# Trump the tax fraudster



## notimp (Sep 28, 2020)

and




> President Donald Trump paid just $750 (€644) in federal income taxes in 2016, the year he ran for president, and in 2017, his first year in the White House, according to a report Sunday in _The New York Times_.
> 
> He also paid no federal income taxes in 10 of the past 15 years because he reported losing more money than he made, the report said.
> 
> Trump has fiercely guarded his tax filings and is the only US president in modern times not to make them public, despite saying he would.


src: https://www.dw.com/en/us-president-donald-trump-avoided-tax-for-years-report-finds/a-55073812

Original report:
https://web.archive.org/web/2020092...ractive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html


> _Helping to reduce Mr. Trump’s tax bills are unidentified consultants’ fees, some of which can be matched to payments received by Ivanka Trump._



edit:


> His revenue from “The Apprentice” and from licensing deals is drying up, and several years ago he sold nearly all the stocks that now might have helped him plug holes in his struggling properties.
> 
> The tax audit looms.
> 
> And within the next four years, more than $300 million in loans — obligations for which he is personally responsible — will come due.


Better become president.


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## Seliph (Sep 28, 2020)

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html Yeah this same issue came up 4 years ago too :/

Trump supporters simply do not care


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## Dust2dust (Sep 28, 2020)

But he said it was fake news, so nothing to worry about.  I trust him, he's the president of the USA, after all.


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## deficitdisorder (Sep 28, 2020)

Where to fucking start with shit?

People will routinely be denied security clearance with just a few hundred dollars in debt and here we have President Trump personally underwater by hundreds of millions.

Trump paying no taxes in the same year tweet at Obama for only paying 20% tax after charitable donations.

Absurd writeoffs like $70,000 for hair and makeup.

Underwater businesses still paying his family members 6 figure 'consulting' fees for no reason

Then the IRS lawsuit over $72million tax refund is going on while trump and the GOP are actively defunding the IRS


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## notimp (Sep 28, 2020)

This is more than a rumor at this stage as well:
https://forensicnews.net/2020/01/03...sian-state-owned-bank-whistleblower-told-fbi/
(References a business insider article that is linked in the article.)

Attention: We can not make a connection between the 300-400 mio in loans that will come due in the next 4 years and Deutsch Bank loans, on the 300-400 mio we dont know who the lender is.


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## Taleweaver (Sep 28, 2020)

Honestly: who is still surprised at this point? From withdrawing his promise to release his tax returns to threatening to sue those that release it for him, his multiple bankrupcies, his loans despite his shady reputation by Deutsche bank, the funding of Trump tower in NYC and Mar a Lago...I'm probably missing all sorts of stuff foreboding exactly this. Either you've been living under a rock, or you're a Trump fanboy that doesn't even bother denying.


Okay, okay: I admit it: I thought he'd at least tone down his tax evasion while being president. After backtracking on his promise, a child could have seen coming that his tax returns being leaked wasn't a matter of "if" but "when". Did he really expect this to remain unnoticed?

Donald is also weakening his own defence by declaring the news both "fake" and "illegally obtained".  Yyyyyeaaahhh...it can't really be both, stupid. If they're fake, they're not your tax records and therefore not obtained. If they're real, they aren't fake.


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## Chains (Sep 28, 2020)

He talked quite a lot about how easy the system was for people like him to manipulate back in 2015. 
It was a regular campaign message for his 1st term. Why should anyone be shocked at this now?
Blame the tax codes for allowing these (Trump,Bezos,Zuckerberg) billionaires to get away with murder, do you expect a fox not to raid the hen house?!


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## spotanjo3 (Sep 28, 2020)

No presidents are better anyway. They are all corrupt. Don't trust them ever. Surely, some helped but not a good enough. And never will. A key ? A corruption. That's simple. Excuse my English.


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## Hanafuda (Sep 28, 2020)

> President Donald Trump paid just $750 (€644) in federal income taxes in 2016, the year he ran for president, and in 2017, his first year in the White House, according to a report Sunday in _The New York Times_.




See, this is just false, but most people have no idea how tax law works and for liberals it's what they want to hear (he only paid $750!!!!), so they run with it. The truth is right there in the NYT article. Trump is actually _paid ahead_ millions in taxes. Anyone who thinks he only paid $750 in taxes either has a reading comprehension problem, or is happy spreading lies.


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## Deleted User (Sep 28, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> See, this is just false, but most people have no idea how tax law works and for liberals it's what they want to hear (he only paid $750!!!!), so they run with it. The truth is right there in the NYT article. Trump is actually _paid ahead_ millions in taxes. Anyone who thinks he only paid $750 in taxes either has a reading comprehension problem, or is happy spreading lies.
> 
> View attachment 226478
> View attachment 226479


issue, he went to banks and got a loan for 300 million. I don't know about you, but bank fraud isn't good either. since to get a loan that big you have to be a millionaire at least. Part of the reason his taxes are so low was because he claimed he was under.


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## Hanafuda (Sep 28, 2020)

monkeyman4412 said:


> issue, he went to banks and got a loan for 300 million. I don't know about you, but bank fraud isn't good either. since to get a loan that big you have to be a millionaire at least. *Part of the reason his taxes are so low was because he claimed he was under.*



You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. His taxes were not low. He paid millions up front in 2016 and 2017 when he applied for filing extensions, and then applied over 9 million in tax credits when he did actually file. The tax credits, which were for historic renovation / urban renewal construction projects including the Old Post Office in Wash DC, were enough to cover his full tax liability. So the $5.2 million he paid up front was rolled forward, i.e. it is still all or mostly 'on account' with the IRS, to be applied to future taxes he owes.


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## notimp (Sep 29, 2020)

Chains said:


> He talked quite a lot about how easy the system was for people like him to manipulate back in 2015.
> It was a regular campaign message for his 1st term. Why should anyone be shocked at this now?
> Blame the tax codes for allowing these (Trump,Bezos,Zuckerberg) billionaires to get away with murder, do you expect a fox not to raid the hen house?!


Ehm I raise you this Trump 2020 deregulation ad:


It is so heartwarming seeing middle class americans who have yet to formulate a congruent sentence, that also makes sense without a mood sonata playing in the background, thanking Trump for a much needed tax break... considering he payed 750USD in two years and nothing in 10 years before that on income tax.

If you havent laughed yet - watch this:

Regulation, who needs it.. 



And on top of that I throw in a "How to win an Argument with Liberal Relatives playlist" from the official Trump youtube channel for free!
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKOAoICmbyV1pG_of4mTa9j-IWR_Cjw4V


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## catlover007 (Sep 29, 2020)

notimp said:


> And on top of that I throw in a "How to win an Argument with Liberal Relatives playlist" from the official Trump youtube channel for free!
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKOAoICmbyV1pG_of4mTa9j-IWR_Cjw4V


thank you so much for this link . Compared to this PragerU look like an actual university.


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## Chains (Sep 29, 2020)

notimp said:


> Ehm I raise you this Trump 2020 deregulation ad:
> 
> 
> It is so heartwarming seeing middle class americans who have yet to formulate a congruent sentence, that also makes sense without a mood sonata playing in the background, thanking Trump for a much needed tax break... considering he payed 750USD in two years and nothing in 10 years before that on income tax.
> ...



Trump also wrote off 70 grand for hair care. Do you think he got his money's worth?


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## gregory-samba (Sep 29, 2020)

Tax credits and deductions are normal and legal. We all already knew that the Left simply wanted his taxes to attack him with and it turns out he's recently been audited and nothing out of the ordinary was found. He's also gave away his entire $400,000 Presidential Salary every year since 2016 and if you have an ounce of an idea how donations are handled during tax time you'd realize that paying $0.00 in taxes when you've given away $400,000 is absolutely legal and normal. Even the New York Times admits that the taxes aren't a big deal after all. All of that Liberal whining for 4 years was over nothing. 

Of course the Left is going to attack him regardless of guilt. I also understand Trump saying it's fake news because he doesn't have access to the taxes that the New York Times has to verify they are legit and also because of the amount of bullshit spin attacks coming from the Left over a nothing burger. It's pretty neat though as I never thought a group of people could keep progressively failing time after time. There were no major "Russian" influences in his taxes or anything remotely illegal. Liberals are a damned joke.


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## CallmeBerto (Sep 29, 2020)

A more updated article - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...8Yv3OxAvbVOAptNDwQtcpasgyeia7OIxXGLeIy_enSD20


I have yet to read all of it. Will do so and get back in the morning.


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## gregory-samba (Sep 29, 2020)

CallmeBerto said:


> A more updated article - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/09/27/us/donald-trump-taxes.html
> I have yet to read all of it. Will do so and get back in the morning.



I read the New York Time's article. What caught my attention was that somehow and most likely *they illegally obtained these records*, but the records basically *clear Trump of any Russian collusion* and that's if the Mueller report wasn't already enough to convince me of his innocence. The records also indicate some losses on Trump's part and then the much hyped about *false statements* that he paid only* $750* in taxes on in 2016. You should also keep in mind that *the taxes are his personal taxes* so they don't cover each business he used to run that files separate taxes. The New York Times also claimed the left will be left *"unfulfilled"* as his taxes contain no damning evidence against him.

I honestly thought his taxes might be able to be used against him in an attack, which is the sole reason the Left wanted them to begin with, but they basically* clear him of any wrong doing*. It's sad that the Left was simply seeking to destroy Trump as opposed to neutrally just finding out the truth. If there was damning evidence in his taxes and he did break the law I'd support him having to deal with the consequences, but I approached the issue with a neutral stance and it turns out* he didn't break the law*. The people claiming he did probably *have no idea how tax write offs and deductions work* as I wonder how many years the people commenting on this board that are out to get Trump have been filing taxes in the USA. I mean best pre-debate scandal they could come up with is “Trump has a brilliant personal tax strategy”. This is what desperation looks like, folks!

*Trump* has also *been giving away his entire $400,000 US Presidential Salary*, which is pretty much unprecedented as no one else in the government that I know of just simply gives away their entire salary to charity. I do recall the Left attacking Trump for donating his quarterly salary to disabled veterans this year. It just makes me sad that these *evil demonrats* want nothing, but to destroy the President and our great nation for personal greed. The entire reason they whined and cried about getting Trump's taxes for 4 years was to hurt Trump so I do understand why he just wouldn't hand them over regardless if he's guilty of not. The entire point was to fuck him over based on criminal activity in his taxes that the Left said would be there, but there is none and *the Liberal left was wrong again*.


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## notimp (Sep 29, 2020)

gregory-samba said:


> I read the New York Time's article. What caught my attention was that somehow and most likely *they illegally obtained these records*


Whistleblower.

Concept: Someone witnesses a crime, know, that internally it would be concealed by a company or state, or that there is no internally, because its a private person. They go to the press. Press has to gage if this is in the public interest, and then can publish.

Its called separation of power.

Its what keeps this democracy thing alive.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 29, 2020)

I didn't find this news shocking, and I don't know why anyone does - Trump said as much during the debates in 2016. Nobody who pays any attention at all should be surprised by this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/10/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html

He literally said, to everyone's face, on-stage and on national television, that he effectively paid zero income tax for years due to a tax break which he received on the basis of depreciation. The NYT themselves published the article above, so they're beating the same drum they did 4 years ago, except this time on the basis of illegally obtained documents that they also _refuse to release_, so their claims are _impossible to verify_ until Trump himself releases his tax returns post-audit. They're providing more detail, not new information.

The only thing I find egregious about this situation is that anyone in the country pays any income tax at all, not the particular amount in question. This is my personal opinion, but I consider the income tax to be a penalty on productivity - nobody should be charged based on their input into the economy, taxes should be levied on consumption. The United States of America operated for well over a century without an income tax - historically income was only taxable temporarily for the purposes of funding a war effort (the Revenue Act of 1861 and the Tarrif Act in 1894). The modern income tax didn't come into existence until the ratification of the 16th Amendment in 1913, at which point it was levied at 1% for incomes up to $3000 with a surtax of 6% on incomes above $500000, which in those times was an unimaginable fortune. Since then it's been out of control, particularly in times of economic depression (during The Great Depression it reached a staggering 94%). My position has always been to abolish it altogether and charge people for what they consume, not on the fruits of their labour to which they are entitled to - they worked for them. The income tax is not the only tax people pay, but out of all of them it is easily the most offensive one.

That’s neither here nor there, I simply wanted to point out that this story isn't so much news as it is a development on what was already said. Trump uses deductions and exemptions - good on him, everyone should.


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## Cylent1 (Sep 29, 2020)

WOW!
So where did he break the law?
Also no mention of his yearly $400,000 presidential salary goes to charity!
You haters have nothing better to do than hate!
By the way, Trump supports Oxygen.  So all you haters can hold your breath now until he out of office 4 years from now!


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## Iamapirate (Sep 29, 2020)

Assuming the report is accurate, what laws did he break?


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## Cylent1 (Sep 29, 2020)

Iamapirate said:


> Assuming the report is accurate, what laws did he break?


You know they cannot help themselves!


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## omgcat (Sep 29, 2020)

Iamapirate said:


> Assuming the report is accurate, what laws did he break?




If he claimed losses to reduce his income tax down to 750 or zero, he could not have filed for loans to the tune of 300 million dollars. That is either tax fraud, or bank fraud, either is a federal crime.


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## Methanoid (Sep 29, 2020)

And is ANYONE surprised by this "news" ???


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## gregory-samba (Sep 29, 2020)

omgcat said:


> If he claimed losses to reduce his income tax down to 750 or zero, he could not have filed for loans to the tune of 300 million dollars. That is either tax fraud, or bank fraud, either is a federal crime.



... and the arm chair tax attorneys come out of the wood work. "Look ma, my Internet buddies who were just constitutional experts and then infectious disease experts now know more about Taxes than the IRS does!". LOL. Loans aren't "income". He also paid way more than $750. I'll inform you since you didn't read this thread to find that out.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Methanoid said:


> And is ANYONE surprised by this "news" ???



"Unfulfilled" is the word The New York Times used. It was reflecting the state of mind of the Democrats as they  decided before even seeing the taxes that Trump was guilty, yet there's nothing in them to fuck him over with.


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## Methanoid (Sep 29, 2020)

As a neutral (ie NOT American) I have to say the Rest of the World looks on and giggles.. You got what you voted for... an Idiot as a President... He's not making the US look like Leader of the Free World.... Sooner ANYONE (any party) replaces him the better for both US and ROW.


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## gregory-samba (Sep 29, 2020)

Methanoid said:


> As a neutral (ie NOT American) I have to say the Rest of the World looks on and giggles.. You got what you voted for... an Idiot as a President... He's not making the US look like Leader of the Free World.... Sooner ANYONE (any party) replaces him the better for both US and ROW.



You're reading the wrong USA media sites.


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## UltraSUPRA (Sep 29, 2020)

If the Trump Tax story is false, then you're all a bunch of lying dog-faced pony soldiers.
If the Trump Tax story is true, we should all do the same.


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## notimp (Sep 29, 2020)

UltraSUPRA said:


> If the Trump Tax story is false, then you're all a bunch of lying dog-faced pony soldiers.
> If the Trump Tax story is true, we should all do the same.


Want to see just how tiny Trump’s $750 tax payment really is? Watch this video. pic.twitter.com/mvKlF4r3TR— Mother Jones (@MotherJones) September 29, 2020


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## Hanafuda (Sep 29, 2020)

notimp said:


> https://twitter.com/MotherJones/status/1311013766746701824



So Mother Jones is a liar (no shocker there) and unless you want to edit that for us, you are too. It was explained on the previous page, using language directly from the NYT source article, that Trump actually paid $5.2 million up front in 2016 and 2017 when requesting an extension to file, and then when he did actually file he covered his entire tax liability (except for $750) using over $9 million in federal tax credits earned for historic preservation / urban renewal construction projects. The $5.2 million didn't need to be touched, so it was rolled forward for taxes he will owe in the future. That's money he actually has "on account" at the IRS right now. His accountants worked his taxes for 2016 and 2017 to leave a $750 amount of tax he would pay. Don't ask me why, it's for some reasons accountants would know. But he_ paid_ _millions_. Not $750. You're spreading a lie. Which makes you, what?


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## notimp (Sep 29, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> using over $9 million in federal tax credits earned for historic preservation / urban renewal construction projects.



If you get that amount of tax credit for 'urban renewal', and are not an urban renewal business, its VERY hard to believe, that you achieved that without making high losses in other fields actionable.

The real estate developer that gets more on historic preservation grants/urban renewal, than on the actual income from their properties (edit: over a period of 15 years), isnt born yet. 

And if he didnt have to pay the 5.2 million because of creative accounting, the 750USD figure holds true.

Oh no, the person screaming liar, seems to have spread something akin to a lie as well. 

edit: And Mother Jones is usually well researched, so the 'no shocker there' statement is made up.

edit2: Proof:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/mother-jones/

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/mother-jones-bias-and-reliability/


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## Foxi4 (Sep 29, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> So Mother Jones is a liar (no shocker there) and unless you want to edit that for us, you are too. It was explained on the previous page, using language directly from the NYT source article, that Trump actually paid $5.2 million up front in 2016 and 2017 when requesting an extension to file, and then when he did actually file he covered his entire tax liability (except for $750) using over $9 million in federal tax credits earned for historic preservation / urban renewal construction projects. The $5.2 million didn't need to be touched, so it was rolled forward for taxes he will owe in the future. That's money he actually has "on account" at the IRS right now. His accountants worked his taxes for 2016 and 2017 to leave a $750 amount of tax he would pay. Don't ask me why, it's for some reasons accountants would know. But he_ paid_ _millions_. Not $750. You're spreading a lie. Which makes you, what?


"He paid millions when he actually only owed $750" doesn't have the same ring to it, does it? You have to pick a spicy tidbit for the headline, otherwise your yellow journalism isn't very attractive.


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## smf (Sep 29, 2020)

I don't know whether Trump is just disastrously terrible at making money or whether he is a tax cheat (and it looks like both are true).

But he is definitely a lying weasel as he said repeatedly he would release his tax returns but so far has failed to do so.

He says he won't because his returns are under review, but every president is always under review while they are president and so when he said he was going to release them then he was purposefully misleading (AKA lying).

There is no hope for anyone who believes a word that comes out of his mouth. If he told me it was raining then I would check.


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## wartutor (Sep 29, 2020)

All these people screaming release your tax returns...reminds me of obama and everyone screaming "release your birth certificate." Ive still not seen that lmao.


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## notimp (Sep 29, 2020)

smf said:


> I don't know whether Trump is just disastrously terrible at making money or whether he is a tax cheat (and it looks like both are true).


Short summery:
He inherited huge sums, that if invested in state pension funds (rate of interest wise), would roughly have him where hes at in estimated net worth. (see Economist source I mentioned).

So not a huge failure, but not a winner either.

That and his father made his money by developing properties at a time where there were large state subsidies to do so (but then many immensely rich families in the US have that in common), but he 'never broke into the Manhattan business (high prestige)'. Trump did. He wasnt exceptionally successful, but he was without scruple, which is looked for in business development (so other set of morals applies), to the point where he scalped on casino businesses in Vegas (you buy up a property before it goes insolvent, at a very low price (owners want to get rid of it), then you dont turn it arround, but squeeze it, sell its assets, and declare bankruptcy. That gives you the 'losses' for you to claim that in the last 15 years you've never made money, to then pay no taxes.

Not only that (because Trump isnt so much in the scalping business anymore, ruined his image), but 'stuff like that'. He basically cut financiers, and businesspartners that believed in the Trump brand, until most of investors dint finance his companies anymore. And he wasnt politically 'shunned' back then. (He wasnt in politics yet.  )

So he has prestige, still the remains of a considerable heritage, and no morals in many aspects. So - nothing new there...


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## erikas (Sep 29, 2020)

Taxation is theft. He avoided taxes? Good.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 29, 2020)

erikas said:


> Taxation is theft. He avoided taxes? Good.


No step on de snek, no taxation without a Papa John's for all at the end of the tax year, I can roll with that. I too am saddened that Donald Trump paid $750 too much in the egregious, offensive and nonsensical income tax.


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## Hanafuda (Sep 29, 2020)

notimp said:


> Oh no, the person screaming liar, seems to have spread something akin to a lie as well.




If you think anything I described is false, take it up with the New York Times. 

If think the tax credits Trump earned by investing his business into major historic site preservation projects (have you _seen_ the Old Post Office renovation in Washington DC???) are bogus, take that up with the Federal government and the IRS.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



erikas said:


> Taxation is theft. He avoided taxes? Good.



Yes. Tax avoidance - good. Tax evasion - bad.


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## Lacius (Sep 29, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> Yes. Tax avoidance - good. Tax evasion - bad.


He either avoided taxes by being a bad businessman, or he wasn't a bad businessman and evaded taxes. Take your pick.


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## Hanafuda (Sep 29, 2020)

Lacius said:


> He either avoided taxes by being a bad businessman, or he wasn't a bad businessman and evaded taxes. Take your pick.



How is investing in historic site preservation projects and getting a large tax credit from the Federal government being a bad businessman? It's like getting a $5000 credit when you buy a hybrid car. Does that make you a bad automobile consumer?


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## Lacius (Sep 29, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> How is investing in historic site preservation projects and getting a large tax credit from the Federal government being a bad businessman? It's like getting a $5000 credit when you buy a hybrid car. Does that make you a bad automobile consumer?


His low taxes were largely because he reported losses greater than what he made. So, again, which is it?


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## Hanafuda (Sep 30, 2020)

Lacius said:


> His low taxes were largely because he reported losses greater than what he made. So, again, which is it?



That was in previous years. "10 of the 15 previous years" is what the NYT article said. Not 2016-2017 when he paid $5.2 million up front, then an additional $750 each year. As for why it is good practice to report some tax liability rather than zero, assuming that's why they worked in the $750 payments, ask his accountants. I understand how deductions work against gross income, how to file an itemized schedule A, how to eke out every available credit against tax owed ... but a tax expert I am not. But I'm assuming there's some reason for it because the NYT article also says the $9.1 million in credits for the historic preservation/renovation projects was more than enough to cover his full tax liability for both those years (2016-2017).

Also you certainly understand that Donald Trump has never had to sit down at the rolltop desk burning the midnight oil doing his taxes, right?? People with that kind of money have accountants and attorneys whose job is to process and file for their client's best benefit. Pay as little as possible. _That's_ _their_ _job._ Sometimes it means making a charitable donation to avoid moving into a higher tax bracket. Sometimes it means strategizing in advance to get some very juicy federal tax credits to offset costs of doing business (like construction and operating costs of a major hotel). Sometimes it means cutting losses by taking a bankruptcy. But it's unlikely Trump himself has spent much time micromanaging his wealth and properties for many years. That's what he's paying those people for. The megarich class paint general pictures, point in general directions, and then go have fun. When someone fucks up trying to recreate the vision, someone gets fired. This is how the world has always worked.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 30, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> That was in previous years. "10 of the 15 previous years" is what the NYT article said. Not 2016-2017 when he paid $5.2 million up front, then an additional $750 each year. As for why it is good practice to report some tax liability rather than zero, assuming that's why they worked in the $750 payments, ask his accountants. I understand how deductions work against gross income, how to file an itemized schedule A, how to eke out every available credit against tax owed ... but a tax expert I am not. But I'm assuming there's some reason for it because the NYT article also says the $9.1 million in credits for the historic preservation/renovation projects was more than enough to cover his full tax liability for both those years (2016-2017).
> 
> Also you certainly understand that Donald Trump has never had to sit down at the rolltop desk burning the midnight oil doing his taxes, right?? People with that kind of money have accountants and attorneys whose job is to process and file for their client's best benefit. Pay as little as possible. _That's_ _their_ _job._ Sometimes it means making a charitable donation to avoid moving into a higher tax bracket. Sometimes it means strategizing in advance to get some very juicy federal tax credits to offset costs of doing business (like construction and operating costs of a major hotel). Sometimes it means cutting losses by taking a bankruptcy. But it's unlikely Trump himself has spent much time micromanaging his wealth and properties for many years. That's what he's paying those people for. The megarich class paint general pictures, point in general directions, and then go have fun. When someone fucks up trying to recreate the vision, someone gets fired. This is how the world has always worked.


It's worth noting that the losses Trump was talking about were due to depreciation. When you own an asset, its value depreciates over time due to wear and tear, among other factors. To continue with the car analogy, if you buy a car from a dealer, it loses value the moment you drive off the lot, from retail value to wholesale value. By the end of the first year of use its value depreciates by 40% - that's nearly half of what you paid down the drain, and the thing doesn't even have a scratch on it. The utility of the asset hasn't reduced - that car will serve you with little to no maintenance required for 5 years at least, and another 20 with a little TLC, although few people hold on to a vehicle for that long. The trick here is to offset the "loss" you take by continued investment against the utility you gain from the asset, in this case a car. It may cost you a couple of bucks to wash the damn thing, keep the tank full etc., but it also takes you to and fro work where you earn X, X being higher than your utility costs. That doesn't mean you didn't take a hit on the car - you did, but that loss is spread across years upon years of use whilst providing you with what's effectively a revenue stream in this analogy. That's big brain maths though, so we won't get into why driving a car around town is superior to legging it.


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## AdamCatalyst (Sep 30, 2020)

notimp said:


> Whistleblower.
> 
> Concept: Someone witnesses a crime, know, that internally it would be concealed by a company or state, or that there is no internally, because its a private person. They go to the press. Press has to gage if this is in the public interest, and then can publish.
> 
> ...



You have no idea what you're talking about.

First, there is no whistleblower. A whistleblower is an insider who goes public with their knowledge of illegal wrongdoing. As of right now, no-one is even alleging that such a person exists. 

Secondly there is no alleged crime. So even if there was a whistleblower, what would they be blowing the whistle on… prudent corporate accounting?

Now, it is a federal crime to disseminate someone else's tax records without consent. I do not know the letter of the law in that regard, I could be misinterpreting 26 U.S. Code § 7213. The New York Times, or their source, could be in violation of that law. I don't know.

Separation of power is another concept altogether. That has to do with limitations on power and utility in branches of government. 

Democracy, is also yet another thing altogether, and I'm not going to explant act one to you. Maybe look it up in Wikipedia?

Seriously, you should look up and read about every single concept you referenced. Because you literally got everything wrong. Perhaps you have something important or interesting to say, but it is hard to take you seriously when it doesn't seem like you even understand your own words.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

As someone who has run a very small corporation, and has an accountant, I can tell you that even minor corporate accounting is very complex. Virtually everyone pays at least one account to handle it, if not a team, with lawyers as well. And they all know their job… pay as little tax as possible while protecting the corporation by ensuing that they are on the right side of the law. I regularly pay little to no income tax, but that doesn't mean my corporation doesn't pay various taxes, as well as collect various taxes for the government. There are many different ways that taxes can be structured, and if you are not being paid a conventional salary, that open up even more options. There is nothing abnormal or irregular about what is being reported about Trump's taxes. There is nothing abnormal about leveraging assets, borrowing and paying interest at a lower rate than asset appreciation, and using asset depreciation to offset taxable earnings. These are just the basics. It can get crazy complex. If all you have ever done is a personal tax return for regular jobs, you have no idea what corporate tax returns can look like, and what your personal tax return can look like if you own corporate assets.


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## erikas (Sep 30, 2020)

Lacius said:


> He either avoided taxes by being a bad businessman, or he wasn't a bad businessman and evaded taxes. Take your pick.


You do realise that Trump has a tax accountant work for him, whose sole job it is to find as many tax loopholes as possible? Thats not illegal, nor is it wrong, since literally every other buisness does it.


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## notimp (Sep 30, 2020)

erikas said:


> You do realise that Trump has a tax accountant work for him, whose sole job it is to find as many tax loopholes as possible? Thats not illegal, nor is it wrong, since literally every other buisness does it.


So no businesses pay taxes? Or Trump is especially good at avoiding them? Or Trump is especially poor at business? Or two of the above:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rump-a-bad-businessman-or-a-tax-probably-both

Says 'an accountant'.


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## smf (Sep 30, 2020)

notimp said:


> Short summery:
> He inherited huge sums, that if invested in state pension funds (rate of interest wise), would roughly have him where hes at in estimated net worth. (see Economist source I mentioned).
> 
> So not a huge failure, but not a winner either.



You're forgetting all the money that he lost for everyone else that got written off. So yes, a completely massive loser but enough of a liar, thief & cheat that he managed to sort himself out at the expense of others.


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## notimp (Sep 30, 2020)

I asked myself and even in here, who the heck would finance Trump to the extent of 300+ million in private loans in an economy like this.

I was a dummy.

Just found out, that most of Trumps business ventures (investment wise) are located outside the USA. Big aha moment. 

see f.e.: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...he-hypocrite-investing-overseas-fine-for-him/

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2019/06/trump-foreign-business-interests/

Trump paid more taxes to the Philippines, than to the US:
https://www.rappler.com/nation/trump-firms-paid-more-taxes-philippines-than-united-states


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## LumInvader (Sep 30, 2020)

Cylent1 said:


> WOW!
> So where did he break the law?
> Also no mention of his yearly $400,000 presidential salary goes to charity!
> You haters have nothing better to do than hate!
> By the way, Trump supports Oxygen.  *So all you haters can hold your breath now until he out of office 4 years from now!*


Your statement appears to be based on your personal feelings with very little basis in reality.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

*Biden 50.4% *(+7.3)
*Trump 43.1%
*
Similarly, the most recent Fox News polls have Biden ahead by 5 points.  If you're expecting a repeat polling error in swing states in 2020, it should be noted that during the 2018 election cycle, pollsters adjusted for the undersampled non-college educated white voter block who weren't properly accounted for in 2016.  In other words, the surprise election day bump Trump received is already baked into today's polls.

One more note of interest here: Biden's Electoral College win probability if he wins the popular vote by X points:

0-1 points: just 6%!
1-2 points: 22%
2-3 points: 46%
3-4 points: 74%
4-5 points: 89%
5-6 points: 98%
6-7 points: 99%

Source: https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1301190941110341632


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## Gamemaster1379 (Sep 30, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> See, this is just false, but most people have no idea how tax law works and for liberals it's what they want to hear (he only paid $750!!!!), so they run with it. The truth is right there in the NYT article. Trump is actually _paid ahead_ millions in taxes. Anyone who thinks he only paid $750 in taxes either has a reading comprehension problem, or is happy spreading lies.
> 
> View attachment 226478
> View attachment 226479


A little disappointing it took up to the 9th post in this topic for someone to point this out.


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## Cylent1 (Oct 1, 2020)

LumInvader said:


> Your statement appears to be based on your personal feelings with very little basis in reality.
> 
> https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/
> 
> ...



OK then....
 My 1st point: FACT
My 2nd point: FACT
How did the national 2016 polls turn out for you then?  Not Good FACT!
And then let me know how they turned out for you on Nov 4th!


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## LumInvader (Oct 1, 2020)

Cylent1 said:


> OK then....
> My 1st point: FACT
> My 2nd point: FACT
> *How did the national 2016 polls turn out for you then?  Not Good FACT!
> And then let me know how they turned out for you on Nov 4th!*


Reading comprehension 101.  You need to pay closer attention to the context of the post you're responding to. As I already explained to you:

_If you're expecting a repeat polling error in swing states in 2020, it should be noted that during the 2018 election cycle, pollsters adjusted for the undersampled non-college educated white voter block who weren't properly accounted for in 2016. In other words, the surprise election day bump Trump received is already baked into today's polls.
_
Citations:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...-enough-white-voters-without-college-degrees/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_...election#Comparison_to_pre-election_forecasts

If you're expecting a repeat of 2016 on Nov. 3rd, it's far less likely now that the current polls are accounting for the non-college white demographic that that were undersampled in 2016.  Of course you could argue that the bump will be even larger than 2016, but I don't think you're going to convince any reasonable person that Trump's support has INCREASED in size after a pandemic response that 58% of the country blames him for:

https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...al-of-trumps-handling-of-coronavirus-pandemic

Couldn't care less about your other exaggerated claims.


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## notimp (Oct 1, 2020)

Oh yeah, the Felix Sater story....


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## Lacius (Oct 1, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> That was in previous years. "10 of the 15 previous years" is what the NYT article said. Not 2016-2017 when he paid $5.2 million up front, then an additional $750 each year. As for why it is good practice to report some tax liability rather than zero, assuming that's why they worked in the $750 payments, ask his accountants. I understand how deductions work against gross income, how to file an itemized schedule A, how to eke out every available credit against tax owed ... but a tax expert I am not. But I'm assuming there's some reason for it because the NYT article also says the $9.1 million in credits for the historic preservation/renovation projects was more than enough to cover his full tax liability for both those years (2016-2017).
> 
> Also you certainly understand that Donald Trump has never had to sit down at the rolltop desk burning the midnight oil doing his taxes, right?? People with that kind of money have accountants and attorneys whose job is to process and file for their client's best benefit. Pay as little as possible. _That's_ _their_ _job._ Sometimes it means making a charitable donation to avoid moving into a higher tax bracket. Sometimes it means strategizing in advance to get some very juicy federal tax credits to offset costs of doing business (like construction and operating costs of a major hotel). Sometimes it means cutting losses by taking a bankruptcy. But it's unlikely Trump himself has spent much time micromanaging his wealth and properties for many years. That's what he's paying those people for. The megarich class paint general pictures, point in general directions, and then go have fun. When someone fucks up trying to recreate the vision, someone gets fired. This is how the world has always worked.


Some highlights, since you didn't address anything I was talking about:

Trump avoided hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes specifically by telling the IRS that his business dealings were consistently unprofitable.
In 2016, Trump paid $750 in federal income taxes. In his first year in the White House (2017), he paid another $750.
In 2018, for example, Trump disclosed he made at least $434.9 million. According to his taxes, however, it was $47.4 million in losses, which is why he paid so little in taxes that year.
Trump's finances are under stress, due to business losses and hundreds of millions of dollars in debt coming due that he has personally guaranteed.
Over the past decade, Trump appears to have filled cash-flow gaps with a series of one-shot loans that may not be available again.
In 2012, for example, Trump took out a $100 million mortgage on the commercial space in Trump Tower. He took nearly the entire amount as a payout. His company has paid more than $15 million in interest on the loan, but nothing on the principal. The full $100 million comes due in 2022.
Trump also has loans coming due for the Doral golf resort ($125 million) and the Washington hotel ($160 million).
Overall, Trump is responsible for loans and other debts totaling $421 million, with most of it coming due within four years. Trump is losing money every year, and we're unaware of any way he could pay these debts.
These debts are a national security issue, particularly when it was secret, and Trump apparently has no way to repay these loans. For one, if someone merely knows about the debts while they're secret, that's political dirt one has over the President. Second, Trump apparently has no way to pay back these loans that are due relatively soon, and we don't know what he would do (or did) in an effort to dig himself out of this hole. People with this amount of debt, due soon, with no apparent way to pay it back, never get national security clearance for these reasons, for example.
If Trump was a good businessman, then he committed tax fraud. If Trump did not commit tax fraud, then he was not a good businessman. Which is it? And, none of that touches on the national security issues involved.

This isn't an issue of somebody legally taking advantage of the tax law to benefit oneself. This is an example of:

At best, being a bad businessman
At worst, being a national security risk
In between, being a tax fraudster



erikas said:


> You do realise that Trump has a tax accountant work for him, whose sole job it is to find as many tax loopholes as possible? Thats not illegal, nor is it wrong, since literally every other buisness does it.


See above.


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## Hanafuda (Oct 1, 2020)

Lacius said:


> Some highlights, since you didn't address anything I was talking about:
> 
> Trump avoided hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes specifically by telling the IRS that his business dealings were consistently unprofitable.
> In 2016, Trump paid $750 in federal income taxes. In his first year in the White House (2017), he paid another $750.
> ...




I'm sure you must be right about all that and the IRS is wrong. You should tell them.


.


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## Lacius (Oct 1, 2020)

Hanafuda said:


> I'm sure you must be right about all that and the IRS is wrong. You should tell them.


Are you saying the IRS has contradicted the NYT reporting?


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## Prior22 (Oct 1, 2020)

gregory-samba said:


> Tax credits and deductions are normal and legal. We all already knew that the Left simply wanted his taxes to attack him with and it turns out he's recently been audited and nothing out of the ordinary was found. He's also gave away his entire $400,000 Presidential Salary every year since 2016 and if you have an ounce of an idea how donations are handled during tax time you'd realize that paying $0.00 in taxes when you've given away $400,000 is absolutely legal and normal. Even the New York Times admits that the taxes aren't a big deal after all. All of that Liberal whining for 4 years was over nothing.
> 
> Of course the Left is going to attack him regardless of guilt. I also understand Trump saying it's fake news because he doesn't have access to the taxes that the New York Times has to verify they are legit and also because of the amount of bullshit spin attacks coming from the Left over a nothing burger. It's pretty neat though as I never thought a group of people could keep progressively failing time after time. There were no major "Russian" influences in his taxes or anything remotely illegal. Liberals are a damned joke.



Tell Trump to release his god damn tax returns, like every other President has done for years, then any misinterpretation won't be possible.  If Obama in 2008 refused to release his tax returns you can bet your bottom dollar FOX News would have never let him hear the end of it.

And don't give me the audit BS either.  Four plus years for a tax audit?  If you believe that you're even more gullible than your typical non college educated MAGA supporter.


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## Lacius (Oct 1, 2020)

Prior22 said:


> Tell Trump to release his god damn tax returns, like every other President has done for years, then any misinterpretation won't be possible.  If Obama in 2008 to released his tax returns you can bet your bottom dollar FOX News would have never let him hear the end of it.
> 
> And don't give me the audit BS either.  Four plus years for a tax audit?  If you believe that you're even more gullible than your typical non college educated MAGA supporter.


More importantly, presidential candidates have released their tax returns while being under audit. An audit is completely irrelevant to the topic of releasing tax returns.

Trump does not have, and has never had, any intention of releasing his tax returns. He lied, like always.


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## gregory-samba (Oct 2, 2020)

Prior22 said:


> Tell Trump to release his god damn tax returns, like every other President has done for years, then any misinterpretation won't be possible.  If Obama in 2008 refused to release his tax returns you can bet your bottom dollar FOX News would have never let him hear the end of it.
> 
> And don't give me the audit BS either.  Four plus years for a tax audit?  If you believe that you're even more gullible than your typical non college educated MAGA supporter.



The New York Times confirmed Trump has been being audited for years and due to the amount, some $70 million it's taking a very long time. I also don't think people's personal tax information is anyone else's business. If he wants to release them fine, if not that's his prerogative.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Welp, looks like Trump and the first lady have the COVID. This will probably put a dent in the scheduled debates, but due to the survival rate I highly doubt Trump is going to get very ill let alone die.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/president-trump-lady-test-positive-covid-19/story?id=73380448


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## Prior22 (Oct 2, 2020)

gregory-samba said:


> The New York Times confirmed Trump has been being audited for years and due to the amount, some $70 million it's taking a very long time. I also don't think people's personal tax information is anyone else's business. If he wants to release them fine, if not that's his prerogative.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Every President for years has released his tax returns voluntarily.  Unless you're hiding something there's no reason to ignore that precedent.  

Also Trump is an overweight senior citizen.  He's a prime target to die from Covid.  Unsurprisingly Biden tested negative. Who knows maybe Trump was wrong about questioning the necessity of masks.  Just like he was wrong about promising Mexico would pay for a border wall.  Or that prior to the pandemic he would lower the deficit.


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## gregory-samba (Oct 2, 2020)

Prior22 said:


> Every President for years has released his tax returns voluntarily.  Unless you're hiding something there's no reason to ignore that precedent.
> 
> Also Trump is an overweight senior citizen.  He's a prime target to die from Covid.  Unsurprisingly Biden tested negative. Who knows maybe Trump was wrong about questioning the necessity of masks.  Just like he was wrong about promising Mexico would pay for a border wall.  Or that prior to the pandemic he would lower the deficit.



The death rate for obese old people is still really low. He's also not morbidly obese and he's in decent shape. He's not the type that sits on their ass all day long. I agree that those two risk factors increase the chances he'll die, but the chances overall are so low that I don't think it'll be a problem.

Just because everyone else released their private tax returns doesn't mean you have to. If Trump wants to keep his private affairs private that is his choice and should be able to choose to without people harping on him. Just because you don't want others up in your business doesn't mean you have anything to hide especially when the "others" have stated they want them to fuck him over. They've planned to go after him before they even know if there's any irregularities regardless if he did wrong or not. The fucked up people are the ones demanding they see his taxes and the ones who want to ruin him. Plus the IRS already has them. He's not a bad person for wanting to keep his personal information to himself. You're the bad person.

Trump has also kept most of his campaign promises. That's far better than his predecessor or other Government figures.


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## SG854 (Oct 2, 2020)

If Trump doesn't want to pay his taxes i'm fine with that. He is the cool guy that doesn't play by anyone's rules.


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## Prior22 (Oct 2, 2020)

gregory-samba said:


> The death rate for obese old people is still really low. He's also not morbidly obese and he's in decent shape. He's not the type that sits on their ass all day long. I agree that those two risk factors increase the chances he'll die, but the chances overall are so low that I don't think it'll be a problem.
> 
> Just because everyone else released their private tax returns doesn't mean you have to. If Trump wants to keep his private affairs private that is his choice and should be able to choose to without people harping on him. Just because you don't want others up in your business doesn't mean you have anything to hide especially when the "others" have stated they want them to fuck him over. They've planned to go after him before they even know if there's any irregularities regardless if he did wrong or not. The fucked up people are the ones demanding they see his taxes and the ones who want to ruin him. Plus the IRS already has them. He's not a bad person for wanting to keep his personal information to himself. You're the bad person.
> 
> Trump has also kept most of his campaign promises. That's far better than his predecessor or other Government figures.



Trump had three big campaign promises:

-Mexico would pay for the border wall
-Repeal and replace the ACA (which was made easier to accomplish with the two years of GOP controlled House and Senate prior to 2019.)
-Lower the deficit 

None were accomplished.


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