# Marcan Clarifies



## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Marcan, reknowned Wii and Wii U hacker, has posted logs to clarify many of the rumors going around, and also to give his thoughts on recent developments and 'the scene' in general.  It includes commentary from people such as neimod and tueidj and covers a variety of subjects currently being discussed (with minimal censoring), so it's worth a read for anybody who's curious what's going on.

This post contains a majority of the important viewpoints and statements, _organized by subject matter_.  In order to see the original context and questions, please follow the "Full IRC Log" link at the bottom of this post.




Spoiler: Status of Wii U hacks.



< marcan> 31 trustworthy people have the info from last year. if nobody has released anything yet it's because nobody is motivated/interested enough to do anything with it.
< marcan> I think there's a collective "meh" sentiment about the WiiU. it was fun breaking it but nobody really feels like building an ecosystem out of it
< marcan> and we saw what happens when you just throw your stuff at people and tell them to run with it (see PS3), so that's not going to happen
< marcan> 31 is a lot of people; if nobody feels like it maybe it isn't worth it.
< marcan> (also, there's a very real chance that the wiikey guys are just fishing for info and don't really have a viable product, so releasing now would be a stupid move as far as avoiding helping warez)

<@marcan> heck, other than random twittards, I've heard basically no noise/pestering for us to release stuff
<@marcan> I think there really isn't as much interest as there should be to make this viable/worth it
<@marcan> part of it is that the wiiu indeed isn't selling well, I think
<@marcan> *I should qualify that I value noise from real devs. there's plenty of noise from gbatemp, but we all know they just want warez.





Spoiler: Opinions about dumpers and other devs.



< marcan> delroth: it's getting better because for the past few generations we did all the work for the warezors, so they got lazy and incompetent
< marcan> if we get lazy and unmotivated, they might be too incompetent to break the new ones
< marcan> <insert 'get off my lawn' remark about warezors knowing what they were doing in the 90s>

< marcan> delroth: I bet they spent a week fishing sectors out of RAM like they used to on LG? drives for wii games
< marcan> or something equally retarded 
< marcan> it's too easy when you have full control of the software, and the PC warezors, unlike the console ones, haven't had the opportunity to get lazy





Spoiler: Vague Exploit Info



< marcan> not as awesome as us though, we did have to pull of a pretty epic <censored> attack for the wii u 
< marcan> it's a bit scary how well these things work sometimes

<@marcan> heck, the most interesting bit so far was the compat VI
<@marcan> and we already reverse engineered that 





Spoiler: Wii U Hardware Info



<@marcan> sure, it's a basic PPC, but the multicore stuff is trickier (and not that common in 32-bit ppc)
<@marcan> also, it has bugs.
<@marcan> as in need to patch libpthreads to make it work kind of bugs.
<@marcan> it's kind of sad.
<@marcan> (they'd never pass this stepping off as a general purpose CPU, but I guess it was good enough for a console)

<@marcan> oh, running on one core would be easy (basically wii compat mode), but where's the fun in that
<@marcan> Muzer: fwiw you CAN get three cores in wii mode, with restrictions, with some tricks. but good luck getting libogc ported to multicore  (so there's really no point)

<@marcan> yeah, but someone still needs to do the RE and write some drivers for it.
<@marcan> I don't trust myself to move this forward, and people are disinterested enough that I have my doubts that the whole ecosystem really would prosper

<@delroth> marcan: my take on this is just that the wiiu is not an interesting console.
<@marcan> delroth: yeah. I mean, the controller is cute, but everything else is just bog standard
<@marcan> sure, three cores, woohoo, but we have quad-core ARMs now
<@marcan> also, the SIMD is still made of fail
<@marcan> that's still what I find the saddest about the CPU

<@shuffle2> i think it would be interetsing to know how some other hardware is working (like compat gpu/dsp,bd) but not incredibly interesting to use them, unlike the gamepad
<@marcan> shuffle2: dsp is just the same old dsp with more sram. bd is SATA/AHCI. compat gpu I still think is just a bolted-on GX

<@marcan> and the wiiu GPU is just a stupid outdated radeon
<@marcan> there's really nothing interesting





Spoiler: Thoughts On Other Platforms



< marcan> yeah, at this stage with Steam on Linux and Android, I'm having a hard time seeing that big a future for traditional consoles
< marcan> why buy closed platforms when open ones are cheaper and better
< marcan> m_b_v: that's the point - publishers just need to get their act together and start releasing for android and PC.
<@marcan> I'm too lazy to port Linux to the Espresso when I can be writing karaoke software. or something.

<@marcan> ouya is open IIRC, though I didn't back that project. I find the hardware lacking.

<@delroth> just like xbox360... no "real" homebrew scene because it has nothing interesting
<@marcan> delroth: and PS3, except for SPU stuff under linux (which was popular at one point, but now that a random x86 has more GFLOPS and GPUs whoop its ass, nobody cares any more

<@marcan> the GC was the last console with sensible disc media
<@marcan> they managed to keep loading times sane
<@marcan> heck, the GC was awesome in almost every way
<@marcan> (in its day)
<@marcan> best controllers, best game media storage/performance balance, nice CPU and GPU (for its time)
< inf> i heard development for it was pretty easy too right?
<@marcan> the GC? yeah, compared to the PS2 anyway
<@marcan> the xbox1 was easy too, but that's just because it was a PC running Windows NT

<@tueidj> ninty thought the gc GPU was so nice, they reused it for the wii







Forum Post



Full IRC Log


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## Joe88 (May 6, 2013)

> <@marcan> *I should qualify that I value noise from real devs. there's plenty of noise from gbatemp, but we all know they just want warez.


 
thats right, nothing but pirates here


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## dalc789 (May 6, 2013)

Joe88 said:


> thats right, nothing but pirates here


He knows us so well.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Joe88 said:


> thats right, nothing but pirates here


 
Nothing but dirty pirates...nope....just uh....pirates, yeah, that's the ticket. Announcing a potentially working Wii U hack they won't release even if hell freezes over isn't a douche thing to do, nope, not in the least.



dalc789 said:


> He knows us so well.


Well, of course! Lumping all people together and branding them as pirates due to the actions of a few people is always a good thing to do right? It works for racial profiling, right??


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## rizzod (May 6, 2013)

"oh look at me I have the info and you don't. blah blah blah". god I hate selfish devs.


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## Janthran (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Nothing but dirty pirates...nope....just uh....pirates, yeah, that's the ticket. Announcing a potentially working Wii U hack they won't release even if hell freezes over isn't a douche thing to do, nope, not in the least.


You obviously misunderstand the relationship between hackers and GBAtemp because for the most part people here are just idiot leeches who know nothing of what they're doing.
Me included.


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

rizzod said:


> "oh look at me I have the info and you don't. blah blah blah". god I hate selfish devs.


Pretty sure that he worked hard to get it and if he's unwilling to release it, fearing the spread of warez then hey -- he's entitled to, it's the fruits of his work. Sure, we may not like that, but nothing stops us from trying to get the same info ourselves _(except for the glaring lack of knowledge or experience on the subject )._

In any case, what's depressing in what he says is that nobody seems to be interested in the WiiU, not even for Homebrew purposes, which is weird considering how successful the Wii's Homebrew Scene was.



Janthran said:


> You obviously misunderstand the relationship between hackers and GBAtemp because for the most part people here are just idiot leeches who know nothing of what they're doing.


This is true in 99% of cases. GBATemp started off as a ROM distribution site and despite the fact that that part of the site's history is already in the past, the general mentality of its users is still backup-oriented whether we like it or not.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

...................


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> _*SNIPPITY SNIP SNIP!*_


A whole lot of white hat hackers don't have the _"betterment of the world of Homebrew"_ agenda - they hack for sport and as such, it comes to them naturally that they announce their successes among the crowd which plays the same sport. They didn't exactly log on GBATemp and make a USN thread; they spoke about it among themselves and answered questions.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Crown3DS
Possibility of a product that might come out that might allow you to play 3DS ROMs.
Nothing substantial actually exists.
Pages: 86.


Terraria Trainer
'Homebrew' tool to cheat at a game.
Actual release, download included.
Pages: <1

Yes GBATemp, "we care about more than piracy", right, keep saying that until you believe it!



the_randomizer said:


> ~


You're a prime example of the problem.

Shut.  The Fuck.  Up.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

..............



Rydian said:


> You're a prime example of the problem.
> 
> Shut. The Fuck. Up.


Elaborate, exemplify. Could you be so kind as to tell me what Hector Marcan said is so good about the clarification? Why is this good news to the hacking scene?


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## Ericthegreat (May 6, 2013)

"<@marcan> heck, other than random twittards, I've heard basically no noise/pestering for us to release stuff"

https://twitter.com/fail0verflow

Who could these "twitards" he mentioned be 




Rydian said:


> Yes GBATemp, "we care about more than piracy", right, keep saying that until you believe it!


 
+1


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> ..............


I've given you this kind of talk before, but seeing how quickly you keep on going back to your old ways each time I guess I should try to clarify again.

You are what's known as a 'leech'.  You go around using other people's free work and then bitch for more.  The word 'leech' is used specifically because it has a negative connotation (a reference to a classification of organisms that suck blood while giving nothing back to the host).  You pester devs, constantly bring up old shit, argue with them about things they don't care about, pressure them to do things they don't want to do, and then _if they don't act according to the way you want them to, you go around publicly insulting them_.

Now, you don't need to actually be a homebrew dev to not be considered a leech. You could try looking at user users and see what they do to contribute.  As some examples...

Write up documentation once you learn how to use something so that user users don't stumble the way you did.
Do testing and bug reporting to help the devs improve their work, if they ask for such feedback.
Start a fundraiser to reward a dev for their work and convince them to update something they normally wouldn't want to.
*Or at the very least, you could just pop a "thanks", use their work, and not go around badmouthing them.*

One reason many people here seem to loathe your presence in a thread is that your bad behavior pushes devs away (*cough* retroarch *cough*).  GBATemp doesn't need yet MORE reasons to be looked at as a bundle of leechers.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> I've given you this kind of talk before, but seeing how quickly you keep on going back to your old ways each time I guess I should try to clarify again.
> 
> You are what's known as a 'leech'. You go around using other people's free work and then bitch for more. The word 'leech' is used specifically because it has a negative connotation (a reference to a classification of organisms that suck blood while giving nothing back to the host). You pester devs, constantly bring up old shit, argue with them about things they don't care about, pressure them to do things they don't want to do, and then _if they don't act according to the way you want them to, you go around publicly insulting them_.
> 
> ...


 
Well, at least you're being honest. I'm not going to get upset or dwell on this conversation as that would be counterproductive. What am I going to do? I don't know, but I do admit it, I am a leech and I have a nasty habit of bitching more than a Twilight Mom when they found out that Edward and Bella broke up in real life, but at least you pointed it out. Why should I get upset? I have a lot of things I need to work on, I won't deny it, and this is one of them. I keep telling myself I won't do it, I won't do it, but I regress like douche and start over once again; lather rinse repeat. That right there explains my notoriety.

I admit I was wrong, and the devs do indeed need as much support as possible. Who knows, maybe something good will come of it, but only time will tell.

But it is what it is I guess. If people want to hate and despise me for my social ineptitude, so be it.


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## Sicklyboy (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Crown3DS
> Possibility of a product that might come out that might allow you to play 3DS ROMs.
> Nothing substantial actually exists.
> Pages: 86.
> ...


 
You're also comparing what was potentially the first flashcart for the 3DS, a system that to this day remains unhacked, versus cheats for a computer game.

Let's compare 2014 cars to flat pack furniture from IKEA while we're at it to see if this website really cares more about cars than interior design.


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> You're also comparing what was potentially the first flashcart for the 3DS, a system that to this day remains unhacked, versus cheats for a computer game.
> 
> Let's compare 2014 cars to flat pack furniture from IKEA while we're at it to see if this website really cares more about cars than interior design.


It's hard to find more appropriate examples though - you'd have to find a flashcart that does only homebrew and compare it to a flashcart that does both homebrew and backups.

_OWAIT, iPLA--_ nevermind, iPlayer is _dead.  _


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## Sicklyboy (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> It's hard to find more appropriate examples though - you'd have to find a flashcart that does only homebrew and compare it to a flashcart that does both homebrew and backups.
> 
> _OWAIT, iPLA--_ nevermind, iPlayer is _dead.  _


 

Is it dead because of GBATemp though, or is it possibly the fact that most people who are looking for a flashcart are looking for one with the intent of pirating games on it, not just someone who wants to play music or homebrew only.

If we're gonna throw random threads around, here's 97 pages of people discussing what they've accomplished in gaming - http://gbatemp.net/threads/what-did-you-accomplish-in-gaming-today.332113/

Edit - here we go, 132 pages on a mod for Pokemon, perfectly able to be used on a legal dump of ones own game - http://gbatemp.net/threads/pokémon-blaze-black-pokémon-volt-white.286850/


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Yeah, Foxi nailed it (as usual).  The iPlayer is the homebrew-only flash cart, and it failed so hard that most GBATemp members never even heard of it.

And...
http://gbatemp.net/forums/homebrew-bounty-entries.180/
GBATemp Homebrew Bounty.

GBA Emulator: 94 Pages
PadSend: 2 Pages
World Heroes Supreme Justice Extra: 1 Page
etc.
The only other thing that comes close is DS2x86, _another emulator_.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

I deserved the reprimand, suffice to say


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## Sicklyboy (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yeah, Foxi nailed it (as usual). The iPlayer is the homebrew-only flash cart, and it failed so hard that most GBATemp members never even heard of it.
> 
> And...
> http://gbatemp.net/forums/homebrew-bounty-entries.180/
> ...


 

You can emulate legal dumps last I checked, no?  Emulation does not directly lead to piracy.  I know it's usually the case but it's more than possible to dump and run your own backups only.


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## Geren (May 6, 2013)

So disregarding the offended people of the temp, The WiikeyU is probably a hoax and the Wii U overall is going to fail... badly did I get things right? Because that seems way more important stuff than all the warez talk.


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## Snailface (May 6, 2013)

This is the same reason yifanlu won't release the Vita hack -- no legitimate developer interest. I'm amazed the homebrew scene has come to this. Pretty depressing stuff.


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## Geren (May 6, 2013)

Snailface said:


> This is the same reason yifanlu won't release the Vita hack -- no legitimate developer interest. I'm amazed the homebrew scene has come to this. Pretty depressing stuff.


 
I guess smartphones really are competition to handhelds... marcan mentions that there are already quad core mobile processors, so who knows, with ppsspp for android, and the announcment of dolphin, that market with bigger consumer base looks better for developers to invest their effort and time than a shaky videogame handheld console.


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## Ericthegreat (May 6, 2013)

Geren said:


> So disregarding the offended people of the temp, The WiikeyU is probably a hoax and the Wii U overall is going to fail... badly did I get things right? cause that's seems way more important stuff than all the warez talk.


The wiikey was real, why do you think the wiikey u is fake lol?


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## mysticwaterfall (May 6, 2013)

Copied from the original thread, since I just found this one....

 I think what marcan posted puts everything in new perspective. People tend to do things for the challenge, the excitement, or the enjoyment. It seems like after the challenge wore off the other two weren't there, and the people he shared it with don't think so either. Fascinating read, really, and understandable if not a little sad. Only thing I don't agree with is his logic for thinking Wii U Key is fake (as I sad in that thread, it does nothing but destroy thier credibility), but time will tell on that.

Like Rydian said, you don't have to be a dev to contribute. I make no allusions of adding any value whatsoever to these forums, but I try to help when I can.


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## Nathan Drake (May 6, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> You can emulate legal dumps last I checked, no? Emulation does not directly lead to piracy. I know it's usually the case but it's more than possible to dump and run your own backups only.


So few people bother with dumping their own games though. I can guarantee that at least 98% of the GBAtemp user base that plays dumps of games on at least one console, tablet, smart phone, what have you, pirate their games. Hackers aren't stupid. They know that if they release something that leads to playing back ups, it will be used to play illegal dumps of games. That isn't why they hack, and if they don't want to release their discoveries knowing what would happen with them, it's entirely their choice. Even then, you saw it right there, if a hack is going to be released, they want it out for the creation of homebrew, which seems to be a dying idea with the ease that comes with the creation of smart phone apps anymore for either iOS or Android.

Essentially, your argument isn't an argument. It's a rare exception.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> You can emulate legal dumps last I checked, no?  Emulation does not directly lead to piracy.  I know it's usually the case but it's more than possible to dump and run your own backups only.


Well that gets into the whole homebrew versus retail divide.  Most people don't use emulators to run homebrew for old systems, they use it to run retail games for old systems.  The quality, _depth of content_, and sheer number of entries for retail games is often much higher than for homebrew games on any given system.



Geren said:


> The WiikeyU is probably a hoax


I disagree here, it's announced by the same team that did the GC and Wii modchips so it'd have to be one hell of a setup with a lot of risk for them to fail.  Even if they are just bringing this info to light in the hopes of other info being released, they would still need to take that info and actually develop a hardware product with it, which is not a single-week task.



Snailface said:


> This is the same reason yifanlu won't release the Vita hack -- no legitimate developer interest. I'm amazed the homebrew scene has come to this. Pretty depressing stuff.


I'm not surprised, since there's dev-friendly devices out there now that are as powerful as or more powerful than the closed consoles.  It wasn't like this years ago.



Geren said:


> I guess smartphones really are competition to handhelds... marcan mentions that there are already quad core mobile processors, so who knows, with ppsspp for android, and the announcment of dolphin, that market with bigger consumer base looks better for developers to invest their effort and time than a shaky videogame handheld console.


It's not just smartphones (which are often bogged down by software), my Transformer Prime TF201 is a quad-core ARM with HDMI-out (and bluetooth, and wifi, etc.), and I've had it in my hands for one year already (ordered it last April).


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

mysticwaterfall said:


> Copied from the original thread, since I just found this one....
> 
> I think what marcan posted puts everything in new perspective. People tend to do things for the challenge, the excitement, or the enjoyment. It seems like after the challenge wore off the other two weren't there, and the people he shared it with don't think so either. Fascinating read, really, and understandable if not a little sad. Only thing I don't agree with is his logic for thinking Wii U Key is fake (as I sad in that thread, it does nothing but destroy thier credibility), but time will tell on that.
> 
> Like Rydian said, you don't have to be a dev to contribute. I make no allusions of adding any value whatsoever to these forums, but I try to help when I can.


 
Would contributing in some way eventually help persuade the hackers to feel less animosity towards the Temp...? There's got to be a way to help them. It would be nice to see the Wii U have better ported emulators and a means of homebrew, but unfortunately, most won't use it that way.

Edit: Never mind, found what I was looking for


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## Celice (May 6, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> So few people bother with dumping their own games though. I can guarantee that at least 98% of the GBAtemp user base that plays dumps of games on at least one console, tablet, smart phone, what have you, pirate their games. Hackers aren't stupid. They know that if they release something that leads to playing back ups, it will be used to play illegal dumps of games. That isn't why they hack, and if they don't want to release their discoveries knowing what would happen with them, it's entirely their choice. Even then, you saw it right there, if a hack is going to be released, they want it out for the creation of homebrew, which seems to be a dying idea with the ease that comes with the creation of smart phone apps anymore for either iOS or Android.
> 
> Essentially, your argument isn't an argument. It's a rare exception.


There are worthy reasons to work towards that exception, however. If any of this work could lead to a functioning WiiU emulator, then that would help people like my brother, who are physically handicapped and unable to grasp and correctly move any standard controller, enjoy Nintendo's great games. My brother was born with a terminal disease that weakens and destroys his muscles without ceasing, from his feet and upwards. As he's grown up with Nintendo, enjoying and loving their games, Nintendo consoles have become more and more difficult for him to be able to play. Once the DS hit, Nintendo sealed the casket--my brother could not feasibly hold the console, use a stylus, and press buttons. He couldn't handle how much dexterity the console required. Then the Wii showed up. And the 3DS. And now the WiiU. Quality experiences and games my brother has always loved from Nintendo were to be taken from him, just as his disease had taken his capability to move and live freely, because these systems predicated on having a certain degree of physical functionality beyond his means. 

But with the aid of emulators, we were able to rig a custom device he uses to control his PC to act as a sort of controller, and through some interesting control setups via keyboard emulators (to translate his custom input pad into keyboard controls, to then be recognized in the emulator), we were able to get him to finally experience some Wii and DS games. We are in an incredible minority, I am sure, but a cause like ours isn't an exception worth disregarding.


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## pwsincd (May 6, 2013)

Woulda been cool to play wii games on the pad. 

I think aside from the "twitards" and IRC gatherers , most people were under the assumption that we should leave them to it , like it must be a time consuming thing to dev , lets not pester them for such things , as we understand the work involved (not how to do it). At least that was my assumption , that things were happening but under the radar of most. It nice to hear they aint going to bother , at least it puts an end to the speculation. 

I think given the chance homebrew would flourish . Shame that the likes of the wiikey people are going to profit from this , just hope no one finds out how to scrub wiiu iso's the size might detract some. 

Woulda been cool to play wii games on the pad.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Maybe we should post on the front page that this has not been publicly announced?


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## chartube12 (May 6, 2013)

Geren said:


> I guess smartphones really are competition to handhelds... marcan mentions that there are already quad core mobile processors, so who knows, with ppsspp for android, and the announcement of dolphin, that market with bigger consumer base looks better for developers to invest their effort and time than a shaky video game handheld console.


 
Last October qualcomm and AMD said there should be nothing stopping smart phones from having the graphics power of the xb360/ps3 by the 2Q of 2015. At cheap low production cost too. And smart phones are advancing happening faster than qualcomm's predictions.

Hard to be motivated to hack the wii-u for homebrew when something just as powerfull is so close to being released in portable form.
     IMO the eshop isn't going to be doing so well once these phones come out. Devs are going to go after the bigger audience. Who doesn't have a phone of some type these days? 3rd party devs may even flack to smart phones and tablets instead of Nintendo for non-casual games.
       If the big names in gaming are not excited nor are the homebrewers about the Wii-u, how can Nintendo get even india devs on board?

Overall I'm not really surprised. The Wii-u was an horrible idea in hindsight, based on where the market is going.


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## muskieratboi (May 6, 2013)

You guys wanna know what the real problem is?


We won.



No, seriously. The developers who are building homebrew software and indie games have finally won the fight against the console creators. With official tools, such as the Nintendo Web Framework, Wii_Unity, XBLA/IG,PSN/Mobile and the laxing of initial entry requirements for becoming an official third party developer developer for the Wii U and 3DS, the large amount of developers who WOULD be creating homebrew for the WiiU/3DS, and thus creating actual interest for hack releases are moving on to legitimately develop for these systems. hell, there are devs kickstarting for WiiU games now!


The battle for homebrew is over, and we won.

There's nothing left for the hacking community BUT Backup Launchers and Emulators.

Welcome to the Party.


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

chartube12 said:


> Last October qualcomm and AMD said there should be nothing stopping smart phones from having the graphics power of the xb360/ps3 by the 2Q of 2015. At cheap low production cost too. And smart phones are advancing happening faster than qualcomm's predictions.


So did NVidia. Welp, _good luck with that. _It's not going to happen, I'm afraid. The 360's GPU performs 240 GFLOPS wheras the Tegra 4, currently the strongest GPU in NVidia's mobile arsenal performs 96 of them. If Moore's law is anything to go by _(it is )_, the number of transistors on the die and with it the processing power of CPU's and GPU's should double each two years - we have the year 2013, so by 2015, we should see a Tegra 5 that will perform about 192GFLOPS - close, but not close enough.

Another problem is the energy consumption - a home console is connected to the mains and for all intents and purposes, it can eat more WATT's of power than a binge eater eats hot dogs - this is not the case with mobile technology which has to be energy efficient first and foremost. Until we come up with much, much better batteries for our mobile devices, the development of mobile hardware will be hindered.

Due to those two factors _(and more)_ I find their prediction to be greatly unrealistic. Moreover, we have to consider the fact that the XBox 360 was released in 2005 - if Smarphones _by some magical series of fortunate events_ match its processing power by 2015, it's still _10 years later_. That kind of an achievement might sound very impressive now, but in two years time when we'll all move on to next generation systems we might look back at the PS3/XBox 360/Wii and giggle at how blocky those graphics were in comparison to what we have now just like we did every single generation before - a point of reference is very important here.



> Hard to be motivated to hack the wii-u for homebrew when something just as powerfull is so close to being released in portable form.


The WiiU far surpasses the computing power of the XBox 360 and the PS3 - fact. We don't know the exact processing power of the Latte GPU, however when comparing its scans to existing AMD technology one can speculate that it's anywhere between 176GFLOPS _(unlikely, we already know that it's stronger in comparison to XBox 360's GPU)_ and 352GFLOPS _(a much more likely scenario)_ - Smartphones aren't going to be anywhere near that kind of processing power, not in 2015 at least.



> IMO the eshop isn't going to be doing so well once these phones come out. Devs are going to go after the bigger audience. Who doesn't have a phone of some type these days? 3rd party devs may even flack to smart phones and tablets instead of Nintendo for non-casual games.
> If the big names in gaming are not excited nor are the homebrewers about the Wii-u, how can Nintendo get even india devs on board?


Quite easily, actually. Not all phone owners are particularily interested in games _and_ the pricing of mobile games is pretty low in comparison to console games. Moreover, console hardware is specifically created for video game purposes wheras Smartphones are all-purpose computing devices - the SDK's are built in a different way and cater to different styles of development.



> Overall I'm not really surprised. The Wii-u was an horrible idea in hindsight, based on where the market is going.


Why? Tablets are getting more and more popular, the tablet controller was a stroke of genuis. It's a shame that the system was not released, say, a year or two earlier though - then it would have enough time to prove what it's worth and actually compete in the generation in which it belongs rather than play the catch up game with existing consoles before the PS4 and the XBox 720 are released.




muskieratboi said:


> You guys wanna know what the real problem is?
> 
> We won.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I'm no big-time developer, but I do enjoy doodling and coding for the DS, however I find myself unwilling to pay publishing fees on a yearly basis for the opportunity to do so, so that argument goes completely out the window. You know when's a good time to ask for a publishing fee? _When I want to publish something._

Moreover, some of those tools _(PSMobile Suite, Nintendo Web Framework)_ don't even use native code - they're interpreters which limit your resources and don't really give you a lot of hardware access which is often a big no-no. That, and in the case of PSMobile Suite a lot of the functionality is actually cut out for the sake of cross-compatibility. The PSVita has 512MB RAM and 128MB VRAM - how much of it do you get to access when developing in PSM? If memory serves me well, 128MB RAM, and that's both for game code and resources - lovely. That lovely touch panel on the back? Can't use it - smartphones don't have that so it can't be included in PSM. Of course all this is not to say that it's worse than developing for PSP Mode - hell no! I mean, look at this:



...what I'm saying is that it's unnecesarily restrictive for the sake of cross-compatibility with other devices which is a huge shame, plus... well, it's not native code - it works on MonoVM, so you're not using _all_ the resources you _could_ use. 

Homebrew developers _don't_ have actual devkits these days - the one and only instance of that happening was Sony's PlayStation Net Yaroze which was commercially available, region free and came with an SDK, but even that was a cut-down version of what full-time developers used. The restrictions are still draconic, hardware access is still impeded, developers are still forced to use _(what many treat as)_ inferior coding languages and practices and the consoles are still very much _"locked"_ for them.


----------



## DinohScene (May 6, 2013)

muskieratboi said:


> You guys wanna know what the real problem is?
> 
> 
> We won.
> ...


 

Actually not really.
NAND dumpers and other systemtools are still not permitted by Ninty/MS/Sony.
So are ports of Quake etc. 
And some countries in the EU don't have XBLIndie games.

But yeh, I do agree with you.
Homebrew game makers have won with official SDK's indeed.


----------



## Pong20302000 (May 6, 2013)

its funny but true

nice to know it can be done, but that's as far as my interest peaks

Wii mode with the 3 cores would be great as sounds like a load of fun, using the WiiU hardware on the Wii would be nice too. Maybe even able to mod it to use the gamepad screen as a tv for the Wii games and then just use the normal Wii remote for control. Also modding that the Wii could become a gamecube portable

But at least people know it can indeed happen.


----------



## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> The WiiU far surpasses the computing power of the XBox 360 and the PS3 - fact.


Graphical power != "computational" power.

I maintain that the Wii U's CPU is a disappointment.

I know it's a small nitpick, but a lot of people don't know the differences and might be mislead into thinking the Wii U can be an emulation beast or something...


----------



## Janthran (May 6, 2013)

Janthran said:


> You obviously misunderstand the relationship between hackers and GBAtemp because for the most part people here are just idiot leeches who know nothing of what they're doing.
> Me included.


[Truth] liked my post, your argument is invalid


----------



## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Graphical power != "computational" power.
> 
> I maintain that the Wii U's CPU is a disappointment.
> 
> I know it's a small nitpick, but a lot of people don't know the differences and might be mislead into thinking the Wii U can be an emulation beast or something...


Read the context - he was talking about how mobile devices will reach the _graphical fidelity_ of current generation consoles, so I focused on the computational power of the GPU's _(Or perhaps I just misunderstood what he meant - either way, the same mechanisms apply to CPU's, really - it's just the focus of the unit that's different)_. 

While the WiiU's CPU is indeed very underwhelming, _(let's face it - it's literally three Wii cores strapped together and overclocked, more or less)_ it is also not essential for video game purposes - most of the strain goes on the GPU these days and a _"passable"_ CPU is entirely enough as long as the GPU compensates for it. 

Again, CPU's deal with integer maths, GPU's with floating point and seeing that most productions these days are made in 3D and feature advanced physics engines, developers opt for the precision of floating point, so the CPU is not exactly in the spotlight most of the time.

As for Emulation, here the situation naturally flips 180 degrees - a strong processor is required to emulate a different architecture - something the WiiU unfortunately doesn't have, so we agree in this regard.


----------



## Gahars (May 6, 2013)

> <@marcan> *I should qualify that I value noise from real devs. there's plenty of noise from gbatemp, but we all know they just want warez.


 






Aw shucks!


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## jalaneme (May 6, 2013)

what a asswipe, i miss the golden hacking days of the xbox 1, ps2, ps1 e.t.c its such a shame that the scene has turned into this embarrassing mess, devs like this is the reason it took so long for the ps3 to be hacked, i laugh when people say the ps4 will be hacked, no it won't especially with dumb devs like this anyway, good thing i won't be buying any ps4 or net xbox then. 

steam will overtake consoles is this guy serious? have you heard of exclusives smart guy? you know exclusives that nintendo and sony make? I'm sure you will be able to buy that on steam..... dumbass.


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## Gahars (May 6, 2013)

jalaneme said:


> *buttfrustrations*


 
There is no need to be upset, child. All is well.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Gahars said:


> Aw shucks!


 
I should feel honored



Gahars said:


> There is no need to be upset, child. All is well.


 
You got my curiosity, with all the hell and negativity going on the forums the past couple of days, it would be nice if you could expound on the phrase, "all is well". I'm dying to know


----------



## The Catboy (May 6, 2013)

I'm pretty much going to disagree with a large amount of this.
PC gaming will never kill console. Console gaming actually is cheaper than PC gaming, console gaming only requires me to buy one (maybe two) systems at once and pretty much keep that system to entire generation. PC gaming requires me to always be buying new parts when a game doesn't work with my current hardware.
Also Pffffft Android gaming Pfft.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> I'm pretty much going to disagree with a large amount of this.
> PC gaming will never kill console. Console gaming actually is cheaper than PC gaming, console gaming only requires me to buy one (maybe two) systems at once and pretty much keep that system to entire generation. PC gaming requires me to always be buying new parts when a game doesn't work with my current hardware.
> Also Pffffft Android gaming Pfft.


 
Careful, you probably set someone off, like a mod or something! Marcan has spoken, we might as well close all Wii U hacking related thread at this point, his word is ironclad, absolute, messianic.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Gahars said:


> > **butt*frustrations*
> 
> 
> There is no need to be up*set*, child. All is well.


We should invent a new term - _buttset._ I think it has a nice ring to it.

_"Developer doesn't want to release his console hacks so that I can play my illegal copies for free, ergo the developer is a stupid asswipe"_ - uh-huh, that makes sense.


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## [Truth] (May 6, 2013)

jalaneme said:


> brain fart


 
To quote Rydian:


Rydian said:


> You're a prime example of the problem.
> 
> Shut. The Fuck. Up.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Well, I've had my share of enjoyment and happiness for one day, wouldn't you agree? Where is that tanou of mine anyway?


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## Taleweaver (May 6, 2013)

> <@marcan> *I should qualify that I value noise from real devs. there's plenty of noise from gbatemp, but we all know they just want warez.


 
I totally disagree with this!!!



Spoiler



The majority here just wants someone to hold their hand while they attempt to get warez to run.




 

On a more serious note...it's an interesting development. So the wiiu is to boring to hack? Hmm...I wonder if nintendo will bring out the champagne for that.


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## WiiUBricker (May 6, 2013)

A front page news about this? People act like what marcan_troll says, goes.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

WiiUBricker said:


> A front page news about this? People act like what marcan_troll says, goes.


 
Well, doesn't it go that way?



Taleweaver said:


> ​
> I totally disagree with this!!!
> 
> 
> ...


 
Interesting he had an IRC conversation at all, and that he wanted to post the link. Kind of a lost cause it seems if he wanted to post the link that badly, but hey, if people want to prove me wrong, by all means.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

jalaneme said:


> devs like this is the reason it took so long for the ps3 to be hacked


http://www.ps3news.com/ps3-hacks-ja...3-linux-bootloader-on-firmware-3-41-asbestos/
http://www.ps3news.com/ps3-hacks-ja...-marcan-working-on-bringing-ps3-otheros-back/
He was one of the PS3 hackers over two years ago.

_How in the hell do you cross the street daily without getting hit by cars?_  Whatever your method is, don't tell anybody else that has trouble with it.  We don't need you all living long enough to be breeding.


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## WiiUBricker (May 6, 2013)

I have read the complete IRC log and I noticed (apart from the fact that tueidj has been ignored) that there was a lot of trolling going around. Wii U not interesting? Android better than consoles? Ya sure, cool story bro.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> http://www.ps3news.com/ps3-hacks-ja...3-linux-bootloader-on-firmware-3-41-asbestos/
> http://www.ps3news.com/ps3-hacks-ja...-marcan-working-on-bringing-ps3-otheros-back/
> He was one of the PS3 hackers over two years ago.
> 
> _How in the hell do you cross the street daily without getting hit by cars?_ Whatever your method is, don't tell anybody else that has trouble with it. We don't need you all living long enough to be breeding.


 
Holy hell







WiiUBricker said:


> I have read the complete IRC log and I noticed (apart from the fact that tueidj has been ignored) that there was a lot of trolling going around. Wii U not interesting? Android better than consoles? Ya sure, cool story bro.


I find it hilarious that they even bothered to code a working exploit. All I read was more unjustified Nintendo/Wii U bashing. I'll wait around until something interesting happens.


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## The Catboy (May 6, 2013)

WiiUBricker said:


> A front page news about this? People act like what marcan_troll says, goes.


I know right?
Sorry, but one dude does not speak for everyone.



Rydian said:


> http://www.ps3news.com/ps3-hacks-ja...3-linux-bootloader-on-firmware-3-41-asbestos/
> http://www.ps3news.com/ps3-hacks-ja...-marcan-working-on-bringing-ps3-otheros-back/
> He was one of the PS3 hackers over two years ago.
> 
> _How in the hell do you cross the street daily without getting hit by cars?_ Whatever your method is, don't tell anybody else that has trouble with it. We don't need you all living long enough to be breeding.


This seems rather out of character for you Rydian. You feel ok there?


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> I know right?
> Sorry, but one dude does not speak for everyone.
> 
> 
> This seems rather out of character for you Rydian. You feel ok there?


 
But, but, but....a developer's words are *always* absolute.  I don't know what happened, but that seems rather unorthodox of him to be that acerbic. And did what Marcan say really necessitate the making of a front page thread that was immediately locked by the one who made it?


I think I've had enough fun for now.


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## [Truth] (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> How in the hell do you cross the street daily without getting hit by cars? Whatever your method is, don't tell anybody else that has trouble with it. We don't need you all living long enough to be breeding.


It´s a waste of energy messing with kids like this Rydian.
I think the problem with many users on GBATemp is not necessarily a lack of intellect or common sense, but age and experience.
Many users are, going by their posts, kids or teens, who simply don´t understand how an adult thinks or what motivates them.
For an adult marcan's reasoning makes perfect sense, but obviously for younger people not so much.
At least that's what I think about some of GBATemp's "problem users".

Now go insult me, saying that you are not a kid anymore.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

[Truth] said:


> It´s a waste of energy messing with kids like this Rydian.
> I think the problem with many users on GBATemp is not necessarily a lack of intellect or common sense, but age and experience.
> Many users are, going by their posts, kids or teens, who simply don´t understand how an adult thinks or what motivates them.
> For an adult marcan's reasoning makes perfect sense, but obviously for younger people not so much.
> ...


 
Why should I insult you? People take things too personally. And what Rydian said was the most mature adult comment I've read all day. Telling someone not to have kids and implying they're incapable of crossing the road without getting killed isn't being overly irritable at all.  Boy, even I wouldn't go that far.


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> I know right?
> Sorry, but one dude does not speak for everyone.


There are _*31*_ developers involved in this project, they all have _*the same code*_ and nobody feels like releasing it. There can be only two reasons - nobody wants to be _"that guy"_ and step forward _or _nobody's even remotely interested in developing for the WiiU or creating a development infrastructure.

As for Android being a more interesting platform... for homebrew? Of course it is! _Everybody and their dog_ has an Android Smartphone, the SDK is open-source and widely available, selling applications is easy-peasy - in comparison to the WiiU which right now has no Homebrew infrastructure of the "Homebrew Channel" variety, no SDK and slightly underwhelming hardware for console standards it _is_ the preferable option for developers.


----------



## xist (May 6, 2013)




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## Gahars (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> And what Rydian said was the most mature adult comment I've read all day. Telling someone not to have kids and implying they're incapable of crossing the road without getting killed isn't childish at all. Boy, even I wouldn't go that far.


 
Gee, what is hyperbole?

Also, this is Jalaname ("Sony is worse than the mafia!") we're talking about. It's hardly unwarranted at this point.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> There are _*30*_ developers involved in this project, they all have _*the same code*_ and nobody feels like releasing it. There can be only two reasons - nobody wants to be _"that guy"_ and step forward _or _nobody's even remotely interested in developing for the WiiU or creating a development infrastructure.
> 
> As for Android being a more interesting platform... for homebrew? Of course it is! _Everybody and their dog_ has an Android Smartphone, the SDK is open-source and widely available, selling applications is easy-peasy - in comparison to the WiiU which right now has no Homebrew infrastructure of the "Homebrew Channel" variety, no SDK and slightly underwhelming hardware for console standards it _is_ the preferable option for developers.


 
Then they shouldn't have released the IRC log at all. That is called cock-teasing last I heard. If the Wii U isn't interesting, they shouldn't have mentioned the exploit in the first place. That's just being a dickweed. 


Dev 1: So, how about that exploit huh?
Dev 2: You mean the one that can install HBC on the Wii U?
Dev 1: Yeah, that's the one. 
Dev 2: The Wii U isn't interesting at all and people on the Temp
are all pirates, so let's not release it. Plus it's a boring console to code for, let's focus on Android
Dev 1: Sounds good to me.



Gahars said:


> Gee, what is hyperbole?
> 
> Also, this is Jalaname ("Sony is worse than the mafia!") we're talking about. It's hardly unwarranted at this point.


Wouldn't know, I'm out of the loop.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Then they shouldn't have released the IRC log at all. That is called cock-teasing last I heard. If the Wii U isn't interesting, they shouldn't have mentioned the exploit in the first place. That right there is being a trolling sod.


What do you mean by _"release the IRC log"?_ As far as I know, it's freely available - heck, you can join in on many dev channels yourself if you feel like it.


----------



## The Catboy (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> There are _*30*_ developers involved in this project, they all have _*the same code*_ and nobody feels like releasing it. There can be only two reasons - nobody wants to be _"that guy"_ and step forward _or _nobody's even remotely interested in developing for the WiiU or creating a development infrastructure.
> 
> As for Android being a more interesting platform... for homebrew? Of course it is! _Everybody and their dog_ has an Android Smartphone, the SDK is open-source and widely available, selling applications is easy-peasy - in comparison to the WiiU which right now has no Homebrew infrastructure of the "Homebrew Channel" variety, no SDK and slightly underwhelming hardware for console standards it _is_ the preferable option for developers.


I was unaware how many people were part of the team, still won't releasing that code make it more interesting? If these 30 people aren't interested, there are plenty of other groups who would be, again these guys shouldn't speak for a whole community.

And not much to disagree with the second statement, Open-source platforms are perfect for homebrews, that's why I own an Android phone and a Dingoo.
But it's still not going to kill the console market, it might kill the homebrew market on the consoles, but not the gaming part of that market.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> What do you mean by _"release the IRC log"?_ As far as I know, it's freely available - heck, you can join in on many dev channels yourself if you feel like it.


 
You're missing the point, if Marcan and his team of 31 coders deemed the Wii U uninteresting, why did he bother making the exploit at all? Why did he bother posting the IRC log? Why bother making an announcment about a working exploit if you're not going to release it? That's what I mean by cock teasing.

Developing a working exploit that can open the door for homebrew and then not releasing it is like giving your friend a Bugatti Veyron but mentioning that he can't have the keys because it would get ruined if he drove it. Withholding something after telling people it won't be released isn't being a dick at all.


----------



## [Truth] (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> I was unaware how many people were part of the team, still won't releasing that code make it more interesting? If these 30 people aren't interested, there are plenty of other groups who would be, again these guys shouldn't speak for a whole community.


You should read the log again:


> < marcan> I think there's a collective "meh" sentiment about the WiiU. it was fun breaking it but nobody really feels like building an ecosystem out of it
> < marcan> and we saw what happens when you just throw your stuff at people and tell them to run with it (see PS3), so that's not going to happen


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

[Truth] said:


> You should read the log again:


 
I stand by what I said. He shouldn't have linked the IRC log. And since nothing is going to change the mind of a tenacious, hellbent coder, we might as well not have a Wii U homebrew/hacking section.


----------



## Taleweaver (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Interesting he had an IRC conversation at all, and that he wanted to post the link. Kind of a lost cause it seems if he wanted to post the link that badly, but hey, if people want to prove me wrong, by all means.


No...I think it's the other way around: if we (the people) want to prove Marcan wrong, then _we_ should do so. We're being called lazy, incompetent and our whole community being called a bunch of pirates. If this was a true hacker community, teams would probably already be forming to get libogc running on multicore. If for nothing else, to prove his smart ass wrong.

...but I think we both know that that's not going to happen. Because he's the worst kind of arrogant guy: the sort that is actually RIGHT in his observations.


----------



## KingVamp (May 6, 2013)

This is perfect thread for this video.


----------



## The Catboy (May 6, 2013)

[Truth] said:


> You should read the log again:


That doesn't make him the speaker for the community nor does it make it a fact. That's his opinion, not a fact. 
We really can't put these guys up on a pedestal and declare their word is law.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Taleweaver said:


> No...I think it's the other way around: if we (the people) want to prove Marcan wrong, then _we_ should do so. We're being called lazy, incompetent and our whole community being called a bunch of pirates. If this was a true hacker community, teams would probably already be forming to get libogc running on multicore. If for nothing else, to prove his smart ass wrong.
> 
> ...but I think we both know that that's not going to happen. Because he's the worst kind of arrogant guy: the sort that is actually RIGHT in his observations.


 
Convince and prove to Marcan that we aren't that way? Us? 

Yeah, ain't gonna happen. He still shouldn't have mentioned it.



The Catboy said:


> That doesn't make him the speaker for the community nor does it make it a fact. That's his opinion, not a fact.
> We really can't put these guys up on a pedestal and declare their word is law.


But this is the internet. What one developer says is absolute and cannot be refuted, remember? The words of a minority speak for the majority.....right?


----------



## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> I know right?
> Sorry, but one dude does not speak for everyone.


... but he's the guy that did the Wii U hacks, and he talked about the other people he gave them to...



The Catboy said:


> This seems rather out of character for you Rydian. You feel ok there?


What are you talking about?  He was all "marcan is the reason the PS3 took so long to get hacjed, he holds back devs", so I pointed out that _Marcan was one of the PS3 hackers_.

This is another situation like with the PS3, when people were going around saying "fuck geohot he's the reason Sony removed OtherOS" and I had to keep pointing out that geohot's first hack was to put OtherOS back on after Sony removed it...



[Truth] said:


> It´s a waste of energy messing with kids like this Rydian.


If I can at least get them to stop _posting_ stupid shit, then it'll save us annoyance in the future!



the_randomizer said:


> Then they shouldn't have released the IRC log at all. That is called cock-teasing last I heard.


The log was released to answer the questions and accusations that users like you keep making.



Rydian said:


> I've given you this kind of talk before, but seeing how quickly you keep on going back to your old ways each time I guess I should try to clarify again.


And hey, look, *you're right back to calling them teases and insulting them again*, not three full pages after I talked to you about how terrible it is to do that and then mention that I rarely even bother with your posts because you keep going back to doing it.

You're such an asshole that I can count on you to be an asshole in the future to predict your actions!


----------



## [Truth] (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> That doesn't make him the speaker for the community nor does it make it a fact. That's his opinion, not a fact.
> We really can't put these guys up on a pedestal and declare their word is law.


You are worng.
He speaks for the dev community who is capable to hack the system.
There isn´t really more to say.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> You're missing the point, if Marcan and his team of 31 coders deemed the Wii U uninteresting, why did he bother making the exploit at all? Why did he bother posting the IRC log? Why bother making an announcment about a working exploit if you're not going to release it? That's what I mean by cock teasing.
> 
> Developing a working exploit that can open the door for homebrew and then not releasing it is like giving your friend a Bugatti Veyron but mentioning that he can't have the keys because it would get ruined if he drove it. Withholding something after telling people it won't be released isn't being a dick at all.


They made the exploit for sport. Again, some hackers hack devices just for the sake of hacking them - breaking the system is essentially the whole point behind doing so.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

*I'm a sod*


----------



## WiiUBricker (May 6, 2013)

If they weren't interested in the Wii U then why did they bother releasing the HBC for the Wii U's Wii mode?


----------



## SnAQ (May 6, 2013)

So people are butthurt that there's some guys that claim to have a hack that enables homebred on the WiiU but they won't release it because of what it'll lead to and that makes them assholes? 

I'm so sick of people that believes that they're entitled to everything without contributing anything at all. 
People like that makes me wish that they never ever release it, that they destroy everything they have and get amnesia so they can't reproduce what they apparently produced.


----------



## Gahars (May 6, 2013)

The whining and entitlement in this thread is through the goddamned roof.

I don't even give a shit about console hacking and I'm starting to feel embarrassed. Get your shit together, GBAtemp.


----------



## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> If he isn't "teasing" us, what is he doing?


*Answering your goddamned questions and refuting your goddamned accusations*.



WiiUBricker said:


> If they weren't interested in the Wii U then why did they bother releasing the HBC for the Wii U's Wii mode?


Timeframe is important to note.  They were interested enough to port one of their existing programs over.

_They are not currently interested enough to do all the *library and driver work* that would be required to do the same thing in U mode._



These are things stated in the first post, people...


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Gahars said:


> The whining and entitlement in this thread is through the goddamned roof.
> 
> I don't even give a shit about console hacking and I'm starting to feel embarrassed. Get your shit together, GBAtemp.


 
Who said it was anything about entitlement, I'm just saying it would have been better had it never been announced.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Right, but there is no point in announcing it to the world. It would have been better if it wasn't mentioned at all.


That's not how sports work. The question was _"who will do what first"_ - they announced it so they're the _"winners"_ in said sports. For all intents and purposes, you're just the spectator. This is the equivalent of you being mad because Usain Bolt didn't give you his gold medal after you've seen the Olympics.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

*deleted*


----------



## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Would you be so kind and elaborate how we can contribute?





Rydian said:


> You could try looking at user users and see what they do to contribute.  As some examples...
> 
> Write up documentation once you learn how to use something so that user users don't stumble the way you did.
> Do testing and bug reporting to help the devs improve their work, if they ask for such feedback.
> Start a fundraiser to reward a dev for their work and convince them to update something they normally wouldn't want to.



the_randomizer has amnesia.

That explains everything.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> the_randomizer has amnesia.
> 
> That explains everything.


 
If I come up with something, maybe, just maybe.


----------



## [Truth] (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> They are not currently interested enough to do all the library and driver work that would be required to do the same thing in U mode



This, this, this!

They had fun finding the actual exploit, but nobody from these 31 people feels like (what's the English translation of "keinen Bock haben"?) doing the brute work now (aka preparing the exploit for the enduser).


----------



## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

[Truth] said:


> This, this, this!
> 
> They had fun finding the actual exploit, but nobody from these 31 people feels like (what's the English translation of "keinen Bock haben"?) doing the brute work now (aka preparing the exploit for the enduser).


 

Maybe I should contribute....how do we convince them? Would contributing really help?


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## WiiUBricker (May 6, 2013)

Let's face it. They are afraid that Waninkoko could show up and make a cIOS U


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

WiiUBricker said:


> Let's face it. They are afraid that Waninkoko could show up and make a cIOS U


 
Don't hold your breath, unless some miracle happens and they change their mind, don't get too excited.

I gotta be honest, it's hard not to be negative right now, it's hard not to overreact with everyone on edge.


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## The Catboy (May 6, 2013)

[Truth] said:


> This, this, this!
> 
> They had fun finding the actual exploit, but nobody from these 31 people feels like (whats the english translation of "keinen Bock haben"?) doing the brute work now (aka preparing the exploit for the enduser).


Then why not just release what they have? If they aren't interested, then let other people work on it.
They seem to think it's boring, then why not spice things up? Right now they actually have the power to make things interesting, but instead they're just like, "Meh we're not interested, so no one is interested."
That is my major issue with this. 

But honestly if they did find an exploit, there is only time before more people find it, release it, and take credit for it.


----------



## Coto (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Why should I insult you? People take things too personally. And what Rydian said was the most mature adult comment I've read all day. Telling someone not to have kids and implying they're incapable of crossing the road without getting killed isn't being overly irritable at all. Boy, even I wouldn't go that far.


 





Guys at libretroarch have left. Know why? because you kept bashing them. Then you excused, they said no probie, then you did it again, at least three times, then they left.

A child could say "dizhomebrewsuckz", and we all know it's a child, but when someone with a few ages ahead _behaves like one_ in the end breaks, pisses off any respect, or "partnership" that coders could build. If you're an user, expect everything free to be a gift, and if you're given the possibility to share an idea, or improve some factor, god bless that someone working for free, as requires insanely amounts of time/thinking/logic to do it, moreover the app already has some advanced features, that requires re-coding over and over so homebrew devs "pleases" any idea(s) given by users.

The problem is, users show no respect for devs, so in the end devs do the same.

-

Though,I hate supreme god devs (or mathematicians). Those who didn't spend enough time with human beings, and think their logic is perfect, or they're so smart, that everyone should beg them for help. I guess living between just numbers and computers will give you a sad life, anyway.


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## Vappy (May 6, 2013)

[Truth] said:


> (whats the english translation of "keinen Bock haben"?)


 
'Can't be bothered' 

And it's been said many times in this thread already, but it really is a sad state we've reached! A console so uninteresting that even the homebrew devs who could open it up aren't interested any more. Looks like, in the coming generation(s), 'console hacking' is going to fall exclusively to the companies who do it only for profit, and only sell game loaders or ones infested with DRM. I guess we can hope that the PS4 and neXtBox have enough to pique their interest again, since they are both supposedly touting some powerful hardware.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> Then why not just release what they have? If they aren't interested, then let other people work on it.
> They seem to think it's boring, then why not spice things up? Right now they actually have the power to make things interesting, instead they're just like, "Meh we're not interested, so no one is interested."
> 
> But honestly if they did find an exploit, there is only time before more people find it, release it, and take credit for it.


 
Perhaps they need a little....*motivation*. Just because they're not interested doesn't mean no one else is.  If they want people to be interested, maybe they need to let other people help with QA testing. I can guarantee that if that were to happen, there would be more interest.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> Then why not just release what they have? If they aren't interested, then let other people work on it.
> They seem to think it's boring, then why not spice things up? Right now they actually have the power to make things interesting, instead they're just like, "Meh we're not interested, so no one is interested."
> 
> But honestly if they did find an exploit, there is only time before more people find it, release it, and take credit for it.


They don't want to release the raw exploit info because then anybody could take it and make a "standard" ISO loader.  Not only do they not want the ISO loader to exist, but they fear that if it happens quickly, most other people won't bother making real homebrew for the system (using their experience in the PS3 scene as an example).

So from their point of view, it'd be detrimental to their views if they released it. So they do not release it. Sort of like how it'd be detrimental of me to include pics of my penis in this post. So I choose not to do it, and it's less work on top of it all, so win-win.


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## kisamesama (May 6, 2013)

I kind of agree with Marcan on "why bother with closed systems when there are more and more opened gaming systems now" .. I will stick with my pc for hardcore gaming  You can't go wrong with a pc for hardcore gaming. I will save my money and invest in an upgrade on my pc vs a console


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> They don't want to release the raw exploit info because then anybody could take it and make a "standard" ISO loader. Not only do they not want the ISO loader to exist, but they fear that if it happens quickly, most other people won't bother making real homebrew for the system (using their experience in the PS3 scene as an example).
> 
> So from their point of view, it'd be detrimental to their views if they released it. So they do not release it. Sort of like how it'd be detrimental of me to include pics of my penis in this post. So I choose not to do it, and it's less work on top of it all, so win-win.


 
So are you saying that we can't rule out homebrew being impossible altogether, that there might be a chance sometime down the road? There's got to be some way to help convince them, because I don't know if contributing would.


----------



## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> So are you saying that we can't rule out homebrew being impossible altogether, that there might be a chance sometime down the road?


Correct.  This thread and set of quotes is just about why the specific people who already worked on some part of it do not want to work on the rest of it.

That's why it's titled "Marcan Clarifies"...


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## dickfour (May 6, 2013)

The problem with open consoles is that the games just are not the same caliber, at least not yet.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Correct. This thread and set of quotes is just about why the specific people who already worked on some part of it do not want to work on the rest of it.
> 
> That's why it's titled "Marcan Clarifies"...


 
Good. As long as there's still a chance, not all is lost. As for ISO loaders, I couldn't care less. Region locking removal, old-school emulators I look forward to. Glad there's still hope.


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## Scuba156 (May 6, 2013)

Feels like a very familiar scene with an in crowd of Devs. 31 people who have the means to develop for the Wii U so the general consensus is that there is no interest in actually developing for it. So what about the others who actually do have an interest in developing for it such as myself that isn't apart of this circle?

The 360 homebrew wasn't dead due to no interest, it was a lack of availability and the lack of any sort of combined community due to an "in crowd" of elitists. I was a homebrew developer for the 360, and I left the scene twice after attempting to get back into it due to the constant 'bullying' from these groups who only class the "in crowd" as actual developers and class everyone else as shit. The homebrew scene has been dying all around due to the online personas these people have which brings a lack of interest in being apart of that bullshit scene, but not a lack of interest in developing for these closed systems.

If they choose not to release any details, then that's fine, they discovered that information and they can do what they want with it, that's their choice. Just don't act like dickbags, act like elitist gods that you think you are, or bring others down in doing so.


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## The Catboy (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> They don't want to release the raw exploit info because then anybody could take it and make a "standard" ISO loader. Not only do they not want the ISO loader to exist, but they fear that if it happens quickly, most other people won't bother making real homebrew for the system (using their experience in the PS3 scene as an example).
> 
> So from their point of view, it'd be detrimental to their views if they released it. So they do not release it. Sort of like how it'd be detrimental of me to include pics of my penis in this post. So I choose not to do it, and it's less work on top of it all, so win-win.


I honestly didn't think of it in that way. Not going to lie, I was looking more at this for the homebrew perspective and wasn't really thinking about the iso loaders. 

Guess when you look at it with the perspective that they don't want their code to be used for piracy, then yeah I now understand why they don't want to release it.


----------



## FAST6191 (May 6, 2013)

dickfour said:


> The problem with open consoles is that the games just are not the same caliber, at least not yet.



Had this been PS2 era then we might have come to an agreement but today they are pretty much the same thing give or take minor graphics differences.

Re "closing the thread on the portal"
Err it was linked to this thread and done so we do not have two separate lines of discussion.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Scuba156 said:


> Feels like a very familiar scene with an in crowd of Devs. 31 people who have the means to develop for the Wii U so the general consensus is that there is no interest in actually developing for it. So what about the others who actually do have an interest in developing for it such as myself that isn't apart of this circle?
> 
> The 360 homebrew wasn't dead due to no interest, it was a lack of availability and the lack of any sort of combined community due to an "in crowd" of elitists. I was a homebrew developer for the 360, and I left the scene twice after attempting to get back into it due to the constant 'bullying' from these groups who only class the "in crowd" as actual developers and class everyone else as shit. The homebrew scene has been dying all around due to the online personas these people have which brings a lack of interest in being apart of that bullshit scene, but not a lack of interest in developing for these closed systems.
> 
> If they choose not to release any details, then that's fine, they discovered that information and they can do what they want with it, that's their choice. Just don't act like dickbags, act like elitist gods that you think you are, or bring others down in doing so.


 
I wouldn't get your hopes up for quite a while longer.


----------



## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> So from their point of view, it'd be detrimental to their views if they released it. So they do not release it. Sort of like how *it'd be detrimental of me to include pics of my penis in this post. So I choose not to do it*, and it's less work on top of it all, so win-win.


...do you really choose not to?

...or is the society forcing its draconian restrictions of penis distribution on you?

Rydian, take off the chains, Open Source your penis!


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## Scuba156 (May 6, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> I wouldn't get your hopes up for quite a while longer.


My hopes for an actual homebrew scene that is full of people actually helping each other and creating a great community to be in died a long long time ago.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> ...do you really choose not to?
> 
> ...or is the society forcing its draconian restrictions of penis distribution on you?
> 
> Rydian, take off the chains, Open Source your penis!


(thaddius): I'm being forced to wear pants against my will, does that make our social structure immoral?
(AlanJohn): Yes
(thaddius): I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who wants to see my junk in public.


----------



## Coto (May 6, 2013)

Scuba156 said:


> Feels like a very familiar scene with an in crowd of Devs. 31 people who have the means to develop for the Wii U so the general consensus is that there is no interest in actually developing for it. So what about the others who actually do have an interest in developing for it such as myself that isn't apart of this circle?
> 
> The 360 homebrew wasn't dead due to no interest, it was a lack of availability and the lack of any sort of combined community due to an "in crowd" of elitists. I was a homebrew developer for the 360, and I left the scene twice after attempting to get back into it due to the constant 'bullying' from these groups who only class the "in crowd" as actual developers and class everyone else as shit. The homebrew scene has been dying all around due to the online personas these people have which brings a lack of interest in being apart of that bullshit scene, but not a lack of interest in developing for these closed systems.
> 
> If they choose not to release any details, then that's fine, they discovered that information and they can do what they want with it, that's their choice. Just don't act like dickbags, act like elitist gods that you think you are, or bring others down in doing so.


 
Stuff like : "you call that math?!" "heck I did that while I was taking a ****" "How could you even not know y performs x while z is 1??!". There's a reason I'm on assembly at some architectures now, and it's love for knowledge, and maths behaviour. Not to say "look mom, I've hacked my *insert important computer name*, and you know what? I did it ALONE! "

Guess the army who built that CPU, GPU, mathematical physicians doesn't count, and the CPU came off some dogs**t. They're probably a few years ahead more smart, their logic is way better and more structured,and they do it for money, taking their jobs seriously. And the best of it, they're humans, as some of them can even give you support at, like IBM if you ask politely (as long it isn't tied to any specific contract or confidential data)

the piracy support to a newly released console could kill it instantly, too


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## comex (May 6, 2013)

The sad thing is that there's a 100% chance I would be joining in the complaining if I weren't privy.  Drives me crazy every time there's a cabal of people with access to the secret stuff (that they developed), whether it's Wii hacks or a pony-themed fighting game... for me, a large part of the reason is irrational and selfish, but it's still there.


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## Taleweaver (May 6, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> Then why not just release what they have? If they aren't interested, then let other people work on it.
> They seem to think it's boring, then why not spice things up? Right now they actually have the power to make things interesting, but instead they're just like, "Meh we're not interested, so no one is interested."
> That is my major issue with this.
> 
> But honestly if they did find an exploit, there is only time before more people find it, release it, and take credit for it.


For one, there is the legal mess. If they released it, it's only a matter of time before an iso loader will be released on the internet. And if it comes to a courtroom, they can be pointed to as accomplices because they have released the hack. Unlikely, yes...but considering they don't WANT to have an iso loader in the first place, I'd think twice before releasing it as well.
(wait...no...skip that. I wouldn't release it to begin with. And there wouldn't be a doubt about it)

What do you mean with "spice things up"? I know a couple programmers, and I really don't want to think about what would happen if they decide to skip the bug testing phase because it's "too boring".

I don't know who those 31 guys are, but I doubt they're random passers-by on the street. No doubt these are the sort of people who have the knowledge of actually USING the exploit for something.
And considering how few hackers I've seen on this site*, 31 is actually a pretty large number. Perhaps even large enough to wonder if the smaller number is the guys they leave out (read: the ones who just want to create iso loaders).

To put upright: who here actually WANTS that exploit? All I read is assumptions that "others" will know how to use it, but isn't that an assumption of itself? At least Marcan's talking in name of a part of the hacker scène.


On the last thing...yeah...it's certainly possible someone else finds it. And if that someone isn't a nintendo employee, he may actually release it. But TBH, I don't think anyone of that group is going to care about it, let alone change their mind about whether to release something for it.



*I mean _hackers_, here. Not script kiddies, beta testers, crackers, tweakers or anyone of that kind. I'm talking about someone who actually know how to do reverse engineering on a closed system and that sort of shit.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

comex said:


> The sad thing is that there's a 100% chance I would be joining in the complaining if I weren't privy.  Drives me crazy every time there's a cabal of people with access to the secret stuff (that they developed), whether it's Wii hacks or a pony-themed fighting game... for me, a large part of the reason is irrational and selfish, but it's still there.


Yeah I don't really agree with their reasoning for withholding the info, but I don't think any of us can tell them they need to release anything (at least in the way many people here want to do).


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

There has got to be something, we the members of the Temp, can do to help them


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Right, I'm going to state my point of view in bulletpoints before I jetpack myself out of this thread:

It is a huge shame, naturally.
It is a big waste of tons of research and developers who are interested in development for the WiiU will have to unnecesarily go through the research phase again for no reason at all if they feel like coding for the system _(unless they're planning to share the info with actual developers, this is to be seen) _and that goes againts the _"ideals"_ of Open Source development that seems to be praised on Android devices mentioned in the log.
It is a bit of a cocktease and there is a degree of trolling here _(hence the nick)_, but at the end of the day, it's their research and they do whatever they want with it.
I am a little bit upset, even if only because this means that the waiting game continues when it really doesn't have to.
They're entitled to do this. I'm a small-time hobbyst coder and I wouldn't want my code misused or literally copy-pasted without my blessing in projects that I find inappropriate either _(even though all my libraries are Open Source and freely available, albeit not very useful since they're beginner-oriented)_.
I'm not going to lie - I pirate stuff myself and I know for a fact that given the chance, I would pirate on the WiiU, so I can see how they assume that releasing this code would be a bad idea. It is a bad idea for them as it goes againts their beliefs - simple.
...that being said, it would be a great opportunity for Homebrew development at the same time. Using myself as an example, I only got the DS because I could pirate games on it and I ended up learning the basics of C, game development and I started using PALib, NightFox Lib and LibNDS... so the fact that I could run unsigned code allowed me to self-improve in a lot of areas.
We'll see what the future has in store for us - nobody knows what's going to happen.


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## The Catboy (May 6, 2013)

Taleweaver said:


> *snip


I would like to rephrase some of my previous statements. I didn't look at this in the perspective of the piracy uses their code could provide, I was looking at it more in the idea of using it only for homebrews. I can be a little naive, not going to lie.
My wording such as "spicing things up" yeah not the best choice in words, but we all make mistakes in working. Honestly coming into this thread, I didn't think about the idea of piracy and was only thinking about the use of homebrews from this exploit. I was in the wrong in a lot of my posts and I apologize for that.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Right, I'm going to state my point of view in bulletpoints before I jetpack myself out of this thread:
> 
> It is a huge shame, naturally.
> It is a big waste of tons of research and developers who are interested in development for the WiiU will have to unnecessarily go through the research phase again for no reason at all if they feel like coding for the system _(unless they will share the info with actual developers, this is to be seen)._
> ...


 
There is so much potential that the Wii U and 3DS have homebrew-wise, so much that there could be a huge explosion of people wanting to develop code, and I hope that the potentiality of being a part of that scene isn't totally eradicated. From their standpoint, yes, it would be a major detriment should their code be leaked, hell, I admit that if I coded something for one reason but it was leaked and the code was altered for malicious purposes, I guess I'd be pretty effing pissed too.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Scuba156 said:


> ~


You do know that the development point they stopped at as well before apps an end-user can run is at, right?  They're talking about the basic libraries for homebrew (as we know it) to be able to run in the first place.

Some issues were even named specifically.


----------



## silver_ryder (May 6, 2013)

When people don't want to pay for there games, the way-out is to talk about open platforms, android, PC, homebrews, etc, etc.

But the truth is that if wasn't for gaming consoles most of the triple A games didn't exist...!

The truth is that android, IOS, isn't the best choice for some one that like to play triple A games, for some one whiling to pay for that kind of games, unfortunately most of the consumers prefer pick and play games, and pay little amounts for crappy games, DLC, unlocks of demos or to skip ads, etc,etc, and only because they prefer to play without spend money on quality games.


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## Vappy (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> You do know that the development point they stopped at as well before apps an end-user can run is at, right? They're talking about the basic libraries for homebrew (as we know it) to be able to run in the first place.
> 
> Some issues were even named specifically.


 
So drawing a comparison between this and what yifanlu has done with the Vita is quite apt, then? Both have a method to run code, it's just waiting for someone with the knowledge and interest required to put together an SDK.


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## Rydian (May 6, 2013)

Vappy said:


> So drawing a comparison between this and what yifanlu has done with the Vita is quite apt, then? Both have a method to run code, it's just waiting for someone with the knowledge and interest required to put together an SDK.


_Last I read_ (which was maybe two months ago), that was the case, so I'd say it's a similar situation yeah.

Most homebrew doesn't use the official SDK, so new libraries and such need to be written, and this isn't a simple process (if it's going to be done correctly).


----------



## Vappy (May 6, 2013)

silver_ryder said:


> -


 
Those kind of consumers aren't exclusive to mobile devices. The 'freemium' model is gaining traction on PC as well, across all kinds of games, LoL/Dota, TF2, many modern MMOs. And with Ouya and Steambox consolising the mobile and PC market respectively, it's something that the Big Three of consoles, and all the triple-A developers, are eventually going to have to compete with directly, whether they like it or not.


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## Hielkenator (May 6, 2013)

So basically he tells people there's no interest in hacking closed devices.
He's all about "the open systems" .
And it seems he likes to have fun, at coding.
Too lazy to struggle for a system that is just normal.
NINTY RELEASE SOME GODDAMN GAMES!!!!

Good for him.

To be clear I AM NOT IN THE MOBILE/ANDROID ETC MAINSTREAM.
Maybe it's because I'm to old, or the fact that everybody has one.
Also the provided media feels very, very cheap.
Almost like it's "too easy" to make something without any effort....


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Vappy said:


> So drawing a comparison between this and what yifanlu has done with the Vita is quite apt, then? Both have a method to run code, it's just waiting for someone with the knowledge and interest required to put together an SDK.


yifanlu's UVLoader is not capable of running any form of game backups by proxy - it uses an existing application as a base and stores commands from the original code that can be used in homebrew development _(ROP Programming) _so that the system thinks it's running the original code _(and for all intents and purposes it does - just in a different order)_. This is why it's called a _"Userland"_ or _"User Mode"_ exploit - it does not allow any Kernel access and no backup loading, just homebrew based on the code extracted from the base application.


----------



## Vappy (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> -


 
Yes, I understood that UVL would only run with Usermode access. I wasn't making a comparison of the capabilities, just the state of release, ie. nothing until someone puts together something to actually make it useful to homebrewers.



Rydian said:


> and this isn't a simple process (if it's going to be done correctly).


 
I imagine it's not, or it probably would've been done already. I'd suggest a fundraiser to motivate them, (like the one for Quadforce that as of last night successfully reached its goal thanks to a number of generous individuals) but proportional to the amount of work that'd need to be done to write an SDK, a fundraiser would probably need to be for thousands rather than hundreds, and I unfortunately don't see there being quite that many generous people


----------



## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Vappy said:


> Yes, I understood that UVL would only run with Usermode access. I wasn't making a comparison of the capabilities, just the state of release, ie. nothing until someone puts together something to actually make it useful to homebrewers.


Well, it's not exactly the same.

With UVLoader, the functions are being continuously mapped by developers behind the scenes and the loader itself will be released once at least a very basic SDK is ready. With this WiiU exploit, all they have is very basic functionality that allows them to say _"yeah, it's hacked"_ without mapping all the registers and finding out what they do in the grand scheme of things.

Due to a very different nature of the exploit _(mapping commands in an existing application without having to bother with the hardware at all versus mapping registers and creating custom functions)_ it's hard to compare them, I'd say that the UVLoader is much _"closer to release"_ than a WiiU SDK.


----------



## Vappy (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Well, it's not exactly the same.
> 
> With UVLoader, the functions are being continuously mapped by developers behind the scenes and the loader itself will be released once at least a very basic SDK is ready. With this WiiU exploit, all they have is very basic functionality that allows them to say _"yeah, it's hacked"_ without mapping all the registers and finding out what they do in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> Due to a very different nature of the exploit _(mapping commands in an existing application without having to bother with the hardware at all versus mapping registers and creating custom functions)_ it's hard to compare them, I'd say that the UVLoader is much _"closer to release"_ than a WiiU SDK.


 

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification  I guess the comparison wasn't the best one I could've made!

I wonder, though, if a developer outside the initial 31 and with the necessary skills offers to do the legwork, if they'd be willing to share what they have, or if they plan to keep it under wraps and just hope that one of their current trustworthy developers eventually finds the motivation.


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## Foxi4 (May 6, 2013)

Vappy said:


> I wonder, though, if a developer outside the initial 31 and with the necessary skills offers to do the legwork, if they'd be willing to share what they have, or if they plan to keep it under wraps and just hope that one of their current trustworthy developers eventually finds the motivation.


Here we hit the Dog in the Manger dilemma, to an extent. As it's mentioned in the log, the developers themselves don't feel like releasing the code themselves because it can be used for malicious purposes _and_ they don't feel like creating an infrastructure for homebrew development _(a complete SDK)_ just to see it used in piracy or not used at all _(see: XBox 360 Homebrew Scene, if that even exists at this point)_.

That being said, they may be _reluctant_ to share it with other developers _precisely_ because they're not a part of the circle of 31 trusted developers - they may use the code in a beneficial way, but they may as well do the opposite so they'd have to be well-known developers who are known for opposing piracy - do note that Marcan says he's not going to share any interesting bits on IRC because _"the WiiKeyU people might be fishing for info"_. There would have to be an established bond of trust between the developers in question and... well... those who are trusted already have the code.


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## Scuba156 (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> You do know that the development point they stopped at as well before apps an end-user can run is at, right?  They're talking about the basic libraries for homebrew (as we know it) to be able to run in the first place.
> 
> Some issues were even named specifically.


Oh I know, they were able to exploit the system and got access to it, and a open SDK and libs are still needed. There are others that can help contribute to that.

My comments had nothing to do with the progress of the exploit or them keeping any gathered information to themselves, as such I stated they are free to do what they want with the information they hold. My comment was about the state of the homebrew scene and Marcans thoughts on there being no interest by developers in creating homebrew content for closed systems such as the Wii U.


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## Vappy (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> and... well... those who are trusted already have the code.


 
Indeed. So it seems like the latter option being the far more likely one. 

And really, seeing how much effort yellows8 and neimod are going through on 3dbrew, I can easily see how anyone might be put off committing to such a large project, especially, as you say, given that the end result could very easily go largely unused for software besides game loaders...


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## comex (May 6, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Due to a very different nature of the exploit _(mapping commands in an existing application without having to bother with the hardware at all versus mapping registers and creating custom functions)_ it's hard to compare them, I'd say that the UVLoader is much _"closer to release"_ than a WiiU SDK.


 
For the record, the Wii U supports the cutting edge 1964 technology of dynamic linking, and uses it for the official SDK, so it would be possible to legally develop homebrew applications using the official SDK.  However, people are more interested in getting Linux to run than a 'SDK' as such, which, of course, will require a lot of hardware mapping crap.


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## Vappy (May 6, 2013)

comex said:


> people are more interested in getting Linux to run than a 'SDK'


 
Makes me think that the best thing a console manufacturer could do for the security of their hardware would be to do something similar to OtherOS, running Linux with access to the hardware that homebrewers care about but locking out any capability for loading games. As long as the coders can make their homebrew, there'll be no reason for hackers to go looking for any ways to unlock any more of the console. How long might the PS3 have gone without being jailbroken had they kept OtherOS functionality...


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## Ziggy Zigzagoon (May 6, 2013)

> < marcan> 31 trustworthy people have the info from last year. if nobody has released anything yet it's because nobody is motivated/interested enough to do anything with it.
> < marcan> I think there's a collective "meh" sentiment about the WiiU. it was fun breaking it but nobody really feels like building an ecosystem out of it
> < marcan> and we saw what happens when you just throw your stuff at people and tell them to run with it (see PS3), so that's not going to happen


Wait, what? Is not the PS3 homebrew community strong?




> <@marcan> heck, other than random twittards, I've heard basically no noise/pestering for us to release stuff
> <@marcan> I think there really isn't as much interest as there should be to make this viable/worth it


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdny9iIqtS1racybko1_250.gif
People have been more respectful of scene releasers. People have actually been _enforcing_ respect! 



> <@marcan> *I should qualify that I value noise from real devs. there's plenty of noise from gbatemp, but we all know they just want warez.


http://adventuresofalostboy.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/eeyup.gif (at least to me, though I wanted to unlock my PS3 for more than just the .ps3 files)




> < marcan> if we get lazy and unmotivated, they might be too incompetent to break the new ones


Wait... 'break'?



> < marcan> not as awesome as us though, we did have to pull of a pretty epic <censored> attack for the wii u
> < marcan> it's a bit scary how well these things work sometimes
> <@marcan> [cuss] the most interesting bit so far was the compat VI
> <@marcan> and we already reverse engineered that


http://64.imagebam.com/download/BtW...55/RandallHasNeverBeenSoTurnedOnInHisLife.jpg




> <@marcan> Muzer: fwiw you CAN get three cores in wii mode, with restrictions, with some tricks. but good luck getting libogc ported to multicore (so there's really no point)


Haime? I did not know that Wii can get to 2 cores! 




> <@marcan> delroth: yeah. I mean, the controller is cute, but everything else is just bog standard
> <@marcan> sure, three cores, woohoo, but we have quad-core ARMs now
> <@marcan> also, the SIMD is still made of fail
> <@marcan> that's still what I find the saddest about the CPU
> ...


For one thing, games sell consoles. For another thing, I regret the whole 'Nintendoo pushing weakened hardware' ideology. (I mean, why do _Pokémon X_ and _Pokémon Y_ make pooie graphics instead of using the _fabulous_ graphics and lighting engine from the _Pokédex 3D_? They could even import from _Pokémon Battle Revolution_!




> < marcan> why buy closed platforms when open ones are cheaper and better


I already said that games sells consoles. While Lignux allows for stronger hardware, there is not that much support for Lignux compared to, say, Windows.




> < marcan> m_b_v: that's the point - publishers just need to get their act together and start releasing for android and PC.


The makes of LibRetro know how _difficult_ is a port to the Android, especially when things do not work nicely. I can not blame Google for that, though.




> <@marcan> [cuss], the GC was awesome in almost every way
> <@marcan> (in its day)
> <@marcan> best controllers, best game media storage/performance balance, nice CPU and GPU (for its time)


To be honest, I also really like the GameCube controller best. I wish I could buy one of those adapters from GameCube to computer.



> <@tueidj> ninty thought the gc GPU was so nice, they reused it for the wii


Oh, dear...


----------



## mysticwaterfall (May 6, 2013)

Some people in this thread seem to think devs are altruistic angels who devote countless free hours to projects for some sort of greater good of the community. Unless a dev is getting paid to do a specific job, they are doing things because it is interesting to them, not anybody else. If they lost interest after the challenge was over, that's their right. It would be like saying somebody who hates a show should make a full Wiki guide for it just because people want them too.

Again devs do things because it interests them, nobody else. While it might be frustating, it is thier rights. Complaining about how entitled you are to other peoples hard work in there free time doesn't change anything.


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## mkdms14 (May 6, 2013)

Ok soo is he saying that console hacking is dead because it requires too much effort and does not yield enough results?  Does that mean this is the end for home-brew in general?


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## WiiUBricker (May 6, 2013)

mkdms14 said:


> Ok soo is he saying that console hacking is dead because it requires too much effort and does not yield enough results? Does that mean this is the end for home-brew in general?


No because they will disclose their findings eventually. At the latest when modding companies start to rip people off.


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## Arizato (May 6, 2013)

The drama in this thread...


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## Deleted_171835 (May 6, 2013)

Zmizk said:


> The drama in this thread...


And people wonder why folks on GBAtemp aren't taken seriously.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

Rydian said:


> You do know that the _*development point they stopped at as well before apps an end-user can run*_ is at, right? They're talking about the basic libraries for homebrew (as we know it) to be able to run in the first place.
> 
> Some issues were even named specifically.


 
That right there is where my stupidity in my comments went for bad to worse right down to hellfire and brimstone. That is where I got confused, did that IRC log specify that explicitly that the current code they had wouldn't truly benefit most users?



Zmizk said:


> The drama in this thread...


 
And here I thought you weren't expecting civilized discussions on the internet


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

soulx said:


> And people wonder why folks on GBAtemp aren't taken seriously.


 
I never thought they were.


----------



## Arizato (May 6, 2013)

soulx said:


> And people wonder why folks on GBAtemp aren't taken seriously.


 
Exactly my point as well.


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## BrightNeko (May 6, 2013)

I read the first 3 pages, and skimmed the rest. It is mostly just homebrew and piracy argument. No one has really brought up making a console region free/accessing another eshop, or making a system easier to use. I would love to be able to import wii u games or 3DS titles and just straight play them. Not have to buy an entirely new console just to play imports. An as for making the system easier to use, what I mean by that is the wii u isn't very good at its job. I've had data stop working from monster hunter, games flat out not load anymore because I shut the system down from the controller, and many a network error just by moving the wii u a room away from the router. Might seem like silly complaints but I recall tons of fixes for these kinds of things on the PSP and Wii. Hell in the PSP's case it was the only way to finish some things in mana khemia because without adjusting the clock speed the game would for some strange reason crash in regular fights in a dungeon, something NISA just said to "deal with".

That said homebrew wise I think Ratboi is mostly right, it is just to easy to get your stuff on consoles now which is a awesome.

-edit-
Part for the above bit, game translations. This runs aside the import part, fine example is fatal frame 4 getting a full translation for the wii, with a great way of running it to. Loading the translation off an SD card for legit disc copies.


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## Walker D (May 6, 2013)

BrightNeko said:


> No one has really brought up making a console region free/accessing another eshop (...)


 
I was thinking about that also ... but releasing something like that, wouldn't be enough of a gap for other people to use this new know-how/code to create some ways to pirate?
Maybe even a small hack window would be enough for starting a hacking/pirating spree ....what this guys may not want..


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## Hielkenator (May 6, 2013)

We really should admire marcan's clairvoyance, it seems he knows exactly what people want, and what homebrew devs are going to come up with.


Fact is he doesn't know shit about what will happen if they would release the hack they presumably have for WiiU.
It's all speculation.
My guess is that it's just to hard for them to do it the way they did it with Wii, and that they are pissed somebody else beat them in the hacking game.
I'll never forget how they "stole "Giantpunes"exploit.....
I think that clarifies it a lot more.

Ahh, but what do I know???... just speculating


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## chyyran (May 6, 2013)

I think there still is an argument to be made for preservation here, hacking open the WiiU simply for the sake of exploring the system for emulation. An open, publicly available archive, interpreter of a machine that in the future may no longer be available. Even though most people, admittedly including me use emulators for piracy, it is still a useful tool that maps out the internal workings of a machine. A hundred years from now, the actual, physical machine may be lost to history, but I bet my ass some form of emulator will remain somewhere, allowing our descendants to study deeply how our entertainment machines work, and, perhaps touching on the subject of piracy, allowing our descendants to experience the games we played. The ISOs of the WiiU games by then would have been in public domain, but if no tool is available to play them, they'll be useless.

While I agree that developing for these is becoming more rapidly accessible, it's not accessible enough. As well, whenever a console comes out, warez will become an inevitability. Its unlikely that the WiiUKey is a hoax, but if that comes out, the chances of exploring the internals of the system with that peripheral is low, and truly only contributes to piracy. While opening up the WiiU may enable piracy, it also enables, as I've said, historical archival of the system internals and games, a free ecosystem, however small for the console, and perhaps much more. 

While it may go against their morals, in my opinion, the pros continue to outweigh the cons if piracy is treated as a con. Information is meant to be openly available to everyone, and even though that may not be the case in real life, its still a good ideal to strive towards in all aspects, including the WiiU.


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## pwsincd (May 6, 2013)

he's one of the 31 so called privvy people , he speaks for all I guess. Or does he hold all the cards ? I guess the rest are busy devving last gen homebrew , maybe we can play gc backups with wiimotes soon , gotta be more interesting working on that.  
Maybe we should have irc logs of all "The Wonderful 31" commenting.


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## Dork (May 6, 2013)

"I hope the Wii U gets hacked soon, I want to play my pirated games homebrew!"

*marcan states hacking the Wii U is boring and that open source is better*

"Hah, consoles are dieing, down with homebrew, anyone who disagrees with me is an entitled manchild!"

GBAtemp confirmed for one huge hive-mind.


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## dauphin327 (May 6, 2013)

I contacted Wasabi team who made Wasabi360, and they told me they might have been creating a ode for the Wii U. WiiKey have competition?


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## WiiUBricker (May 6, 2013)

marcan_troll is probably enjoying analog audio alongside HDMI.


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## the_randomizer (May 6, 2013)

WiiUBricker said:


> marcan_troll is probably enjoying analog audio alongside HDMI.


 
Not surprised, move along, nothing to see here. I find that name to rather appropriate, all things considered.

Open consoles being "better" than closed consoles is an opinion, not a fact.


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## mysticwaterfall (May 7, 2013)

You can agree with marcan's opinions or not, but they are his to have. If you really want him to release something, insulting the man and making the thread a flamefest certainly is not going to achieve that goal. If anything, it just proves his point.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

mysticwaterfall said:


> You can agree with marcan's opinions or not, but they are his to have. If you really want him to release something, insulting the man and making the thread a flamefest certainly is not going to achieve that goal. If anything, it just proves his point.


 
What would you suggest we do? We're not happy about it, yes, and we need to respect opinions, but what can we, as a community, do to help soften his stance a bit?


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## DiscostewSM (May 7, 2013)

Might just be me, but reading the selection of quotes on the OP reminded me of GameFAQs forums.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

DiscostewSM said:


> Might just be me, but reading the selection of quotes on the OP reminded me of GameFAQs forums.


 
Ouch


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## WiiUBricker (May 7, 2013)

mysticwaterfall said:


> You can agree with marcans opinions or not, but they are his to have.


Well, I want all my opinions posted at the front page too


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

WiiUBricker said:


> Well, I want all my opinions posted at the front page too


 
Ooh, ooh, can I have mine up there as well?


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## Foxi4 (May 7, 2013)

WiiUBricker said:


> Well, I want all my opinions posted at the front page too





the_randomizer said:


> Ooh, ooh, can I have mine up there as well?


As soon as you become world-renowned scene hackers, yes.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> As soon as you become world-renowned scene hackers, yes.


 
Okay, I'll look up those C/C+ manuals. I've been meaning to look at those anyway.


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## Foxi4 (May 7, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Okay, I'll look up those C/C+ manuals. I've been meaning to look at those anyway.


See you in 20 years time.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> See you in 20 years time.


 
Sounds good


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## Sterling (May 7, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> It's hard to find more appropriate examples though - you'd have to find a flashcart that does only homebrew and compare it to a flashcart that does both homebrew and backups.
> 
> _OWAIT, iPLA--_ nevermind, iPlayer is _dead.  _


I still have an iPlayer. It does what it needs to do and sits in an unused box near my bed as I can't sleep without it.

My take on homebrew enabled systems is that piracy is a side effect and not the main draw. I like being able to run back-ups, but the fact that my system can be an all in one box and do everything is much more appealing than the free games.


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## Foxi4 (May 7, 2013)

Sterling said:


> My take on homebrew enabled systems is that piracy is a side effect and not the main draw. I like being able to run back-ups, but the fact that my system can be an all in one box and do everything is much more appealing than the free games.


...this is probably a good time to start looking into smartphones.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Sterling said:


> I still have an iPlayer. It does what it needs to do and sits in an unused box near my bed as I can't sleep without it.
> 
> My take on homebrew enabled systems is that piracy is a side effect and not the main draw. I like being able to run back-ups, but the fact that my system can be an all in one box and do everything is much more appealing than the free games.


 
Unfortunately, not everyone will see homebrew that way, some are hard set on thinking that homebrew is strictly for piracy and not legit reasons.


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## DinohScene (May 7, 2013)

Sterling said:


> My take on homebrew enabled systems is that piracy is a side effect and not the main draw. I like being able to run back-ups, but the fact that my system can be an all in one box and do everything is much more appealing than the free games.


 
Exactly that for me to.
I play pirated games yes.
However I also backup me own games (as odd as it may sound) I have every game I legitimately own on me RGH.
And I take me RGH to me mates.
It's convenient.

And yeh, I also like to do more then just play games and having forced advertisements and worthless "apps" shoved in me face all day. 
Since the 360 hardly has any homebrew, it still has some neato things like setting your own bootscreen, custom dashboards, NAND backup tools, game modding (Debug menu in Dead Island) etc.


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## Sterling (May 7, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> ...this is probably a good time to start looking into smartphones.


I can't drop a console like I can a smart phone. I fart above a certain decibel level and my screen cracks... joking by the way. Anyway, like you said earlier in the thread, most smart phones are actually bogged down by their os, and I'm not paying a premium for a device that is likely to break if I sneeze on it.


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## Foxi4 (May 7, 2013)

Sterling said:


> I can't drop a console like I can a smart phone. I fart above a certain decibel level and my screen cracks... joking by the way. Anyway, like you said earlier in the thread, most smart phones are actually bogged down by their os, and I'm not paying a premium for a device that is likely to break if I sneeze on it.


Oh, there are quite a few _"heavy duty"_ smartphones out there, you just need to know where to look and how to take care of one. I mean, I bought a Mio A701 back in high school _(that was like... before the whole iPhone craze properly started)_ and it's fully functional, still. Well, the battery's crap since it's been charged a zillion times and one of the buttons doesn't work because I superglued it _(one of those days the central joypad just fell out due to wear and tear... damn emulators! Now the "left" button doesn't work... Damn glue! Totally not my fault! ) _but other than that, the phone's fine and you can practically throw this brick around no problemo.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Sterling said:


> I can't drop a console like I can a smart phone. I fart above a certain decibel level and my screen cracks... joking by the way. Anyway, like you said earlier in the thread, most smart phones are actually bogged down by their os, and I'm not paying a premium for a device that is likely to break if I sneeze on it.


 
This, QFMFT. My only beef for smart phones (aside from being overpriced) is that many ported emulators usually aren't as great as those ported to consoles. Snes9x is a great example; the Wii port is based off of 1.52, which means better emulation overall and now with RetroArch, most, if not all games run at full speed with little sacrifice. Snes9x on mobile devices however, are based on the ancient 1.43 or 1.51, and therefore are crippled emulation-wise. Watered-down emulators? Sign me up! Whenever the Wii U is hacked publicly, we can see emulators that are played on the screen, region lock removal among other things. It's gonna happen, even if Marcan decides not to, someone else will.


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## Sterling (May 7, 2013)

I'm exceptionally careful with my electronics, but shit still happens and those heavy dooty phones don't do what I want them to.


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## rich333 (May 7, 2013)

I can see his point - what's really that exciting? HD media player & emulators would be handy, but nothing really groundbreaking...

I guess if more games were released it would maybe give the scene a bit of inspiration for homebrew.

Although I was hoping some devs would find a way to play existing GC & Wii games in HD - rather than having to wait for Nintendo to re-release a special WiiU version, if at all. (Hopefully that is a challenge enough to see something released).


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

rich333 said:


> I can see his point - what's really that exciting? HD media player & emulators would be handy, but nothing really groundbreaking...
> 
> I guess if more games were released it would maybe give the scene a bit of inspiration for homebrew.
> 
> Although I was hoping some devs would find a way to play existing GC & Wii games in HD - rather than having to wait for Nintendo to re-release a special WiiU version, if at all. (Hopefully that is a challenge enough to see something released).


 
I doubt the Wii U can run games in HD, as that would require a beefier multi-core CPU and potent GPU to do so. Can't say they shouldn't try, but Wind Waker isn't a direct port, but a remake. I just want region lock/DRM removal and emulators on the game pad. We could ask him the same thing, what's something a mobile device can do that the Wii U can't?


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## WiiUBricker (May 7, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> As soon as you become world-renowned scene hackers, yes.


World-renowned? I think not even geohot comes close. Ask people in the street who marcan is and they will gtfo you.


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## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

Here it is http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.html

fail0verflow
when success just isn't an option
Home
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Mon, 06 May 2013

The future of console homebrew (and a shot of Espresso)
Wed, 23 Jan 2013

Megafail
Wed, 02 Jan 2013

Clarification
Mon, 06 May 2013
The future of console homebrew (and a shot of Espresso)

By marcan 
Filed under blog wiiu

It’s been almost 7 years since the Wii was released. Back in 2006, not many owned a living room PC. PCs were still relatively bulky, and the Chinese offerings were limited to horrible media players. At the time, the prospect of having a game console double as a HTPC and being able to browse the web, play games for older platforms with emulation, and run homebrew games on a device which you already had in the living room was rather appealing.

Fast forward to today. Mobile SoCs have made huge advances - you can get a quad-core chip in a phone these days - and have made the jump to the living room. Spend $25 and you can get a Raspberry Pi, which is about on par with the Wii at 1/10 of the launch price and 1/7th of the power consumption (with HD video). Spend $100 and you can get an Ouya, which beats the WiiU’s CPU and doesn’t have too shabby graphics at one third the cost. These mobile-derived devices aren’t quite a replacement for game consoles yet, but they’re catching up fast. They’re cheap enough that they’re almost disposable. The software ecosystem is much larger and wider than any console has ever had. More importantly, they’re open, and the development tools and environments are way better for open development than any game console ever was.

The Wii U isn’t a particularly interesting device. It has the same old Wii CPU, times three. The GPU is a standard, and somewhat outdated Radeon core. The peripherals hardware is standard - SD, USB, SATA, WiFi, etc. The Wii hardware has been either kept as-is or replaced with compatibility shims. The only interesting bit is the controller, but there is already significant work underway to be able to use it with a PC (all you need is a wireless card capable of 5GHz 802.11n AP mode and special software). Even on the Wii U itself, the gamepad is managed by an independent Broadcom SoC that has its own firmware and communicates with the rest of the system via bog-standard USB and one of the video output heads on the Radeon.

The same goes, by the way, for the Xbox Durango and the Playstation Orbis. They’re both glorified PCs. With Valve’s Steam Box coming up, there will be little advantage to either of the first consoles other than potentially new input devices and exclusive games. And the Steam Box will almost certainly be hackable with trivial to no effort.

So where does that leave us? When the Wii U came out, our hacker instincts kicked in and we started looking into ways of breaking into the hardware. A few days before launch we had a firmware update scraper going. Over the next 30 days, we reached most of the milestones required to be able to say that we hacked the device; without going into details, there is basically no security left to break into, other than a mostly unimportant step of the boot process. What would remain is the tedious work of developing the open frameworks required to bootstrap a homebrew community, document everything, reverse engineer all of the new hardware, develop a persistent exploit (think tethered vs. untethered iPhone jailbreak, except without any extra hardware or cables), and package it all up.

Over the next few months, interest faded. I took a break to work on other projects. There wasn’t much of a reaction from the Wii homebrew community. Is it really worth going through all that effort when we already have open devices that are affordable and widely available? About 31 trustworthy people, most of them well-known people in the homebrew community, have access to what we developed, yet nobody stepped up to start working on a homebrew platform for the Wii U.

At the same time, there is an eternal clash between the homebrew community and those interested in pirating games. Writing homebrew software and frameworks is rather difficult - it requires new code to be written to support the hardware, which must be reverse engineered first. Convincing a game console to load copied games is comparatively simpler, as only the bare minimum amount of code patches required to convince the game/OS to load the game from alternate storage media are required. For example, on the PS3, the kernel payload of the first game loaders was a tiny system call patch, and I wrote an (unreleased) Wii USB loader using existing homebrew frameworks in a couple hundred lines of code, as a proof of concept. Every console after the PS2 was initially broken to run open homebrew code, and only later did piracy show up (excluding disc-drive-based hacks, which I consider a different category).

I think we may have reached the point where homebrew on closed game consoles is no longer appealing. The effort required to develop and maintain an environment for a big, complex modern game console is huge. The cat and mouse game with the manufacturer requires ongoing effort. There is a very real threat of litigation. Game pirates would become not just a big user of the result of those efforts, efforts, but by far the overwhelming majority (not because there are more pirates, but because there are fewer homebrewers). The fact that the Wii U isn’t selling nearly as well as the Wii did doesn’t help drive enthusiasm either.

I could be wrong, of course. Maybe it’s just that I have a full-time job now and less of a chance to spend all-nighters staring at assembly code. Maybe there are tons of prospective Wii U homebrew developers quietly waiting in the sidelines for a release. Maybe we’ve just gotten lazy.

We could just release everything as-is, of course. However, we tried that with the PS3, and the results were not only disappointing, but we actually ended up in an undeserved legal mess. Homebrew for the PS3 is basically nonexistent, and all anyone cares about is piracy. This is not a situation which we want to see happen again.

So, instead, we can go for a compromise. Our original idea for Wii U homebrew was to “escape” from the Wii mode sandbox and enable the new Wii U hardware. This appeared possible initially, but unfortunately, it turned out that a few critical hardware registers were irreversibly disabled in Wii mode. However, due to the design of the Wii U’s architecture, a few things can be re-enabled. One of those is the multicore support of the Espresso CPU.

On the Wii, the Broadway CPU had no built-in security: games ran on the bare metal and the Starlet handled all security. The Starlet was responsible for kickstarting the Broadway and feeding it code to run. The Wii U extends this architecture by putting some extra security inside the Espresso CPU: now, the Espresso has its own secure boot ROM, like the Starbuck, and will only boot a signed and encrypted code package. This package (which we call an ancast image) is delivered by the Starbuck and verified and decrypted when the Espresso is reset.

This happens in Wii mode too. However, Wii mode software knows nothing of this mechanism. Nintendo worked around this by transparently replacing the NANDloader (which is usually the first code that runs on the Broadway when it boots) with a modified version, encrypted and signed using the new format. The Starbuck (running vWii IOS) loads the new NANDLoader to RAM as it normally would, but when the Espresso is reset, it instead runs its boot ROM. The ROM decrypts the NANDLoader in-place and verifies it against its hardcoded ECDSA public key. If the verification succeeds, it jumps to its entrypoint. The very first thing that the NANDLoader does is turn off the Espresso features and put it into Wii compatibility mode. The new NANDLoader is stored in dedicated vWii mode titles 1-200 and 1-201 (there are two variants, but 1-200 is equivalent to the “normal” NANDLoader).

Incidentally, for vWii mode, we made a minor tweak to HBC so that its binary can both be loaded standalone as was the case on the Wii, and also works together with a NANDloader - this means we can use the same binary for both platforms, and we don’t have to ship a separate NANDloader that would be replaced in vWii mode.

Thankfully, even though the Espresso has ROM security now, unlike the Starlet/Starbuck, it has no memory firewall or similar protection (i.e. AHBPROT). This means that we are free to mess with the contents of memory while the Espresso boots. We can perform a completely trivial and reliable race attack and gain control before the NANDloader has a chance to disable anything. Here’s how. You will have to be able to run code on the Starlet: you can either use Mini or hotpatch IOS using the AHBPROT feature of HBC.

Load the NANDloader to RAM (it is a standard DOL binary and should be loaded as indicated in its header). Note that you’ll have to gain access to 1-200 or 1-201 for this. Don’t bundle it in your app; that would not be redistributable and wrong. Instead, read it from NAND directly (mini), or patch IOS to let you access it, or use the existing title boot functionality in IOS (that already loads the NANDloader from 1-200) and just patch the part where the PPC is reset (see below).

Perform the standard PowerPC reset sequence (this is Mini code, see hollywood.h for the constants):

clear32(HW_RESETS, 0x30);
udelay(100);
set32(HW_RESETS, 0x20);
udelay(100);
set32(HW_RESETS, 0x10);
Note that it is not necessary to load any EXI bootstrap code, as the Espresso always boots from ROM.

Immediately start watching memory location 0x1330100 (0x81330100). Make sure to either use an uncached mapping or invalidate the cache every time. You may need to perform an ahb_flush_from(AHB_1) every time to make sure the AHB buffers don’t bite you. Look for a change in the data at that address: it is the first instruction of the NANDloader, and the ROM will start decrypting there. Verification happens simultaneously with decryption.

Replace the (now decrypted) instruction at that address with a jump to your own PowerPC code. Make sure to flush if not using an uncached mapping. The timing is pretty lenient here; the ROM is busy decrypting and verifying the rest of the NANDloader at this point, so you have plenty of time to detect and swap the instruction before the ROM jumps to it.

Congratulations, you are now running Espresso code.

To be able to use the extra cores, you will have to initialize them. There are also a number of settings related to the bus and memory coherency. Some of these may not be applicable to Wii mode, so you will have to experiment. These are the important steps (in pseudo-C), reverse engineered from the early initialization code of the Cafe OS (Wii U mode) kernel (this runs initially for core0, and then every other core also runs this code as it is bootstrapped):

hid5 |= 0xc0000000;  // enable HID5 and PIR
// At this point, upir contains the core ID (0, 1, 2) that is currently
// executing.

// Global init
if (upir == 0) {
    scr &= ~0x40000000; // scr, car, and bcr are global SPRs
    scr |= 0x80000000;
    car |= 0xfc100000; // these bit assignments are unknown
    bcr |= 0x08000000;
}

// Per-core init
// these registers and bits already exist in Broadway
hid0 = 0x110024; // enable BHT, BTIC, NHR, DPM
hid2 = 0xf0000; // enable cache and DMA errors
hid4 = 0xb3b00000; // 64B fetch, depth 4, SBE, ST0, LPE, L2MUM, L2CFI
// HID5 is new and unknown, probably mostly controls coherency and the
// new L2 and core interface units
if(pvr & 0xFFFF == 0x101)
    hid5 |= 0x6FBD4300;
else
    hid5 |= 0x6FFDC000;
hid2 |= 0xe0000000; // LSQE, WPE, PSE
msr |= 0x2000; // enable floating point
// boring floating point reg, TB, decrementer, mmu init omitted
hid0 |= 0xc00; // flash invalidate ICache, DCache
hid0 &= ~0x100000; // disable DPM
l2cr = new_l2cr = 0
if (pvr & 0xffff == 0x100)
    new_l2cr |= 0x8;
hid5 |= 0x01000000;
if (core == 1)
    new_l2cr |= 0x20000000; // probably has something to do with the
                            // extra L2 for core1
l2cr = new_l2cr;
new_l2cr |= 0x200000; // L2 global invalidate
l2cr = new_l2cr;
while (l2cr & 1); // wait for global invalidate to finish
l2cr &= 0x200000; // clear L2 invalidate
l2cr |= 0x80000000; // L2 enable
hid0 |= 0x100000; // enable DPM
hid0 |= 0xc000; // enable DCache+ICache
// optional: enable locked L1 cache as usual
// boring standard GPR init omitted

// Core is now initialized. Check core ID (upir) and jump to wherever
// you want, set a flag for the main core, spin in a loop waiting for
// a vector, or whatever

// To kickstart the other cores (from core 0):
// core 1
scr |= 0x00200000;
// (wait for some flag set from core 1 when initialized)
// core 2
scr |= 0x00400000;
// (wait for some flag set from core 2 when initialized)

// Note: the Cafe OS kernel actually then uses core 2 as the main core
// after starting all three. This is probably unimportant.
Note that cores 1 and 2 will start at the system reset vector, which should jump to code equivalent to the above. It is currently unclear what controls whether the cores end up with MSR[IP]=1 (high vectors) or MSR[IP]=0 (low vectors), but I’m pretty sure that at least in Wii mode you end up booting with IP=0 by default (vector 0x100 in MEM1), although one of the above settings might change that. Experiment. Just flipping the two boot bits in SCR is enough to get the two other cores up without doing anything else, although coherency will probably be broken/disabled. Also, keep in mind that this trick gets you access to all 3 cores but they still run at the old Wii speed (729MHz). Speeding up the Espresso probably requires full access to Wii U mode.

The important SPRs are these:

dec   hex    name
287   0x11f  pvr
920   0x398  hid2
944   0x3b0  hid5
947   0x3b3  scr
948   0x3b4  car
949   0x3b5  bcr
1007  0x3ef  upir
1008  0x3f0  hid0
1009  0x3f1  hid1
1011  0x3f3  hid4
1017  0x3f9  l2cr
So what can you do with this? Well, libogc is probably near impossible to turn into an SMP-capable scheduler (and there are so many other problems with it that trying to keep using it for Wii U mode would be a terrible plan). However, it should be possible to port Linux to have tri-core support on the Wii U. It might also be possible to use the two extra cores in libogc apps purely for number crunching, with carefully designed locking (outside of libogc) and without calling any libogc functions from the other two cores (or any non-reentrant libc functions). Personally, I’d like to see a Linux port taking advantage of this (using Linux was my initial goal in Wii U mode, though I never got around to starting the port). Linux is the ideal choice for Wii U mode, as it has native drivers for most of the remaining hardware, and most importantly, it should be a lot easier to port the existing open source Radeon drivers to work on the Latte than to write one from scratch. The Wii U has tons of RAM, unlike the Wii, and natively runs a multitasking OS with paging and memory protection anyway, so there’s little advantage to not just using Linux.

Getting multicore support into some kind of homebrew platform is one of the many steps required to get to a Wii U homebrew ecosystem, so consider this a test to gauge the interest of the homebrew community. If there ends up being significant interest and progress is made, we will reconsider working towards a Wii U-mode homebrew ecosystem (or perhaps just pass on what we have to those who are more motivated than we are).

One final note: on the Espresso, the exclusive load and store instructions (lwarx and stwcx) are subtly broken and need a workaround. If you are seriously interested in this, and you have started working on it, ping me on IRC and I’ll let you know about the specific workaround that is required (I’m just too lazy to write it all out right now) and also gladly answer any other questions.

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© fail0verflow, all rights reserved. Not a member of the Cheezburger© Group.


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## Patxinco (May 7, 2013)

He can do what he wants, it is his work, the releasing of an exploit or not has nothing to do with my opinion of buying or not a WiiU. If I'm buying a console, I'm doing it for those games I REALLY want to play (and pay, for sure).
If he finished exploiting and is saying he won't release anything due the piracy or the lack of desire to make a new library for a dead homebrew console (in his opinion), can he move forward and go to another platform, like, for example, 3DS and just release a region block remove patch? (if he can)
I think a lot of people will be grateful to him for that, and it'll be more money going around all the world, well, IMHO.

Sorry for my bad English, I tried my best, and being almost 3 am doesn't help.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> Here it is http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.html
> 
> fail0verflow
> when success just isn't an option
> ...


 
tl;dr is this good news. Sorry, I only got 4.5 hours of sleep 



Patxinco said:


> He can do what he wants, it is his work, the releasing of an exploit or not has nothing to do with my opinion of buying or not a WiiU. If I'm buying a console, I'm doing it for those games I REALLY want to play (and pay, for sure).
> If he finished exploiting and is saying he won't release anything due the piracy or the lack of desire to make a new library for a dead homebrew console (in his opinion), can he move forward and go to another platform, like, for example, 3DS and just release a region block remove patch? (if he can)
> I think a lot of people will be grateful to him for that, and it'll be more money going around all the world, well, IMHO.
> 
> Sorry for my bad English, I tried my best, and being almost 3 am doesn't help.


No one is arguing that he has his opinion, many are just confused at his reasoning; if he's entitled to his opinions, we are entitled to ours.


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## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

I stayed clear but have read all along.  Did not see this.  Probably rydian, sifjar et al have seen this.  Link on for Twitter and Marcan twitter as well.


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## Snailface (May 7, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.htmlhttp://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.html


So its a kinda 'half-hack' to test the community*. Things are looking up. 

Looking forward to some fast emulators.



Spoiler: *   



And, unfortunately, don't be surprised if N's lawyers become part of the interested community.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Snailface said:


> So its a kinda 'half-hack' to test the community*. Things are looking up.
> 
> Looking forward to some fast emulators.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, reading it right now. Guess there is a glimmer of hope. I'll be damned.

http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.html


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## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

Now, everyone has a chance, and the hole/entry is given.  I saw other stuff, reversed stuff, but cannot recall terms.  Some in logs Marcan posted.  He did not need to do this but I, personally eat my words.  Edited posts before, yesterday.  Expected flaming worse than others received but had to share link.  Copy/pasted it "Just because.". Out I go again.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

This information has GOT to spread like wildfire! The more attention and interest, the better.


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## mysticwaterfall (May 7, 2013)

So, now everybody that complained, Marcan has listened and given the chance for possibly greatly enhanced homebrew. The extra memory alone is very exciting, to say nothing of multicore. Sounds like it will take a lot of work,  but if nothing comes of it, well, you can't say he didn't compromise.  Frankly, I'm surprised he posted as much as he did. Fascinating stuff really.


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## Walker D (May 7, 2013)

So, the wildness may start..


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## Maxternal (May 7, 2013)

I was skimming through this thread having at least gotten hope that the Wii U could use all 3 cores from Wii mode ... and then I get to this nice little link where Marcan basically actually explains how to get back into Wii U mode. Very nice. I'm only like half way through reading this but it's some very juicy info here.

EDIT (as long as Nintendo doesn't just read through that and say "oh, silly Marcan, we can patch that completely ... watch this ..." and screw us all over. I'm hopeful anyhow.)


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

mysticwaterfall said:


> So, now everybody that complained, Marcan has listened and given the chance for possibly greatly enhanced homebrew. The extra memory alone is very exciting, to say nothing of multicore. Sounds like it will take a lot of work, but if nothing comes of it, well, you can't say he didn't compromise. Frankly, I'm surprised he posted as much as he did. Fascinating stuff really.


 
Well, I was surprised too, suffice to say, now I really want to help somehow, I just don't know where to begin. Extra system memory, multi-core support, the potential for powerful apps is pretty big to say the least. We need to spread this information to other parts of the forum ASAP.


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## mysticwaterfall (May 7, 2013)

The best thing people who lack sufficent coding ability to implement the hacks can do (so in other words, the vast majority of the forum, myself included) is to be patient and supportive of those who do. It will probably take sometime to implement these techniques into actual practice.


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## mechadylan (May 7, 2013)

Wow, he doesn't care for the Ouya either.  Seems like an alright chap to me.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

mysticwaterfall said:


> The best thing people who lack sufficent coding ability to implement the hacks can do (so in other words, the vast majority of the forum, myself included) is to be patient and supportive of those who do. It will probably take sometime to implement these techniques into actual practice.


 
Sounds good to me, I'll definitely strive to do just that . Anything to boost overall morale. 

I already sent a thank you comment on the fail overflow page.



mechadylan said:


> Wow, he doesn't care for the Ouya either. Seems like an alright chap to me.


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## Maxternal (May 7, 2013)

Finished reading through it all and, WOW, I've been kinda wanting to get a Wii U since it was announced. If I wasn't so poor I'd go out and get one right now to try this thing out.

I'm kinda curious, though, about what actually happens when you EXIT a program after setting the processor half into Espresso mode. I wonder if the normal system calls to get back to the vWii system menu would make the system menu crash on you and you'd have to do a full power down and restart again or what.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Maxternal said:


> Finished reading through it all and, WOW, I've been kinda wanting to get a Wii U since it was announced. If I wasn't so poor I'd go out and get one right now to try this thing out.
> 
> I'm kinda curious, though, about what actually happens when you EXIT a program after setting the processor half into Espresso mode. I wonder if the normal system calls to get back to the vWii system menu would make the system menu crash on you and you'd have to do a full power down and restart again or what.


 
Their knowledge of the system is unmatched, that's for sure, but the funny thing is, I actually understood most of what he said, even though I know people who would go "lolwut?" when reading it. It's essentially a foreign language to many. Again, they've done (and still are doing) remarkable work.


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## PityOnU (May 7, 2013)

I am actually very much enjoying the fact that "the scene" - or whatever the hell it's called nowadays - is being discrete and withholding any hacks for the time being. Especially with the 3DS and WiiU. I think that the systems should be given time to get off of the ground first and move some units so all of the people who put blood, sweat, and tears into the products can be rewarded for it.

Maybe 3-4 years from now when everyone has one and is bored of it, start releasing the hacks then. Most people will already have an extensive game library and would benefit from the ability to take backups with them instead of the games themselves. It would also regenerate some interest in the console and its titles.

Just not now. It is still WAY too soon. Any work will just be exploited by idiots who will then screw themselves out of any decent games on the console by pirating it all to hell.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

PityOnU said:


> *pointless tirade*


 
This news means that all is not lost


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## pokefloote (May 7, 2013)

I agree, let it stay the way it is. All this whining is just proving their words about GBAtemp were right.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

pokefloote said:


> I agree, let it stay the way it is. All this whining is just proving their words about GBAtemp were right.


 
Marcan just made a lengthy post about the HBC for the Wii U and how the possibility is there should there be enough interest and I have no doubt there will be.


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## PityOnU (May 7, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Way to ruin the mood. This news means that all is not lost, you clearly didn't read that fail overflow post did you?


 
I'm not really sure what hope you are referring to. Hope that the console can be hacked? Anything can be hacked, it's just a matter of time. Both the 3DS and the WiiU were probably hacked within the first few weeks they were out, if not faster.

Building the development tools required to do anything constructive with said hacks, however, is something else entirely. I believe Marcan is entirely correct when he says that it isn't happening because there just isn't enough interest. The WiiU is clearly a giant pain in the ass to work with - just look at all of the delays that have been plaguing Nintendo's releases of late. And they built the damn thing.

It honestly makes me wonder how these guys who are obviously extremely skilled have any time at all to do stuff like this. With those kind of skills they could be off making boatloads of money. Why write code for free so that strangers on the internet can steal games? I'm not certain.

I very grateful for it when it does happen, though


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

PityOnU said:


> I'm not really sure what hope you are referring to. Hope that the console can be hacked? Anything can be hacked, it's just a matter of time. Both the 3DS and the WiiU were probably hacked within the first few weeks they were out, if not faster.
> 
> Building the development tools required to do anything constructive with said hacks, however, is something else entirely. I believe Marcan is entirely correct when he says that it isn't happening because there just isn't enough interest. The WiiU is clearly a giant pain in the ass to work with - just look at all of the delays that have been plaguing Nintendo's releases of late. And they built the damn thing.
> 
> ...


 
I was mostly referring to the compromised Marcan stated that if there were to be more interest, that would help them reconsider and start coding another HBC.


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## Walker D (May 7, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> You too? Marcan just made a lengthy post about the HBC for the Wii U and how the possibility is there should there be enough interest and I have no doubt there will be. Many like to pirate, there's no denying that, but not everyone who has the HBC does. Don't kill the mood.


 
I'm pretty sure everybody here is exited by the homebrew possibilities, cause they are indeed cool ...that's not what he is worried with.

Allow people to have some different opinions ...they are the core of a healthy discussion


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## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

Let's see now.  I wanted this, but am a direction follower.  If I understood this, it is a hardware exploit.  My experience is those are hardest to stop.  360 revised mb; xenon, zephyr, falcon, trinity slim, corona, corona v2, sure I...opus.  Non HDMI.  Rgh, after JTAG, corona v2 read like ps3 super slim and also Wii eMMC.  

So, since secrets are coming out, has anyone looked at Wii U eMMC?  Reads like card reader.  Heard it is aes+hmac encrypted.  Curious, simple yes/no would be cool.  I imagine that is "The nuts" so nobody can say (definitely opens piracy).


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## Coto (May 7, 2013)

PityOnU said:


> I am actually very much enjoying the fact that "the scene" - or whatever the hell it's called nowadays - is being discrete and withholding any hacks for the time being. Especially with the 3DS and WiiU. I think that the systems should be given time to get off of the ground first and move some units so all of the people who put blood, sweat, and tears into the products can be rewarded for it.
> 
> Maybe 3-4 years from now when everyone has one and is bored of it, start releasing the hacks then. Most people will already have an extensive game library and would benefit from the ability to take backups with them instead of the games themselves. It would also regenerate some interest in the console and its titles.
> 
> Just not now. It is still WAY too soon. Any work will just be exploited by idiots who will then screw themselves out of any decent games on the console by pirating it all to hell.


 
Agreed..

nice to know that assembler gains complete machine access, even if any feature on the cpu, or microcode keeps using one resource


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## The Milkman (May 7, 2013)

Man, we seem to have quite the bad rep among hackers :/


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Coto said:


> Agreed..
> 
> nice to know that assembler gains complete machine access, even if any feature on the cpu, or microcode keeps using one resource


 
It's crazy what people can do with assembly 



The Milkman said:


> Man, we seem to have quite the bad rep among hackers :/


How do you mean? I think with a little effort, we can change said rep.


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## Thomas83Lin (May 7, 2013)

The whining is apparently working.  Keep up the pressure


the_randomizer said:


> I was mostly referring to the compromised Marcan stated that if there were to be more interest, that would help them reconsider and start coding another HBC.


Does whining = interest  if so we'll have a new hbc in no time.


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Thomas83Lin said:


> The whining is apparently working. Keep up the pressure
> 
> Does whining = interest  if so we'll have a new hbc in no time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8u7px_GzWQ


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## Walker D (May 7, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> How do you mean? I think with a little effort, we can change said rep.


 
I think the rep that we got is of Noobs and Drama Queens..

don't know how easy would be to change that...     ....well, maybe taking some gasoline and fire to some users houses would help


----------



## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Walker D said:


> I think the rep that we got is of Noobs and Drama Queens..
> 
> don't know how easy would be to change that... ....well, maybe taking some gasoline and fire to some users houses would help


 
Well I do have a can of gasoline in my apartment....


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## Jiro2 (May 7, 2013)

The partial hack is a bad idea:
-- Any developer who uses it is using it in the knowledge that his homebrew can be made obsolete at any time by the release of a full hack.  Furthermore, the more his homebrew succeeds, the greater the chances the full hack will be released, which means anyone successful is more likely to obsolete themselves.
-- Releasing a partial hack may be enough to induce Nintendo to sue in the hopes that they can prevent the full hack from being released.  If the cat's already out of the bag, Nintendo has less incentive to sue because the suit won't stop anything.
-- A partial hack is the homebrew equivalent of all those not-full-system development tools mentioned way back in post #34 (to which you can also add PS3 Linux before it was removed). 
-- Would it be easier to improve a Wii application by porting it to one core running faster or porting it to 3 cores running at Wii speed?  My uneducated guess is that the former is easier, which means that the barrier to getting something useful from the partial hack is greater than for getting something useful from a full hack.


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## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

Jiro2 said:


> The partial hack is a bad idea:
> -- Any developer who uses it is using it in the knowledge that his homebrew can be made obsolete at any time by the release of a full hack. Furthermore, the more his homebrew succeeds, the greater the chances the full hack will be released, which means anyone successful is more likely to obsolete themselves.
> -- Releasing a partial hack may be enough to induce Nintendo to sue in the hopes that they can prevent the full hack from being released. If the cat's already out of the bag, Nintendo has less incentive to sue because the suit won't stop anything.
> -- A partial hack is the homebrew equivalent of all those not-full-system development tools mentioned way back in post #34 (to which you can also add PS3 Linux before it was removed).
> -- Would it be easier to improve a Wii application by porting it to one core running faster or porting it to 3 cores running at Wii speed? My uneducated guess is that the former is easier, which means that the barrier to getting something useful from the partial hack is greater than for getting something useful from a full hack.


So what can you do to get something with the exploit released?  Everyone on here had ideas, but no skills that they speak of (not insulting anyone or intending to).


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> So what can you do to get something with the exploit released? Everyone on here had ideas, but no skills that they speak of (not insulting anyone or intending to).


 
I wish there was something I could do that would still help them in some way, like a fundraiser perhaps? Beta testing?


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## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> I wish there was something I could do that would still help them in some way, like a fundraiser perhaps? Beta testing?


It was only tonight but I am curious to know who is taking this up.  MAYBE an idea is to start then ask if help needed.  People may know parts.  I think Marcan mentioned helping if messaged regarding work for this.  Not to misquote him but I believe that was in his blog post.


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## Guild McCommunist (May 7, 2013)

So if I'm skimming correctly are people complaining about A) someone not liking the Wii U for legitimate reasons, B) a hacker/open source enthusiast thinking open source platforms are the future, or C) both?

God this site is just stuff


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> It was only tonight but I am curious to know who is taking this up. MAYBE an idea is to start then ask if help needed. People may know parts. I think Marcan mentioned helping if messaged regarding work for this. Not to misquote him but I believe that was in his blog post.


 

That sounds right to me.

"One final note: on the Espresso, the exclusive load and store instructions (lwarx and stwcx) are subtly broken and need a workaround. If you are seriously interested in this, and you have started working on it, ping me on IRC and I’ll let you know about the specific workaround that is required (I’m just too lazy to write it all out right now) and also gladly answer any other questions."

As he said in the last paragraph, so at this point, it's just a matter of people stepping forward. I believe we can pull this off, especially if there are people who can do odd and ends and bring them together.




Guild McCommunist said:


> So if I'm skimming correctly are people complaining about A) someone not liking the Wii U for legitimate reasons, B) a hacker/open source enthusiast thinking open source platforms are the future, or C) both?
> 
> God this site is just stuff


 

All the above


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## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

Pull som


Guild McCommunist said:


> So if I'm skimming correctly are people complaining about A) someone not liking the Wii U for legitimate reasons, B) a hacker/open source enthusiast thinking open source platforms are the future, or C) both?
> 
> God this site is just stuff


Pull some influence, put some hard core people on this, tell them they do it or get banned, then banned other places, SHAMED even, lmfao. Joking. MAYBE the gang of 31 made some progress and MAY share that now if we ask nicely?

Edit:  Watched "Ted" night before last.  Hilarious.  I picture somebody coming in like Flash Gordon, lmfao, "Flash....flash!!!  Savior of the universe."  Sorry, could not resist.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> Pull som
> 
> Pull some influence, put some hard core people on this, tell them they do it or get banned, then banned other places, SHAMED even, lmfao. Joking. MAYBE the gang of 31 made some progress and MAY share that now if we ask nicely?
> 
> Edit: Watched "Ted" night before last. Hilarious. I picture somebody coming in like Flash Gordon, lmfao, "Flash....flash!!! Savior of the universe." Sorry, could not resist.


 
I guess at this point, only time will tell.


----------



## Rydian (May 7, 2013)

mkdms14 said:


> Ok soo is he saying that console hacking is dead because it requires too much effort and does not yield enough results?  Does that mean this is the end for home-brew in general?


This is just talking about them.  Other people could come along and do the crap themselves if they wanted.  So far though, nobody has.



Hielkenator said:


> Fact is he doesn't know shit about what will happen if they would release the hack they presumably have for WiiU.
> It's all speculation.


They did it for the PS3, and they saw it happen for the 360.
So it's repeating history based on experience, not speculation.

Like, if I were to tell you that dropping a 100 pound ball on your head would kill you, it wouldn't be right of you to dismiss my advice as 'speculation'. 



The Milkman said:


> Man, we seem to have quite the bad rep among hackers :/


Just read this thread to see how many people went and insulted marcan even after he clarified why he didn't want to release his work.  Not to mention all the "I don't like this person's opinion therefore he thinks he's god because he's keeping his opinion anyways because if he was human he would change his opinion to match mine".


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## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Rydian said:


> This is just talking about them. Other people could come along and do the crap themselves if they wanted. So far though, nobody has.
> 
> They did it for the PS3, and they saw it happen for the 360.
> So it's repeating history based on experience, not speculation.
> ...


 
Yeah, there was some....unpleasantness granted, but, uh, let's leave the past in the past, shall we? I want to forget what happened there. I don't want to relive that.

I say we move on.


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## Drunk_caterpillar (May 7, 2013)

Ever since I started playing my Wii again in mid-2012 I've been blown away by how Homebrew has changed my experience with that console. There's nothing wrong with the base software per se, but between UBS Loader GX and Devolution the hardware is miles ahead of what it was on release day. I really cannot thank dedicated devs like @Cyan and @tueidj enough; my games load faster and look better, all while preserving the original discs and re-integrating features lost in the transition to new hardware. As a collector and an enthusiast I cannot describe how amazing these projects have been.

Which is why I am so profoundly bummed right now--not only by what Marcan is saying but also because this thread is unquestionably re-enforcing his choice to not continue developing solutions for modifying the Wii U. I really wish I could tell these guys how they've made legitimate users consoles better through their work. I just purchased a ZombiU Wii U bundle last week, and while I've been having fun I've also kept thinking "I wish I had the same level of control over my Wii U that I had with my Wii." Not only because I would love to install the game to my HDD, but because I felt so much more interested in gaming when I was able to shape the way I used my console. It's just a better experience and I am exceptionally grateful to these developers for giving it to me and literally asking nothing in return.


----------



## Hielkenator (May 7, 2013)

What bugs me is:
If Marcan doesn't have interest in hacking home consoles anymore, why bother to clarify and speculate what will happen in the future.
It seems he's living in the past and future, while "normal people live in the here and now.

Results from the past aren't guaranteed for the future.
Everybody knows that. Therefore he's speculating on what will happen or what the homebrew devs will develop.
Putting end users/ homebrewdevs/pirates in the same corner.
Not really fair and smells like "god"syndrom.
To put matter in contrast, look what homebrew did to Wii.

Thank you Rydian for posting this, it's a lot more clear now.
We probably wont get any homebrew because marcan doesn't think it's interesting enough.
And it doesn't contribute to the scene enough.
Fair enough.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Hielkenator said:


> What bugs me is:
> If Marcan doesn't have interest in hacking home consoles anymore, why bother to clarify and speculate what will happen in the future.
> It seems he's living in the past and future, while "normal people live in the here and now.
> 
> ...


 
Did you even read that blog post? There's still a chance.
http://gbatemp.net/threads/fail0verflow-updated-with-alot-of-new-info.347500/


Drunk_caterpillar said:


> Ever since I started playing my Wii again in mid-2012 I've been blown away by how Homebrew has changed my experience with that console. There's nothing wrong with the base software per se, but between UBS Loader GX and Devolution the hardware is miles ahead of what it was on release day. I really cannot thank dedicated devs like @Cyan and @tueidj enough; my games load faster and look better, all while preserving the original discs and re-integrating features lost in the transition to new hardware. As a collector and an enthusiast I cannot describe how amazing these projects have been.
> 
> Which is why I am so profoundly bummed right now--not only by what Marcan is saying but also because this thread is unquestionably re-enforcing his choice to not continue developing solutions for modifying the Wii U. I really wish I could tell these guys how they've made legitimate users consoles better through their work. I just purchased a ZombiU Wii U bundle last week, and while I've been having fun I've also kept thinking "I wish I had the same level of control over my Wii U that I had with my Wii." Not only because I would love to install the game to my HDD, but because I felt so much more interested in gaming when I was able to shape the way I used my console. It's just a better experience and I am exceptionally grateful to these developers for giving it to me and literally asking nothing in return.


http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.htm 

Did anyone read that blog post?


----------



## Rydian (May 7, 2013)

Hielkenator said:


> What bugs me is:
> If Marcan doesn't have interest in hacking home consoles anymore, why bother to clarify and speculate what will happen in the future.


Because of people who won't shut the fuck up about it and keep posting speculation and rumors.

See: the majority of posts in thread.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Because of people who won't shut the fuck up about it and keep posting speculation and rumors.
> 
> See: the majority of posts in thread.


 
http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.htm

'Nuff said. People need to let the animosity go. I'm taking his post with a grain of salt, nevertheless, it's still more hope than many assumed; this misinformation needs to stop. We need to learn from the past, but dwelling on it is a detriment. If you want me to elaborate, a PM might be best so I don't derail the thread....I mean again


----------



## BrightNeko (May 7, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> So if I'm skimming correctly are people complaining about A) someone not liking the Wii U for legitimate reasons, B) a hacker/open source enthusiast thinking open source platforms are the future, or C) both?
> 
> God this site is just stuff


 
Hey least you get material for shitGBAtempsays



Walker D said:


> I was thinking about that also ... but releasing something like that, wouldn't be enough of a gap for other people to use this new know-how/code to create some ways to pirate?
> Maybe even a small hack window would be enough for starting a hacking/pirating spree ....what this guys may not want..


 

Yeah but it is another side of the argument that isn't being tackled. From how I see it there are 5 ways it can be talked about, homebrew, piracy, imports, improving the system, and hacks. The main goal is to curve piracy because that is the most likely outcome of homebrew, but homebrew is the only good aspect being talked about. Seems kinda like tunnel vision to me, when we have 3 other aspects sitting their that are actually really cool things! Hey though no one cares about em I guess.


----------



## tickle.my.pickle (May 7, 2013)

how about the 3ds??


----------



## Veho (May 7, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> So if I'm skimming correctly are people complaining about A) someone not liking the Wii U for legitimate reasons, B) a hacker/open source enthusiast thinking open source platforms are the future, or C) both?


And D), "baww the lazy incompetent morons are making up excuses and rationalizations for their pitiful failure to hack the Wii U" (although that one may have been removed by the staff. You know the one.)


----------



## xist (May 7, 2013)

I say we take off and nuke the entire site thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.


----------



## Ericthegreat (May 7, 2013)

Veho said:


> And D), "baww the lazy incompetent morons are making up excuses and rationalizations for their pitiful failure to hack the Wii U" (although that one may have been removed by the staff. You know the one.)


And I suppose you hack the wii u everyday for breakfast right?


----------



## xist (May 7, 2013)

Ericthegreat said:


> And I suppose you hack the wii u everyday for breakfast right?



Veho's part of the solution...he hacks it before AND after breakfast. He just doesn't tell ANYBODY that he has so that people don't suddenly develop a false sense of entitlement.


----------



## Veho (May 7, 2013)

Ericthegreat said:


> And I suppose you hack the wii u everyday for breakfast right?


I was merely summarizing those sentiments voiced in the thread that Guild missed while skimming, that doesn't mean I agree with them. Does the word "sarcasm" mean anything to you?  

Yes. And twice on weekends. What's it to you?


----------



## pyromaniac123 (May 7, 2013)

I don't think marcan really gives a shit what members of gbatemp have to say.


----------



## mechadylan (May 7, 2013)

It's amazing to me that after 11 pages, no one has mentioned the fact that marcan was specifically named in the SCEA v. Hotz lawsuit.  Yes, I read where he was noted around page 3 or 4 with regards to the PS3 27c3 findings; but no one has ever addressed the cold hard fact that Hector Martín was (and probably still is) under constant scrutiny by the big 3 vg console makers; a scrutiny that he probably holds both as a badge of honour and a constant warning .

Where is your heart, GBATemp?  Were you seriously skimming the irc logs looking for a link to a .rar file on how to jailbreak your WiiU?  Did you ever once consider that marcan's IRL took a precedence over our monumental needs that he considers otherwise mundane?

If marcan says he hacked the WiiU, I believe him.  If he wants the feather in his cap for being the first to do so, I will acknowledge that as well.  I don't require a "Hello_World" or a timestamped pic with a sticky noted cell phone pic.  His words are sufficient and his credibility is substantiated by his overwhelming presence in this and other forums. 

The last I heard, the SCEA v. Hotz lawsuit was settled out of court.  There was speculation about the other parties named with regards to litigation (sven, grafchokolo, marcan, waninkoko, et al.)  I don't know what agreement these people ever came to, and I doubt that it will ever become public knowledge.  What I DO know is that there are still advancements in the homebrew scene at the same steadfast rate as previous consoles.  If the advancement seems slow, perhaps your internet connection is too fast; or maybe (just maybe,) we need to reinvest a little more time into the homebrew development scene that encouraged the breakthroughs that begat it.


----------



## chartube12 (May 7, 2013)

Well marcan has updated his blog. Wii-U's additional ram and such can be accessed in vitual_wii mode threw altering the HBC. 

http://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso.html


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 7, 2013)

Veho said:


> I was merely summarizing those sentiments voiced in the thread that Guild missed while skimming, that doesn't mean I agree with them. Does the word "sarcasm" mean anything to you?
> 
> Yes. And twice on weekends. What's it to you?


Killer rabbit and "The black knight" scenes were funnier than "Knights who say ni" but still funny to see that under your picture.  You have some goods to disclose?  You one of the 31?  Maybe somebody who just missed the cut...like 32, or 35 but good enough to be #16?  JOKING, hard to pick up if people were joking or you have skills.  I don't know everyone in this scene like I do within Android stuff (know OF them, lol).


----------



## OncleJulien (May 7, 2013)

pyromaniac123 said:


> I don't think marcan really gives a shit what members of gbatemp have to say.


nor should he...

something that's amusingly lost on some of the folks in here is that while everyone is entitled to their opinion, that doesn't therefore mean that all opinions are equal.


----------



## RedCoreZero (May 7, 2013)

jalaneme said:


> what a asswipe, i miss the golden hacking days of the xbox 1, ps2, ps1 e.t.c its such a shame that the scene has turned into this embarrassing mess, devs like this is the reason it took so long for the ps3 to be hacked, i laugh when people say the ps4 will be hacked, no it won't especially with dumb devs like this anyway, good thing i won't be buying any ps4 or net xbox then.
> 
> steam will overtake consoles is this guy serious? have you heard of exclusives smart guy? you know exclusives that nintendo and sony make? I'm sure you will be able to buy that on steam..... dumbass.



The fuck?PS4 is never going to get hacked?It can get hacked.Let me guess,you're just butt hurt because the Wii U is SHIT compared to PS4 PC and 720.You're probably just some fat ass Nintendo fanboy who doesn't play anything outside of shovelware and first party titles.

You never fail to leave shit on your posts.


----------



## RedCoreZero (May 7, 2013)

pyromaniac123 said:


> I don't think marcan really gives a shit what members of gbatemp have to say.



Why should he?


----------



## the_randomizer (May 7, 2013)

maniax300 said:


> The fuck?PS4 is never going to get hacked?It can get hacked.Let me guess,you're just butt hurt because the Wii U is SHIT compared to PS4 PC and 720.You're probably just some fat ass Nintendo fanboy who doesn't play anything outside of shovelware and first party titles.
> 
> You never fail to leave shit on your posts.


 
He can't help being a troll I guess. Must be a paid career.


----------



## Skelletonike (May 8, 2013)

maniax300 said:


> The fuck?PS4 is never going to get hacked?It can get hacked.Let me guess,you're just butt hurt because the *Wii U is SHIT* compared to PS4 PC and 720.You're probably just some fat ass Nintendo fanboy who doesn't play anything outside of shovelware and first party titles.
> 
> You never fail to leave shit on your posts.


That's all about opinions, specs wise it might be much crappier than the others, but alas, the Wii U has been released whereas the others haven't, so you can't actually say that the Wii U is shit in comparison.
The Wii U was crap graphics wise and still sold what it sold.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 8, 2013)

Interesting tidbit he just posted

"Update:

To clarify, this only yields access to the extra cores, not the extra RAM and the rest of the hardware. For that, you’ll need a Wii U mode exploit. We do have such an exploit, but right now I believe that, if it were released, there wouldn’t be enough developer interest to kickstart a healthy homebrew ecosystem; if e.g. a Linux port to vWii-mode Espresso is developed, I will gladly stand corrected (and such a Linux port would be directly applicable to Wii U mode, modulo a few minor memory mapping differences, so it’s not wasted effort)."


----------



## RedCoreZero (May 8, 2013)

Skelletonike said:


> That's all about opinions, specs wise it might be much crappier than the others, but alas, the Wii U has been released whereas the others haven't, so you can't actually say that the Wii U is shit in comparison.
> The Wii U was crap graphics wise and still sold what it sold.



I sold well, because it's Nintendo and their software.


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 8, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Interesting tidbit he just posted
> 
> "Update:
> 
> To clarify, this only yields access to the extra cores, not the extra RAM and the rest of the hardware. For that, you’ll need a Wii U mode exploit. We do have such an exploit, but right now I believe that, if it were released, there wouldn’t be enough developer interest to kickstart a healthy homebrew ecosystem; if e.g. a Linux port to vWii-mode Espresso is developed, I will gladly stand corrected (and such a Linux port would be directly applicable to Wii U mode, modulo a few minor memory mapping differences, so it’s not wasted effort)."


Yes, AND that was his starting point so clever ones, others with skills, COULD in theory use that hole to go further into the system.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 8, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> Yes, AND that was his starting point so clever ones, others with skills, COULD in theory use that hole to go further into the system.


 
Okay, now the tricky part, waiting for those willing to port Linux to step up and reveal themselves.  Linux is a very stable OS and given the right knowledge, a lot can be done with it.


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 8, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Okay, now the tricky part, waiting for those willing to port Linux to step up and reveal themselves. Linux is a very stable OS and given the right knowledge, a lot can be done with it.


Saw ramblings about linux being discussed.  Was there not linux for Wii?  I did not pay attention to it as HCB usually let me get anything I wanted/needed.  Forgot what that was called.  Yeah, the entry for it is there, so this could get interesting, lol.  It makes sense, the more I think of it.  Marcan gave a START for it all, then whatever people do from there is up to them, lol.  Fair, makes a lot of sense actually.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 8, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> Saw ramblings about linux being discussed. Was there not linux for Wii? I did not pay attention to it as HCB usually let me get anything I wanted/needed. Forgot what that was called. Yeah, the entry for it is there, so this could get interesting, lol. It makes sense, the more I think of it. Marcan gave a START for it all, then whatever people do from there is up to them, lol. Fair, makes a lot of sense actually.


 
And this whole time, many were blind (myself included) to the whole thing, the answer was so obvious and yet, it was obscured. Linux does make sense, and since the drivers don't have to be rewritten, that would make it even more appealing.


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 8, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> And this whole time, many were blind (myself included) to the whole thing, the answer was so obvious and yet, it was obscured. Linux does make sense, and since the drivers don't have to be rewritten, that would make it even more appealing.


Yes, linux over vWii, which is exactly what I was told before, lmfao.  LONGGGG time ago now.  As I said, there was some linux stuff I saw mentioned with the Wii.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 8, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> Yes, linux over vWii, which is exactly what I was told before, lmfao. LONGGGG time ago now. As I said, there was some linux stuff I saw mentioned with the Wii.


 
Another nice thing about Linux is that isn't very resource-intensive at all, seeing as it ran on the Wii and Gamecube (which only has 64 MB and 40 MB of total system RAM respectively), it can be done for sure. I need to learn how to program, I guess now is good as time as any. 

Regardless, Marcan and his team need all the support they can get.


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 8, 2013)

Looking at it wrong. F


the_randomizer said:


> Another nice thing about Linux is that isn't very resource-intensive at all, seeing as it ran on the Wii and Gamecube (which only has 64 MB and 40 MB of total system RAM respectively), it can be done for sure. I need to learn how to program, I guess now is good as time as any.
> 
> Regardless, Marcan and his team need all the support they can get.


Yeah, here it is: http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Wii-Linux

In looking at this, since vWii basically has a lot of the same stuff, I IMAGINE tweaking this may be an option. I am ignorant but I try. I would imagine using this is what people are going to try. In fact, since it can launch in HBC, trying in on vWii does? Then they mention another entry point that allows for full hardware access (on Wii). I would imagine, using what Marcan gave will basically allow that type of entry. Guessing here, so laugh and correct me if I am wrong.

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/DevkitPPC

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Libogc


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## the_randomizer (May 8, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> Looking at it wrong. F
> 
> Yeah, here it is: http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Wii-Linux
> 
> ...


 
I have nothing to correct, so we have some leads right there it seems, or what appears to be the very beginnings of Wii U homebrew, which I have no doubts will take off. I don't know what's going on, but I've a feeling something big is brewing....if you know what I mean.


----------



## Subtle Demise (May 8, 2013)

basically what this thread boils down to is that marcan is worse than the mafia


----------



## Walker D (May 8, 2013)

Subtle Demise said:


> basically what this thread boils down to is that marcan is worse than the mafia


meh ...that old pun :/
and respect the man..



the_randomizer said:


> I have nothing to correct, so we have some leads right there it seems, or what appears to be the very beginnings of Wii U homebrew, which I have no doubts will take off. I don't know what's going on, but I've a feeling something big is brewing....if you know what I mean.


Maybe I'm talking some nonsense, since I'm not a programer..  but wouldn't that smartphone optimized version of Ubuntu something that would run with less struggle on the WiiU, and with some new implementations, apps and stuff?
_this_ is what I'm talking about..


----------



## Maxternal (May 8, 2013)

What marcan has always seen as ideal was a linux port, even from the beginning with the wii. They developed the mini with the hopes of giving people the direct hardware access they needed for it but since everyone was already used to using libogc and the first linux ports using an IOS were so limited people didn't show much interest in using it while it was being ported to mini and THEN improved ... And that process was abandoned because of that same lack of public interest. By the time they discovered they could disable AHBPROT and just ignore the presence of either an IOS or the mini (which would have made a linux port a whole lot easier) it was too late to arouse public interest in redoing linux.

Because of AHBPROT, though, it would now be easier than ever to just port over linux with direct hardware access and if you wanted to make a single port for both old wii and vwii, just having one use 3 cores and the other use 1. On the other hand, if you wanted to deal with a only vWii approach, you could maybe skip the backwards compatibility way of communicating with them and just use the drivers that he says are already available to you.

Either was he was looking at it, though, be it just starting in vWii and breaking out every time you wanted more power (plan A?) or a linux port (plan B?) I assume he hoped that would keep people far enough away from the environment the games actually run in to prevent his work from being used for piracy.


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 8, 2013)

Interesting to see, I believe this came up on Marcan's chat log



Maxternal said:


> What marcan has always seen as ideal was a linux port, even from the beginning with the wii. They developed the mini with the hopes of giving people the direct hardware access they needed for it but since everyone was already used to using libogc and the first linux ports using an IOS were so limited people didn't show much interest in using it while it was being ported to mini and THEN improved ... And that process was abandoned because of that same lack of public interest. By the time they discovered they could disable AHBPROT and just ignore the presence of either an IOS or the mini (which would have made a linux port a whole lot easier) it was too late to arouse public interest in redoing linux.
> 
> Because of AHBPROT, though, it would now be easier than ever to just port over linux with direct hardware access and if you wanted to make a single port for both old wii and vwii, just having one use 3 cores and the other use 1. On the other hand, if you wanted to deal with a only vWii approach, you could maybe skip the backwards compatibility way of communicating with them and just use the drivers that he says are already available to you.
> 
> Either was he was looking at it, though, be it just starting in vWii and breaking out every time you wanted more power (plan A?) or a linux port (plan B?) I assume he hoped that would keep people far enough away from the environment the games actually run in to prevent his work from being used for piracy.


Yes...but piracy appears to be here anyway.  I doubt it is a ploy as some believe.  I am thinking somebody will likely try to use what Marcan gave and go for the rest.  3 cores is something but no GPU access on Wii U side?  Is the screen people want to use only available with entire GPU unlocked?  Given what is put out and about to be sold, I think a full Wii U mode unlock saves time effort, and gives processors at full speed...GPU, etc.  

As I believe Marcan, I hope others get gold.  There are some very clever people out there.  Measuring commitment of devs is understandable.  I did read the rest that was made public.  So if somebody else officially "finds" Wii mode info, lol, not from Marcan;-). Doubtful, but to prevent piracy...yet it is out?


----------



## Coto (May 8, 2013)

the sys PLL (multiplier smd) was known on Wii to reach 10x (1010), but locked to 3x (0011). the thing is, where, does the PLL need to be altered to change the clock frequency correctly.. if the PLL is inside the CPU, we're SOL


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 8, 2013)

Coto said:


> the sys PLL (multiplier smd) was known on Wii to reach 10x (1010), but locked to 3x (0011). the thing is, where, does the PLL need to be altered to change the clock frequency correctly.. if the PLL is inside the CPU, we're SOL


Marcan mentioned a work-around for something BUT I do recall reading in the comments of his blog (see links around here) that something he tried did not increase the clock.  If this the type of thing you are referring to?


----------



## the_randomizer (May 8, 2013)

Subtle Demise said:


> basically what this thread boils down to is that marcan is worse than the mafia


 
No, you're mistaken, you're thinking of EA or Sony.  The man knows more about Wii/Wii U hardware than you could possible know.


----------



## lenselijer (May 8, 2013)

Marcan is a big troll.



> yeah, at this stage with Steam on Linux and Android, I'm having a hard time seeing that big a future for traditional consoles


 
OK, I want to play a new game on linux, tell me how?
Android? I want to play Carmageddon, oh? its not out yet.

great platforms


----------



## the_randomizer (May 8, 2013)

lenselijer said:


> Marcan is a big troll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
So am I, but you don't hear me bragging about it...oh wait.



Spoiler



Give the man some credit, he knows a lot. He has his reasons, and we need to respect it. Wii U is not ruled out, someone will hack it if he doesn't


----------



## Snailface (May 9, 2013)

lenselijer said:


> Marcan is a big troll.
> --other stuff


What kind of a troll writes something like this:
http://marcansoft.com/blog/2011/01/safe-hacking/#more-275

I can't think of a hacker with more of a moral center (and talent/accomplishments) than Marcan.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 9, 2013)

Snailface said:


> What kind of a troll writes something like this:
> http://marcansoft.com/blog/2011/01/safe-hacking/#more-275
> 
> I can't think of a hacker with more of a moral center (and talent/accomplishments) than Marcan.


 

True that; everyone has their own quirks and actions may rub others the wrong way, but that doesn't change the fact that some people are geniuses or at least very adept at this field of programming.  In this case, Marcan. I may have pissed him off more frequently that I'd like to, but I never hated him. I want to make things right, I want to clarify that I was never mad at him per se, but rather the situation that was presented to us was an awkward one to say the least. The phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" would be appropriate. If people want to be mad at me, so be it.


----------



## Rydian (May 9, 2013)

lenselijer said:


> Marcan is a big troll.


If you'd read more than one line (I know this is difficult, but you must try!) you'll see that he also laments how much software is not being released on Android and such.  GTA III shows that PC games can and will run when ported to Android, it's just usually older ones since the GPUs in Android devices are not nearly to the standards modern games need.  Maybe if Android devices were still using low resolutions, but with everything tossing 720P+ screens on nowadays, that raises the GPU use dramatically (double the resolution, _quadruple_ the required bandwidth and shader work).



lenselijer said:


> OK, I want to play a new game on linux, tell me how?


Many games are getting official Linux ports nowadays, even Steam has an official Linux version.



lenselijer said:


> great platforms


One thing all you people seem to be missing is that _there's shit other than playing videogames involved_.  He's talking about the devices from a programmer's standpoint, how easy it is to develop programs at home for them.


----------



## Slowking (May 10, 2013)

marcan's (and from what I can gather the whole of fail0verfl0w's) point of view is understandable, but still makes me a little sad.

I don't own a WiiU, nor will I in the foreseeable future, yet I always love hearing about storys where devices are hacked and freed up for the User to use as they please. I don't own an iPhone either, yet I read into the last view jailbreaks, just out of curiosity.

At this point I actually hope that the wiikeyU is real, so fail0verfl0w won't have any reason not to release the hack. If piracy is already possible it can't get any worse, afterall.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 10, 2013)

Slowking said:


> The marcan's (and from what I can gather the whole of fail0verfl0w's) point of view is understandable, but still makes me a little sad.
> 
> I don't own a WiiU, nor will I in the foreseeable future, yet I always love hearing about storys where devices are hacked and freed up for the User to use as they please. I don't own an iPhone either, yet I read into the last view jailbreaks, just out of curiosity.
> 
> At this point I actually hope that the wiikeyU is real, so fail0verfl0w won't have any reason not to release the hack. If piracy is already possible it can't get any worse, afterall.


 
There is some behind-the-scenes action going here, not all is lost.

http://gbatemp.net/threads/coding-v...rything-you-need-to-know.347626/#post-4637035


----------



## Ray Lewis (May 10, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> There is some behind-the-scenes action going here, not all is lost.


Seriously, Marcan gave some of the exploit, BUT it is for vWii only.  Only person I've seen working on it is Maxternal on her thread about "3 cores."  Idea is to get linux running in/over (whatever) vWii.  Marcan offered to help (if/when needed) for some points and Comex has stopped in to help.  I suggest anyone with coding skills, linux knowledge, and hacking skills seriously look to help.  The bickering leads nowhere.


----------



## the_randomizer (May 10, 2013)

Ray Lewis said:


> Seriously, Marcan gave some of the exploit, BUT it is for vWii only. Only person I've seen working on it is Maxternal on her thread about "3 cores." Idea is to get linux running in/over (whatever) vWii. Marcan offered to help (if/when needed) for some points and Comex has stopped in to help. I suggest anyone with coding skills, linux knowledge, and hacking skills seriously look to help. The bickering leads nowhere.


 
I would advise strongly to those who are reading this to take notice of the activity; it's subtle for now, but it will become more noticeable.


----------



## Maxternal (May 10, 2013)

All I can hope for with my thread is getting the extra "number crunching" in the libogc based apps (normal homebrew) that he mentioned. I hope with a group effort some simple code and functions that can be put together that can be copied and pasted into existing apps to make it easier for them to take advantage of the other cores.

The linux port, it a little beyond me ATM, but maybe having that info available in the thread will help someone who knows how to port linux correctly. I think the linux kernel is the only thing that needs porting here, though. A normal homebrew app would just need to go through the same motions and then hand off control to linux (ironically, right BEFORE the only part I've actually been working at) and let it go.


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