# Spanking/Belting... Child Abuse or not?



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

re:title.

I was punished with both methods as a child. I was a very troublesome little shit, and after the spanking started to not work, my dad used the belt, and that straightened me up for life. I'm so polite even when I'm 21. I don't think of myself as the person part of the douche bag generation who acts like they own the world.

I can't see myself being this way if I hadn't been punished as a child. 

What say you?


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## Pliskron (Dec 8, 2010)

I can tell you that if a child knows you'll spank them then you don't have to spank them. All of these spineless parents who want to be best friends with their kids end up having miserable little bastards. I can also tell you that a child with rules and boundaries that are enforced with corporal punishment if necessary are happier.


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## Sterling (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> re:title.
> 
> I was punished with both methods as a child. I was a very troublesome little shit, and after the spanking started to not work, my dad used the belt, and that straightened me up for life. I'm so polite even when I'm 21. I don't think of myself as the person part of the douche bag generation who acts like they own the world.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. I wouldn't be the fine upstanding citizen I am today without the wooden paddle my dad made in woodshop.


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## Rydian (Dec 8, 2010)

I've gotten smacked on the arm once, that's about it.
My dad and everybody else says I was always a good kid.




BUT NO, NOW I'M A FUCKING FURRY.  GOOD JOB DAD.


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## Forstride (Dec 8, 2010)

Pliskron said:
			
		

> I can tell you that if a child knows you'll spank them then you don't have to spank them. All of these spineless parents who want to be best friends with their kids end up having miserable little bastards. I can also tell you that a child with rules and boundaries that are enforced with corporal punishment if necessary are happier.


That's seriously the biggest horse shit I've ever heard.  If a child knows that they could be spanked/belted for something, they're going to be in fear a lot.  They aren't going to live happy lives, at least until they move out.  Punishment rarely does anything for kids, especially things like taking away video games and whatnot, unless they really can't live without it, and attempt suicide or some extreme crap.  After a few times, they just don't care and they find something else to do.

On-topic: I don't find any means of physical punishment helpful at all, as it just makes the child fearful, they develop hermit-like symptoms, etc...Parents don't think of the long lasting effect physical punishment can have on a child, and they just go ahead and beat them.  It's not really solving any problems there might be either, which is what punishment is supposed to do.  It just puts more and more fear into the child, leading to the point where they think anything they do will earn them a nice belt to the ass.

I've seen it happen tons of times, and it happened to me years ago.  I've "recovered" I guess you could say from it, and I don't feel all depressed or hermit-like anymore.  But to those kids that have it happen to them, the lasting effect might not go away.


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## dinofan01 (Dec 8, 2010)

I couldnt care less if its abuse or not im hitting my kids. That may sound terrible but it worked for me and millions of children before me. It brought up many great people and not spanking kids isnt gonna be bring up any less bad people. I'm sure this is flame worthy but i dont care. If the kids deserves to be hit he/ she will.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

TDWP FTW said:
			
		

> Pliskron said:
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I was spanked a lot. I was also belted a lot. I'm not fearful of my parents. I learned to stay in line and I learned what was right to do, and what was fun but wrong to do very early.


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## Forstride (Dec 8, 2010)

I guess my story is different, as it wasn't even one of my parents that belted me, but my mom's one boyfriend/sister's dad.  He did it out of pure hate towards us, even if we didn't do anything wrong.  He was a hateful and just all out horrible person, so the reason behind his punishment was different than any other parent.

My mom knew about it, but I think she was living under fear of him as well.  My mom used to spank us before that, but even then, it was with warning so we knew why we were getting spanked.  Same with things like getting soap in our mouths for saying bad words.


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## Vigilante (Dec 8, 2010)

Add a poll its better


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## CannonFoddr (Dec 8, 2010)

My Dad was always 'strict but fair' - he'd only gave us kids a spank if we deserved it (which usually was if we broke one of the 'house rules')

Usually we were given a verbal warning & if we continued then we got spanked with the hand (usually a light slap) if we still continued then it was the Belt (just hard enough for it to sting)

We KNEW why we got punished, We were given a chance to stop & We knew the consequences of continuing, so the argument of 'It just puts more and more fear into the child' IMHO doesn't really holds it own. 
The three of us 'kids' have grown up to be quite respectable adults. We know the 'rights' from the 'wrongs', we also have respect for others

Unlike nowadays.....

The 'youngsters' of today - they don't have any respect for elders, cheeky, swear and god knows what else - I've have even heard 6-7yr olds swear to their parents (I didn't even know what swear words were until I started Senior school) & yet the parents do nothing about it

There has to be a fine line between 'constant punishment' and 'laid back' approach - I  think my Dad had it just right - but IMHO there HAS to be some form of punishment for 'wrong doings', otherwise kids get the wrong message & could end up doing much more serious 'crimes' - just look at the teenagers of today, going round in gangs, carrying knife & guns, being disrespectful etc...& why is that I wonder ??  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




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## Pliskron (Dec 8, 2010)

If I use spanking as punishment I always ask them to tell me why they are in trouble and we talk about how this could have been avoided and I tell  them that I love them. Now I have spanked and I will spank but 99.9% of the time a threat will do because they know it's a threat I'm fully comfortable carrying out. There's a big difference between using spanking as one of many tools and abusing a child. I can tell you all that every parent I know that doesn't or hasn't spanked has dysfunctional little defiant bastards. All I have to say to that is it'd have to be over my dead body that I'd let an impudent little prick rule the roost.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

Pliskron said:
			
		

> If I use spanking as punishment I always ask them to tell me why they are in trouble and we talk about how this could have been avoided and I tell  them that I love them. Now I have spanked and I will spank but 99.9% of the time a threat will do because they know it's a threat I'm fully comfortable carrying out. There's a big difference between using spanking as one of many tools and abusing a child. I can tell you all that every parent I know that doesn't or hasn't spanked has dysfunctional little defiant bastards. All I have to say to that is it'd have to be over my dead body that I'd let an impudent little prick rule the roost.



That's where I think spanking is perfectly fine. Verbal warnings doesn't do shit or verbal punishments.

"Your grounded!" Well the kid doesn't lose anything, he stays inside and plays games and watch's tv.
"On the count of 3..." Or what?

Seriously, so many kids in this generation just walk over adults. And A LOT of kids who weren't punished as a kid, they treat everybody like shit. I mean honestly, the little high school sluts who are 15, have a cell phone, racks up 100's of dollars in bills and doesn't do their work and they party.


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## Riley (Dec 8, 2010)

Its not child abuse they need to be punished somehow.  Real child abuse is when you use the phonebook


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## I am r4ymond (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> re:title.
> 
> I was punished with both methods as a child. I was a very troublesome little shit, and after the spanking started to not work, my dad used the belt, and that straightened me up for life. I'm so polite even when I'm 21. I don't think of myself as the person part of the douche bag generation who acts like they own the world.
> 
> ...



I am somewhat similar to you. When I was a kid (about the age of 2-7), I used to be a stubborn, violent, and a very curious little bastard, so much that I pissed off my parents' bosses. I also used to steal A LOT, whether it be video games, toys, money - whatever appealed to me. My parents would always find out if I had been stealing things. They would resort to a stick or a whip to punish me. I then soon realize that they punished me only for the good of it. I went from being insanely violent to being docile. And of course...I've stopped stealing ever since I was 8.


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## BORTZ (Dec 8, 2010)

There needs to be discipline somewhere. 
Actually i think some kids respond better to spanking than others. 
Some respond better to timeouts. 
Its up to the discernment of the parent. And we have to trust that the parents are fit parents :/

I dont believe spanking is "Abuse" 
And most of you know you deserved it.
BUT sometimes there are dads that are pricks.


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## Ryukouki (Dec 8, 2010)

I remember being a loud little fucker at home. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I feared the wooden oar looking thing in my room. Very smart move. I got hit by it once when I was 6, then they left it in my room. Never got hit again.


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## aiRWaLKRe (Dec 8, 2010)

It's not abuse if you do it when they misbehave. Just doing it for the hell of it is abuse. Kids need to be spanked when they misbehave. I was a good kid I only needed it twice in my life. I see to many little sh**s running around acting like they think they own the world and do whatever they want, the parents just smile and look away. I so want to walk up to the little brat and yell to the parent " This is how you discipline your child *red palm of death on bare behind* !!!" But that wouldn't go over good with the law, unfortunately.


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## DeMoN (Dec 8, 2010)

Physically speaking, it's nothing.  
Psychologically, speaking, spanking is a very complex matter.  It could cause you to become a gentleman (like the TC), but for others it might cause them to become insane or criminals.  It's not a chance I'm willing to take so  I wouldn't do it, ever.


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## MelodieOctavia (Dec 8, 2010)

Spanking no, but if you use any kind of physical object other than your hand, I would consider it child abuse. 

That being said, as a parent I believe that the *CONSEQUENCE* should fit the crime. Notice I said consequence, and not punishment. A child should never be punished but there should always be a consequence for their actions, such as if my child won't get off the game after told, after a reasonable time (Finishing a match, finishing the level, getting to a save spot, etc...is acceptable) They get the game taken away for a period. Stay out past curfew? You will be in the house at all times save for school and doctors appointments for a certain period.


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## Vigilante (Dec 8, 2010)

well good for the poll


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## ineap09 (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree with a lot of what's been said. Kids need a spanking when they've done something wrong. My parents did it to me, and I consider them to be in the right. Everything does need to be in moderation. Nothing should ever be taken in extremes. People who were beaten excessively are traumatized and do not want their kids to experience the same trauma they did, so they go to the opposite end of the spectrum, and never spank their kids. They don't realize that they are ruining their child's lives because of their own past. This ticks me off. This is where Logic > Emotions. It pains me to think that many who have been traumatized cause others to suffer. I may sound like I have no sympathy towards those who have been traumatized, but you can get over trauma through therapy. Those who are undisciplined will eventually have to learn it in jail, where there will be no love in the punishment(as opposed to be punished by just parents). Neither end of the spectrum is good. Stay just, do not beat out of anger, punish with love. That's basically it.


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## ineap09 (Dec 8, 2010)

TDWP FTW said:
			
		

> Pliskron said:
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I believe fear is the only reason to not do wrong. If you feared nothing, would you do the fun wrong thing, or the less fun right thing? 

Children should know why they are being spanked when they are, otherwise the parent is putting undue fear in the child. That's like punishing a dog for digging a hole they had dug the other day. The dog will be confused and scared because it won't know what the punishment is for. 

"It just puts more and more fear into the child, leading to the point where they think anything they do will earn them a nice belt to the ass." I would go as far to say that if the child thinks anything they do will earn them a spanking, the parent is not doing their job right. Therefore, too much fear = parents not doing their job. If there's no fear though, like I mentioned in the second sentence, they would choose whatever is more fun rather than what's right or wrong. 

Children will only do right out of fear of punishment. Whether it's fear of a spanking, or the fear that they won't get a cookie with supper, it's always fear that tells them that they need to do the right thing. There's a difference between those two punishments though. The fear of a spanking will make the child not want to take any chances, and will not do the wrong thing if they think there's a chance of a spanking. The fear of not getting a cookie with supper only encourages the child to learn how to manipulate others. The child will be more testing of how much wrong they can do without getting the punishment(this is also true with spankings that don't hurt or barely hurt). This is bad because learning how to manipulate people encourages corruption in the work place when they are older. 

You didn't mention what alternative there should be to the physical punishment not being helpful. What would be helpful? I'm guessing that would be to take away their cookie at supper then? Or just strongly said words? In order for strongly said words to stop kids from doing wrong, the kids have to have a fear of the strongly said words which according to you means that they won't live happy lives because they'll be in constant fear of the strongly said words, right? Something has to be done so that the child doesn't do wrong. That something has to be punishment or it won't have any affect. The punishment has to either be pain, the induction of fear(strongly said words?), or the taking away of something they want. 

There is actually another thing though. The parent could possibly decide to not punish the child at all, hoping that that the child will learn from the natural consequences of their actions. But all that does it open the child to getting hurt. A lot more hurt than they would've gotten had the parent given them a fear of doing the wrong thing.

Pain is already a factor everyone experiences which tells them what to not touch, such as something really hot. They think, "Ouch! I won't touch that again because it hurts." It only makes sense to use the same concept for teaching children right from wrong. "I won't do the wrong thing again because I'm going to end up hurt."

Am I wrong on any of this? It's kind of long, so sorry about that. I'm just trying to think this through logically. 
Also, I haven't discussed this with anyone yet, so this is kind of me figuring out what I believe right here.

Edit: This is all mainly for younger kids. Once they get older, and know right from wrong, then the "CONSEQUENCE should fit the crime," as TwinRetro said.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

Whenever I was spanked/belted, my dad always spoke to me afterwards in a calm voice about WHY it happened. It's not like he came home from work and was like "OY PRICK! COME HERE! YOU DO THIS?! *SMASH SMASH SMASH*"


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## Infinite Zero (Dec 8, 2010)

My dad used to spank me when I was a li'l kid. I can say that I act well enough. My siblings weren't spanked and hit that much anymore, and oh boy. There are freakin' naughty!


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## Tonitonichopchop (Dec 8, 2010)

I was spanked as a kid. I think that it if used by a smart parent, it helps the child's behavior by showing them they can't always have what they want and will be punished for doing something wrong. My mom spanked me until I was 9, and we're really close and I behave better than a lot of people I know. But I guess in today's politically correct world that doesn't make sense.


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## GundamXXX (Dec 8, 2010)

I will reply but I wont vote

As a parent myself kids DEFINATLY deserve a tap/spank but NEVER belt your kids.

If my kid keeps touching the christmas tree when repeadatly is beign told no then yes I will give his hand a tap when he does it again and I will look at him with a stern look (inside is ofcoutrse melting with his cute puppyeyes that twinkle with deviance) and tell him "Didnt daddy tell you no? Listen to daddy otherwise you will get another tap on the finger k?"

He usually does it again and I will tap him again because hes a smartass that needs to learn to not mess with daddy and stops after that

But a hit/slap/anything worse then that is uncalled for. Its a goddamn kid ffs

But then again when my kid is 17 or 18 and he fucks up bigtime Il challange him to a fistfight and if I loose ill kick him out


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## RPG_Lover (Dec 8, 2010)

If only the attitudes in this thread were shared with society. I was spanked as a kid - either by hand or belt. It was only done when necessary. There's a difference in discipline and abuse. Discipline is a few shots to the rear-end (_not full force, but hard enough to get the message across_) when needed. Abuse is beating a child mercilessly. 

Kids *need* discipline. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is very true. Look around just about any store. Kids will be crying for stuff, have a fit, and will get what they want because the parents only want to shut their kid up. Because a lot of parents believed those pseudo-psychological idiots that said "don't spank your kids - it'll harm their personality" we now have a generation of parents that would rather be their kid's friend than be a parent. As such, we'll soon have a generation of people that can't function under societal rules because they never had rules in their homes growing up.


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## Goli (Dec 8, 2010)

It is child abuse.
I think spanking and all that is for incompetent parents who don't know how to deal with the problems EVERY kid has. There are other ways to deal with such things.
I've never had it mainly because I didn't shout or scream or do stupid things like most kids do but I know my parents wouldn't have hit me if I did.


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## MasterM (Dec 8, 2010)

Violence instead of talking?
Honestly, what is there to discuss?

And attitude "my parents did it and it worked so I will do it to my child" is the worst excuse because one doesnt have to find other (infinitely better) ways to cope with that problem so no thinking involved.

I wish some people in that thread rethink their attitude and use common sense.

*If ur child doesnt listen to you - its YOUR FAULT,  not his/her.* Cant capitalize this enough.


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## thegame07 (Dec 8, 2010)

My tone of voice is enough for my niece and friends kids to listen to me! they just need to know when you mean business. I don't mean I scream my head of like I would do an adult, you just need to know how to do it tbh. In extreme cases I would say a spanking would be efficient. I have seen kids spit in their own mums face, How people let their kids get to that stage baffles me. Also for older kids you just have to teach them that their stuff will be confiscated for a few days if they don't cut out the crap.

I was beat up off my dad like an adult all my life! I have forgave him for it as he had a mental illness when I was younger. I used to get smacked with the belt so hard for no reason and I would have marks on me for weeks at a time. I remember one day when I was like 10, My dad was trying to fight me one on one like a proper adult. I think he used to feel guilty afterwards and would buy me whatever I wanted but that doesn't work. I love my mum with all my heart but I can't forgive her for letting him do it, he didn't hit my mum at all, if he did I wouldn't be speaking to him now.


If you bring your kids up right hitting is not required imo.


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## boktor666 (Dec 8, 2010)

Well.. to be honest, I don't think it would hurt to "spank" the kids more often. The news has been flooding over with child abuse and all that crap, but parents forgot about the attitude of the kids. 

Kids who aren't being corrected, becuase their parents don't want to, or are too soft, may end up having kids that are complete pricks. Myself, I'm 16 years old, but I know when I'm right or wrong. I was well raised. (Konata style: Good job parents)
But more and more kids, yes, I do see this happening, at my school, are becoming selfish egoistic douches. There is one pattern: They all want to belong to the group, regardless how you act. Even if they break more then 6 rules at school, skipping class very often, getting bad grades, they don't seem to care. The parents should act, to stop this MADNESS, but it isn't happening at all, they keep doing the usual. They all do tend to listen to... Rap music? (probably no factor at all, but in this country, rap music can be a cause, but thats a too long story to tell in this thread, since I'm completley overloading my hands writing this)

*Inhale, deep breath* 

Thus... conclusion, the parents should be more strict to raise their lazy bum ass kiddo's, else they will do the same to their own kids, continuing the generation of douches.

Peace out.


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## Vulpes Abnocto (Dec 8, 2010)

I look around here and see hundreds of kids that should have been beaten more.


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## Midna (Dec 8, 2010)

My parents hit me on the bare ass with no trousers or pants on. That still seems a bit weird to me.


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## Waynes1987 (Dec 8, 2010)

This is a tough one this one. I mean It's based on your own understanding as a parent, to find a fitting punishment. 

I dont think Giving a kid a smack stops them doing it again, If anything it'll make them hide it better. I know this from personal experience.  

Someone said "parents shouldnt try to be best friends with there children" But i disagree, Most 'little shits' out there are little shits because of (but not limited to) issues at home. How is smacking a child like that, with them issues going to help them in the long run, if anything it'll make them feel more alienated. 

But then again, If the punishment fits the crime, Who knows. Smacking your kid because "i was smacked as a child" Isnt a valid reason for that style of discipline. 
There are after all, more ways of disciplining your child.  

The fact you let your emotions (aka anger / etc) get involved with it so much that you pick up a belt or paddle. (or whatever) is actually pretty sick and disgusting. If you think about it like that, your smacking a child because they have annoyed you, and not because what they have done. 

Which is why i believe it depends on cercumstance, how a parent is with there child when things are "good". Otherwise it does more bad than good. 
But thats just my opinion.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm curious, to the people who say "THERE ARE INFINITELY BETTER WAYS" than to spank a child, list them.

If you speak to them and tell them no or whatever, and you raise your voice and what not, and they're still being little shits,  what else can you do? If you don't keep the child in line, they're going to just walk all over you because there's no punishment.

"Oh my parents said not to, oh well, what are they gonna do."

But still, list what these infinitely better ways are.


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## MrCooper (Dec 8, 2010)

Yes it is abuse if you do it every time the child gets in trouble. This should only be done if the child is in some deep shyt.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 8, 2010)

Why is there a "No" option and an "I deserved it" option? Spankings/beltings are usually given because the child deserved it because if they didn't, it's actually abuse, in my opinion.

Hey, when a kid is being an asshole more than usual, you have to give them a scare or an actual hand/belt. When done in moderation, it won't fuck a kid up emotionally. Sometimes you need other methods of punishment.

Hell, if I have a son, I plan on getting into a friendly fight with him in his teenage years at least once a year. Toughens them up, and it's bonding!


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

Those options are there because it's my Poll and I can do whatever I want, such as spanking a child. I should have the right to do that if he's being a douche bag.


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## Waynes1987 (Dec 8, 2010)

Yeah but what if theres no stability? 

The thing worse than spanking a child is it becoming a routine, If It works why do you have to keep doing it? 
The parent becomes used to hitting there child, I mean your not supposed to want to beat them......

I agree with Mrcooper if its fitting than a hand, but never a belt. (a belts a weapon meant to cause more pain, The purpose shouldnt be about causing your child pain, it should be more about the shock then anything) 
Discipline is about adaptation. I couldnt list possible ways of doing it differently with out a actual setting because most forms of disipline mean taking something away from a child be it a "right" of somesort. 

If you want the right to smack your child though, I suggest you never do.


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## Ace (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm 15, and I went through my childhood with only one spanking. It happened more than a decade ago, and I can admit I was acting like a total assface. But the most funny thing is that I must have subconsciously repressed the spanking experience, because I have no recollection of it. Is this a good or a bad thing? I find it good; the one time I did screw up horribly bad, I realized it was something I could easily forget.

Throughout my current teen years, I am obviously more rebellious towards my parents form of punishments, mostly confiscations of iPod, NDS, ALL Internet cut off at 22.30, etc. However, I have never once found myself to be grounded. I remember being twelve years old and asking why my parents wouldn't ground me. Simple answer was given: It's good for you to spend time with your friends. At that time, I went to a school with friends I didn't quite like, and they didn't like me either. It didn't exactly matter, too. Staying indoors and playing some damn games for a few weeks gets boring after 2 days.

This is coming from somebody who was a pain to raise according to my parents, and still came out to be a relatively okay person.

As surprisingly few people have said: The most important thing is to adapt the consequence/punishment/CALLITWHATYOULIKE to the actions caused by the child. I wouldn't go pimp slapping a child just because he's throwing a fit in the mall. I would probably slap his/her hand lightly, to get the point through.

It saddens me A LOT to see Swedish parents completely failing at communicating their parental control, even at a casual level with them. They just lure the kids into some new thing, the kid finds something new to fuzz over, and the process repeats. And trust me, ever since I was like 6 years old, I've wanted to deal a fair punishment to these Swedish kids. But not only them. I'd also get angry with the parents. They need to learn how to do something. And Sweden has some pretty harsh laws for corporal punishment, ever since the 80's.

In finality, I sort of wish my parents were stricter with their punishments when I was younger. It makes any punishment now feel quite crushing. And most times I've made something my dad would feel disappoint over, I'd understand why he would be, without him telling. Even though I was in an environment where I made my own choices, my parents would respond with not an opinion, but an emotion instead. I wouldn't always trust those emotions, naturally, but they often said more than words.


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## MasterM (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> If you speak to them and tell them no or whatever, and you raise your voice and what not, and they're still being little shits,  what else can you do?
> It means u failed parenthood.
> Teaching responsibility revolves around principle of reward and punishment (it doesnt have to be physical and definitely shouldnt be one).
> 
> QUOTE(Ace Faith @ Dec 8 2010, 05:19 PM) It saddens me A LOT to see Swedish parents completely failing at communicating their parental control, even at a casual level with them.


Thats the key issue im writing about.

I have to admit its very wise for a 15 year old to understand it.


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## Goli (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> I'm curious, to the people who say "THERE ARE INFINITELY BETTER WAYS" than to spank a child, list them.
> 
> If you speak to them and tell them no or whatever, and you raise your voice and what not, and they're still being little shits,  what else can you do? If you don't keep the child in line, they're going to just walk all over you because there's no punishment.
> 
> ...


Yes but violence isn't the only punishment. You can take away the kids toys or whatever he really likes such as the computer, consoles, etc. You can ignore the kid too, ignore not as in let him starve to death obviously, ignore as in just continue as if nothing was happening, eventually kids get tired. There are plenty of other ways I probably can't think of right now. 
The other problem I find with spanking and all that is that when parents do it, many kids perceive that as something "normal", then when they're in school or in some other activity which involves interactions with others they resort to violence too. Many "bullies" bully other kids because they're spanked, hit and who knows what else, so they think it's fine for them to do the same. And then when they grow up they hit their wives and kids too, it's a big vicious circle.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> It means u failed parenthood.



Not it doesn't. If the kid isn't listening to you, that doesn't mean you failed parenthood. Jeez, what kind of parent are you?


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## Waynes1987 (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
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If your kid isnt listening to you it means you failed at teaching them respect. 
And were  talking no listening at all here. Because kids rebel against there parents its all part of growning up.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

Fuck dude, like 95% of kids don't listen to their parents, you telling me 95% failed parenthood? Hell I'm sure there's something that poster has problem with his kids, I could easily say he failed parenthood because of it.

Also, I never listened to my parents as a child. I didn't listen to anybody. I got yelled at a lot, it wasn't until I started... you know what, not even going to try here, clearly talking to someone who thinks spanking someone is abuse.


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## emigre (Dec 8, 2010)

I wouldn't go as far to say its child abuse, but it isn't the type of parenting I would want to engage in if I were to become a parent. I was actually never hit as a child as punishment and actually had quite a upbringing where I enjoyed almost limitless liberty. I should add my parents aren't educated middle-class liberal lefties but Bangladeshi immigrants, who don't have a single formal qualification between them. And apart from a crippling problem of self-doubt, I've turned out ok-ish. I'm in higher education and I've never been in trouble with the authorities.

With hitting a child as punishment, I have to say it seems the parenting of failure. It is possible to raise a child well without resorting to that. I know some people reading this would dismiss my view as liberal nonsense but I see no correlation between smacking and the result of the child into adulthood. I have two older sisters and the older was the only one of us to have been hit as a child. And for her is has casued long term damage, as a child, our mum used to hit her for not eating her lunch. And becasue she didn't want to be hit, she would eat her lunch. When she older she found out, our mohter would give her lunch less than two hours after she sould eat something at nursary. And she's had a problem with flucturating weight. And hence I would associate hitting with bad parenting.

I would also say hitting doesn't aid a child in knowing good or bad but good communication and how much time you spend with the child. My mother is a horrible communicater and has never spent any quality time with me. Throughout my life, I've never had a good relationship with her. She thinks I'm stupid and quite ashamed of me. My father on the other hand would spend time with me, I remember him taking me to the park to play football numerous times. I get along much better with him and he thinks higher of me. In adulthood, I'm much more appreciative of dad despite I would only see two hours a day due to his job as chef where my mohter was a homemaker. My sister has two young children and they clearly think more of my dad than my mother. Though I wouldn't go as far to say I hat my mother, I do hold feelings of resent towards her. I know she loves me but she knows very little of me, to go as far as her not knowing what I'm studying at University. 

With parenting its much more complicated than what it may appear to be. I'm no parent but I am an uncle and I've found working on having a relationship with the child tends to be fruitfull. I have a niece and nephew and get along brilliantly with both of them, yes they get on my nerves but I want the best for them. Hence for me, making sure I have good relationship with them where I can communicate with them is more beneficial for their upbringing.


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## ThePowerOutage (Dec 8, 2010)

As long as is called for, it's not done as a spur of the moment thing and it's explained why its happened, im fine with it. If those things don't happen then that's when other stuff happens. 
Hey, the idea of inflicting pain to teach a lesson comes from nature. (I.e Stay the hell away from wasps)
It certainly help drill in a message.
Though another thing, I think it should be done in private unless the Kid is really acting up, like say, tripping up old ladies in Asda.
As long as it isn't abused, then it isn't abuse.
Tis comes from someone still on th recording end.


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## _Chaz_ (Dec 8, 2010)

If a child is out of line, sometimes it's the only way.

Eventually they learn that verbal warnings aren't shit.


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## MelodieOctavia (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Fuck dude, like 95% of kids don't listen to their parents, you telling me 95% failed parenthood? Hell I'm sure there's something that poster has problem with his kids, I could easily say he failed parenthood because of it.
> 
> Also, I never listened to my parents as a child. I didn't listen to anybody. I got yelled at a lot, it wasn't until I started... you know what, not even going to try here, clearly talking to someone who thinks spanking someone is abuse.



yeah because 95% is a totally legit statistic.

Ignoring that, what you and most people fail to realize is that fear does not equal respect. In fact Most of the time when there is extensive fear through beating a child, all the respect is gone, thus children acting up because they don't respect their parents, thus more beatings, and so the vicious cycle goes.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

emigre said:
			
		

> mum used to hit her for not eating her lunch. And becasue she didn't want to be hit, she would eat her lunch.



Oh I don't mean things like that, even that seems a bit bad to me [different cultures obviously view differently], but I mean like throwing rocks, making a sibling cry because you hit them, ruining other people's property, throwing a fit and making a mess in the house at the same time your pissed off...


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## Evo.lve (Dec 8, 2010)

Personally I don't think it's child abuse, but they have to deserve it.

E.g. If I'm playing the piano, and I play a single note wrong, my dad will go spastic and 99% of the time hit me.


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## Slyakin (Dec 8, 2010)

Well, I get belted. Not too much, though.


I was strangled about 2 years ago, and after that, my dad sort of just resorted to plain belt. Also, punching me in the chest. And kicking me on the ground (once, thankfully).


I find it child abuse that he beats me like that, but groundings/MAYBE beatings can be necessary. It depends on the situation.

Is your child just being annoying? Don't beat him, just ground the kid if needed.

Did you child do something a lot worse? Then yes, beatings are fine.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

Evo.lve said:
			
		

> Personally I don't think it's child abuse, but they have to deserve it.
> 
> E.g. If I'm playing the piano, and I play a single note wrong, my dad will go spastic and 99% of the time hit me.
> 
> ...


Not everybody fears their parents though. I got spanked a lot, and I also got hit with the belt more, and harder. Do I fear my parents? Not one bit.

Also not everybody who was spanked, doesn't respect their parents.


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## Slyakin (Dec 8, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Not everybody fears their parents though. I got spanked a lot, and I also got hit with the belt more, and harder. Do I fear my parents? Not one bit.
> 
> Also not everybody who was spanked, doesn't respect their parents.


Yeah, I respect my mom.

My dad? Well...


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 8, 2010)

Wait, I realized I just used the wrong wording, can you tell I'm tired?

I meant to say:

"*There are a lot of kids in the world who weren't spanked as a child, and they don't respect their parents.*"


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## Pyrmon (Dec 8, 2010)

I was a good kid and I never got spanked, but my prick of a father was(and still is) using psychological violence. And he did abuse my older siblings before so it scared the shit out of me when he yelled. And he yelled a lot for no reason. He used to scream and yell and call us names for stupid little mistakes we did. He also threatened to break things that were dear to me, several times. He doesn't do that as much now, but he still is. Let me say, I would have much preferred a little spanking and a discussion afterwards during the first 7 or 8 years of my life than to live in fear that he'll start yelling and throwing stuff until I move out.

Abuse is very serious and leaves scars for a long time. Even I have anger management issues because of my father. Spanking is really not abuse, belting either.


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## ThatDudeWithTheFood (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't think its abuse but I definitely don't support it belts hurt like crap!


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## ineap09 (Dec 8, 2010)

TwinRetro said:
			
		

> ShadowSoldier said:
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You're right, fear does not equal respect. But you respect your parents for loving you enough to make you fear the consequences of doing wrong so you don't hurt yourself or others.

Plus, children shouldn't fear their parents, they should just fear the consequence of doing wrong. As long as the parent isn't abusively beating the child without reason, the child shouldn't fear the parent just because they are the bringers of justice...right?


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## Goli (Dec 9, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Fuck dude, like 95% of kids don't listen to their parents, you telling me 95% failed parenthood? Hell I'm sure there's something that poster has problem with his kids, I could easily say he failed parenthood because of it.
> 
> Also, I never listened to my parents as a child. I didn't listen to anybody. I got yelled at a lot, it wasn't until I started... you know what, not even going to try here, clearly talking to someone who thinks spanking someone is abuse.
> Until I started cutting you mean. Cutting isn't something healthy, maybe you resort to it because you were abused as a child.
> ...


There are a lot of kids in the world who weren't spanked as a child, and they do respect their parents.
Like I said on my previous post, it just creates a vicious circle. Since nobody replied to it I'll just assume "silence is assent" as they say.


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## nutella (Dec 9, 2010)

If you're going to hit a child, then I would say use it not as a punishment but as a way of establishing authority. As long as you're not causing any physical injury to the child, it's okay in my book. Thing is, kids are taught that everything is child abuse these days so a lot of them are rebelling against their parents. It's a hard issue to debate, because every child is different.


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## narutofan777 (Dec 9, 2010)

spanking, belting is child abuse. cause i got fucked up mentally. when they keep goin' at it, its hard for them to stop. i guess it just depends on how bad u got fucked. lol


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 9, 2010)

ripandsip said:
			
		

> spanking, belting is child abuse. cause i got fucked up mentally. when they keep goin' at it, its hard for them to stop. i guess it just depends on how bad u got fucked. lol



If it's hard for a parent to stop, they're not fit to be parents.


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## Waynes1987 (Dec 9, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> ripandsip said:
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Says you? You said and i qoute from memory "i should have the right to spank my kid if hes being a duchebag"  Thats the sign of a abusive personality, Surely the discussions about a parents right to discipline there child?

Theres another thing interesting about the quoted statement,  You put he, Is that to suggest that you dont condone smacking ur child if its a daughter? 
Your form of discipline shouldnt depend on what sex the child is.  I expect the typical Smack happy family with that ideology about discipline would actually create a more emotional torn male.  

Like someone said it depends on the child. If its abuse or not, depends on reasonings. And how fair the parenting is to all children involved in the family.


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## ineap09 (Dec 9, 2010)

Goli said:
			
		

> ShadowSoldier said:
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I've had both kinds of punishment. Spankings, and then once I reached a certain age, it was just taking away things I really liked. They both work as punishments, but they are different. When I knew a spanking was a possibility, I would rarely take a chance on doing something wrong. However, if I knew that all that would happen is to take away video games for a week, I would be much more apt to testing how close I can get without getting the punishment - therefore I learned manipulation(which is something I know to be very bad, and I've mostly been able to get over it by now(but not completely >_


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## Devin (Dec 9, 2010)

I got the George Forman Grilling Spatula.... I still have the GF logo on me...


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## MMead (Dec 9, 2010)

Only suitable for minors?:

Schoolchildrens' "spanking" related injuries (WARNING - These images may be deeply disturbing to some viewers. Do not open this page if children are present).
http://www.nospank.net/injuredkids.pdf

Reasonable and moderate? You decide. 
(WARNING - This sound recording may be deeply disturbing to some listeners. Do not open this file if children are within listening range). 
http://nospank.net/prj-006.wav


People used to think it was necessary to "spank" adult members of the community, college students, military trainees, and prisoners. In some countries they still do. In our country, it is considered sexual battery if a person over the age of 18 is "spanked", but only if over the age of 18.

For one thing, because the buttocks are so close to the anal region, sex organs, and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, striking them can trigger powerful and involuntary sexual stimulus in some people. There are numerous physiological ways in which it can be intentionally or unintentionally sexually abusive, but I won't list them all here. One can read the testimony, documentation, and educational resources available from the website of Parents and Teachers Against Violence In Education at www.nospank.net  

Child bottom-battering vs. DISCIPLINE:

Child bottom-battering (euphemistically labeled "spanking","swatting","switching","smacking", "paddling",or other cute-sounding names) for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.

Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

There are several reasons why child bottom-battering isn't a good idea. Here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak
http://www.nospank.net/pt2010.pdf

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson
http://nospank.net/sdsc2.pdf

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor MD and Adah Maurer PhD
http://nospank.net/taylor.htm

Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child bottom-battering isn't a good idea:

American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association,
Center For Effective Discipline,
Churches' Network For Non-Violence,
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child.

In 31 nations, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child. The US also has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

The US states with the highest crime rates and the poorest academic performance are also the ones with the highest rates of child corporal punishment. 

There is simply no evidence to suggest that child bottom-battering instills virtue.


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## xmrnogatcox (Dec 9, 2010)

I completely agree with what you posted.  Spanking where a long-term mark is left on the body is excessive.

On the other hand, spanking to get a young child to comply is something that is needed in today's times.  Children have no fear now when it comes to getting in trouble.  You got grounded?  Boo Hoo.  You'll have to stay inside and play video games and watch TV for a weekend.  WOW... terrible punishment.  I bet you won't do it again next weekend.

Children need to have some level of fear of consequences.  Look at adulthood.  If you act like a fool in public, you may get you ass handed to you by someone who gets pissed enough.  

I restate that I believe excessive spanking is considered abuse.  There is no reason to make someone black and blue because they aren't complying.  A swift kick in the ass will sometimes bring you back to reality though.

I will state that I am probably older than a lot of the people posting in this thread (well, most of them).  I used to get spanked when I was disobaying my parents orders and all it did was make me afraid to step out of line.  It made me think twice about doing anything that would upset my folks.  I think it made me a better person because of it.


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## ineap09 (Dec 9, 2010)

MMead said:
			
		

> Only suitable for minors?:
> 
> Schoolchildrens' "spanking" related injuries (WARNING - These images may be deeply disturbing to some viewers. Do not open this page if children are present).
> http://www.nospank.net/injuredkids.pdf
> ...


It completely makes sense that those willing to do crimes and don't care about education would also have a high probability of physical abuse to children. This is not proof that spanking is bad. This is proof that violent people are going to be violent to their kids by taking something that can be used properly, spanking, and taking it to harmful extremes.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 9, 2010)

Waynes1987 said:
			
		

> Says you?Oooh I struck a chord with somebody.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Omg, I didn't put she?! I guess that means I don't condone it now do I? If I put she and not he, you'd think the same wouldn't you? Just because I didn't put "he/she" or "the child" doesn't mean I play favorites or anything like what you're thinking. But also, it doesn't take a genius to know that majority of troublemakers in young ages, is the boys. But I wasn't referring to that, but whatever.


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## Tokyo Jihen (Dec 9, 2010)

Spanking is fine. With a belt? I don't think so. I've experienced my fair share of discipline, but never to the extent of being hit with a belt or something that I would think is "extreme". I'm old enough now that my parents rarely hit me, since I'm taller than them (but they're still heavier and stronger, haha), but I don't think I misbehaved when I was a kid either. I suffer more verbal discipline than physical discipline, but truth be told, I'd rather get one quick slap to the head then getting yelled at for an hour. Either way, discipline is definitely not abuse, and as long as there's no blood, the damage is not permanent (physically, mentally for some, I don't know), and it's for a reason (and the punishment isn't excessive), then it's a parent's choice, because it isn't abuse.


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## Goli (Dec 9, 2010)

ineap09 said:
			
		

> No one replied to any of my posts either. Does that mean I should assume "silence is assent" as well?
> You decide. I think not.
> 
> 
> ...


Discipline is definitely not abuse. Corporal punishment is.


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## Waynes1987 (Dec 9, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Waynes1987 said:
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Your defenciveness isnt needed lol 
no cord struck. 
i think its interesting how people word things.
saying a childs being a duchebag doesnt really mean when they've done something wrong, kids are kids. 
Perhaps your statement was taken from when you were alittle bit defencive against someone elses point. who knows. 

Typically a statement like that is a sign of an abusive personality. 
And if it wasnt for how you were replying to people, id probably think i was wrong. 

Heres a question, what would you class as a reason to smack a kid then?


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 9, 2010)

Goli said:
			
		

> Don't you think that if parents knew how to communicate with their children properly in the first place they wouldn't resort to child abuse?
> 
> Not all kids listen though. Even if you speak to them in a calm manner, angry manner, strict manner or anything. Some kids just choose to not pay attention.
> 
> QUOTEwhat would you class as a reason to smack a kid then?



Say the kid is throwing rocks at cars or something destructive. Give them a speaking to. If they don't listen or they do it next time, bam, spanking.


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## ineap09 (Dec 9, 2010)

Goli said:
			
		

> ineap09 said:
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This sounds right.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 9, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Those options are there because it's my Poll and I can do whatever I want, such as spanking a child. I should have the right to do that if he's being a douche bag.


Haha what's up with the defensiveness? All I stated was that the option "No," and "I/My child may have deserved it" are basically saying the same thing. Unless you're trying to tell me "No" implies you can hit your kid whenever you want.


Whatever you want? Eh, only if, as you said, he's being a douche bag. Otherwise you sound incredibly immature.

However I will say you need to have patience and be assertive. 

"Son/Daughter get over here."
"No! *Laughs*"
"RAAAAAGE!"

Personally, I see hitting my kid as an absolute last resort.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 9, 2010)

Uncle FEFL said:
			
		

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Not being defensive. Just didn't have an answer for you. I didn't want just "Yes/No" So I typed whatever popped into my brain.


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## fgghjjkll (Dec 10, 2010)

If your parents know how to talk, they don't need physical punishment.

Now, just so you know, I do not have a criminal record, don't smoke, actually have morals, get decent-excellent grades etc etc.

Depending on the situation, I do not think physical punishment is necessary for many cases unless you did something extremely serious like killing a bird or bashing up a guy at school, but you'd prolly need counselling then so maybe one step lower from that seriousness.

I have almost never been hit in my lifetime. My parents know how to talk and they make me feel my guilt.


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## ineap09 (Dec 10, 2010)

fgghjjkll said:
			
		

> If your parents know how to talk, they don't need physical punishment.
> 
> Now, just so you know, I do not have a criminal record, don't smoke, actually have morals, get decent-excellent grades etc etc.
> 
> ...


Where does guilt come from? It comes from knowing you did something wrong. How did you know what you did was wrong? You're parents must have taught you. How did they teach you? Was that when one of the hits in your lifetime was? If it was, then do think it was abuse that they did that? If it wasn't, do you mind sharing how you originally knew right from wrong? Or is that reaching to far back?

It seems the basis is that if you are a good parent, you will not have to resort to physical punishment *very often*, but it seems like it may benefit the child to have it at least 1-few times in their life and then use guilt to set them on the right track in the future? Is that right?

[rambling]
What if you're not a good parent though? Does that mean the parent has to go through a parenting class or something? Should they have to give up their children? 

[randomly inserted here before posting]About your first sentence, does that mean that if parents DON'T know how to talk, they DO need physical punishment?[/randomly inserted here before posting]

What if the parent is just an 'okay' parent? They can't control their child's guilt by just speech. Should we refuse them one of the only alternative ways of making sure the child knows to not do wrong by calling it abuse? What alternative is there? 

Let's see, we have:
1. Guilt inducing speech.
2. Physical punishment.
3. The taking away of privileges.
4. ?
5. Profit. [/meme]

Is there any other way to make children stop doing wrong? The best way does seem to be Guilt inducing speech, but first of all, that's not possible until the child knows right from wrong. Second of all, what if the parent isn't good at that for any amount of reasons? "OMG! BAD PARENT!" Is that true? Not everyone can share the same abilities as everyone else, right? Or is that something everyone can do? (I'd like an answer from someone. Preferably one who give reasons/examples for why they believe that.)

But this doesn't even mention the children who might feel guilty, but still do the wrong anyway. That takes #1 out right there. Is it the parents fault for the child doing wrong despite feeling guilty? This seems like a debate question that cannot be proven by either side. I take the side of "No, it's not the parents fault, some kids just do wrong despite knowing the consequences and feeling guilty." This is because I've know an innumerable amount of kids who will do wrong despite guilt, and I find it hard to believe that every single one of the parents of those kids are bad parents. I think this comes down to: It depends on the kid. Perhaps there are little angels that only need to feel guilt to not do something wrong their entire lives. 
[/rambling]

Sorry, I don't really feel like I'm being very good at organizing my thoughts.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 10, 2010)

fgghjjkll said:
			
		

> If your parents know how to talk, they don't need physical punishment.



As I have stated, not ALL kids listen though. No matter what the parent is saying or how they're saying it.


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## Shinigami357 (Dec 10, 2010)

In my opinion, yes, it is child abuse. Discipline and respect are *not* ideas that are best taught by lessons derived in pain. That is not to say you should allow a child to grow up a delinquent. Just make sure you don't ever physically harm (intentionally or otherwise) a child, because that just makes matters worse.


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## ineap09 (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> Discipline and respect are *not* ideas that are best taught by lessons derived in pain.


What should the lessons be derived in then, may I ask?


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## Midna (Dec 10, 2010)

Given how ShadowSoldier has hung around here every second of the way in this thread, defending physical punishment toward children, I'm guessing he made this thread to get people to agree with him and feel justified in his actions. Nice one, mate.


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## Shinigami357 (Dec 10, 2010)

ineap09 said:
			
		

> Shinigami357 said:
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Well, that depends on the person. Generally speaking, lessons derived from personal experience tends to be one of the best way to learn. Of course, we can't allow all lessons to be learned that way, so there's always learning from association or interaction with others. The most important people to associate and interact with being parents, of course, and hitting a child would be detrimental toward that goal, I think you'd agree. Then there's learning from instruction or precedence, because humans, as a species tend to face the same basic challenges throughout history, and as such, when a person or verifiable historical record offers enlightenment in such cases, it wold be best to listen that we may learn.

There's a lot more ways, all of which can be achieved without the need for physical (and in extension, psychological) battering of any sort.


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## xakota (Dec 10, 2010)

Spanking is the only conceivable way to raise good children. My little brother has been spanked since birth, and he is the most perfect kid you can imagine. My cousin his age, on the other hand, is parented almost exactly the same way my brother is, but instead of spanking he gets "Time outs". And I love my cousin, but he is a little shit. Spanking works. I don't care if liberal morons make it against the law someday, it's how I'm going to raise my kids. It's the only way. Kids need to learn there are consequences to their actions.


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## Midna (Dec 10, 2010)

But the consequences in this case are arbitrary, contrived and imposed by the parents. I'd rather think it might teach a few kids that they _can't let their parents find out_ when they've done something wrong.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 10, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> Given how ShadowSoldier has hung around here every second of the way in this thread, defending physical punishment toward children, I'm guessing he made this thread to get people to agree with him and feel justified in his actions. Nice one, mate.



Try again buddy, I have multiple tabs open. Right now, I have Facebook, Kotaku, [censored], GameTrailers, Digg, and a bunch of GBAtemp tabs open so I don't forget the threads. Nice attempt at trying to troll me though.


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## GamerzInc (Dec 10, 2010)

I'm completely for it.  Children nowadays are complete badasses.  I think spanking is great, and when they're of age and deserve it, the belt is fine too.  A good whoopin keeps a child straight and less likely to get in trouble.  I think it teaches discipline.  I was extremely mischievous and I know that spankings straightened me out.  Did I deserve them? Yes...most of them were deserved and I knew why I was getting them.  That said, I was never spanked or belted when I didn't deserve it.  After a certain age the hand does not work, it's too soft.

All that said, I've been spanked, belted, switched, poled, lol.  My friends have had that and more, lots lots worse.  We've never called it abuse.  Different parenting stiles though.  My mom/dad would have never punished us the way my friends were, but then again, my friends were huge and built.  XD  Different styles.  People complaining about abuse probably do have issues in their head.  Well, they can't help how they turned out.  

We do need to continue the spankings/beatings when theyre well deserved.  As it stands I don't want my future in the hands of the youth of today.  The majority of them are loud, stupid, disrespectful, and are just a let down/disappointment.  They way they act saddens me.  Where did they go wrong?


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## Sterling (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

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But, you are leaving out that spanking doesn't have to be about pain. I firmly believe that if a parent starts "spanking" at a very young age (2 - 3), it really doesn't have to have "pain" attached to it. You can spank without leaving a mark, and a only a sting for a second or two, so where is the line of abuse drawn? You aren't being verbally abusing (name calling, degrading, etc), you aren't leaving marks, and psychologically speaking, teaching that there are consequences for wrong doing. Where is it bad, and why can it be called abuse when it works with proper administration. I respect personal choices, but to go as far as to argue that it is abuse is beyond me. After you get across the point that you are prepared to whack you offspring one or two, a simple threat will work. If they decide to test that a few years down the line, reinforce it. The line I draw is at age 13, where you're growing up very fast. Anything below is good enough to perhaps embarrass to hooey out of them knowing that you will back it up anytime and perhaps anywhere (hopefully you'll already have the point across). After you dole out the punishment sit down and talk to them, ask a few questions and ground/take something away.


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## Midna (Dec 10, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Midna said:
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The above has literally been said about every single generation throughout history.


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## ineap09 (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

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It takes time before the child has enough maturity to listen to someone or something like that without the need for fear of consequence.

The main thing I want to know from you, is how would you make your child learn to not disobey you(in regards to right and wrong)?

P.S. I agree with everything Argentum Vir just said.


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## Shinigami357 (Dec 10, 2010)

I can't believe I'll be doing this... *sigh*

I'm personally not one of those bleeding-heart activists who wouldn't hurt a fly. I can understand the concept of due reward and punishment as well as the next guy. However, in relation to children (from infancy right around to being teenagers) it is my solemn belief that an iron hand is not the way to go.

First of all, teaching discipline or whatever is not a struggle between parent and child, because no child is inherently "bad" so to speak. It is a struggle between the parent, the environment and in some cases the parent him-/herself. Turning on the child when the mind is still so impressionable for things that can't directly be attributed or blamed on the child will (in most cases) take root toward childhood trauma. A child might appear normal, continuing to live under fear of the "consequences" of his actions, but sooner or later, the fear disappears and the child is left with the impression that the *ONLY* way to settle things is with physical violence.

Seriously, I can see it just from reading some of the posts here. Clear evidence that hitting a child is no more a way to raise children as throwing your DS to the nearest wall is a way to fix a freeze; they're both stupid, inelegant and usually do not result in the way we want them to. It's all just a vicious circle. Can't you guys look past yourselves or the way you were raised and give it a chance?

Anyway, I think the root cause of why people insist on this way of "raising children" is due to the way the human brain is wired. As a human species, there's always a deep-seated "animalistic instinct" buried there. Like when people "snap" or something, the first instinct is violence. Sometimes it occurs in more subtle ways. It can be irritation, stress, whatever, but the first reaction is always to hit anything or anyone. In the case of some parents, the first thing is their child. It's all kinds of wrong and as can b e plainly seen by the views of some of our tempers, it's not something most people care about; they just adhere to the false ideology that hitting something equates to fixing it.


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## BORTZ (Dec 10, 2010)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> Whenever I was spanked/belted, my dad always spoke to me afterwards in a calm voice about WHY it happened. It's not like he came home from work and was like "OY PRICK! COME HERE! YOU DO THIS?! *SMASH SMASH SMASH*"


Good point.
I forgot that part when i typed my response.


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 10, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> No, I'm absolutely serious. It really does seem like you made this to get support and perceived justification.
> So you just keep all threads you post in perpetually in an open tab in case anyone replies? Strange...
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> I didn't say that. Now you're just twisting words around to make it look like you're right.
> ...



In other words, so I don't forget the threads or anything. Even threads I haven't started, I keep an open tab in them because otherwise, I forget they exist, and I never bother to come back or check them at all again. I've always been like that, it's never going to change. Deal with it.


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## Sterling (Dec 10, 2010)

@Shinigami: I think that reasoning is flawed. Looking at past abuse cases that have come to law it I can conclude that a good whack every once in a while for something a child KNOWS is wrong (and yet did it anyway) is NOT going to cause deep seated trauma unless there is a pre-existing condition with a child. I however see frequent spankings a problem. Especially if they turn violent. Never underestimate the power of the "Attitude Adjustment" (as my dad called it).


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## Shinigami357 (Dec 10, 2010)

Argentum Vir said:
			
		

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Abuse can be all kinds of things. Pain, by itself is either physical or psychological; the act of hitting creates both. You hit a sentient being, and not only do you push a physical stress towards its consciousness, but also its mental and psychological capacities. Children aren't exactly most perceptive towards which actions count for which ideas. Again, I stress hitting does *NOT* equate to  fixing a problem. It is only a placebo effect of sorts. We hit a child, he obeys and we think we are doing the right thing, but in essence, we are planting the idea that punishment is essential to learning, which it most certainly is not. Because sooner or later, that child *will* grow up and more than likely *will* have the same twisted sense of right/wrong and the idea that punishment is always the answer.

I can accept that there is no easy answer, but I will continue to believe that this form of "discipline" most certainly is *NOT* the right way to do things.


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## ineap09 (Dec 10, 2010)

Hah, sorry. You don't have to be pulled into this debate if you really don't want to.


			
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> First of all, teaching discipline or whatever is not a struggle between parent and child, because no child is inherently "bad" so to speak. It is a struggle between the parent, the environment and in some cases the parent him-/herself. Turning on the child when the mind is still so impressionable for things that can't directly be attributed or blamed on the child will (in most cases) take root toward childhood trauma. A child might appear normal, continuing to live under fear of the "consequences" of his actions, but sooner or later, the fear disappears and the child is left with the impression that the *ONLY* way to settle things is with physical violence.
> Everything you said here is completely accurate...if the parent isn't doing their job right. If the child is young enough were it doesn't understand right from wrong, they they can't do anything wrong. If something happens, it's the fault of the parent not the child. Once the child is old enough to know wrong from right, and they chose to disobey the parent by doing something wrong, they are old enough to know that it's the consequence for the wrong not the parent reaching back in their animal nature.
> 
> This leads me to another thing. NEVER SPANK IN ANGER. If you spank in anger, I can see the child receiving some trauma, but if you do it with love, it will not become childhood trauma because they will default the pain to what they did wrong, not the parent.
> ...


If you give physical punishment for a consequence for a wrong that the child knew was wrong, and do it with love(being calm making sure they know what they did wrong), this is no longer our inner beast coming out. If it does come out and we punish our children because of our lack of self-control, then that person isn't fit to be a parent until after therapy. That's what I think anyway.


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## Sterling (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> Abuse can be all kinds of things. Pain, by itself is either physical or psychological; the act of hitting creates both. You hit a sentient being, and not only do you push a physical stress towards its consciousness, but also its mental and psychological capacities. Children aren't exactly most perceptive towards which actions count for which ideas. Again, I stress hitting does *NOT* equate to  fixing a problem. It is only a placebo effect of sorts. We hit a child, he obeys and we think we are doing the right thing, but in essence, we are planting the idea that punishment is essential to learning, which it most certainly is not. Because sooner or later, that child *will* grow up and more than likely *will* have the same twisted sense of right/wrong and the idea that punishment is always the answer.
> 
> I can accept that there is no easy answer, but I will continue to believe that this form of "discipline" most certainly is *NOT* the right way to do things.


Like I said I can accept personal decisions, but as it stands I do not believe that proper administration of this punishment, and a good stern talking to about how things work in the house is a big deal. Sure what you say could be detrimental if it was not accompanied by a sit down and explanation. Which it seems many parents make such a mistake. Also doing the punishment outside of the house is not good at all. What my mother did is a great example of how you should treat tantrums at stores and such: I threw a fit over some toy at Toys R Us. My mom told me to stop it, and if I didn't she was going to walk out of the store without me. She did, and she waited by the entrance for me to get over it. Perfect example of how you don't have to hit someone for an 'Attitude Adjustment'.


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## ineap09 (Dec 10, 2010)

Argentum Vir said:
			
		

> I threw a fit over some toy at Toys R Us. My mom told me to stop it, and if I didn't she was going to walk out of the store without me. She did, and she waited by the entrance for me to get over it. Perfect example of how you don't have to hit someone for an 'Attitude Adjustment'.
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Also, I completely agree that spanking should not be out of the house. +1


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## Shinigami357 (Dec 10, 2010)

ineap09 said:
			
		

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There are various ways to circumvent that problem, and the way so many people miss it is shocking. For example, one can always appeal to the child's sense of empathy. A child has the unnatural capacity (unlike adults) to feel for the other person. ask him " how would you feel if some did the same thing to you? how would you  feel if you were in his situation?" etc etc. A child will always try to understand that such a thing is wrong, that the direct consequence of his action can affect others. again, I will repeat that in my opinion, hitting a child is a placebo effect devised to make parents feel like they are doing something. The consequences of an action need not be punishment for a person, because someone has already been hurt by it, why add to the overall suffering? Show him he is wrong, make him feel it. That's the way you communicate consequences to a child, not through some twisted, iron hand philosophy that only serves to complicate matters.

Seriously, consider it. A person's empathy is a better teaching tool than years and years of constant hitting. Think about what you'd feel if you make a mistake when didn't know better and got duly punished for it. Let me tell you, it would hurt you a lot.



PS
I would like to duly apologize to mods for multi-posting in rapid succession. I can't fit all these quotes in one post. Whew, debating 2 people at once takes a toll on you.


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## Shinigami357 (Dec 10, 2010)

Argentum Vir said:
			
		

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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the title/OP asking about belting/spanking by itself? He cleared it up 6 pages into the discussion (i.e. after i started making my point).  I was under the impression we were in a discussion based on that idea.


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## ineap09 (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> There are various ways to circumvent that problem, and the way so many people miss it is shocking. For example, one can always appeal to the child's sense of empathy. A child has the unnatural capacity (unlike adults) to feel for the other person. ask him " how would you feel if some did the same thing to you? how would you  feel if you were in his situation?" etc etc. A child will always try to understand that such a thing is wrong, that the direct consequence of his action can affect others. again, I will repeat that in my opinion, hitting a child is a placebo effect devised to make parents feel like they are doing something. The consequences of an action need not be punishment for a person, because someone has already been hurt by it, why add to the overall suffering? Show him he is wrong, make him feel it. That's the way you communicate consequences to a child, not through some twisted, iron hand philosophy that only serves to complicate matters.
> I believe empathy is truly a great way to teach a child to not do wrong. But in my experience, that doesn't always work. I've seen a child hit another child. The teacher appealed to the child's empathy. The child went back and hit the other child again a short time later. Empathy is great, but it doesn't always work like you make it sound.
> QUOTE(Shinigami357 @ Dec 10 2010, 03:03 AM) Seriously, consider it. A person's empathy is a better teaching tool than years and years of constant hitting. Think about what you'd feel if you make a mistake when didn't know better and got duly punished for it. Let me tell you, it would hurt you a lot.


I agree with this. It is a better tool than years of constant hitting, but one should not need to constantly hit. How many hits will it take for the child to listen to you after the first warning? Surely not enough to be named "years of constant hitting." 

I would feel hurt if I got punished for something when I didn't know better. This is why one should never physically punish their child unless they are absolutely sure their child knows what they did wrong. If they don't know yet, then it's time to teach them, not punish them. It's once they know they're doing wrong while doing it that it's punishment time.


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## ineap09 (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

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I don't know if Argentum Vir is going to answer or not, but I'm going to answer it anyway. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




It is about whether belting/spanking itself is child abuse. You are making points based on how parents who spank, do so constantly and with aggression. This is to clear up that we don't believe spanking is the only form of punishment. There are indeed different ways to punish, and that spanking is in the topmost tier of punishments, not the norm.


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## Fudge (Dec 10, 2010)

I don't think it's child abuse. Although I don't think I would ever belt my kids if I ever have any.


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## Sterling (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the title/OP asking about belting/spanking by itself? He cleared it up 6 pages into the discussion (i.e. after i started making my point).  I was under the impression we were in a discussion based on that idea.


No, you're not wrong. It already has been cleared up that when properly done it has little detrimental effects. A debate can change you see, and I made a new point that it should be a supplement not a solution. The way you talk is what happens if it is the solution to the behavior. Without a doubt spanking when used as the sole, or main punishment for issues is very detrimental to a relationship and psychological health. I agree and others agree there is no denying that. Since we have made that point clear there is no need to look back on that unless when used for reference or someone who posts without reading the whole topic.


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## Shinigami357 (Dec 10, 2010)

ineap09 said:
			
		

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Finally getting my point through even just a little. I understand life is life, not every method works the same way on different people. My point all along has been simple "cause and effect is best taught without raising a hand to a child". I can't preach for everyone (I'm not made for it) but I'd ask everyone to think about the child's future, because in one way or another, hitting your child is giving him wrong ideals. Making mistakes, being curious/naughty/careless is part of growing up, being human. I won't hit a child for being human, I'd rather guide him, show him that being human means being conscious and accountable for your actions. As long as a person can sense  the effects of his actions, he will learn. There is no need to raise a hand to him; hell, the real world is harsh enough.

All I'm saying is find another way. Please, there are plenty other means to teach and discipline, give it a chance.



PS

In hindsight, I re-read the topic and the OP actually cleared it up on the 2nd page, I just missed it until it was quoted in the 6th page. Man, I need a rest. Peace.


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## Deleted User (Dec 10, 2010)

Spanking has to be done....Some children need the rod(belt/hand) of correction....but some parents overdue.


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## Sterling (Dec 10, 2010)

Shinigami357 said:
			
		

> All I'm saying is find another way. Please, there are plenty other means to teach and discipline, give it a chance.
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TBH I don't have kids, and hopefully this won't change for a good 10 years. I have just drawn on personal experiences, and common sense. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Only been spanked 4 times in my entire remember able life, only once in relatively recent memory. I have not suffered, or been distraught. If anything it taught me respect for figures of authority who have the power to punish me.

EDIT: I have also had more problems over the years than most of my schoolmates and friends. Between bullies, mood disorders, and just general bitterness at life spanking was one of my least worries.


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## Aeladya (Dec 10, 2010)

Speaking from personal experience I went through abuse through my biological mother and she would beat my ass for the stupidest reasons, like me coughing while she was on the phone. Now I know the difference between spankings and abuse. My grandmother spanked my butt when I misbehaved and I turned out a lot better for it. Grounding me had no effect (mostly because I had very little friends and my family wanted me out of the house, not in it, I had a step-mom once who grounded me for wetting the bed and told me I needed to explain why I did it or I would stay grounded, I had a bladder problem, but apparently that was an excuse, so I was grounded for over a year until I moved back in with my grandparents), neither did having my nose against the wall. I deserved it when my grandmother punished me, but when my biological mother punished me it was just because she was mentally unstable and I wasn't going to kiss her ass like my sister did. Made me wonder sometimes if I was even her kid since I was the only one who wasn't going to play suck-up. Because of all of the abuse I suffered from her I have a plethora of mental problems. She's out of my life forever and she is someone I will never forgive, despite the fact that my cousin's mom (she's not my aunt anymore, their parents divorced) saying that I need to forgive her. There are just some things that you can't forgive and that's something that I refuse to ever do. She has no reason to be forgiven. I don't care how unstable she is.


There is a difference between child abuse and spankings. Some children should have been spanked as children as most of them are spoiled brats who get whatever they want. My step-sister is one of those kids, my youngest step-sister. She's now 18 and has been arrested a few times, she has also been sent to juvie for drug possession. Why? Because her mother refused to punish her, sometimes grounding the kid just doesn't cut it, especially when they sneak out or just ignore you. Oh yes and this step-sister of mine almost got on that show "World's Strictest Parents", but my step-mom said no. Seriously they called me up and asked if my step-mom would be interested. She doesn't want everyone knowing she's a crappy mother I guess. I was all for her getting on that show. The funny thing is, a week or two before they called, she was watching that show and she thought she was an angel compared to them. I kinda had to laugh at that. Anyway, if the kid knows what they did was wrong and just don't care I say let them get a spanking, but only as a last resort. Sometimes kids just don't get the message unless they get spanked.


Oh yeah I remember once I was told on Youtube (I commented to someone's video about making Thanksgiving Dinner) that having someone under the age of 18 do any chores is against the law and I could go to jail because it's considered child labor. That it's the parents job to wait on their kids hand and foot, treating them like royalty. I laughed and told them that having them help cook dinner wasn't going to kill them, I had to do it as a kid, and if they think I'm going to raise my future kids to be spoiled brats then they have another thing coming to them.


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## Sop (Dec 10, 2010)

Getting hit with belt is ouchies. Me no like.


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## FireGrey (Dec 10, 2010)

Yes but it wrecks the relationship with your father...


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## Sterling (Dec 10, 2010)

FireGrey said:
			
		

> Yes but it wrecks the relationship with your father...


Why does it have to be your father? My granddad, and mother did it as well. Hell if I acted up at my uncle's I would have got it there too.


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## fgghjjkll (Dec 10, 2010)

ineap09 said:
			
		

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1. Thank you for answering exactly why i have almost never been hit.
"..that's not possible until the child knows right from wrong.." (But back then, I just wanted adventure quest premium thing.. And plus, my friend stole the credit card off his mother anyways! not me :| )

2. Not everyone's mentality is equal. You might have a few rebels here who do not give a fucking shit about the consequences of what they are doing/going to do. But they are just seeking attention anyways. Perhaps they don't feel guilt at all and what they're doing, they think is right?

In that case, they need some counselling.

3. How a parent disciplines their child is up to them.
Whatever works. But i was just trying to point out that there are many methods of discipline other than physical abuse.


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## Youkai (Dec 10, 2010)

couldn't read everything but I read some pages and i share the opinion of most ppl here.

The Kids nowadays can't behave at all.

I for one was hit only 4 times in my whole lifetime but that was because I knew how to behave, if i would have done something wrong it would have been ok as long as the parent does not overdo it.

In a family i know the mother allways hit her son with some wood sticks untill they broke and that boy was only laughing after some time -.-V


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## ShadowSoldier (Dec 10, 2010)

fgghjjkll said:
			
		

> 3. How a parent disciplines their child is up to them.
> Whatever works. But i was just trying to point out that there are many methods of discipline other than physical abuse.



See I think you have a different definition of abuse compared to most. Abuse is... like overdoing it, going over board with the contact. Discipline is just correcting the child, no different than using a choke chain on a dog when they're out of line. You correct the dog. But if you continuously choke the dog even though the dog has already given you obedience, then THAT'S abuse.


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## fgghjjkll (Dec 10, 2010)

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Fine. Would "Pain-inflicted-onto-the-child-so-(s)he-can-learn-to-behave" work better?


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## Youkai (Dec 10, 2010)

fgghjjkll said:
			
		

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Well it does sound bad but still humans have a way of learning like something right/good gives you a good feeling (thats why drugs make you addicted) while wrong/bad things make you feel bad/hurt so you need to somehow make the kid feel bad be it trough talking which is very hard mostly cuz kids are stupid (yes they are and me and everyone else was stupid to !) so most parent that can't get trough with talking beat the child and I think as long as its not to much its ok.

If you would let your kid go with everything its extremly possible that you raise a future criminal.


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