# Isn't it hypocritical to force people to take jobs while unemployed?



## Nothereed (Apr 5, 2022)

For frame of context. Most of the strongest people against socialism or communism. (as a reminder i am an anarcho communist. Stalin/Lennism can go to hell) State that communism selects your job, and you have no control.... (even though that's usually lennism/authoritarian communism)
Meanwhile in our society in the United States those same people are essentially doing the exact thing they criticize.
where minimum wage is definitely not enough for rent, electric and utilizes, car insurance, food, and internet, oh and also health insurance and supposed to have savings.
 and many companies still pay a below living wage/near  or at minimum wage. The government is now forcing people who are on unemployment for any reason, to take the next immediate job or loose unemployment benefits, which means... loosing the lights.
So either you can't keep, or barely can keep the lights on with unemployment (since it pays higher than the garbage minimum wage), and the moment you find a job, and it pays 8.25. (Unemployment is roughly about 9-10 dollars an hour) Your essentially fucked, You can't wait for a higher paying job, your forced into the lower paying one. How is this not the EXACT complaint people against Socialism/Communism make. The government is straight up forcing you into a job you do not want.


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## subcon959 (Apr 5, 2022)

I'm not sure I see it the same way you do, but the obvious take on this is that the minimum wage should be higher, and the government shouldn't be incentivising people who have the ability to work to stay on benefits.


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## Hanafuda (Apr 5, 2022)

The government isn't forcing you to take a job. It's forcing you to decide between working for income, or not working and getting no income. Unemployment benefits are for a limited duration and conditional upon active job seeking. It isn't reasonable to expect them to last until you land your dream job/pay.


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## Hayato213 (Apr 5, 2022)

Unemployment benefit duration is limited to like 6 months or so I believe, so after that time the benefit end, the longer you don't work the harder for you to find a job.


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## mightymuffy (Apr 5, 2022)

Yeah I don't see you getting much support from us employed people on this one! 
But Christ on a bike the average weekly payment in the US is $378?! Why?! ~$100 here in UK, $200 for those with dependancies etc (more for the bludgers that know what they're doing I suppose..) It's no wonder 'anarcho communists' and others of a similar frame of mind to you don't want to work.. even if it is for only 6 months, something's kinda wrong there. 
Here in the UK the minimum wage is, as far as I know, supported: this definitely needs fixing in the US if what many on here are saying. Just remember that is taxpayers money you're spending there - so the usual comments of 'get soddin working! (but by all means improve your situation with study etc while you're at it)' are to be expected


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## Nothereed (Apr 6, 2022)

Hanafuda said:


> The government isn't forcing you to take a job. It's forcing you to decide between working for income, or not working and getting no income


Oh my apologize. I forgot that death via starvation and a lack of housing is an option. My bad.


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## Nothereed (Apr 6, 2022)

Hanafuda said:


> Unemployment benefits are for a limited duration and conditional upon active job seeking. It isn't reasonable to expect them to last until you land your dream job/pay.


This is more of a question of principal. I'm not arguing for unemployment benefits to last indefinitely, as that would be stupid.
However... let's say your in a area that rent is at least 800. (This just rent. And this is incredibly cheap)
Odds are to make it with at least a car insurance, internet, and food. That you'd need to make roughly 10-12 an hour. Minimum.
Now let's consider this situation again. You end up on unemployment, and the next available job is a job that pays 8.25. Far below what is needed for basic shit.
This is essentially the goverment picking your job. You don't get to choose.
How is this not THE exact thing "communism" would do.
Sure the goverment isn't putting a bullet to your head. But the alternative is starvation and subsequent death. Either you loose unemployment because the job you were told to pick up is paying too little for most necessities, and you choose not to, resulting in effectively loosing everything and  starvation. Or you go with that job... with the same results... except no starvation, but definitely can't pay rent or that car insurance.
You don't really get to choose here. Either you loose unemployment and die. Or you get the small chance you don't.
As for people who would say"but that's the same for if it runs out"
Not really. The goverment didn't choose your job. The grace window they provided ran out. That's not really forcing you to take a job.
If you choose not to get a job while the window was present that's most likely on you.

Because previously, if you were on unemployment you had a 6 month window to find a suitable job. Which 6 months is reasonable (when the job market isn't shit. Which it always is but I'll remain quiet here)
 Now you *must* take any job, regardless if it can pays for basic necessities within reason or not. You can't wait a additional week for something more reasonable.
Unless your telling me humans can live off of nothing but air.


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## KingVamp (Apr 6, 2022)

I feel like automation and renewable energy is going to force ubi, eventually.


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## Hayato213 (Apr 6, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> This is more of a question of principal. I'm not arguing for unemployment benefits to last indefinitely, as that would be stupid.
> However... let's say your in a area that rent is at least 800. (This just rent. And this is incredibly cheap)
> Odds are to make it with at least a car insurance, internet, and food. That you'd need to make roughly 10-12 an hour. Minimum.
> Now let's consider this situation again. You end up on unemployment, and the next available job is a job that pays 8.25. Far below what is needed for basic shit.
> ...



Believe it or not @Hanafuda is speaking the true, believe it or not you only get 26 weeks of unemployment insurance, and you need to show them at least one that you are are active seeking a job, you would have to attend workshop meeting and turn in a sheet showing you are actively looking for jobs.

Well learn better skills if you want to make money, while that $8.25 is way below the minimum wage, you can learn skills in high demand jobs to make a living like AWS.  I don't like it but your last resort you could turn to scalping, if you need to make some money, selling high demand electronics if you can get them can make you some money.


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## Taleweaver (Apr 6, 2022)

So... How does that "anarcho communist" model look like? "the government picks the jobs but nobody does them" perhaps? 

More serious... What's your angle here? It may be a cliche, but under capitalism you've got the individual freedom of choice. Yes, the freedom to starve to death if you decide to not work, or to 'only slowly' starve when your job isn't in demand, but it's not like it's a cosmetic difference worth ignoring for sake of the argument. 

You're shooting hypocrites because capitalism essentially forces people into labor. I won't deny that fact, but... what's hypocritical about it? The criticism on communism has always been the active (as in dominant or even 100% steering) role of the economy rather than the referee or on the backseat. If you really thought capitalism was about freedom for employees, then I'm sorry, but you're incredibly naive. It's the freedom of entrepreneurship, not of the (non directors) role in said enterprises. 



I can make a statement on socialism being the best for this situation (power to the employees instead of the direction or the state) , but even there : you only count as long as you've got a job.


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## Xzi (Apr 6, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> I'm not sure I see it the same way you do, but the obvious take on this is that the minimum wage should be higher, and the government shouldn't be incentivising people who have the ability to work to stay on benefits.


I agree with this, but from a slightly different perspective: the private sector shouldn't be incentivizing people to stay on benefits by paying less than what unemployment does.  No company that treats its workers right and pays $17+ an hour is facing a "worker shortage" right now, it's exclusive to abusive work environments that don't even cover the cost of commuting with their wages.


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## Nothereed (Apr 6, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> So... How does that "anarcho communist" model look like? "the government picks the jobs but nobody does them" perhaps?
> 
> More serious... What's your angle here? It may be a cliche, but under capitalism you've got the individual freedom of choice. Yes, the freedom to starve to death if you decide to not work, or to 'only slowly' starve when your job isn't in demand, but it's not like it's a cosmetic difference worth ignoring for sake of the argument.
> 
> ...


In a anarcho communist society there is not much of a state, and if there is odds are it's strictly policy based/ not a representative system but a direct policy system via majority vote. So in other words, anarcho wouldn't strong arm as your saying here.
What I find hypocritical is that capitalists, are complaining about what "communism" would do, while... essentially doing the same things. Starvation? well that's already a major issue.
 I put in heavy air quotes here.  Because of system of relationships. Captalism at the end of the day will result in a hierarchy, which means even if you attempt a anarcho capitalist society, it's doomed to fail, as a company/buisness for the sake of more profits will eventually become the new state. Communism doesn't have a inherit hierarchy.  HOWEVER, it can inherit one from the previous system, resulting in well... still a class, and just a new coat of paint (USSR didn't redistribute, and as such, most of the people that were previously in power, mostly remained in power, which creates a class)


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## KingVamp (Apr 6, 2022)

I'm not so anti-cap as some people, not that I would mind it getting replace with something better, but it is clear that it needs guard rails. If things tend to go towards a hierarchy anyway, I rather it be a social democracy one vs... whatever we have now.


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## chocoboss (Apr 6, 2022)

You will have to work to get monney. I got my first job while I was 13 ( during hollydays ). It will prevent abuse. it didn't seems a bad idea


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## wartutor (May 3, 2022)

....edit not a good idea to put that, better to just say "self entitled" much. Jesus...


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> How is this not the EXACT complaint people against Socialism/Communism make. The government is straight up forcing you into a job you do not want.


You must understand, the leading Bolsheviks who took over Russia were not Russians. They hated Russians. They hated Christians. Driven by ethnic hatred they tortured and slaughtered millions of Russians without a shred of human remorse. It cannot be overstated. Bolshevism committed the greatest human slaughter of all time. The fact that most of the world is ignorant and uncaring about this enormous crime is proof that the global media is in the hands of the perpetrators.

-Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn


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## duwen (May 13, 2022)

If the government provided what OP is suggesting, unemployment would skyrocket as there'd be a reduced incentive for ANYONE to work.
The vast majority of us in employment are not in our ideal jobs, earning the wage we deserve. I've only had two pay rises in the last decade and a half!
Yes, existing is sometimes a struggle, but at least I'm not so entitled to think that I can spend as long as I want waiting for the perfect job to come to me while living off of hard working tax payers money and complaining that it's not fair that I get everything paid for me but, boo-hoo, only for a few months??!


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## chrisrlink (May 13, 2022)

no the hypocracy is the ssi system (disabled people who have yet to work) they throw you under a speeding bus as soon as you make more than $60 (yes only 60) a month (SSDI those who paid into the SSI progrram) gets a $800 a month cap if the governmet wats peope to work then they should ring that higher wage cap over, a deeply flawed and illogical system


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## lokomelo (May 13, 2022)

this old quote from a western says all:


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

lokomelo said:


> this old quote from a western says all:



Yes, the system is designed to keep you down and to exploit you. They will do that until you and your kind have perished or you will have to stand up to fight for what is right. unfortunatly.


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## erikas (May 13, 2022)

The fact that you need to eat is not created by capitalism, the government or anyone else. You have the option to leave civilization, move deep into a forest, build a hut and start hunting and gathering. If you think needing to get a job to pay for food and being forced into a job by the government is the same thing, then instead of doing your toilet philosophy, how about you actually talk to someone from the former soviet union.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

erikas said:


> The fact that you need to eat is not created by capitalism, the government or anyone else. You have the option to leave civilization, move deep into a forest, build a hut and start hunting and gathering. If you think needing to get a job to pay for food and being forced into a job by the government is the same thing, then instead of doing your toilet philosophy, how about you actually talk to someone from the former soviet union.


Have you ancenstors who died under the bolshevik regime? According to Solzhenitsyn about 66.000.000 people where destroyed by the bolsheviks out of racial hatred. (I think that includes things like the holodomor)







I think the idea of the thread is more about the increasing exploitation of the bolsheviks of today.


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## djpannda (May 13, 2022)

came for the Unemployment question.. .. left for the weird Communist/ Eastern Europe Turn.


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## Marc_LFD (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> i am an anarcho communist


Let's just leave politics aside for a moment, in a society you need to earn money to live, eat, and pay your bills, right? So you need a job whether that's a normal job (retail, warehouse, banking, cleaning, managerial) or not (selling on Amazon, making a living thru YouTube).

I read chicks, well, cute chicks are making $30k a month on OnlyFans.


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

djpannda said:


> came for the Unemployment question.. .. left for the weird Communist/ Eastern Europe Turn.



Exactly this thread is getting weird.


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## erikas (May 13, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Have you ancenstors who died under the bolshevik regime? According to Solzhenitsyn about 66.000.000 people where destroyed by the bolsheviks out of racial hatred.
> 
> I think the idea of the thread is more about the increasing exploitation of the bolsheviks of today.


I possibly do, since i have so few close relatives. And "racial" is an American concept. Within Russia during the revolution, after the nobility were killed off by the bolsheviks, they turned to what they called the kulaks (this was not an actual class before the bolsheviks needed an enemy to continue the revolution. When the soviet union started expanding into other countries, they started erasing cultures, teaching russian as the main language and so on. But that was done more to enforce homogeneity and control, not out of racial hatred for other nations so far as I'm aware. A populations of russians live in my country to this day. No one considers them racist.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

erikas said:


> I possibly do, since i have so few close relatives.


I'm sorry for what happened to your people.


erikas said:


> And "racial" is an American concept.


I'm pretty sure that is wrong. The 'american' racial conception is a bolshevik invention.


erikas said:


> Within Russia during the revolution, after the nobility were killed off by the bolsheviks, they turned to what they called the kulaks (this was not an actual class before the bolsheviks needed an enemy to continue the revolution. When the soviet union started expanding into other countries, they started erasing cultures, teaching russian as the main language and so on.


Terrible. Unfortunatly a little known history by many today.


erikas said:


> But that was done more to enforce homogeneity and control, not out of racial hatred for other nations so far as I'm aware. A populations of russians live in my country to this day. No one considers them racist.


Yes, Solzhenitsyn himself talked about ethnic hatred. The bolsheviks were to a large extend not russians themselves. 85% of the government and the people in important positions of the institutions were ethnically clearly distinct from russians/christians. With only a few russians among the remaining 15%.

What OP is getting at in my view, and why this is relevant to this topic is that the bolshevik regime is now a global power, that has learned not to use hard power, like causing planned famine and mass starvation, mass shootings etc switching to softpower, since now they know what a terribel look that is. They use softpower instead of hardpower, and that is what OP describes. The differances are the mechanisms and how they are percieved, while being in essence the same. Same people, motives, goals different mechanisms. Hope that clarifies things for OP.

For furhter reading I recommend this:


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## Nothereed (May 13, 2022)

duwen said:


> If the government provided what OP is suggesting, unemployment would skyrocket as there'd be a reduced incentive for ANYONE to work.
> The vast majority of us in employment are not in our ideal jobs, earning the wage we deserve. I've only had two pay rises in the last decade and a half!
> Yes, existing is sometimes a struggle, but at least I'm not so entitled to think that I can spend as long as I want waiting for the perfect job to come to me while living off of hard working tax payers money and complaining that it's not fair that I get everything paid for me but, boo-hoo, only for a few months??!


That's false, no one enjoys being on unemployment benefits. you barely get enough to even hold a rent anymore with it, let alone also covering food. What I'm saying is straight up, the government shouldn't pick your fucking job, by forcing you to apply to everything and everyone. Your In the UK, so you don't know what the United States Unemployment benefits look like, but to say the least, it's not a whole lot. And nor are you aware of how poorly the country is paying. If you saw the jobs over here and how they'd paid. I'd think you loose your shit.


I'm going to bring cost as an example again. Let's say Rent+ utilizes is $850 (which is incredibly low as most Americans Deal with Rent in the $1,000s the 850 number is assuming your living in like, maybe two particular states were either housing or apartment costs haven't skyrocketed)
If a job is still paying $8.25 (they still fucking exist) if we go by a biweekly schedule, and assume that you get paid twice within each month. (330 for $8.25 for 40 hours x 2 for biweekly pay off x 2 again for the second time of pay) that's 1,320 dollars, WITHOUT TAX. You still have to pay for food, car insurance, health insurance, and gas for said car.
Since your someone from the UK you probably don't know this but the United States urban design is hot garbage, it's completely designed around cars. Otherwise your walking over 6 lanes of cars in a tiny cross walk, there is little to no trees to cover the area as someone walks, and most of the urban design as a result essentially requires you to have a car. Bus systems are often heavily underfunded.

The goverment is essentially forcing you into a job, that isn't even above your living standards, but rather the job itself is below all standards of living. I'm not saying "oh well just live off unemployment forever" we live in a capitalist system. But what I am getting at is this is the same fucking shit that people would use to argue against communism in every form, that communists are going to choose your jobs.

As for unemployment skyrocketing, it's inventively going to skyrocket if companies keep paying jack shit. Either they deal with their shitty job where they no longer can afford to keep their house.
Or they go onto unemployment, which also won't afford them to keep their house. Which one are they going to do?

the one where they are going in 40 hours ,and not able to keep their home?
or the one where they quit their job, go unemployed, and still can't afford to keep their house?


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## Nothereed (May 13, 2022)

Creamu said:


> You must understand, the leading Bolsheviks who took over Russia were not Russians. They hated Russians. They hated Christians. Driven by ethnic hatred they tortured and slaughtered millions of Russians without a shred of human remorse. It cannot be overstated. Bolshevism committed the greatest human slaughter of all time. The fact that most of the world is ignorant and uncaring about this enormous crime is proof that the global media is in the hands of the perpetrators.


That's not even my point (however to be clear I strongly hate  (Stalin/Lennism) bolshiviks count. They were somewhere inbetween state capitalist and state communist (most likely the former, since wealth distribution didn't happen.)
My point is that Captalists, fear mongering about communists entirely (even though there's different forms of it. Again, Stalin/Leninism can go to hell. I don't want a state, please and thank you.)
saying that communism will pick your job, and that's why you should never ever support communism. When well... here we are experiencing the same thing because
_muh economy_
In a situation where most people are barely getting by in the first place here in the states.


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## smf (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> What I'm saying is straight up, the government shouldn't pick your fucking job, by forcing you to apply to everything and everyone.


I'm not totally against the government assigning you a job, but then maybe it should be like jury service and everyone gets assigned a job at some point.

It would also be good if employers didn't basically give their employees ptsd so they won't leave, despite not being paid enough.

The majority of people in the UK on benefits, are actually in work. Because the jobs are too exploitative.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> That's not even my point (however to be clear I strongly hate  (Stalin/Lennism) bolshiviks count. They were somewhere inbetween state capitalist and state communist (most likely the former, since wealth distribution didn't happen.)
> My point is that Captalists, fear mongering about communists entirely (even though there's different forms of it. Again, Stalin/Leninism can go to hell. I don't want a state, please and thank you.)
> saying that communism will pick your job, and that's why you should never ever support communism. When well... here we are experiencing the same thing because
> _muh economy_
> In a situation where most people are barely getting by in the first place here in the states.


Yes, it is both planned economy. Only different on the surface level.


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## Nothereed (May 13, 2022)

smf said:


> I'm not totally against the government assigning you a job, but then maybe it should be like jury service and everyone gets assigned a job at some point.


they already have a soft deadline, which is 26 weeks, and it ends. And as a reminder, hopping back and forth onto a job to reclaim it, doesn't really work since unemployment benefits already pay so low.


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> That's false, no one enjoys being on unemployment benefits. you barely get enough to even hold a rent anymore with it, let alone also covering food. What I'm saying is straight up, the government shouldn't pick your fucking job, by forcing you to apply to everything and everyone. Your In the UK, so you don't know what the United States Unemployment benefits look like, but to say the least, it's not a whole lot. And nor are you aware of how poorly the country is paying. If you saw the jobs over here and how they'd paid. I'd think you loose your shit.
> 
> 
> I'm going to bring cost as an example again. Let's say Rent+ utilizes is $850 (which is incredibly low as most Americans Deal with Rent in the $1,000s the 850 number is assuming your living in like, maybe two particular states were either housing or apartment costs haven't skyrocketed)
> ...



To be honest you are just awful no one is going to pity you, if you find $8.25 an hour too little then hunt for a job that pay more than that, they are only going to help you for six months of unemployment after that it is over, If you stuck with that $8.25 option, then learn something that can pay you more money, learn to code to be a software engineer as it pay a lot.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> To be honest you are just awful no one is going to pity you, if you find $8.25 an hour too little then hunt for a job that pay more than that, they are only going to help you for six months of unemployment after that it is over, If you stuck with that $8.25 option, then learn something that can pay you more money, learn to code to be a software engineer as it pay a lot.


I feel sorry for anyone in that position. Europeans (the founders of the USA) were once proud people.


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## smf (May 13, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> then learn something that can pay you more money, learn to code to be a software engineer as it pay a lot.


Not everyone can learn to be a software engineer. A lot of software engineering jobs are being moved overseas where they can pay lower than US minimum wage.

Some people are lucky, some people aren't.


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

Creamu said:


> I feel sorry for anyone in that position. Europeans (the founders of the USA) were once proud people.



Seriously no one should pity OP, unemployment insurance would only help him/her for six month after that it is over, what they suppose to do feed OP for life.  If they find $8.25 is too little then find something that pay more than that. Actually you get less than 8 dollars from unemployment, you get about 400 before tax, so you get about 287, if you divide that by 40 you only get $7.17


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

smf said:


> Not everyone can learn to be a software engineer. A lot of software engineering jobs are being moved overseas where they can pay lower than US minimum wage.
> 
> Some people are lucky, some people aren't.



The thing is he is in control of his life, he can learn something that pay him more money, I been in OP situation before, I was on unemployment before, if dude want a better life he need to turn his life around. Not like unemployment benefit is forever.


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## Nothereed (May 13, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> To be honest you are just awful no one is going to pity you, if you find $8.25 an hour too little then hunt for a job that pay more than that, they are only going to help you for six months of unemployment after that it is over, If you stuck with that $8.25 option, then learn something that can pay you more money, learn to code to be a software engineer as it pay a lot.


not my point my guy. Goverment, forcing you to take that job. Since the ones that tend to pay the lowest are also the most desperate ones since no one is biting. And you are required while unemployed to apply to to the first available job. That would count. Same for any other job that is too low paying. Not my circumstances, it's called living in someone else's shoes.


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> not my point my guy. Goverment, forcing you to take that job. Since the ones that tend to pay the lowest are also the most desperate ones since no one is biting.



They ain't forcing you if you don't want to take the job then you will be unemployed for real there are plenty of jobs out there that pay atleast 2x of $8.25


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## Nothereed (May 13, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> They ain't forcing you if you don't want to take the job then you will be unemployed for real


yes when you already in a precarious situation, let's kick you down the flight of stairs (choosing not to take the job) instead of kicking you in the face(taking the job).
got it.


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> yes when you already in a precarious situation, let's kick you down the flight of stairs (choosing not to take the job) instead of kicking you in the face(taking the job).
> got it.



Lol I got a job and you don't so who is the idiot here.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> Seriously no one should pity OP, unemployment insurance would only help him/her for six month after that it is over, what they suppose to do feed OP for life.  If they find $8.25 is too little then find something that pay more than that. Actually you get less than 8 dollars from unemployment, you get about 400 before tax, so you get about 287, if you divide that by 40 you only get $7.17


I think alot of people in america find themselves in incredibly unfortunate situation. The oxycontin pandamic, with the heads of this evil occurance joking about the death of these "pill-billies". The death of despair statistic is rising exponetially. I feel very sorry. Take care us americans.


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## Nothereed (May 13, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> They ain't forcing you if you don't want to take the job then you will be unemployed for real there are plenty of jobs out there that pay atleast 2x of $8.25


Nice edit. Again, no. I live in North Dakota, I also lived in Arizona, and Nevada in the past. I consistantly have seen jobs paying below 10.00. Up until perhaps 1 and a half years ago. But that's after food and rent already priced hiked by over 200 dollars. The issue isn't just pay. While you want to keep believing that I somehow don't have a job. (How do I pay for the internet here to ramble if I don't have a job) The primary issue is again, Captalists claiming that they won't force workers into taking a job. While citing Communists/Socialists would. That's my original argument. And my argument is that the United States government is essentially doing the same thing.
If people are going to claim/cite (in this case the USSR) starving people intentionally because they didn't want to work the jobs the government wanted to. How on earth is this no different? You are choosing no to a specific job because it doesn't pay enough for living standards.

What's more supportive? giving 24 weeks for someone to get a working job in order?
Or if they deny the first job in that time period, kick them onto the streets, and end it.


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## Creamu (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Nice edit. Again, no. I live in North Dakota, I also lived in Arizona, and Nevada in the past. I consistantly have seen jobs paying below 10.00. Up until perhaps 1 and a half years ago. But that's after food and rent already priced hiked by over 200 dollars. The issue isn't just pay. While you want to keep believing that I somehow don't have a job. (How do I pay for the internet here to ramble if I don't have a job) The primary issue is again, Captalists claiming that they won't force workers into taking a job. While citing Communists/Socialists would. That's my original argument. And my argument is that the United States government is essentially doing the same thing.
> If people are going to claim/cite (in this case the USSR) starving people intentionally because they didn't want to work the jobs the government wanted to. How on earth is this no different?





> What OP is getting at in my view, and why this is relevant to this topic is that the bolshevik regime is now a global power, that has learned not to use hard power, like causing planned famine and mass starvation, mass shootings etc switching to softpower, since now they know what a terribel look that is. They use softpower instead of hardpower, and that is what OP describes. The differances are the mechanisms and how they are percieved, while being in essence the same. Same people, motives, goals different mechanisms. Hope that clarifies things for OP.
> 
> For furhter reading I recommend this:


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> Nice edit. Again, no. I live in North Dakota, I also lived in Arizona, and Nevada in the past. I consistantly have seen jobs paying below 10.00. Up until perhaps 1 and a half years ago. But that's after food and rent already priced hiked by over 200 dollars. The issue isn't just pay. While you want to keep believing that I somehow don't have a job. (How do I pay for the internet here to ramble if I don't have a job) The primary issue is again, Captalists claiming that they won't force workers into taking a job. While citing Communists/Socialists would. That's my original argument. And my argument is that the United States government is essentially doing the same thing.
> If people are going to claim/cite (in this case the USSR) starving people intentionally because they didn't want to work the jobs the government wanted to. How on earth is this no different? You are choosing no to a specific job because it doesn't pay enough for living standards.
> 
> What's more supportive? giving 24 weeks for someone to get a working job in order?
> Or if they deny the first job in that time period, kick them onto the streets, and end it.



Well *it is your choice after 6 months they ain't going to give you unemployment benefit like it or not*, if you get a job offer if you don't take it then it is on you, regardless on how much the minimum wage in your state is, you can get a job that pay more than the minimum wage.


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## Nothereed (May 13, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> Well *it is your choice after 6 months they ain't going to give you unemployment benefit like it or not*, if you get a job offer if you don't take it then it is on you, regardless on how much the minimum wage in your state is, you can get a job that pay more than the minimum wage.


that's not my point. If you don't remember Biden has put an excutive order that requires you to take the first job. If you don't, benefits end immediately afterword. I'm not stating what happens after 6 months. I'm talking specifically within that time period and the changes that have happened to it.


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## Hayato213 (May 13, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> that's not my point. If you don't remember Biden has put an excutive order that requires you to take the first job. If you don't, benefits end immediately afterword. I'm not stating what happens after 6 months. I'm talking specifically within that time period and the changes that have happened to it.



I don't see any difference though, a job is a job, you lose your unemployment benefit when you refuse to work since an employer made an offer to you.


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## Nightwish (May 13, 2022)

"Isn't it hypocritical to force people to take jobs while unemployed?"

Why hypocritical? But, no, not really. Someone has to make the real stuff that you consume. Maybe if you can trust people do produce something that is needed by someone else (even if delivering purchases or cleaning the street), but it's a tall order to expect people to be motivated and find the useful niche.
But it's not really the real complaint. Yes, it's hypocritical to speak of opportunities and prosperity when you're forced to accept anything at all, work conditions and wage be damned, effectively subsidizing uncompetitive companies with social programs, means testing and more policing, all while also making sure they collect rents and pay little to nothing back - it's hugely inefective, other than to create a lower class that workers are scared of being part of. Or, and here we ago again, the responsible thing to the economy sneezing is vastly increasing unemployment to cut the wage share of those who produce the value.

Those are not the same thing. And it's coming home to roost.


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## smf (May 14, 2022)

Hayato213 said:


> I don't see any difference though, a job is a job, you lose your unemployment benefit when you refuse to work since an employer made an offer to you.


That is fine until you factor in why people are unemployed in the first place.

A friend of mine worked at Virgin Games when they shut down, so many software houses in the UK went under at that point that all of the programmers swamped any available positions at other companies. For years afterwards there were no positions available for the existing programmers let alone people who graduated from university.

A friend of mine ended up unemployed and if he'd been forced to take the first zero hours contract he was offered or lose benefits, then his skills would essentially be pointless. A zero hours contract guarantees you no hours at all, your employer can tell you on the day whether you are required.

They trialed this in the UK and it forced people with first class degrees to do seasonal shop work, or starve. The employers knew they could treat the staff badly & the people who normally relied on working in shops at xmas etc were then unable to find employment. It is bad for the UK economy as people borrow money from the government to go to university and they only pay it back if they attain a certain level of salary, which they aren't going to do if you force them to abandon their career.

There is a problem in some deprived areas, where the people are so traumatized by deprivation that they don't aspire to anything and that does need to be addressed. However you don't fix that by giving ever bigger sticks to the people who were lucky that they didn't have that hurdle to overcome. Some people can overcome it, but not all.


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## Youkai (May 14, 2022)

Not sure about America but I think with some exceptions its the right thing.
While you don't work you kinda force everyone else to work for you so that you won't starve or whatever which also isn't fair.
Might sound rude but even as I have at least one friend who never worked in his life I think if you don't work even if you could you don't deserve much help at all.

But I can understand why people wouldn't want to do just every Job especially when they aren't stupid and would be able to do something better ... then again not every slacker who dropped out of school can become top manager at apple or whatever big company and earn like 10 million a day.


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## Zonark (May 14, 2022)

I wouldn’t say the governments forcing you to find a job. However I don’t think people should rely on unemployment. When someone is stuck on unemployment that’s a choice that person makes in all honesty even if the government requires you to attempt to find a job to stay on unemployment if you get hired by Said job and quit you terminate your unemployment benefits. People shouldn’t rely on someone else or handouts. You won’t be able to grow as a country when no one works towards a common goal. I do say that minimum wage needs to be raised but I also say that people need to maintain a job.


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## dragonmaster (May 14, 2022)

ok  i ve finished university and got my first job at minimum wage cause nobody was interested to offer me more than that,  i knew that in this situation i had no opportunity to support myself by my income. i did take some exams for gonvernment in my country and i sucessfully got in. what i see though is people of my age are forced to live with  a low income job, most of them with no abillity to support a familly now or in the near future while gonvernment of my country is whistling promises that dont fix a thing. it is for me so much angering that the system toss aside most of us to low income jobs or forces us to live alone as we cant support kids or familly


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## Creamu (May 14, 2022)

smf said:


> However you don't fix that by giving ever bigger sticks to the people who were lucky that they didn't have that hurdle to overcome.


Maybe it is a solution, it could be a motivator to change thing bottom to top.


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## smf (May 16, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Maybe it is a solution, it could be a motivator to change thing bottom to top.



You're talking as if this is a new idea, rather than something that consistently fails.


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## Creamu (May 16, 2022)

smf said:


> You're talking as if this is a new idea, rather than something that consistently fails.


There are historical examples that this has worked.


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## smf (May 16, 2022)

Creamu said:


> There are historical examples that this has worked.


Where exactly? Without descending into a crime spree or civil uprising,


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## Creamu (May 16, 2022)

smf said:


> Where exactly? Without descending into a crime spree or civil uprising,


Study the italian german history of the early 20th century.


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## AncientBoi (May 16, 2022)

Back to the main question, It is equally  Incomprehensible when the employers keepyou for just less than a month, then send you on your merry way. Especially when you have done Exactly what they wanted done. smh


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## smf (May 16, 2022)

Creamu said:


> Study the italian german history of the early 20th century.


No, if you want to make a point about something then you have to actually make a point.


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## Creamu (May 17, 2022)

smf said:


> No, if you want to make a point about something then you have to actually make a point.


EDIT: Unfortunatly I don't feel at liberty to make my point. It may or may not be within the bounds of valid free speech and I'm just going to assume that a discussion like this would not welcome on this plattform. I hate to do this, but if you want to know about this subject just look at the crude realities of italian and german history of the early 20th century.


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## Skelletonike (May 17, 2022)

What happens is that people end up mooching off of the government, like filthy parasites.
I know people that have been unemployed for over 10 years because they didn't want to do a job "beneath them". They have no problems asking for free stuff from the government and institutions though.

If someone is physically capable, they should get a job, if they can't afford expenses with the current job, either lower your expenses by getting something cheaper, sharing rent, or get a better job. Most people don't "wait" for a better job, they work for it.


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## Nightwish (May 17, 2022)

Creamu said:


> I hate to do this, but if you want to know about this subject just look at the crude realities of italian and german history of the early 20th century.


Dear Loki. If that's the argument, it worked much better in the backwater where the state gave back a bunch of things that made them better off and more productive. 
It still didn't work in the long term because both freedom and material well-being are kind of important for innovation.
But even disregarding that, I find it hard to believe you'd recommend the economic interventionism that made it work at all.


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## Creamu (May 17, 2022)

Nightwish said:


> Dear Loki. If that's the argument,


Obviously not an argument, a direction.



Nightwish said:


> freedom and material well-being are kind of important for innovation.


An example for this?


Nightwish said:


> But even disregarding that, I find it hard to believe you'd recommend the economic interventionism that made it work at all.


Care to elaborate?


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## Nightwish (Jun 3, 2022)

An example? Life. Try to be creative with little money while thinking how are you going to pay medical bills and feed your kids and pay rent, and you might find yourself a little bit distracted, even if you sleep well and the medical issue is actually solved.

As to history, I'll leave it historians, it's well documented. And in digestible free format.


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## Creamu (Jun 3, 2022)

Nightwish said:


> An example? Life. Try to be creative with little money while thinking how are you going to pay medical bills and feed your kids and pay rent, and you might find yourself a little bit distracted, even if you sleep well and the medical issue is actually solved.
> 
> As to history, I'll leave it historians, it's well documented. And in digestible free format.


Desperate coherent groups are able to move mountains. Look how japan built their mercilessly bombarded country back up.

Individualism in its contemporary conception and wellbeing, is embodied by the US baby boomer generation. Frankly noone is impressed.


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## NickJackson1997 (Nov 24, 2022)

America is known not only for its large inflow of migrants and well-developed healthcare system but also for its differing wages in all areas. The law stipulates that regardless of the position and experience, an employee should receive at least $7.25 per hour. I'm not interested in that kind of pay, so I'm looking for more lucrative options on the Govt Jobs bulletin board. I hope I can find a job to be able to feed my children.


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## Xerokard (Nov 24, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> For frame of context. Most of the strongest people against socialism or communism. (as a reminder i am an anarcho communist. Stalin/Lennism can go to hell) State that communism selects your job, and you have no control.... (even though that's usually lennism/authoritarian communism)
> Meanwhile in our society in the United States those same people are essentially doing the exact thing they criticize.
> where minimum wage is definitely not enough for rent, electric and utilizes, car insurance, food, and internet, oh and also health insurance and supposed to have savings.
> and many companies still pay a below living wage/near  or at minimum wage. The government is now forcing people who are on unemployment for any reason, to take the next immediate job or loose unemployment benefits, which means... loosing the lights.
> So either you can't keep, or barely can keep the lights on with unemployment (since it pays higher than the garbage minimum wage), and the moment you find a job, and it pays 8.25. (Unemployment is roughly about 9-10 dollars an hour) Your essentially fucked, You can't wait for a higher paying job, your forced into the lower paying one. How is this not the EXACT complaint people against Socialism/Communism make. The government is straight up forcing you into a job you do not want.


So you want things given to you, just for being alive. How pathetic. If you want anything in life, you need to earn it. No one owes you a damn thing for simply existing.


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## sombrerosonic (Dec 5, 2022)

It sounds like this thread got filled with fucking bots


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