# Used Games Sales and the Future: Still Needed?



## Ryukouki (Nov 21, 2013)

​Hey guys, sorry for being missing in action for a bit. Anyway, the next generation of gaming is here (...at least, it is here in the United States). The Sony Playstation 4 has launched for North America as of last Friday, and the Microsoft XBOX One console has launched as of today for us. As far as the subject at hand, it is going to be about used games. Used games used to be a decent part of my video gaming past. I was unwilling to buy some games right out the door on day one, so that usually meant waiting for my local GameStop store to start selling them used. On one hand, buying games used meant that I, a consumer, could save a bit of cash on the side. On the other hand, the games industry would be hurt, although not by a large amount. What I want to explore here are the benefits of buying games used, and whether they are necessarily needed nowadays, with gaming taking to the cloud.​​[prebreak]Continue reading[/prebreak]​​Used game sales are both nice and at the same time bad to have. We can see developers sometimes not wanting to develop games because they could end up sold in the used game stores. They do also end up vocally complaining about used games. As I mentioned a little earlier, it can also be nice for people to buy games at a slightly lower price. According to an article on Cinema Blend, a study was conducted in 2012 by the NPD Group and the results found that used game sales are on the decline, while microtransactions and downloadable content (DLC) were on the rise. Key figures include digital download games going up by 33%, with four key markets netting in ten billion dollars alone. This study also noted that retail sales are on the decline, again indicating that the cloud gaming is the new future. Another point of interest is in mobile gaming, which can appear to be a powerhouse on first glance, but it turns out only 27% of Americans are interested in dishing out cash for their phone adventures. In Europe, this number is about 40%. What happens though if games are bought in bulk as new, but advertised as used?​​In some cases, used games can be very difficult to find. As a result of some games being rare to find, prices for them start to rise. A great example of this is the popular Nintendo Wii title _Xenoblade Chronicles, _a popular role-playing game in Japan. The release in North America was rather small and contained, as the only way to pick up the game was online or in-store at GameStop. Copies went quickly, and after a few months, it was rumored that GameStop had ordered several thousand copies without shrink wrap, and began selling them as used. Unfortunately, customers found that the game was basically brand new, and had unused Club Nintendo codes. These games sold for as much as $90. There was a minor uproar about the situation as consumers accused GameStop of selling the game in an attempt to increase the marginal sales of the title. More detail could be found here, courtesy of the website The PA Report. I find it interesting that new titles somehow end up either "Used" or "Preowned" two weeks after release (this happened when I ran to pick up the XBOX 360 title _Dead or Alive 5_), at a slight discount. The game felt perfectly new to me, the instruction manual felt unopened. Is it practical to sell games that basically feel brand new, as used? The PA Report article mentioned price agreements, and marking the game used would cause prices to increase as a way to skirt the language of the price agreement, but is this technically considered unethical? And, with the release of the XBOX One and Playstation 4, which marks a migration towards gaming in the cloud, are used game sales still needed? What may happen to used game sellers like GameStop as a result of this switching of gears?​​Gaming is starting to move towards the cloud. We see this in a lot of gaming mediums nowadays, with examples including Steam or the Nintendo eShop. With these eShop titles sometimes ending up cheaper than their retail counterparts, what purposes do retail and use game stores serve nowadays? Is cloud gaming that much better than physical hardware? We can easily say cloud gaming is detrimental as it would require a lot of online updating to make the game as best as it can be, which can be problematic for those with slower internet access, not to mention storage limitations. An instance of digital games going on the cheap happening was with _Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies _for the Nintendo 3DS, which was an eShop downloadable title that failed to appear in retail due to declining sales for the franchise, a poor mistake, in my opinion, despite the price discount. I feel that in this case, restricting the game to a specific medium only ended up hurting sales. As gaming moves more towards the cloud, is price gouging on used titles still needed? Used game sales are obviously going to be hurt, which was analyzed by an article posted on Gamasutra. A lot more of the number crunching details are given in the article. Gamasutra has argued that with this drop in sales, the position of GameStop's usefulness are going to be gravely diminished, and I cannot disagree here as more and more systems move towards the cloud. It becomes a lot easier in a lot of ways: the lack of having to carry physical media around, having to pay less money for the same content, and being able to do so from the comfort of the home are just minor benefits here. There are plenty more.​​

​As far as this table is concerned, the New Hardware and Software part are pretty self-explanatory, but the Used Product and Other might need a bit more explanation. Used Product, according to the Gamasutra data, consists of the catch-all for the products that GameStop resells, including software, hardware, and accessories. The Other category indicates PC software, digital content, cards for online services, new and refurbished devices, and subscriptions for the GameStop related magazine. Based on the trends illustrated above, we can notice that used software is on a slight decline, with more interest in the Other category.​​I am awfully verbose tonight. I am going to close out this article by asking the broad question about whether we as gamers still need used game sales, and whether or not it is safe to completely migrate over to cloud gaming. What do you find are the benefits and disadvantages of used games? Do you find instances in which you wish used games have hurt your overall experience? Feel free to discuss below. Also, if you have any ideas as to what you want me to write about, feel free to PM me with your idea(s). I will run it by and be happy to give you feedback as to whether or not I would like to pursue an article about said idea(s).​​​


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## GameWinner (Nov 21, 2013)

Conflicted on used games. On one hand, it does save me a lot of money. But on the other hand, it feels like I'm not supporting the game industry.  :/
Edit: Adding on to this, I want also support smaller niche companies by not buying their games used.


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## Ryukouki (Nov 21, 2013)

GameWinner said:


> Conflicted on used games. On one hand, it does save me a lot of money. But on the other hand, it feels like I'm not supporting the game industry. :/


 

I kind of feel the same way.


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## Blaze163 (Nov 21, 2013)

UltraMew said:


> First post.


 
Truly worthy of a spot on your CV.

Personally, I think there should always be a market for used games. While I'm doing ok in life and I earn enough money to see my bills paid and my daughter looked after, it's pretty rare that I have the money to buy a full price new release. When I'm not sure about a game I generally try to pick it up pre-owned. The used games market exists so that people who don't always have enough to get brand new games can still enjoy the latest titles by trading in their old games or picking up the new releases slightly cheaper. If the used games market disappears, then gaming becomes a little too elitist for my tastes. It would alienate people who are just trying to amuse themselves on a low budget, who are arguably the people that need gaming the most. By all means explore the Cloud for those that can afford it, but don't cut off a huge chunk of your audience and therefore profits by putting games out of reach for the presumably fairly sizable percentage of the gaming community that operate on those lower budgets.


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## Monty Kensicle (Nov 21, 2013)

If I was a game developer (Not the big wigs who hire programmers to make them lots of money) but one of the crew who personally worked on a game, I'd be more concerned if my time and effort was appreciated by someone enjoying my work. I'm sure a lot of folks in the field want to make money but if that's your only concern then you're making games for the wrong reasons.

I never would have seen some truly great games because my budget would not allow me to buy the new version. Same for consoles too, I usually buy used and a generation behind unless it's an MMO like Pokemon. That I splurged for.

I like the persistence of physical media, I'm not afraid that someday my Super Nintendo will die and have all my games go with it. Not to mention no DRM hoops to jump through, so much fun trying to prove over the phone that you owned a copy of The Sims 2 after your hard drive had died.


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## GameWinner (Nov 21, 2013)

Monty Kensicle said:


> If I was a game developer (Not the big wigs who hire programmers to make them lots of money) but one of the crew who personally worked on a game, I'd be more concerned if my time and effort was appreciated by someone enjoying my work. I'm sure a lot of folks in the field want to make money but if that's your only concern then you're making games for the wrong reasons.
> 
> I never would have seen some truly great games because my budget would not allow me to buy the new version. Same for consoles too, I usually buy used and a generation behind unless it's an MMO like Pokemon. That I splurged for.
> 
> I like the persistence of physical media, I'm not afraid that someday my Super Nintendo will die and have all my games go with it. Not to mention no DRM hoops to jump through, so much fun trying to prove over the phone that you owned a copy of The Sims 2 after your hard drive had died.


This post reminds me of the guy behind Hotline Miami. He didn't really mind people pirating his game as long as they were enjoying his work.


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## the_randomizer (Nov 21, 2013)

If I ever get used games, it sure as hell won't be through Gamestop. The games I get now are brand new since I don't want to spend $50 for a new game.


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## Armadillo (Nov 21, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> ​Used game sales are both nice and at the same time bad to have. We can see developers sometimes not wanting to develop games because they could end up sold in the used game stores. They do also end up vocally complaining about used games.​​​


 
Too bad for them. Everyone else has to put up with used sales. Game devs are not a special flower that needs protecting.

As for not needing used games because of digital services. Of course we still need physical used games, at least on the console side. New consoles, no backwards compatibility, all your digital purchases from previous gen, not playable on new consoles, no telling how long they will be willing to keep that content up for.

We go all digital, want to play something once the servers are gone or content is removed. Too bad. Don't even have to wait that long, license issues can get stuff pulled. TMNT games on 360 (not sure which ones) got pulled and won't be coming back. Anyone who wants to play them & doesn't have them, too bad. At least with physical, if something like that happens, while new copies would not be printed, old used copies would still exist.


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## urbanman2004 (Nov 21, 2013)

I rather catch games on a discount instead of buying them new especially since some people can be careless with their game discs: I'll wait on Amazon to drop the prices after a few months.


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## Gahars (Nov 21, 2013)

I think it'd be better to say that we are reaching for the cloud, but our feet are still touching the ground. We're heading in that direction, sure, but we're still a long ways away.

Honestly, the criticism of used game sales is vastly overblown. They might hurt, sure, but used sales are a reality in just about every industry. Car companies don't fold because of used car dealerships, used furniture hasn't crippled the home furnishings market, Hollywood still exists despite used sales and bootlegs, etc. Like piracy, used game sales are an easy scapegoat for publishers to run behind (and, really, if you're so frightened of used game sales, maybe you shouldn't give retailers an unreasonably low profit margin on new merchandise in the first place).

Just because someone is willing to buy a cheap used copy doesn't mean they would've been willing to buy it new if that was the only option. If your game is good, then you'll win over a new fan who might be willing to buy your next title. If you produce DLC that's actually worthwhile and reasonably priced, you can still get some money. A used sale isn't the be-all, end-all.

And honestly, I do think we need used games for the consoles because they provide at least some competition. PC gaming's pretty much wiped out used games, but PC is an open platform; even Steam has a bunch of other services and stores to keep it from complacency. You don't technically own your games (for the most part), but the extremely cheap pricing more than makes up for it. Consoles, however, are closed platforms; the online store is going to be run by Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo and no one else. Digital prices on console games are bad enough as is; removing used games from the equation isn't going to help. Retail probably wouldn't look much better, either.

Plus, there's something to be said for having the freedom to share or trade a game with friends. Until Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo can make me a better offer, I'd rather hold on to that.


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## Lestworth (Nov 21, 2013)

What Gahars said.

If a game company creates a game im very excited for, because i know of their past and this game interests me. I will probably buy it new. However, if a game i have heard about being pretty good but im skeptical, i use to rent it before i even thought about buying it. Now since renting has been fazed out, i have moved on to buy games used a big discount to try them out. I have also become a smarter person with my choices after renting games was fazed out.

If a company has earned my hard earned dollar with a purchase of a new game, its probably because it will be of a very good quality. Sometimes i get burned, but more times then not they have earned that dollar. I treat the used market as a chance to "Try games you normally wouldn't pick up". Or even get games you skipped over because you were busy with others.

I just cant see the used market being fazed out because it holds the integrity of the market in check. Without it we could see games jumping up to $100 a piece. Ppl will argue why hasnt the pc market done this yet? because of console .. and also Steam !!!.

If a company gets me to get a game used, and i like it, odds are im gonna spend money on the DLC's for that game if offered. Its why the DLC market has EXPLODED.


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## stanleyopar2000 (Nov 21, 2013)

screw this "controlled cloud" shit. Give me physical copy any day. I like having my physical disk rights. not these DRM or "license" crap which these giants view down on the consumer as having a "privilege" or a "service" from them


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## Ryukouki (Nov 21, 2013)

Heh, I'm not saying that used games are an entirely horrible practice that needs to be abolished by any means, but I was more interested in the commentary about whether or not there are alternatives that can help salvage an already declining market. Are there things that can be done to help make used sales more appealing at this point in time, or is it too late with the fact that the cloud is quite literally right over our head?


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## Chocolina (Nov 21, 2013)

I never saw used games as an issue that works against the gaming industry because used-everything-else isn't an issue.

The basis of the producers/developers' arguments is that their copyrights, trademarks, and other legal jargon, in their opinion, entitles them to and endless cycle of profits through trading. The problem with thinking like that is: well what about every fucking other thing thats been made, trademarked, and sold of the last 100 years?

If EA sells a copy of Need for Speed, and then further demands a cut when someone resells that same copy of Need for Speed, then whats to say that Ford can't demand a payment from you selling your used car, or GE demanding something from you for selling a used fridge? All different type of products, but the same issue. It doesn't matter who made and sold whatever product to you, if you pay for it, then you should own what you pay for, and have reasonable amount of rights when it comes to ownership and what you should and should not be allowed to do.

The only thing that sets video games and other digital media apart from other industries is how digital content can be replicated and distributed for free, and then when that happens, the used game arguement is thrown out the window and shifts towards piracy.

The video game industry, as well as movie, music, television, and other forms of media are just plain greedy, because after they sell their content/products, they throw fits about what people do with the property they now own. Meanwhile other trademarked and copyrighted things in the world are sold and traded all over the world all the time, and no one cares.



stanleyopar2000 said:


> screw this "controlled cloud" shit. Give me physical copy any day. I like having my physical disk rights. not these DRM or "license" crap which these giants view down on the consumer as having a "privilege" or a "service" from them


I wouldn't have a problem with cloud if I actually owned the digital content I bought, and I always had a working internet connection. I dont know about other people, but my internet often goes down unexpectedly for hours at a time, and during those moments, the only access to entertainment I have are physical objects or content stored locally.


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## DinohScene (Nov 21, 2013)

Cloud, neat invention if you have a permanent/stable/highspeed internet connection.
You can't play games on the move then nor can you play them when your internet is down.

No, I'll stick with traditional media.


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## Lestworth (Nov 21, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> Heh, I'm not saying that used games are an entirely horrible practice that needs to be abolished by any means, but I was more interested in the commentary about whether or not there are alternatives that can help salvage an already declining market. Are there things that can be done to help make used sales more appealing at this point in time, or is it too late with the fact that the cloud is quite literally right over our head?


 

In all honesty we got a hint of it when Xbone attempted to force feed it to the community. Obviously we rejected it. I cant sit here and say "we are for sure gonna get it next gen even if we hate it", but obviously the ground work has been created for it.

I love having a physical copy, because i feel like i own it. A digital copy is different, and can be ripped from you once it has stopped being supported. Used sales will almost never be appealing to the publisher because they all view it as a loss for the business. The only way they would view it as good, is if they get a cut of the sales, that would cut into the profit margin of all business that sell used. It would also make the used market online take a small hit, as they would be dealing with those business now on their spreadsheet.


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## trumpet-205 (Nov 21, 2013)

When you said cloud I thought you mean game streaming such as Onlive.

Anyway I think used market for physical release is still very important. For one games released digitally doesn't last forever. It can get delisted and you have no way of downloading it again. There is also the fact that not everyone has broadband internet that allows you to download game digitally.


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## FireGrey (Nov 21, 2013)

I think that game developers should have the option of whether or not retailers can sell their games used, it could be as simple as a database check.


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## Rayder (Nov 21, 2013)

Clouds tend to dry up and blow away.   Just look at GFWL (Game For Windows Live, just in case you didn't know....or "god-awful", which is how I always see the GFWL acronym for some bizarre reason, heh)  Unless there is some sort of bypass hack or patch released for Flatout UC (disc version) I'll be screwed for playing that game (especially if I wish to save the game progress) and it's one of my all time favorite games.

So it's not just digital purchases that could "dry up and blow away", some disk based games will eventually suffer the same fate.  And they wonder why the gaming market seems to be on a decline.  Oh yes, there's games being played alright, not just by gamers, but also ON the gamers.  And more and more gamers are starting to figure that out all the time, hence the decline.

As for Gamestop......who gives a rat's ass what happens to them.  For every used game you've ever bought there, there is a poor shmuck who was likely given only a tiny fraction of the money YOU payed for that used game. I don't know how many times I've seen Gamestop charge only $5 less for a used version of a new release, meanwhile they charge $5 MORE for the new version than regular retail stores, so in effect, you actually payed full price for that USED game.  AND THEN, you might not even get the original case.  Gamestop can burn in hell.


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## Taleweaver (Nov 21, 2013)

Hmm...with everyone already defending the player's perspective (to which I agree), I think it's better practice if I defend the industry's side a bit as well...

Despite what's mentioned, you can't really compare used games to used furniture or used cars. For one thing, there is diminished quality of the product over time. Software doesn't wear out as fast. A DVD/blueray is pretty sturdy, and unless there's a mechanical failure, it just keeps working (and if that happens, the product is beyond resale anyhow). It's not so much with physical goods. Used cars have a higher insurance, and usually higher maintenance. For furniture, there is also this thing about it needing to be moved and having to fit in with the rest of the furniture. These are two examples, but I'm sure for most physical goods, there is this reason. And I haven't heard anyone ever talked about not buying a used car "because I want to help out those manufacturers".

So really, you can pretty much only compare used games to used movies and used music CD's. And it's no incidence that these categories allow for digital piracy as well. And neither is it a coincidence that these industries needed to change their way of doing things in order to survive. Hollywood improved the movie theater experience (you can't capture those effects on a hand camera), the music industry lowered their prices.

And games? It's no wonder they're migrating away from physical copies: the used games market and piracy are simply putting too much pressure on their revenue. Some complain about that, but the actual solution (DLC and added content) is already being used. And we might like it or not, but that isn't going to change.

Also: watch this video. It was an eye opener for me.


EDIT: for the record: I answered 'yes' on the question, seen from the developer's eyes. Of course it's not fun that we as customers are forced to be online for offline games, or lose our games if services (GFWL) stop working. But like it or not, that is the way the future will be. Exactly because of the situation of games as they are. With humble bundles, good old games, steam deals and some of yesteryear's games being given away for FREE, how is anyone going to make a profit? Already, hundreds of people refuse to pay "full price" at retail because they know it will drop quickly in a matter of months. And they'll be right.


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 21, 2013)

Until everywhere in the world has decent internet for cheap prices (literally, it costs less than 5 cents to give consumers a GB of bandwidth), cloud gaming will never become the new standard.

And there are just more people who prefer physical over digital anyways.

For used games, I think they're awesome, but retailers need to make up for it. If someone buys a used game, then some profit should go to the publisher.


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## Another World (Nov 21, 2013)

i would embrace the digital format over physical if there was a law that said in 30 years the digital format must be archived and preserved for a long as humanly possible. i know that my carts will eventually degrade, but right now my 30 yr old atari games are working great. will i still be able to download my digital games in 30 years, probably not. the companies creating the work shouldn't be debating new/used sales, but rather discussing the preservation of the bulk of their library. they don't realize that they are living history. 50 years from now someone will want to experience their games. if the cloud was shut down, the service suspended, or the company disbanded, we may end up only experiencing these games by reading about them.

-another world


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## pwsincd (Nov 21, 2013)

i feel bad on VW that the passat i bought wasnt new and infact came from a dealer .. pre owned .. but hell i saved a few quid.


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## osm70 (Nov 21, 2013)

Used games are worse than piracy, because you pay money and developers gets nothing.


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## anhminh (Nov 21, 2013)

osm70 said:


> Used games are worse than piracy, because you pay money and developers gets nothing.


 
They do get money from the first guy who buy it so it isn't nothing.


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## Mario92 (Nov 21, 2013)

As kid I had to buy second hand games as new ones were really pricey and I didn't have PC and certainly didn't have reliable internet connection. Nowdays I'm PS+ subscriber and use Steam alot. Of course I can still see many especially younger audience usually has that one console with no way to put that 3G modem to and no credit/debit card to even buy digital products. Actually few of my friends are struggling to buy items from eShop even when they have the money! If they make good system to buy digital games from stores with deep discounts (like you can do with steamwork games) and ability to install most of the game locally then I can see pretty bright future with digital only games without need for making all the DLC and multiplayer components to single player games.
Of course that's just ideal and consoles should play games offline always which makes such system irritating. On PC it just works.





osm70 said:


> Used games are worse than piracy, because you pay money and developers gets nothing.


Not exactly. Someone did pay in first time hmm? And second person can buy DLC and such. Of course first one to buy game had to pay more of it than person who bought digital version from steam with -90% discount. Difference is now that first person has to buy game again to play it where steam user still has it. 

E:


pwsincd said:


> i feel bad on VW that the passat i bought wasnt new and infact came from a dealer .. pre owned .. but hell i saved a few quid.


 
Of course becouse car comparison has always worked with digital products yeah!


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## aiat_gamer (Nov 21, 2013)

Well I think whether we want in or not, we WILL move into a place where physical media is obsolete. As a mainly pc gamer, I never buy a physical disk even if I have the chance to do it, it is just a hassle for me. My new pc does not even have a DVD drive! I am pretty sure by the end of this gen, physical games will be dead and gone.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 21, 2013)

Taleweaver said:


> Hmm...with everyone already defending the player's perspective (to which I agree), I think it's better practice if I defend the industry's side a bit as well...
> Used cars have a higher insurance, and usually higher maintenance.



Some interesting points, I can not really agree with any of them and will have to echo Armadillo in this regard. I usually figure that if for a moment they could have got a ruling against it they would have, at best all I can do is consider that grousing about second hand games to be a world class act of social engineering (double so if GOTY/DLC, poisoned clouds like Steam, perhaps the likes of rolling releases for games (popular in mobile phone world and what are termed MMOs) and the like are the other side of the incentive package).
As for used cars, insurance and repair.... no. Insurance is usually value linked to the car with it one of the more dominant factors to pricing there (improved anti theft and safety in newer models being the main thing to temper that in favour of new(er) cars. Parts and repair. Usually masked by warranties and compulsory services, you try buying dealer/company parts in the first few years of a car (assuming they are not shared between now older models) and between core charges and general premiums you will be paying a fortune and similarly as the dealers are technically the only people that can work on them (various governments force info to be given up in fairly short order). This flips back around when things become classics and may not be provided for even by the aftermarket set (usually where I find myself coming in as well as in those first few years)

As for the matter at hand I spent some time at the weekend attempting to work up a model for predicting the rarity of games. The gamestop selling NTSC Xenoblade as used did not bother me in the slightest and I struggle to even see why it should (to the point I will probably be hostile to those that consider it a bad thing), gamestop are certainly a bunch of moral questionable profiteers but that is what we call business.

In the end I will return to my usual offer. Game companies, if you want a slice of the second hand pie then either buy shares in someone that deals in them or offer the services yourselves.

For me the only way for me to embrace cloud gaming is for me to do it on my own terms and allow me to leverage my technical skills towards that end. As Steam, which does not do it on my own terms, became the go to example both in general of for those that aspire to do similar things I am not predicting it will happen any time soon. If you want to try selling me a service/consumable you are quite free to try though.


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## KingBlank (Nov 21, 2013)

I really hope game*stop* does not *stop* selling used games.


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## Obveron (Nov 21, 2013)

The games industry is doing better than ever, I don't feel the least bit bad about buying a used game.  The big publishers are finding more and more ways to gouge the consumer, why should consumers feel bad about buying a used game?


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## Taleweaver (Nov 21, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Some interesting points, I can not really agree with any of them and will have to echo Armadillo in this regard. I usually figure that if for a moment they could have got a ruling against it they would have, at best all I can do is consider that grousing about second hand games to be a world class act of social engineering (double so if GOTY/DLC, poisoned clouds like Steam, perhaps the likes of rolling releases for games (popular in mobile phone world and what are termed MMOs) and the like are the other side of the incentive package).
> As for used cars, insurance and repair.... no. Insurance is usually value linked to the car with it one of the more dominant factors to pricing there (improved anti theft and safety in newer models being the main thing to temper that in favour of new(er) cars. Parts and repair. Usually masked by warranties and compulsory services, you try buying dealer/company parts in the first few years of a car (assuming they are not shared between now older models) and between core charges and general premiums you will be paying a fortune and similarly as the dealers are technically the only people that can work on them (various governments force info to be given up in fairly short order). This flips back around when things become classics and may not be provided for even by the aftermarket set (usually where I find myself coming in as well as in those first few years)


Sorry...perhaps it was a bad example on my end, but that insurance policy was only an illustration. What I was trying to say is that everyone who sells a product on a large scale has the factor 'used resales' to deal with. If I sell product X to you, you own it and are entitled to sell it at a lower cost if you want.
What game companies are complaining about is that on one hand, they have to sell (sometimes very) large amounts to make any money off their investments, and on the other hand the actual game pretty much does not diminish in quality whatsoever. It's not that they want a certain special arrangement for their industry (at least: not that I can tell), but it IS a reality. Game companies know that having a huge audience doesn't mean that much if the majority of said audience is going to pirate, buy it used or await a purchase until the price drops. So they aim to collect money from that audience in other ways. And I don't think it's a coincidence that those other ways (DLC, extra content, F2P, cloud gaming) tend to circumvent the used market.


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## osm70 (Nov 21, 2013)

anhminh said:


> They do get money from the first guy who buy it so it isn't nothing.


 
If you pirate they still get money from the guy who copied it.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 21, 2013)

osm70 said:


> If you pirate they still get money from the guy who copied it.



What? I do not think things work that way.

I buy a game
You buy it off me
I can no longer play the game.

I buy a game
You get a copy
As do thousands of our friends.
We are now dealing in "if it is was not available"/"I wouldn't have purchased it anyway" type discussions and they never get anywhere fast.



Taleweaver said:


> What game companies are complaining about is that on one hand, they have to sell (sometimes very) large amounts to make any money off their investments, and on the other hand the actual game pretty much does not diminish in quality whatsoever. It's not that they want a certain special arrangement for their industry (at least: not that I can tell), but it IS a reality. Game companies know that having a huge audience doesn't mean that much if the majority of said audience is going to pirate, buy it used or await a purchase until the price drops. So they aim to collect money from that audience in other ways. And I don't think it's a coincidence that those other ways (DLC, extra content, F2P, cloud gaming) tend to circumvent the used market.



It is a known variable and if you have to sell so many games and you ignore such things then it is you that has the bad business model, can't really say I would lose any sleep over that one.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Nov 21, 2013)

lololol tl;dr lololol

As a kid I used to always go for used games because they were cheap and I just didn't care about packaging. Now that I'm older and I have access to more money, I prefer buying new games. Mostly because I want to support the developers, I still don't care about packaging.

At this point I stick with digital downloads, too. 99% of the games on my PS3 are all digital, same with my Vita. My PC, of course, is all digital as well. I'm pretty sure I don't even own any more UMD's for my PSP, so those are all digital, too. While the packaging for games is nice and all, I just don't have the shelf space to put 100's of games on. And really, if I absolutely wanted to have a physical case for a digital game I have I would just spend a few bucks and buy the case online, or hell, invest in a good printer, glossy paper, and a ton of empty game cases and make your own.


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## Guild McCommunist (Nov 21, 2013)

We all know the physical game industry is going the way of the music industry and digital will take over with the cries of turbonerds everywhere ringing out "But m-muh video game collecting."

EDIT: AKA used games are going the way of the dinosaur.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 21, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> We all know the physical game industry is going the way of the music industry and digital will take over with the cries of turbonerds everywhere ringing out "But m-muh video game collecting."
> 
> EDIT: AKA used games are going the way of the dinosaur.


 
To be fair, used games stores won't magically disappear when we go full-on digital, even if only for the sake of legacy games... think of all the vinyl record stores we have around.


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## Guild McCommunist (Nov 21, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> To be fair, used games stores won't magically disappear when we go full-on digital, even if only for the sake of legacy games... think of all the vinyl record stores we have around.


 

But those are like niche stores, we won't have massive chains like Gamestop around, although even they are jumping into the digital market a bit.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 21, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> We all know the physical game industry is going the way of the music industry and digital will take over with the cries of turbonerds everywhere ringing out "But m-muh video game collecting."
> 
> EDIT: AKA used games are going the way of the dinosaur.



But will that change come before the rest of the industry encounters the other big change?

Similarly there is a growing body of case law all over the shop that says users must be able to resell software.

How it will all play out I am not entirely sure, I am expecting gruesome deaths or radical reformations though.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 21, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> But those are like niche stores, we won't have massive chains like Gamestop around, although even they are jumping into the digital market a bit.


 
Of course - that's sort of what I implied.


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## qweesy777 (Nov 21, 2013)

Its such a rip off Gamestop sells the used version $5 or $10 bucks less than the new version..... yet they may give you $5 bucks if you trade it in to them. I only buy new games. I sold my playsation and Xbone 360. The dilemma is this since all of my gaming is on the 3DS and PC now, I would buy in the cloud IF it was half the price of the Physical cartridge...... The company doesn't have to make a cart, packaging,booklets or anything whatsoever so I feel they should pass the cheaper cost of the digital version down to the consumer, it literally costs them nothing to make the digital version......apart from the electric bill that it costs to run the computer. Until the industry moves this way I will continue to by NEW physical carts. As for gamestop used games......RIPOFF ALERT the $5 or $10 you'd save, you are not supporting the gaming industry and you help promote their ridiculous prices on USED games stop doing it vote with your dollars.


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## bitcounter (Nov 21, 2013)

Good discussion and opinions, although many of them are very common concerns with regards to digital and used. I'd like to bring something up though. I'm seeing the term "cloud" being tossed around left and right. People tend to do that with buzzwords without actually understanding what they mean. What everyone seems to be talking about is digital distribution, and not actual cloud gaming. OnLive is cloud gaming. Services like Xbox Live Games on Demand and Steam are not. The primary difference between the two is whether the game is stored on a local machine or not. This is not the case with OnLive, which is why the service is considered cloud gaming. However, with Steam, the Nintendo eShop, etc., games _are_ stored locally- you download them onto your computer's hard drive (or memory stick, etc.). This is not cloud gaming. It's simply a way for publishers and developers to get the game to you, without a CD/DVD. Also, although you usually require an Internet connection to access you games on both services, OnLive requires a constant connection to play whereas Steam only requires a connection to log in.


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## Ryukouki (Nov 21, 2013)

bitcounter said:


> Good discussion and opinions, although many of them are very common concerns with regards to digital and used. I'd like to bring something up though. I'm seeing the term "cloud" being tossed around left and right. People tend to do that with buzzwords without actually understanding what they mean. What everyone seems to be talking about is digital distribution, and not actual cloud gaming. OnLive is cloud gaming. Services like Xbox Live Games on Demand and Steam are not. The primary difference between the two is whether the game is stored on a local machine or not. This is not the case with OnLive, which is why the service is considered cloud gaming. However, with Steam, the Nintendo eShop, etc., games _are_ stored locally- you download them onto your computer's hard drive (or memory stick, etc.). This is not cloud gaming. It's simply a way for publishers and developers to get the game to you, without a CD/DVD. Also, although you usually require an Internet connection to access you games on both services, OnLive requires a constant connection to play whereas Steam only requires a connection to log in.


 

Hm, fair enough! I will take that into consideration next time I approach the subject. Thanks for your feedback thus far, everyone.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 21, 2013)

qweesy777 said:


> Its such a rip off Gamestop sells the used version $5 or $10 bucks less than the new version..... yet they may give you $5 bucks if you trade it in to them. I only buy new games. I sold my playsation and Xbone 360. The dilemma is this since all of my gaming is on the 3DS and PC now, I would buy in the cloud IF it was half the price of the Physical cartridge...... The company doesn't have to make a cart, packaging,booklets or anything whatsoever so I feel they should pass the cheaper cost of the digital version down to the consumer, it literally costs them nothing to make the digital version......apart from the electric bill that it costs to run the computer. Until the industry moves this way I will continue to by NEW physical carts. As for gamestop used games......RIPOFF ALERT the $5 or $10 you'd save, you are not supporting the gaming industry and you help promote their ridiculous prices on USED games stop doing it vote with your dollars.



Whenever the discussion of gamestop comes around I usually have to throw out a phrase like "something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it", it looks like this thread will also be one of those times. Alternatively as far as supporting the game industry it could be seen as justifying prices of games being what they are by giving them a measure of retained value.



bitcounter said:


> Good discussion and opinions, although many of them are very common concerns with regards to digital and used. I'd like to bring something up though. I'm seeing the term "cloud" being tossed around left and right. People tend to do that with buzzwords without actually understanding what they mean. What everyone seems to be talking about is digital distribution, and not actual cloud gaming. OnLive is cloud gaming. Services like Xbox Live Games on Demand and Steam are not. The primary difference between the two is whether the game is stored on a local machine or not. This is not the case with OnLive, which is why the service is considered cloud gaming. However, with Steam, the Nintendo eShop, etc., games _are_ stored locally- you download them onto your computer's hard drive (or memory stick, etc.). This is not cloud gaming. It's simply a way for publishers and developers to get the game to you, without a CD/DVD. Also, although you usually require an Internet connection to access you games on both services, OnLive requires a constant connection to play whereas Steam only requires a connection to log in.



I download the game from the internet, in many cases I can also download it wherever I may be, I fire it across to friends via similar methods, my saves may well be stored remotely, if I am playing multiplayer there is likely so serious remote processing going and there is the ever present concept of metrics.

Now if I was going to make a case between thin client vs fat client I would be using arguments like yours, as far as cloud goes, despite cloud being about as nebulous a term as there ever was, I can not get there.


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## jumpman1229 (Nov 21, 2013)

HELL NO!
I want physical copies.


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## Skelletonike (Nov 21, 2013)

Out of all the games I have, only 4 or so were bought used and it was because I couldn't get them new anywhere else. The price difference between a new game and a used game is minimum, a new game over here costs in the 45€, whereas a used game costs around 30 to 35€, for that difference I'd much rather pay the 45€.

Another thing is that I enjoy having games on their release day, which makes me pre-order most of the games I want (besides, I end up saving money due to amazon's pre-order price guarantee).


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## Ryukouki (Nov 21, 2013)

Skelletonike said:


> Out of all the games I have, only 4 or so were bought used and it was because I couldn't get them new anywhere else. The price difference between a new game and a used game is minimum, a new game over here costs in the 45€, whereas a used game costs around 30 to 35€, for that difference I'd much rather pay the 45€.
> 
> Another thing is that I enjoy having games on their release day, which makes me pre-order most of the games I want (*besides, I end up saving money due to amazon's pre-order price guarantee*).


 

I'm always saving $0.03.


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## LockeCole_101629 (Nov 21, 2013)

15 euro difference is a lot
the only downside of used games (for me) is actually paying shipping cost.

there are no gamestop here, but even without it, human will always try to trade for something and get a better deal.
even if it's digital, I've seen so much people selling their account (Steam/xbox/psn/mmo games).


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## Ryukouki (Nov 21, 2013)

Doesn't necessarily have to be a Gamestop store. It could be any used retailer that is in your area. I was just using GameStop as an example of sorts, there are plenty of other examples.


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## The Real Jdbye (Nov 21, 2013)

This question is moot, in the future used game sales and cloud gaming will be integrated into one and you will be able to resell your digital games.
That said I don't think sales of physical copies of any sort will die out as long as you don't have the ability to lend your digital copies to a friend or resell them.


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## Skelletonike (Nov 21, 2013)

Ryukouki said:


> I'm always saving $0.03.


In most cases I tend to save 12£ which is 20$. Since I get games with pre-orders around 22£ and their release price ends up being 34£.


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## codezer0 (Nov 21, 2013)

Used games are still going to be needed, especially when you consider the alternatives as of current.

Given the ubiquity of Gamestop, and the draconian DRM that has become the norm rather than the exception, the used game market for PC's of any kind (or OS) has effectively been killed for anything that is not more than several years old, or by some miracle does not require some kind of convoluted activation system to run. I think the last game that I came across for PC that did not need some kind of serial/activation limit was oddly enough Mass Effect 2. Instead, that game rather limits you in terms of the appropriate DLC that would be available if you got the disc second-hand. At the least you could _play_ the core game, though.  And as we see there, for many it's a forgone conclusion that PC gaming isn't relevant to them. Entire genres are not even acknowledged or available on the platform. The last actual sports game that I am aware of even being available for PC was Madden 2000... which I stress was more than a decade ago. The last fighting game that got any announcement or press of even existing for PC was vanilla Street Fighter 4. I didn't even know that SF X Tekken was ever released for PC until someone pointed it out to me on Steam.

Yet comparatively, at the least used games can keep someone being able to at least try to find a hidden gem or an overlooked game that they weren't able to get while it was still in print. This is especially true for systems and platforms that were around before the ability to even download and retain games was even possible. For systems like this especially, the ability to at least be able to find a copy second-hand is not only valuable, but could very well be mandatory in my opinion.

That's also one of the reasons that I personally hate Gamestops... their obnoxious attitude about what they choose to carry or not, and the kind of insane markups is stressful, in the kindest way I can put it. They won't take guides, pc games, and you're SOL if you want anything from less than the current-gen. They didn't even give the Dreamcast _24 hours_ after Sega's announcement to exit the hardware business before they just stopped carrying or accepting anything for the system, even though there were still games in the pipeline to be released for it.

Digital would be a way to at least preserve the availability for classics and particularly good games in one way, but it's not without its problems either. One of the many problems is of course the fact that the servers needed to access them could just up and die. The original Xbox was one of the first consoles to have the ability to actually download full games from a technical standpoint. But as we all know by now, Microsoft pulled the plug on the ability for those systems to access the network years ago. I would fully expect the same for the 360 now that the X1 is out; obviously not know, but you'd be a fool to think they won't sooner or later.

The other problem with digital, especially for any non-PC platform, is the fact that the marketplace seems to completely ignore the fact that many consumers know that it doesn't cost them as much to offer it digitally as it would be to put it on a physical medium. So without some kind of cost savings, there is no incentive to get it digitally. I certainly would rather hunt at the chance to get GTA Vice City for $10 on disc than to spend $40 to get it as "games on demand" on the xbox, and so on. Nintendo will still charge the same amount (with sales tax!) to get the same game digitally... but then if I don't like the game, I'm stuck. There's no way to 'return' it to at least maybe put the credit toward a better game. I feel more aggravated with the $3 I spent for that awful dream radar 'app' than the $30 I paid for Project X Zone. While I couldn't do this as much growing up, one other thing I did appreciate was being able to share and let a friend borrow a game or borrow one of theirs on a physical copy. That's something that you still can't do with digital no matter who it's from.

I could go on, and that's part of the problem... for me this is a hugely weighted topic with a lot of history, and as of this time I don't have enough time to extrapolate on it properly.


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## grossaffe (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm a proponent of used game sales.  First off, they provide a competition to new games helping to drive down the costs as time goes.  They also provide incentive to game makers to give their games lasting value; if someone thinks the game is worth keeping, it won't find it's way to the used game market.  There's the obvious part where used games will allow people to buy and experience games they otherwise did not have the money to purchase.

One thing, however, that people often neglect, is who is selling these used games in the first place, and I'm not talking Gamestop.  I mean the original purchasers of the game new; the people who put money into the pockets of the game makers.  Even they only have so much money to purchase new games, and when they sell their games, it provides them with the money to buy  more new games, thus the money from used game sales does indirectly bring a piece back to the game makers.

The most important thing, though, for me, is the freedom to do as we please with what we own.


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## calmwaters (Nov 21, 2013)

*Looks at Adobe* Nope, I'll be sticking with physical items. The cloud might appear light at first, but then thunder clouds start forming and then normally that very same day, those clouds start pouring rain on the earth. Hopefully it won't rain so much that places get flooded, but still.

If a game isn't in its shrinkwrap, then it's used. Now there are people out there who take excellent care of them and make sure they don't get scuffed up (I am such a person) and this is the way it's supposed to be. But I buy used games because I want as large a library as possible while still keeping money in my bank account. Buying games for $50 tends to get expensive real quick.


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## Luigi2012SM64DS (Nov 22, 2013)

Sorry for being that guy, but next gen gaming was here like a year ago with the Wii U.

Anyways, no. I think that used games and stuff like that should stay. With cloud gaming you have to pay for your internet, the game and what not but with a used game you can get it without needing internet.
Not to mention that people in developing countries that have shitty internet (been there, done that.) can't download anything at 54kb/s.


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## Kirito-kun (Nov 22, 2013)

Like it or not, physical copies are on their way out, and I'm looking forward to the day they die out completely.

What happens when you loose or can't find your disc? You're screwed.
What happens when you scratch your disc? You're screwed.
What happens when a natural or artificial event destroys your disc? You're screwed.
What happens when you're travelling? You're baggage fee is screwed.
What happens when people buy used games? Developers are screwed.
What happens when you want to dispose of old games or broken games? The environment is screwed.
What happens when you want to quickly find a game from your large collection? Your time is screwed.

Buying a new game:

Digital: Click mouse, $10 charged from credit card (Steam sale), wait a while, play
Physical: Drive to store, try to find game, sold out, fail to find game, drive to different store, find game, buy game for $50, drive back, play

Pirating a new game:

Digital: Click mouse, wait a while, install crack, play
Physical: Nope.avi

Getting a game on launch day:

Digital: Wait in the warmth of your home
Physical: Wait in the cold outside the store

And if you want DRM-free digital games, try GOG.com


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## FAST6191 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> Like it or not, physical copies are on their way out, and I'm looking forward to the day they die out completely.
> 
> What happens when you loose or can't find your disc? You're screwed.
> What happens when you scratch your disc? You're screwed.
> ...




"What happens when you loose or can't find your disc? You're screwed."
Possibly.
"What happens when you scratch your disc? You're screwed."
http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/sy...?menu=general_info&submenu=wup-repair-gi-disc
http://support.xbox.com/en-GB/xbox-360/games/disc-replacement-program
http://help.ea.com/uk/article/ea-uk-warranty-policy
"What happens when a natural or artificial event destroys your disc? You're screwed."
Flood, fire, lightning and more insurance exists.
"What happens when you're travelling? You're baggage fee is screwed."
There is insurance here as well.
"What happens when people buy used games? Developers are screwed."
Do elaborate. There are no more copies of the game out there than they originally released.
"What happens when you want to dispose of old games or broken games? The environment is screwed."
I must admit I have not looked into disc recycling. One search later
http://www.startuk.org/at-home/recycling-a-z/cds-and-dvds.aspx
"What happens when you want to quickly find a game from your large collection? Your time is screwed."
That is what we call reaching, still this is why we have a system. Or a system.

"Buying a new game:

Digital: Click mouse, $10 charged from credit card (Steam sale), wait a while, play
Physical: Drive to store, try to find game, sold out, fail to find game, drive to different store, find game, buy game for $50, drive back, play"

Really? I tend click a button on amazon myself. Similarly a trip to the second hand shop is interesting to see what I might actually find.

"Pirating a new game:

Digital: Click mouse, wait a while, install crack, play
Physical: Nope.avi"

Do game rentals not exist any more? Borrowing it from a friend and copying it manually?

"Getting a game on launch day:

Digital: Wait in the warmth of your home
Physical: Wait in the cold outside the store"

Again I click on a button on Amazon and depending upon the postal system I may even be playing it pre release and if not by the time I return to the house. Of course this is assuming I am fool enough to play something before at least the first round of bug patches.


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## codezer0 (Nov 22, 2013)

Spoken like someone that hadn't touched a video game system since before downloading was even possible.


Kirito-kun said:


> Like it or not, physical copies are on their way out, and I'm looking forward to the day they die out completely.
> 
> What happens when you loose or can't find your disc? You're screwed.


 Probably about the one thing PC has a leg up on consoles. At the least you could simply re-download and burn the ISO at that point if the manufacturer won't help. Long as you got the case proving your purchase.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you scratch your disc? You're screwed.


Scratched disc? There are ways to repair those discs now... even BluRays. Not free, but available... somewhere. I suppose the trick is knowing of a place that can do it. If I still lived on the east coast, I might have agreed with you. Gamestops make it seem like there's no other choice... but that just makes it all the more liberating when you can find an alternative, because chances are they will have this service.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when a natural or artificial event destroys your disc? You're screwed.


there is insurance to help reimburse the costs to find replacement.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you're travelling? You're baggage fee is screwed.


Uh, one simple way is to secure it or don't bring it there. That's one incentive to mod your consoles anyway... that way instead of bringing those precious discs around for TSA to manhandle, you just bring the external drive to load them up from.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when people buy used games? Developers are screwed.


Oh, I'd _love_ to hear how you plan on substantiating this claim. I've yet to read/hear one single explanation that made any amount of sense, and the only ones speaking so vehemently against it are usually *publishers* rather than any actual *developer*.

As a card-carrying member of the IGDA, even developers _in the field and making games now_ don't think much of the used games somehow "screwing them". The only ones that were even aware that was some kind of issue were those that worked for studios that also published the games.

Here's a simple way to keep it in mind. Publisher : Developer as RIAA : musicians. Or did you not even take your SAT's? The content of your post makes me think you're not old enough to do so.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you want to dispose of old games or broken games? The environment is screwed.


Why would you want to dispose of an old game as long as it works? Not to mention there are people - clearly more skilled than you - capable of repairing most such 'broken' games. Most cartridge games can be easily restored to function and form with some disassembly and cleaning. A disc game might need a resurfacing (or few) to get working again... and with the right tools you could then do repairs that would afflict the majority of systems. Only some more serious problems would need more advanced hardware, which has only really started being a problem with the more recent generations of consoles.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you want to quickly find a game from your large collection? Your time is screwed.


Okay, seriously, how *expletive* spoiled are you that you actually consider looking through your game collection a _chore?_



Kirito-kun said:


> Buying a new game:
> 
> Digital: Click mouse, $10 charged from credit card (Steam sale), wait a while, play
> Physical: Drive to store, try to find game, sold out, fail to find game, drive to different store, find game, buy game for $50, drive back, play


Your digital one falls apart the moment you factor in things like:

Internet data caps
Less-than-perfect internet connection
Possibly a dialup connection, or satellite
Lack of credit card, for some
You yourself can't seem to decide whether we're talking about PC's or consoles
On the PC end, yes you might find a sale... which is all well and good, assuming that the sale itself doesn't come with additional clauses, like requiring the install of (eugh) EA's Origin, or that you're somehow not banned from their service. Or that even if you were able to get approved and got it installed, that it actually works. On the console end, you'll have likely gone through your fourth console before the given console maker's marketplace discounts a damn thing on their services... and that's one of my biggest gripes with digital. Not to mention how some systems arbitrarily deny you access to your own game if you can't sign in online for whatever reason. 



Kirito-kun said:


> Pirating a new game:
> 
> Digital: Click mouse, wait a while, install crack, play
> Physical: Nope.avi


Looks like someone hasn't heard of:

CD/DVD/Bluray burners
flashcards/carts
console modifications
daemon tools or Alcohol 52%




Kirito-kun said:


> Getting a game on launch day:
> 
> Digital: Wait in the warmth of your home
> Physical: Wait in the cold outside the store
> ...


Or, you could not be a prototypical neck-beard and just pick it up at a more convenient hour, like when you happen to be in the area of a preferred store.


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## trumpet-205 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you loose or can't find your disc? You're screwed.


What if a digital game got delisted? It happens frequently. What then?


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you scratch your disc? You're screwed.


Publishers offer disc exchange for scratched discs.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when a natural or artificial event destroys your disc? You're screwed.


Predicting future is a stupid idea. A place could crash right into my house and I die along with it. Someone could've detonate an EMP bomb that knocks off all electronic devices. Anything thing could've happen in the next moment.

All I can say is, take better care of your discs. If disc is damaged, blame it on yourselves, not the market.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you're travelling? You're baggage fee is screwed.


A true video game aficionado shouldn't let these be a problem. Apparently you are not. You can ship ahead, go backup, or simply don't bring them alone.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when people buy used games? Developers are screwed.


Dude, the only people who objects to used market is publisher, not developers. Developers already got their pay check when they signed an agreement with the publisher.

Beside, if you want to object to used market you better start with rental service and even public library. Neither of them gives publisher any money so we should outlaw rental service and close down public library, right?


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you want to dispose of old games or broken games? The environment is screwed.


What happens when you want to dispose old PC components, old console, old electronics, old cellphone, etc? If you really care about environment you can ship discs to specialized recycle facility.


Kirito-kun said:


> What happens when you want to quickly find a game from your large collection? Your time is screwed.


If you organize your stuff well, this ain't be a problem.


Kirito-kun said:


> Buying a new game:
> 
> Digital: Click mouse, $10 charged from credit card (Steam sale), wait a while, play
> Physical: Drive to store, try to find game, sold out, fail to find game, drive to different store, find game, buy game for $50, drive back, play


 
How about you go to Amazon.com and buy a physical games? That way you don't need to drive out and game will reach your mailbox.


Kirito-kun said:


> Pirating a new game:
> 
> Digital: Click mouse, wait a while, install crack, play
> Physical: Nope.avi


 
And you were worry about developers/publisher not getter their share of money because of used market? Piracy doesn't give them money either. Facepalm.


Kirito-kun said:


> Getting a game on launch day:
> 
> Digital: Wait in the warmth of your home
> Physical: Wait in the cold outside the store


Many physical pre-orders will ship early so that by launch date it'll reach your house.

*Furthermore, out of entire US population only 28% as of 2012 has individual broadband Internet subscription. This makes digital only distribution not practical for home console, movies, etc where size often goes for 3 GB and more. Many Americans are content with wireless broadband Internet. Some are forced to use dial up. Some didn't sign up for an Internet plan at all, relying on public Internet or workplace Internet instead.*


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## UltraHurricane (Nov 22, 2013)

Rayder said:


> Clouds tend to dry up and blow away. Just look at GFWL (Game For Windows Live, just in case you didn't know....or "god-awful", which is how I always see the GFWL acronym for some bizarre reason, heh) Unless there is some sort of bypass hack or patch released for Flatout UC (disc version) I'll be screwed for playing that game (especially if I wish to save the game progress) and it's one of my all time favorite games.


 
thats probably why cloud services like that fade into obscurity, they were just plain shit and nobody wanted to use them and they've kept being shit till the bitter end

but i don't think that same will happen with Steam anytime soon, they've already have so much support from all goodwill they've generated within their community, also their legendary sales don't hurt either


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> Buying a new game:
> 
> Digital: Click mouse, $10 charged from credit card (Steam sale), wait a while, play
> Physical: Drive to store, try to find game, sold out, fail to find game, drive to different store, find game, buy game for $50, drive back, play
> ...


 
The problem with this post is everything. You're talking about the absolute worst case scenarios of everything.

Not all games go on insane sales on Steam.

And why can't you wait? What does it matter to you? You're already at that point. Oh well, let's be honest, when physical copies go away.. there's going to be a lot less gamers.


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## Kirito-kun (Nov 22, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> ...





codezer0 said:


> ...





ShadowSoldier said:


> ...





trumpet-205 said:


> ...


 
Everyone seems to be arguing the same things so I'll explain my post to everyone at once.

*What happens when you loose or can't find your disc?*

You can't really argue against this one. People do loose games, and with digital distribution, this never happens. Even if it gets delisted, if you have the game already downloaded, you can still play it.

*What happens when you scratch your disc?*

Which is easier? Resurfacing the disk or... um... not having it happen at all?

*What happens when a natural or artificial event destroys your disc?*

What's better? Insurance claims or... um... not having it happen at all?

*What happens when you're travelling?*

It's easier to not have to bring physical disks in addition to your game system.

*What happens when you want to dispose of old games or broken games?*

What's better? Recycling or no waste at all.

*What happens when you want to quickly find a game from your large collection?*

It's still easier to just type the name of the game into the search bar.


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## trumpet-205 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> tl


 
* What if your hard drive crashed, you have no backup and games ended up delisted? Even if it is not delisted you'll be spending hours perhaps even days on downloading all those digital games (assuming your ISP does not impose bandwidth limit).
* Data are stored on the top layer, not the bottom layer where it is prone to scratching. Most of the time scratch is not deep enough to damage the data layer.
* Again take better care of your collection and stop blaming others because your inability to do so.
* It is easier to bring nothing with me while I travel, your point?
* Like I said, for a PC gaming fan (especially you), what are you going to do? Electronics, like GPU, are pretty harmful for the environment.
* No it is not easier to type in search bar, it is only easier if you want to be a potato coach.


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## codezer0 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> Everyone seems to be arguing the same things so I'll explain my post to everyone at once.
> 
> *What happens when you loose or can't find your disc?*
> 
> You can't really argue against this one. People do loose[sic] games, and with digital distribution, this never happens. Even if it gets delisted, if you have the game already downloaded, you can still play it.


you also apparently lose at grammar.

You can lose a digital game, too. Just ask anyone that's tried getting or keeping a vulnerable version of a game for use on the Vita, for instance. And in the case of the PS3 and Vita, if your game gets delisted, chances are you also lost the stored login credentials needed to play it, too. Unless you could use something like ReActPSN, you're boned there, too.

*


Kirito-kun said:



			What happens when you scratch your disc?
		
Click to expand...

*


Kirito-kun said:


> Which is easier? Resurfacing the disk or... um... not having it happen at all?


Short of defective optical drives (which I personally ran into far more often with Sony than any other console maker), it usually takes abusing your games to cause a scratch on the discs to begin with.

*


Kirito-kun said:



			What happens when a natural or artificial event destroys your disc?
		
Click to expand...

*


Kirito-kun said:


> What's better? Insurance claims or... um... not having it happen at all?


How about actually having the disc to keep playing, vs. some executive arbitrarily deciding to shut down your access to approve your ability to play the game?

Unlike digital, physical can actually continue to operate even when your internet is out. That's more than I can say for nearly every other kind of digital medium.

*


Kirito-kun said:



			What happens when you're travelling?
		
Click to expand...

*


Kirito-kun said:


> It's easier to not have to bring physical disks in addition to your game system.


Thank you for completely ignoring my point.  A Modded console with external storage is just as sturdy.

*


Kirito-kun said:



			What happens when you want to dispose of old games or broken games?
		
Click to expand...

*


Kirito-kun said:


> What's better? Recycling or no waste at all.


I'd like to know what it is you do for a living, _if you actually work and buy your games with your own money that is_, that you could afford to dispose of old or broken games. With your attitude and words, I'm not convinced.

*


Kirito-kun said:



			What happens when you want to quickly find a game from your large collection?
		
Click to expand...

*


Kirito-kun said:


> It's still easier to just type the name of the game into the search bar.


ASSuming that the platform even offers such a search capability, or that you have to go and delete your games to get something else... or that the platform you get it digitally actually even ALLOWS you to redownload... considering that it is still left in many a digital EULA that the distributor can revoke or limit your access to the game you just bought digitally...


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## Kirito-kun (Nov 22, 2013)

trumpet-205 said:


> * What if your hard drive crashed, you have no backup and games ended up delisted? Even if it is not delisted you'll be spending hours perhaps even days on downloading all those digital games (assuming your ISP does not impose bandwidth limit).
> * Data are stored on the top layer, not the bottom layer where it is prone to scratching. Most of the time scratch is not deep enough to damage the data layer.
> * Again take better care of your collection and stop blaming others because your inability to do so.
> * It is easier to bring nothing with me while I travel, your point?
> ...


 
The data layer of a disk doesn't have to be damaged. If the plastic gets damaged enough, the laser won't be able to pass through it properly and therefore it will be unable read the data layer underneath. Just because I game on PC doesn't mean I've never used optical medium. Severe scratches will make a disc unusable. If your hard drive dies? RAID 1. Google it.

We're just taking about convenience. I personally like to not worry about damaged discs.

Bring no discs in order to game or bring lots of discs so you can game. Which is easier? If you bring nothing, you can't game.

Not trying to eliminate waste, only reduce. If you can reduce waste even by a bit, that's better than nothing.

Is typing a word or two really that hard?



codezer0 said:


> you also apparently lose at grammar.


 
I don't see how my grammar is wrong.



codezer0 said:


> You can lose a digital game, too. Just ask anyone that's tried getting or keeping a vulnerable version of a game for use on the Vita, for instance. And in the case of the PS3 and Vita, if your game gets delisted, chances are you also lost the stored login credentials needed to play it, too. Unless you could use something like ReActPSN, you're boned there, too.


 
PC.



codezer0 said:


> Short of defective optical drives (which I personally ran into far more often with Sony than any other console maker), it usually takes abusing your games to cause a scratch on the discs to begin with.


 
It still happens. Can't happen with digital.



codezer0 said:


> How about actually having the disc to keep playing, vs. some executive arbitrarily deciding to shut down your access to approve your ability to play the game?
> 
> Unlike digital, physical can actually continue to operate even when your internet is out. That's more than I can say for nearly every other kind of digital medium.


 
PC.



codezer0 said:


> Thank you for completely ignoring my point.  A Modded console with external storage is just as sturdy.


 
You're literally creating digital medium from physical medium. And bring modding into the argument is like saying PC gaming is so cheap because you can pirate everything. It's not the intended usage.



codezer0 said:


> ASSuming that the platform even offers such a search capability, or that you have to go and delete your games to get something else... or that the platform you get it digitally actually even ALLOWS you to redownload... considering that it is still left in many a digital EULA that the distributor can revoke or limit your access to the game you just bought digitally...


 
PC.


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## trumpet-205 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> f your hard drive dies? RAID 1. Google it.


 
At least do some research before telling people to Google it. RAID 1 is not backup, nor means for data loss prevention. In fact RAID 1 compounds data failure rate since there is no way to distinguish which drive has the correct file in case you run into URE and/or bit error. RAID, with the exception of RAID 0, is all about uptime, with secondary effect such as performance increase. It will never be a means to otherwise.

Also like I said, broadband Internet is still not widely enough for digital only distribution era. In fact with the way ISP is imposing bandwidth limit, it'll be years before we are reaching there. By then 4K will even increase game size significantly.


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## Ryukouki (Nov 22, 2013)

Heh, keep it clean now guys.


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## Kirito-kun (Nov 22, 2013)

trumpet-205 said:


> Also like I said, broadband Internet is still not widely enough for digital only distribution era. In fact with the way ISP is imposing bandwidth limit, it'll be years before we are reaching there. By then 4K will even increase game size significantly.


 
So it'll take 30 seconds instead of 15 seconds once Google Fiber becomes popular. That's still tolerable.







Also, what do you mean by data loss prevention? Unless your drive dies or you accidentally corrupt or delete the file (which would be your fault if you do), I've never heard of a hard drive just loosing a file for no reason.


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## codezer0 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> tl;dr


So your common allegory is PC... Yea, let's look at that.

The fiascos of the limited installs for games like The Sims, Bioshock 1, Borderlands, or any recent game with SecuROM.

The DRM that makes many games practically un-installable both in the sense that you can't uninstall them to make room, nor can you actually install them at all because the glitches require the game to be successfully installed in the first place in order to apply the patch meant to fix them.

The always-on DRM that killed many a Ubisoft game, most famously Assassin's Creed 1&2.

Forget losing the game, losing the cd-key often can kill your ability to use the game, since you keep wanting to make losing the disc a "thing" to worry about, and are now talking about PC gaming specifically.

Or the games that are only available on EA Origin, and thus you could get banned access to just for someone moderating you on their forums.

Or trying to run an older game that won't work on anything made less than ten years ago, even though the hardware should be more than powerful to run it. That of course _won't_ work in DOSbox. 

PC started the whole activation/install limit _way_ before it was even a thing on the console scene.


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## trumpet-205 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> So it'll take 30 seconds instead of 15 seconds once Google Fiber becomes popular. That's still tolerable.
> 
> Also, what do you mean by data loss prevention? Unless your drive dies or you accidentally corrupt or delete the file (which would be your fault if you do), I've never heard of a hard drive just loosing a fire for no reason.


Google Fiber will never become popular. It is merely a stunt to show how uncompetitive broadband Internet is. To make Google Fiber available nationwide would require Google to invest hundreds of billions, something that will never happen (not in upcoming 30 years).

And yes, HDD do and will corrupt data on its own. This is called bit error where a bit is mistakenly written down. I.e. 0 to 1. Unless you have a way to validate file, such as checksum, you are taking a 50/50 chance with RAID 1. RAID itself cannot validate which file is not corrupted. I repeat, RAID will never be a means to be a backup or data loss prevention.


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## codezer0 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> So it'll take 30 seconds instead of 15 seconds once Google Fiber becomes popular. That's still tolerable.
> 
> Also, what do you mean by data loss prevention? Unless your drive dies or you accidentally corrupt or delete the file (which would be your fault if you do), I've never heard of a hard drive just loosing a file for no reason.


 I didn't think I'd see such a textbook case here of all places, but...




Damn.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun, do you remember when p1ng announced in the Shoutbox that you have two more strikes as far as your PC Master Race attitude is concerned before you get banned from the site? I do.

This is a thread about used games, not about PC, take your platform glorification elsewhere or keep it to yourself. I like PC gaming as much as the next guy, but you're really stretching it.


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## Kirito-kun (Nov 22, 2013)

codezer0 said:


> ...


 
Okay, let me rephrase my argument.

Steam.

You can also run any Windows program in compatibility mode all the way back to Windows 98 pretty sure.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 22, 2013)

Kirito-kun said:


> Okay, let me rephrase my argument.
> 
> Steam.
> 
> You can also run any Windows program in compatibility mode all the way back to Windows 98 pretty sure.


False due to numerous incompatibilities, sometimes a virtual machine or OS modification are your only options, but that's besides the point because this is a thread about _used games, not Steam or PC exclusively_.


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## Ryukouki (Nov 22, 2013)

How about this. The whole point of this discussion is about _used games. _If you want to go off and create a tangent about another issue, take it to a private message. Seriously.

EDIT: Do not get me wrong, I love having a solid discussion, but if it's going completely off the rails from the original target, then it's pointless.


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## codezer0 (Nov 22, 2013)

That's it, I'm out.


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## ShadowSoldier (Nov 22, 2013)

edit post after banning of kirito:

I think used game sales are good. I mean I only got a PS3 last year, does that mean that I'm not entitled to playing the older games without paying full price? I just think that if new games are bought, about 10 bucks go to developers. But if you buy a used game, then maybe 5 bucks or a certain percentage should go to developers/publishers as well.


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## p1ngpong (Nov 22, 2013)

Bye bye Kirito-kun, we all hated you.


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## Vengenceonu (Nov 22, 2013)

And like the French revolutions, the (console) Peasants will always rise up to Behead the Benevolant (PC Master race) King!


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## DrOctapu (Nov 22, 2013)

If they're going to sell digital distribution games as high as they are physical games, then fuck 'em. If you can't afford to be as good to us as Steam is then gtfo of digital distribution.


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## tbgtbg (Nov 22, 2013)

I am so sick of the whole they don't get a cut of used games argument. So what? If I buy a used book no one gets a cut of that either. It's called capitalism. Don't like it? Move to Cuba.


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## Deferet (Nov 22, 2013)

I think with the use of digital editions now starting to become more dominant, the game companies themselves should be able to let you "rent" a game like you would from gamefly, except that the video game company actually gets the money.  $5 for a couple days and if you like it than you can buy it.  There's no middleman, and you don't get stuck with games you don't like.  This will probably do away with places like gamestop, gamefly, and even blockbuster (the games division anyway) but it would be faster, cheaper, and no waiting for a game anymore (except download times).


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## FAST6191 (Nov 22, 2013)

For the record rental of software is/was a key part of IP law discussion and even got an act clarifying a lot of it in 1990. http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Computer_Software_Rental_Amendments_Act_of_1990 is a bit dry, I am trying to find a good link in more plain words but some searches based on that should be a good jumping off point.


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## LegendAssassinF (Nov 22, 2013)

If consoles had Steam sales there would be no issue switching to all digital... Bioshock 1+2+Infinite this week for 15$


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## crazyj3ss (Nov 25, 2013)

Deferet said:


> I think with the use of digital editions now starting to become more dominant, the game companies themselves should be able to let you "rent" a game like you would from gamefly, except that the video game company actually gets the money. $5 for a couple days and if you like it than you can buy it. There's no middleman, and you don't get stuck with games you don't like. This will probably do away with places like gamestop, gamefly, and even blockbuster (the games division anyway) but it would be faster, cheaper, and no waiting for a game anymore (except download times).


 

How exactly would that rid of GameStop?

And I laugh at 'faster' when the GameStop nearby is within walking distance of my place and it would take a million years for the game to download with the internet here, not including how much more of a pain it is when _everyone_ is downloading the same thing at once, specifically a retail size one. On top of that, it isn't always reliable and the thought of having to go through said download again should the need arise... *shivers*


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## Guild McCommunist (Nov 25, 2013)

crazyj3ss said:


> How exactly would that rid of GameStop?
> 
> And I laugh at 'faster' when the GameStop nearby is within walking distance of my place and it would take a million years for the game to download with the internet here, not including how much more of a pain it is when _everyone_ is downloading the same thing at once, specifically a retail size one. On top of that, it isn't always reliable and the thought of having to go through said download again should the need arise... *shivers*


 
"It's not the case for me so it's not the case for everyone!"

Also holy shit just use Amazon and be patient like an adult. Nearest Gamestop to me is 20 min drive. And Gamestop is shit anyway. As is any "video game store".


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## crazyj3ss (Nov 25, 2013)

The fact that a GameStop is nearby is pretty much icing on the cake when it comes to my post really. I was in no way trying to represent the masses with that.

What I'm trying to point out there is that there are a ton of people out in the same situation as myself where the internet isn't exactly golden, whether it be slow as hell/unreliable/combo/whatever. Downloading a retail sized game, specifically the bigger ones, can end up being an absolute nightmare, let alone having to do so when everyone and their grandma is also trying to download it... that was referring to Deferet's post.

I fail to see why I should just use Amazon if I can just run down the road a sec and pick a game up while I am out anyways. Down the road, online retailers definitely offer better deals(which I do look into, thank you) but I'm not going to cry over the few bucks I could save on launch days if it's available nearby.


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## Ziko (Nov 26, 2013)

DinohScene said:


> Cloud, neat invention if you have a permanent/stable/highspeed internet connection.
> You can't play games on the move then nor can you play them when your internet is down.
> 
> No, I'll stick with traditional media.


 
Agreed. You can't always take your net with you. 



qweesy777 said:


> Its such a rip off Gamestop sells the used version $5 or $10 bucks less than the new version..... yet they may give you $5 bucks if you trade it in to them. I only buy new games. I sold my playsation and Xbone 360. The dilemma is this since all of my gaming is on the 3DS and PC now, I would buy in the cloud IF it was half the price of the Physical cartridge...... The company doesn't have to make a cart, packaging,booklets or anything whatsoever so I feel they should pass the cheaper cost of the digital version down to the consumer, it literally costs them nothing to make the digital version......apart from the electric bill that it costs to run the computer. Until the industry moves this way I will continue to by NEW physical carts. As for gamestop used games......RIPOFF ALERT the $5 or $10 you'd save, you are not supporting the gaming industry and you help promote their ridiculous prices on USED games stop doing it vote with your dollars.


 
That makes perfect sense considering that it's no wonder people are buying digital vs. physical. At the same time though, it's just a sham because you feel like you've been had. Often the digital versions have bugs and other issues that physical rarely encounters so you kinda are gambling.


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## Deferet (Nov 27, 2013)

crazyj3ss said:


> How exactly would that rid of GameStop?
> 
> And I laugh at 'faster' when the GameStop nearby is within walking distance of my place and it would take a million years for the game to download with the internet here, not including how much more of a pain it is when _everyone_ is downloading the same thing at once, specifically a retail size one. On top of that, it isn't always reliable and the thought of having to go through said download again should the need arise... *shivers*


 

As someone who used to work for EB Games (yeah EB games that doesn't exist anymore), the games retail business has started losing money ever since download became available.  Most of their money is from used games, they make *maybe* $5 on every new game they sell, and $20 on every used game they sell.  Now that used games are on a decline, and digital downloads are rising, Gamestop's main source of income, Used Games, are going to be threatened.  Just like how blockbuster has vanished, that local gamestore will eventually have to either go online to compete or just slowly vanish.  People are creatures on convenience, and because downloads are more convenient, they will slowly, but surely, gravitate towards downloading and having all their games on their HDs so that they no longer have to get up and switch games, or even have to remember where their games are.  With the new features from Xbox, being able to play your games from the cloud on any Xbox you're on, the would relieve some of the tension of having to bring your games over to a friend's house to play.  All in all, this trend has already started, and before long Gamestop will eventually go the way of Blockbuster, and there will be less and less physical disks running around, especially as game companies realize that games will cost less to produce if they don't need to make disks, they want to maximize profits by reducing costs.

I'm not saying this because I want it, quite the opposite in fact.  I used to love (and still do for the most part) opening a brand new game.  Ripping the plastic off the box and getting to the actual cartridge (NES and SNES back in the day) and opening the game manual and reading through it before I could get home, and the moment I did, I would get everything ready, TV on, curtains closed, door shut before putting in the new game so I could see every little detail before the game even started.  It was the little things like this that added to the anticipation of playing the game and some of the things I will miss.  I still miss being able to go to the video store and getting to pick out a movie or a game to rent, and feel sad that my kids won't get to experience that because everything is at our fingertips now.  You want to watch a movie, you can stream it on netflix, you want to play a game, just download it.  There's no longer a need to leave the house, it's sad.


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## codezer0 (Nov 27, 2013)

See, I think the thing is that many people that were for the Xbox One's original DRM plan were only so doing because they thought it would finally mean the end of GameStop and its obnoxious business practices and policies. The problem is that if you read it carefully, you'd realize that the xbox one would have had this for only _authorized retailers_ could resell the games... of which of course Gamestop was going to sign up to be one. So it wouldn't have got rid of them at all. Instead it would have gotten rid of the smaller, independent stores' ability to deal with used games for those systems, and made Gamestop's grip even more draconian and ridiculous. And believe me, I want to see Gamestop get their just desserts as much as anyone else here with an axe to grind with that god-forsaken chain. It's bad enough here on the West Coast, but it's even worse on the East coast because they have effectively killed off all competition in terms of any reselling of video game merchandise... and they are extremely arbitrary of what they will accept, much less pay for. The amount of issues I have with them would be far too numerous to list at this time, and not really serve this thread any.

There definitely does need to be a more sensibile approach to used games... and one that gets the corporate bean counters out of the process as much as possible, if not completely. That much is certain.


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## Videomanman87 (Nov 30, 2013)

In my mind, a publisher usually has a "print" run of so many copies. In general they don't have a second run. And as you know some games become hard to find later on for this reason. Therefore when you buy a used game, it is usually already "done". They already figured in how many copies to make a profit, or how many they wanted to do. The industry has already been paid. Sure if a game really "flops" and no one buys it at all then that is another story, however in that case it is usually easy to find brand new sealed copies for reasonable prices. And most people, if given the choice, will buy a sealed copy rather than a used one, if the prices is right.

So again "used" copies do not harm the industry. Does having used cars hurt the automobile industry? How about used houses? Or by that same idea, libraries should be banned because it hurts the book publishing industry. I first saw the article mentioned in this post and rolled my eyes. The writer clearly has no real conception on how the used industry works. I will agree though that at some used sellers, they charge more than they should for a used copy, but do I think it is killing the industry? No.

*Edit*
I also think that downloads are going to be more and more popular.  But what I don't like is you buy a game, then it can go poof at any time from the store, and if your copy fails, many times you can't get it again.  Or make a backup.  This is why I buy many of my games from sources such as GOG instead of steam.  Steam you can't backup quite as easily and always need a internet connection (or at least sometimes) to validate you own the game.  If steam ever goes down, guess what, so does your vast game library.   And I don't trust companies to "always be around".  I think this is what Xbox fans were afraid of, loosing the games they purchased and no longer being able to "always have them" on a disc.  Also for the true game collector, there is nothing like having the game in its original box etc.  Oo I have the original download on this HD.  Umm?  Where is the fun in that for a collector?  It certainly takes the fun out of it for me.  But I realize that collectors vs general players are vastly outnumbered, and the industry is going to cater to the larger size.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 2, 2013)

codezer0 said:


> See, I think the thing is that many people that were for the Xbox One's original DRM plan were only so doing because they thought it would finally mean the end of GameStop and its obnoxious business practices and policies. The problem is that if you read it carefully, you'd realize that the xbox one would have had this for only _authorized retailers_ could resell the games... of which of course Gamestop was going to sign up to be one. So it wouldn't have got rid of them at all. Instead it would have gotten rid of the smaller, independent stores' ability to deal with used games for those systems, and made Gamestop's grip even more draconian and ridiculous. And believe me, I want to see Gamestop get their just desserts as much as anyone else here with an axe to grind with that god-forsaken chain. It's bad enough here on the West Coast, but it's even worse on the East coast because they have effectively killed off all competition in terms of any reselling of video game merchandise... and they are extremely arbitrary of what they will accept, much less pay for. The amount of issues I have with them would be far too numerous to list at this time, and not really serve this thread any.
> 
> There definitely does need to be a more sensibile approach to used games... and one that gets the corporate bean counters out of the process as much as possible, if not completely. That much is certain.


 
To be fair people act like Gamestop is by far the largest game retailer and it's pretty not even up there with a general retailer (Wal-Mart, Target, or Amazon).

Everyone hates Gamestop because they milk you out of your trade-ins. Good luck finding another place to trade in a bunch of old, useless games for new ones. Like you can just keep your games and pay for new ones honestly.

I mean you can complain that Gamestop "killed off" its competition but what other big name brands were better than Gamestop? Anything that's a small mom-and-pop store doesn't deal in the same market as Gamestop. They probably do something like retro games. Plus we all know the only mom-and-pop nerd dens that stay around are TG stores.


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## codezer0 (Dec 2, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> To be fair people act like Gamestop is by far the largest game retailer and it's pretty not even up there with a general retailer (Wal-Mart, Target, or Amazon).
> 
> Everyone hates Gamestop because they milk you out of your trade-ins. Good luck finding another place to trade in a bunch of old, useless games for new ones. Like you can just keep your games and pay for new ones honestly.
> 
> I mean you can complain that Gamestop "killed off" its competition but what other big name brands were better than Gamestop? Anything that's a small mom-and-pop store doesn't deal in the same market as Gamestop. They probably do something like retro games. Plus we all know the only mom-and-pop nerd dens that stay around are TG stores.


Gamestop could easily afford to accommodate for retro and current gaming with ease, considering the kind of revenue they bring in. Yet this is the same company that...

Didn't even give the Dreamcast _24 hours_ after Sega's announcement to end its model as a console hardware maker, before refusing to carry or accept any and all dreamcast merchandise in stores, even though there were still games that weren't released yet for the system
Has actively snuffed out anything resembling a sleeper hit or hidden gem in favor of "dude brah" crap...
... Unless you have the financial means to afford to "pre-or-duh" about 100 copies per store
Can't even be bothered to keep services and policies between its individual stores straight
Make you pay for a discount card that doesn't offer any relevant discounts at all
Sign you up for a rewards program *against your will* with unreasonably high requirements to get anything of any meritable worth
Believe me, Gamestop earns its hatred justifiably. Even moreso in districts where not even pawn shops are able to accept video game merch because then you really don't have any other choice or alternative.

It's worse than the situation in Australia that got so bad as to force many users living in those countries to modchip their systems, just so they could actually have games to play on them in the first place. It's like the situation where $ony sued Lik-sang out of existence, except with everything they sell.

If anything, I'm grateful that I moved to a location where there are much better stores to visit where I'm much more likely to find what I want. But I remember all too well how there really were no alternatives back where I used to live, and it is distressing every time I end up setting foot near a gamestop anymore _because_ I remember those horrible experiences all too well.


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## Gahars (Dec 2, 2013)

codezer0 said:


> Gamestop could easily afford to accommodate for retro and current gaming with ease, considering the kind of revenue they bring in. Yet this is the same company that...
> 
> Didn't even give the Dreamcast _24 hours_ after Sega's announcement to end its model as a console hardware maker, before refusing to carry or accept any and all dreamcast merchandise in stores, even though there were still games that weren't released yet for the system


 
Why shouldn't they? A dead console is worthless beyond an incredibly niche market of collectors. If they're not going to make a reasonable amount of money off it, why bother stocking it when they could use that valuable space for things that will actually sell?



> Has actively snuffed out anything resembling a sleeper hit or hidden gem in favor of "dude brah" crap...
> 
> ... Unless you have the financial means to afford to "pre-or-duh" about 100 copies per store


 
Gamestop isn't just offering the products people buy first and foremost - it's a conspiracy!

Seriously, man, movie theaters project less than you.



> Can't even be bothered to keep services and policies between its individual stores straight


 
Or they offer individual stores a much needed degree of autonomy so that they can tailor themselves to their particular location.



> Make you pay for a discount card that doesn't offer any relevant discounts at all


 
Yes, I really hate it when the Gamestop clerk puts a gun to my forehead and forces me to pay for the discount card. I have absolutely no choice in the manner whatsoever!



> Sign you up for a rewards program *against your will* with unreasonably high requirements to get anything of any meritable worth



Truly this is modern day slavery.

Too bad you can't just, you know, ignore it. Oh wait, never mind, you totally can.



> Believe me, Gamestop earns its hatred justifiably. Even moreso in districts where not even pawn shops are able to accept video game merch because then you really don't have any other choice or alternative.


 
What, did they wipe eBay, Craigslist, and the rest of the Internet from existence? Damn you, Gamestop, you've gone too far this time!



> It's worse than the situation in Australia that got so bad as to force many users living in those countries to modchip their systems, just so they could actually have games to play on them in the first place. It's like the situation where $ony sued Lik-sang out of existence, except with everything they sell.


 
If you're referring the pricing on Australian games, that's not just limited to Gamestop. Games are marked up ridiculously high in Australia, even on Steam.



> If anything, I'm grateful that I moved to a location where there are much better stores to visit where I'm much more likely to find what I want. But I remember all too well how there really were no alternatives back where I used to live, and it is distressing every time I end up setting foot near a gamestop anymore _because_ I remember those horrible experiences all too well.


 
Trigger Warning: Gamestop


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## codezer0 (Dec 2, 2013)

See, now I know you're just trying to goad me into a negative response...

As for the dreamcast, at the time there were still new games being made for the system. There was still plenty out there coming out for the rest of the year; there was no reason to _not_ conitnue supporting the console other than their collective elitism. And in case you have been living under a rock lately, _retro_ is very _chic_ now. They won't make room for retro systems that are still popular which (I'm partly surprised in saying this) includes the PS2, but then they'll occupy their display cases with leapfrog ching-chong tablets and used iPhones. Last I checked, the logo on the front says _Game_stop, not _Toy_stop.

I'd have less problem with individual autonomy between stores, if they'd clarified that it was something _that individual store can do_, and not try to misrepresent that it is something *GameStop in General* could or could not do. I've had numerous instances of where I had to physically get myself through at least five different locations in a day on account of one claiming having something I did want in stock, and then _only_ when I finally get to where it actually was, would they tell me that they had a service where t hey could have something specific like it shipped to the store that would have been physically closest to me... yet the same store in question wouldn't even acknowledge that that is a service they would offer in the first place. QED, when it finally became time to buy a CECH(A/B) PS3, upon returning the first one, they instructed me to go to another location more than 20 miles away from me to get a replacement. As I was checking out, _store B_ in this case would tell me about the service... and I tell them how they wouldn't even _offer_ that ability. Even they looked at me like "uh, that's a corporate thing. they're supposed to provide that service to you." Inconsistency!

At the time that I did preorder Arkham Asylum, they wanted my phone number. I was still on a limited-minutes plan, and no text contract. Gamestop sent me 5 text messages a day from the week it was about to come out... to the tune of 25 cents/message tacked on my phone bill. When I went to pick up the game, _from the same guy I initiated the preorder no less_, he refused to acknowledge any responsibility for the screw-up and refer me to call their corporate number. Corporate insisted that I simply reply STOP to the messages, and wouldn't comprehend that the plan I was on meant I would be paying MORE money to do so. Their cupid stunt cost me an extra $20 they refused to compensate me on on my phone bill that following month.

More recently, when I went to pick up WWE '13, they were trying to pressure me to get their rewards card. I very emphatically said no, every time. Yet I turn around for a second and reach for my bag, and yet along with my copy of the game, there was another stupid reward card signed up to me. *WHY?!* because they're *expletive* that's why. And even on their rewards catalog, you'd have to spend like $1000 a month in new merch to make enough points for anything even halfway merit-able. Their so-called discounts doesn't even apply to anything that I would get there on any regular basis. And on more than one occasion across several individual outlets, were there incidents that my local circle of friends and I received a used copy of a game sold as "new." Yet there was nothing that could be done because they were the only retailer that in some counties, _can_ be allowed to carry used game merchandise.

Ebay? Three words: *lack of trust*. eBay wanted $70 for just the disc copy of _Bust A groove_ for PS1, and $1000 for a "new" BC PS3. And with my luck, all I would have got even if I could pay that kind of money was a ps3 box filled with cement bricks. And before you say "just buy from a trusted seller", there is no such thing. And eBay in itself has no checks and balances in place for such BS.

Craigslist? More like serial killer list. The amount of blatantly broken merchandise sold as "like new" on the site manages to be worse than Goodwill.

Selling on the internet also comes with significant barriers of entry unless you're already doing like thousands in business a week.

You wouldn't understand, because you've been having to live with their crap for so long you don't know any better.


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## Gahars (Dec 2, 2013)

codezer0 said:


> See, now I know you're just trying to goad me into a negative response...


 
Nope. It's a shame, really, because this would've been an A+ result.



codezer0 said:


> As for the dreamcast, at the time there were still new games being made for the system. There was still plenty out there coming out for the rest of the year; there was no reason to _not_ conitnue supporting the console other than their collective elitism.


 
Or, you know, the fact that titles for a dead system aren't going to sell well? There's nothing elitist about it. Gamestop is a business; they'll do what makes them money. This really isn't too difficult.



codezer0 said:


> And in case you have been living under a rock lately, _retro_ is very _chic_ now. They won't make room for retro systems that are still popular which (I'm partly surprised in saying this) includes the PS2, but then they'll occupy their display cases with leapfrog *ching-chong* tablets and used iPhones. Last I checked, the logo on the front says _Game_stop, not _Toy_stop.


 
Pffft no. The average consumer that Gamestop aims for doesn't give two shits about "retro gaming," so of course that's not going to be a priority. If they're selling those items, it's because there's a large enough demand whether you care for them or not.



codezer0 said:


> At the time that I did preorder Arkham Asylum, they wanted my phone number. I was still on a limited-minutes plan, and no text contract. Gamestop sent me 5 text messages a day from the week it was about to come out... to the tune of 25 cents/message tacked on my phone bill. When I went to pick up the game, _from the same guy I initiated the preorder no less_, he refused to acknowledge any responsibility for the screw-up and refer me to call their corporate number. Corporate insisted that I simply reply STOP to the messages, and wouldn't comprehend that the plan I was on meant I would be paying MORE money to do so. Their cupid stunt cost me an extra $20 they refused to compensate me on on my phone bill that following month.


 
It would've cost you more than $20 to send one text message? And why not use a home phone number?



codezer0 said:


> More recently, when I went to pick up WWE '13, they were trying to pressure me to get their rewards card. I very emphatically said no, every time. Yet I turn around for a second and reach for my bag, and yet along with my copy of the game, there was another stupid reward card signed up to me. *WHY?!* because they're *expletive* that's why.


 
A free promotional card you're free to throw in the trash. Those fucking bastards, man...



codezer0 said:


> And even on their rewards catalog, you'd have to spend like $1000 a month in new merch to make enough points for anything even halfway merit-able. Their so-called discounts doesn't even apply to anything that I would get there on any regular basis.


 
I'm sorry that I have to break this to you, but that's how rewards programs in general work. They're designed first and foremost to get consumers to throw money at the store. Good thing they're completely incidental and stupidly easy to ignore, though.

Also, just because a program doesn't offer deals that appeal specifically to you doesn't mean it's a bad program.



codezer0 said:


> Ebay? Three words: *lack of trust*. eBay wanted $70 for just the disc copy of _Bust A groove_ for PS1, and $1000 for a "new" BC PS3. And with my luck, all I would have got even if I could pay that kind of money was a ps3 box filled with cement bricks. And before you say "just buy from a trusted seller", there is no such thing. And eBay in itself has no checks and balances in place for such BS.
> 
> Craigslist? More like serial killer list. The amount of blatantly broken merchandise sold as "like new" on the site manages to be worse than Goodwill.
> 
> Selling on the internet also comes with significant barriers of entry unless you're already doing like thousands in business a week.


 
These are some of the worst excuses I've heard in a good long while. Seriously, it really isn't that hard as long as you have just a little common sense and patience.



codezer0 said:


> You wouldn't understand, because you've been having to live with their crap for so long you don't know any better.


 
Pffft no 2: Electric Boogaloo.

I don't like Gamestop, but that doesn't mean they're evil or corrupt or elitist or whatever insult people want to throw at them. At the end of the day, they're just another company with plenty of competition. If you don't want to take the initiative, that's your choice and that's fine, but don't turn around and act as if they forced you into it.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 4, 2013)

Hey guys, remember when Gamestop was the only place that would sell copies of Xenoblade? A RPG on a console that was both dead and where RPGs bombed?

Remember that guys?

Nah fuck that they only care about DUDE BRAH crap.

Even though they still sell most of the games from weaboo garbage to Call of Duty.

But yes, let's cry about it because we can.


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## Hells Malice (Dec 4, 2013)

Codezer0 I can't tell if you're a troll or just genuinely batshit fucking insane.
Your entire argument towards everything should be read and agreed with while wearing a tinfoil hat.


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## codezer0 (Dec 4, 2013)

Well _excuse me_ if I tend to prefer being able to verify something is new/good/working before putting my dollars down to get it instead of buying sight unseen.

Also, growing up I certainly didn't have access to a credit card, or even a computer with internet access until I was already in high school. So for several years of my playing history, Gamestop really was the only choice to find games that I either couldn't afford new or were out of print. The only time my selection ever varied was when I could afford to buy something new. And usually in those cases I definitely went to other stores with more generous return policies because gamestop was so notoriously obnoxious. But, if I couldn't afford a game outright, it was back to those *expletive*s because I couldn't find anyone else willing to buy what I wanted or needed to sell. It's just bloody ironic that when they were still separate chains, gamestop did have better rates and return policies than EB games.... but as soon as the buggers merged,  they each adopted the worst practices of both and left us all screwed over. And yes, there are indeed communities with local laws that actually _prevent_ a standard pawn shop from being able to accept or hawk video game merchandise of any sort... yet for some bloody legal loophole, you could find not one, but no less than *FOUR* gamestops in the same community.

Then when eBay existed, all the stories in print, on TV and online were the same. Someone getting scammed here. someone selling a PSP _box_ and then getting an empty box. some other person selling a 360 at launch and stuffing the box with a cement brick to fool shippers and the recipient until it was too late. So, no, i will never, ever trust ebay on principle. Especially when it comes down to when there is something I do want that can *only* be had on ebay anymore, they deliberately mark up the price to beyond ridiculousness. The fact that they have the audacity to sell a broadband adapter that MSRP'd for $30 for no less than $200 ever for the Dreamcast is *expletive* ridiculous, and I will never forgive the site or its sellers for it.

It was distressing... and I certainly didn't know what else to do, until I took a vacation on the west coast, and discovered a smaller chain, with larger stores, called _Bookman's_... And it opened up my eyes to the shit that gamestop really was. How?

They actually _will_ accept strategy guides
They will accept PC games - provided they don't have some kind of crazy DRM that prevents another who buys it second-hand from being able to use it, mind. Still, with that policy is why I was able to ever find a fresh copy of System Shock 2
They accept older and retro games
For _most_ things, they are actually priced very reasonably, and they've a very reasonable return policy on top of it
You get a far better overall return for *cash* than Gamestop would give in store credit
And that's just on the video games alone.

More recently another independent place opened up not too far from where I live now, that is also very competitive with the place. Yes, rare stuff commands a higher rate. Yet thanks to them, I was able to get a limited edition copy of _Project X Zone_ for less expensive than gamestop would ask for a regular used copy. And *both* places have a general attitude and service that makes me want to come back, instead of dealing with the entitled pricks at every single gamestop I've had the misfortune of setting foot in.


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## tbgtbg (Dec 4, 2013)

Buying used at Gamestop might "only be $5 less than new" but if you wait for a sale like buy 2 get 1 free, it's a lot better. Furthermore, the return policy on used games is a lot better than you're ever going to get for new. Buy a new game anywhere, pop it in (or better yet, wait a few hours to download it, feh), find out it sucks a llama's rectum? Tough shit. Buy a used game at GS, don't like it? Take it back, get something else.

Yeah, it would be nice if GS charged less for used games, but it would be nicer still if everyone had sensible return policies that didn't hold you by the balls once you put your money down. There's never going to be such a thing for digital/cloud games. They don't just have you by the balls, they have a knife in the other hand are about to have you singing soprano.


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