# When is Gurren Lagann supposed to get good?



## machomuu (Apr 30, 2011)

I've watched 7 episodes and so far I only think it's OK.  I mean, I've heard so much about the show, but all I'm impatient to get past all of the cliche (I can't comment on the amout of cliche content), ecchi (I really wish there were less ecchi, I just find it annoying) and the deus ex machina (SOOO MUCH deus ex machina), the only things that are really driving me to watch it are Kyle Herbert as Kamina (the Japanese voice is better, but seeing the Kyle Herbert using his "Great Saiyaman attitude and persona just adds a different type of Kamina to the English version) and Krillin as Simon (I just find it amusing and odd), and JesuOtaku's review stating that it gets better.  So my question is, when is the series supposed to get "good'?


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## s4mid4re (Apr 30, 2011)

It gets pretty good once the second arc starts (around episode 16, iirc). This is when the story gets pretty serious.


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## Warrior522 (Apr 30, 2011)

Never, but that's my opinion.


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## 8BitWalugi (Apr 30, 2011)

Warrior522 said:
			
		

> Never, but that's my opinion.


Monkat would kill you.

On topic, episode 8, IMO. Then it goes down for a bit, then it gets really really good after around 12~14


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## DarkShinigami (Apr 30, 2011)

i say by the time kamina "liberates" a mech.  oh since his is a gurren lagann thread this quote will fit well "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM".  my favorite line it gets okay after kamina dies but then episode 17 on gets better.  at least i think damn i gotta rewatch gurren lagann


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## machomuu (Apr 30, 2011)

Well crap.  So I was watching Netflix and they switched episode 8 with episode 9, and where episode 9 is supposed to be is a copy of episode 9.  *Spoilers* T watched episode 9 without noticing this, I thought it was one of those moments they would show later but for now they skipped into the future, in otherwords, they skipped Kamina's death and now it's spoiled.  Crap.


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## DarkShinigami (Apr 30, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> Well crap.  So I was watching Netflix and they switched episode 8 with episode 9, and where episode 9 is supposed to be is a copy of episode 9.  *Spoilers* T watched episode 9 without noticing this, I thought it was one of those moments they would show later but for now they skipped into the future, in otherwords, they skipped Kamina's death and now it's spoiled.  Crap.


well thats why i use anime stream sites to avoid that problem as most anime geeks such as myself would shoot someone who messes an anime up but swapping 2 episodes. you still have to see kaminas death you may know hes dieing but you gatta see how epicly he dies.


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## jurassicplayer (Apr 30, 2011)

Episode 1 at about 00:01 into the episode.


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## Rydian (Apr 30, 2011)

The series is also awesome because of the many messages it gives.  Using yourself for support instead of relying on others all the time, grieving, trust, ignorance, pressure... halfway through there's a timeskip, and _shit gets serious_ after that.  The first few episodes after the timeskip aren't my favorite, they're kinda' depressing... but then the ending is wicked.

Gurren Lagann is a series that doesn't always take itself seriously (like Boondocks), so if you go into it expecting it to be one single amazing thing you're going to miss a lot of subtext.


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## DarkShinigami (Apr 30, 2011)

Rydian said:
			
		

> The series is also awesome because of the many messages it gives.  Using yourself for support instead of relying on others all the time, grieving, trust, ignorance, pressure... halfway through there's a timeskip, and _shit gets serious_ after that.  The first few episodes after the timeskip aren't my favorite, they're kinda' depressing... but then the ending is wicked.
> 
> Gurren Lagann is a series that doesn't always take itself seriously (like Boondocks), so if you go into it expecting it to be one single amazing thing you're going to miss a lot of subtext.


i know it is one one my favorite animes to this date


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## naglaro00 (Apr 30, 2011)

When they get the Cathedral Terra

Episode 1


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## Schlupi (Apr 30, 2011)

Episode 4 (IB4"OMGSNIFFINGANUS"COMMENT).

Seriously, though, I found it epic all the way until the point I am at (episode 15, I believe?).

Like any of GAINAX's work, you can't expect it to make a ot of sense unless you think into it a bit. It has a lot of messages, references, and crazy awesome clever things you miss if you're only watching it on the basic level (like FLCL. HONESTLY, did FLCL make a lot of sense the first time? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).

Also, the ecchi I have no issues with just ignore it if it bothers you to see a 14 year old's sexy body too much.


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## machomuu (Apr 30, 2011)

Schlupi said:
			
		

> Episode 4 (IB4"OMGSNIFFINGANUS"COMMENT).
> 
> Seriously, though, I found it epic all the way until the point I am at (episode 15, I believe?).
> 
> ...


Well it's not that I don't like ecchi, it's just the way they go about it just annoys me.  Oh, and Yoko, the Orihime/Sakura/Kaoru/Rachel/First Season of One Piece Nami/Ai Mori/Bulma/Winry of the series.  I don't like her.  No, it's not because of her attire (although it screams "Hey!  Look at this anime!  There's a mostly naked girl in it" which I've seen way to many times in anime) but rather because of the fact that although she is brave and has an awesome gun, as far as where I am, it's only effective 1/10 of the time, just like the characters I listed.  Oh, and she complains ALOT, just like the characters I listed.  Oh, and she's the love interest of Kamina (and Simon), except unlike the characters I listed, they fall in love in *8 episodes*, moreover, there is very little time between each episode, so it could be possible that all of these events happened in less than 8 days (though I can't confirm it).  Moreover, they don't really develop they're relationship enough.  I mean the only thing that could maybe be considered romantic are these things:  Kamina calls Yoko hot in his village, Yoko gets jealous when the Black Siblings gawk over him, Kamina lifts up her robe which embarrasses her (don't really know why, because under her robes are her regular attire), he get's gawked over again, and they kiss...so yeah, I think you get my point (Needless to say, I don't feel sorry for her after Kamina dies, I only feel sorry for Kamina, Simon, and Gohan.  Poor Gohan.).  I just see her as the generic weapon toting under-dressed complaining female protagonist.

Anyway, if it gets good in any episode before 9, I don't think I'll ever like the show, but I'll Wailuigi and Shinigami's suggestions and hang in there until episodes 12-14 and 17.


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## Rogue_Ninja (Apr 30, 2011)

Great series. Watched it all on the sci fi channel.


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## Rydian (Apr 30, 2011)

So it takes you more than 8 days to fall for a chick?


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## Schlupi (Apr 30, 2011)

I see your point Machomuu, but like I said, it's GAINAX. A lot of their work feels rushed in the plot. Despite little character development you usually get a good feel of who the characters are anyway and you need to see the hidden messages. 

I think you're right about the "Hot girl look at me" thing, but I like her. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I question her usefulness however, considering her shots are not really doing much it seems (oh! I hit it in the chest and made it wobble a little!) but later on she has her moments.


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## Ringo619 (May 1, 2011)

ive heard good things about it to , but never watched  it , i might watch it after reading all these posts  on how good it is , i might watch it after D.man gray which is kinda boring :/


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## Raika (May 1, 2011)

Right off the bat.
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When Giga Drill Breaker is used for the very first time.


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## Ace (May 1, 2011)

I can see monkat lurking this thread as we speak 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







Ontopic: The ending is the most epic part, probably. But Gurren Lagann is good when it hits you that it has all these messages that people have posted above. Sadly, you mostly feel them AFTER you finish watching it, and reflect a bit.


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## Guild McCommunist (May 1, 2011)

Gurren Lagann gets good when the opening credits start playing.

I need to pick it up again, I didn't get nearly far enough. But it's still utterly amazing.

EDIT: And don't look too deep into it. It's a show about being fucking awesome. It's sad at times and it has its more serious moments, but most of the show doesn't take itself seriously and that is why it's so great. It's just mechs beating the shit out of each other and a great deal of humor. Sure beats a lot of shit anime I see.


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## monkat (May 1, 2011)

Both Ace Faith and Rydian have linked me here today to tell you one thing, "Go fuck yourself."

The show starts off slow, but despite the intense mech-induced action, it is primarily a coming-of-age story. I don't really want to spoil anything, but growing up and taking on responsibility are major themes in the show--also giant fighting robots. It's a question of what is right and what is wrong--when there's no clear answer, it's a battle of will to decide who is right.

And that's just it - the show isn't like Deus Ex or many of your mech animes; it's not a realistic war-time gun-battle. It's will-power coming into the world as existential matter and energy.

To answer your question, Gurren Lagann isn't supposed to do anything. It *is* good since it came on the air. The first episode drags a bit, but it's only because you don't know the characters.

Anyway, sorry this is so short - it's been a long day of studying for classes and working for...y'know...work. Not really in the mood to explain the obvious.

And with that, monkat returns to his not-being-at-GBAtemp-ness.


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## DarkShinigami (May 1, 2011)

oh my god monkat posted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## machomuu (May 2, 2011)

monkat said:
			
		

> Both Ace Faith and Rydian have linked me here today to tell you one thing, "Go fuck yourself."
> 
> The show starts off slow, but despite the intense mech-induced action, it is primarily a coming-of-age story. I don't really want to spoil anything, but growing up and taking on responsibility are major themes in the show--also giant fighting robots. It's a question of what is right and what is wrong--when there's no clear answer, it's a battle of will to decide who is right.
> 
> ...


Wha!?   WHO THE H3LL DO YOU THINK I AM?  Talking to me like don't know anything about anime!

No, but seriously, I think it's the all of the cliche, deus ex machina, ecchi, etc. that is really getting in the way of me really digging into the anime like I should.  Though I will say this, the further I get into the anime the more I see those things go away, and that's a good thing.  I'm starting to see that this anime is not Naruto, and by that I mean an anime that has such bare bones and permanently undeveloped characters, a potentially good story that doesn't turn out so well, a large fanbase for reasons beyond me, deus ex machina...and a plethora of it, etc.  In fact, this is just the opposite of that.  I guess I'll just have to keep watching and see if it starts to pique my interest more.

Oh, and great to see you again, Monkat 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## raulpica (May 2, 2011)

Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann is just the awesomest anime ever. FACT.

Watch it entirely, then come back here


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## Nujui (May 2, 2011)

This thread reminds me of this drawing I saw.


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## Schlupi (May 2, 2011)

I JUST finished watching the last episode, this very past minute.

It was AMAZING. I loved every second of it. It was Fullmetal/Clannad style crazy good. 


It was brilliant, but I wouldn't expect anything less form GAINAX.


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## Varia (May 2, 2011)

I watched Code Geass before I watched this, and said "nothing will ever reach this level of epicness". 
After that I watched TTGL, and was glad to find out that I was completely wrong.
Well, that's all I can say without spoiling anything lol, I'd suggest you watch it 'till the end.


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## machomuu (May 12, 2011)

So I noticed that as the series goes on it gets slightly better, but each episode is INCREDIBLY more stupid and ridiculous and especially way more cliche than the last.  I'm watching the end of episode 25 and I'm really surprised I've lasted this long.


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## Raiser (May 13, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> ...each episode is INCREDIBLY more stupid and ridiculous...


How so? Just askin'.


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## 8BitWalugi (May 13, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> ...each episode is INCREDIBLY more stupid and ridiculous...


This is a bad thing why...?

Try Mazinkaizer SKL next. You'll just looooooove it.


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## Schlupi (May 13, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> each episode is INCREDIBLY more stupid and ridiculous and especially way more cliche than the last



I will GIGA DRILL BREAK YOU BOY if you keep up this crazy talk.


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## machomuu (May 13, 2011)

Let me just get this off my chest.  The thing I really don't like about this show is the *CLICHE F*CKING BATTLE SPIRIT*.  Nothing pisses me off more then when the show comes so close to my liking and then they say "We have to win!" Followed by one of two really annoying phrases, "Who the h3ll do you think I am!?" or "My-" the thing about piercing the heavens.  Then Deus ex machina happens, and then they win.  This was most apparent and most prominent in episode 17-19.  17 +18 I really genuinely liked.  Then Gurren Lagann won that space battle.  With spirit.  That's when I gave up any hope that the show would get better.


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## mrtofu (May 13, 2011)

.


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## Raika (May 13, 2011)

The spirit is what makes the anime even more epic than it already is.


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## machomuu (May 13, 2011)

Raika said:
			
		

> The spirit is what makes the anime even more epic than it already is.


I've heard that.  But every time I heard them say something like "Humans are the best" (the never say that exactly, but...) they beat people just via spirit, anger overcame me, so much so that one time I just turned off the TV.

PS I finally finished the show.  But by what people were saying, I expected the finale to be much more...spectacular.


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## mehrab2603 (May 17, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> Let me just get this off my chest.  The thing I really don't like about this show is the *CLICHE F*CKING BATTLE SPIRIT*.  Nothing pisses me off more then when the show comes so close to my liking and then they say "We have to win!" Followed by one of two really annoying phrases, "Who the h3ll do you think I am!?" or "My-" the thing about piercing the heavens.  Then Deus ex machina happens, and then they win.  This was most apparent and most prominent in episode 17-19.  17 +18 I really genuinely liked.  Then Gurren Lagann won that space battle.  With spirit.  That's when I gave up any hope that the show would get better.


+9000
I really don't dig this type of anime. They all get beat up, then they just scream saying they have to win blah blah blah and lo and behold, they get power beyond imagination. Utterly stupid DBZ crap. But I have to agree I really liked episode 17,18,19.


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## dgwillia (May 17, 2011)

The animation itself was one of the reasons i loved this show so much. Add the insanely hilariously overpowered-ness that starts occurring in the 2nd season (Like enemies literally getting knocked out of the time-space continuum, and Universe sized Drill clashes), and top it off with all of that epic battle spirit (Some people love it, some people hate it), and you get one of the best anime's to ever exist.

Personally, i loved this show after the 2nd episode. Still been meaning to getting around to watching Lagann-Hen, the final battle was pure epic.


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## machomuu (May 20, 2011)

8BitWalugi said:
			
		

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It's not bad in this case as TTGL uses this aspect to it's advantage.  In a sense, it seems to be self-aware.


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## machomuu (May 22, 2011)

Sorry to double post, but this has to be said.  If there is one aspect about TTGL that kept me watching the show, it's the theme song, Sorairo Days.  I've watched alot of anime, but this theme song is DEFINITELY in my top ten, it's one of my favorite theme songs of all time.


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## Wolvenreign (May 27, 2011)

Don't think about it too much, just watch the whole thing, then think about how good it was.


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## Tonitonichopchop (May 27, 2011)

Although I'm sure you've already had enough sufficient replies, I'll add my two cents.

This is the kind of show that if you like frantic, testosterone driven, flashy, giant robots fight with a bit of drama and some of the most over the top humor in anime, then you should like it by the end. Imo, if you weren't really into it from episode 1, then you probably won't like it as much as the general fanbase for this kind of show. Simply put, if you get into it, you'll REALLY get into it, otherwise you'll just think it's average or maybe even bad.


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## Rydian (May 27, 2011)

That's a good way of putting it.  I was hooked after the first two episodes.


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## machomuu (May 29, 2011)

Tonitonichopchop said:
			
		

> Although I'm sure you've already had enough sufficient replies, I'll add my two cents.
> 
> This is the kind of show that if you like frantic, testosterone driven, flashy, giant robots fight with a bit of drama and some of the most over the top humor in anime, then you should like it by the end. Imo, if you weren't really into it from episode 1, then you probably won't like it as much as the general fanbase for this kind of show. Simply put, if you get into it, you'll REALLY get into it, otherwise you'll just think it's average or maybe even bad.


Well I will say this.  Never once when watching did I think "I hate this show" or "I don't like this show", and I wondered why?  I mean, part of the reason I didn't like it that much was because I went into it with expectations, something I make it a point NEVER to do.  However, sometime after I finished the show it dawned on me.  Tone down the cliche alot and the deus ex machina a little, replace the mechs with extremely powerful beings, and add a more serious tone, and the show you get is Dragon Ball Z, my all time favorite anime.  The shows are similar, and I have 0 doubt that the TTGL creator drew influence from it, hence why a small part of me liked the show, and another small portion of me wanted to love it.  I mean sure, everything I don't like about TTGL is something is doesn't share with DBZ (Hence the difference in how much I like the two), but the shows are still similar (even storywise, seriously,the post-Kamina death arcs and the Cell Tournament forward are very similar).


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## Danny600kill (May 29, 2011)

I loved Gurren Lagann 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 But at first I didn't think I'd get into but I carried on with it and I loved it


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## Midna (May 30, 2011)

If you don't like Gurren Lagann, you are unwanted.
Everywhere.

Edit: I have updated my profile to reflect this.


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## machomuu (May 30, 2011)

Midna said:
			
		

> If you don't like Gurren Lagann, you are unwanted.
> Everywhere.
> 
> Edit: I have updated my profile to reflect this.


I do like it, but very, very little.  I don't mind watching it, though it pisses me off a lot.


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## Kusari (Aug 28, 2011)

I understand what are the people saying TTGL is an EPIC MUST WATCH OR DIE ANIMEOMGWTF!?
5 years old to 16 yo. who never experienced 1) love
2)depression
3)good story/good anime

The full cliche battles with a plot recycling and a fan service characters is a mediocre anime at best.
The voice acting, SFX, music, animation are all 10/10
Plot story, twists and character development with character motivation. 4/10
"They enemy! MY DRILL IS TEH STRONGERST! /yoko's ass/ KEEL KEEL! OH NO MY NOT BROTHER DIED! I BE SHINJI NOW AND SCAVENGE TRASH OF MY SWORN ENEMYY! 
THEY NOT ENEMY THEY FRIEND /yoko's tits/ !
THEY R RLy ENMY! KEEL KEEL! MY DRILL IS THE STRONGESRT!!! /yoko's milf tits/"
"OK U WIN I GIVE UNEVERsE WE LOSTED, I HOEP U DEFEAT RELY ENEMY THAT IS EATING PLANETZ LIEK FROM 5th EMELENT!"

-_-

that is about ttgl. as epic as you get.
kids can gtfo


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## Schizoanalysis (Aug 28, 2011)

monkat said:
			
		

> Both Ace Faith and Rydian have linked me here today to tell you one thing, "Go fuck yourself."
> 
> The show starts off slow, but despite the intense mech-induced action, it is primarily a coming-of-age story. I don't really want to spoil anything, but growing up and taking on responsibility are major themes in the show--also giant fighting robots. It's a question of what is right and what is wrong--when there's no clear answer, it's a battle of will to decide who is right.
> 
> ...



Eh?

How did that happen?


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## Rydian (Aug 29, 2011)

Kusari said:
			
		

> I understand what are the people saying TTGL is an EPIC MUST WATCH OR DIE ANIMEOMGWTF!?
> 5 years old to 16 yo. who never experienced 1) love
> 2)depression
> 3)good story/good anime
> ...


"What's that, somebody likes what I don't like?  They must be stupid."

It's all about representation.  Try reading the thread before posting.


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## Zaku350 (Aug 29, 2011)

Huh, I loved TTGL. Easily my favorite anime (Right up there with Gundam in my book). I guess this doesn't mean much though.

I could not stand the English version though, Japanese with subtitles made all the difference.


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## 8BitWalugi (Aug 29, 2011)

Kusari said:
			
		

> I understand what are the people saying TTGL is an EPIC MUST WATCH OR DIE ANIMEOMGWTF!?
> 5 years old to 16 yo. who never experienced 1) love
> 2)depression
> 3)good story/good anime
> ...


Jesus dude necrobump?

And besides, I recommend watching TTGL, in face I got my girlfriend to watch it. And I'm 16. So I guess I just cancelled out all your first few arguments.

Now begone you. Let this thread die into what it needs to.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Zaku350 said:
			
		

> Huh, I loved TTGL. Easily my favorite anime (Right up there with Gundam in my book). I guess this doesn't mean much though.
> 
> I could not stand the English version though, Japanese with subtitles made all the difference.


I watched the English version and liked the voice acting, while Kyle Herbert was different than Kamina's voice actors, the majority of the other VAs were great, I especially thought Simon did a great job VA-wise, despite how annoying he was (barring the Simon after the one year skip, I liked that one).


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## 8BitWalugi (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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The dub is pretty good, but I personally recommend the sub.

I'm not a sub asshole, I recommend many many dubs (Geass, Bebop, Baccano, etc.) but the TTGL dub wasn't the best.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

8BitWalugi said:
			
		

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No, it wasn't, but I was watching on Netflix so I was stuck with it.


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## 8BitWalugi (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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Ah. Fair enough. Well, if you get the chance, I recommend the dub.


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## Schlupi (Aug 29, 2011)

I'm sorry you didn't like it that much. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But you can NOT lie; the music was epic (especially Sora-Iro Days and Happily Ever After).


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Schlupi said:
			
		

> I'm sorry you didn't like it that much.
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I'm not gonna lie, Sora-Iro Days became my obsession, I freakin' love that song.


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## Schlupi (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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I told you. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I have been playing those two songs in Osu! for the past two weeks trying to beat them (on Hard and Insane respectively).

I will beat your score one day, number 4.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Schlupi said:
			
		

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I used to be number 3, and soon I will beat my own high-score


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## Schlupi (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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The day you see me at no. 1 is the day I will dance on the grave of your skills. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I WILL DEFEAT YOU. >=D


ONTOPIC: Nia is so adorable. I honestly like her more than Yoko.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Schlupi said:
			
		

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Nia...I have a love hate relationship with her.  As a character, I really like her, but because of her the "love conquers all" aspect is introduced.  I hate that in anything, I think love is an emotion and that is all, I hate it when the characters win just because of it (I likes how Scott Pilgrim vs. The World handled it, though.

But overall I liked her.


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## Zarcon (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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To be fair, all shounen series are like this.
Some obviously so, some you need to break down/simplify a bit, but they're all the same in the end.

And as far as deus ex machina goes, DBZ was chock full of them.
Super Saiyan? Came out of no where and conveniently allows Goku to match and overpower Frieza.
The Dragonballs themselves are one huge deus ex machina that the characters know about and can abuse at will every year. And easily with the scanner.
The higher levels of Super Saiyan? That's mighty convenient and comes out whenever they're in trouble.
The other Dragon Balls that happen to exist on another planet they can use when Earth's become unusable? Super convenient.
It even uses the whole human (erm, Earthling?) spirit thing every now and then to get back up when they've been beaten down.

And from things like Goku/Piccolo getting their driver's license and one of Boo's attacks changing things into candy for him to eat, DBZ was never all that serious.

I could go on forever complaining about DBZ even though I liked it. (Though I much preferred the shortened Kai rendition)

You kind of have to let go with these kinds of shows though.
You went in expecting something and became overly critical of everything so you weren't able to let go and get sucked in.

When I was rewatching DBZ through Kai I kind of laughed at myself for liking a show with so many cliches and cheap plot devices.
I still like it, but my youthful innocence when I first saw it is no longer there.
I can imagine anyone who has never seen DBZ absolutely trashing on it if they were to watch it for the first time now.

For the record, I did like TTGL. I'm a super robot fan so I enjoyed that aspect of it.
The typical GAINAX DEEP was also interesting. Growing up story, mankind's advance is it's own downfall, yadda yadda.
All the references and throwbacks to older shows was nice too since I caught/recognized most of them.
I loved the soundtrack though and the "epic" moments were great since I let myself get caught up in them.

It's a shame you went into it with the goal of seeing why it was so great. Even if it wasn't intentional you were probably analyzing it more than you should have.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

When DBZ was out those cliches weren't cliches (i.e. The extremely hungry hero, power struggles),  in many cases, DBZ created those cliches.

Also, the Dragon Balls aren't a deus ex machina, they are the basis of the show, it's the limits of their powers that are and their origin (being created by namekians, only being as strong as the one who created them, that type of stuff).  And yes, I agree, the higher levels are deus ex machina, very much so.

I just didn't like the battle spirit.  It's in almost every Shonen ever, but TTGL...I don't really know why I like it here, but I HATE it, it extremely hindered how I-no, I know why.  Spiral power.  I hated how if they were really "spirited" they would get extremely powerful, it didn't seem fair and it was predictable, that's why I hated it.  Seriously, that is 90% of the reason I didn't like it that much.  I was going to go back in and and see if rewatching the show without expectations would change my opinion...but I can't bear going through that again, it hurt watching them use things like "Giga Drill Breaker", psychologically hurt.  One time I turned off the TV because I was so pissed of, I couldn't go through with it.


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## Schlupi (Aug 29, 2011)

I personally loved the idea of Spiral Power and the symbolism for humanity and its struggles.

I saw it as more than just "Deus Ex Machina" because it was actually much, much more than that. I think I would have to agree with Zarcon on a lot of things


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Schlupi said:
			
		

> I personally loved the idea of Spiral Power and the symbolism for humanity and its struggles.
> 
> I saw it as more than just "Deus Ex Machina" because it was actually much, much more than that. I think I would have to agree with Zarcon on a lot of things


That was another thing, I hated.  *HATED* the emphasis on humans being so great.  I hated how the beast men kept saying how much superior they were, praising them for their spirit and the like, I hate that in pretty much any anime, though, but I do not think humans are that special, not in the slightest.  Honestly, that was another 7% of why I didn't like it that much.


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## megawalk (Aug 29, 2011)

i never forgot that bit of spiral power that is left behind in me after watching that....


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## 8BitWalugi (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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I love spiral power! I bought a core drill necklace and occasionally grip it it 'charge my spiral energy'.

I don't believe in spiral energy, but I do it for the lulz.


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## Zarcon (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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An underlying message was that the spiral race (humans) would be their own undoing because of spiral power (human ingenuity, spirit, drive to advance, whatever).
The cycle has repeated for an eternity and the spiral race has always brought about their own downfall.

On the surface, sure, humans are great.
But the show was also saying that, chances are, they'll end up destroying themselves.

There are a lot of darker toned messages in the show beyond the obvious cheery demeanor on the surface.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

I will say my favorite episodes were 8, 17, and 18.  They were the episodes that showed me that my expectation goggles weren't on and my opinion on the show was genuine, otherwise there's no way I would have liked them.  I liked 8 because it displayed one of my favorite aspects of the show, it wasn't afraid to kill characters, I love shows that can do that, and TTGL showed that it had the balls to do it without even glorifying the deaths (an anime that doesn't glorify the deaths of main or main-esque characters has my attention).  Also, it was the first glimpse at something else I really liked about the show.  TTGL is often a very happy anime, even when they're in a tight squeeze they never get depressed- that is, until episode 8 onwards.  It showed me how amazingly well TTGL can represent loss, despair, and anguish, and it does this with several things: Lighting, animation, music, and talented voice acting, all blending together in a dark masterpiece.  

17 and 18, I liked those because this was when TTGL looked like it was turning into an anime with me in mind.  Everything became more civil and laws were created, I love the time-skip, I loved the drama, I loved the dark turn the story took, I loved the despair, I loved Rossiu, I loved how Simon was treated and how his actions warped the city, they were just an amazing 2 episodes...then 19 came along...

I also liked episodes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14, but not 16.  I really didn't like 16.



			
				Zarcon said:
			
		

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Yeah, and I would have been okay with that if



Spoiler



they didn't just basically fly up there and beat the anti-spirals just like that and resolve the issue so easily.


 That's the whole reason I basically just ignore it.


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## Terminator02 (Aug 29, 2011)

honestly? you hated it because the charaters got more powerful when they were spirited? this is basically the same thing as super saiyan

and them calling humans great is now a terrible thing? so you're saying if it was some alien race battling the beast men it would be perfectly fine?


honestly it seems like you're trying to find things to hate instead of just sitting back and enjoying it


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Terminator02 said:
			
		

> honestly? you hated it because the charaters got more powerful when they were spirited? this is basically the same thing as super saiyan
> 
> and them calling humans great is now a terrible thing? so you're saying if it was some alien race battling the beast men it would be perfectly fine?
> 
> ...


Had it not been similar to Dragon Ball Z I wouldn't have liked it, it's because it was that I did.  In fact I even acknowledged the deus ex machina in DBZ (hence why I said "a little").

Also, I already find humans to be annoyingly big-headed and arrogant as it as a species as it is.  It's actually a part of the reason I gave up Christianity.  I couldn't enjoy something that pissed my off so much, to many things irritated me, Spiral power being the biggest.  I'd like to say it's like going super saiyan, but that's only really comprable when they first turn into it, every other time it's no different than a bankai or a gear 2.


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## Zarcon (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> Yeah, and I would have been okay with that if
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So they ignored the anti-spiral's warning and beat them down with sheer force.
Does this sound similar to something that happens in the real world?
Like certain military forces trampling on another country's business?

They can say "Oh we're different" all they want, but in the end they're doing the same thing.
They didn't resolve the issue, they destroyed the one thing trying to keep the problem in check.
They proved the anti-spiral's point.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Zarcon said:
			
		

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Honestly I think the anti-spiral's warning was the beastmen themselves, after their defeat death was simply a choice for the humans, possible self-destruction or inevitable death by anti-spirals.


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## Schlupi (Aug 29, 2011)

Zarcon said:
			
		

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Oh Zarcon, girl, don't keep talking intelligent or I think I will fall in love with ANOTHER Temper. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	









It's funny how much GAINAX thinks all these things through in their plots. Even P&SWG had insane instances of symbolism metaphors.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

But there's something about Spiral Power that really pisses me off that I can't quite put into words.  Maybe it's the frequency of use, how it's in almost every episode.  Maybe it's the acknowledgement by the main characters and the use to their advantage.  Maybe it's how once they use it, the battle's already over so you need not continue watching (barring episode 8 and 17).  I don't know, but I've never hated anything so much in an anime, but I have no idea why this specific instance takes the cake.

It's for that reason that I can't go back and rewatch the series without expectations.  But I'll do it, I'll see if I can figure out why I didn't like the show.


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## Zarcon (Aug 29, 2011)

The Saiyans acknowledge their Super Saiyan abilities and use it nigh every episode afterwards to their advantage. Though sometimes they "play around" or underestimate their opponents before finally using it and often finishing the battle quickly.
Until, for some reason, stronger and stronger opponents appear out of no where (Even though Frieza was supposed to be the strongest in their galaxy. Kind of weird how androids created on earth and a being artificially created with battle data/DNA from Earthlings were multitudes stronger or how an even stronger being was sealed away on Earth) and render Super Saiyan status as the standard power level. It's to the point that they render every other character of importance from the original DB to useless status as they're all humans without this ability. (Except Tenshin when he barely holds back Cell with his own created technique anyway)
And let's not forget the Spirit Bomb is their "win button" and usually results in a win or weakens the enemy enough for them to win.

In Bleach the whole Bankai thing is the standard now too and they use it for nigh every fight.

The only thing TTGL is guilty of is not having several hundred episodes/chapters to spread out spiral power usage and introduce new enemies that for some reason are stronger than they are.

Actually, maybe that's why you didn't like it. Everything was ramped up too quickly to fit in 26 epsiodes.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Zarcon said:
			
		

> The Saiyans acknowledge their Super Saiyan abilities and use it nigh every episode afterwards to their advantage. Though sometimes they "play around" or underestimate their opponents before finally using it and often finishing the battle quickly.
> Until, for some reason, stronger and stronger opponents appear out of no where (Even though Frieza was supposed to be the strongest in their galaxy. Kind of weird how a stronger being was artificially created with battle data/DNA from Earthlings or how an even stronger being was sealed away on Earth) and render Super Saiyan status as the standard power level. It's to the point that they render every other character of importance from the original DB to useless status as they're all humans without this ability. (Except Tenshin when he barely holds back Cell with his own created technique anyway)
> And let's not forget the Spirit Bomb is their "win button" and usually results in a win or weakens the enemy enough for them to win.
> 
> ...


I don't blame the anime of DBZ for that.  The way I see it, if I want something short I'll read the manga.  And I know, I don't like the overuse of Bankai either, part of the reason I don't really like Bleach (I used to, though).  

Also, Super Saiyan is a form, nothing like Spiral Power.  For a comparison, it's similar to the various forms of Gurren Lagann, not a sudden surge of power that helps them win, only when a person first achieves the state is it truly similar.  Another thing I didn't like about DBZ is something you mentioned, something that has picked at me for years, the strong guys from DB are now useless, I never liked that.  The same thing happens in TTGL, but I think there it was necessary.

Actually I love short series, Baccano was nigh on amazing, and so was Cowboy Bebop and a bunch f others.  26 episodes is my ideal length.  TTGL didn't need more episodes, it's length was fine.


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## Zarcon (Aug 29, 2011)

It's quite a large boost in power from normal to Super Saiyan though.
The form is superficial, the end result is that they get a huge surge of power from out of nowhere.

They can charge/unleash their power levels to boost strength or use special moves like the Kamehameha.
But then they can REALLY unleash their power levels by just "transforming" and get a huge surge of power from out of nowhere that they can also further charge/unleash.

Comparing to spiral power...
They can charge/unleash spiral power to boost strength or use special moves like Giga Drill Breaker.
But then they can REALLY unleash spiral power and get a huge surge of power from out of nowhere that they can also further charge/unleash.
They tend to go all spiral eye'd when they do this if you need a "form" change. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



And as you said, the different forms of GL can also be seen as form changes.
When they get weakened enough they revert to previous forms just like how the Saiyans can revert back to non-super forms.

I don't think they're too different from each other.
TTGL just doesn't have a special name for the huge power surge and no real indication besides from crazy spiral eyes.

For how many similarities you can pull from both series I'm curious why you don't like TTGL as much as you could.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Zarcon said:
			
		

> It's quite a large boost in power from normal to Super Saiyan though.
> The form is superficial, the end result is that they get a huge surge of power from out of nowhere.
> 
> They can charge/unleash their power levels to boost strength or use special moves like the Kamehameha.
> ...


Honestly, I am too.  As I said, the shows are very similar and in every right I should love the show, but for some reason I can't.  From the way I talk about the show in my other posts, what do you surmise is the reason?  I hear it's good to have someone else analyze you, as they can create andwers you can never find on your own.

Also, I do like it, just very little.  I only say that because I really don't not like the show, I can never say that I don't like it, then I'd truly be lying.


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## Rydian (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> but I do not think humans are that special, not in the slightest.


In case you haven't noticed we're at the top of the food chain.

And I believe you're just mad that it's popular.
When I was a kid I hated bleach because everybody liked it.
Then I started watching it and I was all "You know this shit aint' half bad".


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Rydian said:
			
		

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But that's the thing, I honestly didn't really care.  When I heard it was popular I said "Okay, I'll give it a shot" and watched it.  I honestly don't care how popular something is, and I hate people who dislike or like something strictly for that reason.  It actually hurts that you'd compare me to them.  I understand why you would, though

And that thing about humans is something I do not take lightly, I am very adamant about that point.  We are simply animals, no more and no less.


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## Rydian (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

> But that's the thing, I honestly didn't really care.  When I heard it was popular I said "Okay, I'll give it a shot" and watched it.  I honestly don't care how popular something is, and I hate people who dislike or like something strictly for that reason.  It actually hurts that you'd compare me to them.The way you've been wording your posts suggests otherwise.  You seem to connect the series to how popular it is with some measure of distaste.
> 
> QUOTE(machomuu @ Aug 29 2011, 01:34 AM) And that thing about humans is something I do not take lightly, I am very adamant about that point.


Humans are at the top of the food chain and have made incredible technological discoveries in only a few hundred years.

Unless you're talking morals, in which case I'll point out when people are acting crazy they're usually compared to animals.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Rydian said:
			
		

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As to the former, that's completely by accident.  I was attracted to this show because of it's popularity, that's how I came to watch it.  I don't mean to sound like I'm trashing it for that reason, sorry.

To the latter, I shouldn't have brought it up, my reasoning for that is based on a lot of thinking I've done about how humans think themselves to be great and think themselves to be better than other animals.  Now, of course, that is an exaggeration and not all humans are like that, many aren't, but I always wonder why most humans don't consider themselves animals, we separate ourselves from them, and the ones we do accept we call our pets.  There's a lot more to it, but that's it at the base.  It's something rather personal I guess, I shouldn't have brought it up.


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## Rydian (Aug 29, 2011)

S'cool, it's a deeper argument than belongs in a thread like this anyways, I'm happy to drop it.


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## Midna (Aug 29, 2011)

Didn't I see this thread several months ago? Why is it back?

By the way. Watching with a dub will make nearly any anime seem like a badly written, low budget kids show. This dub is particularly intolerable. 

It's 2011, so I seriously hope you guys don't do this.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Midna said:
			
		

> Didn't I see this thread several months ago? Why is it back?
> 
> By the way. Watching with a dub will make nearly any anime seem like a badly written, low budget kids show. This dub is particularly intolerable.
> 
> It's 2011, so I seriously hope you guys don't do this.


I liked the dub 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.  But I guess I can try rewatching it subbed, it looked great on Netflix though, and there I can watch it on my Wii and 3DS.

Also, it got necrobumped.


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## 8BitWalugi (Aug 29, 2011)

machomuu said:
			
		

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I can give you a list of awesome anime dubs.
-Code Geass
-Cowboy Bebop
-Hellsing

Just to name a few.


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## Zarcon (Aug 29, 2011)

I was using Super Saiyan not as a form, but just as a visual cue for when they hit a certain amount of power.
Just like how once a person in TTGL builds up enough spiral power they go all crazy spiral eye'd.

The moves in DBZ require them to build up energy to unleash. The amount varies from move to move and charge time is dependant on how used they are to the move or how much power they want in the move. Basic energy beams are basically nothing to most of them, but moves like the Kamehameha Wave and Big Bang Attack require some charging depending on how much force they want. Disregarding form, they can fire off their higher level attacks with much greater ease in Super Saiyan form and higher simply because they have a larger base power level to work with.

The moves in TTGL require them to build up spiral power to use, just like charging up ki for an energy blast. As the series goes on, moves that required a lot of charge time became trivial moves they could do at any time due to a higher base (spiral/ki) power level they could work with.

Spiral Power is a "dormant energy" that all the spiral races have too according to the story so it isn't out of no where either...though the whole "dormant energy" thing is a cheap plot device in general.

Really not sure why you don't like it that much.
I still think it's because everything was ramped up too quickly.

Like, for DB/DBZ you could see the power levels gradual go up.
You saw the characters struggle with things like energy blasts.
Slowly they got stronger, developed new techniques, and were able to use older ones without much trouble or effort.
Until later on in the DBZ era when they started using gravity training and stuff like the time chamber to fast track their progression anyway.

For TTGL progression was sped way up in comparison.
They suddenly got stronger just because they got more spirited/fired up so to you it seems cheap.
The progression was still there, just way faster.
Instead of getting literally stronger via physical training (or nearly dying for Saiyans, also a random concept that conveniently allowed for quick power progression) the TTGL crew got stronger whenever they won a fight since it made them believe they could actually win in the end.
Spiral Power is basically how much hope/faith/belief/resolve you have.

And you can strengthen your resolve a lot faster and in larger amounts than you can your physical body.
So when GL can suddenly pull off a crazy new move or get an insane boost in power it's because their resolve was strengthened from winning a previous fight.
Giga Drill Breaker was born from Kamina's belief that Simon would pull through in the end...and his simple mind.
Really, he just took the drill attack and made it ginormous. Not exactly creative.
Though I guess different coloured energy blasts with different names in DBZ wasn't that creative either, ahaha.

-------------

Random aside, I always did hate the stupid power progression in DBZ.
They went from the hundreds at the start to over a million just for Frieza...and SSJ Goku was waaaaaaaaaaaaay stronger than Frieza (seriously, that fight should've ended nigh instantly if Goku didn't want to take his time and enjoy the fight like he always does. Stupid Saiyans and their playing with their opponents) and that wasn't even halfway through the series yet.

They got exponentially stronger in such a short time compared to DB.

If it was just the Saiyans I might be fine with it, but even the human fighters got ridiculously stronger and they just self trained for the most part.

The only reason it even bothers me is because the standard was set with DB. It took several years for any of them to even hit the hundreds in power level.
Then suddenly the magic of increased gravity training allows Goku to jump into the thousands...tens of thousands even if I remember right.

Anyway, it's late and I'm sure most of this post is me rambling aimlessly so I'll leave it at that.


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

As I said, 26 episodes is my ideal length.  The only reason I watched all of Dragon Ball Z (3 times), is because I loved it.  Sure, it has it's downsides, like the sudden appearance of a stronger enemy out of nowhere (Like the Androids and Cell), in fact, many people think that the show should have stopped after the Frieza saga, that was a great place to end it, but I always thought it should end after the Cell Saga, which was meant to be its original ending.

Moreover, if TTGL were longer I probably wouldn't have finished it.  Spiral Power seriously made the show almost unwatchable for me, and I think the reason is that episodes sort of played like a Saturday Morning Anime: Episode Begins, Problem Presented, Hero(es) Starts Losing, Something Happens in between, Big Power Boost, Hero Wins.  In episodes 1-7, 15, 16, and 19, and 20-26 that's how it basically played out.  This was intentional, however, and it was used to present the message of the episode, and it worked, I guess.  It was because of this formula that I really couldn't get into, and more, the characters.  There were very few characters that I liked save for Kamina, episode 8-16 Simon, Nia, the mechanic lady, Viral (who was probably my favorite character), and Rossiu.  I found all four of the Black Siblings to be annoying and I didn't like Yoko, everyone else didn't really leave an impression on me.

Then there's the chance that it was their enthusiasm.  I found it to be mostly annoying and that may be the dubs fault as the characters got really annoying when they got excited, and Spiral Power was the direct result of it, that's probably why I don't like Spiral Power.

In short, it may have been the dub I didn't like.  The VAs were good, but they made the characters annoying, well, I won't know 'till I watch the Japanese version.


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## Terminator02 (Aug 29, 2011)

leeron isn't a lady


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## machomuu (Aug 29, 2011)

Terminator02 said:
			
		

> leeron isn't a lady


No, not him.  The mechanic, the one who had the gunmen stored away after the timeskip.


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## The Milkman (Aug 30, 2011)

When Komina dies it starts getting really serious (like almost NO jokes or expessions) Then the second season is good also but im all like wtf when they start talking about anti-spirals and it gets REALLY serious before the seris is over (and I mean serious not dark or gross just SERIOUS) so if you dont like any of the corny little things they do (I actually loved those 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) then I would say the show gets good around 11 or so.


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## Midna (Aug 30, 2011)

8BitWalugi said:
			
		

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I don't know about those others, but Code Geass...

Code Geass' dub could have destroyed my brain. I had a dual audio version, and every time it defaulted to English, I would physically recoil. I tried watching one episode of it dubbed. Maybe it was just the worst episode of the entire series, but I don't think so.
When I think about it, _most_ of the VAs were pretty good (Some of them were horrible). It was their lines that were the problem.


Also I can see that machomuu's main problem with this anime is why most people like it:
Ridiculous, intentionally overused Deus Ex Machina.

Edit: The only dub I have ever liked was that of Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. Every actor was perfect for the role, especially the Fuhrer. Watching it subbed after a while even felt wrong to me. I only took issue with one of the actors. Unfortunately, he played the main character. Whenever Edward got mad, his voice got very annoying. Also unfortunate: Getting mad over everything was one of his principle character traits. Still, it wasn't much to put up with. I loved that dub.


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