# Obama Administration Announces Massive Piracy Crackdown



## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

It's mostly been Canada in the news with regards to digital copyright enforcement measures, but I guess now it's time for the American government to get another turn at bat.

This seems like a horrendously bad move for the Democrats... I have to say, many of Obama's decisions and stances have been dissapointing since he took office... but I guess that's only to be expected, as the politicians who tend to dissapoint the most are usually the ones with so much hype and hope for change surrounding them.  Though, in all honesty, I figured he wasn't as left-wing as a lot of people gave him credit for after he said that he believed marriage was only valid between a man and woman.  So while this isn't entirely surprising, it's still quite dissapointing.

The more interesting parts are bolded.  It's a shame that the current Administration, the RIAA and MPAA can all now be cited as touting the same line of BS.  How they can justify criminalizing the bypass of DRM, I have no idea.  I know why the industry wants it done (so they can charge people multiple times to have the same media on different devices), but why on Earth can't the government see this for what it is?  Why do they go along with it?  How do you even enforce that?  If you want to rip a movie/CD or dump a DS game which I've legally bought, who are they to say you can't?

I hope this terrible bill gets the response it deserves... Americans really shouldn't sit back and allow the government to pass something that would turn virtually the entire population into criminals.  Yes, piracy is wrong; and yes, it should be curbed.  But to infringe the fair use rights of consumers (consumers who legally buy the content being pirated) to do so?  Sorry, but that's bullshit.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=18815


			
				QUOTE said:
			
		

> Obama Administration Announces Massive Piracy Crackdown
> Jason Mick (Blog) - June 23, 2010 10:37 AM
> 
> "It's smash and grab, no different than a guy walking down Fifth Avenue and smashing the window at Tiffany's and reaching in and grabbing what's in the window." -- U.S. VP Joe Biden
> ...


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## Crimsonclaw111 (Jun 23, 2010)

Well this fucking sucks


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## Overlord Nadrian (Jun 23, 2010)

Violating someone's privacy is obviously something the government has never heard of. I mean, seriously? They look at the things you type in the search bar?

Also, "_Piracy hurts, it hurts our economy_" is bullshit. Of course, a small percentage of sales is affected, but they should think "If you can't beat them, join them" just for once. If they slightly increase the price of empty discs (CD/DVD/Blu-Ray/etc), the money loss of people pirating on a daily basis is easily solved. Heck, they could even earn more money by doing that.


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## DeltaBurnt (Jun 23, 2010)

Since when has piracy every been a problem to the government? I highly doubt they're doing this for the "sake of the economy". They were probably just tired of Warner Bros. whining about their 2% loss in sales.

Also, really? They're going to bust us just for almost pirating something? That's like immediately putting someone who searches "bomb" on the known terrorist list.


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## Defiance (Jun 23, 2010)

..Using _our_ tax dollars to hurt _us_?  I just don't know what to say, other than part of me will die if Obama gets reelected..


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm a Democrat and I find this very useless and I'm disappointed. I want him to legalize Same Sex Marriages for All 50 States there are more important thing than Massive Piracy Crackdown! Civil Rights issues are bigger than this issue.


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## zachpl (Jun 23, 2010)

He won't get reelected.


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## DeltaBurnt (Jun 23, 2010)

If anything this is just an all talk thing to scare pirates. We've had these "scares" happening at-least twice a year now.


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## Crimsonclaw111 (Jun 23, 2010)

This is a civil rights issue


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## Lushay (Jun 23, 2010)

Lol, how do you stop an almost pirate? That's like bringing the hammer down on someone who looks up the word "pirates" and accidentally winds up staring at a truck load of torrents.


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## Overlord Nadrian (Jun 23, 2010)

DeltaBurnt said:
			
		

> Since when has piracy every been a problem to the government? I highly doubt they're doing this for the "sake of the economy". They were probably just tired of Warner Bros. whining about their 2% loss in sales.
> 
> Also, really? They're going to bust us just for almost pirating something? That's like immediately putting someone who searches "bomb" on the known terrorist list.


Imagine what would happen if you searched the term "sex bomb", they would think you are a masochist, a terrorist, a pervert, etc.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jun 23, 2010)

Knowing the Republicans nowadays they'll probably go all out against any bill he pushes, and for once I'm thankful for that. And the full Democratic party won't be backing this, I assure you.

Piracy won't kill the economy, even games that get millions of downloads still have great sales.


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

DeltaBurnt said:
			
		

> If anything this is just an all talk thing to scare pirates. We've had these "scares" happening at-least twice a year now.



It won't help him get re-elected, though.  If he's willing to bow down to lobby groups to _this_ extent, whether just a scare tactic or not, it's going to turn a ton of people away from supporting this administration.  And rightfully so, as it only further proves that whether you're talking about Democrat or Republican, neither really give a crap about the average person.  And both care more about pleasing their corporate overlords than they do supporting those people who put them in their goddamn office.


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## Crimsonclaw111 (Jun 23, 2010)

^Or somebody who types in "facials" and sees...something that isn't related to beauty services.


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## berlinka (Jun 23, 2010)

FUCK! I just typed "Rick Astley torrent" in the Google search bar... Am I already in trouble now?


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## DeltaBurnt (Jun 23, 2010)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> Knowing the Republicans nowadays they'll probably go all out against any bill he pushes, and for once I'm thankful for that. And the full Democratic party won't be backing this, I assure you.
> 
> Piracy won't kill the economy, even games that get millions of downloads still have great sales.



Something tells me that they don't realize that piracy has been around since computer games and floppy drives have existed.


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## Raika (Jun 23, 2010)

Pirates? You should be more worried about Assassins, you silly man.


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## Rydian (Jun 23, 2010)

And the very first line proves they don't know shit.



			
				QUOTE said:
			
		

> "It's smash and grab, no different than a guy walking down Fifth Avenue and smashing the window at Tiffany's and reaching in and grabbing what's in the window." -- U.S. VP Joe Biden


Stealing is bad because you deprive the person of what you stole.

When you pirate something, you're making a copy, the original is left alone.
Nobody is deprived of the original object.

The people making the decisions don't know what's actually going on.


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## hey_suburbia (Jun 23, 2010)

This is nothing new.

The Bush Administration did the same thing in 2005:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search...t_id=1001477589

Again in 2007:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9736941-7.html


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## gamefreak94 (Jun 23, 2010)

WHAT!
They act like we are going to the store or the gaming company themselves, and stealing the games.  Piracy does is not stealing its making a copy and getting that copy unlike taking something. I know piracy is bad but this is BS.  Obama hasn't done anything he said yet.  I guess when he said its time for a change he meant for the worse.


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## yuyuyup (Jun 23, 2010)

Raika said:
			
		

> Pirates? You should be more worried about Assassins, you silly man.


Is that a threat ?


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## Magmorph (Jun 23, 2010)

It could be worse; Sarah Palin could be president.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jun 23, 2010)

DeltaBurnt said:
			
		

> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't copy that floppy!

But I do believe it's just another scare so we can get all frantic here. We have shitload of shit to walk through before we even begin to remotely care about people pirating crap on the internet. Maybe in the year 2050 when we actually don't have any immediate problems (although that's unlikely) we'll start a serious piracy crackdown, but for now it's just all bark and no bite.


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## DiscostewSM (Jun 23, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> This is among the first official "thought crime" provisions to be proposed by the U.S. government.



Minority Report, lol.


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## Overlord Nadrian (Jun 23, 2010)

yuyuyup said:
			
		

> Raika said:
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The answer to that is as obvious as if I'd ask you if you were Obama.



Spoiler



HELL YES


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## Thoob (Jun 23, 2010)

This seems to totally condradict the fact that pirates are the people who on averge buy the most music.


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## jonesman99 (Jun 23, 2010)

A Janelle Monae quote best fits here:

"And when I look into the future I see danger in its eyes
Hearts of hatred rule the land while love is left aside
Killing plagues the citizens while music slowly dies
I get frightened, I - see, I get frightened, I..."

I feel the world is getting dumber (for lack of a better word) by the day.


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## monkat (Jun 23, 2010)

I don't know about typing "Artist Torrent" being illegal, but we really should start cracking down on piracy. A lot of us simply can not afford it, but a lot of us can and just don't buy.

I know a lot of people here won't like it, but everything they said is true, it does hurt our economy, and it really should stop.


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## Midna (Jun 23, 2010)

This sounds like the Minority Report. "He might be about to commit a crime, attest him!"

Edit: someone posted that before me


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## megawalk (Jun 23, 2010)

Ban the government...
i hate privacy scoldings.
everything that is privacy, should always be privacy.
thats why i believe in a world without a government.
dictation and dominion always lead to inference and providence.
i hope somebody gets a lesson of that.


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## omgpwn666 (Jun 23, 2010)

This is no news to me since I'm slow and thought a major piracy crackdown already happened. So I stopped downloading illegal torrents about two years ago.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 23, 2010)

This won't stimulate the economy at all! He should be tackling Same Sex Marriages I'm for that it's a very important issue than this like I said earlier and if Same Sex Marriages get legalized that would fuel the economy honestly Obama maybe smart but this move is just a mistake he should tackle stuff that will stimulate the economy. Legalize Prostitution I'm up for that although it's wrong but people will pay for sex. Also start taxing churches they have a shitload of money but yet they use it for themselves.


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

'tis a shame that these days, when people see "thoughtcrime", their minds turn to something as mundane and pedestrian as Minority Report.


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## Midna (Jun 23, 2010)

TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> This won't stimulate the economy at all! He should be tackling Same Sex Marriages I'm for that it's a very important issue than this like I said earlier and if Same Sex Marriages get legalized that would fuel the economy honestly Obama maybe smart but this move is just a mistake he should tackle stuff that will stimulate the economy. Legalize Prostitution I'm up for that although it's wrong but people will pay for sex. Also start taxing churches they have a shitload of money but yet they use it for themselves.


Was that a call to legalize prostitution? What, because you can't get get sex anywhere else and you don't want the law hanging over you?

And tax churches? Really?


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## monkat (Jun 23, 2010)

TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> This won't stimulate the economy at all! He should be tackling Same Sex Marriages I'm for that it's a very important issue than this like I said earlier and if Same Sex Marriages get legalized that would fuel the economy honestly Obama maybe smart but this move is just a mistake he should tackle stuff that will stimulate the economy. Legalize Prostitution I'm up for that although it's wrong but people will pay for sex. Also start taxing churches they have a shitload of money but yet they use it for themselves.



1. Yeah, Same sex marriage should be legalized, not necessarily for fiscal reasons, but it would increase state tax revenue, pay for marriage licenses, and more money to chapels and things.

2. Prostitution is legal in Las Vegas, and look where they're at. It would be good if the prostitutes spent it on things that aren't drugs or going straight to their pimps.

3. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to tax churches (at least it is in Britain...man I hate my western civ course), but either way they don't have that much money. Most of the money that they have is from donations, and most of that goes to charities and such.


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## Veho (Jun 23, 2010)

He actually made a secret deal with Nintendo, to scare any pirates from even attempting to crack the 3DS once it comes out.


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## Midna (Jun 23, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> 'tis a shame that these days, when people see "thoughtcrime", their minds turn to something as mundane and pedestrian as Minority Report.


Very well. Sounds like Nineteen Eighty-Four


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> Was that a call to legalize prostitution? What, because you can't get get sex anywhere else and you don't want the law hanging over you?
> 
> While I don't see how prostitution has much to do with this issue, what would be the big problem with legalizing it?  It would be better regulated... safer for both parties involved, etc.  It's the world's oldest profession, and it's never going away regardless of how much some prudes might want it to.
> 
> ...



There are many Churches which are, functionally, more of a business than many businesses.  I have no issue with them being taxed.  They should contribute to society, like any other organization.


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## Midna (Jun 23, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> Midna said:
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But are the participants always alults of sound mind? How did the harems in the middle east go?


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## Rydian (Jun 23, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> How did the harems in the middle east go?


Polygamy =/= Harem.
Middle East =/= USA.


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## The Pi (Jun 23, 2010)

Raika said:
			
		

> Pirates? You should be more worried about Assassins, you silly man.









 I agree

Most people buy the (overpriced) products anyway and they still make large profits.

You ever heard of a company who died through Piracy? Don't think so


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## MelodieOctavia (Jun 23, 2010)

Well, it's official. Obama has no idea what the fuck he is doing. I even voted for the sorry bastard.


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## George Dawes (Jun 23, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> 'tis a shame that these days, when people see "thoughtcrime", their minds turn to something as mundane and pedestrian as Minority Report.
> It's even a step below people thinking about '84 from the grass and absolute shitstain Orwell.
> 
> 
> QUOTE(monkat @ Jun 23 2010, 09:38 PM) 3. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to tax churches (at least it is in Britain...man I hate my western civ course), but either way they don't have that much money. Most of the money that they have is from donations, and most of that goes to charities and such.


The catholic church is one of the wealthiest organisations in the world.  Other religious organisations may not have quite that level of wealth, but most have plenty stockpiled away.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 23, 2010)

In the sense we feel robbed by these companies who make crappy games,music,movies,etc. we do feel robbed by these companies look at the games,movies,music,etc. that they made that are just horrible we feel robbed and they made a great profit off of it. Some things do deserve their money like really good games,movies,music, etc. but when the crappy companies make crappy stuff and make a profit out of this they're the real crooks.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 23, 2010)

George Dawes said:
			
		

> The catholic church is one of the wealthiest organisations in the world.  Other religious organisations may not have quite that level of wealth, but most have plenty stockpiled away.


Yet those priest are a bunch of kid fuckers and blame the devil for their problems.


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## GameWinner (Jun 23, 2010)

Now I really know what "Change" means!


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> But are the participants always alults of sound mind?



What makes the participants any less likely to be of sound mind than just 2 people who want to get married?  Because one group you can understand, and the other you don't?  Assumptions like that are inherently flawed, as they're based on nothing but groundless human prejudice.  It's not a valid argument against banning either polygamy or just plain old marriage.

I have no interest in polygamy myself, but not allowing it is, IMO, ridiculous.  Too much of our society is based in silly, outdated, and hypocritical religious versions of "morality".


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## .Chris (Jun 23, 2010)

Overlord Nadrian said:
			
		

> ...but they should think "If you can't beat them, join them" just for once. If they slightly increase the price of empty discs (CD/DVD/Blu-Ray/etc), the money loss of people pirating on a daily basis is easily solved. Heck, they could even earn more money by doing that.
> 
> Oi, I agree.
> 
> ...


Well, a majority of them don't.


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

It's not like this is a new thing, though.  Here's a gem from the early 90s... 'cuz we all know that the rampant piracy caused the videogame industry to die out years ago


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## Midna (Jun 23, 2010)

George Dawes said:
			
		

> TM2-Megatron said:
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_*this quote was trashed*_

If I can gather enough accounts of rape by accountants, can we say that all accountants are rapists?


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## DeltaBurnt (Jun 23, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> It's not like this is a new thing, though.  Here's a gem from the early 90s... 'cuz we all know that the rampant piracy caused the videogame industry to die out years ago
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Everyone pretty much knows about that


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## worlok375 (Jun 23, 2010)




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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

Midna said:
			
		

> If I can gather enough accounts of rape by accountants, can we say that all accountants are rapists?



Accountants' jobs don't put them in a position of power over potential victims, nor do their jobs entail living weird, sterile, "alien"-esque sexless lives.


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## Nimbus (Jun 23, 2010)

Funnily enough, I do not endorse piracy.

However, I certainly will never, ever, ever, vote for anything that this sad pathetic excuse for an administration brings to it's rotting little table.

I'm a die-hard Republican, and even if I wasn't, I still wouldn't vote for this sorry sack of BS.

Sigh...every day my hatred for this administration grows even bigger. It's already too for my heart to contain, and in time will probably be too much for my body to contain either.


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 23, 2010)

Utsuho Reiuji said:
			
		

> Funnily enough, I do not endorse piracy.
> 
> However, I certainly will never, ever, ever, vote for anything that this sad pathetic excuse for an administration brings to it's rotting little table.
> 
> I'm a die-hard Republican, and even if I wasn't, I still wouldn't vote for this sorry sack of BS.



Partisan reasons are silly justifications to be for or against anything, IMO.  You should actually think about issues prior to deciding, rather than just towing the party line.

Republicans are no better than Democrats, as they try to introduce just as many stupid, pointless bills.  They're just as much in the pocket of businesses as Democrats... the only differences are which industries they're most aligned with.  Being a "die-hard" member of either is nothing to be proud of, as it only makes you an extremist.  The fact you can actually go so far as to "hate" an administration only proves that.  Abstract entities aren't worthy of hate.


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## worlok375 (Jun 23, 2010)

So they can charge me legally in a court of law if I want to learn what a torrent is and I type "definition torrent" in google? (I occasionally take out words when I search for things) Because they THINK I was going to do something illegal?...

The prince officially declares this completely ridiculous.

Edit: WAIT! Are these new thought crimes felonies? (is piracy a felony?)


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## Magmorph (Jun 23, 2010)

worlok375 said:
			
		

> So they can charge me legally in a court of law if I want to learn what a torrent is and I type "definition torrent" in google? (I occasionally take out words when I search for things) Because they THINK I was going to do something illegal?...
> 
> The prince officially declares this completely ridiculous.


Torrent: a  stream  of  water  flowing  with  great  rapidity  and  violence.


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## Nimbus (Jun 23, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> Utsuho Reiuji said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, read the bolded statement.

Me being a die-hard republican has nothing to do with this. I could be a die-hard democrat, and guess what....my views would still remain the same.

I already hate our current pathetic excuse of a president more than anything else in the world. I hate his sorry BS administration, I hate everything about him. He shows no Re-guard for our Constitution, no regard to helping this country at all. So far everything he has done has had a negative impact on this country, why should I vote for anything he proposes.

Also, it doesn't help that tons of people fell for his brainwashing, idealistic nature either. It's partially those who voted for him who are to blame.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 23, 2010)

This Massive Piracy Crackdown is silly he has bigger fish to fry "Oil Spill" that's really something to worry about that this "Massive Piracy Crackdown: silly shit.


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## IchigoK2031 (Jun 23, 2010)

I am more democratically- biased normally, my parents voted for Obama, but I think this is just going to far...


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## iamthemilkman (Jun 23, 2010)

Democrats cracking down on spying on individuals privacy? No wai!

They're no different than the republicans. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a delusional loon. 

Party loyalists are pathetic. Same game, different name.

Hell, the democrats lost my vote due to them taking advantage of minority groups for years. The republicans lost my votes because most of them are social conservatives and neocons (nearly one in the same) these days.


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## Nimbus (Jun 23, 2010)

TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> This Massive Piracy Crackdown is silly he has bigger fish to fry "Oil Spill" that's really something to worry about that this "Massive Piracy Crackdown: silly shit.



Which just goes to show you how unorganized he and his administration is.

God....the guy can't even figure out his priorities.

I agree, this whole Massive Piracy Crackdown shouldn't even be on the list of things to worry about. The Oil Spill is the big fish here, go after it...oh wait. He's lazy, and won't go after anything unless it's handed to him on a silver platter.


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## BlueStar (Jun 23, 2010)

Well, that's the problem when you have a two party system and you only have the choice between far-right and centre right.


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## _Chaz_ (Jun 23, 2010)

iamthemilkman said:
			
		

> Democrats cracking down on spying on individuals privacy? No wai!
> 
> They're no different than the republicans. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a delusional loon.
> 
> ...


The same guy's been in office for the past 74 years.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 24, 2010)

If I were the president I would put BP into the shitter and make them go bankrupt for what they did. I would make them pay the ultimate price for Claiming Peoples Lives,Destroying the Gulf of Mexico, The Coast Lines,Businesses That had to be closed down,Wildlife,Animals, Everyone in General it's fucking sad to see this and this economy is just getting worse than ever I blame George W Bush for this part 2001-2009 for making the economy the way it is now. Also I blame BP for letting this Oil Spill happen and they're making things worse. As much hate to say this I have to blame Obama for not exploding on BP he's been to calm about this he hasn't unleashed with anger yet he needs to be an asshole about this it will get him somewhere. To add I blame Tony Hayward for being an arrogant British Piece of Shit I have noting against British People but him he's a British Piece of Shit fucking sailing on a fucking Yacht during this crisis for a fucking weekend He's just a ass kisser he's looking for forgiveness fuck him! I hope he becomes dirt poor and has to live in the streets and eat dog food!


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## Issac (Jun 24, 2010)

Overlord Nadrian said:
			
		

> Violating someone's privacy is obviously something the government has never heard of. I mean, seriously? They look at the things you type in the search bar?
> 
> Also, "_Piracy hurts, it hurts our economy_" is bullshit. Of course, a small percentage of sales is affected, but they should think "If you can't beat them, join them" just for once.* If they slightly increase the price of empty discs (CD/DVD/Blu-Ray/etc), the money loss of people pirating on a daily basis is easily solved. *Heck, they could even earn more money by doing that.



They did this in sweden several years ago... and It sucks a lot!

Why punish those who do a lot of backups or work with CD/DVD? Just because you can store pirated things on an empty media, it doesn't mean everyone's doing it! Gah drives me MAD!


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## Nimbus (Jun 24, 2010)

Issac said:
			
		

> Overlord Nadrian said:
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Exactly, why should the people who don't pirate suffer for the actions of who do.

Why must the world operate in such a manner, it shouldn't have to, yet it does.

I think I know the reason, the world has been doing it for so long, that it's been rooted into our bloodlines and our societies in general.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 24, 2010)

This makes me wonder what would our founding fathers say????


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 24, 2010)

TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> If I were the president I would put BP into the shitter and make them go bankrupt for what they did. I would make them pay the ultimate price for Claiming Peoples Lives,Destroying the Gulf of Mexico, The Coast Lines,Businesses That had to be closed down,Wildlife,Animals, Everyone in General it's fucking sad to see this and this economy is just getting worse than ever I blame George W Bush for this part 2001-2009 for making the economy the way it is now. Also I blame BP for letting this Oil Spill happen and they're making things worse. As much hate to say this I have to blame Obama for not exploding on BP he's been to calm about this he hasn't unleashed with anger yet he needs to be an asshole about this it will get him somewhere. To add I blame Tony Hayward for being an arrogant British Piece of Shit I have noting against British People but him he's a British Piece of Shit fucking sailing on a fucking Yacht during this crisis for a fucking weekend He's just a ass kisser he's looking for forgiveness fuck him! I hope he becomes dirt poor and has to live in the streets and eat dog food!



Vehement hatred solves nothing, that's why.  Why you aren't, and never will be, President yourself.  Or in politics at all, I'd imagine.  BP is already failing, and it's already putting a lot of retirees pensions on the line.  Hayward, while possibly irresponsible, isn't directly responsible.  It would've happened whether he was out sailing or behind his desk at the office... he's not one of the engineers whose job it is to keep the equipment maintained, nor is he required to be at work 24/7.

While it's a human compulsion to have something or someone to blame, it's also a very base instinct and very rarely leads to anything worthwhile.


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## Nimbus (Jun 24, 2010)

TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> This makes me wonder what would our founding fathers say????



This probably isn't accurate, but this is what I imagine they might say..




Spoiler


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## Njrg (Jun 24, 2010)

The government is anti-piracy because they're paid to be anti-piracy. I hate to sound like a conspiracy theory nut but the capitalist countries are run by big businesses and not the government. People in power are always bribed to sway their opinions and push their power.

The perfect and basic example I can use is my state's Anti-gambling laws. Gambling brings in lots of revenue and tax dollars, but why has Texas banned casinos? Thats because the businesses in Oklahoma bribe Texas officials to be against gambling. Oklahoma's Winstar Casino is like the 3rd largest casino in the world, and it's literally sitting half a mile past Texas' border on I-35. If any North Texans want to gamble, thats where they flock to. Even though its in Oklahoma, Texas' rival state, The Oklahomans are outnumbered by the Texans.

Just like that scenario, industries are bribing government to act on these antipiracy laws. In some aspects piracy has no effect on an industry. In 1999-2000 there was this whole anti-napster thing, but it turned out people downloading MP3s for free didn't affect record sales, but instead they were still thriving. Personally I think its an ego thing, there's no evidence piracy has any affect on software, music, and movie sales. Regardless of piracy, movies like Toy Story 3 and Indiana Jones 4 breaks the 100 million barrier and still sets some sort of record. Dragon Quest 9 and Pokemon (A remake no less) sell like 10 million copies. And the music industry has already found a way to work with downloaders instead of acting against them. I honestly believe that piracy is harmless and that the people who fight it need to stop spending so much to fight it, and spend more on ways to profit from it.


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## Nimbus (Jun 24, 2010)

Njrg said:
			
		

> The government is anti-piracy because they're paid to be anti-piracy. I hate to sound like a conspiracy theory nut but the capitalist countries are run by big businesses and not the government. People in power are always bribed to sway their opinions and push their power.
> 
> The perfect and basic example I can use is my state's Anti-gambling laws. Gambling brings in lots of revenue and tax dollars, but why has Texas banned casinos? Thats because the businesses in Oklahoma bribe Texas officials to be against gambling. Oklahoma's Winstar Casino is like the 3rd largest casino in the world, and it's literally sitting half a mile past Texas' border on I-35. If any North Texans want to gamble, thats where they flock to. Even though its in Oklahoma, Texas' rival state, The Oklahomans are outnumbered by the Texans.
> 
> Just like that scenario, industries are bribing government to act on these antipiracy laws. In some aspects piracy has no effect on an industry. In 1999-2000 there was this whole anti-napster thing, but it turned out people downloading MP3s for free didn't affect record sales, but instead they were still thriving. Personally I think its an ego thing, there's no evidence piracy has any affect on software, music, and movie sales. Regardless of piracy, movies like Toy Story 3 and Indiana Jones 4 breaks the 100 million barrier and still sets some sort of record. Dragon Quest 9 and Pokemon (A remake no less) sell like 10 million copies. And the music industry has already found a way to work with downloaders instead of acting against them. I honestly believe that piracy is harmless and that the people who fight it need to stop spending so much to fight it, and spend more on ways to profit from it.



This user has it all down to a fine point, and is right on the spot.

Here have a plate full of cookies.


----------



## Blebleman (Jun 24, 2010)

QUOTE said:
			
		

> Obama Administration Announces Massive Piracy Crackdown
> 
> "It's smash and grab, no different than a guy walking down Fifth Avenue and smashing the window at Tiffany's and reaching in and grabbing what's in the window." -- U.S. VP Joe Biden



Yes, yes it is different.
It's like having a cheeseburger and photocopying it for your hungry buddy.


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## Nimbus (Jun 24, 2010)

Blebleman said:
			
		

> QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If only we could do that....we'd solve the worlds hunger problems.


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## BlackDave (Jun 24, 2010)

I know for a fact that I pirate because I can't afford the games (I got many bills to pay, thank you).

And I also know I don't use torrents (I'm still not gonna be safe to lol)

Anyways I hope any of this crap won't really happen until 2020 when they have anti-piracy tracking technology


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## chrisrlink (Jun 24, 2010)

like me im on disability I only get so much per month and have to wait 2-3 months to get a new game which stinks i mean ps3 games or 360 are 60 USD a pop the economy is crap and finding an entree lv job is hard i've been looking for 3 years now so i admit turning to it (sad but true) to try out games im intrested in


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## riverchen (Jun 24, 2010)

TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> If I were the president I would put BP into the shitter and make them go bankrupt for what they did.



YOU FRICKING IDIOT. It would have a greater negative impact on the WHOLE FREAKING COUNTRY if he made BP go bankrupt, and used taxpayer's money to clean up that crap.


Also, Obama is being stupid.


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## Nimbus (Jun 24, 2010)

riverchen said:
			
		

> TrapperKeeperX said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since when is he not being stupid?


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## riverchen (Jun 24, 2010)

Well, he tried some okay stuff. Both parties are being haters tho.


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## BlackDave (Jun 24, 2010)

chrisrlink said:
			
		

> like me im on disability I only get so much per month and have to wait 2-3 months to get a new game which stinks i mean ps3 games or 360 are 60 USD a pop the economy is crap and finding an entree lv job is hard i've been looking for 3 years now so i admit turning to it (sad but true) to try out games im intrested in




There should be a balance in piracy. For example I did buy pokemon soul silver, and monster hunter tri, final fantasy XIII (xbox) because they are worth being purchased.

On the other hand I will only buy a pc game if the multiplayer online is worth it


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## DJPlace (Jun 24, 2010)

nm


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## IchigoK2031 (Jun 24, 2010)

I buy stuff, when I feel its to support an artist or company I like. Like if I want a specific artist to keep making music, I buy the album. Otherwise, I just get the rest for free. Basically, if I feel something deserves my money(I don't even have a job, so I don't have a lot) I'll buy it, otherwise...no...


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## Overlord Nadrian (Jun 24, 2010)

Utsuho Reiuji said:
			
		

> Issac said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have fun!


----------



## Rydian (Jun 24, 2010)

This is a public service announcement.

Whining online doesn't change government.
Getting out there and doing shit changes government.
Write to your local representative, run for office, or move countries.


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## Aeladya (Jun 24, 2010)

BlackDave said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that I pirate because I can't afford the games (I got many bills to pay, thank you).
> 
> And I also know I don't use torrents (I'm still not gonna be safe to lol)
> 
> Anyways I hope any of this crap won't really happen until 2020 when they have anti-piracy tracking technology




I don't use torrents either...too much of a hassle. My grandpa got his internet shut off cause my uncle was trying to download Dr. Who and it turned out to be a porno...happened to me once (the porn thing, not the internet shutting off) with a torrenty like thing...darn Case Closed and Final Fantasy 7 movie (I already owned the Japanese version, I just wanted to hear the supposed bad American voice acting. Stopped using torrent like stuff. I pirate because I'm poor (job market here sucks, especially when you can't drive, have to find a job nearby or have to walk 5 miles to the nearest bus stop) and half of the time I usually own the game and I'm just trying to make cheats for it.


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## ball2012003 (Jun 24, 2010)

The Pi said:
			
		

> You ever heard of a company who died through Piracy? Don't think so


not a company but the psp died through piracy


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## purplesludge (Jun 24, 2010)

ball2012003 said:
			
		

> The Pi said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Psp does fine when there are major releases.


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## ore0 (Jun 24, 2010)

yo dawg, so i herd you liek torrents, so i put a torrent search in your torrent so we can search your torrent searches while you search for torrents


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## HiroshiYamauchi (Jun 24, 2010)

I don't know when they are going to realise that mostly people do piracy because they can, not because they need. If the laws become too severe, people will stop pirating, but won't buy genuine content, so it won't make any difference for the industry.


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## Nimbus (Jun 24, 2010)

HiroshiYamauchi said:
			
		

> I don't know when they are going to realise that mostly people do piracy because they can, not because they need. If the laws become too severe, people will stop pirating, but won't buy genuine content, so it won't make any difference for the industry.



Actually in the case you mentioned, it would actually hurt the economy more than piracy supposedly can. Since nobody is buying legitimate content, the industries suffer, but then also suffer further because nobody will want to buy a console either with DRM locks on it.

Btw, If I may say this..



Spoiler



Fuck DRM!


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## ore0 (Jun 24, 2010)

Utsuho Reiuji said:
			
		

> Btw, If I may say this..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can't fucking curse you jackass!!! 

Im kidding


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 24, 2010)

DJPlace said:
			
		

> i hope the bush family get's wiped off from the earth for all i give a fuck about.


I want to give you a muffin basket for that comment I fucking love it!

He's the reason why were pretty much fucked!


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## Tekkin88 (Jun 24, 2010)

So they're saying that if I google 'torrent', I'm gonna get fined?

_Main Entry: 1tor·rent 
Pronunciation: \?t?r-?nt, ?tär-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin torrent-, torrens, from torrent-, torrens, adjective, burning, seething, rushing, from present participle of torr?re to parch, burn — more at thirst
Date: 1582
1 : a tumultuous outpouring : rush
2 : a violent stream of a liquid (as water or lava)
3 : a channel of a mountain stream_


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 24, 2010)

chrisrlink said:
			
		

> like me im on disability I only get so much per month and have to wait 2-3 months to get a new game which stinks i mean ps3 games or 360 are 60 USD a pop the economy is crap and finding an entree lv job is hard i've been looking for 3 years now so i admit turning to it (sad but true) to try out games im intrested in


How much do you get for Disability? I have to ask that if you can't answer that I can understand. If you do want to answer you can PM me.


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## Hakoda (Jun 24, 2010)

This is fucking ridiculous. You're going to use our tax dollars to fix piracy WHEN IT ONLY AFFECTS LIKE 2% OF SALES. OMGGG This is just pissing me off. USE THE MONEY WISELY. Use it for a more worthy cause, piracy doesn't do shit. Hopefully this will be like Bush's plans and won't mean a thing because a majority of us buy the games we pirate. They tried to this with "The Hurt Locker" but it was privately suing those who downloaded it via P2P connections. Problem with that was IP Addresses =/= people. 

I vote we all go Usenet. (Don't have it now, will eventually though)


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## SickPuppy (Jun 24, 2010)

I have one thing to say, people, Nov.4 is coming around real soon. It's time to get rid of *all* of the democrats that hold seats in the senate and in the house. I have no doubt that a lot of democrats will lose their seats anyways, but none the less, we can make sure of it if all of you get out and vote.


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## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Jun 24, 2010)

Understandably, many are angry over this issue. This so-called crackdown is an open assault on democratic rights. However, I think some are giving Obama too much credit. To believe, as some inevitably do, that he or his policies are merely incompetent is unsupported. A big business politician of his level (which can perhaps be found in the local sewer) is only showing his allegiance and complicity with the bourgeois industrial powers. Thus, the Orwellian character of this measure is _deliberate_. The US state has so far been unsuccessful with controlling the internet, and are now deploying a type of digital police now that DRM's impotence has been exposed. 

I'm not convinced that this will end here. The hacking/homebrew community will surely be targeted using methods borrowed from the PATRIOT Act. Obama has now declared war against US citizens.


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## basf11214 (Jun 24, 2010)

I remember photocopying the textbooks in my university's library because I was too poor to buy them.  Stopping me from photocopying the books wasn't going to make me want to buy them.  I'd probably just check them out repeatedly from the library.

The same can be said of online piracy.  If I was a pirate and I was going to buy the damn thing, I would have done so eventually/already.  Stopping me from pirating isn't going to make me want to buy it.  I'd probably just do something else with the time I have (like studying or working) or borrow whatever-it-is from my friends.  So I'm really dubious of the claim that there is even 2% of sales being affected here.

Whatever the truth may be, I am sure that this new anti-piracy crackdown will neither erase piracy nor boost sales in any significant amount.  If these companies are in trouble, it's because they have a shitty business model, not because pirates are choking their revenue streams.


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## fst312 (Jun 24, 2010)

http://americas-soapbox.msn.com/?from=en-u...f7-c425d6783c57

if you go to that link i just posted it looks like Obama wants to shut down the internet.


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## Prophet (Jun 24, 2010)

I like free shit just as much as the next guy and I really can't imagine that there are people who pirate more than I do, but with that being said... What exactly is everyone getting so worked up about? I mean we do understand that morally there is no justification for the theft of luxury items (Games, Movies, Songs etc) and piracy is theft, right? The argument that that government is encroaching on our freedom to do what we will with the products we own, is asinine. Upon purchasing a protected media you agree to the terms, namely you will not duplicate the media. Those terms are clear. If you don't like the terms you don't have to enter into the agreement; simply don't buy it. If we were talking about essential shit then we could have a intelligent conversation about this, but the fact remains you don't need to hear that new album or play that new game. There is nothing noble about piracy, no matter how much you romanticize in your own head. We are thieves, lets at least be honest with ourselves about that.

I will say this though; piracy is ubiquitous. Save for God himself parting the clouds and placing a plague upon all who pirate, piracy will never end. So you all can revel in that I suppose, just stop deluding yourselves with the justifications of children.


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## worlok375 (Jun 24, 2010)

..........Thought I was in another thread, didn't mean to post here.


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## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Jun 24, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> I like free shit just as much as the next guy and I really can't imagine that there are people who pirate more than I do, but with that being said... What exactly is everyone getting so worked up about? I mean we do understand that morally there is no justification for the theft of luxury items (Games, Movies, Songs etc) and piracy is theft, right? The argument that that government is encroaching on our freedom to do what we will with the products we own, is asinine. Upon purchasing a protected media you agree to the terms, namely you will not duplicate the media. Those terms are clear. If you don't like the terms you don't have to enter into the agreement; simply don't buy it. If we were talking about essential shit then we could have a intelligent conversation about this, but the fact remains you don't need to hear that new album or play that new game. There is nothing noble about piracy, no matter how much you romanticize in your own head. We are thieves, lets at least be honest with ourselves about that.
> 
> I will say this though; piracy is ubiquitous. Save for God himself parting the clouds and placing a plague upon all who pirate, piracy will never end. So you all can revel in that I suppose, just stop deluding yourselves with the justifications of children.



No moral justification for the "theft" of luxury items? Your argument rests upon the assumption that the masses hold the lion's share of purchasing power in the world economy today, and that the abuse of such power is 'immoral.' This would be a solid stance, were it not for the fact that it doesn't match present or even past situations. The economic failures can be traced directly to the very financial magnates who the current administration has bailed out, and allowed to rake in record bonuses topping previous years. The advent of DRM and similar measures for digital media attest to this reality. Why would the group with superior market control ask for such measures? Perhaps Halliburton and Ford's situations wasn't enough of an advance alert in this regard. No matter.

Ultimately, for the crimes of this wealthy milieu, their debts are forced onto the backs of the masses, and furthermore, their health care is being whored out to private insurance companies who almost give no guarantees of quality. Are these exploiters not "thieves" as you stated? Why then do you cast the masses into the same camp as they, when the so-called "balance of power" touted by the media is essentially an oxymoron? You seem to be arguing in favor of the oppressors, and in one fell swoop, hold their victims responsible since inevitably they resort to shadier means under such conditions.

Your argument is to "simply don't buy it," because the "fact remains you don't need to hear that new album or play that new game." Who are you to dictate such terms? Whether they "need" it or not is immaterial. Perhaps piracy cannot be justified, or "romanticized", as you say. Regardless, digital piracy has a source, and it lies in the incrementally increasing cost of a decent standard of living, which the masses don't get to decide. The perpetrators of this hypocrisy are to blame because they brazenly created the conditions for digital piracy. For you to simply tar-brush those who pirate only demonstrates how your interpretation doesn't go beyond that of a mole's spectacles.


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## vhunter (Jun 24, 2010)

basf11214 said:
			
		

> I remember photocopying the textbooks in my university's library because I was too poor to buy them.  Stopping me from photocopying the books wasn't going to make me want to buy them.  I'd probably just check them out repeatedly from the library.
> 
> The same can be said of online piracy.  If I was a pirate and I was going to buy the damn thing, I would have done so eventually/already.  Stopping me from pirating isn't going to make me want to buy it.  I'd probably just do something else with the time I have (like studying or working) or borrow whatever-it-is from my friends.  So I'm really dubious of the claim that there is even 2% of sales being affected here.
> 
> Whatever the truth may be, I am sure that this new anti-piracy crackdown will neither erase piracy nor boost sales in any significant amount.  If these companies are in trouble, it's because they have a shitty business model, not because pirates are choking their revenue streams.



This is what I think, I would never buy any of the pc games I have gotten through piracy. I'm actually to young to even get a job but even so I wouldn't waste my money some half-assed games. I understand normal means of anti piracy protection, such as "no cd key no online" but accusing us of crap before anything really being done, that's just moronic. I'm sure that even less than 2% would actually buy the game if it wasn't for piracy, specially considering that you'll support the companies you like.


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## Nimbus (Jun 24, 2010)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
			
		

> Prophet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude, you said it. Right on the spot.

God, you even lost me poor Okku in the process. It's bad enough I already have a birdbrained nature.


----------



## Rydian (Jun 24, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> and piracy is theft, right?


No.
If I take a $50 bill from some old lady, I have deprived her of $50, I have wronged her.
If I download an MP3 from somebody else through a P2P network, their MP3 is left alone.  I have not deprived them of anything.


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## Prophet (Jun 24, 2010)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
			
		

> No moral justification for the "theft" of luxury items? Your argument rests upon the assumption that the masses hold the lion's share of purchasing power in the world economy today, and that the abuse of such power is 'immoral.' This would be a solid stance, were it not for the fact that it doesn't match present or even past situations. The economic failures can be traced directly to the very financial magnates who the current administration has bailed out, and allowed to rake in record bonuses topping previous years. The advent of DRM and similar measures for digital media attest to this reality. Why would the group with superior market control ask for such measures? Perhaps Halliburton and Ford's situations wasn't enough of an advance alert in this regard. No matter.
> 
> Ultimately, for the crimes of this wealthy milieu, their debts are forced onto the backs of the masses, and furthermore, their health care is being whored out to private insurance companies who almost give no guarantees of quality. Are these exploiters not "thieves" as you stated? Why then do you cast the masses into the same camp as they, when the so-called "balance of power" touted by the media is essentially an oxymoron? You seem to be arguing in favor of the oppressors, and in one fell swoop, hold their victims responsible since inevitably they resort to shadier means under such conditions.
> 
> ...



Do you really believe that?

Let's say you own a home and in this home there is an empty room that you do not use. Now let's say I decide to move into that room without your consent. When you saw me moving in you would likely object and I would quote your very own sentiment, “I have not deprived you of anything.” It's not like you were using the room anyway right?

This idea is in opposition to the concept of private property and what I am depriving you of is your right to private property. What a person owns is theirs and we cannot simply decide to do what you will with it under the guise that our interactions with the property will not deprive them of also using it. Furthermore, what if you had been looking to rent the room prior to me moving in? You could argue that I am depriving you of the profit you would have otherwise collected. I know, I know, everyone says piracy doesn't affect sales “I wasn't going to buy the album _either_ way” But what if you had a house with a multitude of rooms and you wanted to rent them out. How else could you justify charging the other tenants rent when I was staying there rent free, unless you prosecuted me?

What you have to understand is that these mediums belong to the respective companies. If you do not like the idea of buying something you cannot legally duplicate, do not buy it. If you do not like a system built around the idea of private property, disengage from it. Socialism FTW?


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## Midna (Jun 24, 2010)

Do you guys do anything but write on forums all day? What are you _accomplishing_? Do you really believe that you're going to convince the other party to adopt your views?

Edit: Excuse any mistakes. iPhone spellcheck blows.


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## Rydian (Jun 24, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> *Edit: *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As in, it's not modified.
It's a totally different scenario than somebody moving into your home, which is an invasion of privacy and modifies your home (the object in question.
Downloading an MP3 off a P2P network neither invades your privacy nor modifies the original MP3.

Piracy is not theft.  This can be seen if you'd actually look at any of the court cases involved (I.E. do a little damn research on a subject you _try_ to talk about).  They're not under criminal law (where theft is), they're under civil law (as copyright infringement), not theft.


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## BoxShot (Jun 24, 2010)

We have more important things to do then crack down on people who download things. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Spoiler



Fuck DRM!


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## girugamarc (Jun 24, 2010)

ball2012003 said:
			
		

> The Pi said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, the DS killed PSP

I don't use torrents, at all. I direct download. Is that slightly more safe than torrents? Or am I equally as screwed as a torrent abuser?


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## GreatZimkogway (Jun 24, 2010)

*Sighs* HTC's bitching too.  Can someone buy me a ticket out of the US?  I'm right sick of this hellhole.  All it is now is the corporations' playground, and we're becoming the test-dummys.    Emphassis on dummies for many people...


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## Maz7006 (Jun 24, 2010)

Doubt they could care less here about piracy

heck the power doesn't even come 24 hours a day let alone to worry about piracy issues.


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## gisel213 (Jun 24, 2010)

The fact that like 100% of everything used for piracy is legally bought is what these MPAA
RIAA and corrupt govt officials fail to see it's a losing batlle and they will never win!!!!


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## BlueStar (Jun 24, 2010)

SickPuppy said:
			
		

> I have one thing to say, people, Nov.4 is coming around real soon. It's time to get rid of *all* of the democrats that hold seats in the senate and in the house. I have no doubt that a lot of democrats will lose their seats anyways, but none the less, we can make sure of it if all of you get out and vote.


That's a bit like saying you want to vote out all the republicans because they're not pro-life enough.


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 24, 2010)

SickPuppy said:
			
		

> I have one thing to say, people, Nov.4 is coming around real soon. It's time to get rid of *all* of the democrats that hold seats in the senate and in the house. I have no doubt that a lot of democrats will lose their seats anyways, but none the less, we can make sure of it if all of you get out and vote.



However, Republicans are no better... they're just as much corporate sell-outs as any other large political party.  And I imagine they probably have even less regard for consumer rights than the Democrats, who are simply too spineless to stand up for any issue.

Have you seen the Texas GOP platform, recently?  I've got paper airplanes that fly backwards that make it further than most crap spouted by the GOP.  You'd be trading spineless cowards for draconian, hypocritical fascists.


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## Veho (Jun 24, 2010)

girugamarc said:
			
		

> ball2012003 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Last time i checked, the PSP was alive and well.


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## TrapperKeeperX (Jun 24, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> SickPuppy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm going to say this about these fucking hateful inferior human beings they need to die!" Texas GOP Platform Advocates Criminalizing Gay Marriage, Banning Strip Clubs, Pornography " Texas is nothing but a bunch of Wife Beating,Inbred Sister/Cousin Fucking,White Trash,Whitewashed Religious Christians/Southern Baptist,Self Righteous,Ignorant,Close Minded,Corrupted, Bastards! I know that was long but I'm being very serious They need to be wiped off the face of the Earth and you know what they're the ones getting lap dances having gay sex & watching porn! Which I will not doubt for a second. I'm embarrassed that I live in a country with a bunch of Wife Beating,Inbred Sister/Cousin Fucking,White Trash,Whitewashed Religious Christians/Southern Baptist,Self Righteous,Ignorant,Close Minded,Corrupted, Bastards! It's that embarrassing.


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## Deleted-247497 (Jun 24, 2010)

I really liked obama so this is extremely disappointing to me, after the healthcare passing it seemed like he was the best prez ever, but now.....well all i can say is thank god for those damn repubicans rejecting everything he says.

edit:




			
				TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> TM2-Megatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey man I live in Texas (not really texan, moms mexican dads german) Yes 90% of people here are whitebread, Christian republicans, but damn most of them really aren't that bad. This is coming from an atheist democrat. I know there are alot of people like what you described here but really? You want to wipe all Texans off the earth? You need to chill man.


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## junn (Jun 24, 2010)

Rydian said:
			
		

> And the very first line proves they don't know shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you mean like this guide.


Spoiler


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## referencer (Jun 24, 2010)

Hope and pocket change.



			
				Prophet said:
			
		

> Do you really believe that?
> 
> Let's say you own a home and in this home there is an empty room that you do not use. Now let's say I decide to move into that room without your consent. When you saw me moving in you would likely object and I would quote your very own sentiment, “I have not deprived you of anything.” It's not like you were using the room anyway right?


And you would be a fuckhead, because you are both depriving me of the ability to use that room and the ability to not have to put up with a jackass moving into my house, and a pile of other things I don't want to bother explaining.
If you built your own room from scratch designed exactly like my spare room down to the atomic structure and then moved into it, pretending it was mine, you would have a relevant analogy. Let's extend that:

Assuming that recreating rooms exactly like this was easily possible and very commonplace, would the fault for "losing profits" be on the hand of the people who copy rooms, or the people who are trying to monetize room designs in a world where it is both easily possible to attain the design without a designer's consent and entirely implausible to enforce rules about what can and can't be recreated without infringing on people's rights?

Digital "property" cannot possibly be defined in the same manner as physical property. You can't make exact copies of physical property without significant effort and loss of other physical materials, you can't take physical property for your own without depriving someone else of it, you can't transfer physical property without physical space, you can't create physical property by shifting ones and zeroes back and forth until they do something. None of these problems exist with digital "property," and yet we're attempting to legislate it based on the paradigms we've developed because of the limitations of _physical_ property. We're trying to dictate what's moral or not based on limitations that do not actually exist.

The digital era has broken the rules. People have discovered that they can just use their own devices to boil the salt out of oceanwater instead of buying all their water from X Corp, and X Corp in retaliation has attempted to outlaw the production of materials in any shape that can potentially be used to boil water. People have realized that they don't have to purchase what there is an infinite supply of freely available, so they're stopping, even though X Corp put so much work into designing a specifically efficient manner of boiling water thinking that they were the only provider.

If you can't make a profit without criminalizing 90% of the populace, then _you can't make a profit_, too bad, you had your day, go home. We would clearly be better off without you.


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## _Chaz_ (Jun 24, 2010)

The Obama administration's been nothing but a let down since day one.

He promised change and hope for a better tomorrow, gave us something to want and believe in.

It's now tomorrow and we still have a war in the Middle East and a whole slew of other problems on top of that.
I know that his job isn't the easiest, but when do we start seeing progress?

When is the change? Where is the hope?


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## popopola (Jun 24, 2010)

_Chaz_ said:
			
		

> The Obama administration's been nothing but a let down since day one.
> 
> He promised change and hope for a better tomorrow, gave us something to want and believe in.
> 
> ...



I don't think changes like those can happen overnight


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## Deleted-247497 (Jun 24, 2010)

referencer said:
			
		

> Hope and pocket change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Although this is a valid point, what if X Corp was every game/movie/software/everything designer. What if they do decide to just quit. Without SOME form of copyright laws everyone would get everything for free, but then the people who actually create the content would have to stop making it and get a job that would earn them money. I do think some drm is necessary to protect companies' profits, but I also think its completely rediculous to criminalize people who break that drm. These companies need to fight their own battles, the government should have nothing to do with this, thats capitalism. I mean heck, half the time theres piracy is because companies don't offer things like game demos. Also things like hulu help combat piracy because people no longer feel the need to pirate because they can get the content for free anyway, while still benefiting the company.


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## Omega_2 (Jun 24, 2010)

Rydian said:
			
		

> And the very first line proves they don't know shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^This.
Add in the corruption that is called Big Business that controls the government and you're about caught up


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

TrapperKeeperX said:
			
		

> TM2-Megatron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why is it okay to say something racist against whites? To even hint about something that may generalize a minority is the ultimate taboo, yet white, Christian/Jew, male, straight is fair game. Equality must be equal. Please try and realize that when going after one group is acceptable, it can equally become exceptable to go after another. What happens if the Republicans get back in, and in the next 10 years the decide being gay, a minority, or left leaning is a punishable offense? The pendulum can swing both ways which is why equality across the board is important. Liberals are no longer liberals. They used to fight for free speech, equality, and freedom. They used to fight "the man". Now they are the man and somehow don't realize they are the exact opposite of what they think they are. It is very scary.


Anyway with the Obama legislation, I think nobody here should be surprised. They have been trying to make the internet a government controlled entity. Our rights and freedoms have never been in jeopardy as they are now. The news media is gone, equality is on its way out, freedom is dying. IMO we lost the cold war November '08. Communism is here, and we are all now seeing the effects. And damn the Republicans and McCain for pandering and trying to get the middle/left vote. And I hope all the US citizens that went out to vote without any any research, understanding, or looking at past affiliations take a good hard look at the outcome. November is coming. Which ever way you guys vote, all I ask is that you do not show up to the ballot box without being as informed as possible. Do not trust the media as they are as guilty now as the politicians themselves. Do not vote with your feelings, vote with your intelligence.


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## George Dawes (Jun 24, 2010)

"communism is here"?  in the usa?

LOL!

If only they could manage socialism, the country wouldn't be such a mess.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

George Dawes said:
			
		

> "communism is here"?  in the usa?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> If only they could manage socialism, the country wouldn't be such a mess.



Socialism is the mess. As it has been for any other country that attempted it. And as the Marxist teachings suggest, it is the inevitable bridge to Communism. If you would like to be a socialist, you must study and learn its roots. I have yet to meet a socialist that truly understands its origins and intent. Like I said, very scary.


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## Pliskron (Jun 24, 2010)

Obama is a corporatist who hates free speech. Wait till be cracks down on the rest of the internet.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

George Dawes said:
			
		

> "communism is here"?  in the usa?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> If only they could manage socialism, the country wouldn't be such a mess.



The only succesfull management of socialism was the National Socialists (NAZIs). They had the most efficient economy in history. But look back and see what was lost to do so. Freedom. Socialism must be enforced by force in order to work. And even then it may fail as the Soviet Union did. Or it can also barely hang on as China and North Korea are. Europe is being hit hard by the fast decline as well. Ask Greece how socialism is working out for them.

And yes, I will chill on the politics. But I think it is directly related to the original post. It is the why and how that brought this new legislation.


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## BlueStar (Jun 24, 2010)

Uh, what?  Fierce protection of the intellectual property of private sector companies is communist now?  If Obama was communist he'd decide that all art (films, music, games etc) belonged to the people and the US would have the rampant and unchecked piracy of media and designs that you see in communist China.

More anti-piracy legislation = moving in the direction of capitalism
Less anti-piracy legislation = moving in the direction of communism


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> Uh, what?  Fierce protection of the intellectual property laws of private sector companies is communist now?  If Obama was communist he'd decide that all art (films, music, games etc) belonged to the people and the US would have the rampant and unchecked piracy of media and designs that you see in communist China.
> 
> More anti-piracy legislation = moving in the direction of capitalism
> Less anti-piracy legislation = moving in the direction of communism



It is not about about the piracy itself. It is about control of the intenet content. Take note that they will now be able to monitor searches and browsing. And they will be able to prosecute what they see fit. He does not care about big companes loosing profits. A judge ruled that sites like Bittorrent could not be policed by the government. It was ruled that it was against free speech. Obama is going around this and trying to make the internet a government run utility, giving him the right to dictate what he wants to be on it. The Fairness Act is the objective, not stopping piracy.


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## jalaneme (Jun 24, 2010)

in this day and age you don't have any freedom, everything you do is controlled.


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## BlueStar (Jun 24, 2010)

There is nothing that Obama has done in terms of the internet and piracy which was not also being pursued by the Bush administration.  For both this administration and the last the problem has been that Obama and Bush are both far too staunch in their support of private big business.  When your problem with Obama is that he's being too right wing in his support for big business, the answer to that is not to vote for a far right party like the GOP.

Also, National Socialists are socialists in the same way that the People's Democratic Republic of Korea is a democracy.


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## Magmorph (Jun 24, 2010)

luckwii said:
			
		

> George Dawes said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How is China barley hanging on? America's debt to them is hundreds of billions of dollars.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> There is nothing that Obama has done in terms of the internet and piracy which was not also being pursued by the Bush administration.  For both this administration and the last the problem has been that Obama and Bush are both far too staunch in their support of private big business.  When your problem with Obama is that he's being too right wing in his support for big business, the answer to that is not to vote for a far right party like the GOP.



I agree this is not only derived from the bowels of Obama. And I also agree, a vote for the Republicans is not a valid solution.


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## BlueStar (Jun 24, 2010)

Control of the media is not a right vs left thing anyway.  It's an 'up vs down' totalitarian vs libertarian thing.  You see people on the right wanting to ban plays about Jesus being gay just like you see people on the left wanting to ban racist hate sites.


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## George Dawes (Jun 24, 2010)

BlueStar said:
			
		

> More anti-piracy legislation = moving in the direction of capitalism
> Less anti-piracy legislation = moving in the direction of communism
> But the type who see "reds under the bed" like to claim everything is the fault of communism.  Even the things caused by the massive flaws in the capitalist economic system.
> 
> ...


The NSDAP (or NAZIs if you prefer) weren't in any way socialist.  Quite the opposite, they were a fascist party.

Communists/socialists/anarchists were interned and murdered by the nazis, just like the jewish, gay and romany/travellers.  They got a red triangle to mark them as "political prisoners".

I find it quite offensive that you claim they were socialist.


You have absolutely no clue what is going on in europe - most of europe has higher standards of living for the poorest, the lowest differential between the highest paid and the lowest paid.  Free healthcare at the point of delivery in the vast majority of countries.

Basically a fairer place to live for all.  Yeah, ask a euro how well it is going.  Then ask a american on minimum wage who can't even afford to goto the doc to be looked after.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

George Dawes said:
			
		

> BlueStar said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry to offend you but, yes, the NAZIs were the National Socialist party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism


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## BlueStar (Jun 24, 2010)

Go on Stormfront and ask some neo-nazis what they think of socialist or communist 'reds'.


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## Magmorph (Jun 24, 2010)

luckwii said:
			
		

> Sorry to offend you but, yes, the NAZIs were the National Socialist party.


Just because they are named the National Socialist Party doesn't mean they actually were socialists.


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## BlueStar (Jun 24, 2010)

Magmorph said:
			
		

> luckwii said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like I say, you might as well say that democracy is evil because Kim Jong Il runs the People's Democratic Republic of Korea.

The bedrock of socialism, misguided as it may or may not be, is total and even enforced equality.  That's why communist militias have so many female soldiers, why communism is said to stifle exceptional entrepreneurs, why under communism you can't make yourself a millionaire while someone down the street has nothing because they aren't as motivated, talented or lucky.  Hitler believed the opposite, that some people were inferior and some people were superior.  

Tha'ts why socialists and communists were murdered by the Nazis, why the Third Reich ended up in such a vicious war with Stalin's Russia.

Of course some of Hitler's economic policies lent towards socialism but that was simply because it was the easiest way to enforce his far-right social policies (And last I heard it wasn't his economic polices that people had a problem with).  You see similar from the right in the US when it comes to immigration.  Their right-leaning on things like free trade, lack of regulation of business and the free market is over-ruled by their dislike of immigration, and hence they support socialist-style control of the labour market to combat it.  True capitalism would just allow 'self-regulation' and supply and demand.  If business can get Mexicans to work for next to nothing, then a real free market would let them.


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## George Dawes (Jun 24, 2010)

luckwii said:
			
		

> Sorry to offend you but, yes, the NAZIs were the National Socialist party.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
> From your own link:
> 
> ...


Laissez-Faire capitalism does allow it - globalisation allows corporations in a wealthy western country to outsource to a cheap asian/african nation where worker/human rights pretty much don't exist.

Capitalism is all about wealth (and the wealthy) knowing no borders, but those less fortunate are forced to live where they are born.


To answer "china hanging on" from earlier -china is a state-capitalist nation, not communist.  For a large period of the CCCPs history the same was true.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

And from my own link;

*They declared support for a nationalist form of socialism that was to provide for the Aryan race and the German nation: economic security, social welfare programs for workers, a just wage, honour for workers' importance to the nation, and protection from capitalist exploitation*


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## BlueStar (Jun 24, 2010)

A bit like saying "A form of capitalism where the government controls industry", a form of socialism where the most basic factor of the socialist ideal is turned completely on its head.


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## caster62003 (Jun 24, 2010)

You know what makes me chuckle, this thread all started by somebody who does not live in America, or at least his/her flag shows that, and then the first 5 or so pages are mainly flags outside America, then the last 4 or so pages are flooded with American flags, with some others scattered about. Why is it that we Americans need other people who are not really affected by this, needs to share this with us lazy Americans who cannot find this out for ourselves? We really need to start paying attention to the news, and stop playing our video games so much, this may help in lowering the pirating rate, as we will have something better to do than playing video games for 24+ hours straight, and needing a new game every 2 days, thus eliminating our funds, thus making us think we don't have money to buy games, thus making us look to download stuff, thus making something like this bill occurring over and over again. Wow, everything can go back to us being lazy and not having a life outside of video games.

Please note: I did use words to group myself in the group of being a lazy American, and for this, I believe I am going to change my ways, and see what happens, could be interesting. 

**FLAMESHIELD INITIALIZED**

PS: I bet at least one person is looking at all 10 or so pages right now looking at all the flags I mentioned 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





**FLAMESHIELD STILL ON**


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## George Dawes (Jun 24, 2010)

lets go back to the bit (of your link) that says:

_Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies; in practice, Nazism was a far right form of politics_

They declared for support of lots of things, in practice they were very different to what the theory promised.


I don't think there is any point trying to convince you, if you believe that the nsdap were socialist/communist then there is no helping you, but let us try:


			
				QUOTE said:
			
		

> In 1919 Anton Drexler, Gottfried Feder and Dietrich Eckart formed the German Worker's Party (GPW) in Munich. *The German Army was worried that it was a left-wing revolutionary group and sent Adolf Hitler, one of its education officers, to spy on the organization.* Hitler discovered that the party's political ideas were similar to his own. He approved of Drexler's German nationalism and anti-Semitism but was unimpressed with the way the party was organized. Although there as a spy, Hitler could not restrain himself when a member made a point he disagreed with, and he stood up and made a passionate speech on the subject.
> 
> Anton Drexler was impressed with Hitler's abilities as an orator and invited him to join the party. At first Hitler was reluctant, but urged on by his commanding officer, Captain Karl Mayr, he eventually agreed. He was only the fifty-fourth person to join the German Worker's Party. Hitler was immediately asked to join the executive committee and was later appointed the party's propaganda manager.
> 
> ...


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## Prophet (Jun 24, 2010)

referencer said:
			
		

> Hope and pocket change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes the thieves are the victims, proverbial revolutionaries fighting for free... music. Right.

Whether my property is digital or physical, I set the terms of use. There is no basis for you to just move into the home I own, any more so than simply download the product I produce. What no one has tackled, becuase i assume it is an arguement without flaw, is the simple fact: When you purchase digital media you enter into an agreement that you will not duplicate the media. Game over. Thats it. If you don't like the terms you don't purchase it. If you do purchase it and decide to duplicate it you break these terms and in turn subjegate the property rights of the company.


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## meornot0 (Jun 24, 2010)

All i can say, is this is what we get when people listen to stuff they don't understand and still vote, and then vote for the "cool" candidate rather than the most qualified.  You reap what you sow.(A horrid administration.)


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## MFDC12 (Jun 24, 2010)

luckwii said:
			
		

> George Dawes said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you know the us has socialism in our government, right. i mean, before obama?

the post office? i dont think you are against that

not to mention the fire dept, police, libraries, etc


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## Deleted-247497 (Jun 24, 2010)

meornot0 said:
			
		

> All i can say, is this is what we get when people listen to stuff they don't understand and still vote, and then vote for the "cool" candidate rather than the most qualified.  You reap what you sow.(A horrid administration.)



hmmm which voters were the ones voting for sarah palin again??


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## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Jun 24, 2010)

At this time, I'm convinced it is ill-advised to judge a political party simply based on what they say about themselves. The character of a political party can only be judged on their political and historical origins, as well as the future actions of the party itself. Once the origin is deduced, the class interests that they serve largely become clear. 

The National Socialist party, for example, can be properly judged according to this criteria. They were initially right-wing fringe agitators deriving their racial ideology from a nineteenth century count named Gobineau. Hitler himself, before his party became a political force in its own right served exactly this social function. They were essentially a gang of thugs among others, trained to fight the organized worker's parties. Their principal source of income (needed to sustain themselves) came from the heavy industrialists; from this it flows that _the Nazi party was enabled and helped to power by capitalist big business,_ who had to make large concessions to their workers in the aftermath of the First World War (and wished to take said concessions back). In their psychological manipulation of the masses, they attempted to transmute the anti-capitalism of the masses into antisemitism, and used this brew to great effect. In several speeches, Hitler made no bones about his opposition to Marxism. But he and his party did not simply say this. They executed and murdered several prominent worker's leaders to terrorize and divide the class amongst themselves. Despite these methods, Hitler did not even win a significant portion of the electorate. His coming to power had been decided a few days before between the reformist von Papen and Hitler himself, in the home of a banker with significant ties to heavy industry. He won the chancellorship through "legal" installation. The evidence dictates that Hitler's party was anything but socialist. Their origins and their actions were not in service of the masses or the workers, but in the preservation of German imperialism. 

I imagine this topic was brought up to somehow illuminate Obama's so-called "socialist" policies. Just as the class interests of Nazism can be exposed, so can Obama's administration. When the economic collapse was finally acknowledged in the press, Obama made the deliberate move of "bailing out" the very social class responsible for the disaster: the capitalist bourgeoisie. Despite the socialist rhetoric, his health care "reform" strengthens the hegemony of private insurance companies. US citizens will only be _required_ to possess health insurance, and those that do not will be charged for every month they are without it. How is there anything universal or communist about such a policy? A socialist would also not place his influence into the manufacturing of unmanned predator drones or extend a blatantly imperialist war beyond the borders of other Eastern countries. Obama is operating in the interests of the capitalists, not the working class. Such unsupported smears and ignorance claiming otherwise do a disservice to critical thought.

Edit: context in first paragraph
Edit II: Mr. Dawes, I only wished to expand on what you said a couple of posts ago.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

snico1995 said:
			
		

> meornot0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And what is wrong with Sarah Palin? Is she dumb because Saturday Night Live says so? MSNBC? Joe Biden has had a lot more big dummy moments that Palin. Obama has looked dumb in all 57 states. It is funny how the liberals have now become sexist, racist, and oppresors of free speech. Whether you like Sarah or not, she has had a lot more experience that Obama. The Republicans have a lot of waking up to do, but nothing compared to the liberal Democrats. I am afraid the only way they will wake up is absolute catastrophe. But I have news for you, the rest of us do not want to go down with the ship.


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## Deleted-247497 (Jun 24, 2010)

luckwii said:
			
		

> snico1995 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



....no shes dumb because shes completely unqualified, talks like a moron, and was put on the ballot to win the woman/right wing conservative christian vote.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
			
		

> I imagine this topic was brought up to somehow illuminate Obama's so-called "socialist" policies. Just as the class interests of Nazism can be exposed, so can Obama's administration. When the economic collapse was finally acknowledged in the press, Obama made the deliberate move of "bailing out" the very social class responsible for the disaster: the capitalist bourgeoisie. Despite the socialist rhetoric, his health care "reform" strengthens the hegemony of private insurance companies. US citizens will only be _required_ to possess health insurance, and those that do not will be charged for every month they are without it. How is there anything universal or communist about such a policy? A socialist would also not place his influence into the manufacturing of unmanned predator drones or extend a blatantly imperialist war beyond the borders of other Eastern countries. Obama is operating in the interests of the capitalists, not the working class. Such unsupported smears and ignorance claiming otherwise do a disservice to critical thought.
> 
> Edit: context in first paragraph
> Edit II: Mr. Dawes, I only wished to expand on what you said a couple of posts ago.



Actually it was government mandate that led to the collapse. We were not in a free capitalist market.

Why is it then that our economy thrived in the capitalist years, and since the onset of socialism our market has suffered. This has been going on since before Obama, yet Obama has driven us off the cliff.

Obama's "so called" socialism has been expressed by he himself throughout his life. As have many of his appointees.

This is going nowhere. I think my best arguement will come later down the road as my points will be illustrated in real life. This post will still be here then. We can reflect back in a year or so and have a laugh. As they say, only time will tell.

You liberals had all these brilliant arguements and abstract views of history before the election. By now we should all be hope and changing into eutopian bliss. The grass should be greener, the sky more blue, and the "war for oil" should be over. And don't forget the bipartisan, transparent administration. The problem is Obama lived out his life fighting "the man". Now that he is "the man" has no freakin clue what to do. This is why he still blames Bush for everything. He has no experience, no answers, and no plan. And now he must fall back on what he knows. His black liberation theology, his marxist teachings, and his hatred of capitalist USofA.


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 24, 2010)

luckwii said:
			
		

> Actually it was government mandate that led to the collapse. We were not in a free capitalist market.
> 
> Why is it then that our economy thrived in the capitalist years, and since the onset of socialism our market has suffered. This has been going on since before Obama, yet Obama has driven us off the cliff.
> 
> ...



Canada faired better than the US through the economic troubles, in part due to our Government's (moderately) greater regulation of the banking industry, etc.  America had _too_ little regulation (whatever you might want to claim)... pure capitalism, a completely free and unregulated market, will never work... anywhere... period.  Pure socialism, as well, similarly would never really work on a long-term basis.  Until some better system is devised, the best path is a mix of both.  The government needs to set limits on certain industries, and the government does need to provide certain services... without government services, society would collapse in on itself.  Most people have no idea how far it extends, and how difficult it would be to have such things provided by a corporation, of all things.  Big business answers to nobody, and they'll gladly screw people over even more than a government will.  At least governments can be changed... a sufficiently powerful business is virtually untouchable.

Anyway, this thread is about digital copyright, isn't it?


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## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Jun 24, 2010)

Mr. luckwii, I implore you not to insult my intelligence, or your own. 

You completely missed the point of my last post, which is that political parties and ideologues can rarely be judged fully on the weight of their own words. Certainly their own words can provide significant clues about themselves. Hitler's infamous Mein Kampf was an expression of congealed right-wing hysteria, stemming from the recognition that German capitalist economy was in trouble and the Versailles treaty made its expansion all but impossible. But even in this example, Hitler's own words damn him. Obama's words, treated in the context of his social function and interests play a similar role.

I won't deny that the Obama administration has on several occasions played with extreme left-wing rhetoric, bringing FOX news to declare that he is a "closet socialist". Such claims were even then unsubstantiated, because Obama was prepped and groomed by the bougeois "left", among them Warren Buffet. Naturally, aware of social unrest, Obama was chosen precisely because his face and campaign was being constantly marketed as sensitive to the needs of the poor masses. This would explain the voter turnout of the last election. His "appointees" have expressed similar ploys, but their political records also expose them as being tools of Wall Street's capitalism. Paul Volcker is only the tip of the iceberg in this regard.

As to the claim that we are not living in a "free capitalist market," I must admit I don't understand your point. I imagine you may wish to make the case that Roosevelt's New Deal policies were "socialist," or whatever label you wish to give it. The New Deal was an exercise of reformism, and necessarily had to impede upon big business because social unrest was almost at a fever pitch. Even after the New Deal, its embrace of the War economy essentially left the foundations of American capitalism untouched. Even the New Deal reforms were too much for the wealthy; they have spent the past several decades repealing them and disintegrating what is left of the American worker's movement. These moves culminated into yet another financial disaster due to this treachery. For big business to dictate the mobilization of the means of production is exactly what "free market" capitalism comes down to. It ultimately collapses into competition between monopolies. I also don't know what this "mandate" is that you speak of. The evidence dictates that social forces behind Wall Street and their cronies are responsible for the present disaster.

Edit: It seems you changed your post to call me a "you liberal". The allegations you make toward Obama are nothing more than right-wing smears peddled and copied from Rush Limbaugh and the like. Black theology? In the word of the vernacular, Please.
Edit II: Changed "it's" to "its" in paragraph three.


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## ProtoKun7 (Jun 24, 2010)

TM2-Megatron said:
			
		

> *Another noteworthy study from three years back notes that virtually every citizen violates intellectual property laws in some way on a daily basis.*


Then wouldn't the simple solution be to just arrest everyone?



Spoiler



Apologies if someone's already said this, but I opened this thread from the start and didn't want to sift through 11 pages just to say this.


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## luckwii (Jun 24, 2010)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
			
		

> Mr. luckwii, I implore you not to insult my intelligence, or your own.
> 
> You completely missed the point of my last post, which is that political parties and ideologues can rarely be judged fully on the weight of their own words. Certainly their own words can provide significant clues about themselves. Hitler's infamous Mein Kampf was an expression of congealed right-wing hysteria, stemming from the recognition that German capitalist economy was in trouble and the Versailles treaty made its expansion all but impossible. But even in this example, Hitler's own words damn him. Obama's words, treated in the context of his social function and interests play a similar role.
> 
> ...


Not insulting your intelligence as it is obvious you are. 

No, you liberals was the statement and it was a blanket statement not directed at you exclusively. You have a liberal leaning whether it is dominate or not I do not know.

Fox news nor Limbaugh give me my views. I try and read/watch everything as both sides are equally as important.

You go to church to improve yourself and your family. You go where you believe the right message is. Nobody attends a church with the wrong message without being forced to. Obama has said many things to indicate Black Theology is what he believes in. He himself said that hea agreed with Reverend Wright that "white greed hurts those in need". Or "his grandmother was a typical white person". Or how his wife was first proud to be an American once a black man was running for president (there were other liberals running but that didn't make her proud). The social justice and the dislike of Israel. It goes on and on.

I didn't want to get back into debate. This is the last post for me on this topic. I will though restate that the piracy ban is not to stop piracy. It is for control of the internet.


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## Rydian (Jun 24, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> What no one has tackled, becuase i assume it is an arguement without flaw, is the simple fact: When you purchase digital media you enter into an agreement that you will not duplicate the media. Game over. Thats it. If you don't like the terms you don't purchase it.


I have yet to see a videogame that presents me with an EULA *before* I buy it.

Nor have I seen an audio CD do that.
Not a video DVD.
Nor a Blu-Ray video.
Nor a game console.
Nor a videogame for said console.
Ever.

Nobody's tackled that _because it's not how it works_.

If you don't agree to the EULA, you don't get to use the product... however you've already bought it, and stores are notorious for not taking software returns once the box has been opened (_which needs to be done before the EULA can be viewed_).

I am not aware of any case where an EULA (not a TOS) with a game or other sort of digital media has been legally enforceable.  If you can find me a court case where that happened (and pull up the actual court documents stating so, and showing the verdict), I'll change my tone a bit.  I won't give in, however, as being made to agree to an EULA for a product you've already paid for (or forgo use of it) can be seen as a contract under duress, which voids it (especially in the case of such expensive software as photoshop).

Again you attempt to talk about something you have no experience in.
Do not do it again.  Legal matters are not things to be extrapolated upon.


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## Prophet (Jun 24, 2010)

Rydian said:
			
		

> Prophet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did it again


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## ore0 (Jun 24, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> For use only with Xbox 360® entertainment systems with “NTSC” designation. Unauthorized copying, reverse engineering,transmission, public performance, *rental*, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited.


Renting is illegal?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I feel so dirty...


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## omgpwn666 (Jun 24, 2010)

I knew this would have lots of pages, what's with gamers and politics? Damn!


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## Prophet (Jun 24, 2010)

ore0 said:
			
		

> Prophet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You should. You really should.

When you rent a game your not only exposing your system to that disc, you're exposing your system to all the systems that disc has been inside previously. Next thing you know you've got an STD and your system is red-ringing.

True Story.


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## Rydian (Jun 24, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> You are so busy looking for a legal loop-hole to justify your actionsNo, I'm not.
> My topic since my first post in this thread has been that piracy is not theft.
> I'm not saying it's not copyright infringement (which it is, I mentioned that), or that it's right (it's not), but it is not theft.
> 
> ...


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## MelodieOctavia (Jun 24, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



haha, a better analogy would be, I make an exact copy of your house, furniture and all and move into it. I have not deprived you of anything.


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## MEGAMANTROTSKY (Jun 25, 2010)

Mr. Prophet,

You state that you are a philosophy major and that since the legal system under which we live is to you a mere "premises." The issue of piracy is put forth as a "moral issue." Since groups of people are indeed committing piracy on a regular basis, you pose the question thus: "Is the piracy of non-essential goods right or wrong?" If that were really all there was to it, then the answer to your question would be an emphatic "yes." I could be wrong, but it seems as though your position is grounded in Immanuel Kant's "Categorical imperative." Under this system, the will and morality of the individual is considered wholly separate from his means, circumstances, and his miseries. Since the "victim" (in this case the media industries) cannot and could not possibly consent to an act such as piracy or "theft" as you call it, the pirate's action cannot be justified. As I saw on a website, "A thief's maxim, once generalized, would overturn the institution of property, but unless the institution of property exists, there can be no theft." Indeed, it seems that while you seem to acknowledge the "corrupt" past acts of the "victim," this context should immediately be divorced from the circumstance of the pirate, despite what they may be. The thing to consider is that the pirate _stole,_ and since the act itself is reprehensible and thus they must acknowledge their "moral" choices, etc. I say again: In this context, the answer to your moral question is obvious. Unfortunately, when the thief's means, circumstances, and miseries are brought to the fore, such sectarian thinking can only be swept aside.

Despite what you claimed before, I was not trying to put forth an "infantile" defense of piracy. In fact I already said that perhaps there is no romanticizing the act. However, digital piracy has a cause within the historical context. An attempt to explain does not mean to condone. (Explaining terrorist acts on the US, for example, does not detract from their cruel and reactionary means but is understood when US foreign policy in the Middle East is taken into account.) But because the act of piracy cannot meet the moral requirements of Kant's method nor your own, you choose to don an alb and act as the high priest of digital morality, completely ignoring the acts of those in power, since it is much easier to identify and blame the actions of the disenfranchised masses. Given that the state is presently influential and borderline-invasive for US citizens, with its bailout of the wealthy elite and pursuit of an imperialist war--with the rising cost of living as well--how can the act of digital piracy possibly not be understood? The circumstances dictate an entirely different scenario from the one that you paint. 

To quote Leon Trotsky's _Their Morals and Ours_ (typical, I know):

"Bourgeois evolutionism halts impotently at the threshold of historical society because it does not wish to acknowledge the driving force in the evolution of social forms: the class struggle. Morality is one of the ideological functions in this struggle. The ruling class forces its ends upon society and habituates it into considering all those means which contradict its ends as immoral. That is the chief function of official morality. It pursues the idea of the “greatest possible happiness” not for the majority but for a small and ever diminishing minority. Such a regime could not have endured for even a week through force alone. It needs the cement of morality. The mixing of this cement constitutes the profession of the petty bourgeois theoretician, and moralists. They dabble in all colors of the rainbow but in the final instance remain apostles of slavery and submission."

I'm convinced that this paragraph alone exposes your social function and position. I could go on and quote him further in this regard...so I will.

"Bourgeois evolutionism halts impotently at the threshold of historical society because it does not wish to acknowledge the driving force in the evolution of social forms: the class struggle. Morality is one of the ideological functions in this struggle. The ruling class forces its ends upon society and habituates it into considering all those means which contradict its ends as immoral. That is the chief function of official morality."

Your philosophy and political dialectic are old and out of date, for they fail to take into account who holds the keys to the kingdom in contemporary society, and who has been consistently denied them throughout history. Only a petty philistine would consider the shackled African slave and his plantation-master social equals before a court of morality.

Edit: Word repetition.


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## Guild McCommunist (Jun 25, 2010)

God you kids are so fucking boring. These "Is piracy moral?" arguments are just so generic. Two people slinging back and forth seeing who can use the cooler words and act like they have a bigger cock. Seriously, it's boring.

Let's get back to the topic on hand, which is Obama and his anti-piracy initiatives, alright? Christ no one wants to bother reading through walls of text for a stupid argument we've heard at least ten times before.

Or we can just lock this.


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## Aeladya (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't mind so much that they want to stop piracy, I do mind that they want to prosecute someone for thinking about pirating something. Just because we Google something, doesn't mean we are going to do it. I've thought about pirating things, but later have changed my mind simply because of ADHD and have decided to buy it. If they're going to prosecute someone for pirating, they could at least wait until they start the download.


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## monkat (Jun 25, 2010)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> God you kids are so fucking boring. These "Is piracy moral?" arguments are just so generic. Two people slinging back and forth seeing who can use the cooler words and act like they have a bigger cock. Seriously, it's boring.
> 
> Let's get back to the topic on hand, which is Obama and his anti-piracy initiatives, alright? Christ no one wants to bother reading through walls of text for a stupid argument we've heard at least ten times before.
> 
> Or we can just lock this.



So the government / law (a codification of our morality) wanting to crack down on piracy doesn't concern the morality of piracy? People do argue about it like you said, and it has been done a million times before, but you finding it boring doesn't make a thread garbage. The world doesn't revolve around you, and no one is making you read this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




. It is completely on-topic, and deals directly with Obama and his anti-piracy initiatives.


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## Danny600kill (Jun 25, 2010)

monkat said:
			
		

> Guild McCommunist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



anyways.... I actual agree with Guild, this argument may be relevent, but it is not needed as it has been discussed to many times. I'd rather get back to the point directly and stop like he said ''writing walls of texts'' about the morals of piracy


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## Rydian (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm not going on about morals, but about how factually wrong what Biden said is. =D


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## Midna (Jun 25, 2010)

Guild McCommunist said:
			
		

> God you kids are so fucking boring. These "Is piracy moral?" arguments are just so generic. Two people slinging back and forth seeing who can use the cooler words and act like they have a bigger cock. Seriously, it's boring.
> 
> Let's get back to the topic on hand, which is Obama and his anti-piracy initiatives, alright? Christ no one wants to bother reading through walls of text for a stupid argument we've heard at least ten times before.
> 
> Or we can just lock this.


QFT. I couldn't have bloody well put it better.


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## Prophet (Jun 25, 2010)

MEGAMANTROTSKY said:
			
		

> Mr. Prophet,
> 
> You state that you are a philosophy major and that since the legal system under which we live is to you a mere "premises." The issue of piracy is put forth as a "moral issue." Since groups of people are indeed committing piracy on a regular basis, you pose the question thus: "Is the piracy of non-essential goods right or wrong?" If that were really all there was to it, then the answer to your question would be an emphatic "yes." I could be wrong, but it seems as though your position is grounded in Immanuel Kant's "Categorical imperative." Under this system, the will and morality of the individual is considered wholly separate from his means, circumstances, and his miseries. Since the "victim" (in this case the media industries) cannot and could not possibly consent to an act such as piracy or "theft" as you call it, the pirate's action cannot be justified. As I saw on a website, "A thief's maxim, once generalized, would overturn the institution of property, but unless the institution of property exists, there can be no theft." Indeed, it seems that while you seem to acknowledge the "corrupt" past acts of the "victim," this context should immediately be divorced from the circumstance of the pirate, despite what they may be. The thing to consider is that the pirate _stole,_ and since the act itself is reprehensible and thus they must acknowledge their "moral" choices, etc. I say again: In this context, the answer to your moral question is obvious. Unfortunately, when the thief's means, circumstances, and miseries are brought to the fore, such sectarian thinking can only be swept aside.
> 
> ...


Yes. Lets return to the democrat vs republican arguments and sweeping statements about Obama’s ineptitude, because those arguments aren't wastes of time... Right. Or maybe we should just skip all further debate and simply resume the collective whining? 

I'll begin: *GRRR* _Socialism._ *GRUMBLE GRUMBLE* _Sarah Palin._ *BAW BAW* _How will I survive in a world where I have to pay for games?_


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 25, 2010)

Prophet said:
			
		

> I'm a Platonist. I believe that morality is an universal.



That's an incredibly dangerous and silly idea.

And if I may say, there's far too much ridiculous pontificating going on in this thread, and not nearly enough of _anything_ else.  At this point, who cares what it is; can someone just wheel these guys and their soapboxes outta here?


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## heavyknight (Jun 25, 2010)

Before someone says something - I'm not defending piracy, I for one am a pirate, and I won't deny or make an excuse. (OSTs, Games, Movies, the typical things. Well, those things are what people pirate anyways.)
Just getting tired of these things. 'Law', 'law', 'law', to that, I say, lawl. Pass this bill and it's game over for the US. Maybe the government should actually insert a coin and try again. Obama -> Osama.

Also with the whole right and wrong, don't bother. It's right & wrong, not one or the other. Going to be egotistical and say, it's a fact. 'Two sides to a story'. Two sides to piracy. Or is that too much to comprehend.  It's about the piracy law, not whether it's good or bad. Piracy can be good, is that shocking? We also know it's bad. Whatever. People these days.

On with my wall of text.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While they may never be able to truly defeat piracy and drive it from the lurking depths of the internet, copyright protection attack-dog organizations like the RIAA and MPAA have long dreamed of the day when they would no longer have to pay for their own copyright enforcement. Now that dream is on the verge of coming true, thanks to the Obama administration. - <b>Meh, so they're going to use other people's money instead? What difference does it make, it's still wasted money. Put it towards something better.... 
Let me get this straight. Instead of using money for bigger prisons, because of the ever increasing crimes and children missing cases, or other such cases such as jobs, you're going to aim for something 'petty'? I thought the law is to protect citizens, not hurt them.</b>

He states, "This is theft, clear and simple. It's smash and grab, no different than a guy walking down Fifth Avenue and smashing the window at Tiffany's and reaching in and grabbing what's in the window."
<b>What? You're comparing digital stuff with physical violence? Why would he just smash it? You'd think he'll be unarmed? What he's doing has a possibility of someone's death. This is 2010, not 2001. 
Where I live, a lot of things happen. I hear gunshots from time to time, as well as see flowers on the side of roads, meaning someone has died. Don't bother comparing random violence with harmless internet actions. It's not like you're doing things to help this neighborhood. I'm not saying my neighborhood is the worst. There are much worse, lawless areas. Sadly, not many people can do anything about it. (I get touchy on the subject of life.)</b>

According to the Obama administration,<b> the RIAA, and MPAA</b>, the world economy is pretty much doomed if we don't start prosecuting pirates at home and abroad. Without such a crackdown, <b>businesses will go bankrupt</b> the coalition argues. <b>Biden</b> states, "<b>Piracy hurts, it hurts our economy.</b>"
<b>1 - Seriously? The RIAA and MPAA pull random crap out of their ass, and with the things below such as the judge having connections to such organizations, you're going to listen to them? They're as one sided as a troll.
2 - Oh please, shovel-ware companies will go bankrupt because of such atrocities, music-based companies won't be as affected as badly. Guess what, downloads also show off popularity, popularity means it's good, meaning some of those downloaders will actually buy it! Shocking. PEOPLE BUY STUFF!? TOTALLY! OMG!!
3 - Seriously? We have a freaking oil spill with gallons by the millions, and you're talking about PIRACY hurting our ECONOMY? Not only is the spill affecting people, it's also ruining nature. Lack of care for US citizens, as usual.</b>

<i>(Look at Twilight. As much as I hate it, it is popular, and is making money. You're going to say that's hurting the economy?)</i>

Interestingly, the statements seem to fly in the face of a recent Government Accountability Office study released to U.S. Congress earlier this year, which concluded that there is <b>virtually no evidence</b> for the claimed million dollar losses by the entertainment industry. That study suggested that piracy could even benefit the economy. - 
<b>People like to try before they buy. Not to mention emulators, I tried the DS (well, more like I tried games for it)and, now I want to buy a DS. Of course, it's not limited to games. Bad songs? Not your style? Avoid buying that and buy something else. Not to mention the bolded part.</b>

Another noteworthy study from three years back notes that virtually every citizen violates intellectual property laws in some way on a daily basis. -
<b>This means everyone will be charged anyways. You're no better than pirates, you're just stealing money from people. Example of easy money : let's say 1 million people, at $1. Because the average person does not find $1 significant, they will give that $1. They have made 1 million dollars in no time at all.</b>

The White House press release was full of buzz phrases, but short on details. It did however indicate that the U.S. government may increasingly monitor filesharing networks and BitTorrent sites and assist media groups in their prosecution/threat letter efforts. It speaks of improved "law enforcement efforts at the Federal, state and local level."
<b>Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Yes, waste resources while staring at crap online. We already had idiots watching porn as the economy declined. Less law enforcement online, more law enforcement in reality.</b>

The biggest effort, though, will be devoted to cracking down on piracy websites in the U.S. and overseas. The administration was short on details of how exactly it would convince <b>piracy-loving nations like China</b> to change their ways, but it did say it would try to do so by "being as public as we possibly can" about infringement. <b>China - piracy is abundant because it makes money. Fake games, etc. Kind of no way to convince them, since well, it's money. Just like the above, US wants money, China wants money. </b>

The press release states, "As we shine the spotlight on foreign governments that have rogue actors doing illicit business within their borders, it's the government's responsibility to respond."

Such efforts have shown mild success. After lots of threats against the Swedish government by the U.S., the European Union nation finally tried admins with the nation's largest torrent site The Pirate Bay last year and found them guilty.<b> The trial was later exposed to be a perversion of the justice system, with the judge who gave the verdict have multiple ties to copyright protection organizations. The verdict -- $3M USD in damages and a year of hard prison time for the admins -- is currently being appealed.</b>

<b>All you did was show corruption, US. And abuse of sorts. The law isn't the law when it's one sided. False justice, ftw. Also, who are they giving $3M to? Someone will profit from this in the end. PROFIT, no justice. Also wasting money and resources by attacking TPB, so what is this $3M going to be for? 
"Reimbursement for lost time"? And DAMAGE? That's laughable. My house was egged on one Halloween a few years ago and my brother's car was broken into as well. That's real damage. Those fags almost hit my mom once as well. Oh someone downloaded something illegally! It's damaging something! Reputation? Money? Not really. Is it too much to handle if I said it could have the opposite effect?</b>

The White House's vision is perhaps a prelude to the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, which will go before Congress later this year. The bill would make P2P or BitTorrent client development a criminal offense if the distributed software was used for infringement. It also implements an interesting provision called "imminent infringement", which allows the government to charge people who they think might be about to infringe with a civil offense (for example if you searched "torrent daft punk"). This is among the first official "thought crime" provisions to be proposed by the U.S. government. The bill also makes it a criminal offense to bypass DRM.
<b>1 - You can't guarantee if the software will be used for infringement or not. Aiming at the developers? It's the people's action that are illegal.
2 - Imminent offense? Lawl. Torrents are the biggest way to find things, from super rare releases to modern music. Because of that, people are able to, gasp, try before they buy! If you think they are, you're gonna' charge 'em? SMART MOVE. It's like Arizona's law, to an extent.
3 - DRM? If there weren't so many retarded ways of protection, then no one would need to bypass it.</b>

Ultimately, it should be interesting to see how <u>American <b>taxpayers</b></u> react to President <strike><u>Obama's</u></strike> <u>Osama's</u> decision to spend their money on efforts to prosecute them and try to choke out piracy at home and abroad, particularly when the <u>current evidence is <b>inconclusive</b> of its effects</u>. One thing's for sure, though. <u>Top politicians</u> on both sides of the aisle are firmly behind the music and movie industry anti-piracy and <u><b>money-collection</b> </u>efforts.
<i>I couldn't help but underline parts of this, because it just shows how much the 'President' is failing here.</i>

<b>Summary - Let's use our tax money on us to make us give out more money. 'Perversion' of the law, much? They're going on a bias of, piracy definitely hurts the economy and always has even though we have no proof of it! 
Where's our freedom? Why the unjust actions? You're going to hurt consumers. YOU are going to HURT the ECONOMY. You're only making money for yourselves, not the industry.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Inb4 some one defends the US or says why am I still living here if I hate it so much, I'm sorry, unlike you, I'm not made of money, nor am I smart enough to learn a second language (tbh - I haven't actually tried to learn another language, because, well, high school is lacking. Oh hey, there's a subject to spend money on. And it'll actually matter, I know, surprising.) Seeing the world, from a world of sand to living in the heart of nature, but I digress. 
Anti-US? Sure, why not. Say that after 'my' media is left alone. I could care less about the US if that happened. Games are like parents to me, they're not just mindless entertainment. Music supports me. Anime/movies/cartoons entertain me and teach me. I pirate and I buy.

Besides, I'm pretty sure import sites make more money by charging $80 for an item as opposed to it's 'actual' price in foreign places. GameStop has also been around for years. Rental stores such as Blockbuster, too. Oh, let's not forget about Gamefly and Netflix. Why buy when people can rent? All these companies make 'easy' money. (Which may involve hard work behind the scenes. It's not just one person and one dvd, when orders come in, and then when returns come in, etc.) They aren't going bankrupt any time soon. They provide some sources of media, so why don't you count them in?

-Sigh- the one thing that has gives interest in life that'll eventually get me in trouble with this redundant crap? Whatever, a risk I'm willing to take. If that many citizens are 'breaking' the 'law', then they can't arrest and charge all of us. I'm pretty sure if they tried that, they'd regret making such a dumb bill and wish they made one relating to prisons and all that crap. That or, Civil War 2. Ironically, if it does happen, someone will probably make Civil War 2 - The video game.

I just wish they'd stop doing stupid crap and focus on the country for once. Shoddy schools, people getting scammed so easily, crime here and there, you know, the usual.


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## Midna (Jun 25, 2010)

AHHHHHHH.

If you're going to make your post so bloody long, PLEASE put them in spoiler tags so we sane people won't have to see.


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## gameguy95 (Jun 25, 2010)

Dang it, i just sold my nuke to those iranians


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## TM2-Megatron (Jun 25, 2010)

gameguy95 said:
			
		

> Dang it, i just sold my nuke to those iranians



Watch out; the NSA might be busting down your door any minute now.


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## Hop2089 (Jun 25, 2010)

He should try to make profits off our eventual oil ocean we call the Gulf of Mexico, get rid of the oil, refine it, and sell it for government profit.


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## riverchen (Jun 25, 2010)

^ so true!


Screw Obama


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