# So, uh... the gas prices



## City (Aug 26, 2022)

Unless the government will do something about it, my parents will be expected to pay tens of thousands of dollars for this winter's gas bill, if they keep the same (low) consumption they had the previous year.

Isn't this a...big fucking problem? I will have to let my parents sleep at my place and that's going to suck because they're grade A cunts, but what about the people who don't have this option? Surely no one is going to expect people to actually pay those prices for the gas bill, so what's going to happen?


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## lolcatzuru (Aug 26, 2022)

City said:


> Unless the government will do something about it, my parents will be expected to pay tens of thousands of dollars for this winter's gas bill, if they keep the same (low) consumption they had the previous year.
> 
> Isn't this a...big fucking problem? I will have to let my parents sleep at my place and that's going to suck because they're grade A cunts, but what about the people who don't have this option? Surely no one is going to expect people to actually pay those prices for the gas bill, so what's going to happen?



WEll it depends on what version of the truth you want... if you want the alternative truth you can pick from one of a few options below.

1. Somehow, months later, the war the in ukraine is still affecting gas prcies
2. Opec is still trying to recoup their losses from the pandemic, which is somehow our problem.
3.orange man bad.
4.nobody wants to work.

or you can pick the actual truth, which is that brandon and his continuance see you as a walking talking piggybank and dont give a flying F what happens to you, similarly, they are probably concerned their " free and fair election" isnt gonna work a second time and they are loading up on money for adrenachrome now.

the truth of the matter is sadly, we live in a society largely based on feelings, and feelings are what got brandon in in the first place, and thus leading to these problems, and when you bring this up... yes, they'd rather suffer than see mean tweets.


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## realtimesave (Aug 26, 2022)

I noticed it has kept a lot of dickheads off the road that road rage and tailgate, that's the only positive thing that has come of it.  And I agree they are recouping for the pandemic but at the same time they find out that they can price gouge and make even more moneys.  Thank OPEC and Saudi Arabia.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 26, 2022)

Appears to be a bit of a mix up between natural gas (heating, cooking, industry) and what Americans call gas and many others would call petrol. That said many of the same problems.

Rock and hard place for a lot of this.

Price caps is a dubious thing to do when you claim free market is a thing you like, and if it means losses for the companies providing it (quite possible) then they will limit supply to limit the losses.

Limiting supply also means you can fulfil your hippy nonsense agenda (we cut our usage/emissions by a 0.05% of China and/or India, or some more notable percentage if just going for same country year on year/decade on decade). Though I am seeing moves to have them classify gas as green energy which is hilarious. Hopefully we get more nuclear power, but lead times on those is years at best and probably decades if doing small nuclear batteries and Thorium. It also seems to be changing some attitudes towards building preservation (for years trying to get double glazing installed on any kind of listed building was a nightmare).
Lead times on gas exploration are also measured in years and hundreds of millions in investment and unlikely to do much if said same hippy agenda will shutter it before it turns a profit.

Old people freezing to death is bad optics, also saves on pensions and medical care (if you can't survive some cold you are probably expensive on the medical side of things), not to mention old people are the only ones that vote. Have to try to figure out acceptable levels of deaths for optics, inflection point for dropping your medical bills, preferably engineer it such that it is not your voters that die off in winter but those of your opponent(s) and hope nobody leaks any of those numbers/plans.

Surprised to see energy come to the fore as well as a limiting factor -- I thought water would probably be what we saw next, though energy was always on the cards. Wonder where the apologies to Putin tour and additional ball fondling session will happen.

About the only thing I wonder about is whether we will see olds bundled into various public buildings (cheaper to heat such things, indeed de facto version of that already existed in pubs in various villages that also figured out cost effective meals but most of those are long since gone) or government provided/subsidised electric blankets (heating house is hard, heating person on a sofa or in bed to at least not die is easier).


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## City (Aug 26, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> Appears to be a bit of a mix up between natural gas (heating, cooking, industry) and what Americans call gas and many others would call petrol. That said many of the same problems.


Yeah I should have used better phrasing lol


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## KingVamp (Aug 27, 2022)

Funny, because it is the Republicans that are blocking gas bills meant for lowering cost.


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## Nothereed (Aug 27, 2022)

Ontop of the fact that there is no limits to how much said companies can charge. As they made record breaking profits.


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## SScorpio (Aug 28, 2022)

Don't worry the inflation reduction act that was recently passed which is a bunch of graft and handouts that will increase inflation has tax rebates to move you to heat pump-based heating systems.

This in theory is good as heat pumps are very efficient, which is right up to just a little below freezing.  Then heating your house will use roughly the same electricity as cooling your house to 68F in 95F summer temps all winter long.

Never mind putting even more load on our electrical grids as more people move to electric cars with the additional funding from the bill. Power outages will just mean you don't have any heat, nor the ability to drive anywhere, everything will be fine.


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## AlexMCS (Aug 28, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> Hopefully we get more nuclear power,


GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.

I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.

We should have ditched petrol as a power source for decades as of now.


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## Xzi (Aug 28, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Power outages will just mean you don't have any heat, nor the ability to drive anywhere, everything will be fine.


Power outages aren't a common occurrence except where shady privatized utility companies have a monopoly (Texas).  And I'm not sure if you're just ignorant or purposefully spouting lies about outages that suddenly and fully discharge your electric vehicle's battery.  Either way though, some electric vehicles (trucks mostly) are even being advertised as a way to power your home during such outages.

The most hilarious thing about this thread has to be Republicans pretending like Trump did anything at all to regulate corporate greed and profiteering during his time in office.  Or that he'd be doing anything at all about it now.  The guy would let you defile his mother's corpse for the right price.  Both candidates/parties were and always have been capitalist, I'm sorry to say.


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## Xzi (Aug 28, 2022)

AlexMCS said:


> GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
> Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.
> 
> I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.
> ...


I'm with you as far as going all in on wind/solar/hydro is concerned, but the issue is that we don't have the technology necessary to store and transfer it to all parts of the country (at least in the US).  We need a stopgap to get off fossil fuels sooner rather than later, and there aren't really any options better than nuclear power.  Yes its waste lasts forever, but it also generates exponentially less waste than what we're doing currently, and we're not properly disposing of that either.


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## SScorpio (Aug 28, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Power outages aren't a common occurrence except where shady privatized utility companies have a monopoly (Texas).  And I'm not sure if you're just ignorant or purposefully spouting lies about outages that suddenly and fully discharge your electric vehicle's battery.  Either way though, some electric vehicles (trucks mostly) are even being advertised as a way to power your home during such outages.


I live in a major metropolitan area where 1/3 of the consumers lose power at some point during the year. Also, have a look at California and its roaming blackouts, utility comes there have also confirmed they can't generate enough power for everyone if everyone had electric cars.

And of course, power outages don't immediately drain your car battery. But have you ever had a 3-day, or even over 7-day outage? It happens, and can be during natural emergencies when you need to get the fuck out of dodge but don't have an easily portable fuel source.



AlexMCS said:


> GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
> Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.
> 
> I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.
> ...


It's the big scary anti-Nuclear folks. Nuclear is still the cleanest energy source we have in terms of scale. Look into the environmental impact of producing those wind turbines and solar panels. Then also look at the long-term environmental impact of giant wind and solar farms.

Hydroelectric is great as long as you don't experience a long period of drought like those hitting the western states and affecting both the Hoover and Glen Canyon dams. Or hitting China's three gorges or even central Europe. Though initially building and flooding the new areas for the dam is a huge environmental change.

Geothermal electricity is extremely expensive per watt. So yes getting a Nuclear plant up and running is expensive, and there is some waste. But modern reactors can use the waste we have stored from older designs and using that waste as fuel gives it a shorter half-life, and there are new techniques for storage including encasing the waste in glass so it's not just a bunch of corrosive liquid in an oil barrel. https://www.newsweek.com/china-turn...lass-furnace-first-time-vitrification-1628387


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## Xzi (Aug 28, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> I live in a major metropolitan area where 1/3 of the consumers lose power at some point during the year.


Sure, but in most cases where we're talking about an hour or less, it's pretty much irrelevant.



SScorpio said:


> Also, have a look at California and its roaming blackouts, utility comes there have also confirmed they can't generate enough power for everyone if everyone had electric cars.


Frankly it's always been dumb to have such car-centric infrastructure to begin with, especially in highly populated states like California where that translates to rolling parking lots almost 24/7.  We need both far more walkable cities and far more public transport (rail/lightrail).  Not only does it help save energy, it improves scores on the happiness index.



SScorpio said:


> But have you ever had a 3-day, or even over 7-day outage? It happens, and can be during natural emergencies when you need to get the fuck out of dodge but don't have an easily portable fuel source.


Unless we start taking climate change seriously, it won't matter if you _can_ go somewhere else during a natural disaster, because there will be nowhere else to go. My home state of Colorado will ultimately be one of the least impacted, yet we'll still be dealing with massive wildfires and hail the size of softballs. Both clean water to drink and clean air to breathe will become increasingly scarce everywhere.


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## RAHelllord (Aug 28, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> This in theory is good as heat pumps are very efficient, which is right up to just a little below freezing.  Then heating your house will use roughly the same electricity as cooling your house to 68F in 95F summer temps all winter long.


Your information is outdated. Modern designs regularly function well up to -25°C (-13°F) at a good efficiency. Most places never encounter those temperatures, and if they do not for long. Combine this with it being possible to get better energy efficiency out of natural gas by burning it in a power plant and then moving the electricity to the consumer instead of the gas and it would take a heavy amount of load from the existing power grid, giving more time to upgrade it.

Like, if you don't have everyone burn gas in their own homes you can use that gas to make electricity and literally generate 4 times as much heat by just moving it inside via heat pump. A backup electrical heating unit would only be needed so irregularly that it is a vastly superior approach to heating most homes and far, far more energy efficient.


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## SScorpio (Aug 28, 2022)

RAHelllord said:


> Your information is outdated. Modern designs regularly function well up to -25°C (-13°F) at a good efficiency. Most places never encounter those temperatures, and if they do not for long. Combine this with it being possible to get better energy efficiency out of natural gas by burning it in a power plant and then moving the electricity to the consumer instead of the gas and it would take a heavy amount of load from the existing power grid, giving more time to upgrade it.
> 
> Like, if you don't have everyone burn gas in their own homes you can use that gas to make electricity and literally generate 4 times as much heat by just moving it inside via heat pump. A backup electrical heating unit would only be needed so irregularly that it is a vastly superior approach to heating most homes and far, far more energy efficient.


Do you have a source for these improved "modern" heat pumps? All of the information I find states that heat pumps fail at extracting heat from the outside air when the outside temperature drops below freezing and they fall back to a full electric heating so basically a large space heater.

There are hybrid systems that overcome the limitations of heat pumps, but those failover to a gas furnace backup which means you're not using full electric.


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## RAHelllord (Aug 28, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Do you have a source for these improved "modern" heat pumps? All of the information I find states that heat pumps fail at extracting heat from the outside air when the outside temperature drops below freezing and they fall back to a full electric heating so basically a large space heater.
> 
> There are hybrid systems that overcome the limitations of heat pumps, but those failover to a gas furnace backup which means you're not using full electric.


The MXZ-SM48NAMHZ from Mitsubishi goes that low, without a failover. But even cheaper models from Mitsubishi go down to -15°C / 5F with ease, and you can easily supplement those with electrical heating in areas where temps below 5F are rare.
The only problem is that the outdoor unit needs to have a defrost occassionally once it gets too cold to remove ice buildup. This lowers the efficiency somewhat but they remain far more efficient than just burning gas until they stop working altogether. But the amount of gas saved over every single other day of the year would mean there is more gas available at the power plants to offset it with proper space heaters.


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## The Real Jdbye (Aug 28, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Do you have a source for these improved "modern" heat pumps? All of the information I find states that heat pumps fail at extracting heat from the outside air when the outside temperature drops below freezing and they fall back to a full electric heating so basically a large space heater.
> 
> There are hybrid systems that overcome the limitations of heat pumps, but those failover to a gas furnace backup which means you're not using full electric.


Modern heat pumps have a heater in the outside unit which keeps it just above freezing when in use.


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## City (Aug 28, 2022)

AlexMCS said:


> I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.


I'm 100% with you on this. Unfortunately, the current ways we use solar power have some limitations:

- Storing the energy is a pain
- If a panel gets dirty, it gets much less efficient. One breath of wind and all of your desert panels are dirty. Who's going to wash them?
- Don't quote me on this, but roughly 5% of the light that gets to a solar panel is converted into energy, the rest becomes heat. I'm not entirely sure it's 5%, but definitely less than 15

There have been some projects, like covering roads with solar panels, that unfortunately have been proven not being that good of an idea (I suggest Thunderf00t's channel where he often calls out impossible projects like this). Maybe a mix of solar, wind and water can be a better idea?


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## SScorpio (Aug 28, 2022)

RAHelllord said:


> The MXZ-SM48NAMHZ from Mitsubishi goes that low, without a failover. But even cheaper models from Mitsubishi go down to -15°C / 5F with ease, and you can easily supplement those with electrical heating in areas where temps below 5F are rare.
> The only problem is that the outdoor unit needs to have a defrost occassionally once it gets too cold to remove ice buildup. This lowers the efficiency somewhat but they remain far more efficient than just burning gas until they stop working altogether. But the amount of gas saved over every single other day of the year would mean there is more gas available at the power plants to offset it with proper space heaters.





The Real Jdbye said:


> Modern heat pumps have a heater in the outside unit which keeps it just above freezing when in use.


Yes, it's possible for heat pumps to operate in sub-freezing temperatures. But can you find me the efficiency ratings for the Mitsubishis? The documentation on their site only lists it for down to 14F, while listing running for 5F, 0F, 05F, and -14F.

The point still stands once you get below freezing heat pumps become much less efficient and start up their own internal heaters to work. That's why I originally said the price of heating with them spikes.

Normally a heat pump can pull heat from the outside air, but once it hits freezing, the pump needs the internal heater to kick in for it to function. But there isn't any magic happening. The heat pump is running an electric heater just like a small space heater you could have. But those small space heaters use 1,500W, now scale that up to the heating needs of a house.

In cold climates, you are still looking at needing gas so you can run a hybrid system which would have major cost savings versus electric alone. I shudder thinking about the power needs for the utilities for non-hybrid systems along with charging electric cars. With cooling in the summer there's usually a pullback of demand during the night, in the winter it would get colder and needs more electricity to heat while needing to also charge cars during "off hours".

In the dark parts of the year, these colder climates have the majority of their days as completely overcast with maybe up to eight hours of daylight. So solar panels to help cut down on costs are out, and even if it was a cloudless day, those are normally much colder days and the solar panels will be covered in snow and ice.

In dry warm areas like a desert or California (but I repeat myself), solar panels and heat pumps for cooling make a lot of sense. Even at night when it gets down to the 40s they do an amazing job heating and are very efficient. But they aren't an answer to get away from gas in every scenario. Much like our autonomous cars that are just around the corner, throw them up against a harsh cold climate and they start not working as they should.


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## AlexMCS (Aug 29, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> It's the big scary anti-Nuclear folks. Nuclear is still the cleanest energy source we have in terms of scale. Look into the environmental impact of producing those wind turbines and solar panels. Then also look at the long-term environmental impact of giant wind and solar farms.



Like I said, it's the cleanest, as long as no disaster happens. When it does, it's a nightmare.
We'd need a safe way to jettison nuclear waste into the outer space IMO, or some sort of extremely fortified chamber to allow radiation to naturally decay into something harmless, and I bet those wouldn't be cheap.




City said:


> I'm 100% with you on this. Unfortunately, the current ways we use solar power have some limitations:
> 
> - Storing the energy is a pain
> - If a panel gets dirty, it gets much less efficient. One breath of wind and all of your desert panels are dirty. Who's going to wash them?
> ...



I'm not an expert in solar energy, far from it, but I do know the current efficiency is around 20~25%.
The heat itself could be turned into energy, also helping reduce Earth's temperature.

No idea if this is possible either, but regarding cleaning, why not encase the panels it in hydrophobic treated glass?

As for the environmental impact from production, even the nuclear plant will have it, so it's kinda moot to bring it up.



Xzi said:


> is that we don't have the technology necessary to store and transfer it to all parts of the country (at least in the US).



I don't know why it's supposedly so hard to distribute.
It doesn't seem so hard over here.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 29, 2022)

Remember that pro choice, i.e. Ukraine´s right to choose military alliances, trumps everything. It trumps environmental concerns (Russia is burning the gas it cannot export), famines in the Middle East and Africa and your well-being. A European leader spoke of 5-10 hard years for Europe.

Slava Ukrainini, Slava Slava Slava!

The only way to stop support for Ukraine is if Zelensky knelt on the back/neck of an African for 9 minutes. But even then I´m not so sure.


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## Xzi (Aug 29, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Remember that pro choice, i.e. Ukraine´s right to choose military alliances, trumps everything.


Oh fuck off with this, everybody's sick of your pro-Putin propaganda.  Outdated propaganda at that, since he himself admitted long ago that NATO was not the cause for the invasion, nor would the invasion stop if Ukraine permanently ceased all attempts to join it.  Neither Russian nor Ukrainian lives matter in the least to a man that demented, they're just playthings.

We've also already established that the rise in price of natural resources has very little to do with the war.  Russia isn't nearly as important as you or Putin would like to believe it is in that regard, and this just further stresses the importance of nations becoming energy independent.

"Just give the mentally unstable imperialist tyrant exactly what he wants and everything will work out fine, promise."


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## Xzi (Aug 29, 2022)

AlexMCS said:


> I don't know why it's supposedly so hard to distribute.
> It doesn't seem so hard over here.


There are probably very few parts of Brazil that receive too little sunlight for solar power generation.  Which means you don't really have to distribute it at all, the panels can be installed right on top of all population centers.  That's not possible for a lot of individual states, so we'd have to transfer the energy hundreds, if not thousands of miles from states that do generate enough solar and wind power.


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## City (Aug 29, 2022)

AlexMCS said:


> I'm not an expert in solar energy, far from it, but I do know the current efficiency is around 20~25%.
> The heat itself could be turned into energy, also helping reduce Earth's temperature.
> 
> No idea if this is possible either, but regarding cleaning, why not encase the panels it in hydrophobic treated glass?
> ...


The problem isn't water though, it's dirt. Not sure you can do much for it unless the panels are held vertically (but then you're getting even less energy).

As for the distribution, we're talking about transferring the energy from the desert to the city. How are you going to transport it?


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## RAHelllord (Aug 29, 2022)

The Real Jdbye said:


> Modern heat pumps have a heater in the outside unit which keeps it just above freezing when in use.





SScorpio said:


> Yes, it's possible for heat pumps to operate in sub-freezing temperatures. But can you find me the efficiency ratings for the Mitsubishis? The documentation on their site only lists it for down to 14F, while listing running for 5F, 0F, 05F, and -14F.
> 
> The point still stands once you get below freezing heat pumps become much less efficient and start up their own internal heaters to work. That's why I originally said the price of heating with them spikes.
> 
> ...


Two things, the heater is not permanently running as it's only needed to deice for a few minutes all 3-4 hours depending on the weather and only if the heatpump is not reversible, or if it needs to start up from cold in the winter with solid ice already present on the unit. The heater will turn off once the actual pump moving the fluid/gas around is at operating temperature and will stay off until there is too much ice present to prevent airflow through the heat exchanger.

If it is a reversible unit, meaning it can also cool indoors, then the deicing actually just switches to cooling indoors for about 2 minutes, heats up the heat exchanger outside enough that the ice melts enough to fall off (or melts down fully in case it can't fall off), then swaps back to heating indoors again. That takes a few minutes at most and is not noticeable according to the few people I know that already have one of those things in their homes.

As for efficiency at low temperatures, 100% up to 5°F and 75% at -13°F, directly from the spec sheets:

https://resource.gemaire.com/is/con...namhz-u1_article_1604089097122827_en_subs.pdf

Unless you live in the arctic those are feasible solutions for 99.9% of the year, and they double as AC during summer so you only need one of those units for most things.



City said:


> The problem isn't water though, it's dirt. Not sure you can do much for it unless the panels are held vertically (but then you're getting even less energy).


Just use a sprinkler or some form of brush going over it occasionally.


City said:


> As for the distribution, we're talking about transferring the energy from the desert to the city. How are you going to transport it?


Sending electricity over long distances is nothing new. Turn it into high voltage AC at high frequencies and you can send it hundreds of miles with barely any losses.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 29, 2022)

AlexMCS said:


> GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
> Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.
> 
> I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.
> ...


Interesting. Not had a disposal objection in a while, not to mention barring a few incidents in storage pools over the years then there are vanishingly few scare stories dealing with disposal. I would rate the concrete blocks down very deep (below water table) mines as safe enough for task as well.

As far as disposal it would depend what is going on. Thorium is a whole different game. Equally fire back up the breeder reactors* and concerns also drop considerably.

*various hippies tend to lobby for their closure as breeder reactors whilst also disposing of some of the more fun isotopes into something far easier to handle also make all the nice medical grade stuff (see the shortage of Technetium 99m a few years back, some of the iodine stuff also falls under that but that is a different discussion), however it is but a short hop, skip and jump to enrichment for bombs so in come the hippies.

Edit. Re: heat pumps.
Ground source in suitable location (most of the US west coat -- it is called the ring of fire for a reason) and even in less suitable ones. Wonderful.
Air source... love the things for certain uses but households can be more tricky


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## RAHelllord (Aug 29, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> Edit. Re: heat pumps.
> Ground source in suitable location (most of the US west coat -- it is called the ring of fire for a reason) and even in less suitable ones. Wonderful.
> Air source... love the things for certain uses but households can be more tricky


There is a lot happening in the space recently making new models more suitable for even more climates, especially colder ones: 
Again, Mitsubishi's latest models have 100% efficiency down to 5°F / -15°C.

The problem the new ones have is still mostly price and installation costs, but particularly the latter appears to be vastly overblown by contractors for how little the installation differs from a regular AC install. Especially since the differences in installation are basically an extra valve to allow flipping the direction of the fluid/gas around and some extra sensors to let the unit know when to deice.
But once you have a well insulated home the lower output doesn't matter, almost nobody has to run a gas furnace at 100% load 24/7.


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## DinohScene (Aug 29, 2022)

The house I live in has a heatpump.
I've wanted to get solar panels fitted but housing cooperation refuses.
Bummer.


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## Jayro (Aug 29, 2022)

The gas prices here in the U.S. have come down considerably. Are you guys not getting relief yet?


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 29, 2022)

Im just gonna subscribe to this thread..... gonna see how long untill the based ones pop up


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## Xzi (Aug 29, 2022)

Jayro said:


> The gas prices here in the U.S. have come down considerably. Are you guys not getting relief yet?


Natural gas (ovens/furnaces) versus gasoline (cars).  Though neither is prohibitively expensive at the moment in the US, on that you're correct.  The real insanity is in food and rent prices.


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## SScorpio (Aug 29, 2022)

RAHelllord said:


> Two things, the heater is not permanently running as it's only needed to deice for a few minutes all 3-4 hours depending on the weather and only if the heatpump is not reversible, or if it needs to start up from cold in the winter with solid ice already present on the unit. The heater will turn off once the actual pump moving the fluid/gas around is at operating temperature and will stay off until there is too much ice present to prevent airflow through the heat exchanger.
> 
> If it is a reversible unit, meaning it can also cool indoors, then the deicing actually just switches to cooling indoors for about 2 minutes, heats up the heat exchanger outside enough that the ice melts enough to fall off (or melts down fully in case it can't fall off), then swaps back to heating indoors again. That takes a few minutes at most and is not noticeable according to the few people I know that already have one of those things in their homes.
> 
> ...



The marketing only says 100% capacity which is only saying how much heat the unit can generate.

From that same PDF.

At 47F the max and rated capacity is the same 54,000 BTU at just under 4,000W.

At 17F they split to a max 54,000 BTU with a rated 39,000 BTU with max at 6,300W and rated at 4,200W. So that gives you a 28% heating drop with a slight power increase, or a 50% more power usage to stay at the same heating capacity.

At 5F the PDF only lists the max capacity at 54,000 BTU with just under 8,000W power draw.

There's a reason they don't do ratings at 5F or lower as the number are horrible. And at -5F the max capacity from the marketing falls to 40,500 BTU and lord only knows how much power it's pulling to be able to generate that.

Again I'm not saying heat pumps don't work at those cold temperatures, but they are incredibly inefficient. And for my power usage comparison, an average whole house air conditioner uses 3,000-3,500W. So at 47F, the heat pump is using slightly more power than an AC, at colder temps, it can hit 2-3x the power usage.

Think of the issues utilities across the country on 90F+ days when everyone has their AC cranked. Now double that power draw except you don't get the nighttime where the usage goes down since it gets even colder at night and you could have 2-3x the power draw.

Heat pumps are really cool tech, but I still argue the point we're still a ways off from completely getting rid of using gas due to those colder climates needing hybrid heating solutions to allow the burning of gas for heat when temps get really low.


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## RAHelllord (Aug 29, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> The marketing only says 100% capacity which is only saying how much heat the unit can generate.
> 
> From that same PDF.
> 
> ...


You're missing the point that gas burned at home for heat extracts less useable power than using it in a power plant to generate electricity. If nobody burns gas at home for heat that same gas would make enough power in power plants to supply double the amount of homes with enough energy to run these during high demand periods. The power grid falling over during heat waves isn't because there isn't enough power, it's because your power companies in the US don't use any of their profits to actually scale the infrastructure moving the power around the place without blackouts. Upgrading that would be surprisingly simple if a bit costly. But it has to happen one way or another.

Gas powerplants can also be made to do a combination of electricity generation and creating hot water for heating closer homes, it's a pretty popular thing to do here in Germany.

The only exception to this would be Texas and their hilarious attempts at dodging federal regulations and doing their own thing. They can't scale shit up as easily as other places can since they don't have the ability to just import or export power to other states that momentarily need it.


----------



## SScorpio (Aug 29, 2022)

RAHelllord said:


> You're missing the point that gas burned at home for heat extracts less useable power than using it in a power plant to generate electricity. If nobody burns gas at home for heat that same gas would make enough power in power plants to supply double the amount of homes with enough energy to run these during high demand periods. The power grid falling over during heat waves isn't because there isn't enough power, it's because your power companies in the US don't use any of their profits to actually scale the infrastructure moving the power around the place without blackouts. Upgrading that would be surprisingly simple if a bit costly. But it has to happen one way or another.
> 
> Gas powerplants can also be made to do a combination of electricity generation and creating hot water for heating closer homes, it's a pretty popular thing to do here in Germany.
> 
> The only exception to this would be Texas and their hilarious attempts at dodging federal regulations and doing their own thing. They can't scale shit up as easily as other places can since they don't have the ability to just import or export power to other states that momentarily need it.


I don't have the data to try comparing heating via hot water as it isn't done here and the US is larger and more spread out.

But 1 cubic foot of natural gas is just over 1,000 BTU when burned. However, natural gas power plants only have a 45-57% efficiency rating. Yes, electricity to heat is pretty much 100% efficient. But you transmitting electricity large distances also isn't without some cost.

Going off the assumption that burning natural gas produces the same BTU at -15F as it does at 47F. Using it instead for electricity generation and transmission is roughly 50% efficient. Then there's the large increase to generate heat as it gets colder and you still say heat pumps alone are the way to go?

Just look at tri-fuel generators that run off gas, propane, and natural gas. Their generation ratings are based on gas, and natural gas normally only produces 50% of what it's rated at.

Burning gas at a power plant also doesn't solve trying to go to "green" solutions. That's why I still say nuclear is the way to go until we magically find something better. Your argument about heated water warming nearby homes can and is done with nuclear plants. And while you do have nuclear waste to deal with, the plants vent steam that just vapor H2O rather than all of the CO2 natural gas plants emit.

Natural Gas is CH4 + 2 O2 -> CO2 + 2 H2O -- So yes, burning it does give you water, but it also gives you CO2.


----------



## RAHelllord (Aug 29, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> I don't have the data to try comparing heating via hot water as it isn't done here and the US is larger and more spread out.
> 
> But 1 cubic foot of natural gas is just over 1,000 BTU when burned. However, natural gas power plants only have a 45-57% efficiency rating. Yes, electricity to heat is pretty much 100% efficient. But you transmitting electricity large distances also isn't without some cost.
> 
> ...


In the document I linked the COP (Coefficient of Performance) at 5°F is 2.1 for non-ducted, which is the closest directly comparable case. This means for every watt of energy in the heat pump supplies 2.1w of effective heating.
Assuming your cubic foot of gas for some quick math. One of those when burned equals 1,037 BTU which is the equivalent of 0.3039kWh of electrical power. Gas at a plant produces an average of 0.14 kWh/cubic foot.
At 5°F that equals 0,294kWh of heating, a 96.7% performance rating compared to natural gas. And that assumes it's actually possible to get 100% efficiency out of the furnace at home which is often not the case.
However the real magic happens at the other breaking points that are more likely to appear often, the COP at 17°F is 2.5 which means you now get 0,35 kWh of heating for every cubic foot of gas, 115,2% the performance of gas. At 47°F the COP is 4.0, equaling 0,56 kWh and 184,3% of the energy output of burning gas at home.

This means even at 5°F you only need to add 3.3% of additional heating to break even to gas, and if it's any warmer than that you will always outperform gas directly.

I do know that natural gas isn't perfectly clean even at a natural gas plant, but it is easier to properly clean it from byproducts more thoroughly, as well as that the CO2 could be captured for other applications.
And yeah, heating water to use nearby would only be feasible for a close by city, or the industrial area around it. If they have a gas plant in an industry area it might be quite useful to supply nearby businesses with warm water that way to waste less energy.


----------



## Jayro (Aug 29, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Natural gas (ovens/furnaces) versus gasoline (cars).  Though neither is prohibitively expensive at the moment in the US, on that you're correct.  The real insanity is in food and rent prices.


Oh don't I know it... Obama still had an entire YEAR left in his last term do do something about the housing crisis in 2008, and he didn't do a damn thing.and of course, things just got worse from there. Why won't anybody put rent caps on landlords? This shit is the #1 reason why we're struggling so hard right now.


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## SScorpio (Aug 30, 2022)

RAHelllord said:


> In the document I linked the COP (Coefficient of Performance) at 5°F is 2.1 for non-ducted, which is the closest directly comparable case. This means for every watt of energy in the heat pump supplies 2.1w of effective heating.
> Assuming your cubic foot of gas for some quick math. One of those when burned equals 1,037 BTU which is the equivalent of 0.3039kWh of electrical power. Gas at a plant produces an average of 0.14 kWh/cubic foot.
> At 5°F that equals 0,294kWh of heating, a 96.7% performance rating compared to natural gas. And that assumes it's actually possible to get 100% efficiency out of the furnace at home which is often not the case.
> However the real magic happens at the other breaking points that are more likely to appear often, the COP at 17°F is 2.5 which means you now get 0,35 kWh of heating for every cubic foot of gas, 115,2% the performance of gas. At 47°F the COP is 4.0, equaling 0,56 kWh and 184,3% of the energy output of burning gas at home.
> ...


The gas vs electric prices aren't lining up for me.

Both gas and electricity come from the same company for me and the price is fairly stable throughout the year.

12/22/21 - 1/20/22 for heating last year was 131 CCF (100 CF per CCF) and is rated at ~$1/CCF. I have a gas dryer, water heater, and oven/stove so not all of it was heating. But that means $0.01 USD per cubic foot of natural gas. Which if burned you say gives ~0.30kWh. So 13,100 * 0.3 = 3,930 kWh.

Let's go with a 2.5 COP. 3,930 kWh / 2.5 * $0.19 (cost of 1 kWh of electricity for me) = $298.86 vs $114 that I was charged which includes $13 just have service, delivery surcharges, and sales tax which the electricity number doesn't include.

My math is possibly bad but would the needed COP calculation be COP = 3930 / (114 / .19)? Because that says I'd need a COP of 6.55 to break even.


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## fdyyt (Aug 30, 2022)

we'll just wait then.


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## RAHelllord (Aug 30, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> The gas vs electric prices aren't lining up for me.
> 
> Both gas and electricity come from the same company for me and the price is fairly stable throughout the year.
> 
> ...


The way prices at the supplier are calculated are mostly just based on how much they think they can get away with charging the customer. They have huge profit margins in the US on both and on top of that fossil fuels, including natural gas of course, has up to 80% subsidy applied to it, and is thus cheaper for the customer because every tax payer is helping fund it via their taxes.

Using less gas for heating should mean more gas for power creation, thus a drop in price for electricity as the supply now increases. So assuming the free market principles are real, and not just smoke capitalists blow up the asses of everyone else, electricity should become more affordable as more people switch to heat pumps.


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## Taleweaver (Aug 30, 2022)

City said:


> Unless the government will do something about it


What, the government? As in... The USA government? That third world country with their rightwing politics and their nutcases that make said rightwings seem like lefties? Fat chance. News outlets have an allergy towards socialism, and as a result the people as well. So no... Don't expect the government to do something they're fundamentally against doing.

Sorry... Guess they've got to move to a more civilized country.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Aug 30, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Oh fuck off with this, everybody's sick of your pro-Putin propaganda.  Outdated propaganda at that, since he himself admitted long ago that NATO was not the cause for the invasion, nor would the invasion stop if Ukraine permanently ceased all attempts to join it.  Neither Russian nor Ukrainian lives matter in the least to a man that demented, they're just playthings.
> 
> We've also already established that the rise in price of natural resources has very little to do with the war.  Russia isn't nearly as important as you or Putin would like to believe it is in that regard, and this just further stresses the importance of nations becoming energy independent.
> 
> "Just give the mentally unstable imperialist tyrant exactly what he wants and everything will work out fine, promise."


It´s not pro-Putin propaganda. Has nothing to do with one man. Difficult to grasp for a Disney audience, but Putin can lose an election. And there are many different factions in Russia, even within the right-wing. Some (e.g. those who like Dugin) support the war. Some oppose it. There would have been no war without American involvement. Prior to the war, Russia expressed their red line. It was ignored. The start had everything to do with NATO. Now it is more complicated.
Tyrant nations get what they want. I would not support bombing the American troops in Syria (who occupy 1/3 of the country!) even though it would be legal under international law. I prefer to avoid nuclear war. That´s just how selfish I am. Tyrant nations have more say than the Fiji islands or Andorra. That´s the real world.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 30, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Oh don't I know it... Obama still had an entire YEAR left in his last term do do something about the housing crisis in 2008, and he didn't do a damn thing.and of course, things just got worse from there. Why won't anybody put rent caps on landlords? This shit is the #1 reason why we're struggling so hard right now.


Do rent caps work?

We have decades of data now from New York rent controls (functionally the same thing) and it usually sees minimal services (including the real fun stuff like rent controlled parts of the building not able to access services the non rent controlled parts have), minimal repair, minimal new stock generated*, more recently anything they can given over to being a quasi hotel with the air B&B and its ilk, . Now there is also a massive debt bubble in New York as well as pumped up prices get used as collateral for further loans

*ye boring and basic supply-demand curve says if free market is ignored (granted building codes in New York, which are some of the strictest in the world and it is still a dirty shithole, say anything but free market. Though I would probably look at San Francisco for the real fun there, not that the single family homes suburban US model adopted basically everywhere after world war 2 does well** and that is also coming to a head about now) then supply will drop (or at least not grow with need) as that limits their losses.

**I think it was most telling that architects when given the chance don't live in such things and instead in more old school European approaches but that is probably a different discussion on the failures of that model of home building (or perhaps not and instead a deeper discussion).

Likewise what could be accomplished in that year even if he had the balls and political power (president = figurehead for most purposes)? The seeds were sown long before then with deregulation of the market and fraud that came with that.

I do also have to note plenty of landlords are not big faceless mega corps (that also form grandma's pension fund but eh on that) but people that inherited a house, moved in with a partner, built a little place as their investment and then use the proceeds of that to fund their income, retirement or such like. Granted I am not the biggest fan of real estate as a driver of an economy (it does nothing, it just sits there adding no value) but limited supply (also a problem) and food-water-shelter and all that means it has a place in the game.

It is all a very nice feel good thing to say this sort of thing and even attempt it but practical realities where it gets tried and


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## City (Aug 30, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> What, the government? As in... The USA government? That third world country with their rightwing politics and their nutcases that make said rightwings seem like lefties? Fat chance. News outlets have an allergy towards socialism, and as a result the people as well. So no... Don't expect the government to do something they're fundamentally against doing.
> 
> Sorry... Guess they've got to move to a more civilized country.


M8 this isn't reddit where shitting on the USA in every thread will grant you le updoots and leddit gold. Russia is right next to Europe and many countries rely on Russia's natural gas. Who the fuck cares about a country that has currently zero issues with this, since it's on the other side of the world? Are you so self-centered that you forgot that other countries exist? FFS.


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## Jayro (Aug 30, 2022)

FAST6191 said:


> Do rent caps work?
> 
> We have decades of data now from New York rent controls (functionally the same thing) and it usually sees minimal services (including the real fun stuff like rent controlled parts of the building not able to access services the non rent controlled parts have), minimal repair, minimal new stock generated*, more recently anything they can given over to being a quasi hotel with the air B&B and its ilk, . Now there is also a massive debt bubble in New York as well as pumped up prices get used as collateral for further loans
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of paying someone else's mortgage through exploitation of the housing market.


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## FAST6191 (Aug 30, 2022)

Jayro said:


> I'm not a fan of paying someone else's mortgage through exploitation of the housing market.


Depending upon how you work it then you don't have to, at least not have to view it that way.

Between house moves, upkeep (even more so if you don't plan on getting DIY skills, or have to do permits/qualifications to change a socket, never mind if you have a wife that keeps up with the Jones' thus redoing kitchen/bathroom every few years), insurance, taxes and moving costs (particularly if you fall for the nonsense that is starter homes) the mortgage payment vs rent + extra that would be mortgage payment into boring and basic safe investments (think index funds boring and safe) then the rent aspect can come out ahead of things, with the added perks of being able to readily chase jobs, drop off the grid for a few months and travel, have a cushion, and more still if you go in for even basic levels of minimalism. Harder to get that working in ridiculous places like New York, San Francisco, LA, Seattle and certain parts of Texas but such things are probably best experienced as a tourist if you are inclined to go in for that.

I was skirting around it last time as we are further away from gas (be it petrol or natural) prices even if there are concerns in that (the style of design increases costs there, and all but ensures cars are a requirement for all rather than a nice perk) but might as well go now
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa

Between stuff like that, lack of supply (usually a fault of overly burdensome restrictions, though they might try to sell it to you along the lines of safety and being a filthy hippy that does not know maths/heat transfer, plus old people aka the only people that vote like safety and their garden views, not to mention the generally theoretical richness* that comes from house price increases, which means they block everything which might tread on that), overly high taxes in many instances (some places are better than others) and the push for skills in the workforce (which means STEM degree, accounting, skills related to those or get lost in the modern world, plus ridiculousness in education costs for some of those in the US which I would say again is the result of over meddling by the government** plus workforce doubling because women joining in various capacities) that speaks far more to the lack of affordability of housing and related aspects of rent.

*unless you are going to go squat in a tent for your retirement then a rising tide lifts all ships. Though as long as housing prices outpace inflation or indeed even the markets then those loaning money (which also pull more than a few puppet strings) are also ahead on things so will similarly block things where they can (see also why big businesses are often the ones pushing for minimum wage increases).

**it is not a coincidence the cost of tuition scales give or take a minor risk bonus (not everybody will default thus you can assume better than worst case scenario) with the minimum rates the government guarantees will be repaid in loans.


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## Xzi (Aug 30, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> It´s not pro-Putin propaganda. Has nothing to do with one man. Difficult to grasp for a Disney audience, but Putin can lose an election.


Lmao who do you think you're fooling?  Putin declared himself god-emperor of Russia about a decade ago now, and every election since has been transparently fraudulent.  The leader of his opposition was poisoned multiple times before being thrown in jail (presumably for life) on bogus charges.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> There would have been no war without American involvement.


Horse shit.  The invasion is and always has been about attempting to seize Ukraine's resources/geographical position, and therefore it was always inevitable.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Tyrant nations get what they want.


Clearly not, or there would be no international resistance to Putin's imperialist actions.  If in the modern day, superpowers got to invade and annex whichever countries they want, America would've annexed Russia for its oil decades ago.


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## tabzer (Aug 30, 2022)

"America is so great, because it doesn't fake democracy. "

-JFK


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

KingVamp said:


> Funny, because it is the Republicans that are blocking gas bills meant for lowering cost.


Funny, because Sponge-Brain Shits-Pants shut down drilling leases on public lands on his first day in office.

OTOH, there are no serious gas bills in Congress right now. If there were, they would have included it in the Increase Inflation Act.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

AlexMCS said:


> GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
> Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.
> 
> I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.
> ...


No need to dispose of the waste if it can be recycled.

https://www.wired.com/story/recycled-nuclear-waste-will-power-a-new-reactor/

The desert is the worst place to put solar panels. The panels lose a lot of efficiency at high temperatures, not to mention deserts are naturally very dusty which require water to wash it off.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/...gher-temperatures-are-undermining-solar-power


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## Xzi (Aug 30, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> OTOH, there are no serious gas bills in Congress right now. If there were, they would have included it in the Increase Inflation Act.


The one introduced by Democrats was already voted down by Republicans (about a month ago IIRC).  If they had included it in the Inflation Reduction Act, that also would've been voted down by Republicans.  But you probably already knew that.

It's also unnecessary at this point, since the price of gasoline has been falling steadily for quite a while now.


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## Lather (Aug 30, 2022)

we have no choice, make a war 3rd


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 30, 2022)

This is why green energy is based because we harvest the Earth, instead of kneeling to energy companies.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

Xzi said:


> The one introduced by Democrats was already voted down by Republicans (about a month ago IIRC).  If they had included it in the Inflation Reduction Act, that also would've been voted down by Republicans.  But you probably already knew that.
> 
> It's also unnecessary at this point, since the price of gasoline has been falling steadily for quite a while now.


And why is it falling? Because the resident is taking from the Strategic Oil Reserves which is supposed to be for the military during war time. It is a temporary measure. Gas prices will go up once we burn through this latest release.

Got any long term plans, because we used to be energy independent and now we are not for over a year now. What changed last year?


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## Xzi (Aug 30, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Gas prices will go up once we burn through this latest release.


Which is asinine, because the price per barrel is the same now as it was back in the late 2000s when gas was $3.50 a gallon.  We need to be transitioning to electric vehicles anyway, but still, profiteering on necessities is out of control.



TraderPatTX said:


> Got any long term plans, because we used to be energy independent and now we are not for over a year now. What changed last year?


Lol we've never been fully energy independent, else we would've cut ties to the mass murdering Saudi royals long ago.  The long term plan needs to be eliminating reliance on finite fossil fuels altogether.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Which is asinine, because the price per barrel is the same now as it was back in the late 2000s when gas was $3.50 a gallon.  We need to be transitioning to electric vehicles anyway, but still, profiteering on necessities is out of control.
> 
> 
> Lol we've never been fully energy independent, else we would've cut ties to the mass murdering Saudi royals long ago.  The long term plan needs to be eliminating reliance on finite fossil fuels altogether.


Gas prices are at $3.84/gallon. Not much above the $3.50 you quoted.

https://gasprices.aaa.com/

You want to rely on even more finite rare earth minerals that require strip mining of the land using slave labor.

Not to mention, you were just complaining about the power grids in another comment and you want to put more pressure on them charging EV's. Make it make sense.


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## Xzi (Aug 30, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Gas prices are at $3.84/gallon. Not much above the $3.50 you quoted.


Right, but as you pointed out, that's because strategic reserves are being released.  Once that dries up corporations will go right back to gouging people just because they can.



TraderPatTX said:


> You want to rely on even more finite rare earth minerals that require strip mining of the land using slave labor.


Slave labor is not a requirement, and it still pollutes/destabilizes a lot less land than drilling for oil/fracking. 



TraderPatTX said:


> Not to mention, you were just complaining about the power grids in another comment and you want to put more pressure on them charging EV's. Make it make sense.


I was identifying a problem without a current solution, not "complaining."  Nuclear power is the best stopgap for the US in particular until we reach a breakthrough in battery technology.  That said, a lot of states also have the option to go 100% renewable right now.


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## AncientBoi (Aug 30, 2022)

*Eat Beans* guys. Just eat more beans


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 30, 2022)

AncientBoi said:


> *Eat Beans* guys. Just eat more beans


Game boy advanced filled with  b e a n s


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## matthi321 (Aug 30, 2022)

thats the price we have to pay to not let russia win in ukraine, even if thousands will die of cold in the west,that is a small price to not let russia win


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## Xzi (Aug 30, 2022)

matthi321 said:


> thats the price we have to pay to not let russia win in ukraine, even if thousands will die of cold in the west,that is a small price to not let russia win


As if thousands don't already die from starvation/homelessness annually.  And as if Republicans have ever actually given a shit.  The poor are second-class citizens in the US, same as it ever was.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 30, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Right, but as you pointed out, that's because strategic reserves are being released.  Once that dries up corporations will go right back to gouging people just because they can.
> 
> 
> Slave labor is not a requirement, and it still pollutes/destabilizes a lot less land than drilling for oil/fracking.
> ...


Prices will go back up because of simple supply and demand. Econ 101, familiarize yourself with it.

It just so happens that rare earth materials for batteries are all mined in third world countries. Do you think they have a 40 hour work week and livable wages? I laugh in your general direction. 

You admit that we are being transitioned to a technology that needs a breakthrough. At least we were able to meet part of the way. That's progress.


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## City (Aug 31, 2022)

matthi321 said:


> thats the price we have to pay to not let russia win in ukraine, even if thousands will die of cold in the west,that is a small price to not let russia win


Damn are you a muslim political terrorist? Because that's one massive suicide bombing to your own campaign.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Jayro said:


> I'm not a fan of paying someone else's mortgage through exploitation of the housing market.


You are about to be forced to pay other people's student loans if the resident gets his way.


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## Jayro (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You are about to be forced to pay other people's student loans if the resident gets his way.


Whatever makes things easier for people to get educated.


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## matthi321 (Aug 31, 2022)

City said:


> Damn are you a muslim political terrorist? Because that's one massive suicide bombing to your own campaign.


no im just a ukraine supporter.ukriane winning this war is the only thing thats matters now.fuck our own people in the west,if some poor fuckers die of cold or hunger,so be it we cant leet russia win this war.besides if russia win this war, they will just continue to annex countries,until they have annexd the whole world including Antarctia
​


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## City (Aug 31, 2022)

matthi321 said:


> no im just a ukraine supporter.ukriane winning this war is the only thing thats matters now.fuck our own people in the west,if some poor fuckers die of cold or hunger,so be it we cant leet russia win this war.besides if russia win this war, they will just continue to annex countries,until they have annexd the whole world including Antarctia
> ​


Except Ukraine is never going to win the war alone. The only way for Ukraine to win the war is to be granted a NATO membership, but that will never happen. So maybe let's not make people die of frostbite just because we're too chicken to stop this war by doing the only right thing.

We stopped buying oil from Russia. What did India and other countries do? Bought them at a lower price. The money pressure is clearly not working.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Whatever makes things easier for people to get educated.


So you support educated people being homeless? Why be willing to pay for one and not the other?


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## Xzi (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Prices will go back up because of simple supply and demand. Econ 101, familiarize yourself with it.


Wrong, I already told you the price per barrel of oil is at the same level as the late 2000s.  Therefore if corporations are charging more per a gallon of gas than they were at that time, it's unnecessary gouging/profiteering, plain and simple.  You don't gotta shill for fucking Exxon, much as you seem to enjoy it.



TraderPatTX said:


> It just so happens that rare earth materials for batteries are all mined in third world countries. Do you think they have a 40 hour work week and livable wages? I laugh in your general direction.


The corporations producing solar panels and wind turbines are international.  Same as oil corporations.  This is just concern trolling.



TraderPatTX said:


> You admit that we are being transitioned to a technology that needs a breakthrough. At least we were able to meet part of the way. That's progress.


Again your reading comprehension has failed you.  We need a breakthrough in battery technology (or grid capacity) to transfer green energy to _certain specific_ states that don't get enough sun or wind to generate their own. At least half the country could switch to 100% renewables without any issue right now. The other half is better off using nuclear power in the meantime to reduce emissions and pollution.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Wrong, I already told you the price per barrel of oil is at the same level as the late 2000s.  Therefore if corporations are charging more per a gallon of gas than they were at that time, it's unnecessary gouging/profiteering, plain and simple.  You don't gotta shill for fucking Exxon, much as you seem to enjoy it.
> 
> 
> The corporations producing solar panels and wind turbines are international.  Same as oil corporations.  This is just concern trolling.
> ...


So every energy company all around the world are price gouging in unison? Our prices are a lot better than Europe's because they depend on other countries for their energy and that supply got cut off. Supply/demand. Please read up on it.

So solar and wind corporations are just as evil as oil companies. Duly noted.

So we need a breakthrough but half the country could switch right now. Your cognitive dissonance is astounding.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So every energy company all around the world are price gouging in unison?


"Every" he says, as if there aren't only three or four major international oil players that can easily coordinate price fixing.



TraderPatTX said:


> So solar and wind corporations are just as evil as oil companies. Duly noted.


There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but the product provided by wind and solar companies can make countries, states, or even individuals energy independent.  Meaning it's virtually impossible to gouge the middle and lower classes if we transition to renewables fully.  The price of renewables per kWh is already much lower than that of electricity generated by oil, coal, or natural gas.



TraderPatTX said:


> So we need a breakthrough but half the country could switch right now. Your cognitive dissonance is astounding.


I've been trying my hardest not to insult you, but fuck, your stupidity is really testing my patience here.  How is it "cognitive dissonance" if I tell you that one half of the country could fully switch to renewables now, but *THE OTHER HALF* needs to utilize a stopgap instead? You understand that 50% + 50% = 100%, yes?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Xzi said:


> "Every" he says, as if there aren't only three or four major international oil players that can easily coordinate price fixing.
> 
> 
> There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but the product provided by wind and solar companies can make countries, states, or even individuals energy independent.  Meaning it's virtually impossible to gouge the middle and lower classes if we transition to renewables fully.  The price of renewables per kWh is already much lower than that of electricity generated by oil, coal, or natural gas.
> ...


Imagine equating oil to all energy production. Have you never heard of natural gas, propane, or coal? Please read up on topics before commenting.

Tell that to California who pay the highest in energy costs in the country. The cost is lower because we stopped drilling. Supply and demand. For the love God, read up on it.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. You didn't even back it up with any kind of studies. Sorry if I'm not gonna believe everything you blurt out your butthole.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Imagine equating oil to all energy production. Have you never heard of natural gas, propane, or coal? Please read up on topics before commenting.


You lost the thread somewhere along the way, not me.  I was referring specifically to gasoline prices with my comments about gouging and profiteering.  You even responded with a comment about strategic reserves being released, remember?



TraderPatTX said:


> Tell that to California who pay the *highest* in energy costs in the country. The cost is *lower* because we stopped drilling.


Lmao way to contradict yourself.



TraderPatTX said:


> Just because you say something doesn't make it true. You didn't even back it up with any kind of studies. Sorry if I'm not gonna believe everything you blurt out your butthole.


Why the fuck would I need a study for a concept so simple a sixth grader could understand it?  Some states do not see enough sunshine or wind annually to generate 100% of their own renewable energy, so installing a high number of solar panels and/or wind turbines in those states would be fruitless.  Until we have the battery technology to transfer renewable energy from states that can generate an excess of it, those renewable-deficient states need a stopgap to reduce emissions and pollution generated by oil and natural gas.  My suggestion would be nuclear energy, but there are other options as well.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Xzi said:


> You lost the thread somewhere along the way, not me.  I was referring specifically to gasoline prices with my comments about gouging and profiteering.  You even responded with a comment about strategic reserves being released, remember?
> 
> 
> Lmao way to contradict yourself.
> ...


Batteries do not transfer power, they store power. Power lines transfer power. Next you gonna tell me that bullets travels 5 times as rapidly as a bullet shot out of any other gun.


----------



## Jayro (Aug 31, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> So you support educated people being homeless? Why be willing to pay for one and not the other?


If they're educated, they'll have a good career and won't be homeless, duh.


----------



## The Catboy (Aug 31, 2022)

Government doesn’t control the gas prices and they shouldn’t control them either


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 31, 2022)

Jayro said:


> If they're educated, they'll have a good career and won't be homeless, duh.


If they are educated, they shouldn't need help paying off their student loans. If they don't know how to pay loans back, they won't know how to pay a mortgage or rent.

Poor people will be paying off loans for people with master's degrees.


----------



## Jayro (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If they are educated, they shouldn't need help paying off their student loans. If they don't know how to pay loans back, they won't know how to pay a mortgage or rent.
> 
> Poor people will be paying off loans for people with master's degrees.


Studentoans shouldn't exist in the first place, silly. 
It's classist as fuck, and only hurts poorer communities, like uh... The entire general population.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Jayro said:


> Studentoans shouldn't exist in the first place, silly.
> It's classist as fuck, and only hurts poorer communities, like uh... The entire general population.


Well, I live in the real world where they do. Wishing them away will not accomplish much.

I think student loans should be backed by the universities and the billions they receive in endowments, which are tax free. Then they will have skin in the game and not offer stupid degrees to people leading to jobs at Starbucks.

Instead they are taxpayer backed and people can't even claim them in a bankruptcy. Thanks Obama.


----------



## MikaDubbz (Sep 1, 2022)

Tens of thousands of dollars for the gas bill?  Where the hell do your parents live?


----------



## LainaGabranth (Sep 1, 2022)

so called "libertarians" when you suggest we should break free from corporate moguls and be independent syndicalists:


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Batteries do not transfer power, they store power. Power lines transfer power.


No shit Sherlock.  Solar panels and wind turbines generate an excess of power back to the grid, which would ultimately be a good thing if we had the storage capacity to handle it, but we do not.  Power lines are not capable of transferring energy from the Midwest all the way to the Northeast without severe degradation.


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Well, I live in the real world where they do. Wishing them away will not accomplish much.
> 
> I think student loans should be backed by the universities and the billions they receive in endowments, which are tax free. Then they will have skin in the game and not offer stupid degrees to people leading to jobs at Starbucks.
> 
> Instead they are taxpayer backed and people can't even claim them in a bankruptcy. Thanks Obama.



Ok but then you're against student loan forgiveness, which could absolutely bankrupt both these for profit colleges and these predatory loan companies that freely manipulate teenagers into a lifelong debt they can't hope to even begin to pay back through reasonings like price jacked interest, piss poor educational/career management on behalf of the recruiter or even outright misinformation and misleading.

You're a special individual, aren't you?

Oh, who am I kidding. I've seen enough of your vitriol to know you're a conservative Republican on a mission to destroy the livelihoods of anyone who isn't a rich white male.



TraderPatTX said:


> Funny, because Sponge-Brain Shits-Pants shut down drilling leases on public lands on his first day in office.
> 
> OTOH, there are no serious gas bills in Congress right now. If there were, they would have included it in the Increase Inflation Act.



Hey guess what? Trump was in office for four years and didn't sign off on Keystone either.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> No shit Sherlock.  Solar panels and wind turbines generate an excess of power back to the grid, which would ultimately be a good thing if we had the storage capacity to handle it, but we do not.  Power lines are not capable of transferring energy from the Midwest all the way to the Northeast without severe degradation.


I'm glad that we all understand the basics.

Oh, I take it that none of you realize that all plastics, including those installed in EV's, are derived from fossil fuels? So that means we will have to continue drilling until we develop an alternative to plastic.

Not sure if any of you know that when windmills are done killing large birds of prey like the endangered golden eagle, they are disassembled and buried in landfills since fiberglass is unrecyclable.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> Ok but then you're against student loan forgiveness, which could absolutely bankrupt both these for profit colleges and these predatory loan companies that freely manipulate teenagers into a lifelong debt they can't hope to even begin to pay back through reasonings like price jacked interest, piss poor educational/career management on behalf of the recruiter or even outright misinformation and misleading.


If you take out a loan for a degree that does not ensure you make enough money to pay it back, then you received a shitty degree. Blame the colleges for even offering it. 


SyphenFreht said:


> You're a special individual, aren't you?
> 
> Oh, who am I kidding. I've seen enough of your vitriol to know you're a conservative Republican on a mission to destroy the livelihoods of anyone who isn't a rich white male.


You want poor minorities with no college degree to pay for the degrees of rich privileged white leftists with a master's in gender studies. Before you call me a racist, make sure you understand your position on this topic, because it is obvious that you don't.


SyphenFreht said:


> Hey guess what? Trump was in office for four years and didn't sign off on Keystone either.


Keystone was being built until Brandon shut it down, along with oil/gas leases on federal lands. 

bUt DrUmPf!!!!!


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Oh, I take it that none of you realize that all plastics, including those installed in EV's, are derived from fossil fuels? So that means we will have to continue drilling until we develop an alternative to plastic.


A. Not exclusively a downside of EVs, it's a downside of all car manufacturing, so would you prefer more public transport?  Because we'd be in agreement there.
B. We can start using more recycled plastics at any time, and some manufacturers already do.



TraderPatTX said:


> Not sure if any of you know that when windmills are done killing large birds of prey like the endangered golden eagle, they are disassembled and buried in landfills since fiberglass is unrecyclable.


Braindead nonsense you picked up from Trump.  There are parts of the country where we should avoid putting up wind turbines because they fall within migratory paths of certain species, but there's still plenty of other land to build on besides.

Do you actually care about reducing the cost and environmental footprint of energy generation or not?  Because you seem dead set on defending the current unsustainable way of doing things.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Sep 1, 2022)

Trader will only ever hold a position that negatively affects corporations if they tell him to first.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Sep 1, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Trader will only ever hold a position that negatively affects corporations if they tell him to first.


Dude would make a great corporate punching bag.

But back on topic, kinda expecting a housing crash, Should be dirt cheap in a few years for me to get a house and start planing my new mini theater to watch all of the sonic movies. NTM new gas prices are now down to 3.50 in my area. Waiting a bit untill it gose down to 2.xx before i get a car


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> A. Not exclusively a downside of EVs, it's a downside of all car manufacturing, so would you prefer more public transport?  Because we'd be in agreement there.
> B. We can start using more recycled plastics at any time, and some manufacturers already do.


Not all plastics can be recycled currently. So you are relying on yet another technology that we don't have to make a switch to green energy. This smells of you just want poor people to suffer so you can feel good about yourself.


Xzi said:


> Braindead nonsense you picked up from Trump.  There are parts of the country where we should avoid putting up wind turbines because they fall within migratory paths of certain species, but there's still plenty of other land to build on besides.


Yet, that doesn't happen.


Xzi said:


> Do you actually care about reducing the cost and environmental footprint of energy generation or not?  Because you seem dead set on defending the current unsustainable way of doing things.


Let's see how Europe fares this winter without natural gas. If chopping wood is your thing, then by all means, have at it. I live in a place that never gets cold, so I don't have to worry about it.

I know the green energy industrial complex is not serious because nuclear is never mentioned as an alternative. What you will create is mass death.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Not all plastics can be recycled currently.


You are in favor of slowly phasing out car-centric infrastructure to be replaced by public transport then.  Good to know.



TraderPatTX said:


> Yet, that doesn't happen.


So you think turbine manufacturers just really fucking hate birds for some reason?  And always build in migratory paths on purpose?  Looney conspiracy territory for sure.



TraderPatTX said:


> Let's see how Europe fares this winter without natural gas.


Sounds like you're cheering for human suffering _and_ implying we should be giving a war crime committing psychopath exactly what he wants, not a good look.


----------



## LainaGabranth (Sep 1, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Dude would make a great corporate punching bag.
> 
> But back on topic, kinda expecting a housing crash, Should be dirt cheap in a few years for me to get a house and start planing my new mini theater to watch all of the sonic movies. NTM new gas prices are now down to 3.50 in my area. Waiting a bit untill it gose down to 2.xx before i get a car


Here's hoping. The recent overvaluing of property in my area is starting to redpill me on decomodification of housing and if they keep raising my payments they're gonna make Ted Kaczynski look reasonable.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Sep 1, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Here's hoping. The recent overvaluing of property in my area is starting to redpill me on decomodification of housing and if they keep raising my payments they're gonna make Ted Kaczynski look reasonable.


Just you wait, gonna be so cheap ill buy trump tower with a penny


----------



## SScorpio (Sep 1, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Dude would make a great corporate punching bag.
> 
> But back on topic, kinda expecting a housing crash, Should be dirt cheap in a few years for me to get a house and start planing my new mini theater to watch all of the sonic movies. NTM new gas prices are now down to 3.50 in my area. Waiting a bit untill it gose down to 2.xx before i get a car


I've got bad news for you, expect gas prices to spike back up to over $5/gal in the second half of November. Price always go down in an election year and spike up after. Gas being as expensive as it is right before an election is concerning.

IMO housing prices will likely go down in areas that didn't get hit hard in the 2008 crash (CA, NY). But other areas will see a small blip, and maybe be down 10-15%. But when prices are going up that much per year does it matter? The stock market has been massively over inflated due to all the free money from the Fed. Now the rich are fleeing and moving to buying properly to rent out. There's a reason Black Rock and the like are buying up houses everywhere.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Sep 1, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> I've got bad news for you, expect gas prices to spike back up to over $5/gal in the second half of November. Price always go down in an election year and spike up after. Gas being as expensive as it is right before an election is concerning.
> 
> IMO housing prices will likely go down in areas that didn't get hit hard in the 2008 crash (CA, NY). But other areas will see a small blip, and maybe be down 10-15%. But when prices are going up that much per year does it matter? The stock market has been massively over inflated due to all the free money from the Fed. Now the rich are fleeing and moving to buying properly to rent out. There's a reason Black Rock and the like are buying up houses everywhere.


Evidence?


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> You are in favor of slowly phasing out car-centric infrastructure to be replaced by public transport then.  Good to know.


Where did I even mention public transportation? Besides, it doesn't work everywhere either.


Xzi said:


> So you think turbine manufacturers just really fucking hate birds for some reason?  And always build in migratory paths on purpose?  Looney conspiracy territory for sure.


Are you arguing that 10's of thousands of birds are not being killed my windmills every year?


Xzi said:


> Sounds like you're cheering for human suffering _and_ implying we should be giving a war crime committing psychopath exactly what he wants, not a good look.


Nobody forced Europe to buy all of their energy from Russia. In fact, Trump warned them that it was a bad idea. Those chose, unwisely and now poor Europeans are suffering.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Evidence?


You do understand that gas prices are down because the Strategic Oil Reserves are being drained right now. It is the lowest it's ever been since 1984. When that runs out, prices will, what did Obama say back in the day, oh yeah, necessarily skyrocket.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You do understand that gas prices are down because the Strategic Oil Reserves are being drained right now. It is the lowest it's ever been since 1984. When that runs out, prices will, what did Obama say back in the day, oh yeah, necessarily skyrocket.


Thanks for the evidence good sir, ill be on my way.


----------



## Yayo1990 (Sep 1, 2022)

In my region gas doesn't come (but yet again, having a somewhat tropical weather, It's not needed that much, since winters are pretty warm themselves), but fuel prices did go high as well. Luckily though, I use an electric scooter to move around the city though, although I wish I could use my car more.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Thanks for the evidence good sir, ill be on my way.


I gave you all you needed to go search on your own. I didn't realize I needed to spoon feed you evidence.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I gave you all you needed to go search on your own. I didn't realize I needed to spoon feed you evidence.


Man, really being an asshole, arent you?


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Where did I even mention public transportation? Besides, it doesn't work everywhere either.


I mentioned it, when you pointed out that all car manufacturing requires the use of a lot of plastics.  Avoiding the transition to EVs doesn't reduce our use of them, so clearly you prefer another alternative.



TraderPatTX said:


> Are you arguing that 10's of thousands of birds are not being killed my windmills every year?


Sure, I'll argue against that since it sounds like a number pulled straight from your ass.  Next you're gonna tell me that solar panels instantly barbeque any/all birds that pass over them.



TraderPatTX said:


> Nobody forced Europe to buy all of their energy from Russia.


And they don't.  Which is why European leaders have been saying for months now that it'll be a bit of a spike for a winter or two, but not nearly as bad as the reactionaries are claiming.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> Man, really being an asshole, arent you?


If treating you like an adult is being an asshole, then yes. I gave you all the tools you need to succeed. The rest is up to you.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If treating you like an adult is being an asshole, then yes. I gave you all the tools you need to succeed. The rest is up to you.


I asked for evidence..... then you sent me a list, i said thanks. then you insulted me.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> I mentioned it, when you pointed out that all car manufacturing requires the use of a lot of plastics.  Avoiding the transition to EVs doesn't reduce our use of them, so clearly you prefer another alternative.


You mentioning it doesn't mean I support whatever you mention. That doesn't even make sense. Does public transportation contain zero plastics?


Xzi said:


> Sure, I'll argue against that since it sounds like a number pulled straight from your ass.  Next you're gonna tell me that solar panels instantly barbeque any/all birds that pass over them.


Solar panels efficiency drops significantly in temperatures above 114 degrees and when they are covered in dust. Yet, almost all solar panels are installed in the hottest, dustiest parts of the country.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/...gher-temperatures-are-undermining-solar-power


Xzi said:


> And they don't.  Which is why European leaders have been saying for months now that it'll be a bit of a spike for a winter or two, but not nearly as bad as the reactionaries are claiming.


https://www.usnews.com/news/busines...ity-bills-alarm-europe-raise-fears-for-winter

Those sanctions are working so well too. So while poor Europeans will freeze to death this winter, Russia is making money hand over fist.

https://markets.businessinsider.com...first-half-prices-europe-energy-crisis-2022-8


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> I asked for evidence..... then you sent me a list, i said thanks. then you insulted me.


I'm in the habit of reading comments in a snarky way since that is mostly what I receive. Sorry about that. That's on me.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You mentioning it doesn't mean I support whatever you mention. That doesn't even make sense. Does public transportation contain zero plastics?


It would drastically reduce the amount of plastics required if not every individual felt they needed to own their own car, yes.  And sure, you don't have to support a reduction in our use of plastics at all, but that would also be an admission that you don't give a shit and were just concern trolling over their use in EVs.



TraderPatTX said:


> Solar panels efficiency drops significantly in temperatures above 114 degrees and when they are covered in dust. Yet, almost all solar panels are installed in the hottest, dustiest parts of the country.


And?  Solar panels don't need to operate at 100% efficiency at all times if we have enough of them.  The energy they provide is still far cheaper and still reduces our emissions a lot compared to oil/coal/natural gas.



TraderPatTX said:


> So while poor Europeans will freeze to death this winter


That's more of a concern in countries without strong social safety nets.  Most European countries will subsidize energy costs for individuals if they have to.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> I'm in the habit of reading comments in a snarky way since that is mostly what I receive. Sorry about that. That's on me.


Its ok.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> It would drastically reduce the amount of plastics required if not every individual felt they needed to own their own car, yes.  And sure, you don't have to support a reduction in our use of plastics at all, but that would also be an admission that you don't give a shit and were just concern trolling over their use in EVs.


People are going to have to be forced to give up their cars by government. Of course, you are all for the government forcing people to give up their free-dumbs.


Xzi said:


> And?  Solar panels don't need to operate at 100% efficiency at all times if we have enough of them.  The energy they provide is still far cheaper and still reduces our emissions a lot compared to oil/coal/natural gas.


They don't operate at 100% efficiency when in perfect working order. Average efficiency of current panels is 15-18%. High temperatures decrease efficiency by 10-25%. Dust reduces it even further. So your solar panels will be operating at less than 10% efficiency in desert locales. That's not sustainable.


Xzi said:


> That's more of a concern in countries without strong social safety nets.  Most European countries will subsidize energy costs for individuals if they have to.


Great, give government more power over people. That seems to always be the answer. What are they gonna do when factories and businesses start shutting down and people stop working and paying taxes? You gonna subsidize big business's energy costs too?


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> People are going to have to be forced to give up their cars by government.


The fuck are you on about now?  We have a capitalist government, they'd never even gently suggest people giving up car culture in America.  They'll force a transistion to all electric vehicles out of necessity, but that may still not be enough to combat climate change.

So I was right, you don't give a shit about the amount of plastic that's required by car manufacturing.  You just wanna argue for gas vehicles and against EVs.  Stop with the concern troll bullshitting.



TraderPatTX said:


> So your solar panels will be operating at less than 10% efficiency in desert locales. That's not sustainable.


Pretty damn sure using the sun for energy is indeed sustainable.  Your alternative of using every last drop of finite fossil fuels before transitioning to something else, is not.



TraderPatTX said:


> Great, give government more power over people.  You gonna subsidize big business's energy costs too?


Make up your goddamn mind.  Are you worried people will freeze to death, or are you worried corporations might lose a few percentage points in profit this year?


----------



## SyphenFreht (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If you take out a loan for a degree that does not ensure you make enough money to pay it back, then you received a shitty degree. Blame the colleges for even offering it.



Except many kids who get roped into these degrees are purposely misled and led on, which is exactly why the loan forgiveness program is struggling to be instilled. The blame is on the colleges and the loan companies. What part of that are you not understanding or agreeing with?



TraderPatTX said:


> You want poor minorities with no college degree to pay for the degrees of rich privileged white leftists with a master's in gender studies. Before you call me a racist, make sure you understand your position on this topic, because it is obvious that you don't.



I wasn't going to call you racist, you can do that all on your own.

However, I'm not sure minorities will be paying for these degrees. People seem to misunderstand that loan forgiveness means wiping away the debt; these companies are not getting paid if the debt is wiped. 



TraderPatTX said:


> Keystone was being built until Brandon shut it down, along with oil/gas leases on federal lands.



In July 2020 SCOTUS halted the pipelines construction and 6 months after Biden took office the pipeline developer abandoned the project after only 8% of the pipeline was finished. Blame Biden all you want, what's Trump's excuse for not signing an executive order to get the pipeline finished? He literally could've cited oil supply and demand considering the pandemic caused gas prices to skyrocket, but instead wasted his time signing permits that continuously got shot down.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> The fuck are you on about now?  We have a capitalist government, they'd never even gently suggest people giving up car culture in America.  They'll force a transistion to all electric vehicles out of necessity, but that may still not be enough to combat climate change.


What happens when people do not buy EV's? What's gonna be the government's next step? Are they gonna send the FBI to raid houses and steal cars?


Xzi said:


> So I was right, you don't give a shit about the amount of plastic that's required by car manufacturing.  You just wanna argue for gas vehicles and against EVs.  Stop with the concern troll bullshitting.


You haven't been right about anything.


Xzi said:


> Pretty damn sure using the sun for energy is indeed sustainable.  Your alternative of using every last drop of finite fossil fuels before transitioning to something else, is not.


If you are pretty damn sure, back it up with evidence like I did. Do you think that rare earth minerals are not finite? There's a reason why they are called rare earth minerals. Can you take a guess on why that is?


Xzi said:


> Make up your goddamn mind.  Are you worried people will freeze to death, or are you worried corporations might lose a few percentage points in profit this year?


People will freeze to death because companies will shut down and they won't be able to afford the exorbitant energy rates. It looks like I'm the only one in this exchange that cares about that.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> What happens when people do not buy EV's?


At some point they'll have no other option, gas vehicles will no longer be manufactured after 2035.  Always gotta drag Republicans kicking and screaming into the future, like the toddlers they are.



TraderPatTX said:


> Do you think that rare earth minerals are not finite?


Do you believe that solar panels and wind turbines get consumed at the same rate as gasoline/natural gas?



TraderPatTX said:


> People will freeze to death because companies will shut down and they won't be able to afford the exorbitant energy rates.


Most utility companies are publicly owned.  The rest aren't in any danger of going under.  Your concern trolling isn't even remotely valid in this scenario, so I'll take that as an admission you care more about corporate profit than the needs of the individual.


----------



## omgcat (Sep 1, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> It's the big scary anti-Nuclear folks. Nuclear is still the cleanest energy source we have in terms of scale.


sure, nuclear is the cleanest, but it also takes the longest (30 year average construction time per plant) and is limited to certain geographical locations (you need functional rivers so drought prone areas are out). fuck France had to turn theirs down/off because the river water got too hot a couple weeks ago. 

at this point renewables + batteries are the sole functional solution to our energy problem.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> At some point they'll have no other option, gas vehicles will no longer be manufactured after 2035.  Always gotta drag Republicans kicking and screaming into the future, like the toddlers they are.


Cubans still drive vehicles manufactured in the 1950's. Many people here in the US still drive classic cars. Learning how to be a car mechanic is not rocket science. Checkmate.


Xzi said:


> Do you believe that solar panels and wind turbines get consumed at the same rate as gasoline/natural gas?


Solar panels and wind turbines do not use rare earth materials. Wind turbines use fiberglass. The rare earth materials are consumed from all the massive batteries that will need to be manufactured to support your green utopia and it's not a one time purchase.


Xzi said:


> Most utility companies are publicly owned.  The rest aren't in any danger of going under.  Your concern trolling isn't even remotely valid in this scenario, so I'll take that as an admission you care more about corporate profit than the needs of the individual.


You can take it any way you wish. It doesn't make it true. Not sure why you so pro-freezing to death, but then again, leftism has historically been a death cult everywhere it's been tried.

BTW, arguing with emotion is not effective. You should try using facts some of the time.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Many people here in the US still drive classic cars. Learning how to be a car mechanic is not rocket science.  Checkmate.


Okay...you enjoy gas that's $20/gallon at that point, and I'll pretend to feel "owned."  



TraderPatTX said:


> Solar panels and wind turbines do not use rare earth materials. Wind turbines use fiberglass. The rare earth materials are consumed from all the massive batteries that will need to be manufactured to support your green utopia and it's not a one time purchase.


My "green utopia" has a lot more lightrail/walkable cities and a lot fewer cars, EV or otherwise.  So once again I'm proposing a solution while all you do is point out problems with everything except our current unsustainable system.  Daddy must be the CEO of an oil company.



TraderPatTX said:


> Not sure why you so pro-freezing to death


You're a fucking Republican dude.  You've always been on the pro-freezing to death side of things when it comes to the poor.  We have way more empty housing than we have homeless people, it's not and never has been an unsolvable problem so long as we ditch profit concerns.  To you I'm sure that's the same thing as punching Jesus in the dick, though.


----------



## omgcat (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Solar panels and wind turbines do not use rare earth materials. Wind turbines use fiberglass. The rare earth materials are consumed from all the massive batteries that will need to be manufactured to support your green utopia and it's not a one time purchase.


Iron air, and grid sized flow batteries are starting to commercialize, so the need for rare earth elements is going to drop drastically. on top of that lithium is 90+% recyclable. i'm not super worried about battery storage in even the medium term.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Okay...you enjoy gas that's $20/gallon at that point, and I'll pretend to feel "owned."


The market will dictate which direction we go.


Xzi said:


> My "green utopia" has a lot more lightrail/walkable cities and a lot fewer cars, EV or otherwise.  So once again I'm proposing a solution while all you do is point out problems with everything except our current unsustainable system.  Daddy must be the CEO of an oil company.


Your solutions create nothing but problems. Now your solution requires redesigning every city and town. 


Xzi said:


> You're a fucking Republican dude.  You've always been on the pro-freezing to death side of things when it comes to the poor.  We have way more empty housing than we have homeless people, it's not and never has been an unsolvable problem so long as we ditch profit concerns.  To you I'm sure that's the same thing as punching Jesus in the dick, though.


You mad, bro? Because you are still arguing with emotion. You should calm down before you start affecting your health. Your gonna end up like Fetterman if you keep this up.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

omgcat said:


> Iron air, and grid sized flow batteries are starting to commercialize, so the need for rare earth elements is going to drop drastically. on top of that lithium is 90+% recyclable. i'm not super worried about battery storage in even the medium term.


From what little that I've just read about it, it seems promising. If it works, great. I'm all about technological breakthroughs. We just need to be able to gather energy without massacring 100's of thousands of birds or filling up landfills with old windmills or filling up every square inch of uninhabitable land with solar panels that achieve 10% efficiency.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The market will dictate which direction we go.


Guess EVs win then, because every single car manufacturer is making more and more of them each year.  It's not like gas vehicles do any one particular thing better, and I say that as someone who very much likes his current (fuel efficient) gas vehicle.



TraderPatTX said:


> Your solutions create nothing but problems. Now your solution requires redesigning every city and town.


Which is already something we do anyway with constantly-expanding highways and roadways.  Every summer is a clusterfuck of construction work.



TraderPatTX said:


> Your gonna end up like Fetterman if you keep this up.


Why would I win a political race in PA if I'm not even running?  Back on topic, though: you obviously don't understand how subsidizing costs work if you think any company would "go out of business" should the government help out with energy bills.  The money gets paid either way.  Europeans have nothing to worry about, because they don't have assholes like you arguing in favor of letting them freeze to appease the stock market.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Guess EVs win then, because every single car manufacturer is making more and more of them each year.  It's not like gas vehicles do any one particular thing better, and I say that as someone who very much likes his current (fuel efficient) gas vehicle.


EV's can't haul loads. It's already been compared. EV's are inferior.


Xzi said:


> Which is already something we do anyway with constantly-expanding highways and roadways.  Every summer is a clusterfuck of construction work.


What you are calling for is a lot more complicated than expanding highways.


Xzi said:


> Why would I win a political race in PA if I'm not even running?  Back on topic, though: you obviously don't understand how subsidizing costs work if you think any company would "go out of business" should the government help out with energy bills.  The money gets paid either way.  Europeans have nothing to worry about, because they don't have assholes like you arguing in favor of letting them freeze to appease the stock market.


You know what I mean. Don't play coy.

Anything the government gets involved in makes it more expensive. See; education.


----------



## SScorpio (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Guess EVs win then, because every single car manufacturer is making more and more of them each year.  It's not like gas vehicles do any one particular thing better, and I say that as someone who very much likes his current (fuel efficient) gas vehicle.


Would being able to run your gas power car be better than an EV?

California last week, we but in place no internal combustion car will be sold here after 2035.
California this week, please don't charge your EV we don't have enough power.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Sep 1, 2022)

omgcat said:


> sure, nuclear is the cleanest, but it also takes the longest (30 year average construction time per plant) and is limited to certain geographical locations (you need functional rivers so drought prone areas are out). fuck France had to turn theirs down/off because the river water got too hot a couple weeks ago.


Apparently China has already solved the issue (or is about to).


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> EV's can't haul loads.


Wrong.  The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning is rated for 10,000 lbs towing capacity.  Electric trucks also boast better torque than their gas counterparts.



TraderPatTX said:


> What you are calling for is a lot more complicated than expanding highways.


Reducing the size of highways is more complicated than expanding them?  Nah.



TraderPatTX said:


> Anything the government gets involved in makes it more expensive. See; education.


Lmao that has to be your dumbest claim yet.  Public school is more expensive than private school?  Wat.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that our public utility companies here in Colorado are not more expensive than the rates Texans pay for privately-owned utilities.


----------



## stanna (Sep 1, 2022)

Every day on the news over here in the UK the government gives us the it's Putin's fault bollocks, he's raised the gas prices, but it's the government 's fault they won't buy gas off the Russians anymore, I want cheap gas again, I couldn't give a fuck about Ukraine it's all been fabricated to put up the cost of living, more tax money.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Lmao who do you think you're fooling?  Putin declared himself god-emperor of Russia about a decade ago now, and every election since has been transparently fraudulent.  The leader of his opposition was poisoned multiple times before being thrown in jail (presumably for life) on bogus charges.


These things happen in Russia. It does not prove government involvement, see Dugins daughter (or JFK in the US)


Xzi said:


> Horse shit.  The invasion is and always has been about attempting to seize Ukraine's resources/geographical position, and therefore it was always inevitable.


History proves you wrong: 2008 war in Georgia after NATO invitation, 2014 war in Ukraine after EU invitation which included a "common defence infrastructure" (i.e. NATO).


Xzi said:


> Clearly not, or there would be no international resistance to Putin's imperialist actions.  If in the modern day, superpowers got to invade and annex whichever countries they want, America would've annexed Russia for its oil decades ago.


LOL. The US did not annex Russia because at no point could Russia not have nuked the US. When does your country stop annexing Syria? Just because it is not colored differently on your map, does not mean it isn´t happening.


----------



## SScorpio (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Wrong.  The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning is rated for 10,000 lbs towing capacity.  Electric trucks also boast better torque than their gas counterparts.


Did you see the tests where it can only pull that load 70 miles on a full charge? Thankfully being a truck you can put a generator in the bed and get a longer range.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> These things happen in Russia.


Yeah, because it's run by a dictator who will never allow any real opposition to gain any power.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> History proves you wrong


Putin's own comments on the matter prove me right.  He dropped the facade long ago, it's pathetic that you aren't willing to do the same.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> When does your country stop annexing Syria?


Already done, it was more or less annexed by Russia years back when Trump pulled troops out of the region to go protect Saudi oil fields instead.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> Did you see the tests where it can only pull that load 70 miles on a full charge? Thankfully being a truck you can put a generator in the bed and get a longer range.


Yeah towing uses up a lot more fuel regardless of whether the vehicle is gas or electric.  Should be a given.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Wrong.  The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning is rated for 10,000 lbs towing capacity.  Electric trucks also boast better torque than their gas counterparts.


There is a difference between what Ford rates their vehicles and what they get in the real world. Somebody who has actually owned a car would know that.


Xzi said:


> Reducing the size of highways is more complicated than expanding them?  Nah.


Didn't realize you were an engineer.


Xzi said:


> Lmao that has to be your dumbest claim yet.  Public school is more expensive than private school?  Wat.
> 
> I can tell you with 100% certainty that our public utility companies here in Colorado are not more expensive than the rates Texans pay for privately-owned utilities.


My property taxes that pay specifically for school costs more than a year in private school. Somebody would know that if they had kids and actually owned property.

By all means, keep trying to dispute my claims with emotion. It's working out so well for you.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> There is a difference between what Ford rates their vehicles and what they get in the real world.


Your point being that gas vehicles are also worse for towing than their ratings would suggest?  That does not invalidate the fact that electric trucks are capable of towing, it just makes you pedantic.



TraderPatTX said:


> Didn't realize you were an engineer.


I was gonna go ask an engineer, but then my common sense started tingling.



TraderPatTX said:


> My property taxes that pay specifically for school costs more than a year in private school. Somebody would know that if they had kids and actually owned property.


Somebody who pays taxes would know they don't go to only one specific thing, sorry.


----------



## SScorpio (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Your point being that gas vehicles are also worse for towing than their ratings would suggest?  That does not invalidate the fact that electric trucks are capable of towing, it just makes you pedantic.



The towing ratings on EV trucks is just on how much weight it can tow, it doesn't list the distance.

Gas trucks of course also take a hit, things can very based on trim model, how one drives, type of traffic or constant speed etc. But a gas 2023 F-150 is rated at 24mpg for highway, but drops to 14mpg towing. The average smaller gas tank is 23 gal, so on a full tank you can get around 322 miles of towing, and be able to spend 10 mins to refuel and keep going.

That's over 4x the towing range of the Lightning. Heck the non-towing range of the Lightning is 300 miles, which is about 55% of the range of a gas that can get 550 miles not towing.

Just because Bob's Rickshaw is green only needing to fuel Bob and can get you five blocks in the city, it doesn't mean you'll want to use him for a cross country drive.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> The towing ratings on EV trucks is just on how much weight it can tow, it doesn't list the distance.
> 
> Gas trucks of course also take a hit, things can very based on trim model, how one drives, type of traffic or constant speed etc. But a gas 2023 F-150 is rated at 24mpg for highway, but drops to 14mpg towing. The average smaller gas tank is 23 gal, so on a full tank you can get around 322 miles of towing, and be able to spend 10 mins to refuel and keep going.
> 
> ...


If we're gonna get into the nitty-gritty, might as well get into the cost per mile then too, and the electric truck is gonna win that battle by leaps and bounds even with gas at its current (relatively low) price.  Thirteen years from now, towing efficiency of electric trucks will have improved, and the price per gallon of gas will be way up, making the switch to EVs even more of a no-brainer.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Your point being that gas vehicles are also worse for towing than their ratings would suggest?  That does not invalidate the fact that electric trucks are capable of towing, it just makes you pedantic.


I never said they were incapable of towing, EV's just can't tow as far as ICE vehicles without needing a lengthy recharge. It's been proven already.


Xzi said:


> I was gonna go ask an engineer, but then my common sense started tingling.


You should have asked an engineer instead of relying on the tingling in your pants.


Xzi said:


> Somebody who pays taxes would know they don't go to only one specific thing, sorry.


Schools are paid thru property taxes and other fees. No need to be sorry, I understand you are mentally handicapped.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> If we're gonna get into the nitty-gritty, might as well get into the cost per mile then too, and the electric truck is gonna win that battle by leaps and bounds even with gas at its current (relatively low) price.  Thirteen years from now, towing efficiency of electric trucks will have improved, and the price per gallon of gas will be way up, making the switch to EVs even more of a no-brainer.


Ok Marty McFly, if you have to bring your argument from the future to compare to present day vehicles, you have just lost. Good God man, have mercy on me. I can't take this level of stupidity any longer.


----------



## SScorpio (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> If we're gonna get into the nitty-gritty, might as well get into the cost per mile then too, and the electric truck is gonna win that battle by leaps and bounds even with gas at its current (relatively low) price.  Thirteen years from now, towing efficiency of electric trucks will have improved, and the price per gallon of gas will be way up, making the switch to EVs even more of a no-brainer.


I hope they are in 13 years or even less. I'm not anti-EV, but their expense and current limitations make them less than ideal. And we currently don't have anything in place to replace the batteries. Did you see the quote from a Florida dealership that wanted $29,000 to replace the batteries on a ten year old Chevy Bolt?

We should always try improving things and developing new technologies, but there are a huge number of things that have been "just five years away" for the last few decades. We need to plan with what you have, and be able to pivot if there are tech breakthroughs.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> You should have asked an engineer instead of relying on the tingling in your pants.


Again I would've, but it's obvious by now my downstairs brain knows more than the one you have upstairs.



TraderPatTX said:


> Schools are paid thru property taxes and other fees.


Which still doesn't amount to even half of what most private schools cost annually, nor does everybody pay property taxes, dipshit.



TraderPatTX said:


> Ok Marty McFly, if you have to bring your argument from the future to compare to present day vehicles, you have just lost. Good God man, have mercy on me. I can't take this level of stupidity any longer.


Fuckin' hell you must be illiterate.  My argument is that it's *ALREADY* much cheaper to move an electric truck twenty miles than it is to move a gas truck the same distance, whether it's being used to tow or not. Probably not even $0.50 for the electric truck, but a full gallon of gas (roughly $3.80) for the other truck.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

SScorpio said:


> I hope they are in 13 years or even less. I'm not anti-EV, but their expense and current limitations make them less than ideal. And we currently don't have anything in place to replace the batteries. Did you see the quote from a Florida dealership that wanted $29,000 to replace the batteries on a ten year old Chevy Bolt?
> 
> We should always try improving things and developing new technologies, but there are a huge number of things that have been "just five years away" for the last few decades. We need to plan with what you have, and be able to pivot if there are tech breakthroughs.


People get this argument and every other argument twisted. The left thinks people on the right just want to stick with what we have here. All I'm arguing is that moving the entire world to unproven technologies that are not as good as we have now is not a good idea and will lead to great human suffering. You already see it in Sri Lanka when the government mandated organic farming. People were starving and they ended up revolting. That's why people like @Xzi have to resort to using emotion based arguments which fail every single time.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Again I would've, but it's obvious by now my downstairs brain knows more than the one you have upstairs.


Those who have to brag have nothing to brag about.


Xzi said:


> Which still doesn't amount to even half of what private school costs annually, nor does everybody pay property taxes, dipshit.


Tell me you're not a homeowner without telling me you are a homeowner.


Xzi said:


> Fuckin' hell you must be illiterate.  My argument is that it's *ALREADY* much cheaper to move an electric truck twenty miles than it is to move a gas truck the same distance, whether it's being used to tow or not. Probably not even $0.50 for the electric truck, but a full gallon of gas (roughly $3.80) for the other truck.


Then prove your point or shut the fuck up. You never show proof and you use words like "probably" in your arguments. That means you have no idea what you are talking about and are just pulling numbers out of your ass.

I can see you are gonna be number 2 on my ignore list. Talking with you is pointless. A 4 year old with Down's syndrome can form better arguments than you can.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> All I'm arguing is that moving the entire world to unproven technologies that are not as good as we have now is not a good idea and will lead to great human suffering. You already see it in Sri Lanka when the government mandated organic farming. People were starving and they ended up revolting.


"I can't win this argument so I'm gonna pull an off-topic whataboutism out of my ass instead."


----------



## Xzi (Sep 1, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> Tell me you're not a homeowner without telling me you are a homeowner.


I'm not, nor do I share your psychological need to play make believe in that regard.  I know when I'm talking to a pre-teen who picked up all his political knowledge from Youtube.



TraderPatTX said:


> Then prove your point or shut the fuck up. You never show proof and you use words like "probably" in your arguments. That means you have no idea what you are talking about and are just pulling numbers out of your ass.


https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-cost-per-mile/

*"It costs from $0.0308 to $0.1132 per mile to drive an electric car."*

There, you whiny bitch.  So I underestimated a bit, it would cost roughly $1.20 on average to go twenty miles.  It costs a gas truck a little less than three times as much to go the same distance.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> "I can't win this argument so I'm gonna pull an off-topic whataboutism out of my ass instead."


Cry moar, dork.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 1, 2022)

Xzi said:


> I'm not, nor do I share your psychological need to play make believe in that regard.  I know when I'm talking to a pre-teen who picked up all his political knowledge from Youtube.


I get my experience from real life. Something you obviously lack.


Xzi said:


> https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-cost-per-mile/
> 
> *"It costs from $0.0308 to $0.1132 per mile to drive an electric car."*
> 
> There, you whiny bitch.  So I underestimated a bit, it would cost roughly $1.20 on average to go twenty miles.  It costs a gas truck a little less than three times as much to go the same distance.


We were discussing towing distance. *TOWING*.  See you don't even know what the whole discussion is about because you spend comment after comment crying about how I want people to freeze to death instead of staying on topic. Ffs, this is useless. Enjoy being number 2 on the block list. I'm sure you're accustomed to being number 2 though so this shouldn't bother you.


----------



## Nothereed (Sep 2, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> The market will dictate which direction we go.


except the market is surprise, influenced by lobbyists.
Aka
The market current winners primary goal is to prevent ANY change, through whatever means necessary, including but not limited to throwing immense amounts of cash behind someone who works for their special interests in the government, aka lobbying.

So "the market will dictate which direction we go" is a nothing burger answer, because it's already apart of how we got here in the first place. Because the market isn't people focused, it's profit focused. And if it's profitable to keep people on a declining industry and make the world burn with them, they'll do it.


----------



## Nothereed (Sep 2, 2022)

It's like saying "but if you do capitalism harder, the problem capitalism made will go away" no the fuck they won't. It won't solve people's wages, it won't solve climate change, it will not solve the homeless crisis, it won't solve the two tiered education system, or the two tiered healthcare system, or even the two tiered justice system.
Because that's what we have. Either your rich, get to live longer because you can afford the healthcare, and have some rich buddy who can help get you a degree. People's lives for the bottom 90% has fucking *decreased* in the age of modern medicine, because nobody can afford it. while the top 10 and 1% their live expectancy has gone up. And people have to take student loans because there is no Viable options that doesn't involve getting so heavily out priced that your forced into student loan debt.

Ontop of by the way, rich people dealing with pratically nothing fines because their profits are so high. While the bottom 90% if they get any high fine, that's game.


Oh and also the fact that capitalists are trying to say that because people live longer, they should work longer

Which if you realized that it's not the case for the bottom 90% of people. You'd realize it's just an excuse to keep wages down, and keep people working like busy little worker bees for much longer. Gen z if nothing changes, is the generation that likely will never be able to retire.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Sep 2, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Yeah, because it's run by a dictator who will never allow any real opposition to gain any power.


Careful what you wish for. The opposition in Russia is not what people think it is. More hardline than Putin, communists and others. "Liberals" (as in the US) are a minority.


Xzi said:


> Putin's own comments on the matter prove me right.  He dropped the facade long ago, it's pathetic that you aren't willing to do the same.


If it helps you to personify evil, go ahead.


Xzi said:


> Already done, it was more or less annexed by Russia years back when Trump pulled troops out of the region to go protect Saudi oil fields instead.


No, the US is annexing 1/3 of Syria. Syria keeps complaining at the UN, saying that the US is stealing Syrian oil. Get off your high horse. I´m neither American nor Russian, but Americans have no leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about war.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Sep 2, 2022)

Nothereed said:


> except the market is surprise, influenced by lobbyists.
> Aka
> The market current winners primary goal is to prevent ANY change, through whatever means necessary, including but not limited to throwing immense amounts of cash behind someone who works for their special interests in the government, aka lobbying.


And you know this how?


Nothereed said:


> So "the market will dictate which direction we go" is a nothing burger answer, because it's already apart of how we got here in the first place. Because the market isn't people focused, it's profit focused. And if it's profitable to keep people on a declining industry and make the world burn with them, they'll do it.


Of course it's profit focused. Do you think people are gonna work for free? Do you people even understand how economics works in the real world or you honestly believe the circle jerk theories you learned in class actually work?


----------



## Xzi (Sep 2, 2022)

Entire state deemed uninsurable due to the effects of climate change.  "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas," said one local Florida man.  More news at 11.


----------



## SScorpio (Sep 2, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Entire state deemed uninsurable due to the effects of climate change.  "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas," said one local Florida man.  More news at 11.


Much of Florida was deemed un-insurable due to being in a flood plan.

People bought cheap land and built there because it was cheap as no one wanted to build there. Surprisingly the areas flooded destroying people's homes and businesses. The Government decided we can't let that happened and is funding insurance themselves. Thus saving people from their terrible decisions.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 2, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Careful what you wish for. The opposition in Russia is not what people think it is. More hardline than Putin, communists and others. "Liberals" (as in the US) are a minority.


Well no shit, Putin already poisoned and jailed all the reasonable opposition.  What opponents he has that still remain free are much more likely to resort to car bombs and such.  That's called reaping what you sow.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> If it helps you to personify evil, go ahead.


Imperialism is evil, yes.  Putin puts a modern face to it, but it was just as evil when the Bush administration engaged in it.



UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Americans have no leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about war.


On the contrary, it's most important for citizens of warmongering nations to stand against it in protest and active resistance.  Just as many Russian citizens are doing right now, though it seems you'd rather silence their voices in favor of the masses who fear Putin.


----------



## City (Sep 2, 2022)

Update: tonight was cold, fall is coming, parents are bitching about heating already. Might need to bring them home sooner than I thought. FML.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Sep 3, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Well no shit, Putin already poisoned and jailed all the reasonable opposition.  What opponents he has that still remain free are much more likely to resort to car bombs and such.  That's called reaping what you sow.


You now nothing about Russia. "Liberals" have never been a threat to Putin. E.g. Navalny got popular by exposing (or claiming; I can´t varify the claims) corruption in the government. But regarding his political views, he would be considered a right-wing extremist in Europe and the US.

I don´t want to silence anyone. But before you criticize other countries, perhaps you should first make your own country stop illegal wars and occupations.


----------



## City (Sep 3, 2022)

Russia shut down the main tube that gives Europe its gas, claiming "malfunctions", and that they have no date on whether it will be fixed.

This is important news because:

- Russia has literally nothing left to use as leverage
- If Europe manages to have less than minor damage from this, Russia is done
- If Europe doesn't manage this issue properly, several thousands will suffer in the cold, but millions will suffer the consequences of companies being unable to sustain themselves with the upcoming spike in prices and resource scarcity


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Sep 3, 2022)

City said:


> Russia shut down the main tube that gives Europe its gas, claiming "malfunctions", and that they have no date on whether it will be fixed.
> 
> This is important news because:
> 
> ...


Russia had tens of millions of deaths when Hitler attacked and it was not "done". Germans are "done" once the room temperature goes below 20°C.
Russia continues to have its resources as leverage, for about a hundred years.


----------



## City (Sep 3, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Russia had tens of millions of deaths when Hitler attacked and it was not "done". Germans are "done" once the room temperature goes below 20°C.
> Russia continues to have its resources as leverage, for about a hundred years.


And what is Russia going to do now? What can they threaten us with? Blackmailing us with nukes didn't work, invading Ukraine didn't work, threatening Finland by moving troops didn't work, now they cut off the gas resources. What's left? Nothing.

Maybe they can order to step to Poland and get annhilated by NATO and EU forces, but that's about it.


----------



## Xzi (Sep 3, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Navalny got popular by exposing (or claiming; I can´t varify the claims) corruption in the government. But regarding his political views, he would be considered a right-wing extremist in Europe and the US.


So hilariously incorrect.  Anybody who's willing to invade neighboring countries on a whim is a right-wing extremist by any standard.  If Nalvalny was the same kind of leader, Putin would love him.


----------



## UltraDolphinRevolution (Sep 3, 2022)

City said:


> And what is Russia going to do now? What can they threaten us with? Blackmailing us with nukes didn't work, invading Ukraine didn't work, threatening Finland by moving troops didn't work, now they cut off the gas resources. What's left? Nothing.


Russia is going to seperate from the West and turn towards Asia, as it has been doing for about two decades. But now it´s irreversible.


Xzi said:


> So hilariously incorrect.  Anybody who's willing to invade neighboring countries on a whim is a right-wing extremist by any standard.  If Nalvalny was the same kind of leader, Putin would love him.


He exposed/declared Putin as corrupt.
Navalny compared Muslim migrants to cockroaches in a youtube video and supported the slogan Russia for Russians. He was also for the integration of break-away regions in Georgia and Moldova into Russia.
The West simply supports him because they see him as a threat to Russia. The West has no problem cooperating with terrorists and Nazis as long as it serves their interests.
I didn´t say Putin was not extremely right-wing. You are inconsistent if you support Navalny. What would you call an anti-immigration person who compares peoples to cockroaches and supports expansionism?


----------



## City (Sep 3, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> Russia is going to seperate from the West and turn towards Asia, as it has been doing for about two decades. But now it´s irreversible.


Yeah good luck with that. The Chinese government has shown many times that they're afraid of being involved in sanctions. The only two asian countries I see supporting Russia are India and North Korea. The former, despite being rich "on paper", has the majority of its population being poor. Russia is never going to find another economics partner like the EU.


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## LainaGabranth (Sep 3, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> What part of that are you not understanding or agreeing with?


The part where Trader's favorite people, corporations and big banks, get held accountable. God forbid someone on the right ever hold market manipulators accountable for anything.


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## SyphenFreht (Sep 3, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> The part where Trader's favorite people, corporations and big banks, get held accountable. God forbid someone on the right ever hold market manipulators accountable for anything.



Which is hilarious, because a couple weeks ago in one of the locked threads he was whining about all the corporate bootlickers around here like, I can't even fathom the kind of delusional hallucination he lives in on the day to day. 

Republicans are supposed to be small government, which is fine as long as there is a clear and distinct separation of government and big corporation, of which there isn't. So now you have Republicans supporting a smaller government in favor of corporate lobbying, which is great if you profit from big corporation. The problem is not everyone can be big corp, therefore not everyone can profit from it. Democrats aren't much better in this regard either, and yet instead of arguing over non bipartisan tactics or installing an equal financial footing for all people, we're instead treated to the rantings of an individual that hates members of his own political party because they don't Republican hard enough


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## LainaGabranth (Sep 3, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> Which is hilarious, because a couple weeks ago in one of the locked threads he was whining about all the corporate bootlickers around here like, I can't even fathom the kind of delusional hallucination he lives in on the day to day.


Yeah it's why a lot of the time I don't really reply to him, because all I have to do is exist and he'll reply with some mentally ill copium.



SyphenFreht said:


> Republicans are supposed to be small government, which is fine as long as there is a clear and distinct separation of government and big corporation, of which there isn't.


While you're entirely correct, there's a necessary distinction to make imo in that republicans (and conservatives in general, especially the rising far right contingent within them)  pretty much write their policies and platforms on vibes. It's why every right wing political position is neurotic, indescribable shit like "family values" and so on. Every one of them have to virtue signal to their constituents about how much they fellate the hypocritical "founding fathers," how an outdated piece of paper governs their lives, their dedication to a religion, and so on and so forth.

It's exceedingly dumb, not to mention ridiculous, that so many people who just kinda believe in whatever the fuck they make up at that moment have arbitrarily decided that all progress is bad, because their misinterpretation of the Bible says so, or because some rich oil baron/energy sector shitdick told them to hold such a stance. Hell, just look at the arguments you hear from the energy lobby against nuclear and green power.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Sep 3, 2022)

City said:


> Yeah good luck with that. The Chinese government has shown many times that they're afraid of being involved in sanctions. The only two asian countries I see supporting Russia are India and North Korea. The former, despite being rich "on paper", has the majority of its population being poor. Russia is never going to find another economics partner like the EU.


China is not afraid. It simply does not support the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It also has good relationship with Ukraine.


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## SyphenFreht (Sep 3, 2022)

LainaGabranth said:


> Yeah it's why a lot of the time I don't really reply to him, because all I have to do is exist and he'll reply with some mentally ill copium.



At this point I'm using it as a healthy outlet for my need to diminish people. Certain people you can't reason with, so you might as well sprinkle some self therapy in there to make it enjoyable. 



LainaGabranth said:


> While you're entirely correct, there's a necessary distinction to make imo in that republicans (and conservatives in general, especially the rising far right contingent within them)  pretty much write their policies and platforms on vibes. It's why every right wing political position is neurotic, indescribable shit like "family values" and so on. Every one of them have to virtue signal to their constituents about how much they fellate the hypocritical "founding fathers," how an outdated piece of paper governs their lives, their dedication to a religion, and so on and so forth.
> 
> It's exceedingly dumb, not to mention ridiculous, that so many people who just kinda believe in whatever the fuck they make up at that moment have arbitrarily decided that all progress is bad, because their misinterpretation of the Bible says so, or because some rich oil baron/energy sector shitdick told them to hold such a stance. Hell, just look at the arguments you hear from the energy lobby against nuclear and green power.



Dead on. They're smart in the fact that they dug their claws into this psuedo 1950's style of family values and blind nationalism *hiding* this impending reach of oppressive Christianity and successfully instilled it into generations of families all across America to solidify their footing. Now that the newer generations of non Republicans are becoming more and more numerous and outspoken, it's creating this societal shift and this new age dynamic of self value over all and conservatives are clearly not happy. It's becoming harder and harder to control people en masse, which shifts the global perspective, not to mention America's. 

What I find the most horrifying is how some of these Republican ideals are becoming less stigmatized; concepts like racism, sexism, classism, so on and such, are becoming synonymous with the Republican party and people are just like, ok with it. These people are not embarrassed, they wear their hatred with pride, and it's just ok because they're allowed to spew their vitriol because of the first amendment. 

I'm a firm believer that while everyone has a right to freedom of speech, not everyone should be given a platform from which to announce it en masse.


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## LainaGabranth (Sep 3, 2022)

SyphenFreht said:


> Dead on. They're smart in the fact that they dug their claws into this psuedo 1950's style of family values and blind nationalism *hiding* this impending reach of oppressive Christianity and successfully instilled it into generations of families all across America to solidify their footing. Now that the newer generations of non Republicans are becoming more and more numerous and outspoken, it's creating this societal shift and this new age dynamic of self value over all and conservatives are clearly not happy. It's becoming harder and harder to control people en masse, which shifts the global perspective, not to mention America's.


I believe that if your platform isn't built on something tangible and demonstrable, you shouldn't have it as a politician. IE, if you go around talking about "family values," you should be able to name at least five specific things and with each, reasons why they're important that fall under that umbrella. American politics' obsession with fucking buzzwords in everything is the stupidest shit ever, and it's even more stupid that people fall for this shit. All you have to do is say something like "small government" and a bunch of people will soy out in excitement for it before they get fucked to hell by corporations revoking their right to repair their tractors and trucks, and their tax dollars go to another war with some country in the middle east.

All around revolting system.


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## TraderPatTX (Sep 4, 2022)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> China is not afraid. It simply does not support the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It also has good relationship with Ukraine.


China, Brazil and India have teamed up with Russia to call for investigations into US biolabs in Ukraine back in March.


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