# Trans Girl Suspended From High School for Using Bathroom



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

> Two transgender high school students in Fort Collins, Colo., say they have been forbidden to use student restrooms, and one of them, 16-year-old Dionne Malikowski, just got suspended for doing so. Malikowski, a trans girl, and her friend Kurt Peters, also 16 and a trans guy, say they have been told to use the staff bathrooms at Fort Collins High School. But, Malikowski told reporters, “There’s not staff bathrooms all over the school, so when you really got to pee, you got to pee.”
> 
> That’s what she says happened about a month ago when she used the women’s restroom, reports W9 News in Colorado. And then she was suspended for three days.
> 
> ...



Source:Advocate
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/11/10/Trans_Girl_Suspended_from_High_School_for_Using_Bathroom/

Opinions????????????


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

Sexism. School likes female over males. Age old elementary school myth come to life.


----------



## Nah3DS (Nov 11, 2011)

NahuelDS said:


> When I read the title I knew it was you


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!


----------



## chyyran (Nov 11, 2011)

This is stupid. Suspending for using the bathroom?

Just.. I don't even..

You suspend people for waving knives at others. Not going into the bathroom.


----------



## deathking (Nov 11, 2011)

Use the staff bathrooms problem solved
if your busting soooo bad you got balder problems go and see a doctor you dont instantly need the toilet go 5 minutes before you really need to go
how big is the school anyways for them not to be able to make it to the staff toilets



Punyman said:


> This is stupid. Suspending for using the bathroom?
> 
> Just.. I don't even..
> 
> You suspend people for waving knives at others. Not going into the bathroom.



Its not the issue
its the fact that a transgender male is using female bathrooms
and a female is using the male bathrooms


----------



## DinohScene (Nov 11, 2011)

In an ideal world.

people will treat everyone equally and there is no war over religion etc etc.

Sadly we don't live in that world.
Imo their just 2 human beings that deserve equal rights!


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

> Malikowski told reporters, “There’s not staff bathrooms all over the school, so when you really got to pee, you got to pee.”


This is the most beautiful grammar I've seen in my life.
"when you really got to pee, you got to pee"? Don't you have some patience? 

As for the suspension, if she can't deal with the school and the Transgender Law Center's policies (whether it is right or wrong), she should go to another school. It's for _her_ _fucking_ _safety_. And to be honest, I'd be so cool to use a staff restroom. 

I'm not trying to be sexist, but she should be a little smarter and acknowledge how much danger she is putting herself in.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

I think the school staff should think something better than just "Use the staff bathroom."


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

So should I. I don't think it's fair that she has to look for a staff bathroom to piss.


----------



## Hells Malice (Nov 11, 2011)

I sort of see where they're coming from. Due to a likely lack of tolerance in the student body, the rules are enforced that way to ensure comfort for the majority over the minority, which makes sense TBH.

Right or wrong, I have no real opinion on that.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

But sometimes the majority's opinion shouldn't matter anyone who's had an American History class should know that. Though from your profile it says you live in Canada. Have you ever had an American History class Hells Malice?


----------



## Thesolcity (Nov 11, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> I think the school staff should think something better than just "Use the staff bathroom."



Port-a-potty?


----------



## Hells Malice (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> But sometimes the majority's opinion shouldn't matter anyone who's had an American History class should know that. Though from your profile it says you live in Canada. Have you ever had an American History class Hells Malice?



I slept through basically all history classes I had because most of the tests were essay tests, and I rocked at bullshitting them for perfect marks, knowing nothing.

So, nope.

I think SOMETIMES the majorities opinion shouldn't matter, but school and everything that goes on in it are a different matter entirely. If you've got parents of two pissed off trans kids, you can deal with them easier than the possible mob of angry morons you might get for sticking with the minority.
Student parents are insane.
Likewise both trans kids are a lot less likely to get bullied if they just use a staff bathroom instead.

Unfortunately for situations where tolerance is required, school is the worst for not having any such tolerance.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

Thesolcity said:


> Hyro-Sama said:
> 
> 
> > I think the school staff should think something better than just "Use the staff bathroom."
> ...




LOL. So mean.

I believe the school districts have had enough time to realize transgenders are apart of public school life and should already have a solution. It's being lazy on the school districts part.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

I think she should have just went on the floor since see couldn't make it to a staff bathroom... 

Seriously tho, where the transgender bathrooms? I think that a better solution then suspending when a student can't make it to a staff bathroom.
Doesn't even need to be that big, just spread around.
Holding it for long isn't even healthy.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> I think she should have just went on the floor since see couldn't make it to a staff bathroom...
> 
> Seriously tho, where the transgender bathrooms? I think that a better solution then suspending when a student can't make it to a staff bathroom.
> Doesn't even need to be that big, just spread around.
> Holding it for long isn't even healthy.



I guess we should bring back the *coloured* bathrooms while we're at it, eh?


----------



## Thesolcity (Nov 11, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> Thesolcity said:
> 
> 
> > Hyro-Sama said:
> ...



Ok....but what if a majority of non-trans students didn't "accept" transgender students? You can't force them to and the liability of what these kids would/could do to them is hell. You can't police the entire school either, that'll get some lawsuits ready. Stuck between a rock and a hard place, telling them to use the staff bathroom is the most efficient way of getting rid of potential problems, unfortunately.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Then I guess you never heard of the Little Rock 9. They were nine black students that enrolled in Little Rock Central High School (an all white school) in 1957 who the vast majority of students (possibly all of them) hated because they were black and bullied and harassed them because of it.


----------



## deathking (Nov 11, 2011)

why are people acting like its so hard to find and use the staff bathrooms
staff would have as accessible bathrooms as the students
i feel sorry for the teachers in that school due to the maze and ladders they need to climb to use the toilet


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

Thesolcity said:


> Hyro-Sama said:
> 
> 
> > Thesolcity said:
> ...



I guess. It just seems lazy. I understand that you cannot expect of all people *High school students* to be tolerant.


----------



## Hells Malice (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Then I guess you never heard of the Little Rock 9. They were nine black students that enrolled in Little Rock Central High School (an all white school) in 1957 who the vast majority of students (possibly all of them) hated because they were black and bullied and harassed them because of it.



Er, 1957?
Aren't you talking about a vast majority of America, or hell even NA.

Or at the very least, all of the South.


----------



## VashTS (Nov 11, 2011)

why are they upset about this? they chose this life style, you gotta expect the consequences.

the world is NOT going to bend to you, and if you expect that...fuck you then. deal with it or GTFO. seriously im in rage mode right now, that shit angers me and i deal with it on a daily basis.

wah wah wah i can't use the men's bathroom (yet im really a woman) boo hoo my life is over. wait until you get into the real world and see what happens, losers. grow up. if i get a tattoo and people judge me then i accept it.

pls do NOT flame this with ITS NOTS A CHOICE VASH, yuuu rrr a bigot! bull shit its a fucking choice, you choose to dress/act like the opposite sex. get naked and they tell me they are not choosing to have a penis/vagina.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Nonetheless it was popular opinion, the students and their parents didn't like black students. Should the school have just expelled them to please the racist students and parents??


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> > I think she should have just went on the floor since see couldn't make it to a staff bathroom...
> ...


Not such if that connected...

Maybe we should have a larger spread of unisex bathrooms and be done with it...




VashTS said:


> why are they upset about this? they chose this life style, you gotta expect the consequences.
> 
> the world is NOT going to bend to you, and if you expect that...fuck you then. deal with it or GTFO. seriously im in rage mode right now, that shit angers me and i deal with it on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


You right. Transgenders/gay/lesbians/bisexuals shouldn't even have rights, they aren't human.
It not happening to me, so it must be complete lies.  

A tattoo, a mark on the skin, compare to a whole human, really?


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Fine Vash you're a douchebag bigot, science disagrees with you as transgender brains are similar to the opposite sex. Don't troll my thread, trying to start a flame war. Go and troll some other threads.


----------



## Hells Malice (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Nonetheless it was popular opinion, the students and their parents didn't like black students. Should the school have just expelled them to please the racist students and parents??



In 1957? Probably. Would it be right? No. I'd rather be expelled instead of being treated like shit for my entire highschool career.
In 2011? No, because there would be much less of a problem.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> Hyro-Sama said:
> 
> 
> > KingVamp said:
> ...



One bathroom for everybody? I can imagine what that would smell like and I die a little inside.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Problem to who? Transgenders are still people. And injustice is injustice even if it's not gigantic news.


----------



## Thesolcity (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Nonetheless it was popular opinion, the students and their parents didn't like black students. Should the school have just expelled them to please the racist students and parents??



What? No. We're not talking about expulsion here, its a high school bathroom, A *BATHROOM. *They are trying to prevent something bad from happening and people are too trigger happy to call discrimination. Frankly, I'd be psyched to use the staff bathroom, its clean there. Now as for suspension, schools have rules, rules were broken and punishment was delivered accordingly. People don't like it, but that's the rules. :/


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Nonetheless it was popular opinion, the students and their parents didn't like black students. Should the school have just expelled them to please the racist students and parents??


Let me reiterate: Just use the Staff Restrooms. She had the choice to evade any danger and criticism by doing that.




smile72 said:


> Problem to who? Transgenders are still people. And injustice is injustice even if it's not gigantic news.


They chose to be justified as 'abnormal.' They have to deal with what they chose. And it isn't injustice. It was for _her safety_.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Yes, a  bathroom may be a minor issue in comparison, but it is discrimination nonetheless.And sometimes rules are meant to be broken because they are unfair to one group who harms no one.

Depending on her high school's size the staff bathroom might have been too far away from her next class.


----------



## deathking (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Problem to who? Transgenders are still people. And injustice is injustice even if it's not gigantic news.


what have they got between the legs
because at 16 they are just pretending to be a different gender as they havent got the operation yet
and its not an injustice they can still use the bathroom of the gender of their birth


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Yes, a  bathroom may be a minor issue in comparison, but it is discrimination nonetheless.And sometimes rules are meant to be broken because they are unfair to one group *who harms no one*.


Nobody but themselves, you mean. By doing such things, they are putting themselves in danger of being bullied and criticized. Staff restrooms are so much more secure than public restrooms.




smile72 said:


> Depending on her high school's size the staff bathroom might have been too far away from her next class.


She chose it herself; she has to deal with it.

"Depending on her high school's size the staff public bathroom might have been too far away from her next class." Same thing.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

I know that but they may not be located in the most convenient places in the high school.


----------



## deathking (Nov 11, 2011)

say a guy wants to perv on girls so he acts like a girl like that movie sorority boys
and gets in the female bathroom and the school allows it and something happens
the school would get its sued so hard
that is why they are banned from pretending to be a different sex but if they want they can use the staff bathrooms


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

Wonder if staff can use student bathrooms.







If I'm reading right, tbh, they look like they went to the right bathrooms. Just base on looks...

I didn't know man... I think if they install more well place small genderless bathrooms that this can be avoided.Which not everyone has to use and
it be keep clean like the other bathrooms.

We have them at my school.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> I know that but they may not be located in the most convenient places in the high school.


 "Depending on her high school's size the staff public bathroom might have been too far away from her next class." Same thing; it depends on her next class' location.

And why is it derailing to "maybe she needs to use a public bathroom"? No. Everybody has bladders to hold our waste. She's just impatient.




KingVamp said:


> *Wonder if staff can use student bathrooms.*
> 
> *image
> 
> If I'm reading right, tbh, they look like they went to the right bathrooms. Just base on looks...


I believe they can (at least the majority of teachers do, at my school). But that's not the problem. It's about a female entering a male public restroom and a male entering a female public restroom.

No matter how they look, they we're only given the option to use staff restrooms, which are much safer for them.


----------



## nugundam0079 (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Nonetheless it was popular opinion, the students and their parents didn't like black students. Should the school have just expelled them to please the racist students and parents??




Please do not compare this incident to what happened to colored folks back then-Transgenders have a choice to choose what sex they'll be from one day to the next-Not the same for Blacks.This has always bothered me that Gay,Lesbian,Transgendered people like to compare their troubles to what happened to African Americans,Jews and other minority's because you choose to put on panties instead of boxers one day to the next does not mean you're facing the same problems as someone who is Black or Chinese.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Of course, but when you hide something your mental health starts deteriorating. And that's not Transgender, transsexuals feel they were born in the wrong body. Not "I think I'll be a boy today and a girl tomorrow."


----------



## nugundam0079 (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Of course, but when you hide something your mental health starts deteriorating. And that's not Transgender, transsexuals feel they were born in the wrong body. Not "I think I'll be a boy today and a girl tomorrow."



Understandable-But I know and I've seen too many people play it easy with their gender and gender preferences-One day they're into guys,oh wait that didn't work out, then the switch over to girls and vice versa. It's makes people like that extremely difficult to take seriously.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Of course, but when you hide something your mental health starts deteriorating. And that's not Transgender, transsexuals feel they were born in the wrong body. Not "I think I'll be a boy today and a girl tomorrow."


I've hid my true self from everybody else for years. _Years_. I've never felt mentally distressed at all.

Whether they feel like they should have been born in the opposite gender or not, they weren't. DEAL WITH IT.  
You have to blend into society, not make the society blend you in.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

You got some (if not all) transgenders wrong if you think they just go back in forth all year long. Someone told me it is possible to look all female and have
male chromosomes and vi versa.
So should those people at their looks or their chromosomes?

None us could truly understand since we aren't transgender/bi/gay/lesbian.




s4mid4re said:


> smile72 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, but when you hide something your mental health starts deteriorating. And that's not Transgender, transsexuals feel they were born in the wrong body. Not "I think I'll be a boy today and a girl tomorrow."
> ...




@below Not really sure in the matter, that just how I understand it.
So, the girls in other countries getting slap around and abused should just deal with it.

Or any human face with any abuse should just deal with it?


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

That's not transgender, and what your describing is bisexual. As they date both gender (though not at once).

I did before I came out of the closet, I felt like everyone hated me, I was extremely paranoid of anyone finding out I was gay and outing me. And why should I have to blend in with society? Why should I have to tolerate the social prejudice?


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

Nobody should ever know who you really are. Letting people know just makes it easier for people to take advantage of you.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> You got some (if not all) transgenders wrong if you think they just go back in forth all year long. Someone told me it is possible to look all female and have
> male chromosomes and vi versa.
> So should those people at their looks or their chromosomes?
> 
> ...


That's not what I meant by "DEAL WITH IT." They should blend into society by following school policies and use the staff restrooms. That's the whole point of the staff restroom thing: to avoid abuse, while retaining their sexuality.




smile72 said:


> That's not transgender, and what your describing is bisexual. As they date both gender (though not at once).
> 
> I did before I came out of the closet, I felt like everyone hated me, I was extremely paranoid of anyone finding out I was gay and outing me. And why should I have to blend in with society? Why should I have to tolerate the social prejudice?


It's not like the school is being prejudice. Besides, school policies are imposed to prevent people like you from abuse. They're your allies, but you're not using their aid affectively. You have to acknowledge that this is how society is. There's nothing we can do.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

That's kind of also like saying follow society laws and policy's. Until 2003, there were still state that criminalized sodomy with jail time. Should gay people simply not have sex or show affection to each other to appease the government? Should they not fight against the unfair laws?

Nonetheless, if they feel it's unfair they should fight against the school's policies.


----------



## gameandmatch (Nov 11, 2011)

Wow, ok. I am on both sides on this one, and why do I find myself in these topics of yours?


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Because they're interesting!


----------



## Thesolcity (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> That's kind of also like saying follow society laws and policy's. Until 2003, there were still state that criminalized sodomy with jail time. Should gay people simply not have sex or show affection to each other to appease the government? Should they not fight against the unfair laws?
> 
> Nonetheless, if they feel it's unfair they should fight against the school's policies.



And do what? Sue the school for potentially protecting them? They don't want to see the kids get beaten by some asshole's bf cause she saw a transgender male whip out a shlong in the girl's bathroom. You take your pick: Staff bathroom or beaten corpse. Because there is a lot of kids who wouldn't accept them and you have no control over their minds or their actions.


----------



## Crimson Ghoul (Nov 11, 2011)

I would've gone in the staff restroom, it's much cleaner


----------



## Forstride (Nov 11, 2011)

Pretty stupid, but then again, so is becoming a t****** at fucking 16 years of age.  For such a major life decision, why would you do it when you're 16?


----------



## gameandmatch (Nov 11, 2011)

Thesolcity said:


> smile72 said:
> 
> 
> > That's kind of also like saying follow society laws and policy's. Until 2003, there were still state that criminalized sodomy with jail time. Should gay people simply not have sex or show affection to each other to appease the government? Should they not fight against the unfair laws?
> ...



you have a point there 



Crimson Ghoul said:


> I would've gone in the staff restroom, it's much cleaner


Isn't that the truth


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Asshole will always pick fights, bullying will always happen. That shouldn't stop them from using public bathrooms in the school. And it doesn't always lead to death.

TDWP don't use slurs. Most people know whether they're a transgender individual really young they feel like they were born in the wrong body and want to be the other gender.


----------



## Forstride (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> TDWP don't use slurs. Most people know whether they're a transgender individual really young they feel like they were born in the wrong body and want to be the other gender.


t****** is a slur?  Seems more like a shortened version of transvestite to me.  That's like saying gay is a slur, which is just a short way of saying homosexual.  Jesus, people get so offended over this crap it's not even funny.

Why do you even post such awkward stuff like this anyways?


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Asshole will always pick fights, bullying will always happen. That shouldn't stop them from using public bathrooms in the school. And it doesn't always lead to death.


And that rate increases against transsexual people going to their 'correct' restrooms. Those policies exist to protect them from such bullies, or at least decrease the rate. It's not unfair, in fact, it's beneficial for them. And it's not about the bullies; people just don't feel secure in a public restroom with somebody of the opposite gender. The school can't make those people who feel insecure (which is the majority) to use public restrooms with people of the opposite gender.


----------



## Gahars (Nov 11, 2011)

I guess you guys don't know how serious the crime of pooping and/or peeing is.

Really, though, is it that hard to let these kids use the bathrooms of the genders they identify as? Wouldn't that be easier than pulling this shit and getting media attention as bigots? Just a thought.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Nope its a slur. What makes it awkward?


----------



## TerraPhantm (Nov 11, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> You right. Transgenders/gay/lesbians/bisexuals shouldn't even have rights, they aren't human.
> It not happening to me, so it must be complete lies.
> 
> A tattoo, a mark on the skin, compare to a whole human, really?



Thing is - all this fuss is over just a bathroom.

(I'm assuming your a guy) - Let's say hypothetically that you were forced to use a women's bathroom for whatever reason... would you really feel like less of a man after you're done with your business?


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> That's not transgender, and what your describing is bisexual. As they date both gender (though not at once).
> 
> I did before I came out of the closet, I felt like everyone hated me, I was extremely paranoid of anyone finding out I was gay and outing me. And why should I have to blend in with society? Why should I have to tolerate the social prejudice?


I think it is more of intersex. I think bisexual only has to do with attractions to gender and not gender itself.


----------



## Thesolcity (Nov 11, 2011)

TerraPhantm said:


> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> > You right. Transgenders/gay/lesbians/bisexuals shouldn't even have rights, they aren't human.
> ...



Why yes, I like me my urinals. 

Btw there are unisex restrooms if anyone is wondering.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

No the person was describing a person who likes guys one day and then likes girl because it didn't work out.


----------



## Crimson Ghoul (Nov 11, 2011)

I'm sorry but why is there always news like this on here. This is a hacking/gaming forum not this. This always ends up in flame wars because not everyone es accepting. I used to be a bible thumping Christian and I used to be so judgemental. Then I realized it was stupid and unfair. It would be easier to make seperate restrooms for transgender people so they would be more comfortable with their own kind where they wouldn't be judged. But then again their population is too small for people to invest money to accommodate them. For now, as long as the old people are around with their hateful way influencing the youth, there will be no peace


----------



## Thesolcity (Nov 11, 2011)

Crimson Ghoul said:


> I'm sorry but why is there always news like this on here. This is a hacking/gaming forum not this. This always ends up in flame wars because not everyone es accepting. I used to be a bible thumping Christian and I used to be so judgemental. Then I realized it was stupid and unfair. It would be easier to make seperate restrooms for transgender people so they would be more comfortable with their own kind where they wouldn't be judged. But then again their population is too small for people to invest money to accommodate them. For now, as long as the old people are around with their hateful way influencing the youth, there will be no peace



You know what's funny? I swear my great grandmother is a die-hard liberal/lefty/whatever you label it as. She's all for gay rights, _AND_ she's Christian. +1 for old folks, I guess?


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

Crimson Ghoul said:


> I'm sorry but why is there always news like this on here. This is a hacking/gaming forum not this. This always ends up in flame wars because not everyone es accepting. I used to be a bible thumping Christian and I used to be so judgemental. Then I realized it was stupid and unfair. It would be easier to make seperate restrooms for transgender people so they would be more comfortable with their own kind where they wouldn't be judged. But then again their population is too small for people to invest money to accommodate them. For now, as long as the old people are around with their hateful way influencing the youth, there will be no peace


This is General Off-Topic area. This subject is generally off-topic.

The staff restroom is their place of comfort, yet they don't acknowledge that it's safer there than using public restrooms.

I'm not die-hard Christian, but I am Christian. I felt nothing wrong with it. My thoughts are rarely skewed by the bible anyways.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

Liberal or lefty are fine. I prefer liberal but that's just me.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

Unisex bathrooms for the lose. BOO.


----------



## Crimson Ghoul (Nov 11, 2011)

Thesolcity said:


> Crimson Ghoul said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry but why is there always news like this on here. This is a hacking/gaming forum not this. This always ends up in flame wars because not everyone es accepting. I used to be a bible thumping Christian and I used to be so judgemental. Then I realized it was stupid and unfair. It would be easier to make seperate restrooms for transgender people so they would be more comfortable with their own kind where they wouldn't be judged. But then again their population is too small for people to invest money to accommodate them. For now, as long as the old people are around with their hateful way influencing the youth, there will be no peace
> ...


Women are different though. Many see the world with love and kindness. Some, mainly men, are so caught up in their machismo that they can't let others be happy. My parents are by the bible Christian. They don't hate but they disapprove. Me on the other hand, have learned to not stick my nose where it doesn't belong. If you really reflect on the purpose of life, you'll find that their is none. It's just a few decades of trying to fill a void with as much happiness and gratification as possible.


----------



## Gahars (Nov 11, 2011)

Because being a man means you are automatically programmed towards prejudice, while women are just different and so gosh darned understanding. Of course.


----------



## Forstride (Nov 11, 2011)

Crimson Ghoul said:


> Women are different though. Many see the world with love and kindness. Some, mainly men, are so caught up in their machismo that they can't let others be happy. My parents are by the bible Christian. They don't hate but they disapprove. Me on the other hand, have learned to not stick my nose where it doesn't belong. If you really reflect on the purpose of life, you'll find that their is none. It's just a few decades of trying to fill a void with as much happiness and gratification as possible.


First off, that's just stupid, and borderline-sexist (Women do tend to be more compassionate towards others, but that doesn't mean men can't be either).  And what is wrong with not liking how someone lives their life?  You said they don't hate it, so they must not be going around protesting it or anything.  It's the same as say, thinking it's completely moronic how teenagers still in high school get pregnant or whatever.

Just because someone disapproves of something, doesn't mean they're a bigoted, judgmental extremist.

EDIT: Typos...I've been typing like crap all night.


----------



## Crimson Ghoul (Nov 11, 2011)

Gahars said:


> Because being a man means you are automatically programmed towards prejudice, while women are just different and so gosh darned understanding. Of course.


No, but men are more prone to animalistic behavior. We're usually more violent than women. But I guess it all depends on environment. I was beat my whole childhood but I'm still nice and sweet lol


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

TerraPhantm said:


> Thing is - all this fuss is over just a bathroom.
> 
> (I'm assuming your a guy) - Let's say hypothetically that you were forced to use a women's bathroom for whatever reason... would you really feel like less of a man after you're done with your business?


No, but then if they force me to go the women bathroom and identify myself as a male, what the point of making it a girl bathroom?
This is a person who identify herself as a girl who has to inconveniently pass the girl bathroom and hope see doesn't go where
see runs. Usually student bathrooms are right next to each other. Where the staff is completely somewhere else in small number.



Hyro-Sama said:


> Unisex bathrooms for the lose. BOO.


 Don't use them then.

If people are just going to use the bathroom, they shouldn't be looking see if someone has a "shlong" and mind their on business.

I'm pretty such they can tell if someone creeping in the bathroom which gender wouldn't even apply then...


----------



## Gahars (Nov 11, 2011)

Crimson Ghoul said:


> Gahars said:
> 
> 
> > Because being a man means you are automatically programmed towards prejudice, while women are just different and so gosh darned understanding. Of course.
> ...



Because if you have a penis, that means you're going to go _Lord of the Flies_ on everyone at the slightest provocation. Of course.

You have some... interesting (i.e. badly misinformed and full on sexist) views on the differences between the genders.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

No men do tend to be more violent. If you go by crimes and such.


----------



## koimayeul (Nov 11, 2011)

I am sorry to back up the previous statement, but i seriously wish a mindful mod will some sort of pending approval on your topics Smile72. This is going quite far every few days with gay/lesbian/trans whatever controversary crap building up heat. 

Opinions?????

This here is a gaming/hacking forum and the age of users is mostly below 20 to say the least. Personaly i wouldn't mind but if i was a father already and have my child browsing here, i would hate him or her to dive into such things. What are you trying to prove anyway? To justify your sexuality and find/build a community on here? I don't know and don't care either way but please, behave accordingly to the userbase and tie in your appetite for dispute to somehwere else. Peace out!


----------



## gameandmatch (Nov 11, 2011)

Gahars said:


> Because being a man means you are automatically programmed towards prejudice, while women are just different and so gosh darned understanding. Of course.



Much be true in you area, definitely not mine's though. Usually both are like "being a man"


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

They're all different topics that vary. I'm not aiming for controversy at all. Nor looking for approval merely looking for to give people some news they might otherwise have not found.

And I don't feel the need to justify my sexuality, I stopped doing that in middle school.


----------



## Devante (Nov 11, 2011)

Not sure what the confusion is. They are using the wrong bathrooms and got in trouble for it. 

Choosing to act like a girl doesn't make you a girl. You still are physically a male so why on earth would you expect to be able to infringe on the opposite sex's privacy?

Also sounds like the one that got suspended has done it before and was warned. And the school was even willing to give them special treatment and allow them use of private staff bathrooms. 

How could anyone feel bad for the juveniles?


----------



## Gahars (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> No men do tend to be more violent. If you go by crimes and such.



There is a difference between "What tends to happen" (Often due to the environments the criminals are born into and/or the views of the general culture) and "Fundamental dispositions in the genders". Saying that men are born ignorant, prejudiced, and hateful beings while women are automatically understanding and insightful is a terribly misinformed view. It creates a stigma around being male while creating an excuse for terrible behavior, along with elevating women to an unfair, unreachable standard. Men are just as capable of compassion, and women are just as capable of hatred. It isn't just misinformed, it is demeaning to both genders.

As to gameandmatch... what?


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

You don't understand trans-sexuality do you? A person feels they were born in the wrong body and feels they were born the opposite gender.

No I don't disagree that statement was sexist. We just tend to be a bit more violent though women can be just as ignorant as anyone else it varies from person to person.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> You don't understand trans-sexuality do you? A person feels they were born in the wrong body and feels they were born the opposite gender.


They still have a dick that females in a restroom would feel insecure to be around. They can still use the staff restrooms.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

koimayeul said:


> I am sorry to back up the previous statement, but i seriously wish a mindful mod will some sort of pending approval on your topics Smile72. This is going quite far every few days with gay/lesbian/trans whatever controversary crap building up heat.
> 
> Opinions?????
> 
> This here is a gaming/hacking forum and the age of users is mostly below 20 to say the least. Personaly i wouldn't mind but if i was a father already and have my child browsing here, i would hate him or her to dive into such things. What are you trying to prove anyway? To justify your sexuality and find/build a community on here? I don't know and don't care either way but please, behave accordingly to the userbase and tie in your appetite for dispute to somehwere else. Peace out!


The thread seem tamed. I didn't think the 20years and down for most, isn't right at all. I'm pretty such ages are evenly or more to the teen/adult side.
I'm pretty such there was a poll on this.

A child would even know what we are talking about and at some point they need to know this anyway,
If they did, it would probably be from school or somewhere else before they get to this site.
Kids (near preteens) are learning things faster.

Plus we can talking about other things, specially in the general off-topic. That is what it for, off topic, yet still controlled.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

It's been stated already that in the vast majority of high schools there tends to be a lot less staff bathrooms.


----------



## Crimson Ghoul (Nov 11, 2011)

I wasn't trying to be sexist. That's just the observation on my part. I haven't traveled the world so I can't speak for other parts of the world. As far as I've seen and experienced is how I make my conclusions. Not by someone else's account or data. I simply live logically. Don't start shit and you won't be in shit. Simple as that.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

smile72 said:


> It's been stated already that in the vast majority of high schools there tends to be a lot less staff bathrooms.


it's not like people go to school to use the bathroom. 

People can store waste in their bodies. It's not something critical.


----------



## injected11 (Nov 11, 2011)

Gahars said:


> Because if you have a penis, that means you're going to go _Lord of the Flies_ on everyone at the slightest provocation. Of course.
> 
> You have some... interesting (i.e. badly misinformed and full on sexist) views on the differences between the genders.


It's statistically proven that males are far more prone to violence than females.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

s4mid4re said:


> smile72 said:
> 
> 
> > You don't understand trans-sexuality do you? A person feels they were born in the wrong body and feels they were born the opposite gender.
> ...


So, a female with a dick can't go to the female bathroom because other females will feel insecure at something they shouldn't be looking at it in the first place?
Since when insecurities overrides human rights and fairness?




s4mid4re said:


> smile72 said:
> 
> 
> > It's been stated already that in the vast majority of high schools there tends to be a lot less staff bathrooms.
> ...


It is not healthy to just do that and in all honesty, not all people can do that as effectively.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 11, 2011)

No, but if you hold it too long you'll piss yourself.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 11, 2011)

Just install a single person bathroom in each classroom so no one has to stare at anyone's junk. Problem Solved.  Cookie please.



smile72 said:


> No, but if you hold it too long you'll piss yourself.



Man up. I can hold piss for hours.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> s4mid4re said:
> 
> 
> > smile72 said:
> ...


It's not a female with a dick. It's a male with a dick that feels like he should be female.



KingVamp said:


> s4mid4re said:
> 
> 
> > it's not like people go to school to use the bathroom.
> ...


The human body is made to be able to resist peeing. If they feel it's unhealthy, they should use a staff bathroom or just get over with it and become 'normal' as most people think.


----------



## Crimson Ghoul (Nov 11, 2011)

injected11 said:


> Gahars said:
> 
> 
> > Because if you have a penis, that means you're going to go _Lord of the Flies_ on everyone at the slightest provocation. Of course.
> ...





injected11 said:


> Gahars said:
> 
> 
> > Because if you have a penis, that means you're going to go _Lord of the Flies_ on everyone at the slightest provocation. Of course.
> ...


Thanks for having my back. When people argue with me on things I don't know much about I usually get very quiet


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 11, 2011)

s4mid4re said:


> It's not a female with a dick. It's a male with a dick that feels like he should be female.


She not saying see a female on a quick thought, see truly saying see a female. So a female with man parts.  
Physical parts doesn't necessarily make that who you are.  



s4mid4re said:


> The human body is made to be able to resist peeing. If they feel it's unhealthy, they should use a staff bathroom or just get over with it and become 'normal' as most people think.


You not meant to hold it for too long.
Telling her form to being "normal" is like saying you are bad for trying to be yourself.

Only defenses to this is she could be acting, but there aren't any evidence to doubt her. 

Not everyone the same.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 11, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> s4mid4re said:
> 
> 
> > It's not a female with a dick. It's a male with a dick that feels like he should be female.
> ...


----------



## Midna (Nov 11, 2011)

s4 you can have those views, but you're getting your definitions mixed up and it's ruining your argument.


----------



## BrightNeko (Nov 11, 2011)

the school is both right and wrong in this. Protecting the people in this from being bullied by their peers by telling them to use the staff bathrooms was a very good idea. However they seem to never had made it clear where the bathrooms were, and suspending the teen for using the bathroom was not the right course of action. Scolding like the other one had gotten was a right course of action.

Hell I wish the schools around here did such things (they might now its been 2 years since I was in school after all) I was banned from the bathrooms here for being trans to the point where I missed class once before. So I had to sneak around principles and staff just to not get yelled at for taking a leak.


----------



## Mirby (Nov 11, 2011)

Luckily for me I only discovered my transness after high school, so I didn't have to worry about any of that stuff.

This is still not right though. I mean, when you gotta go you gotta go, and she shouldn't have been suspended for just trying to go and be who she was. 

As for her friend... honestly, I also think it's kinda stupid that he got the lighter end of the sentence. Really...


----------



## Gahars (Nov 11, 2011)

Crimson Ghoul said:


> injected11 said:
> 
> 
> > Gahars said:
> ...



I already commented on this.



Gahars said:


> There is a difference between "What tends to happen" (Often due to the environments the criminals are born into and/or the views of the general culture) and "Fundamental dispositions in the genders". Saying that men are born ignorant, prejudiced, and hateful beings while women are automatically understanding and insightful is a terribly misinformed view. It creates a stigma around being male while creating an excuse for terrible behavior, along with elevating women to an unfair, unreachable standard. Men are just as capable of compassion, and women are just as capable of hatred. It isn't just misinformed, it is demeaning to both genders.



Isn't reading fun?


----------



## Ace (Nov 11, 2011)

Chipping in with how they solved this in my school, years ago:

They literally tore off all gender signs on all bathrooms. We now share bathrooms with staff, girls and boys, transgender or not.

No one complains, and no one gets bullied over it. Though that may have to do with the constant teachings of rights and transparency in Swedish education.

If there ever was an issue, they take it with the principal and solve it.


----------



## smile72 (Nov 14, 2011)

I guess that could work Ace, but sadly not in America.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Nov 14, 2011)

s4mid4re said:


> *They go there to learn, and looking at another sex's sexual parts or being disgusted/annoyed by it, isn't part of being in school.*



The fuck kind of school did you go to where you were looking at other people's sexual organs?


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 14, 2011)

plasma dragon007 said:


> s4mid4re said:
> 
> 
> > *They go there to learn, and looking at another sex's sexual parts or being disgusted/annoyed by it, isn't part of being in school.*
> ...


I guess I should have worded it a little clearer:
"They go there to learn; looking at another sex's sexual parts or being disgusted/anoyed by it isn't part of being in school."

But yeah, mistake there.


----------



## _Chaz_ (Nov 14, 2011)

Is there a law or a school rule that distinctly designates which bathroom a transgender citizen is allowed to use?



Crimson Ghoul said:


> Thanks for having my back. When people argue with me on things I don't know much about I usually get very quiet


Maybe you should learn about something before you start saying things about it.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 15, 2011)

_Chaz_ said:


> *Is there a law or a school rule that distinctly designates which bathroom a transgender citizen is allowed to use?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it's the school and Transgender Law Center's policy (quote from article):





> Bathrooms are the single most common public place where the gender binary is strictly enforced, reports the Transgender Law Center. Since public restrooms are a place where people who are or are perceived to be gender-nonconforming are routinely harassed and often assaulted, the topic of bathroom safety and access is all too common conversation in schools these days. The center has been running a Safe Bathrooms Access Campaign and published the groundbreaking guide called Peeing in Peace.


Anyways, she was warned several times to use the staff bathroom, but couldn't follow directions, thus the suspension.


----------



## Devante (Nov 15, 2011)

It's a guy trying to use a girls' bathroom. Where's the confusion?


----------



## Pong20302000 (Nov 15, 2011)

lol this world is messed up, fussing over bathrooms

Unisex bathrooms

honestly like it would bother that many people in this day and age

my work has unisex bathrooms


----------



## Elrinth (Nov 15, 2011)

They should be suspended from pretending to be something which they aren't.


----------



## ZAFDeltaForce (Nov 15, 2011)

I understand the school is enforcing this for the safety of the TG students. But damn, a suspension is way over board.


----------



## KingdomBlade (Nov 15, 2011)

It's a good idea to make them use the staff bathrooms. Avoids problems, arguments, bullying and they can be in peace. It was wrong of her to break school rules; but a suspension is over the top; that doesn't mean however that making them use staff bathrooms wasn't a good idea. It's high school; it'd be fine to protest it in the real world but there, it's best to avoid problems.



Elrinth said:


> They should be suspended from pretending to be something which they aren't.



This on the other hand is just stupid. It really is.


----------



## deathking (Nov 15, 2011)

Pong20302000 said:


> lol this world is messed up, fussing over bathrooms
> 
> Unisex bathrooms
> 
> ...


if this happened at my high school it would just be a place for students to have sex during lunch breaks/ 2 students take a break during class from different classes and go at it
1 student gets pregnant at school parents rage
also the ages 13 to 18 could cause a load of trouble when 13 year olds are knocked up by 18 year olds


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 15, 2011)

Elrinth said:


> They should be suspended from pretending to be something which they aren't.



Yeah, they should be forced to pretend they aren't a transexual!

owait


----------



## Pong20302000 (Nov 15, 2011)

deathking said:


> Pong20302000 said:
> 
> 
> > lol this world is messed up, fussing over bathrooms
> ...



well then might as well enroll your school in the BR Program (congrats if you get the reference)

if people cant control themselves then thats there fault

have a form saying either making the parents agree its ok for this or there kid doesnt go to school

you can have a camera outside to check whos in at what times

not like they can stop people going in other toilets
i used to have female friends in school and just stand by the sinks in there bathroom
the stalls have doors so not like i could see anything plus we could chat at the same time
teachers didnt care as long as no one was smoking


----------



## Veho (Nov 15, 2011)

deathking said:


> > Unisex bathrooms
> 
> 
> if this happened at my high school it would just be a place for students to have sex during lunch breaks/ 2 students take a break during class from different classes and go at it


And you mean they don't do it in regular bathrooms? (And break rooms and storage rooms and locker rooms and broom closets and boiler rooms and large supply cabinets and under the bleachers and, you know, all over the place?)


----------



## Pong20302000 (Nov 15, 2011)

Veho said:


> deathking said:
> 
> 
> > > Unisex bathrooms
> ...



if i had a choice of place to have sex it wouldn't be the bathroom, not to mention awkward (not saying impossible)


----------



## Elrinth (Nov 15, 2011)

BlueStar said:


> Elrinth said:
> 
> 
> > They should be suspended from pretending to be something which they aren't.
> ...


 KingdomBlade failed at reading this


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 15, 2011)

BlueStar said:


> Elrinth said:
> 
> 
> > They should be suspended from pretending to be something which they aren't.
> ...



Not that I want to sound conservative, but they're only "transgender". The fact that they feel like "a girl trapped in a boy's body" or the other way around does not justify them using the "wrong" bathroom. Their sex is what it is, thus they should use the appropriate bathroom, sex and gender are not interchangable terms - how is that mind-boggling?

I can see the reasoning behind such a suspension, but I do believe it's too harsh of a punishment, a reprimand would've sufficed. Gender and sexuality issues are a personal matter, but the factual sex of a given person is one and only one, and by said sex you determine which bathroom you go to.

I for one would be disturbed if there was a lady standing beside my urinal - I don't give the slightest eF*** whether said lady is transgender, transsexual or even an elephant trapped in a human's body, I wish to pee in solitude, and if I were forced to pee with company then I'd feel more comfortable to pee infront of people with the same "assets". Obviously not for comparison reasons, but for the obvious reason of "shame" which is a natural human reaction.

That doesn't make me or anyone else who thinks like me any less sensible or tolerant.


----------



## Blood Fetish (Nov 15, 2011)

s4mid4re said:


> You have to blend into society, not make the society blend you in.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Frankly, you have a troubled world view.


----------



## BobTheJoeBob (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm still not entirely sure what transgender means. Just to make sure, is it someone who is a boy but thinks he should be a girl, or vice versa?


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 15, 2011)

BobTheJoeBob said:


> I'm still entirely sure what transgender means. Just to make sure, is it someone who is a boy but thinks he should be a girl, or vice versa?



That is exactly what it is. You have a given sex, but you associate yourself with the opposite gender. Obviously those things can be corrected by appropriate surgery procedures if you wish to undergo those.

Until then though, the way you identify yourself is irrelevant - you can't think only about yourself, that makes you an inconsciderate douche. If your "sex" is male, you go to the gents, if it is female, you go to the ladies room. Nobody asks you about your gender association.

@Blood Fetish How does the 19th ammendment have any relevance in this case? They're not trying to vote, they're trying to pee in the bathroom opposite to their sex.


----------



## Panzer Tacticer (Nov 15, 2011)

Ain't it fucking sad that this is so much about 'safety issues' and not about a girl being offended seeing a guy shaped girl in a ostensibly female restroom? (I'm assuming the average guy is not going to really complain about seeing a girl shaped person in the men's room). Frankly it seems tragic that our restrooms are deemed that dangerous.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 15, 2011)

Panzer Tacticer said:


> Ain't it fucking sad that this is so much about 'safety issues' and not about a girl being offended seeing a guy shaped girl in a ostensibly female restroom? (I'm assuming the average guy is not going to really complain about seeing a girl shaped person in the men's room). Frankly it seems tragic that our restrooms are deemed that dangerous.



I believe it was the other way around - a guy that looks feminene in the girls restroom and a girl that looked manly in the boys restroom, hence the commotion.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 15, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> Just install a single person bathroom in each classroom so no one has to stare at anyone's junk. Problem Solved.  Cookie please.




Seriously, Where is my fucking cookie?


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 15, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> Hyro-Sama said:
> 
> 
> > Just install a single person bathroom in each classroom so no one has to stare at anyone's junk. Problem Solved.  Cookie please.
> ...



That's architectually impossible. Provided there are 3 floors and, say, 80 classes on each, in the school building, you would need 80 downpipes and for higenical reasons, 240 cold and 240 hot water pipe connections or alternatively 240 cold water pipe connections and 240 small water heaters.

UNLESS you connect smaller sewege pipes into a larger, central downpipe, but you'd still end up with more restrooms than a hotel.

This building would literally have no walls left.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 15, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> Hyro-Sama said:
> 
> 
> > Hyro-Sama said:
> ...



And smell like shit. Let's not forget that. Moreover, What's wrong with a steampunk looking school with pipes for walls. That would actually be awesome IMO.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 15, 2011)

Fixed a slight miscalculation on my end in the previous post. It's not really a matter of "steampunk", the problem here is that as you mentioned yourself, it'd smell, but more importantly "it wouldn't stand sound and in one piece for long" due to lack of structural integrity.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 15, 2011)

Then just big brother the school and put cameras everywhere. YES. Even in the bathrooms.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 15, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> Then just big brother the school and put cameras everywhere. YES. Even in the bathrooms.


----------



## Devante (Nov 15, 2011)

Blood Fetish said:


> s4mid4re said:
> 
> 
> > You have to blend into society, not make the society blend you in.
> ...




Frankly, this is where America started going wrong. '


----------



## Valwin (Nov 15, 2011)

if it use to be male it need to use the male bathroom


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 15, 2011)

Devante said:


> Blood Fetish said:
> 
> 
> > s4mid4re said:
> ...



_Yer right, them women should go back to the kitchen and make me a goddamn sandwich, and them faggits' should go to Holland, they are not welcome in these parts!_


----------



## smile72 (Nov 15, 2011)

Valwin need learn correct grammar.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Nov 15, 2011)

s4mid4re said:


> > Malikowski told reporters, “There’s not staff bathrooms all over the school, so when you really got to pee, you got to pee.”
> 
> 
> This is the most beautiful grammar I've seen in my life.
> ...



When you're one-sided like that? It makes sense. However, I seriously doubt it's for HER safety. It's flat out wrong, even if they were given explicit access to the staff bathrooms. Keeping them out of the student (which THEY ARE, mind you) bathrooms is ridiculous.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 15, 2011)

People keep forgetting that everyone doesn't look or feel what their chromosomes state. That not everyone can afford nor that it even safe to do so.
Why are you looking at other people why using the bathroom? Staring at people and their junks should make
you feel shamed regardless.


Plus sense there are cases where a boy can have girl parts or vi versa, why would they use a toilet that not easily accessible to them.
Other words why would a transsexual girl use a toilet that they are most likely going have much difficulty than using the stalls.

(iirc this is to the people who are saying this.) Saying that unisex bathrooms will smell doesn't make any sense, since any bathroom will smell if you don't clean it.

A unisex bathroom doesn't need to be in every classroom.


----------



## Canonbeat234 (Nov 15, 2011)

Well well well, equality rights strikes again. Now the trans students want to be play it 'safe' like there's no consequence, well the Board of Education shall say otherwise.

I don't have no sympathy for this at all, if you want to play the 'swap' card then by all means do it afterschool not during school.


----------



## Crimson Ghoul (Nov 15, 2011)

Just for an ignorant laugh.. Instead of the man and woman signs they should just put a penis or a vagina on the door


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 15, 2011)

Canonbeat234 said:


> Well well well, equality rights strikes again. Now the trans students want to be play it 'safe' like there's no consequence, well the Board of Education shall say otherwise.
> 
> I don't have no sympathy for this at all, if you want to play the 'swap' card then by all means do it afterschool not during school.



True transsexuals is something of their life and not some "swapping" game. Stop being so ignorant closed-minded.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 15, 2011)

Mchief298 said:


> s4mid4re said:
> 
> 
> > > Malikowski told reporters, “There’s not staff bathrooms all over the school, so when you really got to pee, you got to pee.”
> ...


]I think I have made it very clear that being transsexual doesn't mean that a male is female, vise-versa. They just feel like they _should_. Now, do you think it is morally correct for a female to enter a male restroom, vise-versa, just because they think they're in the 'wrong' restroom? I presume you are male: would you feel comforted, peeing while a girl is in the male restroom (oh yes I would )? Even worse: would you feel comforted that a guy is using the female _public_ restroom, while your girlfriend or female friend is also using the restroom? How would parents feel about their son/daughter going into a restroom with somebody of opposite gender? It is also an undeniable fact that transsexual people are a bully's target, and the school and TLC is trying to keep it to the minimum.


They have proposed the best solution to prevent any conflict: make them use the staff restroom.




KingVamp said:


> People keep forgetting that everyone doesn't look or feel what their chromosomes state. That not everyone can afford nor that it even safe to do so.
> Why are you looking at other people why using the bathroom? Staring at people and their junks should make
> you feel shamed regardless.
> *Quite true, but the point is that it isn't secure nor morally correct for a person to be using a restroom for the opposite sex.*
> ...


----------



## Canonbeat234 (Nov 16, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> Canonbeat234 said:
> 
> 
> > Well well well, equality rights strikes again. Now the trans students want to be play it 'safe' like there's no consequence, well the Board of Education shall say otherwise.
> ...



Oh yes, I'm sure their life isn't so warp to the point they can't figure out what are the rules inside the school. How many times have a guy 'accidentally' went inside the girl's room and got warned about it? It's the same thing with these students; come on now the officials have given them an alternative to use the staff restroom. No, those stuck-up students want to be 'accepted' inside a society where their transgender matters. It DOES matter if you was born like that with a freakin' penis or vagina; later on in life if they want to keep that act up then fine by me.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 16, 2011)

I'm amazed homophobes and transphobes are so determined that an effeminate, female identifying and probably male-attracted pupil absolutely must use the male bathroom with them and stand alongside them when you've both got your junk out.

But whatever floats your boat.


----------



## Mirby (Nov 16, 2011)

I'm amazed at the levels of hate in this thread.

It's quite simple. She identifies as female, thus she used the female's bathroom. There's really not much more to it than that. Overcomplicating things or saying that just because she has a penis means she absolutely must use the men's restroom is just.... wrong. Do you think she really wants to deal with that? I'm pretty sure she probably doesn't even want that reminder of her incorrect birth gender every time she has to go to the bathroom. Or every time she takes a shower. Or any time she may have to see it at all.

The point is, she used the restroom she felt she should be able to, and that's where all the trouble began.

It reminds me of the recent story about a TG woman in Tennessee who, due to the state's strict laws, is still legally male. She went to get it changed at the DMV, and they said no. So, realizing that she was still "he" in the eyes of the state, decided to go topless. Why not? The state views her as male, so why couldn't she go topless like all the fat-ass trailer-trash guys in the state.

The state thought otherwise and she was arrested for indecent exposure.

They arrested someone who, as far as they were concerned, was male for something that only a female could get arrested for (exposing her breasts), and now she may have to register as a sex offender all because of bigoted people and outdated laws.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

Mirby said:


> I'm amazed at the levels of hate in this thread. It's quite simple. She identifies as female, thus she used the female's bathroom.



That much is correct, however how she identifies herself is not the issue here. A school is a public place where certain rules apply. Males go to the gents restroom, females to the ladies room. It is a scientific fact that despite her own identity she is a man from a biological standpoint. Same applies to the girl that happens to feel like a man.



> There's really not much more to it than that. Overcomplicating things or saying that just because she has a penis means she absolutely must use the men's restroom is just.... wrong.



No, it is not, and I will elaborate on that in a moment.



> Do you think she really wants to deal with that?



School as such is a public place, the principal needs to think of the good of the collective rather than the good of a single unit. Exceptions should not be made.



> I'm pretty sure she probably doesn't even want that reminder of her incorrect birth gender every time she has to go to the bathroom.



Incorrect sex, perhaps. Incorrect gender? Not so much. Her gender is female, however she was born with the male sex, thus she is classified as male and as such should use the restroom designated for the males according to the rules board. Nobody's asking about her psychological state or her identity - ladies want to pee only in the company of other ladies, gents pee only in the company of other gents.



> Or every time she takes a shower. Or any time she may have to see it at all.



Restroom does not equal bathroom, but in that case it would be exactly the same. In fact, it would be stressed even more strongly. A person of the male sex should not bathe in the company of female students, and vice-versa. We're not thinking about 1 person here, we are thinking about an entire group of students.

I see what you are trying to say, and your approach is very liberal, but incorrect. You are mixing gender with sex and apply too many individualistic factors to the equation. The student body is a collective of students, and the rules apply to the collective and in favour of the collective, not particular units. The rules are fair, no rulesboard will ever be perfect, but its purpose is to apply to the majority of students.

Excuse me, but that "theoretical boys shower room" would consist of one person of the female sex and circa 29 boners if your "rules" were applied, this is unacceptable and you have to accept that as a fact.



> The point is, she used the restroom she felt she should be able to, and that's where all the trouble began.



Yet again you apply feelings to legislature. You're not supposed to do "what you feel is right", you're supposed to follow the rules. It was not the first time, she has been forwarned, so was he. The rules were broken deliberatelly.



> It reminds me of the recent story about a TG woman in Tennessee who, due to the state's strict laws, is still legally male.



Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is a set of fake breasts and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.

If I tattoo my body black, I may look like a black person, but that doesn't make me legally black - I will remain caucasian. In other words, she now "looks like a woman", but she isn't one and she will never be. Adjustments like this are only made to enhance self-confidence and achieve comfort with ones own body. They're cosmetical.



> She went to get it changed at the DMV, and they said no. So, realizing that she was still "he" in the eyes of the state, decided to go topless. Why not? The state views her as male, so why couldn't she go topless like all the fat-ass trailer-trash guys in the state.



She's not biologically female, but that does not mean that she is not bound by common laws of human decency. She looks like a woman, and that is enough to constitute indecensy in public places.



> The state thought otherwise and she was arrested for indecent exposure.



That is fair. In fact, I would also arrest the fatsos. I'll even expand it to skinny males - I do not wish to be forced to stare at someone's nipples and general chest area.



> They arrested someone who, as far as they were concerned, was male for something that only a female could get arrested for (exposing her breasts)



I assure you that this is not true. Breasts are breasts, you don't have to be female to have them. If the state laws specify that the breasts have to belong to a "female" then she can sucessfuly appeal, as she is not one.



> and now she may have to register as a sex offender all because of bigoted people and outdated laws.



She's not registered as a sex offender because she did not commit a sexually-based offence onto anyone. Indecent exposure is a minor offence, not a federal crime.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 16, 2011)

Um, since you want to talk about this issue from a "biological standpoint", I'd like to remind you that sex is not a binary property in biology, either; i.e. "female" and "male" are not the only possible outcomes.

I'd also like to remind everyone that laws and rules are social constructs that can be, have been, and will be, arbitrarily made up and changed at will.

I have absolutely no problem with sharing washrooms with other people, and I think unisex public washrooms should be the way to go; that way it's accessible to everyone.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

leic7 said:


> Um, since you want to talk about this issue from a "biological standpoint", I'd like to remind you that sex is not a binary property in biology, either; i.e. "female" and "male" are not the only possible outcomes.



Yeppers. There is also hermaphrodite, which is an abnormality. These are divided (very generally, read more here: http://translate.goo...nie.htm&act=url ) into "Supermen" (no pun intended), "Superwomen" and simply people with both sets that may or may not be corrected after Gender has been established. Even so, they express either of the sexes more radically than the other, but let's put them in one basket for now.



> I'd also like to remind everyone that laws and rules are social constructs that can be, have been, and will be, arbitrarily made up and changed at will.



That is, when such a change is necessary, and here it is not. Unless 20% of the nation suddenly decides to become trans. Nobody's going to change school rules for two individuals.



> I have absolutely no problem with sharing washrooms with other people, and I think unisex public washrooms should be the way to go; that way it's accessible to everyone.



Not a bad idea at all. As of now though, we have two types of bathrooms, it is unlikely to change due to the fact that only a fraction of the society is herm or transgender/sexual and unless that group of people actually openly demands it and gains sufficient support, no such thing will exist.

The 1% cannot rule over the 99%. Deal wit'it.


----------



## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Nov 16, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is a set of fake breasts and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.


In my opinion, you are far too stringent on the differences between males and females. From the way you talk about it here, it is almost as if males and females have nothing in common, that they come from different planets or are representative of different species. Your case boils down to biology, which is inherently misleading. Since when did the scientific community come to a consensus that gender is only determined by biology? There is a distinct social aspect to this issue. A biological impetus to conform to our genitals occurs in puberty, but this impetus is not imperative, as the case of transsexuals clearly demonstrates. I think you should do more research in this area.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is a set of fake breasts and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.
> ...



For the love of God, Gender and Sex are two different things - sex is determined nearly entirely by biology while gender is a state of mind. How many times should I explain that before people stop accusing me of being sexist and close-minded?



> The most basic sexual system is one in which all organisms are hermaphrodites, producing both male and female gametes—this is true of some animals (e.g. snails) and the majority of flowering plants.
> 
> In many cases, however, specialization of sex has evolved such that some organisms produce only male or only female gametes. The biological cause for an organism developing into one sex or the other is called sex determination. In the majority of species with sex specialization organisms are either male (producing only male gametes) or female (producing only female gametes).
> 
> Exceptions are common—for example, in the roundworm C. elegans the two sexes are hermaphrodite and male (a system called androdioecy). Sometimes an organism's development is intermediate between male and female, a condition called intersex. Sometimes intersex individuals are called "hermaphrodite"; but, unlike biological hermaphrodites, intersex individuals are unusual cases and are not typically fertile in both male and female aspects.





> Gender is a range of characteristics used to distinguish between males and females, particularly in the cases of men and women and the masculine and feminine attributes assigned to them. Depending on the context, the discriminating characteristics vary from sex to social role to gender identity. Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955.(...) Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender.


----------



## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Nov 16, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> For the love of god, Gender and Sex are two different things - sex is determined nearly entirely by biology while gender is a state of mind. How many times should I explain that before people stop accusing me of being sexist and close-minded?


I agree that they are different, but they are hardly mutually exclusive. There is a social aspect to this problem that you are constantly ignoring. That is all I wanted to point out.

Edit: Incidentally, you shouldn't use Dr. Money as a reference. He went to the opposite extreme and claimed that gender and sex are only social constructs, and ended up imposing sex changes that were otherwise not needed. A posthumous examination of his work has revealed numerous distortions and falsifications.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > For the love of god, Gender and Sex are two different things - sex is determined nearly entirely by biology while gender is a state of mind. How many times should I explain that before people stop accusing me of being sexist and close-minded?
> ...



This is why I'm only using his definition of gender as a refference point. There are numerous definitions of the terms - that's a subject for Culture Studies. What I am trying to point out is that sex is downright biological while gender is determined by the psyche. Just because some of his definitions were found incorrect does not mean that his entire set of works is wrong.

Out of numerous "schools" of defining those terms I choose to treat them as exclusive, seeing that in some cases the factual sex of a given person does not influence their gender identity. Social interactions and personal experiences play a far more important role in identity discovery than a dangling piece of flesh, or in the lack of it.


----------



## junkerde (Nov 16, 2011)

she was transylvanian, no vampires allowed.


----------



## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Nov 16, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> This is why I'm only using his definition of gender as a refference point. There are numerous definitions of the terms - that's a subject for Culture Studies. What I am trying to point out is that sex is downright biological while gender is determined by the psyche.


The fact still remains that you are using a _biological_ argument to bolster a regressive _social_ tendency. You cannot have it both ways. You are relying on strictly biological grounds, and this is completely inadequate as to how to deal with the overall social problem confronting gays and transgenders. Your line of logic, carried to its ultimate conclusion, is biological discrimination at best and Social Darwinism at worst.


Foxi4 said:


> Social interactions and personal experiences play a far more important role in identity discovery than a dangling piece of flesh, or in the lack of it.


Then why are you saying that a transgender should stick to the bathroom that is biologically "assigned" to them? That "dangling piece of flesh" was, up until now, the centerpiece of your argument. You are all over the place.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > This is why I'm only using his definition of gender as a refference point. There are numerous definitions of the terms - that's a subject for Culture Studies. What I am trying to point out is that sex is downright biological while gender is determined by the psyche.
> ...



Gender determination is one thing, factual sex of a given person - another. As stated earlier, I am not thinking about the singled out transsexual student. I'm thinking about all the girls who do not wish to share the bathroom with a boy and all the boys who do not wish to share the bathroom with a girl, for whatever reasons. Majority sets the standards. I'm far from being all over the place, you're just misreading my arguments.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 16, 2011)

It's called a penis. Saying "A dangling piece of flesh" is unnecessary. We aren't a bunch of 12 year olds.

@Foxi4: I saw that pic you posted and that was nasty.


----------



## thieves like us (Nov 16, 2011)

how rich are the families of these kids that can afford them operations during their teen years? something tells me that maybe they should be home-schooled


----------



## JoostinOnline (Nov 16, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> It's called a penis. Saying "A dangling piece of flesh" is unnecessary. We aren't a bunch of 12 year olds.
> 
> @Foxi4: I saw that pic you posted and that was nasty.


I should report you for saying the "P" word.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

I used the term "dangling piece of flesh" because it could mean a penis, the breasts or the vulva, lol.


----------



## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Nov 16, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
> 
> 
> > Foxi4 said:
> ...


If the article is anything to go by, it was the school administration that made the decision to suspend the person in question. There was no majority to speak of.

And if I'm misreading your arguments, please explain why. I don't think my interpretation is completely wrong. You are advocating that social issues be reduced to biology. Again, this approach is prejudicial and inadequate. You are placing the penis and the vagina as opposites of each other, and completely ignoring the social aspect of the problem. _In essence, your conclusions are biologically discriminatory._ One might as well say that the negligible "biological" difference between races could serve as a basis for offering each race a bathroom of their own.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:


> If the article is anything to go by, it was the school administration that made the decision to suspend the person in question. There was no majority to speak of.
> 
> And if I'm misreading your arguments, please explain why. I don't think my interpretation is completely wrong. You are advocating that social issues be reduced to biology. Again, this approach is prejudicial and inadequate. You are placing the penis and the vagina as opposites of each other, and completely ignoring the social aspect of the problem. _In essence, your conclusions are biologically discriminatory._ One might as well say that the negligible "biological" difference between races could serve as a basis for offering each race a bathroom of their own.



There is nothing to be inheritently ashamed of as far as race is concerned - there are no biological differences between a black, caucasian or asian person of the same sex other then the levels of skin pigmentation. Females and males on the other hand have different body constructs, and as human beings we are exposed to the feeling of "shame" when facing the other construct in a situation we would not expect to see it. Call me up on this one if I'm wrong, but it's *frowned upon* to flash male genitalia infront of female audiences in public places and vice-versa. THIS is my argument. It's not discrimination, it's following simple rules of common decency that the society put upon itself on its own.

The suspension was issued by the appropriate school administration unit and according to the school rules it was justified.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 16, 2011)

I fail to understand how a transgendered person using either washroom could be interpreted as "indecent", though. If the person has a penis and pees at the urinals, is that indecent? Is it indecent if they pee inside a stall behind a closed door?

And I don't think an inequality is any less of one just because the people affected by it are not the majority. The minority matters, too. If a school has one student who's in a wheelchair who can't access the regular washrooms, do I think we should make school-wide accommodations for this student so they could have equal access to facilities just like everyone else? Absolutely.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 16, 2011)

A transgender male or female may access their respective bathrooms without any problems whatsoever, a handicapped person may not due to physical inability. Hyyyuge difference between "Can't" and "Won't, because I feel like it".

In the case of a handicapped person, you are accomodating his/her basic need - he or she needs means of transportation to use the constitutional right to study, and while at it, satisfy basic phisiological needs.

In the case of a transgender person, you are satisfying a whim. A change is simply not necessary.


----------



## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Nov 17, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> There is nothing to be inheritently ashamed of as far as race is concerned - there are no biological differences between a black, caucasian or asian person of the same sex other then the levels of skin pigmentation. Females and males on the other hand have different body constructs, and as human beings we are exposed to the feeling of "shame" when facing the other construct in a situation we would not expect to see it. Call me up on this one if I'm wrong, but it's *frowned upon* to flash male genitalia infront of female audiences in public places and vice-versa. THIS is my argument. It's not discrimination, it's following simple rules of common decency that the society put upon itself on its own.
> 
> The suspension was issued by the appropriate school administration unit and according to the school rules it was justified.


I'm going to offer my final thoughts on this subject, and then I won't be able to take part in the thread any more.

The underlying assumption that you are pushing is that the LBGT community is a special interest group that is looking to extort special privileges for themselves. Insofar as they are a social minority that is frequently discriminated against in the US, this is ridiculous. While they have advocacy groups of their own, they have had no significant impact upon the US as a whole. Laws have been changed, but the discrimination stays the same (Colorado, where this takes place, passed a transgender law two years ago that was supposed to do away with the gender binary, even in restrooms). The only difference is that you are arguing with "science" instead of bible verses. The LBGT community deserves to be protected and accommodated at all costs.

Moving on to your main argument. It is, in many respects, discriminatory and fallacious. You state that racial differences are "nothing to be ashamed about" (which is a rather strange thing to say to absolve racial differences) and that this "shame" you speak of manifests itself whenever members of the opposite sex see each other in the nude. It is entirely true that the American ruling class has confined nudity and sex to a dark corner that should only be unearthed in respect to supermodels. But nudity is not inherently negative, and "shame" is not an absolute, it is merely a ruling moral in relation to US capitalism. Shame in nudity, does not stretch to every nation on the planet, nor should it. You however, uncritically present it as a moral imperative that is dictated by "common decency". Common decency according to whom? You? To the polluting diatribes of the corporate media and bourgeoisie, which relegates sex to the stuffy household and must be monogamous? I believe that you simply borrowed this "shame" concept from the bible's Genesis. I'm sure that you've heard of the story: When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they realized that they were naked, and they were both embarrassed. Your argument is entirely in line with the religious concept of "Original Sin", an outdated belief that is more than 2000 years old. I'm sure you understand that the bible barely has anything useful to say about human nature. If you actually bothered to look at different societies around the world, specifically in Africa or certain beaches in France, you would find that shame in nudity are merely endemic. It is not epidemic.

Lastly, transgenderism cannot be dismissed as a "whim". This is probably the most damning thing you have said. But what is even worse is how you compare transgenders using the women's bathroom to a male streaking or exposing himself in public. Your analogy is so inappropriate that there's really nothing more for me to say about it, except that yet again it is a product of outdated religious morality. More specifically, it is _ruling class morality_, which, whether you admit it or not, refuses to look any deeper in this issue than biology; It is not as though you are alone in holding to this, but you must know that scientifically and socially it is rather primitive. Transgenders are not bound to their genitals; the fact that they identify themselves as male or female is enough. The traditional gender binary for bathrooms must be scrapped and transcended to accommodate transgenders. This would mean, in the long run, public bathrooms that do not separate the sexes or make them feel as though they are both of a different species.

People's needs have evolved, and are evolving, and they are beginning to find real expression in the civil sphere, both socially and politically. It is my opinion that if you continue to tow the line with such reductive and bigoted views, you will end up being left behind.


----------



## s4mid4re (Nov 17, 2011)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > There is nothing to be inheritently ashamed of as far as race is concerned - there are no biological differences between a black, caucasian or asian person of the same sex other then the levels of skin pigmentation. Females and males on the other hand have different body constructs, and as human beings we are exposed to the feeling of "shame" when facing the other construct in a situation we would not expect to see it. Call me up on this one if I'm wrong, but it's *frowned upon* to flash male genitalia infront of female audiences in public places and vice-versa. THIS is my argument. It's not discrimination, it's following simple rules of common decency that the society put upon itself on its own.
> ...


----------



## Fishaman P (Nov 17, 2011)

There's one critical point that the article failed to address:

Did the trans students have their reproductive organs changed?

I can see why school officials would be concerned if genital type A's went into a Type B restroom, but that still is not grounds for a warning, let alone suspension.


----------



## Panzer Tacticer (Nov 17, 2011)

Here's another thought. I have been a janitor, it involved me walking in and out of both genders washrooms. I know precisely what the inside of a female restroom looks like.

They don't have urinals, girls pee sitting down (even though it is known with some skill a girl COULD stand in front of a urinal and pee into it, they are just not really trained to do so from youth).

So would it not be just an easier process, to make ALL restrooms places with ONLY booths where only ONE person was going to be in it removing bodily wastes and temporarily partially undressed on the process. It's not like a male couldn't just pee like they do at home eh. I don't have a urinal in my home eh. We could just make it plain, PUT YOUR DAMNED CLOTHES ON BEFORE EXITING THE STALL!!. No doing anything that permits partial nudity whatsoever outside of the stall. No fixing you clothing, no changing into some other outfit nothing in the way of cleaning that involves partial clothing removal at all outside of the stall.

I wouldn't have a problem taking a piss in a stall by myself, knowing there was a female sitting taking a piss right beside me . They could easily make the stalls such that there is no way to look over the sides. Just make the sides floor to ceiling. Not rocket science eh. I would not have any issues washing my hands next to a woman washing her hands. And that is all a restroom should be, people coming in taking a piss and then washing their hands and leaving.

It really sickens me knowing that soooo many of the problems society makes such a fucking big case over, have such easy solutiuons, but ooooooh no, it's asking too much for anyone in society to use their fucking head.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 17, 2011)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:


> *(...most of this particular post are "words words words", nothing really new or what I haven't commented on already. If you disagree with what the majority treats as the standard then it's your problem... I'm sorry, I really like discussing interesting political matters with you on various occasions, but whenever you start throwing "religion" or "the burguoise" into the equation, I already know that we're no longer chatting on the "serious" front. These have nothing to do whatsoever with the matter at hand. Moreover, why would I even want to discuss the issue universally when I was given the context? It's a school based in the U.S and their students need to conform to social "rules" that are commonly accepted there. I'm not interested in what is conscidered shameful on Mars, I'm thinking "a school in the U.S". I'm getting the feeling that you purposely misinterpret what I'm saying in an attempt to make me look like a redneck, and I must say I do not appreciate that. For example that part about race, where you emphasized that my phrasing is "a bit of a weird way to say it", as if you tried to point and say "he may be racist". I'm not. There is nothing to be ashamed of in either race, we are all equal and there's nothing weird in the sentence whatsoever unless you WANT to read it in a weird fashion. Forgive me if that was not your intention, that's just how I feel after being forced to explain every little tidbit. In the end, there was just this one sentence I felt like it's worth to comment on*
> 
> 
> Lastly, transgenderism cannot be dismissed as a "whim".


When in my entire argument have I said it is a whim? You're twisting my words, that's not nice. What I said was that demanding to use a specific bathroom that was *not made for you* and its explicitly stated by the administration body BEFORE you were suspended is. It would not be any more difficult to use the one that was prepared for your sex, nor would it be physically painful or otherwise degrading. In school, there are students and there's the administration - the administration supervises over the students and the students conform. If they believe there needs to be change, there are different ways to do so other than blatantly breaking the rules. You can't pick and choose rules you like, you can't ignore clear instructions from your supervisors.

This teaches these young people that if they do not conform at work and ignore what their bosses tell them - they loose. Plain and simple.


> People's needs have evolved, and are evolving, and they are beginning to find real expression in the civil sphere, both socially and politically. It is my opinion that if you continue to tow the line with such reductive and bigoted views, you will end up being left behind.


Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is the only thing taken into conscideration when building a rules board. As long as all the lower needs are satisfied AND the school satisfies the higher need of learning and education, everything's in the clear.

*The only "special needs" a school has to satisfy are needs directly related to education.* A student on a wheelchair? Gotta satisfy his needs - he has the right to move around the school and study. A blind student? Gotta find him books written in braile or find a school that will specifically satisfy his needs and prepare a transfer. Transgender student...? Uhm... They can* access necessary facilities** and study* just fine... *right?*



> *I now publicly identify myself as a female, so I should be obliged to use the female public restroom without any consequences. I'm going to go into the female restroom, whip out my junk, and start peeing along the girls in the female restroom. They are totally comforted about my existence in the female restroom and are going to tell their parents about me. Their parents are assured that the female public restroom is a secure place for their beautiful daughters to be using. You see how fucked up your argument is?*



Thank you, this explains pretty much everything I was trying to convey. I was trying to avoid ridiculing the other side of it though.



> make ALL restrooms places with ONLY booths where only ONE person was going to be in it removing bodily wastes and temporarily partially undressed on the process. It's not like a male couldn't just pee like they do at home eh. I don't have a urinal in my home eh. We could just make it plain, PUT YOUR DAMNED CLOTHES ON BEFORE EXITING THE STALL!!. No doing anything that permits partial nudity whatsoever outside of the stall. No fixing you clothing, no changing into some other outfit nothing in the way of cleaning that involves partial clothing removal at all outside of the stall.



That is not the point - nobody's standing right under your balls at the urinals either. Nobody stares at you - that would be creepy. The point is that the concept of sharing a private space like this and performing bodily functions of that kind while infront of the opposite sex will be uncomfortable regardless whether or not they see you.



> There's one critical point that the article failed to address:
> 
> Did the trans students have their reproductive organs changed?
> 
> I can see why school officials would be concerned if genital type A's went into a Type B restroom, but that still is not grounds for a warning, let alone suspension.



Nobody would ever have any problems if that were the case. In fact, nobody would probably notice the difference, which is the basis of this entire "argument", AKA, "is your sex in your pants or in your head".


I'm really tired with explaining every little bit of my argument and getting caught by my tongue - I'm sorry, but as long as you pee with what you have in your pants, not what you have in your head, it's very much in your pants.

Peeing is a bodily function, and as such should be classified with bodily terminology and reffer to it. Her gender might be male, his gender might be female, but at the end of the day they cannot yet "decieve" others sucessfuly enough not to cause a "stir" in the student body. *My one and only argument was that bathrooms, restrooms and changing rooms are divided into ones dedicated to males and females in regard of sex, not anyone's personally identified gender. *Attempting to "make of it more than it really is" is sort of pointless - that's simply my point of view with which anyone can agree or disagree, but at the end of the day it will be the "majority" of a given society that will set that standard, and if it so happens that they will at some point reffer to gender, then I will gladly conform but that is not the state of matters as of now.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 17, 2011)

The thought of "conforming" to rules without questioning horrifies me. Whatever educational system that instills this kind of mentality in its pupils needs a serious reevaluation of its practices. Perhaps I did come from a privileged education system where critical thinking is valued, as one of the main things I'll always remember from schools is this phrase, "Question everything." If a student feels that a certain rule imposed by the school is unjust? By all means, challenge it. Doing what you're told without questioning is not something a school of all places should encourage.

Constitutional rights are honoured in schools too, I would hope. And it's not just the ones directly related to education, but other constitutional rights should apply as well.

Majority rule is not the be-all and end-all in western democracies, it's often not adequate, especially when it comes to minority rights. That's why our societies have attempted to have other measures in place, such as the judicial system, that's supposed to be independent of popular opinions. But anyway, in our society, it's rarely the majority who sets the standards...



s4mid4re said:


> YES, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! I now publicly identify myself as a female, so I should be obliged to use the female public restroom without any consequences. I'm going to go into the female restroom, whip out my junk, and start peeing along the girls in the female restroom. They are totally comforted about my existence in the female restroom and are going to tell their parents about me. Their parents are assured that the female public restroom is a secure place for their beautiful daughters to be using. You see how fucked up your argument is?


I don't see the problem with you peeing with the other girls in the women's room if you identify as a girl yourself. What's the problem? How exactly would your presence in there make it a less secure place? And what in the world do you mean "it's America"? America has a single opinion on this issue? America can never change?



Foxi4 said:


> A transgender male or female may access their respective bathrooms without any problems whatsoever, a handicapped person may not due to physical inability. Hyyyuge difference between "Can't" and "Won't, because I feel like it". In the case of a handicapped person, you are accomodating his/her basic need - he or she needs means of transportation to use the constitutional right to study, and while at it, satisfy basic phisiological needs. In the case of a transgender person, you are satisfying a whim. A change is simply not necessary.


I'm confused. Is this a sex issue or a gender issue? If we were to reduced this to biology alone, then having only "female" or "male" washrooms would effectively leave those who are neither biologically without any place to go. This is the same situation as the person with a wheelchair - I'm of the opinion that as long as there's one person affected by this, changes are necessary.

But I of course don't think the washroom issue is only a biological sex issue. Gender plays a huge role in it, otherwise all these stories wouldn't have happened. The people who enter a different sex washroom obviously didn't get the memo about "washrooms being strictly about sex, and nothing about gender"; neither did I. I suspect a lot of those who harass androgynous looking folks in washrooms also didn't review it. What I believe to be the main issue is some people just can't deal with the fact that not everyone conforms to the gender binary, the washroom incident is just a pretext for them to freak out over it. As long as these people still exist within the school, going to the washroom can be a stressful experience for anyone who doesn't look like a stereotypical boy/girl, no matter if they possess the anatomically correct apparatus. Hence, this has become an accessibility issue. The school needs to better educate its student body; it may offer the staff washrooms for the time being, but *limiting* a student's access to only the staff washrooms is definitely not the way to go.



Foxi4 said:


> The point is that the concept of sharing a private space like this and performing bodily functions of that kind while infront of the opposite sex will be uncomfortable regardless whether or not they see you.


What? How far does this private space extend, exactly? The stalls in washrooms have doors, you know? Or should the entire floor be evacuated when someone performs their bodily functions of that kind so as not to make them feel uncomfortable?


----------



## VashTS (Nov 17, 2011)

VashTS said:


> why are they upset about this? they chose this life style, you gotta expect the consequences.
> 
> the world is NOT going to bend to you, and if you expect that...fuck you then. deal with it or GTFO. seriously im in rage mode right now, that shit angers me and i deal with it on a daily basis.
> 
> ...





smile72 said:


> Fine Vash you're a douchebag bigot, science disagrees with you as transgender brains are similar to the opposite sex. Don't troll my thread, trying to start a flame war. Go and troll some other threads.



not meaning to troll your thread dude. just stating the truth. yes "transgender" is like a tattoo (until surgery anyway) its cosmetic and while you can wish all you want the answer in reality is still the same. really even post op t******** should still have to use the proper restroom.

i believe im a cat on the outside. so when a vet refuses to see me i get really upset.  i also believe im a fish so i get angry when physics and biology won't let me live in the water  that sounds silly, but this is what this articles sounds like. its garbage.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, belief is a powerful thing, I wouldn't underestimate it. Some people's illness could even be cured when the patients believed they'd taken the drugs...


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 17, 2011)

leic7 said:


> The thought of "conforming" to rules without questioning horrifies me. Whatever educational system that instills this kind of mentality in its pupils needs a serious reevaluation of its practices. Perhaps I did come from a privileged education system where critical thinking is valued, as one of the main things I'll always remember from schools is this phrase, "Question everything." If a student feels that a certain rule imposed by the school is unjust? By all means, challenge it. Doing what you're told without questioning is not something a school of all places should encourage.



Then your priviledged educational system probably taught you that rules are to be obeyed. You can question them, you can work towards changing them, but while said rules are in power, you're supposed to obey them, not break them in spite of better judgement. There were numerous ways of solving this situation and the girl in question solved it the worst way possible - via not-give-a-sh*t-ism, and she got "rewarded" for it approprietly. Creative Thinking and Stupid Conduct are two vastly different ideas.

People of "neither" sex, as discussed earlier, develop a deeper connection to one of the sexes and undergo appropriet surgery for their own good and quite early on, to prevent hormonal imbalance and improper growth. Those who don't end up in medical textbooks and frankly, toilets are their least concern. You would know that if you read my previous posts, which you have not. You will also find answers to many questions you posed in your post.

I'm officially jetissoning myself out of this discussion - I've written my opinion, there is not much more to be said. Everybody has their own opinion on the matter anyways, I see no further reason to justify mine.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 17, 2011)

If I remember correctly, civil disobedience was not something to be frown upon. However, punishing someone unjustly was. In my opinion, some rules are just asking to get challenged and broken. e.g. no students are allowed to bring their same sex partners to prom, but opposite sex partners are okay... etc. etc. I don't know what kind of social climate they have where this incident took place, but if something similar was to happen around my part of the world, the school would be in trouble, as the student had done nothing wrong.

And you're the one who wanted to reduce this entire thing to biology, but since a binary system clearly isn't adequate for biology, now you're trying to redefine biology in order to fit that narrow system? Or are you trying to imply those who don't fit in the binary system don't count? I know someone who's intersex, who also happens to look quite androgynous; frankly, going to public washrooms is far from a pleasant experience for them.

lol I kept asking for confirmations about what's been said because your statements seem so irrational that I found it difficult to believe anyone actually said them.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 17, 2011)

> Then your priviledged educational system probably taught you that rules are to be obeyed. You can question them, you can work towards changing them, but while said rules are in power, you're supposed to obey them, not break them in spite of better judgement.



Yeah, Rosa Parks, what a dick.


----------



## ShinyJellicent12 (Nov 17, 2011)

WTH who does that? Transgender people are people too! Especially students! WTH


----------



## Panzer Tacticer (Nov 18, 2011)

"That is not the point - nobody's standing right under your balls at the urinals either. Nobody stares at you - that would be creepy. The point is that the concept of sharing a private space like this and performing bodily functions of that kind while infront of the opposite sex will be uncomfortable regardless whether or not they see you."

The point is, there is a limit to privacy. Most guys know of the rules of urinal, that in a room with 3 urinals, and 2 men needing to piss, you always use the one further from the other one. Thus a guy using a middle urinal is being a jerk according to the rules  That and the fact is, two guys would simply know, you don't look at the other guys junk. Then again, I'm ex military. Anyone with a military background knows during a piss break outdoors, you whip it out and water the grass, any grass will do, and no one gives a shit who's looking. In the military the showers are not isolated booths, and that means no privacy at all. I'm quite comfortable walking around naked in front of my gender.

Civilians are a weird species though.

There is no difference between a woman cutting loose a loud one in the toilet and a man. Taking a piss sounds the same while sitting, and I happen to know my wife sounds the same with a full bladder as a man standing does.

So in the end, this is really just what it is, petty crap surrounded by dogma, often rooted in religion and culture, that honestly thinks if a girl is in a restroom with 1 or more guys, rampant out of control fucking is inevitable. Well considering what I know of teens, I suppose that isn't totally impossible. But considering how little incentive there is to honour a door with the opposing gender symbol on it as being impenetrable. There's nothing to stop a male or a female from entering an opposing genders rest room specifically to fuck like bunnies is there.

Men's rooms differ from Ladie's rooms in only one fashion worth mention. Ladies rooms don't feature urinals and thus the reclaimed floor space means they will have more actual toilets. But men being able to whip it out faster on average, and able to use a urinal with less effort, is why after a movie, on average, you can ditch your used pop faster than your girlfriend wife did and be waiting outside for her rather than the other way around.


----------



## VashTS (Nov 19, 2011)

i vote for bathroom police

except i got a shy bladder so i guess i would no longer be able to use public restrooms lol


----------



## MFDC12 (Nov 21, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has* no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands* or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is *a set of fake breasts* and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.



hysterectomy, oophorectomy,  Mammary Duct Excision‎. born females who get these procedures for medical reasons aren't really females anymore are they? :rollseyes:

many MTF transgenders I know don't have fake breasts. hormones treatments can enlarge breast sizes. and men _biologically_ have breasts. you know that males can get breast cancer, right?

so much of this thread implies the binary gender system exists, and it is quite irritating.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 22, 2011)

MFDC12 said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > Not only that - she is still biologically male. A 100% sex change is impossible from a medical standpoint - she still has* no uterus, no ovaries, no milk glands* or no naturally-formed vagina - all there really is is *a set of fake breasts* and a mutilated male reproductive organ shaped to look like a vagina. She was never born with those and her hormone levels are adjusted artificially.
> ...



Their biological makeup is entirely feminene even without breasts - we're not discussing people that have been wounded in accidents or had medical procedures that required removing some organ for their sake, we're discussing standard, everyday males and females and how to distinguish sex and gender, moreover, in a very general manner. I'd also like to underline that the internal built of a "male breast" is different than that of the female's, you're grabbing straws with the cancer. You Mad?


----------



## Thomas83Lin (Nov 22, 2011)

> they have been told to use the staff bathrooms at Fort Collins High School. But, Malikowski told reporters, “There’s not staff bathrooms all over the school, so when you really got to pee, you got to pee.”


The school was generous in letting them use the Staff restroom. I'm with the school on this one.


----------



## MFDC12 (Nov 22, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> MFDC12 said:
> 
> 
> > Foxi4 said:
> ...



What one can assume from what you _wrote_ was that a biological female is only a biological female if they have a uterus, ovaries, milk glands, or a "naturally formed" vagina, and the only thing that makes a transgender person is fake breasts and reconstructed genitals.

I debated against 4 of those 6 arguments, saying that just because one does not have those parts does not make them female, nor do all MTF get plastic surgery, and maybe I did jump to conclusions that breast statement, but that does not make my argument any less true. Of course they are different structured, and to be quite honest, most men don't think they have breasts and assume breast cancer is just for females.

Your whole argument assumes the binary gender is the only thing that exists, and things are not that black and white, and can go beyond transvestism/transgender. There is intersex, third gender, pangender, whatever other genderqueer identity someone has. As stated by other people in this thread, a unisex/gender neutral bathroom would be preferable in any case.


----------



## Thomas83Lin (Nov 22, 2011)

MFDC12 said:


> a unisex/gender neutral bathroom would be preferable in any case.


Staff Restroom = Unisex restroom. just saying. The school in my opinion did they right thing here, considering this is a high school

edit: Though maybe schools were this is common, should consider a unisex restroom.


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 22, 2011)

Staff restroom = small in number.

Next thing we hear is a transsexual girl pee herself and the floor because she couldn't make it to the staff bathroom. 

:/


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 22, 2011)

MFDC12 said:


> Your whole argument assumes the binary gender is the only thing that exists, and things are not that black and white, and can go beyond transvestism/transgender. There is intersex, third gender, pangender, whatever other genderqueer identity someone has. As stated by other people in this thread, a unisex/gender neutral bathroom would be preferable in any case.



No, my whole argument is based on the *binary sex*, because humans as a species only has those two. Even if you count hermaphrodites, supermen or superwomen, all those cases ALWAYS lean towards one of the two. *Gender*, a psychological and social construct used to identify oneself, has nothing to do with biological (other than the fact that some use biological sex to discover their gender via routes of deduction "I have a penis, thus I look like a male - I must be male" but it's more complex then that and obviously not a cemented rule - some people just don't see it that way.) sex mate, it'd really help if you read what I actually wrote throughout these few pages rather then going all TL;DR, because it makes you look ignorant.

Regardless of whether you were born male or female (sex), whether you percieve yourself as male or female or an elephant god (gender), whether you were born neither but percieve yourself as one of those (again, gender, but those people correct their bodies early on to prevent disfigurement and hormonal issues), the bathrooms are to be used by corresponding SEXES, not genders.

I can have a change of heart and feel female all of a sudden, find out my true nature. That doesn't mean that I should start going to the ladies bathroom - I would, to say it lightly, disturb the females there. Out of common decency, I'd still use "the gents" until I change my sex to prevent discomfort for other users of said bathroom.


----------



## Hells Malice (Nov 22, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> Staff restroom = small in number.
> 
> Next thing we hear is a transsexual girl pee herself and the floor because she couldn't make it to the staff bathroom.
> 
> :/



I don't know how gargantuan US highschools are, but here in Canada if you ask to go to the bathroom and can't make it to the staff bathroom, you waited entirely too long to go.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 22, 2011)

Hells Malice said:


> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> > Staff restroom = small in number.
> ...


+1, it's not Hogwarts - you don't have moving staircases, bathroom passwords, poltergeists and other cretures preventing you from peeing, do you?


----------



## KingVamp (Nov 22, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> Hells Malice said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how gargantuan US highschools are, but here in Canada if you ask to go to the bathroom and can't make it to the staff bathroom, you waited entirely too long to go.
> ...


Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
I even seen people walk out the classroom because they need to go so badly and
get wrote up for it. 

I wonder if Hogwarts got unisex bathrooms?  
Funny thing is, I was just watching the 8 movie of Harry Potter.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 22, 2011)

KingVamp said:


> Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
> I even seen people walk out the classroom because they need to go so badly and
> get wrote up for it.



A) A pupil/student is supposed to do his buisness BEFORE the lesson starts - there are breaks between courses/lessons/lectures there for a reason, y'know.
B) Don't you think that if the staff has no problems utilizing staff bathrooms, they're "close enough" for pupils aswell? Or do we undergo a certain mutation of the bladder at the age of 25-30 that I am unaware of that allows "Adults" to hold it in for longer?


----------



## azure0wind (Nov 22, 2011)

i can't believe this, seriously. suspending from bathroom?


----------



## leic7 (Nov 23, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> No, my whole argument is based on the *binary sex*, because humans as a species only has those two. Even if you count hermaphrodites, supermen or superwomen, all those cases ALWAYS lean towards one of the two.


You are wrong. Whichever biology teacher that taught you that needs to be kicked. Not everyone conforms to the sexual dimorphism in biology, which can be traced back to the genetics level at the "X"/"Y"-chromosomes. You don't sound like you have a background in this field, yet you talk big. But if you'd at least taken a bio course at the high school level you should know that your last statement is false. Unless you're implying those who don't fit nicely in the binary sex system can be arbitrarily forced into either camp, in which case, I haven't heard anyone try doing that in the scientific community (yet).


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 23, 2011)

leic7 said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > No, my whole argument is based on the *binary sex*, because humans as a species only has those two. Even if you count hermaphrodites, supermen or superwomen, all those cases ALWAYS lean towards one of the two.
> ...



Another canditate for the "I haven't read the entire thread, but I must scream" award this year.

Please read up on the source material from page 10 or 11 posted here and accept the fact that 1 sex will be dominating in the hermaphrodite even if neither is fully developed, and that sex is usually chosen by doctors and recommended before sex change operations.

The human species has only two possible sexes due to a rather simple rule - chromosomes go in pairs. Since you have two chromosomes determining sex, that would be Y and X, you only have combinations XX and XY - YY has been proven an impossible combination. Other combinations are abnormalities, in which cases the percentage of development and dominant hormones are measured and the abnormality is surgically corrected, as mentioned before, to prevent disfigurement.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Nov 23, 2011)

This thread hasn't died yet?


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 23, 2011)

Hyro-Sama said:


> This thread hasn't died yet?



I'm amused myself. I jettisoned from it recently but have to come back time and time again because people "don't feel like reading" and prefer slander instead.

I do believe it's a lost battle though, so I may as well start ignoring that.


----------



## BlueStar (Nov 23, 2011)

Just remembered this story from a few years back
* Thai school offers transsexual toilet*

* http://news.bbc.co.u...fic/7529227.stm*


----------



## leic7 (Nov 23, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> Another canditate for the "I haven't read the entire thread, but I must scream" award this year.
> 
> Please read up on the source material from page 10 or 11 posted here and accept the fact that 1 sex will be dominating in the hermaphrodite even if neither is fully developed, and that sex is usually chosen by doctors and recommended before sex change operations.
> 
> The human species has only two possible sexes due to a rather simple rule - chromosomes go in pairs. Since you have two chromosomes determining sex, that would be Y and X, you only have combinations XX and XY - YY has been proven an impossible combination. Other combinations are abnormalities, in which cases the percentage of development and dominant hormones are measured and the abnormality is surgically corrected, as mentioned before, to prevent disfigurement.


I have read the thread, actually. I began to chime in when I saw the blatantly wrong information about biological sex you gave. Your so-called source material on intersexuality was a Google Translated page from a different language. Is that where you got the idea every single one could be classified as either/or? Making absolute statements about everyone's situation means a single exception would render your entire argument invalid. And there are people who've never undergone surgery to prevent "disfigurement" as you put it.

I'm not sure if you even realize this, but your definition of "sex" seems to have swayed between a purely biological POV (a strictly phenotypic one at first?) and a social POV (one that can be arbitrarily chosen by doctors). From a biological POV, a strictly binary code on human sexuality is both phenotypically and genotypically inadequate. No biology teacher properly trained would enforce such a system to the exclusion of other possibilities; there's no empirical evidence to support such claims. Forcing intersexuals to be identified as either "female" or "male" is not science. I apologize if this is a rather obvious point to anyone else... just a little peeved by the (mis)use of science to justify someone's personal beliefs.

If you're going to google this info, I suggest trying the keyword "intersex", as it's the more commonly used term nowadays. FYI, "hermaphrodite" is almost never used on people in scientific journals. If you wish to read up on the phenotypic (and some chromosomal) variations in humans, the wikipedia page can actually be a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 24, 2011)

The page I linked you to was originally in my native language, polish, hence the use of Google Translate. I use the term "disfigurement" for the effects of prolonged hermaphrodism that are caused by hormonal imbalance, not hermaphrodism itself. Intersex is never used in my native language as a scientific term, hence I do not use it in english either. I'd also like to underline that you're only expressing your personal view on the matter. You say that there is no empirical evidence that supports the theory of sex dualism, I say there is no evidence that disproves it, furthermore, I say that it is a general rule that chromosomes always walk in pairs, thus the only logical combinations are XX and XY, since two Y chromosomes are not able to connect, thus rendering all other connections as invalid and by proxy abnormal.

You treat hermaphrodism, or as you call it, "Intersex" as a natural occourence, I treat it as a form of birth defect. We simply have a different approach and it would be best if we agree to disagree, since this is one of those disputes where both sides have equal ammounts of for and againts arguments, which funnily enough features some that are used interchangably by both sides.

It would also be about time to let this thread die, I honestly believe that the subject matter has been exhausted.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 24, 2011)

True, I don't tend to use words such as "abnormal", "defect", etc. as easily. And I do apologize for my insensitivity with regard to the language differences.
My previous wheelchair analogy still applies, though. Regardless if you consider it a "defect", the point is they're people who exist. As long as there's one person affected by it, defect or not, their rights should not be ignored.
The fact that there are people who don't conform to a strictly binary system already "disproves" such a system. To prove a hypothesis such as, "there can only be A and B", can be exceedingly difficult; but it's fairly easy to "disprove" it - you just need to find one(1) exception.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 24, 2011)

leic7 said:


> True, I don't tend to use words such as "abnormal", "defect", etc. as easily. And I do apologize for my insensitivity with regard to the language differences.
> My previous wheelchair analogy still applies, though. Regardless if you consider it a "defect", the point is they're people who exist. As long as there's one person affected by it, defect or not, their rights should not be ignored.
> The fact that there are people who don't conform to a strictly binary system already "disproves" such a system. To prove a hypothesis such as, "there can only be A and B", can be exceedingly difficult; but it's fairly easy to "disprove" it - you just need to find one(1) exception.



An exception of a rule does not create a new rule - it simply means that the rule is not set in stone, every rule has exceptions. We generally have two sexes that actively participate in the cycle of reproducion - male and female. There are no other sexes, just malfunctioning mixes of the forementioned. An "Intersex" has no technical purpose, it's simply nature's "slip" during the development of the fetus, it's not a "sex" per-say.

I'm far from "ignoring" the rights of the "Intersex" people, much like I wouldn't ignore people who are handicapped. It's not like it's their choice to be born different. What I was saying was that at the end of the day they are either "more male" or "more female", it's simply a matter of percentages.

I'm wholeheartedly for sex adjustment operations and therapies, not just because of my belief in the binary system, but also for the health of those people. Wrongly-developed reproduction organs may cause unwanted pressure on inner organs that may lead to certain complications. Non-balanced levels of hormones may lead to wrongly-developing glands typically associated with given sexes, for example the thyroid, which in turn may lead to their overgrowth. I could go on and on about the "dangers" of hermaphrodism.

You can't have "the best of both worlds", in most cases it's highly recommended to lean towards the side a given body is better-developed towards, and the earlier the better.


----------



## Midna (Nov 25, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> KingVamp said:
> 
> 
> > Not everyone have the same bladder control nor do every teacher let you go during class.
> ...


Aw please don't ever, ever be a teacher. I hate teachers like you.

The breaks are when the students have their drinks. Make sense?


----------



## Gahars (Nov 25, 2011)

Midna said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > KingVamp said:
> ...



To be fair, there are several breaks throughout the day. Use the bathroom during one and drink during the rest if you have to. Plus, lunch periods offer another chance.

It isn't that hard to manage.


----------



## Hells Malice (Nov 25, 2011)

Midna said:


> Foxi4 said:
> 
> 
> > KingVamp said:
> ...



My school system had 4 classes over the entire day. So they were what...hour and a half, almost, classes. Not one person wet themselves. Breaks are for bathroom BREAKS. You don't need to go during class, and even if you do, most teachers DO let their students go.
If they don't, wet yourself. They'll never keep a kid from going ever again.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 26, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> An exception of a rule does not create a new rule - it simply means that the rule is not set in stone, every rule has exceptions. We generally have two sexes that actively participate in the cycle of reproducion - male and female. There are no other sexes, just malfunctioning mixes of the forementioned. An "Intersex" has no technical purpose, it's simply nature's "slip" during the development of the fetus, it's not a "sex" per-say.
> 
> I'm far from "ignoring" the rights of the "Intersex" people, much like I wouldn't ignore people who are handicapped. It's not like it's their choice to be born different. What I was saying was that at the end of the day they are either "more male" or "more female", it's simply a matter of percentages.
> 
> ...


I'm happy to hear you say that rule isn't set in stone - I've thought you were arguing otherwise all along. Now, whether or not something has a "technical purpose" that you can comprehend is irrelevant to the concept of evolution via natural selection, variations (including mutations) within a population of a species are integral to the process of evolution. The role of science is merely to observe and document what's out there, determining whose existence is and isn't considered "socially acceptable" is not science.

I don't know what kind of definition you've been using for "male" and "female"? Care to elaborate? For most of the commonly used definitions I've seen, there always seem to be some people who don't fit a strictly two-sex system; thus, I think they're inadequate.


----------



## Foxi4 (Nov 26, 2011)

I usually tend to go by common sense and from the general towards the details. To put it bluntly and in general terms, a male is an organism that expresses male characteristics, a female is an organism that expresses female characteristics, and of course we're talking about "the majority of biological characteristics" - I recognize the fact that there are manly women and feminene men, that doesn't magically change their sex. It's not so much the deffinition that matters here, but the methods of distinction.

The easiest and most obvious way is checking the external reproductive organs, but since we're on the intersex subject, let's assume that the results are not conclusive. In that case, the next logical step would be to check what kind of gonades are created - sperms or eggs. If neither are created, we should check how matters look on the internal side of things - whether there are testicles present or not, whether there are ovaries, a uterus and whatnot. Here a 3D ultrasound technique bears best results since you don't have to operate. In case we have "both" present, then we should determine which ones are active. If both are active, then we should determine which ones present higher activity, and thus find out the "sex". If neither are active (which is a shame), we should determine the sex based upon the level of hormones. The sets are never even, there will always be more male or more female hormones present.

Using that kind of approach you can - from the general towards the details, narrow the "sex" down to the choice between one of the two - male or female, based upon actual characteristics of a given person. If that's not a proper, scientific approach then I don't know what is.


Back to the subject, it is the gender that determines most of our social relations, not the sex, however not in this particular case, simply because we're thinking about the collective of students more than about the individual, I hope you understand my point.


----------



## leic7 (Nov 26, 2011)

Your common sense is not necessarily the same as another person's common sense.

Devising a method to determine which one of the 2 prescribed labels should be used on someone, BEFORE having a clear definition of what those labels are, is not how people usually do things in the scientific community. A big problem with that approach is: How do we know there are exactly 2 labels in the first place? i.e. we could just as easily have 10 different categories for sex, and devising a method to see who falls under which of the 10 wouldn't be any more difficult. It's the equivalence of pre-determining the outcome of an experiment, and then doing an experiment with the "results" that fall in line with the preset outcome; and if they don't, well, make them fall in line anyway.

What I find difficult to follow is this: at one point you seemed to acknowledge there are biological exceptions to the binary rule; yet, you're suggesting that any and all exceptions could be made to fit the binary rule anyway (which would imply the exceptions are not true exceptions to the rule). So... do you actually acknowledge there are "true" biological exceptions?

And sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "the collective of students"...


----------

