# Digital Distribution: Imagined Fears



## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

"When my harddrive/memory stick dies, the game is gone with it!"
Yes, and when your GBC cart of Pokemon Crystal dies, the game is gone with it.

"Digital copies often have DRM or protection which means you can't copy them without hacking!"
Last I checked my Sega Genesis didn't come with an official cart copier.  Last I checked my copy of Diablo 2 had DRM to prevent me from simply copying and using the copied discs.  Last I checked the Wii altered the DVD spec just enough to prevent most computers from reading+copying the discs.

"Digital copies often want internet access to play the game!"
And we all know that physical copies don't do that!  Oh wait, they do... this is not an issue with digital distribution, it's a global DRM issue.  (And there's plenty of digital titles that don't need internet access to play anyways.)

"Digitial distribution will encourage game makers to make lazy/unfinished/buggy shit!"
Action 52 says "hi".  Hey, remember how Big Rigs was so unfinished it didn't even have collision?  Game companies have always produced shit mixed in with the good titles.  Reading reviews on games before buying them is always a good idea.
Now, there are ACTUAL downsides.  Games are often many gigs nowadays and downloading them for some people can take ages, you don't get to show off the packaging, and so on... but a lot of the main reasons people list don't make much sense when you compare the complaints to how gaming with physical copies works too.


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## Law (Aug 20, 2012)

"If Steam goes down, all my games will be gone forever!"

Gaben is a Microsoft billionaire.


edit: also that first point is sometimes true with some really shitty digital distributers who have sleazy tactics (like EA Downloader used to do). Sometimes you can't redownload it, so unless you backed it up you're fucked.


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## Scott-105 (Aug 20, 2012)

I love digital distribution. Steam is like, my best friend. I have over 200 games in my steam account, and I've payed, like, maybe $1000 for all of it. The sales are fantastic. If my harddrive ever does fail, I can just redownload the game. I don't see why a lot of people have it. If I had physical copies of all my Steam games, I have no idea where I'd put them all. And the physical packaging to show off, doesn't appeal to me, really. Unless it's like, a super expensive collector's edition, which I usually don't buy anyway.


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

Law said:


> "If Steam goes down, all my games will be gone forever!"
> 
> Gaben is a Microsoft billionaire.


Not to mention Steam's offline mode severs future dependencies on the servers.



Law said:


> edit: also that first point is sometimes true with some really shitty digital distributers who have sleazy tactics (like EA Downloader used to do). Sometimes you can't redownload it, so unless you backed it up you're fucked.


I was going to make a "But some digitial companies treat users like lying dirtbags!", but covering all the companies that do that with physical copies would have tripled the size of the first post...


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## Law (Aug 20, 2012)

Rydian said:


> Law said:
> 
> 
> > "If Steam goes down, all my games will be gone forever!"
> ...



Except for if you need to download a game or verify the integrity of it's cache to fix a corrupted file.


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## Deleted_171835 (Aug 20, 2012)

*Archiving.* That's my main issue with digital distribution (at least when it isn't done in tandem with physical copies).

With services such as Steam where games are cracked pretty quickly, it isn't a problem. The issue comes with platforms such as the DSi where there is still no way to preserve games from the DSi Shop. The DSi is reaching the end of its life so we may lose access to some games forever when Nintendo decides to eventually shut down the shop.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 20, 2012)

Well over half my xbox 360 games are digital downloads.  There are a few reasons why I choose to download over purchase retail...

- Saves on storage in my entertainment center
- No discs for my 16 month old to get a hold of and destroy
- Decent deals from time to time (though not nearly as many as I'd like).  Left for Dead 2 is $30 on Xbox LIVE Marketplace and $40+ at all the game stores in my area.  Same with Orange Box being $20 on LIVE.  I'm sure that looks ridiculous to you Steam users out there, but I also am not investing $400-$2000 on a gaming PC so it's kind of a wash...
- Don't have to drag my lazy ass to a store...
- Don't have to get my lazy ass up off the couch to insert/change discs...

The only thing I wish were different would be games up for download on release rather than months later...


As far as distributors closing up their online shops...it would not be in their best interest to do so.  Would make more sense to carry purchases over to the new shops and integrate.


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## pokefloote (Aug 20, 2012)

soulx said:


> *Archiving.* That's my main issue with digital distribution (at least when it isn't done in tandem with physical copies).
> 
> With services such as Steam where games are cracked pretty quickly, it isn't a problem. The issue comes with platforms such as the DSi where there is still no way to preserve games from the DSi Shop. The DSi is reaching the end of its life so we may lose access to some games forever when Nintendo decides to eventually shut down the shop.


Lose access to buy them from the shop, but not the ability to play them on your system after purchasing, correct?


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

Law said:


> Except for if you need to download a game or verify the integrity of it's cache to fix a corrupted file.


If I lose my cart of Chrono Trigger I don't get to download a new one, and if some of the ROM get corrupted I don't have access to a service to fix it for free...



soulx said:


> *Archiving.* That's my main issue with digital distribution (at least when it isn't done in tandem with physical copies).
> 
> With services such as Steam where games are cracked pretty quickly, it isn't a problem. The issue comes with platforms such as the DSi where there is still no way to preserve games from the DSi Shop. The DSi is reaching the end of its life so we may lose access to some games forever when Nintendo decides to eventually shut down the shop.


I agree that archiving closed systems is a concern.  This is partially why the movement behind more accurate/wholesome emulation is taking off.  A few years ago people scoffed at BSNES and what it represented, but now it's doing things most other emulators can't, all for preservation.


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## Law (Aug 20, 2012)

Rydian said:


> Law said:
> 
> 
> > Except for if you need to download a game or verify the integrity of it's cache to fix a corrupted file.
> ...



And suddenly there is no point to using Steam (since apparently I don't deserve to be able to download/access games that I've bought). Back to physical media it is!


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 20, 2012)

Law said:


> (since apparently I don't deserve to be able to download/access games that I've bought)



I read this as:

(since apparently I can't be bothered to take care of the shit I pay money for...)


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## Gahars (Aug 20, 2012)

Digital distribution has its legitimate flaws, and they should be addressed, but people seem to be a bit too eager to make it their personal punching bag. No matter what form of distribution you take, there are always going to be some drawbacks.


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

Law said:


> Rydian said:
> 
> 
> > Law said:
> ...


The hell did you read my post as?

I'm pointing out that digital distribution has upsides in the form of replacement, no downsides (compared to physical media).


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## marcus134 (Aug 20, 2012)

Rydian said:


> "When my harddrive/memory stick dies, the game is gone with it!"




Actually there are 2 situation:
steam like: let you re-download your game anytime (Makes the argument irrelevant)
1 time download link: In those case, you can back-up your software installation files on a external HDD or dvd (and you'd be a fool not to do it), which is better than game cartridge/disc where you can loose your game for good more easily.



Rydian said:


> "Digital copies often have DRM or protection which means you can't copy them without hacking!"




that's a pc gaming quirk: you can't share games with your friend as easily as you can with console game cartridge/disc (depends which games, but mostly those that rely more heavily on online gameplay), it was that way before digital distribution (GOG is DRM free)



Old8oy said:


> but I also am not investing $400-$2000 on a gaming PC so it's kind of a wash...


I always laugh when people say that cause people needs a computer anyway and the big difference between a well built office comp. and a decent entry level/mainstream gaming comp. is about 120-150$ (the price of a gpu) which is actually cheaper than a gaming console + accessories + office computer.

About game prices, in the computer game market there's a lot more competition and games are priced more aggressively, games never usually keep their full price tag really long which is a striking contrast with console game where you know that almost all of the games on shelves are priced 50-60$.

And when it comes to game availability, I've always had this problem with console game where I see a good game that came out like 3-4 years ago and no game retailer in my area has it (not even in the discount bin or used section), the clerk tells me that I can't order it either and I end up pirating it. ( well, after a few times I got bored and now I just pirate right away).  The main ache about physical console game sales (and to a lesser extent computer games) is that you have to buy it during the 1-2 year shelf life of the game if you want sure to get a copy and most of the time pay the full price, even if you don't feel that the game is actually worth that much.


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

It's not just PC things, stuff like PSN purchases and Wiiware can't be copied around freely either.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 20, 2012)

I just wish people stopped complaining about digital distribution. It has plenty of upsides and plenty of downsides. Physical distribution isn't superior and neither is digital. In the end we should just be able to enjoy games.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 20, 2012)

marcus134 said:


> Old8oy said:
> 
> 
> > but I also am not investing $400-$2000 on a gaming PC so it's kind of a wash...
> ...



I'm on board with all the points you mentioned except this one.  The big difference between a well built office comp. and a decent entry level/mainstream gaming com. may be $120-$150, but how much is a "well built office comp."?  I can tell you that the only functioning computer in my home is a used laptop my wife paid $200 for so she could work from home when she was pregnant.  Are you saying for $320-$350 I could have a gaming computer that will play all the latest games?  How long before I have to update hardware to keep up with system requirements?  I paid $100 for my xbox 360 (2 1/2 years later my wife bought me a slim for Father's Day) and I'm able to play all the games I want to play.  I chose the xbox 360 because of price and convenience.  PC gaming is not for everyone and cannot be done on every budget.


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

"Used" is what throws pretty much *every single comparison* out the window, dude.


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 20, 2012)

Rydian said:


> "Used" is what throws pretty much *every single comparison* out the window, dude.



And that was exactly my point.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Aug 20, 2012)

Old8oy said:


> marcus134 said:
> 
> 
> > Old8oy said:
> ...


For that price I built my gaming PC. (Well, for $370 but close enough). This includes a case, Motherboard, CPU, RAM, GPU, 1TB HDD and PSU. Sure it's not the biggest baddest beast in the yard but its run everything I've thrown at it at medium-high to high settings. The trick is looking for deals. 

What some people don't seem to understand is you don't need a $1000 PC to play games.

Anyways, on topic, the only problem I have with Digital Distribution is my slow internet speed/low bandwidth, but that has nothing to do with the service itself.


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## Deleted_171835 (Aug 20, 2012)

PC gaming may not be as cheap in the short-term but it certainly pays off in the long-term considering you're getting AAA games on the PC for prices such as $10. There's also the added benefit of better visuals and performance, modding, the ability to use whatever controller you desire (with superior FPS controls), infinite customization, more indie games/MMOs and more.



Suprgamr232 said:


> For that price I built my gaming PC. (Well, for $370 but close enough). This includes a case, Motherboard, CPU, RAM, GPU, 1TB HDD and PSU. Sure it's not the biggest baddest beast in the yard but its run everything I've thrown at it at medium-high to high settings. The trick is looking for deals.


specs. give me them.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Aug 20, 2012)

soulx said:


> Suprgamr232 said:
> 
> 
> > For that price I built my gaming PC. (Well, for $370 but close enough). This includes a case, Motherboard, CPU, RAM, GPU, 1TB HDD and PSU. Sure it's not the biggest baddest beast in the yard but its run everything I've thrown at it at medium-high to high settings. The trick is looking for deals.
> ...


Intel i3 2100 @3.1GHz
4GB of RAM (gonna buy more soon)
GeForce 440 GT with 1GB DDR5 (It was on sale at the time so I picked it up)
700W PSU

It was a budget gaming PC, but it still runs pretty much everything.


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

Old8oy said:


> Rydian said:
> 
> 
> > &quot;Used&quot; is what throws pretty much *every single comparison* out the window, dude.
> ...


I meant new comparisons would be made, such as buying a used gaming system.

And no, I don't mean people trying to sell machines on craigslist with an 8800GTX for $100 less than they bought it for 4 years ago...


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 20, 2012)

Rydian said:


> Old8oy said:
> 
> 
> > Rydian said:
> ...



buying a used game system was exactly the comparison I used in my post.  My wife spent $200 on a used computer, I spent $100 on a used xbox.  For $300 we have our computing and gaming needs met and we have the ability to do both at the same time.  Both items were refurbished by the manufacturer.  I do not trust craigslist/ebay for anything more than game discs.

on topic, digital distribution isn't going anywhere.  In fact, it'll likely be far more prevalent with each passing console generation.  PC platforms are already to the point that you can get whatever you want whenever you want it.  It's ingrained in the gaming culture.


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## Arm73 (Aug 20, 2012)

I love digital distribution as well, ever since we started playing Mp3s instead of CDs.
Before the advent of MP3 players, I had my room full of CDs, with all the bad implications ( lack of storage space, dust collecting broken jewel cases etc..), so when I got my first MP3 player, I started slowly converting my CD collection into MP3 files, and get rid of the original discs.
Then later, I started getting my new music directly in MP3 format, thus skipping the buying/converting/storage process altogether !

Yes, games today are much bigger and still require quite a long time to download for some, but I see myself going in the same direction I went with my music collection.

Further more, since instant streaming Netflix, I got rid of my DVDs as well, who knows, with services like Onlive ( let's hope it'll be alright ) I can see myself skipping the downloading and installing process altogether.

Plus with cloud based services, I wouldn't have to worry about hard drive crashes and such.


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

Well back when digital music came out it was taking me 15 minutes to download an MP3 anyways...


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## wrettcaughn (Aug 20, 2012)

and in the world of acquisitions, companies that fold tend to get absorbed by others with few hiccups in the distribution of services...


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## Issac (Aug 20, 2012)

Law said:


> Rydian said:
> 
> 
> > Law said:
> ...





Rydian said:


> Law said:
> 
> 
> > Except for if you need to download a game or verify the integrity of it's cache to fix a corrupted file.
> ...



I think it's more you to blame if you lose a cartridge, than if you hard drive crashes and you need to re-download a game you purchased.

And talking about computer prices... My computer, without an OS, was $2550... I can however run every game I've tried in max settings.


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## Another World (Aug 20, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I just wish people stopped complaining about digital distribution. It has plenty of upsides and plenty of downsides. Physical distribution isn't superior and neither is digital. In the end we should just be able to enjoy games.



i want to enjoy my purchases for as long as the hardware works. i still enjoy my atari 2600, its life is not yet over, it runs great and still has homebrew carts produced for it. what happens if the ps4 goes completely digital, it is never hacked, and the games are never preserved? i will not be able to enjoy those purchases for much longer than the companies deems is the life of the system. that is more than enough reason to complain about digital distribution.

there is also the preservation factor. i do not know your feeling about that subject, but i personally feel that all software should be preserved for future generations. no one should have to say "it was a great game, to bad there is no way to play it any longer".

-another world


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## Rydian (Aug 20, 2012)

Issac said:


> Law said:
> 
> 
> > *Except for if you need to download a game*


I didn't bother responding to the "well you need internet access to download things" line because... _fucking duh_.  Just like you need access to a game store to to get a new copy of a disc you may have broken.



Issac said:


> I think it's more you to blame if you lose a cartridge, than if you hard drive crashes and you need to re-download a game you purchased.


Many people wipe computers (or restore from backup) when there's no need to, even outside the realm of infections and such.  Seriously, I've seen people use the vendor-supplied wipe-and-restore function when their IE start page was changed.



Another World said:


> i want to enjoy my purchases for as long as the hardware works. i still enjoy my atari 2600, its life is not yet over, it runs great and still has homebrew carts produced for it. what happens if the ps4 goes completely digital, it is never hacked, and the games are never preserved? i will not be able to enjoy those purchases for much longer than the companies deems is the life of the system. that is more than enough reason to complain about digital distribution.


I'm not seeing the problem?  Your Atari works well past the life of the system and the games are still playable, is that not true of other systems?

My Sega Genesis only died when the power supply blew, and that's an issue that can happen to any sort of device regardless of if the game copies are physical or digital...

My Gameshark for the PS2 was rendered unusable before I even got to use it, when I tripped and fell on the disc, cracking it.  It broke well within the life of the system, and was rendered unusable.



Another World said:


> there is also the preservation factor. i do not know your feeling about that subject, but i personally feel that all software should be preserved for future generations. no one should have to say "it was a great game, to bad there is no way to play it any longer".
> 
> -another world


This is why hacking and emulation are important.  If the next-gen systems are totally unhacked/unexplored, then there will be no way to play the game after the system's death, _even if they're non-digital._

Get where I'm going?  There's not nearly as much of a difference between physical and digital as people believe.


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## Another World (Aug 21, 2012)

i completely disagree. there is a rather large differences between the two.

my atari carts are carts, not roms on a flash kit. they are 30 yrs old and working just fine. non-digital media means that we can buy new (used) experiences 30 yrs later. this will most probably not be the case with digital gaming media. if the ps4 goes completely digital then our chances of enjoying those games 10, 20, or 30 yrs later becomes almost impossible. but who is to say that sony will not run an archive museum and continue to host games for the next 200 years.

there is also the difference of being able to do what we want with our copies. i can take my copy of an atari game and use it on any atari system i want. i can't do the same with my dsi-ware. digital media means they can restrict our ability to use the software we paid for on the systems it works with. i suppose the argument is that we only own the rights to the 1 copy we downloaded, if that is the case then why do companies like nintendo restrict our ability to transfer that copy?

-another world


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## Issac (Aug 21, 2012)

Rydian said:


> I didn't bother responding to the "well you need internet access to download things" line because... _fucking duh_.  Just like you need access to a game store to to get a new copy of a disc you may have broken.


Then I fail to see the relevance of that comment all in all. If steam goes down, we can't play our games. But that's where the offline-mode comes into play! We can still use it! BUT NOT if you need to redownload a game. And to that, you reply that if you lose your cartridge you don't get a new one? Or did I miss something?


Rydian said:


> Issac said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's more you to blame if you lose a cartridge, than if you hard drive crashes and you need to re-download a game you purchased.
> ...


Yes, those people might be stupid. But my guess is that someone who wipe-and-restores their computer when the IE start page is changed, doesn't own 200 games on steam. and once again, if you think it's the same loosing a physical cartridge (with box?) as a system crash losing 200 digital games on steam (And in this scenario still, steam being offline), that it's the same? I still think someone losing a physical item is more to "blame" than someone suffering from faulty hardware (hard drive crash, has happened to me several times)


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## Rydian (Aug 21, 2012)

Issac said:


> Then I fail to see the relevance of that comment all in all. If steam goes down, we can't play our games. But that's where the offline-mode comes into play! We can still use it! BUT NOT if you need to redownload a game. And to that, you reply that if you lose your cartridge you don't get a new one? Or did I miss something?


Yes, that's my point.  People often cry out that if your harddrive/stick dies you lose the game, but if your cartridge breaks you also lose the game, so it's not like digital has some huge weakness that physical doesn't there.



Issac said:


> Yes, those people might be stupid. But my guess is that someone who wipe-and-restores their computer when the IE start page is changed, doesn't own 200 games on steam.


Why does it have to be 200?  It can just be a single game for them to have the advantage of redownloading it.



Issac said:


> and once again, if you think it's the same loosing a physical cartridge (with box?) as a system crash losing 200 digital games on steam (And in this scenario still, steam being offline), that it's the same?


A "system crash" is recoverable unless it's hardware failure.



Issac said:


> I still think someone losing a physical item is more to "blame" than someone suffering from faulty hardware (hard drive crash, has happened to me several times)


RROD and YLOD say hi.

Same shit.  Your hardware dies you need to take extra steps to re-get your games, if it's possible at all.



Another World said:


> my atari carts are carts, not roms on a flash kit. they are 30 yrs old and working just fine. non-digital media means that we can buy new (used) experiences 30 yrs later. this will most probably not be the case with digital gaming media. if the ps4 goes completely digital then our chances of enjoying those games 10, 20, or 30 yrs later becomes almost impossible. but who is to say that sony will not run an archive museum and continue to host games for the next 200 years.


This is about preservation (not current play), and yes digital has downsides to preservation (since the data of a game on the whole can't be segregated from the system easily, if at all in current digital methods).



Another World said:


> there is also the difference of being able to do what we want with our copies. i can take my copy of an atari game and use it on any atari system i want. i can't do the same with my dsi-ware. digital media means they can restrict our ability to use the software we paid for on the systems it works with. i suppose the argument is that we only own the rights to the 1 copy we downloaded, if that is the case then why do companies like nintendo restrict our ability to transfer that copy?
> 
> -another world


'Cause a "transfer" is a copy with a deletion of the original.  Remove the step that results in the deletion of the original, and you have a free copy of the game.


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## Deleted_171835 (Aug 21, 2012)

Rydian said:


> This is why hacking and emulation are important.  *If the next-gen systems are totally unhacked/unexplored, then there will be no way to play the game after the system's death, even if they're non-digital.*
> 
> Get where I'm going?  There's not nearly as much of a difference between physical and digital as people believe.


Not true, you can always purchase a used copy of the game.


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## Rydian (Aug 21, 2012)

Talking about the physical system's death (or death of the original media) there.


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## xwatchmanx (Aug 23, 2012)

Rydian said:


> "When my harddrive/memory stick dies, the game is gone with it!"
> 
> Yes, and when your GBC cart of Pokemon Crystal dies, the game is gone with it.


I agree with all your points except for this one. A typical game cart "dying" (I'm assuming you mean the save battery dies) can easily be fixed with a simple battery replacement. And more modern physical mediums (discs, Vita/DS/3DS carts) are much much MUCH more durable than GBC and N64 carts (for example) used to be. Also, if my physical copy of Skyrim for 360 breaks in ten years, it's just a matter of finding a used copy on ebay for $10 or so. With digital copies, it's sometimes literally close to the exact same full price tag at which you bought it a decade ago, or else it's just not available anymore. There's no serious market for used digital games, and of course there's the issue of archiving (which SoulX already covered).


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## Another World (Aug 23, 2012)

Rydian said:


> Yes, that's my point.  People often cry out that if your harddrive/stick dies you lose the game, but if your cartridge breaks you also lose the game, so it's not like digital has some huge weakness that physical doesn't there.



if i was careless enough to damage my cart that would be my fault, something i perhaps did through stupidity or by mistake. however, speaking for myself, these things do not happen. i care for my purchases, which is why my 30 yr old atari works like its brand new. but with digital media i have no control over the removal of the content. if they decide to stop offering my purchases for download then they have effectively broken my cart for me. 

-another world


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## Rydian (Aug 23, 2012)

Another World said:


> if they decide to stop offering my purchases for download then they have effectively broken my cart for me.
> 
> -another world


How does that work?  Honest question.  The game still exists locally, in your house, and is still playable unless the company's a big dick about requiring server connections (which, as I showed, is an issue with retail copies too).


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 23, 2012)

I'd just like to say that the odds of a game disappearing forever because a service stopped offering it is very, very small. Games will live on through either piracy being available or the eventual re-releases. NES games still live on because of the Wii Store and such and I doubt Nintendo will be swiping down that service anytime soon. In fact if it wasn't for digital distribution, I really doubt people would be as informed or knowledgeable about old era video games as they are today. I see so many people younger than me say "I LOVE LINK TO THE PAST" but odds are they'd never be slamming out the money for an original cart and SNES for the game if that was the case. They probably experienced it through an emulator or digital service. And hence these games live on and are appreciated because of digital distribution.


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## Another World (Aug 23, 2012)

Rydian said:


> Another World said:
> 
> 
> > if they decide to stop offering my purchases for download then they have effectively broken my cart for me.
> ...



i'm attempting to make the point that i can buy a used atari right now and my games will work. i can also buy more games cartridges. but if a system goes completely digital i may not have that same opportunity 30 yrs later.

i don't share the same enthusiasm for digital content and its future as some in this discussion. i don't care for their control over the content. i'm also worried about the future of security. it will remain to be seen if the full dsi and 3ds are hacked. it is possible that we may lose dsi-ware and e-shop games at some point, when nintendo decides to move onto something new 10 years from now. if those things are never decrypted and backed-up we may only be playing them sporadically on used devices and again later in our memories. but, if they existed on physical carts, even with an acceptable amount of loss, they would still exist for purchase.

-another world


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## Haloman800 (Aug 23, 2012)

Excellent write up. I prefer having a digital collection to a physical collection of anything. It's easier to take my laptop with me then my entire collection of 50+ games.

I'm in the process of scanning (nearly) every important document I own, uploading it to a secure online storage "cloud" like Dropbox, then destroying the physical copy. Saves space, and I have access to it anywhere I have internet, which nowadays is virtually everywhere (Unless you have service with AT&T).


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## Rydian (Aug 23, 2012)

Another World said:


> i'm attempting to make the point that i can buy a used atari right now and my games will work. i can also buy more games cartridges. but if a system goes completely digital i may not have that same opportunity 30 yrs later.


Again that's an issue with DRM, not digital content.  For example the Humble Bundle games are offered as standalone downloads with no DRM, in 30 years you can run the installer again to get the game set up.

Yet many retail on-disc games rely on connections to the servers (I linked to a few), and those game have an uncertain future, even though they're "physical".


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## lokomelo (Aug 23, 2012)

The main reason that I prefer digital copies is that not all Physical Copies arrive to Brazil. Thats one of the reasons that made piracy reach 99,99% of Brazilian gamers.

The other reason is that here there is almost no market for used games. I cant find what I want, and I cant sell easily what I have.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Aug 23, 2012)

Haloman800 said:


> Excellent write up. I prefer having a digital collection to a physical collection of anything. It's easier to take my laptop with me then my entire collection of 50+ games.
> 
> *I'm in the process of scanning (nearly) every important document I own, uploading it to a secure online storage "cloud" like Dropbox, then destroying the physical copy.* Saves space, and I have access to it anywhere I have internet, which nowadays is virtually everywhere (Unless you have service with AT&T).


Err...I wouldn't go that far. You should _always_ have a physical backup of any important document. That's just common sense.

@[member='Rydian']
The point Another World is trying to make is that if a console goes all digital, like perhaps the PS4, chances are 30 years after the console is released there would be no way to buy more games for said console, used or otherwise. Someone else (it might have been AW as well, I dunno) said that there are chances that newer consoles like the PS4 might have such advanced encryption methods that we aren't able to hack it and make backups of these digital games. How are we supposed to buy new content if Sony doesn't offer them on their servers anymore? We can't just pirate them, the console is too secure. Sure, you can throw out the "No security is perfect" stuff, but what if it's just too hard and people loose interest? Then you're screwed.


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## Rydian (Aug 23, 2012)

*Again that's an issue with DRM*, the inability to back up and transfer your own damn copies.  Whereas things that lack DRM don't have that issue.  I can back up freeware apps on my tablet and transfer them to other tablets just fine, but ones that include license check DRM throw a wrench into the ability.

Digital != DRM.


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## MelodieOctavia (Aug 23, 2012)

Eh, I just like having the game boxes on my shelf.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Aug 23, 2012)

Rydian said:


> *Again that's an issue with DRM*, the inability to back up and transfer your own damn copies.  Whereas things that lack DRM don't have that issue.  I can back up freeware apps on my tablet and transfer them to other tablets just fine, but ones that include license check DRM throw a wrench into the ability.
> 
> Digital != DRM.


Right, and that's for a tablet. But right now we're talking about consoles. Yes, we know Digital != DRM, but I don't see DRM disappearing on a digital only console...ever without some kind of hack.

And yeah, this is a rather big "what-if" scenario and all but the point I think AW is trying to make is that it _could_ happen.

EDIT: Also, this isn't necessarily all Digital Distribution's fault. DRM is a part of it and the companies decision to make a digital-only console is as well. But all 3 together = potential bad.


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## Minox (Aug 23, 2012)

Considering how many CDs & DVDs I've had gone bad on me I'd pick digital distribution over a physical disc any day. The worst case would be Heroes of Might & Magic 3. To this date I've had to buy four copies due to discs no longer functioning with no obvious physical damage being present. The last copy I bought was a digital one from GoG though so I shouldn't have to encounter that issue anymore.


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## Another World (Aug 23, 2012)

TwinRetro said:


> Eh, I just like having the game boxes on my shelf.



you actually bring up a good point. most collectors want tangible goods. its hard to feel like you have collected anything when there is only a digital copy sitting on your console's hdd. 

-another world


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## ouch123 (Aug 23, 2012)

Another World said:


> TwinRetro said:
> 
> 
> > Eh, I just like having the game boxes on my shelf.
> ...


This is my reason for preferring physical copies. It's very satisfying to hold an old game disc or cartridge that you have fond memories of, and you don't get that satisfaction with a digital download.


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## Tom Bombadildo (Aug 23, 2012)

ouch123 said:


> This is my reason for preferring physical copies. It's very satisfying to hold an old game disc or cartridge that you have fond memories of, and you don't get that satisfaction with a digital download.


I just hold my router close to my heart and whisper sweet nothings to it.


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## tbgtbg (Aug 23, 2012)

Minox_IX said:


> Considering how many CDs & DVDs I've had gone bad on me I'd pick digital distribution over a physical disc any day.



Maybe you should just learn to properly take care of discs. Number of discs I've had go bad on me (assuming the disc wasn't defective brand new out of the box)? Zero, and I've been playing disc based games since the TurboCD.

Meanwhile, I did get some digital download songs at one point (wouldn't have done it but I got some free download codes of some sort so I figured I'd try it). Later on the company just out of the blue decides "oh hey, yeah, we're not supporting those anymore, burn 'em to a CDR or something because we ain't letting you download them anymore, sucka." So while not likely, it's certainly possible the same could happen with DD gaming services.


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## Issac (Aug 23, 2012)

Rydian said:


> Issac said:
> 
> 
> > Then I fail to see the relevance of that comment all in all. If steam goes down, we can't play our games. But that's where the offline-mode comes into play! We can still use it! BUT NOT if you need to redownload a game. And to that, you reply that if you lose your cartridge you don't get a new one? Or did I miss something?
> ...



Bolded some replies in the quote above.


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## ouch123 (Aug 23, 2012)

Suprgamr232 said:


> ouch123 said:
> 
> 
> > This is my reason for preferring physical copies. It's very satisfying to hold an old game disc or cartridge that you have fond memories of, and you don't get that satisfaction with a digital download.
> ...


*Throws router into volcano*
It was evil.


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## MelodieOctavia (Aug 24, 2012)

tbgtbg said:


> Minox_IX said:
> 
> 
> > Considering how many CDs & DVDs I've had gone bad on me I'd pick digital distribution over a physical disc any day.
> ...



Bitrot (also known as disc rot) is a very real and very common thing for disc based games. Especially if you live in fairly humid climates. Many people don't realize they have a damaged disc until they check, and check thoroughly. 

http://www.rfgeneration.com/news/disc-rot/An-important-note-to-Video-Game-Sellers-and-Buyers-1337.php


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## Minox (Aug 24, 2012)

tbgtbg said:


> Minox_IX said:
> 
> 
> > Considering how many CDs & DVDs I've had gone bad on me I'd pick digital distribution over a physical disc any day.
> ...


I know my post may make it sound like I don't handle my games with the care they require, but with it being one of my favorite games ever I've always tried to treat it with uttermost care to prevent it from being damaged. That did not stop it from all of a sudden not being read in any of my CD/DVD units though. All my other disc-based games work, and I've never had a problem with them giving up, but HoMM3 for some reason kept being plagued by this issue for me and has given me a pretty dim view on optical media.


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## Issac (Aug 24, 2012)

good thing that the error tolerance (error detection) is quite high on discs, as a small hole can be overlooked. Go to 5:55 (i wanted it to show at that time but the embedded doesn't want to) 
However it IS a problem! Not denying that!


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## euanadixon (Aug 24, 2012)

Maybe my ass is just getting old but I much preffer owning a physical copy of a game, I mean sure I can see the benefits of DD, I'd be lost without steam. But ridding physical copies all together? :/ I can't say I'd be on board


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## Rydian (Aug 24, 2012)

Suprgamr232 said:


> Right, and that's for a tablet. But right now we're talking about consoles.


Who says the conversation's limited?  Digital distribution was happening on computers _well_ before the PS3/360/Wii came along, and why is it being on a tablet not applicable?  Digital distribution is THE main avenue for iOS and Android, and these are some of the most often-used systems today.



Suprgamr232 said:


> And yeah, this is a rather big "what-if" scenario and all but the point I think AW is trying to make is that it _could_ happen.


Wiiware, PSN titles, and 360 arcade games are most often digital-only... and the issue with not being able to copy and back them up is due to DRM.  Remove the DRM, and suddenly digital-only titles can be freely backed up and moved around.

If the problem was digital distribution, then the issue would still happen as long as digital distribution was in the picture.  However in the current situations you can leave digital distribution in the picture and the problem goes away due to the removal of DRM.

Simple Fucking Logic™ dictates that the problem is DRM, not digital distribution.





tbgtbg said:


> Maybe you should just learn to properly take care of discs. Number of discs I've had go bad on me (assuming the disc wasn't defective brand new out of the box)? Zero, and I've been playing disc based games since the TurboCD.


@[member='Minox_IX']
Some types of DRM on discs can cause them to fail earlier, especially ones that count on "faded tracks" or however it's referred to, where they're printed in a way that multiple reads are needed before certain data can be read off the disc, so a one-pass done for a copy won't get all the data.  These sections are much more likely to fail totally before others since they're faded (shallow pits) to begin with.  I tried looking up what DRM HoM&M3 uses, but given the relatively-early release date it's likely it was something custom, not adoption of a third-party technology (like securom and shit).





Issac said:


> *FYI. Harddrives and usb sticks are more prone to breaking than cartridges. *


Depends on how shitty the design/manufacturing is.  People's NES systems could stop reading carts as early as a few months into the life of the system, whereas I have a 40GB harddrive from my 98SE computer that still works.

I see people buying piece of shit dell laptops from walmart for $400 that break within a few months (I can't tell you how many laptops I work on that have missing keys or cracked hinges), while I know a guy that's been using a unibody macbook pro since they came out (almost four years ago), for work, daily, and he hasn't had a single hardware issue with it.  Four years doesn't sound like much, but you might be surprised how many cheap laptops develop physical issues in less than 6 months.

And to compare game systems, the RROD and YLOD in early 360/PS3 models caused many people to be without a functional system, while other people still use their GBA in functional condition to this day.

Failures are often seen in computers because *people buy pieces of shit*.  People are incredibly prone to buy the cheapest, shittiest parts they can.  You don't see this with game systems because it's not like you have your choice of 5 brand 3DS's where some are built well and others are shit for $50 less... with game systems there's a static baseline of quality to expect with each product.  Not so with computers.  Computers give people an opportunity to throw their money away on _shit_, and it shows.

_Think about how we act when people ask about flash carts and memory cards_.  If we see somebody here wanting to buy an R4iHyper King Mega cart that hasn't been updates in 2008 simply because it's $4 less than a good cart, do we let them?  No, we tell them it's a bad idea and try to stop them from making a shitty purchase decision based on price alone.  Same thing with MicroSD cards.  If we see somebody about to buy a "32GB" _unbranded_ MicroSD from eBay for $5, do we let them?  _Hell no!_  We tell them they're about to buy a piece of shit, and we educate them on what's what and point them at a decent product that will actually serve them well and not fail with normal use.

Now take those same people that are prone to buy shit because it's cheaper, and point them at the computer world with little to no _educated_ guidance, and you'll understand why so many computers and parts break so easily.

"OMG what do computers have to do with game systems" - Last I checked game systems used RAM and processors and flash storage and harddrives, too.  If something's changed and they now run on pixie dust and cat farts, somebody please alert me.


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## Deleted_171835 (Aug 24, 2012)

Minox_IX said:


> Considering how many CDs & DVDs I've had gone bad on me I'd pick digital distribution over a physical disc any day.


I'm pretty sure that Blu-ray (used by PS3 and soon Wii U) has an added protective layer to prevent disc scratching. It shouldn't be as prevalent a problem anymore.


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## MelodieOctavia (Aug 24, 2012)

soulx said:


> Minox_IX said:
> 
> 
> > Considering how many CDs & DVDs I've had gone bad on me I'd pick digital distribution over a physical disc any day.
> ...



That's a very good thing, because that protective layer is the only thing separating the outside world from the data layer.


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## Minox (Aug 24, 2012)

Rydian said:


> tbgtbg said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you should just learn to properly take care of discs. Number of discs I've had go bad on me (assuming the disc wasn't defective brand new out of the box)? Zero, and I've been playing disc based games since the TurboCD.
> ...


To my knowledge only one of the Heroes of Might & Magic 3 expansions used copy protection (SafeDisc)and that was Armageddon's Blade. The original release, the second expansion as well as the complete version all lack copy protection. If I remember this correctly though the complete edition utilized overburning to cram in about 100-200MB of extra data that normally weren't there on most games.

The copies I had was one of the original release and two complete editions, so maybe the whole overburning procedure could explain why the latter ones went bad more quickly but that does not quite explain why my original copy went bad. Either way, I have a digital copy now and I have no plans on buying disc based games again. I'm quite contempt with digital distribution after all as it allows me to play my games with minimal hassle.



soulx said:


> Minox_IX said:
> 
> 
> > Considering how many CDs & DVDs I've had gone bad on me I'd pick digital distribution over a physical disc any day.
> ...


Blu-ray in my case sadly has no practical usage as I do not have a Blu-ray unit and I do not possess a PS3.


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## xwatchmanx (Aug 24, 2012)

I'm just gonna throw this out there: If it weren't for DRM, I would be totally for digital storage, all the way. And if it weren't for piracy, I would be totally AGAINST digital storage all the way.

Even as an honest, paying customer (except when it comes to emulating legacy systems like SNES, Genesis, etc), I WANT to be able to fall back on piracy if I need to. The main reason that I go completely digital for music is because I know that, if something happens that prevents me from using my legally purchased music (or I lose it), I'm just one torrent or .zip file away from recovering it for free, regardless of the state of my "official" copy. Same thing with emulating old games, even if I already own the hardware and games. Even if I lose all my old legal games or pirated ROMs in a fire that destroys everything, it's no freaking problem because I just have to go to one or more various unnamed ROM sites and redownload them (and since they're usually only a few megabytes, that takes only a matter of seconds).

And I'm not a heavy PC gamer, but you can bet that if I was, I would download the cracked version of the game, even if  purchased it legally, just to get away from the DRM.

So, yeah. No matter what anyone wants to say regarding piracy, it's a good fallback, even for honest people who just want to be able to freaking control what they already paid for, or recover it if it's lost, no matter what circumstances are.


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## Haloman800 (Aug 24, 2012)

Suprgamr232 said:


> Haloman800 said:
> 
> 
> > Excellent write up. I prefer having a digital collection to a physical collection of anything. It's easier to take my laptop with me then my entire collection of 50+ games.
> ...


"...in the process of scanning _(nearly) _every importan document"..

I probably shouldn't of used the word "important". What I meant is important to me.. Things like birthday cards and mementos of old events. I still have physical copies of contracts, certificates, anything like that.

Also, as I mentioned ealier, everything digital I've scanned is uploaded in multiple cloud sources (Dropbox, Box.net .com, Evernote) And I have access to them all via a webDAV client called "Otixo".


Rydian said:


> *Again that's an issue with DRM*, the inability to back up and transfer your own damn copies.  Whereas things that lack DRM don't have that issue.  I can back up freeware apps on my tablet and transfer them to other tablets just fine, but ones that include license check DRM throw a wrench into the ability.
> 
> Digital != DRM.


Assuming it's Android (it seems to be so), and you're rooted, check out "Lucky Patcher"..


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## Rydian (Aug 24, 2012)

Yeah there's always hacks to get rid of DRM, but the situation AW made (where the system in question is unhacked) is a grim one, as people won't be able to wrest their rights back.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 24, 2012)

I'd like people to name ten games with the horrific always-online DRM that we've grown to hate.

It's not like it's even that popular and it's certainly not the future. A lot of people have canned always-online DRM anyway and a lot of publishers and developers have said it does nothing.

Also for the whole "physical games can last" argument. Everything physical breaks at one point or another. No matter how well you take care of something, it'll break down eventually. Digital games, as long as the internet exists, they'll be there.


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## Deleted_171835 (Aug 25, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I'd like people to name ten games with the horrific always-online DRM that we've grown to hate.


Assassin's Creed II
Diablo III
Splinter Cell: Conviction
Driver
Command & Conquer 4
From Dust
Tom Clancy's H.A.W.X. 2
Assassin's Creed Brotherhood
Anno 2070
Company of Heroes

http://steamdrm.flib...he_Big_DRM_List


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 25, 2012)

soulx said:


> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like people to name ten games with the horrific always-online DRM that we've grown to hate.
> ...



I know for a fact that Brotherhood doesn't have always-online DRM. Assassin's Creed II, SC: Conviction, and From Dust dropped it as well.


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## Deleted_171835 (Aug 25, 2012)

Guild McCommunist said:


> I know for a fact that Brotherhood doesn't have always-online DRM. Assassin's Creed II, SC: Conviction, and From Dust dropped it as well.


I'm playing Assassins Creed II on Steam right now (look at my sig) and I can confirm that it _does_ contain always-online DRM. If I boot that UPlay shit in offline mode, I can't access my game.


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## Guild McCommunist (Aug 25, 2012)

soulx said:


> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> > I know for a fact that Brotherhood doesn't have always-online DRM. Assassin's Creed II, SC: Conviction, and From Dust dropped it as well.
> ...



My bad, I misread. The others are still valid last time I checked.


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