# Xbox One Official Requirements: Waive Your Rights



## Rydian (Jun 13, 2013)

The official requirements in order to play video games on the Xbox One have been posted on Microsoft's site.  While one or two of these requirements (broadband connection, Kinect connected, etc.) have caused quite a stir already, it seems that's only part of the "new vision" Microsoft has.

In addition to *waiving your class-action lawsuit rights upon activation of the console*, the system requires a 720P+ display (it will have no SD mode), TV play needs your tuner to plug into the Xbox One with HDMI, and *the required Xbox One service will only be available in select regions*, meaning users who import will likely need a proxy or VPN to keep their Xbox One connected through in order to keep playing their games if they don't live in one of the supported countries.


Spoiler: List Of Countries




Australia
Austria
Belgium
Brazil
Canada
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Ireland
Italy
Mexico
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Russia
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
United States



Source


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## Nathan Drake (Jun 13, 2013)

I feel like Microsoft is trying to make this the worst console in history just to see if they can still actually sell it.

On a related note, what word is there on the PS4 supporting standard definition picture? Looking at the back of the system in pictures, I don't exactly see a place for anything but HDMI to plug in, but I may have been looking at one of the ports wrong.


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## Arras (Jun 13, 2013)

So among other things half the world (including East Europe) gets fucked over. Okay. I think that "no suing" thing was in Sony's TOS as well, wasn't it? And 720p only, huh. I still have an old CRT... but I wasn't planning on getting a One anyway. Besides, my TV doesn't even have a HDMI port so I wouldn't be able to connect it anyway.


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## Deleted member 473940 (Jun 13, 2013)

the list is... quite small o.o


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## Bladexdsl (Jun 13, 2013)

also you now need XBL to even use the damn thing even if you only plan to use single player


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## Ryupower (Jun 13, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> I feel like Microsoft is trying to make this the worst console in history just to see if they can still actually sell it.
> 
> On a related note, what word is there on the PS4 supporting standard definition picture? Looking at the back of the system in pictures, I don't exactly see a place for anything but HDMI to plug in, but I may have been looking at one of the ports wrong.


http://www.siliconera.com/2013/06/1...raight-from-sony-system-has-500gb-hard-drive/

*AV output*
HDMI out port
DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL) port
for the ps4 it look like it needs HDMI as well

i think the Aux port is for the Ps4Eye


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## Nathan Drake (Jun 13, 2013)

I looked into it real quick, and yeah, PS4 only supports HD as well, so anybody with a CRT best be looking at getting a new TV or consider a Wii U as their next gen choice. It's not a surprise that SD is on its way out though. Let's face it: HD has become very main stream in the market, and I personally know very few console gamers beside myself who still have a CRT that they game on.

Edit: Slightly ninja'd.


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## FAST6191 (Jun 13, 2013)

Someone did mention this new link somewhere else but I reckon it warrants a thread of its.

Though no less distasteful the class action thing is quite common ( http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/07/valve-to-steam-users-no-class-action-suits/ and http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20107825-1/questioning-sonys-new-class-action-waiver/ being Valve's and Sony's equivalents).

That is a large chunk of Europe missing though (Portugal -- there are a not insignificant amount of games with a translation there), Poland... actually basically everything east of Germany and south of Finland. Doubly amusing is if it is not the UK, France or Germany then chances are the game is developed in a lot of those if it is made in Europe.


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## Rydian (Jun 13, 2013)

Arras said:


> Okay. I think that "no suing" thing was in Sony's TOS as well, wasn't it?


Sony added it to the PSN ToS later, which isn't required to use the system itself or your (disc) games.


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## Nathan Drake (Jun 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Sony added it to the PSN ToS later, which isn't required to use the system itself or your (disc) games.


Wasn't it part of the PSN blackout clean up, in order to stem the flow of legal attacks against them?


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## Danny600kill (Jun 13, 2013)

So definitely no XboxOne for all of our guys/gals over in Afghanistan/Iraq ect which is a real shame 

HD only was expected to be fair but that list is surprisingly short


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## Rydian (Jun 13, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> Wasn't it part of the PSN blackout clean up, in order to stem the flow of legal attacks against them?


That's what I recall too.


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## Arras (Jun 13, 2013)

But hey guys, who needs rights and privacy and ease of use and all that when you have Halo and Forza? Right?


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## Frank Cadena (Jun 13, 2013)

Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot by excluding 2 of the fastest growing game markets, China and India. Sure, they plan to set up the infrastructure for the Asian markets sometime in 2014 but that is almost a year after XBone's release. Compared to the PS4, whose lack of on-line requirements means that they could get a PS4 at launch day and it's attractive $399 price tag, this might just prove to be a severe blow to Microsoft especially with the Asian casual gamer market whom by then would have probably bought themselves a Wii U or PS4.


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## Costello (Jun 13, 2013)

China's not in the list ... that rules me out 
well, I wasn't gonna get One anyway


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## Bladexdsl (Jun 13, 2013)

can microsoft not see that they're digging their own graves in the console market? maybe they've had enough and this is their way of saying we're leaving


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## Ethevion (Jun 13, 2013)

Arras said:


> But hey guys, who needs rights and privacy and ease of use and all that when you have Halo and Forza? Right?


 
Honestly, I'm still getting it, even if it's just for Forza. I hate the console, it looks like shit, has features I'll never use, but that 1 game is what I really want.


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## DCG (Jun 13, 2013)

Well, too bad for MS.
You can't waive your right to a class action case in Europe (or at least in Holland).

Also, if I understand correctly.
You need to connect your cable/satalite/thingy to the decoder box and the HDMI output from the decoder has to be connected to the XBone, which in turn connects to the tv and thus handles every television control?
That would mean that a lot of costumers of Caiway (my tv provider) can't even use it... as their cable is digital, but doesn't require a decoder box. The TV itself can decode everything if it is equipped with a DVB-C (HD) tuner.
((all standard channels are without coding), only paid channels need a decoder, which can be plugged in the TV (if it is a somewhat recent one)).

I think MS went beyond Full Retard with the One...


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## IBNobody (Jun 13, 2013)

Keep in mind that the list of countries are for launch only. They plan on releasing the system in other foreign and Asian markets in 2014.



Bladexdsl said:


> can microsoft not see that they're digging their own graves in the console market? maybe they've had enough and this is their way of saying we're leaving


 

Microsoft understands that they are changing the system, and that consumers do not like change. They hope you'll come to accept their vision once you see the benefits, like you did with the Zune and Windows Vista.


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## Bladexdsl (Jun 13, 2013)

IBNobody said:


> Keep in mind that the list of countries are for launch only. They plan on releasing the system in other foreign and Asian markets in 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO you work for them or what?! and I will never accept their VISION (fuck up more like it) and so will over 9000 million others. and I've never owned a zune or windows vista


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## Rydian (Jun 13, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> LMAO you work for them or what?! and I will never accept their VISION (fuck up more like it) and so will over 9000 million others. and I've never owned a zune or windows vista


Joke





You

The Zune and Vista were almost universally-despised, _that's the point_.


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## Arras (Jun 13, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> LMAO you work for them or what?! and I will never accept their VISION (fuck up more like it) and so will over 9000 million others. and I've never owned a zune or windows vista









And yeah, it's stupid that you need a decoder box to use the TV stuff. Then again, this thing seems to be aimed at America and America only, maybe decoder boxes are more common there?


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## Rydian (Jun 13, 2013)

Yeah in the US you need a decoder box even with basic cable most of the time.  They're really fucking paranoid about cable theft and so depending on your plan you might need one box per TV!


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## IBNobody (Jun 13, 2013)

Arras said:


> And yeah, it's stupid that you need a decoder box to use the TV stuff. Then again, this thing seems to be aimed at America and America only, maybe decoder boxes are more common there?


 
Everybody has a cable box. That's what makes the XBox One redundant.


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## geishroy (Jun 13, 2013)

already mentioned in other USN thread, not sure if this one needs another. http://gbatemp.net/threads/fortunat...ant-connect-its-called-xbox-360.349347/page-5

pretty fun to see microsoft rape themselves though


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## Arras (Jun 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Yeah in the US you need a decoder box even with basic cable most of the time. They're really fucking paranoid about cable theft and so depending on your plan you might need one box per TV!


That explains that, at least. I think cable boxes and similar things are pretty rare here in the Netherlands (don't quote me on that), so the TV features would be pretty much useless here.


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## BrightNeko (Jun 13, 2013)

sums it all up pretty well


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## The Real Jdbye (Jun 13, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> I feel like Microsoft is trying to make this the worst console in history just to see if they can still actually sell it.
> 
> On a related note, what word is there on the PS4 supporting standard definition picture? Looking at the back of the system in pictures, I don't exactly see a place for anything but HDMI to plug in, but I may have been looking at one of the ports wrong.


 
^ This. 
That list is terribly short, as if the online DRM wasn't bad enough.


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## DinohScene (Jun 13, 2013)

MS, you just dug your own grave.


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## BORTZ (Jun 13, 2013)

Even the WiiU sounds more appealing.


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## Joe88 (Jun 13, 2013)

Costello said:


> China's not in the list ... that rules me out
> well, I wasn't gonna get One anyway


Don't worry, I don't think anyone want One anyway


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## jonesman99 (Jun 13, 2013)

IBNobody said:


> Keep in mind that the list of countries are for launch only. They plan on releasing the system in other foreign and Asian markets in 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok... I still own 2 Zunes and used to have a laptop with Vista on it, neither of which were as restrictive as this new console. The Zune line was less restrictive than the iPod at the time. Microsoft is getting out of hand now. At least with Sony, they tred to cover themselves 4-5 years after release, but M$ is putting up defenses before the console is even out, and its to the point that they are starting to alienate people with their "Vision".


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## evandixon (Jun 13, 2013)

Anyone using an Xbox 360 already waived their class action lawsuit rights.


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## RupeeClock (Jun 13, 2013)

It gets even worse you know.
https://twitter.com/iiWindSlashr/status/345165055265996800

"You can turn on the Xbox One by saying "Xbox On" we don't have specifics on a physical power button at this time"


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## Taleweaver (Jun 13, 2013)

Rydian said:


> ...and *the required Xbox One service will only be available in select regions*, meaning users who import will likely need a proxy or VPN to keep their Xbox One connected through in order to keep playing their games if they don't live in one of the supported countries.


You have GOT to be kidding me. 

*checks source*

*checks source again*

Guys...is xbox.com hacked or something? I simply cannot believe they're pulling this off. 


Okay, the list will obviously grow when the thing gets released in Azia, but still...nothing in Africa? Only partially in South America and Oceania? Greece? Turkey? Portugal? Eastern fucking Europe? And all of this is just from the top of my head, mind you! FFS, microsoft. Will you at least TRY to sell your console?

Also: lol at Luxembourg.


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## Arras (Jun 13, 2013)

RupeeClock said:


> It gets even worse you know.
> https://twitter.com/iiWindSlashr/status/345165055265996800
> 
> "You can turn on the Xbox One by saying "Xbox On" we don't have specifics on a physical power button at this time"


For those conspiracy theorists of you: this means the microphone is on at all times, monitoring you. Of course this data is not necessarily saved, but it is a possibility. 

https://twitter.com/XboxSupport2/status/345188576562126849
It does have an on button though.



Taleweaver said:


> You have GOT to be kidding me.
> 
> *checks source*
> 
> ...


Vatican is not on that list either. I guess that means no XBone for the pope


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## Issac (Jun 13, 2013)

Setting: Inside your living room with friends over for a party.

Friend:  "Hey guys, I saw an ad for the *Xbox on* TV"
-Starting Xbone-
Everyone: "whuuuut?"


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## Dust2dust (Jun 13, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> LMAO you work for them or what?! and I will never accept their VISION (fuck up more like it) and so will over 9000 million others. and I've never owned a zune or windows vista


He was being sarcastic with zune and vista.  It's a joke.


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## Hop2089 (Jun 13, 2013)

Microsoft=Acceptable corporate target

My god how restrictive their anal bomb of a console is, no SD option, sure HDTVs are very cheap these days, I own two, one I bought with 3D capability and one without 3D that my mother sent to me for Christmas years ago since she got 3 for cheap and only needed two, but in some locations like Brazil and Mexico, some people may not have a clue what an HDTV is even in America this is the case.  Then there's the HDMI cable, people who aren't aware of sites like Newegg won't know how cheap they are compared to the overpriced variants at Best Buy.


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## Damian666 (Jun 13, 2013)

this is the deepest grave I've seen someone dig... EVER... xd


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## Dust2dust (Jun 13, 2013)

Hop2089 said:


> ...some people may not have a clue what an HDTV is even in America this is the case.


 
If people are aware of the existence of Xbox One, but not the existence of HDTVs, there is a real problem, don't you think?


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## Ethevion (Jun 13, 2013)

Damian666 said:


> this is the deepest grave I've seen someone dig... EVER... xd


 
I wonder if they'll try to dig deeper? Maybe for a world record or something?


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## Hop2089 (Jun 13, 2013)

Dust2dust said:


> If people are aware of the existence of Xbox One, but not the existence of HDTVs, there is a real problem, don't you think?


 
You never know, technophobia and ignorance of technology still exists in the West.


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## Damian666 (Jun 13, 2013)

Sagat said:


> I wonder if they'll try to dig deeper? Maybe for a world record or something?


 
if they do, they end up in china proberly xd

guess there getting their XB1 early afterall


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## Chary (Jun 13, 2013)

Xbox. Xbox...just...stop.


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## boombox (Jun 13, 2013)

I wouldn't be surprised if the console sales completely failed. It's the dumbest and most elitist decision they have every made, and they are going to regret it.
They really need to alter their idea before it comes out, or suffer the consequences of making no profit.

The majority of die hard Xbox users I have spoken to said they'd rather get the PS4. 
Is it true that it's not being released in Japan too?!

Despicable.


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## Ray Lewis (Jun 13, 2013)

MS probably saved a lot of money letting the NSA put together this spy device for them while giving it the ability to play games.  Lol, but to play the games you will need to go online.  Kinect stuff flat out scares privacy types.  Class action lawsuits...might have something to do with the 360, lol, RROD anyone???  "If/when we f you and you figure it out you won't be able to file a lawsuit with others."  This joke keeps getting funnier.  I anxiously await seeing sales numbers then return figures as well--as in how many get returned.  I BET stores will have a hidden, "Non-refundable" policy.  Meaning, you may return it in exchange for a "Non defective" system but your money is spent and gone, lmfao.  Anyone want to place friendly bets on this?


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## raulpica (Jun 13, 2013)

Costello said:


> China's not in the list ... that rules me out
> well, I wasn't gonna get One anyway


As soon as I read the list my first thought was "No China? That means a sad Costello" and I was going to post that, but you saw this earlier than I did 



Dust2dust said:


> If people are aware of the existence of Xbox One, but not the existence of HDTVs, there is a real problem, don't you think?


There's a really good friend of mine which is an avid 360 player, he plays on Live daily (got Gold), has played every 1st party title and owns a crapload of 3rd party games.

He does all that on an SD TV and has NO intention of upgrading to HD, either. Looks like he won't have be an _XBoner_


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## dalc789 (Jun 13, 2013)

Microsoft.  What are you doing?  Microsoft.  STAHP


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## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 13, 2013)

Good god, the news gets worse and worse.  You know what's sad? It will still sell really well.  And here I was thinking that the Japanese were the crazy people of the world, turns out they're still more sane than Microsoft.


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## WiiUBricker (Jun 13, 2013)

I think it's a matter of time until MS fixes the Xbox One. I can't imagine they will go forward with their idea of games when their competitors do things the right way.


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## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 13, 2013)

They won't and can't, they've already locked themselves into place by opening preorders.  If they stopped and "fixed" it, they would have to cancel all the preorders on the premesis of false advertising.  M$ won't do that.


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## fluffykiwi (Jun 13, 2013)

oh and do not think you are getting to use all the 500 Gb from the internal drive.




> Xbox One system software uses a significant amount of storage; less internal storage will be available to users.


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## Attila13 (Jun 13, 2013)

Well....
Fuck you Microsoft!
They lost the remaining trust they ever had from me!
After this I will never trust and support Microsoft again! 
Fuck them!

I'll get the PS4 anyway, but I still had some faith in them that they'll make something to correct things...but it seems that I was wrong!
Microsoft.


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## 1ManClan (Jun 13, 2013)

Wow this is insane! I love my 360 and actually own 3 consoles. But I will not buy this console, I refuse, I will stick with my 360 until they stop supporting it then I will probly go back to PC gaming. I haven't been a pc gamer in almost 8 years but I refuse to go along with this! We all need to stay away from this console and they will eventually realize they have to change! The way thing are going the next gen after this will involve having to buy their tv and who knows what else!  ***Also why is this even legal, how can any business say they can't be sued, it seem like their should be a law against this sort of madness!


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## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 13, 2013)

fluffykiwi said:


> oh and do not think you are getting to use all the 500 Gb from the internal drive.


 
they said 500 billion bytes = 465.7 GB which i believe is within normal formatting loss.  I think they are just disclaiming this to save their own asses some trouble.


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## Rayder (Jun 13, 2013)

I don't like the fact that just to own an Xbone, you need to pay a monthly/yearly fee for their XBOX network stuff, even if you never intend to play a game online or buy any downloads.  Lose internet access for a couple days and all you have is an overpriced DVD/BD player.  As far as gaming (the primary reason anyone would bother with it) you would have a brick.

The most unfortunate thing is the fact that there will be suckers who will buy it and see nothing wrong with all these restrictions.  And for what, because they gotta have some silly game that's exclusive to that system?  Those poor gullible deluded fools.

And let's say the general population IS smarter than I give them credit for and the system sales are abysmal, how many games do you think will be made for a system with no install base?  So then, the few suckers who bought it will have a system that requires a monthly/yearly fee to avoid being a brick, and no (or a very limited amount) of games being made for it.  How warm-and-fuzzy will that make you feel?

The way I see it, MS has their pant leg caught in the bike chain, they'll need to do some backpedaling to continue moving forward.  Because as their policies stand now, at MS the Xbone plays you.....for a sucker.


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## grossaffe (Jun 13, 2013)




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## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

No Poland?

Oh-ho! Ah-ha! Microsoft is pulling an XBox 1_ (appropriate, since this is XBox One)_, this is the second time they're not launching XBox live in my country. You have got to be kidding me, this is just rich!


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## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 13, 2013)

Rayder said:


> I don't like the fact that just to own an Xbone, you need to pay a monthly/yearly fee for their XBOX network stuff, even if you never intend to play a game online or buy any downloads.
> -snip-


 
Just reread the pre-order disclaimer, it doesn't say that you need Xbox Gold for their services, just Xbox Live.  Unless they changed something, Xbox Live is activated just by having a silver account which is completely free.


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## Tokiopop (Jun 13, 2013)

They must be high.



Foxi4 said:


> No Poland?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't get it. Why is this funny?


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## totalnoob617 (Jun 13, 2013)

IBNobody said:


> Everybody has a cable box. That's what makes the XBox One redundant.


 
I don't know why they wouldn't make it like the hd tivo box, you don't connect a cable box to it like the sd tivo you have to call the cable company and they rent you a decoder card that goes inside it.
and the card is much cheaper per month than a hd cable box


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## Chary (Jun 13, 2013)

Way to make Americans look even more stupid, Microsoft.


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## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

Tokiopop said:


> I don't get it. Why is this funny?


 
XBox Live and Poland have a history y'see. Originally _(XBox 1 and early 360 times)_ the service wasn't even available around here at all until late 2010 due to _"low sales"_ and what-not, but the fact that Microsoft launched an Anti-Piracy campaign _a few months_ before the service itself would point at concerns regarding piracy rather than the actual sales.

Now Poland's not on the list of countries supported by XBL... meaning Microsoft is pulling the same old crap again with the XBox One. History goes full circle.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jun 13, 2013)

I don't get it, what is it with these companies that won't let you sue them if something gets fucked up? It's not right.

Like, I don't understand, how are they getting away with this? There has to be some sort of law against it.


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## kristianity77 (Jun 13, 2013)

Not that I have any intention of buying an Xbone, but having not watched anything apart from the E3 presentations, does the Xbone required Xbox Live GOLD as minimum to even use?  That cannot be right surely?  Can it?


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## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

kristianity77 said:


> Not that I have any intention of buying an Xbone, but having not watched anything apart from the E3 presentations, does the Xbone required Xbox Live GOLD as minimum to even use? That cannot be right surely? Can it?


 
No, the system can perform the online checks via a Silver account.


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## AngryGeek416 (Jun 13, 2013)

I got two things to say
- anyone without a HDTV get one, it's 2013 I can't play on SD. It's as much as a step back as playing in black and white, games are designed for HDTV now and there cheap as dirt.
- anyone who after all this still wants to purchase the xbox one has some sort of mental deficiency, even more so are the people who pre ordered.


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## ShadowSoldier (Jun 13, 2013)

CanuckBuck said:


> I got two things to say
> - anyone without a HDTV get one, it's 2013 I can't play on SD. It's as much as a step back as playing in black and white, games are designed for HDTV now and there cheap as dirt.
> - anyone who after all this still wants to purchase the xbox one has some sort of mental deficiency, even more so are the people who pre ordered.


 
Or you know, some people kept the SD tv because they have older consoles hooked up to it. Like me.

I have both an HDTV and SDTV CRT tv in my room side by side. One for NES - GameCube/ps2


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## AngryGeek416 (Jun 13, 2013)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Or you know, some people kept the SD tv because they have older consoles hooked up to it. Like me.
> 
> I have both an HDTV and SDTV CRT tv in my room side by side. One for NES - GameCube/ps2


 
That's different I have a CRT with my old consoles hooked up as well, but people are buying or planning on buying the PS4, Xbox One or Wii U and using them on SDTV's.. that's just ridiculous


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## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 13, 2013)

CanuckBuck said:


> I got two things to say
> - anyone without a HDTV get one, it's 2013 I can't play on SD. It's as much as a step back as playing in black and white, games are designed for HDTV now and there cheap as dirt.
> - anyone who after all this still wants to purchase the xbox one has some sort of mental deficiency, even more so are the people who pre ordered.


 
They make adapter/converters for a reason also, I'd be interested to see if you could fake the HDMI output and input with an adapter.  If you could, I would totally send a pic to Microsoft with the caption of "old schooling it like 2000" or something just to shove it in their face.

I seriously hope something major goes wrong with their servers that they put so much money into during the first month and people won't be able to play games.  That would crush them and the always online idea for the generation after this and would totally make my day.


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## Sicklyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

CanuckBuck said:


> I got two things to say
> - anyone without a HDTV get one, it's 2013 I can't play on SD. It's as much as a step back as playing in black and white, games are designed for HDTV now and there cheap as dirt.
> - anyone who after all this still wants to purchase the xbox one has some sort of mental deficiency, even more so are the people who pre ordered.
> 
> ...


 
Or, you know, the fact that "cheap as dirt" is still not cheap for a decent sized tv when your family doesn't make much money.

I can go to my front lawn and get a bucket of dirt for free.  THAT is cheap.

A TV that costs >$500 is not cheap, nor is it free.

Also, we have an HDTV, but it's a first gen one, before HDMI existed. It's an HD CRT tv.


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## RedCoreZero (Jun 13, 2013)

Can't wait to see if this sells.


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## JoostinOnline (Jun 13, 2013)

It's not just SDTV's that this affects.  Neither the PS4 or Xbox One will support first or second generation HDTV's, because those used component, not HDMI.


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## orcid (Jun 13, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Now Poland's not on the list of countries supported by XBL... meaning Microsoft is pulling the same old crap again with the XBox One. History goes full circle.


No, it is not the same. Before you could import the hardware and use it.
It is one thing not selling a piece of hardware in one country, but not allowing to use the hardware in specific countries - especially in a more and more united europe - is absolutely ridiculous and an impertinence. You pay no costums, can travel abroad the border with llitle or no controls and have even the same currency in many countries, but you can use the xboxone only in certain countries. Crazy.
For example I live in Vienna. In less than an hour you are in Bratislava. Many people from Vienna like to go shopping in Bratislava and vice versa. No big deal. Besides the language (and some liitle other things) you won't even realize anymore that you are going to another country. But the slovakian people who buy a xboxone here in austria won't be able to play a single game at home. WTF!
Being not able to use a country specific service is another cup of tea, but you won't be able to use the hardware at all.


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## trumpet-205 (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm pretty sure X1 and PS4 will use HDCP, making HDMI to component active converter useless.

Honestly speaking, people by now should have HDTV. If you don't have the budget for one at least get a PC monitor with HDMI input. Think about it, seventh generation ditched low definition resolution (240p & 360p). Now we are in the process of ditching standard definition (480p).


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## kehkou (Jun 13, 2013)

I never took M$ seriously in the console market because they have no business there. Now its to the point where you get a cablebox (to use in conjunction with a real cablebox) that happens to play games. and select regions? That's intentionally limiting installed base. M$ missed the foot and shot themselves in the head.



trumpet-205 said:


> I'm pretty sure X1 and PS4 will use HDCP, making HDMI to component active converter useless.
> 
> Honestly speaking, people by now should have HDTV. If you don't have the budget for one at least get a PC monitor with HDMI input. Think about it, seventh generation ditched low definition resolution (240p & 360p). Now we are in the process of ditching standard definition (480p).


 
HDTV is unicorn rare here in NM. I know about maybe 6 people with them.

[Obligitory Wii U PS4 master race FTW! comment]


----------



## jomaper (Jun 13, 2013)

Sagat said:


> I wonder if they'll try to dig deeper? Maybe for a world record or something?


 
They want to get to China haha


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 13, 2013)

ShawnTRods said:


> the list is... quite small o.o


 

Much like Steve Ballmer's manhood. This won't alienate gamers at all!

Force people to get an HDTV? $300
Force people to get Broadband? ~$400-500/year depending on the ISP
Force people to to pay for a secure VPN? ~$200/year or so
Force people to use Kinnect and waive their personal rights? Priceless


Indeed, Microsoft has won the Scumbag Company of the Year Award. Props to them.


----------



## Nathan Drake (Jun 13, 2013)

For anybody still unclear about the required HDMI input:
*Both the PS4 and the Xbox One will require an HDMI input. There will be no standard component cable, nor will there be a way to use them on either console. This isn't just something you can get angry at Microsoft over.*

If you still game with a CRT and see no way to get yourself an HDTV (w/ HDMI input), fortunately for you, you've already been pushed down to one, already available next gen choice. If Nintendo isn't your cup of tea and you really want a PS4, you'll likely have to spend your money on a new TV before you'll be able to buy a new console. As unfortunate as it is, there is a tech mainstream that companies conform to, and HD is one of those trends that caught and held in many places.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Force people to get an HDTV? $300
> Force people to get Broadband? ~$400-500/year depending on the ISP
> Force people to to pay for a secure VPN? ~$200/year or so
> Force people to use Kinnect and waive their personal rights? Priceless


 
There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's Sony Computer Entertainment.



Nathan Drake said:


> For anybody still unclear about the required HDMI input:
> *Both the PS4 and the Xbox One will require an HDMI input. There will be no standard component cable, nor will there be a way to use them on either console. This isn't just something you can get angry at Microsoft over.*


Both consoles output video in HD by default, there's only so much you can do to scale down to SD and nobody's going to go through the extra trouble just so that the cavemen catch up with reality. There's no reason not to own an HD TV in this day and age - save your CRT beasts for retro systems. I don't treat this as _"forcing"_ anything on the user, it's just _"moving away from obsolete technology"_.


----------



## Ethevion (Jun 13, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Indeed, Microsoft has won the Scumbag Company of the Year Award. Props to them.


 
Maybe the worst company award will be taken from EA and given to Microsoft. That would be quite the achievement.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 13, 2013)

CanuckBuck said:


> I got two things to say
> - anyone without a HDTV get one, it's 2013 I can't play on SD. It's as much as a step back as playing in black and white, games are designed for HDTV now and there cheap as dirt.



What is HD and what is proper PAL is not that different. Moreover many games are not in HD and are something lower and upscaled along the way (this especially on games the last few years as the consoles begin to show their age when used with modern development techniques). Also, as others have mentioned, this is not just "HD" TV but modern ones -- TVs have long been sold as long term investments as far as household goods go so some resistance is justifiable. I am drawn to wonder if I could stick a HDCP stripper in line and fire it into a DVI port though.



Foxi4 said:


> No Poland?
> 
> Oh-ho! Ah-ha! Microsoft is pulling an XBox 1_ (appropriate, since this is XBox One)_, this is the second time they're not launching XBox live in my country. You have got yo be kidding me, this is just rich!



Well it is not like Microsoft and Poland do not have a history
http://images.pcworld.com/news/graphics/170820-ms-photoshop-blunder_350.jpg


----------



## Zaide (Jun 13, 2013)

No Japan? Seriously?


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Well it is not like Microsoft and Poland do not have a history
> http://images.pcworld.com/news/graphics/170820-ms-photoshop-blunder_350.jpg
> **Das Racist!**


*Oh,Microsoft...*​ 
*



*​​*You done goofed again...*​*and again...*​*and again...*​


----------



## emigre (Jun 13, 2013)

Zaide said:


> No Japan? Seriously?


 

Yeah cause placing any emphasis on a home console launch in Japan is anything other than a bad idea.


----------



## Jax (Jun 13, 2013)

TIL my country is even shittier than I thought


----------



## AlhazenTheMad (Jun 13, 2013)

> Yeah cause placing any emphasis on a home console launch in Japan is anything other than a bad idea.


 
The Xbox One itself is a bad idea; it is so restrictive and anti-consumer. The Japanese people will not buy this crap. Additionally, it is big, cumbersome, and unsightly to look at, but that is just my opinion.


----------



## emigre (Jun 13, 2013)

AlhazenTheMad said:


> The Xbox One itself is a bad idea; it is so restrictive and anti-consumer. The Japanese people will not buy this crap. Additionally, it is big, cumbersome, and unsightly to look at, but that is just my opinion.


 

The Japanese gaming market has retreated to handhelds. Last gen the biggest two selling consoles were the handhelds. And now look at how well the 3DS is doing. The Xbone could be the greatest console of all time but it won't sell in Japan so place the emphasis on NA and EU. Which is a the correct decision. Sony are doing the same with Europe being upgraded to a priority market whereas previously Europe had been the poor relation. The Japanese people won;t buy the Xbone because of it's issues, they won't buy it because they are relatively apathetic towards home consoles.


----------



## Nathan Drake (Jun 13, 2013)

emigre said:


> The Japanese gaming market has retreated to handhelds. Last gen the biggest two selling consoles were the handhelds. And now look at how well the 3DS is doing. The Xbone could be the greatest console of all time but it won't sell in Japan so place the emphasis on NA and EU. Which is a the correct decision. Sony are doing the same with Europe being upgraded to a priority market whereas previously Europe had been the poor relation. The Japanese people won;t buy the Xbone because of it's issues, they won't buy it because they are relatively apathetic towards home consoles.


You can also add in the fact that the Xbox brand as a whole is a very western console series. The game releases on them don't really lend themselves to general Japanese consumer interest. Even by console standards, if I remember correctly, the 360 has sold abysmally in Japan simply due to the fact that it has little that would naturally appeal to a Japanese gamer. I don't imagine the Xbox One will be any different, other issues or not.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> You can also add in the fact that the Xbox brand as a whole is a very western console series. The game releases on them don't really lend themselves to general Japanese consumer interest. Even by console standards, if I remember correctly, the 360 has sold abysmally in Japan simply due to the fact that it has little that would naturally appeal to a Japanese gamer. I don't imagine the Xbox One will be any different, other issues or not.


 
Pretty much. If _"Monster Hunter: Frontier"_ couldn't give the XBox 360 the push it needed in Japan, nothing will. _"__Der Krieg ist verloren"_.


----------



## OriginalHamster (Jun 13, 2013)

Xbox go home


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jun 13, 2013)

I think it's funny that most people are pretending that Sony isn't doing the same thing with HDTV's.  Nintendo is the only company that still supports SDTV and early HDTV.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> I think it's funny that most people are pretending that Sony isn't doing the same thing with HDTV's. Nintendo is the only company that still supports SDTV and early HDTV.


 
We should just stop pretending that we need SDTV support just like we shouldn't pretend that we need floppy disk drives in today's desktops. We really, really don't.

The games render beyond the standard SD spectrum of resolutions and as such they cannot be supported properly on an SDTV without downscaling the image and that's that - sometimes you have to let go of old standards and embrace the new ones.


----------



## gokujr1000 (Jun 13, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> can microsoft not see that they're digging their own graves in the console market? maybe they've had enough and this is their way of saying we're leaving


 
I think they would just say it instead of wasting money.


----------



## Deleted_171835 (Jun 13, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Pretty much. If _"Monster Hunter: Frontier"_ couldn't give the XBox 360 the push it needed in Japan, nothing will. _"__Der Krieg ist verloren"_.


Don't think that's the best example, Monster Hunter on consoles aren't as popular as the handheld ones, not to mention that Frontier was a MMO spinoff. Portable 3rd HD and Tri did about half a million and a million respectively while Portable 3rd managed to rake a whopping 4 million in sales.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 13, 2013)

soulx said:


> Don't think that's the best example, Monster Hunter on consoles aren't as popular as the handheld ones, not to mention that Frontier was a MMO spinoff. Portable 3rd HD and Tri did about half a million and a million respectively while Portable 3rd managed to rake a whopping 4 million in sales.


 
I suppose you're right, but still, it is a huge franchise _(even if not that popular in the west)_ and one would expect that an exclusive like that would draw attention... and it didn't. Asia's big on MMO's y'know.


----------



## JoostinOnline (Jun 13, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> We should just stop pretending that we need SDTV support just like we shouldn't pretend that we need floppy disk drives in today's desktops. We really, really don't.
> 
> The games render beyond the standard SD spectrum of resolutions and as such they cannot be supported properly on an SDTV without downscaling the image and that's that - sometimes you have to let go of old standards and embrace the new ones.


I'm talking about supporting component. However, I believe a lot of people have more than one TV in their house, but only one which is an HDTV.  It sucks that they won't be able to move them around.

I imagine that almost everyone interested in the PS4/X1 will have HDTV's, but it still sucks having less support.


----------



## chyyran (Jun 13, 2013)

Awesome, not only does it become a brick no matter what after 15 years, but it'll become a brick anyways if you don't live in those countries


----------



## Speedster (Jun 13, 2013)

AbyssalMonkey said:


> They won't and can't, they've already locked themselves into place by opening preorders. If they stopped and "fixed" it, they would have to cancel all the preorders on the premesis of false advertising. M$ won't do that.


Yeah, ALL of those pre-orders!


----------



## trumpet-205 (Jun 13, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> I'm talking about supporting component. However, I believe a lot of people have more than one TV in their house, but only one which is an HDTV. It sucks that they won't be able to move them around.
> 
> I imagine that almost everyone interested in the PS4/X1 will have HDTV's, but it still sucks having less support.


Many modern TV no longer has component input. Those that do often share the same input with a composite input. It is rare to see a TV with more than 1 component input.

Ever since US converted to digital broadcast back in 2009 component has saw its decline use. By 2015 even the low power broadcast will goes away, at which point TV manufacturers will no longer have any reason to add analog decoder to their TV. By then TV is 100% digital only.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

JoostinOnline said:


> I'm talking about supporting component. However, I believe a lot of people have more than one TV in their house, but only one which is an HDTV. It sucks that they won't be able to move them around.
> 
> I imagine that almost everyone interested in the PS4/X1 will have HDTV's, but it still sucks having less support.


 

Exactly. The only HDTV* in my house is the 26" Vizio LCD I use as a secondary computer monitor in my bedroom, which I won from work. It's too small to even think about replacing the living room TV with it, nor would I want to give it up like that. I use it A LOT.

* = as mentioned earlier, the living room TV IS an HDTV, but it's a first gen one. It's a square CRT with component/composite/S-Video inputs, supporting a max resolution of 1080p 1080i (woops! Thanks for the correction, trumpet), although not very properly, since it's a 32" square instead of 32" wide.

Edit - I talked with my little brother about this last night, he's disappointed that his only choice of next gen console on the living room TV is the Wii U, which he doesn't want (but I do!). My parents can't in any way afford a new TV out there, lol.


----------



## trumpet-205 (Jun 13, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> Exactly. The only HDTV* in my house is the 26" Vizio LCD I use as a secondary computer monitor in my bedroom, which I won from work. It's too small to even think about replacing the living room TV with it, nor would I want to give it up like that. I use it A LOT.
> 
> * = as mentioned earlier, the living room TV IS an HDTV, but it's a first gen one. It's a square CRT with component/composite/S-Video inputs, supporting a max resolution of 1080p, although not very properly, since it's a 32" square instead of 32" wide.


You sure it supports 1080p? First gen HDTV should only support up to 1080i.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

trumpet-205 said:


> You sure it supports 1080? First gen HDTV should only support up to 1080i.


 

You know, it's been a loooong time since I've even bothered trying since the only "HD" that looks good on it is 480p, since it's not very wide.  I do believe it does only support 1080i.  Small oversight, thanks :o


----------



## SifJar (Jun 13, 2013)

Ron said:


> Awesome, not only does it become a brick no matter what after 15 years


There is no proof of that whatsoever.  Microsoft have not made any mention of what will happen when servers are eventually shut off, nor when such a thing will happen.





> but it'll become a brick anyways if you don't live in those countries


There's always VPNs and proxies, but anyway, it's not like people from those countries are forced to buy one, so it's not like they'll get one home from the shop and be like "Aw yeah, time for some Xbox...oh I can't use it, that was a waste of money". They won't be _sold_ in those countries.

On a side note, unrelated to the above quotes, some may find this interesting: http://pastebin.com/uCmdh9jB - anonymous Microsoft engineer (or so he claims, at least) talking about Xbox One. Ignoring his poor grammar etc., some very valid points. Mostly saying things I have said/tried to say in one of the older threads.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

And Microsoft thinks that by having a small list of countries to sell it in, it will succeed? And sure, no one is forced go buy one, but who here honestly wants to get one?


----------



## narutofan777 (Jun 14, 2013)

It seems unthinkable that they could forget about China? Why are there no Asian or middle eastern countries on that list? D:


---

how culd they 4get china? no asian or middle eastern countries? D:


----------



## KazoWAR (Jun 14, 2013)

I hate this console so much, BUT I NEED KILLER INSTINCT!


----------



## Nah3DS (Jun 14, 2013)

oh no  ... my country is not on the list 
/sarcasm mode off

XBOX ONE - made by americans, for americans (and a couple of others tourist attraction countries)


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 14, 2013)

...To be fair there's A LOT of shitty things you sign into and don't even know it. Hell you don't even own most of (if not any) of your video games; purely just license usage of them. You end up signing away a lot of your "rights" but you don't exactly care now.

Really this just kinda feels like rather nonchalant news brought to light more so for the Xbox One hate. Now it definitely deserves criticism, I think the console is pretty awful in a lot of respects and really steps on consumer feet, but I don't exactly think that clicking the little checkbox when you start up your Wii U or PS4 is any better.


----------



## Joe88 (Jun 14, 2013)

NahuelDS said:


> XBOX ONE - made by the chinese, for americans (and a couple of others tourist attraction countries)


fixed


----------



## Nah3DS (Jun 14, 2013)

Joe88 said:


> fixed


 
you're right!
I should have worded it: "developed by americans, for americans"

but you get the idea


----------



## Pedeadstrian (Jun 14, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> What is HD and what is proper PAL is not that different. Moreover many games are not in HD and are something lower and upscaled along the way (this especially on games the last few years as the consoles begin to show their age when used with modern development techniques). Also, as others have mentioned, this is not just "HD" TV but modern ones -- TVs have long been sold as long term investments as far as household goods go so some resistance is justifiable. I am drawn to wonder if I could stick a HDCP stripper in line and fire it into a DVI port though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it good or bad that this took me _forever_ to find the difference between the two images?


----------



## elgarta (Jun 14, 2013)

narutofan777 said:


> It seems unthinkable that they could forget about China? Why are there no Asian or middle eastern countries on that list? D:
> 
> 
> ---
> ...


 
To be fair, The Xbox 360 has a fairly small (in comparison) install base in Southeast Asia, so it isn't surprising that a launch over there is not considered a priority. Not sure what their reasoning would be for Eastern Europe, but eh.


----------



## Pedeadstrian (Jun 14, 2013)

elgarta said:


> To be fair, The Xbox 360 has a fairly small (in comparison) install base in Southeast Asia, so it isn't surprising that a launch over there is not considered a priority. Not sure what their reasoning would be for Eastern Europe, but eh.


I understand not having any big launch event or anything like that for places with small player bases, but making it impossible to even play in those countries, no matter where you got the Xbox One from? That's absurd.


----------



## nukeboy95 (Jun 14, 2013)

the only reason microsoft is doing this is to make it harder to hack (hints why china is not one the list)


----------



## NeSchn (Jun 14, 2013)

Its like they're forcing us into the future...


----------



## grossaffe (Jun 14, 2013)

NeSchn said:


> Its like they're forcing us into the future...


A dystopian future.


----------



## ferofax (Jun 14, 2013)

Microsoft seems to be avoiding piracy hotspots of the world... I mean, China, India, most of Asia. Hell, the whole of Asia. Does this mean they are scared somebody's gonna break the DRM on Xbone?


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 14, 2013)

ferofax said:


> Microsoft seems to be avoiding piracy hotspots of the world... I mean, China, India, most of Asia. Hell, the whole of Asia. Does this mean they are scared somebody's gonna break the DRM on Xbone?


Because Russia isn't a piracy hotspot. 

I think they're just focusing on countries with big XBL userbases first, maybe they'll implement the service at a later time in other countries.


----------



## cracker (Jun 14, 2013)

It's almost as if MS is trying to create the perfect shitstorm of provocation to get the XB1 hacked as quickly as possible. I think for the people that were planning on attempting to hack it this will fuel their fires to work even harder exponentially. So a big thanks to MS!

Edit: ULLLLLTTTTTRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAA sadness until then.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Jun 14, 2013)

cracker said:


> It's almost as if MS is trying to create the perfect shitstorm of provocation to get the XB1 hacked as quickly as possible. I think for the people that were planning on attempting to hack it this will fuel their fires to work even harder exponentially. So a big thanks to MS!
> 
> Edit: ULLLLLTTTTTRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAA sadness until then.


 

Yeah but you have to convince the hackers to buy it in the first place now


----------



## wartutor (Jun 14, 2013)

You're not thinking clearly....who would want to waste their time hacking something that nobody owns or cares about...you don't get a "hey good job man...I may ummm never use this" you just hear "uhhh why did you bother"...

joking aside (well only partially joking) I'm not really too into any of the two xbone or the giant crab (yeah I still haven't forgot what they did on ps3 with otheros...I've refused to buy a Sony product since...just used games at yard sells or gamestop...) just cause they say "hey we don't have drm" doesn't mean they won't add it down the road...Sony is like that...besides there both the same fps games that are the same just different levels and an occasional game in between (far in between) worth playing...maybe I'm the only one that misses the days when game developers had to be innovative and create something new and fun to play...not just slap a gun in your hand and have you run around shooting at joe smoe from god knows where and call that a hit...my wiiu was the best imo and still looks to be the best...

and what happened to playing 2 players with someone in the room...I have to sit and watch while someone else plays multiplayer or run to my house and login to play with them...least nintendo does that right


----------



## MarioFanatic64 (Jun 14, 2013)

At is point I'd choose an Apple product over an X-box. I've not purchased an X-Box before but I have played it casually with extended family.

But Microsoft has really lost its touch with consumers, logic and reality.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 14, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> Yeah but you have to convince the hackers to buy it in the first place now



Shouldn't be a problem when they sit in the bargain bin/ebay post Christmas.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

I don't like hawing no or less options. I mean, if i want to play on CRT and don't have internet, then Microsoft should make a console where I can choose what I want.

If life is about learning, then I learned that new doesn't mean better.

It's like I said, I miss simpler times '80, '90... 



wartutor said:


> You're not thinking clearly....*who would want to waste their time hacking something* that nobody owns or cares about...you don't get a "hey good job man...I may ummm never use this" you just hear "uhhh why did you bother"...


 
The one who have passion...

My thoughts on XBOX one so far 







ShadowSoldier said:


> I don't get it, what is it with these companies that won't let you sue them if something gets fucked up? It's not right.
> 
> Like, I don't understand, how are they getting away with this? There has to be some sort of law against it.


 
They are protecting themselves like polar bears. I guess it's some kind of fear... That's in human nature i guess...
But it's the most annoying thing, AP thingy and all... i'm saying it always and i will said it again. I miss simpler times...


the_randomizer said:


> Much like Steve Ballmer's manhood. This won't alienate gamers at all!
> 
> Force people to get an HDTV? $300
> Force people to get Broadband? ~$400-500/year depending on the ISP
> ...


 
At least they are leaders in something xD






Foxi4 said:


> There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's Sony Computer Entertainment.


 

..Oh and Nintendo! 
No gaming without Japan i guess


----------



## Rydian (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> ...To be fair there's A LOT of shitty things you sign into and don't even know it. Hell you don't even own most of (if not any) of your video games; purely just license usage of them. You end up signing away a lot of your "rights" but you don't exactly care now.
> 
> Really this just kinda feels like rather nonchalant news brought to light more so for the Xbox One hate. Now it definitely deserves criticism, I think the console is pretty awful in a lot of respects and really steps on consumer feet, but I don't exactly think that clicking the little checkbox when you start up your Wii U or PS4 is any better.


Waiving the class-action rights is a recent thing and with those systems deals with the service, which is optional.

Here, it's not optional.  You need to waive your rights to use the console at all.


----------



## cracker (Jun 14, 2013)

mariofanatic64 said:


> At is point I'd choose an Apple product over an X-box. I've not purchased an X-Box before but I have played it casually with extended family.
> 
> But Microsoft has really lost its touch with consumers, logic and reality.


 
Hey now don't start talking desperate... Are you going to be ok man? Do you want to talk about it?


----------



## regnad (Jun 14, 2013)

How can Japan not be on that list?!


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

regnad said:


> How can Japan not be on that list?!


 
Ahaha good question, wery good actualy!


----------



## DiabloStorm (Jun 14, 2013)

*


Rydian said:



			waiving your class-action lawsuit rights upon activation of the console
		
Click to expand...

*I found that particularly hilarious. Their target audience must be complete impulse buyers that absolutely refuse to know a single thing about what they're buying into.


----------



## SifJar (Jun 14, 2013)

DiabloStorm said:


> I found that particularly hilarious. Their target audience must be complete impulse buyers that absolutely refuse to know a single thing about what they're buying into.


 
I disagree. I know plenty about the Xbox One (pretty much as much as is publicly known, I think), and none of it has done anything to discourage me from getting one.[I probably won't, because I don't like to spend that much money on one thing, especially when I doubt I'll get proper use out of it, but I would still be very happy about it if one came into my possession]


----------



## DiabloStorm (Jun 14, 2013)

SifJar said:


> I disagree. I know plenty about the Xbox One (pretty much as much as is publicly known, I think), and none of it has done anything to discourage me from getting one.[I probably won't, because I don't like to spend that much money on one thing, especially when I doubt I'll get proper use out of it, but I would still be very happy about it if one came into my possession]


Okay, and why would you get one? You realize that your games library/console will be nothing but paperweights when they decide to discontinue their authentication servers permanently sometime in the future, right? Or are you willing to put $500 and your faith in Microsoft to do a 'final update' that removes their inane DRM? If so, that's laughable.


----------



## Chiejina (Jun 14, 2013)

I guess no one in Africa plays Games either . That rules out bringing my console with me when visiting the homeland on vacations lol.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 14, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Waiving the class-action rights is a recent thing and with those systems deals with the service, which is optional.
> 
> Here, it's not optional. You need to waive your rights to use the console at all.


 

You basically do the same thing with most any other console. The only difference is you do it when you start it up instead of clicking a little box.

I don't think that'll change any one's reluctance to buy (or not buy) a system. Oh no now I wave my rights when I start up the system not when I check a box when the system starts up!

Buying the system is optional. Don't buy it, that's a choice.


----------



## 1ManClan (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> You basically do the same thing with most any other console. The only difference is you do it when you start it up instead of clicking a little box.
> 
> I don't think that'll change any one's reluctance to buy (or not buy) a system. Oh no now I wave my rights when I start up the system not when I check a box when the system starts up!
> 
> Buying the system is optional. Don't buy it, that's a choice.


 
Let's hope car companies don't decide to start doing what Microsoft is doing. I know it's a far stretch but it has to start somewhere. No way should it be legal for a company to say you're not allowed to sue us. That is ridiculous!


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 14, 2013)

1ManClan said:


> Let's hope car companies don't decide to start doing what Microsoft is doing. I know it's a far stretch but it has to start somewhere. No way should it be legal for a company to say you're not allowed to sue us. That is ridiculous!


 

You've been signing away your rights to class action lawsuits long before the Xbox One.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> You've been signing away your rights to class action lawsuits long before the Xbox One.


 
You seems to like XBOX


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 14, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> You seems to like XBOX


 

I don't like the Xbox I'm just not so fucking hellbent on whiteknighting against it.

Like if you don't like the console don't buy it. There are people who will want the console and they will buy it. I think it has A LOT that's wrong with it, but it also has some neat features (not that they overshadow the negatives) but it's worth acknowledging what's right and what's wrong with it, not just scraping around for any little garbage we can find on it so we can go "YEAH FUCK YOU MICROSOFT!"

My point is that people don't blink twice at a skipping through a terms of services and signing it, effectively signing away a lot of their rights, but when Microsoft does it it's so goddamn evil.

EDIT: Criticize them for what they do wrong that others don't do wrong, don't criticize them singularly for what everyone does wrong.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I don't like the Xbox I'm just not so fucking hellbent on whiteknighting against it.
> 
> Like if you don't like the console don't buy it. There are people who will want the console and they will buy it. I think it has A LOT that's wrong with it, but it also has some neat features (not that they overshadow the negatives) but it's worth acknowledging what's right and what's wrong with it, not just scraping around for any little garbage we can find on it so we can go "YEAH FUCK YOU MICROSOFT!"
> 
> ...


This.


----------



## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I don't like the Xbox I'm just not so fucking hellbent on whiteknighting against it.
> 
> Like if you don't like the console don't buy it. There are people who will want the console and they will buy it. I think it has A LOT that's wrong with it, but it also has some neat features (not that they overshadow the negatives) but it's worth acknowledging what's right and what's wrong with it, not just scraping around for any little garbage we can find on it so we can go "YEAH FUCK YOU MICROSOFT!"
> 
> ...


 

I still like to have my rights in place the second I turn on my console. That checkbox is a little warning to me saying "Hey listen! You're about to waive your rights to a lot of legal action by pressing accept, this is the last chance to turn back." and you know what? That's still more consumer friendly than waiving it the moment it turns on. A lot of stuff can go wrong before turning a console on, and waiving your rights before you know what the damn thing will do is just stupid.

Offtopic:


Metoroid0 said:


> You seems to like XBOX
> 
> 
> Spoiler


By posting this image, you forced the OCD in me to know what it is from.. And I thank you for that


----------



## Gahars (Jun 14, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> You seems to like XBOX


 

I've seen this sort of attitude all over the internet and it depresses the hell out of me. People are so hellbent on mindlessly pissing on the Xbox One that if you say anything that goes against the grain (Sony's conference was far from perfect, the Xbox One is not Hitler, literally or figuratively, etc.) than you must obviously be an Xbox fanboy.

This isn't a conversation. It's a sticky, gross circlejerk.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I don't like the Xbox I'm just not so fucking hellbent on whiteknighting against it.
> 
> Like if you don't like the console don't buy it. There are people who will want the console and they will buy it. I think it has A LOT that's wrong with it, but it also has some neat features (not that they overshadow the negatives) but it's worth acknowledging what's right and what's wrong with it, not just scraping around for any little garbage we can find on it so we can go "YEAH FUCK YOU MICROSOFT!"
> 
> ...


 
Exactly my thoughts.  The One is last on my list of next-gen consoles to buy, and by a long shot.  There are a LOT of things that I do not like about it, and a lot of it has to do with how Microsoft is forcing it on everyone and how they're acting about it.  Many of the things that they're doing hardly affect me, if at all.  And on the flip side, I also agree, there are also some really nice features about it.

About the "waiving your rights" - one, I am sure you will have to agree to a ToS and/or EULA at initial boot/during setup/connecting to LIVE for the first time (since LIVE will be a required service this wouldn't be unheard of).  I doubt that you'll just automatically be forced to agree with a ToS/EULA simply by pressing the power button without being given the opportunity to see what it says.  Also, in regards to "waiving your rights", how many of you fucking people file class action lawsuits every day?  Seriously?  Yeah I realize that it's going to make it a bitch IF THERE IS something that becomes eligible for a class action lawsuit, but you guys all make it seem that you're a) never going to be able to file one again, ever; b) WILL ABSOLUTELY NEED TO file one against Microsoft; c) FILE THEM SO OFTEN that the thought of being barred from doing so is absurd.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 14, 2013)

AbyssalMonkey said:


> I still like to have my rights in place the second I turn on my console. That checkbox is a little warning to me saying "Hey listen! You're about to waive your rights to a lot of legal action by pressing accept, this is the last chance to turn back." and you know what? That's still more consumer friendly than waiving it the moment it turns on. A lot of stuff can go wrong before turning a console on, and waiving your rights before you know what the damn thing will do is just stupid.


 

So it's better to willingly sign away your rights, to see that you're giving up a lot of your freedom as a consumer and go "yup I'm okay with that" instead of it being done for you anyway?

Plus you do have an option: don't buy the console.

Most of the people complaining about this wouldn't buy the console regardless so really we're just going out of our way to say this.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Jun 14, 2013)

LOL Japan isn't on the list...So are they still getting the One or is it just an oversight?

Edit:


----------



## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 14, 2013)

Subtle Demise said:


> LOL Japan isn't on the list...So are they still getting the One or is it just an oversight?


 
I remember reading that Microsoft was open to the possibility of it being released there at a later date.  But no, it will not launch there.


----------



## Subtle Demise (Jun 14, 2013)

AbyssalMonkey said:


> I remember reading that Microsoft was open to the possibility of it being released there at a later date. But no, it will not launch there.


 
Yeah I read something on here about a 2014 release or something, but still you'd think it would be on the list of approved countries...


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 14, 2013)

1ManClan said:


> Let's hope car companies don't decide to start doing what Microsoft is doing. I know it's a far stretch but it has to start somewhere. No way should it be legal for a company to say you're not allowed to sue us. That is ridiculous!



You are allowed to sue, you are just not allowed (though this gets tricky depending upon the lawyer you speak to) to join a class action lawsuit. Now depending upon your view of the legal system this may or may not be a big thing (class action lawsuits are sometimes both the easiest way to achieve recompense for a perceived wrong and at others the worst).


----------



## geodeath (Jun 14, 2013)

This console will be the fastest failure of all time. DOA. It will probably beat the jaguar and the virtual boy. If it is successful, I pity the fools. No matter how many gears of war, halos, forzas and whatever else they have up their sleeve they get out, I do not have the slightest interest in this freak of gaming and this is coming from someone with BOTH a virtual boy and a jaguar among lots of other consoles. Unless they change the rules when they see the charts following the release, I just cannot see how logical people will put up with all these limitations. It's like the apple of gaming.


----------



## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 14, 2013)

geodeath said:


> This console will be the fastest failure of all time. DOA. It will probably beat the jaguar and the virtual boy. If it is successful, I pity the fools. No matter how many gears of war, halos, forzas and whatever else they have up their sleeve they get out, I do not have the slightest interest in this freak of gaming and this is coming from someone with BOTH a virtual boy and a jaguar among lots of other consoles. Unless they change the rules when they see the charts following the release, I just cannot see how logical people will put up with all these limitations. It's like the apple of gaming.


 
I doubt it will be the fastest failure of all time.  People still want their gaming. Consoles provide the convenience of not having to assemble a couple thousand dollar computer, update it, and do all the fancy stuff just to play a game.  The console market is a market spawned for the average person who couldn't care less about all the behind the scenes effort.  All the average person wants to do is press a button, pick a game, and hit play. The XBox One will not fail, but it will not be adopted very quickly by people who do not like how restrictive it is.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Jun 14, 2013)

AbyssalMonkey said:


> [...]Consoles provide the convenience of not having to assemble a couple thousand dollar computer, update it, and do all the fancy stuff just to play a game.


 
Yeah, with consoles, you just need to pull your TV off of the wall, update it, and buy all of these fancy accessories just to play a game. So much simpler.



AbyssalMonkey said:


> [...]All the average person wants to do is press a button, pick a game, and hit play.[...]


 

Which is exactly what you do with the computer.  Since so many PC games have moved to Steam/online login authentication, no CD required!  Xbox/other consoles, however, still require the disk unless it's a GoD game.

Would you like to rebut?


----------



## Bobbyloujo (Jun 14, 2013)

I think Microsoft just committed suicide.


----------



## AbyssalMonkey (Jun 14, 2013)

Sicklyboy said:


> Yeah, with consoles, you just need to pull your TV off of the wall, update it, and buy all of these fancy accessories just to play a game. So much simpler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Plugging in a console takes all of 1 minute, and I don't know about you, but my I personally don't have a wall mounted TV and even then, because the XBox One is meant to replace your cable box, you shouldn't have to either.  Updating a console is a mere press of a button saying "confirm" which is much quicker and less work than opening up the browser and going to the manufactures website for the driver.  And where did you find the need to get "fancy accessories"? I don't know about you, but AFAIK the system works perfectly fine out of the box, and now, due to the kinect, you dont even need a microphone!

Oh, I almost forgot, games on a console work as intended.  You don't get any bugs or graphical glitches because you missed a setting or have the wrong graphics card.  *looks at Tomb Raider*


----------



## Rydian (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> You basically do the same thing with most any other console. The only difference is you do it when you start it up instead of clicking a little box.
> 
> I don't think that'll change any one's reluctance to buy (or not buy) a system. Oh no now I wave my rights when I start up the system not when I check a box when the system starts up!
> 
> Buying the system is optional. Don't buy it, that's a choice.


The waiving of rights for older systems was when you attempted to use their online networks, not just using the system to play games at all.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 14, 2013)

Rydian said:


> The waiving of rights for older systems was when you attempted to use their online networks, not just using the system to play games at all.


 

Considering online systems were like so much of the last generation, I still think the point stands.


----------



## Gahars (Jun 14, 2013)

Rydian said:


> The waiving of rights for older systems was when you attempted to use their online networks, not just using the system to play games at all.


 

To be fair, the online network and the system itself are pretty much entwined with the Xbox One. There's no real separation anymore.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

I've no doubts that this system will sell more than the Virtual Boy and may even get more global attention than the WonderSwan Color! Only time will tell.


----------



## Rydian (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Considering online systems were like so much of the last generation, I still think the point stands.


No it does not.

Older systems: You do not need to waive your rights to use the system to play any games at all.

Xbox One: You will waive your rights if you want to play any games at all.

That is a concrete difference.



Gahars said:


> To be fair, the online network and the system itself are pretty much entwined with the Xbox One. There's no real separation anymore.


*Yeah, and that's the problem.*  Separating goods and services is important because consumers have more rights with goods, whereas companies have more rights with services.  Unfortunately companies are pressing harder and harder to turn things into a service because a good is a one-time buy while a service is a constant income.

Let's say I go buy a hammer.  I take it home, the company that made it can fuck off.  I have my hammer, I can do whatever.  If I use it in a way they do not like, fuck them, I'm going to use it in that way all I want.


On the other hand let's say I rent a hammer.  I take it home, and I'm bound by the agreement with the company as long as I am renting the hammer, because I am in a service agreement with them.  If I do something they don't like, they can revoke my right to use the hammer.

Obviously buying the hammer is better for me, the consumer, than renting one, therefore I would like to preserve that ability.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

Boy, I bet Microsoft loves all the publicity that their "console" is getting, it must be make so many people hyped to get one!


Oh wait....


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I don't like the Xbox I'm just not so fucking hellbent on whiteknighting against it.
> 
> Like if you don't like the console don't buy it. There are people who will want the console and they will buy it. I think it has A LOT that's wrong with it, but it also has some neat features (not that they overshadow the negatives) but it's worth acknowledging what's right and what's wrong with it, not just scraping around for any little garbage we can find on it so we can go "YEAH FUCK YOU MICROSOFT!"
> 
> ...


 
It's like saying that building is beautiful and it has all nice things like nice decorations, murals, nice design and its state of the art building, but it has bad foundation that is made of something that is Z class, therefore, whole building is doomed to even exist in future, or maybe even in couple of days. Or It could turn into ruins in a minutes.

But I like your attitude, It's REALLY good thing not to just judge things because everyone is saying its bad, and because of features and all.. everything has its own beauty. True.
It's good thing to see what's good in things rather than just concentrate on negative and bad.

But the foundation is VERY important also!


----------



## xwatchmanx (Jun 14, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Let's say I go buy a hammer.  I take it home, the company that made it can fuck off.  I have my hammer, I can do whatever.  If I use it in a way they do not like, fuck them, I'm going to use it in that way all I want.


I totally just read this part in my head in Chris Hemsworth's voice.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

Gahars said:


> I've seen this sort of attitude all over the internet and it depresses the hell out of me. People are so hellbent on mindlessly pissing on the Xbox One that if you say anything that goes against the grain (Sony's conference was far from perfect, the Xbox One is not Hitler, literally or figuratively, etc.) than you must obviously be an Xbox fanboy.
> 
> This isn't a conversation. It's a sticky, gross circlejerk.


 
You don't know my attitude, just the letters you see..
I wanted to start a conversation and see why is he saying that. Is it because he like XBOX or he REALLY has a point.
because I also have a point. 

So..don't judge people by what they are saying because all you see are letters, and all you have is experience and thought that whenever you see someone make this kind of question you assume he has a attitude that you THINK he has. 

I meant no harm Ultimately.


Rydian said:


> Let's say I go buy a hammer. I take it home, the company that made it can fuck off. I have my hammer, I can do whatever. If I use it in a way they do not like, fuck them, I'm going to use it in that way all I want.
> 
> On the other hand let's say I rent a hammer. I take it home, and I'm bound by the agreement with the company as long as I am renting the hammer, because I am in a service agreement with them. If I do something they don't like, they can revoke my right to use the hammer.
> Obviously buying the hammer is better for me, the consumer, than renting one, therefore I would like to preserve that ability.


 
Hahah omg I love your analogies! 


Sicklyboy said:


> Yeah, with consoles, you just need to pull your TV off of the wall, update it, and buy all of these fancy accessories just to play a game. So much simpler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't agree.
I think he is right. The first thing i wanted as a kid and now is a console because computers can be complicated,
and not just in a technical way.
With a console, You just connect it to a TV put the disc and play, that's it.
I don't know how many times I said this but.. I miss simple times 



Rydian said:


> Let's say I go buy a hammer. I take it home, the company that made it can fuck off. I have my hammer, I can do whatever. If I use it in a way they do not like, fuck them, I'm going to use it in that way all I want.
> 
> On the other hand let's say I rent a hammer. I take it home, and I'm bound by the agreement with the company as long as I am renting the hammer, because I am in a service agreement with them. If I do something they don't like, they can revoke my right to use the hammer.
> Obviously buying the hammer is better for me, the consumer, than renting one, therefore I would like to preserve that ability.


 
Hahah omg I love your analogies! 


Sicklyboy said:


> Yeah, with consoles, you just need to pull your TV off of the wall, update it, and buy all of these fancy accessories just to play a game. So much simpler.
> 
> *SicklyBoy:*
> Which is exactly what you do with the computer. Since so many PC games have moved to Steam/online login authentication, no CD required! Xbox/other consoles, however, still require the disk unless it's a GoD game.
> ...


I don't agree. 
I think he is right. The first thing i wanted as a kid and now is a console because computers can be complicated,
and not just in a technical way.

With a console, You just connect it to a TV put the disc and play, that's it.
 i dont know how manny times i said this but.. I miss simple times


----------



## Subtle Demise (Jun 14, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> I totally just read this part in my head in Chris Hemsworth's voice.


 
I was thinking Hank Hill personally. "Alright forget it, let's just say I want a hammer. You know what a hammer is? That's what I want! A DAMNED HAMMER!"


----------



## eyecat14 (Jun 14, 2013)

I can't WAIT to buy one! see microsoft crash and burn.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

eyecat14 said:


> I can't WAIT to buy one! see microsoft crash and burn.


 
Maybe it turns out to be a good console after all, who knows


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Maybe it turns out to be a good console after all, who knows


 
I'll believe it when I see it


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> I'll believe it when I see it


 
I will never see it haha 
To expensive for me to just do what i do on Wii, 3DS, PS3 etc... 

Ah, I realllllly don't like internet thing and the big brother thing


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> I will never see it haha
> To expensive for me to just do what i do on Wii, 3DS, PS3 etc...
> 
> Ah, I realllllly don't like internet thing and the big brother thing


 
Glad I have a Wii U instead. I can actually play games even if my internet goes down (which happens a lot since my ISP is pretty crappy, as is the network). Heheheheheh 

I find it a good way to tell Big Brother to screw off


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 14, 2013)

eyecat14 said:


> I can't WAIT to buy one! see microsoft crash and burn.


 

Enjoying your Windows computer then?


----------



## eyecat14 (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Enjoying your Windows computer then?


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Enjoying your Windows computer then?


 
I personally like Linux better due to its stability and for helping me with learning how to program. Plus it's free. Linux > Mac OS (even though they're both Unix-based or Unix-like...I think).


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

It's interesting to see different opinions about XBOX  

For now, I want to buy WiiU, Nintendo kinda attracts me more


----------



## Deferet (Jun 14, 2013)

I don't understand why Microsoft needs to put so many rules on their new console.  I kinda feel like I'm not going to be buying a console but more like renting it, and just paying it all upfront.  It's not really mine since I can't really do anything without Microsoft's ok.  And then there's the comment on "We have a product for people who can't access the Internet, It's called Xbox 360."  Well, got my Wiiu and will buy a PS4, but I will not buy an Xbox1 until I can fully hack it and spit in Microsoft's eye


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

Deferet said:


> I don't understand why Microsoft needs to put so many rules on their new console. I kinda feel like I'm not going to be buying a console but more like renting it, and just paying it all upfront. It's not really mine since I can't really do anything without Microsoft's ok. _*And then there's the comment on "We have a product for people who can't access the Internet, It's called Xbox 360."*_ Well, got my Wiiu and will buy a PS4, but I will not buy an Xbox1 until I can fully hack it and spit in Microsoft's eye


 
Really, I didn't know that.. the actually said that??


----------



## Deferet (Jun 14, 2013)

They did...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...cant-access-the-internet-its-called-xbox-360/


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Really, I didn't know that.. the actually said that??


 
Unfortunately, it wasn't a joke



Edit: Ninja'd


----------



## Jax (Jun 14, 2013)

And that was the moment I lost the tiny shred of respect I still had for Microsoft...


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

Jax said:


> And that was the moment I lost the tiny shred of respect I still had for Microsoft...


 
If it makes you feel any better, I never had respect for them in the first place.


----------



## tbgtbg (Jun 14, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> I looked into it real quick, and yeah, PS4 only supports HD as well, so anybody with a CRT best be looking at getting a new TV or consider a Wii U as their next gen choice.



There are CRT's with HDMI ports. They're not super common (most have DVI if any digital inputs at all), but they exist. I have one.

Still sucks they (both) aren't supporting at least component. Too hard to lock down with DRM, I guess.


----------



## Nah3DS (Jun 14, 2013)

NahuelDS said:


> XBOX ONE - made by the chinese, for americans (and a couple of others tourist attraction countries)





Joe88 said:


> fixed


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 14, 2013)

tbgtbg said:


> There are CRT's with HDMI ports. They're not super common (most have DVI if any digital inputs at all), but they exist. I have one.
> 
> Still sucks they (both) aren't supporting at least component. Too hard to lock down with DRM, I guess.


 

My brother has a CRT with HDMI inputs, it's one of those 27" Sony Wega or whatever they're called.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> I looked into it real quick, and yeah, PS4 only supports HD as well, so anybody with a CRT best be looking at getting a new TV or consider a Wii U as their next gen choice.


 
Well WiiU is more like last gen console, it can compare to PS3 and 360 more than with PS4 and ONE imo...


----------



## xwatchmanx (Jun 14, 2013)

Metoroid0 said:


> Well WiiU is more like last gen console, it can compare to PS3 and 360 more than with PS4 and ONE imo...


And here we go again.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 14, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> And here we go again.


 
About what?
It's the first time I said this  I really think so, I never saw WiiU as PS4's rival... same as I newer saw Wii as PS3 rival, even though they launched at the same time.

EDIT: And by the way, i was replying to the wrong post. fixed it


----------



## Master X (Jun 15, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> And here we go again.


 
He has a point, technically.

Just looking at the hardware inside it, its crap.

WiiU has a Tricore (3-Core) 1.24 GHZ processor - The XBone and PS4 are both using Octocore (8-Core) processors. The XBone's rating for it isn't out, but the PS4's processor is clocked at 1.6 GHZ, more than the Wii U's.

The Wii U has 2 GB of DDR3 ram. The XBone and PS4 both have 8 GB ram (XBone DDR3, PS4 DDR5)

The Wii U's graphics card is a 320 shader, 550 MHZ, .35 Tflop video card. PS4/XBone uses a 1152/768 shader, 800 MHZ, and 1.84/1.23 Tflop card.

While the Wii U is a vast improvement on the Wii, it's hardware is pretty much shit compared to what the PS4 and XBone are packing. It's a 8th gen console, but that doesn't change the fact that it's using hardware that was available half a decade ago.


----------



## Aeter (Jun 15, 2013)

Who needs Asia, Africa and corrupt Europe anyway?


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 15, 2013)

Master X said:


> He has a point, technically.
> 
> Just looking at the hardware inside it, its crap.
> 
> ...


 

Nice stats you're using, and without any sources to cite. Most impressive! That right there makes you qualified for the gold medal!

Hey, did you know that more MHz doesn't mean more power, and the higher clock speed argument has been irrelevant for years? Sure, it's all well and good that a CPU has eight cores, but doesn't mean damn thing if all of them aren't going to be used. 2 GB of RAM versus 8 GB can only go so far when the Wii U's RAM is interleaved; that right there means the RAM is used in parallel fashion, meaning faster memory access, but who am I kidding, you're probably the Valedictorian of your computer science class.

So in essence, the Wii U being weaker than the Xbox Next or PS4 automatically constitutes said console as being an instant failure. I just love straw man argument, the hilarity they bring help everyone one of us make it through the hard moments of life such as unemployment and raising a family. No, no, you're absolutely right, Wii U has weaker hardware, and is doomed to fail, I mean after all, your argument is valid and cannot be refuted with logic. Nope, not at all.

The CPU has GPGPU and OOE, but you probably don't know what those are.

Let's see, to sum your argument up

Wii U has a CPU on-par with the Xbox 360 CPU
Wii U has a worse GPU than the other two consoles
Wii U uses older hardware
Wii U GPU has 320 shaders, 550 MHz core and the PS4/Xbox One uses at least twice that

Right, I'll be sure to remember that when playing Need For Speed Most Wanted, Batman Arkham Origins, Pikmin 3, Legend of Zelda Wind Waker HD, Mario Kart 8, Super Smash Bros and Donkey Kong Country. I'll be sure to think of your kind, warming thoughts on how inferior hardware means crappy games. No really, they'll help me in choosing quantity over quality, seeing as quality is overrated.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Jun 15, 2013)

Master X said:


> He has a point, technically.
> 
> Just looking at the hardware inside it, its crap.
> 
> ...


Yes, but it's still quite a bit more powerful than the PS3 and 360, as analysis and the majority of developers speaking out on the issue have shown multiple times. This whole "Wii U is old gen, hurrhurr!" is getting old.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 15, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Yes, but it's still quite a bit more powerful than the PS3 and 360, as analysis and the majority of developers speaking out on the issue have shown multiple times. This whole "Wii U is old gen, hurrhurr!" is getting old.


 

The words of numerous developers over the words of a hatemonger who can't cite any reputable sources.....decisions, decisions....man, they're so hard to take. I think.....yeah, gonna side with the developers, but it's pretty hard to make that choice.


----------



## Katsumi San (Jun 15, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Nice stats you're using, and without any sources to cite. Most impressive! That right there makes you qualified for the gold medal!
> 
> Hey, did you know that more MHz doesn't mean more power, and the higher clock speed argument has been irrelevant for years? Sure, it's all well and good that a CPU has eight cores, but doesn't mean damn thing if all of them aren't going to be used. 2 GB of RAM versus 8 GB can only go so far when the Wii U's RAM is interleaved; that right there means the RAM is used in parallel fashion, meaning faster memory access, but who am I kidding, you're probably the Valedictorian of your computer science class.
> 
> ...


I like this very much.

To add I understand "more power" in consoles is define next gen or not now days. This is not the case. No matter how inferior a console is compared to others... it still is next gen depending on the time frame release. For example.. NGC/PS2/XBox: Wii/PS3/360: WiiU/PS4/XBone. That is the reality if you do not like it.

Perhaps I am wrong on match up list there but is something like that.

tl;dr power of console does not influence generation for shit. even this "true" next gen BS.

I am sincerely sorry for rudeness.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 15, 2013)

Katsumi San said:


> I like this very much.
> 
> To add I understand "more power" in consoles is define next gen or not now days. This is not the case. No matter how inferior a console is compared to others... it still is next gen depending on the time frame release. For example.. NGC/PS2/XBox: Wii/PS3/360: WiiU/PS4/XBone. That is the reality if you do not like it.
> 
> ...


 

You weren't being rude, no worries. The person I quoted, however, was being one blinded by hate for some reason. You're right, while power is vital, it's only vital to an extent, where does one draw the line? When does power become more important the games themselves? Why do people forever insist on having one-sided arguments about what console is better? Can't people just play the games they want on the system they want without childish arguing?


----------



## Master X (Jun 15, 2013)

the_randomizer said:


> Nice stats you're using, and without any sources to cite. Most impressive! That right there makes you qualified for the gold medal!
> 
> Hey, did you know that more MHz doesn't mean more power, and the higher clock speed argument has been irrelevant for years? Sure, it's all well and good that a CPU has eight cores, but doesn't mean damn thing if all of them aren't going to be used. 2 GB of RAM versus 8 GB can only go so far when the Wii U's RAM is interleaved; that right there means the RAM is used in parallel fashion, meaning faster memory access, but who am I kidding, you're probably the Valedictorian of your computer science class.
> 
> ...


 
All of this is commonly available knowledge that the companies have released. Given that you have taken the time to my comment about the consoles hardware I assumed that you had already been aware of this knowledge - My mistake.

GPGPU is basically where the gpu handles calculations that are usually preformed by the cpu. Not the best explaination for it that I know, but it's simple enough to answer your question. I'll concede on OOE though since I've forgotten what it means.

Anyway, although the Wii U has 2 GB of ram, only 1 is avaliable for games. And, of course, not to mention that it's of a much lower speed than the PS4's. Even with interleaving, their is still only so much that can be done with that small amount of memory.

That said, nice going making stuff up. No where did I say the Wii U was a failure or that it was doomed to fail. I said the hardware is crap yeah, but not that the Wii U will fail.

Before you comment on any more of my, or other people's, posts might I recommend that you get some glasses? Personally, I'm concerned about you seeing things - You really should get that issue resolved before you hurt yourself.



xwatchmanx said:


> Yes, but it's still quite a bit more powerful than the PS3 and 360, as analysis and the majority of developers speaking out on the issue have shown multiple times. This whole "Wii U is old gen, hurrhurr!" is getting old.


 
Same as above - Get some glasses. Nowhere did I say the the Wii U was a last gen console. If you look closely enough, you'll see that I stated that it was a 8th gen console.

Me, blinded by hate? Ha. I was comparing hardware on two systems and stating that the Wii U uses older hardware than the other 8th gen consoles. Thats not hate - Thats truth.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 15, 2013)

Master X said:


> All of this is commonly available knowledge that the companies have released. Given that you have taken the time to my comment about the consoles hardware I assumed that you had already been aware of this knowledge - My mistake for assuming that you would bother to do a simple google search for a hardware comparison.
> 
> GPGPU is basically where the gpu handles calculations that are usually preformed by the cpu. Not the best explaination for it that I know, but it's simple enough to answer your question. I'll concede on OOE though since I've forgotten what it means.
> 
> ...


 

I'm sorry, I seemed to have forgotten the part where I was supposed to believe such self-indulgent, not to mention troglodytic tripe. Making stuff up? Like OOE and GPGPU? Pretty sure that was confirmed, but I could be wrong because after all, I need glasses, amirite?  The hardware is crap? So, that means that the games are crap compared to the godlike PS4 and Xbox One you so choose to worship.  Ever heard of GPGPU or General Purpose Graphics Processing Unit? I'd recommend looking it up. 

CPU architecture is more vital than clock speed per core, any CS major will tell you that. 
http://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/451748-why-wii-us-124-ghz-processor-isnt-worth-freaking-out-about/


----------



## xwatchmanx (Jun 15, 2013)

Master X said:


> Same as above - Get some glasses. Nowhere did I say the the Wii U was a last gen console. If you look closely enough, you'll see that I stated that it was a 8th gen console.


Perhaps you should follow your own advice. Never did I claim that you called the Wii U a last gen console. The original person I responded to implied that, and I was clarifying what I meant to you since you responded to me about the outdated tech and stuff, which isn't what I was taking issue with at all.


----------



## Master X (Jun 15, 2013)

Again, you need glasses. Nowhere did I state you were making things up about GPGPU and OOE. If you bothered the read my post instead of taking a cursory glance at it, you'd have seen that the making stuff up was about you saying that I said the Wii U was a failure.

And great - But that article is more then a half year old. Show me something that says the Wii U's processor has just as much power as the processors that will be in the XBone and PS4. Because that was what i was getting at - That the Wii U's processor is very weak in comparison to what they will be using.

Also, about how effective the Wiiu's processor is in comparison to the 360's and PS3's? I'll direct you to comment #2 on that article.



> Disappointingly, this appears to be a case where Ars went a little too far defending the WiiU's processor. Yes, it is an OoOE design, but by modern standards it is an extremely rudimentary implementation based on the PowerPC 750 from the late 90s (the same one branded as G3 by Apple). Granted, at the same clock speed the "Espresso" CPU in the WiiU would execute non-vector code faster, but the efficiencies added by the OoOE design are not nearly enough to make up the deficit against processors in the PS3 and 360 that run at nearly 3 times the clock speed, have SMT adding to their efficiency, and which possess vastly more powerful floating point capabilities (like literally, 5-10 times the GFLOPs), not to mention 7 years of institutional knowledge of best practices for avoiding the weaknesses of the in order CPUs used by competing systems.


 
Also, read my post - I have heard of GPGPU.

So... About those glasses...

Edit - I misunderstood that, assumed your old gen comment was about what generation of console it was. My apologizes.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 15, 2013)

Master X said:


> Again, you need glasses. Nowhere did I state you were making things up about GPGPU and OOE. If you bothered the read my post instead of taking a cursory glance at it, you'd have seen that the making stuff up was about you saying that I said the Wii U was a failure.
> 
> And great - But that article is more then a half year old. Show me something that says the Wii U's processor has just as much power as the processors that will be in the XBone and PS4. Because that was what i was getting at - That the Wii U's processor is very weak in comparison to what they will be using.
> 
> ...


 


Oh, GLASSES! I thought you said jackasses.

Sure thing, lemme see if I can find a pair of those.....your post gave killed my brain cells.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...several_generations_ahead_of_current_consoles


----------



## Master X (Jun 15, 2013)

With comments like those, you have the gall you call me blinded by hate?

I'm shocked, really.

Might I also recommend a mirror?


----------



## the_randomizer (Jun 15, 2013)

Master X said:


> With comments like those, you have the gall you call me blinded by hate?
> 
> I'm shocked, really.
> 
> Might I also recommend a mirror?


 

If you're shocked, then you should probably stop reading my electrifying comments


----------



## xwatchmanx (Jun 15, 2013)

Master X said:


> I misunderstood that, assumed your old gen comment was about what generation of console it was. My apologizes.


No worries. It happens to the best of us, 20:20 vision, or otherwise.


----------



## codezer0 (Jun 15, 2013)

Nathan Drake said:


> I feel like Microsoft is trying to make this the worst console in history just to see if they can still actually sell it.


So basically pulling a Jaguar? 



Nathan Drake said:


> On a related note, what word is there on the PS4 supporting standard definition picture? Looking at the back of the system in pictures, I don't exactly see a place for anything but HDMI to plug in, but I may have been looking at one of the ports wrong.


Even if it _does_ support the A/V MultiOut that has been a staple of PlayStations since they removed the industry-standard ports on original-run PS1's, there's no guarantee it'd actually _support_ a standard-def signal.


----------



## DiabloStorm (Jun 15, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> whiteknighting





Guild McCommunist said:


> against it.


Choose one.
I think the point here is microsoft is already pushing their luck with an already unfavorable bunch of "features."
It would seem they're not only pushing to attack the used game market and impose incredibly restrictive DRM overall but also for you to waive your rights. Why shouldn't people complain about shit they don't like? That's like puke on a pile of shit.
What if this whole 'waive your rights to class action lawsuit' thing started becoming more wide-spread to other things because people never said anything? I don't think you'll start singing "don't buy it" when worse comes to worse and it starts applying to things like food. Don't like gmo or non regulated food etc? Durr, don't buy it. Hey, if it's cheap enough it might just become common place and _unavoidable,_ since nobody spoke up.

So, you're in favor of less rights and more restrictions? Ok. Financially I'm not even in the market of home gaming consoles, they don't really interest me but if I ever decided to buy one again in the future I'd rather not have it burdened with all the shit xbone is imposing.



Rydian said:


> No it does not.
> 
> Older systems: You do not need to waive your rights to use the system to play any games at all.
> 
> ...


 
 Lmfao, that was good, dude. Epic example


----------



## Bladexdsl (Jun 15, 2013)

you're pretty much renting the console and the games you never really own them


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 15, 2013)

xwatchmanx said:


> Yes, but it's still quite a bit more powerful than the PS3 and 360, as analysis and the majority of developers speaking out on the issue have shown multiple times. This whole "Wii U is old gen, hurrhurr!" is getting old.


 
Heh sorryyy  , I was just saying how I see it, no need for discussion, but that's just natural I guess so 

It's kinda obvious to me even if I didn't know tech specs of WiiU and PS4/XBOX one, it's obvious that WiiU kinda fall behind, but it's new generation just because it came out at the same time as PS4/XBOX one.

I mean if you think about it and look into the past, You will see that that's Nintendo's tradition kinda...

But to stick with newer consoles...
You can't really say that with previous generations that Wii is the rival of PS3/360, can you?



Katsumi San said:


> I like this very much.
> 
> To add I understand "more power" in consoles is define next gen or not now days. This is not the case. No matter how inferior a console is compared to others... it still is next gen depending on the time frame release. For example.. NGC/PS2/XBox: Wii/PS3/360: WiiU/PS4/XBone. That is the reality if you do not like it.
> 
> ...


 
Haha NO, why sorry, it's OK.
You're not rude, you are just speaking how you see it 

Hm, GameCube WAS more powerful than PS2 as i remember.

And for that new generation thing..i think you're right!

Look what i found just now on Wikipedia:
_*Generation* (from the Latin generāre, meaning "__to beget__"), _
_also known as biogenesis, reproduction, or procreation in biological sciences,_
_is the act of producing offspring. In kinship terminology,_
_it is a structural term designating the parent-child relationship._

So as I understood, even though WiiU & PS4/XBOXone or Wii & PS4/360 has nothing in common on technical side, and Nintendo is falling behind then in that field, it still IS a NEW generation console.
Because the word *generation* itself means _"__the act of producing offspring__"_ so it has nothing to do with comparison.



xwatchmanx said:


> This whole "Wii U is old gen, hurrhurr!" is getting old.


 
Well sorry, but that's how it is, if it wasn't me, than someone else could bring that up..
but if you don't like what I said, that doesn't mean it's generally boring.

But as I said, sorry if it's boring.


----------



## SifJar (Jun 15, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Obviously buying the hammer is better for me, the consumer, than renting one, therefore I would like to preserve that ability.


Not necessarily. Let's say the hammer costs £10 (or $10 or whatever). Renting it for a week costs £3/$3. I only need it for one job, and I don't intend to use it for anything outside of the "acceptable use" policy anyway (I only want to stick a few nails in the wall to hang some pictures, which is fine by the rental company). I've saved £7, and most people would agree, saving money is good for the consumer.

As a (more realistic) example, I subscribe to Netflix. Now I generally watch at least a season or two of TV shows, and maybe a film or two each month. Not excessive usage, but if I were buying those things on DVD, it could cost about £15+ for each season of the TV shows and perhaps £5-£10 for each film. Total content of perhaps £30-£40 a month. As it is, I pay £6 a month. I'm unlikely to watch the content again, so I lose absolutely nothing by not owning the physical DVDs. Instead, I save about £24-£34 *a month *over what I might otherwise spend.

Just because you have less rights with a service, doesn't mean it's worse. Most of the "rights" you have with goods, many people will probably never _really_ use anyway.


----------



## Metoroid0 (Jun 15, 2013)

SifJar said:


> Not necessarily. Let's say the hammer costs £10 (or $10 or whatever). Renting it for a week costs £3/$3. I only need it for one job, and I don't intend to use it for anything outside of the "acceptable use" policy anyway (I only want to stick a few nails in the wall to hang some pictures, which is fine by the rental company). I've saved £7, and most people would agree, saving money is good for the consumer.
> 
> As a (more realistic) example, I subscribe to Netflix. Now I generally watch at least a season or two of TV shows, and maybe a film or two each month. Not excessive usage, but if I were buying those things on DVD, it could cost about £15+ for each season of the TV shows and perhaps £5-£10 for each film. Total content of perhaps £30-£40 a month. As it is, I pay £6 a month. I'm unlikely to watch the content again, so I lose absolutely nothing by not owning the physical DVDs. Instead, I save about £24-£34 *a month *over what I might otherwise spend.
> 
> Just because you have less rights with a service, doesn't mean it's worse. Most of the "rights" you have with goods, many people will probably never _really_ use anyway.


 
IMO, It's not about finding logic, but what people want and giving them option.
But if it's ultimatum then bye bye Microsoft.

It's like "if you don't like it then don't buy it or buy XBOX360" sincerely, your Microsoft..." oh wow, thank you for your NEW console Microsoft.

But, as far as I'm concerned, I can live life without XBOXone.
They can do whatever they want, it's theirs, but ultimately people are the ones that are giving them their money.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Jun 15, 2013)

Bladexdsl said:


> you're pretty much renting the console and the games you never really own them


 

You never "own" any of your games, you only "own" a license to use them.

Also can someone please give me the source with the EXACT used game policy that the Xbox One has? There's been a lot of confusion in this department and now for some reason everyone's saying it flatout blocks used games.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 15, 2013)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Also can someone please give me the source with the EXACT used game policy that the Xbox One has? There's been a lot of confusion in this department and now for some reason everyone's saying it flatout blocks used games.



I thought that one was already cleared up, not favourably to anybody that enjoys the standard model of computer game sales (I am hesitant to use terms like rights but I will anyway) but cleared up none the less
http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license


			
				http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/license said:
			
		

> Trade-in and resell your disc-based games: Today, some gamers choose to sell their old disc-based games back for cash and credit. We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers.  Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games.
> 
> Give your games to friends: Xbox One is designed so game publishers can enable you to give your disc-based games to your friends. There are no fees charged as part of these transfers. There are two requirements: you can only give them to people who have been on your friends list for at least 30 days and each game can only be given once.


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## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Trade-in and resell your disc-based games: Today, some gamers choose to sell their old disc-based games back for cash and credit. We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers. Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games.
> 
> Give your games to friends: Xbox One is designed so game publishers can enable you to give your disc-based games to your friends. There are no fees charged as part of these transfers. There are two requirements: you can only give them to people who have been on your friends list for at least 30 days and each game can only be given once.


So basically users won't be able to re-sell, give or trade games, _unless_ the publisher allows it. As opposed to PS4, where the users will be able to re-sell, give or trade games, _if_ the publisher allows it. Major difference. 


Penny Arcade's Tycho had this to say on the subject: 


> I’ve seen it mentioned in a few places that one of Microsoft’s main problems at E3 was “messaging.”  That’s always been one of their main problems, that’s not new, and it’s exacerbated because they’re always trying to do shit that requires super tight message. [...] They’ve never been able to explain themselves, and part of it is an engineer culture that doesn’t (marketing term incoming) “face” consumers and, I would suspect, resents being made to explain why something which is so manifestly efficient and purposeful would need to be.  Contrast this with Sony, which is almost completely a brand exercise and for whom the tone and texture of a message is the primary product.


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## SifJar (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> So basically users won't be able to re-sell, give or trade games, _unless_ the publisher allows it. As opposed to PS4, where the users will be able to re-sell, give or trade games, _if_ the publisher allows it. Major difference.


Not really, only real difference is first party games. Each publisher will choose their stance, and apply it to both platforms.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> So basically users won't be able to re-sell, give or trade games, _unless_ the publisher allows it. As opposed to PS4, where the users will be able to re-sell, give or trade games, _if_ the publisher allows it. Major difference.
> 
> Penny Arcade's Tycho had this to say on the subject:
> 
> ...



No argument that Sony has placed style over substance on many occasions but I would love to see MS spin this properly. Hell I would even go so far as to say what MS attempted to do would have been amazing had they not tried to screw us (publishers being able to decide and restrictions on resale count as that). I would not be surprised in the slightest to see publishers vetoing the proposals to do it properly but I guess that is a slightly different discussion.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

SifJar said:


> Not really, only real difference is first party games. Each publisher will choose their stance, and apply it to both platforms.


 
Not true. XBox One has an _organized infrastructure_ where the publishers and select store chains _(inb4monopoly) _decide the prices of used games - on the PS4 the price of used games is regulated by the market itself - by supply and demand. _Huge _difference.

The only thing Sony specified is that they will not restrict publishers if they _want_ to include DRM in their titles because at the end of the day _"It's the customer who makes the choice/votes with his/her wallet"_.


----------



## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Hell I would even go so far as to say what MS attempted to do would have been amazing had they not tried to screw us (publishers being able to decide and restrictions on resale count as that).


The PS4 lets publishers restrict resales as well (online passes, required registration, etc.). Sony only said they wouldn't enforce any restrictions themselves, but the publishers still have that discretion. On the other hand, the Xbone will enforce resale restrictions _if the publishers demand it_ - they are free to allow unrestricted resales. As SifJar said, publishers will take a stance on the matter, and I don't think any of them will allow resales on the PS4 but restrict them on the Xbone.


----------



## FAST6191 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> The PS4 lets publishers restrict resales as well (online passes, required registration, etc.). Sony only said they wouldn't enforce any restrictions themselves, but the publishers still have that discretion. On the other hand, the Xbone will enforce resale restrictions _if the publishers demand it_ - they are free to allow unrestricted resales. As SifJar said, publishers will take a stance on the matter, and I don't think any of them will allow resales on the PS4 but restrict them on the Xbone.



I shall have to read up more on the PS4. As distasteful as I find online passes it seems fairly legit as far an end run around things goes. The required registration thing would be a step (or nine) too far for my taste though.


----------



## Rydian (Jun 15, 2013)

SifJar said:


> Not necessarily. Let's say the hammer costs £10 (or $10 or whatever). Renting it for a week costs £3/$3. I only need it for one job, and I don't intend to use it for anything outside of the "acceptable use" policy anyway (I only want to stick a few nails in the wall to hang some pictures, which is fine by the rental company). I've saved £7, and most people would agree, saving money is good for the consumer.
> 
> As a (more realistic) example, I subscribe to Netflix. Now I generally watch at least a season or two of TV shows, and maybe a film or two each month. Not excessive usage, but if I were buying those things on DVD, it could cost about £15+ for each season of the TV shows and perhaps £5-£10 for each film. Total content of perhaps £30-£40 a month. As it is, I pay £6 a month. I'm unlikely to watch the content again, so I lose absolutely nothing by not owning the physical DVDs. Instead, I save about £24-£34 *a month *over what I might otherwise spend.
> 
> Just because you have less rights with a service, doesn't mean it's worse. Most of the "rights" you have with goods, many people will probably never _really_ use anyway.


TV then?

EDIT: It's also really annoying how I can't fucking metaphor around here unless I choose like a 98% duplicate. :\


----------



## SifJar (Jun 15, 2013)

Rydian said:


> TV then?
> 
> EDIT: It's also really annoying how I can't fucking metaphor around here unless I choose like a 98% duplicate. :\


 
I'm not really sure what you mean by "TV then?" - do you mean I should watch stuff on TV rather than Netflix/DVD? Because I do try to do that where possible, but many of the decent shows I want to watch are exclusive to paid subscription packages here, which are invariably about 5 times the price of Netflix. Plus that doesn't cover on demand content that isn't broadcast any more. When something decent is on Freeview (the free digital TV service in the UK), I make sure to watch/record it where possible.

And I have noticed a lot of your metaphors seem to be about hammers


----------



## Rydian (Jun 15, 2013)

SifJar said:


> I'm not really sure what you mean by "TV then?" - do you mean I should watch stuff on TV rather than Netflix/DVD? Because I do try to do that where possible, but many of the decent shows I want to watch are exclusive to paid subscription packages here, which are invariably about 5 times the price of Netflix. Plus that doesn't cover on demand content that isn't broadcast any more. When something decent is on Freeview (the free digital TV service in the UK), I make sure to watch/record it where possible.


I meant think about it in terms of a TV instead of a hammer, since that's closer in the regard that people want to have a TV for a long time.



SifJar said:


> And I have noticed a lot of your metaphors seem to be about hammers


I try to keep it simple so people understand the concept.

Also when I make it about sex toys AW gets mad.


----------



## SifJar (Jun 15, 2013)

Rydian said:


> I meant think about it in terms of a TV instead of a hammer, since that's closer in the regard that people want to have a TV for a long time.


Ah OK. That makes more sense.


----------



## fluffykiwi (Jun 15, 2013)

AbyssalMonkey said:


> they said 500 billion bytes = 465.7 GB which i believe is within normal formatting loss. I think they are just disclaiming this to save their own asses some trouble.


 
They actually say the Xbox One system software uses a significant amount of storage; less internal storage will be available to users.
I read that as the system software takes up a significant amount of the 500 Gb. I believe the formatting loss is a separate unavoidable issue. I just wonder how much is classed as significant. BUT you are not getting 465.7 GB.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Let's say I go buy a hammer. I take it home, the company that made it can fuck off. I have my hammer, I can do whatever. If I use it in a way they do not like, fuck them, I'm going to use it in that way all I want.


 
...am I entitled to sue if the hammer's performance is unsatifactory or when it does something to spite me? I want to have the right to sue if my hammer smacks me on my thumb... _(Naturally the smacking is a result of faulty engineering, not my inability to use hammers in a safe fashion) _


----------



## Wintrale (Jun 15, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Not true. XBox One has an _organized infrastructure_ where the publishers and select store chains _(inb4monopoly) _decide the prices of used games - on the PS4 the price of used games is regulated by the market itself - by supply and demand. _Huge _difference.
> 
> The only thing Sony specified is that they will not restrict publishers if they _want_ to include DRM in their titles because at the end of the day _"It's the customer who makes the choice/voices with his/her wallet"_.


 
Which will lead to an ecosystem where preowned games are a lot cheaper on the PS4 since there are no added fees or restrictions.


----------



## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

Wintrale said:


> Which will lead to an ecosystem where preowned games are a lot cheaper on the PS4 since there are no added fees or restrictions.


...other than those set by the publisher.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> ...other than those set by the publisher.


 
The publisher has no say in the matter - the only DRM they can introduce on the PS4 is the DRM in the software itself _(Online passes, serial codes and whatnot)_, with the XBox One the DRM is an integral part of the system.


----------



## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> The publisher has no say in the matter - the only DRM they can introduce on the PS4 is the DRM in the software itself _(Online passes, serial codes and whatnot)_


 Meaning the publisher can choose to enforce it. 



> with the XBox One the DRM is an integral part of the system.


But the publisher can choose to forego it. 

So ultimately the publisher decides whether they will implement (or take advantage of) DRM on either console.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> Meaning the publisher can choose to enforce it.


On the PS4, the publisher can choose to enforce Online passes or serial codes, but still cannot influence the used games market or fix prices, which was the underlying theme of this discussion.



> But the publisher can choose to forego it.


False. Used XBox One games will only be available at select retailers, which is already tampering with the market. Moreover, they _have_ to set the price for their used games because that's how the system works.



> So ultimately the publisher decides whether they will implement (or take advantage of) DRM on either console.


 
Not true, the used games policy is imposed on the publishers as much as it is on the users.


----------



## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> On the PS4, the publisher can choose to enforce Online passes or serial codes, but still cannot influence the used games market or fix prices, which was the underlying theme of this discussion.


If they set the prices of the serial codes, they fix prices. 



> False. Used XBox One games will only be available at select retailers, which is already tampering with the game.


That's only for trade-ins. 



> Moreover, they _have_ to set the price for their used games because that's how the system works.


Here's the official quote: 



> Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games. [...] Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers.  Microsoft does not receive any compensation as part of this. In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends.


Terms of game resales (including fees) are up to the publisher.


----------



## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> If they set the prices of the serial codes, they fix prices.


They can choose to do so to their own peril, sure.


> That's only for trade-ins.


You can't trade in your games in any other way - the disc itself is not resellable as long as it's registered on your Live account.


> Here's the official quote:


They can opt in or out of supporting game resale, which means that they can allow their games to be sold used... or not, making them non-tradable entirely. Giving the games to friends as a gift is an alluring prospect, but unfortunately it in no way allows the _sale_ of used games.


> Terms of game resales (including fees) are up to the publisher.


 
Wheras they should be up to the retailers.


----------



## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> They can choose to do so to their own peril, sure.


Exactly. Now tell me, why would they choose to do it on the Xbone if they know it's detrimental to their profits? 



> You can't trade in your games in any other way - the disc itself is not resellable as long as it's registered on your Live account.


Are you sure? Does it say that in the licensing details? The same way you can give a game to a friend, where the game becomes registered to a new Live account, a game could be resold, only this time a set resale fee would go to the publisher (if the publisher decides to demand a fee). 



> They can opt in or out of supporting game resale, which means that they can allow their games to be sold used... or not, making them non-tradable entirely.


Exactly, they can allow them to be sold used. 



> Giving the games to friends as a gift is an alluring prospect, but unfortunately it in no way allows the _sale_ of a used game.


I am going to wait until some official clarification is offered, but for now there is nothing saying resales are forbidden, so let's wait and see. 



> Wheras they should be up to the retailers.


Or better still, retailers should be out of the picture altogether and it should be up to the buyer/seller. Why give retailers any control over it? 


The Xbone will have a DRM framework that will give publishers control over their games, but it's up to the publishers to decide how much control they will exert, if any. There is nothing _forcing_ them to ban resales or add huge fees to used games. 
With the PS4, the publisher would have to implement and maintain the DRM framework themselves, but there's nothing _preventing_ them from doing it. 
With both consoles (until they are hacked), the publishers get to decide whether to allow used game sales, and how much they will charge for each resale. It's just easier to do on the Xbone, but not _obligatory_. 
And if the publisher decides to forego DRM on the PS4 (for the sake of publicity), why would they decide to enforce it on the Xbone?


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## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> Exactly. Now tell me, why would they choose to do it on the Xbone if they know it's detrimental to their profits?


If they choose to opt out of the resale program, their games won't be resellable at all.


> Are you sure? Does it say that in the licensing details? The same way you can give a game to a friend, where the game becomes registered to a new Live account, a game could be resold, only this time a set resale fee would go to the publisher (if the publisher decides to demand a fee).


I suppose you could arrange a deal where someone pays you in advance and then you _"gift"_ the game to said person, however that opens up a world of opportunities to scammers.


> Exactly, they can allow them to be sold used.


...as long as they participate in Microsoft's resale machine and abide its regulations, yes.


> I am going to wait until some official clarification is offered, but for now there is nothing saying resales are forbidden, so let's wait and see.


What we do have are resale terms, which are less than favourable, so it'd be great if Microsoft clarified that. I'm not sure who's head of damage control there, but they're sleeping on the job.


> Or better still, retailers should be out of the picture altogether and it should be up to the buyer/seller. Why give retailers any control over it?


It's the retailers who actually sell the games, so if the game is used, they set the price point depending on supply and demand - it's always been like this... unless of course you're selling the game yourself, in which case you play the role of the _"retailer"_. 


> The Xbone will have a DRM framework that will give publishers control over their games, but it's up to the publishers to decide how much control they will exert, if any. There is nothing _forcing_ them to ban resales or add huge fees to used games.


There shouldn't be any fees for used games, period. A used piece of software was already paid for - what happens is that the license is transferred from one person to another - the publisher shouldn't get any benefits from it whatsoever because that particular copy was already sold once. If I buy a hat in a store and then choose to sell it to a hat collector, I'm not giving a percentage of my _"profit"_ to the hat's manufacturer - that's asinine.


> With the PS4, the publisher would have to implement and maintain the DRM framework themselves, but there's nothing _preventing_ them from doing it.


I never said there is anything preventing them from including DRM in their software - what I said was that it's not imposed on them.


> With both consoles (until they are hacked), the publishers get to decide whether to allow used game sales, and how much they will charge for each resale. It's just easier to do on the Xbone, but not _obligatory_.


DRM as such is not obligatory, however if the game is to be resellable, as it stands today, the publisher has to take part in Microsoft's resale infrastructure - otherwise the install disc does not get _"unregistered"_ and as such, you cannot install anything using it on a system different than the first one it was used on.


> And if the publisher decides to forego DRM on the PS4 (for the sake of publicity), why would they decide to enforce it on the Xbone?


 
...because again, the resale infrastructure is set in stone. The publisher may choose to take part in it or not, but the way the discs and the game registering work _(the discs are for installing only and are registered to the console they were first used on)_, they cannot be resold without prior unregistering... and to unregister them, you need to go through Microsoft's loops and hoops.


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## Chocolina (Jun 15, 2013)

Atleast Microsoft is committing to their douchebag policies. I was expecting them to waver much more with all the positive feedback Sony has been getting.


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## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> If they choose to opt out of the resale program, their games won't be resellable at all.


You mean if they choose to ban resales.  



> It's the retailers who actually sell the games, so if the game is used, they set the price point depending on supply and demand - it's always been like this.


It's the first owners who sell the games, and second owners who buy them, and the retailers are pointless leeches wedging themselves in the middle and skimming from the top and bottom (and sides, if possible), and inflating prices. 



> There shouldn't be any fees for used games, period. A used piece of software was already paid for - what happens is that the license is transferred from one person to another - the publisher shouldn't get any benefits from it whatsoever because that particular copy was already sold once. If I buy a hat in a store and then choose to sell it to a hat collector, I'm not giving a percentage of my _"profit"_ to the hat's manufacturer - that's asinine.


And software licences don't work like hat sales, so that point is moot. I swear I've had this conversation before somewhere. 



> I never said there is anything preventing them from including DRM in their software - what I said was that it's not imposed on them.


It's imposed on the gamers. I doubt the publishers will suffer much from it, because I doubt defining the DRM parameters (on a scale from 0 to 1984) will take that much time. I imagine there's an adjustable knob. In any case, a company spending a year on making a game won't really notice the half-hour it takes to fill out the DRM settings form. There is nothing _forcing_ them to turn the crank up to 11, it's up to them. 



> DRM as such is not obligatory, however if the game is to be resellable, as it stands today, the publisher has to take part in Microsoft's resale infrastructure - otherwise the install disc does not get _"unregistered"_ and as such, you cannot install anything using it on a system different than the first one it was used on.


And if the publisher does take part in the resale infrastructure, and sets the resale fee to zero, and we know that Microsoft won't charge licence transfer fees, then the game is resellable pretty much the same way it was on previous consoles, the difference being that you have to register it once you buy it. 




> ...because again, the resale infrastructure is set in stone. The publisher may choose to take part in it or not, but the way the discs and the game registering work _(the discs are for installing only and are registered to the console they were first used on)_, they cannot be resold without prior unregistering... and to unregister them, you need to go through Microsoft's loops and hoops.


Which is an inconvenience only for the gamers, not the publishers, and since we haven't seen the system in action, we don't know what the loops and hoops will be like or how loopy and hoopy they will be. 


DRM is "imposed" on publishers in the sense that they have to give a definitive answer (tick a few boxes on a drop down "publish game" menu), and that's about that. If the publisher decides to allow game resales, or trade-ins, I don't see what's there to prevent it. The DRM framework is there at the publisher's convenience, and they are free to lift all restrictions if they want - or enforce all of them. Again, it's up to them.


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## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> You mean if they choose to ban resales.


You can either participate in the resale program or ban reselling - there's no middle ground because all the games are registered on Live and the disc is not resellable until they're unregistered, and that's something Microsoft handles as it stands today.


> It's the first owners who sell the games, and second owners who buy them, and the retailers are pointless leeches wedging themselves in the middle and skimming from the top and bottom (and sides, if possible), and inflating prices.


What I meant to say was that the person who should set the price for the used game is the person selling it. If it's a retail store, it's the retailer who sets the price. If it's you then you sell the game for whatever amount of money you want.


> And software licences don't work like hat sales, so that point is moot. I swear I've had this conversation before somewhere.


Ownership is still ownership - licensed or not.


> It's imposed on the gamers. I doubt the publishers will suffer much from it, because I doubt defining the DRM parameters (on a scale from 0 to 1984) will take that much time. I imagine there's an adjustable knob. In any case, a company spending a year on making a game won't really notice the half-hour it takes to fill out the DRM settings form. There is nothing _forcing_ them to turn the crank up to 11, it's up to them.


You don't seem to understand my point. Regardless of whether the publisher wants to include DRM or not, it has to participate in the resale program to allow the sale of their used games - this is a hurdle they _must_ jump over due to game registration. The games, be it digital downloads or discs, are registered to your Live account and until they are unregistered, they cannot be sold. To unregister them, you have to go through Microsoft's elaborate resale scheme. If you don't, the game remains on your Live account and your physical disc/digital download is the equivalent of a frisbie... or a TRON disc.


> And if the publisher does take part in the resale infrastructure, and sets the resale fee to zero, and we know that Microsoft won't charge licence transfer fees, then the game is resellable pretty much the same way it was on previous consoles, the difference being that you have to register it once you buy it.


I do believe that setting the fee to zero is not an option, I've read about it somewhere... however it's unconfirmed information so I won't toss around links. If there _is_ an option like this then yes, it nullifies the problem.


> Which is an inconvenience only for the gamers, not the publishers, and since we haven't seen the system in action, we don't know what the loops and hoops will be like or how loopy and hoopy they will be.


It's inconvenience for both since it's just paperwork loops and hoops both the gamers and the publishers have to go through and they're completely unnecessary.


> DRM is "imposed" on publishers in the sense that they have to give a definitive answer (tick a few boxes on a drop down "publish game" menu), and that's about that. If the publisher decides to allow game resales, or trade-ins, I don't see what's there to prevent it. The DRM framework is there at the publisher's convenience, and they are free to lift all restrictions if they want - or enforce all of them. Again, it's up to them.


 
Of course it's imposed and of course it's inconvenience because the publishers have to keep track of all their decisions within the system. Even if the publisher does want the game to be resold, doesn't want to be a d*ck and sets the fee to zero, it's still additional useless decision-making, and it's not a matter of just _"ticking boxes"_ - the board has to discuss them for each and every game - Microsoft is wasting everyone's time.


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## Veho (Jun 15, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> You can either participate in the resale program or ban reselling - there's no middle ground because all the games are registered on Live and the disc is not resellable until they're unregistered, and that's something Microsoft handles as it stands today.


"Participating in the program but not enforcing resale fees" is a middle ground. 



> Ownership is still ownership - licensed or not.


And you do not _own_ the game.  



> You don't seem to understand my point. Regardless of whether the publisher wants to include DRM or not, it has to participate in the resale program to allow the sale of their used games - this is a hurdle they _must_ jump over due to game registration. The games, be it digital downloads or discs, are registered to your Live account and until they are unregistered, they cannot be sold. To unregister them, you have to go through Microsoft's elaborate resale scheme. If you don't, the game remains on your Live account and your physical disc/digital download is the equivalent of a frisbie... or a TRON disc.


That's a hurdle for the consumer, not the publisher. The publisher decides once and is then done with the whole process. And how much of a hurdle for the consumer it is depends on how complicated Microsoft makes it. 

...yeah, "Microsoft" and "not complicated" don't really go together. 

Still, it remains to be seen.  



> It's inconvenience for both since it's just paperwork loops and hoops both the gamers and the publishers have to go through and they're completely unnecessary.
> [...]Of course it's imposed and of course it's inconvenience because the publishers have to keep track of all their decisions within the system. Even if the publisher does want the game to be resold, doesn't want to be a d*ck and sets the fee to zero, it's still additional useless decision-making, and it's not a matter of just _"ticking boxes"_ - the board has to discuss them for each and every game - Microsoft is wasting everyone's time.


Or the publisher could assume a single and unified policy on DRM across their entire library, and pretend they have some integrity, instead of adjusting the DRM differently for every single game and appearing to the public as unprincipled whores. 

And now I suggest we drop this until Microsoft gives more details about the system because we're just going around in circles at the moment.


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## Foxi4 (Jun 15, 2013)

Veho said:


> And you do not _own_ the game.


Just the license to use a given piece of software, which is the object I'm willing to part with when selling a used game.


> That's a hurdle for the consumer, not the publisher. The publisher decides once and is then done with the whole process. And how much of a hurdle for the consumer it is depends on how complicated Microsoft makes it.


Let's call it additional paperwork then.


> ...yeah, "Microsoft" and "not complicated" don't really go together.


Yep.


> Or the publisher could assume a single and unified policy on DRM across their entire library, and pretend they have some integrity, instead of adjusting the DRM differently for every single game and appearing to the public as unprincipled whores.


I suppose that can be done, however it's still more tickboxes to tick. 


> And now I suggest we drop this until Microsoft gives more details about the system because we're just going around in circles at the moment.


 
That may be a good thing to do since as it stands today, nobody seems to be 100% certain how this system works, including Microsoft's own employees.


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## the_randomizer (Jun 15, 2013)

Irrespective of whether someone has a license to "own" a game or not, that never stopped people from circumventing AP/DRM in the past. Why would it do anything to curtail that now? Microsoft's conflicting statements only prove to confuse the potential customers; but like what others have said, we'd best wait it out to see how their console works.


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## McHaggis (Jun 16, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> I suppose you could arrange a deal where someone pays you in advance and then you _"gift"_ the game to said person, however that opens up a world of opportunities to scammers.


Yeah, if they don't mind waiting 30 days to receive the game ;-)





> "There are two requirements: you can only give them to people who have been on your friends list for at least 30 days and each game can only be given once."


 
Honestly, I can't understand why Microsoft have set up this huge DRM framework if they supposedly don't benefit from it themselves. I think it shows how little they care about their consumers in comparison to 3rd-party publishers. I do think that's a bit of a crock, though, since there's clearly going to be some behind-the-scenes "administration fees" for allowing those selected retailers to trade-in games.

Microsoft may have it backwards this generation, but I think it's the retailers who are stupid here. They're going to be selling a console and games that will take away a big portion of their market. Those retailers make more from used games than they do from new ones. If I were in charge of best buy or one of the other big retailers, I'd simply be refusing to sell the XBox One or its games until policies were changed back in my favour. Particularly GAME, here in the UK, have a lot of power since they bought up Gamestation and ran it into the ground, don't have a competitor on the same level as them. If they refused to sell the XBox One console, it would almost certainly crash and burn from the moment it's launched. I guess none of those people have backbones, though.


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## ComeTurismO (Jun 16, 2013)

I just want to post my reaction to Microsoft's no game access, after being banned.
WTF MICROSOFT?


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## Terenigma (Jun 16, 2013)

After reading about the "ban" topic on xbox one meaning you don't have access to the games you bought on disc I have to wonder. Do Sony have the right to publish an advert simply explaining all the negative (but true) things about their rival's console? 

Let's say both consoles come out and the Xbox one DOES have bans that stop you playing games you buy. Can sony then make an advert highlighting this issue and explaining that no such thing will be present in their console? Or does that cross a line of legality?


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## Kalker3 (Jun 16, 2013)

Terenigma said:


> After reading about the "ban" topic on xbox one meaning you don't have access to the games you bought on disc I have to wonder. Do Sony have the right to publish an advert simply explaining all the negative (but true) things about their rival's console?
> 
> Let's say both consoles come out and the Xbox one DOES have bans that stop you playing games you buy. Can sony then make an advert highlighting this issue and explaining that no such thing will be present in their console? Or does that cross a line of legality?


 

When advertising, you can't just say "Our product has something that this one doesn't" (or the opposite) because you're degrading the rival's company image, which is (I think) forbidden.


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## emigre (Jun 16, 2013)

Terenigma said:


> After reading about the "ban" topic on xbox one meaning you dont have access to the games you bought on disc i have to wonder. Do sony have the right to publish an advert simply explaining all the negative (but true) things about their rivals console?
> 
> Lets say both consoles come out and the Xbox one DOES have bans that stop you playing games you buy. Can sony then make an advert highlighting this issue and explaining that no such thing will be present in their console? Or does that cross a line of legality?


 

If it's true than Sony have done nothing wrong legally, it isn't libel if it is correct. However Sony don't and will not do anything like that because they have much better things to promote about the PS4. Even than it would highly unprofessional for Sony to that cuz it does seem the Playstation leadership are actually competent.


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## Terenigma (Jun 16, 2013)

emigre said:


> *If it's true than Sony have done nothing wrong legally, it isn't libel if it is correct*. However Sony don't and will not do anything like that because they have much better things to promote about the PS4. Even than it would highly unprofessional for Sony to that cuz it does seem the Playstation leadership are actually competent.


 
This is what I assumed, although it would be very unprofessional as you say. I still think all this info needs to be available to the public though, my friend loves his 360 and was all fanboyish and had no clue to any of these "issues" because he doesn't follow it like I do and I had to clue him in and when I did, boy did he change his tune about what next gen console he wants. 

I just feel the public needs to know what they are getting themselves into before they buy it, companies need to realise when it's too much. Capcom are one company who consistently do stuff just to "test the waters" and see what people are willing to put up with. Now it feels like Microsoft are doing it with games consoles. What if they can turn the cameras and microphones on and off when they want? They are effectively spying on minors and since you have to be online to play the console then all they have to do is wait a minimum of 24hours before they WILL come online and there ya go. Privacy = gone.

The general public needs to know this, if sony dont make an advert highlighting this stuff then someone on youtube better and spread it like wildfire.


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## McHaggis (Jun 17, 2013)

Terenigma said:


> After reading about the "ban" topic on xbox one meaning you don't have access to the games you bought on disc I have to wonder. Do Sony have the right to publish an advert simply explaining all the negative (but true) things about their rival's console?
> 
> Let's say both consoles come out and the Xbox one DOES have bans that stop you playing games you buy. Can sony then make an advert highlighting this issue and explaining that no such thing will be present in their console? Or does that cross a line of legality?





emigre said:


> If it's true than Sony have done nothing wrong legally, it isn't libel if it is correct. However Sony don't and will not do anything like that because they have much better things to promote about the PS4. Even than it would highly unprofessional for Sony to that cuz it does seem the Playstation leadership are actually competent.


 
Known as comparative marketing, the law can vary between territories and depends entirely on the use of the trademark.  IIRC, it's now regulated by the EU for most European countries, including the United Kingdom, which is one of the reasons for the recent increase in supermarkets like Tesco and Asda using each others logos in television advertisements.  As emigre said, they'd probably be OK as long as they remain completely clear and honest.  For example, they wouldn't be able to say something like _"Unlike with the XBox One, you can easily trade in your Playstation 4 games"_, because it could be construed as them implying XBox One games cannot be traded at all.  On the other hand, it may be fine to say something like _"Microsoft impose certain restrictions on trading used games for XBox One, but Sony imposes no such restrictions for Playstation 4"_.  While this tactic might work for supermarkets, Sony know that people would rather see the goods than listen to a brief presentation on why people shouldn't buy a rival console.

TL;DR what emigre said .


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## Metoroid0 (Jun 18, 2013)

_Part 1_​​
​​_Part 2_​​


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