# In 20 years what gaming techologies we have today will seem unfairly dismissed/held back?



## Stealphie (May 10, 2020)

I don't get the hate for gyro/motion controls as a whole
If it's an option what's the problem? IMO most/all FPS'es should have gyro support


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## Seliph (May 10, 2020)

Stealphie said:


> I don't get the hate for gyro/motion controls as a whole
> If it's an option what's the problem? IMO most/all FPS'es should have gyro support


Yes! It is such a pain to play shooters on PS4 or Switch that don't offer gyro support even though the addition would make the game so much more accessible.


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## Stealphie (May 10, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Yes! It is such a pain to play shooters on PS4 or Switch that don't offer gyro support even though the addition would make the game so much more accessible.


Switch generally has more gyro support than the PS4/Xbox One.
I don't get why most shooters on these 2 don't have gyro support.


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## Seliph (May 10, 2020)

Stealphie said:


> Switch generally has more gyro support than the PS4/Xbox One.
> I don't get why most shooters on these 2 don't have gyro support.


I'm pretty sure the Xbox One controller doesn't even have gyro support, but the PS4 controller definitely does but it goes unused in like 98% of PS4 games. Switch is definitely MUCH better, but I've still played games on it that just bafflingly lack gyro support, or use the gyro support incorrectly (Fortnite and La Noire come to mind).


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## pedro702 (May 10, 2020)

Stealphie said:


> I don't get the hate for gyro/motion controls as a whole
> If it's an option what's the problem? IMO most/all FPS'es should have gyro support


problem is most people were forced to use those in wii games, there was no option, and many games were so bad with it becuase they didnt register half of the gestures.


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## FAST6191 (May 10, 2020)

Stealphie said:


> I don't get the hate for gyro/motion controls as a whole
> If it's an option what's the problem? IMO most/all FPS'es should have gyro support


Not really what I was heading for but OK.

Most of the time the motion controls were inaccurate or slow. Moving my fingers on a keyboard or controller* allows far more options and far more speed than all but the craziest university or tech company lab setups (you can do very good finger tracking, even have things to resistance but it costs).
To that end it is either a pointless extra, or something devs put a lot of resources into and satisfy few when they could have put the time into making the base game better. See why every game does not need a multiplayer mode for a similar idea.
Every choice has a cost.

If this is a console wide thing where such things are mandated to be used, or you can't consider everybody to have more conventional controls, then it gets even worse.

*it has been noted many controlled based FPS titles only work because of serious autoaim and other assists, and even then even moderate PC players will probably beat console pros.


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## SANIC (May 10, 2020)

definitely motion/gyro. it’s misused in today’s world, and shooters definitely benefit from it.


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## Deleted User (May 10, 2020)

vr... maybe


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## wonkeytonk (May 10, 2020)

I think the 3D feature in 3DS has always deserved more use and praise, even if it only works for smaller screens.


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## RedoLane (May 10, 2020)

I'd say that ironically, the double screen of the Wii U, with the monitor being the main screen, and the gamepad being the bottom screen, is a concept that could be improved if not for the focus on single-screen gaming that most devices in the gaming industry have been dedicated for.
Ultrawide and multi-monitors don't count, because it's a single game screen spread widely.

I guess it would count if you use an emulator and split DS screens to 2 different monitors(if it's even possible), but that's not my point.

My point is, as a concept, having a game menu closer to your palms while the game's action is like, 7 meters away from your seat, is what sold the Wii U for me. One good example is Paper Mario Color Splash, as mediocre as it is. But because of it's lack of productivity, the fun I had with this gimmick didn't last for long.
Alas, it has issues, and lacks a great library nowadays, but I wish more companies took that formula and did something more productive with it.

And I believe that will remain dismissed for the next 20 years. Single-screen gaming is iconic. We'd rather focus our eyes on one target, rather than wiggle our pupils up and down, or left and right. It's like trying to work on a document on your computer, while averting your eyes to a TV show 3 times in every minute. It's hard!


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## gudenau (May 10, 2020)

The Wii U gamepad for sure. That thing was amazing and had a lot of potential.

Imagine if the Switch supported that with 4 or more gamepads. You could do a HD version of both 4 swords titles in one game!


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## SkyStruck (May 10, 2020)

Projected augmented reality. 

It still baffles me how we're not using environment scanners and RGB laser projectors to realize this.


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## Seliph (May 10, 2020)

SkyStruck said:


> Projected augmented reality.
> 
> It still baffles me how we're not using environment scanners and RGB laser projectors to realize this.


Do you mean something like this? Seems fascinating.


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## Taleweaver (May 10, 2020)

I just want to +1 @RedoLane 's post : the wiiu controller is the best controller on the planet, but it was abandoned even by Nintendo somewhat mid generation (meaning : just about any game of the latter years just used it as second screen).
I won't deny that this requires a ton more programming, but I really thought that games like batman :Arkham city and zombiiu were the future. But instead of building on less screen clutter and innovative ways to use a second screen, it was just a prequel for a handheld hybrid.


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## tatumanu (May 10, 2020)

gudenau said:


> The Wii U gamepad for sure. That thing was amazing and had a lot of potential.
> 
> Imagine if the Switch supported that with 4 or more gamepads. You could do a HD version of both 4 swords titles in one game!



I agree, imagine if the Wii U had HDMI in ports you could use to connect other consoles to it and beam wirelessly your PS4 or Xbox to the gamepad making it possible to play all your games wirelessly with no lag . I bet the Wii U would be a bit more popular even if for just that. Sort of like this :


I have to mention:
I absolutely LOVE stereoscopic 3D and I bet the effect would be way more convincing in HD with better head tracking. I really wish Nintendo would make a Switch 3D.


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## Silent_Gunner (May 10, 2020)

Seliph said:


> I'm pretty sure the Xbox One controller doesn't even have gyro support, but the PS4 controller definitely does but it goes unused in like 98% of PS4 games. Switch is definitely MUCH better, but I've still played games on it that just bafflingly lack gyro support, or use the gyro support incorrectly (Fortnite and La Noire come to mind).



Steam Controller says hello.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



pedro702 said:


> problem is most people were forced to use those in wii games, there was no option, and many games were so bad with it becuase they didnt register half of the gestures.



Again, Steam Controller is Chad over the Virgin Wiimote with its IR bar with a cable that's longer than it has any right to be.


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## Naster (May 10, 2020)

Prerendered backgrounds in games was unfairly forgotten. They used to create graphics beyond possibilities even on PS1 and was pretty cheap to make. Why abandon something that works and cheap at the same time?


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## Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee (May 10, 2020)

I still want stereoscopic 3D to become mainstream.

I dislike so called "virtual reality".


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## FAST6191 (May 10, 2020)

Naster said:


> Prerendered backgrounds in games was unfairly forgotten. They used to create graphics beyond possibilities even on PS1 and was pretty cheap to make. Why abandon something that works and cheap at the same time?


That is a bold one. Didn't expect a visit from the Resident Evil and Myst squad.
Probably because it is harder to animate things in the background, and people like to move in real time. Mind you with VR motion sickness reduction we have seen a few returns to the likes of Myst with stationary point to stationary point type of movement. Likewise some of the dungeon crawlers also go there as a quick way to have nice graphics.

Also video because it is great fun


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## Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee (May 10, 2020)

Naster said:


> Prerendered backgrounds in games was unfairly forgotten. They used to create graphics beyond possibilities even on PS1 and was pretty cheap to make. Why abandon something that works and cheap at the same time?


It has very limited possible uses.

Having said that, an older concept of Resident Evil 4 with pre-rendered backgrounds is something that does look like something:


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## John60 (May 10, 2020)

Wii u game pad most def was a missed opportunity - bought 2 systems at release because of promised games or apps supporting 2 at once  -never happened, still really think it was a missed option to take gaming into another level with a main stream center video output on t TV or monitor and local controlled screens for users, but the U is still fantastic (and I own 3 switches as well)


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## Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee (May 10, 2020)

John60 said:


> Wii u game pad most def was a missed opportunity - bought 2 systems at release because of promised games or apps supporting 2 at once  -never happened, still really think it was a missed option to take gaming into another level with a main stream center video output on t TV or monitor and local controlled screens for users, but the U is still fantastic (and I own 3 switches as well)


I have never come across anyone who loves the Wii U as much as you do.


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## John60 (May 10, 2020)

Yeah, still a great console - could have been so much more - but we move on


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## Kioku_Dreams (May 10, 2020)

Couch coop/split screen. I mean the technology we have today is far more advanced and it's not like people don't want to play games with their irl friends. They just can't.


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## Frankbel (May 10, 2020)

Dual screen is something I will not miss.


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## TR_mahmutpek (May 10, 2020)

Loot boxes.


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## Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee (May 10, 2020)

TR_mahmutpek said:


> Loot boxes.


You like them?


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## sarkwalvein (May 10, 2020)

As some people said before, gyro assisted aiming. It should be standard in almost any console today, it could have been standard for the last 6 years or so. Precise aiming with just analogs is a PITA, you all know how much better it's to do those final quick adjustments with gyro.


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## Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee (May 10, 2020)

sarkwalvein said:


> As some people said before, gyro assisted aiming. It should be standard in almost any console today, it could have been standard for the last 6 years or so. Precise aiming with just analogs is a PITA, you all know how much better it's to do those final quick adjustments with gyro.


I have played a lot of Call of Duty: World at War on Wii. It was fun, but I wouldn't want to play that way all the time.


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## boomerang42 (May 10, 2020)

Naster said:


> Prerendered backgrounds in games was unfairly forgotten. They used to create graphics beyond possibilities even on PS1 and was pretty cheap to make. Why abandon something that works and cheap at the same time?



It worked even better on later consoles. Prendered is what made Resident Evil remake and Baten Kaitos some of the best looking games on Gamecube.

But the huge drawback to prerendered is fixed camera angles. Most types of games don't work well with that, or at all.


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## campbell0505 (May 10, 2020)

I just think it'll be interesting to see where handheld consoles go in the next decade or two. Considering the Switch is more powerful than the 360/PS3, I wonder how powerful the next handhelds will be, possibly as powerful as the Xbox One/PS4? I think that's too much to ask for, but I can hope for that in the future.

I reckon Nintendo already has the ability to make the switch slightly more powerful, but not on xbox one/ps4 levels.


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## raxadian (May 10, 2020)

pedro702 said:


> problem is most people were forced to use those in wii games, there was no option, and many games were so bad with it becuase they didnt register half of the gestures.



Thankfully a lot of them had alternatives.  

Is amazing how many Wii games can use the Gamecube controller and they don't even tell you in the manual.


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## sarkwalvein (May 10, 2020)

Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee said:


> I have played a lot of Call of Duty: World at War on Wii. It was fun, but I wouldn't want to play that way all the time.


That's not gyro assisted aiming though. 
Gyro assisted aiming is  e.g. Zelda BOTW, Splatoon, etc.


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## Xzi (May 10, 2020)

A lot of people are saying gyro/motion controls are being dismissed and underutilized, but we already have the next evolution of those in the VR space where they're a more natural fit.  VR controllers will continue to evolve even further in the next 20 years, probably ending up back at something like the Power Glove (except wireless with flawless tracking accuracy and in-headset representation).

I can't think of much current gaming tech which gets underappreciated, but I do wish that Dreamcast's concept of a handheld gaming memory card had panned out a bit further.  I suppose you could do something similar in the modern day by having a cell phone dock port on the back of a controller, storing save data on the phone and giving you access to tie-in minigames which in turn give you in-game rewards.  Not to mention enabling notifications and text messages on your console/PC.  Get on it, 8bitdo.


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## AaronUzumaki (May 11, 2020)

Xzi said:


> A lot of people are saying gyro/motion controls are being dismissed and underutilized, but we already have the next evolution of those in the VR space where they're a more natural fit.  VR controllers will continue to evolve even further in the next 20 years, probably ending up back at something like the Power Glove (except wireless with flawless tracking accuracy and in-headset representation).
> 
> I can't think of much current gaming tech which gets underappreciated, but I do wish that Dreamcast's concept of a handheld gaming memory card had panned out a bit further.  I suppose you could do something similar in the modern day by having a cell phone dock port on the back of a controller, storing save data on the phone and giving you access to tie-in minigames which in turn give you in-game rewards.  Not to mention enabling notifications and text messages on your console/PC.  Get on it, 8bitdo.


Well, VR is still in its infancy and is an expensive, hobbyist activity. I think people are arguing that gyro controls should be made standard and mandatory for all games in the mass markets. And I agree, aiming with an analog is miserable and while a mouse works great, gyro is just slightly better, in my opinion. For aiming, I think the best options are Gyro>touchscreen>mouse>wiimote>analog>dpad/equivalent

EDIT: Also, as far as VR is concerned, I'm excited to see Oculus Quest doing so well. Hopefully its ease of use and mass marketing will propel VR into the mainstream, so we can watch the technology evolve exponentially more than we already have.


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## MohammedQ8 (May 11, 2020)

I wish VR headsets don’t pull my hair and cause more hair loss hehe. 

every time I finish vr session I see hairs welcoming me to the real world hehe so I dont use them very often.

true story.


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## Tom Bombadildo (May 11, 2020)

Agree with Xzi, motion controls aren't being dismissed or held back, they're evolving thanks to the ever growing (albeit slowly) VR market. 20 years in the future I find it more likely everyone will be using motion controls to some extent (whether it's through advanced hand tracking or if we're still using controllers for some reason) than any other control method. 

As to the OP, I can't really think of anything at this time since tech like this generally goes two ways: It's either shit and nobody will miss it, or it's good and it's still around in some form or fashion. 

I would probably agree with the dismissed concept of the Wii U gamepad and it's intended "second screen" behavior though, is was really disappointing that basically every dev, Nintendo included, abandoned the whole idea pretty much ASAP, and the few games that utilized it didn't really do a super great job in the first place.


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## Xzi (May 11, 2020)

AaronUzumaki said:


> Well, VR is still in its infancy and is an expensive, hobbyist activity.


That's fair enough.  I'd point to PSVR as an inexpensive counterexample, but the Move controllers are very primitive by VR standards and don't track well at all compared to Vive wands or Index controllers.



AaronUzumaki said:


> I think people are arguing that gyro controls should be made standard and mandatory for all games in the mass markets. And I agree, aiming with an analog is miserable and while a mouse works great, gyro is just slightly better, in my opinion. For aiming, I think the best options are Gyro>touchscreen>mouse>wiimote>analog>dpad/equivalent


IMO a good gaming mouse is far superior to everything else where first-person games are concerned.  To each their own, though.



AaronUzumaki said:


> EDIT: Also, as far as VR is concerned, I'm excited to see Oculus Quest doing so well. Hopefully its ease of use and mass marketing will propel VR into the mainstream, so we can watch the technology evolve exponentially more than we already have.


I can't complain about more entry-level options being available, I just don't like Facebook (who own Oculus).  



Tom Bombadildo said:


> I would probably agree with the dismissed concept of the Wii U gamepad and it's intended "second screen" behavior though, is was really disappointing that basically every dev, Nintendo included, abandoned the whole idea pretty much ASAP, and the few games that utilized it didn't really do a super great job in the first place.


Yet another feature you could add to a controller with a phone dock, maybe like half the screen poking out from behind.  Just make it the inventory or map screen for whatever game you're playing.


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## JavaScribe (May 11, 2020)

Augmented reality seems like it has unrecognized potential.
It's not being held back by hardware. Heck, Hololens 2 is already a thing. It's just not a consumer technology yet.


Silent_Gunner said:


> ...Wiimote with its IR bar with a cable that's longer than it has any right to be.


Fun fact, you can use a candle as a crappy replacement two candles as a decent replacement for the IR bar. The sensor isn't on the IR bar; it's on the wiimote.


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## Teletron1 (May 11, 2020)

Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee said:


> I still want stereoscopic 3D to become mainstream.
> 
> I dislike so called "virtual reality".



stereoscopic 3D Is what augmented reality is ( like seeing in ”minority report” key elements are taken from it) it also is the basis of what a hologram is , still not cost effective and it still causes disorganization in a percentage of people but when VR becomes more fluid I think stereoscopic 3D mixed in with it would give you that hologram effect within games


Also I’ll go with the Switch if the unit was built right the first time it would probably last 20 yrs where power efficiency is the only thing that would have a dramatic impact over the course of its life


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## Paulsar99 (May 11, 2020)

Xbox kinect would have been cool if done right.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee said:


> I have never come across anyone who loves the Wii U as much as you do.


not even me??


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## Zyvyn (May 11, 2020)

Seliph said:


> Yes! It is such a pain to play shooters on PS4 or Switch that don't offer gyro support even though the addition would make the game so much more accessible.


I mean gyro is basically for people who want close to a mouse style input device


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## Seliph (May 11, 2020)

Zyvyn said:


> I mean gyro is basically for people who want close to a mouse style input device


If people wanted a mouse style input device, I think they'd just use a mouse and keyboard, not gyro controls. Gyro control is more so for people who want the more natural control style of a control, and also the precision aiming necessary for shooting games and any game that requires precise camera movement in general. 

For example, if I'm playing BOTW, I don't want to play my game with a "mouse style input device", I want to play with a comfortable controller that lends me the ability to precisely aim my arrows without relying on a cumbersome right stick to dictate how I aim.


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## Zyvyn (May 11, 2020)

Seliph said:


> If people wanted a mouse style input device, I think they'd just use a mouse and keyboard, not gyro controls. Gyro control is more so for people who want the more natural control style of a control, and also the precision aiming necessary for shooting games and any game that requires precise camera movement in general.
> 
> For example, if I'm playing BOTW, I don't want to play my game with a "mouse style input device", I want to play with a comfortable controller that lends me the ability to precisely aim my arrows without relying on a cumbersome right stick to dictate how I aim.


I mean the reason I play on PC is because I want that natural control of a mouse.


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## Seliph (May 11, 2020)

Zyvyn said:


> I mean the reason I play on PC is because I want that natural control of a mouse.


You may have natural camera control from a mouse, but a keyboard is certainly not an ideal way to play most games (try playing Dark Souls with one). You use a mouse because you want the precision of a mouse and a keyboard also comes along with that I suppose, other people use controllers with gyro support because they want the versatility of a controller, and the precision aim gyro offers.

You may use a mouse because you believe it gives you better aim control, but that does not mean other people are inclined to use a mouse for that reason.


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## XDel (May 11, 2020)

What like the Amiga?


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## Draxikor (May 11, 2020)

For me many things like wired controllers, 2D sidescroll games on consoles not just in handhelds, a new Super Mario Bros side scroll game, like @Naster say prerendered backgrounds have a unique art style.


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## slaphappygamer (May 11, 2020)

The one where, say you have splaying, but want to play 2 players. You need a second switch and a second game. The game is big, I get that. The psp has a “game share” feature, you do need a second console, but ffs you don’t need to buy a cartridge for each player. In 20 years, we will again have this feature and think why we couldn’t have this. The generation then, will never know about the game-sharing and it will be revolutionary.


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## duwen (May 11, 2020)

Core gaming control fundamentals have remained consistant since the start of the industry; pad/stick + buttons (extending to mouse + keyboard for PC gaming a couple of decades later). IMO, this will always be true and anything else (VR, motion controls, touch screens, etc...) is at best a subset of gaming, and at worst, a fad.


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## Justeego (May 11, 2020)

Gyro aiming isn't a thing, still ps games use motion controls for stupid actions, I get why people hate them but this is not the way to use gyro.
Double screen is a gimmick because you don't focus on the important one, at last on 3DS it has use since the screen is small and near the big one.


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## gamesquest1 (May 11, 2020)

I would very much like to see the treadmill VR setups more widely available to try, I think they could be pretty cool to see in arcades, but IDK if it would ever be made in a super enjoyable experience I would imagine they would be cool, but would want to see how they actually feel before I would every buy such a device, but I know bumping into stuff in VR does kinda hinder the experience and would love a way to make this kinda setup much more home friendly I.e fold down an be stored in a small space


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## mightymuffy (May 11, 2020)

bigfatToni said:


> vr... maybe


This is the one, and you couldn't have added a better word than 'maybe' onto it! As it stands: 'fun' 'unwieldy' 'gimmicky' kind of spring to mind here (expense is another issue), and unless technology can progress far enough to the point where all you need is to put on basically a large pair of shades to play (whilst keeping the expense side of things in check) then I don't see it lasting that much longer.
And 'maybe' it doesn't deserve to last much longer either, not only due to the gimmicky side of most of the software but for the fact it doesn't encourage couch multiplayer in any form: get the vr shades sorted, but get the image on the TV as well - spectator sport! Maybe give the TV viewers a different viewpoint to encourage co-op. But again, the word 'gimmicky' rears its ugly head.

So yeah, personally I think 20 years from now we'll be looking back at vr with fond memories, talking about what it 'could have been'..
Maybe.


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## GBADWB (May 11, 2020)

my current stance right now, controller layout.

Stuck on this 4 back button 2 stick dpad + 4 button layout for quite some time (since gen 6 PS2, and every console afterwords).

Both Microsoft and Sony had ways of getting back pedals to expand button uses for games, but neither standardized it for Series/PS5, so were stuck with virtually the same layout for another 6+ years.

This includes companies trying to get into the game like Google with Stadias conservative layout.

It's of the few things I appreciate Steam for trying with their controller, because they took a risk with variable haptic feedback and trackpads. variable haptic feedback is now standardized, but sadly the trackpad stayed in the bin.


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## Paulsar99 (May 11, 2020)

GBADWB said:


> my current stance right now, controller layout.
> 
> Stuck on this 4 back button 2 stick dpad + 4 button layout for quite some time (since gen 6 PS2, and every console afterwords).
> 
> ...


Agree controllers need to evolve.We're already like 20 years of using the same default buttons and triggers for controllers.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

Unleanone999 said:


> Agree controllers need to evolve.We're already like 20 years of using the same default buttons and triggers for controllers.


if it aint broke don't fix it


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## Paulsar99 (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> if it aint broke don't fix it


Xbox elite controller says hi.


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## MockyLock (May 11, 2020)

Unleanone999 said:


> Agree controllers need to evolve.We're already like 20 years of using the same default buttons and triggers for controllers.



Well, you can't say Nintendo never tried to improve controller. Every home console since the NES had its own controller model :





And about some underrated technology :


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

Unleanone999 said:


> Xbox elite controller says hi.


Most of the stuff on that controller went relatively unused
the only thing about it that was worth it was the satellite style Dpad (which marks the first time in history where an xbox controller was actually good for 2d fighting games) but that's not going to help the lack of gyro and overall useless extra features.
overall i really can't think of any good ways to improve the current controller scheme we have- extra triggers would just hamper the experience considering that your hands rest on the back of the controller, so putting triggers back there would just equate to unessacary button presses.
Maybe using the sega genesis 6 button style layout over the boring abxy would help but that's all i can think of and that only really benefits fighting games.


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## Pokemon_Tea_Sea_Jee (May 11, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> Well, you can't say Nintendo never tried to improve controller. Every home console since the NES had its own controller model :


I respect that graphic.


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## Paulsar99 (May 11, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> Well, you can't say Nintendo never tried to improve controller. Every home console since the NES had its own controller model :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree nintendo did try to be unique with their controllers every gen but now they're embracing the standard playstation/xbox layout.


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## MockyLock (May 11, 2020)

I respect Nintendo innovation.
I don't say they never made mistakes, but they dared to try.

this picture tells everything :


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

Unleanone999 said:


> Agree nintendo did try to be unique with their controllers every gen but now they're embracing the standard playstation/xbox layout.


sega's probably the only one not to use the standard layout but that's because of the fact they didnt even live long enough in the console market to see the new layout


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## Paulsar99 (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> Most of the stuff on that controller went relatively unused
> the only thing about it that was worth it was the satellite style Dpad (which marks the first time in history where an xbox controller was actually good for 2d fighting games) but that's not going to help the lack of gyro and overall useless extra features.
> overall i really can't think of any good ways to improve the current controller scheme we have- extra triggers would just hamper the experience considering that your hands rest on the back of the controller, so putting triggers back there would just equate to unessacary button presses.
> Maybe using the sega genesis 6 button style layout over the boring abxy would help but that's all i can think of and that only really benefits fighting games.


Well current gen games arent really made for the elite controller and no games are exclusive to it but even ms knew that the standard controllers has a lot of room for improvements.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> I respect Nintendo innovation.
> I don't say they never made mistakes, but they dared to try.
> 
> this picture tells everything :


Nintendo innovated in the wrong way imo
it wasnt about trying to radically change the design- it was just about taking what worked and improving upon it.
nintendo controllers just radically fluctuated and it made them unnatural and odd, even if they're iconic
but all the other companies went too far in the other direction- not innovating at all and just retreading the same steps
with the exception of sony who found a perfect balance between adding new and improving old with the PS4 controller (and ps5 with haptic feedback and whatnot)


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (May 11, 2020)

The Wiimote pointer. Or sth similar. 
Just as gyro is in many controllers now, I could potentially see a pointer solution in future controllers - even if it is a two-handed one. There was actually a 3rd party controller for Wii/Wii/ which looks like a normal gamepad but has a pointer. It had technical issues, so I didn´t buy it, but I wonder what it feels like. Of course, I personally will always be a fan of Wiimote+Nunchuk.


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## MockyLock (May 11, 2020)

Unleanone999 said:


> Agree nintendo did try to be unique with their controllers every gen but now they're embracing the standard playstation/xbox layout.



Playstation/xbox layout ? well, that's them who followed some prevous layout :
D-Pad ? Game&Watch
ABXY button layout ? SNES
L/R buttons ? SNES
Select/start ? NES
Central button ? N64

the only layout a bit different is the joysticks layout coming from XBOX.

Even moving from left thumb and action from right thumb comes from Game&Watch. You should remember that before, you had consoles like Atari2600, where you moved using your right hand, and the action button was on the left.
Just switching the action of each hand for the G&W was a huge risk.


----------



## duwen (May 11, 2020)

Microsoft... making essentially the same average contoller more comfortable over the past 2 decades... and the d-pad's are always the worst thing - ESPECIALLY for fighting games!!!
Nintendo... innovation - if innovation means having a 25% success rate in what's actually a "good" controller.
Sega... created great controllers that did what they needed to, tried something "innovative" with the Dreamcast (which was doing what the Wii U tried a decade and a half later), then they died.
Sony... if it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> Microsoft... making essentially the same average contoller more comfortable over the past 2 decades... and the d-pad's are always the worst thing - ESPECIALLY for fighting games!!!
> Nintendo... innovation - if innovation means having a 25% success rate in what's actually a "good" controller.
> Sega... created great controllers that did what they needed to, tried something "innovative" with the Dreamcast (which was doing what the Wii U tried a decade and a half later), then they died.
> Sony... if it ain't broke don't fix it.


wait, you consider sega and sony the only good controller manufacturuers??


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## duwen (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> wait, you consider sega and sony the only good controller manufacturuers??


No. I like the 360 controller, but it's dreadful for anything requiring the d-pad. I like the SNES controller a lot, it's almost perfect. I also like the Gamecube controller a lot, although it's weird face button size/shape/placement mismatch is dreadful for certain games. And I quite like the Wii U gamepad despite how uncomfortable it is.

Sega nailed it for the 16bit and 32bit gens, and the DC controller was innovative for it's VMU integration but it was more uncomfortable than the original Xbox controller - both of which literally made my thumbs bleed.
All I can say against Sony's controllers is they're not particularly original.


----------



## pedro702 (May 11, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Thankfully a lot of them had alternatives.
> 
> Is amazing how many Wii games can use the Gamecube controller and they don't even tell you in the manual.


a lot afaik actual games not counting wiiwarte/vc titles only 50 or so games had gc/CC support  considering the wii had over 1500 games, that is basicaly 3% of wii games that had gc controller/CC support...


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## Jayro (May 11, 2020)

I feel like VR will never gain the quality software traction it deserves. The serious lack of polished well-made triple-A titles is killing itself. We have what... Resident Evil 7, Doom VFR, Half-Life Alyx, and uh... Beat Saber? Everything else I've seen just looks like a shallow cash-grab at VR. Like tech demos that never see completion. I'm saddened that VR still sucks after all these years, and the sky-high prices are also not helping. VR hardware shouldn't cost as much as a new gaming console. Bring VR costs down to about $75-$100 USD and then we're talkin.  But as of right now, the software needs to mature, and the hardware needs massive price cuts if it wants to gain more traction. And for the love of fuck, DITCH THE WIRES!!!


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## raxadian (May 11, 2020)

pedro702 said:


> a lot afaik actual games not counting wiiwarte/vc titles only 50 or so games had gc/CC support  considering the wii had over 1500 games, that is basicaly 3% of wii games that had gc controller/CC support...



Actually, is more than that if you count the ones that let you use the CG controller for multiplayer and or minigames.

The Wiimote was good for simple games but any fighting game that didn't have CG controller support was doomed.

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wii_games_with_traditional_control_schemes

Good thing I both have the classic controller and Gamecube controllers. 

I should try to play some of these games again with those two.


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## Paulsar99 (May 11, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> Playstation/xbox layout ? well, that's them who followed some prevous layout :
> D-Pad ? Game&Watch
> ABXY button layout ? SNES
> L/R buttons ? SNES
> ...


I was talking about the switch pro controller being really similar to the playstation/xbox controller layout and not really talking about which company started this or that.


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## raxadian (May 11, 2020)

Unleanone999 said:


> I was talking about the switch pro controller being really similar to the playstation/xbox controller layout and not really talking about which company started this or that.



The Pro really reminds me to a Xbox 360 controller in looks at the very least.  

Sadly not all games are 100% compatible.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (May 11, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Actually, is more than that if you count the ones that let you use the CG controller for multiplayer and or minigames.
> 
> The Wiimote was good for simple games but any fighting game that didn't have CG controller support was doomed.
> 
> ...



What are you calling simple games? The Wiimote+Nunchuk setup works for ALL genres except fighting games. And I would argue Smash could be played just as well with it, but people (including me) are just not used to it. But Smash is a special fighting game.


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## pedro702 (May 11, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Actually, is more than that if you count the ones that let you use the CG controller for multiplayer and or minigames.
> 
> The Wiimote was good for simple games but any fighting game that didn't have CG controller support was doomed.
> 
> ...


even with that list cc+gc is only 78 games out of 1543... calling that "a lot" doesnt qualify lol.


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## duwen (May 11, 2020)

UltraDolphinRevolution said:


> What are you calling simple games? The Wiimote+Nunchuk setup works for ALL genres except fighting games. And I would argue Smash could be played just as well with it, but people (including me) are just not used to it. But Smash is a special fighting game.


"Special"... yeah... Proper fighting games can't... although for that matter the Gamecube controller is shit for 'proper' fighting games too. I used to use a PS2 controller via an adaptor to play CvS2eo on GC. The official classic controller for the Wii was the better option on that system when it came to the likes of Tatsunoko vs Capcom.


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> "Special"... yeah... Proper fighting games can't... although for that matter the Gamecube controller is shit for 'proper' fighting games too. I used to use a PS2 controller via an adaptor to play CvS2eo on GC. The official classic controller for the Wii was the better option on that system when it came to the likes of Tatsunoko vs Capcom.


I already agreed. My point was: Do you call all other genres "simple"?


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> "Special"... yeah... Proper fighting games can't... although for that matter the Gamecube controller is shit for 'proper' fighting games too. I used to use a PS2 controller via an adaptor to play CvS2eo on GC. The official classic controller for the Wii was the better option on that system when it came to the likes of Tatsunoko vs Capcom.


TBH the gcn controller only being good for smash is why i think it's overrated.
If people only fondly remember the controller because of smash melee that controller was probably never that good in the first place
People solely review GCN controllers based on how good they are for smash- not based on how well it works with other games, or how good the overall build quality is- if it's good for smash it's a 10/10
if melee didnt exist, people wouldnt even bat an eye at the gcn controller


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## MockyLock (May 11, 2020)

That's quite wrong...
GCN controller is good in itself, even if the D-Pad is awful indeed.
And its build quality is very good. I even think it's the last controller Nintendo made with its historical strengh.
it started to decrease with the Wiimote, plastic getting thinner, etc... Except the Pro models (WiiU or Switch).


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## pedro702 (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> TBH the gcn controller only being good for smash is why i think it's overrated.
> If people only fondly remember the controller because of smash melee that controller was probably never that good in the first place
> People solely review GCN controllers based on how good they are for smash- not based on how well it works with other games, or how good the overall build quality is- if it's good for smash it's a 10/10
> if melee didnt exist, people wouldnt even bat an eye at the gcn controller


the gc controller is a great controller for any game i played everything from fps games like medal of honnor, cod, to 3d platformers, mario sunshine etc, tbh up to this day i never found a controller that fells so good like the gc controller the only downsides it had was the dpad was abit too small, lacked a shoulder button and maybe some people wanted analog cap for the c stick(never bothered me even on fps games tbh), but design wise its great, i dont think anyone ever said gc controller was bad, ergonomics are great, button placement too besides the tiny dpad.

peope associat *gc controller wiuth ssbm becuase ssbm was the highest selling game on the gamecube.*


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## duwen (May 11, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> That's quite wrong...
> GCN controller is good in itself, even if the D-Pad is awful indeed.
> And its build quality is very good. I even think it's the last controller Nintendo made with its historical strengh.
> it started to decrease with the Wiimote, plastic getting thinner, etc... Except the Pro models (WiiU or Switch).


Yeah, I fully agree. Crap d-pad (way too small to be really useful, certainly never as a primary directional input). But there are a lot of GC games where I couldn't imagine them being anywhere near as good on any other input device; Mario Kart DD, F-Zero GX... even Animal Crossing.
So, despite it being crap for real fighting games (which luckily the GC never had many of anyway) it's my second favourite Nintendo controller after the SNES/SFC controller.


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## pedro702 (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> No. I like the 360 controller, but it's dreadful for anything requiring the d-pad. I like the SNES controller a lot, it's almost perfect. I also like the Gamecube controller a lot, although it's weird face button size/shape/placement mismatch is dreadful for certain games. And I quite like the Wii U gamepad despite how uncomfortable it is.
> 
> Sega nailed it for the 16bit and 32bit gens, and the DC controller was innovative for it's VMU integration but it was more uncomfortable than the original Xbox controller - both of which literally made my thumbs bleed.
> All I can say against Sony's controllers is they're not particularly original.


i dont conside rthe saturn controller anything good, specialy for 3d games imo the only good sega controller was the genesis one and they just added 2 shoulder button to it and said screw it its now a saturn controller lol.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

pedro702 said:


> peope associat *gc controller wiuth ssbm becuase ssbm was the highest selling game on the gamecube.*


fun fact- since march 2020 ultimate has become the highest selling fighting game of all time
noice


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## duwen (May 11, 2020)

pedro702 said:


> i dont conside rthe saturn controller anything good, specialy for 3d games imo the only good sega controller was the genesis one and they just added 2 shoulder button to it and said screw it its now a saturn controller lol.


Who plays 3d games on the Saturn? It's for fighting games and shmups, and that controller is perfect for that


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> Who plays 3d games on the Saturn? It's for fighting games and shmups, and that controller is perfect for that


when you advertise your console as a 32 bit 3d machine it should make sense for there to be primarily 3d games on there
after all that's what n64 and ps1 did
Also if the saturn is only good for fighting games and shmups just get an x68000, has arcade perfect ports and lots of shmups
MAME already made the existence of the saturn completely useless
plus the fact that most of the worthwhile saturn games have been ported to the 360, like nights, radiant silvergun, guardian heroes, daytona usa, etc
combine those other 3 factors with the fact it's a bitch to emulate and now you see why no one cares/talks about the saturn


----------



## MockyLock (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> when you advertise your console as a 32 bit 3d machine it should make sense for there to be primarily 3d games on there
> after all that's what n64 and ps1 did
> Also if the saturn is only good for fighting games and shmups just get an x68000, has arcade perfect ports and lots of shmups
> MAME already made the existence of the saturn completely useless
> ...



The Saturn was developped with 2D games in mind.
They boosted the 3D side once they knew about Playstation 1 abilities.
32bits never meant 3D games when they started...

EDIT : and in my opinion, every 32bits should have stuck to 2D...


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## pedro702 (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> Who plays 3d games on the Saturn? It's for fighting games and shmups, and that controller is perfect for that


a controller needs to be good for all the games on said console and they market the satrun with 3d games not 2d  ones back then.

but nintendo so far is the only company that makes drastic changes to their default  controllers with every generations

nes dpad + buttons side by side
snes dpad +2shoulder buttons and now buttons are in cross formation
n64
well that abomination is so hard to describe it has me mesmorized, even as a kid i tough how does ps1 have such a clean controller and we have this? the only good thing was implementing the analog stick even tough it failled easily.

gc for me this is the best default controller nintendo ever made to this day

wii .. again an abomination, sure if your playing any simple game its okay but complex games needed more imputs so we got those forced shake wiimote sideways or up and down or shake it to do moves and we all know how most of that went, even the nunchuck couldnt save it, for me wiimot+nunchuck is the worst default controller ever made by nintendo.

wiiu it has a simple layoiut and a huge screen, the only downsides for me are, the screen shopuld have been atleast 720p, batery life needed to be double that and the analog stick on top were abit awkwards but manageble.

switch when attached to the console they are preety standard for an handheld console, when attached to the dongle to make a single controller they are abit off, the dimensions dont quite match up for me, and when separated i just cant use them well but since i play hanheld 99% of the time they are perfect for me.

so for me it goes like this
gc>snes>switch>wiiu>nes>n64>wii

remenber im talking aboput standard controllers not extra controllers.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> The Saturn was developped with 2D games in mind.
> They boosted the 3D side once they knew about Playstation 1 abilities.
> 32bits never meant 3D games when they started...
> 
> EDIT : and in my opinion, every 32bits should have stuck to 2D...


hence why i said 32 bit *3D* console
besides, making the console 2d focused is stupid though- 3d arcades were becoming a huge thing back in the early-mid 90s
virtua fighter, virtua racing, tekken and daytona usa come to mind- all 3d arcade games from the early 90s. also, 3 out of the 4 games i listed were made by Sega. pretty hypocritical if you ask me
Sega apparently wanted to make the saturn arcade accurate from what ive heard, but if that's the case they shouldve made it with 3d in mind to futureproof for later 3d games
Also, another home console machine that was made with 2d arcade games in mind already existed- it's called the neo geo


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## MockyLock (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> hence why i said 32 bit *3D* console
> besides, making the console 2d focused is stupid though- 3d arcades were becoming a huge thing back in the early-mid 90s
> virtua fighter, virtua racing, tekken and daytona usa come to mind- all 3d arcade games from the early 90s. also, 3 out of the 4 games i listed were made by Sega. pretty stupid if you ask me
> Sega apparently wanted to make the saturn arcade accurate from what ive heard, but if that's the case they shouldve made it with 3d in mind to futureproof for later 3d games
> Also, another home console machine that was made with 2d arcade games in mind already existed- it's called the neo geo



Totally agree with you this time 
I never said they were right, i said they did it this way. So they didn't think into 3D moving... (i won't argue about 2D/3D capabilities, pros/cons as we were mainly debating controllers).

On the opposite, when Nintendo started its N64 project, it started with 3D moving in mind.
Not just 3D games, but 3D navigating into the game.
So came the joystick.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> On the opposite, when Nintendo started its N64 project, it started with 3D moving in mind.
> Not just 3D games, but 3D navigating into the game.
> So came the joystick.


Ahh nintendo- another reason why i love them so dearly
always thinking ahead and expecting change
arcades were the norm? make games that couldnt work on arcades
single screen platformers were the norm? make sidescrollers
2d games were the norm? make 3d games in advance
I wouldnt be surprised if nintendo actually revolutionized VR today as well...


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## duwen (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> hence why i said 32 bit *3D* console
> besides, making the console 2d focused is stupid though- 3d arcades were becoming a huge thing back in the early-mid 90s
> virtua fighter, virtua racing, tekken and daytona usa come to mind- all 3d arcade games from the early 90s. also, 3 out of the 4 games i listed were made by Sega. pretty stupid if you ask me
> Sega apparently wanted to make the saturn arcade accurate from what ive heard, but if that's the case they shouldve made it with 3d in mind to futureproof for later 3d games
> Also, another home console machine that was made with 2d arcade games in mind already existed- it's called the neo geo


And of the games from that period, the ones that have aged the best are the 2d games... which is why the Saturn is generally held in higher esteem than the Playstation. The Neo-Geo was part of the previous gen, and continued to be relevant (if you had the money) until the following gen, and was never a 'competitor' to any of the other systems in it's generation let alone the following gen.
Just a shame that by the time of the Dreamcast, when Sega had created a much more 3d focussed controller, most of that systems best games were also fighting games and shmups, so you had to go out and get a third party pad or Sega's arcade stick.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> And of the games from that period, the ones that have aged the best are the 2d games... which is why the Saturn is generally held in higher esteem than the Playstation.


held in higher esteem my ass- Mario 64, tthe crash and spyro trilogies, and banjo kazooie are considered some of the best video games of all time, and have aged extremely well even today- guess what system those games weren't on
Playstation 1 and Nintendo 64 are considered some of the best video game consoles of all time- and while i don't really care that much for the latter, the former started the amazing playstation console series which still sells truckloads of consoles even to this day (ps2 is the best selling video game console of all time, the amount of units sold were even higher than the population of some countries... hell, the total amount of playstation consoles sold is higher than the population of the united states. let that sink in)
guess what- the main thing carrying the ps1 were the 3d games
Saturn on the other hand... is mostly just a cult classic remembered in small circles like sega 16 and just sega fanboys in general, no one else remembers it, no one else cared for it, and frankly i don't either


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## orangy57 (May 11, 2020)

Using trackballs on console-style controllers. The technology has always been there, and there are even some xbox and pc controllers with trackballs out there, though there are _very_ few. A trackball always seemed to me like the most logical decision for moving a camera in any game, especially first-person shooters, since it gives you extreme precision and speed at the same time since it's a ball that spins. The only big company to try to make it mainstream was Valve with their prototypes of the steam controller, until they switched to two touchpads for extra flexibility with control bindings and dropped the trackball.


----------



## Magnus87 (May 11, 2020)

gudenau said:


> The Wii U gamepad for sure. That thing was amazing and had a lot of potential.
> 
> Imagine if the Switch supported that with 4 or more gamepads. You could do a HD version of both 4 swords titles in one game!







Nintendo should make a Dock that supports video input wirelessly, it would be the opposite of WiiU Gamepad and console, we could play split screen on the TV without losing performance


----------



## duwen (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> held in higher esteem my ass- Mario 64, tthe crash and spyro trilogies, and banjo kazooie are considered some of the best video games of all time, and have aged extremely well even today- guess what system those games weren't on
> Playstation 1 and Nintendo 64 are considered some of the best video game consoles of all time- and while i don't really care that much for the latter, the former started the amazing playstation console series which still sells truckloads of consoles even to this day (ps2 is the best selling video game console of all time, the amount of units sold were even higher than the population of some countries... hell, the total amount of playstation consoles sold is higher than the population of the united states. let that sink in)
> guess what- the main thing carrying the ps1 were the 3d games
> Saturn on the other hand... is mostly just a cult classic remembered in small circles like sega 16 and just sega fanboys in general, no one else remembers it, no one else cared for it, and frankly i don't either


Spoken like a true child of the mid to late 90's!
I had all of those 90's systems when they were new; the N64 is the least likely one I'll ever go back to. It's massively overrated by the kids who had their first gaming experiences on it.
And for every "iconic N64 3d masterpiece" you can dredge up I can show you a 2d game of the period that is more broadly highly regarded, and not just by the children who only knew that console. I can count on my fingers the truly good N64 titles that are still good today. I'd need to write a several page list of the 2d titles that are still relevant and highly regarded today.

btw, just to correct you ...read what I wrote in what you quoted. "the Saturn is held in higher esteem than the *Playstation*". I wasn't even bringing the N64 into the fight. Regardless, it's still true. Ask around. The only people that will disagree will be fanboys of opposing camps.
I owned them all, and at the time I was team PS all the way... but by god do I wish I'd kept my Saturn rather than either the N64 or Playstation.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

duwen said:


> Spoken like a true child of the mid to late 90's!
> I had all of those 90's systems when they were new; the N64 is the least likely one I'll ever go back to. It's massively overrated by the kids who had their first gaming experiences on it.
> And for every "iconic N64 3d masterpiece" you can dredge up I can show you a 2d game of the period that is more broadly highly regarded, and not just by the children who only knew that console. I can count on my fingers the truly good N64 titles that are still good today. I'd need to write a several page list of the 2d titles that are still relevant and highly regarded today.
> 
> ...


I don't know what people you surround yourself with because everyone i've talked to has said that the playstation is better than the saturn by a landslide- it's not even funny


----------



## Goku1992A (May 11, 2020)

20 years from now I don't expect games on disks anymore. They may do a remove from ownership data transfer for digital games. I also expect piracy to be obeleite look at the PS4/Xbox One as examples of that. Idk if you guys ever watched Dot Hack Sign but they really need to focus on virtual reality gaming. I feel playing at home on your TV has reached its limits. Sounds sophisticated but I feel like everything is heading towards virtual reality (real VR)


----------



## Silent_Gunner (May 11, 2020)

Unleanone999 said:


> Xbox elite controller says hi.



Tokyo Stick Drift rudely snaps back!


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> Tokyo Stick Drift rudely snaps back!


wait, elite controllers drift?


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## duwen (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> I don't know what people you surround yourself with because everyone i've talked to has said that the playstation is better than the saturn by a landslide- it's not even funny





duwen said:


> The only people that will disagree will be fanboys of opposing camps.


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

please provide evidence on how "more people fondly remember the saturn than the playstation" because im not feeling ya


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## Silent_Gunner (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> wait, elite controllers drift?



Yep. Just type XBOne Elite Controller Stick drift into Google to see how prevalent it is on both models of the controllers that cost $100+!


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## 64bitmodels (May 11, 2020)

Silent_Gunner said:


> Yep. Just type XBOne Elite Controller Stick drift into Google to see how prevalent it is on both models of the controllers that cost $100+!


holy shit.
thats sadddd lmaoooo


----------



## duwen (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> please provide evidence on how "more people fondly remember the saturn than the playstation" because im not feeling ya


Look, I owned both back when they first launched. I loved the Saturn, but I sold it to my bro so I could buy the Playstation when that launched. And I loved that too. Literally hundreds of hours playing a ton of great games... but graphically they've all aged badly - well the 3d ones have at least, and the 2d ones were already severely nerfed in comparison to the equivalent offerings on Sega's machine. And that's the thing - 2d sprites are timeless, 3d polygons of that period are hideous... especially the Playstations texture-warping muddy mess and the N64's "blur the fuck out of everything" anti-aliasing. Objectively, what looks better to you now... Battle Arena Toshinden or Street Fighter Alpha? Both released on the Playstation in 1995. One is a laughable mess of low poly models poorly animated, the other wouldn't look out of place being released today. And the Saturn ran those games better; more animations, less loading times, etc.
Why do you think there are so many 2d games being made these days? It's because history has proven that 2d sprites stand the test of time and 3d stuff less so (far less so in the case of 3d on the systems of that period).
If you want evidence head to youtube - there's overwhelming opinions there from level headed gamers that aren't interested in just fanboying for the one system they grew up with, they're interested in the games and the best way to experience them, regardless of the platform they're on.


----------



## Zyvyn (May 11, 2020)

Seliph said:


> You may have natural camera control from a mouse, but a keyboard is certainly not an ideal way to play most games (try playing Dark Souls with one). You use a mouse because you want the precision of a mouse and a keyboard also comes along with that I suppose, other people use controllers with gyro support because they want the versatility of a controller, and the precision aim gyro offers.
> 
> You may use a mouse because you believe it gives you better aim control, but that does not mean other people are inclined to use a mouse for that reason.


Generally keyboard and mouse work best for games not originally designed with controllers as the main source of input


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## slaphappygamer (May 11, 2020)

The wiifit board thingy. Marty McFly would be proud, though.


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## raxadian (May 11, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> I don't know what people you surround yourself with because everyone i've talked to has said that the playstation is better than the saturn by a landslide- it's not even funny



Hardware wise, hell yes. Games wise? The Saturn might had a few good games but you need to know Japanese for most of them.

Heck there is a lot of Nostalgia going on for the Playstation what with games from it getting remakes and so on.


----------



## FAST6191 (May 12, 2020)

slaphappygamer said:


> The wiifit board thingy. Marty McFly would be proud, though.


Combine a wii fit board with one of those run any direction but stay in place things and we might have an agreement.

That said I do eagerly await the day when the realism discussion is instead about having to be actually able to run and shoot vs move a mouse quickly vs realistic weapon recreation in game (I assume 3d printers will go for that one).


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## cracker (May 12, 2020)

Definitely 3D. It was a little upsetting that the Switch doesn't have it. Also augmented reality. The games were few and far between but there were some titles that showed the potential off on 3DS and Vita.


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## Captain_N (May 12, 2020)

the ability to actually own a copy of a game will be 100% dismissed.....


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## Taleweaver (May 12, 2020)

...is it me, or are most of the last 3-4 pages completely ignoring the OP's original question? I mean...sure, we can bicker all day about what controller we liked best, but for the most part, we neither lack the technology nor is that technology a niche product (1).

Still...it inspired me into something I would consider a gaming technology that we certainly have today but is absolutely held back. Namely: universal controller drivers. I'm probably not the only PC gamer who does a  face whenever there's arguments for or against console controllers..._because we can just plug most of 'em into our PC's regardless_.

It might seem like a radical (even revolutionary) idea, but if you ask me the "big three" should really reach an agreement and share the drivers of all their controllers, allowing the others to implement them(2). Why? Because different people have different tastes in controllers. I can bicker about the greatness of the PS4 controller or the bless of the wiiu controller, but I won't convince anyone swearing by hori fighting sticks, xbox controllers, gamecube controllers or whatever else on the market. The hardware hasn't been a problem for over ten years, as everything's connected through bluetooth and/or USB nowadays, and roughly the same goes for the controllers (a few quirky or specialized buttons aside, there is a standard set that'll work).

I'd also argue that the mobile market is doing this as well: there's plenty of external controllers, and none are company-tied (fuck...some can even be played both on android and iOS). This of course isn't the reason they're eclipsing the "big three" in terms of revenue on the game market, but it really should get that group to reconsider what they want to achieve(3).





(1): the steam controller's joycon thingies would be an exception, but nobody's talking about that.
(2): or at the very least all but their most modern ones...I get that the exclusivity is an appeal
(3): it's not the only reason, but part of why I don't have a switch is that the controllers are too small for my big hands. And I don't feel like forking out even more money for a proper controller when I've got half a dozen perfectly working them right here


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## AlexMCS (May 12, 2020)

just chiming in to agree that GCN controller is terrible - most GCN games DO play better on DualShocks/Wii U Pro Controller and whatnot.
And that 32-bit consoles (PS1/Saturn) should have been 2D only.
We could have had (more of) the best looking 2D games of all time, instead of some of the worst looking 3D titles ever.

On topic, when talking about gaming technologies, Sony is going on the right direction with the audio focus now, since graphics have already reached a point where future installments won't look THAT much better than the PS1->PS2 and PS2->PS3 era shifts for a good while.

Gaming technologies are also not only hardware - controllers, VR (which sucks and will still suck for years/decades), haptic feedback and whatever. Certainly something on the software side should evolve too - mechanics, online gaming netcode, gaming design and so on.


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## Sumasuun (May 12, 2020)

I haven't looked into it in a while and it was definitely not used for gaming.
But I remember a few years ago seeing research into both visualizing dreams/mapping them to be something others could see, and also helmets that read brain activity to control things. Both were used for medical reasons but the first thing I thought of when I saw those was if it developed further how interesting it would be to apply to games.


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## eriol33 (May 12, 2020)

I am guessing, the digital-only console such as psp-go.


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## Tarmfot (May 12, 2020)

More beat saber things. I loved Die by the sword.
I just at least steam has support for all kind of controllers including wiimote, wiifit and all kind of weird stuff. I would like categories about games with wiimotion plus, etc...


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## 64bitmodels (May 12, 2020)

AlexMCS said:


> just chiming in to agree that GCN controller is terrible - most GCN games DO play better on DualShocks/Wii U Pro Controller and whatnot.
> And that 32-bit consoles (PS1/Saturn) should have been 2D only.
> We could have had (more of) the best looking 2D games of all time, instead of some of the worst looking 3D titles ever.
> 
> ...


ugly games don't mean bad games
besides, i can list many good looking 3d games from that gen at the top of my head


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (May 12, 2020)

I think many N64 games still look good (e.g. Wave Race, Smash Bros, DK64, TWINE) but sometimes 2D objects within 3D environments look out of place.

I kind of like fog and those shiny textrures (not sure what to call it... you know like Metal Mario).


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## FAST6191 (May 12, 2020)

eriol33 said:


> I am guessing, the digital-only console such as psp-go.


I am OK with that being held back, at least pending the companies playing nice and allowing resale, lending, disposal and the like through arbitrary means.


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## gamesquest1 (May 12, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> I am OK with that being held back, at least pending the companies playing nice and allowing resale, lending, disposal and the like through arbitrary means.


I don't think I will ever understand peoples obsession with forfeiting all rights to their own games they purchase, maybe if we were stuck with only 5ft cartridges and by dropping support you would allow the creation of portable consoles, but there is literally zero real reason to demand physical releases be stopped unless your a major company looking to wipe out the pre-owned market or some nut job green extremists who things any and all physical objects should be banned or made from mushrooms

look I personally dislike digital only games in most cases (unless we are talking about a small indie dev who couldn't afford the initial production investment), but my solution would be "offer both" not BAN DIGITAL AND ONLY MAKE PHYSICAL!!!


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## eriol33 (May 12, 2020)

gamesquest1 said:


> I don't think I will ever understand peoples obsession with forfeiting all rights to their own games they purchase, maybe if we were stuck with only 5ft cartridges and by dropping support you would allow the creation of portable consoles, but there is literally zero real reason to demand physical releases be stopped unless your a major company looking to wipe out the pre-owned market or some nut job green extremists who things any and all physical objects should be banned or made from mushrooms
> 
> look I personally dislike digital only games in most cases (unless we are talking about a small indie dev who couldn't afford the initial production investment), but my solution would be "offer both" not BAN DIGITAL AND ONLY MAKE PHYSICAL!!!


I personally think this way: if I bought a physical copy at a full price, I will sell that copy as soon as I finished the game so I only paid a portion of the full price. say I bought a game for $60, I may be lucky able to sell it for $40. I paid $20 to enjoy the game. Maybe at some point if I am interested playing that game again, I will buy it very cheap during the end of the gen as the value has diminished greatly (I rarely do this though).

so yeah, $20-30 is the amount that I will accept to pay a digital game in full price since I couldn't sell my digital rights. With the abundance of video games and the diminishing value of physical release 6-12 months after the release, anyone who held their physical game because of emotional attachment is losing the value of their money. 

My perspective is purely economic, as I am not as attached with physical game as I used to be. I rarely play video games that I completed twice.


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## gamesquest1 (May 12, 2020)

eriol33 said:


> I personally think this way: if I bought a physical copy at a full price, I will sell that copy as soon as I finished the game so I only paid a portion of the full price. say I bought a game for $60, I may be lucky able to sell it for $40. I paid $20 to enjoy the game. Maybe at some point if I am interested playing that game again, I will buy it very cheap during the end of the gen as the value has diminished greatly (I rarely do this though).
> 
> so yeah, $20-30 is the amount that I will accept to pay a digital game in full price since I couldn't sell my digital rights. With the abundance of video games and the diminishing value of physical release 6-12 months after the release, anyone who held their physical game because of emotional attachment is losing the value of their money.
> 
> My perspective is purely economic, as I am not as attached with physical game as I used to be. I rarely play video games that I completed twice.


yeah, but look at it this way, if physical was never an option the price would never drop to that $20 price point....or at least it would take a lot longer for developers to feel like they have any motivation to decrease the price because they have no used market to compete against, if GTA V is selling used for $20 and they are still expecting $60 digital, then you have the option to buy used and they will feel compelled to reduce the price to encourage new purchases rather than more people being able to enjoy the game from that one initial sale, this is what I will never understand about peoples insistence of scrapping physical because they prefer digital, I feel like a lot of people say so out of spite like "yeah well It wouldn't effect me so I will lol when its digital only" except market forces will dictate that if there is no other route for people to buy the game the publishers will keep those prices as high as possible for as long as possible, so you could forget seeing good titles appearing on super massive discounts as often

for me to accept digital as a replacement to physical, consumers would need to be guaranteed the same rights as they get with physical i.e, the ability to give the game away or sell the game as they see fit, no "only transferable 2 times" or any such BS, just plain old same deal as with physical, but without the physical media....or prices to be significantly reduced to account for the lack of resaleability


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## UltraDolphinRevolution (May 13, 2020)

gamesquest1 said:


> for me to accept digital as a replacement to physical, consumers would need to be guaranteed the same rights as they get with physical i.e, the ability to give the game away or sell the game as they see fit, no "only transferable 2 times" or any such BS, just plain old same deal as with physical, but without the physical media....or prices to be significantly reduced to account for the lack of resaleability


When you buy a phsyical game, you do not have copyright of the software. You can just sell its physical form which happens to display the software. How would you give your rights away since you do not have any to begin with? I get your point and I also think digital games need to be cheaper, but it just makes little sense to me.


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## MockyLock (May 13, 2020)

there last days, i am playing Donkey Kong Country, real game on real hardware.
A game that i have since it was released. I considered it is fully mine because i bought it, and can use it when i want.
How will we play the actual games in 20 years,  when they need DRM and online check and any fucking user control that will disappear in a few years ?

i want to buy games like i buy a car.
Actually, you don't buy but rent games, for the time they will let you play.


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## FAST6191 (May 13, 2020)

MockyLock said:


> i want to buy games like i buy a car.
> Actually, you don't buy but rent games, for the time they will let you play.



You might need to, pun intended, update your analogies there

Granted that is probably closer to some of the software locked hardware (oscilloscopes are usually the main case study there) than straight software but close enough that my eye is on them.

It is also far from the worst Tesla story ("we don't want that on the market just yet, have a killswich" being one of the more fun ones)


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## MockyLock (May 13, 2020)

FAST6191 said:


> You might need to, pun intended, update your analogies there
> 
> Granted that is probably closer to some of the software locked hardware (oscilloscopes are usually the main case study there) than straight software but close enough that my eye is on them.
> 
> It is also far from the worst Tesla story ("we don't want that on the market just yet, have a killswich" being one of the more fun ones)




Tesla aren't car like i wanted for my exemple.
Tesla aren't car.
Tesla are driving Softwares
Softwares are digitals
Digitals have DRM and user check
F*ck digital


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## AlexMCS (May 13, 2020)

64bitmodels said:


> ugly games don't mean bad games
> besides, *i can list many good looking 3d games from that gen* at the top of my head



Well, I can't.
The best 3D at the time was some of the N64 3D, since it stuck to a cartoony style, instead of tryharding for realism.
PS1 3D was terrible overall (especially FF7, what atrocious graphics. Thank God we have a remake), but barely passable (still fugly) in a few games.
I'd like to know what you'd consider good looking.

As for the ongoing physical x digital debacle: Piracy makes digital releases viable.
If they ever take out the servers, I'll just (rightfully) pirate the game I already bought, with no weight on my conscience.
I'll never buy a digital game without a cracked/pirated alternative available.


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## raxadian (May 13, 2020)

AlexMCS said:


> Well, I can't.
> The best 3D at the time was some of the N64 3D, since it stuck to a cartoony style, instead of tryharding for realism.
> PS1 3D was terrible overall (especially FF7, what atrocious graphics. Thank God we have a remake), but barely passable (still fugly) in a few games.
> I'd like to know what you'd consider good looking.
> ...



Spyro and Crash Bandicot looked really good for the time they were made.

Legend of mana still looks amazing.

Honestly the Playstation had a whole lot of good looking games.


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## AlexMCS (May 13, 2020)

raxadian said:


> Spyro and Crash Bandicot looked really good for the time they were made.
> 
> Legend of mana still looks amazing.
> 
> Honestly the Playstation had a whole lot of good looking games.



Crash is passable, LoM is 2D Sprites. I was talking specifically about 3D.

And as I also said, the 3D for that time worked when they weren't trying to go for a realistic style (FF7,8 are an example of bad and ok-ish 3D graphics), but worked well for cartoony graphics, like the N64.


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## 64bitmodels (May 14, 2020)

AlexMCS said:


> Well, I can't.
> The best 3D at the time was some of the N64 3D, since it stuck to a cartoony style, instead of tryharding for realism.
> PS1 3D was terrible overall (especially FF7, what atrocious graphics. Thank God we have a remake), but barely passable (still fugly) in a few games.
> I'd like to know what you'd consider good looking.
> ...


Crash trilogy (also crash team racing on ps1), Spyro trilogy, Banjo Kazooie, Conker's bad fur day, Klonoa, daytona usa (at least the arcade version) and scud race (looked like an early 360 game back in 1995...) also diddy kong racing, doom, and quake
it's not about the amount of polygons or colors on screen... as long as it's pleasing to the eyes its fine to me- and all of these games are pleasing to my eyes lol


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## YugamiSekai (Jul 8, 2020)

Seliph said:


> I'm pretty sure the Xbox One controller doesn't even have gyro support, but the PS4 controller definitely does but it goes unused in like 98% of PS4 games. Switch is definitely MUCH better, but I've still played games on it that just bafflingly lack gyro support, or use the gyro support incorrectly (Fortnite and La Noire come to mind).


What's wrong with the motion controls in Fortnite? They seem pretty usable to me


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## ack (Jul 9, 2020)

Probably some of those obscure methods of anti piracy and making a game rentable, like the gamecube having special tiny disks, and that one company that made dvds that would degrade after a certain amount of time of being exposed to the air.


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## Jayro (Jul 9, 2020)

The fact that VR is still not 100% wireless, still bulky AF, and too expensive.


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## ital (Jul 29, 2020)

The Wiimote/Nunchuk. 

Should have became the standard, not for waggle but sheer comfort.


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