# Being transgender is no longer a mental illness according to WHO



## Viri (Jun 19, 2018)

Well, thoughts? This should make for a fun thread!

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/06/...t-a-mental-illness-world-health-organisation/


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## The Catboy (Jun 19, 2018)

I am glad they finally removed it as a mental illness and hopefully some more progress is made from here.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jun 20, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I am glad they finally removed it as a mental illness and hopefully some more progress is made from here.


Honestly I think that's all there really is to say on the matter, yeah


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## nonamejohn (Jun 28, 2018)

I saw this coming when it was first addressed. It is positive reinforcement for those who chose this lifestyle. There is still a long way to go however...


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## JellyPerson (Jun 28, 2018)

Yet the WHO have made video game addiction a mental health disorder. With every step forward there's a step backwards.


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## Quantumcat (Jun 28, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> Yet the WHO have made video game addiction a mental health disorder. With every step forward there's a step backwards.


Why is it less of a mental illness than any other addiction?


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## The Catboy (Jun 28, 2018)

JellyPerson said:


> Yet the WHO have made video game addiction a mental health disorder. With every step forward there's a step backwards.


Addiction is a mental disorder, regardless if drugs, alcohol, gambling, or video games. If someone is suffering from an addiction, then they are suffering from a mental disorder.


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## CeeDee (Jun 28, 2018)

This is a good thing, no ifs or buts about it.


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## snails1221 (Jun 28, 2018)

Living is a metal illness


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## CeeDee (Jun 28, 2018)

snails1221 said:


> Living is a metal illness


>pepe avatar
Maybe for you :^)


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## Kioku_Dreams (Jun 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Addiction is a mental disorder, regardless if drugs, alcohol, gambling, or video games. If someone is suffering from an addiction, then they are suffering from a mental disorder.



Yet, they've taken how to long to classify gaming "addiction" as a real thing? Hm...  You take one broken pillar, and replace it with another, you're a part of the problem...


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## The Catboy (Jun 28, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Yet, they've taken how to long to classify gaming "addiction" as a real thing? Hm...  You take one broken pillar, and replace it with another, you're a part of the problem...


The issue was proving that it's a real thing first and what separates it from just a standard hardcore gamers. There's a lot of factors that need to be taken into consideration when dealing with addiction. Coupled with the fact that these kinds of studies are long-term studies that need these years to provide the most accurate results. They can't just look at a few cases and say, "Yup! That's an addiction that needs to be taken seriously." They need to actually study the effects, treatments, and see if these conditions are widespread.
That being said, addiction is another topic and really should warrant a different thread. It's not like the replacement for transgender was replaced with video game addiction.


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## DeslotlCL (Jun 28, 2018)

Memoir said:


> Yet, they've taken how to long to classify gaming "addiction" as a real thing? Hm...  You take one broken pillar, and replace it with another, you're a part of the problem...


She is not. Every single addiction is clasified as a mental disorder, even excesive exercise is an addiction. You can't just compare addiction with transgender. Two completely different things.


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## ChaoticCinnabon (Jun 30, 2018)

Thank goodness, but now the alt right has more to bitch about, wait that's a good thing.

I like watching them act like morons


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## seren3 (Jul 19, 2018)

woot!


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## alexg1989 (Jul 27, 2018)

Maybe so, but according to reality, it still is and will forever remain.


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## Cubuss (Jul 27, 2018)

Pretty sure its still a mental illness,


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## Song of storms (Jul 27, 2018)

So...

If it's no longer a mental illness, why is the medical treatment still paid by our taxes?


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## SG854 (Jul 27, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Addiction is a mental disorder, regardless if drugs, alcohol, gambling, or video games. If someone is suffering from an addiction, then they are suffering from a mental disorder.



I was looking at the definition of Gender Dysphoria and it say's not all Transgenders feel Gender Dysphoria. Which means they feel their brain doesn't match their body and they're okay with that. Is that possible? For them to feel like they are born with the wrong body and be happy about that? Or at least indifferent about it.

If Gender Dysphoria makes one not being able to function properly in society then that would make it a disorder, one that requires medical and psychological help. Like someone who has depression, tries to kill themselves, becomes an alcoholic, ect. because of the Dysphoria. Whether its caused internally or externally.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 27, 2018)

SG854 said:


> I was looking at the definition of Gender Dysphoria and it say's not all Transgenders feel Gender Dysphoria. Which means they feel their brain doesn't match their body and they're okay with that. Is that possible? For them to feel like they are born with the wrong body and be happy about that? Or at least indifferent about it.
> 
> If Gender Dysphoria makes one not being able to function properly in society then that would make it a disorder, one that requires medical and psychological help. Like someone who has depression, tries to kill themselves, becomes an alcoholic, ect. because of the Dysphoria. Whether its caused internally or externally.


That's actually a good question, I'm curious as to what the "right" answer is there

And regarding other comments, so far as I can tell gender dysphoria is the mental disorder, while gender incongruence (gender not matching birth sex, i.e. non-binary/transgender) is what was removed, as it should be considered a successful treatment


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## SG854 (Jul 27, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> That's actually a good question, I'm curious as to what the "right" answer is there
> 
> And regarding other comments, so far as I can tell gender dysphoria is the mental disorder, while gender incongruence (gender not matching birth sex, i.e. non-binary/transgender) is what was removed, as it should be considered a successful treatment


I'm trying to figure out if Transgender and Gender Dysphoria are 2 different things. Because if all Trans feels Dysphoric then they are one in the same. Which then they would require some help especially if they want to transition. And the Definition saying not all suffer Dysphoria is a PC one. 

If this is true then removing it as a mental disorder is a step backwards for the sake or Political Correctness. And this will backfire. Because how else would they seek help if its something that is not classified as requiring help? As far as i'm aware Classifying Gender Dysphoria as a disorder gets you some government assistance for help. Removing the disorder classification will stop that assistance.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 27, 2018)

SG854 said:


> I'm trying to figure out if Transgender and Gender Dysphoria are 2 different things. Because if all Trans feels Dysphoric then they are one in the same. Which then they would require some help especially if they want to transition. And the Definition saying not all suffer Dysphoria is a PC one.
> 
> If this is true then removing it as a mental disorder is a step backwards for the sake or Political Correctness. And this will backfire. Because how else would they seek help if its something that is not classified as requiring help? As far as i'm aware Classifying Gender Dysphoria as a disorder gets you some government assistance for help. Removing the disorder classification will stop that assistance.


Being transgender, again, as I understand it, is the first healing step for someone who has body dysphoria. They aren't the same thing but are very closely related


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## The Catboy (Jul 28, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> So...
> 
> If it's no longer a mental illness, why is the medical treatment still paid by our taxes?


Because they are medical treatments. Although they are actually optional medical treatments, they are often seen as a treatments to help someone live a comfortable life. Just because it's not a mental disorder, doesn't mean it no longer requires medical help when/if needed.



SG854 said:


> I was looking at the definition of Gender Dysphoria and it say's not all Transgenders feel Gender Dysphoria. Which means they feel their brain doesn't match their body and they're okay with that. Is that possible? For them to feel like they are born with the wrong body and be happy about that? Or at least indifferent about it.
> 
> If Gender Dysphoria makes one not being able to function properly in society then that would make it a disorder, one that requires medical and psychological help. Like someone who has depression, tries to kill themselves, becomes an alcoholic, ect. because of the Dysphoria. Whether its caused internally or externally.





TotalInsanity4 said:


> That's actually a good question, I'm curious as to what the "right" answer is there
> 
> And regarding other comments, so far as I can tell gender dysphoria is the mental disorder, while gender incongruence (gender not matching birth sex, i.e. non-binary/transgender) is what was removed, as it should be considered a successful treatment


So it's actually a bit of a common misconception that all trans people have Gender Dysphoria, in most cases actually depression is often labeled as "Gender Dysphoria" because the client is trans. Gender Dysphoria is more or less a debilitating form of being "trans," basically someone who's actually in distress because their body doesn't fit their gender. Trans people aren't always in distress from being trans and often the act of fully transitioning is something they would prefer, but don't see as 100% necessary. It is actually quite possible for trans people to be happy in their body or at least as happy as they can be. A lot end up just going through HRT because it helps a lot with dealing with the societal induced depression. Basically most trans aren't actually suffering with being trans, thus don't really haveGender Dysphoria. Most just end up suffering with depression which is often treated like Gender Dysphoria. Although most studies have also found that transitioning does help with the depression as well, which is most likely a social issue more than a personal issue.


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## DodgyJudge (Jul 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Addiction is a mental disorder, regardless if drugs, alcohol, gambling, or video games. If someone is suffering from an addiction, then they are suffering from a mental disorder.


So if im addicted to drinking orange juice is it a mental disorder???


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## k3rizz3k (Jul 28, 2018)

DodgyJudge said:


> So if im addicted to drinking orange juice is it a mental disorder???


If it interferes with your regular life then yes it is. The true definition of addiction would have to mean that you can't go without orange juice Without having withdrawals that cause you to not be about to function correctly without it. Most people that self proclaim that they are addicted to something just like it a lot, they aren't addicted. An actual addiction has negative effects on someone's life.


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## The Catboy (Jul 28, 2018)

DodgyJudge said:


> So if im addicted to drinking orange juice is it a mental disorder???


That depends on what you mean by "addicted." Do you mean that you enjoy it so much that you drink it every morning? Or do you mean that you enjoy it so much that you are always drinking OJ and it's causing acid reflect from having too much citrus on your diet, but you continue to drink it despite it slowly destroying your body?
If it's the second one, then it's a mental disorder. If it's a first one, then you just like OJ a little too much.


TotalInsanity4 said:


> Being transgender, again, as I understand it, is the first healing step for someone who has body dysphoria. They aren't the same thing but are very closely related


Well kind of right. Being transgender is a lot of things, being trans however isn't the after effect of HRT. That being said, transitioning does indeed help people with GD.


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## SG854 (Jul 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Because they are medical treatments. Although they are actually optional medical treatments, they are often seen as a treatments to help someone live a comfortable life. Just because it's not a mental disorder, doesn't mean it no longer requires medical help when/if needed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see how HRT can reduce societal induced depression because it clearly obvious to recognize a trans. Like bone density doesn't match gender. If theres any societal pressure they are still going to put pressure and HRT won't alleviate that.

What are the actual numbers for Trans that don't suffer dysphoria?


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## The Catboy (Jul 28, 2018)

SG854 said:


> I don't see how HRT can reduce societal induced depression because it clearly obvious to recognize a trans. Like bone density doesn't match gender. If theres any societal pressure they are still going to put pressure and HRT won't alleviate that.
> 
> What are the actual numbers for Trans that don't suffer dysphoria?


I actually don't have the numbers behind that because I can't find any. Most of what I've had to do with research has been a peer to peer studies, basically doing my own interviews with others. So I should clarify when I say "most," I mean the majority of others who've I worked with personally, interviewed online, etc. I am not a professional, I am just someone who talks to people.
A lot of people tend to be more willing to accept someone who looks mostly like the gender they are presenting as as opposed to not transitioning at all, but this is just in some cases. At the same time your notion that we are easy to notice after HTR isn't actually completely true, meet Buck Angel


Well the social issue I guess still a personal issue. Basically being able to present more as their gender does help alleviate some of the pressure they feel from society.
Edit: do note, I am not an expert on this topic. Despite being trans myself, but that doesn't mean I talk on behalf of the community. I can only speak of the research and knowledge that I have.


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## SG854 (Jul 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> I actually don't have the numbers behind that because I can't find any. Most of what I've had to do with research has been a peer to peer studies, basically doing my own interviews with others. So I should clarify when I say "most," I mean the majority of others who've I worked with personally, interviewed online, etc. I am not a professional, I am just someone who talks to people.
> A lot of people tend to be more willing to accept someone who looks mostly like the gender they are presenting as as opposed to not transitioning at all, but this is just in some cases. At the same time your notion that we are easy to notice after HTR isn't actually completely true, meet Buck Angel
> View attachment 137375
> Well the social issue I guess still a personal issue. Basically being able to present more as their gender does help alleviate some of the pressure they feel from society.


If its asking others questions that isn't an actually study. It's just anecdotal not a reliable source on the overall image. Unless its a scientific peer reviewed paper you produced. Edit: As you said you are not an Expert that collects reliable data and don't speak for all Trans.

Thats a lot of surgery just to get to Bucks level. Not many people will get to transition to the same level as Buck. And even then his voice still has female distinct qualities and mannerisms. Buck Angel still had societal problems even after transition. It wasn't until he became famous people started to be more ok with him. Being famous puts you on another level. Majority of trans wont become famous.


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## Deleted User (Jul 28, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> She is not. Every single addiction is clasified as a mental disorder, even excesive exercise is an addiction. You can't just compare addiction with transgender. Two completely different things.


But they don't have tv addiction now do they? (or tv distorter)


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 28, 2018)

monkeyman4412 said:


> But they don't have tv addiction now do they? (or tv distorter)


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4114517/


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## SG854 (Jul 28, 2018)

@Lilith Valentine If you want actual studies. All studies on Transgender Mental Health and Transitioning. Transitioning improves quality of life.
Have Fun

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3722435/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1158136006000491
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958
https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(16)31941-4/fulltext
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24344788
https://www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/trans_mh_study.pdf


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## osaka35 (Jul 28, 2018)

SG854 said:


> If its asking others questions that isn't an actually study. It's just anecdotal not a reliable source on the overall image. Unless its a scientific peer reviewed paper you produced. Edit: As you said you are not an Expert that collects reliable data and don't speak for all Trans.
> 
> Thats a lot of surgery just to get to Bucks level. Not many people will get to transition to the same level as Buck. And even then his voice still has female distinct qualities and mannerisms. Buck Angel still had societal problems even after transition. It wasn't until he became famous people started to be more ok with him. Being famous puts you on another level. Majority of trans wont become famous.


I'd imagine it's also important how much meaning you put into it, and how much meaning you put into other's perception of you. Some folks just don't put much stock into common notions of gender, some dump all their self-worth into it. I'd imagine that plays a large part of some of the results we see.


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## KingVamp (Jul 28, 2018)

Let's say that there is a pill that could easily change your gender. I can see people switching, just due to curiosity. Maybe some are comfortable with both genders. I wouldn't say that these people have gender dysphoria.


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## Ty_ (Jul 28, 2018)

it is a mental illness, demonstrated by the high suicide rates in transgender people


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## JoeyMacCheese (Jul 28, 2018)

So cutting your dick off and pumping yourself with foreign hormones is totally okay, but play too much video games and whoops, you've a mental illness. This is ridiculous, suicide rates are glaringly high for them, showing they are not right in the head to begin with. And it's not because of transonic, we live in a time where you're not prosecuted for it, shunned, etc. Instead of fucking up your body, why don't you fix the mind first


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## Viri (Jul 28, 2018)

KingVamp said:


> Let's say that there is a pill that could easily change your gender. I can see people switching, just due to curiosity. Maybe some are comfortable with both genders. I wouldn't say that these people have gender dysphoria.


I would, just to get them Twitch bux. I'd stream like crazy, with half my tits hanging out. And then go back to being a guy after the stream is over.

Don't hit on me silly boys! I may have a vagina now, but I was a man just a few hours ago, and will be again.


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## The Catboy (Jul 28, 2018)

SG854 said:


> If its asking others questions that isn't an actually study. It's just anecdotal not a reliable source on the overall image. Unless its a scientific peer reviewed paper you produced. Edit: As you said you are not an Expert that collects reliable data and don't speak for all Trans.
> 
> Thats a lot of surgery just to get to Bucks level. Not many people will get to transition to the same level as Buck. And even then his voice still has female distinct qualities and mannerisms. Buck Angel still had societal problems even after transition. It wasn't until he became famous people started to be more ok with him. Being famous puts you on another level. Majority of trans wont become famous.


I am a no scientist even a doctor, I am just someone who talks to people and often conducts my own personal studies for really no reason other than attempting to get a greater understanding of people.
I used him more so as an example to say that say saying there is a tell isn't completely correct. If he walked up to you, you would very clearly tell he's a man.


SG854 said:


> @Lilith Valentine If you want actual studies. All studies on Transgender Mental Health and Transitioning. Transitioning improves quality of life.
> Have Fun
> 
> https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2
> ...


I was actually aware of these studies, but thank you for sharing them with me.


JoeyMacCheese said:


> So cutting your dick off and pumping yourself with foreign hormones is totally okay, but play too much video games and whoops, you've a mental illness. This is ridiculous, suicide rates are glaringly high for them, showing they are not right in the head to begin with. And it's not because of transonic, we live in a time where you're not prosecuted for it, shunned, etc. Instead of fucking up your body, why don't you fix the mind first





Ty_ said:


> it is a mental illness, demonstrated by the high suicide rates in transgender people


Mass murders and gun related suicides are far higher for white heterosexual cisgender males, yet no one argues that this group isn't mentally stable. Trans suicides have been linked to depression, depression that is more often caused by mistreatment. Trans people are more likely to be assaulted (in all forms,) raped, murdered, and basically just end up living a fearful life because people around them are horrible to them. Studies have also found that suicide rates dropped with accepting and helpful families/friends. It's pretty obvious that the rate of suicides is directly linked to social issues and not actually towards the person being trans.


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## Glyptofane (Jul 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> It's pretty obvious that the rate of suicides is directly linked to social issues and not actually towards the person being trans.


I'm sure the social issues they face are a contributing factor to the high suicide rate, but going by this logic, you would expect blacks to have the highest suicide rate of anyone yet it's one of the lowest.


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## The Catboy (Jul 28, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> I'm sure the social issues they face are a contributing factor to the high suicide rate, but going by this logic, you would expect blacks to have the highest suicide rate of anyone yet it's one of the lowest.


I hear this argument every single time, yet it's actually not completely true. Black youth actually has a far higher suicide rate than White youth
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-reveals-striking-trends-role-of-race-in-kids-suicide-risk/
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...hildren-have-higher-suicide-rates-than-whites
https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/news/news-stories/2018/may/suicide-age-rates-by-race.html
Although this research isn't sure quite why, it could also be linked to the reason why suicide rates are much lower in adulthood. If you've already made it through the worse, then there's really not much the world can throw at you. Older members of the LGBT+ tend to also have a far lower rate of suicide compared to their younger counterparts. 
Of course you failed to notice something important, social issues. Black communities tend to be extremely tight communities that tend to work together. This kind of close social interaction helps create bonds and connect people. Most trans people end up on their own, often with very few trans friends to talk to and very few helpful people in the medical field. Without much of a community to help through hard times, they are going to be alone and more likely to develop depression. Again going back to my previous statement that those who have supportive families and friends have a far lower suicide rate than those who don't.


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## Glyptofane (Jul 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Although this research isn't sure quite why, it could also be linked to the reason why suicide rates are much lower in adulthood. If you've already made it through the worse, then there's really not much the world can throw at you.


You make some fair points, but suicide is hardly an epidemic of youth. White, middle aged men account for around 70% of suicides in US each year. Perhaps most of these have no family to turn to or have already seen theirs destroyed.


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## Aldoria (Jul 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Addiction is a mental disorder, regardless if drugs, alcohol, gambling, or video games. If someone is suffering from an addiction, then they are suffering from a mental disorder.


At the moment you occasionally play video games, you'll be diagnosticated addicted to video games as much as people wh play all the time. And that is sad


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## The Catboy (Jul 28, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> You make some fair points, but suicide is hardly an epidemic of youth. White, middle aged men account for around 70% of suicides in US each year. Perhaps most of these have no family to turn to or have already seen theirs destroyed.


With that statistic, can't I argue that there's something mentally wrong with White middle age men? Or can we accept that depression caused by social isolation is the greater cause of the problem and put aside previous notions?


Aldoria said:


> At the moment you occasionally play video games, you'll be diagnosticated addicted to video games as much as people wh play all the time. And that is sad


That's completely false. Addition isn't sometimes doing something, it's doing something to extreme that it literally takes over one's life. People who have gaming addiction often lose everything to the addition, yet continue to game despite this fact. There's more to gaming addition than just sometimes playing video games or playing just playing them for hours from time to time.


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## Glyptofane (Jul 28, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> With that statistic, can't I argue that there's something mentally wrong with White middle age men? Or can we accept that depression caused by social isolation is the greater cause of the problem and put aside previous notions?


I still couldn't really determine it as one or the other. Maybe there is something mentally wrong with white middle aged men. I mean, it is difficult to imagine their circumstances being that vastly different from men of other races.


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## The Catboy (Jul 28, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> I still couldn't really determine it as one or the other. Maybe there is something mentally wrong with white middle aged men. I mean, it is difficult to imagine their circumstances being that vastly different from men of other races.


Again I refer back to my previous statement about social issues. The black community (and honestly a lot of communities) tend to be extremely tight communities and the suicide rates show just how much the tight communities effect the people in them. Honestly from an observational standpoint, most middle age white men end up in far less social situations and this can be the result of many factors. Regardless it seems most older men end up being rather alone or with a very small circle, which can cause depression. Looking again at results of you still see a lower rate of suicide in groups of people who have tight communities, who have accepting families/friends, and basically you see less issues with people who have healthy social interactions with people. Humans are social animals who need healthy social interactions in order to be mentally healthy, this translates into all people. This is the reason why there's why teen suicide rates dropped after same-sex marriage was legalized in all 50 states and that reason was a result of wide spread acceptance and support.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...s-linked-to-legalisation-of-same-sex-marriage
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rriage-see-drop-in-suicide-rate-a7592626.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/taraha...when-same-sex-marriage-is-legal/#38077f53b75b


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## GensokyoIceFairy (Jul 28, 2018)

Whoever the fuck called it a mental illness is an idiot. Being who you want to be is not a bad thing, so why label it as such?


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## FAST6191 (Jul 28, 2018)

GensokyoIceFairy said:


> Whoever the fuck called it a mental illness is an idiot. Being who you want to be is not a bad thing, so why label it as such?


It is a phenomenon, or perhaps aberration, that if left alone frequently, predictable or consistently leads to negative outcomes and a whole host of other conditions, falls under the can cause distress in the bearer of condition or others. Ethics discussions and outcomes studies may ultimately favour certain approaches or cause others to be frowned upon but that is of mild interest here at best. Some things may be aggravated by modern society but you don't not treat something because of that.

I have not read the WHO's reasoning for their new opinion at this point but its initial assessment as some flavour of mental illness, or at least a serious risk and complicating factor associated with them, and thus training your psychiatric types to assist in such things and scan for them makes sense to me.


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## Viri (Jul 28, 2018)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...gender-insurance-transgender-rights-1.4764839

If I lived in Canada, I'd do it too. Just go to the DMV or w/e, and say "Okay, I identify as a gurl" while wearing a wig. Bam, cheaper car insurance!


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## Quantumcat (Jul 29, 2018)

Viri said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...gender-insurance-transgender-rights-1.4764839
> 
> If I lived in Canada, I'd do it too. Just go to the DMV or w/e, and say "Okay, I identify as a gurl" while wearing a wig. Bam, cheaper car insurance!


I think you'd be done for fraud if you didn't change your gender everywhere else and it was found you'd never sought any counselling services or anything and if your family/friends were interviewed and it was found you never presented as female.


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## Viri (Jul 29, 2018)

Quantumcat said:


> I think you'd be done for fraud if you didn't change your gender everywhere else and it was found you'd never sought any counselling services or anything and if your family/friends were interviewed and it was found you never presented as female.


That guy went to his doctor, and said he was a girl, she said okay, and give him the proper paper work, and then his birth certificate was changed from M to F. Thus cheaper car insurance. If anyone doesn't respect his pronouns, that would be transphobic, you're not transphobic, right?


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## Quantumcat (Jul 29, 2018)

Viri said:


> That guy went to his doctor, and said he was a girl, she said okay, and give him the proper paper work, and then his birth certificate was changed from M to F. Thus cheaper car insurance.


I don't think it would be worth it for all the things that would happen to you because of it. Eg if where you lived didn't have same sex marriage yet.
But now I think of it, I wonder if getting your birth certificate changed would have been a good way to get a same sex marriage if they weren't allowed where you lived?


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## Viri (Jul 29, 2018)

Quantumcat said:


> I don't think it would be worth it for all the things that would happen to you because of it.


He saves 1100 dollars a year on car insurance, for something that took him a few days to do.


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## Quantumcat (Jul 29, 2018)

Viri said:


> He saves 1100 dollars a year on car insurance, for something that took him a few days to do.


You would have to pay for new passports, new drivers licenses, etc, plus it would be embarrassing if you started a new job, and imagine if you moved in with a partner and they saw your mail have "Ms." on it. I think it would screw up your life. He would have been smarter to get a cheaper car or some other way of reducing his insurance. He probably just wanted to create headlines.


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## antiNT (Jul 29, 2018)

Your gender is written in your chromosomes and you cannot change that.


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## Viri (Jul 29, 2018)

Quantumcat said:


> You would have to pay for new passports, new drivers licenses, etc, plus it would be embarrassing if you started a new job, and imagine if you moved in with a partner and they saw your mail have "Ms." on it. I think it would screw up your life. He would have been smarter to get a cheaper car or some other way of reducing his insurance. He probably just wanted to create headlines.


I would just become a girl before I got my driver's license, and passport. My partner would never laugh at my pronouns, she would respect them, because she's not a bigot!


----------



## 59672 (Jul 29, 2018)

Viri said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...gender-insurance-transgender-rights-1.4764839
> 
> If I lived in Canada, I'd do it too. Just go to the DMV or w/e, and say "Okay, I identify as a gurl" while wearing a wig. Bam, cheaper car insurance!



Ignoring the ignorance behind this post, it's not so simple. Most provinces you've got to change birth certificate first which involves several forms and documents signed off by your doctor. These forms aren't something simple and quick like a doctor's note for being sick. After that you can switch it over. Also, as a result the next time passport is renewed it would have be changed over as well. Naturally of course such things can also cause issues if you go to certain countries. It is by no means something simple, fast, painless or without potential consequence. Then there's the other issue entirely of living in a society with such a license, especially for someone not attempting to transition in the slightest.


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## Quantumcat (Jul 29, 2018)

Viri said:


> I would just become a girl before I got my driver's license, and passport. My partner would never laugh at my pronouns, she would respect them, because she's not a bigot!


 I can't speak for others but finding out that my partner changed his official gender just to save on money would make me think less of him. It is not about being a bigot or not - he would be trivialising the issues of trans people just to get ahead financially, it seems so wrong.

But anyway I read the article, it was all a stunt for attention about insurance prices. No real person would do that on purpose.


----------



## Daisy (Jul 29, 2018)

Ty_ said:


> it is a mental illness, demonstrated by the high suicide rates in transgender people


That's more to do with depression.


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## Viri (Jul 29, 2018)

59672 said:


> Ignoring the ignorance behind this post, it's not so simple. Most provinces you've got to change birth certificate first which involves several forms and documents signed off by your doctor. These forms aren't something simple and quick like a doctor's note for being sick. After that you can switch it over. Also, as a result the next time passport is renewed it would have be changed over as well. Naturally of course such things can also cause issues if you go to certain countries. It is by no means something simple, fast, painless or without potential consequence. Then there's the other issue entirely of living in a society with such a license, especially for someone not attempting to transition in the slightest.





Quantumcat said:


> I can't speak for others but finding out that my partner changed his official gender just to save on money would make me think less of him. It is not about being a bigot or not - he would be trivialising the issues of trans people just to get ahead financially, it seems so wrong.
> 
> But anyway I read the article, it was all a stunt for attention about insurance prices. No real person would do that on purpose.


https://fairplayforwomen.com/canadian-lauren-southern-becomes-man/
Lauren Southern is a pretty qt man, you gotta admit.


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## Ty_ (Jul 29, 2018)

Daisies said:


> That's more to do with depression.



Okay, which means transgender people have more issues with depression than the average person, tying in to the mental illness aspect. Also note that suicide rates for these people shoot up *after* transitioning


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## 59672 (Jul 29, 2018)

antiNT said:


> Your gender is written in your chromosomes and you cannot change that.



I hate to break it to you but gender and the sex of your body are two completely separate things. Gender is like self expression, it's a social construct or roles that we use to better define and align ourselves. Gender also breaks down into gender presentation (how you present yourself), gender identity (how you feel) and so on. Looking beyond the catholic western societies, there are other ones out there that have more than just the typical male and female genders, the idea of there being more than two is absolutely nothing new.
Sex refers to your body's physical anatomy, this is something that can only be changed by surgery. Indeed your sex, at least until altered by means of surgery is determined by your chromosomes. Also, like gender there are more than two sexes, there are also intersex folk out there, however rare they may be.


----------



## Ty_ (Jul 29, 2018)

59672 said:


> I hate to break it to you but gender and the sex of your body are two completely separate things. Gender is like self expression, it's a social construct or roles that we use to better define and align ourselves. Gender also breaks down into gender presentation (how you present yourself), gender identity (how you feel) and so on. Looking beyond the catholic western societies, there are other ones out there that have more than just the typical male and female genders, the idea of there being more than two is absolutely nothing new.
> Sex refers to your body's physical anatomy, this is something that can only be changed by surgery. Indeed your sex, at least until altered by means of surgery is determined by your chromosomes. Also, like gender there are more than two sexes, there are also intersex folk out there, however rare they may be.



If gender is a social construct/an expression and not an innate and therefore protected characteristic, why should I care about something like the gender pay gap?


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## 59672 (Jul 29, 2018)

Viri said:


> https://fairplayforwomen.com/canadian-lauren-southern-becomes-man/
> Lauren Southern is a pretty qt man, you gotta admit.




Your link is not only a source of TERF information which is disgusting but also highly misleading. Misgendering being a crime is something that transphobes like TERFs and the alt right love to parrot but it's not such a simple matter. Don't take my word for it, a decent albeit posted by Vice explanation can be found at https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/qbnamx/no-the-trans-rights-bill-doesnt-criminalize-free-speech

That individual may have found the perfect doctor to sign off without any real question but it is not such a simple journey

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Ty_ said:


> If gender is a social construct/an expression and not an innate and therefore protected characteristic, why should I care about something like the gender pay gap?



I fail to see any point you are making, no one says you have to care about the gender pay gap. You should as a decent person but hey, no one's forcing you to be, just like no one is forced to align to their assigned at birth gender. By virtue of living in a society, we might be automatically placed into such groupings but just because society places a null hypothesis on people typically being straight and cis by default, it doesn't make it the only valid standing.


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## deinonychus71 (Jul 29, 2018)

GensokyoIceFairy said:


> Whoever the fuck called it a mental illness is an idiot. Being who you want to be is not a bad thing, so why label it as such?


 
I know it's gonna be unpopular but oh well...
I don't think it's got anything to do with being an idiot. It's heavily influenced by the social norms at the time. The "social construct" that every kid is being taught early on.
In our current society, these norms tend towards inclusiveness (which in most cases is a good thing imho) but rather than calling all the people who are having issues getting on the train of progress "alt right" and "evil" etc... - maybe - understanding where they come from would be more beneficial than outright calling them idiots. Attack the biased construct, not the person.

Also, Being who you want to be is a good thing, but the question is how far do we go before it becomes fantasy, where do we draw the line?

Maybe I'd love to be living in the body of another species? Like therians/otherkins etc. Should I force this view on people and expect them to call me differently? If that sounds crazy and stupid, will that sound just as crazy and stupid in 10, 20 years?
For the record, just for saying that I've been called troll before, but I think these people don't realize that this could just be the new "fight" of tomorrow (I hope not) and before they know it, they would be the one in the position of the "alt right" for not understanding people who need to be recognized as something else.
And since I know people will start invoking science here, we do share part of our dna with animals. And we ignore a lot of about it still, so why not?

You're always gonna be "at the right" of something in your life.


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## Psi-hate (Jul 29, 2018)

I appreciate this, I've been told terrible and harsh things to me like "chopping off your body parts wont make you happy" or "you are mentally ill and if you don't get fixed you will likely end your life because of this disease". I don't even have genital dysphoria (not to an extent of it affecting my emotions), I just have other physical and appearance based dysphoria. Ideally taking estrogen would heal a lot of my problems. I've recognized me being a girl for 6 years and the pain gets worse, but it just means I'm closer to getting what I need. This will hopefully put a lot of ease into the process of getting the proper treatment we deserve.


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## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2018)

Ty_ said:


> Okay, which means transgender people have more issues with depression than the average person, tying in to the mental illness aspect. Also note that suicide rates for these people shoot up *after* transitioning


Actually that statement is completely false. Research (which has already been linked multiple times in this thread) has shown an increase in overall happiness, drop in depression, and drop in suicide rates. It's also been stated multiple times that links to depression and suicide have been connected to social issues and lack of a healthy supportive network. Basically the reason why suicides are higher than most is because people treating trans people like subhumans and they often end up in an unhealthy environment. Similar issues were shown during the periods before general acceptance of homosexuality, but in resent years suicides of homosexual youth have dropped drastically. Humans are social animals and need healthy social interactions with other humans. 


Ty_ said:


> If gender is a social construct/an expression and not an innate and therefore protected characteristic, why should I care about something like the gender pay gap?


It's called being a decent human. If someone is getting paid less for the same job based on arbitrary features, then that's something to be concerned about.


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## SG854 (Jul 29, 2018)

59672 said:


> I hate to break it to you but gender and the sex of your body are two completely separate things. Gender is like self expression, it's a social construct or roles that we use to better define and align ourselves. Gender also breaks down into gender presentation (how you present yourself), gender identity (how you feel) and so on. Looking beyond the catholic western societies, there are other ones out there that have more than just the typical male and female genders, the idea of there being more than two is absolutely nothing new.
> Sex refers to your body's physical anatomy, this is something that can only be changed by surgery. Indeed your sex, at least until altered by means of surgery is determined by your chromosomes. Also, like gender there are more than two sexes, there are also intersex folk out there, however rare they may be.


Sex being separate from Gender Identity and Expression has no scientific basis. No competent psychologists will agree with that. If it was different separate things then why do pray the gay away fail? Or telling trans that mentally they aren't the opposite sex fail? Social constructions have a biological basis behind it. Biology comes first then constructs.


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## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2018)

59672 said:


> I hate to break it to you but gender and the sex of your body are two completely separate things. Gender is like self expression, it's a social construct or roles that we use to better define and align ourselves. Gender also breaks down into gender presentation (how you present yourself), gender identity (how you feel) and so on. Looking beyond the catholic western societies, there are other ones out there that have more than just the typical male and female genders, the idea of there being more than two is absolutely nothing new.
> Sex refers to your body's physical anatomy, this is something that can only be changed by surgery. Indeed your sex, at least until altered by means of surgery is determined by your chromosomes. Also, like gender there are more than two sexes, there are also intersex folk out there, however rare they may be.


Actually the social construct argument does have some flaws in it. Gender expression is a social construct, but gender expression is only a small part of gender. There actually are biological differences that have been researched and shows that people who are trans often have the brain structure wired for the gender that they identify as. This is the more important factor as it does show something that can be studied and understood, where as gender expression is just a social construct.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/
https://bigthink.com/mike-colagross...ign-with-rather-than-what-they-were-born-with

Personally I am not a big fan of calling gender a social construct because it only focuses on some of the parts involved in gender and not the actual bigger picture.


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## KingVamp (Jul 29, 2018)

deinonychus71 said:


> Also, Being who you want to be is a good thing, but the question is how far do we go before it becomes fantasy, where do we draw the line?
> 
> Maybe I'd love to be living in the body of another species? Like therians/otherkins etc. Should I force this view on people and expect them to call me differently? If that sounds crazy and stupid, will that sound just as crazy and stupid in 10, 20 years?
> For the record, just for saying that I've been called troll before, but I think these people don't realize that this could just be the new "fight" of tomorrow (I hope not) and before they know it, they would be the one in the position of the "alt right" for not understanding people who need to be recognized as something else.
> And since I know people will start invoking science here, we do share part of our dna with animals. And we ignore a lot of about it still, so why not?



This reminds me of transhumanism.


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

*Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’*
By Michael W. Chapman | June 2, 2015 | 1:34 PM EDT


Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.

Dr. McHugh, the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, made his remarks in a recent commentary in the _Wall Street Journal_, where he explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a “disorder of ‘assumption’” – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.

He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% “spontaneously lost those feelings.”

While the Obama administration, Hollywood, and major media such as _Time_ magazine promote transgenderism as normal, said Dr. McHugh, these “policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention.”


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## guisadop (Jul 29, 2018)

But playing videogames is? Doesn't sound right to me.


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

I'd rather take the word of Doctor Paul R McHugh than an article written in the telegraph by a muppet whom is pushing this socio/political agenda!


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## Song of storms (Jul 29, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Because they are medical treatments. Although they are actually optional medical treatments, they are often seen as a treatments to help someone live a comfortable life. Just because it's not a mental disorder, doesn't mean it no longer requires medical help when/if needed.



Not saying that I'm against transgender people, but I think that you can't have both. If it's no longer considered a mental illness then I refuse to pay for these optional treatments with my taxes. Where is the free dental care? Those can drive people to suicide too but the lobby of dentists laugh their ass off whenever people say that they want free surgeries.


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## guisadop (Jul 29, 2018)

59672 said:


> Gender is like self expression, it's a social construct


So you're saying that if we create a gender-dysphoric boy to live as a boy he won't be gender-dysphoric anymore? That is absurd.
No, gender is not a social construct. It is innate, you're born with it, like sexual orientation.


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## KingVamp (Jul 29, 2018)

Everything else aside, saying real sex change is impossible is pretty shortsighted.


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

See my "Warning Level" it's at 40%, because I disagree with the op's and most of the mentally ill here on this issue and it's considered "trolling" to voice an opinion opposite to this world wide agenda.

How many young impressionable minds do you think come to this site daily for gaming/modding news and then see and read vulgar topics of discussion like this?????


Why a mod doesn't shut this thread down and delete has me baffled! Maybe they really want young men to go and mutilate themselves and then have to wear plastic in their new slit to stop the wound from healing. Pretty sickening if you ask me!


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## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2018)

DFdDFdefefecAADDFAADFGE said:


> Not saying that I'm against transgender people, but I think that you can't have both. If it's no longer considered a mental illness then I refuse to pay for these optional treatments with my taxes. Where is the free dental care? Those can drive people to suicide too but the lobby of dentists laugh their ass off whenever people say that they want free surgeries.


The treatment has actually been proven to better the lives of trans people and reduce depression and suicides. There's no reason not to support a treatment that has actually been proven to help people. As well your argument for dental care is something else, but it should be covered as well. It's absurd to have health care that doesn't care all health related issues, including dental. 


guisadop said:


> But playing videogames is? Doesn't sound right to me.


Why does this keep being brought up? Gaming isn't a mental disorder, people who literally starve to death because they addicted to gaming is. There is an extreme difference between what is classified as a video game addiction and your average gamer. I feel like people are taking it personally without actually looking into the actual qualification to what is considered an addiction.


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## Kingy (Jul 29, 2018)

59672 said:


> Also, like gender there are more than two sexes, there are also intersex folk out there, however rare they may be.


As people have already talked about the “social construct” myth, I’ll talk about this segment.

You can not classify intersex as an actual sex because it’s a birth defect. There is also no recorded case of the genitalia working. So no, there are only two sexes (which also means only two genders— gender is biologically linked to sex!) wether you like it or not.


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## SG854 (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> *Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’*
> By Michael W. Chapman | June 2, 2015 | 1:34 PM EDT
> 
> 
> ...


Something wrong happens in the developmental process that the brain develops differently then the body in the womb. Whether or not to classify that as a disorder is the debate.

Arguments I heard are...

What is the difference between Transabled people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) who don't want their arms or legs so they cut it off to be happier. Compared to a MTF trans who think they are in the wrong body so they cut off their genitals. Why is BIID a Disorder but not Trans. Both struggle with self identity and both feel they were born in the wrong body. 

A mental disorder is something that is disabling. So should we remove BIID as a disorder if Transgender is removed? People don't want to say someone who is in a wheel chair is handicapped but handicap-able, and don't want to see it as a disability or disabling. They say a wheel chair person can accomplish everything an abled body person can. They beat this in our heads over and over with make feel good self help speeches. If someone believes they can still function without their limbs and will be happier without an arm then what right do you have to tell them not to cut it off. 

If they are a computer programer and don't need legs to program and thus not as disabling to their life, should we then not classify it as a disorder if they cut off their legs they are not happy with. Who needs to walk to the grocery store when you can order online for delivery? Like a trans who goes through sex realignment surgery. Nothing is off with their brains compared to the masses and not a disorder.


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## linuxares (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> Why a mod doesn't shut this thread down and delete has me baffled! Maybe they really want young men to go and mutilate themselves and then have to wear plastic in their new slit to stop the wound from healing. Pretty sickening if you ask me!


Because this is a topic worth discussing and being a bigot like some of your posts, isn't really discussion material, just pure hatred.

Do I see a lot of wrong with the on going transcommunity? I actually do, lately being "trend transers" is something that's really big on Tumblr and social media. I also think a really deep psychologial evaluation is needed before doing a major body reconstruction with medicine and surgery. Since some might have bipolar disorder for example? But there are people out there with real gender dysphoria and why should we forbid them to be healthy and happy?

PS. There is also females that have gender dysphoria, not just men.


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## Viri (Jul 29, 2018)

guisadop said:


> But playing videogames is? Doesn't sound right to me.


I don't think gaming is a mental disorder, but some people do get too addicted to gaming. Some people play until they just die from a heart attack, like in China, and Taiwan. But, I don't think it's the video games alone that kill these guys, as they're already pretty much living in a net cafe, you'd have to be already depressed and not in a very good living situation to end up like that.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



59672 said:


> Your link is not only a source of TERF information which is disgusting but also highly misleading. Misgendering being a crime is something that transphobes like TERFs and the alt right love to parrot but it's not such a simple matter


I actually Googled it, and linked the first result I found. I knew about her becoming a man for a while now. I had no idea it was a TERF site. That's pretty funny.


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## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Something wrong happens in the developmental process that the brain develops differently then the body in the womb. Whether or not to classify that as a disorder is the debate.
> 
> Arguments I heard are...
> 
> ...


Honestly this argument doesn't really hold much water. Transgender was removed because there was significant enough evidence to show that it wasn't a mental disorder and thus shouldn't be treated like one. Someone who is trans isn't necessarily suffering from being trans. BIID on the other is there due to significant amount of evidence showing that it is a disorder and needs to be treated like one. Someone with BIID is actually suffering from the effects of the disorder and often feel as though removing said limb(s) will cure them. At the same time there's also no correlation between the two and bring up BIID is about as valid as bringing up the video game addiction.


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## DeslotlCL (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> See my "Warning Level" it's at 40%, because I disagree with the op's and most of the mentally ill here on this issue and it's considered "trolling" to voice an opinion opposite to this world wide agenda.
> 
> How many young impressionable minds do you think come to this site daily for gaming/modding news and then see and read vulgar topics of discussion like this?????
> 
> ...


This thread is in a section not related to gaming, so it CAN be here, no matter how badly you want it to be deleted. And funny how easily you get angered at stuff like this to the point of flamebaiting and then complaining that they censor you.

Being a dick =/= voicing your opinion.


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

DeslotlCL said:


> This thread is in a section not related to gaming, so it CAN be here, no matter how badly you want it to be deleted. And funny how easily you get angered at stuff like this to the point of flamebaiting and then complaining that they censor you.
> 
> Being a dick =/= voicing your opinion.



ouch.....

but they...the mods keep proving my point time and time again.


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## DeslotlCL (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> ouch.....
> 
> but they...the mods keep proving my point time and time again.


What point exactly? Censoring your post? Ugh, there are rules in this community. It is pretty easy to see why they delete your stuff and you have a 40% warning level.

As much as you are entitled to dislike this whole trangender/transexual issue, this forum was constuctred under certain level of tolerance for different view points that can be shared and discussed WITHOUT the need of being a complete ASSHOLE and INSULTING the other users.

The rules are there. Did you enjoyed reading the bible? Then read the freaking rules. Wont take you too much of your time.


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

I likened the trans agenda to the homo/sodomite agenda and to this latest push by the intellectuals(TedX etc.) of this world including yourself that paedophiles were born that way too. And one retard actually affirmed that belief. So it just goes to show everyone how truly retarded and evil some people in this world really are. And yes I'll be censored for this post and wouldn't be surprised if I get banned again for expressing a valid opinion which is on topic. You have a belief that trans are normal, based on no provable scientific or biological "FACTS"/ This is your religion!


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## Daisy (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> I likened the trans agenda to the homo/sodomite agenda and to this latest push by the intellectuals(TedX etc.) of this world including yourself that paedophiles were born that way too. And one retard actually affirmed that belief. So it just goes to show everyone how truly retarded and evil some people in this world really are. And yes I'll be censored for this post and wouldn't be surprised if I get banned again for expressing a valid opinion which is on topic. You have a belief that trans are normal, based on no provable scientific or biological "FACTS"/ This is your religion!



Relating being transgender to paedophiles is a classic bigot move. Nice one.

Just an FYI, the paedophile thing is almost entirely trolling to make LGBT look bad


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## deinonychus71 (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> ouch.....
> 
> but they...the mods keep proving my point time and time again.



From what I've seen, you're just as much pushing an agenda as anyone else here. You said yourself that you'd rather listen to X than muppet Y, this is basically what everyone is doing: Finding sources that will match their own views.

I actually don't know why it matters so much whether transgender is or isn't a disorder. Let's ask ourselves for a second: Why does it matter? It's not gonna make people who think it's a sickness change their mind, and it's not going to magically fix people "suffering" (double quoting because I don't like forced victimization) from how the world look at them. By itself this classification is forever changing as society evolves.
Whether you agree with transgenders views or think that is bullshit (and there are some good points to it), I think there's one thing only that matters, it's that we all deserve respect. If that "agenda" is to try reducing some bullying, so what? What does it change for you?

Now if tomorrow they start yelling at you in the street because you use "the wrong" pronouns, then that's another story, because they're not longer victims, they're oppressors. An issue rising with radical feminism lately (but that's another story).


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

Daisies said:


> Relating being transgender to paedophiles is a classic bigot move. Nice one.
> 
> Just an FYI, the paedophile thing is almost entirely trolling to make LGBT look bad




It's a mental disorder, both are as almost bad as each other


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## deinonychus71 (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> It's a mental disorder, both are as almost bad as each other



One is a decision that involves yourself and your body. The other is being attracted to other individuals who (legally) don't have the possibility to give consent.

Are you really going to say this comparison is a "valid opinion"?
Talk about having an agenda...


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

It is valid, and you can't refute the claim based on any provable science especially biology/neuroscience. This is all in your heads, and you're trying to force your opinions on those whom 1. Don't really care 2. Don't want their children abused and be led to believe that this is normal behaviour. So it is similar in a way, smartasses!


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## Ty_ (Jul 29, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Research (which has already been linked multiple times in this thread) has shown an increase in overall happiness, drop in depression, and drop in suicide rates



No:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Taken from a Swedish study. The conclusion was, "_Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group_"


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

Ty_ said:


> No:
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
> 
> Taken from a Swedish study. The conclusion was, "_Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group_"




You can't reason with liars like the one that you quoted in your post,  they are here to push an agenda, and as I said next thing it will be that paedophilia is normal and they were born that way. You wait and see, that will be the next socio/political agenda and will wind up on this "independent gaming community"! They have no shame and no moral compass!


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## Ty_ (Jul 29, 2018)

f0xrolder said:


> You can't reason with liars like the one that you quoted in your post,  they are here to push an agenda, and as I said next thing it will be that paedophilia is normal and they were born that way. You wait and see, that will be the next socio/political agenda and will wind up on this "independent gaming community"! They have no shame and no moral compass!



It's disingenuous to compare transgenderism with paedophilia. I care about the science and causing more actual harm than good to mentally ill people rather than some weird conspiracy theory


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## f0xrolder (Jul 29, 2018)

No the fact is that it's abuse on a young impressionable mind regardless! Paedophilia has a physical aspect to that abuse, both circumstances are and can be considered abusive!


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## The Catboy (Jul 29, 2018)

Ty_ said:


> No:
> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
> 
> Taken from a Swedish study. The conclusion was, "_Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group_"


Yet multiple studies posted in this thread counter this one study and multiple studies since that study have countered that study. There are other factors that need to be taken into consideration with each study. One of the factors needed are cases like Walt Heyer, who only acted on the direction of his doctors and thus resulted in a misdiagnosis. These kind of factors need to be taken into consideration when dealing with all studies. It's also worth noting that not all transgender people want to have a sex change and often go through with it without properly going through therapy. This is often linked to people thinking that they need to get a sex change to be trans than actually considering that it's not something that they need. There are more factors that this study didn't take into consideration, coupled with the study being 15 years old at this point and social issues have also changed.
But again, shouldn't I also be able to argue that there must be something wrong with cis white heterosexual males? That group has a far higher rate of mass shootings and also have a far higher rate of violate suicides (such as gun related or jumping off high areas.) I think that group honestly might not be very mentally stable and needs be put under mentally ill until we figure out why they have such higher numbers in these categories.


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## SG854 (Jul 29, 2018)

Lilith Valentine said:


> Honestly this argument doesn't really hold much water. Transgender was removed because there was significant enough evidence to show that it wasn't a mental disorder and thus shouldn't be treated like one. Someone who is trans isn't necessarily suffering from being trans. BIID on the other is there due to significant amount of evidence showing that it is a disorder and needs to be treated like one. Someone with BIID is actually suffering from the effects of the disorder and often feel as though removing said limb(s) will cure them. At the same time there's also no correlation between the two and bring up BIID is about as valid as bringing up the video game addiction.


Many people with GIID are MTF trans. Especially for ones that have Gender Dysphoria they could be related and not separate things. They both are identity disorders.



Lilith Valentine said:


> Yet multiple studies posted in this thread counter this one study and multiple studies since that study have countered that study. There are other factors that need to be taken into consideration with each study. One of the factors needed are cases like Walt Heyer, who only acted on the direction of his doctors and thus resulted in a misdiagnosis. These kind of factors need to be taken into consideration when dealing with all studies. It's also worth noting that not all transgender people want to have a sex change and often go through with it without properly going through therapy. This is often linked to people thinking that they need to get a sex change to be trans than actually considering that it's not something that they need. There are more factors that this study didn't take into consideration, coupled with the study being 15 years old at this point and social issues have also changed.
> But again, shouldn't I also be able to argue that there must be something wrong with cis white heterosexual males? That group has a far higher rate of mass shootings and also have a far higher rate of violate suicides (such as gun related or jumping off high areas.) I think that group honestly might not be very mentally stable and needs be put under mentally ill until we figure out why they have such higher numbers in these categories.


You can argue that something biological is the cause of males higher mass shootings and incarcerations since men have higher testosterone levels then women. 
Also Blacks have higher testosterone then whites which is why they shoot more. And Asians have less then whites and blacks which is why they shoot less then both.


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## Kyuuketsuki (Jul 29, 2018)

Hah, someone could meme the shit out of this... Now that transgenderism isn't a mental illness, but video games are.



I mean to cause no offense, but it is amusing how things in 2018 are progressing.


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## DinohScene (Jul 29, 2018)

Kyuuketsuki said:


> Hah, someone could meme the shit out of this... Now that transgenderism isn't a mental illness, but video games are.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean to cause no offense, but it is amusing how things in 2018 are progressing.




Turning things into stupid memes is certainly the way to go forward ;')


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## SG854 (Jul 29, 2018)

Kyuuketsuki said:


> Hah, someone could meme the shit out of this... Now that transgenderism isn't a mental illness, but video games are.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean to cause no offense, but it is amusing how things in 2018 are progressing.



Video games aren't a mental illness. If someone creates a meme its because they don't understand correctly what an illness is and isn't. 
Basically they are creating a meme out of ignorance. And laughing at something based on something they made up and isn't true.


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## MionissNio (Jul 29, 2018)

I domdo understand why people who are not trans are fussing about this? It shouldn't concern you unless you have a friend or child who is Transgender or you are transgender yourself and denying it?

Regarding gaming addiction as mental illness, go research what an addiction is before fussing about it. Even studying addiction is a mental illness if you know what an illness is.


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## SG854 (Jul 29, 2018)

MionissNio said:


> I domdo understand why people who are not trans are fussing about this? It shouldn't concern you unless you have a friend or child who is Transgender or you are transgender yourself and denying it?
> 
> Regarding gaming addiction as mental illness, go research what an addiction is before fussing about it. Even studying addiction is a mental illness if you know what an illness is.


Isn't there a complaint that people don't care about others issues is what causes problems in the world? They fail to learn about others cultures and problems so they live in an ignorance bubble, and do things based on ignorance. Not enough people learning about different groups of people that is different from them is the complaint.

And I like reading and learning about Fish, even though i'm not a Fish myself or a marine biologist I like learning about things in the world out of curiosity. This curiosity gives me a better understanding of how the world works so I can better navigate it because things often interconnect no matter how little they seem.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 29, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Isn't there a complaint that people don't care about others issues is what causes problems in the world? They fail to learn about others cultures and problems so they live in an ignorance bubble, and do things based on ignorance. Not enough people learning about different groups of people that is different from them is the complaint.
> 
> And I like reading and learning about Fish, even though i'm not a Fish myself or a marine biologist I like learning about things in the world out of curiosity. This curiosity gives me a better understanding of how the world works so I can better navigate it because things often interconnect no matter how little they seem.


I'm fairly certain you know that's not what they meant. Obviously learning about the intricacies of the mental and physical aspect of being transgender should really be a priority (specifically either from trans people themselves or from gender scientists that obviously have credible say on the subject), especially for anyone participating in a discussion like this, but what it seems that @MionissNio is referring to is the overabundance of people in this thread who not only refuse to learn anything about the subject (short of "it's sinful"/"they're confused"/"it's a mental disorder") but who actively denounce it in spite of it both not affecting them and doing minimal research


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## Kyuuketsuki (Jul 29, 2018)

DinohScene said:


> Turning things into stupid memes is certainly the way to go forward ;')



Memes over memes will eventually get the job done, then hopefully one day videogames won't be classed as a mental health disorder (just like memes saved the EU meme ban - or so we like to believe). 



SG854 said:


> Video games aren't a mental illness. If someone creates a meme its because they don't understand correctly what an illness is and isn't.
> Basically they are creating a meme out of ignorance. And laughing at something based on something they made up and isn't true.



We all know videogames aren't a mental illness, but WHO (the same people who just declassified transgenderism as a mental illness), declared videogames as a mental health disorder last month. But memes are good at mocking their decisions as to one classification and the next, which the videogame mental health disorder, typically should fall under the category of addiction (but try telling them that).

As for the transgenderism, it's also not a mental health disorder because if it was, the world would be in a panic thinking all these mental people are in the streets during the month of June, so WHO actually got something right.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 29, 2018)

Kyuuketsuki said:


> We all know videogames aren't a mental illness, but WHO (the same people who just declassified transgenderism as a mental illness), declared videogames as a mental health disorder last month. But memes are good at mocking their decisions as to one classification and the next, which the videogame mental health disorder, typically should fall under the category of addiction (but try telling them that).


"Videogames" themselves aren't the disorder, it's when people obsessively play videogames and it gets in the way of everyday life that it's recognized as a mental health problem.

And saying "it's not a mental health problem, if anything it should be considered an addiction" is like saying "we shouldn't call someone with alcohol abuse issues an alcoholic, if anything it should be considered an alcohol addiction"


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## SG854 (Jul 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> I'm fairly certain you know that's not what they meant. Obviously learning about the intricacies of the mental and physical aspect of being transgender should really be a priority (specifically either from trans people themselves or from gender scientists that obviously have credible say on the subject), especially for anyone participating in a discussion like this, but what it seems that @MionissNio is referring to is the overabundance of people in this thread who not only refuse to learn anything about the subject (short of "it's sinful"/"they're confused"/"it's a mental disorder") but who actively denounce it in spite of it both not affecting them and doing minimal research


Is that what they meant? You explain it more clearly then they did. It's not ones fault for missing that if they a reading quickly have other things on their mind and the post wasn't clear about that.

Even then If one is going to be consistent then you would also have to include people that also do not denounce it but aren't trans themselves. Simply learning out of curiosity. Even if thats what the person didn't mean they would still have to follow logical consistency. This is why I don't bring up the if doesn't affect you why bother argument myself. It is though mostly semantics at this point.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Kyuuketsuki said:


> Memes over memes will eventually get the job done, then hopefully one day videogames won't be classed as a mental health disorder (just like memes saved the EU meme ban - or so we like to believe).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are mocking based on their misunderstanding on the psychological field. Simple doing a lot of something isn't a disorder. If it was then we all would have a some type of disorder. It's only a disorder if it causes damage to oneself or their life.


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## Glyptofane (Jul 29, 2018)

FAST6191 said:


> It is a phenomenon, or perhaps aberration, that if left alone frequently, predictable or consistently leads to negative outcomes and a whole host of other conditions, falls under the can cause distress in the bearer of condition or others. Ethics discussions and outcomes studies may ultimately favour certain approaches or cause others to be frowned upon but that is of mild interest here at best. Some things may be aggravated by modern society but you don't not treat something because of that.
> 
> I have not read the WHO's reasoning for their new opinion at this point but its initial assessment as some flavour of mental illness, or at least a serious risk and complicating factor associated with them, and thus training your psychiatric types to assist in such things and scan for them makes sense to me.


Good call here. Transgender is not a mental illness, but mental illness leads to it and persists afterward.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 29, 2018)

Glyptofane said:


> Good call here. Transgender is not a mental illness, but mental illness leads to it and persists afterward.


Eh... I wouldn't say mental illness leads to being genderqueer, I'd almost say it's the opposite, although not directly. Transgender people are disproportionately bullied by peers that aren't accepting of them, and because of repeated negative treatment a disproportionate amount of them develop emotional issues that lead to mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, and OCD


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## Harumyne (Jul 29, 2018)

WHO are not to be trusted, they make decisions based on financial gain, this can be observed in many areas like food and drugs sectors.

Look how they ignored and denied the benefits of cannabinoids for so long.

This means nothing really, science will do it's best but there are some things we might not understand truly for decades yet.

I believe it to be a set of conditoins that trigger based on bad food, bad social scenes or lack thereof and a set of society's aged traditions that man and woman are expected to follow, nothing else.


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## dpad_5678 (Jul 29, 2018)

I can taste the hurt rightist internet troll feelings from here.


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## MionissNio (Jul 29, 2018)

SG854 said:


> Isn't there a complaint that people don't care about others issues is what causes problems in the world? They fail to learn about others cultures and problems so they live in an ignorance bubble, and do things based on ignorance. Not enough people learning about different groups of people that is different from them is the complaint.
> 
> And I like reading and learning about Fish, even though i'm not a Fish myself or a marine biologist I like learning about things in the world out of curiosity. This curiosity gives me a better understanding of how the world works so I can better navigate it because things often interconnect no matter how little they seem.



As @TotalInsanity4 mentioned I am mentioning bigots saying "A boy cannot be a gurl that is unpossible" without thinking outside their bubbleb people in this thread. I know there are people here who are genuinely curious and asking questions.

I live in a culture where trans people are persecuted a lot; at birth they are separated from their families into small isolated groups called Hijras. Transgenders' whole life is begging for money as no place provides them Job. Seeing such bigoted behavior towards who are just essentially humans makes my blood boil.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Jul 29, 2018)

MionissNio said:


> As @TotalInsanity4 mentioned I am mentioning bigots saying "A boy cannot be a gurl that is unpossible" without thinking outside their bubbleb people in this thread. I know there are people here who are genuinely curious and asking questions.
> 
> I live in a culture where trans people are persecuted a lot; at birth they are separated from their families into small isolated groups called Hijras. Transgenders' whole life is begging for money as no place provides them Job. Seeing such bigoted behavior towards who are just essentially humans makes my blood boil.


Curious, but how do they separate the kids from their families at birth? Or are you referring to children of transgender parents?


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## Quantumcat (Jul 29, 2018)

MionissNio said:


> As @TotalInsanity4 mentioned I am mentioning bigots saying "A boy cannot be a gurl that is unpossible" without thinking outside their bubbleb people in this thread. I know there are people here who are genuinely curious and asking questions.
> 
> I live in a culture where trans people are persecuted a lot; at birth they are separated from their families into small isolated groups called Hijras. Transgenders' whole life is begging for money as no place provides them Job. Seeing such bigoted behavior towards who are just essentially humans makes my blood boil.


You might be thinking of hermaphrodites. A transgender person is biologically a member of one sex but their brains feel like they're the other gender, and that they have the wrong body. You wouldn't know you're transgender until you're old enough to talk and you know the difference between boys and girls.


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## MionissNio (Jul 29, 2018)

TotalInsanity4 said:


> Curious, but how do they separate the kids from their families at birth? Or are you referring to children of transgender parents?



At birth is sort of an exaggeration because it's mostly what my relatives told me do it set at the top of my head, but there are reported cases. The issue is there are even Physical transgenders in my cultrue as outright ridiculous as it is, if a penis is bit deformed than they outright label the child as ladyboy and donate it to the local group. There are also the intersex people who fall in the same Hijras category. Otherwise transgenders usally seperated between age 10 to 16 I think but don't qoute me on that.

@Quantumcat exactly this is the closest definition to "Hijras" but there are trans people there on the group as well. Worst part is There is nothing against transgenders in Islam yet they even persecute them for *following* religion.


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## Delerious (Jul 30, 2018)

From what I understand, a lot of Gender Dysphoric people tend to be very prone to depression (hence why suicide rates among transgenders is high). For those people, I do believe that mental care should be taken seriously before they consider transition, because a lot of them still can't cope with the fact that they were born as one gender, even after transition. And the whole social/political climate where all bad things are men's fault certainly is not helping a lot of said people. That said, while I don't necessarily believe that being transgender is so much a mental disorder, I do believe in looking at the context of it. When it comes to those who do genuinely show signs of anxiety regarding their gender, then they probably should go to a therapist, and perhaps should be considered Gender Dysphoric. I haven't read the article, so I don't know all the stipulations, but I hope they've at least accounted for such issues.


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## MaverickWellington (Aug 1, 2018)

Viri said:


> Well, thoughts? This should make for a fun thread!
> 
> https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/06/...t-a-mental-illness-world-health-organisation/


I mean, transgenderism is not a mental illness in and of itself. There's nothing really wrong with the WHO reporting this or changing it as such. The real mental illness is gender dysphoria. Transgenderism is nothing more than a coping mechanism for gender/body dysphoria. To call a coping mechanism a mental illness is unfair imo.


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## TotalInsanity4 (Aug 1, 2018)

MaverickWellington said:


> I mean, transgenderism is not a mental illness in and of itself. There's nothing really wrong with the WHO reporting this or changing it as such. The real mental illness is gender dysphoria. Transgenderism is nothing more than a coping mechanism for gender/body dysphoria. To call a coping mechanism a mental illness is unfair imo.


That's oversimplifying it, in my opinion at least, but I agree with the overall intent of your post


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## tinysolderingguy (Aug 6, 2018)

damn bruh


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