# Nintendo and friends win $1Million in damages against R4 carts



## T-hug (Jul 9, 2013)

Today Nintendo, along with 50 other Japanese game companies including Konami, Capcom, Square Enix, Level-5 and Bandai Namco have won $944, 921 in damages from 2 Tokyo based R4 sellers.
Last year it was made illegal to import R4 cards in Japan.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/corporate/release/2013/130709.html


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## Foxi4 (Jul 9, 2013)

R4's are the DS equivalent of CD/DVD/BR-R's, even less - they're merely adapters for rewritable storage. I find it odd that any court that has any understanding of technology would think that they cause any damage and that they could be made illegal. It's the end user's choice to use them for piracy - the carts themselves are in no way harmful just like blank discs aren't.


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## xist (Jul 9, 2013)

The question is whether the companies who've lost have any available cash to pay up (unlikely - I'd guess it's sequestered away) or if it's just to force bankruptcy. In which case they'll probably just change names and spring up again doing a similar but tactfully rebranded thing...


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## BrightNeko (Jul 9, 2013)

You know due to the topic title I really just wanna draw a title card for an animated show. "Nintendo and friends" with all the companies various main stays. >_>

Oh hey they won money? cool.


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## Blaze163 (Jul 9, 2013)

That doesn't sound like a whole lot, in all fairness. Considering how much money people DON'T pay to these companies as soon as they get one of these cards. You get a decent memory card, maybe 4GB on average, you can fit a good 30-40 games on there, each losing one of those companies £30 or so. And that's from one card. Can't help but feel that they've been given some paltry token payment to keep them quiet. A victory for public relations since they 'struck a blow in the war against piracy' but it surely doesn't come close to making up for the damages caused.


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## Ethevion (Jul 9, 2013)

Did each company get that much money, or all the companies combined?


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## Gahars (Jul 9, 2013)

I felt a great disturbance in the R-Force, as if millions of flash carts cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.


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## orcid (Jul 9, 2013)

Blaze163 said:


> That doesn't sound like a whole lot, in all fairness.


It is not against the manufacturer. It is only against two sellers from Tokyo. So it is quite a lot.


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## Blaze163 (Jul 9, 2013)

orcid said:


> It is not against the manufacturer. It is only against two sellers from Tokyo. So it is quite a lot.


 

If we're talking two guys running a little shop out of their basement or something, then that's fair enough.


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## shakirmoledina (Jul 9, 2013)

at this rate, supercard shall be sued 10 years from now

but why only r4 and not others? it seems to be a message that nintendo and co. wants to send

and hence CFW > hardware backup devices


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## BORTZ (Jul 9, 2013)

R.I.P. R4... Ill never forget you.


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## evandixon (Jul 9, 2013)

R4 died a long time ago.  All the R4s out now are simply clones.
Just saying.


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## Minox (Jul 9, 2013)

shakirmoledina said:


> but why only r4 and not others? it seems to be a message that nintendo and co. wants to send


They mention nothing about R4s in the original article, but rather マジコン(majikon) devices which is more or less the Japanese word for a flashcart. However, due to the widespread publicity the R4 has gotten articles usually refers to all flashcarts as 'R4s' even though a whole bunch of other devices might be involved.


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## TwilightWarrior (Jul 9, 2013)

UniqueGeek said:


> R4 died a long time ago. All the R4s out now are simply clones.
> Just saying.


 

Naw, man they just realeased the new rts one like 3 months ago and its the official one


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## Hanafuda (Jul 9, 2013)

orcid said:


> *It is not against the manufacturer. It is only against two sellers from Tokyo.* So it is quite a lot.


 

Quoted because it seems most people replying here didn't get this -- it's just a couple businesses in Tokyo that were selling flashcarts that got crushed. Selling flashcarts in Japan is like going to a police station to see if they'd like to buy some stolen televisions.


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## Tattorack (Jul 9, 2013)

Great, the link given is totally in Japanese =_=


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## Chaossaturn (Jul 9, 2013)

This is bullshit, if someone buys a knife and kills someone, the seller don't get sued (if the person is of legal age to buy knife). If someone sells a R4 and the purchaser use it to pirate, the seller gets sued...


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## FAST6191 (Jul 9, 2013)

Chaossaturn said:


> This is bullshit, if someone buys a knife and kills someone, the seller don't get sued (if the person is of legal age to buy knife). If someone sells a R4 and the purchaser use it to pirate, the seller gets sued...



Depends actually. Also as you can legally purchase a knife (give or take various restrictions) and the import, creation, sale, possibly use and export of R4 type devices was banned in Japan it would happen that being sued/fined is the order of the day.


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## Ziggy Zigzagoon (Jul 9, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> R4's are the DS equivalent of CD/DVD/BR-R's, even less - they're merely adapters for rewritable storage. I find it odd that any court that has any understanding of technology would think that they cause any damage and that they could be made illegal. It's the end user's choice to use them for piracy - the carts themselves are in no way harmful just like blank discs aren't.


The interesting thing is that I remember _The 10 Commandments_ winning a lawsuit against VHS in damages because those who can watch _The 10 Commandments_ at any time instead of (I think) once a year would not bother to watch the commericals that coincide with the official screening, thus losing profits.
*Errata: The reverse happened. Sony got the right to sell blank videocasettes.*



orcid said:


> It is not against the manufacturer. It is only against two sellers from Tokyo. So it is quite a lot.


I think this is due to the two vendors having to pay less than one thousand dollars each (due to the way the leas post is written).


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## reprep (Jul 9, 2013)

get your dstwo. now. or better get all the flash cards you want now. it might be too late later.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 9, 2013)

Ziggy Zigzagoon said:


> The interesting thing is that I remember _The 10 Commandments_ winning a lawsuit against VHS in damages because those who can watch _The 10 Commandments_ at any time instead of (I think) once a year would not bother to watch the commericals that coincide with the official screening, thus losing profits.


 
I remember the exact opposite.

If there was a way to legally digitalize the content along the lines of Sony's UMD Passport _(which unfortunately only worked in Japan and for a limited time)_ then this crusade would be entirely justified, but this is not the case. As it stands today, flashcarts have a primary non-infringing use and the fact that they are mostly used for piracy is irrelevant because piracy is a crime committed by an individual, not by some evil criminal mastermind somewhere in China who plots to destroy Nintendo or game developers, they merely supply the market with a product that's in high demand and what the end user does with it is really none of their concern, much like a disc writer manufacturer isn't concerned with the fact that their hardware might be used for burning illegitimate copies of media.

Going along Nintendo's line of logic, we should ban TiVo boxes because they record footage, even if only for the sake of fast forwarding or rewinding. While we're at it, let's ban cameras altogether because those too can be used for camrips, no matter what anti-piracy protection is used. Hell, we should heavily restrict the Internet - the primary source of all pirated content in the world.

If you want to take the fight somewhere, take it to the individual committing the crime, not the manufacturer of the hardware used. When someone gets stabbed, nobody's going to sue the company which made the knife used in the murder because _that's stupid_. When a car accident occurs due to the driver's negligence, nobody's going to sue the car manufacturer because _it's the driver who's at fault_.

Banning hardware does not solve the problem - it merely strips legitimate users of their statutory right for making and using a backup. Nintendo is not harming illegitimate users because illegitimate users _don't buy software_ for the most part. You're not _"losing a sale"_ when said sale would not occur in the first place, no matter how you slice the cake.


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## Magsor (Jul 9, 2013)

reprep said:


> get your dstwo. now. or better get all the flash cards you want now. it might be too late later.


Huh... no. Flash cards are legal. At least here in Canada.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 9, 2013)

Magsor said:


> Huh... no. Flash cards are legal. At least here in Canada.


 
They've been made illegal in several countries which is baffling but true.


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## The Catboy (Jul 9, 2013)

I think it's a bit late for them to have done this since flashcards are pretty much dead now for the DS scene and people are now working on 3DS flashcards.
If they were trying to send a message, the only message I get out of this is, make tons of money on your flashcard in the first couple of years, disband, and let the retailers suffer the lawsuits. Nintendo should be more focused on the current 3DS flashcards in the makes and find away to deal with them before the cards become as widespread and userfriendly like ds flashcards did.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 9, 2013)

The Catboy said:


> I think it's a bit late for them to have done this since flashcards are pretty much dead now for the DS scene and people are now working on 3DS flashcards.
> If they were trying to send a message, the only message I get out of this is, make tons of money on your flashcard in the first couple of years, disband, and let the retailers suffer the lawsuits. Nintendo should be more focused on the current 3DS flashcards in the makes and find away to deal with them before the cards become as widespread and userfriendly like ds flashcards did.


 
No Catboy, that's just silly - that would require actual _work_, like, thinking of security updates and future revisions with corrected hardware vulnerabilities... Introducing fear tactics so that flashcarts are a merchandise hotter than crack cocaine and illegal even in Las Vegas so that nobody wants to touch them fearing death penalty is so much better. _;O;_


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## Saturosias (Jul 9, 2013)

Blaze163 said:


> you can fit a good 30-40 games on there, _*each losing one of those companies £30 or so*_


lol


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## Blaze163 (Jul 9, 2013)

Saturosias said:


> lol


 

Average price of a brand new game is around £30 here. Hence with every ROM you put on an R4 card, the creators are effectively £30 out of pocket. Sorry, should have worded it better. Bit distracted today.


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## Rydian (Jul 9, 2013)

Blaze163 said:


> Average price of a brand new game is around £30 here. Hence with every ROM you put on an R4 card, the creators are effectively £30 out of pocket. Sorry, should have worded it better. Bit distracted today.


That's a common lie, don't fall for it.
Piracy: Common Myths


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## Extremist (Jul 9, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> R4's are the DS equivalent of CD/DVD/BR-R's, even less - they're merely adapters for rewritable storage. I find it odd that any court that has any understanding of technology would think that they cause any damage and that they could be made illegal. It's the end user's choice to use them for piracy - the carts themselves are in no way harmful just like blank discs aren't.


 
It's the same stupid excuse that don't work for torrent-sites either. Even though the product itself CAN be used for legal activities, it's clearly aimed at pirating. If they want to get away with the homebrew etc. approach, they have to include AP in the flashcards. But they won't as we all know they're mainly made for pirating. And facilitating law-breaking like this is considered illegal in more and more countries.

And yeah, it's not much money - I think Nintendo etc just want to make examples of this - scaring re-sellers away from future cards by going after them instead of the manufacturers.

Oh, and BTW - I'm not anti-flashcards/-mods. But I wish the 3DS and WiiU will stay free from them until they (hopefully) become success-stories for Nintendo...


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## Rydian (Jul 9, 2013)

Extremist said:


> It's the same stupid excuse that don't work for torrent-sites either. Even though the product itself CAN be used for legal activities, it's clearly aimed at pirating.


Nnnnno.  Torrent sites don't get hit for dealing in torrents themselves (which are entirely legal and even used but Linux distro sites and popular games like WoW to distribute their update files), torrent sites get hit for the content itself being shared, not the tech being distributed.

They're not being hit for distributing torrent clients and the protocol, they're hit for copyright infringement.


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## Qtis (Jul 9, 2013)

Blaze163 said:


> Average price of a brand new game is around £30 here. Hence with every ROM you put on an R4 card, the creators are effectively £30 out of pocket. Sorry, should have worded it better. Bit distracted today.


Not to go on what Rydian said, but you have to note that selling games for the RRP is a lot more than a few years after that. Sure you can find launch games for the RRP even now, but games can go for dirt cheap too. For example, I bought a 360 a few months ago. I've currently got a game collection of 30-40 games and I've paid only about 250 EUR for them (guestimate, as most games weren't even 10 EUR, and the total includes shipping). This also includes major titles like Halo, Gears of War, etc. Sure I could have modded the console for a few € and pirated all the games (no profit for anyone in terms of game sales), but I'm quite satisfied now. I didn't pay anywhere near £30 per game, which would equal to around £1000 (360 games are £40+ I guess at launch?).

As for the news itself, it's kinda moot. If someone didn't know yet, this could be just as well compared to selling weed in the middle of New York in a small shop. Do people do it? No. Why? Because it's just plain stupid. When the selling of flashcarts (R4s in the media as stated before) was made illegal, the shops should have closed down, well at least the storefronts.


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## Blaze163 (Jul 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> That's a common lie, don't fall for it.
> Piracy: Common Myths


 

I'd hardly say they're 'completely unaffected' by people pirating a game. As a result of that game being downloaded, they did not make a sale, thus did not earn the £30 or so they may well have gotten had piracy been impossible. Case and point, right now as far as I'm aware it's impossible to effectively pirate 3DS games. I therefore buy myself a new one every few weeks when I have the cash to spare. If it becomes possible to download them, I may well cease to pay out every few weeks, ergo any money I would usually have spent on those games has been lost.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 9, 2013)

Extremist said:


> It's the same stupid excuse that don't work for torrent-sites either. Even though the product itself CAN be used for legal activities, it's clearly aimed at pirating. If they want to get away with the homebrew etc. approach, they have to include AP in the flashcards. But they won't as we all know they're mainly made for pirating. And facilitating law-breaking like this is considered illegal in more and more countries.
> 
> And yeah, it's not much money - I think Nintendo etc just want to make examples of this - scaring re-sellers away from future cards by going after them instead of the manufacturers.
> 
> Oh, and BTW - I'm not anti-flashcards/-mods. But I wish the 3DS and WiiU will stay free from them until they (hopefully) become success-stories for Nintendo...


 
AP measures on flashcarts is there to enable launching _backups_ which is what the carts are for. By your logic, selling disc burners is facilitating law-breaking and should be considered a crime because a burner can be used to make a backup copy. Additionally selling spoons should be made illegal because it facilitates potential murder by spoon. Don't be ridiculous.

It's the end user who chooses to commit a crime/felony, the flashcart itself doesn't whisper into the user's ear and tells him to pirate ROM's. If you want to chase someone for a given crime, chase the perpetrator.


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## Qtis (Jul 9, 2013)

Rydian said:


> They're not being hit for distributing torrent clients and the protocol, they're hit for copyright infringement.


Indeed, many legal software companies work with BitTorrent technology. Even companies very much entwined with the music business. Even in the US, where copyright law is more strict than many other places. The best example would be Spotify, which is basically a BitTorrent client dedicated to streaming audio.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 9, 2013)

Qtis said:


> Indeed, many legal software companies work with BitTorrent technology. Even companies very much entwined with the music business. Even in the US, where copyright law is more strict than many other places. The best example would be Spotify, which is basically a BitTorrent client dedicated to streaming audio.


 
TCP/IP should totally be made illegal - the Internet is just full of infringing content. Let's close the lid on it and completely disregard potential legal uses of the protocol because a large portion of its users use it for illegal activities.

After all, it's the Internet's fault that people download illegal content, not the user's who deliberately and consciously choose to download it.

Because logic.


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## Rydian (Jul 9, 2013)

Blaze163 said:


> I'd hardly say they're 'completely unaffected' by people pirating a game. As a result of that game being downloaded, they did not make a sale, thus did not earn the £30 or so they may well have gotten had piracy been impossible. Case and point, right now as far as I'm aware it's impossible to effectively pirate 3DS games. I therefore buy myself a new one every few weeks when I have the cash to spare. If it becomes possible to download them, I may well cease to pay out every few weeks, ergo any money I would usually have spent on those games has been lost.


A lack of getting something is not a loss, though.

Somebody considered giving me $10 but decides against it.  BRB suing them for making me lose $10.
Some chick gives another guy a blowjob instead of me?  BRB suing for "lost blowjob".


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## FAST6191 (Jul 9, 2013)

Blaze163 said:


> Average price of a brand new game is around £30 here. Hence with every ROM you put on an R4 card, the creators are effectively £30 out of pocket. Sorry, should have worded it better. Bit distracted today.



I see you are a practicer of copyright math


The problems with your logic are
Not everything is a lost sale ("I would not have purchased it anyway" and such like)
The whole £30 does not end up in the pocket of the dev/publisher
Game prices decrease with time

The "it is only a copy -- you are not down stock or anything" is possible to make.

It cuts the other way as well
More people online is typically a good thing (want a good online community and all that)
Buzz around your game is something most try very hard to cultivate such a thing.


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## tbgtbg (Jul 9, 2013)

xist said:


> The question is whether the companies who've lost have any available cash to pay up (unlikely - I'd guess it's sequestered away) or if it's just to force bankruptcy. In which case they'll probably just change names and spring up again doing a similar but tactfully rebranded thing...



Yeah, I'd be shocked if any of the companies actually wound up getting a dime from this suit. And on the off hand chance they do manage to recover any funds, they'll just get taken by the lawyers anyway. The lawyers get paid first, always.


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## Ericthegreat (Jul 9, 2013)

This is fucked up, unless they were selling roms there was no way to prove they were used for piracy, all nintendo did was hurt a simple reseller, and not the source at all. I'm sure the carts are still sold on the street nintendo prob just targeted them cause they prob had a shop....


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## FAST6191 (Jul 9, 2013)

Ericthegreat said:


> This is fucked up, unless they were selling roms there was no way to prove they were used for piracy, all nintendo did was hurt a simple reseller, and not the source at all. I'm sure the carts are still sold on the street nintendo prob just targeted them cause they prob had a shop....



Depends. Stopping things is impossible and everybody knows it -- for one it is not like any of the flash cart makers fabricate their own ICs after all. To say nothing of customs (both in person and in mail) not caring quite so much.

However if you can make it as hard as possible for the average person to get one then it works in your favour and is probably what you want to do anyway. Something that they can purchase in person and with case definitely appeals to said average person as well.

As for the ROM stuff they already argued for and got the relevant court ruling that allows them to clamp down on such things.


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## McHaggis (Jul 10, 2013)

Rydian said:


> A lack of getting something is not a loss, though.
> 
> Somebody considered giving me $10 but decides against it.  BRB suing for making me lose $10.
> Some chick gives another guy a blowjob instead of me?  BRB suing for "lost blowjob".


If only... I'd be so rich right now. 

The fact of the matter is that they're banned in those countries and with good reason. They're banned because the majority use is for piracy, just like guns are banned in some countries because the majority use is for criminal activity.  It doesn't compare to DVD/CD, which have a legitimate business purpose and are/were a requirement in the industry.  It's not a fair comparison.  Don't get me wrong, I think consumers should have the right to backup and use backups, but courts are entirely justified in banning a product whose primary function facilitates and encourages a criminal act.

Going after the individual makes no sense; the damages are much less (and difficult to calculate) and costs make it an impractical method of combating piracy.

Also, whoever thinks publishers lose anywhere near RRP on a game is smoking something.   You're forgetting the cuts taken by the retailer, the licensor, tax/duty, etc.  None of those things apply to a pirated game.


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## aaronz77 (Jul 10, 2013)

This might have had a valid argument that the r4 was only a micro sd (TF) adapter. Until you see the sellers website explaining how to install the firmware, where to put the roms etc..  How can you possibly argue this case without that being thrown in your face. I'd hate to be THAT lawyer. In the future you'll still see sales of r4 (and clones) I just think the firmware and homebrew will be more difficult to hunt down. So what if a noob can't figure it out. right??!!


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## stanleyopar2000 (Jul 10, 2013)

Nintendo is STILL anal about the R4?..bitch please...it's all about the DSTWO now  

these are the same people though who gave me a fucking copyright strike for making a tutorial on how to change your Acekard GUI to DSCOVERED [and implied NO illegal activities in the video]


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## jonesman99 (Jul 10, 2013)

Gahars said:


> I felt a great disturbance in the R-Force, as if millions of flash carts cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.


 
The "Silence of the Clones", perhaps?


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## FireGrey (Jul 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> R4's are the DS equivalent of CD/DVD/BR-R's, even less - they're merely adapters for rewritable storage. I find it odd that any court that has any understanding of technology would think that they cause any damage and that they could be made illegal. It's the end user's choice to use them for piracy - the carts themselves are in no way harmful just like blank discs aren't.


 
It's pretty ignorant to say they aren't for anything other than piracy or running unauthorized content.


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## Jayro (Jul 10, 2013)

Tattorack said:


> Great, the link given is totally in Japanese =_=


 
So? Chrome translates it for you automatically, so why would that matter?


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## Yepi69 (Jul 10, 2013)

Flashcards work depending on the user, so don't blame the flashcards but the user.


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## Amber Lamps (Jul 10, 2013)

xist said:


> The question is whether the companies who've lost have any available cash to pay up (unlikely - I'd guess it's sequestered away) or if it's just to force bankruptcy. In which case they'll probably just change names and spring up again doing a similar but tactfully rebranded thing...


 
Circumvention of copy protection.  A device which disables or bypasses in some way copy protection mechanisms within a device.  Direct violation of the United States DMCA.  Which is why generally you won't find many people reselling these in the USA.  Those that do are taking great risks.

Sure I know we're talking about Japan but that is just my example.  Plus Japan is more or less based on the USA's production/laws/treaties/etc because we built Japan no doubt.


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## Kippykip (Jul 10, 2013)

I hope the DSTwo isn't next!


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## Rydian (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> It's pretty ignorant to say they aren't for anything other than piracy or running unauthorized content.


It's pretty ignorant to speak as if homebrew didn't exist, and to be a GBATemp member for this long and not be aware of the DS homebrew scene, and the fact that GBATemp actually ran competitions with cash and object prizes for creating DS homebrew every so often.

http://gbatemp.net/forums/homebrew-bounty-entries.180/

Like seriously, you might want to get your long-term memory looked at, because it needs an RMA.


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## McHaggis (Jul 10, 2013)

Kippykip said:


> I hope the DSTwo isn't next!


 
It was the retailers that were targeted, not the R4 manufacturer.  They were probably busted for selling DSTwos and other cards too.  People just use R4 as a synonym for flashcard these days.


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## FireGrey (Jul 10, 2013)

Rydian said:


> It's pretty ignorant to speak as if homebrew didn't exist, and to be a GBATemp member for this long and not be aware of the DS homebrew scene, and the fact that GBATemp actually ran competitions with cash and object prizes for creating DS homebrew every so often.
> 
> http://gbatemp.net/forums/homebrew-bounty-entries.180/
> 
> Like seriously, you might want to get your long-term memory looked at, because it needs an RMA.


 
I highly doubt that anyone has gotten an R4 for only non-emulator homebrew.
And even so, homebrew is running unauthorized content.


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## Rydian (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> I highly doubt that anyone has gotten an R4 for only non-emulator homebrew.


Sorry, but not everybody shares your stance.  There are people that have done it.

Besides, that's not what you originally posted.   You doubted that people did anything else, which is obviously wrong.



FireGrey said:


> And even so, homebrew is running unauthorized content.


... *so*?

If I write a "hello world" program in C++ on my PC, that's not an authorized program.

*The preferences of a company do not dictate laws or morals.*


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## FireGrey (Jul 10, 2013)

Rydian said:


> Sorry, but not everybody shares your stance. There are people that have done it.
> 
> Besides, that's not what you originally posted.  You doubted that people did anything else, which is obviously wrong.
> 
> ...


 
The DS was sold in the knowledge of Nintendo having to authorize everything that is run on the system.
The DS isn't meant to be running content not authorized by Nintendo, that's why they are justified in taking legal action.


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## McHaggis (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> The DS was sold in the knowledge of Nintendo having to authorize everything that is run on the system.
> The DS isn't meant to be running content not authorized by Nintendo, that's why they are justified in taking legal action.


 
Wrong. They can't take legal action for running unlicensed content. That's neither a civil nor criminal matter. They don't even try and forbid unlicensed content in EULAs, all they do is say that it will void warranty and may cause irreparable damage. Do you seriously think everyone buying a DS would know how the video game industry works? They wouldn't know the difference between licensed and unlicensed software if they were sold next to each other on the shelves. Unlicensed software has been around on consoles for years, some of it sold on shelves in bricks and mortar retail shops. Nobody tried to take those retailers to court (although Nintendo once tried taking Galoob to court for unlicensed software, and _failed_).

Nintendo was justified in taking legal action because those retailers were facilitating piracy. There's no existence of unauthorised software on video game consoles because authority lies with the owner of the hardware, not the company who manufactured it. Unauthorised software would be software that was installed or run without the owner's permission.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> The DS was sold in the knowledge of Nintendo having to authorize everything that is run on the system.
> The DS isn't meant to be running content not authorized by Nintendo, that's why they are justified in taking legal action.



What McHaggis said and though it is a US ruling it was quite an important legal ruling (sega vs accolade) that dismissed that line of logic
http://digital-law-online.info/cases/24PQ2D1561.htm


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## Foxi4 (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> The DS was sold in the knowledge of Nintendo having to authorize everything that is run on the system.
> The DS isn't meant to be running content not authorized by Nintendo, that's why they are justified in taking legal action.


 
Nintendo can't tell you what you can and can't do with a console that you _own_. If you feel like using it as a doorstep, you're entitled to do that too - after the transaction of buying the product Nintendo is no longer entitled to make any claims. Nintendo is in no way justified in taking any legal action whatsoever, no matter how you use your system.


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## McHaggis (Jul 10, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> What McHaggis said and though it is a US ruling it was quite an important legal ruling (sega vs accolade) that dismissed that line of logic
> http://digital-law-online.info/cases/24PQ2D1561.htm


 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade for dummies


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## Foxi4 (Jul 10, 2013)

McHaggis said:


> The fact of the matter is that they're banned in those countries and with good reason. They're banned because the majority use is for piracy, just like guns are banned in some countries because the majority use is for criminal activity.


That's a very bold statement. I'm sure all the gangs, drug cartels and criminals generally have their guns registered and don't obtain them in an illegal fashion at all.


> It doesn't compare to DVD/CD, which have a legitimate business purpose and are/were a requirement in the industry.


Because nobody has ever used a flashcart to listen to music, use an organizer or watch video clips that they legally own.


> It's not a fair comparison.


I don't see how comparing rewrittable storage to rewrittable storage is in any way unfair.


> Don't get me wrong, I think consumers should have the right to backup and use backups, but courts are entirely justified in banning a product whose primary function facilitates and encourages a criminal act.


Then DVD's and CD's should be banned as well as those too are used in making illegal copies - of DVD's and CD's.



> Going after the individual makes no sense;


But it's the individual who committed the felony/crime - why would you _not_ do that?


> the damages are much less (and difficult to calculate) and costs make it an impractical method of combating piracy.


So what if it's impractical and the damages are small? It's merely unmasking how little impact piracy _actually has _on the industry. Again, in the case of a stabbing, I'm sure that chasing the company that made the knife is much more practical, but they're still not responsible for someone who stabbed another person with their knife. You don't chase the knife manufacturer, you chase the criminal.



> Also, whoever thinks publishers lose anywhere near RRP on a game is smoking something. You're forgetting the cuts taken by the retailer, the licensor, tax/duty, etc. None of those things apply to a pirated game.


...and none of those things in any way harm the developers who actually made the games.



aaronz77 said:


> This might have had a valid argument that the r4 was only a micro sd (TF) adapter. Until you see the sellers website explaining how to install the firmware, where to put the roms etc.. How can you possibly argue this case without that being thrown in your face. I'd hate to be THAT lawyer. In the future you'll still see sales of r4 (and clones) I just think the firmware and homebrew will be more difficult to hunt down. So what if a noob can't figure it out. right??!!


Seeing that users have a right to backup their software, I don't see anything unreasonable in telling them how to do it and subsequently how to use the backup.


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## FireGrey (Jul 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Nintendo can't tell you what you can and can't do with a console that you _own_. If you feel like using it as a doorstep, you're entitled to do that too - after the transaction of buying the product Nintendo is no longer entitled to make any claims. Nintendo is in no way justified in taking any legal action whatsoever, no matter how you use your system.


 
This isn't a lawsuit for using an R4, this is for selling it. If they were suing someone for using an R4 that would be different but this is for distributing R4s.
What's the difference between creating a system update to block use of them than to cut off the distributors?


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## chartube12 (Jul 10, 2013)

"It is often easier to ask for forgiveness then it is for permission" In the case of flash card distributors, Nintendo's reply is to GTH. While their reply to the 3DS user base in general is, "nice try we'll just block your unlicensed storage media in an update. As a bonus we have thrown in digital copies for sale on the 3ds, so those claiming the storage media saves them carrying multiple game cards lose an excuse. We'll only provide the games in digital form we and our partners believe to be higher popular IPs however"


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## Chocolina (Jul 10, 2013)

"We don't condone piracy and advise against it, but here are all the future updates, guides, and tools to always ensure you'll be able to do just that"


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## Schizoanalysis (Jul 10, 2013)

That's some news.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> This isn't a lawsuit for using an R4, this is for selling it. If they were suing someone for using an R4 that would be different but this is for distributing R4s.
> What's the difference between creating a system update to block use of them than to cut off the distributors?


You missed my point, I wasn't talking about this particular lawsuit, I was talking about the ridiculousness of delegalizing flashcarts as a medium in general.


Chocolina said:


> "We don't condone piracy and advise against it, but here are all the future updates, guides, and tools to always ensure you'll be able to do just that"


Backup copy =/= Pirate copy. The carts are for launching backed up content - what _you_ do with them is _your_ business and _your_ choice.


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## FireGrey (Jul 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> You missed my point, I wasn't talking about this particular lawsuit, I was talking about the ridiculousness of delegalizing flashcarts as a medium in general.
> 
> Backup copy =/= Pirate copy. The carts are for launching backed up content - what _you_ do with them is _your_ business and _your_ choice.


 
Backup copy is just an excuse people use for legal justifications.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> Backup copy is just an excuse people use for legal justifications.


 
That doesn't make it in any way illegitimate. You're entitled to have one so naturally you require a method of launching it.


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## FireGrey (Jul 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> That doesn't make it in any way illegitimate. You're entitled to have one so naturally you require a method of launching it.


 
But you buy ONE copy of the game, not unlimited.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> But you buy ONE copy of the game, not unlimited.


That's not true. You buy the _license_ to use one _(or more if it's a group license) _copy of a given piece of software at any given time. You can have as many backup copies of it as you feel like, you just can't share them or simultaneously use more than one.

You're entirely entitled to back it up as many times as you want, in fact, you feel like it, you can build a castle out of your backup copies - it doesn't matter as long as you're only using one copy at any given time and you're not sharing your copy with anyone.

Software isn't a tangible object - it's just data. You can replicate it as many times as you want.

Going by your logic, if I buy a CD of my favourite band, rip it, put the MP3's on my MP3 player and then put the CD back in its case and on the shelf _for the sake of preserving it_, I'm pirating music. Naturally this is not the case _(and yes, I know there are groups which lobby that it is in order to ask for money twice for the same goods)._ To play this backup, I need a piece of hardware - an MP3 player. Simple.

Now, naturally music isn't software, but it's the closest analogy you could ask for, really.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 10, 2013)

FireGrey said:


> But you buy ONE copy of the game, not unlimited.


That is an incredibly complex issue and not one that you can make such a ruling as it were on. Suffice it to say format shifting, time shifting and personal use adaptive reworking, concepts which share a great deal in common with things in this instance, have been ruled legal. http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/464_US_417.htm being a good example of one of them.

It may or may not be problematic to run multiple copies at once but that is a different matter.


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## LightyKD (Jul 10, 2013)

$944,921 REALLY?! Why not just go ahead and sue for 1 million. They're already up there. Why settle for such a funky amount  . Silly game publishers...


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## McHaggis (Jul 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> That's a very bold statement. I'm sure all the gangs, drug cartels and criminals generally have their guns registered and don't obtain them in an illegal fashion at all.


Right.  Just like those of us in countries where flash cards are banned don't obtain them in an illegal fashion either.



> Because nobody has ever used a flashcart to listen to music, use an organizer or watch video clips that they legally own.


That's not the point, though, is it?  Flash cards don't have a legitimate business purpose, they don't represent a significant importance like CDs and DVDs did.



> I don't see how comparing rewrittable storage to rewrittable storage is in any way unfair.


But that's not what you're comparing.  They're banning a copyright circumvention device―many of which provide patches or updates to circumvent further copy protections in the actual game code―that may, or may not, have rewritable storage as an additional feature.  Most flash cards accept rewritable storage as a medium, but if you exclude the flashable bootloaders, not many of them include it.



> Then DVD's and CD's should be banned as well as those too are used in making illegal copies - of DVD's and CD's.


But like I said before, those items are (or were) invaluable to a much larger market across the world for legitimate purposes.  The number of people using a flash card for legitimate purposes is comparatively tiny.



> But it's the individual who committed the felony/crime - why would you _not_ do that?
> 
> So what if it's impractical and the damages are small? It's merely unmasking how little impact piracy _actually has _on the industry. Again, in the case of a stabbing, I'm sure that chasing the company that made the knife is much more practical, but they're still not responsible for someone who stabbed another person with their knife. You don't chase the knife manufacturer, you chase the criminal.
> 
> ...and none of those things in any way harm the developers who actually made the games.


Well, like I said it's not really feasible.  Nintendo can't sue Jim if Jim copied a game published by Capcom.  Capcom could, but the damages are technically minimal (much less than the RRP as I previously mentioned) and potentially nothing as you said before.  If Jim was selling or sharing the illegal copy then, yes, the damages would be more substantial.  Instead, though, it makes much more sense to go after those facilitating piracy than those committing it.

I'm not at all arguing the effect of piracy on the market.  If you want to use the case of stabbing, I think that if, tomorrow 100 websites popped up selling different types of dangerous knives, along with guides on how they can make them more effective at doing harm (sharpening vs firmware updates) and tutorials on where to stab people to do the most harm possible (vs tutorials on how to load retail games onto a card), then probably the justice system would try and do something about it.  When things become a problem, it's common for the law to step in and deal with it.



> Seeing that users have a right to backup their software, I don't see anything unreasonable in telling them how to do it and subsequently how to use the backup.


Except nobody is naive enough to think that they're selling R4 cards to angelic citizens who'd never do anything like pirate games.  Instead, all these retailers are fully aware that they're making money from facilitating piracy, making them almost as bad as bootleg distributors.  They know it, the games companies know it and the courts know it and that's how it can be justified that they're in the wrong.


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## ComeTurismO (Jul 10, 2013)

Well, we know who is crying at the moment..


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## Foxi4 (Jul 10, 2013)

McHaggis said:


> _*Stuff*_


 
On the subject of flashcarts as a storage medium/adapter, let's just agree to disagree since you can't really support your claims with any statistics. The issues of feasibility are not of legal concern - you can only punish a person who has committed a crime, meaning the pirate. Flashcart users in normal countries where flashcarts aren't banned can get away with them scot-free with purchasing them, and thank God for that.

Piracy is a choice made by the user and that's pretty much that. Obviously _"Angelic"_ users are not the target audience of flashcarts and yes, they are primarily used by pirates but that doesn't make them in any way illegitimate.

On the issue of patches, it's not entirely illegal and depends highly on the country we're talking about - where I live, the code of a program in question may be patched by the user _by any means necessary_ to launch it _on the platform of the user's choosing_, so yes, where I live cracks are entirely legal.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> Piracy is a choice made by the user and that's pretty much that. Obviously _"Angelic"_ users are not the target audience of flashcarts and yes, they are primarily used by pirates but that doesn't make them in any way illegitimate.



Though I wish it would happen more and happen more as a result of scientific decision making we have a great many laws and such like that work on the basis of probabilities, indeed among this we have phrases like "substantial noninfringing uses" and even coming the other way the idea of transformation where copyright itself plays out. To step back a bit there we might debate how that plays out here but the previous sentence does still carry some weight.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 10, 2013)

FAST6191 said:


> Though I wish it would happen more and happen more as a result of scientific decision making we have a great many laws and such like that work on the basis of probabilities, indeed among this we have phrases like "substantial noninfringing uses" and even coming the other way the idea of transformation where copyright itself plays out. To step back a bit there we might debate how that plays out here but the previous sentence does still carry some weight.


 
I see this issue similarily to the good old prase _"guns don't kill people, people kill people"_ - flashcarts don't pirate software, users pirate software.  If a VHS recorder connected to a TV which had only one primary function - recording movies screened on live TV and copying VHS tapes has _"substantial noninfringing uses"_ then so do flashcarts. I can't remember myself ever using a CD burner for something other than piracy and that says _a lot_.


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## McHaggis (Jul 10, 2013)

Foxi4 said:


> On the subject of flashcarts as a storage medium/adapter, let's just agree to disagree since you can't really support your claims with any statistics. The issues of feasibility are not of legal concern - you can only punish a person who has committed a crime, meaning the pirate. Flashcart users in normal countries where flashcarts aren't banned can get away with them scot-free with purchasing them, and thank God for that.
> 
> Piracy is a choice made by the user and that's pretty much that. Obviously _"Angelic"_ users are not the target audience of flashcarts and yes, they are primarily used by pirates but that doesn't make them in any way illegitimate.
> 
> On the issue of patches, it's not entirely illegal and depends highly on the country we're talking about - where I live, the code of a program in question may be patched by the user _by any means necessary_ to launch it _on the platform of the user's choosing_, so yes, where I live cracks are entirely legal.


 
I agree, piracy is a choice made by the user.  However, what makes flash cards illegitimate is laws made up to disallow the import, export and sale of those products and all I'm saying is that I think those laws are justified.  And that's coming from someone who also rarely used his CD burner (or his flash card, for that matter) for legitimate purposes.  While it may seem unfair, it's not uncommon to inconvenience the minority for the sake of dealing with the majority.  It's a case of many bad eggs (including me ) ruining it for you poor legitimate backuppers.

VHS and Betamax, again, had a _strong_ legitimate use; at one point it was the only medium for home camcorders and the vast majority of people used them for time shifting and not watching copied movies, for instance.  Companies did try and take action against them (see Sony vs Universal Studios).  If the majority use had been for illegitimate purposes, then I think things may have been different.

As you said, we differ in opinions here and that's not likely to change.  And that's OK with me, I'm the kind of person who enjoys a nice little debate with random people on/in the Internet/pub.


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## Tattorack (Jul 17, 2013)

JayRo said:


> So? Chrome translates it for you automatically, so why would that matter?


I don't have my own computer (yet) and have to do everything in a cyberbase where they force you to use IE 
I can't instal chrome because there are admin blocks not just with installing (otherwise I would've used a portable version) but also with launching!
ON TOP OF THAT, I've been warned with a permenant ban when I was trying to bypass the admin block >.<


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## Jayro (Jul 18, 2013)

So install Portable Chrome to a USB stick, and run it from there...


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