# Children being sexually abused, given psychotropic drugs in ICE detention centers



## Xzi (Jul 31, 2018)

https://www.propublica.org/article/...molesting-eight-children-at-immigrant-shelter

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...dren-subjected-to-widespread-abuse-by-officia

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna895966

This is no longer defensible in any way, even if a person was somehow able to previously justify jailing children six years old and younger.  These children are being treated like prisoners of war.



> Among the allegations, U.S. officials are said to have:
> 
> 
> Denied a pregnant minor medical attention when she reported pain, which preceded a stillbirth.
> ...


*A short list from just _one _of the articles

As far as I'm concerned, anybody involved with this shit, up to and including Trump, deserve nothing less than the guillotine.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 31, 2018)

Jesus Fuck


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## ChaoticCinnabon (Jul 31, 2018)

America's declined, now they're punishing the victim like the middle East does!? Sometimes I just get so sick hearing how barbaric our neighbors can be... I don't hate America but holy shit they've lived up to their asshole stereotype.


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## spotanjo3 (Jul 31, 2018)

Not surprised. I dont hate America either but not my favorite country at all, thought. Anyway, America is crazy like this sexual abuse, sad, indeed.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 1, 2018)

Assuming this is the case then I am not sure why shut down would be the response as opposed to rework from the top down. Or if you prefer then failure of implementation rather than failure of concept and I can't see a failure of implementation as inevitable in this case.


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## Hanafuda (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> As far as I'm concerned, anybody involved with this shit, up to and including Trump, deserve *nothing less than the guillotine.*




So, everyone in the Trump administration, _and_ everyone who was part of the Obama administration too, up to and including Obama? I'm on board.




> Among the allegations, U.S. officials are said to have:
> 
> 
> Denied a pregnant minor medical attention when she reported pain, which preceded a stillbirth.
> ...





According to your npr link, all those things happened between 2009 and 2014. *Obama*.


.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 1, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> So, everyone in the Trump administration, _and_ everyone who was part of the Obama administration too, up to and including Obama? I'm on board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just because a Democrat did it doesn't make it in any way better. I highly regard FDR in many regards but his administration forcing Japanese-native citizens into concentration camps is unforgivable. This is the same thing, overall good President who's administration did heinous shit that they definitely should be held accountable for


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## Hanafuda (Aug 1, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Just because a Democrat did it doesn't make it in any way better. I highly regard FDR in many regards but his administration forcing Japanese-native citizens into concentration camps is unforgivable. This is the same thing, overall good President who's administration did heinous shit that they definitely should be held accountable for




So, you vote guillotine for Obama too, then?

I'm being a bit facetious here, and you and I typically get along so I'll own up to that. Can't help but score a point when it's right there in front of you. But no need to deflect to FDR, let's keep this in the now. The big FED machine is a multi-headed hydra and its main objective, certainly far above the welfare of the people, is self-preservation and growth. Trump probably didn't know any more about the family separation issue before it broke than Obama did, but once it did break it's really Congress that needs to act, not the President. The legislative branch passed the laws that necessitated family separation, sometime back in the Clinton years IIRC. Trump can issue an executive order, and he did .. and judges can issue orders, and they have ... but the law is still the same now as it has been for years. And the machine's gonna keep running according to its programming day-in, day-out, regardless of who's in the White House, until the programming is changed. And btw this all did come to light while Obama was President and the media wouldn't report it, and Pelosi stressed then that we shouldn't politicize it. The tunes people whistle sure do change. 

The real solution to the problem is a secure border, but that idea offends some people for some reason.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 1, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> The real solution to the problem is a secure border, but that idea offends some people for some reason.


I disagree, and I'd cite the EU as evidence

And no, I'd never nominate anyone for the guillotine in this day and age. I will say though that there are some politicians that could do to have PAC/lobbyist funding cut off entirely, for example


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> So, everyone in the Trump administration, _and_ everyone who was part of the Obama administration too, up to and including Obama? I'm on board.
> 
> According to your npr link, all those things happened between 2009 and 2014. *Obama*.


You're not wrong.  Just goes to show that scumbags lie in wait for their opportunity inside agencies like ICE and Border Protection.  Then people like Trump come along and enable them even further through mass detention of children.



Carnelian said:


> (((LGBT))) : "Pedophilia is normal and should be legal, after all love is love"


This is incredibly bigoted and ignorant, many (if not most) cases involving pedophiles are straight men.


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## Carnelian (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> You're not wrong.  Just goes to show that scumbags lie in wait for their opportunity inside agencies like ICE and Border Protection.  Then people like Trump come along and enable them even further through mass detention of children.
> 
> 
> This is incredibly bigoted and ignorant, many (if not most) cases involving pedophiles are straight men.



https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1024306072604037122


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

Carnelian said:


> https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1024306072604037122


Wow, a tweet from a guy with a well-known political bias.  That totally legitimizes your moronic hateful statement.  /s


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## Chary (Aug 1, 2018)

Friendly reminder that flamebait, racism, and name-calling with slurs is against the rules.


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## Wolfy (Aug 1, 2018)

Wow, everyone's going to town on this news, yes it sucks, and what they do is inexcusable. But honestly they keep coming and it's not making the situation any better, with all these people that get stuck here just to send them back is stupidity. I've got no problem with these people trying to escape from horrible countries but gosh dang we can't be expected to baby-sit them and pay for all of it when there's so many.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 1, 2018)

Wolfy said:


> Wow, everyone's going to town on this news, yes it sucks, and what they do is inexcusable. But honestly they keep coming and it's not making the situation any better, with all these people that get stuck here just to send them back is stupidity. I've got no problem with these people trying to escape from horrible countries but gosh dang we can't be expected to baby-sit them and pay for all of it when there's so many.


Well... Why not? Many asylum seekers demonstrate that they're willing to work for pay, so it's not even like we're just playing host to them. As a matter of fact, you could really say they're doing us a favor economically, considering they aren't actually entitled to tax-related benefits until they complete citizenship, in spite of contributing to the national GDP and in most cases even paying taxes as required


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## ChaosEternal (Aug 1, 2018)

Is this even news? Sounds like how our prison system treats US citizens everyday. If we can't even treat our own countrymen right, why would anyone expect us to treat other people well? If this deserves the guillotine, then we're going to have to be executing a lot of people. And not just people in this administration, but people from the previous one too and probably every one before that for decades.


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## erikas (Aug 1, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I disagree, and I'd cite the EU as evidence
> 
> And no, I'd never nominate anyone for the guillotine in this day and age. I will say though that there are some politicians that could do to have PAC/lobbyist funding cut off entirely, for example


I would cite the EU as evidence to the opposite. Everything was fine when it was just the rich countries collaborating and opening borders between them. But then everything went to shit when they decided to let people from backwards countries, most of whom are religious fanatics, in. To get into EU a country had to fit certain criteria. Mexico fits none of them.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 1, 2018)

erikas said:


> I would cite the EU as evidence to the opposite. Everything was fine when it was just the rich countries collaborating and opening borders between them. But then everything went to shit when they decided to let people from backwards countries, most of whom are religious fanatics, in. To get into EU a country had to fit certain criteria. Mexico fits none of them.


Could you expand on that a bit? I feel like you're trying to make a good point but it's being muddied by phrasing that makes your post sound rather elitist, entitled, and slightly ignorant to requirements to become an EU member country

Note that's not me being snarky, it's just my observation and me trying to prod a bit more of an explanation out of you


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

MaverickWellington said:


> Can we fuck off with this pedo buzzword? You're literally devaluing the word from "immoral human being who preys upon the innocence of youth" to "literally anyone left of far-right on the political spectrum" and it's making you look stupid. You're literally making Xzi look like a beacon of sanity by comparison and he has meltdowns any time Trump wipes his ass.


I refuse to pretend there's some form of normalcy to the things Trump and his administration do.  You do a great job of isolating a big issue here: Trump's base loves accusing anybody they disagree with of being pedophiles, because it's the most damning thing they can think up.  When you present them with actual documented cases of pedophilia, however, they stay silent or try to deflect because the accused almost never fits their narrative.  At the same time they run candidates like Roy Moore.  Goes to show how little the right wing actually cares about atrocities like child abuse, it's just a political baseball for them.



ChaosEternal said:


> Is this even news? Sounds like how our prison system treats US citizens everyday.


Detaining and abusing children as young as six is not an everyday thing, no.  We haven't traditionally had pre-school correction centers.  Definitely a new low, unless you count Japanese internment camps, but even there at least families were kept together.


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## ChaosEternal (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Detaining and abusing children as young as six is not an everyday thing, no.  We haven't traditionally had pre-school correction centers.  Definitely a new low, unless you count Japanese internment camps, but even there families were kept together.


I wasn't referring to the detaining, I meant the specific instances you listed. All of them bring to mind other cases I've seen over the past few years regarding our prison system. If anything, the fact that our prison system affects millions as opposed to thousands in this case may make it the true low, although there is little point in arguing which is worse. My true point was that a lot of that abuse goes on every day in our normal prison system and nobody does a damn thing. Physical beatings, intentional denial of medical care, invasive searches, piss-poor treatment in general, all of it is practically endemic to our awful system.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 1, 2018)

if this was the bible, an angel with a flaming sword would've turned the us into a giant smoldering crater by now.


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## Thunder Hawk (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> abusing children as young as six



Reminder that the child mentioned in https://www.thenation.com/article/six-year-old-girl-sexually-abused-immigrant-detention-center/ was "sexually abused" by " another child being held at the same detention facility."
Just saying. It sounded like you were trying to say that an adult did it.


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

ChaosEternal said:


> I wasn't referring to the detaining, I meant the specific instances you listed. All of them bring to mind other cases I've seen over the past few years regarding our prison system. If anything, the fact that our prison system affects millions as opposed to thousands in this case may make it the true low, although there is little point in arguing which is worse. My true point was that a lot of that abuse goes on every day in our normal prison system and nobody does a damn thing. Physical beatings, intentional denial of medical care, invasive searches, piss-poor treatment in general, all of it is practically endemic to our awful system.


There are definitely plenty of problems within our prison system, starting with the fact that we have more people incarcerated than any modern first-world country.  However, one problem doesn't eclipse the next.  We can't use a single negative thing about America to justify sliding into complete moral/ethical degeneracy.  For example, genocide isn't okay just because we have the adversity of a prison industrial complex to deal with.



Thunder Hawk said:


> Reminder that the child mentioned in https://www.thenation.com/article/six-year-old-girl-sexually-abused-immigrant-detention-center/ was "sexually abused" by " another child being held at the same detention facility."
> Just saying. It sounded like you were trying to say an adult did that.


You're correct.  Unfortunately there seems to be a long pattern of this type of behavior from ICE officials.  Google turns up a lot of results, here are just a few more:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/immigrant-children-allege-abuse-at-virginia-detention-center

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/21/us/u...en-detention-facilities-abuse-invs/index.html

http://www.endisolation.org/sexual-assault-in-immigration-detention/

Over 33,126 complaints about sexual abuse since 2010, only 570 have been investigated.  These are just the cases we know about.  Recently, ICE has been trying to destroy records on mistreatment of detainees:

https://www.newsweek.com/us-histori...ice-erasing-records-agencys-treatment-1049158


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## JellyPerson (Aug 1, 2018)

Sorry I have to be so blunt, but pedos aren't humans. They're animals.


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> Sorry I have to be so blunt, but pedos aren't humans. They're animals.


It's definitely one of those crimes that I feel a person should get the death penalty or life in prison for, no wiggle room.


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## JellyPerson (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> It's definitely one of those crimes that I feel a person should get the death penalty or life in prison for, no wiggle room.


EVERYTHING is wrong with impregnating a child who hasn't hit puberty.


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

I'm going to write something that not many people might agree with, so let me clarify that I don't mind any race or any gender. I also believe in human rights.





Xzi said:


> Denied a pregnant minor medical attention when she reported pain, which preceded a stillbirth.


Boy who cried wolf. How many times can people there claim pain until people just stop caring?


Xzi said:


> Subjected a 16-year-old girl to a search in which they "forcefully spread her legs and touched her private parts so hard that she screamed."


Wouldn't have to do that if cartels weren't using a lot of these "innocent women" to smuggle drugs and weapons.


Xzi said:


> Left a 4-lb. premature baby and her minor mother in an overcrowded and dirty cell filled with sick people, against medical advice.


Shouldn't have come here illegally then. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


Xzi said:


> Threw out a child's birth certificate and threatened him with sexual abuse by an adult male detainee.


I need more context about this.


Xzi said:


> Ran over a 17-year-old with a patrol vehicle and then punched him repeatedly.


Again, I need more context for this.

This being said, nothing like this would've happened if they weren't crossing the border illegally. But they still did. A lot of them are also used to smuggle illegal stuff too, so of course it was a matter of time before the law brought the heavy fist.

And before you lecture me about human rights, please make sure to think if you ever chipped in the war on drugs, on drugs' side. Because if you did, where were you when cartels were smuggling your drugs using kids?





Xzi said:


> These children are being treated like prisoners of war.


Maybe stop using them like pawns and we wouldn't need to put an end to this.

Did ICE forcibly remove these people from a place they had the right to live in? Did they travel down to Mexico to wreck havoc to innocent people? No. They caught people who knew very well what they were doing.

You need to understand that yes, not all illegals are criminal. But this exploit is allowing many criminals to swarm in, using a method that's still illegal. Look at what's happening in Europe with fights and murder inside refugee shelters getting less rare by the day. Borders exist to keep the scum out. You aren't scum? Then you have no reason not to enter the state legally.


Again, I don't mind any race or gender and this post would've been the same if canadian authorities were doing the same with illegals from the US.


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## JiveTheTurkey (Aug 1, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Just because a Democrat did it doesn't make it in any way better.


Why is it now that people are outraged over these appalling situations when a Republican is in office? Let alone blame him for doing what the guy before him was doing.


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

JiveTheTurkey said:


> Why is it now that people are outraged over these appalling situations when a Republican is in office? Let alone blame him for doing what the guy before him was doing.


Because he's not doing what the guy before him was doing.  Families were not separated under Obama.  The process of deportation and ICE under Obama wasn't much better, and he took some flack for that, but the mass detention of children and scamming their parents into signing their rights away is a Trump special that he has to own.  Especially since it's clear now that they won't be able to reunite the majority of families.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Snip


"You crossed the border illegally" = "we have free reign to commit any illegal acts against you?"  So much for all that freedom and liberty America is supposed to have.  Ever jaywalked?  Police now have the right to have sex with your children.


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well... Why not? Many asylum seekers demonstrate that they're willing to work for pay, so it's not even like we're just playing host to them. As a matter of fact, you could really say they're doing us a favor economically, considering they aren't actually entitled to tax-related benefits until they complete citizenship, in spite of contributing to the national GDP and in most cases even paying taxes as required


If you own a company, you can hire these people for less than any other US resident would accept. This lets businesses be scumbags and increase the unemployment for non-skilled labor, since everyone would hire illegal immigrants. And no, just because someone didn't go to college or isn't particularly skilled doesn't mean that they deserve to live on the streets.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ChaosEternal said:


> Is this even news? Sounds like how our prison system treats US citizens everyday. If we can't even treat our own countrymen right, why would anyone expect us to treat other people well? If this deserves the guillotine, then we're going to have to be executing a lot of people. And not just people in this administration, but people from the previous one too and probably every one before that for decades.


Also keep in mind that rape in prison is often seen as a hilarious side-effect of being in prison.


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## Viri (Aug 1, 2018)

Clydefrosch said:


> if this was the bible, an angel with a flaming sword would've turned the us into a giant smoldering crater by now.


Like wise, your country would have been a giant smoldering crater in the 40's.


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> "You crossed the border illegally" = "we have free reign to commit any illegal acts against you?"  So much for all that freedom and liberty America is supposed to have.  Ever jaywalked?  Police now have the right to have sex with your children.


Where have they abused children? You admitted that one was abused by another "child" that were illegally crossing the border. Also, I don't smuggle billions of dollars of drugs into the country by jaywalking.


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> If you own a company, you can hire these people for less than any other US resident would accept. This lets businesses be scumbags and increase the unemployment for non-skilled labor, since everyone would hire illegal immigrants. And no, just because someone didn't go to college or isn't particularly skilled doesn't mean that they deserve to live on the streets.


This is assuming there's a lot more interest in these positions from Americans than there actually is.  We're going on several years of a labor shortage for farm work now.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-06-01/u-s-farms-need-more-immigrant-workers

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Where have they abused children? You admitted that one was abused by another "child" that were illegally crossing the border. Also, I don't smuggle billions of dollars of drugs into the country by jaywalking.


You obviously didn't read the links I posted in that same reply, which document a lot more cases of abuse, both sexual and non-sexual.  I guess everything else including forcing potentially harmful drugs on children is just fine with you, though?


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> This is assuming there's a lot more interest in these positions from Americans than there actually is.  We're going on several years of a labor shortage for farm work now.
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-06-01/u-s-farms-need-more-immigrant-workers
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/


There's a shortage because people don't want to work their asses off in farms for a wage that barely sustains life costs. You can solve this by paying people what's fair, not by letting businesses take advantage of more people. In Germany, some refugees are being paid less than one Euro an hour. How can anybody compete with that? https://codastory.com/migration-cri...refugees-pays-one-euro-an-hour-sometimes-less


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## Viri (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> There's a shortage because people don't want to work their asses off in farms for a wage that barely sustains life costs. You can solve this by paying people what's fair, not by letting businesses take advantage of more people. In Germany, some refugees are being paid less than one Euro an hour. How can anybody compete with that? https://codastory.com/migration-cri...refugees-pays-one-euro-an-hour-sometimes-less


Business need their wage slaves, and don't want to raise the wages to hire people in their own country, lol.


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> There's a shortage because people don't want to work their asses off in farms for a wage that barely sustains life costs. You can solve this by paying people what's fair, not by letting businesses take advantage of more people. In Germany, some refugees are being paid less than one Euro an hour. How can anybody compete with that? https://codastory.com/migration-cri...refugees-pays-one-euro-an-hour-sometimes-less


Minimum wage doesn't sustain life costs, but there are still plenty of people willing to take minimum wage jobs.  It's as you said: farm work is hard labor, it's not going to be appealing to most Americans who can do a lot less strenuous work for the same amount of pay.  Deporting people doesn't do anything to fix the massive wage disparity in the US.


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Minimum wage doesn't sustain life costs, but there are still plenty of people willing to take minimum wage jobs.  It's as you said: farm work is hard labor, it's not going to be appealing to most Americans who can do a lot less strenuous work for the same amount of pay.


It will be appealing to enough people when they start giving them a fair wage. With this logic, no one should be working in oil platforms or in Antarctica. But they do, because the pay is good enough and there is no shortage of any kind.



Xzi said:


> You obviously didn't read the links I posted in that same reply, which document a lot more cases of abuse, both sexual and non-sexual.  I guess everything else including forcing potentially harmful drugs on children is just fine with you, though?


All I read were immigration protesters accusing them of sexual abuse. Where's the documentation?

Also, can you tell me why it's fine for people to say that you shouldn't go to certain parts of the country because of the high criminality rate (and to some extent teasing victims of murders for going there in the first place) while it's absolutely not ok for people to say that you shouldn't cross the border illegally because a lot of criminals do it and if you do it as well you will be treated like a criminal? And children won't be excluded because said criminals exploit them to smuggle stuff?


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## invaderyoyo (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> I'm going to write something that not many people might agree with, so let me clarify that I don't mind any race or any gender. I also believe in human rights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Two wrongs don't make a right. You're basically saying these people had it coming and they deserved to be violated. Ridiculous.


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> It will be appealing to enough people when they start giving them a fair wage. With this logic, no one should be working in oil platforms or in Antarctica. But they do, because the pay is good enough and there is no shortage of any kind.


Risk of death or serious injury is a lot higher on an oil platform, of course the pay needs to be quite high to attract workers.  The margins are obviously very different in farming, there's only so much they can pay someone picking fruit.  Odds are that automation takes over more and more in that industry if the worker shortage continues.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> All I read were immigration protesters accusing them of sexual abuse. Where's the documentation?


What documentation?  ICE destroys evidence in these cases as best they can, as I already pointed out.  It's their word against the detainees, and given their track record it's probably not the best idea to take the word of ICE at face value.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Also, can you tell me why it's fine for people to say that you shouldn't go to certain parts of the country because of the high criminality rate (and to some extent teasing victims of murders for going there in the first place) while it's absolutely not ok for people to say that you shouldn't cross the border illegally because a lot of criminals do it and if you do it as well you will be treated like a criminal? And children won't be excluded because said criminals exploit them to smuggle stuff?


Not sure how this is relevant.  People who choose to go to dangerous areas of the country and then get murdered don't then have their children detained afterward.  Even the murderer doesn't have his kids detained, because that wouldn't make any goddamn sense.  Exact same deal with immigrating illegally, there's no reason for punishing children for the crimes of their parents.


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Risk of death or serious injury is a lot higher on an oil platform


Antarctica isn't dangerous. Also, 27 people out of 100,000 die on oil platform on average. On farms, it's almost 25. That's not a big enough number to scare people away, don't you think?



Xzi said:


> What documentation?  ICE destroys evidence in these cases as best they can, as I already pointed out.  It's their word against the detainees, and given their track record it's probably not the best idea to take the word of ICE at face value.


Yeah, let me just think whom should I trust between their word or the word of people that have no reason not to lie to get illegally across the border. Let me also think who has the biggest history of being an actual criminal between the two. Hmmm....



Xzi said:


> Not sure how this is relevant.  People who choose to go to dangerous areas of the country and then get murdered don't then have their children detained afterward.  Even the murderer doesn't have his kids detained, because that wouldn't make any goddamn sense.  Exact same deal with immigrating illegally, there's no reason for punishing children for the crimes of their parents.


If you go to those dangerous areas with your kids they maybe won't get detained, because they will be murdered as well. Do you see the point now?





invaderyoyo said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right. You're basically saying these people had it coming and they deserved to be violated. Ridiculous.


Not what I wrote, but ok.


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> If you go to those dangerous areas with your kids they maybe won't get detained, because they will be murdered as well. Do you see the point now?


Yeah, I think I do see the point.  The US is becoming shittier for the working class and more dangerous by the minute, best to stay away altogether if possible, because the police are no better than murderers and rapists here apparently.  Only if you're the wrong skin color, though.  Illegal Russians overstaying their visas are welcome, of course.  Gotta respect the new regime, amirite?


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Yeah, I think I do see the point.  The US is becoming shittier for the working class and more dangerous by the minute, best to stay away altogether if possible, because the police are no better than murderers and rapists here apparently.  Only if you're the wrong skin color, though.  Illegal Russians overstaying their visas are welcome, of course.  Gotta respect the new regime, amirite?


No need to manipulate what I wrote if you can't come up with anything to counter that lol


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## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> No need to manipulate what I wrote if you can't come up with anything to counter that lol


Nah, you said there are lots of dangerous areas in the US where both you and your children could get murdered.  I don't contest that, we're a violent culture.  So if you're trying to escape that type of thing in Mexico, we're really not a good option.  Then again, net immigration from Mexico has been really low (or zero) ever since the economic crash and recession in '08, so we haven't been a super attractive option for some time now.


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## DRAGONBALLVINTAGE (Aug 1, 2018)

Holy Shit! 
Someone needs to be punished for that!


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## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Nah, you said there are lots of dangerous areas in the US where both you and your children could get murdered.  I don't contest that, we're a violent culture.  So if you're trying to escape that type of thing in Mexico, we're really not a good option.  Then again, net immigration from Mexico has been really low (or zero) ever since the economic crash and recession in '08, so we haven't been a super attractive option for some time now.


All I'm saying is that a lot of people who are condemning ICE are often the ones victim-blaming the victim of murders in cities with high criminality. It's also a lot more likely for an illegal immigrant to be involved in criminal activity, so there's no need to add more fuel to the fire for now. If these monsters (because yes, that's what cartels and other southern american criminals are) can be stopped by making an example out of these illegals detained by crossing the borders, then be it. It's not like we're killing or torturing them anyway.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DRAGONBALLVINTAGE said:


> Holy Shit!
> Someone needs to be punished for that!


Honestly, ICE should be abolished, or at the very least have their objectives shifted.  It's not really an extreme position considering ICE have only been around since GWB, and they were mostly focused on fighting drug cartels South of the border.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> All I'm saying is that a lot of people who are condemning ICE are often the ones victim-blaming the victim of murders in cities with high criminality. It's also a lot more likely for an illegal immigrant to be involved in criminal activity, so there's no need to add more fuel to the fire for now. If these monsters (because yes, that's what cartels and other southern american criminals are) can be stopped by making an example out of these illegals detained by crossing the borders, then be it. It's not like we're killing or torturing them anyway.


You're equating children with cartel members.  Stahp.


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> You're equating children with cartel members.  Stahp.


I'm equating children to pawns used by cartel members. Which is reality.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> I'm equating children to pawns used by cartel members. Which is reality.


In other words, you're suggesting anyone crossing the border is automatically guilty of other crimes as well.  Guilty until proven innocent.


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> In other words, you're suggesting anyone crossing the border is automatically guilty of other crimes as well.  Guilty until proven innocent.





DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> You need to understand that yes, not all illegals are criminal. But this exploit is allowing many criminals to swarm in, using a method that's still illegal. Look at what's happening in Europe with fights and murder inside refugee shelters getting less rare by the day. Borders exist to keep the scum out. You aren't scum? Then you have no reason not to enter the state legally.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> snip


That's a silly statement.  A lot like saying, "nothing to hide?  Then you should be fine with the government and your employer having 24/7 video surveillance of everything you do."

There's an obvious racial bias component to your statements, even if you won't acknowledge it.  Asylum seekers from countries other than Mexico are not assumed to be criminals from the get-go.  Of course, this isn't an idea that came from you originally, Trump has been suggesting all Mexican immigrants are criminals from the very launch of his campaign.


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> That's a silly statement.  A lot like saying, "nothing to hide?  Then you should be fine with the government and your employer having 24/7 video surveillance of everything you do."


Comparing the authorities not wanting unregistered illegal immigrants to cross the border with the government spying you 24/7. Holy hyperbole batman.


Xzi said:


> There's an obvious racial bias component to your statements, even if you won't acknowledge it.





DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> I'm going to write something that not many people might agree with, so let me clarify that I don't mind any race or any gender. I also believe in human rights.





DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Again, I don't mind any race or gender and this post would've been the same if canadian authorities were doing the same with illegals from the US.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Comparing the authorities not wanting unregistered illegal immigrants to cross the border with the government spying you 24/7. Holy hyperbole batman.


Comparing asylum seekers with cartel members.  Holy hyperbole batman.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> I'm going to write something that not many people might agree with, so let me clarify that I don't mind any race or any gender. I also believe in human rights.


You "don't mind" any race/gender doesn't mean you don't have a preference, especially when it comes to the law.  Obviously you don't believe in human rights if you're presuming guilt of crimes without evidence, not to mention being okay with detention centers for children unconnected to any crimes whatsoever.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Again, I don't mind any race or gender and this post would've been the same if canadian authorities were doing the same with illegals from the US.


If Canada ever gets a leader as extreme/stupid as Trump, one willing to build child prisons, there really is no hope for this continent whatsoever.


----------



## Thunder Hawk (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Comparing asylum seekers with cartel members.  Holy hyperbole batman.
> 
> 
> You "don't mind" any race/gender doesn't mean you don't have a preference, especially when it comes to the law.  Obviously you don't believe in human rights if you're presuming guilt of crimes without evidence, not to mention being okay with detention centers for children unconnected to any crimes whatsoever.
> ...


Aren't you also presuming guilt of crimes without evidence? Don't you also have a preference?


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Comparing asylum seekers with cartel members.  Holy hyperbole batman.





DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> I'm equating children to pawns used by cartel members. Which is reality.





Xzi said:


> You "don't mind" any race/gender doesn't mean you don't have a preference, especially when it comes to the law.  Obviously you don't believe in human rights if you're presuming guilt of crimes without evidence, not to mention being okay with detention centers for children unconnected to any crimes whatsoever.


A criminal is a criminal, no matter the race and/or gender. Detaining someone doesn't go against their human rights, especially if they just broke in a place they aren't welcome without invite or permission.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

Thunder Hawk said:


> Aren't you also presuming guilt of crimes without evidence? Don't you also have a preference?


There are differences when we're talking about a power structure/agency that has the ability to keep damning evidence from the public.  So I am presuming some things based on their past record.  I hold judgment on guilt until an investigation can be conducted, but under this corrupt administration, that's a pipe dream.

My preference is that the law be applied evenly, and not based on race and wealth as it so obviously is in this country.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> A criminal is a criminal, no matter the race and/or gender. Detaining someone doesn't go against their human rights, especially if they just broke in a place they aren't welcome without invite or permission.


Mmmkay, so you're just ignoring the fact that the children are unconnected to any crimes.  And still pretending that _every single one_ of their parents is a criminal/cartel member.  We're hitting the racial bias wall pretty hard here.


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Mmmkay, so you're just ignoring the fact that the children are unconnected to any crimes.  And still pretending that _every single one_ of their parents is a criminal/cartel member.  We're hitting the racial bias wall pretty hard here.


Except for the fact that they're trespassing. And race has nothing to do with it. Any illegal immigrant caught trespassing should have the same treatment.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Except for the fact that they're trespassing. And race has nothing to do with it. Any illegal immigrant caught trespassing should have the same treatment.


Trespassing carries little more than a fine and a short probation period in most states.  At most, three years prison for the person who _committed the crime._  Still no precedent there for locking up the criminal's children.


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Trespassing carries little more than a fine and a short probation period in most states.  At most, three years prison for the person who _committed the crime._  Still no precedent there for locking up the criminal's children.


And, in some states, the owner of the place you're trespassing into is authorized to shoot you. All they do with illegal immigrants is detaining them. Monsters!


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> And, in some states, the owner of the place you're trespassing into is authorized to shoot you. All they do with illegal immigrants is detaining them. Monsters!


Seriously, justify it all you want, child prisons are not a thing that first world countries do.  The fact that anyone is willing to defend shit like this just highlights the rapid rate at which this country is declining.


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Seriously, justify it all you want, child prisons are not a thing that first world countries do.  The fact that anyone is willing to defend shit like this just highlights the rapid rate at which this country is declining.


What are they supposed to do, let them get into the country? Give them to US foster homes? On what grounds? They aren't their children. Kick them back outside the border while the parents are detained? That's even more cruel than simply detaining them. Or actually using them as sympathy cards to get to the border and hope to be left alone because you're carrying one.


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> In other words, you're suggesting anyone crossing the border is automatically guilty of other crimes as well.  Guilty until proven innocent.


That does seem to be the the default position for anybody without a blue passport crossing the US border, and even those with such a thing still lose quite a few rights. I take great issue with a lot of things there but consistency would not be one of them.



Xzi said:


> Families were not separated under Obama.


This separation of families bit comes up a lot and I am not entirely sure why it is so contentious as a concept. The implementation and efforts to reunify (assuming no custodial sentence is being given to the adults involved) may need improvements but the idea of it all seems fairly sound to me if "catch and detain" is to be part of your border control policy.


----------



## Clydefrosch (Aug 1, 2018)

Viri said:


> Like wise, your country would have been a giant smoldering crater in the 40's.


and deservingly so.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 1, 2018)

JiveTheTurkey said:


> Why is it now that people are outraged over these appalling situations when a Republican is in office? Let alone blame him for doing what the guy before him was doing.


Its a political bias. Nothing more... Doesn't take away from the fact the issue is still going on, though.

What I'd like to know is why we're detaining children, yet sexual predators and violent illegals are allowed to roam.


----------



## ChaosEternal (Aug 1, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> Sorry I have to be so blunt, but pedos aren't humans. They're animals.


Hey now, don't conflate pedophiles and child molesters. That'd be like saying "Sorry I have to be so blunt, but gays aren't humans. They're animals." when you really meant "gay rapists." Current data suggests that the majority of child molesters aren't pedophiles (although I would imagine that the incidence rate among pedophiles is higher than the general population), so your anger is at least partially misplaced. Not to mention that's a cop out. They're just as human as the rest of us whether you like it or not. That humans can be that awful is just something that we all have to live with.


----------



## JiveTheTurkey (Aug 1, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Its a political bias. Nothing more... Doesn't take away from the fact the issue is still going on, though.
> 
> What I'd like to know is why we're detaining children, yet sexual predators and violent illegals are allowed to roam.


I think because it's very easy to exploit and bring in child sex trafficking.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> If you own a company, you can hire these people for less than any other US resident would accept. This lets businesses be scumbags and increase the unemployment for non-skilled labor, since everyone would hire illegal immigrants. And no, just because someone didn't go to college or isn't particularly skilled doesn't mean that they deserve to live on the streets.


Help me understand why opportunistic businesses exploiting undocumented workers for cheap labor that would otherwise be illegal is an issue of immigrants stealing jobs rather than one of businesses being scummy and operating under inadequate oversight

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Comparing the authorities not wanting unregistered illegal immigrants to cross the border with the government spying you 24/7. Holy hyperbole batman.


Except... The authorities are literally there to intercept anyone crossing the border and give them assistance. They're not there strictly to detain them, as asylum seeking isn't a crime and a first time undocumented border crossing is only a misdemeanor (as @Xzi was suggesting, not unlike jaywalking, loitering, or driving with a taillight out). Immigration courts are there to assess whether or not the individual has committed asylum fraud (i.e. brought children that aren't theirs, crossed the border to distribute drugs, etc.), but up until the point that they have been found guilty of asylum fraud (and actually there's a lot of shady shit the courts do to get them to plead guilty now that family separation is a policy, but I'm not going to get into that now), they HAVE NOT committed a crime

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> What are they supposed to do, let them get into the country?


Well... Yes, actually, that is, assuming they haven't been found guilty of fraud then that's exactly what we're supposed to do. That's literally how our asylum process works


> Give them to US foster homes? On what grounds? They aren't their children.


Best case that's correct, but worst case that's dangerously presumptuous. And, actually, that's already what's happening. If you want I can link you to a few articles of kids that have been tossed into the foster system and adopted! even though the parents are alive and may or may not have been deported, but were given no appeal 





> Kick them back outside the border while the parents are detained? That's even more cruel than simply detaining them.


Or, and hear me out, detain the family together as a unit. You seem to have just glossed right over that option as though it was somehow absurd


> Or actually using them as sympathy cards to get to the border and hope to be left alone because you're carrying one.


That's... Not how our system works at all. You don't get "sympathy points" for having a child with you, EVERYONE who has crossed gets stopped and asked of their intent then detained, and depending on what their answer was and the verdict of their immigration court hearing either allowed asylum or deported back to their home country


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Help me understand why opportunistic businesses exploiting undocumented workers for cheap labor that would otherwise be illegal is an issue of immigrants stealing jobs rather than one of businesses being scummy and operating under inadequate oversight


That's what's happening in Europe and no one is stopping them. Why will the US be different about this? If we do nothing, half the population of unskilled US citizens will be jobless. They can't just step up their education, especially if they just aren't cut to it. I refuse to let someone living legally here starve just because minimum wage became "too expensive" for businesses.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Except... The authorities are literally there to intercept anyone crossing the border and give them assistance. They're not there strictly to detain them, as asylum seeking isn't a crime and a first time undocumented border crossing is only a misdemeanor (as @Xzi was suggesting, not unlike jaywalking, loitering, or driving with a taillight out). Immigration courts are there to assess whether or not the individual has committed asylum fraud (i.e. brought children that aren't theirs, crossed the border to distribute drugs, etc.), but up until the point that they have been found guilty of asylum fraud (and actually there's a lot of shady shit the courts do to get them to plead guilty now that family separation is a policy, but I'm not going to get into that now), they HAVE NOT committed a crime


Again, they came here knowing very well what to expect. Unless you're pro-human trafficking.


TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well... Yes, actually, that is, assuming they haven't been found guilty of fraud then that's exactly what we're supposed to do. That's literally how our asylum process works


Had it not been abused countless times, we wouldn't be having this problem. They should be mad at the people who wrecked the house, not the owner that got finally tired of it.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Best case that's correct, but worst case that's dangerously presumptuous. And, actually, that's already what's happening. If you want I can link you to a few articles of kids that have been tossed into the foster system and adopted! even though the parents are alive and may or may not have been deported, but were given no appeal
> Or, and hear me out, detain the family together as a unit. You seem to have just glossed right over that option as though it was somehow absurd


Let's see these links.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> The implementation and efforts to reunify (assuming no custodial sentence is being given to the adults involved) may need improvements


"Improvements" would suggest they had any kind of plan to reunite these families before they separated them to begin with, which they didn't.  If this hadn't been widely reported on and a judge hadn't ordered reunification, I seriously doubt they ever would've made any effort on it whatsoever.  Even despite the minimal effort they are putting in, they've missed two deadlines for reunification already.  Not to mention they're constantly bogging down the system by adding more children to these detention facilities.



Memoir said:


> Its a political bias. Nothing more... Doesn't take away from the fact the issue is still going on, though.


I'd criticize the shit out of Obama for building child detention centers in the blistering heat of South Texas, but that simply didn't happen.  No president in my lifetime other than Trump would consider this moral, ethical, or legal.  Even worse is that Trump's corporate cronies get paid for everything they put these kids through.  Good ol' capitalism, as long as someone's getting paid it doesn't matter how many lives we ruin.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/20...tion-is-big-money-for-contractors-nonprofits/


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> "Improvements" would suggest they had any kind of plan to reunite these families before they separated them to begin with, which they didn't.  If this hadn't been widely reported on and a judge hadn't ordered reunification, I seriously doubt they ever would've made any effort on it whatsoever.  Even despite the minimal effort they are putting in, they've missed two deadlines for reunification already.  Not to mention they're constantly bogging down the system by adding more children to these detention facilities.
> 
> 
> I'd criticize the shit out of Obama for building child detention centers in the blistering heat of South Texas, but that simply didn't happen.  No president in my lifetime other than Trump would consider this moral, ethical, or legal.  Even worse is that Trump's corporate cronies get paid for everything they put these kids through.  Good ol' capitalism, as long as someone's getting paid it doesn't matter how many lives we ruin.
> ...


Do you consider moral attempting to cross the border with your kids knowing well what will happen if you do?


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Do you consider moral attempting to cross the border with your kids knowing well what will happen if you do?


We have nothing to discuss as long as you continue to assume every asylum seeker is a criminal.  It's an entirely legal process that the Trump administration wants to illegally ignore because of skin color.  Hell, they even deport naturalized citizens, which is 100% indefensible, and an action reserved almost exclusively as a consequence for war crimes.



> Indeed, the creation of the task force itself is undoing the naturalization of the more than twenty million naturalized citizens in the American population by taking away their assumption of permanence. All of them—all of us—are second-class citizens now. The President calls immigrants “animals.” The Attorney General presumes that everyone crossing the border—or at least the southern border—is a criminal.



https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-...ns-no-longer-have-an-assumption-of-permanence

Super relevant quote to this whole situation, with Mexicans being the new boogeyman:



> President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."



EDIT: (Aug 1) There are now reports of a child dying in an ICE detention center after negligent care.  ICE is claiming it didn't happen, so I'm waiting for further confirmation before posting an article on it.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> That's what's happening in Europe and no one is stopping them. Why will the US be different about this? If we do nothing, half the population of unskilled US citizens will be jobless. They can't just step up their education, especially if they just aren't cut to it. I refuse to let someone living legally here starve just because minimum wage became "too expensive" for businesses.


... what? Minimum wage should be considered a business expense, if a business can't pay that much then they deserve to die out. Just because they take advantage of people living here without citizenship papers doesn't make that particular issue any less their fault



> Again, they came here knowing very well what to expect. Unless you're pro-human trafficking.


Yeah, they come here expecting this, not the "zero-tolerance policy" that was enacted recently



> Had it not been abused countless times, we wouldn't be having this problem. They should be mad at the people who wrecked the house, not the owner that got finally tired of it.


What? Really? Are you really going to blame bad actors for forcing the hand of a federal agency that should be expected to be able to separate threats from non-threats? That's... shallow, to say the least, an excuse to say a bit more.



> Let's see these links.


Yeah sure thing buddy
https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...nistration-after-family-separation/734874002/
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/01/separated-children-adoption-immigration/
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/i...rant-family-separations-are-permanent-n884391
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/i...grant-children-they-are-coming-crying-n884791
https://consideringadoption.com/news/what-happens-to-migrant-children-separated-from-their-parents
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ion-court-parents-separated-children-families


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> We have nothing to discuss as long as you continue to assume every asylum seeker is a criminal.  It's an entirely legal process that the Trump administration wants to illegally ignore because of skin color.  Hell, they even deport naturalized citizens, which is 100% indefensible, and an action reserved almost exclusively as a consequence for war crimes.


Any illegal immigrant is likely to turn into a criminal. Race and gender can be factors, but just any person can turn into a danger for society. You have people who live in different cultures hoping to get better lives somewhere else where fresh college degree students queue up for the privilege to work for Burger King. Of course a lot of them will turn into illegal activities to survive. Some will even want more and join drug and human trafficking. That's how it works and what's happening in Europe is a prime example of it.
[/QUOTE]


TotalInsanity4 said:


> ... what? Minimum wage should be considered a business expense, if a business can't pay that much then they deserve to die out. Just because they take advantage of people living here without citizenship papers doesn't make that particular issue any less their fault


You'll see a law forbidding black people to breed rather than let businesses have less shady business practice. That's how fucked the business world in the US is right now.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Yeah, they come here expecting this, not the "zero-tolerance policy" that was enacted recently





DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Had it not been abused countless times, we wouldn't be having this problem. They should be mad at the people who wrecked the house, not the owner that got finally tired of it.





TotalInsanity4 said:


> What? Really? Are you really going to blame bad actors for forcing the hand of a federal agency that should be expected to be able to separate threats from non-threats? That's... shallow, to say the least, an excuse to say a bit more.


How can you separate a threat from a non-threat if the country of origin often doesn't want to cooperate? The issue is getting too big. It sucks for the few people who would actually be good US citizens but they have to thank the countless criminals that crossed the border and are responsible for a lot of murders.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Yeah sure thing buddy
> https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...nistration-after-family-separation/734874002/
> https://theintercept.com/2018/07/01/separated-children-adoption-immigration/
> https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/i...rant-family-separations-are-permanent-n884391
> ...


From the very first link you posted:


> Reports surfaced of mothers who were told that their children would be adopted as an incentive to “behave.”


So yeah, they knew about this before getting there. Keep in mind that the zero-tolerance policy happened 4 months ago, not one hour ago.


And, just to clarify once again, since I've seen some accusations I don't like: I have nothing against any race or gender. Being against any person trespassing the border illegally is not "racism".


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Any illegal immigrant is likely to turn into a criminal.


The vast majority of illegal immigrants come here to work.  There'd be no point in coming here just to turn around and get arrested/deported for criminal activity immediately.  The statistics are definitely against you on this one.



DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Race and gender can be factors, but just any person can turn into a danger for society.


So let's just start assuming people are guilty of crimes that haven't happened and go full Minority Report?  Or should we just presume innocent until found guilty for _everyone_, the way the law was established in the first place?


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The vast majority of illegal immigrants come here to work.  There'd be no point in coming here just to turn around and get arrested/deported for criminal activity immediately.  The statistics are definitely against you on this one.


They come here to work at first. What do you do after you've been turned down everywhere? What if you have an addiction already? What if you get caught by a criminal organization promising you easy money?


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> They come here to work at first. What do you do after you've been turned down everywhere? What if you have an addiction already? What if you get caught by a criminal organization promising you easy money?


"What ifs" are irrelevant to law enforcement.  You need proof of a crime before accusing someone.  Like I said, the only other option is to devolve into a police state where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent.

You've hit on a big problem with America, though: poverty and wage disparity driving crime rates.  In one of the richest nations on Earth, we can't even agree that the people who need help, regardless of race, should receive it.  Instead it's just as the LBJ quote stated: we're emptying our pockets to give out a bunch of corporate welfare to people that both don't need it and didn't earn it.  Immigration is just a distraction while the real criminals fleece this country for all it's worth.  Deporting people isn't going to increase wages or help get anyone out of poverty.


----------



## Song of storms (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> "What ifs" are irrelevant to law enforcement.  You need proof of a crime before accusing someone.  Like I said, the only other option is to devolve into a police state where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> You've hit on a big problem with America, though: poverty and wage disparity driving crime rates.  In one of the richest nations on Earth, we can't even agree that the people who need help, regardless of race, should receive it.  Instead it's just as the LBJ quote stated: we're emptying our pockets to give out a bunch of corporate welfare to people that both don't need it and didn't earn it.  Immigration is just a distraction while the real criminals fleece this country for all it's worth.  Deporting people isn't going to increase wages or help get anyone out of poverty.


We need to help poor people regardless of race and gender, but the US citizens have the priority. You're going to make preferences whenever you need to help more than one person and that's perfeclty normal. My preference is to help people who are legally here first. Is it that bad?


----------



## Xzi (Aug 1, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> We need to help poor people regardless of race and gender, but the US citizens have the priority. You're going to make preferences whenever you need to help more than one person and that's perfeclty normal. My preference is to help people who are legally here first. Is it that bad?


You're not listening.  We're not helping anyone in poverty, if anything we've been slowly eliminating social safety nets under Trump, and that's a Republican tradition dating all the way back to Reagan closing down all mental health treatment centers.  At the same time, this country *has* the resources to instantly fix the problem for our own people and anyone living here under asylum/naturalized citizenship, we just choose to spend that money on tax breaks for corporations instead of doing anything to lift up the middle/lower classes.  There are way more empty houses across America than there are homeless people.  It's just a choice we make to follow the hypocritical rule set of this pyramid scheme-style capitalism.  An empathy gap and a short-sightedness.  The next economic crash isn't far off, which is why the rich are vacuuming up so much money while they can, so that they feel insulated when it does happen.  Good luck to everybody below a certain level of job security/income at that point.


----------



## SG854 (Aug 1, 2018)

Xzi said:


> "What ifs" are irrelevant to law enforcement.  You need proof of a crime before accusing someone.  Like I said, the only other option is to devolve into a police state where everyone is presumed guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> You've hit on a big problem with America, though: poverty and wage disparity driving crime rates.  In one of the richest nations on Earth, we can't even agree that the people who need help, regardless of race, should receive it.  Instead it's just as the LBJ quote stated: we're emptying our pockets to give out a bunch of corporate welfare to people that both don't need it and didn't earn it.  Immigration is just a distraction while the real criminals fleece this country for all it's worth.  Deporting people isn't going to increase wages or help get anyone out of poverty.


Wage Disparity does cause crime. But Poverty doesn't cause crime. Relative Poverty causes crime. A big notable difference.
When everyone is poor crime doesn't go up. It only goes up when there's poor people along with rich people. This is due to hierarchical tendencies in humans.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Wage Disparity does cause crime. But Poverty doesn't cause crime. Relative Poverty causes crime. A big notable difference.
> When everyone is poor crime doesn't go up. It only goes up when there's poor people along with rich people. This is due to hierarchical tendencies in humans.


Not even rich people, I'd argue if a poverty district is anywhere near even a lower-middle class district there will be people desperate enough to try to steal things they consider necessary to survive

You're also, I think, ignoring gang activity that thrive by offering "protection" to susceptible youth, although one could argue that the police/other gangs are the higher class


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## dAVID_ (Aug 2, 2018)

Meanwhile this happens all the time in prisons (not just in the US) and yet nobody cares, it's when it affects the children that the media pays attention.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

dAVID_ said:


> Meanwhile this happens all the time in prisons (not just in the US) and yet nobody cares, it's when it affects the children that the media pays attention.


I know that a lot of people on the left side of the spectrum at least have been causing a ruckus about treatment of prisoners for ages now, so that's really not true...


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

Xzi said:


> You're not listening.  We're not helping anyone in poverty, if anything we've been slowly eliminating social safety nets under Trump, and that's a Republican tradition dating all the way back to Reagan closing down all mental health treatment centers.  At the same time, this country *has* the resources to instantly fix the problem for our own people and anyone living here under asylum/naturalized citizenship, we just choose to spend that money on tax breaks for corporations instead of doing anything to lift up the middle/lower classes.  There are way more empty houses across America than there are homeless people.  It's just a choice we make to follow the hypocritical rule set of this pyramid scheme-style capitalism.  An empathy gap and a short-sightedness.  The next economic crash isn't far off, which is why the rich are vacuuming up so much money while they can, so that they feel insulated when it does happen.  Good luck to everybody below a certain level of job security/income at that point.


Oh, so this is what's all about! You just want to go against Trump. Because things like food stamps have solved everything and absolutely not been a burden for the public debt.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> I know that a lot of people on the left side of the spectrum at least have been causing a ruckus about treatment of prisoners for ages now, so that's really not true...


Rape jokes aren't funny unless done to someone in jail. Let that sink in.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Rape jokes aren't funny unless done to someone in jail. Let that sink in.


God, I am... SO convinced that you're part of a Russian troll network or something, just based on the responses you've been giving me so far


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## WeedZ (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Oh, so this is what's all about! You just want to go against Trump. Because things like food stamps have solved everything and absolutely not been a burden for the public debt.


It kills me when people bitch about welfare. Everyone hates a single mother that gets like 400$ a month to feed her children but no one bats an eye at people like Jeff bezos and bill gates that could give something like 7 thousand families 100,000$ dollars a year and never notice the money was missing. Who could never spend their money in 200 lifetimes. You guys bitch about the poor, I think the rich are disgusting.


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> God, I am... SO convinced that you're part of a Russian troll network or something, just based on the responses you've been giving me so far


That's some broad accusation for having told an objective truth, don't you think?
People have been protesting dark humor jokes all the time. Some rightfully so, some maybe went too far, but rape jokes in prison are still everywhere.



WeedZ said:


> It kills me when people bitch about welfare. Everyone hates a single mother that gets like 400$ a month to feed her children but no one bats an eye at people like Jeff bezos and bill gates that could give something like 7 thousand families 100,000$ dollars a year and never notice the money was missing. Who could never spend their money in 200 lifetimes. You guys bitch about the poor, I think the rich are disgusting.


I'm not against food stamps. I just think that it could have handed better, with less waste. Less waste = more people to help. And calling Bill Gates out when he's done so much to improve life to people worldwide isn't something nice.


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## Xzi (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Oh, so this is what's all about! You just want to go against Trump. Because things like food stamps have solved everything and absolutely not been a burden for the public debt.


Of course you'd equate any form of public assistance with food stamps.  And no, they absolutely are not nearly as big a drain on the national budget as corporate welfare is.  Like, not even 1/1,000,000th of the drain.

"We can't afford infrastructure revitalization!  Betsy DeVos needs her eleventh 200' yacht!"


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> That's some broad accusation for having told an objective truth, don't you think?
> People have been protesting dark humor jokes all the time. Some rightfully so, some maybe went too far, but rape jokes in prison are still everywhere.


That's great, has almost virtually nothing to do with what was being discussed


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## the_randomizer (Aug 2, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> It kills me when people bitch about welfare. Everyone hates a single mother that gets like 400$ a month to feed her children but no one bats an eye at people like Jeff bezos and bill gates that could give something like 7 thousand families 100,000$ dollars a year and never notice the money was missing. Who could never spend their money in 200 lifetimes. You guys bitch about the poor, I think the rich are disgusting.



What does piss me off about food stamps and welfare is when some greedy twat uses it to buy cigarettes and other drugs. Those are the people that need punishment by removing their benefits.


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Of course you'd equate any form of public assistance with food stamps.  And no, they absolutely are not nearly as big a drain on the national budget as corporate welfare is.  Like, not even 1/1,000,000th of the drain.
> 
> "We can't afford infrastructure revitalization!  Betsy DeVos needs her eleventh 200' yacht!"


In 2002 corporate welfare cost $170 billion to taxpayers. Food stamps alone almost $71. If you can find a more updated version of the price for corporate welfare I found then go for it, but I highly doubt that the government pays 170 quadrillion dollars to bail corporations out.
Also, while there are some scum businesses that take advantage of the system, a lot of others don't. Maybe stop buying stuff from businesses that take advantage of our taxes and you'll see their behavior change. They do this because they know that they get away with it. Not to mention that part of said money is given back with taxes.


TotalInsanity4 said:


> That's great, has almost virtually nothing to do with what was being discussed


"People complain about this but do nothing for people in jail that are treated worse"
"I know some person who doesn't agree so it's not true"
"What you said is so bullshit that we can see how rape in jail is funny and not a taboo subject at all"
"RUSSIAN BOT"

See?


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## osaka35 (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> I'm not against food stamps. I just think that it could have handed better, with less waste. Less waste = more people to help. And calling Bill Gates out when he's done so much to improve life to people worldwide isn't something nice.


Waste usually comes in the form of those trying to ensure only "good" people get it, or only those who have earned it get it (or: arbitrary hoops that fly in the face of research). If you really want to reduce waste, and make social programs work to the benefit of the free market, you should look into Universal Basic Income.  Kurzgesagt has a good video on the matter 



Spoiler


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## Xzi (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> In 2002 corporate welfare cost $170 billion to taxpayers. Food stamps alone almost $71. If you can find a more updated version of the price for corporate welfare I found then go for it, but I highly doubt that the government pays 170 quadrillion dollars to bail corporations out.
> Also, while there are some scum businesses that take advantage of the system, a lot of others don't. Maybe stop buying stuff from businesses that take advantage of our taxes and you'll see their behavior change. They do this because they know that they get away with it. Not to mention that part of said money is given back with taxes.


Corporations have armies of lawyers and lobbyists that negotiate their tax rate to near zero.  For Trump's corporate tax cuts alone we're adding as much as 5.5 trillion to the debt over the next ten years.

http://time.com/4758411/donald-trump-tax-plan-debt-cost/

Now he's considering another $100 billion in unilateral tax cuts for the wealthy, many of whom already benefited from the corporate tax cuts.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/30/us/politics/trump-tax-cuts-rich.html

So adding to your number, $170 billion plus ~$650 billion per year in unneeded tax cuts means corporate welfare is costing us upwards of $800 billion a year in debt.  Yeah, my number was an exaggeration, but _one_ year of corporate welfare is still about _eleven_ years of food stamps.


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## Chary (Aug 2, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> What does piss me off about food stamps and welfare is when some greedy twat uses it to buy cigarettes and other drugs. Those are the people that need punishment by removing their benefits.


Most states have SNAP cards. Unless you have multiple kids and are a single mother, then you can get TANF cash, but it's highly unlikely. You have to be really needy and have kids in your household, and prove you're using the money right. SNAP means you can only buy food, and specific types of food, at that. My dad was on SNAP for a while, and I used to help him budget his food stamp amount. You can't use "food stamps" on prepared meals (aka expensive rotisserie chickens or sushi) or cigs/beer/lotto. They'll deny the entire purchase if you put it in your cart. 

Some cities have fast food that take SNAP, however, which is about as "wasteful" as one can get with those benefits. 

It's piss easy to get SNAP, sure, but that's why they make it so strict to use. You can't transfer your balance, and if you wanted to sell your card for pure cash to buy beer, you'd have to trust someone to go into a store, use your specific card, use your pin, return the card to you, and then pay you cash. And you'll probably get half the amount in cash than the food stamps are worth if you find a patsy to do that for you. 

Plus, if you're under age 60 or don't have kids, you run out of SNAP after 6 months, and you can't really get it easily again. I had to re-file with my dad constantly, and the state of Texas only granted him food stamps because he's a senior citizen.


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

osaka35 said:


> Waste usually comes in the form of those trying to ensure only "good" people get it, or only those who have earned it get it (or: arbitrary hoops that fly in the face of research). If you really want to reduce waste, and make social programs work to the benefit of the free market, you should look into Universal Basic Income.  Kurzgesagt has a good video on the matter
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



The video claims that the stereotype of the lazy poor person is wrong. I agree, but it's missing the point that a lot of people under the line of poverty are so because of mental issues or addictions. You don't solve issues like that by throwing money at them to potentially fund criminal organizations.

Not only that, but who's going to pay for UBI? The rich? Now, why would a person work their ass off to reach a high risk job with a high income only to be cut down enough to let the stress and time not worth it? 


Xzi said:


> Corporations have armies of lawyers and lobbyists that negotiate their tax rate to near zero.  For Trump's corporate tax cuts alone we're adding as much as 5.5 trillion over the next ten years.
> 
> http://time.com/4758411/donald-trump-tax-plan-debt-cost/
> 
> ...


Tax cuts aren't money that were spent though. And the 1% is still paying a lot more taxes than the 99%.


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## Xzi (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Tax cuts aren't money that were spent though. And the 1% is still paying a lot more taxes than the 99%.


Tax cuts add to the national debt all the same, you can't be idiotic and give them out like candy.  That was a big part of the last economic crash, and it'll be a big part of the next one too.


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Tax cuts add to the national debt all the same, you can't be idiotic and give them out like candy.  That was a big part of the last economic crash, and it'll be a big part of the next one too.


Then protest, boycott, get a list of the companies that benefit the most from those tax cuts without giving anything back and call them out. People need to start caring about companies and boycott the ones doing this crap. But don't act like other wastes of money are "less bad" because, as I said, the 1% still pays a lot more taxes than the 99%.


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## the_randomizer (Aug 2, 2018)

Chary said:


> Most states have SNAP cards. Unless you have multiple kids and are a single mother, then you can get TANF cash, but it's highly unlikely. You have to be really needy and have kids in your household, and prove you're using the money right. SNAP means you can only buy food, and specific types of food, at that. My dad was on SNAP for a while, and I used to help him budget his food stamp amount. You can't use "food stamps" on prepared meals (aka expensive rotisserie chickens or sushi) or cigs/beer/lotto. They'll deny the entire purchase if you put it in your cart.
> 
> Some cities have fast food that take SNAP, however, which is about as "wasteful" as one can get with those benefits.
> 
> ...



Oh...didn't know that. Whoops. =/


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> What does piss me off about food stamps and welfare is when some greedy twat uses it to buy cigarettes and other drugs. Those are the people that need punishment by removing their benefits.


You can't do that, and the people who are make up a fraction of the 1.3%* of welfare users (actual statistic) that are commiting welfare fraud by selling their stamps to other people (who presumably also need them if they're buying them) for money to buy those things

Edit: also, as a retail employee I was just recently in a position to see regulations on WIC benefits get stricter; a single mother with two kids came in and made a purchase of ONLY infant food (think pureed baby food, puff "cereal," formula, etc) that until then had all been covered, and her total bill came to $45 and some change. She ran her benefits card and I told her there was still $9.90 left on her bill that needed to be paid, and she looked a little shocked and panicked because she had no way of paying for it otherwise. So I called a manager over and we spent quite literally 10 minutes going through the total trying to figure out what hadn't been covered, and it turned out that she had bought 10 1oz (or something like that) baby food jars that were $0.99 each that her benefits advisor had told her literally a week earlier would be covered by her card. Fortunately it was a happy ending, because she was shopping ahead of time in bulk and didn't need everything immediately, and was super chill the entire time if not nervous, but it left everyone involved scratching their heads as to why her benefits card wouldn't cover that particular brand one week later


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## Xzi (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Then protest, boycott, get a list of the companies that benefit the most from those tax cuts without giving anything back and call them out. People need to start caring about companies and boycott the ones doing this crap. But don't act like other wastes of money are "less bad" because, as I said, the 1% still pays a lot more taxes than the 99%.


It doesn't matter if they pay more, they aren't paying their full share.  At the same time they exploit them for cheap labor, corporations want you to pretend that Mexicans are the cause of all your woes.

If it was a simple matter of picking and choosing which businesses to frequent, the issue would've been solved by now.  The bigger problem is a revolving door of corruption between corporate lobbyists and government officials.  Crony capitalism that just gets perpetuated by people ignorantly voting against their own interests.


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You can't do that, and the people who are make up a *fraction of the 0.01% of welfare users* (actual statistic) that are commiting welfare fraud by selling their stamps to other people (who presumably also need them if they're buying them) for money to buy those things





> Improper welfare payments, including fraud, *are estimated to be 10.1% of all federal welfare payments made* and totaled $71.5 billion in fiscal year 2015.  This estimate is based on reports from the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) _, The General Accounting Office (GAO) [ii], and other federal agencies.   Seven of the Welfare Programs make the OMB list of the top thirteen federal programs estimated to be “high error programs” - programs with improper payments greater than $750 million annually._


http://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-fraud.html
I'd like to see that statistic you mentioned.





Xzi said:


> It doesn't matter if they pay more, they aren't paying their full share.  At the same time they exploit them for cheap labor, corporations want you to pretend that Mexicans are the cause of all your woes.
> 
> If it was a simple matter of picking and choosing which businesses to frequent, the issue would've been solved by now.  The bigger problem is a revolving door of corruption between corporate lobbyists and government officials.  Crony capitalism that just gets perpetuated by people ignorantly voting against their own interests.


The issue with large businesses can't be solved until people start finally supporting local businesses and companies with no shady procedures.


EDIT: I'm going to sleep so sorry if I don't reply immediately after this[/quote]


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## Xzi (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> The issue with large businesses can't be solved until people start finally supporting local businesses and companies with no shady procedures.


The issue can't be solved until laws and regulations stop favoring anti-competitive practices and large corporations buying out all competition.  In other words, never.  We were mega-fucked the second Citizens United passed, and every president since then that has pushed for corporate favoritism over the well-being of American citizens just speeds our demise.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> http://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-fraud.html
> I'd like to see that statistic you mentioned.


You did catch me there, I was going from memory. Last I remembered legitimate users equated to 99.9% (which would mean my figure should have been 0.1%, I added an extra 0 erroneously), but I guess the accurate statistic is 1.3%

Regardless, though, it's DEFINITELY not 10.1%, and I wouldn't exactly trust a website on the matter that's advertising a book on its toolbar and has a dead link where "welfare issues" should be


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## invaderyoyo (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Do you consider moral attempting to cross the border with your kids knowing well what will happen if you do?


It would be immoral NOT to do it for a lot of these people who know what will happen if they don't. Seriously, what do you think these people have to go through to decide that completely uprooting themselves and crossing a desert for the chance to get to a country where they have no legal status is their only option knowing they might get caught and thrown back out?

Do you think they made that decision lightly? Give me a break.


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

invaderyoyo said:


> It would be immoral NOT to do it for a lot of these people who know what will happen if they don't. Seriously, what do you think these people have to go through to decide that completely uprooting themselves and crossing a desert for the chance to get to a country where they have no legal status is their only option knowing they might get caught and thrown back out?
> 
> Do you think they made that decision lightly? Give me a break.


"The only option"? What about all the immigrants who came in the US legally? Are they morons for wanting to follow the rules and not cause any trouble? Is that it?


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> "The only option"? What about all the immigrants who came in the US legally? Are they morons for wanting to follow the rules and not cause any trouble? Is that it?


You're ignoring just how long it takes to just get the paperwork in the first place, as well as the fact that crossing the border and pleading asylum IS a valid legal method of entry, especially if one is fleeing immediate danger


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## Song of storms (Aug 2, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You're ignoring just how long it takes to just get the paperwork in the first place, as well as the fact that crossing the border and pleading asylum IS a valid legal method of entry, especially if one is fleeing immediate danger


You're ignoring how the system has allowed a lot of criminals to enter the country and smuggle drugs and weapons in.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 2, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> You're ignoring how the system has allowed a lot of criminals to enter the country and smuggle drugs and weapons in.


Numbers? Especially since you like asking for them?


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## SG854 (Aug 2, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Not even rich people, I'd argue if a poverty district is anywhere near even a lower-middle class district there will be people desperate enough to try to steal things they consider necessary to survive
> 
> You're also, I think, ignoring gang activity that thrive by offering "protection" to susceptible youth, although one could argue that the police/other gangs are the higher class


Only for Blacks

Breaking down Property Crime and Poverty Rates by Race and City, for Whites it doesn't go up. It's a -0.03 Correlation. For Hispanics it's -0.19, which means the more Hispanics in a City the less crime there is, crime from Hispanics is caused by other reasons other then Poverty. For Blacks its 0.38 so there is some correlation only for Blacks. Poverty doesn't raise crime for everyone else except for Blacks.

1969-2008, Poverty goes down (Due to New Welfare Programs in the 1960's) but Property Crime goes up. It has a negative -0.59 correlation. Which means the reverse is happening for this time period. Crime was lower until the welfare state came in. Pouring more money into the system didn't seem to lower Crime but Raise it. Whether or Not Correlation equals causation, pouring more money seems to do little to lower crime. 

Just Wealth Distribution alone might not be the answer to solve crime. Many poor people win the lottery but end up loosing it all. Poor people are probably poor because they manage their lives horribly. So giving them more money won't fix things if they can't manage it responsibly, are on the lower end of the IQ distribution, and if they lack the Intelligence for foresight and waste it on Drugs, Alcohol, Bars, Strip Clubs, and other unnecessary things.

Crime in Poorer Areas seems to be more of a Morality Issue not a Survival One. 
Especially in America where the Poor are richer then people living in Countries with absolute poverty.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/morality-prevents-crime
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...factor-claims-Cambridge-University-study.html


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## invaderyoyo (Aug 3, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> "The only option"? What about all the immigrants who came in the US legally? Are they morons for wanting to follow the rules and not cause any trouble? Is that it?


It's practically impossible for poor people without relatives in the US. The people doing this are poor. They basically have no other avenue. This picture sums it up nicely.


Spoiler


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## JellyPerson (Aug 3, 2018)

Okay okay okay, where's the psychotropic drugs and why isn't anyone talking about those? Drugs can kill, but sex abuse only scars.


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## Subtle Demise (Aug 3, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> And no, I'd never nominate anyone for the guillotine in this day and age


But why not? If anything that would be far too generous. Imagine being a 6 year old little girl, all you want is to see your mommy and daddy again, watch your favorite TV show or movie, play with your toys, at the very least cuddle your favorite stuffed animal for what little comfort it can give you. Instead you are treated to physical and mental abuse, watching kids getting murdered, teens giving birth to stillborn babies, molestation and other horrors. If reading these stories makes you feel anything than seething rage and empathy for the children and teens who did nothing wrong besides being born into the wrong family. Anyone who lives near these places with any sense of justice would take them over by force with a small army and reunite the kids with their families. The parties guilty of such atrocities that are taken alive should be subject to things that only the most depraved of minds would do to a human being. Things that would get me banned for describing here.

But hey, maybe that's just me imagining my own 6 year old daughter put into this situation. The fact that this happened under the watchful eye of both democrats and republicans is proof that the two party system needs to die a quick but painful death. All those people who always cry, "please think of the children!" Well, now's the time to do something about it.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 3, 2018)

Subtle Demise said:


> But why not? If anything that would be far too generous. Imagine being a 6 year old little girl, all you want is to see your mommy and daddy again, watch your favorite TV show or movie, play with your toys, at the very least cuddle your favorite stuffed animal for what little comfort it can give you. Instead you are treated to physical and mental abuse, watching kids getting murdered, teens giving birth to stillborn babies, molestation and other horrors. If reading these stories makes you feel anything than seething rage and empathy for the children and teens who did nothing wrong besides being born into the wrong family. Anyone who lives near these places with any sense of justice would take them over by force with a small army and reunite the kids with their families. The parties guilty of such atrocities that are taken alive should be subject to things that only the most depraved of minds would do to a human being. Things that would get me banned for describing here.
> 
> But hey, maybe that's just me imagining my own 6 year old daughter put into this situation. The fact that this happened under the watchful eye of both democrats and republicans is proof that the two party system needs to die a quick but painful death. All those people who always cry, "please think of the children!" Well, now's the time to do something about it.


I guess I should clarify: I wouldn't nominate someone solely on indirect involvement. If, however, someone were to explicitly give the order for something like this then yeah, the death penalty is too good even for them


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## Subtle Demise (Aug 3, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I guess I should clarify: I wouldn't nominate someone solely on indirect involvement. If, however, someone were to explicitly give the order for something like this then yeah, the death penalty is too good even for them


Another thing I don't understand is who the hell thought it would be good to separate families? And detaining children, not just teens and pre-teens, but fucking six year olds? The obvious solution is the release of anyone under 18 to a responsible adult.


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## Xzi (Aug 3, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> Okay okay okay, where's the psychotropic drugs and why isn't anyone talking about those? Drugs can kill, but sex abuse only scars.


Yeah that hasn't gotten much discussion yet.  A lot of the drugs were heavy anti-psychotics that could indeed damage a child's brain permanently.  I don't think any of the kids were actually prescribed the drugs they were being given, either.

EDIT: Things are getting worse as the days pass and more information trickles in.  A detention center worker has been charged with sexually molesting eight children, with all of the incidents falling between August 2016 and July 2017.  OP has been updated with the link as well.

https://www.propublica.org/article/...molesting-eight-children-at-immigrant-shelter


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