# Games that require serious non game skills to play?



## x65943 (Jul 7, 2020)

Duolingo, can we call that a game?


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Jul 7, 2020)

Only games come to mind is 
Oregon trail
Math blasters
Reader Rabbit
Word Munchers

and last but not least, 
Mavis beacon teaches typing.


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## arjunpatel (Jul 7, 2020)

OG Doom on hurt me plenty challenging sure but easy


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## x65943 (Jul 7, 2020)

Sonic Angel Knight said:


> Only games come to mind is
> Oregon trail
> Math blasters
> Reader Rabbit
> ...


What about Mario Teaches Typing?

Man I was so bad at that game as a kid


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Jul 7, 2020)

x65943 said:


> What about Mario Teaches Typing?


Well I guess is better a iconic character like mario teaches you how to type. But mavis beacon seem more structured in many things. Like even the number pad, and improving words per minute. What was mario going to teach me?


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 7, 2020)

Would Cyber Punk Bartender count?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



x65943 said:


> What about Mario Teaches Typing?
> 
> Man I was so bad at that game as a kid


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## KlasseyKreations (Jul 7, 2020)

Johnny Castaway. I think it was a screensaver, but I used to enjoy watching the guy do various things on his island. It required serious retina burning skills to play.


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## VartioArtel (Jul 7, 2020)

There was one game where you had to answer puzzles, Stanly Parable or something like that? Had to decode all sorts of ciphers and stuff.

Then there's the "Nonary Game" Trilogy where real life knowledge/puzzle solving skills came in handy.


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## JuanBaNaNa (Jul 7, 2020)

Well... I'm more an Action / Platformer guy.
So I'm good with fast paced games.

This is the main reason why I fucking hate RPG's in general (except *Pokemon* as the Type Mechanics is definitely interesting)
I hate the fact that I have to be patient / have good luck to actually win a battle whereas a Platformer or a Shoot'm'up / Run&Gun / Fighting game is based on pure skill and not on just how fast you decided to defend or attack.

Can we call *Colors!* a videogame? If so... I guess it becomes fairly easy to point out that this game isn't for everybody (or maybe it is) as the user has to develop motor skills, hand/eye coordination and probably build up studies and learn drawing theories to truly enjoy the game.

On a more pesonal side... *Sudoku / Mahjong / Picross / Dr.Mario* are games that are impossible to me, because I literally don't have the pattience to actually play further than 5 minutes or even less than that.
*Tetris* is a good puzzle game because, again, it's based on skill and not pattience as the examples above.

Other games that I've found impossible to play are old LucasFilms DOS games such as Monkey Island and other point and click similars.



Maybe I'm just dumb.

On a side note: 
Games with puzzles that you can win involving SKILL and not pattience, and that I've personally enjoyed a lot could be:

*999*
*AGAIN*
*Murder on the Titanic*


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## RyRyIV (Jul 7, 2020)

As a kid, I got to use my basic comprehension and reading skills to save a zoo with Putt-Putt


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## TobiasAmaranth (Jul 7, 2020)

Speaking of Math Blasters, I remember a super-old computer game about climbing a mountain and had educational stuff as part of its means of progression. Either typing or math or something along those lines. I played it at a friend's place and had lots of fun but I never knew the name and it was early enough in my childhood that I can't properly remember any of the details aside from 'mountain' and 'educational'.

We're talking early 1990s.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Jul 7, 2020)

Typing of the Dead as more of a "game" and less of an edutainment type deal as most listed above. 

Kerbal Space Program also might count, if you want to get any kind of far in that game you'll really need to understand the mechanics and physics of space travel which I would call a "non-game skill" personally. While of course you don't necessarily _have_ to do any of the in-depth math to do well in the "game", it certainly helps a hell of a lot when you do more advanced missions and maneuvers. 

Beyond that the only thing that really comes to mind are edutainment games, Math Blaster, Zoombinis, Reader Rabbit, Putt Putt and other such games.


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## TheCasualties (Jul 7, 2020)

Myst was a good one. Figuring out puzzles and all that. I had a small notebook dedicated to that game. My father and I sometimes worked together trying to solve some of the mysteries. 
7th Guest was another of my favorites back then, but that's already mentioned in OP.

Mario Teaches Typing was so hard for me! I could never get past the water level.


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 7, 2020)

KlasseyKreations said:


> Johnny Castaway. I think it was a screensaver, but I used to enjoy watching the guy do various things on his island. It required serious retina burning skills to play.



If you use Wallpaper Engine on your PC, you can get a video recreation of it as a wallpaper!


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## THEELEMENTKH (Jul 7, 2020)

I'd say Ace Attorney


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 7, 2020)

TheCasualties said:


> Myst was a good one. Figuring out puzzles and all that. I had a small notebook dedicated to that game. My father and I sometimes worked together trying to solve some of the mysteries.
> 7th Guest was another of my favorites back then, but that's already mentioned in OP.
> 
> Mario Teaches Typing was so hard for me! I could never get past the water level.



Huh, I guess Mario Teaches Typing has a little more going on than just typing. What, is it like what Typing of the Dead is to House of the Dead 2 or whichever HOTD game on the DC it was based off of that used the keyboard!?


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## Dust2dust (Jul 7, 2020)

JuanMena said:


> On a more pesonal side... *Sudoku / Mahjong / Picross / Dr.Mario* are games that are impossible to me, because I literally don't have the pattience to actually play further than 5 minutes or even less than that.
> *Tetris* is a good puzzle game because, again, it's based on skill and not pattience as the examples above.


I wouldn't say these four games require patience.  Dr.Mario is very similar to Tetris for me.  Mahjong (at least the western version we all know) is just a match 2 game. So probably takes a bit of patience to find a match.  But Sudoku and Picross are logic and deduction games.  So minimal patience involved if you're a fast thinker or have a very logical thought process.


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## TheCasualties (Jul 7, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> Huh, I guess Mario Teaches Typing has a little more going on than just typing. What, is it like what Typing of the Dead is to House of the Dead 2 or whichever HOTD game on the DC it was based off of that used the keyboard!?


It was pretty much just typing, but you had to be fast enough to not lose. Here's the level I never finished. 

If I went back and played today, I'm sure I could finish it. I've gotten way better at speed typing than when I was 5-7[?] years old.

I'll have to look into Typing of the Dead, never even heard of it before today.


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## Deleted User (Jul 7, 2020)

this is not entirely the game's fault, but i seem to strugle in csgo due to not knowing portugese, everytime i SoloQ i end up with a bunch of brazillians, since i only speak english and spanish, and csgo is a very comunication heavy game, we can't really coordinate semiadvanced strategies, one of every 5 or so games one of them will try to make an advanced strategy and i'll get kicked because i didn't understand what they wanted me to do and as such did not do it


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## tmnr1992 (Jul 7, 2020)

The typing of the dead.


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## Silent_Gunner (Jul 7, 2020)

TheCasualties said:


> It was pretty much just typing, but you had to be fast enough to not lose. Here's the level I never finished.
> 
> If I went back and played today, I'm sure I could finish it. I've gotten way better at speed typing than when I was 5-7[?] years old.
> 
> I'll have to look into Typing of the Dead, never even heard of it before today.




It's basically House of the Dead 2 on DC, but you have to type in a bunch of weird shit to kill the zombies. It used the official DC keyboard that I think was more or less meant for chatting online in stuff like PSO and the like, but the only reason I knew of it was that one of my older brothers had it and a bunch of other stuff for the DC at the time.


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## D34DL1N3R (Jul 7, 2020)

The Professor Layton series.


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## T-hug (Jul 7, 2020)

Fibbage! It requires no gaming skill whatsoever but can teach you how to lie convincingly IRL. The game usually ends up pretty hilarious too


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## BlastedGuy9905 (Jul 7, 2020)

Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes. You need to know rhow to communicate efficiently or you're fucked.


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## Pippin666 (Jul 7, 2020)

Icy Tower

Pip'


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## gudenau (Jul 7, 2020)

Would be really cool to have a game with VMs that teach network security and some basic Linux stuff.

Lockpicking would be interesting, no real way to get the feedback though.


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## strayofthesun (Jul 7, 2020)

I'm sure plenty of people here first looked at the Braille alphabet trying to catch the Regi's in Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald. Not exactly a skill but definitely something that most people playing a visual game were unfamiliar with.


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## ParanoidPenguin (Jul 7, 2020)

Just about any game from Zachtronics. A whole game around a made up assembly language, sign me up!


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## Teletron1 (Jul 7, 2020)

D


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## Gunstorm (Jul 7, 2020)

It's a game or an interactive movie?


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## ShroomKing (Jul 7, 2020)

ParanoidPenguin said:


> Just about any game from Zachtronics. A whole game around a made up assembly language, sign me up!


^This

I didn't know about the other games but Shenzhen I/O is great for practicing/learning assembly language and some electrical engineering


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## TheCasualties (Jul 7, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


>




The characters all running around with keyboards strapped to their chest is hilarious (skip to 7:58).  That game actually looks quite fun!

*Baba is you* is another great logic/puzzle game that might fit this discussion. The later levels can get crazy, I'm decent at logic puzzles but that game seriously takes it to a whole new level. There are so many secrets too!

You can become other things, even the entire level! But that's just a small percent of the crazy stuff. This should give a good idea what the game is like.


There is also a prototype version that is free on itch.io https://hempuli.itch.io/baba-is-you


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## elcarajos666 (Jul 7, 2020)

Sonic Forces. Just jump and boost.


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## gamefan5 (Jul 7, 2020)

The Animal Crossing games.


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## The Real Jdbye (Jul 7, 2020)

Dance Dance Revolution?

Shenzhen I/O gets pretty in depth with circuit design and coding, I guess that counts.


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## Zense (Jul 7, 2020)

Waifu sims: they require serious social skills to master......



gamefan5 said:


> The Animal Crossing games.


Want to elaborate on what it thought you? Did you manage to pay your mortage by selling fruit?

I was gonna mention Fez as soon as I read the title. Not gonna spoil, but its one of the few games where I resorted to looking up the answer for those last secrets. And I also don't regret doing it which is very unusual... Parts of that games secrets are impossible unless you have the very specific required knowledge. Not a surprise when it's about cryptography and breaking codes and finding patterns.

I passed the entrance test to become an air traffic controller and I was very surprised how similar atc games are for parts of that test.

I feel edutainment games don't count as much since it's so obvious. Like Dr Kawashima, Brain Age. Then there  are all the fitness games like Wii Fit etc. Rhythm games if you've played an instrument or good at dancing. Karaoke games for singers. Ofc none of these need you to have those skills but you get a big advantage. Most point n click games benefit from you knowing stuff, but they also have their sheer number of random puzzles. (Shoes on a ladder anyone?).

I remember a very specific side quest in Kotor where you were asked to solve an arithmetic problem. I guess math came in handy there but that happens very often in rpgs where you often just do addition or subtraction for equipment, selling, plus the more "advanced" if there are bonus stats and drop rates, hits, crits, res etc. It's obvious that if you play dnd a lot many systems in rpgs will be familiar. Not sure if that counts, since many board games have video game counterparts.


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## Deleted member 512337 (Jul 8, 2020)

Clubhouse games 51 world wide classics


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## Axido (Jul 8, 2020)

I tend to like playing games that require and train real life skills in order to learn or maintain said skills.

I learn playing guitar using Rocksmith (and yes, that's totally a game, since you could see it as Guitar Hero on steroids). I played Dance Central in order to learn a few dance moves. Beat Saber and that Kinect workout game Your Shape - Fitness Evolved keep me in shape. Playing plain Pokémon games with adjusted language settings actually tought me a good amount of Spanish. And I guess the majority of my English came from games as well. The Professor Layton series of games even had a few puzzles that I've come across again now that I study computer science. Shenzhen I/O has already been mentioned. Hacknet, Human Ressource Machine and Seven Billion Humans are other examples I played.

And just out of fun I'd like to throw a mention of Custom Maid 3D and its Ju-C Air controller into the mix (and even though I considered getting this game, it never happened).


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## raxadian (Jul 8, 2020)

Carmen San Diego, before the Internet it required either save scumming or knowledge of Geography.

The Math Blaster games required basic knowledge of math.


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## 64bitmodels (Jul 8, 2020)

surprised no one's mentioned brain age yet.
also just going to put rhythm heaven here, you need a really good sense of keeping the beat and rhythm of a song in order to even attempt getting a perfect


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## Deleted User (Jul 8, 2020)

my answers might surprise some

Assassin's Creed 2 yup.  One particular part.  The glyph puzzles.  Let me tell you unexpectedly changed my life forever.

Armored Core Series specifically 4.  So in this game while you might think standard mech game but to master it you have to not only get good at mech design but piloting as well.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 8, 2020)

DDR/Stepmania if you use your feet. You'll build up crazy amounts of stamina, which you'll need to tackle the harder songs. It's actual physical skills that you need to play well.


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## Budsixz (Jul 8, 2020)

The game on which terminal montage made a a video what's the name of that? Typing of the dead?


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## raxadian (Jul 8, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> surprised no one's mentioned brain age yet.
> also just going to put rhythm heaven here, you need a really good sense of keeping the beat and rhythm of a song in order to even attempt getting a perfect



Almost all rhythm games require good  memory and timing, something old games forced you to do a lot.  So while using music for it is new, the rest is not.


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## Deleted member 397813 (Jul 8, 2020)

all of those shitty afk mobile games


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## 64bitmodels (Jul 8, 2020)

CPG said:


> all of those shitty afk mobile games


lmao


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 8, 2020)

Wii Sports.


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## Rail Fighter (Jul 8, 2020)

Club House Games.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 8, 2020)

Rail Fighter said:


> Club House Games.


DS or Switch?


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## Rail Fighter (Jul 8, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> DS or Switch?



The one with soda shake.


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## KingBlank (Jul 8, 2020)

Tiger woods for the wii with the balance board + wii motion plus. My golfer friend owned me.
Shenzhen IO, basically programming, also lots of reading technical documents.


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## UltraSUPRA (Jul 8, 2020)

Rail Fighter said:


> The one with soda shake.


So the DS one.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 8, 2020)

Budsixz said:


> The game on which terminal montage made a a video what's the name of that? Typing of the dead?



Yep.


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## CraddaPoosta (Jul 8, 2020)

The 15 Puzzle on Final Fantasy remakes. You actually have to learn algorithms and mathematical patterns to be able to reliably solve this puzzle in under 30 seconds.

Danganronpa. All of them except Ultra Despair Girls. 

Ghost Trick for NDS.


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## regnad (Jul 8, 2020)

Being a trained musician makes this level MUCH easier:


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## Rail Fighter (Jul 8, 2020)

KingBlank said:


> Tiger woods for the wii with the balance board + wii motion plus. My golfer friend owned me.
> Shenzhen IO, basically programming, also lots of reading technical documents.


I wanted to play it because of the novelty of it, but it felt too boring.


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## CraddaPoosta (Jul 8, 2020)

Does My Japanese Coach count? 

That game literally taught me how to read and write Japanese.


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## DS1 (Jul 8, 2020)

I see a lot of “edutainment” games listed here and can’t say I believe it fits the topic. There are some borderline ‘games’ specifically designed to test specific skills like programming, but in general, these are not typical retail titles that *surprise!* you need a skill you may not have to progress!

This really depends on what we consider to be a skill. Some people have suggested rhythm games - which require good hand-eye (or eye-foot in the case of DDR) coordination, but I would argue that those ARE already game-related skills.

Does application to a real trade or occupation constitute a skill? Like, “oh, let me get my Doctor buddy to play this game because it requires actual medical knowledge and diagnostic skills”? What percentage of jobs today even fall into this category? 

My job is 5% advanced problem solving, 15% basic problem solving, 30% following (and/or creating) tedious workflows, and 40% interacting with internal or external clients (and of course, 100% time management). All of these are “skills” in the sense that someone could be good or bad at them, but there is no defined way to measure them or even prove them beyond arbitrarily associating metrics or anecdotes. Am I better at any given game because I possess these skills? I really don’t think so...

Conversely, I would not hire someone because they completed all of Tropico on the hardest difficulty, or won several Chess tournaments (games that, if in an abstract way, require many of the skills beneficial to the job). Having these skills that are hard to define is one thing, having the patience and presence of mind to be able to apply them in a variety of situations is another. (OK, maybe I would hire the chess champion)

Interestingly, two of the more accomplished people in my company have in the past, as a hobby, created their own maps for 1st person shooters...  not something I would attribute as a valuable or even applicable skill, but here we are.


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## Wolvenreign (Jul 8, 2020)

DS1 said:


> I see a lot of “edutainment” games listed here and can’t say I believe it fits the topic. There are some borderline ‘games’ specifically designed to test specific skills like programming, but in general, these are not typical retail titles that *surprise!* you need a skill you may not have to progress!
> 
> This really depends on what we consider to be a skill. Some people have suggested rhythm games - which require good hand-eye (or eye-foot in the case of DDR) coordination, but I would argue that those ARE already game-related skills.
> 
> ...



Eye-foot coordination is already a game-related skill?


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## gohan123 (Jul 8, 2020)

the witness, la mulana and english language requirements in disco elysium.


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## stüssy (Jul 8, 2020)

Picross addict here


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## The Catboy (Jul 8, 2020)

I am actually really good at playing The World Ends with You on my DS because I am ambidextrous


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## TheCasualties (Jul 8, 2020)

I've got one more game to mention here, *Duskers*. It relies on planing, strategy, resource management, being able to keep calm in disasters, AND programing.

This one may be good for those who liked Shenzhen I/O.

You control a set of drones, via command line, to board derelict space ships and collect supplies for your journey through space. You can even make macros or small scripts to execute, but I never figured it out. I actually never got very far in this game as I'm still not too good at programing.

I may need to take another try, now that I've been learning some basic programing (skills? lol). This video kind of shows how it requires some 'non games skills'.








DS1 said:


> I see a lot of “edutainment” games listed here and can’t say I believe it fits the topic. There are some borderline ‘games’ specifically designed to test specific skills like programming, but in general, these are not typical retail titles that *surprise!* you need a skill you may not have to progress!
> 
> This really depends on what we consider to be a skill. Some people have suggested rhythm games - which require good hand-eye (or eye-foot in the case of DDR) coordination, but I would argue that those ARE already game-related skills.
> 
> ...


I agree, and some people aren't even taking the time to *discuss* why they think the game they mention fits into this *discussion*.

Really enjoyed this post. Reminded me of talking with my philosophy buddies. To me, 'skills' are basically something you can get better at with practice. Like how you can improve your 'game skills' by playing games.

So "non game skills" basically means not the standard 'twitch' reactionary (or hand-eye) stuff, learning the META, or being able to 'read' or predict what the enemy will do (like in fighting or SoulsBourne games). So FPS, platformers, RPGs, etc. are out, obviously.

Rhythm games are kind of in between to me, because while they do require 'game skills', they also require you to learn how to play in time with the music. This is still something anyone can learn, so I'm leaning more towards  'game skills'. You can, however, take these skills out into the real world and play music. Hence Rocksmith being mentioned in OP.

Strategy games too, fall in the middle for me, more on the 'game skills' side though. It's learning to game the system and put odds in your favor. It's specific to each game, and while they can help you learn to think faster or more strategic, it's not a 'non-game skill'.

Then there are those logic puzzle and programing games. I'd argue these are the least 'game skills', as you can't really bring your 'skills' from other games into these kinds of games. They rely totally on critical thinking, puzzle solving, etc. Especially evident in Myst and 7th Guest.  Those 'skills' you use in your job aren't 'game skills', but they may help you in discovering the solution to a logic problem found in some games.

Didn't expect this to get so long, I've read through it a few times.. I hope it makes sense!



Lilith Valentine said:


> I am actually really good at playing The World Ends with You on my DS because I am ambidextrous



I've actually gotten better at this game because  a large part of my job requires using both hands in different ways at the same time. (Glass-works, where I'm having to constantly adjust both hands to what the glass is doing in the flame.) I took a break from TWEWY, and after coming back to it I find I can actually control both characters semi-reliably! I'm really good at playing Co-Op by myself in the Switch version too.


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## slaphappygamer (Jul 8, 2020)

Final fantasy vii taught me to manage money and prioritize my spending. Also taught me not to fall in love too hard, cuz, you know. 


Also, I remember a 12 year old kid took his parents car for a joyride. When the cops pulled him over, they asked him where he learned to drive. The kid said grand theft auto. Not sure where this was, but it was shortly after vice city came out.


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## Wolfy (Jul 8, 2020)

I know that there used to be this older Star Wars: Jabba Galaxy Games for the PC that my elementary computer lab would let us play. Quick search and all the memories started flooding back, bunch of the games actually tested my small mind back then, and I always couldn't wait to win enough to fly the ship.






  Anyone else remember this heckin game?


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## Taleweaver (Jul 8, 2020)

Ugh... Four pages, yet I'm the first to challenge the validity of this thread's premise aside @DS1 's post? I'd be disappointed if I expected different from y'all, GBATemp. Still : 
Most notable to you, @FAST6191 : you'd be among the first to critic it if someone else made such a thread. I expected better, man.

So what am I talking about : easy... There is no such thing as a 'non game skill' if it's used in a game. While there are many definitions of what a game really is, (one of) the most simple one(s) hits out straight on :

_A game is learning in a safe environment
_
Sure, most of us abbreviate things more, especially in the video game realm. We start by defining genres that cater to a specific skillset (hand-eye co-ordination, motoric skills, timing, priority taking, strategic and tactic thinking and so on), and then tend to be picky as to what games we play because of the feedback loop. Basically: we like to play games that'll hone and improve the skills we already have. In itself, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's still a limited set of what video gaming is, let alone what constitutes to a game.

You can, of course, start an entire discussion on what constitutes to being "fun", and whether or not it is a requirement of a game. My argument (see also the definition above) is that it's NOT a requirement. So all the edutainment games that try to teach you something about this world are, in fact, games. And games that let you solve classic puzzles (the towers of Hanoi, to name one) or have some other form of learning, intentional or not, require simply "skills" to be practiced...in a game. The notion of "gamer skills" versus "non gamer skills" is as pointless as one about "gamer hands" versus "non gamer hands". (please don't make your next topic about that  )

As such, I find the answers interesting, though probably not because of the reasons intended. People giving programming examples are clearly unfamiliar with hacking games or the open-ended puzzle games Zachtronic games is best known for(1). And it's frankly more embarrassing to see people giving simple puzzle games as examples. I mean...not to offend the posters, but just how sucked up in your own little gaming bubble are you if you consider basic puzzle games to be using "non gamer skills" ?  Jeez...I've written on how I dislike the term "gamer", though I can't deny I'm fitting the description (meaning: I play games). This is like visiting a traveller's convention and you find yourself surrounded by people calling themselves globetrotters when they visited their neighboring town. 

Ahem...that said: some examples of "skills that are rarely (or only accidentally) used in games" are as follows:
-Leisure suit Larry in the land of the lounge lizards. This game (at least the original) was 18+, and in order to make sure the player was that old, the game started with a multiple choice pop quiz about real world events. Of course, this only INCREASED my intention to make it through (I was about ten at that time...and could hardly read or write, let alone in English)
-cook, serve, delicious series, as well as typing of the dead and Epistory are all variants of typing games. Basically: it tangentially learns you how to type faultless.
-tabletop simulator. I need the above definition to label it as a game, because while it does allow you to play board games, it is mostly a tool to create board games. Meaning: well over 3/4th of my time is spent on scanning images, laying out tables and learning to script things.
-the board game Detective. Most (if not all other?) board games confine you to use the components you've got. Detective lives up to its name in that you can't solve the adventure that way. You'll need to research story elements, find out how to use aspects and so on, basically doing exactly what it says on the box: being a detective.



(1): while he was probably first to explore the genre, others are starting to come in. Silicon zeroes, while true:learn() and Neon noodles fall well within this genre, and games like uplink, sattelite reign and a few others dive into the idea of learning how to hack without breaking any actual laws


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## HaloEffect17 (Jul 8, 2020)

Picross


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## Trash_Bandatcoot (Jul 8, 2020)

Probably Minecraft, or at least, when you're put into creative mode. After that, you can do whatever the hell you want to, since you don't have to craft anything.


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## kaputnik (Jul 8, 2020)

The MotoGP series. Having some roadracing experience really helps, even if you only know the basics, like when to brake or open up the throttle, how to take bends, or what tires to choose depending on the weather conditions.


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## zxr750j (Jul 8, 2020)

"Denki Block!s" surprised me back then (played the GBA version), it looks so easy and playful but some levels were surprisingly hard. Lately I really liked "Mini Metro" on the Switch (check it out!). And (also mentioned before by another user) "Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes" requires rarely uses skills rarely used nowadays (something called "communication").


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## Agahniim (Jul 8, 2020)

Mario Party teaches you how to be a total dickhead to your friends and family


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## DarthDub (Jul 8, 2020)

I wonder if Mr. Bones on Sega Saturn counts? That game has multiple genre shifts that it can kinda throw you off guard.


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## pedro702 (Jul 8, 2020)

typing of the dead xD


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## Arras (Jul 8, 2020)

There's some simulator games that probably count. Try downloading this and getting the helicopter off the ground without any prior knowledge of how to control one. The same goes for things like assembling the car in My Summer Car.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Jul 8, 2020)

You might remember the optional picture puzzle in Zelda: The Wind Waker (in Link´s house). The same type of puzzle is obligatory in Fatal Frame 4 (Wii). But there strategies to make those easier. I found the info online.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 8, 2020)

Taleweaver said:


> Ugh... Four pages, yet I'm the first to challenge the validity of this thread's premise aside @DS1 's post? I'd be disappointed if I expected different from y'all, GBATemp. Still :
> Most notable to you, @FAST6191 : you'd be among the first to critic it if someone else made such a thread. I expected better, man.
> 
> So what am I talking about : easy... There is no such thing as a 'non game skill' if it's used in a game. While there are many definitions of what a game really is, (one of) the most simple one(s) hits out straight on :
> ...





TheCasualties said:


> I've got one more game to mention here, *Duskers*. It relies on planing, strategy, resource management, being able to keep calm in disasters, AND programing.
> 
> This one may be good for those who liked Shenzhen I/O.
> 
> ...




I will stand by the premise of the thread. I could possibly have set the scene better (a problem I have had with this "series" since the start) and there have been some dubious selections even then but I will stand by it.
Perhaps a better phrasing will be assuming you have baseline language skills*, rudimentary maths and can reasonably hit a button within a second to react to something, something possibly telegraphed as well, and/or keep a few variables (or grind past it) in your head that you can play things you can do most games. Anything "new" is likely something that can be taught in 20 minutes at worst, or if a bit longer then 20 minutes early on and at one or two more 20 minute intervals including "practice" scattered a bit later into the game. In most instances said 20 minutes is mostly practice and possibly more getting used to the given implementation of what is at its core a fairly stock system. The given implementation might not click for you, or might be poorly implemented, but that is a different matter.
I don't necessarily disagree with a statement that gaming skills are skills in their own right either (this guy has a fascinating series getting his wife to play games despite her not really playing them or being familiar with the, for want of a better term, language of games and various ted talks also contemplate things at length -- if 10000 hours makes you an expert there is a decent chance this thread is a meeting of them, just nobody is quite sure what that expertise particularly affords and anybody that monetises that is going to make a packet), however the overwhelming majority of games fall within what are fairly narrow confines, something TheCasualties starts to codify and I think made a slightly more generalised version for above.
To that end I will maybe expand upon the music example. I can't read sheet music, made a serious effort once to learn but not a chance (I also have no rhythm at all in general, even if fast, precise and repetitive is something I am very good at, until I get bored of repetition anyway) though both in general curiosity and because I like observing "unknown tribes" I will watch videos on fairly in depth music theory. I was serious that if a game presented me with a basic play this 16 note section on this virtual piano to open the door I am there for hours with a reference guide to transcribe it where likely some 10 year old that had some piano lessons would be straight through. Make it even marginally complex (never mind go all black page) and... hopefully there is a workaround or I am making a cheat or finding a friend, though I do wonder if my lack of musical talent would mean I have no qualms at all about doing something in something other than 4:4 (for whatever reason I have a lot of it in my collection, and would not have noted anything strange or different about it). You are certainly not going to reliably teach sheet music in 20 minutes. I might even try an analogy with that 4:4 stuff; while it has changed a bit in the west with the whole Brubeck thing I am told anything other than 4:4 or whole number multiplications of that I get the impression it is outside of many a musician's comfort zone even if they are massively skilled within it. Most game designers would not include such a thing even if it is a perfectly valid test of skills. Most don't have serious language puzzles (or made up languages saving that they were made up for something else and can be included by virtue of that).

Sometimes the skills can't be easily replicated within current computers. In real life I am a forensic metallurgist, which is to say I know why metal things fall over (or can after I spend many hours examining something). No crafting in a game, even the really hardcore Japanese blacksmith games, have ever come close to metal simulation, and forensics are mostly crime based and a slight twist on point and click (no consideration at all given to destructive, non destructive and partially destructive testing, maybe once or twice in a series is there a time constraint and calibration and probabilities... yeah) but at the same time that is likely more of a lack of ability to simulate... physics much like AI to play collectible card games means true custom deck is unlikely to happen any time too soon and both to why a pen and paper role playing game is going to be a real world (even if augmented, or reasonably allowing remote, by tech nowadays if you wanted) thing for the time being. I did however see a car design game (see beamng drive video of the designer and guide to making your own models) that pretty accurately simulated constraints and how bumping tolerances and performance bumped price and reliability, as well as physics, and the kerbal stuff is a nice start on that front, so there is some hope there.
I am also going to have to go looking for a machining based game as well -- modern CAD, CNC and CAM are more than suitable as the basis for a game, and when I play with them to try to keep myself halfway sharp on them (being an engineer that does not like CAD, or at least not the idea of spending all work day playing with it for 50 years, is not quite as bad as being a doctor that does not like blood but seemingly not so very far off and probably about as a limiting) I do literally make my own games/play/challenges rather than go through tutorials. 
The hacking stuff was an interesting one as well. I think I can see why you question either its inclusion in the opening or in replies (though going a bit meta most of this whole series has "expand your range" as a not so subtly hidden underlying concept, and if I can get some good suggestions for things, and have others share their own examples to save me typing up mine, then so much the better -- game design is mind control and all that) and the whole hackme and ARG scene(s) stands in stark defiance of it not being a popular notion but it is still something that does not fit the 20 minutes notion.

Someone mentioned lockpicking earlier. One of the examples that has stuck with me for years is I was once playing a nominally educational game back in on some old 386 era machines the school had. Wander around a creepy castle/mansion type affair but largely text and ASCII graphics. It had you try to make a master key (mortice lock, though such things are common to this day around here) from blanks on a fireplace. Always remember that one. Struggled a bit with it as well as we had not yet done the whole graphs/coordinates approach that would probably have seen me do it in seconds today.

I saw pokemon mentioned as well with the type mechanics not necessarily being too abstract to make things tedious. I might have to expand upon that one. For those of a certain age (and those a bit older will probably have Seiken Densetsu: Final Fantasy Gaiden/Final Fantasy Adventure/Mystic Quest) the whole my first RPG/RPG light thing does mean something. However that would probably be a different thread.

*though I was curious to see how some in a given area, or let's just say ping region, find themselves left out by virtue of not necessarily speaking the dominant language. English is the world's (almost certainly most of Europe's) second language and if you want to play games you stand an even greater chance of knowing it so yeah.


I am not sure I have a concluding thought at this point but hopefully I have at least illustrated something of where I am coming from with this one.


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## Zense (Jul 8, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> [...]but at the same time that is likely more of a lack of ability to simulate... physics [...]


Hopefully when we're done with ray tracing we can continue to see progress being made in simulating physics (other than lighting/surface details). Shortly after HL2 there was a hope that we would see it being focused on, but now we're stuck with situations where for example the latest Gears of War game has worse physics than its predecessor... which came out years before, maybe even a console generation before, if my memory serves me right.


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## medoli900 (Jul 8, 2020)

Hacknet is a good example, since you have to navigate in the game using shell commands. Sure there's some UI that can help moving from IP to IP, but it's far from being efficient. You'd also need some HTML background for some of the achievement, and if you want to do some shit and giggle with the game internal code, from within the game itself.

I'd like to see a game where you have to apply actual chemistry knowledge, especially organic chemistry.


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## toguro_max (Jul 8, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Carmen San Diego, before the Internet it required either save scumming or knowledge of Geography.
> (...)


Although it falls into the category of "edutainment", it's always good to mention Carmen Sandiego.
Also, any Lucas Arts / Scumm / Point and Click game, specially from the '80s / '90s.

I'd like to point one "game" that I believe falls totally into this category, but didn't see anyone mentioning it:

Not Porn: Really, when I read the thread title, it immediately came in into mind. It's a "game" you play on your browser where you need to employ a plethora of techniques in order to advance, like (but not limited to): analyzing the page's source code, audio manipulation and general knowledge.


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## FAST6191 (Jul 8, 2020)

Zense said:


> Hopefully when we're done with ray tracing we can continue to see progress being made in simulating physics (other than lighting/surface details). Shortly after HL2 there was a hope that we would see it being focused on, but now we're stuck with situations where for example the latest Gears of War game has worse physics than its predecessor... which came out years before, maybe even a console generation before, if my memory serves me right.


I mostly consider ray tracing a dead end or pointless frivolity and that alone probably says where physics sits in the hierarchy of cool tech to chase.
That said a lot of it is there (can run simulations, and if that beamng is going to simulate user made stuff I have some hope for something.



medoli900 said:


> Hacknet is a good example, since you have to navigate in the game using shell commands. Sure there's some UI that can help moving from IP to IP, but it's far from being efficient. You'd also need some HTML background for some of the achievement, and if you want to do some shit and giggle with the game internal code, from within the game itself.
> 
> I'd like to see a game where you have to apply actual chemistry knowledge, especially organic chemistry.



Seems like I get to point to http://fold.it/ in a lot of these even if it is not strictly chemistry.

That said one day
https://research.msu.edu/designing-drugs-at-the-atomic-scale-with-computer-simulation/
Just going to need either consumer quantum, be it remote or local, or several more years of moore's law (or maybe 3d stuff).


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## TheCasualties (Jul 8, 2020)

medoli900 said:


> Hacknet is a good example, since you have to navigate in the game using shell commands. Sure there's some UI that can help moving from IP to IP, but it's far from being efficient. You'd also need some HTML background for some of the achievement, and if you want to do some shit and giggle with the game internal code, from within the game itself.
> 
> I'd like to see a game where you have to apply actual chemistry knowledge, especially organic chemistry.



I'm not sure if actual chemistry knowledge helps, but have you checked out MOLEK-SYNTEZ? It's another Zachtronics game some I'm sure some people know of this already.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1168880/MOLEKSYNTEZ/


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## medoli900 (Jul 8, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Seems like I get to point to http://fold.it/ in a lot of these even if it is not strictly chemistry.
> 
> That said one day
> https://research.msu.edu/designing-drugs-at-the-atomic-scale-with-computer-simulation/
> Just going to need either consumer quantum, be it remote or local, or several more years of moore's law (or maybe 3d stuff).


Fold.it is more biology than chemistry though, since it's protein folding. As for that computer simulation, it's actually what I'm working towards to the last seven years.


TheCasualties said:


> I'm not sure if actual chemistry knowledge helps, but have you checked out MOLEK-SYNTEZ? It's another Zachtronics game some I'm sure some people know of this already.
> https://store.steampowered.com/app/1168880/MOLEKSYNTEZ/


Oh hey, a new Zachtronics game. I'll definitely get it, since I already have all the other Zachtronics game and I'm a big fan of his. Knowing him though, and from a quick glance at the trailer, it probably will be more computer engineering, only with a chemistry skin, like SpaceChem or Opus Magnum.


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## leon315 (Jul 8, 2020)

D34DL1N3R said:


> The Professor Layton series.


yep, but in some cases a BIG BRAIN was highly requested.


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## duwen (Jul 8, 2020)

Technically, anything (specifically RPG's) that wasn't translated/localized would require the understanding of a foreign language to make even basic progress... does that count?


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## Kadji (Jul 8, 2020)

Japanese Music games (ddr/sdvx/iidx comes to mind).
Not only do you habe to struggle with japanese menus (and maybe learn a few Kanjis/phrases) but it also trains you physical. Be it full body movement (ddr) or hand focused games (iidx/sdvx). Best Hand-Eye coordination training imo.


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## DS1 (Jul 8, 2020)

I forgot, I actually have a real example - Carnage Hearts requires a basic understanding of coding (you enter preset commands and set up loops to program a robot to fight in an arena using the Armored Core engine). 

My friends that have a lot of programming experience and ingenuity are very skilled at the game, but it is not prohibitive to anyone willing to learn the skills necessary. Most importantly, it’s an actual game!


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## Solidsnake451 (Jul 8, 2020)

Mario Kart for Ds or Switch.
Need For Speed Most Wanted

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

C.O.P for ds

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Michael Jackson The Experience for PSP

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Sonic The Hedgehog for Genesis and New Super Mario Bros ds


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## FAST6191 (Jul 8, 2020)

Solidsnake451 said:


> Mario Kart for Ds or Switch.
> Need For Speed Most Wanted
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> ...



I have played most of those and beat them with standard reactions and light memorisation that most games have as their core tests of skill. You are going to have to qualify that one.


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## Taleweaver (Jul 9, 2020)

TheCasualties said:


> I'm not sure if actual chemistry knowledge helps, but have you checked out MOLEK-SYNTEZ? It's another Zachtronics game some I'm sure some people know of this already.
> https://store.steampowered.com/app/1168880/MOLEKSYNTEZ/


Ah, rats...I was going to recommend the exact same game to @medoli900 I'm in the middle of playing it, and it immediately came to mind.  


medoli900 said:


> Oh hey, a new Zachtronics game. I'll definitely get it, since I already have all the other Zachtronics game and I'm a big fan of his. Knowing him though, and from a quick glance at the trailer, it probably will be more computer engineering, only with a chemistry skin, like SpaceChem or Opus Magnum.


Erm...I'll go with "you're partially correct" on that one. Yes, it's in the same vein as spacechem, and even a bit more like opus magnum, but the chemical components you mofidy can form binds on their own if you aren't careful. As an example: you remove a H part of a C molecule to bind it to another part, but because this C is next to another element you're altering, it just binds with THAT instead...so in later levels you've got to take more than simple (ahem) program instructions into account to end up with your goal instead of with some frankensteinian molecule that connects everything and the kitchen sink but in a way different fashion. 

(for reference: here's the steam review I wrote on it:


Spoiler



The unintentional bad stuff: it's IMHO not as good as Opus Magnum. The graphics are inferior (though not as much as screenshots would make you believe), the story even more 'meh', I can't remember the name of this bloody game and the way to approach puzzles is less intuitive.
To elaborate on the last point: in opus magnum, nothing changes that you don't put into motion. But this game is different not only because your modification tools are on the sidebar rather than on the field, but also (and more so) because you're working with chemical molecules. To swap a C-molecule with an N, for example, you need to throw extra H's at the C until it's no longer bound to whatever it was bound to before you can remove it, and you'll need to do something similar to the N molecule. However: whatever that original C was connected to has become instable in the process, so unless you designed your work so that this whatever binds with that prepped N in the correct configuration, it will happily bind with some OTHER motherf***ing molecule in its vicinity, totally wrecking your carefully thought out machine. Grrrrr!!!!(1)
Ahem...what I'm saying: in opus magnum, I felt like mistakes were mine ("why did I place this girder here?" when my piece collided with my operator stuff). Here, it felt as if I'm punished for not completely grokking my chemical classes twenty years ago.
HOWEVER...I must really stress that O.M. is an absolute must play for any puzzle/program fanatic. And caveats aside, molek-syntez (I had to look up the name) might be in the same ball park but is still mostly different. So: an easy thumbs up nonetheless. :-)
(1) important note: if you're lost on this paragraph, you better learn about organic chemistry BEFORE picking up this game. I get the massive thumbs up for it, but you won't be one of 'em unless you really grasp this concept...hopefully better than me


)


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## subcon959 (Jul 9, 2020)

Leisure Suit Larry games required enough skill to play one handed


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## PerfectB (Jul 10, 2020)

It's funny that the Leisure Suit Larry "age check" quiz is mentioned. You could certainly be old enough to play that game now and probably need to reference some other source for the answers if your weren't an adult at the time it was released. 

I think the (in)famous Silent Hill 3 Shakespeare puzzle might qualify, in terms of a game asking you to have outside knowledge. On the hardest difficulty, it requires knowing the some of the content of the works.  Being able to read sheet music seems like something a lot of survival horror/puzzle based games expect the player to know as well. 

Nothing particularly difficult, if you've been exposed to it before. Not terribly intuitive if you haven't


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## ShroomKing (Jul 10, 2020)

I'm suprised nobody's mentioned HackTheBox or the OverTheWire Wargames

Pretty sure any type of CTF or "crackme" could also be considered a "game" and they require serious cryptography knowledge and reversing/bughunting skills(especially the higher difficulty ones)


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## FAST6191 (Jul 10, 2020)

PerfectB said:


> Being able to read sheet music seems like something a lot of survival horror/puzzle based games expect the player to know as well.



Oh? It is not my main thing in life but I would like to consider myself reasonably versed in such things and have no examples there, much less from anything vaguely popular.

Anything I might see on the music front is usually 3 or 4 notes and doable with basic pattern recognition (either copy what is played, or mirror an ascending/descending sequence). Maybe they do a few of them in a row. If they wanted to get super advanced they might have you play a few and then skip a note out in the ghosted out sequence they want you to play.
Nothing even close to play by ear, chords, timing, anything resembling creativity (it is within reason to have some kind of improv jazz, call and response musical brinksmanship type challenge in a game, or even have some real fun with music generation algorithms determine a list of acceptable response ranges), play/finish this popular motif/well known song, read this sheet and go from there, especially not on a blind piano/guitar/virtual whatever with no notes as to what key is what (or maybe just noting a given key).


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## Ryccardo (Jul 10, 2020)

Any game where the player consults a walkhrough - since reading skills seem to not be a given nowadays!

(Interestingly, the early Pokemon games had a warning on the box saying that you needed to be able to read to play them)


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## FAST6191 (Jul 10, 2020)

Ryccardo said:


> (Interestingly, the early Pokemon games had a warning on the box saying that you needed to be able to read to play them)


Pokemon is an interesting case study here. Many over the years have noted the anime released along with the first (and super popular all over anywhere I went during that time) was also something of a game tutorial.

It would not be the first time a game had say the (back)story kicked to the manual (cannon fodder 2 http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/cf2/cf2.htm is my favourite example) or external (but bundled) video or something but pokemon being deliberately multimedia/external for a least a sizeable chunk of their audience is something I am not sure I have examples for.


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## Zense (Jul 10, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Pokemon is an interesting case study here. Many over the years have noted the anime released along with the first (and super popular all over anywhere I went during that time) was also something of a game tutorial.
> 
> It would not be the first time a game had say the (back)story kicked to the manual (cannon fodder 2 http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/cf2/cf2.htm is my favourite example) or external (but bundled) video or something but pokemon being deliberately multimedia/external for a least a sizeable chunk of their audience is something I am not sure I have examples for.


A sort of similar situation with regards to a game series connected to a tv series is .hack, but the audience was much smaller and more niche.

I also don't remember that many horror games with puzzles benefiting from any kind of music knowledge to solve, and I usually remember those type of puzzles and I've also played a good amount of horror games. It would be interesting to get examples from @PerfectB .


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## medoli900 (Jul 10, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> Pokemon is an interesting case study here. Many over the years have noted the anime released along with the first (and super popular all over anywhere I went during that time) was also something of a game tutorial.
> 
> It would not be the first time a game had say the (back)story kicked to the manual (cannon fodder 2 http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/cf2/cf2.htm is my favourite example) or external (but bundled) video or something but pokemon being deliberately multimedia/external for a least a sizeable chunk of their audience is something I am not sure I have examples for.


Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Link is another one, recent example. There's some story here and there, and _very_ basic tutorial, but if you haven't watched the anime or previously played Yu-Gi-Oh, good luck.


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## john.jingle (Jul 10, 2020)

Ring Fit Adventure for Switch.
Granted you dont need "skills" per se but you do need to be relatively in shape to play this game for a decent stretch of time.


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