# Trump makes landmines legal again



## notimp (Feb 1, 2020)

'merica, f*ck yeah.

*Trump lifts restrictions on US landmine use - BBC News*
src: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51332541


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## Kraken_X (Feb 1, 2020)

From the article you posted...

"More than 120,000 people were killed or injured by landmines between 1999-2017, according to the same group. Nearly half the victims are children, with 84% being boys. Civilians make up 87% of casualties."


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## Cylent1 (Feb 1, 2020)

Kraken_X said:


> From the article you posted...
> 
> "More than 120,000 people were killed or injured by landmines between 1999-2017, according to the same group. Nearly half the victims are children, with 84% being boys. Civilians make up 87% of casualties."


Who cares....  If we send our kids to war you better make damn sure they have what they need because do you honestly think the other side is gonna care about rules?  Didn't think so.


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## Viri (Feb 2, 2020)

notimp said:


> 'merica, f*ck yeah.
> 
> *Trump lifts restrictions on US landmine use - BBC News*
> src: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51332541


The US has never stopped using them. We mine the fuck out of Korea. We also never signed a treaty to ban them. Nor did Russia, China, and India.



Spoiler



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty


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## notimp (Feb 2, 2020)

> Nor did Russia, China, and India.

Important context. Thanks.

The treaty to abolish the use was signed only by the last administration. Trump now has reversed it.


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Feb 2, 2020)

So what? Now I need to hire a mine detector dog or else I can't walk around freely outside? Or do I have to crawl around like solid snake so I don't get blown up?


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## Cylent1 (Feb 2, 2020)

Sonic Angel Knight said:


> So what? Now I need to hire a mine detector dog or else I can't walk around freely outside? Or do I have to crawl around like solid snake so I don't get blown up?


If you don't reside in the USA, then yes and sorry bout your luck!


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Feb 2, 2020)

Cylent1 said:


> If you don't reside in the USA, then yes and sorry bout your luck!


Oh, okay. Then nothing to worry about. I'm in Usa.


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## ignare (Feb 2, 2020)

Blast those wussies!


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## notimp (Feb 2, 2020)

ignare said:


> Blast those wussies!








src: https://books.google.com/books?id=PWtDWBJILXsC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36

Nearly half of the victims are children.


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## Viri (Feb 2, 2020)

notimp said:


> > Nor did Russia, China, and India.
> 
> Important context. Thanks.
> 
> The treaty to abolish the use was signed only by the last administration. Trump now has reversed it.


I cannot find any source of Obama signing the treaty. Even if he did sign it, what's the point of signing the treaty, if you're not going to follow it? The US continued to land mine the fuck out of Korea, even under Obama.


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## spotanjo3 (Feb 2, 2020)

Crazy.


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## notimp (Feb 2, 2020)

Viri said:


> I cannot find any source of Obama signing the treaty. Even if he did sign it, what's the point of signing the treaty, if you're not going to follow it? The US continued to land mine the fuck out of Korea, even under Obama.


Here is a list of states that have not banned them so far:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Ottawa_Treaty#Non-signatory_states

Obama wanted to ban their use entirely, then was strongly urged not to do that in S.Korea, because of structural security - so he allowed for that exception to be carved out. That then resulted in funny decrees that included that stock on land mines that was not allocated for South Korea had to be destroyed during his presidency. Now its back. (BBC article has enough detail, just read through it.)

South Korea might be a special case indeed, as the government there is literally guaranteed and implemented through US intervention, there is a land border, distances arent huge. *cringe*


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## Deleted User (Feb 2, 2020)

Plant them around the border.


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## Viri (Feb 3, 2020)

The title of this thread is fake news. Trump didn't make them legal again, as they were never illegal in the first place. US never signed the treaty.


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## notimp (Feb 3, 2020)

Read the article instead of spouting "fake news", then.


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## slaphappygamer (Feb 3, 2020)

He just likes to bury things. He is even burying himself.


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## Taleweaver (Feb 4, 2020)

If I'm honest: the scariest part of the article is that it took you guys until Obama to restrict them in the first place (restrict? Why not make it illegal in the freaking first place??? )

Sure...you can count on the Trump administration to administer some dumb-ass sound bites on this matter.

Mark Esper: "Landmines are an important tool that our forces need to have available to them in order to ensure mission succ..."
Me: okay, I'm going to cut you off there, Mark, because you're either too dumb to understand what land mines are about or blatantly propagate terrorism. For your country's sake, I hope the former, but I'll better elaborate before some American gun nuts throw a tantrum because I dare to call their country propagate terrorism. Luckily, the percentages are already in the article (land mines kill far more civilians than militarians, and more children than adults), so I don't have to scour for sources. But it still leaves out a crucial aspect of mines that most other types of weapons do not have: land mines aren't so much designed to kill the enemy as to break their morale. It isn't a weapon for combat but for guerrilla warfare. Not aimed at winning an encounter or even standing ground but to break the ranks of the enemy in the most inhumane way possible.

I'll probably better illustrate it with an example, but I must warn y'all: it's a gruesome one. It involves dealing with a gun nut vs one armed with land mines.


Spoiler



Take a look outside. To your street. One side to the other side. then imagine for a second that one random pedestrian goes nuts and sees everyone as his enemy.

Example A is the common armed person. He starts shooting. I won't lie: it's very dangerous (deadly, even) and most likely leaves some pretty nasty trauma. But the thing is: once the police apprehends him, at least the area is still more or less saf.

Because take example B. Same guy buries some land mines in the area. Provided he isn't caught in the act, he literally scorches the entire neighborhood for God knows how long. Because just how much mines has he hidden, exactly? Even apprehended, he can still make victims years afterward. There is no way to feel safe, as you pretty much have to comb out every square inch of the neighborhood...and you don't want to do that as just doing that might get you killed.



Land mines are also a terrorist weapon for a reason that has nothing to do with moral or ethics: the near impossibility to 100% clear a minefield. I mean...Belgium was a front line of the battles in both world wars (so over 80 (!) years ago). Well...just a few months ago, I heard that they had to evacuate about half a block because someone accidentally dug up a skeleton AND SOMETHING METALLIC in his garden. The chance that this was a dropped (and unexploded) bomb was just too high to be safe. Similar to mines: say your regiment sees strategic importance in laying out a mine field for...erm...some hypothetical reason that somehow doesn't make you a terrorist (feel free to come up with a reason...I honestly can't think of anyone besides terrorists doing it). It might serve its diabolical purpose in scaring the enemy, and the enemy is bad, so yeey. Okay...who will clean up that field?

You don't know? Yeah: me neither. The "our side" that is supposedly the good side that nonetheless uses land mines will at some point move out to another location. The enemy may or may not have casualties or injuries(1) and will be forced into another tactic, elsewhere. So in a matter of days, weeks at the most, both parties are somewhere else...WHILE THOSE MINES ARE STILL THERE AND DANGEROUS. No matter any kind of cease fire, surrender and peace talks, that mine field remains a trap for anyone stepping into it. And because that long run always runs much longer than the few days (weeks) that it serves a purpose, it's no coincidence that it's civilians who are the main casualties there.




(1): oh, right...I forgot: scaring your enemy is one aspect...but injuries can be much worse. I imagine it's not pretty to have to treat your fellow soldiers when he got shot, but either he's dead or he might recover after treatment. Land mines don't go for less than crippling, so forget about first aid: it's trying to comfort your fellow soldier when his feet and leg is brutally ripped from his body in less than a second after all was well. Not only wll he not recover, he'll be the burden upon his fellow enemies for as long as he's alive...


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## notimp (Feb 4, 2020)

google ngram on the use of the words terrorist/terrorism

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=terrorist,+terrorism&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1;,terrorist;,c0;.t1;,terrorism;,c0

When you are making an argument that lays into the ethics of war (or what today never would be called a war anymore because of legal/logistics), by using the emotial charge of the word terrorist, all that registers to me as is 'word was used as the new 'enemy' descriptor by the US after commie (and nazi) wouldnt do anymore'. To rectify their actions (going to war with iraq, ...).

Just saying. Not picking a fight.

edit: You can use the word terror (cultural concept of 'things you fear') as a control. You can search the german dataset, where the effect (hockeystick curve) is even more astonishing. (As germany wasnt so much confronted with terror attacks at the time, when the curve skyrocketed.)


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## notimp (May 22, 2020)

Trump withdraws USA from 'Open Skies' treaty (arms control treaty having been signed by 33 nations.):

src: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/us/politics/trump-open-skies-treaty-arms-control.html

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/21/politics/us-open-skies-arms-control-treaty/index.html

Blaming russia. For some reason.



> *'This is insane'*
> 
> "This is insane," tweeted Gen. Michael Hayden, the retired four-star general who served as former National Security Agency director, a former principal deputy director of national intelligence and was President George W. Bush's director of the CIA.




edit: The NYT speculates, that this might preempt the US also exiting the New Start treaty, that limits the number of atom bombs that both the US and russia are allowed to hold.


> Mr. Trump’s decision may be viewed as more evidence that he is preparing to exit the one major arms treaty remaining with Russia: New START, which limits the United States and Russia to 1,550 deployed nuclear missiles each. It expires in February, weeks after the next presidential inauguration, and Mr. Trump has insisted that China must join what is now a U.S.-Russia limit on nuclear arsenals.


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## Taleweaver (May 22, 2020)

Yeah...you can count on Trump to piss on everything the USA once stood for. If he abolishes the declaration of independence tomorrow, I'm sure his fan club will still defend him.


Still...I've got to wonder: is there any reason why this isn't a new thread? If there's a connection to land mines, I really don't see it.


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## notimp (May 23, 2020)

Because this impacted a few other armament treaties that the US left under Trump as well, that I didn't bother to look up.  So this isnt an isolated incidence, this is a pattern - with 'Open Skies' being the most prominent they left this year.

Which also points at two things:

1. This isn't Trump doing that kind of stuff, its republican party military advisers/strategists.Simply because I wouldnt wager, that Trump has enough braincells to fry a stick of butter at this point, so international military treaty negotiations is way out of his wheelhouse.

2. China is still slated to overtake the US as the worlds largest economy in the next five years, so this sort of posturing is kind of expected. Also if this is a precursor to exiting the new START agreement, we are right bang in the middle of what Chomsky pointed out as a major danger of our times for I think two years now.. 

So this is definitely something where you dont just point fingers in Trumps direction. 

That said, the move came with a diplomatic announcement (a pseudo threat), where the diplomat that delivered it, stumbled his way through the speech, trying to make it menacing - so no one said, that whatever this becomes in the end is a great strategy, that this administration very much believes in... 

For now, imho, it just gave russia more leaverage over europe, which - thanks, always appreciated...*sarcasm*


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## notimp (May 26, 2020)

Trump administration discussed conducting first U.S. nuclear test in decades
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...05c904-9c5b-11ea-b60c-3be060a4f8e1_story.html


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## JuanBaNaNa (May 26, 2020)

Very, very very very very very deeeeeeeeeeeeep inside of me






On the other hand I'm worried about animals in that natural environment.
Not so much about people though.


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## notimp (May 26, 2020)

JuanMena said:


> On the other hand I'm worried about animals in that natural environment.


I hope you like the lightweight ones. Insects mostly...



> Humans account for about 36 percent of the biomass of all mammals. Domesticated livestock, mostly cows and pigs, account for 60 percent, and wild mammals for only 4 percent.
> 
> The same holds true for birds. The biomass of poultry is about three times higher than that of wild birds.
> [...]
> ...


src: https://www.ecowatch.com/biomass-humans-animals-2571413930.html

I think you worrying, and maybe giving donations to an animal rights advocacy NGO will do nothing at all, and is almost entirely a product of - empathy? Towards animals that to a large extent cant feel an entire range of 'social' emotions, humans do.

If beastiality is outlawed in most countries, why isnt animal advocacy? Touching on the pleasure principle that drives both behaviors, they are basically the same.. 

But this is just me trolling.. Because I'm bored at the moment. 

My actual opinion on this is informed mostly by the thought that every yellow press paper has to have an animal section for old people that feel left alone. I dont know why learning that had such an impact on my world view, but strangely it had.. 

I also know that 'earth mother' is kind of a psychological 'drive', or a common trope, that some people need to act out to feel fulfilled, its kind of a universal trope, thats like a constant in human history.

Every time I read about the (world famous) Zoo close by where I live, it has to be articles about new babies, of that species, or another being born there, being written about it. So cute. Same pleasure principle as beastiality. 

Also love me the 'extinction' crusaders.  More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species, that ever lived on Earth are estimated to have died out. If you make that your 'cause' in life - something like Sisyphus comes to mind.


I'm overly confrontantional for no reason. Again, bored.  But the concepts I bring up are cheeky, because they are logical. 

edit: Also some part of me also knows, why biodiversity matters. Maybe I should listen more to that from now on...


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## Taleweaver (May 26, 2020)

notimp said:


> Trump administration discussed conducting first U.S. nuclear test in decades
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...05c904-9c5b-11ea-b60c-3be060a4f8e1_story.html


So they talk about it based on allegations they make themselves...right.

And of course they'll claim it's coincidence this happens to coincide with over 100'000 corona deaths in the USA. Any sensical man would have taken his responsibility and quit. But instead he's just creating more fearmongering to deflect attention.


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## weatMod (May 26, 2020)

great,  where can i pick some up for the front yard?


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## notimp (May 27, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> And of course they'll claim it's coincidence this happens to coincide with over 100'000 corona deaths in the USA. Any sensical man would have taken his responsibility and quit. But instead he's just creating more fearmongering to deflect attention.


Dont think this has reached 'word on the street' level yet, nor that its meant to. ("Yay, nuclear tests" shouldnt be very popular with people. Also, the US is threatening, so who should they be afraid of? The people they are supposed to vote for?) Also while some of it might be said with the coming election in mind, most of this should fall under foreign politics, which famously no (US) american ever is interested in. As for the potential tests, I think they can find  a remote atoll..  (Shouldnt impact domestic politics.) I maintain, that this very likely is not Trump in action. But a political line of thought that has far broader support than whatever the president thinks of on a daily basis.

The president btw.is currently blabbing something about him declaring 'houses of worship' essential, which he has no legal mandate, or ability to do. Thats more alongside his intellectual capabilities. International armament negotiations not so much. I always maintained that the way to deal with Trump is, to give him a sockpuppet issue to deal with (Ambassador Dennis Rodman?), or send him on a representative mission, or something - so he doesnt accidentally stumble upon something important.

("Jarred is solving the middle east crisis" like..  )

That the 'swamp' takes over is a feature and not a bug in this instance..

(If Trump starts to tweet out nuclear threats...  )


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## pustal (May 30, 2020)

Cylent1 said:


> Who cares....  If we send our kids to war you better make damn sure they have what they need because do you honestly think the other side is gonna care about rules?  Didn't think so.



Because they are indiscriminate weapons. Half of the world signed the Ottawa Treaty to get rid of these horrendous devices. They stay in place long after conflicts are over and kill and mutilate innocents indiscriminately.

If you only think selfishly, than you should think that using cruel weaponry incites adversaries not caring about conventions as well and leveling up.


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