# The company behind Denuvo launches its "Nintendo Switch Emulator Protection", claims to "solve" Switch piracy



## xbmcuser (Aug 24, 2022)

Hackers love these challenges


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## Purple_Shyguy (Aug 24, 2022)

I bet Team Xecutor could have cracked it.


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## Wolfy (Aug 24, 2022)

I'll give it two weeks before the first game gets cracked and able to be played on emulators.


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## K3N1 (Aug 24, 2022)

I vote China just preloads yuzu to every new emulator handheld they push out going forward


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## Bladexdsl (Aug 24, 2022)

yuzu devs read this and their response is: like hold ma beer


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## gbatempfan1 (Aug 24, 2022)

Alternative release announcement here: https://blog.irdeto.com/video-gaming/emulating-nintendo-switch-games-just-got-harder/

>How does it work? It integrates seamlessly and automatically into your build toolchain and *detects differences in the way the game behaves compared to what it has been designed for*. In this way, our software can tell that your game has been tampered with – and will make it unplayable.

So it just tests for inaccuracies in emulation, I wonder is that is just perhaps timing, service call, or a cpu/gpu/fpu instruction.


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## Flame (Aug 24, 2022)

thats great. Time for @VinsCool to make some cool Chiptune for those cracktros


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## Sono (Aug 24, 2022)

If you're able to think about it objectively, this probably solves less than 0.01% of "piracy".

Most people would've either pirated the game regardless (which should NOT be counted as revenue, as it's not revenue you would've had regardless of AP measures or not), or they already own the game, but it's more convenient to play on PC, most likely due to controller support, and better visual fidelity.

As for the website itself, it's just immoral towards everyone. Not only does it contain blatant lies, but it's downright malicious.
I'd say not only does this NOT "help protect against bad reviews and expand the previous playerbase", but it most likely does the exact opposite. There are a lot of people I know who wait for others to try the games before they decide to buy. If there is negative feedback coming their way, it's guaranteed they'll not buy the game, and either not buy it at all, or just wait until AP patches become available, and just pirate it, as to not support this kind of anti-consumer behavior.
Oh, and the "protect against bad reviews" part is just a straight-up lie, but even then I'm greatly underselling just how bad that part is. There isn't even a review system in the eShop anymore, and AP measures are proven to bring negative reviews just for the mere existance of them, so this lie fails the test instantly.

Also, this becomes just a cat-and-mouse game between this and the emulator devs. There is nothing stopping the emulator devs to just analyze the behavior and work around it? Okay, in reality it's much harder than I make it out to be, but I assume it's certainly not impossible, it's just wasting a lot of human power which could've been spent on bettering the actual emulator itself.


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## Maximumbeans (Aug 24, 2022)

Yeah, yeah. Two/three years ago people were saying that PSX emulation on the 3DS was impossible. So many impossibilities have come and gone. We'll see about this one


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## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

A couple Youtube videos of Steam Deck emulating Switch and suddenly Nintendo thinks Switch piracy is "rampant."  Hilarious.  Also a total waste of money on the tail end of Switch's lifespan, and a performance hit on already-limited hardware.


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## linuxares (Aug 24, 2022)

I don't want Denuvo in my console


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## SkittleDash (Aug 24, 2022)

...But what's the fucking point? Emulation itself is legal. If someone legally owns the game, they have every right to emulate it. Doesn't matter what Nintendo thinks.


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## Chary (Aug 24, 2022)

gbatempfan1 said:


> Alternative release announcement here: https://blog.irdeto.com/video-gaming/emulating-nintendo-switch-games-just-got-harder/
> 
> >How does it work? It integrates seamlessly and automatically into your build toolchain and *detects differences in the way the game behaves compared to what it has been designed for*. In this way, our software can tell that your game has been tampered with – and will make it unplayable.
> 
> So it just tests for inaccuracies in emulation, I wonder is that is just perhaps timing, service call, or a cpu/gpu/fpu instruction.


A funny line in that post: "One Google search will show you hundreds of free emulators you can download and use to access a Nintendo Switch game"

Hundreds! There are hundreds of emulators! Forget Yuzu and Ryujinx, there's hundreds of other emulators that work perfectly!


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## sarkwalvein (Aug 24, 2022)

Ha.


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## linuxares (Aug 24, 2022)

SkittleDash said:


> ...But what's the fucking point? Emulation itself is legal. If someone legally owns the game, they have every right to emulate it. Doesn't matter what Nintendo thinks.


Well they also have the right to try to stop it. However many do you think owns the games if they only got a PC? Channels like Linus Tech Tips doesn't really help when it boasts how everyday man can do it


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## appleburger (Aug 24, 2022)

Lol, they should know better.  I thought Microsoft and Nintendo getting burned from claims like this was common knowledge at this point.


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## TesseractStorm (Aug 24, 2022)

Given how Denuvo frequently causes performance issues on high spec gaming PCs, imagine how badly their poorly written crap will degrade performance on something like a Switch...


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## linuxares (Aug 24, 2022)

TesseractStorm said:


> Given how Denuvo frequently causes performance issues on high spec gaming PCs, imagine how badly their poorly written crap will degrade performance on something like a Switch...


My bet it will look for specific things like cpu speed etc


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## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

linuxares said:


> My bet it will look for specific things like cpu speed etc


Yeah it's also gonna be making an unnecessary number of calls home whenever you're online.  Might even require validation for single-player games.


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## TomSwitch (Aug 24, 2022)

Oh no, if Switch isn't slow enough now they want to adding Denuvo like disease to slow it further.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 24, 2022)

Genuinely curious to see what comes of this...


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## ZeroT21 (Aug 24, 2022)

Guess emulator users are all pirates to them, I wonder how said company think they are relevant when the switch generation ends


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## ZeroFX (Aug 24, 2022)

Ready to be cracked again it seems.


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## m00k00 (Aug 24, 2022)

If you don't want me to spend money on your game ship it with Denuvo. If you want me to stay online because of your shitty Anti-Privacy Solution even in a Single Player Games ... that's another reason I won't spend my money on your shit. Honestly, I've never seen proof how this Anti-Privacy Stuff actually boosted any Number of Sales, ever.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 24, 2022)

m00k00 said:


> If you don't want me to spend money on your game ship it with Denuvo. If you want me to stay online because of your shitty Anti-Privacy Solution even in a Single Player Games ... that's another reason I won't spend my money on your shit. Honestly, I've never seen proof how this Anti-Privacy Stuff actually boosted any Number of Sales, ever.


The idea isn't necessarily to boost sales... But to ensure early sales numbers are good. Which is really stupid.. If people are already emulating the games, they're probably not looking to purchase it in the first place.


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## yoyoyo69 (Aug 24, 2022)

All this does is pass on additional costs to the end user. You're essentially paying more to have a more buggy or less responsive device/application, regardless what Denuva clearly say.


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Aug 24, 2022)

I clicked  SOURCE

but the page won't load anything.


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## m00k00 (Aug 24, 2022)

Kioku_Dreams said:


> The idea isn't necessarily to boost sales... But to ensure early sales numbers are good. Which is really stupid.. If people are already emulating the games, they're probably not looking to purchase it in the first place.


Nowadays Games are of bad Quality at Release most of the Times, anyway. So I guess this Argument doesn't really make Sense in the End, right?


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## tech3475 (Aug 24, 2022)

m00k00 said:


> Nowadays Games are of bad Quality at Release most of the Times, anyway. So I guess this Argument doesn't really make Sense in the End, right?



Plot twist: Publishers only implement this to give them excuses for how bad their games run.


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## m00k00 (Aug 24, 2022)

Sonic Angel Knight said:


> I clicked  SOURCE
> 
> but the page won't load anything.


Same for me. It says: "504 Gateway Time-out" ... who of you peeps is running a DDoS against them right now?


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## Bladexdsl (Aug 24, 2022)

10 FPS games here we go!


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## Localhorst86 (Aug 24, 2022)

m00k00 said:


> Same for me. It says: "504 Gateway Time-out" ... who of you peeps is running a DDoS against them right now?


Website as stable as their anti piracy


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## masagrator (Aug 24, 2022)

Bladexdsl said:


> 10 FPS games here we go!


There are already games doing this without Denuvo


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 24, 2022)

m00k00 said:


> Nowadays Games are of bad Quality at Release most of the Times, anyway. So I guess this Argument doesn't really make Sense in the End, right?


No, it really doesn't make sense. Pirates gonna pirate.... I really would love to see the data that proves the correlation between piracy and week one sales.


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## m00k00 (Aug 24, 2022)

Localhorst86 said:


> Website as stable as their anti piracy


Indeed. Maybe people are so deperate that they keep pressing F5 in their Browser to finally read the great Announcement of the Denuvo Folks. Like usual: Not every Hero is wearing a Cape, I guess


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## Chrisssj2 (Aug 24, 2022)

For this nintendo switch? i mean its already nearing end life span..?


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## mrgone (Aug 24, 2022)

release groups will welcome the challenge though
will give proper creds


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## CPG_ (Aug 24, 2022)

so does this mean we are getting cracktros again?!


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

oh lovely.  these will be patched out quickly.

DRM never fully works.  Whether it be regular checks, or it be a code wheel, they all get cracked at some point.  The only thing that has some solidarity is phoning home regularly, and depending on the software, that's even patched out most of the time.

Nintendo, you're shooting yourself in the foot.  it also doesn't seem like this is going to affect piracy on consoles in the slightest because they run natively, without emulation.  I'm sure a good chunk of piracy is being done on CFW, and this doesn't change that one bit.


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## Cris1997XX (Aug 24, 2022)

We need cracktros again! Where the fuck is The Krypt!?


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## NakedFaerie (Aug 24, 2022)

Morons never learn.
They failed with PC piracy so they are going to fail with Switch piracy.

I dont have a hacked Switch but i might get one now. 
When anti-piracy happens the pirates now have something to do. It wont take them long to hack it and remove it.

So this does NOT stop piracy it makes more of it.

I wont buy games with these protections in them as this protection DOES usually ruin games. 
I prefer the hacked version as it diesnt have these glitches which ruins the game.
A hacked game is usually smoother, faster, less problems and easier to get and play.

WHY would i get a game which has a possibility to have a glitch every 10 mins qs thats when the piracy check works when i can get a hacked version without that check so its smoother and wont glitch at a crucial moment in the game.

So any game with this protection is now a loss of sale and a pirated download instead.

Yea im going to lose a little bit of money in buying another console to play these hacked games but the worst is the stupid game devs who added this stupid protection. Their stupidity means they now lost a lot of sales and will get more pirated versions out there instead.


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## Dr_Faustus (Aug 24, 2022)

Aside from this probably being a non-challenge for those who actually see what's going on with this and its way of detection being pretty easy to bypass with enough time. The big question is why now?

I mean seriously, why now? The Switch is old as hell now, and most if not all the best games for it have already been released without this being a thing. We are basically on the cusp of a new console generation announcement from Nintendo if they plan on actually releasing one in the next year or two. 

This just comes off as being too little too late for the company. Its silly as hell to do anything about it now given how much is already past it's use case meaning anything worth shit.


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## LinkmstrYT (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Nintendo, you're shooting yourself in the foot.


This looks like Nintendo doesn't have any involvement in this. Especially with how things are worded to avoid mentioning Nintendo themselves and that Denuvo is only "supporting" indies and third-party games.

If anything, Nintendo will likely go after them. Likely, but not guaranteed.


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## Ampersound (Aug 24, 2022)

emulators are legal though.
How many CPU cycles is "no impact on the gaming experience" ?


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

LinkmstrYT said:


> This looks like Nintendo doesn't have any involvement in this. Especially with how things are worded to avoid mentioning Nintendo themselves and that Denuvo is only "supporting" indies and third-party games.
> 
> If anything, Nintendo will likely go after them. Likely, but not guaranteed.


That's fair.  let's hope nintendo puts a stop to it.


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## Bladexdsl (Aug 24, 2022)

LinkmstrYT said:


> This looks like Nintendo doesn't have any involvement in this


not yet they'll welcome it with open arms though and end up putting it in everything


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## Anxiety_timmy (Aug 24, 2022)

10 copies of the 1st game to use this for me to laugh please!
Also I guarantee its going to be something that constantly checks for something that is going to make core #2 hate itself.


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

Bladexdsl said:


> not yet they'll welcome it with open arms though and end up putting it in everything


This is what I'm afraid up, with as much of a stink as they made with Gary Bowser and all.


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## Anxiety_timmy (Aug 24, 2022)

Ampersound said:


> emulators are legal though.
> How many CPU cycles is "no impact on the gaming experience" ?


takes 200ms


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## The Catboy (Aug 24, 2022)

I can't wait for Switch ROMs with intros! Going back to the old-school piracy days!


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## sudeki300 (Aug 24, 2022)

*After attempting to crack down on the piracy of PC games*

this was the part that made me chuckle


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## Anxiety_timmy (Aug 24, 2022)

With how poorly denuvo preforms I'm honestly not ready for what its going to be used for. Gotta keep in mind this is a cpu architecture from 2012.


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## AkikoKumagara (Aug 24, 2022)

"As with all other Denuvo solutions, the technology integrates seamlessly into the build toolchain with no impact on the gaming experience"

How do they get away with lies like this?


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 24, 2022)

Anxiety_timmy said:


> With how poorly denuvo preforms I'm honestly not ready for what its going to be used for. Gotta keep in mind this is a cpu architecture from 2012.


gonna run worse than x65943  laptop trying to run crysis


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## pustal (Aug 24, 2022)

So their plan is to have to have your Switch online to play games, a handheld console, always online?



Xzi said:


> A couple Youtube videos of Steam Deck emulating Switch and suddenly Nintendo thinks Switch piracy is "rampant."  Hilarious.  Also a total waste of money on the tail end of Switch's lifespan, and a performance hit on already-limited hardware.



I might be wrong, but I don't think Nintendo is planing to retire the Switch any time soon though.


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## pedro702 (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> A couple Youtube videos of Steam Deck emulating Switch and suddenly Nintendo thinks Switch piracy is "rampant."  Hilarious.  Also a total waste of money on the tail end of Switch's lifespan, and a performance hit on already-limited hardware.





mituzora said:


> oh lovely.  these will be patched out quickly.
> 
> DRM never fully works.  Whether it be regular checks, or it be a code wheel, they all get cracked at some point.  The only thing that has some solidarity is phoning home regularly, and depending on the software, that's even patched out most of the time.
> 
> Nintendo, you're shooting yourself in the foot.  it also doesn't seem like this is going to affect piracy on consoles in the slightest because they run natively, without emulation.  I'm sure a good chunk of piracy is being done on CFW, and this doesn't change that one bit.


why re people saying this is nintendo call or fault? lol they are the company that makes AP stuff and they are now offering this service for switch developers... this has *nothing to do with nintendo*  lol they are expanding their developers only, nintendo didnt order this or will implement it on every game, same like  pc games, *this is a developer option* to pay them and use nothing more, or you blame microsoft for every denuvo pc game? it makes no sense what you guys are saying...


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## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

pustal said:


> I might be wrong, but I don't think Nintendo is planing to retire the Switch any time soon though.


Could've fooled me, the major game releases for it have slowed down considerably.



pedro702 said:


> nintendo didnt order this or will implement it on every game


Ehh we'll see.  I don't think they would've bothered developing this if not at the request of Nintendo.  I'd count on every first-party game from here on out including it.


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> why re people saying this is nintendo call or fault? lol they are the company that makes AP stuff and they are now offering this service for switch developers... this has *nothing to do with nintendo*  lol they are expanding their developers only, nintendo didnt order this or will implement it on every game, same like  pc games, *this is a developer option* to pay them and use nothing more, or you blame microsoft for every denuvo pc game? it makes no sense what you guys are saying...


Instead of being so hasty to call everyone out.  read the rest of the messages. I had already been corrected and corrected my statement on the fact.  


LinkmstrYT said:


> This looks like Nintendo doesn't have any involvement in this. Especially with how things are worded to avoid mentioning Nintendo themselves and that Denuvo is only "supporting" indies and third-party games.
> 
> If anything, Nintendo will likely go after them. Likely, but not guaranteed.





mituzora said:


> That's fair.  let's hope nintendo puts a stop to it.


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## pedro702 (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Could've fooled me, the major game releases for it have slowed down considerably.
> 
> 
> Ehh we'll see.  I don't think they would've bothered developing this if not for Nintendo's request.  I'd count on every first-party game from here on out including it.


lol did you read the post even? they are marketing this more for indie and 3rd partys games than nintendo itself, they want to make multiplatform games protrected, it says it right there on the op...  they did this because the switch is selling like crazy and they want to sell to more developers...


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> lol did you read the post even? they are marketing this more for indie and 3rd partys games than nintendo itself, they want to make multiplatform games protrected, it says it right there on the op...  they did this because the switch is selling like crazy and they want to sell to more developers...


Yes I read the OP, and yes, I'm aware it's geared toward third party developers.  what does that have to do with correcting my point that Nintendo isn't involved?


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## Anxiety_timmy (Aug 24, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> gonna run worse than x65943  laptop trying to run crysis


gonna run like hyrule warriors on the old 3ds


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## pedro702 (Aug 24, 2022)

mituzora said:


> Yes I read the OP, and yes, I'm aware it's geared toward third party developers.  what does that have to do with correcting my point that Nintendo isn't involved?


i was awnsering Xzi reply not yours tough, since he is convinced nintendo asked for this and its gonna use it on every game lol.


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## Xzi (Aug 24, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> lol did you read the post even? they are marketing this more for indie and 3rd partys games than nintendo itself, they want to make multiplatform games protrected, it says it right there on the op...  they did this because the switch is selling like crazy and they want to sell to more developers...


Nevertheless, this type of thing would require hooking into Switch's proprietary hardware/firmware somehow, and so it's something that would require Nintendo's blessing.  It'd also be quite pointless for multiplat games to use this, since people would just pirate the superior (non-Switch) version instead.  I'd bet on more exclusives including it than anything else.


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> i was awnsering Xzi reply not yours tough, since he is convinced nintendo asked for this and its gonna use it on every game lol.


oh, my bad.  For some reason I thought you quoted me.  I read the notification wrong lol


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Nevertheless, this type of thing would require hooking into Switch's proprietary hardware/firmware somehow, and so it's something that would require Nintendo's blessing.  It'd also be quite pointless for multiplat games to use this, since people would just pirate the superior (non-Switch) version instead.  I'd bet on more exclusives including it than anything else.


Eh, I doubt it.  Developers have been putting in piracy checks in their game with or without the blessing of Nintendo since the SNES.  Jet force Gemini for example doesn't play right at all if it detects the wrong lockout chip.  

They'd likely do something along the lines of watching certain calls, or watching CPU cycle behavior or something like that.


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## Plazorn (Aug 24, 2022)

Theoretically this will only apply to games released after a certain date, meaning all the games that are already playable on emulators will stay that way, only newer games may have this feature. However, they may implement it into existing games through updates... If my hypothesis is correct: DON'T UPDATE YOUR GAMES!!!


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## pedro702 (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Nevertheless, this type of thing would require hooking into Switch's proprietary hardware/firmware somehow, and so it's something that would require Nintendo's blessing.  It'd also be quite pointless for multiplat games to use this, since people would just pirate the superior (non-Switch) version instead.  I'd bet on more exclusives including it than anything else.


They dont need nintendo permission only the devs, no more than they need microsoft permission for pc games, they just make afew checks on the game itself and the values they are giving, they dont need to be part of the fw, they  are reading only, then the game just stops itself from playing with a game side code.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 24, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> They dont need nintendo permission only the devs, no more than they need microsoft permission for pc games, they just make afew checks on the game itself and the values they are giving, they dont need to be part of the fw, they  are reading only, then the game just stops itself from playing with a game side code.


Depending on what the anti-piracy checks involve? They very well could require permission from Nintendo even in third party/indie titles. The Switch is a walled environment whereas PC only has different store fronts. So, the anti-piracy checks could be invasive and stupid but as long as it doesn't infect a PC, Microsoft seemingly doesn't care.


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## pedro702 (Aug 24, 2022)

Kioku_Dreams said:


> Depending on what the anti-piracy checks involve? They very well could require permission from Nintendo even in third party/indie titles. The Switch is a walled environment whereas PC only has different store fronts. So, the anti-piracy checks could be invasive and stupid but as long as it doesn't infect a PC, Microsoft seemingly doesn't care.


like i said they dont ask for microsoft permission on every pc game so they know how to do checks without breaking into the protected code of the fw/os, they are not random people, they have been doing this for some time, they are not gonna illegally make the game hack the console to check for stuff or nintendo would sue them and they would pay more than they gained from the devs lol.


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

Kioku_Dreams said:


> Depending on what the anti-piracy checks involve? They very well could require permission from Nintendo even in third party/indie titles. The Switch is a walled environment whereas PC only has different store fronts. So, the anti-piracy checks could be invasive and stupid but as long as it doesn't infect a PC, Microsoft seemingly doesn't care.


yeah, if it's something that doesn't bypass security, Ninty likely won't care.  Like I said, Developers like Rare have been doing anti-piracy checks outside of Nintendo's typical checks for years now.


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## caki883 (Aug 24, 2022)

Chary said:


> View attachment 324118​
> Irdeto is a brand that some may not be familiar with, but many will know the name of their controversial anti-piracy software, Denuvo. After attempting to crack down on the piracy of PC games, Irdeto has set its sights on the Nintendo Switch. Believing piracy to be rampant on the platform, either through modded consoles or emulation, Irdeto has unveiled their aptly named "Nintendo Switch Emulator Protection" technology.
> 
> 
> ...


Nice news. That can easily backfire


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 24, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> like i said they dont ask for microsoft permission on every pc game so they know how to do checks without breaking into the protected code of the fw/os, they are not random people, they have been doing this for some time, they are not gonna illegally make the game hack the console to check for stuff or nintendo would sue them and they would pay more than they gained from the devs lol.


A PC isn't as "exclusive" as proprietary hardware. There are far different rules involved.


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## pedro702 (Aug 24, 2022)

Kioku_Dreams said:


> A PC isn't as "exclusive" as proprietary hardware. There are far different rules involved.


doesnt matter, they arent amateurs, they know their bondarys for sure, if it doesnt break into copyrighted acess code beyond the game   access rights nintendo wont care and its not worth risking do to possible lawsuits.


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## mituzora (Aug 24, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> doesnt matter, they arent amateurs, they know their bondarys for sure, if it doesnt break into copyrighted acess code beyond the game   access rights nintendo wont care and its not worth risking do to possible lawsuits.


I would agree with you on this except that Nintendo delisted an indie game not too long ago for having a fully functional ruby interpreter in the game.  It was sandboxed, and technically didn't circumvent any security, but Ninty didn't like the idea of a programming interpreter in a game.


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## Alexander1970 (Aug 24, 2022)

Chary said:


> View attachment 324118​
> Irdeto is a brand that some may not be familiar with, but many will know the name of their controversial anti-piracy software, Denuvo. After attempting to crack down on the piracy of PC games, Irdeto has set its sights on the Nintendo Switch. Believing piracy to be rampant on the platform, either through modded consoles or emulation, Irdeto has unveiled their aptly named "Nintendo Switch Emulator Protection" technology.


The correct description would be:

Irdeto took over the Denuvo Developer _Denuvo Software Solutions GmbH_ (an Austrian company) in 2018 and is the name giver / licensee and responsible for BOTH brands.


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## peteruk (Aug 24, 2022)

it's like trying to shut the barn door when all the horses already ran free

too little too late


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## subcon959 (Aug 24, 2022)

I think this is more about trying to get their foot in the door for Nintendo's next console.


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## SilverWah (Aug 24, 2022)

DRM never is and always will be the wrong answer.
Like come on, it's getting figured out and the guys who made said DRM will look like asshats after it happened.
Modern games already suck, don't make it worse. At least there's always emulation.


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## VinsCool (Aug 24, 2022)

Right, because those sanity checks to bypass emulators always worked forever, just look at those games that specifically targeted Dolphin Emulator in its later days.
Sure, it did work for some time, but at the end, more accurate emulation rendered those hacks pointless since the emulated console ultimately behaved exactly like the real thing, and thus became undetectable.

I give at most 1 week for 1 game release that uses this fancy new Denuvo for Switch to run without any issue.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 24, 2022)

VinsCool said:


> Right, because those sanity checks to bypass emulators always worked forever, just look at those games that specifically targeted Dolphin Emulator in its later days.
> Sure, it did work for some time, but at the end, more accurate emulation rendered those hacks pointless since the emulated console ultimately behaved exactly like the real thing, and thus became undetectable.
> 
> I give at most 1 week for 1 game release that uses this fancy new Denuvo for Switch to run without any issue.


The only way i think that they would be able to prevent emulation them they would do something like this is to do a stargate way and have to have the games to be cracked by modders down the way


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## ut2k4master (Aug 24, 2022)

SkittleDash said:


> ...But what's the fucking point? Emulation itself is legal. If someone legally owns the game, they have every right to emulate it. Doesn't matter what Nintendo thinks.


its not quite that simple


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## Marc_LFD (Aug 24, 2022)

They [Denuvo] must know they're hated by many for their bs drm and seems they like it.


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## Haymose (Aug 24, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> I bet Team Xecutor could have cracked it.



Imagine paying a license to play a pirated game on an emulator.



Wolfy said:


> I'll give it two weeks before the first game gets cracked and able to be played on emulators.



That would be considered a success since the first two weeks of game sales are the most valuable.


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## Marc_LFD (Aug 24, 2022)

SilverWah said:


> DRM never is and always will be the wrong answer.
> Like come on, it's getting figured out and the guys who made said DRM will look like asshats after it happened.
> Modern games already suck, don't make it worse. At least there's always emulation.


GOG (games) and Bandcamp (music) sell their content digitally and without any DRM so you could share it with anyone you'd want, but the point of being DRM-free is for paid customers to use it wherever they want.

Denuvo is despised and they deserve it. These assholes act like gangs and coyotes trying to control where we play what we buy.


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## Zyvyn (Aug 24, 2022)

Chary said:


> View attachment 324118​
> Irdeto is a brand that some may not be familiar with, but many will know the name of their controversial anti-piracy software, Denuvo. After attempting to crack down on the piracy of PC games, Irdeto has set its sights on the Nintendo Switch. Believing piracy to be rampant on the platform, either through modded consoles or emulation, Irdeto has unveiled their aptly named "Nintendo Switch Emulator Protection" technology.
> 
> 
> ...


And knowing how all DRM goes. It will be bypassed within days.


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## nl255 (Aug 24, 2022)

> Haymose said:
> 
> 
> > That would be considered a success since the first two weeks of game sales are the most valuable.


Except that is often already the case when it comes to emulation, especially any emulator that uses HLE, as it often takes time for the stuff the new game uses to be implemented especially if it takes advantage of new syscalls or other APIs implemented in later firmware versions.  Hell, there are still some Switch games that won't run in either emulator, for example the last time I checked it is not possible to play any official English version of Dragon Quest Builders 1 on a PC in English, you have to use the fan translated PS3 version which due to the nature of fan translations is not going to be anywhere close to the official version.


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## pustal (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Could've fooled me, the major game releases for it have slowed down considerably.


Hasn't game dev been stalled considerably by the pandemic of the last couple of years?

And you have a few major first party and exclusives released this year like Kirby and and Xenoblade 3, and some upcoming, like Splatoon 3, Mario + Rabbids 2 and Pokémon Scarlet/Violet. You have Breath of the Wild 2 for next year as well.


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## Olmectron (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> A couple Youtube videos of Steam Deck emulating Switch and suddenly Nintendo thinks Switch piracy is "rampant."  Hilarious.  Also a total waste of money on the tail end of Switch's lifespan, and a performance hit on already-limited hardware.


This is not a Nintendo statement or development. This is the Denuvo development company trying to get more money from stupid developers that think Denuvo actually does any good.


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## gudenau (Aug 24, 2022)

No impact? Extra garbage running in the background will always degrade the experience.


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## Deckard5621 (Aug 24, 2022)

I really hope this leads to cfw on all switches


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## NerevaRising (Aug 24, 2022)

Switch games already struggle on the hardware as it is and now paying customers will have to deal with online check-ins, longer loading times and reduced performance


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## Deckard5621 (Aug 24, 2022)

NerevaRising said:


> Switch games already struggle on the hardware as it is and now paying customers will have to deal with online check-ins, longer loading times and reduced performance


It’s almost if Nintendo want everyone to pirate lmao


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## AndorfRequissa (Aug 24, 2022)

where is the swtich going to get the extra resources to make all these antipriacy calls without downgrading performance on the switch for those that do pay. it seems like nintendo wants to punish paying customers as much as those that dont pay. 

if the swtich was actually powerful and could play the games without degrading the quality and performance of the game to make these checks it maybe would be a good idea. but its not performance and quality of graphics will take a hit to handle these extra API calls thats take resources to complete


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## ov3rkill (Aug 24, 2022)

I guess Irdeto needs that Nintendo money and whatever bs they're selling on those poor sods.


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## Purple_Shyguy (Aug 24, 2022)

Sono said:


> If you're able to think about it objectively, this probably solves less than 0.01% of "piracy".
> 
> Most people would've either pirated the game regardless (which should NOT be counted as revenue, as it's not revenue you would've had regardless of AP measures or not), or they already own the game, but it's more convenient to play on PC, most likely due to controller support, and better visual fidelity.
> 
> ...


I hate this absolute lie that people "would just pirate the game regardless"

It's simply not true. Before the switch was hacked I had spent $600 on switch games. I bought about 20 games over the first 12 months. The second it got hacked I never paid for another game. 4 years on not a penny spent. The same for my WiiU, my 3DS, my PS4. I own games for all those systems when there's no piracy and the MOMENT they're hacked I never buy another game again.


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## Dartz150 (Aug 24, 2022)

> "... *with no impact on the gaming experience..." *




PC players know this is UTERLY BULLSHIT hahahaha.


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## BlueFox gui (Aug 24, 2022)

ah, see, the performance in this glorified tablet isn't shit enough, let's shitfy it even more


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## linuxares (Aug 24, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Yeah it's also gonna be making an unnecessary number of calls home whenever you're online.  Might even require validation for single-player games.


Probably not. How else would it work offline?


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## Sono (Aug 24, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> I hate this absolute lie that people "would just pirate the game regardless"
> 
> It's simply not true. Before the switch was hacked I had spent $600 on switch games. I bought about 20 games over the first 12 months. The second it got hacked I never paid for another game. 4 years on not a penny spent. The same for my WiiU, my 3DS, my PS4. I own games for all those systems when there's no piracy and the MOMENT they're hacked I never buy another game again.



By that I meant those who would never pay for the game, no matter the circumstances.

I excluded people like you who start pirating as soon as it becomes easy, as they are a minority compared to the rest of the pirates.


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## linuxares (Aug 24, 2022)

Sono said:


> By that I meant those who would never pay for the game, no matter the circumstances.
> 
> I excluded people like you who start pirating as soon as it becomes easy, as they are a minority compared to the rest of the pirates.


And I still buy games I like. I don't understand why people stop supporting game development as soon as they can pirate stuff


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 24, 2022)

linuxares said:


> And I still buy games I like. I don't understand why people stop supporting game development as soon as they can pirate stuff


....because they had no real intent to support devs? I choose to believe that even those who pirate often still buy the games they enjoy.


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## HinaNaru Cutie (Aug 24, 2022)

Good grief, I go here to just see this shart splattered here, cringy as heck man; this ain't gonna do nothing, it's just gonna cause even more dispute because they will screech at basically the community for being villians, because one of the members of the community found out how to easily just slap the thing..I just..this is sad. - What makes it even more grotesque as Sana stated here; these people are smearing lies, that in itself is dangerous, because not only will one ignorant costumer will just hop in and believe it, more of them will, and make this fake belief community of "how to properly do homebrew" to whatever they title it, - and spread just lies even more based off fact checkers sources - it's just gonna be a big hot mess man, and the reason I know of this, it's cause i have seen first head example from the animal crossing new horizon community; these people seriously believe that using a program that was created by the same people they use resources from are villians doing illegal stuff..they're on Twitter posting ignorant tweets to demonize people who use a program that I found out what it can actually do..but no let's make up stuff because you yourself can't be bothered to research it up.
Finally, the thing that really bugs me about this actual act that these ignorant people are spreading in the new horizon community on the mod side...these people will target, get upset over the most dense things ever demonize anybody that knows how to mod as the bad guy, it happened to the poor Chinese user who was using a program I found out that doesn't banned nobodies Island like the Twitter user i used as an example here was spreading it out to be as. No the real reason these ignorant people island's are being taken down its because you are putting them online while being modded, some know this and they still upload it online with nintendo online serves but refuse to admit that it's they're own fault not the mod communities fault for the actions they did. 


Anyway, I hope folks are having a good laugh out of this, and enjoy your day, God bless.


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## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 24, 2022)

VinsCool said:


> Right, because those sanity checks to bypass emulators always worked forever, just look at those games that specifically targeted Dolphin Emulator in its later days.
> Sure, it did work for some time, but at the end, more accurate emulation rendered those hacks pointless since the emulated console ultimately behaved exactly like the real thing, and thus became undetectable.
> 
> I give at most 1 week for 1 game release that uses this fancy new Denuvo for Switch to run without any issue.


I doubt Yuzu devs would allow Something designed to check for emulators to run on their Emulator, they would consider something like that Piracy and might even tweak the emulator to make them run worse on purpose.
They cater to these shitty publishers and Game companies.


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## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 24, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> I hate this absolute lie that people "would just pirate the game regardless"
> 
> It's simply not true. Before the switch was hacked I had spent $600 on switch games. I bought about 20 games over the first 12 months. The second it got hacked I never paid for another game. 4 years on not a penny spent. The same for my WiiU, my 3DS, my PS4. I own games for all those systems when there's no piracy and the MOMENT they're hacked I never buy another game again.


That's not people, that's you. Just because you're a dirty good for nothing pirate doesn't mean everyone else is too.


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## stanleyopar2000 (Aug 24, 2022)

Bladexdsl said:


> yuzu devs read this and their response is: like hold ma beer


That's all funny jokes aside but if Yuzu bypasses this...would this give Irdeto  literally the excuse to shut the emulator down or sue them? (with Nintendo's blessing of course)

This could be a trap to get Yuzu to bypass "copyrighted" technology


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## AkikoKumagara (Aug 24, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> the MOMENT they're hacked I never buy another game again.


That's called an anecdote.

Almost all of my game systems are modded in some way that enables piracy, but I still will buy a game that interests me if I can justify the price.

Damn, it's like not all people are the same or something.


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## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 24, 2022)

stanleyopar2000 said:


> That's all funny jokes aside but if Yuzu bypasses this...would this give Irdeto  literally the excuse to shut the emulator down? (with Nintendo's blessing of course)
> 
> This could be a trap to get Yuzu to bypass "copyrighted" technology


probably not, making an Emulator better and more accurate isn't inherantly illegal. Although I don't really see the Yuzu Devs ever being likely to Bypass this anyway, if anything they would probably make an effort to ensure the games don't run.


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## diggeloid (Aug 24, 2022)

Nobody is making their money back with this lol. No idea what Denuvo is charging, but even if this worked, it's pretty much established fact at this point that a pirated copy does not equal a lost sale.

The solution for developers who are concerned about emulation piracy is to ship multiplatform. Who in their right mind would go through the effort of pirating a switch rom when they can just buy that same game on Steam/Epic/Itch/etc? Or at they very least pirate the PC version. If their PC can run the game in an emulator, it can likely run the game natively.

I know this is Denuvo's entire business, so they're going to try to sell this as hard as they can. I would be curious in seeing what that pitch deck looks like. Do they have any real statistics on Switch emulation piracy? Probably a bunch of vague numbers combined with fearmongering.

I'm not a fan of piracy or anything, but this type of thing is bad for users who are interested in game preservation and legitimate backups, _especially_ with Nintendo's history of permanently shutting down their store and making it impossible to download games (see Wii shop, and likely the Wii U/3DS shop in the next few years)

On the bright side, hackers will probably figure out how to disable this crap eventually.


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## Dimensional (Aug 24, 2022)

Claiming to not impact performance. It's clear they don't understand themselves or how much players hate their crap. Maybe they believe the sun orbits the earth, or the pyramids were made by aliens? I hope Nintendo calls them out with a statement that no software with Denuvo will be allowed to run on their hardware. No matter what happens, Denuvo will hurt sales for the developers, and anyone who is dumb enough to think Denuvo is the best solution to stop piracy deserves to lose money from all the negative reviews associated with their Denuvo-throttled software.

In effect, Denuvo isn't Anti-Piracy Software.. It's Pro-Piracy, because nobody in their right mind wants to buy a Denuvo-wared Piece of Crap. Sales will be far below needed levels, and half of what will be sales are from developers looking to crack this failure of security or people who want to dat the software for preservation in No-Intro, but they won't play it, nor would they be able to with it's riddled malware dropping performance to the same crawl as a 600 MHz Windows ME computer.


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## DJPlace (Aug 24, 2022)

i hate the name Denuvo...


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## Purple_Shyguy (Aug 24, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> That's not people, that's you. Just because you're a dirty good for nothing pirate doesn't mean everyone else is too.


Except the other guy literally claims that people that pirate wouldn't buy the game anyway. Well I would have had I not been able to pirate. So the claims not true.


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## supergamer368 (Aug 24, 2022)

the switch already struggles to run many games adding in the switch equivilant of denuvo is not gonna do high-demand games any favors


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## City (Aug 24, 2022)

I'm not sure if the people anthropomorphizing a company that's quoted in the public market and thinking they wouldn't try to fix the drop in value of last year's trend are simply young (and therefore understandbly dumb) or worringly adults that can't really understand what COMPANIES do to make money.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 24, 2022)

City said:


> I'm not sure if the people anthropomorphizing a company that's quoted in the public market and thinking they wouldn't try to fix the drop in value of last year's trend are simply young (and therefore understandbly dumb) or worringly adults that can't really understand what COMPANIES do to make money.


....

Those are definitely words...


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## rafpoop (Aug 25, 2022)

"Recent research conducted by Irdeto in collaboration with Omdia found that 84% of game developers are continuously concerned about tampering and piracy. The study also found that 93% of those using anti-cheat and anti-tamper solutions are satisfied with the protection and value brought by game protection technologies."

This part made me laugh a lot. "We did our own research and we've found that most people like our product!" must be a great way to sell it.


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## MasterJ360 (Aug 25, 2022)

Eh even if Yuzu devs allow a piracy check it will flop. Remember that 1 guy on Steam that made the Special K mod tool for certain PC games and he had anti-piracy bundled in to the point it would remove files from the game to prevent it from launching? This infamous incident happen around 2018
Nier Automata & Tales of Berseria were his examples and Steam temporary banned him for that. Anyway ppl will just find a way to remove the checks as unofficial builds and move on like nothing happen.


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## mspy (Aug 25, 2022)

So this is only supposed to work on PC and not the Switch itself?

Also does Denuvo work on Linux?
Cuse the Switch emulators run pretty well on Linux and I'd argue that running them on a Steam Deck is the way to go so if Denuvo would only work on Windows people just need to use Linux instead...


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## KingVamp (Aug 25, 2022)

I wonder which company will be first to look at the mess that is Denuvo and still decide to put it in their console games.


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## rafpoop (Aug 25, 2022)

mspy said:


> So this is only supposed to work on PC and not the Switch itself?
> 
> Also does Denuvo work on Linux?
> Cuse the Switch emulators run pretty well on Linux and I'd argue that running them on a Steam Deck is the way to go so if Denuvo would only work on Windows people just need to use Linux instead...


That's the impression I'm getting because it specifically says emulators. I don't think it does anything about pirated games on a normal Switch.


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## raxadian (Aug 25, 2022)

Wanna bet this will only really inconvenience people who buys the games?


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## Guacaholey (Aug 25, 2022)

Yes, an anti-piracy program that messes with game performance is the perfect fit for a console that struggles with some first party titles. If Nintendo implements this I won't buy another 3rd party title on the Switch, or any console using such shitty DRM.


Kioku_Dreams said:


> Genuinely curious to see what comes of this...


A class action lawsuit when Denuvo's spaghetti code means the games people paid for can't be played properly.


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## TomSwitch (Aug 25, 2022)

Denuvo-19 lock down coming, you will need to wear mask while playing


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## dpad_5678 (Aug 25, 2022)

This just makes me think of the 3DS anti-piracy measures that Nintendo implemented with Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing back in 2015. Sky3DS immediately released a revised version of their flashcart that bypassed the AP protection.


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## xdarkmario (Aug 25, 2022)

sorry but i HOPE this crashes and BURNS!
id much rather buy my games, dump them and then play the game on my pc while my switch sits in the closet


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## Kitocco (Aug 25, 2022)

Chary said:


> Irdeto also promises that there is no impact on the gaming performance with it enabled, a claim that has led to many controversies in the past with Denuvo.​


Yeah sure grandpa Irdeto, let's get you to bed UuU


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 25, 2022)

Someone should not work in a capitalist hellscape, underpaid as fuck for their labor, to purchase a product and still not own it despite physically holding the product and the console in their hands. This is fucking ridiculous and I cannot wait to see it hacked. Tempted to just sell my switch and buy a Steam deck to emulate all my games on from now on.


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## Joeynator3000 (Aug 25, 2022)

...ugh, I'm guessing this will affect modding as well...? I dunno, I heard that some Steam games couldn't be modded because of this bs.


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## scoobydude51 (Aug 25, 2022)

xbmcuser said:


> Hackers love these challenges


exactly why i'm not worried


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## LainaGabranth (Aug 25, 2022)

Joeynator3000 said:


> ...ugh, I'm guessing this will affect modding as well...? I dunno, I heard that some Steam games couldn't be modded because of this bs.


Correct, there are several denuvo games on steam that are increasingly difficult to properly mod outside of model replacements and such, because the exes are all encrypted. IIRC they're run in a "VM" (do not think about this like a computer VM, it is not, but I do not know how to describe it as anything other than a VM) so you can't even hook shit into them, such as BepInEx for Unity modding as an example, or else the program either crashes or doesn't run.


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## gunfort (Aug 25, 2022)

Does anyone remembers anti-piracy on NDS? and how it end up?


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## Dimensional (Aug 25, 2022)

Denuvo: Screwing over consumers while misleading developers.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 25, 2022)

gunfort said:


> Does anyone remembers anti-piracy on NDS? and how it end up?


yea, TWI menu was my savior


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## DarkCoffe64 (Aug 25, 2022)

Lmao, watch this parasitic implementation not only make the game run even worse on the shitch, perhaps even open up hacking/modding opportunities for the newer shitch's models, hah



linuxares said:


> Probably not. How else would it work offline?


It won't c:

Wouldn't be the first time an "offline" game needs to be online 'cus them corpos are so scared you're pirating the game, tsk.


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## susbaconhairman (Aug 25, 2022)

haha fuckers, they will never get away with this as long as pirates and cunning h4xx0rs exist!


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 25, 2022)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> Lmao, watch this parasitic implementation not only make the game run even worse on the shitch, perhaps even open up hacking/modding opportunities for the newer shitch's models, hah
> 
> 
> It won't c:
> ...



Persona 4 Golden PC be like


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## Nincompoopdo (Aug 25, 2022)

That's just dumb, most 3rd party games can be played on PC. People will be pirating PC games, not play them on a graphically dumb-down Switch version through an emulator.


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## City (Aug 25, 2022)

Maybe I wasn't clear. And a little rude, so I apologize for that.

Companies don't give a shit about *you*, the nerds that have time and willingness to avoid paying for stuff. They don't want piracy to become "too" mainstream. Someone mentioned DS piracy earlier, yeah, that actually was VERY close to become as bad as piracy on mobile phones. For the kids of the thread: it became so bad that some indipendent gaming stores and even the little illegal stands with bootleg games were selling flashcards. A worrysome and increasing number of parents weren't going to Toys 'R Us anymore to buy games, but paying someone a few bucks to put dozens of ROMs in a bootleg R4. So much so that Nintendo had to pretty much ask everywhere to make flashcards close to impossible to buy for the "regular" person and fine those who were selling them. It was never about you.

That, and the fact that, as I have mentioned in my drawing (unfortunately removed  ), Nintendo, as a company, has to show that they're dealing with the problem somehow. You're free to dislike it and to pirate it as much as you want, but as data for mobile piracy already shows, people will ABSOLUTELY bootleg the fuck out of everything if it's easy enough.

Think of it as stores: they know there are sly shoplifters. They know they will get robbed that way. They put that in the "costs" section. But they still hire guards, use anti-theft chips and do whatever it takes to stop the average person to think it would be more convenient and less risky to do it. Hell, as soon as people figured out that you could swap things inside boxes without anyone noticing, they started sealing them or storing the most expensive ones behind the counter. A store near my house had to put that glue you use for your fake teeth behind the counter because some old farts kept swapping the tube inside and put it in a cheaper box.


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## susbaconhairman (Aug 25, 2022)

*LONG LIVE PIRATES!
haha ugli text but where is the comic sans font*


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## CMDreamer (Aug 25, 2022)

This looks more like phishing, but not for stealing users' data, but their money.


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## Xzi (Aug 25, 2022)

linuxares said:


> Probably not. How else would it work offline?


When have the developers who use Denuvo ever cared about the offline experience in their games?  Usually requires online validation at least once a month, if not once a week.


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## xdarkx (Aug 25, 2022)

Would have much prefer they announce their company closing down instead.  Don't want Denuvo to mess with console games' performance as well.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

If it is software developed by humans, it'll be cracked and reverse engineered. Patches for games will be made and life will continue like this never happened.


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## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 25, 2022)

TraderPatTX said:


> If it is software developed by humans, it'll be cracked and reverse engineered. Patches for games will be made and life will continue like this never happened.


Except people who don't have CFW and Homebrew will likely have a much worse experience with these games due to poor performance and Online Activation.


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## ChibiMofo (Aug 25, 2022)

If any of you angry birds really cared about this subject, you would refuse to purchase games that have Denovo (or similar) in them. But you guys just can't help yourself. And as long as that is the case, devs will try to protect their livelihoods. Good to see that it won't cover first-party titles since Nintendo releases are the only ones I even bother playing on Yuzu.


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## TraderPatTX (Aug 25, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> Except people who don't have CFW and Homebrew will likely have a much worse experience with these games due to poor performance and Online Activation.


Then Nintendo will lose market share and their stock will tank. The shareholders will get angry and Nintendo will release a new console with no Denovo.


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## MarkDarkness (Aug 25, 2022)

Ever since I dropped the Switch and Nintendo overall 2 years ago I have been a much happier gamer. Looks like that decision will only get better with time.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

I don't have any skin in the game, but Nintendo + security usually =


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## Sono (Aug 25, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> Except the other guy literally claims that people that pirate wouldn't buy the game anyway. Well I would have had I not been able to pirate. So the claims not true.



I'll repeat what I said, and I'll also rephrase my original reply:

Just because you're one of the "wallet-first" pirates (that is, pirates if possible, otherwise falls back to just giving up and paying for it anyway), that doesn't mean that my entire reply is completely invalid.
As I said, "wallet-first" pirates are in such a minority, that I decided to not mention them.


There are "piracy always" pirates who would rather wait years for a game to be cracked than to shill out a single penny, ever. Because of this behavior, they shall not be counted as a lost sale, as they never had any intention to remove a single penny from their wallet.

There are also "buy unless very inconvenient" pirates, who end up always paying for the game sooner or later, unless they feel like they are majorly screwed over, and decide to not support such endeavour. Harsh DRM is one such example (see how Spore's DRM ended up extremely backfiring). They also sometimes tend to wait for others to risk their money (or for their pirate friends to acquire the game) to leave feedback about the game before deciding to buy it.

Not mentioned in my original reply, but at this point might as well add:

There are "pirate first, buy later" pirates, who are basically like the ones above, except they end up holding off on paying for somewhat longer. They also just test the games themselves, and decide whether it's worth their money to buy the game, instead of waiting for others to tell them. They are tiny bit in smaller numbers than the other two categories above.

There are "wallet-first" pirates who try to pirate the game if possible, but value their time enough to give up after some time, and just pay for the damn game if piracy is too difficult and/or time-intensive. GabeN's vision is to transition as much of this category as possible to storefronts which make paying for the game more convenient than piracy. They should be somewhat smaller than the above category, yet statistically still significant. Should not be more than ~10-12% of game sales at worst, but usually slightly more than 1% of sales.

There is also an odd category of piracy, which is "platform bending" (I forgot the original word used by the mp3 piracy lawsuit), which is where you have already bought the product (it doesn't have to be a game, it can also be music), and since you already have a legal copy of the product, but not in the way you might need, you transform the product to your own needs (for personal use only, never leaving your possession, and not making copies for others!). The problem usually is that you have a product in a way which is protected by such DRM that makes you unable to acquire a DRM-free copy (for example, media encrypted with unknown key, and/or Switch gamecart ASIC undumpable with unhackable Switch), so you're forced to unlawfully acquire a DRM-free copy which you can transform to fit your needs (for example, copy the music file to your DAP (Digital Audio Player), or play a Switch ROM in an emulator, which can do better visual fidelity, probably better performance, and controller support which the original console does not support).
I have statistically unsignificant data about this category, so I can't give numbers. This is a category of piracy which (I think) should be legalized, as it's completely moral (as long as you're not hurting sales, not making illegal copies for others to feed on, etc.), and it just makes the product adapt to your own needs. In fact, the best solution would be for this piracy group to not have to exist at all, as in an ideal world you could freely adapt the product to your own needs as long as it doesn't get rid of a potential sale.

Edit:
Oops, forgot the "piracy out of necessity" category.
As the name implies, it's piracy which is caused by the lack of legal ways to acquire a medium. For example games not sold anymore, games crippled by online DRM, lack (or inaccessibility) of depending hardware (like compatible CD-ROM drives, aging consoles not manufactured anymore which did not get a 1:1 chip clone, etc.), or even just simple region locks, or the only online storefronts not working properly. There is not much more to be said. I can't find the meme, but "no play, only remember" is what companies want, but we game enjoyers want to experience the art many people have sinked big chunks of their life and energy into, and not have it go to waste due to stupid reasons.


As for my statistics data, I don't remember anymore where it starts, but most of the data goes up to around 2017-2018, with a few data entries of new game sales up until 2021. The statistics are most prelevant for AAA titles, although there might have been some very successful indie titles mixed in as well.
I would link my sources if I wasn't a big enough idiot to actually save them.


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## Ferris1000 (Aug 25, 2022)

The thing I don't understand is what they try to accomplish.
If they manage to defeat piracy...great...but does they really think that they will make more money?
Pirates are Pirates and will never buy games.
Other People like me who are using a hacked Console to find new and interesting Games and are willing to buy they if they are good wouldn't have the possibility to try new games before buying them because all the companies are cheapskates who doesn't even upload a Demo to try the game that's why piracy is a good thing.

The first Game I installed on my hacked PSVITA was Rogue Legacy, I never heard of it before that Day and after I played it I loved it and bought it for the Switch from Limited Run Games.

I learned my Lesson when I bought some Games back in the Days and they sucked and I couldn't return it.

When I was 15 I bought need for Speed Underground 2 for the DS, I was dreaming about playing the awesome PC Game on the Go, when I was home I was so disappointed what a junk this DS Game was. I tried to return it but the refused to take it back.

I bought several Games in my life where I was disappointed and never played it again after the first couple of Minutes.


----------



## Sono (Aug 25, 2022)

Ferris1000 said:


> Other People like me who are using a hacked Console to find new and interesting Games and are willing to buy they if they are good wouldn't have the possibility to try new games before buying them because all the companies are cheapskates who doesn't even upload a Demo to try the game that's why piracy is a good thing.
> 
> The first Game I installed on my hacked PSVITA was Rogue Legacy, I never heard of it before that Day and after I played it I loved it and bought it for the Switch from Limited Run Games.
> 
> ...



Good point on the demos.

Although the problem with demos is that
1) they can be extremely rigged to convince you that the game is worth it when it's not
2) sometimes it's simply impossible to do without spoiling the full game due to the game's type (Last of us, or Stanley Parable are such games)
3) they take up extra disk space, sometimes easily hackable into a full copy, and need extra effort from the dev team, which could hinder the full game's progress (although this is where most people would say "git gud", and rightfully so, although in today's gamedev climate we really need to cut the poor devs a serious amount of slack)


----------



## genxor (Aug 25, 2022)

I wonder how much money they suckered out of Nintendo. I can't wait to see it backfire on them with performance issues then see it get cracked anyway.

As always the customer loses.


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## Dust2dust (Aug 25, 2022)

Ferris1000 said:


> I bought several Games in my life where I was disappointed and never played it again after the first couple of Minutes.


I can relate.  I remember buying at a premium price the game "The Terminator" for Sega Genesis way back when.  It had received raved reviews from magazines like EGM, so I thought it's a no-brainer.  The game was good, but so damn short ! It could be completed in half an hour.  I was feeling robbed.  That's why i don't feel any shame pirating nowadays.  They screwed with me back then, I'm screwing with them now.  (I know it's not the same people, but it's the general idea).


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## Viri (Aug 25, 2022)

I'll never buy a game with Denuvo. I actually wanted to buy Sonic Mania on PC, but noped out when I seen it had Denuvo. I got it on Switch instead. Which actually was for the better, because it was cheaper on Switch, due to Walmart knocking 10 dollars off, and it was the physical copy.


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## linuxares (Aug 25, 2022)

Ferris1000 said:


> The thing I don't understand is what they try to accomplish.
> If they manage to defeat piracy...great...but does they really think that they will make more money?
> Pirates are Pirates and will never buy games.


It can be all from board members asking for better security to Denuvo presenting an enticing offer. Look at Xenoblade 3. So many people come here and ask why cheats doesn't work in emulator XYZ. How many of them do you actually think owns the game?

So Nintendo might feel forced to try to halt the emulation thanks to news like that. The Switch isn't no way shape or form being replaced in this year or probably the next and already having emulators biting in to sales, will cause a reaction.


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## Yayo1990 (Aug 25, 2022)

That's cute

Unfortunately for you, I'm running Atmosphere. 

Jokes aside, wouldn't put Denuvo on Switch games kill their performance? Unless they're 2D the 3D ones already struggle by themselves. How are they going to deal with that?


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## linuxares (Aug 25, 2022)

Yayo1990 said:


> That's cute
> 
> Unfortunately for you, I'm running Atmosphere.
> 
> Jokes aside, wouldn't put Denuvo on Switch games kill their performance? Unless they're 2D the 3D ones already struggle by themselves. How are they going to deal with that?


We don't know how Denuvo will work on the Switch. It's a whole different beast compared to the PC. I personally are pessimistic when I see the name "Denuvo" since I feel it's more punishing against customers than the protection it gives.


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## Yayo1990 (Aug 25, 2022)

linuxares said:


> We don't know how Denuvo will work on the Switch. It's a whole different beast compared to the PC. I personally are pessimistic when I see the name "Denuvo" since I feel it's more punishing against customers than the protection it gives.



Legit curious to see it in action at this point.


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## linuxares (Aug 25, 2022)

Yayo1990 said:


> Legit curious to see it in action at this point.


Yepp! For all we know it might detect Atmosphere even. We all can just wait and see. For all we know, it might never be a game with Denuvo on the Switch


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## Yayo1990 (Aug 25, 2022)

linuxares said:


> Yepp! For all we know it might detect Atmosphere even. We all can just wait and see. For all we know, it might never be a game with Denuvo on the Switch


If it can detect Atmo I'll give them two, three days max before they can publish a somewhat CFW spoof like most consoles whom run CFW.


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## Carltrek (Aug 25, 2022)

gbatempfan1 said:


> Alternative release announcement here: https://blog.irdeto.com/video-gaming/emulating-nintendo-switch-games-just-got-harder/
> 
> >How does it work? It integrates seamlessly and automatically into your build toolchain and *detects differences in the way the game behaves compared to what it has been designed for*. In this way, our software can tell that your game has been tampered with – and will make it unplayable.
> 
> So it just tests for inaccuracies in emulation, I wonder is that is just perhaps timing, service call, or a cpu/gpu/fpu instruction.


Won't this also prevent the game from running on Switch with Atmosphere-Mesosphere ? As Mesosphere is clean roomed version of HOS Kernel which is very likely to introduce traceable differences.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

want to hinder, not stop, piracy, Nintendo?  actually have sales on your games, routine sales like Microsoft and Sony.  however, I did buy limbo and inside for less than $4, when they were $40 on competing consoles.  that was on the switch.  that's how you do it Nintendo.  I would never have bought the games otherwise, too expensive, and I like limbo.


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## driverdis (Aug 25, 2022)

Carltrek said:


> Won't this possibly also prevent the game, even legally obtained running on Switch with Atmosphere-Mesosphere, as Mesosphere is clean roomed version of HOS kernel which is likely to introduce traceable differences.


I see this being a real problem as the only fix to play a game without a crack would be to boot OFW and play off a legit cart. There will always be detectable differences not running Nintendo’s code.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

I have no interest in pirates; I don't care if you pirate.  what I have a problem with is people who pretend not to pirate or make excuses for why they pirate.  if Nintendo was the most pro-consumer company in the world, would that deter anyone who pirates now?  maybe some, but I doubt many.  don't insult our intelligence.


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## pedro702 (Aug 25, 2022)

Ferris1000 said:


> The thing I don't understand is what they try to accomplish.
> If they manage to defeat piracy...great...but does they really think that they will make more money?
> Pirates are Pirates and will never buy games.
> Other People like me who are using a hacked Console to find new and interesting Games and are willing to buy they if they are good wouldn't have the possibility to try new games before buying them because all the companies are cheapskates who doesn't even upload a Demo to try the game that's why piracy is a good thing.
> ...


that is why you always check a gameplay video, i always check a video of the game on youtube or something before buying, nowadays its very easy, back then it was a bit harder.


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## Laast (Aug 25, 2022)

As a company Irdeto has to extand its business and find new markets. That's why they greedily look at the console gaming industry. Nintendo using cheap and vulnerable hardware and selling millions of units is a perfect starter for them and emulators are just an excuse, an argument to give legitimity to their move.

This kind of public statement from company is usually directed to investors and potential customers (game editors) in order to reassure and to give visibility on future earnings.

Will this Denuvo protection be effective and eradiquate Nintendo piracy and emulation? Actually that's not the point (we already know that Denuvo has been hacked and still be in the future). The real point is that piracy protection is a growing business and final customers (you and me) have no say in the matter, only money and profits for investors matters.


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## MadMakuFuuma (Aug 25, 2022)

omg.... I don't buy games that have denuvo on pc, so why would I buy games that have some kind of denuvo built into a console game? if I had a blocked switch (and I don't have, nor do I want to have a switch) blocked, and this becomes reality, I would have two possibilities: 1 sell the switch. 2: unlock and only play pirated games from now on. that simple. 
the funniest thing is to see that the emulators run the game MUCH BETTER than on the console lol. I recently sold my o3dsXL precisely because of this.


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## lordofcombo (Aug 25, 2022)

For all you blinds,these measures are obviously to prevent all these new switch like devices(onexplayer Aya neo ,win600 and steam deck)from competing with minty.If it holds out I'm sure Minty well incorporate it.


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## crabycowman123 (Aug 25, 2022)

I'm looking forward to reading more about how this works after it releases. It sounds like it won't actually affect performance that much and the games won't necessarily require an internet connection? If it was a pool of random checks with 1 executing every 5 minutes, and the checks were things like floating point inconsistencies and other relatively simple tricks, then probably most people won't notice a difference.


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## console (Aug 25, 2022)

Denuvo is worst ever and hurt performance on their systems. Never buy games if come with Denuvo built in with it. Remember Steam games have Denuvo built in with them? Most people said Denuvo is worst ever and slow down or unplayable games on their PC systems.

There are where many good hackers (remove many protections from games, programs, etc) & bad hackers (to make threat to their security to get hit by nasty malware, ransomware, etc) are come from underground and dark websites would crack Denuvo inside with new games and rebuild then release out games without Denuvo later on deep internet. It will take a longer time due to biggest coding to correct them. Anyone remember RELOADED, Razor1911, Skidrow, CPY, CODEX and many other scene groups? They are work very hard to remove very annoy protections like Denuvo and other different protection security in most games.

Always remember is never buy games if come with Denuvo built in them like think of Steam games are with annoy protections and we never forget it.


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## NeoGranzon (Aug 25, 2022)

There is and always will be piracy, not only in videogames,music,movies.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> There is and always will be piracy, not only in videogames,music,movies.


I'm forced to pirate tv shows that are part of streaming services, since my parents are too stupid to drop cable.  I download them with usenet and rss feeds through sonarr.  I don't condone piracy though.  the only pirated games I play are dkc returns and nsmb wii, but it's mostly the first one.  I actually wanted to buy the games, then just use the digital versions.  I don't want to pirate at all.


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## NeoGranzon (Aug 25, 2022)

godreborn said:


> I'm forced to pirate tv shows that are part of streaming services, since my parents are too stupid to drop cable.  I download them with usenet and rss feeds through sonarr.  I don't condone piracy though.  the only pirated games I play are dkc returns and nsmb wii, but it's mostly the first one.  I actually wanted to buy the games, then just use the digital versions.  I don't want to pirate at all.


@godreborn  ,if i had to pay for everything:Netflix,Amazon Prime,Disney +,Apple TV and then buy all the games i like,i'd be sleeping under a bridge for a long time.
I prefer to spend money on food,bills,clothing and all that is necessary to live.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> @godreborn  ,if i had to pay for everything:Netflix,Amazon Prime,Disney +,Apple TV and then buy all the games i like,i'd be sleeping under a bridge for a long time.
> I prefer to spend money on food,bills,clothing and all that is necessary to live.


I've never gotten a salary that could pay for housing and food at the same time, not to mention this sort of thing.  do you really think that should be the case?  I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, because everyone needs to live.  it's just they didn't believe in me, delegated me to taking out the trash.


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## Xzi (Aug 25, 2022)

godreborn said:


> if Nintendo was the most pro-consumer company in the world, would that deter anyone who pirates now? maybe some, but I doubt many. don't insult our intelligence.


If Steam's success is anything to go by, you can definitely cut down on piracy by a ton with the right pro-consumer moves.  PC gaming was a mess circa the early 2000s, with shit ports galore and piracy being the de facto way to get games.  Now it's a market so large that none of the console manufacturers can continue to ignore it, and only one of them is dumb enough to target PC in a negative way.

So yeah, it's 100% a service issue.  Even as someone who owns a Switch I have a hard time stomaching the idea of buying new games for it which are guaranteed to run at 30 FPS with dips and lower than low graphics settings.  Enhanced ports would increase Nintendo's sales exponentially and decrease piracy exponentially.  They're just stuck in the past where the only thing that matters is proprietary hardware sales, no matter how outdated or limiting.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

Xzi said:


> If Steam's success is anything to go by, you can definitely cut down on piracy by a ton with the right pro-consumer moves.  PC gaming was a mess circa the early 2000s, with shit ports galore and piracy being the de facto way to get games.  Now it's a market so large that none of the console manufacturers can continue to ignore it, and only one of them is dumb enough to target PC in a negative way.
> 
> So yeah, it's 100% a service issue.  Even as someone who owns a Switch I have a hard time stomaching the idea of buying new games for it which are guaranteed to run at 30 FPS with dips and lower than low graphics settings.  Enhanced ports would increase Nintendo's sales exponentially and decrease piracy exponentially.  They're just stuck in the past where the only thing that matters is proprietary hardware sales, no matter how outdated or limiting.


I don't care about piracy anywhere or who pirates.   two things, I don't think that pirates should have access to online stuff like ps4/5 trophy syncing, because it's not fair, to me at least.


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## NeoGranzon (Aug 25, 2022)

Xzi said:


> If Steam's success is anything to go by, you can definitely cut down on piracy by a ton with the right pro-consumer moves.  PC gaming was a mess circa the early 2000s, with shit ports galore and piracy being the de facto way to get games.  Now it's a market so large that none of the console manufacturers can continue to ignore it, and only one of them is dumb enough to target PC in a negative way.
> 
> So yeah, it's 100% a service issue.  Even as someone who owns a Switch I have a hard time stomaching the idea of buying new games for it which are guaranteed to run at 30 FPS with dips and lower than low graphics settings.  Enhanced ports would increase Nintendo's sales exponentially and decrease piracy exponentially.  They're just stuck in the past where the only thing that matters is proprietary hardware sales, no matter how outdated or limiting.


@Xzi ,do you know why piracy exists? 
 The too high prices of the games.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> @Xzi ,do you know why piracy exists?
> The too high prices of the games.


I don't agree.  pirates pirate for the sake of pirating.  it doesn't get anymore complicated than that.  pirates simply pirate because they can.  it's insulting to think otherwise.


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## smf (Aug 25, 2022)

Bladexdsl said:


> yuzu devs read this and their response is: like hold ma beer


Probably, and then the C&D and court case will start.



Carltrek said:


> Won't this possibly also prevent the game, even legally obtained running on Switch with Atmosphere-Mesosphere, as Mesosphere is clean roomed version of HOS kernel which is likely to introduce traceable differences.


Maybe, but then there is no legal requirement for the game to run on Atmosphere.

Regardless, Atmosphere is not clean roomed & also violates the DMCA.


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## smf (Aug 25, 2022)

Ferris1000 said:


> If they manage to defeat piracy...great...but does they really think that they will make more money?
> Pirates are Pirates and will never buy games.


During the Wii and DS era, I know people who went from buying games to pirating because they could.

I agree that there will be pirates who pirate, most of which won't even ever play the games.

But it probably will make them more money, though it has to cover the denuvo license cost first.


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## NeoGranzon (Aug 25, 2022)

godreborn said:


> I don't agree.  pirates pirate for the sake of pirating.  it doesn't get anymore complicated than that.  pirates simply pirate because they can.  it's insulting to think otherwise.


@godreborn ,you who have many consoles should know it well,for example Xenoblade Chronicles 3 Switch costs €60 and there are limited edition games that touch €150 and in your opinion this don't favor piracy?  
If you hate gaming pirates it's a personal factor.


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## nxwing (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> @godreborn ,you who have many consoles should know it well,for example Xenoblade Chronicles 3 Switch costs €60 and there are limited edition games that touch €150 and in your opinion this don't favor piracy?
> If you hate gaming pirates it's a personal factor.


Not them but Limited Edition games usually come with extra stuff that is worth the price for collectors/fans of the game. It's not just a game that's priced at €150. It's a game AND more.


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## Xzi (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> @Xzi ,do you know why piracy exists?
> The too high prices of the games.


I can understand the frustration with the "Switch tax," but in general I don't think this is true.  You can just wait for the prices of games to fall and/or buy them used.  Takes at most a year for the vast majority to drop to 50% off.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> @godreborn ,you who have many consoles should know it well,for example Xenoblade Chronicles 3 Switch costs €60 and there are limited edition games that touch €150 and in your opinion this don't favor piracy?
> If you hate gaming pirates it's a personal factor.


I've bought many special editions, including a preorder for god of war ragnarok, and I'm on disability.  it's not about price really, a lot of people simply don't want to pay anything.  I mean a lot will not even donate five bucks to a dev who made their job easy.  I've donated over $100, and I get about $560/month.  how can you excuse that?  and, to mention, I was attacked by pirates in the ps3 scene, when I warning them.  seems like your warning someone about a girl who has an std, but people have sex with her anyway, simply because they're horny.  well, you deserve it now.


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## NeoGranzon (Aug 25, 2022)

godreborn said:


> I've bought many special editions, including a preorder for god of war ragnarok, and I'm on disability.  it's not about price really, a lot of people simply don't want to pay anything.  I mean a lot will not even donate five bucks to a dev who made their job easy.  I've donated over $100, and I get about $560/month.  how can you excuse that?  and, to mention, I was attacked by pirates in the ps3 scene, when I warning them.  seems like your warning someone about a girl who has an std, but people have sex with her anyway, simply because they're horny.  well, you deserve it now.


@godreborn ,you did not understand what i meant,if the games cost less the piracy would decrease dramatically and people would buy much more original things from music,movies,games instead of pirating them.


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> @godreborn ,you did not understand what i meant,if the games cost less the piracy would decrease dramatically and people would buy much more original things from music,movies,games instead of pirating them.


no, I understood, but a pirate is a pirate.  I can understand if you're from some third world, but most are American or European, which has nothing to do with what you're talking about.  as I said, a pirate is a pirate regardless.


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## MadMakuFuuma (Aug 25, 2022)

Xzi said:


> So yeah, it's 100% a service issue.  Even as someone who owns a Switch I have a hard time stomaching the idea of buying new games for it which are guaranteed to run at 30 FPS with dips and lower than low graphics settings.



as someone said before in one of the foruns i follow, if a person still thinks that they are going to hurt nintendo sales by using pirated games (it is not, but some people still thinks that anyway) is quite simple, really: buy a switch game, put aside and download any other version of the game, to play on emulator. but then there is the problem when you only can buy a digital version of the game ;(

ps: i dont care about Nintendo as a enterprise, to be honest. i do like a lot some of their ips


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## NeoGranzon (Aug 25, 2022)

godreborn said:


> no, I understood, but a pirate is a pirate.  I can understand if you're from some third world, but most are American or European, which has nothing to do with what you're talking about.  as I said, a pirate is a pirate regardless.


@godreborn ,from me the VAT is 22% in the USA what is it?the second-hand video game market is zero if not with Ebay or Amazon.  
I'll give you another example from me a Samsung Galaxy Fold 4 starts at € 1800 and reaches € 2279,how many think can buy it with the current crisis of the war in Ukraine, the price increase in electricity and gas?


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## spotanjo3 (Aug 25, 2022)

LOL! The Hackers will always find a way. They will always failed. Everything is hackable and it doesn't matter.


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## pokota (Aug 25, 2022)

all this is going to do is get the emulator devs to go for more accurate emulation.


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## Laast (Aug 25, 2022)

godreborn said:


> no, I understood, but a pirate is a pirate.  I can understand if you're from some third world, but most are American or European, which has nothing to do with what you're talking about.  as I said, a pirate is a pirate regardless.



What does mean "a pirate is a pirate"? Do you think there are just two kinds of people, good ones and evil ones? Good ones always buying their games at full price and evil ones always getting their games for free? You really think human behavior is as basic and binary than this?

The truth is way more complex. When someone see a product and in one hand he can get it for free and in another hand he  has to buy it, there are many factors which will determinate his behavior (price, savings, vendor, purchase benefits,...).

Money is a really subjective topic, and as long as there will be the free option versus the paid option, people will make choices and these choices are way beyond the simplistic approach of "I'm a good guy / I'm a pirate."


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## godreborn (Aug 25, 2022)

Laast said:


> What does mean "a pirate is a pirate"? Do you think there are just two kinds of people, good ones and evil ones? Good ones always buying their games at full price and evil ones always getting their games for free? You really think human behavior is as basic and binary than this?
> 
> The truth is way more complex. When someone see a product and in one hand he can get it for free and in another hand he  has to buy it, there are many factors which will determinate his behavior (price, savings, vendor, purchase benefits,...).
> 
> Money is a really subjective topic, and as long as there will be the free option versus the paid option, people will make choices and these choices are way beyond the simplistic approach of "I'm a good guy / I'm a pirate."


fuck off.  you're now on my ignore list.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 25, 2022)

Laast said:


> What does mean "a pirate is a pirate"? Do you think there are just two kinds of people, good ones and evil ones? Good ones always buying their games at full price and evil ones always getting their games for free? You really think human behavior is as basic and binary than this?
> 
> The truth is way more complex. When someone see a product and in one hand he can get it for free and in another hand he  has to buy it, there are many factors which will determinate his behavior (price, savings, vendor, purchase benefits,...).
> 
> Money is a really subjective topic, and as long as there will be the free option versus the paid option, people will make choices and these choices are way beyond the simplistic approach of "I'm a good guy / I'm a pirate."


This makes no sence....


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## Skelletonike (Aug 25, 2022)

I have no issues with it.
In case it wasn't obvious by my signature, I really dislike piracy. 

On older systems? Go ahead!

People enable piracy way too easily, heck, when I was a teenager I was way too much into piracy just because .
Are games expensive? Sure? But you can get them cheaper with time or with pre-order discounts (which is what I usually do), plus, they're not a necessity. 

Steam and a few others have cheaper prices for certain regions, but even so, those regions are rampant with piracy. Some might pirate for 'somewhat' legitimate regions, but in most cases they just pirate because they can.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 25, 2022)

Laast said:


> these choices are way beyond the simplistic approach of "I'm a good guy / I'm a pirate."


Not really... If you pirate, you're a pirate. It really is that simple. Your justifications don't change that.


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## Sheimi (Aug 25, 2022)

Watch, it will cause performance issues. Calling it.


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## djpannda (Aug 25, 2022)

... Can't wait for all the Stability updates !! Man I missed the 3ds days


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## linuxares (Aug 25, 2022)

pokota said:


> all this is going to do is get the emulator devs to go for more accurate emulation.


snes9x all over again!


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## driverdis (Aug 25, 2022)

NeoGranzon said:


> @Xzi ,do you know why piracy exists?
> The too high prices of the games.


That is simply not true for a lot of pirates. Any price is too high for some people. People pirate TV shows and Movies even if you can get them in a 5$ value bin at a retail store. 

I am sure price does matter in countries where a game is a full month’s paycheck but for other countries it is usually people who would have never paid in the first place regardless of the price or use piracy as a sort of try before you buy system.


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## Plazorn (Aug 25, 2022)

could this theoretically be used to detect hacked switches? Assuming it looks for CPU speeds, and assuming you had something like SysClk enabled?


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## WG481 (Aug 25, 2022)

Emulation is legal. Stopping emulation requires CPU processing that the Switch will have to use to make sure that the Switch is a Switch. Stopping the stopping of emulation will be another 128 kilobyte patch file.
Seems like a lot of wasted effort to stop something that doesn't harm Nintendo in the first place, while also throttling everyone's Switch experience.


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## osaka35 (Aug 25, 2022)

So they're trying to stop pirating by making pirated games play better? Weird flex.


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## JJ1013 (Aug 25, 2022)

Wasn't Denuvo for videogames on PC? It'd be pointless to have extra DRM on consoles when the console itself already has DRM, most likely.

Seems like Nintendo's getting even sussier after revealing their partnership with Tencent.


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## MrSandstorm (Aug 25, 2022)

Denuvo already has a... peculiar (let's call it that) history regarding how games with it behave performance-wise on PC. Can't wait to see what it'll do to stuff running on a 7yo mobile CPU that wasn't particularly powerful even when it initially came out.


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## The Real Jdbye (Aug 25, 2022)

Interestingly, no mention of hacked consoles. I guess they couldn't get Nintendo on board to enable similar checks for CFW and sig patches.


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## AkiraKurusu (Aug 25, 2022)

The best way to "solve Switch piracy" is to not ban people from the eShop. I wouldn't be pirating if I could be purchasing.
Plus, the more recent console models already fix the main way to enter CFW, so it's only targeting people that still have launch-model units (or have managed to get modchips, which is nowhere near as user-friendly), while punishing the far greater number of legitimate users.

In short, yet again this is pointless.


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## lolcatzuru (Aug 26, 2022)

im skeptical of this, i doubt itll go anywhere, not only is it totally gonna bog the heck out of the switch itself ( unless the rumored switch pro is more capable) but im also not sure how it can even help them...


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## TomSwitch (Aug 26, 2022)

scoobydude51 said:


> exactly why i'm not worried


Worried? You shouldn't be for for having no games you can play. A specific game you have your eyes on that uses Denuvo-19? Perhaps you should be. Anything other than a handful of AAA titles won't get any attention.



TraderPatTX said:


> If it is software developed by humans, it'll be cracked and reverse engineered. Patches for games will be made and life will continue like this never happened.


If this team is as good as the PC team it will be for a long wait if it ever happens. You might as well buy it or forget it. You do know that there is no generic hack and every game with Denuvo is custom and require significant effort and therefore a long wait or not at all for many PC games.

It will never be the same as before. Not unless the game company reject it for cost, performance or customer boycott.


----------



## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 26, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> I'm not reading all that.


I guess what they say is true, ignorance is bliss and you're about as ignorant as they come on GBAtemp.


----------



## TomSwitch (Aug 26, 2022)

Carltrek said:


> Won't this also prevent the game from running on Switch with Atmosphere-Mesosphere ? As Mesosphere is clean roomed version of HOS Kernel which is very likely to introduce traceable differences.


Atmosphere can make the game run exactly the same, perhaps dmnt needs to be disable for the game to run, the game don't have the ability to peek into the OS environment. Each official HOS release is going to create a certain traceable difference if there is such a thing, no the game company will not want to release an update every time there is a HOS update and customer won't want to buy such a game that requires the game company to be around and motivated to support. Nintendo also won't allow it as customer surely will complain not to mention any false positive that renders the game not playable.

So this Denuvo disease can make cheating impossible if they want to but to make it difficult to cheat wasn't a thing for Switch game since a long time and Denuvo didn't do that for PC.



godreborn said:


> I don't agree.  pirates pirate for the sake of pirating.  it doesn't get anymore complicated than that.  pirates simply pirate because they can.  it's insulting to think otherwise.


It's not an accurate statement, if you say many people that is probably true, if you say most then it is already questionable.
If you say that is the reason you pirate then there is no argument.

Many people buy loads of steam game to hoard them when it is cheap, so the cost is for sure a factor for many people.

Some people like to try before they buy, at least many said so. Is there less pirates thanks to Steam policy only god knows.

I sure be very happy if Nintendo let me return a game like Steam do if I quickly found that I didn't like the game. I would be buying a lot more game from Nintendo when the risk of wasting money is reduced.


----------



## TraderPatTX (Aug 26, 2022)

TomSwitch said:


> If this team is as good as the PC team it will be for a long wait if it ever happens. You might as well buy it or forget it. You do know that there is no generic hack and every game with Denuvo is custom and require significant effort and therefore a long wait or not at all for many PC games.
> 
> It will never be the same as before. Not unless the game company reject it for cost, performance or customer boycott.


You're right. The customer will decide. As soon as we quit buying and stock prices plummet. The shareholders will demand change and change will happen. That's the beauty of profit driven models. The consumer is ultimately in control. Look what happened to Sega, SNK, NEC, 3DO and Atari. Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo may think they are too big to fail, but the other ones thought the same thing before their consoles failed.


----------



## TomSwitch (Aug 26, 2022)

Plazorn said:


> could this theoretically be used to detect hacked switches? Assuming it looks for CPU speeds, and assuming you had something like SysClk enabled?


No more 60FPS hack


----------



## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 26, 2022)

I look forward to seeing all the new anti emulation anti homebrew influencer crap online related to this similar to what they did when Nintendo started banning people for pirating games.
Seems like we're going to be in for a new golden age of "NX Homebrew Misinformation" (I'm calling it that because Switch is codenamed NX and people back in the day and indeed to this very day like to spread misinformation on Switch bans and their cause).


----------



## TomSwitch (Aug 26, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> I look forward to seeing all the new anti emulation anti homebrew influencer crap online related to this similar to what they did when Nintendo started banning people for pirating games.
> Seems like we're going to be in for a new golden age of "NX Homebrew Misinformation" (I'm calling it that because Switch is codenamed NX and people back in the day and indeed to this very day like to spread misinformation on Switch bans and their cause).


There won't be any difference concerning information about whether a game can run or how well it run on an emulator.

If someone going to lie about it they could have and probably already did .


----------



## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 26, 2022)

TomSwitch said:


> There won't be any difference concerning information about whether a game can run or how well it run on an emulator.
> 
> If someone going to lie about it they could have and probably already did .


I'm referring to how back in the earlier days of the scene there was a plethora of Youtubers and influencers spreading lies and misinformation on Switch hacking and bans and how when/if this releases there will be many more doing the same, hopefully this time though people will challenge them a bit more than in the old days.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 26, 2022)

Laast said:


> What does mean "a pirate is a pirate"? Do you think there are just two kinds of people, good ones and evil ones? Good ones always buying their games at full price and evil ones always getting their games for free? You really think human behavior is as basic and binary than this?
> 
> The truth is way more complex. When someone see a product and in one hand he can get it for free and in another hand he  has to buy it, there are many factors which will determinate his behavior (price, savings, vendor, purchase benefits,...).
> 
> Money is a really subjective topic, and as long as there will be the free option versus the paid option, people will make choices and these choices are way beyond the simplistic approach of "I'm a good guy / I'm a pirate."



While this is too "high-context" for some people and I don't think it should be met with scorn or ridicule, I do think this veers some attention away from the source of the argument.  

This Denuvo for Switch may be enough to get some pirates to pay, and that is the marketing it's banking on.  Nintendo and devs are their potential customers.  It doesn't need to work.  It needs to convince potential buyers that it might work with little repercussion in the case it does not.  Most of us know Denuvo is baggage and hurts performance despite the product promise, but complaints tend to be spun into positive marketing and brand awareness anyway.

They are trying to sell the "better than not" approach, even if history disagrees.  "Fake it 'til you make it!"


----------



## realtimesave (Aug 26, 2022)

This late in the game = ultra fail.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 26, 2022)

subcon959 said:


> I think this is more about trying to get their foot in the door for Nintendo's next console.




This right here.  This is probably more of a proof of concept to get their foot in the door towards a bigger future.  It'll still make money, but it's not *their *end-game, despite the possibility that the Switch is close.


----------



## Carltrek (Aug 26, 2022)

TomSwitch said:


> Atmosphere can make the game run exactly the same, perhaps dmnt needs to be disable for the game to run, the game don't have the ability to peek into the OS environment. Each official HOS release is going to create a certain traceable difference if there is such a thing, no the game company will not want to release an update every time there is a HOS update and customer won't want to buy such a game that requires the game company to be around and motivated to support. Nintendo also won't allow it as customer surely will complain not to mention any false positive that renders the game not playable.
> 
> So this Denuvo disease can make cheating impossible if they want to but to make it difficult to cheat wasn't a thing for Switch game since a long time and Denuvo didn't do that for PC.


I am not sure if I got it correctly but as a part of the game, Denuvo for Switch is and only runs at user state? That doesn't sound safe at all as a rigged kernel/driver could easily get it disabled or spoofed. If you aren't at kernel level then you can't anti anything.
Even if the anti-piracy/anti-cheating is running at the kernel level, there are also cheats that actively does kernel confrontation but that is not that common as one step wrong, no matter the anti-cheat side or cheat side, bang, BSOD.



JJ1013 said:


> Wasn't Denuvo for videogames on PC? It'd be pointless to have extra DRM on consoles when the console itself already has DRM, most likely.
> 
> Seems like Nintendo's getting even sussier after revealing their partnership with Tencent.


When devs need to consider external security on a console, that means the DRM provided by the console sucks, like really sucks.
But third-party or self-made DRM precautions could date back to PSX era.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 26, 2022)

Carltrek said:


> When devs need to consider external security on a console, that means the DRM provided by the console sucks, like really sucks.
> But third-party or self-made DRM precautions could date back to PSX era.


Games for NES/Famicon would try to independently detect if it wasn't legit.


----------



## TomSwitch (Aug 26, 2022)

realtimesave said:


> This late in the game = ultra fail.


Actually it is not, emulation is getting good enough only not too long ago. The potential audience is unlimited unlike CFW which is limited to the number of unpatched Switch out there. Emulator can potentially run forever unlike unpatched Switch which will die out.  No, ultra is perhaps too strong a word and it's actually not late if one consider the life of emulation which can be decades. MAME is running very very old games and is kind of ever popular in a sense. 

I don't like the development anymore than anybody here. For argument sake what you said isn't true though I would rather it be true, the facts of the matter don't change by what I prefer.

Did the likes of Netflix reduce video piracy, I suspect it did. Netflix provide a superior experience at a reasonable cost. That should be the way to go rather than made paying customer suffers for virtually no benefit. Take the case of MAME, how much money is on the table if there were no MAME?



Carltrek said:


> I am not sure if I got it correctly but as a part of the game, Denuvo for Switch is and only runs at user state? That doesn't sound safe at all as a rigged kernel/driver could easily get it disabled or spoofed. If you aren't at kernel level then you can't anti anything.
> Even if the anti-piracy/anti-cheating is running at the kernel level, there are also cheats that actively does kernel confrontation but that is not that common as one step wrong, no matter the anti-cheat side or cheat side, bang, BSOD.


Can't prevent hacking but making the game unplayable is very very easy. Destroying fun for many people (most of them paying customers) will be easily achieved.


----------



## smf (Aug 26, 2022)

WG481 said:


> Emulation is legal.


Emulation can be legal, emulating commercial switch games is illegal.

You probably won't accept that, but it's true. If you were interested in why, then you would already know.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 26, 2022)

smf said:


> Emulation can be legal, emulating commercial switch games is illegal.
> 
> You probably won't accept that, but it's true. If you were interested in why, then you would already know.


DMCA at least here in the US protects citizens by allowing you to make your own copy of your media.  It's when it's distributed is when it becomes illegal, so in theory, you can legally emulate commercial Switch games as long as you rip the copy yourself and don't go and download it on a warez site.


----------



## Freqman (Aug 26, 2022)

in the grand scheme of things, the amount of people who actually own a hacked switch has to be such a small percentage of their userbase..

As for people who would set up an emulator on their pc to play switch roms? I don't know how much of a dent it actually makes in their sales.. i can't imagine it be that big of a problem. I think most people wouldn't even know how or where to find and set up a switch emulator.


----------



## urbanman2004 (Aug 26, 2022)

What a joke... Bad enough that the Switch's specs are pretty much gimped to run modern-day titles w/o making tons of compromises compared to its other console counterparts, but it has been proven that Denuvo hurts performance on PC game titles based on many users' gameplay experience (mine included), comparing 'before' to 'after' the removal of Denuvo, and if game studios/devs plan/attempt to implement this cancer of DRM onto their Switch games, they might as well be burning their own money.


----------



## urbanman2004 (Aug 26, 2022)

mituzora said:


> DMCA at least here in the US protects citizens by allowing you to make your own copy of your media.  It's when it's distributed is when it becomes illegal, so in theory, you can legally emulate commercial Switch games as long as you rip the copy yourself and don't go and download it on a warez site.


But its Nintendo's fault for not implementing a higher degree of protection onto their games and hardware to ward off hackers.


----------



## Freqman (Aug 26, 2022)

urbanman2004 said:


> What a joke... Bad enough that the Switch's specs are pretty much gimped to run modern-day titles w/o making tons of compromises compared to its other console counterparts, but it has been proven that Denuvo hurts performance on PC game titles based on many users' gameplay experience (mine included), comparing 'before' to 'after' the removal of Denuvo, and if game studios/devs plan/attempt to implement this cancer of DRM onto their Switch games, they might as well be burning their own money.


A lot of companies patch their games after like 4-5 months to get rid of Denuvo, usually because it causes problems and people complain.


----------



## gisel213 (Aug 26, 2022)

Denuvo Lolwut? Trillion's of unpatched switches hmmm = Kernel Access Sniffing Execution Code Output C'mon Nintendo... Can't the devs see everything going on i.e how roms or legitimate cartridges load up while in CFW. Meaning they can see how the so called denuvo works??? Give it a month this reminds me of those AP25 checks on DS titles like Bowser's Inside Story. I can see a universal patcher that will locate and remove it yupp just my 2 cents... Oh Yeah Long Live Emulation btw here's something cool check out nintendo switch running on a 1st generation intel xeon man this is running on a $7 to $10 dollar CPU


----------



## smf (Aug 26, 2022)

mituzora said:


> DMCA at least here in the US protects citizens by allowing you to make your own copy of your media.


Show me, because I think you're mistaken. In fact that was a criticism of DMCA, that it overrode previous law that did allow backups.

Switch emulators specifically violate the DMCA, regardless of whether you download the game or backup your own cartridge.

https://legalbeagle.com/12719622-dmca-backup-of-copyrighted-content.html
Circumvention​What the DMCA does, through DRM, is make the circumvention illegal, not the actual copying. So, now, even if you own your DVD and are trying to make a personal copy for when, not if, your children scratch the original, or you want to make a copy to watch on your computer, it is illegal to bypass DRM protection measures to make your backup. Circumvention means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating or impairing a technological measure without permission from the copyright owner. This includes bypassing iTunes DRM to copy the music files you bought or using software to break DRM locks to copy DVDs.


----------



## EnigmaExodus (Aug 26, 2022)

linuxares said:


> My bet it will look for specific things like cpu speed etc


To get a glimpse of what these protections could be look to the Wii with the 'anti-counterfeit' protections of the HackMii installer and Homebrew channel. Could remember something about the loader for either having been able to observe the fact certain IOS APIs were not stubbed correctly in emulation among other telltale signs.

Do not know much about the Horizon OS and its emulation but if certain APIs perform or return differently on emulation versus a real console you can bet certain people are going to utilise this.


----------



## mituzora (Aug 26, 2022)

smf said:


> Show me, because I think you're mistaken. In fact that was a criticism of DMCA, that it overrode previous law that did allow backups.
> 
> Switch emulators specifically violate the DMCA, regardless of whether you download the game or backup your own cartridge.
> 
> ...


well by this logic, emulators should be illegal too because they bypass CRC lockout chips, and other means of DRM.  removing the CIC lockout chip from an NES is illegal too.  

Besides, I never said anything about DRM circumvention,  I said that the COPYING was legal.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 26, 2022)

smf said:


> Emulation can be legal, emulating commercial switch games is illegal.
> 
> You probably won't accept that, but it's true. If you were interested in why, then you would already know.


Amazing how ignorant you are without even realizing it...


----------



## shadow121678 (Aug 26, 2022)

Wolfy said:


> I'll give it two weeks before the first game gets cracked and able to be played on emulators.


i give it 8 hours


----------



## nl255 (Aug 26, 2022)

Carltrek said:


> I am not sure if I got it correctly but as a part of the game, Denuvo for Switch is and only runs at user state? That doesn't sound safe at all as a rigged kernel/driver could easily get it disabled or spoofed. If you aren't at kernel level then you can't anti anything.
> Even if the anti-piracy/anti-cheating is running at the kernel level, there are also cheats that actively does kernel confrontation but that is not that common as one step wrong, no matter the anti-cheat side or cheat side, bang, BSOD.
> 
> 
> ...



Of course it only runs in userland, do you really think Nintendo is going to allow games to load kernel drivers that could bypass their security?  Hell, even 3DS games aren't allowed to use self modifying code which is why emulators that use dynamic recompilation have to be run either under recent version of Luma or as a cia.  It is highly unlikely that Nintendo allows self modifying code on the switch at all.  Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the reason behind some of the poor performace of game ports on consoles, on the PC they can use JIT interpreters for Lua and such but on modern consoles they have to use a pure interpreter which is much slower.


----------



## realtimesave (Aug 27, 2022)

TomSwitch said:


> Actually it is not, emulation is getting good enough only not too long ago. The potential audience is unlimited unlike CFW which is limited to the number of unpatched Switch out there. Emulator can potentially run forever unlike unpatched Switch which will die out.  No, ultra is perhaps too strong a word and it's actually not late if one consider the life of emulation which can be decades. MAME is running very very old games and is kind of ever popular in a sense.
> 
> I don't like the development anymore than anybody here. For argument sake what you said isn't true though I would rather it be true, the facts of the matter don't change by what I prefer.
> 
> ...


It's still fail after 25+TB of games that have come out LOL


----------



## smf (Aug 27, 2022)

Kioku_Dreams said:


> Amazing how ignorant you are without even realizing it...


I can see why you think that, but I am not sure you sufficiently understood the discussion.



mituzora said:


> well by this logic, emulators should be illegal too because they bypass CRC lockout chips, and other means of DRM.  removing the CIC lockout chip from an NES is illegal too.
> 
> Besides, I never said anything about DRM circumvention,  I said that the COPYING was legal.


CIC isn't covered by DMCA, “[n]o person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.”. CIC doesn't control access to the copyrighted data in the NES/N64 cartridge.

How are you going to backup up the cart without circumventing DRM? Even atmosphere circumvents DRM.

Any legal right to backup up carts is overridden by DMCA, the only exemption for video game consoles is when repairing optical drives.

_With respect to video game consoles, the recommended exemption is limited to one specific type of repair—namely, repair of optical drives. To be clear, if a console does not contain an optical drive, it is not eligible under this exemption; and if circumvention is done to repair any part of a console other than the optical drive, that activity too falls outside the scope of the exemption. Narrowing the exemption for consoles in this manner appropriately balances the specific adverse effects experienced by users against opponents' legitimate concerns over links between console circumvention and piracy._


----------



## smf (Aug 27, 2022)

Freqman said:


> i can't imagine it be that big of a problem. I think most people wouldn't even know how or where to find and set up a switch emulator.


Linus tech tips did a video on it, which has been viewed 1,824,371 times. If each of those viewers pirated one game each, then that would more than justify using denuvo.

With a global population of 7.97 and switch sales of 111 million, I'm not sure that "most people" is a useful metric.

I'm sure there are things that you care about in your life, that I wouldn't consider that big of a problem either. You can't tell game developers how important something is.



gisel213 said:


> Denuvo Lolwut? Trillion's of unpatched switches hmmm = Kernel Access Sniffing Execution Code Output C'mon Nintendo... Can't the devs see everything going on i.e how roms or legitimate cartridges load up while in CFW. Meaning they can see how the so called denuvo works???


What do you mean "so called?"

How good it will be depends entirely on how it works, which we don't know yet. If it can rely on attestation techniques that are difficult to reproduce in an emulator and it's buried deep in the game, then each game could take months to reverse. At that point, you probably have skills that can be rewarded far more than getting to play some nintendo switch shovelware.

Or they might just have a if (!validSystem()) ShowMessage("Go Away") that can easily be patched out in five minutes.

From a technology point of view, I hope it's more the former, as it will be more like the scene in the 80's/90's


----------



## lolcatzuru (Aug 27, 2022)

ill be honest, im not really sure HOW this will work. I mean i understand ( generally) how AP tends to work, im not sure i see an avenue here. How do you secure the keys to the kingdom the person you are securing against, already has all the keys.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2022)

smf said:


> Any legal right to backup up carts is overridden by DMCA, the only exemption for video game consoles is when repairing optical drives.


Which is why the DMCA has always been on shaky legal ground from the start, and enforcement of it is largely voluntary.  It's just a bunch of corporations trying to avoid stepping on each others' feet.


----------



## Guacaholey (Aug 27, 2022)

Chary said:


> A funny line in that post: "One Google search will show you hundreds of free emulators you can download and use to access a Nintendo Switch game"
> 
> Hundreds! There are hundreds of emulators! Forget Yuzu and Ryujinx, there's hundreds of other emulators that work perfectly!


I also like that they're claiming there are several forums dedicated to (specifically) pirating Switch games, with the most popular each (so more than one) having over 1,000,000 followers. The Switch has currently shipped 111 million units. This isn't 111 million sales to end users, this is sales to retailers. The Switch sales were only 36M to retailers before the revised model was released. I'd be surprised if there are 50 million of the original model out there. I can't imagine more 500,000 people out of that have modded consoles, let alone actually pirated games. Videos on Switch CFW installation have 50-200K views for the most part, excluding outliers like when Linus Tech Tips makes videos about emulators. Even the popular videos on how to set up Yuzu have a couple hundred thousand views each. There aren't millions of people out there pirating Switch games. I'd be surprised if there's anything over 1 million. I don't think DS piracy was as bad as people think either, cause I only remember a few people I knew having R4 cards. 

This is all just a scare tactic by the company behind Denuvo so publishers will pay to have Denuvo put into their games. The only possible way I can see it actually working without impacting performance is if every time the game starts or resumes from the home menu it checks a hash. But we already know Denuvo impacts performance on PC despite claiming otherwise, and they don't care about how the end user who pays for the software is affected.


----------



## smf (Aug 27, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Which is why the DMCA has always been on shaky legal ground from the start, and enforcement of it is largely voluntary.  It's just a bunch of corporations trying to avoid stepping on each others' feet.


DMCA is not on shaky ground. Enforcement of all laws is voluntary.


----------



## smf (Aug 27, 2022)

Guacaholey said:


> This is all just a scare tactic by the company behind Denuvo so publishers will pay to have Denuvo put into their games.


That is your opinion, they state that they were approached by publishers.

If Denuvo doesn't achieve what the publishers want, then they will stop paying for it. It will be easy for them to tell, because people won't be able to keep their mouths shut on here about how good or bad it is.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2022)

realtimesave said:


> It's still fail after 25+TB of games that have come out LOL



That logic is right on par with the idea that we don't need more video games because there are already "plenty".  I don't like it, and I don't like the DMCA, but the incentive is obvious, no matter what time they decide to start.  EOL may prove advantageous for their future pursuits as even in the case they mess something up, they can manage damage control.  Maybe Nintendo already made an agreement with them, and they agreed that this would be the best time to do a "trial run".  We don't know.

DMCA isn't for consumers, and even if something is illegal in theory, the enforcement is the law of the land.  Suing dead grandmothers and 12 year olds isn't a good look.  It's currently legal to mind your own business, but the scope of that is shrinking as days go on.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2022)

smf said:


> DMCA is not on shaky ground. Enforcement of all laws is voluntary.


DMCA conflicts with other laws that were already on the books.  It's legal to keep digital backups of physical media, no matter how much certain companies may not like it.  The reason enforcement is voluntary is because it's a civil matter, not criminal, and therefore it's all about trying to squeeze money out of people.  There were a couple trials for show some twenty years ago, and since then nothing.

The dumbest part about it is that anybody can request a DMCA takedown of anything for any reason, without having to provide proof of ownership.  It's a fucking joke of a law in 2022, and we need somebody with the money and resources to challenge it and have it removed already.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2022)

Xzi said:


> DMCA conflicts with other laws that were already on the books.  It's legal to keep digital backups of physical media, no matter how much certain companies may not like it.  The reason enforcement is voluntary is because it's a civil matter, not criminal, and therefore it's all about trying to squeeze money out of people.  There were a couple trials for show some twenty years ago, and since then nothing.
> 
> The dumbest part about it is that anybody can request a DMCA takedown of anything for any reason, without having to provide proof of ownership.  It's a fucking joke of a law in 2022, and we need somebody with the money and resources to challenge it and have it removed already.



You are mostly correct, but he's banking on the idea that it is illegal to "decrypt" those backups.  Because you aren't allowed to be smart.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 27, 2022)

tabzer said:


> You are mostly correct, but he's banking on the idea that it is illegal to "decrypt" those backups.  Because you aren't allowed to be smart.


Yeah and that's about as enforceable as the mattress tags that claim it's a felony to remove them.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Yeah and that's about as enforceable as the mattress tags that claim it's a felony to remove them.



At the risk of coming off as hypocritical, why he isn't actively engaging that is a mystery to me.  Maybe he is, in another forum.

@smf, I know why.  Just being an ass.


----------



## Guacaholey (Aug 27, 2022)

smf said:


> That is your opinion, they state that they were approached by publishers.
> 
> If Denuvo doesn't achieve what the publishers want, then they will stop paying for it. It will be easy for them to tell, because people won't be able to keep their mouths shut on here about how good or bad it is.


They outright lie several times during this announcement, so I doubt publishers are approaching them saying "Can you make our Switch releases pirate-proof?", cause that's part of the reality of console ports, your protection is things like the signatures on games. They're also claiming Denuvo doesn't affect PC performance which is a blatant lie, and that there are millions of people following Switch piracy groups. This is likely a lie too, because the most popular videos on CFW on emulation have a few hundred thousand views at best.


----------



## chrisrlink (Aug 27, 2022)

I see this is only for emulators which accounts for a small fraction of piracy of switch games steam deck aside most is on the official hardware itself Nintendo could (though illegally and could be brought up in court) scan an SD card during boot of the console/game


----------



## gisel213 (Aug 27, 2022)

I mean so called because with all the unpatched hardware out there couldn't SciresM main big time dev sniff the code and or watch what is happening... Im not on that kinda level but with a console wide open i would think so perhaps emu authors could do the same. Well atleast once its defeated isn't that how emulation comes along we will see how this is gonna go..


----------



## tabzer (Aug 27, 2022)

Guacaholey said:


> They're also claiming Denuvo doesn't affect PC performance which is a blatant lie



"Politico has investigated this claim and found that in some cases, the impact on performance could not be verified.  We rate this claim as false."


----------



## Subtle Demise (Aug 27, 2022)

Yeah there's going to be game-specific Yuzu and Ryujinx mods within days for these "protected" games, if not day one. Most them probably aren't even worth pirating to begin with. No need to be concerned with this, I think.


----------



## smf (Aug 27, 2022)

Guacaholey said:


> They outright lie several times during this announcement,


Where do they lie? How do you know that your opinion isn't just wrong?



Subtle Demise said:


> Yeah there's going to be game-specific Yuzu and Ryujinx mods within days for these "protected" games, if not day one.


Maybe, maybe not. Why care?


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 27, 2022)

smf said:


> Where do they lie? How do you know that your opinion isn't just wrong?
> 
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. Why care?


yo your sig is missing


----------



## smf (Aug 27, 2022)

sombrerosonic said:


> yo your sig is missing


yeah, they wouldn't let me slag off foxi in there because he's an op


----------



## Guacaholey (Aug 27, 2022)

smf said:


> Where do they lie? How do you know that your opinion isn't just wrong?
> 
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. Why care?


Because it's a fact that Denuvo impacts PC game performance. That's why cracked games that had Denuvo or have patches to reduce the amount of syscalls it does end up running faster than with it enabled. If the most popular sites for "Switch piracy" as they call it, we should have 1 million members.

You're essentially asking me to prove a negative. I can't prove that the 80 or 90% of developers claiming they're afraid of console game piracy and wanting DRM is accurate because they haven't proven it themselves.


----------



## Labradudette (Aug 28, 2022)

nintendo at it again with their extreme stinginess


----------



## JFizDaWiz (Aug 28, 2022)

Xzi said:


> Yeah and that's about as enforceable as the mattress tags that claim it's a felony to remove them.



did you ever read those tags? you the owner/consumer can remove them. terrible analogy.


----------



## Xzi (Aug 28, 2022)

JFizDaWiz said:


> did you ever read those tags? you the owner/consumer can remove them. terrible analogy.


You the owner can also decrypt your own backups offline, nobody would even know, same as removing the tag.  Perfectly passable analogy since everybody understood the intent, yourself included.  Now is it a perfectly _accurate_ analogy? No, but honestly who gives a shite.


----------



## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 28, 2022)

JFizDaWiz said:


> did you ever read those tags? you the owner/consumer can remove them. terrible analogy.


It is but it does have a valid point, the things done behind closed doors that doesn't harm other people (Something that harms people would be things like rape, kidnapping, domestic abuse, etc.  anyone Arguing Piracy is on this same level is mentally sick and has no credibility on the matter) even if it were illegal to remove said tag from a mattress it wouldn't be easily proveable nor worth the effort to investigate and prosecute people for it.


----------



## MRJPGames (Aug 28, 2022)

I mean this will surely point at flaws in the current emulation, which will make it more accurate to console. So I think we should thank them for pointing out the flaws in emulation, too bad they don't just fix them but need to abuse them first, but eh, it won't be effective for long (more than a couple of weeks) so w/e.


----------



## smf (Aug 28, 2022)

Guacaholey said:


> Because it's a fact that Denuvo impacts PC game performance. That's why cracked games that had Denuvo or have patches to reduce the amount of syscalls it does end up running faster than with it enabled. If the most popular sites for "Switch piracy" as they call it, we should have 1 million members.
> 
> You're essentially asking me to prove a negative. I can't prove that the 80 or 90% of developers claiming they're afraid of console game piracy and wanting DRM is accurate because they haven't proven it themselves.


Whether it's a fact that denuvo impacts PC game performance is irrelevant, you said they lied in the press release for the switch version of denuvo. It is not a fact yet whether the switch version affects switch game performance, because denuvo is a brand name and the code could be 100% different and use entirely different technology.

I don't know if gbatemp is the most popular site for switch hacking, but that is irrelevant as they are talking about emulators. gbatemp is not the most popular site for emulators. So you can't use the member count to prove anything.

I only asked you to prove claims you made, which you've failed to do for the reasons that I have stated.
You would have to perform the same type of research as they did, to dispute the claim that 84% are concerned.

Certainly you'd have to do some research to back up your claim that no developers are concerned and that denuvo has only been produced to scare them into using it.

And before anyone says that a pirated game on an emulator is not a lost sale anyway. The developers/publishers might be rather pissed at.

https://www.patreon.com/yuzuteam
5,291​PATRONS
£18,095​PER MONTH

I think WE should all be pissed about that


----------



## smf (Aug 28, 2022)

MRJPGames said:


> I mean this will surely point at flaws in the current emulation, which will make it more accurate to console. So I think we should thank them for pointing out the flaws in emulation, too bad they don't just fix them but need to abuse them first, but eh, it won't be effective for long (more than a couple of weeks) so w/e.


Well, we don't actually know. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they aren't just idiots. I don't think it would be entirely trivial to just use it as a test case for an emulator. Because as you say, emulator devs could fix it on the first day. That would be an actual waste of time for denuvo, they won't make any money on it.

What would be hilarious is if it didn't affect switch performance, but it required emulating at such a low level that it impacted emulator performance.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 28, 2022)

JFizDaWiz said:


> did you ever read those tags? you the owner/consumer can remove them. terrible analogy.



I thought it was a common (mis)understanding that people weren't allowed to remove their mattress tags because of the wording on the tag.  Not sure what the coded law says.



smf said:


> Whether it's a fact that denuvo impacts PC game performance is irrelevant



Nah.  The lying liar tells lies.  A process doing a syscheck is a process not doing something more efficient, like idling.


----------



## Davycrockof (Aug 28, 2022)

as more of a modder / tinker and less of a full blown pirate. I think this is great news. *No offense *to the kids with modded switches with no jobs


----------



## MetoMeto (Aug 29, 2022)

Xzi said:


> A couple Youtube videos of Steam Deck emulating Switch and suddenly Nintendo thinks Switch piracy is "rampant."  Hilarious.  Also a total waste of money on the tail end of Switch's lifespan, and a performance hit on already-limited hardware.


they got money to waste though


----------



## DarkCoffe64 (Aug 29, 2022)

smf said:


> 5,291
> PATRONS
> £18,095​PER MONTH
> 
> I think WE should all be pissed about that


I would agree with you if the emulator was, like, behind a paywall or something. But it's free to download and use...
That's more of a "If you'd like, support us, thank you"
Nobody's forcing ya to pay for the emu or anything.
Oh, after reading a few of your posts, I see you're also a law-bootlicker asshole, great. You're unwelcomed in my world.
Off into the ignore pit you go.



Davycrockof said:


> as more of a modder / tinker and less of a full blown pirate. I think this is great news. *No offense *to the kids with modded switches with no jobs


Enjoy your underperforming and "not working offline" games then, asshole. Would rather be friends with someone that has no job but isn't a shithead like you.
Off into my ignore list you go to rot forever and ever.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 29, 2022)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> I would agree with you if the emulator was, like, behind a paywall or something. But it's free to download and use...
> That's more of a "If you'd like, support us, thank you"
> Nobody's forcing ya to pay for the emu or anything.
> Oh, after reading a few of your posts, I see you're also a law-bootlicker asshole, great. You're unwelcomed in my world.
> ...


maybe hes pissed that they make more money than him?


----------



## Exavold (Aug 29, 2022)

If _(when ?) _this gets broken, the additional performance will be another argument for why you should mod your Switch and/or play on Emulator. Stupid.


----------



## Guacaholey (Aug 29, 2022)

smf said:


> Whether it's a fact that denuvo impacts PC game performance is irrelevant, you said they lied in the press release for the switch version of denuvo. It is not a fact yet whether the switch version affects switch game performance, because denuvo is a brand name and the code could be 100% different and use entirely different technology.
> 
> I don't know if gbatemp is the most popular site for switch hacking, but that is irrelevant as they are talking about emulators. gbatemp is not the most popular site for emulators. So you can't use the member count to prove anything.
> 
> ...


They literally claimed in the same press release that Denuvo doesn't affect performance. This is objectively incorrect as it makes way more calls than necessary increasing CPU usage by a lot. It's not my job to confirm research based on what appear to be arbitrary numbers because they didn't share any actual data. I don't need to prove a negative just because they didn't prove their claims. There's also no actual evidence "millions of followers" are looking at Switch piracy because the most popular tutorial videos on CFW and emulators don't even reach half that most of the time. Actually a lot of forums show the number of downloads on games and it's rarely anything worth being concerned about. Like maaaybe low tens of thousands on really popular titles. It's actually a pretty reasonable assumption GBAtemp is among the most popular, literally Googling "Switch homebrew" it's  like the 12th result, and the first one that isn't a tutorial or github (there's one ResetEra result above GBAtemp but ResetEra is more popular site and generally an online game journal, not a forum on consoles and homebrew like here, so that's an outlier).

Piracy also isn't a lost sale if the people pirating the game were never going to buy it. You know where piracy is really popular? Countries like Brazil and Russia where stuff like games and consoles can cost several times someone's earnings.

Also not once did I say no developers are worried about piracy. But it's generally accepted consoles are safer than PC in that regard.

Denuvo actually has caused lost sales because of how invasive it is there are people that won't buy games with it. I've never once heard anybody I know say "Even though I can afford this game why would I buy it if I can pirate it?" but I've heard plenty of people say "I'm not buying this game because it has Denuvo".

I'm also done arguing this with you because no matter what you're going to keep saying, despite objectively dubious if not factually incorrect statements coming from them "that's just your opinion, how do you know they're wrong".


Davycrockof said:


> as more of a modder / tinker and less of a full blown pirate. I think this is great news. *No offense *to the kids with modded switches with no jobs


Sounds great until some sort of extra DRM gets into the actual OS on top of requiring signed packages. Like you need signed packages but also the console refuses to boot anything that's not whitelisted. There's also the issue of Denuvo hogging resources because it makes unnecessary amounts of syscalls. A lot of computers that should've been able to run Monster Hunter World had issues maintaining 30 FPS because of Denuvo.


----------



## Girtana1 (Aug 29, 2022)

modded Switch is my job lol, piracy is amazing and can never be thwarted


----------



## smf (Aug 29, 2022)

Guacaholey said:


> I'm also done arguing this with you because no matter what you're going to keep saying, despite objectively dubious if not factually incorrect statements coming from them "that's just your opinion, how do you know they're wrong".


That is just your opinion, until someone looks at the switch denuvo then you can't make any conclusions.

You want to draw conclusions without evidence.


----------



## smf (Aug 29, 2022)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> Oh, after reading a few of your posts, I see you're also a law-bootlicker asshole, great. You're unwelcomed in my world.
> Off into the ignore pit you go.


Oh no, an idiot is going to ignore me. Though I'm not now going to find out what a law-bootlicker asshole is. Or what kind of idiot tells everyone what laws they do or do not adhere to on a public forum.

I also don't get pirates who want to argue that they aren't breaking the law, they seem like pussies.



Guacaholey said:


> I've never once heard anybody I know say "Even though I can afford this game why would I buy it if I can pirate it?


Maybe your friends aren't dumb enough to admit to you what they are doing?
Maybe you don't have any friends with money?

I can't answer how you have such a different experience, I just know that all my friends could buy dreamcast, original xbox, wii, ps3 & ds games & then when they could pirate them then they did.


----------



## sombrerosonic (Aug 29, 2022)

smf said:


> Oh no, an idiot is going to ignore me. Though I'm not now going to find out what a law-bootlicker asshole is. Or what kind of idiot tells everyone what laws they do or do not adhere to on a public forum.
> 
> I also don't get pirates who want to argue that they aren't breaking the law, they seem like pussies.
> 
> ...



U sure about that???? I considering that 5 FPS would be fun in minecraft


----------



## tabzer (Aug 29, 2022)

smf said:


> That is just your opinion, until someone looks at the switch denuvo then you can't make any conclusions.



It's not an opinion to say that by interpreting lines of code, that hardware is being engaged.  The only thing that can be done is to hide the obviousness of that fact.


----------



## elk1007 (Aug 30, 2022)

Chary said:


> View attachment 324118​
> Irdeto is a brand that some may not be familiar with, but many will know the name of their controversial anti-piracy software, Denuvo. After attempting to crack down on the piracy of PC games, Irdeto has set its sights on the Nintendo Switch. Believing piracy to be rampant on the platform, either through modded consoles or emulation, Irdeto has unveiled their aptly named "Nintendo Switch Emulator Protection" technology.
> 
> 
> ...



Anti-consumer and it will definitely only affect legitimate customers like every other DRM ever.


----------



## Kioku_Dreams (Aug 30, 2022)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> Oh, after reading a few of your posts, I see you're also a law-bootlicker asshole, great. You're unwelcomed in my world.
> Off into the ignore pit you go.



Not even just being a bootlicker... Just straight up ignorance...


----------



## Freqman (Aug 30, 2022)

lal 10 million ppl saw a video which means 10 million people are going to steal all gaemz !!! logic !


----------



## Eyeshyne (Aug 30, 2022)

Ahh Irdeto....A name from the past...if you were a TV lover


----------



## angelus kun (Aug 30, 2022)

i think people will not pirate if only nintendo privides a decent way to play old games and not poorly sandboxed emulated games like 3D all stars i mean Even fan Game ports are better than what nintendo does


----------



## Dash_2 (Aug 30, 2022)

Kioku_Dreams said:


> Not even just being a bootlicker... Just straight up ignorance...


Damn people really are butt hurt over this. To each their own, pirates will pirate. That’s our nature, I pirate a lot of shit. In that same breathe I also pay for a lot of stuff legit. People work like I do to make their money. Just cause y’all don’t see eye to eye, doesn’t mean y’all need to be talking like this to each other. Especially, over some Nintendo BS.


----------



## Mortjsf (Aug 30, 2022)

Wolfy said:


> I'll give it two weeks before the first game gets cracked and able to be played on emulators.


24 hours is too long


----------



## Taleweaver (Aug 30, 2022)

...

Sucks to be a legal user, I guess.

Presuming ninty has any games coming out with this crap said legal users care about in the first place.


----------



## Mortjsf (Aug 30, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> ...
> 
> Sucks to be a legal user, I guess.
> 
> Presuming ninty has any games coming out with this crap said legal users care about in the first place.


It's regardless of legal use or not, code injection slows framerate.
Generally clean code literally = efficiency.
Add in a single random occurring game tick that checks CPU use, and the CPU is diverted for a fraction of time away from the game causing a slower game no matter how you look at it.  Diverting resources away from the game makes it run slower period always period end of story period (there's a billion videos out there on this).

It hurts the end consumer, and I hope that the anti-consumer mindset starts to fail out the market.
The takeaway from this message is overall I don't support piracy, but PLEASE DONT support the developers implementing the middle finger to the consumer.

I understand piracy well enough to know that Denuvo doesn't work anyway, we proved that when someone released a zero day Denuvo exploit for NFS Heat for PC prior to the games initial release through multiple torrents, and look where that got us... (Denuvo got wind of this, and improved their DRM locking and now are partnered with Nintendo thanks to the press over it) I don't know how it was leaked but it was leaked with the full Denuvo bypass in plaintext view, and caused a huge amount of uproar.  This still worries the average consumer that they may start to not just see the decline in overall gaming experience that they're seeing now, but also now an expectation of random lag and a host of other issues.

I advise doing things the legal way, despite having posted translated rom files in the past, and current ports.  I understand the need for the developer to have some small layer of protection, but I also believe you own what you buy outright, even if there is some hidden lawyer agreement some arbitrary place and somehow some weird copyright laws blah blah blah

Denuvo ruins the end product.
Don't support the implementation of it with your wallet
Problem solved!

Now with that said in any Denuvo equipped game I support FULL piracy of said game for the removal of Denuvo ON JUST THAT REASON ALONE.  Then you can start talking about adding on Lan capability via text editing, and repacking the iso with a smaller sized compression, and you have a backup of your original game running at a faster framerate with localhost as the multiplayer connection instead of sony/xbox/nintendo servers and BAM you can play LAN with your PC emulators using the same repacked iso and they will connect through your router, and you can't do all that with Denuvo, cause good luck even attempting to get into the game files.

Bad for consumers, Bad image for Nintendo, Bad for homebrew community, A simple ""whatever"" to pirates that already understand how to bypass encryption, and longer game archival time in the future cause of this garbage.  Eventually though someone will break it, they always do, and there's always a redump.


----------



## smf (Aug 30, 2022)

tabzer said:


> It's not an opinion to say that by interpreting lines of code, that hardware is being engaged.  The only thing that can be done is to hide the obviousness of that fact.


It's an opinion to say that a product that hasn't been released yet, will work in a way that you think it will.



sombrerosonic said:


> U sure about that???? I considering that 5 FPS would be fun in minecraft



Sure about what?



Mortjsf said:


> Now with that said in any Denuvo equipped game I support FULL piracy of said game for the removal of Denuvo ON JUST THAT REASON ALONE.



I doubt they really care what you support, however for your own well being then you should look into why someone doing something they want invokes such a strong feeling that you want to destroy them.



Dash_2 said:


> Damn people really are butt hurt over this.



Yeah & what is weird is that my points were purely legal. I wasn't telling anyone what to do, just discussing what the legal situation is. How low does someones self esteem have to be to be triggered by that?


----------



## tabzer (Aug 30, 2022)

Mortjsf said:


> It's regardless of legal use or not, code injection slows framerate.
> Generally clean code literally = efficiency.
> Add in a single random occurring game tick that checks CPU use, and the CPU is diverted for a fraction of time away from the game causing a slower game no matter how you look at it.  Diverting resources away from the game makes it run slower period always period end of story period (there's a billion videos out there on this).
> 
> ...



It's like paying to go to the theater and sitting through an infomercial on how piracy is bad, or watching a DVD/Blu-ray and not being able to skip the infomercial.  Bootleggers and pirates will just clip those parts out.  With games, it's even worse, as it's beyond just a commercial sitting in the front.  It's a ever-present daemon running in the background, taxing the production throughout.  It's making people who pay for the product suffer at the off-chance that they may hinder someone who won't.



smf said:


> It's an opinion to say that a product that hasn't been released yet, will work in a way that you think it will.



You already lost this argument.

"They claim that their solution, which would run similarly to Denuvo, *would have occasional checks* to ensure the software was legitimate, and prevent the games that use it from being emulated."

You seem to suggest that this "new" DRM mechanism can operate without software or code,



smf said:


> I doubt they really care what you support,



Now the argument is that you doubt if they care about piracy.

Stupid mf.


----------



## Mortjsf (Aug 30, 2022)

smf said:


> I doubt they really care what you support, however for your own well being then you should look into why someone doing something they want invokes such a strong feeling that you want to destroy them.


It's irritating as a consumer that any company at all would invoke anti-consumer practices.

_"you should look into why someone doing something they want invokes such a strong feeling that you want to destroy them"_

I never said anything about destroying anything, I fully support the removal and defunding of Denuvo, doesn't mean I want to destroy anything, someone else will dismantle and destroy it to preserve framerate and properly archive the releases.  I'm just offering insight as to why its not cared for.  It's a legitimate concern that it could impact game performance


----------



## smf (Aug 30, 2022)

Mortjsf said:


> I never said anything about destroying anything, I fully support the removal and defunding of Denuvo, doesn't mean I want to destroy anything, someone else will dismantle and destroy it to preserve framerate and properly archive the releases.  I'm just offering insight as to why its not cared for.  It's a legitimate concern that it could impact game performance


You said you wanted to defund the publishers who use denuvo, people don't pirate denuvo they pirate the games that use it. If anything by pirating denuvo games, it will only encourage them to create more intensive versions of denuvo.

I understand the desire to preserve games, but there is no entitlement to do so.

You're still speculating that it will have an effect on frame rate. I think everyone is fully aware that if the games end up running at 1fps then it would be bad.


----------



## Taleweaver (Aug 30, 2022)

Mortjsf said:


> It's regardless of legal use or not, code injection slows framerate.
> Generally clean code literally = efficiency.
> Add in a single random occurring game tick that checks CPU use, and the CPU is diverted for a fraction of time away from the game causing a slower game no matter how you look at it.  Diverting resources away from the game makes it run slower period always period end of story period (there's a billion videos out there on this).
> 
> ...


Okay... Thanks for the mansplaining, i guess. I already knew everything you said and agree to it, but ey... Feel free to vent a bit more if that makes you happy.


----------



## Mortjsf (Aug 30, 2022)

smf said:


> You said you wanted to defund the publishers who use denuvo, people don't pirate denuvo they pirate the games that use it. If anything by pirating denuvo games, it will only encourage them to create more intensive versions of denuvo.


That's why you only pirate Denuvo titles, and fund indie title development.  Triple A gaming and large studios are dead, and I wont take this statement back.  It's a direct middle finger back to the developer teams that screwed the consumer, and yes I have personally stopped funding publishers that run anti-consumer practices.  They cant force take my money.


smf said:


> I understand the desire to preserve games, but there is no entitlement to do so.


False Sir, Internet Archive was granted an exception to DMCA ruling on this.  Literal Entitlement To Do So.  Game Archival is Necessary for a Free and Open Internet.  I want generations to come to be able to experience everything available at the press of a power button.  Archival is necessary for the same reason library's are necessary.  The bible has alot to do with explaining this, maybe you should take a read


smf said:


> You're still speculating that it will have an effect on frame rate. I think everyone is fully aware that if the games end up running at 1fps then it would be bad.


This isn't a speculation, you didn't read my post.  HUNDREDS UPON THOUSANDS of videos released about this, so many so that even Linus Tech Tips has a video on it.  This is a widely known piece of gaming community knowledge.  Framerates will be impacted, the switch is a tablet with honestly poor hardware architecture, the syscalls will tax the system unnecessarily.  Add in too many game assets at one time you can pretty much guarantee frame loss, or stuttering, or worse.  Then the developers will be stuck with the task of having to implement more game updates to fix bugs that arise from the implementation of the Denuvo software itself, instead of debugging the game itself.  Add it all together, and do the math and it makes things more or less inefficient for both parties.



Taleweaver said:


> Okay... Thanks for the mansplaining, i guess. I already knew everything you said and agree to it, but ey... Feel free to vent a bit more if that makes you happy.


You are welcome 
Venting always does a bit of good.
First Amendment, and Free Knowledge are a bit more like it though <3


----------



## tabzer (Aug 30, 2022)

Taleweaver said:


> Okay... Thanks for the mansplaining, i guess. I already knew everything you said and agree to it, but ey... Feel free to vent a bit more if that makes you happy.



The response to you read as if you said it sucks for illegal users.


----------



## Mortjsf (Aug 30, 2022)

tabzer said:


> The response to you read as if you said it sucks for illegal users.


Well it does, but it sucks for the end consumer mostly...
It also sucks for those that are in the process of archival for legal reasons (I.e. Internet Archive)
It also sucks for Nintendo's future development

It also sucks for future console news, as it sets a trend in the space that is unnecessary since we all know people will get their hands on whatever they want to regardless of laws.

I believe in ownership of a purchase, maybe it doesn't work the same where others are from, but I don't believe in "Renting the game via a license to merely play it" I believe you should own the software entirely, even if it means purchasing the updates separately (hopefully game fixes and bug patches are free)

Another thing to account for is that version 1.0 of a game has to be playable upon release from start to finish otherwise it cant be legally published, so the ownership of a title should apply when you decide to dump your own content to your own hardware, and since Denuvo gets in the way of backing up your owned titles it is 1000% undeniably anti consumer.


----------



## tabzer (Aug 30, 2022)

I agree that the move is kind of a dystopian direction for the world of gaming, but we have blockheads who can't comprehend the basic fact of code taxing hardware, let alone the existential implications.


----------



## Mortjsf (Aug 30, 2022)

smf said:


> -snip-


-snip-


smf said:


> Can you post me links to a comparison of a switch game protected with denuvo and the same game after denuvo has been removed?
> 
> Thanks


Not implemented into a current switch title as of yet.  If I had a release of a Denuvo free vs a Denuvo'd switch game I would run a side-by-side, and there would be clear indications of differences based off of solely Denuvo.

Here or Here or Here or Here or Here

Again thousands of videos will continue to drop over this.


smf said:


> -snip-


War? You are comparing Denuvo addition to war which is wrong...
If you want to go that direction with it, I can point out that any company is far more funded for war then the consumer.
I can also point to anti consumer practices causing legislation shift.
What more proof would you need then watching any video released by the man Louis Rossman himself.
Pick a video, he has a billion on anti-consumer practices, and even more regarding the sham united states real estate market.

 Don't do that unless you are ready to eat those words.

Just don't fund it, its not about destroying anything its about sending a message that Denuvo is not welcome.
I along with many others feel this way.
I also don't have to keep up with the fact you disagree over owning your purchases.
I will purely continue my own archival at the expense of big media and these triple a studios since they violently under deliver every single game.
The game studios fail to deliver a solid product, make it solid, improve on it, make it better, remove bloatware I'm all for implementing these fixes and other patches yourself if you own the game.

Now on the other hand, should poor people not play videogames until they cant afford them?

I would beg to differ that sometimes opening the market, and the titles on it leads to ethical piracy.
When I say "ethical piracy" I am talking about Project M, Translation Edits, Rom Hacks, and the like that you wouldn't otherwise have access to if the market had Denuvo protection implemented all over it back in the day.
Every single release on this site and others would have taken far more time to come out, and the same games you play now would have had massive performance deficits compared to most of the working Archival dumps that exist at the moment.



tabzer said:


> -snip-


-snip-


----------



## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 30, 2022)

Mortjsf said:


> I would beg to differ that sometimes opening the market, and the titles on it leads to ethical piracy.
> When I say "ethical piracy" I am talking about Project M, Translation Edits, Rom Hacks, and the like that you wouldn't otherwise have access to if the market had Denuvo protection implemented all over it back in the day.
> Every single release on this site and others would have taken far more time to come out, and the same games you play now would have had massive performance deficits compared to most of the working Archival dumps that exist at the moment.


Rom hacks and Translation patches are not Piracy, nor is homebrew. Distributing original game files is Piracy, simple as that. Don't be one of those people who says any modding is Piracy.


----------



## Mortjsf (Aug 30, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> Rom hacks and Translation patches are not Piracy, nor is homebrew. Distributing original game files is Piracy, simple as that. Don't be one of those people who says any modding is Piracy.


I'm saying that's what @smf implied.
If we want to go by his logic I would use that language.

I understand that its free use protected activity and isn't piracy as long as its a personally owned file, and not a downloaded one, but allowing the original brawl files to be turned into the project m iso then redistributing that iso is piracy.  Same if you remove Denuvo then release the DRM free iso, however internet archive is still granted exceptions for this under the law.

Those are specific examples, but no. All of that activity is different then pure piracy for the sake of it.


----------



## Dragon91Nippon (Aug 31, 2022)

Mortjsf said:


> I'm saying that's what @smf implied.
> If we want to go by his logic I would use that language.
> 
> I understand that its free use protected activity and isn't piracy as long as its a personally owned file, and not a downloaded one, but allowing the original brawl files to be turned into the project m iso then redistributing that iso is piracy.  Same if you remove Denuvo then release the DRM free iso, however internet archive is still granted exceptions for this under the law.
> ...


Unless I'm remembering wrong but didn't Project M have some very strict Disc requirement DRM on the count of the creators not wanting people to Pirate it?


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## Error-1-2435-8325 (Aug 31, 2022)

Oh, FUCK DENUVO. If that stupid "DRM" makes its way to Xbox, I'm never touching my Xbox again.


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## Mortjsf (Aug 31, 2022)

Dragon91Nippon said:


> Unless I'm remembering wrong but didn't Project M have some very strict Disc requirement DRM on the count of the creators not wanting people to Pirate it?


Yes, the game uses the disc license to verify the mod.  This was and I think still is standard practice on the Wii, but the entire game and mod was redumped a few different times into corresponding isos for both the wii and wii u injection tool, you would just have to go searching for the files.

If the full project iso was dumped with Brawl's iso included the entire file was indeed piracy if the copy of it online contained the entire SSBB.iso file with the mods already pre installed.

I have found a few of these that have crept up on Internet Archive, and since they were published somewhere I believe another IA user probably backed up their corresponding pages. 
I don't feel like linking them here but I will list the ones I know about.
The projects themselves are not piracy unless they are repacked with a full copy of brawl.

Project M 3.6.iso
PMEX Remix.iso
Project +.iso
Project SSBB Universe.iso

All four are full versions of recompiled Brawl, with modifications to characters and are technically piracy.

This is why certain SSBB mod sites originally got shut down, they were spreading pre-installed brawl isos.  The reason some people wanted isos pre-patched were for ease of use to import them as injectables, however its become exceedingly harder to find the correct files since alot of the projects have abandoned the games Wii/Wii U editions in favor of switch, so most people compile their own isos now with brawl builder and use usbloadergx.



Error-1-2435-8325 said:


> Oh, FUCK DENUVO. If that stupid "DRM" makes its way to Xbox, I'm never touching my Xbox again.



Well spoken... Fingers crossed we never see this...


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## chrisrlink (Aug 31, 2022)

imagine sales taking a nosedive off a cliff if/when this is implimented i just hope Pokemon SV isn't affected any other game they churn out with this attached i would be so mortified i wouldn't even pirate it let alone buy it


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## Mortjsf (Aug 31, 2022)

chrisrlink said:


> imagine sales taking a nosedive off a cliff if/when this is implimented i just hope Pokemon SV isn't affected any other game they churn out with this attached i would be so mortified i wouldn't even pirate it let alone buy it


Do it just to do it 
Pirate it just to laugh at how easy it was, then delete the game from the pure boredom that is a Denuvo title.
Also I bet the pokemon franchise stays well away from this for numerous reasons.


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## sombrerosonic (Aug 31, 2022)

Error-1-2435-8325 said:


> Oh, FUCK DENUVO. If that stupid "DRM" makes its way to Xbox, I'm never touching my Xbox again.


Dont worry Xbox has rude DRM anyways


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## smf (Aug 31, 2022)

Mortjsf said:


> I'm saying that's what @smf implied.


Nope.



Mortjsf said:


> I understand that its free use protected activity and isn't piracy as long as its a personally owned file, and not a downloaded one, but allowing the original brawl files to be turned into the project m iso then redistributing that iso is piracy.


What do you mean "protected activity?" It's still a DMCA violation.

DMCA has nothing to do with piracy.


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## Mortjsf (Aug 31, 2022)

smf said:


> Nope.
> 
> What do you mean "protected activity?" It's still a DMCA violation.
> 
> DMCA has nothing to do with piracy.


Well sorry, that's how I interpreted your response, I can only reply not make a case for why your context clues were leading to that interpretation of what you said and how you said it.

On the topic of what constitutes piracy:

DMCA has everything to do with piracy. Digital Media Copyright Alliance
This is the Acronym for the ""Big scary media rights corporation"" and they actually go after people for the content they steal.
This is to prevent others from accessing digitally restricted content, it applies to every piece of digital media not open source.
The only reason it exists is to challenge freedom of information, and to protect the owners of copyrighted works.

Dumping your own Rom is 100% legal. Romhacking is protected under fair use.  You may hack what you own legally.
Downloading content you already own off the internet archive is also fully legal and isn't piracy since you own the title.
Posting to Internet Archive is legal as long as you own a copy of what you upload.

Reposting any type of rom, or general iso file of your own backed up game for the specific purpose of others to download it, or circumventing the DRM to allow others to copy a full game is where the grey area starts and is typically the line for piracy.
This is despite pirated copies of games running more efficiently without DRM, then with it.

Part of the reason I used Project M iso, and PMEX Remix as examples is because both use not just the entirety of SSBB but also some mod files do contain game sprites, skins, and assets that are considered copyrighted material.  There is a case made for stating that certain mods directly rip game assets and skins illegally off the internet and inject them over game files.  It doesn't mean the entirety of the repacked iso is 100% illegally pulled assets just that some of the content within the mod itself (SSBB, and the sprites, sounds, movesets... etc...) is infringing on characters licensed under the Nintendo name or in some cases from Sony, or Microsoft depending on who built the mod, or redumped the game.

It turns far more illegal if it is deemed the person is profiting from the circumventing of DMCA rulings, or redistribution of protected content, or even via advertising off the hosting website that holds the infringing content.  Typically profiteering off of copyrighted content is the red zone and is entirely illegal which is why I made the distinction of ethical piracy being a thing.  Some people just want better framerates or no DRM entirely, so they purely leech and don't redistribute which breaks a cycle of what's considered as ""piracy"".  Then there are the people that sell their own copies of brawl mods, which I guess is a gray area if you only sell the mod, but still technically speaking most of the mods come from illegal sources if you aren't ripping all these assets from your own game and for personal use only, and assembling the mod yourself.

When I originally said ethical piracy, I was talking about the former grey area not the latter red zone, as the profit and incentives for doing so often don't outweigh the potential jail time, however there are instances, such as translation as well as release country restrictions that lead to a need for ethical piracy in certain situations.

I can't think of a bigger example off the top of my head then full length translated videos on youtube, full websites backed up via internet archive, your local library selling old dvds, or even the offshot p2p torrenting of a videogame repack.  They all give you the tools to find copyrighted content, its up to you to steal that content via copying and redistributing it and that is where the law is broken since the content is not owned outright.


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## smf (Sep 1, 2022)

Mortjsf said:


> DMCA has everything to do with piracy.


While DMCA has copyright in the name, and it also includes DMCA take down notices which are for copyright violations. Circumventing access controls was made illegal, whether you violate copyright or not. So in that regard, it has nothing to do with piracy.

A game translation patch that is distributed legally, because it contains none of the original content, isn't then some kind of protected use that console manufacturers have to let you use. If you want to run the game on a switch then you're going to be violating the DMCA. You might have purchased the game legally, downloaded the files to your switch and the patch applied at run time using a file system filter & so it's not piracy in any shape or form, but access controls were still bypassed.

I've not bothered with switch emulators, but if they are running the switch os then they have their own copyright and access control issues too. The sony vs connectix case decision doesn't help (despite many people believing that emulation makes everything legal). 



Mortjsf said:


> Well sorry, that's how I interpreted your response,


That sounds like a you problem. I can't control how you interpret my posts, only respond after you gleefully misinterpret them because you somehow believe it helps your argument.


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## tabzer (Sep 1, 2022)

smf said:


> While DMCA has copyright in the name, and it also includes DMCA take down notices which are for copyright violations. Circumventing access controls was made illegal, whether you violate copyright or not. So in that regard, it has nothing to do with piracy.



-snip-

The DMCA's introduction outlines the purpose of this is to protect copyright owners' means of protecting their works.   Is circumventing access control causing damage?  Not by itself--which is why this is a controversial item.  There are acknowledged exceptions of allowable circumvention because they specifically do not contradict copyright law, and would be hindered in their rights.  Not all possibilities are acknowledged; more specifically ones that are considered fringe use case, or perceptively beneficial to modders.  I'd imagine that a media company would not want to sue a modder that hasn't caused damage, as it could potentially establish a precedent that works against the industry and open them up to new channels of fast-tracked litigation.


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## bonkmaykr (Sep 1, 2022)

gbatempfan1 said:


> Alternative release announcement here: https://blog.irdeto.com/video-gaming/emulating-nintendo-switch-games-just-got-harder/
> 
> >How does it work? It integrates seamlessly and automatically into your build toolchain and *detects differences in the way the game behaves compared to what it has been designed for*. In this way, our software can tell that your game has been tampered with – and will make it unplayable.
> 
> So it just tests for inaccuracies in emulation, I wonder is that is just perhaps timing, service call, or a cpu/gpu/fpu instruction.


Talk about pointless. Targeting the rough edges emulators are constantly improving on? It won't matter in a year or two. That's not even getting into the fact antipiracy like this will just be cracked and removed anyway.

It sounds more to me like this is an integrity check system. No memory or signature difference means it won't be detected. This isn't an anti-piracy tool, this is an anti-modding tool. So it's not doing the job it promises it will do, it's sole purpose is to fuck people over.


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## smf (Sep 2, 2022)

-snip-



bonkmaykr said:


> It sounds more to me like this is an integrity check system.


Well it checks the integrity of the platform you're running on. Something like rendering a complex view and then reading back the screen and using that as a decryption key will be pretty fun to emulate properly.

Using free running timers as decryption keys is also fun.


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## Minox (Sep 2, 2022)

Just removed a bunch of nonsense offtopic posts. Don't continue this


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## pedro702 (Sep 3, 2022)

did anyone follow up on this? they did an interview and nintendo had nothing to do with this, so people can stop complaining about nintendo being the culpright or whatever for this stuff


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## Kioku_Dreams (Sep 3, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> did anyone follow up on this? they did an interview and nintendo had nothing to do with this, so people can stop complaining about nintendo being the culpright or whatever for this stuff



Says Denuvo never hurts in game performance...


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## tabzer (Sep 3, 2022)

"What was this then?"

"The developer implemented Denuvo."

"So Denuvo hurt the game performance."

"No, it was a developer's decision."

-snip-


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## such (Sep 3, 2022)

The only thing Denuvo succeeded at was making sure I don't buy games I'm interested in and thus normally would.


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## tabzer (Sep 3, 2022)

such said:


> The only thing Denuvo succeeded at was making sure I don't buy games I'm interested in and thus normally would.


Well you don't matter because you aren't a pirate.


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## such (Sep 3, 2022)

The point is, Denuvo is shit to the point where I'm more inclined to become one than to deal with all the baggage that comes with it. Yarrr.


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## LainaGabranth (Sep 3, 2022)

Piracy should be legally protected if devs add Denuvo to their game


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## such (Sep 3, 2022)

Better yet: ban this practice as anti-consumer. Which it is.


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## LainaGabranth (Sep 3, 2022)

such said:


> Better yet: ban this practice as anti-consumer. Which it is.


Also based.


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## SG854 (Sep 3, 2022)

Denuvo is great for lowering frames and give a cinematic experience.


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## Mortjsf (Sep 5, 2022)

smf said:


> A game translation patch that is distributed legally, because it contains none of the original content, isn't then some kind of protected use that console manufacturers have to let you use


I didn't say a patch itself is illegal if it doesn't contain assets... Its illegal when it contains files stolen from the original game,  or other licensed content from offline which is what some of these brawl projects have done and is a DMCA violation.

The only protected use is archival use, and there is clearly stated exceptions that the DMCA have given to the public to archive their own content, its an easy to google thing.

The reason tools exist for this, and I am for piracy in this instance is because if your console is connected online, and the original company that sold it becomes anti-consumer like what's going on right now, and they can not only break your hardware and its software but wipe everything you paid for entirely from their end.

Denuvo is a middle finger, so hand it back to them.



smf said:


> If you want to run the game on a switch then you're going to be violating the DMCA


Not true at all, for any game period that you own a copy of.

Contrary to unpopular belief its not illegal to install "Linux on a windows PC" go figure... it would be equally not illegal to run your own slideware on the switch like a linux environment, a self coded environment, a third party environment or otherwise. 

You own the hardware when you buy it, it doesn't get shipped back to the factory when you die, it is not still property of the company that sold it to you, and neither are its contents or components or the software.  What you do with it when you buy it is protected by general consumer protection clauses within most governing bodies.

If you buy a game you have the license to use its romfiles.  
If you extract the files from a card you own even via 3rd party hardware and software its a legal copy.  
Running them in your own virtual environment is legal to do.  
All you do in some cases is change the user environment or permissions on the console itself which when you have purchased the device is legal. 

If you switch things around in the operating system, or install your own software onto the hardware there are consumer protection laws that account for alterations to a device that make running and hosting your own files on things/from things legal, otherwise we wouldn't have the internet.

The legality portion only comes into play when you blatantly profit off the theft or reselling of said game assets.

There have been cases where people that did not profit from hacking also were targeted and predated upon only because of their abilities within the world of archival alone, and there are many examples in history of this.



tabzer said:


> Is circumventing access control causing damage? Not by itself--which is why this is a controversial item


Some people made mods and didn't profit from them and as a result you have the freeware and boot files accessible that you wouldn't ever have to do such a thing, and this is where circumventing access is protected.  

I don't know if it doesn't cause damage, it certainly causes revenue loss at some point for the big 3, but when companies put game protection software in their games it boils down to how finely tuned the game is for some consumers.  Although in most instances developers develop only to the point it becomes inconvenient to continue bug fixing things due to time constraints and project shifts, most people want the final revisions of the game as it sits, not the 1.0 version, or last available version before the store closed...

You could argue the revenue loss is because of a consoles death, and you can see that with the Wii U not continuing to pull the same revenue for Nintendo with the release of the switch is the leading factor for people wanting circumvention, once the Wii U closes disks are all that are left, and eventually you wont be able to update or play your games.

Either way, gamers will revert to older games, and piracy because as they age the copyright drops off them, there is less policing of abandonware, and they already don't have to worry about this crapware injection affecting their games because a pirated copy, or even just an older game itself isn't going to come with denuvo, and if it does there is a patch already somewhere.


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## DarkCoffe64 (Sep 5, 2022)

pedro702 said:


> did anyone follow up on this? they did an interview and nintendo had nothing to do with this, so people can stop complaining about nintendo being the culpright or whatever for this stuff



I mean, Denuvo already lies about their fecal DRM not impacting games, how can we believe them saying that craptendo wasn't the one asking them to implement it, lol
They're also the only company with a console on the market that would have said DRM, and using a meme from YourMovieSucks: "Mmmh, suspicious"

Wouldn't be the first time craptendo or any other company lies to our faces, mh


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## such (Sep 5, 2022)

SG854 said:


> Denuvo is great for lowering frames and give a cinematic experience.


Hand-cranked pre-talkie cinematic, yeah.


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## MrQQ (Sep 7, 2022)

Mass effect andromeda was the first denuvo game that was cracked for single player. It will happen its only a matter of time. Course the idea that anyone using emulators is purely a pirate is an incredibly narrow minded view considering some of these systems/cartidges dont work or cannot be bought anymore


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## Ampersound (Sep 7, 2022)

Guys, no need to worry!
The Switch is powerful enough to easily handle the added workload of constantly checking whether the game you're playing on your switch is being run by an emulator or not.
Let's make those games stutter (even more)!

 I highly doubt a lot of indie devs are gonna jump on this. They need to be on good terms with everybody.


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## KimKong (Sep 8, 2022)

This whole company is a joke!


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## sombrerosonic (Sep 8, 2022)

KimKong said:


> This whole company is a joke!


and not a funny one at that


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## kisamesama (Sep 8, 2022)

Nintendo deserves to be hacked and pirated


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## LightBeam (Sep 14, 2022)

Is there really a market for that ??
Are indies really going to use this kind of garbage ? They already don't on PC, I don't know why they would on Switch
They can't think for a second that online checks would work either. Imagine having to connect to the Internet on a handheld to play a solo game.


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## tabzer (Sep 15, 2022)

Doesn't piracy generally help indie developers gain followings and generate sales?


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## DCarnage (Sep 15, 2022)

Purple_Shyguy said:


> I bet Team Xecutor could have cracked it.


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## Guacaholey (Sep 15, 2022)

DarkCoffe64 said:


> I mean, Denuvo already lies about their fecal DRM not impacting games, how can we believe them saying that craptendo wasn't the one asking them to implement it, lol
> They're also the only company with a console on the market that would have said DRM, and using a meme from YourMovieSucks: "Mmmh, suspicious"
> 
> Wouldn't be the first time craptendo or any other company lies to our faces, mh


I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo pulls any game using it if it ends up impacting performance. They pulled a 3DS game that let you make games in BASIC because they were afraid after homebrew became really popular it would lead to more entry points.


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## MrQQ (Sep 15, 2022)

End of the day this seems to only affect emulators...I mean to say that they have crushed piracy on the switch despite the fact there are possibly millions of modified units out there is a bit, well bold and stupid lol


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## DarkCoffe64 (Sep 15, 2022)

Guacaholey said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo pulls any game using it if it ends up impacting performance. They pulled a 3DS game that let you make games in BASIC because they were afraid after homebrew became really popular it would lead to more entry points.


It would be soooooooooo hilarious if this Denuvo implementation ends up opening some backport to mod their crappy consoles even more easily than what we got now, hah.
But guess at best we're just gonna see angry people that their games work like crap while them pirates laugh at their misfortunes, heh.


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## ack (Dec 12, 2022)

so... have any games used this yet?


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## raxadian (Dec 12, 2022)

The Switch was launched over five years ago, and it is basically two console generations behind as it is barely as powerful as a PS3 at most. Using DRM on a dying console thst already struggles with modern games will make the games so slow it will be ridiculous.


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## Dragon91Nippon (Jan 6, 2023)

ack said:


> so... have any games used this yet?


Yeah I'd really like to know potentially what we're up against, or if this is just some bullshit they made up designed to scare us.


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## Jayro (Jan 6, 2023)

This isn't going to thwart piracy, only make it slightly more annoying to those on old Yuzu builds. And whatever that other Emulator is that has a stupid name I can never remember. Ryu-something. (They really should change the name to something non-stupid.)


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## sombrerosonic (Thursday at 7:18 PM)

Jayro said:


> This isn't going to thwart piracy, only make it slightly more annoying to those on old Yuzu builds. And whatever that other Emulator is that has a stupid name I can never remember. Ryu-something. (They really should change the name to something non-stupid.)


I prefer the name, "SwitchBlade" NGL

Seems alot..... more cooler


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