# Race, Ethnicity, and Nationality? Your thoughts?



## Deleted User (Jan 13, 2018)

Now, before we get started, I want to make sure that everybody is aware of what this thread is about. First of all, all of these topics are important to individual people, and it may be an uncomfortable topic. I will do my best to refrain from any remarks will make others feel uncomfortable. If you feel that you might not like this topic, I would invite you to leave for your own sake, as this is the temp we are talking about. Second, I don't want this turning into a political debate. In the world as we know it today, these issues are huge, so they have a spot in this forum, but I want you to express your views and not bash political parties.

So, now that that is over with, let us continue.

First of all, let's start with the most obvious one. Nationality.
An individual's nationality is tied directly to the country of which they are a legal resident. If Derrek is living in the United States, and is a citizen, he is American. If Johnny is living in the United States, but is a citizen of Canada and not the United States, he is Canadian. Nationality has nothing to do with your own mindset, because it is completely a legal issue.​
Next up: Race.
Race is a tricky one (as I am sure most of us reading this have already figured out in our everyday lives). Race is based on one's perception of another, and from there they get placed into groups. The most common race terms are "White" and "Black" referring to the color of the skin. Race is not something changeable by the person that belongs to the race. They will most always belong to that race. Race is what the majority of segregated regulations are based off of, because it is based primarily off of physical characteristics.​
Next up: Ethnicity.
Ethnicity is the most difficult one to explain. An individual's ethnicity is completely decided upon by the individual. Ethnicity is the social construct used to identify people who fall in line with the practices of a specific culture. Terms like "African-American", "Hispanic", and "Asian-American" are commonly used. Ethnicity (like stated earlier) *can* be changed by the person identifying themselves. Unlike race, ethnicity is not based off of physical characteristics.
​An example:
Now that all of that information has been said, you still might be confused as to what I mean.

Jimmy is the name of the example:
Nationality: Canadian
Race: White
Ethnicity: African-Canadian
Jimmy's mother was a white, South African who was in support of removing the apartheid in South Africa. She ended up migrating to Canada, where she met her husband. Then they settled down and had Jimmy. When Jimmy was growing up, his father taught him French (or Canadian-French, I don't know the difference) which he used frequently to communicate with his friends. However, he frequently traveled down to South Africa to meet up with his relatives, and hence gained a sense of their culture.
Now a man, Jimmy's current attitude and methods of life are based on both his race (White) and how that leads him down different paths, but also the teachings he received from his maternal relatives as well as fraternal relatives, so he is racially identified as White, but self-identifies as African-Canadian.​What are your thoughts? Do you believe that race and ethnicity are one in the same, or do you believe that they draw a fine line?

Side Note: With the above notes listed, I would like to express that I believe that calling somebody Black or White is not politically incorrect when referring to their race, and that calling them African-American or Caucasian-American *are* politically incorrect when referring to their race. Just puts a spin on perspective.


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## VinsCool (Jan 13, 2018)

Well, there are difference between each of them, from what I could understand.

Race defines a persons origin. Mostly a group of individual, mostly the skin colours or physical traits.
Nationality, as you said, defines where a person lives. I could have black skin, live in Canada, and just be Canadian.
Ethnicity however is a bit more diffuse. My personal understanding over this one is a mix of the 2 first elements. I often think that Ethnicity and Race could be synonyms at this point.

For most of this I'd agree with you, since it _does_ make sense to me.

If I were to give my personal thought on this, I'd just ditch Race and Ethnicity altogether, since most of times, only Nationality is taken in consideration, despite the skin colour, native language or some of the cultural traits a person may have.
I could make bad assumptions there, but I think that would make more sense this way.


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## Deleted User (Jan 13, 2018)

VinsCool said:


> If I were to give my personal thought on this, I'd just ditch Race and Ethnicity altogether, since most of times, only Nationality is taken in consideration, despite the skin colour, native language or some of the cultural traits a person may have.
> I could make bad assumptions there, but I think that would make more sense this way.


My major problem with Race/Ethnicity is that it divides us so that all we see are the differences between us.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jan 13, 2018)

blujay said:


> My major problem with Race/Ethnicity is that it divides us so that all we see are the differences between us.



At the end of the day, we all bleed red. Of course, we as a race (humanity) tend to fear things that are different or that we don't understand.


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## VinsCool (Jan 13, 2018)

blujay said:


> My major problem with Race/Ethnicity is that it divides us so that all we see are the differences between us.


That's more or less my issue as well.
I'd rather think of people for their nationality, simply.
Racial arguments only created conflicts over time, because some people sure love to spot the differences and use them against someone when they want to disagree with them.


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## Deleted User (Jan 13, 2018)

Memoir said:


> At the end of the day, we all bleed red. Of course, we as a race (humanity) tend to fear things that are different or that we don't understand.


I was watching a speedrunner once who said the natural instinct of man since the caveman day has been to divide and discriminate others. If we could just get past that, we would become the best we've ever been.


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## VinsCool (Jan 13, 2018)

blujay said:


> I was watching a speedrunner once who said the natural instinct of man since the caveman day has been to divide and discriminate others. If we could just get past that, we would become the best we've ever been.


Mankind has been what we know for millenniums, it's pretty hard to change what is engraved very deeply, I guess.


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## HamBone41801 (Jan 13, 2018)

blujay said:


> Now, before we get started, I want to make sure that everybody is aware of what this thread is about. First of all, all of these topics are important to individual people, and it may be an uncomfortable topic. I will do my best to refrain from any remarks will make others feel uncomfortable. If you feel that you might not like this topic, I would invite you to leave for your own sake, as this is the temp we are talking about. Second, I don't want this turning into a political debate. In the world as we know it today, these issues are huge, so they have a spot in this forum, but I want you to express your views and not bash political parties.
> 
> So, now that that is over with, let us continue.
> 
> ...


as for that last bit about terminology, that's purely a cultural thing. For instance, in places like Guyana, n**** is the preferred term, not black.


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## Deleted User (Jan 13, 2018)

Speaking as someone who, racially, is part-Filipino, part-Italian, part-Scottish, and part-German, I can assure you that I don't give two flying fucks about my race, and really only think of it when it's relevant to the conversation.  

In America, there really is no racial profile for being American.  I, honestly, think this is a good thing.  America was, and should be, a place where people from around the world, the rejected and the struggling, can go to and erk out a living for themselves.  People shouldn't have to care about whether you're an Englishman, or Dutch, or Chinese, or Korean, or what have you.  This isn't always the case in the USA, unfortunately, but it's a nice ideal to work towards.

I hope I'm not going to start another fight about Trump on here by saying this, but this is what our president doesn't understand.  People don't come here from places like Norway, which are already doing fine.  They're coming from places like Haiti and the Middle East.  They come from places that are, either financially or in terms of general quality of life, "shitholes."  That's why they come here in the first place: to seek a better life.  Back in the 1800s, all of the people emigrating from various European countries (and a few non-European countries like China) were doing so because said countries were "shitholes."  Why would they move to another country in the first place otherwise?  

Humans are inherently discriminating creatures, and, in the search for identity, look for something to simultaneously differentiate themselves from others as well as associate themselves with a group.  I imagine I'm going to get some shit for saying this, but on my time on the internet, I've seen people from other countries say pretty disparaging and ignorant things about Americans, all Americans, without stopping to consider either the sub-groups of Americans or each American as an individual.  That's not to say that Americans themselves are innocent of racism, far from it, but they're hardly the only ones guilty of carrying it out.  

Ideally, we should all be able to sit, chat, enjoy ourselves, or even work together without having to even stop to consider one's race, ethnicity, or national affiliations.  We're all humans, in the end.  We're all aware of inherently human concepts like love, hate, pain, joy, etc.  People should stop acting like they're better than others because of an association.


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## 330 (Jan 13, 2018)

I feel like nationality should be given after proven to deserving it rather than a right. Everyone (not only immigrants) should take a Citizenship test after they turn 18. It's important to speak your own language correctly and to know the history of your own country to avoid making the same mistakes. I'm not saying that a person born in the USA that has failed the citizenship test should be deported somewhere else, but they shouldn't have all the rights of a citizen either.
This could help people understand voting as well. If you want to invest money, for example, all the banks worldwide make you do a simple test to see if you're a fitting candidate to let you buy shares and bonds. If you don't pass the test, they won't let you. Having everyone work hard for their citizenship would make voting better, in my opinion.

I won't discuss race and ethnicity, as I find extremely stupid to call a black person "colored" and somehow owe something to a whole community just because I'm white and they're black.


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## Cylent1 (Jan 13, 2018)

There is no such thing!
Its all part of the greed, and control that they put you into like groups to control us compartmentalized to make the transition smoother for the NWO that will never happen..
Racism is what you the individual makes of it, Also Racism is taught, not learned if anybody needs a refresher!

These are just my 2 cents...


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## Viri (Jan 13, 2018)

330 said:


> I feel like nationality should be given after proven to deserving it rather than a right. Everyone (not only immigrants) should take a Citizenship test after they turn 18. It's important to speak your own language correctly and to know the history of your own country to avoid making the same mistakes.


Hah, we have people who claim voter IDs are somehow racist, there is no way that would ever get passed.


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## xpoverzion (Jan 13, 2018)

There are only two kinds of people in the world that really matter at the end of the day.   Jews, and Non-Jews. If you don't get that, then you have no clue how the world really works.


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## Noctosphere (Jan 13, 2018)

some people in quebec dont like the word "race" to define peoples
but in fact, it's the right word
it's the same with dogs
you guys use the word breed for dogs, but in french, we use the same word for people and animals, races
dogs all have the same basics specificity that defines them as dogs
but they also have some differences between them that makes them proper to a race/breed

It's the same with us human, 
We all have specificity in common (2 legs, 2 arm, 2 hand 2 feet, a head, hairs at specific places, we all have the same digestive, neural and muscular system, etc) but we also have difference between all human, which are race/breed (color of skin, shape of the body, shape of mouth, color of eyes/hair, etc)


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## HamBone41801 (Jan 13, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> There is no such thing!
> Its all part of the greed, and control that they put you into like groups to control us compartmentalized to make the transition smoother for the NWO that will never happen..
> Racism is what you the individual makes of it, Also Racism is taught, not learned if anybody needs a refresher!
> 
> These are just my 2 cents...


I want you to say "Racism is taught, not learned" out loud. *Slowly.*


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## gameboy (Jan 13, 2018)

....white people...


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## HamBone41801 (Jan 13, 2018)

gameboy said:


> ....white people...


I know right. *He says, knowing that he is, in fact, the whitest son-of-a-bitch in existence*


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## Whole lotta love (Jan 17, 2018)

Race is a social construct use to categorize humans based on phenotypical, ancestral, social, and cultural characteristics. 

For example, the White race as a concept originates in the 17th century, which was created as a means of social control. It was quickly picked up and spread by other European immigrants (namely Irish and Italian) to help relieve persecution as they were not considered white and faced similar racial discrimination as black people.

Germans, Italians, Portuguese, Greeks, and many other European people were not considered white until the 20th century.

Here is Ben Franklin saying that only the Saxons were white:


> [...]in _Europe_, the _Spaniards_, Italians,   _French_, _Russians_ and _Swedes_, are generally of what we call   a swarthy Complexion; as are the _Germans_ also, the _Saxons_ only   excepted, who with the _English_, make the principal Body of White People   on the Face of the Earth.



Today, light skinned Cubans and other Hispanic people who would previously be considered second or third class citizens pass and identify as white without trouble.

Race is a social construct that changes with as the society changes. There is biomarker for race.


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## Nightwish (Jan 17, 2018)

330 said:


> I feel like nationality should be given after proven to deserving it rather than a right. Everyone (not only immigrants) should take a Citizenship test after they turn 18. It's important to speak your own language correctly and to know the history of your own country to avoid making the same mistakes.



Dictatorships have used the stripping of nationality to deprive dissidents of any rights, including leaving the country, and there is no way to do it without opening it to abuse. Would believing in socialism and MMT label me as an undesirable? Nationality is a fundamental human right defended by the UN for good reasons.



> There are only two kinds of people in the world that really matter at the end of the day.   Jews, and Non-Jews. If you don't get that, then you have no clue how the world really works.



We all saw that coming, didn't we? Not even replying...


As to the topic, those are things that define where you come from, not what you are, especially after 18 years living and breathing. They help you connect with others and their issues, but there's nothing special about it. Maybe with race and sex, but there's no good that can come from finding it out, and it all changes quickly as we interbreed.



Whole lotta love said:


> Germans, Italians, Portuguese, Greeks, and many other European people were not considered white until the 20th century.



I'll leave this here.


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## Whole lotta love (Jan 17, 2018)

Noctosphere said:


> some people in quebec dont like the word "race" to define peoples
> but in fact, it's the right word
> it's the same with dogs
> you guys use the word breed for dogs, but in french, we use the same word for people and animals, races
> ...



Dog breeds can be identified genetically. 

Can you identify the race of a human based on their DNA?


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## Deleted User (Jan 17, 2018)

Whole lotta love said:


> Can you identify the race of a human based on their DNA?


I sincerely hope this is sarcasm because what controls skin color (the primary identifier of race)? DNA. The whole thing that makes humans different from each other is DNA.


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## Noctosphere (Jan 17, 2018)

Whole lotta love said:


> Dog breeds can be identified genetically.
> 
> Can you identify the race of a human based on their DNA?


actually yes


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## FAST6191 (Jan 18, 2018)

We appear to be operating on slightly different definitions.

Race. Possibly something of an archaic term, or at least one with a lot of legacy baggage. I did post the pictures around here somewhere of some old book I had for a while covering some of the things, can't find where but they were apparently still on my camera so round 2.

   
For as... interesting as the above is it recognises more than black and white. Or if you prefer how do I reconcile a New Zealand aboriginal with west coast Africa. Their common ancestors are on almost geologic times.

Ethnicity
While it seems anything likely called human which is alive today could theoretically have mated with another and produced viable offspring it is far from completely random, and historically it was somewhat less random still. As country borders don't follow such lines (country borders themselves being a historically interesting concept, and quite fluid as well where the concept might have existed for longer) I would say this is more genetic than not. Said country borders may aid in the divergence of it, and historically religion may have done another (still has some effect today, see also some of the Balkans, but nowhere near what it once did). Genetics would then be a component in some of this. Geography (China and India do share a border, however they have some small hills that make visiting a pain), technology (one tends to look at the sizes of US states) and society (good leadership/generals and such) may also have impacted things.

Nationality. Country borders. Though I am less concerned with legal status (even if it is a quick way) as much as traits, identification with aspects of the culture there... basically someone could have one thing but be another, such a thing being commonly seen with those that moved somewhere as a child. Dual nationality, such that it still exists, might also trouble things. Legal status is another thing which could get interesting
For instance
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/eligible-vote-uk-general-election/
The Republic of Ireland is a separate country from the UK, and has been for as long as all but its oldest residents likely remember, but apparently its citizens can still vote in UK elections with about as much effort as someone born and bred in the UK. Never mind how do I consider immigration requirements for somewhere (if one is harder to obtain than the other then that poses some questions).
With that said I can go legal, however I will note there are some incredibly fuzzy edges.

Going further most borders today are more or less "world war 2 ended", "this empire lark is done", "lines on a map, never mind I have never been there and know so very little about it". Even where there was some clue then historically things may have waxed and waned, ebbed and flowed as disease, famine, tech... dictated.

Recently I have been watching videos from the following guy
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1vVNQN-TCy8d3Mb_Owr2Kw/videos?disable_polymer=1
Absolutely fascinating series of videos there. His approaches to such things work well for me.

"Race is not something changeable by the person that belongs to the race. They will most always belong to that race."
Leaving aside debates over other things there are some things (very possibly we will see them within our lifetimes) which look like they might be able to alter genetics of a full grown animal.

In day to day life. My general test of choice is "does it matter if I should meet such a person on the street" and overwhelmingly the latter two do not matter for most pursuits intellectual and ethical, and as such it is going to be tricky to base anything on that and thus very silly should you be aspire towards rationality. Useful visual identifiers at times and anybody trying to shame someone for using them as such had better bring ammo. If I am being a medic I am less likely to assume skin cancer in the case of someone as black as the ace of spades.
Pride is best had in something one had a notable hand in. Assuming you are not a time traveller you probably did not create/guide/mould a race or ethnicity.

"African-American"
Still wish I could find that news clip of some athletics contest where the newscaster asked a black guy from the UK "what is it like growing up as an African American in the UK?".

On related concepts.
The "only the dominant culture* can be ?ist" I see some people float from time to time is utter bollocks of the highest order. Said culture, and possibly institution, may be an aggravating factor in how it is dealt with but for the day to day use it has no impact.
Religion =/= race as far as being able to call someone racist goes. Religion is something one theoretically makes a choice about believing in, or at least I see no evidence one is born with a predisposition for a religion. Feels silly even having to mention that but oh well.

*another term we get to throw into this I guess.

"It's important to speak your own language correctly and to know the history of your own country to avoid making the same mistakes"
That is a concept fraught with difficulty, and that is before you find countries with independence movements, multiple languages and such.

If I am going to do a possibly controversial statement.
Some of these are things you can pick yourself, though there are clearly wrong answers.

Post so song


and comedy video while I am at it


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## Whole lotta love (Jan 18, 2018)

blujay said:


> I sincerely hope this is sarcasm because what controls skin color (the primary identifier of race)? DNA. The whole thing that makes humans different from each other is DNA.





Noctosphere said:


> actually yes



What is the genetic marker that differentiates a white cuban from an italian american?


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## Deleted User (Jan 18, 2018)

Whole lotta love said:


> What is the genetic marker that differentiates a white cuban from an italian american?


There is no marker. However, you are indefinitely confusing race with ethnicity.


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## Whole lotta love (Jan 18, 2018)

blujay said:


> There is no marker. However, you are indefinitely confusing race with ethnicity.



My apologies for not being completely precise.

What is the genetic marker that differentiates a light skinned hispanic (such as a white cuban) to a white person? (such as an italian american)


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## Deleted User (Jan 18, 2018)

Whole lotta love said:


> My apologies for not being completely precise.
> 
> What is the genetic marker that differentiates a light skinned hispanic (such as a white cuban) to a white person?


Chromosome 15: DNA Sequence SLC24A5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLC24A5


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## Whole lotta love (Jan 18, 2018)

blujay said:


> Chromosome 15: DNA Sequence SLC24A5
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLC24A5



So the only difference between races is skin pigmentation?


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## Deleted User (Jan 18, 2018)

Whole lotta love said:


> So the only difference between races is skin pigmentation?


Skin pigmentation is the most common form of differentiating between races; however, not the only one. When Adolf Hitler was deciding on his "Aryan Race" he chose White, Blond haired, and Blue eyed individuals.


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## Noctosphere (Jan 18, 2018)

Whole lotta love said:


> So the only difference between races is skin pigmentation?


well, in NCIS (which is actual police and not some kind of police coming from the future, they are using today's technologies) they could make a profile out from a drop of blood
They could determinate the owner is part of which of those 3 groups
caucasian, negroique and asiatique


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## Whole lotta love (Jan 18, 2018)

blujay said:


> Skin pigmentation is the most common form of differentiating between races; however, not the only one. When Adolf Hitler was deciding on his "Aryan Race" he chose White, Blond haired, and Blue eyed individuals.


This is exactly my point. There is no universal consensus on what constitutes each race, and that definition is constantly changing. Again, the Irish, Germans, Italians, etc. only relatively recently became white people. Skin pigmentation would be able to differentiate between a white Vuban and an Italian American in many cases. There are Hispanics with lighter skin than Europeans, so having light skin is not intrinsic to being white. 

Also, SLC24A5 can be used to differentiate between South Asian people (as shown in the link you yourself provided) so it is not a reliable marker for racial differences. You would not be able to use that market to differentiate between a South Indian man and a white British woman.

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Noctosphere said:


> well, in NCIS (which is actual police and not some kind of police coming from the future, they are using today's technologies) they could make a profile out from a drop of blood
> They could determinate the owner is part of which of those 3 groups
> caucasian, negroique and asiatique



These tests essentially amount to a very good guess.
There are certain alleles that are more common in some populations than others, but it is never 100%.

My point is that there is nothing intrinsic to white people in the DNA. All of the biomarkers can be found in people of other races.


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## dAVID_ (Jan 18, 2018)

The problem is, that if you're not used to, say, people from Asia, you'll act weird even though you have no problem with them.
This happens to my mom a lot.
Regarding the "is race the same as ethnicity" debacle, a quick search in the dictionary can solve that question.
But no, races are not solely determined by skin pigmentation. For example, black men tend
to possess a bulkier body structure, however, they share the same organs, anatomy, etc.
This means that the gene that makes bulky body structures, is more dominant on black men, rather than white men. Why? That knowledge surpasses me.


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## Whole lotta love (Jan 18, 2018)

dAVID_ said:


> The problem is, that if you're not used to, say, people from Asia, you'll act weird even though you have no problem with them.
> This happens to my mom a lot.
> Regarding the "is race the same as ethnicity" debacle, a quick search in the dictionary can solve that question.
> But no, races are not solely determined by skin pigmentation. For example, black men tend
> ...



And those genes can be found in white men so they are not intrinsic to being black.


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