# The followers of Trump and Jesus have something in common



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 11, 2021)

One day Trumpism will be a case study for religious movements.
What they have in common:

-Savior figure (Make America Great Again, Messiah)
-Discussions on how to overthrow government (violence or peacefully)
-Prophecy or "believing in the plan"

If Trump had actually stormed the Capitol and died instead of the poor woman who got shot, Trump would have become a martyr like Jesus.

I want to talk about the last point (believing in the plan): It is human nature to become passive and convincing oneself that others will solve one´s own problems. This is how Q came about (whether it was an internal invention or planted by somebody is irrelevant).
Trump already admitted defeat (and arguably betrayed his people) but there are still those who believe he will take power before his term ends (see a woman on CGTN yesterday). This is religious-like belief. People can´t accept reality because how much invested they are in an idea.
During the time of Jesus there were also people who wanted to act (Zealots) and attacked soldiers. And there was a passive majority who wanted to believe in the plan, even after the leader had been executed. And even kept on believing he would bring about change... even until this day.

Trumpism might survive us all, unfortunately. It would have had more long-lasting power if he had been killed though, as I mentioned.


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## Deleted User (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> One day Trumpism will be a case study for religious movements.
> What they have in common:
> 
> -Savior figure (Make America Great Again, Messiah)


Given the success of Christianity in the past ~2000 years, was Jesus wrong?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -Discussions on how to overthrow government (violence or peacefully)


*And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.*
Translation: Pay your taxes, obey the laws.

Granted, Jesus was trying to overthrow the Pharisees via trolling and bait-poasting - and one could argue attempting to subvert the Roman empire - but linking Trumpism to Jesus telling people to hold themselves and their leaders accountable to each other according to the spirit of the Law is probably not a good look if your goal is to denigrate Trumpism.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -Prophecy or "believing in the plan"
> 
> If Trump had actually stormed the Capitol and died instead of the poor woman who got shot, Trump would have become a martyr like Jesus.
> 
> ...


There are different kinds of power. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms gets into this - people power, terrain power, and raw military power. Probably more. Trump couldn't harness the last one, so he's moving to the other two.

As for them accepting his "loss", one should look at Democrat behavior in contesting electoral aberrations in previous elections, compare it to their behavior in this election, and meditate on the consequences of hypocrisy for one's perceived legitimacy. He may have lost the electioneering, but he is definitely winning the hearts and minds of a lot of people who are running out of things to lose.


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## Xzi (Jan 12, 2021)

Unfortunately you're right, his braindead cult worships him like the messiah despite the fact that he shares far more in common with the bible's description of the antichrist.  I wouldn't worry about him becoming a martyr though, he'd never put himself in any real (physical) danger.

The fact that such an obvious snake oil salesman can build up a large following is as much a failure of education as it is a failure of religion.  Critical thinking skills are severely lacking in the US, and especially in longtime red states.  On the religious side, Evangelicals in particular have always been primed for radicalization, all they needed was the right egomaniac to come along and convince them to take that last step in abandoning Christ's teachings entirely.  Now they're no better than ISIS, they only want their version of Sharia law ruling over America.


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## zxr750j (Jan 12, 2021)

Accepting everything someone's saying without doubt (like reading the bible, listening to trump or even your parents) apparently is human. At some point children learn to think for themselves, apparently some people don't.


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## Arecaidian Fox (Jan 12, 2021)

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.


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## spotanjo3 (Jan 12, 2021)

*FACEPALM*


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## Bladexdsl (Jan 12, 2021)

they have something in common alright they are both false idols


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## r5xscn (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -Savior figure (Make America Great Again, Messiah)
> -Discussions on how to overthrow government (violence or peacefully)
> -Prophecy or "believing in the plan"



Jesus did not tell the follower to overthrow the government lol. Please don't compare Jesus and Trump if you don't even know the teaching of Jesus.

I would not even try to compare Trump to Mao or Xi since I don't know Xi and Mao well.

But I can agree with @zxr750j that the followers are sometimes too trusting (often when the pastor said Jesus said... they did not try to check it with the bible or something like that).


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## Taleweaver (Jan 12, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> One day Trumpism will be a case study for religious *terrorist* movements.
> What they have in common:
> 
> -Savior figure (Make America Great Again, Messiah)
> ...


Fixed that for you. I mean...It really doesn't strike me as a detail that Jezus preached a peaceful way of life rather than violence.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 12, 2021)

r5xscn said:


> Jesus did not tell the follower to overthrow the government lol. Please don't compare Jesus and Trump if you don't even know the teaching of Jesus.


I did not say Jesus advocated violence (though it is possible; his speech has probably been "improved" to make him as good as possible, you can get a glimpse of that when comparing Mark with Matthew/Luke or John), but his movement was one in which these things were debated (see the popularity of Barabbas who could actually just be an alter ego of the historical Jesus; maybe his followers could not deal with his death and invented an extremely violent and an extremely peaceful version of the same person).

Just believe in the plan, boys. Trump is going 4D chess again.


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## Deleted User (Jan 12, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Unfortunately you're right, his braindead cult worships him like the messiah despite the fact that he shares far more in common with the bible's description of the antichrist.  I wouldn't worry about him becoming a martyr though, he'd never put himself in any real (physical) danger.


So you hate Christianity and Christians, you think they're vile evil stupid bigots who just need to ugh die already?

But we're also hypocrites who don't believe in our own beliefs as understood by someone who loathes us?

If Trump is an anti-Christ, why don't more lefties support him?

That's some excellent persuasive writing right there, you are really gonna make me change my mind by calling me braindead and telling me that my political leaders are the word you believe I will associate with evil. Very big-brained take on your part.



Xzi said:


> The fact that such an obvious snake oil salesman can build up a large following is as much a failure of education as it is a failure of religion.  Critical thinking skills are severely lacking in the US, and especially in longtime red states.


Tell me, how can Bernie still win?



Xzi said:


> On the religious side, Evangelicals in particular have always been primed for radicalization, all they needed was the right egomaniac to come along and convince them to take that last step in abandoning Christ's teachings entirely.  Now they're no better than ISIS, they only want their version of Sharia law ruling over America.


I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge and authority of the Bible, having apparently never read it and getting everything you know about it from people who hate it and Christians.

The next time you're downtown, look around for your local Rescue Mission. Look for the neon sign of a cross, with the words "Jesus Saves" nearby. If you're not too scared of poor people, go in and ask for a tour. Look at the beds that Christians paid for so homeless men, women, and children have a warm place to sleep. Go to the dinners often served by local churches, and ask the people spending hours every weekend cooking hot food for people wracked by poverty, despair, and addiction why they are so evil to disagree with you - the guy whose politics is in lockstep with every major bank in the USA, as well as billionaire Jeff Bezos.

I mean, you lefties are supposed to represent the poor, right? Surely you wouldn't be so grossed out by them that you'd chicken out?



zxr750j said:


> Accepting everything someone's saying without doubt (like reading the bible, listening to trump or even your parents) apparently is human. At some point children learn to think for themselves, apparently some people don't.


Ricky Gervais will never have children. In a hundred years, all the media he created will be gone, and there will be nothing except maybe a pile of moldering bones and if he's lucky a few notes in rotting books to show he ever existed.

Meanwhile, all the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, and other religious peoples of the world will keep on as they have for hundreds of years.

Given that religion apparently has evolutionary value, who is really the smart one here?


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## Xzi (Jan 12, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> So you hate Christianity and Christians, you think they're vile evil stupid bigots who just need to ugh die already?


Not at all, I'm overjoyed when I meet a Christian who actually believes in Jesus' teachings and lives their life accordingly.  Unfortunately, meeting that type of Christian has become almost as rare as finding a $100 bill just laying on the ground.  Far too many of them have chosen to worship a false idol instead, the orange calf.



MysticLord said:


> If Trump is an anti-Christ, why don't more lefties support him?


Because Jesus is basically the OG Socialist.  "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven," remember?



MysticLord said:


> That's some excellent persuasive writing right there, you are really gonna make me change my mind by calling me braindead and telling me that my political leaders are the word you believe I will associate with evil. Very big-brained take on your part.


None of what I wrote was meant to persuade you to quit the cult you've joined, nor do I think it is possible for anyone else to make you quit.  Only you can choose to do that for yourself.



MysticLord said:


> Tell me, how can Bernie still win?


I don't see how that's relevant, I didn't mention Bernie Sanders in my post at all.  Since you brought him up though, here's the good news: thanks to Dems winning the Senate, he's now the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee.  Biden will need Sanders' approval in order to gain funding for any of his policies/proposals, so the position comes with a lot of power.



MysticLord said:


> I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge and authority of the Bible, having apparently never read it and getting everything you know about it from people who hate it and Christians.


Since it was one of the only options in our area, I attended a Christian middle school.  Over two years I had to memorize almost the entire bible, though I've tried to forget whatever I could since moving on to high school, in order to make room for knowledge in other subjects.



MysticLord said:


> The next time you're downtown, look around for your local Rescue Mission. Look for the neon sign of a cross, with the words "Jesus Saves" nearby. If you're not too scared of poor people, go in and ask for a tour. Look at the beds that Christians paid for so homeless men, women, and children have a warm place to sleep. Go to the dinners often served by local churches, and ask the people spending hours every weekend cooking hot food for people wracked by poverty, despair, and addiction why they are so evil to disagree with you - the guy whose politics is in lockstep with every major bank in the USA, as well as billionaire Jeff Bezos.
> 
> I mean, you lefties are supposed to represent the poor, right? Surely you wouldn't be so grossed out by them that you'd chicken out?


None of the homeless shelters/soup kitchens closest to me are run by churches, and I know that because I have volunteered at a couple of them.  Meanwhile, we do have a number of megachurches in my state, and the cost for the construction of just one of them could've easily fed and sheltered every homeless person in the state for years.  This type of grift has been going on since the beginning of Christianity/religion in general, and it's kind of pathetic that people haven't become any better at spotting it in 2000+ years.


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## Deleted User (Jan 12, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Not at all, I'm overjoyed when I meet a Christian who actually believes in Jesus' teachings and lives their life accordingly.  Unfortunately, meeting that type of Christian has become almost as rare as finding a $100 bill just laying on the ground.  Far too many of them have chosen to worship a false idol instead, the orange calf.


Are you sure you want someone who does that?
https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm


> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.



On a more practical note, left-wing denominations are declining and have been for decades, while stuff like Sedevacantism is the fastest growing Catholic offshoot. Right-wing denominations are having at least 2 babies for every 1 that those on the left have.

If people who believe in your niche understanding of Christianity do not reproduce and eventually die out, was it really the right teaching? If one's interpretation of scripture causes one to go extinct, then I'm not inclined to agree with it.



Xzi said:


> Because Jesus is basically the OG Socialist.  "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven," remember?


If Jesus is a socialist, then why did the NKVD liquidate millions of Christians after the Bolsheviks seized power?



Xzi said:


> None of what I wrote was meant to persuade you to quit the cult you've joined, nor do I think it is possible for anyone else to make you quit.  Only you can choose to do that for yourself.


I'll stick with the "cult" that has 2000 years of staying power over your "totally not a cult" that has failed in every state where in gains power.



Xzi said:


> I don't see how that's relevant, I didn't mention Bernie Sanders in my post at all.  Since you brought him up though, here's the good news: thanks to Dems winning the Senate, he's now the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee.  Biden will need Sanders' approval in order to gain funding for any of his policies/proposals, so the position comes with a lot of power.


Just keep voting for Bernie in every primary and maybe someday you'll get someone who's not a warmongering neoliberal to run as the Democrat candidate for President. Have faith!



Xzi said:


> Since it was one of the only options in our area, I attended a Christian middle school.  Over two years I had to memorize almost the entire bible, though I've tried to forget whatever I could since moving on to high school, in order to make room for knowledge in other subjects.


What was the issue with the public schools? Are bougie socialists too good for public school?



Xzi said:


> None of the homeless shelters/soup kitchens closest to me are run by churches, and I know that because I have volunteered at a couple of them.  Meanwhile, we do have a number of megachurches in my state, and the cost for the construction of just one of them could've easily fed and sheltered every homeless person in the state for years.  This type of grift has been going on since the beginning of Christianity/religion in general, and it's kind of pathetic that people haven't become any better at spotting it in 2000+ years.


I call BS. I've personally volunteered at Christian-run Missions in Oregon (Salem, Eugene, Roseburg, Coos Bay), Idaho (Boise, Meridian), California (Eureka aka lmao dude weed central), Sioux Falls, Nebraska (Omaha, Lincoln, Grand Island), Council Bluffs, Ohio (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Akron, Warren), Wyoming (Cheyenne), Salt Lake City, Denver. There's a Christian-run Mission in at least every state capital in the USA.


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## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I did not say Jesus advocated violence (though it is possible; his speech has probably been "improved" to make him as good as possible, you can get a glimpse of that when comparing Mark with Matthew/Luke or John), but his movement was one in which these things were debated (see the popularity of Barabbas who could actually just be an alter ego of the historical Jesus; maybe his followers could not deal with his death and invented an extremely violent and an extremely peaceful version of the same person).
> 
> Just believe in the plan, boys. Trump is going 4D chess again.


His speech is written by his students? Of course, it has been translated into many languages, but you can read those translations or the original if you want. Many people doubt the bible and said that it has been altered but can't provide any proof.

Regarding the first 4 books in the new testament, you can use those books interchangeably and those basically said the same stuff with the addition here and there which is expected because the writers are different.

His followers became extremely violent? Jesus already said to the follower and especially to the students that He will be put on the cross and will be back on the third day. If the followers are liars, why don't they just write that the angels beat the priests and the Rome soldiers and went back to heaven by riding on a pegasus or something lol? That way it's easier and people like a huge comeback story lol.

Matthew also wrote that the priest waited until Passover is done so that the mass does not riot over the prosecution of Jesus. And you wondered why the follower is peaceful lol.

Another thing is Jesus never told people to attack each other for injustice.

Of course, you can doubt all of the content in the bible and just believe your rhetoric/opinion.

To be fair, I have a huge bias toward his teaching and IMO unless you are a hypocrite like the priests in the bible, I wonder why would you dislike the Son of man? The Son of man only taught people to love God and to love their neighbor as if themselves.

Hey while we are at it why don't we start doubting our history? The history is written by the side of the winner and not the loser.



MysticLord said:


> Are you sure you want someone who does that?
> https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm



Then I have good news for you. Jesus also doesn't like those pharisee and law abiders who study the law of Moses but did not practice the law of God (the 10 testaments). The bible also wrote that Jesus protects a woman who did adultery from being stoned and told people to check themselves before judging other people.

But I won't blame you if you think Christianity is bad, because many people claim they are Christian but only in their speech and not in their doing.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 13, 2021)

I just wanted to point out the religious nature of a part of Trump supporters, especially the Q crowd.
It is human nature to deceive oneself in this way.
This is true for voters of both parties btw: You (democracts) think Russians "hacked" the election because you lost and you think there was no voter fraud because you won (and courts dismissed the cases; which is not proof of absence of evidence btw).

That said, I doubt history all the time. What we can say about Jesus with near certainty is that he was an endtimes prophet, follower of John the Baptist, that he gathered his own followers, got the attention of the Romans and was killed. His followers did not admit defeat but made the symbol of humiliation into their brand (the cross) and built a theology around it. The later you go (John), the more perfect Jesus appears (compared to Mk, which was also probably written 30-40 years after the events).
Imagine a world without internet and cameras and in a certain amount of time Trump would also have turned into divine emperor Trump.


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## mikefor20 (Jan 13, 2021)

Also, they both have someone magic to blame... no matter what.  The devil gets the blame in christianity. No matter the facts. "The devil wears many masks". 
Trump does the same thing with antifa and the Democrats. Even when the evidence says otherwise. As if some "invisible force" is responsible for all wrong doing. 

One you convince people of this you can make them believe anything....


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## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That said, I doubt history all the time. What we can say about Jesus with near certainty is that he was an endtimes prophet, follower of John the Baptist, that he gathered his own followers, got the attention of the Romans and was killed. His followers did not admit defeat but made the symbol of humiliation into their brand (the cross) and built a theology around it. The later you go (John), the more perfect Jesus appears (compared to Mk, which was also probably written 30-40 years after the events).
> Imagine a world without internet and cameras and in a certain amount of time Trump would also have turned into divine emperor Trump.


I won't comment on US election since I am not American.

John is not the follower of Jesus, when he met Jesus, he said that he is not worthy even for untieing His shoes. Before you start to say that Jesus found that John is famous, so let's become famous by following him, I should stop you. The bible also said that Jesus has already rich in wisdom since his childhood by telling the story of Him debating in the temple and His parents forgot about Him.

Here is a point that you can doubt (which I also don't understand), why did John send his disciple to Jesus to ask if He is the messiah if he baptized Jesus and hear the voice of God during the baptism? This thing is still a puzzle for me.

And there are a lot of misunderstandings in that paragraph (and I doubt reading the bible will even point you to the right answer because of "bias", human understanding is heavily affected by their bias), His followers did not admit defeat and got killed too lol by the jews and Roman empire. I wonder what is the benefit for them if Jesus is a liar. Basically, the bible said to be ready to be prosecuted because of the name of Jesus, or simply said it already warned the reader if you become Christian you are risking your life in reward of salvation in the afterlife.

I also awed by your bias, a story that I believe as a sacrifice to save humans and to correct their ways became a story of humiliation. But again I don't doubt that this is not trolling because those hypocrites in the past already made countermeasures against Jesus and those are also written in the bible if you wish to read/confirm. (Jesus went back to alive after 3 days? The disciples stole his body IKR lol \s).

Doubting everything is a good thing, but not trying to find proof is a bad thing.

FYI I am a bad Christian (in most Christian definition), I do not like to go to a church or grouping. I read the bible for fun and study, and not for research in theology or something.



omgcat said:


> natural selection doesn't work like that. if anyone reproduces that doesn't have a religion (lots of people), it becomes a neutral evolutionary trait at best, and negative trait at worst (religious extermination). people have no sense of timescale since our year is 2021. in reality we have been fucking around with religion for ~70,000 years, and dicking with fire for almost 1,700,000-2,000,000 years. to put that in perspective, Christianity has existed for 0.119% of time since fire was discovered. there is evidence of belief in an afterlife, and other rituals as far back as 200,000BC. fuck a majority of Christians still don't believe in evolution even though we're watching the coronavirus mutate in real time.
> 
> the chances of ANYONE's religion being the right one is basically 0.


Thanks, I got a good laugh out of this.
Yeah, shame on those Christians who don't believe a proven science lol.

Just follow what you think is right guys, just don't force others into your beliefs.


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## omgcat (Jan 13, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> Ricky Gervais will never have children. In a hundred years, all the media he created will be gone, and there will be nothing except maybe a pile of moldering bones and if he's lucky a few notes in rotting books to show he ever existed.
> 
> Meanwhile, all the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, and other religious peoples of the world will keep on as they have for hundreds of years.
> 
> Given that religion apparently has evolutionary value, who is really the smart one here?



natural selection doesn't work like that. if anyone reproduces that doesn't have a religion (lots of people), it becomes a neutral evolutionary trait at best, and negative trait at worst (religious extermination). people have no sense of timescale since our year is 2021. in reality we have been fucking around with religion for ~70,000 years, and dicking with fire for almost 1,700,000-2,000,000 years. to put that in perspective, Christianity has existed for 0.119% of time since fire was discovered. there is evidence of belief in an afterlife, and other rituals as far back as 200,000BC. fuck a majority of Christians still don't believe in evolution even though we're watching the coronavirus mutate in real time.

the chances of ANYONE's religion being the right one is basically 0.


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## Xzi (Jan 13, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> On a more practical note, left-wing denominations are declining and have been for decades, while stuff like Sedevacantism is the fastest growing Catholic offshoot. Right-wing denominations are having at least 2 babies for every 1 that those on the left have.
> 
> If people who believe in your niche understanding of Christianity do not reproduce and eventually die out, was it really the right teaching? If one's interpretation of scripture causes one to go extinct, then I'm not inclined to agree with it.


Yeah...I couldn't care less what does or doesn't happen to Christianity in the future.  It's already lost a lot of influence here in the present, with all the various pedophilia scandals in the Catholic church and whatnot.



MysticLord said:


> If Jesus is a socialist, then why did the NKVD liquidate millions of Christians after the Bolsheviks seized power?


Lenin's brand of authoritarian communism was about as far from syndicalism or socialism as it gets.  Socialism is a set of economic principles, it isn't inherently inclusive or exclusive to any religion.



MysticLord said:


> I'll stick with the "cult" that has 2000 years of staying power over your "totally not a cult" that has failed in every state where in gains power.


I was clearly referring to Trumpism there, not Christianity.  Though as I've already explained, the former is incompatible with the latter, and has overtaken it in large part.



MysticLord said:


> Just keep voting for Bernie in every primary and maybe someday you'll get someone who's not a warmongering neoliberal to run as the Democrat candidate for President. Have faith!


He says, knowing full well Trump tried to start WW3 in week one of 2020, and continues to try to spark a second civil war.  Let me guess, you probably voted GWB twice, too.  "Warmongering neoliberal" is practically a compliment within the Republican party at this point.

I won't make any excuses for Obama, our involvement in Libya was unnecessary.  It was also very limited, which is why we won't be dealing with the fallout from it in twenty years like we are now with Afghanistan/Iraq.



MysticLord said:


> What was the issue with the public schools? Are bougie socialists too good for public school?


No issue...by context alone you should've been able to figure out that I attended a public elementary school and a public high school, along with community college.  And "bougie socialists?"  Really?  



MysticLord said:


> I call BS. I've personally volunteered at Christian-run Missions in Oregon (Salem, Eugene, Roseburg, Coos Bay), Idaho (Boise, Meridian), California (Eureka aka lmao dude weed central), Sioux Falls, Nebraska (Omaha, Lincoln, Grand Island), Council Bluffs, Ohio (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Akron, Warren), Wyoming (Cheyenne), Salt Lake City, Denver. There's a Christian-run Mission in at least every state capital in the USA.


You seem to have a bit of trouble with reading comprehension.  I didn't say there were zero church-run missions in my entire state, just that none of the ones closest to me are.  My point about megachurches stands, and there's another argument to be made against the tax-exempt status of churches as well.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 13, 2021)

r5xscn said:


> John is not the follower of Jesus


I wrote Jesus is the follower of John (which is pretty much established by Christian and Non-Christian scholars).



r5xscn said:


> , when he met Jesus, he said that he is not worthy even for untieing His shoes.


No, this is not what John the Baptist said. It is what Matthew claims John the Baptist said.
Who is Matthew? One of Jesus´s followers. It is no wonder that he wants to make his master appear better than John the baptist. He somehow had to explain why there is even a need for his master - who is a divine figure - to be baptist by anyone. We do not find this statement in Mark (which was presumably written earlier than Matthew).
This is how an historian thinks. You think like a gullible primary school student.




r5xscn said:


> Before you start to say that Jesus found that John is famous, so let's become famous by following him, I should stop you.


This thought never came to me in my life. At least you are capable of original thinking.




r5xscn said:


> The bible also said that Jesus has already rich in wisdom since his childhood by telling the story of Him debating in the temple and His parents forgot about Him.


Yes, that´s one of the later stories that people came up with when people started to wonder "what was Jesus like as a child?" There are many more stories about Baby Jesus and little Jesus (some have found their way in the Quran btw) people came up with.
First people believed Jesus was somewhat divine by adoption at his batism ("this is my son"), then because of divine conception (Mary the virgin) and finally he was the reason of the world´s existence itself (John 1:1).



r5xscn said:


> Here is a point that you can doubt (which I also don't understand), why did John send his disciple to Jesus to ask if He is the messiah if he baptized Jesus and hear the voice of God during the baptism? This thing is still a puzzle for me.


You´re welcome.
The baptism of Jesus is historical. There is no reason for his followers to invent a story that makes him look lower than another master. But they had to come up with ways to justify it (see above).



r5xscn said:


> His followers did not admit defeat and got killed too lol by the jews and Roman empire.


They could not deal with the death of their master. Jews do not believe in a defeated Messiah. The Messiah defeats. Since Jesus was killed, he was exposed as a wrong Messiah like many before and after him (and since the endtimes did not come he was exposed as a failed prophet as well, but this does not stop you apparently).
So his followers came up with crazier and crazier justifications (he will come back, he is God himself etc) just like we can see how some Trump followers still think Trump will remain president (as seen on Live TV recently). Believe in the plan, man!



r5xscn said:


> I wonder what is the benefit for them if Jesus is a liar. Basically, the bible said to be ready to be prosecuted because of the name of Jesus, or simply said it already warned the reader if you become Christian you are risking your life in reward of salvation in the afterlife.


A great marketing strategy. Also works in Islam, for example.
If you believe in Trump you will be persecuted but do not dispair: in the afterlife there is blabla.
If you really believe this marketing trick, why don´t you go to a country in which there is actually the threat of death for spreading the word AS YOUR MASTER DEMANDS OF YOU? Go to North Korea or Saudi Arabia and start preaching. Why are we still debating?
You just admitted you are a bad Christian. If you really believe, you will do something about it. Deeds speak louder than words. Go on, plan your journey.


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## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I wrote Jesus is the follower of John (which is pretty much established by Christian and Non-Christian scholars).


Whoops, meant to wrote it as Jesus is not a follower of John, sorry about that.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> No, this is not what John the Baptist said. It is what Matthew claims John the Baptist said.
> Who is Matthew? One of Jesus´s followers. It is no wonder that he wants to make his master appear better than John the baptist. He somehow had to explain why there is even a need for his master - who is a divine figure - to be baptist by anyone. We do not find this statement in Mark (which was presumably written earlier than Matthew).
> This is how an historian thinks. You think like a gullible primary school student.


Correct, it is written by the disciple of Jesus and not John. I never claimed that I am a historian.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Yes, that´s one of the later stories that people came up with when people started to wonder "what was Jesus like as a child?" There are many more stories about Baby Jesus and little Jesus (some have found their way in the Quran btw) people came up with.
> First people believed Jesus was somewhat divine by adoption at his batism ("this is my son"), then because of divine conception (Mary the virgin) and finally he was the reason of the world´s existence itself (John 1:1).


I am not going to refute you. I heard / read that the childhood of Jesus was from his mother (and again... written by His disciple).



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You´re welcome.
> The baptism of Jesus is historical. There is no reason for his followers to invent a story that makes him look lower than another master. But they had to come up with ways to justify it (see above).


That I leave it to your imagination, nothing that I will say will convince you, and I am not even trying to convince you.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> They could not deal with the death of their master. Jews do not believe in a defeated Messiah. The Messiah defeats. Since Jesus was killed, he was exposed as a wrong Messiah like many before and after him (and since the endtimes did not come he was exposed as a failed prophet as well, but this does not stop you apparently).
> So his followers came up with crazier and crazier justifications (he will come back, he is God himself etc) just like we can see how some Trump followers still think Trump will remain president (as seen on Live TV recently). Believe in the plan, man!


Based on your reply
"
It is what Matthew claims John the Baptist said.
Who is Matthew? One of Jesus´s followers. I
"
, there is no point in arguing more. Hey, why would we even read the encyclopedia, school textbooks, etc. It is rewritten by someone else. It is up to you to doubt the writer.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> A great marketing strategy. Also works in Islam, for example.
> If you believe in Trump you will be persecuted but do not dispair: in the afterlife there is blabla.
> If you really believe this marketing trick, why don´t you go to a country in which there is actually the thread of death for spreading the word AS YOUR MASTER DEMANDS OF YOU? Go to North Korea or Saudi Arabia and start preaching. Why are we still debating?
> You just admitted you are a bad Christian. If you really believe, you will do something about it. Deeds speak louder than words. Go on, plan your journey.



Here is my take on that.
The bible said: If you do as Jesus said, you might be prosecuted but promised to be in His kingdom.
My response: sure it is better to believe in the afterlife instead of believing that there is nothing after death.
Why do I believe in Jesus? Hey, He teaches people to be peaceful, I want to be peaceful, so I will follow his teachings. That's my logic, it may sound dumb. I did not claim I am perfect and the sharpest tool in the drawer.

Believing in Jesus =! going everywhere forcing everyone to do the same otherwise call them heathens.
Jesus never told his disciple to do that (or so what His disciple wrote and translated as you said).

Here is an example, in one of the event Jesus was with Martha and Maria, Martha was busy with preparing the cooking or something and Maria did not help. Jesus did not rebuke Maria but instead said it is better to hear the word instead of busy doing something else. The key point here is doing evangelism is not the whole point of Christianism. Following His teaching is.

If you think a good Christian = doing evangelism and forcing opinions on others then boy, I wonder what type of Christian you met lol.

Also a final point, I do respect Jesus as written in the bible and tries to follow His teachings. Whether the bible is fact or not is another point. Lets just say I am a 13 years old who watches Naruto and found that Naruto is great and tries to mimic his action IRL.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 13, 2021)

It probably would be more accurate to compare it to a cult than a religion, so you could use Scientology for comparison.

Whenever I read a Christian bringing up Jesus, I ask myself: Have they forgotten who God is? Jesus is His son. God's name is Jehovah (or Yahweh).


----------



## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

Boesy said:


> It probably would be more accurate to compare it to a cult than a religion, so you could use Scientology for comparison.
> 
> Whenever I read a Christian bringing up Jesus, I ask myself: Have they forgotten who God is? Jesus is His son. God's name is Jehovah (or Yahweh).


Christianism was a cult at one point too.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 13, 2021)

r5xscn said:


> Lets just say I am a 13 years old who watches Naruto and found that Naruto is great and tries to mimic his action IRL.


You are 13 years old?


----------



## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You are 13 years old?


Nah, in order of magnitude of that. But lets just say that.

The point is that I follow the teaching of Jesus not because of the reward, it's just because it matches with my ideals. Same as why someone would believe in Hitler because his actions match his ideals.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jan 13, 2021)

r5xscn said:


> Christianism was a cult at one point too.


Still is


----------



## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

Shadow#1 said:


> Still is


Thank you for the correction, I do somewhat agree that it is like a cult haha.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Jan 13, 2021)

I think it's fair to say that many Trump supporters do come across like they're in a cult.  Obviously not all of them, but their loudest ones can absolutely come across that way.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 13, 2021)

r5xscn said:
			
		

> Why do I believe in Jesus? Hey, He teaches people to be peaceful, I want to be peaceful, so I will follow his teachings.


Being peaceful is not the core of what Jesus taught. After all, the Bible mentions his return in which he will destroy those who do not believe in him.
Buddha sounds much more peaceful. Why don´t you follow him?



			
				r5xscn said:
			
		

> Believing in Jesus =! going everywhere forcing everyone to do the same otherwise call them heathens.
> Jesus never told his disciple to do that (or so what His disciple wrote and translated as you said).


I didn´t claim that either. You shouldn´t force people do to anything (though the word "compel" appears in the story of the wedding), but you do have an obligation to spread the word. Millions of North Koreans and Arabs have not heard the word. Why are you risking your afterlife by talking to me instead of going to these people? Are you saying Jesus did not command his followers to evangelize?



			
				r5xscn said:
			
		

> Here is an example, in one of the event Jesus was with Martha and Maria, Martha was busy with preparing the cooking or something and Maria did not help. Jesus did not rebuke Maria but instead said it is better to hear the word instead of busy doing something else. The key point here is doing evangelism is not the whole point of Christianism. Following His teaching is.


No, you misunderstood the story. The busy sister did not evangelize! Jesus already believed, didn´t he?
Following his teachings includes spreading the word.


----------



## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Being peaceful is not the core of what Jesus taught. After all, the Bible mentions his return in which he will destroy those who do not believe in him.


What makes you think that that is not the core of what Jesus taught? It's basically, do good, otherwise, you will get yer ass some whooping. There is action and there is a reaction. Just because the bad guy is not punished now, does not mean it won't be done later.

I believe Him not because of the promise for letting me in heaven or something. I believed His teachings (the one written in the bible) because I want to. Why don't I believe in Buddha? Well, first I don't follow Buddhism, but I do respect people who believe in Buddha or any other gods, its their choice.

It does sound like a ransom tho. Some Christians used it as a scare tactic in evangelism, which I believed was wrong, because if you never heard Jesus and you died, what will become of you? Into the hell? That's injustice IMO.

Here is what I like from the bible. Matthew 13:24 The tares and the wheat. In the end, the tares and the wheat will be separated and the tares will be burn. What differs the tares and the wheat? The wheat brings forth fruits and the tares does not. What fruits? Galatians 5:22~23. 
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I didn´t claim that either. You shouldn´t force people do to anything (though the word "compel" appears in the story of the wedding), but you do have an obligation to spread the word. Millions of North Koreans and Arabs have not heard the word. Why are you risking your afterlife by talking to me instead of going to these people? Are you saying Jesus did not command his followers to evangelize?



I am not saying that Jesus did not command the followers to evangelize. I said that it is not the only thing of being a Christian. Would you prefer a corrupt Christian that evangelizes or a good Christian that does not evangelize? 
The bible said that if you do what Jesus said, people will see that Christian = good and start to get interested in the teachings. That's one form of evangelism.

Its not just lets crusade to North Korea and whoop their asses if they dont follow us. That's just an excuse for colonializing or invading a country, which brings bad name to Christianism. I do believe justice will prevail on the judgment day.





UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> No, you misunderstood the story. The busy sister did not evangelize! Jesus already believed, didn´t he?
> Following his teachings includes spreading the word.


I did not say Martha evangelized, I said she is busy doing the cooking or something (basically servicing others). Spreading the word does not always equal to do "Jehova witness door knocking".


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 13, 2021)

r5xscn said:


> Its not just lets crusade to North Korea and whoop their asses if they dont follow us.


That´s now what I suggested. It is not what people did in the Bible. They went to foreign lands (like Paul), spread the word and risked their lives doing so. So why don´t you go to North Korea or Saudi Arabia and get persecuted for your belief? It is what Jesus´s true followers did and do.


----------



## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That´s now what I suggested. It is not what people did in the Bible. They went to foreign lands (like Paul), spread the word and risked their lives doing so. So why don´t you go to North Korea or Saudi Arabia and get persecuted for your belief? It is what Jesus´s true followers did and do.



Hey, they just spread the word. Not like in the modern era where nations conquer other nations under the flag of Christianism. 

In the bible, Jesus said if you preach to new villages or area and they refused it, then let it be, it will be on them on judgment day (which they probably also does not believe lol). Not whoop their asses if they don't believe.

The point here is not all Christians = preachers and not all preachers are doing it for Jesus.

I do often fall to the same conclusion tho.
For example, if I went to a store and got bad service I probably said the whole brand sucks because of a sample size of 1. But again, why would I try other stores if I already got a bad experience. 
Unless its KFC and I will try to justify that it does not happen in other stores lol.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 13, 2021)

r5xscn said:


> Not whoop their asses if they don't believe.


Can you stop it? I never suggested that. I suggested you should get your ass kicked by non-believers who have not heard the word yet. This is the Christian way. It is your safest way to go to heaven. You already said you are a bad Christian. Therefore you should be afraid of hell.
The truth is, you don´t really believe in Christianity. You just find it pleasant and deceive yourself into believing that everything will be ok, just like Trump´s Q crowd.


----------



## r5xscn (Jan 13, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Can you stop it? I never suggested that. I suggested you should get your ass kicked by non-believers who have not heard the word yet. This is the Christian way. It is your safest way to go to heaven. You already said you are a bad Christian. Therefore you should be afraid of hell.
> The truth is, you don´t really believe in Christianity. You just find it pleasant and deceive yourself into believing that everything will be ok, just like Trump´s Q crowd.



Sorry if I misunderstood you, "I suggested you should get your ass kicked by non-believers who have not heard the word yet" but yes you are correct. This is what the bible suggested. I am not afraid of hell. If God deemed that I am not good enough then be it. I am not saying that everything will be okay. I said all action has its effect, including doing nothing. I won't even judge your action.

I commented on your thread because I think one of your statements is wrong and here is what I think is correct. You are free to believe what you want. For that reason, I will stop commenting because the further discussion is useless.

Edit: the misunderstanding is caused by your own mistake (typo below "That's now what I suggested.").


UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That´s now what I suggested. It is not what people did in the Bible. They went to foreign lands (like Paul), spread the word and risked their lives doing so. So why don´t you go to North Korea or Saudi Arabia and get persecuted for your belief? It is what Jesus´s true followers did and do.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 14, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Yeah...I couldn't care less what does or doesn't happen to Christianity in the future.  It's already lost a lot of influence here in the present, with all the various pedophilia scandals in the Catholic church and whatnot.


Really? Have you seen the resurgence of Christianity in the former USSR?

Besides that, how does Christians having more kids than atheists bode well for atheism?



Xzi said:


> Lenin's brand of authoritarian communism was about as far from syndicalism or socialism as it gets.  Socialism is a set of economic principles, it isn't inherently inclusive or exclusive to any religion.


It wasn't Real Socialism, gotcha. Definitely never head that before.

Besides that, why do you as I presume a non-religious person have a personal commitment to any ideology? Shouldn't you commit only to those ideas that benefit you personally, regardless of originating ideology?



Xzi said:


> I was clearly referring to Trumpism there, not Christianity.  Though as I've already explained, the former is incompatible with the latter, and has overtaken it in large part.


Have you studied the origins of the Nazi party in post-WWI Germany? Do you know what the Spartacist Uprising was? Do you know about the mass murder and genocide of Christians and kulaks in Ukraine, and how refugees fleeing that to Germany as well as attacks by the OG antifa on the center-right conservative party led to the rise of the Nazi party?

Repression always leads to fascism, yet the apparent goal of the left is to oppress Trump voters, who were happy to support a guy whose policies were those of a Democrat from 1994. This will lead to them going further right, not to capitulation (though it may seem like many are capitulating when they are actually going underground).

You should worry less about Trump and more about the guy who comes after him; and how the policies you support (outsourcing, scab labor for corporations, radical centralization of federal power under neo-libs like Clinton and Obama - and to be fair, neocons like Bush I and II) created Trump and will create something far worse for you and America than him.



Xzi said:


> He says, knowing full well Trump tried to start WW3 in week one of 2020, and continues to try to spark a second civil war.  Let me guess, you probably voted GWB twice, too.  "Warmongering neoliberal" is practically a compliment within the Republican party at this point.


I seem to remember Hillary Clinton promising to send troops to Ukraine to fight Russian soldiers on Russia's border. I also remember Democrats and Republicans first praising Trump when he bombed an empty tarmac in Syria, and then accusing him of being a Russian agent and impeaching him for not starting a war with Russia.

That you don't remember this indicates that you lack object permanence or that you are insincere. Neither bodes well for the rest of your arguments.

I first voted for Kerry, then Obama, then Ron Paul, and then Trump. 

I'll give you this though, the traitors in the Republican can absolutely be called warmongering neoliberals. Unfortunately for America and the word, your boy Biden stacked his cabinet with Dubya alumni. If you were informed beyond parroting what your peers spew, you'd know this.



Xzi said:


> I won't make any excuses for Obama, our involvement in Libya was unnecessary.  It was also very limited, which is why we won't be dealing with the fallout from it in twenty years like we are now with Afghanistan/Iraq.


Really? Ghaddafi's son is getting close to cleaning up the rebels/freedom-fighters/whatever, just in time for the Biden administration.

As for it being limited, there are slave markets for castrated sub-Saharan African men in Libya today. There are also millions of Libyans and sub-Saharan Africans in Western Europe right  now largely because Ghaddafi was assassinated, there was no one to protect Libya's southern border, and there's money to be made in smuggling people to Germany, France, and Britain.

We may have avoided fallout from it, but Europe hasn't. Besides, Biden wants to increase refugee intake as much as he can. Another Libyan war would be just the ticket, and soon afterwards we'd get to experience the joys of even greater diversity.



Xzi said:


> No issue...by context alone you should've been able to figure out that I attended a public elementary school and a public high school, along with community college.  And "bougie socialists?"  Really?


Interesting response, more for what it doesn't say than what it does.



Xzi said:


> You seem to have a bit of trouble with reading comprehension.  I didn't say there were zero church-run missions in my entire state, just that none of the ones closest to me are.  My point about megachurches stands, and there's another argument to be made against the tax-exempt status of churches as well.


If you want to remove the tax-exempt status of chuches then it's only fair to do it for all charities, especially those who belong to the secular state religion that you espouse.

Megachurches are best broken up with vigorous fraud and white collar crime investigations and prosecutions.

Speaking of white collar crime, the two cities with the largest number of white collar crime convictions are New York and Salt Lake City. I leave it to you to figure out why, because neither of these cities are bastions of Christianity*.

*Mormons are about as Christian as Muslims, both in terms in text and historical behavior towards Christians. If you don't believe me, look into Mitt Romney's tenure at Bain Capital, the religious makeup of the towns whose livelihoods he sold to China, and his status as a Mormon.



r5xscn said:


> Then I have good news for you. Jesus also doesn't like those pharisee and law abiders who study the law of Moses but did not practice the law of God (the 10 testaments). The bible also wrote that Jesus protects a woman who did adultery from being stoned and told people to check themselves before judging other people.


Did you miss the part where Jesus said, "Go and sin no more"? He was advocating for second chances, not a license to sin.



omgcat said:


> natural selection doesn't work like that. if anyone reproduces that doesn't have a religion (lots of people), it becomes a neutral evolutionary trait at best, and negative trait at worst (religious extermination). people have no sense of timescale since our year is 2021. in reality we have been fucking around with religion for ~70,000 years, and dicking with fire for almost 1,700,000-2,000,000 years. to put that in perspective, Christianity has existed for 0.119% of time since fire was discovered. there is evidence of belief in an afterlife, and other rituals as far back as 200,000BC. fuck a majority of Christians still don't believe in evolution even though we're watching the coronavirus mutate in real time.
> 
> the chances of ANYONE's religion being the right one is basically 0.


Consider the sociological implications of religion, not whether or not they are factually correct.

It's only neutral if it doesn't help or harm the odds of reproduction.

What I'm saying is it seems that political leanings are at least partially heritable, and absent the heavy hand of the patriarchy enforcing shotgun marriages and banning birth control, left-leaning people tend to not reproduce as much as those who lean right. It doesn't mean a lot in one or two generations, but like all things exponential once it gets going it stays going.

By not enforcing reproduction on everyone, and by erecting barriers to reproduction*, it ensures only those predisposed to fecundity and capable of sustaining themselves in a neoliberal/conservative hellscape such as our world reproduce.

*Barriers being:
1. Lack of affordable childcare due to destruction of extended families which leads to the need for both parents to work so a kid can be put in daycare.
2. Globalization increasing competition between workers, reducing the bargaining power of Labor, and making it more difficult for everyone but the most well-connected or those most willing to scam the system to have kids.
3. Increased housing costs due to increased migration, to which the Left responds with population density maps of the USA... as if we all want to live in a crowded favela.
4. Race to the bottom in product quality. Planned obsolescence is the only way that large firms can make money producing goods at scale. If Ford made 10 million trucks a year that last 40 years, in 10 years no one would need to buy any new trucks for a generation. This is intrinsic to scaled-up corporation systems of productions regardless of their stated economic system. China pays people to consume resources and pollute the environment making pointless junk because they need to keep the proles busy to avoid unrest, and as a form of mercantile imperialism against their foreign competition. The USA pays people to consume resources and pollute the environment making pointless junk so the current CEO can make another $40 million a year in stock options. They're both managed economies, they both are hideously destructive, and both should be rejected.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 14, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> Really? Have you seen the resurgence of Christianity in the former USSR?
> 
> Besides that, how does Christians having more kids than atheists bode well for atheism?


Again, I just don't have the same obsession over which religion will "rule the future" that you apparently do.  The Abrahamic religions all seem dead set on exterminating each other, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their long-term prospects.



MysticLord said:


> It wasn't Real Socialism, gotcha. Definitely never head that before.
> 
> Besides that, why do you as I presume a non-religious person have a personal commitment to any ideology? Shouldn't you commit only to those ideas that benefit you personally, regardless of originating ideology?


I didn't deny that it was a form of Communism, just not a form that I'd endorse in whole or even in part.

Again, Socialism is a set of economic principles, not really an "ideology" per se.  There are too many reasons to list as to why I believe it's superior to capitalism, but the short version is that nobody should be starving to death in the richest nation on Earth, as they are now.  Hell, cannibalize one billionaire's wealth (take Bezos as an example), and you could feed the entire world population for decades, if not centuries.

If you want to know why all my motives aren't self-serving, that's easy: I simply wasn't raised that way.



MysticLord said:


> Do you know about the mass murder and genocide of Christians and kulaks in Ukraine, and how refugees fleeing that to Germany as well as attacks by the OG antifa on the center-right conservative party led to the rise of the Nazi party?


No need to use code, there was a fair-sized Socialist presence in Germany at the time.  They were one of the first groups Hitler had to execute in order to complete his rise to power.  You seem well-versed in WW2 history, so this is probably something you already knew and decided to leave out because it doesn't fit so well with the rest of your argument.  Tsk tsk.



MysticLord said:


> Repression always leads to fascism


Capitalism has led us to where we are now, facing down modern-day fascists.  Placing too much value on money and property has devalued human life in their eyes, to the point where police brutality is perfectly acceptable to the right-wing.  Repression of intolerance is precisely what is needed to combat the rise of Trump's fourth reich.



MysticLord said:


> You should worry less about Trump and more about the guy who comes after him; and how the policies you support (outsourcing, scab labor for corporations, radical centralization of federal power under neo-libs like Clinton and Obama - and to be fair, neocons like Bush I and II) created Trump and will create something far worse for you and America than him.


This is assuming Trump isn't allowed to burn down the Republican party and leave only smoldering ash in its wake.  Because if he's allowed to run again, that's exactly what's gonna happen.



MysticLord said:


> I seem to remember Hillary Clinton promising to send troops to Ukraine to fight Russian soldiers on Russia's border.


While I wouldn't approve of all-out war with Russia, this type of response was absolutely warranted.  Russia had just annexed Crimea and was attempting to invade Ukraine at the time, an ally of the US.  Trump gave Putin everything he could've wanted in this regard by just ignoring the problem.



MysticLord said:


> I also remember Democrats and Republicans first praising Trump when he bombed an empty tarmac in Syria, and then accusing him of being a Russian agent and impeaching him for not starting a war with Russia.


You remember wrong.  The criticism was for abandoning our Kurdish allies in the region and (once again) letting Putin come in and take control instead.  Trump's first impeachment had nothing to do with a potential war, and everything to do with pressuring Ukraine to start a baseless investigation into Hunter/Joe Biden.  I believe there were a million better reasons to impeach, but whatever.  The fact remains that Russia is our adversary, not our friend.  They just got done hacking most of the US government, including our nuclear stockpile, a story that was largely swept under the rug after the capitol riot.



MysticLord said:


> Really? Ghaddafi's son is getting close to cleaning up the rebels/freedom-fighters/whatever, just in time for the Biden administration.
> 
> As for it being limited, there are slave markets for castrated sub-Saharan African men in Libya today. There are also millions of Libyans and sub-Saharan Africans in Western Europe right now largely because Ghaddafi was assassinated, there was no one to protect Libya's southern border, and there's money to be made in smuggling people to Germany, France, and Britain.


So you're telling me Ghaddafi's son is slaughtering his own people and allowing a massive human trafficking operation to continue in the country, but I'm supposed to believe he's a good guy?  Seems like the country was going to end up in a bad place with or without the drones we sent to help the rebels.



MysticLord said:


> Besides, Biden wants to increase refugee intake as much as he can. Another Libyan war would be just the ticket, and soon afterwards we'd get to experience the joys of even greater diversity.


There are already a ton of Syrian and Kurdish refugees out there, Trump being responsible for many of them becoming refugees in the first place.  On top of which, climate change is set to make the Middle East practically uninhabitable in the next ten years or so.  There will be no shortage of refugees resulting from that.



MysticLord said:


> Interesting response, more for what it doesn't say than what it does.


Huh?  If you're really that interested, the reason I attended a Christian middle school was simply out of convenience for my parents.  It was like halfway between where they worked and where we lived in Washington state, and the public schools were all either further away or located in the opposite direction.



MysticLord said:


> If you want to remove the tax-exempt status of chuches then it's only fair to do it for all charities


Charities don't waste money on status symbols like megachurches and private jets.


----------



## Viri (Jan 14, 2021)

Don't care, still voting for Trump in 2024!


----------



## Xzi (Jan 14, 2021)

Viri said:


> Don't care, still voting for Trump in 2024!


Why stop there?  Write him in for the 2022 mid-term elections too.  The more wasted Republican votes, the better.


----------



## Shadow#1 (Jan 14, 2021)

Viri said:


> Don't care, still voting for Trump in 2024!


With the impeachment he can't run


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 14, 2021)

Xzi said:


> While I wouldn't approve of all-out war with Russia, this type of response was absolutely warranted.  Russia had just annexed Crimea and was attempting to invade Ukraine at the time, an ally of the US.


Maniacs like you are what is problematic about democracy. If only soldiers could vote for the president, the US army would not be as trigger-happy. The average voter is an idiot and should have no say in wars. Mark Dice (before he became a Trump fanboy) did a video in which he told random people that the US just had nuked China and what they think about it. Scary as f*ck.
US troops in Ukraine is the same as World War 3. There are some red lines you do not cross.
US troops in Ukraine is like Russian troops in Canada.



Xzi said:


> Trump's first impeachment had nothing to do with a potential war, and everything to do with pressuring Ukraine to start a baseless investigation into Hunter/Joe Biden.


Baseless investigation? Biden admitted to it! It is on video (he was even bragging about it).



Xzi said:


> The fact remains that Russia is our adversary, not our friend.


You are a victim of Hollywood and the military industrial complex.
Being at odds with Russia is not a natural law. The US is constantly provoking Russia. There are US planes and ships going up and done e.g. the Baltic sea and if the Russians respond, you call them aggressive. If Russia did the same, we would have already had World War 3.


----------



## smf (Jan 14, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> If Trump is an anti-Christ, why don't more lefties support him?



Jesus was a lefty. Right wing extreme Christianity like you get in the states, is something they invented. It's not real Christianity that you get from Jesus teachings.

He wouldn't have looked like their pictures either.



r5xscn said:


> Christianism was a cult at one point too.



It would depend on how you define a cult. It's mostly used as a pejorative term now.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 14, 2021)

smf said:


> Jesus was a lefty.


Actually, he was a national socialist: https://gbatemp.net/threads/jesus-was-a-national-socialist.563751/


----------



## smf (Jan 14, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Actually, he was a national socialist: https://gbatemp.net/threads/jesus-was-a-national-socialist.563751/



I've read your interpretation and I'm not convinced.

https://www.gotquestions.org/lost-sheep-Israel.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_7:6

And you are talking about an english translation of hebrew text that was written long after jesus died.

And by national socialist do you mean nazi? Because at that point your argument is really broken.


----------



## DoubleDate (Jan 14, 2021)

Jesus would've never agreed with all the violence that Trumps supporters are going after. Every side of humanity as its good side and bad side. Im certainly not a fan of Trump, but the media didnt do nothing than attacking for 4 years straight Trump. I think that Trump didnt want to be a puppet for the ones higher ups controlling the strings and they wanted to get rid of him as fast as possible. Trump is the only president in recent history that didnt go to another country to cause a war conflict, instead he withdrawed the soldiers overseas. But sadly he made a lot of wrong choices that divided America, now there are Trump and Anti Trump people. I dont think that Joe will do much of a difference either, lets hope that he unite America more and brings people more closer.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 14, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Maniacs like you are what is problematic about democracy. If only soldiers could vote for the president, the US army would not be as trigger-happy.


I'm a maniac because I believe we should keep our commitments to protecting our allies abroad?  Seems like it's really stretching the definition of the word, but okay.

You're also incorrect about what would result from only soldiers voting.  GWB still would've made it into office twice.  The military is not infallible, there are a ton of warmongers in the armed forces from the General rank all the way down.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> US troops in Ukraine is like Russian troops in Canada.


No...US troops in Ukraine would be like US troops in Canada.  They're both our allies.  Russian troops in Canada would signal that an invasion is happening, just as Russian troops in Ukraine did.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Baseless investigation? Biden admitted to it! It is on video (he was even bragging about it).


There's no point in going over all this again.  Suffice it to say the video you're referencing doesn't prove what you think it does, and Trump wouldn't have needed to put pressure on Ukrainian officials to start an investigation if there had already been a solid basis for one.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Being at odds with Russia is not a natural law. The US is constantly provoking Russia. There are US planes and ships going up and done e.g. the Baltic sea and if the Russians respond, you call them aggressive. If Russia did the same, we would have already had World War 3.


A US presence in that general region of the world is not the same as "provocation," what a joke.  Putin is ex-KGB.  He's forever bitter over the USSR failing and collapsing, so at least two of his long-term goals remain obvious.  One, invade and annex all the countries surrounding Russia in order to re-establish the USSR, no matter how long that process takes.  Two, use espionage, Manchurian candidates, hacking, whatever resources he can to meddle with US democracy in an attempt to cause its ultimate collapse/destruction.  He aims to show the world that only a dictatorship (such as his) can create long-term "stability."


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 14, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Again, I just don't have the same obsession over which religion will "rule the future" that you apparently do.  The Abrahamic religions all seem dead set on exterminating each other, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their long-term prospects.


I don't give a shit what Muslims and Jews do as long as it doesn't effect me, but us religious Abrahamics are all absolutely replacing you. We aren't worried about each other at all.



Xzi said:


> I didn't deny that it was a form of Communism, just not a form that I'd endorse in whole or even in part.
> 
> Again, Socialism is a set of economic principles, not really an "ideology" per se.  There are too many reasons to list as to why I believe it's superior to capitalism, but the short version is that nobody should be starving to death in the richest nation on Earth, as they are now.  Hell, cannibalize one billionaire's wealth (take Bezos as an example), and you could feed the entire world population for decades, if not centuries.


Motte and Bailey logical fallacy.



Xzi said:


> If you want to know why all my motives aren't self-serving, that's easy: I simply wasn't raised that way.


Social signaling.



Xzi said:


> No need to use code, there was a fair-sized Socialist presence in Germany at the time.  They were one of the first groups Hitler had to execute in order to complete his rise to power.  You seem well-versed in WW2 history, so this is probably something you already knew and decided to leave out because it doesn't fit so well with the rest of your argument.  Tsk tsk.


1. The Nazi (National *Socialist* Party of Germany) wasn't socialist?
2. IIRC it was the USSR* who executed the anarchists and democratic socialists in Spain, several years before Hitler came to power. George Orwell only evaded execution because he couldn't talk and identify himself and his loyalties due to a battle wound.
3. The SA - the street-fighting, socialist/left-leaning wing of the Nazi party, which incidentally had a large minority of gay men - were technically the first to be purged when he came to power. Again, IIRC. So while you're technically right, the shall we say "nature" of the socialists who were purged is inconvenient for your argument.

*I've talked to Tankies from various feeds my church did on the West Coast. They seem like they can see reason, though their ways aren't mine. If they ever need help with DSA and Antifa types, I will gladly sell them whatever they need.



Xzi said:


> Capitalism has led us to where we are now, facing down modern-day fascists.


I agree completely. The union of the state and corporations - which is the definition of fascism - has resulted in the censorship of the Republican party and Donald Trump. For this reason we must discorporate Amazon, Walmart, Facebook, Twitter, and Google, break up the banks, and do a full audit and investigation of the 2020 elections with local, state, federal, and international oversight. To refuse to do so only harms Biden's legitimacy!



Xzi said:


> Placing too much value on money and property has devalued human life in their eyes,...


I agree completely, which is why I don't advocate for materialist philosophies such as capitalism, communism, socialism, or fascism that reduce all of humanity to economic interactions.



Xzi said:


> to the point where police brutality is perfectly acceptable to the right-wing.


Speak for yourself, I loathe cops. Should I do a search of your username and Ashli Babbit?

Also if the left disapproves of cops, why is their first instinct when they get into an argument or fight always to call the cops? Why did you mourn George Floyd being abused by cops, but approve of it when it's some dumb Trump-voting Boomer white guy? Judging by your actions, your apparent goal was to make sure that everyone is treated like George Floyd, not to prevent anyone from being treated like that.

Could it be that you're a small-souled creature whose only joy in life is sharing your misery with others?



Xzi said:


> Repression of intolerance is precisely what is needed to combat the rise of Trump's fourth reich.


Trump, the fascist, is the man:
1. Whose grandkids are all ethnically or religiously Jewish?
2. Who partied with Mike Tyson and George Mayweather back in the day?
3. Whose stated beliefs are those of the Democrat party circa 1994?
4. Who cried in public when a corny parade of high school marching bands and firefighters walked by?

Look, we both know that you want a world where the people you believe are your enemies* must follow all the rules, while you can ignore them. When you make dumb arguments like this, you only help persuade the audience to my side and make yourself look bad. For your own sake at least make it hard for me to persuade normal people that you're not a liar and hypocrite!

*The real enemies are corporations and banks, but since they fund Pride parades and BLM "protests", you're not ready to have that conversation yet.

Apparently gay pride and BLM are the left wing equivalent of abortion and gay marriage on the right: pointless culture war issues designed and propagated by wealthy managerialists to dangle over the left's heads to prevent them from uniting the those on the populist right to crush our real enemies, before we all return to states rights and leave each other alone.



Xzi said:


> This is assuming Trump isn't allowed to burn down the Republican party and leave only smoldering ash in its wake.  Because if he's allowed to run again, that's exactly what's gonna happen.


I registered with the Green Party and I intend to vote for the craziest, stupidest lefty I can reasonably get in any office as punishment for the Republican elites and all Democrats. I want the entire country to have the same laws as San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle: legal street-defecation, legal shoplifting, legal camping on public sidewalks, legal hard drug use, and legal violent crime - all if you are non-white, poor, homeless, mentally ill, or addicted to something. Let the left live with the consequences of their beliefs for a while, nothing else will wake them up.

The Republican party is already dead. Everyone - literally everyone - I know that voted for Trump in 2020, which are all the Republicans I know, are never voting for a Republican ever again.

it's not like it matter anyways, Democrats will just keep finding votes until they win for all future elections. We won't have any non-subversive legal recourse, so why bother and paint a target on your back?

It won't affect me since I'm in a multi-racial marriage and the father of a multi-racial child, the house I intend to buy is 70 miles (through rough terrain) from the nearest major city, and the land I want to live in is too harsh to be homeless in and useless for anything except grazing livestock. I'll donate $20 to the DSA, BLM, Communist Party, Democratic Party, ADL, and SPLC once every election year to prove my street creds. I literally just ordered BLM, Trans, LGBTQ+, Communist, and Mexican flags to put up around my house if the cops come knocking. I'll order some "programming socks", change my gender to female on all my government IDs, and change my name to Mary Smith.

I'll put my wife on paper as the owner of our ranch and any businesses we start, so we can get preference in government contracts as a minority (black, woman) owned business. We will do the bare minimum needed to get paid, and nothing beyond that.

If leftists want to erect barriers to living if you're a straight white Christian man, then I'll just lie. The government lies, leftists lie. Anyone that doesn't lie is a sucker. No skin off my back.

I hope you enjoy living in the cities and enduring the decayed infrastructure now that you've awakened the only people that gave enough of a crap to contribute to society. We're not going to contribute to a society that hates us. Good luck building a society from the ground up by yourself, while surrounded by people who are happy to stab you in the back!



Xzi said:


> While I wouldn't approve of all-out war with Russia, this type of response was absolutely warranted.  Russia had just annexed Crimea and was attempting to invade Ukraine at the time, an ally of the US.  Trump gave Putin everything he could've wanted in this regard by just ignoring the problem.


Anyone who gives a shit what happens 10,000 miles away is a dork. Like, Ben Shapiro tier dork.



Xzi said:


> You remember wrong.  The criticism was for abandoning our Kurdish allies in the region and (once again) letting Putin come in and take control instead.  Trump's first impeachment had nothing to do with a potential war, and everything to do with pressuring Ukraine to start a baseless investigation into Hunter/Joe Biden.  I believe there were a million better reasons to impeach, but whatever.  The fact remains that Russia is our adversary, not our friend.  They just got done hacking most of the US government, including our nuclear stockpile, a story that was largely swept under the rug after the capitol riot.


Sounds like an argument for reducing our dependence on other nations and cutting ties with foreigners. Russia can't do much if we have 200% tariffs on everything, and we block all internet traffic, immigration, and "investment" from outside the USA.

Besides that, the NSA spent all their efforts on subversion and offense instead of defense. If their defense continues to be as awful as it was since at least the Obama years, we'll see the Intel Management Engine cracked (plus the AMD equivalents) and every computing device made since like 2009 will be paperweights.

If we don't want to be hacked, maybe we shouldn't let the morons in our government deliberately compromise our tech and security?

Oh yeah, I just remembered that Congress wants to ban many forms of the strongest encryption too lol. Enjoy seeing your bank account cleared out once every year! Thanks Congress!

Besides, the Syrian and Iraqi civil wars are over. Whatever criticism you have of Putin, he won those wars.


Xzi said:


> So you're telling me Ghaddafi's son is slaughtering his own people and allowing a massive human trafficking operation to continue in the country, but I'm supposed to believe he's a good guy?  Seems like the country was going to end up in a bad place with or without the drones we sent to help the rebels.


How is he allowing human smuggling and slavery to occur in his country if he's not in full control of it yet?

Why should I care what happens 10,000 miles away when we have more than enough problems here?

How do you tell who is the good guy when I can barely tell the difference between factions? 

How am I supposed to fix it when they've been killing each other since before the USA existed?

Why should I risk the lives of my people for people very far away, who hate us for good reason, and when it doesn't materially benefit us in any way?

Why should I tell brown people what to do when I'm a straight white Christian man and telling brown people how to run their own nations is the vilest of bigotries?

Libya was already in a bad place, drone striking indistinguishable brown people won't make it less of a bad place. Besides that, I have this aversion to killing people who are no threat to me as long as they stay over there.



Xzi said:


> There are already a ton of Syrian and Kurdish refugees out there, Trump being responsible for many of them becoming refugees in the first place.  On top of which, climate change is set to make the Middle East practically uninhabitable in the next ten years or so.  There will be no shortage of refugees resulting from that.


Why is Trump responsible for CIA color revolutions in the MENA that started in 2010, under Obama, with Biden as Vice President (and I believe Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State), and continued for at least 6 more years?



Xzi said:


> Huh?  If you're really that interested, the reason I attended a Christian middle school was simply out of convenience for my parents.  It was like halfway between where they worked and where we lived in Washington state, and the public schools were all either further away or located in the opposite direction.


How much did that Christian middle school cost per year?



Xzi said:


> Charities don't waste money on status symbols like megachurches and private jets.


Yes, instead they spend it on useless eaters (managers and administrators) whose only job is to shuffle paperwork to stay in compliance with the endless regulations from our beloved comrades in government! Hail the Democrat Party! May our Glorious Leader Biden lead us into the future of total reliance on unaccountable bureaucrats for survival, forever!

---



smf said:


> Jesus was a lefty.











smf said:


> Right wing extreme Christianity like you get in the states, is something they invented. It's not real Christianity that you get from Jesus teachings.


The Balkans, Mediterranean Europe, Iberia, and Eastern Europeans aren't Europe?

Technically the only people above replacement rate in Western Europe are Africans and MENA Muslims, so if you define a nation by the people who inhabit it then in two or three generations Britain, France, Germany, and Sweden won't be Europe either. If you're an example of the average Western European, I must say that I support that. I'd much rather deal with an African or Muslim than a Western European, they're much more practical and less naive.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 15, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> I don't give a shit what Muslims and Jews do as long as it doesn't effect me, but us religious Abrahamics are all absolutely replacing you. We aren't worried about each other at all.


Or Scientology wins out.  Or some fancy new alien religion.  With lasers.  Still DGAF.  There's no reason to struggle against the forward movement of time.



MysticLord said:


> Motte and Bailey logical fallacy.


Or I was just providing my opinion on the matter?  But I guess you wanted that conversation to come to an abrupt end for whatever reason.



MysticLord said:


> Social signaling.


So I guess your view that all motives should be self-serving is anti-virtue signaling?  Again, clearly another conversation you didn't want to continue with.



MysticLord said:


> 1. The Nazi (National *Socialist* Party of Germany) wasn't socialist?


Correct.  It's akin to North Korea calling themselves a "Democratic People's Republic."



MysticLord said:


> I agree completely. The union of the state and corporations - which is the definition of fascism - has resulted in the censorship of the Republican party and Donald Trump.


Then you don't agree completely.  Trump never would've had a platform to begin with if not for all the corporations supporting him.  TV media gave him far more free air time than any other candidate in 2016.



MysticLord said:


> I agree completely, which is why I don't advocate for materialist philosophies such as capitalism, communism, socialism, or fascism that reduce all of humanity to economic interactions.


Again, not in agreement.  Socialism is a means by which to place more value on the worker himself, rather than placing more value on the material things the worker produces.



MysticLord said:


> Speak for yourself, I loathe cops. Should I do a search of your username and Ashli Babbit?


Feel free, I haven't commented on the matter previously.  It's a bit of a mixed bag that one, obviously Babbit is no Breonna Taylor.  Should the cops have resorted to non-lethal force first?  Absolutely.  Should she have put herself in that situation, believing that her skin color and political affiliation would shield her from all consequences?  No.



MysticLord said:


> Also if the left disapproves of cops, why is their first instinct when they get into an argument or fight always to call the cops?


You're confusing Democrats for leftists.  Leftists own guns and other weapons.



MysticLord said:


> Trump, the fascist, is the man:
> 1. Whose grandkids are all ethnically or religiously Jewish?
> 2. Who partied with Mike Tyson and George Mayweather back in the day?
> 3. Whose stated beliefs are those of the Democrat party circa 1994?
> 4. Who cried in public when a corny parade of high school marching bands and firefighters walked by?


1. An alliance formed from a shared corruption and criminality.  Look into Kushner's dad.
2. "I can't be racist, I had a black friend once forty years ago."
3. He's a fucking liar who will say and do anything to gain more power.
4. Irrelevant.



MysticLord said:


> The Republican party is already dead.


God I wish you were right, but there's still a decent chance that McConnell manages to purge Trump from the party and keep it alive.



MysticLord said:


> I hope you enjoy living in the cities and enduring the decayed infrastructure now that you've awakened the only people that gave enough of a crap to contribute to society. We're not going to contribute to a society that hates us. Good luck building a society from the ground up by yourself, while surrounded by people who are happy to stab you in the back!


It'll be tough, but I'm sure I'll find some way to carry on without the "contributions" of methed-out neo-nazis and PBR-drinking trailer park burnouts.  The country will continue to offer them opportunities as far as education, healthcare, and employment are concerned, but it won't surprise me in the least when they ultimately turn down all those opportunities.



MysticLord said:


> Anyone who gives a shit what happens 10,000 miles away is a dork. Like, Ben Shapiro tier dork.


Did I miss the part where we traveled back in time to the early 1900s?  The world is all connected now bud.  What happens 10,000 miles away can and often will come back to bite us in the ass here at home.  I'll take being called a dork though, best I've ever done before is geek.  Don't compare me with Shapiro though, fuck that guy.



MysticLord said:


> Sounds like an argument for reducing our dependence on other nations and cutting ties with foreigners.


It's on a case-by-case basis.  Certainly we shouldn't be supporting countries whose only interest is manipulating us into war.  I also don't think we need a continued military presence in every country that we've gone to war with previously.  At the same time, total isolationism isn't the answer, nor is it really an option in the modern day.  That would only cede more power to both China and Russia on the world stage.



MysticLord said:


> If we don't want to be hacked, maybe we shouldn't let the morons in our government deliberately compromise our tech and security?


Agreed, we need more young people who actually understand tech and cybersecurity in positions of leadership.



MysticLord said:


> Libya was already in a bad place, drone striking indistinguishable brown people won't make it less of a bad place. Besides that, I have this aversion to killing people who are no threat to me as long as they stay over there.


Right or wrong, the thought process was that Ghaddafi was sympathetic to ISIS and/or Al'Queda, and so Libya was heading toward becoming a stronghold for our enemies in the region, and thus a threat to our troops.  Obviously I would've preferred if GWB had never been elected, 9/11 had been prevented, and we had never been in the region to begin with.



MysticLord said:


> Why is Trump responsible for CIA color revolutions in the MENA that started in 2010, under Obama, with Biden as Vice President (and I believe Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State), and continued for at least 6 more years?


I didn't say he was responsible for any of that, only that he was responsible for abandoning our Kurdish allies, an alliance that dates back all the way to the 1980s and spans multiple presidencies.



MysticLord said:


> How much did that Christian middle school cost per year?


I don't know, I'd have to ask my parents.  It certainly wasn't some lavish operation with a massive campus and marble pillars inside the building, if that's what you're thinking.  The entire thing had maybe four classrooms and a gymnasium, was built probably in the 60s or 70s.



MysticLord said:


> Yes, instead they spend it on useless eaters (managers and administrators) whose only job is to shuffle paperwork to stay in compliance with the endless regulations from our beloved comrades in government!


Still more productive than televangelists and megachurch pastors.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

smf said:


> I've read your interpretation and I'm not convinced.
> 
> https://www.gotquestions.org/lost-sheep-Israel.html
> 
> ...



I don´t care if you are not convinced. You have not disputed any of my points. Instead of giving me links (which I read and they also dispute nothing I said) you could be man enough to actually engage in criticism.
Jesus was a national socialist because he was helping the poor of HIS PEOPLE, told his people to help one another (The samartians are his people), ignored foreigners (yes, he helped them, but only after they had helped his people  or humbled themselves completely) and confirmed that his people are special, i.e. God-chosen (as it also says in your link).

The New Testament was not written in Hebrew. You know nothing about the Bible. And by that logic we can dismiss is it altogether and make virtually no claims about Jesus (as all the best sources about him from the Bible).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Xzi said:


> I'm a maniac because I believe we should keep our commitments to protecting our allies abroad?  Seems like it's really stretching the definition of the word, but okay.


You have no commitment to Ukraine. Everyone knows that Ukraine in NATO is a ridiculous idea like Canada or Mexiko in an anti-US military coalition. USA would never allow this to happen.



Xzi said:


> You're also incorrect about what would result from only soldiers voting.  GWB still would've made it into office twice.  The military is not infallible, there are a ton of warmongers in the armed forces from the General rank all the way down.


It wouldn´t be perfect but better than the status quo. Take a rifle and go to Donbass, as there is still fighting going on, you hero. It is easy to send others to die, coward.



Xzi said:


> No...US troops in Ukraine would be like US troops in Canada.  They're both our allies.  Russian troops in Canada would signal that an invasion is happening, just as Russian troops in Ukraine did.


That was not my point. I know a war-monger has difficulty to see things from other countries´ perspective, but give it a try: The US economy collapses. There are tensions with Canada. Russia offers Canada military help and they accept. Russian troops are building up at the American border. What would happen, genius?




Xzi said:


> There's no point in going over all this again.  Suffice it to say the video you're referencing doesn't prove what you think it does, and Trump wouldn't have needed to put pressure on Ukrainian officials to start an investigation if there had already been a solid basis for one.


I am not defending Trump. I corrected your claim that it was "baseless" when we have a video of Biden admitting to firing the Ukrainian criminal investigator by blackmailing Ukraine.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You have no commitment to Ukraine.


Certainly not now that Trump has allowed the country to fall under Russian control, but this discussion is more of a "what if" scenario.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It wouldn´t be perfect but better than the status quo. Take a rifle and go to Donbass, as there is still fighting going on, you hero. It is easy to send others to die, coward.


It would pretty much be exactly the status quo.  McCain might've been elected instead of Obama, that's about it.  Trump still would've been elected in 2016, and Biden still would've been elected in 2020.  For the most part, troops are just a microcosm of public opinion in general, maybe slightly more right-wing.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> That was not my point. I know a war-monger has difficulty to see things from other countries´ perspective, but give it a try: The US economy collapses. There are tensions with Canada. Russia offers Canada military help and they accept. Russian troops are building up at the American border. What would happen, genius?


Yeah, ridiculous hypotheticals where everybody changes teams still aren't helping me understand the point you're trying to make.  Russia invaded Ukraine.  They're the warmongers in this scenario.  In my opinion, we should've aided them in retaining their independence from Russia, and then we should've left.  I wasn't suggesting we annex the country or start making aggressive moves against Russia, only that we defend Ukraine's borders as they were.

If Germany were to invade Poland again today, would you have the US do nothing?  And if we aren't willing to send aid to our allies when they need it most, why would any country remain allies with us?



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I am not defending Trump. I corrected your claim that it was "baseless" when we have a video of Biden admitting to firing the Ukrainian criminal investigator by blackmailing Ukraine.


Conveniently this leaves out the fact that both Republicans and Democrats agreed the guy was corrupt and needed to go.  In other words, an innocuous statement that was stripped of all context to make it seem malicious.  There are plenty of valid criticisms to levy at Biden, so you don't need to keep pushing misinformation.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Yeah, ridiculous hypotheticals where everybody changes teams still aren't helping me understand the point you're trying to make.  Russia invaded Ukraine.  They're the warmongers in this scenario.  In my opinion, we should've aided them in retaining their independence from Russia, and then we should've left.  I wasn't suggesting we annex the country or start making aggressive moves against Russia, only that we defend Ukraine's borders as they were.


It is not ridiculous. Teams change all the time, that´s what America has been doing for at least 70 years e.g. in the Americas (currently Venezuela). Once demographics and economics change, former Mexican territories of the US could try to gain independence from the US. Then Russia becomes a viable partner. However, Russia is not as aggressive as the US. The Cuban Missle Crisis was only a reaction to US action. The Americans did not tolerate rockets being pointed at them (WE WERE AT THE BRINK OF WW3!) but see no problem if they do it to Russia. Leave Russia the f*ck alone - for the sake of all of us.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Leave Russia the f*ck alone - for the sake of all of us.


So long as Russia leaves all the other countries in the region alone, I have no issue with that.  I'm against imperialism no matter who's engaging in it, including the US or CIA.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

Xzi said:


> So long as Russia leaves all the other countries in the region alone, I have no issue with that.  I'm against imperialism no matter who's engaging in it, including the US or CIA.


No, you are a warmonger and US imperialist. You have no interest in history, just like Neocons.
I assume you would also be for defending Taiwan (?) How many troops would you sacrafice? Would you throw nuclear bombs at Chinese cities?

I am also curious on your stance on the invasion of US troops into Syria - since you claim to be against imperialism.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> No, you are a warmonger and US imperialist. You have no interest in history, just like Neocons.


Says the guy selectively supporting Russian imperialism.  I'm not sure what it is about this particular annexation that triggers you so, but you aren't being logical here.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I assume you would also be for defending Taiwan (?) How many troops would you sacrafice? Would you throw nuclear bombs at Chinese cities?


That's a very different matter, as China is and has been a US ally.  They also didn't invade/annex Taiwan so much as they simply claimed ownership over it.  It's definitely still not a good look, and I would've preferred if Taiwan could've remained independent, but the most we could do from overseas is put economic pressure on China to take a different route.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I am also curious on your stance on the invasion of US troops into Syria - since you claim to be against imperialism.


That was not an invasion force, we were there to protect our longtime Kurdish allies in the region.  We no longer have a presence there thanks to Trump, and so Putin has taken near-complete control of the country just as he did with Ukraine.  The Kurds all ended up refugees or oppressed pawns of a dictatorship.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Says the guy selectively supporting Russian imperialism.


I do not. I don´t regard problems between Ukraine and Russia as forms of Imperialism. I am against the invasion of Afghanistan (by Russians or Americans). If Afghans prefer to live the way they do, I let them. An imperialist like you can´t leave peoples alone. You have no tolerant bone in you.
With regards to Ukraine: Family matters. Ukrainians are Russians just as Austrians are Germans or Taiwanese are Chinese.

An analogy: A child eats chocolate against the will of the mother. The mother hits the child.
I, as a non-interventionist, do nothing or perhaps make a statement.
You as the imperialist are willing to hit the mother. If she has a knife, you will take out yours and kill her or get killed. Bravo.



Xzi said:


> That's a very different matter, as China is and has been a US ally.


Was during WW2. It has been an enemy for about 70 years. Don´t know where you get the idea from.



Xzi said:


> That was not an invasion force, we were there to protect our longtime Kurdish allies in the region.


The US broke international law. They were not invited by the Syrian government. The Kurds do not have a country. I would be ok with them having one but that´s like saying I want African-Americans or Native Americans to have their own country, let us bomb Washington.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I do not. I don´t regard problems between Ukraine and Russia as forms of Imperialism.


Because you aren't recognizing Ukraine as a separate, independent nation, as it has been ever since the fall of the USSR.  A Russian invasion and annexation of Ukraine is imperialism.  Period.  Choosing to bury your head in the sand won't change that, it can only make you a hypocrite.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I am against the invasion of Afghanistan (by Russians or Americans).


As am I, I didn't vote for GWB in either election, and I protested going to war in the Middle East both times.  Afghanistan and Iraq are both clear-cut examples of imperialism, as we never had any intention of leaving.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Was during WW2. It has been an enemy for about 70 years. Don´t know where you get the idea from.


IIRC it was Nixon who normalized relations with China, so they've been an ally longer than I've alive.  I know that wasn't always the case, though.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The US broke international law. They were not invited by the Syrian government. The Kurds do not have a country.


The Syrian government was in the process of bombing/gassing their own people, thus causing casualties among the Kurds as well.  The US had made commitments and promises to help them re-establish a homeland in the region decades ago.  So Trump's decision to pull our troops out (and send them to Saudi Arabia to protect oil refineries instead) did massive damage to our military's reputation and their trustworthiness abroad.  A good way to create more terrorists and more unrest in the region.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 15, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Or Scientology wins out.  Or some fancy new alien religion.  With lasers.  Still DGAF.


So you claim, but in any case I'm just telling you that you have no future without kids because it belongs to whoever shows up. If you don't have kids, that's not you. Transhumanism is a lie designed to keep you compliant, and feeding a system that sees you as a resource, not a person.



Xzi said:


> There's no reason to struggle against the forward movement of time.


Leftism can only exist in a very narrow set of circumstances: high trust society, abundant resources, homogeneous community. We're no longer a high-trust society, we're running out of resources, and clearly we're no longer a homogeneous community.

Look at bastions of the Left in the USA and you'll see that they're either ruled by Klepocrats (California, New York), or they're the whitest of white-breads (Oregon, Seattle, New England). Everywhere with diversity, leftism fails.

And before you start posting stats about dumb toothless rednecks in Arkansas, look up the racial breakdown of Arkansas. You wouldn't want to inadvertently do a racism, would you?

I'm not disagreeing with what you do and want. What you claim to want has unforeseen consequences which benefit me and harm you, therefore I can and should go along with it. I sincerely hope that Oregon, Washington, and New England get a revivifying infusion of diversity, for the reasons outlined above.



Xzi said:


> Or I was just providing my opinion on the matter?  But I guess you wanted that conversation to come to an abrupt end for whatever reason.


Not really, just pointing it out for the audience so they can recognize insincerity in the future.



Xzi said:


> So I guess your view that all motives should be self-serving is anti-virtue signaling?  Again, clearly another conversation you didn't want to continue with.


No, I'm pointing out that your claim of virtue is a lie, and you're as self-serving as the rest of us. You just couch it in progressive language so you can hide from the consequences of being a hypocrite.



Xzi said:


> Correct.  It's akin to North Korea calling themselves a "Democratic People's Republic."


Well the SA certainly thought they were fighting for some degree of socialism.



Xzi said:


> Then you don't agree completely.  Trump never would've had a platform to begin with if not for all the corporations supporting him.  TV media gave him far more free air time than any other candidate in 2016.


He only had a platform because:
1. The media thought they could use him to bludgeon the rest of the Republican candidates into submission.
2. They didn't think he would win.
3. He trolled them into covering them by exploiting the narcissism of the average journalist. If journalists weren't addicted to headpats, they would go into fields that actually pay a decent wage and don't require crippling student loan debt.
4. They made a ton of money in ad revenue because Trump got people to click on their shit.

Exploiting the weaknesses of our "genius" political operatives and media propagandists to get your views out there isn't technically support. They supported him due only to their own incompetence and greed, not because they supported his ideas.



Xzi said:


> Again, not in agreement.  Socialism is a means by which to place more value on the worker himself, rather than placing more value on the material things the worker produces.


1. There's much more to life than work.
2. The left changes the definition of worker to benefit themselves. According to the hottest takes I've seen from the Brooklyn podcast crowd (who do a wonderful job of scamming their constituents out of their parent's money - kudos to the hustlers), cashiers aren't working class, but people with an Only Fans are. So risking your life to do thankless work in a pandemic doesn't mean you deserve anything from our trust-fund hipster socialists in NYC, but showing rich losers on the internet your butthole does.



Xzi said:


> Feel free, I haven't commented on the matter previously.  It's a bit of a mixed bag that one, obviously Babbit is no Breonna Taylor.  Should the cops have resorted to non-lethal force first?  Absolutely.  Should she have put herself in that situation, believing that her skin color and political affiliation would shield her from all consequences?  No.


I just read something that the guy who goaded her into trying to climb through the window is affiliated with Antifa somehow - he got arrested by the FBI and was filming with a CNN journalist - though I'm not sure if that's because he's actually antifa, he's an infiltrator, or he's your standard glowie. The narrative around it stinks, and I'm slowly coming to realize that this may be one reason why they're rushing through another impeachment.

Not that it matters. Impeachment, which prevents Trump from running for office and ensures that there are no political solutions for the Right, only helps me. I feel like Brier Rabbit, desperately begging Farmer John not to throw me into that briar patch while trying to keep a straight face.



Xzi said:


> You're confusing Democrats for leftists.  Leftists own guns and other weapons.


Yet leftists keep voting for Democrats in general elections after consistently getting scammed by Bernie.



Xzi said:


> 1. An alliance formed from a shared corruption and criminality.  Look into Kushner's dad.
> 2. "I can't be racist, I had a black friend once forty years ago."
> 3. He's a fucking liar who will say and do anything to gain more power.
> 4. Irrelevant.


I don't know why I'm even arguing with you about this, slandering/libeling 80 million people as Nazis because they voted for the reality TV show host and Twitter troll only helps me. Carry on! 



Xzi said:


> God I wish you were right, but there's still a decent chance that McConnell manages to purge Trump from the party and keep it alive.


Surely this could never go wrong. I'll nerd out a bit and hint at what I think will occur with a quote from Dune, just after Paul dispatches the Harkonnen boy and claims his victory over the Empire: "You will think back to the gentle ways of the Sardaukar!"



Xzi said:


> It'll be tough, but I'm sure I'll find some way to carry on without the "contributions" of methed-out neo-nazis and PBR-drinking trailer park burnouts.


How is Flint doing after they hired exclusively African-American contractors who were related to the people disbursing the funds to fix their water intake pipes with the money they've been given over and over again in the past 20 years?



Xzi said:


> The country will continue to offer them opportunities as far as education, healthcare, and employment are concerned, but it won't surprise me in the least when they ultimately turn down all those opportunities.


This is a lie, according to several state and federal government regulations, it's de jure illegal to give preference to race in employment, healthcare, and education. De facto - and in some states de jure - it's legal to discriminate in favor of people who are not white, for a given definition of "white" that is constantly changing. Recently the term "BIPOC" has gained traction, which expels East Asians for sure from the progressive in-group, and ensures that they will be the next tax cows to be milked. Whether or not they will fall for it, coming from societies that were run by corrupt bureaucracies for centuries, is another matter.

My dad was a bureaucrat, he knows California state regulations inside and out and worked as a fixer for businesses after he got his pension. He taught me how to research systems of people.



Xzi said:


> Did I miss the part where we traveled back in time to the early 1900s?  The world is all connected now bud.  What happens 10,000 miles away can and often will come back to bite us in the ass here at home.


Japan closed their borders within the last month to block the new UK variant of the coronavirus. Trump's tariffs almost destroyed China's economy. Seems like it would be pretty easy for the USA to opt-out of globalism, given that we're protected against Asia and Europe by two enormous oceans and we have all the resources and people to make everything we need... which we did for most of our history.



Xzi said:


> I'll take being called a dork though, best I've ever done before is geek.  Don't compare me with Shapiro though, fuck that guy.


Nerds > Geeks > Dorks

A dork is a geek who thinks he's a nerd.

If you can't build a web shop or you don't know C, then you're not a nerd, sorry. At least, you're not one specific type of nerd. You can be a geek though, appreciation of the things nerds do is fine.



Xzi said:


> It's on a case-by-case basis.  Certainly we shouldn't be supporting countries whose only interest is manipulating us into war.  I also don't think we need a continued military presence in every country that we've gone to war with previously.  At the same time, total isolationism isn't the answer, nor is it really an option in the modern day.  That would only cede more power to both China and Russia on the world stage.


I for one support Chinese and Russian troops - rather than Americans - getting blown up by IEDs in the MENA for a change. Let them have a go at the global empire thing and see how they like it.

With 3D printing and drone tech, we won't be able to project force with carriers or military bases if we aren't wanted there. We should get out now before the first mass closed casket military funeral courtesy of Hezbollah.

In any case, the USA is a maritime empire, not a land empire like Germany, Russia, or China. We need to be, given our geographical isolation from the Old World. As a maritime empire, our most powerful asset is trade, and we can best control other nations with our economic might. Trump did this very well with tariffs, especially on China. Biden doesn't have the wherewithal to do the same, for myriad reasons, and Kamala is more interested in policing recalcitrant rubes than ensuring the continued functioning of our American empire.



Xzi said:


> Agreed, we need more young people who actually understand tech and cybersecurity in positions of leadership.


Unfortunately our empire is in the stage of decay where it's run by sclerotic, unaccountable, and elderly bureaucrats, much like the USSR in the 1980s. 



Xzi said:


> Right or wrong, the thought process was that Ghaddafi was sympathetic to ISIS and/or Al'Queda, and so Libya was heading toward becoming a stronghold for our enemies in the region, and thus a threat to our troops.  Obviously I would've preferred if GWB had never been elected, 9/11 had been prevented, and we had never been in the region to begin with.


No he wasn't, the guys who overthrew him were Al-Queda. I tracked that stuff religiously when it happened, and scoured Google maps to tag locations in the videos they put out.

It's pretty odd that a self-avowed lefty is repeating neocon propaganda.



Xzi said:


> I didn't say he was responsible for any of that, only that he was responsible for abandoning our Kurdish allies, an alliance that dates back all the way to the 1980s and spans multiple presidencies.


I seem to remember our Kurdish allies turning tail and running when ISIS arrived on the scene in the early 2010s. They abandoned a bunch of Yazidis to be enslaved and genocided by ISIS multiple times.

The whole thing was a shitshow, we should have never invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. Everyone in all nations involved would be better off if we'd air-dropped all our special forces troops into Afghanistan and picked up Osama (assuming he actually did it), then skedaddled.



Xzi said:


> I don't know, I'd have to ask my parents.  It certainly wasn't some lavish operation with a massive campus and marble pillars inside the building, if that's what you're thinking.  The entire thing had maybe four classrooms and a gymnasium, was built probably in the 60s or 70s.


Ask them, I'm curious.

Size doesn't necessarily mean cheapness; exclusivity is a thing. Harvard's campus is smaller than that of OSU, IIRC. Small class size seems to aid learning as well.



Xzi said:


> Still more productive than televangelists and megachurch pastors.


Tell that to the people with worthless degrees and student loan debt they will never pay off. Same for people with medical bills that excessive regulation caused by insane federal medicare compliance rules, which are inserted in bills to benefit medical suppliers and lawyers. At least the sheep being fleeced by the televangalists get to feel like they belong to something, as paltry as that is.

There's something going on with megachurches, something to do with massively scaled-up societies and the breakdown of community and family. The Wal-Mart-ification of religion - with the degeneration of the religious experience to the lowest common denominator in accordance with basic marketing 101 practices - isn't so much a cause of malaise and anti-religious feeling in America as it is a symptom, and it's a symptom of something more fundamental.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Because you aren't recognizing Ukraine as a separate, independent nation, as it has been ever since the fall of the USSR.  A Russian invasion and annexation of Ukraine is imperialism.  Period.  Choosing to bury your head in the sand won't change that, it can only make you a hypocrite.


Ukraine is an independent country but not an independent nation.
During the crisis trade never stopped. Isn´t it weird to trade with a country you are invaded by?
Still today Ukraine is against Nord Stream 2 because they want Russian gas.
You cannot tell me a date Russia invaded Ukraine because it never happened (unlike Turkey invading Syria).
What Russia did in Ukraine is similar to what Turkey did before invading Syria: Letting volunteers go to Syria.



Xzi said:


> IIRC it was Nixon who normalized relations with China, so they've been an ally longer than I've alive.  I know that wasn't always the case, though.


China was never an ally of the US since the Korean war. Ties were established at the end of the 70s, hoping they would become like you (typical mindset of imperalists) but they never have, so they are enemies again (this is the mainstream view of both parties and the US media)



Xzi said:


> The Syrian government was in the process of bombing/gassing their own people, thus causing casualties among the Kurds as well.


And the Ukrainian government was bombing their own people in the east of the country. By that logic Russia could have invaded Ukraine. But even then there would be more justification (because of blood ties - which the US does not have with the Kurds).


----------



## Jayro (Jan 15, 2021)

First thing's first: I'm not religious. However...

Trump and his supporters hate socialism. But they love Jesus... And Jesus was a socialist. Figure that one out.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> Trump's tariffs almost destroyed China's economy. Seems like it would be pretty easy for the USA to opt-out of globalism, given that we're protected against Asia and Europe by two enormous oceans and we have all the resources and people to make everything we need... which we did for most of our history.


The 2nd part is correct. However, Trump did not almost destroy China´s economy. The trade war actually increased the trade imbalance, not decreased it. It would have only worked if China hadn´t increased tariffs as well.



MysticLord said:


> Recently the term "BIPOC" has gained traction, which expels East Asians for sure from the progressive in-group


This is absolutely fascinating. East Asians in America are caught between playing the victim card (which does not work that well) and siding with Whites with regards to affirmative action etc.
Especially the Koreans are interesting: When BLM happened many older Koreans remember the Rodney King riots and how they were left alone to defend their businesses (so they are not pro BLM). But many younger Koreans went protesting for BLM because they instinctively understand which views are beneficial for status and which aren´t.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> During the crisis trade never stopped. Isn´t it weird to trade with a country you are invaded by?


Err...no?  At some point you don't have a choice any longer, once the occupation of your country has advanced far enough.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You cannot tell me a date Russia invaded Ukraine because it never happened (unlike Turkey invading Syria).


Wrong.  February 22nd, 2014 is when Russian soldiers without insignias started moving into the Ukrainian territory of Crimea, signalling the beginning of the conflict.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Ties were established at the end of the 70s, hoping they would become like you (typical mindset of imperalists) but they never have


Lol, you sure about that?  Xi Jinping and his posse of oligarchs seem to like suckling at the tit of capitalism an awful lot.  Not to mention that China has the second worst income inequality in the world, behind only the US.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> so they are enemies again (this is the mainstream view of both parties and the US media)


The viewpoints of individuals are ultimately irrelevant, China is still one of the largest producers of goods (electronics in particular) for the US, if not THE largest.  At worst, we're uneasy allies, but still allies nonetheless.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> And the Ukrainian government was bombing their own people in the east of the country.


Russian soldiers attempting to remain anonymous are not "Ukraine's own people," sorry.


----------



## mammastuffing (Jan 15, 2021)

One thing they won't have in common is that the followers of Trump will be able to provide an huge amount of independent sources that he actually existed and for the things he did.


----------



## smf (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I don´t care if you are not convinced. You have not disputed any of my points. Instead of giving me links (which I read and they also dispute nothing I said) you could be man enough to actually engage in criticism.



I don't care that you don't care, the points cast doubt on your interpretations & were there for other unsuspecting readers who may have thought you had made meaningful arguments.

Your reaction proves to me that I was correct in avoiding engaging directly with you.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> During the crisis trade never stopped. Isn´t it weird to trade with a country you are invaded by?



No, why? People want things and people want to make money, whether you are being invaded or not.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 15, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> So you claim, but in any case I'm just telling you that you have no future without kids because it belongs to whoever shows up.


Incredibly egotistical to think of kids as nothing more than extension of yourself.  I might have some, I might not.  If I do, they'll be free to choose a religion for themselves, I'm not going to force that part of my own belief system down their throats.



MysticLord said:


> I'm not disagreeing with what you do and want. What you claim to want has unforeseen consequences which benefit me and harm you, therefore I can and should go along with it. I sincerely hope that Oregon, Washington, and New England get a revivifying infusion of diversity, for the reasons outlined above.


So reverse-gentrification in a sense?  I'm down for it.



MysticLord said:


> No, I'm pointing out that your claim of virtue is a lie, and you're as self-serving as the rest of us. You just couch it in progressive language so you can hide from the consequences of being a hypocrite.


In a roundabout way I guess you're right, it is self-serving of me to want to lift the entire nation out of needless poverty and starvation.  It would be a lot easier for me to sleep at night and enjoy the things I do have, knowing that there is a baseline standard of living established for my fellow citizens.  I wouldn't have to worry about crime borne of desperation, in my neighborhood or any other.  The list goes on.



MysticLord said:


> Exploiting the weaknesses of our "genius" political operatives and media propagandists to get your views out there isn't technically support. They supported him due only to their own incompetence and greed, not because they supported his ideas.


Could've fooled me, CNN and MSNBC covered a bunch of his rallies without any commentary whatsoever.  Wal-Mart and any number other corporations would've thrown their weight behind the Republican candidate regardless of who won the primary.  Not to mention there's no way Trump would've won without the support of 80% of the nation's police, who you claim to hate.



MysticLord said:


> 1. There's much more to life than work.


Precisely why we need expanded workers' rights, to get us more paid vacation time as a standard, among other benefits.  The US is a joke compared to the rest of the world in this regard.



MysticLord said:


> 2. The left changes the definition of worker to benefit themselves. According to the hottest takes I've seen from the Brooklyn podcast crowd (who do a wonderful job of scamming their constituents out of their parent's money - kudos to the hustlers), cashiers aren't working class, but people with an Only Fans are. So risking your life to do thankless work in a pandemic doesn't mean you deserve anything from our trust-fund hipster socialists in NYC, but showing rich losers on the internet your butthole does.


So a couple of guys with a podcast represent the entirety of the left now?  "The left" is not monolithic on any issue, pick a topic and I guarantee you I can find hundreds of pages of leftist infighting on it.  Needless to say, I don't agree that cashiers aren't a part of the working class.



MysticLord said:


> I just read something that the guy who goaded her into trying to climb through the window is affiliated with Antifa somehow


Ah yes, there's that "personal responsibility" Republicans are so famous for.  



MysticLord said:


> Not that it matters. Impeachment, which prevents Trump from running for office and ensures that there are no political solutions for the Right, only helps me.


Awfully cryptic there.  Hoping for more violence, are we?



MysticLord said:


> Yet leftists keep voting for Democrats in general elections after consistently getting scammed by Bernie.


Some of us, sure.  Others gave up on electoralism entirely a long time ago.  And others still only thrive in anarchy.



MysticLord said:


> I don't know why I'm even arguing with you about this, slandering/libeling 80 million people as Nazis because they voted for the reality TV show host and Twitter troll only helps me. Carry on!


I think you're vastly overestimating the impact of what I have to say, as well as vastly overestimating the impact GBAtemp has on US politics. 

In any case, fuck 'em.  Aside from the people who have a confederate flag or a swastika hanging up in their house, anybody who watched four years of Trump's bombastic brand of hatred and divisiveness and decided, "yeah, I want more of that" is still irredeemable scum.



MysticLord said:


> This is a lie, according to several state and federal government regulations, it's de jure illegal to give preference to race in employment, healthcare, and education. De facto - and in some states de jure - it's legal to discriminate in favor of people who are not white, for a given definition of "white" that is constantly changing. Recently the term "BIPOC" has gained traction, which expels East Asians for sure from the progressive in-group, and ensures that they will be the next tax cows to be milked. Whether or not they will fall for it, coming from societies that were run by corrupt bureaucracies for centuries, is another matter.


Huh?  I didn't say anything about giving preference to any race.  I was referring to the same opportunities given to everybody.



MysticLord said:


> Trump's tariffs almost destroyed China's economy.


Oof, that must be some strong stuff you're smoking.  The US consumer pays for tariffs, it only affects China if we slow or stop consumption of Chinese goods.  AFAIK, Wal-Mart's profits didn't take a hit over the last four years, if anything they went up.  So you should be able to put two and two together there.



MysticLord said:


> Nerds > Geeks > Dorks
> 
> A dork is a geek who thinks he's a nerd.
> 
> If you can't build a web shop or you don't know C, then you're not a nerd, sorry. At least, you're not one specific type of nerd. You can be a geek though, appreciation of the things nerds do is fine.


Gotcha, never had it explained to me that way before.  Guess I'm a geek slowly working my way up to nerd.



MysticLord said:


> Unfortunately our empire is in the stage of decay where it's run by sclerotic, unaccountable, and elderly bureaucrats, much like the USSR in the 1980s.


It's hard to tell if it's decay or just status quo stupidity, as the elderly have maintained control over most leadership positions in this country for decades, if not centuries.



MysticLord said:


> The whole thing was a shitshow, we should have never invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. Everyone in all nations involved would be better off if we'd air-dropped all our special forces troops into Afghanistan and picked up Osama (assuming he actually did it), then skedaddled.


On that we completely agree.  I'm just not sure why you can't see Trump as the exact same breed of neocon that GWB was.  After all, he assassinated a foreign military official without any provocation, it doesn't take much imagination to predict what would've happened if we had experienced a 9/11-style attack during his term.



MysticLord said:


> Tell that to the people with worthless degrees and student loan debt they will never pay off. Same for people with medical bills that excessive regulation caused by insane federal medicare compliance rules, which are inserted in bills to benefit medical suppliers and lawyers.


As center-right as he is, even Biden is reportedly considering eliminating the student debt bubble.  And sure, I'd agree that medical bills are out of control in this country too, something needs to be done about our healthcare system in general.  Obamacare was a tiny bandaid placed on a freshly-amputated limb, it doesn't go nearly far enough.



MysticLord said:


> There's something going on with megachurches, something to do with massively scaled-up societies and the breakdown of community and family. The Wal-Mart-ification of religion - with the degeneration of the religious experience to the lowest common denominator in accordance with basic marketing 101 practices - isn't so much a cause of malaise and anti-religious feeling in America as it is a symptom, and it's a symptom of something more fundamental.


It's nothing new unfortunately, it's just much easier to do on a much wider scale now, so more people are getting in on the grift.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

smf said:


> the points cast doubt on your interpretations


There were no points made though. The link didn´t dispute that Jesus´s mission targeted his people, not foreigners. Even Trump did not say "only America" but "America first".


----------



## Jayro (Jan 15, 2021)

So I guess the next thing for Donny boi is a public crucifixion for his MAGA cult members to make a religion out of.
Neat.


----------



## smf (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The link didn´t dispute that Jesus´s mission targeted his people, not foreigners.



Didn't Jesus save all who believed in him? If he only saved people from his own country then it would seem to limit the extent of the religion.

I am not convinced that you even believe your own argument.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jan 15, 2021)

smf said:


> Didn't Jesus save all who believed in him? If he only saved people from his own country then it would seem to limit the extent of the religion.
> 
> I am not convinced that you even believe your own argument.


Doesn´t Santa Claus bring presents to all countries?
Listen, I know it is hard to swallow but there is a feel-good Jesus in your imagination and an actual Jesus aka historical Jesus.
If I were to write a book about Elvis Presley, I might include accurate information, but everything post mortem would be irrelevant to you, wouldn´t it?

You can read stories about Muhammad and believe some of the things without thinking he split the moon once.

Raza Aslan thinks Jesus was a Zaelot and I happen to think he was a national socialist. Prove me wrong with things Jesus said prior to his death. Keep the rest for Sunday school.


----------



## smf (Jan 15, 2021)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Doesn´t Santa Claus bring presents to all countries?



It sounds like you were on the naughty list.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Raza Aslan thinks Jesus was a Zaelot and I happen to think he was a national socialist. Prove me wrong with things Jesus said prior to his death. Keep the rest for Sunday school.



I don't need to prove you wrong, you need to prove your point & you haven't. You may think you have, I can't help with that.


----------



## BlazeMasterBM (Jan 16, 2021)

zxr750j said:


> Accepting everything someone's saying without doubt (like reading the bible, listening to trump or even your parents) apparently is human. At some point children learn to think for themselves, apparently some people don't.


some people like having faith. It's still thinking for yourself if you choose to follow a certain religion.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 16, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Incredibly egotistical to think of kids as nothing more than extension of yourself.


Your kids are half of your genetic line, which goes back to the beginning of life itself. They are the closest thing to immortality that exists in this world. Pretty odd that something so profound registers to you as "egotistical", which is the sort of word you see morbidly obese Jerry Springer guests spouting. I think you meant egocentric.



Xzi said:


> I might have some, I might not.  If I do, they'll be free to choose a religion for themselves, I'm not going to force that part of my own belief system down their throats.


So it's indoctrination when the right raises their kids to believe what they believe, but it's education when the left raises my kids to believe what they believe. Thanks for making your hypocrisy evident to all.



Xzi said:


> So reverse-gentrification in a sense?  I'm down for it.


Just remember that trying to escape diversity is racism too.



Xzi said:


> In a roundabout way I guess you're right, it is self-serving of me to want to lift the entire nation out of needless poverty and starvation.  It would be a lot easier for me to sleep at night and enjoy the things I do have, knowing that there is a baseline standard of living established for my fellow citizens.  I wouldn't have to worry about crime borne of desperation, in my neighborhood or any other.  The list goes on.


The only way to eliminate poverty is to make everyone poor, as demonstrated in the USSR, Cuba, Venezuela, and China before the dummies in charge of our trade policy decided to ship all our manufacturing to China.

Find me pictures of Americans - especially non-white Americans - that are thin and clearly starving, and I'll believe you when you say there's starvation in the USA. Don't forget to tell me how both starvation and obesity are both my fault, seeing as how white people are responsible for everything bad in the world.

In my experience, most crime is due to drug addiction or a lack of feedback in the crime/punishment system. You can commit pretty much any crime and get away with it until you're 18, then you're looking at 5 to 10 years. The lack of slowly escalating severity in response to crime teaches people that there is no punishment, when in reality the lump sum plus interest punishment is waiting down the line.



Xzi said:


> Could've fooled me, CNN and MSNBC covered a bunch of his rallies without any commentary whatsoever.


Provide a link to videos for such a claim.



Xzi said:


> Wal-Mart and any number other corporations would've thrown their weight behind the Republican candidate regardless of who won the primary.


And they also condemned the "violence" in the capital this past month. Corporations will do whatever they need to do to make money, it's literally the only reason they exist (and why they shouldn't exist).



Xzi said:


> Not to mention there's no way Trump would've won without the support of 80% of the nation's police, who you claim to hate.


Loathing is very different from hate. Hate is the mirror of love, in that you care deeply what someone thinks and feels, and want to continue your relationship with them just in a different manner. Loathing someone means that there is no relationship, just a void where any positive emotion could exist.

If you've read Orwell, you'd understand that cops serve power, full stop. They are the dogs trained by the pigs to keep the other animals in line, and rewarded with privileges and of course the supreme privilege of humiliating and tormenting those weaker than you with total impunity.



Xzi said:


> Precisely why we need expanded workers' rights, to get us more paid vacation time as a standard, among other benefits.  The US is a joke compared to the rest of the world in this regard.


I agree with the sentiment, but the path you propose won't work. It just results in an eternal game of cat and mouse between unions and corporations. Better to revert to a pre-modern system where Capital is constrained by geography, and prevented from collectivizing (issuing stocks and bonds, forming corporations, assigning officers to run corporations), while there are no such limits on Labor collectivizing via guilds and whatnot.

I mean, our manufacturing tech is so advanced that we don't need GloboGigaCorp Inc. to raise 2 billion dollars to make cars that break down in 7 years. We can just have a lot of small, locally owned micro-factories that form cooperatives and make parts based on agreed-upon specifications, and have other manufacturers assemble the parts incrementally until you have cars.

Or just do away with the high-way system altogether and revert to the more ecologically sustainable river navigation, canals, and rails systems.

It would be much, much simpler than having 700 million laws to deal with the BS that corporations get into, and being simpler it would be easier to navigate and to fix.

My ideal system is one where 90% of the population has a small business, and everyone is deeply rooted in a community that cares for them.



Xzi said:


> So a couple of guys with a podcast represent the entirety of the left now?  "The left" is not monolithic on any issue, pick a topic and I guarantee you I can find hundreds of pages of leftist infighting on it.


The infighting doesn't matter if it policy is informed by a handful of corporate and billionaire interests. I should know, the same is true of the Republican party which is why I hope it dies.



Xzi said:


> Needless to say, I don't agree that cashiers aren't a part of the working class.


Never look at Twitter then.



Xzi said:


> Ah yes, there's that "personal responsibility" Republicans are so famous for.


There's the empathy the left is famous for.



Xzi said:


> Awfully cryptic there.  Hoping for more violence, are we?


Wouldn't dream of it. Violence isn't necessary or productive when you literally do all the jobs that keep the nation running.

I'm hoping that the left does exactly what they say they plan to do, in regards to "deprogramming" Trump voters, and the Trump voters stop contributing to a society that hates them. We'll see how things work out in Lefty-Land without the overwhelmingly straight, white, Christian, and male:
firefighters
wildland firefighters
army and marine infantry
marine, army, and air force base and embassy security (coincidentally, the same people who protect CIA bases overseas)
special forces
coast guard drug and human smuggling interdiction forces
nuclear sub sailors
nuclear plant workers
pipe fitters
welder, especially marine welders and underwater welders
carpenters
concrete workers
airplane pilots
high rise steel frame construction workers
engineers, especially chemical engineers
oil field workers
coal miners
truck drivers
railroad freight movers and engineers
power linesmen

If Biden replaces all these straight white Christian men with woke BIPOCs and transgender people suffering from hormone-induced bone density loss, the USA's power and transportation infrastructure, and military, would collapse within a year... and the left would have no one to blame but themselves.

And before you go on about this being Nazi-ism or whatever, the grandparents and great-grandparents of these men defeated Nazi Germany, so technically they're antifa. If we had 250 lb 5'2" woke BIPOC enbys fighting the Wermacht, we'd be speaking German right now.

If you think your boutique oppressed groups can build and run a nation without these guys, you should consider why throughout the historical record, patriarchal shitlord barbarians routinely annihilated and enslaved "civilizations" run by rotund mother earth goddess (whom our blessed BIPOC enbys resemble) priestesses. Without these Trump voters, you're paying Los Zetas to not dismember you with landscaping tools and pimp out your female relatives.



Xzi said:


> I think you're vastly overestimating the impact of what I have to say, as well as vastly overestimating the impact GBAtemp has on US politics.


You're a good metric to measure the standard lefty by.



Xzi said:


> In any case, fuck 'em.  Aside from the people who have a confederate flag or a swastika hanging up in their house, anybody who watched four years of Trump's bombastic brand of hatred and divisiveness and decided, "yeah, I want more of that" is still irredeemable scum.


You're saying the quiet part out loud; namely that the issue with Trump isn't that he was bad, it's that he was uncouth. After all, Trump simply continued policies that were in place under Obama (kids in cages, drone strikes, mass deportations); but at least Obama wasn't rude!

It's a yuge mask-off (and then parts of the face drop off too) moment when a lefty admits that they are horrified more by working class aesthetics than they are by Pakistani weddings getting the drone strike double-tap.



Xzi said:


> Huh?  I didn't say anything about giving preference to any race.  I was referring to the same opportunities given to everybody.


Then you're mistaken or lying, because that's what the law says.



Xzi said:


> Oof, that must be some strong stuff you're smoking.  The US consumer pays for tariffs, it only affects China if we slow or stop consumption of Chinese goods.  AFAIK, Wal-Mart's profits didn't take a hit over the last four years, if anything they went up.  So you should be able to put two and two together there.


China paid the tariffs to keep their goods cheap in the USA. They can't afford for plants to return to the USA, because that would make it harder for them to return to China later. If a significant number of Chinese workers are left without anything to do, they'll riot since it's not like they're ever going to get married with China's gender imbalance.

Another 4 years of more tariffs on China would cause a civil war over there. Now that their man Biden is in office, they are home free.



Xzi said:


> It's hard to tell if it's decay or just status quo stupidity, as the elderly have maintained control over most leadership positions in this country for decades, if not centuries.


Boomers own like 20% to 40% of the wealth in the USA, and millenials own 2%. When they were our age, they owned 10%.

When the USSR fell, all of their leaders were almost as old as ours are now. Let that sink in.



Xzi said:


> On that we completely agree.  I'm just not sure why you can't see Trump as the exact same breed of neocon that GWB was.  After all, he assassinated a foreign military official without any provocation, it doesn't take much imagination to predict what would've happened if we had experienced a 9/11-style attack during his term.


General Soleimani pioneered the use of copper-tipped shaped explosive penetrators in IEDs, which create a thermal lance of copper plasma that can penetrate tank armor and BBQ the occupants. He had it coming for a long time.

While we shouldn't have gone into Iraq to start with, since we did we should have showed far less mercy to the enemy than we did.

It's better not to fight a war to begin with, but if you're going to fight, fight to win. Assassination of enemy military leaders is perfectly valid. The US military leadership pissed their pants about it because they know that the Iranians believe in an eye for an eye... but our brave generals are just there for the paycheck, not to die. If you die, you can't get a "consulting" job at Lockheed-Martin as thanks for buying the useless shit our wonderful military contractors sell us, and which our congress forces the military to buy.

The issue the military brass had with Trump is that he didn't kiss their asses and pretend that they're decent human beings who aren't screwing over the American people and especially enlisted troops. Rumsfeld had to be publicly shamed by E-3s on CNN to get the generals to advocate for anti-IED armor on humvees for fuck's sake, what makes you think anyone above O-3 gives a single solitary shit about the people they are sending to die in the deserts and mountains?



Xzi said:


> As center-right as he is, even Biden is reportedly considering eliminating the student debt bubble.  And sure, I'd agree that medical bills are out of control in this country too, something needs to be done about our healthcare system in general.  Obamacare was a tiny bandaid placed on a freshly-amputated limb, it doesn't go nearly far enough.


It will never happen, there's too much money to be made inserting clauses in regulations that give money to corporations.

Do you remember back when you could buy sudafed over the counter, even though people were using it to make meth? I do. It was a travesty, but weirdly enough it didn't stop until the mexican cartels started manufacturing ultra-pure meth at scale, which the local shake-and-bake tweakers couldn't compete with.

Apparently the makers of sudafed lobbied congress not to regulate it's sale, and once they stopped making money from it they stopped lobbying congress. So, congress did something well after the point where it would have made a difference.

Same for the opioid epidemic, which has killed almost a million people in the past 10 years.



Xzi said:


> It's nothing new unfortunately, it's just much easier to do on a much wider scale now, so more people are getting in on the grift.


I disagree. I think that the issue is loss of community (for a ton of different reasons). The religious impulse is built into people, and if you ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist it will manifest somehow. Our current secular civic religion venerates doped-up small-time criminals that get limited by our attack-dog cops, then burns down inner cities... but only during election years.

I'd feel better if leftists just converted to Islam or something. Anything but this cynical power-grab by the sociopaths in our government and corporate worlds.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> The 2nd part is correct. However, Trump did not almost destroy China´s economy. The trade war actually increased the trade imbalance, not decreased it. It would have only worked if China hadn´t increased tariffs as well.


Not really, China actually paid the tariffs themselves to sell their products over here lmao. They literally can't afford to not buy the food we produce.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> This is absolutely fascinating. East Asians in America are caught between playing the victim card (which does not work that well) and siding with Whites with regards to affirmative action etc.
> Especially the Koreans are interesting: When BLM happened many older Koreans remember the Rodney King riots and how they were left alone to defend their businesses (so they are not pro BLM). But many younger Koreans went protesting for BLM because they instinctively understand which views are beneficial for status and which aren´t.


The National Guard came through after the LAPD fled like whipped dogs, and told the Koreans that they would protect them, but they had to turn in their guns. The Koreans believed them, and then the National Guard vanished and the blacks got their revenge.

Koreans aren't as naive as Americans, they won't make the same mistake twice.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 16, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> Your kids are half of your genetic line, which goes back to the beginning of life itself. They are the closest thing to immortality that exists in this world.


Nothing close to immortality exists in this world currently.  If you're afraid of death you can just say so, it's not a particularly uncommon fear.  Obsessing over staving it off will only turn you into Dick Cheney.



MysticLord said:


> Pretty odd that something so profound registers to you as "egotistical", which is the sort of word you see morbidly obese Jerry Springer guests spouting. I think you meant egocentric.


Either works, no need to be pedantic.



MysticLord said:


> So it's indoctrination when the right raises their kids to believe what they believe, but it's education when the left raises my kids to believe what they believe. Thanks for making your hypocrisy evident to all.


So now you're giving "the left" ownership over all science, mathematics, and history?  Thanks for the free power boost, I guess?



MysticLord said:


> In my experience, most crime is due to drug addiction or a lack of feedback in the crime/punishment system.


Well, you're incorrect.  That's all there is to say about that.  There are crimes of necessity, and then there are crimes of passion/desire.  Most blue collar crime falls into the former category, and most white collar crime falls into the latter category.



MysticLord said:


> Loathing is very different from hate. Hate is the mirror of love, in that you care deeply what someone thinks and feels, and want to continue your relationship with them just in a different manner. Loathing someone means that there is no relationship, just a void where any positive emotion could exist.


Again, needlessly pedantic, but I'll let it slide.



MysticLord said:


> If you've read Orwell, you'd understand that cops serve power, full stop. They are the dogs trained by the pigs to keep the other animals in line, and rewarded with privileges and of course the supreme privilege of humiliating and tormenting those weaker than you with total impunity.


Indeed, and the reason they supported Trump is because he promised to shield them from all accountability.  Any politician with 80% police support is one that I want nothing to do with.



MysticLord said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but the path you propose won't work. It just results in an eternal game of cat and mouse between unions and corporations. Better to revert to a pre-modern system where Capital is constrained by geography, and prevented from collectivizing (issuing stocks and bonds, forming corporations, assigning officers to run corporations), while there are no such limits on Labor collectivizing via guilds and whatnot.
> 
> My ideal system is one where 90% of the population has a small business, and everyone is deeply rooted in a community that cares for them.


You're describing Socialism or Syndicalism, just a more de-centralized version of it.  Which might work if a hard reset were to occur for whatever reason, just not as things stand now.



MysticLord said:


> The infighting doesn't matter if it policy is informed by a handful of corporate and billionaire interests. I should know, the same is true of the Republican party which is why I hope it dies.


Leftist policy isn't informed by any one particular individual or group, as there is no leftist political party in the US.  Only center-right and far-right parties.  The CIA stages a coup in any country that elects a leader left of Reagan (only being slightly hyperbolic).



MysticLord said:


> If Biden replaces all these straight white Christian men with woke BIPOCs and transgender people suffering from hormone-induced bone density loss, the USA's power and transportation infrastructure, and military, would collapse within a year... and the left would have no one to blame but themselves.
> 
> And before you go on about this being Nazi-ism or whatever, the grandparents and great-grandparents of these men defeated Nazi Germany, so technically they're antifa. If we had 250 lb 5'2" woke BIPOC enbys fighting the Wermacht, we'd be speaking German right now.


Yikes.  Nothing but paranoia, ignorance, and xenophobia talking here.  I can assure you that there are still plenty of straight white males who side with antifa today.  Any true American is and always will be anti-fascist.

Besides, if we were going to have anybody replace you, obviously it would be the Jews.  



MysticLord said:


> You're a good metric to measure the standard lefty by.


Maybe a good choice for the "standard" democratic socialist, but I'm not a good representative for the thought processes of communists or anarchists.



MysticLord said:


> You're saying the quiet part out loud; namely that the issue with Trump isn't that he was bad, it's that he was uncouth.


No, it's that he was bad.  Malicious.  A dumb sort of malicious, but malicious nonetheless.  I shudder to think what a subtle, intelligent fascist might have been able to accomplish in his place, but then I remember that Trump wouldn't have been elected without the WWE/Nascar crowd backing him.  Picking up on subtlety is not their forte.



MysticLord said:


> Then you're mistaken or lying, because that's what the law says.


Or you read what you wanted to, not what I actually wrote.



MysticLord said:


> China paid the tariffs to keep their goods cheap in the USA.


The only sources I can find for this claim are Trump quotes, so I'm gonna go ahead and chalk that one up to you drinking the Kool-Aid.  The price of certain things did in fact go up for the US consumer, appliances being one of them.  Matter of fact, I believe there was an exemption on the tariff for GPUs that expired just within the last month or so, and then prices immediately shot up as a result.



MysticLord said:


> The issue the military brass had with Trump is that he didn't kiss their asses and pretend that they're decent human beings who aren't screwing over the American people and especially enlisted troops.


Well you're right about that, I believe he called them all suckers and losers, and he had particular disdain for anybody who had died in the line of duty.  Odd that so many more military votes went to Biden in 2020, right?

If I were to speculate, Trump probably believes that the wrong side won in WW2, just as many of his supporters do.



MysticLord said:


> I disagree. I think that the issue is loss of community (for a ton of different reasons).


Well, this dates back all the way to the very beginning.  When parishioners were mostly illiterate, priests would take advantage of that to increase their own wealth and power within the community.  Like I said, it's just much easier now and possible to reach a much wider audience.  There aren't nearly as many people that are outright illiterate, but there are still far too many who lack critical thinking skills entirely.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 18, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Nothing close to immortality exists in this world currently.  If you're afraid of death you can just say so, it's not a particularly uncommon fear.  Obsessing over staving it off will only turn you into Dick Cheney.


So people behaving as they have for hundreds of thousands of years - behaving as living things do, desiring to reproduce and care for their progeny - is obsessing over staving off death?

Pretty odd how all your lefty hot takes fly in the face of biological reality.

Besides that, the "y r u fraid of deff huh" bit is just an internet tough guy pseudo-flex. You'll notice that Christians have no problem being martyred when all other hope of victory is exhausted, and especially when martyrdom is how our enemies defeat themselves. The behavior of Biden et al - pretty clearly shows he intends to martyr a bunch of dumb boomers and larpers who were let into the capital by police, walked around, disrespected ARE SACRED POLITICOS offices, and shitposted about it on the internet while some antifa/feds goaded them and filmed it.

The tough guy bit is especially dumb when the Biden regime is worried that Secret Service - men whose job is to dive in front of bullets, no matter who is in charge - might be loyal to Trump and counter-coup Biden because apparently they all voted Trump. Same goes for them bringing in the fatties who are being processed out of the national guard to protect them, then fretting about their loyalties and taking away their ammo while they stand around impotently.

I'm not sure if it's political theater, or if it's guilt. It certainly isn't real fear, because the dummies who were invited into the capitol to walk around were threats to no one but themselves.



Xzi said:


> Either works, no need to be pedantic.


For a group that prides themselves on their verbal acumen you sure have Reddit-tier vocabularies. Your posts read like something from a Stephen King novel.




Xzi said:


> So now you're giving "the left" ownership over all science, mathematics, and history?  Thanks for the free power boost, I guess?


Do you mean the proven science that the Left wanted us to believe in February 2020 was that we didn't need masks and "it's just the flu"? And then we needed to shut everything down and wear what amounts to a t-shirt over our face to protect against something that would kill us all?

Or maybe you're talking about how we need to take a vaccine which harms 23 out of every 1000 people that take it, to protect against a virus that kills 5 out of every 10,000 that get it?

Wait, maybe you mean we need to take a vaccine despite the vaccine's providers and the media telling us that we'll still need to lock down, it won't protect us from the virus, it won't stop the spread of the virus, and we'll still need to wear masks?

Now we all wait for your inevitable snide, sneering remarks; or maybe your feigned outrage and moral hysteria.

Besides all of the above, if the Left is always right about the science then why don't they let anyone use the scientific method to verify their claims? Why do they deplatform those who want open debate (which is part of the scientific method) if they are the party of science?

The answer: because they're just using the word "science" as a weapon against the fellow citizens they see as enemies, and all they want it power (largely because they are useless for anything else).



Xzi said:


> Well, you're incorrect.  That's all there is to say about that.  There are crimes of necessity, and then there are crimes of passion/desire.  Most blue collar crime falls into the former category, and most white collar crime falls into the latter category.


That's not even an argument, you're just responding with a non-sequitur. Do you even do research, or read what your "enemies" write? I do. I know all your arguments inside and out.



Xzi said:


> You're describing Socialism or Syndicalism, just a more de-centralized version of it.  Which might work if a hard reset were to occur for whatever reason, just not as things stand now.


Actually I'm describing what a pre-modern society without a class of stationary bandits (nobility) is like, but go off. Maybe we can convince you to form a healthy society if we put stickers on it that say "soshulizum"... though such a society only existing when everyone is well armed might not be to your liking.



Xzi said:


> Leftist policy isn't informed by any one particular individual or group, as there is no leftist political party in the US.  Only center-right and far-right parties.  The CIA stages a coup in any country that elects a leader left of Reagan (only being slightly hyperbolic).


If you look at the CIA recruiting website it's all about diversity and inclusion, with pictures of woke mullattas (and of course their hair, gotta discuss that), gay men, asian women (who exclusively date white men), and various other diverse people who all look the same.

You need to stop thinking in terms of left vs right. That dichotomy no longer matters. Trump was part of a political realignment - which is also present as AMLO in Mexico, Orban in Hungary, Salvini in Italy, and so on - where one party becomes the party of the working and middle class, and the other one becomes the party of corporations, bankers, the ultra-wealthy 0.1%, their servants, and those who are totally dependent on the government to survive.

That a populist revolt manifests as right-wing to you should make you reconsider what left and right actually mean.



Xzi said:


> Yikes.  Nothing but paranoia, ignorance, and xenophobia talking here.


Who's paranoid? It's gonna be awesome for me! I get to chill out and lay around while y'all's infrastructure falls apart from neglect! I don't gotta to do shit, man - just gotta wait y'all out.



Xzi said:


> I can assure you that there are still plenty of straight white males who side with antifa today.


So you're saying that antifa is almost exclusively white?

That matches with my impressions. However I see lots of Mexicans on the right. Cubans too - never met a Cuban that voted Democrat.

Funny thing about Mexicans and Hispanics in general - they're naturally fascists. Seeing how they stood up and voted for Trump in 2020 really changed my opinion of them, and I'm glad to have them on my side... even if they are a little too extreme for me in many cases.

Besides, I'm not sure it's possible to be straight when no one wants to sleep with you and you need to pretend to be a feminist to get a crumb of pussy.



Xzi said:


> Any true American is and always will be anti-fascist.


That's funny, all summer this past year antifa was telling us that the USA and all Americans are vile, evil racists, and that the USA needs to be torn down. Do you really think we're dumb enough to miss that?



Xzi said:


> Besides, if we were going to have anybody replace you, obviously it would be the Jews.


Sorry, this doesn't jibe with reality. Jews less religious than the Orthodox disproportionately marry outside the tribe, especially female Jews. Those that don't, often don't have any kids at all... the childless Jewish journalist is so common they're almost a trope by now.

Modernity has affected Jews much more severely than it has Europeans.

The ones in Israel reproduce just fine, but they are totally dependent on the USA to defend them against Iran. Should Iran discover that you can easily/cheaply make hundreds of thousands of maritime drones (autonomous or remote controlled) armed with explosives to destroy US Navy cruisers and carriers, Israel would be in something of a pickle.

The same is true of autonomous aerial drones that drop white phosphorus grenades on the ships, tanks, artillery, ammo/fuel depots, and oil infrastructure in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, or the UAE. That would end with Iran taking hundreds of thousands of American troops hostage, thereby ensuring that neither the USA, Israel, or any of the USA's allies could strike at Iran or Hezbollah.

To my knowledge only China makes such drones currently. Good thing for Israel that China has absolutely no military or economic ties to Iran, or any reason to see Israel (a close military ally in the middle east, who helps contain China) defeated.

Can you imagine how it would feel to finally get Britain and then the USA to establish a state for you, in the homeland that you rode into and genocided the Philistines for as per your holy book, only to be denied it less than a century later and once again set loose to wander? Sad! But at least Russia has set aside the Jewish Autonomous Oblast for them; they can go back there and learn how to farm and work very hard to support themselves, without being dependent on anyone but themselves.

I have no problem with anyone based on their religion. Stephen Miller is about as Jewish as they come, and I'd hide him in my attic if he asked.



Xzi said:


> No, it's that he was bad.  Malicious.  A dumb sort of malicious, but malicious nonetheless.  I shudder to think what a subtle, intelligent fascist might have been able to accomplish in his place, but then I remember that Trump wouldn't have been elected without the WWE/Nascar crowd backing him.  Picking up on subtlety is not their forte.


Well the best thing to do then would be to telegraph that you intend to genocide them as payback for supporting Trump, right? Surely nothing could go wrong there!



Xzi said:


> The only sources I can find for this claim are Trump quotes, so I'm gonna go ahead and chalk that one up to you drinking the Kool-Aid.  The price of certain things did in fact go up for the US consumer, appliances being one of them.  Matter of fact, I believe there was an exemption on the tariff for GPUs that expired just within the last month or so, and then prices immediately shot up as a result.


Look at China's behavior, it's pretty obvious given how they acted and the reports of them running low on foreign currency.



Xzi said:


> Well you're right about that, I believe he called them all suckers and losers, and he had particular disdain for anybody who had died in the line of duty.


Weird how the left claims that:
1. War is bad, evil, and no good at all. Especially the Vietnam war. Only fascists went to fight, and they're baby killers! It's morally permissible to do anything to avoid going!
2. Anyone who tried to avoid getting their nuts blown off in the Vietnam war is a coward or evil!

You're just saying that because you think I'm dumb enough to fall for it, and you have no skills whatsoever except manipulating the meanings of words.



Xzi said:


> If I were to speculate, Trump probably believes that the wrong side won in WW2, just as many of his supporters do.


1. No one won WWII, it was L's all around. We'd all be better off if it never happened. If the Poles and French hadn't been itching for a rematch, if Britain wasn't run by incompetents, and if Hitler and his "elite" Nazis weren't completely retarded, it never would have happened. Millions of Jews would still be alive, though most of them wouldn't be living in Germany today.
2. Given that Germany created the Haavara Agreement and was following through with it before Allied bombing destroyed German supply lines and made it moot (leaving Germany with a bunch of people they were ideologically inclined to get rid of, and with no ability to simply expel them), we'd all be in the exact same position we're in today. There'd be a few million more Jews and Gypsies around, and a hell of a lot more Europeans, but otherwise I don't see much changing.



Xzi said:


> Well, this dates back all the way to the very beginning.  When parishioners were mostly illiterate, priests would take advantage of that to increase their own wealth and power within the community.  Like I said, it's just much easier now and possible to reach a much wider audience.  There aren't nearly as many people that are outright illiterate, but there are still far too many who lack critical thinking skills entirely.


I think you're projecting rabbinical behavior towards their followers onto Christians (barring the behavior of the highly centralized Catholic church, which has always been a shitshow and somehow keeps chugging along despite it). Religious authorities lived within easy lynching distance of their parishioners, and they couldn't possibly protect themselves 24/7/365. There are numerous reports in the historical record of corrupt clerics being killed, beaten, driven out of an area, and robbed by pissed off peasants. That there are so many reports belies the point; it happened often enough that they had plenty of incentives not to be shitheads. You don't hear about a good priest, only the bad ones.

Besides that, as bad as Catholic priests are, school teachers have higher rates of sexual offenses than they do. Should we ban public schooling? (Yes.)

---

All your posts operate on the assumption that I'm David Duke. You're really showing your ass to the audience by responding to the image of the Trump voter that exists only in your head, rather than the one you could easily see if you read what I write.

Neuroticism doesn't make allies.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 18, 2021)

MysticLord said:


> Snip


Yeah...I'm bored of this conversation now that all your posts are boiling down to several paragraphs worth of insults, conspiracy theories, bullshit, and revisions of statements I've already responded to.  I can get my fill of all that on 4chan if I so desire, guess I was a fool to expect better of conservatives anywhere on the web.  Your ego is ridiculously over-inflated, your religion is no better than any other, and it's clear you've abandoned the teachings of Christ like most Trump supporters anyway.  Good day, sir.


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 18, 2021)

Xzi said:


> Yeah...I'm bored of this conversation now that all your posts are boiling down to several paragraphs worth of insults, conspiracy theories, bullshit, and revisions of statements I've already responded to.  I can get my fill of all that on 4chan if I so desire, guess I was a fool to expect better of conservatives anywhere on the web.  Your ego is ridiculously over-inflated, your religion is no better than any other, and it's clear you've abandoned the teachings of Christ like most Trump supporters anyway.  Good day, sir.


I accept your surrender 

Just in time for Joe Biden to shut down oil from Canada. I hope you like $4 for a gallon of oil again!






Can you imagine how much oil will cost when Iran shuts down oil shipping through the Gulf of Aden, and overruns the Arabian peninsula?

I am going to enjoy my NEETdom in the "reeducation" camps as AOC calls it. Can't wait to chill out with my Twitter bros, shitpost IRL to the guards (maybe bang one or two of the cuter ones, since you know they'll have women guarding us), and watch the American empire shit the bed.


----------

