# Food Shortages, Wendy's takes Burgers off Menu



## SG854 (May 7, 2020)

Wendy's a mainly burger focused place takes burgers off menu at some locations.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.today.com/today/amp/tdna180745



Some grocerie stores and restaurants are having diffuliculties getting some food items and started rationing food.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...ng-kroger-costco-grocery-chains-supermarkets/

Corona Virus too long shut down may cause global famine of biblical proportions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...coronavirus-famine-un-warning-intl/index.html

Is this a warning? Should we open the economy soon?


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## notimp (May 7, 2020)

Hints were thrown about 10 days ago:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/27/tyson-food-supply-coronavirus/

edit: Unpaywalled an excerpt:


> In a full-page newspaper ad published in The Washington Post, the New York Times and the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette on Sunday, Tyson Foods — which sells products ranging from frozen chicken nuggets to cuts of raw pork — said the coronavirus pandemic may disrupt the U.S. food supply chain and raise the price of meat.
> 
> The company defended itself from criticism that it has not adequately protected its workers and pleaded for more government assistance in doing so.
> 
> ...



The answer is, you have to selectively reopen the economy. (Meaning you send food plant workers back to work, calling them heroes, while the rest could still be quarantining.)

Its not that the food is not there (entire flocks of chicken were killed and burned, because there were no people available for processing).

As for reopening the overall economy - every scientist says - no - (because the US basically still has case numbers that are expected to rise), but the decision you are trying to make is - more people killed by the virus (mostly older folks) vs. economic damage (recession, depression, ...).

In the US the calculation seems to be pretty different to europe because - a. spread is out of control in the US, as far as we can tell (meaning, you almost have no options to selectively quarantine), b. your population is far more crazy and militant, and not responsive to 'please stay at home' pleas, c. you have almost no social stability systems (outside the free market economy) and shutdown is costly, d. your death tolls already are the highest in the world (but thats a factor of also having proper testing and publishing the results, while f.e. china does not - you still have not enough testing, to say for sure, when opening the economy up would be proper - you are guessing that currently).

Meaning. The US is not on 'we have to safe as many lives as possible' course any more. You already are starting to do mixed calculations. (Opening the economy up tendentially too early.)

Doesnt mean that the rest of the world will fair better in the long run, we just have more options.


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## SG854 (May 7, 2020)

notimp said:


> Hints were thrown about 10 days ago:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/27/tyson-food-supply-coronavirus/
> 
> edit: Unpaywalled an excerpt:
> ...


Food Plant workers, Truck Drivers, plastic creation plants to wrap food in, kitchen items, charcoal, gas (gas prices fallen) all the materials needed to create light bulbs and everyday essentials, back to work.


Kinda hard to stay at home when people need to go to the grocerie store to buy stuff to survive. Majority of covid patients were people staying at home. Got infected going out doing essential things.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/guid/E00F1A9A-8FE9-11EA-9208-AF2E6FA5B5BC


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## notimp (May 7, 2020)

SG854 said:


> Food Plant workers, Truck Drivers, plastic creation plants to wrap food in, kitchen items, charcoal, gas (gas prices fallen) all the materials needed to create light bulbs and everyday essentials, back to work.
> 
> 
> Kinda hard to stay at home when people need to go to the grocerie store to buy stuff to survive.


Correct. But usually you should have all 'essential' supplies in country and nearby, potentially even 'in stock'. For more than a month. (And China started production again already. (US is thinking about that from different angles as well I'm sure.))

Also reserve oil tanks are full to the brim at the moment.

Meat processing probably is highly affected, because thats an industry you could only automate to a certain extent (Machines not that good at making precise cuts in stuff that has natural variation..  ).

So they are amongst the first that 'break'.

Meaning it still should be possible for a while to only let the meat workers back to work ('heroes'). 

The problem that you cant, shouldnt be a supply side issue, but a demand issue.

People largely really having lived 'paycheck to paycheck', and having no money to spend, if they dont work. (No savings.) That does you in faster. If that starts to happen, you will always reopen the economy.

Otherwise revolts, ...
--

With PPE its more complicated (harder to ramp up or down), because that was largely outsourced. (People relied on a steady supply from china (and others).) With goods of daily life you didn't. (With medicine everyone - again - did..  )

edit: Demand shortage (even after curfews are lifted) in other countries also is behaviorally driven (= people start to spend money again cautiously.):
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/mar...t-a-post-coronavirus-world-stephen-roach.html


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## Subtle Demise (May 7, 2020)

notimp said:


> Correct. But usually you should have all 'essential' supplies in country and nearby, potentially even 'in stock'. For more than a month. (And China started production again already. (US is thinking about that from different angles as well I'm sure.))
> 
> Also reserve oil tanks are full to the brim at the moment.
> 
> ...


I work in grocery, in the meat department. Meat processors have never stopped working. A few plants have closed down of their own volition when employees started falling ill. Donald Trump issued an executive order to force them to open back up, but new guidelines as well as employees taking advantage of newly expanded sick leave and unemployment means they are operating at between 30-50% capacity nationwide. The solution would be to switch to non-perishable staple foods, but of course the hoarders and panic-buyers already caused a shortage in those as well.


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## notimp (May 7, 2020)

The issue is more complicated then, because its basically caused by a mass behavior. :/

People are self isolating to save others, not themselves (statistically) - and it should make little difference (for yourself) if you (if you dont show symptoms) go on sick leave now - or a year from now. All the meat manufacturer would have to do is to allow for social distancing opportunities in the production environment (= also likely lower output) - and for facemasks (not PPE, fabric masks would be enough), and sanitization stations (especially since infection rates in meat plants afair were far higher than in the general public - please double check I dont know how testing availability influenced this).

So this is caused by people loosing trust (understandably so), and according to you 'trying to sit this out' - which they cant. Which is very much harder to manage...

Stuff like this shouldnt be structural though ('omg the food is running out'), and limited to a few sectors of food production at most. From everything I'm reading, the issue (why to open the economy earlier) is not a supply shortage. (Also you wouldnt instill a statewide or nationwide curfew, without checking if food supply would run into problems first.)

So many words, and most of them useless. Some things you can only acknowledge.

(Believing in political systems - and their ability to function, only works, if you oversimplify almost everything. When in reality people dont show up to work out of fear - no one can plan that, or make them... Stuff like this is humbling. Thats a reality check.)


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## Kraken_X (May 7, 2020)

In my state, everything related to the food supply chain was considered essential and nothing related to it was shut down by the government.  Yet the meat processing plants were still closed, because the workers need specialized knowledge and skills and are too sick to work.

Opening non-essential business and making folks stop working from home is just going to make the infection rate higher and make the workers in the essential businesses more vulnerable.  This puts the supply chain at an even higher risk.


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## FAST6191 (May 8, 2020)

Can't get or can't get at a price it cares to pay? If you are serving bottom of the barrel muck (though why it was not arbitraged I am not sure) then a bump in costs can make things untenable if your prices are also unmoveable.


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## Taleweaver (May 9, 2020)

I'll be blunt: I find this thread a rather embarrassing way to portray USA.

1) the thread title is misleading; Wendy's doesn't take burgers off the menu. Only in "some locations"
2) underneath that sensationalist piece is a part that is actually relevant: "The closures have halted 25% of pork production and 10% of beef production in the U.S". That's certainly not insignificant, but also not crucial either.
3) Seeing that this is (apparently?) caused by 4200 ill workers, it is actually a case AGAINST reopening the economy rather than for one.
4) OP also implies that the USA was apparently dumb enough not to consider food production, transportation and distributing as an essential service. Luckily, this got torpedoed later on
5) that last link isn't talking about the USA. I know I've made the analysis that the USA is screwed, but let's not go nuts, okay? The USA isn't a developing country (yet), and it's not like "my local Wendy isn't serving meat anymore " is somehow a complaint of the same category as "on top of draught, crop failures and locust swarms our village now ALSO faces dire consequences in food distribution due to the corona virus"

Okay, and perhaps 6) link your sources directly rather than through a google result. It proves you weren't triggered by news events but rather pursued them to prove your political agenda. But I'll be fair: that's just a pet peeve compared to the rest.


Still...despite all this, the last part is worth discussing: 
_"Is this a warning? Should we open the economy soon?"
_
(well...the first one. The latter one is pointed out that it was never closed to begin with)

I'll be honest: I have no clue how food distribution works around the globe, and upon inspection it actually SHOULDN'T work. I mean...I had avocados for lunch today. The whole world's in lockdown, but somehow this vegetable gets to travel the world to get on my plate? 
Some countries I know like the Netherlands have made it an honor case to be self-sufficient in times of crisis, but Belgium has always relied on exports. Our agriculture simply isn't strong enough to feed everyone. For the moment it's okay, but I have no doubt there'll be a major impact somewhere in the not so long future. Our (little) agriculture relies for a large part on immigrants plowing the fields. Since they couldn't make it, the crops will be less, resulting in larger agricultural prices and potentially even larger meat prices (animals have to be fed as well).

For the US: I won't lie: it could very well be a warning, yes. Trump can execute orders all day, but sick workers can't work, and if a significant percentage of a plant/factory/farm/whatever is sick, the output is halted. If this situational case happens on enough locations, there'll be a food shortage.

In any other country, I'd make the argument that flattening the curve is the solution, but America? Pfff...There's a part of the population that doesn't need to be told, and there's a part that's too stubborn to listen regardless. That latter part will protest for their right to work, the virus will continue to wreak havoc and you'll end up in the same situation as those developing countries.

...so on hindsight, I'll withdraw my point five. I considered it distasteful, but it may just as well be America's future.


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## UltraSUPRA (May 9, 2020)

How interesting. It seems like the lockdown is doing more harm than good.
On top of that, the governor of New York has said that most Winnie the Flu victims weren't essential employees but rather stayed home the entire time. It's almost like staying inside weakens your immune system.


OPEN THE FRICKING ECONOMY ALREADY!


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## Xzi (May 9, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> How interesting. It seems like the lockdown is doing more harm than good.


Literally nowhere has that proven to be the case, and every state that has reopened thus far has seen a spike in new infections.  It's highly likely that some of them will have to issue new stay at home orders, all because a few Karens couldn't wait any longer for a haircut.



UltraSUPRA said:


> On top of that, the governor of New York has said that most Winnie the Flu victims weren't essential employees but rather stayed home the entire time. It's almost like staying inside weakens your immune system.


It's almost like most New Yorkers live in packed apartment buildings with hundreds of other people close by.  The issue is that we simply don't have enough testing to know when, where, and how these people got infected.  Re-opening without that data is a guaranteed disaster, and we're currently only testing about 0.5% of the population each day.


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## UltraSUPRA (May 9, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Literally nowhere has that proven to be the case, and every state that has reopened thus far has seen a spike in new infections.  It's highly likely that some of them will have to issue new stay at home orders, all because a few Karens couldn't wait any longer for a haircut.


It's less about places opening up and more that testing facilities are becoming more readily available.


Xzi said:


> It's almost like most New Yorkers live in packed apartment buildings with hundreds of other people close by.  The issue is that we simply don't have enough testing to know when, where, and how these people got infected.  Re-opening without that data is a guaranteed disaster, and we're currently only testing about 0.5% of the population each day.


Are apartments really that much worse than the subway?
In addition, .5% of 300 million people is still 1.5 million. Yes, the numbers could be higher, but that's each day. In one week, assuming there's no overlap, that's a good 10.5 million people.

One last thing: opening the economy back up will save more lives than the Winnie the Flu will take.


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## Xzi (May 9, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Are apartments really that much worse than the subway?


That's kinda my point, it's much harder to practice social distancing no matter where you go in New York compared to other cities and states.  Thus it becomes nigh impossible to do contact tracing there without an abundance of readily-available tests.



UltraSUPRA said:


> In addition, .5% of 300 million people is still 1.5 million. Yes, the numbers could be higher, but that's each day. In one week, assuming there's no overlap, that's a good 10.5 million people.


It's far too insufficient.  Infectious disease experts say we need to be testing a _minimum_ of 15% of the population per day to safely reopen.  Which is why the federal government already threw the "safely" part out the window.



UltraSUPRA said:


> One last thing: opening the economy back up will save more lives than the Winnie the Flu will take.


A dystopian choice which shouldn't be forced upon citizens.  Neither homelessness/starvation nor working for $7.50 an hour in unsafe conditions are good options.  If the powers that be are desperate to see corporate profits start flowing again, then it's time to start paying those employees that were deemed "essential" a living wage.  Not to mention providing them with proper PPE and cleaning supplies.  That's the absolute bare minimum they can do, and still so many companies aren't doing it.

This thing is gonna kill well over 200K people in the US before all is said and done, at least half of those deaths will have been preventable.


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## SG854 (May 10, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> I'll be blunt: I find this thread a rather embarrassing way to portray USA.
> 
> 1) the thread title is misleading; Wendy's doesn't take burgers off the menu. Only in "some locations"
> 2) underneath that sensationalist piece is a part that is actually relevant: "The closures have halted 25% of pork production and 10% of beef production in the U.S". That's certainly not insignificant, but also not crucial either.
> ...


That was explained in the OP. Wendy's only takes burgers out of some locations. I couldn't fit all that information in the Title. But it is a shortage that they had to take off burgers.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Taleweaver said:


> I'll be blunt: I find this thread a rather embarrassing way to portray USA.
> 
> 1) the thread title is misleading; Wendy's doesn't take burgers off the menu. Only in "some locations"
> 2) underneath that sensationalist piece is a part that is actually relevant: "The closures have halted 25% of pork production and 10% of beef production in the U.S". That's certainly not insignificant, but also not crucial either.
> ...


And what political agenda. What in the world you are talking about. Just some information I found and let people discuss about in this thread. I agree with @notimp. Just wanted to see what information people can bring.


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## UltraSUPRA (May 10, 2020)

Xzi said:


> That's kinda my point, it's much harder to practice social distancing no matter where you go in New York compared to other cities and states.  Thus it becomes nigh impossible to do contact tracing there without an abundance of readily-available tests.


In other words, lockdowns change nothing in the Big Apple.


Xzi said:


> It's far too insufficient.  Infectious disease experts say we need to be testing a _minimum_ of 15% of the population per day to safely reopen.  Which is why the federal government already threw the "safely" part out the window.


What "experts"?


Xzi said:


> A dystopian choice which shouldn't be forced upon citizens.  Neither homelessness/starvation nor working for $7.50 an hour in unsafe conditions are good options.  If the powers that be are desperate to see corporate profits start flowing again, then it's time to start paying those employees that were deemed "essential" a living wage.  Not to mention providing them with proper PPE and cleaning supplies.  That's the absolute bare minimum they can do, and still so many companies aren't doing it.


Minimum wage jobs are for teenagers who either live with their parents or are in college. Increasing the minimum wage would also increase prices on everything to balance it out.


Xzi said:


> This thing is gonna kill well over 200K people in the US before all is said and done, at least half of those deaths will have been preventable.


Everyone who has ever come close to finding a vaccine has "mysteriously" been thrown out the window, or shot, or hung, or whatever. The people you're voting for want to keep this disease alive to fuel our paranoia so that we have to rely on the government. And then...communism.
If you want Winnie the Flu to die, the first step is McCarthyism. Otherwise...no deaths will be preventable.


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## Xzi (May 10, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> In other words, lockdowns change nothing in the Big Apple.


Not what I'm saying, the rate of new infections is still going to be much lower with a stay at home order, it's just never going to be zero.



UltraSUPRA said:


> What "experts"?


Literally all of them.  CDC, WHO, Fauci, everyone has the same message on this.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Minimum wage jobs are for teenagers who either live with their parents or are in college. Increasing the minimum wage would also increase prices on everything to balance it out.


That hasn't been true since the 80s, the service industry is like 75% of America's jobs.  Which means everyone works at Wal-Mart and in fast food, including the middle aged and senior citizens.  Plus minimum wage hasn't even kept pace with inflation, let alone production, and now people are being asked to work for peanuts during a deadly pandemic.  It's unsustainable.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Everyone who has ever come close to finding a vaccine has "mysteriously" been thrown out the window


Umm no, we've been told from the beginning that a vaccine would take at least a year, and that's probably not even accounting for thorough testing.



UltraSUPRA said:


> The people you're voting for want to keep this disease alive to fuel our paranoia so that we have to rely on the government. And then...communism.


The people I've voted for would have done far more to prevent the spread of this virus in the first place.  "Work will set you free" is not exactly the best argument for unregulated capitalism at the moment, given the historical connotations and all.


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## UltraSUPRA (May 10, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Not what I'm saying, the rate of new infections is still going to be much lower with a stay at home order, it's just never going to be zero.


But over time, people will become more susceptible to it due to weaker immune systems.


Xzi said:


> Literally all of them.  CDC, WHO, Fauci, everyone has the same message on this.


"experts"


Xzi said:


> That hasn't been true since the 80s, the service industry is like 75% of America's jobs.  Which means everyone works at Wal-Mart and in fast food, including the middle aged and senior citizens.  Plus minimum wage hasn't even kept pace with inflation, let alone production, and now people are being asked to work for peanuts during a deadly pandemic.  It's unsustainable.


Suppose you own a small business.
Your employees work for minimum wage.
After factoring in bills, at the end of the day you have just enough to pay for rent and a few meals.

Then the minimum wage gets increased.

Lay off employees, jack up prices, or starve? Your choice.


Xzi said:


> Umm no, we've been told from the beginning that a vaccine would take at least a year, and that's probably not even accounting for thorough testing.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...cant-coronavirus-findings-shot-death-n1200896


Xzi said:


> The people I've voted for would have done far more to prevent the spread of this virus in the first place.  "Work will set you free" is not exactly the best argument for unregulated capitalism at the moment, given the historical connotations and all.


I agree that the people you're voting for would do more to stop the spread. The problem is how they would; Kim Jong Un shoots everyone in North Korea who has it, and NK is a communist country.


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## SG854 (May 10, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Not what I'm saying, the rate of new infections is still going to be much lower with a stay at home order, it's just never going to be zero.
> 
> 
> Literally all of them.  CDC, WHO, Fauci, everyone has the same message on this.
> ...


I've seen older people and seniors work at minimum wage service jobs. But I mostly see teens and young adults. But if you are over the age of 30 it's embarrassing to still be working there. I've seen older people get made fun of alot to be working at that kind of job. They are the odd ones out,  especially made fun of by the younger people.


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## Chary (May 10, 2020)

Three separate orders to Kroger/H-E-B, and I’ve been told they’re sold out of steaks, ground beef, chicken breasts, stew meat, and even frozen beef related dinners...


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## Hells Malice (May 10, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> How interesting. It seems like the lockdown is doing more harm than good.
> On top of that, the governor of New York has said that most Winnie the Flu victims weren't essential employees but rather stayed home the entire time. It's almost like staying inside weakens your immune system.
> 
> 
> OPEN THE FRICKING ECONOMY ALREADY!



lmaooo i'd say "I'm glad people smarter than you make the decisions" but i've seen American news so I guess people as dumb as you are also in charge.

This is a perfect example of when someone with absolutely no knowledge or understanding of anything tries to have an opinion.

You must be big on reddit.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (May 10, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I agree that the people you're voting for would do more to stop the spread. The problem is how they would; Kim Jong Un shoots everyone in North Korea who has it, and NK is a communist country.


Is it the same source that claimed Kim was dead?

The DPRK may actually have no cases at all. They closed the border very early. Russia did so as well but they did let Europeans come (which is how it spread to Russia). The Democrats shot themselves in the foot in the beginning. The should have demanded a complete border closing instead of replicating the naive "does not respect borders" meme. If they had done so, they could actually blame Trump today.


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## Xzi (May 10, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> But over time, people will become more susceptible to it due to weaker immune systems.


I don't know where you got that idea.  A stay at home order is not the same as a stay indoors 24/7 order.



UltraSUPRA said:


> "experts"


Yeah, y'know, the opposite of Youtubers and reality TV stars.  People who have dedicated their lives to one study.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Suppose you own a small business.


Suppose you ever want to own a small business.  $7.50 an hour makes that perpetually impossible.  And loosening regulations so that it's easier for corporations to muscle out the little guy doesn't help either.



UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...cant-coronavirus-findings-shot-death-n1200896


Gee, it's almost like random acts of violence occur every day in the US.  Also worth noting that his research wasn't going to produce an instant cure/vaccine either way, it would only serve to speed up the research process some.



UltraSUPRA said:


> I agree that the people you're voting for would do more to stop the spread. The problem is how they would; Kim Jong Un shoots everyone in North Korea who has it, and NK is a communist country.


The US has the most infections and deaths by far, and we're a capitalist country.  In fact, one could say that the capitalist thought process is precisely the reason why we were so unprepared for this pandemic, and why we'll be just as unprepared for the next one too.

Of course it's silly to pretend there isn't more nuance to the situation, North Korea is a dictatorship and the US is essentially a banana republic, with the leaders of the two countries being corruption BFFs.  Obviously South Korea is a much better model for how to handle outbreaks such as Covid, and proof that even a capitalist country can protect its citizens as long as the government actually gives a fuck about them.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (May 10, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Obviously South Korea is a much better model for how to handle outbreaks such as Covid, and proof that even a capitalist country can protect its citizens as long as the government actually gives a fuck about them.


Only considering profits can indeed be a problem. But that´s not even the case in the US either. The US government spends an enormous amount of money for the unprofitable military. By just reducing it by half you could probably not only have healthcare for all but also give it to everyone in North and South America (not that it would be desirable, just saying). The crazy thing is almost nobody addresses this point. Trump ran as an anti foreign intervention candidate but he always wanted to make the military as powerful as never before. Sanders complains about the billionaires all day long but never talked about "defence" spending either (as far as I know). The only exception is Ron Paul but he is shunned by the media. I wonder why...


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## UltraSUPRA (May 10, 2020)

Xzi said:


> I don't know where you got that idea.  A stay at home order is not the same as a stay indoors 24/7 order.


Uh...yeah it is.


Xzi said:


> Yeah, y'know, the opposite of Youtubers and reality TV stars.  People who have dedicated their lives to one study.


That being journalism, disguised as medical advice.


Xzi said:


> Suppose you ever want to own a small business.  $7.50 an hour makes that perpetually impossible.  And loosening regulations so that it's easier for corporations to muscle out the little guy doesn't help either.


Eradicate the minimum wage.


Xzi said:


> Gee, it's almost like random acts of violence occur every day in the US.


Gee, it's almost like flu deaths occur every day in the US.


Xzi said:


> The US has the most infections and deaths by far,


Correction: the most _reported _infections and deaths.


Xzi said:


> even a capitalist country can protect its citizens as long as the government actually gives a fuck about them.


Trump issued the stay at home order in the first place. It's the liberals that don't give a crap about us; this was gonna only last two weeks to get the hospitals ready, rather than until the end of time to do something that has never been done once in human history.


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## Xzi (May 10, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Uh...yeah it is.


You were misinformed.  People were out walking their dogs in my neighborhood every day during the stay at home order, it's easy enough to comply with social distancing in that type of situation.



UltraSUPRA said:


> That being journalism, disguised as medical advice.


I never mentioned any article or news outlet, it's strictly what the experts are saying regardless of where you get your news.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Eradicate the minimum wage.


I mean, I guess if you want people to get desperate enough to eat the rich, this is probably the fastest way to get there.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Gee, it's almost like flu deaths occur every day in the US.


It's almost like we've had various protections and treatments against the flu for decades, and we've only known about the existence of Covid-19 for less than a year.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Correction: the most _reported _infections and deaths.


And we're still under-reporting in many states.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Trump issued the stay at home order in the first place.


About a month too late and after governors had already been forced to take action individually, sure. 

The meat shortages we're facing now aren't because of resistance to re-opening, either, but because so many processing plants _did_ re-open just to find a majority of their employees infected.  We're getting the worst of both worlds by closing too late and re-opening too early.


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## Taleweaver (May 10, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> "experts"


No, dipshit. Experts. As in: people with actual expertise on the field they're talking about. Just because you found quotation marks on your keyboard doesn't mean you can just dismiss their stance as opinions. 

@Xzi and others: I'm sorry you've got to share a country with these kinds of morons.


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## notimp (May 10, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> But over time, people will become more susceptible to it due to weaker immune systems.


Yeah, not how this works.

Infection rate is the same, weak immune system or not.

(Oh, and while we are at it, weak immune system is nothing thats a universall thing someone can just have, or that someone gets, if they dont go outside often anymore. (There are allergies, there is aids (/auto immune illnesseses), and there are people producing less antibodies, for this virus, but not for another, and we dont know why.))

Lets say your point were correct, and staying home, made people sick with different illnesseses, thereby making them at least more susceptible to dying (infection rate still would be roughly the same). That percentage - would still be so low - that people carrying the virus around, sometimes with no, or only mild symptoms is the bigger issue here, IF your medical system is on brink of being overtaxed, which in the US it is.

So the more people carry it, the more people get sick, the more the health system is taxed, the more people die. 'Weak immune system from people getting not enough sun' doesnt compare risk profile wise.
-

Staying home works as many people are getting over the virus at home, or in hospital - but at the same time, stopping the exponential infection rate. While people are on curfew. And lowering the overall number, quite radically, as you prevent further spread, while people get over it.

If you then open up stores again, even if the infection rate becomes exponential again, but from a far lower case number (people got over the infection in quarantine), even exponential growth is less worrying - for a time. If numbers become big again, same procedure, or hopefully some sort of treatment becomes available.
-

Now here is where you are right. In certain businesses (gastronomy) losses now are losses that dont get 'reconsumed' after a curfew, jobs lost now, doesnt mean, that they will come back when curfews are lifted, and unemployment rises throughout the US.

So ultimately curfews will have to be lifted as a result of that. That doesnt mean, that peoples consumption behavior will be back to normal right out of the gate.

And at the same time, if you press on doing it faster, infection rate in the population is higher, and you've gained not as much as if you could have, if you kept curfews longer.

The next time your hospitals become overfilled people will be less likely to comply to curfews to 'fix that' anyhow. So why not give it at least one good try?


Its not like someone could overlook, that the economy doesnt like curfews. And its not like someone wouldnt have thought of that unforseeable effect, of people getting less well the longer they are isolated.

Its just mainly, that all those fruit juices, and yoga lessons, and fitness centers really have no effect on your immune system at all (medium term (as in months not outside), and its absolutely the right thing to ignore your theory of 'but more people will die from not jogging enough'.


----------



## notimp (May 10, 2020)

Economic perspective in canada, should anyone want more in debt information:


Also some new polls in the EU point towards curfews in france and belgium not being upholdable for very much longer.  (Majority of the citizens is against it by now..  )


----------



## MohammedQ8 (May 10, 2020)

Mama Corona


----------



## Waygeek (May 15, 2020)

SG854 said:


> Kinda hard to stay at home when people need to go to the grocerie store to buy stuff to survive. Majority of covid patients were people staying at home. Got infected going out doing essential things.



God bless you if you think stay at home orders includes *somehow not buying and therefore not ingesting food for 2+ months*.

lmfao


----------



## SG854 (May 15, 2020)

Waygeek said:


> God bless you if you think stay at home orders includes *somehow not buying and therefore not ingesting food for 2+ months*.
> 
> lmfao


What? Where did I say that?


----------



## Amadren (May 15, 2020)

I just find that surprising that you are all pushing for lockdown and staying this way to "save other people" but you never think about how much an economic hit will kill too.

The deaths related to economic crisis in the USA are counted in the millions, I mean come on, it's not speculation, we had global crash of the stock market before, and we'll have more in the future. The Fed printing billions of dollars to save the stock market is only creating economical bubbles that will just explode later on, while making a huge increase in inflation.

Soon, the lockdown will cause poor people to not being able to afford basic supplies and healthcare. Patient with chronic illnesses are not going to the hospital anymore because they are afraid to die of covid. Heck, even hospitals are shutting down altogether because they don't have enough patients.

Put simply, it's more like, poor people will either die of covid, or of hunger/homelessness. /shrug


----------



## Waygeek (May 15, 2020)

SG854 said:


> What? Where did I say that?


I literally even quoted you. Maybe read the quote to find where you made that suggestion. Jesus how much help do you need?

And Amadren you have no hard data to support a societal collapse like that is incoming. I'm very ready for this lockdown to be done too now but let's not be inventing things hmm?


----------



## SG854 (May 15, 2020)

Waygeek said:


> I literally even quoted you. Maybe read the quote to find where you made that suggestion. Jesus how much help do you need?
> 
> And Amadren you have no hard data to support a societal collapse like that is incoming. I'm very ready for this lockdown to be done too now but let's not be inventing things hmm?


I never said that. I never said people shouldn't be eating.


----------



## Waygeek (May 15, 2020)

SG854 said:


> I never said that. I never said people shouldn't be eating.



You said "Kinda hard to stay at home when people need to go to the grocerie store to buy stuff to survive". 

Stay at home orders OBVIOUSLY exclude grocery shopping. 

Jesus.


----------



## SG854 (May 16, 2020)

Waygeek said:


> Stay at home orders OBVIOUSLY exclude grocery shopping.


Exactly? Which is implied in that sentence. I really don't understand your angle.


----------



## Waygeek (May 16, 2020)

The opposite, in fact, is what you implied. 

You're arguing that stay at home orders should be lifted, because people need to buy groceries.

Except buying groceries is not covered by stay at home orders.

You are very, very confused. God bless you.


----------



## SG854 (May 16, 2020)

Waygeek said:


> The opposite, in fact, is what you implied.
> 
> You're arguing that stay at home orders should be lifted, because people need to buy groceries.
> 
> ...


No, never said that. Stay at home orders helped reduce the amount getting infected. I know myself and what I meant more then you. Unless you know me more then I know myself.  

Few people still got infected going out to get groceries because fully staying at home is not possible because people need food, so we will see most infected that are following stay at home rather then people breaking the stay at home rules.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (May 18, 2020)

Okay, I've had plenty of time to think over my response.


Xzi said:


> You were misinformed.  People were out walking their dogs in my neighborhood every day during the stay at home order, it's easy enough to comply with social distancing in that type of situation.


If a large part of the population were thieves, would theft be legal?


Xzi said:


> I never mentioned any article or news outlet, it's strictly what the experts are saying regardless of where you get your news.


These "experts" that you're talking about are likely the same ones that sent out infected tests and chose a Swedish high school dropout over a trained doctor to discuss Winnie the Flu.


Xzi said:


> I mean, I guess if you want people to get desperate enough to eat the rich, this is probably the fastest way to get there.


Small businesses tend to be very generous.


Xzi said:


> It's almost like we've had various protections and treatments against the flu for decades, and we've only known about the existence of Covid-19 for less than a year.


That fact that Flu Bear is even an issue stems from the fact that we don't have a vaccine for the flu in general. Only flu shots that give you  temporary antibodies.


Xzi said:


> And we're still under-reporting in many states.


Please adjust your statistics to account for population.


Xzi said:


> About a month too late and after governors had already been forced to take action individually, sure.


It was so that we wouldn't overwhelm hospitals. This quarantine has lasted so long that we'll end up overwhelming the hospitals anyway because so many doctors are being laid off.


Xzi said:


> The meat shortages we're facing now aren't because of resistance to re-opening, either, but because so many processing plants _did_ re-open just to find a majority of their employees infected.  We're getting the worst of both worlds by closing too late and re-opening too early.


That's because more and more tests are becoming available, not because more and more people are getting it.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If a large part of the population were thieves, would theft be legal?


I have no idea what point it is you're trying to make here.  Not a single governor declared it illegal to take a walk outside during the stay at home order.



UltraSUPRA said:


> These "experts" that you're talking about are likely the same ones that sent out infected tests and chose a Swedish high school dropout over a trained doctor to discuss Winnie the Flu.


Like I said, pick your own expert.  As long as they have even a rudimentary knowledge of infectious diseases, they'll tell you the same damn thing.  Dr. Fauci has been a part of the CDC since the early 80s IIRC, he's served under like ten different presidents.  Nobody needed to learn his name until now because every president other than Trump simply took his advice.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Small businesses tend to be very generous.


So noble of you, shifting more of society's burdens off of the billionaires and corporations at the top, and back down on to small businesses and individuals already struggling to stay afloat.  /s



UltraSUPRA said:


> That fact that Flu Bear is even an issue stems from the fact that we don't have a vaccine for the flu in general. Only flu shots that give you temporary antibodies.


True, but the flu was never as deadly or infectious as COVID-19 even before we developed shots for it.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Please adjust your statistics to account for population.


I didn't post any statistics.  Under-reporting is under-reporting, regardless of the exact number.



UltraSUPRA said:


> It was so that we wouldn't overwhelm hospitals. This quarantine has lasted so long that we'll end up overwhelming the hospitals anyway because so many doctors are being laid off.


That doesn't make any sense.  Issuing the stay at home order later than we should have is exactly what caused so many overwhelmed hospitals.  Fewer people going out means fewer people getting infected.  I haven't heard of any doctors being laid off, but if that is happening, it's surely the result of pure greed at the executive level.



UltraSUPRA said:


> That's because more and more tests are becoming available, not because more and more people are getting it.


It's both, otherwise only tests for antibodies would be turning up positive at such a high rate.


----------



## SG854 (May 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> True, but the flu was never as deadly or infectious as COVID-19 even before we developed shots for it.


1918 Flu, infected 40% of worlds population, killing 50 million. 

Covid 19 so far 316k deaths.


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2020)

SG854 said:


> 1918 Flu, infected 40% of worlds population, killing 50 million.
> 
> Covid 19 so far 316k deaths.


I considered mentioning it, but the Spanish flu is quite different from what we refer to as the (common) flu today.  It's more closely related to swine flu and bird flu.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (May 18, 2020)

Xzi said:


> I have no idea what point it is you're trying to make here.  Not a single governor declared it illegal to take a walk outside during the stay at home order.


Perhaps not entirely illegal here in the US, but only since the pandemic have brainteasers "journalists" tried to make jogging seem racist.


Xzi said:


> Like I said, pick your own expert.  As long as they have even a rudimentary knowledge of infectious diseases, they'll tell you the same damn thing.  Dr. Fauci has been a part of the CDC since the early 80s IIRC, he's served under like ten different presidents.  Nobody needed to learn his name until now because every president other than Trump simply took his advice.


Cite your sources. Until then, here's something.
https://www.facebook.com/529738257415086/posts/1387362808319289/


Xzi said:


> So noble of you, shifting more of society's burdens off of the billionaires and corporations at the top, and back down on to small businesses and individuals already struggling to stay afloat.  /s


Eradicate taxes and limit regulations. It'll be more than manageable.


Xzi said:


> True, but the flu was never as deadly or infectious as COVID-19 even before we developed shots for it.


Infectious? True. Deadly? False.


Xzi said:


> I didn't post any statistics.


I will for you.







Xzi said:


> Under-reporting is under-reporting, regardless of the exact number.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-lowers-coronavirus-death-count


Xzi said:


> That doesn't make any sense.  Issuing the stay at home order later than we should have is exactly what caused so many overwhelmed hospitals.  Fewer people going out means fewer people getting infected.  I haven't heard of any doctors being laid off, but if that is happening, it's surely the result of pure greed at the executive level.


https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-victim-americas-largest-health-systems/story?id=70317683


Xzi said:


> It's both, otherwise only tests for antibodies would be turning up positive at such a high rate.


https://calmatters.org/health/2020/04/nursing-homes-california-covid-19-patients-coronavirus-newsom/


----------



## Xzi (May 18, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> Cite your sources. Until then, here's something.


I gave you multiple options for a source.  CDC, WHO, Fauci, or just your local doctor.  I even lowballed the percentage of testing needed to safely re-open.  Not sure how much more I can do to prove my point.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Eradicate taxes and limit regulations. It'll be more than manageable.


Sure, if you want this country to become a completely unrecognizable oligarchy more akin to China.  Corporations would be more than happy to become our new government and bring back child labor.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Infectious? True. Deadly? False.


We're over 90,000 deaths in the US rofl.  Even one death makes it deadly.  The flu has a mortality rate of right around 0.1%, while COVID-19 is at 6% currently, at least among confirmed cases.

https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html



UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-lowers-coronavirus-death-count


One state over-reporting does not mean other states aren't under-reporting.  In fact, the whole country will continue to under-report until we drastically ramp up our testing capacity.



UltraSUPRA said:


> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-victim-americas-largest-health-systems/story?id=70317683


Like I said, greed and short-sightedness.  The same reasons we won't be any more prepared for the next pandemic.



UltraSUPRA said:


> https://calmatters.org/health/2020/04/nursing-homes-california-covid-19-patients-coronavirus-newsom/


I'm not sure what this article has to do with new infections.  I believe only about two states had infection rates that were actually declining before opening back up.


----------



## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

U.S. has one of the lows rates of death per capita compared to other European counties, so it has a smaller % of deaths relative to population size. But has the highest infection rates & deaths if you count pure numbers without including per capita, which make sense since the U.S. is a much bigger country with a higher population. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52415579

The above link came out last month and Belgium is at the top of the worst country. 

And it looks like it stayed the same because as of 4 days ago Belgium is still the worst following other European countries. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.us...se-on-covid-19-deaths-per-million?context=amp

U.S. gets alot of flak for being crazy where not many is following stay at home orders because of Trump followers. But I look around me and hardly anyone is going out. People are following stay at home orders. And statistics show it also. But then again every country collects statistics in different ways. So apples and apples comparison is not possible.


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2020)

SG854 said:


> U.S. gets alot of flak for being crazy where not many is following stay at home orders because of Trump followers. But I look around me and hardly anyone is going out.


It depends on which state you live in.  Texas and Florida essentially never really enforced stay at home to begin with, and their infection rates are skyrocketing.  Won't surprise me if they stop reporting deaths as COVID-related altogether soon.


----------



## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

Xzi said:


> It depends on which state you live in.  Texas and Florida essentially never really enforced stay at home to begin with, and their infection rates are skyrocketing.  Won't surprise me if they stop reporting deaths as COVID-related altogether soon.


I think one U.S. state is comparable to one European Country. People don't realize how big U.S. is. They think you can easily drive from Texas to California within a few hours like you can between European countries. But that's not the case. 

Comparing Texas with Belgium would probably be a more fair case. But then again not all U.S. is the same following the same rules. So generalizations is bad.


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2020)

SG854 said:


> But then again not all U.S. is the same following the same rules.


Precisely.   The US is much closer to a worst-case scenario than other countries because we had no coordinated federal response.  Just a free-for-all of individual states setting their own individual policies amidst all the chaos and confusion.  And now that we're opening back up across the board, people are going to travel from the most infected states to the least infected and cause a whole new round of infections.


----------



## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Precisely.   The US is much closer to a worst-case scenario than other countries because we had no coordinated federal response.  Just a free-for-all of individual states setting their own individual policies amidst all the chaos and confusion.  And now that we're opening back up across the board, people are going to travel from the most infected states to the least infected and cause a whole new round of infections.


Closer to a Best case and Worst case examples since even with the worst states not following stay at home we still manage a per capita lower then those European countries I listed. Which means the best case examples must be doing extremely well, so well the the worst states aren't able to increase our per capita death rates higher then those European countries.


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2020)

SG854 said:


> Closer to a Best case and Worst case examples since even with the worst states not following stay at home we still manage a per capita lower then those European countries I listed. Which means the best case examples must be doing extremely well, so well the the worst states aren't able to increase our per capita death rates higher then those European countries.


While that is true, the US has a lot more rural areas than most European countries, so measuring per capita is ultimately just a way to make us feel better about our failures.  The goalposts keep getting moved.  First we were told with all confidence that total deaths would be under 50k. Then it was 100k.  Now since we're fast approaching that, it'll be 150k tomorrow.  And 200k a week from then.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (May 19, 2020)

Xzi said:


> I gave you multiple options for a source.  CDC, WHO, Fauci, or just your local doctor.  I even lowballed the percentage of testing needed to safely re-open.  Not sure how much more I can do to prove my point.


What you need to do is provide links. This is an online debate, not a book report. Naming names is not citing sources.


Xzi said:


> Sure, if you want this country to become a completely unrecognizable oligarchy more akin to China.  Corporations would be more than happy to become our new government and bring back child labor.


I said limit regulations, not remove them.


Xzi said:


> We're over 90,000 deaths in the US rofl.  Even one death makes it deadly.  The flu has a mortality rate of right around 0.1%, while COVID-19 is at 6% currently, at least among confirmed cases.
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html
> 
> ...


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html


> New York City [...] said they were now including people who had never tested positive for the virus but were presumed to have died of it.





Xzi said:


> Like I said, greed and short-sightedness.  The same reasons we won't be any more prepared for the next pandemic.


It's basic economics. If nobody's coming, you're not making as much money. If you're not making enough money, it's time to lay off employees.


Xzi said:


> I'm not sure what this article has to do with new infections.


It's why there are so many deaths. Old folks with Flu Bear are forcibly being put in densely-packed nursing homes by the California government, causing it to spread to people who can't survive it. Keep in mind this is the same state that extended the house arrest orders by *three whole months*.


----------



## DJPlace (May 19, 2020)

local burger king in my area is like 50% out of food also.. but they still sell burger and chicken nuggets at least.


----------



## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

Xzi said:


> While that is true, the US has a lot more rural areas than most European countries, so measuring per capita is ultimately just a way to make us feel better about our failures.  The goalposts keep getting moved.  First we were told with all confidence that total deaths would be under 50k. Then it was 100k.  Now since we're fast approaching that, it'll be 150k tomorrow.  And 200k a week from then.


According to this more U.S. are living in Urban areas then Europe. About 8% more. About 82% of population living urban vs 74%. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/270860/urbanization-by-continent/

EU is more densely populated then the U.S. So more chances for the virus to spread compared to U.S. where more people are spaced out. But wouldn't that mean that we don't have to be as strict with Stay at Home policies? We can be a little more lax since the population is more spread out? Minus the highly populated U.S. cities.


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> What you need to do is provide links. This is an online debate, not a book report. Naming names is not citing sources.


Just seems extraordinarily lazy on your part, but okay.  You went from claiming that my sources were too anecdotal and narrow to claiming they were too generalized.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/17/us/coronavirus-testing-states.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/reopen-economy-safely-report-offers-guidance/story?id=70636167

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/how-many-covid-19-tests-are-needed-to-reopen/



			
				factcheck.org said:
			
		

> *Wide Range of Estimates*
> Several groups have attempted to put a figure on how many tests are needed for the U.S. to reopen. On the lower end, researchers at the Harvard Global Health Institute calculated that the U.S. would need to do approximately 500,000 tests per day, as a bare minimum, by May 1 — a figure they have since revised to 900,000 for May 15.
> 
> On the other extreme, there’s Nobel laureate and New York University economist Paul Romer’s plan to test the entire U.S. population once every two weeks, or around 25 million tests a day. He has since raised that to 35 million tests per day, or more, to include daily testing of front-line workers.
> ...


No state except Rhode Island has met the minimum testing requirements to safely re-open, even when compared to the lowest estimates.



UltraSUPRA said:


> I said limit regulations, not remove them.


We've already got a trickle-up economy.  No need to make it even worse for the people at the bottom.



UltraSUPRA said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html


Same response as before still applies, except in this case, it's not that New York is over-reporting, just that their hospitals are overwhelmed and they don't have enough tests for everybody who dies while on a ventilator or with a high fever.  You'll get a few cases here and there that turn out not to have been Corona in the long run, but it's still better to be safe than sorry.  We certainly don't want to be pulling a China.



UltraSUPRA said:


> It's basic economics. If nobody's coming, you're not making as much money. If you're not making enough money, it's time to lay off employees.


No, it's time to divorce our healthcare system from the profit motive.  This level of greed is unsustainable at the best of times, let alone during a pandemic.



UltraSUPRA said:


> It's why there are so many deaths. Old folks with Flu Bear are forcibly being put in densely-packed nursing homes by the California government, causing it to spread to people who can't survive it. Keep in mind this is the same state that extended the house arrest orders by *three whole months*.


Nursing homes are ground zero in every state.  They don't have the same rules and regulations as hospitals, so they end up being the perfect petri dish for the virus.



SG854 said:


> EU is more densely populated then the U.S. So more chances for the virus to spread compared to U.S. where more people are spaced out. But wouldn't that mean that we don't have to be as strict with Stay at Home policies? We can be a little more lax since the population is more spread out? Minus the highly populated U.S. cities.


That's kind of what's happening right now, and so far the results are not good.  In some states you've got cities and counties that are still under stay at home orders, while other nearby counties are reopening.  What happens then is you get people who are supposed to be in lockdown traveling one county over and mingling with all its residents, effectively spreading the virus.


----------



## UltraSUPRA (May 19, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Just seems extraordinarily lazy on your part, but okay.


That's me for ya.


Xzi said:


> No state except Rhode Island has met the minimum testing requirements to safely re-open, even when compared to the lowest estimates.


You'll notice that these researchers say that it should be the whole country, not every individual state. Going by HRHI, we're all set, what with us doing 1.5M tests per day and their goal being 900K.


Xzi said:


> We've already got a trickle-up economy.  No need to make it even worse for the people at the bottom.


Didn't I already say abolish taxes?


Xzi said:


> Same response as before still applies, except in this case, it's not that New York is over-reporting, just that their hospitals are overwhelmed and they don't have enough tests for everybody who dies while on a ventilator or with a high fever.  You'll get a few cases here and there that turn out not to have been Corona in the long run, but it's still better to be safe than sorry.  We certainly don't want to be pulling a China.


How does expressing our rights as American citizens count as being like China?


Xzi said:


> No, it's time to divorce our healthcare system from the profit motive.  This level of greed is unsustainable at the best of times, let alone during a pandemic.


In a Utopian society, I'd agree.
How many people do you know that would willingly work hard for nothing?


Xzi said:


> Nursing homes are ground zero in every state.  They don't have the same rules and regulations as hospitals, so they end up being the perfect petri dish for the virus.


Are you saying we should shut down retirement homes?
Are you saying we should kick old people out of their homes?
Are you saying old people should be homeless?
Are you saying old people should live outside when you're trying to keep those of us who are asymptomatic inside for their safety?
Are you saying old people should be exposed to Flu Bear?
_Do you want people to die?!_

The people who are vulnerable are the only ones who should be under the stay-at-home order. These people include the elderly and people with other medical conditions. That's it.


----------



## Xzi (May 19, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> You'll notice that these researchers say that it should be the whole country, not every individual state. Going by HRHI, we're all set, what with us doing 1.5M tests per day and their goal being 900K.


Not sure where you're getting that figure from, we're still under 300k tests a day as of May 1st.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Didn't I already say abolish taxes?


Which would overwhelmingly benefit the rich and corporations.  The poor don't pay a whole lot in taxes, but they do rely on taxpayer-funded programs to survive.



UltraSUPRA said:


> How does expressing our rights as American citizens count as being like China?


I think we got our wires crossed somewhere, that a was a reply in response to our discussion on under/over reporting the rate of new infections and deaths from COVID.  China has been caught out under-reporting to make their handling of the pandemic look better, just as some states have.



UltraSUPRA said:


> In a Utopian society, I'd agree.
> How many people do you know that would willingly work hard for nothing?


Do you really believe doctors and nurses don't get paid in Scandinavian countries?  Somehow America is just about the last first-world nation on Earth that hasn't figured out a proper balance in regard to valuing human lives over profits for useless executives.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Are you saying we should shut down retirement homes?
> Are you saying we should kick old people out of their homes?
> Are you saying old people should be homeless?
> Are you saying old people should live outside when you're trying to keep those of us who are asymptomatic inside for their safety?
> ...


I didn't say any of that, I was just stating a fact.  We could definitely benefit by requiring higher standards for nursing homes and the people that work in them, though.



UltraSUPRA said:


> The people who are vulnerable are the only ones who should be under the stay-at-home order. These people include the elderly and people with other medical conditions. That's it.


Literally everybody is vulnerable until we have a vaccine.  Contracting the virus is a roll of the dice no matter how young you are or what shape you're in.  Even children are showing reactions to the virus which can cause heart attacks or other complications weeks after symptoms initially subside.


----------



## Viri (May 19, 2020)

I guess today I'll go to Wendy's and buy a Hamburger today, even though they're always fucking cold when I buy them. The small corner stores down the street from me always had toilet paper and cleaning supplies. I'm surprised my city didn't force them to shut down too. I like to buy cheese steaks from them, because they only charge 3 dollars.

Also, the way my state handled retirement homes is utterly revolting. My state has nearly 4.7k deaths, and 2.5k of them were in retirement homes.


----------



## Seliph (May 19, 2020)

Friendly reminder that despite the fact that the US population is about 14% of the world population (that's 328.2m people), the US accounts for 28% of all coronavirus deaths (318k and rising) and 32% (4.8m and also rising) of all cases.

Now those numbers aren't 100% accurate, but they're based on this.

Just something to think about...

Also Vietnam, a nation with 95.54 million citizens (for comparison, that's about 1/3 of the US population) has had only had 324 cases and 0 deaths. I could list other countries as well, but I think this is a pretty solid comparison.

Burgers suck anyways, Wendy's sucks. The whole fast-food market sucks. All the more reason for people to switch to healthier and more sustainable diets. I hope the whole fast-food industry crashes and burns.

Edit: also look at India. They have a population of 1.353 billion. That's about 3x the population of the US. India has had only 101k cases compared to the US's 4.8m and only 3,163 deaths compared to the US's 318k. Clearly the US is doing something horribly wrong.


----------



## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Friendly reminder that despite the fact that the US population is about 14% of the world population (that's 328.2m people), the US accounts for 28% of all coronavirus deaths (318k and rising) and 32% (4.8m and also rising) of all cases.
> 
> Now those numbers aren't 100% accurate, but they're based on this.
> 
> ...


318k is too high. @Xzi posted the correct numbers earlier. Its more around 90k. On your link change the search results to all regions and it'll say 90k. 

You can make healthy foods with meat. And burgers don't have to be unhealthy. If we have a meat shortage neither markets or fast food places will serve meat. And fast food isn't so bad if you eat only sometimes, like chocolates and sugar isn't bad if you eat it sometimes. Live a little, enjoy life, have a little chocolate and fast food once in a while. And sometimes you need the convenience of a quick meal when you are in a hurry. They are here to stay.


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## Seliph (May 19, 2020)

SG854 said:


> 318k is too high. @Xzi posted the correct numbers earlier. Its more around 90k. On your link change the search results to all regions and it'll say 90k.
> 
> You can make healthy foods with meat. And burgers don't have to be unhealthy. If we have a meat shortage neither markets or fast food places will serve meat. And fast food isn't so bad if you eat only sometimes, like chocolates and sugar isn't bad if you eat it sometimes. Live a little, enjoy life, have a little chocolate and fast food once in a while. And sometimes you need the convenience of a quick meal when you are in a hurry. They are here to stay.


Ah, you're right about the 90k, my bad. That's still pretty appalling compared to India and Vietnam's numbers.

I agree you can make healthy foods with meat, you can make healthy burgers, that's not really the point. My main gripe with fast food isn't that it is unhealthy (though that is a factor), it's the way the industry treats its workers and customers. I don't want to type out an essay, but I will say that the working conditions in fast food restaurants are abysmal. Workers are over-worked and underpaid. There is no upwards mobility in the industry. The fast-food industry (like every other industry, but fast-food especially) is built on the exploitation of its workers and the perpetuation of poverty. Often people who face poverty have no food alternatives but cheap fast food. Not everyone has the luxury to eat fast-food "only sometimes". For some people, that is the only meal they can afford. This is the reason why obesity is such a problem in the US, just look up food deserts. But fast-food corps don't care, because they make billions a year off of their impoverished workers and customers.

TL;DR, fast-food is an industry of oppression and the perpetuation of poverty. It is an inhuman industry that should be destroyed.


HOWEVER, don't let what I've said distract you from my main point. The US is woefully behind other countries (India, Vietnam) in its handling (or mishandling) of Coronavirus. I think the main factors for this mishandling are corporate greed, uneducated populace, incompetent government (both federal and state-side), and ultimately Capitalism.

When you look at countries with socialized health-care (India, Cuba, Vietnam, etc), it's pretty self-evident that they've done a much better job than the US at combating Covid-19. 

Just something to think about.


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## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Ah, you're right about the 90k, my bad. That's still pretty appalling compared to India and Vietnam's numbers.
> 
> I agree you can make healthy foods with meat, you can make healthy burgers, that's not really the point. My main gripe with fast food isn't that it is unhealthy (though that is a factor), it's the way the industry treats its workers and customers. I don't want to type out an essay, but I will say that the working conditions in fast food restaurants are abysmal. Workers are over-worked and underpaid. There is no upwards mobility in the industry. The fast-food industry (like every other industry, but fast-food especially) is built on the exploitation of its workers and the perpetuation of poverty. Often people who face poverty have no food alternatives but cheap fast food. Not everyone has the luxury to eat fast-food "only sometimes". For some people, that is the only meal they can afford. This is the reason why obesity is such a problem in the US, just look up food deserts. But fast-food corps don't care, because they make billions a year off of their impoverished workers and customers.
> 
> ...


If in a food dessert fast food is the only meal they can afford, and you hope the whole industry crashes and burns, then where will they eat at? Where will they get food for cheap?


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## Seliph (May 19, 2020)

SG854 said:


> If in a food dessert fast food is the only meal they can afford, and you hope the whole industry crashes and burns, then where will they eat at? Where will they get food for cheap?


Again, I'm citing Vietnam for this (because they do most things better). Community gardens. Look it up. They're practically free and anyone has access to them. They provide much healthier alternatives to anything the fast-food industry puts out. I highly encourage you to do some research into it.


(copy and pasting this to reiterate my main point)
HOWEVER, don't let what I've said distract you from my main point. The US is woefully behind other countries (India, Vietnam) in its handling (or mishandling) of Coronavirus. I think the main factors for this mishandling are corporate greed, uneducated populace, incompetent government (both federal and state-side), and ultimately Capitalism.

When you look at countries with socialized health-care (India, Cuba, Vietnam, etc), it's pretty self-evident that they've done a much better job than the US at combating Covid-19.

Just something to think about.


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## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Again, I'm citing Vietnam for this (because they do most things better). Community gardens. Look it up. They're practically free and anyone has access to them. They provide much healthier alternatives to anything the fast-food industry puts out. I highly encourage you to do some research into it.
> 
> 
> (copy and pasting this to reiterate my main point)
> ...


And community gardens can't be done while fast food places also co exist? Why haven't people started community gardens already in food dessert places?


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## Seliph (May 19, 2020)

SG854 said:


> And community gardens can't be done while fast food places also co exist? Why haven't people started community gardens already in food dessert places?


You realize the people in food deserts are poor, right? They can't just create a garden at their whim. 1. they don't have the money, 2. cities don't take to kindly to the creation of things like community gardens, they usually get destroyed (plus there's little room for community gardens to begin with in most impoverished areas).

Community gardens don't generate profit. The fast-food industry doesn't like that, they lobby against community gardens. Capitalists, in general, don't like community gardens because they don't generate a profit. Why would a capitalist government invest in the creation of community gardens if they make billions and billions of dollars off the fast-food industry?

So yes, "community gardens can't be done while fast food places also co exist".

Again, do your research. I doubt you would have these questions if you actually researched community gardens.


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## SG854 (May 19, 2020)

Seliph said:


> You realize the people in food deserts are poor, right? They can't just create a garden at their whim. 1. they don't have the money, 2. cities don't take to kindly to the creation of things like community gardens, they usually get destroyed (plus there's little room for community gardens to begin with in most impoverished areas).
> 
> Community gardens don't generate profit. The fast-food industry doesn't like that, they lobby against community gardens. Capitalists, in general, don't like community gardens because they don't generate a profit. Why would a capitalist government invest in the creation of community gardens if they make billions and billions of dollars off the fast-food industry?
> 
> ...


Then how is a community garden a solution when the fast food industry crashes and burns if the root of the problem is the capitalist gov, which is beyond the fast food industry? How would people get food in a food dessert?


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## Seliph (May 19, 2020)

SG854 said:


> Then how is a community garden a solution when the fast food industry crashes and burns if the root of the problem is the capitalist gov, which is beyond the fast food industry? How would people get food in a food dessert?


That's the crux of the problem. Community gardens are a socialist creation. They are the socialization of free food. Fast-food is a capitalist creation, it is the privatization of cheap food. These two creations fundamentally cannot coexist under capitalism (or socialism).

Community gardens ultimately cannot fix food deserts, because capitalism does not allow for the creation of community gardens, and food deserts are a capitalist creation.

Simply put, community gardens cannot be created under capitalism. Capitalism does not allow it. So what's the solution? How can we create community gardens?

*Socialism.

If we cannot create community gardens under capitalism, then we will create community gardens under socialism. *

Again, I cannot stress enough, *do your research.
*
If you want info on how this kind of stuff works, read Peter Kropotkin's _The Conquest of Bread. _Or, if you don't like reading, you should check out this hour-long video series that basically reiterates all of Kropotkin's ideas, but in a more easily digestible form. This should answer any questions you have, or at least give you a general idea of where I'm coming from. Or, if you don't have enough time for either of those (which I guarantee you *do* have enough time), don't look at either of those links and remain ignorant, it's your choice.

This kind of thinking can be applied to other ideas, socialized health care, socialized housing, socialized labor, etc.

I know socialism is a big scary word, but that's only because most people don't understand it.

*Do your research and I promise this will make sense.*


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## BORTZ (May 19, 2020)

Notice how Burger King still has burgers??? We've always been eating Impossible Whoppers.


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## Xzi (May 19, 2020)

BORTZ said:


> Notice how Burger King still has burgers??? We've always been eating Impossible Whoppers.


Nah just anus meat, same thing McDonald's serves.  The Impossible Whopper tastes way better than anything meat-based on Burger King's menu.


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## UltraSUPRA (May 23, 2020)

Xzi said:


> Not sure where you're getting that figure from, we're still under 300k tests a day as of May 1st.


I did math a few pages ago.


Xzi said:


> Which would overwhelmingly benefit the rich and corporations.  The poor don't pay a whole lot in taxes, but they do rely on taxpayer-funded programs to survive.


A large amount of welfare recipients are more than capable of working.


Xzi said:


> I think we got our wires crossed somewhere, that a was a reply in response to our discussion on under/over reporting the rate of new infections and deaths from COVID.  China has been caught out under-reporting to make their handling of the pandemic look better, just as some states have.


How are you even sure if we're under-reporting?


Xzi said:


> Do you really believe doctors and nurses don't get paid in Scandinavian countries?  Somehow America is just about the last first-world nation on Earth that hasn't figured out a proper balance in regard to valuing human lives over profits for useless executives.





Xzi said:


> I didn't say any of that, I was just stating a fact.  We could definitely benefit by requiring higher standards for nursing homes and the people that work in them, though.


It's the governors that are forcing these patients into these nursing homes. Standards won't do much.


Xzi said:


> Literally everybody is vulnerable until we have a vaccine.  Contracting the virus is a roll of the dice no matter how young you are or what shape you're in.  Even children are showing reactions to the virus which can cause heart attacks or other complications weeks after symptoms initially subside.


Hydroxychloroquine.

Oh, one more thing. That Mr. Dr. Prof. Fauci, PHD. guy you've been talking about said we need to reopen. https://www.foxnews.com/health/fauc...ome-orders-could-cause-irreparable-damage.amp


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## Xzi (May 23, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I did math a few pages ago.


There's no need to do any math lol, just source it.  We were only doing 150k tests a day as of April 20, somehow I seriously doubt we increased testing capacity by six times in just one month.



UltraSUPRA said:


> A large amount of welfare recipients are more than capable of working.


A large amount of welfare recipients DO work.  They're just paid too little to live on, let alone support a family on.



UltraSUPRA said:


> How are you even sure if we're under-reporting?


https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshua...-19-deaths-in-the-us-and-europe/#6196a0182d79

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/202...-covid-19-results-blurring-the-full-picture#1

https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...-of-coronavirus-deaths-is-missing-some-cases/



UltraSUPRA said:


>



Canada is far from the only example of a country that does healthcare better than the US.  Also PragerU is garbage, about as trustworthy as Rush Limbaugh after he's swallowed a fist full of pills.



UltraSUPRA said:


> It's the governors that are forcing these patients into these nursing homes. Standards won't do much.


There is only so much room in hospitals, and only so many resources which can be spared. Of course improving the standards of nursing homes to be more like hospitals would reduce infection rates, that's just common sense.  Might be too late for this pandemic, but it's never too early to start preparing for the next one.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Hydroxychloroquine.


Is not a cure or a vaccine.  It's an anti-malaria drug, and the most complete studies we have on it so far show it actually increases the likelihood of death when taken for COVID-19.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Oh, one more thing. That Mr. Dr. Prof. Fauci, PHD. guy you've been talking about said we need to reopen. https://www.foxnews.com/health/fauc...ome-orders-could-cause-irreparable-damage.amp


Nobody was suggesting we never re-open, just that we do it safely.  We are not meeting Dr. Fauci's standard for tests-per-day necessary to safely re-open, nor anybody else's standards.


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## notimp (May 24, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> A large amount of welfare recipients are more than capable of working.


We are heading into a recession.

What work? People arent consuming as they did before the Covid crisis, industry hasnt innovated into anything meaningful in what feels like decades, and is focused on automation and digitization to outcompete low labor costs in the two most important trading partners 'of the future' for the US (India and Mexico), and the innovative sector everyone is focused on sells fake relationships, and fake 'you still matter socially, if you make virtual connections' to aging women.

Thats the booming industry, because we want to pacify as many people as possible with fake reputation.

Thats our society heading into the recession.

If you see something I dont, please let me know. I'd like to see any of the opportunity you are seeing. 

When I read the usual consultancy agents predictions, every single one of them says, that new jobs are mostly to be had in fields that remove more jobs than they produce, and that their individual booms also will only last about ten years. Millennials were forced to overconsume (no savings), so recession didn't hit earlier, now its hitting and they have no savings. (Statistically speaking.)

States are pumping credit into the economy, that currently still benefites billionaires, and not SME's and has a tough time reaching the real economy. Again.

Oh yes, and oil is running out longterm, so be glad if you stil can enjoy 10 years of growth in some nice industry cutting white color jobs.

(Electricity comes out of the socket, and jobs out of the market complexity level, much..  )


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## Waygeek (May 25, 2020)

SG854 said:


> No, never said that.



You DIRECTLY implied it. Go and learn about implicating statements and then deal with it. God bless ya.



SG854 said:


> I know myself and what I meant more then you. Unless you know me more then I know myself.



I am well aware of your laughable politics from your other posts. And if you think we can't tell you're pushing Gump's 'let's kill another 50,000 just so we can reopen' rhetoric you're hopelessly naive



SG854 said:


> If in a food dessert fast food is the only meal they can afford, and you hope the whole industry crashes and burns, then where will they eat at?



Exhibit A... at least... I think it is... because this ain't English.


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## SG854 (May 25, 2020)

Waygeek said:


> You DIRECTLY implied it. Go and learn about implicating statements and then deal with it. God bless ya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wow, late response. I was already over it. 

Do you want to understand people or do you want to argue with people? That is a big problem with you I noticed from you talking with other people here. And it's going to get you into alot of trouble getting along with people. I just hope you don't act like this outside of the internet when you speak to people in person. 

It's like that naggy bitching girlfriend who just wants to argue all the time. Just wants to argue argue argue without understanding what the person is trying to tell you. 

I already told you what I meant. And you just want to argue. 



Waygeek said:


> I am well aware of your laughable politics from your other posts. And if you think we can't tell you're pushing Gump's 'let's kill another 50,000 just so we can reopen' rhetoric you're hopelessly naive



And are you basing this on posts I made weeks ago? People opinions change all the time. What I wrote here 2 years ago or a few weeks ago may or may not be my opinion today. That's how the scientific method works right? You update and change your opinions based on new information that you find. 

Earlier I said I agree with what notimp said. 
And No, we should follow what scientists say when its OK to open up the economy with the least amount of damage. And we should freely talk about it, question what they say, then debate to see if your own perspectives change. That's the only way people can figure things out.

Seriously I have no Idea what the fuck you are arguing about since the stuff you are accusing me of believing I don't actually believe. So I don't know what fuck and I'm like uh ok?


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## UltraSUPRA (May 27, 2020)

Xzi said:


> There's no need to do any math lol, just source it.  We were only doing 150k tests a day as of April 20, somehow I seriously doubt we increased testing capacity by six times in just one month.


I think getting tests put is a top priority. Besides, don't you remember when there were tests sent out that were infected?


Xzi said:


> A large amount of welfare recipients DO work.  They're just paid too little to live on, let alone support a family on.


It's based on how hard you work. The welfare recipients who do work often don't work very hard because they're already getting more than enough money to sustain their families...and we're paying for it.


Xzi said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshua...-19-deaths-in-the-us-and-europe/#6196a0182d79
> 
> https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/202...-covid-19-results-blurring-the-full-picture#1
> 
> https://www.tampabay.com/news/healt...-of-coronavirus-deaths-is-missing-some-cases/


It makes perfect sense to only include comfirmed cases. It's better than overblowing the numbers and holding back society longer; that has had a far more devastating impact than Flu Bear would.


Xzi said:


> Canada is far from the only example of a country that does healthcare better than the US.


Give me one example of a """""free""""" healthcare system where you don't have to wait months for operations.


Xzi said:


> Also PragerU is garbage, about as trustworthy as Rush Limbaugh after he's swallowed a fist full of pills.


Did you even watch the video?


Xzi said:


> There is only so much room in hospitals, and only so many resources which can be spared.


Here's a benefit to our healthcare system: just go to a different hospital.


Xzi said:


> Of course improving the standards of nursing homes to be more like hospitals would reduce infection rates, that's just common sense.  Might be too late for this pandemic, but it's never too early to start preparing for the next one.


Okay. What happens when an old homeless person gets Flu Bear and, under that free healthcare plan, can't go to a hospital?


Xzi said:


> Is not a cure or a vaccine.  It's an anti-malaria drug, and the most complete studies we have on it so far show it actually increases the likelihood of death when taken for COVID-19.


I've never heard of Chron. It could easily just be clickbait. Besides, Trump took it daily for weeks and he's still perfectly fine.
That article also mentioned that there was a cure.


Xzi said:


> Nobody was suggesting we never re-open, just that we do it safely.  We are not meeting Dr. Fauci's standard for tests-per-day necessary to safely re-open, nor anybody else's standards.


What if it's too late before those standards are met?


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## Xzi (May 27, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> I think getting tests put is a top priority. Besides, don't you remember when there were tests sent out that were infected?


I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  One manufacturer fucked up so we should just stop testing?  No, simply use a different test manufacturer.



UltraSUPRA said:


> It's based on how hard you work. The welfare recipients who do work often don't work very hard because they're already getting more than enough money to sustain their families...and we're paying for it.


It has nothing to do with how hard they work.  A full-time job is a full-time job, and most minimum-wage positions are much more strenuous than desk work.  When corporations under-pay their employees, the taxpayers have to make up for it.  So get pissed at those corporations, not the people struggling to make ends meet.



UltraSUPRA said:


> It makes perfect sense to only include comfirmed cases.


We don't have the testing capacity to confirm every case, that should be obvious by this point in the conversation.  There's a 99.9% chance that anybody who dies from a lack of oxygen right now had the Rona, so advocating for only counting them if they tested positive is the same thing as advocating for under-reporting.  Which would make us no better than China.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Give me one example of a """""free""""" healthcare system where you don't have to wait months for operations.


There have been plenty of instances of people waiting months for operations in the US, while still being forced into bankruptcy to pay for them.  You can't just make healthy organs magically appear from thin air, so you could find this type of anecdotal evidence anywhere in the world.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Did you even watch the video?


No, for the same reason I don't watch other sensationalist garbage like cable news.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Here's a benefit to our healthcare system: just go to a different hospital.


Did you forget we're in the middle of a pandemic for a moment?  Many hospitals are overwhelmed, and there are plenty of areas in the US where you only have one hospital for every hundred square miles or so.



UltraSUPRA said:


> Okay. What happens when an old homeless person gets Flu Bear and, under that free healthcare plan, can't go to a hospital?


What do you mean "can't go to a hospital?"  Even without any healthcare coverage you can still go to a hospital as it stands now, it's just that the taxpayers end up footing the bill in the long run.  The only difference with universal coverage is that the government negotiates that bill down to a reasonable cost, saving taxpayers money.



UltraSUPRA said:


> I've never heard of Chron. It could easily just be clickbait. Besides, Trump took it daily for weeks and he's still perfectly fine.  That article also mentioned that there was a cure.


The study was done by The Lancet Medical Journal, which is a respected source.  You're free to look it up directly without going through any news site.  And this might shock you, but Trump is full of shit.  He never took it, a narcissist like him would never risk his own life like that.  It's widely speculated he has stock in the manufacturer of hydroxychloroquin, and that his push for others to take it is just another money-making scheme.

There is no mention of a cure in the article, that would make national news.  The fastest a vaccine has ever been created was around 5 years, so even a 1 year timeline is extremely optimistic.



UltraSUPRA said:


> What if it's too late before those standards are met?


If the government had acted properly from the beginning of this pandemic and froze all obligations for individuals and small businesses, there would be no such thing as "too late."  It's only because America treats our workforce as disposable, unlike the rest of the world, that we're being given the dystopian choice of returning to work and exposing ourselves to the virus versus staying home and running out of food/necessities.


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