# Emulators VS actual hardware



## the_raging_snorlax (Feb 16, 2014)

So I used to be a person who insisted on playing games on actual hardware, but now I think that was an unwise way to spent my money and I should have stuck with emulators. I have three main reasons for this (the first one is the longest by far)

*1. Actual hardware requires modding to get right.*

I'll use the SNES and Mega Drive (or Genesis for you Americans) as my examples. Let's have a quick rundown on video signals and 50/60hz settings.

*RF* – This combines the video and audio signals into a single wire. Horrible quality.

*Composite* – If you had a 4th or 5th gen console you probably used this. One yellow wire for video and two separate red and white cables for audio. Bad quality.

*S-video* – A big improvement over composite. The best your going to get for retro consoles unless you live in Europe. Good quality.

*RGB* – Almost pixel perfect. Supported by a lot of retro consoles. The problem is most Australian and American TV's don't support it. Great quality.

*Component* – Same quality as RGB and quite commonly supported by displays across Australia and America. Unfortunately only 5th gen (PS2, Xbox, Gamecube) consoles and onwards support it. Great quality.

*50/60hz* – Hertz is a measurement of cycles per second. Games are designed to run at 60hz, however rewind time 20 years and most European and Australian TV's only supported 50hz. 50hz runs 17% slower than 60hz and has a higher resolution. That extra resolution becomes black borders at the top and bottom of the screen giving you a squished image.

The Mega Drive 1 has nice sounding audio, but a shitty Sony CXA 1145 video encoder. On top of that the system outputs RF composite and RGB. As mentioned above unless you live in Europe good luck finding a TV that supports RGB. For those who live elsewhere the solution is an s-video mod. If you know what your doing you'll get the job done within an hour. But if you want a REALLY nice looking picture you have to build a Sony CXA 1645 circuit which is a lot more complicated

You could choose a model two Mega drive. It has a good quality Sony CXA 1645 video encoder, but still needs modding to support s-video. The real problem here is the audio is (apparently) terrible. I've never played a model two myself so for this point I'm relying on what I've read from posts on various websites. There is a fix. It looks pretty damn time consuming. 

Time to discuss the SNES. I'm going to simplify the motherboard revisions to just 3. The standard, the 1-chip and the mini SNES. The standard and 1-chip SNES consoles support composite, s-video and RGB right out the box. Now look into this link, it compares the video quality between the standard and 1-chip consoles. The 1-chip consoles give a sharper picture that looks a lot more pleasing. The SNES Mini looks even better as explained by JimmyCrackCorn on the Assemblergames forums. The problem with the SNES Mini is cheap Nintendo wanted to save a few cents per console and didn't add the components for s-video and RGB output. Soldering time.

Now its time to get into 60hz modding. If you live in America or Japan you don't have to worry about this. Us who live in PAL land are not so lucky. A standard SNES has a very simple 60hz mod which requires one switch and one resistor. As mentioned previously they're not worth it. The 1-chip consoles require a slightly more complex mod where you have to solder in a second crystal. The Mega Drive 1 and 2 have a quick and simple 60hz mod if you are using RGB. If you can't run RGB then you need to do a colour fix mod.

I can go on about other systems, but I think I've said enough.

*2. Actual hardware is costs money.*

I'm using eBay prices in this discussion and including a power adapter and controllers. If you want a SNES Mini your looking at roughly $70 + postage. The Mega drive would cost about $40 + postage for you Americans or for us Aussies around $80. 60hz and composite and s-video mods aren't difficult and can be done by someone new to soldering. If you want to buy a pre-modded console expect to pay double. Then its time to get a flash cart. Retro flash carts aren't cheap. Marshallg's explains why this is the case. 



> *Why does this [the 64drive] cost more than the carts for, say, GBA?*
> Look inside one of those GBA cards sometime. You won't find much. They're mass produced in huge volume, with custom ASICs, and benefit from an inherently simple design. The 64drive is far more complex than these, both because of parts costs and efforts to provide a polished product. Trust me, I made it  The price is well justified.


 
*3. The Wii emulates 8 and 16 bit consoles almost perfectly.*

Chances are you already have a Wii. Since your on GBAtemp you probably already hacked it for the sake of USB loaders. The Wii has some great emulators on it and the average user isn't going to notice or care for the emulation glitches. It also supports 60hz and component cables right out the box. If you don't have a Wii you can always hook your PC up to your TV and this approach allows you can take advantage of high res textures on N64 games and HD Gamecube and Wii games.



With all this said actual hardware does have its advantages too. I still use a real N64 with s-video. Check out this article written by the author of bsnes (a 100% accurate SNES emulator). You can't forget the look and feel of the original hardware and controllers. The mods aren’t at all hard to perform, my point is they take time and effort. We can't forget the price either. An emulator on the other hand gives almost as good a result quickly and for free. To finish off this post I will say whichever way you choose to go a good game is still good.


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## DinohScene (Feb 16, 2014)

Meh.
Actual hardware wil always beat emulators with one thing.
Nostalgic feeling.

Emulators are great.
I <3 playing GBA/NES/SNES/Megadrive etc etc etc on various consoles/handhelds.
Recently been playing lots of GBA games on me PSP.

But they don't make it to the actual hardware.


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## Yepi69 (Feb 16, 2014)

Well, on the actual hardware you don't have to worry about lags or anything at all, so I guess its the best for me, even if it implies buying more stuff and/or modding it.

And emulators, well, emulators are fun but there's no perfect emulator, most games run almost perfect, some may run with slight lags and some don't run at all.

Also Emulators have slight advantages to the actual hardware:

Save States (some)
Better cheat system
Better multiplayer
And so on.


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## Nah3DS (Feb 16, 2014)

my rule is: just buy hardware that you can't emulate well


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## trumpet-205 (Feb 16, 2014)

Most retro gamers who want to game on actual console will mod their consoles and,
* Purchase professional upscaler such as XRGB-3, OR
* Purchase CRT screen capable of accepting RGB signal.

Hardwares themselves are not that expensive, when you considered their launch price and factor in inflation on modern time. What is expensive is additional peripheral, whether be the video processor, flashcart, etc.

As for 100% cycle accurate emulator, they aren't a lot of them. Even for PS1 the closest emulator to cycle accuracy, Xebra, has a lot of problems with a lot of games.


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## Thomas83Lin (Feb 16, 2014)

I've normally prefer actual hardware, like my Snes\Genesis I've modded them in hopes of better video output. Snes I've component modded which display's awesome on my old 32in crt tv. The Genesis didn't fare to well modding, I've S-video\composite modded it, but it has vertical lines on the S-video which I could only slightly remedy by adding a trim pot on the chroma iirc and composite is slightly blurry.
The only system I prefer a Emu to actual hardware is the NES, Only because I have a vendetta against it, So many times it just reset cause someone walked to hard across the floor.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 16, 2014)

Emulation can never replace the real hardware - even minor things like the occasional screen flicker or the shape of the controller matter when you want to get the genuine experience. Think back to Metal Gear Solid and the _"swap your controller port to defeat the boss"_ mechanic - it loses its charm once you play it on an emulator.

That's not to say that emulation is all wrong - it's just not the same as playing on the original hardware. It's something I resort to for convenience. When I have the actual system and the game I want to play, the real deal on an old CRT TV is my preferred way of playing retro stuff.


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## Catastrophic (Feb 17, 2014)

As far as 8-16 bit consoles go, emulation is almost perfect. Unless you like collecting, there's little reason to spend hundreds into finding the right hardware. The Wii classic controller is great and works fine for just about anything, or if you own a TV with either a HDMI or VGA output you can connect a PC to it, buy some controller converters and play through that. I do intend on getting a flashcart for my Famicom AV though.

N64 emulation is still quite flawed, which is why I got myself an Everdrive 64. Most PAL N64s are capable of outputting PAL60 video without mods. Some earlier NTSC models and only the French PAL model can be modded to output RGB as well.

Any 5th generation console is worth finding hardware for. FAT PS2s are super cheap and can be modded to play games that are either burned or on an IDE HDD. Gamecube games can be played on Wii through discs or HDD too. Xboxes can be softmodded to do plenty of things.


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## jalaneme (Feb 17, 2014)

hence tc it's the reason why i will always say emulation will always be better, it's way to costly to buy the hardware and games these days, plus with all the benefits emulation has with hdmi out, better sound options, filters, rom hacks and you can use wireless controllers too the positives outweigh the negatives.

on top of that, it's easier to boot the pc up and set the controllers up instead of getting the console out and finding the game cartridge, wires e.t.c



Catastrophic said:


> N64 emulation is still quite flawed, which is why I got myself an Everdrive 64. Most PAL N64s are capable of outputting PAL60 video without mods. Some earlier NTSC models and only the French PAL model can be modded to output RGB as well.
> 
> Any 5th generation console is worth finding hardware for. FAT PS2s are super cheap and can be modded to play games that are either burned or on an IDE HDD. Gamecube games can be played on Wii through discs or HDD too. Xboxes can be softmodded to do plenty of things.


 
i wouldn't say that, project 64 emulates quite well all the games played on it, the flashcart is expensive too.

ps2 emu and dolphin have a way to go before being perfect, but i would rather use them than to get my ps2 out and hook them up e.t.c i like the way dolphin upscales the gamecube games too if you set it up right that is, you need a lot of patience with dolphin and the ps2 emu.


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## sandytf (Feb 17, 2014)

There are USB adapters for nearly every game controller ever made. Some adapters even allow the use of legacy controllers directly on modern consoles.

I prefer emulating 8 and 16-bit systems to reduce the amount of required grinding (even though I still own all of the original systems). Save states are also a big benefit since I rarely play for more than 30 minutes at a time. I have a dedicated emulation computer connected to my tv, so once the game starts, it's generally difficult to tell the difference.


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## DarkAce0 (Feb 17, 2014)

Hardware all the way because it do the job right without glitches or slow down but emulator are good playing old games that you can't find anymore or way to over price because its "Rare ".


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## Foxi4 (Feb 17, 2014)

I like the whole _"expensive"_ argument when retro systems aren't actually expensive unless you're looking for some particularly rare ones. All the ones I own were purchased for anywhere between _"free"_ and $60, which is about as much as you'd pay for _*1*_ contemporary game.


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## Rydian (Feb 17, 2014)

Just checked out ebay and there's a lot of Sega Genesis entries for $30-$40.

But I have to play the devil's advocate here and say "if you have to attach a dollar sign to it, then it's more expensive than a free emulator download".


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## matpower (Feb 17, 2014)

For me, the best advantage of emulation is portability(If you are using a handheld system) or compactness(A single system takes less space than each system).
But if I had money, I would love to own each system I emulate and their games, because the feel of having the system there is just amazing.


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## bobmcjr (Feb 17, 2014)

Just did a comparison between PS3 RetroArch SNES and an actual SNES on an LED TV. While I understand that the actual hardware is as accurate as it gets and all that, it looks terrible on a modern TV. A combination of visual noise, interlacing issues, and deformed pixels make hardware in this case inferior. If you can get a proper CRT/video filtering boxes I guess the original hardware might look OK but in my opinion all that effort isn't worth it.


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## the_raging_snorlax (Feb 17, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> I like the whole _"expensive"_ argument when retro systems aren't actually expensive unless you're looking for some particularly rare ones. All the ones I own were purchased for anywhere between _"free"_ and $60, which is about as much as you'd pay for _*1*_ contemporary game.





Rydian said:


> Just checked out ebay and there's a lot of Sega Genesis entries for $30-$40.
> 
> But I have to play the devil's advocate here and say "if you have to attach a dollar sign to it, then it's more expensive than a free emulator download".


You guys have a point. Post edited. I still think it can be expensive if your buying more than one console. My Mega Drive was $75 inc. postage and my SNES mini was $100 inc. postage to Australia. The flash carts were about $80 each. That brings the total cost up to $335. Definately not cheap.


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## Thomas83Lin (Feb 17, 2014)

the_raging_snorlax said:


> You guys have a point. Post edited. I still think it can be expensive if your buying more than one console. My Mega Drive was $75 inc. postage and my SNES mini was $100 inc. postage to Australia. The flash carts were about $80 each. That brings the total cost up to $335. Definately not cheap.


Recently I bought 2 Sega Genesis from Ebay little over $11 each including shipping.
also bought a bundle of 2 Snes,2 N64,1 GC for alittle over $28 including shipping for the bundle.
If you don't care about discoloring or having to repair them which normally is just cleaning you can get them extremely cheap.


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## GHANMI (Feb 17, 2014)

More and more translators/hackers for the SNES/Genesis are now inserting all sorts of stuff to complicate playing their work on real hardware, the reason being those reproduction people taking their hard work and slapping it on a cartridge (often mutilating the original cartridge if it's an import exclusive, just for an "authentic" feel) then selling it as a "LOST ENGLISH VERSION" for highly inflated prices, then racking up profits.
I think there was one asking about how to remove intros added by translators on some forum.

Long story short, a lot of hackers are more or less siding with emulation rather than real hardware.


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## ResleyZ (Feb 17, 2014)

I prefer emulation over original hardware too, but that's because when using emulation, you aren't bound to a annoying controller (I hate the SNES controller, but love the Wii Classic Controller) and playing on higher resolutions. A great example is PPSSPP (PSP emulator). They handle high resolutions very well. Playing KH:BBS and Project Diva on a 56" screen with a 360 controller works pretty well, and looks great too. 

I'm currently playing Pokemon Yellow on Google Glass with a bluetooth keyboard, because it's Pokemon, on Google Glass, and who wouldn't want that?


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## Vipera (Feb 17, 2014)

First rule of gaming: being able to play the game has the priority on everything else.

I don't care if I am not using the original hardware, I'm still having fun with the game. And besides, sometimes emulators DO beat consoles, if we think that no one is able to play GBA games nowadays using an original Game Boy Advance unless they mod the screen.
I am happy with my 3DS emulating all the good ol' glories, together with my Jap Micro and my Master Race PC. I am not going to get my Sega Master System II from the basement whenever I feel like playing Cloud Master if I have so many other ways to play it.


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## Coto (Feb 17, 2014)

in games like mother 3 where the button timing on battles is needed, no emu can't beat old hardware 8)


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## matpower (Feb 17, 2014)

Vipera said:


> First rule of gaming: being able to play the game has the priority on everything else.
> 
> I don't care if I am not using the original hardware, I'm still having fun with the game. And besides, sometimes emulators DO beat consoles, if we think that no one is able to play GBA games nowadays using an original Game Boy Advance unless they mod the screen.
> I am happy with my 3DS emulating all the good ol' glories, together with my Jap Micro and my Master Race PC. I am not going to get my Sega Master System II from the basement whenever I feel like playing Cloud Master if I have so many other ways to play it.


GBA SP should fix that issue with the screen.
I think I am the only one that keeps his videogames on a drawer for easy access.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 17, 2014)

The only problems I have with original hardware, I'm too cheap for a CRT and I'm too cheap for a XRGB scaler, otherwise, retro games look pretty bad on LCD/Plasma TVs no matter what (240p looks really bad on a 1080p screen). On top of that, I have a hard time justifying the price of games based off of how long the game in question lasts. Like say a game lasts a few hours, but costs $50, I don't like paying that, but if the game is very lengthy, I've no issue. Mostly, I can't stand the way the pixels aren't filtered or "bleed" the way they did on CRTs back in the day, I liked that look to be honest. IIRC, you can even mod an Snes to accept RGB signals.

If I ever did buy a retro console, it'd be the RetroN5, which has HDMI support, save states and filters so the games don't look horrible on new TVs.


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## Vipera (Feb 17, 2014)

matpower said:


> GBA SP should fix that issue with the screen.
> I think I am the only one that keeps his videogames on a drawer for easy access.


What would be the point, though? The GBA SP isn't the original console designed for GBA games, it was the regular Game Boy Advance! 
Jokes aside, I also have my physical games near my desk. I just don't want to put consoles everywhere, especially the ones that are resting in the basement.


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## omgpwn666 (Feb 17, 2014)

I prefer my emulator, I can run my favorite old games on my PC without switching wires back and forth.


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## garbanzox (Feb 18, 2014)

I ran emulators for along time, and have several USB adapters for classic controllers. But a few months ago I dug out some of my old consoles - NES, SNES, and N64 - and I bought flash cards for them. It's great playing on real hardware, but honestly, I'm not sure if it was a good idea or not. I might just end up selling my EverDrive carts and going back to emulating on my Wii. It's a lot less stuff to plug in to my AVR!


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## the_randomizer (Feb 18, 2014)

garbanzox said:


> I ran emulators for along time, and have several USB adapters for classic controllers. But a few months ago I dug out some of my old consoles - NES, SNES, and N64 - and I bought flash cards for them. It's great playing on real hardware, but honestly, I'm not sure if it was a good idea or not. I might just end up selling my EverDrive carts and going back to emulating on my Wii. It's a lot less stuff to plug in to my AVR!


 

The Wii does have some mighty fine emulators (which are better then the VC in every way)


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## Foxi4 (Feb 18, 2014)

I won't lie, when I want the _"retro"_ experience then the original hardware trumps any kind of emulation, but when I just want to play the game, emulation is incredibly handy due to its convenience, cross-platform availability and the capacity to actually enhance the games in one way or another which is especially important with early polygon-based games that could burn your eyes with sheer _"pixelosis"_.

I've been playing Resident Evil 2 with my girlfriend recently using ePSXe and I have to say, I quite enjoy playing it at an increased internal resolution rather than upscaled - the models are very crisp now and I like it a lot. It's not the same as sitting down infront of a CRT telly and holding a Dual Shock, but it's still a lot of fun.


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## kristianity77 (Feb 18, 2014)

Ive gotten loads into in old consoles since I picked up the JXD S7800.  For the first time I can play near perfect 8 bit, 16 bit and PS1 all from one device.  Im amazed actually that android emulation of the PS1 is just as good as PSP emulation of it was.  I've recently discovered PPSSPP on android as well which if you opt to display PSP games natively on the screen, run at full speed.  Add things like Mame into the mix and Neo Geo.  Emulation is fantastic.


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## cdoty (Feb 18, 2014)

the_raging_snorlax said:


> *The Wii emulates 8 and 16 bit consoles almost perfectly.*


 
Some times I feel I spend more time pulling out and putting away a system that I spend playing.

Wii, and more recently the Ouya, have become my preferred way to play 8/16 bit games. The Ouya has the advantage of being able to drop a game in dropbox, and grab it on the Ouya. The Wii has the advantage of having a controller similar to the SNES.


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## DaFixer (Feb 18, 2014)

Missing the floppy drive sound of the 1541 (C64) and Amiga 500.
And the real sound of the SID chip(C64), loading sound from old tape's (C64/ZX Spectrum)
Feel and Sound of old keyboard's.

But for 8/16/32 bit consoles/handhelds mosly I use emulators on my Wii and PC.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 18, 2014)

cdoty said:


> Some times I feel I spend more time pulling out and putting away a system that I spend playing.
> 
> Wii, and more recently the Ouya, have become my preferred way to play 8/16 bit games. The Ouya has the advantage of being able to drop a game in dropbox, and grab it on the Ouya. The Wii has the advantage of having a controller similar to the SNES.


 

Speaking of which, there's an actual Classic Controller that uses a Super Famicom controller shell, they sell them on Amazon it seems


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## Deleted-236924 (Feb 18, 2014)

Emulators also allow you to keep backups of your save files in an extremely convenient manner.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 18, 2014)

Pingouin7 said:


> Emulators also allow you to keep backups of your save files in an extremely convenient manner.


 

And I refuse to solder on SRAM batteries or take apart the cartridges, too much work. Emulation is far more convenient.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 18, 2014)

Coto said:


> in games like mother 3 where the button timing on battles is needed, no emu can't beat old hardware 8)


Don't be silly. Everything depends on the accuracy of the emulator, not the hardware used. There _are_ ways to nail CPU timing just fine.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 18, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> Don't be silly. Everything depends on the accuracy of the emulator, not the hardware used. There _are_ ways to nail CPU timing just fine.


 

Accuracy is vital, though it can be costly for performance and requirements if too much emphasis is on cycle accuracy, there must be a balance IMHO  Bsnes is an example of what not to do, no Snes emulator should require a Core 2 Duo or Core i3 to achieve full speed with Super FX, S-DD1, etc emulation.

Snes9x comes to mind, it's not 100% accurate, but emulation-wise, it's the second best in terms of overally accuracy and compatibility.


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## Deleted-236924 (Feb 18, 2014)

the_randomizer said:


> And I refuse to solder on SRAM batteries or take apart the cartridges, too much work. Emulation is far more convenient.


 
Indeed, but then you can get flashcards such as the Everdrive and be able to enjoy the actual hardware without having to worry about that. (AFAIK it does have a save battery, but saves get written to SD card or something like that. I don't have one, but I assume there must be a way to get the save files written to SD card even if the internal battery runs dry, such as pressing the reset button on the system or soft resetting directly back to the main menu if possible.)

This is why the EZ-Flash IV is <3


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## Foxi4 (Feb 18, 2014)

the_randomizer said:


> Accuracy is vital, though it can be costly for performance and requirements if too much emphasis is on cycle accuracy, there must be a balance IMHO  Bsnes is an example of what not to do, no Snes emulator should require a Core 2 Duo or Core i3 to achieve full speed with Super FX, S-DD1, etc emulation.
> 
> Snes9x comes to mind, it's not 100% accurate, but emulation-wise, it's the second best in terms of overally accuracy and compatibility.


The aim of the BSNES project was achieving 100% accuracy, not good performance. BSNES _(arguably)_ reached full accuracy as the emulator now emulates each and every single SNES chip in existence and no doubt future versions _(if there will be any)_ will improve in the performance area of things from now on.


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## Coto (Feb 18, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> Don't be silly. Everything depends on the accuracy of the emulator, not the hardware used. There _are_ ways to nail CPU timing just fine.


wrong, games depending on VI will cause weird sound effects, or broken music, or de-sync.

for such there's just the real hardware, or an insanely fast comp


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## Deleted-236924 (Feb 18, 2014)

BSNES has already changed name to Higan and also supports GB, GBC, GBA and NES along with SNES. 

I couldn't say if it emulates all of those with maximum accuracy, but I would assume it does.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 18, 2014)

Coto said:


> wrong, games depending on VI will cause weird sound effects, or broken music, or de-sync.
> 
> for such there's just the real hardware, *or an insanely fast comp*


So... _not_ wrong, because it can clearly be achieved by software means. _;O;_


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## Zeliga (Feb 18, 2014)

I only play on emulators to try games out before I buy them on ebay.


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## tbgtbg (Feb 18, 2014)

the_raging_snorlax said:


> *Component* – *Same quality as RGB* and quite commonly supported by displays across Australia and America. Unfortunately only 5th gen (PS2, Xbox, Gamecube) consoles and onwards support it. Great quality.



If you go up to 480p or HD resolutions (which admittedly not all games in that gen supported, and often in European versions even less supported it) component would be better quality, not the same, since RGB doesn't go that high.



> The Mega Drive 1 has nice sounding audio, but a shitty Sony CXA 1145 video encoder. On top of that the system outputs RF and RGB.
> ...
> You could choose a model two Mega drive. It has a good quality Sony CXA 1645 video encoder, but still needs modding to support composite and s-video.



I don't know where you got the idea that the Genesis doesn't support composite, but it's 100% wrong. All models support composite, no modding needed. S-video does need a mod, that is true.


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## Coto (Feb 18, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> So... _not_ wrong, because it can clearly be achieved by software means. _;O;_


Dream with your 100% accurate sega saturn, someday it may happen ;o;

meanwhile, i was reading delroth pdfs (along r4300i  interpreter), and the software solutions at hand are extremely demanding..

I may have a vague idea how to take timer interrupts from CPU, GPU and audio, and sync them in one thread (event occur), rather the known method from VI retrace.


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## Foxi4 (Feb 18, 2014)

Coto said:


> Dream with your 100% accurate sega saturn, someday it may happen ;o;


Here's for hoping it'll happen before I'm on my deathbed... then again, I don't have a reason to desire one - I have a Saturn. _;O;_


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## the_raging_snorlax (Feb 18, 2014)

tbgtbg said:


> I don't know where you got the idea that the Genesis doesn't support composite, but it's 100% wrong. All models support composite, no modding needed. S-video does need a mod, that is true.


I have two Mega Drive 1's at home. They support RF and RGB only. There would not be Youtube videos explaining how to do a composite mod if the system already supported it.


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## Psionic Roshambo (Feb 18, 2014)

I kind of sit in both camps on this one, I like to collect the old games and manuals and magazines as a collector. As a pure gamer yes a Wii with emulation is just loads more convenient for me.  So my solution? I do both  

No need to unpack 20 boxes find and untangle cables, find a spare power outlet (LOL good luck with that one...) ok ok find something that can be unplugged while I play the machine... plus as was mentioned in the OP emulation is really really good on the Wii. 

Cheat codes is the one area where having actual hardware is still best. GameGenie or GameShark codes work best on the actual hardware. I have found the emulators are hit and miss on codes. Some work fine and some do not seem to do anything at all. 

One final plus side for emulation.... No power glove or Uforce or Activator.... lol


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## tbgtbg (Feb 18, 2014)

the_raging_snorlax said:


> I have two Mega Drive 1's at home. They support RF and RGB only. There would not be Youtube videos explaining how to do a composite mod if the system already supported it.




Yeah, well, I have a Genesis 1 and a Genesis 2 and both are completely unmodded and both support composite.

I'm not sitting through a 15 min video, but I'd wager that this "composite" mod is just to add composite jacks to the system, so you can use regular RCA cables instead of Sega's A/V cables. 

If you have the Sega cables, you can use composite without any mods. This is a fact. 



Model 1 uses a different cable than model 2, but the same cable as a Master System.


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## Thomas83Lin (Feb 18, 2014)

Yes it supports composite and mono sound through the Din plug. looking at pin outs anyways. I modded mine for both Comp and S-video. no special cables needed


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## Foxi4 (Feb 18, 2014)

The Model 1 Genesis has an RF plug and an 8-pin plug for Composite video, RGB and Mono audio with Stereo audio available from the front headphone jack, the Model 2 on the other hand has a RF plug and a 9-pin plug for Composite/RGB and Stereo sound.

Here's the plug pin-outs:









To squeeze out S-Video out of a Genesis, modifications _are_ required because S-Video uses Chroma and Luma, not Red/Green/Blue or Composite. As such, you have to extract those signals from the graphics chip itself as they are not provided on the standard plug.

*RF* - typical radio frequency plug for old televisions, video and audio jumbled together
*Composite* - yellow plug for video, colours composited together, separate plugs for audio
*Component* - three separate plugs for YPbPr _(Luma, Difference between Luma and Blue, Difference between Luma and Red)_ with additional plugs for audio
*S-Video* - one four-pin plug with Chroma, Luma, C-Ground and Y-Ground
*RGB* - 21-pin SCART connector, colours are separate


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## Plstic (Feb 18, 2014)

I only use one emulator and that's GroovyMAME because Arcade PCBs are waaaay to expensive. Plus I have it hooked up to a Sony PVM because groovy mame supports the real aspect ratios of the games.


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## the_raging_snorlax (Feb 19, 2014)

tbgtbg said:


> Yeah, well, I have a Genesis 1 and a Genesis 2 and both are completely unmodded and both support composite.
> 
> I'm not sitting through a 15 min video, but I'd wager that this "composite" mod is just to add composite jacks to the system, so you can use regular RCA cables instead of Sega's A/V cables.
> 
> ...



It seems I was wrong. I had no idea these cables exist. I thought the sega AV jack was for RGB only which I can't use so I never gave it much attention. The mod I linked to adds a composite jack to the system just as you guessed.


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## garbanzox (Feb 19, 2014)

This thread has got me thinking about ditching my consoles and going back to emulation. Does anyone know a good place where I can sell some gently used EverDrive flash carts?


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## the_randomizer (Feb 19, 2014)

garbanzox said:


> This thread has got me thinking about ditching my consoles and going back to emulation. Does anyone know a good place where I can sell some gently used EverDrive flash carts?


 

You can always sell them to me  Maybe the Snes one  I don't want to pay the $100 or whatever the full price for the Snes flashcart is.


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## Dhampir (Feb 20, 2014)

I enjoy playing on the real hardware when it's around, but emulation is so convenient and I've been involved in the scene for so many years that it's just the way I prefer to game now.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 20, 2014)

Pingouin7 said:


> BSNES has already changed name to Higan and also supports GB, GBC, GBA and NES along with SNES.
> 
> I couldn't say if it emulates all of those with maximum accuracy, but I would assume it does.


 

Snes is spot on, the other emulators aren't fully cycle-accurate; you're better off getting standalone emulators for the other consoles emulated in Higan, not to mention you need BIOS files for the other systems and special chips, which I don't agree with. The system requirements for the other emulated systems is a bit uh, exorbitant.


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## Fishaman P (Feb 24, 2014)

jalaneme said:


> project 64 emulates quite well all the games played on it


You and I need to have a talk in that alley over there.


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## Chary (Feb 24, 2014)

I much prefer the original console for playing a game. Although, emulating has nice benefits, such as Dolphin's up scaling, or being able to use save states. It's a matter of preference at this point.


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## trumpet-205 (Feb 24, 2014)

the_randomizer said:


> Accuracy is vital, though it can be costly for performance and requirements if too much emphasis is on cycle accuracy, there must be a balance IMHO  Bsnes is an example of what not to do, no Snes emulator should require a Core 2 Duo or Core i3 to achieve full speed with Super FX, S-DD1, etc emulation.


Higan (formerly) bsnes, can achieve full speed on accuracy profile on post-2010 good desktop hardware. Many people haven't upgraded their PC in a long time, or use laptop instead.

Also, Higan served two purposes: to emulate system 100% accurately and to serve as an accurate documention of system inner working. Higan itself is literally SNES's version of Gray's Anatomy. Recently byuu also achieved cycle accuracy of GB/GBC PPU on his own (older bsnes version byuu borrowed codes from Gambatte). If you are an accuracy nerd know that Higan didn't go all the way with accuracy. it could technically go with circuit accuracy. No longer emulating system, you are emulating circuits.

If you want balance, use Snes9x. It is pretty good; even DSP core is written by byuu.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 24, 2014)

trumpet-205 said:


> Higan (formerly) bsnes, can achieve full speed on accuracy profile on post-2010 good desktop hardware. Many people haven't upgraded their PC in a long time, or use laptop instead.
> 
> Also, Higan served two purposes: to emulate system 100% accurately and to serve as an accurate documention of system inner working. Higan itself is literally SNES's version of Gray's Anatomy. Recently byuu also achieved cycle accuracy of GB/GBC PPU on his own (older bsnes version byuu borrowed codes from Gambatte). If you are an accuracy nerd know that Higan didn't go all the way with accuracy. it could technically go with circuit accuracy. No longer emulating system, you are emulating circuits.
> 
> If you want balance, use Snes9x. It is pretty good; even DSP core is written by byuu.


 

I'm actually biased towards Snes9x because, yes, I do care about accuracy, especially in the audio department, but what I don't like is the fact I hear my CPU fan kicking up audibly when I run Higan, it worries me just how much of the Core i5 it's using. But I also like balanced performance as well. All the games I run work on Snes9x perfectly as far as I can tell, and I love the Wii port on RetroArch, no frame skipping whatsoever. The S-SMP/DSP core was written by Blargg and Byuu, which I believe is cycle accurate and spot on with the real Snes hardware, Squaresoft games sound especially immaculate to my sensitive ears  I don't mind accuracy, but, I have my limits to the accuracy<->performance balance  I mean, my system can run it just fine, I just don't know how much strain it's putting on the CPU is all. Snes9x isn't as resource-intensive.  Genesis Plus GX is also very accurate, even past Kega Fusion, it's my favorite Genesis/Megadrive emulator.


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## jalaneme (Feb 24, 2014)

Catastrophic said:


> N64 emulation is still quite flawed, which is why I got myself an Everdrive 64. Most PAL N64s are capable of outputting PAL60 video without mods. Some earlier NTSC models and only the French PAL model can be modded to output RGB as well.


 

i wouldn't say that, project 64 emulates quite well all the games played on it, the flashcart is expensive too.





bobmcjr said:


> Just did a comparison between PS3 RetroArch SNES and an actual SNES on an LED TV. While I understand that the actual hardware is as accurate as it gets and all that, it looks terrible on a modern TV. A combination of visual noise, interlacing issues, and deformed pixels make hardware in this case inferior. If you can get a proper CRT/video filtering boxes I guess the original hardware might look OK but in my opinion all that effort isn't worth it.


 
there are tons of filters to make the image much more sharper, i find that on original hardware the colours looked washed out and grainy, nes games don't look as sharp and look blurry, but with all the emulator settings you can make a nes game look as good as a "hd remake" (that's pushing it a bit but that's just a comparison lol)


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## Foxi4 (Feb 24, 2014)

jalaneme said:


> i wouldn't say that, project 64 emulates quite well all the games played on it, the flashcart is expensive too.


Some people are fine with paying big bucks for the genuine experience.


> there are tons of filters to make the image much more sharper, i find that on original hardware the colours looked washed out and grainy, nes games don't look as sharp and look blurry, but with all the emulator settings you can make a nes game look as good as a "hd remake" (that's pushing it a bit but that's just a comparison lol)


...meaning _"arse"_ and _"not as intended"_.  I used to occasionally use filters when playing SNES games to give them a nice look... but then I grew up, because you're only 13 once in your life, and I realized that they look perfectly fine in their original form. In fact, that's the whole point - it gives them the retro feel. If the colours on-screen were washed-out then perhaps they were meant to look that way or there was some problem with your setup - maybe the cables were poor, maybe the TV's settings weren't just right etc.


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## RodrigoDavy (Feb 24, 2014)

Although people consider snes9x good enough I have to wonder. I played Pilotwings in the snes9x and found it too difficult. Years later I played on an actual snes and the game seemed more playable. The controls were far more responsive and missions less impossible. I think it's more than input lag, you see, in the game demo mode when running in snes9x the computer controlled plane will crash and the game will glitch and reset while in the snes the plane succesfully lands.



jalaneme said:


> i wouldn't say that, project 64 emulates quite well all the games played on it, the flashcart is expensive too.


Only the more popular games work well. Try playing something less popular and you'll see lots of glitches many of them making games entirely unplayable.


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## the_randomizer (Feb 24, 2014)

Snes games were not meant for 1920 x 1080 TVs, Snes games were at best, 256 x 244 or 240p, and it ain't pretty when scaled by newer TVs, unless you have an external device that scales it properly.


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## matpower (Feb 24, 2014)

I refuse to use filters, it takes the retro experience IMO.
I prefer to take a while and configure my TV/PC to make it look like the real deal on an older TV.


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## overdriver (Jun 4, 2014)

this is great thread. only thing I want to add is.. If you take an example of playing Super Mario World: playing on real console gives you input lag-free control.
With any SNES emulator(including Wii-vc, Wii-Snes9X, all PC emu(BSNES, etc)) has enough input delay. I didn't notice this until I play Super Mario world in real SNES. It does not matter for some other games like RPG, or slow face game.but it matters the most with action games like SMW.
because of this.. I am digging info regarding groovyMAME(FYI)


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## DSAndi (Jun 11, 2014)

I prefer mostly Emulators now. Old hardware will be faulty some day or you cant connect it to some other needed device or just look bad on new big screen.
I still have a lot retro consoles but most time i prfer to play the games on my PC.
Most of the time they look better on PC. In some cases you can also enhance the picture quality with a PC means the PC will do a higher resolution of the game that the actual hardware is not capable of ( like PSX).
Or antialaising improves some N64 games.
The only thing i do sometimes is to get me adaptors for Joypads from the old hardware. Most of em are obsolent but in some cases original joypads/sticks are better to control the old games.
I only use actual hardware if i cant emulate the game well on PC.
Its also a space problem, all that old hardware uses up a lot space.


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## javanni9972 (Jul 8, 2014)

I prefer the actual hardware then an emulator but don't get me wrong I like playing games on an emulator but its just not what I prefer. But a lot of people agree with me especially if you like to collect them here are some up's and downs about hardware over emulation:

Good:
No lag
Multiplayer
Great for collecting
Accessories ( zappers,cheat devices,rumble pack,ect.)
Better experience

Bad:
Costs a lot
Can get roms right away while you most of the time have to order online and wait
Instant cheats available on emulators
Sometimes carts or disks don't work
Hardware can break

So these are my up's and downs of hardware vs. Emulators but no matter what I will still prefer the actual hardware then emulators


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## Pleng (Jul 11, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> Some people are fine with paying big bucks for the genuine experience.
> ...meaning _"arse"_ and _"not as intended"_.  I used to occasionally use filters when playing SNES games to give them a nice look... but then I grew up, because you're only 13 once in your life, and I realized that they look perfectly fine in their original form.


 
No... no they don't!

Seriously... nobody can look back on the consoles of the past and say "You know the one thing that really hasn't improved with technology? Graphics", can they? Maybe it's just me.... I mean to get that 'total retro' look I'd need to find a TV with an image already burned into it, then emulate a "magic line" of green to cover most of the screen to try and alleviate the burn-in.

When you have the option to make the games from your past look more beautiful why would you turn that down. "Oh that's not how it was supposed to look"... who knows _what_ visual equipment the games developers did or didn't have at their disposal?

Do you also run PSX emulators at their native resolution, for example, just so you can get that retro, jaggy feel... because "that's how it was supposed to look"? Because that _wasn't_ how it was supposed to look.... that's how it _had_ to look because of technical limitations of the time!


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## WiiCube_2013 (Jul 11, 2014)

DinohScene said:


> Meh.
> Actual hardware wil always beat emulators with one thing.
> Nostalgic feeling.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah I too been playing SNES/GBA on PSP but it just doesn't feel natural or authentic, still fun though.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 11, 2014)

Pleng said:


> No... no they don't!
> 
> Seriously... nobody can look back on the consoles of the past and say "You know the one thing that really hasn't improved with technology? Graphics", can they? Maybe it's just me.... I mean to get that 'total retro' look I'd need to find a TV with an image already burned into it, then emulate a "magic line" of green to cover most of the screen to try and alleviate the burn-in.
> 
> ...


Filters often wash out the image and make it look like a gloopy mess. They look the way they look because that's the way they were designed - certain effects in old games are *designed* to use the shortcomings of old technology such as pixel bleeding to mix colours or create the illusion of transparency which cannot be recreated in an upscaled HD setting. Unless the game is 3D in which case upping the native resolution can only improve the quality, you can make things worse by meddling in an emulator. That, and it's entirely a matter of taste. To me, emulating with heavy filtering and post-processing makes the games look awful.


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## Pleng (Jul 12, 2014)

Foxi4 said:


> Filters often wash out the image and make it look like a gloopy mess.  To me, emulating with heavy filtering and post-processing makes the games look awful.


 
How do filters "wash-out" the image? I've never experienced anything like this. Ever.



> They look the way they look because that's the way they were designed - certain effects in old games are *designed* to use the shortcomings of old technology such as pixel bleeding to mix colours or create the illusion of transparency which cannot be recreated in an upscaled HD setting.


 
Fair enough, so in this case you'd need a CRT TV as well as the original hardware to recreate a crappy transparency effect in a small part of the game, at the cost of clearer, smoother image throughout the entire rest of the game. Seems like a lot of expense and time to go to simply to recreate an effect that really isn't that impressive anyway.


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## Foxi4 (Jul 12, 2014)

Like I said, it's a matter of taste. Rendering 3D at a higher resolution to combat jaggies is one thing, resizing 2D into a populated mess and filtering the shit out of it is another.


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## elmoemo (Jul 12, 2014)

jalaneme said:


> i wouldn't say that, project 64 emulates quite well all the games played on it, the flashcart is expensive too.
> 
> there are tons of filters to make the image much more sharper, i find that on original hardware the colours looked washed out and grainy, nes games don't look as sharp and look blurry, but with all the emulator settings you can make a nes game look as good as a "hd remake" (that's pushing it a bit but that's just a comparison lol)


Agreed about the emulators being flawed, not all games as some run fine but the games I want to play don't run proper on PC/Xbox/PSP/wii emulators just want to play donkey Kong lol
I have an n64 and really want an ever drive but not at the minute as want a current gen console more lol


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## Kayot (Jul 12, 2014)

I think the point of emulation isn't to get something for free. I think emulation is a way to preserve the past indefinitely. As time goes by, emulators get better and like Higan should strive for a pure accuracy mode. I only collect games for systems with a decent emulator. If there isn't a decent emulator, I only grab a few A titles and never bother preserving the whole archive. Why bother when the hardware WILL disappear in the next hundred years?


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## SlCKB0Y (Sep 3, 2014)

trumpet-205 said:


> Also, Higan served two purposes: to emulate system 100% accurately


 
Well... nothing is 100%


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## matpower (Sep 3, 2014)

SlCKB0Y said:


> Well... nothing is 100%


AFAIK in tech, something can be 100%.


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## emmanu888 (Sep 3, 2014)

Although i love playing on the actual hardware, it can take up a lot of space on shelf and in the power sockets. Looking at you old Sega consoles.
Master System, Genesis takes up too much space in the power sockets, Dreamcast and Saturn not so much. Then there's Nintendo with the perfect size for the power cord.
And finally Playstation consoles, fat PS1 and PS2 have the perfect power cord, slim PS1 has the horrid box plug that takes up too much space, slim PS2 has the perfect power supply.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 3, 2014)

I use emulators the sake of convenience and due to lack of shelf space to have my consoles. That, and older consoles look horrible on most modern displays without using expensive scalers.


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## SlCKB0Y (Sep 4, 2014)

matpower said:


> AFAIK in tech, something can be 100%.



Not in emulation. Higan is the most accurate software *approximation* of snes hardware we have but it is still not 100% and never can be. Yes I'm being literal and a little pedantic but I hate people using absolutes like always, never, perfect and 100%


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## Foxi4 (Sep 4, 2014)

SlCKB0Y said:


> Not in emulation. Higan is the most accurate software *approximation* of snes hardware we have but it is still not 100% and never can be. Yes I'm being literal and a little pedantic but I hate people using absolutes like always, never, perfect and 100%


By that logic, nothing is ever perfect. Even two IC's that came off the same assembly line are not 100% identical.

You _can_ make a 100% accurate 1:1 representation of a physical circuit in software, down to the level of individual logic gates, there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't do it, the only question is how much resources would it require to support 100% accurate emulation.


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## FAST6191 (Sep 4, 2014)

Circuits in software? Already done


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## Foxi4 (Sep 4, 2014)

FAST6191 said:


> Circuits in software? Already done


Informative as always.


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## trumpet-205 (Sep 4, 2014)

SlCKB0Y said:


> Not in emulation. Higan is the most accurate software *approximation* of snes hardware we have but it is still not 100% and never can be. Yes I'm being literal and a little pedantic but I hate people using absolutes like always, never, perfect and 100%


In information technology 100% does exist. Hell one time pad is the only 100% secure encryption scheme. Is it practical in the real world? No. But it has been proven that it is 100% secure.

Now for argument sake you could say that the only way to achieve 100% accuracy in emulation is to do circuit emulation. Is it practical? No. While higan doesn't do circuit emulation, its behavior and operation are no different than a real SNES. Calling it 100% accurate is good enough to me and to many people.

100% perfect DOES exist in real world. Don't get too hung up on it.


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## duffmmann (Sep 4, 2014)

Actual hardware will always be the best way to play the games from that system.  Having said that, I love emulation of the old systems on the  Wii, they are effective and get the job done, and I frankly don't mind the small issues that I may notice (often I wont even notice them because I'm just not looking for them), so in the end I'm left with the same exact level of a fun experience I probably would have had on the real hardware.  So its hard for me to really assert the need for certain older systems.  But in the end, it all comes down to personal preference, if you hate emulators and must play on the real hardware, who am I to say that you're an idiot for not seeing how they often are almost the exact same experience?  To each their own.


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## SlCKB0Y (Sep 4, 2014)

trumpet-205 said:


> In information technology 100% does exist. Hell one time pad is the only 100% secure encryption scheme. Is it practical in the real world? No. But it has been proven that it is 100% secure.
> 
> Now for argument sake you could say that the only way to achieve 100% accuracy in emulation is to do circuit emulation. Is it practical? No. While higan doesn't do circuit emulation, its behavior and operation are no different than a real SNES. Calling it 100% accurate is good enough to me and to many people.
> 
> 100% perfect DOES exist in real world. Don't get too hung up on it.



Circuit level emulation is approaching 100% but is still not there. Why is this so hard to grasp? Is it because what I'm saying has a philosophical slant to it?

And "100% perfect" is the antithesis to what is found in the real world. It's completely unobtainable in any meaningful sense.

And I don't care about things that are theoretically 100% secure. Real world implementations never are.


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## Foxi4 (Sep 4, 2014)

I'd like to remind you that what you call the "real world" representation is based on a 100% digital blueprint punched into a robot which assembles the IC. You can go philosophical all you want - you can make a digital representation of any circuit, regardless of its complexity. In fact, many legacy CPU components are completely virtualized these days because putting them physically on the die as ALU's is not space-efficient - x86 is a prime example of that.


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## SoupaFace (Sep 4, 2014)

My mentality is that I don't just want to play good games from the past that I missed the first time, I want the *best* experience I can get playing those good games through emulation while still using the controller that game was designed to use.

The Emulation scene on PC *surprise surprise* is fucking incredible in all the options people like myself have available to us in terms of console / game support and peripheral support etc.

Sadly I'm one of those people that can easily tell the difference between a 3D game being displayed at 720p (1080i) or 1080p on a TV that's 6-8 feet away from me and while thats not necessarily a bad thing, I tend to make it a bad thing. 

So if I have the option of playing LoZ: Skyward Sword at native resolution (even with an s-video signal) on my CRT tv or 1080p on my LED tv that has low input/display lag for a modern-day HDTV, you'd better believe I'm playing that game on the LED tv.

Sure, I'm spoiled, but I'm also employed and live at home, both of those things have allowed me to afford a $750 Emulation PC rig and throw $100+ toward game controller adapters for the PC so that I can be in video game (pre-2012) bliss.

Seriously though, Super Mario Sunshine / Xenoblade Chronicles in 1080p or seeing Shadow of the Collosus actually run at 60fps on a big screen is what made _aaaaaall_ that money I spent worth it for me.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 4, 2014)

I just use Dolphin for Wii and Gamecube for 1080p goodness, Snes9x for Snes, still very accurate but not as CPU intensive as Higan, Xbox 360 controller since emulators and keyboards give me hand cramps


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## SoupaFace (Sep 4, 2014)

This is only even an issue once I've completed every game in a given video game series: It is a little difficult to choose what game to play when I'm staring at a list of 20+ games from 7 different consoles (technically only 8 dreamcast games and 4 sega saturn games), all of those games having received critical praise or just happen to be in a series of games that one title of which in that series _had_ received praise.

Looking through a physical stack of games, each with enticing cover art, for some reason makes me feel less overwhelmed than a digital list consisting of just video game titles.

It's the lack of effort that partially drew me to PC emulation yet that same lack of effort is also a little less motiving at the same time; as in I feel less like playing Dino Crisis just viewing it as an iso file that I simply have to click to begin playing versus taking a disk of Dino Crisis  of the shelf and making the effort to put the disk in my PC in order to start killing shit. This however is the only flaw in PC emulation I've found that has any real significance to me personally.


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## SlCKB0Y (Sep 4, 2014)

the_randomizer said:


> I just use Dolphin for Wii and Gamecube for 1080p goodness, Snes9x for Snes, still very accurate but not as CPU intensive as Higan, Xbox 360 controller since emulators and keyboards give me hand cramps



This is by far the best snes controller I have used and is extremely close to the original...
http://www.amazon.com/Buffalo-Classic-USB-Gamepad-PC/dp/B002B9XB0E

Their attention to detail is fantastic and it's a very high quality product.


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## the_randomizer (Sep 5, 2014)

SlCKB0Y said:


> This is by far the best snes controller I have used and is extremely close to the original...
> http://www.amazon.com/Buffalo-Classic-USB-Gamepad-PC/dp/B002B9XB0E
> 
> Their attention to detail is fantastic and it's a very high quality product.


 

Never heard of that, actually, pretty dang cool!


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