# US Government to shut down in less than an hour, would be first single-party shutdown ever



## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/19/16911148/government-shutdown-unified-control

This is all essentially a result of the "shithole countries" thing, as at the time Trump said he was willing to sign any bipartisan funding bill brought to him.  So Trump undermined his own party and went back on his word because he specifically dislikes DACA, and now here we are.  Do you think they'll avoid this last second?  Or is the shutdown inevitable?

Roughly 80% of Americans support DACA, according to a number of polls.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/americans-back-daca-huge-margin-poll/story?id=50032985


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## brickmii82 (Jan 20, 2018)

Well, I don’t think he dislikes DACA, I think it’s that he wants to accomplish a long term deal to brag about later. It’s ironic though that he spoke at that anti-abortion march or whatever it was, talking about how all kids deserve a chance. Then torpedoes any effort to keep kids healthcare in the interest of ego and pride. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s how I see it.


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## Vahnyyz (Jan 20, 2018)

it's not uncommon at all, and as far as "80% of americans" that's a bull**** poll, because that's not true. The system for immigration is bad and it needs to be reworked. I don't care if they call it daydream dreamers daca or Caca. what they need to do is fix it and stop being stupid about it


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> it's not uncommon at all, and as far as "80% of americans" that's a bull**** poll, because that's not true. The system for immigration is bad and it needs to be reworked. I don't care if they call it daydream dreamers daca or Caca. what they need to do is fix it and stop being stupid about it


The bipartisan bill that was brought before Trump included both money for border security and for DACA.  "Fix it" doesn't mean "deport 'em all and forget about it."

And the actual number is 86% support.  I was being conservative so as to try not to offend anybody's delicate political sensibilities.  Look up 20 polls if you like, they'll all be in that range.


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## Viri (Jan 20, 2018)

It shut down before, and fuck all happened.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Viri said:


> It shut down before, and fuck all happened.


Every time the government is shut down, a ton of money is lost and military members are hit hardest.


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## Thedge (Jan 20, 2018)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ this doesn't seem like that big of a deal? like, unless there's massive riots or something i cant see this being a suuuuper big deal, its not martial law or anything. but what do i know? im just a leaf.


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## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

Thirty3Three said:


> hanst the gov't shatut down beffor? itsa not inclcommon right?


Did you have a stroke while writing that? And it's pretty common yea. Hasn't ever happened before when a single party has all 3 though.


Thedge said:


> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ this doesn't seem like that big of a deal? like, unless there's massive riots or something i cant see this being a suuuuper big deal, its not martial law or anything. but what do i know? im just a leaf.


It's a huge deal actually. If you work for a federal agency. Or need certain federal agency's assistance. And it causes a dip in the stock market too iirc.

The longer the shutdown lasts the bigger an issue it'll become.



Viri said:


> It shut down before, and fuck all happened.


The world is bigger than your basement. There's definitely consequences to this. As there has been before.


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## Thedge (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> And it causes a dip in the stock market too iirc.
> 
> The longer the shutdown lasts the bigger an issue it'll become.


ah, didnt even think about the stock market, thanks for the info.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Thedge said:


> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ this doesn't seem like that big of a deal? like, unless there's massive riots or something i cant see this being a suuuuper big deal, its not martial law or anything. but what do i know? im just a leaf.


It hurts some parts of the population more than others, but mostly it's just a massive failure of leadership when you control all three branches of government and still can't keep it functioning.  The Republican in-fighting is hilarious, but it's also likely to become damaging.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> it's not uncommon at all, and as far as "80% of americans" that's a bull**** poll, because that's not true. The system for immigration is bad and it needs to be reworked. I don't care if they call it daydream dreamers daca or Caca. what they need to do is fix it and stop being stupid about it


Wanna give us an in-depth explanation on why you think our immigration system is so bad?


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## Hanafuda (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Look up 20 polls if you like, they'll all be in that range.



Yeah polls are so objective and unburdened by the agenda/bias of those who frame them.

Did you hear? Hillary's got a 96% chance of winning!


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

Sorta, but this is.. Un-usual because the majority republican p


TotalInsanity4 said:


> Wanna give us an in-depth explanation on why you think our immigration system is so bad?



Cause most Republicans are scared of anyone who isn't a white christian.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Yeah polls are so objective and unburdened by the agenda/bias of those who frame them.
> 
> Did you hear? Hillary's got a 96% chance of winning!


Eh, just because the odds are in your favor doesn't mean you'll win. Plus, she _did _win the popular vote by, what, 2 million votes?


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Eh, just because the odds are in your favor doesn't mean you'll win. Plus, she _did _win the popular vote by, what, 2 million votes?




But...But Trump has proof that it was voter fraud... Proof he refuses to release. x.x


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## Hanafuda (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Eh, just because the odds are in your favor doesn't mean you'll win. *Plus, she did win the popular vote by, what, 2 million votes?*



Irrelevant. But we all know that.

Thing is, depending on the conditions of a poll, a person may be taken as supporting something even if that support were conceded conditionally. For example, I'd support amnesty and a path to citizenship for DACA people if it came along with funding for a secured border and universal voter ID. Does that mean I support DACA? Maybe.



Tigran said:


> But...But Trump has proof that it was voter fraud... Proof he refuses to release. x.x



Doesn't matter. Popular vote tallies are irrelevant in the Presidential election. Trump won by the rules. You'll need a Constitutional amendment to change them.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> Yeah polls are so objective and unburdened by the agenda/bias of those who frame them.
> 
> Did you hear? Hillary's got a 96% chance of winning!


Most polls at election time gave Trump around a 33% chance of winning, which is significant.

I also said to look up the polls for yourself so I can't frame them for you.  Regardless of whether the source is right or left leaning, the numbers are gonna end up about the same as long as the poll was conducted scientifically.

Government shutdown deadline has passed, though Senators are still on the floor hashing things out.


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## brickmii82 (Jan 20, 2018)

It just shut down


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

brickmii82 said:


> It just shut down


Hoo boy...


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## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Hoo boy...


Don't get too worried. Unless someone in your family works for the federal government or so you probably won't feel the effects of it. Not unless it drags on a long time.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> Don't get too worried. Unless someone in your family works for the federal government or so you probably won't feel the effects of it. Not unless it drags on a long time.


They're talking about having a deal done before the end of the weekend, but with the volatility and unpredictability of Trump, I'm not going to be placing any bets on how long the shutdown lasts.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


> snip


Please try to stay on topic and not be childish.

My father is a civilian working as a physical therapist for the military, after having served in the Navy and retiring from the Army.  So obviously he is impacted by this unless it's resolved quickly.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> Don't get too worried. Unless someone in your family works for the federal government or so you probably won't feel the effects of it. Not unless it drags on a long time.


That's what I'm concerned about. I don't personally know anyone that would be impacted, but since I work at a grocery store I end up seeing a LOT of people receiving government benefits that, if I understand correctly, won't be renewed until after the budget is worked out


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## th3joker (Jan 20, 2018)

ill let you kids in on a little secret about "government". its all a pretend shit show just like professional tv wrestling. its there for the illusion of "control". im willing to bet it will be purposly let to be shut down as to use as yet so ething else to argue about and use as a chess move.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 20, 2018)

I generally support democrats, but even I think it's unfair to call this a single party shutdown. It's literally impossible to pass a budget without Democrats, since there's 51 Republican Senators and the budget needs 60 votes. 

This a complex issue, there's several factors. There's Trump, who changed his mind at the last minute on DACA and rejected a bipartisan budget, there's CHIP, the health insurance program for children, which some republicans aren't a fan of, there's the fact that Democrats want both of those things and don't want things like Trump's wall, which withers Republican support significantly. 

Wherever you stand on those issues, Republicans and Democrats are trying to pass all their goals at once and won't concede anything to the other. And thus, the government is shut down. I agree with Democrats on their positions on all of these issues, but I don't think this is a good idea, and am disappointed in them and Republicans alike. The budget isn't a toy, but both sides are treating it as such. 

And to top it all of, even if republicans and democrats agree on a budget, they'll still likely need trump to sign it, which is hard to do since he's changed his mind on DACA, CHIP, and the wall at least once each this week. He has no idea how government budgeting works, and that's why we're getting a shutdown on the first anniversary of his presidency.


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 20, 2018)

th3joker said:


> ill let you kids in on a little secret about "government". its all a pretend shit show just like professional tv wrestling. its there for the illusion of "control". im willing to bet it will be purposly let to be shut down as to use as yet so ething else to argue about and use as a chess move.


Or you are a crackpot conspiracy theorist. I wonder which is more likely...


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## Anfroid (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> Don't get too worried. Unless someone in your family works for the federal government or so you probably won't feel the effects of it. Not unless it drags on a long time.


I work for the federal government. Probably still wont feel any effect from this.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 20, 2018)

Anfroid said:


> I work for the federal government. Probably still wont feel any effect from this.


Depending on where you work, you might not be getting paid for a little while


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## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

Anfroid said:


> I work for the federal government. Probably still wont feel any effect from this.


You won't be getting paid (on time) and maybe won't for the days of the shutdown. Unless you work in a couple select federal branches.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> And to top it all of, even if republicans and democrats agree on a budget, they'll still likely need trump to sign it, which is hard to do since he's changed his mind on DACA, CHIP, and the wall at least once each this week. He has no idea how government budgeting works, and that's why we're getting a shutdown on the first anniversary of his presidency.


That's been the biggest hurdle from the beginning and I think it will continue to be to the end.  Don't forget that Republicans and Democrats already had a deal, they had done their part, it was simply up to Trump to man up and accept the compromise.  He didn't, and there's no reason to believe he'll accept the next compromise, either.


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## Anfroid (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> You won't be getting paid (on time) and maybe won't for the days of the shutdown. *Unless you work in a couple select federal branches.*


And that's why I wont be feeling any of the effect.


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## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

Anfroid said:


> And that's why I wont be feeling any of the effect.


Good for you?


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## slaphappygamer (Jan 20, 2018)

Republicant = Trump. Sure we all have flaws, but this guy has no clue and he is putting all of USA in a bad position. Super reckless.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Please try to stay on topic and not be childish.
> 
> My father is a civilian working as a physical therapist for the military, after having served in the Navy and retiring from the Army.  So obviously he is impacted by this unless it's resolved quickly.



You know.. I wouldn't mind the Military having a larger budget.. If it went to help the Vets and R&D to help the solders survive and better pay for them.

Instead it's spend on one of Congressman or Senator *I don't remember* factory that makes tanks we don't need *seriously, we have three time the tanks than we have people to drive them*

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slaphappygamer said:


> Republicant = Trump. Sure we all have flaws, but this guy has no clue and he is putting all of USA in a bad position. Super reckless.



No.. he knows perfectly. He's just in it for the money.

As much as dislike Bush Jr and thought he was an idiot. I still believe he tried to do what he honestly believed was right for the country (Weather it was or not is debatable)


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

When all repubs voted to keep funding 100% with 51 votes and the Dems purposely voted against funding 100%, that is the Dems fault and nobody elses fault.
They would rather see America fail than Trump succeed...  Pure definition of fascism communism!


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> You know.. I wouldn't mind the Military having a larger budget.. If it went to help the Vets and R&D to help the solders survive and better pay for them.
> 
> Instead it's spend on one of Congressman or Senator *I don't remember* factory that makes tanks we don't need *seriously, we have three time the tanks than we have people to drive them*


The US is the richest nation on Earth, I don't mind high military spending as long as we have parity with social spending.  Stuff like infrastructure, healthcare (including mental health centers), renewable energy (cheaper in the long run), and NASA.


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

You all act like Trump is Hitler!!!  Trump is a class act and would stand up for this country when none of our elected officails would.   He is single handidly taking on the globalists and winning all the while MAGA!
I can finally say Trump is my president


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The US is the richest nation on Earth, I don't mind high military spending as long as we have parity with social spending.  Stuff like infrastructure, healthcare (including mental health centers), energy, and NASA.



Still no reason to build tanks and planes we don't need. 

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Cylent1 said:


> You all act like Trump is Hitler!!!  Trump is a class act and would stand up for this country when none of our elected officails would.   He is single handidly taking on the globalists and winning all the while MAGA!
> I can finally say Trump is my president



Um... Trump is literally doing what Hitler did. Not to mention he won't denounce the nazi's. That puts him if not in Hitler's zone.. Stalin's.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Still no reason to build tanks and planes we don't need.


Agreed, overall defense spending could be cut by around a third and they'd still have everything they need to operate in the same manner.  Makes it all the more sad that we see Bernie Sanders' ideas as "unrealistic," yet Trump's wall of burning taxpayer money is perfectly reasonable.


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Still no reason to build tanks and planes we don't need.


I guess it would be better to keep funding and sending our military surplus to terrorist orgs overseas like the past 2 or administartions did?

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Tigran said:


> Still no reason to build tanks and planes we don't need.
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...


You are full of yourself!  Hitler put people in ovens....
You liberals worship communist dictators but the so called one that is our POTUS!
Even Seattle has a Joseph Stalin statue on display with love right in the open for everybody to see.


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> When all repubs voted to keep funding 100% with 51 votes and the Dems purposely voted against funding 100%, that is the Dems fault and nobody elses fault.
> They would rather see America fail than Trump succeed...  Pure definition of fascism communism!


"The GOP controls _all the branches of government_. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell couldn’t even get his whole caucus on board, with defecting votes from Mike Lee, Rand Paul, Jeff Flake, and Lindsey Graham. They only got to over 50 votes—let alone 60—because five red-state Democrats (Claire McKaskill, Heidi Heitkamp, Joe Manchin, Joe Donnelly, and Doug Jones) voted with Republicans."

Talking a lot of bullshit, ain't ya?


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Trump is a class act and would stand up for this country when none of our elected officails would.   He is single handidly taking on the globalists and winning all the while MAGA!


The majority of Trump's money has not come from America at this point, he is a globalist.  So he's standing up to nobody, and failing all the while to do a decent job of governing.


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

blackwrensniper said:


> "The GOP controls _all the branches of government_. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell couldn’t even get his whole caucus on board, with defecting votes from Mike Lee, Rand Paul, Jeff Flake, and Lindsey Graham. They only got to over 50 votes—let alone 60—because five red-state Democrats (Claire McKaskill, Heidi Heitkamp, Joe Manchin, Joe Donnelly, and Doug Jones) voted with Republicans."
> 
> Talking a lot of bullshit, ain't ya?


You still need total 60 votes and when GOP has only 51 available, the dems need to step up!  What you are talking about is horse rubbish.
Cut their damn paychecks since they are govt and see how fast this gets voted for!!!


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> You still need total 60 votes and when GOP has only 51 available, the dems need to step up!  What you are talking about is horse rubbish.
> Cut their damn paychecks since they are govt and see how fast this gets voted for!!!


If you had read the rest of this thread, you'd know the Dems and Repubs had already come to a compromise and Trump rejected it.  This shutdown is on him most of all.  #TrumpShutdown is trending worldwide on Twitter, so expect an early morning rant.


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

Everyone that is against Trump is a communist... PERIOD!
If you cannot stand with your potus , you do not love this country and need to leave and let Trump and the rest of us Americans MAGA!


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Everyone that is against Trump is a communist... PERIOD!
> If you cannot stand with your potus , you do not love this country and need to leave and let Trump and the rest of us Americans MAGA!


Well, now nobody can take you seriously in these discussions ever again.  Nice one.

And I'm sure you were just as loyal to the position of POTUS when Obama was in office.  /s


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> If you had read the rest of this thread, you'd know the Dems and Repubs had already come to a compromise and Trump rejected it.  This shutdown is on him most of all.  #TrumpShutdown is trending worldwide on Twitter, so expect an early morning rant.


Of course their is a Trump Shutdown Trending... it is Twitter after all!!!


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## Joe88 (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> If you had read the rest of this thread, you'd know the Dems and Repubs had already come to a compromise and Trump rejected it.  This shutdown is on him most of all.  #TrumpShutdown is trending worldwide on Twitter, so expect an early morning rant.


They didnt have a compromise, daca was never part of the bill and the daca bill didnt even exist so democrats couldnt even vote on it anyway
democrats tried to squeeze it in at the last second and thats why it didnt get the votes
too bad its bots are doing the twetting https://botcheck.me/


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Of course their is a Trump Shutdown Trending... it is Twitter after all!!!


Yeah, it's a shithole, which makes you question why it's the only online platform Trump cares about.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Everyone that is against Trump is a communist... PERIOD!
> If you cannot stand with your potus , you do not love this country and need to leave and let Trump and the rest of us Americans MAGA!



Uh.. You said that Trump was finally someone you called your president. That means you didn't call Obama your president, which makes you a hypocrite, not to mention you don't even know what communism even means.

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Joe88 said:


> They didnt have a compromise, daca was never part of the bill and the daca bill didnt even exist so democrats couldnt even vote on it anyway
> democrats tried to squeeze it in at the last second and thats why it didnt get the votes
> too bad its bots are doing the twetting https://botcheck.me/



You mean like the republican's kept trying to sneak ACA into other bills?


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Well, now nobody can take you seriously in these discussions ever again.  Nice one.
> 
> And I'm sure you were just as loyal to the position of POTUS when Obama was in office.  /s


I can give 2 shits what people think about me... 
Obama?  he needs to be hung in public square!   When a guy admits in his own book he was born in kenya and is a muslim,  he had no right to even run as potus!
The entire Obama admin is going to prison very very soon...

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Xzi said:


> Yeah, it's a shithole, which makes you question why it's the only online platform Trump cares about.


Cause you think the main stream media will ever say 1 good thing about him?  Didnt think so.
Twitter is a platform for our POTUS to get the truth out that the MSM cant control!
Tuff shit if it hurts your feelings!


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 20, 2018)

God this forum is full of some stupid people sometimes.


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## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Obama?  he needs to be hung in public square!   When a guy admits in his own book he was born in kenya and is a muslim,  he had no right to even run as potus!
> The entire Obama admin is going to prison very very soon...


Fuck man, you really do not live in reality any more.  Trump never provided any proof of his birther claims.  We're on to the girther movement for Trump by now.



Joe88 said:


> They didnt have a compromise, daca was never part of the bill and the daca bill didnt even exist so democrats couldnt even vote on it anyway
> democrats tried to squeeze it in at the last second and thats why it didnt get the votes
> too bad its bots are doing the twetting https://botcheck.me/


That shows very little bot activity for #TrumpShutdown and a lot more bot activity for #SchumerShutdown which they failed to get trending, but okay, thanks for the data.



Cylent1 said:


> Twitter is a platform for our POTUS to get the truth out that the MSM cant control!
> Tuff shit if it hurts your feelings!


Oh yeah, all that misspelled shit with bad grammar really gets me right in the fee-fees.  /s


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## Cylent1 (Jan 20, 2018)

blackwrensniper said:


> God this forum is full of some stupid people sometimes.


Tell me about....


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

I heard Trump was born in Bavaria.

I want to see his long form Birth Certificate... and his taxes.


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## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> I can give 2 shits what people think about me...
> Obama?  he needs to be hung in public square!   When a guy admits in his own book he was born in kenya and is a muslim,  he had no right to even run as potus!
> The entire Obama admin is going to prison very very soon...
> 
> ...


Please take your medication. I'm worried for your mental health. None of these things you mentioned happened.


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## Arecaidian Fox (Jan 20, 2018)

Can't decide if Cylent1 is trolling or genuinely that far on the right. Text is toneless, but it's scary these days how hard it is to distinguish the two. At any rate, here we go...

As much as it hurts the economy and families dependent on the federal government, I'm glad for the shutdown. It's yet another mark against Trump and his administration, one on an already massive list. Maybe, three years from now and for all time after, people will remember just how shitty it was after electing this cluster of corrupt, arrogant, bigoted, racist and all around horrific people, and NEVER let them into office again.

A quick Obama v.s. Trump... To those who say that one should respect and stand beside the POTUS regardless of circumstance... No, absolutely not. Out of respect for the position, I give each President an amount of respect and patience, but ONLY TO START. Then they either lose that respect, keep it, or earn more. Trump has done NOTHING to either keep or earn any respect of mine, to the point where I stand firmly, morally against his agenda. Obama, observing the caliber of his character ALONE, not only keeps my respect, he earns more. Say what you will about any other aspects of our 44th President, but he has an intelligence and social grace that is immensely rare in today's world.

And to hit on some last points... Immigration is broken, fix it by allowing amnesty, improving and securely streamlining application processing for future immigrants. And in general stop being xenophobic. Women have the right to choose, people of all genders are PEOPLE, too, Science > Religion (keep religion of any kind out of federal and school systems), you should be allowed to marry any gender of your choosing, regardless of your own, and, now the FINAL AND MOST IMPORTANT point; don't be a fucking asshole.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

Arecaidian Fox said:


> Can't decide if Cylent1 is trolling or genuinely that far on the right. Text is toneless, but it's scary these days how hard it is to distinguish the two. At any rate, here we go...
> 
> As much as it hurts the economy and families dependent on the federal government, I'm glad for the shutdown. It's yet another mark against Trump and his administration, one on an already massive list. Maybe, three years from now and for all time after, people will remember just how shitty it was after electing this cluster of corrupt, arrogant, bigoted, racist and all around horrific people, and NEVER let them into office again.
> 
> ...



Not to mention the right should shut up about abortion, there is NOTHING in the bible about it... And considering god told people to rip out wombs... I don't think he's too against abortion.


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 20, 2018)

Arecaidian Fox said:


> Maybe, three years from now and for all time after, people will remember just how shitty it was after electing this cluster of corrupt, arrogant, bigoted, racist and all around horrific people, and NEVER let them into office again.


I thought the same under Bush and it's stunning how soon people forget.


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## Arecaidian Fox (Jan 20, 2018)

blackwrensniper said:


> I thought the same under Bush and it's stunning how soon people forget.


Don't remind me


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## Smoker1 (Jan 20, 2018)

They seriously need to get Term Limits for ALL those idiots in Office. They seem to forget: They are supposed to represent ALL AMERICANS. Not just the Rich, Wealthy, or their own damn Bank Accounts (and Offshore Bank Accounts)


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

blackwrensniper said:


> I thought the same under Bush and it's stunning how soon people forget.



True... But like I said, as much as I disliked Bush and thought he was an idiot.. I still think he was doing what he Honestly thought was good for the country. I'd rather have someone like that rather than trump that just wants money.

Hell.. NIXON has done more for the country than Trump has.


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## Arecaidian Fox (Jan 20, 2018)

Smoker1 said:


> They seriously need to get Term Limits for ALL those idiots in Office. They seem to forget: They are supposed to represent ALL AMERICANS. Not just the Rich, Wealthy, or their own damn Bank Accounts (and Offshore Bank Accounts)


Dude, 1,300th message. Nice.


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> True... But like I said, as much as I disliked Bush and thought he was an idiot.. I still think he was doing what he Honestly thought was good for the country. I'd rather have someone like that rather than trump that just wants money.
> 
> Hell.. NIXON has done more for the country than Trump has.


While I certainly don't disagree, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

blackwrensniper said:


> While I certainly don't disagree, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.



Oh.. I don't deny that.. But I'd rather have the good intentions.. instead of the greed and pure distaste for the country that Trump has.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> You all act like Trump is Hitler!!!  Trump is a class act and would stand up for this country when none of our elected officails would.   He is single handidly taking on the globalists and winning all the while MAGA!
> I can finally say Trump is my president


He's not Hitler, but to be fair he did reject a bipartisan budget that wouldve stopped this fiasco.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> He's not Hitler, but to be fair he did reject a bipartisan budget that wouldve stopped this fiasco.



Also.. if your religious.. Trump literally fits the description of the Anti-Christ.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Also.. if your religious.. Trump literally fits the description of the Anti-Christ.


Nah, the anti-christ is supposed to be smart and charismatic. The most I give Trump is charismatic, but he's done more damage through sheer stupidity than on purpose.


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## Deleted User (Jan 20, 2018)

i saw the title
i thought
anarchy in 1 hour? now i dont have to worry about police stopping me for carrying metal rods!
then i saw posted yesterday
and that is some boring political shit
now im sad


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Everyone that is against Trump is a communist... PERIOD!
> If you cannot stand with your potus , you do not love this country and need to leave and let Trump and the rest of us Americans MAGA!


Dude wtf? This is the practically the same thing Maduro says - "everyone that stands against the venezuelan president is a fascist". This is not how America works, you know. America is about working together, not hating those who disagree with you.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> Nah, the anti-christ is supposed to be smart and charismatic. The most I give Trump is charismatic, but he's done more damage through sheer stupidity than on purpose.



The Anti-Christ, again mimicking Jesus sovereignty, will rule for 42 months over the earth.  For three and a half years he “_was given authority to continue_ [literally “make war”]_ for forty-two months_” (Rev 13:5).  In fact the Anti-Christ “_was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation_“ (Rev 13:7).  Christians know who actually reigns supreme for Jesus is Lord of all and has been given all authority in heaven and on earth.  The Anti-Christ thinks he has power but he is given only as much power as God allows him to have.  All this mans power is within the sovereign plan of God as God can even use evil for good.

Whoever rules the world’s goods rules the unsaved world.  This man will have “_forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name_“ (Rev 13:16-17).  When people start getting hungry, they will do almost anything to keep from starving.  Even submit to an ungodly ruler.  He causes everyone to receive a mark so that they can’t even buy food or any goods at all unless they have his mark upon them.  This is also mimicking the sovereign God who gives to all, great and small, the sustenance to survive.  The Anti-Christ makes everyone receive his mark but this mark comes with a great price.

Daniel 11:31 mentions this abomination of desolation as his “_armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation_.” The “_daily sacrifice is abolished_“ (Dan 12:11).  He can not be trusted because “_He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue.  Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed. After coming to an agreement with him, he will act deceitfully, and with only a few people he will rise to power.  When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses-but only for a time_“ (Dan 11:21-24).  He is a liar and a thief of thieves.  He makes an agreement and promises peace but then breaks his promise and deceives many.



ThisIsDaAccount said:


> Dude wtf? This is the practically the same thing Maduro says - "everyone that stands against the venezuelan president is a fascist". This is not how America works, you know. America is about working together, not hating those who disagree with you.



Again.. I don't think he evens know what communism is.


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## hoist20032002 (Jan 20, 2018)

there goes people flipping out again with the "them" vs "us" bs scenerio. IF you think that re-pubes or demonrats actually care about anyone of you regardless of your affiliation than you've been drinking too much kool-aid and brainwashed by cnn/fox or whatever shit show ya watch. the OP is so biased that it's rediculous. yes trump is a pos just like all the presidents we've had in the past and ALL politicians lie just like the media. both sides aka lefties and righties need to unite instead of letting the media, hollywood, people in music and groups tell us what to do, to be outraged over nothing, to keep us divided. we didn't divide ourselves from our fellow americans back when obama was president and stirring the pot just as much as trump is now. so why have division now and not for those 8 years of obama or during bushes 8 years?


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Regardless of the political affiliation we're a part of, we can all agree that there are pretty damn idiotic people on both parties, and the White House is in need of a serious purge right about now. Like, as in, they being replaced by people who know what the hell they're doing and actually benefit the people of the US? Days like this I absolutely despise the government.  Oh and I know it hasn't been brought up, but there are some serious issues that need to be addressed, but the government is too uncaring and stupid to even focus on that, they only care to line their pockets with gold, not the people.

Also, I do have an opinion on sanctuary cities, and why I think they're stupid and how those who enable such a thing should be punished for violating federal laws, but I'll save that for another time.

"Oh, you want to protect people who entered here illegally by suing the government for violating the rights of the same people who came here illegally, despite the fact that protecting illegals from deportation for their violating the law? Okay".    Damned idiots who run those sanctuary cities, you're part of the problem. Illegal is illegal.   No wonder our government is jacked up.


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## Viri (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Regardless of the political affiliation we're a part of, we can all agree that there are pretty damn idiotic people on both parties


Well, there is a reason that Satan probably has a higher approval rating than Congress. I mean, at least Satan got things done, sure he had issues and all.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Viri said:


> Well, there is a reason that Satan probably has a higher approval rating than Congress. I mean, at least Satan got things done, sure he had issues and all.



Ugh, right now, my feelings towards most politicians isn't the best, I'm going to bed ><  Damn the government.


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> *Also, I do have an opinion on sanctuary cities, and why I think they're stupid and how those who enable such a thing should be punished for violating federal laws*, *but I'll save that for another time.*
> 
> "Oh, you want to protect people who entered here illegally by suing the government for violating the rights of the same people who came here illegally, despite the fact that protecting illegals from deportation for their violating the law? Okay".    Damned idiots who run those sanctuary cities, you're part of the problem. Illegal is illegal.   No wonder our government is jacked up.


I think next time you should listen to yourself and save your opinions.


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## Viri (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Ugh, right now, my feelings towards most politicians isn't the best, I'm going to bed ><  Damn the government.


Just remember, a politician will lie to you for votes, while Satan is up front, tells the truth and lets you know that he wants your immortal soul.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

blackwrensniper said:


> I think next time you should listen to yourself and save your opinions.



Hate to break it to you, but I'm unable to make that promise, this is a thread and I can share my opinions. Don't tell me you actually defend the concept of sanctuary cities, you know full well the issues and the fact cities are trying to sue politicians because they've been called out on their illegalities.  It's my opinion and not yours, so really, you're more than welcome to add me on ignore. *Shrug*

Illegal is illegal, government officials seemingly never agree on anything, so yeah. Same goes with some of the members on here, like you and I.  C'est la vie.


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## Bladexdsl (Jan 20, 2018)

fuck me and i thought our liberal tax hiking slumlords politicians were BAD! but Trump *Trump's* them all!


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> And why should I? Don't tell me you actually defend the concept of sanctuary cities.  It's my opinion and not yours, so really, you're more than welcome to add me on ignore.


You're god damn right I do, because I'm not afraid of people that want to live in this country instead of where they came from. Stop being so afraid, help people... maybe the world would be a better place if there weren't so many fucking unsympathetic cowards in it. Your "opinion" is that people don't deserve a chance for a better life, which is the exact opposite of the founding principals that *made this country great*.

It's why there is an us vs them schism in this country... One side wants support nets and help for people fundamentally worse off... the other only stands for "I got mine, fuck you" so yeah... long live sanctuary cities because this country was a sanctuary country not so long ago.


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## DaniPoo (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> Everyone that is against Trump is a communist... PERIOD!
> If you cannot stand with your potus , you do not love this country and need to leave and let Trump and the rest of us Americans MAGA!



You sound like a patriotic lunatic, your prisident just acted like a racist asshole and you are sitting here praising him and insulting others who disagree.
So if you actually got a "hitler-guy" who "put people in owens" for president, would you stand with him or leave the country?

You might hate that guy who calls himself president, but you love your hometown and everything else your country has to offer.
plus you have elections, It's not like the president will sit there for very long anyway if he acts like a racist moron.

It's not all black and white.


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## kuwanger (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Also, I do have an opinion on sanctuary cities, and why I think they're stupid and how those who enable such a thing should be punished for violating federal laws, but I'll save that for another time.



Do the believe the same for cannabis?  What are your feelings about those that fight against NSLs or the use of the Section 702 FISA Bill which helps enable things like Five Eyes that circumvent regulations against domestic surveillance?  I ask because I'm curious if your issue is with the lack of observing federal law, the act of fighting against it through legal means, or if it's simply that you dislike sanctuary cities.

Personally, I can understand the position of the cities:  their position is to get as much taxes as possible and do the will of the residents.  Being federal purview to go after illegals, it seems pretty clear that cities really shouldn't be much involved.  In fact, that's rather the whole reason the federal government is upset.  Of course, this whole selective enforcement doesn't really sit right with me, but it seems one of a long list of issues that are being resolved badly because the federal government isn't doing its job. :/


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## invaderyoyo (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Illegal is illegal, government officials seemingly never agree on anything, so yeah. Same goes with some of the members on here, like you and I.  C'est la vie.



We can't just blindly follow laws that are wrong. Have you heard of the Fugitive Slave Act? It comes to my mind when I think about this situation.


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## FAST6191 (Jan 20, 2018)

brickmii82 said:


> It’s ironic though that he spoke at that anti-abortion march or whatever it was, talking about how all kids deserve a chance. Then torpedoes any effort to keep kids healthcare in the interest of ego and pride. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s how I see it.



You are mistaking abortion for childcare, two very different issues and it has long been the way


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## brickmii82 (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Agreed, overall defense spending could be cut by around a third and they'd still have everything they need to operate in the same manner.  Makes it all the more sad that we see Bernie Sanders' ideas as "unrealistic," yet Trump's wall of burning taxpayer money is perfectly reasonable.


I’m not so sure that cutting defense spending would be a great idea. We make up for a lack of manpower against other highly militarized countries with overwhelming tech and firepower. Both China and Russia have more troops to throw in battles than we do. We just go waaaaay over budget on like all of our projects. The F35 was a financial disaster. They ran with the SR71 waaay too long after it became irrelevant. They decommissioned the A10, M1 Abrams are parked at bases for months waiting for parts as are Humvees.... it’s mostly just dumb ass spending choices.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



FAST6191 said:


> You are mistaking abortion for childcare, two very different issues and have it has long been the way



Man, I wish George was still around lol. Touché my friend, well played!


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## FAST6191 (Jan 20, 2018)

Shutdowns do seem like they generate odd effects that might be better considered. I am mostly surprised it took this long to happen though, might have to have a look into the party whip and see what goes there.

On military spending I did see the following the other day which saw some questions arise.

The military enjoys a very odd position in US society compared to the UK which makes me question lots when I hear various lines, however the above provides an interesting perspective. Also while I would like to believe I am cynical enough to realise force projection and similar such things have effects beyond those places with active shooting matches I am inclined to indulge in a bit of "what if NASA and the military swapped budgets", and maybe what might be needed to just do defence (it is basically a large island in the middle of nowhere where land invasion is rather unlikely, even bombing would be hard) + NATO/UN,.

As far as one Mr Carlin then same. I don't know when we will next see his like. There have been some extremely good ones since but nothing that comes close for me.
Might as well have another as it seems more relevant than ever


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

The problem is.. Once they are out of military.. The Vets are pretty much treated like shit. We have to have charities to help take care of them. Should never need a Charity for those that were in the military and did their time. (and I'm relatively anti-military).

Also, if Trump wants to bring up religion so often. Maybe he and the rest of them should read the book. Preaching is.... really not allowed according to Jesus.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

Cylent1 said:


> You are full of yourself!  Hitler put people in ovens....


You should do some research on Hitler's political career before he finally realized the Final Solution. You'll find a lot of interesting and, quite frankly familiar, stuff

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



the_randomizer said:


> Regardless of the political affiliation we're a part of, we can all agree that there are pretty damn idiotic people on both parties, and the White House is in need of a serious purge right about now. Like, as in, they being replaced by people who know what the hell they're doing and actually benefit the people of the US? Days like this I absolutely despise the government.  Oh and I know it hasn't been brought up, but there are some serious issues that need to be addressed, but the government is too uncaring and stupid to even focus on that, they only care to line their pockets with gold, not the people.
> 
> Also, I do have an opinion on sanctuary cities, and why I think they're stupid and how those who enable such a thing should be punished for violating federal laws, but I'll save that for another time.
> 
> "Oh, you want to protect people who entered here illegally by suing the government for violating the rights of the same people who came here illegally, despite the fact that protecting illegals from deportation for their violating the law? Okay".    Damned idiots who run those sanctuary cities, you're part of the problem. Illegal is illegal.   No wonder our government is jacked up.


Illegal may be illegal, but laws that aren't just aren't worth enforcing


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You should do some research on Hitler's political career before he finally realized the Final Solution. You'll find a lot of interesting and, quite frankly familiar, stuff
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



Not to mention I'm sure Randomizer has broken many many laws. Many he probably didn't even know about, but that doesn't mean he didn't do illegal things. After all "Ignorance is not an excuse"

Please not I'm not actually trying to insult Randomizer here... WE ALL break the law.. ALL the time.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



FAST6191 said:


> You are mistaking abortion for childcare, two very different issues and it has long been the way




To mention the Pro-life conservatives... There is nothing in the Bible about Abortions.


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## Spectral Blizzard (Jan 20, 2018)

Well, fuck.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> You should do some research on Hitler's political career before he finally realized the Final Solution. You'll find a lot of interesting and, quite frankly familiar, stuff
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> ...



I don't know what the hell I was trying to say, is it too late to back out before I make an idiot of myself further?  I wouldn't have these thoughts against illegal immigration if the process to allowing them to gain citizenship wasn't so damn convoluted.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I don't know what the hell I was trying to say, is it too late to back out before I make an idiot of myself further?


I don't usually aim to make a fool of anyone, unless they really deserve it. Just take it as a learning experience


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I don't usually aim to make a fool of anyone, unless they really deserve it. Just take it as a learning experience



Well, I think it may be too late on these particular discussion. Illegal immigration is a serious issue in this country, and my opinions on it are strong, and it seems that those opinions aren't welcome on here, so I may as well just hit the bricks and be done with it. I'm sick of people like Jerry Brown, or the may or Chicago, etc acting like the victim and try to fight back by protecting people who broke the law, acting innocent, etc.  What the hell is wrong with wanting the country to fix the broken immigration system and allowing a way for illegal immigrants to find a way to get legal citizenship?  *sigh* But yeah, they're right, I was foolish to think I could express my thoughts on it.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Well, I think it may be too late on these particular discussion. Illegal immigration is a serious issue in this country, and my opinions on it are strong, and it seems that those opinions aren't welcome on here, so I may as well just hit the bricks and be done with it.


Well, why do you feel the way you do about it? I'm curious as to what your views are, because mine obviously are different


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well, why do you feel the way you do about it? I'm curious as to what your views are, because mine obviously are different



Why can't the government focus on the citizens first, and then those who came here illegally second? Why should those who broke the law get more rights than legal citizens? It sure as hell seems like those who are here illegal are getting prioritized more than those who have citizenship. Am I wrong? Fix the broken immigration system, allow them to gain citizenship, don't allow them to vote in elections until they've earned a right to. *sigh*  But I digress, even when I do express my opinions, those who have differing opinions will go out of their way to ridicule me for having the audacity of having a different opinion.  Can't people have different view without feeling like a fool from others? Or is that not allowed?

I express my views, and I'm wrong
I try to be civil and I'm wrong

No matter what my views are, someone will come along and tell me I'm wrong while making me feel like the bad guy. What's the point if someone's just going to go out of their way to ridicule me for having a difference of opinion? It's why I'm so cynical against political discussions.



invaderyoyo said:


> We can't just blindly follow laws that are wrong. Have you heard of the Fugitive Slave Act? It comes to my mind when I think about this situation.



Oh, so then what? Let cities do whatever the hell they want, without regards of those who are legal residents and give illegal immigrants more rights and privileges than those who are legally there? That hardly seems fair. I'm sorry, but those who are running the sanctuaries and trying to sue are just in it for the money, they don't care about the immigrants, they just care about numbers. This is precisely why I'm cynical towards politics.

People ask for an opinion and I give it, I don't care if it's wrong, but I very much care if people go out of their way to ridicule me for said opinion. So, maybe if people learned to accept differences of opinion without trying to make the other feel like shit, maybe I'd be happy to express my opinions more often, yes?


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Why can't the government focus on the citizens first, and then those who came here illegally second? Why should those who broke the law get more rights than legal citizens? It sure as hell seems like those who are here illegal are getting prioritized more than those who have citizenship. Am I wrong? Fix the broken immigration system, allow them to gain citizenship, don't allow them to vote in elections until they've earned a right to. *sigh*  But I digress, even when I do express my opinions, those who have differing opinions will go out of their way to ridicule me for having the audacity of having a different opinion.  Can't people have different view without feeling like a fool from others? Or is that not allowed?
> 
> I express my views, and I'm wrong
> I try to be civil and I'm wrong
> ...



I actually -somewhat- agree with you. I do agree that Citizens should be taken care of, but most of the cities you are talking about, honestly would be HURT by losing the undocumented, which would hurt -everyone-. But I also agree that citizenship should be easier to get. And if someone is willing to be in the US Military... They should get Citizenship. 

Also a problem with the Deamers.. They where brought here when they where kids and had no choice in the matter. How would you like it if you where taken from everything you know and told "Tough shit.. your going here now!" As someone who actually lived that numerous times as a Military brat.... It's not -ever- a good thing.


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## Deleted User (Jan 20, 2018)

How do people get through this? I mean, they have to use their savings to pay their bills right!? What if they can´t afford to pay for medication or Health treatment?


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

Dodain47 said:


> How do people get through this? I mean, they have to use their savings to pay their bills right!? What if they can´t afford to pay for medication or Health treatment?



No difference. No one can really afford Medication or Health Treatments. Why do you think people will die from the flu instead of going to the hospital, or breaking a leg can actually cause people to lose their house.

So really.. No difference. x.x;


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> I actually -somewhat- agree with you. I do agree that Citizens should be taken care of, but most of the cities you are talking about, honestly would be HURT by losing the undocumented, which would hurt -everyone-. But I also agree that citizenship should be easier to get. And if someone is willing to be in the US Military... They should get Citizenship.
> 
> Also a problem with the Deamers.. They where brought here when they where kids and had no choice in the matter. How would you like it if you where taken from everything you know and told "Tough shit.. your going here now!" As someone who actually lived that numerous times as a Military brat.... It's not -ever- a good thing.



The children, yes, they shouldn't have to suffer, but their parents, they should've thought this through and whatever happens falls on the heads of their parents. Immigration is broken, but can we please stop acting like they have higher priority or are somehow more important than other people? That'd be a good start.  The children are victims, but their parents sure as hell aren't.



Dodain47 said:


> How do people get through this? I mean, they have to use their savings to pay their bills right!? What if they can´t afford to pay for medication or Health treatment?



People really can't afford decent health thanks to a broken healthcare system that tried to fix everything when it made it worse.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> The children, yes, they shouldn't have to suffer, but their parents, they should've thought this through and whatever happens falls on the heads of their parents. Immigration is broken, but can we please stop acting like they have higher priority or are somehow more important than other people? That'd be a good start.  The children are victims, but their parents sure as hell aren't.
> 
> 
> 
> People really can't afford decent health thanks to a broken healthcare system that tried to fix everything when it made it worse.



But who is actually saying they have higher priority? Right now they are being abused and US rights *not citizen rights.. but rights granted for JUST being in the US* violated. Do they deserve life saving treatments to be ignored? The truth is.. The people in charge of the House and Senate right now.. Don't want US to have any power. Not that the illegals are getting better treatment. They don't want -anyone- who is not a white christian straight male.. To have -any- power at all.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> But who is actually saying they have higher priority? Right now they are being abused and US rights *not citizen rights.. but rights granted for JUST being in the US*. Do they deserve life saving treatments to be ignored? The truth is.. The people in charge of the House and Senate right now.. Don't want US to have any power. Not that the illegals are getting better treatment. They don't want -anyone- who is not a white christian straight male.. To have -any- power at all.



Well, take the sanctuary cities, mayors, etc are breaking the law by protecting them, the adults, from deportation. Why can't they just fix the stupid system and allow them to gain citizenship with a more streamline process? Oh, I know, because the Dems and Republicans can never agree on a bloody thing, so that's never gonna happen. Immigrants' children shouldn't suffer, no, but their irresponsible adults should face consequences for illegally entering.  And before someone says that the country was founded on "illegal" immigration, how can it be the case when there were no immigration laws to break in the 17th century?


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Well, take the sanctuary cities, mayors, etc are breaking the law by protecting them, the adults, from deportation. Why can't they just fix the stupid system and allow them to gain citizenship with a more streamline process? Oh, I know, because the Dems and Republicans can never agree on a bloody thing, so that's never gonna happen. Immigrants' children shouldn't suffer, no, but their irresponsible adults should face consequences for illegally entering.  And before someone says that the country was founded on "illegal" immigration, how can it be the case when there were no immigration laws to break in the 17th century?



That's fine.. But. I agree with you that change is necessary. But let me ask you this, as someone else did. Do you think there should be no medical marijuana simply because Nixon wanted to put black people and protesters behind bars? Or what about SB 1070 which is gives police officers of the state of Arizona the right to detain any individual who has either a non-white skin tone or an accent, and force them to prove their citizenship. Or even Trumps attempt at banning people who have valid visa's to the US.

We have laws in place, yes.. but that doesn't mean they -should- be in place. "All citizens must own a rake." yes... this is a real law in georgia.. Do you honestly think everyone who doesn't should be punished?

Please note I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I just want to give you something to think about as I hope you give me something to think about.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> That's fine.. But. I agree with you that change is necessary. But let me ask you this, as someone else did. Do you think there should be no medical marijuana simply because Nixon wanted to put black people and protesters behind bars? Or what about SB 1070 which is gives police officers of the state of Arizona the right to detain any individual who has either a non-white skin tone or an accent, and force them to prove their citizenship. Or even Trumps attempt at banning people who have valid visa's to the US.
> 
> We have laws in place, yes.. but that doesn't mean they -should- be in place. "All citizens must own a rake." yes... this is a real law in georgia.. Do you honestly think everyone who doesn't should be punished?
> 
> Please note I'm not trying to insult you or anything, I just want to give you something to think about as I hope you give me something to think about.



I'd rather not voice my opinion on marijuana, but I will say I've a huge bias against any kind of drug, gateway drug, medicinal or otherwise, because there are people who would find an excuse to abuse it more than people who use it for legit purposes. I have an older sister who royally f*cked up her life because of bad choices she made, drug abuse, she has tried every drug in existence, and still smokes weed on top of it all. She has poor mental and physical health, she's been arrested for illegal drug possession. To sum up, I couldn't give two shits about marijuana, even if it's decriminalized, taxed, etc. I never want to even be near it or even want to support it. I'm sorry, but drugs have indirectly affected me because of what I've seen my sister go through and abuse. Make with it what you will.  I just wish the mayors of these sanctuary cities weren't so damned belligerent and hellbent on prioritizing illegals' priorities and safety over their legal citizens. Is that too much to ask? Immigration is broken, drug regulation is broken, the entire system is FUBAR. I don't even know what to believe anymore.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I'd rather not voice my opinion on marijuana, but I will say I've a huge bias against any kind of drug, gateway drug, medicinal or otherwise, because there are people who would find an excuse to abuse it more than people who use it for legit purposes. I have an older sister who royally f*cked up her life because of bad choices she made, drug abuse, she has tried every drug in existence, and still smokes weed on top of it all. She has poor mental and physical health, she's been arrested for illegal drug possession. To sum up, I couldn't give two shits about marijuana, even if it's decriminalized, taxed, etc. I never want to even be near it or even want to support it. I'm sorry, but drugs have indirectly affected me because of what I've seen my sister go through and abuse. Make with it what you will.  I just wish the mayors of these sanctuary cities weren't so damned belligerent and hellbent on prioritizing illegals' priorities and safety over their legal citizens. Is that too much to ask? Immigration is broken, drug regulation is broken, the entire system is FUBAR. I don't even know what to believe anymore.



But you keep saying they are putting priority of the illegals over the citizens. But my question is HOW are they doing that?


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> But you keep saying they are putting priority of the illegals over the citizens. But my question is HOW are they doing that?



IDFK anymore. I really don't.  But they should stop giving them power to vote as well, if they're not legally here, they don't have any right to vote in any elections IMO. That's just stupid. Deport the illegal adults and give amnesty to their children to pave the way for legal citizenship.  If people are going to hate me for saying that, fine. I've lost plenty of friends last year over my opinions, what's one more?   This is why I'm hesitant to share opinions, there are people who I think to be friends, who end up hating my guts afterwards. At least that's how I feel


----------



## Deleted User (Jan 20, 2018)

Everytime I hear the government is shutting down, it sounds pretty scary but nothing seems to happen. Somebody explain to me why this is different?


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> IDFK anymore. I really don't.  But they should stop giving them power to vote as well, if they're not legally here, they don't have any right to vote in any elections IMO. That's just stupid. Deport the illegal adults and give amnesty to their children to pave the way for legal citizenship.  If people are going to hate me for saying that, fine. I've lost plenty of friends last year over my opinions, what's one more?   This is why I'm hesitant to share opinions, there are people who I think to be friends, who end up hating my guts afterwards. At least that's how I feel



Actually even though we have not been agreeing on everything, I respect you because you've been calm and actually explaining your position. 

As for the immigrants voting. I don't believe it's true at all. That would be voter fraud *not that there isn't a lot to damage the voting system as every citizen is by right allowed to vote and laws get passed to stop that all the time.* 

And we have prove that voter fraud is -so- small that it's almost zero.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Actually even though we have not been agreeing on everything, I respect you because you've been calm and actually explaining your position.
> 
> As for the immigrants voting. I don't believe it's true at all. That would be voter fraud *not that there isn't a lot to damage the voting system as every citizen is by right allowed to vote and laws get passed to stop that all the time.*
> 
> And we have prove that voter fraud is -so- small that it's almost zero.



I appreciate the civility as well, but with that being said, I've been feeling off this morning and may take a break from this thread for a few hours.  Just been feeling really off for some reason. I fear that people I call friends on here may look down at me, IDK how, guess that's just one of my issues with social anxiety.


----------



## RustInPeace (Jan 20, 2018)

Save us Oprah 2020.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

RustInPeace said:


> Save us Oprah 2020.



How about no? We don't need another celebrity being in charge.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

VinLark said:


> Everytime I hear the government is shutting down, it sounds pretty scary but nothing seems to happen. Somebody explain to me why this is different?


Essentially a lot of government employees get furloughed, it's on a department-by-department basis.  We all get fucked if the shutdown lasts long enough, but here's a breakdown of what gets affected soonest:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/18/what-happens-during-a-us-government-shutdown.html


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I appreciate the civility as well, but with that being said, I've been feeling off this morning and may take a break from this thread for a few hours.  Just been feeling really off for some reason. I fear that people I call friends on here may look down at me, IDK how, guess that's just one of my issues with social anxiety.



I hope you get to feeling better. And if the Republicans and Democrats could have discussions like we where having, the whole country would be better. While we disagree on some things, we agree on others, and at least that's a start.


----------



## RustInPeace (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> How about no? We don't need another celebrity being in charge.



How about take a joke better?


----------



## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> I hope you get to feeling better. And if the Republicans and Democrats could have discussions like we where having, the whole country would be better. While we disagree on some things, we agree on others, and at least that's a start.



And that's just it, neither party can agree on anything, it's nothing but backbiting and blaming ad infinitum, as a result, nothing ever gets done. It's infuriating and seriously makes me fear for the future of this country *sigh*.



RustInPeace said:


> How about take a joke better?



Well *sorry*


----------



## Vahnyyz (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Wanna give us an in-depth explanation on why you think our immigration system is so bad?


I would love to give you an in-depth explanation, but seeing as it really wouldn't matter one way or the other if you're still questioning it now i'll say this. 

I'm first generation American, meaning I was born and raised here by parents who came to this country illegally and once they got their green card because of this little "bundle of joy" they worked hard to A) Get a HS Diploma here in the US by doing equivalency tests and learning english B) quickly getting their Citizenship which took 2 years time in total because of money and what not, and finally but not the least of which C) Getting and maintaining jobs both with the state and the federal government. My family is from Colombia, so we're not from a sh*t-poor country like mexico and we have (had) a legitimate education system as well in my parent's country. They were illegal immigrants that within 2 years got their affairs in order and became American Citizens NOT because Colombia isn't their home, and NOT because they wanted to forget their past but because when you come into another person's house, you behave accordingly.

Fast forward a few years my uncles come in, and as I mentioned before we're Colombian, so they get a visa and things to visit family and they try to get ahead here too. A) They made friends with local cartels and made some quick cash by bringing things here B) they didn't care about the laws here and said "No I'm not American I'm Colombian and I shouldn't have to change because I'm proud of who I am" basically calling my Father an "Uncle Tom" even though they're happy to take his money when they need help C) They get deported because of their stupidities and still whine about how unfair it was that they aren't allowed in the country because all they did was sell some drugs and stuff.

That's just using 2 small examples. I grew up in NJ where my family's story isn't even close to estranged. The Daca/Dreamer bull doesn't deal with Scenario 1 immigrants it deals with Scenario 2. Becoming a Citizen has been SUPER Streamlined since the 80s when my parents did it and it has also become QUITE a bit cheaper, but somehow that's "too hard" for illegals to do these days. Because cell phones, Computers, and "pride" seem to be getting in their way I guess, maybe if they all collectively pulled their heads out of their butts they could possibly be more than just a blight to society and the world as a whole.

TL~DR
POS Roaches and immigrants need to be stamped out and kicked out. If you want to be part of the solution of what the REAL American dream is (Make it here, and make it everywhere via hard work) then more power to you. Sadly more people care about them as "people" when they're really 2nd class leeches.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> That's just using 2 small examples. I grew up in NJ where my family's story isn't even close to estranged. The Daca/Dreamer bull doesn't deal with Scenario 1 immigrants it deals with Scenario 2. Becoming a Citizen has been SUPER Streamlined since the 80s when my parents did it and it has also become QUITE a bit cheaper, but somehow that's "too hard" for illegals to do these days. Because cell phones, Computers, and "pride" seem to be getting in their way I guess, maybe if they all collectively pulled their heads out of their butts they could possibly be more than just a blight to society and the world as a whole.


AFAIK there's no path to citizenship now, I'm not sure about the 80s.  If there was a way for DREAMERS to become citizens, they would've done so a long time ago.  They've been stuck in legislative limbo instead, and unless something is included in the budget for them, they're being deported beginning in March despite the fact that they're law-abiding citizens who contribute to the economy like anyone else.

Your whole argument reeks of "got mine Jack, don't care about anyone else now."  Yes, immigrants who commit crimes should be deported, but equally immigrants who contribute to society should be rewarded.  You don't build loyalty with only a stick and no carrot.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> AFAIK there's no path to citizenship now, I'm not sure about the 80s.  If there was a way for DREAMERS to become citizens, they would've done so a long time ago.  They've been stuck in legislative limbo instead, and unless something is included in the budget for them, they're being deported beginning in March despite the fact that they're law-abiding citizens who contribute to the economy like anyone else.



Interestingly.. The 14th amendment actually points out this can't happen: A primary motivation for this clause was to validate the equality provisions contained in the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which guaranteed that all people would have rights equal to those of all citizens.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

VinLark said:


> Everytime I hear the government is shutting down, it sounds pretty scary but nothing seems to happen. Somebody explain to me why this is different?



Well theoreticaly thousands to possibly a millon *that may be a gross overestimate, thats why I put thousand up in there* are goverment workers are required to continue to work without pay, and will not receive back pay.

This could affect healthcare because hospitals won't get any federal funding. It's dangerous to the president because Secrete service can't be paid. And we all know people don't do as good of a job when they are not paid. Other social programs such as road work and even something as Utilites could be vastly affected. And even food as most food is subsidized by the goverment. 

So this could actually lead into numerous problems that most people will not be able to handle. Also I expect the stock market to take a hit as well, though I don't know about that.


----------



## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Interestingly.. The 14th amendment actually points out this can't happen: A primary motivation for this clause was to validate the equality provisions contained in the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which guaranteed that all people would have rights equal to those of all citizens.



Well that's a dumb oversight.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Well that's a dumb oversight.



It may be indeed. I'm not saying one way or another. But that means a lot of what is being done to the undocumented immigrants simply illegal.


----------



## invaderyoyo (Jan 20, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> Becoming a Citizen has been SUPER Streamlined since the 80s when my parents did it and it has also become QUITE a bit cheaper, but somehow that's "too hard" for illegals to do these days.


What are you talking about, dude? It absolutely has not been "SUPER streamlined". In fact, it's almost impossible for poor people without immediate family in the US.

It's summarized in this pic.


Spoiler


----------



## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> It may be indeed. I'm not saying one way or another. But that means a lot of what is being done to the undocumented immigrants simply illegal.



Something being law and moral don't always go hand in hand, either.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> Something being law and moral don't always go hand in hand, either.



I can agree with that. Unfortunately moral is a very subjective term.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> I can agree with that. Unfortunately moral is a very subjective term.



I know, I just hate the direction our government's been going the past several years.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I know, I just hate the direction our government's been going the past several years.



That's another thing we can agree on.  We may however disagree with which way it's going. LOL


----------



## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> That's another thing we can agree on.  We may however disagree with which way it's going. LOL



I just want to curl up in a ball, closing my eyes and plugging my ears and wished for it to just be done.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I just want to curl up in a ball, closing my eyes and plugging my ears and wished for it to just be done.



While I agree to some extent.. Doing that has gotten us where we are.


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## the_randomizer (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> While I agree to some extent.. Doing that has gotten us where we are.



What do you mean? I just admitted to having a negative attitude about the government.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> What do you mean? I just admitted to having a negative attitude about the government.



I mean that most people just closed their eyes and hid, thus we've gotten to this point in many ways. I understand your feelings, but the only way to fix the goverment is to fight against it. 

It may be "Voting for the less evil." But everytime we vote for the "Lesser evil.. eventually our options are not evil." Though the shutdown is going to be problematic. 

Please, I understand you're dislike of the goverment, I dislike a whole lot of what they do, but every once in a while they do do good things.


----------



## Navonod (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Interestingly.. The 14th amendment actually points out this can't happen: A primary motivation for this clause was to validate the equality provisions contained in the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which guaranteed that all people would have rights equal to those of all citizens.


This was for slaves who were already here in America. When they got their freedom, they would also get full legal citizenship and rights. Alot of people misinterpret this. It wasn't intended for illegals to come over and have anchor babies. Those people should technically be illegal until they go through the right steps to become a citizen.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> This was for slaves who were already here in America. When they got their freedom, they would also get full legal citizenship and rights. Alot of people misinterpret this. It wasn't intended for illegals to come over and have anchor babies. Those people should technically be illegal until they go through the right steps to become a citizen.



That may indeed be true, but the entire legal system in the US is based on technicalities.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> This was for slaves who were already here in America. When they got their freedom, they would also get full legal citizenship and rights. Alot of people misinterpret this. It wasn't intended for illegals to come over and have anchor babies. Those people should technically be illegal until they go through the right steps to become a citizen.


Doesn't matter what the intentions were, it still applies as it's in our Constitution. Until a constitutional convention happens and the 14th amendment is revised (which it likely won't be), that's the law that our elected officials swear to uphold


----------



## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> This was for slaves who were already here in America. When they got their freedom, they would also get full legal citizenship and rights. Alot of people misinterpret this. It wasn't intended for illegals to come over and have anchor babies. Those people should technically be illegal until they go through the right steps to become a citizen.


The parents remain illegal even if they've had children in the US, but the children are citizens.  Again, the bigger issue is that there are no "right steps" to become a citizen.  There is no way for an illegal to become a citizen even if they've been here 40-50 years, and that's problematic.  The system is broken more than the people in the system are.


----------



## Navonod (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The parents remain illegal even if they've had children in the US, but the children are citizens.  Again, the bigger issue is that there are no "right steps" to become a citizen.  There is no way for an illegal to become a citizen even if they've been here 40-50 years, and that's problematic.  The system is broken more than the people in the system are.


I know all that. I was just pointing out what the intentions were for the civil rights act. I'm not stupid. Lol

Edit: There are right steps and it's through the government. A guy I worked for had to go through tons of paperwork and waited 7 years to become a US citizen. The process is to damn long. I do think they should shorten it maybe one year or a few months because that's ridiculous. But he did it the right way.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



TotalInsanity4 said:


> Doesn't matter what the intentions were, it still applies as it's in our Constitution. Until a constitutional convention happens and the 14th amendment is revised (which it likely won't be), that's the law that our elected officials swear to uphold


Something needs to happen. It needs to be universally understood with out any loopholes.


----------



## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

DrGreed said:


> I know all that. I was just pointing out what the intentions were for the civil rights act. I'm not stupid. Lol
> 
> Edit: There are right steps and it's through the government. A guy I worked for had to go through tons of paperwork and waited 7 years to become a US citizen. The process is to damn long. I do think they should shorten it maybe one year or a few months because that's ridiculous. But he did it the right way.
> 
> ...



I know it would make "Second class citizens" which I don't really agree with. But honestly our immigration policy should be.. they come through a gate. A background check is done. If they are clean, (for the most part.. Minor misdemeanors would be case by case) they get allowed. They go work on farms *which have to provide food and shelter* and maybe get the wage they would get anyways. After two/three years without a serious criminal record, they become full citizens no question asked.


----------



## Vahnyyz (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> AFAIK there's no path to citizenship now, I'm not sure about the 80s.  If there was a way for DREAMERS to become citizens, they would've done so a long time ago.  They've been stuck in legislative limbo instead, and unless something is included in the budget for them, they're being deported beginning in March despite the fact that they're law-abiding citizens who contribute to the economy like anyone else.
> 
> Your whole argument reeks of "got mine Jack, don't care about anyone else now."  Yes, immigrants who commit crimes should be deported, but equally immigrants who contribute to society should be rewarded.  You don't build loyalty with only a stick and no carrot.


well that's quite interesting actually, because just last year I helped my mother in law become a US citizen for less than 2k (quite a bit less) and it was very similar in process to how my parents did it. And I should mention my mother in law doesn't speak almost ANY english, she works at Marriot hotels as a maid and she became a US citizen VERY HAPPILY I might add after living in the US for 20+ years. She was very much like you in that she thought "no, I can't become a US citizen I can only be a legal resident". Just because "as far as you know" there isn't a way doesn't mean there isn't one. I'll have you know she did it in California 2017. Very much the place that tries to harbor and what not these illegals all the time. She's from El Salvador, almost NO school education because she had to drop out and take care of her family she came to the states with my father-in-law and he got his citizenship back in the 80s. Sure, maybe having a family member that's american makes things easier. I won't lie I never considered it because A) It's a question that's asked and the people I know have said no when they're not a part of my family B) if we considered the USA a home instead of a country and in this critical thinking exercise we're going to say its YOUR home. Do you want someone who is going to expect you to pay THEIR rent, THEIR food, THEIR clothing, THEIR electricity usage and are you supposed to be happy about for the rest of your life when you have mouths to feed not just your own. Or is it possible that you'd want that person to contribute when you say "yes, of course you're in need, let me help you. we can WORK TOGETHER and be family/friends/whatever BS title and make this work".

I totally get that you guys want to say "oh we're being mean (boohoo) that makes me sad" but at the end of the day, we're not talking about Bill Gate type immigrants that are being kicked out, we're talking about that one friend that's always borrowing money and says "yeah i'll pay you back" and then when they get paid they go and buy themselves a PS4 or an Xbox, but the moment you come up to them and say "hey buddy can I please have my 5 dollars back" they pretty much shun you and say "you said you were my friend, you said you were a good person" and make themselves the martyr and you the executioner by extension.


----------



## HamBone41801 (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> Don't get too worried. Unless someone in your family works for the federal government or so you probably won't feel the effects of it. Not unless it drags on a long time.


so when it shuts down, no one in the government or military is paid?


----------



## Navonod (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> I know it would make "Second class citizens" which I don't really agree with. But honestly our immigration policy should be.. they come through a gate. A background check is done. If they are clean, (for the most part.. Minor misdemeanors would be case by case) they get allowed. They go work on farms *which have to provide food and shelter* and maybe get the wage they would get anyways. After two/three years without a serious criminal record, they become full citizens no question asked.


I can't agree with that process personally. But yes I do agree it should be a bit easier.


----------



## HamBone41801 (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> I know it would make "Second class citizens" which I don't really agree with. But honestly our immigration policy should be.. they come through a gate. A background check is done. If they are clean, (for the most part.. Minor misdemeanors would be case by case) they get allowed. They go work on farms *which have to provide food and shelter* and maybe get the wage they would get anyways. After two/three years without a serious criminal record, they become full citizens no question asked.


that is a terrible idea.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 20, 2018)

HamBone41801 said:


> that is a terrible idea.


Why though? There are countries with less stringent citizenship laws


----------



## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

HamBone41801 said:


> so when it shuts down, no one in the government or military is paid?


It varies from place to place, employee to employee. Last time this happened everyone got paid eventually i think. But that doesn't mean it'll happen this time.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> It varies from place to place, employee to employee. Last time this happened everyone got paid eventually i think. But that doesn't mean it'll happen this time.



Well last time it only lasted a day. If that happens this time, probably the same, but if it goes on longer... may be a much bigger issue.


----------



## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

Tigran said:


> Well last time it only lasted a day. If that happens this time, probably the same, but if it goes on longer... may be a much bigger issue.


Last time was 16 days.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> Last time was 16 days.



It was? My mistake. My memory isn't the best anymore. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## HamBone41801 (Jan 20, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Why though? There are countries with less stringent citizenship laws


because nothing good will ever come from creating second class citizens.


----------



## dimmidice (Jan 20, 2018)

HamBone41801 said:


> because nothing good will ever come from creating second class citizens.


Yup, it's a slippery slope to slavery tbh. First it's 3 years until  they get citizenship. Then that gets lengthened to 4, then 5. Then it's you get a parking ticket it's another year etc etc. Worst case scenario of course.


----------



## HamBone41801 (Jan 20, 2018)

dimmidice said:


> Yup, it's a slippery slope to slavery tbh. First it's 3 years until  they get citizenship. Then that gets lengthened to 4, then 5. Then it's you get a parking ticket it's another year etc etc. Worst case scenario of course.


and then there are the "Real citizens only" signs on bathrooms and businesses.


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## Tigran (Jan 20, 2018)

HamBone41801 said:


> and then there are the "Real citizens only" signs on bathrooms and businesses.



Yeah, I know it would need serious -serious- work to stop a second class citizen ship. I just think a way to let them in easily and documented so that if something happened, *and that could mean a LOT of things, not just criminal offenses* they could be found.


----------



## hobbledehoy899 (Jan 20, 2018)

Thanks Chuck, you fucking cuck!


----------



## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> I totally get that you guys want to say "oh we're being mean (boohoo) that makes me sad" but at the end of the day, we're not talking about Bill Gate type immigrants that are being kicked out, we're talking about that one friend that's always borrowing money and says "yeah i'll pay you back" and then when they get paid they go and buy themselves a PS4 or an Xbox, but the moment you come up to them and say "hey buddy can I please have my 5 dollars back" they pretty much shun you and say "you said you were my friend, you said you were a good person" and make themselves the martyr and you the executioner by extension.


The issue is not that black and white, it's not only mooches and criminals that get deported.  If the process was that thorough and people who do contribute were being left alone, there wouldn't need to be any changes to the system.  Obviously that's not the case, though.

A bit more on-topic: Schumer says negotiating with Trump is like "negotiating with Jell-O."  They had a deal to extend funding for four to five days while further negotiations were discussed, higher military spending and even the border wall were on the table.  Then Trump rejected that deal a few hours later.  So it is as bad as we feared:

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/369929-schumer-working-with-trump-like-negotiating-with-jello


----------



## Vahnyyz (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The issue is not that black and white, it's not only mooches and criminals that get deported.  If the process was that thorough and people who do contribute were being left alone, there wouldn't need to be any changes to the system.  Obviously that's not the case, though.



you're right, but again it's YOUR house, so what do you do? do you throw the dice and accept whatever happens to your kids, the consequences be damned? With regards to deportation the current system isn't "Banning" anyone (unless they are officially like axe murderes and unibombers and stuff like that) from coming into the country. But when you have a problem in your house you clean it up and fix it. I am not condoning my next comment but think of this as an "alternative"; gun to YOUR head, would you want uncle sam to say "become a good citizen or else" and he already has the gun cocked with his finger already pressing on the trigger? I don't want that for you or anyone else. Sometimes the good has to go with the bad, the whey with the chaff and that's OK!! Figurative or literal the "wall" is to slow things down and give us a chance to vet the people coming in. We're not only looking to make citizens the next bill gate. I love my Mother in law (because I have to) but she's no Bill Gates. She literally went through 3rd grade schooling and has difficulties reading even Spanish BUT to become an American Citizen she sat down with me and her daughters and wanted to learn. THESE are the people we want to come into our country. The ones that will STRIVE to become better than where they came from. We're not all milk and honey in the US, but at least here if you work hard you can play hard too.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> you're right, but again it's YOUR house, so what do you do? do you throw the dice and accept whatever happens to your kids, the consequences be damned? With regards to deportation the current system isn't "Banning" anyone (unless they are officially like axe murderes and unibombers and stuff like that) from coming into the country. But when you have a problem in your house you clean it up and fix it. I am not condoning my next comment but think of this as an "alternative"; gun to YOUR head, would you want uncle sam to say "become a good citizen or else" and he already has the gun cocked with his finger already pressing on the trigger? I don't want that for you or anyone else. Sometimes the good has to go with the bad, the whey with the chaff and that's OK!! Figurative or literal the "wall" is to slow things down and give us a chance to vet the people coming in. We're not only looking to make citizens the next bill gate. I love my Mother in law (because I have to) but she's no Bill Gates. She literally went through 3rd grade schooling and has difficulties reading even Spanish BUT to become an American Citizen she sat down with me and her daughters and wanted to learn. THESE are the people we want to come into our country. The ones that will STRIVE to become better than where they came from. We're not all milk and honey in the US, but at least here if you work hard you can play hard too.


At least I can agree with some of this.  I don't mind a bit more funding for border security, but a physical wall is long past outdated and a waste of taxpayer money.  It would be crumbling within years anyway, and passing funding to keep it maintained would be even more difficult than getting the funding to build it in the first place.

Vetting for people coming from overseas is already very thorough and a very long process.  That doesn't need to be changed, but the path to citizenship does, even more so for those that enter the country legally.


----------



## Vahnyyz (Jan 20, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The issue is not that black and white, it's not only mooches and criminals that get deported.  If the process was that thorough and people who do contribute were being left alone, there wouldn't need to be any changes to the system.  Obviously that's not the case, though.
> 
> A bit more on-topic: Schumer says negotiating with Trump is like "negotiating with Jell-O."  They had a deal to extend funding for four to five days while further negotiations were discussed, higher military spending and even the border wall were on the table.  Then Trump rejected that deal a few hours later.  So it is as bad as we feared:
> 
> http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/369929-schumer-working-with-trump-like-negotiating-with-jello




Now i'd like to respond to your edit, Trump is OUR president (that's assuming you're american) and whether we LIKE IT OR NOT he is going to be our president. That's the short and the end of it. We don't have to like it, we don't have to "believe" it because it's fact. Personally the guy is full of foolishness, and much like most of his other businesses (that are doing well) they are "set it and forget it" for him. He talks about "his" successes because it has his name on it, but it's much like a child filling in a color by numbers. Yeah they followed the color rules and did exactly what they were told to do, but that doesn't make them the next Van Gogh. (sp?) I'm glad he's the president because he's got some things that I'm looking forward to and at this point we do have a really nice upcurve on the economy side. As far as war with Russia and North Korea I am worried, but if we have to be PC just so people "like us" I'd rather be the stick than the carrot, because you like the carrot but you respect the stick one way or the other.


----------



## Xzi (Jan 20, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> Now i'd like to respond to your edit, Trump is OUR president (that's assuming you're american) and whether we LIKE IT OR NOT he is going to be our president. That's the short and the end of it. We don't have to like it, we don't have to "believe" it because it's fact. Personally the guy is full of foolishness, and much like most of his other businesses (that are doing well) they are "set it and forget it" for him. He talks about "his" successes because it has his name on it, but it's much like a child filling in a color by numbers. Yeah they followed the color rules and did exactly what they were told to do, but that doesn't make them the next Van Gogh. (sp?) I'm glad he's the president because he's got some things that I'm looking forward to and at this point we do have a really nice upcurve on the economy side. As far as war with Russia and North Korea I am worried, but if we have to be PC just so people "like us" I'd rather be the stick than the carrot, because you like the carrot but you respect the stick one way or the other.


Well, I'm not arguing about the fact that he is president here, I'm just pointing out how bad a job he's doing when it comes to the duties of president.  Which is not surprising, of course, Trump comes from the world of real estate and reality TV, neither of which prepared him to govern or legislate.  For all his bluster about what a great "deal maker" he is, Trump can't even seem to remember or stick to a deal he made three hours prior.

Government is currently shut down, and while the president typically takes the bulk of the blame for that, this time it's appropriate because this is mostly his fault.


----------



## kuwanger (Jan 21, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> if we considered the USA a home instead of a country and in this critical thinking exercise we're going to say its YOUR home. Do you want someone who is going to expect you to pay THEIR rent, THEIR food, THEIR clothing, THEIR electricity usage and are you supposed to be happy about for the rest of your life when you have mouths to feed not just your own



The problem is, that's a horrible analogy.  One, the US isn't a home.  Two, even if it were a home, it's not "my" home.  It's "our" home.  Three, even if it were my home, it's not the equivalent of paying for their rent, food, clothing, etc.  So, if you're willing to ignore all that, yes, your analogy works.



Vahnyyz said:


> but at the end of the day, we're not talking about Bill Gate type immigrants that are being kicked out



Bill Gates after he has money, right?  I wonder how he got so much money.  Could be because he (1) lived in America, (2) had enough connections to be in the right place to make billions, and (3) lacked the ethics to engage in responsible business practices instead of anti-competitive ones?  Funny thing is, we'd have to reject Bill Gates as a citizen because he has a criminal record.



Vahnyyz said:


> we're talking about that one friend that's always borrowing money and says "yeah i'll pay you back" and then when they get paid they go and buy themselves a PS4 or an Xbox, but the moment you come up to them and say "hey buddy can I please have my 5 dollars back" they pretty much shun you and say "you said you were my friend, you said you were a good person" and make themselves the martyr and you the executioner by extension.



Dude, you really need better friends.  I don't have friends like that.  If i did, yes, I'd stop being their friend.

The real problem I have for most immigration debates is how people are so quick to claim that immigrants specifically do bad things, ignoring the 1 million+ Americans in jail.  Or how we should focus on merit based immigration, ignoring that we're constantly told how incompetent the government is and hence would be at it.  Meanwhile, we don't merit based most things for Americans because we realize merit is its own reward.  The point of government programs is to help those who are without merit in some fashion--because being poor is one of the worst offense.

So, yea, that's my take on it.  I won the birth lottery and was born American.  Being American is in high demand, so we have to artificially keep the supply low.  Immigration is one of those choke points.  Let's just ignore the looming negative population growth.  Maybe we can justify it with the threat of automation and the fear of them "taking our jobs", but immigration is but a blip if automation in the service sector ends up doing what it's done to the manufacturing and agricultural sectors as far as jobs.

*shrug*  I guess my strongest feeling is, we're all people.  Letting governments divide us or choosing to divide ourselves from each other is self-destructive.  It's why the internet is so wonderful.  It's why people choosing their own echo chamber on the internet or otherwise is terrible.

@the_randomizer - I'm sorry to hear that you've lost friends over expressing your opinions and beliefs.  At the same time, I'm sort of glad because those are the kind of friends who will abandon you as it suits them, anyways.  Personally, I'm very disinclined to abandon a friend just because I disagree with them--maybe "humans are tasty"--, and I hope that the friendships you keep are the ones that last.  Those are the rewarding ones, anyways.


----------



## Vahnyyz (Jan 21, 2018)

kuwanger said:


> The problem is, that's a horrible analogy.  One, the US isn't a home.  Two, even if it were a home, it's not "my" home.  It's "our" home.  Three, even if it were my home, it's not the equivalent of paying for their rent, food, clothing, etc.  So, if you're willing to ignore all that, yes, your analogy works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



actually no, by itself my analogy works perfectly because this is MY home with MY family, we're americans here and we grow and work here to make this our country. If you ignore the basic necessities of things you have to work for to continue to make everything function the way that it should then you'd live in a utopia where computers and robots walk and eat for you and you just get to veg out and be a leech because it wouldn't matter what you do or how you do it.

with respect to the Bill Gates reference; No I meant his ingenuity, his work ethic, his want for people to succeed. He saw a system that worked really well and made his own personal switch to it with Windows. I'm talking about the obvious and direct correlations between the original Mac PCs and his. As far as his "connections" he worked on his business and reached out to make those connections it's not like just because you work hard you automatically get Warren Buffet's personal cellphone and the assumption of something like that happening is simply asinine. With regards to his "ethics" I refer you back to my original "ingenuity" claim. Just because you don't like that he did something a certain way doesn't mean you can bit** about it, that would just make you petty and small which is obviously not what we're trying to prove here.

Finally your bullsh** argument that "we're all people" is stupid. Why would anyone have to accept you just because you're you? You think just because you're breathing and taking up space you automatically deserve respect? honor? food? clothing? Sorry sir (I assume you're male but I guess I can throw in ma'am for good measure) but you can whine and moan about how "divisive"  we are, but at the end of the day I don't have a problem giving my money to someone that's willing to work hard and diligently. The reason for that is because I've done so too, not on the backs and sweat of others, but by the sweat of my own brow. I've been working and running businesses several times in my life from little 1 man lawn mowing "operations" to running a business of a few hundred employees with my own fleet of trucks an things and I enjoy doing both because i DID build that. I've also specialized and worked with the government to try to get ex-convicts and offenders that ability to work and provide for their families and I did of course take advantage of ALL the tax cuts available to me because it helped my business which allowed me to help MORE people. But whatever you were born with a silver spoon somehow just by being american and because of it you've decided your self worth is less than someone elses because you have a house over your head and food on your plate. If you feel so bad do something with yourself and your life and serve the country that's given you what you have. Some of us care about what we have and understand that the things we're able to enjoy are because we're American and have worked tirelessly to have it. We can't apologize that other countries haven't done the same things for themselves.

One of my favorite sayings is "Not my monkey, not my circus" specifically because I can't speak to what other people did with the 2 pence they were given. I can only speak about mine and what I did, and I can say I'm proud of myself and I was able to help others be proud of themselves as well.


----------



## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 21, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> actually no, by itself my analogy works perfectly because this is MY home with MY family, we're americans here and we grow and work here to make this our country. If you ignore the basic necessities of things you have to work for to continue to make everything function the way that it should then you'd live in a utopia where computers and robots walk and eat for you and you just get to veg out and be a leech because it wouldn't matter what you do or how you do it.


Well ok then, if you're insistant on that analogy, let's look at it this way; let's say it's cold and rainy outside, and you notice there's a homeless person that's sopping wet and curled up in a fetal position at the base of your porch. Would you let them in and offer a meal and perhaps change of clothes, or would you shout at them to leave before you call the police?


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## Vahnyyz (Jan 21, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Well ok then let's look at it this way; let's say it's cold and rainy outside, and you notice there's a homeless person that's sopping wet and curled up in a fetal position at the base of your porch. Would you let them in and offer a meal and perhaps change of clothes, or would you shout at them to leave before you call the police?



Personally, I'd go outside with a change of clothing and some food and figure out where he's supposed to be, because it's not MY house. If he needs helping find a shelter or something we need to get him there. If he needs medical attention then he needs to go to a healthcare facility. If someone is suffering OUTSIDE MY DOOR it's my job to help them. But my priority is to protect the people I have in my house, and bringing some stranger into my house isn't doing that.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

question for gbatemp land out there. I'm curious how to disable notifications on a threat being updated. yes I'm talking about this one in case anyone was curious. I feel semi obligated to respond and I'd rather enjoy my time watching Dragonball Super. So if someone can tell me how to stop receiving notifications from this thread without having to change all my notification preferences that would be AWESOME!

and let's not be all "hur hur google is your friend" cause he's not


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 21, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> Personally, I'd go outside with a change of clothing and some food and figure out where he's supposed to be, because it's not MY house. If he needs helping find a shelter or something we need to get him there. If he needs medical attention then he needs to go to a healthcare facility. If someone is suffering OUTSIDE MY DOOR it's my job to help them. But my priority is to protect the people I have in my house, and bringing some stranger into my house isn't doing that.


The irony is palpable.


----------



## Vahnyyz (Jan 21, 2018)

blackwrensniper said:


> The irony is palpable.


The irony being that it's my job to help those outside my doorstep but not to bring them into my door? you mean how we have a million and 1 programs sending our resources, our doctors, our soldiers to places they don't need to be in because they've been called to serve and help? you mean that irony?


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## blackwrensniper (Jan 21, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> The irony being that it's my job to *help those outside my doorstep* but not to bring them into my door? you mean how we have a million and 1 programs *sending our resources, our doctors, our soldiers* to places they don't need to be in *because they've been called to serve and help?*


See previous statement.


----------



## kuwanger (Jan 21, 2018)

Vahnyyz said:


> actually no, by itself my analogy works perfectly because this is MY home with MY family, we're americans here and we grow and work here to make this our country. If you ignore the basic necessities of things you have to work for to continue to make everything function the way that it should then you'd live in a utopia where computers and robots walk and eat for you and you just get to veg out and be a leech because it wouldn't matter what you do or how you do it.



Now you're being sagacious (in the NewsRadio, sarcastic sense).  One, if you haven't figured out I'm American and it's not "your" home but "our" home.  As an American, I readily acknowledge that the greatness of our country required and requires the work of many individuals for which this country is clearly not striving for.  It's like we're on the deck of the Titanic and the ship is sinking.  We sort of realize an iceberg hit us, but as a whole we're not working towards actually fixing the hole.  We don't even seem competent enough to fix the hole.  We're just waving our arms around and shouting, "We've got a problem! We need to fix it!"  The talk of immigrants is such a massive distraction from the point that Congress has spent over a decade basically refusing to function.



Vahnyyz said:


> with respect to the Bill Gates reference; No I meant his ingenuity, his work ethic, his want for people to succeed. He saw a system that worked really well and made his own personal switch to it with Windows. I'm talking about the obvious and direct correlations between the original Mac PCs and his. As far as his "connections" he worked on his business and reached out to make those connections it's not like just because you work hard you automatically get Warren Buffet's personal cellphone and the assumption of something like that happening is simply asinine. With regards to his "ethics" I refer you back to my original "ingenuity" claim. Just because you don't like that he did something a certain way doesn't mean you can bit** about it, that would just make you petty and small which is obviously not what we're trying to prove here.



The street thug who survives another day has ingenuity.  The mob thug who consistent goes his rounds has a work ethic.  The grade school teacher has a want for people to succeed.  Meanwhile, the story of Bill Gates is much more the one of being clever enough to realize that IBM needing an OS for their new machines was a gold mine, if only he could buy one and pawn it off as his own.  And Windows was more the story of realizing that support IBM on its OS/2 project was probably doomed to failure, being tied to IBM, but a relative toy project of Windows inside of MS may be just the GUI that MS needed to move forward.

Meanwhile, the point of his connections is precisely that he knew to exploit each connection to finally being in a position to get a person like Warren Buffet's number.  I don't begrudge him that.  I do begrudge his ethics and to claim "[j]ust because you don't like that he did something a certain way doesn't mean you can bit** about it" is ludicrous if a major complaint about immigrants is their questionable morality and/or ethics.  The point isn't that Bill Gates hasn't done an amazing amount of work, or that he wouldn't under some other system (again, his criminal record could bar him most systems proposed) that I'd envision as fair.  It's that if you try to point out Bill Gates as an example or even a role model, then you can only expect people to point out why he is a bad role model in various ways.



Vahnyyz said:


> Finally your bullsh** argument that "we're all people" is stupid. Why would anyone have to accept you just because you're you?



They shouldn't.  Which also ruins any argument you can make because by extension, no one should accept you.  So, what you're left with is arbitrary standards.  I refuse your set.  You refuse my set.  I think my set has better standard based on history, but whatever you like is up to you.



Vahnyyz said:


> You think just because you're breathing and taking up space you automatically deserve respect? honor? food? clothing?



Respect is earned.  Honor is a privilege that can be granted or withdrawn as appropriate.  Food and clothing must be earned, although as a society we've gotten to the point of recognizing it better to keep people fed than to have riots in the streets.  In that sense, it's Americans who are the biggest moochers.  Of course, by extension so are a lot of job programs run by the government, like the military.  That the US government has such a thirst for combat, to I guess get good value for money out of all that military money, is atrocious.



Vahnyyz said:


> Sorry sir (I assume you're male but I guess I can throw in ma'am for good measure) but you can whine and moan about how "divisive" we are, but at the end of the day I don't have a problem giving my money to someone that's willing to work hard and diligently. The reason for that is because I've done so too, not on the backs and sweat of others, but by the sweat of my own brow. I've been working and running businesses several times in my life from little 1 man lawn mowing "operations" to running a business of a few hundred employees with my own fleet of trucks an things and I enjoy doing both because i DID build that. I've also specialized and worked with the government to try to get ex-convicts and offenders that ability to work and provide for their families and I did of course take advantage of ALL the tax cuts available to me because it helped my business which allowed me to help MORE people.



That's good to hear.  It's good to know you've spent a lot of effort in your life benefiting yourself and others.



Vahnyyz said:


> But whatever you were born with a silver spoon somehow just by being american and because of it you've decided your self worth is less than someone elses because you have a house over your head and food on your plate. If you feel so bad do something with yourself and your life and serve the country that's given you what you have. Some of us care about what we have and understand that the things we're able to enjoy are because we're American and have worked tirelessly to have it. We can't apologize that other countries haven't done the same things for themselves.



I have a question for you.  Of all the good you've done, do you think you've had a impact as great as Bill Gates?  Is it because you didn't care enough?  Is because you weren't smart enough?  Didn't work hard enough?  Or could it be, being born with a silver spoon gives you an edge but isn't an end unto itself*?  I don't put myself below other people for being American, but I also don't put myself above other people either.  I know I don't have the power to change the world.  By the very nature of things, if I could, I'd be nothing but a dictator.  I know I'm not omniscient, though, and I'd do a terrible job even if I had that sort of power.  So, I do what good I think I can in the scope of what I think I can responsibly.  If I hold everyone else to the same standards, I can't expect some random other country to suddenly spring to the level of American prosperity.  And it's very clear that except in some rare exceptions, the US government often through the US military isn't interested in trying to promote anyone to American prosperity.  Just to give some room for thought, though, consider two strong leadership countries like Russia and China and how terrible they are in so many ways.

Take it as apologizing, but I know that I personally didn't make America what it is today, and trying to claim my legacy as my own is a sort of delusional.  Now, if you want to argue not enough countries choose to learn from America's past and their leaders don't care and we shouldn't apologize for that, I'd tend to agree.  But in a human lifespan sense, most people are going to abandon ship and seek American prosperity in America.  The exceptions tend to be the angels and the demons.  The demons usually win because the demons have gun.



Vahnyyz said:


> One of my favorite sayings is "Not my monkey, not my circus" specifically because I can't speak to what other people did with the 2 pence they were given. I can only speak about mine and what I did, and I can say I'm proud of myself and I was able to help others be proud of themselves as well.



That's great.  I definitely agree that you can be proud for what you've done with your life.  The Bill Gates of Bangladesh will probably never become another Bill Gates.  Yet he can be proud of what he did--including his questionable relabeling of pigs feet as a cherished American delicacy.  I think, though, that we'd all be better off he was allowed to come to the US legally.  I don't think a government bureaucrat is going to see the possible fraud, though, and give him a pass--ignoring his whole general lack of relatives and money.

* The term silver spoon is a bit overused here, IMHO.  In a real sense, if I were born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I really wouldn't have to work because I could squander my inheritance.  That's true if I were born in the US or Vietnam (or most any other random country).  So, the truth is that to some extent the idea of all Americans with a silver spoon in their mouth is an illusion.  It's just not entirely unfounded relative to some countries that are, really, shitholes.


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## Tigran (Jan 21, 2018)

I just find it ammusing that almost everyone who goes "Like it or not.. TRUMP IS OUR PRESIDENT!" usually freaked out and claimed Obama wasn't their president, or wasn't even American. 

And Democrats motioned for the Military to get paid during the closure. Republicans shot it down. So, so much for Republicans being for our Troops.

And again, like it or not.. The 14th amendment gives the immigrants the same rights as Citizens.


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## Hanafuda (Jan 21, 2018)




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## ComeTurismO (Jan 21, 2018)

Trump once said in 2013 that the President is weak, when the government shut down. Now that he is President, he is not blaming himself - he is blaming Democrats - who are the minority party in the US - and 5 Republicans in the Senate voted YES to the government shut down. It is him and his party themselves to blame for the government shutdown, IMO.


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## Tigran (Jan 21, 2018)

McConnell doesn't even want our troops paid.

www.c-span.org/video/?c4710181/senator-mcconnell-objects-military-pay-protection


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## Futurdreamz (Jan 22, 2018)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...overnment-shutdowns-2/?utm_term=.92a17b44897d

I'm just going to say that any discussion on immigration is irrelevant in the face of a government shutdown. My understanding is that the Democrat will refuse to pass a budget until the immigration laws are passed, while the Republicans refuse to discuss ANYTHING until a budget is passed. Using the budget as a political football to force an agreeable vote on your policy is an insane act, which would literally not be accepted anywhere else.


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## Xzi (Jan 22, 2018)

Trump's staff are reportedly preventing him from striking a deal with Democrats:

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...ump-from-striking-compromise-with-dems-to-end

I agree that this is ridiculous to use as a political football, but depending on how long the shutdown lasts I'm going to start wondering if this wasn't the Republicans' goal all along.  I don't think it's going to score them any points with the general public, though.


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## Futurdreamz (Jan 22, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Trump's staff are reportedly preventing him from striking a deal with Democrats:
> 
> http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...ump-from-striking-compromise-with-dems-to-end
> 
> I agree that this is ridiculous to use as a political football, but depending on how long the shutdown lasts I'm going to start wondering if this wasn't the Republicans' goal all along.  I don't think it's going to score them any points with the general public, though.


It might score enough points for passing a law preventing government shutdowns due to budget issues.


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## Xzi (Jan 22, 2018)

Futurdreamz said:


> It might score enough points for passing a law preventing government shutdowns due to budget issues.


If the last shutdown didn't manage that, I doubt this one will either.  Setting up an "auto-budget" seems like an easily abused concept as well.


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## Tigran (Jan 23, 2018)

Trump himself says HE should be fired... Oh wait, that only applied to a black man.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...-obama-for-2013-government-shutdown-resurface


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## brickmii82 (Jan 23, 2018)

I pay a lot of attention to the centrist/independent opinions. I see a bad mid-terms for the GOP in winter coming. People are starting to cross back over due to chaos and confusion in the White House. This shut-down didn’t help at all. 

Whatever argument you have for Republicans, many are looking at a GOP controlled government being responsible. I think the President and GOP needs to get an immigration bill done and signed to bring back the independents, and sweep this mess under the rug. They committed publicly to addressing it so if they don’t follow through, it’s gonna hurt come mid-terms. 

I liked the way Sen. Graham was handling things. He seems to be more moderate than I imagined. I could see him helping get one done and keeping McConnell honest. Sen. Tom Cotton sounds like an ass. Not a fan. Hoping he gets ousted and replaced.


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## Hanafuda (Jan 23, 2018)




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## Xzi (Jan 23, 2018)

Hanafuda said:


>



This is a stupid narrative and I'm not sure why they're spinning it this way.  Democrats got CHIP for free and they can shut down government again in three weeks if they don't get what they want from further negotiations.  The Republicans left the Dems with all the leverage.

Nobody wins in an extended shutdown, Dems know that.  Three weeks of funding is not three years.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/22/16920532/shutdown-deal-democrats


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## Joe88 (Jan 23, 2018)

6 year extension on chip was already in the first cr, it had bipartisan support
The dems didnt get anything other than talks on daca, they really need to get the budget done rather then keep doing cr's though. Its not good for either party at this point.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 23, 2018)

To be fair, Trump _did _promise during his campaign to lead the government like his businesses, most of which have declared bankruptcy.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jan 23, 2018)

Xzi said:


> This is a stupid narrative and I'm not sure why they're spinning it this way.  Democrats got CHIP for free and they can shut down government again in three weeks if they don't get what they want from further negotiations.  The Republicans left the Dems with all the leverage.
> 
> Nobody wins in an extended shutdown, Dems know that.  Three weeks of funding is not three years.


The problem is that Chuck Shumer is essentially trusting Mitch McConnell on his word that in two weeks, DACA will go to the Senate floor for a funding discussion. Forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical on trusting anything that comes out of McConnell's mouth, especially regarding something that would be counter to his party's position.

And, to add to that, CHIP used to be a bipartisan program, but Republicans just used it as leverage to drop funding for DACA (which is slimy and disgusting). So really, we didn't get CHIP for "free"

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



ThisIsDaAccount said:


> To be fair, Trump _did _promise during his campaign to lead the government like his businesses, most of which have declared bankruptcy.


If this is what he's been leading his businesses like it's no wonder he went under so many times


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 23, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The problem is that Chuck Shumer is essentially trusting Mitch McConnell on his word that in two weeks, DACA will go to the Senate floor for a funding discussion. Forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical on trusting anything that comes out of McConnell's mouth, especially regarding something that would be counter to his party's position.
> 
> And, to add to that, CHIP used to be a bipartisan program, but Republicans just used it as leverage to drop funding for DACA (which is slimy and disgusting). So really, we didn't get CHIP for "free"


The current budget resolution only extends until Feb. 8. If (when) McConnell goes back on his word, they can shutdown the government if they want to again. I don't really want that, but there's a good chance it'll happen.


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## Xzi (Jan 23, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> The problem is that Chuck Shumer is essentially trusting Mitch McConnell on his word that in two weeks, DACA will go to the Senate floor for a funding discussion. Forgive me if I'm a bit sceptical on trusting anything that comes out of McConnell's mouth, especially regarding something that would be counter to his party's position.
> 
> And, to add to that, CHIP used to be a bipartisan program, but Republicans just used it as leverage to drop funding for DACA (which is slimy and disgusting). So really, we didn't get CHIP for "free"


He's not trusting him, otherwise the Dems wouldn't have kept their leverage.  What little they have being a vast minority, anyway.

_Used to be_ being the key phrase here.  Yes the Republicans were using children's healthcare as a bargaining chip, but they just lost that chip.  Not to mention how that allows Democrats to brand their opponents toward mid-terms.  Anti-immigrant, anti-children, anti-everything.


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## MaverickWellington (Jan 23, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> To be fair, Trump _did _promise during his campaign to lead the government like his businesses, most of which have declared bankruptcy.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareo...mp-made-bankruptcy-work-for-him/#19851d517ffa
I wouldn't worry so much about it. Bankruptcy is not irrecoverable like people paint it out to be. Most businesses have typically filed for it at some point. It's not a sign of "we fucked up, time to close" so much as it is "we aren't as successful as we could and should be right now." Bankruptcies can go either way.

https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/8243-businesses-recovered-from-bankruptcy.html


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Jan 23, 2018)

MaverickWellington said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareo...mp-made-bankruptcy-work-for-him/#19851d517ffa
> I wouldn't worry so much about it. Bankruptcy is not irrecoverable like people paint it out to be. Most businesses have typically filed for it at some point. It's not a sign of "we fucked up, time to close" so much as it is "we aren't as successful as we could and should be right now." Bankruptcies can go either way.
> 
> https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/8243-businesses-recovered-from-bankruptcy.html


Fair enough, although a lot of them did go under. If I recall correctly, he opened a mortgage business just before the recession. He also had an airline, a steak company, and several casinos that went under


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## Xzi (Jan 23, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> Fair enough, although a lot of them did go under. If I recall correctly, he opened a mortgage business just before the recession. He also had an airline, a steak company, and several casinos that went under


Trump lost pretty much all of his daddy's money.  Deutsche Bank and Ladder Capital have given Trump his new money, but that's tied up in loans.  Of course, Deutsche Bank doesn't really expect Trump to pay this stuff back, he already welched on them once but they kept loaning to him anyway for some mysterious reason (*cough* Putin).  Deutsche Bank is now under scrutiny by both the FBI and Mueller's investigation, and they very recently handed over records of suspicious transactions from Jared Kushner.

http://www.newsweek.com/deutsche-ba...ushners-suspicious-transactions-robert-786011


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## Xzi (Feb 6, 2018)

So we're close to the next shutdown deadline (because the tax cuts took a bigger financial toll than expected, math isn't Republican's strong suit) and this thread is once again relevant.  Trump is throwing a hissy over funding for his border wall that he promised Mexico would pay for, and not the US taxpayers.  So he actually said the words, "I'd love to see a shutdown."

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/372576-trump-id-love-to-see-a-shutdown

(Video with audio included in the article)

Eliminating all doubt about who to blame if another does happen.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 6, 2018)

Xzi said:


> So we're close to the next shutdown deadline (because the tax cuts took a bigger financial toll than expected, math isn't Republican's strong suit) and this thread is once again relevant.  Trump is throwing a hissy over funding for his border wall that he promised Mexico would pay for, and not the US taxpayers.  So he actually said the words, "I'd love to see a shutdown."
> 
> http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/372576-trump-id-love-to-see-a-shutdown
> 
> ...


Ffs weren't they just gonna do the deal where Trump gets the wall and the Democrats get DACA?


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## Xzi (Feb 6, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> Ffs weren't they just gonna do the deal where Trump gets the wall and the Democrats get DACA?


I don't believe anything was explicitly agreed upon, and even if it was, you can't expect Trump to stay in an agreeable mood for very long.

This isn't even related to budget talks really, it has only come about because the government is running out of funding faster than expected after the corporate tax cuts.  That cost a lot of money, and now Republicans want the taxpayers to foot yet another bill that we see no personal benefit from paying.


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## Futurdreamz (Feb 6, 2018)

Xzi said:


> I don't believe anything was explicitly agreed upon, and even if it was, you can't expect Trump to stay in an agreeable mood for very long.
> 
> This isn't even related to budget talks really, it has only come about because the government is running out of funding faster than expected after the corporate tax cuts.  That cost a lot of money, and now Republicans want the taxpayers to foot yet another bill that we see no personal benefit from paying.


Maybe they intend to cut expenses instead?


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## Xzi (Feb 7, 2018)

Futurdreamz said:


> Maybe they intend to cut expenses instead?


They want to cut specific things, like Social Security and Medicade/Medicare, but that's more a result of their political agenda than a desire to balance the budget.  This administration's spending has been far higher than most from the start, and GWB already proved that Republicans don't care about the deficit or overspending when they're the ones in charge.


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## Xzi (Feb 9, 2018)

Second shutdown has begun:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42999286

"I'd love to see a shutdown." - DJT


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 9, 2018)

Xzi said:


> Second shutdown has begun:
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42999286
> 
> "I'd love to see a shutdown." - DJT


A new budget just passed the Senate though. It seems this shutdown will only be a few hours long (which is how long it will take the House to pass it).


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## Xzi (Feb 9, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> A new budget just passed the Senate though. It seems this shutdown will only be a few hours long (which is how long it will take the House to pass it).


The Senate is bad enough, but never underestimate the stupidity of the House.  Hopefully it does pass.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 9, 2018)

Xzi said:


> The Senate is bad enough, but never underestimate the stupidity of the House.  Hopefully it does pass.


Fair enough, but the House is a large Republican majority, and Paul Ryan wants the new budget passed.


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## brickmii82 (Feb 9, 2018)




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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 9, 2018)

The shutdown is over.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 9, 2018)

This government is full or morons, and it's been that way for decades.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 11, 2018)

brickmii82 said:


>



I actually just spent an hour to watch that entire speech, and I must say that I do believe it was good. I don't stand with Rand Paul on a whole lot of issues, but I appreciate that he's willing to say that all deficits are bad, not just Democrat deficits.

What made me really mad, however, is when he said he didn't care to turn down tax cuts because he thinks they increase liberty. That really frustrated me, because it shows this guy is no deficit hawk, he's just a spending hawk. If you cut taxes by a trillion dollars, then it's gonna take a trillion dollar spending cut to get you back to where you are, and I can guarantee you it's not easy to cut spending by a trillion. Just cutting spending and but also cutting taxes doesn't fix the debt, it leaves if exactly where it is.

Rand Paul mentioned that if we don't fix the debt, there's gonna be a day of reckoning where we all pay for it. That hit really close to home, because I moved to the US because the day of reckoning came for the country I'm from (Argentina). If you're curious about that, take a look at this. The US is in a better position than Argentina was, since the US has its debt in dollars, its own currency (which it doesn't have to convert) and Argentina's spending was even worse because of rampant corruption, with Argentinian politicians actually sending tax money to their own bank accounts, aka stealing it. The US situation isn't nearly as bad, so it's day of reckoning isn't any time soon. Nevertheless it's gonna come, and Rand Paul needs to stop saying "muh tax cuts" and actually pass a tax increase along with spending cuts. We don't need libertarianism, we need austerity.


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## Captain_N (Feb 11, 2018)

Dems would rather worry about DACA then actually funding the government. The priority should be a good bill to keep government operations going before you worry about anything to do with immigrants... No one in that damn place cares about the true issues and the massive debt that not even all the gold in the world can solve. If those 80% Americans want the DACA kids to be citizens so bad then why dont they pay for all the paper work then?


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## the_randomizer (Feb 11, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> Dems would rather worry about DACA then actually funding the government. The priority should be a good bill to keep government operations going before you worry about anything to do with immigrants... No one in that damn place cares about the true issues and the massive debt that not even all the gold in the world can solve. If those 80% Americans want the DACA kids to be citizens so bad then why dont they pay for all the paper work then?



First, I think the government should streamline the process for those who want to be citizens, to actually have the possibility in reach and not some pipe dream. As it stands now, the path to citizenship for immigrants is a bloody joke. Second, sanctuary cities who are harboring illegal immigrants from deportation should be penalized with heavy fines.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 11, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> Dems would rather worry about DACA then actually funding the government. The priority should be a good bill to keep government operations going before you worry about anything to do with immigrants... No one in that damn place cares about the true issues and the massive debt that not even all the gold in the world can solve. If those 80% Americans want the DACA kids to be citizens so bad then why dont they pay for all the paper work then?


The Dems supported the budget that just got a vote, and it doesn't have DACA. 

Also, Republicans also told Trump that he shouldn't repeal DACA


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## Captain_N (Feb 11, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> The Dems supported the budget that just got a vote, and it doesn't have DACA.
> 
> Also, Republicans also told Trump that he shouldn't repeal DACA


Both sides should know by now Trump is a big troll. By getting pissed at him and trying to get at him by sitting on their hands at the State of the Union speech, hes gonna troll them even harder. He knows he can make them act by trolling the crap out of them. He makes both sides play the Game his way. Its impressive how he has destroyed the media as well. They are so salty. CNN is clueless as what to do with him lol.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 11, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> Both sides should know by now Trump is a big troll. By getting pissed at him and trying to get at him by sitting on their hands at the State of the Union speech, hes gonna troll them even harder. He knows he can make them act by trolling the crap out of them. He makes both sides play the Game his way. Its impressive how he has destroyed the media as well. They are so salty. CNN is clueless as what to do with him lol.



CNN can suck it, any station is better than them.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 11, 2018)

Captain_N said:


> Both sides should know by now Trump is a big troll. By getting pissed at him and trying to get at him by sitting on their hands at the State of the Union speech, hes gonna troll them even harder. He knows he can make them act by trolling the crap out of them. He makes both sides play the Game his way. Its impressive how he has destroyed the media as well. They are so salty. CNN is clueless as what to do with him lol.


I'm not gonna argue this point a lot because I've gotten tired of arguing it, but I'll say that I disagree that Trump is a master politician looking to manipulate both sides by pissing them off. I think he's just generally got little patience and doesn't understand politics much. 

As for the DACA part, I think he just chose to repeal it because his aides told him to, in fact, the reason for the first shutdown (the one that didn't last two hours) was that Republicans Democrats agreed to pay for both the wall and DACA, and Trump was all for it till he changed his mind two days later because Steven Miller told him to not do it. He literally turned down his biggest campaign promise, the wall, because he threw a tantrum

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



the_randomizer said:


> CNN can suck it, any station is better than them.


CNN can definitely suck it, but every other cable station is just as bad. They're all just looking for profits and ratings, there are much better news sources than cable news


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## the_randomizer (Feb 11, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> I'm not gonna argue this point a lot because I've gotten tired of arguing it, but I'll say that I disagree that Trump is a master politician looking to manipulate both sides by pissing them off. I think he's just generally got little patience and doesn't understand politics much.
> 
> As for the DACA part, I think he just chose to repeal it because his aides told him to, in fact, the reason for the first shutdown (the one that didn't last two hours) was that Republicans Democrats agreed to pay for both the wall and DACA, and Trump was all for it till he changed his mind two days later because Steven Miller told him to not do it. He literally turned down his biggest campaign promise, the wall, because he threw a tantrum
> 
> ...



I tend to avoid cable news, it's too biased in one way or another.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 11, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I tend to avoid cable news, it's too biased in one way or another.


Same here


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## brickmii82 (Feb 11, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> I actually just spent an hour to watch that entire speech, and I must say that I do believe it was good. I don't stand with Rand Paul on a whole lot of issues, but I appreciate that he's willing to say that all deficits are bad, not just Democrat deficits.
> 
> What made me really mad, however, is when he said he didn't care to turn down tax cuts because he thinks they increase liberty. That really frustrated me, because it shows this guy is no deficit hawk, he's just a spending hawk. If you cut taxes by a trillion dollars, then it's gonna take a trillion dollar spending cut to get you back to where you are, and I can guarantee you it's not easy to cut spending by a trillion. Just cutting spending and but also cutting taxes doesn't fix the debt, it leaves if exactly where it is.
> 
> Rand Paul mentioned that if we don't fix the debt, there's gonna be a day of reckoning where we all pay for it. That hit really close to home, because I moved to the US because the day of reckoning came for the country I'm from (Argentina). If you're curious about that, take a look at this. The US is in a better position than Argentina was, since the US has its debt in dollars, its own currency (which it doesn't have to convert) and Argentina's spending was even worse because of rampant corruption, with Argentinian politicians actually sending tax money to their own bank accounts, aka stealing it. The US situation isn't nearly as bad, so it's day of reckoning isn't any time soon. Nevertheless it's gonna come, and Rand Paul needs to stop saying "muh tax cuts" and actually pass a tax increase along with spending cuts. We don't need libertarianism, we need austerity.


The main point of the speech imo was that congress needs to do their jobs even if it puts people on the spot or consumes more of their time. Before he made it, he was asking for Amendment debate. His point was that they just laid down a 700 page bill, and no one wanted to talk about what’s in it before voting on it.

As far as taxes, I don’t believe individuals should have to pay more than 25% of their income. Business taxing is a different story. The more national resources a business uses, the more taxes they should pay.


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## dimmidice (Feb 11, 2018)

the_randomizer said:


> I tend to avoid cable news, it's too biased in one way or another.


What no foxs news?


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## Joe88 (Feb 11, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> As for the DACA part, I think he just chose to repeal it because his aides told him to, in fact, the reason for the first shutdown (the one that didn't last two hours) was that Republicans Democrats agreed to pay for both the wall and DACA, and Trump was all for it till he changed his mind two days later because Steven Miller told him to not do it. He literally turned down his biggest campaign promise, the wall, because he threw a tantrum


Thats not what happened at all, they were meeting during the week for a separate bipartisan immigration reform bill which would included daca, then the shithole thing happened and the whole thing fell apart (insert liberal media fake outrage here) 
Then on the day they were going to approve a continuing resolution bill (more kick the can down the road because congress can't do anything) which would have passed with 60 votes, senator schumer wanted to add amnesty for daca recipients into the CR bill, which had 0 chance of passing the house or the congress, there was nothing even on the floor or in the bill about daca to even vote on, trump met with schumer on friday, schumer said he offered 25B or so for wall funding for daca amnesty, but the president never said anything about it, it was just grandstanding and the government shutdown over it.
It should be noted that they don't just want wall funding, they also want to end the visa lottery and chain migration, it was always going to be a separate bill not shoehorned in at the last second into a complety different bill thinking you will sneak one by.


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 11, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> Thats not what happened at all, they were meeting during the week for a separate bipartisan immigration reform bill which would included daca, then the shithole thing happened and the whole thing fell apart (insert liberal media fake outrage here)
> Then on the day they were going to approve a continuing resolution bill (more kick the can down the road because congress can't do anything) which would have passed with 60 votes, senator schumer wanted to add amnesty for daca recipients into the CR bill, which had 0 chance of passing the house or the congress, there was nothing even on the floor or in the bill about daca to even vote on, trump met with schumer on friday, schumer said he offered 25B or so for wall funding for daca amnesty, but the president never said anything about it, it was just grandstanding and the government shutdown over it.
> It should be noted that they don't just want wall funding, they also want to end the visa lottery and chain migration, it was always going to be a separate bill not shoehorned in at the last second into a complety different bill thinking you will sneak one by.


https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/21/government-shutdown-immigration-graham-miller-354747

There's an article on trump switching on his position due to his aides, particularly Steven Miller. Just saying, that could have prevented a shutdown altogether. 

Also, I haven't found any source on Schumer trying to shoehorn in anything (just to be clear, I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just asking you for a source).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



brickmii82 said:


> The main point of the speech imo was that congress needs to do their jobs even if it puts people on the spot or consumes more of their time. Before he made it, he was asking for Amendment debate. His point was that they just laid down a 700 page bill, and no one wanted to talk about what’s in it before voting on it.
> 
> As far as taxes, I don’t believe individuals should have to pay more than 25% of their income. Business taxing is a different story. The more national resources a business uses, the more taxes they should pay.


I understand that, and he's right that people need to do their job. I'm just saying that he shouldn't call himself a deficit hawk if he's not willing to raise taxes. If you cut both spending and taxes, you're usually not helping the debt at all, you should be raising taxes AND cutting spending. If he's only doing the second part, he's not a deficit hawk. 

Also, I don't believe that taxes should be more than 25% either, but that's not a valid reason to pass a tax cut under a $20,000,000,000,000 debt. Unless the economy is straight up in danger, the debt needs to go.


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## Xzi (Feb 14, 2018)

Since the discussion has recently focused on DACA, I thought it might be relevant information that the courts decided to fully restore it on the basis that the Trump administration failed to provide sufficient basis for its repeal:

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/13/court-orders-full-restoration-daca-program/

Trump's own comments on these issues again played a role in the decision, much like with the previous Muslim ban repeal.


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## Joe88 (Feb 14, 2018)

and like the travel ban it will just go to the SCOTUS and declared legal by judges to actual rule on the law and not feeling or trying to make a political statement, it was put in by executive order than it can be removed by executive order


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 14, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> and like the travel ban it will just go to the SCOTUS and declared legal by judges to actual rule on the law and not feeling or trying to make a political statement, it was put in by executive order than it can be removed by executive order


Executive orders are regulated by the Supreme Court, we have a system of checks and balances


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## dpad_5678 (Feb 14, 2018)

Thank you, PedoCheeto. You're doing a wonderful job......


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 14, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> and like the travel ban it will just go to the SCOTUS and declared legal by judges to actual rule on the law and not feeling or trying to make a political statement, it was put in by executive order than it can be removed by executive order


Seems likely at this point, hopefully by then it'll have been turned into law by Congress. 

My opinion:
I'm not a fan of illegal immigration, but it's not the DACA recipients' fault that they were brought into the US illegally. Plus, it's not like they're gonna get full citizenship status, being under DACA just gives you a piece of paper saying "Congrats, next time we see you we won't try to drag you against your will to a country you don't know". It also begins to seem like a good policy when you realize Republican leaders like Paul Ryan told trump not to repeal it. 
Honestly, if we get DACA as a full law because of Trump's actions, I'll count this as a positive for his administration even though he'll have largely not done much.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Feb 14, 2018)

ThisIsDaAccount said:


> It also begins to seem like a good policy when you realize Republican leaders like Paul Ryan told trump not to repeal it.


Even though I agree with your overall stance in this case, I pray to God that that isn't the way you judge most pieces of legislation


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## ThisIsDaAccount (Feb 15, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Even though I agree with your overall stance in this case, I pray to God that that isn't the way you judge most pieces of legislation


I certainly don't, I was just quoting his stance to say that DACA isn't something only Dems want. It's bipartisan and it's got plenty of support from both sides of the aisle. I was just referring to Paul Ryan to represent the Republicsn side. 

I disagree with most of his policies tho


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## Xzi (Feb 15, 2018)

Joe88 said:


> and like the travel ban it will just go to the SCOTUS and declared legal by judges to actual rule on the law and not feeling or trying to make a political statement, it was put in by executive order than it can be removed by executive order


The court ruling doesn't deny that the president has the authority to repeal DACA, only that the Trump administration has not provided sufficient reasoning for DACA's repeal.


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