# What has motivated you to engage in political thought?



## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

For me it was the fall of the roman empire.


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## Taleweaver (May 13, 2022)

Good question. Let's see... 

For me, it's somewhere in the aftermath of 9/11. While it was pretty clear al qaeda (Bin Laden) was behind it, for some reason it's just got mentioned. Not that anyone thought the country was completely on the level (i remember the gulf War from when i was young), there simply wasn't anything even remotely tieing them to 9/11. But for some reasons American just kept pushing the agenda and alleging those'weapons of mass destructions' existed, though there simply wasn't proof (south park later mocked their display of a random field as'proof'brilliantly). 
So i protested. Fuck... Everyone in the eu did. And for good reason: the us were the good guys until that point. And they were attacked... So why the hell were they planning on attacking a completely different country in a completely different part of the world for a completely different reason?

The defining point, if you want to call it that, was me watching the documentary 'outfoxed'. It just... Helped me understood the madness the country went in: a self proclaimed news network that twisted news rather than covering it, coupled with the arrogance that they were telling the truth.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Thanks for sharing your story.


Taleweaver said:


> Good question. Let's see...
> 
> For me, it's somewhere in the aftermath of 9/11. While it was pretty clear al qaeda (Bin Laden) was behind it, for some reason it's just got mentioned. Not that anyone thought the country was completely on the level (i remember the gulf War from when i was young), there simply wasn't anything even remotely tieing them to 9/11.


Yeah, and the thrid building that collapsed hours later on its own. Very odd.


Taleweaver said:


> But for some reasons American just kept pushing the agenda and alleging those'weapons of mass destructions' existed, though there simply wasn't proof (south park later mocked their display of a random field as'proof'brilliantly).


Yeah, that has damaged the american reputation on the world stage tremendously.


Taleweaver said:


> So i protested. Fuck... Everyone in the eu did. And for good reason: the us were the good guys until that point. And they were attacked... So why the hell were they planning on attacking a completely different country in a completely different part of the world for a completely different reason?


Very good question. What are your findings on this?


Taleweaver said:


> The defining point, if you want to call it that, was me watching the documentary 'outfoxed'. It just... Helped me understood the madness the country went in: a self proclaimed news network that twisted news rather than covering it, coupled with the arrogance that they were telling the truth.


I will put that in my bookmarks. Thx


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## Glyptofane (May 13, 2022)

It was a long time ago, but I suppose it was primarily 9/11 which eventually led to studying the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. It's been a real god damn exhausting can of worms.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Glyptofane said:


> It was a long time ago, but I suppose it was primarily 9/11 which eventually led to studying the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. It's been a real god damn exhausting can of worms.


Thanks for sharing. So the 911 event seems to be a significant one. Perhaps the ethnic cleansing and the basically unjustified war against iraq and afghanistan might be connected.


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## Dark_Phoras (May 13, 2022)

The 2008 financial crisis was very impactful in my country and it happened in my early teens; the austerity that followed shaped my family's life forever. Adding to it, I moved to a new school with a completely different setting of thought. Before, I spent my time talking about science and technology and playing videogames with my friends. But my new classmates and teachers were more interested in human rights, equality and the humanistic dimension. In this context, I and my classmates found ourselves in school debates and student-organized protests.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Thank you for sharing your story.


Dark_Phoras said:


> The 2008 financial crisis was very impactful in my country and it happened in my early teens; the austerity that followed shaped my family's life forever.


I'm sorry to hear that.


Dark_Phoras said:


> Adding to it, I moved to a new school with a completely different setting of thought. Before, I spent my time talking about science and technology and playing videogames with my friends. But my new classmates and teachers were more interested in human rights, equality and the humanistic dimension. In this context, I and my classmates found ourselves in school debates and student-organized protests.


Nice


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## Dark_Phoras (May 13, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Thank you for sharing your story.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that.



Damn, Cat, I didn't mean to sound like a snowflake.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Dark_Phoras said:


> Damn, Cat, I didn't mean to sound like a snowflake.


Maybe you have another story that is more masculine?


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## CoolMe (May 13, 2022)

For me it was soy, EMF radiation & Creamu..


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

CoolMe said:


> For me it was soy


Yes. As far as I know soy in the us is extremely toxic and leads to estrogen dominance.



CoolMe said:


> EMF radiation


Yes, unfortunatly there is litte awareness on this one. EMF radiation grinds you down slowly.

https://gbatemp.net/blogs/negative-...-emited-by-electronic-devices-overview.18876/


CoolMe said:


> & Creamu..


How so?


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## Dark_Phoras (May 13, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Maybe you have another story that is more masculine?



None political.



Creamu said:


> Yes. As far as I know soy in the us is extremely toxic and leads to estrogen dominance.



That's a myth perpetuated by anti-animal rights or anti-plant based diet people. Soy is actually beneficial for the man's reproductive system. Check this out: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/ ; https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33383165/ 

_"Results of recent population studies suggest that soy has either a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions. Soy is a nutrient-dense source of protein that can safely be consumed several times a week, and probably more often, and is likely to provide health benefits—especially when eaten as an alternative to red and processed meat."

"Soy foods are rich in nutrients including B vitamins, fiber, potassium, magnesium, and high-quality protein. Unlike some plant proteins, soy protein is considered a complete protein, containing all nine essential amino acids that the body cannot make which must be obtained from the diet."

"In a meta-analysis of 30 case-control and cohort studies from the U.S., Europe, Japan, and China, intakes of total soy foods, genistein, daidzein, and unfermented soy foods were associated with a lower risk of prostate cancer."

"Regardless of the statistical model, no significant effects of soy protein or isoflavone intake on any of the outcomes measured were found (lowering testosterone levels or raising estrogen levels). Sub-analysis of the data according to isoflavone dose and study duration also showed no effect."_


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## JonhathonBaxster (May 13, 2022)

My first exposure to politics was in college in a class I took.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Dark_Phoras said:


> That's a myth perpetuated by anti-animal rights or anti-plant based diet people. Soy is actually beneficial for the man's reproductive system. Check this out: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/ ; https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33383165/


Okay lets see.


Dark_Phoras said:


> _"Results of recent population studies suggest that soy has either a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions._


This says nothing about estrogen and testosterone. In principle this statement can apply to smoking as well.


Dark_Phoras said:


> _ Soy is a nutrient-dense source of protein_


I don't know about nutrient-density of soy, but I highly doubt bioavailability is comparable to beef.


Dark_Phoras said:


> _ that can safely be consumed several times a week, and probably more often, and is likely to provide health benefits—especially when eaten as an alternative to red and processed meat."_


True processed meat is poison and a poor reference point. "Safely" is up for interpretation and no objective term. Smoking is likely to provide health benefits as well.


Dark_Phoras said:


> _"Soy foods are rich in nutrients including B vitamins, fiber, potassium, magnesium, and high-quality protein. Unlike some plant proteins, soy protein is considered a complete protein, containing all nine essential amino acids that the body cannot make which must be obtained from the diet."_


What about bioavailability?


Dark_Phoras said:


> _"In a meta-analysis of 30 case-control and cohort studies from the U.S., Europe, Japan, and China, intakes of total soy foods, genistein, daidzein, and unfermented soy foods were associated with a lower risk of prostate cancer."_


That I would have to look closer into.


Dark_Phoras said:


> _"Regardless of the statistical model, no significant effects of soy protein or isoflavone intake on any of the outcomes measured were found (lowering testosterone levels or raising estrogen levels). Sub-analysis of the data according to isoflavone dose and study duration also showed no effect."_


No significant effects is up for interpretation. Beef definetly raises testosterone would be nice to see a direct comparison.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

JonhathonBaxster said:


> My first exposure to politics was in college in a class I took.


Care to elaborate?


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## Marc_LFD (May 13, 2022)

_While it was pretty clear al qaeda (Bin Laden) was behind it_

People are free to believe what they want, it's after all, free to do so.

And here's BBC the world's most trustworthy broadcast company about 9/11:


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Marc_78065 said:


> _While it was pretty clear al qaeda (Bin Laden) was behind it_
> 
> People are free to believe what they want, it's after all, free to do so.
> 
> And here's BBC the world's most trustworthy broadcast company about 9/11:



Yes, when taking a serious look at the 911 narrative it immdiatly falls apart.


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## Dark_Phoras (May 14, 2022)

@Creamu the second link is specifically about estrogen and testosterone. I don't understand why you compare the disproven concept of soy consumption's effect on men's hormonal balance with the proven fatal effect of smoking in humans. I also don't see the relevance of bioavailability to your argument: in the references for that page, you can see that the numerous studies that sustain the information presented in the text were based on observation in living subjects, not on purely theoretical calculations.


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## VinsCool (May 14, 2022)

Not speaking for myself but the ones who appear to be engaged are mostly bored living with their parents and/or feeling invincible behind a computer screen and must absolutely feel the adrenaline rush by getting involved with arguments with contradictory opinions for the sake of winning said argument, bonus points for lack of education and taking beliefs as truth.


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

Dark_Phoras said:


> @Creamu the second link is specifically about estrogen and testosterone.


Yes.


Dark_Phoras said:


> I don't understand why you compare the disproven concept of soy consumption's effect on men's hormonal balance with the proven fatal effect of smoking in humans.


I wanted to highlight the framing of their argumentation. The problem with science is that there is a lot of room for sophistry. I didn't mean to compare smoking with soy.


Dark_Phoras said:


> I also don't see the relevance of bioavailability to your argument:


The relevance is that for health it is not important what you eat, but what you digest. I was reacting to the claims in the quotes you have provided.


Dark_Phoras said:


> in the references for that page, you can see that the numerous studies that sustain the information presented in the text were based on observation in living subjects, not on purely theoretical calculations.


Yes. What would be a nice study is a comparison of soy intake in contrast to lean grass fed beef.


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## The Catboy (May 14, 2022)

I am trans


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## AncientBoi (May 14, 2022)

Political? Oh, it's voting time in my region. Bye bye Govenor Newsome.


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## Xzi (May 14, 2022)

Hard to point to one specific thing.  It was partly just growing into a teenager and realizing all the fucked up stuff about the system we live in.  Partly what my high school chose to teach us about American/world history, and what they chose to omit.  Partly the supreme court deciding who won the presidential election in 2000 rather than the voters.  And partly bands like Rage Against the Machine and System of a Down.


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## AncientBoi (May 14, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Hard to point to one specific thing.  It was partly just growing into a teenager and realizing all the fucked up stuff about the system we live in.  Partly what my high school chose to teach us about American/world history, and what they chose to omit.  Partly the supreme court deciding who won the presidential election in 2000 rather than the voters.  And partly bands like Rage Against the Machine and System of a Down.



Good bands if you ask me.


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## CoolMe (May 14, 2022)

AncientBoi said:


> Good bands if you ask me.


..We gotta take the power back!!


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## Xzi (May 14, 2022)

CoolMe said:


> ..We gotta take the power back!!


Why stand on a silent platform?  Fight the war, fuck the norm!


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## CoolMe (May 14, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Why stand on a silent platform?  Fight the war, fuck the norm!


WAAAAaaaaaAaake UUUUUuuuup!! WAAaaaaKE UUUUUuuP!!


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## AncientBoi (May 14, 2022)

CoolMe said:


> WAAAAaaaaaAaake UUUUUuuuup!! WAAaaaaKE UUUUUuuP!!



Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I'm busy napping damn it!


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## Dark_Phoras (May 14, 2022)

@Creamu

You did compare soy with cigars, twice. Your concern with sophistry is ironic, when you admit to proceed with rethoric actions that serve no purpose for your arguments. I didn't share a study requisitioned by an interested corporation to some obscure lab, I shared conclusions by the University of Harvard and other top universities, as well as major public institutions; the second link is a study between the Universities of Essex, Kansas and Minnesota that analyzed the effects in thousands of subjects over ten years.

You're raising the concern of bioavailability because you are under some ill thought suggestion that there's a low rate of absorption and use of the soy nutrients by the human body, which compromises the results of the studies. But I write again, the bioavailability doesn't matter because the studies already observed the real effects of soy consumption in people who ate the soy. And in these studies, which you may or may not know, there's always at least one control group, which in this case means a group of people that didn't eat soy.

And since you're so focused on health, it's a paradox that you insist on beef. The World Health Organization already shared scientific findings that beef consumption causes colorectal cancer.


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## Taleweaver (May 14, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Very good question. What are your findings on this?


Oh, that's an easy one. So much so that i initially was pondering whether it was really as black and white, or that there was still some truth in the phrases W. Bush uttered. You know: freeing the country of a dictator, bringing democracy, that stuff.

But it wasn't. Sometimes the truth is just black and white without any grey inbetween.

The iraqi invasion was just a cash grab for oil.


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

Dark_Phoras said:


> @Creamu
> 
> You did compare soy with cigars, twice.


That was not my intention then. My intention was to demonstrate the problem of sophistry in the current state of science.


Dark_Phoras said:


> Your concern with sophistry is ironic, when you admit to proceed with rethoric actions that serve no purpose for your arguments. I didn't share a study requisitioned by an interested corporation to some obscure lab, I shared conclusions by the University of Harvard and other top universities, as well as major public institutions; the second link is a study between the Universities of Essex, Kansas and Minnesota that analyzed the effects in thousands of subjects over ten years.


Yes in the dark ages they refered to the local church or the pope or whatever. There is great marketing around those institutions but if you read Foucault you might learn that these institutions aren't necesseraly there to inform you of anything, but to wage power.



Dark_Phoras said:


> You're raising the concern of bioavailability because you are under some ill thought suggestion that there's a low rate of absorption and use of the soy nutrients by the human body, which compromises the results of the studies.


Not at all, I am just pointing out, that it was not mentioned by them.


Dark_Phoras said:


> But I write again, the bioavailability doesn't matter because the studies already observed the real effects of soy consumption in people who ate the soy.


Well all I can do is comment on the quotes you have provided. What is stated there I don't find very convinicing for the reasons stated. You may adress those points or not, it is what it is. Don't believe in peer reviewed studies like christians believe in their bible, you might find out late that you are dealing with actors that don't have your best interest in mind.


Dark_Phoras said:


> And in these studies, which you may or may not know, there's always at least one control group, which in this case means a group of people that didn't eat soy.


They should do a control group that eats grass fed lean beef.


Dark_Phoras said:


> And since you're so focused on health, it's a paradox that you insist on beef. The World Health Organization already shared scientific findings that beef consumption causes colorectal cancer.


Yes. Humans have eaten meat for most of their evolutionary life, but yet they are not well adapted to it. I don't believe it. Did these findings study poisoness mass produced beef per chance? In that case I believe it, but again thats not a valid reference point in my view.


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> Oh, that's an easy one. So much so that i initially was pondering whether it was really as black and white, or that there was still some truth in the phrases W. Bush uttered. You know: freeing the country of a dictator, bringing democracy, that stuff.
> 
> But it wasn't. Sometimes the truth is just black and white without any grey inbetween.


Sometimes it is even black and white but the other way around. haha


Taleweaver said:


> The iraqi invasion was just a cash grab for oil.


Be careful with easy answers like that. If you dig a bit deeper you might quickly find that there is a whole sewer underneath


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I am trans


Care to elaborate?


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## ital (May 14, 2022)

Why? To put the world to rights, one post at a time. 

Without actually having to do anything of worth or any consequence, nor change out of my pajamas! But it sure makes me feel better about my worthless existence and provides a vent for the built up frustrations of the live I've lived to get to this point. 

Thats OK though, there are plenty others like me to help engage in deceptive behavior so lucidity of the stupidity of my actions won't ever become obvious to me, even if it is to others.  

All the more reason to add them to "The List" if they dare mention it or not agree with me and my view of how the world should be. 

_We gonna chase those <insert group du jour> outta this town. We gonna chase those <insert group du jour> outta this town. _SING IT WITH ME NOW!


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

ital said:


> Why? To put the world to rights, one post at a time.
> 
> Without actually having to do anything of worth or any consequence, nor change out of my pajamas! But it sure makes me feel better about my worthless existence and provides a vent for the built up frustrations of the live I've lived to get to this point.
> 
> ...


I couldn't follow your train of thought but it sounds dramatic.


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## The Catboy (May 14, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Care to elaborate?


Despite any efforts to change this, being trans comes with an inherent political nature. This isn’t by choice but due to the existence of trans being seen as a political issue. Thus pushing trans people into politics for the sake of survival. If we don’t, we constantly run the risk of having our rights stripped away due to fear-mongering


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## ital (May 14, 2022)

Oh indeed. And if people don't agree with me THEN I CAN SIMPLY SHOUT LOUDER AND SAY THEY ARE A TERRIBLE PERSON so I win.


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> Despite any efforts to change this, being trans comes with an inherent political nature. This isn’t by choice but due to the existence of trans being seen as a political issue. Thus pushing trans people into politics for the sake of survival. If we don’t, we constantly run the risk of having our rights stripped away due to fear-mongering


I'm sorry for your the situation you find yourself in. Maybe a rebranding would help. Something in french perhaps to make it sound more sophistcated and cultured?


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## The Catboy (May 14, 2022)

Creamu said:


> I'm sorry for your the situation you find yourself in. Maybe a rebranding would help. Something in french perhaps to make it sound more sophistcated and cultured?


I don’t see how others treating me like shit should warrant me changing anything about myself


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> I don’t see how others treating me like shit should warrant me changing anything about myself


Trans it is then.


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## stanleyopar2000 (May 14, 2022)

the rise of demigods throughout history and how powerful and convincing they can be


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## FAST6191 (May 14, 2022)

I was reading a pondering the other day on pricing models for software. It contrasted macro economics (about as verifiable as any other social science, which is to say it is correct as long as you don't check) with micro (rather useful if you want to price things, or at least be able to say you did something before it fails).
Thinking about it then something similar happened for me many years ago. I came to the conclusion that it did not matter what colour tie the dude in charge and his cohort, or indeed puppet masters, have as it is all much the same until you hit the extremes which are generally unstable as anything owing to them failing to account for economics or human psychology. Micro on the other hand can be quite useful when dealing with office and organisational politics, though I still aim to bypass it -- nobody can threaten my lowest level of Maslow's Hierarchy ( https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/other/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs/ ), I generally aim to have skills that are in very short supply and thus can do the "little man, who do you think will blink first in this scenario"/your toolbox has wheels on it for a reason all while being able to assess who I need to speak to so as to get things done. That or if doing the "some men want to watch the world burn" then you can figure out exactly which thread to pull.
I still had to study a variety of political theories and psychology (it is a bit like maths in that regard -- pointless but you need to have a lot of grounding say why it is and quite useful along the way as an approximation) but that was actually kind of fun.


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## DinohScene (May 15, 2022)

Nothing.
I really do not care about politics and will never do.


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## Creamu (May 15, 2022)

DinohScene said:


> Nothing.
> I really do not care about politics and will never do.


Living the dream.


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## bqsantanatwo (May 15, 2022)

Covid pandemic. Turns out I'm a communist now, and very interested in marxism theory.


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## Creamu (May 15, 2022)

bqsantanatwo said:


> Covid pandemic. Turns out I'm a communist now,


Oh, that is interesting. Care to elaborate?


bqsantanatwo said:


> and very interested in marxism theory.


Don't bother he was an evil racist and his writings were incoherent.


> “The Jewish N-WORD Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation. The chap would sooner throw money down the drain than lend it to a ‘friend,’ even though his interest and capital were guaranteed. … It is now quite plain to me—as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify—that he is descended from the N-WORDs who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a N-WORD). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic N-WORD stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow’s importunity is also N-WORD-like.” Karl Marx, “Marx to Friedrich Engels in Manchester,” 1862


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## Nikokaro (May 26, 2022)

Boredom .... 
Speaking seriously, politics itself has never interested me, while the psychological and emotional implications on the individual (and the mass movements) of political decisions capture my attention and intrigue me.

Just between us, how many theads have you opened lately in this section?!? Do you suffer from loneliness and yearn for the desire to communicate? Or is it to quickly rack up some XP? Look, they have no concrete (if not imaginary) value, and you won't be able to exchange them for prizes or groceries ....


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## Jayro (May 26, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> Good question. Let's see...
> 
> For me, it's somewhere in the aftermath of 9/11. While it was pretty clear al qaeda (Bin Laden) was behind it, for some reason it's just got mentioned. Not that anyone thought the country was completely on the level (i remember the gulf War from when i was young), there simply wasn't anything even remotely tieing them to 9/11. But for some reasons American just kept pushing the agenda and alleging those'weapons of mass destructions' existed, though there simply wasn't proof (south park later mocked their display of a random field as'proof'brilliantly).
> So i protested. Fuck... Everyone in the eu did. And for good reason: the us were the good guys until that point. And they were attacked... So why the hell were they planning on attacking a completely different country in a completely different part of the world for a completely different reason?
> ...


It was 9/11 for me too, it happened when I was 18.


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## LoggerMan (May 26, 2022)

Poverty and inequity, politics and government is the only way to solve it and that's what motivates me to vote.

Rome and their senate is fascinating and all, but the romans republic senate was totally unworkable. It served as a tool for men to advance themselves and that only served the city of Rome by bringing in easy wealth and slaves. The republic of Rome was so unworkable that it took neutering it and consolidating power under an emperor for real people to see real improvement in their normal lives, and the empire was unworkable in the long run because getting a good emperor was a crapshoot. It's amazing that the Roman republic and empire lasted as long as it did.

The problems with the Roman republic should be studied though because those same problems exist in governments all over the world, especially in former Commonwealth states.


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## Creamu (May 26, 2022)

Nikokaro said:


> Boredom ....
> Speaking seriously, politics itself has never interested me, while the psychological and emotional implications on the individual (and the mass movements) of political decisions capture my attention and intrigue me.


Maybe you should take a look at my comparative analysis of The Matrix and video game media. I have recently touched on Freud.


Nikokaro said:


> Just between us, how many theads have you opened lately in this section?!?


I'm not sure, there is not a high frequency of threads opened in this subforum, I might have overestimated that.


Nikokaro said:


> Do you suffer from loneliness and yearn for the desire to communicate?


My cat died recently, that might be a contributing factor.


Nikokaro said:


> Or is it to quickly rack up some XP?


No that has no use  for me.


Nikokaro said:


> Look, they have no concrete (if not imaginary) value, and you won't be able to exchange them for prizes or groceries ....


Exactly, thats the flaw in the xp system. If I could learn new attacks or evolve into another form that would make it worth it.


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## Creamu (May 26, 2022)

Jayro said:


> It was 9/11 for me too, it happened when I was 18.


911 seems to have been a big contributor for many. Coincedently in my comparative analysis of the Matrix movie that subject comes up as well.


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## Creamu (May 26, 2022)

LoggerMan said:


> Poverty and inequity, politics and government is the only way to solve it and that's what motivates me to vote.


How do you see the government solve this?


LoggerMan said:


> Rome and their senate is fascinating and all, but the romans republic senate was totally unworkable. It served as a tool for men to advance themselves and that only served the city of Rome by bringing in easy wealth and slaves. The republic of Rome was so unworkable that it took neutering it and consolidating power under an emperor for real people to see real improvement in their normal lives, and the empire was unworkable in the long run because getting a good emperor was a crapshoot. It's amazing that the Roman republic and empire lasted as long as it did.


It lasted quite long and is the greatest civilisation that ever was on earth.


LoggerMan said:


> The problems with the Roman republic should be studied though because those same problems exist in governments all over the world, especially in former Commonwealth states.


Very true. We might be heading for collapse, our pillars are not as great as those of the roman empire.


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## Dark_Ansem (May 26, 2022)

The fact that while I may have not been interested in politics before, politics were always interested in me. Better to tackle the beast head-on than be sneaked from behind. Same reason I relinquished Facebook, Twitter, and all the rest of the nonsense.


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## FAST6191 (May 26, 2022)

Creamu said:


> [Rome]It lasted quite long and is the greatest civilisation that ever was on earth.


An interesting assertion there. I am not sure I can back it up without reservation or hesitation though. Even those at the time could have posed a challenge, and since then almost certainly. 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century European efforts (especially if you go for shared culture rather than shared continuity of rule) I would also place ahead of them but I can ignore those for the purposes of a historical discussion.


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## Creamu (May 26, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> An interesting assertion there. I am not sure I can back it up without reservation or hesitation though. Even those at the time could have posed a challenge, and since then almost certainly. 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century European efforts (especially if you go for shared culture rather than shared continuity of rule) I would also place ahead of them but I can ignore those for the purposes of a historical discussion.


Interesting perspective. We all have our biases, I personally look at the renaissance and it's fruits as the echos of the roman empire. The european efforts at those times were in my view Roman since the people who built that were those who fled to the north as the Roman empire collapsed. Neo Classicism was the last attempt at a serious civilisational project.

Best enjoyed with this as backgorund music:


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## Nikokaro (May 26, 2022)

Creamu said:


> It lasted quite long and is the greatest civilisation that ever was on earth.


If you are passionate about ancient Rome and the Latin culture of my ancestors, maybe you may be interested in my translations of Phaedrus's fables (which I have suspended for now, since no one seemed interested...): https://gbatemp.net/members/nikokaro.517430/#ubs_blog_entries


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## FAST6191 (May 26, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Interesting perspective. We all have our biases, I personally look at the renaissance and it's fruits as the echos of the roman empire. The european efforts at those times were in my view Roman since the people who built that were those who fled to the north as the Roman empire collapsed. Neo Classicism was the last attempt at a serious civilisational project.
> 
> Best enjoyed with this as backgorund music:



Italy's efforts in World War 2 and run up to it would have to count under your notions there if "serious" (plausible less so).

That said we might debate eastern and western Roman empires as to whether the eastern was still Roman but stretching it beyond that is tricky.
Its influence looms large over European history (and a lot of North African as well) if you follow Latin's existence in the time since (granted people probably romanticise it overly -- French was the language of the nobility*, just like Greek tended to be for Rome**, but people do like those scientific papers and religious text or historical accounts written by bored monks) and the whole "French law comes from Roman law" thing that some like to ponder but to draw a line directly gets dubious.
On fled north... I have met the dying embers of Rome kickstarted Northern Europe before. It is the lesser aspect of the great men of history mode of historical analysis from where I sit (at that point I would be back to the geographical analysis*** and biological analysis for my driving forces of things here). Similarly most of the classical texts seemed to come back from the Arabs rather than living on in Europe and influencing things there. At best I have "you can't disprove it" as a comeback which is hardly a position of strength to argue from.

*things like the Avignon Papacy also serving to trouble the "but the church" thing. https://www.thoughtco.com/the-avignon-papacy-1789454

**if Rome is the such majesty such wow of various European thinkers then Greece was that for Rome, and if that medieval history is echoes of Rome then similar claim would be made for echoes of ancient Greece.

**It is noted Italy is great in the early game of civilisation, less so in the later one. Italy as training level in similar manner, albeit greater timeline, to Wales and Ireland as training level for the UK.


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## Creamu (May 26, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> Italy's efforts in World War 2 and run up to it would have to count under your notions there if "serious" (plausible less so).


I see Italy more on the futuristic side, while germany was more neo classical oriented. But it's a touchy subject and the victors narrative is so penetrant and cartoonish that there seldom is room for sensible discussion.


FAST6191 said:


> That said we might debate eastern and western Roman empires as to whether the eastern was still Roman but stretching it beyond that is tricky.


Constantinople was a roman branch for sure. If you look at my comparative analysis of the Matrix movie you see me draw comparisons between video games, hollywood and mythology. We are still living in the shadow of rome culturally speaking. Another aspect is the genetical one. The people of rome have not perished, and there are serious implications that come with that realisation.


FAST6191 said:


> Its influence looms large over European history (and a lot of North African as well) if you follow Latin's existence in the time since (granted people probably romanticise it overly -- French was the language of the nobility*, just like Greek tended to be for Rome**, but people do like those scientific papers and religious text or historical accounts written by bored monks) and the whole "French law comes from Roman law" thing that some like to ponder but to draw a line directly gets dubious.


Spritiually europe is roman (even as europe is currently falling apart).
https://gbatemp.net/threads/the-matrix-1999-is-thomas-anderson-nemo.612470/
People are moved by irrational, esoteric and spiritiual notions.


FAST6191 said:


> On fled north... I have met the dying embers of Rome kickstarted Northern Europe before. It is the lesser aspect of the great men of history mode of historical analysis from where I sit (at that point I would be back to the geographical analysis*** and biological analysis for my driving forces of things here). Similarly most of the classical texts seemed to come back from the Arabs rather than living on in Europe and influencing things there. At best I have "you can't disprove it" as a comeback which is hardly a position of strength to argue from.


Interesting. I see alot from former desert dwellers working with roman symbology, but that has a deeper influence on the western world than alot may think. If you study symbology of hollywood you will see yourself disproven. The roman discourse is very much alive.


FAST6191 said:


> *things like the Avignon Papacy also serving to trouble the "but the church" thing. https://www.thoughtco.com/the-avignon-papacy-1789454
> 
> **if Rome is the such majesty such wow of various European thinkers then Greece was that for Rome, and if that medieval history is echoes of Rome then similar claim would be made for echoes of ancient Greece.


I agree, this is obiviously true. Jupiter/Zeus, Mercury/Hermes, Apollo, Mars/Ares etc. Rome was the peak however.


FAST6191 said:


> **It is noted Italy is great in the early game of civilisation, less so in the later one. Italy as training level in similar manner, albeit greater timeline, to Wales and Ireland as training level for the UK.


I do believe that we have never recovered form the fall of the roman empire (as a civilisation) and that there is a continuity there, even if it is obscure.


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## bqsantanatwo (May 29, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Oh, that is interesting. Care to elaborate?


Class consciousness. And it should be enough.


Creamu said:


> Don't bother he was an evil racist and his writings were incoherent.


I'm interested in his critical analysis of capitalist production, not gossips about how racist he was.
So I'm not going to dismiss all marxist thought because someone made a copy and paste of their shitty moment.


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## Creamu (May 29, 2022)

bqsantanatwo said:


> Class consciousness. And it should be enough.


I see, the covid pandamic has lead to the liquidiation of small buisness and concentration of power in to bigger buisness so I can see the connection there.


bqsantanatwo said:


> I'm interested in his critical analysis of capitalist production, not gossips about how racist he was.


No gossip I can provide more direct quotes.


bqsantanatwo said:


> So I'm not going to dismiss all marxist thought because someone made a copy and paste of their shitty moment.


No, read it. Just letting you know that it is a incoherent mess beforehand. Marx and Engels were interested in exploiting the german working class not helping them.

Read Marx. I personally think its a waste of time and cognitive function, but it is at least interesting to know who that guy really is, that is still talked about so much.

Here some more quotes illustrating his evil racism:



> What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. … Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man—and turns them into commodities. … The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange. … The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.” Karl Marx 1844





> [Tremaux] proved that the common N-WORD type is the degenerate form of a much higher one … a very significant advance over Darwin. Karl Marx August 7, 1866






> Without slavery, North America, the most progressive of countries, would be transformed into a patriarchal country. Wipe out North America from the map of the world and you will have anarchy— the complete decay of modern commerce and civilization. Abolish slavery and you will have wiped America off the map of nations.” Karl Marx 1847





> Take Amsterdam, for instance, a city harboring many of the worst descendants of the Jews whom Ferdinand and Isabella drove out of Spain and who, after lingering a while in Portugal, were driven out of there too and eventually found a place of retreat in Holland. … Here and there and everywhere that a little capital courts investment, there is ever one of these little Jews ready to make a little suggestion or place a little bit of a loan. The smartest highwayman in the Abruzzi is not better posted about the locale of the hard cash in a traveler’s valise or pocket than these little Jews about any loose capital in the hands of a trader … These small Jewish agents draw their supplies from the big Jewish houses … and practice great ostensible devotion to the religion of their race. Karl Marx 1856





> Thus we find every tyrant backed by a Jew, as is every Pope by a Jesuit. In truth, the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless, and the practicability of war out of the question, if there were not an army of Jesuits to smother thought and a handful of Jews to ransack pockets. … The fact that 1,855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish money-changers out of the temple, and that the money-changers of our age, enlisted on the side of tyranny, happen again to be Jews is perhaps no more than a historic coincidence. Karl Marx 1856





> Indian society has no history at all, at least no known history. What we shall call its history is but the history of the successive invaders who founded their empires on the passive basis of that unresisting and unchanging society. Karl Marx August 8, 1853





> Russia is a name usurped by the Muscovites. They are not Slavs, do not belong at all to the Indo-German race, but are _des intrus_ [intruders], who must again he hurled back beyond the Dnieper, etc. Karl Marx June 24, 1865





> This splendid territory [the Balkans] has the misfortune to be inhabited by a conglomerate of different races and nationalities, of which it is hard to say which is the least fit for progress and civilization. Slavonians, Greeks, Wallachians, Arnauts, twelve millions of men, are all held in submission by one million of Turks, and up to a recent period, it appeared doubtful whether, of all these different races, the Turks were not the most competent to hold the supremacy which, in such a mixed population, could not but accrue to one of these nationalities. Karl Marx 1853



There is alot more of this i can share if you are interested


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## Dr_Faustus (Jun 1, 2022)

Honestly I just speak to common sense and the world around me and what I see. I grew around all kinds of people, lived through several instances of good and bad from all sides and while at a time I could have seen myself as right or left I find both sides to be at this point full of shit on the vapid end of actually giving a goddamn about the common person and their needs. 

The problem with politics in general is its easy to get people to follow you if you simply tell them what they want and have simple solutions to complex problems. The reality is most of those promises are never carried out and a lot of the time its hot potato being played in congress and senate before something falls through. I think a quote that I am probably misremembering said it best "If you want to get nothing done, form a committee around it!". Which is unfortunately true for a lot of these things.

Outisde of these things I think politics in general is a flawed concept, and is nothing more now than something to have people wear on their sleeve as if its their favorite home sports team or their favorite game company. Its just a waste of time shit flinging when no one is ever going to admit when their side has issues or something just outright sucks.


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## Creamu (Jun 3, 2022)

Dr_Faustus said:


> The problem with politics in general is its easy to get people to follow you if you simply tell them what they want and have simple solutions to complex problems.


This my hope.


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 15, 2022)

For me, 9/11 was the beginning. I began to question why they passed a law, the Patriot Act, that took away our constitutional rights, when we didn't have anything to do with it. Then a few years later, I started learning about the Federal Reserve. It's been a wild ride ever since. Now I understand how laws are passed in the US and probably every where else. Talk about problem. People ignore. Create dramatic event. People demand action. Pass law. Citizens give up rights. Once you know the formula, you can apply it to anything.


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## Creamu (Jul 20, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> For me, 9/11 was the beginning. I began to question why they passed a law, the Patriot Act, that took away our constitutional rights, when we didn't have anything to do with it. Then a few years later, I started learning about the Federal Reserve. It's been a wild ride ever since. Now I understand how laws are passed in the US and probably every where else. Talk about problem. People ignore. Create dramatic event. People demand action. Pass law. Citizens give up rights. Once you know the formula, you can apply it to anything.


What was it about 9/11 that made you look deeper into things?


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## TraderPatTX (Jul 21, 2022)

Creamu said:


> What was it about 9/11 that made you look deeper into things?


I watched it live on TV and my initial reaction was that it was a movie. Nothing made sense. Just like all these mass shooters are always on the FBI watch list or being monitored by law enforcement and they still end up killing lots of people. And then when they passed the Patriot Act, which is not patriotic at all, and they took our rights protecting us from illegal search and seizure away from us at airports, then making us take off our shoes and belts, and scanning our bodies and keeping the pictures, I knew they were throwing it in our faces that they could do whatever they wanted to us without repercussion.


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## Nothereed (Jul 21, 2022)

Several things. I've already in the past, stated that I grew up in a racist house hold. But a lot of things surrounding my life resulted in me becoming political.
For the racism part, I had to decide between my mother being infallable/or at least, believe that what she was saying was true. Or believe what my eyes were showing me (disproving what my mother said) For a time, I spouted the same things, mocking how mexicans speak, followed by the rehetroic of "they should know English" Over time, the two conflicting concepts resulted in me having to do confront it. In which I decided to be for my friend. Because it was hypocritical of me, to be mocking or being antagonistic to his people, let alone, believe that he wiped his ass with his hand when he clearly had toilet paper at home when I visited him

Then 2008 happened. I don't have a strong memory of it, as I was nine at the time. What I do know however, is that finances got far more messy.

My grandparents themselves, and what my stepfather's family did to them, was another part of my politics. My grandparents lived in essentially dead end jobs. It's not like they didn't want to do better jobs. But, rather, there was nothing around us. They struggled to keep food, or fix the mobile home they lived in. As it was rotting, the heating in the living room area was completely not functioning. and parts of the ceiling was partially caved in.  They were doing the best they could. My grandfather was a veitnam war vet, purple heart. He never talked about it with me, and he took his experinces to his grave.

Meanwhile, my stepfather's side of the family, who could own two homes post 2008, they partied often, they got to do things they wanted to do. They got drunk often and had beers.  One thanksgiving, it was arranged to have thanksgiving at my grandparents place, with my stepfathers family side visiting. It resulted in conflict. With my stepfather's family telling them to "just work harder" as if they choose to live in the conditions they did, leaving that thanksgiving. My grandfather would constantly teach me about work ethic. I remember how rarely I would be able to see them. Since even with the heat not working, I'd rather experince a lot of cold, and the tiny small space, than live at my stepfather, who could explode on me at any moment.

Then my life was turned upside down entirely around 2016. First off, my stepfather was homephobic towards my mom's friend. He got angry that my mom didn't stay at the house anymore. Since every day, my stepfather would call her, and even go as far as to check her gas millage on her car. He didn't want her to visit friends, it was stupid, and insane. A lot of other bubbling things like how I was constantly abused by him. Resulted in a burst one night, my mom defending me from him, and my mom and I was kicked out of the house.

Before meeting my stepfather, my mom and I would rarely see each other. She had to put me in daycare, while she went to work. I'd learned by around the age of 5 how to make eggs, cereal and toast by my own at that point. Even cook some other basic things. She would come home exhausted, working for a one bedroom apartment. She did everything she could to keep a roof over our heads. But her best, wasn't enough for the world. Even though she worked two jobs.

during 2016, gamer gate happened. And whole "SJW's are out to destory games. and trans people bad" came into the picture. I was briefly pulled into the alt right. And to be fair to myself. I couldn't think straight. My grandfather died of a heart attack infront of my eyes. Something that my mom and I spotted the signs of possibly happen 6 months earlier. He died by totally preventable causes. But the reality is? He probably couldn't pay to prevent it. He died at 53.

Around 2017 is when I get my first tug that something was truly off. And that started with net neutrality. Since the internet had and always had been my friend. Even if I didn't make a whole lot of friends at school, and was constantly bullied, and crying out for the school system to help. I could always look to online, and make friends there. Which I did. I care about it, so when I learned net neutrality was going to be gutted. I learned that whatever "anti corporate" stance trump was on, was just off. Around 2018, I lost a friendship due to less than... savory jokes. At that time, I also was realizing that I wasn't entirely straight. I still liked women, but. I also like men. Something that I was struggling to come to terms with for a long while.

 By 2019, I realized I had fallen into the same trap with trans people as I did with Mexicans. Assumed malice, without actually investigating malice yourself. I befriended a few trans people. and I learned that pretty much all my fears were just wrong. After this point, I was mostly back to being a liberal. However, that year, I learned that a friend and I's interest aligned, and grew close enough to being romantic. We opened up to each other, and learned we had a lot more in common than we thought. As we discussed politics over the years from 2020, to even now. From both doing research, and them pointing me in a direction. I realized that this system, is doomed to fail. And it logically makes sense.
Meanwhile that same mess i was in before the alt right rabbit hole,Which turned fascist 2020, was getting more loud, and more angry, and more hateful, and a lot more violent.

At the end of the day. The system failed me, failed my mom, and failed my grandfather. I didn't even learn what mental disorders I had until 10. And that could of only happened, because my stepfather was closer to middle upper class and afford the healthcare for it. Than the rest of my biological family, who was essentially in poverty. It failed my grandfather since he never got to retire. Even though he did service to this country. And it failed my mother. She's still giving it her all, while dealing with her own mental problems too.
I don't think I have to explain to people, that when your mom is crying, and you have to hug her, and reaffirm to her. That something is just not right.

The stepfather? I would want to argue the system failed him too. The reason he was so cold, from what I could tell, was that, his parents where working all the time, and he was left home alone. Even though I hate what he did to me. I cannot call him a bad person, just tragic.
This system tears people apart, when we are a social species. Things are done so rigidly, that there is no room for the human aspect. Meanwhile those at the top. The true top. I despise. Since they have every mean to distribute wealth. every mean to put laws to help others but instead, they rather accumulate it and act out of self interest. And all I can think about is my life, playing 10 times over. Seeing that tragedy happen again, and again, and again, in countless other lives in some shape or form.


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## Dark_Ansem (Jul 21, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Several things. I've already in the past, stated that I grew up in a racist house hold. But a lot of things surrounding my life resulted in me becoming political.
> For the racism part, I had to decide between my mother being infallable/or at least, believe that what she was saying was true. Or believe what my eyes were showing me (disproving what my mother said) For a time, I spouted the same things, mocking how mexicans speak, followed by the rehetroic of "they should know English" Over time, the two conflicting concepts resulted in me having to do confront it. In which I decided to be for my friend. Because it was hypocritical of me, to be mocking or being antagonistic to his people, let alone, believe that he wiped his ass with his hand when he clearly had toilet paper at home when I visited him
> 
> Then 2008 happened. I don't have a strong memory of it, as I was nine at the time. What I do know however, is that finances got far more messy.
> ...



There are not enough words to comment.


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## Creamu (Jul 21, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I watched it live on TV and my initial reaction was that it was a movie. Nothing made sense. Just like all these mass shooters are always on the FBI watch list or being monitored by law enforcement and they still end up killing lots of people. And then when they passed the Patriot Act, which is not patriotic at all, and they took our rights protecting us from illegal search and seizure away from us at airports, then making us take off our shoes and belts, and scanning our bodies and keeping the pictures, I knew they were throwing it in our faces that they could do whatever they wanted to us without repercussion.


Yes. It is really strange. The second plane they could have shot before it approached the building. Than the second plane missed the tower. Circled around, giving them another opportunity to shoot but they didn't. It falls apart. If you have an eye on the FBI and shooters you might want to look at this thread:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/the-u-s...-from-its-foreign-terrorism-blacklist.612567/


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## Creamu (Jul 21, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> This system tears people apart, when we are a social species. Things are done so rigidly, that there is no room for the human aspect. Meanwhile those at the top. The true top. I despise. Since they have every mean to distribute wealth. every mean to put laws to help others but instead, they rather accumulate it and act out of self interest. And all I can think about is my life, playing 10 times over. Seeing that tragedy happen again, and again, and again, in countless other lives in some shape or form.


Yes. Let's hope and work toward a future were children can leave happy, carefree, healthy and eventually reproductive lifes when they have grown up. This is an ugly deathspiral. Wish you all the best.


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