# Michigan anti-bullying law allows bullying of gay students



## smile72 (Nov 5, 2011)

> A new anti-bullying law passed by the Michigan Senate this week could be harmful to gay, lesbian or transgender students, advocates say.
> It's so weak that even the family of the bullying victim for whom the bill is named is "ashamed" of it, the Detroit News reported.
> "Matt's Safe School Law", named for 14-year-old Matt Epling who committed suicide in 2008 after being bullied by his classmates, includes a provision specifically noting that the law doesn't prohibit expression of religious or moral viewpoints.
> "I'm ashamed of this law," Matt's father, Kevin Epling, said in a video posted on YouTube. "They have tarnished the person whom it is named after. It does not reflect our beliefs nor Matt's beliefs."
> ...



Source:NY Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/michigan-anti-bullying-law-bullying-gay-students-activists-article-1.972241?localLinksEnabled=false

Opinions???????


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## omgpwn666 (Nov 5, 2011)

Well, that's annoying...


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## TrapperKeeperX (Nov 5, 2011)

Oh my god this is just the most offensive thing I ever heard who ever came up with this decision is the biggest bigoted dipshit named Rick Jones! If people do commit suicide because they say it's ok to bully them I blame them for their suicide and I will tell them they're nothing more than murderers and they should all die they would be better if they were dead. People like them are just Inferior Human Beings they deserve to die. "As passed today, bullying kids is OK if a student, parent, teacher or school employee can come up with a moral or religious reason for doing it." This quote pisses me off the most. A Bible thumping ass hole would say this and you know what god doesn't exist Why should they believe in a magic talking Dead Guy/Zombie/Dracula/Vampire or whatever it is that say this stuff out of religious reasons Religion just became stupider than usual those who use religion for hatred are all retards that believe in a dead guy who created the world 2011 Years ago and still think it's the 1950's it's 2011 get with the time already it's not 1950 only stupid people think it's the 1950's with their ass backward ways.


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## smile72 (Nov 5, 2011)

I didn't expect this much emotion. But maybe it's because I'm very tired.


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## Hyro-Sama (Nov 5, 2011)

It's about time Americans start throwing bibles at each other. Hell yeah.


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## ShadowNeko003 (Nov 5, 2011)

How in the world did this law even pass?!  Obviously, these law makers in Michigan need to get their head examine!


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## smile72 (Nov 5, 2011)

No the intent of the law isn't bad. It's that damn line that tries to exempt homophobic christian teachers and students from pretty much being punished.


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## s4mid4re (Nov 5, 2011)

Yes, the intent to decrease bullying is good, but it explicitly gives a way to get away with it. If the case has something to do with immorality or goes against a certain religion, you are totally vulnerable against bullying. Additionally, the target for bullying will be narrowed down to certain groups, which is _discrimination_ against them.

The law doesn't explain which religions in general it applies to (or to be exact, it can't because if it includes one, it has to include all of them...). This brings up a problem that certain religions have different perspectives on morality and constraints. Say, if there's one religion in which certain groups of people are 'impure' and should be eliminated, that certain group of people will legally be eligible to be targeted, and bullies can come up with bs to easily get away with it.

Another problem is morality in general. Since morality is skewed by religion and other factors, the rights and wrongs of people differ largely. There's no way to evaluate if a moral is valid or invalid, unless it's common sense.


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## BlueStar (Nov 5, 2011)

The Flying Spaghetti Monster just told me in the latest edition of His Word that Christians are immoral, disease spreading, wicked, sinful, the cause of the collapse of society and shouldn't be allowed to practise their perverse lifestyle (especially if they're one of those flamboyant Christians that make it really obvious.) He also said it was my religious duty to inform them of these facts on a daily basis to save them and others from their evil ways, via anti-Christian songs, name calling, leaflets, excluding them from activities and daubing anti-Christian/pro-fsm graffiti on their locker.

But that's ok, because that's all protected speech in school now, yeah?


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## AlanJohn (Nov 5, 2011)

I don't think it could be considered an "*anti* - bullying law" if it allows bullying.


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## Hells Malice (Nov 5, 2011)

They should just tl;dr the bill, "You can't bully, unless you have a reason!"

Which is just...pure genius. Michigan has some geniuses in charge, it does.


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## Chikaku-chan (Nov 5, 2011)

smile72 said:


> I didn't expect this much emotion. But maybe it's because I'm very tired.



Of course there would be, its a very tender subject.
Since I am infact Gay myself this makes me angry, but looking at it from the eyes of others it would still be pretty bad.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Nov 5, 2011)

Laws like this make me ashamed of living in Michigan...


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## the_randomizer (Nov 5, 2011)

You have my condolences.


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## wrettcaughn (Nov 5, 2011)

suprgamr232 said:


> Laws like this make me ashamed of living in Michigan...



me too...


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## godreborn (Nov 5, 2011)

Christians will cause the demise of their own religion.  I used to be Christian until I realized: "why would God allow his followers to spread hatred in his name"?   He is so meticulous about right and wrong in the Bible--did he wake up one day and say **** it?


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## digipokemaster (Nov 5, 2011)

this is not right  the law idea is good but i dont like how they worded it im gay and proud of it and im slamming this law too i dont live in michigan but if ever came up in missouri i will slam it as well



godreborn said:


> Christians will cause the demise of their own religion.  I used to be Christian until I realized: "why would God allow his followers to spread hatred in his name"?   He is so meticulous about right and wrong in the Bible--did he wake up one day and say **** it?


i agree i going to church because i have to but i quit believeing in it cause if a " god " really cared about right and wrong and wants us as we are but spread this kind of hate against gays i want no part of it my whole family hates gay so i feel a lot of hate around me


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## The Catboy (Nov 5, 2011)

So much for seperation of church and state. There is no moral nor religious reason to bully someone, plain and simple.


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## omgpwn666 (Nov 5, 2011)

A Gay Little Catboy said:


> So much for seperation of church and state. There is no moral nor religious reason to bully someone, plain and simple.



Exactly this. If you do bully someone using a religion as an excuse you should probably not even be in that religion. Religion is not supposed to be about hate.


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## CCNaru (Nov 5, 2011)

I'm from the South and I lol'd... seriously, Northern Americans?


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## xxNathanxx (Nov 5, 2011)

Ridiculous. Also


			
				Republican state senator said:
			
		

> Certainly a child should not be allowed to go up to another child and say he's going to hell


What? How does that make any sense? Is anyone even offended by someone else telling them they're going to hell?


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## smile72 (Nov 5, 2011)

If you say it enough to a very frightened Christian gay kid who just came out.He'd probably be offended.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

Old8oy said:


> suprgamr232 said:
> 
> 
> > Laws like this make me ashamed of living in Michigan...
> ...


Laws like this make me ashamed to call myself an american , and not because some bible thumper can call someone a homo and get away with it . I'm ashamed because free speech is being trampled on. No , I'm not talking about screaming fire in a movie theater either . I'm talking about the type of speech that might hurt your feelings , wtf . I'm ashamed that parents want to use there childs death as an excuse to take away this right. Freedom of speech is more powerful than any of our other rights. While I feel sad for the kids who decides to take their own lives and the parents who have to deal with it. I am sure as hell , that there is more to the story than just bullying , and to blame only bullying on such a thing is ridiculous . People that take thier own lives , have a chemical imbalance , now the bullying certainly doesnt help the situation , but , to say thats the cause is a cop out.


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

No this pretty much deals with bullying. That's why we created anti-bullying laws, bullying should be illegal. And I don't care when the Christians say "Homosexuality is unnatural." That's fine unless they can choose to be as stupid as they want to be. A lot of the gay kids who took their lives don't have mental disorders that cause depression, some do. I myself have bipolar disorder. And sometimes Freedom of Speech and Religion is overrated. But that's just my opinion.


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## Hyro-Sama (Nov 6, 2011)

Free speech doesn't exist IMO. There things you can't even say on the forum without them being censored. Also, making bullying illegal is stupid. Why not make Trolling illegal?


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

Bullying is different, it affects people's lives. If it happens in school you can't escape it.  And sometimes the school just doesn't care enough to do anything.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

The problem with laws like this is , they never fix anything ....kids will always be kids , you cant legislate away childish behaviour . I was bullied in 5th grade , then through my first 3 years of high school . When I reached 6th grade I was taller and all the sudden imtidating looking to my bully ( or atleast I suppose ) and he became terrified of me . In 11th grade I was locked in a class room with my new bully , it was him me and one other person . The other person was instigating a fight , I looked my bully dead in the eye ( all the rage was building up ) and I said go ahead and hit me , but I promise you , you will regret it .....the pussy backed off , and he was mocked for the rest of the year , and him and I became some what friends the following year ( by some what I mean , he was scared of me now , I didnt really care for him , but others were afraid of him ) I set his ass straight , because I stood up for myself , granted I really didnt have a choice , I was locked in a room with him.
The point is , the only way to stop a bully is to stand up to them . You cant legislate away these type of people , they will always be there no matter what you do .


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

And some people will never be able to stand up, that's a matter of life. And to some extent it will help, as long as it reported and the occasionally when the state forces the school to care.I know bullying will always happen, but so will murder, thievery, sexual assault, yet we feel the need to legislate these crimes. Do I believe bullies should go to jail, not necessarily, but they should be punished - through suspension and if serious enough expulsion.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

smile72 said:


> through suspension and if serious enough expulsion.



That would be a good start , but legislation like this isn't about that . Its about the money , its about who can I sue , its about who's at fault ( not me ) its about everything other than the cause .



smile72 said:


> , but so will murder, thievery, sexual assault, yet we feel the need to legislate these crimes.


To equate bullying with these crimes is like comparing apples to oranges . Anyone who thinks these things have anything in common , needs their head checked.


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

Nonetheless, sometimes state need to force their public schools using pieces of legislation. And if someone causes someone enough pain to take their life, sue them. People sue everyone over everything anyway.


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## Hells Malice (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004 said:


> Old8oy said:
> 
> 
> > suprgamr232 said:
> ...



You're a moron if you think you have a myriad of freedoms in America.
Freedoms are freedoms until that freedom tramples on another freedom. People should have the RIGHT to go to school, or be in public, or be ANYWHERE and not be insulted and bullied. You're a pathetic idiot if you think it's harmful to restrict "freedom of speech" just so people like you can trample on peoples "right" to live in peace.
Freedom of speech is a stupid excuse if you think it was ever meant to allow people to express harm unto others.




Hyro-Sama said:


> Free speech doesn't exist IMO. There things you can't even say on the forum without them being censored. Also, making bullying illegal is stupid. Why not make Trolling illegal?



You're trying to mix real life with the internet.
Which is hilariously dim. The internet and real life are two violently different places. Real life has laws, rights and restricted freedoms.
The internet, you can do virtually whatever you want. Sure there are some things that obviously stretch from real life into the internet, however manners and civility aren't typically included in that list of things. The only chance you have of being punished online for tormenting someone is if you know them in real life and torment them there as well.

I also forgot to include "there are things on the forum you can't say without them being censored". That is and isn't a restriction of freedom...unless you mean THIS forum, then yes it's a restriction. But if you go make your own forum, you can say whatever the hell you please on it. Thus no restriction. The internet just gives people the right to strip or enforce certain freedoms at their own will.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-02/world/ireland.blasphemy.law_1_blasphemy-law-religion-irish?_s=PM:WORLD If this is the world you wanna live in , I say move to that country . Just because my words may have hurt your feelings , that is no reason for you to be able to sue me . I say , toughen up.


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## Hells Malice (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004 said:


> http://articles.cnn....ish?_s=PM:WORLD If this is the world you wanna live in , I say move to that country . *Just because my words may have hurt your feelings , that is no reason for you to be able to sue me . I say , toughen up.*



"Just because my baseball bat may have broken your kneecaps, that is no reason for you to be able to sue me. I say, toughen up."


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't believe in blasphemy laws. So yeah, I would sue, and I this is not really related. Bullying in school is much different than censoring in a nation. I hope you realize that was a poor example.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

Hells Malice said:


> air2004 said:
> 
> 
> > Old8oy said:
> ...



So if I call you a [censored] , and say your a moron , I should be punished for that ? oh because your feelings got hurt becasue of my words , I'm sorry . How about I phrase it like this then . Your half the man you believe you are because your thoughts on what I said , and the comprehension of my words as it related to apples and oranges is twisted . You understand as a child , so maybe you are .

Whats worse is , if you and I get into a fight on the street for whatever reason , and as I'm kicking your ass I call you a [censored] , ( and you just happen to be gay ) I could be tried for a hate crime . Same scenario but your not gay , just becasue I said that word , again , I could be tried for a hate crime . Now the beatings where the same , but all the sudden you sexuality comes in to play . Why is that relevant ? If a straight guy beats the shit out of another straight guy , in the same manor mind you , why dont both crimes get the same amount of time ? ..................You want to be treated as an equal , but when push comes to shove , you want special considerations ??????????? Really


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

Why would you say that word in the first place? Would you call someone the n-word?? No, I just think your a dumbass.


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## Hells Malice (Nov 6, 2011)

Ah so your comprehension of what bullying is is what slows you down.
I've no use teaching retards the difference between tame, idle insults and bullying. They are two vastly different things.
You wont be sued for calling someone a moron, you moron. That isn't bullying someone. That's insulting someone.

Personally I don't need protection from bullying, and never have. No one was stupid enough to try bully the guy who could break them in half. But it's very understandable that people DO need protection from bullying. Not everyone can handle mental abuse, nor can people dish out physical abuse when people bother them. Thus, the law must intervene to assist these people.

Frankly your ridiculous little debate holds no ground as your only argument is that "I should be allowed to make fun of people, because i'm an American." It's really hard to debate with someone _that _stupid. So, hell, it's commendable for me even trying.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

Everything is relative , as for insults , again its the samething........and that what people dont get .........I gotta go


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

You sound like an asshole.I bet if you fought a black/asian/hispanic person you wouldn't be using slurs against them.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 6, 2011)

Laws like this are the prime example as to why Religion and State should be kept separated by a 6-story high concrete wall with barbed wire at the top.

It's entirely true that according to the bible, homosexual acts are sinful. It's also entirely true that the Bible was put together more than a thousand years ago and requires certain "revisions". Even if it didn't though, a true Christian doesn't point out the faults in their neighbour but looks for them in himself.



> "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
> ~Matthew 7:3



Not only it's unchristian to say that someone will "go to hell" for whatever reason, it's also againts plain human courtesy.

Pay no attention to moronic laws like this, there are "christians" and there are "Christians", it's quite easy to differentiate between the two. You generally won't see the capital "Ch" ones rallying againts something idiotic.


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## Jakob95 (Nov 6, 2011)

I usually think the problem in these cases are always the schools.  The teachers don't ever care at all and just say that the boys are acting like boys.  The schools should regulate and make sure these things don't happen.  I was never bullied but I also haven't saw anyone bullied in my school.


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## The Catboy (Nov 6, 2011)

@most of the recent replies.
Honestly there needs to be laws or rules or something in effect towards bullying. Bullying is a form of harrassment, abuse, and several other unacceptable behaviors that in  the real world would get your ass locked up. Honestly the freedom of speech does not cover bullying and people should be punished for doing it as they would be for breaking any other rule or law.


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## Foxi4 (Nov 6, 2011)

A Gay Little Catboy said:


> @most of the recent replies.
> Honestly there needs to be laws or rules or something in effect towards bullying. Bullying is a form of harrassment, abuse, and several other unacceptable behaviors that in  the real world would get your ass locked up. Honestly the freedom of speech does not cover bullying and people should be punished for doing it as they would be for breaking any other rule or law.


While I agree that bullying should be kept in wraps, I do not think it should be a matter of State law. I honestly believe that the School rules set is entirely sufficient. It is the teachers that are obligated to do something about bullying, and if they fail to do so then they should be subjected to penalties comming straight from their superiors.

Other than that, anything that constitutes bullying and happens outside of the school should be conscidered an assault or psychological harrasment and is already dealt with on the basis of different laws. Then, it's the parent's job to report said occourence.


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

We still need laws that force public schools to stop bullying. As some schools don't care about bullying especially if it's LGBT related.


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## s4mid4re (Nov 6, 2011)

Foxi4 said:


> *snip
> While I agree that bullying should be kept in wraps, I do not think it should be a matter of State law. I honestly believe that the School rules set is entirely sufficient. *It is the teachers that are obligated to do something about bullying, and if they fail to do so then they should be subjected to penalties comming straight from their superiors.*
> 
> Other than that, anything that constitutes bullying and happens outside of the school should be conscidered an assault or psychological harrasment and is already dealt with on the basis of different laws. Then, it's the parent's job to report said occourence.


The problem is this law. The law allows bullying as long as you're considered immoral or goes against certain religions; even teachers can't do a thing to stop, if conditions are met.


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## Supercool330 (Nov 6, 2011)

Ya, this has basically made bullying gay students legal.  This is the dumbest thing ever, and completely defeats the purpose of this law.


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## Sheimi (Nov 6, 2011)

I been bullied from 5th grade to 12th grade. How the fuck did this pass. This shouldn't be a law in the 1st place.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

The last several posts sound like whats popular today . Its called sue , sue , sue . As for using the word [censored] , apparently my point was missed. If your gay your gay , ( now back when I was a bible thumper , it was a problem , I seen you all as one of the last commings to the end of the world ) but after reading lots of religious texts , hindu holy scripts , buddhist txts , kabala , the koran , the book of mormon , a book on sikhism and the bible ( king james version ) cover to cover ( I dont think most people have ever done that ) ( it took me 4 months at 3 hours a day ) . I'm a firm believer in do no harm , that is the first rule , of the buddha ........Anyway , my point is this ......... The laws that you all are for , the bullying I mean , does have consequences ..... Careful what you wish for .

I'm reffering to smile and back as far the posts are concerned


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

But bullying still does more harm, air2004. And nobody was even mentioning lawsuits until you did, and I was the only one who replied to that.


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## koimayeul (Nov 6, 2011)

A Gay Little Catboy said:


> So much for seperation of church and state. There is no moral nor religious reason to bully someone, plain and simple.


I love how your insight on matters, i couldn't say it better. Those lawyers are mixing the two and litteraly justifying trouble. No religion is delivering an aggressive message, unless sects, extremists of this one or another and islam to some extent. As for this law, you would be surprise how much LGBT know about self defense lol.


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## VashTS (Nov 6, 2011)

that means its allowing bullying. using a moral or religious backing to bullying means nothing.

i say bully everyone for every reason. the way i dealt with bullying (only happened a couple times), i participated. make fun of yourself, enjoy it, once you go above them, it belittles them.

my only question: how can you be bullied about something that is true to yourself and your beliefs?



Spoiler



you can't, i wont go further in depth on that, draw your own conclusions


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

Or it makes them think lower of you and then they bully you even more or gang up and beat you.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

smile72 said:


> But bullying still does more harm, air2004. And nobody was even mentioning lawsuits until you did, and I was the only one who replied to that.


I mention it , because that will be the next step . I promise you . That is what this country is about . Kids , as hard as this may seem to except , can and will kill themselves , its a fact of life . Do not allow your emotions to affect your judgement ( what reason could a kid wanna kill himself ) ( depression doesnt only affect , adults , and depression isnt caused only by the affected persons situation in life ) drepression is a multi stage life symptom.


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## Thesolcity (Nov 6, 2011)

smile72 said:


> > *the law doesn't prohibit expression of religious or moral viewpoints*



Freedom of speech....freedom of speech. Also freedom of Religion. While certain things may make it a hate crime they aren't going to hinder general freedom of expression.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

One thing I haven't told you was , in middle school , and high school ( yes while facing my own bully ) I protected others from there bullys ( odd isn't it , I can laugh about it now )


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004 You sound like your talking out of your ass. You have no comprehension of this law at all. If your talking about wrongful death lawsuits, those will happen regardless of any law. Anti bullying laws just force public schools to take a closer look at bullying.


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## s4mid4re (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004 said:


> One thing I haven't told you was , in middle school , and high school ( yes while facing my own bully )* I protected others from there bullys *( odd isn't it , I can laugh about it now )


I totally respect you for that. When I was in middle school there was this guy that was being severely bullied for having a weird voice. I didn't associate with him that much, but he was a true angel. I always tried avoiding interfering when he was getting bullied, for I am physically underdeveloped (not a disease or lack of food, but I still weigh under 100 pounds [approximately 45kg]).

EDIT: I was probably under 80 pounds at that time, since I didn't have a trickle of muscle (assuming that I have _some_ now ) and an increase in height and bone density. iirc, this was probably 8th grade.

I feel so bad about myself now... ;_;


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

smile72 said:


> air2004 You sound like your talking out of your ass. You have no comprehension of this law at all. If your talking about wrongful death lawsuits, those will happen regardless of any law. Anti bullying laws just force public schools to take a closer look at bullying.


If you know anything about the law , you will realize what you just said was complete gibberish .......Have you ever heard of a thing called civil court ???????


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## Domination (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004 said:


> http://articles.cnn....ish?_s=PM:WORLD If this is the world you wanna live in , I say move to that country . Just because my words may have hurt your feelings , that is no reason for you to be able to sue me . I say , toughen up.



Quite the contrary, there's a entire classification of law, tort law, that governs over the civil duties between citizens. It includes negligence and defamation amongst other things. In fact, the entire civil law system is just pretty much the same, people have unjustifiably committed wrongs against you that's why you want to sue them. I know Americans love to abuse the court system, but that doesn't mean the system is unjustified, it was created by the Europeans for personal justice.

Besides, the magnitude of this isn't anywhere the same as lawsuits, they do not have to pay any damages for bullying, look at the list of remedies they exampled.

You have your freedom of speech, but don't hang onto your first amendment like its the end all be all. You have obligations to society, it is not all just about your freedom of speech. You should be able to insult people out of good fun and humour, we all do that(and even, then, its limited to friends or closer acquaintances), but to claim that you should be able to insult people to the point of great psychological and emotional hurt, and even suicide, is pretty egoistical.

Society is a very large mechanism that needs its gears to work together harmoniously, you have duties to fulfill to other people, and if you fulfill yours, they will fulfill theirs. 

And people are saying "So what? I've been bullied in elementary school, just get over it and move on", I have never been bullied throughout all 10 of my schooling years, or at least very minimally as I don't recount any of such events, and I don't see why I would want to be bullied and just accept it. A good education system should also ensure the mental and physical well being of the children, children are very important to the nation. Reporting to disciplinary departments is just a solution to the temporary problem, there should be a reform to ensure less children get bullied.

And a child's psychological and mental development can affect him for the rest of his life, its during these developmental years that they are most greatly impacted. Just because you are alright after being bullying doesn't mean every would be.

But to be fair, making this a state law is over doing it a little, but unless the schools are willing to tighten up discipline voluntarily and also enforce better moral education, I don't see why children should be subjected to emotional hurt. Bullying is not a small problem, it is very rampant and the percentage of students that get bullied is relatively large all around the world.

And yes, "Kids , as hard as this may seem to except , can and will kill themselves", but shouldn't we, as bystanders, be helping them and ensuring they don't kill themselves?


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004 I'm not mentioning criminal court. Of course I have that's where wrongful death lawsuits will be heard.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

Domination said:


> air2004 said:
> 
> 
> > http://articles.cnn....ish?_s=PM:WORLD If this is the world you wanna live in , I say move to that country . Just because my words may have hurt your feelings , that is no reason for you to be able to sue me . I say , toughen up.
> ...


I say touche , to most of what you said . Very good sir . But , the lawyers will make you pay for bullying , they will call it emotional distress ect.
And yes bullying is bigger than most people know ( or atleast willing to admit )
But what is the answer ? the minute a politician tells me they have the answer , thats when I begin to worry . Instead of common sense , emotion is used to pass said law ( and that is dangerous) emotion should not sit at the table of logic.


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

Without emotion many human rights law wouldn't have been passed.


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## Thesolcity (Nov 6, 2011)

smile72 said:


> Without emotion many human rights law wouldn't have been passed.



That's without question. I think people are misreading the law though. IMO that's just there to reassure people their freedom of expression isn't being denied.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

Thesolcity said:


> smile72 said:
> 
> 
> > Without emotion many human rights law wouldn't have been passed.
> ...


What are those human right laws ? and when was the last time a law stopped someone from commiting a crime ? Everything is subjective , religous persuasion is what has corrupted thought and law . Laws are useless against the lawless , all they due is tie the hands of the lawful.


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## Midna (Nov 6, 2011)

Welcome the the United States of America.


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## Hells Malice (Nov 6, 2011)

Domination said:


> air2004 said:
> 
> 
> > http://articles.cnn....ish?_s=PM:WORLD If this is the world you wanna live in , I say move to that country . Just because my words may have hurt your feelings , that is no reason for you to be able to sue me . I say , toughen up.
> ...



Awesome post.
Too bad Air is retarded and wont understand a thing you just said.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

Hells Malice said:


> Domination said:
> 
> 
> > air2004 said:
> ...


Thanks Hells , now I understand what is wrong with the voting system .......on a side note , sadly hells votes :-( ......I say this to you Mr. Malice , you may have made a lot of posts on this site , but sadly , you have said nothing .


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004, look at how gay marriage has been passed in certain states that relies more on emotion than logic, and most of the human rights laws such as civil rights related laws and women's voting were passed thanks to the help of emotion. So under your logic no law, murderers can kill all they want. Thieves can steal without punishment.


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## wrettcaughn (Nov 6, 2011)

harassment in any form is illegal in the adult world.  bullying is harassment.  I'm not understanding how an anti-bullying law can infringe upon "free-speech" any more than sexual harassment or stalking laws...

air, it really sounds like you're taking the "I had to deal with it so everyone else should have to too" stance...  i suppose wouldn't make you a bad person, just spiteful.


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## Domination (Nov 6, 2011)

air2004 said:


> But what is the answer ? the minute a politician tells me they have the answer , thats when I begin to worry . Instead of common sense , emotion is used to pass said law ( and that is dangerous) emotion should not sit at the table of logic.



I would say this though, politicians don't know everything, there's a humorous comment I heard from a senator in the movie "Religulous": You don't have to pass an IQ test to be a senator.

But there are smart senators, and there also senators that connect with their represented demographic through grassroots and community interaction. And some of them are also very personally involved in some matters(i.e. they themselves are gay or targets of bullying), they have a rather strong and well thought out view on how to remedy problems long before they were elected to senate.

They might not be satisfactory to everybody, and might not be extremely effective, but they are still remedies nonetheless. This bill is in no way a remedy.

Sen. Whitmer summarises my views on the bill pretty well here:
[yt]zDK-ja8PLgg[/yt]


Matt's father speaking out against the bill:
[yt]HxDNATDLgfg[/yt]

This bill doesn't remedy anything, it is actually a step backwards, it would be better to not pass this bill at all, it's just a hollow bill that doesn't change the status quo. Calling it Matt's Safe School Law is an insult to his legacy.


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## air2004 (Nov 6, 2011)

Domination said:


> air2004 said:
> 
> 
> > But what is the answer ? the minute a politician tells me they have the answer , thats when I begin to worry . Instead of common sense , emotion is used to pass said law ( and that is dangerous) emotion should not sit at the table of logic.
> ...


And some of them are also very personally involved in some matters(i.e. they themselves are gay or targets of bullying), they have a rather strong and well thought out view on how to remedy problems long before they were elected to senate.
Isnt that called a conflict of interest ? Calling it Matt's Safe School Law is an insult to his legacy....... Matt left a legacy ? what legacy was that ? ..................I know I may sound callous at times . But I want you to open your eyes , and think about what your asking for . If you cant do that , then there is nothing else I can say .
I will no longer allow you to drag me down to your level , and then beat me with experience ( some will know what I'm saying there )


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## sputnix (Nov 6, 2011)

If they just changed the "moral or religious" to "in self defense or in aid of another" then people would have no problem with it.


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

Drag you down to what level, you have no point. You make no sense. Your basically saying all law is useless, if you can't defend yourself people can bully you. And that people will kill themselves so let's not try to stop it.


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## s4mid4re (Nov 6, 2011)

sputnix said:


> If they just changed the "moral or religious" to "*in self defense or in aid of another*" then people would have no problem with it.


That would be considered assault, not bullying.


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## sputnix (Nov 6, 2011)

s4mid4re said:


> sputnix said:
> 
> 
> > If they just changed the "moral or religious" to "*in self defense or in aid of another*" then people would have no problem with it.
> ...


I believe the reason they said "moral or religious" is for the exact reason why I said they should have changed it to "in self defense or in aid of another." I seriously doubt they put that last paragraph _just _so people could beat the shit out of others because the bible says gays "are immoral and will not be allowed in heaven," they put that there so if a schoolyard fight breaks out and one guy beat another guy because he was beating someone else smaller than him and his religion says he should protect the weak then it would be OK and he wouldn't be charged for it.


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## BlueStar (Nov 6, 2011)

You don't have free speech in school.  You can't call your teacher a cunt, you can't threaten to kill a classmate, you can't bully people for being gay.

Free speech isn't about defending people's right to be a little dick at school and impinge on the ability of others to learn.

If you behaved in this manner to an adult in your workplace or community it would be criminal stalking or harassment. When a child is being victimised in this way, suddenly we have to worry that we're oppressing the rights of the poor little darling calling them a [censored]? Give me a break.


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## smile72 (Nov 6, 2011)

A lot of people don't realize this. but school mainly takes away a lot of your rights when you enter. BlueStar is right there really is no Freedom of Speech in school.


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## notmeanymore (Nov 6, 2011)

> a provision specifically noting that the law doesn't prohibit expression of religious or moral viewpoints.


If expressing your moral viewpoints requires violence, you should probably rethink those viewpoints.

People set up such strange moral codes for themselves instead of using the one provided to them by God.
Edit: I'm not exempt from that previous statement either.


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## Gahars (Nov 7, 2011)

This is bad and all, but I kind of have a problem with this wave of reactionary Bully craze.

Yeah, bullying is bad, and I'm sympathetic to the people championing them, but I think it just goes too far. As sad as it is, bullying is a natural part of growing up; legislation will never completely prevent it. The kids who want to torment another student will easily find a way around these new rules. Plus, they are so extreme that they often end up punishing good kids over trivial incidents (Playful shoving can be considered bullying, for example) while burying already overburdened schools in paperwork.

The intentions are good, sure, but that's just enough.


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## Domination (Nov 7, 2011)

air2004 said:


> Isnt that called a conflict of interest ? Calling it Matt's Safe School Law is an insult to his legacy....... Matt left a legacy ? what legacy was that ? ..................I know I may sound callous at times . But I want you to open your eyes , and think about what your asking for . If you cant do that , then there is nothing else I can say .
> I will no longer allow you to drag me down to your level , and then beat me with experience ( some will know what I'm saying there )



Conflict of interest? Conflict of interest is when you are doing something for personal gain, i.e. profiteering or arranging contracts with your political powers or helping an affiliated company through your office. These actions are generally prevented through anti-corruption laws.

*Politicians are elected to pass reforms that they deem to benefit the people they represent*, that's their main role! They are doing something that is supposed to benefit everyone, I see no way anyone can directly benefit from this bill, except for the bullies. The way you say it, all politicians are faced with conflicts of interest? They vote on a bill based on their  personal, individual judgement, or for many Republicans, based on party guidelines or for their own profit. Everything is personal. Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and the rest of your founding fathers were sick of the UK's tyranny over them. That seems pretty personal to me. So they were facing conflicts of interest as well? 
Matt's legacy? I don't know? Maybe the fact the bill was named after him? If someone was named after a law that advocates bullying, I wonder how well their name holds up throughout the eons. His name will effectively be on it forever. They initiated this bill because of Matt, but they are now passing something that advocates what drove Matt to his suicide. I think that's pretty insensitive of the Republicans.

If you could stoop "down to my level", please do, I would love to encourage more critical thinking. You are just requesting for me to open my eyes and think about it, and I have been considering it all along. I have said it before, I believe legislature may be a tad overboard, but I would still support it rather than allowing more children to be subjected to bullying. And more importantly, the topic at hand is this bill is clearly wrong. You can dissent the anti-bullying bill that helps stop bullying in schools, but this incarnation of it is *clearly morally wrong*. 

I assume that you are believe that my views are inferior to yours, that's why you presume my eyes are snap shut? You say that without presenting any form of persuasive or coherent counter argument. At least present your point, not just plainly ask me to "wake up".


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