# Is exploiting a bug in a game cheating or part of the game?



## Noctosphere (Feb 23, 2019)

So yea, I just played a game of Civ Wars, a map on Warcraft III
and someone was abusing an exploit of the game
Personally, I consider that cheating

To give you an idea of what kind of exploit I'm talking about, here's the one I'm talking about
In short, Civ Wars consists in 3 lanes where units are fighting
You build Warrior camp (and eventually up them to better camp)
and they spawn warrior to your lane and they fight ennemy's warriors
there are a couple of optional modes for the game, usually, none is used
one of these mode allows you to send your worker on lanes and build there (instead of being restricted to your base)
Well here's the exploit
If your workers are building something, AI units (spawned units in this case) will focus attack the worker.
That's not a bug in the map, it'S an exploit inside Warcraft III itself
well, the host allowed the mode without asking other players
and sent his worker on the lane, near where units were fighting
and then gave an order to his owrker to build something in his base
So, my units were following his worker, couldn't reach it since they have the same movement speed
butr still, they followed ther worker while his units were attacking mine
I can't do shit about it

What do you think? Is it cheating? is it part of the game?
If he does it, should I do it myself?
Personally, I consider that cheating
Plus, it's usually impossible to do that without that optional mode
and he activated it without asking other players

Well, your though?


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## Sonic Angel Knight (Feb 23, 2019)

Guess I can say is that it's unintended by the developer so it's probably is. 

Though I guess if you play against other people who had the same means of using the same tools you have, then that's between you and whoever you play with. 

But it's best to use your judgement, do you feel is dishonorable. Least that's just opinions. What one person feels is dishonorable may not be the same for others. Speed runners use "bugs" and glitches found in programming flaws to set records in games. Just saying


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## Noctosphere (Feb 23, 2019)

Sonic Angel Knight said:


> Guess I can say is that it's unintended by the developer so it's probably is.
> 
> Though I guess if you play against other people who had the same means of using the same tools you have, then that's between you and whoever you play with.
> 
> But it's best to use your judgement, do you feel is dishonorable. Least that's just opinions. What one person feels is dishonorable may not be the same for others. Speed runners use "bugs" and glitches found in programming flaws to set records in games. Just saying


I can understand speedrunner, as they don't play against other people
they cheat but it doesnt affect someone else experience


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## Idontknowwhattoputhere (Feb 23, 2019)

I say its not
Your only taking advantage of a bug in the code
Not using trainers


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## H1B1Esquire (Feb 23, 2019)

Have you seen videos of SM64 speedruns?
I'd _consider it cheating_ if they used some other means to get to Bowser, but they're just using what's in the game.

Look at "fire hopping" in MK8. It was a traction exploit, but that's how the game was designed.

Is it fair? _Probably_ _not_, but did they utilize what was given to them to fullest, yes.


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## leon315 (Feb 23, 2019)

we must ask the world known expert Todd Coward:

Me: is this a exploit or a feature?
Todd: YES!


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## AkikoKumagara (Feb 23, 2019)

Sometimes it's both, sometimes it's just the latter. It depends on if the bug you're exploiting results in an unfair advantage for the player or if you're just having a laugh at some glitch at no one's expense.
Usually, though, it's both part of the game and cheating, as it's playing the game in a way that has consequences that are unintended by the developer. Anyone who does this in online games is trash, unless they're specifically hunting for exploits to report.

Edit: I can't vote in the poll because both isn't an option, but I strongly feel that's the best option.


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## Sothis_Gamma (Feb 23, 2019)

I believe that it's a judgement thing. If the bug/exploit enables you to win when you couldn't have otherwise, it's a cheat. If the other person is using it, and then you do it as well, you are both cheating, but since you are back on even footing, it matters a bit less.
Personally, I dislike cheating and exploitative gameplay. I think that gaming should be done in the most fair way possible.


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## Taleweaver (Feb 23, 2019)

Noctosphere said:


> If your workers are building something, AI units (spawned units in this case) will focus attack the worker.
> That's not a bug in the map, it'S an exploit inside Warcraft III itself
> well, the host allowed the mode without asking other players
> and sent his worker on the lane, near where units were fighting
> ...


I'm not sure I fully understand the situation. Are you saying he sent his workers out to lure your guys into following said worker? 

And especially the last sentence...this is warcraft 3, right? While ages since I played it, I'm fairly sure that even though such an action could certainly be done (heck...I did that sort of "bait & switch" thing in the original C&C against the computer quite often  ), surely you could manually override the attack behavior of your units, right? 

If you can manually override the action...then sorry, but I neither see this as a bug nor an exploit. Without human input, there should be a balance in RTS between soldiers blindly following enemy units and blindly letting enemies with larger range beat the crap out of you. This AI may not be as good in warcraft 3, but still: it's an "all in the game" as far as I'm concerned. In fact...doesn't it take more APM (actions per minute) to set up such a bait trap than to parry it as the other party?


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## osm70 (Feb 23, 2019)

I mean... it is cheating, but it's also a part of the game.


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## Noctosphere (Feb 23, 2019)

Taleweaver said:


> I'm not sure I fully understand the situation. Are you saying he sent his workers out to lure your guys into following said worker?
> 
> And especially the last sentence...this is warcraft 3, right? While ages since I played it, I'm fairly sure that even though such an action could certainly be done (heck...I did that sort of "bait & switch" thing in the original C&C against the computer quite often  ), surely you could manually override the attack behavior of your units, right?
> 
> If you can manually override the action...then sorry, but I neither see this as a bug nor an exploit. Without human input, there should be a balance in RTS between soldiers blindly following enemy units and blindly letting enemies with larger range beat the crap out of you. This AI may not be as good in warcraft 3, but still: it's an "all in the game" as far as I'm concerned. In fact...doesn't it take more APM (actions per minute) to set up such a bait trap than to parry it as the other party?


Nope, said fighting units are purely AI
We can't control them, we control only workers in this map


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## ThoD (Feb 23, 2019)

Is it something that gives you any sort of upper hand by exploiting oversights/bugs in the game to your advantage while your opponents aren't? Then yes, it IS cheating. Is it single player though? If so, who cares? Basically as long as it doesn't ruin the other players' experience because you are getting an unfair advantage while online, it's fine, but if it's online and gives you and your opponents or even allies aren't using it or are even unaware of it, then yes, it is just plain cheating. When playing with others, anything that goes against the balance the developer of the game intended is effectively a cheat, that goes for bugs, trainers, CE, mods (that change stat values or similar), etc. as they ruin the fun for everyone else who wants to play the game as intended. If however before a match or session you talk with the people you are playing with and agree on allowing bug exploitation, that's another story.


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## Sothis_Gamma (Feb 23, 2019)

ThoD said:


> Is it something that gives you any sort of upper hand by exploiting oversights/bugs in the game to your advantage while your opponents aren't? Then yes, it IS cheating. Is it single player though? If so, who cares? Basically as long as it doesn't ruin the other players' experience because you are getting an unfair advantage while online, it's fine, but if it's online and gives you and your opponents or even allies aren't using it or are even unaware of it, then yes, it is just plain cheating. When playing with others, anything that goes against the balance the developer of the game intended is effectively a cheat, that goes for bugs, trainers, CE, mods (that change stat values or similar), etc. as they ruin the fun for everyone else who wants to play the game as intended. If however before a match or session you talk with the people you are playing with and agree on allowing bug exploitation, that's another story.


Exactly, this is what I was trying to say, you got the point across a bit better than I did, though.


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## CMDreamer (Feb 23, 2019)

IMHO, it is a matter of perspective and goals.

When you play a game trying to break records and take advantage of bugs, you're playing against yourself, because a mistake while playing means much on the final goal (breaking a record). So it's not cheating from this perpective.

But when you play against others, the goal is to defeat them (using bugs on your advantage). So, again on my perspective, this is cheating.

It all reduces to your very own ethics, nothing else.


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## The Real Jdbye (Feb 23, 2019)

It depends. If everyone's in on it, or if the host specifies that it's allowed then it's not cheating I think. In this case I would say it is. The host decides the rules, but he also has to make sure everyone is aware of the rules and everyone has to agree on them, or leave.


Noctosphere said:


> I can understand speedrunner, as they don't play against other people
> they cheat but it doesnt affect someone else experience


The speedrunning community is kind of just one big competition though.
But since everyone makes use of the bugs, it's fair and not cheating as it's allowed in the rules.


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## kuwanger (Feb 24, 2019)

Noctosphere said:


> What do you think? Is it cheating? is it part of the game?
> If he does it, should I do it myself?
> Personally, I consider that cheating



I think that answers your question.  If you think an exploit elevates to the point of cheating for whatever reason, then you shouldn't do it.  That may well mean not playing maps which have said exploit.

I've experienced similar.  In RTCW, checkpoint exploiting is a pretty traditionally exploitable thing I wouldn't consider cheating.  Yet, some forms of it I'd consider cheating--say not using it to move forward towards a goal incidentally as you die but instead committing suicide to jump back into a base to defend a target.

Sometimes, using exploits is actually the intended purpose of a map.  Like most things, it's up to you to decide if that's something you want to play.  Sometimes such can be fun.  And sometimes it seems scummy, no matter how much it's clear the designer didn't intend it that way.  *shrug*  Such is life.


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## Kioku_Dreams (Feb 24, 2019)

In multiplayer It's cheating. Using an unintentional bug in the game isn't much different than turning on a cheat code. Like in Call of Duty. There were glitches to get under the map. It's cheating and is pathetic.


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## YOUCANTSTOPME (Feb 24, 2019)

Short answer: Yes.  

Does it matter in single player gaming?  No.  

Does it matter in multiplayer?  Yes.


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## Hells Malice (Feb 24, 2019)

Exploiting a bug? Yes
Exploiting a mechanic? No

That said, I practiced super bounces in Halo 2 for days to get them online first try. Good times.


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## Taleweaver (Feb 24, 2019)

Noctosphere said:


> Nope, said fighting units are purely AI
> We can't control them, we control only workers in this map


Ah  okay. That changes the situation. 

... I haven't voted yet, but I'll probably go with 'cheating'  then.


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## Sakitoshi (Mar 4, 2019)

the thing is that while bugs are part of the game, they were never meant to be there in the first place, it shouldn't exist.
you can call them something nice, an "unexpected feature", but at the end of the day it's just cheating.


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## BoxmanWTF (Mar 4, 2019)

If everyone can do it, it's fair game despite how annoying it makes playing specific maps. (ALA Maka Wuhu or whatever it was for MK7)


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## kehkou (Mar 4, 2019)

The original Mega Man comes to mind, where you can beat various bosses by shooting a projectile and rapidly pausing and unpausing the game when it collides with the enemy.


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## Captain_N (Mar 4, 2019)

Exploiting a bug can be considered cheating when it greatly impacts the game play for others in a human  vs human game. Its at best a grey area. The glitch is part of them game and it is available to every player equally. A cheat is when one player has an added advantage not normally in the game. 

For example, when i used to play red alert 2 - yuris revenge online with others, i used to have the chronolegionear attack my own  buildings. The chrono unit has a special attack that begins to phase out a unit from existence. while the unit is being chrono'd, the unit is impervious to attack my all other units. So i would chrono  my buildings temporarily to prevent damage during air attacks. Its a nasty trick and the developers never intended it to be used that way. All the noobs thinks thats cheating. Its just that they never thought of using it that way. Its a dirty trick, but far from cheating. everyone can do the same provided you have an allied barracks.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (Mar 8, 2019)

In Call of Duty World At War on Wii there was a bug on Cliffside. You could jump into certain pixels of a particular rock formation and end up underneath the whole map. The person then could see and shoot upwards but the other players could not see him and had to avoid large areas of the map.
I do consider it cheating but there was a way to prevent it by being there first and silently killing those who tried to go under (or wait underneath the map and punish the cheaters).
These things are annoyance and are usually patched but are completely different from actual cheating by manipulating the game's code. So I would use another word. (either cheating vs hacking or exploiting vs cheating)

Also, it's sometimes hard to tell whether something is even cheating/exploiting, e.g. if you jump on a roof that you can barely reach. Are you meant to be there? Hard to say sometimes. Many example like that in FPS.


Now to the example given: I'm not sure. If it's an option you can turn on and off, I wouldn't consider it cheating. I guess if everyone does it the gameplay becomes ridiculous (i.e. it is a bad game or version of the game). Could you not see that the player had turned it on?


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## Demothene (Mar 14, 2019)

In this case i think its called Trick'cheat'n'exploit

The host allow a mode without telling others, here come the troll, he clearly try to cheat
He tricked you and the other opponents in his net, He must be a lonely toxic one.
But if the mode is allowed in the active game, you should use it too (play by the rules)

Imo... Always leave this kind of games


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