# Faith Healing - Needs to be known



## Wizerzak (Apr 25, 2011)

You have most probably heard of Faith Healing and it's seemingly miraculous power to heal anybody of any illness or condition no matter how severe. About one hour ago there was a program called 'The Specialists - Miracles for Sale' featuring the well known mentalist Derren Brown. Click to watch on 4oD Their aim was to help expose faith healing for what it really is; fraud. By the end they had not managed to gain much of an audience and thus did not make a huge impact on people's views about the matter. I believe that more people should know about this and it should widely exposed.

Just to prove how dangerous this can be listen to the story at 33:02. It's terrible.

Have you ever experienced or been to one of these? What do you guys think on the matter?


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## Nathan Drake (Apr 25, 2011)

Faith healing is a known fraud. The only ones who actively believe it are very religious people. Most people have the common sense to know when they should get themselves or their family to an actual medical establishment though. The inability to recognize that faith healing doesn't work leads to nothing but unnecessary deaths and complications.

There have been many cases of children dying thanks to the miraculous power of faith healing.


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## DSGamer64 (Apr 26, 2011)

Faith healing is just more religious propaganda nonsense that they use to push their stupid ideals and beliefs.


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## zeromac (Apr 26, 2011)

Ah i love Darren Brown. He's one of my favourite mentalists

EDIT: You wouldn't happen to have another link would you? The video is not available in Australia :/


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## ShadowSoldier (Apr 26, 2011)

It's called faith dude. You might as well be saying their religion is a fraud too. It's all about faith. Just let them be.


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## GreatZimkogway (Apr 26, 2011)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> It's called faith dude. You might as well be saying their religion is a fraud too. It's all about faith. Just let them be.



I won't being an ass and speak my mind about the first part, but "Faith healing" is fraud, no matter what it is.  It's like saying "faith will heal my transmittable diseases".  I don't care if you think your "faith" will heal it, you put OTHERS at risk.


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## Nathan Drake (Apr 26, 2011)

shinkukage09 said:
			
		

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When your faith starts affecting the lives of others in fatal ways, you need to take a step back and review what you believe.


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## tatripp (Apr 26, 2011)

Surely everyone who says that faith healing isn't real isn't a Christian. Jesus healed a blind man and also reattached someone's ear. 

I'm not saying that everyone who claims to be a faith healer (especially if they charge money) is real, but I find it probable that true healing miracles can exist.

In the words of Gilbert Keith Chesterton, possibly the best author of the 20th century, "  A false ghost (or a faith healer in this case) disproves the reality of ghosts exactly as much as a forged banknote disproves the existence of the Bank of England..."


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## GreatZimkogway (Apr 26, 2011)

Nathan Drake said:
			
		

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Exactly this.  

Also, warning bells are going off in my head.  The temptation to reply to tatripp is too strong.  Should I leave this topic before I get yelled at?


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## twiztidsinz (Apr 26, 2011)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> It's called faith dude. You might as well be saying their religion is a fraud too. It's all about faith. Just let them be.


Not when people do that rather than get ACTUAL medical help...

And yes, religion is a fraud as well. Look at Scientology.
A failed pulp (fiction printed on cheap pulpy paper) writer was able to found a VERY successful religion.


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## tatripp (Apr 26, 2011)

Hey Shinkukake, before you yell at me. I want you to understand me
I think most of these "faith healers" are complete idiots and dirty thieves and horrible people. Anyone who does stuff like this for money should not be trusted and possibly fined or arrested or something. 
I'm just saying that it isn't impossible. I believe in miracles. I believe that they are very rare but that they can happen. that is all i'm saying.

I don't want you to get the wrong idea about me. I'm not some crazy guy who goes to church and pretends to speak in tongues or someone who shakes and falls over because the holy spirit. After knowing that, go ahead and criticize me all you want.


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## GreatZimkogway (Apr 26, 2011)

twiztidsinz said:
			
		

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I won't say anything more then this about religion: The US's current "main" religion came from a guy who had a dream.  Too many years ago.


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## notmeanymore (Apr 26, 2011)

I watched a deaf girl receive her hearing, first hand. No man shall convince me otherwise.

Those who accept payment for it, are frauds; that much is true.


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## omatic (Apr 26, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

> Surely everyone who says that faith healing isn't real isn't a Christian. Jesus healed a blind man and also reattached someone's ear.
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> I'm not saying that everyone who claims to be a faith healer (especially if they charge money) is real, but I find it probable that true healing miracles can exist.
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> In the words of Gilbert Keith Chesterton, possibly the best author of the 20th century, "  A false ghost (or a faith healer in this case) disproves the reality of ghosts exactly as much as a forged banknote disproves the existence of the Bank of England..."



Right, but said banknote doesn't prove the existence of the Bank of England either. I haven't seen or heard of any instances of miraculous healing backed by strong evidence, only unlikely yet positive outcomes in rare circumstances. Also consider that for every medical "miracle", there are many more cases that ended badly. Even something that is unlikely will happen eventually given enough chances to occur. 

Jesus is just lucky that there wasn't such a thing as video proof or advanced forensic investigation when he did these miracles, assuming they were ever done. It's not surprising that people are victimized by scams like faith healing when they'll believe seemingly impossible things happened while demanding relatively no proof to back it up.


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## ShadowSoldier (Apr 26, 2011)

twiztidsinz said:
			
		

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Oh I won't deny that religion is a joke (in my eyes), but it's still about having faith and believing. And if people can't really see WHY people are religious or believe in faith healing, than religious people have every right to insult Atheists and say that they flaunt their mouths everywhere.


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## Nathan Drake (Apr 26, 2011)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

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To be fair, I'm insulted every time a religious recruiter doesn't respect the fact that I've selected atheism instead of a religion.


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## Hells Malice (Apr 26, 2011)

The only time faith healing works is when you have a problem that can be beaten with mind over matter.
Like something you take placebos for. Y'know, like when your little brother is scared of the dark and you give him sugar pills saying they'll make him braver...it'll work if he believes it'll work.

It's a sham and a fraud in the same way placebos are. Too bad some people are too stupid to realize that and ruin lives because of it, while giving con-artists tons of cash.


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## notmeanymore (Apr 26, 2011)

I love how you all are arguing amongst yourselves, even though you all pretty much agree.

Guess I'll have to expound on my point some more to even catch anyone's notice.

Faith healing. Possible. To reiterate my earlier post's point, I witnessed the deaf hear, and 2 people with scoliosis stand up straight. On separate occasions. Hundreds of us(Christians, that is) could all gather together and pray over someone and nothing could happen, and that's just how it is. We all accept it as part of the divine plan, and move on. Other times, 10 of us pray over someone and they're healed right before our eyes. Also accepted as part of the plan. The faith healing most of you are talking about -- $2500 and a prayer later, you're healed -- is as bad, if not worse than the Roman Catholic Church selling indulgences.

Frauds exist in all cultures, all ways of life, everywhere. I'm sure there are people who abuse Islam or Buddhism for money too.



Spoiler



(And because I know someone's gonna bring this up, I'll just preempt you Everyone is how they are for a reason. Whether it be sin in your life(this is very, very rare. God isn't gonna give you cancer or the flu for lying to your grandma or something), natural happenstance, or a perfect plan to put you in just the right place at just the right time.



Okay. /rant. Lets see what you guys got.


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## GreatZimkogway (Apr 26, 2011)

I'd reply, but I ain't getting into a religious discussion at 3 in the morning.  That, and I'd probably just get a warning for it.  And enemies.  

All I'll say is that religion is a farse.  Nothing more then false hope.  You want false hope, fine.  That's your choice.  Don't affect my life with it.


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## CannonFoddr (Apr 26, 2011)

I don't consider myself religious, although I'm not an atheist either since I do have BELIEFS about things....(Don't flame me but - I believe that there's things/forces in the universe beyond our comprehension - the use of the word 'God' is just our way to try to understand it)

After reading some of these comments - IMHO, I also don't believe in faith healing & it's a dangerous thing to rely on.

If you have Cancer or something 'incurable', you shouldn't think that a Faith healer will somehow miraculously remove it from your body. You'll think you're cured - don't bother going to the Doctors & then find that the cancer (or whatever) has spread

- BUT the point made about 'illnesses' cured with Mind-over-matter is something I DO believe works. The bit about the placebo 'brave pill' can work - & if Faith Healers can 'trick' (sorry - can't think of a better word) you into curing you of your fear or 'illness' - then great.

As for 'Miracle cures' - I believe these CAN happen without Faith Healers or Professional medical. 
I've read many stories of people 'suddenly seeing/hearing' again - or that 'Cancer disappeared after my treatment was stopped' or 'I was in a Coma - they turned off the equipment & I woke up' etc.

That's what makes them 'Miracles'


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## twiztidsinz (Apr 26, 2011)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

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So believing in a lie is justification to insult those who don't?
I mean, I have nothing against those who are religious, but don't expect me to take you seriously.


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## Magmorph (Apr 26, 2011)

Why won't God heal amputees?


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## BlueStar (Apr 26, 2011)

TehSkull said:
			
		

> I watched a deaf girl receive her hearing, first hand. No man shall convince me otherwise.



Derren Brown showed exactly how the "making the deaf hear" fraud is carried out and replicated it on his show.  He did the same for 'crippled' people walking upright.  Did you actually follow it up and speak to the 'healed' people a week later to see if they were actually cured or did you just accept it when they said "Oh my God, I stood up straight!" or said "Jesus" when the guy told them "say Jesus"?  It's documented that the adrenaline rush created when you whip people up into a frenzy is a powerful painkiller.  That's how some guy a TV company got off the street was able to convince people he'd cured them of being crippled after just six months of coaching and with no belief in God or Jesus-given power.

The whole thing is a fraud and any Christian should be disgusted in people who abuse the name of their prophet in this manner, exploit the vulnerable and get rich off robbing and often killing desperate Christians.  Luckily there are Christian groups who fight very hard against these kind of scum.

As for the forged bank note analogy, that only works if no-one had ever been able to demonstrate that bank notes actually existed in a controlled scientific environment.

The poster above has a great point as well.  How come Jesus only heals conditions that are very conveniantly the ones where it is easy to fake it?  How come he never uses these faith healers to grow back someone's amputated leg?  Does jesus have something against amputees, where he'll cure thousands of cancer and blindness sufferers and not a single amputee?

Faith Healers are not Christians, they're atheists who make a living out of stealing from Christians.  If they believed in God they would be far too scared of his wrath for behaving like this in his name.


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## RoMee (Apr 26, 2011)

faith healing is as fake as the religion it's attached to.

just look at the kids who died because the parents wanted faith healing instead of real medicine


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## Panzer Tacticer (Apr 26, 2011)

Prove that faith healing is a fraud?

Hmm well considering religion is for the weak of mind, and only they believe in it and being of weak mind, they are prone to believing in anything and unlikely to be responsive to the facts, what precisely would be the point of anyone trying to convince them of their folly?

I have 'faith' that idiots will invariably be idiotic.

But hey, don't let me sway you eh. It's not like 50 years of experience is worth much eh. What can 30 years of science education possibly be worth to the conversation eh.

But think on this, next time you have the chance to speak with say a psychic (another interesting brand of bull), ask them why they don't routinely buy winning lottery tickets? Or do they enjoy being poor?

If faith is so great, why do so many religious people suffer horrible fates? Is it because their god is really just an unsympathetic prick at heart?
Yeah I will listen to you pray, but don't expect any help.


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## tatripp (Apr 26, 2011)

twiztidsinz said:
			
		

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Very ironic. If think that believing in a lie doesn't give someone justification to insult others, yet you insulted someone because you believe in a lie.

You say religion is a fraud because one religion is. Now that is some top notch logic. Surely all religions are wrong, except for possibly one of them. It is very obvious that Atheism is as false as Scientology. Just read St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Anselm's proofs for the existence of God.


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## BlueStar (Apr 26, 2011)

If you think there's actual proof of God then you have no faith.  You don't need faith in something that has been proven.  Therefore you can't have faith in God, which kind of puts you in a bit of a pickle as a mamber of a religion which requires that faith.

However, it's funny you mention both Anselm and Aquinas, when the latter spent much of his time completely rejecting the argument made by he former.


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## tatripp (Apr 26, 2011)

Panzer Tacticer said:
			
		

> Prove that faith healing is a fraud?
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> Hmm well considering religion is for the weak of mind, and only they believe in it and being of weak mind, they are prone to believing in anything and unlikely to be responsive to the facts, what precisely would be the point of anyone trying to convince them of their folly?
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You try to prove that faith healing is a fraud by claiming that is a fact that all religious people have a weak mind. That is absolutely brilliant. Especially considering many of the most intelligent people ever have been religious scientists. ie Sir Isacc Newton who founded Physics and Gregor Mendell (a catholic monk) who founded genetics. It seems that the only intelligent thing you said is that your 50 years of experience isn't worth much. Then to prove how ignorant you are on the matter, you ask a basic question that can be answered by anyone of which the answer is "free will."


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## The Catboy (Apr 26, 2011)

Honestly I feel as though faith healing can't heal anything like cancer or anything, but I do feel as though it does have some power on a psychological level for helping people through their problems, but not curing them.


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## BlueStar (Apr 26, 2011)

A Gay Little Catboy said:
			
		

> Honestly I feel as though faith healing can't heal anything like cancer or anything, but I do feel as though it does have some power on a psychological level for helping people through their problems, but not curing them.



Which is all very good, unless the healer takes their money (And some of them claim to be able to solve debt problems if you send them money, you can imagien how that ends for people) or tell them to throw away their medication.  Or, when they ask why they haven't been healed, tell them it's because of their 'secret sin' which makes them blame themselves and often leads to suicide.  'Faith healers' are some of the most evil people on the planet, in my opinion.


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## Rogue_Syst3m (Apr 26, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

> Surely everyone who says that faith healing isn't real isn't a Christian. Jesus healed a blind man and also reattached someone's ear.
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> I'm not saying that everyone who claims to be a faith healer (especially if they charge money) is real, but I find it probable that true healing miracles can exist.
> 
> In the words of Gilbert Keith Chesterton, possibly the best author of the 20th century, "  A false ghost (or a faith healer in this case) disproves the reality of ghosts exactly as much as a forged banknote disproves the existence of the Bank of England..."




prove it....


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## The Catboy (Apr 26, 2011)

BlueStar said:
			
		

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True, that does happen, but I was just talking about someone having some kinda faith to lean on to help them feel better, doesn't mean contacting some guy to help them or anything like that. Just praying could help someone feel better on some level, doesn't mean it will cure them, just means they _feel_ better.


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## twiztidsinz (Apr 26, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

> Very ironic. If think that believing in a lie doesn't give someone justification to insult others, yet you insulted someone because you believe in a lie.
> 
> You say religion is a fraud because one religion is. Now that is some top notch logic. Surely all religions are wrong, except for possibly one of them. It is very obvious that Atheism is as false as Scientology. Just read St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Anselm's proofs for the existence of God.Give me one shred of proof, one little bit of evidence that a god exists. Any god.
> The problem with faith is, to believe in it you must blindly trust it.
> ...


This would be true... if it wasn't wrong.
You can prove that the Bank of England exists. You can prove they have real bank notes. You can even prove a counterfeit bank note is fake.
You cannot prove ghosts exist, or else we'd have undisputed evidence of them by now -- what with all the ghost hunter bullshit TV shows.

And this is coming from someone who got freaked the hell out by a 'ghost'.
A friend and I were riding bikes when we were in the 4th grade, and we stopped on the side of a hill in which an old, abandoned nursing home was built. One of us commented about the time, so we jokingly turned up to the old broken clock on the side of the building and we both saw a white figure in the window. We turned to eachother, then back to the window and it was gone. We both saw it.

In reality it was most likely the wind blowing something across the window or a worker cleaning up the place (the building was abandoned, but the property had another nursing home building), or even some squatter who was living there or any number of a HUNDRED possibilities that could be rationally explained. But when you're 10/11 years old, and don't know any better, it's a spooky ghost.


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## Wizerzak (Apr 26, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

> You try to prove that faith healing is a fraud by claiming that is a fact that all religious people have a weak mind. That is absolutely brilliant. Especially considering many of the most intelligent people ever have been religious scientists. ie Sir Isacc Newton who founded Physics and Gregor Mendell (a catholic monk) who founded genetics. It seems that the only intelligent thing you said is that your 50 years of experience isn't worth much. Then to prove how ignorant you are on the matter, you ask a basic question that can be answered by anyone of which the answer is "free will."



You spelled Isaac wrong.

Anyway can we get more back onto the topic of faith healing? General religious debates are far too common. By the way, does the video work in USA? If not it's now been uploaded on Youtube here (not embeddable): Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale


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## notmeanymore (Apr 26, 2011)

BlueStar said:
			
		

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:| I'll admit that I don't have your demanded level of proof for the scoliosis bits. The deaf girl was healed, and then she proceeded to call her mom to hear her voice for the first time.

The next morning, they had her up on stage singing along with the worship. You really can't fake the level of tone deafness she had. I know I couldn't if I tried.

Keep in mind, though, this was just a unique happening, not an experience everyone paid to see.


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## Sterling (Apr 26, 2011)

Here is my two cents. Faith healing as a practice is a definite sham. Miracles aren't something that happens on command. Miracles are miracles because they aren't expected. Also, just because you don't believe doesn't give you the right to tell others they're wrong, and that's also vice versa for the believers. It's a choice for someone to put faith forward, and it also takes more guts to do so. Especially with the way society has been degrading. I predict 10 years from now, people of faith will be in the minority.


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## injected11 (Apr 26, 2011)

Wizerzak said:
			
		

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Neither that link or the one in the first post are working for me in the USA.


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## Wizerzak (Apr 26, 2011)

What about SeeSaw? Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale - SeeSaw


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## injected11 (Apr 26, 2011)

Wizerzak said:
			
		

> What about SeeSaw? Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale - SeeSaw


Says need to be located in the UK to view.


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## Wizerzak (Apr 26, 2011)

grrr.... I guess your only options are to either wait for someone else to upload it on youtube or use a proxy.


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## Canonbeat234 (Apr 27, 2011)

Since one's faith is proven wrong, by the accusation of a non-believer?! Remember, Jesus did it but we crucified him because we couldn't find fault! I say a faith is never proven wrong since you have to believe it to understand its existence.


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## Vidboy10 (Apr 27, 2011)

Faith healing makes religion look bad in my honest opinion.


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## Tonitonichopchop (Apr 27, 2011)

Reading this thread is like reading the same posts over and over again. We know faith healing with monetary incentive is fake/wrong, we know that some of you are atheists and don't like religion, and we know there are instances of faith healing appearing to work. We don't need to reiterate ourselves over and over folks.

Edit: Also, is there any atheist who isn't a total dick about religion?


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## Vidboy10 (Apr 27, 2011)

Tonitonichopchop said:
			
		

> Edit: Also, is there any atheist who isn't a total dick about religion?


I'm atheist and I'm not a dick.
The only reason why I'm against religion is that it starts conflicts and arguements (just like now).


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## tatripp (Apr 27, 2011)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> If you think there's actual proof of God then you have no faith.  You don't need faith in something that has been proven.  Therefore you can't have faith in God, which kind of puts you in a bit of a pickle as a mamber of a religion which requires that faith.
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> However, it's funny you mention both Anselm and Aquinas, when the latter spent much of his time completely rejecting the argument made by he former.



That is a good point. St. Thomas didn't think that Anselm's argument was valid. I'm no logician but i do think Anselm's is valid as well as Aquinas's. Maybe Aquinas is right that you have to look out into the world to prove God. I don't really know. I just know that i like Aquinas's cosmological arguments better than ontological arguments or arguments based on design.


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## tatripp (Apr 27, 2011)

Canonbeat234 said:
			
		

> Since one's faith is proven wrong, by the accusation of a non-believer?! Remember, Jesus did it but we crucified him because we couldn't find fault! I say a faith is never proven wrong since you have to believe it to understand its existence.



A faith can be proven wrong if it is contradicting. just like the scotch-korean man on the starburst commercials.


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## nando (Apr 27, 2011)

there is nothing wrong with having faith. i have faith god doesn't exist.


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## Mesiskope (Apr 27, 2011)

I know this will be on Penn & Tellers Bullshit!


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## tatripp (Apr 27, 2011)

twiztidsinz said:
			
		

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your ghost story is pretty funny. But i disagree with you. Chesterton isn't wrong. He only says that a false ghost doesn't disprove a real ghost. Let's say you did see a real ghost. You will never think you see a real ghost because you will always write it off as something like the wind or your imagination. 
Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in ghosts. I'm just using the example. so a false faith healing doesn't disprove a real one. It doesn't prove it either. I'm not saying that i can prove that they exist, but only that it is a possibility that they exist. I think faith healers are dirty thieves mostly, but who know... maybe there are some real ones.


About the proof. I can't say much about it because i can never find a good form of the argument online but they are really interesting. Most of Aquinas's arguments rely on the fact that infinite regression of anything isn't possible. To be an atheist is to accept the idea of infinite regression. If you want to get the best version of the argument you shoulud read Aquinas himself. I don't even know where he wrote it... maybe in the Suma Theologica.
I will try to do two arguments but i will certainly butcher it
ARGUMENT of CONTINGENCY and NECESSITY 
1) things are either necessary or contingent (reliant on something else to be created)
2) some things are contingent because they came into existence (ie a person)
3) there cannot be an infinite chain of contingent things because something couldn't bring itself into existence
4) therefore there must be a necessary thing to start of the chain of contingent things
5) We call this necessary thing God

ARGUMENT OF MOVEMENT/CHANGE
1) things move
2) things cannot cause themselves to move
3) in order for something to move, it must be put into motion by something else (a stack of books cannot fall over unless something pushes it)
4) there cannot be an infinite chain of movements
5) something must have caused movement
6) this cause of movement is the unmoved mover 
7) the unmoved mover is who i call God

this isn't Aquinas's argument but it is still interesting. 
1) time is linear
2) Moments in time exist (ie seconds, minutes, hours, etc)
3) there cannot have been infinite moments of time in the past because we wouldn't be able to be in our current moment
4) therefore time has a starting point.


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## BlueStar (Apr 27, 2011)

But aren't these just variations on "I/we can't comprehend x, therefore, God did it!"  How is "I can't understand how time can pass in a period of infinite time, so God must have started off time" and different from "I can't understand how the sun moves through the sky, therefore the Sun God must be pulling it on an invisible chariot"? 

And is just labelling God "necessary" enough to sweep under the carpet the fact that most arguments start with "Everything must have a creator/something to start it moving/a start part in time" and then end with a cough and "Um, except God, he didn't need a creator he was always there.  Even before time, because obviously time's not infinite.  So what happened before time didn't count."


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## Tonitonichopchop (Apr 27, 2011)

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Well, to most atheist (I don't know if you're like this), religion is like a freaking organization that causes wars and all this other bullshit nonsense. I won't deny the fact that war has been waged in the name of religion, but there are also lots of good things churches and their people do. And I'm not even religious. I'm an atheist, but I at least have enough tact not to hate on something just because everyone else does. It's quite immature.


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## Pyrmon (Apr 27, 2011)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> But aren't these just variations on "I/we can't comprehend x, therefore, God did it!"  How is "I can't understand how time can pass in a period of infinite time, so God must have started off time" and different from "I can't understand how the sun moves through the sky, therefore the Sun God must be pulling it on an invisible chariot"?
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> And is just labelling God "necessary" enough to sweep under the carpet the fact that most arguments start with "Everything must have a creator/something to start it moving/a start part in time" and then end with a cough and "Um, except God, he didn't need a creator he was always there.  Even before time, because obviously time's not infinite.  So what happened before time didn't count."


I agree, you can't really prove or disprove God that way because of it's very essence. God would essentially be a being living outside our Universe, so we can't prove or disprove it. The only way to do that would be to find a religious scripture with no contradictions that says things that would be impossible for the people of that time to know about. And that doesn't say to kill each other. That would help.


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## BlueStar (Apr 27, 2011)

Even if you believe there's a way to prove the universe had a creator, it doesn't help prove the important question of a personal God, which is what matters to the religious.  Even if you can convince yourself that _something_ must have set the rules of physics and time in motion, that could just be an unfeeling ball of energy that popped out of existence straight after, leaving the rest to the newly created science.  It doesn't go anywhere towards proving there is a personal God who watches and judges every little being on one particular tiny speck of space dust and intervenes in who dies of cancer and which high school football team wins the championship.


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## Pyrmon (Apr 27, 2011)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> Even if you believe there's a way to prove the universe had a creator, it doesn't help prove the important question of a personal God, which is what matters to the religious.  Even if you can convince yourself that _something_ must have set the rules of physics and time in motion, that could just be an unfeeling ball of energy that popped out of existence straight after, leaving the rest to the newly created science.  It doesn't go anywhere towards proving there is a personal God who watches and judges every little being on one particular tiny speck of space dust and intervenes in who dies of cancer and which high school football team wins the championship.


I prefer to think of God as a immensely powerful being who calculated exactly what happened at the level of the particles and thus set a chain reaction leading to everything that's happening right now.


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## DSGamer64 (Apr 27, 2011)

ShadowSoldier said:
			
		

> It's called faith dude. You might as well be saying their religion is a fraud too. It's all about faith. Just let them be.


Religion as a whole is a fraud and has been for hundreds of years. It's all just theoretical nonsense that can't be proven by anyone. None of it is real, you can't prove that people have a change of heart and mind over something just because of religion. Faith healing is one of the biggest religious scams next to Evangelism and Catholicism, they do it to make money and try to trick people into believing they were cured of an illness when in actuality they just accepted that they have a problem and want to stop it.

In the wise words of Neil Peart "I don't have faith in faith, I don't believe in belief, but you can call me faithless".


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## tatripp (Apr 27, 2011)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> Even if you believe there's a way to prove the universe had a creator, it doesn't help prove the important question of a personal God, which is what matters to the religious.  Even if you can convince yourself that _something_ must have set the rules of physics and time in motion, that could just be an unfeeling ball of energy that popped out of existence straight after, leaving the rest to the newly created science.  It doesn't go anywhere towards proving there is a personal God who watches and judges every little being on one particular tiny speck of space dust and intervenes in who dies of cancer and which high school football team wins the championship.



It actually does point in that direction. a ball of energy can't create itself. This doesn't prove that there is some big bearded man in heaven but it does prove that there is an unmoved mover.


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## _Chaz_ (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm actually laughing out loud at how fail this thread is.

What I'm fairly certain was a troll topic (a good one too, kudos) has now been bogged down with religious debate.


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## tatripp (Apr 27, 2011)

DSGamer64 said:
			
		

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well if religion is nonsense because it can't be proven by anyone then nearly everything is nonsense including gravity, movement, science, apples, colors, the sun, all of your senses, etc. Rene Descartes proved that the only thing that can be truly proven is the mind; "I think; therefore I am." He also believed in God because of the ontological argument. Everything else can be a dream so nothing can be proven. Even scientists must have faith.


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## Tonitonichopchop (Apr 27, 2011)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> I'm actually laughing out loud at how fail this thread is.
> 
> What I'm fairly certain was a troll topic (a good one too, kudos) has now been bogged down with religious debate.



Your post is the most fail in this thread. We're debating the legitimacy of Faith Healing, so obviously it goes hand in hand with the validity of religion in general. You can't play a video game without a console, much like you can't discuss an aspect of religion without discussing religion. 

I do agree with you on the point that the original post likely is troll bait. But as far as I've seen, everyone is being pretty tame for the most part.


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## BlueStar (Apr 27, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

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It doesn't prove anything in a scientific sense, but then I guess you knew that from posting philosophical, rather than scientific 'proof'.  This kind of proof based on "XXXX is DEFINITELY impossible so God MUST exist!" isn't a very compelling argument from a religion that asserts that God can in fact do the impossible.

Are we really saying a ball of energy can't create itself, or can always have been, but Biblegod can?

You may think arguments like those from Aquinas are irrefutable, but many people consider them worse than bollocks - Argument from Ignorance.

[youtube]U3yKxvW9yNA[/youtube]


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## nando (Apr 27, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

> well if religion is nonsense because it can't be proven by anyone then nearly everything is nonsense including gravity, movement, science, apples, colors, the sun, all of your senses, etc. Rene Descartes proved that the only thing that can be truly proven is the mind; "I think; therefore I am." He also believed in God because of the ontological argument. Everything else can be a dream so nothing can be proven. Even scientists must have faith.




did he really prove that? because it sounds like philosophical dribble to me not proof

proving that nothing can be proven doesn't even make sense


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## BlueStar (Apr 27, 2011)

You have scientific theories, which can be backed by evidence which can be tested through scientific method.  They always remain a theory, because in science new evidence is always used to change view points.  Philsophical questions like "Why are we here" and "Is there a God" cannot be tested by scientific methods.  But that doesn't matter, because religous people dont' have a "theory" that God exists, they must _know_/  And if evidence comes out to the contary, you must change the evidence, not the conclusion.  You don't have the option to rethink it in most religions.


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## DSGamer64 (Apr 27, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

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Most scientists don't believe in God, because religion preaches Creationism and have no ways of disproving Evolution which science supports.


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## Mesiskope (Apr 27, 2011)

this should clear things up.
watch all parts if you wish
[youtube]Pk0K1zgCDtE[/youtube]
[youtube]8G4zyBmgaeA[/youtube]
[youtube]gvPkHpE-oks[/youtube]


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## Wizerzak (Apr 27, 2011)

Tonitonichopchop said:
			
		

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Damn, re-reading my op it does sound like troll bait a bit. I honestly wasn't, I genuinely wanted to raise awareness/people's views on the subject of faith healing. 

I am atheist and lol at my arguments with religious people: (RP = religious person)

Me: God doesn't exist, you cannot prove it.
RP: What started everything off then? Something must have come before, that is God.
Me: But where did God come from?
RP: He's always been there. _(Most lame argument ever if you ask me_
Me: That's impossible. The big bang started everything.
RP: But what came before the big bang? Something must have come before, that is God.
Me: Nope. There was nothing.
RP: But what came before the nothingness?
Me: *grinning*  *troll face* It was always there.


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## _Chaz_ (Apr 27, 2011)

Tonitonichopchop said:
			
		

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I could easily discuss faith without even touching religion.


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## DigitalDeviant (Apr 27, 2011)

Panzer Tacticer said:
			
		

> Prove that faith healing is a fraud?
> 
> Hmm well considering religion is for the weak of mind, and only they believe in it and being of weak mind, they are prone to believing in anything and unlikely to be responsive to the facts, what precisely would be the point of anyone trying to convince them of their folly?
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okay way off topic but Panzer Tacticer, Your back? I though you said you left for good?

Also people lets realize that there are people out there ready and able to take advantage of ones faith, lets use our reasoning to the best extent possible.


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## bnwchbammer (Apr 27, 2011)

No forum or discussion with people you don't personally know should never discuss religion.
I have reasons for not believing in faith having any power in healing.
I believe in the human capability to cling to life if someone truly wants to live, and sure, in some cases faith can be the reason for living, or believing they're going to live, but there's a point where it's absolute bullshit.
Everybody has their own reasons for believing in something, and I'm not here to dispute that exactly, but come now, there is a difference between being religious and being a fool.
(Not gonna argue the line between that though since I suppose I could go either way on that)


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## tatripp (Apr 28, 2011)

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I'm sorry. the freakin video refuses to load for me right now, but i'll try to watch it later. anyways i don't know what religion you are referring to, but orthodox christians do not think that God can do the impossible, because something that is impossible cannot be done. IE God cannot create a burrito so big that he cannot eat it. I wasn't really clear in my last post but the point i was trying to make is that St. Thomas does prove that there is an unmoved mover and that a necessary entity must exist (and have created time). Once again, I will try to watch that video later and see if it says anything that i can respond to.


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## Nathan Drake (Apr 28, 2011)

Time is a human made management tool. Nobody created time except ourselves. Calendars were designed by ancient civilizations such as the Mayans and slightly later civilizations such as the Romans created modern time. Sun dials were created to keep track of the day, and eventually a 24 hour system was formed.

We now use this 24 hour system to keep track of what we consider to be days with years based on seasonal rotation. It's really a scientific thing, no religious entity required to see where the concept of time came from.

If that's not necessarily what you meant by something having to have created time, please correct me.


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## Pyrmon (Apr 28, 2011)

Nathan Drake said:
			
		

> Time is a human made management tool. Nobody created time except ourselves. Calendars were designed by ancient civilizations such as the Mayans and slightly later civilizations such as the Romans created modern time. Sun dials were created to keep track of the day, and eventually a 24 hour system was formed.
> 
> We now use this 24 hour system to keep track of what we consider to be days with years based on seasonal rotation. It's really a scientific thing, no religious entity required to see where the concept of time came from.
> 
> If that's not necessarily what you meant by something having to have created time, please correct me.


You haven't had many physics classes, aye?


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## Nathan Drake (Apr 28, 2011)

pyrmon24 said:
			
		

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Yeah, I know, astrology and such, rotation of the planets, etc. Lots goes into what we know today as time. It's annoying. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Also, I just thought of what they meant as the creation of "time." All that is known with the Big Bang Theory is that there was a large explosion that may or may not have created what we know as the universe. There obviously wasn't nothing there before, or that couldn't have happened. It is beyond more plausible than what any religion has ever presented though. Whether that was the beginning of time is hard to say, but I have heard nothing else even remotely realistic.


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## tatripp (Apr 28, 2011)

Mesiskope said:
			
		

> this should clear things up.
> watch all parts if you wish
> [youtube]Pk0K1zgCDtE[/youtube]
> [youtube]8G4zyBmgaeA[/youtube]
> [youtube]gvPkHpE-oks[/youtube]



That didn't really add anything to the argument. Once again i would like to say "a false ghost disproves a real ghost like a forged bank note disproves the bank of england."
I only watched two of the videos but i would like to see them cut off an enemy's ear and reattach it. also i wouuld like to see them come back from the dead, or maybe in their case they could just stay dead. Does it really take a doctor to tell if someone has died or a scientist to tell that someone is walking in the middle of a lake? Think about it, the pharisees wanted nothing more than to see Jesus fail and be a fraud, yet they never denied any of his miracles, but said they were the work of the devil instead. Would a poor carpenter be able to have the ability to learn all of these magic tricks (including many that haven't been done today)?


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## Nathan Drake (Apr 28, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

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I despise that quote, as it uses something so unrelated, I can't take it seriously. I can show you a real bank note, hell, I can show you many banks. I can't show you a real ghost though. I can not prove that exists. The quote is very shortsighted.

Walking in the middle of the lake is only seen done by a handful today, and though nobody can explain how it happens, it is obviously possible without any supernatural power. Of course it doesn't take a doctor to prove a person's death, but it is not only the most ideal way to get proof from a trained professional. Anybody who knows the practices can prove a death, and in many cases, it is very obvious. Jesus' supposed miracles also can not be proven. Was he a real person? Yeah, most likely. Many other characters of the Bible may have been real too. There is absolutely zero proof as to what they did other than a book that is nothing but fiction to me.

Any "magic tricks" you may be referring to may have just been lost skills. Certain things aren't retained over time due to them just not being needed anymore.


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## ProtoKun7 (Apr 28, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

> Surely everyone who says that faith healing isn't real isn't a Christian. Jesus healed a blind man and also reattached someone's ear.


Healing back then did happen. It doesn't happen anymore. Anything claiming to be faith healing now is either smoke and mirrors or demonic trickery.

Just saying...

*leaves*


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## Panzer Tacticer (Apr 28, 2011)

Rather than respond to the reply that responded to me (pointless waste of time really), it should be said, you can be incredibly intelligent and not very smart.

If possessing a phd was foolproof, we wouldn't need malpractice law would we?

It is not relevant how much you have learned, if you refuse to use it.

I have learned a great deal, I have no problem using it.

You might be shocked to know I am officially an Aaronic priest. Hey it's official so I can say it. I even baptised my wife personally.

But it came to pass that I couldn't continue to ignore a lot of things that are just not so complicated.

I woke up, I decided time to be as smart as I am intelligent.

Thus parading before me names of the past, accomplishes nothing. They made their choices.

There is no God. But as long as you have no plans to kill me over my saying that, I couldn't care less if you have faith in him or not.

I prefer commonsense over faith.


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## junkerde (Apr 28, 2011)

there is one song that reminds me of this hoax:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmWroc4VarY[/youtube]

The lyrics my friends....BOW TO LEPER MESSIAH!!!!


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## Tanas (Apr 29, 2011)

ProtoKun7 said:
			
		

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We can always rely on you for the LOLS


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## tatripp (Apr 29, 2011)

nando said:
			
		

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I don't know what evidence you are talking about. First off the scientific method was mainly started by the Catholic Church because the church knows how important it is. the subject of genetics was started by Gregor Mendel (a catholic monk).  people worship the scientific method and think it is infallible and I admit it is great at what it does, but it can't truly prove anything. It can only say that things generally happen a certain way. No science could possibly disprove God. People argue that evolution disproves God, but it really doesn't. Many people believe in theistic evolution. There is no need to change any evidence for any reason because it won't make a difference (even if men came from monkeys). Good people who believe in God will value truth even if it means that they are wrong. So if i am wrong, i would like to know it, but science cannot prove very much because it relies on inductive reasoning. God can be proven through deductive reasoning, but science will never have a chance at proving the existence of God.


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## nando (Apr 29, 2011)

tatripp said:
			
		

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the miracles of christ were "documented" or i would say, authored hundreds of years after jesus died.


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## cwstjdenobs (Apr 29, 2011)

Still watching but I think he could have pointed out that he was targeting the Christian faith healers because they happen to have the largest media presence, and almost certainly make the most money, of any of the others, so going for these would (hopefully) make the biggest impact. The spiritualists ones probably a close second in the west. But I know for a fact that these sort of scams are perpetrated by people who target other faiths. I receive leaflets on the doormat all the time.

And while I'll admit having that strong religious faith seems make people more susceptible to this shit, Atheists and the religious who claim they'd never fall for this will fall for pseudo-scientific snake oil. It's still taking advantage of faith. You have faith in that because you know you can't know everything and trust the source of the information you have.

So these people are taking advantage of a humans basic sense of trust within a community, religion seems to give the perfect hunting ground for suckers but not the only one. Governments need to stop being scared of offending the people they  should be protecting from these scam artists. Just make it clear they aren't attacking any particular faith stance.

But back onto the off-topicness:-



			
				BlueStar said:
			
		

> Faith Healers are not Christians, they're atheists who make a living out of stealing from Christians.  If they believed in God they would be far too scared of his wrath for behaving like this in his name.
> 
> I'd say without faith, not Atheists. Really choosing to identify as an Atheist is quite different to not having a belief.
> 
> QUOTE(Tonitonichopchop @ Apr 27 2011, 12:56 PM) Well, to most atheist (I don't know if you're like this), religion is like a freaking organization that causes wars and all this other bullshit nonsense. I won't deny the fact that war has been waged in the name of religion, but there are also lots of good things churches and their people do. And I'm not even religious. I'm an atheist, but I at least have enough tact not to hate on something just because everyone else does. It's quite immature.



TBH I think both sides of the argument feel like they have to fight so strongly not because it actually bothers them others don't agree with them, but because of the very organised and vocal minorities of extremists on both sides are making a very good job of making it look like you can't have both and there must be a war.


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