, I was looking for this topic.  I'm personally more of a VGCats or Penny Arcade kinda person myself.  

That said, the whole thing about "random random miscarriage random" is a bit off-putting.  I mean, I did read some CAD for a while so I knew about the slowly-coming relationship between Ethan and...his girlfriend and all, but it's been a while.  I assume they eventually married and had attempted conception, but given the random nature of the comic...having these kinda "real serious business" things really kills the whole feel of the comic and pushes it towards soap opera stage.  Granted, the whole it's his comic thing yeah, but Veho already touched on that.  That, and if you're going to make a comment on your personal life through your own work, don't put it in the mainstream thing.  Make it an offshoot.  Or a side story.  Or something.  Especially in the case of this, it comes off as totally out of left field and it leaves the fans wondering just what the hell's going on and what will happen eventually.  You don't simply just recover from a miscarriage as though it simply didn't happen (at least for the woman, if the guy's a total bastard on the other hand...) and that essentially kills Ethan's girlfriend as a character since most women would be incredibly depressed after such an event.  No more appearances for a long while folks, see ya later.

Oh hey, I did the wall of text too, haha.  

Oh, I remember the term I was looking for now.  After School Special.  The comics that I tend to like are like the old types of cartoons.  Tom & Jerry, Looney Tunes, etc.  The kind where all sorts of shit can happen and it'll never carry over to the next episode.  The random fits there.  In a more serious series, like most live-action shows, stuff happening usually has a dramatic and lasting impact on the characters and fans.  One person dying in the story just doesn't pop back up the next episode, for example.  

He could've pulled a Family Guy and simply have her be pregnant forever.  Or, pull a soap opera and have it all be a dream, though I think that'd piss off people even more than what he did to begin with.


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## Veho (Jul 9, 2008)

superkrm said:
			
		

> its his comic he can do whatever he wants.
> not wrong but true



That statement is true only semantically, and definitely can't be used the way he uses it, i.e. as an excuse for a catastrophic lack of, if nothing else, common sense. Instead of, Heaven forbid, admitting what he did was poorly thought out and badly executed, or simply taking the feedback in silence, he's hiding behind the "it's my toy and I can do whatever I want with it". 

Well, it's like selling a car, and then driving that same car into a wall. And then _still trying to sell the car._ And when someone tells him it might not have been a good idea to drive the car into a wall (or that the car might not be as good now that it's been intimately acquainted with a ton of bricks), he claims that it's _his_ car, he can do what he wants with it. 

You can't have your cake and eat it. He can't sell his comic and hide behind the "it's my comic" excuse at the same time.


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## Hooya (Jul 9, 2008)

Veho said:
			
		

> [snip]
> So there. My take on the whole thing.



Holy crap dude.  Are you a psychic or something, because you seem to know this guys inner thoughts and plans and stuff.

It seems like you are sensitive about the issue or something (not sure what issue that is though).

I happen to think that the reason the whole miscarriage thing sprung so suddenly in the comic is because *that's the way it happens in real life!*  Heaven forbid his comic take on real life situations.  And it's not like the miscarriage is totally forgotten anyway.  There have been quite a few comics that follow up on the story, such as the one with Zeke recently.  What do you expect, some sort of anime like filler of 20 strips?

It seems like you read his blog but just chose not to believe anything he said there, and if you didn't believe him, nothing I can say will change your opinion.  Not that your opinion matters at all anyway.


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## Gaisuto (Jul 9, 2008)

I moved this over to Off-Topic as this doesn't really have anything to do with consoles, really.
But that being said, Yahtzee is better.


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## Gore (Jul 9, 2008)

I love CAD. 
Stop mocking it.


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## Veho (Jul 13, 2008)

Hooya said:
			
		

> It seems like you read his blog but just chose not to believe anything he said there, and if you didn't believe him, nothing I can say will change your opinion.  Not that your opinion matters at all anyway.


Well, if I refuse to believe his wall of lame and mutually exclusive excuses for his moment of bad judgement, CAD is still a relatively good comic. 
If I am to _believe_ what he said, and if his rantings are actually true, then CAD is a poorly written, self-important, pretentious piece of _crap_. 



I've given it some thought, though, and have arrived at a third answer: CAD is actually _two_ comics. 

One is a random, quirky, light-hearted gaming comic. It is entirely gag-driven; all other features are subject to delivering the punchline. Apart form the mini-story arcs, there is no continuity. This lets every mini arc go its own way, and allows them to be based on mutually contradictory premises. The world the whole comic is set into is surreal, allowing for much more situations and twists than the real world might, and also intentionally left vague, lest some pesky previously mentioned rule stops a gag from taking a particular course. 

Characters are no more than stock characters with one or two defining features, while the rest of them are intentionaly left vague and random, meaning they can act out of character all the time. Unencumbered with motivation, aside from their one defining characteristic, characters can act in a way that best serves the purpose of setting up the gag and delivering a punchline.  

An example of such a comic (although not a gaming one) would be Garfield. Waving aside contradictions in character and setup like flies, the comic can base its punchline on "Garfield reading the papers" one day, and "Garfield not knowing how to read 'cuz he's a cat" the next. Humour is the main point, and everything else can be bent to it. 



The _other_ comic is a character-driven, story-based comic, depicting the lives of five friends, and the problems they face. This comic takes place in the real world. There's continuity, of course, and there's an overarching storyline that has been planned ahead; the characters are defined, and their actions are consistent with their motivations in life. There are humorous elements, but it's not a comic aimed at making people laugh. The story is evenly paced, and, while the comic has its minor flaws, and due to its nature certainly won't appeal to everyone, one must admit that nobody's forcing you to read it, it's just something the author does in his free time, and he can do whatever he wants with it. 



What confuses the readers is that both comics have the same characters, and are posted (alternating at random) in the same place at the same time, leading people to believe it's actually one comic. Which is of course impossible, because one is a silly, quirky, surreal, "causality be damned" gaming comic, while the other is a drama, and the two go together like chalk and cheese. They are of a contradicting and mutually exclusive nature. Such elements can not coexist in the same comic. Any single comic sontaining all these elements simultaneously would be wildly schizophrenic, to say the least. It would be a badly written, badly paced, inconsistent wreck, flailing wildly at random, jumping from humorous surrealism to "real life", in a world with no rules whatsoever, with gaping plot holes, self-contradicting storylines, undefined (and possibly dangerously deranged) characters, nonexistant flow, and no direction whatsoever, and any author claiming he created such a patchwork monstruosity intentionally, and actually taking pride in his work, would also have to be a master of Yoga, because he would have his head stuck up his own ass while at the same time swallowing his own foot.  



Viewed as two separate comics, on the other hand, and judging them separately, each comic for itself is quite alright, actually. And seeing that Tim Buckley is doing a _third_ comic now (again with the same characters), this theory is quite plausible.


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## Man18 (Jul 13, 2008)

Been a fan of Ben for a while. (more specifically since 5 days came out) so I am voting for him.


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