# why do people on forums hate jrpgs so much



## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

i was on gamefaqs and all i saw was either people bashing jrpgs for no reason,people complaining about certain rpgs not coming out and bitching about jrpgs for having quote on quote loli apeal


so do people ever actualy praise jrpgs anymore maybe its just gamefaqs thats like this i dunno but jrpgs as a ganre get alot of hate from people for some reason


i mean the amount of hate ive seen for atelier is staggering i mean sure they aint perfect but i woudnt call them bad


so what do you think do jrpgs get to much hate on forums or is it just the forum im on?


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## Guild McCommunist (Sep 12, 2014)

Because a lot of them suck?

They're convoluted, boring, and poorly written. There are exceptions but a lot of them are outdated fan-pandering.


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Because a lot of them suck?
> 
> They're convoluted, boring, and poorly written. There are exceptions but a lot of them are outdated fan-pandering.


yes but heres the thing

i can understand that but maybe we  are to negetive on them and maybe we should be positive about the ganre for a chance look at the good jrpgs instead of the bad i can name a fair few worthwhile rpgs so yeah


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## Black-Ice (Sep 12, 2014)

Because they're popular.


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## Gahars (Sep 12, 2014)

Because different people have different opinions?

Also, it depends on the forum. Tons of people on GBAtemp will rave about Xenoblade Chronicles, The Tales Of franchise, the new Final Fantasy games, etc. until the cows comes home.


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## Gaming4Ever (Sep 12, 2014)

Maybe its the J in front makes it seem weird uncommon even


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

Gahars said:


> Because different people have different opinions?
> 
> Also, it depends on the forum. Tons of people on GBAtemp will rave about Xenoblade Chronicles, The Tales Of franchise, the new Final Fantasy games, etc. until the cows comes home.


yeah i have noticed that XD ive also seen alot of people are alot more fair on hyperdemension here im not a fan of the series but its nice to see a site not complain about it all the time


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## stanleyopar2000 (Sep 12, 2014)

a lot of them are kinda formulaic with the "chosen one world / universe is in peril and quickly rushed love interest who most likely will need rescuing by the end of the game" crap


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## DinohScene (Sep 12, 2014)

Cause the people that actively play them are weeaboo's and hate on other games whilst the people that hate JRPGS hate on weeaboo's

In all seriousness, I cbf about those people.
I play whatever I want.


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

stanleyopar2000 said:


> a lot of them are kinda formulaic with the "chosen one" crap.


 
yeah but many of them u don't even need to be a fan of the story lie alundra for example

what is so wrong in talking about more of the good jrpgs instead of complaining about the bad tell me whats so hard about that


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## FAST6191 (Sep 12, 2014)

You can't really ignore bad now can you? Especially not if it is the bulk of the output, at least in a given gameplay style, of a game development powerhouse like Japan.


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> You can't really ignore bad now can you? Especially not if it is the bulk of the output, at least in a given gameplay style, of a game development powerhouse like Japan.


 
i guess there are plenty of bad jrpgs out there beyond the beyond for example


i mean hating them without expaining why it bad


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## stanleyopar2000 (Sep 12, 2014)

1. hero who doesn't know they are a hero finds out they are needed for something.
2. goes on epic journey to solve problem (problem with universe, spirit world etc) most of the time love interest who we are also introduced too will join hero
3. questing insues.
4. other individuals (if it's THAT kind of RPG) will also join with heroes quest.
5. hero finds out love interest may also be a "chosen one" and is a key in making the "problem" happen and is captured by evil to make sure plans happen.
6. Hero goes after evil to save girl and destroy the evil causing the problem before girl is used for evil
7.hero destoys evil. saves girl and universe / world is safe for another day until the sequel.


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

stanleyopar2000 said:


> 1. hero who doesn't know they are a hero finds out they are needed for something.
> 2. goes on epic journey to solve problem (problem with universe, spirit world etc) most of the time love interest who we are also introduced too will join hero
> 3. questing insues.
> 4. other individuals (if it's THAT kind of RPG) will also join with heroes quest.
> ...


 
not all jrpgs are like that people who think so are stuck in the past


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## Ulieq (Sep 12, 2014)

They're awesome.  My kids these days play call of duty or candy crush.  God forbid they had to read text. 


Best DS Game: Black Sigil



thesupremegamer said:


> i guess there are plenty of bad jrpgs out there beyond the beyond for example
> 
> 
> i mean hating them without expaining why it bad


 

OMFG BEYOND THE BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  That's the first RPG for ps1 that I ever played.  I remember being so hyped for it ....32 bit rpg, oh ya baby, just after busting though final fantasy 6 on snes........................oh man was I wrong!


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## stanleyopar2000 (Sep 12, 2014)

thesupremegamer said:


> not all jrpgs are like that people who think so are stuck in the past



not ALL are like that..but you have to agree that there is SOME type of formula like this to JRPG's story. maybe not as rigid but it is out there


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

Ulieq said:


> They're awesome. My kids these days play call of duty or candy crush. God forbid they had to read text.
> 
> 
> Best DS Game: Black Sigil


 
i never got the apeal to call of duty if you want to play a fps play something like team fortress 2 or doom which are actualy fun


anyways yeah people do get abit pissed off about text even western rpgs have text but noone complains there



stanleyopar2000 said:


> not ALL are like that..but you have to agree that there is SOME type of formula like this to JRPG's story. maybe not as rigid but it is out there


yeah i do ^^ if its done well i dont mine

alot of the shin megami tensei games have cliches but they do them pretty well so yeah


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## Ulieq (Sep 12, 2014)

thesupremegamer said:


> i never got the apeal to call of duty if you want to play a fps play something like team fortress 2 or doom which are actualy fun
> 
> 
> anyways yeah people do get abit pissed off about text even western rpgs have text but noone complains there


 

I love pixels.   I wish more games were created with pixel art than all the polygons.


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## Veho (Sep 12, 2014)

There is no such thing as a JRPG


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

Ulieq said:


> OMFG BEYOND THE BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the first RPG for ps1 that I ever played. I remember being so hyped for it ....32 bit rpg, oh ya baby, just after busting though final fantasy 6 on snes........................oh man was I wrong!


lol i havent played it yet but ive heard really bad things about it

i have heard it does have abit of a cult status for some though kinda like quest 64


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## thesupremegamer (Sep 12, 2014)

Ulieq said:


> I love pixels. I wish more games were created with pixel art than all the polygons.


me 2 nothing against 3d art but theres a charm to 2d sprities

mana khemia ftw


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## FAST6191 (Sep 12, 2014)

Ulieq said:


> They're awesome.  My kids these days play call of duty or candy crush.  God forbid they had to read text.
> 
> 
> Best DS Game: Black Sigil



Ordinarily I would say something about it not being all that great. For this though I have to ask wasn't that a Canadian dev?


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## Hells Malice (Sep 12, 2014)

stanleyopar2000 said:


> 1. hero who doesn't know they are a hero finds out they are needed for something.
> 2. goes on epic journey to solve problem (problem with universe, spirit world etc) most of the time love interest who we are also introduced too will join hero
> 3. questing insues.
> 4. other individuals (if it's THAT kind of RPG) will also join with heroes quest.
> ...


 
If you cut out the love interest thing (because that's not really a thing anymore, at least I haven't seen any games like that in ages), then yep we've got big jRPGs like Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, etc all following that pattern!
Those darn japs!

Tbh there's not a lot different from western and eastern RPGs aside from core gameplay and obviously graphics. The story structure is pretty similar, western RPGs just like to throw in arbitrary choices that usually don't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Even if they do mean something, it's kind of like the goosebumps choose-your-own-adventure kind of thing where a story suffers heavily as a compromise for the "vastness" of the choices.

I usually hate characters in games like Dragon Age or even Neverwinter (which has a hell of a lot better writing), because 90% of the time you've got two people who hate eachother and bitch and whine about everything. Constantly fighting and being generally annoying as fuck. I much, much prefer the japanese style where your party actually GETS ALONG most of the time. Sure there might be conflict, but it's not after every fucking decision you make. I hate having to choose my party based on who will BEHAVE together, lol. Actually if I recall correctly...in Geneforge you can just kill your own teammates if it suits your fancy. God I love those games.

In the end I do play both. If a game is good, it's good. I don't care where it came from and I always laugh at the idiots who try their hardest to be bias towards one or the other. There's juuust as many shitty western games. The only difference is that japan heavily focuses on RPGs, because that's what the people want, where the west focuses on other shit, like FPS. So when there's a bad japanese game, it's most likely an RPG. Whereas in the west it's spread a bit more evenly.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 12, 2014)

Hells Malice said:


> Tbh there's not a lot different from western and eastern RPGs aside from core gameplay



Had to quote that one.


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## Reploid (Sep 12, 2014)

Americans hate all RPGs. That's why Mass Effect became such a sex-centered shooter. Late x-play show was so american that they hated all games that requiered any brainpower at all. Ok, now it's my happytrigger time with AK and my drunk on vodka bear.


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## Hells Malice (Sep 12, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> Had to quote that one.


 
Hah. Well I was focusing more on story and presentation when I said that. Gameplay differences between east and west are just a given.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 12, 2014)

But when those gameplay differences tend to include a branching story in which one might actually be able to role play vs being told a story about a character wherein you are more or less just along for the ride I am not sure it is handwaved so easily.


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## Hells Malice (Sep 12, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> But when those gameplay differences tend to include a branching story in which one might actually be able to role play vs being told a story about a character wherein you are more or less just along for the ride I am not sure it is handwaved so easily.


 
I don't consider how the story is told to be gameplay.
Clicking a text box as opposed to watching a scene aren't gameplay differences.
Being able to roleplay is a bit of a joke. If we're talking games like elder scrolls, then sure maybe. Buut I was specifically talking about games like Mass Effect/DA where you're basically a static character who makes a few choices. You can roleplay as them just as well as any jRPG character tbh. Roleplaying isn't a thing in those games.


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## Guild McCommunist (Sep 12, 2014)

Hells Malice said:


> I don't consider how the story is told to be gameplay.
> Clicking a text box as opposed to watching a scene aren't gameplay differences.
> Being able to roleplay is a bit of a joke. If we're talking games like elder scrolls, then sure maybe. Buut I was specifically talking about games like Mass Effect/DA where you're basically a static character who makes a few choices. You can roleplay as them just as well as any jRPG character tbh. Roleplaying isn't a thing in those games.


 

But the point he's arguing is that story wise the two genres are quite different because WRPGs have branching story paths while JRPGs are decidedly linear.

And the character in Mass Effect and other such games is kinda like half you, half another character. You're supposed to make the decisions you would make, although I feel Mass Effect kinda ruined this with a designed "Good/Neutral/Evil" decision. Dragon Age Origins at least didn't indicate what answer had what affect on morality and even then morality was only what your comrades thought of you, not a bar that goes up and down.


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## aqulue (Sep 12, 2014)

all `MURICAH gamers care is FIRST PERSON SHOOTER... nuff said


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## Guild McCommunist (Sep 12, 2014)

aqulue said:


> all `MURICAH gamers care is FIRST PERSON SHOOTER... nuff said


 

Too much said, your post was shit.


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## aqulue (Sep 12, 2014)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Too much said, your post was shit.


 
so were yours mister


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## FAST6191 (Sep 12, 2014)

In which your actions in a game change the outcome of the story/segment vs in which your actions unlock the next cutscene of a sort is not a fundamental difference in so many ways? Even just outlining how I would make the game engine in my head would change it in so many ways.

I would have probably argued mass effect is a good example of role playing -- ignoring the knock on stuff for other games I decide and influence the fates of species, multiple characters in my party and outside it, galactic politics and more, such things changing story arcs, items available to me and more besides.
Equally on the unknown hero bit I seem to recall your character is already a military commander of some note (though you pick some of the background there), one a few minutes from being appointed to the galaxy police as the game begins and otherwise with the backing of several quite powerful groups.


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## FailName (Sep 12, 2014)

thesupremegamer said:


> i guess there are plenty of bad jrpgs out there beyond the beyond for example





Ulieq said:


> OMFG BEYOND THE BEYOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  That's the first RPG for ps1 that I ever played.  I remember being so hyped for it ....32 bit rpg, oh ya baby, just after busting though final fantasy 6 on snes........................oh man was I wrong!


Was it that bad? I've thought of playing it since I liked every other game that I've played that was made by Camelot (really just the Golden Sun games and the Mario Tennis games on gb and gba), but I've never got around to it.


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## Taleweaver (Sep 12, 2014)

Interesting question. The most obvious thing is "every forum has at least one whipping boy". The kind of topics that, once brought up, will generate a flood of posts that confirm the general trend ruling on said forum. On gbatemp, the ouya is a decent example (seriously: start any thread about it and you'll easily have multiple pages of people making fun and puns about it).

JRPG's are an easy target for many reasons:
-if you're not into turn based combat or random encounters, their presence can seriously fuck up your experience
-the story is often convoluted, leaves many plotholes and has some pretty weird plot turns at times. If your suspension isn't disbelieved at that time, criticizing one is like shooting fish in a barrel
-same for the characters. Without suspension of disbelief, you're running around with a bunch of twats (in other words: more easy target picking).
-JRPG's have become pretty stale for a long time. Sure, graphics have improved, but what else? I don't play 'em because I personally don't like 'em, and TBH I don't think I've seen ANY proper innovation on that front in about ten years. A friend of mine likes to play Xenoblade Chronicles, but while she's having fun with it, it's clearly nothing that couldn't have been done ten years earlier (save the graphics, obviously...and I'm not even sure about that).
-what's worse: JRPG's USED to be good. If you ask me, the reason why guys like Spoony go on multiple hours on breaking them down is because they think the industry took a wrong turn somewhere and want to point that out (okay, perhaps "no innovation" is a bad choice of words, and should that be "innovation in fields a vocal part of their fans absolutely hate").

And while not a thing per se, I have my personal gripe:

WHAT THE HELL IS A "JRPG" IN THE FREAKIN' FIRST PLACE ??? 

Extra credits did a nice 3-part episode on it (starting here), and I gotta say it's just a stupid referential that should never have been a thing in the first place. The whole "RPG" is something I get, and is a part of the gameplay. But what is the 'J' doing in that whole thing? Is monster hunter or demon souls a JRPG because they're made in Japan? If the setting is important...is the 'mother' series a JRPG because it plays in the US? Should we call Mario a "JPlatformer", versus the many "Western platformers"? What if a team is part Japanese and part from the West? Are there more JRPG's than final fantasy, and if so...why is everyone always dissing THOSE JRPG's?


In summary: I hate JRPG's because you can't classify them. It's like saying "yeah, I hate all games with a colon in the name". Except you can say that something like that without being a racist.


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## WiiCube_2013 (Sep 12, 2014)

I don't hate them, I just don't care about JRPGs.


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## WiiUBricker (Sep 12, 2014)

Without JRPGS, my life would be empty.


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## zeello (Sep 12, 2014)

what are you talking about, people love jrpgs. I guess you could say jrpgs are divisive, and some people are turned off by anime or equate it to pedophilia, but there at least as many people who are clearly gaga over jrpgs, and some of them are seemingly in it for the anime. And considering how many jrpgs have randomly triggered encounters, it makes sense that jrpg fans have no standards whatsoever.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 12, 2014)

Taleweaver said:


> Interesting question. The most obvious thing is "every forum has at least one whipping boy". The kind of topics that, once brought up, will generate a flood of posts that confirm the general trend ruling on said forum. On gbatemp, the ouya is a decent example (seriously: start any thread about it and you'll easily have multiple pages of people making fun and puns about it).
> 
> JRPG's are an easy target for many reasons:
> 
> ...



Leaving aside that Xenoblade is usually brought up by many around here as an example of a bad/boring one I have to say the bolded part is fighting words. Now they did get oh so very cookie cutter at some point in the PS2 era, it is where I burned out, but this last go around had some weird and freaky deviations, mostly by introducing active combat which probably masked a lot for me (my usual three being Magna Carta II, Resonance of Fate and Eternal Sonata).


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## GameWinner (Sep 12, 2014)

A lot of them are just bad.
I like JRPGs but there are a ton that just aren't that good.


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## Ulieq (Sep 13, 2014)

GameWinner said:


> A lot of them are just bad.
> I like JRPGs but there are a ton that just aren't that good.


 

Just like all persona and smt games, horrible.


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## GameWinner (Sep 13, 2014)

Ulieq said:


> Just like all persona and smt games, horrible.


lol


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## CompassNorth (Sep 13, 2014)

thesupremegamer said:


> jrpgs as a ganre


Not a genre, it's a regional term.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 13, 2014)

Reploid said:


> Americans hate all RPGs.


Americans invented RPG, the thing with JRPG's is that they practically invariably do not follow the core principles of role-playing, hence the added _"J"_ - to put a blind eye on the inconsistencies with the RPG genre because the games are _"Japanese"_.

RPG's are about role-playing, JRPG's, often times, are about stats. The very idea behind role-playing games is to, of course, play the role of an imaginary character, usually a generated or created one, and guiding said character through an adventure, all the while making story-altering choices. This stands in contrast with JRPG's where more often than not the story is fixed and the only element of RPG that remains intact is the stats system.

There's a big difference between a _"story"_ and an _"adventure"_ in the sense that a story follows a usually pre-determined plot wheras an adventure is more of a sandbox of smaller stories that you may or may not encounter on your way to reaching your goal.



CompassNorth said:


> Not a genre, it's a regional term.


It can easily be treated as a separate genre due to the differences I mentioned above. JRPG's don't follow the blueprint of an actual RPG, they deviate from the original format, hence the distinction. That, and both evolved independently from one another, even if they have common roots.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 13, 2014)

The same thread could be made of first person shooters and why people hate them, I could go all out on why I despise them, but for my own sanity, I refrain from making said thread and formulating an opinion on said genre.  Some JRPGs are good, a majority of the recent ones have just sucked big time, the FF games being "ported" or "remade" to Android/IOS only make them suck that much more.


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## grossaffe (Sep 13, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> Leaving aside that Xenoblade is usually brought up by many around here as an example of a bad/boring one I have to say the bolded part is fighting words. Now they did get oh so very cookie cutter at some point in the PS2 era, it is where I burned out, but this last go around had some weird and freaky deviations, mostly by introducing active combat which probably masked a lot for me (my usual three being Magna Carta II, Resonance of Fate and Eternal Sonata).


Is Xenoblade really brought up by many as bad, or by one or two people who bring it up all the time?


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## the_randomizer (Sep 13, 2014)

grossaffe said:


> Is Xenoblade really brought up by many as bad, or by one or two people who bring it up all the time?


 
I personally find The Last Story to be a better game overall.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 13, 2014)

grossaffe said:


> Is Xenoblade really brought up by many as bad, or by one or two people who bring it up all the time?


Our boat is small and only fits a couple of wisemen. We sail on the dangerous seas of circle jerk spunk, we are few, but we sail bravely.


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## grossaffe (Sep 13, 2014)

the_randomizer said:


> I personally find The Last Story to be a better game overall.


Out of the Operation Rainfall games, I was most excited for TLS, but it wound up the least satisfying for me.  I didn't much care for the main characters (the only party members I found interesting were Syrenne and Lowell, but they were after-thoughts), the romance felt incredibly forced, and in battle, I often felt as though the CPU had no need for me and that they could handle it by themselves (I always wanted to be able to use all party members in battle instead of switching out, but now I see why they're typically limited).
There was a lot to like in the game, but could have been executed so much better, in my opinion.



Foxi4 said:


> Our boat is small and only fits a couple of wisemen. We sail on the dangerous seas of circle jerk spunk, we are few, but we sail bravely.


You poor, delusional fools.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 13, 2014)

grossaffe said:


> You poor, delusional fools.


I can't help it - the game is meh. It only stands out because it's not in a crowd. It's good for a Wii game, but that's where the praise ends. Frankly, I found it boring and with zero direction, then again, I only gave it a couple of hours. Perhaps I'll try it again sometime, but I feel no urgent need to do so.


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## grossaffe (Sep 13, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> I can't help it - the game is meh. It only stands out because it's not in a crowd. It's good for a Wii game, but that's where the praise ends. Frankly, I found it boring and with zero direction, then again, I only gave it a couple of hours. Perhaps I'll try it again sometime, but I feel no urgent need to do so.


We're all entitled to our opinions.  I went in with rather low expectations and found them greatly exceeded.  If it were just a matter of "good for a Wii game", though, then you'd see me singing The Last Story's praise, too.

I am rather curious about a couple things related to your opinion of the game.  The first would be just how far you actually did get into the game (number of hours probably doesn't mean as much as perhaps landmarks you reached or story events that took place).  The other thing I wonder about is how you feel about games that start slowly.  I know there are a lot of people who lose interest if the game doesn't come out blazing.  Watching my brother start Twilight Princess (GCN) in Ordon Village, he lost focus and was just itching to get to adventure and couldn't handle the slow beginning; he never bothered to play long enough to get into the main game, even though he loved Ocarina of Time back in the day, and later Skyward Sword.
For myself, I often enjoy a slower beginning to establish the characters in their natural environment before crisis strikes.


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## Ulieq (Sep 13, 2014)

the_randomizer said:


> I personally find The Last Story to be a better game overall.


 

I personally found the last story to be dull and barely playable.


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## eriol33 (Sep 13, 2014)

maybe because jrpgs are no longer a thing. but honestly, jrpgs were very popular in southeast region. at least in indonesia, I remember during the psx and ps2 era, most of the local indonesian magazines mostly reviewed jrpgs or translated japanese games. 

I honestly still like jrpg, but I'm more selective these days because not all jrpgs are good, some of them are very bad and have terrible storytelling with a flat characterization.


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## mightymuffy (Sep 13, 2014)

Lads, you can try to be as convoluted and technical as you want with your replies to the OP, but you all seemed to have missed the first 4 words of his post, which can lead us all to give a unanimous, concise reply:

The words?.....



thesupremegamer said:


> i was on gamefaqs


 
The answer? ...."WTF were you doing on there?" , or better still, "WTF did you expect from there?"


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## Veho (Sep 13, 2014)

CompassNorth said:


> Not a genre, it's a regional term.


We've been over this already. It's a genre.


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## emigre (Sep 13, 2014)

GameWinner said:


> A lot of them are just bad.
> I like JRPGs but there are a ton that just aren't that good.


 

This to be honest. There are quite few really mediocre and bad stuff getting released. Mind 0 anyone?


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## BORTZ (Sep 13, 2014)

I am a fan of jrpgs. But there doesnt seem to be a great deal of them worth my time anymore.


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## codezer0 (Sep 13, 2014)

My biggest gripe with jRPG's as of late is that its creators seem steadfast to ignore their audiences _outside_ of Japan.

A lot of the mechanics seem to be changed for the sake of change, with a complete disconnect to the way the story is expected to work. Or lately, if they even bother explain it at all, it is usually in such an obtuse manner as to actually make it worse than if you'd never heard the explanation at all. Exhibit A in this would be _Final Fantasy XIII. _Comparatively, _Final Fantasy V_ integrated its gameplay mechanics very well into the story, so that the job system and the crystal pieces made sense to collect.

Lately a lot of jRPG's seem to treat the story and gameplay elements as completely separate entities, and the disjoint in many instances is fiercely jarring. It's like going through the trouble of creating a fantastic wild west setting and then getting a prompt to pick up a laser gun from the general store and having no explanation for _why_ such a thing exists in the world. That and their attempts at character development are at best misguided, or in the worst cases just make you hate the player character and party even more. And then when these characters come back in other games and we're just somehow expected to be supposed to like them is really insulting. The best parallel I can think of to this is how Hideo Kojima seems to just naturally expect everyone to absolutely love Raiden from MGS2 _after_ how terrible and unlikeable he was in MGS2. Even the attempt to make him this cyborg badass in MGS4 *that you cannot play as* felt like a backhand insult. I've refused to touch MGS:R on principle as a result.


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## CompassNorth (Sep 14, 2014)

Veho said:


> We've been over this already. It's a genre.


Yes we have, but it's not a genre.
Action RPGs, Turn-based RPGs, Strategy RPGs, dungeon crawlers, roguelikes, roguelites, etc are all genres.
jRPGs and wRPGs are not, they're regional terms as I said.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 14, 2014)

And this is why I stick to the older, more original JRPGs, you know, when they actually had at least some substance to them. Nostalgia glasses be damned.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 14, 2014)

CompassNorth said:


> Yes we have, but it's not a genre.
> Action RPGs, Turn-based RPGs, Strategy RPGs, dungeon crawlers, roguelikes, roguelites, etc are all genres.
> jRPGs and wRPGs are not, they're regional terms as I said.



Though I might argue wRPG breaks down into North America and not North America (and not Japan) it is still a genre distinction, as much as genre is a useful term anyway. It mostly arose in the 8 and 16 bit eras as far as I can see. Compare something like Might and Magic to Dragon Quest and you have a fairly different style of game. Usually though it refers to the storytelling style -- fairly open and with characters you can bias vs rigid story structure with predefined characters. Or if you prefer one wants to be a computerised version of dungeons and dragons where the other would be a kind of interactive storybook.

It is entirely possible for a dev to make a game in either style regardless of their region of origin -- dragon's dogma being an example of a Japanese dev not using the formula, the eventual fate of the Wizardry series being another interesting one. Equally lines have been very blurred as tech got better and restrictions lifted.

Such things are not limited to games either -- folklore, "magic" (word based, mainly for places with writing and certain religions, vs internal/nature magic), board games (classically when you look at card and board games of East Asia and more recently where you get things like German board games), storytelling styles (see something like Greek tragedy and compare it to things coming out of Japan and possibly also compare those to some of the Norse ones) and more have all had examples of things falling into such regional conventions, which may later be appropriated for other things (Shakespeare borrowed reasonably heavily from a lot of Greek tragedies).


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## Veho (Sep 14, 2014)

CompassNorth said:


> jRPGs and wRPGs are not, they're regional terms as I said.


But they're not. A Western studio can make a JRPG, and a Japanese studio can make an RPG, it's not about the region. There is enough distinct differences in gameplay and storytelling between the two styles to make them different subgenres at least.


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## Taleweaver (Sep 14, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> Americans invented RPG, the thing with JRPG's is that they practically invariably do not follow the core principles of role-playing, hence the added _"J"_ - to put a blind eye on the inconsistencies with the RPG genre because the games are _"Japanese"_.
> 
> RPG's are about role-playing, JRPG's, often times, are about stats. The very idea behind role-playing games is to, of course, play the role of an imaginary character, usually a generated or created one, and guiding said character through an adventure, all the while making story-altering choices. This stands in contrast with JRPG's where more often than not the story is fixed and the only element of RPG that remains intact is the stats system.
> 
> ...


If Americans truly invented RPG's then this whole WRPG vs JRPG wouldn't have been a thing. However, it's not true. Not in the historical sense in which most video game genres evolved, at least. The roleplaying genre was sort of invented on both countries at the same time, and evolved into different directions. I'd even argue that one of them (or even both) just change their name completely, as to indicate it's actually completely different genres.

Sure, the role-playing is a central element, but even that is pretty different. In Western RPG's, you usually ARE the main protagonist. You can often how he/she looks to fit your desires and have a wide open world.
In JRPG's, you PLAY the main protagonist. Though you can name them, the amount of choice you have is far less, or even non-existing. It's an interactive movie where you are invited to roleplay as THAT ONE GUY/GIRL.

I don't visit forums complaining about JRPG's often, but the stabs people take at final fantasy limiting choice ("corridor simulator" and such) are rather unjustified. You don't complain about books or movies being too linear, and there are plenty of games (most platformers, for example) that are linear as well. Truth is that JRPG's were never as much about exploration as they were about atmosphere and fantasy.



CompassNorth said:


> Yes we have, but it's not a genre.
> Action RPGs, Turn-based RPGs, Strategy RPGs, dungeon crawlers, roguelikes, roguelites, etc are all genres.
> jRPGs and wRPGs are not, they're regional terms as I said.


*sigh*

It's the same complaint I have, but unfortunately, it's not regarded that way. Nowadays, JRPG tend to mean more something like "an RPG in the Japanese tradition". The whole 'Japanese' part is actually irrelevant (it's like French fries...that isn't a regional term to how potatoes are cooked either  ).


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## Foxi4 (Sep 14, 2014)

Taleweaver said:


> If Americans truly invented RPG's then _(...)_


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons

RPG's are a little bit older than computer games, I'm afraid.


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## Taleweaver (Sep 15, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_&_Dragons
> 
> RPG's are a little bit older than computer games, I'm afraid.


 
I know. But you're missing the part "Not in the historical sense in which most video game genres evolved, at least." (and I assumed we were talking about video game RPG's).

link to my own sources (from 1:00 onwards).


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## FAST6191 (Sep 15, 2014)

Ignoring board games, physical arcades/fairgrounds/amusement parks/penny arcades, pen and paper, mathematical concepts of games and assuming computer games sprung out of the ether one day does not fly for me. It would be a bit like saying that TV ignores film, theatre and "over several nights at the fire" forms of storytelling.

Certainly computer games have gone on to explore abstractions that are all but impossible in the real world and in the real world dungeons and dragons, as meh as dungeons and dragons kind of is as a game, affords considerably more freedom/scope for unusual things than any AI driven computer game will have for decades.


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## CompassNorth (Sep 15, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> Compare something like Might and Magic to Dragon Quest and you have a fairly different style of game.


Yes, they're two different style of games, one is a dungeon crawler one isn't, it's not fair to compare them.



FAST6191 said:


> Usually though it refers to the storytelling style -- fairly open and with characters you can bias vs rigid story structure with predefined characters. Or if you prefer one wants to be a computerised version of dungeons and dragons where the other would be a kind of interactive storybook.


The whole "look at the storytelling!" point is bad. This is something that is only encountered in the "jRPG and wRPG are genres" debate. *Games should be to be classified by gameplay* and nothing else, this goes for art style too.



FAST6191 said:


> It is entirely possible for a dev to make a game in either style regardless of their region of origin



This is the point I'm trying to make



FAST6191 said:


> dragon's dogma being an example of a Japanese dev not using the formula, the eventual fate of the Wizardry series being another interesting one. Equally lines have been very blurred as tech got better and restrictions lifted.



And you lost me here. There is no country specific formula for creating a game.


It's funny you bring up Wizardry because Wizardry is a great reason why wRPGs and jRPGs as genres don't exist.

To the people who don't know Wizardry created the dungeon crawler genre and the franchise started in the early 80s by. Wizardry is a title that your typical modern gamer won't really know. Well not outside Japan anyways. 

Wizardry did well in the United States and also in Japan. Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star are just some of the games inspired by Wizardry.

But tell me this how come games like Etrian Odyssey, Class of Heroes, Demon Gaze are considered Japanese RPGs (genre), but Wizardry, Might and Magic, Bard's Tale are considered western RPGs (genre)?



Veho said:


> There is enough distinct differences in gameplay and storytelling between the two styles to make them different subgenres at least.


As I said above storytelling does not contribute to gameplay mechanics which are how video games are classified. 
Japanese RPGs were born from Western RPGs, and take influence from them too.
Turn-based combat originated from Western RPGs such notably Wizardry and the overworld RPG mechanic was used in Ultima which is another RPG that influenced Japan.



Taleweaver said:


> I know. But you're missing the part "Not in the historical sense in which most video game genres evolved, at least." (and I assumed we were talking about video game RPG's).
> 
> link to my own sources (from 1:00 onwards).


People need to stop linking that video. If there was one video I could delete from the internet it's that. The guy has no clue what he's talking about. Japanese games were inspired by Western RPGs video games, not Japanese board games.
He's talking out of his ass, Horii has said several times that Western video games influenced Dragon Quest and Sakaguchi and others has said the same or said that it was a mixture between western RPGs and Dragon Quest. 
He also doesn't have any proof whatsoever to backup his info, he's assuming just because the same happened to Western RPG video games it applies to Japanese as well.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 15, 2014)

Might and magic (and all the things like it) are usually given as classic examples in the wRPG tradition, Dragon Quest (and Final fantasy and everything like those) would be an example classics of the jRPG tradition. Both form the bulk of efforts in a concept when dividing by geographic area. The last few years may well have rendered this something of a historical note, and I am quite happy for that to be the case, but I would still hold that it existed in the fist place and owing to the rather undeveloping/static nature of most games once they have been released...

How is story, when a game has one anyway, not related to the concept of gameplay? The difference between meaningful choices and not/just being along for the ride, especially given all but the weakest games would have something to change how things work here*, would speak to 

*my charisma matters little when I am using a spear or firing a bow, matters far more in town/non combat. If I have to spend upgrade points on one or the other then it plays into gameplay, especially if a branching path I might have had was changed. People seem to be calling Mass Effect a poor example but it still features this quite heavily.


""It is entirely possible for a dev to make a game in either style regardless of their region of origin"

This is the point I'm trying to make"

Nobody was really arguing otherwise, however in most things we tend to consider the most popular approaches and few would argue Japan was not mainly about what we have thus far dubbed JRPG. This modal average type approach is what I was heading for in those remaining examples.

"But tell me this how come games like Etrian Odyssey, Class of Heroes, Demon Gaze are considered Japanese RPGs (genre), but Wizardry, Might and Magic, Bard's Tale are considered western RPGs (genre)?"
Are they? Some might have confused the art styles but I am not sure if I have seen proper claims of them being JRPGs.


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## Veho (Sep 15, 2014)

CompassNorth said:


> As I said above storytelling does not contribute to gameplay mechanics which are how video games are classified.


They have different gameplay mechanics too.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 15, 2014)

Veho said:


> They have different gameplay mechanics too.


Even if they had identical mechanics, stylistics are all it takes for a separate genre. JRPG's are easily recognizable, you can immediately distinguish them from western RPG's _(because WRPG isn't a thing, the term is "RPG")_, henceforth they are a separate entity, or rather, a subgenre in a broad category of role-playing. You'll have to give it a rest though, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, despite overwhelming evidence.


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## TecXero (Sep 15, 2014)

I don't complain about them, I just ignore their existence, just like every other game that doesn't interest me. A lot of newer Japanese media seem to have tropes I find annoying. Not saying I can't enjoy Japanese media, I enjoyed Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood and plenty of JRPGs from the 90s. It's just tropes that tend to be prevalent in newer Japanese media prevents me from enjoying the media.

Not saying that the tropes are wrong or anything like that, just that I don't enjoy them. If you enjoy them, then continue enjoying them.


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## zeello (Sep 15, 2014)

Calling a Japanese game a WRPG will never become mainstream. The first thing anyone will think is that you incorrectly assumed where the game was made. (especially if the game lacks an anime art style)

Saying that a WRPG means made in the west is the most intellectually straightforward use of the term. It technically doesn't describe the game any better than "RPG" but 1) genres don't do this anyway, they are just fast food labels (Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot are both "3D platformers") If you want a know what a game is, ask for more detail, or play the damn game. 2) WRPG/JRPG do infer certain assumptions which often prove to be correct. Which is kind of the point of having genres. Not all fighting games are the same, but most are similar enough for the term " fighting game" to exist, which in turn helps to emphasize the significamce of those games which stray from the traditional mold. And lastly 3) Context matters. There are clues as to what someone means, besides simply the term they used.


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