# Are retro games "meant" to be bought by these people?



## Demifiend (Aug 31, 2016)

I've been watching some youtubers, specially individuals like the AVGN, Pat the NES punk, etc. who have a crap ton of NES games and retro stuff in general, in fact, is so big that real book libraries are filled with cartridges of the original games, and as such, they aren't that "friendly" with the terms of emulation, or playing roms within a computer and such. 

But this stance is not only with them, is also with most reviewers who have the need to "Show" the cartridge in order to explain said game, is like "Hey, look at me, i have this rare golden cartridge whose worth is the same as a new car, and i'm gonna review it right now, and here!", even some people support them and think that everyone should buy the cartridges or CD's in order to get the "Real experience". 

What kind of "Real Experience" is paying overpriced articles that were long discontinued?, many old games are known to be ridiculously expensive such as Little Samson, Stadium Events, Ducktales 2, etc. heck, even games like Darkwing Duck for the NES, the cartridge alone costs about 60 to 70 dollars, that's more or less the price of a new retail AAA game!.

Not only they do have lots of retro games in their bookshelves, they also have old consoles like the CDi, the Virtual Boy, Coleco Vision, Intellivision, Atari 5200, Atari 7800, Atari Jaguar, Turbografx 16 with the CD add-on, the 3DO, etc. 

A console like the CDi or the 3DO aren't exactly cheap, neither were back then, neither are right now, which makes me ask, if someone is so akin, against, vs piracy in all its forms, should people in terms of legal matters buy all the games, regardless if its out of the stores or not?.

Because according to the laws, a game is only free domain after 60 to 70 years the death of the author who owns the licensee of the game, this isn't applied when the games aren't Copyrighted nor sold at a retail price, ie Free. That means we won't play games like "Super Mario Bros" or "Legend of Zelda" in legal terms through emulation only after Miyamoto dies, and about 70 years have passed. 

Virtual Console games on Nintendo don't help either, they only pick like "This game or maybe that game" but you need to purchase Nintendo points in order to get them, and in the end, is only more emulation, but is "Legal emulation" because Nintendo has the licensees to publish those games in there.

So, what do you think, should people buy the retro games they can afford (despite not supporting the developers because they are onto new games, or are extinct companies) and not emulate by any means, or the opposite?.


----------



## migles (Aug 31, 2016)

Demifiend said:


> So, what do you think, should people buy the retro games they can afford (despite not supporting the developers because they are onto new games, or are extinct companies) and not emulate by any means, or the opposite?.


collectionism doesn't make much sense..
there was this guy who is trying (or did try) to get every fucking vhs copy of one single movie
there are people who collect actress pubic hair, beer caps, any kind of imaginable thing you can think off...
the retro games in their true form, are only for collectors...
i am a 20+ year old i love to play on the original consoles but only cuz nostalgia value.. however my friends go all like "you know you can play that on your phone in emulators right?"
nowdays emulators give a new life to theese retro games.. with stuff like improved graphics, save states, cheats...
you have both worlds, you can play a game like it was intended to be played, or with improvements so you don't loose thoose 5 hours you had been playing sonic the hedgehog...

i really agree that it's just bullshit that nintendo or sony doesn't shove the entire library of their emulated systems on the stores
come on.. only in 2016 they decided to release the first pokemon games for VC. and we had been doing it since we found out how to inject the games...
they didn't really port the games, or remake them.. they just developed a "player" with the game bundled on it
same case with the ps2 classics on the ps3 and psx on psp...
this means they can pretty easily make the entire library avaiable...


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 31, 2016)

Something is worth what someone else is willing to pay. I find myself saying that a lot around here but it is still very true.
If you can afford it and you enjoy it then more power to you. I would agree that emulation provides me a functional equivalent or even functionally superior means of playing games, not sure how it is relevant there though.

Also what bearing does supporting companies have to do with anything? Second hand is a legit/legal market, well established in games and other intellectual property based fields and has been for decades. Them not supporting game devs now seems about as relevant as my granddad not supporting game devs because he likes to buy old cars and trucks.

You mentioned emulation being a dirty word to some that are prominent in the gaming press and similar fields, I find this somewhat amusing myself and there might be something more to discuss here. I don't know where it started, though I am going to point somewhat at Nintendo as they seem to have informed several similar opinions over the years.


----------



## DinohScene (Aug 31, 2016)

I like playing old games on their original hardware (or BC on consoles/handhelds)
And good games I'd like to have retail.

I know I can emulate most games but eh, playing it on the original hardware is so much better then emulation.


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 31, 2016)

DinohScene said:


> I know I can emulate most games but eh, playing it on the original hardware is so much better then emulation.



Why? If it bothers you (for most games I would hold most can not tell) then frame accurate is a thing you an do, we can emulate the failures of CRT ( http://bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator/ ), emulators have cheats, audio and video filters, savestates, enhancements like those afforded by lua, no region issues, easier ability to run hacks and if it matters you can even play with a controller that is or plays like the original piece of junk the system came with. I guess if you want the scent of decades old fire retardant chemicals you might have a harder time as the perfumers have so far only done books so far ( http://ebookfriendly.com/book-smell-perfumes-candles/ )... *looks up how carcinogenic such chemicals are*.


----------



## Deleted-379826 (Aug 31, 2016)

These crazy collectors waste their time tbh. Spending all your money on something that's MEANT to collect dust is really a waste! I mean it's okay if you have a small collection of a series or something, I think we all do! But when you are spending, almost *MILLIONS* of dollars on filler for your shelf and to say "lol n00b I have this and you don't, oh yeah and this and this and this, just look at this sexy shelf and that shelf and that one and that one, and can you tell all the money I put into that filler for my shelf that you don't have????". Really it's a waste. There's better things you can save your money for and better things you can use that space on. Who cares if you have it and no one else does? Now there are some collections that are okay. Let's say I have every final fantasy game, because I love Final Fantasy. Now let's assume because they love it, they will put those to use. Loving every second of the game. But when you have such a huge collection like for example AVGN, you know you are *NEVER* going to finish or even touch a third or more of what you have. It again is just to say, I have it and you don't! 

So pretty much what I'm trying to say is if you are a collector like AVGN, you wasted your space, time and a LOT of your precious, hard-earned money! But if you are just a casual collector, then it is always fun especially since you know you *ACTUALLY WILL* use those items!


----------



## DinohScene (Aug 31, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> Why? If it bothers you (for most games I would hold most can not tell) then frame accurate is a thing you an do, we can emulate the failures of CRT ( http://bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator/ ), emulators have cheats, audio and video filters, savestates, enhancements like those afforded by lua, no region issues, easier ability to run hacks and if it matters you can even play with a controller that is or plays like the original piece of junk the system came with. I guess if you want the scent of decades old fire retardant chemicals you might have a harder time as the perfumers have so far only done books so far ( http://ebookfriendly.com/book-smell-perfumes-candles/ )... *looks up how carcinogenic such chemicals are*.



So much effort when you can just plug in an N64 game in an N64 and start it.
Emulation can do so much but one thing it can't.
The nostalgic feel.


----------



## Deleted-379826 (Aug 31, 2016)

I mean I'm pretty young so I have pretty much no nostalgia to these older consoles. Although I would have to agree, there is just something about pure hardware that makes it so much better! And I can agree with this with no nostalgia at all!


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 31, 2016)

What effort? Much of that happens out of the box, so to speak, and probably does not involve me getting out of my chair.

Also that nostalgia thing must vary between people, and possibly be all in their head. Maybe you could train yourself to think otherwise.


----------



## Deleted-379826 (Aug 31, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> What effort? Much of that happens out of the box, so to speak, and probably does not involve me getting out of my chair.
> 
> Also that nostalgia thing must vary between people, and possibly be all in their head. Maybe you could train yourself to think otherwise.


Yeah I don't mind the "effort". I honestly like both but there is something about real hardware! (again this is not nostalgia based because I have none, I'm young and also played on many emulators when I was very very young too!)


----------



## sarkwalvein (Aug 31, 2016)

You will never have the "real experience" as someone may want to call it.
The real experience includes being part of it happening, when it happened, immerse in the spirit of the time.
The hardships (or lack of) of getting the game when it was released is part of the experience. Also the marketing. Etc.
You just can't have the original experience, even if you are a colector. The original experience belongs to a short timeframe, it is ephemeral. Deal with it, that's life.


----------



## VinsCool (Aug 31, 2016)

I collect games because I can.


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 31, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> You will never have the "real experience" as someone may want to call it.
> The real experience includes being part of it happening, when it happened, immerse in the spirit of the time.
> The hardships (or lack of) of getting the game when it was released is part of the experience. Also the marketing. Etc.
> You just can't have the original experience, even if you are a colector. The original experience belongs to a short timeframe, it is ephemeral. Deal with it, that's life.



I don't know. A lot of that might have been ignorance as well -- without internet, having game guides mean something (as opposed to ctrl+f on gamefaqs), being too cheap to buy games magazines (had to buy computer shopper with my pocket money instead) it changed how things go. Not really in a good way, though I purposely ignore trailers until I have the option to wander into town and slap some cash on a counter I still like having footage, 500 different reviews from all sorts (definitely more reliable than my mates on the playground and a few adults that knew something of games) to skim through and more at my fingertips.
Anyway the point of that would be it could be radically different for a lot of people, and thus there is some scope for something there. Now maybe in 20 years when the old stuff is 360 games that might even be more relevant as we all have somewhat more uniform memories of things.

The nature of games which are more fleeting in the ability to be played spawned some great discussions though. The nature of args/alternate reality games that are conducted over the live internet and may well eventually see servers go down and people figure out puzzles and actually change things... being my favourite jumping off point. More conventional online games with a levelling system that sticks between matches is another, though it usually boils down to the ramp up and when most players are "end game" levelled.


----------



## Flame (Aug 31, 2016)

the reason I collect old consoles is cause one day im going to be a super hacker.

I need the real console to reserve engineer it and so people can do emulation with super perfect coding.

so I can play all the games on emulation.


----------



## SomecallmeBerto (Aug 31, 2016)

I do 90% of my retro gaming via emulation unless it's something like the DS (I just don't like the controls). I don't have a ton of room so having all my games in my gaming PC or 3DS is jsut fine for me.


----------



## Sliter (Aug 31, 2016)

Demifiend said:


> But this stance is not only with them, is also with most reviewers who have the need to "Show" the cartridge in order to explain said game, is like "Hey, look at me, i have this rare golden cartridge whose worth is the same as a new car, and i'm gonna review it right now, and here!", even some people support them and think that everyone should buy the cartridges or CD's in order to get the "Real experience".


not really.. I mean, having it to collect is cool and stuff, imagina shwing, even a bootleg, recca 92, something nobody saw outsie japan haha 
but sponsored youtubers can't show piracy in any form, even more say "come be a pirate you too!" haha some do it at start but wen get an sponsor they can't do it, pira is agains the law so if you use dto show sentai games recorded form a region modded console, now you need a japanese console to do that, or even  a mod to record it (this i'm not sure ? how to record GB whitout a mod or a emulator? I mean, not looking crappy haha)


----------



## Daggot (Aug 31, 2016)

I don't emulate much anymore because like playing games on the original hardware. For super rare flashcarts and the occasional ODE are a thing.


----------



## Sliter (Aug 31, 2016)

but I think stuff over priced is so wrong .. I emna .. having the old nes card of mario is like " wow a piece of story", is like having a helmet used on a crusade (?) It's the only menaing of that, why being so pricey? Idk :/
You can have a bootleg that will live more and maybe, mad erecetly that ena sit gonna last more and maybe made with more quality than the original made in 80's
Same if you want a replica of the hermet on your room, insteda of an actuall histoy item xD
The gameplay would be the same, the decoration too so well idk :/


----------



## grossaffe (Aug 31, 2016)

Sliter said:


> but I think stuff over priced is so wrong .. I emna .. having the old nes card of mario is like " wow a piece of story", is like having a helmet used on a crusade (?) It's the only menaing of that, why being so pricey? Idk :/
> You can have a bootleg that will live more and maybe, mad erecetly that ena sit gonna last more and maybe made with more quality than the original made in 80's
> Same if you want a replica of the hermet on your room, insteda of an actuall histoy item xD
> The gameplay would be the same, the decoration too so well idk :/


Supply and demand.


----------



## duffmmann (Aug 31, 2016)

Simply put, many people care about being as true to the original experience the games were released as, as possible. 

Furthermore, any reviewer that is trying to make a name for themselves wants to be legit and not land in any hot water, if a game developer finds that a reviewer is illegally playing and reviewing a game of theirs via emulation so that they can monetize on that gameplay/review, they could find themselves in legal trouble.  Having said that last part, I'm not sure why that kind of person wouldn't just play those games on the virtual console if they are available, unless again they subscribe to my first point there.


----------



## Sliter (Aug 31, 2016)

grossaffe said:


> Supply and demand.


nah we have n64 zelda OoT enough to build an actuall hyrule castle around here (lol)  but people still sell them por over R$(BRL) 200 only cart :/
thia also happens with oot 3D (but brazilian eshop don't help... having it at the lauch price of R$150, used also go over 200 .... ) it's all because it's labeled " zelda" and aren't that rare ...

other I don't see much demand is Harvets moon 64... actually I found it by a good price but could not get it... :c 
but prices all over 100 U$D on ebay (if english version, japanese can be found by lower)
If there are demand for this are only crazy collector (and not sure if someone would like a HM labbeled games thes edays... natsume is killing the name D: lol), that don't looks a great demand ... not even rarity since we can find some lots of it ... so really why? if he have 5 HM64 and sell 2 for 100$ and never sell the rest, selling all by 30$ would make he earn more lol 
This only make people far from having the taste of playing it ....


----------



## jurassicplayer (Aug 31, 2016)

...uh...if you collect things, generally you try to find really good deals in batches and then flip duplicates for cash that fund your collection ._.

It's not like they just bust down all of their money and go broke...


----------



## Sonic Angel Knight (Aug 31, 2016)

What the heck is going on here? I thought this was a debate of who are retro games for? Retro? what does that mean? Hold on.

ret·ro1
ˈretrō/
_adjective_
adjective: *retro*

*1*.
imitative of a style, fashion, or design from the recent past.
"retro 60s fashions"
_noun_
noun: *retro*

*1*.
clothes or music whose style or design is imitative of those of the recent past.
"a look that mixes Italian casual wear and American retro"
Okay so it means someone must have created a history of it to consider it retro. If that nerd and that punk has a history of a game, is retro to them or anyone. I have a history of playing sonic 3 on a genesis, when it was available. So is retro to me to play it. Weather or not you play on real console as intended or on many compilation disc, (Sonic mega collection, gems collection, Ultimate megadrive collection, playstation network download, Virtual console, whatever) Means no difference besides your not playing on a genesis. I have lots of compliation games that are retro. the game itself is not much different than it was before. Mega man legacy collection for 3DS is 6 NES GAMES IN ONE FORMAT! IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU FIND ON THE 6 MEGAMAN GAMES ON VC! Only difference is your not in 1994, with a nes console with controller and using a non HD or better looking tv. Either way it can be played and that what matters.

That nerd and that punk do what they want to. If their point is relive NOSTALGIA, then retro gaming has nothing to do with it. NOSTALGIA is the act of doing something that gives you the sense of repeating what you once did. They are aiming for that. That nerd aim is to play a game exactly how he remembers playing it. So you can invision how bad they are (or good if he does play good ones) If you played castlevania 2 simon's quest or Teenage mutant ninja turtles in 1988, then is considered retro games. Is opinion based. Playing Castlevania on VC is retro. Depend how one feels about it is their nostalgia.

I don't believe they are shaming emulators. They just aren't aiming for that, is in fact that the nerd admit to using emulation to play Hong Kong 97 Cause "There was no copies to exist" I dunno much about it, maybe is a public domain game, some bootleg or homebrew, those hardly  get cart release unless someone make it themself. Their goal is always to play the game as originally intended, never did anyone shame or disregard emulation. Is nothing against it, i also wish people stop debating or arguing over emulation vs console policies.

I like them both. Console provides easy acess to playing games with simple insert game and plug controller and play. The bad side is nes had so many glitches in games graphically due to contact issues and such that is out of player control that can get annoying. Games wth no save or passwords that is long (Blaster master, castlevania, ghost and goblins and super mario bros 3) are not easy to finish with those reasons. Also limit to one controller that isn't exactly comfortable for eveyrone is a thing.

Emulators provide enhancements while trying to achieve full perfect compatibilty and remove restrictions and limitations consoles were having like the region free, playing Famicom disk system Japan only thing, better upscaled graphics and colors on modern hd screens, Turbo, rapid fire, cheats, multiplayer support, graphic filters, ability to fix problems, less glitches or issues with games due to not being hardware with contacts, save states for games with no save at all, even online play and other great ideas. Multiple controller support using moderen contoller and can remapped buttons to fit desired player preference.

I do admit that some emulators do take lots of patience to set up and is a hassle like the MAME or Neo geo stuff. Where you could have simple time of just playing the console of it. Setting up epsxe emulator with getting bios, finding graphic plugins and shaders, looking for other plugins, configure memory cards, setting up input and copying your disc to iso or bin format if you want or just using the disc drive, could take time and easier to just put the disc in the console and play it. Some is not complex but either way emulation is a option and should just be the players decision to play however they please.

Like @FAST6191 said, Emulation has positive things i like more than console. But @DinohScene Also make the valid point of easy access and getting things working with less effort, along with best compatibility. No one is in the wrong here.


----------



## Sheepy Me (Aug 31, 2016)

There is no shoulds to buying retro games. People shouldn't have a problem with something so minuscule as collecting. You should however at least know the cause and effect of emulating, specifically when you emulate a game that you didn't buy. When you emulate something you got off some website, your support doesn't vanish. Let Sheepy Me tell you, instead of supporting people working to do things the right way, you support criminal organizations and terrorists.


----------



## VinsCool (Aug 31, 2016)

jurassicplayer said:


> ...uh...if you collect things, generally you try to find really good deals in batches and then flip duplicates for cash that fund your collection ._.
> 
> It's not like they just bust down all of their money and go broke...


This is _exactly_ what I do! That works well.


----------



## Sliter (Aug 31, 2016)

Sheepy Me said:


> There is no shoulds to buying retro games. People shouldn't have a problem with something so minuscule as collecting. You should however at least know the cause and effect of emulating, specifically when you emulate a game that you didn't buy. When you emulate something you got off some website, your support doesn't vanish. Let Sheepy Me tell you, instead of supporting people working to do things the right way, you support criminal organizations and terrorists.


I don't agree you on part that collection is minuscle, it's help to keep story alive, to know that wasn't a lie that someone written these (at least in parts? XD)...it's the proof lol
I just don't think it should be so overpriced , history id for all  this is why I'm ok with cheaper replicas XD


----------



## Thomas83Lin (Aug 31, 2016)

Over the years I guess I've just had bad experiences with pure emulation. Either its lag or annoying Input lag, maybe even glitches. I especially noticed this when playing battletoads on a Nes Emu.  You'd think they would have console perfect emulation for the nes by now. 
I've found playing on original hardware just works. I don't mind things like flash carts or even hardware mods. But I do prefer original hardware. Most flash carts do provide stuff like save states and cheats also. So in a way flash carts provide the best of both worlds!!

btw, If everyone is happy with emulation, then why worry about the prices of legit hardware\carts


----------



## Sonic Angel Knight (Aug 31, 2016)

Thomas83Lin said:


> btw, If everyone is happy with emulation, then why worry about the prices of legit hardware\carts


Umm one still has to buy the games to back it up to play on emulators. Unless your not paranoid about piracy


----------



## Hanafuda (Aug 31, 2016)

sarkwalvein said:


> *You will never have the "real experience" *as someone may want to call it.
> *The real experience includes being part of it happening, when it happened, immerse in the spirit of the time.*
> The hardships (or lack of) of getting the game when it was released is part of the experience. Also the marketing. Etc.
> You just can't have the original experience, even if you are a colector. The original experience belongs to a short timeframe, it is ephemeral. Deal with it, that's life.



I _was_ there. I'm o.a.f., for this place anyway. Next birthday will be the five-0. I was a freshman in college when the NES hit. I spent jr. high and high school playing Atari at home, and arcade games at the mall and pizza shop.

Having played on the original hardware, I still prefer the original hardware. I do have an "Adaptoid" usb adaptor for the N64 controller that at least provides a Nintendo feel on emus, but it's still an emu. But while I prefer having the real consoles, I also prefer my N8, SD2SNES, ED64 2.5, and that my Saturn, GCN, and Wii are modded. I'm not gonna pay a couple hundred bucks to get some obscure Saturn game. There are current systems at retail that get that money.


----------



## raulpica (Aug 31, 2016)

Flashcarts for life for me. I love playing on original hardware, but no way I'm going to pay more than five bucks for a 20-years old game. And five bucks WOULD be the real price for these items, if it wasn't for people with more cash than good sense which are ruining the market for the majority: normal people that love old videogames.

"Collectors" can choke on their wads of cash (which I'd spend on hookers and blow, if I were them)


----------



## Sliter (Aug 31, 2016)

raulpica said:


> Flashcarts for life for me. I love playing on original hardware, but no way I'm going to pay more than five bucks for a 20-years old game. "Collectors" can choke on their wads of cash (which I'd spend on hookers and blow, if I were them)


sad that flashcards are also not cgeap :/ of course woth more play X in a flahscard toplay all the games+ than one old game XD


----------



## raulpica (Aug 31, 2016)

Sliter said:


> sad that flashcards are also not cgeap :/ of course woth more play X in a flahscard toplay all the games+ than one old game XD


I prefer giving $100 to a guy which has actually worked hard to produce some good hardware than a sleazy scalper on eBay that happened to buy that same cartridge he's now reselling on eBay for 50 bucks for 2$ in a thrift shop somewhere. These people should be getting a real job instead of ruining retrogaming for everyone.


----------



## Sliter (Aug 31, 2016)

raulpica said:


> I prefer giving $100 to a guy which has actually worked hard to produce some good hardware than a sleazy scalper on eBay that happened to buy that same cartridge he's now reselling on eBay for 50 bucks for 2$ in a thrift shop somewhere. These people should be getting a real job instead of ruining retrogaming for everyone.


agree


----------



## ScarletDreamz (Aug 31, 2016)

raulpica said:


> Flashcarts for life for me. I love playing on original hardware, but no way I'm going to pay more than five bucks for a 20-years old game. And five bucks WOULD be the real price for these items, if it wasn't for people with more cash than good sense which are ruining the market for the majority: normal people that love old videogames.
> 
> "Collectors" can choke on their wads of cash (which I'd spend on hookers and blow, if I were them)


i used to collect videogames, but then i started to collect videogames that i only used to play as a kid, once i hit that, i quit, of course i got like massive rom packs on every console i can put my hands on, PS3, XBOX 360, XBOX, WII, PC, DS, 3DS, PSP are some of them that are fully loaded, however, there is always that "Nostalgic" felling to play the cartridge or the game itself on the original hardware, the felling to own a game cartridge its nice.

Sure thing, i also got my R4, and some flashcards, but that doe snot mean that i dont have my old retro games on my living room, you know what they say.

"Nostalgia Sells" just watch Nintendo releasing his 30 games mini nes, sega releasing again his 65 games console, or all the FlashBacks consoles? C:


----------



## Sonic Angel Knight (Aug 31, 2016)

I still don't understand the topic of discussion, I see people saying their opinion and preference regarding console or emulation use and buying games for high prices. The title ask "Are retro game 'meant' to be bought by these people?" The original post stated two specific youtubers and their nes collections, why is no one discussing that? Someone tell me what we should be talking about here cause i still don't understand.


----------



## raulpica (Aug 31, 2016)

ScarletDreamz said:


> i used to collect videogames, but then i started to collect videogames that i only used to play as a kid, once i hit that, i quit, of course i got like massive rom packs on every console i can put my hands on, PS3, XBOX 360, XBOX, WII, PC, DS, 3DS, PSP are some of them that are fully loaded, however, there is always that "Nostalgic" felling to play the cartridge or the game itself on the original hardware, the felling to own a game cartridge its nice.
> 
> Sure thing, i also got my R4, and some flashcards, but that doe snot mean that i dont have my old retro games on my living room, you know what they say.
> 
> "Nostalgia Sells" just watch Nintendo releasing his 30 games mini nes, sega releasing again his 65 games console, or all the FlashBacks consoles? C:


I don't have any issues with real collectors (I'm one myself, I collect all the hardware I couldn't buy when I was a kid), what I have a problem with is that most "Collectors" are willing to spend a shitload of money on something which shouldn't cost more than X only because they've got a shitload of money (which they probably didn't work for anyway, otherwise they'd have a better idea of how much an item like that is worth) and can outbid everyone else. Then the abnormally high bid becomes the new "normal" and everything goes down the drain.

If there weren't people willing to spend $500 for an EarthBound cartridge, sellers would be forced to sell them for $20 - but nope, that doesn't happen because you have some rich kid somewhere that can blow $500 on a game. As long as these kind of people exist, the entire market of retrogaming is going to be ruined for everyone.

Heck, if prices were still normal (they were until... 6-7 years ago?) my house would be filled to the brim with cartridges, by now.



Sonic Angel Knight said:


> I still don't understand the topic of discussion, I see people saying their opinion and preference regarding console or emulation use and buying games for high prices. The title ask "Are retro game 'meant' to be bought by these people?" The original post stated two specific youtubers and their nes collections, why is no one discussing that? Someone tell me what we should be talking about here cause i still don't understand.


That's a different matter - those people actually rake in a lot of cash every time they release a new video and as such it is IMPERATIVE for them to own the real deal, otherwise you could easily see Nintendo/SEGA/whatever suing their ass for millions.


----------



## Hking0036 (Aug 31, 2016)

raulpica said:


> I prefer giving $100 to a guy which has actually worked hard to produce some good hardware than a sleazy scalper on eBay that happened to buy that same cartridge he's now reselling on eBay for 50 bucks for 2$ in a thrift shop somewhere. These people should be getting a real job instead of ruining retrogaming for everyone.


To add onto this, I like to have real carts because of how much I like stuff like the SNES/GBA but shelling out $200 for an SD2SNES is a no-brainer because there's no reason earthbound, chrono trigger, MMX2 and X3 should cost that much (plus with stuff like my Link to the Past battery dying), and I'm still willing to pay to play on real hardware instead of emulating. I still hope the SD2SNES gets an update in the future for SA-1 but that's got to be far out. Super Mario RPG is climbing, just hope my battery doesn't go out (though I am missing dream land 3, which is pushing $85 these days).

Also, thanks for the EDGBA Review, mine just shipped with the edgb too and I'm excited to play them on my GC


----------



## Sonic Angel Knight (Aug 31, 2016)

raulpica said:


> I don't have any issues with real collectors (I'm one myself, I collect all the hardware I couldn't buy when I was a kid), what I have a problem with is that most "Collectors" are willing to spend a shitload of money on something which shouldn't cost more than X only because they've got a shitload of money (which they probably didn't work for anyway, otherwise they'd have a better idea of how much an item like that is worth) and can outbid everyone else. Then the abnormally high bid becomes the new "normal" and everything goes down the drain.
> 
> If there weren't people willing to spend $500 for an EarthBound cartridge, sellers would be forced to sell them for $20 - but nope, that doesn't happen because you have some rich kid somewhere that can blow $500 on a game. As long as these kind of people exist, the entire market of retrogaming is going to be ruined for everyone.


$500 for a game i don't even like? I rather pay the $8 on virtual console for it if that is the case. O_O
Or compliation game or whatever. I still don't know why stuff is sold for so much when there is cost efficent alternatives like virtual consle. Never would i pay over 100$ for ANY GAME EVER! Even if i want it or not. They want money and that how people are, leave me out.


----------



## ScarletDreamz (Aug 31, 2016)

raulpica said:


> I don't have any issues with real collectors (I'm one myself, I collect all the hardware I couldn't buy when I was a kid), what I have a problem with is that most "Collectors" are willing to spend a shitload of money on something which shouldn't cost more than X only because they've got a shitload of money (which they probably didn't work for anyway, otherwise they'd have a better idea of how much an item like that is worth) and can outbid everyone else. Then the abnormally high bid becomes the new "normal" and everything goes down the drain.
> 
> If there weren't people willing to spend $500 for an EarthBound cartridge, sellers would be forced to sell them for $20 - but nope, that doesn't happen because you have some rich kid somewhere that can blow $500 on a game. As long as these kind of people exist, the entire market of retrogaming is going to be ruined for everyone.
> 
> ...


oh alright, as example, we cna use Megaman X2, and Megaman X3 lol...


----------



## RustInPeace (Aug 31, 2016)

I'd like to buy retro games, but not at the level of spending too much money for them. For example a copy of Pokemon Blue, in the box, manual, all that, for $300? Hell no, $20, okay, but that's still a stretch. Sometimes I do emulation, but I can't really fully get into it. Even now with being able to use a console controller like a Gamecube one on some emulators, I'd rather have the hardware and the games all physical, plugged into a TV. In a way I could separate video games from the PC (except of course for PC games), and multi task in some way. On another note, I would actually like to get more into flashcarts as a way to test some games out when considering getting the physical copy, in particular N64 games and getting that Everdrive cart. 

As someone who watches AVGN, it's a marvel to see the large game collections. While it's a long term financial burden, it's still really impressive. They made the money and have the space, so let them do what they want, answering the question posed by the thread title. Something that came to mind, the internet and the rise of retro gaming kind of caused this collection craze, in the sense of an avenue to show off the real deal. The first AVGN episode, Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest, was played on an emulator, and that was 2004. With Youtube and live streaming, the call to have more flair in presentation occurs, and physical copies are more relevant. On one hand, a certain and maybe large audience wouldn't bother with seeing gameplay of someone playing off an emulator, so time to pony up cash and get those games. But to note, some collectors like AVGN I think were collecting games even before the internet age, and come from that generation that wants to preserve that history. The names mentioned in the OP aren't millennials, and I doubt there are many millennials that have that collection drive. I'm one, and I don't have that kind of drive, I'd like to get into it a bit, but there's no way I can spend 20 years building up such a large collection as these other people. At least I can watch and imagine how it'd be like, that's fine for me.


----------



## Hking0036 (Aug 31, 2016)

ScarletDreamz said:


> oh alright, as example, we cna use Megaman X2, and Megaman X3 lol...


Don't forget that melee regularly runs up to $60+ dollars, the #1 selling game on the entire gamecube:


----------



## Sliter (Aug 31, 2016)

gam,ecube are retro already? :/
I still have a much of play from it but nintendont is my friend XD
I just wanted a phisical version of zelda TP and 4swords =3=


----------



## ScarletDreamz (Aug 31, 2016)

Hking0036 said:


> Don't forget that melee regularly runs up to $60+ dollars, the #1 selling game on the entire gamecube:


yeah but as example
look at this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Smash...643470?hash=item3f69b8928e:g:0x4AAOSwi0RXw63I

that's smash melee.

now look at this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/mega-man-x3-/262570187348?hash=item3d22671a54:g:6OsAAOSwLpdW~Chv

thats Mega Man x3... and both are the cheapest listed on ebay.. see the difference?


----------



## Hking0036 (Aug 31, 2016)

ScarletDreamz said:


> yeah but as example
> look at this:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Smash...643470?hash=item3f69b8928e:g:0x4AAOSwi0RXw63I
> 
> ...


I'm aware of how much X3 is, and 7 as well. Relatively speaking, melee is bloated for a gamecube game though, considering how many of them that should be out there.


----------



## ScarletDreamz (Aug 31, 2016)

Hking0036 said:


> I'm aware of how much X3 is, and 7 as well. Relatively speaking, melee is bloated for a gamecube game though, considering how many of them that should be out there.


Totally True.


----------



## chavosaur (Aug 31, 2016)

I work with retro games for a living so maybe I can answer this a bit. 

As a collector (almost ex collector now,) I can say that game collecting is entirely based on nostalgia and a tie to physicality. It's the same ago old argument that plagues the gaming scene today. 

People are attached to physical media and refuse to move onto the new era. My consumer base that Comes through my store buy retro games are their sometimes crazy prices, for 3 reasons. 

Nostalgia 
They refuse digital over physical
They want to see the price continue to rise. 

Working in my store for a few months, I've seen games do nothing but rise simply because nostalgia creates demand, and because of how old these games are and how hard it is to take care of some of them (especially as it pertains to discs,) they're strong rarer and rarer as time goes by. 

I've had 3 fucking copies of Fire Emblem Path of Radiance for GameCube roll through my store in less than two months, a $110 game, and all three times it has sold almost immediately. As long as the prices rise and the nostalgia is there, there is a market. I wouldn't have my job right now without that market. 

But to answer your question specifically, I don't think you have to buy these games as the only means of playing them. The emulation market is as small as the retro collection market, and emulation doesn't actually hurt my business as much as you think it would. We have two stores now and in the first 3 days of that store being open, we made $15,000. My store has been around for two years and pulls in about $40-$60,000 a month in console and game sales. 

There is a place for both in the world, when the market demands so much for a game, should you really be expected to have to pay $1000 for a game just to experience it? That's fucking stupid. 

Emulation is great because it preserves these experiences and makes them accessible. Sure my store would prefer you bought it but most people already still are because that's how they prefer to play it. 

At the end of the day all anyone wants to do is sit down and enjoy an experience. That's all we can really ask for and who cares how you do it really.

EDIT: though I will say, the feeling of playing a $1000 game is pretty Neato.


----------



## DogeTrainer (Aug 31, 2016)

chavosaur said:


> I work with retro games for a living so maybe I can answer this a bit.
> 
> As a collector (almost ex collector now,) I can say that game collecting is entirely based on nostalgia and a tie to physicality. It's the same ago old argument that plagues the gaming scene today.
> 
> ...


^^This. But hey, I gotta say, while paying for it is fine, I'm the emu type, simply because it's easy, and not ridiculously priced.


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 31, 2016)

I forgot to mention earlier but I was doing retro before it was cool -- back when I was a snot nosed kid there were people selling whole sports bags stuffed with tape based games for £10 or so (just the right amount of money from my birthday cards). Did very well for myself there and probably played more of the C64 and spectrum library than I would have otherwise, and games in general. Took some stick for it actually on the playground but I had games to play when everybody else was replaying Aero the Acrobat for the 20th time.
My usual approach is "is the game something I consider good?", maybe if it has a really nice early example of a given mechanic. I don't care in the slightest about rarity or perceived value, though I am certainly not above one day maybe buying something to flip.



duffmmann said:


> Furthermore, any reviewer that is trying to make a name for themselves wants to be legit and not land in any hot water, if a game developer finds that a reviewer is illegally playing and reviewing a game of theirs via emulation so that they can monetize on that gameplay/review, they could find themselves in legal trouble.  Having said that last part, I'm not sure why that kind of person wouldn't just play those games on the virtual console if they are available, unless again they subscribe to my first point there.


Copyright does not apply so much in the case of reviews, certainly you can review a workprint of a film just fine (several fairly prominent reviewers doing as such for xmen origins). Now you might get blacklisted among PR firms and publishers/devs which is probably not great for some playing in reviews, though said same firms happily send stuff here so who knows (I guess some flavour of "is games related?" See user numbers and years of operation, see some existing stuff which does indeed look like a review and goes from there).
Equally reviewing is tedious at times so even if accuracy is there then I would still plump for easier cheats and savestates from better emulators.



Sonic Angel Knight said:


> Okay so it means someone must have created a history of it to consider it retro. If that nerd and that punk has a history of a game, is retro to them or anyone. I have a history of playing sonic 3 on a genesis, when it was available. So is retro to me to play it. Weather or not you play on real console as intended or on many compilation disc, (Sonic mega collection, gems collection, Ultimate megadrive collection, playstation network download, Virtual console, whatever) Means no difference besides your not playing on a genesis. I have lots of compliation games that are retro. the game itself is not much different than it was before. Mega man legacy collection for 3DS is 6 NES GAMES IN ONE FORMAT! IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU FIND ON THE 6 MEGAMAN GAMES ON VC! Only difference is your not in 1994, with a nes console with controller and using a non HD or better looking tv. Either way it can be played and that what matters.
> 
> That nerd and that punk do what they want to. If their point is relive NOSTALGIA, then retro gaming has nothing to do with it. NOSTALGIA is the act of doing something that gives you the sense of repeating what you once did. They are aiming for that. That nerd aim is to play a game exactly how he remembers playing it. So you can invision how bad they are (or good if he does play good ones) If you played castlevania 2 simon's quest or Teenage mutant ninja turtles in 1988, then is considered retro games. Is opinion based. Playing Castlevania on VC is retro. Depend how one feels about it is their nostalgia.
> 
> Console provides easy acess to playing games with simple insert game and plug controller and play.



I do find some of the things amusing when compared to other things. The PS2 hit in 2000 and the PS1 ticked along for another year or so. PS1 is retro according to some but if I tried calling a 2001 film retro I would be laughed at and a 2001 book being called retro would get me sectioned.

Emulation provides a simple open emulator, open game, pick up a controller and play. If the fiddling you are doing for your emulation amounts to any more than the hardware equivalent of "adjust the brightness on your TV" then you have gone wrong somewhere.

As for "way it was intended" then I meet a similar debate when people consider ROM hacks, and approaches to translation. My response to that is it is not some sacred immutable work, though nothing is, and was made on the clock by some people, thus I can improve it and don't necessarily have to handle it with reverence. The message may not carry so well to this instance but the spirit of it does.



Sonic Angel Knight said:


> Umm one still has to buy the games to back it up to play on emulators. Unless your not paranoid about piracy


Most people, especially those whose testicles dropped (or equivalent) before 2005 or so, spend no small amount of time laughing at the paranoid nature of those younger, especially when it comes to games. Said older type probably grew up with them *makes Amiga fan sign* which also makes it something like growing up with a big dog -- nowadays unless it is the size of a horse I don't really register it as big. That said much like second hand games for the longest time being completely acceptable before someone floated the notion of it being somehow wrong (I laughed at the time, still do actually, but I am surprised it got traction) I also laughed at the times the MPAA, RIAA and co sent people into schools to say piracy is wrong and apparently that sort of worked.

Edit. I know some people don't like the guy and in this case what he is saying is a bit meandering but I will link it anyway


----------



## LuigiXHero (Aug 31, 2016)

My  answer is really simple. There is no such thing as a perfect emulator therefore real hardware wins by default.


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 31, 2016)

Frame accurate is possible, also some people do things at the transistor level

It is at this point we probably would have to start talking about acceptable tolerances in the chips, something I await like I await a car crash (won't be pretty or painless but it will be mesmerising) when we start heading into FPGA driven emulation in the coming years.

Equally even without all that do you need perfect accuracy to enjoy a game? I doubt any dev really spent time honing things to millisecond level timings or anything (or if you prefer see all the bad PAL ports, if I play a bad PAL port have a played the game?) and mostly went with "ah it plays well enough for our testers/us".


----------



## gamesquest1 (Aug 31, 2016)

personally i really enjoy collecting games, i see it as a hobby, the same way some people have stamp collections, miniture train sets, go train spotting, go hiking, smoke, drink, drugs etc etc personally its the thrill of the chase i like about collecting, im not one of those rush out and blow all mah money to buy myself into the elite club types, but it prefer to try find bargains or do trades etc to build up my collection, i have even had some cool snes stuff from gbatemp members in exchange for hardmods (hence the signature)

i try not to worry about what other people get upto to pass their time, lets be honest there is some people in the world who do some pretty crappy stuff in their spare time....on a scale of passtimes....collecting games is on the mild side

that said, there is always repros,flashcards and emulators....so take your pick.


----------



## grossaffe (Aug 31, 2016)

Sliter said:


> nah we have n64 zelda OoT enough to build an actuall hyrule castle around here (lol)  but people still sell them por over R$(BRL) 200 only cart :/
> thia also happens with oot 3D (but brazilian eshop don't help... having it at the lauch price of R$150, used also go over 200 .... ) it's all because it's labeled " zelda" and aren't that rare ...
> 
> other I don't see much demand is Harvets moon 64... actually I found it by a good price but could not get it... :c
> ...


Still supply and demand.  The demand clearly outpaces the supply or else they wouldn't sell for those prices.  Basic economics.


----------



## duffmmann (Aug 31, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> Copyright does not apply so much in the case of reviews, certainly you can review a workprint of a film just fine (several fairly prominent reviewers doing as such for xmen origins). Now you might get blacklisted among PR firms and publishers/devs which is probably not great for some playing in reviews, though said same firms happily send stuff here so who knows (I guess some flavour of "is games related?" See user numbers and years of operation, see some existing stuff which does indeed look like a review and goes from there).
> Equally reviewing is tedious at times so even if accuracy is there then I would still plump for easier cheats and savestates from better emulators.



But you can't just be any no-name reviewer and claim, hey I'm a reviewer, so I don't have to pay for this "work print."  Go ahead and try and reach out to a studio saying that you're a reviewer without working for a credible publication and see if they'll send you a free copy of their movie to review, they're going to throw your letter in the trash.  Beyond that, as much as you claim that a rom is the same as a work print of a film for review purposes, it simply is legally not the same.  Again, you can easily be hit with legal trouble if you're reviewing a game you do not own or were not granted a copy of from the developer to review; and that absolutely applies to roms.  So my point still stands: "any reviewer that is trying to make a name for themselves wants to be legit and not land in any hot water, if a game developer finds that a reviewer is illegally playing and reviewing a game of theirs via emulation that they were not given as a review copy so that they can monetize on that gameplay/review, they could find themselves in legal trouble."


----------



## 8BitWonder (Aug 31, 2016)

I collect only my child-hood favorites on my consoles at the time. Simply because I loved playing them and would love to own the original versions again. Regardless that nearly every game has been re-released or can be emulated.


----------



## FAST6191 (Aug 31, 2016)

Similar concepts have arisen in courts with regards to journalism and the protecting of sources now anybody with a blog could well be a journalist of some flavour. "When does one become a "real" reviewer?" being a rather less tested in court problem, though I imagine that would probably come down to intent or a technicality. I would agree that a sensible PR department would not really want to grant someone without an audience of note, or maybe some really nice example work, a review copy/screening/whatever of an item, I am not sure what relevance it holds there though.

You can certainly be hit with trouble, whether the trouble amounts to anything is a different matter. To say nothing of getting a lawyer to stand in court for you, let alone a good one, being a noted expensive game and "bury 'em in fees" being a noted part of it all. By similar token I am not sure I would encourage it if you, the theoretical aspirational game reviewer in this scenario, wants to follow the traditional path into all of that.

The workprint stuff was more an example an a definitely "illegitimately obtained" work being a viable tool for reviewers. If that holds then a ROM, which could theoretically be legit (barring DMCA worries I guess), has an even better footing. Whether you might be able to retain the ROM (or play it for fun or whatever, possibly under the proviso you might need to revisit for a later play or are conducting a longer term... call it a critique) is less certain. By similar token I can review a TV or radio show, and where does the "borrowed the work off a mate" problem come into this?
Maybe the workprint stuff the times I saw it happen were deemed too much of a PR nightmare to even try to block and I am missing something, I am not sure I am though.

Monetisation at matters little in this, though I imagine it could well be the straw the broke the proverbial camel's back and might make some difference when it comes to deciding any damages, as critics have always been able to run their own ads as far as I know (maybe it was decided way back when, newspapers have had ads and reviews for the longest time though so nothing particularly relevant in the modern world that I am aware of).

Edit. Not really for the topic of the post but choice video
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023470/-It-s-Just-Emulation


----------



## Thomas83Lin (Sep 1, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> Frame accurate is possible, also some people do things at the transistor level
> 
> It is at this point we probably would have to start talking about acceptable tolerances in the chips, something I await like I await a car crash (won't be pretty or painless but it will be mesmerising) when we start heading into FPGA driven emulation in the coming years.
> 
> Equally even without all that do you need perfect accuracy to enjoy a game? I doubt any dev really spent time honing things to millisecond level timings or anything (or if you prefer see all the bad PAL ports, if I play a bad PAL port have a played the game?) and mostly went with "ah it plays well enough for our testers/us".



FPGA is definitely the future of emulation. check this out, FPGA is already in the works for the NES on the new Nt Mini, -   Analogue Nt Mini 
I'm just waiting to see how well it works before jumping on it.lol


----------



## astrangeone (Sep 1, 2016)

There's a local retro gaming store that I love and support with all my heart (but not cash, because every copy of a game they get their hands on is ridiculously overpriced).

I have a tiny SNES collection - mostly great games from the era, although I'm missing Super Mario RPG and Kirby Super Star (my mum sold the damn thing) and Chrono Trigger.  These games are worth turning on the old CRT television and slapping a cartridge in.

I also have most of the games as VC injects on my n3DS.  Do I play them as much?  Not really, TMNT gets some play time, but that's all...


----------



## Sliter (Sep 1, 2016)

one thing I wnat to do somehing is game a famicon and a nes and of couse, a collection of games xD but well it's far from my reality now and probably not being soon XD but even if I could just have an nice famiclone  to start with the games would be something :B (Turbogame can load both , but who told thats it's chep one in good condition?  lol)


----------



## RemixDeluxe (Sep 1, 2016)

I can't wait until this fad dies out so prices can be reasonable again.

Also if you aren't buying to collect you are doing it wrong. If you need "hardware" so badly you can buy everdrives and pay someone that deserves the money rather than greedy scalpers.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Sep 1, 2016)

for casual players i would suggest you get a system and a flashcard but tbh nes is fairly cheap (relatively speaking)to get main titles, and even the first few megaman games are in the £20-£30 range, compared to the snes where every megaman game is pretty much £100+ , the nes is a decent system to collect for.....but as i said a causal player would be better getting a flashcard, and people who want the feeling of owning all the megaman games (just as an example) may consider getting repro's of the more expensive titles


----------



## Sliter (Sep 1, 2016)

RemixDeluxe said:


> I can't wait until this fad dies out so prices can be reasonable again.
> 
> Also if you aren't buying to collect you are doing it wrong. If you need "hardware" so badly you can buy everdrives and pay someone that deserves the money rather than greedy scalpers.


not only collect, play it important :v to just show it's no need to be more than a housing with a label on it, a broken console...





This have no need t be working games and consoles.. even more becaus they gonna die there :v byebye screens if no use XD
(pffff western green )


----------



## gamesquest1 (Sep 1, 2016)

"get your empty housing here, i have hagane, little samson, nintendo world championships, all in glorious shelf ready condition with the PCB ripped out to save on postage costs "


----------



## RemixDeluxe (Sep 1, 2016)

Sliter said:


> not only collect, play it important :v to just show it's no need to be more than a housing with a label on it


You can emulate than if you need to play it. I won't tell you how to spend your money but I certainly wouldn't buy up 20+ year old games just to play them.


----------



## sarkwalvein (Sep 1, 2016)

RemixDeluxe said:


> You can emulate than if you need to play it. I won't tell you how to spend your money but I certainly wouldn't buy up 20+ year old games just to play them.


Why not?
People even buy beautiful old classic cars (that don't go quite well and waste fuel like shit), and they do so not only to "store them in a garage" but to ride them and feel them from time to time.
Why would this be different with old hardware?
You know, whatever floats your boat they say.
If you're turned on by playing with good old overpriced videogame hardware, then whataver suits you.

PS: And I mean it in a possitive way.


----------



## Sliter (Sep 1, 2016)

RemixDeluxe said:


> You can emulate than if you need to play it. I won't tell you how to spend your money but I certainly wouldn't buy up 20+ year old games just to play them.


if they arent over priced, why not ?   xD
well its personal anyway... one friend one time argued with me about collecting games, that it are bad, box and stuff serve to nothing and make poluition etc, that everything should be virtual content etc
but for himself, he collect manga (and don't like virtual content, only printed, no ebook for him XD), master and diligent to traditional art (now he is learning digital art, oh well), when I compared my desire for collecting games with his to collect manga the told me " but it's not the same thing" but well... it is...



gamesquest1 said:


> "get your empty housing here, i have hagane, little samson, nintendo world championships, all in glorious shelf ready condition with the PCB ripped out to save on postage costs "


if it's just to show in your wall, you want an actuall painting or one good printed replica?
To each their own ...

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



sarkwalvein said:


> If you're turned on by playing with good old overpriced videogame hardware, then whataver suits you.


I think the only problem there is being overpriced... this don't really have a reason for that ? they teall aboiut market, demand and offer but wel.. i'ts not coffe or bananas that if nature  bugs someway it can became something you can never find again XD
(even more because well done replicas /o/
Why they are taking too much to flahs n64 carts? I have some to recycle :v)


----------



## gamesquest1 (Sep 1, 2016)

i play my retro games....i collect them and play them, that said if i have some £1000 game i probably wouldnt be playing with it more than just to ! test it, and b have a good playthrough of it....just because 

repros are good to have if you mainly just want to play the game and look like you have mega bucks (same deal as fake designer clothes) i mean any collector worth a bag of peanuts would be able to tell the difference straight away, but for the desire to have a game sitting on a shelf i can take down and play they serve their purpose.....(so....lets play a game, which is fake? which is real?.....maybe they are all real.......or maybe they are all fake  place your bets )


Spoiler



small pic to make it a bit more difficult









Sliter said:


> I think the only problem there is being overpriced... this don't really have a reason for that ? they teall aboiut market, demand and offer but wel.. i'ts not coffe or bananas that if nature  bugs someway it can became something you can never find again XD
> (even more because well done replicas /o/
> Why they are taking too much to flahs n64 carts? I have some to recycle :v)


fake N64 games have already popped up now, so if you going to buy that bargain copy clayfighters sculpters cut......best have a gamebit on hand to crack it open


----------



## Sheimi (Sep 1, 2016)

I collect retro games because I want to replay it on original hardware with none of the extra bs.


----------



## FAST6191 (Sep 1, 2016)

RemixDeluxe said:


> I can't wait until this fad dies out so prices can be reasonable again.



You may be waiting a long time there. A bubble may burst, and I am not sure I would count this as a bubble, but it is probably never going to be like the 80s and 90s again, times where people generally just wanted their silly old toys out of their garage/attic as their kids were onto the new shiny (or maybe even passed them by like a pogo stick) and would sell it to you for pocket change. Beyond that as the populations of gamers grow and the supplies of games remain the same, or even slightly dwindle as such things are hardly indestructible, then it only takes a small fraction to want to "see where they came from" (which of course will continue to be promoted) or a few others to want to relieve their past to generate demand that strips supply. Beyond that even with the inflated prices it is still cheaper than playing with vehicles and other such hobbies in many cases.



gamesquest1 said:


> repros are good to have if you mainly just want to play the game and look like you have mega bucks (same deal as fake designer clothes) i mean any collector worth a bag of peanuts would be able to tell the difference straight away



I am still of the fuck repros opinion, even if they cleaned up their act a bit it is still direct, straight up, paid for piracy and for my money no different to selling a CD with ROMs on. What I more wanted to question was the designer clothes thing -- I do not have a high opinion of the materials usage and design quality of most fashion types (fashion is one of the world's oldest cons and all that) but they do occasionally operate above the baseline and make something of marginal interest, to that end having more sensibly priced versions of those can have some practical appeal.

On collectors then yeah right now it is easy enough, at least if I can see the PCB and have a reference, I reckon though I can make fakes that you will need a proper lab to test for, and we are probably not too far off having it profitable -- some of the higher feature size Chinese chip fabs are rapidly coming down in price for fairly modest runs, you find some donor boards or spend a bit longer also colour matching a PCB and you are done (give or take faking a silkscreen and maybe a laser etching). Depending upon the people doing it then the better test will be probably be checking their history as few will likely have properly aged and sufficiently used ebay accounts to sell things on, or may well have to pretend they are a lucky bastard and found a box of goodness from their dead uncle's old game store in the attic.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Sep 1, 2016)

FAST6191 said:


> You may be waiting a long time there. A bubble may burst, and I am not sure I would count this as a bubble, but it is probably never going to be like the 80s and 90s again, times where people generally just wanted their silly old toys out of their garage/attic as their kids were onto the new shiny (or maybe even passed them by like a pogo stick) and would sell it to you for pocket change. Beyond that as the populations of gamers grow and the supplies of games remain the same, or even slightly dwindle as such things are hardly indestructible, then it only takes a small fraction to want to "see where they came from" (which of course will continue to be promoted) or a few others to want to relieve their past to generate demand that strips supply. Beyond that even with the inflated prices it is still cheaper than playing with vehicles and other such hobbies in many cases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


tbh if it got to the point where someone made perfect repro's then the price of the game would plummet once the first few start to emerge, if people cannot tell the difference then it ruins the supply and demand equation as supply would be endless and as such the game would be as cheap as any other third rate game, as pretty much all the most expensive titles are midocre games that are expensive only for their scarcity, i cant see perfect replica's being viable for more than a 5 mins flood of the market before the market is ruined, and to make perfect replicas at a cheap price you would really be wanting to mass produce, so either your going to be trying to slip them into the market slowly but surely (so you have a big investment and would be waiting over a year or 2 to rake it back and hope that in the meantime someone else doesnt do the same but flood the market and cause the game to loose its value nearly instantly


----------



## Sliter (Sep 1, 2016)

gamesquest1 said:


> i
> 
> fake N64 games have already popped up now, so if you going to buy that bargain copy clayfighters sculpters cut......best have a gamebit on hand to crack it open


By this photho nah? I like to play it in person XD (actually I did it few times with friends hahah one got siad to discover is golden sun gba was a fake lol)
I know about fake n64 games, I've meet 2 or 3 in  my life XD but never someone that do it or a way to flash a rom and use on an original cart (and maybe give it save feature since the lot of not wanted n64 games or don't have save feature or use that memory pack thing xp), like they do a lot with snes and some gba carts ...
I would sue it for own use , I don't want to cheat anyone and the wya I'm lucky, I bet I would get caugth on the first sale  xD
but well.. an alternative to have one of these "rar overpriced games" and maybe even translations xp


----------



## FAST6191 (Sep 1, 2016)

Possibly. As I sit here I can't think of a similar situation for an intellectual property driven affair, much less what is effectively an illicit thing -- there has never been a great run of fake but rare CDs, LPs, books... that I am aware of. You get the occasional one for repair parts where a part gets hard to come by and then someone makes a viable alternative. There have also been some for earlier CDs where some people made not necessarily clones but very legit looking things for some of the shmups on the PC engine I think it was. edit Found it. http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/sapcomp1.html
That said at the same time you have made proper pressed discs for years and years at this point if you have but a few connections and a couple of grand to stump up, I wonder at some level if it was because the viable candidates lack the mind share of the more mainstream stuff.

On mass production then I am talking really cheap for some of these chips-- not 15 or 20 grand but maybe 2 grand for a decent run and only going down. You would need to put the cash in in the first place and I guess we share an opinion of the selling and con artist skills the average repro/fake cart maker exhibits (I can imagine the "10 loose copies of Bubble Bobble Part 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" listing too), however if prices are going to be what they are then you could make a decent return.


----------



## Sliter (Sep 1, 2016)

not sure if I got it right, but remind me the story of a guy that get a 3D printer and made "repro"(lol)  rhyno horns with keratin and sold very cheap on places that hino hunting was an issue, so the prices droped and the hunt comercy was gone 
(not sure if all of this was true)
If we do it with "rare games" we can have the same effect? hahha
About legit looking don't need much since we can use actuall parts like the housing itself and the circuit, just make it righ and a nice printer... uinles it an special edition full of stuff ... or you want to make it look old and stuff but nah I don't see why try to fool someone lol this would be better for people that want to play it, not for that " wow a rare game in nice price let get it and resell for  over nine thousand!"


----------



## FAST6191 (Sep 1, 2016)

I will have to look that up as I had not heard anything like that before, though it is not impossible bar people that want the horn for magical/some flavours of traditional "medicine". There is nothing poisonous, radioactive or otherwise particularly dangerous about rhino horn for it to be banned, it is more that you necessarily have to kill or at the very least seriously maim (you might be able to cut it off a live one but it is a tool which it uses) a rhino and they are rare enough as it is.
The problem with games has never been the difficulty in creating working copies, just that it goes against intellectual property law for some random to do it. I also don't know what Nintendo or Sega might say and they quite notably tried to force things to be licensed and that probably extended in perpetuity (or to the end of the copyright, which many speaking here will probably not live to see). Nintendo is typically held as being quite opposed to lots of things in this world, we already discussed some of their approaches to emulation (that GDC talk covering some of the efforts they went to when straight emulation would have been far easier) and this is hardly better.
If we could find some legitimate unlicensed game (illegitimate unlicensed is a thing, Nintendo famously went to court for that one and won in Atari Games Corp. v. Nintendo of America Inc, and Nintendo could frustrate that) then that might be possible to spin up another run however many years on this is, similarly for things like the C64 and atari which had no real restrictions and anybody could be a dev if they had the skills then licensed/sanctioned repros could be a thing.

Going for the murkier side of things then again I have no clue what would happen. The idea that prices would crash probably stems from the same logic as general economies destabilising/collapsing when you inject enough counterfeit money into it (it is why doing it as a state is possibly considered an act of war and it is otherwise treated very harshly when individuals do it). On top of that you would still have the first edition, low serial number, original print... stuff to contend with -- if you have ever seen someone turn up a game because it was in a grey box/a later version and not because they were doing a speedrun or something then same idea really.
I have never seen something similar though for anything like this. Parts for repair I have but parts for repair are less protected and it is usually quite doable to make a generic replacement, to say nothing of parts being consumable/breakable by nature.

The people that want to play it already have flash carts for the most part, though this would help make flash carts better if you can make the special chips rather than have to program them into a FPGA or something. Also if I am sitting there and I can make a fake cart for £20 and sell it to someone for £30 to play it, or I can do the proverbial rub a teabag on it and stick it in the oven to make it look old and then sell it to someone for a couple of hundred then I know what I am doing if I don't fear the law.


----------



## gamesquest1 (Sep 1, 2016)

honestly i doubt anyone would ever go to the lengths required to make perfect repro's there will always be some corner cut that will expose it (funnily enough its usually the badly handcut corners that are the first telltale sign), collectors are very territorial and don't take too kindly to anyone trying to pull a fast one, it would be one thing to make something that looks very close, but the resident experts would always find something to identify the fakes, be it a different pinout on the nand chip or trying to ID the chip on the board (not the markings, but hooking it up to a nand reader/writer setup and pulling the manufacturer/chip id from the chip etc) sure it wouldnt stop them being made, but the cat would be out the bag and all the real high bidders would exit the game unless the seller has proof of history, but once those things become the norm and people dont know who to trust then nobody would want to buy any of the expensive games out of fear of being conned unless they get it cheap enough to not really care i.e prices drop

well i honestly hope it never gets that bad i have seen a few recent stories of people using OTP EPROMS to make fake copies of little samson trying to pass them off as legit, but its still fairly obvious, its crazy the person was trying to sell it as legit, but had botch jobbed the label as it was cut by hand, i honestly feel the kind of people trying to pass them off as legit wouldn't have the knowledge or resources to actually pull off a truly impressive fake.


----------



## DaFixer (Sep 1, 2016)

I love retro games,consoles and home computers.
I don't really care on witch device I can play those NES,SNES,MD,NEOGEO,PSX games, if it looks good (scanline filter on) and play great i'm happy.
Some time ago I build a nice Retropie console loaded with games and use a PS3 or Wireless snes controller to play my games.
I works very well and i'm happy with, but it comes with old home computers. I like to use original hardware (like the C64,Amiga500,ZX Spectrum) becase for those machines I have more nostalgic feelings for those machines. The smell off the old hardware, the floppy's and disks,typing on those old keyboards and reading sound off the diskdrive. But for those machines is it very easy to play pirate games.
So most of my games are pirated, only I have a few original tape based games for the show. If you got a working C64/Amiga500 or ZX Spectrum you are ready to play all games you need, then you must buying new hardware to keep those machines alive in 2016 and connected to new led,tft screens


----------



## FAST6191 (Sep 1, 2016)

I still reckon I could have something that would take real chemical analysis to test for, and most of that is at least partially destructive -- I could fake the chemical glue that holds it together but at that point it is getting a bit ridiculous (and if I am that good I would probably fake wine instead and try to sell a £10 bottle of plonk for £10000 or something). At the same time are you going to allow me to lift the corner of the label to get a glue sample? Right now it is a hard game to do it and make a profit but the prices seriously are falling fast.

The pinout stuff is what I was mentioning as the world is changing here. All the older feature size chip processes are becoming available to us mere mortals now; nobody needs things that large in any kind of real industry, however they are fast enough and can pass enough power to be useful to someone (certainly enough to give a microcontroller a run for its money), and thus for as environmentally inconsiderate as China is they do a fine line in the reuse part of the big r's of recycling when it comes to industrial gear.
To that end it is not a different pinout, it is not a breakout/adapter board, not something you might be able to read a serial for and tell -- it is a real pin for pin, clock for clock same chip if you are good enough. NES mappers, SNES special chips, N64 CIC and the like might make this a bit harder, but not much.
I am surprised people hose up labels as much as they do, printing something as basic as a NES label has long been a solved issue for me (if nothing else do a search for die cutting machines)... maybe it is a bit too old school.

Again I too tend to find anybody truly capable of this is probably doing something better/more lucrative, however if you look at flash carts it was often more that someone made a baseline workable thing and then people ran with that. I never got my hands on it but there was a "R4 maker kit" doing the rounds in Hong Kong for not the most money -- it has the BOM, gerbers, pick and place listings, shell mouldings (or similar), and programming for some flavour of R4. Get something similar into the hands of someone that can do something about it for these old carts and the barrier to entry drops considerably.
No doubt once it comes to pass then someone will do half the job, maybe use a donor board from 4 years after it would have been made, or 3 years before it or something, but it is not waiting on a replicator before it happens. Though it would likely not be cost effective I could do it tomorrow (or in 5 weeks as I hate spice and chip design and would have to swear at it for ages first) for the sorts of money I would buy a car to do up and go to trips out with.


----------

