# Why are JRPGs so Complex?



## AceWarhead (Aug 27, 2011)

sometimes, i would be playing a jrpg like final fantasy, and its so complex!
some times its the battle system
BUT most of the rimes, its the stats. Alot of them have like zillions of stats. It's mind-boggling.
discuss


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

Final Fantasy really isn't complex, there are other, much more complex ones.  Can't think of any at the moment, though.


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## ShadowSoldier (Aug 27, 2011)

Battling in Final Fantasy got different. FFX-2 was, imo, the last best battle system used.

But the stats and spells aren't hard to learn at all :/


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

You want complexity?

Play one of the Ultmia games (remember one where the inventory screen is really complex)


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

> You want complexity?
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> Play one of the Ultmia games (remember one where the inventory screen is really complex)


Though I will note that Ultima are Western RPGs.


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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Still, it's more complex then JRPGS imo.

JRPGs are really not that complex.


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## Spiderkid (Aug 27, 2011)

I've never found any Final Fantasy to be complex at all, though I haven't played V or XII. The only time I find a JRPG to be complex is when it's a ridiculous strategy/tactical thing (Disgaea, Cross-Edge, etc.), or when the item creation/customization gets out of hand (Star Ocean 3, Xenoblade, etc.)


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## Leo Cantus (Aug 27, 2011)

I understand what you mean, sometimes the stats and customization can be overwhelming. The battle systems vary across JRPG's. They follow the same basic turn based formula; but most are different, some complex and some basic. Take FF13 for example, great game but in battle most of the time you're just pressing X as the game automatically uses the best spells and attacks for you.


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## celeron53 (Aug 27, 2011)

Final Fantasy- Retrieve the "4" crystals and gather them in one place to be taken by the baddies, which summons the end of the world and fight the
baddies and win, and realize that the "4" crystals were not needed for the safety of the planet.

I think this covers FF 1-5

I dunno about the later FFs but- revolt against the current government


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

celeron53 said:
			
		

> Final Fantasy- Retrieve the "4" crystals and gather them in one place to be taken by the baddies, which summons the end of the world and fight the
> baddies and win, and realize that the "4" crystals were not needed for the safety of the planet.
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> I think this covers FF 1-5
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That's not what FF4 is about, AKAIK not 5 either, just the NES ones.


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## Leo Cantus (Aug 27, 2011)

celeron53 said:
			
		

> Final Fantasy- Retrieve the "4" crystals and gather them in one place to be taken by the baddies, which summons the end of the world and fight the
> baddies and win, and realize that the "4" crystals were not needed for the safety of the planet.
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> I think this covers FF 1-5
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Very basically covers them, there's actually a lot more to it than that, especially in 4. But whatever.


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## celeron53 (Aug 27, 2011)

I wasnt talking about Final Fantasy 4. I just referred to the amount of crystals, which is "4" because i didnt wanna spoil the plot.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

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You just said "That covers FF 1-5", that's not what 4 is about.


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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It's really opinion.

I just think it's more complex.


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## celeron53 (Aug 27, 2011)

im trying real hard to not sound like a troll, but wasnt FF4 about getting the crystals to save Rosa from Gomez. and in turn allowed them to go to the "place" of the final battle??


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

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How so?


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## Leo Cantus (Aug 27, 2011)

celeron53 said:
			
		

> im trying real hard to not sound like a troll, but wasnt FF4 about getting the crystals to save Rosa from Gomez. and in turn allowed them to go to the "place" of the final battle??


You must have played it a very long time ago, it's Golbez not Gomez! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyway, it's much more than that. But yes it involves crystals, so you're kind of right.


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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How people view how complex things are.

I may find things complex but others don't.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

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That's not what I meant -_-, I'm not that stupid

I meant "why?".


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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Oh, sorry, I thought you meant what I said first about it being opinion.

Well, it just seems more complex to me then to the more modern and old RPGS to me. Not saying that's bad, but that's how I feel.

It's just the way Ultima plays that makes it seem complex to me is all.


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## Necron (Aug 27, 2011)

Most of them are not complex, they just require some time to understand some things, it just that people now are more used to shoot to everything that moves and just pressing X/A


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

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It does seem to present itself that way, I really need to play them sometime.


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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I've looked at reviews of pretty much most of the Ultima series, video reviews. The guy explains  the series pretty well. He even started his review of all the games with the first one that ever came out. And that game is what you call a Old RPG.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

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Well I'm a retro gamer, so games like that are right up my alley.  You wouldn't by any chance be talking about Spoony, would you?


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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Yes I am in fact.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

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That's actually how I really found out about the Ultima series, I watched all of the videos in his "Ultima Retrospective", the only reason I don't play the one Ultima game I have is because it requires me to create a virtual desktop which is a pain in the but to turn on and off.


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## Hells Malice (Aug 27, 2011)

If someone wants an example of a complex jap game, play Armored Core.
Son of a bitch that's a hard game to get into. Not technically an RPG though.

I wouldn't say a game is complex based on stat/skill management and all that though. I did plenty of that in Ragnarok online, so it doesn't really phase me anymore.

I do find, as a whole, jRPGs are more complex then western RPGs. Only because most western RPGs focus more of combat-oriented gameplay.
Ultima is the only western game I could name that would be complex, and even then I didn't find it that bad after you get going.


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## Rayder (Aug 27, 2011)

Heh, I rem playing the Ultima games on C64.....it sucked that if you died in that game, it would save that fact to the disk immediately.  My friend and I got REAL good at pulling the disk before it saved that BS.  

There's a lot of DS RPG's (ARPG/SRPG/JRPG, etc...call them what you will) I tried to get into, but then all those stats just seemed too daunting to want to concern myself with.   I mean, take Golden Sun DS for example, you get/buy new armor or weapons and it's easy to see if it will benefit you or not. You see up or down arrows as you scroll through the characters, but many DS RPG's aren't that transparent.  You don't get that "instant knowledge" as to whether such-and-such armor/weapon is a plus or minus to your stats without having to scour through your stat screens to determine that.  I don't have the time (or the patience) to study all the character stats just to find out if some obscure piece of equipment is better or worse on some video game.  Maybe back in my teens I would I would go through all that hassle, but at 43, I'm too busy and too old for that crap now.  I've got other things on my mind besides spending hours in menu screens on some (quite frankly, pointless) game.

I guess that's the difference between a "hardcore" gamer and a "game-when-I-can-because-I've-got-grown-up-shit-to-do" veteran-gamer, eh? I've been forced to degenerate into a "casual gamer" out of responibility for my own ass.

Some RPG's are complex because "hardcore" gamers generally LOVE that level of complexity.  The problem is, once you grow beyond the "hardcore gamer" mentality and become a "veteran gamer" (grow up) you don't have the time for (nor the inclination to bother with) that level of complexity anymore and need simpler games to occupy your spare time without requiring as much thought as you used to devote to them when you were younger and had less responsibilities.  As an adult with real-life concerns, you will have more important things to deal with than filling your head up with useless video game information.  Believe me, unless you were born with a silver-spoon up your ass, you too will have more important things to think about than video games when you grow up. Like where to live, what to eat and how to keep paying the bills.  Mommy and Daddy won't be there for you forever.  Eventually, you will have to figure that stuff out for yourself and video games will suddenly become MUCH less important to you.  Character stats in some silly game will become meaningless drivel in the face of real-life.  Believe me, it WILL happen to YOU.


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## Gahars (Aug 27, 2011)

While I'm sure there are a good amount of exceptions, I imagine they're complex because that's their niche, and the audience for them expects a good deal of complexity.

Kind of like the Armored Core games; stupidly complex, but fans wouldn't have it any other way.


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## The Composer (Aug 27, 2011)

Rayder said:
			
		

> Heh, I rem playing the Ultima games on C64.....it sucked that if you died in that game, it would save that fact to the disk immediately.  My friend and I got REAL good at pulling the disk before it saved that BS.
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> There's a lot of DS RPG's (ARPG/SRPG/JRPG, etc...call them what you will) I tried to get into, but then all those stats just seemed too daunting to want to concern myself with.   I mean, take Golden Sun DS for example, you get/buy new armor or weapons and it's easy to see if it will benefit you or not. You see up or down arrows as you scroll through the characters, but many DS RPG's aren't that transparent.  You don't get that "instant knowledge" as to whether such-and-such armor/weapon is a plus or minus to your stats without having to scour through your stat screens to determine that.  I don't have the time (or the patience) to study all the character stats just to find out if some obscure piece of equipment is better or worse on some video game.  Maybe back in my teens I would I would go through all that hassle, but at 43, I'm too busy and too old for that crap now.  I've got other things on my mind besides spending hours in menu screens on some (quite frankly, pointless) game.
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I get what you are saying, and you are probably right about it. 

But if we look at your post, is a complete rant about your busy life. 

I mean, how can you guys be so lazy enough not to compare between numbers. Looking and thinking on the stats screen won't take you more than 3 minutes of your life.


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## clegion (Aug 27, 2011)

Gahars said:
			
		

> While I'm sure there are a good amount of exceptions, I imagine they're complex because that's their niche, and the audience for them expects a good deal of complexity.
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> Kind of like the Armored Core games; stupidly complex, but fans wouldn't have it any other way.


AC is complex? didn't think of it that way. Then again I don't exactly think that JRPG are in anyway complex or anything


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## Hells Malice (Aug 27, 2011)

clegion said:
			
		

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You can play AC without getting too deep into it, but once you start actually paying attention to every detail of your AC, it's insanely complex. Most people just focus on firepower and mobility. Though if you were to ever verse a human with some comprehension of the game...your caveman quality AC would get trashed in seconds, lol.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

The Composer said:
			
		

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Actually he never once said anything about his busy life except for the fact that it's busy, the rest of the post was pretty general.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 27, 2011)

I still prefer the first NES Dragon Warrior over 95% of the JRPGs from the past 20 years...

1. Grind
2. Buy new equipment
3. Grind
4. Learn a new spell
5. Grind
6. Fight a Green Dragon
7. Grind....you get the point

Stories are neat and all, but when it takes 70 hours to get through the story I find myself needing a break and temporarily switching to another game.  When I come back I like remembering exactly whats going on and how everything works.  With too much going on it's easy to get bored during the return play, having to relearn the game and remember where you are in the story.


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## Okami Wolfen (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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Not II either.

IV, sure. V the crystals get destroyed. And then there's that whole parallel world thing.

But WRPG's are much more complex. Try playing Knights of the Old Republic or Morrowind.


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## Ace Overclocked (Aug 27, 2011)

celeron53 said:
			
		

> im trying real hard to not sound like a troll, but wasnt FF4 about getting the crystals to save Rosa from *Golbez*. and in turn allowed them to go to the "place" of the final battle??


well you realise that the crystals weren't needed for world's safety in ff4 the after years


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

Okami Wolfen said:
			
		

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How is Morrowind complex?  That's a rather simple game, so is Oblivion, they're just extensive.  Of course, it's all opinion, but personally, I wouldn't put it that way.


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## emigre (Aug 27, 2011)

JRPs are complex in a poor attempt to prevent the player discovering how mediocre and shallow the gameplay is, as JRPs are terribly rote and repetitive (Grind, Boss, travel to town, buy new shit ad infitium)


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

emigre said:
			
		

> JRPs are complex in a poor attempt to prevent the player discovering how mediocre and shallow the gameplay is, as JRPs are terribly rote and repetitive (Grind, Boss, travel to town, buy new shit ad infitium)


Like what games JRPGs do you consider complex


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## Hells Malice (Aug 27, 2011)

emigre said:
			
		

> JRPs are complex in a poor attempt to prevent the player discovering how mediocre and shallow the gameplay is, as JRPs are terribly rote and repetitive (Grind, Boss, travel to town, buy new shit ad infitium)



I can never tell if you're brogamer trolling or being serious, because you're either an idiot or never being serious.

Either way is annoying.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

Hells Malice said:
			
		

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I'm trying to figure that out too because that does seem to be the case


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## emigre (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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I can't say I've ever found a JRPG to be complex. I'm a relatively intelligent person so I've comfortably grasped numerous battle systems. My earlier post was a half joke half serious.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

Honestly I don't know if they even make complex RPGs anymore.  There are a few, like Deus Ex and Etrian Odyssey (Well, maybe not Deus Ex, but I definitely wouldn't call that simple). Most RPGs with complex UI are older ones, I have a hard time ones that are complex nowadays unless they are SRPG, and even then they're hard to come by.


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## Hells Malice (Aug 27, 2011)

Complexity isn't always a good thing. Generally games try to incorporate complex things as simple as possible. It's not actually very enjoyable to be confused and annoyed by something, it's a lot easier to be able to understand and grasp a games concepts.

That's why AC works pretty well. It's complex as fuck, but at the same time it's simplified enough that you don't NEED to spend hours figuring out the small stuff, you can just focus on some of the more obvious details and still have fun.

Plus games can be deep, interesting and fun as hell without ever being considered "complex".

Hell, look at Atlus games. Most really aren't complex. Catherine and SMT: Devil Survivor come to mind. I wouldn't call either of them really "complex" but they're both tough as hell, and very fun.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

Hells Malice said:
			
		

> Complexity isn't always a good thing. Generally games try to incorporate complex things as simple as possible. It's not actually very enjoyable to be confused and annoyed by something, it's a lot easier to be able to understand and grasp a games concepts.
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Yeah, it really depends on how well it is employed and the level of complexity, as overly complex games tend to be annoying, frustrating, and overall boring.


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## emigre (Aug 27, 2011)

I prefer games that have deep and/or evolving game mechanics. In Eternal Sonata, the battle system would evolve over the period of the game or in Valkyrie Chronicles II where to upgrade your platoon's solider class, you have to attain certain credits.


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## Missing Number (Aug 27, 2011)

i dunno.... there are some WRPGs that fit the billl too

i.e. Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic, World of Warcraft, Ultima

and for most of those games, its not just the gameplay, but the story as well


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## Hells Malice (Aug 27, 2011)

Missing Number said:
			
		

> i dunno.... there are some WRPGs that fit the billl too
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I like evolving game mechanics, but sometimes they do more harm then good. Eternal Sonata's combat system was fantastic until you fully unlock it, then it's so simplistic and repetitive it drove me nuts.

Sands of Destruction did the same thing. It was pretty fun and somewhat difficult, until you you got far enough and then it just evolved into something supremely simplistic and boring.


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

KOTOR isn't that complex Hells Malice, it's fun, and rather easy once you get the hang of it. I got pretty good at dodging in that game (Even though you really couldn't it's not that hard to do.) I've played both, loved them. Especially with all the mods that are still (I think, I haven't checked the mods site) being made for it.


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

> KOTOR isn't that complex Hells Malice, it's fun, and rather easy once you get the hang of it. I got pretty good at dodging in that game (Even though you really couldn't it's not that hard to do.) I've played both, loved them. Especially with all the mods that are still (I think, I haven't checked the mods site) being made for it.


There are mods for it?  I love games with a lot of modding support


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## Nujui (Aug 27, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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http://knightsoftheoldrepublic.filefront.com/


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## clegion (Aug 27, 2011)

Hells Malice said:
			
		

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This of course assume that i make a caveman quality AC, I still don't think its complex, it is something expected from a mecha design game where you then drag this mecha into the battle


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## machomuu (Aug 27, 2011)

KirbyBoy said:
			
		

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Thanks


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## 727 (Sep 8, 2011)

I don't think JRPGs are really all that complex to begin with. Depth and complexion are too vastly different things.  Generally you're just attacking and healing; now a tactics game, that could be seen as a bit more complex. Especially if you get into the RTS realm; perhaps you just haven't gotten used to the RPG feel or the world of today is too used to mindless FPS games. I'm surprised this topic has gotten 4 pages because it just doesn't make sense to me; sure there are a few complex games but for the most part JRPGs are rather simple and repetitive with some depth thrown in to blind us.


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## SinHarvest24 (Sep 8, 2011)

That's exactly why i like JRPG!


The more complex a game is, the greater the possibilities are within the game.


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