# Nintendo Sues Companies Over Selling DS Cards



## Pyrate02 (May 13, 2010)

Hey all:

Well, apparently, Nintendo is at it again.  A lawsuit was filed in Washington State this week against several websites and its owner for selling DS cards.  I have attached a copy of the complaint for all to read....

Feel free yall to send the attorney for the dark side some love letters...

Susan D. Fahringer, WSBA No. 21567
[email protected]
Charles C. Sipos, WSBA No. 32825
[email protected]
Perkins Coie LLP
1201 Third Avenue, Suite 4800
Seattle, WA 98101-3099
Telephone: 206.359.8000 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              206.359.8000             206.359.80
0              206.359.8000
Facsimile: 206.359.9000

HELP KEVIN!


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## Berthenk (May 13, 2010)

Wow, no Cyclo DS in there.


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## Arp1 (May 13, 2010)

So Nintendo is making another push?


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## Juanmatron (May 13, 2010)

Berthenk said:
			
		

> Wow, no Cyclo DS in there.



Yup.


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## Saddamsdevil (May 13, 2010)

Those sites are offline


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## Bently (May 13, 2010)

Meh, next thing you know it once they seize all of the flashcard sellers they will go for the People owning flashcarts. Then target the ROM sites or go for the ROM sites than the people.


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## Pyrate02 (May 13, 2010)

It's not efficient for them to go after everyone who bought a flashcart, and would be downright stupid.  They only sue the enablers - people who sell or otherwise disseminate the products.


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## jefffisher (May 13, 2010)

when trying to access the file i get 


Sorry, but you do not have permission to use this feature. If you are not logged in, you may do so using the form below if available.

is this normal?


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## Pyrate02 (May 13, 2010)

I uploaded it and am able to access it using the link, so no - it is not normal


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## TM2-Megatron (May 13, 2010)

Nintendo's fighting a losing battle with this... there'll always be online sites for people to buy these products.

They're already making a ton of money off the DS hardware and software... this is probably just them going through the motions, trying to appease their shareholders and the higher-ups at the recent "loss" in revenue.  They're still making a shitload of money, though, and pirates aren't nearly in the majority.


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## Brian117 (May 13, 2010)

Yay! No EDGE on there!

But is this going to be another yet failed attempt at stopping flashcarts?


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## Gore (May 13, 2010)

Berthenk said:
			
		

> Wow, no Cyclo DS in there.
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"brand names, including, but not limited to"

Anyways if Nintendo was my company I would do this every day. 
ppl always are trying to justify piracy, saying that they make enough money anyways, ridiculous imo
Nintendo is a company and they have every right to pursue people stealing from them


@below : good point
oh, wait a minute, that's absolute bullshit


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## _Chaz_ (May 13, 2010)

This is like Nintendo suing Apple for making iPods, or Sony for making PSPs that are both used to play pirated GBA games.


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## Lily (May 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> This is like Nintendo suing Apple for making iPods, or Sony for making PSPs that are both used to play pirated GBA games.



No, no it isn't.


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## TM2-Megatron (May 13, 2010)

Gore said:
			
		

> Anyways if Nintendo was my company I would do this every day.
> ppl always are trying to justify piracy, saying that they make enough money anyways, ridiculous imo
> Nintendo is a company and they have every right to pursue people stealing from them



Flashcarts have legitimate uses, too.  If there were no more flashcarts for the DS, I'd have a lot less reason to buy one.  And I buy every single DS game I play, but I mostly play them from a flashcart.  Homebrew is also a big draw, and the ability to back up my savefiles, etc.

Anyway, they're fully within their right to sue and try to stop them being available.  But the fact is, they'll never actually be successful.


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## granville (May 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> This is like Nintendo suing Apple for making iPods, or Sony for making PSPs that are both used to play pirated GBA games.


That isn't true at all... Flashcards are designed specifically to play pirated material almost exclusively. There exist only a very select few which do not support commercial DS roms (such as the iPlayer, which actually still has a GBA emulator for it, so even then it's pretty weird...) The developers even update their firmware in order to play specific roms that are incompatible. Supercard team even cracked and distributed a Zelda Spirit Tracks rom to work on older Supercards that they couldn't simply update via firmware. Yes flashcards have legit uses, but if a flashcard maker who uses that line in court, they're usually just trying to justify it. More often than not, they support the loading of commercial roms on their flashcards, it's why there exist firmware updates to play newer roms.

There's a difference between primary focus and non-official means. Neither Sony nor Apple support any of the means used to play Nintendo systems on their own systems. Flashcard developers clearly support the play of copies on their devices.

And this is coming from someone who DOES pirate and supports it just so you know. I'm just saying the legal reasons and there's a huge difference between pirating GBA on the PSP and pirating DS roms on the DS.


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## Rydian (May 13, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> These devices are marketed and sold by Defendants under brand names, including, *but not limited to*



EDIT: Damn, late.


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## _Chaz_ (May 13, 2010)

granville said:
			
		

> _Chaz_ said:
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Actually, the purpose of flashcarts is to play backed up files of your already owned games and homebrew. 
From what I can tell, no flashcart developers openly support pirating games.


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## Chaz. (May 13, 2010)

Lol, the only card I have that isn't on there is the iPlayer, R4i Gold and DSTTi are what I have 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Soone to be Supercard DSTWO


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## granville (May 13, 2010)

They may not openly support piracy, but they must know what people do with their cards. I'm FOR piracy being the cheap asshole that i am of course, but i'm not going to make excuses to justify what i do. Again, Supercard team supported piracy enough to crack and distribute a fixed Zelda rom (prepatched if i recall correctly, the real game, not just an ips) to work on their older flashcards, which would clearly be illegal to download as you are only allowed to back your own roms up.

iPlayer is probably the only flashcard i can think of that isn't specifically designed to run DS roms. I don't think it can load commercial DS games at all. Its primary purpose is cited as media-oriented. It has a GBA emulator too though, and it's speculated that Supercard hired the guy to make it (supercard is the developer of iplayer).


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## em2241992 (May 13, 2010)

Key statement include but not limited to. That means anyone that has a card that looks similar to a DS game card. Sucks but thats legality.


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## Hakoda (May 13, 2010)

Pyrate02 said:
			
		

> It's not efficient for them to go after everyone who bought a flashcart, and would be downright stupid.  They only sue the enablers - people who sell or otherwise disseminate the products.


True. And since this is America the economy sucks, it would cost Nintendo more to go after every single person using a flashcard than to go after those who host sites that offer the games in the first place.


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## Psyfira (May 13, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> Actually, the purpose of flashcarts is to play backed up files of your already owned games and homebrew. From what I can tell, no flashcart developers openly support pirating games.


Last time I checked owning a game doesn't give you the right to make a copy of it, so this isn't legal either. It may depend what country you're in though.

The sad fact is if Nintendo supported homebrew developers in the first place, the carts capable of running pirate titles wouldn't be as advanced as they are. That's not an excuse, just something it would really be worth them thinking about before launching the next console if they don't want to get into this mess again.


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## DrOctapu (May 13, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Game Copier


This term was used to present them as having no other uses, say homebrew/dslinux.

This whole thing's a witch hunt, it's really the same thing as taking flash drives, cds, or dvds off the market just because you can store pirated content on it.
What's worth pirating on the DS, anyway?


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## purechaos996 (May 13, 2010)

Oh crap i've ordered from NXPgame.com and WiiLoveDS.com which as of now are offline. Well time to hide under a rock until this blows over.


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## Splych (May 14, 2010)

damn AceKard is in there.
i have an EDGE @ home, lets hope it is still good.

this is pretty wow... to Nintendo.
why waste your time,
i still buy your games.
even your old games too.


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## RupeeClock (May 14, 2010)

Nintendo can't possibly win this so long as they continue to try deceiving people about the R4 and other flashcarts, using outdated terminology.

Game copiers is such a 90's phrase, seriously.

They also come off as INCREDIBLY pretentious throughout the lawsuit.



			
				QUOTE said:
			
		

> _"...devices that are designed to circumvent the technological protection measures built into the *enormously popular* Nintendo DS and DSi handheld video game system"_
> _"Nintendo is a famous brand and Nintendo video game systems (such as the Nintendo DS, Nintendo DS Lite, Nintendo DSi, Game Boy, and Wii) *are wellknown and loved among consumers* in the United States and abroad. In addition, several of the games offered by Nintendo involve *its famous Nintendo characters*, including the Mario and Luigi characters that appear in Nintendo's SUPER MARIO BROS. games. *In fact, Nintendo's Mario character has been referred to as one of the most famous video game characters in history.*"_
> _"*Nintendo has received many awards for its pioneering contributions* to the video game industry and is an acknowledged leader in the field."_
> _"...Nintendo video game systems and games *are enjoyed by tens of millions* of
> ...



Jesus Christ it's like reading a kid's report on why he thinks he's hot shit.
At least say "Critically successful" rather than "Enormously popular".

Ah...well I get they want, and need to protect their intellectual property and copyrights, absolutely. It also sounds like the specific retailers they are targeting were directly linking to ROM downloads.


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## TM2-Megatron (May 14, 2010)

Yeah, true, lol.  It's clear that NoA is behind that... I can't see NoJ going all "we're hot shit" like that, lol.


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## Rydian (May 14, 2010)

Actually, when protecting IP, you DO have to show that you're "hot shit" and "the big deal" and "I was here first".


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## geoflcl (May 14, 2010)

I have to commend Nintendo for not giving up, at least.
I can see why they wanna get rid of all those dastardly flash cards.  The point is that even thought they COULD be used legitimately,  most of them, well, aren't.
So, unless they start makin' homebrew-only cards,  Ninty will always be on their asses with their lawsuits.

Whether or not their lawsuits will end up working or not is another thing, though.


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## monkat (May 14, 2010)

Side note about all of this:

In an article on Joystiq, a writer used _math_, whatever that is, to estimate that only less than 1% of profits are actually lost due to piracy.


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## Schizoanalysis (May 14, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> Side note about all of this:
> 
> In an article on Joystiq, a writer used _math_, whatever that is, to estimate that only less than 1% of profits are actually lost due to piracy.



*Statistics never lie!*


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## Rydian (May 14, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> Side note about all of this:
> 
> In an article on Joystiq, a writer used _math_, whatever that is, to estimate that only less than 1% of profits are actually lost due to piracy.



http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/20...s-are-bogus.ars


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## Porygon-X (May 14, 2010)

LOLz. They should've listed all of the R4 clones. I see no "R4 3DiLL" (I think that's right).

Also: No Acekard 2i, 2.1. No Supercard DSTwo.

Man. They should at least do SOME research before submitting a formal document.


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## Rayder (May 14, 2010)

Nintendo have to show developers that they are doing "something" against DS piracy to keep the developers happy so they'll keep making games for their systems.


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## MarioBrotha (May 14, 2010)

Rayder said:
			
		

> Nintendo have to show developers that they are doing "something" against DS piracy to keep the developers happy so they'll keep making games for their systems.


Yea doing this kind of stuff lures in the game makers.
Of course, the only other popular gaming system is the PSP, I don't think the game makers had much choice


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## VashTS (May 14, 2010)

last guy got it right, they have to show some fight.  otherwise devs will lose their enthusiasm to make games.  

i think this lawsuit is unconstitutional and reminds me of the movie minority report.  if you really REALLY wanted to, you can line by line write the code for any game ever produced.  and build the hardware piece by piece to play it on.  

if you then claim i am doing something illegal for what i can do, you have broken the law.  flashcarts are not illegal, how can they be?  they are hardware created by someone.  what that hardware does may be illegal, but you cannot guess that someone will use it for that intent.  

i hope they countersue.  i would


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## BlackDave (May 14, 2010)

M3 DS real was on the list but not the M3i zero

Sooooo


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## Raika (May 14, 2010)

The complaint letter...

tl;dr

All I know is that Nintendo's going all out to stop piracy AGAIN.


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## Salax (May 14, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> Gore said:
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I second this. I buy every game on my flash cart, and I use one because it's MUCH more convenient to use one card that 22.


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## mrfatso (May 14, 2010)

nuts, i saw acekard in there.. well, at least my edge isnt popular enough to hit that list


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## BoxShot (May 14, 2010)

mrfatso said:
			
		

> nuts, i saw acekard in there.. well, at least my edge isnt popular enough to hit that list














Didn't know the DS Linker was popular.

So I own a cart on that list and apperantly its popular. Oh noez.


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## Jamstruth (May 14, 2010)

I loved one thing about that complaint. "These devices and colliquially known, and are collectively referred herein, as "Game Copiers"
Has anybody here ever heard that term used to describe a flashcart?! I sure haven't, its misleading as well. Its quite hard to use a flashcart to actually copy a game and they cannot perform that task natively. "Game Copier" would be a term better used to describe something which actually rips the games not plays them.


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## Overlord Nadrian (May 14, 2010)

Ninty cannot win this. Flashcarts don't have to be used to play ROMs. Some people (like TeenDev) use them only for homebrew. Of course, 99% of people use them to play ROMs, but if Ninty would ban flashcarts then it would be unfair for those that don't use the illegal features of it. If the advocate keeps up a statement like this, he's sure to win the case.


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## Jamstruth (May 14, 2010)

Overlord Nadrian said:
			
		

> Ninty cannot win this.


Fixed. Government will side with corporation, FACT! Besides, the cart manufactueres actively go out of their way to patch games. Ninty have won cases before and can easily do it again.


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## hunnymonster (May 14, 2010)

Overlord Nadrian said:
			
		

> if Ninty would ban flashcarts then it would be unfair for those that don't use the illegal features of it.



Life isn't fair - there are many examples of corporate/governmental unfairness - often enshrined in law.


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## Costello (May 14, 2010)

they'll probably win the war on the next console (3DS) it probably wont have flashcarts, the system will run a hypervisor, or they will use a new encryption method, anything but now the technology is mature enough to prevent piracy, as we've seen with the PS3. The 360 too to a lesser extent, if it didn't have a DVD drive it wouldnt be piratable (except for old jtag consoles thingy, but then you lose like half of the features).


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## Supersonicmonk (May 14, 2010)

the DS is probably the most pirated console and although Nintendo doesn't really do that much to stop it now, I do get the feeling that the 3DS is going to be bullet proof. They've shown they can make proper protection with the DSi (albeit only the DSi mode features) and I think at best we might be able to play DS games on it if it is backwards compatible


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## TM2-Megatron (May 14, 2010)

The PS3 and DSi would've been hacked if more people gave a crap about doing it.

The only possible use hacking the PS3 would be is bragging rights for whoever did it.  Same for the DSi.  The cost of Blu-Ray burners and media (for now) make the PS3 unrealistic and pointless, and hacking the DSi would serve almost no use at all.  There are only 2 DSi-exclusive cartridges, and they're shit games anyway.  Nobody's going to hack the DSi so people can play a goddamn Hair Salon game on their flashcarts.

The 3DS will be hacked, because nothing is unhackable and people will actually care about getting that one done.


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## Overlord Nadrian (May 14, 2010)

hunnymonster said:
			
		

> Overlord Nadrian said:
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Life isn't fair, true, but in a case like this I expect Ninty to lose. I remember they lost a case againt some R4 seller in Spain recently too. So this shouldn't be much of a hassle either.


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## Pyrate02 (May 14, 2010)

I think a bunch of you are forgetting one important fact about the fight against Nintendo - litigating a case like this costs a LOT of money and unfortunately, I do not believe that Kevin can afford a lengthy fight against Nintendo.....that is the sad fact of the matter.

Perhaps if the Electronic Frontier Foundation or other got together and donated some time/money towards the defense, it might work.


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## RchUncleSkeleton (May 15, 2010)

Honestly, myself and several people I know would not even own a DS if not for there being flashcards....games are too expensive at $30 to $40 a pop! Nintendo has actually sold hardware they wouldn't have sold because of the flashcards...where it's a real shame is for the 3rd party devs whom rely on software sales. But if I could not use a flashcard plain and simple I wouldn't have bought a DS.


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## Demonbart (May 15, 2010)

They're stupid. They say these devices are colloquially known as "game copiers" while they're known as flashcarts and falshcarts in themselves don't copy games.


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## Rayder (May 15, 2010)

If they really want to end DS piracy, then stop producing DSlite hardware/software.  Plain and simple.  DSi is not cracked and the 3DS is purported to have even better security.  So stop making software that works in a DSlite (and phat) and move to pure DSi and 3DS games and piracy will end right there.

Until the next set of hax anyway....


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## ProtoKun7 (May 16, 2010)

Schizoanalysis said:
			
		

> *Statistics never lie!*


Everyone knows that 84% of statistics are fabricated, and the other 38% take no notice of mathematics.


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## iamthemilkman (May 16, 2010)

Too late for Nintendo. This is the DS's last year. And I doubt the 3DS will be as easy to "hack" (simply buying a card).



			
				RchUncleSkeleton said:
			
		

> Honestly, myself and several people I know would not even own a DS if not for there being flashcards....games are too expensive at $30 to $40 a pop! Nintendo has actually sold hardware they wouldn't have sold because of the flashcards...where it's a real shame is for the 3rd party devs whom rely on software sales. But if I could not use a flashcard plain and simple I wouldn't have bought a DS.




I agree that $30-$40 for a DS game is absurd. The majority of 360/PS3 games can be bought for that 1-2 weeks after they release. 

Nintendo needs to compete with the App Store. DSiware doesn't do that. And I've played a good many iPhone games that are better than many full retail DS games. Espgaluda II, for example.


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## Jamstruth (May 16, 2010)

iamthemilkman said:
			
		

> Too late for Nintendo. This is the DS's last year. And I doubt the 3DS will be as easy to "hack" (simply buying a card).


If it has a DS mode (for back compatibility) we may be able to hack that and use flashcarts though.


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## iamthemilkman (May 16, 2010)

Jamstruth said:
			
		

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That's true. You're right. There's always a possibility. We can always hope, right? I just think it'd be downright stupid for Nintendo to use cartridges of any kind.


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## Exaltys (May 16, 2010)

Bottom line, piracy is wrong. That being said...

*boots up AKAIO*


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## Jamstruth (May 16, 2010)

iamthemilkman said:
			
		

> Jamstruth said:
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After all, the PSPGo proved to be such a huge success!
There are flaws in the DSMode of the DSi and in the DS itself, they can't remove those flaws very easily now that system is so set in stone, they can try but there will always be an exploit.


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## iamthemilkman (May 16, 2010)

Jamstruth said:
			
		

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Well, the PSP hardly has any games worth downloading legally or illegally, so charging $250 for a system with a poor download catalog isn't so wise. 

People will buy a DS regardless of the way the content is delivered.


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## ehayes427 (May 16, 2010)

i say who cares?  nintendo still
makes a ton of $$$$, so what difference does it make?

its like limewire, people download music illegally, yet musicians are still making millions of dollars.


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## GH0ST (May 17, 2010)

_*N*_ loses the first round in Europe since a first court in Paris has ruled that a flashcart adds functionality to the system, and hence is not necessary illegal as a product... like a DVD burner ;-) 

A flashcard could be a tool in piracy but not only.

Judgment ( in french ) : http://www.juriscom.net/documents/tgiparis20091203.pdf

*N* appeals againt this decision and i fear the Court of Appeal in Paris is more conservative than the first juridiction...


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## Infinite Zero (May 17, 2010)

Nah. This complaint is useless.
Millions of people use flashcarts.
So... yeah


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## Blebleman (May 17, 2010)

A lot of people haven't spent the time reading the complaint.

Ninty is not just suing him for selling flashcards... He is using copyrighted Nintendo trademarks and possibly graphics, claiming them as his own. They have warned him once, he said he'd stop. He resumed, got warned again, stopped, only to do it again, repeatedly.

Nintendo's mad, with a good reason.

Also, judging by the complaint, it seems he was not promoting flashcards as "enabling you to play homebrew games" but rather as ways to pirate games.

It's all in the wording.


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## TM2-Megatron (May 17, 2010)

iamthemilkman said:
			
		

> Well, the PSP hardly has any games worth downloading legally or illegally, so charging $250 for a system with a poor download catalog isn't so wise.
> 
> People will buy a DS regardless of the way the content is delivered.



A 100% downloadable catalog would turn me off a handheld, tbh.  While I can see the value in offering certain types of games, like most of the simple/additive titles that are so popular for the iPhone/iPad... personally, for more in-depth games and RPGs/etc. I stll prefer having a self-contained cartridge, or whatever other type of media.  I hate the idea of everything being downloadable, personally.  I want a cartridge, packaging, manual, etc.  The most I'd ever pay for a download of a game is around $10; any more and I just wouldn't bother unless there were a way to pirate.  I don't see downloadable games as being worth purchasing, whereas I'll gladly buy it on a cartridge/disc.

The PSP Go failed in part because it has fewer good games, yeah.  But also, I don't think that many people like the idea of a handheld with no physical media at all.  For some types of games it's a good delivery format, but for others it's a bad move.


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