# Nintendo files lawsuit against RCM Loader seller, claims piracy is a worsening international problem



## BlastedGuy9905 (Nov 19, 2020)

Well, in my opinion, Ninty isn't correct this time, since SX actually promoted piracy.. This just lets you modify your console, which doesn't mean piracy. They'll still probably win the case...


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## dragonmaster (Nov 19, 2020)

i want them to try this on european court 
if they were ever serious they would not have released joycons with this drift problem


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## Dust2dust (Nov 19, 2020)

This can still be bought easily on sites like aliexpress.  I wonder why Nintendo goes to all that trouble for a simple reseller.  If a user is savvy enough to use an RCM dongle, surely he would know how to use the equivalent app on his phone to do the same, or use TegraRCMgui on the PC.  Plenty of ways to push a payload.


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## beermonkey (Nov 19, 2020)

Next up Nintendo files lawsuit against paperclip and tinfoil manufacturers for allowing people to hack switch console.


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## leerpsp (Nov 19, 2020)

I hope they don't win this case because if it is its a setback for the people that don't use it for piracy and a setback for homebrew as a whole, The way I see it if you own a system its yours to do with what you want, as for Piracy yes I can 100% see why they go after people for it and they should but the fact they are trying to turn the switch off for homebrew all together is a problem and the RCM loader does not let you steal games it lets you use homebrew, the only thing that lets you use the free games are the people that make the programs that let others do it and if its out there people will use it, they don't need to go after people that are selling rcm loaders or using homebrew they need to go after the people that make piracy possible.


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## Bladexdsl (Nov 19, 2020)

nintapple at it a fucking again


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## zoogie (Nov 19, 2020)

Wow, didn't know they were selling these on Amazon, it even has Prime shipping. 
Thanks for the advertisement, Nintendo


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## Deleted User (Nov 19, 2020)

nintendo are one of the primary reasons piracy is "becoming so bad" :^)


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## ELY_M (Nov 19, 2020)

This PISSED ME OFF!!!!!!    RCM Loader devices DO NOT help you with piracy at all        they are IDIOTS!!!!!!

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

if the judges in the court are smart.  they will not let this lawsuit win and toss that case out.


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## zoogie (Nov 19, 2020)

Seems like they could try a "mostly legitimate use" defense, but the feature list includes running SXOS and ReiNX - that doesn't do them any favors.


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## mattyxarope (Nov 19, 2020)

I can't even imagine these posing a problem to Nintendo - what's the percentage of people that have V1 switches anyway??


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## nWo (Nov 19, 2020)

Love Nintendo, but this is getting out of hand. The TX case okay, I understand but this?


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## mail.22 (Nov 19, 2020)




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## shanefromoz (Nov 19, 2020)

Dont even need an RCM Loader. Can do the same with my Samsung phone. Are they going to sue Samsung also?


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## Silent_Gunner (Nov 19, 2020)

Doesn't Le Hoang Minh live in China? Or is this not the same guy who was doing so when the other two guys with Team Xecuter got arrested?

EDIT: read that last paragraph and also the fact that this is over RCM loaders. Are these those weird dongles that upload the payload to the Switch? Or is this any RCM jig?


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## Dust2dust (Nov 19, 2020)

zoogie said:


> Wow, didn't know they were selling these on Amazon, it even has Prime shipping.
> Thanks for the advertisement, Nintendo


You remind me of the first time I heard of the R4 flashcards for the DS. It was a story about Nintendo sueing some reseller.  Indeed, thanks for keeping us informed, Nintendo.


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## ClickCLK (Nov 19, 2020)

Nintendo need to sue nvidia, two times even: first time for weak security in their chips and second time for even having recovery mode on those chips. Oh, and a third time too, for selling them tegra chips at all, because tegra chips can run code, which inevitably leads to possibility of piracy.


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## yoyoyo69 (Nov 19, 2020)

dragonmaster said:


> i want them to try this on european court
> if they were ever serious they would not have released joycons with this drift problem



Have to say I agree. Whilst I agree piracy "can" have negative effects on the industry, it's a shame that a corporation wallet can allow them to dictate what a user can and can't do with their device.

It's all the more worse when Nintendo have intentionally released s faulty product, as well as continuing to sell them, even when revised, still immense failure rate.

Cash speaks and it only ever speaks for those who own it.


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## elk1007 (Nov 19, 2020)

Piracy will end when its more convenient to buy a game than to steal it.


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## Dust2dust (Nov 19, 2020)

elk1007 said:


> Piracy will end when its more convenient to buy a game than to steal it.


Not necessarily.  It's just fun to make your console do something that it shouldn't be able to do.  That's half of the fun.  The other half is saving money.


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## Deleted User (Nov 19, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> Doesn't Le Hoang Minh live in China? Or is this not the same guy who was doing so when the other two guys with Team Xecuter got arrested?
> 
> EDIT: read that last paragraph and also the fact that this is over RCM loaders. Are these those weird dongles that upload the payload to the Switch? Or is this any RCM jig?


presuming dongles. which I seriously hope Nintendo doesn't win this case. Since those don't really provide piracy. Just modding in general.


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## Adran_Marit (Nov 19, 2020)

I for one personally hope they loose this case and maybe that will make way for more open source projects... DIv2


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## Deleted User (Nov 19, 2020)

in my eyes it's like saying an sd card with certain files for hacking a wii is piracy.


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## Silent_Gunner (Nov 19, 2020)

monkeyman4412 said:


> presuming dongles. which I seriously hope Nintendo doesn't win this case. Since those don't really provide piracy. Just modding in general.



Shit. Why stop at dongles? Why not toss ODEs into the mix as well?

Better get the stuff you want while you still can!


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## Dust2dust (Nov 19, 2020)

If they were able to get a cease and desist against the Dragon Injector project, why not go after the other RCM dongles?  Luckily they are made in China, so not such an easy task for them.  But honestly, anyone who has a first gen unpatched V1 Switch should already have his RCM dongle, if he wanted one in the first place.


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## MagnesG (Nov 19, 2020)

This is just another case where the seller had been very blatant about the piracy route from the product page itself, citing SX OS etc. He even counter claim back to make it worse, and selling it on Amazon of all places.

Nintendo won't be playing this game all of above didn't happen. The seller is just an idiot.


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## MeAndHax (Nov 19, 2020)

dafuq is this?


in the file it says Le lives in Vietnam, so why the f*ck would he even care a single bit that Nintendo America has sued him? Lmaoo i would just throw the letter away into the trash bin and continue selling it. Nintendo is going nuts right now.


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## MohammedQ8 (Nov 19, 2020)

It funny that Nintendo now have enough money to sue the world thanks to switch. Where were you in wii u days hehe. Instead of suing people they should fix or make new joys models.


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## DJPlace (Nov 19, 2020)

yet another one bites the dust. nintendo got serious with this now yet again.


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## Chrisssj2 (Nov 19, 2020)

ELY_M said:


> This PISSED ME OFF!!!!!!    RCM Loader devices DO NOT help you with piracy at all        they are IDIOTS!!!!!!
> 
> --------------------- MERGED ---------------------------
> 
> if the judges in the court are smart.  they will not let this lawsuit win and toss that case out.


Yup just as astmosphere and SX OS. BOTH can be used for either homebrew or piracy. It doesn't mean exclusively the latter.


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## pcwizard7 (Nov 19, 2020)

astmosphere and SX OS. BOTH can be used for either homebrew or piracy so how SX the ones who promote privacy and not atmos. you can charge them for earning money off it.


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## mattyxarope (Nov 19, 2020)

pcwizard7 said:


> astmosphere and SX OS. BOTH can be used for either homebrew or piracy so how SX the ones who promote privacy and not atmos. you can charge them for earning money off it.



SXOS includes keys that are technically owned by Nintendo making them illegal to distribute. 

SX was sued recently because they were producing mod chips that had these illegally distributed keys baked into them. 

That's the difference.


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## NeroAngelo (Nov 19, 2020)

I doubt they could win this case,  it's more of tangle the company in legal fees and scare them into stopping


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## Axido (Nov 19, 2020)

"Worsening international problem"... yeah, right.

How old are those lawyers? 18?
Look at how common piracy was in the good old Amiga and Commodore days... or with the Nintendo DS and Sony PSP (in fact it is pretty hard to find a used PSP that hasn't been hacked yet)... or how comparatively easy it was to hack a Wii. Now look at the Switch. By now the majority of units can't even be hacked using a jig and an RCM loader.

If anything, piracy has become far more niche than it used to be.


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## tigersaman (Nov 19, 2020)

To those who were cheering Nintendo for lawsuit against SX : In the eyes of nintendo we are all on the same side. If one goes down, others go down too.


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## shanefromoz (Nov 19, 2020)

Are Nintendo seriously that dumb.
We dont need rcm loaders anymore.
Same thing can be done using a mobile phone and usb c to usb c lead


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## GatoFiestero (Nov 19, 2020)

I highly recommend the RCM Loader it has worked perfect for me for quite some time.


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## Technicmaster0 (Nov 19, 2020)

I think that the result of a lawsuit depends on what the end user does with the product and most will probably use it for piracy.
There was decision by the european court about what copy protection means etc back in 2014: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=146686&doclang=EN and I don't think that RCM dongles would win under this ruling.
Anyways, they probably won't get close to that layer. Most of these cases settle before someone is sentenced


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## studio1b (Nov 19, 2020)

nintnedo will win the case.
RCMloaders come with payloaders pre installed on the device ( do not know why the sellers would include this )
but right off the bat you getting sued for that reason


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## lokomelo (Nov 19, 2020)

What's next then? Legally chase jig sellers?


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## studio1b (Nov 19, 2020)

the jig is not illegal 
the RCMLOADER is when u have payloaders included

* NOTE TO NEW SELLERS *
DO NOT INCLUDED PAYLOADERS ON YOUR DEVICES


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## CompSciOrBust (Nov 19, 2020)

mattyxarope said:


> I can't even imagine these posing a problem to Nintendo - what's the percentage of people that have V1 switches anyway??


It's probably high. I think the real question is how many people with V1 switches are willing to hack it who haven't already hacked it.


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## Paulsar99 (Nov 19, 2020)

Nintendo might as well sue every safety pin, tinfoil, and paper clip maker. Lmao! People are also using phones and pc's as payloaders.


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## GatoFiestero (Nov 19, 2020)

studio1b said:


> the jig is not illegal
> the RCMLOADER is when u have payloaders included
> 
> * NOTE TO NEW SELLERS *
> DO NOT INCLUDED PAYLOADERS ON YOUR DEVICES



but payloaders are not illegal software itself


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## studio1b (Nov 19, 2020)

GatoFiestero said:


> but payloaders are not illegal software itself


and thats like saying the RCM LOADER is not illegal itself aswell its a everyday chipset in the device, flashed for pushing a payloader. so how does nintendo go after them for that. its a run around then


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## GatoFiestero (Nov 19, 2020)

studio1b said:


> and thats like saying the RCM LOADER is not illegal itself aswell its a everyday chipset in the device, flashed for pushing a payloader. so how does nintendo go after them for that. its a run around then


Even if Nintendo manages to demonstrate that the RCM Loader and its payloads are used to exploit the fusee-gelee vulnerability, this does not imply that it is for piracy, but may be for educational purposes. And even if Nintendo manages to prove that everyone is using the RCM Loader for hacking, that doesn't imply that the culprit is whoever built it. This is the easy part, from here Nintendo's lawyers have to break their heads to be able to sue.


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## Technicmaster0 (Nov 19, 2020)

studio1b said:


> the jig is not illegal
> the RCMLOADER is when u have payloaders included
> 
> * NOTE TO NEW SELLERS *
> DO NOT INCLUDED PAYLOADERS ON YOUR DEVICES


Not true. Courts also check the purpose of the device. At least here in europe.



GatoFiestero said:


> Even if Nintendo manages to demonstrate that the RCM Loader and its payloads are used to exploit the fusee-gelee vulnerability, this does not imply that it is for piracy, but may be for educational purposes. And even if Nintendo manages to prove that everyone is using the RCM Loader for hacking, that doesn't imply that the culprit is whoever built it. This is the easy part, from here Nintendo's lawyers have to break their heads to be able to sue.


According to the eugh ruling I linked on the second page, the courts have to check what the device is beeing used for (that can go as far as to check the actual customers) and that's what it's all about. Do they use it for legal purposes? Nintendo looses. Do they use it for piracy? Good luck to the shop owners.

"the evidence of actual use which is made of them by third parties will, in the light of the circumstances at issue, be particularly relevant. The referring court may, in particular, examine how often PC Box’s devices are in fact used in order to allow unauthorised copies of Nintendo and Nintendo-licensed games to be used on Nintendo consoles and how often that equipment is used for purposes which do not infringe copyright in Nintendo and Nintendo-licensed games."


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## Arolandis (Nov 19, 2020)

The only reason I wanted to hack my switch was to get retroarch on it since they canned their freaking virtual console service.
I was happy about their last lawsuit win since I dont want piracy keeping 3rd party devs from making games for the Switch (was happening to PSP), but they need to stop. I dont want their console without emulation and I'm not paying for their shitty online crap.


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## Technicmaster0 (Nov 19, 2020)

Arolandis said:


> The only reason I wanted to hack my switch was to get retroarch on it since they canned their freaking virtual console service.
> I was happy about their last lawsuit win since I dont want piracy keeping 3rd party devs from making games for the Switch (was happening to PSP), but they need to stop. I dont want their console without emulation and I'm not paying for their shitty online crap.


Just a side node: the xbox consoles offer a devmode which can be used to install retroarch on the console (it's a bit limited but the feature is cool nontheless)


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## eyeliner (Nov 19, 2020)

Keep on fighting, brothers.
Piracy gave us Gamepass, All Access and other ways of gaming for relatively small money.


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## Vince77 (Nov 19, 2020)

Anyway they can't stop hacking, like a hydra a new site/method/hacker will be born.


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## Goku1992A (Nov 19, 2020)

@elk1007 
If games was cheap and not still $60 for the last 3 years we wouldn't have as much piracy as we have now. I understand why Nintendo is trying to sue the reseller the RCM loader "enables piracy" only a matter of time before they try to go after atmosphere if they are using that logic 

@eyeliner 
As much as I like game pass I'm slowly shifting away from it. $180 a year you can buy most of the microsoft exclusives for half the price and own the game. I'll still keep Xbox Gold and get it at a discounted price but I rather have ownership versus subscription series


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## MasterJ360 (Nov 19, 2020)

Its not really just piracy, they despise any kind of modification to their software and games also hated homebrew dating back to the Wii. They literally fired some guy months back on Youtube who was working under them just for showcasing BOTW mods lol. This is just them trying to make an excuse effort to purge all exploitable devices. RCM doesn't promote piracy, but it still enables it as a possible end user option, you know behind closed-doors.


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## CTR640 (Nov 19, 2020)

Nintendo, you're the reason people are pirating because your shit is way too expensive.
€349 only for the Switch and the games are absurdly expensive, €60 and I saw there are a shit ton of paid dlc's. And you're way too paranoid you even sued a Super Mario marathon! You simply sue anything and everyone!

I'm so glad I didn't buy the Switch as me and my cousin wanted to buy one and each of us will pay half. But it seems Nintendo doesn't want our money ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## yaykittykitty (Nov 19, 2020)

Next they will be going after people selling jigs. I can understand piracy, not many people can afford many games at £50 each but I don’t partake in such activities I just want to edit my game saves, what’s the crime in that


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## GatoFiestero (Nov 19, 2020)

CTR640 said:


> Nintendo, you're the reason people are pirating because your shit is way too expensive.
> €349 only for the Switch and the games are absurdly expensive, €60 and I saw there are a shit ton of paid dlc's. And you're way too paranoid you even sued a Super Mario marathon! You simply sue anything and everyone!
> 
> I'm so glad I didn't buy the Switch as me and my cousin wanted to buy one and each of us will pay half. But it seems Nintendo doesn't want our money ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



If a person from the Netherlands with a much better standard of living thinks this, imagine what we think in Latin America where everything works like shit and things are even more expensive with inflated prices and low salaries.


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## eyeliner (Nov 19, 2020)

Goku1992A said:


> @eyeliner
> As much as I like game pass I'm slowly shifting away from it. $180 a year you can buy most of the microsoft exclusives for half the price and own the game. I'll still keep Xbox Gold and get it at a discounted price but I rather have ownership versus subscription series


A very fair assessment. It really depends on your mileage. If you like to play everything, it's hard to find a fault in it.
But if you want to keep your library small, sure, purchase games separately is a better approach.


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## Viri (Nov 19, 2020)

elk1007 said:


> Piracy will end when its more convenient to buy a game than to steal it.


Then they need to stop selling ports for 60 dollars, and drop the price of their games like every other company does. Also, if I bought a VC game on the Wii, I should be able to play it on my Switch.


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## CTR640 (Nov 19, 2020)

GatoFiestero said:


> If a person from the Netherlands with a much better standard of living thinks this, imagine what we think in Latin America where everything works like shit and things are even more expensive with inflated prices and low salaries.


True. Nintendo is such a crybaby I totally lost any of my respect to them as they simply go on "pIrAcY iS dAnGeR0uS aNd wE mUsT sUE aNy0ne!!!!!1!1!" bullshit. If piracy was a serious issue, then a lot of businesses would have gone bankrupt. Nintendo keeps using the law as an excuse and chose a country if the winning % is higher than in other country.

Even for Netherlands €60 is too much and so far the prices have been kept the same since day one of release.
Games on other platforms are reduced and or discounted after some time but Nintendo? Holy shit, they are so stubborn!


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## Firexploit (Nov 19, 2020)

"The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It's by giving those people a service that's better than what they're receiving from the pirates." 

-Gabe Newell


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## Subtle Demise (Nov 19, 2020)

Repeal the DMCA


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## Kioku_Dreams (Nov 19, 2020)

It's hard to believe they have a shot at winning this lawsuit.. I sincerely hope they lose.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 19, 2020)

Still got some of the thread to read but curious here.

Most previous times I saw Nintendo act it was when someone sold a chip/dongle/whatever AND a SD card/USB drive full of pirated goodness.


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## eriol33 (Nov 19, 2020)

Worsening international problem how? Nintendo doesn't even have a customer support for anywhere that doesn't have its office. I couldn't even refund my accidental transaction!


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## Anxiety_timmy (Nov 19, 2020)

at this rate nintendo will sue paperclip companies


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## djnate27 (Nov 19, 2020)

CTR640 said:


> Nintendo, you're the reason people are pirating because your shit is way too expensive.
> €349 only for the Switch and the games are absurdly expensive, €60 and I saw there are a shit ton of paid dlc's. And you're way too paranoid you even sued a Super Mario marathon! You simply sue anything and everyone!
> 
> I'm so glad I didn't buy the Switch as me and my cousin wanted to buy one and each of us will pay half. But it seems Nintendo doesn't want our money ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


That's like saying that car manufacturers are to blame for car thefts because cars are too expensive.
"If cars didn't cost so much....people wouldn't have to steal them!"


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## Anxiety_timmy (Nov 19, 2020)

But seriously, This is dumb. Nintendo is really just being unreasonable here. This only allows for modding the console. (common nintendo, is allowing for homebrew or themes REALLY illegal?) I get it for sx cause they had a bank on piracy. At this point someone might sue nintendo.


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## linuxares (Nov 19, 2020)

CTR640 said:


> Nintendo, you're the reason people are pirating because your shit is way too expensive.


I think this is a bit ignorant. Because people mostly pirate because they're too young to be able to afford the game, are a parent who is a cheapskate or just don't wanna buy the games anyway. Then is the lesser "Try before buy" people. It doesn't have to do that the game is expensive or not. Hell, PS5 games will be 70$ right? It's a fucking plastic disc!

If you could pirate properly on the PS4 and Xbox One, people would do it as well. Especially people from poorer countries where a game could cost up to a months' salary.


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## GatoFiestero (Nov 19, 2020)

djnate27 said:


> That's like saying that car manufacturers are to blame for car thefts because cars are too expensive.
> "If cars didn't cost so much....people wouldn't have to steal them!"


But thieves steal the cars to resell them.


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## Lazyboss (Nov 19, 2020)

It's thankfully to RCM loader Nintendo was able to sell so many consoles.


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## MagnesG (Nov 19, 2020)

IDIOT SELLER PROMOTING PIRACY RIGHT ON THE PRODUCT PAGE, COUNTER CLAIMED WHEN CONFRONTED. 

Nintendo never got out of their turf zone. Temp users please use a little bit more of your reading comprehension instead of crying outrage.


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## osirisjem (Nov 19, 2020)

elk1007 said:


> Piracy will end when its more convenient to buy a game than to steal it.



Like music


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## RHOPKINS13 (Nov 19, 2020)

We can literally stop Nintendo dead in their tracks by changing how these devices are sold. What's an "RCM Loader?"

Stop bundling payloads, especially SX OS, as SX OS has keys bundled that are Nintendo's property. Heck, we can even stop bundling Fusée Gelée as long as we have easy-to-follow guides for setting it up.

Then, call it what it is. An Adafruit Trinket with a USB-C plug and lithium-ion battery.

Now how the hell is Nintendo going to file a lawsuit against that?


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## luigirockz (Nov 19, 2020)

Nintendo just trying to scare sellers to stop selling these devices by picking on one with a huge fine. Probably settle out of court


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## subcon959 (Nov 19, 2020)

Maybe they should sue Nvidia for Switch piracy being a thing.


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## Kazeneko7 (Nov 19, 2020)

Piracy would always prevail xD


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## GatoFiestero (Nov 19, 2020)

Kazeneko7 said:


> Piracy would always prevail xD



...although we all go to jail !!

I got a rhyme


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## MagnesG (Nov 19, 2020)

RHOPKINS13 said:


> We can literally stop Nintendo dead in their tracks by changing how these devices are sold. What's an "RCM Loader?"
> 
> Stop bundling payloads, especially SX OS, as SX OS has keys bundled that are Nintendo's property. Heck, we can even stop bundling Fusée Gelée as long as we have easy-to-follow guides for setting it up.
> 
> ...


They won't. Only when it's apparent piracy was in any way blatantly promoted that they move. It's always been like that.


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## spectral (Nov 19, 2020)

subcon959 said:


> Maybe they should sue Nvidia for Switch piracy being a thing.


Never going to happen. Even if they did somehow have some kind of case, which they dont, if Nvidia stopped supplying the Tegra then the switch as a product is dead. They also only target the little guys and Nvidia is way bigger than Nintendo is.


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## Agusto101 (Nov 19, 2020)

Nice try nintendo, it's literally impossible that any kind of piracy or modification are going to be stopped...it's just part of the world at this rate is like trying to normalize lgtb on the world hahaha.


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## Clydefrosch (Nov 19, 2020)

an rcm loader isn't a piracy device or enables piracy the same way emulators aren't and don't.

nvidias shoddy bootrom enables piracy.


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## wormdood (Nov 19, 2020)

It's funny how misinformed people are I read a few post on here saying that Nintendo isn't right for doing this because CFW does not equal piracy but as I've stated many times before and people keep ignoring you can't circumvent anti-piracy measures in place on a device that in itself is illegal  regardless of your intended use (before anyone says apple phones are considered to be computers and as such follow different laws)


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## comput3rus3r (Nov 19, 2020)

If Nintendo ever made a completely secure system it would fail miserably. Do they not know that the exploits on the switch is what makes it so popular?


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## RHOPKINS13 (Nov 19, 2020)

MagnesG said:


> They won't. Only when it's apparent piracy was in any way blatantly promoted that they move. It's always been like that.



Exactly. That's why we need dongles advertised like that. I'm surprised they're even going against the RCM Loader, but as it comes bundled with SX OS at least they can say it has their copyrighted keys on it.

As long as there's a potential, non-infringing use, generally Nintendo stays out of it, at least lawsuit-wise. At least they have in the past.


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## Skelletonike (Nov 19, 2020)

comput3rus3r said:


> If Nintendo ever made a completely secure system it would fail miserably. Do they not know that the exploits on the switch is what makes it so popular?



It isn't. Far from it.


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## PatrickD85 (Nov 19, 2020)

Hmm RCM being available in general is where the fault is located. Not the users who then probe at it.
If they didn't make or leave it a vulnerability well there would not be any issue what so ever for them to circumvent in this regard,
So no, not on board with this one Nintendo.


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## comput3rus3r (Nov 19, 2020)

Skelletonike said:


> It isn't. Far from it.


Says the self proclaimed anti piracy pervert... rofl


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## Darth Meteos (Nov 19, 2020)

yeah, this isn't gonna work
nintendo can't go after people for modifying their devices
they can ban them from their servers, that's their prerogative, but this is overstepping by a lot



comput3rus3r said:


> Says the self proclaimed anti piracy pervert... rofl


i agree that modification of the console attracts some unique buyers, but it's foolhardy to say that it's successful just because of piracy


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## Julie_Pilgrim (Nov 19, 2020)

They aren’t gonna win this


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## osaka35 (Nov 19, 2020)

Did they learn nothing from their failed sueing of galoob?


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## comput3rus3r (Nov 19, 2020)

Darth Meteos said:


> yeah, this isn't gonna work
> nintendo can't go after people for modifying their devices
> they can ban them from their servers, that's their prerogative, but this is overstepping by a lot
> 
> ...


I didn't say just because, but just look at one of the most viewed threads in gbatemp history surpassing almost every other thread of any category and it has to do with sxos/atmos cheats. I wouldn't own 3 switches,  pro controllers and 5 pairs of joycons if there was no CFW on the switch. Obviously the main reason nintendo is popular is it's first party games. but cfw also brings in a lot of attention.
sidenote. screw nintendo for the crappy joycons. 80 dollar price tag for 5 dollar hardware.


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## CTR640 (Nov 19, 2020)

I keep reading Nintendo won't win this and in the past Nintendo lost a case. Can someone enlighten me on this?


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## Darth Meteos (Nov 19, 2020)

comput3rus3r said:


> I didn't say just because, but just look at one of the most viewed threads in gbatemp history surpassing almost every other thread of any category and it has to do with sxos/atmos cheats. I wouldn't own 3 switches,  pro controllers and 5 pairs of joycons if there was no CFW on the switch. Obviously the main reason nintendo is popular is it's first party games. but cfw also brings in a lot of attention.
> sidenote. screw nintendo for the crappy joycons. 80 dollar price tag for 5 dollar hardware.


It is important to note that Switch enthusiasm is greatly increased over previous consoles, and the technologically literate is an expanding group by the year. It was to be expected that a console with such an interesting concept attracted this kind of attention.


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## Rahkeesh (Nov 19, 2020)

mattyxarope said:


> I can't even imagine these posing a problem to Nintendo - what's the percentage of people that have V1 switches anyway??



~20 million minus ipatched so maybe 25%. Most of them aren't hacked but there is in fact a ton of them out there.


----------



## godreborn (Nov 19, 2020)

well, Nintendo why don't you actually add some things to your os that actually creates an incentive to update and go legit (i.e. achievements, which some people like).  I would try syncing them on official firmware if you're using cfw or whatever, so at least that's something.  Nintendo, you're just being fucking lazy this gen.  lack of features, constant ports, etc.  at least do something!


----------



## Rahkeesh (Nov 19, 2020)

comput3rus3r said:


> I didn't say just because, but just look at one of the most viewed threads in gbatemp history surpassing almost every other thread of any category and it has to do with sxos/atmos cheats. I wouldn't own 3 switches,  pro controllers and 5 pairs of joycons if there was no CFW on the switch. Obviously the main reason nintendo is popular is it's first party games. but cfw also brings in a lot of attention.
> sidenote. screw nintendo for the crappy joycons. 80 dollar price tag for 5 dollar hardware.



GBATemp is 90% about console hacking, it shouldn't be surprising that popular threads here involve that. It is in no way representative of the market.

The real evidence is that the V2 Switch continues to break sales records and most people can barely buy let alone install the thing that makes CFW work on them. The scene here is extremely small compared to the normies that make Switch a success.


----------



## godreborn (Nov 19, 2020)

funny thing is that some people are not legit due to the bs going with save files.  I wouldn't be legit myself if not for cloud saving, but quite honestly, I don't have a lot of faith in that system sticking around.  I've already lost all saves once, because my NAND got corrupted and I wasn't a member of nso yet.  that sort of thing does piss me off.


----------



## Clydefrosch (Nov 19, 2020)

wormdood said:


> It's funny how misinformed people are I read a few post on here saying that Nintendo isn't right for doing this because CFW does not equal piracy but as I've stated many times before and people keep ignoring you can't circumvent anti-piracy measures in place on a device that in itself is illegal  regardless of your intended use (before anyone says apple phones are considered to be computers and as such follow different laws)



by my countries legislation, if an anti-piracy measure can be circumvented (and easily so), it inherently stops being an anti-piracy measure


----------



## raxadian (Nov 19, 2020)

No matter what side you are in, selling a device specifically made to hack a console in Amazon?

How come Amazon isn't getting sued to?


----------



## templeofhylia (Nov 19, 2020)

i'll care when their $90 controllers stop drifting after mere weeks of usage.


----------



## shulkmad (Nov 19, 2020)

wormdood said:


> It's funny how misinformed people are I read a few post on here saying that Nintendo isn't right for doing this because CFW does not equal piracy but as I've stated many times before and people keep ignoring you can't circumvent anti-piracy measures in place on a device that in itself is illegal  regardless of your intended use (before anyone says apple phones are considered to be computers and as such follow different laws)



this is the only post in this entire thread that understands how the DMCA law works. glad atleast some people understand how it works


----------



## Kubas_inko (Nov 19, 2020)

Technicmaster0 said:


> According to the eugh ruling I linked on the second page, the courts have to check what the device is beeing used for (that can go as far as to check the actual customers) and that's what it's all about. Do they use it for legal purposes? Nintendo looses. Do they use it for piracy? Good luck to the shop owners.


So ninty can actually sue paper clip manufacturers. noice /s


----------



## godreborn (Nov 19, 2020)

Nintendo is on a lawsuit binge like sony was when the bad security of the ps3 made them look stupid.


----------



## godreborn (Nov 19, 2020)

maybe legit users like me should file a class-action lawsuit against Nintendo for not caring about legit users.  constant lawsuits against piracy devices, not adding anything new to the os of the switch.  I can tell you that's not what I expected from Nintendo.  I didn't expect the os to be even more laughable than the wii u's.  I think I'm going to go with playstation next time because of this.


----------



## Technicmaster0 (Nov 19, 2020)

Kubas_inko said:


> So ninty can actually sue paper clip manufacturers. noice /s


only if the paperclips are mainly used by pirates


----------



## smf (Nov 19, 2020)

BlastedGuy9905 said:


> Well, in my opinion, Ninty isn't correct this time, since SX actually promoted piracy.. This just lets you modify your console, which doesn't mean piracy. They'll still probably win the case...



To be fair to Nintendo the law is on their side.



dragonmaster said:


> i want them to try this on european court
> if they were ever serious they would not have released joycons with this drift problem



Which country? They had success suing DS cart sellers a few years back.



ELY_M said:


> This PISSED ME OFF!!!!!!    RCM Loader devices DO NOT help you with piracy at all        they are IDIOTS!!!!!!



What do you mean "at all"? That is like saying guns don't kill people, it's the bullets that kill people.



ELY_M said:


> if the judges in the court are smart.  they will not let this lawsuit win and toss that case out.



I think it will come down to their understanding of the law, I kinda like Nintendo's chances.



Kubas_inko said:


> So ninty can actually sue paper clip manufacturers. noice /s



I'm not sure about the paper clip as that only puts the device into RCM mode. I believe fusee gelee and sept are problematic though.


----------



## godreborn (Nov 19, 2020)

I honestly don't get why Nintendo can't combat piracy and offer new features at the same time.  Sony does it pretty well.  Nintendo is not going to have any fans if they keep suing people while neglecting their fanbase.  at this point, I will not buy a Switch 2.  and, I own 133 switch games.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

who cares if your security sucks.  you're still making a lot more than the competition.  NIntendo simply doesn't care about their fans, otherwise we'd have a lot more features with the switch.  if you're going to bitch about your bad security, actually hire people who know what they're doing.


----------



## LuxerWap (Nov 19, 2020)

This is Nintendo we’re talking about. They company who took down ROM sites, made the Project M devs panic and stop working on the mod, who took down Mario fanmade games, AM2R, Pokemon Uranium and Prism.

Nintendo is doing Nintendo stuff and I am okay with it. They have legal rights to take it down cause it’s using tools on their IP. We have this discussion over and over again, and people still think this is new.


----------



## leerpsp (Nov 19, 2020)

well iv not used my hacked switch in over a year besides animal crossing hacks and iv stopped using that for a good long wile and I buy all my games anyway and because of that I'm gonna sell my hacked switch. I will prob end up with another one but I really want to use the money to buy a quest 2.


----------



## smf (Nov 19, 2020)

godreborn said:


> who cares if your security sucks.  you're still making a lot more than the competition.  NIntendo simply doesn't care about their fans, otherwise we'd have a lot more features with the switch.  if you're going to bitch about your bad security, actually hire people who know what they're doing.



So it's ok to steal from rich people?


----------



## godreborn (Nov 19, 2020)

smf said:


> So it's ok to steal from rich people?



where did you get that from?


----------



## the_randomizer (Nov 20, 2020)

Lol piracy becoming a worsening international problem, since when?


----------



## chrisrlink (Nov 20, 2020)

this only makes me angrier and do 100% piracy I'm acctually happy the leaks keep comming TAKE IT AND F YOU NINTENDO


----------



## JeepX87 (Nov 20, 2020)

Nintendo, you need to get over it and that's not goddamn piracy device.


----------



## comput3rus3r (Nov 20, 2020)

chrisrlink said:


> this only makes me angrier and do 100% piracy I'm acctually happy the leaks keep comming TAKE IT AND F YOU NINTENDO


your tag would be more accurate if it said "they're putting thermite and using planes as the ignition"


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Nov 20, 2020)

smf said:


> So it's ok to steal from rich people?


Yes, all the way yes


----------



## bobmcjr (Nov 20, 2020)

The anti-circumvention clause is some of the most vague anti-consumer bullshit, would be nice if that line item got repealed outright. I honestly can't think of a single downside to repealing it besides large corporations and the RIAA whining more than usual. It always seems to contradict the "you are permitted to make one backup" clause anyway, unless you have a 100% pure software solution in which case it's ok for some reason?

In the case of Nintendo, either fix your security or fix your outright service problem that causes people to turn to things like this in the first place. Or go the Xbox One dev mode route and make your security so competent that you feel comfortable opening up the device.


If Nintendo put half of their legal budget into actual security experts, this probably wouldn't even be an issue.



Edit:
At this point, I think Nintendo is arguably a greater evil than Disney, which is not an easy feat. At least Disney doesn't really dabble in the nuances of hardware themselves. Both companies' IP are greatly overvalued and both play obnoxious games in the process of releasing it, but Nintendo is on another level these days. I am genuinely curious about the budget allocations and staffing numbers of their legal departments, but I feel like it would just be depressing.


----------



## Technicmaster0 (Nov 20, 2020)

bobmcjr said:


> The anti-circumvention clause is some of the most vague anti-consumer bullshit, would be nice if that line item got repealed outright. I honestly can't think of a single downside to repealing it besides large corporations and the RIAA whining more than usual. It always seems to contradict the "you are permitted to make one backup" clause anyway, unless you have a 100% pure software solution in which case it's ok for some reason?


The one backup rule is for computer programs. Games are protected by both aspects: the computer program and the creative work (music, pictures etc). You are probably permitted to backup the system settings or the eshop but not the actual games.


----------



## bobmcjr (Nov 20, 2020)

Technicmaster0 said:


> The one backup rule is for computer programs. Games are protected by both aspects: the computer program and the creative work (music, pictures etc). You are probably permitted to backup the system settings or the eshop but not the actual games.



No, games are absolutely 100% "computer programs". Nintendo even admitted that the "one backup" exemption applies to their games: "The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic"

(they finally got rid of this god awful page as far as I can tell, so I had to grab it on Wayback: http://web.archive.org/web/20190206234131/https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom )

Think of it this way. Nintendo would've fucked emulation projects years ago if the backups used on them could not be obtained illegally by any means. CDs and DVDs are also explicitly permitted to be backed up.


----------



## Skelletonike (Nov 20, 2020)

comput3rus3r said:


> Says the self proclaimed anti piracy pervert... rofl



Indeed, I am in fact against piracy (because when I was a teenager I pirated too much). 
Point remains that most people, do not buy them for CFW or piracy. If things were really that bad, switch games wouldn't be selling like hotcakes, despite their abusive price.


----------



## White_Raven_X (Nov 20, 2020)

https://www.polygon.com/platform/am.../nintendo-rcm-loader-jailbreak-lawsuit-switch

Just ridiculous!

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020...ourt-to-stop-sale-of-new-switch-hacking-tech/


----------



## smf (Nov 20, 2020)

godreborn said:


> where did you get that from?



"who cares if your security sucks. you're still making a lot more than the competition"

You're saying it's ok to steal from people who make a lot of money.



Scott_pilgrim said:


> Yes, all the way yes



Do you think your opinion would change when people with less money than you, steal your money?



bobmcjr said:


> No, games are absolutely 100% "computer programs". Nintendo even admitted that the "one backup" exemption applies to their games: "The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic"



While you are allowed to make a backup, it's still illegal to sell something that allows you to make the backup usable.


----------



## Bladexdsl (Nov 20, 2020)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> They aren’t gonna win this


people said that about team X and look what happened. fuck off nintapple!


----------



## DaveLister (Nov 20, 2020)

mattyxarope said:


> I can't even imagine these posing a problem to Nintendo - what's the percentage of people that have V1 switches anyway??


I think its about 20 million units vulnerable until Mariko


----------



## bubolechka (Nov 20, 2020)

Here is a quote from another forum (Polygon) by "By IndigoAK" , which totally match my personal view...

"Between Nintendo’s increasingly heavy-handed tactics towards Switch mods, their ridiculous faux-digital scarcity bullshit and the fact that their games never drop in price until the successor console is on the shelves, they’re quickly becoming one of my most disliked companies in the industry."

Also I can add that, I'm not only starting to dislike Nintendo, but even more....I feel like I'm starting to hate Nintendo as a company at all...
And finally I have a very simple and straightforward question : What is the percentage of "hacked" Nintendo Switch consoles from all 68.3 million sold units worldwide ? 1% ?!? 2% ?!? (insert Twitch NotLikeThat emote here) .... F you GREEDY Nintendo ! F U !


----------



## bobmcjr (Nov 20, 2020)

smf said:


> While you are allowed to make a backup, it's still illegal to sell something that allows you to make the backup usable.


Nope. Emulators that cost money exist and haven't been killed by Nintendo. Nothing against making the backup usable under the Section 117 and DMCA Section 103f exemptions, especially under DMCA 103f's explicit "interoperability" statement.


----------



## smf (Nov 20, 2020)

bobmcjr said:


> Nope. Emulators that cost money exist and haven't been killed by Nintendo. Nothing against making the backup usable under the Section 117 and DMCA Section 103f exemptions, especially under DMCA 103f's explicit "interoperability" statement.



Interoperability isn't for backups of games. It's for transferring information between programs.

_(f) Reverse Engineering.— (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title. (3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section. (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term "interoperability" means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged._

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbre...yright-office-right-to-repair-dcma-exemptions

_Under section 1201 of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), it is “unlawful to circumvent technological measures used to prevent unauthorized access to copyrighted works.”_

As modifying a console to play backups circumvents technological measures used to prevent unauthorized access to copyrighted works as well, it is not lawful. The Copyright Office grants exemptions to 1201 and people have repeatedly asked for consoles to be exempted and they have been turned down.

fusee gelee and sept also circumvent technological measures.


----------



## bobmcjr (Nov 20, 2020)

smf said:


> Interoperability isn't for backups of games. It's for transferring information between programs.


And is there a precedent that says it isn't? Nintendo has already established that their games are computer programs. Everything is information, and emulators translate console-language computer program information to PC-language computer program information. Nintendo would've already killed every emulation project ever if this weren't the case.


----------



## smf (Nov 20, 2020)

bobmcjr said:


> And is there a precedent that says it isn't?



I don't think anyone has made that argument in court, so there isn't a precedent either way.

But the language is quite explicit in saying it is to allow you to reverse engineer something for interoperability between two programs. Using a backup doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.

_a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program *for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs*, 
_
Until you can get a ruling that the "sole purpose" also includes playing a backup of your game then I will disagree with you.



bobmcjr said:


> Nintendo would've already killed every emulation project ever if this weren't the case.



How would they? For a start you're going to start playing whack a mole, emulators can just pop up elsewhere and it would be difficult to find them let alone try to launch a legal battle. Nintendo weren't even going after rom sites until they started charging money for access. Which changes things quite a lot.

I also don't think people running emulators are lost sales for Nintendo, they are more interested in people who want all the benefits of a switch but with a commercial hack that makes playing illegally downliaded games super easy.


----------



## the_randomizer (Nov 20, 2020)

Bladexdsl said:


> people said that about team X and look what happened. fuck off nintapple!



Sheesh, calm the hell down, dude. Lay off the Xanax or something and take a break from the internet instead of being conceited?



bobmcjr said:


> And is there a precedent that says it isn't? Nintendo has already established that their games are computer programs. Everything is information, and emulators translate console-language computer program information to PC-language computer program information. Nintendo would've already killed every emulation project ever if this weren't the case.


 
Which is funny, because Nintendo uses emulators on their NSO


----------



## bobmcjr (Nov 20, 2020)

smf said:


> I don't think anyone has made that argument in court, so there isn't a precedent either way.
> 
> But the language is quite explicit in saying it is to allow you to reverse engineer something for interoperability between two programs. Using a backup doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.
> 
> _a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program *for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs*, _



Nobody has ever argued that an archival/backup copy cannot be used in place of the original. There is no language in in Section 117 that explicitly disallows the use of the backup. Its general interpretation has always been that you make the backup so if the original becomes unusable or destroyed while in your possession, you can use the backup in its place. Nothing is wrong with analyzing the backup, especially when analyzing the original isn't really possible.



smf said:


> How would they? For a start you're going to start playing whack a mole, emulators can just pop up elsewhere and it would be difficult to find them let alone try to launch a legal battle. Nintendo weren't even going after rom sites until they started charging money for access. Which changes things quite a lot.



Modern emulators would be extremely easy targets to disrupt and limit their usage/development. GitHub, Discord, etc are extremely responsive to DMCA requests, and I'd imagine Atlassian is too. Many emulator developers would likely abandon their respective projects if they suddenly became illegal, which seems like an outcome Nintendo would like. If Nintendo could legally take down or disrupt Yuzu by any means, they absolutely would. The fact that the Switch is current gen combined with Yuzu's current Patreon numbers would make them a large target _if Nintendo had any legal grounds to do anything_. Of course, Bleem has established unauthorized emulation as legal in the general case, and it has not been legally challenged since then, but if there were some other copyright takedown/lawsuit avenue Nintendo could approach, they would've found it. Their OS security guys may not be the most competent, but their lawyers are.


----------



## chrisrlink (Nov 20, 2020)

sad it's only nintendo that does this shit (MS gave us dev kit mode on the one/ SX/S (and to this day no piracy enabling hacks on either console) and sony now allows via hacker one to allow devs to release the exploits after their patched, a complete 180 from the ps3 days) and hell sega allows people to use their ip's to make video games and even partner with them  I wish nintendo would "get with it already"and realizing opening up their consoles to an extent would reduce the chance for piracy it's a no brainer


----------



## TheGodMauro (Nov 20, 2020)

The seller dealt with SX products, honestly it's entirely on him that he got sued if he didn't see the writing on the wall after the lawsuit back in May.

Video game developers (Or any digital media distributors really) have every reason to be scared shitless of piracy, because people will always gravitate to the most convenient option. 

Let's look at an example of another industry that was driven to the ground, music. Album sales started dropping exponentially after people discovered that you could download the songs they wanted freely from the web, to answer to that, record companies had to offer their catalogues via streaming services in a way that was even more convenient than what was before. The trade off?, musicians make almost nothing from streams and need to tour nonstop in order to make a living, because for most people nowadays, buying music is a ridiculous concept.

Before I continue on that line I'd like to reiterate a point, convenience. The seller provided, and even promoted on the article, a convenient way to pirate games, that's why he's getting sued. Big N isn't going to go about and sue every RCM jig out there, they don't need to. What they likely want is to discourage people from offering convenient ways for people to pirate their content, you need to remember that gbatemp users are but an minuscule percentage of the switch's userbase, and that your everyday John isn't going to bother with reading about payloads, jigs, cfws, or sigpatches, he just wants to wind down after a day of work and enjoy some entertainment. If buying the game through the eshop is the most convenient way, he will use that.


----------



## Technicmaster0 (Nov 20, 2020)

bobmcjr said:


> No, games are absolutely 100% "computer programs". Nintendo even admitted that the "one backup" exemption applies to their games: "The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic"
> 
> (they finally got rid of this god awful page as far as I can tell, so I had to grab it on Wayback: http://web.archive.org/web/20190206234131/https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom )
> 
> Think of it this way. Nintendo would've fucked emulation projects years ago if the backups used on them could not be obtained illegally by any means. CDs and DVDs are also explicitly permitted to be backed up.


Hmm. I understand the eugh ruling kind of differently.
"The referring court considers that the protection of videogames cannot be reduced to that provided for computer programs. Indeed, although videogames take their functionality from a computer program, they begin and progress following a narrated predetermined route by the authors of those games in a way to make a group of images and sounds appear together with some conceptual autonomy."
http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=146686&doclang=EN

Keep in mind that the seller is from europe, not the us.


----------



## xdarkmario (Nov 21, 2020)

Let me fix this article's headline for you

*"Nintendo is a worsening international problem"*

i have lost so much respect in nintendo lately, from shutting down fan projects to entire tournaments. they throw many C&D orders its no wonder they dont have the money to work on games. when we use emulators we are the DEVIL but when when they SELL us emulators with a community ROM its business.


----------



## the_randomizer (Nov 21, 2020)

Now I feel even less guilty for finding and downloading ROM sets  Suck it, Nintendo.


----------



## gregory-samba (Nov 21, 2020)

Triggering the Switch into RCM mode and injecting code to bypass security mechanisms is exactly what RCM loaders allow you to do and the CFW, be it Atmosphere or SX OS are part of that equation. In the USA bypassing copyright mechanisms, which is what you do when you boot into Hekate or Atmosphere, regardless if you're pirating games is still illegal. Nintendo has all the right to file this lawsuit and will most likely win in or out of court.


----------



## Julie_Pilgrim (Nov 21, 2020)

smf said:


> Do you think your opinion would change when people with less money than you, steal your money?


Bruh did you just compare me taking $60 from a billion dollar company to some guy taking money from a 13 year old


----------



## the_randomizer (Nov 21, 2020)

Scott_pilgrim said:


> Bruh did you just compare me taking $60 from a billion dollar company to some guy taking money from a 13 year old



Forget him, somebody lit the fuse on his tampon this morning


----------



## jimbo13 (Nov 21, 2020)

When tossing around provision of DMCA you also need to consider the DMCA and Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act are in contradiction to each other and it has never been adjudicated.  The DMCA says a lot of things are illegal that the Magnuson Moss act says are legal.   It hasn't been to trial because neither side wants to risk losing.   

 A RCM jig is no different than a proprietary screw driver, Nintendo should lose this one.


----------



## MetoMeto (Nov 21, 2020)

"serious, worsening international problem" did they ever thought of why that is?
I mean can they (gaming companies) be more greedy and releasing same old titles asking for more money
and never addressing issues and such?

In my eyes those companies such as Nintendo and others dug their own grave and are just trying to get out of the hole,
they are not doing anything noble here. Simple survival instinct.

Simply adressing issue of stupid thing as drifting joycons would be good step in right direction instead being dicks.
Im not sorry for any company having their consoles hacked and similar things. They deserve it tbh.


You can reply what you wish or thing, but pirates are real heroes here!

If a company dies because of pirates it will be because they are shitty, greedy company anyway, 
doing for pure money love. I mean you can tell by amount of remakes and unoriginal things they pump how little they care. You dont need to be a genious to see it.


----------



## MeAndHax (Nov 21, 2020)

TheGodMauro said:


> The seller dealt with SX products, honestly it's entirely on him that he got sued if he didn't see the writing on the wall after the lawsuit back in May.
> 
> Video game developers (Or any digital media distributors really) have every reason to be scared shitless of piracy, because people will always gravitate to the most convenient option.
> 
> ...


So ur basically just whining because the world has progressed and it’s the “streaming” that destroys the music industry and ur not going to mention that now it’s way easier to create music and every hood has like 4 local rappers?


----------



## Legendaykai (Nov 21, 2020)

Come on Nintendo step your game up I may work with you sometimes for events and upcoming content as a tester but you need to be more strict on how  your software is hacked.


----------



## LuxerWap (Nov 21, 2020)

Do people not realize that SX leads to piracy? Same goes for CFW on the 3DS. I don’t get why everyone denies it when it’s been proven over and over. Nintendo isn’t dumb, and they are willing to do anything to take piracy down.


----------



## regnad (Nov 21, 2020)

BlastedGuy9905 said:


> Well, in my opinion, Ninty isn't correct this time, since SX actually promoted piracy.. This just lets you modify your console, which doesn't mean piracy. They'll still probably win the case...



Well, in MY opinion the Jedi are evil!


----------



## smf (Nov 21, 2020)

the_randomizer said:


> Forget him, somebody lit the fuse on his tampon this morning



What is wrong with you?



regnad said:


> Well, in MY opinion the Jedi are evil!


----------



## CTR640 (Nov 21, 2020)

MetoMeto said:


> "serious, worsening international problem" did they ever thought of why that is?
> I mean can they (gaming companies) be more greedy and releasing same old titles asking for more money
> and never addressing issues and such?
> 
> ...


Like EA did to NFS Hot Pursuit 2010 Remastered. That shit looks worse than original, all they did is cranking up contrast and call it a day. Look at what kind of absurd prices they're asking. The original looks so much better too.


----------



## godreborn (Nov 21, 2020)

CTR640 said:


> Like EA did to NFS Hot Pursuit 2010 Remastered. That shit looks worse than original, all they did is cranking up contrast and call it a day. Look at what kind of absurd prices they're asking. The original looks so much better too.



didn't sony say that digital versions of ps4 games (that were bought on the ps4) would be downloadable and playable on the ps5?  at least sony does that for you.  Nintendo makes you rebuy everything every generation and doesn't even blink an eye.


----------



## dangopig (Nov 21, 2020)

It must be nice to have so much money to throw at lawsuits


----------



## CTR640 (Nov 21, 2020)

godreborn said:


> didn't sony say that digital versions of ps4 games (that were bought on the ps4) would be downloadable and playable on the ps5?  at least sony does that for you.  Nintendo makes you rebuy everything every generation and doesn't even blink an eye.


Funny story because for my use case, the PSVita is a much better device for me than the Switch because the PSVita has a built-in mediaplayer to playback mp4 files. The Switch doesn't have any built-in app for that as far as I'm concerned. Nintendo is next-level incomprehensible. Sony has some stupid logics too but not as worst as Nintendo.


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## godreborn (Nov 21, 2020)

I'm afraid there may not be much more introduced to the switch os.  Nintendo said at a conference in Japan that their idea behind Ozone was speed and simplicity.  that really kinda pisses me off as a legit user.  I really don't care about pirates do to the system, but that's the only people Nintendo ever seems to care about.

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at least sony combats pirates and adds things.  nintendo can't walk and chew gum at the same time.


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## TheGodMauro (Nov 22, 2020)

MeAndHax said:


> So ur basically just whining because the world has progressed and it’s the “streaming” that destroys the music industry and ur not going to mention that now it’s way easier to create music and every hood has like 4 local rappers?



I really struggled, but I cannot see what point you're trying to prove here. Here's my 2 cents:

1) Musicians used to make a lot by album sales, but as soon as people got used to the idea that you don't need to pay for music, their revenue shrunk considerably. That ain't whining, I'm just stating a fact.

2) Of course it's easier to make and release music nowadays, but you're missing my point entirely. My argument isn't about the 'Destruction of the music industry' or even about streaming. I pointed out the music industry because it's a real example of what happens if you let an easy way available for people to not pay for your products.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Nov 22, 2020)

TheGodMauro said:


> I really struggled, but I cannot see what point you're trying to prove here. Here's my 2 cents:
> 
> 1) Musicians used to make a lot by album sales, but as soon as people got used to the idea that you don't need to pay for music, their revenue shrunk considerably. That ain't whining, I'm just stating a fact.
> 
> 2) Of course it's easier to make and release music nowadays, but you're missing my point entirely. My argument isn't about the 'Destruction of the music industry' or even about streaming. I pointed out the music industry because it's a real example of what happens if you let an easy way available for people to not pay for your products.


The artists didn't make the money from record/album sales. Their label did. Big, BIG difference.


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## TheGodMauro (Nov 22, 2020)

Memoir said:


> The artists didn't make the money from record/album sales. Their label did. Big, BIG difference.



So, the same as nowadays, where they get paid from royalties based on sales?. Unless you mean that every band/artist out there in 2020 is indie and keeps their full royalties.

I was going to keep on that tangent but honestly I repeat that it is straying from my point. If you let people have an easy way to consume content without paying, then a big share of the market wont.

And that my dudes is the point I'm trying to convey, no company wants to run a business where it's source of income is jeopardized, and they have every right to defend it and sue anyone that endangers it.

You as a consumer, do not, have the right to steal from them, but you are realistically free to do so as long as you don't get caught.


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## ack (Nov 22, 2020)

CompSciOrBust said:


> It's probably high. I think the real question is how many people with V1 switches are willing to hack it who haven't already hacked it.


me... so the count's 1 at least

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smf said:


> I don't think anyone has made that argument in court, so there isn't a precedent either way.
> 
> But the language is quite explicit in saying it is to allow you to reverse engineer something for interoperability between two programs. Using a backup doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.
> 
> ...


They dont do it because they would lose and they know that. That precedent was set a long time ago when sony sued bleem and lost.


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## Deleted member 397813 (Nov 22, 2020)

wait until nintendo starts to sue staples for selling paper clips lmao


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## mattyxarope (Nov 22, 2020)

CPG said:


> wait until nintendo starts to sue staples for selling paper clips lmao



Finally, someone willing to take on Big Paperclip


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## smf (Nov 22, 2020)

ack said:


> They dont do it because they would lose and they know that. That precedent was set a long time ago when sony sued bleem and lost.



There was no DMCA violation as PS1 didn't have DRM to bypass.

Switch emulators would be more like DeCSS case.

As Nintendo are successfully using the DMCA (and world wide equivalents) in court to go after modchips/flash carts then there is some possibility that they could win.


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## weatMod (Nov 23, 2020)

elk1007 said:


> Piracy will end when its more convenient to buy a game than to steal it.


file sharing isn't stealing though


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## DSAndi (Nov 24, 2020)

Actually i dont really care about Nintendo. I dont buy anything from em and i also dont buy other consoles aswell.

I think that dumping or create images from games is actually good. Many games would have been lost, without thouse ppl that did preserve them.

I dont see any real problem with old games. Money has been made with them, why not allow ppl to use them after 10,15 or 20 years ? Company can still bring out Hardware with old games on and make money. 

For new games its different, i can see the problem there. 
However i would not say piracy harms the company that bad. There are different types of people. 
Some people would not buy a game anyway, but they buy hardware to play the pirated games.
Some people would just use the downloaded games to test the games and most likely would buy it later.
Some ppl would just buy games, because they dont know about other options, are collectors or whatever reason.

As for me on PC you get a lot free games legally. Epic has good games every week, Steam and GOG has often free games, Humble Bundle has often fee stuff even publishers give away games.
Basicly i dont need to buy a game on PC or just wait untill its cheap. I get so many games free that i cant even play them all.

Then there is game streaming now, Geforce now, Stadia and some others, so you can play games for little money and on small priced hardware.


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## smf (Nov 24, 2020)

DSAndi said:


> However i would not say piracy harms the company that bad. There are different types of people.
> Some people would not buy a game anyway, but they buy hardware to play the pirated games.
> Some people would just use the downloaded games to test the games and most likely would buy it later.
> Some ppl would just buy games, because they dont know about other options, are collectors or whatever reason.



What about the people who move from buying games to not buying games? Those people do exist.

I think the games market is large enough that you don't get the same situation as the 80's/90's where everyone might have a game, but they only sold 50 copies. However the market is large enough that it costs millions of pounds to produce a game these days.


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## Deleted member 532471 (Nov 24, 2020)

yeah nintendo, you keep telling yourself that
nowadays most people are brand's pets so i'm sure some poor sap is going to fall for it.

i would pirate even the joycon if i could, then at least i would be able to actually play the games on my switch and have fun instead of having to wrestle the characters on where to go as they repeatedly kill themselves


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## Deleted member 532471 (Nov 24, 2020)

DSAndi said:


> Actually i dont really care about Nintendo. I dont buy anything from em and i also dont buy other consoles aswell.
> 
> I think that dumping or create images from games is actually good. Many games would have been lost, without thouse ppl that did preserve them.
> 
> ...




you just dont care about consoles because you have a pc that's strong enough to emulate most of them
for fools who avoid roms and instead give them 10 dollars for 30 year old shovelware its not so simple

developers, publishers, game ppl want any money that there is to be had with anything they own
it's said that one of the reasons the nintendo's online service nes and snes game selection is so lacking is because no one wants to let their games be there for free ( so starting next fiscal year they will sell retro games individually again )

so for the things you said, 
-just buying the hardware is not enough, 3rd parties dont get money that way
-thats why they make demos, even if the demo usually fails terribly to represent the game, but they dont want you to try it any other way
-as long as people buy games, they dont care about the reason, thats why they allow scalpers to exist ( and may or may not partake in such activities )

geforce now and stadia are terrible, you never own the game you bought and its going to poof in 2 or 3 years ( granted that for a while now physical games and download have had a clause saying you own nothing, but still, at least you still have them and can play whenever )
these services might be of decent quality in germany, but in most of the world they are plain terrible, an unplayable mess.

you seem like a nice person, but your comment came off kinda like an ad
stay safe


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