# Piracy



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't think there is a Debates section on GBAtemp, so this can go here for now.


What are your thoughts on piracy? I think we can all agree that it is here to stay. I personally don't think it is going to go because a few organisations are trying to stop it.

So, do you agree with it? Do you not? Do you only use pirated material because you simply cannot afford retail versions.

Let's hear your thoughts GBAtemp.


----------



## BORTZ (Dec 3, 2012)

OMG NOT THIS AGAIN

Gbatemp does not need a debate section because no matter what the topic, it turns into a debate.


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

BortzANATOR said:


> OMG NOT THIS AGAIN


 
Didn't know there was a duplicate thread.


----------



## chavosaur (Dec 3, 2012)

This discussion has been discussed in this discussion thread multiple times.


----------



## Gahars (Dec 3, 2012)

BortzANATOR said:


> Gbatemp does not need a debate section because no matter what the topic, it turns into a debate.


 
Counterpoint: Shut up, no you.


----------



## Icealote (Dec 3, 2012)

Winner of this debate shall receive the title : Master Debater. (yes lame, please dont hit me )


----------



## Sicklyboy (Dec 3, 2012)

I'll throw this out there.  I'm the first of four people to vote on this to say "No."

I do not agree with piracy.
I do not condone piracy.
If you ask me to help you pirate stuff, I will give you very vague instructions or Google unless you're very close to me.
I do not think it is right.

Yet I also do not feel it harms the industries nearly as much as they claim it does.  It's not "lost revenue", it's "lost sale potential", and not even in all cases (I've bought games (duplicates, at that)/entire franchises from developers MULTIPLE times after pirating their games; Borderlands, for one (2 copies), then The entire Steam Bethesda pack just from having pirated Fallout 3 and Morrowind (which I hadn't even played much))

Again.  I don't agree with it, I don't think it's right, but at the same time, it's something I do, primarily because I couldn't dream to afford even half of the stuff I download.


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, if someone wants to delete this because there is a duplicate or move it, I'm fine with that.


----------



## Tom (Dec 3, 2012)

I really do not think it affects anyone much , I honestly would not have too many games without pirating, When I had my gamecube, ps2 I only had 6 games each if that, However If I really like a game ( ALOT) I will buy it even if it already got pirated, I did that with COD BO2, Skyrim, Minecraft ect just to support the devs , I do regret buying skyrim though, Good game but bethesda screwed ps3 users


----------



## Sterling (Dec 3, 2012)

Not to put a damper on your GBAtemp spirit, but this topic likes to come up every [other] month. I mean it isn't bad to discuss this but quite literally every argument for or against piracy gets posted and then the topic dies until some black magic resurrects it. Most of the time it's posted by someone who is much more active too. I think it's time to wait at least until 2013 before we get another one of these.


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

Sterling said:


> Not to put a damper on your GBAtemp spirit, but this topic likes to come up every [other] month. I mean it isn't bad to discuss this but quite literally every argument for or against piracy gets posted and then the topic dies until some black magic resurrects it. Most of the time it's posted by someone who is much more active too. I think it's time to wait at least until 2013 before we get another one of these.


 
Thanks for the info.
Didn't really know.


----------



## Latiken (Dec 3, 2012)

Xenirina said:


> Thanks for the info.
> Didn't really know.


LAWL. Everyone's going off on you . What do YOU think of Piracy?


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

XPro said:


> LAWL. Everyone's going off on you . What do YOU think of Piracy?


 
Me?
I agree with it. I don't think that piracy kills the music, movie or whatever industry we're pirating from. It may harm it, but these are multi-million dollar business'. It won't make much of a difference/

That being said, there is a part of me that doesn't condone it. For what reason, I'm not quite sure. But it's there for sure.


----------



## pyromaniac123 (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't agree with piracy. Those somali pirates are nasty people.


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

pyromaniac123 said:


> I don't agree with piracy. Those somali pirates are nasty people.


 
Let's rephrase.
Computer piracy.


----------



## Sly 3 4 me (Dec 3, 2012)

Product-wise, if I were a developer I would hate it if someone stole my material. As mentioned, the companies that sell their games for $60 a pop, or $40 or whatever are not losing my money. That's largely due to the fact that I do not have much money to give them. At a peak level I do not think I would buy their games, there are exceptions in my judgement as there are some games that are truly worth their recognition, and in that respect, my money. I buy all the games that I enjoy from indie developers and companies where it matters with the cumulative amount for their sales.


----------



## Hells Malice (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't agree with piracy, and I think it hurts more niche and under appreciated games a hell of a lot more than it'll ever even scratch juggernaut franchises.
With that said, I pirate damn near every new game I think i'd be interested in. If I love it, i'll buy it. If i like it, i'll grab it on sale for what I think it's worth. I have money to spend, but not so much that I can just buy every game that may interest me, just to be disappointed. I actually SUPPORT piracy if it's to combat overinflated PC game prices, like Skyrim or Dishonored...both of which sold for full *console* retail price. That's taboo as fuck, or it used to be. Back in the day, both of those games would have taken a massive hit if they tried to sell it to gamers at that price. These days people like to turn their brains off and willingly throw all their money at big companies trying to screw the little guy.

tl;dr: I support piracy if you use it (properly) as a 'demo' system. Support what you like, or it'll disappear.



tom10122 said:


> I really do not think it affects anyone much , I honestly would not have too many games without pirating, When I had my gamecube, ps2 I only had 6 games each if that, However If I really like a game ( ALOT) I will buy it even if it already got pirated, I did that with COD BO2, Skyrim, Minecraft ect just to support the devs , I do regret buying skyrim though, Good game but bethesda screwed ps3 users


 
If you're going to support select games...don't feed the freakin' giants like ass of duty. Craptivision doesn't need any more money, they've got 95% of the worlds 12 year olds buying it already.


----------



## Sicklyboy (Dec 3, 2012)

Yeah, that's another thing I ought to mention.

Out of all the games I pirate, I won't pirate indie games.  THAT just isn't right at all, in my book.  Considering they're usually dirt cheap anyway.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same (yet) of indie musicians, I pirate their stuff sometimes :/


----------



## Vulpes Abnocto (Dec 3, 2012)

Let me phrase it this way:

There have been times in the past when I couldn't afford many games, and at that point I was rather prone to making mistakes about what was worth my money, and what was not.
I discovered the possibility of piracy, and learned just how many good and under-the-radar games there are.
When I found those games and their developers I didn't forget their names.
The truly excellent titles I went out and bought legitimate copies of as soon as I could afford to. And I don't regret those purchases.
And the more I learned about the game industry, the more I got away from piracy
I still screw up occasionally and pay for games that are not worthy of my money or time because I'm not trying-before-buying.
But if it had not been for the option of piracy, I would have given up on games entirely many years ago.
And _none_ of these developers would have gotten my attention, time, or money.
Studies have shown that people who have pirated good music are more likely to go back and pay for that music later.
And in my opinion the same is true of games.
So I surmise that piracy isn't nearly as bad for game development, as the plethora of companies that just make fucking shitty games, betting that the history of their franchise will get them the profit margins they desire.
Piracy forces game developers to work harder in creating a superb product.
And that benefits every one of us, whether we take part in piracy or not.

You're free to disagree (and I'm sure there are a dozen or so people chomping at the bit to tell me how wrong I am with this line of thought) but the fact of the matter remains that I'm far more likely to go back and pay for a DRM-free game rather than some severely crippled one that requires online connections or physical discs to prove that you've paid your dues.

Yes, we've had this discussion before, but I don't intend to cut it short until it becomes ugly.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 3, 2012)

I already made a thread about this.  But it was kind of old, so no big deal. You can find it in the general discussion, if you want to hear the views of myself and others who've commented there.


----------



## Catastrophic (Dec 3, 2012)

I do pirate quite much actually. Not just because it gives me access to a much wider variety of games, but because I can't resist the temptation


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 3, 2012)

Catastrophic said:


> I do pirate quite much actually. Not just because it gives me access to a much wider variety of games, but because I can't resist the temptation


How catastrophic.

But seriously, hey now, at least you're honest about why.


----------



## Catastrophic (Dec 3, 2012)

xwatchmanx said:


> *How catastrophic.*
> 
> But seriously, hey now, at least you're honest about why.


why does everyone keep making that joke?


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 3, 2012)

Catastrophic said:


> why does everyone keep making that joke?


I don't know. That sounds so cata...

Never mind.


----------



## Vulpes Abnocto (Dec 3, 2012)

I'd like to see this conversation be less about jokes and more about reasoning, if at all possible.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 3, 2012)

Icealote said:


> Winner of this debate shall receive the title : Master Debater. (yes lame, please dont hit me )


 
Sounds dirty.... i like it.

Anyways, I don't agree with it at all. No reason to agree with it.

The way I see it, it's kind of the same as buying a used game. When you buy a used game, none of your money goes to developers or anything, it all goes to the store (ala GameStop, EB Games.. etc). When you pirate a game (yes I'm using game as an example), none of your money goes to anybody. Iono, it's just how I think.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 3, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Sounds dirty.... i like it.
> 
> Anyways, I don't agree with it at all. No reason to agree with it.
> 
> The way I see it, it's kind of the same as buying a used game. When you buy a used game, none of your money goes to developers or anything, it all goes to the store (ala GameStop, EB Games.. etc). When you pirate a game (yes I'm using game as an example), none of your money goes to anybody. Iono, it's just how I think.


So are you saying that you think buying used games is (almost) as bad as piracy? Or did I miss something?


----------



## Armadillo (Dec 3, 2012)

I simply don't care. Everyone is screwing each other one way or another, piracy is just an extension of that.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 3, 2012)

xwatchmanx said:


> So are you saying that you think buying used games is (almost) as bad as piracy? Or did I miss something?


 
No, I buy used games, but at least you paid for them legally. I'm just saying, either way, money isn't going to developers for work they've done, when it should be.


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, looking from the poll, most people agree with piracy.
So why is that? I really wonder why so many people here agree with it, but the rest of the world hate it...


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 3, 2012)

Xenirina said:


> Well, looking from the poll, most people agree with piracy.
> So why is that? I really wonder why so many people here agree with it, but the rest of the world hate it...


You have to remember, though GBAtemp has strict rules against hosting ROMs and wares and even links to sites that do, it has a large community for hacking, flash carts, etc. Plus, it used to be a site specifically for hosting ROMs. So it makes sense to me that most people on this site would be ok with it.


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

xwatchmanx said:


> You have to remember, though GBAtemp has strict rules against hosting ROMs and wares and even links to sites that do, it has a large community for hacking, flash carts, etc. *Plus, it used to be a site specifically for hosting ROMs*. So it makes sense to me that most people on this site would be ok with it.


 
Yeah, I suppose so.
And I didn't know that. When did it change its rules?


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 3, 2012)

Xenirina said:


> Yeah, I suppose so.
> And I didn't know that. When did it change its rules?


Idk, I wasn't around at the time. This is just something I heard on another thread. Don't quote me on it. It was a LONG time ago, back in the GBA days.


----------



## BORTZ (Dec 3, 2012)

> About half a year into the forums life, the staff had to come to the decision that ROMs would no longer be available to download from GBAtemp, and all warez and other illegal material would be ruled out on the forum. The reason this was done is because a lot of members and the staff themselves had really come to appreciate the forums and each other, and didn't want to risk losing the community they had built up. So to avoid legal issues and to make sure GBAtemp was never shut down, all ROMs, ROM links, warez and more were now strictly forbidden on the 'new GBAtemp'.


----------



## Latiken (Dec 3, 2012)

xwatchmanx said:


> Idk, I wasn't around at the time. This is just something I heard on another thread. Don't quote me on it. It was a LONG time ago, back in the GBA days.


Yeah, I heard this too. It's kinda hard to believe especially since everyone is strict with Roms (including me ). At least now it's legal. I would hate for GBATemp to get taken down.
Then, I wouldn't have anything to do...


----------



## emigre (Dec 3, 2012)

GBAtemp's name is in reference to piracy. 

YEAH, I CAN HEAR THOSE MINDS BEING BLOWN!


----------



## Engert (Dec 3, 2012)

As much as the developers hate it, without hacking (which includes piracy) there is no improvement.
Hacking should and will continue.
Hackers improve the software by finding exploits.
That's why GPL related software are better than commercial software because there are many minds working together not a closed loop of people.


----------



## Deleted_171835 (Dec 3, 2012)

During the DS-era, there were a shitload of great games coming out each month but I couldn't possibly afford to buy all of them. Piracy has allowed to me play games such as Ghost Trick, Hotel Dusk, Ace Attorney, I could go on.

The way I see it is that without piracy, I wouldn't have been able to experience so many great games.


----------



## DJ91990 (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree with piracy and here is why:
Piracy is not as damaging as the IP holders make it out to be, in fact, piracy actually helps drive up sells!
Imagine there is a video game that is not released in your country, in order to play the game you must pirate it, because let's face it, would you go out of your way to pay close to $100.00 for a video game to be imported? If you do, then more power to you, as for the rest of us, we resort to piracy.
Not all video games have demos, and with the lack of video game rental stores/services and if your friend doesn't have the game, piracy is the only way to try a game before you buy it. Many people (myself included) have pirated Minecraft before we have later bought it. (I pirated Minecraft mainly for two reasons; to see how well I like it, and to see how well it runs on my PC. As soon as I got a PC that was able to run Minecraft, I bought it.)

Piracy also helps corporations expand their potential sells. If a smart company sees that a specific media is being pirated in a country that does not domestically have access to the specific media, they will see the potential profits. You will then notice that the smart companies will then start to sell the media in that country and because so many people were exposed to it, thanks to piracy, more people buy the media than projected.

Combating piracy is like trying to stop the sun from setting each day. There will always be pirates. When stupid companies try to combat piracy, four times out of five, it inconveniences the end user (Always online DRM, limited installations, Multiplayer passes, SECUROM, etc.) and the end-user then resorts to piracy to be able to use the product that they have bought.

Piracy is not stealing. When something is pirated, a copy of the original is created. A physical stock is not stolen, that physical stock can still be sold, and the money invested in creating that stock can still be returned. Piracy also enables retro gamers to be able to play video games from old consoles without investing a large amount of money. (Some retro games, depending on rarity and condition can be sold upwards of $100.00 or so!) Piracy also allows the ability of fan-hacks and translations, something that allot of members on this forum enjoy. Let's take the recent Fire Emblem game that was recently completely translated into English. You would have had to have pirated the ROM or dumped the ROM from a phyisical copy that you have imported. But according to IP holders, creating a backup copy is just as bad as pirating. (Don't believe me? Take a look at the legal mumbo-jumbo in your instruction books. It will say how creating backups are not needed to protect your game and doing so invalidates your warranty. Also in some countries, creating backups is considered conspiring to commit piracy and is illegal, which I think is completely wrong and unjust.)

Piracy is like recreational drugs in a way, it is only wrong because people in power want to demonize it. People will always do what they want to do, regardless if it is lawful or not. Also piracy does more help than harm and helps drive sells by basically serving as free advertisement. We cannot treat video game and software piracy the same as motion picture and music piracy, because unlike movies, books, and music, video games can offer a different experience to each individual.


----------



## DJPlace (Dec 3, 2012)

i only use piracy on systems that can be hacked.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 3, 2012)

DJ91990 said:


> I agree with piracy and here is why:
> Piracy is not as damaging as the IP holders make it out to be, in fact, piracy actually helps drive up sells!
> Imagine there is a video game that is not released in your country, in order to play the game you must pirate it, because let's face it, would you go out of your way to pay close to $100.00 for a video game to be imported? If you do, then more power to you, as for the rest of us, we resort to piracy.
> Not all video games have demos, and with the lack of video game rental stores/services and if your friend doesn't have the game, piracy is the only way to try a game before you buy it. Many people (myself included) have pirated Minecraft before we have later bought it. (I pirated Minecraft mainly for two reasons; to see how well I like it, and to see how well it runs on my PC. As soon as I got a PC that was able to run Minecraft, I bought it.)
> ...


 
That's where people have different opinions though. I mean, if someone is making a game or movie, intending to be paid for it as it's their creation, and you get access to it without paying, it's stealing. But hey, this is one of those subjects where definitions of words change and it'll always be a gray area.


----------



## wrettcaughn (Dec 3, 2012)

I used to pirate all of my movies/music/games.  I'd also rent movies/games from a video store, copy them, return them, and justify it by telling myself "hey, at least you paid a rental fee...".

Then a couple years ago I quit, cold turkey.  Haven't pirated a single thing since.  Not even an mp3.

I guess it came down to the realization that I'd probably be pretty pissed if I invested a lot of time/money/ideas in something only to have people trivialize and disrespect it by essentially saying it isn't worth any sort of investment on their part to watch/listen to/play it.  But the people who _want things_ will always argue that they're "technically not stealing, we're DUPLICATING" or "people are always going to pirate so there's no point in fighting it".  No, I don't believe media piracy is "stealing".  It's just wiping your ass with someone else's hard work.

Trying to argue that piracy actually helps companies is fucking moot.  It is illegal.  There's no arguing the legality of something that is illegal in every way, shape, and form.  Disagreeing with a law does not make it any less law...



DJ91990 said:


> We cannot treat video game and software piracy the same as motion picture and music piracy, because unlike movies, books, and music, video games can offer a different experience to each individual.


 
And this ^ is just retarded.  Different people can certainly take different things away from the same media, regardless of the medium.  To say that video games offer a more varied experience than movies, books, or music is not only wrong.  It's naive.


----------



## Ikki (Dec 3, 2012)

I used to be all for it, then all against it, now I just don't care. I don't do it though. Mostly because if I think a game is worth buying I'll buy it, if I'm not sure about it and I download it 90% of the time it turns out to be bland or bad in other ways and I just end up not playing it so I don't even bother anymore.

My reasoning used to be that it hurt the industry but with games getting worse and worse as they try to approach the mainstream audience I can't even blame piracy with a straight face anymore. Now if someone would ask me why I don't pirate games I'd say "because it doesn't feel right", which may seem like a terrible answer but it's true. If someone would ask me why I buy games, I'd just say "because I think they're worth it".

The industry is better and worse than ever, but you can't blame piracy for either.



ShadowSoldier said:


> No, I buy used games, but at least you paid for them legally. I'm just saying, either way, money isn't going to developers for work they've done, when it should be.


 
I miss your Layton avatar.


----------



## Xenirina (Dec 3, 2012)

DJ91990 said:


> I agree with piracy and here is why:
> Piracy is not as damaging as the IP holders make it out to be, in fact, piracy actually helps drive up sells!
> Imagine there is a video game that is not released in your country, in order to play the game you must pirate it, because let's face it, would you go out of your way to pay close to $100.00 for a video game to be imported? If you do, then more power to you, as for the rest of us, we resort to piracy.
> Not all video games have demos, and with the lack of video game rental stores/services and if your friend doesn't have the game, piracy is the only way to try a game before you buy it. Many people (myself included) have pirated Minecraft before we have later bought it. (I pirated Minecraft mainly for two reasons; to see how well I like it, and to see how well it runs on my PC. As soon as I got a PC that was able to run Minecraft, I bought it.)
> ...


 
Wow.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 4, 2012)

DJPlace said:


> i only use piracy on systems that can be hacked.


"I only pirate on systems when piracy is possible." XD


----------



## Jehuty25 (Dec 4, 2012)

I pirate games, movies and software. I don't care if people call me a thief.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

Jehuty25 said:


> I pirate games, movies and software. I don't care if people call me a thief.


 
I think you're missing the point of the thread dude..


----------



## Latiken (Dec 4, 2012)

Piracy can never actually be justified. Unless Romney was president...
Anyways... I don't really know how to say this, but if you pirate something then buy the copy, I think it's considered okay. However, if you pirate something and don't buy the copy later, it's wrong. Lol, I'm such a hypocrite. Maybe once I get a job, I'll get the copies.

@ShadowSoldier
Amen.


----------



## DiscostewSM (Dec 4, 2012)

The only time I feel pirating has any merit is when the product has been phased out and is not selling anymore. Now, games that *are* selling, but are not being localized in your region, I can understand that. What I don't understand is people feel they deserve to pirate, like those that say "I don't have the money" or "There's no demo to try it out". Very few people actually buy a game/movie/etc after pirating it, because....why pay for something you already have for free? We even got people here who are convinced that the only way they'll ever get such-and-such system is if it is hacked. I highly doubt they're in it just for the non-emulator homebrew.


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Dec 4, 2012)

I wish people would just pirate, realize it's morally wrong, but be as morally ignorant as I am.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I wish people would just pirate, realize it's morally wrong, but be as morally ignorant as I am.


Agreed. I pirate, I know it's "wrong" to do so as it's practically leeching off the hard work of the artists involved in the making of whatever media I pirate, but _my appetite for media is far larger than my capacity to pay for it_ - it's as simple as that. If I earned enough to satitate this appetite, I probably wouldn't pirate, but I don't, so yeah.


----------



## wrettcaughn (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Agreed. I pirate, I know it's "wrong" to do so as it's practically leeching off the hard work of the artists involved in the making of whatever media I pirate, but _my appetite for media is far larger than my capacity to pay for it_ - it's as simple as that. If I earned enough to satitate this appetite, I probably wouldn't pirate, but I don't, so yeah.



You should get out more.  I don't know how pirates even find the time to play all the games or wat ch all the shows/movies they "duplicate".  I know when I was downloading shit, only like 1/4 of it even got watched or played...


----------



## the_randomizer (Dec 4, 2012)

What's worse, spending exorbitant prices on used and collectors games alike, or downloading said game when you don't have the means of purchasing said game?


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Dec 4, 2012)

the_randomizer said:


> What's worse, spending exorbitant prices on used and collectors games alike, or downloading said game when you don't have the means of purchasing said game?


 
Having priorities and realizing gaming is a luxury?

I can't really see people justifying their piracy based on prices. This isn't bread, water, or electricity. It's a complete luxury. You don't need video games to survive, it's actually one of the most useless past times to have.

Also, accounting for inflation, aren't game prices back then more than they are now?


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

Old8oy said:


> You should get out more. I don't know how pirates even find the time to play all the games or wat ch all the shows/movies they "duplicate". I know when I was downloading shit, only like 1/4 of it even got watched or played...


I rarely download stuff that I have no intention of using "right now" and I don't store my downloads. I really don't understand people who download a film just because it's "new" and leave it on the drive to gather dust - I download my films, watch'em and remove'em, so no, I don't have that problem.


----------



## the_randomizer (Dec 4, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Having priorities and realizing gaming is a luxury?
> 
> I can't really see people justifying their piracy based on prices. This isn't bread, water, or electricity. It's a complete luxury. You don't need video games to survive, it's actually one of the most useless past times to have.
> 
> Also, accounting for inflation, aren't game prices back then more than they are now?


 
What about those that never get localized?


----------



## Guild McCommunist (Dec 4, 2012)

the_randomizer said:


> What about those that never get localized?


 
Then import them or don't buy them.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, I think it goes without saying that piracy is _naughty._

Someone dished out cash, resources, manpower and dedicated time to produce media _with the intention of selling it_ that you, when you pirate, get for free even though _you're not entitled to a copy_. That's a very simple concept and if someone doesn't get it then said person was probably never involved in the production of... anything. Don't even try to find any explaination for your actions as there really is none - whenever you do, you're being delusional.

In any case, it's only _"stealing"_ if you'd buy given media if you couldn't pirate it, and in most cases that is not true - I know that I wouldn't buy 99% of the media I pirate, and I know it for certain. It is _wrong_ though as you're seizing the results of someone's hard work without being entitled to them in any way. It's not a morally-grey area - it's wrong, plain and simple. There is no gradation here whatsoever, and it doesn't matter if the media is coming from a bigger or smaller studio - the constituents are the same - hard work -> result -> will to sell result -> as*hole downloading result for free, the issue here is whether you're bothered by petty offenses or not.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Having priorities and realizing gaming is a luxury?
> 
> I can't really see people justifying their piracy based on prices. This isn't bread, water, or electricity. It's a complete luxury. You don't need video games to survive, it's actually one of the most useless past times to have.
> 
> Also, accounting for inflation, aren't game prices back then more than they are now?


 
In all honesty, a person with a minimum wage job could easily afford a game a month. So prices are a moot argument to use.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> In all honesty, a person with a minimum wage job could easily afford a game a month. So prices are a moot argument to use.


The video game industry is a particularly difficult area due to the fact that _the target audience is likely to be underage and studying_, and thus in most cases not working, or at least not professionally, so they don't reach "minimum wage" yearly. It's funny when you think about it - the gaming industry hangs on very thin strings that parents could cut any moment, really. Adult gamers are in the minority, people often forget about that.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> The video game industry is a particularly difficult area due to the fact that _the target audience is likely to be underage and studying_, and thus in most cases not working, or at least not professionally, so they don't reach "minimum wage" yearly. It's funny when you think about it - the gaming industry hangs on very thin strings that parents could cut any moment, really. Adult gamers are in the minority, people often forget about that.


 
Except a lot of games are intended for 17 and up, and chances are, you have a job. If your parents are paying for your games and they cut you off, that still doesn't give you a right to steal a game.

I mean in Canada, minimum wage is 10 bucks, so anybody could easily afford a game within a day's work.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> In any case, it's only _stealing_ if you'd buy given media if you couldn't pirate it, and in most cases that is not true - I know that I wouldn't buy 99% of the media I pirate, and I know it for certain. It is _wrong_ though as you're seizing the results of someone's hard work without being entitled to them in any way. It's not a morally-grey area - it's wrong, plain and simple. There is no gradation here whatsoever, and it doesn't matter if the media is coming from a bigger or smaller studio - the constituents are the same - hard work -> result -> will to sell result -> as*hole downloading result for free, the issue here is whether you're bothered by petty offenses or not.


I've been an ex-pirate for the past few months... and you know what's one of the first things I did once I made that decision and got a job? Go out and start buying most of the DS games I pirated on my flash cart. Just saying. There definitely ARE people who would buy most of the things they pirated, if piracy wasn't an option, and if they could afford it.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Except a lot of games are intended for 17 and up, and chances are, you have a job. If your parents are paying for your games and they cut you off, that still doesn't give you a right to steal a game.
> 
> I mean in Canada, minimum wage is 10 bucks, so anybody could easily afford a game within a day's work.


Piracy is not stealing. Stealing entails a loss on the victim's part, be it financial or in property - you take something that is in the possession of the victim and the victim no longer possesses it. With piracy, this does not occur as rather than seize said property, you duplicate it without permission to do so.

I'll be honest with you - I study at uni, I practically get one day off, and when I can, I work. Even if I do make those $10, it would take me 5 weeks to make enough money to buy a video game, and that doesn't cover the costs of hardware - just the software. For all intents and purposes, _gaming is too posh and luxurious for me at this point in my life_, but I am unwilling to part with it. 



xwatchmanx said:


> There definitely ARE people who would buy most of the things they pirated, if piracy wasn't an option, and if they could afford it.


In other words, you pirated because you had no means of obtaining media at that time, but once you started making enough income, you stopped pirating. That was the whole point of what I was saying. Once I reach the level of income that will allow me to stop pirating, I am likely to stop as well as the need to do so will vanish.


----------



## DiscostewSM (Dec 4, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> Having priorities and realizing gaming is a luxury?
> 
> I can't really see people justifying their piracy based on prices. This isn't bread, water, or electricity. It's a complete luxury. You don't need video games to survive, it's actually one of the most useless past times to have.
> 
> Also, accounting for inflation, aren't game prices back then more than they are now?


 

I remember paying $80 for my copy of Chrono Trigger on the SNES back in 1995, which is even more than games nowadays, dollar for dollar. Add in inflation, and that $80 would have hte buying power equal to $121.43 this year.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> In other words, you pirated because you had no means of obtaining media at that time, but once you started making enough income, you stopped pirating. That was the whole point of what I was saying. Once I reach the level of income that will allow me to stop pirating, I am likely to stop as well as the need to do so will vanish.


Not really. I didn't get a job until after I made the decision to stop pirating, and even in the past when I HAD money to afford games, I pirated.

Anyway, my last post was directed specifically at the bit where you said that people who pirates games generally wouldn't buy what they were pirating if they couldn't pirate them. And I was just pointing out that, at least in my case, that wasn't true, because I was pirating regardless of whether I could afford to buy DS games or not. The fact that I was employed not long after I decided to stop pirating was a coincidence (even though that probably did help a bit to stop me from "caving" on my decision).


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> *Piracy is not stealing. Stealing entails a loss on the victim's part, be it financial or in property* - you take something that is in the posession of the victim and the victim no longer posesses it. With piracy, this does not occur as rather than seize said property, you duplicate it without permission to do so.
> 
> I'll be honest with you - I study at uni, I practically get one day off, and when I can, I work. Even if I do make those $10, it would take me 5 weeks to make enough money to buy a video game, and that doesn't cover the costs of hardware - just the software. For all intents and purposes, _gaming is too posh and luxurious for me at this point in my life_, but I am unwilling to part with it.
> 
> ...


 
Right, and when you download their game for free, and play it, they lost money on something that was intended to be bought.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Right, and when you download their game for free, and play it, they lost money on something that was intended to be bought.


That's the thing - _they didn't lose money_. If the pirate _has no intention of buying the media and only pirates it because he or she has the opportunity to do so_, the same pirate _wouldn't buy the media if he or she didn't have the forementioned opportunity_ - said person didn't want to buy the media in the first place, for whatever reason. _Removing the capacity to pirate does not entail any form of financial profit_.



xwatchmanx said:


> Anyway, my last post was directed specifically at the bit where you said that people who pirates games generally wouldn't buy what they were pirating if they couldn't pirate them. And I was just pointing out that, at least in my case, that wasn't true, because I was pirating regardless of whether I could afford to buy DS games or not. The fact that I was employed not long after I decided to stop pirating was a coincidence (even though that probably did help a bit to stop me from "caving" on my decision).


Re-read - I said that _"It's only stealing if you'd buy the media otherwise"_ - most pirates don't have that intention... so in your case, you were, metaphorically-speaking, _"stealing"_, and now you seek retribution by purchasing the media you previously _"stole"_. I'm using inverted commas here since, as mentioned earlier, it's not theft per-se.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> That's the thing - _they didn't lose money_. If the pirate _has no intention of buying the media and only pirates it because he or she has the opportunity to do so_, the same pirate _wouldn't buy the media if he or she didn't have the forementioned opportunity_ - said person didn't want to buy the media in the first place, for whatever reason. _Removing the capacity to pirate does not entail any form of financial profit_.


 
Except (I'm using games as an example here), in order to start turning a profit, DS games need to sell I think it was around 100k to make a profit. Roughly 10-15 bucks goes towards devs/publishers for each new copy bought. But if 100k people downloaded the game instead, and no money went to the team who made the game on the intent of making money, then their game was stolen, and they lost a lot of money. They basically made that game that you are enjoying along with the other 100k people, for free, which is not what the point of their project was.


----------



## pyromaniac123 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Except (I'm using games as an example here), in order to start turning a profit, DS games need to sell I think it was around 100k to make a profit. Roughly 10-15 bucks goes towards devs/publishers for each new copy bought. But if 100k people downloaded the game instead, and no money went to the team who made the game on the intent of making money, then their game was stolen, and they lost a lot of money. They basically made that game that you are enjoying along with the other 100k people, for free, which is not what the point of their project was.


 
We have a piracy expert right here.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

pyromaniac123 said:


> We have a piracy expert right here.


 
We also have a smart ass right here.


----------



## pyromaniac123 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> We also have a smart ass right here.


 
What a witty and clever comeback.


----------



## DiscostewSM (Dec 4, 2012)

I agree it isn't stealing/theft/etc in the same manner as physical one-copy products, but unless both parties are benefiting, one of them is losing out on an opportunity.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> Except (I'm using games as an example here), in order to start turning a profit, DS games need to sell I think it was around 100k to make a profit. Roughly 10-15 bucks goes towards devs/publishers for each new copy bought. But if 100k people downloaded the game instead, and no money went to the team who made the game on the intent of making money, then their game was stolen, and they lost a lot of money. They basically made that game that you are enjoying along with the other 100k people, for free, which is not what the point of their project was.


This is not about economics, this is about _the legal definition of theft_. Piracy is not theft as it is_ an instance of duplicating the goods in question_, not of _taking possession of said goods by removing them from somebody else's possession_.

There are too many variables here to simplify it to the example you just gave - you have to imagine a mathematical situation here. I'll do my best to boil it down again - if a pirate _hasn't got any intention to buy_, removing _the opportunity to pirate_ does not strenghten the motivation to buy a game, _at least not by itself_. What strenghtens the motivation to buy said game is the desire to play it, which is directly connected with its quality.




DiscostewSM said:


> I agree it isn't stealing/theft/etc in the same manner as physical one-copy products, but unless both parties are benefiting, one of them is losing out on an opportunity.


What opportunity? If the pirate _didn't want to buy_, there was no opportunity to begin with - that's the whole point.

This only makes sense in the _"I'd love to play this game but I can't afford it, I'll have to pirate it" _scenario which is actually quite rare, and even in this scenario, the pirate is likely to but the game once he can afford it and provided that it meets his or her quality standards.

In this scenario, you can even _entice the pirate to buy the game later_ by presenting additional content - DLC and Online capabilities which usually works only with original copies of the game.


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> This is not about economics, *this is about the legal definition of theft.* Piracy is not theft as it is_ an instance of duplicating the goods in question_, not of _seizing the posession of said goods by removing them from somebody else's posession_.
> 
> There are too many variables here to simplify it to the example you just gave - you have to imagine a mathematical situation here. I'll do my best to boil it down again - if a pirate _hasn't got any intention to buy_, removing _the opportunity to pirate_ does not strenghten the motivation to buy a game, _at least not by itself_. What strenghtens the motivation to buy said game is the desire to play it, which is directly connected with its quality.
> 
> ...


 
And like I said in my first post in this thread, it's a gray area. People like me, believe that the definition fits, others like you don't. It's hard to define it, if not impossible.



pyromaniac123 said:


> What a witty and clever comeback.


 
What a Stupid Pointless Annoying Message... ah yes, known as spam. Something that doesn't add anything to the thread. Good job.


----------



## pyromaniac123 (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> This is not about economics, this is about _the legal definition of theft_. Piracy is not theft as it is_ an instance of duplicating the goods in question_, not of _seizing the posession of said goods by removing them from somebody else's posession_.
> 
> There are too many variables here to simplify it to the example you just gave - you have to imagine a mathematical situation here. I'll do my best to boil it down again - if a pirate _hasn't got any intention to buy_, removing _the opportunity to pirate_ does not strenghten the motivation to buy a game, _at least not by itself_. What strenghtens the motivation to buy said game is the desire to play it, which is directly connected with its quality.
> 
> ...


 
Unless said pirate only cares about the core game and not about extra features etc...


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

pyromaniac123 said:


> Unless said pirate only cares about the core game and not about extra features etc...


Of course that remains true, however a developer has the DLC/Online option. I believe that if the DLC is substantial, for example an actually meaningful additional campaign that adds a lot to the core experience, it's a strong incentive to buy. Not saying that games should studdenly start missing core elements and require DLC, but if used in a smart manner, it can be quite beneficial.


----------



## Hyro-Sama (Dec 4, 2012)

Just be honest with yourself.

You pirate cause you don't give a fuck.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

Hyro-Sama said:


> Just be honest with yourself.
> 
> You pirate cause you don't give a fuck.


Well, considering that on many systems, you have to go to great lenghts to pirate... Perhaps pirates pirate because they _do care_... about pirating.


----------



## pyromaniac123 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> And like I said in my first post in this thread, it's a gray area. People like me, believe that the definition fits, others like you don't. It's hard to define it, if not impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> What a Stupid Pointless Annoying Message... ah yes, known as spam. Something that doesn't add anything to the thread. Good job.


 
And your completely made up example did?


----------



## DiscostewSM (Dec 4, 2012)

I wonder how much time/money is spent towards anti-piracy measures by developers...


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

pyromaniac123 said:


> What a witty and clever comeback.


 
What a Stupid Pointless Annoying Message... ah yes, known as spam.


pyromaniac123 said:


> And your completely made up example did?


 
Jesus Christ I'm dumb, I just recognized your name. Anybody on this forum has a better chance of getting better comments out of a toilet than you. Fuck.


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 4, 2012)

Foxi4 said:


> Re-read - I said that _"It's only stealing if you'd buy the media otherwise"_ - most pirates don't have that intention... so in your case, you were, metaphorically-speaking, _"stealing"_, and now you seek retribution by purchasing the media you previously _"stole"_. I'm using inverted commas here since, as mentioned earlier, it's not theft per-se.


I'm not buying the games as 'retribution' though... as I mentioned in a previous post, I'm only buying the games I genuinely liked, and would like to own.


----------



## pyromaniac123 (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> What a Stupid Pointless Annoying Message... ah yes, known as spam.
> 
> 
> Jesus Christ I'm dumb, I just recognized your name. Anybody on this forum has a better chance of getting better comments out of a toilet than you. Fuck.


 
You are taking this way too seriously. Please learn to recognize a joke when you see one. It'll be better for your health.


----------



## Foxi4 (Dec 4, 2012)

xwatchmanx said:


> I'm not buying the games as 'retribution' though... as I mentioned in a previous post, I'm only buying the games I genuinely liked, and would like to own.


Oh, I was just over-emphasizing it.  In a way, piracy was means for you to do some trial runs, and once you dropped it, you bought the games you enjoyed - that's a good thing.


----------



## RodrigoDavy (Dec 4, 2012)

I pirate for two reasons:

- Games are expensive as hell
- I kind of hope piracy forces the industry to change (I know this is very silly)

Main reason I buy a game:

- Game is avaible for a low price and/or is easily obtainable (aka Download)
- To help indie and small developers
- I own a system that isn't hacked yet (aka 3DS)


----------



## ShadowSoldier (Dec 4, 2012)

RodrigoDavy said:


> I pirate for two reasons:
> 
> - Games are expensive as hell
> *- I kind of hope piracy forces the industry to change (I know this is very silly)*
> ...


How and why would you want it o change?


----------



## RodrigoDavy (Dec 4, 2012)

ShadowSoldier said:


> How and why would you want it o change?


 
This video in this link discuss piracy quite well:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/piracy

What I like the most about it is the part he says: "Companies should not punish their customers because of piracy" and "Companies must give benefits to customers who buy their products legally"

To sum it up, most people pirate because in the end you have the same benefits of buying the game. What if companies thought about an effective way to make a legally bought game a far superior experience than a pirated version?


----------



## xwatchmanx (Dec 4, 2012)

RodrigoDavy said:


> This video in this link discuss piracy quite well:
> 
> http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/piracy
> 
> ...


Except the companies are enacting this DRM BECAUSE of piracy. Not the other way around.


----------



## chavosaur (Dec 4, 2012)

Theres one thing that always bugs me about piracy debates that people kind of skip over.
Nobody pays attention to the actual AMMOUNT of people that pirate. Its not a very large number of the population. Its like a fly biting an elephants ass. It doesnt make to large of a difference.
Secondly, is this fact. Most people who pirate, pirate games for systems they cannot play on anymore. Many people pitate games from their childhood or games they never played before that are super retro. Games that are available in no ther way and arent getting produced anymore. And im not talking about Virtual console titles, im talking games that havent been remade since their original era. Which means pirating it results in no one really losing money, if its not even being produced anymore! 

Dont get me wrong, i know people pirate new games too. But i refer you back to answer 1. How much money have franchises REALLY lost and been hurt, by piracy? Look at black ops 2, broke records by making over 500 million in sales. And then uou hear how many people pirated it, and so its lik, a few extra millions lost. Sure it would have been nice.to have, but again, its petty change to what the franchise is still making.


----------



## RodrigoDavy (Dec 4, 2012)

xwatchmanx said:


> Except the companies are enacting this DRM BECAUSE of piracy. Not the other way around.


 
And thus, punishing their legal customers while giving advantages to pirates by offering them the opportunity of DRM free version of their games. But I've seen good changes too like more game demos and games with advertising in their free versions and with advertising in their paid versions (a really good move in my opinion).


----------



## Gahars (Dec 4, 2012)

RodrigoDavy said:


> What if companies thought about an effective way to make a legally bought game a far superior experience than a pirated version?


 
It's called Steam.

It's not the perfect solution, sure, but it gets the hooks in deep. With all of the sales, social features, etc., it's hard to resist; I know many former pirates who now complain that they can't stop buying games.



xwatchmanx said:


> Except the companies are enacting this DRM BECAUSE of piracy. Not the other way around.


 
Eh, it can be something of a vicious cycle. Companies install DRM to stop piracy, so people pirate to avoid the DRM. Companies see that people are pirating their game, so they install DRM to stop the pirating, so people pirate to avoid the DRM, etc.

I think the issue of piracy is a bit murkier than most people give it credit for. It's not "right", sure, but it isn't outright "stealing" either. Piracy can even have some benefits for developers, like widening their exposure. Examining the issue through the lens of traditional values on theft is like trying to understand nuclear bombs through the lens of conventional weaponry. We're dealing with something new here, and our thinking needs to reflect that; the consequences can be quite disastrous otherwise.


----------



## RodrigoDavy (Dec 4, 2012)

chavosaur said:


> Nobody pays attention to the actual AMMOUNT of people that pirate. Its not a very large number of the population. Its like a fly biting an elephants ass. It doesnt make to large of a difference.


 
Take my country as an example. Video game consoles are sold already hacked in most stores. People actually laught at you if you say you bought a legal copy of a game when you could buy a cheap pirate version. You could argue that my country is not a big market for garming, but don't forget it represents almost 50% of South America in terms of territorial area and has a population of almost 200 millions.


----------



## RodrigoDavy (Dec 4, 2012)

Gahars said:


> It's called Steam.
> 
> It's not the perfect solution, sure, but it gets the hooks in deep. With all of the sales, social features, etc., it's hard to resist; I know many former pirates who now complain that they can't stop buying games.


 
I actually like Steam. I bought the Portal games from them that I had previously pirated. They even started selling games in Brazil's currency too   Only reason I still don't use it is because I'm waiting for proper linux support


----------



## Chary (Dec 4, 2012)

It's the fact that there is an option, which has no repercussions.

You can have your morals, and legitimately purchase something. That's fine. You can also pirate the exact same thing, for free. It may be illegal, but where is the punishment? The chances are that if you torrent a movie you don't own, and keep it, nothing will happen. The police don't show up at your door and demand the files or money. You get away with the _crime_


----------



## RodrigoDavy (Dec 4, 2012)

Chary said:


> It's the fact that there is an option, which has no repercussions.
> 
> You can have your morals, and legitimately purchase something. That's fine. You can also pirate the exact same thing, for free. It may be illegal, but where is the punishment? The chances are that if you torrent a movie you don't own, and keep it, nothing will happen. The police don't show up at your door and demand the files or money. You get away with the _crime_


 
You just remembered me of my economy teacher. He teached something called the "Games Theory". To sum it up, two players have a limited number of options they can choose. Each player will always choose the option where he/she gains the most, regardless of the consequence to the other player. This theory is often used to compare the behaviour of companies and customers. This theory is also heavily used in game of chances.


----------



## DJPlace (Dec 4, 2012)

the other reason i got in to piracy is games that have not be release here in the states... but people have taken there times and made them in English words like for example JUS Puyo Puyo the new fire emblem game. that was the reason i jumped on the wagon and it should of been the only reason...


----------



## Nah3DS (Dec 4, 2012)

RodrigoDavy said:


> Take my country as an example. Video game consoles are sold already hacked in most stores. People actually laught at you if you say you bought a legal copy of a game when you could buy a cheap pirate version. You could argue that my country is not a big market for garming, but don't forget it represents almost 50% of South America in terms of territorial area and has a population of almost 200 millions.


Same here man.... I remember when I asked about an unmodded Wii at a videogame store. They laugh at me and ask: "What? do you plan on buying original games?". It's hilarious, they sell consoles with homebrew that some of you guys coded.

Actually, none of the videogame stores here in argentina have original games. In fact, when the D3-2 drive (the one that cannot read backups) appeared here... you know what they did? they started to sell all consoles with an external USB DVD drive, so they can keep selling you their cheap ass copies. The external drive wasn't optional, of course.


----------



## Hells Malice (Dec 4, 2012)

chavosaur said:


> Theres one thing that always bugs me about piracy debates that people kind of skip over.
> Nobody pays attention to the actual AMMOUNT of people that pirate. Its not a very large number of the population. Its like a fly biting an elephants ass. It doesnt make to large of a difference.
> Secondly, is this fact. Most people who pirate, pirate games for systems they cannot play on anymore. Many people pitate games from their childhood or games they never played before that are super retro. Games that are available in no ther way and arent getting produced anymore. And im not talking about Virtual console titles, im talking games that havent been remade since their original era. Which means pirating it results in no one really losing money, if its not even being produced anymore!
> 
> Dont get me wrong, i know people pirate new games too. But i refer you back to answer 1. How much money have franchises REALLY lost and been hurt, by piracy? Look at black ops 2, broke records by making over 500 million in sales. And then uou hear how many people pirated it, and so its lik, a few extra millions lost. Sure it would have been nice.to have, but again, its petty change to what the franchise is still making.


 
BLOPS2 is a completely invalid example. It's an online game. I dunno about 360, but PS3 and PC both don't have a way to play online with a pirated copy (except cracked servers on PC and those fucking suck and have no one). Thus people really don't have a choice. Plus most people who play BLOPS2 are around 12 years old. Too stupid to pirate, and their parents likely wouldn't know how to pirate it either even if it did work.
Gaming giants don't take much of a hit from piracy compared to what they sell. This is true. But like I said way way back in my post, is it's the little guys who really get screwed by piracy. Piracy DOES hurt when your game isn't guaranteed to sell a million or over copies, like more niche titles (Non-Squeenix JRPGs would be a good example here). Smaller companies like Aksys (probably many others I can't think of off the top of my head) and several indy devs do get taken for a sizeable chunk thanks to piracy.

Piracy is nowhere near as caustic to the market as people often proclaim, but it definitely does hurt a fair bit for lesser known titles.


----------

