# When is pirating ok? (discussion)



## guyver2k (Jan 9, 2013)

Just signed up after lurking a long time! 

Don't say never, I'm constantly reading people here saying they would never do it. Well I believe a few people wouldn't but we all know 98% of people here are drooling over the possibility of playing free roms more so than homebrews themselves. I know with new touch screen consoles, the possibility for more interactive homebrews is a fun and cool idea. But We all know we originally bought the consoles for the games they offer (minus the hackers who wanna open up the consoles to decode them asap lol).

Anyways back to the title.

I myself in my entire life of video gaming from sega master system to today's consoles. I have almost never bought a game that was brand new. I mean with the exception of Black ops 2 recently (even though I have a hacked 360 that goes online). And Socom 3 for ps2 back in the day.
What I'm saying is I'm almost completely a used game buyer soley. Nintendo, microsoft, sony don't make money off me except for map packs, and if they have a game Im absolutely dying to try the first day including the new south park game to be released.

I download some games for free or pirate if you will. There I said it! I don't hoard them, I never download games I will never play. I'm not a software glutton and I own more used games than pirated ones (minus the wii).

I've had a used 3ds for over a year and a half and still only play a used copy of streetfighter i got on craigslist back when i bought it lol. I look forward to the 3ds being hacked for that. Its a neat system but not worth $40+ a game! ANY GAME!

So that being said the question is, if the game and console corporations aren't going to make money off you REGARDLESS is it ok to download SOME games??? This is for those who own everything used as far as consoles,games and accessories goes or even orders 3rd party accessories from china to save a buck.

I'm sorry but for me who has only paid for a new ps2, socom 3, black ops 2, and soon to be south park the stick of truth. I have no qualm with downloading a few games that don't WoW me. At the end of the day, Im playing my preordered copy of black op2 2 95% of the time.

At least I'm honest. Who wants to be honest with me?


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## osaka35 (Jan 9, 2013)

Is it illegal? Yes
Is it immoral? Probably
Is it justifiable? Possibly
Does it effect the industry? Debatable


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

Oh god not this thread again.

Just saying these never end well.


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## Chary (Jan 9, 2013)

Pirating is ALWAYS okay!
*Hugs HDD with questionably illegal downloads.*


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## Tekken179 (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Oh god not this thread again.
> 
> Just saying these never end well.


 
Have to agree with this, although to stop the inevitable flame war this will most likely get locked, I suggest you find a better site to discuss this upon. Most of us know the truth about half the users here (no offence to everyone) and tbh I think most of us don't care, free will, your own risk etc etc.


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## BORTZ (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Oh god not this thread again.
> 
> Just saying these never end well.



Yep. This thread again.


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## dragonmaster (Jan 9, 2013)

i knew it that as soon as the hacked tag was on the corner  flame wars and trolls were going to sprout from the ground .
the question was asked many times and we all have different opinions.prior to posting you could have just  look around the forums .


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 9, 2013)

Hope these 2 answer the question
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/campaign-piracy-farce-opinion/
http://www.blog.last-save.com/2010/08/why-pirating-doesnt-hurt-video-game-developers/


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## emigre (Jan 9, 2013)

The piracy discussions are pretty funny when you take into account GBAtemp's original purpose was to distribute roms.


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

I don't think there is much of a difference between buying a used game and pirating a game.  The result is that money that could have gone towards a video game publisher did not go towards that publisher. 

That being said, I will never, and have never, bought a brand new handheld game.  I bought a brand new console (ds lite, 3ds) but that's as much money that they will make from me.  If I were to buy a game, I'd get it used.   Even then, there aren't very many games that I want to play on handheld.  For some reason, it just doesn't keep my interest.  I may have 100+ downloaded games that I never paid for, but, I've played my ds for a total of like 4-5 hours in the past year.  I'd say 90% of my games haven't even been launched.  Even games that I heard so many good things about and my friends all convinced me I should get aren't as spectacular as I thought they would be.  I would be a very angry, and much more poor, video game enthusiast had I purchased these games used.  Either way, the game maker would not have actually made any money on the deal, just gamestop or random people selling at tag sales/flea markets.  To be honest, I think the game companies would rather they not make money as well.  I would say we're in agreement about that.

For consoles though, I have never hacked/pirated.  I love xbox live, and I don't want to jeopardize that.  I spend a lot of money on xbox live, and I do purchase new games simply so that my friends and I can play them while they're popular (which is when they're the most fun).   Even for ps2, I could have looked up a hack back in the day and put a hard drive in it and stored my games etc, but now I can let my friends borrow my old games, and just owning them in a huge collection is cool.  My children will be forced to play video game consoles in the order that I did.  (atari, nes, sega genesis, super nintendo, n64, ps1, ps2, gamecube, xbox360) 

tl;dr pirating = buying used games handhelds I pirate and don't play, consoles I pay for and play a lot


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## back25 (Jan 9, 2013)

maybe when you're 7 y/o and ask daddy for a game boy color and the seller offers you a 27 games in 1 cartridge.
or when your local video game rental store says games only work on "chipped" consoles.
Not that i wouldn't do it in other situations, though.

ps. this thread was uncalled for

edit: i mean chipped PS2 consoles


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## pwsincd (Jan 9, 2013)

When my 3 yr old daughter says "daddy daddy , will you download me that barbie movie?" i wonder where she gets it from


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## Valwin (Jan 9, 2013)

it never is


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

The whole thing with the "piracy doesn't hurt gaming" thing is a gigantic assumption that anyone who pirates a game wouldn't have bought it in the first place which is an absolute load of crap.

Regardless of how you look at it affecting the industry, you're still taking someone's hard earned work and playing it without a single dime going to them. Do people say the same on movies you pirate or music you pirate? In the end it's a similar situation: you taking someone's hard work, using it, and them not receiving any reward for their hard work.


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## SuzieJoeBob (Jan 9, 2013)

Before this gets out of hand (as usual), I will honestly say that I pirate games, but only for a few *justifiable* reasons (except for the last one, depending on your viewpoint).


1) If I bought the game, but lost it and can't find it. I'll delete the pirated version if I find my copy. I will then make a backup of it if possible.

2) I bought the game on one system, and it has been re-released on a newer one. For me, I have the original PS1 games and GBA/SNES games that are on their respective company's online store.

3) I want to try a game before I buy it. I don't feel like pay $50 or more for a crappy game and not having enough for a good one.

4) I just down-right feel that the company doesn't deserve it. For me, this is mainly Nintendo with Mario Bros. It's the same thing over and over again, using the same programs/engines used to make the previous one. All they did was rearrange a few things.


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## Yepi69 (Jan 9, 2013)

I only pirate when I don't have the money to buy the games, but as soon as I get money I'll buy the games I downloaded and liked, I've been playing Pokemon Emerald on emulators and last week I just bought a used cartridge of Pokemon Emerald and I'm still loving it 'till far.

The same goes for Wii games.


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> The whole thing with the "piracy doesn't hurt gaming" thing is a gigantic assumption that anyone who pirates a game wouldn't have bought it in the first place which is an absolute load of crap.
> 
> Regardless of how you look at it affecting the industry, you're still taking someone's hard earned work and playing it without a single dime going to them. Do people say the same on movies you pirate or music you pirate? In the end it's a similar situation: you taking someone's hard work, using it, and them not receiving any reward for their hard work.


 

Buying used is paying someone else for another person's work.  Not a single dime of that transaction goes to the maker of the work.


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## hundshamer (Jan 9, 2013)

Arrr matey. That should clarify my position on the subject.

One of the funniest things I've seen recently is one guy saying he doesn't want to play ROM's on his 3DS. He wants homebrew so hey can play emulators. What I find ironic about that is the fact that those emulators usually, but not always, use illegal ROM's themselves.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> Buying used is paying someone else for another person's work. Not a single dime of that transaction goes to the maker of the work.


 
I'm not saying buying used is any better but it doesn't diminish the fact that piracy is still bad.

And at least when you buy used you can buy DLC or online passes that goes towards the developer.


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## ferret7463 (Jan 9, 2013)

WAAAAAAY back in the day, when i was young and the Dinosaurs roamed freely across the land, Intellectual property was considered stolen....IF....You were making copies and SELLING it. Other wise it was sharing your product with others. We  used to make each other cassette tapes of music we had and VCR tapes of movies that our friends had. There was no real fuss.
   Then came the day... SONY screamed to the public that we,( the common people) did own what we bought but merely rent it from them. At first, the public said "That's Stupid." But now after years of constant yelling by the corporations that if you share then you are a thief. The public has been slowly persuaded that it's true. 
  I, for one say, it is not as big a deal as these companies make it out to be. Where i see it, most people don't want to bother with the technical mumbo jumbo and just pay for the product out right. I have had literally 100s of conversations with other parents who at first complain about the cost of DS games for their kids. I would then tell them about the R4 and how they could just get the Rom and install it on a micro SD.... Then they just say..."I'll just buy it." 
  I did not mean to make a rant, but i say it's alright and these companies are just brain washing you to think other wise.


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## Osha (Jan 9, 2013)

I'll resume my opinion on piracy with a few words: I don't care.
People can pirate all they want, it's not gonna hurt a huge company at all. Same goes for anti-piracy, it's just a temporary shield for the companies to sell a few more games, and it's not hurting pirates at all since within the week, the AP is broken anyway.


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## dragonmaster (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> The whole thing with the "piracy doesn't hurt gaming" thing is a gigantic assumption that anyone who pirates a game wouldn't have bought it in the first place which is an absolute load of crap.
> 
> Regardless of how you look at it affecting the industry, you're still taking someone's hard earned work and playing it without a single dime going to them. Do people say the same on movies you pirate or music you pirate? In the end it's a similar situation: you taking someone's hard work, using it, and them not receiving any reward for their hard work.


if i am to quote it i  must say that companies on their workers do earn a lot and pay a little ,when i was a cinema manager i worked 48-52h a week to earn a lousy month income of 1000euro and yet they were greedy enough to try and lower my salary to 800 euro ,so the system is using us ,drain us from our life for a low salary and what to say about the poor people that were below of me and worked for 600 euro per month for 45h a week.
well if they dont respect the human aspect companies what we can do ,feel pity if they loose some money?
i was receiving movies and believe me the earning only for the right to distribute them on cinemas was worth of the production.
in the end what is it for us for the base to live and die working.Yes i sometimes pirate in order to see the games if they worth and i like them i buy them used of course,and now they are trying to put an end to used games so what is for us to do ??


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## guyver2k (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> The whole thing with the "piracy doesn't hurt gaming" thing is a gigantic assumption that anyone who pirates a game wouldn't have bought it in the first place which is an absolute load of crap.
> 
> Regardless of how you look at it affecting the industry, you're still taking someone's hard earned work and playing it without a single dime going to them. Do people say the same on movies you pirate or music you pirate? In the end it's a similar situation: you taking someone's hard work, using it, and them not receiving any reward for their hard work.


 
But by that standard, then buying used games are immoral.
oops my mistake. missed ur previous post nevemind


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## pwsincd (Jan 9, 2013)

If they really wanted to kill piracy they would try harder  to defend their systems from hackers and put in place better one owner systems to block 2nd hand purchases until then its up to me to assess the risk / benefit it has on my family as they aint ever d/led for me just ma kids , and i know how much it pisses me off to see all those games i bought for 40 - 50 quid a throw sit there gathering dust after the novelty wore off - so i selll them , and the more this cycle continues the less i buy the more i d/l.


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## guyver2k (Jan 9, 2013)

Sry guys if this was a sensitive subject. I actually thought I was starting some type of intelligent debate.


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## Rydian (Jan 9, 2013)

It becomes legal when the copyright expires.
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

In my mind it becomes be morally justifiable when the products are not obtainable under normal means anymore.  You can go to your local game store, fire up steam, head to amazon, etc. and get a copy of Assassin's Creed III right now, so there's no need to pirate it in order to play it.



Guild McCommunist said:


> The whole thing with the "piracy doesn't hurt gaming" thing is a gigantic assumption that anyone who pirates a game wouldn't have bought it in the first place which is an absolute load of crap.
> 
> Regardless of how you look at it affecting the industry, you're still taking someone's hard earned work and playing it without a single dime going to them. Do people say the same on movies you pirate or music you pirate? In the end it's a similar situation: you taking someone's hard work, using it, and them not receiving any reward for their hard work.


The problem is that the world isn't black and white.  Just because there's people who would pirate instead of buying doesn't mean that the polar opposite of the original assumption is true.

Pirating a movie "damages the economy" about as much as going to your friend's house to watch it instead of buying your own does.  In both cases you have chosen against sending the company money, while still experiencing the product (since, after all, you'd just pay them for the ability to experience it anyways, not to actually own a copy).


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## osaka35 (Jan 9, 2013)

Used games hurt the industry as much as pirated games. Does this mean pirated games don't hurt the industry? No, it just means it hurts it just as much as used games. So the REAL question is, how evil is selling/buying used games? amiright? amiright?


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## guyver2k (Jan 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> It becomes legal when the copyright expires.
> http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
> 
> In my mind it becomes be morally justifiable when the products are not obtainable under normal means anymore. You can go to your local game store, fire up steam, head to amazon, etc. and get a copy of Assassin's Creed III right now, so there's no need to pirate it in order to play it.
> ...


 
So true. They only ones that miss out is the owners, not the guys on the sets or production. All the small ppl are needed for the film industry to work. The only ones missing out are asshole film companies suing single mothers for over $2,000,000+ for downloading 2 shitty movies online. Yeah I have no pity for the rich personally. They'll do just fine.


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## Yepi69 (Jan 9, 2013)

ferret7463 said:


> WAAAAAAY back in the day, when i was young and the Dinosaurs roamed freely across the land, Intellectual property was considered stolen....IF....You were making copies and SELLING it. Other wise it was sharing your product with others. We used to make each other cassette tapes of music we had and VCR tapes of movies that our friends had. There was no real fuss.
> Then came the day... SONY screamed to the public that we,( the common people) did own what we bought but merely rent it from them. At first, the public said "That's Stupid." But now after years of constant yelling by the corporations that if you share then you are a thief. The public has been slowly persuaded that it's true.
> I, for one say, it is not as big a deal as these companies make it out to be. Where i see it, most people don't want to bother with the technical mumbo jumbo and just pay for the product out right. I have had literally 100s of conversations with other parents who at first complain about the cost of DS games for their kids. I would then tell them about the R4 and how they could just get the Rom and install it on a micro SD.... Then they just say..."I'll just buy it."
> I did not mean to make a rant, but i say it's alright and these companies are just brain washing you to think other wise.


Actually its more cheaper to pay 5$ for an R4 than almost 40$ for a DS cartridge.


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## ferret7463 (Jan 9, 2013)

to *Yepi69* , that is what i mean, most people are too lazy or don't want to do all that to get a game.


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

osaka35 said:


> Used games hurt the industry as much as pirated games. Does this mean pirated games don't hurt the industry? No, it just means it hurts it just as much as used games. So the REAL question is, how evil is selling/buying used games? amiright? amiright?


 
The real problem is that there are too many game companies out there making too many games for 60 dollars a pop, that they are taking each others business away from each other.  They think if they make the new Halo that they'll be in free money. 

ex.  Kingdoms of amalur: reckoning.  Made by Curt Shilling, the red sox baseball dude.  He borrowed loads of money to make the game, but it just didn't sell.  It wasn't unique enough, and his company went bankrupt and they defaulted on their loans.  However, the game was really fun.  I bought it when it first came out.  Even though the game was really fun, there were just way too many other games that were coming out that it flopped.


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## osaka35 (Jan 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> It becomes legal when the copyright expires.
> 
> http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/


Unfortunately, copyright never seems to expire. What I mean by that is, whenever mickey mouse seems to be getting close to expiring, copyright length seems to get extended by quite a bit. In other words, don't expect any copyright that was created after mickey mouse to ever become copyright free. Not in the US, anyway, and not with the current political structure.


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## lokomelo (Jan 9, 2013)

I think that it is funny those piracy-revolutionaries...
Ok, I think that capitalism is not ok, capitalism is immoral, etc, etc. But pirating a capitalist product is not a noble revoluticionary act at all. You will not become a new Che Guevara hacking and pirating stuff.

Piracy it is just a good way to save money and play crap things that you would never ever buy. There is no revolution on it.


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## The_Hulkster (Jan 9, 2013)

pwsincd said:


> When my 3 yr old daughter says "daddy daddy , will you download me that barbie movie?" i wonder where she gets it from


 
I don't mean to tell you how to raise your kids but let's be honest.. That's just setting a bad example.


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## DaniPoo (Jan 9, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> I think that it is funny those piracy-revolutionaries...
> Ok, I think that capitalism is not ok, capitalism is immoral, etc, etc. But pirating a capitalist product is not a noble revoluticionary act at all. You will not become a new Che Guevara hacking and pirating stuff.
> 
> Piracy it is just a good way to save money and play crap things that you would never ever buy. There is no revolution on it.



I agree! I cant believe how many morons there is on the internet. Trying to "blablabla" people to think its ok with piracy. Its never ok. But wether you care or not is the question!


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> The real problem is that there are too many game companies out there making too many games for 60 dollars a pop, that they are taking each others business away from each other. They think if they make the new Halo that they'll be in free money.
> 
> ex. Kingdoms of amalur: reckoning. Made by Curt Shilling, the red sox baseball dude. He borrowed loads of money to make the game, but it just didn't sell. It wasn't unique enough, and his company went bankrupt and they defaulted on their loans. However, the game was really fun. I bought it when it first came out. Even though the game was really fun, there were just way too many other games that were coming out that it flopped.


 
Saying you pirate to stop the big mean corporations over a completely luxury product is the largest load of bullshit anyone can peddle.

It's a luxury, if you don't like the price don't play it. There's about a thousand other hobbies out there.

Also, implying Halo is a "free money" game. Halo 4 cost what, $60 million to make? Regardless of how you like it, the games have effort put into it. Like whether you like the games or not, I think it's pretty spiteful to say that they're not made with care. Good graphics, fun level design, fun multiplayer, and a great soundtrack. These aren't slapped together in a couple of months.


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## guyver2k (Jan 9, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> I think that it is funny those piracy-revolutionaries...
> Ok, I think that capitalism is not ok, capitalism is immoral, etc, etc. But pirating a capitalist product is not a noble revoluticionary act at all. You will not become a new Che Guevara hacking and pirating stuff.
> 
> Piracy it is just a good way to save money and play crap things that you would never ever buy. There is no revolution on it.


 
Muito verdade amigo. 
Very true


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## emigre (Jan 9, 2013)

I pirate because I can.

End of.


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## Valwin (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> The real problem is that there are too many game companies out there making too many games for 60 dollars a pop, that they are taking each others business away from each other. They think if they make the new Halo that they'll be in free money.
> 
> ex. Kingdoms of amalur: reckoning. Made by Curt Shilling, the red sox baseball dude. He borrowed loads of money to make the game, but it just didn't sell. It wasn't unique enough, and his company went bankrupt and they defaulted on their loans. However, the game was really fun. I bought it when it first came out. Even though the game was really fun, there were just way too many other games that were coming out that it flopped.


 
so you cant buy  a $60 game so you steal it


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## Osha (Jan 9, 2013)

Valwin said:


> so you cant buy a $60 game so you steal it


I wouldn't shell out 60 bucks in a game either, especially when you know the production cost is at least two times lower.


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## pwsincd (Jan 9, 2013)

its ok , i dont mind.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

I love how gamers today are so self entitled that they think paying $60 for a game is "ridiculous". It's a hobby, grow up.


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## Haloman800 (Jan 9, 2013)

It's not immoral, stealing takes from somebody else, piracy makes a copy.

If you wouldn't buy the game anyway, the big corporations don't lose any profit if you download it.. That's not to say it's legal though, but there are many things that are legal that are wrong in my opinion (Abortion being a big one, but that's an entirely different discussion..)

Even if every single member of this forum pirated every piece of digital content they "owned", the big businesses wouldn't even see a microscopic dent in their paychecks.

tl;dr Piracy is fine.


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## DaniPoo (Jan 9, 2013)

emigre said:


> I pirate because I can.
> 
> End of.


 
With other words "Because you dont really care if its wrong or not"


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

DaniPoo said:


> With other words "Because you dont really care if its wrong or not"


 
Which I wish people just said instead of trying to pass off a clearly illegal activity as "perfectly just".

I do pirate and I use this exact reasoning. I know it's morally wrong but I'm a cheap bastard and don't care.


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## osaka35 (Jan 9, 2013)

Haloman800 said:


> It's not immoral, stealing takes from somebody else, piracy makes a copy.
> 
> If you wouldn't buy the game anyway, the big corporations don't lose any profit if you download it.. That's not to say it's legal though, but there are many things that are legal that are wrong in my opinion (Abortion being a big one, but that's an entirely different discussion..)
> 
> ...


 
I find it very useful to imagine the same scenario, but with something a bit more tangible. Just replace "download/pirate" with "photocopying". So, rephrase the situation as, "Is taking a photocopied copy of a book from a friend wrong?"

Can you honestly say you see absolutely nothing wrong with photo-copying a book and giving it out to everyone who wants it? either for free or a fee?


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## the_randomizer (Jan 9, 2013)

On the moral side of things, I believe that if you're in legal possession of a disc (DVD, game, etc) and it gets scratched to the point of being unreadable, downloading a copy isn't a big moral issue, but legally, it's a big no-no. Removing DRM I don't have a problem with either, as it affects legit users as well; Ubisoft's UPlay anyone?  I don't believe that music should have DRM if you bought it legally, I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with my music. I'm not going to distribute it, I want to be able to use it as many times as I want without having to repurchase it.  As for legacy games (pre 32-bit), that's hard to justify. Granted, games are available on PSN and the VC, but they don't always have the games we REALLY want, and as such, they're no longer being produced. The only people making money off of those are greedy second-hand retailers, and why should I have to pay $100+ for Chrono Trigger or Star Ocean? What's more wrong, downloading a ROM of a game no longer being produced or paying with your blood for an overpriced cartridge that no longer retains in-game saves from some seedy dude on eBay?

I've no moral issue with downloading ROM files from games no longer generating revenue to their respective companies.  Those greedy second-hand retailers can bugger off.


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## rupok93 (Jan 9, 2013)

Piracy is always wrong. ALWAYS! You are basically stealing as in the sense of not paying for something, not literally doing it. Stop trying to justify it because while I hate words like "entitled" in this case the word fits perfectly if you are trying to justify piracy. However just because its wrong doesn't mean you can't do it. I am looking forward to the 3ds hack. I use piracy as a way to sample games, its still wrong but a little less than outright just pirating everything.


I accept that its wrong but that doesn't mean Ill stop doing it.


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## porkiewpyne (Jan 9, 2013)

osaka35 said:


> I find it very useful to imagine the same scenario, but with something a bit more tangible. Just replace "download/pirate" with "photocopying". So, rephrase the situation as, "Is taking a photocopied copy of a book from a friend wrong?"
> 
> Can you honestly say you see absolutely nothing wrong with photo-copying a book and giving it out to everyone who wants it? either for free or a fee?


^Technically it is. There are laws (at least here in Aus) which limits you to photocopying max 10% of a book or something along those lines. Which is fair imho.

Looking through the other comments, I find it funny how some people take it as their sworn duty to lead the crusade against the evils of making large sums of money. If you don't agree to a company's policy, you boycott it. Not steal from it. Two wrongs don't make a right (Yes I know I am pushing it). If their devious money-making schemes are a "crime" you do not commit another crime to set it straight. Just sayin'.

Now where did I put my Ferrari which I took from them evil people who charge too much for a four-wheeled vehicle?


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## Maxternal (Jan 9, 2013)

Hmm, I kinda wonder if this thread will be left open as a place for people to rant rather than having this same subject constantly sidetracking other threads as it has in the past ... or if mods will just close it out of principle.

Only time will tell.


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## Kikirini (Jan 9, 2013)

Personally, I really want to support game companies. I have no issue with buying games new, or paying again to get an old game on my new system. I have the money to do that, and if I don't, it's as simple as waiting until I do have cash again.
Sometimes, though, the stuff I want isn't something I can pay for. Games I was really looking forward to that never made it to America, I pirate. Old games I owned but no longer can find the system for them, I pirate. 

Nintendo still doesn't like it, but... if they make games I want available for purchase, I will buy them. And that's my two cents.


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Saying you pirate to stop the big mean corporations over a completely luxury product is the largest load of bullshit anyone can peddle.
> 
> It's a luxury, if you don't like the price don't play it. There's about a thousand other hobbies out there.
> 
> Also, implying Halo is a "free money" game. Halo 4 cost what, $60 million to make? Regardless of how you like it, the games have effort put into it. Like whether you like the games or not, I think it's pretty spiteful to say that they're not made with care. Good graphics, fun level design, fun multiplayer, and a great soundtrack. These aren't slapped together in a couple of months.





Valwin said:


> so you cant buy a $60 game so you steal it


 
That's not what I was saying.  I'm saying that they are killing each other off by having too many companies making too many games, cutting down their own businesses.  Like I said, I bought kingdoms of amalur, and I liked it.  I don't pirate on console, I only pirate on handheld, where I don't even really play the games I pirate.  It's more of a forced demo, in my personal situation.

And yes, it's not technically free money, but, there are too many companies making games trying to get the blockbuster status of halo/cod.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> That's not what I was saying. I'm saying that they are killing each other off by having too many companies making too many games, cutting down their own businesses. Like I said, I bought kingdoms of amalur, and I liked it. I don't pirate on console, I only pirate on handheld, where I don't even really play the games I pirate. It's more of a forced demo, in my personal situation.
> 
> And yes, it's not technically free money, but, there are too many companies making games trying to get the blockbuster status of halo/cod.



Also, "blockbuster" is rather subjective. Yeah, CoD and Halo sell well, but so does Mario Kart or Just Dance. What can constitute a "blockbuster" is so diverse that it isn't really strangling creativity in the industry.

Not to mention there's still plenty of people who cater to a smaller niche. It's what Atlus makes a living off of.

What's wrong if games want to gain a status like CoD/Halo anyway? Who doesn't want a successful game?


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## rupok93 (Jan 9, 2013)

The only way piracy has any sort of justification is when they are unavailable in the market. Such as really old games that you can't find anywhere, in other media these things become public domain so I think in that case piracy is justified.

Any other justification for piracy is complete bs. Its wrong and you know it, you try to justify it cause you feel the need to make yourself feel better.


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## Chaossaturn (Jan 9, 2013)

I said it before and I will say it again, there's only one thing I don't like about this forum and that's all the official idiot mummy boys, that are on here. To you official people, people pirate games, fucking live with it. If you have a problem with it buy your fucking games and stop trying to force your ideas on to others, I don't care if you think it morally wrong, that's your problem.

There's the facts people, pirates don't like official mummy boys and official mummy boys don't like pirates, that's how it is, thread closed.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 9, 2013)

Kikirini said:


> Personally, I really want to support game companies. I have no issue with buying games new, or paying again to get an old game on my new system. I have the money to do that, and if I don't, it's as simple as waiting until I do have cash again.
> Sometimes, though, the stuff I want isn't something I can pay for. Games I was really looking forward to that never made it to America, I pirate. Old games I owned but no longer can find the system for them, I pirate.
> 
> Nintendo still doesn't like it, but... if they make games I want available for purchase, I will buy them. And that's my two cents.


 
This goes along with the 3DS and Nintendo's dick decision to region lock it.  If games don't make it out of Japan, I'd have to buy it from another region, so here's to hoping region locking will be removed in the near future, otherwise, I'd have to find a way to load 3DS ROMs on a flash cart. Piracy is an issue, yes, but for older, no-longer-being-produced-or-sold games, I have no issue with.  If Nintendo doesn't like it, they should put more games on the Virtual Console, and not be a wanker by removing games.


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## rupok93 (Jan 9, 2013)

Chaossaturn said:


> I said it before and I will say again, there's only one thing I don't like about this forum and that's all the official idiot mummy boys, that are on here. To you official people, people pirate games, fucking live with it. If you have a problem with it buy your fucking games and stop trying to force your ideas on to others, I don't care if you think it morally wrong, that's your problem.
> 
> There's the facts people, pirates don't like official mummy boys and official mummy boys don't like pirates, that's how it is, thread closed.


 

 I think piracy is morally wrong but I still do it, but I completely hate it when people try to justify piracy as if its a god given right or some other bs.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

Chaossaturn said:


> I said it before and I will say it again, there's only one thing I don't like about this forum and that's all the official idiot mummy boys, that are on here. To you official people, people pirate games, fucking live with it. If you have a problem with it buy your fucking games and stop trying to force your ideas on to others, I don't care if you think it morally wrong, that's your problem.
> 
> There's the facts people, pirates don't like official mummy boys and official mummy boys don't like pirates, that's how it is, thread closed.


 
The Mummy was a good enough movie to get fanboys?


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## porkiewpyne (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> The Mummy was a good enough movie to get fanboys?


Well The Rock was in it and he seemed pretty badass back in the days when I was still a wittle boy XD


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## omgpwn666 (Jan 9, 2013)

Pirating is never ok. But I do it all the time.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 9, 2013)

omgpwn666 said:


> Pirating is never ok. But I do it all the time.


Just don't noise it about, you never know if some goody two-shoes might squeal on you.


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## SoraK05 (Jan 9, 2013)

In East Africa growing up pirated / fake games were available for Mega Drive and GameBoy.. Some fake games would cost more than 'original' games overseas..
For PSX it was easy to find a wide option of pirated games for $5-7 each, and same generally for the PS2..
People don't know too much about PS3/360/Wii hacking around, so pirated games for those are not as easy or common as the prior ones..

When I would get original games, it was something I would appreciate, and the game feels more enjoyable..

I would rather stick to original games only - whether it is rented, bought new or used..
I prefer to avoid pirated games..  I would rather not boot up a pirated game..

Flash Carts for DS and WODE / USB Loading for Wii for example are handy though, providing the games are dumps of your original 
I prefer an official option, like the eShop for 3DS / WiiU..


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## Chary (Jan 9, 2013)

So in this vein, does that mean recording something off a radio, and making a mix tape of it, and giving it to a friend can be called piracy? I don't remember that being illegal. What's the difference if you record a movie, make a DVD, and share with a friend? 

This is what my Mom told me after discussing the topic of piracy with her.


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## SoraK05 (Jan 9, 2013)

Broadcasts are provided by companies to be watched / listened to - they are meant to be recorded with permission from broadcasters and their sources, such as PVRs (which have DRM / encryption)..


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## the_randomizer (Jan 9, 2013)

DRM is of the devil, legit customers should be able to buy products without invasive measures. It doesn't curtail piracy, it only exacerbates it. Ubisoft is a shining example of that, remember Assassin's Creed 2 Brotherhood? DRM worked pretty well for that, right??


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## Qtis (Jan 9, 2013)

I'll just leave this here (originates from Penny Arcade).







 It's not a reference to piracy, but the basic idea is just the same in regards to makers getting paid etc..


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## SoraK05 (Jan 9, 2013)

I don't agree with the necessity to connect to a server to play, even if the game has a single player mode, for the preservation of the game once the server is shut down..


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## osaka35 (Jan 9, 2013)

The point of not allowing end-users the right to use backups/copies, in whatever form they take, is so the company can maximize profit and retain those rights for themselves.

Yes, it sucks that they region lock their product. But it's their product to do that with, and they do so to maximize profit and get better statistics on who buys games where.
Yes, it sucks they don't re-release old games for new consoles. But by doing so, they have the option of waiting until they see a substantial profit in doing so.
Yes, it sucks that you have to buy a new copy if your old one breaks/scratches. But it's not their responsibility to ensure that their products are handled with care (obviously not talking about warranties or design flaws. You know what I mean.)

Basically, current copyright law isn't really geared towards satisfying the end user. Copyright laws, including the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, focus on ensuring that the copyright owners can do with their product as they see fit and no one else can. Even if they choose to be complete tools and idiots about how they go about enforcing their rights.

This is all just the legal stuff though. They all seem like fine personal reasons for pirating, to me anyway, just don't kid yourself as to whether it's legally justifiable, in any sense of the word.


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Also, "blockbuster" is rather subjective. Yeah, CoD and Halo sell well, but so does Mario Kart or Just Dance. What can constitute a "blockbuster" is so diverse that it isn't really strangling creativity in the industry.
> 
> Not to mention there's still plenty of people who cater to a smaller niche. It's what Atlus makes a living off of.
> 
> What's wrong if games want to gain a status like CoD/Halo anyway? Who doesn't want a successful game?


 
What's wrong is that consumers have a limit to how many games they can pay for.  They are not an unlimited resource, which companies don't really understand.  So they flood the market with multi million dollar games that can't bring in the multi millions back.  They also create a desire to play their games through advertising.  Some advertising is so good that for some people (mostly children) they HAVE to have the game.  But if you HAVE to have every game, you can't, so, in other words they're spending money to make people want to have games they can't afford.  Where does this leave us?  people stealing them.

This is why many games trying to be blockbusters is bad.


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Which I wish people just said instead of trying to pass off a clearly illegal activity as "perfectly just".
> 
> I do pirate and I use this exact reasoning. I know it's morally wrong but I'm a cheap bastard and don't care.


 
Oh, I wasn't trying to say it was morally right.  Just caught this post of yours.  But, if everyone was moral, we'd be in a much better world right now, where everyone could afford all the games they wanted.


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## porkiewpyne (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> But, if everyone was moral, we'd be in a much better world right now, where everyone could afford all the games they wanted.


Going out on a limb here but...
People being moral/ethical =/= being able to afford all games desired
People being moral/ethical = owning only games that can be bought with own money

But that's just how I see thing


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

porkiewpyne said:


> Going out on a limb here but...
> People being moral/ethical =/= being able to afford all games desired
> People being moral/ethical = owning only games that can be bought with own money
> 
> But that's just how I see thing


 
okay maybe not all games desired, but people would be earning living wages instead of earning shit wages, giving them more buying power.  CEOs wouldn't inflate their own wages simply for more money, and products COULD be cheaper in general.


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## ov3rkill (Jan 9, 2013)

Pirating isn't ok when you go around killing and raping. Pirating is ok when you're like Jack Sparrow and Monkey D. Luffy.


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## ImNotSkilled (Jan 9, 2013)

Would you guys consider GameFly pirating?


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

ImNotSkilled said:


> Would you guys consider GameFly pirating?


 
Yes it is.


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## ImNotSkilled (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> Yes it is.



I agree but it's a copyrighted/trademarked company!


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## Haloman800 (Jan 9, 2013)

osaka35 said:


> I find it very useful to imagine the same scenario, but with something a bit more tangible. Just replace "download/pirate" with "photocopying". So, rephrase the situation as, "Is taking a photocopied copy of a book from a friend wrong?"
> 
> Can you honestly say you see absolutely nothing wrong with photo-copying a book and giving it out to everyone who wants it? either for free or a fee?


Duplicating a book? My original argument applies. If you weren't going to buy the book in the first place, no one loses anything by you copying it (besides the ink and paper it takes to produce, but if you own it it's your "loss").

Of course mass-distributing it would cause a loss of profit for whomever wrote/distributes the book, because a lot of those people probably would of bought it if they couldn't get it for free.


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## jakeyjake (Jan 9, 2013)

ImNotSkilled said:


> I agree but it's a copyrighted/trademarked company!


 
just because they are within the law doesn't mean that they aren't making a profit off others work.


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## ImNotSkilled (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> just because they are within the law doesn't mean that they aren't making a profit off others work.



Very true. Their motto is " Try before you buy! ".

That's silly. Some people are surprisingly too lazy to pirate on their own!


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## mightymuffy (Jan 9, 2013)

To the OP: personally I find the notion of both buying and spending 95% of your gaming time playing Black Ops 2 more horrific than any pirating you may have done.....

I remember firing up Visual Boy Advance on the PC back when the GBA was doing the rounds - now if I had just looked at the back of the box of either Wario Ware or Advance Wars, trust me I wouldn't have bought them.. but after playing them on VBA I had no hesitation in nipping down to my local game store a snapping up a copy of either!
Still, that's a one off to be honest... now since we're in the 3DS section, if we are eventually able to grab anything for it, ....yeah I'll probably grab a couple of titles I've kinda had my eye on but not thought were worth my cash... but if they do end up being good enough I'll still splash out. Otherwise the emulators will appeal, and I only usually play titles I've owned in the past there...
Doesn't make me any less a pirate than the next guy of course, but I don't feel quite so bad doing it....


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## Zetta_x (Jan 9, 2013)

As long as <5% people pirate, I say it's healthy for the gaming economy.

There are a lot of games which no one is going to play or buy. Like kitty kitty boo boo fuck fuck, no one is going to dish out hard earned money for this game. However, people will pirate it because people will download anything that has legs on them. So while piracy may hurt the mainstream games, it balances it out by providing fluid dynamics for the games that no one is going to buy.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 9, 2013)

It's hilarious seeing people try and compare piracy to the "used games market".
Funny thing about the claim that devs make no money off of trade-ins...
What do most people buy with the money/credit they get from trade-ins? Games. New games and/or used games.
New vs. used games isn't a chicken vs. egg equation. There is most definitely an answer. In order for a game to be "used" it has to be purchased "new" at some point.
Does anyone honestly think that Modern Warfare 2 has sold 25 million copies for straight up cash, or that it would have? People trade in games for two reasons. One, the game isn't worth keeping. Two, they want money to spend on something else (likely another game). At $60 a pop, the "average gamer" can't afford to buy every big game that's released. So would a dev rather lose a sale completely due to market saturation or would they like there to be an option for those with less disposable income to get a hold of these games and get their cut through DLC?

Also, how many people trade in a game towards a pre-order? A bucking futtload do. The devs are definitely getting a cut based off items shipped to retailers as the publisher is getting paid for those games whether they sell or not.

Piracy, on the other hand, is straight theft. "I'm not _taking_ anything from anyone, I'm just making a copy. I wouldn't have bought it anyway." Bullshit. You are utilizing a good or service without the consent of the provider of that good or service. Exchange of money grants permission. There are no cases in which piracy is acceptable. "But such&such game wasn't released in my region. Games are too expensive here." So. People in Venezuela are paying $0.20 a gallon for gasoline while I just paid $3.39 a gallon two nights ago (yeah...I know many people are paying much more...) and you're crying injustice over video games?


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## koimayeul (Jan 9, 2013)

Eh, a pirating legitimacy thread, how i missed those!

Well, it can't hurt industry to pirate a movie/game/song once in a while if you delete it from your hard drive after use.. I guess..
Or for testing purpose for a few hours, them being either overpriced or hardly available (too old, import, etc) .. I could understand that.


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## Kouen Hasuki (Jan 9, 2013)

I'll throw my 2 cents in on this one.

to me in most normal cases, if the games are no longer being made like say GBA carts, I think its fair game.
otherwise it really depends on the situation, i.e. I always download Sonic games before possibly buying them as they have had a fair few stink bombs over the more recent years (Sonic 06 and Shadow the Hedgehog... I'm looking at you!)

Thats just my thoughts. But if anyone is curious I do buy most of my games unless I've hopped on a platform I cant get games new from since the publisher and devs wont get a bit of the money it then comes down to if I want too


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## Rizsparky (Jan 9, 2013)

Imo, never. If your'e caught then its your responsibility to handle the consequences.


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## SuzieJoeBob (Jan 9, 2013)

porkiewpyne said:


> ^Technically it is. There are laws (at least here in Aus) which limits you to photocopying max 10% of a book or something along those lines. Which is fair imho.
> 
> Looking through the other comments, I find it funny how some people take it as their sworn duty to lead the crusade against the evils of making large sums of money. If you don't agree to a company's policy, you boycott it. Not steal from it. Two wrongs don't make a right (Yes I know I am pushing it). If their devious money-making schemes are a "crime" you do not commit another crime to set it straight. Just sayin'.
> 
> Now where did I put my Ferrari which I took from them evil people who charge too much for a four-wheeled vehicle?


Okay, my college distributes printed versions of the online textbooks for free, yet they may or may not have received permission from the company/author who made it. When I say "printed", I really mean that the online books are sent to a printer, are printed out, put in order, and then bound with that plastic binding ring. Is that not wrong??? After all, they aren't making money from it.

Also, if any one person here made a product and so much as one copy was pirated, they would be bitching up a f***ing storm up in here!!!


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## Valwin (Jan 9, 2013)

Osha said:


> I wouldn't shell out 60 bucks in a game either, especially when you know the production cost is at least two times lower.


 
so whats if production cost are cheaper they need to make money why would they make games that will earn them nothing  ?


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## Originality (Jan 9, 2013)

I skipped everything after page 1 because I know people will have already said anything I could say. I'll just drop my opinion and never look back.

I consider myself a good pirate. I pirate either because the game is unobtainable any other way (e.g. Japanese only release), or because I'm undecided if I want to buy it or not. If I really like the game then I'll buy it, like with the Star Ocean series.
Do I care what the rest of the world thinks of me? No - I stick to what I think is right.


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## SuzieJoeBob (Jan 9, 2013)

ImNotSkilled said:


> Very true. Their motto is "Try before you buy!"
> 
> 
> That's silly. Some people are surprisingly too lazy to pirate on their own!


Actually, GameFly is a contradiction, just like Starburst; you get to play a videogame without having to buy it, but you are still paying for the ability to do so. Also, the companies that give GameFly permission to distribute their games *do* make money from the rentals, as there is a contractual obligation by GameFly to give Company A x% of the profit made off of the game's rental, so it isn't piracy.

It _*is*_ piracy, though, if the GameFly member makes a backup copy and doesn't delete it after sending the game back. Also, performing a "data install" (PSP games) or installing on-disc content to the harddrive (such as the XBOX 360, where the game installs specific data to speed up a game's loading times) and does not remove said data after returning the game. Lastly, if said data is only available on a specific version of the game (collector's edition / limited edition), most notably the "exclusive add-on content", and said data isn't removed, yet again this is piracy. Though it isn't piracy on the GameFly member's end, it is illegal to rent out the rental without legal permission from GameFly and the company that made the game. Another interesting thing to mention is that you are still legally responsible for any/all illegal backups made by anyone in possession of the game(s), so long as you are the one who is still marked as the one to whom the game was rented out to. Think of a public library; as long as the library's records say that you are currently renting the book, you are still held responsible for a book being in worse condition, even if your friend was the one who ruined it.


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## 3bbb7 (Jan 9, 2013)

I dont pirate much anymore but sometimes like when I want to play a ds game I never got to play. why go spend $20 on a game that is almost 7 or 8 years old or whatever. (wow its been nearly 9 years since the original ds release thats crazy) 
Honestly all ds games suck, so why waste money on games that have little effort put into them? Some games were great like metroid prime hunters and mario kart ds, but some were just horrible. Like metroid ran fast and the graphics were great for a handheld console. It was one of the FIRST ds games and its still better than 90% of the DS fps's. (they all look horrible too and run slower...) companies wernt using the full ds capabilities. THey just wanted money for a poorly made game, so why support them?

I also buy indie games, i wil never pirate them. And i buy everything on steam


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## the_randomizer (Jan 9, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> Yes it is.


So is Gamestop, they have a system that can be easily abused. You buy a used game and are given a two week grace period to return it for a full refund.

1) Buy used game and play it
2) Return to Gamestop within two weeks
3) ????
4) Profit!

Why should we give second hand shops money if they're committing piracy?


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## Deferet (Jan 9, 2013)

The people who put in the work on the actual games usually don't get paid more when a game does good, they make either an hourly wage or a salary, and most times these workers are hired on a contract for 1 or more projects.  I myself have worked on a couple games and the only extra money I got was for overtime.  I myself pirated a couple of these games myself and own no intellectual part of any of these games.

And I believe that copyright is up to 75 years, I may be wrong, but when I was in school I think that's what it was and Disney was lobbying to get it changed to 100 years, again, not 100% sure.  But I also remember hearing (when I worked at EB Games) that the original NES was out of copyright hence the reproductions you can find at the mall different copyright? I don't know.

This is in no way saying pirating is ok, but there's so much grey area you can argue for.


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## Mantis41 (Jan 9, 2013)

I thought we all decided that piracy wasn't wide spread enough to have any financial effect whatsoever. I can't be bothered digging up the old threads to support this.

Not that this makes it justifiable it just nullifies the I went bankrupt because of piracy comments and turns it into I went bankrupt due to excessive competition, low market and shit games.


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## Smuff (Jan 9, 2013)

I love these threads too.

Pirate and be damned I say!
I just borrowed a genuine copy of Far Cry 3 from a friend and played it through without ever coughing up 1 red cent to the developers. How is this any different in the only way that matters (the cash in the developers pockets) from me downloading a copy and playing it ? One scenario is overlooked, the other is evil incarnate that will destroy the world.

In the 70's they told us "home taping is killing music!" - How's that worked out for you ?

PS. Don't look at my Kindle or iPod ffs


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## Fishaman P (Jan 9, 2013)

1) Try before you buy.  Can't be a ridiculous amount of time; 1 month is more than enough most of the time.
2) Your legally-purchased official game doesn't work anymore (cracks, scratches, age, etc.)
3) You want to emulate the game.
4) It's a different region or version of a legally-purchased, official game you own.

5) You're dirt-poor and addicted to video games.


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## Deleted-236924 (Jan 9, 2013)

SuzieJoeBob said:


> (except for the last one, depending on your viewpoint).
> 
> [...]
> 
> 4) I just down-right feel that the company doesn't deserve it. For me, this is mainly Nintendo with Mario Bros. It's the same thing over and over again, using the same programs/engines used to make the previous one. All they did was rearrange a few things.


 
Yup, you're right. About that first statement, that is.

If you feel that the company doesn't deserve your money for their game due to it being the same game over and over again, then why, tell me, why do you feel the game is worth pirating then?


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## Sychophantom (Jan 9, 2013)

guyver2k said:


> Sry guys if this was a sensitive subject. I actually thought I was starting some type of intelligent debate.


 

Intelligent debate, on the internet?

Does not compute.


All jokes aside, I've been posting about how it is basically illegal to do what most buy flashcarts for and hack their machines to do. Not that I think I'm some moral avenger or want people to stop, but mostly because I find the subject fascinating, and also find how people justify breaking laws equally fascinating.

Everything can be justified if you think hard enough about it. It might not make sense to anyone else, but everyone is a special and unique snowflake, with the exception of Taylor Swift fans. Those fuckers can go to hell.

To a small game company, that probably loss of a sale from a pirate's actions might hurt enough to not make another game. Or, maybe make that dev not half-ass the next game (hear that, Renegade Kid?). OR maybe they'll insist on being called Betty and live off of nothing but pudding for a few years. Who knows?

To a medium-sized company, it might sting a bit, but the paying customers will keep them in snack cakes and beer until they put out the next game. Maybe if enough people pirate, they may need to switch to a cheaper beer. Again, who knows?

To a company like Activision or EA or Capcom, they'll make up for it via DLC (On disc already, right Capcom?) and get on with trying to squeeze every drop of milk out of whatever cash cow they have at the moment. Once in a while they might say "Oh, piracy hurts. Now bend over, because we have more map packs to sell". It has an effect, but the CEO doesn't feel it. Maybe they fire the guy in the mail room so profits still look as good.


The result? Those small time devs might not stick around. The soul-suckers at the large corporations put out Call of Duty XXXVIII with map packs that cost more than the game, and people wank all over it because they never see anything better.

Or, the small timers become the big timers (like Mojang), and milk their cash cows too.

Piracy will go on either way. If you like a game enough, throw a few bucks toward it. Maybe you'll get better games, or maybe you won't.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 9, 2013)

Stop with this "is it ok to get pirated games" bs.... Really... I play almost only pirated games... If company wants me to buy its game put it on a reasonable price.... 50$ is not a price for a game...  Movie industries create movies with budgets of million dollars and I can enjoy it with 8$ on my cinema... Why the heck do i have to pay 50$ to get a game? Piracy is not the problem of game industry... High prices is... Same thing happened with music industry.... and now they cant sell cds..... Oh and if i didnt play pirated games there was no chance i would pay 50$ to get them... So in the end they dont lose money  I just play them pirated instead of not playing them at all... like the majority of guys do  Steam seems to have gotten the point though... Bought the new counter strike for 5.50$ That I call a normal price 
This is the fact about piracy and nothing else so don't bother wasting your time with the moral aspect of it or when it is ok or not. It is a fact of industry... You can't fight it. You just accept it


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## Rydian (Jan 9, 2013)

Sychophantom said:


> and also find how people justify breaking laws equally fascinating.


If all laws were just and agreed with by the majority of the people, amendments and repeals wouldn't have much of a job, eh?



Sychophantom said:


> To a small game company, that probably loss of a sale from a pirate's actions might hurt enough to not make another game. Or, maybe make that dev not half-ass the next game (hear that, Renegade Kid?).


The whole "lost sale" thing is total bullshit.

Let's say I go to a friend's house to watch The Hobbit with them instead of buying my own copy.  Lost sale, industry is hurt?
Let's say I buy a copy of a game used instead of from Gamestop.  Lost sale, industry loses money _somehow_?

Same deals as piracy, right?  You're getting to experience the product without giving money to the original company.  So if piracy "harms" businesses, so does sharing a game or movie with friends/family.

But no, that's crap.  If we could all go around claiming people are bad for NOT doing things they never agreed to do in the first place (and choosing alternatives instead), I could go around suing for blowjobs 24/7. 



Sychophantom said:


> OR maybe they'll insist on being called Betty


Kung Pow?


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## Sychophantom (Jan 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> The whole "lost sale" thing is total bullshit.
> 
> Let's say I go to a friend's house to watch The Hobbit with them instead of buying my own copy. Lost sale, industry is hurt?
> Let's say I buy a copy of a game used instead of from Gamestop. Lost sale, industry loses money _somehow_?
> ...


 
I'd sue for a blowjob. But lawyers, man.....they'd want half of that blowjob. No lawyer deserves that.

Rent, play over a friend's house, borrow from a library.....that isn't a lost sale. SOMEONE bought the game/movie/music/book/ocelot. In some cases of piracy, still, someone bought the item, usually (I knew a few Gamestop employees who would rip games while at work and share with friends).

That whole used game thing is an old arguement. I like used games. I see buying a used game as supporting a local business. (I rarely buy used games from Gamestop or national chains. Local places, yes, I like supporting local places). I know devs get jack shit from that, but it keeps a roof over the head of someone I consider a friend. That's fine by me.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 9, 2013)

Rather than edit, I'll just continue.

How many times after borrowing a game do you buy it? I've done that. In that case, I'd cay borrowing helped. I know, I'm not everyone, and some would just pirate. Can't speak for them.

I think piracy shouldn't be the major thing devs need to worry about. Making a better game should be number one.


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## Rydian (Jan 9, 2013)

Sychophantom said:


> I'd sue for a blowjob. But lawyers, man.....they'd want half of that blowjob. No lawyer deserves that.
> 
> Rent, play over a friend's house, borrow from a library.....that isn't a lost sale. SOMEONE bought the game/movie/music/book/ocelot. In some cases of piracy, still, someone bought the item, usually (I knew a few Gamestop employees who would rip games while at work and share with friends).
> 
> That whole used game thing is an old arguement. I like used games. I see buying a used game as supporting a local business. (I rarely buy used games from Gamestop or national chains. Local places, yes, I like supporting local places). I know devs get jack shit from that, but it keeps a roof over the head of someone I consider a friend. That's fine by me.


My concern is _the idea that the original company is harmed_ whenever people pirate.  Nothing happens to the original company or it's assets.



Sychophantom said:


> I think piracy shouldn't be the major thing devs need to worry about. Making a better game should be number one.


The product _and service_ should be the focus, yes.  If you can give a better experience than the pirates, people will be encouraged to buy instead of pirating.

This is why DRM (supposed to prevent piracy) can kill games...
http://www.amazon.com/Spore-Mac/product-reviews/B000FKBCX4

And also why Steam (an alternative to piracy) is making a killing.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/10/25/gabe-newell-on-piracy-and-steams-success-in-russia/


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## Mantis41 (Jan 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> And also why Steam (an alternative to piracy) is making a killing.
> http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/10/25/gabe-newell-on-piracy-and-steams-success-in-russia/


 
I wonder how many of the Russian sales can be attributed to the dlc key for sale sites. I purchased BL2 and the season pass via this method. Paid less than half the price for the RU version.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> My concern is _the idea that the original company is harmed_ whenever people pirate. Nothing happens to the original company or it's assets.


 
I suppose if you want to look at it in a more tangible way that doesn't make sense, it might be like working for McDonald's and not being paid because there are people across the street eating burgers not made in your store.

Your store didn't lose a sale, but dammit, someone is eating a burger you didn't sell them. Must be burger piracy! Your business is doomed!

I worked a long day today without much caffeine. Apologies.


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## kristianity77 (Jan 9, 2013)

Pirating for me is OK as its always on a system Id never have bought anyway. I have a totally legit 360 with about 80 odd games collected over the past 5 years. I also had a totally legit PS2 for the generation prior to that with countless games.

However, I also have a PSP full to the brim with ISOs and I justify this by the fact that if i had to shell out £100 for one and £25 quid a game when they were in fashion, id never have purchased one. It was the same with the DS. I had one of them, complete with Flash Card. Had it not been for that id never have gotten one. So whose sales am i directly affecting? No ones. If i had bought one or not, it wouldnt stop the games or the hardware being readily available anywhere.

I pay for a system i want, and pirate others for which i only have a passing interest


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## Sephtenshi (Jan 9, 2013)

Where I am from 3DS games cost around U$70,00 (using paper mario as an example). I'm not saying that makes it right to pirate and I honestly buy most (if not all) my favorite games for all my consoles (which are also all bought at official retailers, and there are A LOT of unofficial ones in my country). But most people I know only pirate because they can't afford it and honestly? Life's too short. If you want to see a movie and can't buy it? Downloading it is not so bad. It's not like marvel got fu**ing poor because of all the avengers downloads... I'm also pretty sure Satoru Iwata doesn't cry at night because of all the ilegal Nintendo games downloads.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 9, 2013)

Pirating is never okay. There's no reason not to buy it. People do it anyways, like downloading music.


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## Valwin (Jan 9, 2013)

Zetta_x said:


> As long as <5% people pirate, I say it's healthy for the gaming economy.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> As long as <5% people steal, I say it's healthy for the  economy.


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## Rydian (Jan 9, 2013)

Sychophantom said:


> I suppose if you want to look at it in a more tangible way that doesn't make sense, it might be like working for McDonald's and not being paid because there are people across the street eating burgers not made in your store.
> 
> Your store didn't lose a sale, but dammit, someone is eating a burger you didn't sell them. Must be burger piracy! Your business is doomed!
> 
> I worked a long day today without much caffeine. Apologies.


When you work for McDonald's, you're under an agreement that you get paid no matter the sales... that's because you're on salary, not commission.

If, however, you were in a job where you get paid on commission, customers getting their stuff from other places would mean a lack of sales, and thus money, for you.  A lack of it, not a loss of it (as it's not there to begin with).

But that gets into the whole "can we sue somebody for giving ANOTHER guy a blowjob instead of me?" thing again.


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## osaka35 (Jan 9, 2013)

Deferet said:


> And I believe that copyright is up to 75 years, I may be wrong, but when I was in school I think that's what it was and Disney was lobbying to get it changed to 100 years, again, not 100% sure. But I also remember hearing (when I worked at EB Games) that the original NES was out of copyright hence the reproductions you can find at the mall different copyright? I don't know.


 
I'm not sure of the specifics, but another thing to mention is that there is the global laws on copyright, the US copyright laws, the Japanese copyright laws, and every other countries' unique copyright laws. Perhaps the Japanese copyright expired, but the US is going strong (as I stated previously, no copyright after mickey mouse will have expired)? Or maybe Nintendo just sold partial rights to other companies to reproduce the NES hardware or something.

Could be another reason for region locking, if you take into account the various copyright laws around the world. Stronger copyright protection in particular countries. *shrugs* or maybe not. Conjecture is fun.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 9, 2013)

kristianity77 said:


> Pirating for me is OK as its always on a system Id never have bought anyway. I have a totally legit 360 with about 80 odd games collected over the past 5 years. I also had a totally legit PS2 for the generation prior to that with countless games.
> 
> However, I also have a PSP full to the brim with ISOs and I justify this by the fact that if i had to shell out £100 for one and £25 quid a game when they were in fashion, id never have purchased one. It was the same with the DS. I had one of them, complete with Flash Card. Had it not been for that id never have gotten one. So whose sales am i directly affecting? No ones. If i had bought one or not, it wouldnt stop the games or the hardware being readily available anywhere.
> 
> I pay for a system i want, and pirate others for which i only have a passing interest


 
That username, and that post.....

Don't know if really ironic, really fitting, or some mix in between.


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## Slave (Jan 9, 2013)

Pirating is perfectly OK and in fact should be Encouraged (to show the Distributors that we want the said pirated products), *if you answer NO to the 3 following Questions:*


Is the said product Available in your country? (No 'cuz that game/DVD isnt out in america... for example)
If you'd import it online from another country would you be able to use the said product? (no 'cuz my console/DVD player is fu¢#!ng region locked)
Is said product planned to be available in a near future and you'd be willing to wait a bit? (no 'cuz the fucking game/Movie is only released in europe/japan and the company doesnt plan on releasing it state side due to lack of popularity or the fact that only a minority of the population knows about it... like true fans of whatever movie/game)
In those cases I believe yes pirating should be encouraged... to hell with it... I WANT that game/movie, but it's not out here, they dont plan to release it here, and I cant buy it to play it here... then pirating is my only option to enjoy it.

ie: The second the 3DS gets hacked, and we can play imported region locked game, I'm friggin' downloading the One PIece 3DS title available in Europe... dont care if the game aint too good according to reviews, I'm a fan of one piece, the game is translated but only released in europe... but I cant play it here... SCREW the ppl that says pirating is bad. If they didnt want their game to be pirated, they should've released it here where I would've bought it.

iie: same thing with movies... I love foreign movies, to name a specific movie, I would TOTALLY Buy both NEW KIDS TURBO/NITRO movies... but they will NEVER come state side, 'Cuz thats a Norwegian local movie production... Dafuq would a Canadian know about them movies? Well I downloaded them, watched, loved the movies, and I would like to buy them... but aint no way in hell it'll ever be available here... so I burned them fu¢#ers up on DVD and pass it around to everyone that want a good crazy laugh.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 9, 2013)

Slave said:


> Pirating is perfectly OK and in fact should be Encouraged (to show the Distributors that we want the said pirated products), if you answer NO to the 3 following Questions:
> 
> 
> Is the said product Available in your country? (No 'cuz that game/DVD isnt out in america... for example)
> ...


 
Except, you can import a European 3DS and the game, making that piracy argument invalid if money was no issue. I have a DVD player that isn't region locked I bought for 30 bucks at Wal-mart. I can buy import DVDs and play them.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 9, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Stop with this "is it ok to get pirated games" bs.... Really... I play almost only pirated games... If company wants me to buy its game put it on a reasonable price.... 50$ is not a price for a game... Movie industries create movies with budgets of million dollars and I can enjoy it with 8$ on my cinema... Why the heck do i have to pay 50$ to get a game? Piracy is not the problem of game industry... High prices is... Same thing happened with music industry.... and now they cant sell cds..... Oh and if i didnt play pirated games there was no chance i would pay 50$ to get them... So in the end they dont lose money  I just play them pirated instead of not playing them at all... like the majority of guys do  Steam seems to have gotten the point though... Bought the new counter strike for 5.50$ That I call a normal price
> This is the fact about piracy and nothing else so don't bother wasting your time with the moral aspect of it or when it is ok or not. It is a fact of industry... You can't fight it. You just accept it


 
Right...  Because once you pay that $8 at the cinema you can go back and watch that movie as often as you want.  Terrible analogy...

On that topic, part of the problem comes from market saturation (wayyyy too many games pushed out).  There were like 790 total NES games released (including all regions) in the 10 or so years before the system was discontinued.  The Xbox 360 has over well over 900 games over the course of the 7 1/2 years it's been around.  The price of games has remained fairly constant, while the amount of content and work put into them has increased exponentially.  Super Mario Bros. 3 was $50 dollars at release.  Unless my inflation calculator is on the fritz, that works out to $91.88 in today's dollar...

Another part of the problem comes from gamers and their lack of an attention span.  Remember how we used to be able to play Super Mario Bros. or The Legend of Zelda (or Pokemon for those who are into that...) over and over and over and be happy?  Now if people finish a game at all they're likely to never touch it again.  So gamers bitch about a lack of content when they're the ones rushing through and neglecting their games.


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## xwatchmanx (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Oh god not this thread again.
> 
> Just saying these never end well.


Mine did. 

But sheesh, this is like the third one made.


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## gamefan5 (Jan 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> My concern is _the idea that the original company is harmed_ whenever people pirate. Nothing happens to the original company or it's assets.
> 
> The product _and service_ should be the focus, yes. If you can give a better experience than the pirates, people will be encouraged to buy instead of pirating.
> 
> ...


I don't really understand this whole DRM thing and how it can affect game quality. Could you explain it to me?


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## Slave (Jan 9, 2013)

Point Taken, maybe I didnt have the best examples... lol

But yes Money will always be an issue... why would I have to buy again another platform that I already own to play a single game? You'd dish out +200$ to buy a foreign region console to play only one game? The reality of the market and people is that to stop me from importing a console and said game is purely economic... no I dont have the money for a second console I already own one... why would I need to buy it again just because of a tiny setting difference that prevents me from playing a game while the other completely identical console that come from another country does. If distributors isn’t making their products legally available, affordable, and on a worldwide basis, they are to blame when people hit torrent websites and download it for free. Note that this isn’t advocacy of piracy—it’s the reality of the market we find ourselves in.

Piracy offers a GRADE A++ services which is too attracting & easy to ppl... you want it? Piracy got it "right here, right now & free...  just don't ask where I got it".  

I kinda feel it's like a Pawn Shop... they got good stuff, cheap, but I morally question where it comes from originally... lol


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## Slave (Jan 9, 2013)

gamefan5 said:


> I don't really understand this whole DRM thing and how it can affect game quality. Could you explain it to me?


 
Simple:

You Buy a game... original in a store. Install on your PC, boot the game... Oh wait... before booting the game, you need to register the game on the internet... no problem... log in the net, register the game... boot the game again... play the game a bit... Oh wait, Either you loose your internet connection, or the game's company server goes down... something you have no control over... and now you cannot play your game anymore... EVEN THOUGH your game has NOTHING to do with online gaming... its a single player... but because you are not on the internet, or because the game's company servers are down, your game doesnt work because it cannot authentify itself to the game server. You cant play your game until the net is back or the servers are back... but unfortunately... you wanted to play right now, its your only free time... Bought a game, cant play.

Pirated games: install game... play... no more problems.

Which one is more appealing?


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 9, 2013)

Slave said:


> Simple:
> 
> You Buy a game... original in a store. Install on your PC, boot the game... Oh wait... before booting the game, you need to register the game on the internet... no problem... log in the net, register the game... boot the game again... play the game a bit... Oh wait, Either you loose your internet connection, or the game's company server goes down... something you have no control over... and now you cannot play your game anymore... EVEN THOUGH your game has NOTHING to do with online gaming... its a single player... but because you are not on the internet, or because the game's company servers are down, your game doesnt work because it cannot authentify itself to the game server. You cant play your game until the net is back or the servers are back... but unfortunately... you wanted to play right now, its your only free time... Bought a game, cant play.
> 
> ...


 
I think I'll just game on a console and not have to worry about it at all.


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## cdoty (Jan 9, 2013)

I would say when the product is no longer available for sale and cannot be reasonably purchased (rare games as an example), or the game was never released and has very little chance of seeing a release (cancelled games for older systems).

I think this comes down to the time it takes something to become public domain. In the past, 75 years for a book was somewhat reasonable; but games and their technology become obsolete a lot quicker. I think the IP should be retained for 75 years, but the software should become public domain 5-10 years after the system is no longer sold commercially or 5-10 years after the release whichever comes first. This prevents a company from claiming the PC is still around, or Gamecube games can still be played on the Wii, etc.

And, continuing to babble on, I always felt security features that prevent using backups should be required to be deactivated at some point in the future. Sony should have been required to make a way for non-protected software to run on the original Playstation after it was dead; since it would be impossible to purchase a replacement copy of any game.



wrettcaughn said:


> I think I'll just game on a console and not have to worry about it at all.


Don't buy any digital games or DLC.


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## Rydian (Jan 9, 2013)

gamefan5 said:


> I don't really understand this whole DRM thing and how it can affect game quality. Could you explain it to me?


DRM refers to technologies used to restrict how software can be used unless certain conditions are met.  The general idea is to only let paying customers use the software, but... DRM tends to break.  A lot.


In the case of Spore, one DRM aspect it has was that it would only allow five installs.  Any more and it assumed you were pirating.  People who had to reinstall Windows or who moved computers would run into that issue, after the fifth install the game would refuse to play.  Spore's DRM has been lightened because of the terrible reputation it got (but the damage was already done).


Another example is the DRM that Assassin's Creed III (PC version) originally came with.  Originally it required an internet connection _at all times_ in order to make sure you weren't pirating it, meaning if your internet was out (service outage, you were on a laptop on the plane, you just moved and the internet hadn't been installed, you lived in the mountains where normal 'net services didn't reach, etc.) you couldn't play the game.  Also if your 'net dropped out during the game, it would stop (without saving your progress, from what I've read).


And then there's the Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 or whatever game, which had DRM that actually broke and stopped people who bought it online from playing it... until somebody in the company's support site actually redistributed a crack they got off a piracy/torrent site so that customers could play.
http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/
(Source to make sure you believe me. XD)


Then there was Bioshock's DRM that put an activation limit in... except even worse than Spore, as it needed to be activated _per user account on each PC_, meaning a single PC could use up all the activations for a single install.

In these example cases (and with pretty much every DRM scheme ever), *only the people who bought the game had to deal with it*, because the pirated versions had the DRM cracked/removed (often within days!)... which made piracy more attractive.  It was actually EASIER to pirate then to buy the retail version (and some people had to download a pirated version just to play), which is ridiculous.  In some cases, DRM actually contributes to more piracy than it stops, which goes to show how broken it is.

A lot of the DRM mentioned here has been removed, and some companies have sworn off of most typed of DRM because they realized _it turns paying customers into pirates, instead of the other way around_.


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## Slave (Jan 9, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> I think I'll just game on a console and not have to worry about it at all.


This is one of the thing to fight against Piracy, remember UBISOFT a while ago didnt want to make Games for PC anymore due to extreme piracy... there is much less piracy on console... ppl buy the games... (there are exceptions still) but on console there is much less piracy compared to PC. But still DRMs on consoles are not to the game makers to worry about, the console takes care of it. While on PC, if you make a game, its your business to try to make sure it wont be pirated... so it's less appealing.

On a brighter side, Ubisoft resumed making games for PC due to incredible demands from fans. The way they fight piracy is that they releases PC version later than console... that way those that Cant wait to play the game will buy it on consoles... making sales... those that really want it on PC will wait a few weeks... that way when the PC pirated copies comes out, it's less appealing since the game has been out already a few weeks on consoles. Usually pirated copies are appealing when the game is not out yet or barely out... that way it's "0day" and feel like an exclusivity.


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## gamefan5 (Jan 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> DRM refers to technologies used to restrict how software can be used unless certain conditions are met. The general idea is to only let paying customers use the software, but... DRM tends to break. A lot.
> 
> 
> In the case of Spore, one DRM aspect it has was that it would only allow five installs. Any more and it assumed you were pirating. People who had to reinstall Windows or who moved computers would run into that issue, after the fifth install the game would refuse to play. Spore's DRM has been lightened because of the terrible reputation it got (but the damage was already done).
> ...


Thank you. Now I understand completely. XD


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## LockeCole_101629 (Jan 9, 2013)

Pirating is never OK
and yes $60 is expensive
to whoever say it isn't, well be grateful you have a good life.
You won't believe how much people out there saving every single penny just to get cheaper stuff (specially parents and their daily expenses)

if you focus on games.
Well, sometimes I just consider it as a full version DEMO (with limitation on Online services)

but then again, I believe if it's good stuff people WILL buy it if they CAN afford it.
Literally no one willing to buy shit, even if it's free.

1st pirates? he makes copy of fish & bread.


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## Sicklyboy (Jan 9, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Right... Because once you pay that $8 at the cinema you can go back and watch that movie as often as you want. Terrible analogy...


 
No, but say you wait for a movie to be released on disk/digital.  Most movies these days, and I'm just going to go by DVD price for now since they tend to be a little more consistent than Bluray prices, anywhere from $16.99-$19.99 for the movie, save for some odd-one-out cases.  So $20, for a movie with a multi million dollar budget, and you can watch and enjoy it as many times as you want until your DVD player takes a shit or your disk doesn't read anymore.

Now, wait two months or so after that movie comes out, and a lot of times, the prices drop drastically.  Working electronics retail at a big box chain store, I see many of those $16-$20 movies drop to $8-$12 after being on the shelves for a month or two and selling pretty steadily.

So, ignoring the fact that games are (for some reason) priced ridiculously higher, why do some games NEVER drop in price?  Take almost all of the sports games - Madden 13, NBA 2K13, NCAA 13, etc, those have been out for a WHILE and they're STILL $59.99.  There's a lot of games that I see not go on a price drop, except for a sale here or there, until the next one in the series comes out.  Madden 13 will stay $60 until Madden 14 comes out, just like Madden 12 did.

No, piracy isn't okay, really.  I don't think anyone should benefit or get someone elses work for free without the creator's consent.  However, on old consoles where games are no longer made (anything previous gen and back, for the most part), I can see piracy as pretty much acceptable.  And for current gen stuff, it's gonna happen anyway.  Except for computer games (Steam is so easy)(software, though...) and the 3DS (because there isn't an alternative yet), for which I am completely legit, I pirate to different degrees for every other console.  And most older consoles, where games were only a few Mb or less, I have quite a few complete ROM libraries.  I'm not gonna lie.

I support indie stuff whenever I can though.  THOSE guys need the money if they're gonna keep doing what they're doing.  That's where one potentially lost sale can actually hurt.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 9, 2013)

PIRATE ALL THE WAY!!!!!! Whoever wants to pay 50$ for a 3ds game feel free to do it... once 3ds is hacked, roms will be the only thing my 3ds will play... like my PC that plays almost only downloaded games  Oh, and i am not even sorry  Those companies wont build their billions with my money  let them build them with yours


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## Rydian (Jan 9, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> PIRATE ALL THE WAY!!!!!! Whoever wants to pay 50$ for a 3ds game feel free to do it... once 3ds is hacked, roms will be the only thing my 3ds will play... like my PC that plays almost only downloaded games  Oh, and i am not even sorry  Those companies wont build their billions with my money  let them build them with yours


Actually lots of game companies have gone out of business, or even declared bankruptcy.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 9, 2013)

I am 100% sure that the cause of it isn't piracy  there is so much competition out there... If your games aren't good u are done... and honestly... small time developers don't stand much of a chance against EA or Ubi or Blizzard etc etc etc etc....


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## McHaggis (Jan 9, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I love how gamers today are so self entitled that they think paying $60 for a game is "ridiculous". It's a hobby, grow up.


I think paying £55 for a game is ridiculous, but I don't necessarily always pirate them.  Sometimes I, you know, wait for them to drop in price.  I don't think I'm self entitled, I just have more patience and sense than other gamers not to throw my money away on buying a game that's going to be significantly cheaper in a few weeks.


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## xist (Jan 9, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> PIRATE ALL THE WAY!!!!!! Whoever wants to pay 50$ for a 3ds game feel free to do it... once 3ds is hacked, roms will be the only thing my 3ds will play... like my PC that plays almost only downloaded games  Oh, and i am not even sorry  Those companies wont build their billions with my money  let them build them with yours


 
Clover Studios - made superb games (or at the very least good) and still went tits up. Don't want just casual games to be dominating? You need to put some money into the things you do want or the future will end up homogeneous and casual.


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## Nah3DS (Jan 9, 2013)

a DS game (Pkmn Black 2) costs around U$S85 here
WiiSports costs U$S90 
and some games are impossible to find (Xenoblade, Last Story, etc)

So I say... if you had the bad luck of being born in south america. Live like a fucking pirate!!!


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 9, 2013)

so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???


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## Rydian (Jan 9, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???


You could always not play them.  Lots of people have never played a videogame in their life and are just fine.


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## McHaggis (Jan 10, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> So, ignoring the fact that games are (for some reason) priced ridiculously higher, why do some games NEVER drop in price? Take almost all of the sports games - Madden 13, NBA 2K13, NCAA 13, etc, those have been out for a WHILE and they're STILL $59.99. There's a lot of games that I see not go on a price drop, except for a sale here or there, until the next one in the series comes out. Madden 13 will stay $60 until Madden 14 comes out, just like Madden 12 did.


You see this happen all the time with Nintendo 1st party releases.  Take Super Mario 3D Land and Mario Kart 7, both available for over a year and both still priced at full MSRP in most high street shops.  Granted, you can get a cheaper price if you shop around, but they don't see the same price cuts as games from 3rd party developers.  Hell, New Super Mario Bros for the DS is still £29.99 in some high street shops (like HMV), and that's a previous gen console.


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## xist (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???


 
You said PIRATE ALL THE WAY. That implies you would never support the games industry beyond an initial hardware purchase (which doesn't support the developers of the games you want).

You're immensely shortsighted (or just like all the games popular to the masses) if you think that having no input in the games industry is going to help get the games you like made. Think of it as a vote.....would you abstain from having your say?


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> so if i want to play say 20-30 games per year i have to give 1000 to 1500 dollars? are u all serious???


 
Yes. The way I see it, if you're not willing to pay, then you aren't willing to play. While most pirates on this site would pay, but seeing as how you aren't, then you don't need to be playing them.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 10, 2013)

Rydian said:


> DRM refers to technologies used to restrict how software can be used unless certain conditions are met. The general idea is to only let paying customers use the software, but... DRM tends to break. A lot.
> 
> 
> In the case of Spore, one DRM aspect it has was that it would only allow five installs. Any more and it assumed you were pirating. People who had to reinstall Windows or who moved computers would run into that issue, after the fifth install the game would refuse to play. Spore's DRM has been lightened because of the terrible reputation it got (but the damage was already done).
> ...


 

Splinter Cell Chaos Theory was another infamous example of bad DRM. Back in the day, Ubisoft wanted to use something called Starforce, which was a disc verification process to make sure your copy was legit. The problem? It only worked on Windows XP, but not Vista, 7, etc, and it installed rootkits on your system. Not only that, but you couldn't remove it unless you hacked the registry, plus their Starforce update pack was a joke, it was supposed to remove it, but never did. So you know what I did? I installed the no-DVD patch that removed the disc protection, the very thing Ubisoft wanted to prevent people from doing. I, a legitimate customer, had to resort to something illegal to play a legally purchased game. Ironic? Yes, but quite amusing too. DRM hurts pirates to an extent, but hurts legit consumers as well, which often cause them to resort to illicit activity to use legally purchased goods. Gotta love the paradoxical piracy issues.

Frankly, I don't give a f**k about DRM and will do everything I can to remove said Digital Restriction Management from my legitimately obtained goods. I don't care what the DMCA states about circumventing protection measures, I don't care what they say about making personal backups for myself, and I don't care what they say about only having the license to play the game or console as opposed to actually "owning". What I do with my goods is my business. It's legal to jailbreak iPhones, but not consoles? Talk about being hypocritical. Bloody sods.

If they don't like it, that's just to f***ing bad.


----------



## SuzieJoeBob (Jan 10, 2013)

Pingouin7 said:


> Yup, you're right. About that first statement, that is.
> 
> If you feel that the company doesn't deserve your money for their game due to it being the same game over and over again, then why, tell me, why do you feel the game is worth pirating then?


You have a valid point, and you did poke a hole in my train of thought, but it is to be fair and make a judgement based on my actual play experience. I not just what I saw in videos of it. If I were to play the original Mario Bros (NES) and say it is exactly the same as the one for the Wii U, then I would only be half correct; both games utilize the same characters and general gaming layout, but a lot has been added/incorporated since. For the NDS version, the second screen made the experience differ from the other console's version, just as the Wii's multiplayer and NDS's multiplayer had a similar structure, yet different environment. I found the Wii U's version enjoyable and challenging, yet found the NDS's version rather easy and boring.

When it comes down to being "worth pirating", you have to consider that pirating is "free" when only considering the price you pay for the game, not including the electric consumed. Also, just because the company doesn't deserve my money doesn't necessarily mean their games on a whole suck. Every company doesn't usually stick with one franchise; Nintendo also has Legend of Zelda, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Donkey Kong, Smash Bros, Pikmin, and others. I know people who feel Sony doesn't deserve money for the Uncharted series, yet is willing to fork it over for anything related to Crash Bandicoot or Spyro (non-Skylanders).


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Yes. The way I see it, if you're not willing to pay, then you aren't willing to play. While most pirates on this site would pay, but seeing as how you aren't, then you don't need to be playing them.


You see there is a problem here... The problem is that I CAN play them...  So I will... and companies can still sell their games for 50$ and I still won't buy them and i still will play them. You see in 10 years i would have saved of like 15-20k... With these money I can buy a car you know. So I will. Oh and I will still have played the games  Oh and companies can't do something about it. Do u know why? Cause piracy is a fact... like the fact that companies rip off the customers


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 10, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> No, but say you wait for a movie to be released on disk/digital. Most movies these days, and I'm just going to go by DVD price for now since they tend to be a little more consistent than Bluray prices, anywhere from $16.99-$19.99 for the movie, save for some odd-one-out cases. So $20, for a movie with a multi million dollar budget, and you can watch and enjoy it as many times as you want until your DVD player takes a shit or your disk doesn't read anymore.
> 
> Now, wait two months or so after that movie comes out, and a lot of times, the prices drop drastically. Working electronics retail at a big box chain store, I see many of those $16-$20 movies drop to $8-$12 after being on the shelves for a month or two and selling pretty steadily.
> 
> So, ignoring the fact that games are (for some reason) priced ridiculously higher, why do some games NEVER drop in price? Take almost all of the sports games - Madden 13, NBA 2K13, NCAA 13, etc, those have been out for a WHILE and they're STILL $59.99. There's a lot of games that I see not go on a price drop, except for a sale here or there, until the next one in the series comes out. Madden 13 will stay $60 until Madden 14 comes out, just like Madden 12 did.


 
There is little correlation between budget and amount of content, especially when comparing movies and video games.

For example:
Bioshock - budget $15mil - *Development 3 years* - Sales 4 mil units over all platforms - Avg. Playtime 20-25 hours

Transformers 3 - budget $270mil - Development 20 months (includes pre-production) - Total Box Office *$1,123,746,996* - DVD sales *$44,783,000* (figures for *Oct/Nov/Dec 2011* only and no bluray figures available) - Runtime 154 minutes

Movies have two main sources of income; ticket sales and dvd sales.  Games have one source of income, take longer to produce (unless we're talking about CoD or Sports games), are produced in far fewer numbers, bring in waayyyyyyy less profit (unless we're talking about CoD) and give the buyer far more content with their purchase.  3 playthroughs of Bioshock = 26 viewings of Transformers 3.  Production costs tied to dvd/bluray come from printing/packaging.  Blockbusters have already made their millions (and sometimes billions) long before a dvd release.  Low budget films have lower expectations.


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## Zetta_x (Jan 10, 2013)

I hope you are not implying that pirating and stealing physical objects are the same thing. If you do, then Jesus Christ I'll pray for you and I'm an athiest


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> There is little correlation between budget and amount of content, especially when comparing movies and video games.
> 
> For example:
> Bioshock - budget $15mil - *Development 3 years* - Sales 4 mil units over all platforms - Avg. Playtime 20-25 hours
> ...


Do you know why? Cause movie costs 8$ to watch or 15$ to buy DVD. Make games cost 8$ and i am pretty certain that they will have bigger profit than now.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> You see there is a problem here... The problem is that I CAN play them...  So I will... and companies can still sell their games for 50$ and I still won't buy them and i still will play them. You see in 10 years i would have saved of like 15-20k... With these money I can buy a car you know. So I will. Oh and I will still have played the games  Oh and companies can't do something about it. Do u know why? Cause piracy is a fact... like the fact that companies rip off the customers


 
Except what you're doing is considered illegal. So if you get caught playing their games, they can sue you so you aren't able to buy a car. Yes they rip you off, but they're doing it legally, you aren't. Again, piracy is not okay, if you aren't willing to pay for them, as I said some pirates on this site some of them do go out and buy the games, then you shouldn't be willing to play them. You seem to run a life where everything should just be given to you.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Except what you're doing is considered illegal. So if you get caught playing their games, they can sue you so you aren't able to buy a car. Yes they rip you off, but they're doing it legally, you aren't. Again, piracy is not okay, if you aren't willing to pay for them, as I said some pirates on this site some of them do go out and buy the games, then you shouldn't be willing to play them. You seem to run a life where everything should just be given to you.


Oh so it is fine if they legally rip us off but it is not fine if we illegally download their games  hehe. Nice. Guess what. I will keep playing pirated games and none will sue me .
And i work hard for my income... The fact that i play overpriced games for free doesn't mean i ask everything to be given free to me


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Oh so it is fine if they legally rip us off but it is not fine if we illegally download their games  hehe.


That generally IS the definition of legal versus illegal, yes.

You're learning a bit, keep it up!


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Oh so it is fine if they legally rip us off but it is not fine if we illegally download their games  hehe. Nice. Guess what. I will keep playing pirated games and none will sue me .
> And i work hard for my income... The fact that i play overpriced games for free doesn't mean i ask everything to be given free to me


 
Here's the thing though, they're not forcing you to pay for their game. If you don't want to pay for that game, then don't. Then you aren't getting ripped off. And how do you know none will sue you? Also who cares if you work hard for your income, you're not entitled to play video games. People like me we work hard for our income too and we still play games.

And how do you know you won't get caught?


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## the_randomizer (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Oh so it is fine if they legally rip us off but it is not fine if we illegally download their games  hehe. Nice. Guess what. I will keep playing pirated games and none will sue me .
> And i work hard for my income... The fact that i play overpriced games for free doesn't mean i ask everything to be given free to me


 
I wouldn't go around bragging about it if I were you.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Ok then u can waste your money on overpriced games and i can keep mine for cars, beers, clothes, movies etc etc etc. Cya


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Here's the thing though, they're not forcing you to pay for their game. If you don't want to pay for that game, then don't. Then you aren't getting ripped off. And how do you know none will sue you? Also who cares if you work hard for your income, you're not entitled to play video games. People like me we work hard for our income too and we still play games.
> 
> And how do you know you won't get caught?


Have you ever heard of anyone been arrested for downloading video games?


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## Isle41 (Jan 10, 2013)

I only pirated if:
-It's a game I'm not sure if I want (eg, Super Princess Peach, which I ended up buying), then after playing a few levels I'll decide whether to purchase or not
-If it's something I could never be able to get, or it's unlikey (think Gamecube Demo Discs, or limited edition X that never came in nonlimited edition form).
-If it's for an older console that I don't have and I'm interested in trying it (Say, the Atari/Commodore, not the NES)
-If it's some random rom hack and I'm interested in seeing what it is. 
-If it's a Korean version of a game I already have (importing from Korea is a *****, but I'm starting to learn how and therefore this reason is dying for an excuse for me).

I can see piracy being a legitimate option if you live somewhere where the prices are high and your income is lower (eg, South America). If not................... buy the game!


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## Valwin (Jan 10, 2013)

Zetta_x said:


> I hope you are not implying that pirating and stealing physical objects are the same thing. If you do, then Jesus Christ I'll pray for you and I'm an athiest


 
mmmm yes it is stealing is stealing just because something is digital makes it right ?


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Have you ever heard of anyone been arrested for downloading video games?


 
lmfao yes!


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> mmmm yes it is stealing is stealing just because something is digital makes it right ?


Whole America is stolen from Indians... I don't see someone giving it back to them  Me paying taxes for corrupt governments to steal the money is stealing... None is giving them back to me... and the only thing you find to complain is about downloaded games? Are you serious???? Whole Europe is a victim of financial war ATM and so many families lose their homes and money to thieves (politicians) and you still brag about downloaded video games???? Really?


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Have you ever heard of anyone been arrested for downloading video games?


Are you a troll, or did you just start using the internet yesterday?  People go to court and get sued for tons of money for piracy-related things all the time.

A member of GBAtemp, this very site, was sued by Nintendo AU for like over a million dollars for uploading New Super Mario Brothers for the Wii.
http://www.qj.net/qjnet/wii/new-super-mario-bros-wii-pirate-tells-his-story.html


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> lmfao yes!


too bad... Here in Greece haven't heard of it... They don't even arrest owners of sites that are purely forums for downloading copyrighted content and they will arrest me for downloading a game? stop being that funny.... really....


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> mmmm yes it is stealing is stealing just because something is digital makes it right ?


Piracy is not theft.  A *minute* of thought will show you that.

Theft is bad because when you steal something, you're taking it away from somebody.  This is why theft is a criminal act, it harms somebody, and you go to criminal court for it.

Piracy, on the other hand, does not take away the original _or take away anything from anybody at all_.  No damage is done, which is why it's NOT a criminal act, when you go to court for piracy you're getting sued, and it's a civil court as it's a rights issue.


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## Valwin (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Whole America is stolen from Indians... I don't see someone giving it back to them  Me paying taxes for corrupt governments to steal the money is stealing... None is giving them back to me... and the only thing you find to complain is about downloaded games? Are you serious???? Whole Europe is a victim of financial war ATM and so many families lose their homes and money to thieves (politicians) and you still brag about downloaded video games???? Really?


 
so because Americans still from indians  makes it right  to steal anything

i love how you people look for excuses why stealing is ok because HURR HURR BIG BAD government hurr yourop atm machines bla bla

if you love to steal games fine but a least say you are dont try to  look for excuses


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Poor Australians... My bro is a student there and can't stand the country......  They have super fast cars and don't even drive faster than 140kph.... LOL Then what the heck do you buy a mustang for??? to race with a skateboard????


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## Valwin (Jan 10, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Piracy is not theft. A *minute* of thought will show you that.
> 
> Theft is bad because when you steal something, you're taking it away from somebody. This is why theft is a criminal act, it harms somebody, and you go to criminal court for it.
> 
> Piracy, on the other hand, does not take away the original _or take away anything from anybody at all_. No damage is done, which is why it's NOT a criminal act, when you go to court for piracy you're getting sued, and it's a civil court as it's a rights issue.


 

WHAYRhfadfhasfjhsadf

your stealing the profit the developer put into the software


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> so because Americans still from indians makes it right to steal anything
> 
> i love how you people look for excuses why stealing is ok because HURR HURR BIG BAD government hurr yourop atm machines bla bla
> 
> if you love to steal games fine but a least say you are dont try to look for excuses


So the process you have something I click my left mouse button and enter, then we both have the same thing is stealing??? Nice


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> WHAYRhfadfhasfjhsadf
> 
> your stealing the profit the developer put into the software


No I am not... He wouldn't get my money for it either way... So i still don't steal something from them


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> WHAYRhfadfhasfjhsadf
> 
> your stealing the profit the developer put into the software


*Bullshit.*

In order for theft to happen, the object has to be there in the first place.

There is no money in the software, and pirating software does not cause anybody to lose money.  If so, then explain to me how?  Do little MAGICAL PIXIES WITH TELEPORTING LEFT ASSCHEEKS waltz into the big bank accounts of companies and steal money every time they see somebody torrent a copy of Mass Effect or something?


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## EyeZ (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> No I am not... He wouldn't get my money for it either way... So i still don't steal something from them


 
That's a valid point


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## Valwin (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> No I am not... He wouldn't get my money for it either way... So i still don't steal something from them


your stealing the damn game you enjoying the experience without monetary exchange how do i need to spell it for you if you steal fine ok but a least say your stealing


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Whole America is stolen from Indians... I don't see someone giving it back to them  Me paying taxes for corrupt governments to steal the money is stealing... None is giving them back to me... and the only thing you find to complain is about downloaded games? Are you serious???? Whole Europe is a victim of financial war ATM and so many families lose their homes and money to thieves (politicians) and you still brag about downloaded video games???? Really?


 
Are you actually pretending to be dumb or are you actually dumb? I can't tell anymore.



jimskeet2002 said:


> Poor Australians... My bro is a student there and can't stand the country......  They have super fast cars and don't even drive faster than 140kph.... LOL Then what the heck do you buy a mustang for??? to race with a skateboard????


 
Why in the hell would you want to go faster than 140 anyways? Jesus christ, there's no way in hell you're out of 6th grade.


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## Nah3DS (Jan 10, 2013)

_"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"_
_"If someone downloads copyrighted material and no one is around to realize it, does it make it illegal?"_




Spoiler:  The Answer:


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Are you actually pretending to be dumb or are you actually dumb? I can't tell anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Why in the hell would you want to go faster than 140 anyways? Jesus christ, there's no way in hell you're out of 6th grade.


For the same reason anybody wants to go faster than 140. Listen. When I buy my Yamaha R1 (1000cc race bike with top speed of 300kmh) I am buying it so I can run with it. Cause I like running  I but what would you know
Also why am i dumb? can you explain to me plz?


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## Issac (Jan 10, 2013)

I've read some of the thread (5 pages out of 8)... and I just want to chime in with my oppinion.
When is pirating okay?
Almost never! 
I do think it's alright to download an album in mp3 format, if you happen to own the Vinyl for example. Sure you can rip your own vinyl, but that's an effin' pain in the ass, so if there are mp3's online, why not?
Also, a movie that isn't sold any more, a tv series with no other option to view it (No possibility to import, etc.)... or an out of print album that you want, but can't find. 
And the last case where I think it's okay: I own Actraiser. I have the cartridge. I was bored in school, downloaded it and played it on an emulator to pass the time. Or, I own Seiken Densetsu 3 (I actually do!) and I want to play it in english. 
Apart from that. Nope. Never okay.

THIS doesn't say that I don't do it. I pirate a lot. I can, it's free. I do. I try to buy as many games I can, I want to support sometimes. But I'm poor as hell right now. Not any kind of "justification", but that is why I mostly buy games for un-hacked consoles and pirate the rest right now.


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> your stealing the damn game


*Bullshit.  Piracy is not theft, EVEN US LAW SAYS SO.*

Theft, larceny, criminal law.  US Code, Title 10.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/921

Piracy, copyright infringement.  US Code, Title 17.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17

The only places that say it's theft are big companies when they're lying, and people like you that don't know any better.



Valwin said:


> you enjoying the experience without monetary exchange


So going to a friend's house and watching their copy of the movie is stealing?

Your logic sucks.


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## osaka35 (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> WHAYRhfadfhasfjhsadf
> 
> your stealing the profit the developer put into the software


Rydian is talking about theft in regards to the legal definition. Since it is a matter of copyright infringement, Rydian is saying it's not a criminal act, just one you can be sued for. Meaning you can't serve any time in prison/jail for violating copyright (unless you're selling copyrighted stuff), unlike if you stole the same game from a store or something. You're talking about a more...conceptual idea of theft.


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## Blaze163 (Jan 10, 2013)

Ah, the old piracy issue. This never gets old.

I turned to piracy because given the circumstances of my life at the time, I needed some way to pick myself up and give me some much needed escapism from the nightmare that was my world. Video games have always been able to do that for me but I was so poor I could barely afford food, so I turned to hacking. It worked, and enabled me to get through a rough time in my life. Over time I have gradually weaned myself off it though, as my life recovers and I no longer need it as urgently. As I stand at present, I pirate under the following conditions;

- The game is prohibitively rare or expensive. Example, try tracking down a decent condition copy of PS2 gem 'Shadow of the Collosus'. Good luck with that. Even if I do find one it goes for extortionate prices, even preowned it's £25 around here. I refuse to pay more for a game than I paid for the system I play it on. Bollocks to that. Download.

- There's literally no other way to play it. Example, the English patched ISO of Monster Hunter Portable 3rd flat out doesn't exist without piracy, and without disabling my PS2's regional lockout with FreeMCBoot I have no way to play US-Only games like Ape Escape 3, Taled of Legendia, etc. If legal methods fail me I'll do what I must.

- I paid for the game once before but was forced to sell it. Example, more or less all of the PSP ISOs I have. I paid for them once before, the developers have had their money off me. I can't imagine they lose a whole hell of a lot by me not spending £8 to buy back my preowned copy of Outrun 2006, and they've had money off me already, so screw it. ISO time.

- Movies I can't wait to see but can't afford cinema tickets for. I usually invest in the DVD if the movie is truly worth it, though. In fact I saw a trailer years ago for The Count Of Monte Cristo and REALLY wanted to see it. Could never find the DVD, so I downloaded it. Love that film, one of my all time favourites. Years later I finally stumbled across the DVD and even though I had the download, I still bought the DVD.

- The Pokemon Anime I watch online. I'd be more than happy to pay for the DVD box sets if it were possible to get them for less than £75 per season. Anyone who honestly thinks they're worth that much can get down on one knee and kiss my hairy left arse cheek.

Other than that I've been good recently and pay for most of my games, and most of the movies. To be fair though when I'm finding games like Kid Icarus, Metal Gear and Resident Evil Revelations for a mere £10 in my local Asda, there's no need to spend hours downloading games. I'm good for a few hundred hours already with the backlog I have to clear up. Still got Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics to keep my PSP charged for, not started either of them yet. And if all else fails I have about 30-odd PS2 games I grabbed for 20p each to work through. First on the list, Viewtiful Joe 1+2. Then a little Devil May Cry.


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

osaka35 said:


> Rydian is talking about theft in regards to the legal definition. Since it is a matter of copyright infringement, Rydian is saying it's not a criminal act, just one you can be sued for. Meaning you can't serve any time in prison/jail for violating copyright (unless you're selling copyrighted stuff), unlike if you stole the same game from a store or something. You're talking about a more...conceptual idea of theft.


People think of theft as bad in that theft is an act that directly harms somebody.

Which is why the idea that piracy not actually causing monetary loss is so hard for them to comprehend, because they've been eating lies their whole life.


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## gamefan5 (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Have you ever heard of anyone been arrested for downloading video games?


Yes. Yes I did. Had to pay a massive fine for damages. How massive is it? Probably more then you'll ever make in your life. XD


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## the_randomizer (Jan 10, 2013)

Downloading a game illegally is only downloading a digital copy of said game, not the original source itself, hence why it's copyright infringement and not true theft. You might get fined, but going to jail isn't likely.

I agree with what was said, many games are extortionately priced and/or are hard to get a hold of. Personally, I don't care if people download games, especially if they're no longer generating revenue or belong to now-defunct companies. I feel the same about games I own but might get lost/stolen, I don't want to have to pay for another copy, hence why I backed up my Gamecube/Wii collection on an HDD, so I don't have to swap back and forth, nor do I have to repurchase said games. If someone is that paranoid, use a VPN.


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## Sicklyboy (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> WHAYRhfadfhasfjhsadf
> 
> your stealing the profit the developer put into the software


Me downloading a game does not put money back into my bank account.


jimskeet2002 said:


> Oh so it is fine if they legally rip us off but it is not fine if we illegally download their games  hehe. Nice. Guess what. I will keep playing pirated games and none will sue me .
> [...]


 
Good luck.



Rydian said:


> *[...]*
> So going to a friend's house and watching their copy of the movie is stealing?
> 
> Your logic sucks.


Exactly.  About as much as listening to public radio and switching the stations before commercial breaks is stealing.


wrettcaughn said:


> There is little correlation between budget and amount of content, especially when comparing movies and video games.
> 
> For example:
> Bioshock - budget $15mil - *Development 3 years* - Sales 4 mil units over all platforms - Avg. Playtime 20-25 hours
> ...


I understand that.  A big problem though is availability due to price.  There's a lot of people that would love to play every new game that comes out, and would have no problem paying for each one if they didn't cost so much.  If games cost $15-$20 a piece, and even $30 for some of the big title games, I'd have very little problem buying each one I want to play.  But at $60 a pop, that's a LOT of money.  That's almost as much as I make in a day of work.  So on a small scale, we're looking at me not being able to give the producers my money because I don't have enough and me not playing the game, or me not giving the producers my money because I don't have enough and still getting to appreciate their work and encourage me to purchase some of their products at a future date if I have some more disposable money.  In either case, the developer gets no money up front, but at the pirate scenario, they're still not *losing* anything, but have the prospect of me buying some of their goods at a late date because I am now a bit more familiar with their work.
I'm not saying piracy is good, I'm not endorsing it, I'm not saying anyone ought to do it.  I do think it is wrong no matter how you look at it.  But that doesn't stop me from doing it on occasion.


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## Parasite X (Jan 10, 2013)

I admit I buy new and used games if I do pirate it's for DS and GBA games but I also buy those games. Is it wrong to download illegal copies of games you don't own yes but it's ok if you own the games it's also ok if you plan to  buy those games you downloaded.


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## Zetta_x (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> your stealing the damn game you enjoying the experience without monetary exchange how do i need to spell it for you if you steal fine ok but a least say your stealing


I've never seen someone troll by literally being dumber than rocks. Valwin, your lack of ability to logically put things together scares me. I'm serious, you just displayed logic behavior 3-4 standard deviations below normal, this is almost unheard of. I have taught special ed kids and I don't even know where to start with you. Rydian has made the best distinction between stealing and pirating even in legal terms and the only thing you did was regurgitate your posts. Please, re-read what has been posted to learn your errors. Seriously


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## Chary (Jan 10, 2013)

I pirate, and I don't care whether it's legal or non-legal. I hardly doubt the police will come and arrest me. 

In the end, it's just a matter on the availability of what I want. Official soundtracks to Sonic the Hedgehog games? They cost $90+. Pirate it. An English copy of Mother 3? Can't be purchased. Pirate it. Old TV shows that have not EVER been released on VHS/DvD? I'll never have it if I don't pirate it. So guess what? Pirate it.

I have an enormous collection of video games/movies/ect. I'm not saying that once you spend a certain amount of money, it's OK to pirate, but sheesh, I can't plunk ALL my money into things I want. So, of course, if given an opportunity, I'll pirate something, and have no qualms about it.


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 10, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> Me downloading a game does not put money back into my bank account.
> 
> 
> Good luck.
> ...


And yet, gaming is a hobby and a luxury.  Something for collectors and enthusiasts.  Let's say I'm a runner.  Do I buy every new pair of shoes that come out? No.  I buy the ones I like best, use them until they wear out, and then start looking for another pair.  The trouble with games is that everyone seems to think they have the "right" to play everything.  They don't.  You don't.  If you feel a true _need_ to play everything that comes out...I'm sure google can bring up the medical name for whichever personality disorder causes that...  There's an obscene sense of entitlement among communities like these.  People develop this belief that if a game gets released then they should get to play it and will justify this ridiculous belief by telling themselves it's the dev's fault or the publisher's fault or the economy's fault...  It's silly.


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## Sephtenshi (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> your stealing the damn game you enjoying the experience without monetary exchange how do i need to spell it for you if you steal fine ok but a least say your stealing


 
*Good Lord!!!* *"You're"* _not_* "your*"


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 10, 2013)

Sephtenshi said:


> *Good Lord!!!* *"You're"* _not_* "your*"


He learned English via bad translation patches...  They don't teach English in schools in Puerto Rico.


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## Sephtenshi (Jan 10, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> He learned English via bad translation patches... They don't teach English in schools in Puerto Rico.


I don't think he's ever learned English at all... however, criticizing a country because of his actions is very prejudiced and simply impolite.
It's the same thing as people saying all americans are lazy, fat and inbred (which is *not* my opinion, let it be clear)

Also, schools don't have to teach English. It's a very useful tool in the global culture we live in, but it's not God's special language.


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## gameandmatch (Jan 10, 2013)

Osha said:


> I wouldn't shell out 60 bucks in a game either, especially when you know the production cost is at least two times lower.


 
What? What is this you speak of? Name me one game that it cost a company 2/3 of the price they sell it for to make.
On topic: Till the copyright expires, which will never happen.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

Osha said:


> I wouldn't shell out 60 bucks in a game either, especially when you know the production cost is at least two times lower.


 
Uh... production costs are millions of dollars dude.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 10, 2013)

I just read through the 4 pages since my last post in this thread. Random thought time.

Some of you have atrocious grammar. I'm not perfect, but holy fucksticks.

People have no clue what they are talking about, and calling anyone who disagrees with them "idiots". Yes, typical thread seeking intelligent debate on the internet.

I want some tacos.

Someone said that piracy is stealing the profit a dev could have made from the game. Actually, it would be more reducing the possible profit made. However, since there's no way to tell how much profit the game would of made without piracy, this is mostly a moot point.

It seems the majority agree that piracy is wrong, but easier than tracking down legitimate copies is some cases (Region locks, availability, price, general lack of moral fortitude, it's Wednesday, etc...).


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

Sychophantom said:


> Some of you have atrocious grammar. I'm not perfect, but holy fucksticks.


Somebody made a fake valwin translator thing.  I can't find the link right now, though.



Sychophantom said:


> People have no clue what they are talking about, and calling anyone who disagrees with them "idiots". Yes, typical thread seeking intelligent debate on the internet.


"It's what I was told while I was raised, so it's obviously true otherwise I wouldn't have been told it.  You disagree with my upbringing?  Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."



Sychophantom said:


> I want some tacos.


I ate some tacos!  The Doritos tacos are pleasantly delicious.  The shell's not always-hard like you'd expect, it has the normal Taco Bell hard taco shell properties.



Sychophantom said:


> Someone said that piracy is stealing the profit a dev could have made from the game. Actually, it would be more reducing the possible profit made. However, since there's no way to tell how much profit the game would of made without piracy, this is mostly a moot point.


Courts/judged have said as much too.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...llegal-downloads-dont-equal-17000-lost-sales/
But, you know, that's actual legal people talking so people don't hear it, they instead hear the propaganda.

_Interesting info, propaganda can lie all it wants._  It's not false advertising if you're not advertising a product or a service, and it's not libel (written/recorded form of slander) if it's not targeting an individual or officially-recognized group.  I even saw the vice president of the US give a speech where he said that piracy was like breaking into a shop and taking things, and suddenly all the lawyer's blogs on the internet lit up with "WTF, doesn't somebody proofred his speeches first?"



Sychophantom said:


> It seems the majority agree that piracy is wrong, but easier than tracking down legitimate copies is some cases (Region locks, availability, price, general lack of moral fortitude, it's Wednesday, etc...).


For some people it even depends on the system.  I rarely pirate PC games anymore (Steam convert here), but I download DS ROMs by the dozen (except for Pokemon).


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## Senbei Norimaki (Jan 10, 2013)

The developers don't really care if a few nerds pirate video games.  They just try their hardest to stop the average person from doing it.  They can do that easily with firmware updates.  Thank God for pirates.  If it wasn't for them I would've never have been able to play Love Plus in English.


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## BloodShed (Jan 10, 2013)

I can't resist adding a few thoughts.

In my opinion, the effect of piracy is negotiable and it depends on the individual.  It sounds like an oxymoron, but I think that a certain level of ethical principal should still apply to software piracy.

What do I mean?  For example, I think most could agree there's extremely little harm in pirating "abandonware".  The publisher/developer has already stopped production and they're no longer making money on it.  In these situations, you're forced to purchase the game used and that money never ends up supporting the original developer and publisher.  At best, you might be able to argue that a used purchase has an indirectly positive impact on the industry.  Perhaps, through specific channels, that purchase might help that game shop secure more space to sell more products.  I suspect that it would be a rare situation.

Now, it could be suggested that pirating software as a "trial" is also harmful.  I think it's somewhat debatable.  What's the alternative?  Let's imagine a world without piracy.  You're interested in buying game A or game B.  You only have enough money for one.  You choose game A because it looks better only to discover that it's garbage and game B is superior.  Too late!  Now the same scenario with piracy could play out in two ways.  So, you pirate both game A and game B.  You could either realize that game B is better and purchase that, or you simply decide not to purchase either.  I hope that more people would choose to purchase the games that they like when they can afford it.  If so, with piracy, the better product gets financial support and the customer wasn't "tricked" into purchasing a bad product with better marketing.  The impact depends on the person.

Most importantly, as pointed out several times, the quantity of pirated media does not directly correlate to the number of lost sales.  A good example are the college students that the RIAA loves to target.  We're talking about struggling college kids here.  They likely have tens of thousands of dollars in student loans while working a minimum wage or part-time job.  They can't afford to buy a thousand albums; but they can certainly download them.  It's a ridiculous suggestion that each download was a lost sale.

The people that do create a problem are the ones that refuse to purchase any media at all (even when they have the funds for it).  I know a couple people that have openly pledged that they will never buy another song or movie or whatever.  _That_ is a problem and those people should take more responsibility in understanding that the hard working people creating the media they enjoy deserve compensation.  They deserve it because they earned your satisfaction and because they need to be encouraged to make more great products.

In short, I think piracy is fine as long as you still purchase the products you love when the money for it is available.


Now, after having said all that, I think the real problem is greedy publishers.  They get upset that people download a movie when they're charging $15 for a movie ticket and $40 for a Blu-ray.  They charge $60 for a game that eventually sells (brand new) for $20.  They especially love to sell you a $60 game and charge you more for DLC.  Look at Sim 3 on Steam.  The game is 4 years old and it costs $449.84 to buy everything digital!  That's beyond insane.

To top it off, they have those special editions for $100 to $150 with $5 worth of mostly junk.  Then you have companies like Capcom who like to re-release the same game over and over with minor changes every time.  Just like the movie industry that releases new editions every year with a _little_ bit more content added each time.  They happily sell the same product to the same customers multiple times.

Who are the real thieves here?

Anyway, I only buy brand new games/movies/music.  Unless it's out of print and I have no choice but to buy used.  For a long time, I bought all the major games when they first came out at full price.  That includes a lot of overpriced special editions.  I'm done with it, though.  Now I just put games in my Amazon wish list until they drop to a price that I'm willing to pay for it.  It's pretty satisfying to purchase a brand new special edition game at $40 when it originally sold for $150.

Frankly, I feel like most people are pirating because they can't afford not to!  I am hoping that one day the publishers will get wise and realize that pirating isn't the problem... their pricing and business model is.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> To top it off, they have those special editions for $100 to $150 with $5 worth of mostly junk.


 
About that, I paid 100 bucks for a special edition of Borderlands 2 on the PS3. It came with a map, stickers, game, DLC stuff and a Marcus Bobblehead toy. I go on ebay, that Marcus Bobblehead is going for around 35 bucks. Then the artbook is going for around 40 bucks as well.


----------



## BloodShed (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> About that, I paid 100 bucks for a special edition of Borderlands 2 on the PS3. It came with a map, stickers, game, DLC stuff and a Marcus Bobblehead toy. I go on ebay, that Marcus Bobblehead is going for around 35 bucks. Then the artbook is going for around 40 bucks as well.


There's a few rare special editions that are decent.  Mostly, they come with cheap junk that was clearly thrown together at minimal cost.  Look at the Fallout 3 Pipboy clock, the Batman Batarang, the Tron cycle, the list goes on.  The point is that, even if people are buying a bobblehead and artbook at those silly prices, it doesn't cost that much to make.  Digital content in particular costs them nothing.

I mean, games honestly are overpriced at $60.  Even still, the Borderlands 2 special edition added an additional $40 to manufacture 4 stickers, a mini art book, and a plastic bobblehead.  Seriously, at best, we're talking an extra $10 for them to make this stuff.

But I can also say it's risky to wait on a special edition if you want them.  Certain games will have special edition stock available for years.  Some will sell out.


----------



## SoraK05 (Jan 10, 2013)

If one takes any file on a computer as raw data in terms of bits/bytes, i.e. every file consists of combinations of bytes 00->FF, technically any file can be reproduced on a computer.
If one makes a program to generate every file that a computer can make (i.e. every 1 byte file, every 2 byte file, every 3 byte file, etc.), technically speaking as unlikely as it is every form of media can be generated in the fashion. Any computer can simply generate every file possible, including all media.

This file generator can technically produce every game ever made.

As games are generally copyrighted, I presume in a sense that the 'file' or 'files' that constitute the game are recognized as collaborative efforts by the people that made the game.

I suppose it can be a question of copyrighting computer files / byte sequences. If one makes a game, and copyrights the file (e.g DS ROM), it could mean that the file out of all files a computer can produce is 'copyrighted', and thus requires permission by the party that copyrighted the file to use it. i.e. If one produces this file with the file generator mentioned above, it would technically be 'copyrighted' and require permission to store it on your media.

On one hand, if seems fair that if I were to make a game and copyright the game (and perhaps file), anyone who wants to possess this file would have to pay for this. Anyone reproducing (and distributing) without paying for this file would be in possession of a 'copyrighted file', and is thus owning the file without having permission. Providing one buys to right to own this file, and presuming it is limited to one copy, it would mean that only one copy of the file may be allowed on a media, and duplicating it to another folder on your hard drive would break this agreement.. 

On the other, as a computer can technically produce any file possible, it may not be fair to copyright files to begin with


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## Mantis41 (Jan 10, 2013)

Valwin said:


> your stealing the damn game you enjoying the experience without monetary exchange how do i need to spell it for you if you steal fine ok but a least say your stealing


The argument is if I swap a game with a friend or borrow a mates game I am still enjoying the experience without monetary exchange.


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## pyromaniac123 (Jan 10, 2013)

I pirate because I'm a dirty thief.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> About that, I paid 100 bucks for a special edition of Borderlands 2 on the PS3. It came with a map, stickers, game, DLC stuff and a Marcus Bobblehead toy. I go on ebay, that Marcus Bobblehead is going for around 35 bucks. Then the artbook is going for around 40 bucks as well.


Special editions I can understand the high price but I use Photoshop for school and guess what it costs $250 and I should pay for that just because I need it for school? Lol hell no, thats just bullshit to pay the same price for a mid range phone or a new game console just for a piece of software. I'm better off pirating it and use that money for other things.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Let me tell you another fact then... For developers to develop games there must be a console first. Do you want me to remind you what happened to SEGA? I won't buy a console that can't be hacked and pirated and as me multiple million other people wont... If you take a look in history consoles that are most successful are the ones that are easily hacked


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## lokomelo (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Let me tell you another fact then... For developers to develop games there must be a console first. Do you want me to remind you what happened to SEGA? I won't buy a console that can't be hacked and pirated and as me multiple million other people wont... If you take a look in history consoles that are most successful are the ones that are easily hacked


This is not true at all. Do not take PS1 and PS2 as a rule.

Wii and DS sold tons of games and we need no DS game to play roms and the most sold wii game (excluding wii sports) was Mario Kart, and that game do not lead to any hack.

I may add that Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Sega, etc aways put some tiny or negative profit margin on their consoles to recover this later with the games.

Edit: I'm not saying that I disagree with piracy. I like it, made me save money and play games that I would never buy. Besides that, the game devs are much more rich than me


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## pyromaniac123 (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Let me tell you another fact then... *For developers to develop games there must be a console first.* Do you want me to remind you what happened to SEGA? I won't buy a console that can't be hacked and pirated and as me multiple million other people wont... If you take a look in history consoles that are most successful are the ones that are easily hacked


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## Sychophantom (Jan 10, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> There's a few rare special editions that are decent. Mostly, they come with cheap junk that was clearly thrown together at minimal cost. Look at the Fallout 3 Pipboy clock, the Batman Batarang, the Tron cycle, the list goes on. The point is that, even if people are buying a bobblehead and artbook at those silly prices, it doesn't cost that much to make. Digital content in particular costs them nothing.
> 
> I mean, games honestly are overpriced at $60. Even still, the Borderlands 2 special edition added an additional $40 to manufacture 4 stickers, a mini art book, and a plastic bobblehead. Seriously, at best, we're talking an extra $10 for them to make this stuff.
> 
> But I can also say it's risky to wait on a special edition if you want them. Certain games will have special edition stock available for years. Some will sell out.


 
Bioshock 2 comes to mind. It was $100 when it first came out for the special edition. I think I paid 5 bucks for a sealed copy from Best Buy not too long ago for one.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

pyromaniac123 said:


>


Watch out... we have a funny guy here 
go tell this to SEGA that made the consoles hard to hack and then all the consumeres went to Sony. And now SEGA ended up being a developer for games on sony microsoft and nintendo... But hey... NO SAY


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> This is not true at all. Do not take PS1 and PS2 as a rule.
> 
> Wii and DS sold tons of games and we need no DS game to play roms and the most sold wii game (excluding wii sports) was Mario Kart, and that game do not lead to any hack.
> 
> ...


 


jimskeet2002 said:


> Watch out... we have a funny guy here


Te
Lol i didn't mean that only that games that lead to a hack are selling... I said that consumers will buy consoles that are easy to hack. They wont buy a console that cant be hacked... At least the majority of them. And this is a fact that developers and companies should count in their plans.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

Nice to see people arguing about piracy on a topic about piracy, not the topics about hack or emulation.
As i can see, everyone can find a reason to pirate a game. In my country we do it because 1 game can cost 20, 30% of your income. Even if that is no excuse, we do it because in Brazil everything is overpriced and we do nothing about it, because the only ones that care are too few to make a stand.

But we're arguing about something that make about 50 billions/ year and loses about 20% because of that.
come on, are they loosing for real ? 50 billion is not enough ?

Well, i don't feel that i'm stealing something because i'm not making any profit from it, neither the people who make the game, those are already paid for it. Only companies looses money with piracy, but i bet they're quite nice in their mansions.


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## The Real Jdbye (Jan 10, 2013)

Chary said:


> Pirating is ALWAYS okay!
> *Hugs HDD with questionably illegal downloads.*


This.


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## Valwin (Jan 10, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> Nice to see people arguing about piracy on a topic about piracy, not the topics about hack or emulation.
> As i can see, everyone can find a reason to pirate a game. In my country we do it because 1 game can cost 20, 30% of your income. Even if that is no excuse, we do it because in Brazil everything is overpriced and we do nothing about it, because the only ones that care are too few to make a stand.


 


> i love making executes for my illegal act i blame everyone else damn government


 

why look for excuses just say iam a dirty pirated and i am proud of it


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

A reason is not an excuse.
I am proud of pirate, i like games, not companies.


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## prectorian (Jan 10, 2013)

Q: When is piracy ok?
A: When you're not making/earning enough money to spend on copy-write materials
     (games, software, books, ebooks, movie, etc.), but couldn't wait to enjoy/get a hold of it.
     Especially when the price of the original stuff is so ridiculous, that you don't know if you should laugh or cry.

I had no choice but to do so, on the ground of my above respond. 
But, as every man would say 'if you could pay less, why spend more'.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 10, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> A reason is not an excuse.
> I am proud of pirate, i like games, not companies.


 
That's like saying "I love movies, just not directors."

I can pass off people just admitting they're morally wrong in pirating, but when they say they do it because they "don't like companies", I find it unacceptable. This is someone's job, this is someone's hard work, and you're basically saying "Well I'm not paying for it" because, god forbid, they're part of a large distributor.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> That's like saying "I love movies, just not directors."
> 
> I can pass off people just admitting they're morally wrong in pirating, but when they say they do it because they "don't like companies", I find it unacceptable. This is someone's job, this is someone's hard work, and you're basically saying "Well I'm not paying for it" because, god forbid, they're part of a large distributor.


Not to mention that without a big publisher backing a studio, no "big budget" games would see the light of day in the first place - such development is too risky and studios often "sell their souls to the devil" for the sake of developing in acceptable environments and with proper gear.


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## Augusta (Jan 10, 2013)

This would be a lot more interesting if you asked...

*1. Religion (or lack there of)*
*2. Is pirating okay?*



> These companies make more money than me, therefore I have the RIGHT to steal from them!
> HOW DARE THEY CHARGE ME MORE THAN WHAT I'M WILLING TO PAY!?


The amount of justification *for* piracy in this thread is absolutely ridiculous.

Why do you guys think you're entitled to everything?
If you aren't willing to pay for a game (whether new/used) why do you think you have the right to pirate it?
If you don't agree with the price they see fit, why not just buy it used?

What am I missing here?


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## Gahars (Jan 10, 2013)

There's something I keep reading in this thread, and I don't think it's been disputed. Essentially, it goes, "Games are rip offs. Movie tickets are only $10 bucks, but games can be $50-60. Clearly, this is a scam." 

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to redirect you to the department of Bull and Shit, esq.

Comparing the two mediums seems logical and reasonable, but it just doesn't hold up. Films have, by default, a wider audience - anyone can walk into a theater and buy a ticket, while for someone to buy your game, they have to own the right console(s) or have the correct specs on their gaming rig. This whittles down the amount of people who can purchase your product right off the bat. (Franchises like CoD and GTA break records all the time, but keep in mind, they're charged at almost 6-times the amount as a film or a novel - if you were to go by number of sales only, I'm sure they would pale compared to the blockbusters of film).

With movies, there are plenty more opportunities to recoup your budget. First comes the original box office run. After that, there's the sales made from downloads/DVDs/Blu-Rays (which can be boosted by releasing "Special Editions" every now and then). Films also make huge amounts of money from syndication - every time a movie airs on TV, the studio brings in a nice wad of cash. Games, for the most part, don't really have these options. For a lot of games, the money they make upon release is pretty much all they're going to earn.

Plus, when you take inflation into account, game prices have actually gotten cheaper. (This image is just one little demonstration) Crazy, right?

Now, I think you could make the argument that the $60 price point for big name releases is arbitrary. Is it a completely unjustified price gouging scheme? Hardly.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> That's like saying "I love movies, just not directors."
> 
> I can pass off people just admitting they're morally wrong in pirating, but when they say they do it because they "don't like companies", I find it unacceptable. This is someone's job, this is someone's hard work, and you're basically saying "Well I'm not paying for it" because, god forbid, they're part of a large distributor.


 
No, that's not what i ment, as i said on previous post, the people involved on game development will get paid the same amount, no matter if the game sells or not. It's more like saying "i don't like the movie industry".

Edit:  What risk would have a company that earns 10 billion/ year and loose 10% with piracy ?


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## Gahars (Jan 10, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> No, that's not what i ment, as i said on previous post, the people involved on game development will get paid the same amount, no matter if the game sells or not. It's more like saying "i don't like the movie industry".


 
The problem is, if the game doesn't sell, they might not get paid again. Job security ain't what it used to be.


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## sero (Jan 10, 2013)

guyver2k said:


> if the game and console corporations aren't going to make money off you REGARDLESS


 
I would disagree with this assertion.  No, you are not directly giving money to the game industry.  However, the action of you buying a used game takes that game out of circulation, reducing the supply available to others.  That reduces the amount of used games people are able to buy, increasing the likelihood of them going after a new copy of the game.

Furthermore the act of you buying a used game increases the resale value of said game.  People are more likely to buy a game (at least somewhat) if there is the eventual opportunity that they can resell it to recoup some of their costs.  If you knew you could never sell a game if you hate it (or would only get 10-20% of its value back), you may be less likely to buy new.

So no, you aren't directly giving money to the developers and game manufacturers.  However, you are in an indirect way doing so.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

They will, (and again, i'm not making any excuses for piracy, just sharing my opinion), if you look the resume of a game artist such as Bem Mathis, you will see that he worked on a lot PS2 and PC games. How piracy is affecting his work, since he get paid by project ?
Not to mention that the PS2 was in production until last month, what was the last title released on ps2 ? why someone buys a console that won't be any new games ? only to download or buy used games.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Piracy is never _"okay"_ - you _"acquire"_ software which _you are not entitled to use_, that's the gist of it. Whatever reasons you may come up with, like fighting The Man, poor financial status, negligable losses for the company and what not _do not validate piracy - they just make you feel better about yourself_, and that makes you a hypocrite.

Either you _accept_ the fact that _you're doing something that's considered wrong_ or you look for _poor excuses to validate your illegal activities_ - there is no alternative. You use media which _you're not entitled to use_ - lots of people had to put hard work into the software and by pirating it, _you're not giving them their cut_. Now, this is not theft provided you wouldn't buy the media if you didn't have the chance to pirate it - you do not inflict direct losses, nobody's wallet suffers - you're just _not giving credit where credit is due_.


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## Nurio (Jan 10, 2013)

emigre said:


> The piracy discussions are pretty funny when you take into account GBAtemp's original purpose was to distribute roms.


I'm wondering. I can remember GBAtemp having at least a list of releases in the scene. But now I don't see them having this list anymore. Did GBAtemp opt to not show a list of releases anymore? And if so, why?


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

So, if you bought a guitar, you do not have the right to reproduce any part of any song without accept that you're not playing, you're pirating ?


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> So, if you bought a guitar, you do not have the right to reproduce any part of any song without accept that you're not playing, you're pirating ?


If it's not _your intellectual property_ then you_ cannot play a given song and sell it as yours_. You can play the song for yourself according to the principles of Fair Use, but this _does not apply to video games_ - _video games are a ready product_, playing the guitar is creating your own product based on something else for your own amusement - world of difference right there. Do try to start a band, record some covers and send the single to a publisher, then see what happens.

You know the song but you _perform it yourself_. Moreover, you don't exactly participate in the distribution of the original content - _your song and the song you're imitating are not the same._

Playing someone's song on your guitar is the musical equivalent of playing a game and then programming a similar one yourself - does that sound like pirating content? Not really. That said, if you were to use content _ripped directly from the original game, it would be IP theft. If you blatantly copied concepts from the original and sold them as your own, it would be IP theft._


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## Nurio (Jan 10, 2013)

I think there are plenty of cover bands that make money off their cover songs.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

So that's what i'm saying, you cannot say that is illegal to download a game. Put them available for download is, because you don't have the right to distribute.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Nurio said:


> I think there are plenty of cover bands that make money off their cover songs.


Cover songs need to be licensed though, keep that in mind. There needs to be an agreement between publishers, credit needs to be paid first, unless the song is Public Domain. Nobody makes a cover, signs it with his/her band name and sells it just like that - that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Same with books or movies - any media, really.



Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> So that's what i'm saying, you cannot say that is illegal to download a game. Put them available for download is, because you don't have the right to distribute.


It _is_ illegal to download a game. I can say it quite easily, actually. You do not have the license to use given software, yet you use it. It's not theft, it's illegitimate use.


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## Nurio (Jan 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Cover songs need to be licensed though, keep that in mind. There needs to be an agreement between publishers, credit needs to be paid first, unless the song is Public Domain. Nobody makes a cover, signs it with his/her band name and sells it just like that - that's a lawsuit waiting to happen. Same with books or movies - any media, really.


That's true, I suppose. Bah, I don't know a whole lot about the music industry.

Though, I wonder if people could answer my question a few posts back. It's not completely relevant to the current line of discussion, but it's relevant to the thread topic to a degree.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Nurio said:


> I'm wondering. I can remember GBAtemp having at least a list of releases in the scene. But now I don't see them having this list anymore. Did GBAtemp opt to not show a list of releases anymore? And if so, why?


Because it gradually transforms into a News site rather than a Release site. Scene Releases are no longer the main focus. I hope that answers your question.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

i don't recall of any distribution of roms on gbatemp, just that list of releases that the site used to have. But i'm curious about this too.


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## Nurio (Jan 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Because it gradually transforms into a News site rather than a Release site. Scene Releases are no longer the main focus. I hope that answers your question.


It does. To an extent. It doesn't completely answer the "why", though.
I mean, why did they suddenly make this decision to change focus? Did they get some sort of legal pressure from copyright holders? Or did the staff suddenly 'see the light'? Or was there a staff change?


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Nurio said:


> It does. To an extent. It doesn't completely answer the "why", though.
> I mean, why did they suddenly make this decision to change focus? Did they get some sort of legal pressure from copyright holders? Or did the staff suddenly 'see the light'? Or was there a staff change?


It was a gradual change - not many people know that GBATemp actually used to be a ROM site. It was just the decision of the staff, the TempBot has been disabled some time ago and the change of the forum system was the cherry on top of the cake.


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## Rayder (Jan 10, 2013)

I used to pirate everything just because I could.  But now, digital distribution is making me do it.  I have a decent job now, making good money and can afford to buy just about anything I want.  But I refuse to buy a game without a physical disk in my hand.  I've spent many years DL'ing stuff for free, I'm NOT going to PAY for a DL.  It's especially frustrating to want a game, go into a store to get it and find out the only way to get that game is digital distribution.  Ok, fine, I'll download it, but I ain't PAYING to download a game.  Screw that noise.

Well, I'm resisting digital distribution as long as I can anyway.  $60 a pop for a game, and you get less than you ever did before.....no pretty box, no disk, no instruction book, just a download.   May as well just pirate it.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

Rayder said:


> I used to pirate everything just because I could. But now, digital distribution is making me do it. I have a decent job now, making good money and can afford to buy just about anything I want. But I refuse to buy a game without a physical disk in my hand. I've spent many years DL'ing stuff for free, I'm NOT going to PAY for a DL. It's especially frustrating to want a game, go into a store to get it and find out the only way to get that game is digital distribution. Ok, fine, I'll download it, but I ain't PAYING to download a game. Screw that noise.
> 
> Well, I'm resisting digital distribution as long as I can anyway. $60 a pop for a game, and you get less than you ever did before.....no pretty box, no disk, no instruction book, just a download. May as well just pirate it.


 
But there some games on Steam ana gog.com with fair prices. I will never download a game that cost 5, 10 bucks, my computer worth around US$700, so it's fair to pay that price for a game.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 10, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> Well, i don't feel that i'm stealing something because i'm not making any profit from it, neither the people who make the game, those are already paid for it. Only companies looses money with piracy, but i bet they're quite nice in their mansions.



You're not making any profit?  You're getting to play a game you otherwise wouldn't have been able to.  Profit is not limited to $$$


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> But there some games on Steam ana gog.com with fair prices. I will never download a game that cost 5, 10 bucks, my computer worth around US$700, so it's fair to pay that price for a game.


It's not for you to judge which price is fair and which isn't - you don't know the costs of developing a video game.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

And because of that i have no right to find the price for the game expensive ?
the game is sell at retail price for about $40,  in the country that i live they're about $80, $90 bucks, and most of people earn about $400/month.
Again, i'm not making excuses for piracy, but in your judgement, and i also agree with you, but i just don't care, i buy games only when i can and only if i know that i will play this game for a long time.

But why, for example, i would buy a copy of chronno trigger for DS when i can emulate it and play for free ?


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## Nurio (Jan 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> It was a gradual change - not many people know that GBATemp actually used to be a ROM site. It was just the decision of the staff, the TempBot has been disabled some time ago and the change of the forum system was the cherry on top of the cake.


Okay, thanks. That sufficiently answers it. Now I wonder if there are other sites that simply list all the releases, since those seem to be more reliable than ROM sites. I could just see which games are released and use Google to search for the filename and download the ROM.
If anyone knows of such a site, can they tell me about it? Even a link to a reliable ROM site would be fine. Oh right, no linking of such kind is allowed on this site. Drat, if only there were some way to circumvent this and tell me privately on these forums or otherwise. **cough**

Yes, I admit, I pirate from time to time. But I consider myself at least a fair pirate.
I've pirated quite some games over the years to try them out. If I don't like them, I delete them. If I enjoyed and played through the game, I try to buy it if it's available. Yes, even at full price.
In a sense, I use pirated games as demos of sorts. (And I like the extra functionality and convenience that flash cards and hard drives offer.)

Because of this, I am of the opinion that piracy doesn't necessarily hurt sales. Without piracy I wouldn't have tried out and fallen in love with the Ace Attorney series, for example. The Visual Novel is a whole market I've gotten into because of piracy, and now I am a loyal customer in that industry.


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## Janthran (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm pretty sure it _is_ legal to download games/music/whatever in Canada.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

Nurio said:


> Okay, thanks. That sufficiently answers it. Now I wonder if there are other sites that simply list all the releases, since those seem to be more reliable than ROM sites. I could just see which games are released and use Google to search for the filename and download the ROM.


I'm a News Poster at DS-Scene, so as far as the DS is concerned, obviously I'm going to recommend it - it's a very accurate database and we also offer an app which automatically downloads and applies patches.

For all other consoles, there's things like AGBX.net, NFORush etc.

Those sites do not contain any illegal content, they only list releases.


Janthran said:


> I'm pretty sure it _is_ legal to download games/music/whatever in Canada.


You're pretty wrong.


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## Deleted User (Jan 10, 2013)

It's all okay until I don't have to spend $100+ on a shitty $25 game.

Australia prices are fucking stupid.


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## Nurio (Jan 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm a News Poster at DS-Scene, so as far as the DS is concerned, obviously I'm going to recommend it - it's a very accurate database and we also offer an app which automatically downloads and applies patches.
> 
> For all other consoles, there's things like AGBX.net, NFORush etc.
> 
> Those sites do not contain any illegal content, they only list releases.


Thank you. Exactly what I was looking for.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 10, 2013)

This is a statement from gog.com about SOPA, and illustrates everything that i think about piracy.

"GOG.com is opposed to piracy and copyright infringement, but we know that there are good way to try and reduce piracy and bad ones,"
"GOG.com will always oppose anti-piracy methods that threaten user privacy and freedom. We will always stay DRM-free and apply ‘same game-same price’ policy. We will always put trust in our users as the best method of fighting piracy."

In an intreview, Trevor Longino said this about their games had been download on p2p torrent sites

“Some of the largest sources of traffic on GOG.com are from torrent trackers and abandonware sites. And you know what? The traffic from these websites converts to purchasers at a better percentage than straight search traffic from Google does. The first exposure these people had to GOG.com came through illegal free copies of the games we sell, and they found our offer so compelling that they sign up and buy from us.”

http://www.gog.com/news/gog_com_joins_opposition_to_sopa_and_pipa


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

ferret7463 said:


> WAAAAAAY back in the day, when i was young and the Dinosaurs roamed freely across the land, Intellectual property was considered stolen....IF....You were making copies and SELLING it. Other wise it was sharing your product with others. We used to make each other cassette tapes of music we had and VCR tapes of movies that our friends had. There was no real fuss.
> Then came the day... SONY screamed to the public that we,( the common people) did own what we bought but merely rent it from them. At first, the public said "That's Stupid." But now after years of constant yelling by the corporations that if you share then you are a thief. The public has been slowly persuaded that it's true.
> I, for one say, it is not as big a deal as these companies make it out to be. Where i see it, most people don't want to bother with the technical mumbo jumbo and just pay for the product out right. I have had literally 100s of conversations with other parents who at first complain about the cost of DS games for their kids. I would then tell them about the R4 and how they could just get the Rom and install it on a micro SD.... Then they just say..."I'll just buy it."
> I did not mean to make a rant, but i say it's alright and these companies are just brain washing you to think other wise.


Exactly!!!!
Someone buys the game. Isn't it his to do it whatever he wants? Or you guys like to pay your money to "rent" the software????


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## Foxi4 (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Exactly!!!!
> Someone buys the game. Isn't it his to do it whatever he wants? Or you guys like to pay your money to "rent" the software????


It was illegal even in the forementioned days, it's just that nobody gave enough sh*t to do anything about it. If the license does not specify otherwise, it is for one user only - you cannot "share" whether you like it or not.

Fun Fact: Arthur Conan Doyle, the creator of Sherlock Holmes complained about copyright protection - his stories were illegaly copied and published without his consent in the States, it's an interesting tid bit to know about piracy. Yes, you can pirate a book.


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## Jayro (Jan 10, 2013)

Piracy is my way of life. I pirate everything, because I'm poor. I can't wait for the 3DS to be able to load roms. Then I can finally have the games I can't afford.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Ok then go pay for your games and in 20 years of paying u will have wasted like 20.000 dollars on games  have fun with that.


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## Rydian (Jan 10, 2013)

SoraK05 said:


> On the other, as a computer can technically produce any file possible, it may not be fair to copyright files to begin with


This is partially why the EU has no software patents.  They've realized that the way people have thought about goods for hundreds of years *just doesn't work* when you get to computers, where you can duplicate data as many times as you have supplied power and storage space.



Sychophantom said:


> Bioshock 2 comes to mind. It was $100 when it first came out for the special edition. I think I paid 5 bucks for a sealed copy from Best Buy not too long ago for one.


I for it for like, $5 on steam I think.  I usually prefer to wait for games to age a while so I can do this.  If I had to buy everything at $50+ a pop, I'd just pirate instead... but I have no problem with $5-$15 for an older game.



Foxi4 said:


> Piracy is never _"okay"_ - you _"acquire"_ software which _you are not entitled to use_, that's the gist of it.


It's more along the lines of sneaking some photos of your sister's diary?



Nurio said:


> I'm wondering. I can remember GBAtemp having at least a list of releases in the scene. But now I don't see them having this list anymore. Did GBAtemp opt to not show a list of releases anymore? And if so, why?


Everything broke when the site got hacked and decided to switch forum software, the releases weren't considered important enough to be one of the main things brought back.  Ask! is still gone, are are blogs, etc.  The main communication methods (forums, shoutbox, IRC) were the focus.



Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> So, if you bought a guitar, you do not have the right to reproduce any part of any song without accept that you're not playing, you're pirating ?


What does the song have to do with the guitar?  They're two separate things.  A guitar is a tangible good, a song is an idea (often recorded).



Rayder said:


> $60 a pop for a game, and you get less than you ever did before.....no pretty box, no disk, no instruction book, just a download.   May as well just pirate it.


That has more to do with lots of companies running digital stuff not having any fucking clue what they're doing.

Or, if you have a different mindset, they DO know what they're doing, and they're still charging that because people are still paying that.



jimskeet2002 said:


> Ok then go pay for your games and in 20 years of paying u will have wasted like 20.000 dollars on games  have fun with that.


There's two other options.

1 - Buy your games at lower prices.  I get stuff like Mass Effect 2 at $5 on a semi-regular basis from Steam, and sales even bring recent games down to $20 or less.

2 - Play free games.  There's lots out there.

2 - Don't play games.  I mean it's like you assume that people HAVE to play games.


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## lokomelo (Jan 10, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> in the country that i live they're about $80, $90 bucks, and most of people earn about $400/month.


What country do you live? If it is Brazil it is not true at all. Avarage income here was $1049 in 2011, probabily it is even high now in 2013.  A game here, for example, Mario Kart 7 is U$63.95 / GBP 39.60 (or R$ 129.99). So I dont get your point. For me this value is not so high.

Your argument was valid back on 1994, when the minumum wage was R$ 70.00 per month and a game was R$ 60.00, but now things are VERY different. But on MS Dos times, piracy was a rule, at least here.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 10, 2013)

For me pirating is okay when the game is no longer being sold. Pirating is also ok when you already bought the game before.

About people complaing about people complaining about games prices... What is the matter in complaining about games prices? People can complain about it if they want to, the same way one can complain about the price of a movie session, a CD album, glasses and any other good. A game is not any more of a luxury than the other items I cited, just saying...


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 10, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> What country do you live? If it is Brazil it is not true at all. Avarage income here was $1049 in 2011, probabily it is even high now in 2013. A game here, for example, Mario Kart 7 is U$63.95 / GBP 39.60 (or R$ 129.99). So I dont get your point. For me this value is not so high.
> 
> Your argument was valid back on 1994, when the minumum wage was R$ 70.00 per month and a game was R$ 60.00, but now things are VERY different. But on MS Dos times, piracy was a rule, at least here.


 
Don't you mean avarage income in here was R$1049 instead of $1049? Also, you're not considering many people have families, so it's not like it's R$1049 for just one person


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## synce (Jan 10, 2013)

I grew up in an age where buying a game gave you complete control of it. We had cheat codes, save files weren't tied to an account, and you weren't limited to X number of consoles or whatever (_currently_ this only applies to digital games). More importantly there was nothing cut from the game to be sold at a later date. So I think it's fine to pirate anything with DLC or DRM, doesn't matter if it's $60 or $6.


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## Janthran (Jan 10, 2013)

Rydian said:


> 1 - Buy your games at lower prices. I get stuff like Mass Effect 2 at $5 on a semi-regular basis from Steam, and sales even bring recent games down to $20 or less.
> 
> 2 - Play free games. There's lots out there.
> 
> 2 - Don't play games. I mean it's like you assume that people HAVE to play games.


You said 2 twice. Just thought someone should point that out.


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## Originality (Jan 10, 2013)

Just think of all that money I saved by pirating over the years! Literally tens of thousands of games downloaded (illegally or otherwise) since not long after the invention of the 56k modem. All those games that could have costed me up to $60 each (ok, many of them are available for 69p on the iOS app store, but that's not the point of this). Someone cook up some random numbers relating to average wage, multiply by how many years it's been since the 56k modem, and you'll know roughly how much money I saved by being a pirate.

Now look at how many games are on my Steam list (238 for those who don't know my Steam account). Look at the number of installed apps on my iPad (196 for those who care). Look at the number of games in my Vita case (7), my 3DS case (13) and my bookcases (I have 2 in my room, one full of books, the other full of games and anime, and another full bookcase downstairs with older games and some BluRays). And that number rises every month.

I hereby declare that by my being a pirate, it has enabled me to buy more games than other kids/students/workers in my age group (under 25)! One could even say it has had a positive effect on the gaming industry for bringing the cashflow to the devs that deserve it the most! Long live piracy (and the revenue it generates for the GOOD game devs)!


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## benbop1992 (Jan 10, 2013)

I pirate games, only cos i love gaming, but i just can't afford to pay for them. The only things i pirate for is DS and PSP.


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## KingBlank (Jan 10, 2013)

_Pirating is fine, if you can bother going through all the effort to do it._
*KingBlank -* A wise man


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Rydian said:


> There's two other options.
> 
> 1 - Buy your games at lower prices. I get stuff like Mass Effect 2 at $5 on a semi-regular basis from Steam, and sales even bring recent games down to $20 or less.
> 
> ...


 
Well I want to play the game when I see it out  I wont wait couple of years to play it.  And since I can, I will. None and nothing will stop me. As i said If price is regular I dont have problem. Bought the new CS recently 5.50 on Steam... 2 Copies of it. One for me and one for my bro. But 50$??? lol no...


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

synce said:


> I grew up in an age where buying a game gave you complete control of it. We had cheat codes, save files weren't tied to an account, and you weren't limited to X number of consoles or whatever (_currently_ this only applies to *digital games*). More importantly there was nothing cut from the game to be sold at a later date. So I think it's fine to pirate anything with DLC or DRM, doesn't matter if it's $60 or $6.


 
What are the digital games? Do analog games exist too?


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Ok then go pay for your games and in 20 years of paying u will have wasted like 20.000 dollars on games  have fun with that.


 
I'm sorry but it's statements like that that is just plain fucking retarded beyond all belief. That's like me saying "Have fun wasting money on a car and gas, and in 20 years you'll have wasted 50,000 while I walk and ride my bike for free.

You're not entitled to gaming at all. Stop acting like you are. If you're so hellbent on saving money, get rid of your internet, you don't need it.

60 bucks for a game isn't expensive at all especially if it gives me hours upon hours upon hours of gameplay. Borderlands 2, I'm glad I paid 100 bucks for the special edition because that game is still giving me hours of gameplay even after I beat it twice, I'm having a blast with it. And even then, 60 bucks isn't anything. For me it's no more than 4 hours of work. Stop making it sound as if companies are ripping you off and that you're being fucked.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> I'm sorry but it's statements like that that is just plain fucking retarded beyond all belief. That's like me saying "Have fun wasting money on a car and gas, and in 20 years you'll have wasted 50,000 while I walk and ride my bike for free.
> 
> You're not entitled to gaming at all. Stop acting like you are. If you're so hellbent on saving money, get rid of your internet, you don't need it.
> 
> 60 bucks for a game isn't expensive at all especially if it gives me hours upon hours upon hours of gameplay. Borderlands 2, I'm glad I paid 100 bucks for the special edition because that game is still giving me hours of gameplay even after I beat it twice, I'm having a blast with it. And even then, 60 bucks isn't anything. For me it's no more than 4 hours of work. Stop making it sound as if companies are ripping you off and that you're being fucked.


well for me is like 3 days of work here in greece  also the statement about the car is not valid... Car is a product that is used for work, and stuff that are needed for life... Gaming is an amusement.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> What are the digital games? Do analog games exist too?


 Yes, if you consider "analog" to be the opposite of digital.

However, with the term "digital" now meaning everything from software to cellular signals to "found on  the internet by monkeys"..... It just doesn't have that ring to it.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 10, 2013)

Sychophantom said:


> Yes, if you consider "analog" to be the opposite of digital.
> 
> However, with the term "digital" now meaning everything from software to cellular signals to "found on the internet by monkeys"..... It just doesn't have that ring to it.


was just trolling man... every video game is digital... there is no analog video game.....


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## xist (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> was just trolling man... every video game is digital... there is no analog video game.....


 
Analogue can be defined as a physical object or quantity, so analogue gaming as opposed to digital would equate to discs/carts vs data.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> was just trolling man... every video game is digital... there is no analog video game.....


 
Leave the trolling to the professionals.

I do remember early consoles using analog bits and bobs, but it was still a digital (if low-tech) signal being sent to the screen.

http://www.bitrebels.com/geek/first-analog-video-game-in-a-cardboard-box/ is likely the closest to a true analog video game, but there's no real video in the box.

The case could be made that those pinball games that had TVs in them with graphics could be an analog game, especially if hitting the ball into certain holes switched things on the screen. There was a pizza place near an old apartment that had one, but I spent more time trying to fuck the owner's daughter than playing the game.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 10, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> well for me is like 3 days of work here in greece  also the statement about the car is not valid... Car is a product that is used for work, and stuff that are needed for life... Gaming is an amusement.


 
Exactly, so why should you be entitled to play them if it's just amusement? You don't need the internet but yet you pay for that.


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## ReBirFh (Jan 10, 2013)

Fist of all, I pirate and also buy a lot of games and would buy more if the price was better.

One thing that bothers me when I see all the talking about how piracy hurts the developers is that the Devs and Publishers still have a very limited vision of the world, they could have a lot more income if they tried to to expand their markets to emerging countries with reasonable prices instead of staying converged on the exactly same regions since the early days of gaming.

Only now I'm hearing talks about games being dubbed to portuguese (other than soccer games) and I can say for sure that I didn't see a single official tv advertisment for games on the last 13 years (it was for the Dreamcast) we (all the countries ignored by the publishers) like games, we want to consume and buy their games but we are completely forgotten by the game industry.

Even if the absurd prices of the hardware were kept the same they could offset that with better priced software, I dont see any reasonable reason to be able to buy a brand new just released Blu-ray movie from Sony  for $30/$40 or the just released Windows 8 for $35 but have to resort to pay $100 or more for a single game on the same media and we don't have the benefit of bargain bins,buy 1 get 2 or discount coupons, all the support Nintendo gave me for buying the Wii, Nintendo DS, acessories and games was "Sorry, you can't redeem our Nintendo Club prizes because we don't send to Brasil" and if your expensive console malfunctions, good luck resorting to some shady and expensive place to fix your game because offcial support is nonexistent.

It's very easy for people from countries that always had games easily available to them to point fingers but you just need to look over you shoulders to the Anime/Manga scene to see people from these same countries having to resort to piracy through fansubs and scanlations because the content they want to pay for isn't easily available for them.

I pirate with no guilty and even do some marketing job for free if the game happen to be good (no need to pay me devs, I do it for free)


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## Nurio (Jan 10, 2013)

Sychophantom said:


> Leave the trolling to the professionals.
> 
> I do remember early consoles using analog bits and bobs, but it was still a digital (if low-tech) signal being sent to the screen.
> 
> ...


Early consoles output video through composite cables, right? That's an analog signal, if I'm not mistaken. But you're probably talking about a different kind of analog? Really, analog can mean so many things...
Anyway, I think jimskeet2002 didn't really understand the digital/analog thing. When people are talking about digital games, that's referring to anything not on a disc or cartridge or similar (meaning a downloaded copy). ...but xist already pointed that out.


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## lokomelo (Jan 11, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> Don't you mean avarage income in here was R$1049 instead of $1049? Also, you're not considering many people have families, so it's not like it's R$1049 for just one person


I meant USD 1049, not R$ 1049. And it is per capita not per family, and it is average, and it is counting poor people, and poor people do not buy video games anywhere on the world, so mid-class and rich can buy with no problem at all. Game is luxury anyway.

There is two arguments for piracy in Brazil (and in many other similar countries), one argument is the taxes. Bullshit, imported video game taxes in Brazil are 60% just like imported beer, and nobody cry out when buy imported beer (and people here buy A LOT of imported beer).

The other argument is that bullshit that is too expansive for Brazil's standard. The price here is something about 20% and 40% more expansive than USA, and the revenue of Video Games buyer here is (obviously) not the minimum wage.


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## Zetta_x (Jan 11, 2013)

I'd be happy to play old school SNES games. Not sure if I can speak for the majority, but I feel that game developers are intentionally wracking development costs up so they can push smaller game vendors off the map.


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## ReBirFh (Jan 11, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> I meant USD 1049, not R$ 1049. And it is per capita not per family, and it is average, and it is counting poor people, and poor people do not buy video games anywhere on the world, so mid-class and rich can buy with no problem at all. Game is luxury anyway.
> 
> There is two arguments for piracy in Brazil (and in many other similar countries), one argument is the taxes. Bullshit, imported video game taxes in Brazil are 60% just like imported beer, and nobody cry out when buy imported beer (and people here buy A LOT of imported beer).
> 
> The other argument is that bullshit that is too expansive for Brazil's standard. The price here is something about 20% and 40% more expansive than USA, and the revenue of Video Games buyer here is (obviously) not the minimum wage.


 
per capita is 1.345 Reais not dollars and per family is around 2.2k (again Reais not dollars) (http://www.tribunahoje.com/noticia/...sileiro-sobe-e-atinge-r-1345-revela-ibge.html), high mid class receiving betweeen R$641 and R$1.019 (mid class totals 54% of the population and excludes the poor from this percentage)(http://www.brasil.gov.br/noticias/a...nda-entre-r-291-e-r-1.019-familiar-per-capita ), You probably have really short memory because 1/2 years ago most games were priced beteween R$170 and R$250 and the cost of importation tax isn't 60%, it's 60% of the price of the product + shipping but for the buyer it actually is "Price of the game + price of shipping + 60% of the price of product + Shipping + 18% of ICMS that is calculated on top of price of product+shipping+importation tax" do a better research before spreading bullshit next time.


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## Valwin (Jan 11, 2013)

benbop1992 said:


> I pirate games, only cos i love gaming, but i just can't afford to pay for them. The only things i pirate for is DS and PSP.


 
yet you can affort the pirate hardware needed to pirated and the hardware


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 11, 2013)

Valwin said:


> yet you can affort the pirate hardware needed to pirated and the hardware


 
You can buy a DSi for $125 if I'm not mistaken. Considering DS games costs about $25 nowadays, you only need to buy 5 games to spend the same amount you spent in the hardware.
Now, if you buy a flashcart instead you will only pay at most $40 and will be able to play any game you like for free.

It's definetely cheaper to pirate.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> was just trolling man... every video game is digital... there is no analog video game.....


 
Actually I think few of the first video games were analog since they were played in an osciloscope and in a time where digital circuits weren't common.

Aside from that, there's no reason an analog video game couldn't exist... But it would probably not be economically viable.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 11, 2013)

Zetta_x said:


> I'd be happy to play old school SNES games. Not sure if I can speak for the majority, but I feel that game developers are intentionally wracking development costs up so they can push smaller game vendors off the map.


 
Then their plan backfired seeing as how the smaller developers are coming out with much better games for a fraction of the costs of big developers.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 11, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> You can buy a DSi for $125 if I'm not mistaken. Considering DS games costs about $25 nowadays, you only need to buy 5 games to spend the same amount you spent in the hardware.
> Now, if you buy a flashcart instead you will only pay at most $40 and will be able to play any game you like for free.
> 
> It's definetely cheaper to pirate.


If you pay $125 for a DSi nowdays, you're spending way too much.

I can get a DSi, new in box, right now for about 80. Actually considered it, but I have two plus an XL, and never play them.

It's always cheaper to pirate than buy. (I did not say steal. Piracy is copyright infringement, not physically stealing.)


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## someonewhodied (Jan 11, 2013)

To answer TC:
It is ok to pirate a game if you buy it afterwards. (and legal as a "Demo" in some places)
It is ok to pirate region-locked out-of-region games. (They don't count imports as sales anyways)
It is ok to pirate games that are no longer physically available.
It is NOT ok to pirate a game that is available digitally (Steam/XBL Marketplace/ect...)
It is NOT ok to pirate an in-region game that is still in production.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 11, 2013)

Lol.  Pirating is illegal.  There are no circumstances that make it any less illegal.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 11, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Lol. Pirating is illegal. There are no circumstances that make it any less illegal.


 
So is downloading mp3 files, but for some reason people choose to care about pirating games and not about pirating music


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## Zetta_x (Jan 11, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Then their plan backfired seeing as how the smaller developers are coming out with much better games for a fraction of the costs of big developers.


That's exactly what I'm saying. In my opinion, I completely agree with you. I enjoy these smaller games so much more than these bigger games. So while it's true that high development costs is a reason for high priced games, but I argue that it is not needed. I personally think that if you cannot produce a good game without spending millions, then you are not cut out for the gaming industry.


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## Gahars (Jan 11, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> So is downloading mp3 files, but for some reason people choose to care about pirating games and not about pirating music


 
People care, alright.


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## Sychophantom (Jan 11, 2013)

Gahars said:


> People care, alright.


Actually, the RIAA cares, which is only made up of people in the strictest biological sense. Most of them qualify as leeches otherwise.


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## ReBirFh (Jan 11, 2013)

I know this isn't exactly about piracy (and wikipedia not being the pinacle of realibility) but I recommend the following reading because actions like those are what hurts the industry much more than any piracy number they can pull out of their asses (by industry I mean the actual content makers - Developers) and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the same happens with the gaming industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Accounting


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

People care about pirating music, it's just a lot more widespread than games. I mean anyone can pirate music with no issues. It's not like games which require cracks, hacks, special hardware at times, all this stuff. The average computer illiterate can go on some torrent program, search for their album torrent, and download it with no issues. It's just a bunch of mp3s that can go on any music playing device and it doesn't require cracks or hacks.

Also, if you think a blind eye is turned to music piracy, maybe read up on like Napster.


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## air2004 (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> People care about pirating music, it's just a lot more widespread than games. I mean anyone can pirate music with no issues. It's not like games which require cracks, hacks, special hardware at times, all this stuff. The average computer illiterate can go on some torrent program, search for their album torrent, and download it with no issues. It's just a bunch of mp3s that can go on any music playing device and it doesn't require cracks or hacks.
> 
> Also, if you think a blind eye is turned to music piracy, maybe read up on like Napster.


That was so 90's .... For those of you that don't know what he is talking about ....imagine a girl , any girl that you wanted , she was the hottest thing you ever saw, and she was willing to do anything you ask . That was napster such a beautiful beast .....as for the piracy thing , you will become enslaved to it , I was a slave to it . Just collecting , never using , it gets old after awhile .....maybe you after awhile hasn't happened , but it will


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Also, if you think a blind eye is turned to music piracy, maybe read up on like Napster.


 
Yeah, I know. I used Napster back then! 

What I really meant was just how much the average people see pirating music as normal and acceptable, but when it comes to games they find it unacceptable. Once again, another case of double standards


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## Janthran (Jan 11, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> Yeah, I know. I used Napster back then!
> 
> What I really meant was just how much the average people see pirating music as normal and acceptable, but when it comes to games they find it unacceptable. Once again, another case of double standards


Or streaming TV. Nobody seems to care about that, it's just downloading that's bad.. Right?


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## whinis (Jan 11, 2013)

Zetta_x said:


> That's exactly what I'm saying. In my opinion, I completely agree with you. I enjoy these smaller games so much more than these bigger games. So while it's true that high development costs is a reason for high priced games, but I argue that it is not needed. I personally think that if you cannot produce a good game without spending millions, then you are not cut out for the gaming industry.


Games take millions for the most part anyways, you have anywhere from 5-10 (smaller games) to 250 people(larger games) people working on the games, for up to 15 years ( looking at you Duke Nukem) but closer to 2 or 3 as well as engines. If you require a publisher then thats an instant 30% off the top and then 15% for transaction cost. I don't believe the current budgets are sustainable however with $100-500 million dollar games including advertising, marketing and testing along with normal cost. Now I believe a nice $5 million is probably good for a large game and possibly $150,000 for small indie developer studios.

That being said I understand why people pirate and looking at the big picture I can't really say its wrong. Whether the pirate buys the game or not its not costing anyone money, many times you will get a better experience due to DRM, and when you consider just moving a game from one hard drive to another is technically copyright infringement and that letting friends play your games is like pirating whether they get to keep a copy or not. I believe a moral argument has been somehow made where the is none, just a few years ago(10) there would be outrage if you left out lan play or made a game require constant internet connection however now while there is outrage it seems to have polarized into either your a pirate if you don't want it or fanboy if you do.


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## BloodShed (Jan 11, 2013)

It's rather disappointing to see so many people that _refuse_ to buy games.  It's really kind of sad to see the ridiculous attempts to justify it.

I'm pretty much in the middle of the subject.  As I said earlier, I personally think that it's not a big deal as long as you're still purchasing the products you can afford.  But you people that flat out never purchase anything... do you seriously think that's okay?  Do you honestly believe some of these excuses?

I mean, people claiming that they would never buy a single game if piracy wasn't an option?  No, you'd be wrong.  You enjoy gaming enough to spend a good deal of time and money on a game console.  Yet, you're also saying that you would be fine with never gaming again?  Come on.  If you seriously believe that, I feel sorry for your obviously distorted sense of reality.  It's a legitimate psychosis to be so self-diluted that you'll invent any lie to justify your actions.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 11, 2013)

Companies implement strict DRM in their games and yet they have the balls to bitch about piracy. Double standard much?

That's like giving your car keys to a robber and then later hunt him down and ask why he stole your car.

What people do is their own business and I'm not going to tell people what to do, it's not my problem anyway.


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## klim28 (Jan 11, 2013)

My mind is telling me its bad. But my wallet says its ok.


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## The Milkman (Jan 11, 2013)

Its illegal. if you think its OK then that's your thing. But without a doubt its illegal. I pirate. But I usually do it because I can't be bothered to do it legit. For example, Wii games. All the Wii games I'm interested in, I can't find. I got to a store and see nothing but Shovel ware and Mario. So I go home, and download it. Because they had a chance to take my money and lost it. End of story. I'm not saying its right, I'm not saying its justifiable, and I'm not saying its the devs fault. I'm just saying if its earlier for me to pirate then I will pirate. Its just like with the DS. I loved that thing, played it like crazy. Eventually I learned of the R4 and started getting shit free. loved it. Then one day, it got unreasonably hard. I had to stick patch after patch, remove multi player or cool features. Battle anti piracy, watch Romsites get shut down before my eyes. I got sick of it and realized it was easiler to just buy the damn game. Same thing with Steam. I downloaded shitloads of games off Steam all for free. Then Garry's Mod got AP. I said fuck it, and made a new account and just decided to buy my games. Most of the games I own I came to own in that way. No doubt I'll hack my 3DS when a hack is out. But I digerse.

My point is, I don't care if its morally right or wrong and I'm not going to let a bunch of hypocritical fans(Like anyone actually BUYS goddamn songs) tell me I'm wrong. If its easy, I DO IT.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 11, 2013)

Zantigo said:


> Its illegal. if you think its OK then that's your thing. But without a doubt its illegal. I pirate. But I usually do it because I can't be bothered to do it legit. For example, Wii games. All the Wii games I'm interested in, I can't find. I got to a store and see nothing but Shovel ware and Mario. So I go home, and download it. Because they had a chance to take my money and lost it. End of story. I'm not saying its right, I'm not saying its justifiable, and I'm not saying its the devs fault. I'm just saying if its earlier for me to pirate then I will pirate. Its just like with the DS. I loved that thing, played it like crazy. Eventually I learned of the R4 and started getting shit free. loved it. Then one day, it got unreasonably hard. I had to stick patch after patch, remove multi player or cool features. Battle anti piracy, watch Romsites get shut down before my eyes. I got sick of it and realized it was easiler to just buy the damn game. Same thing with Steam. I downloaded shitloads of games off Steam all for free. Then Garry's Mod got AP. I said fuck it, and made a new account and just decided to buy my games. Most of the games I own I came to own in that way. No doubt I'll hack my 3DS when a hack is out. But I digerse.
> 
> My point is, I don't care if its morally right or wrong and I'm not going to let a bunch of hypocritical fans(Like anyone actually BUYS goddamn songs) tell me I'm wrong. If its easy, I DO IT.


 
That's the scary thing about it, is that it's too easy to do. Even better if you have a proxy or VPN to give you complete anonymity. Do I download games? Perhaps, but ones no longer in production, preferably Gamecube games. Why? Used games are f***ing expensive. Am I saying it's right? No, I'm not, but I think it's just as bad to pay an arm and a leg to obtain either an overpriced mint condition disc or an unusable secondhand disc without a proper cover from some eBay shyster. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  What I won't download is music, movies, PC games or other games currently in production and generating revenue to companies.


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## KidIce (Jan 11, 2013)

I'm a little surprised no one has brought his up, but a large part of my piracy is for archiving. I have as complete collections as I can manage for many past generation consoles and computers that I've ever had experience w/. Why? Because I think projects like SPS have merit (I was a contributor back when it was known as CAPS). I've lost tons of legitimately obtained software due to bit rot, leaking caps/batteries, corrosion, stupid parents and the other ravages of time or I've lost the physical copy protection (code wheel, dongle, etc).

When my copy of Paradroid died I was devastated. At that point almost all of the BBS's were gone, there wasn't a single retailer anywhere near me still selling C=64 software and almost no one had internet service (and the few that did were trying to get SLiRP running so they could use Mosaic from their shell accounts). eCommerce and proper search engines didn't really exist. It took me almost a decade before I could play that game again and that was only because some people were thoughtful enough dump it, archive it and to set up a site hosting it... And others were kind enough to make a C=64 emulator (my 1541 is long dead). And the fact of the matter is that if there hadn't been those sorts of people around I'm reasonably sure the game would have been lost forever. Do you really think EA or even Freefall (if they still existed) has a functioning copy of Archon or the source lying around that they could use to reproduce it?

Now I back-up/rip/dump everything I buy and download just about anything I can get my hands on so I can do the same as IPS/CAPS style projects. There are already tons of sites doing this, why should I? Those sites all have different levels of "completeness" and many of them disappear never to return or are still up but are no longer maintained. I've got several TB's of HD storage and limitless burnable DVD's, so why not? And when other sites are gone, know that I still have an IPF of Putty Squad* for UAE.

I'm no saint though when it comes to piracy, because beyond the above reason, I pirate for many of the same reasons everyone else has mentioned... None of which make it "OK" or legal. While I think some of the reasons put forward can be considered more ethical and maybe even justifiable to the public at large, it really just comes down to the individual deciding that they are OK w/ using commercial software that they didn't pay for.



Spoiler



*just the demo... No one has the full release. :-)


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## SickPuppy (Jan 11, 2013)

Game makers need to lower their prices. Lower prices = more sales. It don't take many brains to figure that out. A lot of people are out of a job, or their wages have not been keeping up with inflation or the cost of living. That means there is less money to spend on wants. Look at what happened when Nintendo lowered the price of the 3DS, sales went up. I'd go out today and buy a few Wii U games if they lowered the price on them, but that hasn't happened. Paying that high price is telling the manufacturer that you are fine with the price and that you support over priced games. I keep it to just a couple of new retail games a year. I'd buy more in a year if the price was lowered. Piracy is fine by me if the manufacturers keep the high prices going.


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## The Milkman (Jan 11, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> That's the scary thing about it, is that it's too easy to do. Even better if you have a proxy or VPN to give you complete anonymity. Do I download games? Perhaps, but ones no longer in production, preferably Gamecube games. Why? Used games are f***ing expensive. Am I saying it's right? No, I'm not, but I think it's just as bad to pay an arm and a leg to obtain either an overpriced mint condition disc or an unusable secondhand disc without a proper cover from some eBay shyster. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  What I won't download is music, movies, PC games or other games currently in production and generating revenue to companies.



It might be easy if your hell-bent on getting it, but I know for a fact it took me a far too unreasonable amount of time to find a working From the Abyss rom. Also, I actually disagree with you though, not in a sense you would think though, I think the only time its perfectly fine to pirate something is when its not making money. I don't think companies should even be allowed to actually have people pay for a GCN game once its made ridiculous amounts of cash like, a bazillion years ago! If they are REMAKING, not porting mind you, then its a whole other game if you ask me.


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## The Milkman (Jan 11, 2013)

SickPuppy said:


> Game makers need to lower their prices. Lower prices = more sales. It don't take many brains to figure that out. A lot of people are out of a job, or their wages have not been keeping up with inflation or the cost of living. That means there is less money to spend on wants. Look at what happened when Nintendo lowered the price of the 3DS, sales went up. I'd go out today and buy a few Wii U games if they lowered the price on them, but that hasn't happened. Paying that high price is telling the manufacturer that you are fine with the price and that you support over priced games. I keep it to just a couple of new retail games a year. I'd buy more in a year if the price was lowered. Piracy is fine by me if the manufacturers keep the high prices going.



Sales don't mean shit if your not making a profit on each one.


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## AudibleAdvent (Jan 11, 2013)

You really want to know why? 

Because I'll be damned if I ever pay $60 + 12% in taxes for a disc. It's outrageous. The price deters potential buyers. In actuality, it's the source of the issue. I bet you half the people on GBAtemp who choose to pirate games would stop pirating altogether if only the games were a third of the cost that they're now. Sadly, they're not, and until that day comes, I will continue to pirate games that I can't afford. Sure, I'll buy the occasional COD title for my playstation, but that's when I have no other choice. 

Publishers are greedy and they know it. They're churning as much as they can out of the typical consumer. They're making enough as it is, so I say let them be. Indie developers, on the other hand, deserve our support, especially when they price their games sensibly. For instance, I'd be happy to shell over $5-10 for Cave Story+, among other titles. 

So there you have it.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 11, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> It's rather disappointing to see so many people that _refuse_ to buy games. It's really kind of sad to see the ridiculous attempts to justify it.
> 
> I'm pretty much in the middle of the subject. As I said earlier, I personally think that it's not a big deal as long as you're still purchasing the products you can afford. But you people that flat out never purchase anything... do you seriously think that's okay? Do you honestly believe some of these excuses?
> 
> I mean, people claiming that they would never buy a single game if piracy wasn't an option? No, you'd be wrong. You enjoy gaming enough to spend a good deal of time and money on a game console. Yet, you're also saying that you would be fine with never gaming again? Come on. If you seriously believe that, I feel sorry for your obviously distorted sense of reality. It's a legitimate psychosis to be so self-diluted that you'll invent any lie to justify your actions.


 
I speak from experience, pirates doesn't think of the moral/ethics issues of downloading and playing backups. Just like smokers don't think of how non-smokers may be annoyed by their smoking or people playing really loud music don't think about how annoyed their neighboors must be with the music. Humans are self-centered by nature, it's just what they do.

I find your post to be quite judgemental... Be careful, sometimes you do shit and other will judge you the same way you judge them.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> It's rather disappointing to see so many people that _refuse_ to buy games. It's really kind of sad to see the ridiculous attempts to justify it.
> 
> I'm pretty much in the middle of the subject. As I said earlier, I personally think that it's not a big deal as long as you're still purchasing the products you can afford. But you people that flat out never purchase anything... do you seriously think that's okay? Do you honestly believe some of these excuses?
> 
> I mean, people claiming that they would never buy a single game if piracy wasn't an option? No, you'd be wrong. You enjoy gaming enough to spend a good deal of time and money on a game console. Yet, you're also saying that you would be fine with never gaming again? Come on. If you seriously believe that, I feel sorry for your obviously distorted sense of reality. It's a legitimate psychosis to be so self-diluted that you'll invent any lie to justify your actions.


Well if you spent $300+ on a console and the games cost around $70 then it does feel like a massive rip off considering the money spent on the console in the first place so its obvious the consumer would feel entitled to a few free games, its the devs that don't think like that and only think how to enlarge their already big wallet. If we are all made of money then i'm sure we would all buy as much games as we want but it doesn't work like that, I pirate older gen games because I do want to have money to buy newer games for my Vita and 3DS and I do buy games since I have 3 Vita games i'm planning on buying.

Also not gaming related but I found that even normal PC software to be a huge rip off I mean Photoshop CS6 is selling for around what $200+ and its just a photo editing software that should've been $20 and somehow i'm expected to pay for that when getting it for free is a high money saver.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Exactly, so why should you be entitled to play them if it's just amusement? You don't need the internet but yet you pay for that.


 
You see the problem is that I can play the games for free and so I do


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> You see the problem is that I can play the games for free and so I do


 
i actually severely hope you get caught so someone  will knock you off your high horse.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> i actually severely hope you get caught so someone will knock you off your high horse.


You can hope for that but this will never happen here in Greece . I still remember back in the day when I was still on junior school me buying from local stores burned PS copies for 3 euro per CD. The owner of the store was never arrested. You think they will arrest me for downloading games? They don't even arrest corrupt politicians here that sell the country to fucking Germans. So enjoy your money wasted on games while I will play the same games with you and enjoy my money on something else


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## Senbei Norimaki (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> You can hope for that but this will never happen here in Greece . I still remember back in the day when I was still on junior school me buying from local stores burned PS copies for 3 euro per CD. The owner of the store was never arrested. You think they will arrest me for downloading games? They don't even arrest corrupt politicians here that sell the country to fucking Germans. So enjoy your money wasted on games while I will play the same games with you and enjoy my money on something else


 
I remember those days when I use to import bootleg copies of Playstation games from Thailand for $5 each.  Good times.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Senbei Norimaki said:


> I remember those days when I use to import bootleg copies of Playstation games from Thailand for $5 each. Good times.


Yeah!!! good old times  Now hail rapidshare  but now rapidshare is broken too so we switched to easybytez


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Exactly, so why should you be entitled to play them if it's just amusement? You don't need the internet but yet you pay for that.


So apparently playing and enjoying gaming is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality.

Is it that wrong to not let everyone be involved regardless of how they obtained their game, when someone else pirates does someone magically appear and punch you in the face? no that doesn't happen, it doesn't affect you personally so why bother standing on that high horse yourself and dictate what others should and shouldn't do because it doesn't fit in your perfect little world. If somebody pirates then who really cares cause i'm sure they have their own reasons why they do it.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> So apparently playing and enjoying gaming is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality.


Everything is always for the rich  Oh and I do not consider my self poor. But if i am gonna spend say 1.000 dollars this year for my gaming hobby i prefer to spend them on a new I5 processor, a new motherboard, new ram and a gtx670 for my pc and enjoy any game out there, than to waste them on buying the games and struggle to play them on my previous core2duo and gtx295


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## Senbei Norimaki (Jan 11, 2013)

Boo hoo, the executives sitting on the boards at the video games companies will have a smaller bonus this quarter and not be able to buy there mistress a new fur coat because some nerds pirated their games.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> *So apparently playing and enjoying gaming is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality.*
> 
> Is it that wrong to not let everyone be involved regardless of how they obtained their game, when someone else pirates does someone magically appear and punch you in the face? no that doesn't happen, it doesn't affect you personally so why bother standing on that high horse yourself and dictate what others should and shouldn't do because it doesn't fit in your perfect little world. If somebody pirates then who really cares cause i'm sure they have their own reasons why they do it.


You said it, not me.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Everything is always for the rich  Oh and I do not consider my self poor. But if i am gonna spend say 1.000 dollars this year for my gaming hobby i prefer to spend them on a new I5 processor, a new motherboard, new ram and a gtx670 for my pc and enjoy any game out there, than to waste them on buying the games and struggle to play them on my previous core2duo and gtx295


This is my point. I'm not saying i'm poor but i'm not rich either and why should I somehow be restricted from playing games when I can still get them and its not like I don't spend any money I still have to buy the console to play it on and newer consoles aren't hacked so you can't pirate so I do buy games until I don't have to anymore and that is going to be several years down the road. 

I know how you feel. 



Senbei Norimaki said:


> Boo hoo, the executives sitting on the boards at the video games companies will have a smaller bonus this quarter and not be able to buy there mistress a new fur coat because some nerds pirated their games.


Lol, this is how I feel whenever I see a company say "piracy is killing us" when a few months later it got reported that they sold millions of their new game.



ShadowSoldier said:


> You said it, not me.


You didn't have to say to mean what I said. By telling others that they need to stop pirating and buy all their games is just another way of saying your poor so you don't deserve to have gaming as a hobby.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> This is my point. I'm not saying i'm poor but i'm not rich either and why should I somehow be restricted from playing games when I can still get them and its not like I don't spend any money I still have to buy the console to play it on and newer consoles aren't hacked so you can't pirate so I do buy games until I don't have to anymore and that is going to be several years down the road.
> 
> I know how you feel.
> 
> ...


Again, I said no such thing so stop saying I did. I said that most pirates who pirate, they simply can't afford it to buy games, or some on here go out and buy the games after. But this guy alone is acting as if he's entitled to the games. He seems to think that because of some stupid government bullshit reasons he brought up and how it's not fair and how he's always getting ripped off and blah blah blah, that that somehow entitles him to games, which it does not. He also goes off how about how we're wasting money buying games when we can pirate them, and then in like 20 years or so he'll be laughing at all who bought games. Then he goes off about how he'll never ever get caught and all that stupid cocky shit that has been said multiple times by people who got caught. Like I said, I don't give a shit if people pirate games, but he, or you, or me are in any way entitled to games at all.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Ok guys to finish with this topic....
If any of you meet all of the following requirements:
Doesn't have a single downloaded MP3
Uses only purchased software, (Not a single downloaded pirated game, not a single version of windows downloaded, not a single software pirated (ex photoshop etc....)
Pays the artist for any image that he downloads on his pc, since they are copyrighted too...
Doesn't watch movies to friend's house, or Doesn't play any game on a friend's console or pc, or doesn't listen to music on friend's house
Didn't ever hack any of his consoles
(I am sure there are more requirements I can find that all of you have violated  but I don't waste my time now to find them)
Then you are able to talk to us about piracy and how wrong it is...
If not just STFU and enjoy piracy and its glorious rewards like all of us do and don't feel ashamed to do it.
Nough said on this topic.
I have some hundreds of GB of pirated games to waste my time on.
Cya


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Again, I said no such thing so stop saying I did. I said that most pirates who pirate, they simply can't afford it to buy games, or some on here go out and buy the games after. But this guy alone is acting as if he's entitled to the games. He seems to think that because of some stupid government bullshit reasons he brought up and how it's not fair and how he's always getting ripped off and blah blah blah, that that somehow entitles him to games, which it does not. He also goes off how about how we're wasting money buying games when we can pirate them, and then in like 20 years or so he'll be laughing at all who bought games. Then he goes off about how he'll never ever get caught and all that stupid cocky shit that has been said multiple times by people who got caught. Like I said, I don't give a shit if people pirate games, but he, or you, or me are in any way entitled to games at all.


I never said you said it but its easily the impression you get from reading what you said.  Nonetheless it won't change if he thinks he won't get caught then thats his thinking and if his way to rationalize what he does is by somehow blaming the government then by all means it doesn't make a difference to any else expect him. Well to be fair from a financial point of view if you could get the get the game for free then I hardly see why you wouldn't, apart from collector's editions if I could pirate al my games then I would because I did save up and spent a lot on the console.

Although I never said I was entitled to get any games for free and I don't think anyone here says that but to be fair after spending a few hundred on the console I would like a few games for free instead of letting companies and retailers overcharge me.



jimskeet2002 said:


> Ok guys to finish with this topic....
> If any of you meet all of the following requirements:
> Doesn't have a single downloaded MP3
> Uses only purchased software, (Not a single downloaded pirated game, not a single version of windows downloaded, not a single software pirated (ex photoshop etc....)
> ...


As true as this is putting it this way is a little arrogant. I mean I only pirate because of financial issues and some benifits from having the ISO instead of the actual disk like bypassing DRM or extra mods etc but apart from that I would happily buy games.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> As true as this is putting it this way is a little arrogant. I mean I only pirate because of financial issues and some benifits from having the ISO instead of the actual disk like bypassing DRM or extra mods etc but apart from that I would happily buy games.


 
Truth is hard  Everyone pirated for his own reasons. Also anyone is free to buy what ever he wants. But when little kids that are brainwashed from companies and governments talk to me about how bad piracy is and how wrong I am and they are the good ones that support developers so they don't go bankrupt I just want to pull my arm off so I have something to throw at them.... I am really enraged when I see how easily are people manipulated by media...


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

lokomelo said:


> What country do you live? If it is Brazil it is not true at all. Avarage income here was $1049 in 2011, probabily it is even high now in 2013. A game here, for example, Mario Kart 7 is U$63.95 / GBP 39.60 (or R$ 129.99). So I dont get your point. For me this value is not so high.
> 
> Your argument was valid back on 1994, when the minumum wage was R$ 70.00 per month and a game was R$ 60.00, but now things are VERY different. But on MS Dos times, piracy was a rule, at least here.


 
So the average it's not $400, it's $500. and a game cost more than 10% of that and you don't see it as expensive.

I see it because i have other things to pay (house, taxes, food, school), but i buy my games when i can or can't pirate, like 3ds games and discount games on steam and gog.com.

True, in 1994, it's was hard to buy games, as you said, the minimun was 70 and a game was 60, but back then we had a lot of games to rent. Now that the minimun is R$690 (US$ 345) and games cost R$130 (US$70) and you have almost no place to rent a game, it became easy ? a console that is U$199 cost US400 or more.


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## BloodShed (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> So apparently playing and enjoying gaming is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality.


What??  Is this a serious comment?  You aren't _entitled_ to be entertained for free on the backs of hard working people.  Videogames are not a necessity.  We're not talking about feeding the poor here.

Do you also complain to Lamborghini because they aren't sold at a price that everyone can afford?  What kind of ridiculous thinking is that?



jimskeet2002 said:


> But when little kids that are brainwashed from companies and governments talk to me about how bad piracy is and how wrong I am and they are the good ones that support developers so they don't go bankrupt I just want to pull my arm off so I have something to throw at them.... I am really enraged when I see how easily are people manipulated by media...


Jimskeet, do you have some kind of disorder?  You think there's a conspiracy to incorrectly convince the world that piracy is wrong?  In fact, you honestly think that it's perfectly acceptable to never purchase a single game for this reason?  Wow.

Look, I happen to be a software developer.  I can tell you there's a significant amount of work that goes into making these products.  If you enjoy a game, there's a lot of talented people that deserve to be paid.  In what alternate reality do you live in that you can sit there and tell us that these people deserve nothing and it's a conspiracy to suggest they do.  You seem to think that they should be working tirelessly for your entertainment as some sort of unpaid slaves.  Am I right?

I mean, fuck those guys and their families!  Who cares if they have kids to support!  What a bunch of crazy lies to suggest that anyone should actually pay them!  Yeah!  Down with government!

I mean, even as a developer, it doesn't really bother me if you said you pirate some games (as long as you buy the ones you like when you can).  The thing that bothers me is to see your irrational opinion that software should never be supported because you'd rather spend your available money on something else (like hardware).  I doubt you'd have the same opinion if someone told you your job and skills are worthless and should be provided to everyone for free.

You define the word "selfishness".


EDIT: Also, I just want to clarify again for everyone... I can also agree that brand new games are overpriced.  Fine; don't buy it for $60 when it comes out.  Buy it when the price drops to something you prefer!  That's what I started doing.  I buy the games when they drop to somewhere around $20-40 (depending on the game)


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> Jimskeet, do you have some kind of disorder? You think there's a conspiracy to incorrectly convince the world that piracy is wrong? In fact, you honestly think that it's perfectly acceptable to never purchase a single game for this reason? Wow.
> 
> Look, I happen to be a software developer. I can tell you there's a significant amount of work that goes into making these products. If you enjoy a game, there's a lot of talented people that deserve to be paid. In what alternate reality do you live in that you can sit there and tell us that these people deserve nothing and it's a conspiracy to suggest they do. You seem to think that they should be working tirelessly for your entertainment as some sort of unpaid slaves. Am I right?
> 
> ...


If you read my previous posts you will realize that I am not saying that they don't deserve to get paid. I am saying that they deserve to get paid IF they price their products correctly for ME. For you that you might make 5000$ per month 50$ per game is a good price, for me that i make ~600 IT IS NOT. So they do not deserve to get 1/12 of my salary for a game. Do you get my point?

And I am not up for waiting for a price to go to normal standards so I can play the game... Since they feel like overpricing their products then I feel like pirating. Simple as that


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> What?? Is this a serious comment? You aren't _entitled_ to be entertained for free on the backs of hard working people. Videogames are not a necessity. We're not talking about feeding the poor here.
> 
> Do you also complain to Lamborghini because they aren't sold at a price that everyone can afford? What kind of ridiculous thinking is that?


You do know there is a big difference between a luxury car and gaming right?

I'm also not entitled to be ripped off by people who assume they know better just because they work in the industry and be fed lies saying that piracy is the most evil thing on earth and who ever does it need to be sued for a ridiculous amount as some sort of "compensation". Heres my stand because this happened to me last year; I needed Photoshop for homework from school and it costs over $200 or was that $300, I forgot, so now I should've wasted my money on a program that can only do 1 thing and thats photo editng or pirate it because its a huge rip off and I need it for school I chose to pirate it and it does the exact same bloody thing.

I never said i'm entitled to get games for free, I said I can get the for free so why should I bother with some rich company's sob story about them not making that 2 billion dollars they wanted but only making 1 billion. Just so you know I do buy games but when the times comes that a console is hacked and can play downloaded ROMs/ISOs, its there that I stop buying unless it is a collector's edition or some additional stuff fr the game.


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## lestatbytes (Jan 11, 2013)

Senbei Norimaki said:


> Boo hoo, the executives sitting on the boards at the video games companies will have a smaller bonus this quarter and not be able to buy there mistress a new fur coat because some nerds pirated their games.


 
and grit their teeth while the _orcs_ rejoice for free roms, its gonna happen whether you like it or not. Its just how it is, despite the endless debates about whose/whats right or wrong. O_rcs_ will always pirate games, regardless of _high priest _constant warnings or BS_. _


Weird my skin is somewhat green.D:


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

So, if game is not for the poor people, why bother if poor people pirate games ? they will not buy it anyway, therefore they don't count on the market.

And i totally agree with Jimskeet, who doesn't have pirate software installed on PC ?

Finally, i'm in the middle, because i do buy games, when it is cool enough to belong in my collection.


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## BloodShed (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I am saying that they deserve to get paid IF they price their products correctly for ME. For you that you might make 5000$ per month 50$ per game is a good price, for me that i make ~600 IT IS NOT. So they do not deserve to get 1/12 of my salary for a game. Do you get my point?


I get that!  Like I'm saying, buy the game when the price is what you want it to be!  If publishers see a huge spike in sales when it drops to a certain level, it can only help to encourage them to drop the price.  Hell, games go on sale on Steam all the time for $5.  How can you say you can afford a GTX670 but not a $5 game??

Instead, what I kept seeing in your previous posts is that you never buy any games, that buying games is a waste of money, and that you would rather selfishishly buy the things you can't get for free.  Then, you sum it all up that anyone saying otherwise is a manipulated kid.



jimskeet2002 said:


> And I am not up for waiting for a price to go to normal standards so I can play the game...


It's just my own opinion, but that's why I say it's not a big deal to pirate if you eventually buy the games you enjoy.  You're not willing to pay $60.  I can agree.  So, who cares if you play the game a bit earlier?  But it seems pretty clear that you have no interest in ever buying any games... no matter what price it sells for.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> I get that! Like I'm saying, buy the game when the price is what you want it to be! If publishers see a huge spike in sales when it drops to a certain level, it can only help to encourage them to drop the price. Hell, games go on sale on Steam all the time for $5. How can you say you can afford a GTX670 but not a $5 game??
> 
> Instead, what I kept seeing in your previous posts is that you never buy any games, that buying games is a waste of money, and that you would rather selfishishly buy the things you can't get for free. Then, you sum it all up that anyone saying otherwise is a manipulated kid.
> 
> ...


That is not true. Have bought a 3ds, kid icarus (liked it a lot but after finishing it i wish i didn't buy it cause 50euro is kinda too much.....), several nitendo shop games and couple of PC games. Diablo 3, Guildwars 2 and Heroes of Newerth. The only purchases i feel was worth my money was diablo 3 since i made 400$ allready out of it and heroes of newerth since i ve been playing it since 2009 and I still play it very often. Bought guildwars 2 with money I got from Diablo 3. I though I got money from gaming so why not spend some of them on gaming too. But that's it... I wont pay 50$ for battlefield 3 that i finish it in 5 days... If they were selling it for 10 dollars ( which is actually what is really worth ) then I would maybe buy that too. And only because it has multiplayer... Else it wouldn't worth even the 10$
Also the companies won't do what you say. Do you know why? Cause there are too many people with lots of money that will buy them for 50 and 60 and even 100 and more for collectors editions and stuff... So they want to milk them first... After milking them, they decide to drop the prices so they milk the rest of the guys that are willing to pay less


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## BloodShed (Jan 11, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> So, if game is not for the poor people, why bother if poor people pirate games ? they will not buy it anyway, therefore they don't count on the market.


I can agree.  A lot of people call piracy "theft" but that's only partially true.  Unlike say... stealing the Lamborghini from my previous example, there's no loss of product.  You are not taking the product away from another paying customer and, if you were never going to buy it anyway, there's no financial impact.

Now, if you CAN afford it and if you enjoy the game but still refuse to ever buy it... it's unethical and selfish.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

People here are forgetting that video games are not essentials - they are not necessary for survival. Gaming is a luxurious hobby, not a necessity. It's understandable when someone seizes posession of a loaf of bread because he or she had to to survive - not so much when someone obtains and uses software which he or she is not entitled to use. If you don't have a license for the software, you're not supposed to use it, and that's that. Piracy is not theft, it is wrong though - any counter-arguments are just poor attempts at justifying illegal activities.

Now, I'm not going to lecture anyone - I pirate things too, but at the very least I'm aware that it's the wrong thing to do. Be true to yourself and accept that it is.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> People here are forgetting that video games are not essentials - they are not necessary for survival. Gaming is a luxurious hobby, not a necessity. It's understandable when someone seizes posession of a loaf of bread because he or she had to to survive - not so much when someone obtains and uses software which he or she is not entitled to use. If you don't have a license for the software, you're not supposed to use it, and that's that. Piracy is not theft, it is wrong though - any counter-arguments are just poor attempts at justifying illegal activities.
> 
> Now, I'm not going to lecture anyone - I pirate things too, but at the very least I'm aware that it's the wrong thing to do. Be true to yourself and accept that it is.


Yes it is wrong for companies.
It is right for me and I guess for many others though.  there are always 2 faces of the same coin.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Yes it is wrong for companies.
> It is right for me and I guess for many others though.  there are always 2 faces of the same coin.


Wrong for companies? It's wrong from the _moral point of view_ first and foremost - you're taking advantage of the developer's hard work without paying a contribution for it. You're not paying credit.



Just Another Gamer said:


> So apparently playing and enjoying gaming is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality.


It's not unfair, it's not tragic and it certainly isn't enforcing class unequality - it's tough love.

I'd love to "enjoy" a Lamborghini but I can't afford one - that's life. I have to deal with it. I can save up for one if I _really_ want one - I have that option. Gamers have the option to _save up_ for their games.

*EDIT:* I just realized someone used the same argument... along with the same brand of cars... what a coincidence, people must really like Lamborghinis...


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## BloodShed (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> That is not true. Have bought...


Cool.  That's all I'm saying.  Your previous posts come across differently.  Maybe it's just my interpretation.

I'm not trying to change anyones opinion of what they think games are worth.  I simply think that people should pay for it if they can honestly afford a price they feel it's worth.

Will people pirate games they can afford anyway?  Of course.  People will also shoplift and steal.  There's no changing that.  But they can't go around pretending it's okay either.



jimskeet2002 said:


> Also the companies won't do what you say. Do you know why? Cause there are too many people with lots of money that will buy them for 50 and 60 and even 100 and more for collectors editions and stuff... So they want to milk them first... After milking them, they decide to drop the prices so they milk the rest of the guys that are willing to pay less


Believe me, I'm with you.  I posted earlier about these greedy publishers shoveling junk to rape the fan base.  I was suckered into it for years.  Even now, I know sometimes I can't resist.  But, for the most part, I stopped buying games right away because I don't want to support this pricing trend either.  I have no love for these board members that decide the pricing model.  They also soak up all the profits.  Maybe if they didn't pay themselves millions every year, they could easily sell games at a more reasonable price.

Obviously, that opinion doesn't apply to independent developers.  But I also can't think of a single independent game that ever tried to sell for $60.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Wrong for companies? It's wrong from the _moral point of view_ first and foremost - you're taking advantage of the developer's hard work without paying a contribution for it. You're not paying credit.
> 
> 
> It's not unfair, it's not tragic and it certainly isn't enforcing class unequality - it's tough love.
> ...


 
While the developer isn't talking advantage of our human nature and our need to have fun with games when they price it for 60 dollars? And if you could download a lamborghini right out of your apartment for free I am pretty sure you would.


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## Rydian (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> While the developer isn't talking advantage of our human nature and our need to have fun with games when they price it for 60 dollars?


There you go again, assuming that humans NEED to play videogames.

What the HELL do you think humans were doing for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before videogames existed?

NOT PLAYING THEM.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

BloodShed said:


> Cool. That's all I'm saying. Your previous posts come across differently. Maybe it's just my interpretation.
> 
> I'm not trying to change anyones opinion of what they think games are worth. I simply think that people should pay for it if they can honestly afford a price they feel it's worth.
> 
> ...


 
I am not talking about independent developers. I am talking about the games huge companies produce like EA, Ubi etc....
Independent developers have to start small for 2 reasons.
1 their product will not be as polished as big companies products
2 they don't have the fanboys to milk
So they start small with the hope to get in there.
I don't have problem buy such games. I paid beta entrance to path of exile. 10$ enjoyed the game more than Diablo 3 that costed me 60....


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Rydian said:


> There you go again, assuming that humans NEED to play videogames.
> 
> What the HELL do you think humans were doing for THOUSANDS OF YEARS before videogames existed?
> 
> NOT PLAYING THEM.


 
Once you start playing games believe me it becomes a need to you  It is a way of amusement and a very addicting one. So it becomes a need eventually... Can you imagine yourself now not having a PC or video games or internet????


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> People here are forgetting that video games are not essentials - they are not necessary for survival. Gaming is a luxurious hobby, not a necessity. It's understandable when someone seizes posession of a loaf of bread because he or she had to to survive - not so much when someone obtains and uses software which he or she is not entitled to use. If you don't have a license for the software, you're not supposed to use it, and that's that. Piracy is not theft, it is wrong though - any counter-arguments are just poor attempts at justifying illegal activities.
> 
> Now, I'm not going to lecture anyone - I pirate things too, but at the very least I'm aware that it's the wrong thing to do. Be true to yourself and accept that it is.


 
What is the difference, you do and you say "it is wrong, i am fully aware of that", but you get angry when someone do the same thing but say "it's ok to do, i just don't care for companies" ?

On top of that, this section of the site is "hacking and homebrew". Nintendo doesn't want 3DS to be hacked, neither to play homebrew, or else they had made a open source console, that everyone can code on it.

So why the anger ?


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## Rydian (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Once you start playing games believe me it becomes a need to you  It is a way of amusement and a very addicting one. So it becomes a need eventually... Can you imagine yourself now not having a PC or video games or internet????


That's just being a spoiled kid.  You do not need video games to survive.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> While the developer isn't talking advantage of our human nature and our need to have fun with games when they price it for 60 dollars? And if you could download a lamborghini right out of your apartment for free I am pretty sure you would.


Takes advantage of the need to have fun? You can have fun with a deck of cards, you can have fun in the local community center, you can go for a walk, you can play with sticks and stones - there is no physical nor mental need for video games in your life - it's just your fancy. Besides, the developer does not price the product - the publisher does. The price has to cover development costs which are steadily increasing, distribution, production, packaging, wages and so-on and so-forth, and if they want to sell their product for $60 then they can because it's their product and you're in no position to question that - that's the price they want for it.

Your counter is incredibly poor - what you're saying is "I don't want to pay $60 for a game so I'm going to pirate it instead" - how is that in any way validating your point? If anything, it shows even more strongly how little you care about giving credit to the creators of the media you're enjoying. Creators, because software doesn't grow on trees - it has to be created, and that takes money, time and effort which you are unwilling to give credit for.



Rydian said:


> That's just being a spoiled kid. You do not need video games to survive.


Exactly. People play video games because they like them, not because they need them. If someone has the mental _need_ to play video games then it's a problem and he or she should visit a clinic - it is a diagnosable addiction these days after all.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Rydian said:


> That's just being a spoiled kid. You do not need video games to survive.


lol... did i say u need them to survive? I didn't say that games are essential to survive but they are a need for many of us. It is a way to have fun and don't forget that the point of life is to have as much fun as you can. and i am neither spoiled nor a kid....


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

ok guys you clearly are brainwashed... I am out of here... You can keep paying for everything you have installed in your PCs and every game on your consoles. I won't I am a pirate and I am proud that i have this way to play what I can't afford. CYA


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> lol... did i say u need them to survive?* I didn't say that games are essential to survive but they are a need for many of us. It is a way to have fun and don't forget that the point of life is to have as much fun as you can.* and i am neither spoiled nor a kid....


So... you're somewhere in-between of a hedonist and an addict?


jimskeet2002 said:


> ok guys you clearly are brainwashed... I am out of here... You can keep paying for everything you have installed in your PCs and every game on your consoles. I won't I am a pirate and I am proud that i have this way to play what I can't afford. CYA


Laughable. You retreat from an argument for one reason and one reason only - because you don't have a counter, and yet you have the nerve to insult others calling them brainwashed? Well done. I guess I'm brainwashed because I think that not paying for the products I use is wrong. By the way, I pirate too, I'm just aware that it's morally wrong.


Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> So why the anger ?


No anger, just tough love.


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## Rydian (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> lol... did i say u need them to survive? I didn't say that games are essential to survive but they are a need for many of us. It is a way to have fun and don't forget that the point of life is to have as much fun as you can. and i am neither spoiled nor a kid....


That makes games a "want", not a "need".

A "need" is something that's require for survival, because without it you'd die.
A "want" is something you can live without, but would enjoy having.

Clearly as humans have been living without videogames for thousands of years of recorded history, video games are not a need.

Pick up a dictionary sometime.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Rydian said:


> That makes games a "want", not a "need".
> 
> A "need" is something that's require for survival, because without it you'd die.
> A "want" is something you can live without, but would enjoy having.
> ...


They have been living without money too for thousands of years... Then why do big companies need mine for???


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> They have been living without money too for thousands of years... Then why do big companies need mine for???


You think that if you say "big companies", you clean your hands and fight The Man, but that's not true. You can de-personalize developers as much as you want, but at the end of the day, "big companies" are composed of thousands of little people, much like yourself.


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## Rydian (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> They have been living without money too for thousands of years... Then why do big companies need mine for???


Dude, humans have been minting coins for well over 2000 years, and before that they did trades using other things of value.

Do you just sleep through history class each day or something?


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

I admire the work on the gaming industry that big companies do... I am just not willing to get ripped off for it


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I admire the work on the gaming industry that big companies do... I am just not willing to get ripped off for it


Don't play video games then - best method of not getting ripped off in this context. Or at least accept the fact that piracy is morally wrong.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

That would be like "terms and conditions to piracy".

did you agree to accept the fact that you are taking food of the table of the big companies ?

I agree. therefore i can pirate my stuff.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> That would be like "terms and conditions to piracy".
> 
> did you agree to accept the fact that you are taking food of the table of the big companies ?
> 
> I agree. therefore i can pirate my stuff.


You're not taking anyone's food, you're not stealing, no wallet suffers in the process of piracy as long as you wouldn't buy the game without having the option to pirate it, so that's not a very good allegory. You're just doing something morally wrong, using media which you are not entitled to use as you did not purchase a right to use them.


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## Saddamsdevil (Jan 11, 2013)

Oh boy...

Piracy is one of *those* subjects.

There is no objective view on it, because the definition of theft does not *really* cover this. In my opinion, from a purely subjective point of view, for something to get stolen, the physical copy needs to be taken from one person, so that that person suffers a loss. (inb4 people disagreeing, I gave enough disclaimers)

I find myself buying games I like after a while, maybe because they're on sale and I can afford them, or maybe because I enjoyed the game enough for me to warrant paying £40 or more on a game. 

I don't think piracy is okay, but that does not stop me from downloading a game I am excited to play, granted that most of the time I buy it later anyway. 

Except the Sims, no one should buy the Sims.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> You're not taking anyone's food, you're not stealing, no wallet suffers in the process of piracy as long as you wouldn't buy the game without having the option to pirate it, so that's not a very good allegory. You're just doing something morally wrong, using media which you are not entitled to use as you did not purchase a right to use them.


 
I agree with you, and anyone that download a game is fully aware of that, but that doesn't change the fact that a sw that is downloaded, is one less sell to the company. But if everyone pirate here, what changes if we state that is wrong or not ?

as i said, this is a section dedicated to discuss hacking and homebrew, and nintendo doesn't want none of that to happen on their console, they invested a lot of money on security and hackers are destroying their effort. everyone will love that for different reasons, and no one complains about the hack. No, everyone will say that if you buy a console, you can do whatever you want with it, right ?

Nintendo doesn't think that way.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> It's not unfair, it's not tragic and it certainly isn't enforcing class unequality - it's tough love.
> 
> I'd love to "enjoy" a Lamborghini but I can't afford one - that's life. I have to deal with it. I can save up for one if I _really_ want one - I have that option. Gamers have the option to _save up_ for their games.
> 
> *EDIT:* I just realized someone used the same argument... along with the same brand of cars... what a coincidence, people must really like Lamborghinis...


I hardly see it as tough love but rather greed. Publishers and retailers can sell games at a decent price and i'm sure consumers would be overjoyed. I know I would thrilled to see new games released at $40 locally and I would gladly buy it cause I know its worth the purchase but to release it at $60 to $80 I rather buy online or pirate if the former isn't available. Even more so on older gen consoles like the PSP and as much as I love it I can hardly justify paying $80 for a PSP game when its not even a collector's item or a bundle, so I rather pirate those games.

I made an example earlier with Photoshop and while its not a game just google it and see how much it costs and see how I can easily rationalize pirating it. I personally would gladly buy games for any console until it can be hacked and open to piracy and that could take years and I don't mind but I just get annoyed whenever people say its wrong and just play the "morals" or "ethics" card cause its the only thing that cna be played. 

Might be me but I don't have that moral thing that everyone else seem to have and while I justify my piracy as form of financial saving so I can buy other games I hardly see a real problem with it. Just to note I don't sit at home all day pirating games, I do it whenever I see something I like.


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## Valwin (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> While the developer isn't talking advantage of our human nature and our need to have fun with games when they price it for 60 dollars? And if you could download a lamborghini right out of your apartment for free I am pretty sure you would.


 
i can have fun for free using my hand


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> I hardly see it as tough love but rather greed. Publishers and retailers can sell games at a decent price and i'm sure consumers would be overjoyed. I know I would thrilled to see new games released at $40 locally and I would gladly buy it cause I know its worth the purchase but to release it at $60 to $80 I rather buy online or pirate if the former isn't available. Even more so on older gen consoles like the PSP and as much as I love it I can hardly justify paying $80 for a PSP game when its not even a collector's item or a bundle, so I rather pirate those games.
> 
> I made an example earlier with Photoshop and while its not a game just google it and see how much it costs and see how I can easily rationalize pirating it. I personally would gladly buy games for any console until it can be hacked and open to piracy and that could take years and I don't mind but I just get annoyed whenever people say its wrong and just play the "morals" or "ethics" card cause its the only thing that cna be played.
> 
> Might be me but I don't have that moral thing that everyone else seem to have and while I justify my piracy as form of financial saving so I can buy other games I hardly see a real problem with it. Just to note I don't sit at home all day pirating games, I do it whenever I see something I like.


 
But cost doesn't matter. This is a luxury, you can charge whatever you want for it because it's certainly not necessary. They only keep the prices as low as they do because they know any higher would alienate actual consumers.

Also, accounted for inflation, games today are cheaper than games from way back when.

I have no issue if someone says "I pirate because I can't afford games" so long as they don't try to justify it morally.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't know why you guys use this "if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!" statement if you guys use pirated stuff.


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## gifi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I admire the work on the gaming industry that big companies do... I am just not willing to get ripped off for it


You are truly, one of the stupidest human beings that I could ever expect to live on this planet.
Honestly, no matter how much gaming you do in your everyday life, it can and never will be a need. You can WANT it more than other things but you do not NEED it. (Note: I'm not referring to the post I quoted, that was just to notify you of the post)
Do you really think Game Programming was a job back when no games existed. Ofcourse it wasn't. Games never used to exist.
You have totally mixed up your own argument. You should have stated that human beings need entertainment. You know what existed before video games? Jokes, as well as many other forms of entertainment. Hell, you have a brain, therefore you have an imagination. An imagination can be a form of entertainment.

Anyway, to the topic at hand:
Piracy is illegal (In most of the world, I believe) so theoretically it is never alright to pirate. However breaking laws is a given in this world. Some laws obviously shouldn't be broken however some aren't as high on the ladder of importance. Having said that, depending on the perspective you look at it, piracy can be good and bad.

The law: You are not allowed to pirate therefore it is not ok to do so.
The Police: The police uphold the law but they also have their own brain and can control themselves so some will say that it's alright whilst others will continue to uphold the law.

I can keep listing perspectives, and if I did so, you'd notice that considering everyone is different, everyone has a different view point.

Basically, the law states that it is not ok to pirate.
So, even if you think, "Hmm, I'm low on cash and this awesome game is coming out" or "Hmm... This game won't be released in my country for 3 more years and it's out in that country" and you pirate it, it's illegal. No matter how you look at it, it's illegal.
Does that stop people doing it?
Ofcourse not, laws get broken every day. Not every citizen will follow them.
Pirates will always exist. (Not just out on the sea).
So, like I said, no matter how you look at it, it's illegal.
I pirate, I know many people who also pirate. I also know people who won't pirate a thing. They are the people who aren't breaking the law.

So what I'm saying is, no matter the situation, pirating is not ok. You can continue to do so though as many others also break laws and those behaviours won't stop anytime soon.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> I hardly see it as tough love but rather greed. _(stuff follows...)_


_...And?_

It's _their software_. They can price it however _they_ want. I don't think we're on the same page here, this is how the market works - you create a product, set its price according to what you, the creator think is apropriate and sell it. The fact that _you_ cannot afford it in no way justifies pirating it - there are alternative programs, some are even _free_ that are ready for the grabs. Photoshop is for professional designers who have the _money_ to afford the program. Greedy or not, it's their right to price their own product at a level they find appropriate.



Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> I don't know why you guys use this "if you can't pay, you shouldn't play!" statement if you guys use pirated stuff.


Nobody said _"you shouldn't"_ - the argument was whether it is morally right or wrong to pirate software that you cannot afford, and the answer to that is _"it's wrong"_ - the rest depends on whether it bothers you or not. Nobody's going to tell you to immediately stop pirating software or any other media, but when bullsh*t excuses come into play, be ready to be called up on them.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 11, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> Yeah, I know. I used Napster back then!
> 
> What I really meant was just how much the average people see pirating music as normal and acceptable, but when it comes to games they find it unacceptable. Once again, another case of double standards


That's quite the assumption.  What constitutes an "average person"?  I don't pirate anything.  Not music. Not games.  Not movies.  Not software.  Nothing.  Does that make me any less average?


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## sero (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> So apparently playing and enjoying gaming is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality.


 
This mentality is one of the unfortunate societal problems we face today.  You might as well have said, "So apparently having a ten bedroom house and enjoying 8,000 square feet of space is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality."

You may be entitled to equal opportunity but you are not entitled to equal results.  Games are expensive so people without as much money can't buy them.  That's fine.  The only reason it is up for a moral discussion is because the ability exists to acquire those games with little chance of legal repercussion.  I know it sucks that people don't all have nice things, but that's the way the world works.  It isn't a class warfare thing--it's the fact that in an economic system there are generally only two results: one where some people win and others lose based on opportunity, chance and drive (capitalism), or a system where everyone is given equal results achievable only by bringing down everyone to the lowest results level for the sake of equality (communism/socialism).

I'm getting a bit off on a tangent here but I don't think we should use class warfare/rich versus poor as an argument for why crime should be allowed.  Especially in a world where so many kids sit at home and do nothing when just a couple days a week mowing grass for neighbors would allow them to buy the newest and best game systems and games.  It's what I had to do growing up and I don't think it's screwed me up having to make my own way.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> _...And?_
> 
> It's _their software_. They can price it however _they_ want. I don't think we're on the same page here, this is how the market works - you create a product, set its price according to what you, the creator think is apropriate and sell it. The fact that _you_ cannot afford it in no way justifies pirating it - there are alternative programs, some are even _free_ that are ready for the grabs. Photoshop is for professional designers who have the _money_ to afford the program. Greedy or not, it's their right to price their own product at a level they find appropriate.


I don't think you realize that from the original company to the publisher then the retailer somehow the price suddenly gets jacked up for no reason apart from greed. I mean it could start off at a reasonable $50 then somehow become $80 in store and somehow that's reasonable? 
It still doesn't remove the option of pirating it either which is my point you can shove all the moral and ethical shit down people's throat all day and sure in 100 people you might change the mind of 1 person or even 2 but to expect people to feel guity about it is just plain stupid and weird. Also if you must know when you study any type of design at uni they want you to have a copy of photoshop for homework assignments and they really don't care if you pirate it or not but just saying pricing it in the hundreds for a photo editing program is nothing more than being a greedy bastard.



sero said:


> This mentality is one of the unfortunate societal problems we face today. You might as well have said, "So apparently having a ten bedroom house and enjoying 8,000 square feet of space is only for the rich and not everyone, way to enforce class equality."
> 
> You may be entitled to equal opportunity but you are not entitled to equal results. Games are expensive so people without as much money can't buy them. That's fine. The only reason it is up for a moral discussion is because the ability exists to acquire those games with little chance of legal repercussion. I know it sucks that people don't all have nice things, but that's the way the world works. It isn't a class warfare thing--it's the fact that in an economic system there are generally only two results: one where some people win and others lose based on opportunity, chance and drive (capitalism), or a system where everyone is given equal results achievable only by bringing down everyone to the lowest results level for the sake of equality (communism/socialism).
> 
> I'm getting a bit off on a tangent here but I don't think we should use class warfare/rich versus poor as an argument for why crime should be allowed. Especially in a world where so many kids sit at home and do nothing when just a couple days a week mowing grass for neighbors would allow them to buy the newest and best game systems and games. It's what I had to do growing up and I don't think it's screwed me up having to make my own way.


I'm not saying none of us have to work to get the stuff we want, I know I have to but that doesn't change that those who aren't so well off like I am don't always have cash to spend and if I want something I have to look at the alternatives and for gaming piracy is the alternative. I have no particular problem with it and if I had the opportunity to buy the game I want I would but like every other average person out there I have to work and save up for it.

I know what I said could be interpreted wrong but the whole moral point for me is just the rich man having a hissy fit because they aren't getting that billion they wanted. I'm not sure if you get my point since i'm shit with words.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

I agree with you foxi, excuse is bullshit and will not change the fact, but you can't deny that for everything we do there is a reason, there's a lot of factors that may or not lead someone to pirate. A reason for pirate is not bullshit and it not an excuse, some says: "I pirate because i don't want to pay", others because "the price is too high", or "because i think sw companies rip us off with that high prices".

There also beliefs, one can believe that piracy is not wrong even when they know that it is. In your beliefs you know it's illegal and no one is going to change that.

There's no reason for the pitchforks and hate just because someone thinks differently.

I use cracked sw, play roms and listen to MP3, and i don't like the business model in Brazil, that's why i pirate, i don't find it wrong, but i know it's not the right thing to do. and never gonna stop it.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> I don't think you realize that from the original company to the publisher then the retailer somehow the price suddenly gets jacked up for no reason apart from greed. I mean it could start off at a reasonable $50 then somehow become $80 in store and somehow that's reasonable?
> It still doesn't remove the option of pirating it either which is my point you can shove all the moral and ethical shit down people's throat all day and sure in 100 people you might change the mind of 1 person or even 2 but to expect people to feel guity about it is just plain stupid and weird. Also if you must know when you study any type of design at uni they want you to have a copy of photoshop for homework assignments and they really don't care if you pirate it or not but just saying pricing it in the hundreds for a photo editing program is nothing more than being a greedy bastard.
> 
> I'm not saying none of us have to work to get the stuff we want, I know I have to but that doesn't change that those who aren't so well off like I am don't always have cash to spend and if I want something I have to look at the alternatives and for gaming piracy is the alternative. I have no particular problem with it and if I had the opportunity to buy the game I want I would but like every other average person out there I have to work and save up for it.
> ...


I don't expect you to feel guilty, I expect you to accept the fact that what you're doing is not justifiable, and you're desperately trying to justify it. For all intents and purposes, Photoshop could cost $3000 and it would still be equally unjustifiable to pirate it because that's the price point set by the publisher and that's it.

I pirate stuff too, but at the very least I don't make up silly reasons as to why I do it - I just pirate stuff because it's convenient for me. It's highly likely that when I get a steady job I'll stop, even if for the sake of the benefits original copies have over pirated ones alone.

And I assure you, universities do not require you to have Photoshop unless you specifically sign up for a Photoshop course, in which case you should probably consider the fact that you'll need Photoshop beforehand. University-level education is optional and expensive, so no Columbus-level discoveries here. If they require you to have expensive software, they either provide you with a free copy you can borrow or give you a good deal for it. I'm at university _right now_ and guess what? We're using GIMP, which is free. So there, point nullified.


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## Rydian (Jan 11, 2013)

Since the topic came up...









> Time-lapse of a full digital painting illustration with Mypaint / Alchemy and Gimp on Linux. ( only free and open-source application compatible with other system too ; ex : Windows ).


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Since the topic came up...


BUT IT'S NOT PHOTOSHOP! T.T

//Le Sarcasm


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I don't expect you to feel guilty, I expect you to accept the fact that what you're doing is not justifiable, and you're desperately trying to justify it. For all intents and purposes, Photoshop could cost $3000 and it would still be equally unjustifiable to pirate it because that's the price point set by the publisher and that's it. I pirate stuff too, but at the very least I don't make up silly reasons as to why I do it - I just pirate stuff because it's convenient for me. It's highly likely that when I get a steady job I'll stop, even if for the sake of the benefits original copies have over pirated ones.
> 
> And I assure you, universities do not require you to have Photoshop. If they require you to have expensive software, they either provide you with a free copy you can borrow or give you a good deal for it. I'm at university _right now_ and guess what? We're using GIMP, which is free. So there, point nullified.


No I did justify it but it is only you who can't accept it. If it cost $3000 then that is even more reason to pirate it and shove it in the publisher's face that selling at a ridiculous price will just encourage people to pirate it, I assure you that the reason "because its convenient" is just as ridiculous to me as you saying me not paying the extra high price the publisher wants. 

So you are going to uni in Australia? Which one? Cause i'm going to Victoria Uni in Melbourne. Please do some actual research instead of basing everything on yourself.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> No I did justify it but it is only you who can't accept it. If it cost $3000 then that is even more reason to pirate it and shove it in the publisher's face that selling at a ridiculous price will just encourage people to pirate it, I assure you that the reason "because its convenient" is just as ridiculous to me as you saying me not paying the extra high price the publisher wants.
> 
> So you are going to uni in Australia? Which one? Cause i'm going to Victoria Uni in Melbourne. Please do some actual research instead of basing everything on yourself.


 
Photoshop is also a highly complex tool and almost an industry standard to an extent. There's a reason they charge so much for it.


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## Rydian (Jan 11, 2013)

The people who _require_ Photoshop for their job are the people who make a personal profit off of it anyways, or are in a professional environment where the company as a whole profits (and has licenses for the employees).

Like some of the screenshots and images we've seen from Nintendo for the Wii U have Photoshop (CS4/5) tagged in the EXIF data because the employees were given it to use for doctoring up images (as well as batch functions).


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> No I did justify it but it is only you who can't accept it. If it cost $3000 then that is even more reason to pirate it and shove it in the publisher's face that selling at a ridiculous price will just encourage people to pirate it, I assure you that the reason "because its convenient" is just as ridiculous to me as you saying me not paying the extra high price the publisher wants.
> 
> So you are going to uni in Australia? Which one? Cause i'm going to Victoria Uni in Melbourne. Please do some actual research instead of basing everything on yourself.


You don't seem to understand my point. I pirate because _idgaf_, I know it's wrong. You pirate because you think it's justifiable when the product you want is too expensive for you to buy. Only one of those approaches is ridiculous. You can't say that pirating something is "okay" just because _you_ think the price is too high, it's not up to _you_ to decide that kind of stuff. As it was said earlier, I might want to have a Lamborghini, but I'm not going to "acquire" one in an illegal fashion just because I can't afford one via normal channels.

Also, name your Course. I just Googled your Uni, having Photoshop is not mentioned as a _requirement_.


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## kristianity77 (Jan 11, 2013)

Does anyone on here who does Pirate get whats known as Pirates Curse?  I get it, hence why a console i really want with good games on I actually buy them


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Photoshop is also a highly complex tool and almost an industry standard to an extent. There's a reason they charge so much for it.


I never said its not a good program otherwise I wouldn't be told to use it but I still can't find the price to be resonable at all. I mean I found it at was it $1000 or something or something close to it.



Foxi4 said:


> You don't seem to understand my point. I pirate because _idgaf_, I know it's wrong. You pirate because you think it's justifiable when the product you want is too expensive for you to buy. Only one of those approaches is ridiculous. You can't say that pirating something is "okay" just because _you_ think the price is too high, it's not up to _you_ to decide that kind of stuff. As it was said earlier, I might want to have a Lamborghini, but I'm not going to "acquire" one in an illegal fashion just because I can't afford one via normal channels.
> 
> Also, name your Course. I just Googled your Uni, having Photoshop is not mentioned as a requirement in any of the courses.
> 
> .


There is a big difference between stealing a car and making a copy of something and using the copy. The only difference I see here is I know the law technically says its wrong but I have no morality regarding to feel anything towards it.

Of course it wouldn't say it as a requirement, its the lecturers that tell you afterwards when you start going to class. Also I believe it was digital media or something.


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## Foxi4 (Jan 11, 2013)

kristianity77 said:


> Does anyone on here who does Pirate get whats known as Pirates Curse? I get it, hence why a console i really want with good games on I actually buy them


I suppose I had it with the DS - I usually carried 100-or-so games on me and rarely played more than 5 out of'em. I ended up using the SD card for something else and putting a smaller one in the DS, then playing only the games I actually wanted to play.


Just Another Gamer said:


> There is a big difference between stealing a car and making a copy of something and using the copy. The only difference I see here is I know the law technically says its wrong but I have no morality regarding to feel anything towards it.
> 
> Of course it wouldn't say it as a requirement, its the lecturers that tell you afterwards when you start going to class. Also I believe it was digital media or something.


I never used the word "steal". Piracy is not stealing, I said that multiple times in this thread - that said, you're still using software you're not entitled to use. All I'm arguing here is that it's morally wrong. Chill.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 11, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> That's quite the assumption. What constitutes an "average person"? I don't pirate anything. Not music. Not games. Not movies. Not software. Nothing. Does that make me any less average?


 
Yes, it does make you less average.

My assumption is based on the greater impact that piracy causes in the phonographic industry compared to the impact it has in the gaming industry. I don't have any links or references since I got this kind of information from TV and magazines, but CD's sales only tends to get lower because of piracy. In gaming it's the other way around, sales tend to increase despite of piracy.

Summing it up, the average person is more used to pirating music than games and thus are more likely to find music piracy more acceptable despite the fact that it's ruining the phonographic industry.


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## ReBirFh (Jan 11, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I suppose I had it with the DS - I usually carried 100-or-so games on me and rarely played more than 5 out of'em. I ended up using the SD card for something else and putting a smaller one in the DS, then playing only the games I actually wanted to play.


 
I believe this behavior is common place for everyone that pirates, still all the other 95 games, even if you end up never touching them, will be seen as loss of money by the industry. That's one of the reasons I take all the proganda against piracy and how it hurts the family the content creators with a bucket of salt.

If you go take a look at lists of countries where gaming piracy is most prevalent you're going to notice that the majority of them don't have any kind of support, reasonable prices, marketing or localization efforts, those places were never their target consumers and they weren't expecting to sell on those places.as I see it they aren't losing anything because they weren't going to win on the first place.

Using my country as an example, the havocscope site says that the stimated loss is 159.3 Millions of dollars but when I see something like that I read it not as a loss but as "how much I could have earned if I cared to expand my market".


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 11, 2013)

I never was a collector of roms, i download a few games at time and play them, because i know that if i put a lot of games on my card i will end up playing nothing but Castlevania ,zelda or mario.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Photoshop is also a highly complex tool and almost an industry standard to an extent. There's a reason they charge so much for it.


 
And to think I was able to get Photoshop CS5 for $80 because my brother-in-law worked at Adobe, but I digress. It's too easy to pirate, that's the sad part. A lot of those who do aren't smart when the do said act because they don't give themselves anonymity and will get caught. Whether it's their ISP, local authorities, etc. If someone's really hellbent on pirating, they should at least not be stupid enough to get caught.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

gifi4 said:


> You are truly, one of the stupidest human beings that I could ever expect to live on this planet.
> Honestly, no matter how much gaming you do in your everyday life, it can and never will be a need. You can WANT it more than other things but you do not NEED it. (Note: I'm not referring to the post I quoted, that was just to notify you of the post)
> Do you really think Game Programming was a job back when no games existed. Ofcourse it wasn't. Games never used to exist.
> You have totally mixed up your own argument. You should have stated that human beings need entertainment. You know what existed before video games? Jokes, as well as many other forms of entertainment. Hell, you have a brain, therefore you have an imagination. An imagination can be a form of entertainment.
> ...


 

Ok master. I never said piracy is legal... I say it is not morally wrong. Moral and legal are very different... You want an example? Companies legally put any price they want in their games. Do you think it is moral though? I can prove to you it is not. As I said they indeed do a great job in creating those games. Really I am more than satisfied from the games that are out there and I feel really confident and happy for the games that will come out in next years. BUT!!!! Through this process of making games better and better and better they keep us gamers hooked to this hobby. They transform our "WANT" to play games in a psychological "NEED" and this is a fact. And then they profit from this "NEED" buy overpricing the games. Do you think this is moral? I don't, yet i agree it is legal. I don't say that you need it to survive but psychologically you come to a state that you "need" to play. It is your way of life. It is a form of addiction and whoever denies it is plain stupid. Of course you can survive with out them... Let me give you a simple yet very relating example... Have you seen how cigarettes prices have skyrocketed??? People still buy them... Of course they can survive without them yet they still pay a lot of money to buy them just cause they are addicted to them. So let your "you are the stupidest human being" aside and stop getting brainwashed for a minute and think clearly.
Piracy is ILLEGAL
Piracy is MORAL for me. (for others might be immoral but for my principals it is not, and morality has to do with personal principals too)
Oh and some info about the word "moral" that you so easily use about us pirates...

The term “morality” can be used either

descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,
some other group, such as a religion, or
accepted by an individual for her own behavior or

normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.
When you see that the piracy percentages are at 95% then means that the crashing majority of the audience of games is pirating.... How can you say that piracy is immoral???
Can you explain that tome please since as you stated I am the stupidest human being please?


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## Unagi (Jan 11, 2013)

The fact that you consider gaming a NEED over a WANT is fucking messed up.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Unagi said:


> The fact that you consider gaming a NEED over a WANT is fucking messed up.


 
You can't understand they way I mean it... Or you don't want to accept it. Amusement is a "NEED" wether you like it or not.Try to live without amusement and lets see how that turns out with your psychological state. Games is a way of satisfying this "need" that a very big part of population chooses to use. Do you know why? Because it is one of the most fun things you can do. Why? Because this is their purpose... They are scientifically created to make you have fun... So they become a way to satisfy one of your needs. Now can you see how it can be a "need" over a "want" ? Or does it need further explanation?

Haven't it happened to you that you stay hooked on a game for so many hours that you start to get hungry and wish you didn't so you don't lose time from your game? I am sure you will say no as many of you will but you will know that it is not true  So i am rather realistic than living in my imagination, saying piracy is immoral so I might look good to others. I know what I am, I know what i am doing and I do not feel ashamed of it. Though I agree with all of you that it is illegal. I never said the opposite.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> You can't understand they way I mean it... Or you don't want to accept it. Amusement is a "NEED" wether you like it or not.Try to live without amusement and lets see how that turns out with your psychological state. Games is a way of satisfying this "need" that a very big part of population chooses to use. Do you know why? Because it is one of the most fun things you can do. Why? Because this is their purpose... They are scientifically created to make you have fun... So they become a way to satisfy one of your needs. Now can you see how it can be a "need" over a "want" ? Or does it need further explanation?


 
But gaming is one of many forms of amusement. It's a hobby of mine but it's not THE hobby. If gaming ceased to exist the next morning I think I'd do alright. I have a TV, I have some movies, I have some Magic cards. I'll be fine.

Also, speaking of Magic (another hobby that is hellishly expensive), consider this:

>Millions of dollars go into development of video game, people complain
>Wizards of the Coast charges $100 for a box of cardboard, no one complains.

Gamers, always complaining, never satisfied.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> But gaming is one of many forms of amusement. It's a hobby of mine but it's not THE hobby. If gaming ceased to exist the next morning I think I'd do alright. I have a TV, I have some movies, I have some Magic cards. I'll be fine.
> 
> Also, speaking of Magic (another hobby that is hellishly expensive), consider this:
> 
> ...


 
I never said it is THE hobby  I have other hobbies too. I play guitar, I play tennis, I go skiing and snowboarding, I used to go mountain biking a lot, Hell my job is a hobby of mine. I am a tennis coach. But gaming is a part of my life since I was a little boy. It was always a passion to me since I can remember my self. And I do not accept kids to come and tell me that I am immoral cause companies say so


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I never said it is THE hobby  I have other hobbies too. I play guitar, I play tennis, I go skiing and snowboarding, I used to go mountain biking a lot, Hell my job is a hobby of mine. I am a tennis coach. But gaming is a part of my life since I was a little boy. It was always a passion to me since I can remember my self. And I do not accept kids to come and tell me that I am immoral cause companies say so


 
But you're saying it's a necessity, which implies you cannot live without it. Which is simply not true.

Video gaming is a luxury in every sense of the word.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> But you're saying it's a necessity, which implies you cannot live without it. Which is simply not true.
> 
> Video gaming is a luxury in every sense of the word.


Psychologically to me it is. I can't imagine my self without video games, simple as that. I know I can survive without them.
Here is another example. Can you live without a phone? You surely will survive without it but don't you just need it? The same way some people need video games.
Another example? Sex. Don't you need to have sex? Won't you survive without it? Yet you need it.


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## pwsincd (Jan 11, 2013)

The price of a video game is overly priced , fact . Lets take a major player example . (please bare in mind these facts arent exacts but close)

COD MW2 - approx marketing and dev costs $200 million.

First month sales $1 Billion Dollars.

Rounded $800 million profit .... (were quids in right !!! )

.

Equivilant movie release say .. hmm.... Avatar....

Production costs approx $240 million dollars .....

First month sales $1 Billion Dollars.

Rounded $760 million profit (Kerching!!!)


Average US cinema ticket price $8

Do i need to state the game price ?????


(sits back and waits for comparison abuse).


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Psychologically to me it is. I can't imagine my self without video games, simple as that. I know I can survive without them.
> Here is another example. Can you live without a phone? You surely will survive without it but don't you just need it? The same way some people need video games.


 
That's not a valid example at all. A phone is an actual lifeline. If you have an emergency, you pretty much need a phone.

Video games are something you do in your free time. A phone is not.

If video games are "essential" to you "psychologically" then you need some real help quite honestly.



pwsincd said:


> The price of a video game is overly priced , fact . Lets take a major player example . (please bare in mind these facts arent exacts but close)
> 
> COD MW2 - approx marketing and dev costs $200 million.
> 
> ...


 
Because Avatar was only successful after its first month?

Let's not count merchandise and DVD/Bluray sales.

EDIT: For the record I saw Avatar in theaters three weeks after it came out and the line for that was longer than opening weekend for the latest Star Trek movie.

That movie was absolutely huge.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> That's not a valid example at all. A phone is an actual lifeline. If you have an emergency, you pretty much need a phone.
> 
> Video games are something you do in your free time. A phone is not.
> 
> If video games are "essential" to you "psychologically" then you need some real help quite honestly.


LOL
Guys had emergencies before they had phones too and they survived them...
And also why an emergency makes it a need? Your argument is invalid


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> LOL
> Guys had emergencies before they had phones too and they survived them...


 
Yeah, and shit was a lot worse back then.

Nowadays, if you need the police, an ambulance, or the fire department, you call. That's pretty necessary if you're getting robbed/assaulted/vandalized, having a life-threatening situation, or if your house is on fire and you'd rather have the fire department come there through a means other than smoke signals.


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## pyromaniac123 (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Psychologically to me it is. I can't imagine my self without video games, simple as that. I know I can survive without them.
> Here is another example. *Can you live without a phone? You surely will survive without it but don't you just need it? The same way some people need video games.*
> Another example? Sex. Don't you need to have sex? Won't you survive without it? Yet you need it.


 
Is this what Lord Buddha said? One can't live without a phone or video games?


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## emigre (Jan 11, 2013)

I like how this thread illustrates a number of members have entitlement issues and terrible logic.


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## Unagi (Jan 11, 2013)

You must think we're all ignorant fellows, hooo you're so wrong. I'm a chemistry student and I can tell you this, there aren't many amusements in that particular field. I lived without amusements for a year, and how did that turn out? A 3.7 GPA and I'm one of only six chemistry majors left on campus. But that's a whole different story. There's a lot more to the world than gaming, man.


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## emigre (Jan 11, 2013)

Unagi said:


> You must think we're all ignorant fellows, hooo you're so wrong. I'm a chemistry student and I can tell you this, there aren't many amusements in that particular field. *I lived without amusements for a year,* and how did that turn out? A 3.7 GPA and I'm one of only six chemistry majors left on campus. But that's a whole different story. There's a lot more to the world than gaming, man.


 
Is your name Jack? And did you turn into a dull boy?


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## Toasty (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 I actually looked at your profile to try to view your age, I can't imagine anyone over the age of lets say 18 would consider video games an absolute NEED.

I pirate shit, not going to pretend like I care about Nintendo's millions and billions of profits, although I hear they're not doing as well recently due to poor sales (their fault) of the 3DS and/or Wii U. I have a 3DS but no games because I haven't found a title worth $40 yet, perhaps in October, we'll see. Right now I'm enjoying my Acekard 2i and a bunch of pirated content, but I did buy plenty of DS games back in the day, although I have since sold them for some extra spending money. I probably had around 15 titles.


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## pwsincd (Jan 11, 2013)

Yeah the sales of avatar over a 3 month period was approx $2 billion , im not wholy sure on the game equivilant , however the DLC vs DVD sales are about similar , bare in mind this is for major players in the industry and not 1 man bands (so to speak)  MY general point is that i beleive for dev/marketing costs in the main games are over pricesd compared to the movie industry , now i know theres planty of aspects where this wont be the case , but when were discussing the major players , the gaming industry does take the piss with pricing.


typos aplenty : alcahol induced .. apologies.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

pwsincd said:


> Yeah the sales of avatar over a 3 month period was approx $2 billion , im not wholy sure on the game equivilant , however the DLC vs DVD sales are about similar , bare in mind this is for major players in the industry and not 1 man bands (so to speak) MY general point is that i beleive for dev/marketing costs in the main games are over pricesd compared to the movie industry , now i know theres planty of aspects where this wont be the case , but when were discussing the major players , the gaming industry does take the piss with pricing.
> 
> 
> typos aplenty : alcahol induced .. apologies.


 
$2 billion vs. $1 billion is pretty fucking big.

Also DVDs and Blurays generally have a larger audience than video games.

The comparison of movies vs. games in terms of production is just nonsensical.


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## pwsincd (Jan 11, 2013)

yes 2 billion is bigger than 1 million ,  but i dint state the game sales after the date of my original post , so wtf u want a maths degree ?  again DVD/ Bluray costs of that game/film comparison i made are remarkably similar . go check . so it equates. It isnt nonsensical when you consider the dev in a game these days is getting closer and closer to that of a major CGI based movie.


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## McHaggis (Jan 11, 2013)

emigre said:


> I like how this thread illustrates a number of members have entitlement issues and terrible logic.


I just can't believe it's still going.

Despite jimskeet's arrogance, I think he's said―albeit, illiterately―one of the smartest things so far: anybody who owns any piece of copyrighted material that they did not legally obtain, no matter what their reasons, has no real right to question anybody else's moral compass regarding piracy.  I certainly can't, I pirate DS games and Wii games all the time, mostly because my kids are interested in a game one day and not the next.  Like Guild said, nobody can argue that there's a good reason to pirate, but I'll do it anyway because.  On the flip-side of the coin, I also own more brand-new purchased GC, Wii, PS1, PS2, PS3, NES, GB, GBC, GBA, DS and 3DS games than anybody I know.  I don't buy pre-owned (although I have been gifted pre-owned games).  So, while I'm not justifying the games I've pirated, I've funded the video game industry much more than most legitimate game owners, and that makes _me_ ok with it.  I'm happy to go on the way I always have, buying some, pirating some, hoarding most.


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## pwsincd (Jan 11, 2013)

Well Said Mc.


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## SickPuppy (Jan 11, 2013)

If the video game manufacturers make a good game, then it will sell well. First week of sales for Black Ops 2 sold 11 Million copies (and that's just the first week), how many people do you think pirated the game without buying it.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Toasty said:


> jimskeet2002 I actually looked at your profile to try to view your age, I can't imagine anyone over the age of lets say 18 would consider video games an absolute NEED.
> 
> I pirate shit, not going to pretend like I care about Nintendo's millions and billions of profits, although I hear they're not doing as well recently due to poor sales (their fault) of the 3DS and/or Wii U. I have a 3DS but no games because I haven't found a title worth $40 yet, perhaps in October, we'll see. Right now I'm enjoying my Acekard 2i and a bunch of pirated content, but I did buy plenty of DS games back in the day, although I have since sold them for some extra spending money. I probably had around 15 titles.


I am 25 and I am really into games... I don't say that i need them to survive but they are a big part of my life as I said...
Edit: And how the hell do they expect Wii U to sell when they price it for 320 Euro.... REALLY???? And not hacked yet  wait for it to be hacked and price lowered and it will sell fine  That is the reason 3DS  hasn't sold a lot yet. Wait for its hack and you will see


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## McHaggis (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> That is the reason 3DS hasn't sold a lot yet.


You're not doing yourself any favours in this thread, are you?  The 3DS has sold 22 million consoles worldwide.  I know "a lot" is a relative term but the most important relative factor is the competition and, in comparison to that, I think you can safely say the 3DS has sold a lot.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

McHaggis said:


> You're not doing yourself any favours in this thread, are you?  The 3DS has sold 22 million consoles worldwide. I know "a lot" is a relative term but the most important relative factor is the competition and, in comparison to that, I think you can safely say the 3DS has sold a lot.


Well haven't researched how much it sold. Just took the guys info I quoted. But imagine how much sales will pump up once it gets hacked


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## Toasty (Jan 11, 2013)

It's selling decently now, but aren't they selling it at a loss or something? They're still not making as much money off of it, they originally had it priced at a ridiculous $250.


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## SickPuppy (Jan 11, 2013)

Toasty said:


> It's selling decently now, but aren't they selling it at a loss or something? They're still not making as much money off of it, they originally had it priced at a ridiculous $250.


 
$250 at release, don't remind me. I could get a 3DS XL cheaper than I paid for the standard 3DS at launch.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

SickPuppy said:


> $250 at release, don't remind me. I could get a 3DS XL cheaper than I paid for the standard 3DS at launch.


Don't you just feel you got ripped off?????????? And others here tell us jokes like not to pirate and that it is immoral... HAHAHAHHA


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Don't you just feel you got ripped off?????????? And others here tell us jokes like not to pirate and that it is immoral... HAHAHAHHA


 
"Ripped off". Implying you were swindled out of your cash or mislead by false advertising. Which you weren't.

If you bought the 3DS or any other console for that matter at a price you find "ridiculous" it's your own fucking fault. It's not like you were forced to buy one at gunpoint. It's your money to spend and you decided to spend $250 of it on a 3DS. Deal with it.


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## sero (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Psychologically to me it is. I can't imagine my self without video games, simple as that.


 

That speaks to a psychological addiction, which you may wish to seek help for.  I'm not trolling/being a jerk--if you feel that you can not function properly without a non-necessity, you may want to take a look at why that is the case.

Information is not inherently free.  The fact that you use copyable data without paying for it means that you are devaluing the information.  Consider this:  If you had a time machine, and decided to go into the future and see the winning lottery numbers for the rest of time, would it be morally or ethically correct for you to use that information for your own gain? No.  This is an extreme situation, but piracy relates in that engaging in it devalues the information or what it represents.

Is it morally right to counterfeit $100 bills?  It isn't like you are stealing money from anyone else.  Except that you are by devaluing the currency a tiny little bit for every counterfeit dollar you create.  Piracy is no different.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> "Ripped off". Implying you were swindled out of your cash or mislead by false advertising. Which you weren't.
> 
> If you bought the 3DS or any other console for that matter at a price you find "ridiculous" it's your own fucking fault. It's not like you were forced to buy one at gunpoint. It's your money to spend and you decided to spend $250 of it on a 3DS. Deal with it.


I think we all know what I mean when I say ripped off


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## SickPuppy (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Don't you just feel you got ripped off?????????? And others here tell us jokes like not to pirate and that it is immoral... HAHAHAHHA


 
HA HA, as I was shelling out $250 for my 3DS, the store clerk asked if I wanted any lube to go with that >><<


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 11, 2013)

I PAID $250 OF MY MONEY OF MY OWN FREE WILL ON A PRODUCT THAT WAS NOT FALSELY ADVERTISED IN ANY WAY.

TALK ABOUT RAPE GUYS.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 11, 2013)

sero said:


> That speaks to a psychological addiction, which you may wish to seek help for. I'm not trolling/being a jerk--if you feel that you can not function properly without a non-necessity, you may want to take a look at why that is the case.
> 
> Information is not inherently free. The fact that you use copyable data without paying for it means that you are devaluing the information. Consider this: If you had a time machine, and decided to go into the future and see the winning lottery numbers for the rest of time, would it be morally or ethically correct for you to use that information for your own gain? No. This is an extreme situation, but piracy relates in that engaging in it devalues the information or what it represents.
> 
> Is it morally right to counterfeit $100 bills? It isn't like you are stealing money from anyone else. Except that you are by devaluing the currency a tiny little bit for every counterfeit dollar you create. Piracy is no different.



Oh god.... Ok I will talk to a doctor for how much I like playing games. Are u happy now? I am not devaluing any information although they do need to get devalued....


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## sero (Jan 11, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Oh god.... Ok I will talk to a doctor for how much I like playing games. Are u happy now? I am not devaluing any information although they do need to get devalued....


Bull.  If you pirate games, you decrease the number of actual games you will buy.  Case in point: if piracy didn't exist, you would buy games to satiate your habit.

Because you are removing yourself as a purchaser but are continuing to be a consumer of the good, you cause the demand for the item to become lower.  Not by any noticeable amount, but when you take millions of others doing the exact same thing, you can see a huge amount of lost revenue and devaulation for games.

Look at the Dreamcast.  Became popular right when CD burners were all the rage. Easiest thing in the world to pirate.  Game system fell like a ton of bricks (for other reasons too, but piracy was a huge element in their downfall).  When the system sells just fine but the games don't, you know there's a problem.


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## ReBirFh (Jan 12, 2013)

sero said:


> Bull. If you pirate games, you decrease the number of actual games you will buy. Case in point: if piracy didn't exist, you would buy games to satiate your habit.
> 
> Because you are removing yourself as a purchaser but are continuing to be a consumer of the good, you cause the demand for the item to become lower. Not by any noticeable amount, but when you take millions of others doing the exact same thing, you can see a huge amount of lost revenue and devaulation for games.
> 
> Look at the Dreamcast. Became popular right when CD burners were all the rage. Easiest thing in the world to pirate. Game system fell like a ton of bricks (for other reasons too, but piracy was a huge element in their downfall). When the system sells just fine but the games don't, you know there's a problem.


 
*A marginal number of the pirated games really represent a loss and it actually can bring profit by turning you into a fan of a franchise of the game you pirated out of curiosity/lack of money.
(There are plenty of studies that shows that pirates are the biggest spenders/consumers of legitimate media)

*Piracy was the least of the problems the Dreamcast had, SEGA's lack of money, the console being sold at loss, the cost of Shenmue's development and most important the hype behind Sony after the original Playstation were the real reason it failed.

*PSX, PS2, NDS, Wii/X360 were the most easily pirateable systems of their generations and also the most successful.


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## sero (Jan 12, 2013)

ReBirFh said:


> *A marginal number of the pirated games really represent a loss and it actually can bring profit by turning you into a fan of a franchise of the game you pirated out of curiosity/lack of money.
> (There are plenty of studies that shows that pirates are the biggest spenders/consumers of legitimate media)
> 
> *Piracy was the least of the problems the Dreamcast had, SEGA's lack of money, the console being sold at loss, the cost of Shenmue's development and most important the hype behind Sony after the original Playstation were the real reason it failed.
> ...


 
-The PSX and PS2 would not read without a modchip of some sort (or the slidecard for the PS2 if you wanted to go that route). Dreamcast could be pirated using things so many kids had available at the time: a computer, CD burner, a Dreamcast game borrowed from a friend or rented from a video store, and a quick online tutorial.  Even the later generations that had anti-piracy measures were worked around without the use of a modchip.

-The NDS was hurt by piracy but because children occupy so much of its market, piracy wasn't that big of a thing.  Not that many 40 year old parents are going to go trolling rom sites for their kid, or buying flash cards from websites that they don't recognize.

-The Wii has the homebrew channel, but piracy on it isn't perfect because of the continuous updates and difficulty of getting the ISOs onto the device.  Fitting them on a 2GB card isn't always optimal, and not everyone has a portable USB hard drive lying around.

-The 360 has some of the same issues as the PSX/PS2 in that you have to modify the system (albeit through software at this point I assume) to allow it to play modded games.  

Aaaand of course the existence of the DMCA that wasn't even an issue when the Dreamcast was out makes things sketchy, because there is now a risk of being caught.

So no, the Dreamcast was not harder to pirate than these other systems; I would venture to say it was the easiest requiring no additional hardware or changes to the unit itself.  Not quite as easy as copying floppy disk games like we all did in the 80's, but still pretty simple.  Like I said in my post, piracy was only one reason the Dreamcast failed--but it also had some good things going for it that could have saved it if game sales were successful.


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## Rydian (Jan 12, 2013)

He wasn't saying that the DC was harder to pirate on, he was saying that the idea of "piracy = dead system" is obviously wrong, listing multiple systems that are quite easy _and common_ to pirate on, that succeeded quite well.


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## ReBirFh (Jan 12, 2013)

sero said:


> -The PSX and PS2 would not read without a modchip of some sort (or the slidecard for the PS2 if you wanted to go that route). Dreamcast could be pirated using things so many kids had available at the time: a computer, CD burner, a Dreamcast game borrowed from a friend or rented from a video store, and a quick online tutorial. Even the later generations that had anti-piracy measures were worked around without the use of a modchip.
> 
> -The NDS was hurt by piracy but because children occupy so much of its market, piracy wasn't that big of a thing. Not that many 40 year old parents are going to go trolling rom sites for their kid, or buying flash cards from websites that they don't recognize.
> 
> ...


 
*In no moment I said the other systems were easier to pirate than the Dreamcast or it being harder than the others, what I said was that in their respective generations they were easier and this didnt turn them into a failure.

*The Dreamcast also wasn't as easy as you put it to pirate, you had to have an internet connection (at the time not as prevalent as today and with much lower speeds and harder for sharing), the games couldnt be copied directly as it used a proprietary media bigger than any CD-R available at the time (I think the size used to be 640mb later imprroved to 700Mb while the Dreamcast used a 1GB Disc that couldn't be read by common CD Readers) and even if you managed to get the scene iso it was a very convoluted way to burn them as it used a combination of problematic software to successfully burn them (I think the name was Diskjuggler or something like that).


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## Rydian (Jan 12, 2013)

Well for end users by the time the DC was dead and cable was common, most game copies online were already ripped/trimmed.  At least, I never ran across one that wouldn't burn to a CD-R properly.  The only two games that I know of that game trouble were Rush 2047 (where they downsampled the audio and made it crappier), and Skies Of Arcadia, and for that one that just modded the game a bit to compress some things (but it made battles slower to launch).  But yeah Diskjuggler was annoying, since it would offer to "fix" the disc all the time (which would make it non-bootable),

Also can't the PS2 just use a memory card that's had FreeMCBoot or whatever installed?


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## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 12, 2013)

Ok guys... I usually just read the topics and stuff, but ethics and moral are my thing (I study philosophy in college and shit) and I thought I could somehow add to this discussion (I've been reading it for some days, and really enjoying the discussion).
That being said, let's start...
By the moral point of view, off course pirating is wrong (and talking about personal moral is bs, since even the scholars on the subject not always agree on the concept of moral, but the only thing they usually do agree is that moral is a social moral code). Just cuz you are in reality using someone's work in a non-approved way.
That being said, we go to the ethics subject. Is it ethical to pirate? This can be a muddy and shady point to discuss, cuz ethic is a purely personal stand.
For example: I, as some other guys who are engaging in the discussion, happen to be Brazilian. In my case (and the guys will surely agree) I happen to be one of the most under paid workers in the country: I'm a teacher (English, to be a little more accurate). So, I usually have a reasonably low income to deal with every month, and, not just like to play VGs sometimes, but also end enduring some kind of moral pressure to understand and know something about the hypes and trends that are happening at that exactly moment, so I can make some king of dialog happen with my students.
A game in Brazil, IF i buy it by any legit mean (and I sometimes do), costs about 30 to 40% of my monthly income, and if I don't have access to the games, even my professional side can be (emphasis on the CAN part, cuz it's a possibility) hurt. So, I pirate.
I accept that, I understand that, I wish I could buy copies of everything, and more consoles, and whatever.
It's not right (in the moral point of view), it's not a necessity (but it can be an obstacle) in my means of living if I don't, and if I could, I would change it.

But as fucked up as Brazil is, there are worse places.

Take as example, IDK, Angola.

Usually a family has a very small income, and any electronic is some sort of social status, so parents will try it's hardest to buy a tv, and to buy a vg to their kids. But, what good comes from a console without a game? They can't afford games, and it IS morally right within their society to pirate stuff (in some cases, it's the only way to do it, since legit stuff usually doesn't even comes inside its borders).

Now, talking about discussion only, I've seen some BIG flaws on jimskeet2002's arguments. They are NOT logic in any means of the term.
NO, prices NEVER justify conterfeiting or pirating a product.
NO, a psychological need (AKA addiction) don't do it either.
For hell's sake, not even the lack of access to a given product justifies this.
TBH, NOTHING justifies this given behavior.

Off course, I'm not demanding raw logic from scholars from a fucking forum discussion on a videogame forum... but common sense, come on...
Yeah, you do it, I do it... We both wouldn't do it if the prices were lower, but they aren't.
I REALLY don't want you grieving with guilty, I don't want you to suffer, none of that.
But accepting that this is morally wrong IS just common sense.
Being OK with it, it's a whole different matter.
I'm OK with pirating, and why shouldn't I?
I can't afford it, in MY country they tax VGs the same as gambling, and more: even with a lot of civil pressure, they just DON'T want to help us.
The big companies don't care about our market (sony is the only one, besides a brazilian company that used to license SEGA) that is inside Brazil in VGs, and this after more than 10 long years (ok, ok, nintendo used to have a branch in here back in the SNES era, but nw is gone).
So yeah, if they don't care about us, we don't have any reason to care about them.

But two wrongs will never make a right.


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 12, 2013)

JuStYn.Leandro said:


> Ok guys... I usually just read the topics and stuff, but ethics and moral are my thing (I study philosophy in college and shit) and I thought I could somehow add to this discussion (I've been reading it for some days, and really enjoying the discussion).
> That being said, let's start...
> By the moral point of view, off course pirating is wrong (and talking about personal moral is bs, since even the scholars on the subject not always agree on the concept of moral, but the only thing they usually do agree is that moral is a social moral code). Just cuz you are in reality using someone's work in a non-approved way.
> That being said, we go to the ethics subject. Is it ethical to pirate? This can be a muddy and shady point to discuss, cuz ethic is a purely personal stand.
> ...


 
I really enjoyed your opinion. I agree with you. You just mention on the first bold sentence that for them it is moral. Let me tell you that here in Greece pirate is almost the only way here Greeks play games. We only buy games that can't be hacked. Like diablo 3, or heroes of newerth etc... So in my country you could say it is moral too  Also we too have really low income. When companies know that our official lowest salary is 480 euro they cant charge us for 50 euro per game  It is not moral IMO.
You say that prices never justify pirating. I think in the area of video games, piracy is a fact nowadays and companies should take it to account when they price their products... Recently I' ve read that Ubisoft plans on releasing F2P games just cause piracy levels are very high. And that they think that F2P model will bring them more value out of their products. That is clever thinking IMO, accept the fact and plan your moves keeping in mind that piracy is out there... When companies try to fight something that almost 95% of the audience does, that seems stupid...


----------



## Senbei Norimaki (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I think in the area of video games, piracy is a fact nowadays and companies should take it to account when they price their products.


 
They do.  They say the reason they charge so much for video games is because they are trying to make up the money they lost to pirates by charging the people who are too stupid to pirate more money.  They don't only hate pirates they also hate people that by used games and people that buy out of region games too.  Believe me they don't lose any money I see plenty of people at my job buying video games.


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## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I really enjoyed your opinion. I agree with you. You just mention on the first bold sentence that for them it is moral. Let me tell you that here in Greece pirate is almost the only way here Greeks play games. We only buy games that can't be hacked. Like diablo 3, or heroes of newerth etc... So in my country you could say it is moral too  Also we too have really low income. When companies know that our official lowest salary is 480 euro they cant charge us for 50 euro per game  It is not moral IMO.
> You say that prices never justify pirating. I think in the area of video games, piracy is a fact nowadays and companies should take it to account when they price their products... Recently I' ve read that Ubisoft plans on releasing F2P games just cause piracy levels are very high. And that they think that F2P model will bring them more value out of their products. That is clever thinking IMO, accept the fact and plan your moves keeping in mind that piracy is out there... When companies try to fight something that almost 95% of the audience does, that seems stupid...


 
Ok, so, use this chart as a reference:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ece&country2=Angola&city1=Athens&city2=Luanda

And now tell me: is it REALLY FAIR to compare Greece to Angola?

I don't think so...


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 12, 2013)

JuStYn.Leandro said:


> Ok, so, use this chart as a reference:
> 
> http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ece&country2=Angola&city1=Athens&city2=Luanda
> 
> ...


 
Ok if you take as monthly salary 850 euro as it states and in Luanda says 2100euro  ..... But here in Greece situation is very different than this chart.... Monthly salary is 480euro atm and is going down . 27% official unemployment... 50+% unemployment in ages lower than 30. And most of the guys that have jobs are part time jobs for money like 250-300 per month. So I can easily compare Greece to anywhere atm...  3000 suicides since 2 years for financial reasons btw


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## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 12, 2013)

Quoting the website I've showed you:

You would need around 9,647.02$ (7,266.13€) in Luanda to maintain 
the same standard of life that you can have with 2,700.00€ in Athens
(assuming you rent in both cities). 
This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index.

Angola has a 26% rate of unemployment ( http://www.tradingeconomics.com/angola/unemployment-rate ) AND if you go through the effort of reading the numbers, EVEN getting "more", everything in there is like, 300% more expensive than in Athenas.
Yeah, it's though to be in a country in the middle of a crisis, I know, I've been there, my family lost a load of money back in the 90's in our last economical crisis... but the country will survive and resist.
The problem with Greece is that you guys were used to have an "European" lifestyle, and now you need to deal with a Brazilian lifestyle... life sucks


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 12, 2013)

JuStYn.Leandro said:


> Quoting the website I've showed you:
> 
> You would need around 9,647.02$ (7,266.13€) in Luanda to maintain
> the same standard of life that you can have with 2,700.00€ in Athens
> ...


 
The problem with Greece is that we are a target of a financial war spreading out all over Europe and eventually the world. Also the 2.700euro salary is an astronomical amount here in Greece atm. A businessman with 15.000euro per year if he pays all the taxes that have been introduced nowadays in Greece he will end up having 200 euro per month true salary.... Life Idd sucks  So that is why I don't get bs about morality of piracy . If companies feel that they are that doomed from piracy all i have to say to them is. well.... life sucks.


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> The problem with Greece is that we are a target of a financial war spreading out all over Europe and eventually the world. Also the 2.700euro salary is an astronomical amount here in Greece atm. A businessman with 15.000euro per year if he pays all the taxes that have been introduced nowadays in Greece he will end up having 200 euro per month true salary.... Life Idd sucks  So that is why I don't get bs about morality of piracy . If companies feel that they are that doomed from piracy all i have to say to them is. well.... life sucks.


 
In Brazil, back then, the government confiscated ALL of our savings to try to rescue the country. It was 20 years ago, and even now there are people that are still waiting to be paid back.
Inflation of prices was an everyday reality, what you bought in a day with 2 bucks would be 3, or 4, or 5 in the following day. (They even started to hire people just to change the prices in the supermarket EVERYDAY. Crazy, ain't it?)
But, as I told you, things change.
Anyway you put it, this WILL BE an unfair comparison, due to a enormous number of reasons. But that's beyond the point of the original discussion.
Greece is going through a crisis, and in a crisis the morality of people doesn't change overnight.
To change the morals of a population is a proccess that takes decades, and generations.

And about feeling morally corrupt or not, PLEASE read again my first comment... and then try to understand that being morally wrong doesn't mean feeling wrong about it.

Ok, gotta work... be back in some 4 or 5 hours I think, so we'll resume the discussion by then


----------



## Issac (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> *The problem with Greece is that we are a target of a financial war spreading out all over Europe and eventually the world.*


....... what?


----------



## Nurio (Jan 12, 2013)

Issac said:


> ....... what?


Don't you know? We Europeans want to kill Greece financially! That's why we put buttloads of money towards Greece!

(Sarcasm, for those who aren't aware.)


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 12, 2013)

Issac said:


> ....... what?





Nurio said:


> Don't you know? We Europeans want to kill Greece financially! That's why we put buttloads of money towards Greece!
> 
> (Sarcasm, for those who aren't aware.)


 

LOL EXACTLY!

Fuck the greek! Nobody cares for them or for all the contributions their culture has done to modern society, nor for the financial impact of a country going bankrupt in Europe!

Holy shit...


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 12, 2013)

Piracy is illegal, therefore, it is wrong.  There is no question of morality.  It's not like you're killing the king's deer to feed your family...  These are toys, people.


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 12, 2013)

Nurio said:


> Don't you know? We Europeans want to kill Greece financially! That's why we put buttloads of money towards Greece!
> 
> (Sarcasm, for those who aren't aware.)


I am amazed at how misinformed people are... If you think that what is going now in Greece, which is also going on in other European countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc is not planned for years you are very very wrong... Also what money do you give us? The money media tells you that you give us? As a loan to pay previous loans? So our debt just grows bigger and bigger??? And then later they will come to us and tell us... Well you can't pay us so we will take your petrol below Creta (estimated about 10 trillion dollars) and any other mineral deposits here in Greece, which according to a survey a geological institute(which was closed right after the survey, what a coincidence) here in Greece did are quite a lot... Oh and your salaries will go down to 300euro so we have a place to hold our factories with very low costs of production so we have more profit. But hey... you guys clearly put buttloads of money so you can save poor Greeks, right? Oh we thank you so much.
Before posting BS for issues that serious you should do a little research first. Just sayin

EDIT: And stop believing to what MEDIA and COMPANIES say. Everything you listen from them is a product of communication teams designed to satisfy their purposes... It is called manipulation of the masses and is going around for too long... You should know that allready


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I am amazed at how misinformed people are... If you think that what is going now in Greece, which is also going on in other European countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc is not planned for years you are very very wrong... Also what money do you give us? The money media tells you that you give us? As a loan to pay previous loans? So our debt just grows bigger and bigger??? And then later they will come to us and tell us... Well you can't pay us so we will take your petrol below Creta (estimated about 10 trillion dollars) and any other mineral deposits here in Greece, which according to a survey a geological institute(which was closed right after the survey, what a coincidence) here in Greece did are quite a lot... Oh and your salaries will go down to 300euro so we have a place to hold our factories with very low costs of production so we have more profit. But hey... you guys clearly put buttloads of money so you can save poor Greeks, right? Oh we thank you so much.
> Before posting BS for issues that serious you should do a little research first. Just sayin


 
They have China for cheap factories. AND, if this about the petroil and minerals is true, sorry to say but you've chosen badly your government. No decent government would sit on a cashmine while its people suffer. Just saying...


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 12, 2013)

JuStYn.Leandro said:


> They have China for cheap factories. AND, if this about the petroil and minerals is true, sorry to say but you've chosen badly your government. No decent government would sit on a cashmine while its people suffer. Just saying...


First China idd has cheap factories but Europe doesn't control it... They want to build their own China within Europe.... You think there is a choice here? Every party is the same shit here.... I didn't even go to vote... the abstention of the last elections was almos 40%. Do you know what that means??? That half the population is not believing in any of the parties.... They had to combine 3 parties so they can form a government cause the highest % a party got was 25%...... We are governed by a government that is set by outsiders to fulfill their purposes... And that is what they are doing here


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> First China idd has cheap factories but Europe doesn't control it... They want to build their own China within Europe.... You think there is a choice here? Every party is the same shit here.... I didn't even go to vote... the abstention of the last elections was almos 40%. Do you know what that means??? That half the population is not believing in any of the parties.... They had to combine 3 parties so they can form a government cause the highest % a party got was 25%...... We are governed by a government that is set by outsiders to fulfill their purposes... And that is what they are doing here


 
If the people didn't vote (thus allowing themselves the right of not giving a dam), and didn't show their unhappyness through action, well... the people deserve being fucked.

All in all, I think you're showing yourself as quite a sociopath, and quite a paranoid...


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jan 12, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Piracy is illegal, therefore, it is wrong. There is no question of morality. It's not like you're killing the king's deer to feed your family... These are toys, people.


 
As much as I agree with the "piracy is wrong" thing, I wouldn't judge morality on law. That's just a social construction of reality. Gay marriage and marijuana are illegal (in the US at least) but a lot of people don't consider them "morally wrong", the former more so than the latter.

But yes, I do agree that piracy is wrong and that it can't be justified as a "necessity" like your example of the deer.


----------



## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I am 25 and I am really into games... I don't say that i need them to survive but they are a big part of my life as I said...
> Edit: And how the hell do they expect Wii U to sell when they price it for 320 Euro.... REALLY???? And not hacked yet  wait for it to be hacked and price lowered and it will sell fine  That is the reason 3DS hasn't sold a lot yet. Wait for its hack and you will see


 
In Brazil, the suggested retail price is US$595,00 (R$1.190,00) and Wii games are sell for U$75,00 (R$150,00). I think it's expensive.



JuStYn.Leandro said:


> Ok guys... I usually just read the topics and stuff, but ethics and moral are my thing (I study philosophy in college and shit) and I thought I could somehow add to this discussion (I've been reading it for some days, and really enjoying the discussion).
> That being said, let's start...
> By the moral point of view, off course pirating is wrong (and talking about personal moral is bs, since even the scholars on the subject not always agree on the concept of moral, but the only thing they usually do agree is that moral is a social moral code). Just cuz you are in reality using someone's work in a non-approved way.
> That being said, we go to the ethics subject. Is it ethical to pirate? This can be a muddy and shady point to discuss, cuz ethic is a purely personal stand.
> ...


I really like your statement. As i said before, there's a reason on everything we made, no one is saying that it justify an act.

But some people here really thinks that people are robots that cannot say why the pirate.


----------



## Nurio (Jan 12, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> I am amazed at how misinformed people are... If you think that what is going now in Greece, which is also going on in other European countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc is not planned for years you are very very wrong... Also what money do you give us? The money media tells you that you give us? As a loan to pay previous loans? So our debt just grows bigger and bigger??? And then later they will come to us and tell us... Well you can't pay us so we will take your petrol below Creta (estimated about 10 trillion dollars) and any other mineral deposits here in Greece, which according to a survey a geological institute(which was closed right after the survey, what a coincidence) here in Greece did are quite a lot... Oh and your salaries will go down to 300euro so we have a place to hold our factories with very low costs of production so we have more profit. But hey... you guys clearly put buttloads of money so you can save poor Greeks, right? Oh we thank you so much.
> Before posting BS for issues that serious you should do a little research first. Just sayin
> 
> EDIT: And stop believing to what MEDIA and COMPANIES say. Everything you listen from them is a product of communication teams designed to satisfy their purposes... It is called manipulation of the masses and is going around for too long... You should know that allready


You said so many words, and yet all I could hear was "Conspiracy theory"
Yes, I do believe a lot of money went your way. These spendings were in the national financial report, and that's not something that you can call "false media".
That said, your argument contradicts itself. First you claim I shouldn't believe what the media tells me, and then next you base your argument on the fact that what the media tells us is true!
And even ignoring that fallacy, your argument is still paranoid at best. Do you honestly-to-goodness believe that we loaned you the money simply so we can extort stuff out of you? Don't you think we loan you money to save the euro from plummeting to its doom?

You make it sound as if nobody should've given Greece money. That you'd rather have your country go bankrupt than it to get saved by the other countries.


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 12, 2013)

JuStYn.Leandro said:


> If the people didn't vote (thus allowing themselves the right of not giving a dam), and didn't show their unhappyness through action, well... the people deserve being fucked.
> 
> All in all, I think you're showing yourself as quite a sociopath, and quite a paranoid...


As I said there isn't any choice here... Any party you vote is the same shit... The fact that 40% of population didn't vote during such a crisis indicates that they are so disappointed from every single party that they don't believe in any of them. They showed their unhappiness by not going to vote all those idiots out there that are ruining our country.

Also where do I show myself as sociopath and paranoid, I can't understand.



Nurio said:


> You said so many words, and yet all I could hear was "Conspiracy theory"
> Yes, I do believe a lot of money went your way. These spendings were in the national financial report, and that's not something that you can call "false media".
> That said, your argument contradicts itself. First you claim I shouldn't believe what the media tells me, and then next you base your argument on the fact that what the media tells us is true!
> And even ignoring that fallacy, your argument is still paranoid at best. Do you honestly-to-goodness believe that we loaned you the money simply so we can extort stuff out of you? Don't you think we loan you money to save the euro from plummeting to its doom?
> ...


 

Where did I contradict with myself? Where do I see conspiracy theories? Do you know that Germany is in profit from Greece's crisis?
You can read this if you want
http://griecheninwien.wordpress.com...-crisis-from-a-german-news-channel-reportage/
Also you can watch this video to see how a reporter from Irland (they are almost in as bad place as we are atm...) made the president of Central European Bank not be able to answer a simple question...
http://www.newsbomb.gr/blogs/story/139916/to-vinteo-poy-saronei-dimosiografos-kanei-rezili-trapeziti

And last when you will see people suicide every day around you for financial reasons you are free to come and talk to me about how I see conspiracy theories and how paranoid I am.

And no they shouldn't give us loans... They should create a marshal plan to save Greece (if they wanted to save Greece) as they did for Germany after world war 2...


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## the_randomizer (Jan 13, 2013)

Lovely discussion we're having here.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

I've learned a few things from this thread...

1) I can go to Toys R' Us and make molds of all the action figures without them leaving the store and the go home and make my own...

2) I can take my laptop and scanner to Barnes & Noble and scan every page of every book I want to read (or even think I might want to read one day, though I'd never get to them all).

3) I can take a video camera with me into a movie theater and not expect any reprocussions because the copy will be "for my own personal use".

Or...

All of those things violate copyright laws and regardless of my own personal "moral code of ethics" are considered wrong by the vast majority of the planet.  Believe it or not, the opinions of the majority of gaming website/forum members =/= the opinions of the majority of people on the planet.  One of the reasons laws exist is to keep morality out of the discussion.


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## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

^ - What thread have _you_ been reading?


----------



## the_randomizer (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> ^ - What magic substance have _you_ been toking?


Fixed that for ya.


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## RodrigoDavy (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> I've learned a few things from this thread...
> 
> 1) I can go to Toys R' Us and make molds of all the action figures without them leaving the store and the go home and make my own... *You would have a hard time making an action figure by yourself just using a mold and there is a cost implied. Regardless of that, if you want to make a doll (action figure your ass, be a man and admit you like dolls) that resembles one that already exists there's no harm, it's not seen as unacceptable at all. as long as you don't itend to sell it.*
> 
> ...


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm really sure that some people in here don't have any idea that there's a thing called law...


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## Skyb (Jan 13, 2013)

Hi Guys,

I'm going to be rude but i don't give a f... to the editor point or some hackers that play with times or any piracy things.
So let me tell you something... i was a developper only few years ago working with one of the biggest company of video games, they show me that they don't even care at all about development game or customer complaign
what they want is making business, we are working less now than in the past with a minimum of budget to make more money and not anymore excitment of playing games... releasing games that is not even finish or DLC that was the part of the game in the beginning, making money is more important for us.

You should open your eyes and see what's going on, the editor control how you play, what that mean ?

The Control Editor Project
Make a max of money
Force people to buy games
push up the price of the games
stop the used game sell
connect the platform to the editor server
spy and log every customer action
force them to update
link every game to one console
no demo, only full game (Partial Game + DLC + SDLC, sell by part) available that you need to pay
even the game suck, you can't sell it because is locked to your own video game console
etc...
I stop to work and deal with that type of company when i start to know the real plan... so today you are not important, you are just stupid for them, so you make free commercial pub for them, you talk and battle for them and you pay them to make a worst game that was made in less than 2month with few budget and the rest for the boss that don't even know what is a game and what is a good game or good price.

You know that they don't care about piracy, they even play other backup game from another company that never authorize to them to play the game too...
so seriously stop with your fuc... piracy point or hacking point, you want a better world, boycott, stop following like a sheep and release your work when you can, don't wait that a editor or dev make action, do it before is late... that all.
i know the video game world as i know my pocket, so believe me, they don't care about what you saying or what you doing... they just care about money.

You know that they use same crappy code, old physic/3D Engine again and again (even use open source stuff to make game that cost more than 60$ for few work they did on it)
Script based on another game
Engine already exist (just port the map/character on it)
take some music from different artist
pay less few people to script everythings... (or use a pre script program that just point A->B)

same as music industry (take song from other or just pay less amateur song maker and put just few lyrics, you have a tube that cost 20$, take a bankable artist to push up the price for nothing)

I'm not going to complaign about the society but who you are to judge about piracy crap and co... you know that piracy make the best deal and make better the communication between editor/customer (one who talk to another one who talk with another one without making a commercial tv spot) piracy make access to different culture, they play with piracy and you defend them and say your piracy is not good... seriously grow up and stop thinking that the world is pink...
piracy was always everywhere and always existed, it's not from yesterday and it never made any problem, the problem came from the society (job, salary and co...) a dev don't win so much money.... everythings go to the boss and company... so what is your big deal about let save company by stopping piracy... even everybody around the world stop piracy it would change anything... because paying a high price with less work for a immaterial structure doesn't help your life at all.

For me a real piracy, it's selling a appartment 1000x the real value
what is piracy, it's play with the life of people, so people go to hospital, doesn't have paper can die just here in the front of the door ?...

It's funny because people talk about law.. when this law was made by human being... that all... stop defending human that write a law doesn't make any sense or was not good for the society...

Now be happy that many store close because of the editor that push the price up and try to attack the used game... be happy to live on the world of immaterial stuff that you use all you health to win money and try to buy a product that you can really have...

It's so stupid that so many people are so dumb and follow everything like i sheep, editor tell you piracy is not good or the law say it when other law say the inverse.. anyway you will go nowhere thinking like that and you forget about defending human liberty... no one on the earth can judge anyone, we are nothing and we are here temporary... so why losing time with stuff like that

Piracy is nothing good or bad... it doesn't exist.. we call that sharing not piracy.. if we want to share the product that we buy, like a law say, you can share it as the first license was already selled with the package.. and any company doesn't have the power to block you of doing that... also it doesn't make any sense as is part of the life and cultural share

If you like to defend wrong stuff it's hope to you by on my dev point that was working on the video game company and now movie company, so i know exactly what this world of business bring and what many company want from you... go understand why the euro money is going bad, why have many revolt...it's because nothing was working as a equitable share... so everybody will go poor everyday and that will have nothing to do with piracy ! remember that piracy = numeric share... numeric doesn't cost anything than time... you pay already everything, have nothing free and you even pay piracy by using bandwith and co...

Stop to be blind and wake up before is late... if you accept everything and buy game that cost and include no real work... they will continue like that and lock you into a new generation of support that you will never have the possibility to share...

A day they will sell free imagination kid game (already did)


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> ^ - What thread have _you_ been reading?


Isn't this the thread about using someone's copyrighted, intellectual property without their expressed permission (which only requires you pay them for it)?  If not, I'll excuse myself.





JuStYn.Leandro said:


> I'm really sure that some people in here don't have any idea that there's a thing called law...


It's not that they don't believe in law as much as they seem to think they can have whatever they want whenever they want it.  Makes me proud to be an American seeing the American dream spreading to countries throughout the world.


I'm also learning that the longer the post here, the more ridiculous the claims.


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## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Isn't this the thread about using someone's copyrighted, intellectual property without their expressed permission (which only requires you pay them for it)?  If not, I'll excuse myself.


But what does your post have to do with this thread?


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> It's not that they don't believe in law as much as they seem to think they can have whatever they want whenever they want it. Makes me proud to be an American seeing the American dream spreading to countries throughout the world.


 
ow man, now that thread will turn into a political war.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> But what does your post have to do with this thread?


I'm just looking for more things to pirate since it's apparently okay.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> I'm just looking for more things to pirate since it's apparently okay.


And its not okay because?

The law regarding this is vague depending where you live and this really just goes down to if you think piracy is morally wrong or not and its pretty bloody obvious that those who pirate know the law technically says its wrong but without any real way to enforce it, it then becomes whether you feel guilty or have some weird ass morals to say its bad.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> And its not okay because?
> 
> The law regarding this is vague depending where you live and this really just goes down to if you think piracy is morally wrong or not and its pretty bloody obvious that those who pirate know the law technically says its wrong but without any real way to enforce it, it then becomes whether you feel guilty or have some weird ass morals to say its bad.


Well...you got me dude.  Piracy is okay because you say it's okay.  It's the copyright owners' and the governments of numerous nations'  "weird ass morals" that define the law...  Those silly humans, thinking they know what is or isn't acceptable behavior in respecting what people do for a living.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Well...you got me dude. Piracy is okay because you say it's okay. It's the copyright owners' and the governments of numerous nations' "weird ass morals" that define the law... Those silly humans, thinking they know what is or isn't acceptable behavior in respecting what people do for a living.


You obviously didn't read my post so to cater to your ignorance i'll say it again. The law says its wrong however with no real way to enforce that law it usually goes down to the people and do pirates care about these moral and rich companies? I highly doubt it. Does it make it legal? No but it will it make people think twice before not giving money to the big rich companies who make the product? No.


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## Senbei Norimaki (Jan 13, 2013)

I don't get my morals from the government, especially a government that says it is morally right to abort a baby.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Senbei Norimaki said:


> I don't get my morals from the government, especially a government that says it is morally right to abort a baby.


Thats a really bad example since a lot logical people are pro abortion.


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## Senbei Norimaki (Jan 13, 2013)

Not to me its not.  Aborting your own child is a lot worst than piracy, prostitution, or using drugs but the government says it is morally right.  I don't look to my government for morals.  Most of the time the government only cares about corporations and special interest groups.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Senbei Norimaki said:


> Not to me its not. Aborting your own child is a lot worst than piracy, prostitution, or using drugs but the government says it is morally right. I don't look to my government for morals. Most of the time the government only cares about corporations and special interest groups.


No. Murder, rape and related is worse than piracy abortion isn't even close to that. I agree that the government only cares about corporations and rich people and thats exactly why I don't have a big moral or ethical problem about piracy. The other stuff is a different matter.


----------



## RedCoreZero (Jan 13, 2013)

I can't say I'm against it,because I do pirate.I only pirate when I'm sure I will not buy the game,or don't have any money.I will not go buy stuff on the VC as I can always get them free; waste of money.Pirating isn't as bad as they say.Companies still make a profit off of selling stuff; like Pokémon games.Renegade Kid will stop making games for the 3DS,huge mistake.


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## RedCoreZero (Jan 13, 2013)

Pirating is bad because you don't give companies money?Used games don't got a problem.What if I copy the data off my used disk and sold it online for cheap,lol.Either way not like it makes a HUGE difference


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## Senbei Norimaki (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> No. Murder, rape and related is worse than piracy abortion isn't even close to that. I agree that the government only cares about corporations and rich people and thats exactly why I don't have a big moral or ethical problem about piracy. The other stuff is a different matter.


 
Lol, abortion isn't murder.  It is the most vile of murders a mother murdering her own child.


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## Chary (Jan 13, 2013)

Oh, piracy thread. How much entertainment you have provided...


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Senbei Norimaki said:


> Lol, abortion isn't murder. It is the most vile of murders a mother murdering her own child.


Since this is a piracy thread i'll keep this simple. Abortion isn't murder since your not killing anything in the first place and my post already highlighted that issue that abortion isn't murder and there are worse things than piracy in the world that the government should be focusing on. And no, banning abortion is not and never should be one of them.


----------



## Chary (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Since this is a piracy thread i'll keep this simple. Abortion isn't murder since your not killing anything in the first place and my post already highlighted that issue that abortion isn't murder and there are worse things than piracy in the world that the government should be focusing on. And no, banning abortion is not and never should be one of them.


While I hate myself for going off topic, I do have to say, abortion IS murder. No matter if its sentient yet or not, it's still something, that at one point, WILL grow into a human being.

But anyways, I do agree that piracy is not a major issue. So many people that I have talked to always, always, are freaked out when I tell them that I pirated something. The GOVT has hyped piracy up to the point where it's taboo.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

As long as you don't abandon/mistreat your nakamas and always work toward your dreams and...


Wait, what are y'all saying this thread isn't about One Piece? 


Srsly though... The opinion is that anything is ok if you don't get caught. This may or may not be strictly legal or moral, but hey, it's the interwebs so who cares?


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Chary said:


> While I hate myself for going off topic, I do have to say, abortion IS murder. No matter if its sentient yet or not, it's still something, that at one point, WILL grow into a human being.
> 
> But anyways, I do agree that piracy is not a major issue. So many people that I have talked to always, always, are freaked out when I tell them that I pirated something. The GOVT has hyped piracy up to the point where it's taboo.


Not just the government but those big rich companies always exaggerating how much sales they "lost" to piracy. 

Its not murder if its not a sentient being and if you think abortion is murder then I suppose you don't want to kill any insects that invade your house. Also by that logic if I go out and step on a seed or eat an egg its murder because it has the potential to become a sentient being, its not on topic but really the whole "abortion is murder" is just plain crap that is shat out by religious nutcases who want us to be living in the dark ages where they have power again.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Its not murder if its not a sentient being and if you think abortion is murder then I suppose you don't want to kill any insects that invade your house. Also by that logic if I go out and step on a seed or eat an egg its murder because it has the potential to become a sentient being, its not on topic but really the whole "abortion is murder" is just plain crap that is shat out by religious nutcases who want us to be living in the dark ages where they have power again.


 

It is stupid to attribute the ideals of people to slanted religions. Some people just believe in the sanctity of life. Denying developing organisms a chance at life is bad, and that's my [scientific] take on it.

Also, please take this discussion elsewhere. I think the both of you agree on the piracy issue, anyways. Cheers.


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## Romsstar (Jan 13, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> As long as you don't abandon/mistreat your nakamas and always work toward your dreams and...
> 
> 
> Wait, what are y'all saying this thread isn't about One Piece?
> ...


 
After all, Anime nowadays provide even better moral standards then most governments.

Thus being said, we all like Robin Hood right? 

So basically every pirate (who shares) simply takes from the SUPER rich and shares it among the poor ones.

Among the government, Robin Hood wasn't that popular. But among the poor people sure as hell was.

So basically it's a matter of on which side are you? If you are rich you are on the side of the government, if not, you will pirate.

Sure you can admit you have high moral standards and pirating is bad and all (blabla) but in the end,

it is not the question whether pirating is ok or not, but the question is:

*Are you rich or are you poor?*

Yes, Movies and Games and Music are Entertainment. You could say someone could live without that. But *what would be the point of living if you could do nothing to enjoy it*?

I can expect answers like "so save up your money and buy it when you can". Yeah, enduring hunger and cutting off every fun in my life for a month just to pay
an overpaid company even more money?

*Pirating isn't about being greedy our being lazy to buy the game. It is about priorities*. There are more important things in life your money goes to.

So *games should only be played by the rich guys? This is the only conclusion if pirating is a crime.* I certainly don't think so.

Whether piracy is bad or not, this depends on your position. I don't want to wait 10 years till I get an awesome job where I can earn enough money to pay all my bills and get games.
By then it most likely won't even matter anymore.


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

Skyb said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm going to be rude but i don't give a f... to the editor point or some hackers that play with times or any piracy things.
> So let me tell you something... i was a developper only few years ago working with one of the biggest company of video games, they show me that they don't even care at all about development game or customer complaign
> ...


 
It is at least funny how easily all of you just ignore the most important post of this thread... This guy presents you the true nature of the industry of gaming and all of you that were preaching to us about how bad piracy is don't even bother to comment on it... As I said you are at least funny... Keep buying games and get ass-f#$%cked by the companies that this guy mentions. It is your choice anyway. None is here to judge you, but hey... Don't judge us


----------



## gamewitch (Jan 13, 2013)

Chary said:


> Pirating is ALWAYS okay!
> *Hugs HDD with questionably illegal downloads.*


Sounds like my PC, I am a software pirate in a major way (although it is mainly due to lack of funds to buy said software) is moral objectionable yes, is it wrong in some ways yes, but do i really have a issue with it NO. plain and simple piracy doesn't bother me in the least bit (if it did i wouldn't be a regular on the suprbay but that is besides the point) I just ordered my first flash cart and one of the first things I plane on putting on it are some roms and some homebrew, but mainly roms
I also do it for political reasons....


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

@gamewizard

I am not sure if you mentioned an actual site there, so I'm not quoting you, but just in case... You're not allowed to even mention such sites [file sharing sites, torrent sites, etc] here.

Cheers.


----------



## gamewitch (Jan 13, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> @gamewizard
> 
> I am not sure if you mentioned an actual site there, so I'm not quoting you, but just in case... You're not allowed to even mention such sites [file sharing sites, torrent sites, etc] here.
> 
> Cheers.


I know its a forum site for a certain site related to piracy but they are merely forums that's all


----------



## koimayeul (Jan 13, 2013)

Edit : Nvm


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> It is at least funny how easily all of you just ignore the most important post of this thread... This guy presents you the true nature of the industry of gaming and all of you that were preaching to us about how bad piracy is don't even bother to comment on it... As I said you are at least funny... Keep buying games and get ass-f#$%cked by the companies that this guy mentions. It is your choice anyway. None is here to judge you, but hey... Don't judge us


 

You talk as if anybody buying games is getting screwed over. That's not true, that's subjective, opinionated what you're spouting.

Games like Borderlands 2, Batman Arkham Asylum/Arkham City, Assassin's Creed 2 (not AC3), I will gladly pay for those games over and over and over again on different platforms even if I own them on other platforms. Those people put countless hours into a game for me that I get sooo much enjoyment from. Hours after hours after hours after hours of enjoyment. Hell Borderlands 2 has given me easily over 100 hours alone. I'm glad and proud that I pay for those games, they deserve it. Games like that alone are worth more than 60 bucks, but that's all they're asking for.

So say what you want, but not everybody is getting screwed over by companies as bad as you make it sound. And you know what, developers that give me countless hours of gameplay are always going to get my money, and I'm always going to support them, and I'm always going to pay full price, and guess what, years down the road, I'll have a car. a house, a wife (hopefully kids because I want a little bastard to call my own), just like you. And I'll be living happily just as much as you whether you saved money by stealing... excuse me, I mean pirating games or not.


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> You talk as if anybody buying games is getting screwed over. That's not true, that's subjective, opinionated what you're spouting.
> 
> Games like Borderlands 2, Batman Arkham Asylum/Arkham City, Assassin's Creed 2 (not AC3), I will gladly pay for those games over and over and over again on different platforms even if I own them on other platforms. Those people put countless hours into a game for me that I get sooo much enjoyment from. Hours after hours after hours after hours of enjoyment. Hell Borderlands 2 has given me easily over 100 hours alone. I'm glad and proud that I pay for those games, they deserve it. Games like that alone are worth more than 60 bucks, but that's all they're asking for.
> 
> So say what you want, but not everybody is getting screwed over by companies as bad as you make it sound. And you know what, developers that give me countless hours of gameplay are always going to get my money, and I'm always going to support them, and I'm always going to pay full price, and guess what, years down the road, I'll have a car. a house, a wife (hopefully kids because I want a little bastard to call my own), just like you. And I'll be living happily just as much as you whether you saved money by stealing... excuse me, I mean pirating games or not.


 
Hahaha Ok man. As I said Your money, your call. Just let us pirates alone and don't judge us


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Because somehow now pirating is taking the original product away from somebody when its clear its just making a copy and using that copy.


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## DinohScene (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm surprised it reached 23 pages without being locked .__.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 13, 2013)

Look, a game dev is giving free suport for people who is taking his profit.
http://torrentfreak.com/games-developer-gives-customer-support-to-pirate-bay-downloaders-121026/

And from the Positech Games...
http://positech.co.uk/cliffsblog/2008/08/09/genuine-call-for-emails-from-pirates/


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 13, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> Look, a game dev is giving free suport for people who is taking his profit.
> http://torrentfreak.com/games-developer-gives-customer-support-to-pirate-bay-downloaders-121026/
> 
> And from the Positech Games...
> http://positech.co.uk/cliffsblog/2008/08/09/genuine-call-for-emails-from-pirates/


 
You do realize this is more publicity than anything else?

If you openly come out saying "Piracy is bad and I don't like when people pirate my game" people boo you. If you say "OH I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PIRACY HERE LET ME HELP YOU PIRATE MY GAME" then a few pirates may go "Eh, might as well buy this one."

Not really proof that "piracy isn't bad", just more proof that people complain more about anti-piracy than being pro-piracy.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Wow... This topic...

Abortion and piracy in the same discussion?  Really?

Robin Hood?  That would be a nice analogy...except...it's not.  Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor so they could SURVIVE...  Not to play goddamned games.

When did GBAtemp become full of know-it-all, entitled assholes?


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Wow... This topic...
> 
> Abortion and piracy in the same discussion? Really?
> 
> ...


The day rich assholes took advantage of the system and hide behind laws so it can punish ayone who doesn't conform to their ridiculous overpriced requests.

People pirate for whatever reason and it won't stop now even when some elitist thinks he can shove his stupid morals into people's faces and force them to change.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 13, 2013)

Hate to go back a few pages but justifying piracy because your government supports abortion is just one of the dumbest fucking things I have read on this website, and that's saying something.

Carry on.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Hate to go back a few pages but justifying piracy because your government supports abortion is just one of the dumbest fucking things I have read on this website, and that's saying something.
> 
> Carry on.


I have never said that.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> I have never said that.


 
I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about the guy you were arguing with.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Seriously dude.  I'd completely understand if these huge , evil companies were pricing a loaf of bread @ $60 or a carton of eggs.  But you're pissing about a luxury item being overpriced.  I'm guessing you must have threads elsewhere talling about how overpriced caviar and ferraris are too right?  No?  I see.  So your priorities are just fucked then.  You don't need games to survive.  You're just a crackhead looking for a fix and bitching because you can't afford it.

Games are cheaper now than they ever were.  Why weren't people bitching about it in the nes/snes days?  Because they knew it was a luxury item and piracy wasn't even an option available.  People used to make due with what they had.

Movie tickets are $8.75 here.  That's about $4.37 per hour of entertainment on average.  Let's say you buy a game like skyrim @ $60 and put 100 hours into a playthough.  You paid $0.09 per hour for that experience.  And that's not even factoring in multiple playthroughs.  Even games like CoD where the campaigns blow, people put 100s of hours into multiplayer.  Put 20 hours into a playthrough of Bioshock and you've still paid less per hour than a movie ticket.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about the guy you were arguing with.


Oh. Sorry, misunderstanding on my part.


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## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Senbei Norimaki said:


> I don't get my morals from the government


This much of the post I agree with.  Legality and morality are two different things.  Legality is a general attempt at outlining morality concerning a group as a whole, but it's not perfect.

After all, look at the whole prohibition thing.  Didn't we learn anything from that?



Romsstar said:


> After all, Anime nowadays provide even better moral standards then most governments.


One Piece is an anime about pirates, he was joking.



Romsstar said:


> Yes, Movies and Games and Music are Entertainment. You could say someone could live without that. But *what would be the point of living if you could do nothing to enjoy it*?


Any of the thousands of things people did before electricity?  Plays, horseplay, sports, physical music (analog instruments), board games, etc...


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## pyromaniac123 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> This much of the post I agree with. Legality and morality are two different things. Legality is a general attempt at outlining morality concerning a group as a whole, but it's not perfect.
> 
> After all, look at the whole prohibition thing. Didn't we learn anything from that?
> 
> ...


 
Snakes and ladders is the shit.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Seriously dude. I'd completely understand if these huge , evil companies were pricing a loaf of bread @ $60 or a carton of eggs. But you're pissing about a luxury item being overpriced. I'm guessing you must have threads elsewhere talling about how overpriced caviar and ferraris are too right? No? I see. So your priorities are just fucked then. You don't need games to survive. You're just a crackhead looking for a fix and bitching because you can't afford it.
> 
> Games are cheaper now than they ever were. Why weren't people bitching about it in the nes/snes days? Because they knew it was a luxury item and piracy wasn't even an option available. People used to make due with what they had.
> 
> Movie tickets are $8.75 here. That's about $4.37 per hour of entertainment on average. Let's say you buy a game like skyrim @ $60 and put 100 hours into a playthough. You paid $0.09 per hour for that experience. And that's not even factoring in multiple playthroughs. Even games like CoD where the campaigns blow, people put 100s of hours into multiplayer. Put 20 hours into a playthrough of Bioshock and you've still paid less per hour than a movie ticket.


Well its nice you have billions of dollars a year to spend but i'm sure a lot of people here don't have that kind of cash and if they did then i'm sure they would be happy to spend to get everything they want. You also mentioned people making due with what they had and guess what they are and that is the games they pirated, I doubt people pirate the games because they want to but because they use that money to pay for bills and other needs like food and petrol and its not like those are getting any cheaper.

Its nice to see someone who can't see the circumstances of others from top of their high horse but let me ask, have you ever never downloaded an MP3? what about buying a used game? or copied a movie a friend let you borrow because you liked it? or share a game with your friends?
All these things big rich companies hate because they don't profit from it but is it wrong or is it making due?


----------



## Nurio (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Hahaha Ok man. As I said Your money, your call. Just let us pirates alone and don't judge us


He wasn't even judging you. You're acting as if all these white-knight non-pirates are attacking you. "Let Leave us pirates alone" as if most of us in this thread aren't pirates.


----------



## gamewitch (Jan 13, 2013)

Nurio said:


> He wasn't even judging you. You're acting as if all these white-knight non-pirates are attacking you. "Let Leave us pirates alone" as if most of us in this thread aren't pirates.


Probably 3/4 of the posters in this thread have pirated games at some point I mean home is fun and all but let's be for real most people buy flash carts for illegal purposes I know I did


----------



## Nurio (Jan 13, 2013)

...That's exactly my point. Almost everyone in this thread, way more than 3/4, is a pirate in some fashion.


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## gamewitch (Jan 13, 2013)

Yeah I know I am a pirate and proud of it


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Well its nice you have billions of dollars a year to spend but i'm sure a lot of people here don't have that kind of cash and if they did then i'm sure they would be happy to spend to get everything they want. You also mentioned people making due with what they had and guess what they are and that is the games they pirated, I doubt people pirate the games because they want to but because they use that money to pay for bills and other needs like food and petrol and its not like those are getting any cheaper.
> 
> Its nice to see someone who can't see the circumstances of others from top of their high horse but let me ask, have you ever never downloaded an MP3? what about buying a used game? or copied a movie a friend let you borrow because you liked it? or share a game with your friends?
> All these things big rich companies hate because they don't profit from it but is it wrong or is it making due?


This post was just embarrassing to read...

Who's the one on the high horse?  The one reiterating the law?  Or the one the who thinks he's the voice of the disenfranchised gamer?


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> This post was just embarrassing to read...
> 
> Who's the one on the high horse? The one reiterating the law? Or the one the who thinks he's the voice of the disenfranchised gamer?


I have never I was the voice of everyone ele but its clear that anyone who views anything piracy is pure evil needs to be informed of how wrong they are and how big rich companies do lie about how piracy has "affected" them when its clear piracy has done nothing. Look around in this thread, a lot of people admit to pirating and has no second thoughts or problems about it.


----------



## Veho (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> I doubt people pirate the games because they want to


So would you say video games are a vital need, or an inalienable human right?


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> I have never I was the voice of everyone ele but its clear that anyone who views anything piracy is pure evil needs to be informed of how wrong tjhey are and how big rich companies do lie about how piracy has "affected" them when its clear piracy has done nothing. Look around in this thread, a lot of people admit to pirating and has no second thoughts or problems about it.


Who here called piracy "pure evil"?  My last post said yours was embarrassing to read.  It's embarrassing because you exaggerate. A lot.  Companies do lie.  About a lot.  But you do realize that playing games, regardless of whether you pay for them, legitimizes what they do, right?  If the games weren't worth it you wouldn't bother pirating them.  I pirated just like everyone else here when I joined.  I never had any delusions about being Robin Hood or liberating gamers everywhere.  I just thought, "why pay for that which you could have for free?"  Well, then I grew up and out of that childish entitlement.  It's an addiction.  You should be going to meetings...  I've got my 3 year coin.


----------



## dickfour (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm playing a pirated, hacked Pier Solar Rom right now. Because I'm not going to buy a console like the Genesis that's perfectly emulated on a million different platforms. Piracy saves space.


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## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Veho said:


> So would you say video games are a vital need, or an inalienable human right?


Neither. No one is forced to pirate, they choose to due to their own personal circumstances and even if its not games but movies instead this conversation would still occur.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Who here called piracy "pure evil"? My last post said yours was embarrassing to read. It's embarrassing because you exaggerate. A lot. Companies do lie. About a lot. But you do realize that playing games, regardless of whether you pay for them, legitimizes what they do, right? If the games weren't worth it you wouldn't bother pirating them. I pirated just like everyone else here when I joined. I never had any delusions about being Robin Hood or liberating gamers everywhere. I just thought, "why pay for that which you could have for free?" Well, then I grew up and out of that childish entitlement. It's an addiction. You should be going to meetings... I've got my 3 year coin.


Exagerrate what? the utter truth to how piracy is really affecting the gaming industry. Really, a few years ago big rich companies said that piracy was killing the music industry and is the music industry dead or is music still being made?

There is a big difference between making games an having the compulsive need to over charge people because they think all gamers are sheep and will just rush out and buy whatever crap they made not to mention the retailers joining in and adding extra to the already high cost. Its funny that you think I sit behind my computer all day downloading games when I have other things like school, homework and also my job I that have to go to, so if anyone has a problem its you who thinks they're entitled to shove shit into people's faces because they don't pirate anymore. Go pirate some games and get off that high horse you love to sit on.


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Exagerrate what? the utter truth to how piracy is really affecting the gaming industry. Really, a few years ago big rich companies said that piracy was killing the music industry and is the music industry dead or is music still being made?
> 
> There is a big difference between making games an having the compulsive need to over charge people because they think all gamers are sheep and will just rush out and buy whatever crap they made not to mention the retailers joining in and adding extra to the already high cost. Its funny that you think I sit behind my computer all day downloading games when I have other things like school, homework and also my job I that have to go to, so if anyone has a problem its you who thinks they're entitled to shove shit into people's faces because they don't pirate anymore. Go pirate some games and get off that high horse you love to sit on.


Sorry guy.  I don't have time for video games.  I have a family to raise and a 55hour a week job.  GBAtemp just happens to be good way to help a dump pass through.

And you exaggerate the positions of the people you argue against, along with the "evil video game conglomerates"


----------



## Romsstar (Jan 13, 2013)

If games are a luxury product, then certainly music and movies are as well? Since people pirate all three of those.

And I never realized this discussion was only about games.

So bottom line, if we are living in a world where music, movies and games are considered luxury products, then something is going really wrong with this world...


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Romsstar said:


> If games are a luxury product, then certainly music and movies are as well? Since people pirate all three of those.
> 
> And I never realized this discussion was only about games.
> 
> So bottom line, if we are living in a world where music, movies and games are considered luxury products, then something is going really wrong with this world...



lux·u·ry  (lgzh-r, lksh-)
n. pl. lux·u·ries
*1. Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort.*
2. Something expensive or hard to obtain.
3. Sumptuous living or surroundings: lives in luxury.
adj.
Providing luxury: a luxury car.
[Middle English luxurie, lust, from Old French, from Latin luxuria, excess, luxury, from luxus.]
Synonyms: luxury, extravagance, frill
These nouns denote something desirable that is not a necessity: the real luxury of riding in a limousine; a simple wedding without any extravagances; caviar and other culinary frills.
Antonym: necessity


Luxury is not limited to billionaires.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

DinohScene said:


> I'm surprised it reached 23 pages without being locked .__.


 

Why did you have to jinx the thread, whyyyy??? There, now it's doomed for sure.


----------



## Romsstar (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> lux·u·ry (lgzh-r, lksh-)
> n. pl. lux·u·ries
> *1. Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort.*
> 2. Something expensive or hard to obtain.
> ...


 
By this definition, anything but breathing, drinking, sleeping and eating is considered a luxury product.  If you agree with this, then I have nothing to add anymore.


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## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

Technically, the line between essential and luxury - or wants and needs, if you want to be blunt - is a thin, nigh-imaginary line. The degree that culture, individual differences and the evolution of the human psyche affects this is very complex.

For example, a Tibetan monk in a rainforest in the middle of godforsaken nowhere needs only oxygen, food, a place of shelter [he is in a forest, after all] and perhaps a change of clothes. A person in a metropolis requires all those, plus entertainment, transport, a way to conduct human contact [monks can go long times without this due to meditation... or so they say] etc etc etc.

Also, musically-inclined people will need music, literature-oriented people require some form of written media [fictional or non-fictional], etc etc.

I fail to see why you guys are debating luxury/necessity based solely on a very limited set of factors. It's bound to get you nowhere since it is highly subjective.


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## Romsstar (Jan 13, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> Technically, the line between essential and luxury - or wants and needs, if you want to be blunt - is a thin, nigh-imaginary line. The degree that culture, individual differences and the evolution of the human psyche affects this is very complex.
> 
> For example, a Tibetan monk in a rainforest in the middle of godforsaken nowhere needs only oxygen, food, a place of shelter [he is in a forest, after all] and perhaps a change of clothes. A person in a metropolis requires all those, plus entertainment, transport, a way to conduct human contact [monks can go long times without this due to meditation... or so they say] etc etc etc.
> 
> ...


 
Good then we have established: Depending on your background, the society and culture you grew up in, and on your interests, music and literature can be an essential need. Subjective.
This holds just as true for games and movies then.

Thus: Making an essential need for a person a luxury item is the cause of piracy.
Thus 2: If an essential need (which is something very subjective as we established) is made a  luxury item and the only way of getting it, is copying (not stealing) it, then piracy is something
that the big companies CREATED.

But of course someone will contradict me there again.


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Romsstar said:


> Good then we have established: Depending on your background, the society and culture you grew up in, and on your interests, music and literature can be an essential need. Subjective.
> This holds just as true for games and movies then.
> 
> Thus: Making an essential need for a person a luxury item is the cause of piracy.
> ...


Failing to see the correlation between video games and "an essential need"...


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Sorry guy. I don't have time for video games. I have a family to raise and a 55hour a week job. GBAtemp just happens to be good way to help a dump pass through.
> 
> And you exaggerate the positions of the people you argue against, along with the "evil video game conglomerates"


Show me where I said "evil video game conglomerates" cause I sure know what I wrote and it certainly wasn't that. 

Then pirate some movies or music or both cause I do that as well if you plan on criticizing me for not giving the rich my money.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Failing to see the correlation between video games and "an essential need"...


Wow Just wow. Ignorance just took a huge step forward.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> Technically, the line between essential and luxury - or wants and needs, if you want to be blunt - is a thin, nigh-imaginary line. The degree that culture, individual differences and the evolution of the human psyche affects this is very complex.
> 
> For example, a Tibetan monk in a rainforest in the middle of godforsaken nowhere needs only oxygen, food, a place of shelter [he is in a forest, after all] and perhaps a change of clothes. A person in a metropolis requires all those, plus entertainment, transport, a way to conduct human contact [monks can go long times without this due to meditation... or so they say] etc etc etc.
> 
> ...


No dude, the line is very thick and clear.

Need: Without it you will DIE.  CEASE TO LIVE.  YOUR BODILY FUNCTIONS WILL CEASE.
Want: All the other stuff.



Romsstar said:


> Good then we have established: Depending on your background, the society and culture you grew up in, and on your interests, music and literature can be an essential need. Subjective.


No, you will not LITERALLY DIE without music and literature.

Why don't you guys pick up a science book for once in your life?


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Wow Just wow. Ignorance just took a huge step forward.


How so?  Video games are not an essential need.  Food, water, and sleep are essential needs.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> No dude, the line is very thick and clear.
> 
> Need: Without it you will DIE. CEASE TO LIVE. YOUR BODILY FUNCTIONS WILL CEASE.
> Want: All the other stuff.


So everything thing else apart from eating, drinking, breathing, sleeping and going to the toilet is optional? If thats all we're meant to do with out lives then its pretty worthless and suicide seems more fun.



JoostinOnline said:


> How so? Video games are not an essential need. Food, water, and sleep are essential needs.


Neither is friends or socializing and yet they're emphasized as essentials.


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> So everything thing else apart from eating, drinking, breathing, sleeping and going to the toilet is optional? If thats all we're meant to do with out lives then its pretty worthless and suicide seems more fun.


Of course they are optional.  Besides, there are plenty of forms of entertainment that don't cost money.  You know, people did exist before video games.


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> So everything thing else apart from eating, drinking, breathing, sleeping and going to the toilet is optional? If thats all we're meant to do with out lives then its pretty worthless and suicide seems more fun.


Please do.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> Of course they are optional. Besides, there are plenty of forms of entertainment that don't cost money. You know, people did exist before video games.


And you think that changes the argument in any way?



wrettcaughn said:


> Please do.


I rather push you off before jumping.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> So everything thing else apart from eating, drinking, breathing, sleeping and going to the toilet is optional? If thats all we're meant to do with out lives then its pretty worthless and suicide seems more fun.


There you all go again, making random connections that don't exist.
Who said anything about what we're meant to do with our lives?

The concern is what we need to survive.  Those are needs.

Anything else is not a human need.


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> And you think that changes the argument in any way?


What are you talking about?  Video games are not essential to survival, as has been proven since the dawn of time.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> There you all go again, making random connections that don't exist.
> Who said anything about what we're meant to do with our lives?
> 
> The concern is what we need to survive. Those are needs.
> ...


Life is pretty worthless without any form of entertainment and this can be easily proven I mean could you go through a week without any so called "wants" cause I really doubt it. Again this is hardly relevant to the topic in the first place.


----------



## chyyran (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> So everything thing else apart from eating, drinking, breathing, sleeping and going to the toilet is optional? If thats all we're meant to do with out lives then its pretty worthless and suicide seems more fun.
> 
> 
> Neither is friends or socializing and yet they're emphasized as essentials.



Doesn't matter if your life would be reduced to a useless pile of shit without those things, if your heart continues to beat without those things, you don't _need_ them.


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Life is pretty worthless without any form of entertainment and this can be easily proven I mean could you go through a week without any so called "wants" cause I really doubt it. Again this is hardly relevant to the topic in the first place.


Committing piracy is not the only way to be entertained.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> What are you talking about? Video games are not essential to survival, as has been proven since the dawn of time.


Thats not even related to the topic and I have no bloody idea why emphasizing video games as a want instead of a need is doing anything in this topic at all apart from being annoying and redundant.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> And you think that changes the argument in any way?


Yes.  A bunch of idiots here and claiming that they "need" video games for entertainment, claiming that entertainment is a "need" and thus they can pirate because they "need" video games as entertainment.

There's two things wrong with that idea.

1 - Video games are not a need (covered).  *Anybody who thinks they are is a fucking idiot (or simply spoiled rotten) and needs to go back to school.*  This is along the lines of shit like "The sun turns into the moon at night" and "sand is made out of ground-up babies".  This is simply not true, and a distorted world view that should be corrected (as a proper understanding of basic world functions is preferred for interaction in modern society).

2 - Video games and other forms of entertainment that cost money are not the only forms of entertainment.  Good old physical play (anything from children's tag to professional football), board games, etc.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> No dude, the line is very thick and clear.
> 
> Need: Without it you will DIE. CEASE TO LIVE. YOUR BODILY FUNCTIONS WILL CEASE.
> Want: All the other stuff.


 
I would like to respectfully disagree. In biology, it has been noted that in highly-developed species [notably in mammals and some avians], animals can and often will take the time to play, or [whatever recreational activity it is capable of]. Playing is a form of mental exercise, and it can be successfully argued [I believe] that the higher a species' mental capacity is, the more 'play' or indeed recreation it needs.

In fact, it is a well-documented fact that humans, in their old age, are usually better if they spent a significant [what amounts to significant at that age, anyway] amount of time for recreational activities, noting that it helps preserve neurons in the brain. Now, if we can postulate that preserving brain cells, and therefore keeping the central nervous system in good order, is an essential in old age [or in any age, in fact], then we can file 'recreation' as a need.


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Thats not even related to the topic and I have no bloody idea why emphasizing video games as a want instead of a need is doing anything in this topic at all apart from being annoying and redundant.


You are the one who is arguing that they are necessary! XD


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Life is pretty worthless without *any* form of entertainment and this can be easily proven I mean could you go through a week without any so called "wants" cause I really doubt it. Again this is hardly relevant to the topic in the first place.



So you say "any" form of entertainment...but you limit "any" to only video games...


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

I think Just Another Gamer is Just Another Troll.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> You are the one who is arguing that they are necessary! XD


I have never once said they were necessary. I said that pirating isn't a problem at all and anyone who thinks otherwise is an elitist asshole who needs to get off their high horse and shut up.



Rydian said:


> Yes. A bunch of idiots here and claiming that they "need" video games for entertainment, claiming that entertainment is a "need" and thus they can pirate because they "need" video games as entertainment.
> 
> There's two things wrong with that idea.
> 
> ...


And this makes pirating bad because? 

No one here said we need gaming, we just saying we pirate games and I hardly find pirating related to what we need and want.


----------



## chyyran (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Life is pretty worthless without any form of entertainment and this can be easily proven I mean could you go through a week without any so called "wants" cause I really doubt it. Again this is hardly relevant to the topic in the first place.




Life might be worthless without any form of entertainment, but as long as the life continues to exist without it, it's not needed, per se, to live.


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> No one here said we need gaming, we just saying we pirate games and I hardly find pirating related to what we need and want.





Just Another Gamer said:


> Wow Just wow. Ignorance just took a huge step forward.
> 
> 
> wrettcaughn said:
> ...


----------



## Romsstar (Jan 13, 2013)

I think people have to read more carefully. Since when games are the only thing being pirated? We are talking about whether pirating is ok or not. Some claim no, some claim yes.
Others are just reducing everything to games only because GBATemp deals with games (but also NOT exclusively)

But when talking about things that are being pirated, so are books, movies, films, and software.

I needed a book for my thesis that cost about 80 Euro. Couldn't afford it.
So expect me not to write my thesis because I can't afford a book?
Yeah, luxury product...

And yeah, talking about that:

A lot of Graphic Designers at the university say that they do need Photoshop but can't afford it. So they pirate. Teachers approve.

Love it or hate it, there are way more people who approve and think piracy is ok then the other way around.

The only problem is that those who think it's not happen to be the ones with the money...


----------



## Chary (Jan 13, 2013)

You know, I do have to say, I CANNOT BELIEVE how many times I have had to purchase Sonic 3. Genesis, Xbox, Xbox 360, Wii, GameCube, ps2. I've bought the dang thing so many times, just because I love the game so much. So, why is it illegal, if I pirate the game onto my Flashcart, just so I can play it on my 3DS?


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Only an idiot would ignore my previous post that clearly says I also pirate movies and music, so unless you have mental problems go back a few posts and you see that I did say I pirate other things than just games.
> 
> 
> And I think your an asshole. This changes nothing in the topic.


Grow the fuck up.  You're trying to justify piracy by saying you're entitled to entertainment.  Numerous people tell there are other ways to entertain yourself _legally_ and you think saying "i don't only pirate games, i pirate movies and music too" somehow proves your point.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> I would like to respectfully disagree. In biology, it has been noted that in highly-developed species [notably in mammals and some avians], animals can and often will take the time to play, or [whatever recreational activity it is capable of]. Playing is a form of mental exercise, and it can be successfully argued [I believe] that the higher a species' mental capacity is, the more 'play' or indeed recreation it needs.


No, that's not a need.  That's a natural function, but is not required to live.

You know what else is natural?  Sex.  Reproduction is programmed into all of us.  But you can never have sex in your life, and simply die of old age... so sex is not a need, even though it'd be natural for us to do.  *Humans will not die from a lack of sex, therefore is it not a need.*

Here, since the concept is SO FUCKING HARD, let me name some examples of actual needs.


Air: Humans need air.  When we talk about air, we're talking about the Earth's atmosphere, which contains a certain distribution of oxygen.  Oxygen goes into the lungs and then into the blood where it's distributed to the organs and tissues and used for vital metabolic functions.  Starved of oxygen intake, a human will die within minutes.
Vitamin A: "Vitamin" comes from the phrase "*vit*al *amin*o acid", and refers to any series of nutrients that humans need to survive, but cannot produce naturally (and thus must intake from the surroundings).  Of note, "Vitamin D" is actually synthesized by the body when exposed to ample amounts of sunlight through the skin, so it's technically not a "vitamin" in the sense of requiring intake, but by the time scientists figured that one out people were calling it a vitamin anyways, so nobody cares enough to change it.
Shelter from the elements: Humans need to maintain a certain internal body temperature to function.  If humans live in too cold or too hot a place without any surroundings to counteract the weather, the internal temperature can rise too high and cause death via heat stroke (like brain damage from chemical reactions involved in the heat), or go too low and cause cessation of certain critical body functions (like blood flow).  These things will kill humans, so shelter from the elements is considered a need.

Those are examples of needs.  If you are deprived of those, you will die.

Video games are not a need, as millions of humans have gone their entire lives without them, and not died due to causes directly related to a lack of video games.



Shinigami357 said:


> In fact, it is a well-documented fact that humans, in their old age, are usually better if they spent a significant [what amounts to significant at that age, anyway] amount of time for recreational activities, noting that it helps preserve neurons in the brain. Now, if we can postulate that preserving brain cells, and therefore keeping the central nervous system in good order, is an essential in old age [or in any age, in fact], then we can file 'recreation' as a need.


No we can't, because they live without it.

Something that can extend natural life is not need.  Something that is REQUIRED for humans to biologically function is a need.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Ron said:


> Life might be worthless without any form of entertainment, but as long as the life continues to exist without it, it's not needed, per se, to live.


Exactly. Just living and existing in itself is pretty sad cause your just a shell and empty shell that is just there and thats why people seek out forms of entertainment regardless of what it is.

@*JoostinOnline* - And where have I said gaming is essential to living? hm? You're working really hard to be stupid aren't you.




wrettcaughn said:


> Grow the fuck up. You're trying to justify piracy by saying you're entitled to entertainment. Numerous people tell there are other ways to entertain yourself _legally_ and think saying "i don't only pirate games, i pirate movies and music too" somehow proves your point.


Where have I said i'm entitled to it? Point out in my posts that I have used the sentence "I am entitled to games" cause I have never said that and all your doing is just acting like a child because someone else doesn't do exactly what you want them to do.

I can pirate what I want since its my fucking choice, what makes it that you say I shouldn't and I have to just stop? Where in the world does it say that I must stop doing something because some ignorant ass thinks its morally and ethically wrong? I think you need to grow up and face facts that people pirate and they won't stop because someone said its "wrong".


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> @*JoostinOnline* - And where have I said gaming is essential to living? hm? You're working really hard to be stupid aren't you.


wrettcaughn said video games weren't an essential need, and you said he was ignorant.

Anyway, I'm reporting you for trolling and flaming.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> And this makes pirating bad because?


Hey look, connecting random things again!

I was correcting people that video games are not a need.



Chary said:


> So, why is it illegal, if I pirate the game onto my Flashcart, just so I can play it on my 3DS?


Because the versions for different systems are technically different products and the purchase of one is not the purchase of others.


----------



## Issac (Jan 13, 2013)

Video games are more a luxury product/hobby than music, literature and movies. (now, I'm using the definition that it does cost more money, not that it's more or less essential).

Many (most) people have a TV: There is always some free channel you can watch (or I'd rather guess so at least) which has information, moving pictures, ads.. movies... It's relatively cheap. 
Music, get it free from the radio, spotify...
literature, well... there are always shit to read. But for example, a library... free books. 

video games? No... there is some sale every now and then, when it's a bit cheaper. But you need a TV in the first place. And you need an relatively expensive console. sometimes even internet, special controllers and peripherals. 

So No one is entitled to gaming. That's just how it is. 

I do think everyone is entitled to reading and music. Hence: Library and Radio.

And I'm sure as hell not saying that I don't pirate. Of course I do. But I don't think I am doing right, pirating. I am doing wrong. And I don't think pirating = stealing. Pirating = copying, and I do think that it hurts more than buying used games and I will write why:

A game dumper buys one game, and X amount of people copies it. Just as a fair example, 5000 is NOT an exaggeration.
A gamer buys one game, finishes it or doesn't like it and he sells it to ONE other person. Now that person may sell it and so forth but that chain is way slower and smaller than pirating. Anyone who compares them both are silly.

I am not saying that piracy hurts companies, or that it doesn't hurt... I wouldn't know that for sure, so I can't express anything about that.

Another thing; $60 isn't much money for a game honestly. They are not uncommonly $92 in Sweden by the way.
No, take a relatively big game, battlefield 3 perhaps... How many people are working on that game? around 100? Not impossible. Now how long do they work on it? what are these peoples salaries? and all the employment fees and taxes companies and employees must pay. and they nowadays must get payed in advance, before the game is on sale. and transportation, and production, and advertisement, and somewhere to do their work, and devkits... (And they also aren't doing this for charity either, they want to make some profit as well, not just get even).
And then a video game store? They don't magically have workers appearing, they have salaries. and taxes and fees. Oh wait, they don't get the locale for free either, no they must rent their spot for quite a lot each month. Oh, and they got to advertise their store so people buy there instead of any other place. And again, these also want to make some profit as well, why would they otherwise bother having a store?

Now, is $60 too much to ask, to finance all that? I honestly don't think so. (Can I afford it? nope, not now.)


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Hey look, connecting random things again!
> 
> I was correcting people that video games are not a need.


Its not random because you continually pointing out what you think of needs and wants which is why I have no bloody idea why you bring it up in this thread when it is hardly related. It would fit better if the thread was "Is video games a big part of your life" so back to my original point, needs and wants are related to whether pirating is good or bad because?


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> No, that's not a need. That's a natural function, but is not required to live.
> 
> You know what else is natural? Sex. Reproduction is programmed into all of us. But you can never have sex in your life, and simply die of old age... so sex is not a need, even though it'd be natural for us to do. *Humans will not die from a lack of sex, therefore is it not a need.*
> 
> ...


 
 Under that definition, all 7 billion of us might as well be comatose as of this moment and that would be 'life'. No, sir. I believe you are counting the requirements for BIOLOGICAL EXISTENCE. Just because you exist biologically doesn't mean you're 'living'. This is why I said the idea is subjective.

Being as we're all human, let's keep it at human level, then... Since you did say, everything that is required for 'biological function', then I believe I can argue that keeping one's own self sane is a requirement for biological function. After all, we're humans, we're a product of thousands of years of evolution.

Our mental faculties are tasked with keeping the whole of the being alive. Keeping the mind healthy is an extension of that task, and keeping the mind busy/entertained [people also have different ideas about 'entertainment', so let's not get into that] is essential. Without this, the system quickly shuts down, or worse yet, turns self-destructive. I think we'll agree that self-destructive isn't quite helpful in keeping one alive.

In fact, if one wishes, a person can be trained/conditioned to use need less of the 'essentials'... as long as his mind is working.


---

That said, this is so horribly off-topic as it is. I have already given my view of this as per my first post ['if you don't get caught, then it's ok' according to people] anyway. Cheers.


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yes. A bunch of idiots here and claiming that they "need" video games for entertainment, claiming that entertainment is a "need" and thus they can pirate because they "need" video games as entertainment.
> 
> There's two things wrong with that idea.
> 
> ...


 

Again on that NEED thing? Many surveys has shown that entertainment prolongs life... ENTERTAINMENT IS A FUCKING NEED. Also there are other things that you can survive without them but they still are needs... Want some examples? A house, Clothes, Car, phone, having a bath with shampoo, teeth cleaning, cutting our nails, having sex... Stop equalizing NEEDS to only what is needed to survive... This makes you look stupid and not the fact that games are a need... Which to many of us they are.


----------



## Clydefrosch (Jan 13, 2013)

pirating is never ok.

just deal with the fact that you do something wrong whenever you pirate anything. its that simple. dont pretend there is a morally justifiable reason. if you dont have the money for videogames, maybe you should look into books.

or save up money. or find a cheaper way to entertain yourself.
because even if we take entertainment to be essential for a comfortable life, videogames (and the newest games at that) are not the only source of entertainment.


----------



## dehry (Jan 13, 2013)

Issac said:


> Video games are more a luxury product/hobby than music, literature and movies. (now, I'm using the definition that it does cost more money, not that it's more or less essential).
> 
> Many (most) people have a TV: There is always some free channel you can watch (or I'd rather guess so at least) which has information, moving pictures, ads.. movies... It's relatively cheap.
> Music, get it free from the radio, spotify...
> ...


 
Don't use logic here, the skiddies just want ROM NAO. 

Honestly, two generations back seems to be just fine for emulation. That means GBA games, PSOne,  Anything Sega, and Gamecube are the most recent things you could probably get by saying there is no other way to get the game (although even then some of those games are offered for $5-$10 as a legacy title on the newer consoles. )

Just be honest with yourself when you pirate. Just because it is easy to copy a game, doesn't make it any less illegal. Of that $60. maybe three dollars is going to the cost of printing on a disc, but everything else is the development cost.


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

dehry said:


> Don't use logic here, the skiddies just want ROM NAO.
> 
> Honestly, two generations back seems to be just fine for emulation. That means GBA games, PSOne, Anything Sega, and Gamecube are the most recent things you could probably get by saying there is no other way to get the game (although even then some of those games are offered for $5-$10 as a legacy title on the newer consoles. )
> 
> Just be honest with yourself when you pirate. Just because it is easy to copy a game, doesn't make it any less illegal. *Of that $60. maybe three dollars is going to the cost of printing on a disc, but everything else is the development cost*.


 
Lol no it is not everything else development cost... maybe another 3 dollars is going on development cost... and the rest is pure profit... That is why those companies have billions of dollars profit every year...


----------



## Issac (Jan 13, 2013)

dehry said:


> Just be honest with yourself when you pirate. Just because it is easy to copy a game, doesn't make it any less illegal. Of that $60. *maybe three dollars is going to the cost of printing on a disc*, but everything else is the development cost.


 
Actually that depends on the quantity of printed discs (+ casings)... But It's often less than those $3. Its dirt cheap, that part (evened out on all copies).


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Just Another Gamer said:


> Its not random


I wasn't saying it's okay or not okay to pirate in general, I was stating that using the "need" as an excuse for piracy is bullshit because it's not a need.

I mean it's like saying that you need blowjobs to survive, and therefor people must give you blowjobs.  That doesn't work.



Just Another Gamer said:


> because you continually pointing out what you think of needs and wants


It's not just what I think, it's very clearly defined.
http://frugalliving.about.com/od/frugalliving101/qt/Wants_vs_Needs.htm
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articles/economics/wantsandneeds1.htm



Just Another Gamer said:


> which is why I have no bloody idea why you bring it up in this thread when it is hardly related.


Have you not been reading the thread?

People say it's okay to pirate because they "need" videogames... but that's false, video games are not a need, which is why I'm responding.


----------



## Smuff (Jan 13, 2013)

emigre said:


> I pirate because I can.
> 
> End of.


 
Me too. Also because I want to.


----------



## Just Another Gamer (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> I wasn't saying it's okay or not okay to pirate in general, I was stating that using the "need" as an excuse for piracy is bullshit because it's not a need.
> 
> I mean it's like saying that you need blowjobs to survive, and therefor people must give you blowjobs. That doesn't work.
> 
> ...


I only see few people use needing games as an excuse for piracy and thats it. So its mostly them not understanding the difference but they won't no matter how much you tell them.

Sorry about that. I personally know the difference before you ranted on and on about it and don't care because I found it unrelated to the topic at hand.

Yes video games aren't a need, that has been established pages back and no one disputes that, I didn't but I just wanted to point out the difference between living and existing per the wants v needs logic but it doesn't change that for me currently my problem is about asses who sit on their high horse and expect people to not pirate because they said so but if you wish so we can have a conversation on needs v wants and its impact on current state of life.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> No, sir. I believe you are counting the requirements for BIOLOGICAL EXISTENCE.


Yes, that is what a need is, welcome to the point.



Shinigami357 said:


> Just because you exist biologically doesn't mean you're 'living'. This is why I said the idea is subjective.


"Living" and "personally enjoying your life" are two separate things.  *Phrases like "really living" are hyperbole, not fact.*  There is no "Life++" state.



Shinigami357 said:


> Being as we're all human, let's keep it at human level, then... Since you did say, everything that is required for 'biological function', then I believe I can argue that keeping one's own self sane is a requirement for biological function. After all, we're humans, we're a product of thousands of years of evolution.


Do you know why we have insane asylums?  To contain insane people.  Now, if insane people weren't alive, why would we contain them in facilities and try to treat them, opposed to just burying them in the ground (or cremating them) like the usual cadavers? 



Shinigami357 said:


> Our mental faculties are tasked with keeping the whole of the being alive. Keeping the mind healthy is an extension of that task, and keeping the mind busy/entertained [people also have different ideas about 'entertainment', so let's not get into that] is essential. Without this, the system quickly shuts down, or worse yet, turns self-destructive. I think we'll agree that self-destructive isn't quite helpful in keeping one alive.


So it's not just science you slept through, but history as well?

I repeat: Humans have survived without entertainment and video games for millions of years.  Your theories are wrong when applied to this situation because if what you're saying is true, then humans would not be able to live and function without video games.

*However humans can live just fine without them, so you're obviously wrong.*


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

Just a note... Since I think this thread's devolved too far to rescue it any more... Is it me, or did the title slightly influence how this whole shebang turned into what it is now?

As you can see, it asks 'when' is pirating ok. There's like a slight air of 'piracy is ok under certain situations' to it. Well, one can see how proponents of this idea are defending thus far. I've read other threads about piracy before, with differently worded titles, and given that most of them had a title that either condemns or tries to stay neutral, the majority in those seemed to be slightly more anti in general stance [there are still pros, of course].

It seems fascinating when you think about it...


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> There is no "Life++" state.


Actually there is, but it's only unlocked after beating Life on hard difficulty.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> ENTERTAINMENT IS A FUCKING NEED.


Do us all a favor and start school over.

These four year olds are learning more than you about the subject, for the love of god!





jimskeet2002 said:


> Also there are other things that you can survive without them but they still are needs...


Jesus fucking christ...

A need is something you cannot survive without.

Therefore if you can survive without something, that something is not a need.


----------



## Shinigami357 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yes, that is what a need is, welcome to the point.
> 
> "Living" and "personally enjoying your life" are two separate things. *Phrases like "really living" are hyperbole, not fact.* There is no "Life++" state.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry. This is prob my last post here, since I think this'll go the way of the EOF soon.

About the asylum thing... Those exist specifically to help heal people whose minds have broken down. Perhaps it is you whose skipped history, because in the Medieval ages, crazy people [or even people with slight issues] were usually relegated to the local witch roast. Modern science recognizes that sanity, and therefore mental health, is a NEED for humans. If you want, you can argue that with your resident psychologist and you'll lose every time.


Also, on the idea that 'humans have survived without entertainment for years'. Really? Didn't the earliest cave men draw shit on the cave walls? Weren't earlier people dreaming up the stories that we all read until now? [i.e. one of the oldest pieces of literature is the illiad, and that was before Christ was born, IIRC]


Also, I never said we needed video games [God help me, go and check]. I said the mind needs entertainment to be sustained.


Anyway...

This discussion just happened to be my pet peeve. Believe me, I've seen people hooked to life assistance. That is not life. Life is being able to use your body, as evolution [or God, depends on your beliefs] gave it to you. If simply eating, breathing and shitting while we all wither away is life, something is terribly wrong with all of us.

I'm telling you, you've seriously got to get a broader view on this. There is a facet of life that exceeds simple existence, though you might dismiss that as BS.


---

That's me outta this thread. Peace.


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> I wasn't saying it's okay or not okay to pirate in general, I was stating that using the "need" as an excuse for piracy is bullshit because it's not a need.
> 
> I mean it's like saying that you need blowjobs to survive, and therefor people must give you blowjobs. That doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Yeah cause what ever PEOPLE write on internet websites like about.com is always true....


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Do us all a favor and start school over.
> 
> These four year olds are learning more than you about the subject, for the love of god!
> 
> ...




So a house or clothes or sex etc are not needs right? Since you can survive without them... Humans did it for thousands of years... If they didn't we wouldn't be here today seeing how idiot you can really be. this is my last post here... I feel like I am talking to kid....

EDIT: And stop googling what ever you don't know and post here the first url you find....
EDIT 2: And even that fcking teacher asks the kids what do you need to live a good life... and one of them says a pet and the teacher tells them to circle it... At least watch what you post here first... IDIOT


----------



## koimayeul (Jan 13, 2013)

Critical condition! Quick, stream to the cortex, mario bros gameplay, HURRY!!


----------



## Issac (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Yeah cause what ever PEOPLE write on internet websites like about.com is always true....


Says the guy linking to greek propaganda pages as fact


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

Issac said:


> Says the guy linking to greek propaganda pages as fact


I linked a page where German channels were talking about profits from crisis in Greece.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Shinigami357 said:


> in the Medieval ages, crazy people [or even people with slight issues] were usually relegated to the local witch roast.


And they died because the humans killed each other, not because of a natural need.  If sanity is a "need", then insane people would be dead due to natural functions... but they're not.  "Insane" people are still very much alive.

BTW, "insanity" is not a medical term, it's a legal one.  You will not find it in the DSM-IV or anything else.  It's a legal term used to denote that somebody was not in control of their actions.



Shinigami357 said:


> Also, on the idea that 'humans have survived without entertainment for years'. Really? Didn't the earliest cave men draw shit on the cave walls? Weren't earlier people dreaming up the stories that we all read until now? [i.e. one of the oldest pieces of literature is the illiad, and that was before Christ was born, IIRC]


Humans that drew on cave walls did not do so instead of hunting/eating, they did so when they were safe and alive.  _They only went to entertainment after their needs were taken care of._



Shinigami357 said:


> Believe me, I've seen people hooked to life assistance. That is not life. Life is being able to use your body, as evolution [or God, depends on your beliefs] gave it to you. If simply eating, breathing and shitting while we all wither away is life, something is terribly wrong with all of us.


If all that's needed for reproduction is the sperm to fertalize the egg, then there's something wrong with us?

Fuck that, I'll hump when I want to, but I'm smart enough to recognize that sexual pleasure is a want, and not a need.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Yeah cause what ever PEOPLE write on internet websites like about.com is always true....


Actually "About" is not a user-driven site, like Wikipedia and Yahoo answers.  It's written by professionals who do it as their job.

Not to mention the site and video I posted from two separate education foundations.


----------



## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> So a house or clothes or sex etc are not needs right? Since you can survive without them... Humans did it for thousands of years... If they didn't we wouldn't be here today seeing how idiot you can really be. this is my last post here... I feel like I am talking to kid....


Yes, a house is not a need, homeless people are everywhere and still alive.  Yes, clothes are not a need, even today there's still tribes living in the jungle that forgo clothing.  Yes, sex is not a need, people die virgins all the time.



jimskeet2002 said:


> EDIT: And stop googling what ever you don't know and post here the first url you find....


"Googling what I don't know"?  Those results confirm what I was saying, _therefore I knew it before I grabbed those links for you_.



jimskeet2002 said:


> EDIT 2: And even that fcking teacher asks the kids what do you need to live a good life... and one of them says a pet and the teacher tells them to circle it... At least watch what you post here first... IDIOT


Pay more attention to the video.  The teacher tells kids to circle their answers and not say them out loud, which is why the teacher corrects a student who says their answer out loud to write it down instead, so the answers can be compared later.

It's like if you were to do the same thing, the teacher would tell you "write it down on the test, don't say it out loud".


----------



## jimskeet2002 (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yes, a house is not a need, homeless people are everywhere and still alive. Yes, clothes are not a need, even today there's still tribes living in the jungle that forgo clothing. Yes, sex is not a need, people die virgins all the time.
> 
> "Googling what I don't know"? Those results confirm what I was saying, _therefore I knew it before I grabbed those links for you_.
> 
> ...


Ok since a house, and everything else is not a need I can't have a conversation with you any more... Too low IQ for my levels.... Bye bye


----------



## porkiewpyne (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Bye bye


Well that's kinda what you said quite a bit ago so.... XD LOL


----------



## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 13, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> You do realize this is more publicity than anything else?
> 
> If you openly come out saying "Piracy is bad and I don't like when people pirate my game" people boo you. If you say "OH I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PIRACY HERE LET ME HELP YOU PIRATE MY GAME" then a few pirates may go "Eh, might as well buy this one."
> 
> Not really proof that "piracy isn't bad", just more proof that people complain more about anti-piracy than being pro-piracy.


 
No, i don't, i only see one guy using pirated testers to find bugs on his game and another wanting to know why people pirate his games and what can he do to solve that.
If some a fair amount of people says "i pirate because it's expensive", the logic answer is sell his games at lower prices.

You guys trying to force people to accept that what they're doing is bad is almost dictatory. You're attacking everyone that feels fine pirating.

What is the point in forcing someone to feel bad about piracy, you want us to cry while we play?

Assuming that no one here never used any intellectual copirighted media without ad paid the asked price, it's hypocritical.


BTW, what you guys think about when someone borrows a game from another person ?


----------



## Issac (Jan 13, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> What is the point in forcing someone to feel bad about piracy, you want us to cry while we play?
> 
> Assuming that no one here never used any intellectual copirighted media without ad paid the asked price, it's hypocritical.


 
That's not the point of the discussion they're having though. They're not saying they should feel bad, they say "don't think you are entitled to have stuff".

And why do they say that? When people say "You're stupid if you pay for something that you get for free. I need to play video games to survive, and I would never pay for it lolz". 

And what do I think of borrowing a game from a friend? I think it's fine. The friend loses his access to the game, he payed for it and is nice enough to let you have it. 
(compare to used games, which I wrote previously)


----------



## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm trying to stay away from that "wants vs. needs" conversation because for me they're right, you don't need vg to survive, but the again i agree that we need to have other things in life than only "needs". So i'm staying out of this.

But if you look a few pages back you will see plenty of comments like "i pirate myself, the case is that you're using something that you're not suppose to" forcelly over and over. for me this is hypocritical, i'm pretty sure that the pirate those medias because they don't want to pay, period.

Just wait and see someone saying that when you lend a game, you're taking food from the dev's table.


----------



## notmeanymore (Jan 13, 2013)

Legitimate reasons for "piracy":
Own game on X, want to play on Y.
Own DVD copy of X, want Bluray quality version.
Not sure if a game will be any good and no demo is offered.

The reasons I pirate (these are not legal reasons):
Game isn't worth asking price, pirate until reasonable. (See: Skyrim and Dishonored still being $60 on Steam)
Never in a million years would I buy whatever game.


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## Skyb (Jan 13, 2013)

@issac

Release game doesn't necessary mean big work or a lot of employee working on it... you take the battlefield 3 as bad example... (tou  can work and win money without necessary ask a lot of money for a copy script work on every version of your game, i don't call battlefield 3 a game as is the most stupid game that i ever seen, a MAP that you can make yourself with prescripted IA and A<->B limitation world, same weapon, same engine, same gameplay... so yes paying 80euros for mod that was released for free in the past on PC yes it's so nice to exploit free work.

Look add Microsoft, they don't stop anybody to hack the XBOX, they tell you to choose between the LIVE and the Hack... so you have the choice... but did the hack made problem on the XBOX Game sales or XBOX360 console ?... not at all, look at HALO 
http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250533/halo-4-sells-over-3-million-units-opening-day/ and you talk about Battlefield http://kotaku.com/5922548/battlefie...s-ea-to-give-more-games-the-premium-treatment

So you talk about stuff that you don't know, pirating aka sharing didn't make any problem, it make more sell...from the last few years of video games, they did enormous selling games... 
COD Black Ops 2 http://mashable.com/2012/11/18/black-ops-2/

So please stop telling that pirating make problem to the video games industry, it's not true, like i said what is the problem, it's that the world and the people go poor as the game package go poor (Battlefield 3 is a Multiplayer game with a real solo mode, so you pay to play few min on a pre scripted map composing) you want to do the same on a better way, take UDK or Blender for free... and you would see that you can made the same with a little time of 3D/Physic learning. 

So please again, i was a dev that stopped to work for this company because first they exploit the worker and the condition of life on this industry is the best one only for the manager, boss and co... the worker on dev department etc... win like a normal worker that work on  a store... 

Again stop saying pirating or co make game sell worst or anything similar

Watch when the video games was really video games few ago that dev release SDK and tools to make mod...that we can make free maps/free characters or new story to exploit more the game we have, how many times i offer my work because i like it to do it, ok to be pay but come on i will never release game that was never finished and ask people to pay for a partial numeric product (look at skylanders, look at every DLC and co, look ridge racer PS Vita, etc...) you think that the editor is right or what ? Skylanders the game that you can't play with portal or even without the portal you still need to have a figurine, the most expensive game that as never release and the crazy of all that, it's that Microsoft or Sony did the same by releasing game that need specific controler, stuff etc... so open your mind before saying that the problem doesn't come from the editor... even you stop piracy like i said, believe me, no one are going to buy more games anyway... like some country that the game was never release, some country like the game is released 2years after at the same price than the day one release etc... 

The main problem is not paying for a game, it's paying for a real work... it's i'm going to shit in the toilet and i go tell you to pay for that and trust me it's a hard work to shit (just a joke, don't go mad)


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 13, 2013)

Smuff said:


> Me too. Also because I want to.


I REALLY can respect that! LOL


----------



## Issac (Jan 13, 2013)

Issac said:


> -snip-
> 
> *I am not saying that piracy hurts companies, or that it doesn't hurt... I wouldn't know that for sure, so I can't express anything about that.*
> 
> ...


 


Skyb said:


> @issac
> 
> Release game doesn't necessary mean big work or a lot of employee working on it... you take the battlefield 3 as bad example... -snip- so yes paying 80euros for mod that was released for free in the past on PC yes it's so nice to exploit free work.
> 
> ...


 
Where did I say that piracy hurt sales? When did I talk about stuff I know nothing about?

and PLEASE... You can make Battlefield 3 a much bigger and better Battlefield 3 in little time with blender? right.

COD sells well because of piracy? that was news to me. However, many play COD on XBOX360, it is a multiplayer game, and as you said yourself: hack the console, or play live. I am truuuly amazed that COD sell well....

You talk all big about being an ex-dev, but all I hear is BS.


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yes, a house is not a need, homeless people are everywhere and still alive. Yes, clothes are not a need, even today there's still tribes living in the jungle that forgo clothing. Yes, sex is not a need, people die virgins all the time.
> 
> "Googling what I don't know"? Those results confirm what I was saying, _therefore I knew it before I grabbed those links for you_.
> 
> ...


 

Ok, I REALLY understand your point. But let's be boring and talk philosophy here: life as a concept can either be biological life (eating, shiting, breathing) OR some sort of metaphysical BS about pursuit of happiness and having some kind of purpose as a breathing, eating and walking being.

That being said, we can argue that, in the Biological concept of being alive, entertainment is not a need. In the Psychological, in the Sociological, in the Philosophical concepts, it is. It all depends on which ground we're treading, cuz in any of these concepts, the applicable definition of "want" and "need" change based on what is considered life.
I usually prefer the concepts of life that dictates that life is to be able to function and coexist inside a given society, and the biological one.
But, there are a lot of people who would disagree, and a battle of concepts wouldn't make anyone more right or wrong.


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Ok since a house, and everything else is not a need I can't have a conversation with you any more... Too low IQ for my levels.... Bye bye


Read my previous post. And _argumentum ad hominem _is not a valid discussion point, either.


----------



## Skyb (Jan 13, 2013)

Yes it's too much money for a game that was based on a free work for example borderlands, portal, battlefield, etc...
now i'm not going to argue, i know exactly was is about, i'm just tired to see blind people like you that always like suck the ass of this company that exploit totaly the worker...
also don't worry about me, i already release free work many times, so thanks for the BS.



> What's the point of not even converting the shaders to x86? naah, let's keep that PPC ! It's an amateur that made the game playable , a french dev called Knyz, then R* used it without asking on 1.0.3.0. or 1.0.4.0 , I don't remember. Rockstar Toronto is to blame here. We can afford these graphics with 50fps for sure even on low computers if even the game was PC optimized.


 
Just a small quote of my work on PC (GTA IV) Rockstar stole my works without thanks me, one dev from them contact me in private to say to me sorry about that...
so continue to talk man, i release this for free without asking any donation because i like it to work on it and help... stolen work is different than sharing work (put name on a work that is not your) yes i call that piracy

So now continue to defend that companies who stole work or take free work from other and just made the own stuff to sell it just after... i has a personal project that was stole by a big company, because i believe them i reveal everythings about it, 6month after the games was released with all my story/gameplay idea and co... it was supposed to be free to play... but no... let make it worst by releasing the game with a expensive price with work from other, nice mind


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 13, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> No, i don't, i only see one guy using pirated testers to find bugs on his game and another wanting to know why people pirate his games and what can he do to solve that.
> If some a fair amount of people says "i pirate because it's expensive", the logic answer is sell his games at lower prices.
> 
> You guys trying to force people to accept that what they're doing is bad is almost dictatory. You're attacking everyone that feels fine pirating.
> ...


 
Man, a while ago I've made a long post discussing this.. so let's try to make a long story short.
What's morally/ethically wrong doesn't necessarily need to make you feel bad, and vice-versa.
So, pirating is morally wrong, this is a fact.
I pirate all the same, and I couldn't care less. I wouldn't if certain circumstances were met, but ATM they are still non-existent.
Do I know I am acting in a morally wrong way? Fuck yeah.
Does this makes me feel bad? Nah.

End of history.


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

JuStYn.Leandro said:


> Man, a while ago I've made a long post discussing this.. so let's try to make a long story short.
> What's morally/ethically wrong doesn't necessarily need to make you feel bad, and vice-versa.
> So, pirating is morally wrong, this is a fact.
> I pirate all the same, and I couldn't care less. I wouldn't if certain circumstances were met, but ATM they are still non-existent.
> ...


And this is precisely how it should be.  Thank you, sir.


----------



## JuStYn.Leandro (Jan 13, 2013)

I got my 5 minutes of extra thinking in here, and what I'm seeing is that people are looking for incentive to pirate like "hey, you're poor, so if you can't buy, you are allowed to pirate" or "hey, your country sucks so you can copy my game".
Nope, that CAN'T happen.


----------



## gameandmatch (Jan 13, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Te
> Lol i didn't mean that only that games that lead to a hack are selling... I said that consumers will buy consoles that are easy to hack. They wont buy a console that cant be hacked... At least the majority of them. And this is a fact that developers and companies should count in their plans.


 
With that logic, the 3ds should be doing terrible right now.


----------



## Issac (Jan 13, 2013)

Skyb said:


> Just a small quote of *my work on PC (GTA IV) Rockstar stole my works without thanks me,* one dev from them contact me in private to say to me sorry about that...
> so continue to talk man, i release this for free without asking any donation because i like it to work on it and help... stolen work is different than sharing work (put name on a work that is not your) yes i call that piracy
> 
> So now continue to defend that companies who stole work or take free work from other and just made the own stuff to sell it just after... i has *a personal project that was stole by a big company*, because i believe them i reveal everythings about it, 6month after the games was released* with all my story/gameplay idea and co... it was supposed to be free to play...* but no... let make it worst by releasing the game with a expensive price with work from other, nice mind


 
OOoooooooooooh, I see... so Grand theft auto 4 was a personal project you made, and rockstar stole and sold... alright, fair enough.


----------



## Skyb (Jan 13, 2013)

Issac said:


> OOoooooooooooh, I see... so Grand theft auto 4 was a personal project you made, and rockstar stole and sold... alright, fair enough.


 
Ok you don't understand... i was talking about working on the 3D/Physic engine (do the job that they should do it) that PC Game user can be able to play correctly the game, i re-write all the algorithm shader that was not supposed to be me to do that but i did this to help PC users... so why people will pay a game that is not even finish, that you can't even play, with many bugs, problem, etc... and stop with your sarcasm please.

The personal project was not GTA IV but another game that have nothing to do with this game and it was on the company that i was working for.


----------



## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 13, 2013)

JuStYn.Leandro said:


> Man, a while ago I've made a long post discussing this.. so let's try to make a long story short.
> What's morally/ethically wrong doesn't necessarily need to make you feel bad, and vice-versa.
> So, pirating is morally wrong, this is a fact.
> I pirate all the same, and I couldn't care less. I wouldn't if certain circumstances were met, but ATM they are still non-existent.
> ...


 
I couldn't agree more. But there is some anti-piracy nazis that cannot read something like this "i know piracy is wrong, i do because i want to play and don't have money to pay" without start a war and point fingers.

that's why i asked if those people want us to cry while play, like they must be doing all these years, because they pirate too.

funny fact: we had a radio station on the public university called "Radio USP" that used to play MSX games every day at midnight. the count from 5 to zero and we recorded the signal, an then play on our computers.

So i pirate games since 86, with 5 years with my older brother and with that age i don't even had the concept of regret, how can i find it wrong now with 31 ?


----------



## Issac (Jan 13, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> I couldn't agree more. But there is some anti-piracy nazis that cannot read something like this *"i know piracy is wrong, i do because i want to play and don't have money to pay"* without start a war and point fingers.
> 
> So i pirate games since 86, with 5 years with my older brother and with that age i don't even had the concept of regret, how can i find it wrong now with 31 ?


 
That's exactly what most (if not all) of those pointing fingers WANT people to say. It is
"Piracy is not wrong, I do because I want to play games (and big companies deserve it)" that they think are wrong. What you said was a perfect example of a good reply 

But you don't think it is wrong at all? (in your last sentence).


----------



## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> I couldn't agree more. But there is some anti-piracy nazis that cannot read something like this "i know piracy is wrong, i do because i want to play and don't have money to pay" without start a war and point fingers.
> 
> that's why i asked if those people want us to cry while play, like they must be doing all these years, because they pirate too.
> 
> ...


Except that's not what any of the pirates in here have said...  You've got guys like jimskeet or whatever acting like pirates are on some righteous quest to liberate games from the corrupt devs/publishers, all the while, claiming that video games are a necessity...  If you would have posted this days ago this thread would likely be dead by now 

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I personally have never said people should not pirate.  I've merely pointed out that it's childish to pretend pirating isn't immoral.  I'm sure many, if not all, of the "anti-piracy" people posting in this thread (and many of the pirates) would say the same thing.  But of course, there's that handful of dense, entitled kids who've spent their gaming life in denial of right and wrong.  Morals really aren't as subjective as these tools make them out to be.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 13, 2013)

of course i do, but i can't buy all games that i want, so here's an example:

I want to buy sonic generations, the new castlevania for 3ds and pokemon x or y, but i have another thinks to pay and will choose only one of them to buy. I will go for pokemon because i will play it for a lot more time than the other 2.
But when 3DS gets hacked, i will dl the other 2 and play.

i know it is wrong, but there's a lot of wrong things on this, but i don't care for companies, i just like games.


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## Blaze163 (Jan 13, 2013)

After learning of the state of modern music via the song 'Stupid ho' by Nikki Minaj, I'd like to add to my list of reasonabe uses for piracy the idea that it's ok to pirate absolutely anything, as well as break any other law, rule, moral or ethical code, law of physics or flat out rend reality apart if it prevents Nikki Minaj from releasing any new material.

Also, 'Dizznik' sounds like what Mickey Mouse would call his dong.


----------



## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 13, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Except that's not what any of the pirates in here have said... You've got guys like jimskeet or whatever acting like pirates are on some righteous quest to liberate games from the corrupt devs/publishers, all the while, claiming that video games are a necessity... If you would have posted this days ago this thread would likely be dead by now
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else here, but I personally have never said people should not pirate. I've merely pointed out that it's childish to pretend pirating isn't immoral. I'm sure many, if not all, of the "anti-piracy" people posting in this thread (and many of the pirates) would say the same thing. But of course, there's that handful of dense, entitled kids who've spent their gaming life in denial of right and wrong. Morals really aren't as subjective as these tools make them out to be.


 
The real fact is that neither of the sides is completely right even because we don't understand the whole thing. 
A fact: The use of a pirate copy is immoral, ok.
Another fact: I don't know how thing are in the rest of the world, but in Brazil, they sell pirates copies of everything on the streets, no one will find it immoral here.






 See, this is also a fact. Now, how can people from different places with different cultures can agree with something so complicated as the game industry ?
That's why i said that "i don't like companies, i like video games". Not because i'm on a crusade against them or something, in fact, i cannot want them to go bankrupt because i want them to keep releasing games. 
Another relevant thing: I don't like much online gaming, so if i had to choose, i will still keep pirating singleplayer games. Some people will choose online play.


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## ReBirFh (Jan 13, 2013)

I sincerely don't think it's wrong or at least I can't imagine it affecting negatively my moral. It just seems to be wrong because a certain group of business man decided to demonize it.

Everyone pirates, there isn't a single person on this world that doesn't pirate in some form or another, I could give countless of examples where people pirate but don't see as a wrong thing because there wasn't someone to point the finger at them.

Public Libraries are a form of piracy and internet sharing is just an evolution of the same concept, it might take time for some people to accept that but it will eventualy happen.

If you're so adamant against piracy, I recommend you to stop browsing any websites as you don't know if the origins of what you're reading was taken from someone without their consent and you wouldn't want to stain your moral.

And referencing a few pages back, yeah, if I could photograph a Lamborghinni on the streets and them have a identical copy of it materialize out of thin air on my garage I would totaly do it.

When people like something or there is an undeniably everlasting quality to its craft them they will support it in a way or another even if the possibility of piracy is easier.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 13, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> The real fact is that neither of the sides is completely right even because we don't understand the whole thing.
> A fact: The use of a pirate copy is immoral, ok.
> Another fact: I don't know how thing are in the rest of the world, but in Brazil, they sell pirates copies of everything on the streets, no one will find it immoral here.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on being one of the few honest people in this discussion.


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## Skyb (Jan 13, 2013)

Ok so what some people said, it's that you should accept to be hurt but not them ?
Read this and learn http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Ch...-Have-Our-Permission-Run-Promotion-41190.html
this is my last contribution because i'm tired about some of Gbatemp users think that every music, movie, games etc... compagnies is right with doing corrupt, more control and cut your liberty
now i understand why Apple have the possibility to f... the world with some sectarian words  http://www.panarabiaenquirer.com/wo...tarian-dimension-to-beiruts-ongoing-conflict/
i mean that if you take every words that came from the company, you don't think by yourself, you think with the idea that the company tell you is bad or not... live your life seriously, enjoy your life and
keep your liberty next to you... 

Bye and thanks


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## Rydian (Jan 13, 2013)

Skyb said:


> this is my last contribution because i'm tired about some of Gbatemp users think that every music, movie, games etc... compagnies is right with doing corrupt, more control and cut your liberty


How in the world are these guys "cutting our liberty"?

Or are you just spouting off random buzzwords in an attempt to sound serious?


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## PyroSpark (Jan 13, 2013)




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## porkiewpyne (Jan 14, 2013)

TehSkull said:


> Own DVD copy of X, want Bluray quality version.


I kinda have to disagree with you there. If you get the DVD copy, you get the DVD quality. It's like saying you are entitled to get a DVD of the movie you went to watch in the cinema, if you get what I am saying


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## Veho (Jan 14, 2013)

Entertainment is a basic human need. Okay. Fine. But apparently it is _essential_ that the entertainment be brand new, high budget titles _at the moment they come out_, available to you _at all times_; it can't be the movies or music available on the TV or radio, or at the library, on loan, or cheaper older titles or freeware, oh no, that will not do! It is a basic human need, nay, _bare necessity_ that the content be brand new, on the latest console, yours forever, and if someone can't afford that, it is perfectly okay and completely justified to pirate it instead of resorting to the tons and tons and _tons_ of other material available dirt cheap or completely free. What is this world coming to when the most vital human needs such as the latest blockbuster titles are considered a "luxury"?  


Or maybe that whole justification is bullshit and people pirate because they really really don't want to pay and that's the long and the short of it.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 14, 2013)

Veho said:


> Entertainment is a basic human need. Okay. Fine. But apparently it is _essential_ that the entertainment be brand new, high budget titles _at the moment they come out_, available to you _at all times_; it can't be the movies or music available on the TV or radio, or at the library, on loan, or cheaper older titles or freeware, oh no, that will not do! It is a basic human need, nay, _bare necessity_ that the content be brand new, on the latest console, yours forever, and if someone can't afford that, it is perfectly okay and completely justified to pirate it instead of resorting to the tons and tons and _tons_ of other material available dirt cheap or completely free. What is this world coming to when the most vital human needs such as the latest blockbuster titles are considered a "luxury"?
> 
> 
> Or maybe that whole justification is bullshit and people pirate because they really really don't want to pay and that's the long and the short of it.


 
I don't believe that such thing as "less wrong" exist. when you play a nes rom you're recurring to piracy as much as playing and xbox pirate game.


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## Veho (Jan 14, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> I don't believe that such thing as "less wrong" exist. when you play a nes rom you're recurring to piracy as much as playing and xbox pirate game.


Who said anything about NES ROMs?


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## xist (Jan 14, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> I don't believe that such thing as "less wrong" exist. when you play a nes rom you're recurring to piracy as much as playing and xbox pirate game.


 
Do you believe the material/financial cost to Nintendo is the same/less/greater for pirating a NES ROM versus a Wii ISO (or potentially 3DS or Wii U)?


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## jimskeet2002 (Jan 14, 2013)

Back again... Let me tell you another thing that is going on here in Greece.
Almost any video club here in Greece (shops that rent movies per day) rent video games also. Which means that anyone can rent any game he wants for 2euro per 3 days and play any fcking game he wants... And guess what this is LEGAL. Isn't this piracy? Since company doesn't get money for every guy that rents the game and plays it for 2 euro? You can easily finish most of the games out there in 6 days which ends up being 4 euro and this is what almost anyone that doesn't pirate do here in Greece... Oh and not to mention that some games don't need disc in DVD rom to play so practically you rent it for 2e and then have it till you uninstall it  LEGALLY!!!!!!


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## xist (Jan 14, 2013)

jimskeet2002 said:


> Almost any video club here in Greece (shops that rent movies per day) rent video games also.


 
And how much do you think legal license to rent/rental copy costs? In the end the Games companies make their money back from someone....the rental cost pays the renting shop, the shop pays the publishers.


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## Its_just_Lou (Jan 14, 2013)

xist said:


> And how much do you think legal license to rent/rental copy costs? In the end the Games companies make their money back from someone....the rental cost pays the renting shop, the shop pays the publishers.


 
Indeed. I honestly can't predict WHAT effect(s) all of this mass piracy will have on the industry in the future, but I _can _tell you that I wont stop hoarding SD chips any time soon.


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## Clydefrosch (Jan 14, 2013)

Its_just_Lou said:


> Indeed. I honestly can't predict WHAT effect(s) all of this mass piracy will have on the industry in the future, but I _can _tell you that I wont stop hoarding SD chips any time soon.


 
its going to have mass effects!




jimskeet2002 said:


> Back again... Let me tell you another thing that is going on here in Greece.
> Almost any video club here in Greece (shops that rent movies per day) rent video games also. Which means that anyone can rent any game he wants for 2euro per 3 days and play any fcking game he wants... And guess what this is LEGAL. Isn't this piracy? Since company doesn't get money for every guy that rents the game and plays it for 2 euro? You can easily finish most of the games out there in 6 days which ends up being 4 euro and this is what almost anyone that doesn't pirate do here in Greece... Oh and not to mention that some games don't need disc in DVD rom to play so practically you rent it for 2e and then have it till you uninstall it  LEGALLY!!!!!!


 
rental shops rent out rental copies that are strictly not for sale.
they get these copies from the publishers (they being the owner of the individual rental stores, its usually huge companies). they pay some kind of fee to be allowed to rent out the copies of the game. and that fee is not just a few bucks, its a lot of bucks.

the same is true for dvd/blue ray rentals. its not just that you can go and buy a 10$ movie, then rent it for 1$/day to 10 people and have your money back. that would be illegal, im sure it says so randomly before every movie and probably on the disk and somewhere on the inlay and cover too.

as for the playing without disk, thats rarely the case anymore, is it? one way or another, they either require you to use a no cd crack, which again falls into illegal territory, or they cut out online multiplayer or whatever else. as recently shown, they do whatever they can to bind games to cds and both of those to indiviudal machines as much as they can.

finally, with the rise of digital distribution, those shops will go out of business in the near future anyway. its already started for dvd rental stores.


your rental prices are ridiculously low btw. in germany, you pay 2-3 € per day for a game/dvd


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## Its_just_Lou (Jan 14, 2013)

Clydefrosch said:


> its going to have mass effects!


 
ZING!
(ba-dumm-TSCHHHH!)

Jokes aside, I should probably play that game at some point....because most are console, I dont really play the newer stuff, and am rather back-logged:  Bioshock, Drake's, Castlevania(s), Resident Evil(s), Minecraft, Skyrim, Bastion, etc..etc..


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 14, 2013)

Veho said:


> Who said anything about NES ROMs?


I did.


xist said:


> Do you believe the material/financial cost to Nintendo is the same/less/greater for pirating a NES ROM versus a Wii ISO (or potentially 3DS or Wii U)?


no, i don't. But what does it change ? in the copyright laws says anything about development costs ?


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## Veho (Jan 14, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> I did.


Why?


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## xist (Jan 14, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> no, i don't. But what does it change ? in the copyright laws says anything about development costs ?


 
It's not development costs it's revenue loss. If you're pirating something that's no longer viable and therefore difficult to obtain normally you're prolonging something's cultural relevance.....if you're pirating games that are new and easily available and will have a financial impact upon publishers costs then you're avoiding paying for something you want.

There is a difference and an argument for archival sites like mumble-orama to exist to perpetuate out of circulation games.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 14, 2013)

Veho said:


> Why?


Because you said that people always want to be entertained by the newest games. It's not that i was contradicting your argument. I was just saying that for me pirating is always using something without paying for it. doesn't matter how old the game (in this case) is.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 14, 2013)

xist said:


> It's not development costs it's revenue loss. If you're pirating something that's no longer viable and therefore difficult to obtain normally you're prolonging something's cultural relevance.....if you're pirating games that are new and easily available and will have a financial impact upon publishers costs then you're avoiding paying for something you want.
> 
> There is a difference and an argument for archival sites like mumble-orama to exist to perpetuate out of circulation games.


Square asked people that are developing a a free 3D remake of Chronno trigger because they still want to sell this game, like the DS version of it.


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## xist (Jan 14, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> Square asked people that are developing a a free 3D remake of Chronno trigger because they still want to sell this game, like the DS version of it.


 
You're ignoring the distinction between games (like Chrono Trigger) which have recent releases, and games like Captive on the Amiga/ST. It'd be criminal if Captive was forgotten, but without it's perpetuation via "piracy" it'd soon be a relic.


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## Rydian (Jan 14, 2013)

Its_just_Lou said:


> Indeed. I honestly can't predict WHAT effect(s) all of this mass piracy will have on the industry in the future


Well, we have an example.  Music.

People have been pirating/copying music for 40+ years now.  Anything from home taping of radio broadcasts once the first magnetic home tape recorders came out, to Napster in all it's glory, music piracy has been around for ages and the music industry is still going strong.

This example fits in with the whole "piracy doesn't actually cause any financial loss" thing.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 14, 2013)

xist said:


> You're ignoring the distinction between games (like Chrono Trigger) which have recent releases, and games like Captive on the Amiga/ST. It'd be criminal if Captive was forgotten, but without it's perpetuation via "piracy" it'd soon be a relic.


 
What about excite bike ? the game was released in 1984 and nintendo released again, and kid icarus as 3d classics. But the game is the same.

correct if i'm wrong, but it doesn't take 100 years to a copyrighted protection to expire (ex: classic compositions) ?


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## xist (Jan 14, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> What about excite bike ? the game was released in 1984 and nintendo released again, and kid icarus as 3d classics. But the game is the same.
> 
> correct if i'm wrong, but it doesn't take 100 years to a copyrighted protection to expire (ex: classic compositions) ?


 
It depends upon the prevailing conditions - before Excitebike was made available on the 3DS it was a dead game...obviously that changed, BUT there was no way of knowing that it would and it's fair to have thought it'd never be republished. I think in terms of piracy you really have to consider the actual cost of what you're pirating.

As for copyright - it varies around the world. For instance US copyright is stricter than UK copyright.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 14, 2013)

I like what you said and i kinda fell the same. I usually download the games on DS/ GBA/ PSP that i want to play and when i finish playing i delete then. But when it comes to arcade games, nes games, 16 bit games, i save them all and always get back to the large romsets i have i find something to play again. They're classics after all!

but in fact, the companies still have rights on these games, and we're pirating them.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 14, 2013)

xist said:


> It's not development costs it's revenue loss. If you're pirating something that's no longer viable and therefore difficult to obtain normally you're prolonging something's cultural relevance.....if you're pirating games that are new and easily available and will have a financial impact upon publishers costs then you're avoiding paying for something you want.
> 
> There is a difference and an argument for archival sites like mumble-orama to exist to perpetuate out of circulation games.


Copyright infringement is copyright infringement regardless of _potential_ for revenue loss or _fear_ of data being lost forever.


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## xist (Jan 14, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> Copyright infringement is copyright infringement regardless of _potential_ for revenue loss or _fear_ of data being lost forever.


 
I don't disagree, but i'm trying to remain in the spirit of the topic - it's legally clear, but the argument becomes cloudy when you consider the potential for cultural loss implicit in discarding older games from outdated formats or limited runs. Is it right that in the words of the law only a (relatively) small part of video games culture remains available?


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## TheCasketMan (Jan 14, 2013)

Pirating is ok when you download games for systems that are out of production and whose games are not being sold in stores right now, such as Atari, NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, etc.  But now with Nintendo's virtual console, i dont know if it is ok anymore, but some developers sont give a [email protected] if their retro games are downloaded or modded, like the creator of Earthbound/Mother, which approved the fan translation of Mother 3, and encouraged people outside of Japan to download the rom and enjoy it.  He even allowed fans to create their own Mother 4 fan game.


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## JoostinOnline (Jan 14, 2013)

TheCasketMan said:


> Pirating is ok when you download games for systems that are out of production and whose games are not being sold in stores right now, such as Atari, NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, etc. But now with Nintendo's virtual console, i dont know if it is ok anymore, but some developers sont give a [email protected] if their retro games are downloaded or modded, like the creator of Earthbound/Mother, which approved the fan translation of Mother 3, and encouraged people outside of Japan to download the rom and enjoy it. He even allowed fans to create their own Mother 4 fan game.


All those games are still for sale, just not new.  I think it's supposed to be 70 years before it's actually legal to download the games.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 14, 2013)

xist said:


> I don't disagree, but i'm trying to remain in the spirit of the topic - it's legally clear, but the argument becomes cloudy when you consider the potential for cultural loss implicit in discarding older games from outdated formats or limited runs. Is it right that in the words of the law only a (relatively) small part of video games culture remains available?


It is not right.  However, they belong in museums long before they belong as part of 1000 file romsets tucked away in pirate harddrives.  If you think the majority of pirates download or copy games in an effort to preserve history...well...I hope you don't.


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## Rydian (Jan 14, 2013)

xist said:


> but the argument becomes cloudy when you consider the potential for cultural loss implicit in discarding older games from outdated formats or limited runs. Is it right that in the words of the law only a (relatively) small part of video games culture remains available?


This!



wrettcaughn said:


> It is not right.  However, they belong in museums long before they belong as part of 1000 file romsets tucked away in pirate harddrives.  If you think the majority of pirates download or copy games in an effort to preserve history...well...I hope you don't.


Yeah, see, the problem is that the organizations wishing to archive would be committing copyright infringement as well.

http://gbatemp.net/threads/the-library-of-congress-says-copyright-laws-suck.262963/


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## TheCasketMan (Jan 14, 2013)

For modern games, it should be up to the developer to decide if the piracy of their game be legal or illegal.  The creator of Minecraft doesn't care if his game is pirated, so Minecraft piracy should be legal.  Still, nowadays, the publishers and not the developers control the games, and most of them are greedy corporate people, who will always oppose piracy, and will never let the developer which are treated like underpaid slaves, say a word of their own opinion.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 14, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> It is not right. However, they belong in museums long before they belong as part of 1000 file romsets tucked away in pirate harddrives. If you think the majority of pirates download or copy games in an effort to preserve history...well...I hope you don't.


 
My story at least, i grew up when arcades had better graphics than home consoles, so i build an arcade controller and have a 6k roms on mame. but i'm not being pushed by any noble cause.


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 14, 2013)

Rydian said:


> This!
> 
> Yeah, see, the problem is that the organizations wishing to archive would be committing copyright infringement as well.
> 
> http://gbatemp.net/threads/the-library-of-congress-says-copyright-laws-suck.262963/


 
So then the goal should be working towards changing law rather than circumventing it.  Yes, people have tried and failed.  No, it is not a worthless exercise.


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## Its_just_Lou (Jan 14, 2013)

You guys work this out amongst yourselves.   I'm off to grab a few more SDs, blank discs, and a case of beer...let me know how it all turns out, eh?


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## dehry (Jan 14, 2013)

Copyright for any work is the life of the creator + 50-70 years depending on what country you are from. Things like games and music can be anywhere from 50-95 years after release. A major player in the copyright battle is Disney. Steamboat Willie ,the first appearance of Mickey Mouse, was two years away from going into the public domain and Disney got it extended. It doesn't matter if in your country it is a shorter period because virtually all nations have agreements to keep things in copyright if it is in another one. As matter of a fact, 2018 will be the next year anything even enters the public domain.

It's going to be your grandchildren or great grandchildren that will be the first to play anything legally, if they ever come out of the Microsoft Holodeck. 

Used games are not the same as piracy because of the first-sale doctrine, which allows you to transfer legally purchased *physical* goods to another individual. It doesn't make the game company any money, but you also aren't playing the game anymore. If you want to play it again, you have to go out and buy another copy that was legally paid for at some point or buy new. With piracy, no money leaves anyone's hands and it's only recorded on some torrent site as another download.


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## Rydian (Jan 14, 2013)

dehry said:


> Used games are not the same as piracy because of the first-sale doctrine, which allows you to transfer legally purchased *physical* goods to another individual. It doesn't make the game company any money, but you also aren't playing the game anymore. If you want to play it again, you have to go out and buy another copy that was legally paid for at some point or buy new. With piracy, no money leaves anyone's hands and it's only recorded on some torrent site as another download.


I don't believe that used games are the same as piracy, I bring up that comparison to show people that the idea "if you don't pay the company it's piracy" is flawed.


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## Veho (Jan 14, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> Because you said that people always want to be entertained by the newest games.


I said that the newest games are the only thing that can't be obtained cheap or entirely free via legal means. So the "I can't afford entertainment" argument boils down to "I can't afford the newest titles" and suddenly that justification no longer holds water.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 15, 2013)

Sure thing, but there's some old games that are rare expensive, such as "little Samson" for NES. One copy of that game can cost US$300,00 on ebay. Only collectors will want to pay that much for an old NES game.


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## TeeR (Jan 15, 2013)

When Nintendo releases Kirby's Dream Collection in every country but yours.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 15, 2013)

Another reason to pirate, i just found out the name of a game that i played 20 years ago, in a cartridge, but i can't find any images of cartridges on google, just famicon disks. this game is rare, and i'm going to play again when i get home.
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Fuuun_Shourinken


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 15, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> Another reason to pirate, i just found out the name of a game that i played 20 years ago, in a cartridge, but i can't find any images of cartridges on google, just famicon disks. this game is rare, and i'm going to play again when i get home.
> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Fuuun_Shourinken


That is not a "reason to pirate".  The only possible reason to pirate is that you don't want to acquire an item by legitimate means.  You would like to play the game for nostalgic reasons, but you do not deem it worth the current financial burden that comes with it.  Being rare is not a reason to pirate it.  Not wanting to put forth the effort required to purchase it is your reason for pirating it, regardless of how extreme the financial burden might be.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 15, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> That is not a "reason to pirate". The only possible reason to pirate is that you don't want to acquire an item by legitimate means. You would like to play the game for nostalgic reasons, but you do not deem it worth the current financial burden that comes with it. Being rare is not a reason to pirate it. Not wanting to put forth the effort required to purchase it is your reason for pirating it, regardless of how extreme the financial burden might be.


It's a reason, not an excuse.
for committing a crime, one does not need means, motive and opportunity ?


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 15, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> It's a reason, not an excuse.
> for committing a crime, one does not need means, motive and opportunity ?


All I'm saying is that say your reason to pirate is because the game is rare, when in actuality the reason you are pirating it is because you do not want to invest in everything required to play it legitimately (purchasing hardware, finding/purchasing/shipping the game, etc...).  The game is indeed rare, but it is not impossible to play it legitimately.  You would just prefer not to.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 15, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> All I'm saying is that say your reason to pirate is because the game is rare, when in actuality the reason you are pirating it is because you do not want to invest in everything required to play it legitimately (purchasing hardware, finding/purchasing/shipping the game, etc...). The game is indeed rare, but it is not impossible to play it legitimately. You would just prefer not to.


True, only collectors will prefer to purchase this kind of game, and for a lot of cases, the game is in japanese and it could not be found anywhere outside japan.


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## Devin (Jan 15, 2013)

Quoting myself from the other piracy thread.



> I used to be clean man. Save up pennies in a little coin jar for months to get my games. And then it started by getting a little taste of the Wii piracy scene. I thought like anyone else would think "Alright man, one hit of a pirated game and I'm done". But it got up to 2 hits, and then 3 hits, and then 42 hits. It didn't stop at the Wii, the DS, Xbox 360, PS2, PS3, PC, and other systems were to follow man. Now I'm on street begging for change, so I can pay for my bandwidth to pirate more games. The worst part is, when you get one hit. The next time you want a hit, you have to pirate more man. To get that same "feel" again.
> 
> One hit will ruin your life.
> 
> ...


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 15, 2013)

Devin said:


> Quoting myself from the other piracy thread.


The poisoned youth...


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## koimayeul (Jan 15, 2013)

To add to the discussion the latest replies are forking to a new direction i would like to highlight, the notion of *abandonware*.

For this particular NES game, who in their right mind would spend hundreds beside collectors moguls to play it? Honest!

When a software is not produced anymore and not sold anymore through retail or digital store, it is "somehow" considered abandonware, a form of piracy for some and a chance to get your hands on otherwise unavailable content to most of us.
Usually a simple call from the copyright holders to abandonware sites have their IP removed from their service, exemple with Lucasarts. Or when said software are back on the market they are removed from abandonware, exemple with GOG games.

Wiki : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware


Also, another fork from piracy and laws : Fan translations and undub.

Usually you find in legal terms of use it is forbidden to reverse engineer (in clear, to "hack") a product and mess about their underlying codes. Which is what fan translations teams are hard at work doing to provide us with their welcomed patches! Thanks, by the way! I would have never played Lunar Eclipse if it wasn't for you folks.. It actually introduced me to the Fatal Frames on Wii and i puchased the second from retail, full price.

As for undub, it is usually patches to keep the original voice acting on a localised copy of a game.

On PC gaming you find a lot, and i mean A LOT of subtitles patches and languages packs, how and why is it so rare and a problem with console gaming?


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Jan 15, 2013)

koimayeul said:


> To add to the discussion the latest replies are forking to a new direction i would like to highlight, the notion of *abandonware*.
> 
> For this particular NES game, who in their right mind would spend hundreds beside collectors moguls to play it? Honest!
> 
> ...


 
The home of underdogs, i learned the term from that site. I used to download a lot of old pc games there. Without them, i would never had played killing time or legacy of kain.


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## Rydian (Jan 15, 2013)

koimayeul said:


> Also, another fork from piracy and laws : Fan translations and undub.
> 
> Usually you find in legal terms of use it is forbidden to reverse engineer (in clear, to "hack") a product and mess about their underlying codes.


And thankfully that's a load of crap since reverse-engineering is legal (which is why you never see translators/hackers even hit with a C&D).



koimayeul said:


> On PC gaming you find a lot, and i mean A LOT of subtitles patches and languages packs, how and why is it so rare and a problem with console gaming?


It's much, much easier to hack shit on a PC than on a console.  On a PC you have 50+ years of tools designed for the job, and full access to everything you need (admin access, kernel access, even run shit in a VM to peek at values), whereas on many consoles you don't.  Even getting unsigned code to run at all on some consoles is a bitch, let alone getting admin/kernel access while running a retail game (and maintaining access to other output sources to write logs and shit).

Hell, _the Wii doesn't even have an operating system_, there is no way to run a second program alongside a retail game, so people often need to use Dolphin to develop any sort of game-specific hacks or replacements.


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## koimayeul (Jan 15, 2013)

Rydian said:


> And thankfully that's a load of crap since reverse-engineering is legal (which is why you never see translators/hackers even hit with a C&D).
> 
> It's much, much easier to hack shit on a PC than on a console. On a PC you have 50+ years of tools designed for the job, and full access to everything you need (admin access, kernel access, even run shit in a VM to peek at values), whereas on many consoles you don't. Even getting unsigned code to run at all on some consoles is a bitch, let alone getting admin/kernel access while running a retail game (and maintaining access to other output sources to write logs and shit).
> 
> Hell, _the Wii doesn't even have an operating system_, there is no way to run a second program alongside a retail game, so people often need to use Dolphin to develop any sort of game-specific hacks or replacements.


Hmm i'm pretty sure i read about reverse engineering law as i was taking a dump yesterday with my Tenchu Wii manual on my lap. Lol, but yes as you say thankfully there is not a big history of trouble for fan translations works. I actually never heard about a cease & desist but quite the opposite, used fan translation work toward a professional localisation for an Aksis or Atlus game these last years if i recall. Surely tools to be developed are the key to work on hacking stuff, compile and recompile etc.. It just feels so underground (in terms of illegal hacking) compared to PC. Just to have a modifed Wii / PSP or a flashcard for your legal backups feels wrong to some people.. :S


----------



## Devin (Jan 15, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> The poisoned youth...


 
*bows* At your service.


----------



## TeeR (Jan 21, 2013)

Or when the TV Show Season 2 Boxset happens to be a version which doesn't have all the bonus features that it should have.
Case in point, for the SpongeBob DVD I have, Viacom decided to remove all the bonus features except for one 5 minute "Around the World" featurette (yet still leave in "Bonus Feature*s*" on the menu) for an entire boxset for one of their most cash oozing beloved shows. Guess those commentaries didn't meet evil Viacom's standards...
I just wonder if that left in graphic means that the files are still lurking on the disc somewhere. I wonder how I could do that...
The UK boxset for Ren & Stimpy is even worse (all removed bonus features including the re-banned episode and apparently "controversial" commentaries, editing already edited episodes to removing an entire song sequence, and all while the DVD says the bonus features are there and all this censorship even though it was a Nickelodeon cartoon and the DVD is rated 12.)


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 21, 2013)

TeeR said:


> Or when the TV Show Season 2 Boxset happens to be a version which doesn't have all the bonus features that it should have.
> Case in point, for the SpongeBob DVD I have, Viacom decided to remove all the bonus features except for one 5 minute "Around the World" featurette (yet still leave in "Bonus Feature*s*" on the menu) for an entire boxset for one of their most cash oozing beloved shows. Guess those commentaries didn't meet evil Viacom's standards...
> I just wonder if that left in graphic means that the files are still lurking on the disc somewhere. I wonder how I could do that...
> The UK boxset for Ren & Stimpy is even worse (all removed bonus features including the re-banned episode and apparently "controversial" commentaries, editing already edited episodes to removing an entire song sequence, and all while the DVD says the bonus features are there and all this censorship even though it was a Nickelodeon cartoon and the DVD is rated 12.)


You're aware it's possible to import dvds from other regions, right?


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## Ray Lewis (Jan 21, 2013)

Allowed backup.  If you buy game, you have right to a copy.  When companies charge $60+ a game, prevent making/using backups, won't replace games scratched by disc drives or at least one courtesy replacement...I am for unlocking system and using backups.  Especially off hard drives.  I understand other side but believe no solid data exists to support notion piracy costs companies significantly.   Demos are a step in right direction.  Tried NBA 2k 13 (or was it 12?) and could not change camera or options, one quarter only.  I was not impressed...played on 360.  Playable but could not see enough to justify $60 purchase given no options.  Graphics looked Wii-ish.  For being more powerful than 360...I was disappointed.  Anyway, my two cents.


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## TeeR (Jan 22, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> You're aware it's possible to import dvds from other regions, right?


Yes, but when I _already own a version of the DVD _it still counts.


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## Arm73 (Jan 22, 2013)

I don't know whether I posted already here or not ( too many damn piracy treads on these forums  ) , but I wanted to add :
Piracy is OK if you know how to do it !
I do it because I can !
If you don't know about torrents, cracks, usenet , rips, repacks and so on, and are prone to mess up your PC ( or catch viruses all the time by running those tricky files.txt.exe )  to the point that you need to reformat your computer several times a year, better stay away from it 

Otherwise, like I said before, I can't ignore piracy.........because why would I pay 2 bucks for an hot dog if I can get one for free just around the corner  !


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## wrettcaughn (Jan 22, 2013)

TeeR said:


> Yes, but when I _already own a version of the DVD _it still counts.


it does?  So I can purchase the standard Lord of the Rings boxset and then be fully justified in pirating the extended cut, 12 hour, bluray set since I "already own a version of it"?  Justifications really aren't maleable, regardless of the hammer you try and shape them with.  But pirates will certainly try.  At least be honest with yourself and say, "I want this thing, but I don't want to pay for it, so I think I'll just take it, and then blame the people who made it for not making it to my liking."


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## Arm73 (Jan 22, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> it does? So I can purchase the standard Lord of the Rings boxset and then be fully justified in pirating the extended cut, 12 hour, bluray set since I "already own a version of it"? Justifications really aren't maleable, regardless of the hammer you try and shape them with. But pirates will certainly try. At least be honest with yourself and say, "I want this thing, but I don't want to pay for it, so I think I'll just take it, and then blame the people who made it for not making it to my liking."


 
Listen man, I like to download free stuff ok ? Who wouldn't ?
Like I said, piracy is easy , fast ( these days at least ) and convenient ( you can get stuff in your own home without lifting your ass from the chair ) .
Should I feel bad because it's immoral, or damages the industry ? I surely do, but I felt worse  for shelling out thousands of dollars for video games over the years, most of which were used as well ( talk about supporting the industry , gamestop can burn to hell ).

Like I said, I believe I still support the video games  industry aplenty by buying new consoles ( sometimes several units of the same system , like 4 between DS phat, lite and XL ) and gadgets like dozens of controllers, GH guitars, drums, steering wheels , light guns or joysticks.....
Let alone other collateral stuff like new TVs every once in a while, headphone sets, adapters or even batteries !

So the industry made a shitload of money on me !
Should I feel bad because I download stuff ?
Hell no !
Make it impossible or very difficult to do it ( to the point that it becomes inconvenient ) then *maybe* I'll start buying games again........but then again there is the used market still around....


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## TeeR (Jan 22, 2013)

wrettcaughn said:


> it does?  So I can purchase the standard Lord of the Rings boxset and then be fully justified in pirating the extended cut, 12 hour, bluray set since I "already own a version of it"?  Justifications really aren't maleable, regardless of the hammer you try and shape them with.  But pirates will certainly try.  At least be honest with yourself and say, "I want this thing, but I don't want to pay for it, so I think I'll just take it, and then blame the people who made it for not making it to my liking."


I see your point, but this what I'm talking about is the exact same specific DVD set.


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## Panzer Tacticer (Jan 23, 2013)

Piracy threads, yummy.

Piracy is like a lot of things, it depends on the person and the item in question and the source.

I have friends in gaming, actual publishers of games. I never download their games, I don't steal from my friends.

Now on the other hand, I don't know EA for instance, but I know those assholes beat out of one of my publisher buddies several 10s of thousands of bucks in effective cost damage all because you gamers are too fucking stupid to discern the difference between a game called Battlefield, and a game called Battlefield Academy. Well that was the inference given, that you would be too stupid to tell them apart. Hence they sued my buddies company over a name of a game.

Fuck you EA. That action made all your games subject to my no longer liking you. I have no beef stealing your shit (assuming I even want your shit to begin with).

Nintendo is another example of when a company will whore out their name to every dumb ass piece of schlock all because all too often juuuuuust enough sales will result before enough people realize the game was yet again shovelware garbage. I buy the VERY few Nintendo DS games I KNOW to be solid replayable designs. Everything else I am ok with downloading. And if it takes me a year, several years, never, to get around to checking out the damn title and see if it was ever worth it... I have deleted oodles of Nintendo DS titles since 2006. Some are just utter crap. Some are merely worthless. Some are simply not worth the cash.

But you need to understand. I am not religious, I know there is no god, I am far too educated to believe in that drivel, there is no bad guy super nasty person in a horrible place either. The only deterrent to me indulging the power of the internet, is barriers in the real world that matter. And when you consider the nice way governments and corporations will lie and cheat and steal from society, heck I feel zero guilt just not giving a fuck about some laws. It being 'law' doesn't make it magical to me (regardless of how you word some of them eh). So you can get a bug up yer ass over specific words if it floats your boat I suppose, but some of us simply don't even care.

Since 2006 when I bought my first Nintendo DS lite (I have the DSi XL these days) I have bought about 20 games. I still play them. Most of them have unlimited replay potential. You can play Panzer Tactics for instance till hell freezes over, it isn't a play once one only ending type game.

Since 2006 I likely have at least sampled every tactical type game ever made be it wargame, or combat oriented RPG. I have seen scores of arcade like designs. Some of them are really good I admit. But man the crap I have witnessed. The garbage that never should have been allowed to wast shelf space.

The question would have been better phrased, when is it acceptable to not give a shit about the rules.


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## Rydian (Jan 23, 2013)

Panzer Tacticer said:


> ~


Hey, do me a favor?  Go around your room and person and list the companies that have made everything you have or use.

When you're done, I'll pull up a list of every single one of them (or at least as many until I get tired) having sued another company over a trademarked name.

'Cause watching you make excuses for not _running around naked_ will be fun.


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## BORTZ (Jan 23, 2013)

Piracy is never ok lol


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## DinohScene (Jan 23, 2013)

This is STILL alive!?

Wow Temp, just wow!


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## Nurio (Jan 24, 2013)

Panzer Tacticer said:


> Piracy threads, yummy.
> 
> *snip*


 
Wow, so much hate...
Are you seriously blaming gamers for EA suing whatever company it was you're upset over? Really? This is something we did?
You also seem to suggest Nintendo is responsible for every single Nintendo DS game, which is a ridiculous claim. I hope this isn't the case...

And you're giving all the atheists a bad name by implying that everyone who isn't an atheist is uneducated. Why did you even bring up your religion (or lack thereof)?

You actually made some valid points, but it's covered in so much hate and you present it in such an unreasonable way that you just come off as an entitled jerk.
If you had just said something like "I pirate, but I pay for the games I find worth my money", you'd more seem like a reasonable chap who's respectfully stating his viewpoint in this discussion.


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## TeeR (Jan 28, 2013)

What about when a game is too expensive or unobtainable? I'm thinking of getting Conker's Bad Fur Day (even though it costs £40 at least) and since you can't emulate it properly, I might be getting a rerelease of Shantae when it comes out (especially if it's on DSiWare) but the GameBoy Player disc is around £30 if not more expensive and that's more I paid for than the GameCube plus GameBoy Player itself. As soon as I find a way to hack a GameCube...


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## Maxternal (Jan 28, 2013)

Still going





Nothing outlasts this conversation.

Seriously, I've had to recharge several batteries since this started ...


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## ferret7463 (Feb 4, 2013)

here is a little article to fan the flames  ....http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/02/gdc-nintendo-to-show-efforts-to-expand-range-of-developers

I present this to those who say that Piracy scares away 3rd party devs. In my opinion they use piracy as an excuse for a crappy game's failure by saying ," Man this is the greatest game since Pac Man, but it did not sell good because those no good Pirates... Damn them ... Damn them all to hell."
To clear things up for my point here, The 3DS is NOT hacked and yet they are still having 3rd parties staying away.


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## tbgtbg (Feb 9, 2013)

When it pirating okay? When you have an eyepatch, pegleg, and or hook for a hand, a really sweet boat with a skull flag, and a crew of cutthroats to do all the work for you.


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## koimayeul (Feb 10, 2013)

tbgtbg said:


> When it pirating okay? When you have an eyepatch, pegleg, and or hook for a hand, a really sweet boat with a skull flag, and a crew of cutthroats to do all the work for you.


Not forget the parrot on shoulder & the hat!


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## trumpet-205 (Feb 10, 2013)

You know, we can talk about piracy all day long but let's face it, piracy will still be with us. You can limit it but that's about as much as you can do.

This is like terrorist. I remembered one guy from TV (Mayday - Episode Attack Over Baghdad) saying that "you can only limit terrorist to commercially acceptable level".


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## Bladexdsl (Feb 10, 2013)

ALL THE TIME


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## Ubuntuの刀 (Feb 10, 2013)

I would pirate games(HUGE PIRATE OVER HERE D.

But if you think about it, would the game be better had I not pirated it?
For example, I pirated Pokemon Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum. After about 3-5 months of playing those games, I simply got rid of them. They weren't fun after 5 months, and since I didn't buy it, all I got out of it was fun for those 5 months of me playing it and thats pretty much it. Then when Black and White came out and I actually BOUGHT it, they all of a sudden had another flavor to the game. I've been playing on my Pokemon White game for about over a year and I have yet to be bored of the game(or stop playing it altogether).

My thoughts? If you think the game you are about to pirate is bad, then go ahead and pirate it. However, if your reasoning for pirating the game is for testing purposes, then that to me is a load of bullshit as you are gonna play the game until the end and toss it afterward as your thoughts after "testing" it would be, "I've played this game for 2 months, why would I go and buy it? It's not even that good.".

Those are my thoughts on pirating. Anyone concur? Feel free as I don't even know what to think with the rising in the availability of pirating after typing this.


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## pyromaniac123 (Feb 10, 2013)

I only pirate sugar, tobacco and spices.


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## MelodieOctavia (Feb 14, 2013)

This. This is when it's okay.


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## Blood Fetish (Feb 14, 2013)

TwinRetro said:


> This. This is when it's okay.


Why do you say that?


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## trumpet-205 (Feb 14, 2013)

Blood Fetish said:


> Why do you say that?


He is referring to stupid DRM such as HDCP. HDCP will require people to buy new equipment (new GPU and/or monitor) to watch HD content.

Does HDCP works? No, there are HDCP stripper that makes it useless.

Which brings up a good point about DVD and Bluray. These medias often includes advertisement (which can be as long as 15 minutes), useless warning, and useless DRM that wastes your time; one reason why people backup and/or pirate movies.


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## ShadowSoldier (Feb 14, 2013)

Blood Fetish said:


> Why do you say that?


 
Because he doesn't have an HD computer, he's unable to buy it. Even if he has a device that can do it and that he can hook up to his tv, it doesn't matter, he's not allowed to buy it on his computer. Which is dumb, it'd be nice to have it like Steam. I mean, my computer can't handle Skyrim, but it's sweet that I can buy it when it's on sale and have it for when I do have a computer that can run it.


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## Blood Fetish (Feb 14, 2013)

It sounds like both of you are saying that producers should accommodate the demands of every person, and if they don't then pirating is justified. Is that what you are saying?


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## trumpet-205 (Feb 14, 2013)

Blood Fetish said:


> It sounds like both of you are saying that producers should accommodate the demands of every person, and if they don't then pirating is justified. Is that what you are saying?


Did we say pirate is justified? No.

What we are saying is why people pirate.


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## Blood Fetish (Feb 14, 2013)

The topic is, "When is pirating ok," so I guess I was confused.


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## MelodieOctavia (Feb 14, 2013)

Blood Fetish said:


> It sounds like both of you are saying that producers should accommodate the demands of every person, and if they don't then pirating is justified. Is that what you are saying?


 
I was being facetious. Piracy is never okay, but I can justify it, at least for myself, when I'm required to buy new hardware to watch a movie, when I spent nearly $1500 on my setup 1 and a half years ago. My GPU which is still being sold for $350-400 brand spanking new is not HDCP compliant. Neither is my TV that it's hooked up to, that I would be watching it on. This is a widely adopted DRM scheme which I think is absolutely bananas. It's fairly new, and that combined with it being a hardware-based DRM management scheme, it's a complete and total failure. Only GPUs/Media boxes/TVs/Monitors built in the last few years are compliant. That's what...5-8% of the world population at the most that can be blessed with the opportunity to buy iTunes movies? give me a break. 

Piracy will always exist as long as it's both easier AND cheaper to get the same quality material illegitimately.


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## Guild McCommunist (Feb 14, 2013)

This fucking thread?


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## Rydian (Feb 14, 2013)

Blood Fetish said:


> It sounds like both of you are saying that producers should accommodate the demands of every person, and if they don't then pirating is justified. Is that what you are saying?


Might want to read up on HDCP.  It's additional copyright protection support built into the hardware/software.  It does not exist naturally.

So it's not that companies need to go out of their way to support non-HDCP devices, it's that *they are currently going out of their way and putting forth extra effort in order to make it so that less people can purchase their product*, whereas they could simply NOT do it, saving time, money, and getting more sales.

HDCP is an anti-consumer feature, and consumers do not like anti-consumer features and will often pirate in retaliation.  Spore, anybody?  Hell, retaliation to anti-consumer features and DRM in general can almost be seen as a secondary Streisand Effect.


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## Ubuntuの刀 (Feb 16, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Might want to read up on HDCP. It's additional copyright protection support built into the hardware/software. It does not exist naturally.
> 
> So it's not that companies need to go out of their way to support non-HDCP devices, it's that *they are currently going out of their way and putting forth extra effort in order to make it so that less people can purchase their product*, whereas they could simply NOT do it, saving time, money, and getting more sales.
> 
> HDCP is an anti-consumer feature, and consumers do not like anti-consumer features and will often pirate in retaliation. Spore, anybody? Hell, retaliation to anti-consumer features and DRM in general can almost be seen as a secondary Streisand Effect.


 
So you are saying it's like the anti-pirating thing they put on ROM's so that people with the pirated game can't play it? Im not sure I'm understanding


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## Rydian (Feb 16, 2013)

maxlwin536 said:


> So you are saying it's like the anti-pirating thing they put on ROM's so that people with the pirated game can't play it? Im not sure I'm understanding


Yes, it's a form of anti-piracy.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 17, 2013)

TwinRetro said:


> This. This is when it's okay.


 

Or Google "bypass HDCP windows 7"...er, never mind.  Whoever determined it necessary tp create HDCP needs a kick to the crotch.


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## narutofan777 (Feb 17, 2013)

im not gonna buy a used snes console and buy some oldass snes games. you can play them on the internet, ffs.


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## Gahars (Feb 17, 2013)

narutofan777 said:


> im not gonna buy a used snes console and buy some oldass snes games. you can play them on the internet, ffs.


 
Alright guys, discussion's over. Pack it up, this guy's got it all figured out.


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## Nurio (Feb 19, 2013)

Gahars said:


> Alright guys, discussion's over. Pack it up, this guy's got it all figured out.


My reaction to your post:


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## Veho (Feb 28, 2013)

http://www.ibtimes.com/hyman-strach...et-sends-bootlegged-dvds-troops-abroad-693550 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/27/nyregion/at-92-movie-bootlegger-is-soldiers-hero.html


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## Metoroid0 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rydian said:


> How in the world are these guys "cutting our liberty"?
> 
> Or are you just spouting off random buzzwords in an attempt to sound serious?​


​It's a feeling of "cutting our liberty" which humans tend to take seriously and personal.​Basic human need is freedom..and just every single living thing on earth has that need.​Now, why are someone feeling like that, is a different thing..​​i'm guessing that we can all relate to that feeling... ?​ 


ShadowSoldier said:


> Because he doesn't have an HD computer, he's unable to buy it. Even if he has a device that can do it and that he can hook up to his tv, it doesn't matter, he's not allowed to buy it on his computer. Which is dumb, it'd be nice to have it like Steam. I mean, my computer can't handle Skyrim, but it's sweet that I can buy it when it's on sale and have it for when I do have a computer that can run it.


​Aaah, i hate that.. for example, i could play Tomb Raider anniwersary and Tomb Raider Legend on my old PC (it was excelent graphics) and i was soo excited, because i loved the games and next TR (like a sequel) was going to be TR: underworld, direct sequel of TR: Legend...aaah i was excited to install it and continue the story, but..i had to buy a new computer in order to play the game -.-​


narutofan777 said:


> im not gonna buy a used snes console and buy some oldass snes games. you can play them on the internet, ffs.


Actually, i would love to buy and old used SNES console and games  i think there's certain charm to it, don't you think? ​​​

 


Veho said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



​​​Wow  a master pirate!​​​​


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## xwatchmanx (Apr 16, 2013)

Dude, combine your freaking posts... double posting is against the rules. I imagine triple posting is even more so.


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## pokefloote (Apr 16, 2013)

If steam ever disappears, I wouldnt feel bad about pirating the games i 'bought licenses for'.


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## Metoroid0 (Apr 16, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Dude, combine your freaking posts... double posting is against the rules. I imagine triple posting is even more so.


Thanks for reminder, but i think its not that big a deal... but, why do you feel like that when someone is double posting?​(Just small advice if i may..it would be wise to PM people for double-posting instead of posting it on thread, and send them rules of the forum and stuff  ) ​I'm sure you can understand me, because i'm a human, and humans make mistakes ​​By the way, i was wondering, how to merge two posts into one? (i also don't want to double post  )​ 


pokefloote said:


> If steam ever disappears, I wouldnt feel bad about pirating the games i 'bought licenses for'.


What actually is a "STEAM" by the way  i mean, i know what it is, but what actually is?​(when someone say steam, i think of Half-Life haha) ​​​​​OMG i double posted again  (aparently, i'm not all myself today..sorry )​​


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## stanleyopar2000 (Apr 16, 2013)

whenever you feel like it is.


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## porkiewpyne (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Thanks for reminder, but i think its not that big a deal... but, why do you feel like that when someone is double posting?​(Just small advice if i may..it would be wise to PM people for double-posting instead of posting it on thread, and send them rules of the forum and stuff  ) ​I'm sure you can understand me, because i'm a human, and humans make mistakes ​​By the way, i was wondering, how to merge two posts into one? (i also don't want to double post  )​


And then proceed to make the exact same mistake. Again.

In all seriousness, you can't "merge" posts per se. All you need to do is either
A) Think about what you want to post and compile all you want to say before hitting the 'Post reply' button
B) Think about the additional thing you would have put in the second post, press the edit button and write whatever it was in there. You've used the edit button before. You can use it again. Don't worry. Usage is unlimited and free of charge.

2) Because it's basic courtesy. It takes up more space than required. Pretty much like spamming. Which is pretty annoying. And well, you ARE supposed to have read the rules so yea..... 

3) Could you un-centre your text? It gets a wee bit annoying especially when your post consists of only a "?" which by the way is yet another thing which can be frustrating. Though we don't have that 10 character limit here, it would be nice if the post has..... well.... more.


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## xist (Apr 16, 2013)

porkiewpyne said:


> 3) Could you un-centre your text? It gets a wee bit annoying especially when your post consists of only a "?" which by the way is yet another thing which can be frustrating. Though we don't have that 10 character limit here, it would be nice if the post has..... well.... more.


 
QFT!

The only way it could be worse would be if you picked some awful font, italicised it and coloured it pink.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Apr 16, 2013)

porkiewpyne said:


> And then proceed to make the exact same mistake. Again.
> 
> In all seriousness, you can't "merge" posts per se. All you need to do is either
> A) Think about what you want to post and compile all you want to say before hitting the 'Post reply' button
> ...


Quoting myself "OMG i double posted again  (aparently, i'm not all myself today..sorry )"

And also, this is off topic is it not? 
I didn't read the rules, but i'm learning them on the go, and will read when i had time. TKS





xist said:


> QFT!
> 
> The only way it could be worse would be if you picked some awful font, italicised it and coloured it pink.


In other words, "do what i want, not what you want"? 
I like it that way. and also, there's this word "please" "if you could" or whatewer...


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## Gahars (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> It's a​feeling​of "cutting our liberty" which humans tend to take seriously and personal.​​


​ 
Law don't real, only feels.


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## Metoroid0 (Apr 16, 2013)

Gahars said:


> ​
> Law don't real, only feels.


Could you please rephrase what you wrote, i don't understand it very well. sorry (english is not my mother language) tks


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## stanleyopar2000 (Apr 16, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> Buying used is paying someone else for another person's work. Not a single dime of that transaction goes to the maker of the work.


 
so you think every developer deserves a dime?...there are a few unnamed ones that i think don't..


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## the_randomizer (Apr 16, 2013)

stanleyopar2000 said:


> so you think every developer deserves a dime?...there are a few unnamed ones that i think don't..


 
I prefer to pirate games that don't give developers money but only to second-hand sellers, like users who sell old used games on eBay or Amazon


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## gifi4 (Apr 16, 2013)

jakeyjake said:


> Buying used is paying someone else for another person's work. Not a single dime of that transaction goes to the maker of the work.


You're paying someone money to get a game. That game came from the developers. In order for you to buy a game second-hand, the game would have to have been purchased originally. Therefore, your discounted purchase is still *technically* contributing to the developer.

Edit: Any chance we could get the above user warned or perhaps even suspended?


----------



## Depravo (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> ​3rd double post?! wtf ..what's next penta post? )


Next is a warning for causing unnecessary work for the moderating staff.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 16, 2013)

gifi4 said:


> You're paying someone money to get a game. That game came from the developers. In order for you to buy a game second-hand, the game would have to have been purchased originally. Therefore, your discounted purchase is still *technically* contributing to the developer.
> 
> Edit: Any chance we could get the above user warned or perhaps even suspended?


 
Yes, the game had to have been purchased in the first place, but a second-hand game in no way gives more money to the developers in question, especially if said game is no longer being manufactured. There are a finite amount of used games in circulation.


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## Gahars (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Could you please rephrase what you wrote, i don't understand it very well. sorry (english is not my mother language) tks


 
It's a reference to the SJW (social justice warrior) mantra of "Science don't real, only feels!" when people present evidence that their claims are wrong. Basically, they're saying that the truth of the matter is irrelevent - all that matters is their feelings on a subject.

Someone "feeling" like their liberty is being taken away because companies are protecting their products doesn't mean anything. Their feelings don't somehow warp the fabric of reality to change the facts of the matter.

Also, for the love of God and all that is holy, please stop with the special snowflake formatting. It's really obnoxious.


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## Metoroid0 (Apr 16, 2013)

Depravo said:


> Next is a warning for causing unnecessary work for the moderating staff.


Sorry guys but i don't feel like myself today. please go easy on me ​don't tell me you newer double posted... but if you haven't than you don't understand me.​​Anyway, sorry ​ 



Gahars said:


> It's a reference to the SJW (social justice warrior) mantra of "Science don't real, only feels!" when people present evidence that their claims are wrong. Basically, they're saying that the truth of the matter is irrelevent - all that matters is their feelings on a subject.
> 
> Someone "feeling" like their liberty is being taken away because companies are protecting their products doesn't mean anything. Their feelings don't somehow warp the fabric of reality to change the facts of the matter.
> 
> Also, for the love of God and all that is holy, please stop with the special snowflake formatting. It's really obnoxious.


 
I newer said that "all that matters is their feelings on a subject" i just wanted to point out that people have feelings and why are they feeling like that.
Rydian replyed: _"How in the world are these guys "cutting our liberty"?_
_Or are you just spouting off random buzzwords in an attempt to sound serious?"_


I just wanted to say that even if there are no real "cutting our liberty" sometimes, there is human factor, like their feeling of "cutting liberty"

PS. " snowflake formatting" ??


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## xist (Apr 16, 2013)

If a game is available for purchase the it doesn't matter whether you buy it or not...the developer already got paid, your purchase puts money into the Publishers pockets. (not Indie games which generally don't have Publishers). The developer doesn't care about you buying their game second hand because they're often not the publisher who are distributing that game. Developers feel the lack of purchase at a later date when their publishers decide to ditch them because the games aren't selling.

Buy games to allow developers to keep making the games you like and help shape the future. If you don't then publishers will have no choice but to take even fewer risks and opt for casual games, cheap clones and poor sequels.


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## pokefloote (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> What actually is a "STEAM" by the way  i mean, i know what it is, but what actually is?
> (when someone say steam, i think of Half-Life haha)


Steam is like a big store for digital pc games. Also used as an easy way to display the games you own, and you can run them all from one place. It's quite convenient.

Thing is, some pc games are only available on steam (even if they have a box in a store, it has a code that you must activate through steam to use it) so if Steam/Valve ever shut down the service, those games are useless even though we bought them.

Not that I can see them ever going down, Steam is excellent.


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## Gahars (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Sorry guys but i don't feel like myself today. please go easy on me
> don't tell me you newer double posted... but if you haven't than you don't understand me.
> 
> Anyway, sorry


 
*Gahars' Foolproof Guide To Not Double Posting:*
1) Post once
2) Don't post again until someone else posts or...


> If you simply cannot wait to post again use the 'Edit' function.


Like so.


I know, it sounds crazy, but trust me. It works like magic.


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## Depravo (Apr 16, 2013)

Gahars said:


> *Gahars' Foolproof Guide To Not Double Posting:*
> 1) Post once
> 2) Don't post again until someone else posts
> 
> I know, it sounds crazy, but trust me. It works like magic.


And if you simply cannot wait to post again use the 'Edit' function.


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## Rydian (Apr 16, 2013)

What I tend to do is, if I hit a post I want to reply to... wait.  Keep reading other posts.  Once I know the ones I want to reply to, I type up the replies, then copy-paste them into a single post and post.

Assuming nobody else posts while I'm doing that... which happens at times.


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## porkiewpyne (Apr 16, 2013)

To expand on what Rydian said, I usually just quote the post I want to reply to and leave it there while reading the other posts. The best thing is that the 'new' GBATemp saves what is in your reply so you can view another page without losing the quote etc. Then after I have quoted all I wanted to quote, I move on to reply. Simple really.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 16, 2013)

pokefloote said:


> Steam is like a big store for digital pc games. Also used as an easy way to display the games you own, and you can run them all from one place. It's quite convenient.
> 
> Thing is, some pc games are only available on steam (even if they have a box in a store, it has a code that you must activate through steam to use it) so if Steam/Valve ever shut down the service, those games are useless even though we bought them.
> 
> Not that I can see them ever going down, Steam is excellent.


 
If steam ever goes down, there are ways to ensure you can play your games, but, uh, those methods aren't exactly legal to discuss here.


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## gifi4 (Apr 16, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Yes, the game had to have been purchased in the first place, but a second-hand game in no way gives more money to the developers in question, especially if said game is no longer being manufactured. There are a finite amount of used games in circulation.


Look at it like this: Guy A walks into to a shop and buys a game. He gets bored of it in several weeks/months (Basically an undefined period of time).
Guy B notices that Guy A is trying to sell the copy and takes it off his hands.
The developer gets payment for 1 copy of the game. Although two people have played it/consumed it. It was only 1 copy. Therefore, the developer doesn't deserve a second payment.
​


Metoroid0 said:


> don't tell me you newer double posted... but if you haven't than you don't understand me.​Anyway, sorry ​


Ofcourse many of us have double posted. We then get corrected and asked politely to not double post next time, and we respectfully follow the request.​​


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## Metoroid0 (Apr 16, 2013)

pokefloote said:


> Steam is like a big store for digital pc games. Also used as an easy way to display the games you own, and you can run them all from one place. It's quite convenient.
> 
> Thing is, some pc games are only available on steam (even if they have a box in a store, it has a code that you must activate through steam to use it) so if Steam/Valve ever shut down the service, those games are useless even though we bought them.
> 
> Not that I can see them ever going down, Steam is excellent.


Wait, but how can you run a 10GB game from internet directly or other games you bought? or do you like download them like eShop on 3DS​and than play them? but than, what's the point of steam? is it that you can download your steam games wherever you are?​​​​PS. Bye guys, i have to go. and sorry if i said something wrong ​


porkiewpyne said:


> Signature: *IF YOU VIOLATE ANY OF THESE RULES AND IT'S OBVIOUS THAT YOU CREATED AN ACCOUNT JUST FOR THE RELEASE OF THIS GAME, YOU WILL BE SHUNNED BY THIS COMMUNITY, BRANDED AS A "POKéTARD," AND BANNED FROM EVER POSTING HERE AGAIN.*


Why so rough  telling the rules is enough imo


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## Rydian (Apr 16, 2013)

Protip: If you're getting in trouble by posting too much, then posting _more_ is not the solution.


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## Metoroid0 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Protip: If you're getting in trouble by posting too much, then posting _more_ is not the solution.


I know... i must go out of the house, i'm not feeling well.. bye for real...

And TKS Rydian


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## Yepi69 (Apr 16, 2013)

Because games cost too much in my country, really there's stores who are still selling Mario Kart DS games for 50$ (thats right, 50 fucking $).

I bought an EZ-Flash IV to play gba roms mostly because every cartridge I find on my country goes from 30$ to 40$, no box or any other shit, just the plain cartridge in which IDEK if its fake or not.

I think the only reason people pirate games its because they either:

a) Cost too much
b) Cuz their money needs to go on other things besides games
c) They have money and they are cheap fucks to buy a game


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## porkiewpyne (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Why so rough  telling the rules is enough imo


That one is a special one which we use during a certain special event. There's a very good reason why we said what we said. I don't mind people being new and all. Just put in effort instead of sitting and asking to be spoonfed and being self-entitled etc.


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## emigre (Apr 16, 2013)

Is it wrong I opened this thread expecting it to be a 35 page long thread discussing if extreme poverty is a valid reason for piracy, influenced by relatively recent cases with Somalian pirates?


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## porkiewpyne (Apr 16, 2013)

emigre said:


> Is it wrong I opened this thread expecting it to be a 35 page long thread discussing if extreme poverty is a valid reason for piracy, influenced by relatively recent cases with Somalian pirates?


Pretty sure that was the discussion until the last 20 posts. Well except the "influenced by Somalian pirates" part


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## pokefloote (Apr 16, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Wait, but how can you run a 10GB game from internet directly or other games you bought? or do you like download them like eShop on 3DS​and than play them? but than, what's the point of steam? is it that you can download your steam games wherever you are?​​​​​


​It's exactly that, like the eShop. It's just easier than going to the store to find some obscure game, and less expensive for distributing the games (they dont need to make millions of discs, boxes, manuals, etc)


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## xwatchmanx (Apr 16, 2013)

Why do I get the feeling that this thread is going to get an EXTREMELY healthy dose of features on Shit GBAtemp Says?


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## FAST6191 (Apr 16, 2013)

emigre said:


> Is it wrong I opened this thread expecting it to be a 35 page long thread discussing if extreme poverty is a valid reason for piracy, influenced by relatively recent cases with Somalian pirates?



It demonstrates you are suffering from a break from reality and a fundamental inability to consider the thought patterns of others you are engaging with. Normally I would see about having you sectioned but as you appear to be heading down the path of politics, finance and related fields it is probably an asset to you should you be able to think like that.


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## Prophet (Apr 16, 2013)

The only time pirating (tantamount to theft) can conceivably be morally permissible, is in cases in which the theft is committed in order to preserve something of greater moral value; in turn doing more good than harm. Under this conception one could conclude that stealing a loaf of bread (an immoral act under normal circumstances) would be permissible if an individual was starving (life being of a greater intrinsic moral value than respecting property rights) and this act of theft would not do the bread maker/owner a greater disservice than the good it would provide the starving individual.

Could this ever be the case when stealing video games? I can't imagine any practical case in which it would be.
A case could be made for pirating books however; if one is in grave need of the information contained.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 16, 2013)

Prophet said:


> The only time pirating (tantamount to theft) can conceivably be morally permissible, is in cases in which the theft is committed in order to preserve something of greater moral value; in turn doing more good than harm. Under this conception one could conclude that stealing a loaf of bread (an immoral act under normal circumstances) would be permissible if an individual was starving (life being of a greater intrinsic moral value than respecting property rights) and this act of theft would not do the bread maker/owner a greater disservice than the good it would provide the starving individual.
> 
> Could this ever be the case when stealing video games? I can't imagine any practical case in which it would be.
> A case could be made for pirating books however; if one is in grave need of the information contained.



Normally I would have taken the bait and gone in for picking things apart but I have things to do at present. However before I depart I shall merely say games have been used to teach life and death skills in medicine, engineering, resource management and the list goes on in times past.


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## Rydian (Apr 16, 2013)

Prophet said:


> pirating (tantamount to theft)


http://gbatemp.net/threads/piracy-common-myths.344858/


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## Prophet (Apr 16, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Normally I would have taken the bait and gone in for picking things apart but I have things to do at present. However before I depart I shall merely say games have been used to teach life and death skills in medicine, engineering, resource management and the list goes on in times past.


I'm glad you didn't waste your time on such a weak critique. Essentially you're just arguing semantics. I'm talking about video games as they are commonly considered -- objects designed for our enjoyment/entertainment. Now if you want to slip training programs and educational software under the umbrella of “video games,” I can make that concession without compromising the integrity of my argument in any way. Do you see how that works? 

Now if you’ll excuse me, I too have some super extraordinarily important grown-up I’m-a-big-deal serious business to attend to. Good day sir!



Rydian said:


> http://gbatemp.net/threads/piracy-common-myths.344858/


That’s a much better point. Nonetheless, the definition of theft you are linking strikes me as a tad narrow. For instance if I were to steal a loaf of bread from you on Tuesday and then replace it with one I baked on Wednesday, without you ever noticing -- would I have stolen from you? Hard to say. I’ve certainly infringed upon your property rights and taken something I clearly had no normal right to. Or what if a baker had a magic oven that produced bread indefinitely; if the oven belongs to him, do I have the right to help myself to the surplus bread? Still seems like I would be infringing upon his property rights. Now you may want to just dismiss the concept of “property rights” in general and I would be sympathetic to that cause (I lean heavily towards socialist). However be clear, that would come with the consequence of it being equally permissible for me to “pirate” a game or burglarize your home. Once you get rid of the idea that a person can have privileged rights upon property, the gloves are off.

Copyright is just an extension of property rights (this is mine and I set the terms of if and how you are allowed to use it) and I can’t see any way around the impermissibility of agreeing to abide by copyrights (upon purchasing copyright protected goods) and then disregarding the copyright after you have procured the object. It can be done without consequence in most cases, but let’s not pretend it isn't wrong. No one is born with some inherent right to entertainment mediums.


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## Rydian (Apr 16, 2013)

Prophet said:


> That’s a much better point. Nonetheless, the definition of theft you are linking strikes me as a tad narrow. For instance if I were to steal a loaf of bread from you on Tuesday and then replace it with one I baked on Wednesday, without you ever noticing -- would I have stolen from you?


Yes.  The two are separate acts.  The first is theft, the second is a gift.  Gifting does not mean that the act of theft never happened.  The two loaves of bread are two separate objects.

If I never noticed, you still stole, but I wouldn't press charges ('cause I wouldn't even know).

If you're trying to equate this to downloading files online... the original files being read for the download are never modified or removed.



Prophet said:


> Or what if a baker had a magic oven that produced bread indefinitely; if the oven belongs to him, do I have the right to help myself to the surplus bread?


By the law no.  By morals, depends on the situation and who you ask.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 16, 2013)

Commonly defined...."enjoyment/entertainment"... there is a very serious issue defining what exactly makes a game and is the subject of intense debate. To that end attempting to casually dismiss things gets to be tricky and "enjoyment/entertainment" is both rather narrow and open to a wide range of interpretations to say nothing of the potential minefield of "what is a "grave" need?".

I suppose in some cases it has gained the moniker serious games but the line is very blurred and things like http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ionship-manager-becomes-football-reality.html have happened. I agree it is a sport and does not matter but on the flip side the sums of money involved are frequently considerably more than my lazy arse will earn this year.

Similarly though it may not be to the taste of everybody there are those that enjoy simulation type games and that surely means some of the stock market (or other investment markets) games straddle just for fun and useful in real life.

I am probably supposed to say America's Army at this stage but I do not know enough about that game to back arguments at a proper level here.

Pushing it a bit some of the racing games and other driving games are rather potent simulations of real world places these days. A track day fatality/serious injury is not an unknown thing and a wrecked car is.

http://fold.it/portal/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Human-based_computation_games ? Now most of those are actually free but I will still have it in there.


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## Rydian (Apr 16, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Pushing it a bit some of the racing games and other driving games are rather potent simulations of real world places these days.


Euro Truck Simulator 2 seems to be one of these.


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## Prophet (Apr 17, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yes. The two are separate acts. The first is theft, the second is a gift. Gifting does not mean that the act of theft never happened. The two loaves of bread are two separate objects.
> 
> If I never noticed, you still stole, but I wouldn't press charges ('cause I wouldn't even know).
> 
> If you're trying to equate this to downloading files online... the original files being read for the download are never modified or removed.


 
No I don't mean to say the two are equal, only to point out that an act of theft may occur without costing the victim anything or incurring any tangible loss. Which simply underlines the error of the definition you linked: "Piracy is not theft because it does not cause any direct damage or loss to the other party." But as you just agreed, in the case of the bread swap (where there was no direct damage or loss), an act of theft has still occurred; as you stated, one has "still stole."


Rydian said:


> By the law no. By morals, depends on the situation and who you ask.


 
That’s absurd. If the owner of the magic oven doesn't have a legal claim to the product of _his_ oven_; _then whomever owns a factory, wouldn't have a legal claim to the products produced by said factory. Why would anyone own a factory under such conditions?

Of course factories are often contracted to produce goods for other companies. Nonetheless, under simple circumstances, in the absence of any such arrangements; whomsoever owns the means of production, owns the product produced. Simple facet of property ownership. How else would dog breeders have the right to sell the offspring of their dogs?



FAST6191 said:


> Commonly defined...."enjoyment/entertainment"... there is a very serious issue defining what exactly makes a game and is the subject of intense debate. To that end attempting to casually dismiss things gets to be tricky and "enjoyment/entertainment" is both rather narrow and open to a wide range of interpretations to say nothing of the potential minefield of "what is a "grave" need?”


 
I refuse to reiterate what is meant by grave need -- my first post clearly describes the circumstances in which I am proposing piracy would be permissible and in turn outlines the conditions necessary for a “need” to pass this permissibility test.

Definitions are tricky in general. After all who should get to decide the limits and precise meaning of any term? So to avoid the quagmire of “meaning,” let’s just focus on a specific example. Crysis 2 was heavily pirated and makes for a good example of what I have in mind as “video games” designed specifically for “enjoyment/entertainment.” Would you like to provide a practical example in which one _needs_ to pirate Crysis 2? If you can, congratulations, you will have successfully addressed an insignificant aside I made in saying, “I can't imagine any practical case in which it would be.”

I know the majority of us are pirates, myself included. But in order to ease our consciences we shouldn't embrace the sophistry commonly found in “pro-pirate” arguments. Better to be admittedly amoral on a petty scale than to delude oneself with shoddy logic.


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## Rydian (Apr 17, 2013)

Prophet said:


> No I don't mean to say the two are equal, only to point out that an act of theft may occur without costing the victim anything or incurring any tangible loss. Which simply underlines the error of the definition you linked: "Piracy is not theft because it does not cause any direct damage or loss to the other party." But as you just agreed, in the case of the bread swap (where there was no direct damage or loss), an act of theft has still occurred; as you stated, one has "still stole."


There is a loss.  With your act of taking my loaf of bread, I have lost that loaf of bread.  You gave me another loaf of bread, but you still took MY loaf of bread.

The whole replacement thing only works if you count possessions as being equal and numerical, which is not how life works.  People value certain individual possessions more than others.  For example, I have this fuzzy blanket that was a gift from my first real girlfriend.  I almost never use it because it's way smaller than a normal blanket, but I keep it with me because it's special.  If somebody took that blanket, I'd want it back, even if they wanted to replace it with two.

The second act of giving does not erase the act of theft.  *Not getting caught does not mean you didn't do anything wrong*, we're not 12 or something.


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## Jan1tor (Apr 17, 2013)

I want a matter converter to be hacked! That way I could pirate a brand new car, free meals, clothes, just about anything. When they can do that, Then it will be ok to pirate!  Silly people. Silly me!


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## Thomas83Lin (Apr 17, 2013)

Second post nailed it, so why is there 700+ post


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## Prophet (Apr 17, 2013)

Rydian said:


> There is a loss. With your act of taking my loaf of bread, I have lost that loaf of bread. You gave me another loaf of bread, but you still took MY loaf of bread.
> 
> The whole replacement thing only works if you count possessions as being equal and numerical, which is not how life works. People value certain individual possessions more than others. For example, I have this fuzzy blanket that was a gift from my first real girlfriend. I almost never use it because it's way smaller than a normal blanket, but I keep it with me because it's special. If somebody took that blanket, I'd want it back, even if they wanted to replace it with two.
> 
> The second act of giving does not erase the act of theft. *Not getting caught does not mean you didn't do anything wrong*, we're not 12 or something.


 
So just to get this straight… you are willing to to broaden the definition of “loss” to include instances in which an object is taken and replaced with an identical object. You reason that due to some abstract sentimental attachment you had to the _original-object_, the _replacement-object _is not equivalent, even if it is indistinguishable. That’s a very nuanced view and it requires some justification for why the quirks of your emotional attachment should be considered when trying to measure if a tangible loss occurred.

But even in lieu of this nuanced understanding of “loss” you are endorsing, you still want to deny that copyright infringement is a loss in so far as a copyright holder upon infringement _loses _their exclusive right to produce and distribute an object.

Arbitrary and inconsistent sophistry, but you are entitled to your opinion.


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## whinis (Apr 17, 2013)

Prophet said:


> So just to get this straight… you are willing to to broaden the definition of “loss” to include instances in which an object is taken and replaced with an identical object. You reason that due to some abstract sentimental attachment you had to the _original-object_, the _replacement-object _is not equivalent, even if it is indistinguishable. That’s a very nuanced view and it requires some justification for why the quirks of your emotional attachment should be considered when trying to measure if a tangible loss occurred.
> 
> But even in lieu of this nuanced understanding of “loss” you are endorsing, you still want to deny that copyright infringement is a loss in so far as a copyright holder upon infringement _loses _their exclusive right to produce and distribute an object.
> 
> Arbitrary and inconsistent sophistry, but you are entitled to your opinion.


You are comparing an act of copying an item in which the original item is not changed with stealing an item from someone and replacing it and yet you don't see any problem with your logic ? Should I now also believe my body has been stolen when people take pictures of me ?


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## Rydian (Apr 17, 2013)

Prophet said:


> So just to get this straight… you are willing to to broaden the definition of “loss” to include instances in which an object is taken and replaced with an identical object. You reason that due to some abstract sentimental attachment you had to the _original-object_, the _replacement-object _is not equivalent, even if it is indistinguishable. That’s a very nuanced view and it requires some justification for why the quirks of your emotional attachment should be considered when trying to measure if a tangible loss occurred.


Seriously, 12 year old logic still?  Replacing something does not mean you never took it.

You could take a loaf of bread from my house, replace it with a different loaf of bread and a bag of 10,000 canadian dollars, and you would still be guilty of theft.



Prophet said:


> But even in lieu of this nuanced understanding of “loss” you are endorsing, you still want to deny that copyright infringement is a loss in so far as a copyright holder upon infringement _loses _their exclusive right to produce and distribute an object.


Rights to reproduce an object are not the same as the object itself.  Read the thread I linked more closely, and check some of the sources too.



Prophet said:


> Arbitrary and inconsistent sophistry, but you are entitled to your opinion.


Inconsistent how?  Tangible goods are clearly distinct from intangible rights, and the laws and regulations about the two differ.


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## TheCasketMan (Apr 17, 2013)

What ever happened with that new law with ISP like Roadrunner and Comcast?  I mean the one where they slow down your Internet if they find out you are downloading pirated media, and eventually sue you.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Apr 17, 2013)

After so many pages with so great point of view from you guys, i think i found an answer to satisfy all:

When piracy is ok ? never! do at your own risc.
Why is piracy bad ? so many games, so little time.


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## Rydian (Apr 17, 2013)

TheCasketMan said:


> What ever happened with that new law with ISP like Roadrunner and Comcast?  I mean the one where they slow down your Internet if they find out you are downloading pirated media, and eventually sue you.


Well they'd have to catch you first.  Very few people even get notices.


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## Prophet (Apr 17, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Seriously, 12 year old logic still?


 
It’s the wonky definition of theft that you are endorsing that’s leading to the weird logic here. I agree that the replacement example is an instance of theft. But for it to be theft as YOU define, it would require some loss or damage. If no loss or damage occurred and we still agree that it was a theft, then your definition is wrong which would open the door for an interpretation of copyright infringement as another possible form of non-loss/damage theft. My own point ended there.

However you thought it wise to press on and suggest that there is in fact a loss/damage that occurs in the replacement example. Citing a “special” sentimental value assigned to the original, which renders it irreplaceable even with an indistinguishable copy. Your folly here is in proposing “specialness” as a relevant thing when identifying loss. My response was simply, if you are willing to rest your argument on an intangible assigned value (“specialness”), then I can’t see how you can deny an argument which regards a copyright holder as incurring a loss of their exclusive right (intangible) to produce and distribute an object, when their copyright is infringed upon. This appears no more or less dependent upon an intangible concept, yet you reel against it. That’s strange – arbitrary and inconsistent even.

I’m essentially letting you pick your poison and entertaining the discrepancies in your position. I personally don’t think private property is grounded in any intrinsic logic or morality, which is precisely why so many discrepancies arise – the whole concept is unsound to begin with. I would argue that private property is just a strange and problematic social construct. I just enjoy watching folks who I presume normally cling to the comforts found in the illusion of private property, suddenly switch gears when they want to erect an argument to defend their tendency to pirate goods. I'm an adorable douche, in that way.


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## JoostinOnline (Apr 17, 2013)

Rydian said:


> You could take a loaf of bread from my house, replace it with a different loaf of bread and a bag of 10,000 canadian dollars, and you would still be guilty of theft.


That's because nothing from Canada is worth anything.


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## Rydian (Apr 17, 2013)

Prophet said:


> It’s the wonky definition of theft that you are endorsing that’s leading to the weird logic here. I agree that the replacement example is an instance of theft. But for it to be theft as YOU define, it would require some loss or damage. If no loss or damage occurred and we still agree that it was a theft, then your definition is wrong which would open the door for an interpretation of copyright infringement as another possible form of non-loss/damage theft. My own point ended there.


The problem is that you assume that replacing the bread you took from me with another loaf magically makes the first act go away.  It does not.



Prophet said:


> However you thought it wise to press on and suggest that there is in fact a loss/damage that occurs in the replacement example. Citing a “special” sentimental value assigned to the original, which renders it irreplaceable even with an indistinguishable copy.


That was just an example to point out that objects in real life are not part of some numerical order like a video game.  A swap of one object for another may be the same in a video game (where inventories are often just collections of quantifier numbers), but in real life it is not the same as leaving the original alone.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 17, 2013)

TheCasketMan said:


> What ever happened with that new law with ISP like Roadrunner and Comcast? I mean the one where they slow down your Internet if they find out you are downloading pirated media, and eventually sue you.


 
Why do you think nerds created usenet and VPNs?


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## FAST6191 (Apr 17, 2013)

Prophet said:


> I refuse to reiterate what is meant by grave need -- my first post clearly describes the circumstances in which I am proposing piracy would be permissible and in turn outlines the conditions necessary for a “need” to pass this permissibility test.
> 
> Definitions are tricky in general. After all who should get to decide the limits and precise meaning of any term? So to avoid the quagmire of “meaning,” let’s just focus on a specific example. Crysis 2 was heavily pirated and makes for a good example of what I have in mind as “video games” designed specifically for “enjoyment/entertainment.” Would you like to provide a practical example in which one _needs_ to pirate Crysis 2? If you can, congratulations, you will have successfully addressed an insignificant aside I made in saying, “I can't imagine any practical case in which it would be.”



Though I would argue simple enjoyment/entertainment are but a fraction what computer games can encompass I sense there is little to be gained going too much further there. Those "grave" circumstances are somewhat nebulous though- starving runs a wide range of concepts from prolonged malnutrition to just having not eaten for a few days despite the body being able to survive serious amounts of time without food. Grave need for the knowledge could vary as well as morality is not a clear cut thing. My insurance company holds there are worse things than death (I get paid more if I become a quadriplegic or seriously brain damaged for instance) and would effectively also assign a value to a life. Beyond that we have the one vs many debate- if I took out a pension fund tomorrow I would probably not kill anybody (free health care and all that) but I would still have a massive impact upon a lot of people with the net impact probably being greater than the impact of the life of a single person. As pension funds are investors at points would I be justified in pirating either a professional book (my ASM materials books cost several hundred dollars each and there about 20 odd of them, those are somewhat cheap in the realms of professional literature as well) or a scientific paper (subs to journals or journals themselves are not always cheap either) should I have to play advisor on an investment*. Beyond that professional indemnity insurance and professional requirements are in hundreds of fields, assuming we are pushing it more towards medic then where do probabilities, recovery times, percentage recovery, resulting impact (do I have to take immunosuppressants, insulin, get dialysis, appear for labs every day....), infection potential.... all of which are very much considered by those that play medic in the same line of thought that "will the patient/service user die" is considered factor in?

I am not so sure about the second one but the first crysis was actually used somewhat as a benchmarking/system test tool and in many instances there not for the game at all. Especially for the first and doubly so for far cry but it might argued such a game was also designed somewhat more as a demo of the tech (engine sales count for a lot for many companies and a real world proof of it being able to sustain a game is a great bit of marketing). Also I still hold that I enjoy my stock market game which definitely doubles as a test and training platform, though my entertainment is an option that is catered for by the devs, despite having no concerns in one beyond that of "I live in a society that assigns great value to financial markets" which applies to everybody else.

As for the loaf of bread stuff if I am the baker in this example and I can carry the logic of magic replica (your loaf of bread may not be up to my standards in real life after all) I am still left without the loaf of bread to sell or eat on the day which may impact my liquidity, granted I would hope my margins cover such a thing but that is somewhat besides the point. Given loans are made to cover a lack of such a thing, the lack of such a thing has impacted many a company at points in time and said loans form a huge part of the financial industry well....

*much like the loaf of bread stuff in the last paragraph I would hope divesting and margins would be enough but if we are allowed logical leaps....


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## Sop (Apr 17, 2013)

Never. Well, for some retro consoles I buy the game first den emulate it on my PC for that mint condition resell.


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## Chocolina (Apr 18, 2013)

i nvr look at like that i am now informed #YOLO


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## Gahars (Apr 18, 2013)

Chocolina said:


> i nvr look at like that i am now informed #YOLO


 
You Only Learn Once?


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## 1234turtles (Apr 18, 2013)




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## xwatchmanx (Apr 18, 2013)

1234turtles said:


>


Always been my thought. XD


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## FireGrey (Apr 18, 2013)

When is it ok? When the said game you are pirating has DRM.


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## Danny600kill (Apr 18, 2013)

I pirate quite a lot in general to be fair but I have always payed for console games , I really can't afford games at the prices they come out especially on handhelds, so I usually pirate these , unless I really want to play it when it comes out, then I will pre-order it


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## the_randomizer (Apr 18, 2013)

Chocolina said:


> i nvr look at like that i am now informed #YOLO


 
YOLO = Carpe diem for losers


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## Chocolina (Apr 18, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> YOLO = Carpe diem for losers


i nvr look at like that i am now informed #Carpe diem for losers


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## Foxi4 (Apr 18, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> When is it ok? When the said game you are pirating has DRM.


...how does that in any way entitle you to pirate a game? You're still getting the fruits someone's hard work for free despite not being entitled to have them. Your argument falls flat when you consider the fact that you could just buy the game and remove DRM like you would with a pirated copy.


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## pyromaniac123 (Apr 18, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> When is it ok? When the said game you are pirating has DRM.


 
lol you've just opened up a pandora's box full of shitstorm.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 18, 2013)

pyromaniac123 said:


> lol you've just opened up a pandora's box full of shitstorm.


Not really sh*tstorms, no. All I said was _"it's never okay"_, whoever thinks otherwise is just _delusional_ and tries to find solace in thinking that his or her actions are justifiable self-defence againts bad publishing practices, high prices, short campaigns or whatnot, none of which entitle you to get media for free.


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## Gahars (Apr 18, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> When is it ok? When the said game you are pirating has DRM.


 
Ruseman Level: Master


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## joelv6 (Apr 18, 2013)

i cant beleive this thread is still open lol or even dead for that matter

back to the topic
well ill say that i like to support the company that made the game and the publisher because i want more games that are awesome quality to come out. for example, tales of graces f and tales of the abyss got you would say "good sales" so nw namcobandai is bringing tales of xillia first day special edition so yeah
my point is if you pirate then say bye bye to future good titles and say hello to cash in titles lol

I think my point across lol


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## Foxi4 (Apr 18, 2013)

joelv6 said:


> i cant beleive this thread is still open lol or even dead for that matter
> 
> back to the topic
> well ill say that i like to support the company that made the game and the publisher because i want more games that are awesome quality to come out. for example, tales of graces f and tales of the abyss got you would say "good sales" so nw namcobandai is bringing tales of xillia first day special edition so yeah
> ...


Pretty much. Companies make video games to make money on them - if they _don't_ make money on them, they cut corners, make shorter, lesser quality games or invent idiotic ways to protect their interest _(one of those ways was supposed to be DRM and we all know how that turned out)_.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 18, 2013)

I've no qualms supporting companies and their hard work,  I just refuse to support DRM, nor do I see its efficacy or value in using said measures. I just buy the games and remove the DRM, like Ubisoft.


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## xwatchmanx (Apr 18, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> ...how does that in any way entitle you to pirate a game? You're still getting the fruits someone's hard work for free despite not being entitled to have them. Your argument falls flat when you consider the fact that you could just buy the game and remove DRM like you would with a pirated copy.


Except buying the game and then downloading a pirated copy is still considered pirating, as far as the law is concerned.

So what firegrey said still holds water with your opinion.


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## Foxi4 (Apr 19, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Except buying the game and then downloading a pirated copy is still considered pirating, as far as the law is concerned.
> 
> So what firegrey said still holds water with your opinion.


Who said anything about downloading pirated copies? Have you not heard of cracks and patches?


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## xwatchmanx (Apr 19, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Who said anything about downloading pirated copies? Have you not heard of cracks and patches?


I misread your post to say that you were talking about downloading an already DRM-less pirated copy after purchasing. My mistake.


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## the_randomizer (Apr 19, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> I misread your post to say that you were talking about downloading an already DRM-less pirated copy after purchasing. My mistake.


 
I personally don't download PC games....anymore, not after I had a nice long discussion with my parents about doing that. But I do purchase games and circumvent the DRM. Illegal even though not piracy, sure, but do I care? No.


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## RodrigoDavy (Apr 19, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Except buying the game and then downloading a pirated copy is still considered pirating, as far as the law is concerned.


I always found this american law very odd. In a analogy, it's like saying printing a copy of a book you own is illegal but handcopying it is legal.


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## Rydian (Apr 19, 2013)

RodrigoDavy said:


> I always found this american law very odd. In a analogy, it's like saying printing a copy of a book you own is illegal but handcopying it is legal.


That's not legal either since you're producing a second one.  Cracking a game is just editing your first copy.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Apr 19, 2013)

Danny600kill said:


> I pirate quite a lot in general to be fair but I have always payed for console games , I really can't afford games at the prices they come out especially on handhelds, so I usually pirate these , unless I really want to play it when it comes out, then I will pre-order it


 
I would, bears are awesome!


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## Chocolina (Apr 20, 2013)

Omg yes... The information is flowing into me.

I am so thankful for all this information

You guys seriously are a dense mass of minerals


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## Smuff (Apr 20, 2013)

I do what I want. I don't have to justify myself to you or anyone else. You're not my real dad. Now Fuck off! And take your hand off my knee.


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## Maxternal (Apr 23, 2013)

I just HAD to post this.





1234turtles said:


> Spoiler


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## the_randomizer (Apr 23, 2013)

Chocolina said:


> Omg yes... The information is flowing into me.
> 
> I am so thankful for all this information
> 
> You guys seriously are a dense mass of minerals


 





What? You did call us a bag of minerals after all.


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## Filipe C Bello dos Santos (Apr 26, 2013)

Maxternal said:


> I just HAD to post this.


 
That don't change the fact that i we could DL cars, we would for sure.


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## pyromaniac123 (Apr 26, 2013)

Filipe C Bello dos Santos said:


> That don't change the fact that i we could DL cars, we would for sure.


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## Wolvenreign (Apr 29, 2013)

When is piracy okay?

Always.


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## guicrith (Apr 30, 2013)

Chary said:


> Pirating is ALWAYS okay!
> *Hugs HDD with questionably illegal downloads.*


Agreed


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## Subtle Demise (May 3, 2013)

I'm not one of those people that try to justify what I do. I know it's wrong and I just don't care. It saves me money, after all. Life is too short and pointless to get hung up on morality.


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## Coto (May 3, 2013)

piracy is as nice as you've got spare time to play the content you've got. Otherwise it is either: A) a waste of time B) An investment


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## TheRedfox (May 3, 2013)

Piracy is OK when you have the best usenet subscription avaliable, in 2013 you can't pirate without a fast usenet server :3


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## xwatchmanx (May 3, 2013)

Subtle Demise said:


> I'm not one of those people that try to justify what I do. I know it's wrong and I just don't care. It saves me money, after all. Life is too short and pointless to get hung up on morality.


At least you're honest.


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## the_randomizer (May 3, 2013)

As Homer Simpson said:

"Myth: Cable piracy is wrong,
Fact: Cable companies are big, faceless corporations, which makes it okay."


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## DiabloStorm (May 3, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> ...how does that in any way entitle you to pirate a game? You're still getting the fruits someone's hard work for free despite not being entitled to have them. Your argument falls flat when you consider the fact that you could just buy the game and remove DRM like you would with a pirated copy.


When DRM inconveniences nobody but real customers, does nothing but encourage piracy in and of itself and when there is no other choice: you have to buy the game and the DRM as one package, it makes sense to not want to reward companies that attach said DRM to their software. It's called voting with your wallet. DRM is part of what you're purchasing and most people don't willingly buy into pointless inconvenience. Also, there's no point in trying to police people on this, technology is changing the way these types of markets work, adapt or die because piracy is not going to go away, no matter how much you want to bitch and complain, moral crusaders.


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## Foxi4 (May 3, 2013)

DiabloStorm said:


> When DRM inconveniences nobody but real customers, does nothing but encourage piracy in and of itself and when there is no other choice: you have to buy the game and the DRM as one package, it makes sense to not want to reward companies that attach said DRM to their software. It's called voting with your wallet. DRM is part of what you're purchasing and most people don't willingly buy into pointless inconvenience. Also, there's no point in trying to police people on this, technology is changing the way these types of markets work, adapt or die because piracy is not going to go away, no matter how much you want to bitch and complain, moral crusaders.


I'm bitching and complaining? By no means. Am I a moral crusader? Oh, of course not! I pirate things myself. Thing is, I am aware of the fact that _what I'm doing is wrong_ and I accept that fact instead of trying to find pitiful excuses for myself.

You can carry on and devise dozens of reasons as to why what you're doing is a necessary evil, but at the end of the day, you're using media that you're not entitled to use, and as such you commit an offense and nothing can justify that. You can deal with it and carry on with your life or you can keep lying to yourself that you're a _"shining knight fighting for a noble cause in the battle againts the evils of DRM"_, when for all intents and purposes, DRM was introduced to combat _"crusaders"_ like yourself.


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## Chary (May 3, 2013)

What's the point if we can prove if piracy is okay or not? So long as its possible, people will still pirate, regardless of morality.


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## DiabloStorm (May 3, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I'm bitching and complaining? By no means. Am I a moral crusader? Oh, of course not! I pirate things myself. Thing is, I am aware of the fact that _what I'm doing is wrong_ and I accept that fact instead of trying to find pitiful excuses for myself.
> 
> You can carry on and devise dozens of reasons as to why what you're doing is a necessary evil, but at the end of the day, you're using media that you're not entitled to use, and as such you commit an offense and nothing can justify that. You can deal with it and carry on with your life or you can keep lying to yourself that you're a _"shining knight fighting for a noble cause in the battle againts the evils of DRM"_, when for all intents and purposes, DRM was introduced to combat _"crusaders"_ like yourself.


Nobody cares. Besides the fact that I was making a general statement and wasn't singling you out (I suppose quoting you is one and the same) DRM combats who exactly? Why not take a step back and actually look. BTW I like how you automatically think I'm a pirate.


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## Rydian (May 4, 2013)

DiabloStorm said:


> ~


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## Foxi4 (May 4, 2013)

DiabloStorm said:


> Nobody cares. Besides the fact that I was making a general statement and wasn't singling you out (I suppose quoting you is one and the same) DRM combats who exactly? Why not take a step back and actually look. BTW I like how you automatically think I'm a pirate.


It was somewhat self-explainatory from the contents of your post but now that I read it again, you did mention _"voting with your wallet"_. As for piracy not going away, of course it won't - piracy is older than computer science, people have copied and will copy media for as long as that's an option _(meaning probably forever)_ and I don't think it's something weird - I'm merely stating that it's no noble crusade and that one has to accept who he or she is rather than make up excuses.


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## Rydian (May 4, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> piracy is older than computer science


Fo'rizzle.  People were using radios to record radio shows onto tapes and passing them around for ages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Taping_Is_Killing_Music
Hell, one of the oldest game systems used cassettes for game data, so people found they could just copy them like audio ones and have a copy of the game.


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## xwatchmanx (May 4, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> It was somewhat self-explainatory from the contents of your post but now that I read it again, you did mention _"voting with your wallet"_. As for piracy not going away, of course it won't - piracy is older than computer science, people have copied and will copy media for as long as that's an option _(meaning probably forever)_ and I don't think it's something weird - I'm merely stating that it's no noble crusade and that one has to accept who he or she is rather than make up excuses.


Modern piracy needs it's Jack Sparrow, so it can become trendy like classic piracy.


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## Foxi4 (May 4, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Hell, one of the oldest game systems used cassettes for game data, so people found they could just copy them like audio ones and have a copy of the game.


Those were actually the Golden Days of _"computing and gaming"_ in Poland - every bigger city and town had their own tiny conventions where people exchanged or copied FDD's and cassettes or modded their systems on the fly, attending those was pretty awesome and a weekly must. The trend continued through CD-based systems but began to die out with the latest two generations - now only the biggest cities have conventions like this, fortunately I live near one such city, but the meetings themselves are nowhere near their old splendor.


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## the_randomizer (May 4, 2013)

Since discussing why piracy is immoral or why it isn't, let's all agree that those who do it aren't going to stop and that nothing can be done to prevent it from happening? It's a lost cause.


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## xist (May 4, 2013)

Because 48k is all you ever need...


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## Gahars (May 4, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Since discussing why piracy is immoral or why it isn't, let's all agree that those who do it aren't going to stop and that nothing can be done to prevent it from happening? It's a lost cause.


 
This is a needlessly defeatist view.

Of course something can be done about it - make the pirates a better offer. Offer a service that's both legitimate and convenient and people will be more than happy to abide by the law. Steam, Netflix, and Spotify are all great examples of this policy in action across three different mediums.

It's anything but hopeless - companies just need to approach the problem differently.


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## the_randomizer (May 4, 2013)

Gahars said:


> This is a needlessly defeatist view.
> 
> Of course something can be done about it - make the pirates a better offer. Offer a service that's both legitimate and convenient and people will be more than happy to abide by the law. Steam, Netflix, and Spotify are all great examples of this policy in action across three different mediums.
> 
> It's anything but hopeless - companies just need to approach the problem differently.


 
Which clearly isn't likely to happen anytime soon. Steam, Netflix, etc are good solutions, I won't deny that, but piracy is so widespread, it will take one helluva act to undo the damage. First things first, abolish or rewite the DMCA to be less ambiguous. As for companies that try to curtail it, they should, you know not make legit users suffer by implementing invasive DRM (see: all DRM is invasive) . If they think DRM/AP helps with sales....they're wrong, it only encourages legit customers to circumvent said protection so they can use the product they legally purchased. DRM is not the way of the future.


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## FAST6191 (May 4, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Which clearly isn't likely to happen anytime soon.  Steam, Netflix, etc are good solutions, I won't deny that, but piracy is so widespread, it will take one helluva act to undo the damage. First things first, abolish or rewite the DMCA to be less ambiguous.



Some aspects of IP rights and maybe some aspects of data retention aside I do not see the DMCA stopping companies from considering and implementing alternative monetisation models. Indeed many game developers and publishers are actively pursuing such models.


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## The Catboy (Jul 22, 2013)

Sorry for the bump, but I never did get the chance to put my input in.
Personally I am not 100% sure how I feel about piracy. What I mean is, I morally see it as wrong, why? Because you are downloading a song, software, video, ect ect, that you didn't pay for. This doesn't make it theft since you are just taking a copy, but it's still something that was taken without proper exchange of currency or trade.
But at the same time I see little to no harm downloading something like an N64 rom or songs from singers who are long dead, because often times no one is gaining or losing anything from them since they lost their value when that system/artist/ect died.

And to branch this off more, I do see hacking you system as 100% ok, as long as you are doing it for the right reasons. Like say I hacked my xbox to play my backups. I'm not distributing them, I just ripping them to my hard drive so I don't damage the disks playing them. I see nothing wrong in that, you are copying the games you paid for to the system you paid for. And if you are just running homebrews, then you are supporting small devs who normally wouldn't get any attention. But if you just do it to play backed up games you pirated, I see a problem in that.

This is just my personal take on this subject. Quite honestly it doesn't mean I will claim I never pirated a current game before because that would be a lie, I've done it countless times in the past nor am I am going to preach to those who do because it's their life not mine.


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## Ethevion (Jul 22, 2013)

I think pirating is fine. The companies still make money from the many people who pay and I get what I want with my pirate discount card. That's my opinion, I wont try to force it onto you.


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## the_randomizer (Jul 22, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> Sorry for the bump, but I never did get the chance to put my input in.
> Personally I am not 100% sure how I feel about piracy. What I mean is, I morally see it as wrong, why? Because you are downloading a song, software, video, ect ect, that you didn't pay for. This doesn't make it theft since you are just taking a copy, but it's still something that was taken without proper exchange of currency or trade.
> But at the same time I see little to no harm downloading something like an N64 rom or songs from singers who are long dead, because often times no one is gaining or losing anything from them since they lost their value when that system/artist/ect died.
> 
> ...


 

Likewise, I hacked my Wii primarily to back up all my Wii and Gamecube games because it's helluva lot easier to access them all in one place. As for legacy games, same deal, N64, most Snes, Genesis/Megadrive games are no longer being sold by the companies. In all honesty, I don't feel bad for having those on my Wii as well. Songs, movies, PC games I don't pirate because I don't trust torrents or torrent clients.


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## mkdms14 (Jul 22, 2013)

By the laws of the land pirating is never ok, but since many of us live in places where many of the laws don't make sense I say go for it.


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## Ray Lewis (Jul 22, 2013)

This is one of those topics that people RARELY budge on.  I read some to amuse myself but have seen enough of these threads to know it is a stalemate.  Seen both sides, have gone back and forth with it, etc.  It is amusing to read though, very amusing.


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## EpicLuigi1134 (Jul 23, 2013)

I didn't read all the posts up to 39 BUT ill answer the topic.

I think pirating is OKAY when theres a game (EarthBound, Atari Games etc) that you can't get in the stores or anything so you just download it. Unless you want to spent 200 dollars getting it, be my guest.


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## thexx (Jul 23, 2013)

I have an interesting bit for this. I'm not saying its Good but I do it. I feel if you make a small donation to the company then there shouldn't be much of a problem. Sort of a pay what you can, or what you think its worth. Sort of like bidding, but you always win I guess?


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## EpicLuigi1134 (Jul 23, 2013)

Yeahp, but I do pay some money for the company im pirating from by buying their games.


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## EpicLuigi1134 (Jul 23, 2013)

Yeahp, but I do pay some money for the company im pirating from by buying their games.


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## Ubuntuの刀 (Jul 24, 2013)

When will this thread die? People are making accounts just to reply to this thread. If you are gonna pirate, go and pirate!


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## Haloman800 (Jul 24, 2013)

Not sure if it's been posted, but for an answer to OPs question, check out


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## Haloman800 (Jul 24, 2013)

double post, sorry!


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## Metoroid0 (Jul 24, 2013)

Do not


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## Metoroid0 (Jul 24, 2013)

Worry


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