# Free Speech is Democracy's Downfall (Sean Illing) [Original Title: Free speech is essential for democracy. Could it also be democracy’s downfall?]



## Creamu (Aug 5, 2022)

'[...]

I just co-authored a book with Zac Gershberg, a professor at Idaho State University, called The Paradox of Democracy, and we argue that these threats aren’t new at all, and in fact they’re not threats to democracy in the way we typically think — they’re threats to a certain kind of democracy we’ve gotten used to over the past century or so.

One reason for the turmoil has been a massive shift in our media environment. Digital technologies in particular have introduced more voices and platforms, and that means more conflict and anarchy. All of these changes highlight a contradiction at the core of every democratic culture: The very freedom on which it depends — the freedom of expression — can be used to undermine it from within. This is a pattern that has recurred throughout history, going all the way back to ancient Greece.

[...]

Sean Illing

Democracy and liberalism are very different things, even though they’re often mixed up together. We think democracy is fundamentally a decision to open up the public sphere and let people speak freely. It really is a culture of open communication, which is why we say that democracy is largely free expression and its consequences.

Democracy is not just a body of institutions or practices, or just a process for choosing leaders. To say that a state is democratic is actually to say relatively very little about how it’s governed. And the book is trying to remind people that instruments of democracy — free expression, an open media environment — can be turned against it.

When we’re talking about liberalism, we’re talking about the defense of minority rights, the rule of law, the peaceful acceptance of transfers of power, and all the institutions and cultural norms that sustain those things.

[...]

Margaret Sullivan

One thing I’ve wondered about reading your book is how concerned you are about the current state of American democracy, and really the state of global democracy. You come at it from a different point of view, suggesting this is just what democracy looks like, but how worried are you?

Sean Illing

Oh, I’m worried. I think the failure to see this distinction is making it more difficult for us to defend the liberal democracy that we have. Many of us want democracy to be a battle of ideas and policies, rooted in facts and evidence-based discourse.

But I really do see democracy as a competition of communication styles, where every imaginable kind of rhetoric and bullshit artistry and demagoguery is allowed to flourish. And that means it’s a fight, not just between arguments but between clashing rhetorics, between ways of thinking. And it is always, whether we recognize it or not, a battle for power.

So one concern I have is that I don’t think the Democratic Party in this country gets this. I really don’t. Even when they hold power, they seem incapable of exercising it. Why is that? There are probably lots of reasons. But one is that they can’t stop believing that democracy should be practiced in a certain way, and in a certain manner, and in accordance with certain rules. And I think that’s because they’re devoted to liberal democracy.

The Republicans are not devoted to liberal democracy. They’re actually willing to play dice with democracy. Republicans are saying, Look, almost half the country will follow us no matter what we do. Many of them only consume media that affirms their biases anyway. So let’s just seize and exercise power by any means necessary. The overturning of Roe v. Wade is an obvious recent example.

[...]

Trump’s great contribution was to show the Republican Party what’s actually possible if you stop caring about the liberal democratic game and just go after power. So Democrats accept the constraints of liberalism, and Republicans ruthlessly exploit the advantages our media and our political system afford them. They’re playing different games.

I’m not claiming that liberal democracy is dead. I would never claim that. I mean, it’s a possibility. But I am saying that the age of liberal democracy is over. And that means that this long postwar period of mostly stable liberal democracy was a period in which a gatekeeping media system managed a norms-driven discourse. And that is over.

[...]'

-Sean Illing







-Margaret Sullivan






https://www.vox.com/vox-conversatio...rsations-the-paradox-of-democracy-sean-illing


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## pustal (Aug 5, 2022)

The US seems to define 'freedom' and 'freedom of expression' differently from everybody else.

We have a saying here that goes around the lines "one's freedom ends when the next person's starts".

We are free to say what we want confined withing the margins of good faith. If you are using your liberties to spread misinformation and lies, you are not expressing yourself, you maliciously conditioning other people's views of the world and restricting their freedom to think and act based on truth.

Libel, defamations and other misinformation laws are not meant to restrict freedom, but to protect it and keep public discourse honest.


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## smf (Aug 5, 2022)

The big problem is that people assume that others act like them.

So democrats will assume that people will behave rationally and honestly, while republicans assume that everyone will lie and cheat to get what they want.

All the deep state paranoia is because they think that the state is as untrustworthy as they are.


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## Lumstar (Aug 5, 2022)

You have to take the good with the bad. People need to be able to speak out against corruption, without reprisal.

A disadvantage is it's more difficult to clamp down on those who want to warp "free speech" into an abomination. If the crackpots had their way, social media would lose the freedom to block/ban users for posting quackery, conspiracy theories, etc.


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## smf (Aug 5, 2022)

Lumstar said:


> You have to take the good with the bad. People need to be able to speak out against corruption, without reprisal.


That only works if most people are being honest.

Speaking out against corruption now has no value, because of the existence of infowars/trump/etc


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 5, 2022)

pustal said:


> The US seems to define 'freedom' and 'freedom of expression' differently from everybody else.
> 
> We have a saying here that goes around the lines "one's freedom ends when the next person's starts".
> 
> ...


Who decides what is disinformation? There are many news stories that people still believe to be true, yet they have been disproven and there are many news stories that were labeled disinformation that have been proven true. 

The only cure for bad speech, is more speech.


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## chrisrlink (Aug 5, 2022)

free speech is truthfully non existant to an extent at least I can't yell bomb in an airport or on an airplaine can I? on another note how can you commit treason in a country built from treason itsellf?, as i said befor GB is a very different place than 200 yrs ago i honestly do support recolonization since obviously power hungry moron''s are trying to undermine our democracy


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## pustal (Aug 5, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Who decides what is disinformation? There are many news stories that people still believe to be true, yet they have been disproven and there are many news stories that were labeled disinformation that have been proven true.
> 
> The only cure for bad speech, is more speech.


If you know something is false and try to spread it as true, that's misinformation, it's not about what you believe, it's about what you know and propagate otherwise. It's about knowing the truth and using any outlets at your disposal to spread the false. It's not about being correct or not, it's about ill intent. And it's a demonstrated fact that many in positions of power propagate things they know it's false.

Some like Alex Jones just got screwed in court for such demonstration. Others, like certain politicians, big business men, influencers, companies you have then on tape or other records proving they know the truth and publicly saying falsewoods that contradict them, but because "free speech" nothing happens to them.

Just last week, you had a bunch o US senators spreading a lie about the PACT act, when they had the document in front of them and publicly available that showed the truth and there was no consequence, because "free speech".


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 5, 2022)

pustal said:


> Some like Alex Jones just got screwed in court for such demonstration.


He got it easy.


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## smf (Aug 8, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The only cure for bad speech, is more speech.


Clearly not, because the people who want to listen to infowars will never change no matter how much speech you have.

The only way to protect free speech, is to not exploit it.

Alex Jones exploited free speech.


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## Creamu (Aug 8, 2022)

smf said:


> The only way to protect free speech, is to not exploit it.


Yeah, just don't use it that's all.


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 9, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Yeah, just don't use it that's all.



How can you not use speech, any sort of communication requires speech?


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## Creamu (Aug 9, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> How can you not use speech, any sort of communication requires speech?


You only say the valid things and you should be fine. I suggest that I will judge on what is valid and what is not.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 9, 2022)

smf said:


> Clearly not, because the people who want to listen to infowars will never change no matter how much speech you have.
> 
> The only way to protect free speech, is to not exploit it.
> 
> Alex Jones exploited free speech.


The only people exploiting free speech are the ones doing the censoring. It's not my fault that braindead people can't use discernment when reading or listening.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 9, 2022)

Creamu said:


> You only say the valid things and you should be fine. I suggest that I will judge on what is valid and what is not.


The use of discernment is a lost art with many people. Make sure you validate with extensive research and not emotion.


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## Creamu (Aug 9, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The use of discernment is a lost art with many people. Make sure you validate with extensive research and not emotion.


I wouldn't want to give so much power to institutions of research, they are easily corruptable and may very well be corrupted by their own ambitions. Therefore I will allow for speech that supports me (in my dream to become mod for example).


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## smf (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The only people exploiting free speech are the ones doing the censoring. It's not my fault that braindead people can't use discernment when reading or listening.


Braindead people are the ones that are obsessed with free speech.

Why is it only right wingnuts who can't use discernment when reading or listening?

Maybe there is some link between the mental retardation and being right wing?


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> Braindead people are the ones that are obsessed with free speech.
> 
> Why is it only right wingnuts who can't use discernment when reading or listening?
> 
> Maybe there is some link between the mental retardation and being right wing?


Only communists and fascists censor speech.

You could use discernment too, but choose not to.

Maybe you could actually have a serious adult conversation instead of slinging insults like a petulant child?


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## smf (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Only communists and fascists censor speech.
> 
> You could use discernment too, but choose not to.
> 
> Maybe you could actually have a serious adult conversation instead of slinging insults like a petulant child?


Your style of communication comes across as someone who can't have an adult conversation.

I do use discernment, which is why I wouldn't protect Alex Jones right to free speech after he has abused it so rigorously.

It's not because I disagree with his opinion, it's that he is purposefully lying to make money and those lies are impacting peoples health and they didn't consent to being lied to. Trump et al have realized there is easy money to be made from people who are easy to manipulate & protecting those people is one of societies roles.

I would have a problem with anyone doing that, no matter what the message they were selling


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## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> Maybe there is some link between the mental retardation and being right wing?


There certainly is. If you fall for the caducean right or left it indicates some cognitive deficiency.


smf said:


> It's not because I disagree with his opinion, it's that he is purposefully lying to make money and those lies are impacting peoples health and they didn't consent to being lied to. Trump et al have realized there is easy money to be made from people who are easy to manipulate & protecting those people is one of societies roles.
> 
> I would have a problem with anyone doing that, no matter what the message they were selling


Hopefully people will be in power who care for truth so that we can have a culture that supports this notion.


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## smf (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Hopefully people will be in power who care for truth so that we can have a culture that supports this notion.


If the people in power don't care for truth then you have bigger problems (for example see Trump).

Some of us don't think people like Hitler/Putin/Trump should be able to get into power, even if >50% of the people vote for them. Because democracy isn't brainwashing people.


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## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> If the people in power don't care for truth then you have bigger problems (for example see Trump).


Don't look at Trump he is just one of the trees of a great forest of liars of the whole aparatus. Merchants were never known for honesty.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> Your style of communication comes across as someone who can't have an adult conversation.
> 
> I do use discernment, which is why I wouldn't protect Alex Jones right to free speech after he has abused it so rigorously.
> 
> ...


So if you can take the right to free speech away, you can't call it a right. What other rights are you willing to take away from people who have committed no crimes? Are you willing to round up a particular religious group and send them to camps because they said unapproved words that hurt your feelings? Where exactly is the red line with leftists? Do you want the government to release a list of approved words that we are allowed to say so nobody's feelings get hurt?

The saying "sticks and stones..." that kids say seems to be pertinent for you.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> There certainly is. If you fall for the caducean right or left it indicates some cognitive deficiency.
> 
> Hopefully people will be in power who care for truth so that we can have a culture that supports this notion.


Imagine believing only Trump and people on the right lie to make money. The leftists on this site argue like children.


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## mrdude (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Only communists and fascists censor speech.
> 
> You could use discernment too, but choose not to.
> 
> Maybe you could actually have a serious adult conversation instead of slinging insults like a petulant child?


Yep, only commies, lefty's and facists want to silence other people - while they do some unhinged screeching at others.

Humans are the only animal *ever* in the existance of life on earth that have tried to silence another being of the same species. Personally I would like to go back to the cavemen type days where I could go berry picking, fishing and hunting animals on free land that belongs to eveyone - instead I have to live in a world where mongs with green hair pretent to be something they are not, the rich have stolen everything for themselves and some commie twat is trying to tell me what I can say and what I can't.

To all commie lefties out there - F U! If I was a caveman I would kill you, steal your stuff and have my way with your female, if she was of a suitable breeding age, was reasonably good looking and didn't smell like a wet dog or a commie.


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## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Imagine believing only Trump and people on the right lie to make money. The leftists on this site argue like children.


The whole thing is a mess. It's plain to see. Are they seriously missing this or are they malicious actors?


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> The whole thing is a mess. It's plain to see. Are they seriously missing this or are they malicious actors?


It is obvious that what they are doing is purposeful. Nobody who is dumb gets to those positions. If you wanted to destroy a country, the best way to do it would be to do everything we've seen in the last 18+ months. Who is dumb enough to raise taxes on the middle class during a recession? Don't attribute ineptitude to what is obviously malicious.


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## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> It is obvious that what they are doing is purposeful. Nobody who is dumb gets to those positions. If you wanted to destroy a country, the best way to do it would be to do everything we've seen in the last 18+ months. Who is dumb enough to raise taxes on the middle class during a recession? Don't attribute ineptitude to what is obviously malicious.


What is your impression about there motivations. Payed actors? Fanatics?


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> What is your impression about there motivations. Payed actors? Fanatics?


Blackmail with some religious fanaticism, but mostly blackmail.


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## Xzi (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Who is dumb enough to raise taxes on the middle class during a recession?


Are you referring to the law passed by the Trump administration which increases taxes on the middle and lower classes every two years until 2027?  Because the only tax increases built into the Inflation Reduction Act are on businesses, specifically those that generate more than a billion in profit annually.  That sure as shit ain't "middle class" lmao.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> "So Democrats accept the constraints of liberalism, and Republicans ruthlessly exploit the advantages our media and our political system afford them. They’re playing different games."


Actually, the Republicans are playing the Democrat´s game. "Look at our token blacks. The Democrats are the real racists!" or trying to overtake them on the left by promoting transgender candidates.


Creamu said:


> "I’m not claiming that liberal democracy is dead. I would never claim that. I mean, it’s a possibility. But I am saying that the age of liberal democracy is over. And that means that this long postwar period of mostly stable liberal democracy was a period in which a gatekeeping media system managed a norms-driven discourse. And that is over."


This guy does not even notice his own contradictions. Democracy is the rule of the people. If the people need to be reined in by a gatekeeping media, they are not ruling! Sheep don´t rule. They are ruled.

BTW if the protection of minorities is a feature of any democracy, then all Baltic states are not democratic because they don´t even give citizenship to Russians. Neither would Israel be a democracy (or Ukraine, obviously).


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Are you referring to the law passed by the Trump administration which increases taxes on the middle and lower classes every two years until 2027?  Because the only tax increases built into the Inflation Reduction Act are on businesses, specifically those that generate more than a billion in profit annually.  That sure as shit ain't "middle class" lmao.


That is a lie. The Inflation Reduction Act, which will not reduce inflation since it's going to spend an additional hundreds of billions of dollars, will tax everybody making above $40k. You have been lied to. Get off of the state-run media and actually do some research yourself.

PS. Your TDS is showing. The executive branch does not pass laws. That would be Congress. While your researching, go take a basic civics class or watch a Schoolhouse Rocks cartoon.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Actually, the Republicans are playing the Democrat´s game. "Look at our token blacks. The Democrats are the real racists!" or trying to overtake them on the left by promoting transgender candidates.
> 
> This guy does not even notice his own contradictions. Democracy is the rule of the people. If the people need to be reined in by a gatekeeping media, they are not ruling! Sheep don´t rule. They are ruled.
> 
> BTW if the protection of minorities is a feature of any democracy, then all Baltic states are not democratic because they don´t even give citizenship to Russians. Neither would Israel be a democracy (or Ukraine, obviously).


The protection of minorities is a feature of a republic, not a democracy. Democracy is mob rule by the majority. Hence why the left want to remove all checks and balances in the constitution to create their utopian democracy.


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## Xzi (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The Inflation Reduction Act ... will tax everybody making above $40k.


I literally cannot find any source claiming this except you.  It's not even in Fox News articles about the bill.



TraderPatTX said:


> Get off of the state-run media and actually do some research yourself.


Oh okay, so it's just bullshit you picked up on 8chan or something.  Thanks for clarifying.



TraderPatTX said:


> PS. Your TDS is showing. The executive branch does not pass laws. That would be Congress.


How predictably disingenous.  As if the executive has no part whatsoever in proposing bills or ratifying them into law.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 10, 2022)

Human nature is simple. You can test who is in power by looking at who is against free speech (and who is for it). Prophet Muhammad was for it in Mekka, against it after Medina. Christians were for it before the Christianization of Rome (e.g. praying to their God) and persecuted free speech afterwards, e.g. calling them heretics.
It is clear who the heretics are today in the West. Therefore we know who is in power. In the 50s and 60s the left was for free speech because they were not in power ("liberal"). Humans are easier to read than an AI in a strategy game on easy settings.


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## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Blackmail with some religious fanaticism, but mostly blackmail.


And what about those you encounter in this forum?


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## Xzi (Aug 10, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Human nature is simple. You can test who is in power by looking at who is against free speech (and who is for it). Prophet Muhammad was for it in Mekka, against it after Medina. Christians were for it before the Christianization of Rome (e.g. praying to their God) and persecuted free speech afterwards, e.g. calling them heretics.
> It is clear who the heretics are today in the West. Therefore we know who is in power. In the 50s and 60s the left was for free speech because they were not in power ("liberal"). Humans are easier to read than an AI in a strategy game on easy settings.


This doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  Authoritarians always want to limit or eliminate the right to free speech, regardless of whether they identify as communist or fascist, and regardless of whether they hold power at a given time.  Since we don't have a leftist party in the US, let alone a far left one, the vast majority of authoritarian thinkers flock to the Republican party.


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Democracy is mob rule by the majority.



No, this is the republiKKKAn wet dream


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 10, 2022)

smf said:


> Some of us don't think people like Hitler/Putin/Trump should be able to get into power, even if >50% of the people vote for them. Because democracy isn't brainwashing people.



Which didn't happen either way tbh because if you remember trump was elected by a minority and Putin killed / incarcerated every opposition leader.


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 10, 2022)

Creamu said:


> And what about those you encounter in this forum?



I'll turn thr question on you: what do you make of those fanatics fascists that haunt these forums and happily claim they'd beat up "alphabet people" and murder others and rape their wives just because they think differently than them? Aren't those the signs of cult mentality and radicalisation to quasi terrorist behaviour?


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## Creamu (Aug 10, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> I'll turn thr question on you:


I will answer your question, but to be clear, I was talking about the caducean divide/rule of the establishment.



Dark_Ansem said:


> what do you make of those fanatics fascists that haunt these forums and happily claim they'd beat up "alphabet people" and murder others and rape their wives just because they think differently than them?


To people that take this particular position I would ask them if they are serious or what this is about, because those suggestions are not very appealing.



Dark_Ansem said:


> Aren't those the signs of cult mentality and radicalisation to quasi terrorist behaviour?


Cult? No, it sounds more like either shitposting or deranged individuals. To call this a cult you would need to demonstrate a coherent movement of wife rapers in this case.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Xzi said:


> I literally cannot find any source claiming this except you.  It's not even in Fox News articles about the bill.
> 
> 
> Oh okay, so it's just bullshit you picked up on 8chan or something.  Thanks for clarifying.
> ...


There are tons of stories in the state-run media denying that it increases taxes. Which as we all know with their 11% trust by the people, are liars.

Proposing bills and passing bills are two different things. Please go read and learn that difference. I'm getting real tired of having to explain the simplest of concepts to you.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> No, this is the republiKKKAn wet dream


It's literally the reason why the Founders chose not to create a democracy. Learn history. I'm really tired of explaining the basics of everything to all the leftists in this forum. Go.read.a.book.


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## Xzi (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Proposing bills and passing bills are two different things.


No shit Sherlock, and the executive both can propose legislation _and_ does sign bills into law. Trump could've just as easily vetoed it if he didn't like it, but if there's one thing he loves it's grifting the poors, which is why the corporate tax cuts stay permanent but middle and lower income tax brackets slowly increase to higher than what they were before. Stop being an idiotic sycophantic simp for _anybody_, let alone that geriatric orange sack of shit.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Xzi said:


> No shit Sherlock, and the executive both can propose legislation _and_ does sign bills into law. Trump could've just as easily vetoed it if he didn't like it, but if there's one thing he loves it's grifting the poors, which is why the corporate tax cuts stay permanent but middle and lower income tax brackets slowly increase to higher than what they were before. Stop being an idiotic sycophantic simp for _anybody_, let alone that geriatric orange sack of shit.


You obviously still do not understand how bills are passed, hence the insults. Trump signed what the RINO's passed. Talk to me when you learn to speak like an adult. While you're at it, go watch Schoolhouse Rocks.

PS. Your TDS is showing. Calm down. Maybe take up meditation.


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## Xzi (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Trump signed what the RINO's passed.


LMAO this is 100% what Republicans stand for, including Trump.  RINO my ass.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Xzi said:


> LMAO this is 100% what Republicans stand for, including Trump.  RINO my ass.


The Dems and Biden had a perfect opportunity to make the tax cuts permanent for the middle class. They chose not to. You gonna ever bring up that point or continue spouting nonsense about something that happened 6 years ago? If the Dems truly were for the little guy, they would eliminate income taxes for everybody making less than $400k, but they never do. And you'll never call them out on it. It's always "bUt DrUmPf" with you people, which makes me wonder why you always look to him to get things done when it's your party who is in complete control of passing laws for almost 2 years now. Weird.


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## Xzi (Aug 10, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The Dems and Biden had a perfect opportunity to make the tax cuts permanent for the middle class. They chose not to. You gonna ever bring up that point or continue spouting nonsense about something that happened 6 years ago? If the Dems truly were for the little guy, they would eliminate income taxes for everybody making less than $400k, but they never do. And you'll never call them out on it. It's always "bUt DrUmPf" with you people, which makes me wonder why you always look to him to get things done when it's your party who is in complete control of passing laws for almost 2 years now. Weird.


Dems are more about preventing progress from the left than actually opposing the right or its slow descent into fascism.  Of course I call them out on it, they're largely useless centrists.  That said, the blame falls much less on them for failing to undo shit legislation than it does on the people who created, sponsored, and approved it in the first place.  If you choose to ignore that truth and keep falling for every Republican-backed grift, so be it.  I can't fix chronic stupidity and gullibility.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 10, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Dems are more about preventing progress from the left than actually opposing the right or its slow descent into fascism.  Of course I call them out on it, they're largely useless centrists.  That said, the blame falls much less on them for failing to undo shit legislation than it does on the people who created, sponsored, and approved it in the first place.  If you choose to ignore that truth and keep falling for every Republican-backed grift, so be it.  I can't fix chronic stupidity and gullibility.


You are really falling on your sword to shift blame from your Dem masters. It's not a good look buddy. All that had to happen, at a minimum, was they could have extended the tax cuts for another 2 years. Instead, they raised them, during a recession with record inflation. I realize that your brain is programmed to be a partisan shill and your understanding of even basic economics is on par with your understanding of basic civics, but it's generally a bad idea to do this.

Not to mention hiring another 87,000 IRS agents knowing that three quarters of audits are against people making less than $100k. The people who can't afford high priced accountants and lawyers. The people the Dems say they support and want to help.

I'll have to disagree with you about not being able to fix chronic stupidity and gullibility. I'm confident that you can overcome them with time spent reading instead of whatever it is that you do here. Just the fact that taxes had to be cut in 2017 because they were raised during a Dem presidency shows the fallacy of your argument.


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 10, 2022)

Lol talking about tax cuts as if they helped the poorest: they don't. They only help the rich and well off.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 10, 2022)

Xzi said:


> This doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  Authoritarians always want to limit or eliminate the right to free speech, regardless of whether they identify as communist or fascist, and regardless of whether they hold power at a given time.  Since we don't have a leftist party in the US, let alone a far left one, the vast majority of authoritarian thinkers flock to the Republican party.


You are a victim of party politics. I´m talking about the big picture. What I said is absolutely correct: 
Humans as a collective are less tolerant when they are in power. The ´68 generation was against banning rock songs that displeased their parents. Today, the ´68 generation is in power and wants to ban songs they deem offensive, e.g. the song Layla in Germany at the moment. The line "La la la Layla, she was more beautiful, younger, hotter" is too offensive to the ´68 generation because it objectifies women, they claim.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Lol talking about tax cuts as if they helped the poorest: they don't. They only help the rich and well off.


So you are saying people keeping more of their paycheck does not help them provide for their families? Is that your final answer, because I would love to hear you explain how a single mother with a gross pay of $2,000 a month and paying say, $200 a month in taxes, would not benefit from that extra $200 each month? In a normal economy, that could be gas money for the entire month. How would a rich person benefit from a middle class tax cut? Please provide details. This should be good.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 11, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So you are saying people keeping more of their paycheck does not help them provide for their families?


TraderPaTX101:
Misconstrue the argument.
Anyways (since he did block me)
No, that's not what he said.


Dark_Ansem said:


> Lol talking about tax cuts as if they helped the poorest: they don't.


The implication is "passed and passable"
Both democrats and Republicans/maga are owned by corporations. They'll state they'll cut taxes, but in reality, as we saw with the 2017 tax situation, they don't (for the rest of us). It's incredibly unlikely that they will ever allow for an actual tax cut on poor people in full long term.
If you remember the 2017 tax situation did actually cut taxes for lower income people, and rich people. HOWEVER, the bracket that affects lower income earners in the legislation was set to increase from 2021-2027 in that same bill, to levels higher than what they were pre tax cut. While the brackets for richer income people, had no stipulation like that.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 11, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> TraderPaTX101:
> Misconstrue the argument.
> Anyways (since he did block me)
> No, that's not what he said.
> ...


You've been reduced to replying to me in short simple phrases that lack even context.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 11, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You've been reduced to replying to me in short simple phrases that lack even context.


Ah right I forgot that your a bit smooth brained and lack basic reading comprehension.


Nothereed said:


> *[Your comment]*
> TraderPaTX101:
> Misconstrue the argument.
> Anyways (since he did block me)
> ...



Maybe next time read the full response? Since surprise, I gave context.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 11, 2022)

The back and forth you two are having is really sweet in a way.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 11, 2022)

Creamu said:


> The back and forth you two are having is really sweet in a way.


more like a reoccurring headache. I don't think I have to explain how laying out an argument works. But here we are with trader refusing to be a honest actor. Since the layout of my argument literately is (boiled down simply)

Traders response to someone else
Me pointing out that his response is misconstruing that persons argument. (which he's done before)
comment that he misconstrued (providing context)
Me explaining how it was a misconstrued.
literately that simple.


----------



## Creamu (Aug 11, 2022)

You will figure it out.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You are a victim of party politics.



This from the Russian who literally suppoers Putin? Seriously?



Nothereed said:


> Ah right I forgot that your a bit smooth brained and lack basic reading comprehension.



"A bit". Damn boy you're so gentle.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So you are saying people keeping more of their paycheck does not help them provide for their families? Is that your final answer, because I would love to hear you explain how a single mother with a gross pay of $2,000 a month and paying say, $200 a month in taxes, would not benefit from that extra $200 each month? In a normal economy, that could be gas money for the entire month. How would a rich person benefit from a middle class tax cut? Please provide details. This should be good.


That's not what I said but hey, what else to expect from the guy who claims with granitic certainty that the Unites States were always meant to be a Republic but not a democracy, claiming that the answer is "in a book" but failing to specify which book (Mein Kampf?), since pretty much any US Law book will argue that the US were always meant to be a democracy. But you know better don't you? You and your ridiculous claims made in other threads, as well.

So yeah, I could explain it to you, but you're both too much of an imbecile AND a bad faith actor to engage not even constructively, but with civility. So why bother, since you're gonna reply half a minute later with some half arsed lie and insult?


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> This from the Russian who literally suppoers Putin? Seriously?


I´m not Russian. Having citizenship and belonging to a people are not the same.
I don´t support Putin. I support Xi. When they resolved a border dispute, they made a 50-50 deal, ignoring that Russia stole a huge part of China in the 19th century.

That said, can you contradict anything I have said? You can´t. That´s why you resort to irrelevant personal aspects. I repeat: Those who are for free speech today will be against it tomorrow once they seize power. It´s human nature. Today, the left is in power in the Western world. You don´t get censored for supporting BLM, LGBTQ etc, you might even get paid to participating in those events. If today´s free speech advocates seize power one day, they will limit it with regards to BLM, LGBTQ etc. It´s very unlikely, however. 

In the distant future it might happen if Latin Americans in the US or Muslims in Europe become more influential. Today, they are the leftists´ best friends, but they actually don´t share their values. There are no Latin Americans saying "Latinx" or Muslims in Germany using the weird glottal stop "*innen" in order to include transgender invididuals.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I´m not Russian. Having citizenship and belonging to a people are not the same.
> I don´t support Putin. I support Xi. When they resolved a border dispute, they made a 50-50 deal, ignoring that Russia stole a huge part of China in the 19th century.
> 
> That said, can you contradict anything I have said? You can´t. That´s why you resort to irrelevant personal aspects. I repeat: Those who are for free speech today will be against it tomorrow once they seize power. It´s human nature.


I obviously can, since it's a load of shite. You also contradict yourself, but that's another matter entirely.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> I obviously can, since it's a load of shite. You also contradict yourself, but that's another matter entirely.


Be more specific. I also added some content just now. What am I wrong about?


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Be more specific. I also added some content just now. What am I wrong about?


First of all, your nonsensical idea that "layla" is "getting banned" in Germany by the "68 generation". There is obviously no such thing. One city decided not to play it at a folk festival, which is attended by people of all ages, because its pretty much a song about a sex worker in a brothel. I believe you can understand why the festival organisers may feel it is inadequate. And it is by no means a ban, since it keeps topping listening charts in Germany and pretty much anyone who wants can play it. 

Are you saying that such things like compulsory playlists should exist?


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Today, the left is in power in the Western world. You don´t get censored for supporting BLM, LGBTQ etc, you might even get paid to participating in those events. If today´s free speech advocates seize power one day, they will limit it with regards to BLM, LGBTQ etc. It´s very unlikely, however


More contradictions and shite.

Left in power? At best the centre is in power.

Secondly, thank you for saying that "free speech advocates" are, in fact, reactionary fascists who want to censor literally anything they don't like. Which proves how all those "free speech champions" like Dumbo Jones or Ben Cretiniro are, in fact, only for listening to their own BS and could not care less for the freedom of others.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> In the distant future it might happen if Latin Americans in the US or Muslims in Europe become more influential. Today, they are the leftists´ best friends, but they actually don´t share their values. There are no Latin Americans saying "Latinx" or Muslims in Germany using the weird glottal stop "*innen" in order to include transgender invididuals.


So, more shite. First of all, Latin Americans in the US are by no means reactionary pigs. If you're talking about DR and Brazil, speak plainly, as you're just likely talking about people who don't represent the entirety of these folk.

Secondly, this whole idea of Muslisms becoming "more influential": it is my personal belief it won't happen. Children of Muslim immigrants in the west tend to appreciate western customs more than their parents'. So your fears of the west becoming a Muslim theocracy, a theory peddled by far right pundits, isn't likely to happen.


----------



## Acid_Snake (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> So, more shite. First of all, Latin Americans in the US are by no means reactionary pigs.


Except most of us are turning Republican because none of you in the left give a single fuck about us.
Good to know that the tolerant left calls me a pig after I had to flee a dictatorship that called me a maggot.
Of course you wouldn't know this since you never actually talk to latinos.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I´m not Russian. Having citizenship and belonging to a people are not the same.
> I don´t support Putin. I support Xi. When they resolved a border dispute, they made a 50-50 deal, ignoring that Russia stole a huge part of China in the 19th century.


Fuck Xi Jin Ping and fuck the National-Blosheviks that run that country. Your ideology will be your own undoing. You (metaphorically) "castrate" your own population and you wanna compete? With who? You can' evet have the best scientists, and you'll never have the best scientists. Science requires an open mind and new ideas, impossible things in a totalitarian shithole like China. You're gonna fall like Nazi Germany and the USSR fell: under the weight of  your own actions.


----------



## luisedgarf (Aug 11, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> Except most of us are turning Republican because none of you in the left give a single fuck about us.
> Good to know that the tolerant left calls me a pig after I had to flee a dictatorship that called me a maggot.
> Of course you wouldn't know this since you never actually talk to latinos.
> 
> ...


And that without mention their probable responsability in their whole coronavirus pandemic, due to the death of millions of people.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> Except most of us are turning Republican because none of you in the left give a single fuck about us.
> Good to know that the tolerant left calls me a pig after I had to flee a dictatorship that called me a maggot.
> Of course you wouldn't know this since you never actually talk to latinos.


Thats great, assuming I believe you, then you can happily vote for your deportation and for people who actually consider you maggots. Village idiots exist everywhere, and yours must be missing you. Which grievances you feel are being left unaddressed and somehow the Republicans will fix, considering they can't even fix their own issues? Do tell, dumbass.


luisedgarf said:


> And that without mention their probable responsability in their whole coronavirus pandemic, due to the death of millions of people.


The responsibility of the Republicans who claimed it was a hoax? Or the Chinese?


Acid_Snake said:


> Science requires an open mind and new ideas, impossible things in a totalitarian shithole like China.


Science requires also expertise and rigour, which the Chinese do possess. Also, noted how not a single word about Putin. You must be a particularly unpleasant Latin, where are you from again?


----------



## Acid_Snake (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Thats great, assuming I believe you, then you can happily vote for your deportation and for people who actually consider you maggots. Village idiots exist everywhere, and yours must be missing you. Which grievances you feel are being left unaddressed and somehow the Republicans will fix, considering they can't even fix their own issues? Do tell, dumbass.
> 
> The responsibility of the Republicans who claimed it was a hoax? Or the Chinese?
> 
> Science requires also expertise and rigour, which the Chinese do possess. Also, noted how not a single word about Putin. You must be a particularly unpleasant Latin, where are you from again?


oh now I remember, you're that brain dead iliterate amoeba that's unable to have a decent normal conversation so you resort to react with emojis like a 5 year old.

Have you learn any new vocabulary since the last time I schooled your ass?

Also, funny how it's a leftie that brought up deportation, never have I heard a republican talk to me about that.
Scratch a progressive and you'll find a fascist.

I lived in the US during Bush years without any papers, in one of the most blarantly Republican states of the country (Florida, you might have heard of it, though I doubt you'd be able to pinpoint it on a map). Nobody deported me, nor the many other latinos I met, as long as you weren't breaking any laws, I was able to study in public school, was able to get vaccinated and attend doctors, I lived my life like any other citizen. Everyone I ever met was republican, including the Latinos.

Also, I knew you were going to defend the Chinese, the ones building concentration camps to exterminate a racial minority.
The ones that censor black people in Hollywood movies, the ones that disappear political opponents, the Nazis of the 21st Century.

Little history lesson: modern medicine has a lot to "thank" the Nazis and their attrocities, so you are defending what the Nazis did.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> First of all, your nonsensical idea that "layla" is "getting banned" in Germany by the "68 generation". There is obviously no such thing. One city decided not to play it at a folk festival, which is attended by people of all ages, because its pretty much a song about a sex worker in a brothel. I believe you can understand why the festival organisers may feel it is inadequate. And it is by no means a ban, since it keeps topping listening charts in Germany and pretty much anyone who wants can play it.
> 
> Are you saying that such things like compulsory playlists should exist?


It was banned on festivals in two cities. Since the ´68 generation is currently running countries (though retiring soon), it is not difficult to see why they would ban this song. And we don´t even need to guess: it has been stated that the song is objectifying women. The sexual content is not a problem to them (e.g. "Ten naked female hairdressers").
But even if I agree with you that it was decency (religious or otherwise) that caused the song to be banned at
folk festivals, my argument still stands: Their right-wing parents (by today´s standards most of which would be racist, sexist, homophobes) banned "satanic" rock´n roll songs while the ´68 generation stood for freedom and liberty. But once in power, the ´68 generation wants to ban things they disapprove of and even demand people use certain pronouns etc.

BTW I used the word ban in the general sense. A ban does not have to be mean outlawed. Youtube can ban a video, for example.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Secondly, thank you for saying that "free speech advocates" are...


You´re welcome. I am able to analyze the situation. As I said, it´s human nature.
You said the centre is in power, not the left. A cheap way out.
Would you say it is more left than right?
Let´s compare: 
Jan 6th "insurrection: mild damage on the capitol, 1 death (of the protesters), persecution of the protesters
Summer of love 2020: damages in the billions, stores looted, people killed, government buildings attacked, a part of town occupied (speaking of insurrection...) called "Chaz"; going on for months across the country

The people in power play down the latter and hype up the former. We know who is in power. Just imagine the opposite had happened.



Dark_Ansem said:


> So, more shite. First of all, Latin Americans in the US are by no means reactionary pigs. If you're talking about DR and Brazil, speak plainly, as you're just likely talking about people who don't represent the entirety of these folk.
> 
> Secondly, this whole idea of Muslisms becoming "more influential": it is my personal belief it won't happen. Children of Muslim immigrants in the west tend to appreciate western customs more than their parents'. So your fears of the west becoming a Muslim theocracy, a theory peddled by far right pundits, isn't likely to happen.


Latin Americans vote more left but not as strongly as African Americans. Their views are often more conservative than the white liberal studies graduates who try to convince them to use the term "Latinx". 
We don´t need to speculate about Muslims. In Germany there is data on this: the 3rd generation is less integrated than the first (which makes sense: how can they identify with a people who hate themselves? they even came up with the term "victim" for Germans).
Imagine Germany 2050: Welfare has decreased. The Muslims have increased in number. They are younger and more ethnically aware. The Germans want to ban their practice of meat production which they interpret as an attack on their culture. I for one welcome our new overlords.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You are a victim of party politics. I´m talking about the big picture. What I said is absolutely correct:
> Humans as a collective are less tolerant when they are in power. The ´68 generation was against banning rock songs that displeased their parents. Today, the ´68 generation is in power and wants to ban songs they deem offensive, e.g. the song Layla in Germany at the moment. The line "La la la Layla, she was more beautiful, younger, hotter" is too offensive to the ´68 generation because it objectifies women, they claim.


The intolerant stay intolerant regardless of whether they control all the power or none of it.  Calls for civility and a degree of self moderation in speech are not the same thing as calls to ban free speech.  When it comes to vehemently opposing freedom of speech, the most prominent example I can think of would be burning books, and again, that's an activity almost entirely exclusive to one side of the political spectrum; at least here in the US.


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Secondly, this whole idea of Muslisms becoming "more influential": it is my personal belief it won't happen. Children of Muslim immigrants in the west tend to appreciate western customs more than their parents'. So your fears of the west becoming a Muslim theocracy, a theory peddled by far right pundits, isn't likely to happen.


if anything this could be used as an excuse to install a christian theocracy for them aka
scapegoat one religion to stoke another to gain power


----------



## Nothereed (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Jan 6th "insurrection: mild damage on the capitol, 1 death (of the protesters), persecution of the protesters


Really?


UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Summer of love 2020: damages in the billions, stores looted, people killed, government buildings attacked, a part of town occupied (speaking of insurrection...) called "Chaz"; going on for months across the country


Really... Do I really _sigh_

Okay. let's talk  the part you left out.


UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Jan 6th "insurrection: mild damage on the capitol, 1 death (of the protesters), persecution of the protesters


First off, this was marching into the capital building.
Second off, this STOPPED the election certification process.
Thirdly, they were chanting "Hang Mike Pence" we also know now from the Oath Keepers. that they wanted to do harm to Nancy Pelosi.
Fourthly, TRUMP KNEW they had weapons.
Fifthly uh, pipe bombs???? remember that???

And also by the way, I really love how you said "persecution of the protestors"
Because let's not kid ourselves for a even a second. Those weren't protestors that entered that building. They had one goal, to reinstall Trump as president. May it be believing what he said as genuine and acting on that rage. Or through Proud boys/Oath Keepers, who are fascists who want to take power.


UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Summer of love 2020: damages in the billions, stores looted, people killed, government buildings attacked, a part of town occupied (speaking of insurrection...) called "Chaz"; going on for months across the country


This simply isn't going to compare in your favor. You cannot compare a coup attempt of a fucking government, to months worth of protests and damages. Chaz wasn't even a insurrection. They didn't try to forcefully overtake the government by threatening the election process or leaders. Jan 6th tried to do that.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> Have you learn any new vocabulary since the last time I schooled your ass?


Eh? We have never engaged before, and you certainly can't school anybody with your ridiculous lies


Acid_Snake said:


> Also, I knew you were going to defend the Chinese, the ones building concentration camps to exterminate a racial minority.


I didn't defend anybody. Man, you so need to get back to school.


Acid_Snake said:


> Also, funny how it's a leftie that brought up deportation, never have I heard a republican talk to me about that.


Maybe you need to clean your ears then? they must be full of wax and shite.


Acid_Snake said:


> I lived in the US during Bush years without any papers, in one of the most blarantly Republican states of the country (Florida, you might have heard of it, though I doubt you'd be able to pinpoint it on a map). Nobody deported me, nor the many other latinos I met, as long as you weren't breaking any laws, I was able to study in public school, was able to get vaccinated and attend doctors, I lived my life like any other citizen. Everyone I ever met was republican, including the Latinos.


Oh, my word, anectodes which can't be verified, how truthful. 

I seriously don't remember who you are.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It was banned on festivals in two cities. Since the ´68 generation is currently running countries (though retiring soon), it is not difficult to see why they would ban this song. And we don´t even need to guess: it has been stated that the song is objectifying women. The sexual content is not a problem to them (e.g. "Ten naked female hairdressers").
> But even if I agree with you that it was decency (religious or otherwise) that caused the song to be banned at
> folk festivals, my argument still stands: Their right-wing parents (by today´s standards most of which would be racist, sexist, homophobes) banned "satanic" rock´n roll songs while the ´68 generation stood for freedom and liberty. But once in power, the ´68 generation wants to ban things they disapprove of and even demand people use certain pronouns etc.
> 
> BTW I used the word ban in the general sense. A ban does not have to be mean outlawed. Youtube can ban a video, for example.


They simply decided not to air it, and it's not like they HAD to. So I'm not sure why you're getting so hung up for a song about hookers?


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Latin Americans vote more left but not as strongly as African Americans. Their views are often more conservative than the white liberal studies graduates who try to convince them to use the term "Latinx".
> We don´t need to speculate about Muslims. In Germany there is data on this: the 3rd generation is less integrated than the first (which makes sense: how can they identify with a people who hate themselves? they even came up with the term "victim" for Germans).
> Imagine Germany 2050: Welfare has decreased. The Muslims have increased in number. They are younger and more ethnically aware. The Germans want to ban their practice of meat production which they interpret as an attack on their culture. I for one welcome our new overlords.


Ah, imagine X = make up stuff to justify your nonsense.


UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You´re welcome. I am able to analyze the situation. As I said, it´s human nature.
> You said the centre is in power, not the left. A cheap way out.
> Would you say it is more left than right?
> Let´s compare:
> ...


No, you're really not, as you're kinda lost in your web of contradictions and lies.
Ah, so the truth is a cheap way out, ok, great to know.

Jan 6 terror attack, incited by the former US president? that terror attack?

Summer of 2020: attacks carried out by the Proud Boys, the far right fascist group, masquerading as BLM protesters.
People killed? You mean by the murderer Rittenhouse or by the police? Those people?

The people in power in 2020 were the RepubliKKKans, did you forget?


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> Also, I knew you were going to defend the Chinese, the ones building concentration camps to exterminate a racial minority.
> The ones that censor black people in Hollywood movies, the ones that disappear political opponents, the Nazis of the 21st Century.
> 
> Little history lesson: modern medicine has a lot to "thank" the Nazis and their attrocities, so you are defending what the Nazis did.


You're literally not making sense and I highly doubt you'd school a toddler, let alone me. But you seem the unhinged crazy type. Please do follow the nice men in the white coat


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 11, 2022)

Free speech is unironically not real as a concept because one person's speech will end up suppressing or even outright silencing another's, and many intend to do so with it. The idea of a big, equal world where everyone can communicate freely with one another is nothing more than a delusional pipe dream at best, and a lie pushed by people who just want to espouse far right views with no repercussions whatsoever at worst.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Free speech is unironically not real as a concept because one person's speech will end up suppressing or even outright silencing another's, and many intend to do so with it. The idea of a big, equal world where everyone can communicate freely with one another is nothing more than a delusional pipe dream at best, and a lie pushed by people who just want to espouse far right views with no repercussions whatsoever at worst.


Isn't it hilarious, in a very tragic way, that for all his talk about imaginary child exploitation rings and homophobic talk Fatso Jones was found with trans (not unlike someone else here on GBA temp) and child porn on his phone?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Isn't it hilarious, in a very tragic way, that for all his talk about imaginary child exploitation rings and homophobic talk Fatso Jones was found with trans (not unlike someone else here on GBA temp) and child porn on his phone?


Yeah, not at all surprising.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Isn't it hilarious, in a very tragic way, that for all his talk about imaginary child exploitation rings and homophobic talk Fatso Jones was found with trans (not unlike someone else here on GBA temp) and child porn on his phone?


Oh holy shit, for real?  The amount of schadenfreude is making my brain melt.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 11, 2022)

I don't understand why there are so many people on the right saying that leftists want to take away free speech.  there are a vocal minority who want to ban words and create safe-spaces, but that's a vocal minority,  most of the leftists and centrists don't want to ban any sort of speech.

I myself believe in self-policing;  you say something stupid using your free speech rights, you're gonna pay for the consequences.  If you're talking about Facebook (and other social media platforms) blocking posts and banning certain hot words, then that's not a free speech issue,  that's a "you're using the wrong platform" issue.  When you sign up for those social medias, you agree to terms of service that they put down, and they have the right to prevent you from using that platform if you're not following their rules.  Also, might I remind you that many of these social media outlets service more than just the US as well, which may or may not have free speech rules.  Again, and I cannot stress this enough,  use a different outlet if you have problems with it.  Not to mention, plenty of people on the other side of the political spectrum get banned all the time and bitch about the same issues.  It doesn't matter if you're left, or right, both sides suffer from these policies.

Also, my apologies to anyone who takes issue with this term, but it's the best term to explain the group of people who actually want to remove free speech:  the "warriors of social justice" are not your typical leftists.  They're typically hypocritical people who want not equality, but a shift of power, and they're few and far between.  Most of the time when I see someone fitting this description talk, they only want what's best for their lifestyle, and want to bitch about literally every little infraction that may be taken as a social rights issue(and then proceed to turn around and ignore their own cries).  Most actual leftists I know just want to be able to live their lives without people causing them trouble.  We want to keep our rights, our body autonomy, and maybe sprinkle some things in there to limit large entities destroying people's right to a pursuit of happiness.

Free speech as far as I can tell personally, isn't in jepoardy,  and it likely never will be, but as always, there will always be consequences of what you say, and if you say some stupid shit, be prepared to deal with the consequences (looking at you Alex Jones).


----------



## Acid_Snake (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> You're literally not making sense and I highly doubt you'd school a toddler, let alone me. But you seem the unhinged crazy type. Please do follow the nice men in the white coat


I know I can't make sense to someone like you, let me dumb it down a bit: hurr durr derpy derp herr


----------



## Acid_Snake (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Eh? We have never engaged before, and you certainly can't school anybody with your ridiculous lies
> 
> I didn't defend anybody. Man, you so need to get back to school.
> 
> ...


wow you lefties sure are all full of love and tolerance.
I specially love how I, a latino that lived in the US, must shut up and let the white kid school me on how being a latino in the US is.



LainaGabranth said:


> Free speech is unironically not real as a concept because one person's speech will end up suppressing or even outright silencing another's, and many intend to do so with it. The idea of a big, equal world where everyone can communicate freely with one another is nothing more than a delusional pipe dream at best, and a lie pushed by people who just want to espouse far right views with no repercussions whatsoever at worst.


If freedom of speech didn't exist (like it does in certain countries that you people love so much), you would have disappeared merely for pointing out such lack of free speech.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

mituzora said:


> I don't understand why there are so many people on the right saying that leftists want to take away free speech. there are a vocal minority who want to ban words and create safe-spaces, but that's a vocal minority, most of the leftists and centrists don't want to ban any sort of speech.


There isn't. It's a lie peddled by the right.


----------



## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

Acid_Snake said:


> I specially love how I, a latino that lived in the US, must shut up and let the white kid school me on how being a latino in the US is.


Not at all what happened and I seriously doubt we ever talked, you must be off your meds.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> You cannot compare a coup attempt of a fucking government, to months worth of protests and damages. Chaz wasn't even a insurrection. They didn't try to forcefully overtake the government by threatening the election process or leaders. Jan 6th tried to do that.


If even a mild attempt at a coup is so horrible, what are we doing supporting Ukraine?



mituzora said:


> Free speech as far as I can tell personally, isn't in jepoardy,  and it likely never will be, but as always, there will always be consequences of what you say, and if you say some stupid shit, be prepared to deal with the consequences (looking at you Alex Jones).


In Europe you can be thrown in jail for showing the letter Z, questioning historical facts or insulting political figures or groups of people. Free speech is an American concept which was upheld by people who wanted freedom so much (religious freedom back then) that they crossed the freaking ocean. We know that political views are partly heritable. With a changing population the politics will also change, including free speech. I´m not a free speech advocate by the way. If I was the king of the world, you damn sure would tell me how great I am every day (cf the Christian idea that Christ was extremely peaceful but one day will crush every creature who does not worship him).


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## smf (Aug 11, 2022)

mituzora said:


> you say something stupid using your free speech rights, you're gonna pay for the consequences.


The problem with the right is they believe there should be no consequences, because free speech means you can say what you want & if you try to impose consequences then you have violated their free speech.

Of course, they change their tune if someone says something they disagree with. But that is because they are pieces of shit.


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## Acid_Snake (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> Not at all what happened and I seriously doubt we ever talked, you must be off your meds.


You can't even remember your own written words? Is everyone on the left with dementia or something? Or is it pure cynism?
Maybe if go outside to get some fresh air every once in a while you wouldn't be having memory issues.

Now I know it's hard for you, who probably haven't seen the light of day since January 6th 2021 (probably scared a walking meme generator like the ones who "threatned democracy at the capitol", lol imagine being scared of those people), but I can asure you there's a whole world out there outside your mind.

Also you seem to not have latino friends considering that you have no idea how latinos think or behave, and you also seem to hate them and consider them inferior people who aren't worth listening to.

I suggest you to open your mind a little bit, let go of the prejudices, hatred and biggotry, and meet different people every now and then.


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## mituzora (Aug 11, 2022)

smf said:


> The problem with the right is they believe there should be no consequences, because free speech means you can say what you want & if you try to impose consequences then you have violated their free speech.
> 
> Of course, they change their tune if someone says something they disagree with. But that is because they are pieces of shit.


I'm more or less referring to self-policing.  not policies actively stifling free speech.  it's like calling someone a really bad racial slur.  It's protected as free speech, but that doesn't mean you're not gonna get your ass beat for saying it.

In the case of Alex Jones, he's getting sued for using his free speech to cause major turmoil to a group of people, that's his punishment.  it's not like the law is saying he couldn't tell people Sandy Hook was fake, but he certainly suffered consequences for saying 

Edit: I misunderstood what you were saying.  I misread your comment.  I don't think you misunderstood what I was saying, as initially stated.  Now that I reread your comment, I agree.  they think they should be able to say said racial slur, and be able to not get beat up for it.


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## JonhathonBaxster (Aug 11, 2022)

mituzora said:


> I don't understand why there are so many people on the right saying that leftists want to take away free speech.  there are a vocal minority who want to ban words and create safe-spaces, but that's a vocal minority,  most of the leftists and centrists don't want to ban any sort of speech.
> 
> I myself believe in self-policing;  you say something stupid using your free speech rights, you're gonna pay for the consequences.  If you're talking about Facebook (and other social media platforms) blocking posts and banning certain hot words, then that's not a free speech issue,  that's a "you're using the wrong platform" issue.  When you sign up for those social medias, you agree to terms of service that they put down, and they have the right to prevent you from using that platform if you're not following their rules.  Also, might I remind you that many of these social media outlets service more than just the US as well, which may or may not have free speech rules.  Again, and I cannot stress this enough,  use a different outlet if you have problems with it.  Not to mention, plenty of people on the other side of the political spectrum get banned all the time and bitch about the same issues.  It doesn't matter if you're left, or right, both sides suffer from these policies.
> 
> ...



There's are members of that vocal minority on this site. I'm just glad the rest of the left laughs at their idiocy.


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## Dark_Ansem (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> In Europe you can be thrown in jail for showing the letter Z


This is a barefaced lie.


Acid_Snake said:


> You can't even remember your own written words? Is everyone on the left with dementia or something? Or is it pure cynism?
> Maybe if go outside to get some fresh air every once in a while you wouldn't be having memory issues.
> 
> Now I know it's hard for you, who probably haven't seen the light of day since January 6th 2021 (probably scared a walking meme generator like the ones who "threatned democracy at the capitol", lol imagine being scared of those people), but I can asure you there's a whole world out there outside your mind.
> ...


LOL at the pathetic hypocrisy and, in general, pathetic behaviour fuelled by your pathetic assumptions LMAO Calling others for "prejudice hatred and bigotry" when you're nothing more than a "living" meme of insults. Seriously, TAKE YOUR MEDS!

Imagine thinking you can school me when you fail at basic grammar and syntax.

And I seriously have no idea who you are.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2022)

Dark_Ansem said:


> This is a barefaced lie.


No.

German criminal code § 140:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__140.html
translation: up to three years in prison for those who condone war

And here is an article about how it was put in practice recently regarding the Ukraine war
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__140.html
translation: 140 people have been accused; showing the letter Z is interpreted differently by the different states


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## bazamuffin (Aug 11, 2022)

Your threads are seriously wank


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## RAHelllord (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> No.
> 
> German criminal code § 140:
> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__140.html
> ...


$140 specifies the entire range of things that are punishable, but does not say that every act gets the same punishment. You will get fined for openly proclaiming support by wearing an insignia or symbol in public that condones war crimes, or actions of war criminals. But you absolutely have to do much more than just that to get a prison sentence.

It's the same with the nazi salute in Germany. The law specifies that showing symbols like that in public can be punished with jail, and yet it literally only gets a fine unless there's more than just that.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 11, 2022)

RAHelllord said:


> $140 specifies the entire range of things that are punishable, but does not say that every act gets the same punishment. You will get fined for openly proclaiming support by wearing an insignia or symbol in public that condones war crimes, or actions of war criminals. But you absolutely have to do much more than just that to get a prison sentence.
> 
> It's the same with the nazi salute in Germany. The law specifies that showing symbols like that in public can be punished with jail, and yet it literally only gets a fine unless there's more than just that.


Irrelevant. I said you can go to jail for free speech in Europe. He called it a lie. I refuted him.
Are you saying I could not go to jail if I were in Germany and publicly lauded the Russian "special military operation"?

The legal consequences of a Nazi salute are also a restriction of free speech.


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## Nothereed (Aug 11, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> In Europe you can be thrown in jail for showing the letter Z,





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Irrelevant. I said you can go to jail for free speech in Europe. He called it a lie. I refuted him.


Yeah  because your fucking premise/initial argument was garbage. Really like how ya'll do the same disgenious crap.

You: you can get thrown in jail  for the letter Z
Dark: no that's bullshit.
Someone else:yeah that's also bullshit
You: but see! I meant free speech, not the letter Z. I'm totally being a complete contrarian and very smart.


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## linuxares (Aug 11, 2022)

You bastards need to stop being in the political section

EDIT: Found UltraDolphinRevolution's source - https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1257046.shtml (CCP Crap paper)


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