# Abortion



## VVoltz (May 11, 2008)

Do or don't?
Opinions?


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

Like most things that many people are against, there are always good reasons for it to happen ...


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## tinymonkeyt (May 11, 2008)

uhh both?
IMO
abortion is appropriate at times
and at other times, not so much
if, say, a 14 year old gets raped and becomes pregnant
having the baby will definitely ruin her life
abortion is the only option here
but if some bitch goes out having sex with every guy she meets (or something like that)
and she becomes pregnant (we'll assume she's strong and old enough to have one without hurting herself)
then thats a different story


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## chalupa (May 11, 2008)

Mr.fetus is innocent so, he lives.


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

chalupa said:
			
		

> Mr.fetus is innocent so, he lives.



Spoken like someone who'll never have to make the choice ...


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## distorted.freque (May 11, 2008)

Against because you're killing an innocent life.

For because if you don't have the money to support that person's life, it's the same as killing that person. 

Then again, this sounds a lot like mercy killing. I'm still ultimately against abortion because I believe that every person should get a chance to live, even if that person is going to suffer through the rest of his or her life. But only because there's always that tiny piece of hope that something good will happen to that person as well.


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## BoneMonkey (May 11, 2008)

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive

I'm against abortion, but for killing babies.


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## Panzer Tacticer (May 11, 2008)

Saw the topic, and yep, just another topic that never had a chance.

The only people that have an opinion are the father and pregnant woman. Everyone else doesn't count.


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## Sinkhead (May 11, 2008)

tinymonkeyt said:
			
		

> uhh both?
> IMO
> abortion is appropriate at times
> and at other times, not so much
> ...


This is also how I feel.


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## Jax (May 11, 2008)

*also agrees with tinymonkeyt*

We can't have women doing abortions like they go to the manicure!


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

_Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom, said he was in love
"Don't worry about a thing, baby doll
I'm the man you've been dreaming of."
But 3 months later, he say he won't date her, or return her calls
And she swear, "God damn, if I find that man, I'm cuttin' off his balls."
So, she heads for the clinic and
she gets some static, walking through the door
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
and they call her a whore
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose _

- *Erik Schrody*


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## bluebright (May 11, 2008)

Life begins at conception. So, this is where the moral bit comes in, if you have an abortion that's technically murder. But then you get into the details like what tinymonkeyt brought up. 

Its good to see such a serious topic making the rounds too.


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

Try sitting in a doctor's office, being told the pregnancy has complications, and that both the mother and baby could die, if an emergency abortion isn't performed within the next 7 days ...


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## FAST6191 (May 11, 2008)

Ignoring my usual cynicism (those people should not have been......)

Any reason, any period in time for me. "Killing", it is just a pile of chemicals as far as I am concerned (quite in fact the same "damage" could be done by moving air: nitrogen, carbon, oxygen, courtesy of the chilli I ate last night probably a bit of sulphur as well).
On the flip side if your religion of choice says (I will leave out discussion of interpretation for now and just assume it is the case) no abortion (I have met those in various religions with cancer of the 90% chance or better of a cure variety (which would also mean a lost kid) who had babies and subsequently kicked the bucket 2 weeks after squirting out a child) then by all means say that to your followers but do not spoil a good gig for the rest of us. 

@Panzer Tacticer what about those who support the parents/child, is the father the biological father or the "stand in"?

@tinymonkeyt what happens if such a persion took precautions and they failed?
I assume you have such an opinion owing to respect for life or some such: what kind of life would a child have who is essentially a punishment for what amounts a somewhat puritanical standpoint.
Cases I have seen originate from places where protection of some form (beyond the awful rhythm method) is illegal and a woman has had many children (but could otherwise bear children), on the flip side I have met those deemed physically incapable of carrying a child to term who pulled it off with minimal problems. This brings a subjective element in which is never good to have as part of a law.

Of course as I see it ultimately it would be like trying to ban anything: it just drives it underground making everything far more dangerous (abortion is not really that hard to do in terms of medical procedures but it still does not make it as safe as a well maintained place) or just for the rich (see medical tourism amongst the many other things).

I am also somewhat interested in other bioethics debate as it seems a lot of it is going on right now but I will not divert the topic (again I am all for science and my pile o' chemicals concept comes back).


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## arctic_flame (May 11, 2008)

bluebright said:
			
		

> Life begins at conception. So, this is where the moral bit comes in, if you have an abortion that's technically murder. But then you get into the details like what tinymonkeyt brought up.
> 
> Its good to see such a serious topic making the rounds too.



If life begins at conception, every time the zygote fails to implant it's killed?


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## pasc (May 11, 2008)

BoneMonkey said:
			
		

> http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=regressive
> 
> I'm against abortion, but for killing babies.



Thats because you suck.

No really, there aren´t much reasons for abortions I can think of except a raped girl.


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

pasc said:
			
		

> No really, there aren´t much reasons for abortions I can think of except a raped girl.



Then you need to think a little harder ...


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## tinymonkeyt (May 11, 2008)

true, there are situations and exceptions other than raped girls
such as broken protection (as fast pointed out)
but in the first place, it was their choice to have sex
and knowing that, they should've been more careful


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## pasc (May 11, 2008)

Bob Evil said:
			
		

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religious stuff doesn´t count for me since I don´t belong to any, although, you are right, a disease would for example be another reason to abort due to the risks.


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

pasc said:
			
		

> a disease would for example be another reason to abort due to the risks.



There you go ... there's always more to things, if you just think a little


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## pasc (May 11, 2008)

Bob Evil said:
			
		

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right


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## distorted.freque (May 11, 2008)

I'm still sticking with what I said. I just...I believe in life...because I got a chance to live it, didn't I?


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## tinymonkeyt (May 11, 2008)

...
i think i would give my life to one of those fetuses (feti?)
if i could.


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## azotyp (May 11, 2008)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> ry sitting in a doctor's office, being told the pregnancy has complications, and that both the mother and baby could die, if an emergency abortion isn't performed within the next 7 days ...



Normally Im against abortion cose for me it is a murder , but that situation that you mentioned is only situation that I could allow for one. (if I've had a choice). 
And if there's any situation that mother would be too poor to afford baby raising, there's always institutions to raise that kind of babies. As for mother that couldn't go to fancy school because of pregnat, she can wait 1 year and go after having a babie.


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

distorted.frequency said:
			
		

> I'm still sticking with what I said. I just...I believe in life...because I got a chance to live it, didn't I?



Are you loved? Were you wanted? Do you know who both your parents are?

Or, does your mother cry sometimes, when she looks at you, because all she can see is his face?

Or, were you raised by a father who visits a grave every weekend, and who cries at night?

Or, were you raised in a foster home, or an orphanage?

Or, were you sold by parents too poor to keep you, to someone with ideas other than providing you with a safe home?


Life isn't black & white ... we all don't have the same starts, or the same homes ...


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## Gamesphere (May 11, 2008)

It's just really hard. I support it in case or rape or sexual abuse. But I seem on the fence with others. Lol, Ironic how someone named Bob Evil comes with the most reasonable reasons to support it(Just jokes)

Anyway, The only reason why I may be against it is because I DON'T want it as a reason or an excuse to allow iresponsible adults or teens to go have unprotected sex and feel there will be no consequences.

The situation I want to avoid:  Man -"Yeah, Im not going to use a condom, If anything happens we can always just get an abortion..."

Life is lived with actions. Every action has a consequence. Living or dealing with consequence gives experience. Experience can be passed down so no one else will have to act it out.


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## distorted.freque (May 11, 2008)

Bob Evil said:
			
		

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No. But how are we so sure that a child will have a bleak future? I guess it's because I believe in giving everyone a chance. By abortion, you're taking that chance away.

Maaan. It's dizzying to answer this when a part of my brain is still arguing for pro-abortion. D: (And it does have its points. *sighs*) Sorry. I don't know enough about life to have a clear opinion on this. I just believe in life because I was given it. It may not be the best or the worst...but it's something I'm holding onto.


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

distorted.frequency said:
			
		

> No. But how are we so sure that a child will have a bleak future?




Some people only have bleak futures ... some situations only lead to new life being corrupted or destroyed ... better to have not lived at all, than live in Hell ...


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## WeaponXxX (May 11, 2008)

My mom didn't want a boy, had like 7 abortions before me and for some reason decided to have me. While she chose to NOT to abort me she didn't want me especially once she had a daughter and so she locked me in the basement and then at 11 kicked me out of the house when she decided to up and move. The psychological damage of not having a father/mother figure was bad enough but also not seeing people in the flesh form, or even daylight for a few years was even more traumatic to recover from, let alone the troubles of spending every fucking holiday alone. Too many parents have kids they don't want and don't end up putting it up for adoption because they object to giving up a kid but yet have no problems emotionally and physically abusing their kids.  Becoming a parent is a *BIG* responsibility and not one that should be FORCED upon people especially there is nobody around to make sure the parents are doing it right.

*Edit
Considering I wish my mom had aborted me...I think its safe to say if the above was too big for you to read, I'm PRO ABORTION. Regretting and being FORCED to have a child is not a good way to start a relationship!!!!

For the religious fanatics out there,
So if my mom aborted me...you think "Oh I'd go to baby hell" or something like that. But when your abused and beaten there is a good chance you're gonna end up a sinner (and end up on a website that talks about piracy *gasp stealing is a sin* off to hell I go) and so it's a loose loose situation. Sure there is a SLIGHT chance the kid might make it out not all fucked up but really how many P.O.W.s have you met that aren't all fucked in the head


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## King Zargo (May 11, 2008)

Does eating eggs count for an abortion? If that's so than I am for it.


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## anime_junkie (May 11, 2008)

Me? I'm pro-choice. As far as I see it, that fetus isn't really "alive", in a conscious sense. If someone feels that they need to get an abortion, it should be all right and legal to do so. I'm not saying everyone who goes to get an abortion is right in their reasons in getting it, but why take away that choice from others who may need it, just to stop irresponsibility? Do we stop selling cold medicine because people use it to get drunk?

Some people use just about everything for bad reasons, but that doesn't mean everyone does.


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## Raganook (May 11, 2008)

anime_junkie said:
			
		

> Me? I'm pro-choice. As far as I see it, that fetus isn't really "alive", in a conscious sense. If someone feels that they need to get an abortion, it should be all right and legal to do so. I'm not saying everyone who goes to get an abortion is right in their reasons in getting it, but why take away that choice from others who may need it, just to stop irresponsibility? Do we stop selling cold medicine because people use it to get drunk?
> 
> Some people use just about everything for bad reasons, but that doesn't mean everyone does.



Absolutely beautiful.


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## WeaponXxX (May 11, 2008)

Shit thanks for reminding to call my Mom on mothers day!
/me goes to make the call!


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## Hooya (May 11, 2008)

Like the war on drugs, it's not a battle anyone will win by outlawing it.  The biggest premise for me to be pro choice is that abortion should be kept SAFE and legal.  If it becomes illegal all of a sudden you have a huge amount of other problems to deal with because regardless of its legality there will still be abortions performed, but they'll just be in bad, unsafe conditions.  Prohibition is NEVER the answer to these problems.

It's always better to have something legal but regulated, in order to keep what will inevitably happen safe.  This is why I'm against drug war and why I'm against outlawing abortion.


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## matriculated (May 11, 2008)

anime_junkie said:
			
		

> Me? I'm pro-choice. As far as I see it, that fetus isn't really "alive", in a conscious sense.



So when does the fetus become "alive"?


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## Sinkhead (May 11, 2008)

In my opinion when it can feel pain. It's 'alive' before that but it won't know anything at all and won't be able to feel anything.


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## Gamesphere (May 11, 2008)

WeaponXxX said:
			
		

> My mom didn't want a boy, had like 7 abortions before me and for some reason decided to have me. While she chose to NOT to abort me she didn't want me especially once she had a daughter and so she locked me in the basement and then at 11 kicked me out of the house when she decided to up and move. The psychological damage of not having a father/mother figure was bad enough but also not seeing people in the flesh form, or even daylight for a few years was even more traumatic to recover from, let alone the troubles of spending every fucking holiday alone. Too many parents have kids they don't want and don't end up putting it up for adoption because they object to giving up a kid but yet have no problems emotionally and physically abusing their kids.  Becoming a parent is a *BIG* responsibility and not one that should be FORCED upon people especially there is nobody around to make sure the parents are doing it right.
> 
> *Edit
> Considering I wish my mom had aborted me...I think its safe to say if the above was too big for you to read, I'm PRO ABORTION. Regretting and being FORCED to have a child is not a good way to start a relationship!!!!
> ...



True words.


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## VmprHntrD (May 11, 2008)

From what I recall in biology and all that in college where shit isn't sugar coated and people are their most ignorant and mouthy I recall that defacto 'life' as we call it begins the last trimester basically as that's when you have an independent heartbeat, brainwave...identity.  Previous to this it's anything from a small blob of random indeterminate cells to a fetus which again is much that but is beginning to take a distinct shape...yet still is just a blob of non-identity/unique bearing matter.

If you can't see where i'm going on this you're out of the loop, but I'm very against that last 3 month period where you get the 'late term' mess with sucking the brain out of other lovely practices as that's just dead wrong...while maybe in the womb it is infanticide anyway you hack it.

Outside of that though if you're doing it like going to have your hair done...I don't like that either, but also I very well believe in cases it should be a total right of choice as it is YOUR body, not that asshole with a gross picketing sign, or some fat old bastard on capital hill either in DC.  I think in the cases say of rape, congenital issues, retardation, if it meant death/perm damage on the table for the woman, and if you were using one of those 99.9% 'protection' choices and you're the poor son of a bitch and lady who hit that 1 in a 1000 I'd say it's your call.

I get so fucking sick of righteous assholes telling people what they have a right to do on stuff as a blanket statement, and get furious over it being in politics as it's just a bargaining chip to sucker in a few more votes.

I'm married to a methodist girl who does/doesn't do church but I know the book has her thinking it's unacceptable in any way so I fear it'll become a damn problem possibly at some point but I'm hoping for the best it won't as that's one argument that won't go over well at all and neither of us would be willing to back down either I imagine.


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## iwakura (May 11, 2008)

pro. I know it's not as simple as this, but for me: I use contraceptives correctly, and don't expect my gf to get pregnant anytime soon. if she does get pregnant, I'd always want the option to abort the baby. I don't want to be a father in high shcool  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



I would think others are in a similar situation...?


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## Sonicslasher (May 11, 2008)

This is a not a subject that can be said with a "against" or "for" stand point. It is not black and white like most religious people say. It is never the same situation for everyone. Therefore I cannot be "against" or "for" abortions.


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## matriculated (May 11, 2008)

sinkhead said:
			
		

> In my opinion when it can feel pain. It's 'alive' before that but it won't know anything at all and won't be able to feel anything.



So people who feel no pain aren't alive?


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## Bob Evil (May 11, 2008)

matriculated said:
			
		

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_Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something._ *- Westley
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## Shelleeson (May 11, 2008)

Bob Evil said:
			
		

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wow bob evil, this has to be the best post i've ever seen you make

(no sarcasm intended)


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## moozxy (May 11, 2008)

distorted.frequency said:
			
		

> Against because you're killing an innocent life.
> 
> For because if you don't have the money to support that person's life, it's the same as killing that person.
> 
> Then again, this sounds a lot like mercy killing. I'm still ultimately against abortion because I believe that every person should get a chance to live, even if that person is going to suffer through the rest of his or her life. But only because there's always that tiny piece of hope that something good will happen to that person as well.


You're not really killing anything when you have an abortion. You don't say your eating a chick when you eat scrambled egg in the mornings. 
Still, I think I'm against it, it just doesn't seem right for someone to judge whether a potential life is worth living.. Who knows what will happen in the future?


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## cherryduck (May 11, 2008)

This stuff is deep, I'm almost afraid to pitch in my own thoughts. But basically, when you see some of the people around where I live that have babies just to get a free house, and then ignore it or give it booze, I think it'd be better that they don't have kids at all. These kids almost always grow up to be little sh*ts that come in to the shop were I work and steal things, then hang around drinking alcohol and beating up anyone that happens to go by. I know I may seem to be stereotyping, but my experience in life so far has shown that chav kids in hoodies are the ones I have to look out for when I'm working in the shop or out on the streets.

Also, me and my girlfriend are always very careful but if she were to get pregnant, it would ruin both our lives. I'd have to pull out of College and get a full time job to support it, and she'd have to work full time, so I would never get a career and would be condemned to minimum wage jobs and she would too, and the rest of our lives and the kids life would be ruined. Whereas, if she got an abortion and then later at a point where we wanted kids and I had a good career, and could be sure of supporting a child, life would be so much better for us and the child.


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## bluebright (May 12, 2008)

arctic_flame said:
			
		

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That's because those egg's are not fertilized, so there isn't anything living inside.


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## santorix10 (May 12, 2008)

I would be nice to have a poll.


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## Bob Evil (May 12, 2008)

gbpic said:
			
		

> I would be nice to have a poll.



Why?

Statistics regarding a subject like this, are just demeaning to the importance of it.


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## podunk1269 (May 12, 2008)

A woman's body is her own choice

however, I would kill someone who aborted my child, unless nessary, such as what bob sated earlier.  I know it;s a double standard but fuck it , I dont care


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## VVoltz (May 12, 2008)

Bob Evil said:
			
		

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I really like Bob Evil, he is wise word beyond his words.


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## feds4u (May 12, 2008)

Abortion topic?  Really?

I guess the rumors are true. GBAtemp staff is posting flame bait topics just to get people to argue for their own amusement.

Wow, what sort of asshole brings up the topic of Abortion on a gaming forum anyway?  So classy.


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## hanman (May 12, 2008)

all the nihilism in this topic makes me sad


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## podunk1269 (May 12, 2008)

In our defense, you didnt have to click no the topic


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## tinymonkeyt (May 12, 2008)

feds4u said:
			
		

> Abortion topic?  Really?
> 
> I guess the rumors are true. GBAtemp staff is posting flame bait topics just to get people to argue for their own amusement.
> 
> Wow, what sort of asshole brings up the topic of Abortion on a gaming forum anyway?  So classy.


well to be honest
i dont think its flame bait
i mean, we can argue over the situations that make abortion "right" and "wrong". but theres nothing intentionally here that can offend someone (unless they were really serious and stubborn about their point of view on abortion). its not like we can flame each other for thinking the way we do. (i.e. what do you expect? 'you're such a fetus-hugger >'?)

oh you forgot one important thing
the topic of abortion is in the general *Off-Topic* Chat
i dont think the staff appreciates your name calling or what not
they dont post "flamebait topics just to get people to argue for their own amusement"
because
1. its not flame bait
2. im pretty sure they dont enjoy flame wars burning up their forums
3. and thats a pessimistic views on the people who devote so much time and effort on here to make this possible
be sooo thankful you're even able to post, read, and write on here

if somethings gonna be flamebait here
i think you just satisfied the requirements

and VVoltz(sorry i cant do the trademark >.


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## feds4u (May 12, 2008)

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## Ace Gunman (May 12, 2008)

This isn't _just_ a gaming forum, any and all topics can be discussed here as long as they are within the parameters of the rules, and stay civil. It's usually only the console war topics that get flamey here; generally the discussions of religion, politics, sensitive issues such as this, etc, generally they stay civil and open-minded.


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## jalaneme (May 12, 2008)

i lost a little brother due to abortion, i will never forget what my mother did all those years ago, she was actually going to abort me, it just makes me hate her even more.


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## rest0re (May 12, 2008)

VVoltz™ said:
			
		

> Do or don't?
> Opinions?


well ofcourse it's good if you download too big file you need to abort the download!


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## Endogene (May 12, 2008)

whenever someone tells me that abortion is denying an individual to live i like to answer the following:

"according to you i bear in me about half the total of people living on earth or even more, and they all die within 3 days within me, does this make me a killer for i deny those individuals the right to live?"

Having an abortion of an early stage foetus is like clipping of a finger nail, it's a part of you that you can contain if you want to or not

This said my opinion on abortion is that those who are in need of an abortion should have and shouldn't feel bad about it and should NOT be denied the option of having an abortion

edit: foetus is one hard word to remember how to write, this topic has been an interesting read so far


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## Zarcon (May 12, 2008)

@feds4u:
The staff here promote and encourage free speech.
Over the years we've had several "touchy" topics and, for the most part, they usually end up civil and enlightening.
Heck, we've allowed topics that simply ragged on the staff in case someone brings up a valid complaint.
Don't be so quick to bark at something. You don't want to be chasing your own tail so to speak.

As for the topic at hand, as some others have stated, I'm not for or against abortion, I'm pro choice.
The ideal and reality are almost never alike. Life is too random to state everything in black and white.


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## Densetsu (May 12, 2008)

Wow, lots of brain juices flowing here!  There's a lot of ethical debate, but I think everyone should understand the scientific background before getting into the philosophical talk.  

In the biological sense, a "cell" is the most basic unit of life.  

That's a fact.  It's not ethics or philosophy, and it's not debatable.  Here's another fact: 

Those billions of tadpoles produced in every nut?  We call them sperm *cells*.  And the things that are fertilized by them are called egg *cells*.  

Since sperm and egg are both "cells," meaning that they contain all of the necessary components of life, they are just as alive prior to fertilization as they are the second after fertilization.  Once a sperm cell enters an egg cell, the egg releases enzymes inside of itself that destroy the sperm cell until it is broken down into nothing but basic proteins, which are then excreted by the egg.  All that is left of the sperm is the DNA package it delivered to the egg.  Since the sperm cell dies after fertilization, you could even argue that two living organisms come together to form one living organism.  

So the only difference between a non-fertilized egg and a fertilized egg (aside from the numerous chemical reactions that take place after conception) is the number of chromosomes it has.  Human sperm and egg cells each have 23 pairs of chromosomes.  After the egg cell is fertilized, it has 46 pairs of chromosomes.  

But if you want to argue that life begins when an egg has 46 pairs of chromosomes and therefore it is wrong to abort, this would be flawed thinking because we shed skin cells every day that contain 46 pairs of chromosomes.  Every time you pluck a hair from your body, you're getting rid of living cells at the root of the hair.  Every time you bleed, you lose white blood cells.  Therefore you can't base life on DNA alone.  

Now that I've gotten the facts out of the way, I'll begin my ethical rant.  

I'm pro-choice.  

I don't like the argument that "life begins at conception."  I'd have to say that life doesn't "begin" anywhere; it's always been there.  We don't/can't create life.  We just bring the sperm and egg together so they can do their thing.  

The controversy that lies in abortion is not the fact that we are destroying an innocent life.  Innocent lives are destroyed all the time and we don't even bat an eye.  Have you ever cried over roadkill?  It's the fact that we're killing a human being that's the problem.  But is a ball of cells equivalent to a human being?  In my bioethics course in college, my classmates came up with some interesting ideas.  Everyone seemed to agree that you can't really call a ball of cells a "human being."  They preferred to call it a "potential human being."  While a fertilized egg has the "potential" to become a human being, for the first couple of weeks after fertilization it is still a ball of dividing cells that have no specialized function.  The early stages of a human zygote look almost identical to zygotes of other animal species.  Some babies are born without a brain (a phenomenon called anencephaly).  There are varying degrees of anencephaly, and most anencephalic babies are stillborn.  But some are born with their basic biological functions, such as breathing, heart beat, etc.  These babies have no hope of ever achieving consciousness, and are invariably euthanized.  Anencephalic babies have completely-developed circulatory systems, respiratory systems (they can breathe), and have a far more developed nervous system than a zygote.  In fact, if it were not for the lack of a full brain, they'd be completely developed human beings.  And yet they're still euthanized.  A zygote doesn't have a single neuron inside of it.  It has no thoughts, no feelings, no conscience, not even any instinct.  So what's more human, the microscopic ball of cells growing in the uterus that's indistinguishable from a fertilized chicken larva, or the almost fully-developed human baby (that gets euthanized)?  I think that an embryo becomes a human being when it is possible for that embryo to survive outside of the uterus (with assistance).  By that time it has already developed working circulatory, respiratory and nervous systems.  By then, it's no longer a "potential" human being, but a viable baby.  When you pull a fertilized egg outside of the uterus and the air alone can dry it up and kill it, you can hardly call that cell a human being.  

What about the embryos that are routinely destroyed in fertility clinics?  Couples who have problems conceiving a child will go and visit a fertility specialist.  In order to improve their chances of having a child, the doctor removes several eggs from the mother and fertilizes all of them with the father's sperm _in vitro_ (that means "test tube babies" for the layperson).  Some of the eggs will fertilize, others will not.  But quite often, more than one egg will get fertilized, and in some cases, all of the eggs do.  And usually, the couple will only want one child, so the doctor has to choose which fertilized eggs will die, and which one will be implanted back into the mother's uterus.  Would it be fair to the couple (especially the mother) to say that she MUST take all of those fertilized eggs back to be implanted in her uterus?  

Now, I'm not a religious person, but I do have a deep respect for life and nature in general.  But being male myself, it wouldn't be fair for me to say what a woman can and can't do with her own body.  It's easy for a man to do a "hit-and-split," but the woman is stuck with the consequences.  People argue that abortion is just a way for irresponsible people to have sex all they want without repercussions, and therefore abortion should be illegal.  Should the sale of firearms be illegal because someone could easily kill another human being with it?  Should alcohol be illegal because irresponsible people drive under the influence and destroy innocent lives?  Should the sale of flash carts be banned because people use them to download ROMs illegally for free?  The answer, my friends, is a big, resounding NO.  People aren't going to have unprotected sex just because "we can get an abortion later."  Why?  Because abortions are EXPENSIVE.  In fact, it is for this very reason that the [email protected]$$es who DO go around having unprotected sex all the time tend to be the same people who DON'T have abortions.  Whether or not to abort is a not decision to be made lightly, and it's certainly not cheap.  So those who do get abortions usually have a good reason for it.  And to reiterate, as a guy who can never comprehend what it would be like to deal with pregnancy, I don't think I have a right to pass judgment on a woman for wanting an abortion.  

I'm far from ready to start a family, and I'm very careful with my girlfriend.  And if I ever got her pregnant, I would honestly want her to have the abortion, but I would stick with her in whatever decision she makes, even if she decided to keep the baby.


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## mb01 (May 12, 2008)

There are too many different circumstances to justify an abortion being appropriate or not. I think it's just something that has to be decided regarding the individual person(s) and time in their life.


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## FAST6191 (May 12, 2008)

Go go science mode, admitted biology bores me somewhat (probably due to the ethics side of things that most who have every taught me got hung up on) so I am not as on top of things as I might be in other areas. In some ways I agree with some of the stuff you said but this is devils advocate mode. For some reason it also reminds me of some psychology debates regarding creating thought with a computer as a lot of it seems to be somewhat entrenched thought (on both sides).
The other side of the fence is we are arguing science against what (assuming religion or similar) amounts to a fairly washy argument based on interpretation of a text written far before the science/understanding appeared and what I will go so far as to call the god of the gaps theory rides again. Wording and translation also figure into it kill and murder are two different things yet I frequently see the terms interchanged, likewise theory and hypothesis are two different things yet I often the meanings confused ("just a theory").

Can't create life: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3268259.stm
Admittedly we could now start a "is a virus life?" debate but that could go on all week. I will also add at what stage does messing with something make it a created life: I can reasonably strip a cell of DNA and add some more from something else. I hate to create an analogy but surely that is like me getting someones computer program and just deleting it and merely using the same "file"/layout. As an engineer I frequently use the products of bacterial and plant growth in manners entirely different from what is actually produced (natural plastics can end up fantastic if you know how to rework them, bacteria can be used to generate everything from gold (see bactec process) to hydrogen (fuel cells mainly being touted for this one) to enzymes for just about everything), most of these building blocks I can not create with any halfway sensible level of chemistry (atomic force microscope does equal sensible) let alone industrial (outside of these methods of course).

You touch upon the unfertilised cell not equalling life debate as well. I will duck this point as I am not quite sure of a suitable way to attack/provide counterpoints (primarily as I agree with what you said) other than perhaps to home in on the "numerous chemical reactions": glycerine is a nice additive to washing up liquid to make bubbles, a few choice reactions and I have an unstable explosive furthermore how many chemicals are influenced by chirality ( http://www.chemicool.com/definition/chirality.html ), how many metals being the same in composition but different in structure act differently.

"Survive outside the womb" not a quote but what if technology affords an artificial womb or tech to keep a premature baby alive: I am more than happy for the "no extraordinary measures" option to be applied the other side of life but it seems others are not.

anencephaly huh, an interesting point to argue. To some you run the risk of creating a spectrum of human life which many are diametrically opposed to (again many points could be argued to those that do: death penalty, reasonable defence, pre-emptive strikes.......). Of course then we can also start defining life by organs: how many years was the heart the "key to the soul" however now should someone be "killed" but their brain harvested to be implanted have they been killed (serious assualt perhaps but the persons memories are still there)?

"we shed skin cells": in a position that will probably change at some point within our lifetimes (I may not be as on top of things as I might like but reading some of the latest biotech stuff some interesting things can happen) if it has not already my skin cells can not really create a new life. I guess this then falls back to intent/ a concious action to prevent "creation" of life.

"Why? Because abortions are EXPENSIVE" a bit facetious here but *points to NHS and various medical acts say an essential medical service can not be denied on cost basis (proving it is a bit harder of course).


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## Densetsu (May 12, 2008)

_"The other side of the fence is we are arguing science against what (assuming religion or similar) amounts to a fairly washy argument based on interpretation of a text written far before the science/understanding appeared and what I will go so far as to call the god of the gaps theory rides again."_
True, we can't argue science against religious doctrine.  That would be like arguing evolution against intelligent design, which is a moot point because it blurs the line between two completely different ideas when that line should keep them separate.  The reality of it is that there is no conflict between them at all.  What I did notice is that nobody on this thread mentioned "God" or "religion" as the basis for their belief (correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I didn't look hard enough).  So my argument isn't a challenge to anyones' religious beliefs, I'm only providing rationale for my own beliefs.  

_"Admittedly we could now start a "is a virus life?" debate but that could go on all week. I will also add at what stage does messing with something make it a created life: I can reasonably strip a cell of DNA and add some more from something else."_
Yeah, even viruses have a place in the biological taxonomy, and experts are divided on whether a virus is considered a true life.  I should have rephrased my original statement to say "we can't create *human* life."  

_"You touch upon the unfertilised cell not equalling life debate as well."_
I never said that an unfertilized cell isn't alive.  Quite the contrary.  I said that "they are just as alive prior to fertilization as they are the second after fertilization."  I did mention that a fertilized cell is hardly equivalent to a human being, but that's different from saying it's not alive.  

_"'Survive outside the womb' not a quote but what if technology affords an artificial womb or tech to keep a premature baby alive: I am more than happy for the "no extraordinary measures" option to be applied the other side of life but it seems others are not."_
Note that I said "survive outside the uterus (with assistance)."  By "assistance," but I was referring to exactly that: technology.  If it were possible to incubate a human embryo and carry it to full term completely independent of a biological womb, that would be an amazing feat, to say the least (not to mention borderline creepy, like science fiction a-la _The Matrix_).  I don't know if this will be possible within our lifetimes, but as technology changes, so does our way of thinking.  I believe it would take an extreme paradigm shift in the way our society thinks before we could even reach this point in technology.  

_"anencephaly huh, an interesting point to argue. To some you run the risk of creating a spectrum of human life which many are diametrically opposed to (again many points could be argued to those that do: death penalty, reasonable defence, pre-emptive strikes.......). Of course then we can also start defining life by organs: how many years was the heart the "key to the soul" however now should someone be "killed" but their brain harvested to be implanted have they been killed (serious assualt perhaps but the persons memories are still there)?"_
Well, I don't know about brain implants...assuming it were even possible to transplant a brain into another body, wouldn't that make the recipient a different person with the personalities, memories and thoughts of the donor? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Joking aside, again we return to the question of what makes us "human beings?"  Is it our thoughts?  Our emotions?  Our conscience?  All of these things are housed in the brain.  Some would even go as far as to say that we are human beings because of our brains, but then a ball of cells in the uterus has not even a single neuron, let alone a brain (hence it is a "potential" human being).  But the question of when an embryo crosses the line from potential human being to actual human being is way too big for me to answer by merely arguing semantics.  So regrettably, I must duck this question.  

_"'Why? Because abortions are EXPENSIVE' a bit facetious here but *points to NHS and various medical acts say an essential medical service can not be denied on cost basis (proving it is a bit harder of course)."_
Sorry, totally I overlooked the fact that health care is not the same all over the world.  I'm not familiar with NHS as I am an American.  And admittedly, the US public health care system is shite (read: nonexistent).  In fact, the US is the only industrialized nation in the world that doesn't have a universal health care system.  If in the UK one can get an abortion free of charge every time there's an unwanted pregnancy, I can see how it would be possible for one to take this service for granted and treat it as just another form of birth control.   I'll have to ask my girlfriend's sister who is an OB/GYN for more information about how exactly it works in the US.  

As mb01 already said, there are too many different factors that come into play. I'm pro-choice, but I would never tell someone who's pro-life that they're wrong.  Like I said before, I have a deep respect for life and even I would support my girlfriend if she ever decided to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term.  

@FAST6191: Thanks for the stimulating and refreshing discussion.  It would be awesome if more people posted on this topic the way you and I did.  

@ VVoltz™: I'm interested in what you think as well.  You started this thread, c'mon, whaddya say?


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## VVoltz (May 13, 2008)

Densetsu3000 said:
			
		

> @ VVoltz™: I'm interested in what you think as well.  You started this thread, c'mon, whaddya say?



I appreciate your opinion, thanks!
My opinion is... I cannot say right now, something is happening to a person very close to me and the truth is that in life, sometimes you have to put your beliefs and moral values aside, just because you love someone. I'm sorry, but this is not the best time to express my opinion.

Rest assure that I'll bring this thread back to life in a few weeks to express myself.

Thank you and all who shared their opinions.


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## Bob Evil (May 13, 2008)

*gives VVoltz™ a big, manly hug*


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