# Why do anti pirates come to a homebrew forum mostly used for piracy?



## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

It makes no sense. You don't see me going to a My Little Pony forum to tell off about how I dislike their show, how its shit and watch something else. Its a waste of your time, other members time, and moderators time to stop the flame wars that ensue from this. If someone has decided they do not want to buy games and come here to learn how to get their shit for free they aren't gonna be swayed away because one holier than thou person told them its wrong, they aren't gonna suddenly see the error of their ways and stop pirating so please go to another forum for whatever interest you if that isn't homebrew. I'm not saying homebrew is purely for piracy but the intent of most users is to acquire access to pirated goods.

I say this as someone who doesn't pirate at all, I pay for all my games and I am not for or against piracy. I'm not bothered if someone is playing a game that I had to pay for but I'm sure as hell not gonna tell them off and act like their mother. Leave that shit at the door and act like an adult. I know of 3 anti pirates off the top of my head that lurks these forums, you know who you are.


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## Clydefrosch (Nov 9, 2015)

why do you come to a forum mostly used for piracy (really?) even though you're no pirate?

because you can i guess


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## Selim873 (Nov 9, 2015)

I like to use mods for my already owned games (HANS).  I like to play backups of games I've personally ripped myself (Or downloaded if I don't have a method for ripping) on the emulators, and I like ports of games that already exist, like Quake.  I also love Region Free so I don't have to buy a second system, since I'll be playing MHX on my European system, and I'm able to just go to a GameStop to pick up American copies of games and play them on my system.  I have a European system because of the faceplates.  The small N3DS was originally, and officially, never supposed to release here in America.  That's why I imported.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

Clydefrosch said:


> why do you come to a forum mostly used for piracy (really?) even though you're no pirate?
> 
> because you can i guess


For the homebrew?

The keywords is "mostly for piracy"

I enjoy using homebrew for region free, mods, and cheating. That's my reasons.


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## VinsCool (Nov 9, 2015)

Because? Because, some support that, some don't I guess.


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## ieatpixels (Nov 9, 2015)

I think this site has enough pro-piracy to satisfy the average pirate, especially when new exploits are developed and released here.
We need the off-balance to keep things civil. Homebrew and mods is a much richer experience than simply not paying for games. 
Though if it were one or the other I'd pick piracy.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

VinsCool said:


> Because? Because, some support that, some don't I guess.


Which is why I suggested to go somewhere else to a forum of their interest. Its a waste of everyone's time, including the anti pirates.


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## Veho (Nov 9, 2015)

> Why do anti pirates come to a homebrew forum mostly used for piracy?



Because the forum has a wide range of other content that they may be interested in.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

Veho said:


> Because the forum has a wide range of other content that they may be interested in.


But the focus of the forum is homebrew. I'm not telling anti pirates to go piss off, just to go somewhere else that focuses on what interests them cause clearly its not homebrew/piracy.


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## Veho (Nov 9, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> But the focus of the forum is homebrew.


And homebrew does not equal piracy.


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## VinsCool (Nov 9, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> *But the focus of the forum is homebrew.* I'm not telling anti pirates to go piss off, just to go somewhere else that focuses on what interests them cause *clearly its not homebrew/piracy.*


But homebrew !=Piracy right?


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

Veho said:


> And homebrew does not equal piracy.


MOSTLY, I'm fully aware there is more to homebrew than that.


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## Margen67 (Nov 9, 2015)

I don't think the problem is the fact they're against piracy. It's the fact they get offended I pirate games from their ~precious company~
And yeah I agree with the OP in the "They won't see the ~error of their ways~" statement.
"Oh no. I took 20$ from Nintendo. How could they possibly survive this? I'm a horrible person. I'm gonna start buying games now." -said no pirate ever
Fanboys also think people pirate games only to be cheap. (Which isn't true.)
Not everybody can get a job to afford games.
And no, just because I have a 100-200$ console doesn't mean I can afford a 60$ game.


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## The Catboy (Nov 9, 2015)

Because GBAtemp isn't _just _about priacy, we cover a large variety of topics, piracy just happens to be one of them.


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## ody81 (Nov 9, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> It makes no sense. You don't see me going to a My Little Pony forum to tell off about how I dislike their show, how its shit and watch something else. Its a waste of your time, other members time, and moderators time to stop the flame wars that ensue from this. If someone has decided they do not want to buy games and come here to learn how to get their shit for free they aren't gonna be swayed away because one holier than thou person told them its wrong, they aren't gonna suddenly see the error of their ways and stop pirating so please go to another forum for whatever interest you if that isn't homebrew. I'm not saying homebrew is purely for piracy but the intent of most users is to acquire access to pirated goods.
> 
> I say this as someone who doesn't pirate at all, I pay for all my games and I am not for or against piracy. I'm not bothered if someone is playing a game that I had to pay for but I'm sure as hell not gonna tell them off and act like their mother. Leave that shit at the door and act like an adult. I know of 3 anti pirates off the top of my head that lurks these forums, you know who you are.



It's not really anti-piracy minded people that wreck the forum, it's the people that absolutely HAVE to tell everybody in the world how opposed they are to piracy and 'pirating scum'. Because they KNOW their opinion matters so much that everybody needs to hear it at every opportunity. Simple narcissism.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

Everyone please reread the topic. I never once said homebrew=piracy.

Please read carefully.


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## VinsCool (Nov 9, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> Everyone please reread the topic. I never once said homebrew=piracy.
> 
> Please read carefully.


What's this then?


RemixDeluxe said:


> But the focus of the forum is *homebrew.* I'm not telling *anti pirates* to go piss off, just to *go somewhere else* that focuses on what* interests* them cause* clearly its not homebrew/piracy.*


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

VinsCool said:


> What's this then?


Its me saying that if homebrew and/or piracy isn't of their interest then they should go elsewhere. Whats your point?


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## Sterling (Nov 9, 2015)

Forum population is determined by content and content is determined by the population. GameFAQs for instance is primarily a games website devoted to FAQs yet you see they have forums not dedicated to their guides and games.

Here on GBAtemp you can clearly see the site content in the forum view. We have social boards, games discussions, blogs, forum games, irc chat, news, catalogues, trading section, music books and movies, etc. We have loads more to offer than singular content like homebrew.

There's your answer: mass appeal. I don't even download games all that often any more yet I still come to GBAtemp for literally any other reason because I like the community and potential content. That includes anti and pro piracy discussions.

EDIT: The forum stopped being mainly about homebrew the year I joined, or slightly before.


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## VinsCool (Nov 9, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> Its me saying that if homebrew and/or piracy isn't of their interest then they should go elsewhere. Whats your point?


You specifically stated homebrew and piracy to be one, which isn't.

Someone may get interest in homebrews, piracy, or both.
So, My point here, is that, one could support homebrews and despites piracy.


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## cdoty (Nov 9, 2015)

Clydefrosch said:


> why do you come to a forum mostly used for piracy (really?) even though you're no pirate?



Going back to the SNES and Genesis and later PSX and N64, it was the only way to develop on these consoles without a license. Most of the people creating the tools weren't connected to piracy, but the whole scene was intertwined with piracy. It's still the same today, homebrew is possible on the 3DS because of a piracy device.


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## morvoran (Nov 9, 2015)

I believe the OP means "why do anti-pirates come here and complain about piracy?".  The reason for that is some people have nothing better to do with their lives then complain, argue, and let everybody else know how superior their opinion is over other's.
I really like how somebody against piracy will come here and talk about how pirates need to support the developers and then talk about how they buy all their games second hand.  Just a bunch of hypocrites.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

morvoran said:


> I believe the OP means "why do anti-pirates come here and complain about piracy?".  The reason for that is some people have nothing better to do with their lives then complain, argue, and let everybody else know how superior their opinion is over other's.
> I really like how somebody against piracy will come here and talk about how pirates need to support the developers and then talk about how they buy all their games second hand.  Just a bunch of hypocrites.


People who buy games used are far worse than pirates imo. But that's a whole other topic I wont get into.


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## TecXero (Nov 9, 2015)

I enjoy homebrew but I'm against piracy. I don't bother trying to convince others to not pirate, though. That would be a waste of time and energy. I even understand why some people pirate.


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## Meteor7 (Nov 9, 2015)

Well, because if you tell non-pirates that pirating is bad, what would that change? I feel like that would be the really nonsensical thing to do. People don't just talk to talk, they talk to create an influence, and preaching a message to people who already believe it won't change anything.

Not to say that I'm necessarily on one side or the other, just that it makes sense for someone to do that.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 9, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> Well, because if you tell non-pirates that pirating is bad, what would that change? I feel like that would be the really nonsensical thing to do. People don't just talk to talk, they talk to create an influence, and preaching a message to people who already believe it won't change anything.
> 
> Not to say that I'm necessarily on one side or the other, just that it makes sense for someone to do that.


Thats the thing, it really doesnt make sense and I doubt a faceless random on the internet is gonna make them change all of a sudden. If they are so anti pirate and wholeheartedly support the games they play then they should go to a gaming site like Gamefaqs.com as someone suggested as an example.


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## Veho (Nov 9, 2015)

Something was telling me the thread would end up this way and then it did.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 10, 2015)

Sorry for the interruption from yesterday, hopefully the topic can stay on track and not derail. Lets keep this civil please.


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## Meteor7 (Nov 10, 2015)

Oh bugger, I had something really good written out, but it was lost when the topic got locked. Well, it was basically saying that you must not think that it's impossible for a "faceless random" to have an impact on anyone's behavior or way of thinking, otherwise you wouldn't have made this topic, right? Besides, your argument could easily be turned backwards on you by telling you that you should keep quiet and go play with other like-minded people, but I definitely think that that wouldn't help anyone. In fact, it would be very insulting and disrespectful, or at least I would feel that way were it said to me, being told that no-one wants to hear your opinion and to go play at the kids table. Arguments and conflicting ideas are necessary to change and evolve our ideals. If you have a problem with something somebody is doing, tell it to the people doing it. This is what you did, just like the people you admonish.


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## Sicklyboy (Nov 10, 2015)

Friendly reminder to everyone that if your posts are inflammatory or contribute nothing to the discussion, you will be removed from the thread if deemed to be a problem. No reason we can't all play nice in here, we're all adults... Not really, but at least pretend.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 10, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> Oh bugger, I had something really good written out, but it was lost when the topic got locked. Well, it was basically saying that you must not think that it's impossible for a "faceless random" to have an impact on anyone's behavior or way of thinking, otherwise you wouldn't have made this topic, right? Besides, your argument could easily be turned backwards on you by telling you that you should keep quiet and go play with other like-minded people, but I definitely think that that wouldn't help anyone. In fact, it would be very insulting and disrespectful, or at least I would feel that way were it said to me, being told that no-one wants to hear your opinion and to go play at the kids table. Arguments and conflicting ideas are necessary to change and evolve our ideals. If you have a problem with something somebody is doing, tell it to the people doing it. This is what you did, just like the people you admonish.


I enjoy heated debate and like to hear the reasonings from both sides. When I say a "faceless random" shouldn't have any impact I didn't mean that in an insulting way but more that because they are an unknown is why SHOULD you care what they think you do, it doesn't effect them at all so they should mind their business and not act like a mother.


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## Hells Malice (Nov 10, 2015)

As Veho said this is a fairly broad and diverse gaming forum network and sometimes you stumble onto things you're against. It's pretty easy actually. I see stuff on the front page or in recent comments all the time I then go and give my negative opinion on, cuz I can.


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## XavyrrVaati (Nov 10, 2015)

This is a site aimed at both piracy and homebrew. Some people like on and absolutely condemn the other. I see people comment on Smealum's twitter post about a new homebrew exploit, and they say it's worthless because it's not a kernel exploit. People have opinions and they simply believe in them so much that they are reality. They are right, and you are wrong and there isn't a thing in the world you can say or do to change that. That aside, this is the internet and you can go about telling people what's wrong and right, or you can tell them where to shove their moral compass. As for me,  I don't care what you do. I think _stealing_ is wrong. Piracy is not stealing to me, and I don't have much issue with it. However, I buy all the things I like, because I like them. 3DS? Bought it, games for it? Bought em'. Why? Because buying them makes them make more. Maybe not singularly my purchase doesn't change much, but collectively with others who do the same, it does. But in 10 years when I want to replay Fire Emblem if, and my 3DS is dead or whatever, and we have emulators to play it. I'm totally going to download it and play. At that point _the people who put their heart into it would no longer benefit from a VC purchase_, therefor piracy and emulation wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

(Also I'm tired and I worked all day so this might not makes sense or be a lame rant. Oops.)


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## Myria (Nov 10, 2015)

I don't involve myself with piracy, but this is still a useful site.  I just don't judge people who do pirate, since I know what site I'm on.


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## stanleyopar2000 (Nov 10, 2015)

Anti-Pirate??...uh huh. Yeah. we just Frontin'


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## CeeDee (Nov 10, 2015)

This is mostly used for piracy, not all. 

It'd be like going to a forum about cartoons where most of everyone's a MLP fan and you're the weeaboo neckbeard hypocrite hating on MLP. 

But here, you go to a forum about hacking where most of everyone illegally downloads games and you're the butthurt gamer who doesn't know how to use torrent services and has to pay for their games.


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## Nano. (Nov 10, 2015)

Your My Little Pony forum comparison is a bit off (｡´∀｀)ﾉ


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## Armadillo (Nov 10, 2015)

There's a lot of other stuff here these days, at least compared to how it used to be (when it was basically just gba flashcart and rom discussion). So people sign up for other stuff.

It's the drive by anti-piracy shit posting that is the problem, in topics where it has no place. Which for some reason, even when reported seems to be tolerated. While the reverse (piracy talk in topics where it has no place, like hombrew with ap), gets deleted.


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## Hells Malice (Nov 10, 2015)

Veho said:


> Something was telling me the thread would end up this way and then it did.



You don't need to be a prophet to predict THAT outcome on the internet, lol.


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## gudenau (Nov 10, 2015)

Because this place is not for piracy. If you want that use Google.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 10, 2015)

gudenaurock said:


> Because this place is not for piracy. If you want that use Google.


Such a fallacy. Thats like saying guns dont kill people.


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## gudenau (Nov 10, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> Such a fallacy. Thats like saying guns dont kill people.





> *"Warez" - ROMs, WADs & ISOs*
> 
> "Warez" is an internet term used to describe copyrighted software, game, film, music and data piracy.
> 
> ...


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## amoulton (Nov 10, 2015)

Hells Malice said:


> I see stuff on the front page or in recent comments all the time I then go and give my negative opinion on


because the aforementioned 





ody81 said:


> Simple narcissism


 keeps people from being able to 





RemixDeluxe said:


> mind their business





gudenaurock said:


> We do not condone piracy in any way.


This is called legal indemnification. Piracy is the term for literally sharing and stealing copywritten material. That is not allowed here. Homebrew software that allows the playing of backups is not in and of itself piracy, but it A) obviously allows piracy and B) is most certainly a notable feature of this site.


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## Kippykip (Nov 10, 2015)

Because if you actually admit that you pirate, they think they'll get banned.
So people BS saying they never pirate ever.


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## wormdood (Nov 10, 2015)

hi wormdood here long time crook,  criminal,  and pirate as well as ex-thief (yes there is a difference)
i want say a few thing if i may (and of course i can as can the so-called "anti pirates") because we can are allowed to do so as long as we don't break (major) laws or intentionally insult, attack, or otherwise flame people.  we are allowed to say as we wish like the case is in many open forums
as a long standing pirate i feel its perfectly fine for the anti-pirate to not only have his opinion but also the ability to share it openly as long as its done in a respectful manner.  (without putting someone down or otherwise trying to belittle them and/their choices/life) just as a pirate should be allowed to say openly something like "i grew watching bootleg movies all my life when i learned what that ment i was appalled  . . . i had been paying for what others (like the bootleger) got for free" or when someone is trying to recover games from a _lost or stolen_ system say "you know piracy *is* always an option"

and @amoulton  totally nailed it

also @gudenaurock those rules you quoted do not prove the intent of this site only its fear of being shutdown gbatemp was originally "the place" to go specifically for links to the last 10 gba roms hence gbatemp (game boy advance temporaries) GBAtemp.net#History


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## gudenau (Nov 10, 2015)

wormdood said:


> hi wormdood here long time crook,  criminal,  and pirate as well as ex-thief (yes there is a difference)
> i want say a few thing if i may (and of course i can as can the so-called "anti pirates") because we can are allowed to do so as long as we don't break (major) laws or intentionally insult, attack, or otherwise flame people.  we are allowed to say as we wish like the case is in many open forums
> as a long standing pirate i feel its perfectly fine for the anti-hacker to not only have his opinion but also the ability to share it openly as long as its done in a respectful manner.  (without putting someone down or otherwise trying to belittle them and/their choices/life) just as a pirate should be allowed to say openly something like "i grew watching bootleg movies all my life when i learned what that ment i was appalled  . . . i had been paying for what others (like the bootleger) got for free" or when someone is trying to recover games from a _lost or stolen_ system say "you know piracy *is* always an option"
> 
> ...


I am well aware of how this site was, I just want to make sure the rules are known.


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## VinsCool (Nov 10, 2015)

wormdood said:


> anti-hacker


Hack != Piracy goddammit.


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## wormdood (Nov 10, 2015)

whoops gotta edit that sorry
but as others have mentioned the average hacker does so for that reason  . . . if you *honestly* do it for another reason then consider yourself special


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## Meteor7 (Nov 10, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> I enjoy heated debate and like to hear the reasonings from both sides. When I say a "faceless random" shouldn't have any impact I didn't mean that in an insulting way but more that because they are an unknown is why SHOULD you care what they think you do, it doesn't effect them at all so they should mind their business and not act like a mother.



Well, the only argument one could ever hope to make in any situation is one that plays to the other person's logic or desires. If, say, someone was trying to steal from you and you began arguing only about how unhappy you would be, if they had no interest in your personal happiness, then the argument would be completely void. For the case of the argument against piracy, the argument should be not about morals, something completely subjective, but about the outcome of the act, namely, damage to the industry that both parties have interest in. In that sense, the argument would be valid only if both parties valued the continued development of games or some similarly, mutually agreed, "good" outcome. If the pirate has no interest or respect for the games industry at all, then yeah, the argument would be dust in the wind.

As for thinking that "it doesn't affect them at all", then I have to argue that yes, of course it does. It affects the industry and, subsequently, everyone who partakes in its labors. Not only does piracy dissuade game companies from publishing games for certain consoles, but it also causes them to implement a great number of anti-piracy measures that heavily impede the efforts of the modding community. If people didn't pirate, game companies would have no need for the encryptions and DRM and all that other bull that gets in the way of player and modder alike, and gaming would be, in my opinion, a nicer experience as a whole. Take the Vita, for example. It's a huge upgrade from the PSP in terms of processing power, graphics, style, yada yada, but it's still a chained beast in comparison to the PSP's simple yet free state. The PSP is a notoriously/famously easy to hack console, which has led to people creating some absolutely wonderful emulators and tools to run on the PSP which have given me personally a uniquely diverse and entertaining experience with the system. The Vita, on the other hand, is locked down so hard that it not only impedes hackers (the harmful pirates and the harmless modders alike), but it even blockades the end user in a number of obtuse and uncalled-for ways, the need to re-format the Vita every time you want to change accounts being just one such example. If piracy did not exist, or even if piracy were not such a widespread occurrence, the game companies would never have had the incentive to lock-down systems like this. The Vita isn't the only console which has suffered from this problem, either. Remember the Xbox One with all its "no used games" and "daily DRM" awfulness? All of that was in an effort to quash piracy. Granted, most of those things have been removed, but only after the community got all uppity about them. Game companies do this kind of crap all the time, and they will continue to do so so long as piracy is still a major player in their bottom line. 

Now, looping back to my original thoughts on arguments, if you are a pirate and this kind of thing doesn't matter to you, well, then there really is no reason at all that you shouldn't pirate. The argument becomes valid when someone can appeal to a common "good", a desired outcome that both parties share a desire for, and I believe there exists one for the argument against piracy, otherwise, I would have to agree with you completely.


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## Online (Nov 10, 2015)

to re-affirm their beliefs and bias


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## amoulton (Nov 10, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> If piracy did not exist, or even if piracy were not such a widespread occurrence, the game companies would never have had the incentive to lock-down systems like this.


Even that cause and effect chain is questionable- the Wii was exploited with a launch title and it still sold like gangbusters. If the hardware/software offering is compelling and innovative enough it will sell- and people who resort to piracy because they can't afford games would never have provided revenue to gaming companies in the first place. At least Ninty gets the console sale. Microsoft goes hard on DRM because their business model is to [have separate companies who eat any losses] release the same kind of games over and over again, just with better graphics- and in lieu of almost any innovation, they want to protect their current revenue streams. It's not like there's any lack of revenue to go around in the gaming industry, it's just oddly fragmented.


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## Meteor7 (Nov 10, 2015)

amoulton said:


> Even that cause and effect chain is questionable- the Wii was exploited with a launch title and it still sold like gangbusters. If the hardware/software offering is compelling and innovative enough it will sell- and people who resort to piracy because they can't afford games would never have provided revenue to gaming companies in the first place. At least Ninty gets the console sale. Microsoft goes hard on DRM because their business model is to [have separate companies who eat any losses] release the same kind of games over and over again, just with better graphics- and in lieu of almost any innovation, they want to protect their current revenue streams. It's not like there's any lack of revenue to go around in the gaming industry, it's just oddly fragmented.



Yes, I definitely agree that console hacks have more of a positive influence on console sales than negative, but I don't think that game companies understand that. If I'm remembering correctly, Sony strongly blamed piracy for the PSP's perceived "struggles", air quotes there because I'm sure the hardware exploitation actually increased sales. It also seems like they think that developer support would fall through because of the ease of piracy on their system, which may or may not be a significant factor. Besides keeping the 3rd party devs comfortable, investors might react negatively to a console which is easily hacked, leaving the company in question in a possibly awkward position.

In the past, companies have released statements blaming and condemning piracy for many things; whether or not they actually believe that or they're just using it as a scapegoat, I'm not sure. While I think the modding scene only does positive things for the games industry, I don't think the industry realizes it.

But why else would Microsoft try and include DRM in their console? What exactly could DRM change but the ease of piracy? (suspected user information-gathering aside, that is.)


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## grossaffe (Nov 10, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> Yes, I definitely agree that console hacks have more of a positive influence on console sales than negative, but I don't think that game companies understand that. If I'm remembering correctly, Sony strongly blamed piracy for the PSP's perceived "struggles", air quotes there because I'm sure the hardware exploitation actually increased sales. It also seems like they think that developer support would fall through because of the ease of piracy on their system, which may or may not be a significant factor. Besides keeping the 3rd party devs comfortable, investors might react negatively to a console which is easily hacked, leaving the company in question in a possibly awkward position.
> 
> In the past, companies have released statements blaming and condemning piracy for many things; whether or not they actually believe that or they're just using it as a scapegoat, I'm not sure. While I think the modding scene only does positive things for the games industry, I don't think the industry realizes it.
> 
> But why else would Microsoft try and include DRM in their console? What exactly could DRM change but the ease of piracy? (suspected user information-gathering aside, that is.)



What you don't understand is that game companies don't make their money on hardware sales; they make their money on software sales.


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## Meteor7 (Nov 10, 2015)

grossaffe said:


> What you don't understand is that game companies don't make their money on hardware sales; they make their money on software sales.



Wouldn't that be a good reason to include anti-piracy measures in their products, hardware and software alike?


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## grossaffe (Nov 10, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> Wouldn't that be a good reason to include anti-piracy measures in their products, hardware and software alike?


Your point must have sailed over my head.  As I did not follow the whole thread, that one post, apparently taken out of context, made it seem like you were promoting piracy as a positive for console manufacturers.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 10, 2015)

XavyrrVaati said:


> This is a site aimed at both piracy and homebrew. Some people like on and absolutely condemn the other.



I do not think I have seen people condone piracy but condemn homebrew. Some might not care for homebrew and/or write it off (their loss as there was some great stuff on the GBA and DS) but condemning it is a bit further than they tend to go. There are some that condemn homebrew as well as piracy and all the blurred lines in the middle of that but they are very much invited to do one.

As for the question of the title then as others said there are a great many discussions about many things, several of which are actually some of the better places for it on the English speaking internet. To that end they might have reconcile certain beliefs they might hold and as the main way to do anything on this site is to post a thread/make a post then that is why happens.

Also on second hand games they are fine and if you think they are wrong then you are wrong. I really hate that people managed to get others to dislike the concept -- it is a fairly recent occurrence and I laughed at the notion at first, I can not believe it stuck.


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## Meteor7 (Nov 10, 2015)

grossaffe said:


> Your point must have sailed over my head.  As I did not follow the whole thread, that one post, apparently taken out of context, made it seem like you were promoting piracy as a positive for console manufacturers.



Not piracy, no, but I do think that mods, homebrew, and the like promote console sales, a good example being the PSP, which people are still playing and buying today.


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## Hungry Friend (Nov 10, 2015)

Margen67 said:


> I don't think the problem is the fact they're against piracy. It's the fact they get offended I pirate games from their ~precious company~
> And yeah I agree with the OP in the "They won't see the ~error of their ways~" statement.
> "Oh no. I took 20$ from Nintendo. How could they possibly survive this? I'm a horrible person. I'm gonna start buying games now." -said no pirate ever
> Fanboys also think people pirate games only to be cheap. (Which isn't true.)
> ...



Pretty similar to my position as well. It's one thing to criticize piracy in a civil manner but it's another to constantly badger & berate people and act like some holier than thou douche about it. I fully acknowledge that it's piracy when I download ROMs but I think people should stay out of others' business and yeah, fanboys are annoying as shit when it comes to everything because if you criticize their favorite company they go off like children having temper tantrums.

It doesn't REALLY bother me if people give me shit for piracy but my initial thought is basically fuck off and mind your own damn business, and if you don't like the way I do things, too bad. Judge not lest you be judged, and emulation is one of the greatest things to ever happen to gaming. It expands access to once rare games and eliminates the need to buy overpriced used games unless you're a purist who insists on owning the real deal.(which is understandable)

I'm not gonna give people shit for pirating new games either. It's their business plus I used to burn shit tons of Dreamcast games in 2000-2001. Good times.


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## Smuff (Nov 10, 2015)

They come for attention.
Also I'll bet half of them are hypocritically downloading music and streaming movies anyway.
Fuck 'em.


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## Issac (Nov 10, 2015)

Well, it's simple really. This isn't a forum mostly used for piracy. 
Now, I'm a pirate and I do use this forum... but rarily anything I do around here revolvs around piracy. I'm a regular in the "Japanese FAQ" super thread, I discuss games (the content), video game business / industry, programming... Talking about which games to buy, reading reviews, sharing experiences... 

Sure, a lot of people come here for help and support with their piracy devices or help with modding, but it's far from the purpose of this forum now (in the beginning it was the sole purpose).


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## Queno138 (Nov 10, 2015)

Referencing to this: https://gbatemp.net/threads/piracy-common-myths.344858/



> *I bought the disc/cart/game, so I can do whatever I want with the software on it!*
> Sadly, false as well. In the majority of cases, what you have bought is a physical object containing the information and a license to use that single copy of the information, which is different from owning the object outright.



By such standards, Homebrew, which is running code not endorsed by the company that created the device, or to be retold as invalidating the terms of the license (above underlined),
hence it is technically illegal.

It may not be piracy (copyright infringement), but it does infringe on intellectual property, hence illegal.


*So Homebrew and Piracy are both illegal.*

In harsher terms (while trying to be not rude), people should get off their high horse and see the reality of the situation:
They are just justifying their actions, in the same manner pirates does.


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## Arras (Nov 10, 2015)

Personally, I don't even mind pirates. The only thing I get really annoyed at is pirates who go full "Why would you ever pay for shit when you can get it for free? Paying is for losers hahaha". Like, if you're going to pirate, fine, go ahead, but at least recognize it's wrong to do so.


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## Issac (Nov 10, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> *So Homebrew and Piracy are both illegal.*


Sure, both's illegal. I find homebrew more justifiable than piracy though, with one simple argument: Homebrew doesn't hurt ANYONE, Piracy does. "If I didn't pirate it, I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so they didn't lose money on me" is a bullshit argument.
In my eyes, homebrewers can sit on their higher horses if they want. Pirates are assholes. I'm a Pirate. (But for the record, I buy a lot of stuff too, as much as I can afford. I want to support developers, musicians, etc).


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## Queno138 (Nov 10, 2015)

Issac said:


> Sure, both's illegal. I find homebrew more justifiable than piracy though, with one simple argument: Homebrew doesn't hurt ANYONE, Piracy does. "If I didn't pirate it, I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so they didn't lose money on me" is a bullshit argument.
> In my eyes, homebrewers can sit on their higher horses if they want. Pirates are assholes. I'm a Pirate. (But for the record, I buy a lot of stuff too, as much as I can afford. I want to support developers, musicians, etc).



If you referred back to the link, you just pointed out myth no.1:



> *Piracy is theft.*
> This is by far the most common myth. Piracy is not theft because it does not cause any direct damage or loss to the other party (in fact, whether there's another party at all is sometimes up for debate). Theft, on the other hand, is a criminal act because in committing an act of theft, you deprive somebody of something. If I go and take an old lady's purse, _then due to my actions the old lady has been caused a loss_, her purse. However, when pirating, _nobody loses anything_. The pirater gains _a copy of_ some digital item, while the person/entity who originally created that item _is completely unaffected by the act_.
> 
> The legal term for theft is "larceny" and is under criminal law, while piracy is "Copyright Infringement", which is under civil law (except exceedingly-rare cases that edge into a felony). If downloading a song from the internet causes somebody's bank account to magically have money subtracted out of it or causes physical copies of the item in question to poof into thin air, I would _love_ to know how that works.



That being said, 

if one were to considered Piracy "emotionally hurting developers, as we didn't want our game to be stolen", 
then homebrew is equivalent in the sense that it "emotionally hurts developers, as we didn't want our device to be misused with such functions. We wanted to stay region locked.
We wanted you to buy our VC games, rather than run emulators etc. etc."

I'm an asshole too ><,
but there are teams/people I genuinely support.


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## DinohScene (Nov 10, 2015)

Temp used to be a place where ROMs where hosted.
Over the years, the ROMS where dispatched and the community stayed.

Temp is a place for homebrewers/hackers/pirates/gamers to gather.
Who cares if you pirate or not.

Only idiots and fools start flame wars.


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## Issac (Nov 10, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> If you referred back to the link, you just pointed out myth no.1:


Nope, I never said "Piracy is Theft". I hate it when people compare pirating with stealing. 
Piracy IS a lost sale though, surely not all the time, but very often. It hurts someone, sometime. It hurts statistics, it hurts developers financially, and there's no reason to deny that. 
Compare that to homebrew. Who does that hurt?


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## Maikel Steneker (Nov 10, 2015)

Issac said:


> Nope, I never said "Piracy is Theft". I hate it when people compare pirating with stealing.
> Piracy IS a lost sale though, surely not all the time, but very often. It hurts someone, sometime. It hurts statistics, it hurts developers financially, and there's no reason to deny that.
> Compare that to homebrew. Who does that hurt?


Playing devil's advocate: it can hurt console manufacturers, since they sell their console at a loss or with little profit hoping they can sell software on it. If people use it to run their own software, this business model falls apart. Emulators and homebrew ports (think unofficial ports of Doom or Quake) can take away sales from the real ports if they get released. I'm not saying they're strong arguments, but they exist.

At the same time, I would contest whether your point about piracy is necessarily true. I'm not denying the possibility of piracy having a (net) negative effect on developers. People that may have bought their product otherwise may end up not buying it because they can use it for free. At the same time, there may also be a positive effect of spreading word and people buying a game they like and want to support. The hard part is evaluating to what extent both of these factors affect sales and what that means for a developer or publisher.


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## Issac (Nov 10, 2015)

Maikel Steneker said:


> Playing devil's advocate: it can hurt console manufacturers, since they sell their console at a loss or with little profit hoping they can sell software on it. If people use it to run their own software, this business model falls apart. Emulators and homebrew ports (think unofficial ports of Doom or Quake) can take away sales from the real ports if they get released. I'm not saying they're strong arguments, but they exist.
> 
> At the same time, I would contest whether your point about piracy is necessarily true. I'm not denying the possibility of piracy having a (net) negative effect on developers. People that may have bought their product otherwise may end up not buying it because they can use it for free. At the same time, there may also be a positive effect of spreading word and people buying a game they like and want to support. The hard part is evaluating to what extent both of these factors affect sales and what that means for a developer or publisher.


Well, if I buy a console and put it in a drawer, never touching it... it'd be the same. That's more a flaw in the business model rather than something homebrewers can be blamed for. 
Emulators and homebrew ports = piracy. Some homebrew ports require official files from the original game discs to work, that makes it OK in my eyes.

Sure, piracy leads to sales too, I'm sure about that! I'm one of those who've bought stuff after pirating it because I realised I liked it. 
Many does however pirate something while it's new and expensive, and later buys it at 80% sales, claiming they "support the devs". And let's face it, a LOT of people are cheap bastards, and pirate because it's free, a lot more people than those who buys the game, or spreads the word.


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## VinsCool (Nov 10, 2015)

DinohScene said:


> Temp used to be a place where ROMs where hosted.
> Over the years, the ROMS where dispatched and the community stayed.
> 
> Temp is a place for homebrewers/hackers/pirates/gamers to gather.
> ...


Well said Dinoh! This should be the answer to OP.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 10, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> By such standards, Homebrew, which is running code not endorsed by the company that created the device, or to be retold as invalidating the terms of the license (above underlined),
> hence it is technically illegal.



That very much depends where you are in the world and what sort of protections you might have had to bypass to do it. Depending upon what goes you might invalidate an aspect of the warranty (though practically most would consider the whole thing gone for a lot of electronics) but illegal, or indeed in breach of enforceable contract is a step above all that.




DinohScene said:


> Temp used to be a place where ROMs where hosted.
> Over the years, the ROMS where dispatched and the community stayed.



Give or take the old efnet IRC stuff which was a separate thing from the forums the ROMs went very early on (early 2003 early) and that was less than 2 years since GBAtemp started and under a year since the forums proper became a thing.


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## DinohScene (Nov 11, 2015)

FAST6191 said:


> Give or take the old efnet IRC stuff which was a separate thing from the forums the ROMs went very early on (early 2003 early) and that was less than 2 years since GBAtemp started and under a year since the forums proper became a thing.



Pretty much the founding members plus anyone who registered before Jan. '03 know about the ROMs then.
I, discovering Temp in.. I think '07 or something haven't signed up until '11.
Somehow I always refrain from registering to sites.


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## Queno138 (Nov 11, 2015)

Issac said:


> Nope, I never said "Piracy is Theft". I hate it when people compare pirating with stealing.
> Piracy IS a lost sale though, surely not all the time, but very often. It hurts someone, sometime. It hurts statistics, it hurts developers financially, and there's no reason to deny that.
> Compare that to homebrew. Who does that hurt?



I was referring to the statement that piracy hurts someone.

The "piracy is theft" is the header of the myth ><

In any case, if piracy hurts the developers, so does home brew.

It works hand in hand.


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## Issac (Nov 11, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> In any case, if piracy hurts the developers, so does home brew.
> It works hand in hand.


Let's agree to disagree then.


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## Meteor7 (Nov 11, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> If piracy hurts the developers, so does home brew.
> 
> It works hand in hand.



I'm having trouble seeing that. What damage does homebrew do?


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## Queno138 (Nov 11, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> I'm having trouble seeing that. What damage does homebrew do?



Emotional damage.

Like they don't want their system to be abused _in a way they didn't endorsed.

Just like how piracy hurts them emotionally because they few there is lesser sales.
_
(I technically mentioned it a few posts back)

But in all seriousness.

It's both illegal. 
It's just how you want to believe it is not.

Like how jaywalking is illegal, or downloading music is illegal, or unpaid video streaming, or outrage of modesty.

Unlicensed distribution and unlicensed modifications are simply different types of varying illegalities.


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## Meteor7 (Nov 11, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> Emotional damage.
> 
> Like they don't want their system to be abused _in a way they didn't endorsed.
> 
> ...



I know it's illegal, but that's not what I was arguing. For me at least, legal =/= moral, and I set my own limitations based on my personal values, which is something that I believe most people do as well. The "harm" that we were debating was in respect to how piracy affects the future of the games industry and not the potential hurt feelings of game companies/developers, though if that really were the case, I think it would be worth discussing as well. In any case, I don't think that it would hurt anyone's feelings to see their equipment utilized like this. Personally, I'd be thrilled to see a piece of hardware that I designed being expounded upon and taken in a new direction by an enthusiastic and creative community. I really can't put myself into any mindset that would see hacking of a console as abuse to the console, creator, or anyone, really. Are there any reasons you feel that way? Put another way, what evidence or logic have you come across that lead you to believe this?


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## Armadillo (Nov 11, 2015)

A lot of homebrew tends to be emulators. And in the case of Nintendo systems, those emulators play games that are on the virtual console. So there's revenue lost via homebrew. Of course, that little issue is normally swept under the soapbox the anti-piracy people are preaching from.


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## Queno138 (Nov 11, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> I know it's illegal, but that's not what I was arguing. For me at least, legal =/= moral, and I set my own limitations based on my personal values, which is something that I believe most people do as well. The "harm" that we were debating was in respect to how piracy affects the future of the games industry and not the potential hurt feelings of game companies/developers, though if that really were the case, I think it would be worth discussing as well. In any case, I don't think that it would hurt anyone's feelings to see their equipment utilized like this. Personally, I'd be thrilled to see a piece of hardware that I designed being expounded upon and taken in a new direction by an enthusiastic and creative community. I really can't put myself into any mindset that would see hacking of a console as abuse to the console, creator, or anyone, really. Are there any reasons you feel that way? Put another way, what evidence or logic have you come across that lead you to believe this?



Whether or not piracy harms the company is as theoretical as whether homebrew harms the console development team, cause both claims are equally unsubstantiated.

Except for the fact that I believe in the terms of use, they stated they don't want both.

(It's a belief; I didn't read the full terms of use)


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## Meteor7 (Nov 11, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> Whether or not piracy harms the company is as theoretical as whether homebrew harms the console development team, cause both claims are equally unsubstantiated.
> 
> Except for the fact that I believe in the terms of use, they stated they don't want both.
> 
> (It's a belief; I didn't read the full terms of use)



But we know that piracy will financially hurt a company. There are instances of piracy, the fraction of which is speculative, which subtract from the sale of the software pirated, impacting a company's bottom line. We assume that this financial impact will negatively affect the future of the company, future game releases, user-friendliness of consoles, etc, but these assumptions seem to follow logic. It would make at least some sense to say that the less money a company has, the fewer resources its able to make use of, impacting, if only slightly, development of future games. It also follows that console designers will include more anti-piracy measures, making things like installing homebrew and hacking games, more difficult, in direct response to the pirating of software. It's subjective whether or not this things are "bad", but I think it's pretty safe to say that piracy does indeed have an impact on game companies, one that most who enjoy partaking in video games would likely find undesirable. I can't draw the same connections to homebrew, in fact, I think that things like mods, homebrew, and hacks actually add incentive to buy the systems and software rather than detract, 2 examples of which would be Skyrim and the PSP.


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## pwsincd (Nov 11, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> People who buy games used are far worse than pirates imo. But that's a whole other topic I wont get into.



So my kids are worse than pirates cause they save their tiny bits of cash here and there to buy pre owned games , when your saying they should be illegally downloading games and breaking laws . Is this a morally correct thing for me to teach them ? .


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## gamesquest1 (Nov 11, 2015)

i think the problem is that homebrew and rom loaders are often intertwined, think of it more like religion, unfortunately sometimes people fall under the belief of "oh he is a muslim so he must also be a terrorist"....leading to people who are muslims but not terrorists feeling like they have to make a point that they are NOT terrorists rather than leave people to assume otherwise

the point is that most of the anti-piracy people on the site are here for homebrew reasons only as lets be honest a homebrew only forum probably wouldn't last all that long or get much attention

i can see that it would get annoying having someone trying to take the moral high ground and bee all "ohhh im sooo much better than you". there are some people that take it to that level, and yeah it does end up making them just look like preachers, but you have preachers everywhere


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## Meteor7 (Nov 11, 2015)

gamesquest1 said:


> i think the problem is that homebrew and rom loaders are often intertwined, think of it more like religion, unfortunately sometimes people fall under the belief of "oh he is a muslim so he must also be a terrorist"....leading to people who are muslims but not terrorists feeling like they have to make a point that they are NOT terrorists rather than leave people to assume otherwise.



Oh, that's interesting. So, you're saying that the mere mental association between homebrew->rom loading->piracy is enough for the existance of homebrew to create a flux in the industry? I can't say that I disagree. I can definitely believe that game companies have become so sensitive to the possibility of piracy that just the presence of homebrew can be taken to be a financial threat, causing them to take preemptive anti-hacker measures, but because homebrew doesn't necessarily involve piracy, I think there is a way for companies to coexist alongside, and even feed off of, the homebrew scene. This kind of cooperation would take a lot of trust and, right now, that company-consumer trust is practically non-existant. Having seen the recent trend of hackers/modders/homebrew makers taking a firm stance against piracy (all of the Absolute Zero game translations, for instance), I don't think that the development of that trust is impossible. If the two were to coincide, I think both parties would benefit greatly, so long as there's no abuse of power by the consumer. Some could easily argue that the consumer will take every opportunity to abuse their ability, and while I understand that sentiment, I'm not sure that it needs to be a certainty forever.


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## Queno138 (Nov 11, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> But we know that piracy will financially hurt a company. There are instances of piracy, the fraction of which is speculative, which subtract from the sale of the software pirated, impacting a company's bottom line. We assume that this financial impact will negatively affect the future of the company, future game releases, user-friendliness of consoles, etc, but these assumptions seem to follow logic. It would make at least some sense to say that the less money a company has, the fewer resources its able to make use of, impacting, if only slightly, development of future games. It also follows that console designers will include more anti-piracy measures, making things like installing homebrew and hacking games, more difficult, in direct response to the pirating of software. It's subjective whether or not this things are "bad", but I think it's pretty safe to say that piracy does indeed have an impact on game companies, one that most who enjoy partaking in video games would likely find undesirable. I can't draw the same connections to homebrew, in fact, I think that things like mods, homebrew, and hacks actually add incentive to buy the systems and software rather than detract, 2 examples of which would be Skyrim and the PSP.



Everything you just said is pure speculation and unsubstantiated.

There is arguably no concrete evidence that proves that piracy and homebrew harms companies, hence why they are still topics of discussion, which is pretty impartial.

However, you're being partial, by trying to justify that one hurts and the other doesn't, when they're equally illegal.
You say that homebrew can incentivise getting a console, but I can say the same about the ability to import roms.

Developers may not like mods or hacks, simply because it wasn't their intention.
It may interfere with the secret features they planned to release further on.
Or they don't like their work being tampered with.

My bottom line is:
1. Homebrew and piracy are both illegal,
As they are unlicensed tempering of others intellectual property
2. I agree that piracy is a greater evil, but given that digital piracy does not do any actual harm, there is no need for all the hate; since it's the same family tree, they can coexist [well, at least until it's proven]
3. (Slightly going off point) I'm okay with developers not wanting to develop piracy as compared to homebrew; it's their code, their choice. No complains there
4. I'm okay to agree to disagree.
I'm not an extremist where I need to force others to accept my view. As long as they see it, they can decide to do whatever they want with it.

Edit:
All homebrew on 3ds is illegal homebrew, until Nintendo accepts it


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## Meteor7 (Nov 11, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> Everything you just said is pure speculation and unsubstantiated.
> 
> There is arguably no concrete evidence that proves that piracy and homebrew harms companies, hence why they are still topics of discussion, which is pretty impartial.
> 
> ...



But how does digital piracy not do any harm? Game companies have vocalized this feeling for years, claiming that pirated software = lost sales, and it seems to make sense. Is it that you think that all people who pirate games would never have bought them in the first place, thus never equating to a lost sale? I'd really prefer not to guess at your reasoning, if it's all the same.

Also, yes, I definitely acknowledge that they are both illegal, but I think a difference might exist in our philosophies where illegal and wrong are synonymous in your mind. Not that I'm criticizing you, mind you, I'm just trying to confirm what I think I understand about your way of thinking.


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## gamesquest1 (Nov 11, 2015)

ofc game companies would like to believe 1,000,000 downloaded pirate copies would have been 1,000,000 lost sales, the glaring truth is that pirates will generally download a hell of a lot more games than they would have ever been able to afford legitimately, not only that lets just play with figures, 

lets take a rather excessive amount of those downloads and assume that if piracy would not have been an option they would have bought them so lets say 500,000 downloaded copies would have been legitimate sames otherwise (although i would imagine it would even be a fraction of that), how many of those sales do you think would have been brand new sales rather than second hand copies, if someone feels they cant afford to buy games legit, i doubt they would turn down a saving on second hand vs brand new, and we all know second hand sales don't contribute anything to the original dev's

so basically crying about piracy is saying "please save gamestop" who already makes a huge profit on second hand sales and don't help the original dev's.....infact second hand sales could arguably cause more damage than piracy easily , kinda strange we dont get "i buy my games brand new" knights on a crusade


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## Meteor7 (Nov 11, 2015)

gamesquest1 said:


> ofc game companies would like to believe 1,000,000 downloaded pirate copies would have been 1,000,000 lost sales, the glaring truth is that pirates will generally download a hell of a lot more games than they would have ever been able to afford legitimately, not only that lets just play with figures,
> 
> lets take a rather excessive amount of those downloads and assume that if piracy would not have been an option they would have bought them so lets say 500,000 downloaded copies would have been legitimate sames otherwise (although i would imagine it would even be a fraction of that), how many of those sales do you think would have been brand new sales rather than second hand copies, if someone feels they cant afford to buy games legit, i doubt they would turn down a saving on second hand vs brand new, and we all know second hand sales don't contribute anything to the original dev's
> 
> so basically crying about piracy is saying "please save gamestop" who already makes a huge profit on second hand sales and don't help the original dev's.....infact second hand sales could arguably cause more damage than piracy easily , kinda strange we dont get "i buy my games brand new" knights on a crusade



If that were the case, then the war by the games industry on piracy would be a false crusade and pirates would simply be scapegoats, but scapegoats for what? If there didn't exist a substantial effect on a company's profit by piracy, then why raise the pitchforks at all? Why go through all the continued effort to churn out updates blocking unlicensed software if it wouldn't make a difference in the end? I have to imagine that there's something there to justify the expense of developing and implementing anti-piracy measures, otherwise companies wouldn't take the loss, right? So what else could anti-piracy be for if not to stop piracy?

I can see the argument that game companies don't realize the true extent to which piracy actually affects their sales, but why would it be more apparent to us on the outside than it is to the companies, who are likely in a more informed position to analyse the situation financially?


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## gamesquest1 (Nov 11, 2015)

well obviously they dont just want piracy to happen....if its too easy/too main stream then obviously it would cause a large loss of sales if everyone and their nan can pirate with zero negative consequences, basically some companies need scapegoats to justify poor sales to their share holders when they make a crap game, they also can't been seen to admit that piracy has little effect on their overall sales

basically DRM and antipiracy is just to deter the masses and keep shareholders happy


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## Jayro (Nov 11, 2015)

I use sites like giveawayoftheday dot com to get sweet pro-versions of software for free and legit these days. Sometimes the app is great, other times it's meh. sharewareonsale dot com is another good one.

_(I'm purposely not linking the URLs because I don't want this post flagged as spam)_


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## Meteor7 (Nov 11, 2015)

gamesquest1 said:


> well obviously they dont just want piracy to happen....if its too easy/too main stream then obviously it would cause a large loss of sales if everyone and their nan can pirate with zero negative consequences, basically some companies need scapegoats to justify poor sales to their share holders when they make a crap game, they also can't been seen to admit that piracy has little effect on their overall sales
> 
> basically DRM and antipiracy is just to deter the masses and keep shareholders happy



Hmm. I'm not entirely ready to accept that reason, but it definitely holds together. It's too bad if that is the case as I don't see how we, as consumers, can change the situation.


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## gamesquest1 (Nov 11, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> Hmm. I'm not entirely ready to accept that reason, but it definitely holds together. It's too bad if that is the case as I don't see how we, as consumers, can change the situation.


we can't thats just how it works, they have to make piracy hard, but not to the point where end users suffer for it (unless it one of the greedy companies who would prefer everyone suffers ridiculous levels of DRM if they could get even 1 extra sale), and yeah im sure some developers/publishers have different reasons but sometimes you fail to be objective if its your own work, they would really love to believe that those 1,000,000 pirated copies would have been sales and wouldn't want to admit otherwise, then spend an inordinate amount of time/money on DRM believing they will be able to tap that 1,000,000 extra sales they missed out on and be rolling in da moniez


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## Vipera (Nov 11, 2015)

I believe that piracy that can hurt sales is wrong. Pirating a new game is wrong. That's what I think.
I don't care if you actually do it, I just hate the hypocrisy of saying that not paying for someone's work is not wrong.


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## FAST6191 (Nov 11, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> Everything you just said is pure speculation and unsubstantiated.
> 
> There is arguably no concrete evidence that proves that piracy and homebrew harms companies, hence why they are still topics of discussion, which is pretty impartial.
> 
> ...



Again that very much depends upon where you are in the world.

Some places are more along the lines of "your device, your rules" and/or emulators are just programs. If you use that further to either copy or mess with copyrighted (or possibly patented) works then that is a separate issue but as it is entirely possible to hack a device (or download an emulator), write some code using a programming setup that is entirely available to you to use and have said code be good within other areas of intellectual property then homebrew is not inherently illegal. In some places there may be exceptions to these rules for certain devices; we recently saw the US release a list of further exceptions to the DMCA. In other cases this may be the position but depending upon the protections you have to bypass it can trouble things; the GBA had nothing beyond a simple header it needed there and so arguably fell under the old Sega vs Accolade ruling in the US, newer devices might have actual encryption/cryptography based protections and thus in the US they might well be troubled there, even if they are piss weak protections.

Similarly piracy may just be a subset of the commercial code bothering -- legal provisions are made in various places for actual backups, region protection dodging and in some places you may even be allowed to run modified versions of software you own.

Licenses, if indeed they apply (in many places ones presented after the point of sale are invalid and thus leave you back at the copyright law of the land), may ask for you to only use licensed software but just because a license says something does not make it legally binding -- they may ask for things beyond the scope of the law, indeed many view it as the prerogative of the license writer to try to get away with as much as possible. Likewise I have not seen it tried for consoles but in cars there are frequently rulings along the lines of using other parts does not invalidate warranties for unrelated systems -- I can use a different fuel filter on my car and if it messes up something further down the line then they might say no to a warranty repair, however if my car radio breaks then they still get to fix it regardless of my fuel filter. With a lot of software defined systems that can get harder but the legal precedent is out there.


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## Pleng (Nov 11, 2015)

Meteor7 said:


> Why go through all the continued effort to churn out updates blocking unlicensed software if it wouldn't make a difference in the end? I have to imagine that there's something there to justify the expense of developing and implementing anti-piracy measures, otherwise companies wouldn't take the loss, right? So what else could anti-piracy be for if not to stop piracy?



The most common argument I see against anti-piracy measures, and IP owners continually trying to shut down torrent sites is that "Somebody will just find a way around it" or "as soon as one site is taken down, another ten pop up in its place". I don't believe that any company executive really believes that they can wipe out piracy by implementing additional security, or going after a few sources of pirated material. They just need to make it difficult enough so that most people can't be bothered.

It's plainly obvious that if 3DS games, for example, came on SD cards, and it was possible to simply copy the files from one SD card to another, there would be a much _larger_ amount of people doing it than there are now - where people have to jump through all kinds of hoops, or have to invest in a flashcart, to be able to play ROMS.

A lot of people only know how to download movies from _torrent site x_ because they have been shown that specific site either from a friend who is more knowledgeable in the subject, or who themselves were shown by somebody. If that site is no longer available next time they want to download a film then there's a decent chance, if they have the funds and really want to see that film, that they'll go to a paid service to get it. That's one step to being in the habit of paying for films - hence shutting down site x _has_ generated additional income for the copyright holder.


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## DinohScene (Nov 12, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> All homebrew on 3ds is illegal homebrew, until Nintendo accepts it



Don't you mean "All homebrew on all game systems is illegal homebrew, until said company who made the systems accepts it"?


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## Queno138 (Nov 12, 2015)

DinohScene said:


> Don't you mean "All homebrew on all game systems is illegal homebrew, until said company who made the systems accepts it"?



thanks for fixing it XDD


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## DinohScene (Nov 12, 2015)

Queno138 said:


> thanks for fixing it XDD



I kinda agree with what you're going for.
The systems are produced by said companies and mostly, contain proprietary components, not to mention the OS it runs on is completely closed source and what not.

Hacking the device so that nothing but Linux runs on it isn't a "crime" seeing you paid for said hardware.
Hacking it so you can run your own games inside the proprietary OS is technically "illegal", atleast, it's not allowed.
Running homebrew in a Linux environment however is.
Seeing no proprietary OS files/functions are used then.

If I where to buy a Xbone and want to run it over with me car, I got every right to do so, seeing I purchased it.

It's complicated indeed but, you pretty much get the point ;p


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## Maikel Steneker (Nov 18, 2015)

DinohScene said:


> Hacking the device so that nothing but Linux runs on it isn't a "crime" seeing you paid for said hardware.
> Hacking it so you can run your own games inside the proprietary OS is technically "illegal", atleast, it's not allowed.
> Running homebrew in a Linux environment however is.
> Seeing no proprietary OS files/functions are used then.


I'm really surprised to see people arguing for this. If I understand correctly, you're essentially arguing that if you use a piece of software in an unintended way that the author does not approve of, this is a crime. But this seems much too strict to me. It may sound like a fake example, but Windows is a proprietary OS. That said, if I buy a copy of it, I can use it to run whatever program I want on it. I can see why I'm not allowed to do whatever I want with this software (for example, I'm not allowed to circumvent its copyright protection or share it on the internet), but it seems ridiculous to assert that I can only use it for things Microsoft would approve of. If this would be the rule, I'd have to stop using Steam if Microsoft decides that they want to disallow platforms that compete with their Windows Store.

Note that the example of running an application on Windows is pretty analogous to running a self-developed application on the 3DS OS. The only caveat is that this OS is not intended to run anything other than licensed software, while Windows is a more open platform.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 18, 2015)

Issac said:


> Well, it's simple really. This isn't a forum mostly used for piracy.
> Now, I'm a pirate and I do use this forum... but rarily anything I do around here revolvs around piracy. I'm a regular in the "Japanese FAQ" super thread, I discuss games (the content), video game business / industry, programming... Talking about which games to buy, reading reviews, sharing experiences...
> 
> Sure, a lot of people come here for help and support with their piracy devices or help with modding, but it's far from the purpose of this forum now (in the beginning it was the sole purpose).


I really dont think you understand the word most

most =/= completely


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## DinohScene (Nov 18, 2015)

Maikel Steneker said:


> I'm really surprised to see people arguing for this. If I understand correctly, you're essentially arguing that if you use a piece of software in an unintended way that the author does not approve of, this is a crime. But this seems much too strict to me. It may sound like a fake example, but Windows is a proprietary OS. That said, if I buy a copy of it, I can use it to run whatever program I want on it. I can see why I'm not allowed to do whatever I want with this software (for example, I'm not allowed to circumvent its copyright protection or share it on the internet), but it seems ridiculous to assert that I can only use it for things Microsoft would approve of. If this would be the rule, I'd have to stop using Steam if Microsoft decides that they want to disallow platforms that compete with their Windows Store.
> 
> Note that the example of running an application on Windows is pretty analogous to running a self-developed application on the 3DS OS. The only caveat is that this OS is not intended to run anything other than licensed software, while Windows is a more open platform.



It's purely the software.
Windows is a platform which is closed source yets specifically allows people to install whatever they want and run what ever they want on it.
The 360's dash/ PS3 XMB/ PS4 OS & Xbone OS don't allow it.

Thing is, you can't really compare a computer OS with a console OS.
Seeing a console its main purpose is to play games.
Nowadays more then games... but it's got no other intended use.

Self made homebrew applications, that run on consoles/handhelds are usually made with a pirated SDK.
Atleast, most of the native applications.
Open SDKs do exist but their homebrew is rather... limited.


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## Muffins (Nov 18, 2015)

People want a tall horse -a high one, if you will- to preach from because their soapbox is too damned short to address the masses.
The same tools that get used for piracy also get used for some rather useful things as well.

Want to play that colorization hack of Metroid II?
Or delve into a lovely translation of Shin Megami Tensai?
Or how about that copy of Another Code R that never saw the light of day in the US but is in full English but the US Wii refuses to run because Nintendo implemented a bloody stupid region lock on the console?

Nintendo wants you _dead_.

Well, locked away somewhere anyway.

Maybe they want you dead. I don't know the situation between you and Nintendo, but Reggie seems like a fellow that gets _mean_ when he gets crossed.

And on the forums here the aforementioned soapbox-horsing leads to people declaring how _right_ Nintendo is to go after the ones who sell the tools to allow it to happen. How the poor little multibillion dollar company needs to "protect" itself from the mean nasty people selling "piracy" devices, because if people bought those than Nintendo would surely not sell any games or consoles _ever again._


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## mustafag32g (Nov 18, 2015)

It is in our human nature that we like to find the easiest solution. Come on man?!? Pay 60 dollars for a game or get it free?! The answer is obvious do not deny it :-) lol


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 18, 2015)

mustafag32g said:


> Everyone pirates stop posting crap people! It is in our human nature that we like to find the easiest solution. Come on man?!? Pay 60 dollars for a game or get it free?! The answer is obvious do not deny it :-) lol


You wouldnt download a car would you?


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## Randqalan (Nov 18, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> You wouldnt download a car would you?


If it could be digitized someone would


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 18, 2015)

Randqalan said:


> If it could be digitized someone would


ok but it would be like crazy big in file size. If you wanted something say like a Mercedes or Lamborghini thats gotta be worth like 10TB of data.


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## Muffins (Nov 18, 2015)

RemixDeluxe said:


> ok but it would be like crazy big in file size. If you wanted something say like a Mercedes or Lamborghini thats gotta be worth like 10TB of data.



So you're saying we should focus on teleporting small things then?


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## osaka35 (Nov 18, 2015)

The way I see it, the homebrew sections are there to develop and report exploits and software, chitchat about said things, and help those who have questions. Piracy, non-piracy, whatever. I find it fun adding functionality and doing neat things, be that piracy or not. Having a wide variety of voices from all sides in regards to piracy is secondary to stuff actually being developed, but it does tend to be somewhat balancing and inclusive.


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## Originality (Nov 18, 2015)

I am a pirate. I've pirated far more games than I own. I am also one of those anti-pirates - I believe and tell people it is better to own the game than pirate it, as the money helps support the devs (at least until it goes abandonware) and the industry. That's why I own a lot of games. 205 games on Steam and some 150+ games across all consoles I own (i.e. not Xbox One).
I also like extra functionality, which is why I've hacked every console except PS4. Some are used for piracy (PS3, Wii, DS, PSP). Some are used for homebrew (Wii, PSP). Some are collecting dust because I don't want to throw away memories of my childhood (NES to Gamecube and everything inbetween).

I mostly dwell in the PC section because I like to give advice on PCs, and because most games provide a better experience on PC. Nice to meet you.


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## Heran Bago (Nov 18, 2015)

I can think of a few of the top of my head, but there are more.

Custom themes.

Bypassing region locking.

ROM hacking. Dumping, disassembling, editing, reassembling, and running games you already own.


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## RemixDeluxe (Nov 18, 2015)

Heran Bago said:


> I can think of a few of the top of my head, but there are more.
> 
> Custom themes.
> 
> ...


That sums up my reasons for homebrew.

Throw in save editing and thats everything.


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## Veho (Nov 19, 2015)

Veho said:


> Something was telling me the thread would end up this way and then it did.



I'm sorry but this is going nowhere.


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