# Trump-Appointed Judge Blocks Biden's Student Debt Relief Plan



## Nothereed (Nov 15, 2022)

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/11/bid...pplications-for-student-loan-forgiveness.html
Ah yes, of course, the same party that introduced the paid collage system, now wants to ensure that anyone struggling with that debt doesn't get help.
What a pro family move.

Which with my totally real crystal balls, we predicted this would happen in September.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/07/republicans-may-try-to-block-student-loan-forgiveness.html

now the thing is it doesn't outright kill student debt relief, as there's a legal pathway Biden can carve out.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/08/biden-student-debt-relief-legal-supreme-court.html
Mostly involving cutting down the scope of assistance. Aka, helping even less families because that's a pro family move.
But yeah, Republicans being predictable in not helping, what a surprise.


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## Taleweaver (Nov 16, 2022)

Hmm... I've got two points of (mild) criticism here...
1) you bring the argument that the judge's ruling was politically based. The article doesn't say that. Only that the judge was appointed by Trump. In theory, judges should act independently, regardless of politics. Claiming its a republican move is your personal opinion. An opinion i share, but it's not in the articles (unless i misread that).

2) it's blocked, yes... But not exactly going nowhere. It's kind of hilarious how that rules expert puts it...

The main obstacle for those hoping to bring a legal challenge against Biden JH plan has been finding a plaintiff who can prove they’ve been harmed by the policy.

Yeah... Good luck finding someone who's hurt by receiving money, Pittman 
So yeah... It strengthens the belief that the judge is just sucking up to Republicans rather than doing their job. And... Okay, it's a 28 kraagje reasoning, but if the newspapers picked "were not ruled by someone with a pen and a phone" as the strongest argument, it's mostly a waste of paper. 

Or to put it legally: "it has no standing"


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Nov 16, 2022)

Forgiving debt is unfair towards those whose debt is not forgiven.


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## The Catboy (Nov 16, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Forgiving debt is unfair towards those whose debt is not forgiven.


It’s really not. Progress has to be made regardless of actions in the past. This logic is like saying that living people are unfair to those who died. It’s progress stopper that’s actually unfair to future generations that shouldn’t suffer because those in the past were made to suffer.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Nov 16, 2022)

The Catboy said:


> It’s really not. Progress has to be made regardless of actions in the past. This logic is like saying that living people are unfair to those who died. It’s progress stopper that’s actually unfair to future generations that shouldn’t suffer because those in the past were made to suffer.


There are plently of people who are not dead yet. Some of them are younger. Will they get their paid debt back? Can they study again for free? If they can´t, where is the progress? (if a baby mentality of wanting everything for free is progress; it might be the opposite)


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## lolcatzuru (Nov 16, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> Hmm... I've got two points of (mild) criticism here...
> 1) you bring the argument that the judge's ruling was politically based. The article doesn't say that. Only that the judge was appointed by Trump. In theory, judges should act independently, regardless of politics. Claiming its a republican move is your personal opinion. An opinion i share, but it's not in the articles (unless i misread that).
> 
> 2) it's blocked, yes... But not exactly going nowhere. It's kind of hilarious how that rules expert puts it...
> ...



he has an excuse man , just leave him alone.

	Post automatically merged: Nov 16, 2022



Taleweaver said:


> Hmm... I've got two points of (mild) criticism here...
> 1) you bring the argument that the judge's ruling was politically based. The article doesn't say that. Only that the judge was appointed by Trump. In theory, judges should act independently, regardless of politics. Claiming its a republican move is your personal opinion. An opinion i share, but it's not in the articles (unless i misread that).
> 
> 2) it's blocked, yes... But not exactly going nowhere. It's kind of hilarious how that rules expert puts it...
> ...



also they blocked it while they look into jail time


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## The Catboy (Nov 16, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> There are plently of people who are not dead yet. Some of them are younger. Will they get their paid debt back? Can they study again for free? If they can´t, where is the progress? (if a baby mentality of wanting everything for free is progress; it might be the opposite)


Should people get paid back for buying stuff before it goes on sale? Should people be paid back for any previous investment that later became free or a reduced price? No, they shouldn’t and it’s because progress does not always mean fair compensation. I am sorry to say this but I don’t think people who paid for college should get their money back. Shit has to move forward, even if that means needing leave stuff in the past. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t push to prevent future generations from going through what the same shit. Equally, we have the money to afford paying for colleges. We have rich people not paying a dime in taxes, we have a military budget that’s ludicrously high, and we have wealthy millionaires and billionaires making bank off the tax payers money. This isn’t “free” it’s using the money we already have to ensure future generations don’t go into a lifetime student loan debt.


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## EldritchPenumbra (Nov 16, 2022)

Is this a Generation Z thing where in Gen Z wants a free ride where those before them did not? And who floats that bill? Why is college still important anyhow? Unless you want to be a doctor or something, I fail to see the point of attending one in the first place. Surely there are better alternatives to acquire skills.


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## nero99 (Nov 16, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Forgiving debt is unfair towards those whose debt is not forgiven.


That's like saying its unfair that my parents can afford a $185,000 house and I can't. See how silly your comment is?


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## Nothereed (Nov 16, 2022)

EldritchPenumbra said:


> Is this a Generation Z thing where in Gen Z wants a free ride where those before them did not?


_studying your words_



EldritchPenumbra said:


> Why is college still important anyhow?


... *bruh*


EldritchPenumbra said:


> Unless you want to be a doctor or something, I fail to see the point of attending one in the first place.


_*double bruh*_
Alright my response. First off, collage should be free or tax paid, like all other education. It's not gen z taking a free car ride.

It's more so genz and millennials going "wait, this used to be ours, for everyone, and then some rich asshat made it unreasonably difficult. Fuck that"

 Did you know that collage used to be not privatized?



And Nixon/Regan came along, and said "Nah, the poor people don't need it, they need to 'work' for it" and then made it privatized.  (not really, they more accurately were afraid of a educated populous. so he made it private, in hopes that less of those "hippies" who were against the war would stop doing hippie things. But I'm using this version to demonstrate a point)

 Which meant it had to be profitable, and always making more money.
While simultaneously making it effectively impossible for the poor to access it reasonably for generations without entering so much debt that they realistically can't pay off because they can only pay the interest. B

Because the cost of collage had to go up, in order to keep profits rising. Increasing over 100 times what it should be if we took the cost of it back in say, 1970-80ish, and accounted for inflation.

And that's also exuding the people who dropped out of collage, who have no way of paying those debts off.


Second perhaps idk... Collage is good for like idk. the sake of knowledge, to be you know. To be smart? Like, perhaps in a democratic society we should have people be as informed as possible about their lives in meaningful ways? Hell, how about just subjects that person is truly interested in learning about, and don't intend to make a career out of it.


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## wartutor (Nov 16, 2022)

I just want to know when the government is going to pay my house and car loan. I know i took out the loan and i signed papers stating i will pay that money back with interest and EVERY FUCKING DETAIL was layed out on paper and presented to me before i signed it but apparently its the norm to want the government to step in and pay my shit...fuck off if you took the loan you should have to pay it. Dont pass it to the hard working tax paying society. On another note they need to step in and make education more affordable but not at the cost of others. It was a simple ploy to get this stupid generation out to vote for democrats. Basically buying votes without ever paying anything (unlike when biden told everyone they would get $1400 when georga runoff election is won by a democrat in 2020.) Sould of instantly been charges brought up then.


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## Nothereed (Nov 16, 2022)

wartutor said:


> i will pay that money back with interest and EVERY FUCKING DETAIL was layed out on paper and presented to me before i signed it but apparently its the norm to want the government to step in and pay my shit...fuck off if you took the loan you should have to pay it.


now imagine that you couldn't pay that loan, you so you file for bankruptcy, and the court goes "you're not having enough undo hardship" (the requirement needed to get a federal student loan cleared, which historically, judges almost never rule with you on it) So that loan isn't forgiven. So your stuck paying a unpayable loan, living like jack shit, can't get rid of it, your wage is constantly garnished, and it only pays interest.

ISN'T THAT COOL!
Unlike every other loan, in which you can file for bankruptcy. Student Loans, don't go away so easily. As my teacher who worked in the education department told me (paraphrased)
"They don't leave until you die, so make sure if you go to collage, you complete it"
Yeah this isn't like a car payment.
Also additionally, unlike a car payment. Getting better paying jobs, is often locked behind having a degree.

In which, again, the privatized collage system, wants you to pay as fucking much as possible. So they'll happily offer bogus degrees, so you have to comeback, eat even more student loan debt (which those collages get the money from), and oh hey, your supposed to have a house. What's that? your two jobs isn't enough? Well just work harder 4head. You'll pay it off when your 60, and that's assuming the job market hasn't crashed. And you'll _maaaybe_ retire when your 90, presuming the market doesn't go crash again.
isn't that a fulfilling life? Slaving at debt away for your entire life starting around 20?
Oh and I haven't even gotten to the fact that for the vast majority of people (pretty much everyone outside of the top 10%)
Life expectancy has dropped, while the richest of people, their life expectancy increased.


I don't mind paying a little bit in taxes, if it means this bullshit system get's fucking removed, it's costly for the sake of being costly for profit sake.


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## EldritchPenumbra (Nov 16, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> _studying your words_
> 
> 
> ... *bruh*
> ...


Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Is this information present within the archives of the Library of Congress, or did Nixon have it all erased so the Hippies could not prove their case?


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## wartutor (Nov 16, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> now imagine that you couldn't pay that loan, you so you file for bankruptcy, and the court goes "you're not having enough undo hardship" (the requirement needed to get a federal student loan cleared, which historically, judges almost never rule with you on it) So that loan isn't forgiven. So your stuck paying a unpayable loan, living like jack shit, can't get rid of it, your wage is constantly garnished, and it only pays interest.
> 
> ISN'T THAT COOL!
> Unlike every other loan, in which you can file for bankruptcy. Student Loans, don't go away so easily. As my teacher who worked in the education department told me (paraphrased)
> ...


Then maybe you should of taken something beside gender identity in college...or maybe put the beer bong down and studied. Its noone elses fault you took a loan out and picked something in college you cant make money in to pay your debt back but your own.


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## Nothereed (Nov 16, 2022)

wartutor said:


> Then maybe you should of taken something beside gender identity in college...or maybe put the beer bong down and studied.


Your two attempts at "owning me" is in really poor taste. Secondly I'm not in college. My friends are, who are constantly stressed out, anxious about their debts, and working a part time job (which college, is pretty much a full time job. so doing effectively two jobs, while needing to study. fun.)
As for my college education, it's likely going to be in Denmark when I manage to scrape the funds to move over there.
Had I not had unique circumstances that let me move out "early," I would be in college right now due to my mom insisting I go, ignoring the costs.
Edit:
Additionally, there's a lot of good sounding degrees that are worth nothing when it comes to the job market. Often it will state the role your looking for specifically, but then you'd fine out, that degree was bullshit, and the real one was in some acronym that has a mix of other fields, and that's the one expected.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 16, 2022)

EldritchPenumbra said:


> Is this a Generation Z thing where in Gen Z wants a free ride where those before them did not? And who floats that bill? Why is college still important anyhow? Unless you want to be a doctor or something, I fail to see the point of attending one in the first place. Surely there are better alternatives to acquire skills.



Americans lol "yeah how dare we improve society everyone should struggle like we did"


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## EldritchPenumbra (Nov 16, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> Americans lol "yeah how dare we improve society everyone should struggle like we did"


Well I mean it sounds like you guys are crying about having to pay for services that the government isn't even responsible for in the first place. The fact is that many (not all) of those services are a complete waste of money and time and one would be better off self training or getting under some sort of apprenticeship. Expanding the role of government has NEVER been the answer. In fact you can just look at the advent of compulsory education with all its testing, corporate funded and directed  curriculum and see where that has gotten us. For what ever reason, prior to the 20th century when school houses shared a book, did their work on mini chalk boards, and teachers had a direct relationship with the teachers; schools produced people with a broader awareness, a broader set of skills, and who brought to basis for many inventions that we take for granted today, where as this generation, what has it produced? Demands for so call Communism and the NFT?
​


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## CommanderCool (Nov 16, 2022)

EldritchPenumbra said:


> Well I mean it sounds like you guys are crying about having to pay for services that the government isn't even responsible for in the first place. The fact is that many (not all) of those services are a complete waste of money and time and one would be better off self training or getting under some sort of apprenticeship. Expanding the role of government has NEVER been the answer. In fact you can just look at the advent of compulsory education with all its testing, corporate funded and directed  curriculum and see where that has gotten us. For what ever reason, prior to the 20th century when school houses shared a book, did their work on mini chalk boards, and teachers had a direct relationship with the teachers; schools produced people with a broader awareness, a broader set of skills, and who brought to basis for many inventions that we take for granted today, where as this generation, what has it produced? Demands for so call Communism and the NFT?
> ​


i stopped reading after "you guys" cause you implied i have a side in this


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## chrisrlink (Nov 17, 2022)

personally i feel it's better to freelance work especally now since most companies won't hire anyone even entry level without a degree Advanced jobs like scinece work i can see that but some of us don't have the patients for 4+ years  but some of these burger flipping jobs state you need an associates degree uh had no idea fast food was so complex, on another note a person with a deploma may not be the best pick over someone who study for hours using nothing but youtube  and personal experiance


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## Valwinz (Nov 17, 2022)

Biden use it to buy votes and it worked now is not needed anymore since he already tricked the idiots lol


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## CommanderCool (Nov 17, 2022)

Valwinz said:


> Biden use it to buy votes and it worked now is not needed anymore since he already tricked the idiots lol



Cite sources


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## elrayo (Nov 17, 2022)

I can't believe the shit I've read on this thread. Dude it's a prehistoric society to live in if you NEED to pay to FUCKING study man. Like what the fuck it's a human right why is people still arguing about something so basic in developed countries


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## Hanafuda (Nov 17, 2022)

EldritchPenumbra said:


> Is this a Generation Z thing where in Gen Z wants a free ride where those before them did not? And who floats that bill? Why is college still important anyhow? Unless you want to be a doctor or something, I fail to see the point of attending one in the first place. Surely there are better alternatives to acquire skills.



My daughter just started college, and she does intend to go to medical school so pretty much only one road.

And along with some grants and scholarships, and financial support from us her parents, she did have to borrow via Federal student loans.

Question is ... if the Federal government is forgiving student loan debt for those who've already gone to school, why does she need to incur new debt now? Why isn't the Federal government swooping in to cover the college expense of current students, instead of just making them take more loans???

I suspect the answer is, they never intended this to really happen anyway.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Nov 17, 2022)

elrayo said:


> I can't believe the shit I've read on this thread. Dude it's a prehistoric society to live in if you NEED to pay to FUCKING study man. Like what the fuck it's a human right why is people still arguing about something so basic in developed countries


I could study the history of Street Fighter. Why should society pay for that? Child education is a human right, not adult education.


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## SG854 (Nov 17, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I could study the history of Street Fighter. Why should society pay for that? Child education is a human right, not adult education.


But why not be consistent and make both a human right?

Society is already paying for one why not pay for both?

Seems strange to cut it off right when they needs to learn specific skills for their career choice, which you don't learn in HS but learn in College. HS is more of generic education. College is specified.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 17, 2022)

Another day, another    notimp Nothereed thread wherein apparently more than half the population could conceivably support unmitigated evil (this despite all politicians proving themselves incompetent and corrupt on the regular) but might as well play.

The better solution is to reduce the amounts guaranteed by the loans.

That way only the capable, those likely to pay back or already rich get in rather than the free for all party (and pork barrel/gravy train for terminal academics) that most things seem to end up being.


SG854 said:


> But why not be consistent and make both a human right?
> 
> Society is already paying for one why not pay for both?
> 
> Seems strange to cut it off right when they needs to learn specific skills for their career choice, which you don't learn in HS but learn in College. HS is more of generic education. College is specified.



Cost is usually the answer, especially if you are going to be paying the ridiculously inflated prices that the US seems to go in for. Does it provide a suitable return on investment and could the limited funds (we will pretend for a moment it is not money printer go brr and actually trying to use funds from taxes, incomes and investments such that they don't spend more than they make or debt is not rolled over endlessly as a tax on the lazy investor*).

The cost of it (in addition to not having your youth in the workforce/generating income for 4 years if you fall for the con like the US does and 3 years in the rest of the world, 4 if you do a masters) vs what they might achieve by other means (on the job training, apprenticeships, military, whatever they come out of I would agree not very useful at present compared to past high school with, self teaching, entrepreneurship). Already it is quite a questionable thing for most, and would be even if it was significantly cheaper -- many would say if you are not going for STEM (science, technology, engineering, maths, and even those have their don't touch this area aspects** or medicine) then don't bother, be rich already or be exceptional in your field -- the world does need more historians but performance requirements are high, and while law is often in that list it has changed to being only if it is a top tier school for it. Even then the tech side of things is questionable for a lot of people -- plenty of computing firms take people in with nothing (or harder to obtain skills -- trying to get the average nerd to contemplate physical security is difficult, training some former military/police/security services how to use a port scanner or prebaked tools is rather easier) and train them up, and even in more traditional engineering plenty of non degree avenues into that even if we don't consider the self educated and many of those I would pick for my team over a freshly graduated degree holder.
This is also before whether we consider if people are capable of it -- I have my misgivings with a lot of IQ based efforts*** but I would put it forward as a jumping off point (IQ also being a heritable trait for the most part). That is also saying nothing about interest in the subject; I pull things apart because it is fun and will do it 14 hours a day, someone else can learn but if they have to force themselves to do that then they are a massive disadvantage. This can also vary between the sexes if we want to bring that into it as some do, and the damage it does to "affirmative action" hires is also on the cards (take some of the poor purple eyed people into your school because it makes your sorting historical oppression feelings tingle but run out of the smart ones, relax some requirements and let the lesser ones in and the lesser ones that might have done really well at the lesser roles in society... well the wash out rates speak for themselves).

*your pension fund and such like is probably required to have government debts as a significant fraction of their portfolio, one reason why they rarely beat inflation or sticking it in the market index and walking away.

**employment rates of those that go in for biology and biochemistry is perhaps not as high as some other areas, and computing varies dramatically as well between squeaked through java coding for idiots and could code a new fully featured OS tomorrow computer science type, or barely able to work helldesk vs able to deploy a whole new infrastructure if going that way.

***videos because why not

I know some are not as great a fan of the guy but this is less how to live your life and more observable reality.


Did have one for levels of reading but going with a link https://fs.blog/levels-of-reading/
Short version of that is there are various levels of reading, not everybody is capable of them all and that limits peak performance (if you can't take 5 multiple ambiguous sources, tease out useful info to come to a larger conclusion and go from there then you are never going to make a good lawyer, an I am sure we both know enough people that can barely follow simple instructions).


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## SG854 (Nov 17, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> Another day, another    notimp Nothereed thread wherein apparently more than half the population could conceivably support unmitigated evil (this despite all politicians proving themselves incompetent and corrupt on the regular) but might as well play.
> 
> The better solution is to reduce the amounts guaranteed by the loans.
> 
> ...



Doesn't the cost argument also considers HS? Yet we still pay for HS through taxes. If cost was an issue then why don't we stop funding Middle School and High School through our taxes? Why stop at college?


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## Marc_LFD (Nov 17, 2022)

Good.

They agreed to that debt, so they pay it. If I made a debt, would I expect someone else to pay? No.


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## EldritchPenumbra (Nov 17, 2022)

I wonder why it is that colleges are not more competitive with one another in regards to pricing? Also, while there are grants galore to be used as an alternative to a government loans, I wonder why it is that you can't take your courses at University then pay the University back after you have graduated and began making your new life...
...unless they are not confident that what they are selling will actually benefit you in the long run and not just leave you stuck with a bill. I know the trade school I attended at the end of high school helped to find us jobs when we graduated, do colleges do that? Also, since college books are so disposable,  why not print the text books as paper bound leaflets and books instead, since there is no logical reason to preserve an ever updated text in hard back. On that note I noticed a lot of college libraries suck as they tend to stick with what's popular at the time, rather than seasoned literature, such as James Billington's, Fire in the Minds of Men: The Origins of Revolutionary Faith. He was once the lead librarian of the Library of Congress, and by far laid down history better for me than so many of the school text books I was forced to read growing up, be that High School, Trade School, or my short time in College. Lastly, who decides what is to be honored as a Degree and what is not? What committee decides this, who appointed them, and at what point in history did a degree become more important than something like demonstrable skills?


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## SG854 (Nov 17, 2022)

Marc_LFD said:


> Good.
> 
> They agreed to that debt, so they pay it. If I made a debt, would I expect someone else to pay? No.


With that logic we should make parents pay for Elementary School, Middle School, High School. Incur debt for trying to get an education for their children then force parents to pay for enormous amount of debt. So we can stay consistent with how we handle college.


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## Marc_LFD (Nov 17, 2022)

SG854 said:


> With that logic we should make parents pay for Elementary School, Middle School, High School. Incur debt for trying to get an education for their children then force parents to pay for enormous amount of debt. So we can stay consistent with how we handle college.


Your comparison is illogical.

They do that because they are their parents, their carers, their guardians, so they care about their future and they want them to succeed for a prosper future.

You know, much as I like my nephew and niece, I'm not paying anything for them since I'm not their parent -- That's their parents job. I could, if I wanted to, but I don't.


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## SG854 (Nov 17, 2022)

Marc_LFD said:


> Your comparison is illogical.
> 
> They do that because they are their parents, their carers, their guardians, so they care about their future and they want them to succeed for a prosper future.
> 
> You know, much as I like my nephew and niece, I'm not paying anything for them since I'm not their parent -- That's their parents job. I could, if I wanted to, but I don't.


You are paying for your nephews elementary school education and high school education through your taxes.


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## Marc_LFD (Nov 17, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Forgiving debt is unfair towards those whose debt is not forgiven.


Lemme just make a million dollar debt and ask for someone else to pay... Nah, that ain't right.



SG854 said:


> You are paying for your nephews elementary school education and high school education through your taxes.


Yes, thru tax, but not giving them directly. Odd comparison again.


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## SG854 (Nov 17, 2022)

Marc_LFD said:


> Lemme just make a million dollar debt and ask for someone else to pay... Nah, that ain't right.
> 
> 
> Yes, thru tax, but not giving them directly. Odd comparison again.


And you can pay for college debt relief through your taxes. It's not giving them directly. Like you said.


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## Marc_LFD (Nov 17, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> What a pro family move.


You think being "pro-family" means paying a family member's debt?  If it's a parent then it's entirely possible they agree to that debt, but a brother, daughter, uncle, aunt, grandpa, grandma, etc? No.

They could do it out of generosity, though that's different. We're not talking about being generous.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 17, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Doesn't the cost argument also considers HS? Yet we still pay for HS through Government Programs. If cost was an issue then why don't we stop finding Middle School and High School through our taxes? Why stop at college?


Point of diminishing returns is the question. 
If contemplating thinking as a government then does forcing a larger and larger chunk of the population through university (assuming they even can, see previous post for more there as it might not be the case that they can even hack it) make for more tax revenues, more entrepreneurship (my UK student loans are as nothing compared to the US so I was free to go self employed where and when I like, rather bigger ask if you have loans that gots to be paid else they make life really hard the moment you get out), less citizens blowing their brains out (at least before they start to draw a pension), more citizens having children (fertility rate of university educated women being among the lowest anywhere), less need to import skilled foreign workers, less need to offshore valuable businesses, more able to defend the country (if some other power has the keys to your superweapons as they make the vital aspects...) or various other concerns there a country might have that are usually variations on that.

No high school usually means you are a useless burden on society, however it seems there are plenty of alternatives to universities (whose general goal by the looks of things is to make more academics, training people for the real world is almost a happy accident).

We do also have numbers from this experiment as well. Home ownership, savings rates, retirement affordability projections, mental illness rates (including deaths of despair), fertility rates and more. Now you would have to back off various other factors in that as a bunch of other things have changed during that but still enough there to ponder.

This is also somewhat immaterial to the matter at hand of should loan relief be given and thus paid for by those that never went, the rich that don't dodge taxes where they can, or went and actually were productive enough with the results that they do not qualify for this. If it was sold under a false premise (hard to get to illegal actions there, slimy as all fuck don't get me wrong getting the moronic 18 year olds to sign up with the tactics used. Hardly OMG you were Japanese 4 generations go into the internment camp that we normally look to such things to handouts for), is likely to make enough difference in the metrics noted above that things are worth doing (the money required to make those that went in for the bad degrees or were just unlucky or suitably lazy are not suddenly going to buy houses, make new businesses, shoot out a bunch of kids, decide not shoot at a bunch of kids in the mall, take the needle out of their arm or such would probably be considerable)




EldritchPenumbra said:


> I wonder why it is that colleges are not more competitive with one another in regards to pricing? Also, while there are grants galore to be used as an alternative to a government loans, I wonder why it is that you can't take your courses at University then pay the University back after you have graduated and began making your new life...
> ...unless they are not confident that what they are selling will actually benefit you in the long run and not just leave you stuck with a bill. I know the trade school I attended at the end of high school helped to find us jobs when we graduated, do colleges do that? Also, since college books are so disposable,  why not print the text books as paper bound leaflets and books instead, since there is no logical reason to preserve an ever updated text in hard back. On that note I noticed a lot of college libraries suck as they tend to stick with what's popular at the time, rather than seasoned literature, such as James Billington's, Fire in the Minds of Men: The Origins of Revolutionary Faith. He was once the lead librarian of the Library of Congress, and by far laid down history better for me than so many of the school text books I was forced to read growing up, be that High School, Trade School, or my short time in College. Lastly, who decides what is to be honored as a Degree and what is not? What committee decides this, who appointed them, and at what point in history did a degree become more important than something like demonstrable skills?


Universities do have career days, assistance in finding things and the like. They are usually about as useless as your high school career guidance.

As far as paid back afterwards then there are also those that pay a percentage of their salary for life instead.

On demonstrable skills vs piece of paper then historically it was a thing (see guilds, indeed those setting the standards for degrees in STEM often are the same as award), and still is -- doctors/medics have to show skills in practical world, a law degree is worth nothing compared to passing the bar, chartered engineer/steel ring vs not is a bit more debatable depending upon where you are in the world but could still be a thing of note in this, computing is likely as not to care more about your github/stack exchange account, and the perennial "needs experience" thing is also one to ponder.

Textbooks seems to be a unique thing to the US as well, though I know you were just being coy there. All the books I got in university I still reference.


----------



## elrayo (Nov 17, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> I could study the history of Street Fighter. Why should society pay for that? Child education is a human right, not adult education.


Are you really comparing a random info about something that's not needed to survive in this society? Your logic makes no sense


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## smf (Nov 17, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> In theory, judges should act independently, regardless of politics.


If that was true, then you would not have the president appoint them.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Nov 17, 2022)

elrayo said:


> Are you really comparing a random info about something that's not needed to survive in this society? Your logic makes no sense


But gender studies are needed? Fictional literature is not needed either (e.g. Shakespeare). If society needs sth, there are scholarships. Those who studied sth useful, do not need debt forgiveness. Why reward bad decisions like studying the history of Street Fighter? It encourages more bad decisions.


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## SG854 (Nov 18, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> But gender studies are needed? Fictional literature is not needed either (e.g. Shakespeare). If society needs sth, there are scholarships. Those who studied sth useful, do not need debt forgiveness. Why reward bad decisions like studying the history of Street Fighter? It encourages more bad decisions.


Yes because every single class taught in college is a gender studies class .

Kinda weird how the person mentioned that college should be a human right, basically them meaning something funded by our tax dollars, and for your counter argument you went straight to focus on gender studies/fictional literature as your main rebbuttle, thinking it's a good argument, without representing all of the classes colleges teaches, like STEM, in your argument.

Well I don't like them gender study classes so fuck them stem learners. Basically is what your argument boils down to.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 18, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Yes because every single class taught in college is a gender studies class .
> 
> Kinda weird how the person mentioned that college should be a human right, basically them meaning something funded by our tax dollars, and for your counter argument you went straight to focus on gender studies/fictional literature as your main rebbuttle, thinking it's a good argument, without representing all of the classes colleges teaches, like STEM, in your argument.
> 
> Well I don't like them gender study classes so fuck them stem learners. Basically is what your argument boils down to.



i'll be a more useful member of society with knowledge and understanding of how to undergo critical thinking rather than a layabout perpetuating a hellish cycle of poverty and repetance throughout my family for generations for a crime i did not commit how am i supposed to republican logic my way through life then?


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## TraderPatTX (Nov 18, 2022)

I say make the universities back all student loans. They need skin in the game too. Harvard's endowment fund is worth more than $50 billion dollars that they do not even pay taxes on. If the left were sincere about protecting the poor instead of being the corporate whores that they are, this would be something everybody could agree on. There is no reason why universities should be offering substandard degrees that lead young adults to be Starbuck's baristas with $100k of debt that they can't even discharge in a bankruptcy.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Nov 18, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Yes because every single class taught in college is a gender studies class .
> 
> Kinda weird how the person mentioned that college should be a human right, basically them meaning something funded by our tax dollars, and for your counter argument you went straight to focus on gender studies/fictional literature as your main rebbuttle, thinking it's a good argument, without representing all of the classes colleges teaches, like STEM, in your argument.
> 
> Well I don't like them gender study classes so fuck them stem learners. Basically is what your argument boils down to.


You are misrepresenting me.
-I didn´t say it should be a human right (merely that it is)
-I differentiated between child and adult education (an adult is responsible for his or her decisions)
-I specifically made the destinction between useful and useless studies. STEM certainly belongs to the former.
-Also, I have not used "them" instead of "those". F off.

Four misrepresentations in one short paragraph. You must be a gender studies major.


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## elrayo (Nov 18, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> But gender studies are needed? Fictional literature is not needed either (e.g. Shakespeare). If society needs sth, there are scholarships. Those who studied sth useful, do not need debt forgiveness. Why reward bad decisions like studying the history of Street Fighter? It encourages more bad decisions.


Yes they're needed for fuck's sake. Do you even go to college? Humanities scholars are always investigating about social phenomenoms in every field, and gender is one of the most discussed studies in society. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, but I'm not surprised comming from someone that thinks educations is a consumption good.


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## TraderPatTX (Nov 18, 2022)

elrayo said:


> Yes they're needed for fuck's sake. Do you even go to college? Humanities scholars are always investigating about social phenomenoms in every field, and gender is one of the most discussed studies in society. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, but I'm not surprised comming from someone that thinks educations is a consumption good.


What kind of job can one get with a Bachelor's in Humanities or gender studies and what is the average salary? Is it possible to make enough to pay back the $100k in student loans in a lifetime?

I'm not saying that studying humanities or gender studies is not important, just that getting a degree in it is worthless.

I don't think people need to pay to study many topics that they cover in universities. These worthless degrees are just ways for universities to make more money off of lower income people who can't make it in the STEM fields. 

We all have access to the world's knowledge almost for free and can study our hobbies in our free time.


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## SG854 (Nov 18, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You are misrepresenting me.
> -I didn´t say it should be a human right (merely that it is)


You said this

"I could study the history of Street Fighter. Why should society pay for that? Child education is a human right, not adult education."

What were you just stating a fact just because? Just to mention it without any reason for your argument? Or any reason to support your argument.

I just like to state random facts for my argument for no reason.

Stop pretending you were just stating it mearly just because..




UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -I differentiated between child and adult education (an adult is responsible for his or her decisions)


I don't see why helping adults is bad in anyway. Do you know the reason. Can you give me a good reason why it's bad to help them, just because they are adults isn't a good reason. And, adults should pay for their own shit without any help because they are adults and should be required to take care of themselves, isn't a good reason either. Even adults need help. Obviously.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> -I specifically made the destinction between useful and useless studies. STEM certainly belongs to the former.


You did not make that distinction

You said "child education is a human right, not adult education." STEM fields are also taught in adult education. So basically you are saying no debt relief for STEM education aswell.

You consider them useful education yet you do not want debt relief for college STEM classes. So does it matter if you find it useful or not useful if you believe both STEM and gender studies should not get debt relief. Why even bring up a distinction at all if you were going to treat both the same, no funding for both.


Why even bring up gender studies at all in this topic and as a rebuttal to the other person if that wasn't the main reason to you that it shouldn't receive debt relief. If, "adults should should pay for their own shit," was you main reason to start with. And then act like the distinction has any significance in your argument. Acting like it'll completely change your argument. It doesn't.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> You are misrepresenting me.
> -Also, I have not used "them" instead of "those". F off.


Does it matter if I say them or those. You are just arguing semantics here just to make it seem like I'm misrepresenting you.


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## sombrerosonic (Nov 18, 2022)

Wasn't the student-debt relief only going to people in power like senators and not like..... to people in collage? just asking


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## elrayo (Nov 18, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> What kind of job can one get with a Bachelor's in Humanities or gender studies and what is the average salary? Is it possible to make enough to pay back the $100k in student loans in a lifetime?
> 
> I'm not saying that studying humanities or gender studies is not important, just that getting a degree in it is worthless.
> 
> ...


While it's true that you have it easier to find a job if you study technical stuff (like in most engineering careers) humanities are often required in big companies to ensure a good discourse analyzis/society studies that are needed to take decisions. 

Overall, gender studies are required in the school/college field, so a lot of professionals go for that route. Big companies are always searching for people with studies related to humanities too, and while it's hard to land a job, the payment is good enough or at least over the minimum salary.

I also agree that people shouldn't pay to study many topics, and a lot of degrees in humanities should be shortened to less years, but this matter also has an economic/politic reason to not be applied (supersaturation of people with degrees for example) so you're right about that.

Also, even though you can learn a lot of stuff in the internet, that doesn't mean big companies will hire you. This is an stupid reality but if you have a degree you'll get A LOT more interviews compared to someone that only has knowledge, experience in some field or even studied the same career but in a "worse" university than you. The world of workforce is super discriminatory in this regard.

Contacts play a huge role too. I've met a lot of engineers that can't land a job and people with a Humanities degree who land a job inmediatly after getting out of college, just because his/her "uncle" had a company with a free vacant in an specific area, which not necessarily needs to be related to the degree. 

To be honest, nepotism is a bigger problem compared to where/what to study IMO


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Nov 19, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Stop pretending you were just stating it mearly just because..


Because you believe in human rights (I don´t). I could quote the Bible to a Christian to counter his argument. I am not pretending.


SG854 said:


> I don't see why helping adults is bad in anyway. Do you know the reason. Can you give me a good reason why it's bad to help them, just because they are adults isn't a good reason. And, adults should pay for their own shit without any help because they are adults and should be required to take care of themselves, isn't a good reason either. Even adults need help. Obviously.


Because other adults have to pay for it. Society does not owe you a bailout if you have studied sth that is not useful. We physically force children to sit in classrooms 5 days a week. It is therefore different.



SG854 said:


> You did not make that distinction
> 
> You said "child education is a human right, not adult education." STEM fields are also taught in adult education. So basically you are saying no debt relief for STEM education aswell.


If you have studied STEM and are unable to pay back your debt, you are doing something wrong. In that case, I would be against debt relief. Society (be it companies or the government) often provide scholarships in STEM.


SG854 said:


> You consider them useful education yet you do not want debt relief for college STEM classes.


Because they are useful, they do not need debt relief.


SG854 said:


> Does it matter if I say them or those. You are just arguing semantics here just to make it seem like I'm misrepresenting you.


You tried to make me sound like a hillbilly. Or are you using "them" instead of "those"?


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## Hanafuda (Nov 19, 2022)

You guys are just arguing whether this student loan forgiveness gimmick was good social policy, justified, morally right, and etc. And probably cheering or demonizing the judge depending on your opinions about all that. But nobody's discussing whether such a program was within the executive branch's Constitutional authority, or if alternatively it's something that would have to be passed as legislation by Congress. But that's what the case was about, i.e. the lawyers submitted arguments on that issue, and the judge decided the case on that issue. Not whether it's a good idea or not, but whether it's something the President can even do.


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## Nothereed (Nov 19, 2022)

Hanafuda said:


> But nobody's discussing whether such a program was within the executive branch's Constitutional authority, or if alternatively it's something that would have to be passed as legislation by Congress.


"The Department of Education has tackled so much student debt already because Congress gave it a number of tools to do so. One of those tools is the Heroes Act, passed in the wake of 9/11. This law gives the secretary of education authority to “waive or modify” any provision of the law applicable to student aid programs “in connection with a war or other military operation _or national emergency_.” (Emphasis mine.) The secretary may exercise this power to “ensure” that borrowers “are not placed in a worse position financially” in relation to their loans because they were “affected” by the emergency. A “national emergency” is defined as any national emergency declared by the president. The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic surely qualifies, since Donald Trump declared it a national emergency and Biden has extended that declaration."

Trump also used the same deceleration, to appropriate funds else where, and also used it to do his own (arguably) less constitutional shit.

I find it rather convenient that your only now talking about "But you need to think of what the precedent it sets" when the Republican Party started it. And now suddenly, when playing by the same rules they've (Republican Party) set, you whine.


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## Hanafuda (Nov 19, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> "The Department of Education has tackled so much student debt already because Congress gave it a number of tools to do so. One of those tools is the Heroes Act, passed in the wake of 9/11. This law gives the secretary of education authority to “waive or modify” any provision of the law applicable to student aid programs “in connection with a war or other military operation _or national emergency_.” (Emphasis mine.) The secretary may exercise this power to “ensure” that borrowers “are not placed in a worse position financially” in relation to their loans because they were “affected” by the emergency. A “national emergency” is defined as any national emergency declared by the president. The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic surely qualifies, since Donald Trump declared it a national emergency and Biden has extended that declaration."
> 
> Trump also used the same deceleration, to appropriate funds else where, and also used it to do his own (arguably) less constitutional shit.
> 
> I find it rather convenient that your only now talking about "But you need to think of what the precedent it sets" when the Republican Party started it. And now suddenly, when playing by the same rules they've (Republican Party) set, you whine.



I assume that's how they froze repayments, so borrowers would not be "placed in a worse position financially." Nobody has had to pay on those loans for over two and a half years now. Your truly included. And I'm not whining ... I signed up for it (the loan forgiveness). I'd have been a fool not to. But I also saw it for the 'bread and circuses' gimmick for the midterms that it was, and nothing about this surprises me at all. Like I asked above ... if the Federal government was so concerned about students being saddled with loans, why are they still issuing them? My daughter's a freshman and sure enough, got Federal student loans to help pay. Shouldn't it have been a grant, not a loan, if they were really sincere about this?


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## TraderPatTX (Nov 25, 2022)

elrayo said:


> While it's true that you have it easier to find a job if you study technical stuff (like in most engineering careers) humanities are often required in big companies to ensure a good discourse analyzis/society studies that are needed to take decisions.


Those jobs are not in high demand. If a degree in the humanities was really worth $100k+, the salary would reflect that.


elrayo said:


> Overall, gender studies are required in the school/college field, so a lot of professionals go for that route. Big companies are always searching for people with studies related to humanities too, and while it's hard to land a job, the payment is good enough or at least over the minimum salary.


Obviously not if humanities graduates can't earn enough to pay back their loans.


elrayo said:


> I also agree that people shouldn't pay to study many topics, and a lot of degrees in humanities should be shortened to less years, but this matter also has an economic/politic reason to not be applied (supersaturation of people with degrees for example) so you're right about that.


Law of supply and demand. I'm so glad somebody here gets it.


elrayo said:


> Also, even though you can learn a lot of stuff in the internet, that doesn't mean big companies will hire you. This is an stupid reality but if you have a degree you'll get A LOT more interviews compared to someone that only has knowledge, experience in some field or even studied the same career but in a "worse" university than you. The world of workforce is super discriminatory in this regard.


Not really. If you know a trade, you can get hired. I'm a network engineer. I've gotten jobs with and without a degree based on experience.


elrayo said:


> Contacts play a huge role too. I've met a lot of engineers that can't land a job and people with a Humanities degree who land a job inmediatly after getting out of college, just because his/her "uncle" had a company with a free vacant in an specific area, which not necessarily needs to be related to the degree.


You just proved having a degree is not the be all end all.


elrayo said:


> To be honest, nepotism is a bigger problem compared to where/what to study IMO


In my almost 30 year career, I've only run into nepotism maybe a few times. People need to realize that not every job they apply to is meant for them. I've been turned down numerous times and I never whined about it. This is what happens when the "Everybody Gets a Trophy" generation go out into the workforce. Get over it and move on.

Thank you for a very reasoned response. I enjoyed actually reading it and responding to it.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> In my almost 30 year career



everything makes so much fucking sense now


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## TraderPatTX (Nov 25, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> everything makes so much fucking sense now


Apparently not enough sense for you to present a reasoned argument or even a coherent comment. 

Maybe you'd like to delve into the shitting habits of this judge? That seems to be more your speed.


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## Jayro (Nov 25, 2022)

The government just needs to step in, and strongarm colleges to lower their tuition by about 95%. You'd be shocked to find out how much of your student loan money just goes to line their pockets. And with most schooling transitioning to online work courses, the high cost of digital college books is absolutely 100% a scam designed to make you go broke.


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## TraderPatTX (Nov 25, 2022)

Jayro said:


> The government just needs to step in, and strongarm colleges to lower their tuition by about 95%. You'd be shocked to find out how much of your student loan money just goes to line their pockets. And with most schooling transitioning to online work courses, the high cost of digital college books is absolutely 100% a scam designed to make you go broke.


I don't think the words government and strongarm should ever be used in a sentence together and presented as a solution. Comes across as a little fascist and authoritarian, even though I do agree with your general idea.

Universities are sitting on billions of dollars in tax free endowments. They should be the ones backing these loans for their services, not the taxpayer. Once they have skin in the game, they would immediate stop offering $120k degrees for $40k salary jobs.

I just don't understand why the left keeps wanting to protect universities when they don't even pay taxes. It's almost like they don't even believe the crap they say. Same can be said of the corporate media and Big Pharma who also do not pay taxes.


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## Jayro (Nov 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I don't think the words government and strongarm should ever be used in a sentence together and presented as a solution. Comes across as a little fascist and authoritarian, even though I do agree with your general idea.
> 
> Universities are sitting on billions of dollars in tax free endowments. They should be the ones backing these loans for their services, not the taxpayer. Once they have skin in the game, they would immediate stop offering $120k degrees for $40k salary jobs.
> 
> I just don't understand why the left keeps wanting to protect universities when they don't even pay taxes. It's almost like they don't even believe the crap they say. Same can be said of the corporate media and Big Pharma who also do not pay taxes.


I don't believe in protecting universities at all, they're scam artists.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 28, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Apparently not enough sense for you to present a reasoned argument or even a coherent comment.
> 
> Maybe you'd like to delve into the shitting habits of this judge? That seems to be more your speed.


it became so obvious to me in that single statement why you adamantly refused to talk about the shitting habits of old people.  i get not wanting to reveal something about your demographic, old timer.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 28, 2022)

Jayro said:


> The government just needs to step in, and strongarm colleges to lower their tuition by about 95%. You'd be shocked to find out how much of your student loan money just goes to line their pockets. And with most schooling transitioning to online work courses, the high cost of digital college books is absolutely 100% a scam designed to make you go broke.


They don't need to strongarm colleges and universities (not generally a great look to interfere in the free market, even more so after China just killed private education as that invites some unpleasant comparisons). In fact they need to do even less than they already do and drop the amount they guarantee and possibly lessen the quite insane protections they have (though I can see a debate there). If a college is guaranteed to get back so much from them then they can price it right up to the line, and probably a bit more too (some will inevitably pay some back so you can assume a tiny bit of risk there). You can even watch the price rises fall in line with the limit rises of various things.
At that point they only accept those in that they can be sure will do well, the rich families (which were never troubled anyway) rather than anyone with a pulse that may fail out, be given a worthless bit of paper, skip those that might be served better by doing a less demanding field rather than cramming them ultimately through at a cost to them, drop prices to be more competitive...


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## sombrerosonic (Nov 28, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> it became so obvious to me in that single statement why you adamantly refused to talk about the shitting habits of old people.  i get not wanting to reveal something about your demographic, old timer.


Stuffing for roast chicken


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## Jayro (Nov 28, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> They don't need to strongarm colleges and universities (not generally a great look to interfere in the free market, even more so after China just killed private education as that invites some unpleasant comparisons). In fact they need to do even less than they already do and drop the amount they guarantee and possibly lessen the quite insane protections they have (though I can see a debate there). If a college is guaranteed to get back so much from them then they can price it right up to the line, and probably a bit more too (some will inevitably pay some back so you can assume a tiny bit of risk there). You can even watch the price rises fall in line with the limit rises of various things.
> At that point they only accept those in that they can be sure will do well, the rich families (which were never troubled anyway) rather than anyone with a pulse that may fail out, be given a worthless bit of paper, skip those that might be served better by doing a less demanding field rather than cramming them ultimately through at a cost to them, drop prices to be more competitive...


College is free in most other developed countries, so you're not making a very good selling point.


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## TraderPatTX (Nov 29, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> it became so obvious to me in that single statement why you adamantly refused to talk about the shitting habits of old people.  i get not wanting to reveal something about your demographic, old timer.


Cry more, CommanderFool.

	Post automatically merged: Nov 29, 2022



Jayro said:


> College is free in most other developed countries, so you're not making a very good selling point.


The only way college can be free is if the professors and the university staff are all slaves.

What you meant to say is that the cost of college is hidden from the public and they make billions off the taxpayers. Billions that could be used to house the homeless, feed starving children or to give to Ukraine.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Cry more, CommanderFool.



that was your scathing comeback?  jesus man you really are a product of your generation.


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## Jayro (Nov 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Cry more, CommanderFool.
> 
> Post automatically merged: Nov 29, 2022
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, because our homeless people and starving children are SOOOOOOOO well-off right now. 
Pull your head out of your ass, please.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 29, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Oh yeah, because our homeless people and starving children are SOOOOOOOO well-off right now.
> Pull your head out of your ass, please.


he's TraderPatTX, a guy who's too old to learn his lesson and posts on forums to try and seem bigger than his "30 year career" has given him.


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## TraderPatTX (Nov 29, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Oh yeah, because our homeless people and starving children are SOOOOOOOO well-off right now.
> Pull your head out of your ass, please.


So we are in agreement that college is not free in other countries? I noticed you skipped that part of my comment all together.

	Post automatically merged: Nov 29, 2022



CommanderCool said:


> he's TraderPatTX, a guy who's too old to learn his lesson and posts on forums to try and seem bigger than his "30 year career" has given him.


I have no problems learning my "lesson", it's just that you do not have the knowledge or experience to teach anybody anything.


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## sombrerosonic (Nov 29, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> he's TraderPatTX, a guy who's too old to learn his lesson and posts on forums to try and seem bigger than his "30 year career" has given him.


Dude all you talk about is old people's shitting habits. Maybe make an actual argument?


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## Jayro (Nov 29, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So we are in agreement that college is not free in other countries? I noticed you skipped that part of my comment all together.


I don't always respond to every talking point at the same time. But yes, if we in the U.S.A. were to be like other countries, then we all pay into the pot (with taxes), and reap what we sow ("free" college (that we already pay into)) from it. Just like we do with public education. We just need to expand public education to include college. That's it. Everyone benefits, and there's no down-sides.

"Free college? REEEEEEE!!!!! B-b-but what about those who already paid off their student loans?"

Uh, Good for them I guess..?


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## sombrerosonic (Nov 29, 2022)

Jayro said:


> I don't always respond to every talking point at the same time. But yes, if we in the U.S.A. were to be like other countries, then we all pay into the pot (with taxes), and reap what we sow ("free" college (that we already pay into)) from it. Just like we do with public education. We just need to expand public education to include college. That's it. Everyone benefits, and there's no down-sides.
> 
> "Free college? REEEEEEE!!!!! B-b-but what about those who already paid off their student loans?"
> 
> Uh, Good for them I guess..?


Honestly i think we should give more funding to public education as man..... teachers really dont have alot to teach with, maybe more money into the school system would help out more people if im not wrong. Maybe take a mark from some states and make free lunch a permanent in it all public schools?


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## Jayro (Nov 29, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Honestly i think we should give more funding to public education as man..... teachers really dont have alot to teach with, maybe more money into the school system would help out more people if im not wrong. Maybe take a mark from some states and make free lunch a permanent in it all public schools?


I agree on all fronts.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 30, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Dude all you talk about is old people's shitting habits. Maybe make an actual argument?


ok but you nor anyone else answered about mitch mcconnell's shitting habits.


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## Valwinz (Nov 30, 2022)

is very interesting that this happen after he got the votes he needed to not get destroyed in the midterms it really makes you think. anyone with a brain knew it was unconstitutional since day 1


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## sombrerosonic (Nov 30, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> ok but you nor anyone else answered about mitch mcconnell's shitting habits.


I dont think anyone wants to know about that nor is there anything about it.


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## CommanderCool (Nov 30, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> I dont think anyone wants to know about that nor is there anything about it.


i do want to know.  stop pretending nobody cares.


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## sombrerosonic (Nov 30, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> i do want to know.  stop pretending nobody cares.


maybe do some independent research and find out on your own. you may find something interesting


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## Viri (Nov 30, 2022)

Valwinz said:


> is very interesting that this happen after he got the votes he needed to not get destroyed in the midterms it really makes you think. anyone with a brain knew it was unconstitutional since day 1
> View attachment 340755


Hopefully for the Presidential election, they make stimulus check promises again, and actually give us the full amount this time. They gave us 1.4k instead of 2k, and tried to gaslight us into being bad at math.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 6, 2022)

Jayro said:


> I don't always respond to every talking point at the same time. But yes, if we in the U.S.A. were to be like other countries, then we all pay into the pot (with taxes), and reap what we sow ("free" college (that we already pay into)) from it. Just like we do with public education. We just need to expand public education to include college. That's it. Everyone benefits, and there's no down-sides.
> 
> "Free college? REEEEEEE!!!!! B-b-but what about those who already paid off their student loans?"
> 
> Uh, Good for them I guess..?


So you basically want poor people to pay for college degrees for upper middle class people. I'd love to see you try to sell that.


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## CommanderCool (Dec 6, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So you basically want poor people to pay for college degrees for upper middle class people. I'd love to see you try to sell that.



there's been a solution for years in regards to taxation going towards the other end, but every time that anyone brings up anything left of Mussolini you worthless old people cry "socialism" like it's a chant that will bring joseph mccarthy back from his spot in hell.


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## Jayro (Dec 6, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> there's been a solution for years in regards to taxation going towards the other end, but every time that anyone brings up anything left of Mussolini you worthless old people cry "socialism" like it's a chant that will bring joseph mccarthy back from his spot in hell.


I honestly just wish conservatism would die across the world, because that way of life is SHITTY.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 6, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> there's been a solution for years in regards to taxation going towards the other end, but every time that anyone brings up anything left of Mussolini you worthless old people cry "socialism" like it's a chant that will bring joseph mccarthy back from his spot in hell.


I've brought up just exempting the bottom 50% from taxation altogether. If you really cared about poor people, stop taxing them. But the leftists around here balked at that idea. So I know you are not serious about helping poor people. You are as fake as the news you read.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 6, 2022



Jayro said:


> I honestly just wish conservatism would die across the world, because that way of life is SHITTY.


So you want only one ideology in this world? Hmm... interesting. Hitler had the same plan. It's fascinating how fascism always seems to come from the left while accusing the right of something you yourself are guilty of.

When you are done gaslighting and projecting, maybe we can have a debate on your ideas. I'd be interested to see what you have to say.


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## Osakasan (Dec 6, 2022)

Marc_LFD said:


> Good.
> 
> They agreed to that debt, so they pay it. If I made a debt, would I expect someone else to pay? No.


This is hilarious

They didn't agree to it, THEY HAD NO CHOICE

A forced debt to make military an attractive option for desesperate youths. Literal evil.

They didn't need to get in debt, nothing in the american education system explains why students need to take a loan, nothing guarantees the system is as good as to justify getting hundreds of dollars of debt.

The egoism and ignorance in this thread is mind blowing. Jesus fucking christ what the fuck is wrong with you all people?

Instead of celebrating this fuckign shit because you had to pay your debt so current and next generations have to do it too, fucking fight so the next generations don't have to go through what you did.

Take your fucking head out of your fucking ass


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## sombrerosonic (Dec 6, 2022)

Wasn't the debt relief ONLY for people who work with the government and not for people like me and you? 

https://studentaid.gov/debt-relief-announcement seems to give some insite on the page


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## CommanderCool (Dec 6, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I've brought up just exempting the bottom 50% from taxation altogether. If you really cared about poor people, stop taxing them. But the leftists around here balked at that idea. So I know you are not serious about helping poor people. You are as fake as the news you read.
> 
> Post automatically merged: Dec 6, 2022
> 
> ...



exempting the bottom 50% would lead to a rise in tall poppy syndrome as well as create an imbalance the overall economic structure where a more robust solution would be more fitting.  nobody spoke of a one-world ideology.  conservatism being gone doesn't mean that there's only one ideology left; people have a spectrum of ideas which exist beyond the two-system label.  fascism was a product of conservatism reaching its logical extreme.

i've seen some retarded posters on here, but you are the crowning geriatric example who is so desperate to get back on the short bus that you have to make an example of it every time you post.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 7, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> exempting the bottom 50% would lead to a rise in tall poppy syndrome as well as create an imbalance the overall economic structure where a more robust solution would be more fitting.


So you want to continue taxing poor people and force them to pay for degrees for upper middle class students. I knew the left hated poor people but damn dude. That's a lot of hate.


CommanderCool said:


> nobody spoke of a one-world ideology.  conservatism being gone doesn't mean that there's only one ideology left; people have a spectrum of ideas which exist beyond the two-system label.  fascism was a product of conservatism reaching its logical extreme.


There is nothing right wing about fascism. The belief in authoritarianism is left wing.





CommanderCool said:


> i've seen some retarded posters on here, but you are the crowning geriatric example who is so desperate to get back on the short bus that you have to make an example of it every time you post.


You sure do project a lot for a braindead kid with zero life experience.


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## CommanderCool (Dec 7, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So you want to continue taxing poor people and force them to pay for degrees for upper middle class students. I knew the left hated poor people but damn dude. That's a lot of hate.
> 
> There is nothing right wing about fascism. The belief in authoritarianism is left wing.View attachment 341785
> 
> You sure do project a lot for a braindead kid with zero life experience.


so your counterpoints are "we have to create a linear economic solution", "i found this image on the internet with absolutely no conflation whatsoever to the findings of both political scientists and actual definitions", and "no u", then accuse me of projecting.

i knew republicans are retarded, but hey!  there's still hope for you, you extra chromosome little geriatric claiming "life experience"


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 7, 2022)

CommanderCool said:


> so your counterpoints are "we have to create a linear economic solution", "i found this image on the internet with absolutely no conflation whatsoever to the findings of both political scientists and actual definitions", and "no u", then accuse me of projecting.


Where's the lie in the image? I notice you didn't point anything out.


CommanderCool said:


> i knew republicans are retarded, but hey!  there's still hope for you, you extra chromosome little geriatric claiming "life experience"


The grammar is so bad, I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here. You're starting to sound like the Resident whenever he babbles.


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## pustal (Dec 7, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So you want to continue taxing poor people and force them to pay for degrees for upper middle class students. I knew the left hated poor people but damn dude. That's a lot of hate.
> 
> There is nothing right wing about fascism. The belief in authoritarianism is left wing.View attachment 341785
> 
> You sure do project a lot for a braindead kid with zero life experience.


Hey look guys, I can also put a totally otherist bad faith argument image comparing to Nazis too:





Is this a meme now?


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 7, 2022)

pustal said:


> Hey look guys, I can also put a totally otherist bad faith argument image comparing to Nazis too:
> 
> View attachment 341789
> 
> Is this a meme now?


Looks like my meme hurt someone's feelings. Must have hit too close to home.


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## CommanderCool (Dec 7, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Looks like my meme hurt someone's feelings. Must have hit too close to home.View attachment 341791


you're so predictable.  "i made someone mad that makes me feel really good about myself!  here's some more misinformation!"

your linear way of thinking provides no originality.  you were a source of my entertainment for like...a few weeks.  now you're just dull.  i was expecting some diversity in your limited thought processes or something, but you're just another boomer regurgitating facebook memes rather than factual information.


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## Benja81 (Dec 7, 2022)

Such a _big surprise_ that the side who is always crying wolf about heavy handed tactics strikes down a lawful order based on a partisan agenda.


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## pustal (Dec 7, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Looks like my meme hurt someone's feelings. Must have hit too close to home.View attachment 341791



Or not at all. I live in other side of the ocean, buddy, I vote for nobody in the US. But that doesn't stop me from smelling crap and laugh at the ridiculous propaganda from thousands of miles away.


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 7, 2022)

pustal said:


> Or not at all. I live in other side of the ocean, buddy, I vote for nobody in the US. But that doesn't stop me from smelling crap and laugh at the ridiculous propaganda from thousands of miles away.


You just can't refute it.

	Post automatically merged: Dec 7, 2022



Benja81 said:


> Such a _big surprise_ that the side who is always crying wolf about heavy handed tactics strikes down a lawful order based on a partisan agenda.


It wasn't proven that the president has this kind of authority. Maybe try going through Congress and passing a law?


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## pustal (Dec 7, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You just can't refute it.
> 
> Post automatically merged: Dec 7, 2022
> 
> ...



Can't I prove what? That I'm all that way overseas or that foreign nationals can't vote on the US elections? Is that how far the rabbit whole you are?

Also, can you prove me you are not a Russian distabilizer?


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## sombrerosonic (Dec 7, 2022)

I guess were back to agueing huh, yall want me back in to Spin the wheel of side i choose?


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## TraderPatTX (Dec 7, 2022)

pustal said:


> Can't I prove what? That I'm all that way overseas or that foreign nationals can't vote on the US elections? Is that how far the rabbit whole you are?


You can start with the "ridiculous propaganda" that you seem to have forgotten.


pustal said:


> Also, can you prove me you are not a Russian distabilizer?


But I am a Russian distabilizer. You just have to prove it.


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## Hanafuda (Dec 7, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Wasn't the debt relief ONLY for people who work with the government and not for people like me and you?
> 
> https://studentaid.gov/debt-relief-announcement seems to give some insite on the page



No the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program has been around for years and was enacted by Congress. That's the difference with Biden's executive order election gimmick. It wasn't run through the legislative branch.


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## pustal (Dec 7, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You can start with the "ridiculous propaganda" that you seem to have forgotten.
> 
> But I am a Russian distabilizer. You just have to prove it.


Oh, where to start?

The ridiculous notion that American Democrats are socialists. They would fall right of the center of any European country. They are classical liberals at best. They don't fight as a whole for a universal social state so you can't even qualify then as social democrats.

Then the absolute ignorant idea that socialism and national socialism are the same thing. Had you know the least bit of history and political studies you'd know national socialism starts by rejecting the Marxist concepts of class conflict and universal equality, which falls to earth the most basic connection, as it promotes collectivism or communitarianism rather than economic socialism.

Then Nazis did not have universal gun control as there is in most Europe today and american Democrats and more advocate, but a straight ban on firearms by "undesirable people" (Jewish people, gipsy people, people of color, etc.) and facilitation for Arian people and specially party members.

I don't know where you are seeing censorship.

"Media mind control"? Wtf? Much of the media is partisan on the US, from both sides, but the government or political parties don't directly control the media but interest groups that own the outlets sponsor political parties and their agenda. And while at a national level it's balanced, right wing absolutely dominates at local level.

Then you are suggesting the comparison of  the right to abortion to Nazi eugenics and forced abortions. No one is forcing abortions in the US, if anything they want to put all control on the mother's hands, unlike a state that dictates which children have to be born and which children cannot. Same for euthanasia.

Then the Democratic party is overwhelmingly white. Not only that but houses most Jewish people I'm public office.

Also "race determina Identity", with do you mean with that? Because the Democratic party is definitely not supported by white nationalists.

And school control? Also not them who've been banning books and flooding school boards.


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