# Devising an "adjusting for inflation" equivalent for game console sales.



## FAST6191 (Apr 25, 2019)

When discussing film box office returns (itself something of a dubious metric but we can discuss Hollywood accounting and all that falls from it another day, if you want to do the equivalent for games then make a thread and I will be there) you will tend to be presented with either numbers adjusted for inflation right away or in the column next to it.

For those not familiar with inflation then as time goes on money buys you less, and not just over hundreds of years -- https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ . 10 million in 1980 is the better part of 31 million today. Even in 1999 then 10 million would be the equivalent of 15 million today.

Seeing that the Switch, which for now I am placing on the latest in a long line of Nintendo failures (or likely failures -- while I view it as unlikely it could get some games in the end), had surpassed the N64 (as far as sales/market share goes a failure, unless you are an American fanboy, though one with some decent games that have aged horribly) I wondered how useful a comparison that is and if something more useful could be cooked up.

Games as a general concept was mainstream at the time of the N64 but it is far more so today. Compared to the NES though... not so much. This might change in the future (if you got an Atari 2600 while it was current at age 12 then you are probably in your 50s now and might have had your kids and now their kids growing up with games), similarly games are making their way into the third world and other markets beyond the English speaking world, Europe and Japan. Population growth rates in said major markets though are stalled somewhat, if not actually shrinking,  so that could get interesting for these numbers in the future.

Sometimes people talk about attach rate which is somewhat akin to how many games a user buys. Other times sales of games compared to total console sales also comes into play, though you immediately have to ponder upgrade/refresh/red ring and ylod failures and "I just wanted a media player".
I don't see it as often but game consoles per household, similar to cars per household, might be something to consider. TVs per household is something general electronics considers from time to time, and mobile phone companies definitely care about such things for their products.
Back on game sale volumes we see developers frequently complain that sales in the millions (one time breaking a million was a feat to note) are not enough to sustain things. While this could be developers caught in the investment trap* or generally being greedy, or not reigning in their spending (computers are only getting more powerful and cheap as time goes on -- if they spend more money making a game beyond a token bit of inflation** it is because they choose to) I am not going to dismiss it completely.

*game companies are generally noted to investors as companies with a single product, released maybe not even annually, and with potentially massive returns. As such they join a lot of other tech companies in silly investment numbers world. If said investors are leaning on you to produce the big hits...

**10 million in 2010 (seeing titles such as Skate 3, Mass Effect 2, Bayonetta, Red Dead Redemption, Fallout: New Vegas...) is $11,657,647.58 according to the calculator from earlier. While I would not turn down the difference if I was offered it then at the same time it is not so much in the grand scheme of things. Also many devs would love a budget of 10 million, though it is not high compared to some.

I read a small study the other day where different publishers/platforms had their review scores and sales compared and there is a split between platforms, Nintendo having an interesting position in it all. https://towardsdatascience.com/predicting-hit-video-games-with-ml-1341bd9b86b0
Do I make some kind of bias factor to account for this, or note it when comparing?

Going further then while you could probably account for the PS2 owners that wanted a cheap DVD player (people forget how big a selling point it actually was), maybe even something for the PS3 ones wanting a blu ray (between format wars, streaming had not quite gone mainstream but was a thing among certain sets and this was the heyday of torrents which is functionally the same for a lot purposes here, and people generally being content with DVD it is not as notable as the PS2 DVD stuff but not something to be dismissed) but what do you do about the Wii being a Wii sports machine for a sizeable fraction of its userbase?


I could ponder it further but I want a discussion. The game sales compared to console sales, top 10 game sales volumes, maybe top 10 not counting Nintendo first party stuff as a secondary metric, and possibly some kind of manufacturer adjustment (if Nintendo is all ten year olds without money, and nowadays probably a fortnite habit, then it stands to reason the cool psbox crowd in their 20s with no kids and enough disposable income, or gaming a proper focus thereof, would be different) being where I head first if I were to go there.

Short version. Let us thrash out a way to compare console sales in a more meaningful way.


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## zomborg (Apr 25, 2019)

I'm afraid helping you figure out a better way to compare console sales is above my head but according to the second link you provided, that is very interesting that nintendo ranks highest in all 3 categories. Great, good and ok game sales. Just curious, is it a better marketing approach?


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## Ryccardo (Apr 25, 2019)

zomborg said:


> according to the second link you provided, that is very interesting that nintendo ranks highest in all 3 categories. Great, good and ok game sales. Just curious, is it a better marketing approach?


Probably "just" good brand reputation and the fact only Nintendo has a large number of exclusive 1st and 2nd party series (how many consoles were sold exclusively for use as, at least initially, mario/pokemon/wiisports machines?)
At least before the Switch, Nintendo certainly wasn't widely appreciated for their advertising efforts, at least on gaming forums

If anything that article brings to attention the stupidity of reducing [more or less indirectly bribed "professional"] "reviews" (which are supposed to be an inherently subjective opinion piece about a product or service) to a number on an arbitrary but rank-inflated scale!

Also, only approximately 200 NES games? It's clearly not counting region and version variants given the 2000s figure for the DS, but even then it sounds fishily low...


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## zomborg (Apr 25, 2019)

Ryccardo said:


> Probably "just" good brand reputation and the fact only Nintendo has a large number of exclusive 1st and 2nd party series (how many consoles were sold exclusively for use as, at least initially, mario/pokemon/wiisports machines?)
> At least before the Switch, Nintendo certainly wasn't widely appreciated for their advertising efforts, at least on gaming forums
> 
> If anything that article brings to attention the stupidity of reducing [more or less indirectly bribed "professional"] "reviews" (which are supposed to be an inherently subjective opinion piece about a product or service) to a number on an arbitrary but rank-inflated scale!
> ...


Ah hah! So Nintendo and other game companies pay people for favorable reviews?


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## Ryccardo (Apr 25, 2019)

zomborg said:


> Ah hah! So Nintendo and other game companies pay people for favorable reviews?


No idea about how often it happens nowadays (especially from the big three hardware companies), but third parties certainly had at times their share of "it's legal to deny business to anyone for any non-discriminatory reason so we'd really appreciate for our games to rank at least this high, if you like to keep receiving advance and/or free copies of our products"

(and, at least in the field of questionable products of usually Chinese origin, independent private reviewers aren't immune either, with Amazon buyers being offered refunds in exchange for removing a low score review)


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## FAST6191 (Apr 25, 2019)

zomborg said:


> I'm afraid helping you figure out a better way to compare console sales is above my head but according to the second link you provided, that is very interesting that nintendo ranks highest in all 3 categories. Great, good and ok game sales. Just curious, is it a better marketing approach?


You don't have to do some kind of regression analysis to fine tune a variable (as far as business things go that is probably outside my wheelhouse too) if you just want to ponder a factor that come make a direct comparison tricky.

As for Nintendo. I would probably look at three things.
1) Up to the 16 bit era they were riding high and probably the main player in most places (the megadrive/genesis might be said to have won in the UK but everywhere else... yeah).
2) Their handhelds were for a long time the main game in town. Sega more or less bowed out with the gamegear. Everything else was pretty niche until you get to the PSP, and then mobile phones that mere mortals could program for took off in earnest (apple was far from the first to give it a go and far from the first to make fully featured phones, though the US market was way behind the times there, but they landed on something that worked at least).
3) Today they are something of a "family" company. It is certainly something they cultivate and an impression of them I get back when wandering the world. 

Possible aside. I once saw a discussion about someone making games I think it was for the Barnes and Noble Nook (for others in the crowd a once very popular US book retailer, and their attempt at an ereader which failed rather badly). There was however a company making a fair bit making mediocre educational games for it, not because the games were of any quality but because people wanted to extract some value from it. Game droughts on Nintendo consoles, and first party CPR, are nothing too new at this point -- other than a possible blip for the gamecube it has been going on for the home consoles since the N64. For handhelds the DS took a while to spin up but was the last one to consistently be bringing things out -- I really do look down upon the 3ds library and consider it the point where Nintendo lost its grip on the market with lots of those that made the DS what it was leaving or splitting focus*.
If something, anything, to play is a thing then that might account for something. I would also be curious to see what the portendo switch thing looks like in data there. http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/games.php?console=NS would possibly say something here.

*I tended to note it when I was making https://gbatemp.net/threads/links-to-various-gbatemp-features-over-the-years.352851/ and seeing where those making the good stuff for the GBA and DS were then. Not doing on the 3ds the usual result. Similarly I usually phrase it as I don't actually play Nintendo handhelds for Nintendo games. Other than Starfy and Advance Wars (and if you want to look at the history of those in recent times -- the latter seems to have been ignored entirely since the DS, give or take Japan getting an entry they sort of missed, and the former has not come out of Japan in years at this point) I did quite well for myself not caring about Nintendo properties. Try that on the 3ds... yeah.


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## sarkwalvein (Apr 25, 2019)

I don't think the Switch could be considered a failure to be honest. And neither a success.
Unless you expected it to have so much success as consoles from the golden years of Nintendo, if so... well, you will be disappointed perhaps, and naive?

From what I see, it is selling well and making money.
IMHO it is more relevant than the N64 for sure (that people hold in some pedestal for reasons I don't understand... that went awry IMHO).

It is still more successful than the GameCube and Wii U, regarding market share and projections, it still could be considered a "success" (it still is in the game), but that is sugar-coating it... Even if the GameCube was more of a commercial failure IMHO it still had more going to it.

Nintendo is making money, but it is not making a future, or at least I feel it is like that. 
During some of the previous generation "failures" of Nintendo, they came up with some IP or some new game or something that they could exploit later, but I think Nintendo is out of ideas, for me the problem is software-related more than anything.

Nowadays Nintendo is not a leader in any field of gaming, not as a console maker, not as a software developer, and it does not look like it is even trying. It's like it's running on fumes, probably flooring the pedal to make one last impression but with nothing new on the tank.

IMHO, the whole video game console industry has left its golden time behind, it is kind of sad, and SONY still kind of swings it barely, but it is still kind of sad.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 25, 2019)

I usually phrase it as would a console allow me to experience the games of the day, or would said console provide some kind of good experience I can't reasonably get elsewhere. The Switch then seems to be the latest in a long line of Nintendo also rans.

On reviews then something be read into Breath of the Wild actually. For me (having a 360 and very much enjoying its efforts there at open world rpg thing) BOTW was a fairly pedestrian open world game, which considerably exceeded my initial expectations (early footage did not speak to good things). However that it enjoyed the position it did... even if only at first (long tail sales are a thing but not necessarily a big part of it) might say something.

As for golden age then I am not sure what happened -- I had a fantastic time on the PS360 but this last go around... it really has lost me and I am not sure why. Going back and playing on the PS2, gamecube, 360 and such I still have a great time so I don't think it is me. I would have to wonder if everything got a bit samey and safe.


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## kuwanger (Apr 27, 2019)

A few of my thoughts.

One, inflation doesn't work with computer hardware and software.  For hardware, it doesn't work because Moore's Law has meant ever increasing performance at lower cost per unit with more power efficiency.  In some spaces (x86 CPUs) the wall has been mostly hit, so we might finally start seeing inflation.  There's still ARM though to compete against, depending on precisely what the computational need is.

For software, there's actually no good reason that inflation hasn't happened.  Some of the difference has been offset with cheaper medium (cartridges to discs to digital).  At least for a while, especially during the AAA expansion, the AAA market offset inflated budgets.  Smaller studios never had that luxury, and they don't have have enough blockbusters to offset the mediocre sales to effective losses.  Of course, there's a bunch of discussion about AAA companies pushing various monetization strategies which effectively are a sort of inflation,  Meanwhile games on mobile are a whole other beast with a whole other pricing structure heavily supported by ads.  So, it's really hard to consider inflation there.

As for the link comparing critic scores vs game sales, I'd note that the list showing virtually no PC sales only highlights I think the disconnect that has happened between PCs and consoles.  I think this is a byproduct of shareware and demos decimating the PC gaming magazine market.  Meanwhile, the high cost of console games has meant there's been a steady stream of console magazines getting free samples that have managed to maintain their consolidation--long term downloadable console demos may kill console critics as an industry as well.

My overreaching point is, critics only review the stuff people will pay them enough attention to review.  Steam keys are given away regularly to try to achieve a buzz but there's a flood of games that make adequate hype limited to marketing budgets in the millions.  Hence larger studios sell on PC and all consoles, yet the reviews are almost all on the console where I imagine prices may remain higher longer.

Nintendo remains the oddity, but I think they're migrating to Android precisely because of what sarkwalvein said.  A lot of Nintendo's wild ideas are now the norm.  They keep trying to do multidevice stuff, but that eventually led to the Switch which I'd consider more a success than a failure.  I would acknowledge Nintendo long term needs to move towards another platform because clearly it can't or won't develop the scale of hardware that others (Sony and MS) will.  A move to Android might actually be the best thing, especially if they can capitalize on ad based revenue and smaller, more experimental games.

Anyways, to reach a sort of "inflation for game console sales" you have to establish that consoles will last or that games will remain a relatively stable thing relative to per person numbers an then tie your results to population.  Otherwise, everything else would be like trying to tie drink sales by looking at soda sales while ignoring that they're just very different things.


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## Stwert (Apr 28, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> I usually phrase it as would a console allow me to experience the games of the day, or would said console provide some kind of good experience I can't reasonably get elsewhere. The Switch then seems to be the latest in a long line of Nintendo also rans.
> 
> On reviews then something be read into Breath of the Wild actually. For me (having a 360 and very much enjoying its efforts there at open world rpg thing) BOTW was a fairly pedestrian open world game, which considerably exceeded my initial expectations (early footage did not speak to good things). However that it enjoyed the position it did... even if only at first (long tail sales are a thing but not necessarily a big part of it) might say something.
> 
> As for golden age then I am not sure what happened -- I had a fantastic time on the PS360 but this last go around... it really has lost me and I am not sure why. Going back and playing on the PS2, gamecube, 360 and such I still have a great time so I don't think it is me. I would have to wonder if everything got a bit samey and safe.



I kind of agree with your last point there. I often wonder if it’s because every console generation before provided quite a leap over its predecessors. But this generation, while I wouldn’t say I was disappointed with it, just didn’t seem like it provided anything majorly new.

There’s been some great games, of course and yes, the graphics are better. But that’s all really. My Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4, PS4 Pro, all make things look a bit nicer than they did in the previous generation. But beyond prettier pictures and in some cases a further draw distance, they’re just more of the same.

The Switch at least has allowed console quality games (albeit on more of an Xbox 360, PS3 level) in a handheld I can take anywhere. That’s probably my most favourite thing this generation.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 28, 2019)

Stwert said:


> I kind of agree with your last point there. I often wonder if it’s because every console generation before provided quite a leap over its predecessors. But this generation, while I wouldn’t say I was disappointed with it, just didn’t seem like it provided anything majorly new.
> 
> There’s been some great games, of course and yes, the graphics are better. But that’s all really. My Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4, PS4 Pro, all make things look a bit nicer than they did in the previous generation. But beyond prettier pictures and in some cases a further draw distance, they’re just more of the same.
> 
> The Switch at least has allowed console quality games (albeit on more of an Xbox 360, PS3 level) in a handheld I can take anywhere. That’s probably my most favourite thing this generation.



I am quite disappointed. For https://gbatemp.net/threads/the-games-you-will-keep-for-your-ps4-and-xbox-one.499105/ I asked what people would keep as a representation of games they cared to play in 10 years (or maybe just as an example of an early or notable evolution of a mechanic) as I have nothing for the PS4/xbone here (nintendo's efforts long since having ceased to be relevant). Then and now I have nothing, despite playing many of them.

Novelty somewhat joins innovation in buzzwords that some mistake as synonyms for good which makes me wary. I was more hoping for smaller devs to not need to pour endless resources into optimising engines when the overhead, similar to how anybody able to be taught to code could probably make the functional equivalent of a top tier 16 bit era game today on modern hardware, despite having no hope of being able to do it on the old hardware. All I got was a race from the top end to make microtransaction laden super shiny for obscene sums (that somehow they were forced into and it is my fault they are not making money*) that had their most impressive feat being actually defying the "the newest forgettable shiny happily replaces the old" thing that previously I looked at (I know I jilted Need for Speed Underground 2 in that thread but I played it as part of https://gbatemp.net/threads/so-i-got-my-gamecube-out-and-was-playing-it-lately.533900/ and while it has aged... interestingly I would say I would rather that than the newer offerings). I was hoping that all those nice small devs from far flung places outside big cities in Europe that previously did so well (all those German, Spanish, Eastern European and whatnot RPG devs that gave us stuff like Venetica, Witcher, Risen...) would be able to turn around and make something on the scale of Skyrim but not have to worry as much about the optimisation having to scale things back... I am not actually sure what happened to a lot of those. If the big boys wanted to turn around and make things even more epic or explore hardcore AI as a means to achieving that as was beginning to happen towards the end there ( https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/duels-planeswalkers-all-about-ai-2014-02-13 , card game I know but the mindset and logic exports well enough to most things. Failing that the sorts of options Spec Ops: The Line was going for) then that would have been fine too. 

*I already know they shy away from time tested engineering, even mainline code, style workflows and approaches, seemingly ignore the maths underpinning their field (so few seem to know game theory and instead iterate it until it works or chuck it out at the first chance), but here it seems they even forgot Hollywood style stuff and don't do the effective equivalents of backlots, models, choice camera angles and whatever else. Instead doing the computer game equivalent of being on location with life size objects.

As for "handheld I can take anywhere" then when discussing wireless power and offhand remark was made in one presentation where they realised more people used things within a few metres of a wireless socket and that applies to handhelds for me which reduces its value a lot for me. Most of the time it is at a computer or similar and lower powered handhelds never had trouble maintaining my interest. I don't object to having epic 3d quests on the move but for mental and finger stimulation I have seldom been lacking in options. Granted I have never been able to walk with headphones in (I fall over despite my balance otherwise being amazing) and much prefer to be aware of my surroundings anyway. Beyond that most things the Switch offers here are ports of things I had already done to death and that mainly leaves mods to bring me back, none of which I am expecting there while it is active and probably not after it is dead either.


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## Stwert (Apr 28, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> I am quite disappointed. For https://gbatemp.net/threads/the-games-you-will-keep-for-your-ps4-and-xbox-one.499105/ I asked what people would keep as a representation of games they cared to play in 10 years (or maybe just as an example of an early or notable evolution of a mechanic) as I have nothing for the PS4/xbone here (nintendo's efforts long since having ceased to be relevant). Then and now I have nothing, despite playing many of them.
> 
> Novelty somewhat joins innovation in buzzwords that some mistake as synonyms for good which makes me wary. I was more hoping for smaller devs to not need to pour endless resources into optimising engines when the overhead, similar to how anybody able to be taught to code could probably make the functional equivalent of a top tier 16 bit era game today on modern hardware, despite having no hope of being able to do it on the old hardware. All I got was a race from the top end to make microtransaction laden super shiny for obscene sums (that somehow they were forced into and it is my fault they are not making money*) that had their most impressive feat being actually defying the "the newest forgettable shiny happily replaces the old" thing that previously I looked at (I know I jilted Need for Speed Underground 2 in that thread but I played it as part of https://gbatemp.net/threads/so-i-got-my-gamecube-out-and-was-playing-it-lately.533900/ and while it has aged... interestingly I would say I would rather that than the newer offerings). I was hoping that all those nice small devs from far flung places outside big cities in Europe that previously did so well (all those German, Spanish, Eastern European and whatnot RPG devs that gave us stuff like Venetica, Witcher, Risen...) would be able to turn around and make something on the scale of Skyrim but not have to worry as much about the optimisation having to scale things back... I am not actually sure what happened to a lot of those. If the big boys wanted to turn around and make things even more epic or explore hardcore AI as a means to achieving that as was beginning to happen towards the end there ( https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/duels-planeswalkers-all-about-ai-2014-02-13 , card game I know but the mindset and logic exports well enough to most things. Failing that the sorts of options Spec Ops: The Line was going for) then that would have been fine too.
> 
> ...



For me, as far as the Switch is concerned at least, it’s not about taking it on short journeys. Taking it on a bus/train/to wait at doctors, or whatever people do with them. Is not something I ever have, or am ever likely to do.

I’m content chatting to people, or passing some time with a word game on my phone in those situations.

But when the wife drags me kicking and screaming away from civilisation to go to our caravan. Something I am most certainly not a fan of, but it was a gift from my in-laws. Don’t get me wrong, I love going places and being out in nature. I just don’t like caravans.

That’s when my Switch is a godsend. When you’re away for a week or two and there are inevitable stormy days when you’re trapped in a tin can. The Switch provides an escape from boredom.

My Vita, 3DS and every handheld prior to them served the same purpose. The Switch, for me, is just better at it.

It’s not for everyone, of course, we all like different things. But playing BOTW, Mario Odyssey, Mario Kart, Mortal Kombat 11, Smash and countless other games serves me well.

I’ve never been one to favour graphics over gameplay. I’m just as happy playing my Atari 2600 as I am my PS4 Pro, or for that matter digging out a board game (remember those ). But the Switch provides more than a mere graphical upgrade over its predecessors.

As far as gaming systems in general are concerned, while I have been less impressed with this generations leap over the previous. I don’t really care in the long run.

All I ask, from any of my 70 odd systems, are games which are fun to play. In that regard, every system has some. Which is why I have so many systems and such a large collection of games.

If they weren’t capable of providing me with something enjoyable to play, I simply wouldn’t keep them.

I’m perhaps different from some people, to me gameplay is king. Nothing else really matters. Which is why I can still get so much enjoyment from a 40 year old gaming system.

But we’re all different, some people wouldn’t even consider trying an Atari 2600, a Videopac G7000, a Vic20 or dozens of others, just because the games don’t look good. To each their own. Being different is what makes the world such an interesting place.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 28, 2019)

Most board games I play nowadays are out of the domain of computers to play well, or at least are going to need a bit of a spin on some serious machine learning to do well if we are moving away from supercomputer approaches. That is the main benefit of board games for me nowadays.

Regarding not doing things I don't want to do then I largely solved that problem by not doing things I don't want to do and having nobody in my life to attempt to compel me to do as such. For best of a bad situation though then that could change. As for caravans I did not mind the American "this thing is bigger and more kitted out than my first flat" approach to things, but if I have to suffer the UK version of the concept... yeah I would rather have a tent.

3ds wise. That was the end for me. I played and thoroughly enjoyed, and enjoy this day for that matter, my GBA and DS (and from what I can tell/have since gone back and filled in for would also apply to the GB and GBC too. Nintendo lost just about everything they had going for them for me when the 3ds rocked up -- I don't really care for Nintendo's games, especially not the crop since they let Rare crumble and then vanish, and that is all the 3ds really had to offer for me, along with a few uninspired retreads of things I had on the GBA and DS, the DS mostly taking what the GBA did and ramping it up that bit more.


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## Stwert (Apr 28, 2019)

I don’t think board games should have, or need have anything to do with technology. We can still enjoy a game of snakes and ladders, ludo, monopoly, or whatever.

As far as voiding your life of anyone or anything which doesn’t agree with your own preferences. Well, that’s a very individual choice.
I’ve always considered compromise to be an aspect of life one must live with if we want a varied and full life — especially where marriage is concerned. I’ll do things I’m less keen on because it makes my wife happy and she does the same for me.

The caravan aspect isn’t anything to do with the size or style of them, there are perhaps not surprisingly many American style vans over here. I just prefer my accommodations to be of the brick varieties. The caravan is perfectly nice, it’s spacious and offers everything one would find at home, never mind a hotel. It’s just one of those preference things.
Probably because, while my wife was brought up holidaying in them, I was not. I only ever holidayed in hotels or houses.

And as far as the handhelds and Nintendo’s games in general go. Well, that’s that preference thing I mentioned. While they may not appeal to you, which is fine, that’s your own personal opinion. They clearly do appeal to millions of other people, myself included. Just because one person likes, or dislikes anything, doesn’t mean the rest of the world has to fall in line behind it.

That’s what keeps life interesting.
It would be a horrible, boring world if we all shared the same opinion. I can’t think of anything more depressing than that image.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 28, 2019)

Some would ask if western snakes and ladders is a even a game at all but I will skip that one for now.

Technology wise it was more that computers can't do it and that provides an avenue of play unlikely to be explored by them. The magic card game article I linked earlier speaking to much there -- no human is likely to be able to straight program an AI to account for the mass of variables and strategies available there and thus such games remain outside the domain of computers, and can still do interesting things.
For me then the main value in the games mentioned is usually to get people used to the ideas underpinning the more complicated games (typically of the German school of board game design but not limited to it).

As for the rest. We would probably agree. Not entirely sure what relevance it has here but OK.


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## Stwert (Apr 28, 2019)

I fail to see how Snakes and Ladders cannot be a game. It exists, you can play it, therefore it is a game.
Sure you can trace its roots from the most recent American version, to the English one and then back to India where the game originated, but no matter what variation, or what name you use, one cannot argue that it does not exist, it has for centuries.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 28, 2019)

Stwert said:


> I fail to see how Snakes and Ladders cannot be a game. It exists, you can play it, therefore it is a game.
> Sure you can trace its roots from the most recent American version, to the English one and then back to India where the game originated, but no matter what variation, or what name you use, one cannot argue that it does not exist, it has for centuries.


It is more that there are no meaningful decisions made within it. If no decisions you make can influence, or indeed even theoretically could influence, the outcome of the proceedings then one is left to wonder if game is a fitting term.

On the other hand if 52 card pickup is a game...


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## Stwert (Apr 28, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> It is more that there are no meaningful decisions made within it. If no decisions you make can influence, or indeed even theoretically could influence, the outcome of the proceedings then one is left to wonder if game is a fitting term.
> 
> On the other hand if 52 card pickup is a game...




I hardly think 52 card pickup would be considered a game, more of an annoying prank used by arseholes.

A more appropriate parallel would probably be Snap.

A game however and where even Snakes and Ladders is concerned, game is in the literal sense the appropriate term. After all, a game, pertaining to the English language at least, is an activity a person, or persons engage in for fun or amusement. It need not have "meaningful decisions" within to influence any outcome.


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## FAST6191 (Apr 28, 2019)

Snap has recognition and physical reactions as a key component.

As for meaningful decisions then "engage in for fun or amusement" seems overly broad for me but if you want to roll with that then so be it.


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## Stwert (Apr 28, 2019)

FAST6191 said:


> Snap has recognition and physical reactions as a key component.
> 
> As for meaningful decisions then "engage in for fun or amusement" seems overly broad for me but if you want to roll with that then so be it.



I'll roll with it because it's the literal definition of the word. Or rather it is one of the definitions of the word as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary, which is a good enough source for most English language users.


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## Obveron (May 3, 2019)

Clearly what is deemed a "success" can mean very different things to a shareholder, or customer, or just reviewer.

I think the Xbox 360 Kinect is a good example of that divide.   According to sheer sales figures it was one of the best selling add-on peripheral of all time.  Microsoft saw it as a huge success it made tons of money so how could it not be a great success?   The thing was, it was bought on a whim by people who were jumping on the motion gaming trend ushered in by the Wii.  When people actually had it, they didn't like it.  They didn't buy many games for it.  3rd party devs took notice of this and didn't make many games for it.  Although reviewers were mostly positive about it at first, ultimately the games that were presented on the platform were panned.  Anyone who looks at it holistically, should see that it was actually a massive failure, but of course, simple dollar statistics and graphs seem to lead the graphics in boardroom discussions.  The stats misled executives into believing the casual audience that drove Wii and Kinect sales into huge numbers, were actually not a reliable and steady source of FUTURE income.  They didn't see that their core audience, whom consistently and steadily return to buy more core non-gimmick games were the more reliable customer.
So the corporate suits at Microsoft still considered the Kinect 1 as a massive success.  And then went on to make a massive mistake in bundling the Xbox One with Kinect 2 (was the only option at launch), forcing them to charge more for that bundle than the more powerful PS4.    They eventually bundled the XBOne without Kinect and stripped the integrated features completely out of the operating system, essentially quietly admitting the Kinect was a failure.


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## FAST6191 (May 3, 2019)

Other than the price thing I don't see the kinect 2 bundling as an inevitable failure, indeed it would be the only way I could consider the kinect 2 a potential success -- if your player base needs odd peripherals then it had better be something very small, practically free injection moulding and no electronics really, or bundled with it.


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