# The SEGA Genesis gets a premium throwback console in the form of the Mega Sg



## Cubuss (Oct 16, 2018)

Another one,


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## Beerus (Oct 16, 2018)

im here waiting for a retro gameboy advance mini classic


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## Chary (Oct 16, 2018)

This kicks the pants off the Genesis Mini, but man, the price. If I didn't have emulation, I'd be all over this thing.


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## duwen (Oct 16, 2018)

Cubuss said:


> Another one,


Another what? It's not another 'flashback' machine, nor is it another low quality clone running emulation - it's a 'system on a chip' style device that's virtually 100% compatible with all software and existing hardware and is also HD.

A quality device that I'd be tempted by if not for the fact that it's too expensive, and I already own 3 megadrives, a mega cd, and a master system that all look great on my 4k tv via rgb.


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## Davidchao23 (Oct 16, 2018)

Oh god, this actually excites me. I already own an ATGames Sega Genesis (a friend bought it for me), and to see a new one with a higher quality is already making my wallet shake.


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## RattletraPM (Oct 16, 2018)

The price's too high for me but man, that design is _slick!_
If I'll ever have some spare cash then I might actually buy one because my MD broke a while ago and I don't really mind it not being compatible with the 32X.


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## Cubuss (Oct 16, 2018)

duwen said:


> Another what? It's not another 'flashback' machine, nor is it another low quality clone running emulation - it's a 'system on a chip' style device that's virtually 100% compatible with all software and existing hardware and is also HD.
> 
> A quality device that I'd be tempted by if not for the fact that it's too expensive, and I already own 3 megadrives, a mega cd, and a master system that all look great on my 4k tv via rgb.



I instantly tough it was a "classic" "mini" but this actualy has a cartridge slot


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## Davidchao23 (Oct 16, 2018)

RattletraPM said:


> The price's too high for me but man, that design is _slick!_
> If I'll ever have some spare cash then I might actually buy one because my MD broke a while ago and I don't really mind it not being compatible with the 32X.



I agree with you about the price thing, I could buy a New 2DS with that money!


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## Deleted User (Oct 16, 2018)

Beerus said:


> im here waiting for a retro gameboy advance mini classic


already exists


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## DKB (Oct 16, 2018)

Damn, $200+. That's steep.


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## smileyhead (Oct 16, 2018)

Mega Segesis
Sega Nemesis
Gega Sigisis


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## DKB (Oct 16, 2018)

LiveLatios said:


> already exists



That shit costs as much as this damn console!


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## TyBlood13 (Oct 16, 2018)

At that price point, I really wish it came with some on board games. That being said, going out of the way to have the original sound chip and Sega CD support is such a huge plus that this thing might become the de facto way to play Genesis games in the future as analog video options become rarer. I might pick one up if it ends up working with the Genesis Everdrive.


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## Trash_Bandatcoot (Oct 16, 2018)

$200 and it's "compatible" with all games?
I've seen the Retron 5, promises the same, a few carts don't even work.

but god I hope this isn't yet another Android-based consoles.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Oct 16, 2018)

This is the company that made the Super Nintendo HD console. Y'all are nuts if you think this is just some knockoff from some unknown Chinese company.


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## Deleted User (Oct 16, 2018)

Trash_Bandatcoot said:


> $200 and it's "compatible" with all games?
> I've seen the Retron 5, promises the same, a few carts don't even work.
> 
> but god I hope this isn't yet another Android-based consoles.


if you read the hardware specs you'd notice that it's down to the grit hardware specifically made to run genesis games, and last i checked, the genesis CPU was too weak to run android, and the sound chip wasn't capable of much else


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## kumikochan (Oct 16, 2018)

Nah 2 expensive


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## Trash_Bandatcoot (Oct 16, 2018)

Memoir said:


> This is the company that made the Super Nintendo HD console. Y'all are nuts if you think this is just some knockoff from some unknown Chinese company.


Or you can also buy a Super NT Mini and -*actuallyhavethefeelingyouhaveadecentconsole*- and then you buy a Genesis adapter for it since this isn't emulation.
Boom, you don't need this.


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## Itzumi (Oct 16, 2018)

Finally a genesis not made by atgames.


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## TyBlood13 (Oct 16, 2018)

Trash_Bandatcoot said:


> Or you can also buy a Super NT Mini and -*actuallyhavethefeelingyouhaveadecentconsole*- and then you buy a Genesis adapter for it since this isn't emulation.
> Boom, you don't need this.


This is made by the same people as the NT and is also an FPGA, so it isn't emulation. Also SNES to Genesis adapters are notoriously bad.


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## Rahkeesh (Oct 16, 2018)

Still a bit disappointing they couldn't pack this and SNES plus PCE into one FPGA board, like how the original NT can run virtually every 8-bit console with custom firmware. But I suppose they make more money this way. Though I guess FPGAing the sound chip accurately would be a PITA.


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## Tony_93 (Oct 16, 2018)

$189.99... You can get a used Xbox One for less than that, or a used PS4 Slim for $200.


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## spotanjo3 (Oct 16, 2018)

Not into SEGA Genesis/Mega Drive games at all. They are not my things. Except Mega Man - The Wily Wars.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Oct 16, 2018)

Tony_93 said:


> $189.99... You can get a used Xbox One for less than that, or a used PS4 Slim for $200.


That's almost a cool story. Irrelevant, at that.


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## Tony_93 (Oct 16, 2018)

Memoir said:


> That's almost a cool story. Irrelevant, at that.


Sega just released a classic genesis collection in these systems for like $30.

Xbox One $150 
Sega Genesis Classics $30
Total $180 

You save around $20 and you can do a whole lot more than just play Sega Genesis games. Not so irrelevant after all


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## Hyro-Sama (Oct 16, 2018)

I hope the SuperNt will still be manufactured for awhile yet. I still haven't been able to purchase one yet. With hacked cores, these Analogue FPGA consoles are pretty much the ultimate experience for playing any and everything pre-PS1/N64/Saturn. I was an N64 kid growing up so I never really got to experience the SNES library.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Oct 16, 2018)

Tony_93 said:


> Sega just released a classic genesis collection in these systems for like $30.
> 
> Xbox One $150
> Sega Genesis Classics $30
> ...


Again, almost cool story. This isn't marketed for you, obviously. This makes the most sense to buy for those who still have the games and want to play them on fresh hardware that allows great HDTV compatibility. Not for the emulation junkies. So, yes, irrelevant.a

Add in the fact that by now most people have the current gen console they want. So, buying another one just for arguments sake is stupid. Yeah?


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## Kourin (Oct 16, 2018)

Just do a mini Sega Saturn and/or Dreamcast


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## Xzi (Oct 16, 2018)

Looks really slick, but at that price point it should be able to play games from more Sega systems.  An original Genesis or Dreamcast can be bought for half the price of this or less, and those are arguably the best two Sega systems.


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## Yepi69 (Oct 16, 2018)

For 200$ I can pick up a used Genesis and a Everdrive and still have left over money.


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## Tony_93 (Oct 16, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Again, almost cool story. This isn't marketed for you, obviously. This makes the most sense to buy for those who still have the games and want to play them on fresh hardware that allows great HDTV compatibility. Not for the emulation junkies. So, yes, irrelevant.a
> 
> Add in the fact that by now most people have the current gen console they want. So, buying another one just for arguments sake is stupid. Yeah?





Memoir said:


> Again, almost cool story. This isn't marketed for you, obviously. This makes the most sense to buy for those who still have the games and want to play them on fresh hardware that allows great HDTV compatibility. Not for the emulation junkies. So, yes, irrelevant.a
> 
> Add in the fact that by now most people have the current gen console they want. So, buying another one just for arguments sake is stupid. Yeah?





Memoir said:


> Again, almost cool story. This isn't marketed for you, obviously. This makes the most sense to buy for those who still have the games and want to play them on fresh hardware that allows great HDTV compatibility. Not for the emulation junkies. So, yes, irrelevant.a
> 
> Add in the fact that by now most people
> 
> ...


Which only adds to my point, the people who already have a current gen console and wanted to relieve some genesis nostalgia could just pay the $30 for the collection. The whole "buying an Xbox One" thing was from the perspective of someone who doesn't have modern hardware and would want to play some Genesis games in a modern TV.

You have to remember that the "classic mini systems" are made for the mainstream, casual people who will buy it, play it once or twice and ditch it on CL and that's why they are usually cheap and less than $100. As much as you want to believe that this is for people to play real carts on, people who will do that in a regular basis are the minority from all the people who buy the minis.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 16, 2018)

Chary said:


> This kicks the pants off the Genesis Mini, but man, the price. If I didn't have emulation, I'd be all over this thing.



Use this with a Mega Everdrive, and viola, best combo possible. Not to mention it's simulation, and not emulation, so accuracy will be near perfect.


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## TVL (Oct 16, 2018)

I was hoping there would be cores released for the Super NT that could run Mega Drive, NES, PCE etc. etc.

MiSTer seems to be something like that (but I know next to nothing about it, if the compability is even close to 100% with most/all/any of the different cores).

Anyway I would get something like that if it could run most old systems... but only one or two... not for me.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 16, 2018)

Nah, hard pass. It's incredibly easy to get RGB output out of a Mega Drive, it doesn't get any "better" than that. There's a reason why nobody's done anything like this before, and it's not the feasibility of the undertaking.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 16, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Nah, hard pass. It's incredibly easy to get RGB output out of a Mega Drive, it doesn't get any "better" than that. There's a reason why nobody's done anything like this before, and it's not the feasibility of the undertaking.



Rather this than another one of AssGames' efforts.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 16, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Rather this than another one of AssGames' efforts.


That's true, but it feels like you're paying for nothing.



TyBlood13 said:


> This is made by the same people as the NT and is also an FPGA, so it isn't emulation. Also SNES to Genesis adapters are notoriously bad.


Hardware emulation is still emulation, it's not original hardware, it's new hardware programmed to behave like old hardware.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 16, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> That's true, but it feels like you're paying for nothing.
> 
> Hardware emulation is still emulation, it's not original hardware, it's new hardware programmed to behave like old hardware.



Meh, I have a Super NT, I'm biased, and I sure as hell would rather have that than anything NES related. And the emulation (if you can call it that) is top notch, not a fan of using Higan at all. Combined
with an SD2SNES, never have to use carts again.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 16, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Meh, I have a Super NT, I'm biased, and I sure as hell would rather have that than anything NES related. And the emulation (if you can call it that) is top notch, not a fan of using Higan at all. Combined
> with an SD2SNES, never have to use carts again.


Oh, I'm sure it's excellent, with a good enough FPGA they can make an exact replica of the original chip, but it's still a replica. I don't roll with those superpowered replicas, my archival instinct tells me to just use the original hardware.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 16, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Oh, I'm sure it's excellent, with a good enough FPGA they can make an exact replica of the original chip, but it's still a replica. I don't roll with those superpowered replicas, my archival instinct tells me to just use the original hardware.



I can't be arsed to get a Framemeister or any other RGB mods on OG hardware, this makes it a helluva lot easier for me, IMO. HDMI out, no introduced overhead/lag (sans the one if the monitor), save state support (still in beta firmware), the list goes on. I mean, sure, OG hardware is all fine and good, but to me, it's just not worth it, the Super NT is the best clone on the market; those Retron5 and other consoles use stolen open-source code, which makes me not want to use those.



TVL said:


> I was hoping there would be cores released for the Super NT that could run Mega Drive, NES, PCE etc. etc.
> 
> MiSTer seems to be something like that (but I know next to nothing about it, if the compability is even close to 100% with most/all/any of the different cores).
> 
> Anyway I would get something like that if it could run most old systems... but only one or two... not for me.



I wished Smokemonster would do something like that, but no one seems interested.


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## CaptainSodaPop (Oct 16, 2018)

Thought this was another "official" revision, looks good anyways. Love the company.


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## johnk (Oct 16, 2018)

You shouldn't think it's only a mini Konsole! I have the SuperNT and the Picture is better than RGB!! The sound is perfect too.
If you plug your old modules in the SuperNT, you got a complete new experience. Perfect Picture and Sound you never seen before. The MISTER FPGA can't use Modules only games from SD-Card and support Arcade an Classic Computers and some Konsole Ports like NES. I have it too. I can't wait to see the Mega SG, the people who create this FPGA based Konsole know their job. For the SuperNT exist a hack to copy the games to the Micro-SD and that works ;-). I hope that the MegaSG get the same hack.


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## Rahkeesh (Oct 16, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I can't be arsed to get a Framemeister or any other RGB mods on OG hardware, this makes it a helluva lot easier for me, IMO. HDMI out, no introduced overhead/lag (sans the one if the monitor), save state support (still in beta firmware), the list goes on.



Yeah, most modern TVs aren't going to treat a 240p RGB signal well. This is far cheaper than getting a decent upscaler if you only care about running a few original consoles.

Don't think there's been any mention of save states for the SG.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 16, 2018)

Rahkeesh said:


> Yeah, most modern TVs aren't going to treat a 240p RGB signal well. This is far cheaper than getting a decent upscaler if you only care about running a few original consoles.
> 
> Don't think there's been any mention of save states for the SG.



There are experimental ones for the SD2SNES, but it's still in beta and could be cool to see. If I get this, I'll get an Everdrive because I'm lazy.


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## Hanafuda (Oct 16, 2018)

azoreseuropa said:


> Not into SEGA Genesis/Mega Drive games at all. They are not my things. Except Mega Man - The Wily Wars.



Same here and I was a gaming consumer back then. The Genesis blew the doors off the NES on graphics, but when the SNES came out I stopped paying attention to the Sega commercials.

I bought the Super NT and can vouch for Analogue’s quality. But I’d rather see a new run of the NT Mini built with a Super NT style plastic shell (instead of milled aluminum $$). I’m probably gonna skip this one.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Foxi4 said:


> Oh, I'm sure it's excellent, with a good enough FPGA they can make an exact replica of the original chip, but it's still a replica. I don't roll with those superpowered replicas, my archival instinct tells me to just use the original hardware.



I own an SD2SNES, a Framemeister, 2 Super Famicoms, 1 Super Famicom Jr. (modded for S-Vid and RGB), and I still bought the Super NT. It’s friggin awesome.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 16, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Same here and I was a gaming consumer back then. The Genesis blew the doors off the NES on graphics, but when the SNES came out I stopped paying attention to the Sega commercials.
> 
> I bought the Super NT and can vouch for Analogue’s quality. But I’d rather see a new run of the NT Mini built with a Super NT style plastic shell (instead of milled aluminum $$). I’m probably gonna skip this one.
> 
> I own an SD2SNES, a Framemeister, 2 Super Famicoms, 1 Super Famicom Jr. (modded for S-Vid and RGB), and I still bought the Super NT. It’s friggin awesome.


It's really a personal preference, nothing else. I just like the originals better, I even go out of my way to keep them vanilla if I can.


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## Minox (Oct 16, 2018)

TyBlood13 said:


> This is made by the same people as the NT and is also an FPGA, so it isn't emulation. Also SNES to Genesis adapters are notoriously bad.


It's still emulation though. It's just emulating the hardware rather than emulating the results of running the software.


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## johnk (Oct 16, 2018)

It isn't emulating the hardware, that does emulators ;-) the hardware is with an FPGA complete rebuild, that means it runs on the orig. Chipsets. You can rebuild the hardware with an FPGA, the timming and all hardware based things run like on the orig. Hardware. Emulation is that the games run  on a different hardware only with emulation, that is a big difference!


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## FateForWindows (Oct 16, 2018)

TyBlood13 said:


> is also an FPGA, so it isn't emulation.


Uh, yes it is. FPGA-based consoles are just another form of emulation. Sure, it does replicate the architecture, but you still have to program all of that in a programming langauge, such as the Verilog that Kevtris uses.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 16, 2018)

johnk said:


> It isn't emulating the hardware, that does emulators ;-) the hardware is with an FPGA complete rebuild, that means it runs on the orig. Chipsets. You can rebuild the hardware with an FPGA, the timming and all hardware based things run like on the orig. Hardware. Emulation is that the games run  on a different hardware only with emulation, that is a big difference!


You don't seem to be familiar with what an FPGA (field-programmable gate array) is. It's an integrated circuit which uses a collection of gates that you can program to be open or closed. By doing so you can recreate physical circuits with software. It's a chip that emulates another chip, which makes it hardware emulation. This is different from software emulation which recompiles or interprets code in order to run it on a different machine. Still, it's emulation, just a different approach.


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## Minox (Oct 16, 2018)

johnk said:


> It isn't emulating the hardware, that does emulators ;-) the hardware is with an FPGA complete rebuild, that means it runs on the orig. Chipsets. You can rebuild the hardware with an FPGA, the timming and all hardware based things run like on the orig. Hardware. Emulation is that the games run  on a different hardware only with emulation, that is a big difference!


It is emulating the hardware though by utilizing the logic gates of the Field-Programmable Gate Array to emulate the original electrical and logical functionality of the chips inside of the console. The difference lies in this kind of emulation being code running upon physically programmed hardware rather than code running on code running on a micro-processor.


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## FateForWindows (Oct 16, 2018)

johnk said:


> It isn't emulating the hardware, that does emulators ;-) the hardware is with an FPGA complete rebuild, that means it runs on the orig. Chipsets. You can rebuild the hardware with an FPGA, the timming and all hardware based things run like on the orig. Hardware. Emulation is that the games run  on a different hardware only with emulation, that is a big difference!


Sorry to sorta double post (Foxi posted before me EDIT and Minox) but yes, this is technically a form of emulation often referred to as "hardware emulation" vs. "software emulation". You still have to program it to act like the original and even then contrary to popular belief the Super NT actually runs slightly slower than the original console to prevent screen tearing on some TVs that suffer from it with the slightly higher than normal NTSC output framerate of the machine (60.08 Hz vs 59.94 Hz).


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## johnk (Oct 16, 2018)

I know what an FPGA is NAND NOR and so on. But it isn't an emulation that is clear! That is the wrong definition.


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## FateForWindows (Oct 16, 2018)

johnk said:


> I know what an FPGA is NAND NOR and so on. But it isn't an emulation that is clear! That is the wrong definition.


And that statement is wrong, too. Just like software emulation, you have to write the code for the FPGA to be able to emulate the hardware. Also, they've had to supply software updates in the past to correct emulation inaccuracies, like one which made one game unplayable (Rendering Ranger R2, really good game btw).


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## Minox (Oct 16, 2018)

johnk said:


> I know what an FPGA is NAND NOR and so on. But it isn't an emulation that is clear! That is the wrong definition.


What you're describing are logic gates. A Field-Programmable Gate Array is a huge set of programmable gates that when flashed forms logic gates that perform programmed actions. By then programming the gates to mimic the physical chips on a system you get something that emulates the behavior, but does so physically much like the original chips unlike software emulation.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 16, 2018)

FateForWindows said:


> Sorry to sorta double post (Foxi posted before me EDIT and Minox) but yes, this is technically a form of emulation often referred to as "hardware emulation" vs. "software emulation". You still have to program it to act like the original and even then contrary to popular belief the Super NT actually runs slightly slower than the original console to prevent screen tearing on some TVs that suffer from it with the slightly higher than normal NTSC output framerate of the machine (60.08 Hz vs 59.94 Hz).


Emulation is, unfortunately, imperfect - there are many factors that come into play when it comes to signal integrity and timing, you have to account for the physical properties of the materials, hence the predictable downclock. It's pretty hard to map an entire circuit into code and then implement it perfectly. Even if it's 1:1, you have to make adjustments on account of various delays caused simply by the resistance of real-life components which is not present in software. It's impressive that they managed at all, a custom proprietary chip is hard to deal with. FPGA's are next-level when it comes to emulation, provided you have all the documentation for the chip you're trying to mimic, x-rays and so on.


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## Demonofelru (Oct 17, 2018)

I've always thought this following explains things very well.  Mind you it is a write up by the amazing Higan developer, so bias can't be discounted, but they seem to keep it in check and be more than fair.  I love my Super NT, but to say it's perfect is just false.  I myself have found at least one graphical glitch that I believe still persists the latest firmware.  Admittedly I haven't checked in quite a while if there was an update, and they have been very good at fixing things quickly, which deserves kudos though.

They are a business though, some of their marketing claims are at best misleading, at worst straight up lies.  I personally prefer original hardware on PVMs/BVMs, but that is certainly not for everyone, there are very real price, and convenience disadvantages.  I still own a Super NT and do like it mainly for convenience, much like I 99% of the time use original carts, but still own everdrives/flashcarts.

Link: https://byuu.org/articles/fpgas-arent-magic/


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## CeeDee (Oct 17, 2018)

Trash_Bandatcoot said:


> Or you can also buy a Super NT Mini and -*actuallyhavethefeelingyouhaveadecentconsole*- and then you buy a Genesis adapter for it since this isn't emulation.
> Boom, you don't need this.


This is made by the same people as the Super NT. For Sega games, this is the better choice over a Genesis adapter which is probably real wonky.

I'd still love a non-AtGames mini Genesis ala SNES Classic/PS1 Classic, though. 
Lil' emulation box with authentic controllers would be great, this definitely has a different more premium audience.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

CeeDee said:


> This is made by the same people as the Super NT. For Sega games, this is the better choice over a Genesis adapter which is probably real wonky.
> 
> I'd still love a non-AtGames mini Genesis ala SNES Classic/PS1 Classic, though.
> Lil' emulation box with authentic controllers would be great, this definitely has a different more premium audience.



Sega is hiring a better company to do just that with the MD mini, though details are scarce. AtGames can suck it. I can attest to the Super NT, rock solid hardware emulation.


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## Hyro-Sama (Oct 17, 2018)

Kourin said:


> Just do a mini Sega Saturn and/or Dreamcast



Someone more technically sound can correct me here if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure at current it's not possible to reach anything beyond Saturn . I don't even think N64 and Playstation are possible with the current available tech. I recall Kevtris saying as much when asked. I think it was in a My Life in Gaming video covering the Analogue Nt or the Super Nt.


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## CeeDee (Oct 17, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Sega is hiring a better company to do just that with the MD mini, though details are scarce. AtGames can suck it. I can attest to the Super NT, rock solid hardware emulation.


I thought AtGames were doing the next one? I'd actually consider buying one if it was half as good as the SNES Classic, but AtGames' ones just aren't.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

CeeDee said:


> I thought AtGames were doing the next one? I'd actually consider buying one if it was half as good as the SNES Classic, but AtGames' ones just aren't.



Nope, they were sacked, a Japanese developer has taken over.  There was totally a Tweet about it.


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## FateForWindows (Oct 17, 2018)

CeeDee said:


> I thought AtGames were doing the next one? I'd actually consider buying one if it was half as good as the SNES Classic, but AtGames' ones just aren't.


They were (presumably) fired when the console was delayed.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

FateForWindows said:


> They were (presumably) fired when the console was delayed.



Any developer would have done a better job


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## CeeDee (Oct 17, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Nope, they were sacked, a Japanese developer has taken over.  There was totally a Tweet about it.





FateForWindows said:


> They were (presumably) fired when the console was delayed.


Rad, that's good news. Gives me hope for something that's a quality product.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

CeeDee said:


> Rad, that's good news. Gives me hope for something that's a quality product.



Maybe M2 or D3T (actually, scratch that, they kinda botched the one on Steam).


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## invaderyoyo (Oct 17, 2018)

This sounds great! I absolutely love my Super NT. Paired with an SD2SNES, it's perfect.

Gonna have to get a Mega Everdrive.


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## dAVID_ (Oct 17, 2018)

Another mini console, another cash grab.


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## Minox (Oct 17, 2018)

dAVID_ said:


> Another mini console, another cash grab.


Huh? You didn't even read this news piece did you? It's a hardware emulation clone, it's not official in any way and it would require original cartridges or a flashcart to play.


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## dAVID_ (Oct 17, 2018)

Minox said:


> Huh? You didn't even read this news piece did you? It's a hardware emulation clone, it's not official in any way and it would require original cartridges or a flashcart to play.


I'm pretty sure that fits the definition of mini console.


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## Minox (Oct 17, 2018)

dAVID_ said:


> I'm pretty sure that fits the definition of mini console.


Except hardware emulation clones are much more expensive to manufacture making it hard to make them into huge cash grabs like the NES & SNES Classic which are produced fairly cheaply running on ARM SOCs. I'll give it to you that size-wise they might be smaller than the originals though.


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## dAVID_ (Oct 17, 2018)

Minox said:


> Except hardware emulation clones are much more expensive to manufacture making it hard to make them into huge cash grabs like the NES & SNES Classic which are produced fairly cheaply running on ARM SOCs. I'll give it to you that size-wise they might be smaller than the originals though.


That does explain the price tag.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

Minox said:


> Except hardware emulation clones are much more expensive to manufacture making it hard to make them into huge cash grabs like the NES & SNES Classic which are produced fairly cheaply running on ARM SOCs. I'll give it to you that size-wise they might be smaller than the originals though.



Hardware emulation tends to be way more accurate than the Mini consoles could ever be.


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## Minox (Oct 17, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Hardware emulation tends to be way more accurate than the Mini consoles could ever be.


Like someone mentioned above when linking to a Higan article - that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

Minox said:


> Like someone mentioned above when linking to a Higan article - that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.



I'd say that Higan and the Super NT are identical in terms of accuracy, even getting that dot-based rendering shadow correct, and the S-SMP emulation is spot on. Analog tends to go for
as accurate as possible. Snes Mini still gets a lot of games' sound incorrectly emulated.


----------



## Minox (Oct 17, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I'd say that Higan and the Super NT are identical in terms of accuracy, even getting that dot-based rendering shadow correct, and the S-SMP emulation is spot on. Analog tends to go for
> as accurate as possible. Snes Mini still gets a lot of games' sound incorrectly emulated.


Higan should be more accurate as far as emulation goes, but the point it proves is that software emulation can be more accurate than hardware emulation with the key word being can. Often though the software emulation used in these mini consoles are made to be just good enough for most people to not care.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 17, 2018)

Yepi69 said:


> For 200$ I can pick up a used Genesis and a Everdrive and still have left over money.



If you're using an old CRT television, sure. With a modern LCD TV, without an upscaler the original console's display's gonna look like shit.


----------



## Jackson Ferrell (Oct 17, 2018)

Does releasing "Classic" versions of retro consoles decrease the value of the original consoles?


----------



## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

Minox said:


> Higan should be more accurate as far as emulation goes, but the point it proves is that software emulation can be more accurate than hardware emulation with the key word being can. Often though the software emulation used in these mini consoles are made to be just good enough for most people to not care.



Snes mini can't even emulate Earthworm Jim 2 without major audio issues, *shrug* I'd rather use the Super NT than Higan though, there's literally no distinguishable difference between the two.


----------



## Minox (Oct 17, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Snes mini can't even emulate Earthworm Jim 2 without major audio issues, *shrug* I'd rather use the Super NT than Higan though, there's literally no distinguishable difference between the two.


Don't get me wrong. I'm also looking to get a Super NT myself - I just want to make it clear that just because something is software emulation doesn't mean it has to be any worse than hardware emulation if a well enough done job has been done.


----------



## Rahkeesh (Oct 17, 2018)

Eh as awesome as Higan is, isn't it ever so slightly worse on the latency front. In a way that you can't even approximate without custom hardware for all your inputs and outputs. And running the thing on any kind of multitasking OS seems like the other half of the problem.


----------



## Yepi69 (Oct 17, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> If you're using an old CRT television, sure. With a modern LCD TV, without an upscaler the original console's display's gonna look like shit.


Better having the game looking like good old 90's ''shit'' than to use crappy ass emulation.


----------



## duwen (Oct 17, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> If you're using an old CRT television, sure. With a modern LCD TV, without an upscaler the original console's display's gonna look like shit.


That's just not true.
I run all my 16-bit consoles (SNES, Megadrive, NeoGeoCD) directly to my 4k Sony Bravia tv via RGB scart cables, no framemeister or OSSC, and they are all pixel perfect. Literally.
It's all about using the correct output, having the corresponding input on your tv (having a good tv that 'understands' outdated resolutions helps), and using the correct cable.


----------



## Skyhigh_ (Oct 17, 2018)

LiveLatios said:


> already exists




Well if you have to get even smaller than this there is something called a ''pocket sprite'' doesn't support gba games but supports gbc/gb, nes, and sega MG i believe.

Its $55 and dam tiny, screen is like 1.5'', i have one but games that have a lot of text are dam near hard to play because the letters are small to see


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 17, 2018)

duwen said:


> That's just not true.
> I run all my 16-bit consoles (SNES, Megadrive, NeoGeoCD) directly to my 4k Sony Bravia tv via RGB scart cables, no framemeister or OSSC, and they are all pixel perfect. Literally.
> It's all about using the correct output, having the corresponding input on your tv (having a good tv that 'understands' outdated resolutions helps), and using the correct cable.



Depends on the market you live in.

Yeah if you have a TV with SCART RGB inputs _and_ it is 240p compatible, then you're right. In the UK, apparently such TV's are available if you shop carefully. (I didn't know this, thought SCART support ended with CRT's even in Europe.)

Consumer grade TV's sold in North America don't have SCART inputs. Never have. It sucks.

Japan used to have its own version of SCART, called JP21. But I don't think its commonly supported on new TV's there anymore.




Yepi69 said:


> Better having the game looking like good old 90's ''shit'' than to use crappy ass emulation.



Original 8-bit and 16-bit era consoles (240p output) all looked great in the 90's, on CRT TV's.


----------



## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

Minox said:


> Don't get me wrong. I'm also looking to get a Super NT myself - I just want to make it clear that just because something is software emulation doesn't mean it has to be any worse than hardware emulation if a well enough done job has been done.



I..that wasn't my intent at all. I'm just stating my preference of hardware vs. official software emulation. I just wished Nintendo had put more effort into accurate emulation.  Higan is a bit too much for my machine, unless I go with Balanced or Performance, but at that point, I may as well run Snes9x 1.56.2.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Oct 17, 2018)

another damn one...


----------



## Song of storms (Oct 17, 2018)

Another retro console? Jesus christ stop polluting the market with this cr... oh, made by Analogue? Alright then.


----------



## DarthDub (Oct 17, 2018)

Not buying this since there's no 32x support.


----------



## geodeath (Oct 17, 2018)

Patiently waiting for the day a multi system FPGA console will come out... $400 for the nes, $300 for the snes, $200 for this.. not bad if you are 'just' starting collecting retro stuff and you do not already have a good upscaler to run RGB consoles on hdtvs, as the costs are still high but you get the ease of use. At the end of the day the only difference between this and the snes one they got out is literally the controller ports, the cart port and its software. Make adapters for it and sell the cores perhaps instead?


----------



## duwen (Oct 17, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> Not buying this since there's no 32x support.


Yeah, it's a real shame it won't support the 32x - especially considering that it's support of Game Gear, Mark III, MyCard, SG-1000, and SG-3000 cards/carts makes it the only 'non software emulation' console available to support all those formats (and that includes the original Sega consoles) in one unit.
A 32x adapter module would've made it a damn enticing prospect, even at the current price point.


----------



## WildDog (Oct 17, 2018)

While i do understand why this machines cost what they cost (Small company, pricey fpga, etc).  But i wonder...
Who's their target???
I guess they are aiming at people in their early 20's who want to act snobish (who where not born or way too young to have used the machines when new....) "look mah machine is not emulation!!!! is accurate". Yet they play "accurately" in a 4k 60" TV.
Sorry but if we are going to be snobs and request accuracy then you need to play in a crt tv, like it was meant to be played... In that case an OG Mega Drive with a crt is THE most accurate thing you can use. Is not like mega drivers model 1 and 2 are extinct and the games...  
Want to avoid scalpers asking  a lot money for old games??? No problem, you can get repros from China, which use the same rom as the og games.... and cost like 4 euros or less.

Still amaze me how people like to trash those mini consoles made by Atgames.. "ohh the sound is nooo accurate!!"... pff it's a 60 dollars machines, made so people who didn't play the games when news (like most of the snobs who cry about accuracy) can have a taste of those games...
Same when they cry about some small input lag... if you can't beat a game don't blame a few ms.... blame your own lack of skills... 






DKB said:


> That shit costs as much as this damn console!


In what universe??  I got one those for 40 euros, in perfect shape. Of course just the console and a charger.

Look one from the US.  65 bucks dollars... i guess if you look you can get one for much less...

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Nintendo-Ga...h=item23acbb7b6c:g:-PYAAOSwAfVbxrpR:rk:2:pf:0


----------



## ov3rkill (Oct 17, 2018)

LiveLatios said:


> already exists



But that's micro. They skip past the mini. Then we can get nano next.


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 17, 2018)

ov3rkill said:


> But that's micro. They skip past the mini. Then we can get nano next.


_~~whistles~~
_
that exists as well, but on a less official level, it's more of a DIY project with a rasPI zero


----------



## ov3rkill (Oct 17, 2018)

LiveLatios said:


> _~~whistles~~
> _
> that exists as well, but on a less official level, it's more of a DIY project with a rasPI zero



Yeah. But we need an official Nintendo product to milk these things so us suckers will buy them.


----------



## WildDog (Oct 17, 2018)

ov3rkill said:


> But that's micro. They skip past the mini. Then we can get nano next.


The Mini is the SP... lol


----------



## zomgugoff (Oct 17, 2018)

"Total Accuracy"

"Analogue does it all."

"Mega Sg has the same unparalleled compatibility as Super Nt."

...but not for the 32X. It's not even mentioned on the site. Seems like a note about that incompatibility should be noted somewhere on the page.

I understand there's no good way to use the 32X with the Sg with the dependency on analog video combining. Maybe they'll make a FPGA 32x module that can plug into the cartridge slot on the Sg later on.


----------



## ov3rkill (Oct 17, 2018)

WildDog said:


> The Mini is the SP... lol



Moving forward to gameboy nano. Then perhaps we can have pico.


----------



## pustal (Oct 17, 2018)

I mean maybe I could get on board with a Saturn Mini. How is emulation this days? Last time I tried to emulate Panzer Dragon Saga it was awful.


----------



## samedifference (Oct 17, 2018)

Ah, for that price, I would've hoped for 32X support as well.


----------



## SuperNintendho (Oct 17, 2018)

Granada here i come!


----------



## Deleted User (Oct 17, 2018)

DKB said:


> Damn, $200+. That's steep.


i like sega stuff so im probably gonna buy it regardless of price


----------



## the_randomizer (Oct 17, 2018)

Bladexdsl said:


> another damn one...



Your point being? You're not forced to get it.


----------



## eyeliner (Oct 17, 2018)

It's a good way to do things, but unless you have some Genesis games lying around, there's no point in getting it.
They could go the extra mile and include a cartridge of Sonic with it. Just like the good old days.

So, *anyone* could get this, and not only the collectors.


----------



## The Real Jdbye (Oct 17, 2018)

Finally a not shit Genesis/MD clone. I noticed that recently with the release of the Sega Genesis Flashback HD the older AtGames clones have been surfacing all over the place again. You know, the ones with awful, awful sound that seemed like such poor attempts at a Chinese clone console that it's amazing they even got officially licensed. And the Flashback HD doesn't seem all that great either, but at least it presumably has proper sound this time around.

I wonder if it will be possible to support the 32X directly in the FPGA? For the Super Nt they said there was plenty of space left on the FPGA to add support for special chips and such and even more systems in a jailbreak firmware. That should mean that simulating the 32X should be possible as well.
Even if 32X carts wouldn't fit, you could always load them as ROMs, and it might be possible to use a 32X simply as a cartridge adapter, with the actual system itself simulating the hardware.


----------



## duwen (Oct 17, 2018)

eyeliner said:


> It's a good way to do things, but unless you have some Genesis games lying around, there's no point in getting it.
> They could go the extra mile and include a cartridge of Sonic with it. Just like the good old days.
> 
> So, *anyone* could get this, and not only the collectors.



It's certainly not being aimed at a market of Megadrive/Genesis/Master System noobs as an entry level system. Much like their previous systems, it's being aimed at those that take their retro gaming (maybe too) seriously and want the best possible output on their modern screens.
Seriously, any company that marketed a wooden NeoGeo and a gold plated NES isn't concerned about introducing retro virgins into the scene.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 17, 2018)

eyeliner said:


> It's a good way to do things, but unless you have some Genesis games lying around, there's no point in getting it.
> They could go the extra mile and include a cartridge of Sonic with it. Just like the good old days.
> 
> So, *anyone* could get this, and not only the collectors.




If this one goes the same as with the Super NT, there’ll be an unofficial jailbreak FW sometime after launch that lets you store and play roms from sd.


----------



## depaul (Oct 17, 2018)

Sega Mega Drive/Genesis can be emulated very easily, genesis collection was ported to many new consoles, you can find roms even in App Store

However, Sega Saturn is a very rare console and many people (including myself) wish to replay Saturn exclusives : Nights, Buring Rangers, Sonic R...

So a better business decision would be to produce a sega saturn mini with embedded 16GB+ memory, and best Sega Saturn collection. I would buy it even if it costs 100$+

I would also buy a Dreamcast mini if released (Sonic Shuffle, Shenmue, Canon Spike, Virtua Tennis, Blue Stinger, Head Hunter... many great games)


----------



## eyeliner (Oct 17, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> If this one goes the same as with the Super NT, there’ll be an unofficial jailbreak FW sometime after launch that lets you store and play roms from sd.


As described, this has no OS itself. It's basically the third redesign of the Genesis/Megadrive. Carts only.


----------



## xs4all (Oct 18, 2018)

duwen said:


> A quality device that I'd be tempted by if not for the fact that it's too expensive, and I already own 3 megadrives, a mega cd, and a master system that all look great on my 4k tv via rgb.



I'm about to go down this route with my Megadrive 2 & CD, does RGB look anywhere near as what the YT video is showing? That footage is pixel or near pixel perfect.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 18, 2018)

eyeliner said:


> As described, this has no OS itself. It's basically the third redesign of the Genesis/Megadrive. Carts only.




It says right on Analogue's specs for the console "SD card firmware updating (via Mega Sg's SD card slot)"


----------



## the_randomizer (Oct 18, 2018)

eyeliner said:


> As described, this has no OS itself. It's basically the third redesign of the Genesis/Megadrive. Carts only.



It has a UI, a basic menu like the Super NT, it's a barebones OS, nothing more.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> It has a UI, a basic menu like the Super NT, it's a barebones OS, nothing more.



Exactly. Basically it's a system settings menu only. Scanlines, aspect ratio, other tweaks. As you said, it's like the Super NT. And the Super NT jailbreak enables roms from SD. There's no reason the same won't happen with the Mega SG, but it's an unofficial thing so there's no guarantee.


----------



## the_randomizer (Oct 18, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Exactly. Basically it's a system settings menu only. Scanlines, aspect ratio, other tweaks. As you said, it's like the Super NT. And the Super NT jailbreak enables roms from SD. There's no reason the same won't happen with the Mega SG, but it's an unofficial thing so there's no guarantee.



I'd imagine this will eventually get a jailbreak firmware too.


----------



## Hanafuda (Oct 18, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I'd imagine this will eventually get a jailbreak firmware too.


 
That's what I've been saying.


----------



## the_randomizer (Oct 18, 2018)

I might get this just to spite the haters  Along with getting an Everdrive, because screw paying eBay "collectors" inflated prices for games.


----------



## eyeliner (Oct 18, 2018)

Then it just might be worth the asking price, for some.


----------



## Juggalo Debo (Oct 18, 2018)

more consoles for me to buy...... DAAAAAMMMMMNNNNN IT


----------



## duwen (Oct 18, 2018)

xs4all said:


> I'm about to go down this route with my Megadrive 2 & CD, does RGB look anywhere near as what the YT video is showing? That footage is pixel or near pixel perfect.





duwen said:


> I run all my 16-bit consoles (SNES, Megadrive, NeoGeoCD) directly to my 4k Sony Bravia tv via RGB scart cables, no framemeister or OSSC, and they are all pixel perfect. Literally.
> It's all about using the correct output, having the corresponding input on your tv (having a good tv that 'understands' outdated resolutions helps), and using the correct cable.


----------



## smf (Oct 18, 2018)

TyBlood13 said:


> This is made by the same people as the NT and is also an FPGA, so it isn't emulation.



Ah, the cult of fpga isn't emulation. There is nothing about emulation that means it has to be written in software to run on a general purpose CPU.

All it means is that something that isn't something tries to take on the functionality of something else. Which this does.

The main difference between emulation using cpu's and fpga's is latency. Although there have been developments for software running on cpu's that allows the video to be built up in smaller strips, so it can be output immediately rather than the traditional method of waiting until it can output an entire frame.

What this does have is real controller ports which have zero latency and there is no way of doing that with a PC, although you could hack them onto a raspberry pi. It also supports real cartridges, you have been able to buy devices to back up cartridges to PC's before but AFAIK there is nothing integrated into an emulator.

What it doesn't have is 32x or mega cd support.

So this is amazing if you want a stand alone low latency product that can plug into your tv and use your cartridges and controllers and don't care about 32x or mega cd. But that has nothing to do with if it's an emulator or not.


----------



## duwen (Oct 18, 2018)

smf said:


> What it doesn't have is 32x or mega cd support.


It does have mega cd support - as detailed in the promotional material - via it's edge connector.


----------



## WildDog (Oct 18, 2018)

smf said:


> .
> 
> What this does have is real controller ports which have zero latency and there is no way of doing that with a PC



In what universe? If you have a wired controller, with a 1ms monitor and use retroarch with the read ahead option... You will have even less latency than the real hardware or this analogue machines....


----------



## smf (Oct 18, 2018)

WildDog said:


> In what universe? If you have a wired controller, with a 1ms monitor and use retroarch with the read ahead option... You will have even less latency than the real hardware or this analogue machines....



Wired controllers still have latency. Software emulators have to run ahead of the display output, which adds latency.

Read ahead in retroarch targets internal game latency, but that was designed to be in there. You're cheating at the game by using it & it can cause graphic artifacts if you set it to read ahead more than the game tries to slow you down. Having to configure it per game is pretty annoying.


----------



## WildDog (Oct 18, 2018)

smf said:


> Wired controllers still have latency. Software emulators have to run ahead of the display output, which adds latency.
> 
> Read ahead in retroarch targets internal game latency, but that was designed to be in there. You're cheating at the game by using it & it can cause graphic artifacts if you set it to read ahead more than the game tries to slow you down. Having to configure it per game is pretty annoying.


Of course they have latency, everything have latency,but under certain # we cannot see it. Even if you solder the controller to the board bypassing, it will still have some degree of latency.... but with a wired controller it is practical non existant.
By using run ahead you are not cheating, you are just getting closer to the latency it should have.


----------



## smf (Oct 18, 2018)

WildDog said:


> you are just getting closer to the latency it should have.



No, it purely undoes the latency the game should have. If the game has no latency then using read ahead will cause graphic glitches.

If the game has latency then it trades that for the latency the emulator has, if the game has no latency then you're stuffed.

It's not even a new idea, there were emulators doing something similar years ago. They looked ahead at the graphics that were being generated for the next frame, the only difference is that it was game specific.


----------



## the_randomizer (Oct 18, 2018)

Why can't people just let others use whatever the hell they want? If they want to use RetroArch, fine, and if they want to use this, fine, who cares?


----------



## WildDog (Oct 19, 2018)

smf said:


> No, it purely undoes the latency the game should have. If the game has no latency then using read ahead will cause graphic glitches.
> 
> If the game has latency then it trades that for the latency the emulator has, if the game has no latency then you're stuffed.
> 
> It's not even a new idea, there were emulators doing something similar years ago. They looked ahead at the graphics that were being generated for the next frame, the only difference is that it was game specific.



You cannot remove latency, it is impossible, you will always get latency.... it will only be lowered to apoint that is too low for your brain to see it.  Think about a bullet, after you fire the gun you will see the hole in the target... The bullet didn't instant trasmit to the target.  It did travel to the target, but it was faster than you can see and your brain can process.. So from your point of view, it was instantly, when it was not. Here is the same, you will always latency.
Now we add the latency of a modern display (unless you are using an OLED), you can get an experience similar to the one you would get using the real hardware.



the_randomizer said:


> Why can't people just let others use whatever the hell they want? If they want to use RetroArch, fine, and if they want to use this, fine, who cares?



I think you are taking it over the top, i don't see anyone saying "HEY DON'T BUY IT OR ELSE!!!"  people can play games in whatever they want or buy whatever they want with their money....
But people can point their points of view, even more when some company is  are tryng to sell an expensive FPGA console as the "THE ULTIMATE!!!!! RETRO CONSOLE, FOR TE ULTIMATE ACCURACY!!".....

Hell people did complaing that Nintendo did not give some cheap as cellphone charger (who everyone already has) with their mini consoles.... but everyone seems to be OK, with Analogue, charging 200 dollars for a fpga consoles that doesn't EVEN CAME WITH A GAMEPAD.


----------



## duwen (Oct 19, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Hell people did complaing that Nintendo did not give some cheap as cellphone charger (who everyone already has) with their mini consoles.... but everyone seems to be OK, with Analogue, charging 200 dollars for a fpga consoles that doesn't EVEN CAME WITH A GAMEPAD.



Much like Nintendo's charger presumptions (although their lack of inclusion of a charger with the N3DS is far more contentious than them not being included with the mini's), I think Analog believe that anyone buying this will already own game cartridges and, by extension, also own controllers for the original system - so, only a minority of people that would buy this would actually require a new controller, and that isn't worth inflating the price any higher than it already is.


----------



## smf (Oct 19, 2018)

WildDog said:


> You cannot remove latency, it is impossible, you will always get latency.... it will only be lowered to apoint that is too low for your brain to see it.  Think about a bullet, after you fire the gun you will see the hole in the target... The bullet didn't instant trasmit to the target.  It did travel to the target, but it was faster than you can see and your brain can process.. So from your point of view, it was instantly, when it was not. Here is the same, you will always latency.
> Now we add the latency of a modern display (unless you are using an OLED), you can get an experience similar to the one you would get using the real hardware.



I'm not talking about removing latency that exists because of the speed of light.

The base line latency is if you had a genesis game running in a loop that is constantly reading the joystick ports and changes the screen so that the next pixel that is drawn is affected by the inputs. If you enabled read ahead in retroarch in such a test case then it would display incorrect graphics. Your only option would be a real genesis or the mega sg.

Latency in modern screens is mostly down to the display processor, rather than the response time. Some tv's have a game mode which disables alot of the processing (stuff like deinterlacing effects) & allows the image to be displayed sooner. Getting a tv that doesn't introduce it's own latency is obviously important. The advantage of the mega sg over a real genesis is that the video output is already upscaled and doesn't have to go through the analogue path.

If you like read ahead then good for you, but it's not a 100% solution for everything and you shouldn't pretend it is.


----------



## Pickle_Rick (Oct 22, 2018)

Minox said:


> Higan should be more accurate as far as emulation goes, but the point it proves is that software emulation can be more accurate than hardware emulation with the key word being can. Often though the software emulation used in these mini consoles are made to be just good enough for most people to not care.


You'd be surprised. Not really. Also, the more accurate you get, the more cpu power you need. Full accuracy emulation Higan needs an i9 to avoid any stutter.


----------



## WildDog (Oct 22, 2018)

Pickle_Rick said:


> You'd be surprised. Not really. Also, the more accurate you get, the more cpu power you need. Full accuracy emulation Higan needs an i9 to avoid any stutter.



Oh digital foundry, yes then it's true, you  need an I9 to avoid stutter on Bsnes (higan).. lol..
No, you don't need an I9 to run Bsnes at "full accuracy" even with an old dog like the AMD Fx 8350 black edition (a 2012 CPU) you can run bsnes without stutter....  With something "older" than I9, like the I7 8700, bsnes becomes a joke.
If some people think that a BSNES, needs space age cpus to run it without issues... i wonder what they will think of PCem???

This is the type of things, that make some people to dislike products like the SuperNT... that to promote their stuff  some of their fanboys need to tell misinformation and people then starts to spread it, like IT'S THE TRUTH!!!.
You don't need a SuperNT, to get an uber accuracte experience. Also you don't need an space age computer to run bsnes at full capacity..
You like the looks of SuperNT? Then buy one and be happy
You like the idea to have a console that tries to replicates the original hardware? Then buy one these consoles from Analogue and be happy 
But there is no need to spread inaccurate information about other stuff.


----------



## FateForWindows (Oct 22, 2018)

Pickle_Rick said:


> Full accuracy emulation Higan needs an i9 to avoid any stutter.



Then why can I play Star Fox 2 on my i7-4710MQ (pretty sure that's the model my PC has) without any drops at all?


----------



## Pickle_Rick (Oct 22, 2018)

WildDog said:


> Oh digital foundry, yes then it's true, you  need an I9 to avoid stutter on Bsnes (higan).. lol..
> No, you don't need an I9 to run Bsnes at "full accuracy" even with an old dog like the AMD Fx 8350 black edition (a 2012 CPU) you can run bsnes without stutter....  With something "older" than I9, like the I7 8700, bsnes becomes a joke.
> If some people think that a BSNES, needs space age cpus to run it without issues... i wonder what they will think of PCem???
> 
> ...





FateForWindows said:


> Then why can I play Star Fox 2 on my i7-4710MQ (pretty sure that's the model my PC has) without any drops at all?


I said ANY stutter. Most games will run fine with lower hardware. But still, you need expensive high end cpus for full accuracy (I'm including the i7s as well).


----------



## WildDog (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickle_Rick said:


> I said ANY stutter. Most games will run fine with lower hardware. But still, you need expensive high end cpus for full accuracy (I'm including the i7s as well).



Did you even try bsnes???, look the I7 he has is from 2014... It's far from being a high end cpu.. It's an old dog, like the Amd i told you.
No stutter at all with older cpus.... in fact higan has a faq about the games running too fast and how to fix it.
Bsnes doesn't need an space age CPU, what Bsnes need is a better CPU than the average SNES emulator and remember that some snes emulators even run on a 486 cpu running DOS....

Also everytime someone says "Full accuracy" reminds me of when people used to make creepypastas using "hyper realistic blood!"


----------



## BORTZ (Oct 23, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> You don't seem to be familiar with what an FPGA (field-programmable gate array) is. It's an integrated circuit which uses a collection of gates that you can program to be open or closed. By doing so you can recreate physical circuits with software. It's a chip that emulates another chip, which makes it hardware emulation. This is different from software emulation which recompiles or interprets code in order to run it on a different machine. Still, it's emulation, just a different approach.


I was not either, so thank you


----------



## Foxi4 (Oct 23, 2018)

BORTZ said:


> I was not either, so thank you


Don't get me wrong, it's a good way to get your hands on a chip that's out of production and re-creating it wouldn't be financially viable or it would breach a zillion patents, but it's not perfect - people should know this. You're most welcome. 

People forget that sometimes accurate emulation *causes* stutter, case in point, Mega Man X. You might remember the game running flawlessly when you were a kid, but it runs like mud on a real SNES with frequent framerate drops well into molasses territory.


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## smf (Oct 25, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> This is different from software emulation which recompiles or interprets code in order to run it on a different machine. Still, it's emulation, just a different approach.



I don't see why you can't describe the fpga also as interpreting.

The main difference between an fpga and a cpu is the fpga dedicates logic gates to particular tasks activated by the fuse map, while the logic gates in a cpu are multiplexed and activated by feeding opcodes in.

Some people make out that an fpga has real circuits downloaded into it, but in reality you just have a bunch of pre-made circuits which you then can activate and link together. Even if you have the schematic for a chip then you still have to sit down and write code to load into the fpga to emulate the original chip.


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## the_randomizer (Oct 25, 2018)

Why are people crapping on FPGA clone systems? It feels a helluva lot more authentic than using a software emulator.  Heaven forbid it's not 100% super cycle-accurate to Higan Accuracy, which runs like shit on my Core i7 4770, so yeah, not worth my time.


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## FateForWindows (Oct 26, 2018)

Oh, should've mentioned this but the Mega Sg also doesn't contain a YM2612 like they originally advertised. It's emulated through the FPGA as well, which they claim brings the exact same experience as the original hardware, which also isn't true as it lacks the low pass filtering the Genesis used which is pretty much one of the most important parts of the sound hardware besides the YM2612 and PSG themselves. The lack of filtering is a huge disappointment in my opinion and it makes the sound sound about as good as an emulator.

Fun fact: from the non-HD Graphics labeled model 1s without the expansion port to the early model 2s, the audio amps and filtering were terrible leading to the infamously bad sound those models have.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 26, 2018)

smf said:


> I don't see why you can't describe the fpga also as interpreting.
> 
> The main difference between an fpga and a cpu is the fpga dedicates logic gates to particular tasks activated by the fuse map, while the logic gates in a cpu are multiplexed and activated by feeding opcodes in.
> 
> Some people make out that an fpga has real circuits downloaded into it, but in reality you just have a bunch of pre-made circuits which you then can activate and link together. Even if you have the schematic for a chip then you still have to sit down and write code to load into the fpga to emulate the original chip.


Because it's not the same thing, that's why. One approach interprets the game code (interpretation) or adapts it (dynamic recompilation, or dynarec) to run on hardware that it isn't supposed to run on, the other adapts the hardware, or at least the environment, so that the code doesn't know any better. In reality it's usually a combination of both, but the point stands. It's like the difference between going to the tailor to get your suit adjusted to your size versus going on a diet to fit your old suit again - the end result is the same, you're wearing a suit, but you got there in one of those two distinct ways.


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## smf (Oct 26, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Because it's not the same thing, that's why. One approach interprets the game code (interpretation) or adapts it (dynamic recompilation, or dynarec) to run on hardware that it isn't supposed to run on, the other adapts the hardware, or at least the environment, so that the code doesn't know any better.



A cpu and an fpga are both hardware that a genesis game isn't supposed to run on. No matter whether you use a cpu or fpga, the goal of both is to make it so the original code doesn't know any better.

An interpreter fetches and decodes each instruction every time they are executed.

A drc fetches and decodes instructions and caches the results in a way the hardware can run natively.

So if your fpga supported changing the fuse map at run time, you could make an fpga drc. Otherwise it's an interpreter.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 26, 2018)

smf said:


> A cpu and an fpga are both hardware that a genesis game isn't supposed to run on. No matter whether you use a cpu or fpga, the goal of both is to make it so the original code doesn't know any better.
> 
> An interpreter fetches and decodes each instruction every time they are executed.
> 
> ...


It's not about the method, it's about *what* you're emulating. They're both emulation. I don't know why that's flying over your head. Again, a traditional emulator *primarily* focuses on adapting the software to run on the hardware, an emulation box based on an FPGA is the opposite approach, it's adapting the hardware to support the software. An FPGA basically pretends to be the original platform, an emulator takes the original software instructions and makes them palatable to the client machine.


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## smf (Oct 26, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> Again, a traditional emulator *primarily* focuses on adapting the software to run on the hardware,



No, it doesn't. It creates an environment for the original software to run in, exactly what an fpga does.

Both use turing complete programming languages. As I pointed out earlier it comes down to dedicating or multiplexing logic gates.

This purely has an effect on timing, some of these timing differences can be noticed by a user and others can't. The accuracy of the emulation is down to the quality of the code.

I recently purchased an Ultimate64 and it has issues with accuracy, some software won't run (hopefully this will get fixed). In many ways winvice is better, but it can't use real c64 joysticks, disk drives and cartridges (timing would affect them all in different ways). All i/o on the Ultimate64 (in theory) is clocked at the correct rate.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 26, 2018)

smf said:


> No, it doesn't. It creates an environment for the original software to run in, exactly what an fpga does.


I don't know how to make this clearer. In an interpreter mode of operation an emulator takes a chunk of code, looks at it and tries to run instructions that are analogous. In a dynamic recompilation mode of operation it takes chunks of code, disassembles them and recompiles them as it runs so that the instructions are native to the platform. An FPGA doesn't do that, an FPGA mirrors the configuration of the original platform using gates so that the software doesn't know any better and just runs. What's more to say here? Modern emulations use these three approaches to achieve a balance of stable, playable and accurate emulation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_recompilation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreter_(computing)


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## smf (Oct 26, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't know how to make this clearer. In an interpreter mode of operation an emulator takes a chunk of code, looks at it and tries to run instructions that are analogous



I'm amazed this is too complex for you to understand.

An interpreter doesn't look at a chunk of code. It looks at a single instruction, decodes it and implements the original cpu's logic in it's own logic.

For a cpu that will be instructions in ram which control the multiplexed logic in a cpu, for an fpga it's a fusemap which controls dedicated logic.

Fundamentally there is 



Foxi4 said:


> An FPGA doesn't do that, an FPGA mirrors the configuration of the original platform using gates so that the software doesn't know any better and just runs.



The FPGA just has lots of building blocks for logic, like look up tables and comparitors etc which the fuse map hooks up together. In a cpu the logic is multiplexed.

You can't just draw out a schematic with logic gates and put it into an fpga, they are just like a cpu that has been turned inside out.

In both circumstances the software doesn't know any better unless there are bugs, or in the case of a cpu the timing caused by the multiplexing of logic can have an effect on external i/o.


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## WildDog (Oct 26, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Why are people crapping on FPGA clone systems? It feels a helluva lot more authentic than using a software emulator.  Heaven forbid it's not 100% super cycle-accurate to Higan Accuracy, which runs like shit on my Core i7 4770, so yeah, not worth my time.


I don't know you are running that emulator but an 4770, in fact that cpu is more powerful that the amd i told earlier... Both are from the same era and the AMD can run it no problems...  But let's leave it there..

Why people are crapping on FPGA? People are not crapping on FPGA, people are crapping on other people that tries to tell us that the "ultimate", most "accurate" and "authentic" way to play Snes and now mega drive is to buy one of these overpriced fpga consoles, while claiming this, trashing other way to play this old software (like higan among others).
This FPGA are not either the

"Ultimate" way to play = The Ultimate way to play, is using again the original hardware

"Accurate" way to play = You said it, is not cycle-accurate as higan

"Authentic"  way to play = Again the authentic way to play is with the real hardware and a CRT TV which was the way the software was meant to be played, not using a 4k TV upscaled with filters....


You like the console, then buy it and enjoy it. But people shouldn't try to sell it as "THE BEST THERE IS!!!" (while trashing other options) when it's far from being true.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 26, 2018)

smf said:


> I'm amazed this is too complex for you to understand.
> 
> An interpreter doesn't look at a chunk of code. It looks at a single instruction, decodes it and implements the original cpu's logic in it's own logic.
> 
> ...


It's very clearly a different approach towards emulating a platform, we can disagree on the minor details. I dumbed it down as much as possible to make it understandable to other readers. My entire point was that an FPGA is programmed to behave like the desired platform using its on-board hardware whereas a software emulator does the opposite, it makes software behave like native code of the host, either through interpretation or outright recompilation. Yes, in both cases the game "doesn't know any better", that's a figure of speech, we're talking about emulation. There obviously isn't a magic pixie carving paths on the FPGA die, that's not the point.


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## smf (Oct 26, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> My entire point was that an FPGA is programmed to behave like the desired platform using its on-board hardware whereas a software emulator does the opposite, it makes software behave like native code of the host, either through interpretation or outright recompilation.



And I disagree entirely that it's the opposite. It only sounds like that because the cpu runs software, but the bits in ram just control multiplexing of logic inside the cpu. While the fpga loads the fusemap into it's ram cells at boot time that control it's logic & they usually don't change. For cpu & fpga those bits that control the logic are created by writing code in a turing complete language.

In terms of dumbing the difference down to it's simplest level I think I'm closest and you're still hung up on religious differences.

cpus and fpgas are both hardware, they both have logic that are controlled by bits in ram. The fundamental difference is multiplexed vs dedicated, although this dictates the design of the cpu and fpga that is an implementation detail.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 26, 2018)

smf said:


> And I disagree entirely that it's the opposite. It only sounds like that because the cpu runs software, but the bits in ram just control multiplexing of logic inside the cpu. While the fpga loads the fusemap into it's ram cells at boot time that control it's logic & they usually don't change.
> 
> In terms of dumbing the difference down to it's simplest level I think I'm closest and you're still hung up on religious differences.


That's fine. It's not really religious, I don't care for either approach, I much prefer just using the original hardware and adapt it to new displays if needed. I'm a little surprised that the company didn't just pick up a boatload of used MD's, stripped them and rebuilt them on a new PCB with fresh caps and a simple RGB-to-HDMI circuit, that seems more like their style and there's no shortage of lone and unloved MD's out there. It doesn't seem like a massive undertaking, certainly easier than having to keep their new device on a constant update schedule.


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## smf (Oct 26, 2018)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't care for either approach, I much prefer just using the original hardware and adapt it to new displays if needed.



I agree in principle, but I've got to desolder some chips from a c64 motherboard to put into my 64 reloaded motherboard. Removing 40 pin chips with 30 year old solder is a nightmare. I've just bought a rework station specifically to do it. 

My ultimate64 on the other hand doesn't need me to go to that hassle.



Foxi4 said:


> I'm a little surprised that the company didn't just pick up a boatload of used MD's, stripped them and rebuilt them on a new PCB with fresh caps and a simple RGB-to-HDMI circuit, that seems more like their style and there's no shortage of lone and unloved MD's out there.



I'm not convinced you could do it cheaper, retro consoles are pretty expensive right now and salvaging the parts would cost.

Their previous console, the Super NT, was also fpga based. Their earlier NT used original chips and was double the cost.


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## Foxi4 (Oct 26, 2018)

smf said:


> I agree in principle, but I've got to desolder some chips from a c64 motherboard to put into my 64 reloaded motherboard. Removing 40 pin chips with 30 year old solder is a nightmare. I've just bought a rework station specifically to do it.
> 
> My ultimate64 on the other hand doesn't need me to go to that hassle.
> 
> ...


I'm okay with paying higher costs, the whole point is getting the premium experience, not an imitation. Mega Drive/Genesis consoles are dirt cheap, especially if you snipe a lot auction, but it's obviously a unpredictable method of chip supply. As far as desoldering goes, flux, flux and some more flux, and some braid if you have some handy, or a solder sucker. Fortunately soldering stations are super cheap these days thanks to Chinese HAKKO knock-offs, bought one of those myself a year ago and I couldn't be happier. You have to go the extra mile to make sure that it's not assembled in a way that'll kill you, but ultimately you're saving hundreds.


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## ca032769 (Mar 22, 2019)

Yay, mine shows it's shipping today.  Now to find a hack like the Super NT.


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## ca032769 (Apr 2, 2019)

ca032769 said:


> Yay, mine shows it's shipping today.  Now to find a hack like the Super NT.



Now that mines arrived, anyone know of an SD mod to get things up and running?

EDIT: Never mind, when I didn't find it here I should have googled it.  Found it on YouTube and just followed the links.  To find it just google or go to YouTube and search for "Mega Sg Jailbreak SmokeMonster"


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