# MAGA Round 2?



## Saiyan Lusitano (Aug 16, 2019)

In 2016 folks were excited about it and thought great things were going to happen (hence 'Great' in _Make America *Great* Again_) but it didn't turn out quite like many had hoped, a lot feel they were betrayed and all. Now Donald Trump is going at it again with the MAGA slogan/ideology and it seems many still fall for it.

Can't say I'm surprised when billions of people feel that being part of a political side (left and right) will ultimately make any change when it's actually the government itself and politicians, not some Average Joe. He promised US citizens to build the border wall but that's not finalized and may not (others don't seem to agree and want it done). Yet, there seems to be talks of Trump buying the country Greenland but hopefully that's just it, talks.

Personally, I don't take sides but support a person who I may agree with. In general I've not found anyone in politics around the world that seems actually genuine, most just, you know, lie their way into power.


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## _______ (Aug 16, 2019)

I meant I won't buy that kind of shit at the first place. But lucky for them the people mostly don't think and money plays a big role when it comes to election. US is now, in some degree, a joke to the international community, like went from 2019 to 1959 in most of the aspects and acting just like China or even worse.

And about that wall...lol, that won't prevent anything, from people to drugs. Just ask a Chinese how well did that great wall work in the past. US is slowly killing itself with those GOP policies, and God won't help them on this one.

As someone who lived in New York long enough to know my fair share of crap of this country, I only hope that this madness could end soon so I can take my wife there to enjoy some cheap musical on Broadway instead of in Europe. The only thing I like about this administration is their policies with China. Currently there's no other bully in the room that can't stop another one except the US.


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## morvoran (Aug 16, 2019)

_______ said:


> US is slowly killing itself with those Democratic/leftist policies,


You mistyped GOP in your post.  I fixed it for you.  
Also, the wall isn't supposed to stop everyone from entering the US illegally.  It's supposed to stop some, if not most.  Think about the walls of your house.  They won't stop everybody from breaking in through your door, but it does inhibit others from stealing your stuff by just walking into your living room.  Not sure why people have this "all or nothing" approach to the wall.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 16, 2019)

Did America lack greatness that it needed to be have some created anew or otherwise see it returned to such a state?


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## Taleweaver (Aug 16, 2019)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Yet, there seems to be talks of Trump buying the country Greenland but hopefully that's just it, talks.


Heh...I just read that myself (link for those who understand Dutch). From the article, it's stated as "less than talks". Or more to the point: he asked his advisors about the possibility, and a good chunk of them didn't take him seriously.

Basically: entertaining president is entertaining. At least he manages to be non-toxic, so it's kind of endearing. 





Saiyan Lusitano said:


> Personally, I don't take sides but support a person who I may agree with.


So...how's that different from taking sides? 

Heck...I'm in no means a democrat, but I'll often side with them because they just so happen to say something I agree with.

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morvoran said:


> You mistyped GOP in your post.  I fixed it for you.


If you want to correct someone, make sure you at least understand what he says. As it is, you're not correcting him but pretending to speak on his behalf. Which is pretty arrogant, if you ask me.



morvoran said:


> Also, the wall isn't supposed to stop everyone from entering the US illegally. It's supposed to stop some, if not most. Think about the walls of your house. They won't stop everybody from breaking in through your door, but it does inhibit others from stealing your stuff by just walking into your living room. Not sure why people have this "all or nothing" approach to the wall.


Hold on a second. That analogy only holds true if the border is currently unprotected. And that's simply not true: thanks to border patrol, illegal immigration is at an all time low. That wall never had any purpose to begin with.

That's also why people have this "all or nothing approach" to the wall: the people who believed Trump believe rhetoric rather than facts. As such, you can't convince them with e.g. the fact that the wall will at best stop some immigrants.


Yes, I disagree with Trump when he talks about things like "invasion" and "caravans". The guy's trying to make the situation larger than it is in order to sell you a solution ("see? I'm in charge and there's no caravan of invaders in sight!")


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## morvoran (Aug 16, 2019)

Taleweaver said:


> If you want to correct someone, make sure you at least understand what he says. As it is, you're not correcting him but pretending to speak on his behalf. Which is pretty arrogant, if you ask me.


  I can be arrogant at times, true.  In this instance, I'm not so sure figuring capitalism, low taxes, protecting the borders and sovereignty of our nation, protecting free speech, keeping jobs in the US, and not murdering unborn children is destroying the US and what it stands for.   
Things like socialism, welfare, killing the children of our underprivileged minorities, blocking speech because someone deems it hateful, promoting violence against those that don't agree with you, open borders, and taxing over 50% of your income has a positive effect on a nation.  But I'm just being arrogant so nevermind.



Taleweaver said:


> Hold on a second. That analogy only holds true if the border is currently unprotected. And that's simply not true: thanks to border patrol, illegal immigration is at an all time low. That wall never had any purpose to begin with.


So if your house had open doors on each side, do you think if you stood in your back yard, that nobody would try to enter through the front?  Who is watching the other sides?  The US/Mexico border is long.  No way can every mile be watched at all times.  That is where the wall comes in and why it is needed.

What does "at an all time low" even mean?  So because last month we had 100,000 people captured at the border but this month only 90,000 were captured which is lower than previous months, things are awesome now.  Ok everybody, every things fixed now, go home.  Nothing to see here.  Wow, just wow. Talk about arrogant.


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## Taleweaver (Aug 16, 2019)

morvoran said:


> I can be arrogant at times, true.  In this instance, I'm not so sure figuring capitalism, low taxes, protecting the borders and sovereignty of our nation, protecting free speech, keeping jobs in the US, and not murdering unborn children is destroying the US and what it stands for.
> Things like socialism, welfare, killing the children of our underprivileged minorities, blocking speech because someone deems it hateful, promoting violence against those that don't agree with you, open borders, and taxing over 50% of your income has a positive effect on a nation.  But I'm just being arrogant so nevermind.


A lot of bullet points. But ey...you're in luck: I've got time today. 

Capitalism and even low taxes isn't killing the US. It's the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the top that is doing that. More specific: that "land of the free" is more and more becoming "land where the rich are free and the poor got to suck it up".
Nobody is against protecting the border or attacking your sovereignty, so you can stop pretending that that's your exclusive claim.

Keeping jobs in the US is a notable thing. It's a long term goal, though. The import taxes help on short term, but on the long term, those US citizens find themselves out of a job because they can't export to other countries who've followed the import taxes example (yeah...that's what these "treaty" things aren't to be taken lightly).

Like it or not, but outlawing abortion pretty much IS killing the US. I'm not kidding on this in the slightest. Just compare the crime rates from a state with the time they legalized abortion. It's not as fun to hear, but unwanted children have a much higher chance of becoming a criminal.

I'm not going into your mockery of democrats. I'll talk when you stop talking in cliches.



morvoran said:


> So if your house had open doors on each side, do you think if you stood in your back yard, that nobody would try to enter through the front?  Who is watching the other sides?  The US/Mexico border is long.  No way can every mile be watched at all times.  That is where the wall comes in and why it is needed.


I'll repeat myself because you clearly didn't understood:

The borders are already protected. As long as that is true (and it is true), then your house analogy is false.



morvoran said:


> What does "at an all time low" even mean?  So because last month we had 100,000 people captured at the border but this month only 90,000 were captured which is lower than previous months, things are awesome now.  Ok everybody, every things fixed now, go home.  Nothing to see here.  Wow, just wow. Talk about arrogant.


It means that things are under control, and tax payer's money can better be used elsewhere.

What you're basically saying is that if someone CLAIMS there is a problem, there actually IS a problem. that might be true, but might equally not be true. And the Mexican situation is investigated thoroughly enough by experts and border patrol to say that there isn't more of a situation than in the past. Shining a massive spotlight on it won't make it larger than it is.


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## Jayro (Aug 16, 2019)

Sure, Trump created many more jobs.. But I have 3 of them, and still can't afford my rent.


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## morvoran (Aug 16, 2019)

Taleweaver said:


> It's the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the top that is doing that. More specific: that "land of the free" is more and more becoming "land where the rich are free and the poor got to suck it up".


All this 99% vs the 1% is just ridiculous.  While I sorta agree that paying CEO's multiple millions in salaries and then laying off the workers that helped the company become wealthy is a problem, the reason this is a problem is due to poor people sitting around watching Spectrum cable tv, shopping at WalMart, eating junk food by Frito Lays, buying overpriced clothes and Nike shoes, using Google to search, and putting all their personal info on facebook.  I'm not talking about everybody, but most people.  You go to work.  The government takes a large chunk of your check.  They give your tax money to these same corporations you give the rest of your money to or to the people who don't want to work so they can consume the same goods as you from the same corporations.  It's an endless loop of despair.
People have become complacent on how things are done.  Instead of actually trying to change the system, they give up and go work for these companies just so they can buy their products/services.  It's not the "rich peoples" fault.  They are only taking advantage of the system in play.



Taleweaver said:


> Nobody is against protecting the border or attacking your sovereignty, so you can stop pretending that that's your exclusive claim.


  You obviously didn't watch either of the recent Democrat debates.



Taleweaver said:


> The import taxes help on short term, but on the long term, those US citizens find themselves out of a job because they can't export to other countries who've followed the import taxes example (yeah...that's what these "treaty" things aren't to be taken lightly).


  US citizens find themselves out of a job because companies are leaving the US and going to other countries.  You can't export McDonalds which may be the only jobs left in a Democrat ran US (if illegal aliens don't get them first).  Good thing Trump is imposing taxes on China and other countries.  Hopefully, more of our manufacturing jobs will come back as some already have. Then we can export more.



Taleweaver said:


> Like it or not, but outlawing abortion pretty much IS killing the US. I'm not kidding on this in the slightest. Just compare the crime rates from a state with the time they legalized abortion. It's not as fun to hear, but unwanted children have a much higher chance of becoming a criminal.


Oh, so your solution to the world's problem is killing people, hmm....  Maybe we could bump the allowed abortion period from conception to the time of birth to conception up to 18 years?  You know, just to prevent crime. 
I think advocating for other forms of birth control and encouraging families would be better the better solution.  Of course, democrats created the laws that take the father out of the household for underprivileged communities and pays women to have more babies.  This encourages crime and overpopulation.



Taleweaver said:


> I'm not going into your mockery of democrats. I'll talk when you stop talking in cliches.


  Truth and facts are not a form of mockery nor cliches. 



Taleweaver said:


> The borders are already protected. As long as that is true (and it is true), then your house analogy is false.


 Some of the border is protected, not all or most of it.  Why do democrat politicians that promote open borders live in gated communities away from their constituents?  Not to welcome them with open arms to let them live in their house or on their property.  This means my house analogy is true.



Taleweaver said:


> It means that things are under control, and tax payer's money can better be used elsewhere.


  Things are definitely not under control.  I don't know what country you come from, but if you get CNN or MSNBC, try changing the channel and watch independent non-biased news.  Illegal aliens are still coming in droves across the border in places where no border patrol agents are stationed.



Taleweaver said:


> What you're basically saying is that if someone CLAIMS there is a problem, there actually IS a problem. that might be true, but might equally not be true. And the Mexican situation is investigated thoroughly enough by experts and border patrol to say that there isn't more of a situation than in the past. Shining a massive spotlight on it won't make it larger than it is.


  Again, stop watching or reading biased news channels/websites.  Do what you want, but it's not doing you or this conversation any good.


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## Viri (Aug 16, 2019)

He's still most likely going to win in 2020.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 16, 2019)

Viri said:


> He's still most likely going to win in 2020.


If he does, I'm moving countries.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 16, 2019)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> In 2016 folks were excited about it and thought great things were going to happen (hence 'Great' in _Make America *Great* Again_) but it didn't turn out quite like many had hoped, a lot feel they were betrayed and all. Now Donald Trump is going at it again with the MAGA slogan/ideology and it seems many still fall for it.
> 
> Can't say I'm surprised when billions of people feel that being part of a political side (left and right) will ultimately make any change when it's actually the government itself and politicians, not some Average Joe. He promised US citizens to build the border wall but that's not finalized and may not (others don't seem to agree and want it done). Yet, there seems to be talks of Trump buying the country Greenland but hopefully that's just it, talks.
> 
> Personally, I don't take sides but support a person who I may agree with. In general I've not found anyone in politics around the world that seems actually genuine, most just, you know, lie their way into power.



There's a difference between making promises you can't ultimately deliver on for whatever reason and downright lying about everything to such an extend that you have to wonder if someone is actually a mastermind or a monkey that learned how to mimic speech.

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Viri said:


> He's still most likely going to win in 2020.


Even fox news, sees him behind Warren, Biden and like those two he keeps tweeting about hating Israel.

If people go vote this time around, he can't win. Just like 2016 he couldn't have won if people went to vote. Ridiculous how many didn't because Hillary had this in the bag based on every poll out there.


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## morvoran (Aug 16, 2019)

IncredulousP said:


> If he does, I'm moving countries.


 You better start looking for a home in the other country and start packing your bags now.  The outlook is not looking good for you.



Clydefrosch said:


> Even fox news, sees him behind Warren, Biden and like those two he keeps tweeting about hating Israel.
> 
> If people go vote this time around, he can't win. Just like 2016 he couldn't have won if people went to vote. Ridiculous how many didn't because Hillary had this in the bag based on every poll out there.


   There has never been a frontrunner in the polls the year prior to an election that has ever got the nomination to run for president. Take these early poll results with a grain of salt.  The polls said the same thing before the last election about Trump being behind Hillary and Bernie.  You know how that turned out.
If more people go out and vote, then Trump will have a better chance of winning.  There are more Republican leaning people than Democrat.  That's why the Democrats are trying to get an influx of illegals before the next election.  More slaves for their cause.


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## Clydefrosch (Aug 16, 2019)

morvoran said:


> You better start looking for a home in the other country and start packing your bags now.  The outlook is not looking good for you.
> 
> There has never been a frontrunner in the polls the year prior to an election that has ever got the nomination to run for president. Take these early poll results with a grain of salt.  The polls said the same thing before the last election about Trump being behind Hillary and Bernie.  You know how that turned out.
> If more people go out and vote, then Trump will have a better chance of winning.  There are more Republican leaning people than Democrat.  That's why the Democrats are trying to get an influx of illegals before the next election.  More slaves for their cause.



man, that's what i get for not reading to the end before writing my stuff, could've saved myself the hassle.
dems trying to get an influx of illegals? you know they don't get to vote, right?

and there certainly aren't more republican leaning people.
_____

yeah, i know how that turned out. the one who got the most votes lost the race. 

the worst thing to happen to dems 2016 (besides that one fbi stunt like two weeks before election) was being pitted against a fated to lose dumbass like trump.

no chance of losing meant dem voters got complacent and didn't go to the polls.
meanwhile, trump managed to rile up his base 'we need every single vote!' and they went. If it was any other president and not this ignorant cunt, I would say that they knew they had psychology on their side.
but they just stumbled into the win unexpected.

that's not going to repeat unless your people really wanna prove to the world once and for all that there's no limit to stupidity.


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## chrisrlink (Aug 16, 2019)

morvoran said:


> You mistyped GOP in your post.  I fixed it for you.
> Also, the wall isn't supposed to stop everyone from entering the US illegally.  It's supposed to stop some, if not most.  Think about the walls of your house.  They won't stop everybody from breaking in through your door, but it does inhibit others from stealing your stuff by just walking into your living room.  Not sure why people have this "all or nothing" approach to the wall.




don't put words in one's mouth idiot HE KNOWS HE MEANT GOP you blind fool sorry i'm just getting ticked off with you always craming your ideals down someones throat like how N tried to in b/w only thing is you don't have a legendary Pokemon on your side just a ideal nothing more

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Clydefrosch said:


> man, that's what i get for not reading to the end before writing my stuff, could've saved myself the hassle.
> dems trying to get an influx of illegals? you know they don't get to vote, right?
> 
> and there certainly aren't more republican leaning people.
> ...


 sad thing is i am starting to feel that trump payed the electoral college, votes can be bought you know which is why the electoral college needs to be abandoned and popular vote put in it's place cut out the middle man for elections, and btw if you don't believe the national debt raised by nearly quadruple go to nyc there's a nice bilbord (or is it DC?) that displays our

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.....FREAKING NATIONAL DEBT (sorry had no idea there was a word limit on post)


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## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Clydefrosch said:


> you know they don't get to vote, right?


 Actually, illegal aliens are allowed to vote in local elections.  They are not allowed to vote in federal elections but a lot do.  Illegal aliens are allowed to get driver's licenses which automatically registers them to vote in federal elections.  When they go to vote, nobody takes the time to check if they have citizenship or not.  Just because you are not allowed to do something, doesn't mean you don't do it.



Clydefrosch said:


> and there certainly aren't more republican leaning people.


  According to polls that do not reflect the entirety of the nation.  I can't prove what I said is true, but I will change my statement to there are more red states than blue.  This means more electoral votes for republicans.



Clydefrosch said:


> yeah, i know how that turned out. the one who got the most votes lost the race.


  More popular votes which leads back to the illegal alien statement.  If an election was determined by the popular votes, then California could decide the fate of the entire US in every federal election.  Doesn't seem fair for the rest of the country to let one group of people decide who represents us.



chrisrlink said:


> don't put words in one's mouth idiot HE KNOWS HE MEANT GOP you blind fool sorry i'm just getting ticked off with you always craming your ideals down someones throat like how N tried to in b/w only thing is you don't have a legendary Pokemon on your side just a ideal nothing more


  Oooo, here comes the name calling.  Excuse me, sir or ma'am, your democrat is showing.  

I didn't put words in anybody's mouth.  I quoted their post and changed one word.  I didn't cram any ideals down anybody's throat.  I didn't force anybody to read what I typed as they have every right to read what I type or not.  No need to hit me over the head with a bike lock.  Also, I don't play Poke-a-man, so I don't get the legendary reference.


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## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

Trump's disapproval rate is higher than his approval rate in ten states that voted for him in 2016.  If the economy goes belly up, and there are signs it's headed that way, he's ultra-fucked.  Hillary was the only candidate who could've possibly lost to him in 2016, and this time around it's Biden, but thankfully his poll numbers are slipping fast and things seem to be trending in favor of either Bernie or Warren.

It's pretty much mask-off racism and xenophobia from the Trump campaign this time around, because that's all he's gonna have left to cling to in the end.  Nothing else can keep his base riled up.


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## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> If the economy goes belly up, and there are signs it's headed that way, he's ultra-fucked.


 Trump is in a position now where he has a good chance of winning regardless of how bad the economy gets even with this whole China tariff situation increased consumer goods or creates a recession.  The reason is due to the democratic front runners are running on a platform of socialism and giving all our tax dollars to illegal aliens.  Not one has offered anything other than giving people "free stuff" which is not free as tax dollars will pay for this "free stuff".  Their entire argument against Trump is not his policies and whether he is doing a good job or not, but rather, that he is a racist.  Not one democrat will give a factual argument against him other than "his policy is racist" or "he is a racist".  



Xzi said:


> It's pretty much mask-off racism and xenophobia from the Trump campaign this time around, because that's all he's gonna have left to cling to in the end. Nothing else can keep his base riled up.


  This whole "Trump is racist and xenophobic" is all defamation of his character without substance.  Trump has never attacked any group of people based on race, gender, or sexual preference.  The democrats are the race baiters who always have to bring race into every conversation.  They are using the term "racist" to a point where it is losing its meaning or effect.  
Trump is not xenophobic as he is not trying to shut down immigration, only illegal immigration or people that only want to come here for a free check.

I really wish the folks who comment on these threads only to bash Trump would take a minute to stop listening to CNN, MSNBC, and other opinion "news" sources and start looking into the real facts of what Trump is doing for America and its citizens.  Try to think for yourself before criticizing someone you know little about.  

Me personally, I didn't like Trump at first either.  I only saw him as a corporate businessman who only cares for himself to make himself richer.  I really didn't like him because of the Apprentice tv show as well.  This was all just my opinion with no basis on facts.  Once I took my blinders off, I started to see how better the country was doing, how I was making more money, and how great of a president he has been for all Americans and not just white christian straight males.

Here are some of his accomplishments (source: whitehouse.gov) so far in his first 4 years with a whole lot more coming in the next 4 years:


Almost 4 million jobs created since election.
More Americans are now employed than ever recorded before in our history.
We have created more than 400,000 manufacturing jobs since my election.
Manufacturing jobs growing at the fastest rate in more than THREE DECADES.
Economic growth last quarter hit 4.2 percent.
New unemployment claims recently hit a 49-year low.
Median household income has hit highest level ever recorded.
African-American unemployment has recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Hispanic-American unemployment is at the lowest rate ever recorded.
Asian-American unemployment recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Women’s unemployment recently reached the lowest rate in 65 years.
Youth unemployment has recently hit the lowest rate in nearly half a century.
Lowest unemployment rate ever recorded for Americans without a high school diploma.
Under my Administration, veterans’ unemployment recently reached its lowest rate in nearly 20 years.
Almost 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps since the election.
The Pledge to America’s Workers has resulted in employers committing to train more than 4 million Americans. We are committed to VOCATIONAL education.
95 percent of U.S. manufacturers are optimistic about the future—the highest ever.
Retail sales surged last month, up another 6 percent over last year.
Signed the biggest package of tax cuts and reforms in history. After tax cuts, over $300 billion poured back in to the U.S. in the first quarter alone.
As a result of our tax bill, small businesses will have the lowest top marginal tax rate in more than 80 years.
Helped win U.S. bid for the 2028 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles.
Helped win U.S.-Mexico-Canada’s united bid for 2026 World Cup.
Opened ANWR and approved Keystone XL and Dakota Access Pipelines.
Record number of regulations eliminated.
Enacted regulatory relief for community banks and credit unions.
Obamacare individual mandate penalty GONE.
My Administration is providing more affordable healthcare options for Americans through association health plans and short-term duration plans.
Last month, the FDA approved more affordable generic drugs than ever before in history. And thanks to our efforts, many drug companies are freezing or reversing planned price increases.
We reformed the Medicare program to stop hospitals from overcharging low-income seniors on their drugs—saving seniors hundreds of millions of dollars this year alone.
Signed Right-To-Try legislation.
Secured $6 billion in NEW funding to fight the opioid epidemic.
We have reduced high-dose opioid prescriptions by 16 percent during my first year in office.
Signed VA Choice Act and VA Accountability Act, expanded VA telehealth services, walk-in-clinics, and same-day urgent primary and mental health care.
Increased our coal exports by 60 percent; U.S. oil production recently reached all-time high.
United States is a net natural gas exporter for the first time since 1957.
Withdrew the United States from the job-killing Paris Climate Accord.
Cancelled the illegal, anti-coal, so-called Clean Power Plan.
Secured record $700 billion in military funding; $716 billion next year.
NATO allies are spending $69 billion more on defense since 2016.
Process has begun to make the Space Force the 6th branch of the Armed Forces.
Confirmed more circuit court judges than any other new administration.
Confirmed Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch and nominated Judge Brett Kavanaugh.
Withdrew from the horrible, one-sided Iran Deal.
Moved U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem.
Protecting Americans from terrorists with the Travel Ban, upheld by Supreme Court.
Issued Executive Order to keep open Guantanamo Bay.
Concluded a historic U.S.-Mexico Trade Deal to replace NAFTA. And negotiations with Canada are underway as we speak.
Reached a breakthrough agreement with the E.U. to increase U.S. exports.
Imposed tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum to protect our national security.
Imposed tariffs on China in response to China’s forced technology transfer, intellectual property theft, and their chronically abusive trade practices.
Net exports are on track to increase by $59 billion this year.
Improved vetting and screening for refugees, and switched focus to overseas resettlement.
We have begun BUILDING THE WALL. Republicans want STRONG BORDERS and NO CRIME. Democrats want OPEN BORDERS which equals MASSIVE CRIME.
Try to tell me again how he has not done anything for America. These are things you will never see or hear from CNN or MSNBC


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## Fugelmir (Aug 17, 2019)

United States is the envy of the world under Trump.  If you can get to the US now, go immediately.

Thankfully, by name recognition alone, he has this election in the bag.

If the democrats were smart, they would have vetted a celebrity to run against him.


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## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Fugelmir said:


> United States is the envy of the world under Trump.


Good point.  

If Trump and his administration is so racist and xenophobic, why is everybody and their mama trying to cross the border more than ever before?  Why is that when they are spotted by border patrol, they turn themselves in instead of running?  Aren't they afraid of being locked in cages and tortured?  Who would want to live in a country where they are hated and forced into concentration camps?  SMH


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## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Trump is in a position now where he has a good chance of winning regardless of how bad the economy gets even with this whole China tariff situation increased consumer goods or creates a recession.


With the economy doing well, he's already underwater in a lot of states that voted for him in 2016.  If it goes into recession, his numbers are going to be worse than GWB's at the end of his second term.  The economy is literally the one and only thing he can spin to his advantage at the moment.



morvoran said:


> This whole "Trump is racist and xenophobic" is all defamation of his character without substance. Trump has never attacked any group of people based on race, gender, or sexual preference.


Give me a fucking break.  This isn't even an argument worth having.  His administration is attempting right now to make it legal to fire people simply for being gay or trans.  There have been 36 cases of violence, threats, and assaults in which the defendant invoked Trump as an inspiration.  He was the biggest driving force behind the Obama birther lie.  "Send her back," "shithole countries."  Lists of racist remarks and actions by Trump since the 1970s.  I'm sure we'll have more shooters referencing a Hispanic "invasion" over the next year, just as the El Paso shooter did.  I could go on and on, because this shit is literally never-ending.

If you're willing to ignore all this or pretend it doesn't exist, it's because you support this type of behavior.  Simple as that.



morvoran said:


> The reason is due to the democratic front runners are running on a platform of socialism and giving all our tax dollars to illegal aliens.


Democratic socialism means empowering the working class.  Or, in other words, doing everything Trump promised and never delivered on.



morvoran said:


> Try to tell me again how he has not done anything for America. These are things you will never see or hear from CNN or MSNBC


Well no shit, why would they waste air time spreading propaganda?  Not that anybody needs MSNBC or CNN to see what a clusterfuck Trump's administration has been.



morvoran said:


> Me personally, I didn't like Trump at first either. I only saw him as a corporate businessman who only cares for himself to make himself richer. I really didn't like him because of the Apprentice tv show as well. This was all just my opinion with no basis on facts. Once I took my blinders off, I started to see how better the country was doing, how I was making more money, and how great of a president he has been for all Americans and not just white christian straight males.


Average workers are losing money to tariffs and corporate subsidies/tax breaks.  The only way you're making more money under Trump is if you had a six-figure (or greater) income already, in which case, your standard of living hasn't changed regardless.  Trickle-down economics have repeatedly been proven to fail.


----------



## Viri (Aug 17, 2019)

IncredulousP said:


> If he does, I'm moving countries.


Hahaha, I'm sure you'll move countries, just like those celebrities said they'd move countries if Trump won in 2016. Or those people who said they'd move countries if Obama won. If you're for real, good luck with that, Canada isn't easy to immigrate to.



Spoiler


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Ok, @Xzi .  Those 3 "news"(aka opinion) sources you provided explain to me that you have already drank enough of the Leftist kool-aid to become fully indoctrinated and considered a "lost cause".  I'm so sorry for you and hope you are able to break free from the chains and escape the democratic plantation you live in.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Ok, @Xzi .  Those 3 "news"(aka opinion) sources you provided explain to me that you have already drank enough of the Leftist kool-aid to become fully indoctrinated and considered a "lost cause".  I'm so sorry for you and hope you are able to break free from the chains and escape the democratic plantation you live in.


Sounds like the only sources you would find valid are Fox News and Stormfront.  Good thing Trump is losing even in Fox News polls right now, to all of the top four Democratic front-runners.  To reiterate, I do think Biden would lose to Trump, but he's pretty much the only one among the remaining candidates.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Sounds like the only sources you would find valid are Fox News and Stormfront.  Good thing Trump is losing even in Fox News polls right now, to all of the top four Democratic front-runners.


Yeah, because it's so obvious that even Fox is biased towards Trump.... oh, wait did you just say that even they show Trump is losing in their polls?  OMG, I guess maybe they are a biased left wing org basing "news" on their opinions too, huh?  Sorry, their motto is "fair and balanced".  I will believe their news over opinion pieces any day regardless if it's against Trump or not.
You could say I'm worried about Trump winning in 2020 (which he will) because I don't want to drown in all the leftist tears that will flood America.


----------



## Josshy0125 (Aug 17, 2019)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> In 2016 folks were excited about it and thought great things were going to happen (hence 'Great' in _Make America *Great* Again_) but it didn't turn out quite like many had hoped, a lot feel they were betrayed and all. Now Donald Trump is going at it again with the MAGA slogan/ideology and it seems many still fall for it.
> 
> Can't say I'm surprised when billions of people feel that being part of a political side (left and right) will ultimately make any change when it's actually the government itself and politicians, not some Average Joe. He promised US citizens to build the border wall but that's not finalized and may not (others don't seem to agree and want it done). Yet, there seems to be talks of Trump buying the country Greenland but hopefully that's just it, talks.
> 
> Personally, I don't take sides but support a person who I may agree with. In general I've not found anyone in politics around the world that seems actually genuine, most just, you know, lie their way into power.


If anyone seriously thought that that orange bitch would "make america great again" and got excited about that, then they were voting out of ignorance, because for DECADES we've known this asshat's crooked behaviour, and what kind of immature prick he is. The US should take privileges to vote away from the ones who voted for him, since they vote out of ignorance and immaturity. They voted for him, without knowing even a THING about who he is as a person, and his voters are so stupid and politically ignorant. I'm all for freedom to vote, but if you're going to play a part in destroying your country, by being retarded, and voting out of ignorance and stupidity, then you shouldn't be allowed to vote, since you cannot do so responsibly like an adult.

/rant.

Also a fun side note? Greenland purchase NOT happening. Denmark is already like, "LOLno." and practically told him to fuck off. Quite right too.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Fugelmir said:


> United States is the envy of the world under Trump.  If you can get to the US now, go immediately.
> 
> Thankfully, by name recognition alone, he has this election in the bag.
> 
> If the democrats were smart, they would have vetted a celebrity to run against him.


WOW. I don't say this lightly, but your comment here better be satire, because if you mean this with sincerity... then you are possibly, quite literally, mentally challenged. Holy fuck if you're being real, you're literally retarded. This is NOT an insult and I need to make that VERY clear. It is a factual statement toward somebody who is literally coming across as mentally challenged. And since I mean this sincerely, I apologize for the use of the word, "Retard". That was uncalled for, and not okay. I should NEVER call someone who's mentally inept, such as yourself, such a rude word, so I do apologize <3


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> The US should take privileges to vote away from the ones who voted for him, since they vote out of ignorance and immaturity.



This statement (along with others you made) are quite unfair considering who the other option was.  To put it in words you might understand based on your colorful language, we had to choose between a giant douche or a shit sandwich.  Which would you choose?   
Trump offered making America great and bringing back jobs. Hillarious offered hot sauce and "Trump's a racist".


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Yeah, because it's so obvious that even Fox is biased towards Trump.... oh, wait did you just say that even they show Trump is losing in their polls?  OMG, I guess maybe they are a biased left wing org basing "news" on their opinions too, huh?  Sorry, their motto is "fair and balanced".  I will believe their news over opinion pieces any day regardless if it's against Trump or not.


So you'll believe any half-assed slogan coming from any corporation?  Sounds about right from a Republican.  As long as that's the case though, that means you believe Trump is xenophobic, because Shep Smith and several other Fox anchors have stated as much.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Shep Smith and several other Fox anchors have stated as much.


Funny you mentioned Shep Smith, he better watch out because Fox news can fire him for being gay now.  I'm surprised because how pro-Trump Fox News is that it hasn't happened already.


----------



## Josshy0125 (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> This statement (along with others you made) are quite unfair considering who the other option was.  To put it in words you might understand based on your colorful language, we had to choose between a giant douche or a shit sandwich.  Which would you choose?
> Trump offered making America great and bringing back jobs. Hillarious offered hot sauce and "Trump's a racist".


You mean Hillary? The one who has fucking in-office experience, was married to a president, and actually wants what's best for the country? Sure, she's not _perfect_, but if you think she's the worse of the two, or are even REMOTELY comparable, then you're, literally, not intelligent and are listening entirely to Trump propaganda, while shoving your fingers so far into your ear, shouting, "la la la". Maybe if you stop shoving your fingers so far into your ear holes, you'll stop damaging your brain, and would be able to understand more about Hillary, AND politics, and it would be clear to you (as it is to any normal individual, who's rationally of average intellect) she is not only FAR more fit for presidency, but is also infinitely more competent, and worthy. Stop listening to Trump projecting, "CROOKED!, when he's only reflecting of his own self, and actually LEARN about Clinton, and the experience, she has, as well as the things she's accomplished, prior to shitting on her, without knowing ANYTHING about her, but the stupid shit regurgitated by idiot Trump supporters who have an average IQ of 9 (That's me being generous with the IQ).

Also? Look how the "bring back jobs" thing has gone. His promises are stupid, baseless, and you literally understand NOTHING about Hillary, if you regurgitate this idiotic bullshit that Trump spews about her. You Trump supporters bash her, based on one thing (which still has many other variables of which we do not know), with ignorance. There's far more to the story, and you aren't even open to understanding. So I'm done arguing with you, since you're a blind Trump supporter who clearly only listens to Trump, who lies, embellishes, and throws tantrumps(tm)


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Funny you mentioned Shep Smith, he better watch out because Fox news can fire him for being gay now.  I'm surprised how pro-Trump Fox News is, that it hasn't happened already.


I wasn't even aware he was gay.  Trump has bitched about Smith a number of times though, and I am surprised he hasn't been fired already given how much pull Trump seems to have over the network.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> The one who has fucking in-office experience, was married to a president, and actually wants what's best for the country?


 what is this? Open mic night at a comedy club?  Come on, guy. I have plenty of hot sauce even with Trump in office.  I don't need more.  Lets get serious now, ok?


----------



## Josshy0125 (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> what is this? Open mic night at a comedy club?  Come on, guy. I have plenty of hot sauce even with Trump in office.  I don't need more.  Lets get serious now, ok?


You're fucking thick, mate. You are so damn ignorant of anything political. Open your mind to the possibility that you're wrong. Idiot Trump supporters... You shouldn't be allowed to vote. You can't do so responsibly. Seriously. What a twat. I'm done arguing. You're a moron. I shouldn't waste my energy on idiots like you.


Done. Not commenting on this thread anymore.


----------



## Fugelmir (Aug 17, 2019)

> WOW. I don't say this lightly, but your comment here better be satire, because if you mean this with sincerity... then you are possibly, quite literally, mentally challenged. Holy fuck if you're being real, you're literally retarded. This is NOT an insult and I need to make that VERY clear. It is a factual statement toward somebody who is literally coming across as mentally challenged. And since I mean this sincerely, I apologize for the use of the word, "Retard". That was uncalled for, and not okay. I should NEVER call someone who's mentally inept, such as yourself, such a rude word, so I do apologize <3



I'm 35.  Worked in research most of my life.  We get most of our funding from the United States even though we're in Canada.    In terms of job opportunities and funding availability for new projects, they absolutely skyrocketed during the Trump presidency.  Companies were more willing to take risks with the lower energy costs and reduced corporate taxes.  You can think I'm retarded all you like.  But my personal circumstances have drastically improved under the Trump administration and it even prompted me to obtain dual citizenship.

While people bemoan the president, the clever among you should take advantage of the opportunities this government of the day provides.  I can't name another country that has such benefit.


----------



## Josshy0125 (Aug 17, 2019)

Fugelmir said:


> I'm 35.  Worked in research most of my life.  We get most of our funding from the United States even though we're in Canada.    In terms of job opportunities and funding availability for new projects, they absolutely skyrocketed during the Trump presidency.  Companies were more willing to take risks with the lower energy costs and reduced corporate taxes.  You can think I'm retarded all you like.  But my personal circumstances have drastically improved under the Trump administration and it even prompted me to obtain dual citizenship.
> 
> While people bemoan the president, the clever among you should take advantage of the opportunities this government of the day provides.  I can't name another country that has such benefit.


I lied about butting out, because after seeing this comment I have to reply>

"Worked in Research". Nice. I worked in "Studies". 

Good job at proving any part of your point regarding your prior statement. Also, you're a moron. 

Okay. I got that frustration out. Now I'm done.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> You're fucking thick, mate. You are so damn ignorant of anything political. Open your mind to the possibility that you're wrong. Idiot Trump supporters... You shouldn't be allowed to vote. You can't do so responsibly. Seriously. What a twat. I'm done arguing. You're a moron. I shouldn't waste my energy on idiots like you.
> 
> 
> Done. Not commenting on this thread anymore.


Are you a lady?  You sound like my ex-wife (if I had one). 

But seriously, you come here and bash Trump voters and run when your opinions are challenged.  Democrats act like this all the time which is another reason why Trump will win in 2020.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

Fugelmir said:


> While people bemoan the president, the clever among you should take advantage of the opportunities this government of the day provides. I can't name another country that has such benefit.


What the fuck are you talking about?  Nearly every governmental agency has had its funding slashed under Trump.  Veterans and civilian contractors (my dad is both) have had their pay reduced and lost retention bonuses.  I don't know about Canada, but in the US, the administration has made it very clear that they don't respect career government workers.


----------



## Fugelmir (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?  Nearly every governmental agency has had its funding slashed under Trump.  Veterans and civilian contractors (my dad is both) have had their pay reduced and lost retention bonuses.  I don't know about Canada, but in the US, the administration has made it very clear that they don't respect career government workers.



Conservatives seek to drastically reduce career government workers.  It comes with the platform and is a key contributor to economic growth.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

Fugelmir said:


> Conservatives seek to drastically reduce career government workers.  It comes with the platform and is a key contributor to economic growth.


Well then don't be disingenuous by saying that Trump's administration is providing more opportunities for government workers/contractors when it's in fact providing fewer.


----------



## IncredulousP (Aug 17, 2019)

This thread is fucking hilarious. It's like watching a PhD try to teach a snail the nuances of general relativity.


----------



## Josshy0125 (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well then don't be disingenuous by saying that Trump's administration is providing more opportunities for government workers/contractors when it's in fact providing fewer.


It's all baseless lie and assumption in an attempt to sound smart. In fact I'd go so far as to say he probably even believes his own lies, and deep down knows he's just making things he says (like what you've quoted) up.

Anyway, back into the darkness. Reading this thread isn't helping me any.


----------



## Fugelmir (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well then don't be disingenuous by saying that Trump's administration is providing more opportunities for government workers/contractors when it's in fact providing fewer.



Government jobs don't boost GDP.  Private sector is where success lies.  Do you want more innovation or do you want more auditors and prosecutors?


----------



## Ericthegreat (Aug 17, 2019)

Saiyan Lusitano said:


> In 2016 folks were excited about it and thought great things were going to happen (hence 'Great' in _Make America *Great* Again_) but it didn't turn out quite like many had hoped, a lot feel they were betrayed and all. Now Donald Trump is going at it again with the MAGA slogan/ideology and it seems many still fall for it.
> 
> Can't say I'm surprised when billions of people feel that being part of a political side (left and right) will ultimately make any change when it's actually the government itself and politicians, not some Average Joe. He promised US citizens to build the border wall but that's not finalized and may not (others don't seem to agree and want it done). Yet, there seems to be talks of Trump buying the country Greenland but hopefully that's just it, talks.
> 
> Personally, I don't take sides but support a person who I may agree with. In general I've not found anyone in politics around the world that seems actually genuine, most just, you know, lie their way into power.


I think Bernie Sanders will run, and win, and we will finally have universal healthcare (did you guys know California already pretty much has it under their medi-cal program, the only ones who dont qualify are people who own small businesses that makes over 35k (not a lot I know) or so, a few other states as well), or turn out in key areas wont be enough, and Donald Trump will win again, you gotta remember even if every single person in blue states go and vote, it dont matter, they will only win those blue states, its the other red and middle states (which also tend to have lower education ratings) that matter.

It also all depends on if people know to ignore the bs they read on facebook...


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

Fugelmir said:


> Government jobs don't boost GDP.  Private sector is where success lies.  Do you want more innovation or do you want more auditors and prosecutors?


Between the tariffs/trade war and stagnant minimum wage, Trump is fucking over the private sector too.  I was only calling out the contradiction between your two statements, though.


----------



## dubbz82 (Aug 17, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> Done. Not commenting on this thread anymore.





Josshy0125 said:


> Okay. I got that frustration out. Now I'm done.





Josshy0125 said:


> Anyway, back into the darkness. Reading this thread isn't helping me any.




Do what you say you're going to.  Duck out of this thread already.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> I think Bernie Sanders will run, and win, and we will finally have universal healthcare


 Yeah, I can't wait until 80+% of my income is stolen from me through taxes to pay for this.  I get a warm feeling in my stomach imagining all the anchor babies, abortions, and sex change operations I will be responsible to pay for.  Oh, I forgot about also having to eat my cats and dogs just to remember what food tasted like after we become a socialist country.  Maybe I'll be able to sneak into Mexico, so I can work for less pesos than the legal citizens there.

Umm, no, Trump will win and everything will be great.


----------



## Josshy0125 (Aug 17, 2019)

dubbz82 said:


> Do what you say you're going to.  Duck out of this thread already.


This is my favourite reply. It's made to make someone look silly. I totally intend to butt out... then feel that I _*need*_ to reply because people are just... so... stupid. But nice try on attempting to call me out and make me look stupid. But, I'll try to butt out again. We'll see how long it lasts this time. Good argument, btw.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> . But nice of you on calling me out and making me look stupid. B


 There, I fixed this for you!!!  Trump 2020!!!


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Yeah, I can't wait until 80+% of my income is stolen from me through taxes to pay for this.


Even if you're trolling, that's a really moronic figure to pull out of your ass.

Not to mention Trump also promised universal healthcare back in 2016.  Yet another reason his approval rating is slipping in states that voted for him.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Even if you're trolling, that's a really moronic figure to pull out of your ass.
> 
> Not to mention Trump also promised universal healthcare back in 2016.  Yet another reason his approval rating is slipping in states that voted for him.


Not trolling at all.  Just throwing the same ignorant rhetoric back at those that seem to deserve it.

Bernie said his health plan could cost 30-40trillion. Throw socialism on top of that and the numbers make since.  Who is going to pay that 30-40 trillion?  Corporations?  Think about the China tariffs and how everyone says we are going to pay more for their products/services.  Talk about a recession!  Will tax dollars pay for it?  Where does tax money come from?  Our imaginations?   The US can't print that much money without making the US dollar worthless.

Stop reading off your leftist script and think about this matter with your own mind.  #walkaway campaign

Trump wanted affordable health care for all which meant the government would subsidize it in a way.  He needs to get the Democrats to stop wasting all our tax dollars on illegals and foreign aid before he can make his health care plan a reality.  I blame the left and so should you.


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 17, 2019)

Trump's rally at SNHU Arena, Manchester, New Hampshire last night broke the all-time record for attendance at the venue. It was previously held by Elton John, for a concert with 11,300 in attendance. 11,500 were admitted last night before fire marshals said no more, and there were another 8,000 - 9,000 outside who watched big screens.

New Hampshire.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Bernie said his health plan could cost 30-40trillion.


The current broken healthcare system costs us over $32 trillion, and a Koch brothers-funded study shows medicare for all would cost us roughly $303 billion* less.

*Had that figure wrong at first, mb.



morvoran said:


> Trump wanted affordable health care for all which meant the government would subsidize it in a way. He needs to get the Democrats to stop wasting all our tax dollars on illegals and foreign aid before he can make his health care plan a reality.


Trump had all three branches of government under Republican control for two years.  If he wanted to make universal healthcare a reality, he would've done so.  Instead, his priority was giving massive tax breaks to corporations and billionaires, so that's all he got done in that time frame.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Trump had all three branches of government under Republican control for two years. I


  This is true, but a lot of the Republicans were rino and never trumpers.  Heck, I was a never trumper myself back then.  

Remember his "draining the swamp" oath?  He is not able to fire elected officials. He had to wait until they could be voted out of office.  Unfortunately, now he has the Democratic ran house against him.  If the house didn't waste so much time and effort trying to impeach him and investigating the Russian collusion hoax, maybe he could accomplish more.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> This is true, but a lot of the Republicans were rino and never trumpers.  Heck, I was a never trumper myself back then.
> 
> Remember his "draining the swamp" oath?  He is not able to fire elected officials. He had to wait until they could be voted out of office.  Unfortunately, now he has the Democratic ran house against him.  If the house didn't waste so much time and effort trying to impeach him and investigating the Russian collusion hoax, maybe he could accomplish more.


Just excuses.  He's barely even mentioned healthcare once since being elected.  It's an important issue to the American people, but it's not important to him.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Just excuses.  He's barely even mentioned healthcare once since being elected.  It's an important issue to the American people, but it's not important to him.



Umm, ok, again put down your leftist provided script and do some research -
*Trump health chief: Officials actively 'working on' ObamaCare replacement plan *

This was posted on the 15th. 

Oh, sorry, I don't think Vice news or CNN would report on this.  That's most likely why you don't know how much Trump has been talking about his healthcare plan.  My bad.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Umm, ok, again put down your leftist provided script and do some research -
> *Trump health chief: Officials actively 'working on' ObamaCare replacement plan *
> 
> This was posted on the 15th.
> ...


TheHill is just as left-leaning as either Vice or CNN lol.  And Republicans have literally been saying this same shit since Obamacare passed, I'll believe it when I see it.  So far they've produced jack.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> TheHill is just as left-leaning as either Vice or CNN lol.  And Republicans have literally been saying this same shit since Obamacare passed, I'll believe it when I see it.  So far they've produced jack.


Where's your health plan?  Maybe you can give Trump and his admin some pointers on getting one out quickly since you're the expert on these things..... Oh no, nevermind.  You would just give them AOC's plan - Everybody gets unrestricted healthcare and no plan on who will, or how to, pay for it.

Don't worry. Trump will give us all the best, the greatest, and most beautiful health plan you have ever seen, ever. It will be huuuuge. You will love it.


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?  Nearly every governmental agency has had its funding slashed under Trump.  Veterans and civilian contractors (my dad is both) have had their pay reduced and lost retention bonuses.  I don't know about Canada, but in the US, the administration has made it very clear that they don't respect career government workers.


not only that. he destabilized the shit out of how hospitals operate day to day even though its barely talked about on the media. They re-framed their business models during the past 8 years to work within the bounds of the ACA and now funding for it has been thrown out of whack. Not talked about much but hospitals are one of the few sectors where layoffs ARE happening (people act like Bernie's Medicare for all would be horrible, nowhere near as bad as the uncertaintly being caused now) We are also talking about people who are the bread and butter of our healthcare system and not only the people doing billing before any smarty pants tries to bring that up.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

WD_GASTER2 said:


> people act like Bernie's Medicare for all would be horrible, nowhere near as bad as the uncertaintly being caused now


 @Xzi
Hey guys, I just decided to join your side.  Would you please DM me the scripts and list of talking points we are supposed to use against the right wing Nazi scum?  I lost the email from the DNC.  I swear I'm not lying.  Looking forward to working with you and punching those Nazi bastards.

Seriously though, come on!  Just ask any Canadian how great their healthcare system is.  We have a bunch more people than them and will need a lot more money, hospitals, and doctors willing to work for minimum wages.  We are in no way in worse shape than we would be with universal health care.  Trump's plan will be great.  Just watch.


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> @Xzi
> Hey guys, I just decided to join your side.  Would you please DM me the scripts and list of talking points we are supposed to use against the right wing Nazi scum?  I lost the email from the DNC.  I swear I'm not lying.  Looking forward to working with you and punching those Nazi bastards.



how did you jump to that conclusion from my conclusions drawn on the state of our healthcare system. JLP. You are thinking again in republican "ALPHA MODE" and that is from the devil. UH-MAZE-IN.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Don't worry. Trump will give us all the best, the greatest, and most beautiful health plan you have ever seen, ever. It will be huuuuge. You will love it.


So his healthcare plan is a meme.  Sounds about right.  Don't think that will play well for voters in 2020, though.



morvoran said:


> @XziHey guys, I just decided to join your side.


Wouldn't surprise me, you seem easily swayed and not at all politically savvy.  So I'd actually prefer if you just not vote, leave that to people who take the responsibility seriously.


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Aug 17, 2019)

@Xzi, dont take it too seriously, his account seems to be based off a parody of JLP. Who quite frankly is a meme. I wouldnt take him too seriously.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Wouldn't surprise me, you seem easily swayed and not at all politically savvy. So I'd actually prefer if you just not vote, leave that to people who take the responsibility seriously.


 Oh, come on.  We're on a gaming related site talking about politics.  How many 13 year olds who haven't even hit puberty yet are going to read this thread and be swayed to vote one way or the other.  Their parents take care of their healthcare.  They aren't going to vote for Trump or the Democratic nominee. 

It's not like I'm going to change your mind either.  I've already said you were a "lost cause" earlier.  You have drank the kool-aid and been shackled to work on the Democrat plantation until you can't anymore.

Almost forgot--- Trump IS going to win in 2020.  I can't wait to taste those sweet, sweet, oh so sweet leftist tearsafter election day.  I got my big gulp cup ready for them.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Yeah, I can't wait until 80+% of my income is stolen from me through taxes to pay for this.  I get a warm feeling in my stomach imagining all the anchor babies, abortions, and sex change operations I will be responsible to pay for.  Oh, I forgot about also having to eat my cats and dogs just to remember what food tasted like after we become a socialist country.  Maybe I'll be able to sneak into Mexico, so I can work for less pesos than the legal citizens there.
> 
> Umm, no, Trump will win and everything will be great.


This is true, though not 80%, but instead of being upset about the poor and sick, be mad that more than the funds needed to pay for it disappear every year.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

WD_GASTER2 said:


> @Xzi, dont take it too seriously, his account seems to be based off a parody of JLP. Who quite frankly is a meme. I wouldnt take him too seriously.


 Not a parody account.  More of a tribute to a great man.  I've been on this site long before ever hearing of jlp and have only recently changed my profile pic to his image.  I rarely use his quips in my replies to others.  To that matter, Trump is the Great White Hope!!!  See you in 2020 for them tears.


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Aug 17, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> This is true, though not 80%, but instead of being upset about the poor and sick, be mad that more than the funds needed to pay for it disappear every year.


the gargantuan amount that goes to the military budget comes to mind.
usually when i talk to conservative folks, they always go "oh but thats a separate topic"
well lets talk about it then. I swear that is one of the biggest money wasters we got.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

WD_GASTER2 said:


> @Xzi, dont take it too seriously, his account seems to be based off a parody of JLP. Who quite frankly is a meme. I wouldnt take him too seriously.


Makes sense, it's just too bad there's nothing discernibly funny about this brand of "humor."



morvoran said:


> Oh, come on.  We're on a gaming related site talking about politics.  How many 13 year olds who haven't even hit puberty yet are going to read this thread and be swayed to vote one way or the other.


We're not all your age here.



morvoran said:


> It's not like I'm going to change your mind either.  I've already said you were a "lost cause" earlier.  You have drank the kool-aid and been shackled to work on the Democrat plantation until you can't anymore.


Cute.  Keep licking that corporate boot and maybe one day something good will trickle down your throat.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Makes sense, it's just too bad there's nothing discernibly funny about this brand of "humor."


. Oh, I agree as well.  Nothing funny at all about Trump and his policies.  Even less funny is what would happen if crooked Hillary won.  I refuse to even contemplate that reality.  Ugh, gives me the shivers.

Also not funny is socialism and open borders.  I have faith that Trump will win and prevent the apocalypse for at least another 4 years.  Thank goodness for him.

Oh, about the corporate boot licking, I stopped doing that years ago.  I got a decent severance package as well.  Now I run my own home business and have all the time to sit on gbatemp and chat about Trump.  I wouldn't be where I am now if not for Republican policies.  I prefer this than in a soup kitchen.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Oh, I agree as well. Nothing funny at all about Trump and his policies.


His mental deficiencies would be hilarious if they weren't actively damaging the country and our interests around the globe.



morvoran said:


> Even less funny is what would happen if crooked Hillary won. I refuse to even contemplate that reality. Ugh, gives me the shivers.


Not a fan of Hillary, and she was definitely a god-awful campaigner, but I'd still prefer the status quo her administration would've provided to the Orwellian nightmare we're living in now.



morvoran said:


> Also not funny is socialism and open borders. I have faith that Trump will win and prevent the apocalypse for at least another 4 years. Thank goodness for him.


"Hurr durr socialism BAD" is no longer an effective argument in politics thanks to all the boomers referring to any positive change as socialism for the last 50 years or so.  But please, keep spouting the same tired strawman, see how many people that brings over to your side.



morvoran said:


> Oh, about the corporate boot licking, I stopped doing that years ago.


As long as you're still voting Republican, you're still licking that boot.  The coming recession is going to damage your small business far more than it will the corporations who have been pillaging the economy in preparation for it.  Enjoy.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> "Hurr durr socialism BAD" is no longer an effective argument in politics thanks to all the boomers referring to any positive change as socialism for the last 50 years or so.


 umm, is socialism ever good?  Are you talking about the boomers in Venezuela? What positive changes are you talking about that isn't paying for illegal alien healthcare or subsidizing the murder of unborn children?  Please explain further about these positive changes that are not Republican policy based.



Xzi said:


> The coming recession is going to damage your small business far more than it will the corporations who have been pillaging the economy in preparation for it. Enjoy.


 I know I dread the day Trump leaves office in 2024.  I wish he had a clone to keep running in his stead.  Hopefully, I'll have a big business and be able to pay off the rino Republicans or Democratic nominees.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Aug 17, 2019)

WD_GASTER2 said:


> the gargantuan amount that goes to the military budget comes to mind.
> usually when i talk to conservative folks, they always go "oh but thats a separate topic"
> well lets talk about it then. I swear that is one of the biggest money wasters we got.


I dunno, I'm sure there's a lot of unnecessary spending, but you really can't discount the safety of our country or our soldiers.... Just because there hasn't been a war it doesn't mean we still aren't due for one.


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Aug 17, 2019)

Ericthegreat said:


> I dunno, I'm sure there's a lot of unnecessary spending, but you really can't discount the safety of our country or our soldiers.... Just because there hasn't been a war it doesn't mean we still aren't due for one.



how do i put this, we spent more than the next 7 countries combined. most of whom are our allies. 
You can still pay our troops who i happen to support very much, without spending stupid amounts of money on projects that are unaccounted for:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-first-ever-audit-official-says-idUSKCN1NK2MC


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> umm, is socialism ever good?  Are you talking about the boomers in Venezuela? What positive changes are you talking about that isn't paying for illegal alien healthcare or subsidizing the murder of unborn children?  Please explain further about these positive changes that are not Republican policy based.


Brainwashed Republicans like you refer to absolutely everything as socialism, even the stuff that very clearly isn't.  Universal healthcare is not socialism, it's the global standard in every other first-world capitalist country.



morvoran said:


> I know I dread the day Trump leaves office in 2024.  I wish he had a clone to keep running in his stead.  Hopefully, I'll have a big business and be able to pay off the rino Republicans or Democratic nominees.


Don't worry, after Trump loses in 2020, I'm sure the Republican candidate for 2024 will be Jersey Shore's Snooki or someone equally retarded.  There's no recovering from the moral and intellectual rot Trump has brought upon the party.


----------



## Ericthegreat (Aug 17, 2019)

WD_GASTER2 said:


> how do i put this, we spent more than the next 7 countries combined. most of whom are our allies.
> You can still pay our troops who i happen to support very much, without spending stupid amounts of money on projects that are unaccounted for:
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-first-ever-audit-official-says-idUSKCN1NK2MC


Well because...

TEAM AMERICA FUCK YEA!

As for projects, we do want our soldiers to have all the best stuff, again I do think a large part of the military budget (and all budgets even down to small city's) are stolen, and the funds are just marked "missing"....


----------



## WD_GASTER2 (Aug 17, 2019)

how about we take a break from wars instead?
seriously, its been 18 f-ing years since afghanistan, and that shit isnt done yet.

how about we work on making the world a safer place by putting heavy diplomatic pressure to get a new INF treaty, instead of spending millions in a doomsday weapons race?


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Brainwashed Republicans like you refer to absolutely everything as socialism, even the stuff that very clearly isn't.


 Oh, you mean just like democrats and the term "Racist".  Hmm, still don't get it.



Xzi said:


> Universal healthcare is not socialism, it's the standard in every other first-world capitalist country around the world.


Ok, universal healthcare is not socialism huh? derp  
Next, you're going to tell me that public schools aren't socialism either and that I've been yelling at those freeloaders standing on my street corner every morning during late fall, winter and spring that wait for a big yellow bus to come get them for no reason all these years?  BS   I tell them to "go get a job, Hippies, and stop living off my tax dollars!!!"



Xzi said:


> Don't worry, after Trump loses in 2020, I'm sure the Republican candidate for 2024 will be Jersey Shore's Snooki or someone equally retarded.


  Idiocracy is a good movie.  I'll have to watch that again as that would be a good way to imagine your vision of a perfect government.  Though, I do remember Dwayne The Rock Johnson saying he was planning on running for president.  I think he has a better chance than Snooki.

By the way, if Trump doesn't win in 2020, do you really think we will still have a country in 2024?  I'm not sure about that.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Universal healthcare is not socialism, it's the global standard in every other first-world capitalist country.



"Universal healthcare" where everyone is obliged to participate is very much a socialist policy.  I think it was immoral for Obama administration to force people to pay into an ante that bets on people getting sick and needing treatment.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Oh, you mean just like democrats and the term "Racist".  Hmm, still don't get it.


Not every Republican is a racist, but every Republican has to appeal to racists to varying degrees in order to win elections.  It's called the Southern Strategy, look it up.



morvoran said:


> Ok, universal healthcare is not socialism huh? derp


Are you also going to call Trump a socialist for promising universal healthcare?  This type of hypocrisy is the reason people have started turning a deaf ear to this bullshit.



morvoran said:


> Idiocracy is a good movie.  I'll have to watch that again as that would be a good way to imagine your vision of a perfect government.


Talk about irony, we're living in an Idiocracy right now.  Trump supporters are proof positive of that.



morvoran said:


> By the way, if Trump doesn't win in 2020, do you really think we will still have a country in 2024?  I'm not sure about that.


Yes, we'd still have a country in four years if we support the health and well-being of the working class rather than spending all our tax dollars on corporate subsidies.  Your hyperbole is meaningless.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

tabzer said:


> "Universal healthcare" where everyone is obliged to participate is very much a socialist policy.


By that definition, taxation itself is a socialist policy, and thus we're already a socialist nation.  If that's the case, we should at least be getting what we pay for rather than having all that money redistributed to the wealthiest individuals and corporations.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 17, 2019)

I never said America didn't have socialist policies.  You claimed that "Universal Healthcare is not socialism".


----------



## Clydefrosch (Aug 17, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Yeah, I can't wait until 80+% of my income is stolen from me through taxes to pay for this.  I get a warm feeling in my stomach imagining all the anchor babies, abortions, and sex change operations I will be responsible to pay for.  Oh, I forgot about also having to eat my cats and dogs just to remember what food tasted like after we become a socialist country.  Maybe I'll be able to sneak into Mexico, so I can work for less pesos than the legal citizens there.
> 
> Umm, no, Trump will win and everything will be great.


yeah, like there's any income to take from your unemployed 13 year old ass.



morvoran said:


> @Xzi
> Hey guys, I just decided to join your side.  Would you please DM me the scripts and list of talking points we are supposed to use against the right wing Nazi scum?  I lost the email from the DNC.  I swear I'm not lying.  Looking forward to working with you and punching those Nazi bastards.



This one is especially hilarious considering you've literally been copy and pasting the literal presidents own propaganda list of non-accomplishments and talking points since page one.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

tabzer said:


> I never said America didn't have socialist policies.  You claimed that "Universal Healthcare is not socialism".


I don't believe it is.  There are several proposals for reaching universal healthcare coverage, some of them still involve paying insurance premiums and deductibles just as we do now.  Medicare for all would just change the way we pay for healthcare insurance, in the form of taxes.  Either way, it's not a redistribution of wealth, and it's not a seizing of the means of production, so it wouldn't fall under the definition of socialism.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 17, 2019)

As long as "universal" is in the name it's going to be socialist in nature.  It prioritizes the "whole" over the individual.  And that "whole", which is in charge of redistribution, tends to be a smaller centralized group of people who tend to corrupt themselves with having too much power.  As long as your model is opt-in, I can't be against it.


----------



## supersonicwaffle (Aug 17, 2019)

Taleweaver said:


> Keeping jobs in the US is a notable thing. It's a long term goal, though. The import taxes help on short term, but on the long term, those US citizens find themselves out of a job because they can't export to other countries who've followed the import taxes example (yeah...that's what these "treaty" things aren't to be taken lightly).



Would be interested to hear how you arrive at this conclusion. Extremely high import taxes have been employed by the EU for ages, commonly referred to as "Anti Dumping Duty". One industry where things are pretty extreme is the bicycle industry where the duty for imports from china is 48.5% and as you should know as a belgian the EU bicycle industry is doing well, EU bike exports make up around the same percentage as chinese exports, as a passionate cyclist however I would bet money that in the mid to high end market chinese bikes are pretty irrelevant, especially in the EU becacuse of import taxes, the only thing I can recall where chinese components have become relevant here are deep section carbon wheels, there's more relevancy with regards to open mould frames in the US though.



Taleweaver said:


> Like it or not, but outlawing abortion pretty much IS killing the US. I'm not kidding on this in the slightest. Just compare the crime rates from a state with the time they legalized abortion. It's not as fun to hear, but unwanted children have a much higher chance of becoming a criminal.



I take it you're referring to the Donahue-Levitt hypothesis which is quite controversial.
The study was originally published in 2001 and recently in 2019 there was an updated paper published that claimed their hypothesis held up.
The original study was for example criticized for the following:

crime rates dropped most significantly in older population which is completely counter to the hypothesis
Donahue and Levitt used arrest data to arrive at their conclusions while arrests for murder often happen a significant time period after the actual murder. One of their critics claimed that adjusting for this reversed their findings (meaning that legalized abortion lead to higher murder rates among the affected generation)
Donahue and Levitt used arrest totals and not per capita arrests, a critic claimed that using per capita numbers the effect disappeared entirely
WHO concludes laws against abortion do not reduce incidence of abortion meaning the hypothesis that unwanted children are responsible for crime can't be true
I assume you read an article about the updated paper recently?


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

tabzer said:


> As long as "universal" is in the name it's going to be socialist in nature.  It prioritizes the "whole" over the individual.  And that "whole", which is in charge of redistribution, tends to be a smaller centralized group of people who tend to corrupt themselves with having too much power.  As long as your model is opt-in, I can't be against it.


As I was saying before, I think it depends on how broad a brush you want to paint with.  If you consider taxation itself to be socialism, then yeah, medicare for all would be socialist in that same manner.  I don't think taxation is a socialist concept by nature, though, and I think universal healthcare is just the bare minimum of what a nation should be providing its citizens in terms of living assistance.  Medicare would be the most fiscally efficient means of providing that for the US.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 17, 2019)

Collecting and enforcing income tax, fore example, was definitely a socialist decision made by the US in the 1900's.  It is a trend, that America is becoming more socialist over time.  It is a phase of its decomposition.

"Universal healthcare for all" is a broad stroke.  I'd like everyone to be happy and healthy, but that is a non-enforceable fantasy.  People must be willing to pursue the outcome of their own good health, and legislation should not be imposed to block them; but it is, and it causes the lack of access which makes healthcare "unaffordable".

A mandate forcing people to pay into a universal healthcare is a only a temporary band-aid for deeper issues.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

tabzer said:


> Collecting and enforcing income tax, fore example, was definitely a socialist decision made by the US in the 1900's. It is a trend, that America is becoming more socialist over time. It is a phase of its decomposition.


Taxation has been a part of every capitalist nation in history though.  And the issue revolutionaries took with Britain wasn't even the taxation itself, but rather taxation without representation.



tabzer said:


> "Universal healthcare for all" is a broad stroke. I'd like everyone to be happy and healthy, but that is a non-enforceable fantasy.


How is it a fantasy?  Every other first-world nation already manages it just fine, and as it stands now, many Americans are forced to take advantage of other countries' healthcare systems in order to receive affordable care.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Taxation has been a part of every capitalist nation in history though.



That doesn't change anything about what I said.



Xzi said:


> And the issue revolutionaries took with Britain wasn't even the taxation itself, but rather taxation without representation.



I didn't address anything about America's conflict with Britain, as that happened over 100 years prior to the institution of income-tax.



Xzi said:


> How is it a fantasy?



You can't force people to be happy, just as you can't force people to be charitable.



Xzi said:


> Every other first-world nation already manages it just fine



Something something crack-pipe.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

tabzer said:


> That doesn't change anything about what I said.
> 
> I didn't address anything about America's conflict with Britain, as that happened over 100 years prior to the institution of income-tax.


Taxation is taxation, no need to split hairs.  It's hard to deny that taxation is just as ingrained in the capitalist system as it is in any socialist system, if not more so.  More relevant is where the taxes go after they're collected.



tabzer said:


> You can't force people to be happy, just as you can't force people to be charitable.
> 
> Something something crack-pipe.


I wasn't referring to the happiness portion of your comment, that should've been obvious.  Healthcare is more about staying alive than staying happy, though tangentially, people are obviously going to be happier when they don't have to consent to crippling debt for a single hospital stay or necessary surgery.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 17, 2019)

Idk of a "pure capitalist system" that hasn't had socialist qualities.


----------



## Fugelmir (Aug 17, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Taxation has been a part of every capitalist nation in history though.  And the issue revolutionaries took with Britain wasn't even the taxation itself, but rather taxation without representation.
> 
> 
> How is it a fantasy?  Every other first-world nation already manages it just fine, and as it stands now, many Americans are forced to take advantage of other countries' healthcare systems in order to receive affordable care.




I dunno what you're talking about.  You're definitely wrong if you're talking about Canada.  Our health care system is in shambles and the opposite is the case.   Family doctors can't take new patients, emergency rooms are a disaster. Need an actual transplant?  I hope not because most big cities don't have the facilities and you'll need to be air lifted to a major city at your expense.

Open border policies combined with an aging workforce  tapped our resources dry.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 17, 2019)

tabzer said:


> Idk of a "pure capitalist system" that hasn't had socialist qualities.


That's because a 'pure capitalist' system is a Ponzi scheme.  It quickly collapses in on itself or becomes a dictatorship.  If we're defining any sense of camaraderie or community as socialism, then literally all of civilization has been socialist.



Fugelmir said:


> I dunno what you're talking about.  You're definitely wrong if you're talking about Canada.  Our health care system is in shambles and the opposite is the case.   Family doctors can't take new patients, emergency rooms are a disaster. Need an actual transplant?  I hope not because most big cities don't have the facilities and you'll need to be air lifted to a major city at your expense.
> 
> Open border policies combined with an aging workforce  tapped our resources dry.


You say that, yet a lot of people living in the Northern US travel to Canada to purchase live-saving medications at a fraction of what they cost here.  Diabetics in other parts of the US are dropping like flies from rationing insulin, and our national debt is $22 trillion.  Canada's national debt is a mere $700 billion.  Canada's GDP is also a fraction of what ours is, but that just means there are even fewer excuses not to take care of our own citizens.  The money is already being spent, just in the wrong places.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

*Zogby: ‘Poor performances’ of Democrats boost Trump’s approval to 51%, up with blacks and Hispanics*

*Looks like Trump is doing pretty good with ever growing base of supporters.  *


*


Spoiler



OH, Trump is going to win in 2020!!!!


*


----------



## sarkwalvein (Aug 17, 2019)

I wonder why in the temps most politics discussions are carried out between fanatics and idiots on both/all sides.
And with this I don't want to offend the topic creator, he is just trying to start a conversation in a civilized way.

One would expect to get some interesting discussion afterwards, with some real opinions portrayed as opinions and not something else, some data/statistics based on facts portrayed as that and not something else, some civil conversation.

But all you get is arrogance and fanaticism, people that show their ignorance (as lack of humbleness) putting themselves in a weird make believe position of superiority, and screaming their "truth" like children in kindergarten fighting each other about what is the best ice cream flavor.

I don't mean to say there are no people discussing topics in a civil way either, but the most vocal people are the fanatics and they make browsing through the thread 90% a waste of time unless you are into childish tantrums.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 17, 2019)

*@sarkwalvein  That would be a good topic for another thread, let's keep this thread about Trump and how great he is.  Thanks.*


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> If we're defining any sense of camaraderie or community as socialism



Lol.  Taxation is friendship.  Nice motto.

If I HAVE to choose between the Antifa guy and the Maga guy, I'd choose the Maga guy.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> Lol.  Taxation is friendship.  Nice motto.
> 
> If I HAVE to choose between the Antifa guy and the Maga guy, I'd choose the Maga guy.


I wasn't referring to taxation there or I would've stated as much.  And I think we all could've guessed you prefer fascism to anti-fascism without you spelling it out for us.  Not that anyone should be forced into a binary choice between the two, but history does tend to repeat itself.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> I wasn't referring to taxation there or I would've stated as much.  And I think we all could've guessed you prefer fascism to anti-fascism without you spelling it out for us.  Not that anyone should be forced into a binary choice between the two, but history does tend to repeat itself.


You know that antifa is using the name sarcastically, right?   The MAGA guy is all about freedom of speech for all and unity of all people regardless of political affiliation, race, or ethnicity (as long as you're not an enemy of those things).   

By the way, how was the rally in Portland today?  How many nazis did you beat with a bike lock?


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> The MAGA guy is all about freedom of speech for all and unity of all people regardless of political affiliation, race, or ethnicity (as long as you're not an enemy of those things).


Just like fascism, MAGA is all about criminalizing dissent.  You're not fooling anybody.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Just like fascism, MAGA is all about criminalizing dissent.  You're not fooling anybody.



Any examples of that being true or was that a talking point on your leftist list of propaganda?  I believe it is the leftist's in Google and facebook censoring conservative accounts.  CNN and MSNBC refusing to show news reflecting how the left is terrorizing the right.  It is antifa that beats anybody who does not go along with their rhetoric 100%.

If you bring up some guy running people over in Charlottesville,  please at least acknowledge that he was being attacked first trying to get away from the rabid mob hitting his car.

Trump is all about uniting people.  He has never brought up race in any of his tweets or policies.  He is for the better good of ALL AMERICANS, not just the POC's.  The demonrats are all about separating the country by color codes.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Trump is all about uniting people.  He has never brought up race in any of his tweets or policies.


Now that's the first truly funny thing you've said.  The rest of your post would be absolutely pathetic if I wasn't acutely aware it's meant to be parody.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Now that's the first truly funny thing you've said.  The rest of your post would be absolutely pathetic if I wasn't acutely aware it's meant to be parody.


Yet you cannot prove to me that he has done anything truly racist.  Not hidden racism like "infested" or "calling all Mexicans rapist and drug dealers".  That's all leftist propaganda.  I mean any policies that are against any race (not nationality).  

I can list several Democratic policies that are racist if you'd like.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Yet you cannot prove to me that he has done anything truly racist. Not hidden racism like "infested" or "calling all Mexicans rapist and drug dealers". That's all leftist propaganda.


Well done, definitely getting more audible laughs from me now.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> I wasn't referring to taxation there or I would've stated as much.  And I think we all could've guessed you prefer fascism to anti-fascism without you spelling it out for us.  Not that anyone should be forced into a binary choice between the two, but history does tend to repeat itself.


Fascism exists on both extremes.  You are in denial about that while you subvert real points being made with a condescending attitude.

For example:



Xzi said:


> If we're defining any sense of camaraderie or community as socialism



That never happened.  You are loony.

You come off as insincere and as a risk to individual liberty.  Nobody like you should have power over people.  Unfortunately, there are people like you who do.  And they are fascists.

You come off as an Antifa recruiter while Maga guy seems harmless.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Well done, definitely getting more audible laughs from me now.


Ok, keep gulping down that leftist kool-aid.  I know that you don't have any valid arguments.  That's why you're resorting to childish antics and can't give at least one example.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> Fascism exists on both extremes.


Authoritarianism perhaps, but fascism is exclusive to the right-wing given that it's a form of nationalism taken to the extreme.  Communism is on the far left of the political spectrum, with anarchism being even further to the left of that.



tabzer said:


> You are in denial about that while you subvert real points being made with a condescending attitude.


Or perhaps your "real points" are just more of the same right-wing strawmen arguments that are easily dismissed?  Neither taxation nor universal healthcare systems require any discernible form of socialism to implement.  If you're willing to concede that point, I have no issue continuing our discussion on either topic.



morvoran said:


> Ok, keep gulping down that leftist kool-aid.  I know that you don't have any valid arguments.  That's why you're resorting to childish antics and can't give at least one example.


Aww, and you had such a streak going.  This isn't funny at all.  Go back to the "verifiable facts and documented video evidence are all leftist propaganda" shtick.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> fascism is exclusive to the right-wing given that it's a form of nationalism taken to the extreme.


 and just like with how you say Trump is being a racist, you say things without giving valid examples when the left is both racist and fascist.  Wow, and you dare call me a parody.

Racist policies of Democrats - slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, affirmative action, forced diversity in the workplace
Fascism of Democrats - gun laws, antifa, straight pride parades being restricted from getting a permit, Facebook and Google censoring conservative voices


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> and just like with how you say Trump is being a racist, you say things without giving valid examples when the left is both racist and fascist.
> 
> Racist policies of Democrats - slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, affirmative action


Oh, the "ignorant to the fact that the parties swapped positions" guy, that one's a classic.  The party of Nixon and Trump is also the party of Lincoln, right?  



morvoran said:


> Fascism of Democrats - gun laws, antifa, straight pride parades being restricted from getting a permit, Facebook and Google censoring conservative voices


If not for the part about anti-fascists being fascist, you'd have all your subtle humor grouped up nicely here.  For anyone who might not get it: Hitler loosened gun laws in order to aide the nationalists and brownshirts.  "Straight pride" is connected to the paradox of tolerance, and certainly nobody wants another Charlottesville on their hands.  And of course, Facebook/Google are private companies, who are permitted to enforce any TOU/EULA they wish, a concept that Republicans used to be fully in favor of, but now only support when it's convenient.

I know comedy that has to be explained loses a lot of its edge, but this is some fine work.  Glad to see you've still got it.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> ignorant to the fact that the parties swapped positions


 when did this "switch" happen exactly? After the Civil Rights movement when Lyndon B Johnson said that he'd have all the n-words voting for Democrats for the next 200 years?



Xzi said:


> The party of Nixon and Trump is also the party of Lincoln, right?


Nixon was a rino(or incogdemo-crat). Lincoln and Trump were and is the Greatest presidents we've had so far, respectively.


Xzi said:


> Straight pride" is connected to the paradox of tolerance, and certainly nobody wants another Charlottesville on their hands.


  More leftist propaganda as usual.  I forget that Democrats are psychic and can see the future(even though it's really their imagination based on their feelings).  No proof that anything bad would happen unless Democratic fascists showed up and tried to stop them with violence.  I bet you don't know that the right is a peaceful group that wants fairness in society.



Xzi said:


> Facebook/Google are private companies, who are permitted to enforce any TOU/EULA


. I wonder if you would say this still if they were ran by conservatives and were censoring Democratic voices.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 18, 2019)

Trump will get his wall... in Trump Heights in Israel/Syria.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Nixon was a rino(or incogdemo-crat). Lincoln and Trump were and is the Greatest presidents we've had so far, respectively.


Oh god please stop.  This one has me in tears.  

I'm glad I seem to now understand your brand of humor a little better, I'm sure our views on politics are closely aligned.  I know our education system is fairly shitty, but nobody is dumb enough to genuinely believe this stuff.  Of course it had to be parody.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Authoritarianism perhaps, but fascism is exclusive to the right-wing given that it's a form of nationalism taken to the extreme.



The outcome of either extreme is the same despair caused by a centralized group of people having power over everyone else.  The path taken to get there is just different in how it's presented.  It is besides the point of why I said what I said.  This is a derailment.  What I don't understand is how "the resistance" wants to use the corrupt government that's already in place, but just re-purposed by whatever corrupt leaders they have running their groups.  



Xzi said:


> Or perhaps your "real points" are just more of the same right-wing strawmen arguments that are easily dismissed? Neither taxation nor universal healthcare systems require any discernible form of socialism to implement.



Taxation and universal healthcare systems ARE discernible forms of socialism being implemented.  Without addressing anything I said, specifically, you calling my point of view "right-wing strawman arguments" is a strawman.  Anyone who isn't as crazy as you is the right winger.  That's what I get.  But what I am saying is that your hostility shows and makes the bad guy start looking good.  Are you sure that you are not controlled opposition?


----------



## chaoskagami (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> when did this "switch" happen exactly? After the Civil Rights movement when Lyndon B Johnson said that he'd have all the n-words voting for Democrats for the next 200 years?



You need to read up on the history of our two-party system. It wasn't always the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Did you even go to primary school?



> I bet you don't know that the right is a peaceful group that wants fairness in society.



Not when most of the "terrorist" attacks this year (much higher than usual, by the way) were by your ilk regurgitating the orange man's rhetoric as justification for murdering innocents.

Try again when you're actually not a group driven by fear and hatred of those you don't understand or don't want to understand.



tabzer said:


> You come off as an Antifa recruiter



Please explain the definition of "Antifa". What exactly do you think it means? Similarly, please explain what "fascism" is, for the record.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Oh god please stop.  This one has me in tears.
> 
> I'm glad I seem to now understand your brand of humor a little better, I'm sure our views on politics are closely aligned.  I know our education system is fairly shitty, but nobody is dumb enough to genuinely believe this stuff.  Of course it had to be parody.


. Oh, another good point I didn't think of. Thanks.  Our education system is shitty as all it does is fill our, and our children's, minds with leftist propaganda.  I see that it has done wonders for you, (sorry, I meant did a good job on you), though.  Like I've said before, hopefully, you can snap out of your leftist mind control and will finally be able to think for yourself to finally see the truth of how you are being used by your Democrat overlords.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Trump will get his wall... in Trump Heights in Israel/Syria.


 Israel already has a big beautiful wall,  and it works great for them like ours will work for us.  You'll see.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> The outcome of either extreme is the same despair caused by a centralized group of people having power over everyone else.  The path taken to get there is just different in how it's presented.  It is besides the point of why I said what I said.  This is a derailment.  What I don't understand is how "the resistance" wants to use the corrupt government that's already in place, but just re-purposed by whatever corrupt leaders they have running their groups.


Granted, plenty of politicians are liars and in it just for the power.  Politicians who genuinely believe in and fight for the right ideals are limited to perhaps three in a lifetime at most.



tabzer said:


> Taxation and universal healthcare systems ARE discernible forms of socialism being implemented.


It simply doesn't get any more capitalist than taxation for the purpose of corporate profit and private healthcare insurance as an entire industry.  So we're obviously not going to agree on this point.  Your definition of socialism is entirely too broad and strays far from the dictionary's definition.



tabzer said:


> Without addressing anything I said, specifically, you calling my point of view "right-wing strawman arguments" is a strawman.


Socialism as a boogeyman to be feared is a strawman.  The same nonsense fear-mongering has been employed since FDR was in office.



tabzer said:


> Anyone who isn't as crazy as you is the right winger.  That's what I get.


Anyone left of center is "crazy," right?  Seems impossible for you to ever carry a civil conversation for more than a few replies without resorting to ad hominems.  Unfortunate.



tabzer said:


> But what I am saying is that your hostility shows and makes the bad guy start looking good.


If you've misunderstood any of my previous statements as hostile in tone, I apologize, that was not my intention.  No need to devolve the conversation further.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

chaoskagami said:


> Please explain the definition of "Antifa".



Militant hipsters recruited to be ironic.



chaoskagami said:


> Similarly, please explain what "fascism" is, for the record.



See my prior statement a couple posts back.



Xzi said:


> Granted, plenty of politicians are liars and in it just for the power. Politicians who genuinely believe in and fight for the right ideals are limited to perhaps three in a lifetime at most.



Great fake fact you pulled out there.



Xzi said:


> It simply doesn't get any more capitalist than taxation for the purpose of corporate profit and private healthcare insurance as an entire industry



In that statement I see both capitalism and socialism.  You are right if you are suggesting that the two seem to be in opposition.  You are wrong to suggest that socialism doesn't exist in it.



Xzi said:


> Your definition of socialism is entirely too broad and strays far from the dictionary's definition.



No it's not.  You are just trying to hide from the "s" word.  Ideologies may be considered to be %100 to someone, but the reality is always mixed.



Xzi said:


> Socialism as a boogeyman to be feared is a strawman.



I never ever said socialism was a boogeyman.  That is your invention.  My entrance in this thread was by pointing out that you said something wasn't socialist and it was indeed socialist.  I never gave a moral evaluation on it.  That's your dishonesty.



Xzi said:


> Seems impossible for you to ever carry a civil conversation for more than a few replies without resorting to ad hominems.



Right, because you are the one telling me that I am devolving the conversation further by giving my input.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> Great fake fact you pulled out there.


I was agreeing with you there and nowhere did I claim that to be a factual statement.  There's even a "perhaps" included which should've made that clear.  You really just can't stop yourself from being confrontational.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

chaoskagami said:


> And there you have it, folks. This is what trump folks view opposition to fascism as.



Anybody who sees antifa as a menace is a "Trump folk"?  That's irrational.  They appear more fascist than those who they oppose; the contradiction is what makes it ironic.  I am free to say that and I shouldn't have to be threatened of being a labelled as anyone but myself.


----------



## supersonicwaffle (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> If not for the part about anti-fascists being fascist, you'd have all your subtle humor grouped up nicely here. For anyone who might not get it: Hitler loosened gun laws in order to aide the nationalists and brownshirts. "Straight pride" is connected to the paradox of tolerance, and certainly nobody wants another Charlottesville on their hands.



I hate that pic it’s straight up cherry picked left extremist propaganda because it leaves out the second part of Poppers paradox that says we should be intolerant towards everyone who isn’t willing to talk but employs violence.
You’re so funny that you complain about extremism on YouTube but overtly flirt with left extremism on here.


----------



## chaoskagami (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> you pull so many fake facts from your leftist propaganda leaflet, it's hard to keep track of all of them.



Read this the same way you'd read a "yo mamma" joke for maximal effect.



tabzer said:


> Anybody who sees antifa as a menace is a "Trump folk"?  That's irrational.  They appear more fascist than those who they oppose; the contradiction is what makes it ironic.  I am free to say that and I shouldn't have to be threatened of being a labelled as anyone but myself.



Why are people opposed to fascism a menace? Fascism is objectively bad and a threat to the democratic process. How can you honestly in any capacity believe lack of freedom is _good_?

Also, you've spent the entire thread backing Trump and his ideology. You've long since lost the right to not being labelled, tabzer.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

supersonicwaffle said:


> You’re so funny that you complain about extremism on YouTube but overtly flirt with left extremism on here.


Yeah bro, you better watch yourself, because I'm such an extreme leftist that I might insist on giving you healthcare coverage and a tuition-free college education.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

chaoskagami said:


> Read this the same way you'd read a "yo mamma" joke for maximal effect.


ok, here it goes.  Yo momma pulls so many fake facts from yo momma. It's so hard to keep track of yo momma.

Hmmm, nope, doesn't work for me.  

MAGA round 2 in 2020!! Wait for it, folks, it's coming!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> Yeah bro, you better watch yourself, because I'm such an extreme leftist that I might insist on giving you healthcare coverage and a tuition-free college education.


 hey buddy, you forgot to add this to your reply---
And take over 60% of your paycheck to give you all that "free stuff"!!!


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> hey buddy, you forgot to add this to your reply---
> And take over 60% of your paycheck to give you all that "free stuff"!!!


If you're a billionaire I guess.  But if that's the case, you didn't earn that money anyway, and your standard of living isn't going to be changed if we take most of it to provide the rest of the country with their own decent standard of living.


----------



## supersonicwaffle (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Yeah bro, you better watch yourself, because I'm such an extreme leftist that I might insist on giving you healthcare coverage and a tuition-free college education.


Thank you very much but I already have both of those. 
You should go read the person you’re quoting though, Karl Popper did some excellent work. I’m referring to your posting or liking extremist propaganda here.
We both don’t like right wing extremism or even radicalism but there’s speech we don’t like that we have to put up with because we need to grant the enemies from within our liberal society the same liberties that we have, so as long as they’re not breaking the law we will have to accept their right to speak, if they do break the law call the cops not another extremist group.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> If you're a billionaire I guess.  But if that's the case, you didn't earn that money anyway, and your standard of living isn't going to be changed if we take most of it to provide the rest of the country with their own decent standard of living.


If I was a billionaire, I would not be on this site learning how to borrow games for free (maybe I am a Democratic socialist after all).

Either you're not a Democrat, just don't care about their policies, or the 2020 nominees are not left enough for you, but you definitely dont keep with them and their stances.  Bernie said he will have to raise taxes on the middle class (and the poor I'm sure) to pay for all this stuff he wants to give for "free".  There will be no billionaires in America if his policies were put in place as they would hide their money in off shore accounts, and he would be forced to raise our taxes.  Get with the program and get deprogrammed of the lies you are being fed by your DNC overlords.




supersonicwaffle said:


> if they do break the law call the cops not another extremist group.


. Yeah, but to the far left, cops are another evil extremist group against them, also (unless someone hurts their feelings then they yell for help from them).  I don't think leftists can accept civility over treachery.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

supersonicwaffle said:


> Thank you very much but I already have both of those.


Yeah I know, your flag indicates that.  Maybe one day we'll get to enjoy the same benefits in America, fingers crossed.



morvoran said:


> If I was a billionaire, I would not be on this site learning how to borrow games for free (maybe I am a Democratic socialist after all).


Perhaps you are, but piracy transcends political ideology.



morvoran said:


> Either you're not a Democrat, just don't care about their policies, or the 2020 nominees are not left enough for you, but you definitely dont keep with them and their stances.  Bernie said he will have to raise taxes on the middle class (and the poor I'm sure) to pay for all this stuff he wants to give for "free".


Sanders is my preferred candidate, and I'm definitely left of liberals/neoliberals.  Yes, he's being realistic by saying that taxes will have to go up on the middle class slightly, but what you pay in taxes would still be far less than you pay for insurance premiums/deductibles and college tuition currently.  Not to mention it would save money for small businesses who would no longer have to provide coverage for their employees.



morvoran said:


> There will be no billionaires in America if his policies were put in place as they would hide their money in off shore accounts, and he would be forced to raise our taxes.


Umm, billionaires already hide their money in offshore tax havens, and they'll continue to do that regardless of the tax rate.  Of course taxes on the wealthiest people/corporations will have to be raised after Trump slashed them to unsustainable lows.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

chaoskagami said:


> Why are people opposed to fascism a menace? Fascism is objectively bad and a threat to the democratic process. How can you honestly in any capacity believe lack of freedom is _good_?



People can oppose fascism without joining violent radical groups.  I've never suggested fascism is good.  On the contrary, I've suggested that it is bad, and that antifa participants are capable of behaving that way.  You are putting too many words in my mouth to take your what you say as an argument.



chaoskagami said:


> Also, you've spent the entire thread backing Trump and his ideology. You've long since lost the right to not being labelled, tabzer.



No I haven't.  You've seemed to combine a strawman with an ad hominem.  Is that creative or self-defeating?

"Hey, this guy doesn't like vegan lifestyle.  He must be pro-cancer."


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> what you pay in taxes would still be far less than you pay for insurance premiums/deductibles and college tuition currently. Not to mention it would save money for small businesses who would no longer have to provide coverage for their employees.


 what if I don't go to the doctor, go to college, or have enough employees that I have to provide coverage?  I still have to subsidize everyone else's "free stuff"?  How is that not socialism or fair? His policies definitely won't save me any money.



Xzi said:


> Umm, billionaires already hide their money in offshore tax havens, and they'll continue to do that regardless of the tax rate.


. OMG, if that's already true, then how is he going to get them to pay for all this "free stuff"? Is he going to sweet talk them to stop hiding their money?  What if he becomes a billionaire, will he only go after the trillionaires then? (Remember when he was after millionaires, too, until he became one?)

Somebody please pinch Xzi because this person is dreaming!!!!!


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> what if I don't go to the doctor, go to college, or have enough employees that I have to provide coverage?  I still have to subsidize everyone else's "free stuff"?  How is that not socialism or fair?


God forbid your taxes contribute to the health and betterment of the working class rather than subsidizing billionaires and corporations like they do now, right?  



morvoran said:


> OMG, if that's already true, then how is he going to get them to pay for all this "free stuff"? Is he going to sweet talk them to stop hiding their money?  What if he becomes a billionaire, will he only go after the trillionaires then? (Remember when he was after millionaires, too, until he became one?)


Sanders is fine with paying more in taxes himself, I don't know what tabloid rag you read that stated otherwise.  And it doesn't matter how much money billionaires try to hide in offshore accounts if you tax their profits.


----------



## chaoskagami (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> No I haven't.  You've seemed to combine a strawman with an ad hominem.  Is that creative or self-defeating?
> 
> "Hey, this guy doesn't like vegan lifestyle.  He must be pro-cancer."



Arguments are reserved for when the two entities involved share basic common sense and are both rational human beings.

There are quite a few points in common between Trump supporters and cancer, by the way. They are dangerous, lead to problems for the whole population and multiply rapidly if left unchecked.

Anyways, I'm out. This thread - as per usual - is a complete and utter waste of time. I'm not sure why I even bother.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> God forbid your taxes contribute to the health and betterment of the working class rather than subsidizing billionaires and corporations like they do now, right?


 God forbid I have to pay for you or others to change your bodies into whatever you "feel like" this week or pay to murder children.  God forbid if I did go to the hospital, that I would have to wait weeks or months for a necessary surgery and hope I live long enough to actually have it performed.  I don't subsidize corporations, I use their goods/services so you can have a paycheck.  In Bernie's future, it will be so China/Mexico workers can get a paycheck.



Xzi said:


> And it doesn't matter how much money billionaires try to hide in offshore accounts if you tax their profits.



Ummmmmmmmmmmmm,. What money do you think they hide in these offshore accounts?  Their net losses?

Just like Bernie and the other socialist running for president, you're spewing wishes in one hand while shitting in the other.  Except the shit has piled so high it's not just filling your hands, but covering your whole body now. It has done infested your minds with so much shit, you think it's normal to be shat on.


Thank God Trump is going to win.  He will keep the shit off of all of us.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> God forbid I have to pay for you or others to change your bodies into whatever you "feel like" this week or pay to murder children.  God forbid if I did go to the hospital, that I would have to wait weeks or months for a necessary surgery and hope I live long enough to actually have it performed.  I don't subsidize corporations, I use their goods/services so you can have a paycheck.  In Bernie's future, it will be so China/Mexico workers can get a paycheck.


Congratulations, this is some top-tier retardation.  I lost brain cells just reading it.



morvoran said:


> Ummmmmmmmmmmmm,. What money do you think they hide in these offshore accounts?  Their net losses?


Look up capital gains tax.  I can't be bothered to explain basic economic concepts to somebody who apparently dropped out of middle school.  You're in need of that tuition-free college education more than most.


----------



## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Congratulations, this is some top-tier retardation. I lost brain cells just reading it.


  No, I rinsed some of that crap out of your head that replaced your brain cells long ago with that true statement.



Xzi said:


> Look up capital gains tax. I can't be bothered to explain basic economic concepts to somebody who apparently dropped out of middle school. You're in need of that tuition-free college education more than most.


. Wow, maybe I rinsed a little too much crap out if your head with my other statement.  Here, I'll put some crap back in "Elizabeth Warren has valid points", "Bernie does own a comb and uses it daily".  There, feel better?


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

chaoskagami said:


> Arguments are reserved for when the two entities involved share basic common sense and are both rational human beings.
> 
> There are quite a few points in common between Trump supporters and cancer, by the way. They are dangerous, lead to problems for the whole population and multiply rapidly if left unchecked.
> 
> Anyways, I'm out. This thread - as per usual - is a complete and utter waste of time. I'm not sure why I even bother.



It's a shame that you can't be rational and be accountable.  Likening Trump supporters to cancer is giving too much credit to your fake democracy.


----------



## supersonicwaffle (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Yeah, but to the far left, cops are another evil extremist group against them, also (unless someone hurts their feelings then they yell for help from them). I don't think leftists can accept civility over treachery.



Unfortunately I have to agree here. The left's outright refusal to distance themselves and condemn extremism from their side is very disheartening. They're rightfully demanding right wing politicians to distance themselves from right wing extremism, so you have to assume they know full well what they're doing.
Ultimately you have people like @Xzi who is pushing extremist propaganda like misrepresenting philosophers to fit their views, justifying extremist violence as self defense or arguing that ANTIFA can't be fascist because they call themselves "Antifascist Action". Saying a white supremascist group can't be advocating white supremacy because they call themselves "anti white supremacists" would literally be the same argument. Their behaviour is nonsensical, asinine, vile and disgusting.


----------



## IncredulousP (Aug 18, 2019)

Freezerbomb said:


> None of you are right. None are wrong. You're all just living in your own ignorant fantasy world.


I disagree, there are facts and logic being posted, countered by opinionated, baseless, regurgitated nonsense.

@morvoran What do you think of Eisenhower's presidency?


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

supersonicwaffle said:


> Unfortunately I have to agree here. The left's outright refusal to distance themselves and condemn extremism from their side is very disheartening. They're rightfully demanding right wing politicians to distance themselves from right wing extremism, so you have to assume they know full well what they're doing.
> Ultimately you have people like @Xzi who is pushing extremist propaganda like misrepresenting philosophers to fit their views, justifying extremist violence as self defense or arguing that ANTIFA can't be fascist because they call themselves "Antifascist Action". Saying a white supremascist group can't be advocating white supremacy because they call themselves "anti white supremacists" would literally be the same argument. Their behaviour is nonsensical, asinine, vile and disgusting.


My god you're right, just have a look at this: violent antifa extremist thugs assault police officers, circa 2019.

I don't know why I couldn't see it before, but this whole antifa thing is out of control.  It's gone completely bananas.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> My god you're right, just have a look at this: violent antifa extremist thugs assault police officers, circa 2019.
> 
> I don't know why I couldn't see it before, but this whole antifa thing is out of control.  It's gone completely bananas.




That link you posted by Andy Ngo has some interesting posts:

A large antifa mob chase & attack a man & a young girl who got separated from the others. No police. 

 More anarchy and chaos in Portland by antifa.

 Antifa attacks people on a bus. They try to pull them out and hit them with a hammer.

 Middle-age man was maced and beaten by an antifa mob. He was knocked unconscious to the ground. His partner or spouse was trying to protect him as mob still surrounded them. No police.

 No police in sight as antifa mob descends on men. A fight involving weapons breaks out.

 looks like @Xzi commenting

It seems like how this is going to play out, politically, is it's going to be used for Trump's benefit.  Every president that starts a fight with a terrorist group gets re-elected to continue the fight.  So perhaps Antifa will be Trump's ISIS.

@chaoskagami probably believes that this is the best way to "fight fascism".


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> That link you posted by Andy Ngo has some interesting posts:
> 
> https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1162828409367515139 A large antifa mob chase & attack a man & a young girl who got separated from the others. No police. ]
> 
> ...


I unequivocally condemn those committing actual acts of violence, especially when unprovoked.  Hopefully you're willing to say the same about all the murders linked to right-wing extremism which occurred in 2018 as well as this year.  Putting a damper on Trump's re-election chances, he inspires just as much home-grown terrorism as he "fights," and even the likes of Fox News have begun referring to the president as a white supremacist.

Andy Ngo is a conservative journalist, so the unicorn coverage contrasting his typical slant was amusing to see.


----------



## IncredulousP (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> That link you posted by Andy Ngo has some interesting posts:
> 
> A large antifa mob chase & attack a man & a young girl who got separated from the others. No police.
> 
> ...


This post is really scary. Not just because of the display of mob mentality (which is terrible regardless of beliefs or politics) but because there doesn't seem to be a consensus of actions, motives, or persons for each of the videos. There are many dangerous claims, which may be true, but are unproven. Additionally, some people are calling the poster a notorious propagandist. Regardless, I don't approve of mobs harassing individuals, especially with violence.

Scary stuff, these times are. Mobs, suicides, terroristic murders, all within the states.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> I unequivocally condemn those committing actual acts of violence, especially when unprovoked.  Hopefully you're willing to say the same about all the murders linked to right-wing extremism which occurred in 2018 as well as this year.


I didn't point at/laugh/mock any claims that right-wing extremists can be dangerous/violent.  You are a dick all by yourself with this one.



Xzi said:


> he inspires just as much (home-grown) terrorism as he "fights,"



And when the past 4-5 presidents were fighting terrorists, they were NOT doing that?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



IncredulousP said:


> This post is really scary. Not just because of the display of mob mentality (which is terrible regardless of beliefs or politics) but because there doesn't seem to be a consensus of actions, motives, or persons for each of the videos. There are many dangerous claims, which may be true, but are unproven. Additionally, some people are calling the poster a notorious propagandist. Regardless, I don't approve of mobs harassing individuals, especially with violence.
> 
> Scary stuff, these times are. Mobs, suicides, terroristic murders, all within the states.




Antifa organizes mobs [ie: protests] with the hopes that violent people show up.  It does appear that they want a shit-show and a reason to be violent.  It is the manner in which Antifa incites violence.  The dude posting on twitter seems to be wanting to pin it on Portland's police.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> I didn't point at/laugh/mock any claims that right-wing extremists can be dangerous/violent.  You are all by yourself with this one.


In which case it shouldn't be a stretch for you to condemn those acts of violence and murder just as I did, rather than dancing around the subject.



tabzer said:


> And when the past 4-5 presidents were fighting terrorists, they were NOT doing that?


Oh, Dick Cheney and GWB definitely knew from the start that the "war on terror" was likely to be endless.  Attacking civilian centers and justifying it after the fact by suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists was a sure-fire way to make radical ideologies more appealing to the survivors.  Subsequently, the stresses of never-ending war and divisions along those same lines of xenophobia/anti-xenophobia were also guaranteed to radicalize a lot of the American population in the long run.  The fact that they were aware of all this and still willing to commit to it just to retain four more years in office is what makes it particularly insidious.  I still can't believe we didn't charge most members of that administration with war crimes.



tabzer said:


> Antifa organizes mobs with the hopes that violent people show up.


When the event is organized by extremist groups like the 'proud boys,' violence is guaranteed whether antifa hope for it or not.  And of course, violence begets more violence.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> In which case it shouldn't be a stretch for you to condemn those acts of violence and murder just as I did, rather than dancing around the subject.



You alone mocked the idea that someone would have a reason to fear antifa, and posted a link showing that you are willing to ignore all the violence just to make fun of it.  You don't get to make this about me.  Instead of reacting from a place of entitlement, you should be apologizing.



Xzi said:


> Oh, Dick Cheney and GWB definitely knew from the start that the "war on terror" was likely to be endless. Attacking civilian centers and justifying it after the fact by suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists was a sure-fire way to make radical ideologies more appealing to the survivors. Subsequently, the stresses of never-ending war and divisions along those same lines of xenophobia/anti-xenophobia were also guaranteed to radicalize a lot of the American population in the long run. The fact that they were aware of all this and still willing to commit to it just to retain four more years in office is what makes it particularly insidious. I still can't believe we didn't charge most of that administration with war crimes.



Interesting that you can see how it worked for 1 out of the past 5 presidents...



Xzi said:


> When the event is organized by extremist groups like the 'proud boys,' violence is guaranteed whether antifa hope for it or not. And of course, violence begets more violence.



Antifa planned to protest their event, and "punching nazis" is the MO.  So yes, of course the stage has been set for violence.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> You alone mocked the idea that someone would have a reason to fear antifa, and posted a link showing that you are willing to ignore all the violence just to make fun of it. You don't get to make this about me. Instead of reacting from a place of entitlement, you should be apologizing.


So you refuse to condemn murder as long as it's committed on behalf of your "team."  Good to know what type of person I'm dealing with here.  Being amused by a video of a dancing unicorn doesn't change my stance on condemnation of unprovoked violence, and I'm not going to repeat myself a third time.



tabzer said:


> Interesting that you can see how it worked for 1 out of the past 5 presidents...


There have only been three different presidents since the war on terror was initiated.  I'm not a fan of war for the sake of imperialism either, but that's largely a separate subject which dates back much further than the last five presidents.



tabzer said:


> Antifa planned to protest their event, and "punching nazis" is the MO.  So yes, of course the stage has been set for violence.


Indeed, neither proud boys events nor antifa protests are known for an atmosphere of peacefulness and tranquility.  Individuals looking for that should probably try an Enya concert instead.


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> So you refuse to condemn murder



I refuse to give you lip service.  Condemning murder at your request  is such an empty gesture.  Consider the context of doing it at the request of someone who "condemns things" only the sake of plausible deniability.  You are asking that I humble myself before you because why?  You are too ashamed to apologize?



Xzi said:


> There have only been three different presidents since the war on terror was initiated. I'm not a fan of war for the sake of imperialism either, but that's largely a separate subject which dates back much further than the last five presidents.



"initiated".  Yet presidencies were carried on keeping the good fight going.  I mean that as in ensuring that they do not end.



Xzi said:


> Indeed, neither proud boys events nor antifa protests are known for an atmosphere of peacefulness and tranquility. Individuals looking for that should probably try an Enya concert instead.



 there you go again

You alone mocked the idea that someone would have a reason to fear antifa, and posted a link showing that you are willing to ignore all the violence just to make fun of it.


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## Joe88 (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> Antifa organizes mobs [ie: protests] with the hopes that violent people show up.  It does appear that they want a shit-show and a reason to be violent.  It is the manner in which Antifa incites violence.  The dude posting on twitter seems to be wanting to pin it on Portland's police.


I don't think he is doing that but rather trying to blame the mayor which has been criticized for his mishandling of these protests, it seems he is telling police to stand down where its looking like that antifa has the run of the place. They did do a lot better job this time around since all the media attention has been on them.
There's tons of video where antifa members are just causing violence for no reason, mass property destruction, rioting , arson, etc, even when there is no one to "attack", heres just a random video of an antifa member smashing windshields of city cars with a hammer and set them on fire for no reason.




Theres tons of videos like this like the UC berkely one, just destroying anything and everything. There was one on trumps inauguration day where antifa destroyed and set fire to a limo, which belonged to a muslim immigrant https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...-fire-during-the-inauguration-protests-belong
If these right wing groups are left alone, then they ralley/march or whatever and go home, they never destroy anything, they don't just commit acts of violence for no reason, they were having a barbeque yesterday, but its always the same story as soon as antifa gets involved. I'm not saying they dont have a right to protest but when the protests almost 100% of the time turn violent and antifa are the instigators most of the time something needs to be done. Just because you have a different politcal opinion then someone else doesnt give you the right to commits acts of violence against them claiming they are nazis or whatever all while the media defends and eggs them on.


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## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> I refuse to give you lip service. Condemning murder at your request is such an empty gesture.


Nobody here has seen you condemn right-wing extremism in any form, and that being the case, some are even going to assume that you endorse it.  Therefore condemning it would be far from an empty gesture, it might even lend you a bit more credibility.



tabzer said:


> "initiated".  Yet presidencies were carried on keeping the good fight going.  I mean that as in ensuring that they do not end.


Don't get me wrong, starting a war solely for the sake of re-election and/or imperialism is ridiculous, but America's involvement in certain wars has been justified.  With WW2, for example, we probably should've gotten involved even sooner.



tabzer said:


> You alone mocked the idea that someone would have a reason to fear antifa, and posted a link showing that you are willing to ignore all the violence just to make fun of it.


I was mocking the fact that Ngo was portraying the unicorn video as violence toward police alongside other videos that did actually show violence.  Does that clear things up for you?


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## tabzer (Aug 18, 2019)

Xzi said:


> Nobody here has seen you condemn right-wing extremism in any form, and that being the case, some are even going to assume that you endorse it. Therefore condemning it would be far from an empty gesture, it might even lend you a bit more credibility.



Keep bargaining.  I don't have the right to offer for your left.



Xzi said:


> I was mocking the fact that Ngo was portraying the unicorn video as violence toward police along with other videos that did actually show violence.



He certainly was not.  And you certainly were not.  

Are you trying to appeal to blind people now?



Xzi said:


> My god you're right, just have a look at this: violent antifa extremist thugs assault police officers, circa 2019.
> 
> I don't know why I couldn't see it before, but this whole antifa thing is out of control.  It's gone completely bananas.


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## Xzi (Aug 18, 2019)

tabzer said:


> Keep bargaining.  I don't have the right to offer for your left.


I guess we'll leave it at that, then.  It's meaningless to attempt civil discussion with someone who condones murder for the sake of political expedience.


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## Josshy0125 (Aug 18, 2019)

I literally fucking can't. Like. It started off hilarious, and honestly I thought some were joking. Now I realize that they're being totally serious, and I pray to whatever God may happen to be out there that these fucking morons don't have offspring. They'll ruin this planet with their low IQ and destructive beliefs. Jesus fuck dude. I am mind-blown.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 18, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> I literally fucking can't. Like. It started off hilarious, and honestly I thought some were joking. Now I realize that they're being totally serious, and I pray to whatever God may happen to be out there that these fucking morons don't have offspring. They'll ruin this planet with their low IQ and destructive beliefs. Jesus fuck dude. I am mind-blown.


Hey, if that's how the human race ends up, then we deserve to reap no better than we sow. No matter which political philosophy is followed, deviation from the optimal path will be felt by those walking it.


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## Josshy0125 (Aug 18, 2019)

IncredulousP said:


> Hey, if that's how the human race ends up, then we deserve to reap no better than we sow. No matter which political philosophy is followed, deviation from the optimal path will be felt by those walking it.


Thats some scary shit mate!


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## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

IncredulousP said:


> @morvoran What do you think of Eisenhower's presidency?


 I'm not sure.  I need @Xzi to inform me what propaganda his antifa handlers fed him after he drank a gallon of their "jesus juice".

Seriously, Eisenhower was the president of desegregation of the military, of our capital, and of schools.  He may not have vocalized his approval of it, but he still made it happen during his term.



Xzi said:


> When the event is organized by extremist groups like the 'proud boys,' violence is guaranteed whether antifa hope for it or not. And of course, violence begets more violence.


 This statement makes me think you're the type of person who would torture cats and go cry to mommy when they scratched you.  The proud boys are nothing more than a group of conservative guys that hung out together wearing their MAGA hats and praise Trump.  Their only crime was defending themselves from antifa attacks.  Everywhere the proud boys went, the antifa was sure to follow and cause havoc.  Antifa was the aggressor in every situation.  Yet, proud boys are the terrorist gang?  Sheesh!



Josshy0125 said:


> I pray to whatever God may happen to be out there that these fucking morons don't have offspring. They'll ruin this planet with their low IQ and destructive beliefs.


  I know, right?  These leftist morons are killing American and everything it stands for.  Don't worry, though,  the upcoming generation of kids are learning how foolish they are and will eradicate their way of thinking eventually after the radical left all either grow up or pass on.



Josshy0125 said:


> I literally fucking can't.


 I thought you literally fucking couldn't back on page 2 or 3?  Why are you back now?  Just to say you are leaving again? Bye Felisha!!!


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## Josshy0125 (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> I'm not sure.  I need @Xzi to inform me what propaganda his antifa handlers fed him after he drank a gallon of their "jesus juice".
> 
> Seriously, Eisenhower was the president of desegregation of the military, of our capital, and of schools.  He may not have vocalized his approval of it, but he still made it happen during his term.
> 
> ...


I still fucking cant. It's an ongoing issue.


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## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> I still fucking cant. It's an ongoing issue.


Just admit it. You're loving every moment of this thread.  Like a car wreck, you can't look away.  
You think this is bad now, just wait for Trump's second term.  The leftists will really be angry then.  Their mommas won't be able to save them from all their drama.  I have my leftist tears cup ready.


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## Josshy0125 (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Just admit it. You're loving every moment of this thread.  Like a car wreck, you can't look away.
> *You think this is bad now, just wait for Trump's second term*.  The leftists will really be angry then.  Their mommas won't be able to save them from all their drama.  I have my leftist tears cup ready.



*Troll confirmed. 

*


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## morvoran (Aug 18, 2019)

Josshy0125 said:


> *Troll confirmed.
> *


Josshy0125's dictionary
*Troll:*
noun: someone on the internet, usually in forums, who always tells the honest truth
Example: morvoran said Trump is going to win a second term which is so true. What a troll.

Well, based on that definition, I guess I am.


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## IncredulousP (Aug 18, 2019)

morvoran said:


> Seriously, Eisenhower was the president of desegregation of the military, of our capital, and of schools. He may not have vocalized his approval of it, but he still made it happen during his term.


Ah okay. How about his economic policies?


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## WeedZ (Aug 18, 2019)

This thread has completely devolved into feces throwing.


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