# There are only two genders. Change my mind.



## GhostLatte (Apr 26, 2018)

Please keep this civil.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

Gender is an outdated concept and you can present as basically anything you want to. In that sense sex and gender aren't equal, but in the same way that one can have many different sexual orientations, there's also a spectrum ranging from masculine and feminine presenting that a person might chose to present as


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 26, 2018)

want me to convince you the earth is flat too?

seriously though people seem to have conflated personality, interests hobbies and kinks with gender at this point though, there has always been masculine females and feminine males and people who dress up in weird outfits for sex, we don't need to make new genders for every single different thing or every combination of things someone decides they want to do


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## Navonod (Apr 26, 2018)

Biologically there are only two genders or to be more specific two sexual "tools" in our biological make up. I'd like to hear a compelling argument as well.


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## ShadowOne333 (Apr 26, 2018)

Same here, I agree with OP (what's there to NOT agree with?)
Our DNA is made to basically have either chromosomes XX or XY.
Sure there are some instances where someone might be born with the sexual organs of both male and females, like it's the case of Intersex/Hermaphrodite, but taking into account nature and our genetic makeup of the human as it is, there is only female and male.

If you are a transvestite, a transsexual, a Trans-Am, a transylvanian or whatever, or have god-knows whatever sexual orientation or social tendecy (because damn I don't know where people come up with that stuff), it's a matter of psycology and personal preference, it's not a "sex" by nature.


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## DarthDub (Apr 26, 2018)

It's times like these where I wish gender was tied to sex to avoid confusion, but that's not how it works.


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## KiiWii (Apr 26, 2018)

I filled out a form this week that asked "male/female". 

I was shook.


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## osaka35 (Apr 26, 2018)

Let's define some terms before continuing. This is important. Most people conflate many concepts, or have incomplete understanding.

Sex - Biological.
Gender - Social.

Gender is just "oh hey, this is how this sex kind of looks", and you humans kind of just build loads of stuff into that definition. Men do and look like this, women do and look like this, men have more of this, women have more of this, etc. a two-gender system is just kind of a...stereotype of how one of the two most common sex expresses itself. And like a stereotype, it has a lot of falsehoods baked into the assumption. Think of folks fighting against a strict 2 gender system as fighting against stereotypes. As gender is way of saying, this is how people express their sex. So some folks are fine with 2, some are fine with a varying scale of attributes.

Sex is biological. and *usually* has just two. But genetics is not super strict like most folks think so. Someone could have XXY and be male, but have a lot of female attributes. sometimes you can be XY and have mainly female attributes because of hormones. It would be difficult for these people to fit into any gender norm, so for these people in particular, it can be difficult.

So yeah, "only two genders" is just kind of...vagueness so you don't have to think too hard about things. But once you get into it and look closely, it's nowhere near descriptive of reality.


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## dimmidice (Apr 26, 2018)

Biologically there are only two sexes. Gender is a social construct, and as society changes we may end up with a thousand. Now i honestly think it's a little bit iffy to add on more genders. I can agree to a third for the few people who fall beyond the standard male/female. But most of those will still identify as male or female. 
Anything more than three is completely pointless tbh.


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## ShadowOne333 (Apr 26, 2018)

One important point to make:
Who the hell would want to find a bathroom from 72 door choices? :^}
Fuck no I prefer to have only 2 doors in any food place, thank you


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## kbmarinha (Apr 26, 2018)

I agree with OP
There is only XX and XY.
Even if a guy cut of his dick, implant tits and use hormones it wont turn him on a woman. You cant change DNA


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> want me to convince you the earth is flat too?
> 
> seriously though people seem to have conflated personality, interests hobbies and kinks with gender at this point though, there has always been masculine females and feminine males and people who dress up in weird outfits for sex, we don't need to make new genders for every single different thing or every combination of things someone decides they want to do


There's nothing sexual about someone who presents as either intersex or the opposite gender as they were born, though. It's a purely personal choice that they present daily, rather than just for the bedroom. It's not a kink, nor should it be


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## ShadowOne333 (Apr 26, 2018)

kbmarinha said:


> I agree with OP
> There is only XX and XY.
> Even if a guy cut of his dick, implant tits and use hormones it wont turn him on a woman. You cant change DNA


I mean, you can try radioactive materials, perhaps that will change your DNA beyond recognition, but I doubt radiation can make you change sex


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## dimmidice (Apr 26, 2018)

This topic is about gender, not sex though.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

ShadowOne333 said:


> Same here, I agree with OP (what's there to NOT agree with?)
> Our DNA is made to basically have either chromosomes XX or XY.
> Sure there are some instances where someone might be born with the sexual organs of both male and females, like it's the case of Intersex/Hermaphrodite, but taking into account nature and our genetic makeup of the human as it is, there is only female and male.
> 
> If you are a transvestite, a transsexual, a Trans-Am, a transylvanian or whatever, or have god-knows whatever sexual orientation (because damn I don't know where people come up with that stuff), it's a matter of psycology and personal preference, it's not a "sex" by nature.


See, gender IS psychological, whereas sex (not sexual orientation) is the physical aspect



dimmidice said:


> This topic is about gender, not sex though.


Exactly


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## kbmarinha (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> See, gender IS psychological, whereas sex (not sexual orientation) is the physical aspect



So if I believe im an angel that means I dont have a gender at all?


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## TangentingTangerines (Apr 26, 2018)

So remember kids, when you use the term gender, you're using the unproven terminology of a mad scientist, who happily committed human experimentation, tortured a pair of twin boys, drove them both to suicide, and got away with it!


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

kbmarinha said:


> So if I believe im an angel that means I dont have a gender at all?


No, but you can be non-binary and achieve the same thing


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## DarthDub (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> No, but you can be non-binary and achieve the same thing


I refuse to identify as human. I'm a Xenomorph now


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## KingVamp (Apr 26, 2018)

Maybe far into the future, someone or some people can find away to change sex as well, but then you could probably change a lot of other things too.



ShadowOne333 said:


> One important point to make:
> Who the hell would want to find a proper bathroom from 72 door choices? :^}
> Fuck no I prefer to have only 2 doors in any food place, thank you


Unisex bathrooms were and are a thing before genders got out of hand.


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## nWo (Apr 26, 2018)

No need to change nothing at all. You got it all right and nice. Nature, and that´s the bottom line.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> I refuse to identify as human. I'm a Xenomorph now


And now we come back around to the reminder that while gender is a social construct, sex is the physical aspect, which is what you appear to be attempting to parody

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



KingVamp said:


> Maybe far into the future, someone or some people can find away to change sex as well, but then you could probably change a lot of other things too.
> 
> 
> Unisex bathrooms were and are a thing before genders got out of hand.


A lot of transgender individuals do hormone replacement therapy, which effectively slowly alters their sex over time. It's obviously not DNA resequencing or anything, but it's kind of a mid-way point for the time being. Either way it's a very effective way to pass as the opposite gender, regardless of what your biological birth sex was


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> There's nothing sexual about someone who presents as either intersex or the opposite gender as they were born, though. It's a purely personal choice that they present daily, rather than just for the bedroom. It's not a kink, nor should it be


so gimp costumes are totally normal to walk around in on a daily basis *noted*

PS I'm not saying its bad to be into that shit.....you do you, just don't try make it into something it isnt


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> so gimp costumes are totally normal to walk around in on a daily basis *noted*


Don't exactly like your terminology, but why not?


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Don't exactly like your terminology, but why not?


I would imagine the pvc would get very sweaty if worn in a business setting tbh

but again, you do you, just don't moan if people find nipple tassels and butt plugs a bit weird outside of the bedroom


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## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 26, 2018)

I... Don't know what to believe. Today's society is trying to distort hundreds, if not thousands of years of study and research to fit a social standard. The sad part is that it's working. I don't care what you "identify" as. Means jack to me. Just don't try to tell me there are upwards of 80 "genders" that all have oddly sophisticated meanings. Life doesn't have to be so complex, but apparently that's not my choice, as a cis-gendered white male. Whatever the fuck that means.


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## Xzi (Apr 26, 2018)

I don't think this really belongs in this section, but I guess if the mods are fine with it, shitpost away.


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## osaka35 (Apr 26, 2018)

kbmarinha said:


> I agree with OP
> There is only XX and XY.
> Even if a guy cut of his dick, implant tits and use hormones it wont turn him on a woman. You cant change DNA


There's also XXY, XY female presenting (testosterone doesn't have the affect it normally does), XX male presenting (large levels of testosterone), and so on and so forth. Biology isn't as neat and clean as you'd hope. You just learn it that way because it's "close enough" for highschool level of knowledge, and that decision really needs to be addressed. Because if you want to be completely accurate, there's a lot more going on. Reality is far more interesting than you, and a lot of folks, give it credit. There's also a difference between sex and gender  You're talking just about sex when talking about chromosomes, and you're talking about gender when you discuss how people express their sex.

And transgender is another topic altogether  That's when the brain develops as one while the body develops as another (usually). Since we value the person rather than the body, we go with how the person is rather than how they look.


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## RustInPeace (Apr 26, 2018)

GhostLatte said:


> Please keep this civil.



Hey, it's RIP. I hope you'll reconsider that there are only 2 genders. You're way too powerful and influential to endorse this, and what that stands for. As you know, what you say really means something to your fans. They are loyal to you and respect your opinion. So many people who love you feel so betrayed right now because they know the harm that the statement you made causes, especially to people in the LGBQT community. Don't let this be part of your legacy. You're the greatest GBATemp member of our generation.

Now I can do this.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> I would imagine the pvc would get very sweaty if worn in a business setting tbh
> 
> but again, you do you, just don't moan if people find nipple tassels and butt plugs a bit weird outside of the bedroom


Oh, I see, I assumed "gimp" was a derogatory term along the lines of "cross-dressing". That's obviously a big no-no, because again there's a sexual aspect there and no one else is consenting to see that in public


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

Memoir said:


> I... Don't know what to believe. Today's society is trying to distort hundreds, if not thousands of years of study and research to fit a social standard. The sad part is that it's working. I don't care what you "identify" as. Means jack to me. Just don't try to tell me there are upwards of 80 "genders" that all have oddly sophisticated meanings. Life doesn't have to be so complex, but apparently that's not my choice, as a cis-gendered white male. Whatever the fuck that means.


Which studies are you referring to?


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

I'm sorry I have to completely disagree with @TotalInsanity4 gender isn't a social concept, it's very definition is "the state of being male or female." and it has been for centuries, if not millennia, hipsters won't change that definition even if they try.

This isn't a discussion its strictly binary, you are either one or the other there is no other option.

Now sexual orientation is a different conversation, this has ever expanded recently in what I believe is related to narcissism and an individuals belief that thanks to the Internet, their opinions are paramount and take precedence above all others, that they should be acknowledged no matter how idiotic some of them are as whether through psychosis or actual belief that they are genuine. such as the woman who married a roller coaster, or the man who married his car.

Now before anyone says I'm not saying these feelings aren't genuine, I'm just saying for the minority, just because you say you are doesn't necessarily make it an actuality... Or does it?


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## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Which studies are you referring to?


Just a general statement actually. People who believe the earth is flat, people who believe NASA is a hoax. Standard tin foil conspiracies that 20 years ago would have been laughed at. Now more and more people are taking it seriously and "Idiocracy" is slowing becoming reality.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



yusuo said:


> I'm sorry I have to completely disagree with @TotalInsanity4 gender isn't a social concept, it's very definition is "the state of being male or female." and it has been for centuries, if not millennia, hipsters won't change that definition even if they try.
> 
> This isn't a discussion its strictly binary, you are either one or the other there is no other option.
> 
> ...


Reality and actuality are questionable anymore.


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## SG854 (Apr 26, 2018)

I think the question should be, "should people create more than 2 genders?" Since gender is social construct based on masculine or feminine traits you express. Should we create a new gender just because you range not completely masculine but 7/10ths of the way? Or 6/10ths of the way? Or a new gender because you express both, or neither, etc. People can barely memorize the periodic elements and people expect to memorize all the genders?

The point of language is to simplify it, not complicate it. This is why we have reductions and contractions in the English language. Do we really need all these genders to explain every little differences just because you are not the complete stereotypical male or female? Can't just saying "i'm a less masculine male" suffice? Show people the list of all the genders and people will say i'm out thats way too much.

Sex itself is biological and based on hormones. Autism is basically extreme maleness, based on how much prenatal hormones you receive. People who are autistic are more male than most men. And theirs also Neuroplasticity which means some biological traits are not rigid, are moldable, this is what the mammalian Neocortex allow's us to override primitive reptilian traits that are biologically automatic. Women are biologically typically much better communicators and better with human bonding than men. But if you give males an incentive like offer them money, males will learn feminine traits and do it as well as women.


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Oh, I see, I assumed "gimp" was a derogatory term along the lines of "cross-dressing". That's obviously a big no-no, because again there's a sexual aspect there and no one else is consenting to see that in public


who are you to say I cant wear weird sexual fetish outfits in public you bigot

but seriously that's the point either its everything or its not, if its not then you cant take the moral high ground

sure its nice to think everyone can feel comfortable doing what they want, but that's what bedrooms and homes are for, if you want to do weird not normal shit your more than welcome to, just don't try force people to say "wow your choice to marry a peg is a great idea"


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Just a general statement actually. People who believe the earth is flat, people who believe NASA is a hoax. Standard tin foil conspiracies that 20 years ago would have been laughed at. Now more and more people are taking it seriously and "Idiocracy" is slowing becoming reality.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


Reality is questionable and you hit the nail on the head with that and your other comment. Idiocracy has become prevalent due to validation from other like minded individuals 3000 miles away, and so and so on until there enough like minded individuals all shouting in unison that others then pay attention, no matter how absurd the original premise is


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 26, 2018)

ShadowOne333 said:


> Same here, I agree with OP (what's there to NOT agree with?)
> Our DNA is made to basically have either chromosomes XX or XY.
> Sure there are some instances where someone might be born with the sexual organs of both male and females, like it's the case of Intersex/Hermaphrodite, but taking into account nature and our genetic makeup of the human as it is, there is only female and male.
> 
> If you are a transvestite, a transsexual, a Trans-Am, a transylvanian or whatever, or have god-knows whatever sexual orientation (because damn I don't know where people come up with that stuff), it's a matter of psycology and personal preference, it's not a "sex" by nature.


Sexual orientation =/= gender

smh...


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 26, 2018)

I think the problem is people seeing its a spectrum and thinking wow we need to give every shade of red its own category, oh and every shade of blue needs its own category, the people arguing "no its just red and blue" aren't saying there isn't different shades, they are saying the alternative is stupid and overly complicated


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## SG854 (Apr 26, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> I think the problem is people seeing its a spectrum and thinking wow we need to give every shade of red its own category, oh and every shade of blue needs its own category, the people arguing "no its just red and blue" aren't saying there isn't different shades, they are saying the alternative is stupid and overly complicated


There's Pantone and a names for many different shades of blue, red, etc. But I agree I think all these genders is a bit too much. Its too much too memorize, and its something most people wont bother with since the majority of the population straight. Only a minority are gay, trans, and so on. Not enough to spend time to study and memorize like a test just for a few people that think every shade needs a new gender.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

yusuo said:


> I'm sorry I have to completely disagree with @TotalInsanity4 gender isn't a social concept, it's very definition is "the state of being male or female." and it has been for centuries, if not millennia, hipsters won't change that definition even if they try.
> 
> This isn't a discussion its strictly binary, you are either one or the other there is no other option.
> 
> ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction


gamesquest1 said:


> who are you to say I cant wear weird sexual fetish outfits in public you bigot
> 
> but seriously that's the point either its everything or its not, if its not then you cant take the moral high ground
> 
> sure its nice to think everyone can feel comfortable doing what they want, but that's what bedrooms and homes are for, if you want to do weird not normal shit your more than welcome to, just don't try force people to say "wow your choice to marry a peg is a great idea"


Again, you seem to think that presenting as a different gender than you are is some sexual fetish-y thing. It's not. It's just a person going about their lives, presenting as either the opposite gender or something between their current and the opposite.

As for the "public BDSM outfit" analogy you give, it's not even comparable. Again, anything sexual (which, as you correctly assume, THAT is) comes down to the consent of everyone participating; by going out in public in what IS objectively a fetish outfit, you're forcing everyone you encounter to participate in your fetish without their consent.


SG854 said:


> There's Pantone and a names for many different shades of blue, red, etc. But I agree I think all these genders is a bit too much. Its too much too memorize, and its something most people wont bother with since the majority of the population straight. Only a minority are gay, trans, and so on. Not enough to spend time to study and memorize like a test just for a few people that think every shade needs a new gender.


No need to memorize, just be respectful if someone asks you to address them by a different name or pronoun. It's really not difficult once you're used to it.

And "they" is universally safe, if you're not certain one way or another


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 26, 2018)

SG854 said:


> There's Pantone and a names for many different shades of blue, red, etc. But I agree I think all these genders is a bit too much. Its too much too memorize, and its something most people wont bother with since the majority of the population straight. Only a minority are gay, trans, and so on. Not enough to spend time to study and memorize like a test just for a few people that think every shade needs a new gender.


yeah the whole idea behind gender is to simplify communication, I can say her over there and if there is 20 guys and one girl you know exactly who I'm referring to, if you try memorizing every possible shade 99% of people wont know what on earth your talking about if you say "see xir over there" suddenly your words are useless and you have to physically point to exactly what person you mean, and even then that depends on you knowing exactly what silly shade the person identifies with else the calls of bigotry and intolerance start, ill just stick to the tried and tested simple terms that make things easier instead of pointlessly complicated


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> yeah the whole idea behind gender is to simplify communication, I can say her over there and if there is 20 guys and one girl you know exactly who I'm referring to, if you try memorizing every possible shade 99% of people wont know what on earth your talking about if you say "see xir over there" suddenly your words are useless and you have to physically point to exactly what person you mean, and even then that depends on you knowing exactly what silly shade the person identifies with else the calls of bigotry and intolerance start, ill just stick to the tried and tested simple terms that make things easier instead of pointlessly complicated


There's virtually no one who will get huffy if you misgender them once (mainly because in today's society no one can AFFORD to, even if they aren't particularly polite to begin with), they'll either roll with it or correct you once or twice. I don't know anyone who would even be too upset if you misgendered them out of habit, so long as you're making an effort and you aren't deliberately doing it maliciously


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction


This isn't a good enough rebuttal.

We were specifically told in university to not use Wikipedia as anyone on this planet can manipulate an article, thus making it inaccurate. 

I could jump on there right now if I so wished and change it to read that the difference between genders is one having a tail and the other having external pulmonary organs.


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## DarthDub (Apr 26, 2018)

yusuo said:


> This isn't a good enough rebuttal.
> 
> We were specifically told in university to not use Wikipedia as anyone on this planet can manipulate an article, thus making it inaccurate.
> 
> I could jump on there right now if I so wished and change it to read that the difference between genders is one having a tail and the other having external pulmonary organs.


[citation needed]


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## philo (Apr 26, 2018)

it depends on what you define gender as.. if gender is what you "feel" like.. the sky is the limit.. if gender is biological, there's two.. three if you include intersex as a gender.


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> [citation needed]


No citation needed.

All I was stating is that Wikipedia as a whole is as accurate as the guy preaching 9/11 conspiracies as irrefutable fact


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

yusuo said:


> This isn't a good enough rebuttal.
> 
> We were specifically told in university to not use Wikipedia as anyone on this planet can manipulate an article, thus making it inaccurate.
> 
> I could jump on there right now if I so wished and change it to read that the difference between genders is one having a tail and the other having external pulmonary organs.


When did you attend university? Mine's perfectly fine with students using it as an OVERVIEW source (as in a place to start your research, rather than a final source) because the professors all recognize that Wikipedia is heavily moderated by experts in the given fields, and citations are required for basically any credible information to make it on. "Wikipedia isn't a reliable source!" is either a five-year-old argument or one given by high school teachers who are oversimplifying the essay-writing process


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

philo said:


> it depends on what you define gender as.. if gender is what you "feel" like.. the sky is the limit.. if gender is biological, there's two.. three if you include intersex as a gender.


Intersex isn't a gender, it's a mutation of the genome, same way people born with less than 5 fingers or toes aren't seen as a sub-species


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

yusuo said:


> No citation needed.
> 
> All I was stating is that Wikipedia as a whole is as accurate as the guy preaching 9/11 conspiracies as irrefutable fact


[citation needed]


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## cots (Apr 26, 2018)

Your gender is based on your sexual organs. From what I know there are only 2 types.


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## philo (Apr 26, 2018)

yusuo said:


> Intersex isn't a gender, it's a mutation of the genome, same way people born with less than 5 fingers or toes aren't seen as a sub-species



while i agree, there are people who treat "intersex" as a gender..


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> When did you attend university? Mine's perfectly fine with students using it as an OVERVIEW source (as in a place to start your research, rather than a final source) because the professors all recognize that Wikipedia is heavily moderated by experts in the given fields, and citations are required for basically any credible information to make it on. "Wikipedia isn't a reliable source!" is either a five-year-old argument or one given by high school teachers who are oversimplifying the essay-writing process


Although heavily moderated it isn't 100% accurate and although we could use Wikipedia we were discouraged because of the possibilities of these inaccuracies. 

Any who I'm getting of course, while I appreciate your opinion and respect what you have to say, my own opinion contradicts it. But this is healthy and normal discussion and unlike some on the Internet I refuse to turn into a man child in relation to an exchanging of opinions


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

yusuo said:


> Intersex isn't a gender, it's a mutation of the genome, same way people born with less than 5 fingers or toes aren't seen as a sub-species


Your argument would be more valid if the discussion were of the existence of another species between humanity and a two-fingered species, and the only difference between the two was the number of fingers


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Your argument would be more valid if the discussion were of the existence of another species between humanity and a two-fingered species, and the only difference between the two was the number of fingers


This was but an example, there are a large list of human defects that if one wished could be interpreted as an additional (enter classification here)
However if those who wish to identify as intersex wish to clarify themselves as a separate gender who am I to argue otherwise


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

yusuo said:


> Although heavily moderated it isn't 100% accurate and although we could use Wikipedia we were discouraged because of the possibilities of these inaccuracies.


I understand what you're saying, but that's addressed in the Wikipedia page I linked, wherein an IBM study stated that while controversial articles are subject to vandalism (of which I'd argue the page I linked is one), those pages in particular have an incredibly low turnaround rate for corrections



> Any who I'm getting of course, while I appreciate your opinion and respect what you have to say, my own opinion contradicts it. But this is healthy and normal discussion and unlike some on the Internet I refuse to turn into a man child in relation to an exchanging of opinions


I appreciate that, and I respect the opinions of everyone who's opinions don't directly affect the safety or comfort of others; you have the right to an opinion, so long as you don't go starting an argument with someone who is either transgender or non-binary about what you feel their gender SHOULD be


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## yusuo (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but that's addressed in the Wikipedia page I linked, wherein an IBM study stated that while controversial articles are subject to vandalism (of which I'd argue the page I linked is one), those pages in particular have an incredibly low turnaround rate for corrections
> 
> 
> I appreciate that, and I respect the opinions of everyone who's opinions don't directly affect the safety or comfort of others; you have the right to an opinion, so long as you don't go starting an argument with someone who is either transgender or non-binary about what you feel their gender SHOULD be


Ahh no man, each to their own, like I said on my previous post if a person identifies as x and it makes them happy having that identify who am I to tell them they're wrong


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## Seriel (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I don't know anyone who would even be too upset if you misgendered them out of habit, so long as you're making an effort and you aren't deliberately doing it maliciously


My irl friends have been known to do this occasionally, usually they apologize and we laugh it off. I don't ever mind as long as you don't deliberately continue or do it with malicious intent.
(It's worth noting at this point that I am not nonbinary so I'm not talking about that specifically, just felt to need to mention this relating to this quote. In case I never mentioned it, I'm a transgirl.)


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

Seriel said:


> My irl friends have been known to do this occasionally, usually they apologize and we laugh it off. I don't ever mind as long as you don't deliberately continue or do it with malicious intent.
> (It's worth noting at this point that I am not nonbinary so I'm not talking about that specifically, just felt to need to mention this relating to this quote. In case I never mentioned it, I'm a transgirl.)


I'd say it applies equally to you as anyone else, I wasn't referring to any one orientation in particular


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## Eddypikachu (Apr 26, 2018)

Non-binary genders are not a modern invention, the idea if third genders or non binary genders are really as old as human civilization bc gender is subjective as well as a social construct and as such peoples ideas of gender have changed over time. For example in mosopotamian mythology, among the earliest written record of humanity there are references to types of people who are not men and not women, a third gender if you will 
If you are genuinely interested in this topic tho I here's some articles I would love for you to read 
https://www.newstatesman.com/future...osomes-story-century-misconceptions-about-x-y
This first article will go over the science over the chromosomes you keep talking about and inform you of the complexity of chromosomes in nature that will take you past what high school would teach you
http://www.theplaidzebra.com/scienc...lank-slates-and-gender-is-merely-a-construct/
this next article delves into the science your brain
Again, if you're really interested in the topic I'd recommend reading these articles that are backed up with many sources (there's hotlinks on the articles that take you to the sources like any other scholarly article) I'd love to hear your thoughts once you finish reading them maybe?? They're all based on scientific studies, recent ones at that with credible sources


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## KingVamp (Apr 26, 2018)

To be fair, it isn't like all these genders, serious or not, are recognized by official papers. If we have to have a 3rd official gender, I would be fine with "intergender" for intersex people.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> A lot of transgender individuals do hormone replacement therapy, which effectively slowly alters their sex over time. It's obviously not DNA resequencing or anything, but it's kind of a mid-way point for the time being. Either way it's a very effective way to pass as the opposite gender, regardless of what your biological birth sex was


Not to be that guy, but uh... I already know about this.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

KingVamp said:


> To be fair, it isn't like all these genders, serious or not, are recognized by official papers. If we have to have a 3rd official gender, I would be fine with "intergender" for intersex people.
> 
> 
> Not to be that guy, but uh... I already know about this.


Apologies, then. I didn't mean to man-splain anything, either, that's not how I intended it to come across at all lol


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## leon315 (Apr 26, 2018)

*There are only two genders. Change my mind.*

yes indeed, just like god created.


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## SirNapkin1334 (Apr 26, 2018)

I'll just say my opinion.
There are two sexes, male and female, unless you have some sort of mutation which causes you to be both / neither / both & neither. (think YY)
You are your birth gender - you can be as feminine or masculine as you want, but you are denoted by your sexual organs (unless you have gender reassignment surgery in which you have your sexual organs replaced (I don't know much about this)).
Just my opinion. I dont' want to anger any people.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 26, 2018)

SirNapkin1334 said:


> I'll just say my opinion.
> There are two sexes, male and female, unless you have some sort of mutation which causes you to be both / neither / both & neither. (think YY)
> You are your birth gender - you can be as feminine or masculine as you want, but you are denoted by your sexual organs (unless you have gender reassignment surgery in which you have your sexual organs replaced (I don't know much about this)).
> Just my opinion. I dont' want to anger any people.


I understand where you're coming from, but again, it stems from a misconception about the distinction between biological sex and gender, which is a social construct based on appearance and tendencies


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## SG854 (Apr 26, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> yeah the whole idea behind gender is to simplify communication, I can say her over there and if there is 20 guys and one girl you know exactly who I'm referring to, if you try memorizing every possible shade 99% of people wont know what on earth your talking about if you say "see xir over there" suddenly your words are useless and you have to physically point to exactly what person you mean, and even then that depends on you knowing exactly what silly shade the person identifies with else the calls of bigotry and intolerance start, ill just stick to the tried and tested simple terms that make things easier instead of pointlessly complicated



So if you agree that we don't need 80 different genders the next question is, is gender and sex the same? Definition of gender is something that less has to do with biology and more to do with behevior's and identities. But doesn't biology affect behavior? Autism is a great example of how hormones can affect someones behavior. People that gets more than normal testosterone in the womb is born autistic. And male traits are multiplied to the max. They have difficulties in human interaction and focus more on objects, which is normal for men but not to the extreme of autistics. 

So your behavior and identity is then tied to sex, to hormones, which is a big source of biological differences. So even if the definitions between sex and gender are slightly different, they are both practically the same thing. Which then means gender is not completely a social construct. Traits are moldable with neuroplasticity but only to a certain extent. Like a man can learn to be as good at communication as female, but a man can't grow breasts like women and be completely female. They may take hormones to change to more feminine features but this has its limitations.

Fun Fact
You can analyze right now if you are more masculine by looking at your fingers. If you have a bigger ring finger than index finger than you are more masculine (male). If your ring finger is equal size or smaller than index finger than you are more feminine (female). Women that have a bigger ring finger have more masculine features and traits.


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## Seriel (Apr 26, 2018)

Now for my controversial opinion that may change at any time because that's how humans work.

It is true that each human has a "sex", which is determined at birth and probably can't be changed (Although the UK will allow you to change the sex on your birth certificate if you've been publicly trans for a number of years.)
But in my opinion that shouldn't affect how you address a person. Which is what gender usually ties into.
With regards to pronouns, I go by a "Call them whatever they want you to call them", because it's respectful and you don't harm their emotions with every word you say. This sounds fair enough right? If someone asks you to call them a girl, boy, whatever, you should probably just do it. Mistakes are human, outright refusal to accept someone's wishes is not. If you don't want to run afoul of the "you just assumed my gender??" stuff, neutral terms work well if you're unsure, however I doubt anyone would witch-hunt you for making an assumption and respectfully accepting the correction. It's always when the person refuses to accept the correction and is stubborn where problems arise.

Now let's throw this into the topic of a third gender. Honestly, does it even matter? It's not like we're trying to keep tabs on all these "genders" and make a list of them (Although some people have). If someone asks you to refer to them in a certain way (Be it as agender, genderfluid, or any word they've decided to use), the sensible thing to do would be to just go with that. Respect their wishes, and nobody has a problem.
Now of course there'll be someone who'll bring up the Apache Helicopter meme, and will complain about that. Honestly, anyone who says something like that is probably joking, but if they're honestly serious then what's the harm in respecting it? Everyone is different, and deserves to be addressed however they like.

If you're still reading, an analogy I've thought of on the spot is names. If someone asks to be called by a totally new name (forgetting genders for a second), you wouldn't exactly go "no i want to use your old name forever, you're stuck with it." would you? Then why can't this apply to pronouns and gender and stuff, if someone says "please refer to me with neutral words from now on", just do it. There's no harm, and it keeps everyone happy and civil.
I mean sure if you want to get petty then yeah everyone has a "sex" which they're kinda stuck with, unless you count changing genitals as changing sex (Which I think the UK government does, to the best of my knowledge), in which case good on you. But what you call someone and what genitals they have are two different things. The latter is usually referred to as gender and is tied to specific behavioural characteristics, while I believe its just a way of referring to someone, and people can ask to be called whatever they like, it's their life and their choice.


I will not write a tldr for this huge post because i think you should just read it all, and yes I did focus on ways of addressing people rather than what gender really means, but that's how I see it.

If you're going to reply, I'd ask for you to do it respectfully and calmly (Which most of you seem to be doing), so we can discuss it like adults. Nobody likes someone who flings their opinion at someone as if it was fact. The above is my opinion and mine alone, I will not deny you yours.


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## Zhongtiao1 (Apr 26, 2018)

In my opinion, the main reason people decided to create new genders was because we already weren't open enough about what people were comfortable with.


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## JellyPerson (Apr 26, 2018)

imo if your nether parts extrude, you're male
if they go inside, you're female
ofc you can change genders, but there are only two


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 26, 2018)

SG854 said:


> So if you agree that we don't need 80 different genders the next question is, is gender and sex the same? Definition of gender is something that less has to do with biology and more to do with behevior's and identities. But doesn't biology affect behavior? Autism is a great example of how hormones can affect someones behavior. People that gets more than normal testosterone in the womb is born autistic. And male traits are multiplied to the max. They have difficulties in human interaction and focus more on objects, which is normal for men but not to the extreme of autistics.
> 
> So your behavior and identity is then tied to sex, to hormones, which is a big source of biological differences. So even if the definitions between sex and gender are slightly different, they are both practically the same thing. Which then means gender is not completely a social construct. Traits are moldable with neuroplasticity but only to a certain extent. Like a man can learn to be as good at communication as female, but a man can't grow breasts like women and be completely female. They may take hormones to change to more feminine features but this has its limitations.
> 
> ...


How is the ring finger size a fact? Ya mine is bigger than the index one, but my hands are a weird mix of a female/male hand, and i can have a dick but in reality im not masculine, at all... so i call bullshit


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## Navonod (Apr 26, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I understand where you're coming from, but again, it stems from a misconception about the distinction between biological sex and gender, which is a social construct based on appearance and tendencies


Your biological sex is your gender. How is there a misconception?


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## goldensun87 (Apr 26, 2018)

There are only 2 genders.  You cannot change my mind.


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 26, 2018)

Seriel said:


> Now for my controversial opinion that may change at any time because that's how humans work.
> 
> It is true that each human has a "sex", which is determined at birth and probably can't be changed (Although the UK will allow you to change the sex on your birth certificate if you've been publicly trans for a number of years.)
> But in my opinion that shouldn't affect how you address a person. Which is what gender usually ties into.
> ...


here is the point though, while I feel most will generally agree with your stance, what about if a person totally does not accept your version of reality, to some people sex pretty much = gender, is it not actually unfair for you to expect them to shift their point of view to match yours while you would never just say "oh well that's their point of view I will just accept it", them not agreeing to play by your rules doesn't change how you see things just as yours doesn't/shouldn't be forced upon them

live and let live taken to the ultimate degree, its all good expecting tolerance when it comes to some opinions, why not others?


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## GreatCrippler (Apr 26, 2018)

Milenko said:


> Who cares.



I'm going with this answer. Click Bait thread is click bait.


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## Jacklack3 (Apr 26, 2018)

I seen that video.

Though I think you guys might be missing the point... "There are only two *genders* (not sexes), change my mind." Which (at least on the first page) doesn't seem to be argumented with.


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## DeadlyFoez (Apr 26, 2018)

Well in case you all didn't know...
I am a woman...
But I am not really a woman, I am a horse...
But I am not really a horse, I am a broom.

I dont give a damn what anyone else identifies as or what they do in their personal life as long as it does not negatively affect me or my family. You all can be as loony as you want.


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## Kingy (Apr 26, 2018)

I don't care what people identify themselves as, as long as they're not hurting anybody. But I believe biological sex is tied to gender. Heck, I'd even say they're the same thing, or at least on the same track.


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## Seriel (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> here is the point though, while I feel most will generally agree with your stance, what about if a person totally does not accept your version of reality, to some people sex pretty much = gender, is it not actually unfair for you to expect them to shift their point of view to match yours while you would never just say "oh well that's their point of view I will just accept it", them not agreeing to play by your rules doesn't change how you see things just as yours doesn't/should be forced upon them
> 
> live and let live taken to the ultimate degree, its all good expecting tolerance when it comes to some opinions, why not others?


I think I understand what you're saying (correct me if i'm wrong), in that some people directly think of sex and gender as the same thing, and refuse to adhere to people's chosen pronouns. This is where it gets tetchy within the trans community, because we normally feel offended when people like this decide to not respect our decisions, and any attempt to settle the solution gets heated because neither side wants to accept the other's views. There's no real way to please everyone (Although I'm one of the people who wishes they could), so I can't give a perfect solution here.
But what I would do in such a situation would be to respect their difference of opinion (Bonus points if its explained to me in legible English, most people like that just blab nonsense with no backing, scientific or otherwise). And while I naturally wouldn't be okay with them misgendering me, the fact they took the time to explain why is nice. I can't force everyone to use my perception of reality, as long as they don't be an asshole about it (Which I dont _think_ is forcing my opinion onto theirs, rather hoping to find some common ground and have general decency), then I wouldn't be too fussed. But if you actively go around touting your agenda and blindly insulting everyone who opposes you, that's when I have a problem. I don't go around the internet or real life trying to tell the world about my fancy new theory on gender, I just respect people according to it and hope they respond in kind (Which of course they wont always, but a girl can dream). I only mentioned it today because the topic was brought up, and everyone was sharing their opinion. If you want to follow it then that's cool, if you don't then that's also alright. I can only ask that you hear me out and respect what I have to say.

(I've been considering whether to post this because I'm unsure how I would respond to these situations in practise since I've never come across one, so if this conflicts with anything I've said in the past then I'm sorry for the confusion, and my opinion on this is subject to change in the future.)


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Your biological sex is your gender. How is there a misconception?


Because from a social science perspective that's simply not true, so really you're just proving my point


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## SG854 (Apr 27, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> How is the ring finger size a fact? Ya mine is bigger than the index one, but my hands are a weird mix of a female/male hand, and i can have a dick but in reality im not masculine, at all... so i call bullshit


There are some studies that show 2D:4D ratio is a sexually dimorphic biomarker thats tied to prenatal hormones. And its determined by the HOX A gene. Finger ratio is not only found in humans but also in other species. Some studies I'll link that I know you are not gunna read but I'll link them anyway. It talks controversy and whether or not the 2D:4D ratio is a reliable marker. And how different digit ratios are linked to sex specific behaviors and traits.

This first study is done by Simon Baron-Cohen who is an expert on Prenatal testosterone and Autism. He is the cousin of Ali G (Borat).
https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/vi...le.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1014&context=hpt

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296424/
\https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5337486/
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/319e/b9986bbb89bc0a9fab46e7d908c2d6d2bf1f.pdf
http://www.bioanthrojournal.org/art...me=3;issue=1;spage=10;epage=13;aulast=Okamkpa


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## tbb043 (Apr 27, 2018)

Why would I change your mind? It's 100% true.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 27, 2018)

SG854 said:


> There are some studies that show 2D:4D ratio is a sexually dimorphic biomarker thats tied to prenatal hormones. And its determined by the HOX A gene. Finger ratio is not only found in humans but also in other species. Some studies I'll link that I know you are not gunna read but I'll link them anyway. It talks controversy and whether or not the 2D:4D ratio is a reliable marker. And how different digit ratios are linked to sex specific behaviors and traits.
> 
> This first study is done by Simon Baron-Cohen who is an expert on Prenatal testosterone and Autism. He is the cousin of Ali G (Borat).
> https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/vi...le.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1014&context=hpt
> ...


Yeah, is too much english for a non native english speaker, and im super tired from college to try and traduce a large wall of text.

Just a simple question, the finger thing is just a percentaje and doesnt represent every male, right? Since i state again, i may have a "male ring finger" but im in no way that masculine, or act like a "true" masculine dude, so, that study isnt really representative as a fact of my case.


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## VinsCool (Apr 27, 2018)

Milenko said:


> Who cares.


I know it may be considered kinda rude, but I'd say the same.

Let people be themselves, comfortable with who they are.
Want to have a specific name, pronoun, identity? I can respect that.
I'm not the one to judge here. Be yourself, and enjoy who you are. It's all that matters to me.


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## Navonod (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Because from a social science perspective that's simply not true, so really you're just proving my point


I'm just going off of facts. Not made up imaginary BS.


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## Navonod (Apr 27, 2018)

People are to caught up in being unique not knowing they are already unique in their own way. We shouldn't have to make up a gender spectrum to feel special or noticed. We also shouldn't have to redefine words for the same reason. And I shouldn't have to be forced to change my vocabulary. Even though you could argue that I do need a better vocabulary. It's fine to feel different we all do in some way. And respect goes both ways we have to respect each other on how we feel and find a common ground instead of making it complicated.


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

Seriel said:


> I think I understand what you're saying (correct me if i'm wrong), in that some people directly think of sex and gender as the same thing, and refuse to adhere to people's chosen pronouns. This is where it gets tetchy within the trans community, because we normally feel offended when people like this decide to not respect our decisions, and any attempt to settle the solution gets heated because neither side wants to accept the other's views. There's no real way to please everyone (Although I'm one of the people who wishes they could), so I can't give a perfect solution here.
> But what I would do in such a situation would be to respect their difference of opinion (Bonus points if its explained to me in legible English, most people like that just blab nonsense with no backing, scientific or otherwise). And while I naturally wouldn't be okay with them misgendering me, the fact they took the time to explain why is nice. I can't force everyone to use my perception of reality, as long as they don't be an asshole about it (Which I dont _think_ is forcing my opinion onto theirs, rather hoping to find some common ground and have general decency), then I wouldn't be too fussed. But if you actively go around touting your agenda and blindly insulting everyone who opposes you, that's when I have a problem. I don't go around the internet or real life trying to tell the world about my fancy new theory on gender, I just respect people according to it and hope they respond in kind (Which of course they wont always, but a girl can dream). I only mentioned it today because the topic was brought up, and everyone was sharing their opinion. If you want to follow it then that's cool, if you don't then that's also alright. I can only ask that you hear me out and respect what I have to say.
> 
> (I've been considering whether to post this because I'm unsure how I would respond to these situations in practise since I've never come across one, so if this conflicts with anything I've said in the past then I'm sorry for the confusion, and my opinion on this is subject to change in the future.)


nice to see a rational response I know often its more combative, but yeah I feel like if someone simply doesn't accept that men can become women then so be it, forcing them to pretend otherwise or face harassment from the other side is just as bad if not worse than just saying sorry I don't agree with this stuff and I will stick to what I'm comfortable with thanks

if trans/nonbinary etc people can just accept not everyone shares their views well then maybe being miss-gendered wont be such a big deal, it all just boils down to opinions and them thinking something else doesn't make or break what you feel yourself or at least it shouldn't, and surely you would prefer to know people are saying things because they respect you and not out of fear of backlash for their opinions, this is surely just going to foster bad feelings that didn't need to occur

truth is maybe if you just still talk to them and treat them nice despite the difference of opinion over time they might come to like and respect you at which point they might feel more comfortable just complying out of respect/friendship rather than belief, who knows maybe them being close might actually open their minds to the possibility they were wrong, but getting all grump and demanding they change isn't going to make them like the idea any more


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I'm just going off of facts. Not made up imaginary BS.


No, what you're doing is making your worldview fit previous experiences (or lack thereof) that you see as fact while rejecting anything that doesn't fit that

Give this a read: https://www.simplypsychology.org/gender-biology.html


gamesquest1 said:


> nice to see a rational response I know often its more combative, but yeah I feel like if someone simply doesn't accept that men can become women then so be it, forcing them to pretend otherwise or face harassment from the other side is just as bad if not worse than just saying sorry I don't agree with this stuff and I will stick to what I'm comfortable with thanks
> 
> if trans/nonbinary etc people can just accept not everyone shares their views well then maybe being miss-gendered wont be such a big deal, it all just boils down to opinions and them thinking something else doesn't make or break what you feel yourself or at least it shouldn't, and surely you would prefer to know people are saying things because they respect you and not out of fear of backlash for their opinions, this is surely just going to foster bad feelings that didn't need to occur


When you're dealing with interfacing with another human being and you tell them that their orientation or preferred pronouns are invalid and you intentionally choose to disrespect them, it's no longer a difference of opinion, it's being a dick on a very personal level

I'm honestly confused that what you took away from @Seriel's post was "we need to respect other's views" rather than "we need to respect other people"


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## linuxares (Apr 27, 2018)

Isn't gender a human thing? Since it doesn't really seem to exist anywhere else?


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## Navonod (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> No, what you're doing is making your worldview fit previous experiences (or lack thereof) that you see as fact while rejecting anything that doesn't fit that


Trust me I tried. It makes no sense to have a gender spectrum. You're gender is male or female biologically and you're either straight, gay, bi, or no sexual preferences/ none sexual.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



linuxares said:


> Isn't gender a human thing? Since it doesn't really seem to exist anywhere else?


Animals have genitals to.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Trust me I tried. It makes no sense to have a gender spectrum. You're gender is male or female biologically and you're either straight, gay, bi, or no sexual preferences/ none sexual.


Read my edit with the link. And again I'll state, even if you don't believe in a gender spectrum, you have to at least acknowledge that there are people that wish to present as androgynous, which is a trait that is encompassed by the "nonbinary" identity, as a "middle of the road" or non-gender


DrGreed said:


> Animals have genitals to.


My guy. Gender =/= sex. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.


linuxares said:


> Isn't gender a human thing? Since it doesn't really seem to exist anywhere else?


Not strictly true, think of a pack of lions where the females hunt and the males... do whatever they do. There have, however, been instances of females growing manes, as well as males mating (not having sexual relations, just partnering) with other males, while one hunts


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> No, what you're doing is making your worldview fit previous experiences (or lack thereof) that you see as fact while rejecting anything that doesn't fit that
> 
> Give this a read: https://www.simplypsychology.org/gender-biology.html
> 
> ...


I think I will let them speak for themselves, from what I gathered they seem to be fairly rational and can accept people don't hold the same beliefs, I don't see how demanding people think and say something they don't believe is being respectful to people either, your just doing the exact same thing but from the other side


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## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

So if I think there are only 2 genders I am hurting other peoples feelings? Tough shit.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> I think I will let them speak for themselves, from what I gathered they seem to be fairly rational and can accept people don't hold the same beliefs, I don't see how demanding people think and say something they don't believe is being respectful to people either, your just doing the exact same thing but from the other side


Ok, let's consult a few people, then

@Seriel and/or @Lilith Valentine, how would either of you FEEL if someone deliberately misgendered you in a public setting, and then compared to that how would you react, and why? For the sake of the argument, let's say one instance with someone you know relatively well and another with someone you're acquainted with, but don't know much about

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



cots said:


> So if I think there are only 2 genders I am hurting other peoples feelings? Tough shit.


Oof, you sure showed us


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## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> I think I will let them speak for themselves, from what I gathered they seem to be fairly rational and can accept people don't hold the same beliefs, I don't see how demanding people think and say something they don't believe is being respectful to people either, your just doing the exact same thing but from the other side



No. It's okay for them to behave the same exact way as long as their cause is some current trend. That makes it okay. Didn't you know?


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ok, let's consult a few people, then
> 
> @Seriel and/or @Lilith Valentine, how would either of you FEEL if someone deliberately misgendered you in a public setting, and then compared to that how would you react, and why? For the sake of the argument, let's say one instance with someone you know relatively well and another with someone you're acquainted with, but don't know much about
> 
> ...


again would you be upset if you were trans and were forced to identify a different way because the person your talking to doesn't agree? how about if the person your talking to thinks the earth is flat?....should you just play along and describe the flat earth so as to not upset them....should you be shamed for refusing to believe what they believe?

I'm sure a flat earther would be sad if you don't agree with them, but it doesn't have to be the end of the world


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> again would you be upset if you were trans and were forced to identify a different way because the person your talking to doesn't agree? how about if the person your talking to thinks the earth is flat?....should you just play along and describe the flat earth so as to not upset them....should you be shamed for refusing to believe what they believe?


*sigh* ok, imagine this. You get a legal name change. Someone you know walks up to you and calls you by your old name a few times. What do you do?


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> *sigh* ok, imagine this. You get a legal name change. Someone you know walks up to you and calls you by your old name a few times. What do you do?


honestly not care that much, I chose to change my name, I cant help if people know my old name, sure I might try correct them but if for example my mother said "sorry you will always be tom to me"....well then that's her choice, I wouldn't throw her under the bus and stop talking to her over it

a good example is a guy I knew who was from spain and he always called me a weird miss pronunciation of my real name, sure at first I tried to correct him, but then I just figured....ok that's how he talks I'm being a dick to keep correcting him


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> honestly not care that much, I chose to change my name, I cant help if people know my old name, sure I might try correct them but if for example my mother said "sorry you will always be tom to me"....well then that's her choice, I wouldn't throw her under the bus and stop talking to her over it


Now that's interesting. You went to all the trouble of changing your name and you'd be fine with people deliberately calling you by your old one? I can understand people slipping accidentally, but to me that'd be incredibly rude, if someone deliberately called me by my old name because they felt they knew better than I did what I wanted to be called


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## FAST6191 (Apr 27, 2018)

My understanding then.
Sex. For the most part the XX, XY chromosome thing. As ridiculous as it feels to have to state it then this has profound effects on physical things and mental things, some however appear to be of the opinion that has no effect beyond what sexual organs you have... science says no.
Gender. The sex your head reckons it is. For the most part this aligns with sex, not sure why this is (clearly if the world was all gay then reproductive pressures and all that) but hey.

If your head reckons it is the opposite one then it could well be a seriously troubling. Somewhat mirroring missing limbs and an awareness of the deficits caused by a brain injury. "true" sex change does seem to be the domain of either mind transplants or high end genetic engineering. However much like said missing limbs able to be helped with mirror/VR therapy then if you want to have your genitals refashioned and various pieces of silicone injected, as well as do hormones, talking to medics... then I can see very positive medical effects, ones way in excess of the risks.
While I can see a path to it being "from birth/as long as I can remember" (if nothing else there is some fairly compelling evidence of the differences between sexes in newborn babies -- https://www.math.kth.se/matstat/gru/5b1501/F/sex.pdf ) it is also something that grows. How such things want to be handled I do not know, though obviously positive outcomes and all that.
Sexuality is another one that sees phrases like "from birth/as long as I can remember" appear, and there are some biological correlations (number of kids your grandmother had, twins, hormones in the womb...) but I have not yet see any real studies on this, it is however not my field so share if you have them.

I see no moral reason to oppose changing in adults. Owing to efficacy of change techniques then changing in children I can easily see a path to as well, possibly also to the point of overriding parental wishes. Given the profound nature of suffering that may result from it this would extend to insurance and government funded healthcare footing the bill. As it stands I am in favour of the approaches where you have to do hormones, live as for an extended duration, receive extensive counselling.... sort of thing. Specifics of those may stand to be changed but the idea underpinning it all is good. To take it back to the sci fi future DNA twiddling/mind swapping machine I am not sure where that would end up, equally I am not sure where this would change things for children as well (if change is easy then waiting becomes viable, on the other hand there is still the scope for suffering).
Toilets/bathrooms is a red herring/distraction issue from where I sit. If for some reason you do feel compelled to enforce toilets then the approaches favoured above will be a suitable delineation -- if you are demonstrably heading down that path then good enough for me.
Official documents can be changed, same standards (or some point along the course).
"Changing back" may also want to be similarly involved.

Speaking of morality. I find no particular evidence of any differences in moral characteristics, intellectual capabilities and the like, certainly not a particularly useful factor in judging someone's worth. The suicide rate is an interesting one, one I reckon may be largely explained by systemic causes (possible control factor/regression test being similarly maligned groups in society) than a biological one. It would also mean I extend similar "you can't not hire, fire because, not rent to, not sell too..." laws to those that are covered by this.

From what I can see the "gender is a spectrum" discussion is often miscast, or at least starts from a fundamentally broken premise or false equivalence to other aspects of psychology that get considered spectrums. If nothing else I would immediately make it a two scale concept -- male female and how much you care -- it would then be possible to be a male in a female body but not actually give a flying fuck (the gender equivalent of asexuality if you will).

I have seen people vary their gender daily. These were people with heavy dementia that jumped between different time periods in their lives. I can't rule out there being variability of that level in a "normal" person but I can't see most that claim it actually having it and that does a serious disservice to things.
I have also seen people where they are right on the edge of which combination they might be happier as decide to switch back.

On pronouns. Misusing, even intentionally, is not a reason to end up in front of a judge, slapped with a fine or the like. Intentionally might be reason to be fired or expelled but it should probably be hard to do that if it is an option. Those that would want to call it violence have no idea what violence is. It is a perfectly adequate reason to be called a dick though.
English recognises three genders in words, albeit with far less grammatical baggage than in the likes of French or Russian, and many more personal titles (sir, dr, prof, rev, lady, dame, miss, mrs, ms...) which may also vary with gender. The neutral thing has long been considered impersonal, largely reserved for collectives/groupings, or even serving to remove a measure of personhood/humanity (see also "it") which can cause problems here.

If someone would like to explain where my understanding and reasonings given above fall short I would be grateful.


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## Navonod (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Read my edit with the link. And again I'll state, even if you don't believe in a gender spectrum, you have to at least acknowledge that there are people that wish to present as androgynous, which is a trait that is encompassed by the "nonbinary" identity, as a "middle of the road" or non-gender
> 
> My guy. Gender =/= sex. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
> 
> Not strictly true, think of a pack of lions where the females hunt and the males... do whatever they do. There have, however, been instances of females growing manes, as well as males mating (not having sexual relations, just partnering) with other males, while one hunts


No I get the concept. Really easy to grasp. Doesn't make any sense though.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> No I get the concept. Really easy to grasp. Doesn't make any sense though.


Hm. What are you having trouble with, then? Maybe I can explain something you're missing


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ok, let's consult a few people, then
> 
> @Seriel and/or @Lilith Valentine, how would either of you FEEL if someone deliberately misgendered you in a public setting, and then compared to that how would you react, and why? For the sake of the argument, let's say one instance with someone you know relatively well and another with someone you're acquainted with, but don't know much abouts


I am literally always misgendered, be it deliberate or not and never really stops hurting. In some cases I've gotten used to people doing it, but it doesn't make it any better for me. In most cases I am basically not allowed to react, sure I can and have, but it's always some excuse like, "Oh it's just their opinion" or "Don't be so sensitive." Actually really all of my friends are extremely accepting people, but during the old days I tended to politely correct them. Anyone who continued to be rude to me weren't worth keeping around.


gamesquest1 said:


> again would you be upset if you were trans and were forced to identify a different way because the person your talking to doesn't agree? how about if the person your talking to thinks the earth is flat?....should you just play along and describe the flat earth so as to not upset them....should you be shamed for refusing to believe what they believe?
> 
> I'm sure a flat earther would be sad if you don't agree with them, but it doesn't have to be the end of the world


Actually being forced to identify as male and by my old name for so long nearly killed and in fact caused several attempts on my own life. You want to perpose a hypothetical question as someone who isn't trans, but quite honestly don't know what it means to live this life. Coupled with reality that people choosing to be transphobic are basically terrible people who are choosing to hurt other people for the sake of their own misguided believes.

On topic, "There is only 2 genders," is a meme and not a fact. If someone were to base gender on sex, then intersex shows that there is indeed more than 2 sexes and thus more than 2 genders. Gender is also not sex, but I would be repeating the same argument brought up multiple times through out this thread.


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## WeedZ (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Ok, let's consult a few people, then
> 
> @Seriel and/or @Lilith Valentine, how would either of you FEEL if someone deliberately misgendered you in a public setting, and then compared to that how would you react, and why? For the sake of the argument, let's say one instance with someone you know relatively well and another with someone you're acquainted with, but don't know much about
> 
> ...


Thats pretty fucking rude @TotalInsanity4, just saying. You're going single out people that may or may not want to be put on the spot in such a sensitive debate just to prove a point? First of all, they may not want the attention given in this thread by the hostile types they are probably trying to avoid. Secondly, they aren't the authority on gender, just as one minority man's opinion isn't the authority on racism. Thirdly, not all trans people believe in the non-binary nonsense. They identify as female, not fucking rainbow unicorn age kinned dragons or whatever.


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## Chary (Apr 27, 2018)

So long as you're not stomping around trying to convince people you're a neon green half cat half human non gendered animalkin, I don't really care. You do you. 

Two genders, fifty genders, does it really matter to trying to convince others? Chances are, if you have a set opinion on the matter, it's going to be unlikely to change, no matter the arguments for or against such. Some people believe there's a range, others think there's only a set A or B option. It really comes down to how one feels personally on the matter.


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## Navonod (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Hm. What are you having trouble with, then? Maybe I can explain something you're missing


The whole idea you could just claim a gender just because. I'm white but what if I wanted to claim to be Japanese? Would that be okay?


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## WeedZ (Apr 27, 2018)

Chary said:


> So long as you're not stomping around trying to convince people you're a neon green half cat half human non gendered animalkin, I don't really care. You do you.
> 
> Two genders, fifty genders, does it really matter to trying to convince others? Chances are, if you have a set opinion on the matter, it's going to be unlikely to change, no matter the arguments for or against such. Some people believe there's a range, others think there's only a set A or B option. It really comes down to how one feels personally on the matter.


Of course it matters. Getting validation from others is the whole point of being special. Their "genders" are only as real as others believe they are. If its just them that beleive it, then they are just nut cases. Sanity is subjective to society's standard. That's why we have to redefine words and shit.


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am literally always misgendered, be it deliberate or not and never really stops hurting. In some cases I've gotten used to people doing it, but it doesn't make it any better for me. In most cases I am basically not allowed to react, sure I can and have, but it's always some excuse like, "Oh it's just their opinion" or "Don't be so sensitive." Actually really all of my friends are extremely accepting people, but during the old days I tended to politely correct them. Anyone who continued to be rude to me weren't worth keeping around.
> 
> Actually being forced to identify as male and by my old name for so long nearly killed and in fact caused several attempts on my own life. You want to perpose a hypothetical question as someone who isn't trans, but quite honestly don't know what it means to live this life. Coupled with reality that people choosing to be transphobic are basically terrible people who are choosing to hurt other people for the sake of their own misguided believes.
> 
> On topic, "There is only 2 genders," is a meme and not a fact. If someone were to base gender on sex, then intersex shows that there is indeed more than 2 sexes and thus more than 2 genders. Gender is also not sex, but I would be repeating the same argument brought up multiple times through out this thread.


while I can sympathise with your feelings the flat earther analogy is fair I guess, now imagine if flat earthers had a high suicide rate whenever they encounter people who just openly discuss the round earth, sure its tragic and sad and many people would advocate for people to stop talking about the round earth to help them but this was my point to you,  your the round earther and they are the flat earthers, but to them the roles are reversed, your the flat earther and your asking them to deny their reality to make you feel better

again, I will always try to use pronouns that match how someone is presenting, I'm just saying I can understand the rational of those who have an opposing view, and once things get into 71 genders and stuff most people just think "fuck this shit I'm going back to 2 genders"

PS sorry you got dragged into this, hope you the best of luck with your life and I wouldn't wish harm on anyone, I was not saying that being misgendered wouldn't be upsetting, I'm just saying that those doing the misgendering might simply hold a different view and coming to terms with that and not just assuming they are doing it to hurt you might give a little bit of peace of mind that they aren't just trying to upset you malicious

that said if gender does not determine sex, then what does it matter to a trans person to be miss-gendered, if a gender role is effectively just a societal construct it would effectively be like calling a banker a plumber as the gender is independent to your perceived sex


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

WeedZ said:


> Thats pretty fucking rude @TotalInsanity4, just saying. You're going single out people that may or may not want to be put on the spot in such a sensitive debate just to prove a point?


I realized that shortly after sending it but left it up because I'd rather be genuine, although I'll take it down if asked. My reasoning for tagging Seriel is that she's already participated in the thread on a similar topic, and I tagged Lilith Valentine for reasons I've communicated to her. Thank you for calling me out, though, I definitely deserved it


> Secondly, they aren't the authority on gender, just as one minority man's opinion isn't the authority on racism.


I do hope that's not what you thought I was trying to communicate, because it wasn't. I was trying to bring people with personal experience into the conversation because I'm quite frankly tired of a bunch of cis guys (and a few gals) talking about stuff they've had no personal experience dealing with, myself included


> Thirdly, not all trans people believe in the non-binary nonsense. They identify as female, not fucking rainbow unicorn age kinned dragons or whatever.


That's not what was being discussed at the time, but _that's_ a bit rude now yourself, especially to conflate a non-binary identity with a "kin" identity


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I realized that shortly after sending it but left it up because I'd rather be genuine, although I'll take it down if asked. My reasoning for tagging Seriel is that she's already participated in the thread on a similar topic, and I tagged Lilith Valentine for reasons I've communicated to her. Thank you for calling me out, though, I definitely deserved it
> 
> I do hope that's not what you thought I was trying to communicate, because it wasn't. I was trying to bring people with personal experience into the conversation because I'm quite frankly tired of a bunch of cis guys (and a few gals) talking about stuff they've had no personal experience dealing with, myself included
> 
> That's not what was being discussed at the time, but _that's_ a bit rude now yourself, especially to conflate a non-binary identity with a "kin" identity


did you just assume most peoples gender and sexual orientation....tut tut


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## WeedZ (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> That's not what was being discussed at the time, but _that's_ a bit rude now yourself, *especially to conflate a non-binary identity with a "kin" identity*



I am obviously way out of my element. Pardon me, I'm just going to watch the world implode from over here.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> did you just assume most peoples gender and sexual orientation....tut tut


No, actually, I did quite literally the opposite


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> No, actually, I did quite literally the opposite





TotalInsanity4 said:


> I was trying to bring people with personal experience into the conversation because *I'm quite frankly tired of a bunch of cis guys (and a few gals) talking about stuff they've had no personal experience dealing with*, myself included


seems like an assumption to me


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> while I can sympathise with your feelings the flat earther analogy is fair I guess, now imagine if flat earthers had a high suicide rate whenever they encounter people who just openly discuss the round earth, sure its tragic and sad and many people would advocate for people to stop talking about the round earth to help them but this was my point to you,  your the round earther and they are the flat earthers, but to them the roles are reversed, your the flat earther and your asking them to deny their reality to make you feel better
> 
> again, I will always try to use pronouns that match how someone is presenting, I'm just saying I can understand the rational of those who have an opposing view, and once things get into 71 genders and stuff most people just think "fuck this shit I'm going back to 2 genders"
> 
> PS sorry you got dragged into this, hope you the best of luck with your life and I wouldn't wish harm on anyone, I was not saying that being misgendered wouldn't be upsetting, I'm just saying that those doing the misgendering might simply hold a different view and coming to terms with that and not just assuming they are doing it to hurt you might give a little bit of peace of mind that they aren't just trying to upset you maliciously


Your analogy is comparing a group of people who ignore obvious evidence against them to a group of people who have evidence in their favor, but are attacked every single day just for literally walking down the street. I'm sorry, but flat eathers aren't killed for simply living, they are mocked for having ridiculous believes, that's why the analogy simply doesn't work for me.
I don't care for the massive list of genders, I believe gender is on a spectrum, but too many of the genders are a rebrand of another gender. At the same time I don't care because someone else's life has no effect on me and I have no reason to let it effect me. 
I honestly really wanted to avoid this thread for obvious reasons. I don't accuse everyone have having malicious intend, in fact most just simply don't know enough on the topic. I've met countless people who didn't "believe" in the trans community who later changed their mind after actually meeting someone who is trans. Education is the best way to fight ignorance. What does upset is people who go out of their way to be hateful because of their own misguided believes, the kind who actually go out of their way to be malicious. I've run into those kinds and a lot of them aimed to ruin me simply because I am trans and they quickly started have real effects on my life. Those are people who are truly damaging and respecting their "believes" only enables them to continue to be damaging.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> seems like an assumption to me


Oh, that

Yeah I guess I did, but I can make a pretty darn educated guess based on the views expressed. Plus in that statement I in no way singled any particular person out, it was a generalized statement


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Your analogy is comparing a group of people who ignore obvious evidence against them to a group of people who have evidence in their favor, but are attacked every single day just for literally walking down the street. I'm sorry, but flat eathers aren't killed for simply living, they are mocked for having ridiculous believes, that's why the analogy simply doesn't work for me.
> I don't care for the massive list of genders, I believe gender is on a spectrum, but too many of the genders are a rebrand of another gender. At the same time I don't care because someone else's life has no effect on me and I have no reason to let it effect me.
> I honestly really wanted to avoid this thread for obvious reasons. I don't accuse everyone have having malicious intend, in fact most just simply don't know enough on the topic. I've met countless people who didn't "believe" in the trans community who later changed their mind after actually meeting someone who is trans. Education is the best way to fight ignorance. What does upset is people who go out of their way to be hateful because of their own misguided believes, the kind who actually go out of their way to be malicious. I've run into those kinds and a lot of them aimed to ruin me simply because I am trans and they quickly started have real effects on my life. Those are people who are truly damaging and respecting their "believes" only enables them to continue to be damaging.


yeah I made this point earlier in the thread that actually persisting and integrating with people who don't automatically share your beliefs is better than just isolating yourself to only believers, I like to see myself as in the middle, I see and understand both side and both sides have their points, its better to discuss and debate than divide and hurl abuse at each other


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## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

So I'm rude, don't really give a shit about other peoples opinions, don't really care if I offend someone, don't really care about other peoples feelings. Does that make me a bad person? Do now I deserve to be treated the same exact way you claim people like me are treating you? Should I set all of my beliefs and values aside because some vocal minority can't deal with shit? Well, I'm stronger then that. Call me what you may. Life isn't all fucking peach trees and lemonade. Teaching kids on how not to deal with their feelings in a productive way leads to things like them confusing 2 genders or shooting up schools because they properly can't deal with stuff.


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

gamesquest1 said:


> yeah I made this point earlier in the thread that actually persisting and integrating with people who don't automatically share your beliefs is better than just isolating yourself to only believers


In real life I tend to be much more willing to work with people because I can have an actual personal conversation with them. Most hatred is created out two things, fear and ignorance. Anonymity and mass posting online often only gets heated because there's no face to the posts and thus people can't actually gauge the effects of their actions. Which is actually why I avoid these kinds of threads because there's no real effects on anyone and often just end up being the same debate cycled over and over again until the thread is locked.


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## x65943 (Apr 27, 2018)

Don't know if it's been posted here yet, but not gonna read 7 pages to see if someone's made this point.

There are no genders. There are two sexes, but there is no such thing as gender. It's a social construct.

For gender to exist you would need to show inherent behaviors were present in all members of a sex across every culture. This is not the case. Women and Men are culturally conditioned to wear certain clothes, play with certain toys etc.

Now it's true the brain exhibits differences between males and females to a certain extent. This is called a SEXUAL difference, not a gender difference.

I think the term transgender is flawed. I would use the term intersex. But I would open the term to include all manifestations of sex including genitals and neurological abnormalities. 

Disclaimer: You could use gender to explain only neurological differences, but I believe you are unnecessarily splitting a term apart. 

Bottom line. Men should be able to wear whatever they want. There should be no stigma for those who want to wear makeup or use different pronouns. It's all cultural hoo-hah that didn't exist in our evolution. If a woman wants to wear pants or take hormones - who cares?

Some of us are born with certain physical and mental differences - and some of us aren't and just want to wear cute underwear. Does it matter? No. 

This transgender "debate" wouldn't even be an issue if people stopped caring about how other people lived their lives.

And the bathroom debate? As far as I'm concerned it's like segregation in the south. The future is going to think it's fucked up we had separate facilities for men and women - just like they had separate facilities for white and black. We need to stop treating people differently regardless of what their junk or mri looks like.

And what about being a fireman or other gendered jobs? Simple - have a strength test. If the job requires brawn then only hire those who have the muscles. Not dissimilar from how some jobs require IQ tests.


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## SAIYAN48 (Apr 27, 2018)

Well you either have a dick or you don't.


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## orangy57 (Apr 27, 2018)

I think having a different gender than your biological sex is _kinda_ backwards. Like people have been trying for years to get rid of all the gender roles in our society, but then you have guys that inherently feel like a girl, and vice versa, which doesn't make sense. Like what makes you feel like a girl and want to be defined by a different gender? Like if they say it's because they feel more feminine by nature, that's just conforming to said gender roles. Like a biological girl doesn't have to say that they're a male, because you can just act like one and be a lesbian, because being more masculine or feminine just enforces the ingrained gender roles that people have tried for so long to remove from society. It's just so contradictory that it doesn't really make sense for them to exist


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## jahrs (Apr 27, 2018)

I think nearly everything is just an attempt to make ones self feel more special in a society that demeans nearly anyone who doesnt fit the standard. because if you cant be the most amazing and important straight person or gay person then you can be the most important necroxenophoric person and no one can tell you otherwise because then its something(phobic) and can be seen as bullying. honestly i dont think gender or sexual orientation should matter for things outside the bedroom. i will treat you as should others the same regardless of what you do in the bedroom and honestly i dont wanna know or care what that is. same with religion and racism, if i dont ask dont tell me because i dont care because people are not their beliefs. they are there actions so if you dont hurt me then i can chill with you any day regardless as to what crazy shit you believe or do when im not around.


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## x65943 (Apr 27, 2018)

I just have to say I'm always surprised by how far right the people of this website lean. 

I guess it shouldn't be surprising considering there are a lot of americans here, and 1/5 of americans think that transgenderism is a mental illness and 2/5 believe that it's a choice.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 27, 2018)

x65943 said:


> I just have to say I'm always surprised by how far right the people of this website lean.
> 
> I guess it shouldn't be surprising considering there are a lot of americans here, and 1/5 of americans think that transgenderism is a mental illness and 2/5 believe that it's a choice.


Yeah, it has been stated before that gbatemp's most users are ultra right conservatives... then you have some that are still conservatives but open minded, then you have the few exceptions that really dont care about stuff and then the rest is just liberal. Pretty lame if you ask me... although i believe there is nothing wrong with being in whatever side of politics beliefs, but it gets wrong when you know there have been abuses, mocks and discrimination to users here before, and im still suprised that this kind of behavior is still going arround...

Also, loved the part when you mention men should wear whatever they want, panties are the best fucking underwears ever made, male undies sucks


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## SG854 (Apr 27, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Yeah, is too much english for a non native english speaker, and im super tired from college to try and traduce a large wall of text.
> 
> Just a simple question, the finger thing is just a percentaje and doesnt represent every male, right? Since i state again, i may have a "male ring finger" but im in no way that masculine, or act like a "true" masculine dude, so, that study isnt really representative as a fact of my case.



*No  - Short answer *
It doesn't represent every male


Whenever it comes to studies a good thing to know is that they are usually an average, something most people have, but not every person has. And you can never rely on 1 study either. Thats bad science. You need multiple. The Baron-Cohen one for example doesn't show digit ratio distinct enough to be significant, but some difference in the left hand when significance is not taken into account. This leads to failure to reject the null hypothesis (no difference between fingers of male and female). But at the end he concluded it could be a problem with the methods of how they measured it, and that there needs to be another study that uses a different more precise method of measuring and a bigger sample size.

I linked a mix of studies which shows significance and little significance. So its up to you to decide. And you can't just rely on the few studies I linked either for good science. You need moar, and there are dozens of studies on this 1 specific topic. Research and science is fun isn't it? I personally haven't looked at enough studies to tell you a definitive answer. But I will say that from what I read there is correlation. You may think you don't not fall in typical male things but that could be your misunderstanding of what male behaviors are. And how far of extremes you have to go for it to be consider a masculine or feminine way of doing things, since men and women pretty much do many things that are the same, and have many of the same capabilities of learning.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 27, 2018)

SG854 said:


> *No  - Short answer *
> It doesn't represent every male
> 
> 
> ...


Could probably give a read to those links one of these days.

And well, idk really, i think im not really into "normal" or common masculine behavior, not at all, but i also dont act femenine, at least in public... sometimes i think i just belong to that uncommon, weird grey area...


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## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Could probably give a read to those links one of these days.
> 
> And well, idk really, i think im not really into "normal" or common masculine behavior, not at all, but i also dont act femenine, at least in public... sometimes i think i just belong to that uncommon, weird grey area...



If you want to act feminine in public then why don't you? Don't let some asshole talking shit stop you. Simply stand up for yourself.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 27, 2018)

cots said:


> If you want to act feminine in public then why don't you? Don't let some asshole talking shit stop you. Simply stand up for yourself.


Is not really for that reason. Is more like that im neutral in a lot of stuff i do, just because that's how i am. If i want to act feminine i just prefer to do it alone or with a partner with it being consensual.


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I don't care for the massive list of genders, I believe gender is on a spectrum, but too many of the genders are a rebrand of another gender. At the same time I don't care because someone else's life has no effect on me and I have no reason to let it effect me.


I would like to add a note to this because reading it over, I felt like I could have worded it better. I am in no way intending to invalidate, belittle, nor degrade any gender indenity. What I was trying to say was some, for example Two-Spirits and bigender, are basically the same, just different cultural takes on them. This does not make either of them invalid, just stating my take on them. I can be wrong on my interpretation, which I am willing to correct if that is thw case.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I would like to add a note to this because reading it over, I felt like I could have worded it better. I am in no way intending to invalidate, belittle, nor degrade any gender indenity. What I was trying to say was some, for example Two-Spirits and bigender, are basically the same, just different cultural takes on them. This does not make either of them invalid, just stating my take on them. I can be wrong on my interpretation, which I am willing to correct if that is thw case.


It didn't come across as that way, at least not to me

However, it's interesting that you mention two-spirited, because before I looked into it I thought the same thing, but it's actually its own separate identity (with good reason). It all goes back to various Native American sacred practices and beliefs, basically, as the ultra-short version. I would, however, definitely give the hairy eyeball to any non-Native that says they identify as two-spirited, for that exact reason


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## DeadlyFoez (Apr 27, 2018)

The idea that "gender" is a social construct is debatable, proven by that we are debating it. "Gender Identity" is completely different. We really need to make a better term for this.

The fact of the matter is that 2 decades ago, this issue was not in the forefront. I will agree that many people for centuries have had a gender identity crisis. Many of them became confused about whether they were gay, a person in the opposite sex's body, or just suffering from trauma. There was no social acceptable norm for this.

It has become more prevalent over this past decade because now it has become trendy for people to desire to follow their peers in their quest for gender identity. Unfortunately, this mindset is leaking into the minds of children that are not mature enough to understand the outcome of the actions of taking hormones and gender reassignment surgeries.

I find it appalling that people want to embrace a "gender identity crisis" of a young person. Enabling that will only open more mental health issues in the long run. I believe a child feeling this way should be able to go through therapy to help them understand themselves, but any hormone treatments or gender reassignment surgeries should be constrained to those that are adults. Hell, you are not allowed to smoke, buy lottery tickets, drink, join the military, or even legally be in a binding contract because we understand that children are far too young to make these possible life altering choices. But here we are allowing children to take hormones and other bullshit.

There is one transgender person (i forget the name but I am sure someone will fill me in) that wanted to become a female. This person, for one reason or another, ended up not going through with the surgery. The doctors had to inform this child that because of the hormone treatments, he/she/it will never have a mature penis. Last documentary that I saw about this person was that they deeply regretted going on this venture, but they had already permanently changed their ability to grow up in a normal way.

I have more to say, but I want to see the replies I get first.


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## CosmoCortney (Apr 27, 2018)

xx, xy, xxy, x0, xxxy


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## osaka35 (Apr 27, 2018)

DeadlyFoez said:


> The idea that "gender" is a social construct is debatable, proven by that we are debating it. "Gender Identity" is completely different. We really need to make a better term for this.


That's really silly. If someone argues for a different position, then it is therefore a valid position? The amount of people arguing doesn't establish validity, just that a certain amount of people think/feel a certain way. Loads of people think the earth is flat. They have no validity, just ignorance. When you argue from a position of ignorance, your position is not a valid one. Gender is about expression and perception. This includes how one perceives one's self. but the terms can be conflated a lot and it can get confusing, I agree.



DeadlyFoez said:


> It has become more prevalent over this past decade because now it has become trendy for people to desire to follow their peers in their quest for gender identity. Unfortunately, this mindset is leaking into the minds of children that are not mature enough to understand the outcome of the actions of taking hormones and gender reassignment surgeries.
> 
> I find it appalling that people want to embrace a "gender identity crisis" of a young person. Enabling that will only open more mental health issues in the long run. I believe a child feeling this way should be able to go through therapy to help them understand themselves, but any hormone treatments or gender reassignment surgeries should be constrained to those that are adults. Hell, you are not allowed to smoke, buy lottery tickets, drink, join the military, or even legally be in a binding contract because we understand that children are far too young to make these possible life altering choices. But here we are allowing children to take hormones and other bullshit.
> 
> ...



The problem is if you wait until adult-hood, then the damage of being forced to live inside a body that you don't feel is yours is potentially incredibly psychologically damaging. That, and it's far far easier to transition when you're young and your body hasn't gone through it's long cycle of change at puberty. But I agree, a professional should discuss and assess the situation with a youngling before such things happen, but it could be far more dangerous to mental health to legally require them to wait. Why wait? Let the experts handle it, not politicians or other non-experts.

And yes, conformity is a strong force...but conformity tends to go the other way. What your saying is like saying there are all these kids coming out of the closet that aren't actually gay, but are just doing it because they think that's what cool people do and they saw it on TV. How often do you think that'd actually happen?


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## DeadlyFoez (Apr 27, 2018)

osaka35 said:


> That's really silly. If someone argues for a different position, then it is therefore a valid position? The amount of people arguing doesn't establish validity, just that a certain amount of people think/feel a certain way. Loads of people think the earth is flat.


That is apples to oranges. Gender is debatable, the earth being flat is just ignorance.



osaka35 said:


> They have no validity, just ignorance. When you argue from a position of ignorance, your position is not a valid one. Gender is about expression and perception. This includes how one perceives one's self. but the terms can be conflated a lot and it can get confusing, I agree.


Hence why a more adequate term for this should be evaluated.




osaka35 said:


> The problem is if you wait until adult-hood, then the damage of being forced to live inside a body that you don't feel is yours is potentially incredibly psychologically damaging. That, and it's far far easier to transition when you're young and your body hasn't gone through it's long cycle of change at puberty. But I agree, a professional should discuss and assess the situation with a youngling before such things happen, but it could be far more dangerous to mental health to legally require them to wait. Why wait? Let the experts handle it, not politicians or other non-experts.


It is called "'practicing' medicine" for a reason.



osaka35 said:


> And yes, conformity is a strong force...but conformity tends to go the other way. What your saying is like saying there are all these kids coming out of the closet that aren't actually gay, but are just doing it because they think that's what cool people do and they saw it on TV. How often do you think that'd actually happen?


It is real and it is happening far too much. Our progressive culture is embracing it. Sadly, many 'progressive' parents are actually pushing this upon their children.

Where do we know that the influence is coming from? Is it really that child, or is it the parent enforcing their agenda? We need to distinguish those and penalize the parents that push this on their children. Too many 'progressive' parents are making the choice for their children, not the child making the choice.


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> It didn't come across as that way, at least not to me
> 
> However, it's interesting that you mention two-spirited, because before I looked into it I thought the same thing, but it's actually its own separate identity (with good reason). It all goes back to various Native American sacred practices and beliefs, basically, as the ultra-short version. I would, however, definitely give the hairy eyeball to any non-Native that says they identify as two-spirited, for that exact reason


In threads like these where I actually break character from Lilith and try to give a more logical and thought out post, making sure to cover each detail and keep it civil. It's just who I am as the actual person behind the screen, I like details to be covered and my answers to be clear.
That being said, I've done a lot research into the two-spirit identity, but personally always wanted to actually meet someone can give a solid and clear answer. I don't intend to mix it up with something else, but I tend to really find more simple answers tackling the history verse the actual culture behind the identity.
I am one for knowledge and holding onto out of date ideas simply won't help me. If I can find evidence against my ideas, I research it until I understand what I am looking at. I actually used to be someone who equally believed that there were only 2 genders, until I started meeting people and actually researching it over keeping my old believes. My personal strive for knowledge and the people I've met is what changed my stance on the topic.


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

I identify as black. Funny that it is okay to identify as everything according to multiple gender pushers but identifying as  black is not okay. Oh i am also 2 spirited and one of my spirits is black and the other is Chinese


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> I identify as black. Funny that it is okay to identify as everything according to multiple gender pushers but identifying as  black is not okay. Oh i am also 2 spirited and one of my spirits is black and the other is Chinese


That's because race is not the same as gender. There are social aspects to race, but race is also biological adaptions to locations. Someone who is Black isn't Black because of the social aspect to it, they inherited a trait from their parents, that was passed down through generations to deal with the hot/bright sun in Africa. This trait became dominate because the human body found it was these traits were needed and continued to pass them on. There can be the "social" or even cultural aspects to race, but interestingly those are actually not always exclusive. If I were raised by a Mexican family and picked up their culture, I still won't have the genetic traits of my family, but I would have the cultural traits from them.
You are mocking an Native American tradition without actually knowing what it is. You aren't just wrong, you are ignorant.


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That's because race is not the same as gender. There are social aspects to race, but race is also biological adaptions to locations. Someone who is Black isn't Black because of the social aspect to it, they inherited a trait from their parents, that was passed down through generations to deal with the hot/bright sun in Africa. This trait became dominate because the human body found it was these traits were needed and continued to pass them on. There can be the "social" or even cultural aspects to race, but interestingly those are actually not always exclusive. If I were raised by a Mexican family and picked up their culture, I still won't have the genetic traits of my family, but I would have the cultural traits from them.
> You are mocking an Native American tradition without actually knowing what it is. You aren't just wrong, you are ignorant.


Someone who isn't a train isn't also a train so if i identify as black then i am as black as that person is a train. It goes by the same logic and that's that. I am not ignorant or wrong because i just use the same logic you're doing now. It's Always funny when you push your own agenda that logic is correct but if it doesn't it suddenly isn't correct anymore


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> SomeonTse who isn't a train isn't also a train so if i identify as black then i am as black as that person is a train. It goes by the same logic and that's that


That's literally not how it works and I just explained why, I won't repeat myself for someone intentionally being ignorant on the topic at hand.


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> That's literally not how it works and I just explained why, I won't repeat myself for someone intentionally being ignorant on the topic at hand.


No your logic doesn't make sense and you yourself don't even know how it works like you said yourself '' If a person was raised by mexicans he isn't a mexican and you don't know why showing that your logic is flawed because there are zero apperent rules how identifying works. Because some is okay and some aren't and there isn't really a rule for why ??? The only thing i see people Always using as a thing to make their point is it is disrespectful. Well i feel disrespected if a woman says she's a man so according to that messed up logic it is not okay. Why the hell is it okay for you to identify as everything and i can't be black because you said it is disrespectful. But before everybody is saying you can identify as everything as long as you feel like that. Well i feel black so who are you to tell me i'm not. Haha funny when you use the same logic showing it is flawed as fuck


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

its funny that the "liberal" stance is everyone being forced to comply with their view and the "all evil right" stance is live and let live, if you wanna be a powerpuff unicorn you be you just don't expect everyone to change their life to pander to your whim of being special, I wouldn't demand anyone who identifies as a unicorn to be forced not to do so, I would hope they wouldn't expect me to be forced to follow their opinions either

I'm more than willing to give trans people the respect of using their pronouns if talking to them as long as they are showing signs of trying to actually fit that gender, but some butch guy with a beard isn't going to be getting called "she" just because he says he feels like atm

that said the whole "urggh you agree with one thing on that side, = you ultra hard right" is just a silly game played by people with a binary brain, the political and social opinions are a spectrum and your a bigot to think its only binary , I would personally be more of a centrist with a few leaning on either side, not your cookie cutter left/right


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## RaptorDMG (Apr 27, 2018)

If I had a pound(£) for each gender I'd have £2
Having all these stupid genders is annoying and unnecessary


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## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> No your logic doesn't make sense and you yourself don't even know how it works like you said yourself '' If a person was raised by mexicans he isn't a mexican and you don't know why showing that your logic is flawed because there are zero apperent rules how identifying works. Because some is okay and some aren't and there isn't really a rule for why ??? The only thing i see people Always using as a thing to make their point is it is disrespectful. Well i feel disrespected then if a woman says she's a man so according to that messed up logic it is not okay. Why the hell is it okay for you to identify as everything and i can't be black because you said it is disrespectful. But before everybody is saying you can identify as everything as long as you feel like that. Well i feel black so who are you to tell me i'm not. Haha funny when you use the same logic showing it is flawed as fuck


You are bringing race into a topic that has nothing to do with race coupled with a lack of understanding the difference between cultural and biological. You can't be a race that you weren't born into because those traits are actually passed down by your parents. Your gender nor even your sex are actually passed down by your parents.


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> You are bringing race into a topic that has nothing to do with race coupled with a lack of understanding the difference between cultural and biological. You can't be a race that you weren't born into because those traits are actually passed down by your parents. Your gender nor even your sex are actually passed down by your parents.


You also can't be a banana because you're born a human. You also can't be a spirit or the son of god or whatever. Your logic is flawed. If you can be everything you want then i can be black and like the gender pushers Always say '' who are you to tell me i am not'' Race, dna, chromosomes it is all based on real facts that nature tells you what you are. According to your logic nature can fuck themselves and you can be whatever you want. Well i am black !!! Why is it okay to disregard other stuff nature tells you what you are but for race it is not okay wich is a load of bull because they are all facts that tell you what you are but to fit your own agenda it is okay to disregard all that, all of that besides race. It is not okay for me to be black because i don't look black so why is it okay for a man to be a woman when he looks like a man ?? If i am a white person who really thinks he/she is black and you deny that then by your own logic that is being disrespectful towards me. So if you identify as something i have to show you respect for that but when i do identify as something you're not okay with it suddenly is all incorrect and you don't have to show me respect. That logic is flawed


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## Boured (Apr 27, 2018)

In my opinion, there are males,females, and a combination of the two. I should know as I know someone who is a combination of the two.


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

Boured said:


> In my opinion, there are males,females, and a combination of the two. I should know as I know someone who is a combination of the two.


Yeah as long as they look the part when they do i agree


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## SG854 (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> No your logic doesn't make sense and you yourself don't even know how it works like you said yourself '' If a person was raised by mexicans he isn't a mexican and you don't know why showing that your logic is flawed because there are zero apperent rules how identifying works. Because some is okay and some aren't and there isn't really a rule for why ??? The only thing i see people Always using as a thing to make their point is it is disrespectful. Well i feel disrespected then if a woman says she's a man so according to that messed up logic it is not okay


If they were rasied by Mexicans and Mexican tradition they would be Mexican.

There can be Asian Mexicans, Afro Mexicans, European Mexicans, Arab Mexicans. Mexicans are people from Mexico, or people who identify with the Mexican cultural or national identity.


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

SG854 said:


> If they were rasied by Mexicans and Mexican tradition they would be Mexican.
> 
> There can be Asian Mexicans, Afro Mexicans, European Mexicans, Arab Mexicans. Mexicans are people from Mexico, or people who identify with the Mexican cultural or national identity.


according to that other person they can't be. I didn't claim anything


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## lolboy (Apr 27, 2018)

ShadowOne333 said:


> One important point to make:
> Who the hell would want to find a bathroom from 72 door choices? :^}
> Fuck no I prefer to have only 2 doors in any food place, thank you




On the bright side we could always us more bathrooms. We could enter any as we wish just by changing our gender on the spot.


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## gamesquest1 (Apr 27, 2018)

lolboy said:


> On the bright side we could always us more bathrooms. We could enter any as we wish just by changing our gender on the spot.


I still find it annoying when women just bust into the mens bathroom because women on average take a very long time in the bathrooms #notall , I would like to see the reaction if it happened the other way around though....I would say the probability of someone calling security would be much higher

I guess giving women a makeup and gossiping room might be a solution to that one though so women who actually need the toilet aren't left waiting for 20 minutes


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> I identify as black. Funny that it is okay to identify as everything according to multiple gender pushers but identifying as  black is not okay. Oh i am also 2 spirited and one of my spirits is black and the other is Chinese


There are so many reasons why what you just said isn't ok, so let's unpack them:

"I identify as black". Black is not an identity, it is a race/ethnic background, and one that comes with heavy stigmatism at that. What you're attempting to compare to gender is more comparable to sex; it's something that's determined by biological background and simply cannot be changed, and those who attempt to "change" to that "racial identity" (*gack*) by wearing blackface virtually always do it for one of three reasons: to mock black people, to poorly attempt to show allyship (which can be done just as easily by any other race, which almost causes this to fall under "kinship", which is stupid for a whole host of other reasons), or because they somehow expect special treatment or benefits from it.

"Funny that it is okay to identify as everything according to multiple gender pushers but identifying as  black is not okay". Where did you get that idea? Or are you being willfully or intentionally ignorant on the matter? The idea is to present yourself however you feel comfortable on the spectrum from masculine to feminine, not fake an entire ethnic background in an ill attempt to "become" another race

"Oh i am also 2 spirited and one of my spirits is black and the other is Chinese". Are you Native American? If not, what you just said is INCREDIBLY offensive (or at the very least inconsiderate) and I think you know it. The religion that the Natives follow (under which the idea of being two-spirited falls) is closed, and practiced strictly to Native people and on rare occasions people close to them personally who have done good and selfless things for a tribe; I don't think you have to be a genius to guess why. So not only have you claimed to be something that holds sacred weight just to make a (rather stupid) argument, but you've done so in a way that you've twisted in your own way to allow you to take a stab at an even stupider one. What it seems like you were going for was a multiple personality disorder, but even then you're walking on a thin line because there are heavy preexisting stigmatizations associated with people living with that, as well

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



kumikochan said:


> No your logic doesn't make sense and you yourself don't even know how it works like you said yourself '' If a person was raised by mexicans he isn't a mexican and you don't know why showing that your logic is flawed because there are zero apperent rules how identifying works. Because some is okay and some aren't and there isn't really a rule for why ??? The only thing i see people Always using as a thing to make their point is it is disrespectful. Well i feel disrespected if a woman says she's a man so according to that messed up logic it is not okay. Why the hell is it okay for you to identify as everything and i can't be black because you said it is disrespectful. But before everybody is saying you can identify as everything as long as you feel like that. Well i feel black so who are you to tell me i'm not. Haha funny when you use the same logic showing it is flawed as fuck


That's not what she said, I think you got confused somewhere along the way. Of course you'd grow up Mexican (where she specifically says you would have the "cultural, but not genetic traits of"), because "Mexican" isn't a race, it's a national identity. "Latino/a" or "Latin American", on the other hand, is the ethnicity that most Mexican natives fall under, and you cannot simply change ethnicities by living in a country for a certain amount of time.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



kumikochan said:


> You also can't be a banana because you're born a human. You also can't be a spirit or the son of god or whatever. Your logic is flawed. If you can be everything you want then i can be black and like the gender pushers Always say '' who are you to tell me i am not'' Race, dna, chromosomes it is all based on real facts that nature tells you what you are. According to your logic nature can fuck themselves and you can be whatever you want. Well i am black !!! Why is it okay to disregard other stuff nature tells you what you are but for race it is not okay wich is a load of bull because they are all facts that tell you what you are but to fit your own agenda it is okay to disregard all that, all of that besides race. It is not okay for me to be black because i don't look black so why is it okay for a man to be a woman when he looks like a man ?? If i am a white person who really thinks he/she is black and you deny that then by your own logic that is being disrespectful towards me. So if you identify as something i have to show you respect for that but when i do identify as something you're not okay with it suddenly is all incorrect and you don't have to show me respect. That logic is flawed


I'm going to try to make this the last time I'm going to say it in this thread, but for crying out loud gender is not a biological aspect, I t is the SOCIAL concept of the behaviors of a certain SEX, which is the BIOLOGICAL aspect. In that sense, there's no reason that someone who is biologically female, with little to no breast development and who cuts her hair short short, like one of my irl friends, shouldn't identify as non-binary, for instance. That's but one example, but there are many reasons why a person either would identify with the behaviors of the opposite gender, or would want to affiliate with something in-between, or even not follow a strict identity


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> There are so many reasons why what you just said isn't ok, so let's unpack them:
> 
> "I identify as black". Black is not an identity, it is a race/ethnic background, and one that comes with heavy stigmatism at that. What you're attempting to compare to gender is more comparable to sex; it's something that's determined by biological background and simply cannot be changed, and those who attempt to "change" to that "racial identity" (*gack*) by wearing blackface virtually always do it for one of three reasons: to mock black people, to poorly attempt to show allyship (which can be done just as easily by any other race, which almost causes this to fall under "kinship", which is stupid for a whole host of other reasons), or because they somehow expect special treatment or benefits from it.
> 
> ...


 Jezus christ so much text. Being black is as much as an identity as identifying yourself as something else. You find that offensive so in that regard identifying yourself as something suddenly isn't correct anymore but when it isn't offensive towards you it is okay. Kinda funny that someone before said it is okay to identify as mexican when you're raised by mexicans under the mexican culture. What if i was adopted by black people in a black community and by that logic call myself black ? And please don't come at me with culture because black people do have their own culture even when living in the same country as yourself or me. I am not ignorant on that matter because it is okay to identify as Mexican, Italian and so forth but boehoe if you say you're black. Well i don't but it's just to make a point what a load of bull this all is. Being Black is as much as a national identity then Mexican is and so forth or are you telling me that most black people have the same history and culture compared to white people ? I'm not being racist here or saying i am superior wich i am totally not but they do have their own culture and so forth so in that regard you can identify as a black person as much as any person can identify as a mexican. Why is saying i am 2 spirited offensive ? Is it because i don't believe in that and because i don't believe in that it suddenly is offensive. I am in my right to ridicule something i don't believe in, that is one of my basic rights as a human being. I don't follow that political correct bullshit that came over from the states. I see it as taking away your own freedom what you can do and say and in my eyes i can ridicule as much as i want as long as i am not hurting anyone by it. It's not like i am saying in person to someone who is native american that his/her belief is bullshit. I am not saying anything directly towards a person. You have a different opinion about genders then i do but to me how it works is flawed. To me a person can only identify as something as long as they look the part and thats never ever gonna change and if a guy looks like a guy or visa versa and they identify as something else then i won't say sorry for calling them what they look like.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> Kinda funny that someone before said it is okay to identify as mexican when you're raised by mexicans under the mexican culture. What if i was adopted by black people in a black community and by that logic call myself black ?


I've addressed that; being Mexican doesn't make you ethnically Latin American, and in the same way being African doesn't make you Black. I assume you're referring to American Black culture, though, which would still make American; growing up in the "Hood" doesn't change the color of your skin, nor does it subject you to the same cultural stigmatisms as Black people; yeah, it can have its own challenges and you'll probably end up picking up on the pidgin language and mannerisms, but in the end it's still a subset of either African or American culture, depending on where in America you are


> And please don't come at me with culture because black people do have their own culture even when living in the same country as yourself or me. I am not ignorant on that matter because it is okay to identify as Mexican, Italian and so forth but boehoe if you say you're black.


See above


> Well i don't but it's just to make a point what a load of bull this all is.


That's one heck of a non-argument...


> Being Black is as much as a national identity then Mexican is and so forth


It's objectively not


> or are you telling me that most black people have the same history and culture compared to white people ? I'm not being racist here or saying i am superior wich i am totally not but they do have their own culture


They do indeed, and they're entitled to it. But in America, a lot of the culture that isn't derived from African culture is derived from slave and post-slavery culture, which come from experiences that really only ethnically Black people can draw from and understand. Yes, you can integrate with them and share in cultural experiences, but again, that doesn't change your ethnicity


> Why is saying i am 2 spirited offensive ? Is it because i don't believe in that and because i don't believe in that it suddenly is offensive.


That's not the reason and you know it


> I am in my right to ridicule something i don't believe in, that is one of my basic rights as a human being. I don't follow that political correct bullshit that came over from the states. I see it as taking away your own freedom what you can do and say and in my eyes i can ridicule as much as i want as long as i am not hurting anyone by it.


Lemme teach you a quick lesson in "respec' "; just because you are able to, and indeed, have the Constitutional RIGHT to say something offensive, does not mean that what you are saying is in any way less offensive, nor does it shelter you from others right to call you out on it. You might be out there exercising your God-given rights, but if you use it to ridicule other people that really just makes you a dick


> It's not like i am saying in person to someone who is native american that his/her belief is bullshit. I am not saying anything directly towards a person.


You may not be saying it directly to anyone, but you have no way of knowing who all is looking at this thread, nor will you necessarily know if you try to make that argument to someone you've just met


> You have a different opinion about genders then i do but to me how it works is flawed. To me a person can only identify as something as long as they look the part and thats never ever gonna change and if a guy looks like a guy or visa versa and they identify as something else then i won't say sorry for calling them what they look like.


So... To bring up the "I indentify as Black" argument one more time... Are you implying you'd wear a full face of makeup all day everyday?...

And to go back on topic, I do hope that you understand that that's the goal of every transgender individual, right, to pass as their gender identity?... On top of that, though, what would you do if you encountered someone androgynous?


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## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

Gender and your biological makeup are the same. Liberals go around trying to rewrite things to their liking. There are two sexes so there are two genders. It's quite simple.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

cots said:


> Gender and your biological makeup are the same. Liberals go around trying to rewrite things to their liking. There are two sexes so there are two genders. It's quite simple.


You just... Really don't like reading, do you?...


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## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You just... Really don't like reading, do you?...



Your opinion is based on re-writing history, biology and lots of sexual education text books. Just because you believe something and try to force it on others doesn't make it fact. Science is pretty clear about the penis and vagina; you either have one or the other.


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## DarthDub (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You just... Really don't like reading, do you?...


People read on GBATemp? @cots You do realize not everything is defined by political beliefs? Also the term you're looking for is neo-liberalism. Gender has always been a social construct whether you like it or not.


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## McWhiters9511 (Apr 27, 2018)

i personally dont care what people identify as. we just simply arent able to make laws around it


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## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> People read on GBATemp? @cots You do realize not everything is defined by political beliefs? Also the term you're looking for is neo-liberalism. Gender has always been a social construct whether you like it or not.



Gender is not a shared opinion; it is what people call their sex based on biology. You can't go around changing the ways things have been from the start of evolution just because a few kids can't figure one of the most simple things out. You can be trans, bi, gay, lesbian, etc ... or call yourself whatever you want, but it doesn't change your gender. Your gender is what you were born with. If you cut it off or change things it doesn't change the fact you are either a male or female no matter how much you wish it would be true.


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## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> ISo... To bring up the "I indentify as Black" argument one more time... Are you implying you'd wear a full face of makeup all day everyday?...
> 
> And to go back on topic, I do hope that you understand that that's the goal of every transgender individual, right, to pass as their gender identity?... On top of that, though, what would you do if you encountered someone androgynous?


So you do have to look the part to be adressed as such ? Because that is basicly what you're saying now and when i watch videos about genders they say you don't have to look the part but just feel like it.
You basicly said you have to look the part because you asked me if i wear face paint everyday. Plus like i said, i don't care about genders as long as they look the part that they say they are.
I just don't agree with people saying you identify how you feel hence why i said that i identify as black showing the flaws in that logic. If it is by looks then i agree 100 percent


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> So you do have to look the part to be adressed as such ? Because that is basicly what you're saying now and when i watch videos about genders they say you don't have to look the part but just feel like it.
> You basicly said you have to look the part because you asked me if i wear face paint everyday


I'm just trying to find a consistency to _your _argument, don't read more into it than what I wrote


----------



## DarthDub (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> So you do have to look the part to be adressed as such ? Because that is basicly what you're saying now and when i watch videos about genders they say you don't have to look the part but just feel like it.
> You basicly said you have to look the part because you asked me if i wear face paint everyday. Plus like i said, i don't care about genders as long as they look the part that they say they are.


Remember Michael Jackson? He was black and then had a skin disorder that made him white.


----------



## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm just trying to find a consistency to _your _argument, don't read more into it than what I wrote


Yeah i edited it and wrote a bit more because i didn't fully explain

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



DarthDub said:


> Remember Michael Jackson? He was black and then had a skin disorder that made him white.


He also identified as white wich is wrong it seems by many people here hence why he did all the surgery because he didn't like his afro american features


----------



## The Real Jdbye (Apr 27, 2018)

kbmarinha said:


> I agree with OP
> There is only XX and XY.
> Even if a guy cut of his dick, implant tits and use hormones it wont turn him on a woman. You cant change DNA


There is also XXY though.


TotalInsanity4 said:


> And now we come back around to the reminder that while gender is a social construct, sex is the physical aspect, which is what you appear to be attempting to parody
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


As long as you start them at a young enough age that is. Many people aren't lucky enough to be able to do that.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> He also identified as white wich is wrong it seems by many people here hence why he did all the surgery because he didn't like his afro american features


As far as I'm aware, that's... Not true in the slightest... He had a skin disorder that made his skin blotchy so he decided to bleach it so it would look uniform. If he actually formally called himself "white" after that, then that's news to me


----------



## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> As far as I'm aware, that's... Not true in the slightest... He had a skin disorder that made his skin blotchy so he decided to bleach it so it would look uniform. If he actually formally called himself "white" after that, then that's news to me


He did tho. He didn't like his afro american features like the big nose and jaw line wich he all had changed tru surgery.

http://ewn.co.za/2016/08/29/Michael...rase-his-memory-of-his-alleged-abusive-father
He wanted to look like a northern athlete because of reasons being the abusive father but that doesn't take away that he changed his features to look more white because he wanted to look like a northern athlete


----------



## Heichart (Apr 27, 2018)

Welp, my opinion is: "There are only the ones who produces a fluid that can be utilized to fertilizate or inseminate something, and the one who produces a fluid that can be fertilizated or inseminated. We call that male and female. Everything else is constructed by someone not in power to change that, sadly.".
You can identify yourself the way you want, there's no problem with that, but you can't force someone to identify you the way you identify yourself before you identify yourself to them beforehand.


----------



## 3DSPoet (Apr 27, 2018)

Wow...so....much....

Here's my take on all this...

Gender is a physiological condition (as stated previously).  There are more than 2 configurations, but it's still a biology trait and not a psychological trait.

A male has a penis and does not produce milk.  A woman has a vagina and can produce milk for her offspring. (These are "normal" genders..and there's only 2)

That having been said, there are irregularities that occur that can mix any of the traits I just mentioned.  If your biological body doesn't fit the 2 normal genders, meaning you physically have traits that are a mix of the two, then you are entitled to have a different gender (such as hermaphrodite, which is someone who exhibits traits of both genders)

Now, the problem with there being "more than 2 genders" is that it looks like the Unown alphabet and it's absolutely absurd.  Unless you fall into one of the MAYBE six biological configurations, then you're NOT an amorphous toaster unicorn, you're someone with a PSYCHOLOGICAL disposition, which is NOT related to gender.

It IS possible for a man to have elevated estrogen and think and feel more like a woman than a man, but if he's got the hardware of a male, he's a male...doesn't matter how his brain works.  By that logic, we need separate accommodations for not just all of the genders, but each of the abnormalities within each gender.  For instance, lets say that the man I mentioned above who thinks he is a woman...is into women.  Since he identified as a woman, that would make him a lesbian.  So which bathroom should he use?  Which locker room should he use?  (and here's where my point really comes in...the locker room)

If there are 31 flavors of human and there are only 2 locker rooms to change in...where do you sort them into?  Does the lesbian man go into the women's locker room or the men's locker room?  Since he's into women, he would be a potential predator in the women's locker room even though he identifies as a woman and the women would be upset to have a man changing in there.  You could change the variables in this scenario to pretty much anything you want.  A gay man in a men's locker room or a lesbian woman in the women's locker room present their own issues, but when you start letting people decide their gender, it makes things even worse. 

You can call yourself a sparkly segmented platypus who is maysexual, but only on Tuesdays...that's up to you.

But gender is NOT a state of mind...not even a state of the chemicals in your brain (as I believe sexual preferences and such are, mostly, a chemical difference in the brain and NOT a conscious choice).

If you are PHYSICALLY female, you're a female.  If you are PHYSICALLY a male, you're a male.  Anything else is a personality trait, not a gender.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

kumikochan said:


> He did tho. He didn't like his afro american features like the big nose and jaw line wich he all had changed tru surgery.
> 
> http://ewn.co.za/2016/08/29/Michael...rase-his-memory-of-his-alleged-abusive-father
> He wanted to look like a northern athlete because of reasons being the abusive father but that doesn't take away that he changed his features to look more white because he wanted to look like a northern athlete


He wasn't trying to change racial identity from what I can tell, he was just trying to look "youthful" (which he kind of failed at). His first plastic surgery was on his nose because he broke it doing complex choreography, not strictly because he wanted to distance himself from his genetic looks

Of course, I could be wrong, but regardless that doesn't change the fact that ethnically, he was very much black, even if he didn't look it towards the end of his life due both to Vitiligo and multiple plastic surgeries


----------



## kumikochan (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> He wasn't trying to change racial identity from what I can tell, he was just trying to look "youthful" (which he kind of failed at). His first plastic surgery was on his nose because he broke it doing complex choreography, not strictly because he wanted to distance himself from his genetic looks
> 
> Of course, I could be wrong, but regardless that doesn't change the fact that ethnically, he was very much black, even if he didn't look it towards the end of his life due both to Vitiligo and multiple plastic surgeries


i'm not saying he wasn't black. From multiple articles i read was that he wanted to look more northern meaning white so yeah i could be wrong 2 but that's what i get from it atleast


----------



## SG854 (Apr 27, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> People read on GBATemp? @cots You do realize not everything is defined by political beliefs? Also the term you're looking for is neo-liberalism. Gender has always been a social construct whether you like it or not.


Ye its a social construct which means it was made up. Like all cultures. But if you look at biological determinism someone who is gay would say its biological. So gayness is not a social construct. Now gender is based on how someone feels. But how do people know that the feeling doesn't come from biology? If Gender is a social construct that means their feelings are made up and they can change it at will. Just like any culture that you can drop at will if you don't want to associate with anymore, like Japanese culture. Or do people feel that even emotions aren't changeable? If gender has a biological basis for feelings then its not a social construct. And Gender and Sex is the same thing.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

3DSPoet said:


> Wow...so....much....
> 
> Here's my take on all this...
> 
> ...


On your last argument, I'd like you to think long and hard about whether or not you've ever heard of a lesbian assaulting another woman in a locker room in general, and then think even harder if you've ever heard of the same thing happening with a transgender woman


----------



## MikaDubbz (Apr 27, 2018)

Why change your mind?  I personally only think there are technically 2 genders, but if someone wants to be labeled as something else and they aren't hurting anyone in the process, who am I to say that they're wrong to do so and shouldn't do so?  Live and let live I say.  There is way too much needless hate in the world, and I just don't get it.


----------



## 3DSPoet (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> On your last argument, I'd like you to think long and hard about whether or not you've ever heard of a lesbian assaulting another woman in a locker room in general, and then think even harder if you've ever heard of the same thing happening with a transgender woman



How often do you hear about a man being assaulted by a woman?  Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  How many rapes happen that no one ever hears about?  

This entire thread is based on opinions and perceptions.  No one is wrong and no one is right.  So you think long and hard about your opinions and I'll do the same about mine.


----------



## MiguelinCrafter (Apr 27, 2018)

Naw, man it is as you say, there are only two genders, no need to change your mind


----------



## ihaveahax (Apr 27, 2018)

I'm probably going to regret this,

someone can identify as male or female or non-binary or whatever and that's fine to me. I'll refer to them as he/she/they all they want. I don't care about their biological sex, it doesn't matter here. and whether or not there are two or more genders is not for me to decide.


----------



## DeslotlCL (Apr 27, 2018)

3DSPoet said:


> Wow...so....much....
> 
> Here's my take on all this...
> 
> ...


Who said males cant produce milk? The milk i like is only produced by males


----------



## cots (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You can Google "man assaults woman" and get a plethora of news articles. Google "transgender woman assaults woman" and you get a few tabloids and Fox news articles with dubious sources, and then a long list of "Transgender woman assaulted by..." articles



If you knew anything about the legal system you'd know that 99.9% of the crimes don't make the press.


----------



## 3DSPoet (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You can Google "man assaults woman" and get a plethora of news articles. Google "transgender woman assaults woman" and you get a few tabloids and Fox news articles with dubious sources, and then a long list of "Transgender woman assaulted by..." articles



This is true, but if you do some deeper research, you'll find studies and research talking about how men, in particular, are extremely unlikely to report being assaulted by a woman due to not wanting anyone to know about it due to the shame or embarrassment.  The same holds true with rape.

Also, news articles, in general, especially those found on the internet, are all rather dubious sources.  I don't particularly like Fox news, but there are a whole lot of people who would argue, if not straight out crucify you, for calling them an unreliable source.  Just a reminder that there are 2 sides to every story.  For every man or rape victim who doesn't report the crime...there are likely at least as many false accusations reported as legit news.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 27, 2018)

A bit off-topic, but where did this "gbatemp is more conservative" come form? Was there a poll I miss? 
Like even if a person does have one or some opinions that don't fit their "mold" doesn't mean that is their whole outlook on life.


----------



## DarthDub (Apr 27, 2018)

KingVamp said:


> A bit off-topic, but where did this "gbatemp is more conservative" come form? Was there a poll I miss?
> Like even if a person does have one or some opinions that don't fit their "mold" doesn't mean that is their whole outlook on life.


People who only think in Black and White. People who think in bipartisan ways.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

KingVamp said:


> A bit off-topic, but where did this "gbatemp is more conservative" come form? Was there a poll I miss?
> Like even if a person does have one or some opinions that don't fit their "mold" doesn't mean that is their whole outlook on life.


A plurality of GBAtempers who were polled said they would vote for Trump during the primaries


3DSPoet said:


> This is true, but if you do some deeper research, you'll find studies and research talking about how men, in particular, are extremely unlikely to report being assaulted by a woman due to not wanting anyone to know about it due to the shame or embarrassment.  The same holds true with rape.


Spot on, and I'm painfully aware of the issue and agree that something needs to be done to support male rape victims. I was, however, specifically referring to transgender women assaulting other women, since you brought up "lesbian men" in your previous post and how they'd be sexually attracted to women


cots said:


> If you knew anything about the legal system you'd know that 99.9% of the crimes don't make the press.


You know, they say that 62% of all statistics are made up on the spot

Plus history has shown that violent crimes are significantly more likely to get press coverage, even if they make up less than 10% of the crimes committed. (https://dartcenter.org/content/violence-comparing-reporting-and-reality)

Plus, since this is a rather significant social issue in the public eye, as demonstrated by this thread, you'd expect there to be a lot more articles about assault by a transgender individual if it actually were a prevalent issue

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

-snip-


----------



## 3DSPoet (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Plus, since this is a rather significant social issue in the public eye, as demonstrated by this thread, you'd expect there to be a lot more articles about assault by a transgender individual if it actually were a prevalent issue
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



This is, clearly, a very deep and personal subject to you.  Your replies are emotional and have a very specific and singular side to them.  My posts were meant to illustrate both sides of the argument with examples.  The idea of a lesbian man is, at best, rather ridiculous given the very specific (and contradictory) chemical mix that would be needed to produce such a person.  

In my opinion, people may call themselves whatever they want...and they may call me whatever they want.  Other people's beliefs aren't my beliefs.  Their opinions are just that, a suggestion of ideas for me to assimilate or ignore as I see fit.  I'm anti-sjw, but pro true equality.  I'm going to post this link and fly away now!


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> A plurality of GBAtempers who were polled said they would vote for Trump during the primaries


We don't know how many people were taking that poll seriously, how many people voted Trump because they specifically didn't want Hillary nor how many people didn't voted at all. 



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Plus, since this is a rather significant social issue in the public eye, as demonstrated by this thread, you'd expect there to be a lot more articles about assault by a transgender individual if it actually were a prevalent issue


Not that I agree or disagree here, but to be fair, not like the transgender population is that big compare to the rest of the human population. Chances of it happening and being reported is much lower. 

Honestly tho, more unisex rooms as an addition would make it a bit more comfortable for everyone.


----------



## the_randomizer (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> A plurality of GBAtempers who were polled said they would vote for Trump during the primaries
> 
> Spot on, and I'm painfully aware of the issue and agree that something needs to be done to support male rape victims. I was, however, specifically referring to transgender women assaulting other women, since you brought up "lesbian men" in your previous post and how they'd be sexually attracted to women
> 
> ...



So what if there are people on here who voted Trump? What right does it give for people to go after those who didn't vote for Hillary?  Whatever happened to accepting those who have differences of opinions, and where does it say that we have to vote or think a certain way? Since when does that give others the right to bash those who don't think like everyone else? I genuinely want to know, because that's a pretty BS thing to do.


----------



## Cubuss (Apr 27, 2018)

You cant choose your gender boi,

Either you have a pipi or a vagege ,


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

KingVamp said:


> We don't know how many people were taking that poll seriously, how many people voted Trump because they specifically didn't want Hillary nor how many people didn't voted at all.





the_randomizer said:


> So what if there are people on here who voted Trump? What right does it give for people to go after those who didn't vote for Hillary?  Whatever happened to accepting those who have differences of opinions, and where does it say that we have to vote or think a certain way? Since when does that give others the right to bash those who don't think like everyone else? I genuinely want to know, because that's a pretty BS thing to do.


My point on the matter was to highlight the poll for the primaries, not the election itself. During the primaries you had the option to vote for virtually every running Democrat, Republican, and I believe @Lacius tossed a few third parties in there, too, and yet if Donald Trump were elected solely by GBAtemp members he would have won the popular vote. In my eyes that's a bit telling as to the political leanings of the community, but if you want me to put money where my mouth is I can resurrect the debate club one more time with a formal political party poll (obviously with more than two options, as is standard for me)


----------



## DarkFlare69 (Apr 27, 2018)

i feel like people take gender identity way too seriously. why does it matter? there's boys who like videogames and boys who like sports, and everything in between. there's girls who like partying and girls who like shopping, and again everything in between.

what im saying is that gender is a very broad thing. you dont have to be one specific thing to fit into one gender. so i think it's stupid and pointless to create more genders than just male and female.


----------



## the_randomizer (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> My point on the matter was to highlight the poll for the primaries, not the election itself. During the primaries you had the option to vote for virtually every running Democrat, Republican, and I believe @Lacius tossed a few third parties in there, too, and yet if Donald Trump were elected solely by GBAtemp members he would have won the popular vote. In my eyes that's a bit telling as to the political leanings of the community, but if you want me to put money where my mouth is I can resurrect the debate club one more time with a formal political party poll (obviously with more than two options, as is standard for me)



Well, I didn't want to vote for Hillary, so that should be pretty telling in and of itself. But regardless of the popular vote or Electoral vote, that system is broken too. If we won by the popular vote, California and other large populated areas would have unfair advantage.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

DarkFlare69 said:


> i feel like people take gender identity way too seriously. why does it matter? there's boys who like videogames and boys who like sports, and everything in between. there's girls who like partying and girls who like shopping, and again everything in between.
> 
> what im saying is that gender is a very broad thing. you dont have to be one specific thing to fit into one gender. so i think it's stupid and pointless to create more genders than just male and female.


I think your argument would carry a bit more weight if you had said "boys who like shopping and boys who play videogames" and "girls who like partying and girls who like sports"

Just as a suggestion

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



the_randomizer said:


> Well, I didn't want to vote for Hillary, so that should be pretty telling in and of itself. But regardless of the popular vote or Electoral vote, that system is broken too. If we won by the popular vote, California and other large populated areas would have unfair advantage.


Which is understandable, for the election. But as I said, during the primaries you (royal, not specifically YOU) could have voted for anyone, even if you were voting against Hillary


----------



## DarkFlare69 (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I think your argument would carry a bit more weight if you had said "boys who like shopping and boys who play videogames" and "girls who like partying and girls who like sports"
> 
> Just as a suggestion


that works as well. my point was to list 2 things that are not even close to each other to show that u dont have to be one specific thing to be one gender. but yeah what you said works too and i agree with it


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

DarkFlare69 said:


> that works as well. my point was to list 2 things that are not even close to each other to show that u dont have to be one specific thing to be one gender. but yeah what you said works too and i agree with it


The reason I said what I did specifically is that you listed two things that have historically been categorically "masculine" and "feminine", which in my eyes worked against the argument you were trying to make to the point you were almost arguing the opposite lol


----------



## FanmadeEndings (Apr 27, 2018)

The main problem I see with the multiple gender thing is that they are barely used in a descriptive context, but rather in a context of identity. (That phenomenon is not limited to that topic though.) Identity ideologies in themselves are pretty dangerous imo, as they tend to put people in a position where they would rather follow an irrational dogma than what they would choose without that identity, only based on the fact that that's just what or who they are. I do realize that the various number of social genders are a try to break out from the classic identities "man" and "woman", but imo, it just makes it worse. You can, for example, be a rather feminin man without having to use an extra complicated word for it. (Chances are that people wont get what you want to tell them by just using that word anyway. That some people would treat that reaction as an insult doesn't help a constructive handling either.) The key is to use "man" descriptive and not as something that is part of your identity.


----------



## the_randomizer (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I think your argument would carry a bit more weight if you had said "boys who like shopping and boys who play videogames" and "girls who like partying and girls who like sports"
> 
> Just as a suggestion
> 
> ...



Well, it wouldn't have made a difference, because the only good candidates I wanted to vote for chickened out of the race (Rubio, Carson, etc), sooo damned if I do, damned if I don't. Would never vote
for Beaker, er, Bernie.


----------



## x65943 (Apr 27, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Well, it wouldn't have made a difference, because the only good candidates I wanted to vote for chickened out of the race (Rubio, Carson, etc), sooo damned if I do, damned if I don't. Would never vote
> for Beaker, er, Bernie.


I wouldn't say it's correct that the other candidates chickened out. They lost their primaries. You can't blame the candidates - you have to blame the voter base who gave Trump the nomination. 

All this does is underscore how silly our 2 party system is. We should have a system like France with 2 votes - one with many candidates, and a run-off election.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 27, 2018)

x65943 said:


> I wouldn't say it's correct that the other candidates chickened out. They lost their primaries. You can't blame the candidates - you have to blame the voter base who gave Trump the nomination.
> 
> All this does is underscore how silly our 2 party system is. We should have a system like France with 2 votes - one with many candidates, and a run-off election.


Australia, I believe, has a system where you rank every candidate from most preferable to least on a number scale (1 being highest), and the person who's ranked highest wins. That way you never have to explicitly vote "for" or "against" someone


----------



## dpad_5678 (Apr 27, 2018)

Seems like someone was angered by a liberal and decided to go on yet another completely unrelated rant. But, meh, it's thunderstorming outside so I have nothing to do right now.

Conservatives/righties completely dislike the fact that someone of one gender doesn't act like the _stereotype _of that gender.
For example, hair like this seems to trigger conservatives pretty easily (as any woman with short pink hair is considered a "SJW" and further damages their already-fragile masculinity), just as the stereotypical feminine gay man angers conservatives to a large yet un-explainable degree.

My point is that not everyone will act like the stereotype of the gender that they are. Righties need to live with that.

Also funny how righties use science when talking about the "more than 2 genders topic" but science is wrong when it comes to global warming.....but that's a whole other discussion (?)


----------



## FanmadeEndings (Apr 27, 2018)

dpad_5678 said:


> Seems like someone was angered by a liberal and decided to go on yet another completely unrelated rant.



Where do you get that idea from? From just what he wrote, I'd assume he truely wanted an honest debate about this topic. Ask yourself this: Was this really political or did you just make it political so it would suit your narrative?



dpad_5678 said:


> My point is that not everyone will act like the stereotype of the gender that they are. Righties need to live with that.



A human being is perfectly capable of not suiting a stereotype without having a name for it.




dpad_5678 said:


> Also funny how righties use science when talking about the "more than 2 genders topic" but science is wrong when it comes to global warming.....but that's a whole other discussion (?)



Nice straw man you got there.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> My point on the matter was to highlight the poll for the primaries, not the election itself. During the primaries you had the option to vote for virtually every running Democrat, Republican, and I believe @Lacius tossed a few third parties in there, too, and yet if Donald Trump were elected solely by GBAtemp members he would have won the popular vote. In my eyes that's a bit telling as to the political leanings of the community, but if you want me to put money where my mouth is I can resurrect the debate club one more time with a formal political party poll (obviously with more than two options, as is standard for me)


Not needed, but I still think it came down to the candidates themselves and for reasons I already stated. Not rather if they were strictly conservative or not. Trump isn't really the traditional "conservative" person anyway. 

Not saying GBAtemp isn't mostly or more conservative, just not quick to say either way.


----------



## kbmarinha (Apr 27, 2018)

The Real Jdbye said:


> There is also XXY though.


I know that, they are still males... And you know what I meant. Same for XXX, still females..


----------



## The Catboy (Apr 27, 2018)

cots said:


> Gender is not a shared opinion; it is what people call their sex based on biology. You can't go around changing the ways things have been from the start of evolution just because a few kids can't figure one of the most simple things out. You can be trans, bi, gay, lesbian, etc ... or call yourself whatever you want, but it doesn't change your gender. Your gender is what you were born with. If you cut it off or change things it doesn't change the fact you are either a male or female no matter how much you wish it would be true.


Actually it has not been that way since the start, it has actually only been that way since Christian Europeans made it that way. Before Christianity a lot of cultures were both trans friendly and often acknowledged more than 2 genders. Christian Europeans were actually the ones who decided to change definition of gender to biological sex.


----------



## Viri (Apr 27, 2018)

kbmarinha said:


> I know that, they are still males... And you know what I meant. Same for XXX, still females..


I dunno why I expected lewd things from "XXX" chromosome, but I looked it up, and felt sad. I feel so bad for people with those disorders.


----------



## VashTS (Apr 27, 2018)

stop labels, do what makes you feel good and embrace difference within others. 

a nut is a nut, whether you are a boi or a gurl


----------



## Bimmel (Apr 27, 2018)

What is a gender? A miserable pile of secrets!


----------



## OctolingRift (Apr 28, 2018)

If you're a man and think you're a woman you have a mental disorder.  Sucks to see that society thinks this is okay ):


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 28, 2018)

OctolingRift said:


> If you're a man and think you're a woman you have a mental disorder.  Sucks to see that society thinks this is okay ):


It actually sucks that people think it is a bad thing... Has any of them hurt you? or your family? Has one of them actually went to a forum about games claiming that people "different than me" have a mental disorder? Has one of them steal something from you? No? That's what i wanted to read.


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## Vieela (Apr 28, 2018)

In this case - i think it's rather not a question of "make me believe otherwise" - let everyone run their minds freely. The only thing that is obligatory, and that should never EVER be broken is respect. Regardless of your opinion or position on either two or more genders exist, or if it's something you're born with or purely something from a person's mind and much more of these kind of questions, respect is severely needed. IMO, a belief is a thing that shouldn't really be discussed. Believe on what you want, think what you want and say what you want, but if someone differs from your saying, respect them as you'd like your opinion to be respected. What i mean is, don't change your mind. If that's your opinion, let that be. But never change your mind about someone because of what the other might think. Respect eachother. If you think genders are an anatomical fact or an option/thing you're born with the freedom of feeling, that's up to you, and i don't think anyone's in a real "correct" to change such thing.


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## deinonychus71 (Apr 28, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> It actually sucks that people think it is a bad thing... Has any of them hurt you? or your family? Has one of them actually went to a forum about games claiming that people "different than me" have a mental disorder? Has one of them steal something from you? No? That's what i wanted to read.


Note that they didn't say "it's bad".

I think it's fair to ask this : Nature made you this way, and you don't feel great within your body. Is that a disorder or not?
I don't think "having a mental disorder" need to be seen as pejorative here. It's a specific condition. Now does it mean people should mock it, and not be respectful? Hell no.

It's always been my problem with these discussions. Defending people freedom to have sex with whom they please, dress up the way they want and call themselves whatever they want is perfectly fine. But telling people they're simply wrong for not sharing the same views on some things isn't.
I am gay, and I have no problem if someone thinks "being homosexual" is immoral, as long they respect me as a person. Same-wise, I have no problem if a "he" wants to be called a "she" or "shi" or "it" or whatever, and I will respect them and try to call them as they please, but i do not accept when these people either expect me to change my views otherwise I am the worst human being.
And of course I know most people aren't that extreme, but some its most vocal advocates are, and they're being counter-productive.


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## Deleted User (Apr 28, 2018)

I agree with you. You are correct. On the topic of gender, I'd like to present the idea that trans-women are not women and trans-men are not men.


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## The Real Jdbye (Apr 28, 2018)

kbmarinha said:


> I know that, they are still males... And you know what I meant. Same for XXX, still females..


Technically they're both. They have the chromosomes of both genders. They have traits of both genders. And they often have both genitals as well.


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## SG854 (Apr 28, 2018)

-snip-
Is this what you're talking about?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138983/

Domestic violence among lesbian cohabiting couples is 35.4%, almost 2 times the rate of heterosexual couples. Lifetime abuse rates for Trangenders by a partner is higher. Its 34.6% for Transgenders, and 14% for gay and lesbians. Violence in the LGBT community goes under reported and invisible in the Health Care field. It even gets unacknowledged in the LGBT community, they try to hide it because they don't want negative stigma that comes with it, and people using it against them and say LGBT relationships are bad. So it goes under reported. Media doesn't report it, people try to hide it. But since they try to hide abusive relationships they don't get the help they need.

I kinda knew what you were talking about. I remember reading studies about this awhile back and I booked marked it. But since I have a huge ton of bookmarks it took me awhile to find.


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## Whole lotta love (Apr 28, 2018)

*Gender exists on a spectrum
*
There is no biological feature inherent to men or women (speaking genders).

Males *tend to* be taller, have broader shoulders, boxier torso's, etc.
However, this is not *absolute*. I am male and there are females who have more masculine features than I do, so you can't point to my shoulders being broader in _general_ as proof that I am male. I could find a female woman who has more male traits than I do, it doesn't make her a man.
When we see someone who looks like a woman in our society, we take in many different data points and make an educated guess. Tighter clothes, curvier figure, shorter height, wearing feminine colors. However, this is at the end of the day an educated guess. You can't know for certain that person's gender as there isn't a distinct separation between how a man dresses and how a woman dresses, or how broad a male's shoulder's are vs. a woman's shoulders.

As such, non-binary people are people just exist further in the center of this spectrum than most people. If you spent the time to talk to a few nb people earnestly you would likely hear this from them.

This is very similar to sexuality, where we have a spectrum between hetereosexuality and homosexuality, with bisexuality in the middle. These are not rigid positions but a spectrum.

*This is why cultures with more than 2 genders have existed for thousands of years*

If you want to argue that there are only 2 genders, you have to be able to define what a man exactly is, what a woman exactly is, then be able to explain away the exceptions to the rules you've just defined, as well as be able to explain away the numerous cultures around the world that have had non-binary genders for years and years.


inb4 genitalia or chromosomes. How often do you look in someone's pants to see if they have a dick before you say "hey *man*, how's it going?" or do a 23andme before hitting on a person you think is cute.


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## cots (Apr 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Actually it has not been that way since the start, it has actually only been that way since Christian Europeans made it that way. Before Christianity a lot of cultures were both trans friendly and often acknowledged more than 2 genders. Christian Europeans were actually the ones who decided to change definition of gender to biological sex.



Science has been correct from the start.


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## chrisrlink (Apr 28, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> Biologically there are only two genders or to be more specific two sexual "tools" in our biological make up. I'd like to hear a compelling argument as well.



well i had surgury (not really a sex change more like prevent myself from catherization i basicly have both?


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## Futurdreamz (Apr 28, 2018)

I think the fact that you are asking us to change your mind indicates that you may have some doubts about what you believe.


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## Navonod (Apr 28, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Is this what you're talking about?
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138983/
> 
> Domestic violence among lesbian cohabiting couples is 35.4%, almost 2 times the rate of heterosexual couples. Lifetime abuse rates for Trangenders by a partner is higher. Its 34.6% for Transgenders, and 14% for gay and lesbians. Violence in the LGBT community goes under reported and invisible in the Health Care field. It even gets unacknowledged in the LGBT community, they try to hide it because they don't want negative stigma that comes with it, and people using it against them and say LGBT relationships are bad. So it goes under reported. Media doesn't report it, people try to hide it. But since they try to hide abusive relationships they don't get the help they need.
> ...


I've never read that article but basically my point. It happens and goes unnoticed. Common sense. Thanks for the article. 

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Futurdreamz said:


> I think the fact that you are asking us to change your mind indicates that you may have some doubts about what you believe.


It's a challenge.


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## Futurdreamz (Apr 28, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> It's a challenge.



Not everything needs to be a challenge.


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## The Catboy (Apr 28, 2018)

cots said:


> Science has been correct from the start.


Expect science also accepts the trans community and there is also sexes like XXY and much more. You are using an extremely basic level of biology to excuse your bigotry


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## Viri (Apr 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Expect science also accepts the trans community and there is also sexes like XXY and much more. You are using an extremely basic level of biology to excuse your bigotry


What are your chromosomes? Are you one of those odd ones like XYX or XXX?


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## The Catboy (Apr 28, 2018)

Viri said:


> What are your chromosomes? Are you one of those odd ones like XYX or XXX?


My sex is none of your business


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## Kevinpuerta (Apr 28, 2018)

Agree with op


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## TheTechGenius (Apr 28, 2018)

Sex and Gender are the same exact thing, the left just wants to make excuses to justify their actions. Before all this began, when I filled out a job app it use to say "Gender - Male or Female" OR "Sex - Male or Female".

Just because someone changes the definition of a word, doesn't make it correct. You see the left do this kind of thing a lot these days. 

Just because you "Feel" like the opposite sex, doesn't mean you are the opposite sex. Just because a Woman is masculine doesn't mean she is a man. Just because a man is feminine doesn't make him a woman or a t******. It makes him a man that is feminine. This is not hard, its very simple. 

Science doesn't care about your feelings or your politics, science is here so we humans can solve things to get all the facts. And scientists already proved time and time again there is ONLY "Male" and "Female", thats it. Yeah, there are anomalies in human biology, but its not the norm, thats why they are called "anomalies".

Don't take my word for it, go search any well known scientist on the subject, see what they say. But the left also likes to not listen to the actual science and instead listen to what they "feel".


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## Dominator211 (Apr 28, 2018)

OOF I never thought id see the day where id see this on the temp? Whats next sexual orientation questions? as for the problem being asked... well sex is a biological thing male or female. but gender is more of a mental thing. I'm, not one to really care about it. if you are nice and aren't full of shit then your good in my book.


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## Viri (Apr 28, 2018)

TheTechGenius said:


> Sex and Gender are the same exact thing, the left just wants to make excuses to justify their actions. Before all this began, when I filled out a job app it use to say "Gender - Male or Female" OR "Sex - Male or Female".
> 
> Just because someone changes the definition of a word, doesn't make it correct. You see the left do this kind of thing a lot these days.
> 
> ...


B-but Bill Nye said sex is like a spectrum, and he's a [email protected]!


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## SG854 (Apr 28, 2018)

Viri said:


> B-but Bill Nye said sex is like a spectrum, and he's a [email protected]!



Thats so cool. The sound effects and lights.


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## cots (Apr 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Expect science also accepts the trans community and there is also sexes like XXY and much more. You are using an extremely basic level of biology to excuse your bigotry



So now I'm a bigot because I rely on science and not some minorities opinions?


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## NZ_reg (Apr 28, 2018)

I think there is only two. You have a dong - you are man,  you haven't - you are woman. Thats simple. 
You can think about yourself as a male or female, but before you get yourself a penis or get rid of it, it doesn't count. Modern medicine can help. 
As for "xe", "they", "hir", "Apache helicopter" - normal people just shouldn't pay attention and not to indulge this madness.


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## TheTechGenius (Apr 28, 2018)

Viri said:


> B-but Bill Nye said sex is like a spectrum, and he's a [email protected]!



I hope that's a joke. lol. 

But Bill Nye is not a scientist, especially in the field of Human Biology. 

Bill Nye actually has a bachelors degree in mechanical engineering, not even a masters or PHD. lol. So he's one of the last people that should be talking about human biology and claiming it's "Science". Bill Nye is so far from a science guy. He's a washed up TV personality.


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## horokeusama (Apr 28, 2018)

I agree with OP. Being gay is ok, but gender is cleary something defined by science and can't be disconsidered just because some people fantasize they are actual women/men when they're the opposite.
Hermafrodites and trans people are a complicated thing, but it's a clinical/genetic condition, that should be treated OR not if the person wants.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 28, 2018)

Viri said:


> This thread was funny


Disgusting i would say, from both sides.

How the fuck is that hard to agree on a middle solution that benefits both sides, or just respect each others despite whatever the frick they believe on? Pretty sad to see a freaking gaming forum getting so disgusting to the point no one respect anyone anymore, making it a complete mess of a forum.

Again, disgusting. Politics and this kind of stuff has shown to have no place here, people cant talk to each other without starting a shitshow.

Sometimes i really believe i might be the only one or a very especial case that tolerates ever view point and that is in a middle ground...


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## cots (Apr 28, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Disgusting i would say, from both sides.
> 
> How the fuck is that hard to agree on a middle solution that benefits both sides, or just respect each others despite whatever the frick they believe on? Pretty sad to see a freaking gaming forum getting so disgusting to the point no one respect anyone anymore, making it a complete mess of a forum.
> 
> ...



Once you're done forming your own views you will no longer do that. It's part of growing up.


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## lampdemon (Apr 28, 2018)

Sporting events should be separate for trans and hermaphrodites.

On public restrooms, the cheaper option would be to keep it the same, and people should go to the one that matches their genitals.
Making a law for businesses to have a separate room seems like the best option, but it will be costly.


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## Viri (Apr 28, 2018)

lampdemon said:


> Sporting events should be separate for trans and hermaphrodites.
> 
> On public restrooms, the cheaper option would be to keep it the same, and people should go to the one that matches their genitals.
> Making a law for businesses to have a separate room seems like the best option, but it will be costly.


If I ran a business, I'd have unisex bathrooms just because of the cost! That way I don't have to pay for two rooms.  One person only in the room at a time, because fuck bathroom stalls!


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 28, 2018)

cots said:


> Once you're done forming your own views you will no longer do that. It's part of growing up.


I have stablished my own views, im legaly an adult and im far above the 18 years old mark. Being only one sided, or lacking the ability to emphatize and open your mind is something i have stablished and promised to myself to never do. It is extremely disgusting when people argue and attack each others when it is as simple to just tolerate a different point of view...


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## cots (Apr 28, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> I have stablished my own views, im legaly an adult and im far above the 18 years old mark. Being only one sided, or lacking the ability to emphatize and open your mind is something i have stablished and promised to myself to never do. It is extremely disgusting when people argue and attack each others when it is as simple to just tolerate a different point of view...



There is a difference between tolerating other peoples beliefs and forming your own. Tolerating doesn't mean you will change your beliefs because someone else has a different point of view. Liberals preach tolerance and acceptance, but only if you act and say what they do. They also hide behind science, but if you oppose their point of view they take that as a threat and attack you. They do the same thing they are accusing you of doing, but it's okay because you must be a "bigot" because you do not agree with them. They aren't happy with having their own views - they must push them on others and if you don't conform you should be abused, lose your job, go to jail, be humiliated, etc ... We all project our views in some extent onto others, but I don't go around trying to make people think the way that I do. This is a debate, I'm not telling other people what they should think; I'm simply stating what I believe and defending it.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 28, 2018)

cots said:


> There is a difference between tolerating other peoples beliefs and forming your own. Tolerating doesn't mean you will change your beliefs because someone else has a different point of view. Liberals preach tolerance and acceptance, but only if you act and say what they do. They also hide behind science, but if you oppose their point of view they take that as a threat and attack you. They do the same thing they are accusing you of doing, but it's okay because you must be a "bigot" because you do not agree with them. They aren't happy with having their own views - they must push them on others and if you don't conform you should be abused, lose your job, go to jail, be humiliated, etc ... We all project our views in some extent onto others, but I don't go around trying to make people think the way that I do. This is a debate, I'm not telling other people what they should think; I'm simply stating what I believe and defending it.


Never refered to your case, but a few others on this thread. Also, pretty much both sides do that, both hates when their beliefs conflicts with each others and it's indeed a problem because NO ONE can agree on something. The problem will always be with each side, no one is free of being guilty in this matter, that's why i highly called tolerance to BOTH sides, not just calling one to do so.


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## osaka35 (Apr 28, 2018)

DeadlyFoez said:


> That is apples to oranges. Gender is debatable, the earth being flat is just ignorance.



It's only debatable if you haven't bothered to look into it. The field has a lot of research, it's worth looking into. There's "debate", for sure, but not about this. few, if any, in the field would suggest only two genders.




DeadlyFoez said:


> Hence why a more adequate term for this should be evaluated.


Again, bother to look into it before you say there aren't adequate terms. Don't confuse people's misuse for not having appropriate terms.




DeadlyFoez said:


> It is called "'practicing' medicine" for a reason.


meaning....?



DeadlyFoez said:


> It is real and it is happening far too much. Our progressive culture is embracing it. Sadly, many 'progressive' parents are actually pushing this upon their children.
> 
> Where do we know that the influence is coming from? Is it really that child, or is it the parent enforcing their agenda? We need to distinguish those and penalize the parents that push this on their children. Too many 'progressive' parents are making the choice for their children, not the child making the choice.



[citation needed]. Perception of a problem is not the same thing as actually having a problem. And do you feel that gender transitions can happen without a psychological evaluation? why do you believe this to be the case?


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## Kioku_Dreams (Apr 28, 2018)

-snip-



osaka35 said:


> It's only debatable if you haven't bothered to look into it. The field has a lot of research, it's worth looking into. There's "debate", for sure, but not about this. few, if any, in the field would suggest only two genders.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's also research and studies on the earth being flat. It's annoyingly subjective and when you finally form an opinion you tend to get so deep into that it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Human nature.


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## Deleted User (Apr 28, 2018)

IMO, gender and sex mean the same thing, but recently SJWs have started to claim that gender is the new autism spectrum or something
Gender/Sex is generally based on the body you were born with, but for some people they mentally feel like they belong in the other and they get medical aid to transform their body to the other, in that case they are for most intents and purposes (outside the doctor's office), their preferred gender
So far there have only ever been 2 different sets of unique organs of which gender is based on, male or female. Theres also intersex but thats literally just somewhere in between the other 2 hence the name and there are no unique traits to intersex that male or female do not have.
For there to be a third gender, it would have to have traits that male and female don't.

Contrary to what tumblr believes, your spirit animal, favorite clothing style etc are not factors of gender. If you're a guy who dresses like a girl but don't feel like a girl then you're just a crossdresser, not a third gender


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## cots (Apr 28, 2018)

Well, isn't this something. The minority on gbatemp thinks there are more then two genders while the majority thinks there are only two. In a perfect world everyone would get along, but we don't live in a perfect world and in this world the majority vote wins.


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## DeoNaught (Apr 28, 2018)

If you go by the actual definition, there are only two genders, two sexes(is that the right term?)


BUT if you go by the gender _theory_ definition, there are multiple, even millions, of different genders.


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## air2004 (Apr 28, 2018)

Gender ie Sex isn't fluid ... you're either a man or a woman .... a boy or a girl .... It's that fucking simple .
For those who can't seem to understand this simple concept , please allow me to explain in terms that you might understand..
You're either a zero or a one , you're either on or off.... It's really that simple.


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## TheMrIron2 (Apr 28, 2018)

Now time for one of the most dangerous things on the internet, an opinion:

I don't think we need to create a spectrum for something that is already hard-coded in our genetics as XX and XY. I don't mind using a specific pronoun for a person if they really want me to use it, but the whole "Gender is a spectrum!" thing is a little ridiculous. I believe what people call gender is largely based around the person's personality, as there have always been feminine guys and masculine guys (tomboys/tomgirls) - so creating a spectrum for every combination of personalities doesn't make sense.


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## Wizardkoer (Apr 28, 2018)

Gender = sex and there are only two of them; male and female. Anything else is just bullshit that people try make up.


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## Haamu (Apr 28, 2018)

Very much agreed, two sexes determined by genetics; male and female. All things other than that are man-made creations/definitions/meanings that are another subject all together.


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## osaka35 (Apr 28, 2018)

It seems most folks are falling back on "but mah genetics!".

That has to deal with sex, and even that is not binary. it's *usually* binary, but biology is not exact in how it does things. That's how evolution works in the first place! If you think biology dictates only two sexes, and only two ways of expressing those genes, then your understanding of biology is pretty limited. If you think two sexes dictates there be only two genders, then your understanding of sociology, biology, and neurology are really limited.

If you go by what you learned in highschool, I can understand why there's so much hesitation to accept the fuzziness of human sexuality, sex, and gender (all very different topics of conversation, if related in certain ways). but there's more to it, though.


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## leonmagnus99 (Apr 28, 2018)

thats right, theres only 2 genders ._.


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## Deleted-401606 (Apr 28, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Gender is an outdated concept and you can present as basically anything you want to. In that sense sex and gender aren't equal, but in the same way that one can have many different sexual orientations, there's also a spectrum ranging from masculine and feminine presenting that a person might chose to present as



Now everybody do the propaganda!


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## Kingy (Apr 28, 2018)

osaka35 said:


> That has to deal with sex, and even that is not binary.


Mind giving examples? Anything other than XX and XY is merely a mistake. Sex _is not a spectrum._


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## CMDreamer (Apr 28, 2018)

Milenko said:


> Who cares.



Thanks for your brainstorming comment. A clear reflection of your mental abilities.

On topic.
As stated previously, gender and sex are not the same concept, even though most of the time we misleadingly use them both as one.
As such, the very well defined gender (in therms of anatomy and phisiology) of a person doesn't necessarily define it's sexual behaviour.

So answering your question, yes, there are only two genders on humans, even though sometimes people are born having both reproduction apparatus, only one of them is able for reproduction and the other isn't.


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## osaka35 (Apr 28, 2018)

Kingy_ said:


> Mind giving examples? Anything other than XX and XY is merely a mistake. Sex _is not a spectrum._



That's called "poisoning the well". And what you're thinking of as "mistakes" are things like XXY and XXYY. They are syndromes, not mistakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders But yes, this is not a "spectrum".

There's also gene expression to consider, and where the concept of "spectrum" would come into play. Some folks present as feminine female, including vagina and related bits, but have XY chromosomes (testosterone doesn't affect them much). There's a whole range of things like this. XX are female, XY are male...except when they aren't.

And while rare, they are not impossible or unworthy of acknowledgement. They, at any rate, disprove the notion that biology only has binaries. You can say it's more common to have binaries, and safe to assume for the majority of folks, but you can't say biology disproves anything more than binary. 

But gender is a different matter. :3


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## TheMrIron2 (Apr 28, 2018)

Anything that isn't XX and XY is, as even your high school biology will tell you, a genetic slip-up. "Genders" in the sense you are suggesting are completely arbitrary concepts that people have invented. If something I said was incorrect, I'd appreciate it if you enlightened me by explaining it.


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## SG854 (Apr 28, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> And "they" is universally safe, if you're not certain one way or another


There are Gendered languages.

In French the default gender is She. So if they don't know the gender of the person then they stick to she until they find out.
In Dutch unknown people are called He, thats what they default to.
In English we use a Gender Neutral or a Singularized Plural till we find out.

It always amazes me when people look at languages that are masculine, that default to he, and call it a sexist language perpetuating the patriarchy. When there are also other languages that default to the feminine, and use she until they find out the correct gender.

*It* is a good word to use. I never understood why people get offended by this word. When a baby is born we say, is *It* a boy or girl. When the baby is in the womb we say, did you feel *It* move. Or we say, when is *It *due. Or if we hear a door bell ring (pizza delivery person) we say, Who is *it*? Its a perfectly normal singular gender neutral pronoun to use. And a word to use until we find out what the it in question is.


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## osaka35 (Apr 28, 2018)

TheMrIron2 said:


> Anything that isn't XX and XY is, as even your high school biology will tell you, a genetic slip-up. "Genders" in the sense you are suggesting are completely arbitrary concepts that people have invented. If something I said was incorrect, I'd appreciate it if you enlightened me by explaining it.


just check out what I wrote right above you  not necessarily wrong, but incomplete and a little misleading.


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## TheMrIron2 (Apr 28, 2018)

My mistake Osaka, was on the train and gbatemp didn't refresh. I think we've sort of reached an impasse where we both think the other "isn't wrong but not entirely correct", since I'd generally attribute being feminine or masculine to being a personality trait instead of a predetermined biological trait. Until actual research comes (nothing exists that I'm aware of) on that front I'd say the whole thing is inconclusive.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 28, 2018)

osaka35 said:


> It seems most folks are falling back on "but mah genetics!".
> 
> That has to deal with sex, and even that is not binary. it's *usually* binary, but biology is not exact in how it does things. That's how evolution works in the first place! If you think biology dictates only two sexes, and only two ways of expressing those genes, then your understanding of biology is pretty limited. If you think two sexes dictates there be only two genders, then your understanding of sociology, biology, and neurology are really limited.
> 
> If you go by what you learned in highschool, I can understand why there's so much hesitation to accept the fuzziness of human sexuality, sex, and gender (all very different topics of conversation, if related in certain ways). but there's more to it, though.


Actually depending on how old you are, the "what you learned in highschool" excuse doesn't cut it anymore, because they're teaching gender studies in high school level behavioral science now


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## osaka35 (Apr 28, 2018)

TheMrIron2 said:


> My mistake Osaka, was on the train and gbatemp didn't refresh. I think we've sort of reached an impasse where we both think the other "isn't wrong but not entirely correct", since I'd generally attribute being feminine or masculine to being a personality trait instead of a predetermined biological trait. Until actual research comes (nothing exists that I'm aware of) on that front I'd say the whole thing is inconclusive.


I'd wager personality has a lot to do with gene expression, which can heavily depend on environment. Hormones can also be affected by environment. So I'd say it's that ol' impasse of "nature vs nurture"



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Actually depending on how old you are, the "what you learned in highschool" excuse doesn't cut it anymore, because they're teaching gender studies in high school level behavioral science now


That's good to know! There's hope for the future yet.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 28, 2018)

SG854 said:


> *It* is a good word to use. I never understood why people get offended by this word. When a baby is born we say, is *It* a boy or girl. When the baby is in the womb we say, did you feel *It* move. Or we say, when is *It *due. Or if we hear a door bell ring (pizza delivery person) we say, Who is *it*? Its a perfectly normal singular gender neutral pronoun to use. And a word to use until we find out what the it in question is.


That's... Interesting. I definitely hadn't thought about that until now


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## Deleted-401606 (Apr 28, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Actually depending on how old you are, the "what you learned in highschool" excuse doesn't cut it anymore, because they're teaching gender studies in high school level behavioral science now



They teach propaganda in high school yes,that is the most effective way to control the sheep.If your views align with the MSM views,you are nothing more than a sheep that is being used to advance an agenda.


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## StarTrekVoyager (Apr 28, 2018)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gender
"Since the 1960s, it is increasingly common—particularly in academic contexts—to distinguish between sex and gender, the former being taken as inherent biological distinctions and the latter as constructed social and cultural ones. See Wikipedia's article on the Sex and gender distinction."


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## StarTrekVoyager (Apr 28, 2018)

SG854 said:


> There are Gendered languages.
> 
> In French the default gender is She. So if they don't know the gender of the person then they stick to she until they find out.


Actually, in French the default one from a grammar POV is he (il), but we don't have a default one per se.


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## Esjay131 (Apr 28, 2018)

Gender refers to someones 'type', e.g. their behaviour, mannerisms, expression.
Sex refers to biological distinction as determined by the allosomes in their genetic makeup (23rd pair of chromosomes).
Simple as that. There are some genetic issues which result in issues such as 'intersex' individuals. It's been proven by tons of studies that 'transgender' individuals brain structures are more similar to the sex they feel they belong to, then the actual sex they were born as.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 28, 2018)

Esjay131 said:


> Gender refers to someones 'type', e.g. their behaviour, mannerisms, expression.
> Sex refers to biological distinction as determined by the allosomes in their genetic makeup (23rd pair of chromosomes).
> Simple as that. There are some genetic issues which result in issues such as 'intersex' individuals. It's been proven by tons of studies that 'transgender' individuals brain structures are more similar to the sex they feel they belong to, then the actual sex they were born as.


The interesting thing is that the brain structure is actually impacted by hormones, both suplemental and original. So, as I understand it, the prevailing theory (based in observation) is that transgender individuals typically have significantly more testosterone or estrogen from birth than is typical for their sex, causing them to behave (and in many cases appear) closer to the norm of the opposite gender. Hormone therapy helps push things over the edge, one way or another, depending on how the individual would want to proceed


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## Esjay131 (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The interesting thing is that the brain structure is actually impacted by hormones, both suplemental and original. So, as I understand it, the prevailing theory (based in observation) is that transgender individuals typically have significantly more testosterone or estrogen from birth than is typical for their sex, causing them to behave (and in many cases appear) closer to the norm of the opposite gender. Hormone therapy helps push things over the edge, one way or another, depending on how the individual would want to proceed


That is true to a degree, but it does show that there are genetic factors at play for trans people. I think one thing that could benefit trans people is the study of neuroplasticity. Since hormone production is ultimately controlled by the brain, training the brain could lead to better estrogen production/uptake and lowered testosterone production/uptake. Neuroplasticity is quite interesting, and here's a paper on it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3102236/


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## The Catboy (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The interesting thing is that the brain structure is actually impacted by hormones, both suplemental and original. So, as I understand it, the prevailing theory (based in observation) is that transgender individuals typically have significantly more testosterone or estrogen from birth than is typical for their sex, causing them to behave (and in many cases appear) closer to the norm of the opposite gender. Hormone therapy helps push things over the edge, one way or another, depending on how the individual would want to proceed


I would actually like to put a personal note to this. Even as a child most people saw me as "girly" and I was commonly "mistaken" as a girl based on my appearance. I was considered be "gender confused" as a child. As the years went on I forced myself to do what most would see as "male things" and presented myself as gay male because that was honestly easier to fake in high school than coming out as my real self. As an adult though this weighed heavily on me until I eventually got some help and came out as a woman.
Hormones are more than likely a big contributor to my childhood as one would say that I was old enough to know what my gender was. Yet even as a child I knew something wasn't quite right and wasn't something I was growing out of. It also wasn't something I could change by forcing myself to be something that I so clearly wasn't. My gender wasn't something I was able to control and happened despite my attempts pretend like I wasn't a woman.



x65943 said:


> In a strange twist of fate many ninty hackers are trans as well - which may be a reason people here feel so strongly about it.


Actually the vast majority of the hacking crew are either part of the LGBT and or LGBT friendly.


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## cots (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Tell me more about how being closed minded is part of growing up. This is absolute nonsense. It doesn't take much to admit that one as an individual is way to subjective to have an 100% accurate picture of reality. This attitude is why debate culture is on the low level that it is.
> You're an oversensitive manchild who thinks his views are untouchable, you have no evidence to backup your claims (it's not limited to your posts though) and your emotional attachment to the subject or you just being right in general makes you equally a snowflake compared to the people you criticize.



Stooping to personal attacks are we? My views aren't untouchable and I do change my mind about certain things, but I have formed my core beliefs over the years and I will stick by them. I may think I'm right, but that doesn't other people "not right" too. Snowflakes are easily manipulated, change their minds on a whim, have little to no core values of their own, can't deal with their emotions and basically fall into the line of sheep. I think what some people forget is that they were young and did the same things back in their day and then there are others who didn't forget and are exploiting their followers for their own agendas while feeding them nonsense.


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## Captain_N (Apr 29, 2018)

First off, I'm not a hater. I dont care what individuals want to identify as. That said, There are 2 genders and 2 sexes in humans. We are not asexual plants. Those that have both male and female characteristics are a result in errors in the development processes. Normally those beings dont survive. We humans are unique in that we have technology. Natural selection has taken a back seat. Most of the times these individuals that are making up genders and sexes have issues up in the head. Its all in the head actually. What if i said if i identify as a Fox that goes on space missions with his other animal friends. And i demand you see me as a fox and use my proper pronoun. See how asinine that sounds? 
Sorry, your either male,female or a mutation. Sorry but that's the reality. Just be grateful you can express your view freely. If Nazis were in-charge you would have been killed by a single lugar round..... Stay salty my friends....


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> What if i said if i identify as a Fox that goes on space missions with his other animal friends. And i demand you see me as a fox and use my proper pronoun. See how asinine that sounds?


See... when people say things like that, it makes me think they saw something


Spoiler: like this











and took it seriously

(Yes, I'm aware that that's a parody of the original, but as far as I can tell the original was a 4chan gag anyway)


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## cots (Apr 29, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> First off, I'm not a hater. I dont care what individuals want to identify as. That said, There are 2 genders and 2 sexes in humans. We are not asexual plants. Those that have both male and female characteristics are a result in errors in the development processes. Normally those beings dont survive. We humans are unique in that we have technology. Natural selection has taken a back seat. Most of the times these individuals that are making up genders and sexes have issues up in the head. Its all in the head actually. What if i said if i identify as a Fox that goes on space missions with his other animal friends. And i demand you see me as a fox and use my proper pronoun. See how asinine that sounds?
> Sorry, your either male,female or a mutation. Sorry but that's the reality. Just be grateful you can express your view freely. If Nazis were in-charge you would have been killed by a single lugar round..... Stay salty my friends....



Mutations (natures mistakes) are so uncommon I doubt they play a part in people thinking they are the opposite sex. It's just an excuse that is used to try to prove a point. The people using these excuses claim to support science, but only when it suits their needs.


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## DeoNaught (Apr 29, 2018)

Like @TotalInsanity4 said, there are cases, where some has like mixed traits of male and female, and I think they should be slightly respected(To a degree) with what they want to be identified as.
BUT it's an extreme case, and I don't think the smol majority(not even majority, less than that) should apply to everyone.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

DeoNaught said:


> Like @TotalInsanity4 said, there are cases, where some has like mixed traits of male and female, and I think they should be slightly respected(To a degree) with what they want to be identified as.
> BUT it's an extreme case, and I don't think the smol majority(not even majority, less than that) should apply to everyone.


Now hang on, can you clarify what you mean? I just want to make sure that I understand what you're saying


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## DarthDub (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The interesting thing is that the brain structure is actually impacted by hormones, both suplemental and original. So, as I understand it, the prevailing theory (based in observation) is that transgender individuals typically have significantly more testosterone or estrogen from birth than is typical for their sex, causing them to behave (and in many cases appear) closer to the norm of the opposite gender. Hormone therapy helps push things over the edge, one way or another, depending on how the individual would want to proceed


The term you're looking for is Gender Dysphoria. It is not fun to have it either.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

DarthDub said:


> The term you're looking for is Gender Dysphoria. It is not fun to have it either.


Indeed it isn't, I'm sure. The solution is either to transition over to your preferred gender or to undergo hormone therapy to balance yourself back to what would be normal levels for your birth gender. Either way it should be up to the individual, though, and their decision should be respected. What I know for sure is that electroshock "therapy" and summer camp-like events DON'T work, nor are they typically welcome (or in most cases even _safe_) to the individual typically dealing with the struggle


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## DeoNaught (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Now hang on, can you clarify what you mean? I just want to make sure that I understand what you're saying


I'm talking about people who have like a micro penis(actual medical term), and stuff. 

"A micropenis is typically diagnosed at birth. The condition can be caused by irregular hormone levels during the third trimester of pregnancy."
"
Rare
Fewer than 200,000 US cases per year
"
Basically weird Hormone levels, I thought it was with something else, but it's not.

it's just mixed and unbalanced levels of Hormones.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

DeoNaught said:


> I'm talking about people who have like a micro penis(actual medical term), and stuff.
> 
> "A micropenis is typically diagnosed at birth. The condition can be caused by irregular hormone levels during the third trimester of pregnancy."
> "
> ...


Well, non-typical hormone levels can manifest in a lot more ways than just that, and a lot of them are mental. You can't really judge a person in this situation solely by the size of their genitalia or breasts, if that's what you mean


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## DeoNaught (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well, non-typical hormone levels can manifest in a lot more ways than just that, and a lot of them are mental. You can't really judge a person in this situation solely by the size of their genitalia or breasts, if that's what you mean


I'm not judging them (I hope), but in those cases, where they have both "traits", I'd say they can't really be connected to either man or women as much, so I'd say in Extreme cases like these, I don't see much of a problem with them Choosing what they want(with some logical limitations ofc)


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## Joeado123 (Apr 29, 2018)

Well, some people believe that being transgender is stupid and all that stuff but actually it's not.If you think about it a moment, you can't actually say why somebody feel like this. Is this because somebody  is different that this makes him/her stupid or that she/he's having a big mental illness? I think that it's because people doesn't know why does some people feel that way.When there's no scientific fact to prove it people seem to think that this is an illness or something because It's against how they see things.As I am transgender, I often said to me that this is stupid and I'm still clueless why I feel like that but the important is that I'm happy with all of this. So, I think that it's not my business how others think of me and I will accept their arguments against me because their arguments are as valid as mine. I know how somes feel about that because I felt like that the first time as well.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

DeoNaught said:


> I'm not judging them (I hope), but in those cases, where they have both "traits", I'd say they can't really be connected to either man or women as much, so I'd say in Extreme cases like these, I don't see much of a problem with them Choosing what they want(with some logical limitations ofc)


... I suppose I don't quite understand why you feel the need to include the "in extreme cases" qualifier... why not just let people choose what they want to be based on what they feel is best for themselves?


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## Esjay131 (Apr 29, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> First off, I'm not a hater. I dont care what individuals want to identify as. That said, There are 2 genders and 2 sexes in humans. We are not asexual plants. Those that have both male and female characteristics are a result in errors in the development processes. Normally those beings dont survive. We humans are unique in that we have technology. Natural selection has taken a back seat. Most of the times these individuals that are making up genders and sexes have issues up in the head. Its all in the head actually. What if i said if i identify as a Fox that goes on space missions with his other animal friends. And i demand you see me as a fox and use my proper pronoun. See how asinine that sounds?
> Sorry, your either male,female or a mutation. Sorry but that's the reality. Just be grateful you can express your view freely. If Nazis were in-charge you would have been killed by a single lugar round..... Stay salty my friends....





TotalInsanity4 said:


> ... I suppose I don't quite understand why you feel the need to include the "in extreme cases" qualifier... why not just let people choose what they want to be based on what they feel is best for themselves?


Because of schadenfreude. People love to completely disregard proper science for 'pseudoscience'.


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## pustal (Apr 29, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> First off, I'm not a hater. I dont care what individuals want to identify as. That said, There are 2 genders and 2 sexes in humans. We are not asexual plants. Those that have both male and female characteristics are a result in errors in the development processes. Normally those beings dont survive. We humans are unique in that we have technology. Natural selection has taken a back seat. Most of the times these individuals that are making up genders and sexes have issues up in the head. Its all in the head actually. What if i said if i identify as a Fox that goes on space missions with his other animal friends. And i demand you see me as a fox and use my proper pronoun. See how asinine that sounds?
> Sorry, your either male,female or a mutation. Sorry but that's the reality. Just be grateful you can express your view freely. If Nazis were in-charge you would have been killed by a single lugar round..... Stay salty my friends....



The gender vs sex thing has to do with sepparating sex as the biological thing and gender as the expected role in society, i.e. a social construct around sex, and hence the n genders derive from new constructs. I have to say however, that that is what I don't get: if you don't like the label society has put on to you, why fight for a new label instead of fighting not to be labelled?


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## KingVamp (Apr 29, 2018)

Meant to mention this before. Using the intersex term for transgender people is not only wrong, but only confuses people into thinking they are the same thing. Not that I think that happens often anymore. I could be wrong. 

As for the differences in the brain, even if that's the case, I don't understand why they can't just be a feminine male or masculine female rather than changing their gender altogether. That said, I'm not transgender. While there might be attention seekers, I'm not blind to the fact that there are people that truly feel discomfort with their own body. Again, that said, I do think they are too many "gender terms" that are basically saying the same thing or unnecessary, and that's before the joke genders come in.  

Honestly, most people probably don't even care about what others identify as until it comes to dating and sex specific areas. While I do think it is fair to have more gender specific and unisex places, I don't think it is fair to get rid of places for people that do want the typical specific sex places.


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

cots said:


> Stooping to personal attacks are we? My views aren't untouchable and I do change my mind about certain things, but I have formed my core beliefs over the years and I will stick by them. I may think I'm right, but that doesn't other people "not right" too. Snowflakes are easily manipulated, change their minds on a whim, have little to no core values of their own, can't deal with their emotions and basically fall into the line of sheep. I think what some people forget is that they were young and did the same things back in their day and then there are others who didn't forget and are exploiting their followers for their own agendas while feeding them nonsense.



It was more of an observation, but I will admit that my subjective view of the situation got in my way and it therefore turned out to be more of a personal thing . You also handled the provocation really sovereign and I respect you for that.
We can agree to disagree on some parts of the definition of a "snowflake", however, the reason I see core believes as rather problematic than a good thing is the same reason I'm mainly against the idea of many genders in the first place.



FanmadeEndings said:


> The main problem I see with the multiple gender thing is that they are barely used in a descriptive context, but rather in a context of identity. (That phenomenon is not limited to that topic though.) Identity ideologies in themselves are pretty dangerous imo, as they tend to put people in a position where they would rather follow an irrational dogma than what they would choose without that identity, only based on the fact that that's just what or who they are. I do realize that the various number of social genders are a try to break out from the classic identities "man" and "woman", but imo, it just makes it worse. You can, for example, be a rather feminin man without having to use an extra complicated word for it. (Chances are that people wont get what you want to tell them by just using that word anyway. That some people would treat that reaction as an insult doesn't help a constructive handling either.) The key is to use "man" descriptive and not as something that is part of your identity.



If your core believes are wrong or contradictory and you don't challenge even your core views from time to time, you will end up doing certain things just because it's part of your identity (wich opinions are a big part of). They can easily become an irrational dogma. What I mean by all of this isn't to be weak minded and change your opinion about everything everyday, but to be capable of changing even your core believes when presented irrefutable evidence. Otherwhise, you not only give up on your objectiveness but also your personal freedom to have an as accurate as possible picture of reality. And I know I also fail to get around my own personality and believes from time to time, wich is one of the reasons why this is so important to me. It's not a thing you decide on and go with, but rather a life long battle.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Also if some people who claim that social genders are a scientifically relevant phenomena would care to link sources, that would be great.


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## Stwert (Apr 29, 2018)

What the actual f*. We can’t change your mind, there are only two genders. Anyone who says anything to the contrary is talking utter arse gravy.

There is man and there is woman. End of.


Now, how you want to combine those two, well that’s a different story. We’re all gloriously different in who we choose to share our junk with. That’s part of what makes the world such a varied and interesting place to live. But that’s sexual orientation. Not the same thing as gender by any stretch of the imagination.


(Oh and of course I’m not counting gender reassignment. Sorry, doesn’t actually change your basic genetic makeup. Still genetically man or woman. But hey, if that’s what you want to do, go for it, why not. Welcome to the diverse, windswept and interesting world).


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

pustal said:


> The gender vs sex thing has to do with sepparating sex as the biological thing and gender as the expected role in society, i.e. a social construct around sex, and hence the n genders derive from new constructs. I have to say however, that that is what I don't get: if you don't like the label society has put on to you, why fight for a new label instead of fighting not to be labelled?


That's one I actually CAN answer; it's because we as humans are hardwired to be a communal species, and the younger generation especially are trying to seek that out as they feel they're being estranged by the older ones. By creating names for a personal identity or quirk (in this case, gender, but it also applies to things like autism, sexuality, and various mental disorders that have symptoms in common with each other), you can group around people that share that same "label" and be confident that you will have a relatively shared experience. In that sense, the labels are not to create a target for themselves, nor is it to strictly make them feel special; it's more of an end to a journey of self-discovery


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## BlueFox gui (Apr 29, 2018)

there are only 2 biological genders
you can born with dick or vagina
or there is a third thing?


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Also if some people who claim that social genders are a scientifically relevant phenomena would care to link sources, that would be great.


Well... The thing is, it's not, per se, or at least not relevant to the hard sciences. There are studies ongoing to determine the cause of gender dysphoria, because no one actually knows what causes it, just that HRT is effective at treating it, but the only people who really seem to care about researching social gender are socioligists, and that only appears to be because they're interested in the differences and similarities between cultures. So, I suppose the answer to that is no, if only because there's a relative lack of interest due to it not being medically pressing

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



BlueFox gui said:


> there are only 2 biological genders
> you can born with dick or vagina
> or there is a third thing?


"Biological gender" is a misnomer, you're thinking of "sex"


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## JellyPerson (Apr 29, 2018)

Last time I checked, gender meant the same thing as sex


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## Seriel (Apr 29, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> Last time I checked, gender meant the same thing as sex


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction


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## BlueFox gui (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well... The thing is, it's not, per se, or at least not relevant to the hard sciences. There are studies ongoing to determine the cause of gender dysphoria, because no one actually knows what causes it, just that HRT is effective at treating it, but the only people who really seem to care about researching social gender are socioligists, and that only appears to be because they're interested in the differences and similarities between cultures. So, I suppose the answer to that is no, if only because there's a relative lack of interest due to it not being medically pressing
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


who cares
my statement can be right or wrong
but one thing for sure is
there IS something besides penis or vagina?
some people can born with half of both (it's rare)
but this is another story


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## Stwert (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well... The thing is, it's not, per se, or at least not relevant to the hard sciences. There are studies ongoing to determine the cause of gender dysphoria, because no one actually knows what causes it, just that HRT is effective at treating it, but the only people who really seem to care about researching social gender are socioligists, and that only appears to be because they're interested in the differences and similarities between cultures. So, I suppose the answer to that is no, if only because there's a relative lack of interest due to it not being medically pressing
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



I always find it surprising that there are studies at all.
Just leave alone, let people do whatever the hell makes them happy. Don't make your life miserable in order to conform to a label.
This isn't a new phenomena, people experimenting with their sexuality has been around for about as long as people have.

Mind you, scientists will investigate anything to justify their pay cheque, remember the "why do cornflakes go soggy when you pour milk on them" ffs.


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## JellyPerson (Apr 29, 2018)

From a purely scientific basis there are only two genders
But people are people so they want to be described as there gender being something other than those two


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

Stwert said:


> I always find it surprising that there are studies at all.
> Just leave alone, let people do whatever the hell makes them happy. Don't make your life miserable in order to conform to a label.
> This isn't a new phenomena, people experimenting with their sexuality has been around for about as long as people have.



So you're saying a people who state that they identify as a certain gender are not labeling themselves and aren't putting themeslves in danger of creating a dogma as a part of their identity?
You can experiment with your sexuality without having a name for it. 



Stwert said:


> Mind you, scientists will investigate anything to justify their pay cheque, remember the "why do cornflakes go soggy when you pour milk on them" ffs.



Great, another straw man, just what that thread needed. /s


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## Stwert (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> So you're saying a people who state that they identify as a certain gender are not labeling themselves and aren't putting themeslves in danger of creating a dogma as a part of their identity?
> You can experiment with your sexuality without having a name for it.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm saying why does everything have to be labelled. If you want to label everything you'd end up with a hell of a list. At the end of the day, what difference does it make who does what, to whom and with what.


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## Daisy (Apr 29, 2018)

Such an old discussion to have, and usually pretty pointless too, as it's incredibly hard to change someone's opinions on these matters.

Even harder when you find yourself on both sides of the fence, as well. Sure, I only believe in 2 genders (although, idc about nonbinary people saying they're neither as long as they don't make up pronouns), but as far as I, or anyone else should be concerned, if someone is dysphoric and wants to be the opposite gender to their birth sex, then it should be allowed and supported. That said, the amount of 'transgender' people doing it with no dysphoria is harmful to both themselves and transgender people as a whole, and, honestly, I wish it would stop.

BTW, if you're one of the people saying that "a man is a man he cant cut off his dick and take hormones and be a woman XDD" then you are literally just a bigot, especially considering that someone doing such a thing does not hurt anyone in any way.


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

Stwert said:


> I'm saying why does everything have to be labelled. If you want to label everything you'd end up with a hell of a list. At the end of the day, what difference does it make who does what, to whom and with what.



I agree.  So are you against the idea of many social genders? More labels, they tend to make things more complicated. Right?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Daisies said:


> BTW, if you're one of the people saying that "a man is a man he cant cut off his dick and take hormones and be a woman XDD" then you are literally just a bigot, especially considering that someone doing such a thing does not hurt anyone in any way.



How is observing a factual state bigotry? I'm not saying you should hate those individuals for it, but the statement that you can not change DNA in a way a person could completely change gender in a biological sense is factual truth.

Edit: Overread the "dysphoric" part. My bad. Makes a lot more sense now.


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## Stwert (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> I agree.  So are you against the idea of many social genders? More labels, they tend to make things more complicated. Right?
> 
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> ...




I may be an old and past it dude compared to all you whippersnappers on here. But I’m still open minded.


I’m not against anything at all. I’m perfectly happy for people to express themselves in any way they want. I don’t care who wants to do what to whatever other gender. I have no problem with a person having gender reassessment, if you’re x trapped in x body, hell yeah, fix it. We should be an open and accepting society.


But yes, I think too many labels just complicate matters more than they need to be. As I see it there are three basic groups for each gender, and they are the same.


Boy like girl.

Boy likes boy.

Boy will partner with anyone.


Girl likes boy.

Girl likes girl.

Girl will partner with anyone.


There may well be sub-sections of those where people have sex changes, or whatever. But at the end of the day, those six groups are what it all boils down to. Why does it need to be more complex than that? Life is a complicated enough thing as it is. 

Or maybe I’m just too old and out of date. I’ll ask the wife, she’s 10 years younger than me


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

Stwert said:


> I may be an old and past it dude compared to all you whippersnappers on here. But I’m still open minded.
> 
> 
> I’m not against anything at all. I’m perfectly happy for people to express themselves in any way they want. I don’t care who wants to do what to whatever other gender. I have no problem with a person having gender reassessment, if you’re x trapped in x body, hell yeah, fix it. We should be an open and accepting society.
> ...


I'd say there are five, not three (add "<gender> likes no one romantically or sexually and <gender> likes anyone presenting as certain gender(s), but isn't necessarily sexually attracted to genetalia within those groups), although we're now getting into the territory of sexuality rather than gender


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## erikas (Apr 29, 2018)

As a concept gender is meaningless, theres biological sex, then theres how you chose to conduct yourself. Biological sex is real and while each individual does not strictly conform to things that are considered male or female, there are clear differences between then when you look at trends. Gender is a poor attempt to deny that the sexes have biological differences that express themselves both physically and mentally.


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## TheMrIron2 (Apr 29, 2018)

Since LGBT labelling was mentioned in this thread, I may as well mention that as a bisexual person I'm really confused about the whole movement. Your orientation shouldn't define you or change you as a person, if you ask me.

The issue I have is that the community can't seem to decide what it wants. On one hand, they're just asking to be treated normally. On the other hand, they have their own flag but not only that, their own parades and festivals. Where's the "Straight Pride" parades?


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

TheMrIron2 said:


> Since LGBT labelling was mentioned in this thread, I may as well mention that as a bisexual person I'm really confused about the whole movement. Your orientation shouldn't define you or change you as a person, if you ask me.
> 
> The issue I have is that the community can't seem to decide what it wants. On one hand, they're just asking to be treated normally. On the other hand, they have their own flag but not only that, their own parades and festivals. Where's the "Straight Pride" parades?



Also a bisexual and I completely agree. Although, as you mentioned, my sexuality really shouldn't matter for my arguments.


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## Navonod (Apr 29, 2018)

TheMrIron2 said:


> Since LGBT labelling was mentioned in this thread, I may as well mention that as a bisexual person I'm really confused about the whole movement. Your orientation shouldn't define you or change you as a person, if you ask me.
> 
> The issue I have is that the community can't seem to decide what it wants. On one hand, they're just asking to be treated normally. On the other hand, they have their own flag but not only that, their own parades and festivals. Where's the "Straight Pride" parades?


My boyfriend made a good point about the Straight pride deal. Being straight is the norm and until recently no one was attacked for being straight so that's why there are gay pride parades. Basically saying we're here we're queer get over it. Honestly as a predominantly straight guy I don't think we need straight pride parades. But no one is stopping you from putting one together.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 29, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> My boyfriend made a good point about the Straight pride deal. Being straight is the norm and until recently no one was attacked for being straight so that's why there are gay pride parades. Basically saying we're here we're queer get over it. Honestly as a predominantly straight guy I don't think we need straight pride parades. But no one is stopping you from putting one together.


Wait, you say you are straight but mentioned a boyfriend...


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> My boyfriend made a good point about the Straight pride deal. Being straight is the norm and until recently no one was attacked for being straight so that's why there are gay pride parades. Basically saying we're here we're queer get over it. Honestly as a predominantly straight guy I don't think we need straight pride parades. But no one is stopping you from putting one together.


I agree wholeheartedly with that. There's also the factor of historical systemic oppression; the same reason why "Black Lives Matter" and "Black power" is acceptable, while "white power" is... What it is...


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## sarkwalvein (Apr 29, 2018)

This thread is hard to follow. I think it would be great if there was such a thread on a similar topic with actual conversation, points of view and reasoning. Instead of popular opinions just re-spread, shitposting and memeing, and also very defensive replies that discourage conversation instead of engaging on it... of course, having a conversation in the middle of shitposting, memeing, etc. is quite hard.


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## Navonod (Apr 29, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Wait, you say you are straight but mentioned a boyfriend...
> View attachment 121740


You missed a key word. Predominantly.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 29, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> You missed a key word. Predominantly.


Aw, yup, the "made" one. Silly me, but still 0:


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## porkiewpyne (Apr 29, 2018)

A reminder to everyone. This thread (and subforum) is for serious discussions only. I do NOT want to see any more rubbish posts and memes.


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## Esjay131 (Apr 29, 2018)

Since *some *apparently people aren't reading the posts I've made, if anyone is genuinely interested in the sciences and their research on transgender, gender, and sex, just PM me. As @porkiewpyne stated, he doesn't want to see any more rubbish, and I'm done with seeing people ignoring scientific research because they believe their own opinion to be more accurate than fact.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

Esjay131 said:


> Since *some *apparently people aren't reading the posts I've made, if anyone is genuinely interested in the sciences and their research on transgender, gender, and sex, just PM me. As @porkiewpyne stated, he doesn't want to see any more rubbish, and I'm done with seeing people ignoring scientific research because they believe their own opinion to be more accurate than fact.


Actually I'm genuinely interested, if you can share studies, either here or via PM. All the ones I found were sensationalist crock from 2015 after the "Caitlyn Jenner debacle" and all the articles I've read recently say research is ongoing, so I wouldn't mind seeing hard science one way or the other


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> My boyfriend made a good point about the Straight pride deal. Being straight is the norm and until recently no one was attacked for being straight so that's why there are gay pride parades. Basically saying we're here we're queer get over it. Honestly as a predominantly straight guy I don't think we need straight pride parades. But no one is stopping you from putting one together.



The way I see it is, yes, it is plausible that those parades exist given what happened in the past, however, that doesn't take away their harmfull aspects. After all, too much pride and separating one group of people from another is what caused this whole problem in the first place. There are many who profile themselves over their uncommon sexuality and if we want people to be treated equally worthy we shouldn't promote this imo.


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## TheMrIron2 (Apr 29, 2018)

Of course being straight is the norm - hence why there are no straight pride parades - but think about it. If gay people are trying to become "norm", why are they trying to stand out? That's just what I'm trying to get across. I think the whole "Hell yeah! Look at us! We're *gay*!!" mentality isn't going to make those people more normal or equal, since they're standing out by doing that.

Also, it's really interesting to me that there are so many people in the LGBT category involved in Nintendo homebrew scenes - at least half the devs I know are.


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with that. There's also the factor of historical systemic oppression; the same reason why "Black Lives Matter" and "Black power" is acceptable, while "white power" is... What it is...



Now how does a historical background justify fighting fire with fire? How does it justify provoking the same contemptuous tendencies that lead to this, only from and towards a different group of people? Wouldn't you say this promotes racism of black people towards white people? Again, I agree it's plausible this is how it turned out to be, but I strongly disagree with it being acceptable.


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## x65943 (Apr 29, 2018)

TheMrIron2 said:


> Of course being straight is the norm - hence why there are no straight pride parades - but think about it. If gay people are trying to become "norm", why are they trying to stand out? That's just what I'm trying to get across. I think the whole "Hell yeah! Look at us! We're *gay*!!" mentality isn't going to make those people more normal or equal, since they're standing out by doing that.
> 
> Also, it's really interesting to me that there are so many people in the LGBT category involved in Nintendo homebrew scenes - at least half the devs I know are.


An answer may be that lgbt people tend to be bullied and mistreated. Then they find an online community where they belong and are treated well.

They spend more time on the computer, and some happen to start learning to code etc. Eventually the pool of people that make up the hacking crowd involve this group and other traditional social outcasts.

Another reason may be that there are more people who would identify as lgbt in general society if it was more accepted - but who never really explore that. Online and in niche circles these topics may be discussed and explored in detail leading to people identifying with groups they may never have identified with had they stuck to real world interactions.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Now how does a historical background justify fighting fire with fire? How does it justify provoking the same contemptuous tendencies that lead to this, only from and towards a different group of people? Wouldn't you say this promotes racism of black people towards white people? Again, I agree it's plausible this is how it turned out to be, but I strongly disagree with it being acceptable.


I'm confused, do you see Pride as an event where gays mock straight people and say that they're in any way better than them?...

And no, I would not say that Black Lives Matter promotes or produces racism in any way towards white people, but that's another topic


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm confused, do you see Pride as an event where gays mock straight people and say that they're in any way better than them?...



The whole concept of being proud of a thing you have no influence on is just absurd to me. I was mainly talking about you thinking "black power" being acceptable when it leads to more racism.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> The whole concept of being proud of a thing you have no influence on is just absurd to me. I was mainly talking about you thinking "black power" being acceptable when it leads to more racism.


Does it? Whenever I've seen it in context, it's always been for a Black person that's done something exceptional, like come up with a cure for a disease or take a stand against something unjust. I've never seen it used to justify oppressing the majority population (which they don't have the tools to do anyway)

On the subject of Pride, though, it's not so much that people are proud of being gay so much as proud of being able to be out of the closet without harm of self. I've actually heard some rather disheartening stories of people peeling off stickers and face paint on the way home from pride because they know that if they get off the subway wearing it there will be a group of radical haters on the other end ready to beat them within an inch of their life


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Does it? Whenever I've seen it in context, it's always been for a Black person that's done something exceptional, like come up with a cure for a disease or take a stand against something unjust. I've never seen it used to justify oppressing the majority population (which they don't have the tools to do anyway)



Seems you have simply not experienced racism of black people towards white people yet. It does exist and I will link video material when I get home. And no, it's not "more harmless" than any other form of radical identity ideology.


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## Minox (Apr 29, 2018)

I'm usually rather live and let go regarding these kind of topics. I do not care one bit whether there are two or more genders and people can identify as whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.

I am not going to make any attempts to remember any new gender pronouns as I consider that a complete waste of time, but I am perfectly willing to refer to someone as the other gender if they're transitioning and if that's unwanted I can always refer to them by their name instead.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Seems you have simply not experienced racism of black people towards white people yet. It does exist and I will link video material when I get home. And no, it's not "more harmless" than any other form of radical identity ideology.


Oh I believe that there are radically violent black people, same as any other race, and I'd even believe that some of them may use the Black Power platform to justify their hate, but that's not why it exists, nor does that in any way equate to systemic oppression

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Minox said:


> I'm usually rather live and let go regarding these kind of topics. I do not care one bit whether there are two or more genders and people can identify as whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I am not going to make any attempts to remember any new gender pronouns as I consider that a complete waste of time, but I am perfectly willing to refer to someone as the other gender if they're transitioning and if that's unwanted I can always refer to them by their name instead.


That's basically where I sit on it, too


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## LittleFlame (Apr 29, 2018)

The last time I checked here it was about genders, now it's about black people... yeah seems legit


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Oh I believe that there are radically violent black people, same as any other race, and I'd even believe that some of them may use the Black Power platform to justify their hate, but that's not why it exists, nor does that in any way equate to systemic oppression



It doesn't matter what the intention of a concept is, as long as it causes factual harm you can criticize it with very good reason.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> It doesn't matter what the intention of a concept is, as long as it causes factual harm you can criticize it with very good reason.


Criticize all you want, it's still a minority that doesn't represent a movement. And I'll side with @LittleFlame, as well, it's ridiculous that the conversation swung the way it did and I'm a little bit baffled that you latched onto that topic, of all things, given that it was an offhand comparison that I made


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

LittleFlame said:


> The last time I checked here it was about genders, now it's about black people... yeah seems legit



Not about black people but about promoting identities, as in promoting identities of black people. The gender debate is strongly related to identity politics, so are concepts such as "black power". I don't see the issue in exploring this debate further.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Criticize all you want, it's still a minority that doesn't represent a movement. And I'll side with @LittleFlame, as well, it's ridiculous that the conversation swung the way it did and I'm a little bit baffled that you latched onto that topic, of all things, given that it was an offhand comparison that I made



Well, tell me about the benefits of that movement. To promote identity further? Do you think it helps to reduce racism?


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## LittleFlame (Apr 29, 2018)

Well fuckin of course it did, it helped promote that in some states, Black lives matter was very influential and even helped with certain scandals, recent one that comes to mind would be the Baltimore Police scandal.
Saying that a movement to promote equality has no benefits is truly ignorant and shows how sheltered you are from reality.

And in regarding to the ACTUAL topic

There are two genders, there is no middle ground. I do not believe in Non-binary or any other gender, as such I shall not use any made up genders or Pronouns, you're either a he or a she, and if you choose to live your life as another gender as you were born as, that's fine by me. Just don't shove it in my face please.


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## 3DSPoet (Apr 29, 2018)

Well, since this has spiraled from a gender discussion to an all-out discussion on equality...I'll chime in again.

The basic problem, in my opinion, is that people don't WANT to be treated equally.  People want to be given more than the next guy, girl, or <custom gender here>.  Add to that idea that people, in general, are horrible to one another and are practically incapable of treating each other as equals...

There are lots of white folk who think they're better than others because their skin is light....yet there's plenty of us white people who tan (real or fake) to get dark skin.  

There are lots of black folk who still think they deserve special treatment because people owned black slaves in the US prior to the Civil War.

There are lots of women who still think they deserve preferential treatment because women were told to stay in the kitchen and make babies in the mid-to-late 20th century.

There are lots of other people (LGBT, other ethnic minorities, etc) who still think they have to be in the spotlight and be recognized in order to validate their existence.

There are government mandated programs that REQUIRE most of this to continue.

Equal Opportunity Employers and Affirmative Action laws REQUIRE a business to meet a certain quota of racial and gender diversity.  This leads to a couple of points...

If an employer, by choice or by chance, does not have enough minority workers, they are required, by law, to hire a minority...  What this means is, if given a highly qualified white candidate and a less qualified minority candidate, they are required to hire the minority to be in compliance with the law.  In reverse, if there is a highly qualified minority and a less qualified white candidate, there's nothing stopping the employer from hiring the more qualified candidate.  The same goes for a male candidate vs. a female candidate.  

Granted, if people were honest and unbiased, the color of a person's skin or their gender would NEVER be considered in the process.  But there are still plenty of racist, sexist people out there who would still hire a less qualified candidate because they were white, which is why these laws exist.

In my opinion, anyone who has to shout at the crowd "look at me!  I'm here!  Notice me, Senpai!" is a weak, pathetic individual.  

If you want ME to notice you, then be remarkable. Be interesting.  Be amazing!  Don't shout at me that you're gay or you identify as a 5th level Sentarian Mockskul Warrior. Don't lecture me on why I'm wrong because I'm a straight, white, male who believes in marriage.

If you are a good person, I don't need to know your race, gender, or sexual orientation.  If you are worth knowing, it'll be because of how you treat people and how you make other people feel.  It'll have absolutely nothing to do with what color your skin is, what is or isn't between your legs, what god or gods you follow, or what your eating habits are.

Be a good person.  Be remarkable.  Be amazing.  Be kind.  Be humble.  Be human, because no matter how your body or brain is configured...that's what we all are!


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

LittleFlame said:


> Well fuckin of course it did, it helped promote that in some states, Black lives matter was very influential and even helped with certain scandals, recent one that comes to mind would be the Baltimore Police scandal.
> Saying that a movement to promote equality has no benefits is truly ignorant and shows how sheltered you are from reality.



Your emotional reaction tells me this means a lot to you and I'd be interested in reading more about your view on the subject. However, I fail to see how me not knowing certain things makes me ignorant towards them if I haven't even been confronted with them up until this point in the debate. Maybe, instead of offending me, your argumentation would look a lot better if you cared to link sources.


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## Eddypikachu (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Your emotional reaction tells me this means a lot to you and I'd be interested in reading more about your view on the subject. However, I fail to see how me not knowing certain things makes me ignorant towards them if I haven't even been confronted with them up until this point in the debate. Maybe, instead of offending me, your argumentation would look a lot better if you cared to link sources.


If you really are interested you'd take the 2 seconds it takes to google it and read it up yourself instead of wanting everything to be spoonfed to you imo


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## dAVID_ (Apr 29, 2018)

This thread is still alive?

Just remember a rule of thumb: You're free to be whoever you want, but not shove it down people's throats.


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

Eddypikachu said:


> If you really are interested you'd take the 2 seconds it takes to google it and read it up yourself instead of wanting everything to be spoonfed to you imo



Yes, I could have done that, but I fail to see how it is problematic that I did not. I do not have an agenda that would require me to defend this movement, so how is me trying to discuss with people I know to have a different mindset than me the wrong thing to do?


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## Eddypikachu (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Yes, I could have done that, but I fail to see how it is problematic that I did not. I do not have an agenda that would require me to defend this movement, so how is me trying to discuss with people I know to have a different mindset than me the wrong thing to do?


When did I say it was a wrong thing to do? At this point I really feel like you're just sealioning tbh


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

Eddypikachu said:


> When did I say it was a wrong thing to do? At this point I really feel like you're just sealioning tbh



Because you implied it to be the "right" thing to do to just look it up for myself when my point is that I would rather like to learn how people with a different mindset than me see it.


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## LittleFlame (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Your emotional reaction tells me this means a lot to you and I'd be interested in reading more about your view on the subject. However, I fail to see how me not knowing certain things makes me ignorant towards them if I haven't even been confronted with them up until this point in the debate. Maybe, instead of offending me, your argumentation would look a lot better if you cared to link sources.


I have no emotional attachment in the slightest, I live in the Netherlands where it isn't a big thing, nor do I care for these kinds of movements. If you find that little offensive, and you "Care" but can't manage a quick google search then I feel like you're in this just to argue, not to convince anyone to your ideas.


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## FanmadeEndings (Apr 29, 2018)

LittleFlame said:


> I have no emotional attachment in the slightest, I live in the Netherlands where it isn't a big thing, nor do I care for these kinds of movements. If you find that little offensive, and you "Care" but can't manage a quick google search then I feel like you're in this just to argue, not to convince anyone to your ideas.



How did I convince anyone to believe anything? I did never make the statement that there were no benefits, I asked a person with a different atitude towards the subject about their opinion. I do not have an agenda in wich I would need to defend an identity movement, so why should I do another persons research when I could just as well learn it from that person who is also more likely to already have done that exact research?

Edit: I am not saying I would not fact check by myself later on. For now, I am interested in other peoples opinions.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 29, 2018)

FanmadeEndings said:


> Well, tell me about the benefits of that movement. To promote identity further? Do you think it helps to reduce racism?


I genuinely do. It highlights positive things done by minority groups that would otherwise be swept under the rug, many times intentionally, and in the case of BLM it put a HUGE spotlight on an ongoing, deeply-rooted issue in American society that many people even today refuse to acknowledge


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## SG854 (Apr 29, 2018)

StarTrekVoyager said:


> Actually, in French the default one from a grammar POV is he (il), but we don't have a default one per se.


I heard from someone that speaks French that they default to she when the gender is unknown, unless they are lying.

Une personne (Elle). In French it’s in the language, feminine till gender is known, from what i’ve heard.



TotalInsanity4 said:


> That's... Interesting. I definitely hadn't thought about that until now


Ya I saw someone mention it and I was like that’s a good point I’m gunna also bring up that point. We use “it” and “they” depending on context.


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## Coconut (Apr 29, 2018)

What other choices are there? You either have a freaking vagina or a dick. Or you have a vagina and think 'Hmm, I want to be a man', or the other way around.

Wait I forgot there is Asia, there are ladyboys over there. We have more than two


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## DrkBeam (Apr 29, 2018)

Gender is a social construct, it will be defined a the culture allows it, a person could identify themselves as the other sex because their brain was designed as the opposite sex, the same goes for the sexual orientation, environment and genetics creates a big factor and not learning by experience. The sex is different, it doesn't need to be labeled for more than two sexes, is better explained as a genetic disorder or interaction of hormones.


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## LittleFlame (Apr 29, 2018)

Coconut said:


> What other choices are there? You either have a freaking vagina or a dick. Or you have a vagina and think 'Hmm, I want to be a man', or the other way around.
> 
> Wait I forgot there is Asia, there are ladyboys over there. We have more than two


t r a p


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 29, 2018)

Coconut said:


> What other choices are there? You either have a freaking vagina or a dick. Or you have a vagina and think 'Hmm, I want to be a man', or the other way around.
> 
> Wait I forgot there is Asia, there are ladyboys over there. We have more than two


ladyboy? how different is from a femboy?


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## pustal (Apr 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> That's one I actually CAN answer; it's because we as humans are hardwired to be a communal species, and the younger generation especially are trying to seek that out as they feel they're being estranged by the older ones. By creating names for a personal identity or quirk (in this case, gender, but it also applies to things like autism, sexuality, and various mental disorders that have symptoms in common with each other), you can group around people that share that same "label" and be confident that you will have a relatively shared experience. In that sense, the labels are not to create a target for themselves, nor is it to strictly make them feel special; it's more of an end to a journey of self-discovery



Ok, I get you, but still I think is counter-productive. In essence one is rebelling against gender norms to create new gender norms and construct themselves to it. The path for gender equality is to treat everyone like a proper individual person instead of creating new groups to treat accordingly.

Also I think the need of belonging to a particular group is mostly a cultural and contemporary feeling, that goes in line with the dividing tribalism and the "us VS them" mindset that eradiates from the US and been growing in fundamentalist groups in Europe. It is not healthy and accomplishes nothing to the path of inclusion.


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## TheMrIron2 (Apr 29, 2018)

DrkBeam said:


> Gender is a social construct, it will be defined a the culture allows it, a person could identify themselves as the other sex because their brain was designed as the opposite sex, the same goes for the sexual orientation, environment and genetics creates a big factor and not learning by experience. The sex is different, it doesn't need to be labeled for more than two sexes, is better explained as a genetic disorder or interaction of hormones.



I think the issue some people in this thread have is that the definition of gender was originally the same as sex until fairly recently, as far as the word goes.  I don't believe in gender as a "social construct" since it's completely arbitrary and it's a label people often put on themselves. I can understand switching gender from female to male and vice versa, but I really can't fathom why anyone would see it as a nonbinary spectrum - at that point, I would register that as attention seeking since they're labelling themselves with something unusual to make them stand out more than they need to (most of the time anyway).


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## SG854 (Apr 29, 2018)

Minox said:


> I'm usually rather live and let go regarding these kind of topics. I do not care one bit whether there are two or more genders and people can identify as whatever they want as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I am not going to make any attempts to remember any new gender pronouns as I consider that a complete waste of time, but I am perfectly willing to refer to someone as the other gender if they're transitioning and if that's unwanted I can always refer to them by their name instead.



I can see this as a problem for people in Canada when there is laws against misgendering and you could be fined. Bill C-16 itself is not the problem, the problem is in Social Justice tribunal courts in Canada. Which people have already been sued a huge amounts of money even for making a small mistake and not intentionally misgendering.

There is also the case that got lots of public attention with Lindsay Shepard. Even though she was showing a gender argument from both sides and taking a neutral position, the school accused her of being Hitler and an alt right. Not even taking a neutral position is ok and debate is not allowed. Which goes against what a university stands for and destroys free speech. You have to hear both sides to reach a better conclusion.

They said that they misinterpreted C-16, but some argue that no they interpreted it correctly, exactly how it was written. And people want something similar incorporated in the US. When you have something like this then people are gunna be bothered by it. Especially when they are being forced to gender someone correctly and there is disagreement on this issue. Many people don’t like the idea of thousands of possible genders emerging since people are free to make whatever new gender term they want.


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## Minox (Apr 29, 2018)

SG854 said:


> I can see this as a problem for people in Canada when there is laws against misgendering and you could be fined. Bill C-16 itself is not the problem, the problem is in Social Justice tribunal courts in Canada. Which people have already been sued a huge amounts of money even for making a small mistake and not intentionally misgendering.
> 
> There is also the case that got lots of public attention with Lindsay Shepard. Even though she was showing a gender argument from both sides and taking a neutral position, the school accused her of being Hitler and an alt right. Not even taking a neutral position is ok and debate is not allowed. Which goes against what a university stands for and destroys free speech. You have to hear both sides to reach a better conclusion.
> 
> They said that they misinterpreted C-16, but some argue that no they interpreted it correctly, exactly how it was written. And people want something similar incorporated in the US. When you have something like this then people are gunna be bothered by it. Especially when they are being forced to gender someone correctly and there is disagreement on this issue. Many people don’t like the idea of thousands of possible genders emerging since people are free to make whatever new gender term they want.


Fairly sure that referring to someone by name wouldn't go against that law (no matter how stupid that law is) as their name is not a pronoun.


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## Deleted User (Apr 29, 2018)

There are only 2 genders. Is this a serious conversation? Do you people live in fairy tale land?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osaka35 said:


> It seems most folks are falling back on "but mah genetics!".
> 
> That has to deal with sex, and even that is not binary. it's *usually* binary, but biology is not exact in how it does things. That's how evolution works in the first place! If you think biology dictates only two sexes, and only two ways of expressing those genes, then your understanding of biology is pretty limited. If you think two sexes dictates there be only two genders, then your understanding of sociology, biology, and neurology are really limited.
> 
> If you go by what you learned in highschool, I can understand why there's so much hesitation to accept the fuzziness of human sexuality, sex, and gender (all very different topics of conversation, if related in certain ways). but there's more to it, though.


This is bat shit crazy. What has the world come to too.


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## SG854 (Apr 29, 2018)

Minox said:


> Fairly sure that referring to someone by name wouldn't go against that law (no matter how stupid that law is) as their name is not a pronoun.


I guess thats one way to avoid it. The fact that’s it’s around it’s going to be subject to abuse.

And there is this other ridiculous case I was actually laughing at how ridiculous it was, about a trans person.

Someone went to an all girl school. Marked they were a girl in the application. But identified as “masculine of center gender queer.” Took on a male name Timmothy. Ran for a leadership position. But many people were against it because she was now a he and part of the white male oppressive patriarchy and a problem to society.

I wonder what goes on in people’s minds when this stuff happens. How dumb can you be?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.na...rsity-officer-because-shes-white-man-now/amp/


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## Lucar (Apr 29, 2018)

"Bigots never really want to debate. They want to recruit. When they say they "debate me," what they are saying is that they would like for you to use your platform to direct a population's attention to them, because statistically, they can sway at least a few from any large set."

Source: https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/990527425741295616


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## Kheartz (Apr 29, 2018)

Gender != Sex. Change my mind.


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## The_Green_Nerd (Apr 29, 2018)

ip60 said:


> There are only 2 genders. Is this a serious conversation? Do you people live in fairy tale land?
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


And how about hermaphrodites?


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## xpoverzion (Apr 29, 2018)

Ther eare only 2 genders, and 2 sexes scientifically speaking.  Anyone here that says otherwise is a delusional libtard.


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## Kheartz (Apr 29, 2018)

xpoverzion said:


> Ther eare only 2 genders, and 2 sexes scientifically speaking.  Anyone here that says otherwise is a delusional ***.



I think you need to actually explore the distinction between gender and sex, and see what the scientific literature has to say about the distinction between the two. They're not the same. And there's definitely no need for name calling.


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 29, 2018)

Kheartz said:


> I think you need to actually explore the distinction between gender and sex, and see what the scientific literature has to say about the distinction between the two. They're not the same. And there's definitely no need for name calling.


If I want to have sex with a cat, it makes me a human who wants sex with a cat, not a cat.


----------



## Lucar (Apr 29, 2018)

ip60 said:


> If I want to have sex with a cat, it makes me a human who wants sex with a cat, not a cat.



That's not what Kheartz meant by Sex and Gender...


----------



## Seriel (Apr 29, 2018)

ip60 said:


> If I want to have sex with a cat, it makes me a human who wants sex with a cat, not a cat.


I'm sorry but that statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 29, 2018)

Lucar said:


> That's not what Kheartz meant by Sex and Gender...


Please explain to me how sex and gender differ.


----------



## Lucar (Apr 29, 2018)

ip60 said:


> Please explain to me how sex and gender differ.



I'm saying when he mentioned sex and gender, he wasn't referencing _*sexuality*_ and gender. I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who honestly doesn't seem open to different opinions though. Sorry.


----------



## Eddypikachu (Apr 29, 2018)

ip60 said:


> Please explain to me how sex and gender differ.


Literally takes 2 seconds to google that question and find various answers


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 29, 2018)

Lucar said:


> I'm saying when he mentioned sex and gender, he wasn't referencing _*sexuality*_ and gender. I'm not going to bother arguing with someone who honestly doesn't seem open to different opinions though. Sorry.


Thats the thing, someone who is factual/logical comes off as hateful nowadays. 

There was never any hate involved, I love all people. But a girl is a girl and a boy is a boy, we breathe oxygen, earth revolves around the sun etc etc.


----------



## Lucar (Apr 29, 2018)

ip60 said:


> Thats the thing, someone who is factual/logical comes off as hateful nowadays.
> 
> There was never any hate involved, I love all people. But a girl is a girl and a boy is a boy, we breathe oxygen, earth revolves around the sun etc etc.



I didn't say you seem hateful, you just don't seem open to a change in opinion, and therefore I'm not going to waste my time trying to do something that I can't.


----------



## The_Green_Nerd (Apr 29, 2018)

When I look at wikipedia, gender differences is a heavily researched topic with a broad view. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#Biological_factors_and_views and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans. But you can savely say that sex is what you are biologically; gender is what you become socially. But nature f*cks things up sometimes, causing stuff like hermaphrodites and homosexuals. And there is nothing we can do about it. Except soften the pain by giving some a hormones, removing one of the two genitals and accepting those people in society.

Further more, I also as a society we should stop discussing these topics? Looking at the complexity of this topic. I sincerely think we should leave it to researchers and a medical and psychological panel to come with names.


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 29, 2018)

Lucar said:


> I didn't say you seem hateful, you just don't seem open to a change in opinion, and therefore I'm not going to waste my time trying to do something that I can't.


That's fair enough.


----------



## smf (Apr 29, 2018)

ip60 said:


> Please explain to me how sex and gender differ.



Sex is your body.
Gender is your mind.

We don't know how often they tie up, because some people are generally unwilling to discuss this & they may have repressed their non binary tendencies anyway.

The idea of intelligent design is crazy when you consider what happens in nature, so IMO it's down to the individual what they identify as.


----------



## cots (Apr 30, 2018)

ip60 said:


> Thats the thing, someone who is factual/logical comes off as hateful nowadays.
> 
> There was never any hate involved, I love all people. But a girl is a girl and a boy is a boy, we breathe oxygen, earth revolves around the sun etc etc.



Liberals don't like logic. They go by feeling. They say science is their god, but when confronted with facts and not the junk science they rely on they then turn on science. Tolerance is a common phrase, but they only tolerate people who believe in what they believe. Anyone else is a bigot (that's the best they can do is repeat the same offensive attack over and over again). Liberals have had control of our classrooms for 20 years so it's no wonder kids are confused about simple things such as male/female. Do these kids ever look into who is writing their text books or do they just blindly follow without asking questions?


----------



## Eddypikachu (Apr 30, 2018)

cots said:


> Liberals don't like logic. They go by feeling. They say science is their god, but when confronted with facts and not the junk science they rely on they then turn on science. Tolerance is a common phrase, but they only tolerate people who believe in what they believe. Anyone else is a bigot (that's the best they can do is repeat the same offensive attack over and over again). Liberals have had control of our classrooms for 20 years so it's no wonder kids are confused about simple things such as male/female. Do these kids ever look into who is writing their text books or do they just blindly follow without asking questions?


Apparently all science based conclusions are wrong if it doesn't match your viewpoints, more hot takes from gbatemp user cots at 11
/s


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## cots (Apr 30, 2018)

Eddypikachu said:


> Apparently all science based conclusions are wrong if it doesn't match your viewpoints, more hot takes from gbatemp user cots at 11
> /s



Not all science is junk science, but Liberals will use anything to try to prove a point and if they can't then they deny the science. It's all about getting the attention and being right. Did we all forget that democrats were slave owners and republicans fought and brought about the end of slavery? Who do you think came up with the idea to classify people by their race (you ever fill out a job application?)? Liberals .... I'm not sure about you, but if you're forcing people into groups or giving one race or a group with certain beliefs preference over the others then you are the racist, but that makes too much sense so I just must be a closed minded bigot.


----------



## Eddypikachu (Apr 30, 2018)

"Actually according to science, _____ is true"
*overwhelming majority of scientists proves them wrong*
"Hmmm... have you considered science is actually fake?"


----------



## cots (Apr 30, 2018)

Eddypikachu said:


> "Actually according to science, _____ is true"
> *overwhelming majority of scientists proves them wrong*
> "Hmmm... have you considered science is actually fake?"



Science is created by man therefor it is flawed. Science has caused more death and destruction on our planet than any natural force of nature. I prefer math.


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## DeslotlCL (Apr 30, 2018)

cots said:


> Liberals don't like logic. They go by feeling. They say science is their god, but when confronted with facts and not the junk science they rely on they then turn on science. Tolerance is a common phrase, but they only tolerate people who believe in what they believe. Anyone else is a bigot (that's the best they can do is repeat the same offensive attack over and over again). Liberals have had control of our classrooms for 20 years so it's no wonder kids are confused about simple things such as male/female. Do these kids ever look into who is writing their text books or do they just blindly follow without asking questions?


Do not want to sound rude or anything, but my actual fear about conservatives, at least where i live, is that some of them have actually killed people of my condition (just talking about lgbt people, so sorry for being offtopic). The problem starts when you cant live your life without having fear of people because of that... ALTHOUGH, since i dont feel like being on any of those two sides, both conservatives and liberals can get pretty and equally violent when it comes to beliefs and ideas differences...


----------



## 3DSPoet (Apr 30, 2018)

The problem with the whole gender thing is that people don't want to be "locked in" to 2 genders, but they ALSO don't want to be locked into 3,256,987 genders, either.  The strongest advocates for this aren't looking to help anyone.  They're looking for power and control.  You can't make laws and regulations based on how people "feel".  Today, I may identify as a straight white male..but tomorrow?  Who knows?  Maybe I'll decide I want to use the women's bathroom, so I'll identify as a woman.  On Tuesday, I might decide that I'm a goald-brestid spugeddi monstur and insist that that's what they put on the forms I fill out at the DMV.  I have the right to identify however I want and no one has the right to tell me I'm wrong.  But where's the limit?  What if I say I identify as an 11 year old boy?  Is that too much?  Should I get to pay the child's price for admission to places?  If I have sex with someone, does that mean they're guilty of statutory rape?  And, yes, I know most of you with normal to above average IQs are going to say I'm being ridiculous....and that's the point!

You want more genders?  Fine, create a few extra classifications that can fit on a form.  The fact that I'm seeing forms that are Male/Female/Custom is absolutely absurd.  The problem is showboating and unlimited potential for stupidity.  You can NOT have 300 people with 300 different genders.  It just doesn't work.

If you aren't confident and comfortable with yourself as a fellow human being, then it doesn't matter what I call you, gender-wise.  What you are is a whiny, weak, lonely loser begging for attention.  THAT is your mental disposition.


----------



## cots (Apr 30, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> Do not want to sound rude or anything, but my actual fear about conservatives, at least where i live, is that some of them have actually killed people of my condition (just talking about lgbt people, so sorry for being offtopic). The problem starts when you cant live your life without having fear of people because of that... ALTHOUGH, since i dont feel like being on any of those two sides, both conservatives and liberals can get pretty and equally violent when it comes to beliefs and ideas differences...



Well, liberals kill people too. I don't think your choice of politics will make you more or less inclined to murder. Conservatives seem to get violent when they are threatened with violence and liberals get violent when people don't conform to their standards. I think conservatives are more level headed and don't care too much about what the liberals do if they would only keep it to themselves (which conservatives do). I'm an independent. I can't stand either political party as they have turned into giant corporations.


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## Eddypikachu (Apr 30, 2018)

Literally all that's needed is just male, woman and nobinary with he, she, and they pronouns receptively


----------



## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

Haloman800 said:


> It is as valid as a man claiming to be a woman, or a woman claiming to be a vampire/otherkin. You literally cannot disprove I am an attack helicopter without also disproving all other trans.



Sure, I can't disprove it. But I'm pretty sure that's not how it works...

Anyway, if it makes you feel better, sure, go ahead claiming you are an attack helicopter. I legit don't care. I'm pretty sure other people will, though.


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## cots (Apr 30, 2018)

Eddypikachu said:


> Literally all that's needed is just male, woman and nobinary with he, she, and they pronouns receptively



Non-binary is a mutation and very rare thus it is not considered a gender.


3DSPoet said:


> The problem with the whole gender thing is that people don't want to be "locked in" to 2 genders, but they ALSO don't want to be locked into 3,256,987 genders, either.  The strongest advocates for this aren't looking to help anyone.  They're looking for power and control.  You can't make laws and regulations based on how people "feel".



Well, if liberals knew the larger picture they would have to question a lot of things so it's just better to ignore what is really going on and continue as normal. They never ask "why" and if they did they would figure out that their party wants more control over everything; larger government, more laws, more taxes. They want to be able to control everyone all of the time for their own benefit. Communism doesn't work as it's been proven not to time and time again, but I wonder what sort of "History" the Liberals are teaching our kids today?


----------



## wownmnpare (Apr 30, 2018)

Long ago there 2 only genders living in harmony but everything change when surgery arrive


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## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

Eddypikachu said:


> Literally all that's needed is just male, woman and nobinary with he, she, and they pronouns receptively



That's pretty much it. Those Tumblr-invented "genders" don't deserve to be talked about.



cots said:


> *Non-binary is a mutation and very rare thus it is not considered a gender.*
> 
> 
> Well, if liberals knew the larger picture they would have to question a lot of things so it's just better to ignore what is really going on and continue as normal. They never ask "why" and if they did they would figure out that their party wants more control over everything; larger government, more laws, more taxes. They want to be able to control everyone all of the time for their own benefit. Communism doesn't work as it's been proven not to time and time again, but I wonder what sort of "History" the Liberals are teaching our kids today?



Not "considered"? Interesting choice of words. I mean, non-binary people do consider it a gender.


----------



## cots (Apr 30, 2018)

osm70 said:


> Not "considered"? Interesting choice of words. I mean, non-binary people do consider it a gender.



How many people are we talking about?


----------



## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

cots said:


> How many people are we talking about?


About 1%, the last time I checked.


----------



## KingVamp (Apr 30, 2018)

I'm sorry, "keep it to themselves"? The last time I checked history, it was "conservatives" pushing LGBT out of their homes. It was conservatives not allowing them to do things such as getting married and adopting kids.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

3DSPoet said:


> You want more genders?  Fine, create a few extra classifications that can fit on a form.  The fact that I'm seeing forms that are Male/Female/Custom is absolutely absurd.  The problem is showboating and unlimited potential for stupidity.  You can NOT have 300 people with 300 different genders.  It just doesn't work.


I totally agree, and I'd be willing to bet that that's what most rational people expect in the end, as well. I honestly think that this _is _the solution:


Eddypikachu said:


> Literally all that's needed is just male, woman and nobinary with he, she, and they pronouns receptively


If you want to get technical, you could also formally recognize MtF and FtM as genders, but... Otherwise, I honestly see no reason for more than that

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osm70 said:


> That's pretty much it. Those Tumblr-invented "genders" don't deserve to be talked about.


You know... I'm on Tumblr myself, (mostly for art and fanfic stuff, but I see a bit of everything) and from where I sit that's blown WAY out of proportion. There are definitely people who take "otherkin" and follow obscure gender identities, but they are overwhelming uncommon. And even then, I honestly suspect that it's 50% smear propaganda... So what I guess I'm saying is that there's no REAL reason to fear that something like that would come to pass


----------



## 3DSPoet (Apr 30, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> There are definitely people who take "otherkin" and follow obscure gender identities, but they are overwhelming uncommon. And even then, I honestly suspect that it's 50% smear propaganda... So what I guess I'm saying is that there's no REAL reason to fear that something like that would come to pass



The problem is (as it ALWAYS is) that these vocal minorities are the ones spreading hate and playing the victim.  But then, rational people rarely are heard.  The politicians, the ones that want to enslave all the non-binaries, will take these loud bullies as the example of the people who want more specific ways to identify.

It's kind of like how when a tornado hits and they always find that one stereo-typical redneck couple that MIGHT have a double-digit IQ if you add both of them together...  There are plenty of completely rational, intelligent people..but that's who the spokespersons are.  Or when people badmouth the NRA and their example is always some militia group in Texas that flies a flag over their compound with the NRA logo.  (Personally, I think the NRA are all money grubbing scum, but I don't believe all of their members are...don't go off on a tangent about gun control..I was just citing an example!)

I'm a big geek...I've been to a LOT of animé conventions...and guess what!  I'm pretty sure that straight, white anything is the minority at those events.  Every line you stand in, you hear some girl-like person talking to another girl-like person about being trans and either praising or bashing people for their beliefs.  On the other hand, I've had perfectly nice conversations with some that I could only assume were trans, but it never came up in conversation...so final point..and a throwback to what I said in an earlier post...

If you have to tell the world what you are, then YOU are the one with the problem.  I don't need to be told you are gay, straight, black white, male, female, a six-sided die, or, believe it or not, an Apache helicopter!  Interacting with you as a normal and fellow human being will tell me all the information I need.  The only time I NEED you to bring up gender or preference is if we're going into a relationship, then it becomes a bit important.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

3DSPoet said:


> If you have to tell the world what you are, then YOU are the one with the problem.  I don't need to be told you are gay, straight, black white, male, female, a six-sided die, or, believe it or not, an Apache helicopter!  Interacting with you as a normal and fellow human being will tell me all the information I need.  The only time I NEED you to bring up gender or preference is if we're going into a relationship, then it becomes a bit important.


I agree with most of your post but disagree here. I think you should have to tell people how you would like to be addressed exactly once, and remind as necessary. If you tell people how you indentify just to hear the sound of your own voice, that's obviously a problem, but otherwise if a person finds themselves repeating how they want to be addressed, chances are the fault is actually on the person addressing them


----------



## DrkBeam (Apr 30, 2018)

cots said:


> Science has caused more death and destruction on our planet than any natural force of nature. I prefer math


That's objectively wrong:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian–Triassic_extinction_event


----------



## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I totally agree, and I'd be willing to bet that that's what most rational people expect in the end, as well. I honestly think that this _is _the solution:
> 
> If you want to get technical, you could also formally recognize MtF and FtM as genders, but... Otherwise, I honestly see no reason for more than that
> 
> ...




I'm not saying that everyone on Tumblr is like that. All I'm saying is that those people are way too loud. If you never heard of non-binary, that is probably the first thing you will find when doing your research.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Apr 30, 2018)

I hate to say this, but you have a terminology problem.
Hell, stop basing everything on "anecdote" or "feeling".
Define what and in which context means "sex" and "gender", citing respectable sources.
Use the same language people.

PS: Of course gender and sex are not the same word, and don't have the same meaning. They are related though. What about being explicit about the difference? Like one being related to culture, role and behavior, and the other to biology?

People suck at language...


----------



## linuxares (Apr 30, 2018)

We have Sex - Female or Male (sometimes both)
We have gender - agreed upon/common sexuality example gay, bi, straight etc.
Then we have "Tumblr genders" - Made up stupidity with genders of everything between heaven and earth. Generally causing more harm than good.

Also there are gender roles, but this is a different discussion.


----------



## cots (Apr 30, 2018)

DrkBeam said:


> That's objectively wrong:
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian–Triassic_extinction_event



I meant "human life".


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 30, 2018)

There are many genders according to tumblr
According to Eix there are 3
Correct
Incorrect
Dakimakura

But there are also 4 sexes
Male
Female
Hermaphrodite
Sexless

You can change your physical sex with surgery
You can change your gender by changing your mind
You can change your genetic sex with lasers and radiation

My gender is Dakimakura
My sex is male
Mt genetics are mostly male except that one part that can't be read


----------



## StarTrekVoyager (Apr 30, 2018)

Gender is a complicated issue. As for myself, I just consider that a lot of people just exclusively assimilate to a "male" or "female" one. But then there's all the rest of the people, with a non-binary gender who cannot just do that. Gender is personal, it's something that each individual can feel differently, and to me it's useless to create categories that nobody will understand, as each person on the planet who does not fall under the "male" or "female" categories has different feelings, a different life, a different approach. We could say there is an infinite amount of genders, but that's just pointless to try to define something as obscure.


----------



## RedBlueGreen (Apr 30, 2018)

If someone wants to identify as what they want I say let them. But if you start freaking out because somebody doesn't recognize your really obscure identity or use your preferred pronouns that's a different matter. If you want to identify as male or female or prefer neither I'm not bothered as long as you're not obnoxious about it. I don't respect the ridiculous shit SJWs come up with though where it sounds like they just came up with something random on the spot. Apparently kindergender is a thing now (literally just means pedophile) according to some Tumblr account. It's made up gender identities like that which I have a problem with. Though that one may have been a joke.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

osm70 said:


> I'm not saying that everyone on Tumblr is like that. All I'm saying is that those people are way too loud. If you never heard of non-binary, that is probably the first thing you will find when doing your research.


I have heard of the non-binary orientation and I'm in full support of it

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



linuxares said:


> We have Sex - Female or Male (sometimes both)
> We have gender - agreed upon/common sexuality example gay, bi, straight etc.
> Then we have "Tumblr genders" - Made up stupidity with genders of everything between heaven and earth. Generally causing more harm than good.
> 
> Also there are gender roles, but this is a different discussion.


Now hang on, you're confusing gender with sexuality. Gender roles are closer to falling under the umbrella of gender than sexuality is

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



sarkwalvein said:


> I hate to say this, but you have a terminology problem.
> Hell, stop basing everything on "anecdote" or "feeling".
> Define what and in which context means "sex" and "gender", citing respectable sources.
> Use the same language people.
> ...


https://othersociologist.com/sociology-of-gender/
Give that a read if you're genuinely interested


----------



## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I have heard of the non-binary orientation and I'm in full support of it
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...




Yes, of course. The "problem" that I'm talking about is when someone doesn't know what non-binary is. That person will try to look it up and one of the first things they see is a Tumblr blog "explaining" hundreds of genders. You can see the issue that might arise from that, right?


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

cots said:


> I meant "human life".


Where do you get that idea from? You could probably justify that with WWII SS experimentation, but if we're being realistic everyone they used for testing was going to die in the concentration camps anyway (not saying either was any less horrible or significant than it was, but objectively there it was Nazis, rather than science, that destroyed lives)

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osm70 said:


> Yes, of course. The "problem" that I'm talking about is when someone doesn't know what non-binary is. That person will try to look it up and one of the first things they see is a Tumblr blog "explaining" hundreds of genders. You can see the issue that might arise from that, right?


Just doing a quick Google search, I don't get anything Tumblr related, and I actually got what would be a pretty useful resource to someone curious: https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/nonbinary


----------



## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Where do you get that idea from? You could probably justify that with WWII SS experimentation, but if we're being realistic everyone they used for testing was going to die in the concentration camps anyway (not saying either was any less horrible or significant than it was, but objectively there it was Nazis, rather than science, that destroyed lives)
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



I just tried. It took me 8 pages of search results to find a Tumblr link.

I remember looking it up about a year ago and the first 2 pages were full of Tumblr stuff. Good thing that changed.

I apologize for not testing the current situation before posting. Yeah, you can just ignore everything I said. I was wrong.


----------



## MrMcTiller (Apr 30, 2018)

There are 2 genders.... 

Male

Female

That simple... really people.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

osm70 said:


> I just tried. It took me 8 pages of search results to find a Tumblr link.
> 
> I remember looking it up about a year ago and the first 2 pages were full of Tumblr stuff. Good thing that changed.
> 
> I apologize for not testing the current situation before posting. Yeah, you can just ignore everything I said. I was wrong.


No problem, glad it could be a learning experience

Yeah, I think most people's perceptions of Tumblr are tainted by when it was riddled with Superwholock fandom people. In my experience, anyway, that's no longer the case; it's mostly liberal bloggers looking for an outlet, artists, and memesters now, with the occasional "toxic feminist" bloggers still being a thing, but not nearly as common

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



MrMcTiller said:


> There are 2 genders....
> 
> Male
> 
> ...


Read back through the first and last few pages (I'd say three from each side) to get an idea of the discussion before jumping in at this point, because otherwise people from both sides will end up repeating each other again (for like the 10th time probably lol)


----------



## MaverickWellington (Apr 30, 2018)

Should we really be having these kind of complex discussions on a forum filled with morons, shitposters, trolls, edgelords, tin foil hat conspiracy theorists, and a minority of console hacking/modding enthusiasts?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Like what's next, are we gonna have posts about whether or not Palestine is the capital of Israel or something?


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 30, 2018)

You are what you where born.You can never change it.Anything you try to make yourself be is artificial.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

MaverickWellington said:


> Should we really be having these kind of complex discussions on a forum filled with morons, shitposters, trolls, edgelords, tin foil hat conspiracy theorists, and a minority of console hacking/modding enthusiasts?


Eh, I'd say the first group is a very vocal minority. Doesn't change the issue overall, but I wouldn't say the majority of the site fall into one of those categories all the same


----------



## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

Ominous66521 said:


> You are what you where born.You can never change it.Anything you try to make yourself be is artificial.



What defines what you were born as? Only your body? If so, that's a very narrow point of view.


----------



## Deleted User (Apr 30, 2018)

osm70 said:


> What defines what you were born as? Only your body? If so, that's a very narrow point of view.


If you are born with a penis your a man by defult,no matter what sex you prefer.Same with a woman,your born with a vagina then your a woman by defult,your sexual preferences dont matter but you cant change your own history.If your born with both,then idk what you are,but thats the only way i could see someone go either way.


----------



## osm70 (Apr 30, 2018)

Ominous66521 said:


> If you are born with a penis your a man by defult,no matter what sex you prefer.Same with a woman,your born with a vagina then your a woman by defult,your sexual preferences dont matter but you cant change your own history.If your born with both,then idk what you are,but thats the only way i could see someone go either way.



Some people actually go through a surgery to change their sex, though. You stated that this is artificial. Well, technically... if a man has a sex change and turns into a woman, I can agree that it's an "artificial" change. But so what? Why does it matter? She's a woman now.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

Ominous66521 said:


> If you are born with a penis your a man by defult,no matter what sex you prefer.Same with a woman,your born with a vagina then your a woman by defult,your sexual preferences dont matter but you cant change your own history.If your born with both,then idk what you are,but thats the only way i could see someone go either way.


What if someone changes that through surgery and hormone replacement, or dresses in a way that makes them indistinguishable from the opposite sex, or dresses androgynously?


----------



## osaka35 (Apr 30, 2018)

ip60 said:


> This is bat shit crazy. What has the world come to too.



Why do you feel genetic research and biology is bat shit crazy?


----------



## osaka35 (Apr 30, 2018)

cots said:


> Liberals don't like logic. They go by feeling. They say science is their god, but when confronted with facts and not the junk science they rely on they then turn on science. Tolerance is a common phrase, but they only tolerate people who believe in what they believe. Anyone else is a bigot (that's the best they can do is repeat the same offensive attack over and over again). Liberals have had control of our classrooms for 20 years so it's no wonder kids are confused about simple things such as male/female. Do these kids ever look into who is writing their text books or do they just blindly follow without asking questions?


A few notes:

- liberal means someone who wishes to push for social changes and to improve the quality of life for everyone. Conservative means to make sure things make financial sense to tax-payers and to not sell the cow for want of milk. (edit: as far as this conversation is concerned) You could be both, or bits and pieces of both. Bringing in money while improving the quality of life for everyone is a win-win for any political persuasion...but rarely gets reported that way. Because power and all that. How we got where we are today is pretty weird, considering conservatives in charge today are not very conservative, and liberals are struggling to even keep the social changes and progress we were able to accrue over the past 80 years. Somehow "conservative" got turned from those who balancing the checkbook into those anti-science anti-consumer religious zealots, and "liberals" got turned into struggling to agree on what quality of life for everyone looks like. All of this baggage on the words are a problem created by talking heads and those in power. Ignore the labels and just focus on what they actually do. 

- liberals have not had control over our classroom. We're just now getting out from no-child-left-behind, and the massive hole that placed into our education. That and education keeps getting funded less and less every year. Fairly obvious the government keeps trying to bankrupt it, then eventually point to its failure as "inevitable" (same with the post office). Or as an excuse to create more slush funds they can raid. Unless you're talking about the pro-science agenda of the Kennedy era, which yeah. the "liberal agenda" of teaching better science has been getting better. 

-Most of those text books are written in the very conservative state of texas, and the textbooks are geared to that audience. Texas buys first and it buys the most, so text-book makers focus on that market and ship the same to the rest of the country. And the one county that buys first is very conservative, so they tend to vote for those versions first and foremost. I remember they caught flak a few years ago because they kept trying to make slavery not-so-bad, only wanting to approve versions that removed large chunks of the bad stuff. and that caused an uproar. And they keep trying to plop religious dogma in the science books (creationism) in various parts of the country. So yeah, fighting against ignorance on that front too.

Us normal folk have to fight against silly labels like conservative or liberal and just focus on what's going to maximize everyone's quality of life while minimizing cost to everyone. I tend to fall more on the left side, "maximize quality of life for everyone" over minimizing cost, so I think i'm classified as "liberal". This is a rough explanation, and there are other labels that are more specific, but clear enough to dissuade


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## 3DSPoet (Apr 30, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I agree with most of your post but disagree here. I think you should have to tell people how you would like to be addressed exactly once, and remind as necessary. If you tell people how you indentify just to hear the sound of your own voice, that's obviously a problem, but otherwise if a person finds themselves repeating how they want to be addressed, chances are the fault is actually on the person addressing them



My point with that part was that it's not necessary in normal conversation.  The only time I need to know anything about your anatomy or your mental sex/gender information is if that is specifically what we are discussing or we're negotiating a possible relationship.  If we're discussing the finer points of a Pokemon battle or last week's episode of Brooklyn 99, there is absolutely no reason to bring it up.  Now, if in the course of the conversation, an issue arises due to a difference in perceptions, a brief, POLITE acknowledgment of the relevant information may be necessary.  The people involved in this movement, for the most part are not polite nor do they wait until the information is needed.


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## MaverickWellington (Apr 30, 2018)

Total makes a pretty valid point -- the whole debate has been ruined because of counter culture nonsense. One group of idiots will see another group of idiots screaming, and instead of just ignoring them, or avoiding them like most normal people, they felt the need to either scream back at them, or scream over them, leading us to a sort of scream-culture war. Because of the outrageous "Superwholock" people as someone in the thread put it, people are basically terrified of letting there be any merit to what they say or having any sort of neutral, middle-groundish stance on the topic, because heaven fucking forbid you agree with one of those people on anything, you'd be just as bad as them!

The point I want to make with this is that it's ultimately harmless. Are there 2 genders? Well, that's a tough question, because there's several perspectives with their own individual answer. In a language that has a he, she, and neutral they, IE English, it would be three. There are 2 sexes, but they are not the same as genders. I think that there are essentially 2 "main" genders, and the recent boom of "gender revolution" or whatever you want to call it where people "invent" new genders aren't actually genders, they're just new forms of expression and coping mechanisms for a rise in gender dysphoria.

What I wanna know is why everyone gets so militantly up in arms about it. It's like saying there's only two kinds of clothing: shirt and pants, you absolutely can't wear anything else. Clothing, much like the "new genders" are just new forms of expression and nothing more. It doesn't mean someone is rewriting their sex, nor has anyone ever actually argued that they are, despite the countless arguments in this thread against such a blatant strawman. It just means someone is expressing themselves with different terms, and behaviors, that do not conform to the standard norms of male and female, of which there are already numerous deviations of to begin with.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



osaka35 said:


> this entire post


Holy fuck this too. Liberal as a term has gone from someone who is big on individual rights to essentially part communist, part hippie, part anti-american, and it's driving me nuts. Identity politics were a mistake, and this shit right here is why I think we should just abolish the party system _entirely._


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## osaka35 (Apr 30, 2018)

MaverickWellington said:


> Holy fuck this too. Liberal as a term has gone from someone who is big on individual rights to essentially part communist, part hippie, part anti-american, and it's driving me nuts. Identity politics were a mistake, and this shit right here is why I think we should just abolish the party system _entirely._



individuals rights as well, yes  but less relevant to their particular point so didn't go on about it. (edit: or, more accurately, I talked about the extension of the individual vs group dynamic that creates our politics and ethical dilemmas, and aligned them with the problem discussed in the thread/brought up) Though your second bit is more spin than actuality. And are you suggesting abolishing a party system is going to affect the way people perceive political philosophies? I mean, I guess, but that seems more like a part of the problem than the reason why we have the problem.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Apr 30, 2018)

MaverickWellington said:


> Holy fuck this too. Liberal as a term has gone from someone who is big on individual rights to essentially part communist, part hippie, part anti-american, and it's driving me nuts. Identity politics were a mistake, and this shit right here is why I think we should just abolish the party system _entirely._


Now wait a second, you're thinking of "neoliberals" rather than just liberals; the liberals of today, politically speaking, ARE moderates compared to most of the rest of the world, whereas neoliberals are effectively what the democratic party was before the 70s (which is to say, big on social security and wellness programs that are government funded). Neither of them are bad identities, per se, but they can be if you rabidly refuse to consider any other viewpoints. That said, there has been a rise of intolerant behavior from the opposite side of the political spectrum which, at times, unfortunately necessitates it. Really it all comes down to assuming that everyone entering discourse is looking for reasonable discussion, which I think this thread proves is certainly not the case


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## kbmarinha (May 3, 2018)

You wouldn't call a slightly salted sweet potato a salty potato, because it's still a sweet potato, no matter what you add to it.. Got it?


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## TotalInsanity4 (May 3, 2018)

kbmarinha said:


> You wouldn't call a slightly salted sweet potato a salty potato, because it's still a sweet potato, no matter what you add to it.. Got it?


No, but you have potatoes, yams, and sweet potatoes

That was a... strange... example


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## SimonMKWii (May 5, 2018)

Gender is just a "word", a social identity, whereas sex is determined by which chromosome (XX or XY) is in the specific sperm cell that fertilizes the egg.
Therefore, you could say you were a genderless alien called Gronk from the planet Zibituth and it would still be perfectly valid.


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## TotalInsanity4 (May 5, 2018)

SimonMKWii said:


> Gender is just a "word", a social identity, whereas sex is determined by which chromosome (XX or XY) is in the specific sperm cell that fertilizes the egg.
> Therefore, you could say you were a genderless alien called Gronk from the planet Zibituth and it would still be perfectly valid.


Well... The last bit would be factually incorrect, but I get what you're saying


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## Waygeek (Feb 5, 2019)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Gender is an outdated concept and you can present as basically anything you want to. In that sense sex and gender aren't equal, but in the same way that one can have many different sexual orientations, there's also a spectrum ranging from masculine and feminine presenting that a person might chose to present as



If this was true women wouldn't identify as men, men wouldn't identify as women etc. 

There are two genders, but of course, gender dysphoria exists, and people with it should be listened to, included in society and where it's going, and respected. But just because you feel like a more feminine man doesn't make that it's own gender, and vise versa. I'm not a macho brick-shithouse, I would be considered quite effeminate by some I'm sure, but that doesn't mean I'm an other, previously undocumented gender.


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## Mama Looigi (Feb 6, 2019)

You exist


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## goldensun87 (Feb 8, 2019)

I will be willing to accept a maximum of _four _genders: man, woman, he-woman, she-man.  And that is me being generous.


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## mrdude (Feb 8, 2019)

Male
Female
Mental

That's all there is to it folks!


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## CraddaPoosta (Feb 8, 2019)

The problem with the "transgenderism" social movement is that it demands that other people surrender their personal liberty to hold their own personal opinions. 

It's one thing if you are a boy who thinks he is a girl. It's another when you DEMAND that another person play along with your lifelong game of Pretty Pretty Princess. 

If you are suffering from the mental disorder that is gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria, then you need help, not for society to play along with your delusional mental illness. 

Mutilating your body or chemically altering it so that you more closely resemble the biological gender traits of your preferred gender does not "transition" you into that gender. You're just a mentally ill individual who chopped off his dangly bits and grew some fake breasteses. That won't alter your chromosomes. 

Chromosomes, not feelings, determine your gender. 

Again, I do not personally care what another person envisions himself or herself as. You can play pretend all day. You can imagine that you are the daintiest lady in the world, even though you have a manly Adam's apple and man hands. That's perfectly cool with me. 

You cross the line the instant you INSIST that I must treat you as something you can never be. You don't get to dictate to me how I MUST perceive you. 

You have the liberty to live out your fantasy. I have the liberty to refuse to play along. Neither of us are allowed to harm the other. 

That's fair. That's just. That's equality.


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## Captain_N (Feb 8, 2019)

I cant change your mind because i agree. Sorry folks there is only 2. Want to know why? Because nature said so, that's why. When a trans gender's grave is dug up in 2000 years the genetics will say male or female. Not what someone wants to be. Ill call a transgirl a she, but i can still smell that y chromosome. I know its there.


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## Rune (Feb 8, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> I cant change your mind because i agree. Sorry folks there is only 2. Want to know why? Because nature said so, that's why. When a trans gender's grave is dug up in 2000 years the genetics will say male or female. Not what someone wants to be. Ill call a transgirl a she, but i can still smell that y chromosome. I know its there.


But you're talking about biological sex, not gender. There's a difference.


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## Captain_N (Feb 8, 2019)

Rune said:


> But you're talking about biological sex, not gender. There's a difference.



Oh there is a difference. All but 2 of genders is made up. Which is my point. the only gender nature sees is the one for a male and the one for a female. The rest are made up and mean nothing. Maybe they will be making up races also.


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## Rune (Feb 8, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> Oh there is a difference. All but 2 of genders is made up. Which is my point. the only gender nature sees is the one for a male and the one for a female. The rest are made up and mean nothing. Maybe they will be making up races also.


You're still talking about biological sex, not gender.


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## CraddaPoosta (Feb 8, 2019)

Rune said:


> You're still talking about biological sex, not gender.



The idea that "biological sex" and "gender" are not directly linked to and reflective of each other is, itself, a purely social construct. The idea that we can or should separate "sex" and "gender" is, itself, a relatively new social construct. Since we're talking about what is or isn't a social construct, and all. 

Funny how humans managed to survive in our current form for 10,000 years, but only in the past decade have we tried to force other people to ignore everything they've ever learned or experienced in relation to anatomical biology, in favor of protecting the tender and sensitive feels of the mentally ill. 

We're normalizing and mainstreaming psychological delusion, and that's not a good solution. The increased risk of suicide among those identifying as "transgender" is somewhere around 40%. Mainstreaming delusion won't address the underlying MENTAL ILLNESS that "transgendered" individuals are suffering from. 

We shouldn't treat the symptoms of gender dysphoria with dishonesty and lies. We should treat the MENTAL DISORDER, itself. Even if 100% of the people on the planet were fine with accepting a post-op "transgendered" individual as the gender they are pretending to be, that wouldn't change the MENTAL ILLNESS they are suffering from. Their increased risk of suicidality would be exactly what it is, today, even if the whole world was willing to become liars and mollycoddlers.


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## Captain_N (Feb 8, 2019)

Neo Draven said:


> The idea that "biological sex" and "gender" are not directly linked to and reflective of each other is, itself, a purely social construct. The idea that we can or should separate "sex" and "gender" is, itself, a relatively new social construct. Since we're talking about what is or isn't a social construct, and all.
> 
> Funny how humans managed to survive in our current form for 10,000 years, but only in the past decade have we tried to force other people to ignore everything they've ever learned or experienced in relation to anatomical biology, in favor of protecting the tender and sensitive feels of the mentally ill.
> 
> ...



Now this is whats up. I see why your called the "End boss of the Interne. You also have people saying that there is No difference between a man and a woman. Id like to know what they are smoking because it must be some epic shit.


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## CraddaPoosta (Feb 8, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> Now this is whats up. I see why your called the "End boss of the Interne. You also have people saying that there is No difference between a man and a woman. Id like to know what they are smoking because it must be some epic shit.




If we can observe the animal kingdom (which humans happen to be subjects of) and determine marked and utterly distinct differences between the males and females of any particular species, I see absolutely no logic in denying that the same exact dichotomy would be represented in homo sapiens sapiens.


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## mrdude (Feb 8, 2019)

Neo Draven said:


> If we can observe the animal kingdom (which humans happen to be subjects of) and determine marked and utterly distinct differences between the males and females of any particular species, I see absolutely no logic in denying that the same exact dichotomy would be represented in homo sapiens sapiens.



Also, Animals don't wear clothes or take drugs or wear makeup to pretend they are something they are not. If some people are deluded enough to think they are something they are not, that's up to them. They shouldn't try and force others to be as whacky as they are with their mental issues. I'm sick of the mainstream media and the PC types trying to tell other people what they should believe or how to act. Nature made males and females and you do get the odd genetic anomalies such as hermaphrodites and certain animals that can change sex, but in general nature kills things like that out eventually and only the strong survive - and with the suicide rates for those with mental issues - that's just natures way of taking them out.


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## Silent_Gunner (Feb 8, 2019)

My answer:

There's two sexes, and two genders as far as I'm concerned. I never gave a shit about what one considers to be "masculine" or "feminine" as long as it isn't too out there (I won't say anything if you're a guy into MLP, but you can't change what I truly am thinking in my head about it). I watched Powerpuff Girls back when Cartoon Network was the shit, and my parents, Independent Fundamental Baptist as they are, never judged me for it. They didn't like Courage the Cowardly Dog because it was scary and Johnny Bravo because of the episode where he gets destroyed by not-Darth Vader and ends up in Hell. Ed, Ed, and Eddy was also a no-go because of the humor and swearing...yeah, Christian Prayer Warrior safe spaces bullshit that isn't trying to stay as normal as it used to with crap like War Room, prayer closets, prayer "warriors" (that's literally what they call for in the movie's climax), and the fact that said movie's star, the wife, was a speaker for some event that my parents' church promoted.

Thankfully, they aren't ANYTHING at all like Steven Anderson or the fucking Duggars.


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## bitjacker (Feb 8, 2019)

Why am I a bigot because I refuse acknowledge someone's fantasy of being something other than what grew from HIS/ HER dna information? The dsm 3 is actually not that old. I believe it mentions gender confusion. It was only removed from the dsm 4 because there is nothing for insurance to pay for. YES, disorders and diseases are only classified to reimburse for insurance payments.
     What is required to remain pc is just too much. I won't relinquish my right to have my beliefs and opinions. I wont hate speech if something is not forced upon me. How about that? Can people agree to disagree?


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## Rune (Feb 8, 2019)

Neo Draven said:


> The idea that "biological sex" and "gender" are not directly linked to and reflective of each other is, itself, a purely social construct. The idea that we can or should separate "sex" and "gender" is, itself, a relatively new social construct. Since we're talking about what is or isn't a social construct, and all.
> 
> Funny how humans managed to survive in our current form for 10,000 years, but only in the past decade have we tried to force other people to ignore everything they've ever learned or experienced in relation to anatomical biology, in favor of protecting the tender and sensitive feels of the mentally ill.
> 
> ...


The thought that sex and gender are the same is also a social construct. Yeah, this new age definition of gender is a relatively new social construct, but being new doesn't take any credibility away from it. Lots of things are new. We survived 10,000 years without the internet. That's no reason to suggest we'd be fine without it today. Times change, we learn new things, and mentally we evolve. We thought the Earth was flat for 10,000 years. We've only known it was round for about 2,000 years.

Our understanding today is that your biological sex and gender aren't the same thing. We've moved on (or at least try to move on) from times where stereotypes were so common. There were times where people expected men and women to have certain rights, certain jobs, dress a certain way, etc. We now live in a time where people have been liberated from those ideas. And "gender" is an extension of that liberation and is a way of differentiating you from what was expected of you based on the past stereotypical view of your biological sex.
So when someone says "all those other genders aren't real", that's like someone telling you how you live your life isn't real or your preference isn't real. As if someone's telling you how you _should_ be and what you _should_ look like. Imagine being called mental because you like something that society decided you shouldn't like. Sounds ridiculous. Their preference is as real as whether or not you prefer pineapple on your pizza. Gender is basically how you live your life. There's no "wrong" way to do it. And since there are so many ways to go about it, it has to be non-binary. So yes, there _are_ more than two genders. If you think there are only two, then you're thinking of "sex", not "gender". Gender isnt the same as sex today.

Regarding suicides, looking into suicide rates of transgender and homosexual people in society is of course going to show some correlation when we're talking about a group of people who usually have to live their lives without social acceptance. The suicide rates are higher in poor people compared to the rich. Is being poor a mental disorder? You're over twice as likely to commit suicide if you're divorced. Does that suggest being divorced is a mental illness? It seems pretty clear to me that the people who commit suicide are those who hate their lives. Plain and simple. Maybe if we accepted these people, some of them wont want to kill themselves. Its funny how recently we've seen a significant improvement in suicide rates of gay and lesbian people, specifically in states where same sex marriage has become legal. Surely not a coincidence.
If you cant understand or agree upon the modern definition of gender, that doesn't mean you simply chalk it up as being a mental disorder. 5,000 years ago, people would've called you mental if you said the Earth was round.

Now while I may seem like I'm being some kind of social justice warrior here, I still firmly believe that too many boundaries are being pushed. For example, I don't think a female that used to be a male, should be allowed to compete with other females in professional sports. So I'm not saying a female who used to be a male, should be treated like a female. Our problem IMO is that when people say "man" or "woman", we dont know whether we're talking about sex or gender. Things like sports or even restrooms should strictly be divided by biological sex. I dont agree with pretending a man is a woman just because that person made some life choices.

But having said that, the topic of the thread here was about there only being two genders, and I think that's wrong. Its natural that if you're opposing the idea of transgender people being accepted into society like traditional male or females, that you reject the credibility of their gender. How we accommodate them in society is a different discussion altogether though.
There are more than two genders, whether we like it or not.


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## Enkuler (Feb 8, 2019)

Rune said:


> There are more than two genders, whether we like it or not.


I'm only quoting this in your post because that's the only thing I disagree with (well except that part about pineapple on pizza but that's a bit offtopic).
Basically your post as a whole says "having the society force on people one among two genders, especially based on sex, is an idea from the past". I agree.
But then the thing that bothers me is the conclusion. My conclusion would be "let's get rid of that dumb gender notion altogether", and not "let's add more genders to the list".
In the end we both agree to live people live their life the way they want to, but I'm still curious to know why people want to add more categories to the problematic categories.


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## Rune (Feb 8, 2019)

Enkuler said:


> I'm only quoting this in your post because that's the only thing I disagree with (well except that part about pineapple on pizza but that's a bit offtopic).
> Basically your post as a whole says "having the society force on people one among two genders, especially based on sex, is an idea from the past". I agree.
> But then the thing that bothers me is the conclusion. My conclusion would be "let's get rid of that dumb gender notion altogether", and not "let's add more genders to the list".
> In the end we both agree to live people live their life the way they want to, but I'm still curious to know why people want to add more categories to the problematic categories.


Because we can't stop how they want to live their lives. So we can't pretend they dont exist. I'm not saying having so many genders is the ideal thing to do. I'm just saying its something we have to accept as reality.


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## jacksprat1990 (Feb 8, 2019)

DrGreed said:


> Biologically there are only two genders or to be more specific two sexual "tools" in our biological make up. I'd like to hear a compelling argument as well.



Come on now, don't talk sense.


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## Deleted User (Feb 8, 2019)

In most aspects, through out history, and even still now. Gender was usually interchangeably used for sexes, aka male and female. It's only till recently, we decided we now need to bring out the spectrum of how feminine or masculine a person is.
And because of this whole situation of making gender needing to mean more beyond it's initial meaning of a social word that for quite some time people used as a synonym for sex, that to me personally, it doesn't matter.
A word looses it's meaning when there is no clear answer to it's meaning. And at this point someone telling me that they are a different gender than what their sex is just tells me that due to unfortunate hormone mix they perceive themselves differently. And I don't truly fucking care if you think your different. If you want to be a female even though your sexually a man. Fine, I'll just change my vocab to specifically say that your sexual gender. Needing gender pronouns are getting silly. So I'll wait for when gender pronouns become sex pronouns, or something that is close to that word

In the states we used gender as a means to avoid the taboo word of sex. Which yes, is actually taboo in the states. (And violence isn't) which is likely why we shifted to use gender instead of sex, in means to sound less dirty (even though it's not a truly dirty word)
So now you have people who can't use the word gender as it suddenly and abruptly no longer means what it used to mean out of the blue almost. Which is a nightmare for folks. So now you have a... semi small group of people, trying to change a very common word to fit their ideals. I'm not saying it's entirely wrong, but I'm not going to say that is a good idea either. As now that puts people in the states to start using the word sex to define someone as male or female in situations were the word gender would of normally applied, but now doesn't.


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## bitjacker (Feb 8, 2019)

You still have the right to refer to someones gender as it is legally identified. Outrage culture is a fad. Be the change... if someone demands that you be pc, do your civic duty and hurt some feelings.


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## Enkuler (Feb 8, 2019)

Rune said:


> Because we can't stop how they want to live their lives. So we can't pretend they dont exist. I'm not saying having so many genders is the ideal thing to do. I'm just saying its something we have to accept as reality.


I think you got me wrong. I never said we should stop how people want to live. I'm not saying either that we should get rid of all genders except the two "main ones". I meant that we should get rid of all genders including the two "main ones".
So basically, people are people. No need to put that specific person in the feminine/masculine/other category. People live their lives and we accept it.


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## Rune (Feb 8, 2019)

Enkuler said:


> I think you got me wrong. I never said we should stop how people want to live. I'm not saying either that we should get rid of all genders except the two "main ones". I meant that we should get rid of all genders including the two "main ones".
> So basically, people are people. No need to put that specific person in the feminine/masculine/other category. People live their lives and we accept it.


Oh right, yeah. That's sort of how I feel.


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## deinonychus71 (Feb 8, 2019)

People can be whatever they want in the private sphere. 

Just don't force it on people. Worse (and I know that's not everyone) don't be conveniently offended when someone makes a "mistake". They are not in your head, and most of us still follows the "normative" "social construct" and you have no right to force others to adopt yours.

Also "it's a social construct" isn't an argument by itself. You gotta explain why it's a bad one. I see nothing bad in attaching a social notion to physical attributes. That doesn't mean you can't dress up like you want or talk like you want or anything.


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## dalekman9999 (Feb 8, 2019)

This has been going on for 10 months
T E N. M O N T H S.


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## AmandaRose (Feb 8, 2019)

The only thing that truly matters is that each and every one of us is a human being. And as intelligent humans we should know to treat everyone with love and respect. And that's something some of you that have posted here especially over the last few pages should try to remember.


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## goldensun87 (Feb 8, 2019)

All right, I will try to provide a more substantial input.  Gender is _not _"just a social construct".  Sex and gender may not be the same, but sex is the foundation for the _core _gender roles.  For core gender roles, we have two primary roles, each of which includes two or more subroles.  Let us call these two roles: "provider" and "caretaker"/"caregiver".  Traditionally, the male of the house provided for the household, in primitive times by hunting game to provide meat and planting crops to grow produce, and in modern times by trading goods/services for currency to purchase those same rations along with other necessary supplies.  Traditionally, the female of the house kept the home clean, cooked for the family, and took care of the children.  In primitive times, the female would also have to sew clothes for the family, with the source material needing to be harvested from sheep for wool, and from cotton plants.

Males and females were traditionally assigned the roles of provider and caretaker/caregiver, respectively, primarily because of the physical differences between men and women, which are, for the most part, governed by sex.  Historically, males were naturally the providers due to possessing superior physical strength, and women were naturally the caretakers/caregivers, because biologically, only females can give birth, and female hormones make females better emotionally suited to taking care of children and being caretakers/caregivers in general.

Fast forward to modern times.  It is true that gender roles get _switched_ between the two sexes every now and then, due to women scoring good salary jobs and men not being able to and having to take on the female gender roles.  However, the fact of the matter is, there is no _substantial _basis for the argument that there are more than two genders, due to two facts: 1) The existing gender roles _themselves _have not actually changed.  Polygamous relationships aside, if one spouse is working to earn money for the household, the other spouse has to become the caretaker/caregiver of the household, whether he/she likes it or not.  If both spouses are working and earning money, then the couple will have to share both gender roles to some extent.  And 2) As far as I know, _no new gender roles have been created.  _And if that statement holds true, then the term "transgender" is a baseless concept, whose only purpose is to sugarcoat the fact that an individual suffering from gender dysmorphia, chose to mutilate his or her body past the point of no return.  Assuming such individuals enter into a civil union with another individual, they are not contributing any _new/additional _gender roles, to justify creating any new genders past the two core genders which are rooted in and governed by the two sexes.

My honest point of view: If you are a male living in a "free" society, but decide that you are "wired" to align with female gender roles/activities, you can engage in said activities _without _mutilating yourself.  If you are female, theoretically you should have it easier.  Society has been accepting of "tomboy" girls long before they were accepting even of homosexuals.  So again, if you want to be more like a man, you do not have to mutilate yourself.  Because by doing unnecessary shit like that, all you are doing is making life more complicated for yourself.


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## DayVeeBoi (Feb 8, 2019)

Enkuler said:


> In the end we both agree to live people live their life the way they want to, but I'm still curious to know why people want to add more categories to the problematic categories.


I agree with both of these two preceding comments and just want to bring attention to where I think the whole root of the problem lies, and that is in the forcing of the issue, particularly in cases like Canada where they want to enshrine the notion into law.
The law is very slow to change once it has been demarcated, and I don't think we should create new laws for any "in vogue" ideas, particularly involving language as language is much more malleable than the law and tends to always be in a state of flux.

Addendum: I just wanted to add that, I do understand that the law is also a constantly changing beast as well, (everything is in a state of change at all times, just the act of observing is enough to create a change) but the law is positively glacial in comparison to language and is much easier to add to, than to take away from.


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## DCG (Feb 8, 2019)

@goldensun87 
Small note to add.
During the hunter gatherer phase of humanity, woman would pick berries, mushrooms and other greens, due to them having better colour reception (men can be colorblind, whilst this is very rare in woman).


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## spotanjo3 (Feb 8, 2019)

GhostLatte said:


> Please keep this civil.




What do you mean There are only two genders. Change my mind ? I dont understand.


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## Something whatever (Feb 8, 2019)

There is only XX and XY.

At the end of the day, men can't have babies


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## Rune (Feb 8, 2019)

Something whatever said:


> There is only XX and XY.
> 
> At the end of the day, men can't have babies


That's sex, not gender. But thanks for your input.


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## linuxares (Feb 8, 2019)

Rune said:


> That's sex, not gender. But thanks for your input.


That's genetics, not gender.


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## Rune (Feb 8, 2019)

linuxares said:


> That's genetics, not gender.


Well, he's referring to the genetics that refer to the sex, which doesn't necessarily refer to the gender.


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## Something whatever (Feb 8, 2019)

Rune said:


> That's sex, not gender. But thanks for your input.


I'm just an Eye, I have no gender bro


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## AmandaRose (Feb 8, 2019)

Something whatever said:


> There is only XX and XY.


 You are wrong men can also be born XXY also known as Kiinefelter syndrome and woman can be born simply X also known as Turner syndrome there are other as well.


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## Something whatever (Feb 8, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> You are wrong men can also be born XXY also known as Kiinefelter syndrome and woman can be born simply X also known as Turner syndrome there are other as well.


Learn something new each day~ isnt the same as an hermaphrodite? or am I wrong


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## AmandaRose (Feb 8, 2019)

Something whatever said:


> Learn something new each day~ isnt the same as an hermaphrodite? or am I wrong


Nope you are wrong. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome?wprov=sfla1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome?wprov=sfla1


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## Mama Looigi (Feb 8, 2019)

GhostLatte said:


> There are only two genders.
> Change my mind.


How did this happen?


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## osaka35 (Feb 8, 2019)

Something whatever said:


> Learn something new each day~ isnt the same as an hermaphrodite? or am I wrong


genetics is a lot sloppier process than most people are taught. "good enough" is how our body does things, rather than "precise! accurate! everytime!". most errors don't amount to anything. sometimes they produce something new and positive, sometimes it's detrimental, sometimes it's both, sometimes neither, but mainly it just goes unnoticed. the environment can influence which of these new things survive or not from generation to generation, pushing to a potentially new fitness peak, but that's a longer conversation (yay evolution!)

basically, xy, xx are usually what we have. but there's no genetic reason it can't be more or less or different. xxy, xxx, xyx, xxxy, xy female presenting, xx male presenting, and others, are all things that happen. and some can go completely unnoticed. or they can really change one's experience from the expected experience of the presenting sex, physically and mentally. just to throw it out there, folks who have these things are not somehow "lesser" or "wrong". we're all just our genetics.

nature is weird. usually when a person tells you certain people have to be a certain way because genetics, you can assume they probably don't know much about genetics.


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## blahblah (Feb 8, 2019)

Terfs get the wall.


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## XDel (Feb 8, 2019)

Well there are also hermaphrodites who you never hear about any more because the transvestites are screaming louder and louder ever day. One was "born that way" and the other...
...well where do they get the money for all these operations anyhow?!?!


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## AmandaRose (Feb 8, 2019)

XDel said:


> Well there are also hermaphrodites who you never hear about any more because the transvestites are screaming louder and louder ever day. One was "born that way" and the other...
> ...well where do they get the money for all these operations anyhow?!?!


Transvestite should not be confused with transgender or transsexual; transvestites are happy with their gender and have no desire to change their sex, but simply enjoy being able to cross-dress from time to time. When speaking of to or about an individual who identifies as transgender, the term transvestite is seen as derogatory


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## XDel (Feb 8, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> Transvestite should not be confused with transgender or transsexual; transvestites are happy with their gender and have no desire to change their sex, but simply enjoy being able to cross-dress from time to time. When speaking of to or about an individual who identifies as transgender, the term transvestite is seen as derogatory




Of course, of course... IMPORTANT issuea must be CLEARLY defined.


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## AmandaRose (Feb 8, 2019)

XDel said:


> Of course, of course... IMPORTANT issuea must be CLEARLY defined.


You do realise there is a number of trans people who use this site right?


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## XDel (Feb 8, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> You do realise there is a number of trans people who use this site right?



And did you know that some of us prefer oranges over apples? But what has that to do with video games, and why should my preference in fruit define me as a person?


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## AmandaRose (Feb 8, 2019)

XDel said:


> And did you know that some of us prefer oranges over apples? But what has that to do with video games, and why should my preference in fruit define me as a person?


And why should my preference along with the rest of the trans community to be called transgender and not the derogatory transvestite upset you so much? 

And this is the general off topic forum which is for discussing anything other than games so your statement about what does this have to do with video games makes zero sense.


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## spotanjo3 (Feb 8, 2019)

Something whatever said:


> There is only XX and XY.
> 
> At the end of the day, men can't have babies



True but some women can't have babies and some women doesn't want to have a babies. I know, I know.. You are referring to men. However, that's not the point. He is talking about genders, obviously.

And therefore there is nothing to do with preference. It is about born that way. Straight is not a preference and straight can't changed to gay or lesbian at all. The same for gay born that way and gay can't changed to straight at all. it have already been proved theory. 

However, this is about Genders. Move on.


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## kuwanger (Feb 8, 2019)

Well, the "problem" with transvestites could be easily solved:  everyone stop wearing clothes.  See, simple...and, what was that?  People have an issue with how people are born and want to "dress up" based upon "gender roles" and have issues when other people "dress up" with their own self-defined gender?  Or just like cosplaying?

*sigh*  It's almost as if the issue weren't about people having some problem with people not accepting their base biology and more with their rejecting society enforced social conventions.


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## XDel (Feb 8, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> And why should my preference along with the rest of the trans community to be called transgender and not the derogatory transvestite upset you so much?
> 
> And this is the general off topic forum which is for discussing anything other than games so your statement about what does this have to do with video games makes zero sense.



People will always misunderstand others. Welcime to Earth. There are people who are enduring much harsher hardships that certainly deserve more attention and understanding then these petty issues Amanda. Have a heart, be strong, move on with your life.


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## Esjay131 (Feb 8, 2019)

DrGreed said:


> Biologically there are only two genders or to be more specific two sexual "tools" in our biological make up. I'd like to hear a compelling argument as well.


"Biologically" gender isn't a thing. It wasn't until recently in human history that gender = sex. Sex and gender are not the same thing, and gender originally as a word meant quite a few things, including peoples mannerisms and roles. For instance, men having a typically womens job, such as sewing, looming, cooking, etc.


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## smf (Feb 9, 2019)

osaka35 said:


> and some can go completely unnoticed.



Like chimeras, who have two sets of dna

http://vanishingtwin.com/lydia-fair...-and-the-twin-was-the-mother-of-her-children/

If she hadn't been claiming benefits, she would never have known.

Taylor Muhl is more obvious, for some reason the two sets of her dna have a different skin colour.



Life is pretty weird, if something is viable then it will happen.

It doesn't matter what set of reproduction genitalia you have (or both), the rest of your body can end up with any traits. Some of that will affect who you're attracted to, other parts will drive how you want to express yourself.

We don't look between our legs and decide it's time to start thinking like a boy or girl based on what we see.


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## Depravo (Feb 9, 2019)

Imagine being so insecure in your own masculinity that you need to make this thread.


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## spotanjo3 (Feb 9, 2019)

Esjay131 said:


> "Biologically" gender isn't a thing. It wasn't until recently in human history that gender = sex. Sex and gender are not the same thing, and gender originally as a word meant quite a few things, including peoples mannerisms and roles. For instance, men having a typically womens job, such as sewing, looming, cooking, etc.



Yeah, more dads staying home with the kids or no kids while mom/wives works.


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## landysmods (Feb 9, 2019)

Gender is so old fashioned.  Transhumanism is where it's at.


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## KidIce (Feb 9, 2019)

Esjay131 said:


> "Biologically" gender isn't a thing. It wasn't until recently in human history that gender = sex. Sex and gender are not the same thing, and gender originally as a word meant quite a few things, including peoples mannerisms and roles. For instance, men having a typically womens job, such as sewing, looming, cooking, etc.



My World Book 1983 Dictionary absolutely defines gender as sex (also the grouping of nouns into classes such as male, female or neuter; and one of such classes) and declares the kind/sort/class definition to be archaic. I'm not trying to say that your "until recently" comment is wrong (1983 isn't exactly very long ago in the whole of human history or the English language), but my point here is that people who believe the word to be synonymous w/ sex aren't inaccurate. It is a valid definition of the word.

I couldn't care less how one identifies and/or chooses to display that identity. I'm not homo/trans/etc.-phobic or insensitive to the issues that often causes someone who isn't cisgender. The thing is though, most of these discussions end up turning in to fights because both sides are under the impression the word CANNOT mean both things. So person "A" who looks it up in his Webster's Big Book o' Words and reads and follows the "sex" definition is usually branded an ignorant bigot/Nazi by person "B" who follows the "identifies as" definition. Person "A" also then usually brands person "B" as a lunatic... Neither brand is fair or necessarily correct, though.

The whole discussion is usually pretty pointless when discussed this way, most people can't be convinced to accept the other definition as valid. And fighting over it isn't a good plan if you actually care about and want to do something about the real issues... The problems LGBTQ people face due to bigotry and intolerance and their rights to live/present as they choose. Tackle that instead, fighting over the word "gender" isn't winning any friends on either side and only fans the flames IMO. I just can't see it as anything but a waste of energy and a blockade to fixing the real problem.


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## Something whatever (Feb 9, 2019)

It's 2019. You're socially allowed to be into whatever you want.


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## XDel (Feb 9, 2019)

Esjay131 said:


> "Biologically" gender isn't a thing. It wasn't until recently in human history that gender = sex. Sex and gender are not the same thing, and gender originally as a word meant quite a few things, including peoples mannerisms and roles. For instance, men having a typically womens job, such as sewing, looming, cooking, etc.



The word "woman" is derived from the words "womb" and "man". The word "womb" is in fact a biological indicator, hence the denotation.


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## Captain_N (Feb 9, 2019)

Something whatever said:


> It's 2019. You're socially allowed to be into whatever you want.



This is true, but now society makes others except it or your called a hater. You can be loss jobs over not calling someone their proper pronoun.


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## AmandaRose (Feb 9, 2019)

XDel said:


> The word "woman" is derived from the words "womb" and "man". The word "womb" is in fact a biological indicator, hence the denotation.


You are so wrong lol but nice try. 
Its actually a misconception that the term "woman" is etymologically connected to "womb". "Womb" is actually from the Old English word wambe meaning "stomach" (modern German retains the colloquial term "Wampe" from Middle High German for "potbelly").

The spelling of "woman" in English has progressed over the past millennium from wīfmann to wīmmann to wumman, and finally, the modern spelling woman. In Old English, wīfmann meant "female human", whereas wēr meant "male human". Mann or monn had a gender-neutral meaning of "human", corresponding to Modern English "person" or "someone"; however, subsequent to the Norman Conquest, man began to be used more in reference to "male human", and by the late 13th century had begun to eclipse usage of the older term wēr. The medial labial consonants f and m in wīfmann coalesced into the modern form "woman", while the initial element wīf, which meant "female", underwent semantic narrowing to the sense of a married woman ("wife").


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## KingVamp (Feb 9, 2019)

There are exceptions to the "rules", but genetics still have rules.


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## Something whatever (Feb 9, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> This is true, but now society makes others except it or your called a hater. You can be loss jobs over not calling someone their proper pronoun.


.....Yup which is why I call everyone "mec" *dude in french* if  I don't know the gender. Almost happened to me at work >_>.


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## vinstage (Feb 9, 2019)

Technically there's only two _sex's _for sure that's science.

However gender is however you identify yourself so you can determine your gender however you want, it's your identity.
Like your virginity, you can actually determine what's losing your virginity and what isn't. That's my take on it anyway, as long as it doesn't harm anyone then sure but there'll always be controversy on it. 

We have these kind of discussions in my psychology class. Amazing.


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## FAST6191 (Feb 9, 2019)

azoreseuropa said:


> What do you mean There are only two genders. Change my mind ? I dont understand.


Change my mind is a format some like to use when discussing a position that some consider to be ill informed or outrageous. "This is my position, I know you may no like it so make your case as to why I am wrong" being a fairly good alternative phrasing.

As for two genders then as I understand it then it has two main paths.

1) Some people use it as a shorthand for denying the need to acknowledge aspects of transgenderism/transgender individuals. This breaks down several more times as there are a lot of aspects to the debate for some people -- some simply mean it as a statement that transgender does not exist, others would say it does exist but then have other thoughts on how one should approach it.
Others still would take other paths that others find very odd and also appear to fly in the face of generally accepted biology, medicine and observed reality.

2) There are some people in the world that like to say there are basically infinite genders.

---

I already went with my thoughts on the matter as a whole ( https://gbatemp.net/threads/there-are-only-two-genders-change-my-mind.502144/page-5#post-7939807 ). Though for the sake of the simplistic thing I would say there are two genders, and I don't care what your head reckons it is and whether that matches the genitals you were born with.
The people I was referring to in the latter part of 1) would typically be called social constructivists. They often say that sex and gender is a thing made up by man and thus can be anything you want it to mean, this despite clear and observable traits wherever you go in the world, however far removed different humans are from each other, regardless of whether you find some isolated tribe in the jungle or someone in a big city, whether you look at babies that can't know anything, whether you look at animals, whether you look at edge cases (damaged genitals), when you throw around hormones into people and observe the results...
It gets even more fun if you want to consider history -- old school European aristocracy had high heels as the height of fashion for men, long nails have also long been a sign that you don't have to work with your hands, some would tell me that blue and pink swapped as the colours for a given gender at one point. Yet today they are what they are with regards to being associated with a given gender.

For 2) then I quite like the following video for highlighting how ridiculous it can be


If you want to box up aspects of your personality and give it a proper noun then so be it. Why I would care to have it supplant or basically render infinite and thus unknowable the otherwise useful concept of gender I do not know.


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## XDel (Feb 10, 2019)

AmandaRose said:


> You are so wrong lol but nice try.
> Its actually a misconception that the term "woman" is etymologically connected to "womb". "Womb" is actually from the Old English word wambe meaning "stomach" (modern German retains the colloquial term "Wampe" from Middle High German for "potbelly").
> 
> The spelling of "woman" in English has progressed over the past millennium from wīfmann to wīmmann to wumman, and finally, the modern spelling woman. In Old English, wīfmann meant "female human", whereas wēr meant "male human". Mann or monn had a gender-neutral meaning of "human", corresponding to Modern English "person" or "someone"; however, subsequent to the Norman Conquest, man began to be used more in reference to "male human", and by the late 13th century had begun to eclipse usage of the older term wēr. The medial labial consonants f and m in wīfmann coalesced into the modern form "woman", while the initial element wīf, which meant "female", underwent semantic narrowing to the sense of a married woman ("wife").



I was just reading up on this, I believe you have some info correct, though I am seeing the Latin origins being in the 1500's, though that is neither here nor their. That being said, the problem with Entomology, is that much of it is hard to trace, and often times, the Chinese, Egyptians, Indians, etc. that schooled the Greeks, Romans, and generally the whole back bone of modern history; never seem to have their place in the records. Either way, distinction between genders is noted far before the 13th century; early Christian texts being but one of many examples, and there are of course far older examples too.


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## BiggieCheese (Feb 10, 2019)

It’s pretty funny when the people that constantly make fun of  “special snowflakes” for being PC and getting mad at words then turn around and get mad at them for using certain words.


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## bigretromike (Feb 12, 2019)

you are right, no point in changing your mind.


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## Lucifer666 (Feb 12, 2019)

osaka35 said:


> There's also XXY, XY female presenting (testosterone doesn't have the affect it normally does), XX male presenting (large levels of testosterone), and so on and so forth. Biology isn't as neat and clean as you'd hope. You just learn it that way because it's "close enough" for highschool level of knowledge, and that decision really needs to be addressed. Because if you want to be completely accurate, there's a lot more going on. Reality is far more interesting than you, and a lot of folks, give it credit. There's also a difference between sex and gender  You're talking just about sex when talking about chromosomes, and you're talking about gender when you discuss how people express their sex.
> 
> And transgender is another topic altogether  That's when the brain develops as one while the body develops as another (usually). Since we value the person rather than the body, we go with how the person is rather than how they look.


Just wanna give credit here to the only addition to this discussion worth anything. Acknowledges all sexual variations in biology, acknowledges that gender is often a social construct, and that transgender people experience a deeply rooted identity mismatch beyond their choice or control.


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## Waygeek (Feb 13, 2019)

Captain_N said:


> Maybe they will be making up races also.



Ethnic groups exist. People's arguments is that this concept may extend to people's genders. Whether you or I agree or don't agree with that.


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## notimp (Feb 13, 2019)

You can not be fired for addressing someone with the wrong pronoun. And if you were, get a lawyer to get some money out of that company on your way out. 

Leaving wrong sentiments like that stand, is what creates most of the animosity, so lets not.

Also would it hurt you to stop posting youtuber clickbait? (Peppe the Frog and gangsigns? I dont think you are helping.  )


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## bitjacker (Feb 13, 2019)

I really hope that gender dysphoria is added back in to the dsm 6


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## SG854 (Feb 28, 2019)

vinstage said:


> Technically there's only two _sex's _for sure that's science.
> 
> However gender is however you identify yourself so you can determine your gender however you want, it's your identity.
> Like your virginity, you can actually determine what's losing your virginity and what isn't. That's my take on it anyway, as long as it doesn't harm anyone then sure but there'll always be controversy on it.
> ...


There’s 2 genders. There is problem with misinformation on this subject, and it’s something that won’t die either. You would have to listen to what sex researchers have to say, and not mainstream media because they’re not reliable.

Researchers would tell you, with thousands of studies, that Gender is binary and is not a social construct. 2 sexes, 2 genders. Anything else is not scientifically accurate. The 96+ genders people choose to identify as doesn’t exist.

You won’t find any scientific research that backs gender as a “social construct” if you ask people to show you. For 99% of people biological sex matches gender identity. Gender non binary, gender neutral, doesn’t exist

Environment plays a role in shaping people, but can’t override biology. If not then you can raise a transgender to not be transgender if it were environmental.

Debra Soh (she’s a sex researcher), has a good video on this topic. She even explains the intersex argument that people bring up which is not proof of anything, or the flawed study of male and female brains being the same.

Here’s her video.


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## vinstage (Feb 28, 2019)

SG854 said:


> There’s 2 genders. There is problem with misinformation on this subject, and it’s something that won’t die either. You would have to listen to what sex researchers have to say, and not mainstream media because they’re not reliable.
> 
> Researchers would tell you, with thousands of studies, that Gender is binary and is not a social construct. 2 sexes, 2 genders. Anything else is not scientifically accurate. The 96+ genders people choose to identify as doesn’t exist.
> 
> ...



Snip since i'm watching the video now and shouldn't have actually been so arrogant but thanks for following up on it. Frankly I believe it was mostly my tutor's personal beliefs given to us under the impression of educating us which has happened a few times before but my own fault for really adbsorbing it so quickly.


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## camW00dS (Mar 4, 2019)

Agree


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