# The Gaza Invasion Escalates



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

*Jihad Misharawi of BBC Arabic holding his 11 months old son who tragically died in the attacks.*​ 
Three Israelis were killed and four more injured in a retaliation strike againts Israel, reports BBC. Aproximately 200 missiles were launched, 145 of which were destroyed thanks to Israel's Iron Dome anti-missile system.

Controversy around the invasion thickens as news of fatalities surface. 14 Palestinians died in Israel's missile strikes and air raids so-far, mostly militiants, but also children. Heart-breaking photos of BBC's Arabic picture editor Jihad Misharawi, holding his dead infant baby who died in a fire which burst out after one of the strikes againts Palestine are all over the papers.

Political reactions concerning recent happenings are mixed:


> US President Barack Obama spoke to Mr Netanyahu by telephone on Wednesday evening, with both men agreeing that Hamas needed to halt its attacks on Israel to allow the situation to de-escalate, the White House said.
> 
> UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said he was "gravely concerned by the situation in Gaza and southern Israel", urging all the sides involved to "avoid any action which risks civilian casualties or escalates the crisis".
> 
> ...


Egypt condemned the strikes by recalling its ambassador to Israel and summoned the Israeli ambassador in Cairo. It also called for UN and Arab League meetings.

Source #1
Source #2


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## Veho (Nov 16, 2012)

> UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon spoke to Mr Netanyahu and Egyptian President Mohammed Mursi, expressing concern at the "deteriorating situation"


As usual, the UN sits on their asses, "expresses concern" and does absolutely nothing.


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## Costello (Nov 16, 2012)

Veho said:


> As usual, the UN sits on their asses, "expresses concern" and does absolutely nothing.


what do you want them to do?
UN is represented by all nations who have different interests.
they will rarely agree on interventions... look at Russia and China blocking all attempts against Syria
Israel is a much more dividing subject!


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## DCG (Nov 16, 2012)

-.-"
I realy realy hate these kind of conflicts...

We'll never know what happens.
Are the children targeted (or woman) specificaly?
Are the children (or woman) used as shields by militants?

Every media company can show it own "truth" in a conflict area.

When Siria was in the news every day, I kept telling my parents:
Who is the majority? The Anti-assad, or pro-assad? The news doesn't tell us anything about that.
That made them wonder aswell.

@Veho.
They should take action indeed in this one.
What they should do, I don't know. Both sides are stupid :/
The Palistan millitants keep attacking Israeli's. The Israeli's keep occupying Palistan territory.

About the previous revolutions.
The UN shouldn't interfear in a revolution, a succesfull revolution comes from the people, not a external party.
If the majority of the people want change, they can succesfully take over the country.


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## Veho (Nov 16, 2012)

Costello said:


> what do you want them to do?


Intervene. Do what they claim to stand for. 



Costello said:


> UN is represented by all nations who have different interests.
> they will rarely agree on interventions...


My point exactly.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

I'm from Israel so my opinion is biased but some facts

Israel is attacking qassam launch sites
Hamas is attacking Israeli cities



> Both sides are stupid :/
> The Palistan militants keep attacking Israeli's. The Israeli's keep occupying Palistan territory.


 
IMO, you are completely right, israel should give up those territories the moment that the palistan people can promise they wont attack israel anymore

fyi, Israel is not occupying Gaza at all

also:





don't believe all the media says...  no one talks about that picture


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

Now, mind you, children were also wounded in Hamas attacks againts Israel - both sides express very little concern about collateral and both sides should re-evaluate their priorities.


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## Valwin (Nov 16, 2012)

Hamas Recycles Pictures of Syrian Dead And claims them as Palestinian dead


anyway good to see Israel finally doing something. I hope they get rid of Hamas and free the Palestinians


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

Valwin said:


> anyway good to see Israel finally doing something. I hope they get rid of Hamas and free the Palestinians


Wat?

Hamas is a group of extremists, that much I'm willing to give you, but they consist of freedom fighters and desire Palestine's autonomy - no more, no less. This is a territory-based conflict and always has been, religion was thrown into the mix only to stir it further.


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## RupeeClock (Nov 16, 2012)

Veho said:


> As usual, the UN sits on their asses, "expresses concern" and does absolutely nothing.


The thing is, the UN aren't peace makers, they're peace keepers.
If that peace they've been keeping is lost...yeah, why don't they try to get that back?


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## ferofax (Nov 16, 2012)

UN can't even do shit against ethnic cleansing, which was straight flat-out genocide, you expect them to do anything about this?






I expect them to wait until the death tolls really hike up. Then maybe they'll rear their heads up to *talk about it* while injecting their own agendas and interests.

Maybe, if we had strong no-bullshit leaders in that isn't afraid to get a few angry stares from all the bruised pride it's going to cause to the conflict participants. Maybe.


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## WingsOfTheButter (Nov 16, 2012)

the UN don't care, just so you know Israel submitted a complaint about the Hamas rocket attack (which start 2 weeks ago) before we even start the operation


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## Rockhoundhigh (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't have enough expertise to really say much of anything on the subject especially with all the potential bias of historical accounts on both sides. All I know is that the whole war over Israel's existence has been in limbo for way too long. It wouldn't surprise me if I saw news like this again in 10 years.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

WingsOfTheButter said:


> the UN don't care, just so you know Israel submitted a complaint about the Hamas rocket attack (which start 2 weeks ago) before we even start the operation


...and the Palestinian activists submitted a complaint about Israel's policy of isolation of the strip directed specifically againts Muslims:


> On Monday, 12 November, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) has made a written submission, in the form of an Individual Complaint, to Mr. Heiner Bielefeldt, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, which draws attention to the case of Sheikh Omar Mahmoud Ahmed Nofal (47) from Gaza City, Gaza Strip (occupied Palestinian territory).
> 
> During the First Intifada, which began in 1987, following the outbreak of the Second Intifada in September 2000, and as part of the ongoing illegal closure imposed on the Gaza Strip by Israel since 2007, Israel has placed severe restrictions on the movement of Palestinians living in the occupied Palestinian territory, banning them from traveling between Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and preventing them from exercising their right to freedom of worship.
> 
> ...


Israel is not the only party ignored by the international community.


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## WingsOfTheButter (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> ...and the Palestinian activists submitted a complaint about Israel's policy of isolation of the strip directed specifically againts Muslims:
> Israel is not the only party ignored by the international community.


 I never said that, my point is that they could care less


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

WingsOfTheButter said:


> I never said that, my point is that they could care less


Sorry, I misunderstood your point then. 

In any case, both parties have some dirt on their hands at this point and pointing fingers to try and find the "more" guilty party perhaps isn't the best of ideas.

The U.N indeed appears to sit on their seats quite leisurely.


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## WingsOfTheButter (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood your point then.
> 
> In any case, both parties have some dirt on their hands at this point and pointing fingers to try and find the "more" guilty party perhaps isn't the best of ideas.
> 
> The U.N indeed appears to sit on their seats quite leisurely.


I couldn't say it better lol, i'm just glad to see that you don't jump into conclusions


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## Valwin (Nov 16, 2012)

the U.N. sucks I say they need to remake it


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## chyyran (Nov 16, 2012)

Valwin said:


> the U.N. sucks I say they need to remake it



A lot of governments and governmental/internation organizations suck. No one can do a shit about it


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## chartube12 (Nov 16, 2012)

And I thought the US had sent the troops home.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Wat?
> 
> Hamas is a group of extremists, that much I'm willing to give you, but they consist of freedom fighters and desire Palestine's autonomy - no more, no less. This is a territory-based conflict and always was, religion was thrown into the mix only to stir it further.


Hamas is a group of *terrorist*, they had the opportunity to create a palestine country with the UN helps but decided not to because it was more comfortable for them this way to keep terrorizing


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> Hamas is a group of *terrorist*, they had the opportunity to create a palestine country with the UN helps but decided not to because it was more comfortable for them this way to keep terrorizing





> Hamas (Arabic: حماس‎ Ḥamās, "enthusiasm", an acronym of حركة المقاومة الاسلامية Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah, "Islamic Resistance Movement") is the Palestinian Sunni Islamic or Islamist *political party* that governs the Gaza Strip. Hamas also has a military wing, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades. *Since June 2007 Hamas has governed the Gaza portion of the Palestinian Territories, after it won a majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament in the January 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections* and then defeated the Fatah political organization in a series of violent clashes. Israel, the United States, the European Union, Canada and Japan *classify Hamas as a terrorist organization*, while *Arab nations, Russia, Turkey, and most other countries do not.*


 
There you go then - its status is entirely disputable and all things considered, they were hand-picked by Gaza Strip's citizens to govern the area.

Of course, for all intents and purposes, the Gaza strip remains considered to be occupied by Israel, despite the fact that Israeli citizens and their forces withdrew from it during the Unilateral Disengagement in 2005 _(leaving wreckage behind them, mind you)_, but that by itself does not mean that the area is independent. Previous resolutions still apply, and that means that Gaza is controlled by Israel from one side and Egypt from the other - it's not an independent state. This lack of clarity as far as its legal status is concerned causes much confusion in the world of politics.


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## Gahars (Nov 16, 2012)

The United Nations is a powerful peace keeping organization, one that gets a lot of unfair criticism.

Would I like to see the UN intervene more heavily in conflicts like this or in Africa? Absolutely. However, you have to remember that it's an organization composed of many nations, each with their own individual agendas and policies. There's very few times when you'll find a unanimous consensus on what actions should be taken; sometimes, even a majority opinion is too much to ask for.

Why can't we make the UN stronger? Well, we could, but then we run into the issue of sovereignty. If the United Nations could just barge into any nation, coercing them with brute force, that would infringe upon a nation's ability to govern itself. Whether or not a more forceful UN would be a good thing is up to debate, but there's no question that most nations would not be comfortable with a situation like that, and so would refuse to vote for it. 

Plus, it's not like the UN has accomplished nothing. It's brokered peace between nations, advocated for the rights of women across the globe, worked to develop impoverished nations, and so on. It's a handy tool, one that allows the nations of the world to engage in dialogue that simply didn't exist at any other point in human history (Pre-League of Nations, anyway).


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## Valwin (Nov 16, 2012)

Gahars said:


> The United Nations is a powerful peace keeping organization, one that gets a lot of unfair criticism.
> 
> Would I like to see the UN intervene more heavily in conflicts like this or in Africa? Absolutely. However, you have to remember that it's an organization composed of many nations, each with their own individual agendas and policies. There's very few times when you'll find a unanimous consensus on what actions should be taken; sometimes, even a majority opinion is too much to ask for.
> 
> ...


 
I remember when a group of U.N. soldiers raped all the women in Africa and some rape boys in Haiti yep let's give them more power


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## Gahars (Nov 16, 2012)

Valwin said:


> I remember when a group of U.N. soldiers raped all the women in Africa and some rape boys in Haiti yep let's give them more power


 
Incidents like this are horrific and despicable, and the perpetrators should be punished with the utmost severity. To say that the actions of these individuals represent the entirety of the United Nations, however, is quite a stretch.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but rape is not a part of the UN charter.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> There you go then - its status is entirely disputable and all things considered, they were hand-picked by Gaza Strip's citizens to govern the area.
> 
> Of course, for all intents and purposes, the Gaza strip remains considered to be occupied by Israel, despite the fact that Israeli citizens and their forces withdrew from it during the Unilateral Disengagement in 2005 _(leaving wreckage behind them, mind you)_, but that by itself does not mean that the area is independent. Previous resolutions still apply, and that means that Gaza is controlled by Israel from one side and Egypt from the other - it's not an independent state. This lack of clarity as far as its legal status is concerned causes much confusion in the world of politics.


all I see in the countries that classify them as terrorists or not is a bunch of internal interest which actually sucks

I read your article about Israel not letting them pass into their holy city, while I accept that Israel should let them pass for those rituals, me as a citizen of Israel will not feel secure if it actually happened.

hell we don't feel secure at our own holidays...

mind you at first the Israel attacks begun because they were terrorizing southern Israel, yesterday they begun to launch into the center of Israel, a few minutes ago the sirens of Jerusalem were sounded


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> all I see in the countries that classify them as terrorists or not is a bunch of internal interest which actually sucks
> 
> I read your article about Israel not letting them pass into their holy city, while I accept that Israel should let them pass for those rituals, me as a citizen of Israel will not feel secure if it actually happened.
> 
> ...


Y'know, from a legal stand-point, those people are "citizens of Israel" as well - Israel never declared Gaza or Palestine as independent. What you're doing is treating Palestinians as second-class citizens. Not every Arab is a terrorist, and perhaps if people stopped demonizing them, the total number of "terrorists" would eventually dwindle. Treat them like people and they will treat you likewise - what goes around comes around.

The Israeli Government is played the Gardener's Dog game where they remove the citizens they deem fit and relocate them in the mainland while leaving those "unworthy" in a legally-disputable state while demolishing households on their way out. They don't "want" Palestine, but they're unwilling to give away the land it is situated on.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Y'know, from a legal stand-point, those people are "citizens of Israel" as well - Israel never declared Gaza or Palestine as independent. What you're doing is treating Palestinians as second-class citizens. Not every Arab is a terrorist, and perhaps if people stopped demonizing them, the total number of "terrorists" would eventually dwindle. Treat them like people and they will treat you likewise - what comes round, goes round.
> 
> The Israeli Government is played the Gardener's Dog game where they remove the citizens they deem fit and relocate them in the mainland while leaving those "unworthy" in a legally-disputable state while demolishing households on their way out. They don't "want" Palestine, but they're unwilling to give away the land it is situated on.


dude, Israel doesn't want to control Gaza... the problem is neither does Egypt.

Israel supplies electricity and water to Gaza, without receiving any kind of payment back... if Hamas would give up their armament, stop terrorizing Israel and try to actually create the state of Palestine peacefully the pressure the U.N. and the us will make Israel back up... but like I said before, Hamas is comfortable with this situation, they don't need to supply anything to the people that chose them and can keep terrorizing.


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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Y'know, from a legal stand-point, those people are "citizens of Israel" as well - Israel never declared Gaza or Palestine as independent. What you're doing is treating Palestinians as second-class citizens. Not every Arab is a terrorist, and perhaps if people stopped demonizing them, the total number of "terrorists" would eventually dwindle. Treat them like people and they will treat you likewise - what goes around comes around.
> 
> The Israeli Government is played the Gardener's Dog game where they remove the citizens they deem fit and relocate them in the mainland while leaving those "unworthy" in a legally-disputable state while demolishing households on their way out. They don't "want" Palestine, but they're unwilling to give away the land it is situated on.


 
Wha wha wha, if you lived here you'd understand... you seem to be way off.

Basically, in my terms, you're saying this "You're treating terrorists badly , and so they terrorize, please, just let them shoot people freely, it's unfair you don't let them!"

I want to see you letting a killer into your house and saying they are just killers, if you let them in, they won't kill ;P hey, the killers are your citizens as well, you should let them in!


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> dude, Israel doesn't want to control Gaza... the problem is neither does Egypt.
> 
> Israel supplies electricity and water to Gaza, without receiving any kind of payment back... if Hamas would give up their armament, stop terrorizing Israel and try to actually create the state of Palestine peacefully the pressure the U.N. and the us will make Israel back up... but like I said before, Hamas is comfortable with this situation, they don't need to supply anything to the people that chose them and can keep terrorizing.


How is any of this reason to unjustifiably oppress the population with clearly unfair legislature? Israel should be the bigger man here and treat Palestinians with the respect they deserve - that way, the public support Hamas gets would eventually fade. Believe it or not, civilians don't _want_ war unless they feel threatened or oppressed, and Palestinians have good reasons to feel that way.

There's a number of laws imposed by Israel that are clearly aimed at making the average Arab's life as inconvenient as possible. One thing needs to be straightened out - an Israeli doesn't necessarily mean "Jew" - Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. Israel has citiziens of various backgrounds, including those of Arabic or Ethiopian origin and they need to forget about the Zionistic approach towards governing the country entirely. State and religion should be kept as far apart as humanly possible, but neither the Israeli nor the Arabs seem to be capable to do so.



crystal107 said:


> Basically, in my terms, you're saying this "You're treating terrorists badly , and so they terrorize, please, just let them shoot people freely, it's unfair you don't let them!"


So you're saying that literally everyone who lives in the Gaza Strip and in Palestine is a terrorist and deserves to be oppressed?

This is just proof to my point - you have no beef againts Gaza or Palestine - you have beef againts Hamas, and as such, you should not oppress the entire population with unfavourable legislature.


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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> How is any of this reason to unjustifiably oppress the population with clearly unfair legislature? Israel should be the bigger man here and treat Palestinians with the respect they deserve - that way, the public support Hamas gets would eventually fade. Believe it or not, civilians don't _want_ war unless they feel threatened or oppressed, and Palestinians have good reasons to feel that way.
> 
> There's a number of laws imposed by Israel that are clearly aimed at making the average Arab's life as inconvenient as possible. One thing needs to be straightened out - an Israeli doesn't necessarily mean "Jew" - Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. Israel has citiziens of various backgrounds, including those of Arabic or Ethiopian origin and they need to forget about the Zionistic approach towards governing the country entirely. State and religion should be kept as far apart as humanly possible, but neither the Israeli nor the Arabs seem to be capable to do so.
> 
> ...


 
You can't really spot who is working with hamas and who is innocent, you know? It's kinda hard to tell. besides, there are lots of arabic citizens in Israel.


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## Valwin (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 what Gaza invasion? There are no Israeli troops in Gaza so the title is a lie


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> You can't really spot who is working with hamas and who is innocent, you know? It's kinda hard to tell. besides, there are lots of arabic citizens in Israel.


I know there's a lot of Arabic citizens in Israel, which is why I'm baffled as to why they're not treated the same as Jewish citizens (ethnicity-wise Jewish). You can't "tell" who works with Hamas and who doesn't, but it doesn't change anything - by stereotyping Arabs, you're only escalating the problem.

Think back to other typically racist examples - whenever a group of people was treated as second-class citizens, it caused civil unrest and often violence. This is not the way to go, racism never is, and making assumptions that every Arab is a potential threat to you is a form of racism, no matter how "valid given the circumstances" you think it is.



Valwin said:


> Foxi4 what Gaza invasion? There are no Israeli troops in Gaza so the title is a lie


Invasion doesn't necessarily mean that ground or air troops enter pass the borders, and besides, we all know that they eventually will.


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## Valwin (Nov 16, 2012)

> Invasion doesn't necessarily mean that ground or air troops enter pass the borders, and besides, we all know that they eventually will.


You don't know that it would take ground troops. As there are none yet so the title should have been The Gaza air strikes and rockets strikes escalates or something


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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> I know there's a lot of Arabic citizens in Israel, which is why I'm baffled as to why they're not treated the same as Jewish citizens (ethnicity-wise Jewish). You can't "tell" who works with Hamas and who doesn't, but it doesn't change anything - by stereotyping Arabs, you're only escalating the problem.
> 
> Think back to other typically racist examples - whenever a group of people was treated as second-class citizens, it caused civil unrest and often violence. This is not the way to go, racism never is, and making assumptions that every Arab is a potential threat to you is a form of racism, no matter how "valid given the circumstances" you think it is.
> 
> Invasion doesn't necessarily mean that ground or air troops enter pass the borders, and besides, we all know that they eventually will.


 
lol, it's not racism, come on, if they cared to be treated well, they would shoot themselves in camera saying "we must kills all Jews!", they wouldn't support terror or the terrorist groups, they'd try to sign for peace contract which we tried.. so don't give me this bullshit.
The Arabic citizens that live in Israel get better terms in universities and other places than Jews, just for your knowledge.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

Valwin said:


> You don't know that it would take ground troops. As there are none yet so the title should have been The Gaza air strikes and rockets strikes escalates or something


How about _"Incursion" _then? Will that satisfy you?



crystal107 said:


> lol, it's not racism, come on, if they cared to be treated well, they would shoot themselves in camera saying "we must kills all Jews!", they would support terror, they'd try to sign for peace contract which we tried.. so don't give me this bullshit.
> The Arabic citizens that live in Israel get better terms in universities and other places than Jews, just for your knowledge.


Yeah, that's totally racism. Sorry to break it to ya.

Arabic citizens, or in fact any citizens that are not Jewish are forbidden from for example buying plots of land owned by the Jewish National Fund, which would not be a problem if only the foundation didn't own _13% of all Israeli land._

They are barred from using their right for family reunification _(concerns mixed marriages where one person is Israeli and the other lives in an Israeli-occupied state, it's mainly aimed against Arabs)_ to, I quote Mischael Cheshin, the supreme court at the time when this legislature was instituted, _"prevent the entry of *enemy subjects* to its territory even if they were married to citizens of the state" _meaning that they're treated as "the enemy" by proxy with no background checks whatsoever.

Moreover, citizens who used to live in that area cannot use the Law of Return, as it only concerns Jews.

As for the funding you mentioned, yes it is in place _but!_


> A 2009 study from the Hebrew University's School of Education demonstrated that the *Israeli Education Ministry's budget for special assistance to students from low socioeconomic backgrounds "severely" discriminated against Arabs.* The study found that because there were more needy Arab students, but fewer Arab students overall, educationally needy Jewish students *receive anywhere from 3.8 to 6.9 times as much funding as equally needy Arab students.*


 
_*cough cough* Racist. *cough*_


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## Deleted_171835 (Nov 16, 2012)

These threads just make me aware of all the bigots on this forum. It's sad, really.


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## blahkamehameha (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Wat?
> 
> Hamas is a group of extremists, that much I'm willing to give you, but they consist of freedom fighters and desire Palestine's autonomy - no more, no less. This is a territory-based conflict and always has been, religion was thrown into the mix only to stir it further.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> How about _"Incursion" _then? Will that satisfy you?
> 
> Yeah, that's totally racism. Sorry to break it to ya.
> 
> ...


dude, you don't live here so all that you can see is what the media feeds you...
Arabs pays less taxes(some even don't pay anything), they don't go to the army (by Israeli law everyone should enroll into the army for 2~3 years where you barely get payed to do)
they even pay less to study at some of the universities.
inb4 you say it's racist and they should strip them from those rights


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> dude, you don't live here so all that you can see is what the media feeds you...


No, I don't live there, therefore I am the perfect observer and mediator because I have no affiliation with either side of the conflict. It's the parties involved that may suffer from favouritism, not the outsiders.


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## Engert (Nov 16, 2012)

I propose that this topic should be deleted also.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> No, I don't live there, therefore I am the perfect observer and mediator because I have no affiliation with either side of the conflict. It's the parties involved that may suffer from favouritism, not the outsiders.


thanks from omitting the rest of my post


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

Engert said:


> I propose that this topic should be deleted also.


Give one good reason.





ForteGospel said:


> thanks from omitting the rest of my post


Why would I mention the rest if I had no comment about it?

Any "variety" in the approach towards a citizen is wrong, be it favouritism or mistreatment. Every citizen should be treated according to the same rules regardless of ethnicity. I thought I made that clear.


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## Engert (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Give one good reason.


 
Because people can.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

Engert said:


> Because people can.





Foxi4 said:


> Give one _*good*_ reason.


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## dickfour (Nov 16, 2012)

Isn't it nice how Hamas sets up their rocket sites next to playgrounds then fires indiscriminately into civilian populations?


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## Engert (Nov 16, 2012)

That's the best reason. And it makes perfect sense. The owner can do whatever he wants in this forum.We're just guests here. I can't figure out the swearing though.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

dickfour said:


> Isn't it nice how Hamas sets up their rocket sites next to playgrounds then fires indiscriminately into civilian populations?


No, it's not nice at all. In fact, it's quite horrible and they should be ostracized for doing so, however the wrong-doings of Hamas do not validate the policy to "shoot anyways", especially considering the vast technological superiority of IDF. When a missile site cannot be reached by means of a tactical air strike or missile strike, it's obvious that is should be erradicated via different means.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Any "variety" in the approach towards a citizen is wrong, be it favouritism or mistreatment. Every citizen should be treated according to the same rules regardless of ethnicity. I thought I made that clear.


IF you were trying to say that, then you are completely right

but saying


> There's a number of laws imposed by Israel that are clearly aimed at making the average Arab's life as inconvenient as possible.


is completely wrong, biased by what the media fed you


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> is completely wrong, biased by what the media fed you


Then prove it. I gave you my source quotes from Wikipedia and BBC, now you give me yours to validate your statement. Unless you prove I am mistaken with irrefutable evidence, you're all talk and no do.


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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> No, I don't live there, therefore I am the perfect observer and mediator because I have no affiliation with either side of the conflict. It's the parties involved that may suffer from favouritism, not the outsiders.


 
No, because you don't live here, you have no idea what's actually going on other than what the media tells you.
Since we do, we know what's going on.

Dude, yes, there are laws for this country to keep a safe home for Jews, since guess what? world war two, remember it? yes, killing anything that is called Jew. this is the ONLY country Jews got, ONLY.
Don't expect this country to have a majority of anything else, we got no where else to go, Arabs on the other hand...


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> No, because you don't live here, you have no idea what's actually going on other than what the media tells you.
> Since we do, we know what's going on.
> 
> Dude, yes, there are laws for this country to keep a safe home for Jews, since guess what? world war two, remember it? yes, killing anything that is called Jew. this is the ONLY country Jews got, ONLY.
> Don't expect this country to have a majority of anything else, we got no where else to go, Arabs on the other hand...


Ah yes, the famous WWII argument. Oh, the poor Jews - victims till the end of time. Drop it, you won't squeeze a single tear out of me that way.

Poles were victims of the Holocaust as well, so I'm as close to understanding your situation as it's humanly possible and your affiliation to Israel makes you sound bias. Palestine was there *before* Israel was even made a State - in fact, Palestinians were supposed to get their land back once the Mandatory Palestine - a British-governed state, dissolves. Instead, their land was taken and Israel was created in its place. What's done is done, but the high density of Jewish population in this region can be attributed to the fact that they were re-located there from Europe after and during WWII, not because they were "just there".

This used to be Ottoman Empire's territory - Israel was placed there just because a few thousand years old book said so. Nobody asked the Palestinians if it's welcome there and they actively protested against it ever since.

The "Arabs can go elsewhere" argument doesn't fly when this was their home for generations - it's you guys who popped out of nowhere.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Then prove it. I gave you my source quotes from Wikipedia and BBC, now you give me yours to validate your statement. Unless you prove I am mistaken with irrefutable evidence, you're all talk and no do.


O have already told you and you omitted it elegantly (and don't expect me to look for sources... i have better things to do with my life...)

also you need to understand, Israel is not against Arabs... otherwise Israel would attack Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and all the Arab countries.
Israel is against any terrorist group that becomes a threat against ALL of the citizens of israel... do you think that only Jews live in the south of Israel?

have you heard that Hamas has attacked Jerusalem today? their holy city? where half the population is Arab? are you going to tell me they are a group of freedom fighters for their people? their people want to go to Jerusalem to pry and do their rituals... not go to a destroyed city...

please don't go to the holocaust issue, before the holocaust there were 18 million Jews in the world, after it only 12 remained... a third of the Jew population just disappear

and when the Israel state was created they gave half to Israel half to the Palestine, the Palestine people decided to go to war because they wanted all it....

lastly, we didn't pop out of nowhere... there were Jew establishments before WWII, and the original borders of Palestine and Israel came before the survivors of WWII

leave the religion aside, this is not a Jew~Arab conflict... Israel is not attacking Gaza because they are Arabs and Hamas is not attacking Israel because we are Jews


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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Ah yes, the famous WWII argument. Oh, the poor Jews - victims till the end of time. Drop it, you won't squeeze a single tear out of me that way.
> 
> Poles were victims of the Holocaust as well, so I'm as close to understanding your situation as it's humanly possible and your affiliation to Israel makes you sound bias. Palestine was there *before* Israel was even made a State - in fact, Palestinians were supposed to get their land back once the Mandatory Palestine - a British-governed state, dissolves. Instead, their land was taken and Israel was created in its place. What's done is done, but the high density of Jewish population in this region can be attributed to the fact that they were re-located there from Europe after and during WWII, not because they were "just there".
> 
> ...


 
Well, seems logical when jews have no where else to go. saying it was your home 50 years ago is not valid, it wasn't their home for "generations", besides, this place wasn't developed AT ALL, it was pretty much deserted, and the first jews who came here built this country, it's now what it'd never be without those people, and in those 50 years a LOT of things changed, you can't use the argument of "it was mine 50+ years ago! so give it back!", that's kinda stupid, this country has already been declared to be a home for jews for many years by the whole world, it's nationally known for that, you can't just ask the people here to give up all their rights and homes.. we got no where to go, I dont need your tears, but I do wish you were in the same situation,  it's easy to sit on your big ass and judge from afar. 
If you were to be born here and have no where safe to go, I want to see you give it all up - people worked hard to be able to have a safe land, whether you justify the means or not.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Well, seems logical when jews have no where else to go. saying it was your home 50 years ago is not valid, it wasn't their home for "generations", besides, this place wasn't developed AT ALL, it was pretty much deserted, and the first jews who came here built this country, it's now what it'd never be without those people, and in those 50 years a LOT of things changed, you can't use the argument of "it was mine 50+ years ago! so give it back!", that's kinda stupid, this country has already been declared to be a home for jews for many years by the whole world, it's nationally known for that, you can't just ask the people here to give up all their rights and homes.. we got no where to go, I dont need your tears, but I do wish you were in the same situation, it's easy to sit on your big ass and judge from afar.
> If you were to be born here and have no where safe to go, I want to see you give it all up - people worked hard to be able to have a safe land, whether you justify the means or not.


I'm not saying that Israel should forfeit the entirety of their land, I'm saying that they should forfeit Gaza - there's not a single Jewish person in Gaza, they were all re-located years ago. Declare its independence as a separate state entirely, do the same with Palestine and only then will I have no reasons to complain whatsoever.

It's entirely true that the Jewish settlers developed Israel and practically built Israel as we know it now, but it doesn't change the fact that Palestinians *did* live in Palestine way, way before the Jews were re-located there. The Ottoman Empire started way back in 1453, then it was disbanded and the area was taken care of by the British between 1920 and up till 1948 - throughout all that time, Palestinians considered it their land - they were promised to be given the right to govern it once Mandatory Palestine dissolves. To quote, "When they are ready to govern themselves" - but that never happened, they became a part of Israel instead. Don't you think that if the situation was reversed, you would feel cheated as well? Wouldn't you protect what you believed was rightfuly yours?

50 years is not an accurate description - Palestinians were there for generations, hence their fervor in trying to regain what they believe is theirs to begin with. How would you feel if a foreign, western power came through your door and said that from this day onwards, your land is actually someone else's? At least attempt understanding the situation from their perspective.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not saying that Israel should forfeit the entirety of their land, I'm saying that they should forfeit Gaza - there's not a single Jewish person in Gaza, they were all re-located years ago. Declare its independence as a separate state entirely, do the same with Palestine and only then will I have no reasons to complain whatsoever.
> 
> It's entirely true that the Jewish settlers developed Israel and practically built Israel as we know it now, but it doesn't change the fact that Palestinians *did* live in Palestine way, way before the Jews were re-located there. The Ottoman Empire started way back in 1453, then it was disbanded and the area was taken care of by the British between 1920 and up till 1948 - throughout all that time, Palestinians considered it their land - they were promised to be given the right to govern it once Mandatory Palestine dissolves. To quote, "When they are ready to govern themselves" - but that never happened, they became a part of Israel instead. Don't you think that if the situation was reversed, you would feel cheated as well? Wouldn't you protect what you believed was rightfully yours?
> 
> 50 years is not an accurate description - Palestinians were there for generations, hence their fervour in trying to regain what they believe is theirs to begin with. How would you feel if a foreign, western power came through your door and said that from this day onwards, your land is actually someone else's? At least attempt understanding the situation from their perspective.


believe me, Israel will forfeit Gaza when the region will stop being a threat to the Israeli citizens...

we don't want to be there, its sinking the Israeli economy, it doesn't makes us look good by any means... the problem comes when a terrorist group is the one ruling the area



> when the Israel state was created they gave half to Israel half to the Palestine, the Palestine people decided to go to war because they wanted all it....


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## dickfour (Nov 16, 2012)

I think Israel should do exactly what China or Russia would do if their neighbor was firing rockets into their cities for no reason except trying to instigate a regional war


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> I have already told you and you omitted it elegantly (and font expect me to look for sources... I have better things to do with my life...)


The burden of proof lays in the hands of the person voicing out a statement. If you cannot prove your statement, it can be ignored.



> also you need to understand, israel is not against Arabs... otherwise Israel would attack Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and all the Arab countries.
> Israel is against any terrorist group that becomes a threat against ALL of the citizens of Israel... do you think that only Jews live in the south of Israel?


You mean like how they fought wars with neighboring Arab states during the Arab-Israeli wars (which I'm all for - it's only natural to defend yourself) during the course of which it occupied the West Bank, Sinai Peninsula (between 1967 and 1982), Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem (which I'm not for, but what can you do)?



> have you heard that Hamas has attacked Jerusalem today? their holy city? where half the population is Arab? are you going to tell me they are a group of freedom fighters for their people? their people want to go to Jerusalem to pry and do their rituals... not go to a destroyed city...


I'm not going to say that, how many times should I repeat that I am not supporting Hamas? I'm supporting Palestinians.



> please don't go to the holocaust issue, before the holocaust there were 18 million Jews in the world, after it only 12 remained... a third of the Jew population just disappear


I know that - I'm Polish. We're made aware of the Holocaust very early in our lives as the Death Camps were located here. I can tell you with 100% certainty that Jews were not the only victims.



> and when the Israel state was created they gave half to Israel half to the Palestine, the Palestine people decided to go to war because they wanted all it....


Perhaps because they lived their for generations and wanted to finally get their land back.



> lastly, we didn't pop out of nowhere... there were Jew establishments before WWII, and the original borders of Palestine and Israel came before the survivors of WWII


I'm not saying that there weren't any Jewish establishments there before WWII, what I'm saying is that the land was predominantly Palestinian (or at the very least Arab) before the re-location process begun.



> leave the religion aside, this is not a Jew~Arab conflict... Israel is not attacking Gaza because they are Arabs and Hamas is not attacking Israel because we are Jews


I agree, religion has nothing to do with this - it's a war for territory. I made that clear, I'm using the terms "Arab" and "Jew" in reference to ethnicity.



ForteGospel said:


> believe me, Israel will forfeit Gaza when the region will stop being a threat to the Israeli citizens...
> 
> we don't want to be there, its sinking the Israeli economy, it doesn't makes us look good by any means... the problem comes when a terrorist group is the one ruling the area


I will eagerly await that day, but until then, my point stands.


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not going to say that, how many times should I repeat that I am not supporting Hamas? I'm supporting Palestinians.


 you were the one to say that Hamas is a freedom fighter group, also if you think about it, you are supporting a group of people that are supporting a terrorist group


> Perhaps because they lived their for generations and wanted to finally get their land back.


they would have their land back if they wanted to, instead they went to war which they lost

today we could have been living after 50 years of peace in the region...


> I agree, religion has nothing to do with this - it's a war for territory. I made that clear, I'm using the terms "Arab" and "Jew" in reference to ethnicity.


 this isn't a war, and no one is fighting for territory...

this is a terrorist group launching rockets into the cities of Israel, while Israel is launching air strikes into those launching sites...


> I will eagerly await that day, but until then, my point stands.


I am eagerly awaiting that day, until then Israel will keep defending itself


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## BlueStar (Nov 16, 2012)

dickfour said:


> Isn't it nice how Hamas sets up their rocket sites next to playgrounds then fires indiscriminately into civilian populations?


 
Isn't it nice that Israeli barracks are near cities? Isn't it nice that IDF soldiers live in with the general population? Isn't it nice that Israel forces civilians to fight and kill, making them targets?  Isn't it nice that Palestinians voting for Hamas seems to make it their own fault when children are slaughtered by IDF attacks, but when Israelis vote for a party determined to continue the system of apartheid and genocide, that's somehow different?


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## Valwin (Nov 16, 2012)

The Israeli Defense Minister approved expansion of draft to more than 75,000 army reservists; request was transferred to the approval of the government


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

Valwin said:


> The Israeli Defense Minister approved expansion of draft to more than 75,000 army reservists; request was transferred to the approval of the government


Looks like I won't have to have the thread's title changed then - it's going to be a full-on invasion soon.


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## Valwin (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Looks like I won't have to have the thread's title changed then - it's going to be a full-on invasion soon.


 
*18:22 GMT: *Israeli army announces it's closing three major roads around the Gaza Strip and declaring them closed military zones. 
Hospitals in Israel have reportedly been given emergency protocols. All who are not in need of urgent care are being sent home.

well I guess no one can stop it now.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

Valwin said:


> *18:22 GMT: *Israeli army announces it's closing three major roads around the Gaza Strip and declaring them closed military zones.
> Hospitals in Israel have reportedly been given emergency protocols. All who are not in need of urgent care are being sent home.
> 
> well I guess no one can stop it now.


inb4U.SForcesEnterGazaTo"Stabilize"TheSituation, anyone?


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> Isn't it nice that Israeli barracks are near cities? Isn't it nice that IDF soldiers live in with the general population? Isn't it nice that Israel forces civilians to fight and kill, making them targets? Isn't it nice that Palestinians voting for Hamas seems to make it their own fault when children are slaughtered by IDF attacks, but when Israelis vote for a party determined to continue the system of apartheid and genocide, that's somehow different?


 
most of the Israeli barracks are in the middle of the desert, nowhere near cities the closest one are some kilometers outside the city itself
where do you want your 18 year old son live if not with his family?
Israel doesn't force civilians to kill... where did you hear that? even if you get enrolled into the army, if you refuse to fight no one forces you
Palestinians voted for a terrorist group to represent them... we voted for a capitalist party that wanted coexist with Palestinians many times
what genocide? do you actually think we have death camps or something?
and last, it's nice of you to use the name IDF, do you know what it stands for? Israel *Defense* Force


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> (...) its nice of you to use the name IDF, do you know what it stands for? Israel *Defense* Force


And *SS* stands for _Die Schutzstaffel der NSDAP_, meaning _*Defense* Corps of NSDAP_, your point being?

The name doesn't always mirror the policies or methods.


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## BlueStar (Nov 16, 2012)

But this is what we hear, on the reverse side, isn't it? "Oh well, shame about those dead children but the military commanders shouldn't have been 'hiding amongst civilians'." I'm sure Hamas would prefer to kill IDF soldiers. Why not stop them 'hiding amongst civilians' and put them somewhere where Hamas can target them separately? Militants don't live in Terrorland, they have families and need to get bread from the store like anyone else. Seeing as Gaza is essentially a prison, the area of operations is going to be pretty limited. Are they going to say "Well, that Israeli tank is near a school, but we'd better not fire rockets from near the school (even if it's empty and has been evacuated) we'll go somewhere else and fire a rocket at a bush instead?' Some of the justifications you hear for things no country other than Israel would get away with is just absurd.

As for the 'Israeli *Defense* Force', that's a bit like saying '_*Democratic* People's Republic of Korea' _Judge on actions, not words. Israel has demonstrated it wants expansion, invasion and elimination, not 'defense'. (although how far they go with this depends - as an election is coming up, it's time to show' strength' by blowing fuck out of people from a safe distance.)


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## ForteGospel (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> And *SS* stands for _Die Schutzstaffel der NSDAP_, meaning _*Defense* Corps of NSDAP_, your point being?
> 
> The name doesn't always mirror the policies or methods.


how i wish i could change bodies with you right now, not to "see and feel" what it is to be here, but so you could hear what is taught in IDF

not going to happen so... only wishfull thinking



> Israel has demonstrated it wants expansion, invasion and elimination, not 'defense'.


 i dont know where you are hearing things... believe me this is not about territory neither religion... or dont, as all i said until now just got into deaf ears...


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## KingVamp (Nov 16, 2012)

chartube12 said:


> And I thought the US had sent the troops home.


If I'm not mistaken, they are suppose to leave completely by sometime in 2014.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

It is an incredibly rare occurance that I fully agree with BlueStar, and this time I do. Neither the soldiers nor the so-called "terrorists" have any express reason at all to target civilians or cause collateral. That said, their movements are dictated by the higher-up's and those are the people we should start observing.


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## WingsOfTheButter (Nov 16, 2012)

*I have no intention to start new argument here*, I'm just trying to put thing under perspective, you need to understand that IDF is going against group that disguise themselves among civilians so the chances that innocent people won't get hurt is very low, while on the other hand Hamas attack Israeli civilians on almost daily basis, because he believed that our place should be among the fishies in the sea, just take for example Lebanon after IDF gets out of there we got quiet, also the Arabs in Israel have good life, believe it or not we live peacefully together, they work as doctors nurses and so, also in most cases they don't get judge by thier race check out this video *(just to be clear I'm not saying that it not happening*)  
About 75,000 army reservists yes they were called but that doesn't mean they are going inside* yet*, they got called for just for standby for the worst case scenario


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## emigre (Nov 16, 2012)

Why has Israel attacked Gaza now?- A short video from Jonathan Freedland where he provides possible reasons for Israel's actions. It seems, at least partially, there's a Machiavellian rational behind it all. Pretty interesting as well as depressingly cynical. 

Regarding the conflict, I can't say I will ever find myself trusting of Israel considering their history of oppression and breaking international law which has always left me dubious whether they actually want peace.


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## dickfour (Nov 16, 2012)

I'm going to support the side that doesn't treat women like garbage, you know throw acid in little girls faces for looking at boys. I'll support the side that doesn't kill homosexuals. That'd be Israel


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

dickfour said:


> I'm going to support the side that doesn't treat women like garbage, you know throw acid in little girls faces for looking at boys. I'll support the side that doesn't kill homosexuals. That'd be Israel


Don't worry - they're too busy firing missiles at schools to notice your support.

Seriously though, both sides of the conflict are pretty nasty. IDF's known for not caring much about Human Rights, Hamas uses terror tactics and shoots at what appears to be random locations. Not an easy choice, perhaps it's best to remain neutral rather than support either side.


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## g4jek8j54 (Nov 16, 2012)




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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

g4jek8j54 said:


>




can't watch this any longer... this british dude knows nothing about what's going on in here... and he uses phrases like "psychopathic methods/names" etc etc - what the hell... have you ever considered that there may be a good reason for stuff and people don't just go and enjoy having a war? What kind of a reporter is this, missing a brain maybe? There was nothing psychopathic about fighting against those who were bombing us for 2 weeks while we were quiet, the army can't just sit aside while citizens are being terrorized, that would be madness... gee, I watch these shows and I don't really wonder why people think so many bad things about Israel, media makes sure to put this country in a bad light.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> gee, I watch these shows and I don't really wonder why people think so many bad things about Israel, media makes sure to put this country in a bad light.


Yep, the whole world just conspires againts Israel 24/7. Truth to be told, Europe and the U.S helped you establish the State, regularily chipped in to help it develop and sold you weapons and technology for sh*ts and giggles - all we really wanted was someone to complain about.

...Not.

There's a golden rule about opinions - when one person tells you that you're doing something wrong and you should stop, this person may very well be wrong... however, when you repeatedly hear the same thing from many people coming from different places in the world with different backgrounds, it's a good _hint_ that _perhaps you should have a better look at what's going on, because there just may be a grain of truth in the criticism._

You're saying that the mass-media has an anti-Israeli agenda and spreads false propaganda, and I'm going to say that _your government is lying to you, you think they're doing things by the book, but in all factuality, half of the "war efforts" of Israel could be considered war crimes if they were committed by another country, but the world turns a blind eye to it because "Criticize Israel = Anti-Semitism Accusations",_ and how are you going to respond to that? Are you going to correct me? With what? After all, it's just an opinion.


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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Yep, the whole world just conspires againts Israel 24/7. Truth to be told, Europe and the U.S helped you establish the State, regularily chipped in to help it develop and sold you weapons and technology for sh*ts and giggles - all we really wanted was someone to complain about.
> 
> ...Not.
> 
> ...


 
Pretty simple, if all you say is true.. why would they barely let the other person get the facts they are ignoring? they ignored a tons of facts about what actually happens here... so if they are so so right, why do they ignore those facts and dont consider them?
If they are so so right, and really have no interests of going against Israeli decisions other than being good people... then why the missing facts? why the omitting of important details that make the picture look a LOT different? if they at LEAST took them into consideration, but they dont. people die here? meh it's ok, they are just israeli civilians, they are strong we can ignore that... people die there? OMG Israel are such a devil! how dare they kill people who are so poor and helpless!
So the way they present it, is how I know it's all bullshit, if they gathered all the facts and presented them properly and still be against Israel, then sure, why not.

As for your golden rule, If you want me to go ahead and find you how rumors can ruin people's lives when they are all based on lies, I am sure I will find something. You're mistaken if you think mass opinions can't be wrong, when you omit important details, it's easy to be wrong.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Pretty simple, if all you say is true.. why would they barely let the other person get the facts they are ignoring? they ignored a tons of facts about what actually happens here... so if they are so so right, why do they ignore those facts and dont consider them?
> If they are so so right, and really have no interests of going against Israeli decisions other than being good people... then why the missing facts? why the omitting of important details that make the picture look a LOT different? if they at LEAST took them into consideration, but they dont. people die here? meh it's ok, they are just israeli civilians, they are strong we can ignore that... people die there? OMG Israel are such a devil! how dare they kill people who are so poor and helpless!
> So the way they present it, is how I know it's all bullshit, if they gathered all the facts and presented them properly and still be against Israel, then sure, why not.


Please name those important facts here, I will gladly read about your point of view. So-far, all you're saying is that you have important facts, but you're not presenting any.



crystal107 said:


> As for your golden rule, If you want me to go ahead and find you how rumors can ruin people's lives when they are all based on lies, I am sure I will find something. You're mistaken if you think mass opinions can't be wrong, when you omit important details, it's easy to be wrong.


 
Listen - these are not rumours. Those correspondents are _there_, they're _seeing_ the situation with their _eyes_ and hearing it _with their ears_ - they simply have a different point of view because they likely weren't brought up in the area, so of all people there, _they_ are going to be the most objective.

No self-respecting country would bomb a football field or a funeral, regardless of whether or not there are militians there simply because there are too many civilians on-site - you just _don't do that._


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## crystal107 (Nov 16, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Please name those important facts here, I will gladly read about your point of view. So-far, all you're saying is that you have important facts, but you're not presenting any.


 
Oh it's easy, for starters, try to watch that news edition, with the fat guy who is being ganged by 3 other reporters, who hold a negative opinion, trying to present facts that don't agree with their opinions, try to listen and watch carefully, tell me if they even care to listen to what he has to say that they don't know... please, watch that, if you gonna tell me they actually tried to listen and weren't ganging on him , then I'm out of this argument.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Oh it's easy, for starters, try to watch that news edition, with the fat guy who is being ganged by 3 other reporters, who hold a negative opinion, trying to present facts that don't agree with their opinions, try to listen and watch carefully, tell me if they even care to listen to what he has to say that they don't know... please, watch that, if you gonna tell me they actually tried to listen and weren't ganging on him , then I'm out of this argument.


He was from the _Zionist Organisation of America_, what kind of objectivity are you even expecting from him? News flash - _he's going to defend Israel to the last drop of his blood - he's a Zionist_. It's the equivalent of _asking an NRA member about his or her opinions on hunting for crying out loud._

For your information, Zionism is considered by many to be in fact a form of racism, and I certainly don't feel in the mood to listen to him either, although I will just for your convenience - I'm sure he'll have a whole lot of Strawman's for me to enjoy.


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## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

so will other arab nations join the conflict ?


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## Foxi4 (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> so will other arab nations join the conflict ?


Here's for hoping that they won't and that the conflict can be quenched in a matter of days. We don't want another Arab-Israeli war - that's for sure.


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## crystal107 (Nov 17, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> He was from the _Zionist Organisation of America_, what kind of objectivity are you even expecting from him? News flash - _he's going to defend Israel to the last drop of his blood - he's a Zionist_. It's the equivalent of _asking an NRA member about his or her opinions on hunting for crying out loud._
> 
> For your information, Zionism is considered by many to be in fact a form of racism, and I certainly don't feel in the mood to listen to him either, although I will just for your convenience - I'm sure he'll have a whole lot of Strawman's for me to enjoy.


 
Look, all I'm saying is, yes, mass opinions can be wrong, why you think world war 2 happened? a lot of people were killed based on RELIGION and racism with a huge public support... so don't you tell me there's no way in the world israel is being discriminated for the wrong reasons.

If you don't support what he has to say, I can understand, though, who could present the facts of what's going on here other than people who actually live here? I wonder...
Also, I do agree it's sad they chose a religious person to support Israel.. again, seems like they are trying to make Israel look bad, even if you don't think there's a propaganda going on, this news cast kinda screams it. 

Just for the record, I personally hate religion, am against the whole idea, and I wish religions were none existent, but I know for a fact, that people hate based on those things, and there's nothing to do other than protecting the only safe place left.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 17, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Look, all I'm saying is, yes, mass opinions can be wrong, why you think world war 2 happened? a lot of people were killed based on RELIGION and racism with a huge public support... so don't you tell me there's no way in the world israel is being discriminated for the wrong reasons.


Your knowledge about WWII appears to be very limited. Religion and ethnicity was a pretense Hitler used in his political campaign - a ploy. Germany was in an incredibly bad financial situation and embargos, limitations and post-WWI reparations imposed on the country made it unable to properly re-structure. At the time, Jews were, for the most part, running loan banks as well as pawn shops and were often accused of usury - the tension between Germans and Jews did not start with Hitler, they were hated before as people believed they were making business on their misfortune, as pawn brokers and loansharks do. Hitler knew that if he chooses to make anti-semitism a part of his propaganda, in conjunction with a promise of a better future due to completely ignoring the limitations imposed on Germany, creating the third reich and returning Germany to its former glory, he will rapidly gain the support of the populace. It's uncertain and quite disputable whether he was an anti-semite or not - in fact, he had plenty of Jewish friends in his younger days and there's strong evidence of that. His anti-semitism surfaced much later, and reached its peak after he went insane - he was simply well-aware that this kind of an ideology will put him in power, and as a politician extrodenaire, he seized this opportunity. World War II was anything but about religion - it was about power. Germans wanted to "find the people responsible for their hardships" and "It's the Jew's fault!" simply fell on fertile ground.



> If you don't support what he has to say, I can understand, though, who could present the facts of what's going on here other than people who actually live here? I wonder...


I think you missed the part where he's located in America. The British correspondent whom you quickly ignored is actually in Gaza as we speak. According to your logic, his account is more accurate.


> Also, I do agree it's sad they chose a religious person to support Israel.. again, seems like they are trying to make Israel look bad, even if you don't think there's a propaganda going on, this news cast kinda screams it.


Zionism has many faces - the core belief is simply propagating the Jewish culural identity, but it rarely ends there. There's nothing in this video that would suggest that this is a religious man, and even if it was, I would not discriminate him for his religion - I wouldn't pay attention to him because Zionism is the extreme opposite of anti-semitism - it's putting Jews above other nations for contrived reasons, for example the fact that they're "the chosen nation".



> Just for the record, I personally hate religion, am against the whole idea, and I wish religions were none existent, but I know for a fact, that people hate based on those things, and there's nothing to do other than protecting the only safe place left.


I'm fully aware that people can hate others based on religion or ethnicity and I fully support defending one's homeland againts enemy incursion - what I do not support is Israel's clearly injust and transparent agenda againts Arabs.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 17, 2012)

dickfour said:


> I'm going to support the side that doesn't treat women like garbage,


 
Which side are you talking about again? The ones that have extremists that attack and harras girls for going to school? Who assault, spit at and threaten women for dressing 'immodestly'? You'll have to narrow it down as bit.

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...-ultra-orthodox-jews-in-israel/1#.UKdPh2ee7S0

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15237018



> you know throw acid in little girls faces for looking at boys.


 
I can't find any examples of this happening in Palestine. I presume you're talking about this case in Pakistan, which I guess means when you're talking about 'sides' you mean that you'll just side against Muslims in general in every given dispute and hold everyone in Gaza responsible for a crime that happened 2000 miles away.




> I'll support the side that doesn't kill homosexuals.


 
Ah, yes, Pinkwashing. Glad to see you got the memo to try that tactic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/o...-israels-use-of-gays-as-a-messaging-tool.html


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 17, 2012)

The IDF have sure been doing a lot of 'defending' over the years


----------



## WingsOfTheButter (Nov 17, 2012)

*crystal107* my friend it's just not worth your nerve they already made up their mind like the rest of the world that Israel is the "big bad wolf", I thought that maybe if I try a more considered approach maybe they will understand but "surprise" they just don't get it, it's so easy to judge someone while you are sitting comfortably in your warm cozy home and get feed up by the media (who keep "forgetting" that the coin have two sides), I wish for all of you to suffer what we, the Israelis civilians suffer,  also I'm taking back my words "I'm glad to see that you don't jump into conclusions" because you are not only jumping on them you are flying in top speed,  - I'm outta here bye -


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 17, 2012)

BlueStar, I'm lovin' that post - I knew that Israel annexed or occupied quite a lot of land throughout the years, but I never bothered checking how much exactly. Great reference picture!

Yes, WingsOfTheButter, nobody understands but you guys etc. etc., you're cause is noble and whatnot, we all have to grow up, _blah blah blah..._

Look, we're analyzing facts here - you may or may not like our conclusions, but that's the truth. You say we're manipulated by massmedia, I say you're manipulated by your government and put a blind eye on many injustices in your own back yard.


----------



## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 17, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> The IDF have sure been doing a lot of 'defending' over the years
> *Snip*


What do the grey areas on the map represent?


----------



## mad_gamer_jad (Nov 17, 2012)

I have a feeling that whenever a discussion about Israel starts, I cannot participate because I know it's an extremely sensitive subject to me and I'll probably end up sounding biased.
However, I just wanted to say to those who argue that you have to be in Israel to know what's going on, it can go both ways


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 17, 2012)

BobTheJoeBob said:


> What do the grey areas on the map represent?


It shows the parts inside the original UN borders which have been taken over by Israeli settlers


----------



## Glyptofane (Nov 17, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> It shows the parts inside the original UN borders which have been taken over by Israeli settlers


 
Illegal settlements.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

what bluestar fails to mention that most of the extra land was WON by the law of war  if someone declares war  on you and you kick their asses you can get land  also they fail to mention that Jordan  annexe the west bank while Egypt took gaza and while in control they never let the Palestinians become a nation but as  also iit haves become clear what foxi4 s doing  he lives all the way in Poland so he know nothing of wich he speaks


----------



## Glyptofane (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> what bluestar fails to mention that most of the extra land was WON by the law of war if someone declares war on you and you kick their asses you can get land also they fail to mention that Jordan annexe the west bank while Egypt took gaza and while in control they never let the Palestinians become a nation but as also iit haves become clear what foxi4 s doing he lives all the way in Poland so he know nothing of wich he speaks


 
A large plot in the events leading up to and including WWI and II was essentially to topple the Ottoman Empire in order to establish the fake terror state of Israel. It wasn't worth it and still isn't justified even as facts on the ground today. As the UK and US empires rot, autonomy will eventually be restored to the rightful and indigenous people of Palestine.

Also, many modern Israelis are Polish including their demonic prime minister Netanyahu (nee: Milikowski), so foxi4 has as much say as anyone in this.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> what bluestar fails to mention that most of the extra land was WON by the law of war  if someone declares war  on you and you kick their asses you can get land  also they fail to mention that Jordan  annexe the west bank while Egypt took gaza and while in control they never let the Palestinians become a nation but as  also iit haves become clear what foxi4 s doing  he lives all the way in Poland so he know nothing of wich he speaks



So I guess if a group of Muslim states declare war on Israel, blow the hell out of it and take it over, they're rightfully entitled to it, no takesies backsies?


----------



## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

clownb said:


> A large plot in the events leading up to and including WWI and II was essentially to topple the Ottoman Empire in order to establish the fake terror state of Israel. It wasn't worth it and still isn't justified even as facts on the ground today. As the UK and US empires rot, autonomy will eventually be restored to the rightful and indigenous people of Palestine.


 
terror state of israel   UK and US empires  wtf am I reading

So you're one of those socialist communist that love those ideals but some reason live in a capitalist country yea seem legit hhahaahahah  sure is easy been communist in capitalist country


----------



## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> So I guess if a group of Muslim states declare war on Israel, blow the hell out of it and take it over, they're rightfully entitled to it, no takesies backsies?


 
as I said Israel didn't declare war; they defended and the losers got to pay for it

but if country A declares war on country b country who was defending and B wins you can take land e war ect look what happened to the Japanese empire they lost everything


----------



## Glyptofane (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> terror state of israel UK and US empires wtf am i reading
> 
> So you're one of those socialist communist that love those ideals but some reason live in a capitalist country yea seem legit hhahaahahah sure is easy been communist in capitalist country


 
I am a libertarian constitutionalist.



Valwin said:


> as I said Israel didn't declare war; they defended and the losers got to pay for it
> 
> but if country A declares war on country b country who was defending and B wins you can take land e war ect look what happened to the Japanese empire they lost everything


 
The pretext of self defense is a fantasy considering Israel is a force of invading foreigners.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

clownb said:


> I am a libertarian constitutionalist.
> 
> 
> 
> The pretext of self defense is a fantasy considering Israel is a force of invading foreigners.


 
Israel didn't declare war on anyone

you need to start looking for info yourself and stop letting people give you fake ideas


----------



## Glyptofane (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> is there Israel didn't declare war on anyone
> 
> you need to start looking for info yourself and stop letting people give you fake ideas


 
The very existence of the Zionist state is in itself an act of war.  It is simply Americans propping up an obsolete and unfortunate group of victims culled from Soviet Russia and Eastern Europe.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> o so you're one of those socialist communist that love those ideals but some reason live in a capitalist country yea seem legit hhahaahahah sure is easy been communist in capitalist country


 
It's not ballin' liking Stalin.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

clownb said:


> The very existence of the Zionist state is in itself an act of war. It is simply Americans propping up an obsolete and unfortunate group of victims culled from Soviet Russia and Eastern Europe.


 
wow man you got some issues there; the formation of a nation within another haves happen lots of time in our history. What get people mad is that they are Jews


----------



## Glyptofane (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> wow man you got some issues there; the formation of a nation within another haves happen lots of time in our history. What get people mad is that they are Jews


 
If having issues against stealing property while dropping white phosphorus and depleted uranium indiscriminately all over women and children is somehow antisemitic, I would gladly accept the charge.


----------



## Deleted_171835 (Nov 17, 2012)

It's just defense, guys!


----------



## DarkraiHunter (Nov 17, 2012)

This thread is a prime exampe of what's happening in the real world. Everybody has a different take on the subject.
The media can be quite misleading, that's why I'm not taking any sides... yet :x

Edit: Nvm, I'm taking sides. Palestine, lgi.


----------



## mehrab2603 (Nov 17, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> The IDF have sure been doing a lot of 'defending' over the years


Wow. Just wow.
All your land is belong to us.
Edit: How much accurate is that pic? Cause I really can't believe what I'm seeing.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

soulx said:


> It's just defense, guys!


 
o that's nice you really are no up to date with the happening in the middle east before talking lies why no check your info up ?
?



mehrab2603 said:


> Wow. Just wow.
> All your land is belong to us.
> Edit: How much accurate is that pic? Cause I really can't believe what I'm seeing.


 

the ealy ones  are true every nation there declare war on israel and got their asses kick  so israel got new land out of it cuz they won but what the picture fails to show is Jordan and Egypt taking land witch they also DID for no reason


----------



## Glyptofane (Nov 17, 2012)

Valwin said:


> o that's nice you really are no up to date with the happening in the middle east before talking lies why no check your info up ?
> ?
> 
> 
> ...


 
In a sense, you are correct.  People seeking to overthrow Palestine have never been successful in the long term.  During the Crusades, armies were repeatedly defeated and let go by Arab leaders.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 17, 2012)

clownb said:


> In a sense, you are correct. People seeking to overthrow Palestine have never been successful in the long term. During the Crusades, armies were repeatedly defeated and let go by Arab leaders.


what do you mean in the first crusade the took that area it was only after saladin that they were able to re take it is a take and give


----------



## narutofan777 (Nov 17, 2012)

I don't think this is gonna end anytime soon.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 18, 2012)

P.S. am not replying anymore, cause I can see there's nothing here I can do, no matter what I'll bring or present, people here are brainwashed hard by the media, it's damage I cannot fix by myself. It's like trying to turn a religious person into a none-religious - it never and will never ever work. Government or not, I know for a fact cities here were bombed much before we even attacked, cause I was here and I saw it all, but hey, I let the government feed me lies, right? It's amazing how evil my country is for not sitting aside and let it be bombed  fuck logic.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 18, 2012)

Can see on his shirt Hebrew written... lol....so easy to manipulate people.


----------



## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 18, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Can see on his shirt Hebrew written... lol....so easy to manipulate people.
> *Snip*


What's the username of this guy? I can't really see in the picture, and just want to see how much of an activist this guy is.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 18, 2012)

BobTheJoeBob said:


> What's the username of this guy? I can't really see in the picture, and just want to see how much of an activist this guy is.


 
Just look at the picture? I don't know this guy personally, but if you REALLY want to find him out, and if it'll change anything about your opinion, am willing to take the effort.


----------



## gamefan5 (Nov 18, 2012)

So uh, anyone feeling that the 'Brave New World' Aldous Huxley suggested in 1932 is still a good idea?


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 18, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Just look at the picture?


I'm not saying that you're wrong - you may be right, however nothing in this picture suggests what could be the ethnicity of the child.

For all we know, it could be Palestinian - there are Palestinians in Israel, am I right?

The fact that it's held by someone wearing a jacket baring an Israeli Coat of Arms is irrelevant as it's in no way connected with the child itself.

Now, if it's explicitly stated somewhere that the child is in fact not Palestinian, that's different.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 18, 2012)

I can assure you that the force you see holding the baby is NOT and will never go to gaza's lines. kiryat malakhi - you can google this I bet  it's a city in Israel


----------



## Valwin (Nov 18, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm not saying that you're wrong - you may be right, however nothing in this picture suggests what could be the ethnicity of the child.
> 
> For all we know, it could be Palestinian - there are Palestinians in Israel, am I right?
> 
> ...


 
you do know Hamas fake lots of pictures right ?


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 18, 2012)

Valwin said:


> you do know Hamas fake lots of pictures right ?


That's not a Hamas picture though - it's just on some random guy's Facebook page. And yes, I know they fake pictures - I was arguing againts his logic, not his point - it's entirely possible that this is in fact not a Palestinian baby.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 19, 2012)

Everyone's favourite angry taxi driver's take on the situation

!


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 19, 2012)

Here you go

Do watch that, pretty much has all the info about what is really happening.

Great news edition that finally speaks about what's happening and the facts, it's funny how everyone condemns Israel for fighting against terrorists when in 9/11 there were no negotiations with bin laden... 

You are all two faced Israel haters.


----------



## Engert (Nov 19, 2012)

Welcome to the NO SPIN ZONE.

Fox News.
Fair and Balanced.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 19, 2012)

and this:
http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-jon-donnison-tweets-malicious-fauxtography/

I will keep bringing in more material to show you that yes, mass media LIES, and with today's communication, you can easily prove it if you wish to actually check it out.

Bluestar, Foxi4, All I got to say is - Haters gonna hate.

"
*Haters Gonna Hate* *116* up, *38* down​ 
A colloquial saying. It means that people who don't like you will always find a reason to dislike you, no matter how stupid that reason may be.
_"Dad, Jane says she doesn't like me because I write my math problems in pen!"

"Don't let it get you down son. Haters gonna hate.""_


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Here you go
> Do watch that, pretty much has all the info about what is really happening.


Nobody questions whether Gaza shot missiles at Israel or not - what is being contested is whether Israel's reaction is correct or not. I also don't see anything "Islamic" in hiding ammunition or soldiers in civilian structures - why is this man (an Israeli Special Forces soldier, I might add) bringing religion into this? He's manipulating the conversation as to make himself and his compatriots look like the defenders of the Free World - why? "We've been in this land for 3800 years"? You must be joking, of course you were not - you _used_ to be. It's the equivalent of me, being a Polishman, saying that the entirety of Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia and fair chunks of Estonia and Russia are my home and I'm there to stay because it used to be a part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - do you see what I'm getting at? I don't like this man's drive towards violence "Terrorists, you don't talk with - you kill" - can you hear how easy it is for him to say that? I can understand his motivation, but not his lack of restraint. He mentiones 9/11, but completely forgets that America _did_ receive subsequent backlash concerning their "War on Terror" - or have we forgotten about that already?

...and by the way, weren't you the one who tried to convince us that western media is all about manipulating information to discredit Israel and that we're all brainwashed for watching it? You're showing us a clip from Fox News - that's as western as it can get. You can't say that western media are brainwashing the masses and then use western media material to support something that goes againts that statement entirely.

*EDIT:* Oh, and now also BBC. Odd, I guess western media isn't that bad afterall.


----------



## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 19, 2012)

I don't understand how showing us examples of individuals posting lies is supposed to change the mind of anyone who thinks that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is wrong.


----------



## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 19, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> and this:
> http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-jon-donnison-tweets-malicious-fauxtography/
> 
> I will keep bringing in more material to show you that yes, mass media LIES, and with today's communication, you can easily prove it if you wish to actually check it out.
> ...


"Two faced Israel haters"
I lol'd.
You may be mentally handicapped.

Both sides are wrong but Israel claiming self defense is downright retarded.


----------



## Engert (Nov 19, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Haters gonna hate.


 
I don't hate you.
I just want my country to stop spending my tax money into buying weapons for your country.
That's all _I_ want.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 19, 2012)

Yeah, as I thought, this argument is pointless, you ignore what you feel is comfortable, and nit pick on things... well goodluck! and have a nice day!


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> You are all two faced Israel haters.


Excuse me, are you accusing me, among others, of anti-semitism because we suggested that _dialogue_ should be attempted before an attack? Because that's offensive on more levels than I can describe.



crystal107 said:


> Yeah, as I thought, this argument is pointless, you ignore what you feel is comfortable, and nit pick on things... well goodluck! and have a nice day!


...or we could discuss it in a civilized fashion without calling each other haters. But then again, dialogue isn't one of your strong points, so I understand the lack of enthusiasm.

If it makes you feel better, let me tell you that I'm all for Israel defending itself from enemy attacks, but not at the cost of civilian life - two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 19, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Excuse me, are you accusing me, among others, of anti-semitism because we suggested that _dialogue_ should be attempted before an attack? Because that's offensive on more levels than I can describe.
> 
> ...or we could discuss it in a civilized fashion without calling each other haters. But then again, dialogue isn't one of your strong points.


 
Foxi4 is no hater he just needs access to better info ect


----------



## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 19, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Excuse me, are you accusing me, among others, of anti-semitism because we suggested that _dialogue_ should be attempted before an attack? Because that's offensive on more levels than I can describe.


Oh no, you don't understand; anyone against Israel MUST be anti-semetic. I mean, what other reason could they possibly have? It's not like they've ever done anything bad. Lord no....


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2012)

Valwin said:


> Foxi4 is no hater he just needs access to better info ect


My sources of information are always reliable, Valwin. The rest is a matter of interpretation.

I'd also like to add that throughout the past two Israel vs. Gaza threads, you were one of the positive suprises. You've shown that you _can_ discuss things on a civilized level, even when you disagree strongly with the other party and I don't think that it should just go without being mentioned - I'm really enjoying this so-far.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 19, 2012)

Valwin said:


> Foxi4 is no hater he just needs access to better info ect


No, I just kinda gave up, I feel everyone are ganging on me no matter what info I can find... it feels just like that - haters gonna hate.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 19, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> My sources of information are always reliable, Valwin. The rest is a matter of interpretation.


well if  the terrorist group hamas is a good source well ok if you say so


----------



## Engert (Nov 19, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> No, I just kinda gave up, I feel everyone are ganging on me no matter what info I can find... it feels just like that - haters gonna hate.


 
Don't give up.
I don't hate you.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2012)

Valwin said:


> well if the terrorist group hamas is a good source well ok if you say so


I've yet to post a single article that'd have its source in Hamas - I used links from BBC - how is that unreliable? 

I think crystal got the wrong impression, and I'm sorry if I was one of those who instilled it. I won't speak for everybody, but I think it's fair to assume that we're not against Israel, but it's equally easy to assume that we're against needless loss of life when it could be avoided. This thread and the previous one that got deleted were made to discuss said issue and the pro's and con's of certain solutions - they're not aimed specifically at you. Don't feel offended just because the discussion is heated.


----------



## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 19, 2012)

Valwin said:


> well if the terrorist group hamas is a good source well ok if you say so


Foxi4 has said multiple times he's against Hamas.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 19, 2012)

BobTheJoeBob said:


> Foxi4 has said multiple times he's against Hamas.


Oh, thoroughly - I think their tactics are despicable. I don't care much for Hamas, I care for the people who get hurt while we're trying to get rid of Hamas. I'm against all forms of radicals - be it Islamic or any other.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 19, 2012)

Engert said:


> I don't hate you.
> I just want my country to stop spending my tax money into buying weapons for your country.
> That's all _I_ want.


 
or the usa could stop giving so much aid to Egypt


----------



## Engert (Nov 19, 2012)

Valwin said:


> or the usa could stop giving so much aid to Egypt


 
Yes, that too. I want USA out of middle east completely.


----------



## crystal107 (Nov 19, 2012)

Engert said:


> Don't give up.
> I don't hate you.



<3 

Sorry if I was emotional, it just feels like there are many against Israeli actions, while I don't see many options for my country to defend its citizens other than going against Hamas and stopping the missiles... 

I'll try to give in more info and continue this, but bf calls


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 19, 2012)

I imagine if we responded to IRA bombs by blowing the shit out of Dublin and turning one side of Belfast into a concentration camp that we'd be decades away from peace. Funny that there are more than two options. It's not just either 1) Never defend yourself against anything,ever or 2) Imprison over one million people in a little strip of land, starve them and blow the ever loving fuck out of them until they do exactly what you want. Israel's actions are war crimes and while the people committing them think they are untouchable now, history has shown that won't always be the case.



> Gilad Sharon, the son of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, has an Op-Ed in today's Jerusalem Post in which, among other things, he writes
> 
> *"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn't stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren't surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.*
> 
> *"There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing."*


 


> According to Haaretz, Israel's Interior Minister, Eli Yishai, said this about Israel's attacks on Gaza: *"The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."*


 
AKA 'proportionate defence'


----------



## Valwin (Nov 20, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> I imagine if we responded to IRA bombs by blowing the shit out of Dublin and turning one side of Belfast into a concentration camp that we'd be decades away from peace. Funny that there are more than two options. It's not just either 1) Never defend yourself against anything,ever or 2) Imprison over one million people in a little strip of land, starve them and blow the ever loving fuck out of them until they do exactly what you want. Israel's actions are war crimes and while the people committing them think they are untouchable now, history has shown that won't always be the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
They've been too nice; I would send them back to 4000BC for being assholes and thinking all those missile would go unpunished.


----------



## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 20, 2012)

When Israeli soilders are speaking out against their government something is obviously wrong.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 20, 2012)

ThatDudeWithTheFood said:


> When Israeli soilders are speaking out against their government something is obviously wrong.




and USA soldiers went and hide in canada in order not to fight  and in another case   one even cross to north korea this is really nothing new there are crappy soldiers like this


----------



## askaquestion123 (Nov 20, 2012)

ThatDudeWithTheFood said:


> When Israeli soilders are speaking out against their government something is obviously wrong.



That's exactly why 87% of Israeli's that were just polled supported the operation.


----------



## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 20, 2012)

Valwin said:


> and USA soldiers went and hide in canada in order not to fight and in another case one even cross to north korea this is really nothing new there are crappy soldiers like this


Someone saying that their government is commiting war crimes is completely different than someone who doesn't want to fight because they don't believe in something.
In that situation they are running away either because they are pussies or they don't agree with something but in this case his government is doing something completely wrong.



askaquestion123 said:


> That's exactly why 87% of Israeli's that were just polled supported the operation.


Yes, because they are all fighting and witnessing war crimes.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 20, 2012)

Chomsky:



> Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.


----------



## Qtis (Nov 20, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> Chomsky:


No offense, but that basically sums up quite a few war situations in the past. Situations that are considered as being war with one side vastly superior vs the other in a technical sense. Like the Winter War between Finland and the USSR, which ended up being a victory for both sides in a way (Finland was still independent, but the USSR got quite a few important parts of Finnish territory). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_war

Even though one side is considered as being underpowered, it can still be considered war as both sides use aggressive force. It doesn't matter that one side is using one type of missile and the other side another if people die. There is no excuse for either side. 

ps. If you didn't know, Russia (former USSR) is still "occupying" the land lost in the wars. Also it's impossible for a foreigner to buy land from border areas of Russia, but still Russians can buy land from many countries that have borderlines with it


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 20, 2012)

There's a difference between a war between unmatched opponents and simple genocide.  This is Israel's final solution to their Palestinian 'problem'.


----------



## Qtis (Nov 20, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> There's a difference between a war between unmatched opponents and simple genocide. This is Israel's final solution to their Palestinian 'problem'.


If Israel is willing to stop the assault on the Gaza strip, will the missile attacks stop? This seems to be the biggest issue. I'm not saying that the palestinians are to blame, but that the military wing of Hamas has a lot to do with it just like the IDF. Not a single state wants to live in constant fear of a missile attack or a bombardment from either side of the border.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 20, 2012)

If the rocket attacks stop, will the illegal settlements be removed? Will the starvation sanctions stop?


----------



## Valwin (Nov 20, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> If the rocket attacks stop, will the illegal settlements be removed? Will the starvation sanctions stop?


wtf they were removed already.  Are you not keeping up with information or are you just making shit up?


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 20, 2012)

Valwin said:


> wtf they were removed already.  Are you not keeping up with information or are you just making shit up?



What? You think the illegal Israeli settlements have all been 'removed'? Where are you getting this stuff from?


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 20, 2012)

Qtis said:


> If Israel is willing to stop the assault on the Gaza strip, will the missile attacks stop? This seems to be the biggest issue. I'm not saying that the palestinians are to blame, but that the military wing of Hamas has a lot to do with it just like the IDF. Not a single state wants to live in constant fear of a missile attack or a bombardment from either side of the border.


Very true, it takes two to tango.

Both sides have blood on their hands and fighting until either side exhausts their resources is not, and never was a solution. As long as both sides will do their best to achieve peace, sanctions againts Gaza are removed and the state is proclaimed independent, everything will resolve itself as time passes. When either side tries to dominate the other and force the other party to bend to their demands, things go sour.


----------



## Valwin (Nov 20, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> What? You think the illegal Israeli settlements have all been 'removed'? Where are you getting this stuff from?


They were removed


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## finkmac (Nov 20, 2012)

Valwin said:


> They were removed


I like how you don't post any of your sources.


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## Valwin (Nov 20, 2012)

finkmac said:


> I like how you don't post any of your sources.


I like how you don't know anything about the middle east. You should go and read some history, I recommend from 3000BC to the present and especially the crusades as they were very interesting.


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## Engert (Nov 20, 2012)

I have a question for you Valwin.
Why do you seek Western approval?
I mean Israel can nuke Palestine. Why do you seek approval?


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## BlueStar (Nov 20, 2012)

Valwin said:


> they were removed


None of these places actually exist anymore?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_statistics_for_Israeli_West_Bank_settlements

As the first person to know about this, you should update Wikipedia. You've got a hell of a job on your hands though. You can start with the ones Israel made a 'commitment' to remove in 2003.


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## finkmac (Nov 20, 2012)

Valwin said:


> I like how you don't know anything about the middle east. You should go and read some history, I recommend from 3000BC to the present and especially the crusades as they were very interesting.


 
Ignored what I said, eh?

I would recommend that you read these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cartoon_History_of_the_Universe


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## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 20, 2012)

http://jfjfp.com/?p=36125

Makes you wonder how much Israel really wants peace.


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## BlueStar (Nov 21, 2012)

Nice to see someone in western media speaking with candor about the reality of the situation for a change

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/20/palestinians-have-right-defend-themselves


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## Valwin (Nov 21, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> Nice to see someone in western media speaking with candor about the reality of the situation for a change
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/20/palestinians-have-right-defend-themselves


 
Israel have a Right to defend them self against those terrorist of Hamas


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> Israel have a Right to defend them self against those terrorist of Hamas


 
Let it be, they won't get it


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## FAST6191 (Nov 21, 2012)

I have pretty much stayed out of the thread crystal107 but what  you are presently demonstrating is pretty classic victim mentality (to summarise it badly "everybody is out to get you"/"you are all alone in the world which is hostile to you" to the point of ignoring reason that might say otherwise) and worse you are conflating it with that of the mentality of your entire nation which is probably about as infuriating for people to deal with as you claim to be finding some of the others in this thread.

In general the use of conventional military force is looked upon very negatively where there were the potential for other options (be it negotiations or specialist warfare and similar such things- all of which Israel has demonstrated an astounding capability in over the past few decades- if the whole Mahmoud al Mabhouh thing is considered a screw up I can only wish half my screw ups worked that well) and many still see options for said alternatives there. By the same logic random/untargeted attacks on civilian populations are also to be looked upon highly negatively, where it gets tricky (and I certainly do not hold to this view at present) is that if various groups in Palestine wish to self identify as a state of some form (and there is a historical, theological, political and geographical precedent for it) the old adage "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" comes into play and when coupled with said groups being faced with an overwhelmingly superior military force many thousands of years of combat says "use specialist warfare" (again though random civilian targets is not really specialist warfare as much as it is dick move).
I doubt anybody would disagree that the bulk of humanity (various philosophies and religions would promote a lack of escalation or indeed pacifism but those that practice such things are fairly few in number) would find self defence agreeable, however the line between self defence and a provoked measure (and some, indeed several in this very thread, contend some of the sanctions imposed and actions taken could count as a proper provocation) is perhaps not entirely clear in this situation.

In short what you are deeming a clear cut binary division is anything but to the impartial observer and as others you have championed have said "we are not there (and moreover we have nothing beyond a like of humanity invested in such situations)" which basic logic would say allows us to very much be impartial observers where you yourself would have to try very hard to be.


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

FAST6191 said:


> I have pretty much stayed out of the thread crystal107 but what you are presently demonstrating is pretty classic victim mentality (to summarise it badly "everybody is out to get you"/"you are all alone in the world which is hostile to you" to the point of ignoring reason that might say otherwise) and worse you are conflating it with that of the mentality of your entire nation which is probably about as infuriating for people to deal with as you claim to be finding some of the others in this thread.
> 
> In general the use of conventional military force is looked upon very negatively where there were the potential for other options (be it negotiations or specialist warfare and similar such things- all of which Israel has demonstrated an astounding capability in over the past few decades- if the whole Mahmoud al Mabhouh thing is considered a screw up I can only wish half my screw ups worked that well) and many still see options for said alternatives there. By the same logic random/untargeted attacks on civilian populations are also to be looked upon highly negatively, where it gets tricky (and I certainly do not hold to this view at present) is that if various groups in Palestine wish to self identify as a state of some form (and there is a historical, theological, political and geographical precedent for it) the old adage "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" comes into play and when coupled with said groups being faced with an overwhelmingly superior military force many thousands of years of combat says "use specialist warfare" (again though random civilian targets is not really specialist warfare as much as it is dick move).
> I doubt anybody would disagree that the bulk of humanity (various philosophies and religions would promote a lack of escalation or indeed pacifism but those that practice such things are fairly few in number) would find self defence agreeable, however the line between self defence and a provoked measure (and some, indeed several in this very thread, contend some of the sanctions imposed and actions taken could count as a proper provocation) is perhaps not entirely clear in this situation.
> ...


 

Well, it seems like most people here are clueless about what's really happening and all you got is info from media, and ignoring any info that comes from Israel, cause what , it tries to defend itself?

In 2001, my father, who is a bus driver, had a terrorist on his bus, blowing it up, and he was hospitalized for half a year, it's a miracle he didn't die.
Now, you can blame Israel for attacking civilians, but as you can see, Hamas doesn't really care about civilians either, when they got a military force to fight, same time putting rocket launcher at school and hospitals so we have to go underground to catch them.

This may sound cruel, but I wish your fathers died from a terrorist attack to understand there's no one here to negotiate with.


But here you are, sitting at the comfort of your home, under no war, judging Israel for protecting itself from terrorists, while it could be you sitting here and be on the bus that blew up today by a terrorist  yes, a bus. not our military force... a BUS, with innocent civilians that had nothing to do with this war. Not because there was a rocket launcher in the bus... not because there was someone specific they wanted in the bus... just to scare. hence, the name, terrorists.

You are welcome to explain why those poor souls you are defending, are killing civilians, be it women, children, men, when they got a military force to fight? think they don't got the weapons for it? well they definitely got bombs! but it's easier to kill unarmed people, they are all jews after all, so it doesn't matter if you kill a military man or a child. the sad truth is, there is hatred and there was always hatred towards jews, there is clear evidence for that, you can go ahead and say we got victim mentality, but we got facts to back it up.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 21, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> This may sound cruel, but I wish your fathers died from a terrorist attack to understand there's no one here to negotiate with.
> 
> 
> But here you are, sitting at the comfort of your home, under no war, judging Israel for protecting itself from terrorists, while it could be you sitting here and be on the bus that blew up today by a terrorist  yes, a bus. not our military force... a BUS.



Yeah..... I was around for the IRA and such at their height with close friends and family both in Northern Ireland and London (and other such cities often targeted or used as staging grounds) with all the attendant issues there- worse is I see several of the same would be mistakes being made, "there's no one here to negotiate with" being chief among those. I agree that they were probably a bit different in many regards but well- ostensibly living within the country, with support of several members of local populace, support somewhat outside the local populace, reasonable ability to effect things outside their nominal base of operations all does not sound too terribly different to the situation Israel is presently experiencing.
Going by the age of several others in this thread many will have also faced similar groups near to them; Foxi4 seems to be your main sparring partner right now and the combined efforts of organised crime and various Eastern Europe groups (both general and former soviet stuff) and some of the more interesting things that happened elsewhere in Europe (Germany and Greece had some interesting groups that have been tied to things there) and things being pulled apart to this day with a lot of things playing out in Poland. Indeed with many of us having gone through that it is why eyes get rolled when the US brings up its "war on terrorism" but I am going off topic now.
That is all somewhat besides the point and something I sense Foxi4 was dodging being dragged into a "check out my scars" contest so I should probably apologise to him for that- the high level concept discussion is the more important stuff not necessarily "I am afraid for my family so" as that is quite often a bad justification for things as a long term goal or when drastic measures are being considered.


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

I was trying to point out that these people are not poor people who are there to just merely protect themselves while we slaughter them for our funz, they are not defenseless, sure they don't have a developed country, but they surely got a lot of ammo, and it's harder to fight a war against people who use psychological means, by putting rocket launchers in hospitals and schools so if something happens to the launcher ,they can all go and scream " Look at us! we're so poor! Israel are so mean! " it's a great tactic btw,  it seems to work on many many people, including you guys, and it just shows how much they actually care for their own children  and people if they put them under this kind of danger just for the sake of publicity.

You think Israel enjoys those wars? we got a great country and enough space, we have nothing to earn from this other than peace for our civilians. We had no other choice, to remind you, this war started with Hamas bombing cities here for 2 weeks straight, and only from there this whole operation started, If you declare war, be ready for consequences.


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## BlueStar (Nov 21, 2012)

If you've got enough space, why are Israeli settlers building on privately owned Palestinian land?

It's adorable hearing Israelis telling British people they don't know what it's like to live under fear of terrorist attack by the way. And wishing death on our parents is a really classy touch.

Maybe if Israel didn't block concrete from entering Gaza, then the Palestinian government could build bomb shelters for civilians, a luxury afforded to the people in Sderot? I suppose at least there's a flimsy excuse that concrete could also be used to protect 'terrorists' (which now includes anyone associated with government infrastructure at all) Unlike the other things Israel have banned such as coriander, which proves undeniably that the point of the sanctions is to punish, not to protect.


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## BlueStar (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> Israel have a Right to defend them self against those terrorist of Hamas


Do Palestinians have the right to defend THEMselves?


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## bialy_gibson (Nov 21, 2012)

I guess it's off topic, but the funny fact is that in a struggle to gain independence Jews used terrorist methods to invoke fear in Palestinian-Arab citizens and British authorities.


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> Do Palestinians have the right to defend THEMselves?


 

Well if you declare war and start bombing, it's called attacking, not defending. if you kill unarmed Israel civilians, it's called murder, not defending. where's the defending in here?


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

bialy_gibson said:


> I guess it's off topic, but the funny fact is that in a struggle to gain independence Jews used terrorist methods to invoke fear in Palestinian-Arab citizens and British authorities.


 

That's actually quite true, I don't deny that. but it was long time ago, when Jews had no more options for a safe place after world war 2. as for Arabs.. we're pretty much surrounded by many Arabic countries. gee, I wonder why they won't take Palestinians... hmmm maybe cause no one wants the Hamas in their country? lol "Please take us, we will kill people of our own kind to get our goals, we're all good, really! we'll just make sure your children die like ours, by putting rocket launchers in their schools and sending them to their death.. it's not that bad, let us in!"


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## bialy_gibson (Nov 21, 2012)

My point was that Jews used terrorism as a tool to gain independence. Nowadays the situation is reversed, which makes it kinda funny.


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## BlueStar (Nov 21, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Well if you declare war and start bombing, it's called attacking, not defending. if you kill unarmed Israel civilians, it's called murder, not defending. where's the defending in here?


 

So it comes down to 'who started it'? And you think there's only one view on that? If you're a Palestinian land owner and Israeli extremists attempt to take your land by force, are you allowed to defend your land? Or is that fact some people you happen to share a religion and skin colour with might have fired a rocket mean you're in the wrong there as well? If Israeli bulldozers or tanks are coming to demolish your house because they wrongly think it's a terrorist base, are you allowed to do ANYTHING or do you just have to accept it? If Palestinians tried any of these things the other way round, they'd be shot on sight.

Was the Israeli soldier killed a legitimate target by the way?


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## MADKATZ99 (Nov 21, 2012)

Admittedly I don't know much about the war. All I know is that Islam doesn't want Jews to have land; much less want them alive at all. Jews weren't allowed in so many countries, and after the holocaust, people realised they need their own place to live. Maybe it wasn't longer theirs to take, or maybe they were just taking it back? Land has been won and lost through war all the time, I don't understand the hate people have for Jews, compared to the land the Arabs have it's the size of a matchstick in a football field. Again, I don't know much about the never ending conflict, I just like Jews more than I like Arabs.


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## Deleted_171835 (Nov 21, 2012)

MADKATZ99 said:


> Admittedly I don't know much about the war. All I know is that Islam doesn't want Jews to have land; much less want them alive at all. Jews weren't allowed in so many countries, and after the holocaust, people realised they need their own place to live. Maybe it wasn't longer theirs to take, or maybe they were just taking it back? Land has been won and lost through war all the time, I don't understand the hate people have for Jews, compared to the land the Arabs have it's the size of a matchstick in a football field. Again, I don't know much about the never ending conflict, *I just like Jews more than I like Arabs.*


What the actual fuck?

Candidate for dumbest post of the year award?


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## Valwin (Nov 21, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> Do Palestinians have the right to defend THEMselves?


 
Not if they are the ones doing the shooting.


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## BlueStar (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> not if they are the ones doing the shooting.


 
Funny how for every 10 Israelis killed 1000 Palestinians die then, isn't it.


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## Valwin (Nov 21, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> Funny how for every 10 Israelis killed 1000 Palestinians die then, isn't it.


Where are you getting those numbers from, why are you making stuff up?


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

MADKATZ99 said:


> Admittedly I don't know much about the war. All I know is that Islam doesn't want Jews to have land; much less want them alive at all. Jews weren't allowed in so many countries, and after the holocaust, people realised they need their own place to live. Maybe it wasn't longer theirs to take, or maybe they were just taking it back? Land has been won and lost through war all the time, I don't understand the hate people have for Jews, compared to the land the Arabs have it's the size of a matchstick in a football field. Again, I don't know much about the never ending conflict, I just like Jews more than I like Arabs.


 
yeah that's in summary, though people will tell you we just have a victim mentality and that's not legit  but it's a fact, hate based on religion exists, and been there for many years, we had a world war because of it...and I've seen plenty of videos of Palestinians say they just want all Jews dead, wish I had it recorded, but I am sure our haters here will somehow find some excuse for that 


As I said a few posts ago.. Haters gonna hate.



Valwin said:


> Where are you getting those numbers from, why are you making stuff up?


 

cause Haters gonna hate  they will make up statistics too!


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## FAST6191 (Nov 21, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> hate based on religion exists...we had a world war because of it.


Do fucking what now?

The causes and reasons for the continuations of world war 2 (and we probably have to include world war 1 before that) are myriad and very complex not to mention it was far from only people of Jewish ancestry that suffered there (speak to some Romani and possibly some of what would be identified as Kurdish some time). That is just the European side of the conflict too- how it played out across Asia (west and east), Russia and parts of Africa gets even harder to reconcile (see some of the stuff on unit 731). How it influenced a lot of post war stuff also gets very complex; most will look immediately to Russia but a lot of the vestiges of European colonialism were more or less ended as well.
Beyond that a lot of the concentration camp and displacement stuff went ignored for a lot of the second world war (there were a handful of escapees that had their intel dismissed- I shall have to find some of the excellent programs made in the last few years on the subject) so saying that does do well as a picture of your outlook on the world and if you are going to try telling us we are woefully misinformed.... yeah.


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

FAST6191 said:


> Do fucking what now?
> 
> The causes and reasons for the continuations of world war 2 (and we probably have to include world war 1 before that) are myriad and very complex not to mention it was far from only people of Jewish ancestry that suffered there (speak to some Romani and possibly some of what would be identified as Kurdish some time). That is just the European side of the conflict too- how it played out across Asia (west and east), Russia and parts of Africa gets even harder to reconcile (see some of the stuff on unit 731). How it influenced a lot of post war stuff also gets very complex; most will look immediately to Russia but a lot of the vestiges of European colonialism were more or less ended as well.
> Beyond that a lot of the concentration camp and displacement stuff went ignored for a lot of the second world war (there were a handful of escapees that had their intel dismissed- I shall have to find some of the excellent programs made in the last few years on the subject) so saying that does do well as a picture of your outlook on the world and if you are going to try telling us we are woefully misinformed.... yeah.


 

Sure not only Jews suffered by it, but you can't ignore the 6 million Jews that died in the camps. and the facts it's already a small population as it is. and yes, my view on the world is a bit different than yours, since wars here are pretty damn often, it's a bit different living it than just watching the news, you know? People kill for all kind of stupid reasons, religion being one of them, you can keep denying it though, but it won't change reality.


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## BlueStar (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> Where are you getting those numbers from, why are you making stuff up?


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present

Example: 2009 - 1035 Palestinian deaths, 9 Israeli deaths. 

Longer term, looking at child killings, 1620 Palestinians under the age of 18 have been killed since 1948, compared with 142 Israeli children.

Over 100 people in Gaza have died in the last week, how many Israelis have lost their lives in the same time period?


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## Guild McCommunist (Nov 21, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Sure not only Jews suffered by it, but you can't ignore the 6 million Jews that died in the camps. and the facts it's already a small population as it is. and yes, my view on the world is a bit different than yours, since wars here are pretty damn often, it's a bit different living it than just watching the news, you know? People kill for all kind of stupid reasons, religion being one of them, you can keep denying it though, but it won't change reality.


 
There's no denying how many Jews died but quite honestly we didn't go to war because Jews were getting the shit end of the stick sadly.


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## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> Where are you getting those numbers from, why are you making stuff up?


WHERE ARE YOU GETTING YOUR STUFF FROM?!?!?
Atleast BlueStar uses numbers you just say words with no facts attached.
YOU CANT CLAIM SELFDEFENSE IF YOU SHOOT PEOPLE ERMAHGEERD!!!!


crystal107 said:


> yeah that's in summary, though people will tell you we just have a victim mentality and that's not legit  but it's a fact, hate based on religion exists, and been there for many years, we had a world war because of it...and I've seen plenty of videos of Palestinians say they just want all Jews dead, wish I had it recorded, but I am sure our haters here will somehow find some excuse for that
> 
> 
> As I said a few posts ago.. Haters gonna hate.
> ...


The people you are talking about are not the majority of Palestinians.
Most Palestinians want peace.
And stop saying Haters gonna hate nobody is hating simply discussing situations.
Nobody hates Israel or Judaism here so stop claiming they do.


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## emigre (Nov 21, 2012)

Has anyone made any grossly idiotic and offending remark about how if anyone isn't terribly fond of the Israeli government, this means they are antisemitic?

EDIT: Valwin, stick to shit trolling. You clearly lack the maturity to discuss currant affairs particularly an issue as emotive as Isreal-Palestine.


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## Qtis (Nov 21, 2012)

BlueStar said:


> Over 100 people in Gaza have died in the last week, how many Israelis have lost their lives in the same time period?


 
How many of those 100 people were not responsible for some part of military activity/rocket firing? There is no denying the fact that innocent people die (on both sides), but stating all victims of different strikes on both sides as civilian casualties (which happens alot on probably all media around the world) is just wrong. 

@ThatDudeWithTheFood: Probably everyone wants peace in the area. It's a different matter of what to do when there is either rocket fire (into areas with both israeli/palestinians) or air strikes (into areas with both israeli/palestinians). Neither side wants to just stand still and wait for the whole place to become rubble.

ps. As some have pointed out regarding the expansion of Israel, how much of that territory was lost by the other side after *that side* attacked Israel? Not saying the expansion isn't right or wrong, but looking back at history, the same things could be said for quite a few countries (Europe, North&South America, Asia, Africa... The whole planet actually): sometimes territories are lost after a war ended and usually the winner gets some of the area of the loosing side.

pps. Just stop the fighting and start talking. It's a beginning if nothing else?


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## emigre (Nov 21, 2012)

Qtis said:


> @ThatDudeWithTheFood: Probably everyone wants peace in the area. It's a different matter of what to do when there is either rocket fire (into areas with both israeli/palestinians) or air strikes (into areas with both israeli/palestinians). Neither side wants to just stand still and wait for the whole place to become rubble.


 
In fairness, I think both sides may have different visions of what peace is to them.


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## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 21, 2012)

Qtis said:


> How many of those 100 people were not responsible for some part of military activity/rocket firing? There is no denying the fact that innocent people die (on both sides), but stating all victims of different strikes on both sides as civilian casualties (which happens alot on probably all media around the world) is just wrong.
> 
> @ThatDudeWithTheFood: Probably everyone wants peace in the area. It's a different matter of what to do when there is either rocket fire (into areas with both israeli/palestinians) or air strikes (into areas with both israeli/palestinians). Neither side wants to just stand still and wait for the whole place to become rubble.
> 
> ...


I was responding to him saying "I've seen plenty of videos of Palestinians say they just want all Jews dead".
He is singling out a minority and describing them as a majority.
There are probably Jews who make videos saying they want all Palestinians dead but he wouldn't acknowledge those as the majority would he?


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

ThatDudeWithTheFood said:


> I was responding to him saying "I've seen plenty of videos of Palestinians say they just want all Jews dead".
> He is singling out a minority and describing them as a majority.
> There are probably Jews who make videos saying they want all Palestinians dead but he wouldn't acknowledge those as the majority would he?


 
I'm not a He  btw. other than that... I don't really feel like keeping the argument, it won't change anything other than spending my time and yours.


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## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 21, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> I'm not a He  btw. other than that... I don't really feel like keeping the argument, it won't change anything other than spending my time and yours.


Sorry she but why would you assume that.
My opinion can be changed and yours can change theres just not a lot to support what you're saying.


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

ThatDudeWithTheFood said:


> Sorry she but why would you assume that.
> My opinion can be changed and yours can change theres just not a lot to support what you're saying.


 
Let's say our opinions changed.. what now? :\ it's all lost anyways.


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## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Nov 21, 2012)

crystal107 said:


> Let's say our opinions changed.. what now? :\ it's all lost anyways.


Well you could say that about everything.
In that sense all 10 pages of posts are pointless.


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## crystal107 (Nov 21, 2012)

ThatDudeWithTheFood said:


> Well you could say that about everything.
> In that sense all 10 pages of posts are pointless.


 
Even if I agree that my government is totally wrong about its actions, there's nothing Ican do about it. even if you eventually agree that it's doing what it can, nothing you can do about it, such information need to be posted worldwide.. not on gaming forums :S I'm here for the games! though right now studying  so I am spending time I could get a better grade


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## Foxi4 (Nov 21, 2012)

_I shouldn't have praised the day before the sunset _- Valwin is getting _pretty immature_ at this point.


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## Valwin (Nov 21, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> _I shouldn't have praised the day before the sunset _- Valwin is getting _pretty immature_ at this point.


na I was just posting the facts


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## Ritsuki (Nov 21, 2012)

Sometimes I wonder if those people even remember why they're fighting...


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## Engert (Nov 21, 2012)

Engert said:


> I have a question for you Valwin.
> Why do you seek Western approval?
> I mean Israel can nuke Palestine. Why do you seek approval?


----------



## Valwin (Nov 21, 2012)

Engert said:


> I have a question for you Valwin.
> Why do you seek Western approval?
> I mean Israel can nuke Palestine. Why do you seek approval?


 
wtf are you talking about ?

also ceasefire haves been announce  for today so hopefully Hamas will stop shooting missile at Israel  and wont break the ceasefire


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## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> wtf are you talking about ?
> 
> also ceasefire haves been announce for today so hopefully Hamas will stop shooting missile at Israel and wont break the ceasefire


And hopefully Israel will finally remove their illegal settlements and their occupation of Palestinian territories. Don't hold your breath though.


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## Valwin (Nov 21, 2012)

BobTheJoeBob said:


> And hopefully Israel will finally remove their illegal settlements and their occupation of Palestinian territories. Don't hold your breath though.


no need to remove something that was already remove so HOPEFULLY Palestine wont break the truce as the always do


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## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> no need to remove something that was already remove so HOPEFULLY Palestine wont break the truce as the always do


'The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement


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## dickfour (Nov 21, 2012)

It's been a great few days for Hamas. They killed 6 of their citizens and dragged their body's though the streets spitting on them and kicking them. Then they celebrated. Then they bombed a bus in Israel full of civilians and handed out candy and celebrated Then Hamas supporters in Israel ran for bomb shelters as a Hamas launched rocket flew over head. Ironic?
Hamas is a vile terrorist organization bent on killing as many civilians as possible. They're very effective at l,using the victim card and too many socialists in the west buy into the propaganda and make common cause with these vermin


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## Engert (Nov 21, 2012)

Valwin said:


> wtf are you talking about ?


 
lol.
Ok, let me ask you a different question.
Would you pay for six beers if you were in a bar and pick up the tab for the other people?


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## ganons (Nov 21, 2012)

Sick


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## ForteGospel (Nov 21, 2012)

It's really sad looking at this discussion going on and on...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/21/tel-aviv-bus-bomb-gaza-spread



> A device left on the number 142 bus exploded around noon, spreading shards of glass across the road and pavement. Fifteen people were taken to hospital, three of them with moderate to serious injuries, and others were treated for shock. *Police said it was a terrorist attack.*
> 
> There were no credible claims of responsibility for the attack. In Gaza, *where celebratory gunfire was heard* as news of the blast spread, *Hamas praised the bombing* without saying it was responsible.
> 
> ...


 
just to let you know, I actually witnessed this bombing today

today at 9 pm the ceasefire begun... Israel kept doing airstrikes at Gaza until 8:47 pm on 2 military targets, rockets from Gaza kept coming at least until 9:30 pm when I stopped watching the news.

foxi said on page 4:


> Looks like I won't have to have the thread's title changed then - it's going to be a full-on invasion soon.


looks like you will have to change the thread's title in the end


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## emigre (Nov 21, 2012)

Why did you partially highlight the last sentence? To a casual reader it distorts the facts. Or was that your intention?


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## ForteGospel (Nov 21, 2012)

emigre said:


> Why did you partially highlight the last sentence? To a casual reader it distorts the facts. Or was that your intention?


I can change that if it pleases you, he was not captured as far as I know, will it please you more if he was from Gaza itself?


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## Valwin (Nov 21, 2012)

ganons said:


> Sick




I could go to the south of the USA and get mobs like that demanding war ect all nations haves crazy people

I could get you a picture of Palestinians killing someone and dragging his body all over the street


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## emigre (Nov 21, 2012)

ForteGospel said:


> I can change that if it pleases you, he was not captured as far as i know, will it please you more if he was from Gaza itself?


 
What the hell are you insinuating?


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## ForteGospel (Nov 21, 2012)

emigre said:


> What the hell are you insinuating?


I am saying that this was a Palestinian terror attack against civilians, doesn't make any difference to me if he came from the west bank or Gaza.


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## BlueStar (Dec 1, 2012)

Sure enough, Israel swiftly moves to punish Palestine for the UN vote by authorising the theft of more land in illegally occupied areas

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391

In more positive news

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/30/footballers-u21-european-championship-israel



> A group of Premier League footballers and players in other major European leagues have condemned plans to hold the Under-21 European championship in Israel next year, saying it will be seen as a "reward" for this month's assault on Gaza in which young people playing football were killed when a sports stadium was bombed.
> The signatories, who include Eden Hazard of Chelsea, Abou Diaby of Arsenal and five Newcastle players – Papiss Cissé, Cheick Tioté, Sylvain Marveaux, Yohan Cabaye and Demba Ba – also criticised Israel's continued detention without charge or trial of two Palestinian footballers.


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## BlueStar (Jan 17, 2013)

Interesting initiative



> *Israelis use Facebook to deliver poke at democracy in elections*
> Real Democracy initiative matches Israelis willing to 'donate' their votes to Palestinians who decide how vote should be cast
> 
> 
> ...


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