# Real Money Trading and Virtual Economics?



## Ryukouki (Apr 4, 2014)

​I can imagine that a good majority has played an MMO game at some point in their lives, whether it was _World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Star Wars: Galaxies/The Old Republic, _or any title that dealt with virtual economies. And, if you've participated in those games, you've surely seen the gold bots or hacked accounts telling you, the player, to go to their site somewhere in the shadier parts of the internet, and purchase gold to make your character stronger. It definitely felt like a good discussion point today as I had a really lengthy conversation with a few buddies who wanted to try their hand at this illicit trade, but did not really understand its consequences.​​[prebreak]Continue reading[/prebreak]​​So what exactly is the real money trade? The real money trade is a way to illicitly obtain goods, whether they be virtual currency or in the form of equipment, to expedite the game process. It is often mentioned as a forbidden activity in most game Terms of Service. People would essentially pay real money to fund a virtual currency, which is not unlike those in-app purchases that are on some mobile games. The only difference is that these illicit markets are often unregulated and even warrant safety concerns.​​I got into a discussion with a few friends the other day, and one of them mentioned wanting to get a head start and purchase the game currency online. I was highly against the idea as it took away from the fairness of the game by giving him an advantage that most players typically did not have. I mentioned the security concerns he could be faced with, the fact that his characters might be removed from the game if he went through with the purchase, and how it could be perceived as an unfair advantage. And then he argued with me (in broad generalizations) about how he was working full time, did not get to enjoy a lot of the game's content fast enough, and that it was no different than making an in-app purchase, and that by purchasing gold he was helping the virtual economy. Which leads me into the next discussion point about how this illicit trade has ruined many game economies.​​The illicit trading of currencies and equipment has ruined many an MMO. There is no doubt that these markets will continue to exist and flourish so long as MMOs exist, but the impact that these black markets have had on the virtual economy is significant. These problems include currency inflation, equipment becoming much more expensive, and things being harder to come by. There are players out there who play the market economy in the games, people like me, and I have often felt occasions in which things became harder to operate with when these bots ran the market. In a sense, that is what happened with the original launch of _Diablo III, _which introduced the Auction House system, a feature that has since been removed due to player criticism. At some point later in the launch of the game, Blizzard for whatever reason introduced the Real-money Auction House (RMAH) that (speaking broadly) legalized purchasing gold. Currency became inflated. Money had no real worth anymore as a player could spend about six dollars and get dozens of millions of the currency. It became pointless to play the actual game as a player could sit on the Auction House and just purchase items to make their character better. Characterize that with weak itemization, a poor story, and lack of true customization, and you have a horde of angry Blizzard fans. The economy was ruined as some loot became tied to a physical worth, which could be hundreds of millions of gold or billions of gold. By saturating the economy with these real money markets, the ordinary players who played casually were the ones who were hurt the most.​​So, bringing this back to the community. GBAtemp is a community that likes to discuss issues that are, to say the least, on the gray side of things. Has anyone here participated in these illicit trades, and if you have, what did you learn from it? Do you find that it helped your gameplay? Do you find that participating in these markets had ruined the game economy? For those of you who chose not to, were there temptations to participate in the market? If you were tempted, what was the most tempting thing that almost got you into the trade? Humor me with your comments, and keep it civil, please!​


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## chavosaur (Apr 4, 2014)

I used to bot the shit out of runescape and sell the gold I made for cash to buy video games. And I have no regrets. 

I also know a certain someone (I'll wait to see if they reply here or not) who makes a substantial amount of money from selling Shiny Pokemon. I'll wait for them to share their story though


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## stefer (Apr 4, 2014)

I find that : 

It brings an unfair advantage
It's risky
Gold spam bots are very annoying
Gold sellers usually farm items that i require, or camp monsters that i need a drop from.  They overcamp things and it makes it that much harder to get what you need to get ahead.
They do break the economy, making items selling for more and more gold.  The more virtual currency on the market, the pricier gear and consumables get (inflation), and the harder it is for those who don't cheat (buy virtual currency with real money).  Yes, i consider it cheating.  You might not feel like it, but you're cheating the system, and making the experience for other players, slightly worse for every purchase.


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## Arras (Apr 4, 2014)

What, no mention of Hat Fortress 2 and its insane trading?


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## FAST6191 (Apr 4, 2014)

Never paid for an in game item (black, grey or "legit") and doubt I ever will, partially because I am a leech and partially because any game that basically forces it I will probably dismiss*. However I find the limited economic systems that arise in situations like those described to be fascinating from a lay economist perspective. Likewise I reckon micropayments and the like have a huge future, even if it is not going to be me doing it.

*depending upon how you feel about demos there may be things that can be said.

As you mention most attempts seem to end up incredibly broken, or maybe broken in the longer term which could be a more interesting prospect (if you consider most of your profits to be made in the short term near launch....). Now I might have to question whether such things can work short of a full economic model that mirrors reality. However things like http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-most-absurdly-expensive-items-in-online-gaming/ amuse me.

Going a bit further it seems a lot of trade like this is not against TOS for "reasons" but because it is a legislative nightmare to manage -- small and big value exchanges, across country borders, said exchanges being of variable tax status, often conducted with a fair level of anonymity...

I am not quite sure where I am heading with this so I will leave it there for now, I will say though that it is a pity things have not taken off properly.


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## grossaffe (Apr 4, 2014)

let's not forget the issue of gold-farming sweatshops.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/05/26/chinese-prisoners-used-as-gold-farmers/


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## Gahars (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm for hollering for a dollering (I'm a Turk of the mechanical variety), but I think this sort of thing should stay out of games as much as possible. When you put serious cash on the line, the game has to get serious, and so fun is often the first casualty. It becomes all about the payout rather than the play-out.

Not to mention that developers now have to design and balance the game to cater to the market first and foremost - see Diablo 3, where the game basically had to be online-only for the RAH to function.


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## Sefi (Apr 4, 2014)

When I played FFXI I knew others that used bot programs and/or bought virtual currency.  These kind of things were kept as secret as possible because they could potentially lose their account if found out.  Plus, those that used bots or bought gil (the game's virtual currency) were looked down upon by most of the other players and treated poorly quite often.  It was seen as an unfair advantage in a game where obtaining large amounts of money took real blocks of time to accumulate.  You could spend entire days devoted to only getting richer, or you could spend that $20 for virtual money that might have taken you a month to get legitimately.

At the time when I played the game, players that did these things had a huge impact on the game and other player's gaming experience.  Those that bought gil were ensuring the RMT (Real Money Trade) industry revenue which in turn encouraged them to keep at it and ramp their tactics up.  Prices on items would be much higher then they would have without the RMT's influence on the market.  Bot users could claim monsters much easier making it extremely difficult for a non-bot user to claim.  They could also change their movement speed, and move their character around on an X/Y/Z axis to get on certain parts of the map (this could save them great amounts of time).  Real players would usually bot the "king" monsters of the game that dropped items that you couldn't sell, but were still highly sought after.  RMT players loved to use claim bots on monsters that dropped items that sold well on the auction house, so if you wanted those items you either had to devote entire days/weeks/months trying to beat them... or pay an inflated price for the item knowing there was a high chance your gil was going to the very people you hated, RMT.

Now, 90% of the time myself and most other players could not stand RMT in the game.  However some great fun came when you found out you could either ruin their plans, kill their characters, or just piss them off.  I still recall one known RMT player calling me a bunch of broken english slurs one day when a friend and I decided to kill the monsters he was killing over and over (literally every day, 24/7 in a small section of the game).  It was great watching his character suddenly disappear due to us calling a GM on him.


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## calmwaters (Apr 4, 2014)

I have never had good experiences with these sorts of trades. There's a reason there's an in game currency: people can spend it instead of shelling out real money. Of course it would let me advance quicker in the game, but what's the rush? It's not like I have to finish this game before I start another one. But I would prefer it if my progress wasn't slowed down because of things like this.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 4, 2014)

calmwaters said:


> but what's the rush? It's not like I have to finish this game before I start another one.



Most of the better content, guild arrangements, features... seem to be reserved for those at the end game, personally I would probably call it bad game design but that is perhaps a different discussion. In some ways it is similar to the generating pokemon thing we had a while back, though here it is a fairly long slog and some minor skill involved which changes things a tiny bit.



calmwaters said:


> There's a reason there's an in game currency: people can spend it instead of shelling out real money.


Personally I saw in game currency as a reflection of real world practices and games tend to like to reflect the real world, or some facet of it.


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## Taleweaver (Apr 4, 2014)

I wished there were more options on this poll. That way, my vote would have been "no, and I don't give a damn about players doing it".

Let me start by saying I don't play MMO's. I've attempted Icarian, but at some point it dawned on me that whatever you tried to grow on your island was essentially just plundering ground for higher ranked players. Perhaps unlike other players, I don't feel the need to overspend other players in a game that's pretty much or actually impossible to master without spending real money. I can't blame the makers that much either, as free to play games need to get their income from somewhere. All I can say is that I wasn't one of them.
In that regard, I've got to agree with Gahars:


Gahars said:


> When you put serious cash on the line, the game has to get serious, and so fun is often the first casualty. It becomes all about the payout rather than the play-out


 
Diablo 3 is a different matter (and I think WoW - which I played for perhaps half an hour total on a former girlfriend's account - uses the same system). To me, the game is fun for the questing, beating enemies, looting and gradually getting better gear. It has to be mentioned that 'gradually' is sort of a logarithmic curve (the first upgrades come easy, but it takes longer and longer...to the point that increasing one bit amounts to spending near infinity hours in the game), but that doesn't matter much to me. To take a lesson from sleeping dogs of all games: I don't care if the reward for beating up opponents is on a skill level that's already maxed out if the actual beating up of opponents is fun in itself. In other words: I'm not diablo'ing for the loot but because I want to wallpaper some walls with the blood of my foes.
I think I traded some gold or silver for some rare item once, and felt kind of disappointed. What was the point of trading if I could just hunt for stuff myself? Sure enough, it would take longer. But if that was to become a drawback, that would have been an indication I wouldn't play the game anymore.


I admit it: I don't GET people who pay for upgrades with real money, let alone the prices they sometimes pay. I honestly don't. It strikes me as exactly the same as going to a movie theater, buying a ticket, giving it to a bystander, let him watch the movie and receive the ticket back at the end with maybe an 'I was there'-certificate.
"But Taleweaver...I don't have time to game that much!"
"Yeah...me neither. But that seems like a good reason not to play that game, rather than paying TWICE."
"But I _am_ going to play. I just don't want to do all the boring grinding stuff."
"So in a way, you're rewarding game developers who make their games intentionally boring at times?"
"Y...no! I mean...sheez! You just don't get it!"
"It's about status, isn't it? You want to have the highest level or highest armor or whatever on the server?"
"Well...yeah. Sort of."
"Ah, okay. So you're just 'sort of' pathetic. I get it.  But hey...at least you're doing charity work."
"Huh?"
"Gold and item farming is actually a profession now. From what I gather, they're mostly poor people who need that income to survive. And while it's not exactly a top-end job, I'm sure it beats being a beggar on the streets. "
"..."

Okay, that last part may be a bit harsh. But I can't but applaud chavosaur for making real money for playing video games (hah! and I thought only tournament pros would be payed to play  ). Honestly...if there are gamers who are willing to pay for not having to play a game...Who is wrong, exactly?


Hmm...come to think of it, in a way I _have_ engaged in virtual economy. I honestly don't give a shit about those steam trading cards you unlock at random points in random games, so I sell them all. Everyone seems to do it, as those things tend to earn 0.1 or even 0.01 euros a piece. But there must still people out there buying them, as it's actually filling up my account. Not fast and no way enough to make call it a profitable hobby, but at least I've netted two indie games right now.
(but God, if there's one thing that the steam store needs it's a way to bulk sell all that garbage at market price).


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## Deleted-236924 (Apr 4, 2014)

Taleweaver said:


> Hmm...come to think of it, in a way I _have_ engaged in virtual economy. I honestly don't give a shit about those steam trading cards you unlock at random points in random games, so I sell them all. Everyone seems to do it, as those things tend to earn 0.1 or even 0.01 euros a piece. But there must still people out there buying them, as it's actually filling up my account. Not fast and no way enough to make call it a profitable hobby, but at least I've netted two indie games right now.
> (but God, if there's one thing that the steam store needs it's a way to bulk sell all that garbage at market price).


 
Haha same, I got GTA San Andreas solely from selling those Steam trading cards from last summer.


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## Kayot (Apr 4, 2014)

I used Marcoquest to farm zones that no one used anymore. It was easy to get hundreds of thousands of platnums in a night, however what I'd farm most often was drops for crafting. Some of the high end crafts require a lot of dropped items.

For me, it was to ease the annoyance of finding hundreds of drops that had a rate of 1% or less. If it was camping a room for that one super ultra rare drop, or getting a thousand bear @s$es for some obscure quest item, it was time consuming and I was in college. My only other option was to join guilds that required full time weeks (40+ hours). I'm casual and I wanted to enjoy my play time.

I'm totally against buying virtual goods with real money. The coins I farmed where used to buy in game goods from merchants. I wouldn't buy from the bazaar since it would cause massive inflation. Besides, if I wanted the item they were selling... I could just farm it


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## Hells Malice (Apr 5, 2014)

The idea that it's risky is actually bullshit unless you are talking about risky to your own wallet (however there is a site that is very well constructed that is now used for general person to person virtual items/currency selling).
The fact is that
-You will not be banned. The chance of it happening are as great as being struck by lightening, twice.
-You will not bring any harm to your account unless you're a moron and give them your password (some sites actually offer this method where they log into your character to pass the gold)
-However if you purchase through paypal and they don't deliver? You're literally fucked. Paypal will side with the  seller no matter what. It's impossible to get your money back other than through a chargeback and those are a total pain in the ass and generally not worth the effort. Most other payment methods will get your credit card information rightly stolen.

Now I clearly and obviously HAVE bought gold before. Sure, plenty of times. Plenty of games. Why? Well I hate being poor. It's really as simple as that. More often than not I buy potions or weapons and armor. It's not actually too often I spend the money buying player items, but hell it's not as though I avoid that either.
Honestly most MMOs these days are PvE focused. Not only that, but there's so much bind-on-pickup bullcrap in games that MOST endgame gear is gotten through raids and not bought with currency.
PVP focused MMOs like Ragnarok Online I suppose you could argue buying gold gives a huge advantage, and i'd probably agree.  But even then, i've roflstomped kids in amazing gear with my subpar gear. Skill still dominates gear in that game.
I can't think of any other PVP focused MMOs. Casual MMOs like WoW or Rift, as I said before, their toptier gear is entirely PvP or raid gear.
Most F2P MMOs are already pay2win so I really don't care if someone buys gold. The game is already decided by who spends more already.

However if it was possible to kill gold trading (without screwing up the entire trade mechanic like Runescape had previously done, ruining the trade economy), I would greatly prefer it. Goldsellers are a plague and I would gladly give up the ability to buy gold if it meant never having those idiots ruin the economy. Sadly a solution is just impossible. The best things MMOs have come up with IS what I mentioned before, making endgame gear BoP or earned with a tedious-to-get alternate currency.


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## Hedgehogofchaos (Apr 5, 2014)

I have to say EVE Online is one example of successful RMT implantation in an MMO. Basically you can buy a PLEX (Pilot License Extension) from CCP games. This PLEX is a token worth 30 days of game time and can be traded on the open market. Although in Eve the most expensive ships with the most expensive gear tend to provide marginal advantages of much cheaper alternatives. Also destruction of you ship is permanent, and some of your modules will drop for the victor of the fight to loot.

I think allowing players to trade currency for game time purchased by others is a great way to legitimize RMT.

As well PLEX can be used for other things such as tickets to events, donations to charity, and cosmetic items. They had a limited offer allowing the trading of PLEX for a new GPU in the past.

Additionally, players may pay for out of game related services (website hosting, TS server hosting, article writing, forum signature creation, etc.) using ISK (in game currency)

While this hasn't completely eliminated RMT, I'm sure it has put a damper to it.


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## PlayerAuctions (Apr 8, 2014)

Very interesting discussion. I created an account on gba _specifically_ for this thread.

My name is Jake, and I am effectively the equivalent of PlayerAuctions' Managing Director.

Rather than craft a lengthy "position" on why I think RMT (specifically secondary markets for games) can be a good/positive thing (if don't right), I'll just stick my neck out for chopping: Ask me (almost) anything.

Could be fun.

Cheers,
jake


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## Ryukouki (Apr 8, 2014)

PlayerAuctions said:


> Very interesting discussion. I created an account on gba _specifically_ for this thread.
> 
> My name is Jake, and I am effectively the equivalent of PlayerAuctions' Managing Director.
> 
> ...


 

Oh wow, this is an interesting find. Nice to see you around here, Jake, and I'm very surprised that my discussion reached out to you guys. I have heard about your operations and am familiar with some of the details, but please feel free to explain this if you can.

RMT is not exactly a purely legitimate business by any means. How do you guys protect your customers and in the case that a customer is banned for buying currency on your site, how is this dealt with? I see that you guys have a lot of sellers on board, but do transactions that take place get refunded to the buyer in the case of a banning? Your site makes a lot of bold claims about having high tech security and bank vault level encryption, but how does that stop the seller from getting away with the funds? Can't they just not deliver?

For me, I'm just curious at this point, but how do you guys justify RMT to a customer who plays a game? What reasons could be given to get people on board? Security? Ease of access? Reliability?


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## PlayerAuctions (Apr 8, 2014)

Ryukouki said:


> Oh wow, this is an interesting find. Nice to see you around here, Jake, and I'm very surprised that my discussion reached out to you guys. I have heard about your operations and am familiar with some of the details, but please feel free to explain this if you can.
> 
> RMT is not exactly a purely legitimate business by any means. How do you guys protect your customers and in the case that a customer is banned for buying currency on your site, how is this dealt with? I see that you guys have a lot of sellers on board, but do transactions that take place get refunded to the buyer in the case of a banning? Your site makes a lot of bold claims about having high tech security and bank vault level encryption, but how does that stop the seller from getting away with the funds? Can't they just not deliver?
> 
> For me, I'm just curious at this point, but how do you guys justify RMT to a customer who plays a game? What reasons could be given to get people on board? Security? Ease of access? Reliability?


 
> How do you guys protect your customers and in the case that a customer is banned for buying currency on your site, how is this dealt with?
Excellent question. PlayerAuctions is very different from your typical run of the mill "gold selling site", which you can easily classify as "black market". Those companies go into the game, spam in-game channels, camp spawns, bot, etc. etc. Because they go into the game and produce the assets themselves, they become a part to the game developer's contract. PlayerAuctions is considered a "grey market", in that there is no actual legislation on the legality of secondary markets. In fact, some game developers actively encourage secondary markets for their games (check out the eBay section for Magic the Gathering). PlayerAuctions is based on the c2c business model (consumer to consumer) or what we like to call, player to player trading. Each user is responsible for their own trading activity when it comes to any contractual agreements they may have with third parties. We do not enforce third party contracts since we are not a party to them. In the event that a user is banned from the game publisher, this becomes a legal matter between that individual user and the game publisher, who has essentially infringed on their right to trade goods which they either produced or had dominion over. This has already happened in one of the world's largest game markets S. Korea (reference: http://www.pixelsandpolicy.com/pixels_and_policy/2010/01/south-korean.html). In Summary, two gamers sued the makers of Lineage 2 who were banned for real world trading. The courts ultimately sided with the consumers citing customer rights. In this case, the consumers won against the developers, wherein Korean courts ruled that the Publisher's TOS and EULA were unenforceable and against public policy.


> I see that you guys have a lot of sellers on board, but do transactions that take place get refunded to the buyer in the case of a banning?
This is something that rarely happens on our platform primarily because unlike black markets, most of our trades occur between actual gamers. We have a few "professional" service providers on the platform, but we enforce strict quality standards before allowing them to continue trading with our users. In the rare event a banning does occur, again it is between the user and the publisher. Alternatively, we have seen users communicate this issue with the seller directly, and many times the seller will re-deliver or offer some sort of recompense as a measure of retaining loyal customers.

PlayerAuctions however will refund users who have had bannings as a result of actions taken by the seller however.

> Your site makes a lot of bold claims about having high tech security and bank vault level encryption, but how does that stop the seller from getting away with the funds? Can't they just not deliver?

No, this is not possible on our platform. While our business model is based on eBay, we take it a step further by deploying a proprietary escrow service which is specifically geared towards digital assets. We have been doing this since 1999, so anyone who claims they know how to do it better are either lying, or mad geniuses :-) As a result we are able to secure payment for the seller and protect against unauthorized payments & chargebacks, and we do not disburse payment to the seller until the buyers acknowledge delivery.

As it is, our platform has a 0.2% average monthly fraud loss rate. And at last closure, 97% of orders that have passed through our systems have gone on to successful completion with both parties leaving positive feedback for each other. A lot of our new users comment on our Trustlink page, we are also highly rated with the Business Consumer Alliance.

> For me, I'm just curious at this point, but how do you guys justify RMT to a customer who plays a game? What reasons could be given to get people on board? Security? Ease of access? Reliability?


RMT has a negative connotation as it is so closely related to black markets. I peg PlayerAuctions closer in line with actual "gaming secondary markets" and "gaming services industry". This idea of "it ruins the spirit of the game" and "fairness" are all old ideologies that have been propagated by people who fail to realize that it was simply a method of control for game publishers to reduce competition to their own revenue generation. There were other issues of bad behavior from black markets which I recognize, but this is the beauty of secondary markets. On a player to player trading platform, sellers can make their own price points, rather than selling to black markets for 30% of the actual value of the commodity, and buyers therefore get on average 30% savings as well. Not only this, but a true player to player platform reduces in-game spam, hacking, and all those other things which negatively impact our virtual worlds. By taking business away from black market traders who engage in such practices, you effectively put them out of business, by supporting honest, player to player marketplaces like PA.

Not only this, but there are inherent benefits to secondary markets. The first is psychological, in that something innately powerful happens when you allow a user to ascribe value to their gameplay. You become vested in that game. Secondly, secondary markets exist due to the way games are designed. The dynamics of which create a demand for secondary markets. If you have something so unappealing as repetitive, grinding gameplay, can you not expect gamers to want to bypass that unpleasant element so their interest in the game world can be retained? Thirdly, this also boils down to resource capacity. People in general have two resources at their disposal: time, and money. Some gamers are rich in time, and therefore can spend hours upon hours getting the "true nature of the game by grinding their way to success". If they enjoy it, more power to them. However some of us actually want our college degrees, or have full time jobs, or families, and therefore may not be rich in time as a resource. The basic goal of gameplay is entertainment, and playing to "win" so to speak. If RMT were off the map, then players who are poor in time as a resource are arguable "playing to lose" because they ultimately cannot keep up with gamers who are rich in time. This, I would argue, is unfair. Game publishers effectively isolate and alienate a large portion of gamers for which they could actually acquire/retain, by allowing them to enhance their gameplay and to dictate what the experience is like with regards to how they can keep up in game.

As for our platform specifically, well... we have high aspirations of creating an environment where people feel safe and secure to trade their gaming assets, both digital and tangible. I can confidently say, that we are presently the largest c2c exchange for Western gaming markets. And with my taking things over in October, the focus of the business has been to move away from being a "tech platform" and more in line with being a "Customer centric business", hence... why I'm here engaging with communities. I love doing this. Digital asset exchange has been what has made China & Korea the largest gaming markets worldwide. Game publishers recognize that their audiences may not be so keen on restrictive subscription models, and instead allow gamers themselves to define their own gameplay experience. This is something that has been picking up momentum in the casual gaming space, and as you can see is migrating into more mainstream models (such as what we saw with Diablo 3... which is an example of the wrong way how to do secondary markets, but that is a different topic altogether). We are pretty rad, an international team, we run lean (only about 50 of us work on PA), and we really care about reaching critical mass for users worldwide who love to trade.


Hope this answers your questions. I'm open for an interview if you guys would like to engage this further.

jake


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## Hells Malice (Apr 8, 2014)

Oh hey cool. I didn't mention the name but I was referring to PlayerAuctions when I mentioned "however there is a site that is very well constructed that is now used for general person to person virtual items/currency selling".
Awesome site that i've had nothing but success from.

Nice to see you here. Definitely didn't see that coming.


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## DSAndi (Apr 8, 2014)

Real Money trade or pay to win destroys a lot games. Even a lot Mmorpgs died or bacame less attractive because of it.
In my opinion someone who buys items or ingame currency with real money is just a cheater. Thouse ppl have a lot excuses why to do it in the end they only want get an advatage vs normal players because they are unable or just to stupid to do it legally.
Same goes for bot users. Why they even want to play that game if the most time a computer plays for em ? A lot bots are also used to farm items and in game currency. So every person that sells such things in big scale is using bots or buy thouse things from bots.
Bots are quite anoiying they also destroy the game experience for normal players, because they block hunting grouds.
Take the infamous Lineage2 and log in to a server you see so many bots in the quests hunting grounds u cant even finish thouse quests and if it takes quite a while.
They even reduced drops and stuff but this is only hurting normal players and so they loose a lot players.

So yeah i think in game currency buyers, -sellers and also bot users are retarded low life people. Because they are the reason a lot games die or get destroyed.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 8, 2014)

DSAndi said:


> Real Money trade or pay to win destroys a lot games. Even a lot Mmorpgs died or bacame less attractive because of it.
> In my opinion someone who buys items or ingame currency with real money is just a cheater. Thouse ppl have a lot excuses why to do it in the end they only want get an advatage vs normal players because they are unable or just to stupid to do it legally.
> Same goes for bot users. Why they even want to play that game if the most time a computer plays for em ? A lot bots are also used to farm items and in game currency. So every person that sells such things in big scale is using bots or buy thouse things from bots.
> Bots are quite anoiying they also destroy the game experience for normal players, because they block hunting grouds.
> ...



Real money trading and pay to win are two very different concepts.

Real money trading = players trading with other players using real world money.

Pay to win = games, usually free to download and start playing, that have things the use pays the company to add to their character/setup, however the game devs make it in such a way that if you actually want to get on in the game then you have to buy things from them. Note also that not all free to play games do this or can be considered this.

"are unable to do it"
I have a busy life of staring at the ceiling most days. However I can memorise a list of weaknesses and time my clicks well should I find the need. With all the good content, guilds and whatever else being aimed at max level players and me being able to contribute to that world does it matter so much if I started with max level stuff? Now I agree we had a similar discussion for pokemon where my reasoning was "it takes basically no time and no skill to max a pokemon" where for the average online type game discussed here does take an enormous amount of time and at least a tiny bit of skill to time things properly.

Now real money trading, and the things that rise up with it, may well have rendered various games considerably less fun to play. I can well believe that, the question is was it bad game design to not allow for/account for that?

At various points I have chucked a high level weapon/money/whatever for free to newer players when I am a high level one, and I was not certainly not alone in that. What difference does it make if the low level user causes this to happen with some money?

Much of what you say may be true, I have certainly seen evidence for it and in some cases I would agree it is pretty distasteful, but you seem to be setting about explaining that in the wrong way.

On every seller uses bots....


grossaffe said:


> let's not forget the issue of gold-farming sweatshops.
> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/05/26/chinese-prisoners-used-as-gold-farmers/


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## DSAndi (Apr 8, 2014)

Im aware that rmt and ptw are different concepts but it is kinda the same problem. Booth destroy the game experience for ppl that do not pay real money for extra featurues.
In booth cases you get an advancement buy paying real money. In booth cases players and cheaters pay money to win over players who did not spend money.
While free to play games offer offical advancement for real money it still destroys the game or its a bad game by defalut if u have to pay more and more money to go on.
Pay to win in this case is a faulty gamedesign so ftp people cant get up with the advancement u get by paying money.

RMT is just the illegal path that also kills good games. 
Actually your lame excuse with playtime and game content at max lvl is something i herd so often and i dont agree with it.
If you have no time to play a time consuming game, then dont play it if u have doubts you cant compete. What gives u the right to ruin that game for other people by supporting RMT or bot use ?
Usually there is tons of content even in lower lvls and game is much more enjoyable if you accomplish something instead of just buying it. 
Also you find a lot friends that can also help you with different things.
If i take that infamous Lineage2 RMT and Bots destroyed it as long with the last updates. The lvl85+ content is boring like hell and for PVP you can do vs bots or ppl with other 3rd party software. Even most other stuff at higher lvls is rtm 2 win or ruined by bots. PVP events like ceremony of chaos u cant do because bots register faster then you and they do it for the rewards.
 Castle sieges ur cannonfooder for ppl with highly enchanted gear. Olympiad the same 1-2 shots ur dead.
At 85 u dont get much exp from hunting and even in a party is much more less. Not to mention the less drops because NC thinks Bots will stop farm if they dont get anything out.
So yeah all you do is log in do some quests for money and exp and then log out. No people needed at 85.
At lower lvls you can still see some of the old lineage2 much more fun but bots are everywhere.
When i started playing l2 10 years ago there where chinese farmers that changed to bots after a few updates.
I did well in L2 without spending real money (except from the monthly payment for game use back then) i got good equip and higher lvl chars and i did not spend much time either just casual play.
I may not have super equip like the RMT have but to play the game you wont need it. Only if u plan to pvp witch is only a very small part of the game.
To hit lvl 85 in L2 you only need 4 weeks of casual play now with all equip given and when 85 you have 50 mil adena just from the quests.

There is absolutely no excuse to use RMT in any game. People that do it are just cheaters and thouse are not players because they cant play without cheats.
If you like to play vs other cheaters you should do a game called cheater heaven and say u can win if u pay the most money.
I bet u will get rich that way (or not because u might spend all money u earned on some other game for cheating).
Then again how can a cheater create a game like that when he is not even able to play without cheats ?


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## FAST6191 (Apr 8, 2014)

You say illegal but in reality it is at best terms of service and user agreements, many of which can even be contested as the dude that ran the website to facilitate trades mentioned examples of.

I am not sure they are game destroyers -- demos are seen to lower sales with the reasoning seeming to be "well I got mine". If I can my clicking on monsters fix or something from the more limited version then it might still play. Certainly there badly made pay to win games and you provide a nice example of one, I might even say the vast majority are, but it is not a universal.

I can compete at the high levels though, there is still something to be said for not having a 1000 hour entrance exam for it mind you. Supporting a potentially damaging system would be a potential negative, how about if I purchased it from "responsibly sourced" locations (say someone thinking about quitting the game)? Alternatively I share an account with a friend.

"Usually there is tons of content even in lower lvls and game is much more enjoyable if you accomplish something instead of just buying it."

Content sure, the really good stuff still seems to be reserved for the higher levels in almost all things I have looked at, I wish it was not (or would if I played such games) but it is not. Accomplishing things is often more satisfying than buying it, however I tend not to have a great sense of accomplishment for simply levelling a character up (it was likely always going to happen as most games got rid of death penalties of real consequence, though that is not necessarily a bad thing).

I disagree on there being "no excuse" and I disagree on it being cheating. Likewise "can't play"... for a game to work it tends to want to test some skill, for most games it is clicking faster, more accurately, possibly taking into account damage types.... we have presumably all played games, and if I can demonstrate I can do said test of skill then the rest of it becomes busy work/grinding. There may well be a game some day that would take many hours of actual skills but basically all games I have ever played are not that.


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## PlayerAuctions (Apr 9, 2014)

deleted


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## PlayerAuctions (Apr 9, 2014)

DSAndi said:


> If you have no time to play a time consuming game, then dont play it if u have doubts you cant compete. What gives u the right to ruin that game for other people by supporting RMT or bot use ?


 

1) There is so much fail here, I don't even know where to begin.

You, are elitist. In fact, it is individuals with this type of attitude which make playing some MMO's thoroughly not enjoyable. Think about it. The goal of games is to relax, and entertain. Since when did gaming need to be exclusionary, or some exclusive club that some people could enter and some people couldn't?

It is narrow minded and entirely baffling to say... "Oh sorry, you have a full time job, and a family so you don't have 40 hours a week to play like I do to keep up in the game? Well too bad, go somewhere else". This is sad.

2) Sure, some people may abuse RMT to gain unfair advantages, but the fact of the matter is, you can have an overpowered character and still suck at the game. Having great gear does not automatically guarantee that you can own anyone. How do I know this? Because I love PvP, but I suck at it.  And anyone else who has ever bought something will tell you the same. If someone is so viscously overpowered, they are either one in a million, or it is a problem with overall game balance. Don't pigeonhole people or make hasty generalizations mate, logical fallacies are easy to spot here.

3) You may not even realize this, but you are actually a pawn contributing to an age old ideology that actually makes game publishers money. There are many reasons why a game publisher would not want to support their own secondary markets (lack of experience, lack of infrastructure, the low profit margins, etc. etc.), but the primary driver is that it makes them money. What happens when they ban all of those mega-gold spamming black market game accounts? Well, they obviously don't give up... they go and purchase more game CDkeys/licenses which directly profit the game publisher. I would estimate, that for a dying game like WoW, Blizzard makes a cool $100m in pure profit from the gold selling market. Like you, I am totally against mega-gold selling sites who engage in harmful practices to our virtual worlds, but I do not believe that all RMT is bad. In fact, we should be very careful about how we apply that term. For example, I wouldn't classify PA as pure "RMT" because it is realiticallty classified as "pure player to player trading".

So in essence, the game publishers are effectively using this idea to milk more money. It is greed. And it is easy to see this because they implemented the RMAH in Diablo 3, a non-subscription based game. How could they continue to make money off of Diablo 3 after all the gamers purchased their game licenses? By supporting a huge secondary market that was geared towards MEGA_GOLD sellers. Not only did they profit from the sales, but they also took the liberty of banning gold sellers just so they could turn even more profit, by said gold sellers purchasing even more CDkeys to stay in game and continue.

The gaming community is being raped by the game publishers, and many unfortunately do not see it. I do because I am in the industry and knows the ins and outs. When "Player to player trading" is more about bringing accountability to these game publishers, bringing about a more honest system of trading between users, and by forcing game publishers to go back to the drawing board and design creative "next level games" that don't propagate the same  game design systems over and over again. Think about almost every major AAA MMO that has been launched in the last decade. They all follow the same game design principal as WoW (with a few notable exceptions, such as EVE).

I believe at the end of the day, people really need to grasp what PlayerAuctions stands for, because it is so much more than just "RMT". We are not just another "gold selling site". We support honest trades between gamers, and not just digital assets, but tangible goods as well as digital downloads.

_With Player to player trading done right on PlayerAuctions, the end goal is to take business away from those companies which *DO* destroy our game world overrunning it with bots, and hacking/stealing player accounts, etc. etc. We are very much against this,_ and by supporting genuine player to player trade, there is a natural cap in the amount of gold available. It doesn't ruin economies, it cuts down on in game spam, it removes the need for botting and spawn camping, and overall it allows more people to enjoy the gameplay. I don't know about you, but my motto is "the more people to play with, the merrier".


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## DSAndi (Apr 9, 2014)

No im not a elitist, i have a full time job and a family and not much time to play games in general. Im also not in need to compete with others with equip or fashion style things.
I play the games for enjoyment and PVP is not a part of it for me in MMOs. I do PVP sometimes but i dont play that game for that only like most RMT users do.
I still can do well without RMT.
I have nothing between in game trades as they are part of the game. Usually a player would not trade a lot in game money or items for something that is not worth that price or item. 
I dont see in game trades as RMT.
RMT is for me you pay real cash for in game currency or special items. It does not matter to me if the seller is a player or some professional seller like you.
While i can understand that a player that played legally want to make some cash for the time he invested the customer in my eyes is a cheater.

Maybe i see things different but to me a game is much more fun if i can archieve something. Everyone can pull out his pocket and buy stuff.
Where is the fun in that buy a end level toon with best equip and pvp sometimes ? Then u get bored and try some other game ? Ok if that is what you want and waste your money.

When i started to play Videogames the highscore did say if u are a good or a bad player. dont know how you can see a good player and a bad player in MMOs.
I beleave how he plays and acts and not what super equip he has. Even if he has some rare stuff he can still tell the story how he got it.
If you buy a toon at end lvl with best stuff what did u see from the game ? Some ppl cant even play that toon even with best equip. What you tell ppl when they ask how u got that ?
Must be a great answer to say hey i bought it for 200$ and the other person thinks: " OMG what an idiot".

RMT is, no matter what, the cause that games get destroyed, bot use, Account hacking.

If the big gold sellers get banned and need to buy more CD Keys great i hope they spend a million $ and get nothing back in return.

Yeah good exsample with Diablo 3. That game was a big fail and the auction house did ruin it completely. However you didnt need to use it and at the short time i played that game i was not able to pvp vs other players. So no real reason to use it. Diablo was always about playing for better loot. Story wise its fast done and gets boring after the 3rd time.
So there is nothing more boring then to farm just gold in Diablo3 to buy better loot. Its much more fun if u kill boss mobs and get a nice drop.
However i played that Diablo3 for like 1-2 months then it got deleted from harddrive. Still sad i bought it when it came out.
I heard they did change the loot and stuff but the game just sucks Diablo 2 was much more better.

Player to player trading will only need a service to anounce that you have this item and want to trade for some other if this feature is not in the game they play.
If any real money is included i mark the buyer as cheater.
I also wonder how you can tell that selling player is not a bot user ?
Beside that i did not look at your website or what kind of service you offer.
If you are involved in RMT you know my opinion.
I also dont like offical in game purchases but can accept it as long it wont affect gameplay and balance.


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## PlayerAuctions (Apr 9, 2014)

DSAndi said:


> No im not a elitist, i have a full time job and a family and not much time to play games in general. Im also not in need to compete with others with equip or fashion style things.
> I play the games for enjoyment and PVP is not a part of it for me in MMOs. I do PVP sometimes but i dont play that game for that only like most RMT users do.
> I still can do well without RMT.
> I have nothing between in game trades as they are part of the game. Usually a player would not trade a lot in game money or items for something that is not worth that price or item.
> ...


 

You're arguments are full of logical fallacies and assumptions, and I can see that you have your own opinion which is based on how _you_ enjoy games. I'm glad you have a sense of enjoyment which comes from "achievement", even if it means you derive pleasure from grinding through games, and mindlessly plugging away through quest content that follows four basic game design elements (kill xx amount of this, escort this to this, deliver this there, or make this). That is it. Most game worlds are static (i.e. they do not change), and my actions generally do not affect the game world in any meaningful way (except EVE). 

To me, _this is boring_. But I still like certain elements of the game. Beyond this, maybe I play a specific game because all of my friends are there. So if I do not have the time to spend grinding through killing rabbits, or if I conversely do not _enjoy_ spending my time killing rabbits in order to keep up with the progression of my friends, i feel it is unfair for you to label me, or anyone else who engages in real money trade as cheaters.

The reality is most people who engage in RMT don't do it to get unfair advantages, but rather to a) keep their interest in the game going and b) to invest in progression where their time deficiencies do not allow them to. I am in fact, an authority on the matter, because where you might meet a few RMT'ers in your travels throughout your game play (i.e. those rare stereotypes), I interact with and service tens of thousands on a monthly basis. They are a class of people I would classify far from being "cheaters". 

But yes, you are an elitist. You believe that the system, or gaming society should be dominated only by those who can invest time in a time consuming game (as you said), and everyone who doesn't equally enjoy grinding through repetitive and monotonous game dynamics  as you do is essentially inferior and a cheater. That... is elitist.


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## DSAndi (Apr 10, 2014)

Sorry but all you write are excuses why u think RMT is good.  If you want to play a game that is grind based but wont spend time in that game why you want to play it anyway ?
To keep up with your friends that have time that you dont have ? Why that ? Your friends can help you so you dont fall back ... because MMOs are Teamgames for the most part.
An even if they help you to get the needed items you desire you will fall back in the level range. So what you will do then ? Let me guess you start botting or buy powerlvling.

I find your logic strange you play a game with content you dont like the grind, the errands, kill that amount of mobs to get this or that and pay real money to keep up with other people ?
How silly is that ? I play games i have fun with and i can enjoy.
So and because you like one aspect of the game ( the only that comes in my mind is PVP because u dislike all other stuff ) you go and buy some powerlvling and good items to kill players that did the long route and might loose the PVP because they lower lvl or have less goot items. Than you go out and say your the best.
Yes thats quite an archievement.  Or i would call it cheating. 
Its nothing different if u put in a code to get something you wont have usually or pay real money, beside ppl that pay money for such things are quite stupid in my opinion.

You have one big problem you search for a challenge but your unable to find it.
You think if you win PVP with bought items and lvls is something you could be proud of but in general you only earn disrespect when ppl see you bought your stuff with RMT.
Im sorry Mr. this is what i call a looser.

The challenge is to beat a game without cheating, get the highscore or play through the game with 1 credit.
I rather play with ppl that have less good items and less lvls then i, try to help em and together we progress and get better then with someone with high lvls and crasy equip.
Thouse leave the game soon after they realised the game has nothing for em ( because the content is boing to em) and in PVP they meet other cheaters that think they have to keep up or need the best equip to win. But then yeah they realise they cant even get up with the payed equip because they dont have the skills for it ( how can they know if they never play the game ?) or fight vs Bots or cheaters with bigger pockets.

Yes if you call me a elitist because i dont like cheating ok.
For me a cheater is not even a player and i disrespect em. 
If your not good in something you need to train and this is also guilty in the game world.
Cheating is some easy way but you dont learn anything from it.
I think thats also the problem with em they realise they good for nothing but when spending a chunk of money and win a few PVPs they have a few moments when they feel mighty.

Well mate im sorry for you.
You dont have even a clue how to play games and what games u like and asume me i support monotone gameplay ?
I say it again for you but more clear. If you dont have time for a time consuming game, dont like the grind, the content, the quests and think you cant keep up with other players, why you even play it then ?

If you ask me i dont play games i dont like even if my friends play it, because i dont have much time to play and no time to waste.
I also dont need to keep up with other people, because its a game and what happens in a game is meaningless. If im bad in a game ok maybe im better then the other player in a different game.
Its great when ur the best at one game sure but not if you cheated and everybody knows it.

I think you dont even know how much fun you can have with a game in different ways.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 10, 2014)

DSAndi said:


> *Sorry but all you write are excuses why u think RMT is good.*  If you want to play a game that is grind based but wont spend time in that game why you want to play it anyway ?
> To keep up with your friends that have time that you dont have ? Why that ? Your friends can help you so you dont fall back ... because MMOs are Teamgames for the most part.
> An even if they help you to get the needed items you desire you will fall back in the level range. So what you will do then ? Let me guess you start botting or buy powerlvling.
> 
> ...



On the bolded part we seem to be having a discussion/debate on the relative merits of the subject so that is to be expected -- one person says something they feel to true and some justifications, another person says why that may not be correct and provides reasons, another person or the original person says why those might not be correct or accepts they are and changes their opinion accordingly.....
You seem to be of the opinion that it is categorically wrong, straying even into calling people names but whatever, and frankly you can be that way -- it could well be that we just have different outlooks on life and games and we will not be able to reconcile them.

Sure the bulk of the "average" playtime for a given game might be grinding. However the higher level stuff where I get to fight big monsters will my friends, properly act as a team and consider strategies beyond click lots and chug health potions might be all I want out of the game. If, assuming I can have "responsibly sourced", RMT then what is the harm? To come at it another way I have a bunch of games I quite like but I will never play the online version of, is this wrong, have I not played the game? Personally I really do not care for basketball but I am quite happy to shoot hoops with friends, is that pointless? I have any number of board games where we "house rule" out boring aspects of the game or aspects of the game that kind of break it, is this wrong? Even beyond board games this happens -- in Goldeneye "don't shoot anybody that does not have a weapon" being something we played to at one point.

You speak of a sense of achievement-- grinding for me just means I staved off boredom and RSI. Going a bit further I have a very nice mouse and keyboard that I can program to do some basic actions, in this case apply all my buff spells/abilities. If I use them have I now used a bot? They are certainly faster and more accurate than I can be and certainly more consistent.

PVP tends towards max level in most games, in better ones it has a level/item level cap as well, and ends up having a fair skill component. Going back to the start thing then on PVE it can tend towards a level cap as well.

There are things to be said but you seem to have drawn lines in the sand and/or taken an extremist approach to things. Doing as such is a proverbial red rag to a bull as far as people that are inclined to debate things or colour outside the lines from time to time.

Or if you prefer -- you do what you want, done right I am likely not harming people and I will do what I like.


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## Hells Malice (Apr 11, 2014)

DSAndi said:


> *crap snip*


 
That is one gigantic blob of elitist bullshit.
I only skimmed but every line I did read was "blah blah my opinion is right and yours is wrong, because it is."
For one thing you seem to have no comprehension of what is even being talked about.

You're arguing much more with opinion than fact. You're attempting to force your playstyle on others and think that anyone with a different playstyle is wrong and stupid. That's juvenile honestly.

However i'd love to hear which MMOs you personally think are hurt most by RWT. Go on, list some. I'll shoot down every single one you throw at me if you'd like. I've played 'em all.


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