# Do travel restrictions violate our right to freedom of movement?



## screwdriver8932 (Mar 27, 2020)

I'm currently not allowed to leave Australia because I am an Australian citizen. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights gives us the right to leave our home country.


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## izy (Mar 27, 2020)

screwdriver8932 said:


> I'm currently not allowed to leave Australia because I am an Australian citizen. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights gives us the right to leave our home country.



dont know why you even discussing it, your country is restricting travel 
your country is literally doing it to prevent potential issues during a current pandemic







Sure theres freedom of movement but theres also being an idiot and putting people at risk

/thread


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## Milenko (Mar 27, 2020)

I'm from Australia and I'm passed off they still haven't shut down all non essential businesses.

And they're stopping us from leaving so we don't spread the disease or catch it somewhere else, stop being foolish.


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## Alexander1970 (Mar 27, 2020)

> *Do travel restrictions violate our right to freedom of movement?*



Yes.
Definitely and inevitable.


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## SG854 (Mar 27, 2020)

It's a mass police state government control. The U.S. released the Corona Virus to the world to shut every one down. It's the illuminati devil triangle. Everyone run for your lives!


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## TimPV3 (Mar 27, 2020)

Who do you complain to when COVID-19 violates your right to be alive?


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## SG854 (Mar 27, 2020)

TimPV3 said:


> Who do you complain to when COVID-19 violates your right to be alive?


Yell at Covid-19 to stop. Maybe it'll work.


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## notimp (Mar 27, 2020)

Usually there are clauses for pandemics/health emergencies that make it legal to strip you of freedom of movement rights temporarily.

But you have cod liver oil in your pocket and are angry - so what do you care? Try suing your government now!


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## FAST6191 (Mar 27, 2020)

I find this notion an odd one.

Generally the principle most go with is do what you like as long as you are not hurting others.

Equally going back to probably before recorded history you tended to isolate your sick and your lame until they got better.

To that end we have historical and logical precedent for restricting things.

Now whether any measures taken are overreactions and thus unjustified in this instance is a different discussion entirely. I lean towards overreaction myself but could still see it justified.


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## Taleweaver (Mar 27, 2020)

Ah, Jezus christ... Some people on this forum... 

Yes, your travel rights are being violated, @screwdriver8932 . If you're too dumb or self centered to see why, you've got no choice but to suck it up.

Go ahead and sue travel agencies if that makes you happy. Just don't think that anyone from the "International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights" will defend you in this case, because at best you'll get them to publicly state this is an exception.


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## Reiten (Mar 27, 2020)

screwdriver8932 said:


> I'm currently not allowed to leave Australia because I am an Australian citizen. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights gives us the right to leave our home country.


And where exactly do you want to go. Even if you get out of Australia, no other country is, in any way, obligated to let you in. So your only option would be international waters.


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## MockyLock (Mar 27, 2020)

screwdriver8932 said:


> I'm currently not allowed to leave Australia because I am an Australian citizen. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights gives us the right to leave our home country.



Yes, indeed.

But you should ignore this, and let the natural selection does its job.




Do you know the Darwin Awards ?


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## slaphappygamer (Mar 27, 2020)

Yes, it do. 
Going to the airport is probably the worst thing you can do now. Your country is trying to protect its citizens. Please listen. I’m sure if enough do not, you’ll wake up to a “shelter-in-place” order. That’ll even further violate you. I feel like I’m in the EoF.

Also, please put this mask on for the safety of others. Please visit here to acquire your very own.


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## chrisrlink (Mar 27, 2020)

if there wasn't a pandemic going around the world and a country did this (especially if it's a more free country likr austrailia, US UK etc) I'd be scared shitless but seeing nearly over 200,00+ deaths from a virus i understand that


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## JayMathis (Mar 27, 2020)

SG854 said:


> It's a mass police state government control. The U.S. released the Corona Virus to the world to shut every one down. It's the illuminati devil triangle. Everyone run for your lives!



I guess I can run in place at home. The New World Order is forcing me to stay home.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 28, 2020)

chrisrlink said:


> if there wasn't a pandemic going around the world and a country did this (especially if it's a more free country likr austrailia, US UK etc) I'd be scared shitless but seeing nearly over 200,00+ deaths from a virus i understand that


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6815659/ (Published online 2019 Oct 22)


> Until recently, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated the annual mortality burden of influenza to be 250 000 to 500 000 all-cause deaths globally; however, a 2017 study indicated a substantially higher mortality burden, at 290 000-650 000 influenza-associated deaths from respiratory causes alone, and a 2019 study estimated 99 000-200 000 deaths from lower respiratory tract infections directly caused by influenza.



Care to comment? That also ignores the reduced dangers in a first world country with a functional medical system.


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## notimp (Mar 28, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6815659/ (Published online 2019 Oct 22)
> 
> 
> Care to comment? That also ignores the reduced dangers in a first world country with a functional medical system.


He (/or she ) just got the number wrong. I've argued before that if the outbreak costs less than 2mio lives in the end, you could still qualify the media reaction as overblown.

Even though "hightened attention" is needed to get the public to adhere to measures like curfews, that are instrumental in lowering the deathrate.

Currently it is estimated, that the US will have 2mio deaths caused by Covid 19 alone - so my 'bet' is conservative (2mio worldwide).

An additional issue is, that people will be fudging numbers on this (mostly downwards), because its a high profile issue (look at stock market f.e.).

You can always look at germanys numbers and multiply them by four for US in a 'non overwhelmed' scenario, as a rough (older demographic, different population density) reference value.
-

The simple response to your question is - NY hospitals have ordered cooling trailers for their increasing supply of dead bodies. So - something is different this time around, pretty obviously.


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## JayMathis (Mar 28, 2020)

You cannot underestimate a new virus. There's a 25 year old healthy athletic Lacross player fighting for his life that has coronavirus, which flies in the face of "only elderly or people with health problems" All the stats are being done on the fly.


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## notimp (Mar 28, 2020)

JayMathis said:


> You cannot underestimate a new virus. There's a 25 year old healthy athletic Lacross player fighting for his life that has coronavirus, which flies in the face of "only elderly or people with health problems" All the stats are being done on the fly.


0.2% of people infected, below 35 years of age die, learn to read statistics. 

Immune response is different in different people. You body can produce many antibodies, or few, and they might be highly effective - or not so much. We dont understand the human immune response fully, so we cant even tell you why. 

But yes - 0.2% also is people.

Its a fundamental misunderstanding, that "statistically it affects mostly old people" means that young people are not affected.


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## JayMathis (Mar 28, 2020)

notimp said:


> 0.2% of people infected, below 35 years of age die, learn to read statistics.
> 
> Immune response is different in different people. You body can produce many antibodies, or few, and they might be highly effective - or not so much. We dont understand the humans immune response fully, so we cant even tell you why.
> 
> But guess what - 0.2% also is people.



Again those stats are being made on the fly. Go spout your nonsense somewhere else.


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## notimp (Mar 28, 2020)

Now I have to produce sources. Also fuck you and the limping horse of an emotional argument you rode in on.



> Instead, the higher case rate among older Americans strongly suggests a true underlying, biological vulnerability, probably exacerbated by preexisting illnesses which, according to data from China, sharply raise the risk of both infection and serious illness.
> 
> That likely explains why although older Americans represented 31% of the cases, they accounted for 45% of hospitalizations, 53% of ICU admissions, and 80% of deaths, the CDC reported.
> 
> In contrast, no ICU admissions or deaths were reported among people younger than 20.





> That, too, fits with data from other countries. In South Korea, for example, which had an early surge of cases, the death rate in Covid-19 patients ages 80 and over was 10.4%, compared to 5.35% in 70-somethings, 1.51% in patients 60 to 69, 0.37% in 50-somethings. Even lower rates were seen in younger people, dropping to zero in those 29 and younger.


src: https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18...of-risk-confirms-young-adults-not-invincible/

If you cant read the newsarticles telling young people "they are not immune" for what they are (idiot bait, aimed at idiots that dont respect curfews, because they dont understand that even if they are young, theyd still be great carriers of the virus), thats not my fault.

If you then jump on "lacross player thats so dreamy, also has it, how horrible" - thats yours, because you fundamentaly dont understand how statistics work.

South Korea was one of the countries that handled the outbreak rather well. US did not - but then population densitiy is higher in South Korea, so that should average out over the entire US population (Meaning, in big cities, probably more than 0.2% of young people will die.).

Now get lost with your human interest stories of that dreamy eyed lacross player - if you are not receptive to actual figures.

(Dont run your mouth.)

edit: See also:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says


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## JayMathis (Mar 28, 2020)

I know what the stats say but this virus is 2 months old. it's not like the flu where they know long term. I hope you spend hours finding sources because I won't be reading them. You seem to have trouble with common sense.


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## Seliph (Mar 28, 2020)

Yes, it does.

Feel free to travel if you'd like though!


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## notimp (Mar 28, 2020)

JayMathis said:


> it's not like the flu where they know long term.


Median time to death: 15 days.
That stretches out to 3 months at the long end.

First Covid 19 cases were traced back to November of last year.

We already know - as in definitely know - what percentage of young people are dying - if health systems are not collapsing.

Its not like that we would wake up three weeks from now and that 0.2% figure will have increased manyfold - it never will.

Just understand what these articles are - truisms ( because - yes, young people are not invincible - also yes, they also get hospitalized and put on ventilators at a higher rate than those 0.2% indicate) that are out there to make young people also respect curfews - because if they don't the entire measure doesnt work.

Also yes, even 0.2% of people are no joke.

(If virus stops at 70% propagation rate, 70% of US population are 230 mio people, 0.2% of that are 460.000 dead people, if the rate is double that - nearly a million. (Thats in a 'no vaccine' and 70% propagation within a year scenario.))

edit: Had to remove young twice, because - not how math works.  (The 460.000 people in the example above are not all young.)


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## D34DL1N3R (Mar 28, 2020)

Seems a lot of people don't understand their freedoms and what violations of freedoms actually mean. No, travel restrictions do NOT violate anyone's freedoms. You are still free to do as you wish. It's like trying to say "My freedom of speech was violated because I was fired for calling my boss a dumb fucker to his face!!!" Ummm no, your freedom of speech was not taken away. You were free to say as you wanted, and you did. Thing is, freedom to do something does not = freedom from consequence for ones actions.


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## notimp (Mar 28, 2020)

Actual people living in the US under the age of 35: 150mio, 70% of that are 105mio, 0.2% of those dying are 210.000.

So those should be roughly be (likely less, because 0.2% was the value in my age bracket (30-35) I remember) the number of "young" people dying in the US because of Corona (compared to an overall estimate of people dying in the US of about 2 million (better quality number (derived from models (Imperial College London for the US)), than the 0.2% flat value for "young people" I'm operating with)) in a no vaccine scenario. Not the 460.000 mentioned above.

My mistake - I wrote it very late last night.


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## subcon959 (Mar 28, 2020)

Hold the phone.. @notimp is a millennial? This is scandalous news!


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## notimp (Mar 28, 2020)

subcon959 said:


> Hold the phone.. @notimp is a millennial? This is scandalous news!


In my defense, I always said so - while making the 'millennial culture kind of isnt that great' posts to begin with.  (Much harsher words were used in the actual postings.  )


edit: For reference: https://gbatemp.net/blog/notimp.101990/ (Originally was a forum post, moderators moved it to the blogs section. (Also I'm actually 36 now - just in the spirit of open disclosure..  ))


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## TunaKetchup (Mar 28, 2020)

D34DL1N3R said:


> Seems a lot of people don't understand their freedoms and what violations of freedoms actually mean. No, travel restrictions do NOT violate anyone's freedoms. You are still free to do as you wish. It's like trying to say "My freedom of speech was violated because I was fired for calling my boss a dumb fucker to his face!!!" Ummm no, your freedom of speech was not taken away. You were free to say as you wanted, and you did. Thing is, freedom to do something does not = freedom from consequence for ones actions.



Well youre about 10% right

Freedom of speech in most cases prevents government prosecution.

It really has nothing to do with saying bad things to your boss


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## Deleted member 514389 (Mar 28, 2020)

Probably not as much as these "freespirited" travlers violate the safety of ppl.

There, watch this.


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## D34DL1N3R (Mar 28, 2020)

TunaKetchup said:


> Well youre about 10% right
> 
> Freedom of speech in most cases prevents government prosecution.
> 
> It really has nothing to do with saying bad things to your boss



Ummm. Ever heard of an example or illustration? You are about ZERO percent right. Freedom of speech is not taken away even if there is government prosecution. Freedom of anything does NOT equal freedom from consequence from enacting upon any said freedom. Try going around making terroristic threats and see what happens. You know nothing about how freedom of anything works.


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## screwdriver8932 (Mar 28, 2020)

To clarify with those who called me an idiot, I agree that we should not travel. I am asking this out of curiosity, not frustration.


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## Millqa (Mar 31, 2020)

Of course, restrictions or prohibitions on leaving the country violate our rights. But if we are talking about a worldwide quarantine, unfortunately, we will have to wait for it to be lifted. This should be done for our health. By the way, this is terribly spoiling our plans. I was about to have a wedding and a bachelor party in Orlando. Now both the wedding and the party must be postponed until better times. We will need to check availability and book rooms in advance, because this is a very popular place and all rooms often are unavailable.


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## FAST6191 (Mar 31, 2020)

Millqa said:


> Of course, restrictions or prohibitions on leaving the country violate our rights. But if we are talking about a worldwide quarantine, unfortunately, we will have to wait for it to be lifted.



Ignoring the earlier stuff about the right not extending to times of problems (whether it is or is not is a different discussion) then you tend not to have the right to go to another country.

For another one I was reading a US passport a while back. It said in it don't allow holders of this passport to enter/travel to a list of a few countries. Now most of those you probably don't want to be wandering around as an American. Does your passport violate those rights you imagine you have?


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## notimp (Mar 31, 2020)

Sweden has a different corona strategy btw. social distancing but voluntary. Universities are closed, schools are open. Country is about as big as Austria (country neighboring Italy) - so you can compare the two lets say at the end of the year, or in two/three years (after peak, after 'end' of epidemic) to see if social distancing - with an intelligent pubic  - would have made sense. 

Currently the number of people that died of corona in the two countries (the most 'reliable' figure) is roughly the same.

(You'd have to look up hospital capacity, demography wise they should have about the same amount of older people.)


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## adeptape (Jul 17, 2020)

people should not have the right to jeopardize the safety of other people.


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## CallmeBerto (Jul 25, 2020)

Not really.

I mean you should be able to travel anywhere within your own country but no other country (lets say the USA) has to accept you.


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