# R4 Dealers being Threatened by the ESA?



## sonic209 (Nov 12, 2007)

check this out http://www.ds-scene.net/?s=viewtopic&id=1517&p=1 is it true?


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## Lupigen (Nov 12, 2007)

Since they're using the DMCA as a basis, this should only affect sellers based in/connected to the US. This is why DX suggests using VolumeRate (http://www.dealextreme.com/forums/Forums.dx/Forum.-202~threadid.31088), since VR is based in China.


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## Nero (Nov 12, 2007)

I don't know... The R4 can be used mainly for Homebrew, and it all depends on the user's decision to play ROMs or not.

They just make up some reverse-engineering bullshit to battle with Flashcarts..

~Nero


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## chatton859 (Nov 12, 2007)

id say that it is bull....jsut someone faking this stuff... u are legally allowed to make backup copies of ANY software that u own.

besides Amazon.com still sales these and they are US based. I'm pretty sure that  one of the U.S.'s largest online retailer would get a cease and decist letter...


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## roadbusta (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> u are legally allowed to make backup copies of ANY software that u own.



Is this really true? And what about all those disclaimers saying "do not make illegal nackups of this disk" etc?

Does it applie to the software in the NDS cart?


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## Cyan (Nov 12, 2007)

roadbusta said:
			
		

> Is this really true? And what about all those disclaimers saying "do not make illegal nackups of this disk" etc?


I think each country has is own law for this.

In france for example, we were paying a tax for the right to do personal copies. France is selling Blank CD/DVD/Tape/HDD (yeah even hdd)/Any blank media, a lot higher in price than other European countries. The tax is supposed to be paid back to artist like singers. You want to burn your holliday's pictures, you pay singer tax on it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



But just recently, a minister changed the law and said this right was hereby forbidden. And know what ? they didn't removed the tax at all, and making a personal copy is good for prison 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



1year prison and 300 000 euro. It's cheaper to kill someone 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



(kill the police that come to seize you, it will be cheaper than if they caught you with a copied game)


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## Nicky33 (Nov 12, 2007)

Damn right


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## spinal_cord (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(roadbusta @ Nov 12 2007 said:


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As far as I understand it, you are allowed to make a backup yourself from your own software/hardware. So if you download your 'backup' it is illegal as you did not create that backup yourself and it is not a backup of your exact game.
If you sell/give away/lose your original game, then your backup becomes completly illegal because you do not own the original the backup was made from.


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## shakirmoledina (Nov 12, 2007)

we did see someone receiving a letter of warning and the person has stopped selling them


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## rhyguy (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(spinal_cord @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> QUOTE(roadbusta @ Nov 12 2007 said:
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isnt the point of  a backup to use if you lose your game?


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## Lukeage (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(roadbusta @ Nov 12 2007 said:


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Since you are Australian, here is our current copyright laws regarding software.

"Making a back-up copy of a computer program

The owner of a legitimate copy of a computer program may make a back-up copy of a program, either to use in place of the original copy, or to store as a backup for use if the original or an earlier back-up is lost, destroyed or rendered unusable.

The provisions in the Copyright Act also allow copying of software as part of a normal process of backing up files for security purposes.

The provisions do not allow copies to be made from an infringing copy of a computer program, or if the owner of copyright in the program has blocked the making of copies of the program (for example, by the use of 'locks' or other technological devices built into the program). Also, the provisions do not apply if the licence governing the use of the original has expired or been terminated.

The back-up copy may be made whether or not the copyright owner makes an express direction to the contrary at or before the time of purchase, for example on the package."

Available at: http://www.copyright.org.au/information/G050.pdf

In regards to DS software, if it contains anything to hinder copying, well that is up to how you interpret the law. Unfortunately in Australia, thanks to the bullshit free trade agreement, we have also adopted the DMCA and as the DS uses RSA to encrypt part of the code, it is most likely in violation of this although no one has been able to tell me if using the DS itself to 'break' the encyption is against the law, since the DS is designed by the manufacturer to do this.


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## zabikt (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(chatton859 @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> id say that it is bull....jsut someone faking this stuff... u are legally allowed to make backup copies of ANY software that u own.


Do you own ANY Nintendo game?
All Nintendo games (first party) released in USA have in manual page titled "Important Legal Informations".
Most important part of this information is:


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## Lukeage (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(zabikt @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> QUOTE(chatton859 @ Nov 12 2007 said:
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> > id say that it is bull....jsut someone faking this stuff... u are legally allowed to make backup copies of ANY software that u own.Do you own ANY Nintendo game?
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It says that in almost all software sold in Australia too, but if you read my previous post, this is not a legal contract (and in Australia, any EULA isn't a valid contract due to it being presented after the point of sale). I'd be very surprised if under US copyright law you are not allowed to make legal backups.


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## Raisingod (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(zabikt @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> QUOTE(chatton859 @ Nov 12 2007 said:
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> > id say that it is bull....jsut someone faking this stuff... u are legally allowed to make backup copies of ANY software that u own.Do you own ANY Nintendo game?
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Thats true since the DMCA prohibet bypassing digital security methods( such a thing is needed in order to make backups).

Yep US laws restric your consumer freedom just to please the big copration


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## Hit (Nov 12, 2007)

Yes we where to and we had a simple solution to sell them on an Chinese hosted webshop
There powerless against webshops that has nothing to do with the USA

And the worst thing is they lie, what they say is full of bullshit
We always advertised R4 as an homebrew device
And there for ESA claimed the R4 uses Boot Code from Nintendo, there explanation was it was reverse engineered which is not possible for coding atm
But ok there supported by the government so wat can you do then listen to these lie 'rs!

There Americans that can't even type right come on thats unprofessional always with such emails double check it
With there "Copryright"

I'd say do not ignore them they really shutdown your hosts, just get an hosting not in the USA

In one word "Bully's"


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## moggymatt (Nov 12, 2007)

Surely if the R4 contained Nintendo boot code they would go after the R4 makers/progammers not ONE shop?!?


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## Hit (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(moggymatt @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> Surely if the R4 contained Nintendo boot code they would go after the R4 makers/progammers not ONE shop?!?


Well they can't ESA is shutting down resellers due R4's Hosting is located in China


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## adgloride (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(Cyan @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> roadbusta said:
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You may as well take up burglary.  They don't fine you and you can still keep everything you've stolen.  You'd be very unlucky if you had to go to Jail for a year.  Now that's a proper crime.  These big companies have been over charging for years.  How many games that you've downloaded would you have actually bought if you couldn't play copies of them?


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## Nero (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(Hit @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> Yes we where to and we had a simple solution to sell them on an Chinese hosted webshop
> There powerless against webshops that has nothing to do with the USA
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> And the worst thing is they lie, what they say is full of bullshit
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Exactly what I said in the first page.

They're making up bullshit about the R4. (Reverse engineering and crap... It's all bull)

~Nero


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## BoneMonkey (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(roadbusta @ Nov 12 2007 said:


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in the US thats it not true you are not allowed to make a backup of your own disc :-(


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## hollabackitsobi (Nov 12, 2007)

Why don't people go and outlaw guns and shit that are ONLY used to kill, instead of insignificant stuff like homebrew carts that may (and yes, are usually) used to pirate games? Damn the world we live in.


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## kellyan95 (Nov 12, 2007)

Hey, guns can be used to start marathon races.


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## Nero (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(kellyan95 @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> Hey, guns can be used to start marathon races.









 Owned.

Hmm.. They could like, pop a really large balloon as a substitute for that.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




~Nero


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## coolbho3000 (Nov 12, 2007)

Bullshit ESA said:
			
		

> These devices circumvent copryright protection measures implemented by the console's manufacturer and are used to play pirated *Nintendo GBA* and DS games



DID THEY NOT BOTHER TO READ THE STICKY THREADS


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## NonStopInTheMix (Nov 12, 2007)

This is actually pretty funny i think.  I bought the R4 when it first came out and a little after, the supercard ds one since i trusted the brand because i had a supercard CF for my gameboy advanced SP.

I think that the ESA is taking this way too seriously but it also shows the kind of publicity that the R4 has gotten throughout the past year. From its release its been a very stable and easy to use piece of hardware and i guess thats why people like it.

Why i laugh is because the supercard team, basically pioneers of the rom and flashcart business, arent even being affected at all. they're off making and mass distributing their supercard ds ones and nobody really gives a care due to their bad rap from their first batch of slot-1 flashcarts (and to clear any flaming, i have a supercard ds one and it works great, a bit slower than the r4 but i love the gui)

Hey ESA + Nintendo stop being so dumb, if u wanna get rid of flashcarts, at least try to get them all haha

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5097
^ so R4's have been taking off DX, i dont think these guys are leaving anytime soon


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## Nero (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(coolbho3000 @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> Bullshit ESA said:
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Nice find man... You just owned them.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




~Nero


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## hollabackitsobi (Nov 12, 2007)

QUOTE(coolbho3000 @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> Bullshit ESA said:
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ROFL. Omg EPIC fucking win. Post of the year.


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## spinal_cord (Nov 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Hit @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> There Americans that can't even type right



Surely _They're_ Americans that can't even type _properly_ ?


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## DarkAura (Nov 13, 2007)

Owned.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The R4 will be fine.  Once one 'factory' or dealer is down, a bunch more will pop up.  Like retman/Wii_DS.


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## Pigwooly (Nov 13, 2007)

The R4 is listed at Amazon.com. That's the kind of high profile thing that's probably singled them out for this kind of thing.


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## Deleted User (Nov 13, 2007)

If it is true it sounds to me like they are clutching at straws to make anything stick. Copyrighted boot code, what a crock of shit.


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## Nero (Nov 13, 2007)

That fraudulent ESA is so stupid, it's not even funny.

If they wanted to make a fraud site, at least make it look legit.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




~Nero


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## Deleted User (Nov 13, 2007)

So the Nintendo message says copying a game is illegal ... when it's really legal.  Violators will be prosecuted?  And set free supposedly?

Clear as mud.


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## 2dere (Nov 13, 2007)

Wow. Learned a lot today. But if this only effects the sellers of the carts based in the US. Does that mean if (and since there is) alternatives not based in US its only going to make it a little more difficult for US buyers than any thing else? Its not that i don't care for you Americans but It shouldn't make any real difference to the scene or the R4's popularity? 
)


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## enarky (Nov 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Saturnplanet5 @ Nov 13 2007 said:


> Copyrighted boot code, what a crock of shit.


Actually that's not a crock of shit. Even when card manufacturers completely write their own code, they have to include the mandatory header information. This includes a copyrighted Nintendo logo (I'm not kidding! NDS header information, GBA header information, GB/C header information. Look out for "Nintendo Logo"). On boot all Nintendo Handhelds since the original GB check if that image is present in a ROMs header, when it's not the Hardware doesn't start.

There was a company, Sachen, which circumvented this on GB and GBC, but on GBA and Nintendo DS this isn't possible anymore, AFAIK. It was standard for a while to distribute GB and GBA homebrew without proper header and let the user add that later, but I think this was stopped due to being quite inconvenient (and most users generally being stupid). I don't know if PassMe devices manage without that information in the header, IIRC they use a exploit in the RSA check, no idea if that takes place before or after the logo check, but any NoPass device (that includes nearly all Slot-1 cards) have to include this copyrighted image somewhere in their code.


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## NonStopInTheMix (Nov 13, 2007)

QUOTE(2dere @ Nov 13 2007 said:


> Wow. Learned a lot today. But if this only effects the sellers of the carts based in the US. Does that mean if (and since there is) alternatives not based in US its only going to make it a little more difficult for US buyers than any thing else? Its not that i don't care for you Americans but It shouldn't make any real difference to the scene or the R4's popularity?
> )



yepps XD sites like Kickgaming are rooted in Canada so people can still buy from them... just the costs are a bit higher than the old dealextreme ones but *sighs* what can you do?


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## Alastair (Nov 13, 2007)

QUOTE(Lukeage @ Nov 12 2007 said:


> Unfortunately in Australia, thanks to the bullshit free trade agreement, we have also adopted the DMCA



God bless America.


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## chatton859 (Nov 14, 2007)

here is the current DMCA text from wiliepedia:

"The *current administratively-created exemptions*, issued in November 2006, are:

Audiovisual works included in the educational library of a college or university’s film or media studies department, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of making compilations of portions of those works for educational use in the classroom by media studies or film professors. (A new exemption in 2006.) 
Computer programs and *video games *distributed in formats that have become obsolete and *that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access*, *when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation* or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. (A renewed exemption, first approved in 2003.) "

so yes if u own it u can have a copy of it.. U.S. law overshadows any end user agreement.  Just because a company puts it in a book doesn't make it legal.  Lots of company do illegal things....... look at  Enron.........


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## enarky (Nov 14, 2007)

Please read the passage you quoted again and pay special attention to the usage of the word "obsolete" this time.


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