# Existence of God?



## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

Before we start let's try and get a few things clear, I'm not flambaiting I'm looking for opinions on this, also if your going to read this thread and blow little comments completely out of proportion leave. now. If your somebody that's really defensive about this kind of stuff and you know you'll end up in a huge flame war of racial slurs you can also leave. This thread will be kept open as long as nobody flames, please don't get the thread locked. If you don't agree with something post why and with reasons, not just "U STUPID FK I HOPE U GO HELL!"

Believer's of god state that he is 

1) Omnipotent
2)Omniscient
3)Omnibenevolent

These are obviously easily attacked issues, and often attacked issues but they still make sense to attack. If god is Omniscient then he has knowledge of the hardships and failures that the human race has encounters, he has knowledge that the humans lead wars against other humans, and that we don't come in peace, but even with that knowledge he isn't *KIND* enough to stop the wars or even try too, so that means one of two things. He *CAN'T* stop the wars because he doesn't have the power to stop them meaning he is NOT omnipotent. The second option is that he isn't kind enough to stop the wars meaning he isn't omnibenevolent. The believer's state that those three factors are what has made up God and why he is the "ruler" but not all three of those can be correct defining God or any other human being. 


PS : Don't flame me please.
PSS : I'm not Atheist, I beleive in God.


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## Gore (Dec 21, 2009)

Honestly, anybody who isn't a Christian is a plain moron.


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## p1ngpong (Dec 21, 2009)

Yeah he could easily stop all the wars, end all pain and stuff like that if he wanted.

But we still have 10% warns for eating his apple so meh.


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## raulpica (Dec 21, 2009)

p1ngpong said:
			
		

> Yeah he could easily stop all the wars, end all pain and stuff like that if he wanted.
> 
> But we still have 10% warns for eating his apple so meh.


[/thread]



p1ngy


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## Alato (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm not really christian or anything, but.

You're taking kindness as it's generally interpreted by people. But what if letting war exist with humans and other terrible things like that is really part of a more profound kindness.... :0

But nah, I don't believe in him as an actual existence. As is clear with the millions of Grecian Gods, people just seek an explanation for everything. And those who need them badly enough either find one or make one. And during the development of society in the world, Christianity has had its influence.


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## Slyakin (Dec 21, 2009)

I believe in God, and if I can answer your question, I believe that he doesn't stop wars because... why would he? If he stopped war like that, we wouldn't learn. He gave humans free will for a reason, and this shows how they'll be judged in the afterlife.  Now, some might think that " just let them go based on their minds or something." Well, wouldn't it be nicer to let them do what they want to do in the world of the living? It might also let them change their fate. No one knows if fate is changeable. Possibly, no one will ever find out.


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

@above : So your saying its nicer to let people blow the fuck out of each other rather then being a good citizen and stopping the fights? Isn't that a double standard? I'm sure if you ever had kids you wouldn't want them to do whatever they pleased. Your also saying the governments should let us do whatever the hell we want until we learn?


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## Deleted_171835 (Dec 21, 2009)

Uh oh. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




These kind of topics never work out. Some guy of some religion and vice-versa get in an argument and next thing you know, it's a whole flame war.'


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

Revolutionize said:
			
		

> Uh oh.
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. Everybody seems to disagree with the statements in the original post, I also disagree but I just wanted to see others opinions, I already stated that in the original post.


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## mthrnite (Dec 21, 2009)

If you guys can keep this civil, I won't close the thread.
So avoid the temptation to call the other guy a moron, and everything should be fine.

Thank you.


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## jgu1994 (Dec 21, 2009)

Revolutionize said:
			
		

> Uh oh.
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Agreed. Sooner or later we're gonna get a comment from either someone who is very left wing or right wing on the religious spectrum and it's going to get blown out of proportion. This is a gaming forum not a religious forum. I vote to lock before this goes out of hand. Obviously the op has good intentions (from what i can see and compared to other religious topics i've seen) so let's just save the trouble and lock.


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## Magmorph (Dec 21, 2009)

The existence of god cannot be proven or disproven, simply because theists claim he is immaterial. However attributes cannot be applied to something that is immaterial.

The evidence that supports god existing is minimal at best. There is no logical reason to believe in god even if god did exist.


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## Gore (Dec 21, 2009)

I was joking. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I'm a pragmatic agnostic.


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## mthrnite (Dec 21, 2009)

Gore said:
			
		

> I was joking.
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I knew you were joking. Still.


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## 89star (Dec 21, 2009)

Well you have your opinion but  try to think of it this way. would you rather have a friend that did whatever you said and loved you because they had to or would it mean more to you if that friend loved you and went through hardships for you because he wanted to. eve ate the apple when told not to and that let sin into the world god knew it was going to happen and the wars and hardships are a result of that. yea things could be perfect here on earth but i think god wants people to truly love him and believe in him meaning that you have faith without any proof and you fight the urges of your body and you sacrifice and go through hardships because you love him not because everything is perfect and you dont have any other choice i know if a friend or family member gets there ass kicked for me or suffered for my benefit it would mean the world to me and it probly means alot to god. of course dont take advice from me its just a thought. btw gbatemp owns!


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

mthrnite said:
			
		

> If you guys can keep this civil, I won't close the thread.
> So avoid the temptation to call the other guy a moron, and everything should be fine.
> 
> Thank you.



Thanks 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## Deleted_171835 (Dec 21, 2009)

89star said:
			
		

> Well you have your opinion but  try to think of it this way. would you rather have a friend that did whatever you said and loved you because they had to or would it mean more to you if that friend loved you and went through hardships for you because he wanted to. eve ate the apple when told not to and that let sin into the world god knew it was going to happen and the wars and hardships are a result of that. yea things could be perfect here on earth but i think god wants people to truly love him and believe in him meaning that you have faith without any proof and you fight the urges of your body and you sacrifice and go through hardships because you love him not because everything is perfect and you dont have any other choice i know if a friend or family member gets there ass kicked for me or suffered for my benefit it would mean the world to me and it probly means alot to god. of course dont take advice from me its just a thought. btw gbatemp pwndowns!


Fixed






Then again, would you like a friend who did not respect you and wanted to blow you up. If something is preventable, why not prevent it. To test us? More like, to 'cause our own extinction.


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

Revolutionize said:
			
		

> 89star said:
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If there is a God he/she is taking "Learn from your mistakes" a _little_ to far.


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## 89star (Dec 21, 2009)

lol oh yea my web lingo sucks we are all gonna have strong opinions but we can believe whatever we want i just happen to believe that god gave us that right some christians and other religions will get huffy if you dont agree with them but at the end of the day you follow what feels right to you and share your ideas and dont try to force them i think that is what drives people away from organized religion.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 21, 2009)

LastRegret, no matter what you say there is no valid proof for or against God. Christians, along with people from other religions all interpret God in their own way, instead of interpreting God in a universal way. Therefore, what you say to Christians may not apply to Muslims, or Jewish people (which basically believe in the same God, but this God does not have all the properties Christians think He has. In a Muslim/Islamic world, God is so strong that the human mind was MADE to not be able to understand).

This topic is entirely pointless because God is so vague to the human mind. _Can_ God build a wall he can't bring down? Can He make a mirror He can't look through (how do you guys like that oxymoron? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)? These things we will never know until we die. And that's the point of religion, life after death. Poor people want a reason why they were born poor and other's were born rich, myself included. I want to know why only some people take the time to work instead of taking the "easy" way out and not get educated.

Also, because nearly every human being capable of thought is afraid of death, we look for _something_ that will save us from death.

Even with this said, we still cannot prove God does not exist. It is human nature to cover up a problem that eats them emotionally from the inside out. But because of an idea like God, we cannot fully shut-out our emotions; because, what if He does exist? What if that giant spaghetti monster does exist? What  if unicorns, fairies, and peace exist? _I don't know. No one knows. This is something we can only "learn" after death._


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## Magmorph (Dec 21, 2009)

Believing in something without any proof is the definition of delusional. The question was not referring to the Judeo/Christian god or any particular god.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 21, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Believing in something without any proof is the definition of delusional. The question was not referring to the Judeo/Christian god or any particular god.


That's true but a lot of religious folk believe they have evidence (usually only for themselves or for family) that God exists. Those events can be interpreted any way someone wants them to. Whether it be undeniable proof or a coincidence.

Well, the three "O's" (which I'm going to refer to it as) is usually a Christian belief.


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## VashTS (Dec 21, 2009)

We cannot prove the existence nor the nonexistence of god, and that is why the debate will rage on forever, all due to some creative writers from ancient times.  Every culture has their own interpretation of the "magical story", usually called a bible or koran or torah or whatever.  This is a brilliant story created, maybe with or maybe without, the foresight that it would create these sects, which are brutally harsh to their members.  Religion clubs are so beyond archaic in rationality, I would rather sit in prison than be a part.  From what I can tell, religion groups usually act something like this: "You don't believe, you can't join us!"  Well what if I like the people that are a part of the group?  What if I want to join this club, participate in kindly acts like you do, but choose not to believe in this all powerful deity?  Of course you will  not let me join, its "blasphemy".  Humans tend to think we are so advanced and smart, yet these people worship documents and stories from thousands of years ago.  Go screw.  

Are there powers we don't know about?  Yes.
Are there forces we probably cannot understand?  Yes.
Is there a god? I say no but its just my opinion based on facts.

PS If you want to argue what I've said here, refer to Newton's laws.  They are quite old and we still use them, although they kind of were refined.


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## DjoeN (Dec 21, 2009)

People need something to believe in, (God, Devil, Allah, G-d, Whatever else called)

The truth is, all those wars and other killing things etc... isn't something supernatural, it's just human nature and natural balance.
Why is there war, nature disasters, diseases, etc... to prevent overpopulation, earth always finds it's way to try to get things back in balance, it's thing we can't fully understand
but earth has it's ways to keeps itself in balance, this also means population of species.

If it wasn't war that will kill us, it's something else 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, just live with it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I'm cristian, I believe in something higher, but mostly i believe in evolution and a natural balance in the universe

That said:
*I don't believe* God/Allah/G-d(Jehovah)/ Or Whatever ppl call there god)
- has all the power
- knows everything
- is perfect/morally good

If he did, he would be a dictator.

(PS: My mum was a teacher in Christianity, at the age of 12 i told her, mum, If i look at Jezus and read what he did, i think Jezus is a Hippie (He looks like a hippie) that smoked alot of joints in his days!, my punishment was going the next week everyday to church for 1 week (and she called the priest to check on me)) (good oll' times 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


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## kboxer (Dec 21, 2009)

I try and view the man/God situation like a parent with say a teenager. How many times do we show or instruct our kids on the way to live their life and how many times do they not listen. It gets to the stage our kids do not listen any more to us and learn from their mistakes. I think thousands of years ago we did communicate with God but like spoilt teenagers we slowly shut him out of our lives. That is how I view the human race and its alledged relationship to God. I believe if God arrived tomorrow noone would believe it people would call it a hoax etc.


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## Jackreyes (Dec 21, 2009)

To define omnibenevolence, first you must define good and evil, and then beyond that, the greater good, and necessary evils. These all depend on opinion, so the state of God's benevolence is purely opinion also.

God created man in his own image. If man declares war, does that not mean that God would in such circumstances?
Or perhaps of course, our punishment for war is death, our punishment for fighting is injury. It should serve as a dissuasion for those who 'are morally good'.

Omnipotent would suggest that God's will could change anything, which, could, or could not be true, it is impossible to tell as nobody knows what God's will is.

Omniscient? Surely if there is a God, he must be omniscient, the God in the Old Testament killed millions in the flood because he 'knew of their evil' or whatever the reason was.

God's existence has to be doubted though, God is a possible explanation for the creation of the universe, but it is one of many. Other than that, is there any confirmed 'divine intervention'..?


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## hatredg0d (Dec 21, 2009)

gods fake.


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## Deleted_171835 (Dec 21, 2009)

hatredg0d said:
			
		

> gods fake.


Obvious troll is obvious.

Come on! Just look at your name.


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## Magmorph (Dec 21, 2009)

Even if god could be proven to exist, you cannot apply attributes to something immaterial such as religions do.


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## hatredg0d (Dec 21, 2009)

not trollin. its the truth. god and religion are just things used to explain the previously unexplaneble...


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## Deleted_171835 (Dec 21, 2009)

Where do these attributes come from? Do you just guess this? When they say God told them this, how do they know that he wasn't just egotistical?

Anybody care to explain?


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 21, 2009)

DjoeN said:
			
		

> People need something to believe in, (God, Devil, Allah, G-d, Whatever else called)
> 
> The truth is, all those wars and other killing things etc... isn't something supernatural, it's just human nature and natural balance.
> Why is there war, nature disasters, diseases, etc... to prevent overpopulation, earth always finds it's way to try to get things back in balance, it's thing we can't fully understand
> but earth has it's ways to keeps itself in balance, this also means population of species.


It's a little odd that you say that. What does war have to do with the earth balancing itself out? And if it truly were a way for the earth to get rid of overpopulation, then honestly, the earth is not doing a very good job at all. Population (~6.7 billion) is said to double by 2050 (or 2100, I can't remember).

Not to mention war is fought with a lot less soldiers and a lot more firepower these days. You are also applying that a nuclear war is the earth's ultimate defense against overpopulation.

I can see natural disasters having an argument somewhat, but even that would be somewhat of a stretch.


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## Tanas (Dec 21, 2009)

What more proof do you need?


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

hatredg0d said:
			
		

> not trollin. its the truth. god and religion are just things used to explain the previously unexplaneble...



How exactly is saying there is a God that exists trying to explain the previously unexplainable? Are you saying without the knowledge of evolution we would assume there is a god that just created the human race? Then if the previously unexplainable is explained then why are some people not convinced? 

Also, if God is omnipotent then why doesn't he make everybody believe him? Is he giving us/them their own opinions? He has the power to control our/there thoughts if he wants so why doesn't he? He obviously wants his presence known, he if didn't and he does exist then him being omnipotent he would have the power to stop the spread of knowledge/assumptions of a god. Or he might just want use to figure it out ourselves meaning he isn't omnibenevolent because he isn't giving us the knowledge we strongly desire or need to make future choices in our life.

@above, Its safe to say that guy is didn't take his pills. He's trying to prove God's existence 'cause of the shape of a fucking banana?


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## Hatsu (Dec 21, 2009)




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## fermio100 (Dec 21, 2009)

It all comes to the free will.

God coud stop the wars, deceases and other misfortunes human race suffers, but it wouldn't make sense.

1- God gave us free will, we do what we want, the way we want and when we want, but we'll have to suffer the consequences (hell)
2- If you reppent from your heart and accept god you will be saved, no matter what, but you have to be honest and accept God.
3- God could stop war, but God won't because it would be against free will, God doesn't MAKE you do things you don't, devil does.
4- For you to enter heaven you have to have been a good person, or you have to have reppented from all you sins, therefore we could infere that God IS omniscient, because only being omniscient would be possible to tell the truth about us.

It's a matter of logic based on what you pointed, I'm not sure if I believe in god or not.


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## Magmorph (Dec 21, 2009)

lastRegret said:
			
		

> Then if the previously unexplainable is explained then why are some people not convinced?


People who were raised religious are not going to accept that they will not live forever in heaven. They put more trust in what their parents teach them or what their friends tell them than what the evidence is telling them. People are just so scared to die they would believe anything telling them they will live forever.

@ fermio100: Why is God more moral or good than the devil?


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## Deleted_171835 (Dec 21, 2009)

Ever Lasting life in heaven? I find immortality weird. Would I really like to live forever? The same boring life again and again. The after-life is unexplained and most religions that talk about the after-life confuse me more.

Not that it really matters anyways. I'll find out anyways when I die.


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> lastRegret said:
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But they aren't leading the same lives, they sort of start live over in a "better" area, at the same age. They lose everybody close too them. So they can't say there living forever until they've died, and reborned or whatever they do to get into heaven. 

Also, what about Heaven's population people argue that God is Omnibenevolent but he is letting us choose for ourselves lives to lead, and they also argue he isn't stopping self-chosen wars that have started because he doesn't want an over-population, well how about Heaven, if God truthfully exists and as he is known to exist and he is Omnibenevolent then he wants what is best for humans, which is Heaven. And God is also Omnipotent meaning he has the right to choose who comes to Heaven and who doesn't but since he wants the best for us what can he do? Also if he does happen to not send everybody to heaven and let them suffer then what about when the select people that do get into heaven. The population will grow and grow, will Heaven grow to fit the population? Its supposed to be the most peaceful place so dieing won't do any good as it isn't what is most wanted be God. How will they resolve the population problems? Sending the not-as-good-as-others people to hell or back down to earth? Then that's not being Omnibenevolent


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 21, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> lastRegret said:
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ie, go back to my very first post. Did you read it lastRegret?


@Revolutionize: You don't come back to earth over and over again. You become God's servant in heaven.


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## fgghjjkll (Dec 21, 2009)

i heard that goths and emos believe and follow the devil D:


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## nutella (Dec 21, 2009)

Before I go anywhere in this video, let me begin by saying that I consider myself an thoughtful but struggling Catholic. No flaming at all please as I know many of you look down upon Catholics and if that's your opinion, so be it.



			
				lastRegret said:
			
		

> @above, Its safe to say that guy is didn't take his pills. He's trying to prove God's existence 'cause of the shape of a fucking banana?



That wasn't the point of the video. The point was that something that seems so very simple has been given so much creative thought and all this occurs within nature. I don't know of infinite examples like that, but I do know of similar examples that show that there is just no conceivable way everything around us is caused by chance. Of course, you cannot take the shape of a banana to prove that an almighty being exists, but something about it just shows that there has got to be some creator.

Again, I can almost bet I am going to hear the argument, "Who created God?" In complete honesty, I cannot answer that. Nobody can answer that. It gets to a point where logic can no longer prove the existence of a greater being, and we must rely on faith.

In my own experiences, I have had a lot of trouble with this and I will continue to learn about my faith. Some common questions still arise such as to the perfection of God. Is he really perfect?


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

fgghjjkll said:
			
		

> i heard that goths and emos believe and follow the devil D:



No, Emo is short for Emotional (I think) they are just not happy with there lives, and they don't want to be here anymore but lay peacefully in the ground. I'm not sure about Goths but I don't think they follow the Devil. Satanists on the other hand worship the Devil as others worship the God.


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## fristi (Dec 21, 2009)

i drank god


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## ` regret . (Dec 21, 2009)

hamtotem said:
			
		

> Before I go anywhere in this video, let me begin by saying that I consider myself an thoughtful but struggling Catholic. No flaming at all please as I know many of you look down upon Catholics and if that's your opinion, so be it.
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If you beleive in evolution you can beleive that as we grew to become the mammals we are today we grew accustomed to things in life and adapted to help us in life.

@above : Nice to know I can buy God for 1.99.


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## Sephi (Dec 21, 2009)

fgghjjkll said:
			
		

> i heard that goths and emos believe and follow the devil D:


You silly.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 21, 2009)

hamtotem said:
			
		

> Before I go anywhere in this video, let me begin by saying that I consider myself an thoughtful but struggling Catholic. No flaming at all please as I know many of you look down upon Catholics and if that's your opinion, so be it.
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You guys are both joking right? This man is mocking God, not stating he exists because of bananas. The guy to the right of him is laughing. Plus, he said bananas are perfectly proportioned to our mouths...anything we are able to chew on is perfectly proportioned to our mouths, if this wasn't true we wouldn't be able to eat it!


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## Magmorph (Dec 21, 2009)

@ hamtotem

You do know the modern banana has been extensively modified. It had to be domesticated by man. In fact this is what an undomesticated banana looks like.


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## fristi (Dec 21, 2009)

i like banana's
god likes banana's to, just look at the shape of the banana! it must be






 i must be god, we have so mutch in common


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## Sephi (Dec 21, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> @ hamtotem
> 
> You do know the modern banana has been extensively modified. It had to be domesticated by man. In fact this is what an undomesticated banana looks like.


I happen to have this handy at all times just in case http://www.damninteresting.com/the-unfortu...e-of-the-banana


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 21, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> @ hamtotem
> 
> You do know the modern banana has been extensively modified. It had to be domesticated by man. In fact this is what an undomesticated banana looks like.


Do scientists do this with other fruits too?

When I first heard about this, I looked it up. lol There were pink bananas, blue bananas, green (not the same as the domestic, under-riped (is that even the word for it?) banana) bananas, and oddly shaped bananas.


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## haohmaru6 (Dec 21, 2009)

God is whatever an individual believes God is.

Anything else anyone else says is irrelevant.

You must comply.

Nothing to see here.

Move along.


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## HateBreed (Dec 21, 2009)

if he stopped all the wars then that means that not everyone has free will the reason to make us was free will its how we use it that affects the world maybe God left us to rule the world as a test to see how far man can go before he reaches his limit in blasphemy and arrogance- yah philosophy lol


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 21, 2009)

Well, simply put, God exists. How do I know? I am God :evillaughter:

Meh, I hate these religious debates. The concept of God is a flawed one at best. I personally think God is a giant spaghetti monster.

I did like Code Geass' interpretation of God. It's a collective of everyone's consciousness. Since God is said to "control everyone", this would be a correct interpretation. Your conscience controls everything in the world.

Personally, I don't believe in something that rules over everyone. It's like accepting a tyrant, if you think about it. One person with absolute power over everything? Hm...


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## Frederica Bernkastel (Dec 21, 2009)

Uh yeah, the thing is... the banana was shaped that way for a reason...

PROTIP: Eve came first


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## tsuna (Dec 21, 2009)

God is like BOOM headshot


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## Magmorph (Dec 21, 2009)

lastRegret said:
			
		

> If you beleive in evolution



Evolution fits the definition of a fact. It happens all of the time. Bacteria can become resistant to drugs. Bugs can become resistant to pesticides. Every year you have to get a new flu shot because the flu virus has evolved. I honestly don't see how someone could not believe in evolution.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 21, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Well, simply put, God exists. How do I know? I am God :evillaughter:
> 
> Meh, I hate these religious debates. The concept of God is a flawed one at best. I personally think God is a giant spaghetti monster.
> 
> ...


That was the way of life 600 years ago. No one wanted it, but everyone thought it was for the best. And it was, for the most part. In the beginning, revolutions of government were overly violent, and everyone thought that everyone else is their enemy. But, over time, people calmed down.

Also, a tyrant isn't always "bad."


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## silent sniper (Dec 21, 2009)

does God exist? meh, who knows. dont really care.
does the moderate "love your neighbor" God exist? again, who knows.


does the strict-ass douchebag eternal-punishment-for-sinning God exist? hell no.


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## nutella (Dec 21, 2009)

lastRegret said:
			
		

> If you beleive in evolution you can beleive that as we grew to become the mammals we are today we grew accustomed to things in life and adapted to help us in life.


And that's a fair argument. Adaptation is certainly a possibility in this situation. I was simply explaining the logic behind the video that 99% of people don't understand at first glance.

Lets look at another example that uses similar logic. Snowflakes. You can make fun of this argument all you want but just realize THIS IS NOT MY PROOF FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. You go out and find me two snowflakes that are identical. You can't. Yet each one consists of six identical points. Things like these could not have simply adapted.

If you look at everything around us its difficult to say that it all happened by chance alone. There has to be some uncaused cause that resulted in everything.

EDIT: Sorry. Could've gone deeper, but can't be bothered now. I'm way tired.


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## tsuna (Dec 21, 2009)

wow this topic is SUPER deep...its like our science class..wait nvm. our science class evolution debate was 2 vs 27. 27 believed in evolution


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## Magmorph (Dec 21, 2009)

hamtotem said:
			
		

> If you look at everything around us its difficult to say that it all happened by chance alone. There has to be some uncaused cause that resulted in everything.


If this is your argument, why can't the universe be an uncaused cause?


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## nutella (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> hamtotem said:
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There is a reason that I say the uncaused cause is God. Let me explain. If something right now occurs or begins to exist, something must have caused that something to exist. For example, if a leaf blows in the wind, the wind is the cause of the result. Correct? At some point, the universe did not exist. If the universe is the uncaused cause, then the theory is invalid. God however, is not bound by time. He has and always will exist.

I'm a teenager and my knowledge is still very limited. At some point I know you'll get me, because as I have said, I consider myself a struggling Catholic. I'm not claiming I know the answer to everything. I'm simply explaining the logic behind these arguments with the best of my knowledge.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

You are destroying your own argument. By that logic something must have caused God to exist.

While it is true our universe didn't exist at one point, the energy that caused it to exist could have always existed.


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## Panzer Tacticer (Dec 22, 2009)

Sometimes you don't need to attack a bad idea to destroy it, you merely need to make the idea not work.

We have wars and famine and pestilence, and we ask, why, why doesn't god do something?

Ok ask yourself this.

If no one died in wars, ever, because there simply was no war.
If famine didn't exist, because the world was uniformly nice and green and crop friendly and there simply was NO famine at all.
If you simply never got sick, at all, not even a little bit because there just were not diseases.

Think about it, where are you planning to put all of those people that will succeed in growing up, and having yet more people that will not have any problem growing up, and having yet more people?
You see the problem?

The problem is people want answers, and god is a convenient answer for people that simply have decided the real answer is too horrible.

War is not a bad thing, it is not a good thing, it is just a thing. It's part of life. And we humans are not alone. Ant colonies war on each other too.
Famine, it's just life's way of saying 'you were not meant to live there, move or die'.
Disease, that is just life saying sorry you are not healthy enough. Or sorry you were not lucky enough.

God does not permit all of those nasty things, because god never made those nasty things to begin with.

God is not all knowing, how could he be all knowing? If you have this magical free will, then he can't know what your decision will be till you make it. If God already knows your choice, then you simply never had a choice to make, it was already predecided.

Logic, it is a very power tool, but sadly it is also a bright light which you can shine on a bad idea.

There is no god, not the one in the Christian Bible at least.

Now for a small consulting fee, I'll teach you how Black Holes may reveal the needed physics to understand the forces present during the Big Bang event (which you can still witness if you know where to look).


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 22, 2009)

Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.

Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.

So, people use these debates to tote how savvy they are. They'll give some big list of supporting reason with Thesaurus.com open in the other tab and make it all fancy-schmancy only so they can be praised by their comrades and championed as a big, booming voice of your debate. On top of that, the whole debate is simply a giant oil spill in a forest. One flame and the entire forest goes up in flames. That's why I try my best to stop these dumb little debates of mundane issues. The only way for one side to win this debate is to literally have the other side die in genocide. That may sound a little harsh and severe, but this is what always happens in a fight over religion. It's more than a way of thinking, it's a part of existence. In debates like this, you're not trying to erase the whiteboard of all the marker, you're trying to erase the whiteboard of all the white.

Does anyone care if there is a God? None of this would change anything. Pushing your non-religious beliefs onto someone else makes you just as bad as the other religion, and visa versa. The fact is what I believe personally is personal. It's not something that I'll push on someone else.

And for all we know there could be a god. It sounds insane, to believe that some giant power is ruling everything, but look at us now. Did our ancients think cities could be eliminated with nothing but a single bomb? Did our ancients think we could be flying through the air? Do you think our ancients would think we could communicate with someone from across the entire planet instantly? No, of course not. 

So we don't need these topics at all. It's absolutely pointless.


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## nutella (Dec 22, 2009)

FEFL said:
			
		

> You guys are both joking right? This man is mocking God, not stating he exists because of bananas. The guy to the right of him is laughing. Plus, he said bananas are perfectly proportioned to our mouths...anything we are able to chew on is perfectly proportioned to our mouths, if this wasn't true we wouldn't be able to eat it!


This guy's for real. I've heard it before. I never said I believe what he says but I understand why he says it.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

The only reason to debate anything is to push your beliefs on someone else. Your opinion is that it is pointless to debate about the existence of god. Are you not pushing that belief on someone else?


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> The only reason to debate anything is to push your beliefs on someone else. Your opinion is that it is pointless to debate about the existence of god. Are you not pushing that belief on someone else?



There's a big difference here. You're pushing your beliefs on religion. I'm pushing my beliefs on the debate as an object. The world can't function without the pushing of beliefs. It's how the world is run. The difference is on what belief you're pushing on. Pushing your religious beliefs on someone is something that simply is no good and a dead end.


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## Sonicslasher (Dec 22, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.
> 
> Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.
> 
> ...


I find this to be completely true. Any time I've gotten into a religion vs atheist (or any white vs black one such as political party vs opposing party) argument it's always ended up with both sides believing the same thing they did beforehand. Despite this though, people will always feel the need to try to get others to see it the way they do.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 22, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.
> 
> Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.
> 
> ...


Ah, sorry. He's extremely good at sounding so ridiculous it sounds like he's mocking something.


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## nutella (Dec 22, 2009)

FEFL said:
			
		

> hamtotem said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's talking about a theory called creative design. I think he's wrong, but the theory behind it is an old theory.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Magmorph said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What exactly is the difference? Pushing religious beliefs is obviously not a dead end. People are converted all of the time. It all depends on how strongly the person you are arguing with believes in something. Sure, some people are going to be stubborn and emotionally attached to their beliefs but that is to be expected with any debate.


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## anaxs (Dec 22, 2009)

in my religion there is proof of gods existance
now im not saying that those who dont belive in god and those who think god doesnt exist are wrong, im just telling you what i believe


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## ` regret . (Dec 22, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Okay, that's it, Guild enters the fray.
> 
> Religious debates are not about religion. Yup, I said it. It's about people trying to gratify themselves. You think that saying "blah blah blah there is a god" or "blah blah blah there is no god" will actually convince one side or the other? I've been in the middle of many a religious debate and I've finally given up. I have not seen one person on either side switch sides. It's a state of mind. Asking someone to see your point if the opposition is the die-hard opposition, you may as well ask a black man to stop being black or a white man to grow a large penis. It's not gonna happen, people.
> 
> ...










. I've actually went from die-hard supporter of God to extremely questioning his existence. I've almost been completely convinced there is no God by threads like this, but I have to side with you I just wanted to see reasons that contradict me and other's opinions.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 22, 2009)

lastRegret said:
			
		

> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was in the same position as you but then my online friend showed me about Islam. Now I am a pretty firm believer in God.


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## jan777 (Dec 22, 2009)

LOLZ we're all gonna die in 2012 anyway!

just kidding, i just thought someone had to say it.


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## FAST6191 (Dec 22, 2009)

As others have said we have done this before and I have films to watch so no essays today, instead a quote from the great seer Mr Mercury:
"I don't believe in Peter Pan, Frankenstein or Superman".


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## NeSchn (Dec 22, 2009)

I personally believe there is a higher being and a lower being, either God and Satan or some others. I don't go to church and practice my religion but when it feels appropriate I will do a little prayer or worship. A lot of people don't believe this coming from a kid that rocks out to Satanic Black Metal all the time but its true


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## yuki019 (Dec 22, 2009)

You see war is caused by animal instinct. Every animal fights for what he needs.
God gave us free will because He wants us to love him from our hearts. He doesn't want to force us to love Him. Which would you prefer, someone who loves you just because(unconditional love) or because he is forced to love you. Second, He let's us do what we want because remember He is just. If you do good, you are rewarded. If you do bad, you will be punished. Just like the local police. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Just my opinion..


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

Here are your options:

1. Believe in God
2. Burn for all eternity in hell

Is that really a choice? No one would ever choose #2 unless they were extremely masochistic. Besides things that are "good" and "bad" are based on the society, not God.


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## Sterling (Dec 22, 2009)

I have to agree with Guild, though I am a Christian, (and I like nothing better to see someone get saved and be happy about it) I don't talk to other people about it unless the ask the question first. Because this is my preacher's job, and people come to church either because they are believers, or someone with questions (believer or not). 

@Magmorph: If those are really choices, which one would you have chosen. 1, 2, the 3rd choice of live your life how you want, and still go to hell, but you feel better knowing you did more things, or the 4th choice, Believe, repent, do things, repent more (for no one is perfect and everyone makes bad choices (sin)), and then when you finally die, you will have a place in eternal life, and not eternal death. Tell me the 4th choice sounds good doesn't it. People say that this choice provides cover up for a certain weakness in the human heart. But, it doesn't weaken it, it only strengthens it. This fourth choice gives morals, and sometimes the insight to comfort people in their time of need. I have made my two Atheist 
friends sometimes question weather their decision to disbelieve was the right choice, and even if they still don't believe, thats fine because it is a start. I might not have the urge to do some of the stuff non-believers do (I use this sentence loosely), but I still live my life to the limit that I set, and I still get exhilaration doing some of the stuff. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Please, I know none of you give two shits about my personal statements/beliefs, but this is just food for thought: What if there is a god, are you making the right decision, should you reconsider, or continue on you own path?

There, that is my piece, go think about it.


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## Tanas (Dec 22, 2009)

Faith is just another word for ignorance.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

There is no third or fourth choice when it comes to Christianity. Either you believe in God and ask for forgiveness or you are an atheist and you go to hell no matter what you do. It is very black and white there is no middle ground. God will apparently forgive anything except for being an atheist. Why not go murder everyone? God will forgive you for it as long as you aren't an atheist.

You cannot honestly look at the bible and think it is a moral book. It tells you to hold slave, oppress women, kill gay people, kill atheists, and kill your own children. 

God commands so much murder in the bible it is sickening.

Numbers 31:7, 17-18

They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Samuel 15:2-4

thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

Deuteronomy 20:16
however, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes


If there was a Christian god, is he deserving of worship?


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## Sterling (Dec 22, 2009)

Tanas said:
			
		

> Faith is just another word for ignorance.



So then the lack of faith means the same thing. The definition of faith is believing in something that hasn't been proven yet. eg. I have faith that my Tempmas entry will get first place, and come Christmas day I will see if that faith was placed in something that was not going to come to pass. If something hasn't been proven yet you cannot be ignorant for believing in it, though if something has been proven to be wrong, and you have faith in it then you are ignorant. Since religion hasn't been proven wrong or right, I therefore am not ignorant for believing in a God!

@Magmorph: The Old Testament of the Bible is full of all the brutalities and wrath of God, so comparing modern Christians who believe more in the new testament (which is full of miracles, and love) is just wrong. You have the wrong ideas about modern Christans. The Jewish people are the ones who put their faith in the Old testament, not Christians! These verses hold no water as you are trying to compare Christianity to Judaism (yes the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah, but correct me if I am wrong). There are lessons to be learned in the Old Testament of course, but the Christians follow the New Testament.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

Jesus says in the New Testement that the Old Testament should be followed. 

Matthew 5:17-18

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


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## Sterling (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Jesus says in the New Testement that the Old Testament should be followed.
> 
> Matthew 5:17-18
> 
> Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.




Wow, you just completely demolished my wall of text. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Well since the Old Testament's lessons are just important as the New Testament's, I am going to infer that one shows the token of God's wrath, and one shows the token of his kindness. I will say, that I will never be the hand of death, except in the case of self-defense and war. I love most people for who they are, and I can forgive and forget things people have done to me. I am not the judgement giver, God is the eternal judge. Don't hold things against Christians for what their bible says, judge on their character, and what they do. When I said that Christianity gives me morals, I was not only referring to the Bible, but the way my mind say I should live my life. I don't follow the Bible to the T, no one does. All people of any religion follow only what they want to, and it is very rare that anyone conforms directly to the bible most of the time. So don't judge me, or anyone else by their religion, because your lack of religion gives you nothing to compare yourself to. All you have is your judge of character. You are too harsh in the judgement of others because of the hate for their religion. Judge people on what you can see, not what isn't immediately out in the open!

Okay so this post is no longer on weather God exists or not, because it has not been proven yet. I know you and others don't believe, and it's almost impossible to change these opinions. But to everybody who judges on the terms of their religion need to GTFO and take the above message to heart, because your life and everybody else's will be much better if you all got along on the terms of character, and the visible aspects of a person's life!

I hope I make my point clear that no one is going to be swayed here, and that this whole debate is pointless because there is no end to the unproven arguments that God exists/not. In the case of does he deserve worship, the answer is yes. The one who (though not proven) supposedly gave the human race life deserves a whole lot more than worship. He deserves complete obedience, which is something humans will never be able to give.

There. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Also Magmorph, I am respectful of other people. If I just judged people on what religion they had, I would have no Atheist, Buddhist, Pagan, etc. friends.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

I know Christian's don't follow what the bible says I just have a problem with what it says. I think you would have the same morals if you were a Christian or an atheist. Nearly everyone I know is a Christian and I don't hate them for it. I know most of them were just raised that way.


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## Sterling (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> I know Christian's don't follow what the bible says I just have a problem with what it says. I think you would have the same morals if you were a Christian or an atheist. Nearly everyone I know is a Christian and I don't hate them for it. I know most of them were just raised that way.


Alright, I concede defeat for now. I am no Bible Scholar, so as an effect I am unable to make good arguments in the defense of my beliefs. Friends for now?


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## Veristical Blaze (Dec 22, 2009)

I believe in myself that's all i need


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

I have nothing against you Sterl500. I would have considered myself a Christian at one time.


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## Sterling (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> I have nothing against you Sterl500. I would have considered myself a Christian at one time.



Well we are all faced with choices, each one goes down a different path. It's all we can do to stick to our own path. Glad you have nothing against me.


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## DozerGuy (Dec 22, 2009)

God sitting on a cloud in the sky is an illusion. Created by people to control other people.  God is a word that has been over used and is wrapped in superstition. There is positive energy and negative energy. Each manifests itself into all of our thought processes. The enlightened Have learned to bathe and set their minds in the light, and thus their thoughts. Spirits live in the moment, so if you feel angry and vindictive its the feeling(spirit) at that very moment that is alive. Same with love and compassion. So does God exist, well whatever feelings and thus thoughts you have is your god no matter if its good or bad.


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## Prophet (Dec 22, 2009)

_“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings”_ - Albert Einstein

For those who are unaware of Baruch Spinoza, I implore you, read his _Ethics_. It is a bitch to read through and even many trained philosophers have trouble with it. Nonetheless, if you truly wish to understand God and not simply argue perception and tradition while flaunting superiority, then you should labor in the _Ethics_.

Here is an excerpt of one of my writings on the _Ethics_. I hope it serves as an introduction to the Spinozistic God.

_The God of the Ethics is defined as infinitely perfect and is seen as the cause of all that is and all that can be. Furthermore, this God permeates all that it creates. It can then be said that the Spinozistic God is simultaneously the spark and the resulting flame. This follows quite naturally. The oak tree is not solely the product of an acorn, but rather it is the acorn in another form. So too is this true of our entire world; all that exists is God and of God.  Intrinsically,  everything is as it must be because it follows from the perfection of God. There is then no need for God to enact control over the world, as it is perfected in God's nature. To imagine a God who must play puppeteer, is to imagine a world that does not follow from perfection and a God who is not a God; God being absolutely perfect._


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## FAST6191 (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph you have just described Pascal's wager/Pascal's Gambit, something that has seen a return with the recent whale hugging but was originally for this very debate.
I ask then which variation on the god or gods theme including the infinite number defined by my algorithm

god name= random number + abc

One commandment for each- believe in me or else- no others but me.


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## Panzer Tacticer (Dec 22, 2009)

anaxs said:
			
		

> in my religion there is proof of gods existance
> now im not saying that those who dont belive in god and those who think god doesnt exist are wrong, im just telling you what i believe



You say you have proof.

Well, lets see it.

Otherwise, might as well claim to have a dragon in your garage as well.

Claims are easy, proving them is the hard part.

No proof means you have nothing.

"Belief' isn't a 'thing'. You can't say I have my 'beliefs'. Nope you only have the attitude.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 22, 2009)

Panzer Tacticer said:
			
		

> anaxs said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I said before, proof to one person may be coincidence to another. Let me give you a story in spoiler tags, and let's see what you think of it: 



Spoiler



It was Labor Day, May 26, 2008. I had been hanging out with friends the whole day. We were riding bikes, and I was ready to go home. It was about 4 or 5 PM, and I just traded my friend a Red Version Pokemon game for a Blue Version.

Yes, that was the boring part.

Today I had no helmet on. When I was going back home (right around the corner), there was a blind spot and a small pickup truck coming my way. Thank God I was at a stop sign. Not seeing (or hearing because it was slowing down) the pickup truck I attempted to cross the street slowly on my bike, but I was still riding it. I was right in front of the stop sign when I was hit. And guess what, all I broke was my femur. No head injury, no arm injury, no ankle injury, just my thigh bone. In fact, I was wide awake. I also didn't even cry (because of my shouts because of the pain). Do you consider me lucky, or guarded? I say both.




A noun is a person, place, thing, or _idea_. You can have a belief and disregard a belief.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

If you truly were guarded, how do you know what it was guarding you?


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> If you truly were guarded, how do you know what it was guarding you?


Who I said I knew who it was guarding me? I _feel_ it was Him guarding me. That's why I said interpret it how you like.


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## Magmorph (Dec 22, 2009)

You were using it as a defense for god existing. I can infer you were referring to god. 

While personal experience may have given you justification for believing in god, your personal experience or feeling he (why does he have a gender?) exists is not valid evidence for convincing others to believe in god. There is nothing miraculous about you only getting minor injuries from a car hitting you.


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## Maz7006 (Dec 22, 2009)

Coming from both an Islamic and Christian background, hence religiously aware, the only thing i have to say is : 

God is God, weather you accept "him" or not, weather you believe in "him" or not. It's all about a matter of faith and belief, and nobody can convince the other to refute in what they say or believe.


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## LuteFrute (Dec 22, 2009)

lastRegret said:
			
		

> but even with that knowledge he isn't *KIND* enough to stop the wars or even try too, so that means one of two things. He *CAN'T* stop the wars because he doesn't have the power to stop them meaning he is NOT omnipotent. The second option is that he isn't kind enough to stop the wars meaning he isn't omnibenevolent.
> 
> hmmmm... well, the thing is, he WILL stop everything, eventually.
> 
> ...


i dont really believe in those options. here are my options:

1. belive in god and:
a) after you die, nothing happens; you go nowhere. kind of like a candle flame. 
b) also, you might be ressurected, and live in the world that you will rebuild. you'll get your own lawn.
c) if you didnt die, yay for you.

2. dont believe in god and:
a) after you die, nothing happens; you go nowhere. kind of like a candle flame. you will live your life and die.
b) also, you wont be ressurected. 
c) you wont be condemned to eternal torture, either; god loves us all equally.

3. [INSERT CHOICE HERE]

4 to infinity. [INSERT CHOICE HERE]


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## Panzer Tacticer (Dec 22, 2009)

I can relate to the 'odd experiences' thing, as it's happened to myself as well.

I still know there is no God as we like to imagine him though.

But as I said, I've experienced some interesting things in my time as well.

Been in the army twice actually. Both times on getting discharged I was greatly depressed as well. And both times it was as if someone was deliberately steered into my path to cheer me up.

I suffered depression in the 90s of a sort that is no small thing. I wanted to die. Thought my life was over. Thought I had in a sense died. Became quite emotionally dead in the process. NOTHING made me cry, I was immune to feeling. I felt nothing. And I don't mind saying, you won't like being emotionally dead inside. And then a friend of mine (very definite Christian buddy of mine) took me to his church while I was visiting over the weekend. I wasn't at the time what I am today. I still had something of a religious nature at the time. I basically said in a sort of silent prayer, if you want to say anything to me, say it now or shut up permanently. And I said show it in a way I won't fail to hear. And I started crying my eyes out. You have to understand, I was not capable of crying beforehand.

It's easy though to mistake these moments in our lives for a lot of things. But they also prove nothing.

It's more likely I finally broke the barrier of the illusion. Because following that visit, I finally broke the hold religion had on me, and I went back to being the scientist I always was.
Comical actually, as my buddy's wife is one of those total religious nutcase types. I've not had the chance since, but have often thought I should tell her, that thanks to her, I finally came to realize her religion is what it is, a crock. And I have her to thank 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 She saved me alright, but I didn't become a Jesus fan.

I woke up and smelled the coffee.


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## nitrostemp (Dec 22, 2009)

im okay with religion even if im just an atheist.
but there is a certain religion that goes about saying all kinds of things are the work of the devil, and you will go to hell if you do it.


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## ibrawl (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm not that religious although me and my family go to church. I look a god as a chill pill cause 
i gone to church and that's about the only time i see people that i dont know be nice to one another and
stay calm , cause you'll look like a keep going to a store and saying hello to some person that 
doesn't know you, then he gives you the look. That's how i see religion or god.


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## nutella (Dec 22, 2009)

I've been following this thread since it started and I have to admit, I expected to see a lot of retards (there's some but not many). But people like Magmorph, I have so much respect for. Why? Even though they don't have the same beliefs as me, their beliefs are infinitely stronger than mine. They know what they're talking about. Really, logic can only go so far and in the end (this will sound gay) you'll get to the point where you will need to rely on faith. I can see that you two simply just cannot do that because you're completely honest to yourself. You won't say you believe in something that you know doesn't make sense to you.

Most people in my school and even my best friends are full of shit. They think going to Church on Sundays is enough, people who only hear what they want to hear or worst of all, people who only pray because they don't want to go to Hell. That's not loving God, that living in fear. Me? I struggle. The only things keeping me coming back are personal experiences with religion. I can think of more things that confuse about my religion than things that I feel make sense. Is God perfect? Do we really have free will?

The one that really bugs me though is the question I asked my priest, who also has been studying philosophy for 13 years. "If God is all-knowing, why does he create some people with the personality traits and attributes that will ultimately lead them to Hell right from the beginning? If we knew we were going to Hell, why bother trying?" He simply replied, "Some things you only know when you get to Heaven." Well some may never get there.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 22, 2009)

Ugh, if I see any more philosophical crap here about an issue that's long dead I'm going to puke. And that's a hard feat to do; Guild McCommunist has a stomach of steel.

Let me resolve this:

There is a god. His name is p1ngpong.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 22, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> You were using it as a defense for god existing. I can infer you were referring to god.
> 
> While personal experience may have given you justification for believing in god, your personal experience or feeling he (why does he have a gender?) exists is not valid evidence for convincing others to believe in god. There is nothing miraculous about you only getting minor injuries from a car hitting you.
> No doubt I was implying that. It is what I felt and still feel about the event. But, it's not like I know 100% it was God guarding me. I only believe that to be true.
> ...


Of course that's a big question. 

I expected him to give an answer about free will though, personally.


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## nutella (Dec 22, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> There is a god. His name is p1ngpong.


Makes sense now.


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## Tanas (Dec 22, 2009)

The god of the Bible is EVIL... read what is written here then try and tell me otherwise.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 22, 2009)

Tanas said:
			
		

> GOD IS EVIL... read what is written here then try and tell me otherwise.



That's not the topic, dumb dumb. The topic is if God exists, not his merits. That's the Christian god. We're talking about God in general.


DERP.


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## Tanas (Dec 22, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

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An p1ngpong is not god dumb dumb, because that is dumb and has even less to do with the topic.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 22, 2009)

Tanas said:
			
		

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It's called lightening up the topic. It's better than going "BAH GOD IS EVIL LOOK HERE BOOO GOD BOOO!"

Anyway, even if I am "hypocritical" right here, let's stay on topic ladies.


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## Magmorph (Dec 23, 2009)

hamtotem said:
			
		

> The one that really bugs me though is the question I asked my priest, who also has been studying philosophy for 13 years. "If God is all-knowing, why does he create some people with the personality traits and attributes that will ultimately lead them to Hell right from the beginning? If we knew we were going to Hell, why bother trying?" He simply replied, "Some things you only know when you get to Heaven." Well some may never get there.


If God truly is all knowing, he would know who is going to hell and heaven before they are ever created. He would be creating people that he knows will go to hell.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 23, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

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Okay, movie parallel time. 

You guys ever see the Matrix? The first one. There's the scene where Morpheus is being pumped full of drugs by Mr. Smith and the other agents, and Smith goes through the process of creating the Matrix. He explains that the first Matrix was perfect. There was no sorrow. No plights. Everything was in order and perfect. But the people realized this was too perfect and the Matrix was a complete disaster. For God's (no pun intended) sake, they lost whole crops of humans! The horror! Humans, by nature, are an imperfect organism who strive to live in an imperfect and unbalanced world. Maybe God, if he does exist, didn't create humans, he was simply developed to manage them. Like the Matrix, except with less baby harvesting.

If you're interested, there's some big thing on the Matrix's parallels with the Christian Bible. It's quite interesting.


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## Kawo (Dec 23, 2009)

He get a little stingy when you touch his things but that apart a good guy and great worker.
Give him a week and he can do anything.
Seems like he in a Beatiful marathone and for that is not around so often.
And Lost is so complicated he must rewatch episode and that burns time.
This must be the most blasphemous post in my life, my ticket for hell is forged in diamond.


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## Zenith94 (Dec 23, 2009)

I don't belive in god, life after death, fate, or any of that stuff. It is illogical and there is no support to backup these beliefs. If anyone has any "proof" that any of these things exist, I bet I can prove you wrong.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 23, 2009)

Zenith94 said:
			
		

> I don't belive in god, life after death, fate, or any of that stuff. It is illogical and there is no support to backup these beliefs. If anyone has any "proof" that any of these things exist, I bet I can prove you wrong.



I'll play devil's advocate.

Everyone has a fate. The thing is that no one knows it. When you spill a soda, there was no way you could change that, now could you? You can't go back in the past and change that. This isn't Star Trek.

Unless you've died and come back, there's no proof of life after death or not. There's plenty of people who claim to see the "white light" if they were dead temporarily then brought back to life. You can't die and come back in a week to tell us.

I'm not a fan of attacking religious beliefs and saying they're "illogical". It's plain rude. Even if it does sound absurd, it's their beliefs. Why anyone would feel the need to attack something that isn't required to believe me is beyond me. I will personally punch any "atheist" in the face who wants to call Christianity illogical because that just means they're self absorbed, ignorant douchebags. 

And yeah, I'm an agnostic, so I'm no religious crusader here.


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## Zenith94 (Dec 23, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

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When I say fate, I mean a determined fate like mericoules and things like that. And there is no life after death because after you die, your dead! What else happens? Your "soul" gets transported to heaven or hell depending on wether you did "good" or "bad" during life and stay there for all of enternity! I don't care wether I am being rude or not, I will call people who belive in illogical things ignorant because they are.


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## Magmorph (Dec 23, 2009)

Christianity should be shown no more respect than it gives. It was what advocated slavery. It is against woman's rights. It is why gay people are not allowed to be married. I will not respect it any more than I would respect a sexist, slave trading, homophobic person.


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## Zenith94 (Dec 23, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Christianity should be shown no more respect than it gives. It was what advocated slavery. It is against woman's rights. It is why gay people are not allowed to be married. I will not respect it any more than I would respect a sexist, slave trading, homophobic person.



Exactly. People always just use religion as an excuse. Like saying gay people should not marry because its against a religion. Most of the time people don't truely belive or understand their religion they are only considered jewish or christan or whatever because their parents are.


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## Panzer Tacticer (Dec 23, 2009)

There's a dvd you can get, might even be able to download it. Stargaze Hubble's view of the Universe.
http://www.stargazedvd.com/purchase.htm

When you wish to consider our very earthly, very limited concept of god, as written in the very old series of books we collectively call the Bible, you have to understand, they couldn't see anything of what we can see today.

http://www.stargazedvd.com/purchase.htm

You will never understand the world as it really is, until you actually are given an opportunity to actually look at it.

I have seen all of creation, and most of our world's religious types have not.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 23, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> Christianity should be shown no more respect than it gives. It was what advocated slavery. It is against woman's rights. It is why gay people are not allowed to be married. I will not respect it any more than I would respect a sexist, slave trading, homophobic person.



An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, don't you think? By your concept here, the whole world would be split into bitter rivalries instead of doing logical arguments and diplomacy.

That's a pretty large umbrella you're giving Christianity. If you seriously think every sect of Christianity shares the same beliefs than you obviously are just an illogical, poorly driven anti-religious Leroy Jenkins. 

Quakers are real racist, homophobic, sexist bigots, y'know?

Christianity also promotes to "love thy neighbor". Christianity also donates to charity. Christianity does many good things in a community. You assume EVERY Christian hates all the aforementioned things. There's plenty of Christians who accept all of it, or may not be big on it but still respect it.

Christianity doesn't promote anything you say. The benders of it do. The original gospels of Christianity was very peaceful,  very mellow, very Jesus. There's nothing in the bible on slavery, homophobia, oppressing women. These misconceptions are basically from the Christianity "advocates" who enjoy playing sex degrees of separation with the Bible.

Do your research before saying "CHRISTIANS ARE A BUNCH OF RACIST SEXIST HOMOPHOBIC BIGOTS!" Branding them as bad people makes you just as bad as the terrible misconceptions you said.

Stop this anti-religious hatespeech. It leads to nowhere except proving that you're being a hypocrite. You accuse Christians of doing bad things that you're essentially doing by spewing hatred instead of agreeing to disagree.


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## Magmorph (Dec 23, 2009)

I was talking about the bible, not Christians in general. I will start quoting it if i must.

Edit:

The bible says women are less than men, that holding slaves is fine with god, and that gay people should be stoned to death.


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## Zenith94 (Dec 23, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

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They are spreading false hope to people is what they are spreading. Praying will not affect a single thing in a million years.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 23, 2009)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> I was talking about the bible, not Christians in general. I will start quoting it if i must.
> 
> Edit:
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> The bible says women are less than men, that holding slaves is fine with god, and that gay people should be stoned to death.



Old Testament or New Testament?


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## Zenith94 (Dec 23, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

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I am quite interested in reading these quotes myself.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 23, 2009)

Zenith94 said:
			
		

> They are spreading false hope to people is what they are spreading. Praying will not affect a single thing in a million years.



They? How big is that umbrella again?

Again, you're all assuming Christians are one big sect with no diversity. It's like saying Asia is China because China has a lot of people.

You're just being as ignorant as your supposed "Christians". There are plenty of good teachings the Bible, you just can't accept that there's good things in religion.

I feel disgraced by people of the likes of you to call myself a person without religion. You brand us as anti-religious zealots who are ignorant and crusading against religion. You seem to enjoy dancing around points of logic and instead insulting a religion that has been twisted by propagandists for centuries.


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## Talaria (Dec 23, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

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Old Testament. Yeah there's quite a few things in there of that.


I'm just confused about one thing, with the Big Bang where did the dense high energy, high pressure and high temperatures that made up the primeval atom come from? 'Cos Physics tells me energy cannot be destroyed nor created, so how did the components of the Big Bang come into existence? Also who created God, and who created the creator of God so forth? How do I know this is real? I think therefore I am? 

Science and Philosophy just produce more questions and answers very few.

So personally I like to think the world is Flat and that a Elephant with 63 arms is up there somewhere


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## Zenith94 (Dec 23, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

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Big band is a theroy, therefore it is just as true as religion.


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## Guild McCommunist (Dec 23, 2009)

Zenith94 said:
			
		

> I don't go around shootn' the whoop randomly to people about religion. I saw this thread and wanted to express my ideas.



I'm assuming that's what a Christian would say when you start bashing them over the head with your ideals, no?

If that came off rude, I'm sorry. I'm just not a fan of the anti-religion people. 

For now, I'm off. Gotta do my homework and mthr is roaming the castle


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## Magmorph (Dec 23, 2009)

As I have already posted before:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus does not say the old testament should not be followed. 

Men are the head of women:
"But there is one thing I want you to know: The head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

Slavery:
"  However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."

Homosexuality:
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination."

Sorry, I forgot that is was disobedient children that should be stoned to death, not gay people.

In case you don't beleive me:

"If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."


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## DozerGuy (Dec 23, 2009)

Your kidding about slavery right? Does it really say that in the bible? If it does im glad I havnt read that garbage.If god created all why would one race be above another including isrealites?


If your not laying with a woman to create a child then all sex can be seen as an abomination. Christ in true form is the head(mind, thought process) of righteous men not all men.


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## Tanas (Dec 23, 2009)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

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I think that its you who needs to do some research, have you any idea how ignorant that you have just shown yourself to be?


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## blitzer320 (Dec 23, 2009)

First Pokemon then santa now god what has the world come to  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Mods feel free to delete my comment


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## Sterling (Dec 23, 2009)

Hey Magmorph, can you list all the verses you have, that convinced you to hate what the bible says?

It would be much appreciated, as I would love to read all of them. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




EDIT: I kind of get the feeling that if these verses are quoted out of context they may take on a whole different meaning. So this I would like to investigate.


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## Magmorph (Dec 23, 2009)

There are too many verses to list.

You can find the context by typing the quote into Google if you are curious.


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## Tanas (Dec 23, 2009)

Sterl500 said:
			
		

> Hey Magmorph, can you list all the verses you have, that convinced you to hate what the bible says?
> 
> It would be much appreciated, as I would love to read all of them.
> 
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What makes me laugh is that most you people believe in something that is taken from a book that you practically know nothing about.
And you said early that you were not  ignorant.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




You might find some happy reading here


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## Sterling (Dec 23, 2009)

Tanas said:
			
		

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Before you go on saying that I am ignorant, think about it. Yes I am ignorant about the Bible, but that is only one aspect of Christianity. The average Christian will never know more than what they actively learn in church, or what they read from the Bible. Laugh all you want, because I can forgive the laughter. That is just part of what I gain from my religion. I gained a kindness not only pertaining to how I was brought up, but it is directly attributed to the moral standards that Christianity has sealed inside of me. My kindness is draw out by people like you (okay this is getting increasingly personal) your empty void is filled by people like me, who care enough to look past politics, religion, past deeds, etc. Yes I am ignorant about the book, but that is of small consequence, because I am not ignorant on the subject of believing in God, which has not been proven right or wrong. Just keep laughing, because you only make me stronger.

EDIT: One more quick thing, God was there before the book.

EDIT2: Wow you were right about it being "happy". I do have one thing to say, and that is we do have free will, but at the end we shall all die. Those who have been saved are already graced with eternal life, and those that forsook God are punished eternally. Satan (or Lucifer) forsook God and was cast down from the heavens. So those that forsake God share the same fate as Satan (an eternal life of misery in a lake of fire ruled by Satan). Not because God and Satan are the same entity, but because one tried to outdo the other and fell for it.


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## Magmorph (Dec 23, 2009)

Why do you believe that Christianity has given you morals that you would not otherwise have? You disregard much of what the bible says and pick out the parts that you find moral, reinforcing moral values you already had.


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## Uncle FEFL (Dec 23, 2009)

Tanas said:
			
		

> What makes me laugh is that most you people believe in something that is taken from a book that you practically know nothing about.
> And you said early that you were not  ignorant.
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I agree. Taking a Rousseauean(?) (and some other people from the Enlightenment) approach, people are already born righteous. It is society that screws things up.


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## Magmorph (Dec 23, 2009)

I would have to disagree that society screws things up. Our morals are entirely dependent on the society we live in. In one society pedophilia might be acceptable and in another it might be acceptable to stone people to death. The people living in these societies are not going to view the pedophilia or stoning as immoral because that is the way they were raised.


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## blitzer320 (Dec 23, 2009)

you guys should all take this thread as a lesson
1: you can never talk about religion with adults it wont resolve anything plus by now they have their own f'd up ideas about religion that aren't gonna change no matter what you say
2: this thread can get up to about 400 pages long and nothing will be resolved 
3: i motion that everyone move on to spending their time in more usefull ways such as taking care of your kids or hacking the PS3 something that we all can appreciate
4: This thread is very stupid and is just gonna end in a flame war so mods please end it now
5: nobody knows so you can't say the atheist is stupid because he doesn't believe in god because he only believes in hard core evidence
6: this countdown has gone on way longer than i expected
7: when is karaoke revolution Wii gonna get dumped its too whack for my $40
8: who else has built a Hackintosh if you haven't you should i love stealing from mac it'll teach you more about your pc
Choose any of the above topics to talk about other than religion theres just no point stop trying to convert each other


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## mthrnite (Dec 23, 2009)

Hi campers!
Well, it's about that time again. Time you close down yet another "religious debate" thread.
I hope you've enjoyed it, and maybe even learned something.

I'm going to pull a cheap shot and put my 2¢ in, here at the end, where no one can argue with me.

It doesn't really matter what religion you subscribe to, or none at all, in the end, you have a choice to either be a butthole, or not.

The secret to a happy life: Empathy, and loose shoes.

Happy Holidays!


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